Warren: “Build me a Bed”

Inside the Polygamist Retreat
temple bed pic

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on September 17, 2009.

221 Responses to “Warren: “Build me a Bed””

  1. WOW

    Let there be no question, the Temple was set up as place to rape little 12 year old girls.

    Thank you Texas, for denying a religous tax exemption for this heinous house of horrors!

    Let all who wondered, now be clued in to the utter horrific acts this group engages in.

  2. Dang!

  3. Julie Worth on the Trib tries to pawn it off as a “Massage Bed” for Warren.

    I reckon thats why he married them at twelve, so they could give him little MASSAGES with their little fingers?

  4. If I was making it to Warrens specs I would have put on little toy wooden wagon wheels and pushcart handles.

    Just sayin.

  5. No words. Just sick, sick, sick. I hope the profits get their due.

  6. Funny, KW, that’s exactly, word for word, what I was just thinking:
    sick, sick, sick.

  7. So Warren’s channeling messages that require the bed to be covered in plastic to protect the mattress from what will happen there? Go Julie Worth! Your defenses are priceless!

  8. From Texas Monthly article….
    Commissioner Heiligenstein told me that if allegations of abuse resurfaced at the YFZ Ranch, she wouldn’t hesitate to intervene, though she believed such a scenario was unlikely. In her opinion, the FLDS had learned from this ordeal that Texas was intolerant of underage marriages. “It is our belief that future abuse to these and other children will no longer occur,” she said. “The FLDS has too much to risk and too much to lose if they don’t abide by the laws of Texas.”

    Ms. Commissioner you have made a grave mistake thinking the abuse is over. As long as Warren and his ilk breaths, the abuse will continue. You just gave the the red light.

  9. Sorry I intented to say “Green Light”.

  10. Gee, anon, I thought you meant “red light” as in the red light district.

    Appropriate, after all, in its way.

  11. You would think the FLDS would see red lights and red flag warnings all the time.

    But then some idiot politician speaks up and says “Oh, THEY MUST be behaving NOW!

    DUH I dont think so!!

    Isnt polygamy still illegal in Texas? They break that law and any other law that happens to cross their path.

    Give em a chance to lie, they wont disappoint!

  12. It’s too bad no evidence of abuse could be found and all the children were returned, huh?

  13. Actually, anon, a LOT of evidence of abuse was found… and then politics raised its hoary head, and the children were sent back ANYway.

  14. anon.

    Oh yeah, abuse was found. Why do you think the Dirty Dozen are going to prison?

    Arent you glad they didnt find YOUR DNA tangled up with some tweeners baby?

    Maybe you were saved that fate by the skin of your teeth.

    At least there will be some priesthood openings coming up soon, perhaps you can lead them to live a lawful lifestyle from now on.

    Or not.

  15. Lighter side–
    You are aware that one thing that was noticed in the red Escalade was a wife’s car seat that wasn’t properly secured to the vehicle.

  16. HA HA

    Yeah, those pesky child car booster seats for the wives are hard to keep in order!

    And the fact the wives wont be old enough to drive for 4 or 5 years! A man has to hustle her around like a taxi, dang!

  17. Let there be no question, the Temple was set up as place to rape little 12 year old girls

    What an imagination you have, is that all you thing about? Sex with 12 year olds.

    It is obvious that if the document is legit, the bed was built exclusivly for Warren and not anyone else, per the instructions it was to be built to his size only. Probably a place for him to receive visions, meditation, Mormon ritual, or something. If it was for him and his “brides”, the documents would have spelled that out given his propensity to write down everything, including his marriages to young brides.

  18. Does Warren leak when he has visions duane?

    What “Will Happen On It”?

    He didnt say it was for visions or Massages, did he?

    Look at the pictures of him french kissing girls, figure it out duane, I know you can add 2 + 2.

    Oh, and the baby DNA they have against him? Icing on the cake.

    Warren is screwed and tattooed.

  19. Gee and I guess that throws the old “BUT BUT BUT The Bed is for the Gardener” conspiracy right out the window, doughnut?

  20. Actually my first thought was exactly what Duane is saying but then there’s the part about the plastic sheet and references to what will happen on tge bed. So…..

  21. What “Will Happen On It”?

    He didnt say it was for visions or Massages, did he?

    No, but he didn’t say it was for raping 12 year olds either.

    Look at the pictures of him french kissing girls

    How does “french kissing” girls relate to a rape bed? What is the connection? What if the bride was 20, then we could safely conclude the bed wasn’t used for sex?
    So if the bed WAS used for massages or visions then that would be proof that Warren didn’t marry underage girls?
    I don’t see the correllation between kissing an underage girl and a ritual sex bed. Are you saying all men who have relations with underage partners have “ritual sex beds”?

    Bottom line is we don’t know what the bed was used for but obviously it was specifically for Warren and Warren only. Not Warren and a “bride”.

  22. The plastice sheet could be to protect the mattress from “holy” oils used in a ritual anointing or something.

  23. Then there’s the instruction that the bed be made of hard wood so that it does not rattle when it shakes and rails to hold him on place while the Lord does his work with him. So duane …what do you think Warrens doing that requires a plastic sheet and shaking bed?

  24. “What “Will Happen On It”?”

    He could be writhing from the visions, you know like Pentecostals speaking in “tongues”.

  25. If someone tried to marry my daughter when she turns 12, I would probably wind up in prison before him. And I wouldn’t allow him to say “well, me might not consummate it for 6 years.”

  26. Ken, Warren using oils and engaging in some ritual that involves lots of body movement like speaking in tongues, seances, etc…the bed is narrow as side boards were required to keep from falling off it.
    If it was to be used for sex, it would be much wider and more comfy.

  27. Could be holy announting oils. Sounds more like Warren is having grand mal seizures but we would have heard if Warren was suffering from a seizure disorder in prison.

    I’m not convinced it was a ritual sex bed but I think that’s a good possibility. The fact that Willie called it a groundskeepers bed makes me think they’re hiding something sinister and I don’t know what that would be other than a bed where sexual assaults were taking place. Ritual sex beds are a historical fact and that fits with Warrens peculiar fascination with historical rites and practices.

  28. Cement – we know Warren consummated marriages with underage children. The argument that dealings are just betrothals is hogwash. Warren is under indictment for sexual assault of Merrianne. The state must have some evidence the “marriage” was consummated. It had to have been when she was 12 years old because she didn’t even turn 13 until after ge was captured.

  29. duane

    “How does “french kissing” girls relate to a rape bed? What is the connection?”

    Duh, what is the connection?

    “First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes baby in the baby carriage”

    OK, so you are telling me that the FLDS skip the love part (well you didnt tell me but we all know) and then ya tell me they get married (well we know they dont, they get an index card though) and then yes they have babies in the baby carriage.

    Thats why the Dirty Dozen are going to trial duane!

    There is a little thing called “DNA” proving it!

    And you think Warren skipped using his rape altar?

    After they fixed it up so fancy for him, yanno, to spec?

  30. BTW duane, there are ample “Dictations” located on this site, find for the class if you will, examples of his Massages, holy oil, and farting about in a dither.

    Oh, you couldnt find it? DANG.

  31. Yeah that betrothal crap is just that – crap.

    The DNA will tell a different story.

    Whadda they say on the raunch?

    “The Truth Will Prevail”

    With a little help from Science!

  32. I was checking out the comments at the Texas monthly site.

    Stamp?

  33. Yessir Walton Sir

    And no I am not Natalie, but hey, I take it as a compliment!

    Natalie has done enough to qualify as an honorary Texas Ranger.

    JMHO of course, and I am not a Texan, though I am related to some!

  34. I think the Mormon teachings before this physical life comes into existence for every living being and their beliefs in how Jesus mother Mary came to be pregnant with Him points a clue to these vague instructions and a need to have a bed in the Temple to begin with. It certainly isn’t being described for a practical use but rather some spiritual application involving the Almighty and Warren as his instrument here on Earth. Seems very far fetched to have a bed and need to disassemble it and keep it from view or permanent display and on wheels? Definitely was to be used in some form of religious activity and elevated up to the height of a table. Wonder what the pages just before and just after this page say? You don’t think Warren wrote down the specifics do you? Maybe were back wondering why he’s on suicide watch and he is wanting to pass away.

  35. :) Thanks Stamp. After reading what BillM wrote I wasn’t sure. Not that it makes any difference.

