Open Discussion #35 – Warren gets ANOTHER trial in UTAH … or not?
Continued from Open Discussion #34
The Utah Supreme Court has ordered a new trial of polygamist leader Warren Jeffs.
The 54-year-old Jeffs was convicted by a southern Utah jury in 2007 of two counts of first-degree felony rape as an accomplice and will face these charges once again.
The court ruled Tuesday that jury instructions on lack of consent were in error.
Jeffs still faces criminal charges in Texas and Federal charges as well.
FLDS TEXAS 
Here’s the actual court ruling:
Click to access Supreme_Court_Opinion_7_27_10.pdf
IMO the court screwed up, will certainly not help Utah’s public image.
The beat goes on.. and on…
Warren and Brian Mitchell can trade crazy notes. Maybe they should room together.
What a legacy Utah has earned itself, like you say it paints an image that quite frankly makes you say… WTF?
Another Utah trial for Jeffs? What a colossal waste of taxpayer dollars.
They seem to have an endless supply of stupid to go with all the money to burn.
Just bring him to Texas and we will serve up a large dose of justice
What? No ruling document posted here? I know it is available.
Check.down 2 posts
The extradition hearing for Warren was canceled today, and a source in Utah is telling me that they may open the prison doors and release him today, since his conviction was overturned….
Would you be surprised?
I wouldn’t.
I don’t think they will release him today boots. They got to have a bail reduction hearing or drop all charges.
I don’t think they would do that Boots.
The public outcry would be too great.
Reverse and remand is NOT overturning. These are two totally different concepts.
Alin is right, his only option now is to try to seek some bail pending his retrial. Given that he was a long standing fugitive from justice, that bail will undoubtedly be denied.
Yeah, you can’t possibly be more of a flight risk than he is. If he were released Utah’d never live it down.
They have declared the Texas extradition application null and void. They should be sending him down here.
There isn’t going to be any retrial. Why on earth would the victims put themselves through that again?
Just in
Hello,
There are currently active arrest warrants for Warren Jeffs which means he remains in custody. On your other question about what’s next…..A Schleicher County grand jury returned indictments against Warren Steed Jeffs on sexual assault and bigamy charges. We are working with the Texas Governor’s Office and Utah authorities to bring Warren Jeffs to Texas to stand trial.
Thanks,
Jerry Strickland
Office of the Attorney General
State of Texas
Well, at least I can breathe again.
Especially after him being on the lam for so long, releasing him without dropped charges seems unlikely.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11737707 There is a video of Shurtleffs statement to the Press.
As a native Utahn, why am I not surprised at this turn of events…..?
I was just re-reading the statement Elissa Wall made after Jeffs’ conviction:
“I hope that all FLDS girls and young women will understand that no matter what anyone may say, you are created equal. You do not have to surrender your rights or your spiritual sovereignty. I know how hard it is, but please, stand up and fight, fight for your voice and choice. I will continue to fight with you.”
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695213229,00.html
And I could just cry.
Elissa, if you ever happen to read this, I just want to say I think you’re an incredible person and what you did was brave and amazing and inspirational.
Just so everybody knows Elissa and Lamont are not married even though they want everyone to think that!This ruling does not surprise me at all.
Anon,
Why should the ruling be in any way related to her marital satus.
And why should we believe that you know something about Elissa’s marital status that is not general knowledge?
Here’s an article on Elissa Wall reaction to Jeffs ruling:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11747645&hl=5
Betty,only because they showed up in court together with the lawyers to make it appear so.
The governors office is right, Utah can’t just let him go while there are outstanding warrants against him. I think the extradition is null and void until everyone reassessees.
It makes no difference in any way shape or form if they are married or not.
Anon,
I guess it isn’t possible to think that Lamont may have shown up because he cared about her and testifying about rape is difficult? And again, you have not said how you know that they are not married.
I agree, ProudTexan. Nothing that happened in her life after her “marriage” to Allen Steed changes the fact of that relationship.
I believe Elissa and Lamont divorced, although they were legally married at one point as far as I know — which is more than you can say for Allen. Only an FLDS man with his utter contempt of women would think that whether or not Elissa was married to Lamont at any point meant anything. They seem to have huge issues with women not being controlled by some man. It’s sad really. All these insecure men afraid of an “uncontrolled” woman.
Anderson Cooper [CNN] had Carolyn, John Krackauer and legal expert, Jeffrey Toobin on to discuss the ruling. If it replays tonight in your area, it’s on during the last 15 min of the hour. Toobin said he was amazed at the [bad] ruling! The ruling had NOTHING to do with any evidence. He didn’t get it. Krakaur feels it was politically motivated.
In my nonlegal opinion…..it takes the heat off Utah by absolving one of their ‘distant Morman cousins’ of any crime and makes Texas the ‘bad guy’ for prosecuting this pooooor religious leader. This way Utah can wash their hands of the whole mess!
I saw a re-run of Anderson Cooper this morning with Carolyn J, Ron K and Jeffrey T. It was very good. I thought all 3 were very well spoken and presented themselves and their views quite well. I recommend watching it if you are able to.
Could the FLDS be bribing their way out of trouble? They sure do have a lot of money. In the long run it would be cheaper than all these crazy legal fees.
I’m just guessing, but bribing all the members of a state supreme court has got to be really, really expensive. It has occurred to me, though, that there is something fishy about the lack of federal action.
Congratulations to Carolyn Jessop and Brian Moroney on their engagement.
One would only have to slant a majority.
Yes, but wasn’t this a unanimous ruling?
There is only five of them. A million each = 5 Million dollars. Wendel Nielson could pay that alone. I’m just sayin’…
Remember, the guests on A.C have books to sell. Give the audience what they want so that they will be called again.
They also happen to be experts, in their respective fields, of flds life and the law. It’s not like they picked people off the streets to comment on the show. I didt hear any of them mention their books..AC did as a way of letting people know their backrounds in the subject.
As much as I love a good conspiracy theory, I have to say that I think SCOU did the right thing. The problem in this case was the poorly written law. The judge tried to create a precedent, SCOU said “No, not this precedent.”. I’m sure it happens on a regular basis. What I’d like to know is what the Utah lawmakers take when they’re coming up with their laws — have you read the one that can allow women who miscarry to be charged with a crime?
Not often do we agree Rebeckah. Terry Goddard Attorney General of Arizona and certainly not a fan of Warren Jeffs by any means agrees that Utah Supreme Court made the only legal choice available.
There are other lawyers and legal analysts who have come to other conclusions. Terry Goddard has failed to prosecute crimes of polygamy when they are right under his nose, so his opinion does not mean a great deal to me.
And then there’s Dickens “If the law believes that, sir, then the law is an ass.”
If you look at the facts, Warren Jeffs is designing the rape of hundreds of under aged girls, whether it is by intent or because of extreme disregard for their consent to sex with that man. If it is not illegal, then it certainly should be. Personally, I think arranged marriages of under aged girls should be illegal regardless of religion, whether the girl “consents” or not.
I find it hard to believe that all 5 Supremes are for sale. Call me naive or old fashioned, but I think some people actually have principles and live by them.
I don’t believe they are for sale Betty, but I think they ruled properly about the law, even if it is only a minor technicality. I’m very sorry that Elissa will be put through another trial, but I don’t really think that Washington county will retry him. I thin he is bound for Texas very soon, so I hope naomie doesn’t get to comfortable in the crick.
http://sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/50001967-82/jeffs-wall-court-girls.html.csp
Here’s one I don’t think Brooke wrote.
The influence Jeffs has had over ALL his followers is a huge concern to me beause he uses religion and religious words to manipulate his followers into breaking all kinds of laws. He teaches deception using religious terms. Those fathers who have been jailed for obeying their religious leaders orders are to be pitied. The mothers who have been brainwashed into believing they were being faithful in obeying the orders to leave a husband and marry another at the whim of their prophet are to be pitied. It had to break their heart but then they are taught to not show emotion. And the beat goes on. The children know no better unless those who were in CPS’s influence for a time have seen for themselves how the outside world can be – kind and concerned. Maybe, just maybe some good has come out of it all.
And thanks to tx. they will only become more isolated and afraid.!!…!!!
What’s that about, 11:17? I can understand nuttily or ignorantly isolating I suppose, but they’d need first to have that brainwashed paranoia, right?
Correct GT
ALL organized religion is brainwashing. Paranoia comes with the level of opposition to ones choice of religion.
EXCLUSIVE: FBI looking into Colorado City arrest
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/state/story/EXCLUSIVE-FBI-looking-into-Colorado-City-arrest/7LddE_GAGkOqaxBl4W3vPQ.cspx
The hainlines must be shaking in their boots.
Did you read the article? I would suspect that the FBI are more interested in the way the local law enforcement behaved. I doubt the FBI would bother themselves with simple property disputes.
Then again, it seems the FBI have been “investigating” the FLDS for years now and little has come of it.
Well, I do hope something comes with the FBI working on this. Their being arrested, on violating a tro, on their own property is ridiculous! I thought part of the LE problem had been solved in the Crik— I thought they’d all been pretty much decomissioned…obviously, I was wrong. I was hoping some LE sanity had been injected into the place. So sad the idiocy and harrassment still continues.
Brooke posted the police report. Check it out.
I think some have speculated it’s by a faker
Hipo – they are “Quiverful” I think, and that blog was proven fraudulent over six months ago when the blog owner posted someone else’s obstetrical ultrasound on the website claiming it was hers….
Has anyone noticed that Brooke Adams blog site has slowly morphed into a kind of mirror image FLDS Texas site, except that the documents she posts are all leaked from the FLDS power structure?
and as her site has morphed her comments have dwindled to a very few diehard FLDS supporters….It almost seems that she had to ramp up that type of postings to compete
Having made that comparison, I hope that this site still remains a place for full conversation
HHG
HHG, I was just thinking that same thing yesterday.
Oprah Winfrey buys rights to “Sons of Perdition”
Julia Roberts, Forest Whitaker, Goldie Hawn, Gabriel Byrne and Mariel Hemingway Sign On for OWN: THE OPRAH WINFREY NETWORK Original Documentaries
Films Will Join OWN’s Monthly Documentary Film Club, Along With “Life 2.0” and “Sons of Perdition”
http://www.streetinsider.com/Press+Releases/Julia+Roberts,+Forest+Whitaker,+Goldie+Hawn,+Gabriel+Byrne+and+Mariel+Hemingway+Sign+On+for+OWN%3A+THE+OPRAH+WINFREY+NETWORK+Original+Documentaries/5833788.html
I don’t know what happened to Brooke’s site, but it won’t load for me any more – that’s fine, it was dead anyway.
So Oprah bought the rights to Sons of Perdition? So much for romanticizing the prairie dresses and braids.
Late Aug, was it 23rd, there’ll be a hearing in UT whether to have a new trial for Jeffs?
I do know UT got a new request to bring Jeffs back to TX for his trial
Department of Justice Releases First National Strategy for Child Exploitation Prevention and Interdiction
U.S. Marshals Service to Launch Nationwide Operation Targeting Top 500 Most Dangerous, Non-compliant Sex Offenders
WASHINGTON – Attorney General Eric Holder today announced that the Department of Justice released its first-ever National Strategy for Child Exploitation Prevention and Interdiction. The strategy also provides the first-ever comprehensive threat assessment of the dangers facing children from child pornography, online enticement, child sex tourism, commercial sexual exploitation and sexual exploitation in Indian Country, and outlines a blueprint to strengthen the fight against these crimes. The strategy builds upon the department’s accomplishments in combating child exploitation by establishing specific, aggressive goals and priorities and increasing cooperation and collaboration at all levels of government and the private sector.
As part of the overall strategy, the U.S. Marshals Service is launching a nationwide operation targeting the top 500 most dangerous, non-compliant sex offenders in the nation. Additionally, the department will create a national database to allow federal, state, tribal, local and international law enforcement partners to deconflict their cases with each other, engage in undercover operations from a portal facilitated or hosted by the database, share information and intelligence and conduct analysis on dangerous offenders and future threats and trends. The department also created 38 additional Assistant U.S. Attorney positions to devote to child exploitation cases, and over the coming months will work to fill the vacancies and train the new assistants in this specialized area.
EXCLUSIVE: Elissa Wall wants Warren Jeffs tried again
Reported by: Brent Hunsaker
SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) – One week after the Utah Supreme Court threw out the conviction of Warren Jeffs and ordered a new trial, his accuser, Elissa Wall, sat down with ABC 4 News for an exclusive interview.
The interview touched on the decision, but mostly in the context of what she wanted to do moving forward. It was not about second-guessing the justices, but understanding what she believes should happen next.
Read the rest of the interview –
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/EXCLUSIVE-Elissa-Wall-wants-Warren-Jeffs-tried/4oli2q-VtESszEKzISow5A.cspx?rss=20
I admire Ms Wall’s courage and perseverance.
I particularly like the comment left by FincenMIB
Looks like the “recovered memories” liars are still on the warpath though, S. Did you notice the “Dr. Beal” comment by Nohypnosis? How stupid do you have to be to get a clue that crimes committed against 14 year olds don’t result in “repressed memories”. 14 years olds might get amnesia but they don’t “repress”. Sometimes I think there should be an IQ test before people get to post on the Internet.
(Yeah, I know, free speech and all that. It just gets painful watching the idiocy sometimes.)
Hey anon@9:19>>> 🙂 Great News on so many different levels. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you also anon@10:13 for the link. After reading the article I think I can buck up and be supportive. I remember the day she gave her testimony in the courtroom. Not only did she have to face Warren, the lawyers, Willie but she had to look out into the courtroom and see the many who would not help her.
Is there someone very familiar with Warren’s dictations who can provide the date for the one where Warren basically said that “we will tell the state (Utah) what they wish to hear, and we will do as we have always done” in relation to child brides?
Thanks in advance for help finding where he said this.
PS, I think it was the one where Sam Barlow told them in the Priesthood meeting that Utah was going to crack down on underage marriages, if that jogs anyone’s memory. That would have been some years back.
I need the date and page of the exact comment by Warren, please.
“The other so-called polygamous groups have surrendered to the government, made promises, invited the government among them to show they are not breaking the law of underage marriages. And the other polygamous groups, so-called, have written father and I letters demanding us to stop this. All of this is proof that they are the kingdom of the devil.” – Warren Jeffs, January 10, 2003
There was also one where warren said he would keep doing underage marriages to make the government rage against them… To see if the people would follow the prophet or not.
“I can see an effort coming to arrest me and a judge ordering me, if I am put on bail, ordering me not to perform any marriages. It is so easy to get around it. I can just delegate somebody else to do it each time like father did.” – Warren Jeffs, January 16, 2003
Anonymous, these are the ones I’ve seen. I think I posted them here before. I don’t have the page nubmers but all the documents are sorted chronologically here: http://phrecords.files.wordpress.com so it shouldn’t be too hard to find the context and page numbers.
Chemist, I think I know the quote you’re talking about, too. I think it was a later quote from Warren Jeffs (I want to say 2005 or 2006?)
Anon: I think if you do some digging, you’ll find that Warren talked about underage marriages quite a lot.
For instance, here’s a quote from when police were looking for Warren at his Short Creek compound (he was at “R1” at the time). Warren called Short Creek because he was worried about the police finding what he calls “evidence of other so called wrong doing”.
“The Lord has warned me that one thing the law will soon do is search for illegal immigration of the Canadian ladies so I want Lana and Anna Mae also Mary and Janetta and Shirly, as Janetta and Shirley are still under 18, ready to go in an instant to another house there in town but if there is a raid and they search for evidence of other so called wrong doing, all of you will be out of the way. I would like Janetta to stay close to Mary. Will you do that Mary? To encourage her and work with her and I would like Janetta to be humble and submissive to what I direct. Are there any other ladies under 18 there?” ~ Warren Jeffs, August 19, 2004
Click to access august-15-2004.pdf
MY FAVORITE QUOTE OF WARREN…..THIS IS A TEST…..
Lol, yeah, Anon, he uses that one a lot! The underage marriages were all “tests” of course – tests to see how much he could get away with.
I think Warren is a test to the FLDS to see how big of a camel they will swallow…
GULP
Thanks for the quotes ellie, this helps a lot. What I was looking for was a bit more specific of Warren snubbing Utah and a quote along the lines of “we will tell the state (Utah) what they wish to hear, and we will do as we have always done” in relation to child brides.
I don’t have time to read through all of the older dictations and this is not so critical that I need to. If anyone else can put their hands on the quote RE Utah, I would appreciate it.
Otherwise, I am very appreciative of what ellie and chemist provided and will make do with these quotes above.
Krakauer apologizes for stupid comment about Utah Supreme Court.
From article in SLTrib: ” “stupid comment” when he blamed the high court’s “close ties to the LDS Church” and the “political basis” of the judgment.
“I apologize to the justices,” he said. “That was not fair.”
Read entire article:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50054289-76/jeffs-krakauer-court-girl.html.csp
IMO the Utah Supreme court error-ed, but if Warren is retried the results will still be the same-guilty.
Best bet IMO is send him here to Texas, justice will be served. Warren Jeffs may not be familiar yet with Huntsville, TX, but it’s a place he will get to know well.
Justice will be served? heh @ That should scare the shit out of all of you!
Don’t take that to think that I don’t expect to see warren get his. But I see it all for different reasons. He wants to be a martyr so all your “Bubba” hatred works against you there.
Those who want to see injustice … will see it! Worry about that.
Ogre, could you clarify what you mean here… thanks
O it’s one of those passive aggressive threats, you know, emotional blackmail that’s supposed to make you tremble in you magick undies.
I think justice will be served if Warren Jeffs never sees the outside of a cell.
If he somehow is released on a technicality, he will only be even bolder and crueler than he was previously and he will cause his own people even more suffering.
How do you know he didn’t learn his lesson and wouldn’t help rehab the people into a more humane lifestyle while assisting those who’ve been hurt to heal???
BTW, he is the only person who could do this. IMO
I think Jeffs has thumbed his nose at civil authority in the past, anons 10:29 and 10:31, and he will continue to do so if he ever gets out.
He is a sociopath in my opinion, hence there is little chance of true reform.
Some other enlightened leader should emerge – I don’t pretend to know who that would be.
Ditto on every word you just said, S.
OTH, Ogre is right about seeing injustice… among the many on Warren’s downside.
Does that mean he needs to be in a mental hospital rather than in the general prison population to be molested. Really, the only benefit of the prison experience is to make the haters feel better. There is certainly no possibility of rehab there.
The ideal new leader of the FLDS would be someone of principle, someone who had a history of standing up to Jeffs in the past despite great personal loss, someone who was not involved in financial chicanery, and someone who was willing to follow the laws of the United States. This individual would also be someone who expressly condemned the arranged marriages of underage individuals and promoted educational excellence for all members, male and female.
Does anyone have an idea who prospective candidates might be ?
Anon 10:53 pm : You cannot reform a sociopath with psychotherapy.
