Open Discussion #30
Continued from Open Discussion #29
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FLDS TEXAS 
From #29:
“What gets me about the posters on Brooke’s blog is the refusal to admit any crimes have been committed, and the refusal to admit that it all boils down to Warren Jeffs and his One Man Rule.
Even after Brooke posts Warren’s own words re: deliberately breaking the law, they still whine about how the FLDS is being victimized and persecuted.”
Anon E Mouse
I was one of the first to acknowledge that it appears crimes actually occurred. To be fair I gave a sympathetic nod to claims of victimization and persecution but I haven’t used those arguments myself other then violations of Constitutional rights in investigating crimes.
Al
There havent been any Constitutional violations, no UN violations, no Genocide.
There have been 5 convictions though, with more coming.
Alinusara, if I really cared, I’d dig up quotes from you proving that you have used those arguments. But it’s really not worth my time.
Good thought for the day:
“There are three types of people in this world,” he said. “People who make things happen, there are people who watch things happen, and there are people who just wonder what happened.
– Captain James Lovell (former NASA astronaut and Apollo 13 commander)
Alinsura,, your what they call a “Waffler”. You say yes crimes were committed, then you throw in a “BUT”…….
I don’t know lots of Big words, nor do I have an extensive vocabulary as some here, but I do have common sense Alinusara, I know Bull [expletive deleted] when I see it or hear it. And that’s all you bring to this conversation.
FLDS T, You have to understand that the ‘Chosen Ones’ are righteous, therefore, beyond error, apology or providing any explanation(s) to mere ‘Gentiles’ that are EVIL. In their Theocracy of Smithland the ‘Gentile’ is the enemy, evildoer, sinner, son of Satan, those of ‘outer darkness’, child of perdition, whores of Babylon, etc.
They display the the deeply ingrained doctrine of PMS which gives rise to them being always in the right and never need to own up to any wrong-doing. [PMS is an acronym meaning ‘Persecuted Mormon Syndrome’], whereby the facts are ignored, the evidence is challenged and the righteous position is upheld, no matter the implausibility of the position. “Keep Sweet” mantra is prerequisite to live in the ‘Lands of Refuge’ where the truth is never required and only lies are given free reign.
CaJim,
Your PMS Acronym – I love it!
Alinsura,, your what they call a “Waffler”. You say yes crimes were committed, then you throw in a “BUT”…….
======================================================
Sure why not? That’s why we have checks and balances in the justice system. Benjamin Franklin himself once said he rather a 100 go free then one innocent made to suffer.
But you want the guilty to go free, Alin, not the innocent. You spend a great deal of your spare time arguing that the guilty should be freed on technicalities of procedure. A hoax is when someone yells fire and there is no fire. In this case, someone yelled rape and there was lots of it.
Al
Which of the 5 convicted FLDS do you consider innocent?
Al
Which of the 5 convicted FLDS do you consider innocent?
===============================================
None of them.
But you want the guilty to go free, Alin, not the innocent.
=========================================================
Yes Betty. That’s exactly what Ben said.
No, I don’t think that’s what Ben said or meant. He meant that if there is doubt about guilt, it is better to let them go free. Not that if they are caught red handed and covered head to toe in solid forensic evidence then you should let them go to rape again because the original reason to be interested in them at all was suspect.
Can we give Alin a soapbox? I really want to know:
1) Does he really think the FLDS defendants should go free?
2) If so, why? If you feel their rights were violated – How? Which rights?
Normally I wouldn’t go so far but since he admits they’re all guilty, I’m curious.
Oh, then there was Abraham Lincoln who called Slavery and Polygamy “Twin relics of Barbarism” and the State of Utah had to make it illegal before they would be admitted into the Union.
Now we have some 40,000 pligs running amok there, thumbing their nose at the nation, and giving Utah a reputation that apparently it deserves.
Must be those “Freedom from a Rozita” rights!
“But you want the guilty to go free, Alin, not the innocent.
=========================================================
Yes Betty. That’s exactly what Ben said.”
No, Al, it isn’t. Name one innocent person who would be “freed” if these guilty men were allowed to walk.
You seem to just like the “I’d rather see 100 guilty men go free” part but the addendum is that they are free only so than an innocent might be free. I see no unjustly accused, or prosecuted, or convicted innocents here to go free.
Yeah, sure. Go for it, Alin. Answer Ron’s questions.
No, Al, it isn’t. Name one innocent person who would be “freed” if these guilty men were allowed to walk.
==============================================
Umm Rebeckah what Ben said had nothing to do with an innocent being freed. To quote. It’s better for a hundred guilty to go free then an innocent made to suffer.
1) Does he really think the FLDS defendants should go free?
=======================================================
Nah! Be given a new trial maybe.
2) If so, why? If you feel their rights were violated – How? Which rights?
===============================================
The 4th amendment. I thought I was pretty clear about that.
Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.
Benjamin Franklin
See, Ron, you thought that the troll was going to give you cogent argument. But, he’s had plenty of time and all he comes up with is snarky comments and vague references to the Constitution.
Al,
Too bad Goldstien didnt get your memo – but the fact is, they took it to trial and the SW were found legal.
As for “Another trial”, they can appeal it. Thats expected. With 30 (count em THIRTY) assorted trials and legal maneuvers they currently have going, the last thing they need is to start them over when they lose.
They need to man up and say “Hey, check my smile, I did it on purpose and will do it again if you let me free!”
Oh wait, I think that was the message Leroy sent the Jury…
1) Does he really think the FLDS defendants should go free?
=======================================================
Nah! Be given a new trial maybe.
Sure! New trials and stiffer sentences. I’m in agreement with that notion.
The 4th amendment. I thought I was pretty clear about that.
———
While it’s been clear from Day 1 that you want the FLDS child molesters to walk free, your reasons for WHY they should get away with it keep changing.
I see that, like a good FLDSer, you’ve changed your tune. They used to claim “there were no underage marriages” or “the marriages weren’t consummated” or “the victims didn’t complain so it’s not abuse” or “deer do it” etc etc.
Now it appears they’ve pinned all their hopes on somehow discrediting the search warrants.
Well to be fair ellie I didn’t see a whole lot of pregnant minors at first Ellie. Adult women who was once pregnant minors, but none lately. Two cases recently came up that showed yes there was at least two pregnant minors.
Sure. I can handle a few child molestors go free as long as I never see in my lifetime such a hamfisted investigation. Apparently, you disagree and I support your right to do so.
Some of your arguments Ellie I have been sympathetic too but I have never used myself. I figure the law is the law and must be applied equally to members of the Flds faith as well as to law enforcement.
See, I don’t think there was anything wrong with the investigation. I personally think that the warrants will stand up to review by another judge. You would have to prove that the officers were grossly negligent or deliberately dishonest and I don’t think that’s the case.
Maybe you should go read the explaintion in full of the 4th Amendment Alinusara?
Read exactly what “Probable Cause” is how it pertains to the 4th amendment.
For example, IF a police officer suspects your driving a car Illegally, or that the car doesn’t belong to you, they can stop you, check your driver’s license, registration, etc,, EVEN If it turns out the car belongs to you, and you have a valid driver’s licesnse, they still have to right to check you and your car!
Whats “Hamfisted” about it?
Where Warren kicked dozens of men out? Hamfisted like that?
Or when he took the children from their parents as a test to the law and the parents themselves, hamfisted like that!?
Some of your arguments Ellie I have been sympathetic too but I have never used myself.
—–
Well, that’s simply not true but, as others have said, no one has the time and patience to search through all your past posts on this site to dig up the evidence.
As for you “seeing” a whole lot of pregnant minors, are you saying you were there at the time?
I would love to hear your explanation for what was ‘hamfisted’ about the investigation as I suspect it will be as full of holes as your other arguments and an absolute HOOT to read.
Alin said: Well to be fair ellie I didn’t see a whole lot of pregnant minors at first Ellie. Adult women who was once pregnant minors, but none lately.
So,because these women are adults now, but were pregnant as minors….they don’t count as being victims? It’s ok now cuz they’re over 18?
Oh yeah…and they never complained about it, therefore no victim, no crime? I forget who first said that little chestnut…
Where are the girls who were taken OFF the ranch severeal days before the raid, who were pregnant Alinusara????
Yes, good thing we have Alin here to explain to us how it works. Apparently if you can hide statutory rape crimes long enough, until the victim hits the age of majority, then it’s like the crime never happened at all! It’s a special, FLDS-friendly version of the statute of limitations.
I guess they should just drop the Elizabeth Smart case then — she’s an adult now too.
Suppose that means we need to let Phillip Garrido go too.
Dang, just when we thought we had him!
Brian Mitchell must be pleased to know he has people backing him up!
puke
Keep in mind she doesn’t mean that across the board that 100 people who are guilty go free less that one innocent be convicted, she/he wants to be able to pick and choose those 100 people. Well I’m sorry there are plenty of people who don’t get convicted because the evidence is too weak, that is not the case here (where the evidence is overwhelming). Sorry just because you don’t like the outcome doesn’t make it not a crime, the FLDS knew what the law was when they moved to Texas they just chose to disregard it.
Well, in Alin’s defense the discussion did start with his admission that the FLDS defendants are guilty.
That’s a good point, Ron. I suppose it’s what a therapist would call “progress.”
Cross posted in two threads:
Your morning Alexa update:
This site continues to make significantly large upward moves – it is now in the 523 thousand range.
To give you an idea just how large this move is – before this experiment began the site started in the 650 thousand range and had a slump to the 680 thousand range. So about a 160 thousand movement or 160/680 = 23.5% change.
Ron, that’s cool! I have no problem with the status bar version. I’m willing to continue the experiment beyond April 1st. What say you? Or anyone else?
The only thing I’m sorry for: status bar Alexa didn’t ask me any of those demographic questions when I installed it, soooo… this site isn’t favored with the preeminent stats I might have lent it. ppphhhhbbbtt!!
(Whoa!… excuse me while I wipe the coffee off of my monitor.)
I will continue with the toolbar as well.
Ron, did you take a look at the US stats? The 523,369 is the “Alexa” rank. The Traffic Rank in US for this site is 94,161, the Traffic Rank in US for the “comparing” site is 94,334.
I thought Alexa was notoriously inaccurate. I would trust the US site rankings rather than Alexa.
CaJim,
Your PMS Acronym – I love it!
……………..
And here I thought that PMS stood for “Putting Up with Men’s Shit.”
Betty: See, I don’t think there was anything wrong with the investigation. I personally think that the warrants will stand up to review by another judge. You would have to prove that the officers were grossly negligent or deliberately dishonest and I don’t think that’s the case.
……………………………
Law Enforcement got a tip that underage girls were being molested at the YFZ Ranch, and when they got there, golly gee what did they find?
Pregnant minors.
Law Enforcement got a tip that underage girls were being molested at the YFZ Ranch, and when they got there, golly gee what did they find?
Pregnant minors.
———
….and a bunch of adults trying to hinder the investigation.
pathgirl,
You said:
“the FLDS knew what the law was when they moved to Texas they just chose to disregard it.”
I dont think that is accurate. From what we see of their lifestyle and faith, they dont just choose to do things – they are told what to do. They were told they HAD to lie and cover up and be willing to break the law and not only that – they were told that it was all part of their salvation and heavenly reward or lack thereof. AND they were in danger of losing their families, their children and contact with their families. That is heavy stuff. The leadership, as in the top Poobah is responsible for all this. And it is a big load to shoulder. If he were really the “perfect” leader his followers claim, he would again admit being a fraud and causing horrible trouble and make it easier on all these people before all their funds are depleted. I sure dont see them as horribly mean, dirty ole men. I see them as just obeying the rules of their leader in a very closed society/religion and now having to face the law of the land. The only pompous man Ive noticed in all the media coverage has been Willie. And even back when the mothers were being interviewed at the YFZ ranch, it seemed obvious that they were not comfortable answering questions in an evasive way. They appeared to really want to speak positively and truthfully but couldnt. How can we compare these folks to the glassy eyed followers of the cults in the news? The only glassy eyed one is their imprisoned leader.
WSJ has a continuity problem. At one point in his dictations he discusses marrying younger girls to bring the Government down on him/them. Yet, when a minor is having trouble with labor he decides not to take her to the hospital because it might cause trouble with the Government.
I think it’s convenient to solely blame him, however had these people not been psychologically groomed to accept this type of behavior, it wouldn’t have happened.
My opinion is the entire mores of the FLDS are at fault.
WSJ has a continuity problem. At one point in his dictations he discusses marrying younger girls to bring the Government down on him/them. Yet, when a minor is having trouble with labor he decides not to take her to the hospital because it might cause trouble with the Government.
——-
I think his decisions are quite internally consistent if you ponder them.
WSJ was gung-ho about standing up to the government when it meant he got a 13-year-old ‘wife’. But he didn’t want to dare risk a run-in with the law when a scared, pregnant minor needed medical attention.
It speaks to the way WSJ values his needs versus the needs of others (especially females).
‘Eldorado Success’ edition of today recounts additional information presented to the Jury during the “bad acts” hearing. This newspaper reports,”Attorney General’s investigator Wesley Hensley then testified that ‘Priesthood Records’ obtained at the YFZ Ranch indicate that [Merril] Leroy Jessop had left his legal wife, and two other wives, and their children, behind in Short Creek when he came to Texas”. So Merril Leroy jumped at Warren Jeffs’ invitation to become a ‘Templebuilder’, even if it meant his First Wife and other two wives and children were not allowed to come to the YFZ Ranch. What a exemplary Priesthood husband and father for the families left behind.
Additionally, Warren Jeffs celestial wed him to three newer wives, one named Sharon Jeffs, making Merril Leroy her third spiritual husband and now she is in need of another ‘reassignment’.
Merril Leroy’s ‘Child Bride’ was granted as a reward bride for his work, on building the Temple, in a triple bridal ceremony that included his twelve year old sister being married to FBI Fugitive Warren Jeffs. No resident at the YFZ Ranch has ever come forward to witness on behalf of the Prosecutions twelve San Angelo Grand Jury indictments, four of which have now resulted in felony convictions.
Anonymous said this on March 25, 2010 at 1:13 PM
SAID “How can we compare these folks to the glassy eyed followers of the cults in the news?”
Have you ever witness a scene where FLDS men are asked if they would die for the prophet? I have…it is on tape.
I disagree with Anonymous on March 25, 2010 at 1:13 PM. Lying for their lord is part and parcel of their game.
ellie, I agree, his world is a very narcissistic one, no question.
I was responding to anonymous above responding to pathgirl, and I agree with her. They knew they were breaking the law. Sheriff Doran made a point to go out to the ranch and inform them of the statues.
I guess it comes down to whether the issue is under age child brides or the practice of polygamy itself. I think a lot of people try to lay the marriage of under age brides at WSJ’s feet. The problem with that, as I see it, is once he’s gone the problem’s gone.
I maintain the problem is polygamy, and the way that children are ‘scripted’ from birth to accept it abuses.
Annonymous wants us to see it from their point of view. I understand that.
My point is they knew they were breaking the law. They chose to follow the law of their Prophet. Their Prophet shows inconsistencies, not only specifically in the marry-a-twelve-year-old department vs refusal to transport a minor in labor with distress, but in his ‘trainings’ as well.
Maybe they are conditioned to blindly obey. To anonymous, I say that’s the problem. They are as glassy eyed as any other cult.
caJIM – I read my copy of the Success yesterday. Randy Mankin does a superb job.
I got a kick out of the narrative of Judge Walther’s sinus headache, and her trying subliminally send messages to the jury. That’s the kind of details we miss from Matt Waller. To say Hurley jumped the shark is an understatement.
GrannyToad – You nailed it exactly.
I totally disagree with “Anonymous said this on March 25, 2010 at 1:13 PM” assessment. I don’t care who your grand “poobah” is the FLDS criminals (the men that raped the little girls and the parents, both MOTHER and father) are all adults and as such are accountable for their own actions. They CHOOSE their lifestyle and “faith”, just because you want to see them as innocent little LAMB’s being led to slaughter does not make it so. They choose to let the “poobah” tell them what to do, they choose to rape little girls, they choose to pimp their little girls out to old men, the choose to be “horribly mean, dirty ole men” and extremely abusive “mothers”. When the mothers were being interviews, it did not bother them one bit to be evasive, the only thing that bothered them was being asked direct questions which they CHOSE
Lying for their lord is a trait that started with Joseph Smith.
Lucifer….father of lies……
(sorry hit return before I was finished) …they CHOSE not to answer the questions, they CHOSE to LIE. They are NOT innocent little LAMBS, anonymous.
Lying for their lord is part and parcel of their game.
——–
The FLDS belief system seems seems to require absolute obedience to the Prophet as God’s mouthpiece. And the individuals at YFZ were hand-picked by Warren for their exemplary obedience.
I don’t think it excuses their behavior in any way. If they want to be considered like adults, they must accept responsibility for their adult decisions.
What kind of weird kind of up-side-down worldview leads to the thinking that 12-year-old girls are mature enough to be wives and mothers, but 35+ year old men shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions?
If the FLDS men are free of guilt for their rapes, then the soldiers at Auschwitz were free of guilt of their murders, because they surely would have been jailed or worse if they had failed to obey orders. In every extreme persecution (and I do believe that the FLDS is a persecution of women), some people have chosen to risk their lives, even to lose their lives in order to show that you do not have to chose evil.
The priesthood men have constructed an elaborate belief system that says that God can tell them to do acts, upon order of the Prophet, which God Himself has specifically forbidden in other circumstances. The devil does not tell you to perform acts of compassionate selflessness and God does not tell you to perform acts of cruelty and violence. The New Testament is very clear about that; how they can profess to follow it is beyond me.
Betty is correct.
The belief structure of this cult is so divergent from New Testament teaching that I would not even call them Christian.
I rather think it’s just malleable rules of the games they play.
I would estimate that about 50% of their teachings directly contradict the Bible.
Hey check the Alexa stats… amazing..
I put on the toolbar now too. 😉
Betty, I have to agree with what you said. I recall Bill M. comparing the treatment of the YFZ residents to Hitler’s treatment of the Jews. It must have been a terrible thing to be under the leadership of Hitler, but his soldiers were guilty and responsible for their own actions. So, I guess any of the flds followers who break the law and are involved with abuse are guilty and have to be responsible for their actions. It just appears that they dont realize what they are doing is wrong. I guess they have been indoctrinated for so long and have adopted the persecution complex and right to do whatever to hide their practices. It is just very hard to understand how anyone can follow such leadership. And I mean including Joseph Smith himself. For the life of me, I cannot understand how his religion has grown as it has.
Attorney General’s investigator Wesley Hensley then testified that ‘Priesthood Records’ obtained at the YFZ Ranch indicate that [Merril] Leroy Jessop had left his legal wife, and two other wives, and their children, behind in Short Creek when he came to Texas.
——–
That’s just cold. And, sadly, he’s FAR from the only FLDS member to abandon children and/or spouses at Warren’s bidding.
Zavenda (Young) Jessop comes to mind, for one.
‘He told me to do it’ is not an acceptable excuse when it comes to breaking the law. Yes the people at the YFZ have been indoctrinated with the party line ‘the prophet is the mouth of God’ but every person has God given free will. If your leader asked you to murder someone because God wanted that person dead, you have still committed a crime. You and your ‘leader’ will still be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. Sheriff Doran told them the laws of the state of Texas, they broke the law and unless they are declared not competent to stand trial they will be held accountable for their actions.
Anonymous said :”…And I mean including Joseph Smith himself. For the life of me, I cannot understand how his religion has grown as it has.”
I cannot imagine being a woman and believing in that religion.
Talk about ego dystonic belief systems.
Your “salvation” and your relationship with God is based on your marital status, and the number of children you have.
You need a “priesthood holder” to redeem you.
Why would any woman stay in that faith?
Of course, I have similar thoughts on Islam.
My brother converted to Mormonism in high school, he found a nurturing family environment through the LDS church (something we didn’t have at home). He served a 2 year mission in the Ukraine & is now married to a very strong smart beautiful woman (also LDS) And they have 4 of the best behaved sweetest kids. My sister-in-law actually took on Jerry Fallwell’s son in Lynchburg Va and caused a 2 year delay in construction of a new shopping complex because it would negatively impact local traffic and make it unsafe for the local children. I don’t talk religion with them, that is their business not mine. I am proud that my brother was able to become a wonderful, involved and attentive father (something he didn’t learn from our natal family). The joke around my household is that we were raised by wolves. I am glad that they are happy and I let it go at that. We jest that the way we individually adapted to a poor home environment is that I became and alcoholic anorexic & my brother became Mormon, the funny thing is that it allowed us each to find God in our own way, him with the LDS me through AA.
