General Discussion #82 – Repo YFZ and UEP from WSJ

holmContinued from General Discussion #81

Spring 2013 brings new drama of the YFZ and UEP being wrested from control of the FLDS in general and Warren Jeffs in particular.

While the YFZ  repo action by the State of Texas was a bit of a surprise, and its action looks to clear most if not all of the FLDS from the State (save assorted prisoners and their various visitors).

The UEP action has been simmering for years but has finally came to the end of its road as a tool used by Warren  to bat people around with.


~ by FLDS TEXAS on March 2, 2013.

358 Responses to “General Discussion #82 – Repo YFZ and UEP from WSJ”

  1. Unless the flds appeal to the US Supreme Court the UEP trust is out of their hands. I am not up to date on the filing of Texas to take over the YFZ compound or of any flds appeals to that filing. There have been reports that the flds are adbandoning the YFZ property so they might not fight hard to keep it.

  2. So far they aren’t fighting at all to keep the YFZ. The men in question are hiding from being served.

    According to those up in Pringle, Ben Edward Johnson isn’t at the compound up there anymore. He was always their contact and he isn’t around any more. An interesting point about Ben E. is that he is the son-in-law of Winston Blackmore. The daughter he is married to might be Winston’s last tie to the Warrenites. Not totally sure about that as the wives who went with Warren when the split came could have had children.


  4. The State should pay for foster care…. They helped create this mess and keep it rolling, they should shoulder the cost.


  5. wow Stamp, never thought of it as part of the states fault. Warren and their families kicked them out without anything. Not sure how the state is complicit – how do you see it?

  6. Any child abandoned by his/her parents would be a candidate for being taken into protective custody and placed in foster care. In some states I think the state charges the parents for the care if the parents have the ability to pay. I don’t know about Utah or Arizona. But yes, an abandoned child should be placed in foster care and the state should pay the foster parents. That should be a given. No one should have to recruit unpaid volunteers to take care of abandoned children. That would not happen with non-FLDS children and shouldn’t happen with the FLDS.

    Once they place the child in foster care and take care of the child’s needs they should prosecute the parents for child abandonment/child abuse.

  7. I hope some of the kids take advantage of the offer. Getting them caught up on real life, school and just living outside a cult, must be a daunting thing. It may be the first positive attention some have had.

  8. I hope they do too MC. It could make the transition to real life so much easier for them.

    As for the state paying, if they are under 18 then financing could be pursued under a CPS type situation. CPS foster parents are compensated in Texas. I agree that the parents should be questioned about abandoning their children. As for the children who leave voluntarily, this sounds like an excellent situation for them also.

  9. watergirl

    As I see it, and this part is not in dispute, is that the States of both AZ and UT have allowed these known criminals to fester – yeah even encouraged it you might say, with various welfare benefits and hands off law enforcement of known crimes over the years.

    The States certainly cant claim that they were blindsided with Polygamy math… well maybe they can but this comes as no surprise to lay people.

    In the end its costing these States the ultimate price, RESPECT…. Cant say that about Texas though.

  10. Perhaps more of the UEP should be sold off and the money put in a trust to pay for all the assorted costs associated with this particular cult.

    Then yeah the “parents” and the church pay for their own way.

    What a concept!

  11. Stamp, I really like that idea. They could set up some funds to help take care of those who get kicked out while they get their education and get a job. For minors, well, those children should go into foster care, but maybe there are people in the community who are no longer FLDS who could help ease their transition.

    One thing that needs to happen with the trust, IMO, is that they need to help people who are not FLDS to be able to buy property and open businesses there, so that there would be more non-FLDS in the community. That would help open up the community a lot, and make secrets harder to keep.

  12. Here is the SLTrib’s article on today’s hearing on the trust:

  13. “In addition, the document says that Wisan’s office will not seek more than the $5.69 million he is already owed, will not seek interest on the unpaid debt, and that the state will hold a lien on UEP property. The lien is designed to ensure that the state eventually gets its money back”.

    Although I am sure they have done a ton of work on this case. I am having a really hard time with the 5.69 million dollar fee the fiduciary accountant says they owe for managing this trust.

    5.69 million? Really? If I were the state I’d want to see detailed documentation as to where that came from. I’d also be looking real hard for padding the bill. It almost seems like when a hospital charges $9.00 for Heart patients single aspirin pill and then adding $35.00 for the nurse to hand them the cup of water to take it with.

  14. A lot of that money goes to lawyers who have had to defend the various lawsuits brought by the FLDS after they decided to stop “answering them nothing”.

  15. I’m sure Wisan has had to account for allll the $$$$. The payment wasn’t just awarded on a whim. The bill wouldn’t be what it is if FLDS had just abided by the law. But, as we all know…..

  16. Exactly what Proud Texan and MC state. The FLDS for years sued the trust administrator, all the while knowing that they would have to pay both sides.

    Did they think some magical godfather would swoop down and relieve them of their debts and responsibilities?

    Their fairy godfather or Pffffft or whatever they want to call him is holed up for life in a Texas prison spanking his donkey, as I have heard said.

    And yes the bill has been accounted for… multiple times.

    Perhaps they should charge interest if they dont get paid in a timely manner.

  17. Oops!

    Birth Date: 07/29/66
    Address : 1425 NORTH CANYON ST, HILDALE, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    08:45:00 03/04/13 Thompson, Aaron WCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-12A-303.2 NO PROOF OF INSURANCE BM WCJ7 400.00 400.00
    41-6A-1635 OBSTRUCTED WINDOW CM WCJ7 40.00 40.00
    41-6A-1633 MUDFLAP VIOLATION CM WCJ7 40.00 40.00
    76-8-301.5 FAIL TO DISCLOSE IDEN BM WCJ7 587.00 587.00
    41-6A-1635(1) WINDOW TINT VIOLATION CM WCJ7 50.00 50.00
    53-3-202(1) DRIVER LIC- NEVER OBT CM WCJ7 185.00 185.00

  18. That’s Mr. Sexual Abuser.

  19. Never obtained one of those pesky driver’s licenses and then lied about who he was?

    Good grief, that ahole should still be in prison anyway. Well, thats Utah for ya, Catch and Release program for plygs.

  20. While Utah let scammer Jeremy Johnson off the hook, the Feds have handed him a pile of fresh indictments and that includes a handful of his friends who are getting dragged in kicking and screaming.

    Recall that this group siphoned off about 350 million from unsuspecting Americans, so I dont have any pity.

    Swallow is mentioned again but a different Fed agency is currently investigating him, so no indictment for him just yet.


    Merril Jessop’s Appeal has been dismissed for want of prosecution.

  22. Ha ha makes me giggle like a school girl. Rod was very anal about tint and mudflaps when he was a cop.

  23. Who’s got the make / model / or tag number of the Honorable Mr. Holm’s vehicle? I’m getting a hunch.

  24. Both the Eldorado Success and SLTrib have articles on subject of FLDS members forced to live on water & bean diet. Article asks about effects on children.

    The Trib article:

    To read Eldorado Success article on must buy a copy or pay to download article.

  25. Here’s more from youtube on subject of FLDS diet.

  26. Are you wondering about a white pickup 3C?

  27. Leave em alone KD. A bean fast wont kill you but it will help you remember
    whats important. The mothers who go along with any directive outside of their loving intent will be visited personally with the consequences. Any intervention will only strengthen resolve and prolong the process. They have willingly thrown their children under the bus for years. Take a look at the bright side…. Your on Facebook right? Take a look at the hundreds
    of people who are appearing and proclaiming their freedom. Look at the fact that the few remaining lunkheads aren’t in the majority there anymore. The day is near… Give up your harping judgmental need for satisfaction and get in your car and go door to door with Subway and KFC and loom
    over every child as they eat. Or hush up and go back to your boring life.

  28. It would be good to see any kids found by CPS who are subjected to such an assinine diet to be taken and placed with a family who can give them nourishing food and a nourishing life…. not that dogma and drama queen crap that comes from Warren and his assorted assholes.

  29. I can only hope that more flds people will make the decision that warren is not a prophet. They can then leave all of his wackiness behind.

  30. Arizona approves a watered-down version of a bill targeting the Short Creek Marshall’s Office.

  31. Why, yes, PT.

  32. If young children get too little fat in diet over a prolonged period of time they develop problems grown people might almost never have in as serious a life-threatening way. Youngsters have to have some fats regularly for brain health and nerve development. There was a case several years ago with a super-strict vegan family living in New York but they were following extreme diet ideas and homeopathic-only suggestions from a guru of some kind in Montana. All four kids had severe seizures until the state put them in foster care where they could have dairy, which they liked and improved on rapidly… and meat if they wished. They had been allowed almost nothing except carrots and sprouts for a long time, were extremely underweight and functioning poorly, and neighbors or a teacher finally called social workers. One child died and another almost did. The parents were not uneducated, just misguided and extremely strict. As far as forcing youngsters to live on absolutely nothing except beans , supplements. and water, if it’s really true, I can’t believe there are not going to be growth and development problems cropping up, unless the kids are actually receiving something extra we aren’t hearing about, like peanut butter and a wide variety of legumes with a little vegetable oil and cheese or something, or yogurt. I wish we could get an explanation from someone why Warren ordered this, for how long and if it’s the full truth. We have heard of his fasts and ordering others to fast before. I noticed that Ruby Jessop looked well-fed shortly after she got out, but that Flora said Ruby’s kids were dehydrated when they arrived on the “outside.” Anyway, until these kids are located and examined, until law enforcement listens to believable complaints, I don’t see what can be done. The most “faithful” allowed their kids to be taken away in vehicles months ago. I certainly hope that everyone coming out who knows anything that might help the kids is giving anonymous info to authorities.

  33. Sometimes it seems Utah is willing to let this crazy experiment run to its bitter end.

    Wonder if the Feds will step in before it turns into another version of the Walking or Otherwise Dead.

  34. Since Utah acknowledges daylight savings and Arizona does not, how exactly does that work in Short Creek? Do they go with UT, AZ, or does Hildale and CC have an hour time difference for half the year?

  35. In Shartcrack, everything is dysfunctional….. even the time of day.

    And so it was meant to be as written in the Pearls of Poison.

  36. The whole town goes by Utah time when I was there. It’s because most of their business is in Utah.

  37. Flora Jessop talks about Ruby’s and her children’s experience:

  38. The SLTrib published an article today on the subject of the crimes of polygamist Brian David Mitchell. From article:

    “Mitchell claimed he was commanded by God to take Elizabeth and six other young girls as plural wives. He believed the LDS Church had lost its way and become wicked by abandoning polygamy and claimed he would guide the church back to the correct path.”

    Mitchell kinda sounds like Warren Jeffs with above statement IMO. Here we are ten years later after Mitchell’s arrest and stories of the horrors of polygamy continue to come out of Utah, as the story posted above by CaGal on subject of Ruby Jessop/Flora Jessop.

  39. Lack of nourishment isn’t the only thing damaging to a child’s development. Lack of sleep can destroy long term memory and proper neuron development.

  40. Oh so thats whats wrong with me lol

  41. Maybe you snuck a cheeseburger and your neurons finally kicked in?

  42. I posted a new post on my blog, if anyone’s interested in reading it:

  43. Brian David Mitchell reminds me quite a bit of Ross Wesley Lebaron Sr. He would travel to SLC with his wife Thelma and have her help him kidnap young teenagers to take as spiritual wives. There was even a couple of criminal trials over it.

  44. Breaking news, Willie is going to take Warren apart limb from limb in short creek by acquiring all his property!


  45. Whooping cough outbreak in Colorado City:

  46. Mom said this on 3-08:

    “The most “faithful” allowed their kids to be taken away in vehicles months ago. I certainly hope that everyone coming out who knows anything that might help the kids is giving anonymous info to authorities.”

    I think the parents should be charged with child endangerment. Anyone know if a LE agency is investigating this?

