General Discussion #77 – The Wait for the Rulings

~ by FLDS TEXAS on June 10, 2012.

352 Responses to “General Discussion #77 – The Wait for the Rulings”

  1. Thanks for the new thread.
    Subscribed and lurking.

  2. Here is an article on sex abuse within the orthodox Jewish community
    I remember that at some point a discussion came up along the lines of, The Amish do it, the Jews do it, so why can the FLDS do it? or maybe it was a discussion of cultural structural problems that lead to abuse.

  3. heard there was a big walk-out last weekend. supposedly nearly 800 people walked out of church on sunday at the lsj meetinghouse.

  4. The Springdale UT PD is in a heap of trouble. Springdale is Hildales neighbour to the north and seems to have taken notes on bleeding the beast.

    It’s kinda funny. Last month the town was elevated as the beacon of liberal progress on the trib boards for passing a bill to eliminate bias towards the LGBT community. Now they are proclaimed as a bunch of racist Nazis. Who knows what next month will have in store.

  5. well, looks like Jake Barlow and David Darger are still going to have to face the music.

  6. More murder and madness…under the guise of religion.

    A North Carolina man pleaded guilty to murdering both a 28-year-old woman and a 4-year-old child he reportedly believed was gay.
    The 27-year-old Moses is also allegedly the leader of radical religious sect, whose members comprised a number of women and children who called him “Lord.” Moses reportedly lived together with at least three of those women, who counted themselves as his “wives,” and nine children and in a one-bedroom Durham home. Moses is the biological father of all the children, except for Jadon. Moses reportedly feared that Jadon might be gay because the boy’s father had left his mother Vania Sisk, who was one of Moses’ “wives.” …and because…he witnessed Jadon hitting the backside of another young boy.

    The photo of this beautiful little boy will make you cry….He and his mother were then wrapped in plastic, tossed out like trash, and buried in the yard of Moses’ mother’s house.

  7. Thanks for the articles everyone. Very interesting.

    Anon 12:57 – can you tell us anything more about a mass walk-out at Sunday meeting in Short Creek?

  8. Debra Weyerman has an excellent article on the UT AZ polygamists in this month’s High Country News – I just got home from Utah for a funeral and saw extremely familiar mugshots splayed out over our kitchen counter. We get the magazine regularly. Thank you Debra! I’m posting the link but I think if you don’t subscribe it won’t be fully available right away.

  9. If you subscribe, you’ll note that they screwed up the credits on the mugshots. But we don’t care, because we all know who they are…

  10. For all who this means something to, there were at least 9 varieties of jello served up today at the funeral in Woods Cross. If you need reminding, the Atlantic weighed in quite poetically on the deep mormon affection for jello a couple years ago: Call it comic relief.

  11. TC: I think the jello tthing is a Utah issue. Don’t see much jello at the midwest LDS functions I attend. When visiting wife’s relatives in Utah, we were served jello with shredded carrots in it. Really grossed me out.

  12. I’ve heard from a couple of directions is was because only a few men (15 or 20 or so) would do all the breeding of the worthy women. Already things are upside down where the children are in higher churches than the parents and aren’t allowed to tell the parents what they are being taught. If this is true, it is wrong to prey on naive innocent girls and put them in holier churches than their parents.

  13. Chemist – lucky you. I liked jello salads as a kid but I can’t bear them now. You wouldn’t believe the kind of stuff that gets put in them. 🙂

  14. It’s been many years now without jello anything going into my digestive tract. All-time grossest one for me had cottage cheese in it (among other things). I actually enjoyed the shredded carrot one with crushed pineapple. But DO NOT put raisins in it too. Oh! that’s nasty. 😉

  15. There were mormon funeral potatoes at the funeral too, so that made up for all the jello. The question is whether they are called that because it’s a funeral or because it might cause your funeral.

  16. HAH – when I was living in Utah I took my Mother’s (southern baptist) recipe for scalloped potatoes to a company pot luck lunch. I had several say to me – “I didn’t’ know you were Mormon.” When I looked puzzled they said, “You brought funeral potatoes.” I had to ask why they called them that when it was a company lunch. they said, “because that is what they are.”

    We had a lot of jello in the south when I was growing up. Not much of it around here now either.

    As for the walk out at the church – I am very glad they walked out! It is a good sign that they are thinking and not blindly going along. – or that the requests are too crazy even for them.

  17. Selective breeding program – wonder if Jeffs is into reading cattle management these days

  18. heard there was a big walk-out last weekend. supposedly nearly 800 people walked out of church on sunday at the lsj meetinghouse.

    Anonymous said this on June 11, 2012 at 12:57 PM

    do you know how many total were there? 800 out of how many? Was it more than half? less than half? just curious

  19. “I’ve heard from a couple of directions is was because only a few men (15 or 20 or so) would do all the breeding of the worthy women. …”

    You can’t make this stuff up! The next thing will be that only consecrated turkey basters can be involved.

    Just a shame to imagine all the chaos and its effects on everybody in Short Creek, especially the kids. Maybe a critical mass will finally see the dictatorship for what it is.

  20. Egad. You guys are giving me Jell-o flashbacks from central Utah family reunions of yesteryear. Speaking of which, I will be attending one of those centered around Pioneer Day this year. I think I’ll stick with the real Navajo tacos, though. Yum.

  21. sorry me on Jeffs prison reading of cattle breeding texts was

    never did like jello in any form whatever –
    wait not true we used to use as props for “brains” to make people stick their hands in in our homemade scarey houses

  22. Limiting the number of sperm donors to 15-20 men will only increase the probability of genetic based birth defects. Warren has missed the lessons to be learned from the fumarase deficiency amongst the flds.

  23. chemist: “Limiting the number of sperm donors to 15-20 men will only increase the probability of genetic based birth defects.”

    This is why the FLDS has always been doomed to fail.

    I have often thought about how I would combat the inbreeding problem as well as the male: female ratio problem if I were in Jeffs place. I think I have hammered out a pretty good plan.

    1) I would convert the SD compound or the CO compound into an all girls boarding school; preventing the underage girls from being molested by their fathers, brothers and cousins, etc.

    2) I would “bribe” any of age C-Park woman who was not LEGALLY married to join our faith, which I would make sure was at least as liberal as theirs. As for the nature of the bribe:

    a) They could choose any (adult) husband they want.
    b) They would receive a new house to raise their family in.

    3) I would send the boys to the public schools in Washington County (UT), Iron County(UT), Mesquite (NV) and El Cap with the understanding that if they ever want to live the principal, their first wife must come from the Mormon believing gentile population.

    a) This would bring a much needed influx of DNA into the community.
    b) Many of the boys in their efforts would wind up marrying their way out of the church instead of marrying a girl into the church. Either way, it helps the ratio.
    c) I would make an exception for the top students, encouraging them to get an education. (The top male student and the top female student in each graduating class would be married to each other and receive college scholarships to SUU from the priesthood.) I would also make an exception for any male who successfully puts himself through college on his own.

    4) Any (single) male apostate that wanted to earn their way back into the group would be required to first marry a Mormon believing girl from the gentile population who was willing to join the faith.

    5) Any female apostate willing to come back would get the same bribe as the C-Park women.

    I apologize if any of this strikes a nerve with anyone, but how else could you really do it?

    PS: I know, I know. I need to find a hobby. hahaha.

  24. Oh, I forgot, 1 more thing. I would place a (Non-preemptive) wife cap at 3: a Blonde, a Brunette and a Redhead. Any more than that is just downright greedy.



  25. *non-retroactive, not non preemptive. sorry.

  26. Here’s the latest revelations of absurdity from Warren Jeffs:

    Seems ole Warren is really getting batty IMO, remember the “bat boy” article from a few years back.

  27. “I’ve heard from a couple of directions is was because only a few men (15 or 20 or so) would do all the breeding of the worthy women. …”
    So, I take it the ‘no sex’ rule is no longer in effect? Or is this all still just setting up the list of worthy ‘bulls’ for calving season?

  28. Good luck, Anon 8:01 – just yesterday at a funeral in Utah my great aunt said she had to go to california back in the day to meet a husband just so she wouldn’t accidentally marry a cousin. You probably can’t possibly imagine how true that is. Unless you’re my cousin.

  29. This story on sexual predator behavior in grooming the victim made me think of how the whole structure of the FLDS is set up to groom female children: the I’m special vehicle by which the spirits arrive in this world; to the even more special I’m the link between the prophet and the celestial kingdom where he gets his prophetic visions when he is sperm donating into me…

  30. potato au gratin are not the same as funeral potatoes. That’s like saying that eating cream of potato soup out of the can is the same as having vichyssoise.

  31. My parent’s recipe card box easily had 15 recipes for jello. And they were Catholic.

    The only way I like gelatin is a clear aspic over a poached salmon or the French dish of chicken in it’s own gelatin. Both are achievable without packaged gelatin, go back to the middle ages and are quite good on a buffet table or on a hot summer evening.

  32. Betty, maybe YOUR funeral potatoes are better than my families scalloped potatoes (white sauce not au gratin sauce). But, the funeral potatoes in Utah I tried a few times came with corn flakes on top so I was not very impressed.

  33. That’s kind of my point, Watergirl, I think you are interpreting my comment backwards. I think anything involving all pre-processed ingredients like cream of something soup (funeral potatoes) is not going to be as good as something made from scratch (my family’s au gratin involves real cream and potatoes that you cut up yourself). I would never put corn flakes or potato chips on top of a casserole. EVER.

  34. Or maybe I wrote them backwards…but in any event. YUCK to funeral potatoes.

  35. I thought there was a rule that only I get to talk about food here.

  36. where you been OO? we missed you and your words full of, full of , ummm – wisdom – yes that is what they are!

  37. I demoted myself to casual lurker.

  38. Funeral potatoes and jello varieties are the exception to the food rule Brad.

    Long time no talk!!! Where’ve you been? Down in CC applying to be one of the breeders?

  39. I did go to CC a few weeks ago. Was the first time in a long time. It was like going back in time. Same rundown houses with Fischer paint as the exterior finish. Same potholes in the paved roads. Same washboard dirt roads. Same dirty looks. Didn’t get hounded by the god squad this time though. I must not be important enough to worry about anymore.

    I didn’t know you could apply to be a breeder. I apperently I am not of good pedegree or I would have gotten an email or something right? Maybe my markings are just not good. Who knows.

  40. Good to see ya OO.

  41. i’m curious about this “15-20 breeders… with the most worthy women….” does that mean that the 15-20 will be going around breeding with other men’s wives? or, will the worthy women be removed from their current husband and reassigned a new breeder husband? just not sure how this could possibly work.

  42. Here’s another version of the Warren Jeffs revelation sent to a TV station in Salt Lake City,UT.

    Click to access Jeffs_Revelation_5_19_2012.pdf

    Same silly stuff, makes for a good laugh.