    I have a lot of respect for Natalie Malonis. I mean an awful lot. Not only does she have book smarts but she has people smarts. jmo

    Does anyone know where to find the Texas Senate Hearing on video? Where are their voices?

  36. “The fact that Willie called it a groundskeepers bed makes me think they’re hiding something sinister”

    There were conventional beds used as fainting couches located in other parts of the temple, those were the beds Willie must have been referring to.

  37. Seems very far fetched to have a bed and need to disassemble it and keep it from view or permanent display and on wheels?/i>

    Well it seems that this particular bed was set up and on display when LE entered the room as can be seen by the photo. Warren had been incarcerated for nearly 2 years at the time so it wasn’t of dire importanct to keep it folded up and hidden.

  38. The bed was not on display. It was in a closet and law enforcement had to wheel it out and assemble it.

  39. There were conventional beds used as fainting couches located in other parts of the temple.
    ===================
    I couldn’t resist. Why are people fainting?

  40. I’m thinkin’ I heard a rumor awhile back that there are some kind of recordings of Warren doing the dirty with one or more underage wives… I wonder where I heard that.

  41. texasrattle, I’m thinking there were some kind of recordings (either on the many computers or on the homemade CD/DVD’s) found in the Red Escalade with Warren when he was captured. I’m pretty sure I heard something about some of those contained recordings of Warren doing the dirty with underaged girls.

  42. Hope it’ll come out in court someday so we’ll for sure know.

  43. Duane Warren left evidence of one of his rituals.
    It is now a two year old child.

  44. Let’s assume Warren gets out of jail in a few years, ( which I hope he doesn’t), would he have to register as a sex offender?
    Hmm, in my State they can’t live close to a school, would that mean also home schools in Texas?
    How about the dirty dozen, if they get convicted, would they have to stay away from their victims?

  45. if the dirty dozen get convicted then they’d be in one of the prisons around the state and there isn’t one in Eldorado. It is my understanding that those who have been charged can’t be around their victims, hence sally and her girls still living off the ranch and annette and her family. although i heard that raymond had moved to san angelo recently to be closer to his attorney to help prepare his defense.

  46. My daughter is a licensed medical massage therapist.
    She said that bed/table is totally unsuitable to give someone a massage on, unless one stands on the bench, but it does not look like one should stand on and there would have to be benches on both sides.The railing would be in the way, for often therapists have to brace their knees, thighs against the table. It also is too high, seeing the people in the room, a therapist would have to work with their arms up, it’s just not done.
    Maybe God kicks the sh.t out of his bowls when he gets a talking to.

  47. C-M

    THANKS

    Of course that bed isnt a massage bed any more than its a Groundskeeper bed.

    Maybe its Dr. Evil’s Time Machine?

  48. The fact that Willie called it a groundskeepers bed makes me think they’re hiding something sinister…
    =============================================
    Nah that was Winston Blackmore who said that. Due to internal politics he never saw the ranch.

  49. which issue of texas monthly is the flds article in?

  50. ALI

    GOT Link? I do. So who is unarmed WC? Oh yeah, the FLDS who think “Lies will Prevail”

    =========

    One of the most controversial claims made after the raid was that authorities found beds in the temple that were supposedly used for men to have sex with young women who had just married in the church.

    Willie says this is absolutely not true.

    “If they found it, would they have returned the children? What they found was a facility for a groundskeeper or for worship,” he says.

    “There is no religious ceremony that involves sex in any temple that I’m aware of or affiliated with.

    http://www.oprah.com/article/oprahshow/20090325-orig-polygamist-ranch/4

  51. Anon

    http://www.texasmonthly.com/2009-10-01/feature2.php

  52. It was Winston Blackmore who originally made the comment that it was a caretaker’s bed. Willie ran with it and embellished. Neither of those men had been in the Temple and I doubt anyone had seen the bed other than the worker bees who built it and Warren’s harem. I’m sure the bed pictures come as a surprise to most of the FLDS community. It sure makes them look complicit when they make excuses without really knowing what was going on.

  53. BTW – isn’t it curious that Alin would know something so obscure like Winston Blackmore originally saying it’s a caretaker bed (I’m not even sure that has been publicized) , yet Alin does not even know Elissa Wall’s name.

    Hmmm.

  54. thanks for the link stamp. i went to hastings to get a copy and they still had out the sept issue with the article about Mayor Lown and his running off with his boyfriend.

  55. Anon

    I guess the internet has faster delivery?

    Also, yes isnt it curious that Alinusara is such an expert.

    One would think that such an expert would realize how toasted the FLDS are.

    And I’m talking burnt black toast!

  56. It creeps me out, everytime I see the bed pictures. Doncha wish the walls could talk??? Too bad there weren’t hidden cameras to settle the debate…or they haven’t been found yet. Creeepy!

  57. Soozie or maybe they have been found but the information from them just not released yet?? Lots more evidence will come out as the dirty dozen go to trial.

  58. Soozie

    Its rumored that Warren was caught with audio tapes of his virgin victims when he was captured as a FBI top ten fugitive.

    Apparently he enjoyed listening over and over to the screams and complaining of the children he molested.

  59. Seems very far fetched to have a bed and need to disassemble it and keep it from view or permanent display and on wheels?

    Are you saying it is far fetched to have a “bed” unless it is used for rape? I still don’t get it, why are you so sure this bed was used to rape girls? It may not be the best bed for a massage, but as a bed to have sex on, it is even worse.
    Again, do people who engage in underage sex tend to do it on “ritual sex beds” as opposed to a regular bed, in a park, or a motel?
    Alsy FLDS Texas, Trent Nelson pointed out that you named this photo “yfz-rape-altar”. Do you know for a fact that is what it was used for? I bet it was used for some sort of Mormon ritual that would be known to scholars. What about the LDS, do they practice secret sex rituals in the SLC temple? How do we know they don’t?

  60. I am copying this from Brook’s blog where I posted it, because I expect it to be deleted.

    ************************************************
    Yesterday, when talking about the tour bus, Trent made this comment.

    “Though I should say that I recognize the vitriol that the FLDS community feels from the anti sites. If you roll your cursor over the photo of the temple bed that Texas FLDS posted today, you’ll notice that the photo is titled “YFZ-RAPE-ALTAR.JPG””

    My response is in moderation, as I knew it would be. My question to Trent was what the heck did HE think it was?

    What we know about it:
    Well, we have the weird picture.
    It was made to Jeff’s detailed instructions.
    He specifically said it had to be big enough for him to lay in.
    He wanted the rails on it so that HE would not fall out while god was “working” through him.
    It needs a plastic cover to protect the mattress from what is to be done upon it.

    So, what can it be?

    I understand the need for a journalist to be unbiased and to stick to the facts. But at some point, painting a group of people who follow and condone a man who “allegedly” took 12 year old brides for himself and assigned very young brides to others as a matter of course as being kind sweet normal people is in itself evil. That “allegedly” is more and more tenuous given the convictions and the growing mountains of evidence, not to mention the 14-15 year old girls with 2 year old babies. How can you be confronted with serial child rape and pretend that this is just your regular old church meeting, taking pictures of them canning peaches!?!?! Sure, there are members far away from this depth of commitment to obedience to a narcissist psychopath, but if you go right into the ranks of the “elite” who gave up their daughters and performed ‘marriages’ on them and then tell us we are being hateful to object, I am just dumb founded at your…..journalist lack of bias? hypocrisy? stupidity? gullibility? amazing capacity for denial?

    We KNOW the bed is not for dead people cause Warren said he was going to do HIS work on it. So what work can that be, TRENT????? You tell me!

    In reading the book “Favorite Wife”, we get to see how one group of people, who were full of a sincere desire to serve God, and to give over their lives for their beliefs, were slowly but surely split apart and corrupted by a leader who demanded MURDER and other crimes of his followers. We already know how this can be done with a group of people who started out with the best of intentions.

  61. What we know about it:
    Well, we have the weird picture.
    It was made to Jeff’s detailed instructions.
    He specifically said it had to be big enough for him to lay in.
    He wanted the rails on it so that HE would not fall out while god was “working” through him.
    It needs a plastic cover to protect the mattress from what is to be done upon it.

    so what can it be?

    Is that the only conclusion you can come up with? That it was used for raping underage girls? What if was used for sex with women who were over 40? Some sort of mid-life fertility ritual?