  47. The Ch. 2 article says this property is appraised at $2.6 Mil! I seriously doubt this Estate located in Pliggerville’s most exclusive district would go for anything near that amount on the open market.


  49. That Custer County News article isn’t very accurate about Suzette Steed. I think it is referring to this Declaration:

    That is in support of Lorin Holm’s attempt to get custody of his children. It’s not an attempt by Steed to get a restraining order against anyone.

    Is there anyone who knows whether Ruby Jessop’s statement that the children could only have beans and water is true?

  50. More on Willie’s attempt to collect. For those of you who know Willie, or who know a lot about him, I would be very interested in knowing whether you believe him when he says he didn’t know anything about Warren’s young “wives.”

  51. I don’t believe it. He had to have known when he went on that compound supposedly to help his sister and her children, if he didn’t know before.

    My guess is that Warren thought he took too much power when he became “spokesman” for them after the raid and when he felt his usefulness had ended and he was getting “too big for his britches” they exed him, thinking he would go repent from afar like the thousands of others before him. Man did Warren play that card wrong.

  52. More and more exes flds men are refusing to go repent from afar. They are staying in Short creek and fighting for their children, etc. That is a good thing

  53. I agree Chemist, it is a very good thing.

  54. Yup it is a good thing…. and what helps allow them to do it, Warren cant use the UEP as his personal whacking stick like he used to.

    IRT Willie, he claims he was disgusted at the tapes of child rapes by Warren and since his leaving or exing was about the time of its release I think that its quite probable that was the catalyst.

    Here he was the non stop defender of Warren and suddenly he was faced not only with the truth but on audio tape no less. He would be laughed off every stage. Note, no one has attempted to replace him for media any more. You just cant defend that behavior with a straight face.

    Then, they did the stupid maneuver of abusing him by ripping off his office…. well why not? They had gotten away with so much of this type of abuse in the past.

    They thought they could drive Willie out… Instead they gave him the keys to Warren’s mansions.

    Poetic justice in a way. Yeah, Willie was a bully enforcer.

    Just the person to kick sand in Warren’s and his posse’s face.

  55. Some years back I was involved in a lawsuit as the defendant. My defense attorney explained that even though it is expensive to defend and it is all out your pocket( no pot of cash if you win); you absolutely must defend yourself. Getting a default judgment against you is the worst thing you can do. Warren and the flds has proved that counsel to be correct. The answer them nothing defense strategy took the UEP out of their control and it may Warren’s compound out of their control.

  56. I recall the photo of “Wee Thug Willie J” riding in a truck or jeep (both of them laughing all the way,) with the little redhead Merrianne(?) daughter of Merrill Jessop(who became the littlest “star” of warren’s pray-me-a -river -of -weirdness-and crime tape)-and who some believe is the model for the little gal holding his hand in the statue sketch that surfaced….)

    Yeah, Wee Willie Winkie, he
    dint know NUFFIN… I’m sure he NEVER EVER suspected lil Merrianne and bunches of other nubile nymphies were being plucked for warren j’s chickie bbq’s. Wee Willie knew precisely how the cult works. He knew every gal who had some looks and a reasonably useful “IQ” would be fingered (oops-pun NOT intended) for the cult’s highest honor— which was “marriage” to you-know-who. Wee Willie has simply been continuing to do what he’s done best for so many years. Lookin out for numero uno. He figures spill enough beans for LE and they won’t throw his generous can right in the can with the other big daddies. Yet, anyhow.

  57. I think Willie knew everything and hoped to be the next in line to be the great messiah. Then, when the tape came out he got to pretend he didn’t know anything and start his new holier than thou life. It’s still all just smoke and mirrors!

  58. With Winston Blackmore’s tax trials and his list of 21… oops, 22… wives: I haven’t been able to find it online. Does anyone have it?
    Second question: Is there a list of Joe Knudson’s wives somewhere?

  59. Wee Willie has simply been continuing to do what he’s done best for so many years. Lookin out for numero uno. He figures spill enough beans for LE and they won’t throw his generous can right in the can with the other big daddies. Yet, anyhow.
    mom said this on March 22, 2013 at 5:23 PM

    I agree Mom – I think seeing so many head to jail and the “secret” documents read out in public is what freaked him out and caused his amnesia. I don’t think he ever thought those documents would be public knowledge and when they were he realized he was neck deep. He should have “Teflon” added to his thug name. So far nothing has stuck to him. – Teflon Willie the thug.

  60. I doubt seriously that anyone thought that Warren was having a set of 12 twelve year olds in a group orgy event. Or taking virgins strapped to a table with witnesses present. I know to our eyes the difference between giving away a 14 year old to her cousin and taking a bunch of 12 year olds for your self isn’t a big leap, but I really don’t think the open lasciviousness is part of their culture.

  61. Of interest, the FLDS spy camera system in “short creek”.

    Take a look at the inter active map, talk about paranoia.

  62. Is Willie Jessop going to be the next Ervil LeBaron?

  63. SLTrib reports that the Feds are holding on to Warren the felonious profit red caddy, appears that it’s evidence in planned federal case to try Warren Jeffs on charges of unlawful flight to avoid prosecution. And ole Willie the thug wants the caddy, but the feds won’t let him have it. Willie shouldn’t draw attention to himself, charges of aiding and abetting.

    Read to whole story:

  64. Okay, I found the old thread with Winston’s wives now. But still: What about Joe Knudson’s wives?

    @ Betty: It’s documented. But I get that it’s hard to grasp.

  65. Rod Parker re-files an old lawsuit:

  66. Funny thing about all those cameras in Warrenville, they are losing his properties soon as well as the UEP and assorted other deals, what do they hope to find, God smiling at them through the lens?

    I think not.

  67. Willie is still acting in behalf of Jeffs. The plan is to re-acquire properties at firesale prices. They are working diligently and as a team. Its rather impressive. Their enemy is the State and Fed. Their inside man JB. has effectively maintained his secrecy. Behind closed doors, the plan is to end up regaining control of the trust. They live every day praying for the seige to end. Quietly, they are reinforcing local business interests. You can tell where they are, by the horde of women and children planting flowers and preening selected Biz sites/properties. Its all about money now. They know they can win if they stick together as a team and funnel all dollars up through the system to be carefully placed where it’s most needed. They are working as a well oiled machine. The strategist ? Warren Jeffs. His brother Lyle is not intelligent enough to orchestrate these kinds of moves. JB and Willie are the keys to success. One is bold and thick and one is hidden. One is keeping all the books for the trust and one is wielding the legal system back on itself… brilliant Mr Jeffs. I know why people follow you.

  68. Anon – who is JB?

  69. wow, I new insight. And it makes sense. We should pay attention to this.

  70. If that were true it would indeed be brilliant, but I don’t see why men working “with” Jeffs would do this and then hand power back to him instead of finding a way to keep it for themselves. If they were to succeed, why would they give power to a creep who is going to spend the rest of his life in prison?

  71. Not true, evidence of their intelligence was demonstrated during Warren’s trial and his comments to the court and jury.

    Look at him now, he will never set foot on free soil again.

  72. What these men have failed to recognize is truth.

    They have supported a war. Mr Jeffs , the master manipulator, and those who vibrate with him have outrightly stated their supremacy to the world.

    Blinded by fear and apprehension, they have walled up their city. In the name of rightness, they have made vain preparations. Submitting members to acts that violate their contracts with family. Those who have fully submitted have been rewarded with a position in their group, and those found praying to another way have been violated and stripped of their property and family.

    Placing ZION placards on their hovels identifies members compliance ..

    Jeffs foresaw his arrest and conviction. First he installed the programme.
    His entire life was invested in its grand design. Through years of testing through the alta academy, he fine tuned and tweaked through observation.
    Mass hypnosis is not easy, but it can be accomplished. Dominance of peoples minds is nothing new. All govern-mental-agencies serve to rein and attach peoples to a plan. Live this way, and believe this, and anyone who dare resist will be severely punished. Jeffs perfected mental governance. ( Do-minion) With fear he drives them. Keeping sweet means don’t resist me. Sworn in secrecy, the willies and others were given privy information to the coming crisis in the world. He has told them things and they have come true. He knows things that would astound you. He knows the Law.

    Unfortunately, the minds of people is not Zion. Their hearts are tied to Zion.
    He has not won hearts with love. His game is force and compliance.
    His brilliance has been used to tarnish love. He moves like a demon.
    Clever and cunning. Ordering people and watching their response, then reordering them. This is not how God moves.

    Anyone who assists him is guilty of shedding innocence. Their blood will be unpure before the lamb. This is punishment enough. Nothing they do or touch will be clean, and thew will perish slowly.

  73. Well, I have no brook with Willie the Thug, and it appears to me that both Willies have unclean hands with respect to the child molestation that was going on, but I just don’t see either of the Willies giving back power to Warren. Maybe I am wrong, but I don’t see it that way.

  74. They need a better lawyer….one that doesn’t use 3rd graders excuses like, “other people were doing it!, so we thought it was OK”

    BULLHEAD CITY, Ariz. (AP) – A former Colorado City fire official accused of misusing public funds has been sentenced to probation.

    The Mohave Valley Daily News reports that former Colorado City Fire Chief Jacob Leonard Barlow had pleaded guilty to solicitation of misuse of public money in February and was sentenced Friday. Authorities a fire district’s money was deposited into an unauthorized account and misused for personal purchases. Barlow’s attorney, Bill Porter, says there was no evidence of misuse of public funds and that other fire districts have done the same thing.

    Prosecutor James Schoppman says other districts don’t use an outside account for personal business. David William Darger also pleaded guilty Friday to the same charges as Barlow. Darger is the former secretary-treasurer for the fire district.

  75. I don’t see it either CalGal. That said, I hope everyone is keeping the Willies at arms length.

  76. The SLTrib’s article on the cameras in Short Creek, and how the FLDS are spying on everyone in town:

  77. The Federal discrimination lawsuit is still rolling along. Not that its going to do much, besides prove the obvious.

  78. The coming Federal raid is going to set people back on their heels a bit.
    Two terabytes of information gathered… check.
    Phones and internet Ip’s tapped … check
    Motion filed … check

    Bye bye Hildale and CCA as it once was known.
    Now you will witness the full extent of mans Law.

    Anyone left will need to obtain permission to exist on their own property.
    All possible because Warren Jeffs was allowed to drive the bus.

    The Willies and Lyle Jeffs will be indicted on laundry lists longer than I care to list.

    They have all proved themselves as hypocritical liars and every thing
    is now in the light. The feds don’t make a move unless its a slam dunk.

    This is a drop in the bucket of land grabs….

  79. Just returned from Short Creek – most of the prairie dress-wearing faithful seem to be staying indoors. Ran into Willie Jessop, who does not appear to be traveling around with any kind of entourage of bodyguards or anything. Sat near him at the Merry Wives and exchanged a few pleasantries.

  80. I hope you’re right Anon @ 1:28.

  81. This is the first I’ve heard of a Federal raid. Where is this information coming from?

  82. I would love to see a raid, not on the FLDS people, but upon their corrupt leadership. Based on the past reluctance of governmental agencies to do anything about their crimes, however, I will believe it when I see it.

  83. I would be very interested in the souce of this information

  84. I think a raid would ony drive these people to more extreem. They are on the beginning stages of becoming an outwardly violent group. So far the violence and abuse has been turned inwarads for the most part. At a certain point everybody cracks and it not always in the way you would like.

  85. I think you have a very valid point, OO.

  86. I don’t think there would be violence if the leadership were taken out by arresting them and effectively cutting off their ability to instigate violence. I’m sure there are violent people everywhere, but I don’t think that most of the FLDS people are inherently violent. They might be driven to more prayer and self-deprecation but I just don’t think they will turn to violence on their own, without being instructed to be violent. They don’t do anything else without permission/instruction. Why should I think they will be violent on their own?

  87. The man who has been robbing cabins in SW Utah has been captured.

    Mountain man Troy James Knapp was captured in Utah.