  43. Here’s Brent Hunsaker’s take on Warren’s latest revelation of the absurd:

    On a slow news day Warren provides the entertainment!

  44. The story I heard was that the 15 or so chosen “breeders” would be breeding with other men’s wives and then the unworthy men would be allowed to raise the children, i.e. foot the bill.

  45. So I guess that tormenting the women and teenage boys was too easy to be fun, so now they are moving on to tormenting most of the men?

  46. then those 15-20 men and the breeding women really will be like cattle. So then what – all the kids of that generation will be related to each other worse than now. Non breeder men are not pure enough to breed but pure enough to raise the super race? I doubt it. I bet the kids are shipped off to a compound like the YFZ kids were for some other Mother/Father to raise.

    If this doesn’t cause a mass exit then nothing will.

  47. At first though I thought that would be a hell of a job…..then I started thinking about it further.

    1. The person would be the father of possibly hundreds.

    2. Not all plyg women are attractive. There very well could be a paper bag expense in the future for these men.

    3. Doesn’t this shrink the gene pool even further?

  48. 4. STDs
    5. emotional problems
    6. fumarase deficiency
    7. potential increase in suicide rate

  49. 8. Fewer tithe payers since many men may walk out.

  50. I sense william jessops flock thickening in the future.

  51. As far as a paper bag expense, the unattractive females will never be considered worthy no matter how many meals they cook, no matter how dedicated they are to teaching school, or how many monolithic dresses they sew.

  52. 9. Just the sadness of it all…. Cold hearted, mindless breeding.

  53. How would this bizarre breeding plan even square with current doctrine? Would the ‘breeding males’ be sealed to the hordes of women but live with their ‘previous’ husbands? Seems like they’d have to be, since i assume even as crazy as things are, you’re not supposed to (officially) “bag” your neighbor’s wife or (or any women not sealed to you). Then what would the marriage totals look like for the ‘chosen ones’ (hundreds?) and could warren tolerate the idea of other men exceeding his standing record in that department?

  54. thanks HFalls for the laugh. I love your writing style. Not that the situation itself is funny. But, you are so right. nothing about it is part of the current doctrine. It is from BOW – Book of Warren – or – BOWTF doctrine.

  55. Here is an article linking Penn State, Catholic Church, Orthodox Rabbis, and FLDS together:

  56. Maybe they should have just one big townwide orgy and get it over with lol.

  57. 2. Not all plyg women are attractive. There very well could be a paper bag expense in the future for these men.

    Overlord Offtopic said this on June 14, 2012 at 11:17 AM


    This made me smile!!!

  58. Here is an article linking Penn State, Catholic Church, Orthodox Rabbis, and FLDS together:

    Anonymous said this on June 14, 2012 at 3:40 PM

    thanks for posting. good article. Nails Shurtliff to the wall!

  59. Hello Folks. I haven’t been here for awhile, but come here for expert advice. I was off from writing SW blog for awhile, and not back in. I have been doing a genealogy on all of the Browns, Robyn is the hardest. However, her mother, Alice Fullmer is my question. How is she related or is she to the David Fullmer that knew Joseph Smith, and how connected is her family in the AUB? There’s some connection this newbie can’t put together. Thank you!

  60. Live from the Safety Net: “polygamy is empowering to women.”

  61. Are you at the safety net conference, TC? I am here as well.

  62. “We must be open to decriminalization.”

  63. Yep, I’m here, I’ll look for you.

  64. I am wearing a blue and black hat and t shirt.

  65. “Decriminalization is the true safety net.”

  66. “Consenting adults is almost always the case.”

  67. Please tell the “consenting adults” person to eat sh*t for me. They obviously have their heads in the sand based on the evidence presented in Texas. Also, just because someone is 18 it doesn’t make them a “consenting adult”. If they have never been taught anything different and believe that they will lose their salvation if they don’t do it, that’s not consenting.

  68. And my personal favorite “the moral and legal justifications for the polygamy ban are more in doubt than ever before.”

  69. 3C – this article blames Safety Net for child abuse – guess they have not yet read it:

  70. here is the comment – perhaps you can tell them this is what the world thinks of them:

    Likewise, Utah’s Attorney General, Mark Shurtleff, has a sorry record of failing to avidly pursue polygamists (who have routinely chosen girls as wives) in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (“FLDS”) and other fundamentalist sects. Instead of initiating prosecutions for polygamy, he set up a public committee of polygamists and members of his office to meet on a regular basis, thereby placing the state’s official imprimatur upon their felonious polygamist activities. (Anyone who thinks polygamy does not entail plucking wives from a pool of increasingly younger girls needs to do the math.)

  71. Oh, water girl, don’t be silly on that last comment – we just learned from the last conference presenter that the idea of male push-out in order to maintain young girl availability is “one of the biggest myths out there.”

  72. correlation proves causation

  73. If, in a group there are to be 3 wives for every man and the birth ratio of male to female is approximately one to one ( a ratio that has been fairly constant for a long time) there must be a surplus of males.
    There is no way around this numbers problem. Some men go without a wife or are pushed out.

  74. Chemist, Anon and Watergirl are right. You set them straight 3C!!!

  75. Or better yet, tell all the lawbreakers to move on down to Texas and we will see what Greg Abbott, a real Attorney General, thinks of their behavior.

  76. The Safety Net conference was very interesting and informative. I learned some things about attachment that I didn’t know before. Also, saw Helaman Barlow, the police officer, and one other FLDS guy. wasn’t expecting anyone from the FLDS to show up. that was interesting. Finally met Lindsay Whitehurst, as well.

  77. to polyissowrong22, I cant help with Robyn sorry, I do know that Ervil LeBaron had a follower by the last name of Sullivan who did some of his killing for him.
    Christine’s Father is Rex Clark Allred, son of Rulon Clarlk Allred and Myrtle Hoff Lloyd (Rulon first pural wife) When she married Rulon she was told “see to it that Rulon gets all the wives he has coming to him”
    Christine’s Mother is Ruthann Elizabeth LeBaron, duaghter of Floren Donald LeBaron and Anna Waltrout Mattern. Floren was brother to Ervil LeBaron. The murderer of Rulon Allred.

  78. PTX: “The story I heard was that the 15 or so chosen “breeders” would be breeding with other men’s wives and then the unworthy men would be allowed to raise the children, i.e. foot the bill.”

    So the women basically have two husbands now; one for time and one for eternity.
    WSJ has found a loophole that lets the women in on the bigamy.

  79. to polyissowrong22, Anna left Floren w/ her 2 children. She then married Owen Arthur Allred. He raised Ruthann. So Christine ended up with both a Grandfather as a prophet, and a Step-Grandfather/Great Uncle as a prophet. funny huh

  80. Interesting article from SLTrib on subject of young people who have left FLDS.

    From article: “They’re happy to be gone, but it’s a complicated happy,” Merkley said, speaking from her experience as a therapist for former FLDS teens.”

  81. saw Helaman Barlow, the police officer, and one other FLDS guy.

    yehaaablog said this on June 15, 2012 at 6:33 PM

    Did Helaman testify or was he there as an observer.

    BTW, wasn’t he named chief upon the removal of Jonathan Roundy?

  82. Helaman was just there as an observer. he sat in the back and talked with the other guy for the majority of the time, and was out of the room on breaks. I don’t know if he’s chief or not, but he is the longest serving member of the current police force, as far as I know.

  83. I think everyone attending would agree, hats off to the very young people who participated in the youth panel – I think that wasn’t easy for some of them.

  84. I am hoping that Ms. Whitehurst can post the actual survey questionnaire and instructions that went to the 90 FLDS youth (I am still traveling). Looking at the actual questions is key when listening to the summary of the findings.

  85. Stephen Powell gets 30 months:,0,6178773.story

  86. And here comes the Trib:

  87. I’m going to bed already. All riled up from my many different experiences today.

  88. Thanks to all who reported on the safety net conference.

  89. Is it a Safety Net or Surly Nuts?

  90. Stamp , I think you got the Nuts part right….LOL,,,,other-Anon

  91. Pollyissowrong,you might want to check into the Chynoweth family.Mark did some killing for Ervil with the help of Lillian,his wife.Lillian was Ervil’s daughter.

  92. posted about the Safety net conference and some of my thoughts on it. sorry about the rambling.

  93. I tried to respond on your blog, but as usual, wordpress hates me. Here’s what I wanted to say:

    I really liked your take on the conference and the fact that you too see the Dargers as “trying a little too hard”. If polygamy were really about consenting adults with no abuse, I\’m not sure I’d be against it, but one or two families living it that way to make money on books and television isn’t reality. In reality, religious polygamy is about control. Control of the entire family and when one person in the ”family” does something the head poobah doesn’t like, he or she is kicked to the curb and the rest are told to forget they knew the person. That isn’t reality. No person can turn their feelings on and off like that.

    Also, if polygamy is about consenting adults, why are Warren Jeffs and other of his followers in jail for having sex with underage girls? Apparently it isn’t all about consenting adults.

  94. I enjoyed meeting the Dargers and the Brown’s son (who apparently missed a family trip to Nauvoo just to apear on the panel), but as the conference drew to a close I couldn’t wait to get out of there as the cameras, power microphones, and false lights literally swooped in on the very meticulously made-up Dargers trying to catch every likely pre-rehearsed word they exchanged with the Brown son. I bolted the room so fast I didn’t even say goodbye to Yehaaa. It seemed very contrived. I’m not saying the Dargers didn’t exchange words with Brown earlier and off camera, because they did, but at the close of the conference it was all very slick and I felt like I was witnessing the mutual admiration society I imagine to take place on Dr. Phil. The cameras recorded the conference, and to his credit, Paul Murphy acknowledged that at the very beginning and assured us all that no one who had not signed a special waiver could be shown on screen no matter what. Us regular conference attendees were admonished in writing that recording devices of any kind were disallowed.

  95. As far as I can remember (I haven’t looked anything up), Lloyd Sullivan and his son and nephew (Don and Ron maybe) were unlikely midwest non-mormon converts of Ervil, and had no continuing contacts with the fundamentalist movement. Poor old Lloyd of course died (heart attack I think) just prior to testifying at Ervil’s U.S. trial, so his deposition was played to the jury. Although Lloyd was married and his children adults, I doubt there is any connection to Robyn Sullivan, who is technically not a Sullivan anyway. Set me straight if folks know differently. Robyn comes from my people in eastern Idaho. I won’t be publishing who her folks are – she has welcomed national television into her life but her ancestors might not.

  96. Wonder if the “lucky” male brreders are aware that they could be liable for child support for the children they sire. They could also be subject to criminal charges if any of the women they impregnate are underage. Does not sound like a dream assignment to me.