    But I digress, since it was to be built to be a size “big enough for me to lay on” as opposed to “big enough for me and my bride to lay on”
    the obvious conclusion is that only Warren was to use it. Also, the doc remarks that only Warren is “pull it out and set up”. It was most likely used for some sort of ritual, perhaps involving holy anointing oils, herbs or something like that.

  62. I’m listening, duane. What was Warren going to do with it by himself that requires a plastic sheet? And his brides, being 12 and all, are generally sort of small, not a problem.

  63. Alin wrote “Nah that was Winston Blackmore who said that. Due to internal politics he never saw the ranch.”

    Wrong again. Are you that dumb, or do you just lie like a rug?

    Willie said that on the Oprah show, on video.

  64. “Maybe were back wondering why he’s on suicide watch and he is wanting to pass away.”

    Yup. He can see himself dying in prison as the most likely outcome and wants to speed it up.

    I think the defense team knows EXACTLY what the bed was used for and at least a little of who was in it when used. That’s why they are trying everything they can to get it thrown out!

  65. “It sure makes them look complicit when they make excuses without really knowing what was going on.”

    Well, I very much respect people like cement, who started putting two and two together and coming up with a crisis of faith.

  66. Betty, like I said, perhaps he was to take peyote, go into a trance and have Heavenly “visions” or receive revelations…probably minus the peyote.

    This is not unusual at all. Think of native american shamans swaying and changing, Pentecostals and other fundies who go into some sort of hypnosis and shake and shimmy on the ground as if they are having seizures…something along those lines is far more likely.

  67. cement wrote “I couldn’t resist. Why are people fainting?”

    I’m laughing my butt off. Especially since, by most reports, only a few people on the ranch ever even went into the Temple.

  68. Ken wrote “Ritual sex beds are a historical fact and that fits with Warrens peculiar fascination with historical rites and practices.”

    Oh, I want to know more about history! Is this Mormon history? Any sources?

  69. I very much respect people like cement

    Remember when cement was utterly convinced he was helping to build a secret “crematorium”? Before the dications were released he went by the name “furnace”. At that time, everyone was convinced that indeed, a blood atonement crematorium was being built. But now we know it was a secret recipe for cement.
    I do give him credit for admitting his error. No doubt many of yoou were disappointed that it wasn’t a crematorium and had to do with nothing but a mundane cement recipe.

    Also, what about Warren’s dications that if a girl was physically unable to bear children, the husbands were to protect them until they were old enough. Some argued that 12 years old are old enough for sex, if so and it was ok by Warren, then obviously, he wouldn’t have made that statement.
    If they were marrying 5 year olds, no doubt we would know by now.

  70. Heavenly visions require plastic sheets, duane? We KNOW the man did little girls, cause there are babies. But holy roller visions are “much more likely”.

    I know! The bed is for high colonic enemas. He was fixated on colon health. That’s it. Goes with all that healthy, high fiber bread. Yeah! That’s MUCH MORE LIKELY.

  71. Cement, when people are standing up for a long time, long worship services for example or standing in formation in a military ceremony, it is not uncommon for some to faint or find it necessary to lay down.

  72. Heavenly visions require plastic sheets, duane?

    Some people put plastic sheets over upholstered furniture and mattresses to protect them from wear and not because they are having sex on them.

    The bed is for high colonic enemas. He was fixated on colon health
    That isn’t less likely than for ritual sex with virgin brides.

  73. duane,

    cement is Xflds. You are explaining it to him like you are an expert.

    Douche bag.

  74. Why should a *husband* protect an underaged girl instead of her *father*?!

  75. What was Warren going to do with it by himself that requires a plastic sheet?

    Maybe he’s a bedwetter?

  76. cement,

    Questions are powerful.

  77. Betty, are you the one that maintained that list of strawman arguments?

    #53–Cement was mistaken about a furnace, so maybe everything anyone says here, including L.E. is a mistake.

  78. I’ll update the list of excuses, cement. I seem to have a thin skin today (see calling duane names), so I’m trying to stay focused on work. Smile.

  79. it is fun to see the mental contortions and illogical conclusions ole deci duane comes up with to avoid logical conclusions and facts. Anything, including selling out his logic and reasoning to troll and to protect his flds heros who don’t even know or care that he exists. Whatever pliggy pays him is not enough!!

  80. Why should a *husband* protect an underaged girl instead of her *father*?!

    That is a good point. However, the issue is not who should “protect” the girl but what was her age when she allegedly had sex with her husband.

  81. duane you reply is incorrectly worded: INstead of “when she allegedly had sex with her husband” should be when she had sex with her alleged husband”

  82. happy Jewish New Year.

  83. No, duane, the issue >IS< that her father and mother should not have given her to a man to make babies when she was 12! And her father should not have performed the ceremony. And her mother should not have made a phone video of her crying and released it to the world along with her name!

    A 12 year old girl in Afghanistan dies in childbirth and it make international news. Jeff's had one wife who had two children by the time she was 15 and nobody gives a damn! Poor girls, maybe if they were Islamic women someone would care.

  84. Mm…. We care.

  85. -stored in the closet where no one can see it.-

    Sounds like a perfect plan in case it’s needed for someone fainting.

    -it will be the same pattern as the tables I have in my dining room.-

    I shudder to think where this thought originated from.

  86. However, the issue is not who should “protect” the girl but what was her age when she allegedly had sex with her husband.
    ===============
    I see; it should be the foxes guarding the hens, huh?

  87. Thanks, texasrattle.

  88. Jeff’s had one wife who had two children by the time she was 15 and nobody gives a damn! Poor girls, maybe if they were Islamic women someone would care.

    ____________________________

    which wife had 2 kids by 15?

  89. duane

    >””The bed is for high colonic enemas. He was fixated on colon health”

    “That isn’t less likely than for ritual sex with virgin brides.”

    ———————————

    Yer right duane, lets go with the ritual sex bed for virgin child brides.

    And absent your willingness to do that, we’ll settle for baby DNA that proves there was a rape bed on the ranch – perhaps many many of them.

  90. “if” and adult male has sex with a 12yr old you would need a plastic sheet over the mattress. Because 1. the little girl would bleed. 2. side rails are to keep the girl on the bed and keep her from falling off. 3. you certainly wouldn’t want blood or sperm left on the mattress. You can wash regular sheets or destroy them, but bodily fluids would go through a regular sheet to the mattress.
    And then you have thought no 2.
    Maybe warren liked kinky sex with more than one wife at a time. Or just naomi… Seems there was some visions of kinky sex with just wives in some of warrens dicatations.

  91. Maybe warren felt more celestial being in the top room of the temple, in an all white room with a white bed, while he took turns having sex with each of his chosen wives.

  92. while he took turns having sex with each of his chosen wives

  93. while he took turns having sex with each of his chosen wives

    Deputydawg, is your right hand sore after posting that?

  94. Man I sure hope that the rumored recordings on DVD, and the computers and the camera’s confiscated from the Red Escalade when warren was captured are released in the upcoming trials. Then dear old duane will have to eat his words when recording of warren having violent sex with a little RED headed girl on a white raised bed in a white room are released. Rumor has it that at the time warren was captured many DVD’s, computer recordings and video camera’s were confiscated LE could not identify who the poor LITTLE, RED headed girl was, hmmm think now that LE may be able to identify who the LITTLE, RED headed baby that warren was raping is?

  95. Anonymouse

    Oh no, now duane will be in a tizzy, because you need the actual evidence to rub in his nose, then he takes a month to admit it.

    ( For instance he thinks Warren was building a “Break Dancing” Bed)

    I bet duane’s latest wife still hasnt housebroken him.

  96. As I look at it I’m not sure if it is actually a ritual sex bed. The plastic cover on the mattress reference is a pretty big WTF. The only ones who know are the FLDS and they’re just lying big time as usual.

    You guys are funny as hell. Although, I wouldn’t put religious ritual enemas outside of the realms of possibility.

  97. Ron, in an interesting twist to that tin foil hat conspiracy, Warren is ACTUALLY getting REVERSE enemas.

    Yanno, down his nose with a rubber hose?

    That contrapeion is certainly a WTF bed, he called it a bed so I am guessing he wanted a bed.

    Perhaps the FLDS will pop out reproductions (authentic, naturally) to sell to the new tourist who will be arriving in the Creek shortly by the busload?