  88. This may be totally off subject, but is anyone following the Jodi Arias murder case? She entered into Mormonism to please her boyfriend and then stabbed him in the heart, shot him in the head, sliced his neck from ear to ear and stabbed him 29 times in the back. Does this not sound like blood atonement? It was briefly mentioned in some articles but not in the trial so far. Any thoughts?

  89. I hope you are right and I am wrong Cal. Here is where I base my stayement. When I was there before this all began me and many like me were ready to draw blood on those issues. Most of us young and stupid, some of us a little more mature. It was the upity UPS that kept us from it. Thats where this whole “the lord will fight our battles” thing comes in. It was one of the things told me when I was up in arms. In a way we may both be right. Most will not but that group is full of all types and some are my type.

  90. I’ve been following it older anon, hadn’t thought of it that way but after I heard about Travis celebrating having baptized her into the mormon church by sodomizing her, I knew something was a little off.

  91. However, TC, we only have HER word for that act and she has proved herself a liar many many times over. And she killed the only person who can refute her character assination. I followed the trial for weeeks..but I am out of the country and its not news here. I’ll catch up next week. I figure it’ll stillll be going.

  92. Third Cousin and mc1199, her stating that from what she had learned from studying the Book of Mormon, fornication is not a bad sin, just adultry, so all those other sexual activities were permitted. I cannot imagine that to be an accurate Mormon teaching. But the horrible description of how she killed Travis Alexander sounds a lot like the Ervil LeBaron killings, doesnt it?

  93. To older anonymous- I also thought what Jodi Arias did sounded like blood atonement. She had been checking out several other “belief systems” such as wicca and self-improvement books and seminars prior to the mormon thing, (which I definitely think she plunged into to snare Travis A.) A criminal profiler who is a consultant for Criminal Minds talked with one of the many reporters. This was posted on one of the Arias trial links yesterday. This man said he thinks she is of the caliber of Ted Bundy in her talent for manipulation and lying, and is a “brilliant sociopath.” I tried to watch the trial now and then. I think this “babe” soaks up whatever ideas she can that will further personal agendas she develops. I think she would have done somebody in at some point in time. It just happened to be somebody involved with mormonism that she was attracted to, that made too many mistakes in allowing contact. I do think it is possible she heard about blood atonement and it seeped into her already disturbed mind. (Her parents told detectives more about the home life and her earlier years.)She has to have been saying stuff to TA we will never know about. And of course, a young slender gal (+she got a boob job after meeting TA) that offers “free sex” to a young guy knows she is making an offer almost impossible to refuse. She was very experienced with guys before meeting him-she was not naive, she was able to make them give her things and do things for her and had been “around the block” plenty of times if you know what I mean. (I’ve been clicking on all the juicy SHORTER tidbit links.)Anyway, there’s a red-haired author gal writing a book on the whole thing. Maybe she will unearth more true details- as if we can stand any more! I know everyone is being lied to, so what’s the point of trying to listen to the filth anyway. I listened much more to the OJ trial, maybe because it had almost no “adult” material, but plenty of intrigue. Anyway, with this Arias creature, maybe some truth here and there, but much more lies than truth.

  94. Somehow we get totally off the subject. Where is the information about this “raid” coming from?

  95. Here’s an ABC news report on Warren Jeffs broadcast today:

    Texas prison officials stated they could stop his followers from speaking to him.

  96. Above post should say Texas prison officials can’t stop Jeffs from speaking with followers.

  97. A Texan, for a moment I was hopeful until you corrected the above statement. If only they could prevent Jeffs from having contact with his followers. Then they might could break free and think for themselves.

  98. I think the dangers of them harming themselves is much greater than harming anyone out in the world – besides they have too many people working to correct their bad habits to have any effect.

    The law would be on them like a duck on a june bug, but they have the potential to continue to harm each other and just like Utah’s outlook on the child molestations, what they do in the name of their religion, they wont muck with them as they abuse one another.

  99. Stamp, think you are right, as long as the fundie polygamists abuse their own, Utah LE looks the other way. Evidence of such when Brian David Mitchell decided to seek plural wives by kidnapping outside the fundie culture, Utah LE ramped up a massive effort to solve the case. If his victims had been from a fundie group, it would have been treated like the Ruby Jessop case IMO. Luckily for Elizabeth Smart she was from mainstream America, no so for Ruby Jessop and many others like her.

  100. Is it that LE looks the other way when FLDS preisthoodliums abuse their own or is it that the sheeple are not willing/capable to stand up for themselves and point figures at their abusers so there is no evidence and secondly priesthoodliums bought their own police force so it didn’t do any good to voice their abuse? As long as the sheeple don’t stand up for themselves and other sheeple are not willing to bear witness then there is not much real LE can do without evidence. I know Utah and AZ LE can do more but, I don’t see the blame all on them. Texas only did something when someone called to complain even if it was a prank call. At least the prankster gave LE the opportunity to investigate and the Texas LE were not on the FLDS payroll.

  101. If FLDS parents were as loud and concerned as the Smart parents and other family members then LE can’t look the other way.

  102. Having more “apostates” living in short creek and also having the Mojave County LE more visible and present should give people who want to leave more avenues of escape. They still have to overcome the obstacles of family and the town Marshalls.

  103. I think the action taken by Utah on a couple accounts, the Black child molesting case, where they let him be to spend one more night with his child brides (off to Mexico tho instead… still on the lam with them) and Rod Holm, the bozo pictured at the top of this thread, he got his hand slapped when they caught him red handed with an underaged “bride” Ruby as I recall.

    There just hasnt been any meaningful action to protect the children, such as Texas showed the whole class.

  104. Chemist, perhaps I’ll be able to out-bid Wille at the 4/28 auction. Hee Hee. Wouldn’t that be fun? We could turn it into a safehouse/co-op/orchard/cheese factory/apostateville.

  105. what other properties will be available at the auction?

  106. Third Cousin: That would be a hoot. I really do not trust Willie the thug. He is out for himself and no one else.

  107. I think there are several properties that are under Warren’s personal name and hence subject to auction…. not sure if they are all going on the block the same day, coming soon April 25th.

  108. Perhaps the source for the Federal Raid is the date of the post: April Fool’s Day.

  109. That’s a crock full of BS nonsense.

  110. Well now I see why Mexico has always beckoned the FLDS types.

    Dont need no stinking birth certificate batches.

    And dont let the door hit you in the ass on your way out!

  111. Mexico is bound by UCC. See the video @ 19:00 min.

    The only countries not under Admiralty Law are:

    *North Korea

  112. I was thinking for a minute it might be a visit from our dear friend on the street, but no way he could make that long a post without quoting scripture or including some sort of scatalogical reference. So there are still crazies attracted to this site. Not a surprise.

  113. I would say Mexico is rather lawless right now.

  114. Just heard that a young man in Colorado City tried to hang himself a few days ago. Anyone have more details.

  115. new photos of semi-abandoned YFZ ranch are posted:

  116. If it weren’t what for the fact that it is what it is…YFZ could pass for a well ordered, self sustaining community, with lovely houses and a really nice church. Too bad it was/is run by mad men under the thumb of a lunatic.
    It’s still creepy how herds of cows, horses and people disappear in the dark of night!

  117. Anon, the only hanging I know of is one of Thugly’s 1/2 brothers and that happened a couple of years ago.

  118. I haven’t heard anything about a hanging. How do you fail at hanging yourself anyway. He tie the rope around his hand

  119. There was a hanging. There was intervention before the victim died. The last I heard (last week) the prognosis was uncertain but not looking good. I don’t know if there is any update on the status. That is all I know.

  120. The “short creek” cops are in more hot water with more allegations of breaking the law.

    Bruce Wisan say the cops are trespassing on UEP property. Trib article states:

    “Utah Department of Public Safety spokesman Dwayne Baird confirmed Tuesday that POST is conducting an investigation.”

  121. Interesting that a big van that shreds paper is parked in the parking lot of the out of business CMC store in colorado city…. just saying.

  122. That sounds rather ironic.

    Yes the FLDS bullcrap and bullying has been SHREDDED and WARREN is in PRISON.

    This Thursday, Warrens holdings in Shortcreek will go on the auction block, FURTHER SHREDDING his insane hold on those people.

  123. How did I miss this news report wherein Willie Jessop calls the short creek Jeffs compound “a forified porn palace.” ???


    Keith Dutson who is named is the father of Keith Jr who is in a Texas prison for sexually assaulting a child.

    Dale Barlow has previously been convicted of sexually assaulting a child and should be registered as a sex offender so why the heck is he anywhere around children?

    I’ll have to do some digging on Brian Jessop, but he’s probably not a squeaky clean guy either.

  125. The lasted from the Trib on the auction of Hildale property:

  126. Hey ex-FLDS, apparently you can join the Community of Christ without abandoning your family, as the LDS Church would have you do.

    ‘The document, now known as Doctrine and Covenants Section 150 reads “Monogamy is the basic principle on which Christian married life is built. Yet, as I have said before, there are also those who are not of this fold to whom the saving grace of the gospel must go. When this is done the church must be willing to bear the burden of their sin, nurturing them in the faith, accepting that degree of repentance which it is possible for them to achieve, looking forward to the day when through patience and love they can be free as a people from the sins of the years of their ignorance” This prophetic guidance affirms the doctrine of monogamous marriage and continues to condemn polygamy as a sin, while at the same time allowing polygamous families to join the RLDS church. Restrictions were placed upon the new members which prohibited them from taking additional wives.’

    Sister wives with the Priesthood. Now THAT would make a good reality TV show.

  127. If you know the whereabouts of Keith Dutson, Sr, Brian Jessop and/or Dale Barlow, please contact the US Department of Labor at 801-524-5706. Also, if you know the whereabouts of Keith Sr, please contact the Texas Attorney General at 512-463-2100.

    Looks like Keith Sr has been a busy man since his son was put in prison. It isn’t every man who has a federal and a state governmental body looking for him.

  128. Although I am not certain, I have been informed that the Community of Christ changed their rules and no longer allow polygamists. It’s correct, though, that they did for awhile, and it was after they gave women the priesthood.

  129. The Community of Christ was formerly termed the RLDS (Reorganized LDS), began at the time Emma Smith and others rejected the mainstream church before the trek to Utah due to the dispute over leadership after Joseph’s death, and immediately rejected polygamy.

  130. Speaking of the “Community of Christ”, the church just had their general conference and approved the ordination of gay persons, and authorized the clergy of the church to perform gay marriages. So in the (RLDS) aka Community of Christ gay marriage is now recognized.

    If gay marriage now recognized in the Community of Christ, can plural marriage be far behind.

  131. No details yet but I’m hearing Willie bought the Jeffs compound.

  132. A Texan: Yes, in the CoC, plural marriage is far behind. Ain’t gonna happen, especially in a church that has long defined itself as different from the LDS in the important way of rejecting plural marriage.

    Moreover, plural marriage is nothing like same sex marriage. Same sex marriage involves two people who fit neatly into the existing marriage structure–no problems about inheritance, community property, one spouse having the other on his or her health insurance policy at work, no question about who gets the social security or pension when the other spouse dies. Plural marriage is as unlike same sex marriage as it is unlike monogamous marriage.

  133. Willie’s purchase:

  134. The van arriving in this photo is the locksmith Willie hired. I don’t know if you need a twitter account to see it but probably. Jim Dalrymple of the SLTrib posted it.

  135. St. George Spectrum on today’s auction;

  136. more from the Trib. “Tear down that wall” of infamous Gorbachev fame.

  137. Lyle hates when this happens. He used to live there for a short time too. Guess a few more people playing musical houses.

    Good thing we know where Warren is.

  138. So, apparently Rodney Dangerfield did a polygamy movie.

  139. Here’s a video shot by the SLTrib of Warren Jeff’s compound in Hildale, UT

    Wonder how much longer will it take for officials in Texas to take control of YFZ?