  97. Was Dan Wayman at the Safety Net conference?? other-Anon

  98. Chemist, what will happen is that on impregnation #29, the jealous witness will observe that the sire was lustful during the act and get him cast out so the jealous witness can start doing it. Then the cast out will be responsible once a few women get angry and leave and want child support. The church won’t support the children. It will be the job of the person they kicked out. There, let’s see if I can prophecy better than Warren.

  99. But remember, these pervs are in either Utah or Arizona. I haven’t seen much to make me hopeful of prosecution in either state. Send them down to Texas and we’ll talk!!!


    A story on the procreators. I wonder if some will be stationed at the various Places of Refuge like the YFZ and SD or if those women will be required to travel to get impregnated!!

  101. Here’s another article confirming above story:

    Sam Brower said: “These men are now breeding stock, essentially. And it’s their assignment to breed with the women in town.”

    IMO this is beginning of the end of FLDS, those who walked out will be out of FLDS as will their money. The FLDS will not be able to continue as in the past. The continued loss of members will cause the house of cards that is the FLDS to come crashing down.

    The scary part is what is left will be a small radical hardcore group that will do anything the profit says, even violence or Jim Jones type end game.

  102. A long time ago someone commented that their belief was that Jeffs lost faith as a teenager and that his end game was to destroy the FLDS – kind of a convoluted way of doing it but this last step is sheer genius…

  103. So the witness is there to document and send the report to Warren? Wonder if Naomi will come back as scribe. He likes the way she scribes. He will no doubt enjoy the new reports. Guess he was tired of hearing about crop rotation and how well behaved everyone is. what a sick puppy.

    It really is hell on earth to live this way. You have no brain waves left if you agree to this arrangement.

  104. If Jeffs plan was to destroy the FLDS and abuse as many people and children along the way than I would say

    1. He succeeded in spades


    2. He is paying for it with a life sentence – which is well deserved.

  105. If Issac Waller is correct and this is now a new preisthood calling then does that mean they will have to “do it” in a temple or other “holy” place like Warren did it? Does the church in the creek qualify since it is not a temple?

    So these 15 men and the women will get some sort of schedule of when their blessed ritual will be and they are expected to show up ready? If these guys can’t perform from the pressure then what – they are not worthy enough? Oh, correction to that – must be the women are not worthy enough –

    I am a logistics manager so I am just trying to figure out the logistics of it all. Scheduling and tracking database will be needed for sure. How many women are there of breeding age? Will they track their cycle to know when the optimal time is? Will they scheudule round the clock, back to back? Will there be a revolving door? If they don’t get pregnant will they get a different sire the next time around? So do the young girls not yet married qualify? Since there is still no marriage allowed how will they be included?

  106. anomymous 11:12 and 1:43 from watergirl.

  107. Are any of Warren’s wifes worthy? I mean out of 80 of them, and many so young – there must be some FLDS stud that can service that dormant stable.

    Or….. not.

  108. Question, when these worthy Stallions become burdened down under the labors of there ministry , who will be responsible for the purchase of the Viagra?

  109. “dormant stable.” Just spit ice tea on the keyboard, Chaps.

  110. Please remember that you are talking about girls who were victimized, and who are our family members. They are loved, prayed for, and deserve your respect. Save your diatribe for Warren and his ilk. Thank you… signed… a concerned auntie.

  111. Here’s the SLTribs take on the 15 men revelation:

    Appears Ms. Whitehurst thinks it’s hearsay at present.

  112. Speaking of newspapers, here’s the DNews version on 12 men revelation:

    Appears the SLC TV stations & D-News think it’s true.

  113. You’re right Janet. I apologize.

  114. It is amazing how much Sam Brower and Issac Wyler know….get some facts before you go running to the media!Oh i forgot whatever they say is

  115. Anon, I swear I don’t want to spread untruths – please, what are the facts?

  116. More from Channel 4. Brent Hunsaker says there was a “sexual bait and switch” going on where couples who wanted to have a child could apply to have one, but they had to perform the “ordinance” at a designated time and place, with witnesses. When they showed up to do it, they were told that the husband would not be the father.

  117. All this “ordinance” stuff seems to me like a way for Warren to justify what he did in the temple with all those girls… like up until now he was the only one with that priesthood “ordinance” – partaking in “heavenly sessions” or whatever he called it. Maybe he thinks if he claims he was commanded via special, official religious ordinance to do what he did, somehow he’ll have additional religious ground to be able to appeal his conviction on. Yeah right.

    Warren is psycho. This newest revelation is just further evidence. I sincerely hope and pray the remaining members see this craziness for what it is. I’m so sad for these people, especially the young ones with no education who feel like they couldn’t cut it in the outside world and stay purely based on fear of the unknown.

    Last thought… is Warren on the list of 15? Or perhaps on the incarcerated reserve list.. ???


  118. That is really, really sick and wrong! If it’s rumor, its a vicious and ugly rumor that someone with a very perverted mind started. If it’s fact, I can’t imagine any sane person accepting such a devilish decree! If this doesn’t open the minds of people in this society, nothing will. It is essentially genocide!

  119. Sam brower started it. Its just a rumor.
    – Flds insider

  120. Possible alternative explanation: Only 15 of the men in the group that met were deemed righteous enough to have sex with their wives, based on interviews, etc. The other men need to become more righteous before they can be like the 15. Who really knows what the real situation is, also the situation may be different for different flds couples. Any time a religious leader has this degree of control over what should be between a husband and his wife it is sick and wrong.

  121. Sam brower started it. Its just a rumor.
    – Flds insider

    Anonymous said this on June 20, 2012 at 11:30 AM

    were you at the meeting? Did folks walk out for another reason? Did no one walk out and that part is also not true? Hard to imagine Sam would put his reputation on the line just to start a rumor.

  122. they walked out cause they were told if they are not living up to their UO covenants, they need to get up and walk out.
    — flds insider

  123. they walked out cause they were told if they weren’t living upto their UO covenants, they needed to get up and leave. chemist’s explantion is mostly correct.
    — flds insider

  124. DMWT, Warren is out of appeal options, so he need no be on any list, reserve or not. He’s not ever getting out of Texas prisons.

    As for Sam Brower making up a rumor, I have known Sam for a long time and have never known him to make up anything. There is no need to since the FLDS are so bizarre that it’s tough to make anything up that would come close to the truth.

  125. The Eldorado Success is reporting that the YFZ tower that sat dormant for almost a year has been worked on. Pictures show a crane by the tower and it has grown.

    The also report that a band of light poles have been put around the rim of the amphitheater. When the lights are turned on they shine inward toward the center of the amphitheater.

    Maybe the pilot will put up some pictures soon.

  126. Since none of them are righteous it really sucks, no more sex for nobody.

    I mean, are people really going to use the Warren and Lyle’s standards of righteousness?

    How stupid would that be?

    Might as well follow Charlie Sheen – at least he makes sense when he’s not on crack!

  127. As dangerous as Warren Jeffs and his decrees could possibly be, seems like he should be denied any contact with the outside. Couldnt the prison system deny all phonecalls, etc. as a matter of public safety? Many of us worry that a Jim Jones thing could happen……

  128. And just how are things in Apple Valley? Does anyone have the details?

  129. I read the vote wasnt successful for disincorporation, that what you mean?

  130. Here’s the AP on the Apple Valley thing:

  131. Chaps and Third Cousin, I found what I was looking for concerning Apple Valley. Thanks

    Over the weekend, I read a story that was a feel good story. It made me feel good for days. It still makes me smile. I’ve told just about everyone I know and I’ve told people I don’t know.

    The story was at the Salt Lake Tribune. A story about a man named Hank Louis that is involved in a program that is imo genius.

    The program is called Design Build Bluff Here is the link to the site:
    Watch the videos
    Read the stories
    Don’t forget Hanks diary

    For over 8 years I’ve been following these Polygamy stories on line. Feeling frustrated because I can’t figure anything out and still wanting to do something, somehow to help. Searching for answers to questions that may never be answered.

    One thing I do know for certain is that the future is within our kids. Mine, yours, theirs…ours.

    What I keep seeing in this story and other stories with conflict is that as adults we are holding our kids back to a brighter future.

    I think Dan Fischer had/has a good plan to help the young.
    I also think Hank Lois has a great plan to help the young, the old and the inbetween. He is thinking outside the box.

    I want to help. But I don’t know what to do

  132. Very cool story on a great program, Walton. Thanks.


  134. Warren Jeffs chooses 15 to father future FLDS children, sources say

  135. Pilot posted more pics… Amphitheater has lights and concrete floor then they stopped to work on their ” Tower of Babel”

  136. Looked at the photos, strange indeed. Perhaps they changed their minds and are going to put the statue of perversion IE Warren Jeffs statue on the tower after all. The photos show the concrete portion of tower complete, no more rebar on top. because windows line tower in a spiral manner, there is most likely a spiral stair case inside like a light house. So tower could be for security purposes, with stairs to reach observation platform like the one that faces main entrance. Purpose not to watch the outside of compound, but like a guard tower to keep an eye on the inside.

    Another use might be as originally suspected, a base for a statue, with perhaps an area with railings to allow person to walk around statue. Railing would have lights designed to shine on statue at night.

    IMO based on what pilot’s photos show, guard tower to keep eye on the inmates of the compound. And yes calling a tower of babel is correct, based on Warrens revelations of absurdity.

  137. Here’s Warren’s latest revelations of absurdity, seems ole Warren thinks he’s now Secretary of State, Warren you’re not a diplomat, you’re not even a prophet dude.

    No mention of 15 fathers in this one, guess that one will come out later.

  138. I agree that it is a watch tower. I still think the statute will go in the amphitheater. The added lights show what the blue wires were for.

    Also, Lindsay just tweeted that the DOJ is filing a religious discrimination lawsuit against the twin towns.

  139. WInslow’s story on the discrimination thing:

  140. here is Lindsay’s:

  141. Here’s another SLC TV station on DOJ lawsuit:

    This could result in Feds shuting down Warren’s little goon squad AKA Colorado City/Hildale police. More good news.

  142. Hooray!!!!!!!!!! Oh joyous day!!!!!

  143. Now just waiting for that elusive RICO indictment.

  144. I know this doesn’t have to do with polygamy, but the Sandusky jury is out a now-adult foster/adopted son came forward about an hour ago. Sick.

  145. Attention FLDS Followers

    You still have a few weeks to decide what end of the stick to be on. We are praying for you. This was inevitable based on the volumes of evidence we received. Each one of you needs to search your hearts now.