  98. And sometimes I wonder why Warren didnt just have his guys haul in a big flat rock, so he could perform AZTEC style?

  99. If they ever let Warren out there will be some “Return of the MUMMY” moments!

  100. Sorry I’m MIA, folks, but it’s that time of year.

    I couldn’t help laughing at Duane’s assertion that it wasn’t a bed for sex because it was narrow and uncomfortable. That only matters when there’s foreplay, Duane, or to the person on the bottom. It’s just not that important for rape.

    I appreciate that he specced that it be made like his dining room table. No accidents in Freudian psychology, and this was of course about his appetites, no matter how it was gussied up.

    I presume the other use (the “table”) was communion. To offer and take communion on a surface also used to deflower virgins—well, isn’t that special?

    I am still laughing at Betty’s idea that it was for colonic irrigation.

    Throughout history beds, pallets, and mattresses have been used for three things—for sleeping, for sex, and for the sick and dying. The former is ruled out. The latter is ruled out because he says explicitly that it is to hold him.

    So the presumption that it is for sex isn’t much of a leap. But I’m rather amused at the idea of skinny old Warren imagining he’s capable of making the timbers shake. What an ego.

  101. “Timbers shake.” lol Greetings you get two points. Usually it is stamp that has me spit out my morning coffee. lol

    I haven’t said anything about the bed thing because I just don’t want to have it in my head.

    The expert Mr. John Walsh had said that they have beds in the LDS Churches so people could take naps. oh wait scratch that he then said for those that were fasting and feeling faint.

    I checked out all that I could on the net, the LDS rules on beds, the Ex Mormon sites, you tube etc. Anyone describing a bed mentioned regular type beds. Like in a nurses office at school etc.

    I tried going back to Joseph Smiths time and Brigham Young to see what kind of bed they might have in their Churches. Can’t find anything.

    Warren was using the Church of Nauvoo as a guideline when he this temple built right down to certain paintings.

    Maybe this was going to be the place where he laid after he died and people for miles would come to view him?

  102. Glad to see you alive and well, with sense of humor intact, GFNY.

  103. But Walton, if this was going to be the place where he laid after he died, what is the need for the high crib rails? He’d be dead, no need to worry about thrashing around and falling out.

  104. I thought about that. The only thing I could come up with is to keep the body from falling off. The sheets I can’t explain. Unless it was from the many fallen tears from his many follwers. j/k I don’t know why they had the sheets.

    I don’t know how many are familiar with the Catholic Church. I am not Catholic but my mom was. Anyway a few years ago Pope John Paul died and they had him on display for a long time. He didn’t have any railings on the side though.

    I don’t know.

  105. Hey did you guys see Brooke posted that Sissy Spacek will be joining Big Love? She is going to play a “powerful Washington D.C. lobbyist.

    This is a good thing. :)

  106. I had my husband come in and look at the picture of the bed and explained where it was and the whole nine yards.

    He asked me if I fell on my head this morning. He said if we used my theory, why were there more than one bed. And that is what he called it. Why would they keep it in the closet?

    And then he said if that were the case then he would have had them build him a “special place” for his coffin.

    I asked him if it were truly a bed why? And he said to make little girls feel “special.” He shook his head and walked out the door.

  107. ….yet Alin does not even know Elissa Wall’s name.
    ===================================================
    I think Elissa Wall’s name is…”let me think for a minute, thinking, thinking” Ellisa Wall! Did I get it right?

  108. I asked him if it were truly a bed why? And he said to make little girls feel “special.”

    ======================
    Even if you make a girl feel special in a white room at the holiest place in a temple and you keep your clothes on, it still ain’t right. And “gentiles” who bathe together and use lingerie doesn’t make the “gentiles” immoral.

  109. I guess I keep saying this too many times, but I find it sickening hypocrisy to grow up so damn pure that we can’t see knees or low necks (evne without cleavage) and yet the same holy people are doing nonsense to underage girls.

  110. On another blog, it was rumored that in Zion, people had to keep their clothes on. When that rumor came out, even FLDS people said “Nonsense!” But if that is true, it only adds to my disgust at the hypocrisy.

  111. cement

    I think that the bed in the temple is the first for any religion I can think of.

    I’m gonna blame that one on Warren – just another in a long line of false paths he has taken.

    I do believe without a doubt his intent, we’ve seen the pics of his brides, I think he wanted to feel special more than wanting the girls to feel special.

    That said, there were probably many complaints and dissatisfaction amongst the honeymoons experienced by the flds women.

  112. Warren “I’ve been to Hawaii 99 times, this time I want to go on a Honeymoon to Europe”

    LOL

  113. cement,

    At this point, if one of the Warrenites said the sky was blue, I’d walk out and check for myself.

  114. Okay, here’s is another option… Flds believe most of the Old testament.. And in the Old testament, it talks about not spilling your “seed” on the ground.
    So maybe the plastic sheet was to make sure, when Warren jacked himself off,, all the seed could be gathered? ROFL

  115. haha…deputydog–sounds good to me…!!!!!!!!!

  116. :)

  117. Guides plan polygamy tours on Utah-Arizona line
    Sept. 18, 2009 11:07 AM
    Associated Press
    HILDALE, Utah – Former members of a polygamous church are offering outsiders a guided tour with promises to answer questions about the history and traditions of the community.

    Richard Holm and his brother Heber Holm are among those who are launching “The Polygamy Experience: A Guided Tour of Colorado City.” The first tour is Saturday.

    Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah are twin towns controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    The four-hour tour will include accounts from those who have lived in the towns. Richard Holm was exiled from the FLDS faith in 2003 by church leader Warren Jeffs. Heber Holm left the community 35 years ago.

    FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop says he hopes people won’t get suckered into what he calls a scam.

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/09/18/20090918polygamy-tour-ON.html

  118. I believe:

    1. Warren modeled this room on that hysterically stupid orgiastic scene in “The Da Vinci Code” (the book; never saw the movie);

    2. Warren Jeffs is deeply conflicted about both his masculinity and his worthiness, and the rituals played out in this room were probably grottier than we can imagine;

    3. Viagra is the root of this recent trend toward abusing young and should only be available to old men with a proven history of impotence.

    4. Warren Jeffs was a cross dresser (but I’ve mentioned that before).

  119. I saw the article on the tours and thought it was a hoot [no pun intended]. I wonder if the townspeople will hide indoors, as they have when other ‘gentiles’ sometimes passed thru. But, all in all, it would probably be an interesting afternoon. If ‘insiders’ [even if they are x'd] are more than qualified to give an overall view of life in the creek. I’d even like to go and get a better look at the town. I drove thru it many years ago and never had a clue what it was. To me it was just another town on a LONG drive back from North Rim.

  120. Gee Rebeckah, Greets and Soozie all showing up at once! Hello!

    Say Soozie, Ive been through there on the way to Lake Powell.

    It is like you took a time machine and landed in some offbeat mexiacan town in 1965.

    Without the Mexicans.

  121. BTW Greets is on to something. Warren felt dissed in the crick, so the best way to make himself special was to move off campus with the butt kissers and have them build a temple, as if this would make him special.

    Well it did, but not the way he wanted. Now he is the creepiest religo – freak on the planet.

  122. Sorry, Stamp. Glad you missed me.

    This is my busy time of the year when I wander hither and yon without internet access. And I leave again on Tuesday. But after that I’ll be here for a while.

    Hard to keep up like this, though.

  123. Hope the weather holds for ya, did you hear Dallas got rain like 40 days and nights?

    OK not that bad and maybe not as bad as you had this summer, but Dallas is out of the drought zone@

  124. dallas is, but san antonio isn’t. when you are driving, you can see the line where the rain is still so needed.

  125. Stamp, I live near mexico.I recently took a cruise where we stopped in Ensenada. Talk about a time warp! It looks like the same as when I went there as…eeeek…an underage drinker! But, you’re right..add a few prairie dresses and people with the ‘deer caught in the headlights’ looks and wham..it’s the crick!

  126. I’m not too far from Dallas..we have had lots of rain. Water still standing in our yard. But–that’s a good thing..!!!!

  127. On a personal note…I DO do so enjoy this blog! As I’ve mentioned before, I sometimes sit at work and read it [I'm allowed!] and giggle and guffaw! With the exception of a few knuckle headed idiots,who shall remain nameless…but know who you are…this is the place to be for good info and intelligent discussion. Knuckle heads and all.

  128. HA HA getting rain right now, spitting with dust, yanno, the kind that ruins your car wash.

    Soozie

    I lived close to the border too, took perhaps the same cruise, we went San Diego but there is also I think the LB to Catalina to Ensanada cruise.