  140. Saw it. Makes me think the whole world is being transformed into crickers. Please God send zombies anything but crickers

  141. Uh oh, look who’s getting out of prison…

  142. Wendell Nielsen gets out of prison next week. Article on SLT polygamy blog.

  143. I get time off for good behavior, but one year of a 10-year sentence? Seriously? And here I thought Texas was tough on criminals. I don’t get it!

  144. Wendell was considered a nonviolent offender. He wasn’t accused of sexual assault of a minor and even though he is the one who gave LeAnn away to LeRoy, that wasn’t considered. I’m not surprised he got out. He’s got a lot of health problems.

    What I am surprised about is that he is going to live in El Paso and not somewhere in the panhandle. I would think that it would be closer to Short Creek from Amarillo than from El Paso.

  145. Perhaps the parole board felt that an old man with money coming out of his ears taking care of three menopausal grandma’s wasn’t a significant enough of an outrage against humanity to keep a well behaved man in an overcrowded prison system?

  146. The difference from Amarillo and El Paso to Short Creek is only about an hour’s difference, El Paso actually being closer.

  147. I wonder who will be WSJ’s next visitor after Nielsen gets out? Fortunately, Palestine is around 11 hours drive to the Powledge pen at Palestine.

  148. Warren is being PAROLED ! All charges being dropped !

    It wouldn’t matter at this point. The money is gone. His followers are all
    certifiable nuts. They have no trust. Willie bought their only titled property.
    They are now scattered all over the usa. Barlows WIN ! FINALLY

  149. Sorry to display my ignorance, but who are the Barlows and how do they win? I mean I know there are a lot of FLDS Barlows, but I don’t understand their role in all of this.

  150. Ooops I meant that El Paso is about 11 hours drive to Palestine.

  151. Anon, I assume the previous anon is referring to the mass excommunication of the Barlows and others from the FLDS in 2004, which many believe was due to a power struggle within the sect.

  152. UNLV panel discussion with Brown family and men and women who have left polygamy.

  153. From the way the Barlow men were described in Ben Bistline’s book, he probably won a lot of folks over when he gave ’em the boot.

  154. Here’s a nice, creepy sermon from ‘Uncle Wendell’ to some young brides to be. Starts at 3:15

  155. TV station reports that: “The Diversity Foundation has assisted about 400 young men and women who have left Colorado City and Hildale. But unlike in the past, when FLDS leaders forced young men to leave, Price says many are now leaving on their own.”

    Read entire report at:

  156. Found this on the Politics R Us Principle blog ( has anyone else come across this or is this old news?

  157. KitKat: Holy crap on that first link. Every time you think Warren couldn’t get any creepier, someone always has to come along and prove you wrong. eek 😯

  158. The way women are being treated for a miscarriage makes me believe someone in leadership has done willful abortion and trying to hide it.

  159. Eeek hahahahahahaha thanks anon 4:20

  160. Nah, it probably stems from his own complicated birth.

  161. I believe one day it will come out that abortion was used to hide incest within the Jeffs family.


    Lorin Holm story with home tour from KitKat’s second link – thanks.

    The confessions of Warren’s sister on the first… is a good snapshot into his character.

  163. On today’s date in 2010 Arizona law enforcement executed search warrants at short creek government offices and Jake Barlow’s residence. At issue was misuse of public funds.

  164. Warren has collected quite the quiver of unfortunate anniversaries… that he would rather forget, not unlike all his wedding anniversaries.

  165. BTW I dont see how Warren’s sister could be guilty of murder if she didnt submit to his advances, if he masturbated into the toilet to teach her where babies come from, why he could have used that on one of his stable of wives, it seems if that is the standard he is guilty to high heaven especially with his daily masturbation exercises that were recorded in Texas jails and prisons, he should have been saving up for the day the walls fell down.

    So, I think she aborted an incestuous molestuous pregnancy by Warren when she was 14.

  166. Stamp, I don’t see it that way. I think she has been punished for having miscarriages as if she had had abortions. I wouldn’t put it past Warren to order abortions to keep himself out of trouble, but I just don’t see evidence that that happened here.

  167. Here’s an interesting article and video that FLDS women should hear.

    Listen to entire speech at above link. Appears that Elizabeth Smart might be in a bit of disagreement with LDS church over sex education.

  168. Last night on National Geographic channel they started a series on polygamy – showcasing Centennial Park group. Just like their other ones on Hutterites and Amish this one will run every Tuesday night – 9pm eastern. I saw about half of it before I had to go bottle feed a bunch of orphan baby kittens. They spent most of the time that I watched explaining that the women in the group get to pick the men in their culture. They followed a young husband and two wives and also an older guy who “shepherds” the young men who are waiting to have a woman pick them. The young single men do community service and learn from the old guy how to be worthy of the women. Women were queens and in control according to what I watched.

  169. Thanks WG – I just set my DVR to record the series.

  170. Life for escaped “plig” kids:

  171. Expanded version of the same article in LA Times:,0,4177150.htmlstory

  172. the latimes atricle is fake there never were any Browers in the flds.

  173. It says “Bowers” not “Browers.” Don’t know if there were “Bowers” among the FLDS, but that’s what it says.

  174. There is Merrill Bauer & family,but their with Warren’s group,at least they were recently,I know Rand,Guy & Chris from when I lived in Salt Lake City……other-Anon

  175. These are Donald Barlow’s boys–not sure if “Bowers” was a mistake on the part of the writer or if the boys didn’t give their true last name.

  176. That’s who I was thinking of other-Anon.

  177. An interesting article from 2011, which I believe was posted on this blog on subject of polygamy in Utah by former member of LeBaron group, the daughter of the murdered Rulon Allred. She predicts that new Ervil LeBarons, Mitchells and Jeffs will continue appear on the scene.

    From last paragraph of article:

    ” He’ll use a belief in plural marriage or “the One Mighty and Strong” to commit pedo­philia, abuse, fraud, murder. He’ll find the crack in the past and cast his spell, arrogating to himself the practice of polygamy or the tool of “revelation.” And the underground will shift and make room without even realizing it has created the opportunity once again for Caliban to kidnap innocence and conduct his bizarre ceremony.

    Read entire article at:

  178. Pseudonyms might be appropriate here too but I really don’t like it when it’s not disclosed upfront.


  180. The text of what FLDS Texas posted:

    In Town of Colorado City v. United Effort Plan Trust, (D AZ, May 8. 2013), an Arizona federal district court gave a victory to the state of Utah in its efforts to reform the United Effort Plan Trust which holds property occupied by members of the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). In this lawsuit, the twin towns of Colorado City, Arizona and Hildale, Utah (along with their water and electric companies) sought a declaratory judgment as to (1) whether transfers of property by the court-appointed special fiduciary are constitutional, and (2) whether the Cookes who occupy a parcel of land under a 2008 agreement with the special fiduciary or Robert Black who previously occupied it through a 1999 oral agreement under the unreformed trust have a legal right to it.

    As to the constitutional issue, the court held that while the claim was not barred by res judicata or collateral estoppel (see prior posting), the towns are barred by the doctrine of laches from asserting their claims:
    Plaintiffs waited years to assert that claim, during which hundreds of property transactions were completed in reliance on the validity of the reformed trust and Mr. Wisan’s actions. On the question of right to occupancy, the court ruled in favor of the Cookes. It focused on language in the trust at the time Black obtained his occupancy rights: “use of property owned by the United Effort Plan Trust is not and does not become a right or claim of anyone who may benefit in any way from the Trust.” It also concluded that the statute of frauds precludes Black from asserting a claim of property rights and that Black has abandoned any rights he had in the property.

  181. Another case where warren’s “answer them nothing” policy has lead to a legal defeat for flds leaders. The flds leaders lose again.

  182. This was posted 3 days ago on the Texas Polygamy blog. I have no guarantee of authenticity but it is moving and this ex’d man appears to want his family to know that he misses them:

    My name is David Bistline. My family has been FLDS for generations. I live in Colorado City, AZ and my wife and I were given to each other by Rulon Jeffs, the father of Warren Jeffs. Unlike many other marriages which resulted in heartache and sadness, for us it was a match made in heaven. She was 21. I was 27.

    Today I am still the husband of one and only one angel wife, and the father of ten children, plus another baby on the way. But my beloved wife and children have been separated from me as a result of the commandments of the prophet who rules this community. I cried when they were taken away and thought I would never live through it. I have cried on many walks and many nights when I sit alone in my house staring into the emptiness. I love my family with every beat of heart and I want them and the whole world to know that.

    I miss my wife Esther, the most beautiful woman on earth. I miss my little ones. I was blessed to be able to spend so much time with the children and bond with them. I think about my children and worry about them every day.

    In this community, the holiest people do not break the law and go on the Internet. In this, I confess my sins. I made this blog so the word of David Bistline’s love for his wife Esther will spread like seeds blowing in the wind with the hopes that one of those seeds will find its way into Esther’s world and grow in her heart, wherever she is. I love her and my children with a fire in my heart and I love the Lord my God with all my heart too. These two things go together.

    One more thing. No man will ever love my wife and my children like I do. No man can tell me that God does not want me to take care of my wife and children. I will do everything in my power to ensure their welfare and deliverance, and I will stop at nothing within the law to get my family back, to protect them and keep them safe. To raise them right and to fill their lives with joy.

    So if you see Esther Bistline or any of my children, please tell them that their father loves them and is waiting for them to come home.

    This Picture was of Joseph when he was in the hospital getting his teeth fixed. He was trying to decide whether he was happy or sad. I hope that we can get back together soon. He comes running to me every time I visit with him. I know he misses me and I know he loves me very much. My beautiful wife comforting him. I love her very much and hope to be back with her soon.
    For my honey Esther

    Please read this and let your heart be softened to see the truth. God wants us to be together forever.
    10 And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband:

    11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.

    12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

    13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

    14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
    I miss you dearly Esther. I love you so much. I miss and love all of my precious children Angela Lucille, David Lee Jr., Fredrick Dell, Edson Porter, Warren Leroy, William Daniel, Alvin Smith, Joseph Brigham, Kathleen Rose, Charlett Elaine, and Baby Boy Bistline.

  183. It is real 3C. His family was taken from him in the middle of the night.

  184. His commentary is sad and eloquent. I hope his story helps others stop the insanity. That’s why I posted it.

  185. I don’t want to come across as insensitive, but I think it’s odd that so many of you view these FLDS men that follow Warren as devils, until they lose their families. Then you make them out to be victims. If Warren was able to take their families from them, they were fools for following him.

  186. I view most of them as pathetic with or without their families. What disgusts me the most is that Warren is able to play “move the family around” and everyone just goes along with it. It is sad. The ones who are the devil are those like Merril and Lyle who conspired with Warren and helped hide his secrets.

  187. Over time, I’ve come to view many of the adults as mindless puppets who blindly follow without ANY questions. And, as PT [above] said, the ones who helped WJ and continue to mentally torture families at whim. Then there’s Willie the Thug, and his ”I was blind, but now I see..” &^%$! I STILL believe he is on this for himself.

  188. Does anyone know where Willie Jessop got the money to buy Warren’s place? Also, aren’t most of the FLDS kids fed from working people’s tax money through WIC and food stamps? If so, and if they’re on a beans-only diet, what’s happening to the food stamp food?

  189. It’s my understanding, Willie used the, yet-to-be-paid, $30M judgment he won against some FLDS, to ‘purchase’ the property. No money, effectively, changed hands.

  190. That’s my understanding too mc1199. He bought it on credit of the judgment owed to him by Warren and the FLDS.

  191. I wonder if he’ll use the balance to buy YFZ??? Or if he has any interest in that property, if Texas puts it on the block. He still has, roughly, a $26M credit….plus accruing interest.

  192. Given Jeffs’ recent orders that no one have sex anymore, this thought also crossed my mind: With this particular group of men, it seems as though they perceive higher status or feel some sort of gratification for the numbers of children they spawn. If so, then Jeffs’ orders for no sex could be an attempt to keep other men from surpassing his numbers while he’s indisposed in prison. Also, I was thinking that since there can only be one “prophet” at a time and successors are (in theory) named before the existing one passes, Jeffs’ followers would be in limbo for decades IF the authorities would stop allowing the phone calls!