Hating HIM isn’t the issue, Anon 10:53; the issues are his bad deeds and keeping AMERICAN citizens answerable to the laws of the land. Otherwise we live in utter chaos. He could EASILY have avoided / prevented all of this current misery, you know.
.
Heh, I could be that candidate, S. Except…. I know I could never go back.
You would be an excellent choice, East, but would they allow a woman to be their leader ? (I don’t think so – am I wrong ?)
Blogogre said: “Justice will be served? heh @ That should scare the shit out of all of you!” Yes it should scare Warren Jeffs and the FLDS men, Texas prison is hell on Earth. Watch video below, filmed in actual Texas prison, with real inmates speak
Absolutely right… but it would sure make a huge difference.
There are different facilities around the state. Heck, Texas is about the size of France, has a larger and better economy.
This future is what Warren Jeffs chose for himself voluntarily. He knew right from wrong. Actions have consequences.
Does that mean he needs to be in a mental hospital rather than in the general prison population to be molested. Really, the only benefit of the prison experience is to make the haters feel better. There is certainly no possibility of rehab there.
———————————–
I hold out hope that he meets some true Christian ministers while in prison and learns how he has twisted and misused his power. Reading his dictations, I don’t see any indication that he knows anything at all about Jesus Christ.
Haters? That’s him and his supporters calling names like street urchins when the regular non-criminals don’t write what they want to read. You know, mommy I hate you stuff.
Prisons have psych units yes, but a psychopath won’t be helped by any magic pills. Yes prisons have chaplains.
Justice is Warren Jeffs never being free to hurt another man, woman or child. It does not involve him being brutalized. In fact, I’d love it if Texas took steps to clean up prisoner brutality.
Granny, you’re a hoot! You should go back and read some of your tantrums. LMAO!!
By the way, I’m not defending warren. I am defending the rights that every American deserves. If you’re going to go after these guys this way, then I DEMAND that the same treatment be met out to every neighborhood in tx in which a known pregnant teenager or underage mother lives.
Anon 12:19 By the way, I’m not defending warren. I am defending the rights that every American deserves. If you’re going to go after these guys this way, then I DEMAND that the same treatment be met out to every neighborhood in tx in which a known pregnant teenager or underage mother lives.
————————————-
If you know of any underage children who are being sexually abused, then by all means you should report it.
On the ABC News program, What Would You Do?, John Quinones tackled the subject of child brides. The link that follows is to an article about the show and contains an 8:44 clip from the episode. The show hired actors to portray a polygamist family having dinner in a restaurant. One was supposedly a 15-year-old girl who was crying and could be overheard saying she was too young to be married. Only 4 of the approximately 100 people who witnessed this scene did anything to help. Elissa Wall was part of the taping. It’s a great clip. Tomorrow I’ll probably watch the entire episode. http://is.gd/e3A9v
“If you’re going to go after these guys this way, then I DEMAND that the same treatment be met out to every neighborhood in tx in which a known pregnant teenager or underage mother lives.”
Concur – go after them all.
When a teenager becomes pregnant by another teenager it is tragic – but when a teenager becomes pregnant by a much older man who already has partners of an appropriate age for consent by arrangement and coercion of another individual, this is immoral and criminal activity.
We all recognize the difference, and I am surprised that you do not.
Absolutely anon. If there are reports of underage marriages to older men or to sex between underage girls and older men it should be reported and investigated by LE and CPS.
That happened with Tony Alamo and with Israel Hawkins.
Anon 12:19 is definitely one of the haters – and liars. It is what it is.
What anon 12:19 should do is contact the appropriate people and express his/her demands to them. Posting them here does as much good as spitting into the wind.
From a clinical standpoint – I’ve seen underage girls who get pregnant. The person responsible for impregnating them was usually their own age or only slightly older. It is rare to see a 30 – 50 yr old male impregnating a teenage female, I have never seen it occur consensually and when such activity does takes place, the parents call in the complaint to law enforcement before the physicians have the opportunity to do so.
Teenagers who impregnate other teenagers have made an unfortunate mistake, but when 30 – 50 yr olds impregnate teenage girls, it is abuse. When religious leaders make arrangements for older men to marry or impregnate underage girls, this is criminal activity.
Actually anonymous, something like that just recently happened in New York. Parents tried to marry their pregnant 13 year old daughter off to the 27 year old man who impregnated her. He’s in jail now. Quit whining and open your eyes. It’s illegal for nonFLDS as well as FLDS to prey on young teen girls. It is also quite harmful for those girls to be bearing children at young ages.
Oh, an I was the August 5th 12:12 anonymous. Didn’t realize I’d been logged out. Sorry. 🙂
Rebeckah, were the parents also prosecuted in that NY case?
For anyone interested in the effect of underage pregnancy on mothers and their children – consider this article. Only the preface is available without copyright violation
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2134676
The clients-116 high-risk, urban, disadvantaged teenage mothers and their children
The conclusion that these children born to these teenage mothers suffer intellectual deficits largely because of economic and social impact of childbearing (and child rearing they should add) on the young parent(s) is really a no brainer.
I don’t think this study would hold much relevance to the flds lifestyle. Bad press to the contrary notwithstanding. They didn’t find it to be the case with the ones evaluated in the YFZ raid.
Ogre, my favorite troll, the physical effects of underage birth on the very young mothers still are relevant to the discussion. Read the whole article.
Drudge headline today:
The number of Americans who are receiving food stamps rose to a record 40.8 million in May as the jobless rate hovered near a 27-year high, the government reported yesterday.
——————–
So if all 100,000 polygamist were on the list (which they aren’t) it would still be insignificant, no?
I confess i was there, but only for a short while (as a monogamist, btw) and it was long long time ago. But I never took a dime from unemployment ever.
Blogogre, can you provide a link for that? It sounds like you’re saying the children of the teenage mothers at YFZ tested well but considering these children were all under 5 years of age, I don’t see how intellectual development testing would really even be possible or significant.
I also don’t see how the “flds lifestyle” makes a difference. In my opinion, poor, young and under-educated is the same everywhere.
Ogre, sorry to hear of your plight in the past, here is an article on welfare benefits in Colorado City – 44% of the population is receiving government assistance :
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy1078.html
Yes S, I understand that, and I would have liked to read the whole article. I’m just sayin’ based on that study they could not have concluded anything else. But did you notice in the chart they posted there, that the numbers didn’t actually bear out your conclusion. (imho) And it’s a little bit disingenuous to make the first age group 10-15 and the next one 16-17 (imho)
And don’t get me wrong, I am not advocating underage birth. We agree it would be better for everyone if the mother is 18+ We’re just back to how the research/science starts with the end in mind sometimes.
Ogre,
Young maternal age is associated with low infant birthweight and increased mortality.
See this article on teenage pregnancy and its complications –
http://journals.lww.com/clinicalobgyn/Citation/1978/21040/Complications_of_Teenage_Pregnancy.16.aspx
and here is more reading material for you, Ogre.
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a713998810
It’s not my problem anymore thankfully, but I honestly think that more people should be using Food Stamps. Anyone who can qualify should go for it. (with my tinfoil hat on for minute here) The FoodStamps are actually legitimate government funds created by the right entity for the right reason. As a Social credit.
If you want a real eye-opener on economics google Social Credit and read for a week or two about how Governments should really be creating money and putting into the economy instead of the Bankster Fraud system we have now.
You are not engaging in tinfoil hat thinking here, but I don’t believe that people who cannot afford to have children should be having children, nor do I believe that underage girls should be raising children.
Heading out now….enjoy your readings.
I’m so glad you posted those links S. You needed that. Now you will feel better all day long.
Ogre, please post the link to the studies on the child development/intellectual functioning which you cited and Ellie requested.
Will return later.
I felt better even before I posted, thanks.
If they had the studies and they said what you wanted them to say you would have them already and they would be all over the press for sure.
Probably most who need and qualify for food subsidy do receive it along with many cheats and moochers, including illegal aliens, gamblers, druggies and general lazybutts.
Ogre your projections from magical thinking don’t qualify as scientific peer reviewed objective material.
Blog,
we all have difficulty ascertaining “truth”. There are flaws in the scientific process both when applied to the physical sciences AND to the social sciences. However, over time, most literature tends to shake out under repeated testing…
Your blanket distrust of all things scientific (do you drive a car, drink clean water, get health exams?) when it touches upon underage marriage and literature on the effects of polygamy etc. suggests that the traits that you ascribe to writers/readers of this blog (knee jerk acceptance of all things anti-polygamy) are those that you yourself “own”.
I would be glad to have my opinion challenged. Please find some peer reviewed literature for me to read on the societal benefits of polygamy and I will read every word and then come back to discuss it with you…
HHG
I’d like to add a different perspective here – not from a statistical standpoint but from past personal experience and observation.
Lest we forget, unlike mainstream American youth, FLDS females are conditioned from birth for their roles as wife and mother. I do not attempt to address other cultures.
Most FLDS females actually do look forward (I certainly did) to those roles and will genuinely tell you (and earnestly believe) it’s their choice. (It’s a whole other argument as to whether it’s a “true” choice. Personally, I think not but that’s not what I’m getting at.)
I accept the studies, findings and peer reviewed literature for underage marriage and childbirth as far as they go. But the FLDS population is not included in any of them. Extrapolation is all we can exercise, and that’s okay. But in a sense, we’re comparing apples to oranges. (Pardon the cliché.)
I think underage pregnancy in mainstream America is typically accidental – either unintended or stupid or both. The thing is, FLDS girls are practiced – apprenticed if you will – prepared and ready at an early age to take on the kinds of responsibilities they do. They don’t know how to think or do any other way. So they are genuinely appalled at accusations of being too young.
Mind control. They have no alternative experience from which to draw. They don’t know what they don’t know.
That said, of course there are numerous girls who don’t want it but go ahead out of duty and fear. These are the saddest cases. Those who truly want it are more mature than “outsiders” in their emotional and FLDS social structure and do just fine. And of course they have gobs of support all along the way.
I’m not addressing the physical issues of pregnancy for very young girls. I do believe it’s physically riskier for them. I’ll admit, I have not seen a 12- 13- or 14-year-old go through a pregnancy. Fifteen and sixteen, yes; long ago and it was, in perhaps my limited observation, more rare in those days.
Personally, I think it’s stupid and despicable for girls to be allowed to marry and have children before the age of 18. I just wanted to present another side of the coin as far as what strikes me when I read these studies.
Ogre said ” …They didn’t find it to be the case with the ones evaluated in the YFZ raid….”
Blogogre said this on August 5, 2010 at 10:42 AM
The primary medical concern with regard to marrriage for girls less than 18 is the concern regarding the physical risks for underage mother and her child, namely increased maternal / infant mortality rates.
This is why many people believe that marriage age laws should be changed to a lower limit of 18.
There is no peer reviewed literature specifically regarding the developmental status or intellectual functioning of the children from Eldorado that I can find, unless you have access to it, Ogre, which is why I asked. The only data we have suggests that the children of teenagers have poorer outcomes than the children of older women in general.
I did not suggest that any of the data I presented was specific to the children of Eldorado or any other religious group. Underage birth is associated with poor outcomes in general for the population.
Ongoing brain research shows that the brain is still developing until the age of 25. Should we put off “adulthood” until then so that individuals are truly capable of making a choice that is best? Just a thought. http://www.amenclinics.com/
This is not a peer reviewed journal, Anon 6:05 pm.
Skeletal growth ceases at approximately age 21 in girls, and best outcomes for mother and child are seen when mothers wait till they are at least 18.
As far as I know, GrannyToad, no, the parents face no prosecution. They may not even be legally in the wrong since I got the distinct impression that they had nothing to do with setting the girl up with the boy. However, if they have any other children (especially girls) then someone might want to be making sure those children are going to be slightly more protected.
ETexas, your points are valid and well made. Of course none of it counteracts the increased physical risks for young teens giving birth and their children. I really wonder what the rate of physical and mental consequences for these young mothers AND their infants are in the FLDS. I also wonder what the rate of miscarrage and birth trauma to infants is.
Perhaps I’d misunderstood, Rebeckah, thinking I’d read that the parents tried to get them married. That’s my reference.
Check out this link
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/aug/05/flds-bishop-ordered-to-pay-148000-in-back-child/
Rebeckah said:
…your points are valid and well made. Of course none of it counteracts the increased physical risks for young teens giving birth and their children. I really wonder what the rate of physical and mental consequences for these young mothers AND their infants are in the FLDS. I also wonder what the rate of miscarrage and birth trauma to infants is.
#
I agree: nothing I said previously counteracts increased physical risks to young teens.
I doubt there’s any way to get a verifiable answer to your wonderings. Given what I’ve seen and heard for myself, however, it’s all over the map. On the upside, physically robust and healthy (breast-fed and excellent diets), near genius intelligence, to the worst birth defects and abject retardation on the other end of the spectrum. That goes for mothers and children.
Young mothers who give birth to defective infants, and/or retarded mothers who do not handle their situations well, usually have plenty of backup and help. Note, I said usually. I’ve heard of a few sad cases just as there are in the general population.
I know of countless miscarriages and some birth trauma, but that goes across all age groups. I have no special knowledge when it comes to just the teen mothers. The major teen extremes of marriage and childbirth have been since Warren’s regime – well after my exit.
Given the frightfully narrow makeup of the gene pool with little hope of expanding it, I hardly wonder anymore at whatever conditions arise, good or bad. Of course no matter what the consequences, it’s always “god’s will.” Yeah, right.
It would take a lot of money, FLDS cooperation and especially time to do a good FLDS genetic study. I would find that most interesting.
If only I’d married Bill Gates…
Proud Texan, upon reading your submission from the Go San Angelo News I noticed this quote from spokesman Willie Jessop :
“I think the unethics of CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocates) and Malonis of having inside information to then put them against the interest of the parents of the children show that they’re carpetbag lawyers making money when it’s in their best interest…”
I wonder if Mr. W. Jessop would care to comment on the “unethics” of his colleague Merrill Jessop, who calls himself a Christian bishop, but has failed to fulfill his financial obligations to his family on multiple occasions, despite court orders to do so.
I truly hope that Carolyn Jessop receives the money she justly deserves, and I wish her well on the occasion of her engagement.
Willie’s an ignorant pig.
Yeah well, I really doubt Willie will answer your question S. Did you notice that Merril’s lawyer declined to comment. I think he was frustrated with the whole mess. It took from 10:00 this morning until 5:10 this evening to get the order they got and I really doubt that Carolyn will ever see a dime of the retroactive monies owed. My best prediction is that they will be back in court on a motion for enforcement because deadbeat dad didn’t pay what he’s just agreed to pay.
Hey E. Texas, if you do marry Bill Gates, can I get an invite to the ceremony please.
Done deal, PT.
Big IF though. Melinda is a problem… ot to mention those 3 youngsters. 😉
oops… ot = not
“Perhaps I’d misunderstood, Rebeckah, thinking I’d read that the parents tried to get them married. That’s my reference.”
Yes, they did but I believe it was because the girl was pregnant. I don’t think they had anything to do with her getting pregnant in the first place except in that they obviously weren’t paying attention to what she was doing. So they didn’t pimp her out but they obviously didn’t have a clue what to do once she got pregnant!
“I doubt there’s any way to get a verifiable answer to your wonderings.”
Me too. I’ve resigned myself to live with the lack of answers. 😉
(This isn’t the first unlikely to be resolved question I’ve ever had.)
“If only I’d married Bill Gates…”
All those missed opportunities. lol
“If they continue as is, could they be the birth of another race of humans?”
If they survive another couple of millenia, possibly. I wouldn’t count on their long term survival, though. They seem to worship death and the lives they expect to have after death and that’s rather counterproductive to long term survival.
“I guess my point is that a population of 10,000 seems to be safe from dying out on account of inbreeding”
I don’t think they will die out due to inbreeding. I am concerned however that new genetic diseases will be identified in time due to inbreeding. We only know of one genetic disorder due to inbreeding in this group, there could be other disorders as well, we just don’t have enough information.
Pyruvate kinase deficiency has also been noted in a small polygamist group in Utah
http://www.nature.com/jp/journal/v30/n3/abs/jp2009118a.html
Merril has to pay up:
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/aug/05/flds-bishop-ordered-to-pay-148000-in-back-child/
Great news C-M. It is past time that deadbeat dad merril is held resposible for supporting his own children. What a great example he is for the flds, who purport to be Christians and who also purport to support and uphold families.
“Bishop” Merrill Jessop does not meet New Testament criteria for service as a Bishop. He should never have been promoted to the position of bishop in the first place, because he is a polygamist.
See 1 Timothy 3 :
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being a Bishop,a he desires a noble task. 2Now the Bishop must be ABOVE REPROACH, the husband of BUT ONE WIFE, temperate, self-controlled, RESPECTABLE, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must MANAGE HIS OWN FAMILY WELL and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a GOOD REPUTATION WITH OUTSIDERS, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
I’m sure that’s one of those parts of the Bible that were misstranslated, S. 😉
Did the FLDS purposely choose a spokesman who can’t articulate his way out of a paper bag?
“I think the unethics of CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocates) and Malonis of having inside information to then put them against the interest of the parents of the children show that they’re carpetbag lawyers making money when it’s in their best interest,” Willie Jessop said.
Rebeckah,
Here is the original Greek text,let anyone who has a doubt check it for themselves.
http://niv.scripturetext.com/1_timothy/3.htm
In the video above, Jeffs admits he was never the Prophet and that William Jessop was the true Prophet since his father’s passing.
Is the William Jessop he is referring to the same spokesperson who made the statement above regarding CASA and Natalie Malonis ?
S. The person spoke of in this video is Willie E.
The person we see in the news is Willie Roy
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700233581/Washington-County-sends-dossiers-of-select-FLDS-members-to-Texas-officials.html?pg=1
But Warren also took back what he said in this video.
From what I understand Willie E. has some major legal problems of his own. Which I for one would like to hear how those are coming along.
I really do not understand how paying or not paying child support for your own children is an anti or pro flds situation. IMO, it is an issue about being an honorable responsible father or being a lousy deadbeat dad. Religion is not a factor, even though willie trie to make it a factor.
S
No. The William Jessop Warren refers to is an older guy closer in age to Warren’s father. Warren didn’t apostate him, but put him where he was out of sight and away from most of the FLDS.
Does anyone know if he’s still alive?
Willam E. Jessop is not that old. he’s probably younger than Warren, but I don’t know his exact age. He was(is?) the bishop of the Short Creek “stake of zion”, but has been gone from there for several years, and now Warren’s brother Lyle is “acting bishop”. also, Willam E. Jessop is Fredrick M. Jessop’s step-son, he was formerly a Timpson.
And….Willie E. Jessop was one of the last ones to see Uncle Roy.
Uncle Roy was missing in action for sometime prior his death. Some of the family members were concerned about his well being and the seperation of his family. Supposedly he was in Colorado with Willie E.
Not long after they started “investigating” Uncle Roy supposedly showed up in some type of health care facility.
you mean Uncle Fred, right Walton? Uncle Roy died in 1986.