  146. Attn: FLDS Followers

    You have turned your hearts from Love.
    You have abandoned your Children.
    You have turned against Family.
    You have Judged harshly and you will receive Such.
    You have denied God.
    You are Blind and Deaf Spiritually
    Your House is Dirty
    You have lost your City and Property.
    There will be no Peace for you until you REPENT
    Make TODAY a new day ….
    Pick up the Pieces and begin making apologies
    Your Life will begin again

  147. Here’s more on the Federal lawsuit, read the legal document stating the plaintiff is the United States of America.

    Also note that it is being handled out of Washington, D.C., rather than the local AZ & UT US Attorneys that normally work this type of case. Signatures at end of document indicate this is being handled as top priority.

  148. Here’s an opinion piece from an Arizona newspaper:

  149. And here’s what CNN has to say:

    Appears the feds are finally going to ball hardball with the FLDS goon cops, don’t think the FLDS realizes what about to steam roller “short creek”.

  150. Great news!! I applaud the DOJ’s actions.

  151. About time DOJ!!! Thanks for stepping up and joining the party

  152. kind of related

  153. A Texan:

    I agree with your comment that the flds do not know how they can be steam rolled by the feds. The feds have huge resources to throw at them. Perhaps the RICO charges will also come.

  154. Well the next thing we’re gonna hear about is Hell has frozen over! The FLDS enclaves still need disbanding and another round of sex abuses and scandals will ensue at each facility. Royal Canadian Mounties investigation into Bountiful and the sex trafficking to/for the United States is at a snails pace and no such investigation has been announced from the US side of the border. Pringle, Mancos, Eldorado and Pony Springs will all uncover evidences of continuing sex abuses and Canadian connections. What other enclaves have been formed and sequestered needs investigating.

  155. Hey Jim! Long time no see! Hope all is well.


    Maybe Warren’s writings from the CelloSteel Kingdom are paying off – they are finally writing back!

  156. The DOJ needs to knock heads with other Fed agencies and roll up a bunch of love notes for Warren – agree the RICO thing and the child sex slave thing ought to be coming down the pipe too.

    Give em both barrels!

  157. Sam Brower tweeted that process service has been accomplished in the federal lawsuit.

  158. Now the games begin. I hope we hear from some insiders about reactions in town.

  159. Interesting read. FYI, I’m the person who spoke at the Safety Net conference about decriminalizing polygamy. It seems that some of what I said has been misunderstood. Happy to clear anything up 🙂
    I most decidedly do not have my head in the sand as some have suggested. I am fully aware of the horrid abuses and the myth of “free agency” that can exist within religious communities. I just thought it was time to talk about other experiences in other polygamist communities. Most polygamists in the United States have nothing to do with Warren Jeff’s or the FLDS.

  160. *Jeffs*
    Stupid autocorrect.

  161. Here’s an editorial from a Phoenix, AZ newspaper which states, “The towns’ attorney told the Associated Press, “DOJ asked us to dismantle a community.”

    Earth to attorney: that wouldn’t upset that many people.”

    Read entire editorial, well written IMO!

    Be sure to vote in poll at end of article.

  162. Attention everyone! The DOJ has posted the following on it’s website:

    All FLDS people & ex FLDS people, heads up, this from the above article is for you!

    “If you have any information regarding this matter, please contact the Justice Department at 1-800-896-7743 or email the department at”

    If you have ever been abused or harmed by Warren Jeffs and his goons please call or e-mail above.

  163. A good chance for those who suffer in silence to come forward and speak up!

  164. Great find A Texan. I hope people burn up the phone and email lines.

  165. Vodouqueen,

    Thanks for your input. My dissemination here of your conference material were direct quotes from your presentation. You were very pro-decriminalization. However, I appreciate that you stated more than once that in no way to you condone any of the abuses that take place in the FLDS and other communities. But I’m sure you already know that horrific crimes against women and children have taken place in large numbers in every other mormon-based polygamous society there is, including the AUB, Kingstons, Greens, Singers, Harmstons, and the Canadian and Mexican contingents. I could go on. I have no doubt there are good and loving people in all those groups as well.

    Perhaps the independents have the least number of abuses, I do not know. But the problem with your “consenting adults” argument is that those households are full of minors who cannot consent.

  166. Vodoqueen, you are wrong, most polygamists aren’t outside the realm of Warren Jeffs and the FLDS, they are mostly offshoots of the same religion he professes to be profit of. They all come from the same common denominator and it doesn’t work. Even with “consenting” adults it doesn’t work. A girl who is raised to believe that she will lose her salvation if she doesn’t enter into a plural marriage of the profit’s choosing isn’t “consenting” even if she has reached the age of majority. Being bullied or forced by coercion isn’t consenting.

  167. @third cousin, thanks for taking the time to reply 🙂
    I definitely admit that those quotations are from my presentation and I am also very pro-decriminalization. I just didn’t want people to get the idea that polygamy inherently equals abuse. Nor do I want people to think that polygamy is inherently empowering to women. To me this issue is extremely complex and I wanted to expand the conversation a little bit. Positive stories about polygamy rarely (if ever) get media attention. The women I’ve been working with (many of whom have advanced degrees and work professionally) are never represented in the larger conversation. Their experiences are equally valid. To me, decriminalization would drag polygamy out from under its current rock and make abuses (like what happened in the FLDS) easier to spot. That’s my theory, anyway.

    As for the consenting adults argument, by no means do I think this is always the case. In the community I’ve been working with, it absolutely is, but my research also tells me that this is rarely the case within Jeffs’ FLDS group.

    This is the larger problem with religious education, in my opinion. It could be said that any girl (or boy) who is raised in any patriarchal group (most of the world’s religions qualify) is groomed to behave in ways acceptable to the larger religious order. Can there ever be consent for anyone, then?

    @proudtexan, I totally agree that nearly all practicing polygamists in the United States are offshoots of the Mormon faith. What I meant earlier was that most of these groups do not recognize Jeffs as having any kind of authority. The women who are living plural marriage that I have been working with refer to him as a pedophile and a sociopath. They also find it abhorrent that a wife and children could be reassigned to another “more worthy” priesthood holder. That is not how polygamy is practiced within their community. I have meet priesthood council members who were open and transparent and have been personally welcomed to attend church services whenever I like. That kind of transparency just doesn’t happen in Colorado City. I absolutely agree that coercion and bullying and then stepping back and calling it “consent” is a total farce.

  168. Voudoo

    IRT to the first part, outside religions may raise children to follow their faith, but taking it a step further and expecting them to marry into this program is a step too far, which legalization would just encourage.

    There is no emperical data that would suggest legalization would slow abuses at all… but indeed it would encourage more to start doing it, or rather fold to pressure to start doing it.

    And while most “white” polygamists are fundamental mormons (taking muslims out – which actually may be a bigger class) they are by no means the only partakers of the practice.

    David Koresh embibed, and we see what happened there in Waco. Tony Alamo did it too, he is now in prison for 150 years, spending life like Warren.

    Canada is much more liberal than the US, they currently have nationwide gay marriage, but even there, they found it more than they could stomach after a full blown referendum.

    Sorry, it just aint gonna happen. Guess there is always Mexico or Morroco.

  169. And…. Need we mention, the AUB. That may / may not be the class you are speaking of, but a group in them indeed have been heaped tons of positive press. – the sister wives kody brown clan

    Unkown to many, is that their church ripped a lady off and now owes a judgement to her of about 6.5 million dollars.

    Now, whether polygamy was legal or not, it has nothing to do with them ripping her off and getting sued and their neglect to own up and pay her.

    Nothing at all to do with polygamy.

    If polygamy was legal Kody and his “wives” would still have had all those bankruptcies – see there is no law that even IF it was legal they would even DO IT legally because they then couldnt bleed the beast as efficiently.

    So the point is, even if IT WAS LEGALIZED there is simply no way to force them to, and there would still be no checks and balances to prevent continued abuses – all the while young girls would be groomed to be handed off to some bubba of some prophets choosing.

    Nah, It’ll never happen.

  170. There’s a difference between decriminalization and making it legal. To me, making it legal means that the government would recognize and license the additional marriages and would rule on suits relating to them. I have read some polygamists online claiming the last thing they want is to have it legalized. What they want is to continue as they are, including the welfare checks for the “single mothers” and have the government otherwise leave them alone.

  171. Indeed, legalization for those that went that route would close loopholes like welfare and multiple bankruptcies.

    Plus, who would want to watch some idiot family if it was legal – just strange?

    I guess Octomom fans would.

    But both decriminalization and legalization both would enable the “patriarchs” to further pressure young women into that life.

    I’m thinking they would ignore the ability to do it legally and just plod on as they have, abusing the law and anything else they saw fit.

  172. Decriminalization and legalization are kissing cousins as far as I am concerned. If it is going to be decriminalized then the father of the 45 or how many ever kids needs to have the means to support them without government assistance of any kids. No welfare, food stamps, etc. Just Daddy supporting X number of wives and Y number of children. I also think that if it is legalized that all the children should have to go to public school so that they can be watched for any signs of abuse. One reason that so much of the abuse is missed is that the children in question are hidden behind the curtain of homeschooling so there is no one seeing the abuse on a daily basis.

    I am against decriminalization and/or legalization. If for no other reason than it would lead to so many other problems, like having to overhaul the probate code. Who would the man’s heirs be for inheritance?

  173. I’m not a big fan of homeschooling for a number of reasons. In many locations, it is not regulated at all and is the equivalent of no schooling. Also, a mother who has not finished high school herself is not qualified to teach her children to a level that prepares them for the real world. I helped with step children who were “home schooled”. They knew the Hebrew alphabet and could quote Shakespeare in 8th grade. And they were doing 2nd grade math and had had about zero exposure to science. They also were appalled at the idea of getting up at 6 AM and studying even on days when the weather was nice. They thought taking off two weeks to sew and visit for a family wedding was completely reasonable and the whole month between Thanksgiving and Christmas should be holiday time. Of the 5, one is a PhD, one has a college degree and a normal job, one is a home schooling mother who never finished high school, one does not work a regular job but occasionally does sheet rock work under the table and one is a part time waitress. The youngest is 28 and the last three have no high school degree even after years of off and on again junior college. Guess which ones attended real schools in their childhood?

    And it’s not just this family, but I have friends in education who have tried to “save” home schooling kids and help them get in to college, only to have them flunk out or just not show up in their first year. I have a friend who was home schooled by his parents who were both PhDs and college professors, and he did not get his PhD until he was 40 and his only job has been part time college professor jobs.

  174. I am unsure whether anybody had posted this slip opinion on Abram Harker Jeffs.

  175. I agree that home schooling is a cover for cults and non-cult people can lead to problems. I personally think it is horrible. However, I have had a number of home schooled young people in my college class room and, perhaps, it is a case of sink or swim. Those that swim, swim beyond their peers. It would be interesting to see the statistics. If only one out of a hundred is an olympian swimmer because of highly engaged homeshooling then the cost of 99 failed children is not worth it. If it splits 50 50 then the public policy debate would be a hot one. If it is 99 home schooled children succeeded to 1 failing then all is well (bet it isn’t the last of these scenarios)

    Given the politics of home schooling I think the best to hope for is that all home schooled individuals should have rigorous testing to monitor that the children are achieving grade level competencies in all subjects. How one could arrange for a system for abuse monitoring would be difficult. I think that if you know you have a problem with cults and home schooling then a law should be devised that requires on site or off site visits associated with the mandatory testing.