  193. I’ve heard that there might be an oil company or 2 interested in purchasing the YFZ since it has housing available for employees. Not sure if the source of the information is credible or not.

  194. Third Cousin, do you have a link for the original post by David Bistline? I tried to find it but I don’t think I have the right “Texas Polygamy Blog.”

  195. The blog roll on this blog lists it as Texas Polygamy. You can just click on it.

  196. PT, Here’s the link:
    Anon 05/09/2013 9:40am

    It references a tumblr blog but I couldn’t find the original there.

  197. David Bistline,good luck getting your wife/children back,even if you get a lawyer,if you win your case,you will still have to pay lawyer’s fees & that can be very expensive & court’s cases can drag on for years,if your lucky you might win,however don’t count on it,your wife is too brainwashed to know what’s going on,compliments of WSJ & his goon squad. My brother & I told you last year to” MOVE ON”.. why? Because your not going to get your wife/children back any time soon,so MOVE ON……….other-Anon

  198. Other Anon, I need to move on too, how did you accomplish that?

  199. It sounds that David is still under Warren’s spell… he needs to hire that attorney and drag them into court so he gets visitation if not full custody.

    But Esther? He might as well kiss her memory goodbye.

  200. OFF TOPIC:
    For those with Kindles…there is a book, currently on the FREE list, called Section 132 by Helga Zeiner. It’s the story of a fictional polygamist group [with WJ’s alluded too and YFZ mentioned] and the life of a 12-13yr old ‘sold’ to the ‘Bishop’ of a group in British Columbia. So far, it’s interesting. It runs two side by side stories and, of course, they’ll intersect down the road.

  201. Darn, MC, I already paid money for that book last year!

  202. I know how it ends…but the in-between, so far, seems to follow a lot of what we know, suspect or wonder about goes on inside the FLDS groups, to some extent. I’ll know for sure by the last page.
    OK, back to topic!

  203. 3C ,you must just let them go,you can’t tell them WSJ’s evil,they won’t believe it,I have relatives who think WSJ is a prophet,I can’t convince he’s not,they may find out for themselves, I won’t do that for them,they think I’ve gone to hell,so they won’t shake hands with me,if they talk with me it’s a very short time, or they will be put on the spot by WSJ,Lyle or henchmen,so let them go,get on with your life & take of your family: husband/children,that’s what I mean by MOVE ON……..other-Anon

  204. I don’t presume to speak for 3C, but you don’t give up on people you love. Telling them to “MOVE ON” is telling them their families are not worth their trouble, care or concern. That may be how you feel about your family, but, one size does NOT fit all.

  205. MC1199,well that’s your opinion……………other-Anon

  206. This was in my Idaho Statesman newspaper this morning – though I think it may have been posted earlier from another paper.

  207. Well there are at least two men ahead of Bistline who have won visitation rights to see their kids. I hope Bistline tries too. The more fight they get the better.

  208. Is this real?

  209. Yes, third cousin. I believe that blog spot is real. I found it some time ago and have followed from a distance. The prolific anonymous woman appears to know much about covert FLDS workings, has the poor grammar and spelling of one who was denied a proper education like an FLDS child, and is undeniably very, very angry over FLDs injustices. Also, the statements of the blog creator, David, ring true in his grief for losing his family. It’s a sad and odd blog spot for sure–but enlightening because of the raw emotion expressed there.

  210. Just read some of that Blogspot blog.Having lived there and being of relatively sound only one thing comes to mind. What a load of bull. Having being a victim of the Towns over active imagination however it doesn’t come as a suprise. This kind of fear and diluted thinking is why I don’t have anything to do with apostates. Don’t get me wrong people can belive what they want but those types of alligations can ruin lives. Im sure its possible that its true but if they are wrong and there is a God I would hope he has a special place in hell for them. If there is a God and he does not have a place in hell for them he can send me to hell because I wouldnt want to spend a minute with his a$$

  211. Sorry kjw, I didn’t mean to imply the blog was fake, just the 3rd from last comment. I know for sure the blog is real. Thanks.

  212. Well OO I guess you could say, Warren Jeffs found his version of “Hell on Earth”…

    We dont know what will happen to him on the other side, and while I dont imagine it will be pretty, his last decades on earth will be spent caged up like a wild, vicious animal who cant be trusted…

    So that works for me.

  213. I don’t recall mentioning Warren.

  214. An interesting observation today. I noticed that most the time no matter what I post im replied to about Warren being in prison.
    Warren didn’t even enter my mind once while writing the post.

    I am fully aware Warren is in prison. I would like to consider myself at least that well informed.

  215. Has anybody heard anything else about the rumor of some FLDS members moving to Verde Valley?, if so share the information…….other-Anon

  216. i know of some ex-FLDS that have moved to Sedona

  217. oops make that Prescott

  218. Well OO you were talking about a guy with a special place in hell, and he bubbled to the top so to speak.

  219. Ah right on stamp.

    What is interesting about the gossip in the creek is you could find someone there to tell you anything you want to hear about me. I have heard some good ones. There has been many uncomfortable talks with my bishop because of what he has heard. Just saying a bunch of creekers on a blog gossiping is a bad idea. Peoples lives can unfortunately get ruined by people that think they know. I have seen it happen.

  220. OO, did you transfer/return to the mainstream fold?

    Funny, the rumor mill reminds me of the time I was a senior in a small college (in a small Washington town) and heard a rumor that I was engaged – when nothing could have been farther from the truth!

  221. OO

    Sorry that nonsense is following you around…. but dang you left it. IMHO your Bishop shouldnt be listening to wagging tongues but helping you move forward. FWIW

  222. BTW your Bishop wouldnt like the stories about me true or not ha ha

  223. OO: “An interesting observation today. I noticed that most the time no matter what I post im replied to about Warren being in prison…

    I am fully aware Warren is in prison. I would like to consider myself at least that well informed.”

    OO, Stamp is (obviously) Swarmi from the trib boards. ‘Nuff said.

  224. OO,IDK who you are,I’m anonymous & care to stay that way….It’s none of my business who you are!!!!!! Most of us put our screen name on this sight,others don’t,we have that choice if we want it????other-Anon

  225. Since some of you guys seem very knowledgeable about FLDS, I have a couple of questions that maybe you could answer. If everyone who is not an FLDS member is considered a Gentile, the implication then, is that FLDS members consider themselves to be Jewish. Is that so? Also, what do FLDS members call the acknowledged Jewish people–those who follow the old testament and go to Synagog? Certainly not Gentiles, right?

  226. Like all the other Churches in the Latter Day Saints movement, former members and members of other Mormon faiths are Apostates. All other Non-Mormon people are Gentiles.

  227. Anon @ 8:00 Are children that are removed by their parents Apostates?

  228. Anyone who was flds and now us nit is an apostate.

    I had that thought that stamp is swarmi for a minute then realized that it didnt matter. Swarmi/stamp is not the only one that answers in that way. I even get it with face to face interactions. The difference is face to face I get to give dirty looks lol

  229. The FLDS sheeple believe they are descendants of Joseph who was sold into slavery in Egypt,through his son Ephraim,thing is most Gentiles have the Ten Tribes of Israel in their ancestry,since the tribes migrated into Western Europe,Northern Europe, Northern Russia & probably Siberia, early on after being conquered by the Assyrians,along with the Jews later in their diaspora,as far as I’m concerned Jews & Gentiles are HUMAN BEINGS,that’s what REALLY MATTERS!!!!!!!other-Anon

  230. So I gotta ask. What about flds sheeple are they human beings?

  231. Let’s not try to “out” people on the blog.

  232. Totally agree with Third Cousin.

  233. OO,would you consider WSJ’s FLDS who treat their kids,wives,apostate relatives like trash, human beings???? It depends on your point of view,we all have opinions…………..other-Anon

  234. What an odd feeling. Im laughing but at the same time disgusted.

    We do all have opinions. But also our opinions will effect others opinion of us.
    It was a simple question and in my opinion had a simple answer. Instead its taken as trying to “out” some one. Sounds to me like no one wants to answer. If they are not people then how am I to believe you respect me. I would be/probably am a fool to believe so.

  235. Everyone is a human being in my book. I was even one if the people being treated like trash. Some people just aren’t very nice human beings. I may never forgive alot if people my entire life but I don’t think anyone is lesser than I. Everyone has their own objective. Just because I hold myself to (in my opinion) a higher standard it does not and never will give me the right to judge anyone elses.

  236. OO, I have always had respect for you since you joined us, as I have most others on this blog who may feel the need to remain anonymous. I, and I presume you as well, on this blog use alternate names for either safety or other reasons – I am actually getting less nervous about it the longer I’ve been here. Please continue to join us. But let’s not speculate about anybody’s ident.

  237. I hope that I would never consider another person to be trash. IMO, everyone is to be respected as a person and as a son or daughter of God. We may have different beliefs and opinions, but we are still people. Also, I am not really interested in anyone’s real name. I respect other poster’s wish to remain known only by their pen name as I hope they respect my wishes. to remain known only as chemist.

  238. Time for a new thread?

  239. Excuse me for being dense but I’m not entirely sure I understand the answers to my questions. Do FLDS consider themselves to be Jewish? If so, am I understanding correctly that although socially and historically established Jews have been differentiated from Gentiles for thousands of years, FLDS says that Jews are Gentiles and FLDS members are Jews?

  240. It seems like many of you folks on this discussion board know each other and/or are intimate with the FLDS lifestyle–consequently, I feel I ought to introduce myself somewhat. I am a writer, working on a “fictional” story about an FLDS member. My questions are intended to give me background for my characters’ discussions with the Gentiles she has to deal with. As a fellow human being, I am deeply concerned about what’s been happening under WJ and this book, hopefully, will present a compassionate view of the struggles of the members to adhere to their beliefs under increasingly challenging dictates from their perceived prophet. However, if you feel it’s inappropriate for me to gather information from this board, I will respect that. I just want to be up-front about my intentions and will bow to consensus.

  241. Hey, kjw.

    I’m always for supporting someone’s creativity. In this case, I think the problem is that the question you are asking has a more complex answer than is really going to work in this comment based board. Maybe it would be better if you asked for books or other research references.

    The Jewish thing goes back to early LDS teachings and is common to fundamentalists sects and even some mainstream LDS. I suggest that you research it from that point of view. Maybe others can give you a list of reading material. John Llewellyn’s book Polygamy is one source.

  242. KJW, my entire time as a plyg it would have been offensive to call us Jewish. I’m no scholar but I think you have to be born Jewish. I always understood it more as a race than a religion. Flds call themselves Christians. Anyone can be part of the flds as long a they are not colored with American Indian being the exception. I guess lamanites are ok because I think it was the prophet Samuel was a lamanite.

  243. kjw, My understanding is that Jews are the only religious group in the world that is simultaneously a religion, a culture, and an ethnicity all at once.

    Apostates are mormons of any kind who have left the faith or fail to practice it. Mormons of all kinds consider those who are not mormon to be gentiles. That’s how I was taught anyway.

  244. WSJ’s latest revelation:

    I hope SLC destruction doesn’t occur next week when I’ll be there for the annual Safety Net Conference.

  245. In the mainstream LDS church all members are members of one of the tribes of Israel. That lineage is pronounced in a patriarchal blessing.

    Some LDS information on patriarchal blessings can be found in the references below. I do not know if the flds do patriarchal blessings or not. Joseph Smith assigned the first LDS patriarch and discussed P. blessings in his teachings. The LDS do not consider themselves to be Jewish, but recognize Jewish people as also being of one of the 12 tribes of Israel..