I have an LDS member in my family too.
I love and respect her – but I think she is blissfully unaware of some of their doctrines, which is why she remains in the church.
My sister-in-law is actually also a convert who joined along with her family while in high school so I assume that she knows the doctrine. We don’t talk religion but we respect each others choices. Instead of perpetuating the abuse and neglect we were raised with my brother has become a wonderful father, and for that I thank the LDS.
I know I would be a sucky mom, so I work in public health, volunteer and have (along with my husband) raised some very spoiled (formerly) stray cats.
I like you already, pathgirl.
Zavenda (Young) Jessop comes to mind, for one.
———————————————–
Given what Carolyn said about Leroy, Janetta, Heather and the 3rd wife and their children were better off left behind that going to that prison they call the YFZ.
Sharon had been married 2 times before and had children who were assigned to Leroy. That’s crap. Those kids have a father who loves them and they were just snatched from him at the whim of a single deluded man who thinks he is God. I have news for him, he’s not and I hope he rots in prison.
pathgirl, i always thought i would be a sucky mom, but i’ve got a great son who thinks i’m a great mom. i still have motherhood issues, but he and i work on them together.
Anon 1:13 They appeared to really want to speak positively and truthfully but couldnt. How can we compare these folks to the glassy eyed followers of the cults in the news? The only glassy eyed one is their imprisoned leader.
………………………………..
The FLDS are not mindless robots who are programed to do only what their leader tells them – proof of that is that plenty of people have had the courage and smarts to leave.
I would estimate that about 50% of their teachings directly contradict the Bible.
…………………..
Starting with Jesus’ own words that there is no marriage in Heaven.
My hat is off to you Anon. but I would rather think I would be a sucky mom and not have children than to have them and confirm it.
The FLDS Church belief system is that women and children are the literal property/chattel of the ‘Priesthood’ husband. The Priesthood members are the property of the Prophet. Being ‘Celestial’ wed is strictly a religious sealing and is not to be construed as a secular or civil marriage? See Michael Emacks legal brief to dismiss his charge of bigamy. Using ‘Gentile’ laws to evade Justice is just one of the varied methods that the FLDS Theocracy members will employ to ignore this EVIL world and follow their perfect prophet.
A Federal Task Force is wanting to address and confront this underworld crime wave that has formed ‘Lands of Refuge’/Gulags and defy American Democracy practices. They claim to want to just be left alone which translates to allowing them to perpetuate their covert and criminal culture.
Yes they know that they are breaking the law but they hold their Celestial Laws above ‘Gentile’ Law & Order. If you don’t grasp the gravity of their brand of anarchy you will never understand their criminal mindset.
I always thought I’d be a great mom, but couldn’t have children. But somehow I managed to have step children and grandchildren. I’ve raised more than my share of teenagers someone else dumped. Sometimes life works out in ways you never could have imagined.
ah, Betty, God is infinitely wise, and oxytocin is an inspirational hormone…
Anon 1:13
“You said:
“the FLDS knew what the law was when they moved to Texas they just chose to disregard it.”
“I dont think that is accurate. From what we see of their lifestyle and faith, they dont just choose to do things – they are told what to do”
===========================
So if the prophet told them to jump off a cliff into the sea they should do that?
“Jonestown Syndrome” is no excuse!
Humans are gifted with a brain and common sense.
Use it or Lose it.
WOW
Those Alexis numbers really moved! In what, two weeks?
And free will. A tenet of the Christian faith.
God is infinitely wise, and oxytocin is an inspirational hormone…
Yes, but the real question is whether God created oxytocin or oxytocin created God.
I think God sprinkled a little LSD here and there to keep things intersting….
Ron,
I said oxytocin, not oxycontin….check your post!
Whats the difference? I missed the joke.
Was that a play on Anabodiacs?
oxytocin is a naturally occurring hormone which stimulates pair bonding and maternal feelings of love for infants…. oxycontin is a controlled substance and potential drug of abuse…
HEY
No fair!
Your dealing with lay people here! Oxycontin gets all the press!
Yes it does Stamp, but you need to learn a little bit more about oxytocin.
Here you go…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin
Honesty seems to be a dying thing anymore. Dont see it much in the legal system. Being simply and totally truthful and forthright is really not encouraged. Do defense attorneys encourage truthfulness? Anytime people lie, encourage others to lie, and defend their right to lie – it results in confusion and trouble. For a long time I have prayed that the flds folks would just be open and truthful and trust God to help them through. Lots of us make mistakes, put our confidence in the wrong people and get involved with things that are destructive to ourselves and others and it is only when we come to terms with our mistakes and are willing to make the necessary changes that things can get back into order.
Well I meant oxytocin but I suppose oxycontin could create God too!
Actually, if I had to pick a neurochemical that creates God I’d vote for dopamine.
And yes Cat I kinow the difference between oxytocin and oxycontin.
OOPS looks like an Oxycontin outbreak on Anon Aisle 5!
Thats pretty deep stuff, not necessarily making sense, but if the question was “Are defense attorneys (esp in the cases of the FLDS) promoting honesty amongst their clients” I would say NO, they are trying to make excuses.
The evidence wrings loud and clear that they did it, they are just trying to wormhole out of taking their responsibility.
I would be satisfied if they plead guilty and took the sentence from the judge, likely would have been less that 75 years.
Of course, if they spoke up and admitted they made mistakes by “following the leader” and showed true repentance, remorse and willingness to reform, that would help.
But they all march to prison saluting Warren, and they try to worm out of the problem, they would do it again tomorrow if they got out.
Heah, I love the NEW FLDSTexas header!
Who’s that with Wendell Loy Nielsen?
caJIM that would be the artist formally known as “da profit” with Wendell.
I notice that Warren appears to be sinking. 🙂
Y’all have to check the parody of Convoy that Miele wrote here (about escorting the FLDS out of Texas – it’s a hoot and a half!) https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/uep-trust-and-state-used-as-unwitting-tools/
On the same day of the raid of the FLDS ranch in El Dorado, Texas, a list known as the “Bishop’s List” was uncovered. The information on the Bishop’s List could be quite startling. On the list, there was the information of all the sect members, how many wives they had, and how many children. Also included was information on the ages of the members’ wives.
One name on the list was Wendell Loy Nielsen, who is 67 years of age. While polygamy in the United States is illegal, it sure has not stopped Nielsen. As Nielsen explains, he has twenty-one wives. Nielsen has thirty-six children as well. The children range between six-months of age to twenty-one years of age. Nielsen’s oldest wife is eighty-one and his youngest wife is twenty-four.
LOL had to laugh about the “Oxycontin outbreak on ANON Aisle 5! Isnt it interesting that some of Nielsen’s wives are old enough to be his mothers? Could that not be indicating that one reason for the multiple wives is to provide care and a home for the unattached and widows? Certainly wouldnt be for the usual claim of sexual exploitation, would it? Kind of casts a different light on the reason for their “assignments” outside of the “celestial marriage” arrangements. I know its weird for the rest of us to grasp. One family grouping is enough to have to work through.
But they all march to prison saluting Warren, and they try to worm out of the problem, they would do it again tomorrow if they got out.
——–
Yes, they’d do it again tomorrow. You cannot get past deep-seated mind control overnight; and you won’t see them get past it if/when they get out of prison either.
Prison, torture, or anything a gentile world can bring to bear won’t do anything but burn it in more deeply. Prison is proof-positive they’re “doing the right thing.” They will not give up their celestial inheritance to avoid incarceration.
Their only hope as a people is that “something?” clicks within one individual here and another individual there. Change has to come from within. Even so, their history favors schisms with different “leaders.” It doesn’t ever really go away.
Uh, duh Anonymous the 36 children of Wendell Loy must have come from somewhere? The FLDS average would suggest that say 18 children are likely step children, including future spiritual brides and the balance of 18 children are his own natural progeny. At trial I am sure we’ll hear all about the assorted deviant acts and behaviors that will be rationalized and given legitimate claims of righteous living. It just turns my stomach to hear more about their ‘lie-style’, though.
Anon:
Isnt it interesting that some of Nielsen’s wives are old enough to be his mothers? Could that not be indicating that one reason for the multiple wives is to provide care and a home for the unattached and widows?
———
You are correct. Widows are generally assigned to another man, whether they are capable of child-bearing or not. Even if they are capable of having children, any resulting children will belong to the deceased husband in the next life as long as he died faithful.
These widows are sealed to their “protectors” for time only; whereas with their first husbands for time and eternity.
Isnt it possible that “one individual here and another individual there” even within the prison system just might share encouragement to find their faith in God and not a self appointed prophet who has about caused their destruction? There is always hope.
Anon @1:06
The fundamental problem with the “caring for the unattached” argument is that they create the “unattached” part.
Zen story of the day:
If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him.
All most of us can do is hope, Anon. And what they do is hope for “the destructions” to save them which in turn makes them cling even harder to their “faith.”
RIH, isn’t there ANY other way than killing the Buddha? 😉
Ron, when that is the case, that is the pits, IMHO. Still laughing about the “Oxycontin outbreak on ANON Aisle 5!” by Stamps. I guess I probably do sound kind of nutty. Could we just chalk it up to old age?
E Texas, you’re wonderful.
“Could that not be indicating that one reason for the multiple wives is to provide care and a home for the unattached and widows? Kind of casts a different light on the reason for their “assignments” outside of the “celestial marriage” arrangements.”
Ah, the old argument that slavery is really in the best interest of the slaves cause it gives those poor darkeys someone to take care of them. It’s an oldie but a goodie, so I guess it was time to take that one out of moth balls and shake it off. Sure, because some older women need to be cared for, lets keep harems of young women for old men and take in a few grandmothers to do the laundry so the young girls can be available when I’m interested in them! What a deal! And of course, those poor women couldn’t possible use the brain God gave them and make a living themselves! Nah, better coral all those ladies inside of barbed wire so they don’t get out in the real world and hurt themselves! Poor things have trouble making decisions for themselves, can’t have them running around free.
Personally, I’d rather live in a plywood shack than be “provided” for by a patriarchal harem keeper who considers my place at the table to be part of his priesthood burden.
Bingo Betty.
In other matters…I love the new picture of ‘Kilroy’ and the ‘Slacker.’ (20+ something wives with only thirty something kids = slacker)
To the Oxy discussion, I’ll add Oxyclean!
If I find Buddha on the road, I’ll put him in my backyard and landscape light him.
Carry on.
Nice new header up there, FLDS Texas!
If I find Buddha on the road I’ll put him in my backyard and give him a wheelbarrow and a rake.
Back from the gym….
Great suggestions for Buddha – so much more useful than killing him. I wonder if he gives good massages. hmmm?
—-
And Betty! Couldn’t have said it better myself!
Just one note: perhaps god did give the women a brain, but guys like WSJ took it away and hid it. It took a lotta years to find mine and abscond with it.
I’m looking for a lawn Buddha to steal and take with me on my travels to Europe, and then I will take pictures of him to send to the Bhudda’s owners to let them know Bhudda had a great time while they were stuck at home worrying about him.
No not an original idea!
“Gnomes in America
As one might expect, the Gnome-napping phenomenon spread to the United States. A young American couple stole their wealthy next door neighbor’s garden gnome and took it with them on their European honeymoon, posting photos of the abducted gnome posing in front of popular European tourist attractions like the Eiffel Tower and the London Bridge.
This stunt eventually caught on and became a part of a popular television ad campaign by Internet travel site Travelocity.”
http://european-public-gardens.suite101.com/article.cfm/europes_garden_gnomes
Can I get a little Gnome statute of Warren? Hecho en Mehico por favor?
My understanding was many Flds women were taking Zoloft.
But Stamp, would your Aunt Mafalda approve of your gnome napping ?
I thought the travelocity gnome thing came from the French film Amelie.
Can I get a little Gnome statute of Warren? Hecho en Mehico por favor?
Stamp said this on March 26, 2010 at 6:43 PM
Hey Stamp, are you seeking the holy grail version of the “answer them gnome-thing?”
If you find it, I will buy one to add to my yard art collection.
Miele has a lighted gnome by now around her patio. I want one that simply stands in the yard and says “I gnome nothing” in response to whatever question he is asked.
However the “I gnome nothing” gnome would be quite impressive if he is lit up like Meile suggested
I want a Keep Sweet gnome who will answer everybody nothing.
Are these gnomes available yet? I have guests coming for Easter and I just picture this whimsical “Answer them gnome-thing gnome” holding a basket full of chocolate eggs and bunnies to serve my guests.
Stamp and Meile, if you are going to market your clever “Answer them gnome-thing” Easter holiday statue, then count me in for buying one and contact HSM or QVC to see if they will promote this unique, handy and clever addition to your traditional Easter fare.
If you choose the TV sales option, I suggest you copyright your creation using the WTF brand.
Mr. Gnome can be known as the “Celestial Keep Sweet Answer Them Nothing Easter Gnome” created by WTF. One size fits all!
Be the first in your neighborhood to own this unique gnome. Order them today to have by Easter.
One more thing on the As Seen On TV shopping list
My, my FLDS Texas, check your site stats!
Wow, right now the texasflds Alexa rating is 502,180 and the US rating is 84,635. Ron your experiment is working very nicely!
Here is a link to an article on African polygamy :
It seems that male polygamists don’t find the practice to be as much fun as some “wannabes” do :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4720457.stm
Here is a link to an interesting African blog from Ghana, where up to 50% of all marriages are polygamous.
Seems the women are not too happy
http://oneghanaonevoice.com/2009/05/polygamy-kathy-fitzgerald.html
In my day wives and children were still legal chattel in Texas and some other States.
I wonder if narcissistic personality disorder is more common among male polygynists… hmmmm…
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Polygamist+leader+funding+request+precedent+just+like+unusual+case/2733829/story.html
Ahh They must be unhappy because they don’t live in the good ol US of A, Catwhisperer with our freedoms.
Read the article, Pliggy, that is not their complaint.
Well, CW, I’m sure that having several women make you the center of attention certainly doesn’t curb it.
I like the BBC article for several points; how the patriarch is complaining that while he was once very wealthy he is now poor caring for 11 wives & 77 children and how he thinks the government should step in financially and help him. How he doesn’t know the names of all of his children & struggles to remember which wife bore them (usually by noting which hut they are housed in). Last how his eldest son, who is unemployed, already had 3 wives and 7 kids & is about to marry again. Yes these people are truly blessed (read that dripping with sarcasm please).
Heah, Alin you can vote ‘heal to toe’ anytime you wish and nobody is stopping your ‘free agency’. I am sure most Canadians are just so thrilled to have FLDS polygamists in Bountiful, BC.(Drip,drip, drip of sarcasm, too).
So if they don’t get their barbaric practice legally recognized are they going to ‘Huff & Puff’ and come to the ‘Land of the Free and Home of the Brave’? I sure hope not!
Yeah, what’s the deal with narcissist polygamists (and their wanna be brethren!)
that’s a rhetorical question, right?
I think that most male religious polygynists are narcissists. That certainly seems to be true from everything we’re reading and observing….
Cat
Never thought about it – I agree it certainly makes sense. One spouse would probably not provide enough feeding for the narcissist’ self absorption.
Read about how the Mormons are dealing with proselytizing new church members from Africa who practice polygamy.
Special Report: Utah’s connection to a troubled continent
Mission in Africa: Mormons find converts, challenges on very foreign soil
“Challenges remain » Given the church’s previous ban on blacks in its priesthood, it would be easy to presume that a lingering tension exists between white and black Mormons in Africa. Or that new members, discovering that history, might leave the faith in anger.
Not true, Christensen says. There have been very few defections based on race. A bigger barrier exists between members who hail from different tribes or nations.
Nor is polygamy as big a problem as it might be.
No man can be baptized who is living with more than one woman, Christensen says, but a polygamist can join if he divorces all but one wife. He can continue to support the others as long as he doesn’t live with them as husband and wife. Besides, polygamy is dying out in the younger generations.
Once people are converted, Christensen says, giving up tea, coffee and alcohol doesn’t seem too tough, either.”
http://www.sltrib.com/features/ci_14751371
Considering catwhisperer’s post above about prosperous African men going broke trying to afford to feed, house and clothe their polygamous families, I probably should have included the next couple of sentences in the article I cited.
The biggest obstacle to continued involvement turns out to be economic.
Ugandans come to the cities for jobs, but go back to their villages when they don’t have work or food. At home, they don’t know how to get in contact with the church, which is purposely centered in cities. Missionaries can proselytize only within an hour’s walk of an established branch.
Stampers..Let’s pick either the chick who was the crying pole cat, or Merilyn the unibrow – and put their picture on a cardboard paste up. Wherever we go, lets put them in the picture.
It could be a lot of fun.
Or Miele do one of both and have them on either side of you, LOL. Just saw the movie Up in the Air with George Clooney (not the greatest movie but not horrible) and that is part of the movie.
LS, Consider it done. Anyone want to open a anonymous pix hosting site?
May I make a suggestion for Christmas…
Warren the Grinch Gnome
For Easter is should be Warren Pilate Gnome.
Good Afternoon,
Happy Palm Sunday and Chag Pesach Sameach,
I would like to open a topic of discussion today, with particular interest in what our legal colleagues might have to say on this issue :
Do you believe that recognition of gay marriage will inexorably lead to decriminalization or legalization of polygamy?
Your thoughts and rationale?
Next my dog and cat who love each other dearly will want to marry I suppose. Both are spayed females thank goodness I can still go to the pet store to pet kittens.
With my gay & lesbian friends it’s not so much gay marriage that they desire it’s more of a recognized domestic partnership. Something that would allow for medical coverage and survivor-ship rights without having to form an independent trust. These are adults who are in long term (monogamous) relationships, work and pay their taxes, support themselves, own their own homes and don’t have a herd of children.
IMHO, gay marriage and polygamous marriage are not the same issue. The gay person is not able to marry at all unless they are allowed gay marriage. The polygamist has the same right to marry once that any of us have.
There is also the issue of more than a thousand years of building the body of law that now controls property, inheritance, immigration, social security, medicare, insurance, medical privacy, taxes, etc…..If you had twenty wives would you want ALL of them to be your medical POA? Can a wife get alimony or child support based on the income of the other wives? What about your social security death benefit? Family coverage on corporate insurance policies…for a family of 75? If a man is admited into the us through INS, do they have to consider a large polygamist family that will follow him? So how do we set quotas for a country if one man might mean a family of 25?
Proponents say they want it decriminalized as if these other issues would not arise. If it is not illegal to declare yourself married to multiple people, then you suddenly have opened the door to all those other questions referenced in my last paragraph. Decriminalization would lead to a load of litigation.
However, what I think and what the court actually does are two different things. I have no idea how they would rule, but if I would have to bet, I would bet “no”.
Some of my gay & lesbian friends want marital status, they don’t want “separate but equal”
Ron-in-Houston and Tx Blues Man, what say you ?
My personal feeling is that as polygamy has been shown in so many studies to be harmful to women and children that it shouldn’t ever be leagalized. (Should and what the government actually does being two very different propositions.) However homosexual unions have never been shown to be harmful to any of the participants. Most of the negativity in homosexual unions appears to be resulting from societal stresses, not the union itself.
Gay marriage and polygamous marriage are not the same. In gay marriage you actually make a plan on having children and a third party/agency/sperm bank is involved. There goes any chance of gay minors breeding children. Polygamous marriage is simply wrong and as Betty stated they have the right to marry one person like any of us.
Rebeckah is absolutely correct. Medical studies indicate that gay marriage does not have a negative effect on either the partners or the children of the partners. Therefore, it is my belief that it should be recognized as a legitimate form of marriage.
The same definitely cannot be said of polygamy.
Why is it that some say legalizing gay unions will inexorably lead to decriminalization / legalization of polygamous marriages ?
The big thing is NO choice.
Gay people have choices and are not assigned a partner. In the FLDS polygamy branch you get assigned to a husband, reassigned over and over again at the whim of a prophet, children shuffled around from one new priesthood father to another.
A recognized gay, legal marriage would just give the same rights under the law as other monogamous marriages have.
For a polygamous marriage to be legal, almost all of our tax laws, and every other law that relates to marriages would have to be rewritten. I don’t think that is going to happen. Neither will Sharia law, that makes provisions for polygamous unions, become the law of the land.
Do you believe that recognition of gay marriage will inexorably lead to decriminalization or legalization of polygamy?
………………..
Not as long as the United Nations considers polygamy to be a human rights abuse.
catwhisperer said: “Do you believe that recognition of gay marriage will inexorably lead to decriminalization or legalization of polygamy?”
As those before astutely noted, a literal mountain of laws would have to be re-written AND there is that little-sidebar called institutionalized-abuse.