  176. I believe the women that Voodouqueen has spent the most time with are Centennial Park folks.

  177. Yes, that is true. And also my point. There are many kinds of experiences under the larger polygamy umbrella. It doesn’t seem right to discount their experiences as they have worked hard to educate their kids (well into the college years) and live their religious beliefs in a fairly progressive way. Even more strange that this community has flourished so close to Colorado City.
    They are why I am for decriminalization, which as others have pointed out, is not the same as legalization. There will always be abuses within human societies. We need to target the abusers and not punish everyone for guilt by association.

  178. Except that the Canadian Test case shows that any society that practices polygamy will end up confronting the numbers game and the response will be either expulsion of young men and/or a lowering of the age of placement of female children. It also shows that on the whole children in polygamous families have less parental time, less ability to emotionally bind, greater chance of abuse, and less economic resources, resulting in a lower survival rate to adulthood.

    Just because a few manage to make it work is not sufficient to balance the net harm of polygamy. That was the decision that the judge had to make in Canada. To weigh the few against the many and as a societal decision it should weigh the many children against the few adults.

  179. Vodouqueen, there are abuses in the CP families. You just need to dig a little. They hide it well, but there are abuses. They have the same problem of equity as CC/Hildale, the leaders are living in opulent mansions while the rank and file are living in squalor. It is inherently unequal and using them as an example is laughable.

  180. I never said there were not abuses in CP. There are abuses everywhere. I’m just not prepared to make a blanket statement that polygamy is inherently abusive. My years as a cultural anthropologist make that impossible. Thankfully so. I’m not one to rush to judgment. I enjoy the larger conversation and realize there will probably never be agreement between differing positions. I’m okay with that.

  181. The Judge in the referendum case in Canada found that polygamy is inherently abusive. I’m not sure exactly what a cultural anthropologist is, but it sounds like to me that it is an apologist for polygamy.

  182. Nope. But I’m not going to take the bait. I really liked this blog because it seemed fairly even handed, yet in just about every interaction with you, you’ve made personal attacks, calling me everything from laughable to an apologist for polygamy. Nowhere have you specifically addressed my claims, instead referring to Canada, which I’m sure has a different set of cultural standards. Whatever.

  183. Vodouqueen,
    Canada’s cultural standards are far more liberal than the US, so the statement that it is a different culture moves in the wrong direction.

    The polyamory group got a fair amount of support in its bid to fight the ban on polygamy in fear that they would be swept up in the anti-polygamy movement.

    Despite all that the case documents have nothing to do with Canada, and everything to do with current and historical polygamy with documents pro and con. You should read them. There is NO polygamy self sustaining that does so without religious or social coercion.

    The only way I could “buy” polygamy is to show me more than a handful of families that practice patriarchal polygamy (not polyamory) that is not religiously based in any form and that the women involved all have college educations and options of their own.

    Bet you can not find such a community,

    Now that is, for me, an aggressive post, but in re-reading it I can not see that there is any personal attack.

    Here is a link to the case documents: read away

  184. Sorry Vodouqueen,

    my link was to the search

    Here is the right link:

    Click to access Polygamy_reference_1344799a.pdf

  185. Last post,
    I think that you are making the same mistake the Brooke Adams did and other supporters of polygamy. You see good people who you respect and admire and from there make a logical jump: “good” people do “X” therefore “X” can not be bad.
    Well there are plenty of good people in jail for a variety of reasons including murder. Being a “good” person does not validate a particular action.

    In the case of polygamy society has some rights to make policy decisions about what strengthens and what weakens society and about what, in general, protects children and what, in general does not. I have no doubt that some people raise amazing children who become college educated, post-college educated and productive members of society, but until shown data that contradicts the voluminous evidence submitted in the Canadian test case, the data base available shows that, in general, polygamy is highly detrimental to children and women and to the society that surrounds those practicing it.

    Now I am going to get snarky and say – read the documents in the link I provided and lets discuss specific documents, rather than, “I know some people whom I admire…”

    P.S. at one point in my life I was a cultural anthropologist too and I am NOT a religious bible thumper or even believer, but simply because a culture is different does not it ethical. Some anthropologists make an argument that because female genital mutilation is carried out by the older women in the community as a female ritual that one can not make a negative value judgment. I contend that the point of education and life is to move individuals and societies toward making ethical decisions based on experience and judgment, consequently, while I can understand the cultural context in which female genital mutilation occurs, I can not condone it. Same with polygamy.

  186. I have read that material and I can respect your position. Aggressive posts I don’t mind. It’s personal attacks that waste my time and do nothing for the conversation. You’re right, I didn’t see any in your post.
    What I meant by differences in Canada is that the polygamist groups I am familiar with up there are fairly isolated and quite fundamental in their religious beliefs. Women are not encouraged to attend college and largely are given a tiny box of so-called “choices.” My only contention is that polygamy doesn’t have to be that way and some families (and communities) have managed to break that mold. This doesn’t mean that polygamy is always unicorns and rainbows, but it’s not all abuse, underage girls, and coercion, either.

  187. You are simplifying my argument as well. I’m not saying all polygamy is good. I’m saying that it doesn’t necessarily have to be all bad. I am also not a cultural relativist who believes just because a practice is culturally condoned somewhere, it should be valid everywhere. Your analogy to FGM doesn’t work for me.
    What is missing from this argument is a nuanced approach that recognizes the multitude of human experiences. Until that happens, there can be no actual dialogue, just hurling accusations.

  188. If you think it is a personal attack, well so be it, but it seems that you won’t accept any other position except your own, so there isn’t going to be a dialogue with you anyway.

    The most telling case for me is looking at the daughters of Winston Blackmore who have married. All of the girls who are outside the influence of the Jeffs cult have chosen their own spouse and all are in monogamous relationships. (He does have 2 daughters who were married before the split with Jeffs who are still in the Jeffs faction and are in polygamous relationships.) These girls have been raised with multiple mothers and seen what a plural wife goes through. The fact that they are choosing monogamous relationships speaks volumes, along with the fact that several of Winston’s wives have left him and moved out on their own. Once the children were allowed the freedom to make choices, the choice wasn’t polygamy, it was monogamy.

  189. My only position is that extreme  positions (in one direction or another) do not accurately reflect the many different kinds of experiences people can have.  So yes, I cannot dialogue with you if your position is that polygamy is all bad, all the time.  It simply isn’t. 

    So the Blackmore women married monogamously. Great, I applaud that they had a choice.  My mom was a stay at home wife/mother who never attended college. I did the opposite. That doesn’t mean I condemn her choice (or the choice of contemporary women to stay home). Life is too interesting and complex to be seen in black and white. 

  190. I guess it’s a good thing I live in Texas where they put polygamists in jail for 10 year stretches. I feel that’s where they belong because they are breaking the law. I understand wanting to change the law and working toward that end, but to be blatantly breaking the law isn’t the best way to make that happen.

  191. I can definitely see your point there. I see major similarities between polygamous marriages and gay rights. Most polygamists are not legally married just like a lot of gay couples have held marriage ceremonies even though they are not legally married as well. I do think it’s weird that Utah’s bigamy law is more about cohabitation. Weird choice of words aimed at the celestial marriage bunch, for sure.

  192. VDQ,

    You seem to be saying: I, me, I, know “good” polygamists. The vast bulk of the literature that is provided is irrelevant to my personal knowledge, and that my personal knowledge (no less as an anthropologist!) is equivalent to the rest of the data therefore we should create a big tent for everybody.

    You state that it isn’t all of one thing or the other and that it is nuanced.

    That is like saying we shouldn’t have laws stating the cut off limits for being legally intoxicated because some people can handle it and by setting societal rules we are infringing on those who can handle more alcohol.

    Can you write a nuanced law which takes into account the preponderance of evidence that polygamy generally devolves into restriction of female rights and unmarried young men? The Canadian judge didn’t think it was possible. How would you do it? I am truly curious because I don’t see how it can be done.

  193. voodou person

    I ask things straight up.

    Are you now in a polygamous relationship? Have you ever been in a polygamous relationship?

    Has your husband, father, mother ever been in a polygamous relationship?

    How about the “in-laws”?

    Are you affilated with the LDS Church?


  194. No to all of your questions.

  195. VDQueen, how do you feel about polygamy where a woman has multiple husbands?

  196. I have no problem with polyandry, with the same caveat: no one should be coerced into participating. Not too popular, though. Fewer than a dozen societies/subgroups practice it.

  197. Thanks for the reply.

    You are aware of the history behind CPark am I right? You do realize that many of those families have ties with the FLDS. Same tree per se.
    How could you hear the statements from one sister and ignore the the statements from the other?

    Have you lived in a polygamous community? ( More than weekends or a 3 hour scheduled visit to the neighborhood type study) ?

    From get go many in the CPark have mentioned the abuses that the FLDS members have gone thru. Why didn’t they speak up?
    Shurtleff stood up before all and said he wouldn’t go after them for polygamy. In fact the AG before him said as much.

    Why didn’t they speak up?

    You’ve seen the videos. You’ve seen the documentation. I haven’t seen yours. Why is it that the evidence that Dr. Susan S. and the findings from the Canadian fact finding wasn’t presented?

    Have you seen any of the interviews with Rebecca Kimble?

    After all the research that you have done, can you tell me why Polygamists go thru the motion of having a legal marriage? For what purpose?

    One more thing.

    Why use the nic voodou queen and not your real name?
    And are you a voodou queen and how does one come about becoming a voodou queen?

    Is it similar to being a sister wife but not really being a sister or a wife?
    Just curious

  198. HHG raised some very good points.

    Personally, I think the stories that a culture chooses to tell itself are very important and mold much of what happens within those cultures. The scriptures of fundamentalist Mormonism along with the correspondence and sermons of it’s early leaders tells a story that devalues women in the extreme. It very clearly states that the women have no choice except to allow their husbands however many wives they want to have or to be damned and “destroyed by God”. It also turns over the salvation of a woman to her husband’s choice after death, so she has a strong incentive to suck up to him in this life. So a woman’s choice is obedience and sublimation of her own natural desire for an exclusive and reciprocal relationship or total annihilation either in this world or the next. I fail to see how that could be anything but negative for the women and think that it would tend to raise narcissistic men and insecure and submissive women. The official leadership structures are always male. When you turn that much power over to one gender and give it sexual overtones, you are just asking for sexual abuse in various forms because there is little or no sanctions on the men to avoid it. The boys club just blames the female and makes excuses for the male in all but the most blatant cases. When you add the glorification of a high rate of child birth as a woman’s highest calling, then you increase the impact to the woman and the children. It’s a set up for poverty. I really don’t see how the net effect could be anything but bad. When you add a tendency towards communal living and isolation, all the other problems are exacerbated. It’s like looking at the laws against women driving cars in some Islamic countries and saying that it’s not all bad cause walking is good for one’s health.