  246. kjw: The entire Mormon movement believes that most of its members are part of the House of Israel (in other words, descended from Jacob in the Old Testament, who is also named Israel). Jacob (Israel) had 12 sons by two wives and two concubines. The Jews descend from Judah. Most people in the mainstream Mormon church and its offshoots are generally believed to be of the House of Israel, but descended from Jacob’s son, Joseph. Joseph himself had two sons, Ephraim and Manassah. A common belief is that most white folks who are Mormons are descended from Ephraim, and the “Lamanites” (commonly believed to be Native Americans) are descended from Manassah.

    No Mormons believe they are Jews. The designation of Jew would be limited to the Jewish people in the same sense that everyone thinks of Jews. Mainstream Mormons, at least, tend to have some affinity for Jews, believing that Jews and Mormons alike are of the House of Israel, but there is some anti-semitism among Mormons who believe that the Jews were the people who were wicked enough to kill Jesus.

    There is a sense among Mormons that members of the House of Israel are somewhat predisposed to be open to the “truth” of the “Restoration,” the Restoration idea coming from the belief of Joseph Smith that early Christianity fell into apostasy and lost its priesthood–the authority to act in the name of God. Joseph Smith, through the ministration of angels, had the priesthood “restored” so that it could once again function on the earth. There is a belief that members of the House of Israel are the most receptive to “the gospel” as Mormons understand it, and are therefore the most likely converts to Mormonism.

    Fundamentalists, I think, are very likely to retain that sense of being the “chosen people,” of the House of Israel. For the mainstream Mormon Church, they tend to believe that the seed of Israel (i.e., the descendants of Jacob) is widespread throughout the world. After the Babylonian captivity aroung 600 B.C., ten of Jacob’s (Israel’s) “tribes” were lost. (Each “tribe” being descended from one of Jacob’s 12 sons.) Some Mormons have a belief that the lost 10 tribes were taken somewhere (I’ve heard that they were associated with the North Star!), but the more common belief is that they were dispersed throughout the world, fulfilling the promise to Abraham that through his seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed. So by dispersing the tribes, God helped assure that the “chosen” lineage would be carried on throughout the world. It is a blessing to be descended from Israel (Jacob). I don’t know how Fundamentalist think about the lost 10 tribes, and whether those descended from other than Joseph and Judah are also among the “chosen.”

    In any case, the concept of outsiders being “gentiles” is an outgrowth of the belief that Mormons are of the House of Israel. Mormons know they are not Jews, but believe they are “Israelites.” The concept and the language are well-enough established, and well-enough known, that I once heard a Jew who was speaking to (mainstream) Mormons joke that this was the one place where he could stand before an audience as a “full-fledged Gentile.” And while that is a great line that gets laughs, he knew enough about Mormons to know that it wasn’t really accurate, because Mormons don’t think of Jews as Gentiles. Rather, Jews are kind of in a class of their own. Jews could kind of be “spiritual” Gentiles, but they are not lineage Gentiles.

    I don’t know if this has clarified anything, but the bottom line is that Mormons more or less think of themselves as being the new Chosen People, the new Israel, and those who are outside of the spiritual group are often referred to as “Gentiles.”

    One other concept that accompanies the Mormon belief in themselves as the House of Israel is the idea of the “Law of Adoption.” If someone joins the Mormon church, but isn’t believed to be of the lineage of Jacob, they are spiritually “adopted” into the House of Israel. Some Mormons would probably go so far as to believe that the spiritual adoption physically changes their blood to make them part of the House of Israel in a kind of literal sense. So by that means, converts get to be part of the group that sees outsiders as “Gentiles.”

    Maybe it’s a little like the Amish calling non-Amish “English,” without regard to their actual lineage.

    Hope this helps.

  247. I agree with most everything CaGal wrote. The exception being the comment about physically changing the blood. I have not heard of this in the current day mainstream LDS church. I do know of some LDS who are members of a tribe by “adoption” and others who are members of a tribe with no mention of adoption.

    It would be interesting to learn the flds practices and teachings on this topic.

  248. Calgal is probably pretty accurate with the flds version a well. Reading that gave me at least 7 flashbacks to priesthood history class.

  249. The genealogy of the Crawford Clan traces back to David Crawford who comes from Ayershire, Scotland and then gets a little fuzzy, but some say it goes back to Judah. Once you get back to Noah there is only one line from there back to Adam.

  250. You know CalGal, that last part about the blood changing makes sense with some of Warren’s teachings that when a Mother and her children are reassigned to a new Father the children’s DNA changes. Didn’t hold up to well with DNA tests in Texas though.

  251. In the mainstream LDS church all members are members of one of the tribes of Israel. That lineage is pronounced in a patriarchal blessing.

    Some LDS information on patriarchal blessings can be found in the references below. I do not know if the flds do patriarchal blessings or not. Joseph Smith assigned the first LDS patriarch and discussed P. blessings in his teachings. The LDS do not consider themselves to be Jewish, but recognize Jewish people as also being of one of the 12 tribes of Israel..

    I had a longer post that had more references, but it has been in moderation for the last 1-2 days. See if this one goes through.

  252. Proud Texan: LOL re the DNA tests! Chemist–the changing of the blood may be a “folk doctrine,” but I’ve heard it. I couldn’t say whether any authority figures ever taught it. And I also agree that all members are seen as members of tribes of Israel, by blood or adoption.

    One thing I have never followed up on is whether it is now common to give a patriarchal blessing to Africans and declare them to be of the tribes of Israel. Ironically, the Falasha (not sure of the spelling) tribe in Ethiopia has long claimed to be Jews and eventually DNA testing validated their claims. IIRC, they turned out to be of the Cohen lineage, but I might be wrong about that. They have been accepted as Jews, at least in some places, and once again IIRC, the State of Israel evacuated them, or some of them, from Ethiopia and relocated them in Israel. It has been a couple of decades since I thought about that so I may or may not have the details right.

    Somehow I cannot possibly imagine that the FLDS would ever be able to think of people of African lineage as being part of the House of Israel, DNA notwithstanding. After all, Lucifer needed representation on this earth and got it through the blood of Cain.

  253. My grandma taught me the blood /DNA changing theory.

  254. So how did the DNA change…. (and does that make someone not human?) jk but yeah

    How did it allegedly change? And what would the FBI say bout dat?

  255. Not human. Noted.

  256. In ref to Anonymous June 1 @1:32 AM….. Ah yez, young Chozeff! How are you today? Why of course ve can make time for you!! Zhat’s vhat ve are heah for!! Just lie back, try to relax…. Ve vant you to feel comfortable…now zen…How long haff you felt ziss vay? Chust take a deep breath and you vill feel nize und shleepy..Zhat’s it…..nize und shleepy….

  257. 6:17-6:28 Warren proclaims that Christ’s posterity wound up in England. Did the LDS ever believe that?

  258. I am not aware of any official LDS belief that Christ had posterity. Have heard some LDS members speculate that Christ was married.

  259. I have heard that Jesus had posterity and that Joseph Smith was descended from him. Then there is this book:

  260. CalGal: Yes there has been speculation by LDS people about Christ’s wife and posterity, however it is not an accepted doctrine by the LDS church. I have heard a lay Sunday School teacher make that speculation in a class. Unfortunately there is no way to rove or disprove such assertions.

  261. LOL, I sure hope I don’t offend anyone. But, as a “gentile” it really cracks me up to hear how LDS and FLDS are so very preoccupied with lineage and then try to connect themselves to it or if not then by adoption. If a martian with blue blood/dna from another planet believes in Jesus. Then that is good enough to be considered a Christian and the rest is just silliness in my opinion.

  262. Regarding blood being changed by conversion, see Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, page 269, found here:

    “Again, if a pure Gentile firmly believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and yields obedience to it, in such a case I will give you the words of the Prophet Joseph—“When the Lord pours out the Holy Ghost upon that individual he will have spasms, and you would think that he was going into fits.”
    Joseph said that the Gentile blood was actually cleansed out of their veins, and the blood of Jacob made to circulate in them; and the revolution and change in the system were so great that it caused the beholder to think they were going into fits.”


    Ruby Jessop is on Katie Couric today

  264. I’ve been away from this board for some time, just catching up a little. As a reminder, I am former old-school (pre-WSJ) FLDS – a 40-year veteran of FLDS indoctrination, born and raised. In brief response to the question posed by ‘kjw’, like ‘chemist’ I pretty much agree with everything ‘CalGal’ said, though of course it’s more complicated. If a novel is to be believable, a great deal of research should be in order though I’ll acknowledge getting it on FLDS is problematic.

    @ kjw: If you haven’t already come across it, try researching . IMO, it’s fairly accurate.

    From my standpoint, it’s fairly obvious that an idealistic dreamer (and many would say, delusional) Joseph Smith Jr. structured his new religion using various known religious doctrine and practices. That is why you see Jewish terminology (Zionism, gentiles, etc.), general other Christian religious references, some early paganism (which pre-dates and is also seen in Christianity) and even Communism (compulsory tithing and United Order – the ‘law of consecration’).

    But there is an especially strong casting of secretive Masonic practice evident in Mormon temple rites and ordinances. e.g., The hand ‘grip’ used during the LDS temple marriage ceremony – also FLDS – comes from Masonic ritual. Another one is raising hands to the square. If still practiced, that one is also recognizable in a court of law where left hand placed on the bible and right arm raised to the square before swearing to tell the truth was or is required before giving testimony. It’s de rigueur in Mormon practice.

    Because Joseph was “a prophet, seer and revelator” – as is every other LDS/FLDS leader since – much was and continues to be added along the way. It’s called “direct revelation from God.”

    So, I see LDS and FLDS canon and practice as an aggregation of multiple religions and disciplines cobbled together by a charismatic young man from Palmyra, New York and introduced circa 1830. The main difference between mainstream LDS and, at least old-school FLDS, is the “F” … which is to say fundamentalist Mormons do not deviate from Joseph Smith’s teachings; they remain “fundamentally” true to the original teachings. That said, all bets are off with WSJ’s modern-day dehumanizing corruption of the religion. On both sides, every little thing, every little change can be justified because of the belief in divine revelation.

    The blood-changing belief is real. It was taught over the FLDS pulpit. To offer a related teaching, former FLDS prophet, LeRoy S. Johnson was of Lamanite descent (the rebellious Lamanites were cursed with dark skin) but he served as living proof of the concept of the oft-taught “become white and delightsome” in the sight of God. The term ‘DNA’ was never mentioned, just the literal changing of the blood and skin color.

    As for patriarchal blessings, I don’t know WSJ’s stance and practice, but those blessings (requiring the ‘laying on of hands’) were actively given before the advent of the ‘one-man rule’ split in the early ’80s. Mine was conferred on me at the age of 16 and I was given to understand it was the general age for everyone. I don’t know how it’s done in mainstream LDS practice.

  265. By the way, FLDS also believe Jesus Christ was polygamous and fathered an unknown number of offspring from multiple wives.

  266. In mainstream Mormonism Patriarchal Blessings are typically given to teenagers–maybe age 16 or 17. The belief that Jesus was a polygamist was widespread in early Mormonism. Mainstream Mormons don’t talk about it very much but I think the idea that Jesus was married is fairly widespread, though its not in official, modern texts. Growing up in the 50s and 60s I didn’t really hear about it at church, but I did once I got to BYU. Again it wasn’t in the official texts, but people talked about it. I’m sure there were plenty of people who were aware of early Mormon teachings about this, though I didn’t really get into the discussions. But I knew they were going on.

    I’m sure that anyone who wants quotes about Mormon belief that Jesus was a polygamist could easily find them on the internet. I’ve found them before but don’t have time to look now.

  267. E. Texas rules!

    There is no such thing as a branch that sticks to the original teachings. They all give themselves card blanch to pick up where the last guy left off. Placement marriage, one man rule, the banning of the color red, the dissolution of the Relief Society, not attempting to convert the public, etc. were all added after John Taylor and are no more true to the original doctrine that the plethora of revisions made to the doctrines by the mainstream LDS. The only way to have a pure fundamentalist faith is to declare that the keys died with John Taylor, and then not make a single additional rule or revelation. As far as I know, such a movement does not exist as an organized entity.