Yes, Uncle Fred died in Colorado with only two of his wives there. Some of his Short Creek family filed a missing person report bevause Fred was spirited away by Warren’s minions in secrecy.
To Chemist:
I think the child support issue is about precedent. I don’t think the FLDS men want women to believe they can get the support, which will discourage them from leaving.
Exactly SwissieMom, it shows other women that they can get out of the FLDS with their children and receive help from the father. It is a total victory for the women in the FLDS.
Does anyone know who the father of Joseph Charles Jessop is? Joe C is the father of Flora Jessop.
Hello yehaa6,
how is school going?
hhg
Swissmom, i am sure you are right, however that only makes the non payment even more reprehensible, IMO.
You’re right, Chemist — especially since they keep claiming they’re all about “free choice”. How is it a free choice is you saddle them with 5 kids before they’re old enough to vote and then make sure they know you won’t support those kids if they make a “free choice” to leave?
Anon E Mouse that is typical Willie-speak. You’d think the FLDS would get a spokesperson who was less illogical. When I read or hear a quote from Willie, it is either a “huh?” moment or a “WTF kind of gibberish did that idiot just say?” moment. This latest one is definitely a WTF moment.
What a moron he is. Is he REALLY the best they’ve got?
If he’s the best they’ve got Anon @ 3:08, they are in serious trouble. Does the man even have the standard 8th grade education that the majority of the FLDS have?
Wow Rebeckah! That has to be a statistical rarity. Who had 5 children before she turned 18?
Wow Al, why should I answer your questions. Do your own friggin’ research.
Yea. Uncle Fred. I believe that the “authorities” had questioned Willie E. Jessop. And if I remember right charges were brought about but I don’t remember reading any thing since.
Sunday evening I was withheld from the family. I did have Veda come in and I gave her a test and found out that she is with child which we thank our Heavenly Father. Ora’s child and Veda’s child were conceived during heavenly sessions.
WSJ Dictations, Wednesday, March 9, 2005
Does anyone still have a question about what goes on in heavenly sessions?
From reading the dictations, Warren took Uncle Fred to Eldorado for a while and then to Colorado where he died.
What would Warren need Fred for in Eldorado? But yeah, I heard he was there and then off to Colorado.
I think part of the questioning was when Fred died. There was something on the net about it all. I’ll try to find the link.
From what I’ve read a lot of people liked Uncle Fred.
Here are a couple of links but I am still looking for the one about social security checks.
http://texaspolygamy.blogspot.com/2007/06/what-really-happened-to-fred-m-jessop.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy361.html
Willam E. T. Jessop is 40 or 41.
PT says “Does anyone know who the father of Joseph Charles Jessop is? Joe C is the father of Flora Jessop.”
YES. Someone knows.
House of Yahweh Founder Faces Criminal Charges
Yisrayl Hawkins Denies Allegations of Polygamy and Child Abuse
08/05/2010
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/video/house-yahweh-founder-faces-criminal-charges-11338437
There are several videos on the ABC News web site that will automatically load after you watch the one linked above. Rick Ross is in the 2nd video. It is amazing how Yisrayl Hawkins’ sect resembles the FLDS – doomsday proclamations, sex with little girls and such. Is there a school some place where these control freak pedophile profits go and learn this stuff?
hey HHG, school starts in 3 weeks, I’m pretty excited for it, I’m all registered and all the FAFSA info has been submitted. my car has been broken down for about a month though, so trying to get that all figured out before school starts. it could be worse, I’m pretty excited for school overall.
way to go yehaaa6. i know you’ll do well in school. keep us posted if you can. we’re all pulling for you.
as for the anon@6:48, very funny. i’m looking for the name. i’m wondering if he (Joe C) is related to Merril.
Great links anon.@7:13 I most definitley saw the similarities with the two groups and others.
So what next? 20 more groups popping up and using the same excuse?
New reality TV series on TLC on polygamy :
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/livefrom/post/2010/08/bigger-love-tlc-tries-polygamy-reality-series/1?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
I just heard that Rebecca Wall was served papers in Salt Lake City yesterday.
Does anyone know why ?
I’m wondering if the film above has muslim backing.
I’m guessing it’s for a fishing expedition by the FLDS and their horde of attorneys Anon Du Jour.
The name “Sister Wives” is misleading. I’m leaning towards; “Me, my wife and my concubines” (or mistresses).
If Rebecca was served *maybe* it was by the defense given their penchant for cockamamie straw man presentations like magic cows and silos. Sometimes I don’t know why judges don’t penalize FLDS’ lawyers for taking up the court’s time and taxpayers’ dollars.
It was by the defense Huesos, but for a plethera of subjects.
Discovery issues then?
Toad,
The reality show “sister wives” does not have Muslim backing to the best of my knowledge. It apparently is based in Utah.
I suppose then it could be mutually exclusive, trying to buy sympathy for polygamy. Without considering all the family or societal issues or even very many of them.
Probably Huesos.
What if the man in prison wasn’t really Warren Jeffs. He probably has over 100 brothers; many who probably look just like him. Maybe he ordered one of them to go to prison for him. This would get the government off his back. That would explain why the photos before his arrest look puzzlingly different from the photos during or after his arrest. I’m just sayin,…
oy
In Bobby Ewings dream it was Bobby Ewing that dreamt about Bobby Ewing. It wasn’t Bobby dreaming about his brother.
Now Anonymous 2:29 am, that IS a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. So where do you think Warren is now ?
Pass me the tin foil, please.
I heard a rumor that he had gotten swine flu and that is why he was still wearing a mask while in transport.
But it is indeed Warren behind the mask. Warren must still face the trials no matter if he wears a mask to court.
Michael Jackson wore a mask all the time.
I made that up. I didn’t hear anything of the sort. But it could happen. With so many people in prison and the bouncing around from here to there he could have gotten something that would require him to wear a face mask.
That was Warren in the escalde. That was Warren in Shumates court.
The LE that arrested him know their job. And so did the many after his arrest.
Warren has to go to trial. Even if it’s a man behind a mask.
Guess if it wasnt Warren, he would have said so in court? And how about that jail house confession?
HMMM Someone posted it not long ago! Then there is a little thing like DNA. You sayin Warren’s brother fathered his children for him too? What a bro!
So Sorry anon, try again! And THANKS for playing!
That would explain why the photos before his arrest look puzzlingly different from the photos during or after his arrest.
———
Has anyone else (besides Anon) actually noticed this? I didn’t find any “puzzling difference” between Warren’s pre- and post-arrest photos.
The TLC polygamy reality show is definitely about a family in Utah; home grown ex-LDS, not Muslim.
ABC 4 has photos of them
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/state/story/TLC-to-air-polygamist-reality-show-called-Sister/u5mMg47j4kyPTvfKPxNbZw.cspx
Yes they’re plainly not likely muslim heh. Wondered about cash backing and wife #4.
And that doofus anon earlier in the duncecap was one real crackerjack.
It was Warren Jeffs in the Escalde. It was Warren Jeffs they arrested.
It was Warren Jeffs in Judge Shumates courtroom.
Who is Patrica Keate?
I wonder what type of a job this man has to support four wives and all their children – or are the taxpayers supporting them ?
catwhisperer he works in advertising. I wonder if he’ll still work in advertising after the program airs and his polygamous ways are outed?
I would suspect that his marketability outside of Utah would diminish.
I think Stamp is really Warren Jeffs. Catwisperer is Merrill Jessop, Incognito. Damn Pedophiles! Your not fooling anybody.
Sorry to disappoint, I’m not Merrill, I’m a woman.
Here’s an interesting article I just found…
When Church Autonomy is Tyranny
Ignorance is the enemy of liberty. That truth has never been so forcefully made as it has been with the rescue of the hundreds of children from the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints compound in Eldorado, Texas.
http://www.nativeamericanattorneys.com/2010/08/08/when-church-autonomy-is-tyranny.html
The truth is, I’m Merrill Jessop. And boy am I not looking forward to having to pay for the children I fathered. Them wicked gentile court systems with their support for bitter apostate women!
LMAO Ellie. You go girl, I mean man.
If I was Merrill, I would show a little more concern for my children than he has shown!
Viva la France !
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7933025/Frances-interior-minister-targets-immigrants-who-practise-polygamy.html
I forget who that one nut, 40 or Malicia, was always accusing me of being, offhand. Admin have you looked yet to see which nut’s posting now?
If I was Warren I would do the right thing.
But Warren wont do anything, unless he gets money in his pocket or a tweener in his harem.
what’s this about a ‘mask’ ???
It goes with his feeding tube.
Stamp,
Masks are not needed with feeding tubes. There must be another indication for the mask.
Is there a pic of him wearing it?
What’s up with the mask? Did I miss something.
Oh y’all… that was Walton earlier this morning.
He said he made it up – Warren wearing a mask.
Walton, Patricia Keate was a wife of Rulon, now married to Warren with 2 kids, a son and daughter.
Thanks ProudTexan.
I believe there were three women that went to see Warren prior to the raid. And once again after the raid. Patricia Keate, Naomii and who was the other one?
I was just making that stuff up about Walton with the mask. But my point was that IF Warrens health was at risk or risk to others he could appear in courts with a mask, oxegen tank or whatever.
The LawEnforcemnt made no mistake in arresting the wrong man. They had the right guy. Wally’s team is trying to make it out that the person they are defending isn’t Warren.
Even if he had a “split personality” it would be Warrens body and both personalities that they can keep behind bars.
Law and Order (not sure what episode)
The Feds should have EVERYTHING in order by the time Texas is done and with that trial I believe a whole lot more will come out. Wooohooo
Stamp isn’t Warren.
Calling me “Warren” is a pretty nasty name, though, and I’m offended.
I cant think of a worse person to be called, besides hitler. Oh they tried to call me that too.
Guess they have to resort to crazy when reality and facts dont work for them.
Annette is another that visited Warren, although I’m not sure if it was at the time of the raid or not.
O that mama, “tell ’em what they wanna hear’ Annette.
Does anyone know if Warren has been moved to Washington County yet? I keep looking through the bookings and haven’t seen him show up there.
No PT, he’s still in Draper. Too bad he can’t stay there. State prisons are tougher places to live than county jails.
Warren will probably get another mug shot when he returns to Purgatory. How many different ones will that be now? Nevada, Utah-Purgatory, Utah-Draper, Arizona, Utah-Draper and back to Utah-Purgatory. That’s a lot of Kodak moments.
Say “CHEESY POLYGAMIST SMILE”
Then he’ll get one for Schleicher County and another for Huntsville.
I think he has to be in Washington County for the hearing on the 23rd. Don’t know if they’ll move him much before that or not.
Which is the mugshot with the height measure lines behind him. He looks so dorky in that one.
He always looks dorky
and Marfanoid.
Wheres Waldo?
Oi, there and there and there and there and there he is!
WHERE’S WARREN THE WALDO JEFFS?
lol with Stamp 😀
Way over there we have Wally with Warren while Willie weaves thru the walls of woolen wigs.
Judge Walther wishes we were watching the wishy washy motions of the Wobbly Wawyers whistle while they work. Wow.
And Wally and Warren sing Amen
Warren has to go to court. Even if they dress Waltzing Wanda up like Warren.
There are too many unanswered questions. I don’t care if Warren tells us the answers but someone has to share what was found and those responsible need to face their days in court and jail. jmo
Marfanoid? Huh?
I will place a link for you, Anon 1:08 am
Here you go, Anon 1:08 am :
Marfanoid appearance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marfanoid
HA! learn something new every day
Yes Warren is a Marfanoid!
Just like Waldo!
So that only describes the spidery gangliness, not the whole of marfan’s? no white spots in the hair, none of that?
FYI for any females here who have left a polygamous relationship. I have been assured that anonymity is not only necessary for this study but guaranteed.
Transition and Identity In
Women’s Experience of Leaving
a Polygamous Relationship
Wishing to speak to women over the age of 18 who were members
of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days and
have exited a polygamous relationship two or more years ago.
I am a woman focusing graduate research on women’s experience
of leaving a polygamous relationship and the impact that this
transition and experience has had on redefining oneself.
If you are willing to share your experience and reflections in
an interview which will advance research on this topic, please
contact me at tdscovil@telusplanet.net for further information.
Terri D. Scoville PhD. Candidate
Division of Applied Psychology
University of Calgary
2500 University Drive, N.W.
Calgary, Alberta, Canada T2N 1N4
tdscovil@telusplanet.net
sounds like an interesting study, please let us know when it is finally published
Ron-in-Houston,
Check your email
Has anyone seen this ? This female surgeon has been executed by the Taliban for her work with child brides…
…But it was her medical work that anchored her life. Her fiancé’s mother told The Sunday Times of London that Dr. Woo resolved to do more to promote women’s rights in Afghanistan after she treated a 14-year-old girl who had been burned after refusing to marry an older man….
Brooke is tweeting that the Utah gov is reviewing the extradition request
The Taliban is a horrible, horrible, evil entity – they want total control over all women, and those they can’t control they will kill.
Proud,
Let’s hope that we will have good news shortly.
If they requested that Texas be put ahead of Utah because of the Texas charges are more serious then we should.
Appears that Utah is in no hurry to turn over Warren Jeffs to Texas. SL Trib in article written by Brooke indicates that Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff wants to hold on to Jeffs so he can file appeal with Utah Supreme Court.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50085728-76/jeffs-request-court-extradition.html.csp
IMO perhaps Utah dosen’t want to let go of Warren Jeffs because it could result in evidence being released. that could embarrass Mark Shureleff. Of course the Utah Gov.Gary Herbert has any dislikes of the Utah AG, he could as governor have Jeffs shipped off to Texas. Hope Utah governors says off to Texas with Jeffs
This is absurd! Send Warren’s sorry a$$ on to Texas and let Utah be done with him. Warren needs a taste of Texas justice for raping 12-year-old little girls.
How corrup is Shurtleff?
IMHO Shurtleff is corrupt in his campaign finances, as seen by evidence on many websites.
I think its corrupt to allow child abuse and neglect as badly as he has.
However he gets props for busting Warren, and if he is serious about his challenge to the SCOU, I would say go for it.
I still say that if Texas requested the extradition based on the fact that they have the more serious charges, it’s a no brainer to send him to Texas for trial first. Also, it makes the request for a “speedy” trial a moot point in Washington County.
Cheese head FLDS man now wanted man for failing to appear on charges of wrecking truck loaded with suspect cheese.
‘
“A warrant has been issued for 25-year-old Ronald Jessop, of Washington, Utah.”
Read rest of article:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11939698&hl=2
Oh Goody, yet another plyg chase is on!
I think UT is just blowing smoke because they need a way out without all of the people like ya’ll getting too much mileage from them not doing enough. You all will bitch about it however it goes so they can’t win for losing, but I expect they will do the logical thing and let TX have at it now. It is obvious the charges and evidence are exponentially more egregious however controversial.
There are a bunch of you here who could write the UT AG press release to that effect, and probably better than they will.
Exciting, a big cheeser chase. Do you suppose he’s skipped the country up to the Great White North?
Do you realize what we could build with 25 ?? 700 lb blocks of cheese? Better than Lego, and lunch is no problem!
“A warrant has been issued for 25-year-old Ronald Jessop, of Washington, Utah
Well, the problem is that it’s likely a misdemeanor warrant and thus won’t be listed in the NCIC database. So, if Mr. Jessop is not detained in the state of the warrant he won’t likely be brought to justice.
If you ask me, a system needs to be devised to get interstate truckers with outstanding warrants off the road. Will he have to kill someone the next time before something is done to get this guy out from behind the wheel of an 18 wheeler?
So much for the FLDS promise to turn in those the law is looking for.
They have a system Ron. If you stopped every trucker with an outstanding warrant it would cause another great depression; a panic run on bottled water, Doritos, and Raman noodles, etc.
Here you are folks, straining at the Gnat … again. They always issue the warrant especially if they were involved in an accident. Being “at fault” in an accident does make it more serious but if he is actually running from it like an “flds criminal” fugitive I would be very surprised. They’ll get their money, which is what it’s really all about. In the meantime they have to “keep on truckin” cuz it’s what they do for a living.
Keep on talkin’
I’m still thinking grilled cheese. Maybe on seeded russian rye. A side of cream of tomato soup. Inside our House of Cheese.
No wait, make that on really good sourdough slices.
SALT LAKE CITY – Governor Gary Herbert has signed an extradition warrant to send polygamist leader Warren Jeffs to Texas to face charges there, Fox 13 has learned. The governor signed the warrant late Tuesday, a spokeswoman confirmed…
http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-governor-signs-jeffs-extradition,0,4076425.story
Excellent news. May he never see the outside of a cell.
Gov. Herbert is my new hero!!! Way to step up to the plate and do the right thing.
I would stay up a few more minutes to await the spin of Nocturnal Anon, but I am too tired.
Good night all.
40 thinks the chupacabra gunna get him in Texas or some silly thang like that
Are 40 and cupcake the same person?
Judge Walther has signed an order of “no bond” for when he gets to Texas. That will eliminate the need for a bail hearing.
I just saw the article. It is really going to happen.
Texas Justice 😀
I wonder if Warren likes grits and gravy, and if so does he like salsa on it. No, 40 and cupcake aren’t the same.
Great news, warren goes to Texas and Judge Walther has already denied bail. I expect 40 and deb lee to be frothing at the mouth about this.
what is the “chupacabra” Toad ?
Stamp,
email me.
Sorry for answering a question directed to you Granny Toad.
It is a canine type creature that opes not match the characteristics of other known canines. The history channel periodically has shows featuring it and other creatures.
Chupacabra, cultural, mythical folk animal kind of means like goatsucker. Most examples turn out to be coyotes or coons that are pretty hairless from mange.
Agreed, the “evidence” for such creatures presented on the History Channel seems quite weak.
Pictures here, some real, some fake, but regardless, interesting.
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=chupacabra%20pictures&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1024&bih=598
Pics here, some real, some fake, however interesting. A couple of the real pics show disgusting looking dogs. errr Chupies
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=chupacabra%20pictures&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1024&bih=598
This must be a Texan thing, I’ve never heard or seen anything like it.
Here’s what news media is saying about the felonious prophets upcoming trip to Texas. Wonder if Jeffs will go to Schleicher County jail or Tom Green jail. My bet wouold be on Tom Green, it has better security for someone like Warren Jeffs.
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/aug/11/no-headline—ut–polygamist_leader_2nd/
Here’s what TV station had to say about Jeffs going to Texas.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11948923
The comments are interesting to read as well as the video link on website.
Here’s the SLC newspapers on Jeffs coming here to Texas.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700055701/Gov-Gary-Herbert-signs-warrant-extraditing-Warren-Jeffs-to-Texas.html
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50085728-76/jeffs-utah-texas-request.html.csp
The comments are fun to read IMO!
Here’s another SLC TV station on Jeffs coming to Texas.