So, no, I don’t think so – but sadly, I don’t think there will be much of a push to enforce existing laws against it. Only when they get caught fishing from the underage-pond. Which they,seemingly, are compelled to do. (sigh)
on another note: http://www.newsweek.com/ID/235504
Interesting article on being able to sue for *alienation of affection* – the law is still on the books in Utah. Presumably, the 1st/legal wife could sue for this — curious proposition, yes?
I agree that recognition of gay marriage should not inexorably lead to decriminalization or legalization of polygamy, but there are some who would disagree with me. I believe that too many laws would have to be re-written.
C-M, interesting you should say that Sharia law would not be recognized in this country.
I certainly hope that is true, because in Britain, there are Sharia law courts which adjudicate matters among Muslims. Women who seek justice through this alternative system often are denied rights that they would have been entitled to under British law.
I certainly hope that we would not see such an alternative system established for Muslims here.
Read here about the injustices of the Sharia Law System which is permitted in Britain :
http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/about/
I didn’t know that about British law. What a scarey thought, different laws for different people. I, personally, think it a huge mistake. It sets a precedent that can backfire, if every different religious or ethnic group demand the same right. What a madhouse of a mess!!!
Regarding Gay Marriage:
My personal opinion is they want to have it since they’ve been treated as second class citizens for so long. From a legal perspective there are very few things where marriage is absolutely necessary. Between wills, beneficiary designations, powers of attorney, declarations to physicians, and other instruments, I don’t see marriage as the only alternative.
Sure there are probably some places where there is no substitute for an actual marriage, but my opinion is let a bunch of gays start to pay “gay alimony” and suddenly folks will be wondering what they were thinking in demanding “gay marriage.”
Yes, Muslim women are told that they should use the Sharia court system in Britain, because it is faster and cheaper than the secular British court system.
Because the Sharia courts decisions are recognized in Britain, their decisions are legally binding.
Muslim women are apparently told that if they are good Muslims, they will use the alternative system to seek quick justice.
What they quickly learn is that they have fewer rights under this system – custody is given to fathers, even if they are abusive, and men may divorce women without cause, but women must prove that there are grounds for divorce, which is more difficult. Men may have up to 4 wives, and some of these wives may be “temporary” for purposes of sexual gratification, but women may have only one husband.
Let us hope that we never see such an alternative system established here.
The rationale in Islam to limit one Muslim man’s wives to four (4) was that it excluded female slave concubines in the official sharia law count. Love to see the secular resolution of law that reconciles Fundamentalist Celestial with Muslim Sharia laws? Good luck with that premise, neither group would care for the opposite side to reach a resolution. Joseph Smith not only spiritually wed two 14 year old brides but he was polyandrously wed to at least 6 other celestial brides, gets sorta complicated, like a tangled web.
“Why is it that some say legalizing gay unions will inexorably lead to decriminalization / legalization of polygamous marriages ?”
They wish to see the issue as a personal freedoms issue rather that a for-the-good-of-society issue. Hopefully those making the decisions can keep their purposes as legislators straight. 😉
So Ron – in – Houston,
You don’t think that recognition of gay marriage would inexorably lead to decriminalization or legalization of polygamy?
Cat-
That’s actually a tough issue –
From an equal protection standpoint, I think one does not lead to the other. The government puts its stamp of approval on a union between one man and one woman. So applying equal protection standards means that gay marriage would be acceptable while plural marriage would not be.
From a forth amendment privacy standpoint, the issue is a little less clear. However, most lawsuits about gay marriage have been phrased in equal protection terms rather than privacy terms.
Laws, of course, are not divorced from the culture and to a large extent formalize the culture that surrounds them. One of the reason that even conservative Supreme Court justices have been somewhat sympathetic to gay issues is that everyone of them probably knows someone who is gay. So, I don’t see cultural legislators enacting any polygamy legislation. Similarly, I don’t see any Supreme Court justices willing to apply the Constitution to plural marriage either.
Ron,
I don’t believe that recognizing gay marriage would of necessity lead to recognition of polygamous marriages, but
I am concerned about what I see happening in Canada.
First, they recognized gay marriage – I’m fine with that.
Then the Canadians recognized that a child could have three parents for purposes of gay marriage.
I am not so sure what the effect of that might be on a child.
Now we have Winston Blackmore seeking recognition of his > 20 polygamous marriages, based on the preceding case law regarding gay marriage.
On Lifetime Movie Network right now I’m watching “In God’s Country,” a 2007 movie based on a true story about one of the women who left Winston Blackmore with her children. I can’t remember her name, but I recognize some of the factual situations from my reading.
Cat
I will tell you not to draw any parallels between parentage laws and marriage laws. Parentage laws have been severely tested by medical advances. Those laws have had to adapt to things like surrogates, artificial insemination, and other medical advances.
Alexa update:
For those of you that have your tool bars or status bars in place, this will come as no big news. This site is now ranked in the 477 thousand range.
For a little refresher, we started this little experiment in the 650 thousand range, sank a little to the 680 thousand range and are now up over 200,000 places from the site low point in the 683 thousand range.
We’re not even at the “please do this at least until April 1” date that I asked you guys to do for me to indulge my curiosity. Personally, (and especially after getting a tip from E. Texas on Alexa and Firefox) I’m going for a longer period to see where this site will actually peak. Obviously, this site is not a Google or some other internet heavyweight, but I’m fairly curious to see what the upside is for this site.
The problem with polygamy is while it is easy enough for the state to not recognize such a union, how to you distinguish between what is illegal and legal? It is not against the law to cohabitate and have sex with multiple partners at the same time.
Ron, would prosecuting Mormons and Muslims for practicing polygamy absent any other charges while ignoring secular “polyamorists” be grounds for appeal based on religious discrimination?
Should the state start cracking down on secular polys and swinger types in order to make a credible claim that the bigamy laws are equally applied to all?
“Should the state start cracking down on secular polys and swinger types in order to make a credible claim that the bigamy laws are equally applied to all?”
No, not really. “Secular polys” don’t claim to be married but rather have “committment” ceremonies for the most part. Swingers don’t even have commitment ceremonies.
Frankly, I think the bigamy laws being used to increase punishment on those who use religious coercion to pretend to marry and then impregnate underage girls is absolutely appropriate.
Ron, would prosecuting Mormons and Muslims for practicing polygamy absent any other charges while ignoring secular “polyamorists” be grounds for appeal based on religious discrimination?
There are a lot of laws that probably are not enforced in a neutral fashion. However, so long as the law is neutral on its face then the law will stand.
And Ron, this sites US ranking is now at 73,983, I think yesterday it was at a little over 84,000.
And the comparing site stats are Alexa rating: 401,782 US rating: 88,128. Ron you better buy more Alcoa stock that is going to cause a huge McNut to go stark raving crazy.
Here’s an article that explains why a woman’s right organization believes polygamy victim Elizabeth Smart was able to recover from the abuse she suffered at the hands of a indie polygamist. Article states it was her faith: http://womenselfdefensefederation.com/how-elizabeth-smarts-faith-saved-her
This raises the question, what about the victims of the FLDS, who have no faith the rescue them from polygamy?
In the case of Elizabeth Smart, she had been raised in a church that accepts marriage as one man & one woman. She had a religious base with which to resist polygamy. The victims of the FLDS have no religious base upon which to reject polygamy, for they are the victims of their own religion IMO.
The argument that adulterers or swingers are the same as polygamists is really annoying; it completely ignores all other aspects of sex except sex. Marriage involves not only commitement, but a recognition of that commitment by the couple’s community. In a socialogical sense, that is the definition of marriage; if you and your community think you are married, then you are. And that is the basis of the Texas common law marriage. But generally speaking, marriage involves cohabitation, shared financial resources and property, and shared parenting.
Polyamory may or may not involve those things. Many polyamorous people have a central relationship that resembles monogamy and then have other relationships that could be called satellite relationships. I don’t actually know any polyamorous relationships where they all live together, although I have heard that they exist. Group marriage might be closer to polygamy than polyamory, but they are quite rare.
But one very important distinction between all of these and religious polygyny is equality of the genders in social, sexual and financial power and a high degree of individual choice.
Sadie
Well crap – so much for Auth-or-itay – this site is now the top ranked FLDS site in the United States.
No, Ron, it CAN’T be so! Why the king of NPD is the only true source of polygamy information AND the will of God! I’m sure it’s just a glitch — ModerndayPhool will surely surge to the lead again. (Right after that blizzard we’re expecting in a very warm mythical place.)
Sigh, “all other aspects of marriage except sex”…..long day.
Always Liked bein #1!!! 🙂
LOL, even when it’s with a program with as many flaws as Alexa. 😉
So, a bunch of anonymous nobodies who don’t know hac from hoc have a better site ranking than the Pharisee? I’m stunned, I tell you, stunned!
ah, the open label phase 1 clinical trial of Alexa for the treatment of NPD has been a success
way to go ron!!
I’ve only been tracking the overall Alexa rating and hadn’t been following much the US rating.
The real knock on Alexa ratings are that ultimately they reflect where folks with the Alexa toolbar surf. I suppose it’s not that they are totally meaningless. Alexa ratings will have some relation to which sites are truly “most popular.”
TexasMom, an ex-FLDS member named Jason Williams sued the FLDS for “alienation of affection” after Warren Jeffs (under the guise of his prophet father Rulon) convinced Jason’s LEGAL wife Suzanne to leave him and become a plural wife of another man named Lester Johnson.
Basically, Suzanne was reassigned to Lester by the FLDS prophets.
Utah recognized the “alienation of affection” statue, but Arizona did not.
Jason and Suzanne had lived in both states during their marriage. She had a sister in Centennial Park and they lived there for a short time.
I think Jason sued the FLDS in both states, but only Utah had the “alienation of affection” statute.
Warren later decided to reassign Suzanne to yet another man (more worthy man according to Warren Jeffs the demi-god) and Suzanne said NO! Good for her! And she and Lester both apostasized from the FLDS.
Jason (with Suzanne’s encouragement) wrote a book about this horrible time in his life.
You can read more about this incredibly brave man here http://www.thehopeorg.org/jason.html
And he wrote a wonderful book about his experience called “Zero Chance” – signed copies of his book are also available for purchase from that same web site.
http://www.thehopeorg.org/IFS_Zero_Chance.html
Jason gets ALL proceeds from the sale of his signed books from The HOPE Organization.
Ron, Your 4:27 posting listed lots of great benefits for gays except for the federal recognition of Social Security benefits.
SSA benefits are life-long important things and so far, common law nor alternative relationships are legally recognized by the US SSA for survivor benefits I think this is WRONG!
Well crap – so much for Auth-or-itay – this site is now the top ranked FLDS site in the United States.
………………….
Well, the blog belonging to “The nation’s only polygamy beat writer” is certainly dead in the water.
Anonymous 10:52 PM — re: Jason Williams.
Hey…thanks for that. I’ve read just a bit, will do more tomorrow, when time. And ….I think I will definitely buy the book.
It’s rare to read about an FLDS male who said, “enough of this” and then actually DID something about it.
I’d presumed this musty-old-law was something of potential benefit to the women — but my hat is off anyway — HUZZAH to him…wish all the other FLDS males would man-up like that. No bullsh*t-repenting from afar — rather… a stiff middle finger and a lawsuit. Go dude!
Check the Alexa stats – there is even further improvement.
I read Jason’s book – it is wonderful.
He has humor and tenacity and he tells of how the FLDS (Jeffs) brought set out to financially destroy Jason so that then the courts would decide he wasn’t a fit dad.
Buy it
Interesting thing about Jason
Like Carolyn and like Elissa
they came from not-royal families – not even “real” families – in that their parents were converts and/or peripheral then moved to short creek
says something about why Jeffs would start his own experiment in mind control by selecting very young members into the ranch
I’m annoyed the Utah courts did not let Jason win; saying that he did not suffer outrageously. He lost his home and his family – what other suffering from alienation of affections is possible? What a crock!
Leave it to Utah, Betty.
They are the ultimate apologists and enablers for the FLDS mess we now find ourselves in today.
Texas Connie, that “In God’s Country” movie was based on Debbie Palmer’s life. Debbie was married to Ray Blackmore (60 years old) when she was 15 years old.
Ray Blackmore was Winston Blackmore’s father.
After Ray died, Debbie was reassigned to 2 other men before she set her house on fire and fled Bountiful with her children.
Debbie Palmer wrote a book: “Keep Sweet: Children of Polygamy” published in 2004.
I got my signed copy from The HOPE Organization:
http://www.thehopeorg.org/IFS_Keep_Sweet_Book.html
but I haven’t read it yet. 😳
CM said:
“For a polygamous marriage to be legal, almost all of our tax laws, and every other law that relates to marriages would have to be rewritten. I don’t think that is going to happen. Neither will Sharia law, that makes provisions for polygamous unions, become the law of the land.”
==================================
Indeed its the most unrealistic proposition. Sadly, the laws on the books arent enforced better, because the women stuck in polygamy are divested of their rights.
Kind of like semi-slaves. Or maybe more like real slaves.
Polygamy – one of the “twin relics of BARBARISM”.
Thanks for the info on Debbie Palmer and the “In God’s Country” movie. I recognized the story as originating from Bountiful, B.C. (called Harmony in the movie) but couldn’t remember the details. I was just pleased to see a movie about the escape of a polygamous wife from years and years of abuse. It helps, if even a little, to build awareness in the mainstream media.
E. Texas,
I know that we’ve already talked about his question. But at the site you sent (and thank you for sending it) I read the following quote from Debbie Palmer:
“According to the eternal laws of the polygamous group I grew up with, I will be a step-grandmother to many of my siblings for all time and eternity.”
It is obviously not possible to leave your family of origin, be a goddess on your godhead husband’s planet, and still be with your siblings for eternity.
I do not attempt to resolve all matters of faith logically. However, the FLDS, like other fundamentalist groups, tend to create huge complicated cosmic systems, which are dressed with the appearance of internal logic. Once a group does that, their ideas become subject to rational scrutiny.
Once they start splitting families apart on different planets, without a convenient “Beam me up Scotty” device, it makes ya go hmmmmmmmm.
I reckon none of them have thought it out.
Well, some of them have left, Stamp, and from the readings I have seen some did leave for reasons of faith just such as these.
Personally, I find it amazing that Warren keeps it all glued together. He’s done about everything possible to change everyone’s mind.
Guess a lot of people bit hard on the fantasy and still refuse to look at the details and the reality.
Hope you all don’t mind, but since the SLTrib banned me a couple months ago for posting the “Deer Do It” list and I had to promise to never post it again on their site to get the ban lifted, I am going to post the updated one here. If someone else just “happens” to copy and paste if from here, why I had nothing to do with that. So here it is:
Deer Do It List – Revised 3/29/2010
1. But it’s legal in France at 13 (Whoops , those darn French changed the legal age of consent to 15. Those Frenchies they must have thought the FLDS would move to France and just to persecute those holy FLDS people changed the age all of a sudden in…..1945!)
2. How do you know they really had sex just because there’s a baby?
3. DNA isn’t conclusive.
4. But other people get teenagers pregnant and they don’t go to jail! It’s not fair!
5. America’s high schools corrupt children and give them condoms!
6. But they consented and so did their parents, so it can’t be wrong.
7. They changed the law just to get them (even though the girl is 12 and would be jail bait regardless).
8. Jurisdiction! Sure she’s got a baby, but you don’t know where it was actually conceived. Just because they got married and live together at the ranch doesn’t mean anything. They could have driven to Reno, had sex, and driven back. And that makes it moral and all as well as legal.
9. It can’t be illegal cause Holy Father tells uncle warren what to say.
10. The children are more likely to be assaulted by CPS than by their husbands!
11. The Virgin Mary was only 13.
12. It’s natural. Teenagers are better at childbirth than older women anyway.
13. Our ancestors did it. Why, 150 years ago, this was normal.
14. They have all those hormones stirring up in them and it’s better to get them married off early to an older man who can support them than to let them and their illegitimate kids live in poverty and shame.
15. It’s Flora’s fault.
16. It’s Carolyn’s fault.
17. It’s Dan Fischer’s fault.
18. It’s Flora’s and Carolyn’s fault!
19. A grand jury can indict a ham sandwich!
20. It’s genocide!
21. The CPS is in cahoots with the Southern Baptists!
22. You’re all Nazis!
23. First Amendment, Freedom of Religion, Press, Assembly!
24. Fourth Amendment, Unreasonable Search and Seizure, Warrants!
25. Fifth Amendment, Indictments, Due Process, Self-Incrimination!
26. Sixth Amendment, Fair and Speedy Trial!
27. Eighth Amendment, Excessive Bail!
28. The Judge is in cahoots with CPS (She should be disbarred, run out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, how dare she)
29. The whole system is unfair because it is run by a bunch of lesbian menopausal hysterical women who can’t be fair to the FLDS.
30. It’s all Malonis’ fault!
31. We are unaware of any underage marriages here.
32. Although spiritual marriages (may) occur, they are not necessarily consummated until the girls are of age.
33. A girl’s greatest calling is to be a sister wife and Mother (sometimes all of the above at the same time, depending on who she marries, grandfather, uncle, brother, [step]dad).
34. Three raids on three polygamists groups in 6 months is a conspiracy to take down Mitt Romney.
35. “I don’t understand why she was taken away from me.”
36. Polygamy is needed because there are two percent more women than men, and without a husband, those women would live in poverty.
37. Deer do it.
38. Its all a plot because CPS needed blonde-haired, blue-eyed baby’s to sell.
39. She could have gotten impregnated with a turkey baster.
40. Warren can change DNA by reassigning families.
41. Somewhere on the internet there is a list of statistics that have absolutely nothing to do with anything, so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls and everyone should just shut up about it.
42. BAPTIST BUSES, BAPTIST BUSES, BAPTIST BUSES.
43. 30 years ago some baby died in Ireland so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls.
44. I’ve been her step-father for eight years, she owes me.
45. I have married her two older sisters and given her nephew and nieces, it’s all in the family now.
46. It’s not my fault, her mother was reassigned to me then she began to ovulate.
47. She’s my 24th wife and I am 62 years old her wifely duties will be easier if compared to a mother wife.
48. This is Gentile persecution because monogamy leaves their gentlemen sex obsessed and jealous.
49. Her mother liked me so much as a reassigned husband, she insisted that I marry her daughter, I was just trying to be a good provider.
50. “The dictations may not be correct. A girl’s diary I violated had her lying in it”
51. Wisan is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
52. Walther is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
53. Denise Lindberg is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
54. New from Raymond Jessop’s trial – FLDS girls are sluts and will have sex with anyone.
55. Also new from Raymond Jessop’s trial – My FLDS brothers are scumbags and are having sex with my wives.
56. The governor should have called Warren Jeffs personally and explained any law of the state that “might” affect the FLDS.
57. For every conviction, there will be ten more to take our place
58. It’s all Dr. Beall’s fault.
59. They are all false memories, that’s not really a baby you see.
60. Because the FLDS Trolls want to divert attention away from illegal acts.
61. If polygamy were legal, Tiger Woods wouldn’t have cheated on his wife with various and assorted cocktail waitresses and porn actresses.
62. According to Wee Willie Jessop: “Sexual assault of a child is a “victimless” crime, we are being persecuted.”
63. 12 and 13 year olds are liable to start having sex spontaneously. To keep them holy, they are hooked up and married to a well matured already married grandfatherly type.
64. It will cost Texas too much money to uphold their laws. Eventually the FLDS will win the right to sexually assault children because Texas will run out of money.
65. Because Texas is dominated by KKK bigots, or alternatively, Texas is dominated by anti-white bigots.
66. It’s just a waste of time and money to prosecute FLDS because God told Uncle Warren all the evil gentiles will soon be wiped off the earth.
67. We are a peaceful people, so we should be allowed to rape little girls.
68. The cows are sacred and “irreplaceable.” FREE THE COWS!!!
69. It’s holy to us because it’s part of our religion.
70. It is a conspiracy of hypnotists implanting false memories.
71. Someone, somewhere, for some reason wrote a diary so the FLDS should be allowed to rape little girls.
72. From Warren Jeffs’ own dictations – God told me to because the end is near.
73. From Warren Jeffs’ own dictations – Bring on the destructions!
74. “If baby boys get circumcised without their consent, girls can be married at menses without their consent too, it seems only fair”.
That teaching never made any sense to me and my questions about it never got sensible answers. Basically, one has to wait for the second coming when god’s house will be put in order and then all such things will become more clear. Asking such questions just shows one isn’t very full of faith.
To me that’s just the sort of thing someone in authority says that in an awfully roundabout way means, “I don’t know” but they don’t dare be that straightforwardly honest.