    I see a difference between religious polygyny and non religious polyamory. In the latter, there is no destructive story about self worth based on gender. In fact, it seems that gender equality and choice are held in high esteem. There is no requirement that the male be the only gender with multiple partners, nor even that heterosexuality is required. There is no tendency towards a high birth rate, in fact the opposite seems to be the case. They do not generally take themselves out of the mainstream of society, but are working, living and going to school with the rest of society. Therefor the checks on abuse are about the same as in any other type of relationship.

    I see religious polygyny as always negative. When women are removed from the religious pressure, they tend to make monogamous choices pretty much exclusively. There are no autobiographies of women who were previously in polygynous relationships where they talk about how wonderful it is; it is only women currently under the influence of the male and the pressures of the group who say that. No one leaves the religion and then repeats the polygyny because it works for them socially and is a system they would repeat without the spiritual coercion. The religion is a story that is told so that the high ranking men can have what they want, period.

  199. Voudoo Queen

    “What is missing from this argument is a nuanced approach that recognizes the multitude of human experiences”

    Au contraire, while this site has focused on the detailed facts of the flds community, it also has nuanced many other groups including CP, how they were formed and how they conduct themselves.

    We have nuanced accounts from many ex – fundamentals sprinkled through nearly every thread. Few have had positive things to say of the practice, probably because the negative drama surrounding their lives outweighed anything positive. And for women? It surely is a demeaning practice, robbing them of a one-on-one loving relationship free of fear and jealousy.

    How many ways can we nuance that and would you dare try?

    And isnt it nice that they have turned the Safety Net meetings into a “ring the bell for decriminalization” meeting – instead of its intended use, to help people who are pushed out, or in the case of young women, roped back in. (?)

    So, going back to HHG’s argument, maybe 10% of polygamist men arent too bad… while the rest of the 90% are rather horrible in their practice – should we decriminalize?

    The answer should be a resounding “NO”!

    Its still a felony, and for good reason.

    And no, it has nothing to do with gay rights, seeing that polygamy in its use TAKES AWAY RIGHTS OF WOMEN although its quite funny that the polygamists who are major homophobes want to ride their coattails in the legal arena.

    Even the Gays are aghast.

    As a cultural anthropologist, you have to recognize the harm to people as well as any benefit.

    To me, I have seen little acknowledgement of many of the problems, indeed you are claiming there are some good families, so “lets make it carte blanche for the entire class” inclucing the multitudes of abusers.. and as such your blanket wish is just fairy dust, its not going anywhere and we’ve all seen why.

  200. Vodouqueen said this on June 22, 2012 at 7:03 PM

    Interesting read. FYI, I’m the person who spoke at the Safety Net conference about decriminalizing polygamy. It seems that some of what I said has been misunderstood. Happy to clear anything up

    Walton asks the questions:
    voodou person

    I ask things straight up.

    Are you now in a polygamous relationship? Have you ever been in a polygamous relationship?

    Has your husband, father, mother ever been in a polygamous relationship?

    How about the “in-laws”?

    Are you affilated with the LDS Church?


    Anonymous said this on June 24, 2012 at 10:02 PM
    No to all of your questions.

    Vodouqueen said this on June 24, 2012 at 10:31 PM


    Click to access Dialogue_V37N04_19.pdf

    Embodied Mormonism:
    Performance, Vodou
    and the LDS Faith in Haiti Basquiat, Jennifer Huss


    I am all about 2nd chances voodou person.

    I might yell, wave my hands, and rant and rave about things. But I consider those who post here to be good people and I can tell you now, that the truth won’t hurt them. But lies and omissions of truth will cast doubt about the things being said. And I must say there is just that common sense factor that can’t be bought, sold, traded or given away.

    So….why were the studies from Canada and Dr. Susan left out of the Safety Net conference? And… how conclusive can your findings be if you’ve only visited with one group for scheduled meetings?


  201. The above link came from here:,+Jennifer+Huss/abasquiat+jennifer+huss/-3,-1,0,B/l856~b1016386&FF=abasquiat+jennifer+huss&2,,3,1,0


  202. The answer as to why the CPers didn’t help their family in the FLDS is because it was the same thing that is going on in their own household.

  203. Further, a “Cultural Anthropologist” would face a nightmare in properly studying the effects of each and every “culture” that practices polygamy, as we have seen former partners in the practice who remain next door neighbors practicing it in much different ways.

    To cherry pick one group for whatever reason and try to extrapolate their behavior as being the norm is disingenous at best and dishonest in reality.

    Again – polygamy is a felony for a reason and its going to stay that way.

  204. VDQ,
    I think I remember from your Safety Net presentation that you were born into and grew up in the mainstream LDS church but then left it as an adult. Do I have that right?

  205. Betty said this on June 25, 2012 at 6:18 AM

    thanks Betty, your writing is exactly my thougths on the subject.

  206. As for the DOJ – I am really glad they are stepping in. Utah and AZ legislatures and Shirtleff had plenty of evidence to have done something about it before now. Hope they all now realize they were part of the problem. Just wish for the non-FLDS locals that the DOJ had taken a stand long before now. It was way overdue.

  207. Attention everyone! The DOJ has posted the following on it’s website:

    All FLDS people & ex FLDS people, heads up, this from the above article is for you!

    “If you have any information regarding this matter, please contact the Justice Department at 1-800-896-7743 or email the department at”

    If you have ever been abused or harmed by Warren Jeffs and his goons please call or e-mail above.

    A Texan said this on June 22, 2012 at 8:54 PM

    Wish there was some way to post this in town to get the word out to those who are barred from accessing the web.

  208. Nothing like waking up to a bunch of accusations from people who don’t understand your work or make the huge mistake of thinking a statement here or there explains everything that you do. I believe most of you didn’t hear my presentation and have had to rely on bits and pieces which really don’t explain my whole argument. I’m beginning to think this is not a great forum for open conversation. Regardless of what I say or how many times I try to say it, most of you seem hell bent on making my argument different than what it is.
    A few points I want to make:
    1. My key argument is that there are positive experiences of polygamy out there that most people want to completely refute. 
    2. This information was not gathered at set meetings with Safety Net. I have been involved in many other facets of ethnography in Centennial Park for the past 2 years. They were hardly “set” meetings. This is also ongoing research. It is by no means “finished.”
    3. At no point, ever, did I say polygamy in CP is the norm or that my work is conclusive. My claim is simply that polygamy is possible without all the abuses we so regularly hear of and where women are encouraged to pursue higher education and/or professional careers. Perhaps this can only happen on a small scale; I don’t know, that’s why I’m conducting research.
    4.  Providing the link to my Dialogue article is hardly a “gotcha” moment. I answered all of Walton’s questions honestly.  That article was based on my dissertation/field work written about Vodou and Mormonism in Haiti. I lived in Haiti for a semester conducting field work for my Ph.D.  I was approached by a Dialogue editor who had read my abstract online.  The piece was edited for the magazine and published. While I grew up LDS, I haven’t been a member or attended services for 17 years.  I’m not sure why this is somehow a “conspiracy” from which I need to come clean.  
    5. As for why certain material was left out of the Safety Net conference, I can only speak to my presentation which was designed to get people to think out of the box, or at the very least, to stop automatically judging the polygamy culture as just one thing. I still stand by it, but am getting weary of people making it something it wasn’t.

    Well, there it is.  Can ‘t wait to find out what I really said when you tear it all apart. Sorry if I seem snarky, but imagine saying one thing and having people run with it in another direction. Not fun. Frustrating.

  209. Granted that there are people living a polygymous life style without abuse, underage marriage, strict dictates by the religious leaders, etc. Imo, This fact does not justify the decriminalization of polygamy. Polygamy is illegal in the USA. To say that we are just going to ignore that law and not enforce is exactly what the Utah AG is doing already.

  210. Reproducing Patriarchy and Erasing Feminism : the Selective Construction of History within the Mormon Community

    “The author, herself a Mormon feminist, argues that there is a feminist history and culture embedded in the Church. She notes that Church leaders have suppressed the publication of that feminist element in its past because it “hardly reflects Mormonism as it is practiced today.” She argues that priesthood leaders (who she regards as the “ruling class”) use the threat of excommunication to maintain and perpetuate the “current status quo.” She also argues that the ritual of sustaining Church leaders “provides only the illusion of choice.”,+Jennifer+Huss/abasquiat+jennifer+huss/-3%2C-1%2C0%2CB/frameset&FF=abasquiat+jennifer+huss&3%2C%2C3

    Proud Texan, HHG, Stamp, Betty and the others tried to share with you just some of the findings and it was YOU that is playing make believe.

    You are making excuses. You are trying to lay claim that not “all polygamy groups” face these problems and that society as a whole is being unfair.

    And then to top it off, the article above shows exactly the same type of behaviour in the LDS Church. That women are less than.

    you can’t flip flop and not expect people to notice or care enough to check on things.

    You haven’t done enough research to make such a claim that decriminalization is the answer. Which it isn’t.


  211. VDQ, I wonder if you would have the same stance if the subject was a group doing illegal drugs, but they weren’t having any ill effects from the drug usage. It would still be illegal, but it seems as though you would say it was OK for this group to break the law based on no ill effects.

    CP polygamy has just as many problems, including underage marriage as the FLDS. The difference is that there wasn’t an outcry from an abuse victim which allowed the documents to be recovered as they were with the FLDS. I would imagine that if you could get access to the same sort of CP records as have been obtained from the FLDS you would find similar scenarios and abuse.

    The CP group is a kissing cousin of the FLDS if not an actual sibling.

  212. 700 kids left the group AFTER Warren was in jail and or prison. How does that happen?

    Will there be yet another surge? And the parents are where? doing what? how does a “loving family of consenting adults” let that happen?

    What’s worse? 700 children running away (for whatever reason) or the fact that their parents and their partners married or otherwise watch them go and do nothing.

    And people are talking about decriminalizing? please.