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/Herbert-signs-warrant-sending-Jeffs-to-Texas/fYw03dCKzEmf9P5dKv-0pg.cspx
THe SL Tib newspaper posted this copy of Jeffs extradition papers on it’s website:
Click to access 1281477165Jeffs%20GRAMA%20I.pdf
thanks for the various links.
Legal implications of the Utah governor signing a warrant.
Thanks Ron.
Thank you, Ron. It appears that Jeffs doesn’t care to bed down in Texas any more.
Ron in your post you said that Warren is on his way to Texas. did you mean he will be on his way to Texas? or he IS on his way to Texas?
And once in Texas he has to have a lawyer that can practice in Texas right? Wally and the gang can’t go unless they have a license to practice in Texas.
Walton
What I’m saying is that the only thing that will prevent him from coming to Texas is if Texas decides it wants to wait. Otherwise it’s a done deal.
This ought to be interesting. I am trying to read these priesthood records, but it’s taking forever. It seems like each one has like two pages of Goodness, and the rest is long drawn out sermons and trainings to his family where he teaches the same 5 concepts over and over again in different ways. I wish someone would condense the good parts into a book with perhaps a brief summary of the teachings.
I used to use my old BoM as a sleep aid.
Thanks Ron.
walton, wally and gang can practice in texas pro hac vice if they get a nice texas lawyer to sponsor them, but i’m not sure the procedures are the same. arizona seems to be able to harass the witnesses and texas doesn’t allow that.
i have the same problem jerom, it takes forever to get through a month of the dictations. the telling the same 5 principles over and over is very important though, he sure doesn’t want the family to forget them.
Here is a hint for ya Jerom
There ARENT any good parts!
But maybe you could wander into Shortcreek with a cardboard sign “Will Work For Some Advice” . . .
Jerom
Here is the condensed version – just for you!
“THIS IS NOT A TEST”
I am the prophet – I’m not the prophet – The world is ending – oops maybe next time.
And people really believe this horse crap – amazing.
Anyone who would believe that Warren Jeffs is a prophet of any type must experience a great deal of cognitive dissonance.
But it’s the same mindset that allowed Jim Jones to build his community. Remember what happened there, they drank the koolaid.
Prediction : if Warren ever is released from prison on a technicality, he will escalate in terms of his abuse of power and he will order his followers to drink the proverbial kool-aid. You can count on it.
anon the younger, i wouldn’t be surprised if he ordered it from prison.
Nor would I.
Any updates on the extradition to Texas ?
no, but i’m not surprised. we might not hear until he’s in texas.
This morning around 7:00AM went to the Utah prisons website, offender listings:
http://www.corrections.utah.gov/services/offender_search.html
Found Warren Jeffs listed along with his mug shot.
Checked website around 12:00PM, and listing for Warren Jeffs was removed, which indicates he has left the Utah prison system. He could be going to the Purgatory prison he was held in while on trial in Utah, but IMO he’s on his way to Texas, most likely to Eldorado, to be booked and then transferred to Tom Green county jail, it’s much more secure than Schleicher county’s jail.
I just found him:
Offender Number: 181536
Offender Name: WARREN STEED JEFFS
DOB: Sat, 3 Dec 1955
Height: 6 Feet 3 Inches
Weight: 145
Sex: M
Aliases: WARREN STEED JEFFS
Aren’t some of his buddy’s still at the Tom Green county jail?
I wonder, when he gets convicted will he be in the same prison as his followers and allowed to hold his sermons to them?
PT but found, where? Texas?
Sermons? What good is that? He can’t get money or little girls out of those guys any more.
Proud,
Regarding your 1:11pm post :
Where did you find Warren – listed in the Texas Jail system, or is that in another jail in Utah ?
no, in draper using the link a texan posted above.
Warren is still listed as being in the Utah State Prison in Draper on the web site A Texan linked to above.
I doubt he will be shipped to Texas until after the hearing in St. George on Aug. 23rd. But, what do I know?
I also think that he will be transported from Draper back to Purgatory – the Washington County Jail – so he can attend the hearing on the 23rd.
Then it’s off to Texas for Warren. This is all just my assumption of how things will go; it is not any inside information.
Appears that my earlier post was in error, couldn’t get website earlier to bring up Jeffs, so he’s still there in Utah it appears. My bad on that post.
Warren will still need to go before a judge before he’s handed over to Texas. He also could challenge the governor’s warrant and the Utah judge would set a time frame for him to challenge the governor’s warrant.
So, expect at least one more news story before he’s on his way to Texas.
The FLDS is proving to be a hard stone that grinds.
It’s really funny sometimes when foreigners try to translate something into American English.
Check out this news story from India –
“a warrant of deportation”
“the Texan powers that be”
“a church farm in Texas”
“two counts of collaborationist rape. ”
http://www.newkerala.com/news2/fullnews-18731.html
What’s the deal with Wendell’s pretrial scheduled for today? Did they meet? Did it get cancelled?
And how about the Dutson trial? Did they make a deal?
Walton it’s now scheduled for August 24th at 10 AM. I think this is when it was originally scheduled (but somehow changed) and his trial is scheduled to start September 7th.
I don’t know what ever happened with the Dutson case. Does anybody on this blog know?
nothing has happened with dutson, it was just continued from its setting and hasn’t been rescheduled.
It appears that Amy Goodwin is no longer Wendell’s attorney. There is N. Deborde listed instead.
Thanks.
Has anyone been able to confirm the whereabouts of those that are already suppose to be in prison? Is there a roster some where that shows for sure they are in deed in their prison?
There use to be a poster here called Deputy Dog. Does anyone know what happened to him/her? I got the feeling that Deputy Dog understood my always wanting to know exactly where those prisoners are kept.
Thanks again
I will let Deputy Dog know that you are interested in hearing from her.
Looking for Texas inmate info try
http://168.51.178.33/webapp/TDCJ/index2.htm
then do a search for their name
Here is an interview Don Teague, NBC News Correspondent, had with 6 people on the YFZ Ranch shortly after the raid. I had never seen this interview before. I thought it was strange that the men did most of the talking during the 23 minute video. Janet spoke for a few minutes, but the lady sitting next to her in the middle of the 1st row never even opened her mouth. Why was she there?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24259242#24259242
OK Walton, pathgirl gave you the link you need. We know you’ll check these FLDS dudes out, so when you find where they’re incarcerated, please share it with us here.
anon, i think you have 2 attorneys mixed up. There’s an Amy Hennington who represents various of the defendants and then there Angela Goodwin who works with Eric Nichols for the State. I don’t know of an Amy Goodwin.
Walton, Raymond is in a prison up around Tyler where the warden is a female. He’s the only one I’ve heard for sure being placed.
SID Number: 08213401
TDCJ Number: 01614421
Name: JESSOP,RAYMOND MERRIL
Race: W
Sex: M
Age: 38
Maximum Sentence Date: 2019-10-27
Current Facility: BOYD
Projected Release Date: 2019-10-27
Parole Eligibility Date: 2014-10-27
SID Number: 08213409
TDCJ Number: 01634175
Name: KEATE,ALLAN EUGENE
Race: W
Sex: M
Age: 58
Maximum Sentence Date: 2042-12-06
Current Facility: STEVENSON
Projected Release Date: 2042-12-06
Parole Eligibility Date: 2026-06-06
You’re right PT, I got them mixed up. I was referring to Angela Goodwin. Do you know who this new N. Deborde is? Will changing lawyers delay the pre-trial hearing – and thus delay Wendell’s trial?
They’re running a tight ship in 51st district court. Deadbeat Dad, Merril Jessop, has his PTH scheduled for Sept. 28th.
And next will come the big pedophile himself, Warren Jeffs.
SID Number: 08213405
TDCJ Number: 01640135
Name: EMACK,MICHAEL
Race: W
Sex: M
Age: 59
Maximum Sentence Date: 2017-01-11
Current Facility: WARE
Projected Release Date: 2017-01-11
Parole Eligibility Date: 2013-07-13
Ware is in Colorado City. Stevenson is in Cuero.
Don’t forget that Leroy Johnson Steed still has to go to trial. He’s got sexual assault, bigamy and tampering with evidence (or something like that). He was the one shredding documents at the YFZ.
SID Number: 08249110
TDCJ Number: 01644384
Name: JEFFS,LEHI BARLOW
Race: W
Sex: M
Age: 31
Maximum Sentence Date: 2018-04-08
Current Facility: HIGHTOWER
Projected Release Date: 2013-12-16
Parole Eligibility Date: 2011-03-10
Hightower is in Dayton.
SID Number: 08213411
TDCJ Number: 01653881
Name: JESSOP,MERRIL LEROY
Race: W
Sex: M
Age: 35
Maximum Sentence Date: 2085-03-07
Current Facility: BYRD
Projected Release Date: 2085-03-07
Parole Eligibility Date: 2040-03-07
Byrd is in Huntsville.
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So the guy over on the right who spoke a lot literally is ignorant of the Constitution giving State the Right and Responsibility over marriage eh? This polygamy culture is far out of tune, separate from reality. I don’t think he was lying about that.
Tack onto that they ARE lying about not knowing the law had changed when it did from 14 to 16, AND that none of FLDS have MARRIED in Texas, not legally.
Honestly Walton, I don’t worry too much about people who have been committed to the custody of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice.
There is a certain level of curiosity over which unit where they’ll spend the majority of their time, but if there is one thing where Texas excels it’s keeping track of its inmates.
i’m not to worried about one of them slipping out of bed at night and going over the wires.
Ron,
I don’t know if you have ever thought about it but incarceration is a very lucrative corporate enterprise now days. Research it if you don’t believe me. It pays better than mental institutions or nursing homes. (although Obamacare may change that) To the “system” it is the more convicts and longer sentences the better for them. They probably even bid for them.
If you could collect 100k per yer to put warren (.et .al) in an 8×10 padded cell with minimal creature comforts and keep someone (or himself) from ending his life you could retire on the profit. It might run a slight negative balance for the first year or so to cover construction costs and security (but I doubt it) … but for the next 99 years… or however long is “life” you could make a killing. (no pun intended) That is your Texas justice. Texas is very into that business with no statement as to guilt or innocence; that is another matter completely. They want the business, and the money.
It’s a tough job but someone has to do it, right?
“I don’t know if you have ever thought about it but incarceration is a very lucrative corporate enterprise now days….”
Big O,
It is cheaper in the long run than allowing a sociopath to run amuck among his own people… there are some things you just cannot place a monetary value on….
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/12/texas.polygamist.extradition/index.html?hpt=T2
CNN finally posted the story.
dang, i had several posts deleted for “personal attack” and i can’t remember what i said.must’ve been some good stuff.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24259242#24259242
We need someone to read body language.
Amy knew the age was fourteen when they came to Texas and are upset the age was upped to 16.
Amy and Janet, was this performance to get back in the good graces of Warren. What did you do to get kicked out before the raid. Where you slumming with Maggie Jessop.
Oh, Dan your time is a comin’.
Body language interpretation : lack of consistent eye contact, side ways glances, arms folded close to body = closed off, difficulty being truthful.
Life sentence in Texas, isn’t that generally 40 years max? I don’t think there are a lot of contract prisons in Texas, I could be wrong. I know there is/was that one out by Colorado City. I don’t think the cost of living is near what some negative outsiders may be thinking.
Warren Jeffs 6’3″ and 145 lbs
Wow, he is a walking skeleton.
s.- please tell Deputy Dog that I thought of her and that I miss seeing her posts. And thank you.
Pathgirl- thank you very much for the link and yes, I did check them all out. It’s all there just like Proud Texan posted. (Thank you Proud Texan)
Ron- I’ve been following this story for 13-14 years total with only 5-6 years using the computer. I’ve seen some things that I thought set in stone only to find out that the stone got blown up. It’s not that I want to distrust everyone and everything it’s just that I feel the need to be sure. And I somehow think that Deputy Dog could understand my uneasiness with the system. So I hope that no one takes it personal when I ask for a link or when I sometimes keep asking the same questions.
I appreciate everyone trying to help me. Thank you.
meme, which guy is Dan in the MSNBC video? Is he Dan Jessop, the son of deadbeat day Merril Jessop and the late Barbara Jessop? The guy who sexually abused his younger sister? Is he the blond who is sitting in the upper left of the screen in the MSNBC video? Or is this another Dan?
meme, who is Amy?
Yeah, that’s Dan Jessop, son of deadbeat dad Merril and Babs and also the molester of his younger sisters. I think the guy on the back who does most of the talking might be Rulon Keate.
Blogogre
Remember this term – “the prison-industrial complex.”
It’s a play on the old phrase “the military-industrial complex” but there is a certain truth to the prison-industrial complex.
There are a number of small towns in Texas where the local economy is dependent on folks being put into prison.
They were all lying in some form, the lady in the middle who asked about “common law”, my response, common law isn’t a legal valid marriage, so if one of the people is underage, it is still sexual assault.
Janet Jeffs Nielsen needs to go find her sister-wife Maggie. Dan can help, he’s Maggie younger brother.
There are numerous prisons that are outsourced. Jacksboro has one, Eden has one. Colorado City also.
Utah has a company that runs a business housing prisoners in other states.
3 murderers just escaped from one in AZ, 2 caught. Others are run better, but YMMV
The lady in the middle seems to think that commonlaw means anything goes, without realizing that all laws still apply THEN only does lack of the state’s legal marriage kick in, other than a few things such as representing oneselves as married and doing that for mmm I forget, is it down to 90 days now?
So Janet Jeffs Neilson is sister wife to Maggie Jeffs? So is that to the same Neilson who has been thought to be their new “leader”? How in the world do you guys keep up with whos married to who?
Yes, Janet and Maggie are married to Wendell who is the new PRESIDENT, not Profit. Janet is also a sister to the current profit Warren who is in jail.
I’d love to know who the middle two women are and the man in front of Dan Jessop.
What are the responsibilities of the President as opposed to the responsibilities of the prophet?
The lady in the front is Amy, I think. Dont know who the lady in the back is. I thought Janet Jeffs was Rulon Jeffs’ sister. They look so much alike.
Janet is Rulon’s daughter, Warren’s sister.
Not sure S, usually the profit is the president, but apparently since the current one is in jail they decided they needed someone on the outside to act so they picked wendell.
So is Wendell running a business or is he running the Church? and if so which business and what Church?
i’m guessing that wendell’s pretending to run the corporation known as the FLDS although in reality, i’m sure he’s not making too many moves without direct orders from the jailed profit.
The man in front (left) of Dan Jessop is Fred Lindsey, Sr. in the video.
What would a FLDS corporation do?
all along the flds has been a business, not a religion.
After rewatching the video mentioned above of the 6 FLDS members, I am curious about the description of the day for children in which there was not any mention of a time for just playing. Do they really believe there should not be free playtime for children at the YFZ ranch? Is this a changed emphasis for the FLDS and just for its residents? Dont recall any gym equipment or playthings but seems like there are those in the Short Creek area.
so on the back row we’ve got dan jessop, mystery woman, rulon keate and on the front row we’ve got fred lindsey, sr, amy somebody and janet jeffs.
there is a park in short creek with swing and stuff. in fact, warren jeffs house in short creek has a basketball court, which it is sais was built to lure his son mosiah back into the fold.
i think the no play is a recent thing and imposed mainly on those in eldorado. in short creek people ride bikes and do other things that would be considered playing.
those in eldorado are supposed to be the elite and unfortunately the small children are paying a price for that eliteism.
What right do cult children of the corn have to play? They need to learn their lessons early on how to be perfectly obedient and be damn serious about it.
Playing would only spoil them – better they just grow up staring at Warrens picture on the wall.
Another really good movie is The Village.If you haven’t seen it you should. Here is the alternate ending.
Written by a very wise vise individual, Rose…..
There WAS NO MANIFESTO………dropping Polygamy from Mormon Scripture.
LDS Scripture. Salt Lake City Home Team LDS
POLYGAMY IS STILL PART OF MORMON SCRIPTURE, TODAY.
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132
They have made over 4000 changes to Mormon Scripture, but POLYGAMY REMAINS.
POLYGAMY is still part of Mormon scripture.
THERE WAS NO (sic) ” WOODRUFF EDICT”….”forbidding the practicing” of polygamy.
He had 7 wives and 33 children.
There WAS NO MANIFESTO………
It’s a load of crap.
Read it.
Please read this, closely.
It’s Mormon “scripture”.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1
It’s a few lines of fractal doublespeak.
This “Official Declaration-1” is regarded as the “Manifesto”.
It’s a farce written by career fabulists.
Mormons are a fundamentally dishonest cult.
1. Wilford Woodruff (then President) just says “I (personally) don’t do it any more (myself)” (LIE !), and “the Lord told me to write: “I leave this with you, for YOU to consider”.
WW then “veto-ed” himself, years later . WW reneged and “declared”…..”this Manifesto only refers to future marriages, and does not affect past conditions.” ¹
Sedition.
This authorizes the practice of Polygamy. De Facto consent.
It was ALREADY ILLEGAL to even PRACTICE Polygamy with the passing of the Edmunds-Tucker act 1887 (WW’s first year as President).
That is a MANIFESTO? “my advice is…” and “(this)to consider” is a MANIFESTO? How freakin’ lame is that?
Not even close.
“…my intention to submit to those laws”
“Intention”…..? When? At some time in the future?
“my advice.. to refrain from (marriage)forbidden by the law of the land”.
“Advice”..? What happened to “Ordinance”?
Oh, I see. He just recommends against marriage “forbidden” by the U.S (only).
He does not make it an “Ordinance” forbidden by the church.
It is only a warning “not to get caught” by the U.S.
Mormons are a fundamentally dishonest cult.
Since when does (then General Adminstration and successor apparent to WW) Lorenzo Snow presonally declare “MANIFESTO”(1890) on behalf of President Wilford Woodruff? He wasn’t President himself until 1898.
Vice president self-ordained as Commander in Chief?
“we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding”
What declaration? There was no “declaration”.
W/W wussed out with a “No Bill”.
Ahhh, I get it. an “authorative and binding” No Bill.
That explains it.
Duplicity is king.
2. Wilford Woodruff LIES from start to finish about his complicity in the practice and teaching of Polygamy.
How is a LIE sustained as a MANIFESTO?
Now, that makes sense, too.
The MANIFESTO was just one big LIE
(and a warning not to get caught by the U.S.)
Mormons are a fundamentally dishonest cult.
Notes:
-Polygamy was only illegal state-by-state until the “Morril Anti-Bigamy Act” of 1862. …courtesy of Abe Lincoln.
-Reynolds vs. United States (1879) objection failed. Illegal Polygamy was here to stay.
– ¹ “this Manifesto only refers to future marriages, and does not affect past conditions. – WW in Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage; and LDS Church archives.
-D. Michael Quinn (historian) was ex-communicated for exposing only “some” of the above.
– “we excommunicate members for practicing Polygamy”
Clarification: (we) only excommunicate “some” Polygamous members. Not all.
-The “Manifesto” was desperation move by the Morg in 1890 to recover seized money and property after the U.S. disenfranchised and penalized them with the Edmunds-Tucker Act 1887. It took 3 years for them to realize the “confiscations” were very real.