So, I figure I’m counted among the “O ye of little faith” for all time and eternity. Oh well…
E.Texas said: So, I figure I’m counted among the “O ye of little faith” for all time and eternity. Oh well…
Well, look at the bright side, you’ll have a lots of good people [like some of us] for company!
Years ago I was given a box of greeting cards from a friend who worked in a Christian bookstore. She gave me and another friend a box. The assortment was nice for birthdays and anniversaries and sickness, but there 4 cards that had that scripture on them “Oh ye of little faith.” I guess it was suppose to be cards of encouragement or reminders of standing in faith when all looks bad. Anyway, it was kind of insulting and the other friend and I decided to address them all back to our friend and drop them in the mail now and then to her without signing them. It made for great fun until the mystery was solved!
Yes, mc1199, I know I’m in good company… and living on the bright side of the fence!
Can someone lend a hand? I was reading the current events at the HOPE.org and there is a video of the Custer County Commission. The volume is way down for me, and I can’t hear what they’re saying. Can anyone listen to it and summarize it? Thanks.
Miele, the local Pringle residents are concerned about the enormous amount of traffic on the country lane going to the FLDS compound. The old road was not built for that much traffic.
They are also concerned about how narrow the road is and there have been some near-miss accidents with FLDS trucks and the other local residents.
They were also concerned about the extensive amount of construction on the FLDS property and how noisy it is night and day.
Sounds like the Pringle compound is really growing!
Miele, the local Pringle residents were also commenting about the sheriff stopping FLDS vehicles without any license plates.
The one man said residents are being run off the road. “Not necessarily intentionally, that’s just how they (FLDS) drive.”
No plates? Tow and Stow!
Surely Pringle has a Cellosteel Kingdom for wayward FLDS vehicles!
Warrant in his Priesthood training claims that he could remove someones status in the church for ‘wonderment’, which would be the Offense of being curious enough to ask a question? How’s that for neutering the opposition, silencing any questioner and threatening ‘Outter Darkness’ amoungst anyone for just posing a question to anyone other than the Prophet and asking him could get you declared an Apostate. Doesn’t seem to be a very thriving environment for free agency, I think the National Geographic reporter described it as the men seemed “cowed” and silent.
Curiosity: Some places remain unknown because no one has ventured forth. Others remain so because no one has ever come back.
I ♥ the Despair site. – 😉
FLDS Texas Admin : Please check your email.
Thanks !
Anonymous and Anonymous, thank you very much.
That’s just how they (FLDS) drive. LOL.
Oh Boy, we have ANOTHER FLDS attorney – Robert Wickett for James Oler and the FLDS church in the Supreme Court of British Columbia “Constitutionality of Polygamy” case.
Click to access canada_Chief_Justice_Baumans_Order_2-18-2010.pdf
I’m still puzzled at what we learned of Hurley’s behavior as well as Willie’s, in Leroy’s court. Even accusing the judge, surely he knew better. Is the point trying to get a retrial or what?
FLDS men (especially Big Willie) can be very arrogant and condescending towards women. Maybe Hurley has been hanging around Willie too long.
Can Judge Walther b**ch slap the both of them. PLEASE ?!?
I’d like to see a few days in the slammer for contempt of court, myself.
Anyone have a link for the supposed terse exchanges between Hurley and Walther? Was it only in the El Dorado Success?
Ron,
Wasn’t Proud Texan going to obtain a transcript for us?
For those who expressed interested on literature relevant to the outcomes of children raised by gay parents, see this link :
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/109/2/341
Would it be against policy/copyright to quote 5 or 6 sentences from the Success? Or, I could paraphrase…
Well, the less you use of a copy righted work the less likely it is to be deemed a violation. However, no one can stop you from paraphrasing.
During 2 days of penalty phase testimony, defense attorneys tried to prove that apostates were conspiring against the FLDS. They at one point accused the judge (Walther) “of signaling her feelings about the case to the jury panel.”
When the judge “bristled at the allegation,” she sent the jury out of the room and asked Hurley to repeat his statement. She then advised him she had a sinus headache and had “simply leaned back in her chair.”
When the jury came back into the courtroom she told them she had a headache, and advised them to listen only to the evidence and to not “interpret her posture or facial expressions as a signal of her feelings about the case.”
See: http://www.myeldorado.net/
I don’t really understand the attempt to prove that apostates are conspiring against the FLDS. You would have to prove that their conspiracy was illegal or based in lies. It’s not illegal to get together and raise money for legal fees to sue an organization. That happens all the time. It is not, by itself, proof of slander, libel or perjury.
But, you know, when you are guilty and the evidence is overwhelming, use whatever BS you can find to put the testimony against you into question.
That’s actually not a very unusual story. It’s also why lawyers have an automatic right to a personal recognizance bond and the right to have another judge determine if they’re in contempt of court.
Betty
I suppose if you’re conspiring to have the truth revealed it’s still a conspiracy.
I checked Websters and while the top definition involves some “unlawful or wrongful act,” the lesser definition is simply “to act in harmony toward a common end.”
By the second definition, the FLDS is also a conspiracy to get a lot of them into the Cell O Steel Kingdom.
449K
Wow dropping like a rock!
Anyhoo, I think there was another courtrookm drama – I’d heard Hurley asked Judge Walther to “inform the jury” multiple times with the same request even though she had already done so.
I have to share this web-page with you all. I think it should be titled: Logical Fallacies for Dummies. 😀
The subtlety of the FLDS Church propaganda doesn’t end at suggesting that apostates are persecuting them, they will supply the motive and nominate the objective too. Apostates are planning the takeover of the FLDS Church and allow Satan to enslave the FLDS members. The Kindred Spirits plan the ultimate genocide of the FLDS congregation once the Prophet and righteous leaders have been arrested and convicted. Elected officials are only interested in absconding with the FLDS trust and will use the judicial system to achieve their EVIL goals. So you see the goals are genocide, theft of the Trust and ruin of the church for Satan. There is just no legal reason to prosecute for ‘Child Brides’, sex trafficking, trust embezzlement, fugitive flight, accomplices to unlawful matrimony(s), sexual assault and bigamy. The Apostates, Elected Officials and KS are just making trumped up charges, that have somehow turned into Jury conviction verdicts.
Rebeckah – I so need to steal some of those. Here’s one of my favorites:
7. ARGUMENT BY BIZARRE DEFINITION
Example: He’s not a criminal. He just does things that are against the law.
18. FOLLOWING THE ADVICE OF KNOWN IDIOTS
Example: Uncle Warren says extra wives makes you worthy. That’s good enough for me!
Speaking of ‘Sex Trafficking’ where are the Mann or RICO Act(s) violations going to be pressed by the Department of Justice. We now have convictions of native Utah Priesthood men and ‘Child Brides’ that were committed at the YFZ Raunch in Texas, seems like the sex trafficking charges are overdue and the Texas crime wave continues. Authority(s) need to investigate these same crimes in Mancos in Colorado, Pringle in South Dakota and Pioche in Nevada( 30 miles North along Hwy 93 ). Federal Task Force as called for by Senator Harry Reid is needed to confront the organized crime syndicate operations inside of the United States.
12. IGNORING THE DOWNSIDE RISK
Example: I know that marrying tweeners could could land me in prison, but it’s three seconds of great fun!
3. I AM THE WORLD
Example: I don’t listen to any music. Therefore, music is not popular
Jim
Your guess is as good as anyone else. Some people claim that some politicians may have intervened and there will never be Federal charges.
I’ll make this observation. A lot of times when something happens that is both a Federal and a state crime, the feds won’t act so long as things are handled at the state level.
It would be interesting to know what happened to all those things seized by the FBI.
Hmmm, perhaps we should take the logical fallacies and create the “FLDS Fallacies.”
Stamp already has a start.
Yes, Ron,”It would be interesting to know what happened to all those things seized by the FBI”.
One point that I wish to make is that this FLDS Prophet and leadership show absolutely no change in attitude, behavior or any admission of guilt short of Michael Emack’s face saving plea for a sexual assault conviction to salvage some self-respect, seems like an oxymoron. Anyway, with known enclaves being sited in several additional locations and no remorse expressed by the FLDS Church beyond we will observe the age limitations to marry, isn’t that pledge meaningless when they now argue that ‘marriage’ is not how they define Celestial Law? So the typical twisted interpretation is again at play and the newest enclaves don’t seem to apply or fall under the pledge because there are no ‘marriages’ taking place. Basically, we have to stop trying to negotiate with a Theocracy that sees itself as being the primary player and the Government as some second rate institution that they have to dishonestly deal with to keep their practices preserved.
Negotiations with the FLDS Church is a complete waste of effort, resources and time. The UEPTrust situation is without any resolution because the Prophet forbids any property to be given to private individuals, he calls it theft and insists it is consecrated for eternity. His insistence that their is a higher law and Authority beyond our Judicial System is an attempt to enforce his professed religion upon the Courts. Either the US Constitution is the Supreme Law of our Nation or this Theocracy has unilaterally declared itself independent of American Jurisprudence. The UEPTrust legal wrangling has gone on for five years and the recommended course is not acceptable to the Prophet, so there is no resolution possible after all of this time. Having the criminal conduct and legal defenses controlled from prison by a convicted Felon, seems to me to trigger the RICO Act that an underworld organization is illegally obstructing, preventing legal settlements and directing defiance of our Court rulings.
Wonder if the leaders in the mainline Mormon Church would dare to visit Warren Jeffs and encourage him to do the right thing for his followers and stick with his original repenting and admitting he was a fraud. And a question – can anyone visit him? Does he have to agree to a visit?
You probably wouldnt be able to visit him. And the mainstream LDS Church wouldnt have anything to do with him.
I like:
14. IRRELEVANT COMPARISONS
Example: Someone, somewhere, for some reason wrote a diary so the FLDS should be allowed to rape little girls.
or
Example: If baby boys get circumcised then the FLDS should be allowed to rape little girls.
But hey I just found where A-LI-N, 40anddelusional/MaryKay/I_am_a_Bigot and JulieW got all their “facts”.
29. HALLUCINATIONS OF REALITY
Example: I got my facts from a talking tree.
OR
Example: Gentile school kids are sexualized because they are taught about safe sex, so FLDS girls should be able to have sex whenever the men want it, they should know the ropes too.
29. HALLUCINATIONS OF REALITY
Example: I got my facts from a talking rock in a hat.
caJIM, You have to listen closely to Willies statement.
He said the ‘the Church’ will no longer marry underage girls. Well, anyone who’s studied the FLDS knows that means exactly nothing. He said not one word one about the ‘Priesthood’ stopping.
Like all sociopaths, he’s parsing words.
I agree, Miele. Also, there is Jeff’s own words saying that there is no such thing as an under aged priesthood marriage; because if it is ordered by the prophet, then she’s the perfect age!
“So you see the goals are genocide, theft of the Trust and ruin of the church for Satan.”
You forgot the desire for lots of white, blue eyed babies to sell. I kind of thought that was a big one. 😉
Warren has said they will marry underage girls and also that if anyone takes title to their own home from the UEPT they are thieves and lose Priesthood.
So until Warren has written and signed it, nothings changed.
Willie speaks only for himself, and even then I wouldnt consider it truthful.
Rebeckah, I think I have seen everyone of those on the internet recently. Not to name names or anything.
I knew everyone would love them! 😀
Rebeckah, it’s also very convenient. Now instead of arguing or saying FU, Fred, we can just say… #14 or #29.
It’s a real keystroke saver!
I don’t know if any of you have had the opportunity to listen to Texas News Moment over the past week – I have – and I am shocked regarding the recent whistleblower reports that have surfaced.
It appears that a Chaplain for the Texas Army National Guard by the name of Randal W. Deese has been receiving a check from the Federal Government for his services while he both practiced “Christian” polygamy and promoted polygamy as “Pastor Randy” or “DaPastor” on various websites and chat groups, among them the Biblical Families Discussion Forum at http://www.biblicalfamilies.org. Apparently Chaplain Deese took a second “wife” in the Dallas / Ft. Worth area about 3 yrs ago, despite the objections of his first wife, and he encourages other Christian men to do so as well. Of note, “DaPastor” reported on the Biblical Families discussion forum that he would not use his real name, because he was afraid that “the government” would learn his identity. While on the government payroll, Deese engaged in and promoted illegal activities and regularly blogged with individuals who described the United States Government as “the Beast.”
Approximately 2.5 months ago, a whistleblower called Texas Military Forces Command Group in Austin and notified them of Chaplain Deese’s behaviors, which are inconsistent with Federal & State law as well as proper conduct for a military officer. Within 48 hours of the whistleblower’s disclosure, Deese’s name was removed from the website for the new “Christian” denomination Deese is forming to promote the practice of “Christian” polygamy, called the Assemblies of Christ – http://www.assembliesofchrist.org. This new denomination plans to target unmarried mothers for recruitment as the plural wives of fundamentalist Christian men as part of its “Sisters and Wives” forum on the Assemblies of Christ website.
Despite the whistleblower’s disclosure over 2 months ago, Deese continued as a Chaplain for Texas Military Forces until last week, when Texas News Moment revealed the full extent of Deese’s misconduct on the air.
Deese apparently resigned last Friday in the wake of the disclosure.
Congratulations to Texas News Moment on a job well done !
Thank you to the whistleblower and to Texas News Moment, it is also very interesting that the reporter on Texas News Moment that revealed the misconduct on the air was none other than K. Dee Ignatin, well done K. Dee!
Kudos to you, KDee!
I’m sorry, but something is not right here. A Google search on “texas news moment” does not reveal any websites. The only references it lists appear to be old and/or deleted links. Even if you delete the quotes and just search on texas+news+moment the results only show things like “moment of silence” or “eureka moment” but no site or any links with the phrase Texas News Moment.
Further, with advance apologies to anyone who is her fan, I find the fact that the “reporter” is K. Dee aka Boots highly suspect.
I just found a Randall W. Deese (age 31) as a registered sex offender in North Carolina DOC. I don’t know if it is the same guy from Texas or not.
http://webapps6.doc.state.nc.us/opi/viewoffender.do?method=view&offenderID=620441
No, it is not the same individual.
Not intending to cast stones:
I tried to connect to the Trileap site
http://www.trileap.org and the server was either offline or non-existent.
Ron here is the link to the news report:
[audio src="http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/23957946/297022860/name/TNM-032910-PM.mp3" /]
Regarding Deese – while I don’t condone his behavior, he can only be a polygamist to the extent his first wife doesn’t divorce his sorry a$$. Further, talk about an easy set up to take him to the cleaners. I’d love to have that case. It’s actually is somewhat bad that he was forced to resign. It cut the first wife out of potential income from military retirement.
I’m actually wondering just how strong the correlation is between male polygamists and narcissism. If Deese is Narcissus then apparently the first wife must be his Echo.
No, I would say that his first wife is trying to model exemplary Christian behavior, from her perspective …. and it is making her miserable, a fact that her husband freely admits.
Not that it bothers him one bit….
I’ve read some of that forum. The women who are soooo convinced that God wants them to be holy doormats just make my heart ache; talking about modest dress and total submission and obedience, etc.
I wonder if Deese asked the first wives father if he minded adding mares to the stable.
Naaahhhh He already had her to do his bidding, and of course she has no rights or say in the matter… He explained all this to her ahead of time I’m sure.
From what I’ve read on his site, the women are well aware that they have no say about anything after they accept marriage. Apparently there are poor lost souls who don’t want to be responsible for anything and give up their identity in exchange for a sense of belonging and the belief that this is what God requires of them. They all need some serious mental health work and some other religious guidance. But at least the seem to be adults.
Ron,
Let’s hope the legal Mrs. D. is reading this and developing a spine!
That might be for the second wives, I dont know how long Deese was married to his first wife and if this was ever discussed to her at that time. Not enough info, but I’m guessing he didnt find her on that website and took her in that way with the understanding she knew what she was walking into.
And it was pretty stupid of Deese to promote an illegal activity while employed by the government, how assinine can one be?
Yeah, his NPD probably got the best of him.
Yes, Stamp, it does seem to be second wives primarily on that sites.
Ron,
He lost his job, but looking at his behavior it was probably just a matter of time.
The fact his “wives” are victims of that circumstance can be directly blamed on not only “his” behavior but “theirs” as well.
As you say, she should have divorced him straight away and then no worries, mate!
BTW Warren, Raymond, Allan, Mike and Leroy lost their jobs recently too. Polygamy is a risky sport!
If Deese had only been reading his own website, he would know its not an uncommon fate,
( the latest of which was that Huge McSaga )
But there are others, to wit:
“DANGER, WARNING!” (cue missed by Mista Deese evidently)
“To make a very long and complicated story short, my wife of 32 years left me in February 2006. Because of the way she left me (part of the long part of my story), I was also asked to leave my position with the church in Germany.
I was fired because, as one of the elders of the church told the congregation, “…he believes that polygamy is within God’s will.” We were divorced in early 2007 and I am now married to a very spiritual Bulgarian woman. I am currently teaching English at a university in Bulgaria.
So, please be very careful about how you tell others about your interest in biblical polygyny, especially your spouse.”
” Just professing your belief in Christian Polygyny should not have created the end of your marriage. ”
One of the responses, in which, supposedly to help this guy, they are trying to say that there must have been other problems in the marriage. Like, no big loss, she was a feminist anyway.
Well, it sure would be enough for me. If my husband said he really believed in slavery and that God endorsed it, I’d have similar doubts about being with him. It’s a very basic difference in world view that should certainly not be ignored.
I read some of that website also and the 2nd wife is SweetLisa, if I remember correctly. She was on there alot but didn’t see the 1st wife on there much at all.
Betty is absolutely correct about the women on that site. One day Lisa told a story about her childhood. The purpose of her story was to help her get past the fact that she worked but was required to turn over ALL her check to him. I also believe she moved to Texas and the 1st wife stayed behind with the kids. It was said the 1st wife would move with the kids when school was out.
Yes, there were probably other issues in the marriage which precipitated the divorce.
His sudden belief in the Biblical correctness of polygyny was simply presenting his wife with a veiled threat which made it plain to her that he intended to take another wife, and she should be submissive and accept it.
He presented her with a potentially unacceptable situation, and she bolted.
Can’t say I blame her.
The website now looks very different than it did a year and half ago.
I looked at it last night after reading about him and they are very actively looking for single/divorced mothers to take in to their families.
One guy posted one day about his relationship with his “slave” which was sexual of course but also he spoke about ownership of the slave. It was extremely disturbing and I stopped reading after that.
Mississippi Girl,
and when school let out, wife # 1 never showed up to move in…
Yes, Mississippi Girl, they are recruiting single unmarried mothers as concubines – these concubines are expected to provide sexual services for men, and babysitting and housecleaning services for wife # 1.
It is the same old story. Too many single/divorced women , too many children with no daddy and we need to save them all and make them polygamous wives.
My message to that is take care of the wife you have and quit lusting after more. Especially knowing the fact that they were not allowed to keep any money even for a coke or hamburger.
Betty
“holy doormat” – LOL – you do have a way with words.
I have been gone for a while so hello to EVERYONE 🙂
and I’m back. 🙂
The most comical thing is that this Christian polygamist men view their “marriages” to these divorced or unmarried mothers as a form of ministry. They speak about how they are sacrificing to provide their services as a spouse to a woman who otherwise would not have a husband.
How altruistic of them !
I had no idea, Christian polygamists, that marriage was an absolute requirement for women.
I thought St. Paul taught that the unmarried state was both blessed and an optimal state for the service of God.
Maybe these Christian polygamists need to read their New Testament.
From Deese #2 squeeze, Sweetlissa :
“I don’t want to sound like a broken record or anything, but we have been called to begin a church that is spirit-filled, poly-friendly, and teaches the whole bible. It is actually a denomination and eventually there will be churches planted all over the world.
We have been working out the details since December and our first actual meeting was January 10. We are having a big gathering on February 10, which is a Wednesday. The Sunday meetings are in Joshua TX. We hope to be in Ft. Worth soon, but right now we are meeting in a home.
We have approximately 5 different families that are in the area and we have had people drive from other parts of the state to join us. It is all very exciting.
SweetLissa”
I think they got a kink in their hose, probably not going worldwide now.
http://biblicalfamilies.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1297&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=friendly
With three marriages and two divorces in my history, I must say that turning over your whole paycheck to someone else is a huge red flag.
The best scenario is, of course, if you trust each other, work well together and can have joint finances. I do all the bill paying, account maintenance and investment research. My husband has full access to all accounts and we discuss major investment decisions and make joint decisions. The budget has discretionary funds for each of us to spend no questions asked. I think it’s very important to self esteem that all adults need some cash of their own for which they do not have to account to anyone. We have basic rules about expenditures – like consult each other if you spend more than $200 on anything.