  213. I’m not flip-flopping in this thread at all and have nothing to hide. Search away. I haven’t contradicted myself, but made a very streamlined argument that others wish to turn into something else. As for my description as a “Mormon feminist,” I can tell you I am not. If you know anything about publishing you would know that an author has very little control over how he/she is portrayed. I imagine for the Dialogue audience, it was useful for the editors to cast me in a particular light. I have nothing to hide, have admitted the abuses people have detailed here are real, and have repeatedly said I’m talking about my own research only, allowing for the possibility that “happy” polygamists exist elsewhere. The idea of not judging someone or something until you understand the nuances of the situation seems lost on you. I prefer to stick with academia where people are not afraid of nuanced positions, engage in worthwhile debate without resorting to fallacious argument, and aren’t afraid to have personal positions evolve from a certain starting place. My opinions change all the time; it’s called personal growth.

    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. (Albert Einstein)

    I’m done. I wish you all well.

  214. VDQ – the problem is that you want to engage a dialog of the fact that polygamy can be good – few of us here deny that there can be “good” polygamy – you are not exactly bringing us new information. Now if you want to argue that a “culture” can be established that reinforces “good” polygamy and weeds out “bad” then you need to provide a whole lot more information because apart from your study there is little data or evidence to support that proposition. You would need to describe the social structural norms (are the women ruling the priest hood meetings?; are the women selecting husbands and not vice versa? Are the women enforcing legal age marriage, if so how?, in what way does the group ostracize and punish those who are abusing the process by selecting younger women? How is the group dealing with the issue of excess males?

    All you said is “it can work” and “we need to nuance it” and “decriminalization” without any of the background context and then you say that the Canadian Test case documents which are by far and away the largest repository of information don’t apply and that we aren’t open to dialog.

    It seems to me that you have as clear of an agenda as we do and yet you object to the fact that we are up front with our agenda – polygamy IS, WAS, and WILL be wrong – you have not really brought anything to the table and now you are going to huff away about how we are not listening.

    For us to listen you have to provide a whole lot more than the description of some families working well…You would have to start with the questions I listed and add to that – other questions about self monitoring within the group.

  215. PS – another slam on the way out – you have absolutely no idea how many of us work in academia nor how many of us have had our ideas evolve while following the Warren Jeffs disaster.

  216. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. (Albert Einstein)

    I’m done. I wish you all well.

    Anonymous said this on June 25, 2012 at 12:50 PM

    I know flip flop when I see it. You said one thing in one journal and then you are saying another here. Flip…….FLOP.

    150 plus years of people making excuses and trying to cover up the craziness. over and over again. For over 150 years the cycle has been denial, lies and more of the same.

    it is indeed insane.

    Don’t get me wrong. I found your writings very interesting. Very interesting indeed. And I am being very serious when I say that.

    And I would be interested in hearing what you would have to say AFTER you’ve read the studies that have been done. I would be interested to hear what you have to say AFTER you’ve viewed the interviews with Rebecca Kimble and the many others. Until then, it is you who is in the dark.

    And as I said before, the people that post here can handle the truth. They are good people. If you want respect, I suggest you show some respect. Stamp has been around forever, Proud Texas, third Cousin, chemist. Everyone is still here.

    imo it would have been much easier and a whole lot simpler had the laws been enforced.


  217. Don’t let us run you off VDQ. Many of us here are also academics. I would like to hear more about your field work findings. I just can’t support legalization at all.

  218. I get all that, but wasn’t aware that I would need to defend who I am as a person only to have that questioned and ridiculed (Walton). Nor was I saying my work is done and to blindly accept it. It is a work in progress and I’m working through all the issues you suggest. When I’m ready to publish, these arguments will be answered. In addition, CP is a case study work for me, not the end all be all of polygamy. This whole thread (for me) felt like people took a tiny part oft argument, ran with it, and made it a larger, definitive statement of my position, which it is not. I’m not leaving in a huff, but won’t stay and keep hittingy head against the wall when people misrepresent my position. Disagree with it, fine. Personally attack me and redefine my argument, not worthy time.
    To be fair, I have enjoyed quite a few exchanges here so maybe I just need to grow a thicker skin and ignore the blatantly stupid and baiting comments.

  219. Thanks, thirdcousin. I’m generally not a fan of blogging because personal attacks and shifting arguments seem to be rampant, but I have liked what you’ve had to say. Although it’s a small point, I favor decriminalization, not legalization. And I’m all for exposing abuses and prosecuting the abusers. Thanks for your comment.

  220. As far as I can tell polygamy in Utah is already decriminalized. What would be different?

  221. Voodou person- I suppose I should feel bad. I don’t.

    I own up to what I do and what I say.

    But I am curious as to why the Safety Net would have someone who hasn’t studied the BIG Picture but a handful from the CPark area.


  222. I’m confused everyone – I don’t get the difference between legalization and decriminalization. If it’s against the law, it’s criminal behavior.

    VDQ – we all occasionally annoy each other here, but Walton is a good egg who can’t help but ask the tough questions. You’ll get used to our personalities after a while. We never endorse actual personal attacks.

  223. An active cultural anthropologist could also find many cases where slavery works for all parties involved.

    Would that mean it should be decriminalized? Hardly.

    If you speak in public without completing your research, you have set the stage for criticism.

    Thats a pretty simple concept isnt it?

    Because this site has compiled piles of data pointing to the abuses of polygamy which has been de facto decriminalized in Utah as noted by HHG (so you are barking up the wrong tree there) but we have seen a cornucopia of crimes pouring from many of the cults that imbibe in the practice as a result of said UT / AZ decriminalization.

    That in itself is empirical evidence of WHY it should NOT be further decriminalized.

  224. Good advice, thirdcousin. I just didn’t like the “a ha!” approach of linking to my Dialogue article. I’ll learn to understand your personalities (I hope). Anyone who knows me knows I have NOTHING to do with the Mormon church.
    Currently in Utah it is a 3rd degree felony to practice polygamy. Decriminalization would make it a misdemeanor. While it isn’t usually prosecuted, the fact that it could be (like the 1953 raid) makes people skittish to live polygamy out in the open. I am of the mind that the more we marginalize, the more we radicalize (something I heard on NPR today that really seemed to fit) so decriminalization works for me.

  225. Yes, many of the posters here are or were in acadamea (s?). They have done research, published papers, etc. Most of my knowledge of US polygamy comes from my research on the LDS fundie groups, primarily the flds and the Davis County Cooperative (The Kingston Group). My research leads me to believe that decriminalization is not warranted. Your research on the CP leads to a different conclusion.A common situation. I am active LDS, but am a convert and do not have pioneer ancestors who crossed the plains and practiced polygamy in the 1800s.

  226. Not sure what it is in Texas, but it cost Wendell Nielsen 10 years in prison and a $30,000 fine.

  227. No pressuer here- If you want to get to Heaven Youth Polygamy Interview 1


  228. Thanks for that information, chemist. So true that different sites can yield different conclusions. Have you published? I’d love to read your work.

  229. Anything I have published is in arcane chemistry journals.

  230. LOL, as a social scientist, my head might explode. Haven’t done chemistry since high school.

  231. VoudouQueen,

    I’d just like to say how much I appreciate your reasonable and respectful communication about these issues. My perspective differs greatly from yours, but I’m glad you offer a counterpoint for consideration and present your views so thoughtfully and respectfully. Thank you for commenting here.

  232. VoudouQueen,

    I’d just like to say how much I appreciate your reasonable and respectful communication about these issues. My perspective differs greatly from yours, but I’m glad you offer a counterpoint for consideration and present your views so thoughtfully and respectfully. Thank you for commenting here.

  233. Oops double posted 🙂

  234. Wow, Emma. Thanks 🙂
    It can take awhile to find my footing in a new environment, but I do really want to be here. I really appreciate your comment.

  235. As an introduction to Vodouqueen, I used to participate more often here but have been more of a lurker lately. I am one ‘of a certain age’ who was a practicing polygamist (a multiple wife) before the big early 80s split which morphed into FLDS and CP – often referred to as 1st Ward / 2nd Ward. So my experience and many, many relatives span both groups.

    Like Emma, I appreciate your participation here, Vodouqueen, and want to encourage it. Impressed with your manner of communication about your ongoing research, I am interested in more of what you have to say. Unlike most here, I too lean toward decriminalization – not legalization. I am not prepared to go into a necessary long description of my personal position … it IS pretty personal… just hoping to hear more from you.

    In short, I agree with you on some issues, and disagree on others.

  236. Thanks, E.Texas. There are so many complex issues for me regarding polygamy. It’s hard to find complete agreement, but I’m happy to hear that we have some overlap. When I first started my work (and having read only negative portrayals, and A LOT of them) I was dead set against decriminalization/legalization of any kind. My work in the field has obviously changed that. For me, this is an issue that does not have an easy answer.

  237. VDQ, I won’t have time to read your published articles until later in the week but I look forward to it – we have something in common academically. I did the bulk of my graduate research (History) on a kind of medical anthropological study of the amalgamation of traditional indigenous aztec/nauhua and tarahumara customs and catholic culture among the Mexican people and how that melding can be evidenced among mexicans and mexican americans in Idaho today.

    Now that I’ve been set straight about decriminalization versus legalization, I have to say I had no idea there was a movement afoot to simply move it from felony to misdemeanor conduct. What if it was just a traffic ticket, a simple infraction?

    I think the utter world of E. Texas, but I just don’t think that I could go that route. I won’t ask E. Texas to get embroiled in that argument at this point because I know she is utterly swamped with other relevant things.

  238. Your research sounds fascinating! Let me know what you think of my Dialogue article when you get around to it. I have another article published by the Harvard Divinity School in the Journal of Feminist Studies in Religion, but it’s not as easily accessible in its full form on the internet. Curious to know what you think.

  239. Nice to meet you Emma, you’re welcome here!

  240. Here’s a funny comment that has nothing to do with polygamy but everything to do with discrimination – as a graduate and post graduate student my advisor, who had known my parents almost all my life, told me I shouldn’t research catholicism because I was a mormon. I’d a like ta fell over. This wasn’t even very long ago. He finally budged when I told him that a small percentage of my family were catholics. Can anyone believe I had to even tell him that? If we’re British we cannot study Germans? To his credit when he realized his mistake, he apologized all over the place. But doesn’t that make us all think?

  241. A lot of people sure have funny ideas about who should study what, that’s for sure. I had a doctoral advisor completely support my Haitian research to my face, only to tear me apart when I left the room. She (of Haitian descent) was put off that I would want to study her culture as a white American person. Thankfully, the Haitians I met in Haiti did not share this prejudice. She was easily replaced on my advisory committee (with strong approval from the other members who seemed embarassed by her behavior).

  242. You’re very welcome VDQ – and thanks for the welcome 3C. I’m brand new here; I’ve recently become fascinated with the FLDS and American polygyny and just discovered this blog. 

    I find respectful debate so very enriching. I agree that polygamy is a complex issue. I’ve been combing through the past discussions here and I look forward to reading more. All the perspectives, whether I agree or disagree, help me to crystallize my own. 

    Interesting stories about people imposing roadblocks to studying another culture/religion. Why keep understanding walled off? 