  268. National Geographic’s program on the Polygamists is really interesting. Do you folks see it as realistic?

  269. Well said, Anon 9:33!

    But I have to say, from a fundamentalist standpoint, it would take pages to describe the differences, the dichotomy and the history thereof, that exist between priesthood authority and church authority. Over the FLDS pulpit it is metaphorically described as “father” priesthood and “mother” church. They are not one and the same.

    Guess which one has the “right to rule.”

    Indeed all the differences came after John Taylor and the manifesto at which point continuing the practice of “fundamental” doctrine – and specifically, plural marriage – went underground and that’s when FLDS was born. (The term FLDS wasn’t used until sometime later… around 2000?… I don’t recall exactly when. Before that we were referred to as “fundamentalists” and self described ourselves as being part of “the work” or “the group.”)

    All those things you mention fall under “church” rule and practice. “Mother” left “father” claiming the chair at the head of the table along with the right to rule.

    But as I said, nothing, nothing, nothing that has taken place since WSJ started wedging his influence back in the late ’70s can possibly be categorized as true fundamentalist Mormonism. That ended once the one-man rule was set forth. Current FLDS is WSJ’s deliberate bastardization of the original to aggrandize his singular criminal if not insane mindset. That story would require a very long book and a great deal of deep throat information. I wonder if there are many of us left who can speak to that.

    On the other hand, if I understand correctly and can speculate, William E. Timpson’s growing little group is attempting to foster the same teachings post John Taylor up to the one-man rule split.

  270. Then why wouldn’t they simply join the already established C-Park? Pride?

  271. I don’t think we can blame it on pride alone.

    Myriad schisms abound, as they have for generations. FLDS is just one of the largest of them all within Mormondom. Still, each claims their right to rule and each has their own “proof” and/or justification.

    Such is the nature of all religions and all their gods, eh? It all comes down to what’s in the eye and the mind of the believer.

  272. Anybody heard anything else about WSJ’s new rambling revelation? This thing about Mt.Olympus destroying SLC & creating a new lake,I heard things similar to this back in the 80’s, Albany,NY taking fire plus an earthquake is in the Doctrine & Covenants,so WSJ steals things/quotes from other sources………..”you can’t fix stupid”,,,,other-Anon

  273. I like” Native American,American Indian,Lamanite peoples”,since they were here on this continent long before my ancestors migrated to this here……..other-Anon

  274. Here’s the revelation other-anon;

  275. I don’t think William E.Timpson/Jessop (WEJ) will ever join C-Park’s group,because both WEJ & “John Timpson ,C-Park’s prophet”are HALF BROTHERS,probably a lot of SIBLING RIVALRY between both of them….other-Anon

  276. Sibling rivalry? That’s laughable. Where do you people come up with this?

  277. Sibling rivalry makes perfect sense. Just because William E.’s mother took him away when his father left doesn’t make him any less a Timpson regardless of what his last name is now.


  279. Yes, a Timpson by any other name is still the same.

  280. FYI I will be reporting to you live on this blog from the annual Safety Net (Not) Conference tomorrow.

  281. warren’s ‘revelations’ are declining in quality. gotta be tough coming up with new ways to threaten people without any satisfaction.

    well, wish me luck with the Flame Order as I live near Albany (I assume he meant NY and not GA, although perhaps best to smite both just in case). I’ll be extra careful grilling out this weekend.

  282. Not True.. They all sleep on cots now 🙂

  283. Just got reports from a source that the FLDS are out and about shopping at all the stores in St George like never before, as if nothing happened… maybe even buying more stuff since the store back in the crick shuttered up.

  284. And the got “fed up” with that bean diet and its pesky side effects.


  285. Yo, Stamp, think maybe Warren got wind of pesky little bean diet -caused disturbances? (whilst the kiddies were supposed to be meekly absorbing his mind-numbing taped dronings? ) (Kinda hard to pay homage and keep a straight, sweet face and everything, while yer plumbing won’t behave, eh what, guvnah?) Think maybe Lord WSJ finally altered the main flds mantra from “Keep Sweet” to “Keep the Bean-o Handy?” I mean, if laughter causes the soul to leak out, (or whatever it does, in WSJ’s fevered imagination,) then how in the world could they have survived even one day on this legume allowance, and keep from affronting WSJ’s sense of holiness, pray tell? Was the god squad reporting back to Der Profit exactly how little Johnny and dainty Sarah were braaaaapping ON PURPOSE?

  286. Live from the Safety Net Conference:

    Yesterday a worker was doing a home visit in Colorado City when a crying 11 year old knocked on the door and asked the mom if he could live there because his mom just kicked him out and said she was no longer his mother and that he was the property of the priesthood.

  287. TC, that is soo sad. brakes my heart. His Mother needs to be in jail.

  288. Sad indeed, and in Idaho it’s a crime called Felony Injury to a Child. Roger Hoole (practically a saint) told me there’s nothing they can do if a kid won’t testify – but this time there was an outside witness. Come on! Last year in Utah they did make it a crime to force someone to abandon their child (progress I guess) but in most cases how could that possibly be enforced?

  289. That is just sad TC. Its like some one else is living my life all over again.

  290. I wasn’t quite kicked out of the house but I was pretty much kicked out of the family. I was 10 when I got told I was no longer my mothers son. Because I am like my mother in more ways than 1 I fired right back and told her she isn’t my mother any more and I wouldn’t let her forget it to her dying breath.

  291. Wow OO, how awful.

  292. I wish that some one in authority could start doing something for the children in Colorado City/Hildale.

  293. It was awful at the time, but in the end it worked out pretty darn good for me. I’m happy my mother isn’t part of my life. She even got told to repent from afar and I still have nothing to do with her and I never intend to.

  294. Heard that aunt Sarah Johnson passed, anyone have details. btw she is John Y Barlow’s daughter who was married to Leroy S. Johnson.

  295. Gal Gal, thanks. You gave me a most understandable answer to my question–in particular, the joke by the Jew to the mormons was just what I was looking for. I have been researching FLDs for some time now but the “is a Jew a Jew or a Gentile” question has not been addressed in any of my readings. I wanted to understand what an FLDS trained person would say in response to a Jew who became incensed at being referred to as a Gentile.

    I will continue to research; I have read 11 books on FLDS so far not to mention numberous web sites, Youtube videos, and this blog. I also have established a correspondence with a former FLDS woman who wrote a book about her experiences. Since I am writing a novel, I am efforting to get as much background as possible. But, I have found a lot of gaps in the information. For example, I have found very little reference to the daily lives of old people, post-menopausal women, and the disabled. Where/how do people with Alzheimer’s live? What happens to people with Downs syndrome when they get older and harder to handle? Do they marry? And if not, then doesn’t that make them condemned from birth? What is life like for women who are still young and vital but can no longer bear children? If I understand the FLDS teachings, a woman’s purpose is to (have sex and) give birth. Any input you guys could give me on these areas of inquiry would be much appreciated.

    Third cousin you are right about Jewism being both a culture, religion, and entnicity all at once. For example, enthnicly, someone can be a Jew but religiously, they could be a Christian. Sometimes, I get fervent Christians upset when I remind them that Jesus was a practicing Jew as were Mary and Joseph and the desciples. I am a believer of Christ but that doens’t make me willing to rewrite historical fact to somehow make Jesus Christ less Jewish than he was.

    Several years ago, Time magazine came out with an issue that ireported that DNA and anthropoligical research found that IF there was an actual Adam and Eve, they likely came from Africa. Did the FLDs have a response to that?

    As a non-FLDS but an amateur Theologian, I have become convinced that Jesus was married to Mary Magedline. We know a lot about the cultural mores at the time of Jesus and among the most compelling evidence is that Mary was allowed to go to Jesus’ body–a privilage only afforded to wives and blood family at that time. In my 30 years of research, I have found no information that indicated Jesus was polygamous but I am interested in looking at whatever evidence anyone can provide that points to that.

    Thanks everyone for your thoughtful input and stellar discussions. This is the BEST FLDS blog I have found.

  296. TC, thanks for providing the link to WJ’s document that he called a revelation. (Wasn’t I surprised to find that “God” has such terrible grammar; some passages are so poorly constructed that they make no sense what-so-ever.) But, aren’t portions of this in conflict with FLDS teachings? For example, #26 says ” Now do full repenting, so I, God, can spare all honest in heart. Amen.” My understanding is that FLDS teaches that only FLDS members, born to other FLDS members, will be spared; that the rest of us “Babylonians” have been condemned since birth. So why then, does this document encourage world-wide repenting for salvation? Am I missing something?

  297. Ooops – no idea why but I showed up as an anon in my posts 06/07/2013 8:27pm and 06/08/2013 10:00am.

  298. Anon, my info shows Sarah was married to Uncle Roy, but I have no further info. Which of John Yeates Barlow’s wives was her mom?

  299. I have heard that her family was turned away from her funeral, including some people who were not kicked out.

  300. Utterly unconscionable. But I still can’t find anything – not even a death certificate. Sorry, I’ll keep looking.

  301. Check out the last three posts on texaspolygamyblogspot:

  302. Can anyone tell me about or point me to information on the origin of wearing holy undergarments? So far, I haven’t been able to determine how the practice started.

  303. MY answer to OO about sibling rivalry between William E.Jessop & John Timpson: both of them believe they hold the keys of the Priesthood,so neither thinks highly of each other,both believe the other one of is a FALSE PROPHET,,,,,IMO both only want money,converts,& women or girls to marry off to their members,it’s all for power/control,manipulation,control of money(tithing) & over people’s lives,so to me why follow them? I use my brain & don’t get involved with them or WSJ’s people since most think I’m am evil or apostate ……….Can’t Fix Stupid……..other-Anon

  304. Can anyone tell me about or point me to information on the origin of wearing holy undergarments? So far, I haven’t been able to determine how the practice started.

    kjw said this on June 13, 2013 at 3:04 PM

    Try this link from LDS church:

    Think you will find your answer at above link, lots of reading. Note above represents the viewpoint of the LDS Church which is in direct opposition to many FLDS views.

  305. Here’s a website kjw might find of interest:

    This website is attempting to publish all know writings of Mormonism founder Joseph Smith.

  306. Some pretty cool pictures of where I went to school on sltrib.

  307. The most objective analysis of the criticisms:

  308. OO here’s the link for the story in the SLTrib:

    One thing the article doesn’t tell the who the current property owners are.

  309. I never knew who ended up owning it. Or the houses of all of Rulon’s sons that lived around that area.

  310. Anybody heard anything new about State of Texas acquiring YFZ Ranch & whats going to be done with it ??other-Anon

  311. Last I heard there was still someone they needed to serve. They served Isaac Jeffs, I think, but there is still someone else. I don’t know what they intend to do. It might make a nice hunting reserve. Wasn’t that what Warren and Co. said it was going to be?


  313. Phase 2,852 of ‘Answer them nothing…’. It’s worked so well before….right??

  314. IRT to Rulon’s old home and Alta Academy, its a bank repo now and its unusual that cities allow properties to become run down eyesores. They will probably start lawn mows etc but it seems it was waaay overpriced.

    Who thought too much of themselves?

  315. The Jeffs’ Little Cottonwood Canyon compound/Alta Academy was sold when they moved to the Creek. The property was a non-profit for awhile and family members of patients undergoing an organ transplant in SLC area hospitals could stay there – kind of like a Ronald McDonald house. A few years ago, a developer tried to build a housing subdivision on the land, but the EPA found toxic waste in the dirt and it never happened.

    Lurker Anon

  316. I personally very much like the name “Lurker Anon.”

  317. I very much like the name “Lurker Anon.” It’s excellent.

  318. Well as we have seen by exposure of the NSA, lurking is being followed by Big Brother.

  319. Warren’s latest revelation. Most have been a bad day for him today with the DOMA and Prop 8 rulings from the Supreme Court along with the filibuster last night that stopped SB5.