The second best is separate finances but shared expenses.
If either partner takes over all the money, makes all the decisions and does not provide transparency, you not only have a form of abuse (it’s listed as abuse on the pamphlets at the women’s shelter) you can have a real nightmare if you split or the money controller dies. The surviving spouse can have a very rude awakening along with grief.
Part of this narcissism which allows polygyny is that the man never seems to consider that anything could happen to him to make him infertile, not virile or not a good provider. Death, illness, unemployment or major changes in his chosen field can and do happen to anybody.
I predict they will shut down their site from public viewing and require invitations or approval to read it. Which will sure slow down recruiting those single and divorced mothers.
I was wondering if the “ministry” to unwed mothers was based on watching how the FLDS rack up money by bleeding the beast. If the “second” “wives” are not legally married then they can keep on collecting money can’t they?
Dang
A freaking Prophesy right here – a couple months before he is crap canned he says many have had it done to them too.
”
Re: Getting the “Left foot of fellowship” over plural marriage
by DaPastor on Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:00 pm
Hey Dave,
My heart goes out to you brother. Many of us have had similar experiences. Blessings!”
http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1156&p=11453#p11453
It seems that the Polygamy lifestyle isn’t all its “Crack-piped” up to be!
HHG,
No doubt these Christian polygamists are scamming the welfare system as well.
Also, single mothers often have jobs. The stereotype of a single mother on welfare is actually a small percentage of actual single mothers. The typical single mother is divorced, has a job, is near 40 years old and has at least one teenage child.
These unmarried women don’t need the support of a man for financial reasons, obviously Betty – that is just the rationalization of the Christian polygynist men.
Dressing up their sexual desire for multiple partners in the guise of righteous behavior.
I agree, Keep Sweet. Just as the women can find salvation on their own without the sexual ministry.
If they really wanted to help, they could offer money, food, clothing and support to women’s shelters or other relief programs.
They do not have to have intercourse with these women in order to offer assistance.
They do not have to have intercourse with these women in order to offer assistance.
—————————————-
Are you saying women don’t have needs?
Are you saying women don’t have needs?
———
You mean, women need to be exploited?
Because rolling it all up together – so that, if you want the support, money etc. you’re also in for sexual intercourse – is nothing more than thinly-veiled prostitution.
Thank you, ellie.
Alinusara,
I’m sure those “needs” you are referring to could be met equally well by a single unattached man.
Yeah, you want a roof over your head, clothes and three squares, expect to join the harem and put out!
The so-called Christian Polygamy Movement is yet another example of how untaught and unstable men manipulate and twist the Scriptures to their own destructions.
The real measure of right and wrong is God’s will and is revealed in His inspired word. To take “descriptions of human practice” as trumping God’s clearly expressed view on the subject of polygamy is not only questionable; it has often lead to gross theological error and immoral practice.
It has lead men to claim as virtuous that which is contrary to God’s created order, examples of which in Scripture have proven to lead to tragedy.
DaPastor Deese, Exhibit A
I think some of it is a way to dodge the religious implications of divorce. The first wife becomes a duty that the husband is maintaining and the second wife is the new love interest. A lot of Islamic polygyny works this way. And then the unscrupulous men just forget to keep up with their duty and the first family sinks into poverty and neglect.
Polygamy is so fascinating in all of its dysfunctional and disasterous manifestations.
At least slaves know they are slaves and can therefore accept it.
Stamp,
Your post at 1:36 pm is indeed eloquent.
What a wonderful synopsis.
Stamp always has a gift for eloquence – even if it’s humorously ironic.
For anyone who is really serious about not getting their thoughts read – you can now get an aluminum foil chair.
I think some of it is a way to dodge the religious implications of divorce. The first wife becomes a duty that the husband is maintaining and the second wife is the new love interest. A lot of Islamic polygyny works this way. And then the unscrupulous men just forget to keep up with their duty and the first family sinks into poverty and neglect.
——
Yes, polygamy seems to go hand in hand with loneliness and poverty, especially for the older wives, who tend to have those needs (the ones that that Alin mentioned) neglected.
After all, when you’re on a rota with multiple other women, most of whom are younger and “newer” to your husband than you, you’re likely looking at a lot of nights alone.
Honestly, there is not a whole big difference between the man who pays to support multiple mistresses and some of these Christian polygamists. Sure there is the religion factor and as Betty says the holy doormat issue, but a doormat is a doormat regardless of whether it’s a “holy” one or not.
I think the main differences are that, with a man supporting mutiple mistresses:
– the mistresses or girlfriends are “allowed” (so to speak) to be outraged / jealous / angry about the other women the man is involved with
AND/OR
– it’s clear that it isn’t a long-term, comitted situation and the mistresses are more able to pursue happiness in another relationship whenever they feel so inclined.
Whereas in religiously-motivated polygamy, it always seems like:
– the wives are supposed to hide their negative feelings like a good little Stepford wife / offer up their suffering to God / constantly strive to be happy and form a big nonlesbian lovepile with their co-wives
AND
– divorce is not an option. This is expected to be a permanent domestic situation that will produce a lot of half-siblings.
Ron,
Nice chair, I also liked the tin foil office space on that page!
IRT the guy with mistresses, usually (as in Tigers case) these are kept secret from the wife, and indulged in by guys who somehow afford it and there is typically lies involved.
That said, I think the guys who dream up theology supporting polygamy are lying too, so its just another flavor of fraud.
I think there are several reasons why its still, and will stay illegal, but the religious aspect is probably far down the list.
If you’re looking for a real-life example of the religiously-motivated polygamy I mentioned, I stumbled across this blog this other day:
http://www.polyganyfirstwife.com/index.htm
It’s called “Coping with Polygamy: A First Wife’s Jihad” and deals with one Islamic woman’s experiences when her husband married wife #2.
It’s pretty hard to read sometimes (she talks about crying literally every day and sample chapter titles include “The Shock”, “The Depression” and “Effect on the Children”) but I thought it was enlightening to read how one woman struggled with her feelings and eventually reached a sort of weary resignation through her faith.
I thought St. Paul taught that the unmarried state was both blessed and an optimal state for the service of God.
…………………………..
Yes he did teach that. And Christians are supposed to use Christ as their role model for how to behave. There is no biblical or historical evidence that Jesus was married.
The most Christlike person I can think of is Mother Theresa. She fully lived her life in the service of others.
The men of the FLDS live their lives for the purpose of getting their own personal planet to rule over.
Of course they have the right to believe whatever they want, but it makes me cringe that they claim to follow Christ, because they are exceedingly UN Christlike in their selfishness.
They do not have to have intercourse with these women in order to offer assistance.
—————————————-
Alin: Are you saying women don’t have needs?
…………………………..
Get over your kinky fantasies about women, Alin. We aren’t the gender that’s obsessed with getting laid.
Thanks Ellie for posting the link to the diary of the first wife living in Islamic polygamy.
Here is a link to a medical research article on the effect of polygamy on first wives and their children in UAE.
http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:ipayQoVPa3kJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=20000000000&as_vis=1
I don’t know, Anon, when I was twenty years younger, I was pretty much obsessed with getting laid. The idea of being 25, healthy and only having sex every 5th day is pretty horrible to me. Not ever being able to have sex just cause you are in the mood right now that would be depressing. The idea of being 25, being on a rotation with other women AND the man is 60…no way. I’d self destruct. Maybe even be destructive of others.
heehee Betty…. not that you asked, but I was 32 before I married. In my younger days, my best gal-pal and I used to have a sisterly competition. NOT what you’re thinking —HA
We’d *compete* to have the best bikini body by summer time. Gal-pal was from the Texas Gulf Coast…so we made many beach trips over the course of many years. It was not so much an obsession to get laid as it was to be the ones mostly likely to have choices if we wanted to. (wink)
And ultimately that is at the core of my loathing for what happens to these young girls — their right to choose is stolen from them — then they have some wobble-sac old bast*rd writing to Warren to ask if he “still has to have sex with them after menopause”. As you said,”I’d self destruct. Maybe even be destructive of others.”
texas mom, i’d leave a path of destruction in my wake if i ever had to be part of this group. i’m not sure i’d last one day cuz i’d be pretty blunt with what they could do with their kitchen chores and there are a few that would need to wear bags over their head to go along with their “pure” undies.
you are so right about free choice and that being denied to these girls. they can say they aren’t being forced all they want, but they have no clue what it is to make a free choice. it’s no wonder why some go beserk when they actually get out in the real world. they are hit with so many decisions all at the same time and they aren’t any more prepared for it than a 5 year old would be.
ellie said: After all, when you’re on a rota with multiple other women, most of whom are younger and “newer” to your husband than you, you’re likely looking at a lot of nights alone
April Rotation:
1 1st wife
2 The new sister wife
3 The other new sister wife
4 Sister wife over there
5 Sister wife next door
6 Real sister-sister wife
7 Cousin-sister wife
8 Sister wife down the hall
9 Sister wife across the hall
10 Niece, a reassigned sister wife.
11 repeat for the next 20 days
I asked B—- A—- one day if she thought,the incoveints that the children went through with the CPS in Texas, was worth it to set even just one young girl free from a life time of rape.she siad, she didn’t think it was worth it. WOW
Freemen,
(admin edit)
By the way, unless someone has been raped, or administered medical care to someone who has been raped, they have no idea what they are talking about when referring to the horrors of that crime.
ProudTexan said: “…they are hit with so many decisions all at the same time and they aren’t any more prepared for it than a 5 year old would be.”
true dat. To be honest, I’m fairly certain (opinion only) that most of the FLDS girls would still choose polygamy at age 18, the indoctrination being bone deep at that point — but the households would be vastly different. By 18, even the mousiest have a sense of self-identity.
….and another thing I’ve not seen mentioned so much is that I’ve no doubt that plenty of the older wives welcome the chance to “NOT be the one chosen that night”.
mc1199 – your list made me laugh – 4. Sister wife over there
um yeah…that one, no, no, the one on the left, behind ‘real sister-sister wife’
oh yeah and ProudTexan’s: “there are a few that would need to wear bags over their head to go along with their “pure” undies.”
Just a few….c’mon, in the real world, no amount of eHarmony could land anyone of these losers a date, much less get laid. Picture PhatWillie getting his grove on….wait don’t, sorry about that. sorry.
er… groove
I didn’t recived one becouse the FLDS leaders(Warren Jeffs) wouldn’t allow it.so your going to have to forgive me.and by the way i’m working on it.
Glad to hear you have left and are pursuing your education
TexasMom said:
“I’m fairly certain (opinion only) that most of the FLDS girls would still choose polygamy at age 18, the indoctrination being bone deep at that point…”
Your opinion is spot-on. Most would and do.
————
“….and another thing I’ve not seen mentioned so much is that I’ve no doubt that plenty of the older wives welcome the chance to “NOT be the one chosen that night”
I can authoritatively confirm that one, too. BTDT
————
My 2¢ for today.
Anyone who would equate “inconvenience” with rape has got some hate going on.
Like it’s not as if we normals don’t see through the code words.
Freemen
Thanks for the note. That shows to me, that people there dont think much of women suffering, I guess its supposed to be “their duty” to be raped.
Well. with a dozen men going to prison over it, it will hopefully change things for the better – I guess having Warren out of everyones hair has to be a relief!
IRT that list, I had heard that sex was only supposed to happen when the woman was ovulating.
Now, another thing I’ve heard, is that women living together cycle together. (true or not I dont know – I guess sometimes yes and sometimes no)
Anyway, with 10 wives, if they cycled together, bubba would have a busy 2 days and then rest for 28?
Yes, Stamp, women who live together cycle together.
Bubba would have to be very busy for a restricted period of time each month.
Yes, it’s very well documented that women who live together cycle together. It is triggered by pheromones. It is called “the harem effect”, oddly enough.
From what I have read, such restrictions are honored more in the breach than in the observance.
Women cycling together is pretty common; certainly not 100%. Just think of the competition among the women. If a woman is foolish enough to think sex equals love, she is starved.
———
Stamp, you’re right about sex only during ovulation. It is called the Law of Chastity (or was in my day). I wonder if WSJ still teaches it like his father did – and if he does how he enforces it. Is it strictly followed? Ricockulous!
It IS followed in families who want to be considered (by god) most pure and holy. We tried in our family and failed miserably. Sex for pleasure! Yippeee!
http://www.2wives.com/
I would think the men would take care of the women off cycle just to get peace in the house. Well, the good men would.
Stamp, you’re right about sex only during ovulation. It is called the Law of Chastity (or was in my day). I wonder if WSJ still teaches it like his father did – and if he does how he enforces it. Is it strictly followed? Ricockulous!
———-
I think Carolyn Jessop talks about this in Escape. From page 225:
“Warren’s expanding influence over our lives spread into the bedroom. He took sex away from the community by decreeing that it could only be used for procreation. We had to keep track of when we ovulated and sex could occur only at that time. Then we had to wait a month to see if we were pregnant before we could have sex again.
….
“This new ruling gave Warren Jeffs more power over them. If their wives complained to Jeffs that they were being disobedient, their husbands could be kicked out of the FLDS.
“But there was still a catch: even if a women talk on her husband, it could still backfire. If Warren liked her husband, he could take his side through a loophole Jeffs called “the power of inspiration.” God could act directly in a family by inspiring the husband. So if a husband was inspired to have sex with his wife when she wasn’t ovulating, then Warren would argue that God knew this was best for that man’s family and the woman could be seen as being in rebellion and face consequences. The bottom line was that Warren was gaining complete control over our lives; he could make the rules but also manipulate them to his advantage.”
Good? Well, yes, in our gentile vernacular. But in theirs?
Don’t know how it’s working in Warren’s World (of followers, that is). His virility might be in ED hell now.
Ahh, yes, Ellie. I’d forgotten what Carolyn said there in her book.
But I still wonder if or how well it’s realistically being practiced.
E.Texas
Are you saying Warren is a “Lame Duck”..?
HA HA
ellie, it sounds to me like the whole point is to have the women desperately horny all the time and to have the men totally satiated all the time.
LOL… Yes, Stamp… only I’d replace “Duck” with another (similar) word.
Okay, Perhaps I’d better get busy doing something more useful around here. 😀
ET
LOL
How true!
You know, all along, we have been calling polygyny slavery and the apologists have been telling us that we were wrong. Reading this:
http://biblicalfamilies.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=888
the woman opening the topic says that the real meaning of biblical marriage is that the man owns the woman but the woman does not own the man. Then they all come along and agree with her. So, in effect, this is a form of slavery that the slave consents to. The bizarre thing to me is that this woman goes on to say that she’s mad at society for duping her, saying that it’s a natural law that our culture lies about. I find that even more bizarre. It also makes me really angry, because without the strong fight of many brave women to get legal and financial rights, she would not have the right to chose that life style. It would have been forced upon her because she was not allowed to have a job, or vote, or own property. Ungrateful witches. I stood in picket lines for them and took jobs where I was the only woman! And then they accuse me/us/society of LYING. What horse patooty!
The women on that website have serious self esteem issues.
Is it really that simple? There seems to be something else at work here; giving up responsibility? wanting a sense of belonging at any cost? what?
DaPastor Deese agrees! Yeah, he hadnt thought about it, being a chaplain and all, but it sounds good to him!
“by DaPastor on Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:45 am
Beta,
I have never quite looked at it from the angle you have shared. Very interesting! I suppose many feminists would have a real hard time with what you shared, but from a pure Biblical perspective – wow! Great insight!”
Some people will put up with anything just to say they are married, or to avoid divorce, Betty.
I’m reminded of the blues song:
“I can do bad by myself.”
Brooke twittered this link regarding Mark Shurtleff’s view on the Salt Lake City Weekly “Newspaper”:
http://utahag.blogspot.com/2010/03/salt-lake-city-weekly-tabloid.html
It says in part:
“Writer Ed Grabianowski stated, “In a highly regarded newspaper like the New York Times or Washington Post, the facts in a news story are meticulously checked and confirmed with multiple sources (when everything goes as it should). Editors and writers conform to journalistic standards and work hard to maintain an overall sense of objectivity. Tabloids don’t seem to follow any of these rules.””
So….is Brooke ever going to wake up and smell the coffee and realize all her PR spin article on the FLDS belong in a publication like the “Enquirer” and she would never make it as a “journalist” at the New York Times or Washington Post?
I like the use of “twit” rather than “tweet”.
As I told a friend recently, lots of twits tweet…seems to work well in this instance, too.
Brooke could never cut it at the NY Times.
She is not of that caliber.
She does not check her facts out well enough prior to publication.
She would, in short order, be fired.
She’d never be hired.
BTW, for anyone who follows “Lost in Poligville” his latest entry is really great!
http://peanutheadinpoligville.blogspot.com/2010/03/cold-beer-on-friday-night.html
Rebecka you should check it out!
I guess the poligville blog will end soon as he is moving to St. George.
Ex-millionaire polygamist deep in debt
Winston Blackmore lists liabilities of $5.68 million and assets of $867,000
By Daphne Bramham, Vancouver Sun
April 1, 2010
Canada’s best known polygamist Winston Blackmore was once an influential businessman in southeastern British Columbia with fancy cars, a plane and assets of more than $6 million.
As the bishop of Bountiful, a community outside Creston, he had access to politicians even though he and other members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints didn’t hide their multiple wives.
Yet few locals complained. Bountiful’s buying power helped float the Creston economy.
But everything’s changed. Blackmore is no longer the FLDS bishop, although he remains spiritual leader to about half of Bountiful’s 1,000 residents — most are family members and more than 100 of them are Blackmore’s children.
His companies teeter on bankruptcy. His nearly $6 million in debt means he can’t get a $100,000 loan to pay his legal bills, and neither could his son, Jacob, who tried on his behalf.
At least that’s what Blackmore says in an affidavit filed in B.C. Supreme Court to support his request that taxpayers pay for his participation in a reference case before the B.C. Supreme Court that will determine whether the anti-polygamy law is constitutional. The case has already attracted nine interveners, the majority of whom oppose polygamy.
Last week, Chief Justice Robert Bauman reserved judgment on Blackmore’s request for a blank cheque to cover his legal fees as well as equal status to the attorneys-general of B.C. and Canada and the court-appointed “amicus.”
Both of Blackmore’s requests are unprecedented.
But this case is all about business as unusual, from the issue itself to the reference being heard in a trial court to his lawyer Joe Arvay trying to keep Blackmore’s affidavit attesting to his “impecuniousness” secret without asking for a court order to have it sealed.
Even at more than 100 pages, Blackmore’s affidavit, says Veronica Jackson of the B.C. Attorney-General’s Ministry, is “woefully insufficient,” “meagre and incomplete.” One glaring omission is the names of family members with whom Blackmore “shares a degree of financial interdependence.”
By his accounting, the former millionaire polygamist now has debts and liabilities of at least $5.68 million and assets of only $867,000.
Two of his companies are under bankruptcy protection. Another he expected would have been foreclosed on in February, although the court documents have yet to be filed.
His biggest debt is owed to taxpayers. Since 2000, the Canada Revenue Agency claims Blackmore has bilked taxpayers out of $4.3-million worth of income tax and GST, both personally and through J.R. Blackmore & Sons Ltd, the holding company that he controls. An appeal date in federal tax court has yet to be set and, until it’s decided, interest on the $4.3 million is compounding.
For tax purposes, Blackmore argues that he and his family ought to be treated as a congregation. In his affidavit, he contends that although he and others in the congregation have property listed in their own names, they have all sworn oaths to hold it in trust for the community.
In addition to disputed back taxes, Blackmore claims debts of just under $1.4 million, including $600,000 to GE Capital, $299,000 on a mortgage for one company’s buildings and land and more than $200,000 to Arvay, the lawyer who helped get polygamy charges against Blackmore quashed in 2009. To reduce Arvay’s bill to $200,000, the affidavit says a Blackmore family member has already mortgaged property outside Bountiful.
There’s more. Blackmore says he owes $52,000 on credit cards, $43,000 to his tax lawyer and $37,000 on his pickup truck. But there are no supporting documents.
Somewhat modestly, Blackmore says in the affidavit that he has “a large family … I have 40 of my own children under the age of 18,” adding “I help to support them.”
Blackmore doesn’t say who the mothers are. On his 2007 and 2008 income tax returns filed in the court, he lists Jennifer Johnson as his common-law spouse. She was one of 19 women named in Blackmore’s indictment for polygamy.
His personal income in 2008 was $83,220 and $58,480 in 2007, while Johnson’s sole income was $4,500 in government child benefits in 2008 and $3,500 in 2007.