    Quite nice and affordable for a quick getaway.

    Ive been all over west coast mexico, and Ive driven the Crick plenty enough to see the similarities.

    I mean when you frame up a building, slap up pressboard and paint THAT for your exterior, yer getting third world.

    Why the county allows such crappy conditions to exist I dont know, but the lawless nature of the towns stands out like a sore thumb, its the ugliest junked up god forbidden crappy ass place right next to beautiful mountains.

    It looks like a duck with diarrhea flew over.

  129. Soozie

    Yeah we need the tin foil hatters for comic relief! The head hatter got chased away tho – his Huge Ego got the best of him!

  130. Why the county allows such crappy conditions to exist I dont know, but the lawless nature of the towns stands out like a sore thumb, its the ugliest junked up god forbidden crappy ass place right next to beautiful mountains.

    =========================
    It’s all Bruce Wisan’s fault, you know.

  131. And Dan’s too. How could I forget him. I think Flora is also responsible somehow for the condition. One way or another, they are the ones responsible for these corrugated fences.

  132. Cement, that’s funny….But, I’m sure someone believes it.
    It’s Flora’s fault? It’s Wisan’s fault? How about…it Warren’s fault. He [and his chronies] ran the place. They sucked out all the money,[maybe for that perty bed!] took the wages from the working folks,abandoned the people, left them to rot, tithed them to within an inch of their lives…and still expect them to pay, and it’s someone elses fault? Maybe if they’d sunk a little fixit $$ into the place,it might not look like it does.

  133. Maybe the crick needs one of those ‘We’ll fix your house” TV shows to wander into town. Then again, they might be so shocked at what they see, thye’ll keep driving!

  134. Actually, that propaganda was published at “Truth Will Prevail.” Bruce Wisan was blamed for the economic decline.

  135. Cement- Whew, that’s good to know. For a second I thought you”d bought a first class ticket on the crazy train!

  136. I like you folks a whole lot. :)

  137. It’s nice to have been missed — I missed you folks (most of you) too. We were essentially homeless the past 9 days. We had to move out of our old home, as they are planning to sell it, but the closing of our new home didn’t go through when it was supposed to. I’ve been living in a tent in my daughter’s back yard with our three dogs (she isn’t allowed to have animals in the house) and my son, daughter in law, and grandchildren were camping out in the house. We are in our new home now, though, and trying to unpack and find various important items (like power cords for computers). :D

    I’m catching up on the blogs right now. It was rather amusing when Duane claims that Warren couldn’t have meant for the bed to be for sex because Warren didn’t say that it was, and then claim that it was for meditations or visions or whatnot, even though Warren didn’t say that either. Yeah, I can see it being some sort of holy resting place for him to dream his big dreams or whatever he calls his fantasy conversations with his “God”, but I can just as easily see it as some holy bed where he is supposed to conceive the new messiah on some pure, young “vessel”. I’m guessing we’ll never really know for sure. One thing that bed prove, however, is that Warren was several key cards short of a full deck.

  138. Well Rebeckah, I for one really missed you! Glad you are back, have a bed to sleep in and are with your wonderful grandson!

  139. Man, I sure hope that at least some of the recordings that were confiscated with Warren in the Red Escalade, are released in the upcoming trials. They will put to rest finally any question what that “temple” bed was for. I am pretty sure than when Warren finally goes to trial for the rape of little Merrianne Jessop they will be introduced as evidence, because there is video evidence, proof on electronic recording, of Warren raping that poor little girl. But for now I guess we will just have to imagine the screaming and crying of that poor little baby, 12 year old, Merrianne being rape by a stinky, dirty, skinny, extremely ugly 52 year old Warren forcing himself on that poor little baby as she cries and begs him to not hurt her.

    Just remember the tape of that same poor little baby Merrianne, when CPS was removing her from her mothers SUV, remember her historics then? Now can you imagine the screaming and crying she did when an ugly, stinky, skinny, OLD man is raping her? And that narcissistic OLD man filmed it all!

  140. I hope there is some way for the counties, Washington in UT and Mojave in AZ, to disincorporate Hildale, UT and Colorado City, AZ.
    It is evident that the flds are unwilling or incapable of providing LE and other municipal services in an evenhanded way. At least the flds are getting out of the power business and an outside firm, GarKane will take over that. The flds municipal power plant turned out to be somewhat of a debacle.

  141. Cement

    A couple observations. I’d heard that the reason for the “unfinished” homes was that they used to skip on having to pay taxes until they got a final inspection, but after so many never got the final, they said “if you occupy the home then you pay taxes”

    So while the momentum of that still takes place, the roots go back not only before Warren but before Rulon.

    The OTHER problem is financing, as since nobody owns the land themselves, they cant get a construction loan, so everything is built out of pocket and with FLDS free labor.

    A drive through the town shows some funny things.

    And talk about a failed municipality.

    Ephriam bank sits empty, a symbol of embezzelment.

    The power company fiasco is another example of failed caretaking as appears the water is.

    The police force? Well the only thing that I can compare it to in Americana is the “Dukes of Hazard” Boss Hogg. And that is fiction.

    Oh, and the large FLDS church – as I understand it, still sitting abandoned and unmaintained as ordered by Warren.

    As is the public High School property – abandoned and empty as ordered by Warren.

    Mark Twains restaurant still open?

    One gets the point eventually. I guess Warren is responsible for some of it – the empty church, and school…. And he didnt do much for the community when you look at the balance sheet.

    As I understand it he was from SLC and moved down with Dad, so he wasnt really known personally that well or ever embraced by most of the locals.

    A duck out of water perhaps?

    I think thats why he wanted to take his cream and move. In fact I’m not sure Rulon was comfortable there either, his little “compound” surrounded by the tall brick fence and vehicle door gates is pretty funny.

    It looks like he built a fort to protect himself from the locals.

  142. Anon

    Yes, isnt it odd, poor MJ. First the guy who raped her taped it for his sick use, then her own MOTHER taped her for her own sick use.

    Oh wait did her older brother tape it when he abused her too?

    What a wonderful happy childhood those cute little flds girls must endure!

    Flora’s fault!

  143. So this bed has five-inch oaken timbers but the faithful live in houses with painted OSB for siding… makes me wonder how well insulated those houses are against the extreme desert temperatures, what kind of windows they have, whether the wiring or plumbing is safe, etc.

    I may find the purpose foul and the aesthetic questionable, but there seem to have been no shortcuts in the construction of this bed/table.

    For some reason, the contrast reminds me of a favorite joke: why are 2X6s actually 1.5X5.5? The punchline is too filthy to publish but it has to do with guys. And measurement. And lying.

    Back to you, Warren.

  144. I was also just reading about Blachernae Palace in Constantinople. This was the main late Byzantine Imperial residence. It was built OUTSIDE the Walls of Constantinople and surrounded by its own walls, which were 12-15 meters high but actually weaker than the walls of the city proper.

    That leads me to think the Emperor was more afraid of his own subjects than of the Avars, Arabs, Rus’, Bulgars, Norman Crusaders, Venetians, Vikings, Turks, and every other army that came crashing against those fabled walls.

    And I suspect that’s the rule, rather than the exception, among dictators, whether or not they’re gussied up as kings or prophets. Very few are loved by their followers.

  145. Greets

    “Not quite a stud”? ha ha

    Anyway, last time I drove through there I went down some side streets. The HS had the best landscaping, but it was dead and dying.

    Many of the homes were uncompleted shells, like they were thrown up for the movie set of some horror flick.

    Now that said there are some decent homes out there – but with the dissapearing of 10 pct of the people, the town has really gone down hill.

    Tumbleweeds are 6 feet high and often the landscaping of choice.

  146. An older FLDS gentleman marries a younger lady and they are very much in love. However, no matter what the husband does sexually, the woman never achieves orgasm. Since a FLDS wife is entitled to sexual pleasure, they decide to ask the Prophet.

    The Prophet listens to their story, strokes his hair, and makes the following suggestion. “Hire a strapping young man. While the two of you are making love, have the young man wave a towel over you. That will help the wife fantasize and should bring on an orgasm.”

    They go home and follow the Prophet’s advice. They hire a handsome young man and he waves a towel over them as they make love. But it doesn’t help and she is still unsatisfied. Perplexed, they go back to the Prophet.

    “Okay”, says the Prophet, “let’s try it reversed. Have the young man make love to your wife and you wave the towel over them.”