    Also, more news to brighten Warren’s drab day. Judge Walther has announced that she is running for the Court of Criminal Appeals!!!

  320. Can anyone address the lives of women when they can no longer bear children? According to BOM, they no longer have an earthly function or purpose right? How does that play out in their daily lives? Also, I understand the elderly men continue to marry, spawn children, and be cared for by their wives but what of elderly women? In reading over 20 non-fiction books regarding FLDS, I have only encountered two (very brief) references to elderly women. What happens with old ladies?

  321. Another rambling incoherent revelation from WSJ…..can’t fix stupid….LOL,,,,other-Anon

  322. Jim Harmston of the TLC is dead.

  323. RE: Harmson

  324. Are you kidding me? Harmston and Joseph Smith died on the same date? The TLC is going to have a field day. What’s left of them anyway.

  325. I had not seen this 04/11/2012 Canadian press treatment of Winston Blackmore. It’s actually worth the watch. Particularly pay attention to his body language near the end where he is queried about underage brides.

  326. Previously I asked if FLDS members consider themselves Jewish. Since then, I found a pro-FLDS website that referred to an underage bride as an “Israelite girl” indicting some notion of Jewish heritage. Meanwhile, the names such as Barlow, Smith, Aldred are of English origin and Nielson is Nordic. So how then do they explain their ancestors being “chosen” from all over Europe?

  327. “Israelite” isn’t synonymous with “Jewish.” “Isrealites” are all those descended from Jacob (aka, Israel). Can’t speak specifically for the FLDS, but most mainstream Mormons would consider Northern Europeans to be descendants of Jacob through the tribe of Joseph, while Jews are descended from Judah.

    More specifically, Northern Europeans tend to be descended from Joseph through his son, Ephraim. In Mormon belief, Native Americans would be descended from Joseph through his son Manassah (sp?).

  328. Earlier on this thread there was a discussion on LDS/FLDS patriarchal blessings and how all LDS and FLDS are assigned to one of the 12 tribes of Israel(Jacob’s sons) by either direct linage or by adoption. The only tribes that are considered Jews are the tribe of Judah and part of the tribe of Benjamin. At least that is my understanding.

  329. Yesterday I drove by the old Reliance Appliance location.It’s been gone for years now and a Walgreens was put up in its place.I’ve been tempted to stop there and ask one of the clerks if they ever have experienced any paranormal sightings there.I can still see where Mark used to sit and Lillian and the kids would be running around working and waiting on customers.Back then there wasn’t any websites like this to help out those that needed information.It has been invaluable in getting the word out to those that are trapped in it.

  330. The Houtston site. I’ve always wondered (as have many others) whether Lillian really committed suicide or was murdered. Hopefully their child is still okay.

  331. I have a question, as a long time reader of this blog: Are the Margret Jessop mentioned in Carolyn’s book as an older daughter of Merril, and the Maggie Jessop who wrote the “Hello America” manifesto after the Texas raid the same person? If so, was Fonetta or Ruth (1st and 2nd wives of Merrill) her mother?

  332. I watched the video on Winston B and Bountiful, BC posted above. I am always amused, if that is the right word to use, when I hear people who call themselves mormon or fund. mormon, singing songs in their services which were taken straight out of Christian hymnals. Jos. Smith and B Young both railed angrily against the churches of their time, yet so many ideas stuffed into mormonism have been ripped straight from Christian practices. Big chunks of the King James Bible were taken straight off the page and blended in with Smith’s flights of fancy (with the help of some of his friends, new research seems to show pretty clearly.) (But of course, all the stuff about incest in the Old Testament, and marriage standards in the New Testament, such as being the husband of one wife if you want to be a church leader, are ignored. )
    It makes me sick that these women are often full sisters and are both having children with the very same man year after year. I am absolutely astonished that these people see themselves as righteous, devout, and old-fashioned, yet are actually doing some of the most immoral things as the cornerstone of their “holy” lifestyle. On the surface it looks like a healthy life for these people. In actuality there is incest, slave labor, physical danger to youngsters, (if not easily provable serious emotional damage) and plenty of lying going on in full view every single day to perpetuate this situation. The isolation helps big-time to protect these kinds of groups. I absolutely do not believe they could get away with this garbage in an easier-to-police area.
    I also found it laughable that Winston mentioned his three 18 year old boys that have to “soon make a decision to get out of dad’s place,” when I have heard that Winston himself actually lives at his mother’s house after all these years! He doesn’t even live in any of the houses where the women and children are. What a sickening, hypocritical, creepy jerk! He’s still just being taken care of by Mommy like a little boy, then he goes around and impregnates whatever women he feels like day after day, and makes sure almost no other adult males can stay on “his” commune. What rot!
    I shook my head several times watching this video. Winston is such a twerp. What a “good old boy ” he is. I noted that he did not try to court the beautiful reporter. (At least, not on videotape.) I remember a graduate student a few years ago telling how he proposed to her before she wound up her few weeks there at Bountiful with her research for a paper. He’s just a regular dude taking advantage of the situation he was born into. Lots of beautiful land that is set far away from the towns of most decent people. Lots of women who think they have to do this kind of thing for God. The kitchen work alone is incredible, let alone all the childcare. I was shaking my head at the very young boys driving the equipment. There is so much wrong going on up there. It’s a shame these women just will not see what they are doing. If they would stop it, none of this stuff would take place anymore. It’s the ignorance of the women driving it all. It will never stop as long as there are women that will put up with this craziness.

  333. Of interest, an article that mentions the influences that created Harmston and the his polygamist group in Manti, UT.

    “Harmston claims to have received the keys
    of the kingdom by direct revelation—in Harmston’s case, a
    visitation by Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Moses. Also like
    Mitchell, Harmston has embraced plural marriage and has
    been accused of preying on teenaged girls.”

    Read entire article, explain much as to origins of independent polygamists. Page 39 on Harmston & Manti group.

  334. A Texan … this explains the trampoline that I saw in a photo of FLDS children. I didn’t understand how children couldn’t have toys, but could jump on a trampoline (assuming the picture is recent.) So an odd theory held by many polygamists which advocates jumping on trampolines for health reasons may have allowed their continued use. The weird, wacky world of the FLDS. Poor children.

  335. I’ll be traveling through Bountiful and Creston BC in the next couple of days. I’ll let you all know what I see.

  336. GalGal, I so appreciate your thoughtful answers to my questions. Your response prompted me to research the 12 tribes and the meaning of the term “Israelite”. Given my findings I have to concede that ithe Israelite/Jew/Gentile issue in Mormonim is complicated and confusing when set beside conventional understanding. I may just have to abandon that particular sub theme.

    Meanwhile, I just finished “Answer Them Nothing” by Debra Weyermann and in it, she was very complimentary of this specific website, crediting it with offering some of the most honest and valuable information about FLDS culture. I couldn’t agree more. (And for providing sound scholarly arguments for many of the holes in LDS doctrine, Mormon Think is top notch too).

  337. Regarding the Mormon/Jew/Israelite question, I found the following in My Kingdom Come: The Mormon Quest for Godhood (Decker, 2007. pp 109).

    “Quoting Ex Mormon Temple worker, Chuck Sackett:

    ‘Mormons believe that they are the only true Jews on Earth today. They also believe they come from the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, and that they have the true blood of Israel. Mormon males are ordained into what they believe are both the Leviticus and Melchizedek priesthoods. They believe that when they are baptized, their blood actually changes from Gentile blood into the blood of Israel.”

  338. We need a concise, well constructed link to the LDS bloodline beliefs.

  339. @mom: When you thoroughly understand the captivation, grip, and tyranny of mind control, there is nothing surprising or mysterious about their lifestyle nor their choice to live it. We are all limited by our own life experience and lack of understanding because we all live under the trappings of our own versions of mind control. It’s everywhere… the FLDS version is simply more vicious and mind-boggling to the uninitiated.

    FLDS Escapee

  340. Totally agree Escapee.

  341. Speaking of bloodlines found this on the LDS church website:

    “Declaration of Lineage

    A patriarchal blessing includes a declaration of lineage, stating that the person is of the house of Israel—a descendant of Abraham, belonging to a specific tribe of Jacob. Many Latter-day Saints are of the tribe of Ephraim, the tribe given the primary responsibility to lead the latter-day work of the Lord.

    Because each of us has many bloodlines running in us, two members of the same family may be declared as being of different tribes in Israel.

    It does not matter if a person’s lineage in the house of Israel is through bloodlines or by adoption. Church members are counted as a descendant of Abraham and an heir to all the promises and blessings contained in the Abrahamic covenant (see Abrahamic Covenant).

  342. Here’s more from LDS church website on subject of bloodlines etc:

    “The Abrahamic covenant blesses those who are not of Abraham’s lineage in a very direct way. The house of Israel is the family of the Lord’s Saints. According to the scriptures, those who accept the gospel and join in the Abrahamic covenant become members of the family of Israel, even if they are not Abraham’s literal descendants. The Lord taught Abraham concerning the nations of the earth who would not be his physical offspring:”

    Above from long article, explains where the LDS see themselves as part of Israel by adoption.

  343. I suspect that the FLDS view point is vastly different from the LDS church teachings IMO.

    Here’s a position paper from the Southern Baptist Church on subject of wither one is member Abraham’s linage by family or belief in Christ aka adoption.

    From article:

    “Our reading maintains
    that Christ takes center stage as the promised “seed”
    in both 3:16 and 19. The family of faith comes into
    clear view in 3:29 only through Christ as the promised singular “seed” of Abraham.”

    So it appears that the SBC takes the view that all who accept Christ are the seed of Abraham.

    IMO it would appear that the LDS are not the only church dealing with issue of linage of Abraham.

  344. A Texan: I enjoyed the article on the SBC view of the Abrahamic covenants and how it applies to their members. INO, your information on the LDS patriarchal blessings and the tribes of Israel is correct and is consistent with current LDS practices.

  345. Here’s a news story plans by FLDS to get every woman & girl pregnant over age of 12.

    Strange and stranger yet IMO.

  346. If this turns out to be true, at least it narrows down the suspects if/when underage girls become pregnant. Warren is just crazy enough to rescind his ‘stop sex’ order and issue a new ‘refill the flock’ order. I just hope it isn’t true.

  347. Warren established 15 “special” men to do all the breeding. Guessing men were not taking their wives/daughters in for service without the decree so now Warren is forcing it. I am not surprised by the 12 year old age. Warren still doesn’t believe man’s law trumps God’s law. But, I will be surprised if any underage girls are left in the creek and not in hiding somewhere so their pregnancies are not discovered. When the bus took off with kids last year I suspect that is when the daughters left.

  348. I agree that WSJ might do better among the general pop but I do think he would be murdered – frankly, not good for anyone. However, I cannot understand how orchestrating sex felonies from a jail phone is not grounds for revoking his phone privileges. I can only hope law enforcement has something else in mind that we are not privy to. I know what WSJ’s right are, but how can they go on without preventing these anticipated child rapes?

  349. I just wish there was a way to determine the validity of this story. This is one that cannot be messed with. If this is going to happen, something needs to stop it NOW. Where is the information being leaked? Is it a trustworthy source? I guess these are all questions you’re all asking too.

  350. How do we know WSJ & group aren’t leaking it out? His group would do anything to say they are going to replenish/repopulate his group,even leak it out in an underhanded way!!..other-Anon

  351. In the comments section of the news article that A Texan shared [kutv 7/15/13] are 2 men, both claiming to have ‘inside’ info. Kyle, says it’s all FALSE! and Joe says it’s all TRUE! So, who does one believe? I guess if/when prenant bellies start to appear, then the truth will be known.

  352. Here’s more on Warren Jeffs from a Utah newspaper:,d.aWM

    Strong worded editorial piece.

  353. Seriously people. We haven’t had a new thread in almost four months, and I’m in Canada mostly restricted to my hand-held.

  354. Federal Raid imminent :

    Evacuate immediately.


  355. Continue your discussion on General Discussion #83

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