Of course, all 40 Blackmore children under 18 are eligible for child benefits. Assuming that all of the mothers claimed his income -which is unlikely but would probably more than offset the total of what they earned -the family could be getting at least $88,000 a year in child benefits.
Blackmore does admit to collecting tithes of up to $2,000 a month “but mostly I manage labour contributions.” There’s no indication where the tithes go.
But as government lawyers have pointed out, information is missing from the affidavit and Blackmore has not been questioned about the information.
At best, this is a snapshot of his finances.
Even since the affidavit was filed, both his tax lawyer and Arvay have done work for him.
In addition to representing Blackmore in B.C. Supreme Court last week, Arvay recently filed a civil action claiming Blackmore was wrongfully prosecuted and had his Charter rights violated when he was charged with one count of polygamy in 2009.
Blackmore is seeking an undisclosed sum for legal fees, economic loss, “pain and suffering from mental distress, anxiety and public embarrassment” as well as general, aggravated, punitive and special damages.
The B.C. government’s response is that “any damage suffered … was the result of the plaintiff’s own criminal conduct.”
Of course, the government has never proved criminal conduct and it is now in court trying to prove that the polygamy law is constitutional.
That’s where Blackmore wants to be as well -at the front of the courtroom exerting his influence just like in the old days when he might have been able to pay for it.
dbramham@vancouversun.com
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/millionaire+polygamist+deep+debt/2752341/story.html
As I told a friend recently, lots of twits tweet…seems to work well in this instance, too.
mc1199 said this on April 1, 2010 at 3:40 PM
Thanks mc1199, I’m LMAO at your quip.
I thought that I should let you all know that a body was pulled from a pond in Colorado City this afternoon, waiting for more details.
child or adult?
adult woman
It was the body of an adult woman.
ntruth – Please keep us updated if you hear anything more, and thank you for posting.
ntruth,
any updates available?
I checked texaspolygamy and the last comment from Ruth was on 3/31 just before midnight. She was talking about how they all want to kill her, but that’s not really unique so I don’t know if it’s meaningful or not. Hope it’s not her.
ntruth–oh my…let us know what you find out.
I just heard on the news that a young boy–15–in a very nearby town took his own life because of bullying..very..very sad.
No “rumspringa” to Boston for that one.
Yes, Betty, that was my first thought too. I hope Ruth is okay.
And thanks for the heads up about Lost’s post, Sadie. I read it. I don’t think he’s the one moving to St. George, though. I thought it was a friend.
“I just heard on the news that a young boy–15–in a very nearby town took his own life because of bullying..very..very sad.”
It’s terrible. I took my son out of school in the 8th grade because of bullying and I’ve never regretted it. I hate what adults let children do to each other. There’s no excuse for not holding these kids accountable for their nastiness. I wonder about the parents as well as the teachers in these situations.
I looked around SLTribune for a mention of a drowning, nothing came up.
A Easter Message from
TITUS 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared,
3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
3:7 that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
ME
I see Winston receiving reimbursement for that case that went forward even though the prosecutor hired two, I believe, special prosecutors who recommended against it. That’s fair enough.
I don’t however see him receiving reimbursement for pushing a political agenda on Canada’s Supreme court. Maybe travel cost if he is subpoena to testify and a court appointed attorney but that’s about it.
Happy Easter all and God bless.
i am stunned. john forsythe has died. i loved him as “charlie”
Happy Easter to you too Alinusara (or shall I call you Pliggy?)
Two Years After Raid, Polygamist Sect Leaders Are ‘Nervous’
Former Sect Members Applaude 75 Year Sentence for Man With Child Brides
By EMILY FRIEDMAN
April 2, 2010
http://abcnews.go.com/US/years-passed-raid-polygamist-sect-texas/story?id=10262413
Watch the video…..Marie was one of Raymond Jessop wives.
Marie was one of the smiling milk maids in the National Geo story.
John Forsythe looked just like my dad, or my dad looked just like him
yeah info gal, sally who is mother to raymond and leroy’s victims is also featured with her older daughter. both sally and daughter are currently married to wendell nielsen.
Well Ive searched news sources, and can’t find where any woman was pulled out of a pond in colorado city,, are yall sure it wasn’t an april fools day joke? cruel one for sure if not true
No joke, I was there and informed the Mohave County Sheriff Dept.
ntruth, if you were there, isn’t there more you can tell us?
I don’t really know that much. When I arrived the CC fire truck and ambulance were already there. Two guys rowed out to the middle of the pond and retrieved the body. I only got a glimpse of it as it was loaded into the ambulance, which left CC headed toward Hurricane. The Mohave Sheriff Dept. is investigating but won’t tell me anything.
Thank you for that, ntruth. I do realize the difficulty.
Isn’t the Mojave Sheriff’s department controlled by the FLDS?
No Anon, the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office (Arizona) is NOT controlled by the FLDS. It is the Colorado City Police Dept. and the Hildale Police Dept. that are controlled by the FLDS.
It is debatable what influence the FLDS have on the Washington County (Utah) Sheriff’s Office. Fortunately, Washington County Sheriff Kirk Smith is FINALLY not running for re-election.
wow, check the Alexa stats….
Cat
Yeah, the Alexa status bar in Firefox includes a graphical representation. It’s this long flat line (with a few very small spikes) followed by a sudden springing to life.
People in Mohave County have been told the person was not dead and in fact survived.
Yep, contact in Mohave County says the person was alive and is well. Contact says there is no reason not to believe the source, who reported cost and time investment in rescue efforts.
Boots,
Was it accidental ( such as a swimming accident ) or intentional near drowning ? ( attempted suicide or homicide )
Cat
You’ll obviously be in charge of the FLDS Texas peer reviewed article entitled “Use of Alexa in the treatment of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.”
Absolutely Ron. It will be entitled ” An Open Label Phase 1 Clinical Trial of Alexa in the Treatment of NPD.”
I’ll make you second author, it will look terrific on your curriculum vitae.
I’m all over it.
Gee my Resume/CV needs some updating and revamping.
Does posting truthful facts on Internet blogs count?
Does connecting the general public with links to legally and logically verifiable facts count?
If so, then can I become one of the Alexia statisticians?
Then please pick me. I’m not a Census counter, but I can still do math. PLEASE pick me!
My CV/resume and I thank you!
And may the Easter Bunny drop many yummy candy treats in your basket.
(Hey, can I buy your votes with chocolate?)
Easter Bunny anon.
hey ron – the appallant filed a motion to expedite in the raymond jessop appeal. what’s that mean? the court reporter’s record isn’t even due until june 10.
Easter Bunny Anon,
You are most welcome !
PT
It means basically what it says he’s trying to get the appeal process moving quicker. Since the search and seizure issues will be the same across all the appeals, I’m sure as a group the FLDS want to expedite Raymond’s appeal.
There is nothing in the appellate rules that covers this situation, so I don’t know what sort of ruling the 3rd COA would make.
They can always pay to get the reporter record faster which would greatly expedite the process.
Another issue on the Raymond Jessop appeal – under the Rules the reporter’s record is normally due 120 days after the sentence is imposed. So that would be 120 days from back in early November 2009 which would put it due in March rather than the June date listed on the 3rd COA website.
I think her record is due April 8.
I dont like this theme,, like the old one better
FLDS Texas,
I am attempting to adjust to the new format.
Let me get back to you on whether or not I like it, because I’m not sure yet.
I freaked out momentarily there. I reloaded my screen from last night and all of a sudden everything turned blinding white. I felt like I was on the top floor of the FLDS temple.
I agree with Deputy Dog. This theme stinks!
I hate the black background of the other one. It’s really hard to read. But I DO like the way the other one is laid out.
wow, the Alexa Stats continue to improve !
Dont adjust too much because it’s going to change again. We’ll cycle through some different examples
Ron,
I have an idea for our second peer reviewed publication – we should investigate how and when male Christian polygynists found that they were “called by God” to seek another wife.
According to this website, a substantial number of these narcissists found this “calling” when their wife was pregnant…. hmm, can you say “Oedipus Wrecks…..”
http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=20&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10
LOL Cat… Yes, I can say it: “Oedipus Wrecks…..” 😀
Love puns & play on words!
Can’t say I’m thrilled with this awfully white theme… l’ll wait to see what other choices you present.
It’s all about CHOICE!
Yes East, we know that Mormons engage in polygamy for purposes of exaltation, and Moslems engage in polygamy to help poor widows, but no one to date has done a research on Christian polygynists and what motivates them.
Thus far, the lead “motivator” appears to be their wife’s pregnancy. See the Biblical Families website.
Number 2 motivator : their wife divorces them because she realizes the man in question is a patriarchal jerk.
Since New Testament grounds for divorce (namely adultery) do not exist, these men are not truly “divorced” according to Biblical standards.
Therefore, these men “discover” that they are permitted to be polygynous.
How convenient for them !
“called by God”, hmmmmm? I think it’s the one eyed god doing the calling, myself.
It appears that ole Warren the felonious profit is going on trial in November 2010, IMO it will be an open & shut case for the jury, the big question will be how long he will be sentenced.
Another issue is how well the media national & local will cover Jeffs trial, because the their will be another polygamist trial going on at the same time, the trial of Brian David Mitchell, which because of change of venue will be held possibly in Oklahoma or Colorado.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14663396
From article: “well as plan to file for a change of venue. A judge would choose the venue within the states covered by the 10th Circuit: Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Kansas and Wyoming”
IMO the public and the media will pay more attention to the Mitchell trial, because the story involves a beautiful teen from a wealthy family, with lurid details of sex, drugs etc. And Americans are fascinated by stories involving the wealthy, celebrities etc. http://www.leagle.com/unsecure/page.htm?shortname=infdco20100308829
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700016028/Mitchell-trial-set-for-Nov-1.html
Both cases will expose IMO the evils of fundamentalist cults & their leaders. Another indicator is that their was much more coverage of the Mitchell trial date than that of Jeffs.
http://www.mohavedailynews.com/articles/2010/03/28/news/local/doc4baef390e9846252962598.txt
I hope Jeffs attorneys file for change of venue, believe that having trial in Tucson or Phoenix would be better than Kingman IMO.
Yes Betty, it is the ONE EYED GOD that is doing the calling !
Anyone know how the Census was done at the FLDS at the Crick or the Texas compound ?
Just am curious.
C-M said– “Anyone know how the Census was done at the FLDS at the Crick or the Texas compound ?”
…can’t say, but I’m guessing they answered nothing. The census is required by law and we all know that U.S. laws don’t apply to them. 😉
“Oedipus Wrecks…..” Boy, catwhisperer, that is funny!
Your statement completely sums up how I felt when I had to read “Caligula” by Albert Camus TOTALLY IN FRENCH when I was in college. After trying to translate Camus’ Greek tragedy, I just wanted to go poke my eye out.
I was an absolute “Oedipus Wreck(s)”
hmmmm I wonder if the TCWW will stop paying for home remodeling, cell phones for “the wives” and other FLDS perks?
Travel perks will dry up in water districts
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14809355
A Texan I think you are right on target with the media being more interested in the Brian David Mitchell polygamy child rape trial than Warren Jeffs’ Arizona polygamy child rape case.
Neither the Deseret News nor the Salt Lake Tribune newspapers wrote a peep about Warren’s trial date FINALLY being set in Arizona – after 2 1/2 years he’s been incarcerated in Kingman awaiting trial.
Where is our only national polygamy beat reporter when we need her?
Her blog says “Brooke Adams covers polygamy for
The Salt Lake Tribune”
So, what have you been doing all week, Brooke? Certainly not writing about polygamy.
Well, the day is almost over, but I just want to say HAPPY 2nd ANNIVERSARY on the child abuse raid at the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, Texas.
HAPPY ANNIVERSARY FLDS CHILD MOLESTERS! Ya’ll finally got caught with your pants down!
To YFZ just to remind you that in Texas the age of consent is still 17, and you can only marry legally one spouse each at any given continuum same as in all 50 US States, should any of you choose legal rather than long sentences behind bars.
Oops, sorry about those TCWW perks drying up. But with 4 in jail and more on their way, they won’t need so many perks!!!
gosanangelo.com has up an oddball update on UEPT/FLDS, I don’t get why the writer was fed the odd bits without the history.
OOPS
“Wisan said he subpoenaed a company called Twin City Water Works after receiving complaints that the company wasn’t doing its job at the FLDS stronghold city of Hildale, Utah.
Wisan said they found $4.3 million worth of disbursement during a time when construction was said to be frozen in the twin border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., where many of the sect members live.
Wisan suspects that 50 percent of the funds were misappropriated and that some may have been used to do work at the YFZ Ranch.”
=============================
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/apr/03/flds-rips-trust-management/
@ Anon 10:14 pm :
Est – ce que vous avez lit “L”Etranger” par Albert Camus a l’universite ?
C’etait ma derniere aventure a la litterature francaise….
je deteste l’existentialisme.
catwhisperer, “Caligula” was the only work by Camus I read. That was enough to last a lifetime. It was a 20th century French literature class (everything in French) – Marcel Proust, Jean Paul Satre, authors like that. And I agree with you, I also detest existentialism.
Well, this site is now the top ranked FLDS related site in the WORLD according to Alexa.
FLDS Texas is ranked today in Alexa at 383,772
hughmcbryde.blogspot.com is ranked today in Alexa at 387,651
flds.ws is ranked today in Alexa at 388,300.
Well CONGRATULATIONS texasflds! Wow Ron it only took 4 days past your original test date for this site to become the #1 FLDS related site in the world.
They should start classes in existentialism by passing out anti-depressants.
Pharisee is all upset that someone edited his edits of the Wiki entry on the FLDS (about the stipulation/repressing of YFZ evidence in Arizona). He calls it VANDALISM. Bwahahaha!
O that’s funny Betty. Consider the source …
Well, the scary part about Huge McEgo trying to edit Wikipedia is that he trying to make is twisted version of reality and sell it as factual truth.
He’s saying because everyone agreed to suppress the evidence in Arizona that therefore the raid was illegal. That is simply wrong. There is nothing in the stipulation or the order that says anything of the sort.
I’ve actually given up trying to even communicate with him. You simply cannot talk sense into delusional idiots.
[Off topic…but I’m rockim and rollin in earthquakes today!! Holy cow..felt 4 so far.. the big one in Mex and sev more close by!] Woohoo, what a fun ride! Now, back to local programming!
Now Ron, you are making sense …. you cannot talk sense to someone who is obsessed, so don’t even bother….
and congratulations, your experiment has been a complete success!
hey FLDS Texas people! I would just like to say that I have been reading this blog for a while and love it. I did go to Boston this weekend, and it was AWESOME! anyway, count another kid who left the FLDS.
It’s a good thing to have the right to choose, yehaaaa.
Congratulations yehaaa6, and Happy Easter !
Yehaaaa I’m SO glad you’ve checked in with us, we’ve had concerns. Let us know, what’s next, ok?
I’m happy for you yehaaa6 and I hope all works out well for you.
Thought for the day:
“What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.” – Siddhattha Gotama aka “The Buddha”
yehaaa6, glad to hear it, and best of luck to you.
Yehaa,
ever since word came out that things blew up I have been thinking of you – so I am very glad that you are able to make choices that are good for you – let us know how it goes as you are still in my thoughts.
Thanks, Ron.
“Our life is the creation of our mind.”
True and lovely and exciting… for me.
Cryptic and disturbing… applying it to my zealous FLDS loved ones.
Huge McDelusion apparently feels that the traffic on this site is all manufactured. Doesn’t matter that the admins on this site keep having to roll over comments and that a large variety of people post here. Nooo, you guys are made up – manufactured if you will. You’re all automated bots that post from a “boiler room.”
I suppose you need to have a high dose of denial in order to maintain your narcissism.
Funny, when I used that argument on him re: Alexa site rankings, he became very angry and went off trying to prove to me that his rankings were meaningful. So, we use the same ranking tool and HIS rankings are meaningful and ours are Manufactured, even though there is a lot more evidence of traffic here (more posters, many more topics).
Oh, definitely. There is a lot of denial going on with the Pharisee.
His latest rant was actually hilarious, I never knew the lengths at which someone would go in an attempt to bluster and bully their way out of facts.
I think it stands as a shining example of “NPD in action”, kind of a “Testimony unto itself” if you will.
Oh, wait, Willie is good at trying to bluster and bully his way out of reality too.
I noticed he shut his trap when Leroy got sentenced though!
To YFZ just to remind you that in Texas the age of consent is still 17, and you can only marry legally one spouse each at any given continuum same as in all 50 US States, should any of you choose legal rather than long sentences behind bars.
—————————————————–
That’s why the bigamy charges may get dismissed. It appears that they only legally married one spouse.
Al
Cant you keep up? I mean, REALLY!?
yehaaa
Glad you made it to Boston! Any stories of your trip? We heard they had a little rain out there, how did that go?
“That’s why the bigamy charges may get dismissed. It appears that they only legally married one spouse.”
Not according to Texas laws on marriage they didn’t, Al. I know it galls you to live in a country which not only has laws but is willing to enforce them but both you and the FLDS will have to get used to that fact. Pretending to marry impressionable young girls is just as illegal in America as it is to rob a bank. Too bad Utah and Arizona haven’t fully joined with the United States, but maybe there’s hope now that Texas has shown them how it’s done.
Read the Texas Penal Code. Oh, I forgot. You don’t read any primary source of information.
Al
You trying to add to the “Deer Do It” list?
That excuse is probably already on there with about 75 other lame excuses that would make a judge and jury laugh at you!
75. They are only legally married to one wife, therefore, the other women are just swingers!
spinazi’s from the same rag, sez that 17 as age of consent cancels marriage age of 16 or vice versa or some such bull. O and Stamp it thinks you’re female and blackbird too, and I guess alewife and some others.
Amazing – yet another nut who doesnt have the nickle it costs to pay attention?
It needs to feel smarter else it is abusive. Skirting the rules. Whatever kind of troll that is. Usually the type that needs prison.
Really, if some person old, young, or otherwise physically or mentally incapacitated had spinazi for a keeper you can bet there’d be good reason to charge it with abuse.
Indeed the poster appears Medveckian.
It’s language is too clean and it’s smarter than mudpucky.
Do you “skirt the rules” dressed in long pastel garb?
The trip was good, and the weather was beautiful. I would never live in Boston, though :D. and the drivers and traffic are crazy.
yehaaa
Did you get to see any sights?
The drivers in Boston are the craziest I have seen in the US. Palermo, Sicily are the worst drivers I have seen anywhere.
Crazy accents too, but mostly from those who didnt finish college.
“Yuttehay”, an apparent FLDS poster who bounces around, evidently forgot or didnt know that Hugh calls the FLDS a “Satanic Religion”
Hmmm
But he offers this:
“For someone who dosen’t really know the FLDS, This blog “Modern Pharisee” Does a very good job.
Thanks Hugh, for you honest insite”
===================
I find that last sentence pretty friggen ironic!
Rape statistics in utah.
http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20100405/NEWS05/100405013/Health-Department–one-in-three-Utah-women-experience-sexual-assault
Hugh’s whole post on the site rankings was totally but unintentionally hilarious. We’re not really even a crowd of people but somehow we managed (in his vivid imagination) to cause a denial of service for WordPress! And then he makes fun of how no one here exists because we use aliases…and he’s talking to someone who is using an alias! You can’t buy that kind of humor!
Yeah, and then he cozies up to them after he calls them Satanic.
Of course, he hasnt mentioned that much lately, but its all on record.
I bet he has a “Boiler room” which his wife runs with several illegal aliens tying up several computers to up his Alexa stats.
Its gonna be tough at the next Pharisee meeting when they bring out the charts. He may have to have a talk with his staff.
Maybe a couple more Marty Braemer posts will make his stats zoom and then maybe not!
Read the Texas Penal Code. Oh, I forgot. You don’t read any primary source of information.
——————————————————-
Really? According to Texas’s own constitution a marriage is defined as a exclusive relationship between a man and a woman. They never purported to have an exclusive relationship.
Actually I read that rape statistics. I’m happy that the women in Utah are not frightened to report an assault.
Well, if you read the statistics, you know that only 12% of all women in Utah report an assault; and they still have more rape than any other state per capita.
Actually they estimate 88 percent of all women in the US don’t report an assault. It appears that in Utah they are more willing to report one. They must not be frightened by the state.
Al
“They never purported to have an exclusive relationship.”
Thats the problem, they purported to have a plural relationship.
OOOPS, thats illegal.
Actually, the constitution of Texas says nothing of the sort. It says “MARRIAGE. (a) Marriage in this state shall consist only of the union of one man and one woman.
(b) This state or a political subdivision of this state may not create or recognize any legal status identical or similar to marriage.”