    Once again, they follow the Prophet’s advice. The young man gets into bed with the wife and the husband waves the towel. The young man gets to work with great enthusiasm and the wife soon has an enormous, room-shaking, screaming orgasm.

    The husband smiles, looks at the young man and says to him triumphantly, “You see, THAT’S how you wave a towel!”

  147. Stamp,
    Actually the tall solid brick wall surrounding the Jeffs compound in Hildale did not exist until after Rulon died and Warren took over.

    The compound used to just have brick columns with wrought iron railings that you could see through.

    Warren had the wall filled in.

  148. OH, really? Paranoid was he? ha ha It kind of makes one feel sorry for those poor FLDS women and children. And some of the guys.

    Ross Chatwin is a hero. He stood up to Warren!

    Funny that, little ol’ Ross knew the score, other folks cant find the door!

  149. Oh yeah I remember

    Warren has a thing with brick walls.

  150. Need to put the bed photo on a billboard in Shortcreek.

    It should read……Warren slept here!

  151. Get your own Warren bed!

    New and improved with a Kia Engine for those fast getaways!

  152. All right guys – the thing I like about this blog is there is data to inform us and discuss. In this thread I see numerous references to a tape showing Warren having sex with a 12 year old “bride” that was confiscated from the red escalade. The comments go on to describe in some detail the events depicted in the video.

    Fact check please? Is there any public source or knowledge of the contents of the videos confiscated?

  153. Walled woman’s quarters are a common feature of large polygynist households the world over. They say it’s to protect the women. You know, the way you protect your jewelry by putting it in a safe.

  154. Anon

    Fact check? Its evidence and will come out at trial, presumably. Until the matter is resolved, its held in confidence.

    Even after the trial, I am sure, there will be no release of tapes or video I am sure, unlike Barbara’s release of MJ crying for the camera.

    In the meantime, the Escalade evidence will be saved for the jury.

  155. Betty

    The FLDS never in the past used walls. It took Warren to put his family behind a brick wall, and finding that too small, expanded to a large fenced and locked gate ranch in BFE Texas.

    I bet it pestered him when the aerial photos started showing up!

  156. Good point, Betty.

    One of my Chinese students was recently telling me about harem politics in ancient China. People hid their daughters when the Emperor visited, because he was likely to see their pretty faces and squirrel the girls away among his hundreds of women. A girl from a modest background was likely to never again attract the attention of the Emperor, which meant she was hidden in the back corridors of the harem in a vulnerable, childless, disconnected life.

    A peasant girl who was taken as the concubine of a rich man was no better off after his death than if she was the widow of a peasant, and her children had her low social status and inherited nothing. Only the mother of the man’s first son had rights. This is the underbelly of Confucian filial piety, a pecking order that goes: father, son, mother, daughter, and why it was so important for a woman’s son to end up as the next emperor.

    In practice, an Emperor’s first son by his first wife was likely to succeed to the throne. In fact, it was the Emperor’s oldest living son who was entitled. His mother became the Empress Dowager (an incorrect translation, but I don’t know Chinese). The fortunes of the mothers were completely wrapped up in their sons, leading inevitably to harem intrigue and violence.

    See the life of Han Empress Dowager Lü Zhi, for example. She was Emperor Gao’s first wife, having married him when he was plain old bandit Liu Bang. Lü Zhi has been criticized for being power-mad, but she was just practicing the power politics of her time, which meant the torture and murder of all potential rivals to her son… and their concubine mothers.

  157. Greets, and Betty too

    Those anecdotes are good reasons for polygamy to stay illegal. I still havent heard a happy story – not one that I believed.

  158. Maybe we should start calling Barbara Jessop Dowager Empress. I think running your competition off into a mental institution counts.

    When you get into the range of 10 or so wives to one man, you are now guaranteeing that the women’s needs for sex, attention, physical contact and affection are going to go unfulfilled for the majority of her life. You also gaurantee that the children are competing for resources on the basis of their mother’s attractiveness, status or submissiveness.

    The rejected wives might as well be nuns. She has no other moral alternative in her culture to celibacy and lonliness and often has no other financial or practical options. In some countries, there is no legal alternative.

    Duane’s insistence that buying and selling young girls happens in other cultures because of poverty is a silly lie. If a family sells their 12 year old daughter as a sex toy and uses the money to keep their 13 year old son in school, then they are insuring that at 35 the son will have options and the daughter will not. Or worse, her older husband might die, leaving her and her children on the street with no education or skills, hoping some male relative will take her in and try to arrange another sale/marriage of used goods. The practice continues the cycle of poverty, and it wastes the resources of the woman’s mind and energy which could be used to generate wealth in the culture in general. Lack of preventative birth control puts a burden on not just the wives and children without adequate support, but on the society as a whole.

    Even the Islamic requirement that the man be able to afford an additional wife is unrealistic. Who among us can predict what our financial status will be in five or ten years?

  159. Polygamy is the best system ever invented for keeping womern and children impoverished and women subjugated. The only reasons the flds women accept is that they believe in the religious fairy tale and they have heard of no other options.

  160. The same seems to be true of Islamic women. I have read several blogs of women in the US whose husbands came home with a new wife without their prior consent and often without advance notice. The Islamic women then said “What can I do? It’s his right. I’ll have to live with it.” I want to say “You could divorce the some beach. It’s America. Pack your bags, grab the babies and walk.”

    That’s why the polyamory folks don’t concern me. 1) consentual adults, 2) no pre-established rules that one gender is singular and the other plural and 3) often involves bisexuals who upset the assumption that one party in the marriage is getting more love/attention/money/sex than another and 4) an extreme breeding program is rarely the point of it all.

  161. I want to say “You could divorce the some beach. It’s America. Pack your bags, grab the babies and walk.”
    =======================================================
    Or if you are happy then you could do none of the above.

  162. Gives a whole new meaning to “ignorant bliss”. Now, I am NOT calling all the women ignorant, in that they are stupid [tho maybe some are] but that they are ignorant to the choices and opportunities available. Many, I am sure, just look at it as being ‘loved’ and cared for…bliss.

  163. That last word is …bliss…

  164. “Or if you are happy then you could do none of the above.”

    Right. Obviously a woman who says “What can I do? It’s his right.” is happy. The willful idiocy begins anew. Or did it never end?

  165. Alinusara “Or if you are happy then you could do none of the above.”

    It’s one thing to say that consenting adults can do what they want. But what I was describing is a case where the wife is not even asked for consent. I don’t think there is a person on the planet who would be happy having less control over who they share their sexual partner with than they do over picking their hair dresser or personal physician.

    Are you being intentionally idiotic or does it come naturally?

  166. In reading an interview with a former Flds woman, she made some comments I thought were interesting. 1. After a son has recieved his Aaronic Priesthood, the mother no longer has the right to tell the son what to do. She refers him to his father.
    If she tells him something he has to do, he can rebuke her for trying to “boss” him around. 2. All women in Flds are “under” the Prophet first, their husband second. That includes, mothers, sisters, brothers. 3. That means when a son has recieved priesthood, he can rule over his sisters, just like the father or prophet rules over the adult women and children.
    4. A woman’s worth in Flds is nil. She is subservent her whole life or as long as she stay in Flds. 5. Regardless what Flds tell others, they know at least 50% or more of the homes, children or women are being abused in some way, either physically, sexually or emotionally.

  167. An it’s not just that one interview. You read it over and over and over again in the books written by the women who have escaped/left polygamous communities. I’ve read alot of the books, it’s a fascinating subject. I guess being brought up by a strong mother who taught me not to take %$#@ from anyone, it’s hard for me to see these women give up their souls. And then pass on that belief to their daughters. Kinda ironic…giving up their souls..to get to heaven.

  168. Reminds me of the description of a young teen boy punching his mother in the stomach and then making a sign of ‘zipping’ the mouth closed, during the investigation at the ranch. It shocked the nonFLDS. The mother did as she was told. I always wonder with all the cops there why he wasn’t arrested right then and there.

  169. I think there is a lot of variation between groups and over time in the degree to which this is true (boys ruling over their mothers and sisters). I don’t hear much of that in the book by Irene Spencer or her sister wife (whose name escapes me) from the LeBaron group. But in that group at that time, the woman had full rights to consent to a marriage or not. However, once she was a wife, her husband ruled her and did not get consent from his wives to take another wife.