– Violating the widely accepted “9th Commandment” –
“…..not covet thy neighbor’s wife” IS NOT PERSECUTION.
As MORMON SCRIPTURE, D&C 132, it is an OPEN CHALLENGE.
It is an ARROGANT DARE to ENGAGE in CONFLICT.
Deleting Moses’ 9th Commandment is as brazenly insolent as it gets
Their challenge was accepted and they lost.
They keep wanting these “re-matches”.
There WAS NO PERSECUTION of Mormon deviants.
“PERSECUTION” is a word they pervert to mean “a-fight-they-started-and-lost.”
Joseph Smith and Parley Pratt got killed for it.
From the MSNBC clip; ” We might have broken one or two laws”
ooops
A young couple was doing a drug run from one state to another while crossing 2 in between. They got stopped at the border with meth, pot and some other drug. In the backseat where 3 young children. The parents got arrested and the children placed in foster care. They didn’t have the option of saying “ooops” we might have broken a law or two.
A 35 year old has the mentality of a 12 year old. A man who could clearly see she had issues had sex with her and she got pregnant. He passes her around to her buddies. As the child gets older the child has been sexually abused by one or two of the “buddies” Child protective Services come in and take her child away. Should they give her back the child? ooops ?
😦
Anon @ 11:30 – Sometimes in order to see how life is today we must look back into our history to see where we were.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k7kAbHgOyo For 150 years the Native Americans were blamed solely for this act. It was just recently that some of the facts are being discussed.
i wonder if wendell gets convicted of bigamy if the state will file bigamy charges on others, starting with richard samuel jessop who went on oprah and told her flat out that he was married to 3 women.
Walton :
In the interest of fairness, the Mountain Meadows Massacre cannot hold a candle to the long list of atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic Church – and I say this to you as an ex – Catholic.
Brooke has an interesting link on her twitter feed talking about the issues of Polygamy in Canada.
One of the things the first guy talks about is what affect Polygamy will have on society as a whole. The second guy talks about a group and individuality choices. In my opinnion the 2nd guy must be between the ages of 25-32 and hasn’t a clue what affects Polygamy has on people and the rest of society.
Polygamy in my opinon is very rarely about two or three consenting adults.
What happens when a man marries 20 wives and 60 kids? Does his work place health insurance cover all? Does only one wife have health insurance and “society” picks up the tab for the others?
Housing assistance for 19 wives and kids and the county has no more money for the young girl with 3 kids who just can’t make it on min. wage?
Where and when does it stop?
Build another Church another U41 compound?
S. I understand what you are saying. And if I were on a message board talking about the issues with the Catholic Church I would share more.
so on the back row we’ve got dan jessop, mystery woman, rulon keate and on the front row we’ve got fred lindsey, sr, amy somebody and janet jeffs.
ProudTexan said this on August 14, 2010 at 8:29 AM
I suppose mystery woman is a wife of Wendell Nielsen since the other two women are his wives. Amy Rose Johnson Jessop (Uncle Fred wife) and Janet Jeffs Nielsen (who by the way was repenting from afar with Margaret (Maggie) Jessop when the raid happen.
If you will look Maggie and Janet’s names are not on the Bishops list.
The young man (right) back is Merril Leroy Keate. His wife is Irene.
He is not Rulon Keate.
Anon @ 11:30, Wilford Woodruff’s 1890 “Manifesto” was just a big “wink, wink” to his fellow Saints. Wilford Woodruff went on to take at least one more plural wife after his own “Manifesto” was presented to the Mormons during their fall conference.
“Wink, wink, oops”. Wilford must have forgotten what he had told the Saints that October in 1890.
OK anon, that makes sense about it being Merril, who is Alan’s son and not Rulon. Rulon’s wife is Lorene and they have 7 kids. The Keate guy said he just had 2. So his dad married an underage girl and 3 of his sisters were underage, but no one knew it was going on. Dan’s sister was married at 12 and several of his other sisters and nieces were married underage, but no on knew it was going on. That’s a load of crap.
Amy Rose Johnson’s daughter Sarah Elizabeth was married underage to Dan Barlow Jeffs, brother of Lehi who plead out to both charges facing him. Janet’s 3 youngest children were at the ranch. I have no clue where she was, but I don’t think she was particularly out of favor. I’ve never gotten that impression like I have with Maggie. Heck, I’ve heard that Maggie is just plain insane and that’s probably why Mudpuppy likes her so much.
No clue on the lady in middle of the back row though.
TV didn’t identify who was being interviewed?
No they didn’t, not even by 1st name.
I’m wondering if the mystery woman in the msnbc video is Maggie Jessop. She looks a lot like the photo of Maggie with Barbara down at the bottom of this page from Medvecky’s web site.
http://www.flds.ws/2009/12/09/the-ranch-has-confirmed-barbara-died-today/
Click to access 129-34-45.pdf
If the LDS church had its 1890 “Manifesto” then this must be the FLDS 2008 “Manifesto” presented by Willie Jessop:
“In the future, the church commits that it will not preside over the marriage of any woman under the age of legal consent in the jurisdiction in which the marriage takes place,” Mr. Jessop said. “The church will counsel families that they neither request nor consent to any under-age marriages. This policy will apply churchwide.”
does anyone believe willie ? I don’t
I have often wonder why Maggie Jessop and Sarah Draper had to have Medvecky solicit funds for them after the raid.
I thought the mystery lady was Margaret, but this lady looks older.
As for the “church” counseling families, that is a farce.
The “church” is Warren. A woman, girl or man marry when, where and who Warren sees in his heavenly sessions. PERIOD.
I think Carolyn Jessop as well as the cast members of Sons of Perdition have stated that underaged marriages are still taking place.
I assume up at the crik, eh?
why not FYI ?
Do you have any evidence or have you heard any (substantial) rumors to the contrary since 2008 when they made that statement? It appears that all of the problems were personally directed by warren prior to his capture. I can’t see anyone else brass enough to keep doing it in defiance of the law now.
Besides it says “council the families”… that’s fairly broad in scope. Since 2005 they admittedly knew it was a bad idea from the legal perspective.
…..have stated that (they think that there might possibly be) underage marriages still going on.
How self serving is that for them? Making wild allegations is what they do for a living.
It’s been my understanding that Jeffs is still manipulating the marionette strings right through prison bars.
Making wild allegations is what they do for a living….
Can you identify for us which of their allegation(s) is / are “wild?”
Willie, is that you ? Are you Blogogre ?
FYI, I don’t think blogogre is Willie. Blogogre uses correct English and makes more sense that Willie ever does.
Absolutely true, anon 11:35 pm.
I would await Blog O’s response, but I’m too tired.
Good night all.
Blogorge=Willie? 😆
No way. Willie has been getting a crash course on the FLDS ways since the raid.
FYI thanks for bringing that link over. I didn’t read all of it yet but I am going to later. I noticed a couple of things that popped out at me.
I watched Sons of Perdition at the Salt Lake Film Festival a few hours ago, and I was pleasantly surprised. It was a pretty unbiased view of things. and I met with Sam, Bruce, and Joe afterwards, haven’t seen those kids in a while. it was good 🙂
Yes yehaaa6, I saw Sons of Perdition as well, and there was film footage of a 14 yr old girl named Hilary who attempted to leave 3 or more times because her father told her that she would be getting married shortly (arranged marriage) – and both her parents interfered with her attempts to escape but did nothing to prevent their son from leaving. Note that Sons of Perdition was filmed within the past two years in Colorado City / Hildale and St. George, Utah. Therefore I have every reason to believe that underage marriages may still be taking place, despite the statements made above.
BlogOgre may respond but he won’t really answer your question.
Yehaa6,
I am always looking forward to your posts. I hope that when school starts you will have time to drop a note now and then.
Also glad you met up with some folks you knew/know and am interested that your opinion of the film is that it is “unbiased”.
Thanks
HHG
I just read the article linked above:
#
Click to access 129-34-45.pdf
FYI said this on August 14, 2010 at 5:46 PM
I have to say that I found it fascinating and explanatory on the logic of the extreme edge of mormonism…. seems to fit Jeffs as well.
That artcle is a long one and it goes over some of the same ground.
The LDS Church points out Fundies “arent mormons” but when you look at all the doctrine, anyone can see they have as much right to call themselves mormon as the modern LDS do.
I would agree that a more honest claim would be for the Church to clarify that they are “FUNDAMENTALIST Mormons” though.
But then they would have to explain that too, and the audience would get confused all over again.
Making wild allegations is what they do for a living….
Can you identify for us which of their allegation(s) is / are “wild?”
——–
Betty is right, I don’t answer those kind of questions because the burden of proof is on you to identify which ones aren’t wild. I don’t make your case for you. All that does is give you another chance to repeat them all and make another contribution to the “preponderance of evidence” that is nothing but repeated media.
The correct answer is that the better part of what is now public perception is allegations. With only a few exceptions the only crime is marrying 16 year olds. Which is more socially nuanced than criminal before 2005. Those younger than that were by warren himself.
I’m sure there are those who will want to jump all over that as another chance to point out the exceptions … again. But don’t miss the point. I’m not saying I think it is right to marry under 18, especially now. But I do think it highly disingenuous to try to make any variation from that political agenda into a unique flds, or even FLDS crime wave.
And like I said, I haven’t heard any substantial rumors, but I confess that I don’t personally know for sure. I just can’t picture anyone else being that crazy now, and I don’t think that warren is directing them from his cell…
In fact, maybe that’s a good example of a wild allegation to appease your curiosity. Why don’t you prove it is true, instead of expecting the FLDS to prove it isn’t… for a change. Oh, Carolyn thinks it might be… that’s proof enough for you? Apparently.
…and I still haven’t figured out why every time someone disagrees with anyone on this blog, they think it’s someone else. lol I think it’s a confession. Now there’s a wild allegation you can suck up.
Blogo
The fact remains, polygamy is illegal, no matter the ages.
So Willie saying that was like saying “We’ll keep breaking the law in our blatant way, just not in that especially egregious way”.
So its not a “wild accusation” that the FLDS still plan on breaking the law, you got it right from the horses mouth.
At least those in prison wont be breaking the law, they will be taking a Darwin Award break.
BO,
If you make the statement that the accusations are wild, then the burden of proof to back that up is on YOU, otherwise you are just blowing hot air. You don’t answer questions like that because you are a troll and your aim is to stop reasonable exchange of information and ideas and get the focus on you. So actually backing up what you say would not meet your needs.
” Which is more socially nuanced than criminal before 2005.”
What does this mean? What law changes are you talking about specifically? We have 50 states and Canada. They haven’t all changed their laws in the last five years.
It has been illegal to have sex with a 14 year old in Utah, Arizona and Texas for longer than since 2005. And it’s illegal to have sex with a 12 year old pretty much anywhere in the free world. Saying that it’s not a problem with the whole of the FLDS because only Warren did that is also a lie. One of the most basic premises of the faith of the FLDS is that their prophet, Warren Jeffs, must assign their spouses by divine inspiration. So what Warren does in this matter is a reflection on all of them who do not denounce him.
It’s only an ethics violation if I blow hot air? Your logic fallacy betty, is that you can’t prove a negative. Just because you nor anyone else has ever seen a unicorn, that doesn’t prove they didn’t exist. lol And if you snap you fingers every 15 minutes as you drive down the highway, no pink elephants will ever jump out in front of you… try it and see if you don’t believe me.
That’s the point … allegations are hot air. What makes them especially bad is they are done vindictively in the public media. But don’t believe me, only believe the hot air that you want to hear. And believing your own is even more personally rewarding.
You make the statement they are not wild, and then you try to prove it. Why isn’t that more fair. “Innocent until proven guilty” right?
Everywhere but here.
Oh, plenty of FLDS have been proven guilty.
Why do you still struggle with that, Blogo?
Not only guilty, no remorse. Guess what message that will send to the parole board.
KWIM?
No, dear, logic works here as well as anywhere else. No one is trying to disprove unicorns. Only asking you to back up YOUR wild allegation that someone else is lying for a living by giving just one example. You’re the one claiming there are unicorns, so it’s up to you to provide photos or at least a personal anecdote.
Turning the finger pointing around is a cute psychological trick, but it’s not exactly new. I don’t think it’s working on anyone else any better than it’s working on me.
Yup, Stamp. Shall we start listing FLDS members who were convicted before the raid ever happen?
Betty,
There, you said it yourself. 14 – 17 “Underage” wasn’t a crime in most states. We have to nuance it with other allegations, like polygamy or with “skeevy old men” or something. But the accusations need to specific. One of the allegations is the coercion factor. Where it is true it is a problem. Nobody I know thinks that coercion is a good idea (at any age)
But where is your litany of complaints from victims. A few yes, but it certainly doesn’t go culture wide. And why isn’t it just as much a crime to rip relationships apart by coercion? Whether it’s warren or the State, it’s still creates a tremendous amount of pain, suffering, social, and economic injustice to the “victims”.
Arranged marriages are also not unique to the flds, and not even particularly true group wide. Not to mention that even the mainstream arranges them to a large extent, they just do it differently, with economic pressures, social programs, and peer pressure etc. Only they must be done according to the current liberal politically correct agenda, and not by some mythological religious ideology.
But I know, I know, these kinds of arguments make your day because it gives you another chance to make all the allegations again.
Betty
I think one problem the FLDS have, is that while there were a lot of legal cases of underage marriage and molestation they have already slogged through, the citizens of UT / AZ had finally gotten fed up and got the message to LE.
With the new call for more law enforcement prosecution of polygamist child molesters, Warren got the message that if he wanted to continue that, he had to move, and he needed to do it all behind a tall fenced compound.
OOOPS that brings us to where we are today.
And the thought that the FLDS leopard will change its spots is pretty laughable – no one believes Willie – and after that statement, he even testified he only speaks for himself.
He has no standing. He is a bag of hot air. The FLDS have a few of those though. Truth Prevailed in Texas! Not on the FLDS website!
So ok, Prove that warren directed an underage polygamous marriage from his prison cell. I’ll go ahead and be just as appalled by that as you.
And no I can’t prove that he didn’t, but it would be especially hard if there weren’t any. You only have to find one witnessed. I’d have to depose everyone in 5 states and Canada. And even then… you wouldn’t believe them or me because the flds are all damn liars anyway. Right? Now the ex-flds, those people are convincing and credible. They KNOW how it really is. Except me of course, I’m just hot air.
Blogogre,
Respectfully, when you see a film (Sons of Perdition) with a fourteen year old girl screaming that she does not want to be married against her will, and the police are called, and a judge has issued an order of protection against the parents, and the film was shot within the past two years – this confirms the “narratives of apostates” who state that underage marriages are still taking place. I met the cast, I spoke with them, and I am a very good judge of character.
I believe them. They are not making a living off the film either. The kids I met were genuinely scared, and really never wanted to leave Colorado City in the first place – they were very conflicted about their decision to leave and depressed about it. They were struggling financially and psychologically.
At the same time, Ogre, it is my perception that you have very pleasant associations with the Colorado City community, your family, and your faith, despite the fact that you decided to leave of your own volition. I believe you and respect you, but at the same time validating you in no way invalidates my belief in the experiences of others (so called apostates) who have decided to leave because they found their experiences in the same community to be very unpleasant.
The experience of men living in polygynous, patriarchal cultures is undoubtedly much different that the experiences of women living in the same cultures. This might account for the fact that your “apostate narrative” is different from the “apostate narratives” of women.
I do value my interactions with you. Please don’t go away angry.
Please continue to post here, we respect you and we respect diversity of opinion as well.
It would be helpful and constructive if you could be specific regarding which apostate reports you found to be exaggerated.
Ogre, I don’t think you are full of hot air. You left at a different time, and you’re a man. This may account for the differences in your “apostate narrative”
Blogo
Well, while its true the FLDS cant carry any trust to save them, the point I would make is the fact there is no remorse, and no real effort to change their ways.
The prison confession of Warren was a small step in the right direction but he took it back.
So now you sit at square on. Errr your F-MORG ex-associates do.
Thats just it Stamp. The FLDS isn’t a leopard, it’s a unicorn, especially in the abused public mind.
BTW that brings up a good question.
What does F-MORG President Wendell Nielsen have to say about it?
He has been oddly silent through this dispensation.
I would like to be constructive here –
Ogre, please tell us which reports of apostates are exaggerations specifically. I have an open mind, and I am receptive to listening to you.
Blogo
The abused are the thousands of FLDS women and children victims of Warren, who stole position.
Prove to us he is the rightful holder of the car keys.
Oh, wait, there is no proof. Just his say-so.
Oh we also have his say-so that he stole position. The F-MORG must have a gymnastic mind to work around that particular truth.
What is F – MORG?
Yes, but S, When? When did that incident in the film actually take place. And how specific was it that the girl was being retrieved in order to be coerced into marriage or more importantly an underage polygamous marriage, and not just being gathered up by her family from what they consider a fate far worse? I’m guessing that it wasn’t while warren was sitting in prison. I haven’t seen it, but if it isn’t an embellished over dramatized event it will likely be the first time.
I understand the injustice well enough. But there is still a lot of drama attached to this lost boy phenomenon.
But like you all, I’m against the injustice. All of it. Including some of the vitriol I see here.
F-MORG
Fundamentalist Mormon ORGanization
Blogo
Guess if nobody broke any laws, or abused others rights, no one would give a flying flip, now would they?
Injustice = vitriol = you being annoyed? BFD X 2
Why dont you actually do something to protect people from abuse?
Oh, I’m not convinced you think there is anything wrong with the way they run their monkey business.
It doesn’t matter how he got there Stamp, if he has a following he has the power to use or abuse it.
My own belief is that if he had been right… well he would have been doing right and none of this would even be at issue.
Ogre,
The film was shot within the last two years. Most of the audience in NYC the day I attended consisted of mental health professionals. The older brother of the girl Hilary stated that at about age 14 parents and others in the community start talking about marriage to the young girls – the girl Hilary balked and ran for it. The film was live, with the police there, and an order of protection from a judge. No one in the audience could believe what they were seeing. Someone stood up at the end of the film and asked “how is it that this is still allowed to go on?” It may very well be that underage marriages are still taking place and you don’t know about it.
BTW – the only people I know in this area who have arranged marriages are Hindus and Muslims. Catholics, Protestants and Jews do not have arranged marriages here. I certainly didn’t.
Well, there is no denying he got the power, and that he did indeed abuse it.
Now that he is imprisoned, its up to the FLDS to decide if they want to further continue taking his abuse.
Some do, some dont.
BlogOgre wrote “There, you said it yourself. 14 – 17 “Underage” wasn’t a crime in most states.”
I did NOT say anything like that. The most common age of consent is 16, followed by 17 and 18. Only three of all the states and Puerto Rico allow it at 14, and in one of those it is conditional.