So, if you purport to be married one man to one woman in two separate transactions, you have violated not only the bigamy law, but the constitution of the state of Texas. To say that it is not an illegal marriage because only a legal marriage could possibly be illegal is totally absurd and involves no logic whatsoever.
Alinusara, you didn’t read it very carefully.
“Other Utah data show:
• In 2006, one in eight women (12.4%) and one in 50 men (2%) reported they had experienced rape or attempted rape in their lifetime.
• In 2009, 8.2% of female high school students and 5.8% of male high school students in Utah reported they were physically forced to have sexual intercourse when they did not want to.
• Carbon, Salt Lake, Tooele, Uintah, and Weber counties had higher reported rates of rape than the state rate from 2002-2008.
• 78.7% of females who had been sexually assaulted reported that their first sexual assault occurred before their 18th birthday.
• Only 12.7% of sexual assault victims visit a doctor or medical center for an exam after the incident.
• Rape victims report a higher prevalence of major depression and dissatisfaction with life compared to non-victims.”
It says quite clearly that UTAH DATA shows that only about 12% of all rape victims report the assault. UTAH DATA. Not US DATA. You are jumping at the chance to excuse Utah and then reading into the article what you hope to see. Why the need to excuse Utah????
(b) This state or a political subdivision of this state may not create or recognize any legal status identical or similar to marriage.”
—————————————
Exactly my point. They didn’t use the state or a political subdivision of the state to create a marriage.
The article said ALL women not just women exclusive to Utah. I imagine not every assault or attempted assault is reported but it appears that victims in Utah are not frightened to come forward. I applaud them for that.
s
Alinusara,
No it does NOT appear that way. There is absolutely no data in that article to support or even to suggest that women in Utah report rape at a higher rate than in any other state. Going further, there is certainly no data to support any particular theory about why they might be reporting at a higher rate if that were true.
But you, seem to want to dismiss a serious problem of assault on women and children by jumping to a conclusion that isn’t there which conveniently negates any problem. WHY? What do you want to gain from jumping to a conclusion that isn’t there? It’s very obvious that the health department is operating under the assumption that the reporting rates are consistent.
Texas law defines common law marriage. Texas law has a bigamy offense. There is nothing in the constitution of Texas that makes it’s own bigamy offense null and void. The FLDS uses ceremonies, photos, wedding rings, anniversary celebrations and refer to each other as man and wife. That qualifies as a common law marriage under Texas law. Ergo, your argument is ridiculous. I would say nice try, but you weren’t even trying.
It reminds me of the polygamists who argue that the definition of marriage in Paul which says each wife has her own husband does not really mean that there is only one wife or that the wife has the same exclusive rights to the husband that the husband has to the wife, no matter that the passage reads exactly that to the rest of us. You could also argue that the first marriage is between one man and one woman and the second, common law marriage is also between one man and one woman. Seems fitting to hang them on their own rope.
“Exactly my point. They didn’t use the state or a political subdivision of the state to create a marriage.”
Tell that to your attorney. BTW, the last guy from the Zipper Ranch got 75 years. HIS attorney didnt help much, but I think it was his behavior that ultimately earned him his reward.
Because our marriage was illegal, then it can’t really be a marriage, and since we weren’t married, then you can’t charge us with bigamy. That’s basically the argument. And it’s total jibberish.
Okay, who shot Ruth in the head last week?
It helps when you smoke that special “Brand-O-Crack”.
Evedently didn’t kill her, but why don’t those people leave her alone?
DD
Whats up?
But you, seem to want to dismiss a serious problem of assault on women and children by jumping to a conclusion that isn’t there which conveniently negates any problem. WHY?
————————————————
Because it’s fun to tweak the author’s nose. That survey is pretty much worthless unless you compare it to other states. The only worthwhile statistic is the rate of reported rapes.
——————————————————–
Texas law defines common law marriage.
===========================================
Really? I just got done reading this.
“(a) Marriage in this state shall consist only of the union of one man and one woman.”
They never purported to have a union of one man and one woman.
——————————————————-
Tell that to your attorney. BTW, the last guy from the Zipper Ranch got 75 years.
==================================================
Yes he got 75 years for 1st degree rape of a child; nothing at all to do with bigamy.
The survey IS compared to other states. It says there are considerably more rapes in Utah than any other state.
Alin, how many of your other illogical ideas about how these abusers are going to get off have worked so far? Why do you think your batting average is going to improve?
The survey IS compared to other states. It says there are considerably more rapes in Utah than any other state.
=======================================
That is called speculation on the part of the author.
This is what empirical fact looks like:
According to UDOT data, Utah’s reported rape rate was 63.7 per 100,000 females in 2008, compared to the U.S. rate of 57.4 per 100,000,
==================================================
Alin, how many of your other illogical ideas about how these abusers are going to get off have worked so far?
===============================================
Pretty much none. I have to admit Judge Wathers have astounded me. Pfftt taking babies into custody in total violation of Texas’s very own state constitution.
Alin, how many of your other illogical ideas about how these abusers are going to get off have worked so far?
================================================
While I’m thinking about it, who said anything about getting off? You do know the defendant who argued that has a 7 year prison sentence don’t you?
“Yes he got 75 years for 1st degree rape of a child; nothing at all to do with bigamy.”
” You do know the defendant who argued that has a 7 year prison sentence don’t you?”
He got 7 years for pleading guilty to sexual assault of a child, that has nothing to do with bigamy. You’re the one saying that no one can be prosecuted for bigamy because one of the marriages is illegal and thus is not a marraige and thus is not bigamy. So you are suggesting that they will or they should get off in the state of texas for the charge of bigamy.
So you are suggesting that they will or they should get off in the state of texas for the charge of bigamy.
=====================================
Well to be precise I’m thinking not that they will get off on bigamy not because the marriages are illegal but because they never once purported to have a legal marriage.
Purport to marry, Al, purport to marry.
§ 25.01. BIGAMY. (a) An individual commits an offense
if:
(1) he is legally married and he:
(A) purports to marry or does marry a person
other than his spouse in this state, or any other state or foreign
country, under circumstances that would, but for the actor’s prior
marriage, constitute a marriage;
http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/25.01.00.html
=======================
IRT the 33 and 75 yr sentences, they were enhanced because the crimes were committed against minors the actors where prohibited from marrying.
So, if you are serving 75 years in prison for sex with someone who you are prohibited from marrying, you can tell yourself any freaking fairy tale you want, you are still in prison for life, holmes!
“Section 1.02. Amends Sections 22.011(e) and (f) of the Penal Code by providing that it
is an affirmative defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2) that the
actor was not more than three years older than the victim and at the time
of the offense was not a person who under Chapter 62 of the Code of
Criminal Procedure, had a reportable or adjudication for an offense and
the victim was a child of 14 years of age or older; and was not a person
whom the actor was prohibited from living under the appearance of being
married under Section 25.01. An offense under this section is a second
degree felony except it is a first degree felony if the victim was a person
whom the actor was prohibited from marrying.”
Click to access HB03006H.pdf
Al
“Well to be precise I’m thinking not that they will get off on bigamy not because the marriages are illegal but because they never once purported to have a legal marriage”
——-
The law doesnt say they have to purport to have a legal marriage – all they need is that pesky recipe card saying they are “Sealed for Time and Eternity”
“first degree felony if the victim was a person
whom the actor was prohibited from marrying.””
Allan Keate 33 years
Leroy Jessop 75 years
First degree felonies – Convicted and Sentenced
Illegal sex with a minor whom they are prohibited from marrying.
So, if you are serving 75 years in prison for sex with someone who you are prohibited from marrying, you can tell yourself any freaking fairy tale you want, you are still in prison for life, holmes!
=====================================================
So why are you so shook up that he might not be charged with bigamy?
Basically, that IS a bigamy conviction. With him serving 75 years, I say “NEXT!”
I thought that there were only two bigamy indictments. The guy who plead guilty got one and Wendel got one. But I’m all confused now, so not sure anymore.
Al
Let me reword it for you, so you can understand what it means:
“Illegal sex with a minor whom “they are prohibited from marrying”, (ie: a pretend fairy tale FLDS or Tony Alamo type Polygamist marriage, shall be punishable as a First Degree Felony”.)
Betty,
The wording in the statute doesnt say “Polygamy or Bigamy” in exact words, but thats what it means with these newer First Degree Felony crimes esp in relation to the child molesting charges.
The other “Bigamy” charges are indeed separate and address the specific Bigamy statute.
I was just reading some more of cupcake’s ignorance and lies over at mudpucky. She talks out her sphincter about Texas prisons and mentally ill, as if they’re not there because judged guilty of a crime and sentenced. Bobbleheads believe that dreck.
Here is a link showing the charges for Lehi Barlow Jeffs aka Allred,
Click to access Lehi_Barlow_Jeffs_indictment.pdf
He is not only getting charged with the First Degree Felony child molesting with a minor he is prohibited from “marrying”, he got the straight Bigamy charge as well.
Stamp, I didn’t really see many of the sights, we stuck to the convention pretty closely. but that’s ok, I did see a lot of awesome stuff, including the Video Game Orchestra, and I hung out with some awesome friends. I’m still in Vermont, flying back tomorrow. 🙂
I’m glad the weather broke for you, i guess they really got nailed up there a week ago.
Thats one long air flight isnt it?
Exchange between me and McNut:
McNut: The tale of the tape says someone turned on a bunch of computers and set them to that site, you announced it to me twice, with glee.
Me: Yeah Moron
The “bunch of computers” are the READERS of the site. That site has actual readers unlike the two or three you have over here.
Hmmm, think that last comment will get through the Narcissist filter?
There seems to be a rumor that a) an individual was pulled from a lake in the twin cities within the last week and said individual has survived and that b) said individual was Ruth who was “shot in the head”…..
Could somebody deny the rumors as I am worrying about Ruth
She has not updated on texaspolygamy as normal since last Friday.
although maybe “normal” is not the right word. Yeah, I’m worried, too.
O that’s bad, not poor Ruth, even if she is “alive and well”.
Ron
LMAO
And those two are three “people” over there? Not real! How do we know he isnt just talking to himself?
well on March 31 on Texas Polygamy, ruth talks about someone shot her in the head, but evidently it grazed her, cause she is still talking, said she didn’t know who hired the person to do it.
Who knows how to contact Ruth?
texaspolygamy is the best way. I know she has a cell phone but dont know the number
Ruth is being checked on regularly.
Someone shot her just above the eye with a BB gun. The BB lodged in her forehead, but she was not blinded by it.
I am still trying to confirm the rumor about someone being pulled out of a pond.
No one I have spoken with so far living in the community has heard anything about such an incident.
That is just amazing. WOW, I hope they catch the perp who did it!
Michael from Lost in Poligville has a short update on Ruth:
http://peanutheadinpoligville.blogspot.com/2010/04/ruth-is-fine.html
Probably some kid being careless with his BB gun. I hope his father gives him a good butt whooping.
Nah, al. I haven’t noticed any incidents of FLDS admitting wrongdoing or apologizing for wrongdoing.
Yet.
Yea A-LI-N, keeping on trying to make excuses for anything the FLDS do, maybe one day you will even be able to convince yourself that they can do no wrong.
Probably some kid being careless with his BB gun. I hope his father gives him a good butt whooping.
Of course, all the bad stuff said about Ruth would have nothing to do with some kid doing that – would it Al?
Why does Al think its a boy and not the old man who shot Ruth?
Wasnt it the cops who beat her up a month or so ago? Such brave soul-less people out there.
And this is in America?
It’s the use of the word “probably” and then making it sound like a childish prank with no harm to it that makes that statement annoying.
Why is a polygamist, religious kid, most likely from a family that has a hard time affording shoes, let alone “toy” guns, playing unsupervised in a populated area with a BB gun? And how probable is that that child would “carelessly” hit an old woman who is generally disliked and has very low status in the group. Even if this improbable explanation is what happened, it does not make it “careless” nor without malice.
Beating her up (twice) didnt work so now they take to shooting at her face?
Them is some Holy peeps out there, its really inspiring!
Awe, but Stamp – they’re a peace loving people…
I’m betting the most common use of BB’s in the creek is to make varmints go away, not as a child’s toy.
Ummmmmm, remember they don’t play with “toys”, the parents and kids said so themselves.
People in Southern Utah are asking for action. The guy has a good point. The LDS church was instrumental in rallying their followers to get California’s Proposition 8 (GLBT) bill defeated. That church can really make things happen … when they want to.
Church should use its influence
More than 160 years ago, the LDS Church brought polygamy from Nauvoo. Nearly 120 years ago it announced in the 1890 Manifesto to “refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.”
And yet this scourge of immorality, physical abuse, sexual abuse and haven for pedophiles remains.
The LDS Church has used its significant power and resources to influence either change or status quo based on its beliefs. Whether it is liquor laws, zoning or same-sex marriage, the church gets actively involved. As recently seen in California, the LDS Church can get involved and be effective.
Organizations, as well as individuals, must not only be responsible for what they create, but are also responsible for cleaning up the mess.
It is time for the LDS Church to bring all of its resources – political, financial and human - to rid our land of this scourge and save generations of women and children from nothing more than slavery.
What will it be?
Chuck Mollenkopf
Ivins
http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20100406/OPINION/4060314/-1/NEWSFRONT2/LETTERS-TO-THE-EDITOR
Why do people lie about things that are easy to check? Hugh is claiming that RonLawHouston edited his “contributions” to Wikipedia in the Court Rulings section. However, if you go to that entry and look at the History, you can see that RonLawHouston changed a different section of the piece, the Post Raid events, and this was done AFTER two other edits who specifically referenced Hugh’s changes in their history notes. Also, Hugh says that he entered a link to Mojave Court House, but is it just possible that he linked through his own blog to do that? Cause the edit that removed the external link said “remove EL to opinion blogs and controversial sites containing no factual information from knowledgeable sources) “. Also note that one of the editors of the piece, which reverted the notation to a previous version, is a BOT – a utility program within Wiki – which systematically removes links to suspect pages. I’m laughing my butt off that Hugh is building a conspiracy theory about how HATERS OWN this entry when it was actually the action of a computer daemon designed to protect Wiki from nutjobs like him! You can’t buy this kind of humor, as I said a day or so ago!
Do you think maybe Hugh, after scoffing at the importance of site rankings, was trying to raise his rankings, by linking to it from Wiki?????? Hmmmm? So maybe it’s bothering him just a tad more than he is admitting? LOL!
Copied here, the history of the edits:
(cur) (prev) 13:43, 5 April 2010 Hope4Kids (talk | contribs) (49,181 bytes) (→Background: correct date of purchase and) (undo)
(cur) (prev) 20:52, 4 April 2010 RonLawHouston (talk | contribs) (49,142 bytes) (→Post-raid events) (undo)
(cur) (prev) 20:49, 4 April 2010 RonLawHouston (talk | contribs) (49,128 bytes) (→Post-raid events) (undo)
(cur) (prev) 20:47, 4 April 2010 RonLawHouston (talk | contribs) (49,140 bytes) (→Post-raid events) (undo)
(cur) (prev) 15:12, 4 April 2010 70.139.54.77 (talk) (48,389 bytes) (→Court rulings) (undo)
(cur) (prev) 22:18, 3 April 2010 Hope4Kids (talk | contribs) (47,919 bytes) (remove EL to opinion blogs and controversial sites containing no factual information from knowledgeable sources) (undo)
(cur) (prev) 19:29, 3 April 2010 XLinkBot (talk | contribs) (48,399 bytes) (BOT–Reverting link addition(s) by Hugh McBryde to revision 352053922 (http://www.hughmcbryde.blogspot.com/)) (undo)
(cur) (prev) 19:27, 3 April 2010 Hugh McBryde (talk | contribs) (49,605 bytes) (→External links: Add a blog) (undo) (Tag: possible conflict of interest)
(cur) (prev) 19:14, 3 April 2010 Hugh McBryde (talk | contribs) (49,442 bytes) (→Court rulings: Detailed description of Evidence suppression in Arizona with links to the Mohave County Court site.) (undo)
My assessment of Hugh is that he’s about 1/2 evil narcissistic jerk and 1/2 unadulterated ignorant dumba$$.
The problem is those two halves coexist and feed on one another. The Wikipedia stuff I mostly write off to ignorant dumba$$, but he wouldn’t latch onto that line of thinking without the evil narcissistic jerk part.
Alexa update for the day:
FLDS Texas worldwide: 346,775
That other site: 375,213
I do wonder where this site will top out. My guess (from other blogs I visit) is the 250 thousand range.
I concur with your assessment. All he had to do was click on XlinkBot to figure out “who” really removed his link to his blog.
Anonymous 9:52,
For a long time I have wondered why the LDS Church does not get more involved with what is happening with the FLDS rather than declaring they are “nothing to do with us.” How they can just act as if they are not related is beyond me. They have the same foundation based on the same extra-biblical scriptures and founding “prophets.”
Seems like a time for “big brother” to step in and call them to task and offer support. Maybe they have and I have missed it.
Utah, Arizona law officers descend upon polygamous community
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Updated: 04/06/2010 09:35:28 AM MDT
Utah and Arizona law enforcement officers reportedly descended on government buildings in a polygamous community that straddles the two states’ border Tuesday morning.
Residents told The Salt Lake Tribune that an unspecified number of officers were at the Colorado City Fire Department and at the Hildale Town offices. The twin towns are home to members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, which has been under intense government scrutiny since 2002.
A spokesman for the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office confirmed that there were “a few” officers in the community “conducting some type of business.”
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14829144
For a long time I have wondered why the LDS Church does not get more involved with what is happening with the FLDS rather than declaring they are “nothing to do with us.” How they can just act as if they are not related is beyond me. They have the same foundation based on the same extra-biblical scriptures and founding “prophets.”
Seems like a time for “big brother” to step in and call them to task and offer support. Maybe they have and I have missed it.
Linda Lamb said this on April 6, 2010 at 11:17 AM
________________________
I would be surprised if the FLDS would even consider any aid. Jeffs seems to have a very negative view of the LDS in his writings.
Wow – a raid – it is about time and it goes without saying “Where is Utah?”
Organizations that are helping those who have left polygamy – Allreds, FLDS, Centennial Parkers, Harmtroms, independents, etc.would benefit greatly from contributions from the LDS church.
I don’t understand why the LDS will go help strangers in foreign countries after tsumamies, earthquakes, hurricanes and such and not lift a finger to help their own neighbors in need in their own state.
It just makes no sense to me and doesn’t seem very Christian of them.
Apparently Mohave County and possibly Washington County are doing some warrant serving today. Just recently here in Houston they were doing a traffic warrant “round-up” and no one cried genocide. However, if for some reason it happens to the FLDS then the gestapo must be taking them to the gas chambers.
Another web site by a “pro” yet “ex” FLDS member
Monday, March 8, 2010
Another of my replies to media
I am an ex-FLDS and want you to know that you have no true connection to what you are talking about. You should try to inform yourself. There is so few marriages between men and any female younger than 18. When you assume this, you can lose your credibility.
Try to understand that age is not a true definer of readiness for marriage.
There is no case where children are raped.
Also I want you to know that I believe, when marriage is made, there should be no law keeping them from consummating that union.
If you believe that good men of the Bible were polygamists, then you should at least give FLDS men the benefit of the doubt.
The “Lost Boys” is a sensationalized media event.
http://factsbeknown.blogspot.com/
And he’s even running for President in 2012. Vote for me, Al Franken!
http://holm2012.blogspot.com/
Anon, at 1:12PM, it seems he is another fine example of the FLDS home schooling program. I find reading his writing somewhat painful even without considering the content.
He sounds kind of like Alinusara10. Hey Alinusara10, are you running for President?
Prime example of why the LDS church does nothing to help victims of polygamy:
Comment from the Deseret News (LDS church newspaper) article on the warrants being currently served on officials in Hildale and Colorado City.
Will the meddling ever end?
Phil | April 6, 2010 at 11:25 a.m.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700022415/Warrants-served-on-polygamous-towns-offices.html
Not me. Well anyhow. If some guy or gal shot Ruth in the face with a BB gun I hope she presses charges. I’m not sure why the banker buddy of vice president Dick Cheney didn’t but there is no excuse for carelessness.
Well it looks like you guys don’t have to get all shook up about Utah. Warrants were served there as well.
Says who, Alin?
Funny. Hugh thinks that Matt Smith is doing this because the “illegal” evidence from the YFZ ranch is not available to him. BWAHAHAHA!
Says the deseret news and salt lake tribune Betty.
There are minor league morons, major league morons and then superstar morons. Hugh is well on his way to the Moron Hall of Fame.
Ron, I think he’s already there.
True, Alin, the warrants are being served there, they are signed by judges from both states, but only the Arizona LE are acting in this case.