  170. My first guess is, no victim no crime. If mom wont press charges, then it never happened. Thats how it was in Calif for MANY years until the DV laws took over. But,I am sure someone with much more legal knowledge can answer better.

  171. Betty, the LeBaron group is what got me started reading about polygamy groups. They were a very violent group…at the end. Another group ruined by a maniac who thought he was God.

  172. Yes. I like the book “Favorite Wife” because it shows the group dynamics of how they changed.

  173. You may be right, Soozie. But, it is a state by state thing.

  174. I wish Judith were around because she knows far more about this than I do, but isn’t an Islamic husband supposed to get the consent of his wife in order to take another wife?

  175. Brtty

    As I recall the LeBaron murder and crime crap spresd through Utah, Arizona, CA, TX, CO and various states in Mexico.

    And yet they were but a fraction of what the FLDS are in size.

  176. I am no expert, Greetings, but my thinking (based on hazy memories of what little research I’ve done on the subject) is that the women have no say in whether or not their husband marries another woman but that he is supposed to be able to provide for them all equally in love, time, and finances. Of course that’s not at all helpful for the women, since half of poverty isn’t an improvement over poverty.

  177. Atilla the Nun

    HA HA HA

    Wonder if she still uses that handle on Bills site?

  178. By the way, Greetings, the earlier post responding to yours was by me. For some reason my sign in got lost between one post and the next.

  179. GFNY,

    I think that grouping all Islamic people under one set of rules is as silly as grouping Catholics, Mormons and Baptists in the same set of rules. I certainly have read of those who did not. But then, I know Baptists who think they shouldn’t drink but do.

  180. Betty, I believe Judith once sent me a blog link that made three points:

    1. That he must be capable of supporting all wives equally (an argument you effectively demolished above);
    2. That the requirement to obey the laws of the US trumps any desire to practice polygamy;
    3. That the first wife’s consent is required, even if she isn’t here.

    But having spent some time scanning the internet, I see that opinion is divided on this subject. Iran, Libya and Yemen (and probably elsewhere) make the written consent of the first wife a legal requirement. Even that is a sliding requirement, however, since consent is only truly voluntary to the degree to which women have civil and economic rights.

    Once again, polygamy is incompatible with modern democracies which ensure civil rights for women.

  181. An aside: Catholics and Baptists do operate mainly under the same set of rules. The deviations we pick up on (“thou shalt not use wine for Communion”) are picayune compared to the vast number of things on which Catholics and Baptists agree.

    There is a distinction between the main body of Christianity and Mormonism in that Mormons follow a post-Biblical revelatory prophet, something Christianity as a rule doesn’t permit. My limited experience with Mormons (a sample of one: Chemist) makes me think they sincerely follow Jesus, but they don’t fit into the same box as Catholics, Baptists, etc.

  182. GFNY,

    Well, I think you are wrong, but I think you are talking about theology, not about daily practices. And I think you are also wrong to paint all Muslims as being more unified than Christians. Islam consists of more than 20% of the world population, over 1.5 billion people and ranges from Mali to Indonesia to Los Angeles. To think that they all have the same views on things like women’s rights, birth control, education, etc. is absurd.

    To believe that they all are the same is to ignore 1400 years of history of them killing each other with almost the same ferocity that they hold against Christians and Jews. They have liberals, Fundies, those who study nothing much other than reading Arabic and holy writings, those who study at Universities, those who think women need not cover their hair in public any more than the men must stick to certain colors of clothing or wear skullcaps or turbans and those who think women should be beaten in the streets or fined if they wear trousers.

    I am drawing a distinction between the official dogma and policy of any large religion, for instance the organization of the Catholic Church, and the beliefs and daily practices of actual believers. My point was/is this; just as many Baptists believe that drinking or playing cards is sinful but they drink at their weekly po ker games, what Moslems believe and what they actually do varies. There are historical religious leaders and writers of the Islamic faith who died as alcoholics, even though Mohamed doesn’t like the vino. And their are young Catholic couples who go to Church every week and quietly go home and use birth control. So what happens in the world of theology and law and what happens in the actual culture is something else again. No where in Islam is genital mutilation even discussed, and yet almost everyone who still practices that is a Muslim. Some Islamic groups live more according to the most recent statements of their teachers, picking and choosing the quotes from the Bible and the Koran and the body of teachings from the past to suit themselves, ignoring others, just as does Warren Jeffs. There is a group of Muslims in Toronto who are fighting against legalization of polygyny because they believe it is an outmoded expression of barbarism and violates women’s civil rights and it is not central to their religion. They came to North America to escape poverty and repression and do not want to bring it here. Another level of Muslim believes that you should only practice it under very narrow requirements; that it should be a response to a particular problem and not an open license for men to indulge themselves as much as they can afford. And so on.

    It may be possible for such a small group as the FLDS to exert near total control on their followers, but it’s not going to work for 1/4 of the human population.

  183. I’m very curious about the “video in the red Escalade” rumors. Does anyone have any sort of news report that mentions videos? Seems that I’ve seen some pretty exhaustive lists of what was in the car with Warren and never have seen that mentioned.

    So, anyone able to source that?

  184. FLDS – Gods gift to Attorneys?

    How many lawsuits / Trials / Appeals can you count?

    ——————–

    Preston Barlow Suit

    Allan Steed Trial

    Warren Jeffs MJ Appeal

    Twin Cities Berry Knoll Suit

    Lyle Jeffs Berry Knoll Appeal

    Elissa Walls Suit

    FLDS Federal Appeal

    Warren Jeffs AZ Trial

    Warren Jeffs Federal Fugitive Escape Trial

    ————-

    Geez thats off the top of my head as active – but still to be resolved is Harker Farms, UEP and Wisans and his Attorneys fees, which obviously are going to grow with the failure of the FLDS to Repent and settle with something that is down to earth.

    Oh wait there are 12 men facing something like 18 Indictments in Texas.

    Thats what, about “30” current or pending trials, appeals and suits?

    Oh dont forget, those 18 Texas indictments and other convictions may well turn into appeals too, along with some others that pop up, so within the next 3 years we are looking at some 50 “FIFTY” court dances.

    Gods gift to Attorneys indeed. Who knew the FLDS were sent by God to ensure Attorneys kids get the finest education?

    At least someone is going to be hitting the books.

  185. It’s one thing to say that consenting adults can do what they want. But what I was describing is a case where the wife is not even asked for consent.
    =================================================
    See Betty this is where I agree with you. If the wife is not asked for consent and she doesn’t like it then she is more then free to take your suggestion and leave the guy.

  186. I always wonder with all the cops there why he wasn’t arrested right then and there.
    ============================================================
    If this is true I wonder myself. If this is not true then he wasn’t arrested because someone made up a story.

  187. “See Betty this is where I agree with you. If the wife is not asked for consent and she doesn’t like it then she is more then free to take your suggestion and leave the guy.”

    And then she should sue the pants off of him for the pain and anguish his selfish butt just put her through. I think that as soon as these first wives have the right to recompense for the time and effort they’ve put into a marriage that the man has just willfully thrown away there might be fewer men willing to risk breaking the heart of their loving wife. Of course, I could be wrong.

  188. “If this is true I wonder myself. If this is not true then he wasn’t arrested because someone made up a story.”

    Ya’ think?!?

    (Captain Obvious strikes…)

  189. Ron

    I havent found a good inventory list, but I do recall hearing about audio recordings and DVDS as well as the computers.

    He need only download them onto a computer and hook up the headphones.

    So the media IMHO is there, just the extent of how bad it is which isnt released. Someone mentioned there was audio / video of the rape of the “red haired girl”, its obvious if it was true this wont be a public knowledge fact until trial.

    Its really a moot point though, like the Temple bed, IMO, as they will rely on DNA.

    However if they play rape tapes to a jury you can imagine the outrage.

    He’s toast, we just dont know if he is ash.

  190. I wonder about the claims of tapes of the rape of a girl too. First of all, I doubt crying and carrying on by the girl is something Warren really wants. I think it is important to his ego and feelings of importance that they worship him even as he assaults them. Secondly, I think that it is highly unlikely that the FLDS, with their obsession for privacy, would tape the act of sex. Now I could be wrong — Warren is a nut and nuts don’t act logically — but I just find the claims of those tapes to be unbelievable. jmho

  191. This is another place where polygamist unions fail.

    Chances are there will be jealousies, and one woman will want to leave at some point. With property rights, does the plig daddy come up with 200K to pay her the share she deserves?