The complaint of the victim is not necessary, and I could really care less if a pregnant 15 year old is satisfied with her lot in life at the moment. You see, the age of consent laws assume that the child is not CAPABLE of consent. You are saying it’s only a problem if she gives consent. Circular logic on your part, you are missing the point. It is the responsibility of society to protect those who cannot protect themselves and sexual child abuse is an excellent place to start, IMHO.
“Arranged marriages are also not unique to the flds, and not even particularly true group wide. ”
They are easily proven to be a central belief of the religion as it is well documented in sermons and scripture. It is from one of the revelations of Joseph Smith that no one is married unless he says they are. If you have some references to scripture or sermons or statements of prophets to show me that my understanding is flawed, please by all means point me to them. To say that this is not a universal custom is a separate point, and I find that interesting. How do they reconcile that with their scripture and the policies of the prophet? Who performs the ceremony? Does Warren have to approve of their choices? What is the process and how does it differ from what is in Warren’s written teachings?
“Not to mention that even the mainstream arranges them to a large extent, they just do it differently, with economic pressures, social programs, and peer pressure etc”
That’s total BS. I don’t know anyone who has had their parents tell them who they were going to marry; the idea that they would be told to marry someone they have never met with only a few days notice is even more bizarre. And yet, apostate FLDS have told exactly that story over and over about their own lives.
“But I know, I know, these kinds of arguments make your day because it gives you another chance to make all the allegations again.”
You think you know my motivations but you are dead wrong.
well Stamp, I’m not interested in a flame war with someone who can be nastier than me, but you seem to have the most to say about what you know so little. But this isn’t about you or me, is it? And as to what I’m doing about it … you don’t know anything.
I’m not sure why seeing a few convictions is such a vindication for you, but it does seem to whet your appetite for more.
Be sure to let us know when you find the end of injustice, because it didn’t start and it doesn’t stop with the FLDS. Maybe you can help pass a few more laws and make a few more people into criminals by edict.
Ogre,
In what other groups do you see arranged marriages other than Hindus and Muslims in this country ?
Just curious.
For the record, I don’t know that the FLDS is still performing under aged marriages or the Jeffs is commanding it from prison. If Warren is controlling everything from inside the jail, then there is some serious corruption in the Arizona prison system because that kind of access to communication is definitely not the norm.
However, I would easily believe that they still are performing such marriages because I think that getting very young girls is the only way to continue their life style. I spent several days a year and a half ago doing math on polygamy of this type and within 7 generations, a closed group has so used up the available females of younger generations that the men of the youngest generation will get no brides at all. And I definitely think that Willie is lying whenever he moves his mouth and he himself has said he is in no way an official spokesperson.
In short, I’m not saying it’s happening, but I would not be at all shocked to find out that it is still happening and I certainly don’t think Willie’s pronouncement is a reason to call off the dogs.
Just a point of information – the Hindus and Muslims I met who had arranged marriages were allowed to meet their intended spouse and spend anywhere from 1 – 2 weeks of chaperoned time with their “intended”
Also it should be noted that the unmarried adult child had the final “say so” regarding that marriage.
“Be sure to let us know when you find the end of injustice, because it didn’t start and it doesn’t stop with the FLDS. Maybe you can help pass a few more laws and make a few more people into criminals by edict.”
Both polygamy and age of consent laws are nothing new; polygamy has been illegal for more than 100 years and most states had age of consent laws by the 1880’s. No one has been made into a criminal in this matter without their consent and so there is no injustice there. Utah ASKED to be a state and agreed to criminalizing polygamy. Slavery used to be legal, too, but it was not a trick of injustice that made it illegal, either.
From Wiki, with refernces:
” Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, with ultimate goal to raise the age to eighteen; the campaign was successful: by 1920, almost all states had raised the age of consent to sixteen or eighteen”
Reference:
^ Stephen Robertson, University of Sydney, Australia (2007-11-29). “Children and Youth in History | Age of Consent Laws”. Chnm.gmu.edu. Retrieved 2010-06-30.
^ “Campaign to Raise the Legal Age of Consent, 1885-1914, Lesson Plan”. Womhist.alexanderstreet.com. Retrieved 2010-06-30.
Not exactly 2005.
Yes, S, I think it’s a good point that “arranged marriage” could mean employing a matchmaker and is not at all like the well documented phenomenon in the FLDS in which someone is informed that they will marry someone they don’t know within hours or days after being informed. “Consent” in the sense that Warren teaches it is consenting to be married to anyone of the prophet’s choosing.
“Be sure to let us know when you find the end of injustice, because it didn’t start and it doesn’t stop with the FLDS. Maybe you can help pass a few more laws and make a few more people into criminals by edict.”
This sentence makes my eyes roll with all due respect. It falls in the category that, as a society, or individually, work on more than one problem at a time. So if I am handing out leaflets to save the whales then I am ignoring the plight of humans dying of need and neglect. I do not call myself a member of any religion, but the God I am trying to believe in has room to care about more than one thing and I do do….
So the fact that I haunt these boards says nothing whatsoever about my other endeavors on behalf of eradicating injustice that is not related to the FLDS…..How self centered of you to think it is the only concern I have or the only place where I invest my energy and money.
You are saying it’s only a problem if she gives consent. Circular logic on your part, you are missing the point. It is the responsibility of society to protect those who cannot protect themselves and sexual child abuse is an excellent place to start….
—————————-
No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that if they did consent (which I understand you don’t give them that right) then it can be just as traumatic or even moreso for them to ripped out of a relationship that they want to be in by someone who thinks they have the moral right and AUTHORITY to save them from themselves. And I am further saying that your new definition (limitation) of a “child” has a fairly recent construct that is politically driven.
But I do have to wonder if you have had any teenagers that you had to do all their thinking for them. If you have you may have some idea how difficult that really is in the real world… all the flds dogma you may have heard to the contrary notwithstanding. What they want, or what they think they want should be given some consideration if you are going to hand out life sentences for it… jmho.
That said. I don’t think anyone should be flagrantly breaking the law. So it changed. We still better serve society by keeping the law.
Just don’t hijack the high moral ground and expect me to be very impressed. But ok… I’m done. I realize that this isn’t an argument that could ever be won here. I believe you will get to see your justice served texas style.
No one should be considered of age for marriage unless they are also considered of age for consent to surgery without parental concurrence – 18.
Sorry – should read : No one should be considered of age for consent to marriage unless they are also considered of age for consent to surgery without parental concurrence – and that age is 18.
Yes Betty, but we are still arguing about the propriety, political, constitutionality, socio-economic, moral, and religious implications of some of those laws.
Some change is good as well.
I’m so glad that I could entertain you all so well this morning. But I’ll be leaving soon so don’t anyone take it personal. (you can all celebrate it though if you’d like)
I’m sure you understand all those ramifications. As do I very well. So don’t bother quoting Reynolds or some other BS line that doesn’t answer the questions or settle these issues by any stretch.
“And I am further saying that your new definition (limitation) of a “child” has a fairly recent construct that is politically driven.”
The evidence of history says that you are wrong and it is not at all recent. Unless you think 1880 is “recent”. Age of consent laws are almost exactly contemporary with female suffrage and the beginnings of legal equity of women to men. Yes, before that, no one much cared how old your slave was when you sold her. And, come to think of it, the criminalization of slavery would be a newfangled idea then also, being only a few decades older than age of consent laws.
I’m not hijacking the high moral ground. Arguing to be able have illegal sex with children is not the high moral ground any more than opposing illegal sex with children is religious bigotry. You’re right, that’s not an argument you are going to win here or in most places.
I could believe that there are other forms of religious bigotry going on against the FLDS, if you actually answered some of our questions, gave references or real stories. You may have a point that you are not sharing with us. But I’m not going to see the injustice of ending the arranged marriages of minors.
I am sensitive to the plight of young girls who gave their consent to be tools of their religion being ripped apart from their abusers, but I blame the abusers for that trauma, not the society. I honestly don’t see how anyone can really consent to having children with someone they have never even met, let alone someone who is not old enough to drive, join the army or buy alcohol. Add in that a man could lose his wives and his home if his daughter does not co-operate with the prophet’s instructions and there’s really no way I believe that the girls had any real option.
So you say S.
But I think you could make a good argument that some people are more mature in every respect at 14 than others might be at 18. Parental knowledge and consent should also be considered. Except in the case of an abortion of course, I think that was what you were hinting at.
Personally I think under 18 anything should have parental knowledge at least, if not outright consent. In my book it’s called honoring your parents.
But some people just grow up faster than others. Look at me, I’m still like a juvenile destined to perpetual ignorance because I have an flds background. (just ask Granny Toad)
“Yes Betty, but we are still arguing about the propriety, political, constitutionality, socio-economic, moral, and religious implications of some of those laws.”
Did you give an argument about how age of consent laws are unconstitutional and I missed it?
Not going to cry or celebrate if you leave.
Just because some people are “mature” at 14 and others are not at 40 does not change the role of law. Who has the right to stand in judgement of that maturity? Who defines it?
The law has to be in some ways arbitrary. Some people can drive very safely at 70 miles and hour and some should not be on the road at any speed. But that argument is not going to help you if you get a speeding ticket. The speed limit is an arbitrary number set by law for the common good. Ditto age of consent.
Well Betty, just for the record, I agree with you mostly. There is no question that some of those “bad acts” did happen and they should be stopped and punished.
I guess where I take issue is seeing all the castigation of religion in general, LDS and FLDS in particular for things (injustice) that really should never have happened in it’s name, and were most certainly not central to the fundamentals.
The principle of Plural Marriage being the only exception. And I do not believe that all of the “inherent injustice” ascribed to it is true at all. But I realize that you do.
Like they say, historically more evil has been perpetrated in the name of God than good. That’s probably the very definition of injustice.
I think children’s rights could be, and probably should be argued from a constitutional venue. But I wasn’t speaking only specifically to age of consent. This stuff is all inter-related and it does have some serious constitutional issues. Someone needs to write that book.
Heck I’ve always thought there should be a marriage license test. (Excluding the instructors drive out of course) But a relationship takes infinitely more skill to manage properly than a damn car. I would have flunked it flat, I’m certain … and I was well over 18 and pretty excited about at the time.
And what? Injustice is ok once you pass that magical 18th date of birth? I know you don’t think that.
Your last two comments made sense and I appreciate that. When you slow down and say what you really think, you aren’t half bad. LOL.
But, honestly, I don’t understand the sentence “Injustice is ok once you pass that mgical 18th date of birth?”.
All this chitchat reminds me that each time FLDS get TV airtime they blatantly lie to the world as if nobody knows they’re lying. Seems they think they’re slick, I don’t know. I’m sure there are clueless viewers who soak it up though.
If it were totally up to me, I’d make all marriage laws illegal and I’d raise the age of consent for sex to 18. I would then create a status called something like “shared household” and that could be anyone, blood relative or not, that you chose to live with and share property with. I could declare a shared household with the crazy elderly lady next door cause she wants me to care for her in her old age and I want someone to be home when my kids get off the school bus. It’s nobody’s business if we are having sex or not or what gender we are, etc. The law would allow that old lady to be on my work’s health insurance, the doctors would be able to talk to me about her health when she’s in the hospital, and I would be first in line to inherit her old broken down house.
I really, really, really think that combining concepts of religious marriage with legality and sex is a bad social mistake, a wrong turn that European culture took some time ago.
I think polygyny, being based in religion, is a horror and an enslavement of women, but I am not at all sure that making it a crime is the best way to fight it. I don’t particularly care about polyamory, because it is consensual and equally applied between genders. There is no patriarchal source of socio-economic power in it.
I think that the leadership structure of the FLDS should absolutely be broken up, but that there are plenty of crimes that could be prosecuted to do that, many of them financial in nature.
But, I doubt anyone is going to declare me Empress anytime soon, so you’re all safe.
So you say S.
But I think you could make a good argument that some people are more mature in every respect at 14 than others might be at 18.
Ogre,
Girls have not reached skeletal maturity at age 14 – they achieve it at approximately age 21. The closer to age 21 a girl is at the time of conception, the better the medical outcome from pregnancy for mother and child. I would prefer age 21 to be the minimum age but Ron tells me that won’t fly. At least have it so that a mother can legally sign her own consent for delivery or C section.
I think that’s one of the best arguments for age 18 I’ve heard, S.
It is physiological and based on medical evidence. I would prefer 21 closer to age of maternal skeletal maturity, but Ron doesn’t think it would fly.
I agree with Ron. Not practical. I’d like to see one age for everything; sex, medical, voting, military, alcohol, etc.
I personally think that most people get married before they know their spouse well enough – but then again, I probably have the longest courtship on record : 6 yrs.
I think most people get married before they know themselves well enough, but marriage sure can be a learning experience.
That is also true – most people don’t know themselves well enough before they marry. I think that there is statistical data which associates lower divorce rate with older age at time of first marriage. I’ll look for it.
i agree betty, there needs to be 1 law and it needs to be the same everywhere all over the us.
Concur – minimum age 18 – 21 would be better – due to well documented potential medical complications for mother and child when girls under 18 become pregnant
I think that’s one of the best arguments for age 18 I’ve heard, S.
—–
Yes it is a very good argument except for one small detail. It is a complete crock. (But I still like you S. I really do.) Not only that it doesn’t really matter unless science is smarter than God, which they either think they are or discount God completely. The only reason for narrowing the window of conception is social engineering, more specifically population control. “Moral is sustainable” and all that rot. Why instead of all this “science” bs don’t we just teach people about taking responsibility? Because it is difficult? Oh yeah, it is difficult! That was the problem with the Devil’s plan. It really doesn’t work.
Why not allow someone who is 16 to be responsible if they can, and stop someone who is not willing to be even if they are 20+? Just askin’… if you are really into being everyone’s (and their parents) conscience.
S. why don’t you, while you are at it, make it illegal for women over 40 to concieve? Or men over 60 to procreate? (not just with 16 year olds) There is as much or more scientific evidence of birth and medical complications there. Right? Not to mention they can’t “be there” for their offspring. But hey what is “public assistance” there for anyways? It’s this “burden on society” that is important. Right? Can’t you see where this political agenda is headed?
In fact why don’t we just cut to the chase and make it against to the law to be stupid. We are almost there. lol Then everyone ends up incarcerated for one reason or another. (except you and me of course, depending on who our Judge Walther is.)
Betty, I can always win people over when I’m ready. I just have to tell them what they want to hear instead of always trying to be so brutally honest with my opinion.
But like I said, we don’t really disagree on everything.
4:31 was me, obviously … sorry.
Ogre, why are you blogging at me anonymously at 4:31 pm ? It is not a crock and I don’t know what you mean about the “Devil’s plan.”
Are you aware of the fact that the odds are against women over 40 conceiving without assistive reproductive technology which is very expensive – so prohibitive most women cannot afford it ? Not only that – the physicians warn patients specifically about the problems that can be seen when women conceive over age 40 as part of the informed consent for procedures like in vitro fertilization. A 40 yr old has the maturity and experience to weigh the potential complications and sign an informed consent document. From a medical perspective, a 16 yr old is not considered competent to sign an informed consent independently. A 40 yr old usually has the funds and maturity to raise a child well – a 16 yr old does not. See the articles I posted last week.
I was born when my mother was under 18 so I’m asking you all to have some compassion for me for being so mentally gimped. Not to mention not being a world class athlete and below average handsome.
Sheesh… it’s no wonder everyone hates me, and here all this time I thought it just because I was a persecuted flds.
It is physiological and based on medical evidence. I would prefer 21 closer to age of maternal skeletal maturity, but Ron doesn’t think it would fly.
——————————-
I don’t think anybody starts to approach “maturity” until they are in their mid-twenties, out of school, and on their own. Thankfully, the four children my husband and I have between us have all decided to wsit at least until their late 20’s, early 30’s to get married – they were all (girls and boys) to get their education and careers on track first.
Of course these are personal believes that can’t be legislated, but an educated society is a better-off society.
S. I top you on the longest courtship. We courted 21 years before we tied the knot. We needed to be really sure about our relationship – LOL.
No one hates you and you are obviously not mentally gimped, nor are you being persecuted – certainly not by me.
Females do not usually go into premature ovarian failure at age 18, so what is the rush for young girls < 18 to become pregnant,especially when there is documented evidence of an increased risk of medical complications and the identified difficulties with child rearing that teenagers have compared to more mature females ?
I attribute a lot of my success to the fact that my mother gave birth to me at age 25 after having completed her BS degree and she was well on her way to completing her Masters Degree in Educational Psychology. She spoke several languages, had a lucrative job, was well traveled before she was married. I don't think that I would have had the same quality of upbringing if she gave birth to me at age 16.
Of course these are personal believes that can’t be legislated, but an educated society is a better-off society.
———————
AEM,
Why not legislate personal belief? Are you going soft on crime now? And the sooner we all agree with Noam Chomsky the better off the world will be, right?
I think “education” is right up there with “science” now. They have both become so political and self serving that they have to be discounted right along with all the other “religious myth”.
But then that’s just my personal belief that I should probably be arrested for and lynched asap.
Actually the best place to see where “education” hasn’t made us better off is in the field of economics. Simply because the education is propaganda and not truth, per se.
Well of course S, you are very special, and give me some credit for making an obvious exception just for you.
And I agree. What’s the rush. Of course I was very impetuous by my late 20’s but that’s no reason any other bloke should be. Get a grip guys! Not only that it would probably be worth the wait. Especially if John Law disapproves as he does now days if you don’t.
You know… actually I think I would have enjoyed a much longer courtship.
Edict that Queen Betty… wouldja please? Make it against the law to not be romantic. “I want this perv thrown in jail. Not because he seduced me, (20 years ago) that was actually nice, but because he did it way too fast”.
The truth is S. Women are not going to just wait until they are 21 to be sexually active. Ain’t gonna happen. So… if that is a given, why not “educate” them and ALLOW them to make choices (that maybe you wouldn’t) that will effect the rest of their life in a responsible positive way… like getting married and living happily ever after sometime sooner … just as one of the options. kwim?
Ok here’s an idea. Let’s make them get a two/three/four college degree in Wife and Motherhood. BS. (as in the real BS degree) That might slow them down a few years. And hey they might even meet some guy in the Husband and Father program and fall deeply in love too boot. lol
Heh.. I have a few ideas for the curriculum too.
S. I top you on the longest courtship. We courted 21 years before we tied the knot. We needed to be really sure about our relationship – LOL.
——
Ok but tell us that it was purely platonic with no “consummation” Otherwise it doesn’t count as “courtship” imho. If it wasn’t just an LTA (living together arrangement) then I am impressed. That would be a tremendous amount of self-restraint. Otherwise you are just another one of “those”. Semantics. Furthermore I doubt seriously if you would have any interest in this blog if that were the case.
But I think you might enjoy this article, the sense of humor at the least:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/consummation/consummation-a-very-peculiar-practice-928429.html
Ogre,
I always make sure I have discussions with adolescent patients regarding contraception to prevent such mishaps. Recommending abstinence to teenagers is not enough. I also tell young women that the same boys that appeal to them at age 16 may not necessarily be the same type of man they are attracted to at age 30. Given the uncertainty in many marriages due to divorce or illness it is in the best interests of the woman and her family for the mother to have a career to fall back on if a divorce occurs or if her spouse is ill or disabled. A sixteen year old girl does not have a stable career which will provide for her family in the event of illness or divorce.