Over on Medvecky’s site, they have moved on from talking about the Gestapo to speculating that these warrants will be thrown out because they are based on the “illegal” search of YFZ ranch.
I just think its funny. They don’t know anything about what real crimes are involved. They don’t know what the warrants are based on. And yet, they are very sure that LE is in the wrong, the FLDS is in the right and the warrants will get thrown out so all charges will be dismissed.
They don’t WANT to know what crimes are involved. Deliberate ignorance, if you ask me.
New warrants being served? Probably the same old chants will get dusted off:
It’s all Rozita’s fault!
It’s all Carolyn’s fault!
It’s all Elissa’s fault!
Wisan is a crook!
Judge Walther is a Nazi!
Dan Fischer is financing everything!
Somebody got hypnotized, so they’re all innocent!
And here’s a couple for Alin:
They aren’t polygamists, they’re married men with lotsa nookie on the side.
and/or
They can’t be bigamists, because they can only be legally married to one woman, so they’re not married to all the other women they’re married to, you put your right foot in, you put your right foot out, you put your right foot in and you shake it all about.
I think they will have to come up with a whole new set of excuses for money laundering and misappropriation of funds. But they’re already working on the “fruit of the poisoned tree”.
“Judge Walther is a Nazi!”
Well, maybe not that one — Walther can’t honestly be blamed for what Arizona and Utah do. 😉
“They can’t be bigamists, because they can only be legally married to one woman, so they’re not married to all the other women they’re married to, you put your right foot in, you put your right foot out, you put your right foot in and you shake it all about.”
Yes, the old “I’m not breaking the law because I’m breaking the law” defense. Kind of like saying a bank robber isn’t guilty of robbing a bank with a deadly weapon because they simply had a realistic looking fake gun — I’m pretty sure that one doesn’t hold up in court either.
i take exception to the ranch likening themselves to the texas heroes at the alamo. they don’t even have a clue why the alamo battle was fought since they don’t allow that kind of history to be taught to their students.
They aren’t polygamists, they’re married men with lotsa nookie on the side.
====================================================
Sure. I can live with that.
Regarding the new warrants, I’m withholding comment until I learn more about what they are looking for and what they actually find.
Great idea, Alin. Will you actually read it, or just make assumptions based on what Medvecky says about it?
Me: They aren’t polygamists, they’re married men with lotsa nookie on the side.
====================================================
Alin: Sure. I can live with that.
……………..
Really? How about when that nooky is an 8th grader?
Nooky from an 8th grader who has no choice in the matter, has almost no education, can’t leave the ranch/town if she wants, has no say in who she married IS NOT NOOKY.
It’s rape.
I wonder if this kid is a son of Preston Barlow who was a Hildale/CC cop and POST decertified him?
April 7, 2010
Utah man, 21, arrested after bank prank
HERRIMAN, Utah (AP) — Police say a Utah man may have thought he was pulling a prank when he sprayed a smelly chemical into a plastic tube and sent it to the teller at a bank drive-through.
But police aren’t laughing. They arrested 21-year-old Preston Barlow on three misdemeanor charges.
Police and a fire department hazardous materials team were called to the Mountain America Credit Union in Herriman on Tuesday after the teller opened the container and reported the chemical made her ill.
Police say Barlow drove away, but was tracked down from personal information left with his bank deposit.
As for the chemical, police say it was a common prank item and isn’t hazardous.
http://www.thespectrum.com/print/article/20100407/NEWS05/100407008/Utah-man-21-arrested-after-bank-prank
And here is the story from the Deseret News:
Smelly prank causes Herriman credit union teller to vomit
HERRIMAN — A prank by a customer at a Mountain America Credit Union branch turned foul Tuesday when the teller who smelled the noxious fume became sick.
Hazmat crews were called to the credit union at 13389 S. 5600 West where police say a 21-year-old man sprayed a stream of foul-smelling liquid from a prank product into the tube at the drive-through window. About 5 p.m., a teller on the other end received the tube, smelled it and started vomiting.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700022537/Prank-causes-teller-to-vomit.html
When you dont hit the radar, make a scene at a bank! Seems about as smart as trying to be funny and pepper spraying a cop.
HA HA look at the idiot wearing bracelets!
Anyone recognize him? Here’s his mug shot.
this just in from Canada :
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/oddball+alliances+polygamy+battle/2772233/story.html
Really? How about when that nooky is an 8th grader?
————————————
Then the punishment should be the same as sent out to a monogamous man. No problem.
Al
“Really? How about when that nooky is an 8th grader?
————————————
Then the punishment should be the same as sent out to a monogamous man. No problem.”
==================================
NAAHHHH, when you lie to children about their salvation, and use your position of trust, the punishment should be double, or more.
Otherwise they would do something stupid, like uh, repeating that bad behavior?
I think Winstons argument is going to be “I have the religious right to have my sex slaves, just as the slaves have the right to be slaves”…..
Sexually assualting ANY child, should be punishable by cutting the man’s nuts off,, hows that?
I just looked at Huge McNarcissist’s site stats, whoops, dramatic slide there.
Maybe he needs to post something quickly on Pastor Marty …. just some advice
Deputy Dog 1,
Seems like an appropriate punishment to me.
OMG – too damn funny now Huge McNut says I’m a site fluffer for FLDS Texas.
Hey Admins, when do I get my special FLDS Texas logo knee pads?
I’m waiting…
Fluffy not stuffy.
I dunno DD that’s pretty permanent and we would have a whole slew of day care workers from the 70s and 80s who would suffer cause back then they didn’t know how to question children.
Btw Stamp, surely you are not suggesting that monogamous men and women cannot abuse a position of trust?
DD gets a little passionate sometimes.
Al
“Btw Stamp, surely you are not suggesting that monogamous men and women cannot abuse a position of trust?”
====================
When they do the sentences are enhanced, by law, and that is as it should be..
Also sentences are enhanced if a married man molests children he legally is forbidden from being married to.
Ask Leroy how that crime worked for him.
Betty,
Florida for a while was working on that cure. It seams a reasonable deterrent, and if they dont figure it out on the front end they have a problem re-offending.
“Bobby James Allen pleaded guilty Monday to three counts of armed sexual battery and various other charges involving attacks that happened in 1998 and 1999. Allen filed a motion requesting castration in exchange for a reduced sentence.
Circuit Judge Michael Overstreet agreed to sentence Allen to 25 years’ prison on Sept. 20 if has the procedure in the next eight days. If Allen does not go through with the operation, he faces up to life in prison.
“You understand that this procedure is the removal of your testicles?” Overstreet asked Allen.
Allen said he wanted to be castrated.
“I have spoken with all the victims,” prosecutor Larry Basford told Overstreet. “They agree that this sentence punishes him and would deter him and others from similar acts.”
”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296424,00.html
You don’t have to surgically castrate someone, you can achieve the same effect with medication, and it is reversible.
I think the irreversible method is preferred.
Do they actually have surgeons willing to perform the procedure ?
Oh indeed – In CA, the “Heavens Gate” cult male members were all surgically castrated, and by their own request – of course mandated by the leader.
Was the leader castrated?
“NEW YORK — After Heaven’s Gate leader Marshall Applewhite was castrated, five other cult members eagerly followed and “couldn’t stop smiling and giggling” about the procedure, says the former member who discovered the mass suicide.
Applewhite decided to get castrated a year ago after two cult members quietly went to Mexico for the procedure, Rio DiAngelo told Newsweek. Once Applewhite got castrated, five other cultists did the same.
“They couldn’t stop smiling, and giggling” about the procedure, DiAngelo said. “They were excited about it.””
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/heavgate.htm
Looks like they went to Mexico for the procedure.
I would imagine you would have more difficulty in the US finding a surgeon to perform the procedure.
Ron,
If there ever was a site fluffer, it is Huge McNarcissist.
When you go to one of his posts, note that he places multiple links.
Each time you go to one of the links, and then return to his site,
it records another hit for his site on FEEDJIT. That is how he achieves
his “site fluffing”
Someone should send him a pair of knee pads.
Me: Really? How about when that nooky is an 8th grader?
————————————
Alin: Then the punishment should be the same as sent out to a monogamous man. No problem.
…………………
Exactly. The FLDS abusers are being given the punishments allowed by the State of Texas for sexual molestation of children. No problem.
I’m not fat I’m fluffy.
When my hand cramp badly and I can’t keep them from writhing and twitching, I call some of my keyboarding efforts caused by fluffy fingers.
where did lyle dissapear to
Huge fluffs his own site! LMAO! No wonder you have to hit a link just to read the second half of a paragraph, he’s workin it hard!
Toad,
I have a cat who, like you, is not fat, he’s fluffy. In fact, it is the lovely cat who is my avatar…
Maybe your fluffy fingers are caused by carpal tunnel syndrome ?
Just a thought…
Yes, Stamp, Hugh and his imaginary harem are fluffing his site no doubt as we speak.
I bet he goes to the Montpelier VT public library every lunch break to reset the home pages to his blaugh.
The librarians see him coming and say “Here comes that pesky computer fluffer again! Get out the CAT 5 and whip him good!”
I won’t (as a rule) go to his site, I don’t want to encourage him.
I don’t think I need any more fluffing images in my head, Stamp.
(howling with laughter)
Same here — ixnay-on-the-ufflay. snicker.
p.s. on an unrelated forum board – I got a great kick out of two responses to trolls — I’m stealing them for future use:
a) “Unfortunately for your self-important ignorant @ss, my life does NOT depend on your values.”
and
b) ” …i said pull your head out, not shove it farther in.”
🙂
Tonight I’m voting for a).
But GrannyToad, I was thinking b) sounded just like something you would post, LOL.
In the case of his latest incessant conspiracy theories, b) fits quite well.
Morning Alexa Fluffer report:
Some of you in on “the secret” already know this but FLDS Texas is now at 319,082 worldwide and 33,992 in the US
The closest other FLDS related site is 360,943 worldwide and 60,928 in the US
Time for me to go and turn more library computers into Zombies!
Be sure to keep the Dallas and Fort Worth public library computers hooked in too!
I’ll work the west coast, LA, San Fran, Seattle, all those public computers can easily be accessed and deployed by the troops!
Oooohhh, I’ll get the ones in Dallas 😉
Honestly, I doubt if a patron could change the default homepage of any public computer located in libraries in major municipal areas, such as Dallas or Forth Worth. Most libraries have a program on the public computers that would prevent such tampering. Perhaps in a rural New England public library, they don’t bother, but Dallas? How else do you think that libraries handle porn?
Come now, Floridian Anonymous,
Don’t challenge the Pharisee’s delusions.
Exactly. The FLDS abusers are being given the punishments allowed by the State of Texas for sexual molestation of children. No problem.
————————
Isn’t it nice to find agreement?
Anon, as a former IT professional, I would agree with you. For one thing, you would not give administrator powers to the guest logins. For another, there is undoubtedly a nightly maintenance routine that includes setting everything back to their desired standards. Most support teams do this to cover up their own mistakes (i.e. worked on something and forgot to clean up after yourself), if for no other reason.
Looks like Twin Cities Water Works is next in line being investigated:
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/Investigators-eyeing-FLDS-controlled-Twin-City/NHezc4Gjxkm-7dbJEYEl3A.cspx
The link below has info on a Deep Freeze which is a program commonly used to prevent computer tampering on public computers:
http://www.faronics.com/en/Products/DeepFreeze/DeepFreezeEducation.aspx
This program prevents a lot of problems…wonderful.
Some Smith over at the San Angelo paper is defending FLDS rights to their illegal practices
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/apr/07/flds-has-legal-right-to-its-beliefs-practices/
He says he got stones thrown at him. I suspect this was about being compassionate, and thinking he needed some.
That’s what I’d just read last night when I selected option a).
The FLDS must not have found San Angelo to their liking because Lehi Barlow aka Lehi Allred’s trial is going to be in Schleicher County.
Maybe they just don’t get the idea that most of us are horrified by under aged assigned concubines?
I’m sure they don’t get that Betty.
Smith’s misguided statement thet chooses to only consider superficial aspects of an imported religious sect, who magically appeared as a hunting lodge, only to now manifest itself as a full-blown and autonomous Theocracy enclave defies explanation outside of a covert crime syndicate bent upon it’s own preservation at the expense of Schleicher County community as a whole. The Fundamentalist’s admit to no wrong doing, proclaim persecution and wish to sustain their illicit practices free from civil and law enforcement actions, under the guise of a misunderstood and maltreated congregation that has moved away from their historical homestead for the very same set of felony(s) they are now convicted/charged with in Texas.
There seems to be a classic ‘Failure to Communicate’ but Texas, Utah, Arizona, Nevada, South Dakota, Colorado and Canada aren’t the ‘tone deaf’ party.
Laughing Panfish,
There are a number of things about the good doctor Smith that don’t add up.
Take, for example :
1) the fact that he claims that he treated FLDS children as an internal medicine specialist.
Internists are not trained, credentialed or provided with malpractice insurance to treat children.
2) His statement that young adolescent females are somehow meant to have children at that early age simply because that was done in the past flies in the face of everything a doctor is taught in med school during their obstetrics rotation.
What was the maternal death rate after childbirth in young adolescent females in the past, when young teenagers where permitted to marry ?
It was extremely high, by today’s standards, according to Obstetrical Textbooks.
We are all aware of the fact that teenagers outside of the FLDS group become pregnant, however, these teenagers could be taught to practice contraception, whereas the FLDS sect specifically prohibits the use of contraceptive technology.
What do the same Obstetrics textbooks say about pregnancies in girls under the age of 18?
These pregnancies are associated with the birth of low birthweight babies who often end up in ICU, or mothers with other reproductive complications, such as traumatic tears of the perineum, fistula formation, and pre-eclampsia/eclampsia.
I don’t really care what he thinks of any group’s lifestyle, but I do care about the medical accuracy of the statements he makes.
Susan, What are the odds that Smith’s FLDS himself? Or got his degree from the ubiquitous CrackerJack box as a surprise?
Smith’s not FLDS and he is a doctor, although most consider him quacky, but he doesn’t have many patients and he got dropped for privileges at one clinic because he didn’t see enough patients.
Boy Cajim, you really said a mouthful!
No Toad, Dr Smith is not FLDS.
He is an internist who has written a book, and this may be his way of marketing his book.
Internists are not trained, credentialed or provided with malpractice insurance to treat children.
This statement is at best a distortion. Internists are licensed medical doctors and are therefore trained to treat illnesses. They have all the credentials necessary to treat children. They many not have a specialization in pediatrics, but not having that specialization does not mean that they cannot treat children.
Unless they have a highly specific and restrictive malpractice policy, any treatment of children as a medical doctor would normally be covered under their malpractice policy.
i think smith has treated children in the past, whether or not any were flds is unknown to me.
Ron,
Internists are NOT trained to treat children, nor do hospitals credential them to provide services to children, unless it is an emergency situation.
Children are NOT simply little adults, they have different diseases, and different responses to treatment than adults do.
Most malpractice insurance companies would object to an internist treating children in any circumstance other than an emergency, due to the fact that the statute of limitations in a medical malpractice case is 21 years + the statute of limitations, not 2. 5 yrs, as it is in most states.
I’m speaking from 20 + years of experience….
Susan
You’re saying you didn’t do a pediatric rotation in medical school? Honestly what do most kids present with for treatment? Usually it’s things like respiratory infections and other things that even nurse practitioners and physicians assistants usually treat. So to say that a kid can be treated by a PA or a nurse practitioner and not a licensed medical doctor who just happens to have done an internal medicine residency and taken the boards for internal medicine is a flat out distortion.
Look, you may not like the guy and what he has to say but don’t distort and try to present things as “facts” that simply aren’t.
The facts are that internists have the “training,” and “credentials” to treat children. If they undertake to do that then they usually will be covered by their malpractice insurance.
Sorry, but those are simply the facts.
Susan, I’m confused.
Internal medicine = internist? I thought intern was a step to becoming a practicing doctor and internal medicine was a specialty.
I’m confused too.
My internist is no intern.
Ron,
I have no relationship with the aforementioned clinician nor am I distorting the facts of the matter, nor do I have an opinion regarding whether I “like” him or not….my statements are based on medical facts and experience, not opinion.
Review the training requirements for internal medicine residency and practice at the ACGME website, http://www.acgme.org. There is NO training in the treatment of children for internal medicine residents.
Internists DO NOT have the requisite post graduate competencies to treat children.
Medical school training ALONE does NOT qualify a physician to treat ALL patients. You must complete an accredited residency program in your specialty FIRST to achieve competency.
Lawyers go to law school, then practice.
Physicians go to medical school, then internship, then residency training for specialization.
Internal medicine specialists are trained specifically to provide services for ADULTS, not children.
During my medical school training, I delivered babies, treated kids & adults, operated on the abdomen, pelvis, joints, bones, brains, lungs, and heart.
That does NOT make me an OB, neurosurgeon, pediatrician, orthopedist, or cardiothoracic surgeon, even though Dr Oz was my senior resident for my surgery rotation (yes, THAT Dr. Oz!)
When a malpractice policy is issued, it is issued specifically for YOUR specialty which you learn AFTER medical school, in a post graduate RESIDENCY program, and it is issued with SPECIFIC restrictions on which patient populations you may treat, and what procedures you are able to perform, and what SPECIALTY you practice.
How do I know this ?
I have had policies written for me by two different carriers in the past.
Hospitals DO NOT credential internal medicine specialists to render care for children routinely because the practitioner did NOT complete a residency in pediatrics.
It is that simple. Medical school is not enough.
Internist = internal medicine specialist – completes three years of residency in internal medicine
Yay, someone else involved in medicine. I actually help train Residents in pathology (graduated from medical school but now specializing in Pathology in this case surgical pathology). They may have their MD or DO but they cannot be certified until they complete residency (4 years) and pass their boards. It always makes my head hurt when people confuse Internist with intern, I was an intern once at a government lab (I didn’t even get my own desk they gave me a foot stool).
Salutations, PathGirl, and good night.
Not to start another little spat here, but I need to try to set the record straight.
I think we were all caught by an April Fools jokester.
This was posted on April 1st:
I thought that I should let you all know that a body was pulled from a pond in Colorado City this afternoon, waiting for more details.
ntruth said this on April 1, 2010 at 9:44 PM
I have finally heard back from someone who would know and was told that there is NO truth to this rumor.
Perhaps the handle “ntruth” really stood for “NOT truth” because I completely believe my source who said this rumor was not true.
So “ntruth” had us all stressing for nothing. Be gone from here you little cockroach.
April Fools jokes and pranks are funny. Telling the world that someone drowned or was injured is not.
I was an intern once at a government lab (I didn’t even get my own desk they gave me a foot stool).
pathgirl said this on April 8, 2010 at 10:51 PM
pathgirl, the government lab should have given you a throne. Idiots.
Wow, check those Alexa stats. 308,931 and dropping !
Perhaps the good Dr. Smith is a “family practice” physician. I know some of those and they do cover a little of everything. They have to be trained as discussed by Dr. Cat above, but they see the whole family. Some folks mistakenly refer to them as “internists”
FLDS Texas,
Perhaps we could have a sidebare (above or below blogroll) that gives the current/pending status of legal issues (kind of a “score card”) for those of us who get dizzy keeping track?
Look – here’s the deal – you graduate from medical school – do a 1 year internship and pass an exam and you’re licensed to practice medicine. That’s all the training and credentials you need to treat ANYONE in the state of Texas. To imply that a licensed medical doctor who happens to be a specialist in internal medicine cannot treat children is a distortion. The standards a hospital sets for allowing doctors to treat patients in their institution is an internal policy by a private institution and has nothing to do with the legality of whether a person CAN treat someone.
You can quibble over whether a particular doctor SHOULD treat a patient, but that doesn’t take away the legality of their treatment.
Just checked with my favorite MD….pediatric privileges for an internal medicine specialist would be denied at a hospital but, for example, an internal medicine specialist working with public health services would see children etc. Ron is correct.
Said favorite MD also suggested Smith is outrageous for supporting child marriages as a religious practice
The real quote was: “Of course you have to have religious sensitivity in medicine, but there is a line and the guy is a quack.”
Glad to hear that the rumor about Ruth or someone drowning was not true…and agree – not a funny April fools prank..
HHG
Well, yeah, he’s outrageous and a serious nut case but he didn’t do anything wrong if he treated the FLDS children.
Please continue on Discussion #31
Thanks!
Ron,
I did not say it was illegal in Texas or anywhere else for an internal medicine specialist to treat children. It would be acceptable in an emergency, NOT in routine circumstances.
In the event of patient injury, a practitioner who exceeds the scope of practice they are trained to deliver can be charged with professional misconduct.