    Or do the plyg supporters still consider legal polygamy to consider women as chattel, owning nothing but the clothes on their back, not even their own children?

    “Ya wanna leave, LEAVE! The bus station is two miles that-a-way!”

    This would require a re-write of marriage law affecting women statewide.

    I wonder how Utah women will like it knowing they will be relegated back to a day they were one click above slave status.

  192. Ron go check out this inventory list and these photos

    http://www.thehopeorg.org/091607_jeffsfbi.pdf

    http://www.thehopeorg.org/Catch_stash_photo_gallery.html

  193. “See Betty this is where I agree with you. If the wife is not asked for consent and she doesn’t like it then she is more then free to take your suggestion and leave the guy.”

    The problem is Alin, that he should not be able to change the very basis of their contract from exclusive to not exclusive without penalties. It is breach of contract pure and simple, whether fraud is involved or not.

    I think every man who does this should be dragged into court by the wife for bigamy and or cleaned out in divorce court. In the US, at this time, ALL legal marriage contracts are exclusive and so he is violating their original contract big time. This is much more serious than a single affair, because the man is putting this other woman AND her future progeny on the same financial, legal and social footing with his first wife AND extending to her an equal share of the current assets that the two of them acquired together. In all of the cases online that I have read, the man and the first wife both work. So there is no way you can say that he is not stealing from her to now start supporting another wife without her consent. She should sue him into the dark ages and make him support that new “wife” on whatever the court leaves him, not just whimper and walk away, leaving the new wife to enjoy the equity and furnishings the first wife helped to accumulate.

  194. I agree claims of the tape are not believable unless sourced

  195. Ron, It will emerge later on down the road. You may know or be in contact with people who would be willing to talk to you about it in private, but no one is going to own up to it here.

  196. The link just provided lists lots of computer equipment etc but no “tape of the rape” – I think that it is logical to believe there is a huge stash of information on the computers but nothing to suggest to the public (FBI may know) the rumored tape.

  197. Stamp,

    I have read some polygamist opinions that they want the Supreme Court to decriminalize it but believe that legalizing and regulating it would be the worst thing that could happen to them. In my opinion, this is Fairy Tale thinking. About a week after it is decriminalized, there will be law suits where one member of a family sues another and the courts will have to rule on them.

    In truth, any woman who has children by a polygamist man has legal rights as we speak. In most states, cohabitation and contributing to mutual financial support is grounds for a distribution of shared wealth already. Legal marriage just strengthens the argument and opens the flood gates on employer insurance coverage, Social Security distributions, etc.

  198. On the lawsuits:
    The FLDS learned from 1953 that children/women may a great PR defense
    They further learned from the splits and lawsuits of 1980s that the legal system can be manipulated to their favor
    They learned (as you can read in Williams book on his fight for custody) that a deliberate strategy of piling on lawsuits that lead to bankruptcy which then can be used as evidence to deny custody usually works.
    They also learned that if you sue, sue, and sue eventually people will get tired and quit – Surtleff now being the next proof of this strategy of tiring out the opposition.

    The latest civil lawsuit over violation of civil rights is an example of following the past strategies. Keep on escalating before bending and eventually, they have learned, you don’t have to bend.

    Be interesting to see if they are right again.

    Hope not

  199. Probably the first law suit after decriminalization would be one son suing the other son over inheritance of a house or business.

  200. hhg,

    Why don’t THEY go bankrupt? Where does the infinite money come from. This is one reason I think the Feds need to FOLLOW THE MONEY.

  201. It’s confidential information that should never have been discussed here. In fact, let’s stop discussing it.

    How about all that rain down South? It sure is pretty here in Virginia. Not too hot, not too cold.

  202. “Ya wanna leave, LEAVE! The bus station is two miles that-a-way!”

    This would require a re-write of marriage law affecting women statewide.
    =========================================================
    Really? The same is also true of monogamous marriages where one or both of the partners are unhappy. I see no change from what already exists.

  203. “I see no change from what already exists.”

    Then read my post about breach of contract.

  204. She should sue him into the dark ages and make him support that new “wife” on whatever the court leaves him, not just whimper and walk away, leaving the new wife to enjoy the equity and furnishings the first wife helped to accumulate.
    =========================================================
    See Betty I’m all for giving women choices not taking them away. If she wants to sue the pants off her husband then sure she should go for it. If instead she is happy having a second wife, perhaps one who shares household expenses by working, or perhaps one who shares household chores like cooking or looking after the children then I applaud her right to make that choice.

  205. Probably the first law suit after decriminalization would be one son suing the other son over inheritance of a house or business.

    ================================================
    Happens all the time already when the parents don’t file a proper will.

  206. ” If instead she is happy having a second wife, perhaps one who shares household expenses by working, or perhaps one who shares household chores like cooking or looking after the children then I applaud her right to make that choice.”

    I have yet to read of or talk to a woman who was actually happy about it in reality. Most who put up with it do so for religious reasons. Some THINK they are going to like it and then don’t when it actually happens.

    In short, IMHO this woman who is happy that her husband came home unannounced and without prior consent with a new bride is MYTHICAL.

  207. “Happens all the time already when the parents don’t file a proper will.”

    The only problem with this theory is that there are thousands of years of law traditions, and hundreds here in the US to handle the inheritance issues of monogamist families. There is ZERO to handle polygamist families. The upshot is probably that they would be forced to sell everything and give each natural child a 1/53 (or whatever) of the assets. Another approach is to declare the first wife to have the same status as a monogamist wife and the others to have nothing but child support rights.

    The current SS laws that say a wife of 10 years gets the man’s SS payments AND it does not diminish his would get totally blown away by legal polygamy. And I am laughing if you think standard employee insurance company is going to accept a single employee with 54 dependents.

  208. For instance:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/world/africa/24safrica.html?_r=1

  209. http://polygamy411.com/2009/09/is-polygamy-in-islam-an-obstacle-for-men/

    From this web page, I had to smile:

    “But, truly, I would like to know how many men are practicing polygamy to seek the good pleasure of Allah SWT and how many men are practicing polygamy merely to seek their own good pleasure.”

  210. Ron go check out this inventory list and these photos

    http://www.thehopeorg.org/091607_jeffsfbi.pdf

    http://www.thehopeorg.org/Catch_stash_photo_gallery.html

    ===============================
    It’s entirely likely the radios you see in the first and 11’th photo are ones I was involved in setting up audio scrambling so that eavesdropping would be difficult.

  211. “Religious material.”

  212. Ali

    ““Ya wanna leave, LEAVE! The bus station is two miles that-a-way!”

    This would require a re-write of marriage law affecting women statewide.
    ==========================

    > Really? The same is also true of monogamous marriages where one or both of the partners are unhappy. I see no change from what already exists.”

    =============================================

    Polygamy exists in Utah with the women forced by all involved, that the women own zip, not even a car. To escape the bondage even with ones children, much less support, has been extremely rare.

    Walk us through a polygamist divorce that was fair – find me one, it must exist, what, with 35,000 polygamists bouncing around the state.

  213. cement

    And “16” computer disks – hmmmm how come they dont list whats on them?

    The devils in the details!

  214. Evidently Salt Lake City Utah didn’t release what was on the computers.. It won’t be that way in Texas, if FBI found anything on the computers taken as evidence from YFZ.

  215. DD

    The good thing about this set of evidence is that it is rock solid. As I understand it relevant evidence isnt nec notated to the public although it needs to be shared with the defense.

    And of course child porn, while the existence of it may eventually be disclosed after the trials, the content itself never will be.

  216. This photos is going to make Warrens head explode.

    He has been in jail since its been exposed, and I have a funny feeling none of his sheeple have the guts to tell him whats really out there.

    Guess he is in for more surprises!

    Party time Warren

    I’ll fly if you buy!

  217. Stamp, you’re so right. His head probably will explode. Although he has to know about it already, the prosecution is not allowed any surprises.

  218. I’m not sure he is keeping up with the work of looking at trial documents.

    I get the feeling he is playing this day to day, and will react accordingly.

    The attorneys who indeed reviewed the evidence and tried to discuss it with him were shooed away for their ignorance of what a great cough cough cough man he thinks he is.

  219. Oh wow, stamp, if he hasn’t seen this photo, they’ll have to hospitalize him.

  220. The security better be on alert.

  221. I’d be interested in hearing what duane has to say now that we know for sure what this bed was used for.

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