Sound marital advice I have given to many patients regarding marriage is this : Marry your best friend of the opposite sex.
Likewise, I also instruct women over 40 and women on certain medications to use contraception to prevent pregnancy.
It always strikes me as comical the idea that Elissa, as she says publicly, had no idea how the baby got in there. I mean she lived and worked at the birthing clinic and did night-nurse for mothers coming and going. I guess it’s possible she could have still been that naive? She knew where it came from… but not how it got there?
Maybe that’s the best reason people should keep a breeding pair of dogs. “For the children’s sake”. And not just because the Puppys are so cute and cuddly. lol
I figured it out in the third grade all by myself … but maybe what guys have to offer to the equation is more obvious.
I think you would like most of my theories on how it “should be” but I’m not really interested in posting them.
It’s really not fair to to hyperventilate (socially/legally) because some young mother “might” be left neglected and dependent to the point that we don’t allow the rest of them, which would probably end up being a high percentage, to find “happiness of their own choosing”. I think more of them actually do end up broken hearted and dependent like that with the current social system of casual relationships etc than they ever would or have in the flds culture.
What is missing is the element of responsibility. You say they can’t be responsible until 18. I say they should be a long time before that. (and I know a lot of them who were/are)
Now let’s talk about education. Is teaching them to be responsible “indoctrination”. Well hey? So is telling them that they aren’t capable of it yet until they are over 18. The worst kind in my view. By then it’s too late to avoid some of the life long trauma in most cases. You know what I am saying. So why is that ok, but making a commitment not ok?
And, don’t forget that even after “consent” at any legal age people will still often regret their choice. More often than not statistically. Admittedly a lot of that is due to ignorance, but your college educated socially liberalized monogamistic scientifically found alternate lifestyle accepting culture does not seem to fixing that little problem.
Blogo
” And as to what I’m doing about it … you don’t know anything.”
Well, sure we know Blogo. We see you write what you feel. Your excuse for the FLDS is that these crimes didnt start, nor end with them.
Well, thats about the lamest excuse I’ve heard. Some one ought to add that to the list of excuses.
#75: Child Molesting didnt start nor end with the FLDS. So why y’all pickin on us?
Deer Do It List – Revised 3/29/2010 / 8-15-2010
1. But it’s legal in France at 13 (Whoops , those darn French changed the legal age of consent to 15. Those Frenchies they must have thought the FLDS would move to France and just to persecute those holy FLDS people changed the age all of a sudden in…..1945!)
2. How do you know they really had sex just because there’s a baby?
3. DNA isn’t conclusive.
4. But other people get teenagers pregnant and they don’t go to jail! It’s not fair!
5. America’s high schools corrupt children and give them condoms!
6. But they consented and so did their parents, so it can’t be wrong.
7. They changed the law just to get them (even though the girl is 12 and would be jail bait regardless).
8. Jurisdiction! Sure she’s got a baby, but you don’t know where it was actually conceived. Just because they got married and live together at the ranch doesn’t mean anything. They could have driven to Reno, had sex, and driven back. And that makes it moral and all as well as legal.
9. It can’t be illegal cause Holy Father tells uncle warren what to say.
10. The children are more likely to be assaulted by CPS than by their husbands!
11. The Virgin Mary was only 13.
12. It’s natural. Teenagers are better at childbirth than older women anyway.
13. Our ancestors did it. Why, 150 years ago, this was normal.
14. They have all those hormones stirring up in them and it’s better to get them married off early to an older man who can support them than to let them and their illegitimate kids live in poverty and shame.
15. It’s Flora’s fault.
16. It’s Carolyn’s fault.
17. It’s Dan Fischer’s fault.
18. It’s Flora’s and Carolyn’s fault!
19. A grand jury can indict a ham sandwich!
20. It’s genocide!
21. The CPS is in cahoots with the Southern Baptists!
22. You’re all Nazis!
23. First Amendment, Freedom of Religion, Press, Assembly!
24. Fourth Amendment, Unreasonable Search and Seizure, Warrants!
25. Fifth Amendment, Indictments, Due Process, Self-Incrimination!
26. Sixth Amendment, Fair and Speedy Trial!
27. Eighth Amendment, Excessive Bail!
28. The Judge is in cahoots with CPS (She should be disbarred, run out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, how dare she)
29. The whole system is unfair because it is run by a bunch of lesbian menopausal hysterical women who can’t be fair to the FLDS.
30. It’s all Malonis’ fault!
31. We are unaware of any underage marriages here.
32. Although spiritual marriages (may) occur, they are not necessarily consummated until the girls are of age.
33. A girl’s greatest calling is to be a sister wife and Mother (sometimes all of the above at the same time, depending on who she marries, grandfather, uncle, brother, [step]dad).
34. Three raids on three polygamists groups in 6 months is a conspiracy to take down Mitt Romney.
35. “I don’t understand why she was taken away from me.”
36. Polygamy is needed because there are two percent more women than men, and without a husband, those women would live in poverty.
37. Deer do it.
38. Its all a plot because CPS needed blonde-haired, blue-eyed baby’s to sell.
39. She could have gotten impregnated with a turkey baster.
40. Warren can change DNA by reassigning families.
41. Somewhere on the internet there is a list of statistics that have absolutely nothing to do with anything, so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls and everyone should just shut up about it.
42. BAPTIST BUSES, BAPTIST BUSES, BAPTIST BUSES.
43. 30 years ago some baby died in Ireland so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls.
44. I’ve been her step-father for eight years, she owes me.
45. I have married her two older sisters and given her nephew and nieces, it’s all in the family now.
46. It’s not my fault, her mother was reassigned to me then she began to ovulate.
47. She’s my 24th wife and I am 62 years old her wifely duties will be easier if compared to a mother wife.
48. This is Gentile persecution because monogamy leaves their gentlemen sex obsessed and jealous.
49. Her mother liked me so much as a reassigned husband, she insisted that I marry her daughter, I was just trying to be a good provider.
50. “The dictations may not be correct. A girl’s diary I violated had her lying in it”
51. Wisan is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
52. Walther is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
53. Denise Lindberg is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
54. New from Raymond Jessop’s trial – FLDS girls are sluts and will have sex with anyone.
55. Also new from Raymond Jessop’s trial – My FLDS brothers are scumbags and are having sex with my wives.
56. The governor should have called Warren Jeffs personally and explained any law of the state that “might” affect the FLDS.
57. For every conviction, there will be ten more to take our place
58. It’s all Dr. Beall’s fault.
59. They are all false memories, that’s not really a baby you see.
60. Because the FLDS Trolls want to divert attention away from illegal acts.
61. If polygamy were legal, Tiger Woods wouldn’t have cheated on his wife with various and assorted cocktail waitresses and porn actresses.
62. According to Wee Willie Jessop: “Sexual assault of a child is a “victimless” crime, we are being persecuted.”
63. 12 and 13 year olds are liable to start having sex spontaneously. To keep them holy, they are hooked up and married to a well matured already married grandfatherly type.
64. It will cost Texas too much money to uphold their laws. Eventually the FLDS will win the right to sexually assault children because Texas will run out of money.
65. Because Texas is dominated by KKK bigots, or alternatively, Texas is dominated by anti-white bigots.
66. It’s just a waste of time and money to prosecute FLDS because God told Uncle Warren all the evil gentiles will soon be wiped off the earth.
67. We are a peaceful people, so we should be allowed to rape little girls.
68. The cows are sacred and “irreplaceable.” FREE THE COWS!!!
69. It’s holy to us because it’s part of our religion.
70. It is a conspiracy of hypnotists implanting false memories.
71. Someone, somewhere, for some reason wrote a diary so the FLDS should be allowed to rape little girls.
72. From Warren Jeffs’ own dictations – God told me to because the end is near.
73. From Warren Jeffs’ own dictations – Bring on the destructions!
74. “If baby boys get circumcised without their consent, girls can be married at menses without their consent too, it seems only fair”.
#75 Child Molesting didnt start nor end with the FLDS. So why y’all pickin on us?
(Last one Gratis of Blogogre)
Stamp, it is just your self-serving definition of what is a child that makes you so un-objective. Surely we agree that under 16 is fair now. But it hasn’t always been this clearly defined. But you keep lumping all the 12 to 18 into the same aghast “statistic”. I think that is intellectually dishonest.
Furthermore I am not defending anyone for breaking the law.
My argument is more to the morality, or more specifically your hijacking the high moral ground as if you had discovered some new political/legal Papal Bull that justifies you in your own brand of Inquisition.
oh hey.. there it is itemized for you S. The list of wild allegations.
Gratis the rubber Stamp.
All them “real funny” and hardly any proof to go with. But real good entertainment and so easy to believe because you heard it on the news…somewhere.
Blogo
I am one of those rare few who have been aware of the FLDS and other polygamist crimes since the ’90’s – before Warren stole position.
So dont try to blow smoke up my skirt. I’ve seen and commented on the crimes since before Dean Singleton bought the Trib.
Instead of being paranoid and acting persecuted why dont your guys just follow the law?
“It always strikes me as comical the idea that Elissa, as she says publicly, had no idea how the baby got in there. I mean she lived and worked at the birthing clinic and did night-nurse for mothers coming and going. I guess it’s possible she could have still been that naive? She knew where it came from… but not how it got there?”
Ogre, my favorite troll, does Elissa actually have an RN degree or certification ?
I think not.
Therefore, I cannot speculate regarding what she was taught as part of her “education” as a nurse. She was not a nurse according to any legal practice standard, to the best of my knowledge.
I am familiar with the curriculum provided to RNs, and it includes of course information regarding sexuality, pregnancy, contraception, and delivery.
Do the FLDS provide sex education in school, or at home ?
As a point of information, sex education is required in NY State for everyone by age 11.
The truth is S. Women are not going to just wait until they are 21 to be sexually active. Ain’t gonna happen. said BlogOgre
Bunch of B.S. – an opinion used to justify getting them young. Furthermore – for women being sexually active does not necessarily have to imply immediate parenthood ….
i think you left out the sacred silo argument\ stamp.
i don’t buy the theory that women aren’t going to wait, it’s the men who continually push women to have sex. they are the ones who won’t wait and keep on and keep on.
And me, longer.
That list up there is excuses people have actually given.
No it doesn’t imply parenthood at all, Hellohell.
Maybe something more along the lines of this is your idea of how it should work?
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/08/10/outraged-moms-trashy-daughters/print/
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of getting them while they still posses some virtue or even chastity. *gasp* But I do realize that is a sexist patriarchal indoctrinated pov nowdays, even though I would put the same charge on the men as well.
Blogo said: It didn’t start with the FLDS and it won’t end with the FLDS.
He’s right. And it doesn’t help when there are groups swarming around like flies on poop to help point all the fingers at one group to take the attention off the others.
If I were FARM’n I guess a person would see this a lot of the time.
Excuses made for over 100 years about breaking the law and blaming it on others.
Spit it out blogo.
I do agree with you Proud, that the burden of immorality should be placed squarely on the men. We really should make the women wait for a good man to come along… however few and far between.
And even if they have to share one. (sorry, I couldn’t help tossing that in) lol
Walt, you are still deliberately acting ignorant to the fact that the “Law” itself has often been at the very crux of the religious debate.
And to the fact that the law is often broken in enforcing it.
so ppttahh… it’s been spit.
You are winning. That is true enough, but that doesn’t mean you are right.
well if it’s going to be OK for men to have more than one wife, i think that women should be allowed more than one husband. i’ll need one for each day of the week and a separate one for my cabana boy, preferably young, muscular and tan.
blogorge look at this: http://www.all-encompassingly.com/mormon-beliefs-obeying-the-laws-of-the-land/
#12 states that, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”
Hot off the Washington County Sheriff’s office Bookings:
JESSOP, JACOB NATHAN JR
Birth Date: 05/21/83
Address : 750 N CENTRAL ST, Hildale, UT
Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
18:56:28 08/15/10 Keil, Jamie WCJL
Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
COMMITMENT COMMITMENT-COURT ORDE BM MOJP 0.00 [No Payments Made]
LOL Proud !
Proud,
I know that you speak French, so I thought that you would enjoy this video of Une Femme Comme Une Autre (A Woman Like Any Other) by Patricia Kaas – the lament of a neglected polygamist spouse
Proud, I think you should go for it if you think you are that good. What’s stopping you? Don’t worry they won’t prosecute you for polygamy unless you abuse one of them or have to coerce them into the arrangement.
Getting What You Want, Wanting What You Get
http://www.fredoneverything.net/HookingUp.shtml
Sorry could not embed – find it here :
BlogOgre wrote “Betty, I can always win people over when I’m ready. I just have to tell them what they want to hear instead of always trying to be so brutally honest with my opinion.”
I don’t think you are being honest at all.
Blogo said
“oh hey.. there it is itemized for you S. The list of wild allegations.”
AFTER he said
“because it didn’t start and it doesn’t stop with the FLDS.”
So as you see, Blogo, yours and those other pathetic excuses have often tried to simply pin it on a scapegoat.
Look within for your own sin. You cant rub it off on others.
What is missing is the element of responsibility. You say they can’t be responsible until 18. I say they should be a long time before that. (and I know a lot of them who were/are)
———
Sure but when you’re talking about responsibility, you don’t mean getting a job or a car or a mortgage. You don’t mention wanting to lower the age for getting a drivers license or voting or joining the army or graduating high school. No, you’re just focused on the age at which the young girls become mothers. How very FLDS of you, B.O.
On that post he contradicts himself in the very next sentence.
Girls 14 or so might be so mature, but he knows all these people over 18 who make poor choices.
So what is it?
Blog
your argument about “marrying” young because they are all going to experiment anyway….
So let’s just write a law that says all children who have reached puberty should be married that way all experimentation will take place within a “marriage” which makes the whole thing a lot less distasteful….
Yes – I would have been proud to marry off my 12 year olds to some other 12 year olds.
My son would have been ready to support the incoming baby, my daughter would have been ready to support the incoming baby…
and with menses decreasing due to change in diet we can envision marrying off 6 year old girls to prevent them from experimenting….
You are making a logical fallacy that the purpose of marriage is to prevent sexual experimentation….
That may by the purpose of marriage within the FLDS culture, but it certainly not how marriage is perceived by anyone I know.
Blogogre wrote ” The list of wild allegations.”
The list of excuses were created one at a time from experiences that most of us here had over the last two years or so. Most of the early ones were lifted straight from posts by apologists for child abuse and/or polygyny, including “deer do it”. Proof not needed because there was a large number of witnesses (20 or more still associating online).
The BO show still hasn’t offered anything here but snide attacks on individuals, and other logical fallacies.
no, hellohell
You are the one who is making that logical fallacy into another wild allegation. I’m only saying that if you won’t allow the right things to happen sometimes you can be pretty sure that some of the wrong ones will instead. And I am saying that maturity isn’t always only about age. Neither is wisdom.
I am not trying to change the legal age. I just think it’s a crock for some of you get so all fired “moral” about it when your own culture is obviously such a damn big mess by comparison. It probably is a good idea to wait until you are at least 18 to screw up your life.
so what is it stamp. Most people will go ahead and make a mess out of their life, just some sooner than others — because they can.
In fact if we were all smarter about it marriage wouldn’t always need to such an “experiment”.
I do agree with Proud though, it is the fault of the men. Honest, well educated responsible men tend to quite well still, in spite of all the liberalism and feminism etc, no matter which vocation, culture, or religion they choose.
The prevailing conventional wisdom for most young men now days is “Don’t get married at all” because there’s high percent chance you’ll just end up screwed over by some divorce court in the end anyway.
So, where does that leave the women? Especially the spoilt ones who are self-defined not so much by who they select but by who they can reject. That is what happens when virtue is not politically correct.
Seriously, with only a few exceptions, I do not think that the flds culture is your real problem. Talk about strawmen, and finding someone else to blame; a reason to grab up a banner and go on a big crusade. Yes stamp, same to ya…look within.
Granny you must have broken all your mirrors a long long time ago. Do you even remember what YOU look like?
Where is your “contribution”? I did notice you could anthropologically diagnose my parents in absentia. That is a rare talent for sure.
Yes Betty, I know where that list came from. Mostly extrapolated from other arguments. You’ll notice also that most of them have been embellished into hyperbole especially for the list, and then treated like a direct quote to help further abuse the public mind. Great fun though.
The responsibility of a just society is ensuring the welfare of its most vulnerable subjects.
We have been told by fundamentalists of various groups (including fundamentalist Christians, not just FLDS) that when a girl menstruates, this is “a sign from God” that she is ready to become a wife and mother.
Here is the fallacy regarding that reasoning – girls as young as 6 have been described to menstruate.
Should we then marry them off?
Such young girls often have precocious sexual interest – should we allow them to conceive ?
The data indicates that when such a young girl conceives, the baby often dies, or the mother dies, or the baby has many complex medical problems which interfere with its survival and future well being – such as the future development of cerebral palsy.
The medical literature is clear – girls do not reach skeletal maturity till approximately age 21. That is why we frequently see low birth weight babies born to teenage mothers – there is competition if you will between the nutritional needs of the mother and the fetus. There is an increased risk of fetal and infant mortality when teenagers have children. Sociological studies indicate that teenagers don’t do as a good a job as women over age 20 in raising their children.
All of this data suggests to me the minimum age for marriage needs to be increased, in the interests of maternal and child health and welfare.
We all understand that teenagers sometimes make mistakes and become pregnant. Abstinence may be best, but contraception should be systematically taught to prevent such tragedies.
Honestly S, I have never heard any doctrine contrary to the science you are quoting. Any “flds” who say that menstruation means old enough for marriage are really talking out of school. As a doctrine … “a sign from God” good grief, it’s another of the untrue allegations. Maybe warren thought that? I dunno, he got a bit unhinged, but I agree it’s a crock.
No, BlogOgre, the list has not been extrapolated or exaggerated. There really are people that crazy out there; most of them were lifted directly from posts or from news.
For instance, one of them is verbatim from the mouth of one of the victims to a news reporter.
Actually Protestant Christian fundamentalists have said this, and I saw one FLDS person type this on a blog. I am not suggesting this is FLDS doctrine.
I’m not so sure about the skeletal maturity thing. I’ll have to take your word on that one. But it is fairly obvious that nature doesn’t seem to wait for that. Maybe as a “civilized society” we should.
I think we should be teaching Tantra for Teenagers as the SexEed. That would solve a whole lot of these issues and fill in a lot of the misunderstanding blanks for them rather quickly. lol
Ogre,
Skeletal maturity is determined by closure of the growth plates of the bones. This occurs at age 21 on average in females – see any orthopedic radiology textbook.
I understand that Betty… but you can’t take your little “scripture” Chapter and verse out of context. It’s never the same when you do that. You’ll start to sound like warren’s teaching. Canonizing especially for the insiders. Droning repetitions exegesis to make sure the un-indoctrinated masses can finally “get it”.
I agree though, there is a lot of people out there paddling with one oar still.
PT, is this Jacob Nathan Jessop who was arrested the same Nathan Jessop who owned Goodwork Construction with his brother Richard Shem Jessop?
If so, then there are probably a few banks and lawyers who’d like to speak with this guy. Nathan and Shem stiffed numerous banks, heavy equipment companies and land developers in Washington County, Utah. They skipped out of town owing many hundreds of thousands of dollars.
There were several lawsuits against them which they lost by default because they ran away from their financial responsibilities and cheated these companies out of their money.
Your whole discussion on the corruption of “our” culture is less than original and shows a wide streak of misogyny. Women are learning to take care of themselves and to get from marriage the same thing men get; partnership and companionship, not a meal ticket. Divorce courts these days award spousal support and child support based not on gender but on circumstances and so a woman making a lot of money is just as likely to pay spousal support as a man making a lot of money. It happens on a daily basis all over the nation. The whole argument that women should marry to protect themselves from financial ruin and/or shame is a hateful lie. The idea that polygynist males can support three families where as a single mother cannot support even one flies in the face of evidence and reality. If 40% of everyone in the Creek gets support in the form of food stamps and Medicare, it’s ample proof that polygamy does NOT protect women and children from poverty; the federal and state governments are doing that apparently.
You keep trying to make a differentiation between the beliefs of Warren and those of the FLDS. I find that disingenuous, as you like to call it. Warren never said that women can or should be married at menoarch, it’s true. He said clearly, over and over, that people should be married when and how he dictated based on his revelations and that anything else was adultery and apostacy. He said, clearly, in his dictations, more than once, that he was deliberately marrying off under aged girls as a statement that his word is more powerful than the law, and that the prosecution and persecution of him for this would bring upon the end times and destruction of the gentile. It’s on youtube, it’s on the internet, it’s in print. And as long as the FLDS members say he’s their perfect prophet, obey him, offer up their daughters, launder money on his orders, walk away from their families and their homes on his orders, then they are guilty of whatever atrocities he commits. And as long as you continue to say that what the prophet says is an anomoly and not a reflection of the FLDS, then your credibility with me is just about zero, since that goes against pretty much anything I read about the FLDS or by the FLDS. It makes me think that you are not what you claim to be.
I realize S, that is your favorite “finding”… so I’ll take your word on it. I just may not find it as significant as you do. (just kidding)
Someone made the comment that blogorge had much to offer.
Much what? I’ve seen more doo doo here than cleaning a barn filled with Real cows.
http://www.newerspreader.com/
“but you can’t take your little “scripture” Chapter and verse out of context. It’s never the same when you do that. You’ll start to sound like warren’s teaching. Canonizing especially for the insiders. Droning repetitions exegesis to make sure the un-indoctrinated masses can finally “get it”.”
There’s no data in that paragraph, just a lot of emotion and I can’t make sense of it at all. The list of excuses amounts to “wild allegations” simply because it is oft repeated? There’s some context that makes it OK for a rape victim to think God ordered her rape? Who’s been canonized? Must have happened while I was on vacation cause I don’t remember any miracles.
Jacob Nathan Jessop runs JNJ Construction in Las Vegas. It is a cash cow company for the FLDS. They are probably using underage child labor in their work, according to this 2006 TV report on JNJ.
From reporter Darcy Spears with Channel 3 in Las Vegas:
JNJ Engineering’s Jacob Jessop and his family live in a million-dollar home on Gilbert Lane in northwest Las Vegas and another one in Hildale, Utah.
The company has nearly $10.5 million in government contracts with the City, County and Water District. Spokesperson J.C. Davis says $9.6 million of that is with the Water District alone. “They keep getting contracts because they keep bidding on contracts.”
JNJ often undercuts the next lowest bidder by tens or hundreds of thousands, and their bids are also often hundreds of thousands less than the government engineer’s own estimate.
Neither the Water District, nor the County, nor the City, have any mechanism in place to check on contract compliance. They don’t require employee lists, dates of birth, or social security numbers, so they don’t know whether proper wages are being paid, and they don’t know how old the workers are. The only way that would be checked out is if someone complained to the Labor Department.
I’m with you, Walton.
WOW look at these property taxes Jacob has to pay –
Jacob N Jessop 5800 Gilbert Lane $11,137.74
http://lasvegas.blockshopper.com/taxes/by_zip/89130
I agree with Betty on blograe’s contribution to the discussion.
The argument that there are some 16 year old girls who are mature and whom we should allow to make the decision to marry and have children is not persuasive. There are also boys who are mature at 16. Why do the flds not allow those boys to marry the mature 16 year old girls.? Also, if the prophet makes all the decisions concerning marriage it is not the girl or boy’s decision.
Blograe also criticizes the age of consent applying to everyone with no exceptions applying to mature people, etc. Certain activities are mandated by age, driving a car on public roads, drinking alcoholic beverages, signing contracts, voting, joining the service, etc. These ages are legislated by legislative bodies and are enforced by the appropriate law enforcement agencies. Statures cannot be written with vague exceptions for “maturity”, not can law enforcement interview someone caught driving at age 14 when the legal age is 16 to determine that this person fits the exception.
First word in the last sentence of my 9:46 am postshould be statutes.
Another correction, it must be early in the morning. Walton actually made the comment about blograe’s contribution being of little to no value.
From another article on Jacob Nathan Jessop in the San Angelo Standard Times –
Government procurement officers say they have been surprised at the dramatically low bids JNJ has submitted in recent years.
“We were nervous because their bid was so much lower than anyone else’s,” said Pamela Lynn, senior procurement officer of the Mohave County, Ariz., Procurement Department.
JNJ Engineering successfully bid $419,994 in January to win a contract to make improvements to the Lake Juniper Water System in Arizona, beating the second-lowest bidder by more than $125,000.
The firm won 13 contracts totaling more than $11 million with the Las Vegas Valley Water District from 2004 through 2007, all awarded to the lowest bidder.
“They do submit bids that are quite a bit lower than our engineer’s estimate,” said water district spokesman Bronson Mack. “But they don’t get every contract that they bid, not in the least.”
FLDS linked to low-bid construction firms
BY THOMAS HARGROVE and GAVIN OFF, Scripps Howard News Service
Posted April 16, 2008 at midnight
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/16/flds-linked-to-low-bid-construction-firms/
Agree chemist, we should have one set of laws governing the community. The laws we have should protect vulnerable subjects and should be based on scientific evidence when available. No group of people, religious or otherwise, should think it is above the law.
I haven’t claimed to be anything Betty. That’s why I always make a distinction between FLDS (warren) and flds (fundamentalist).
I am a nobody; Blogogre.
I suggest you do some reading on the Divorce Industry phenomenon. It’s an eye-opener on how the system really works. Scary, and a lot bigger problem than most people realize. The system has an incredible incentive to rip marriages apart and capitalize on the shreds. Most men have to experience it first hand to even believe it is THAT bad. I promise if you educate yourself on this topic you’ll toss the “deadbeat dad” acronym around a lot less freely.
Child support? Heh, they don’t even care if the “deadbeat” doesn’t pay it because it all goes through them anyway and once they get a “deadbeat” classification then they get to collect it from the feds. Then they get to incarcerate the poor sap and make money on that too. He gets zero credit for anything that doesn’t got thru them and whatever he can pay (to them) just goes in their sinkhole. To the men it is the closest thing to debtor prison since the feudal ages. In other words, it works better for them, (and the lawyers) if it doesn’t work for either party of the divorce. And don’t kid yourself they don’t even give a shit about the kids. Turn them into the next round of suckers. But don’t take my word for it, read the book. Seriously no guy should get married without that understanding at the least. Let’s teach that in our SexEd classes too. It would put a crimp in the libido if nothing else. lol
I know that sounded like a rant, but no.. I an not bitter. I’m just telling you how it really is. This is your system. The one that is so much better than anything the flds might have to offer their poor deluded cult. Now the FLDS, they just do reassignments, but that’s another matter – plus i don’t think that is even legal either, but that also is another matter, but in the long run it might even less cruel. (don’t take that to mean i think it’s a good idea)
I disagree largely with your whole first paragraph. But we already both knew that. But if you are happy with it … I am happy. kwim?
http://www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=5342377
Flora Jessop alleges that one reason polygamist companies win competitive bids is the use of unpaid child labor. Residents of booming Mesquite say they often see boys as young as ten working on housing projects.
“These children are not children. They are currency. One hundred percent of their pay is turned over to Warren Jeffs to continue his rampage,” Flora Jessop continued.
I think JNJ had been cited and fined by Department of Labor for having kids work at their sites. I also think that there have been photos proving the claims. So why are they still getting Govt. contracts?
Is this the same outfit that is working in Montana?
Yeah I know how it works, a contribution to the discussion to you people has to be in lockstep. If it’s not something you agree with just marginalize it and post some of the old propaganda.
Ho Hum… as granny says.
Walton,
Why are there 10 yr olds working ? Hasn’t someone called a regulatory agency yet ?
Because it is a wild allegation, S.
http://www.childbrides.org/nevada_KVBC_tax_dollars_funding_Warren.html
Paragon Contractors Corporation, another Hildale, Utah FLDS construction company, was fined more than $10,000 by the U.S. Department of Labor for employing minors aged 12, 13 and 15, and failing to pay them for their work.
This is not a wild allegation. It is an unfortunate and ego dystonic reality for you, Blog – O.
Your welcome Stamp. Good to see you.
Here is another link that backs up what we’ve been saying.
http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=3489&wit_id=7325
There is no news in that article Stamp. Read it carefully and you’ll see that it is only “news” if you think that Flora spin is true.
failing to pay “them” is part of the spin Darcy didn’t source that paragraph but I’m betting it should have been in quotes as well.
Walt knows better, but hey? Flora says what he likes to hear.
btw, that arrest posted was JNJ (junior) from what I could see. Not the same as these articles? i’m just wondering.
Still not news Walt… it’s the same people, with all the same “sources” yep.. making the same allegations.
See.. this is what I’ve been saying all along. Re-posted media being used as “evidence”.
You are out of gas Blogorge. lol
But I’d be willing to believe some of what you say if YOU could back up anything you’ve said.
Has, I wonder, FBI, Schleicher county deputies, or Texas Rangers checked out any/all of the vin numbers on heavy equipment stored on or used by FLDS out at the human breeding ranch, to match with missing and stolen high dollar assets?
And I’m still wondering what’s become of that unlicensed cheese wheeling Jessop.
A lot of it is, or could be true, but this “testimony” is NOT the evidence. That’s my point here.
Yes Ogre, back up what you say. How do you know for certain that these are wild allegations ? Regulatory agencies don’t fine businesses without solid evidence
I don’t think the Department of Labor is going to fine ANYONE without evidence.
Photos have been taken. Testimony given. Citations given.
Well ya Walton,
But you are like the terrorist who only has to explode one bomb, and you have JIHAD…hoo yaa. While I on the other hand would have to spend the rest of my life trying to defuse any of the others and tracking down all the “threats”.
Yep.. I’m out of that gas. lol
It’s grim though, warren did make it easy for you. That’s the real tragedy.
Photos have been taken. Testimony given. Citations given.
——
Well lets see some of that. I betcha it will look quite different than it got reported. Just a hunch… knowing what I know about how the media “sources” this stuff.(and protects their source)
Tell me Blogorge- Are you really trying to defuse anything when you are making excuses for a group or groups that use the word Religion as an excuse to continue to break the law? That continue to deny that there is a problem?
I’ve been up front from get go about how I feel about Polygamy. I’ve been up front about how I don’t like what has been done to these kids, women and yes even some of the men. It is WRONG.
If you have to be deceitful about what you are doing doesn’t that say something?
You aren’t defusing anything. I might have some respect for you and your group if you would finally come clean.
I guess what bothers me most about you walton is how you pretend to be an honest seeker of the truth. But it’s obvious you have an agenda that goes way beyond that.
My problem is that I can’t defend my fundamentals without making it look like I support or defend people who don’t live them. So yeah, I’m worn out on that. I guess it is futile, especially when there are so many who want to believe the worst.
Besides… it really isn’t my group anymore. But I know first hand that they are getting a bad rap in a lot of ways. Thanks to warren.
Your words don’t hurt me Blogorge.
Believe the worst? It’s been proven Blogorge. I didn’t make it up.
Ogre,
I strongly suggest that you see the film Sons of Perdition.
In it the children show pictures of themselves when they were much younger – and the pictures indicate that they were trained to engage in construction work as young children.
You are really losing objectivity here.
As a former Catholic, I can believe in Christianity but at the same time I can condemn the crimes of the papacy, the Crusades, and other atrocities committed in the name of God.
You need to develop the objective ability to do the same.
And where do you suppose Warren learned these things from Blogorge? Who taught Warren? And Rulon used what to gain his power?
Can’t blame Warren for everything.
Walton,
How did Rulon gain power?
The best and shortest way to explain S. is in it’s history.
It’s all in the history. jmo Right Blogorge?
Walton,
Whose history ? Rulon’s history ? I was asking about how Rulon rose to power …
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2709009
One of Cedar City’s most prominent citizens told us he saw nearly a dozen young kids working on a house last month. Other contractors say they see it routinely.
DeMille said, “And you see the little, tiny kids out cutting the boards to size and packing the lumber to the framers. It’s pretty scary. I mean, there are a lot of dangers out there.”
There is one big exception in the law. Kids are allowed on construction sites if their parent is 100 percent the owner of the company. Whether that’s relevant in this case, we don’t know.
We sent the photos to R & W and asked if they could identify the kids. They haven’t responded, and they won’t tell us if Willie Jessop is the sole owner.
Oh believe me S, I do condemn it. Maybe not here to the extent you would like to see it but I know way more about all this than you might think.
And as to objectivity, that’s what I do not see here. Very little in most and none by some of the more adversarial verbose. It’s mostly somewhere between outright ridicule and ho-hum, unless they hear what they want to hear. Or they want something proven that can’t be, whereas allegations are good enough if its what they want to see.
And here again … teaching children to work should not be a crime. Exploiting them yes, but times have changed… a lot. I worked as a kid and felt great about it (usually). But then I didn’t have someone like you to complain for me, and there was no ramped up lawless CPS then, and not enough scientific “findings” yet, so I guess I missed out on the “injustice” of it all. But back then we still had some freedoms to balance it out all this not being protected from ourself. *sigh*
But hey, I would do a lot of thing differently now too. Times have changed. I mean, I would panic if my kids climbed around on the mountain ledges like I did. I’m sorry, but maybe I survived to torment you. lol
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy9.html
S. This will help explain a little of that history. But it goes back much further.
Thanks for the link Walton. I’ll review it later.
I will return this evening.
The ancestors of the FLDS had backbone and strength. They stood up and spoke about what they believed in and they didn’t live in a state that promised to do nothing.
Liars lie.
Thieves steal.
Blog
you have consistently said Warren is out of line, but you persist in stating that as a whole the FLDS are the target of misinformation.
What the “outside” world sees is evidence that the FLDS continue to follow and revere Warren – his picture remains up in homes on the ranch, his “answer them nothing” and refuse to interact with the UEP trust continues, as the film shows, young girls are “pursued” but young boys are not…etc etc. Thus we conclude, with what evidence we have, that the bulk of FLDS follow the tenants of Warren. We have heard of no new prophet in place.
That implies that the adult FLDS have to accept responsibility for the bad rap they are getting because “they” have not stood up and denounced the prophet.
When current members within the community do that then outsiders might decide not to tar them with the same brush…..
BlogOgre,
Your rant on divorce is odd. Divorce Industry???? It’s called family court, dude.
Why do you assume that I know less than you do about divorce? You think I live in a hut on a tropical island or something?
I’ve been divorced twice, my husband of 15 years once, I have lots of friends who have been divorced, two step daughters, etc. I made a casual study of it when I was divorced in 1995, because the family law in my state had changed significantly in 1993-4 and all of my assumptions were invalidated by those changes. I know for sure that what you are saying is either very anecdotal or just plain wrong.
I know that Arizona requires that all child support go through them, but most states do not do that. My state doesn’t make the payments through them unless there is a well proven track record of missed payments; it takes a separate court order to do that.
I also know some dead beat dads personally. I know one man who works cash under the table and then brags that he has never paid one dime for the support of his children. May he rot in hell where he belongs.
It’s pretty well documented that Merrill Jessop is a dead beat dad. He has not to date paid one penny voluntarily, even though he has a handicapped son amongst one of his 8 children by Carolyn.
FLDS upbringing certainly leaves members clueless, particularly those who choose to keep cluefree. Those whose minds are opened are treasures.
GT, I think your statement could apply to everyone not just FLDS or former members.
I think the Jacob who was arrested is the son of the one in Las Vegas. He’s Jacob, Jr.
The flds are the americn Taliban. Very restricted rights for women, prairie instead of burquas.
You might think that anon2:35. You’ve no reason to, it’s not logical.
Please continue on Open Discussion #36 – THANKS – ADMIN
“Actually I was thinking more along the lines of getting them while they still posses some virtue or even chastity. *gasp* But I do realize that is a sexist patriarchal indoctrinated pov nowdays, even though I would put the same charge on the men as well.”
How on Earth is a man who is already married to multiple women going to be “chaste” for his wedding to his latest tweener bride?
I don’t see it. Polygyny and “chastity” for both partners is pretty much impossible. You can only truly expect that in monogamous situations.
Getting them while they are chaste means getting them before they have the option to make their own decisions; i.e. too young!
Wow betty… you confirmed all my suspicions. So divorce worked out pretty well for you… twice. Why am i not surprised? you still are clueless about the how the system works. Prove me wrong. I dare you. Are you paying child support… to some “deadbeat” hah. what a laugh. And tell me you have teenagers who still love you. I would love to hear about that. Impress me. I’d love to be wrong… for a change.
I don’t see it. Polygyny and “chastity” for both partners is pretty much impossible. You can only truly expect that in monogamous situations.
—–
That is a good argument, Rebeckah. Really it is. But we have to make a distinction between Virtue and Chasity. Neither actually has to explicitly imply virginity. But I grant that would be a hard concept for you to grasp.
Keep the faith.
Getting them while they are chaste means getting them before they have the option to make their own decisions; i.e. too young!
—–
Now there is a confession if I’ve ever heard one. How sad we have arrived to where virtue is fault.
I don’t see it. Polygyny and “chastity” for both partners is pretty much impossible. You can only truly expect that in monogamous situations.
Amen Rebeckah !
The Christian religion has consistently taught that chastity & celibacy are virtues for both men and women prior to marriage, and that monogamy is the only acceptable form of marriage. Any teaching which purports to be Christian and teaches that polygyny is acceptable or required for salvation is erroneous doctrine. The “double standard” of religious polygyny is not acceptable for Christians.
1 Corinthians 7: 1 – 2
1Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own WIFE, (singular) and let every woman have HER OWN husband.