  243. I just LOVE that you called it polygyny! I gave up that battle long ago 😉

  244. Decriminalization means that there are no legal sanctions against it. Legalizing it means that you could register legal plural marriages at the court house. That would imply that the state could make regulations on the conditions of the plural marriage, such as the consent of the existing wives in writing and witnessed and minimum age requirements for both parties. It should be obvious why the polygamist males are not interested in that.

  245. As I said, as far as Utah is concerned, polygamy is already decriminalized so it is a moot point.

  246. Yep, Utah has turned a blind eye to the felony that is known as polygamy. I’ll bet the drug dealers wish they’d do the same for their felonious acts.

  247. I dont see where decriminalization is going to stop even one abuse.

    To date, we have AZ and UT which have formally announced they wont prosecute in the absence of crimes like child molestation (and even then seem pretty squeamish and limpwristed when dealing with perps caught red handed) and now the Federal Government has to step in and settle disputes.

    And they havent even done anything about the child sex trafficking thing yet between the US / Canada.

    Point is, no matter what level of law is pointed at them they will just do as they damn well please anyway. Thats why Texas has a dozen of them in prison right now.

  248. I have mixed feelings about active prosecution for polygamy, which makes me in the minority here. My problem with Utah is that they are saying that they will only prosecute if other crimes are involved, but since their record on THAT is abysmal it is really a free pass. It seems to me if you are fundamentalist mormon in Utah, murder and defrauding members of the LDS is about the only thing that will get you into trouble.

  249. VDQ

    “Currently in Utah it is a 3rd degree felony to practice polygamy. Decriminalization would make it a misdemeanor.”


    The problem with that is…….

    “The majority of criminal offenses in Utah are misdemeanors.

    A DUI is very often a misdemeanor.

    A misdemeanor is a less serious crime than a felony so the punishments are not as severe.

    Misdemeanors are divided into class A’s, B’s, and C’s.

    A class A misdemeanor is punishable up to a year in jail and a $2,500 fine.

    A class B misdemeanor is punishable up to 6 months in jail and a $1,000 fine.

    A class C misdemeanor is punishable up to 90 days in jail and a $750 fine.”

    So if we decriminalize it, should we then start prosecuting it or do they want the law to keep ignoring those laws too?

    Why of course, otherwise, they would face all these fines and jail time, and have to give up the practice.

    No, thats not what they want either darnit.

  250. I am sure all my bad feelings about polygamy is not polygamy itself but the other part of this religion that surrounds it. For people to believe they will only get to heaven if they live the lifestyle and then dump their male children (that is – condemn their child to hell) so there are enough females for the token males is seriously not right. And I don’t understand the more “liberal” groups that are ok with letting their children decide – do they believe if they choose another path they will still make it to heaven?

  251. Soooooo

    I am convinced that people dont want to “decriminalize it” with some form of law that they could and should be faced with the prosecution thereof, but rather they just want to skate as they always have, and I know I wont see a compelling argument against this opinion.

  252. The bottom line for me with polygamy is that even the CPers believe and teach their children that if you don’t live polygamy you are damned to hell. That is religious coercion and is not free choice. The only way it will ever been complete free choice is if the religion is taken out of it and I don’t see it happening, so it will continue to be a coerced behavior.

  253. I get what you are saying, but that is a non-unique argument. Nearly every religion proposes a righteous path to salvation and thereby can be considered coercive.

  254. Other religions dont coerce children to marry old guys who may already have a dozen wives and 25 children – entering into that union being a felony to boot.

    Is that why you want it to be a misdemeanor, so its easier to coerce the children and young women?

    That the big push for decriminalization? Because pushing children into a felony is just so nasty – but if its just a misdemeanor, no big deal?

  255. My religion doesn’t tell me if I don’t marry into a plural marriage that is against the law I will be damned to hell. In fact they don’t tell me to do anything that is against the law. If I don’t believe everything they do I’m not kicked out and exiled from my family.

  256. Yes, there are other extreme religous groups that do tell their kids they will go to hell if they leave their brand of religion and shun them as well. That is common between the extreme groups. But, they usually don’t put the additional requirement on the girls to have as many babies as physically possible with no regard to how they will be able to feed and clothe them. So they are not only coerce into marriage but into becoming breeders as well for the sake of their salvation.

    If consenting adults want to live in a commune or have multiple husbands with no religious coercion then I am all for it just like I am for gay marriage. None of it is for me, but, I can coexist. But, polygamy in the US comes with more strings than just multiple partners.

  257. VDQ bogus argument
    nearly every religion has a righteous path to heaven…. so what?
    which of them require shared sexual partners and procreating at a rate your body and your check book can not cope with and “keeping sweet”

  258. Rumor is that there won’t be any more FLDS meetings until after the “lifting up”.

  259. He’s leaving them to their own devices? How lucrative could that be?

  260. My dilemma? To be happy or afraid for them.

  261. Rumor is that there won’t be any more FLDS meetings until after the “lifting up”.
    Anonymous said this on June 26, 2012 at 5:34 PM

    Interesting, could it be in the narsicctic mind of Warren Jeffs, the DOJ lawsuit and the setting up of a tol free number and e-mail to tell the Feds about abuse from the FLDS controlled cops, and god squad, has Warren to the point of trusting no one in short creek! Perhaps he now trusts only those locked away at places like YFZ etc.

  262. Here’s a newspaper article that quotes Flora Jessop on subject of DOJ lawsuit. From article: “Jessop said she’s heard announcements such as this for 20 years and she’s been let down every time.”

    Read entire article:

  263. When exactly should I be ready to get lifted up anyway?

  264. I was wondering if a new date had been set, also…. Is a new ‘revelation’ due from Texas?

  265. To the best of my knowledge, no date has been given, only soon.

  266. I just finished The Immortal ife of Henrietta Lacks.”

  267. Who is she, 3C?

  268. This is how many times the flds are supposed to be lifted up? I remember Rulon – Jeffs dad who he stole position from – was pretty obsessed with that leading up to the year 2000 and he was disappointed too.

    Maybe the lifting will happen when the walls of prison fall down around Warren, thas supposed to happen any minute too.

    Obviously, they dont have enough “Faith” for that tho.

    As far as no more meetings, he has pulled that trick already – but went back to meetings.

    One can only guess why, I am going with his facing of building mistrust, important people leaving, and a host of other cult issues clustering up on his lap.

    With only 15 guys studding the various properties, and no one hearing the reason why or what fer, its gonna be an interesting year.

    Good thing they havent come near decriminalizing one iota of his nasty behavior.

  269. Stamp, he wasn’t suppose to even go to prison, the walls of the courthouse were suppose to crumble.

  270. Pesky flds cant force God to do anything right!

  271. One thing is becoming obvious, they dont want Slavery decriminalized either, they have all they need and get away with it so lets let sleeping dogs lie shall we?

  272. Stamp thanks for bringing the videos from Shaggy.

    I finally get it.

    It doesn’t matter if it was Warren, Rulon, Willie, Joseph Smith. They follow the “leader”. True or untrue. Real or not.

    I understand now the push.

    What I don’t understand is the pushing from one side of the street to the other side of the street.

    Decriminalizing would only allow room for more of the same imo.

    Even if they all jumped over to the CPark, it doesn’t mean anything has changed other than the title. It’s locked in. Follow.

    Even if they slid over to the LDS. The root is still there. Follow.

    Thanks again for sharing Stamp. And thank you Shaggy. I finally get it.

  273. No sleeping dogs in Short Creek – they shot ’em all!

  274. Anderson Copper has new video on the DOJ lawsuit with Mike Watkiss:

  275. Hearing that Wayne Fischer and his wives were recently exed. now aint that a b*tch

  276. Wayne Fischer and his wives too? So wives got exed too?

  277. with the new United Order requirement, men and women can and will be exed.

  278. Wayne’s a real peach, he gave his 12 year old daughter to Warren to rape.

  279. re: Wayne Fischer. Any idea where he is now?

  280. I really wish someone – state or feds would have expanded on the Texas trials and convicted the parents of these children for child endangerment or some other charge for not stopping it – plus Naomi for assisting in it.

  281. I think the Texas authorities would try Naomi if they could find her.

  282. re: Wayne Fischer. Any idea where he is now?

    It could be interesting to see, if he stays, if his power and water will be shut off, just like the others who aren’t part of the group.

  283. PT, Henrietta Lacks (a black descendants of slaves and slaveowners from rural Virginia) doesn’t have to wait for the lifting up or the rapture or the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse or anything else for immortality. Since before her life ended in 1951, her cancer cells have been immortalized in freezers, test tubes, and petrie dishes literally the world over in unbelievably huge numbers and at a rate of unprecedented reproduction. They then took over any sample they were merged with, causing widespread “contamination” of what were thought to be pristine tissue samples for medical research. They were harvested without her consent at Johns Hopkins from her cervical tumor and cultivated then marketed all over the world. You can now order them off the internet, but I wouldn’t if i were you. It’s an utterly fascinating book that I originally heard about on NPR. Author is Rebecca Skloot. I’ll bet Henrietta Lacks didn’t have to wait for some priesthoodlum to pull her through the veil to the other side.

  284. I hope Wayne does stay, changes his ideology, saves his children, and “sticks it to the man.”

  285. re: Wayne.. Is he at YFZ, CC, or SD or somewhere else? any idea?

  286. with the new United Order requirement, men and women can and will be exed.

    Anonymous said this on June 27, 2012 at 1:10 PM

    Can you tell us what else is in the new United Order requirement? When was this established? Is this where the no sex edict was listed or is this the new edict with only the 15 having sex?

  287. Since when is the “united order” new?

  288. Still laughing over the priesthoodlum comment. Haven’t heard that description before…

  289. VDQ, I like to think I’m pretty funny but far as I know credit for that term goes to Stamp.

  290. It’s definitely a keeper.

  291. Wayne didn’t stay, he and his wives handed over their children and left.

  292. Please, that can’t be anon. Are you sure? ET?

  293. Wayne Fischer gave his 12 year old daughter to Warren to be raped. How can you not believe that he turned all of his other children into the priesthood and left with his wives?

  294. Checking it out, TC.

  295. Apparently it’s true, and in my experience, not at all surprising. It’s simply expected. Being in some level of shock at being booted – off balance as it were – and understanding all your faithful life that all children “belong” to the priesthood, not you, the parents, nope… not surprising at all. It’s later when and if they “wake up” to the ugly truth that the devastation of leaving their children hits them.

  296. True true E.Texas…something i live with everyday!

  297. Vodouqueen, you are on the right track. The Monoga-Nazis are good people, but they get irate when someone steers the conversation to fundies outside of the twisted example of the FLDS. This is because without that group, their argument kinda sorta goes up in smoke. Unfortunately for the sake of your research, most of the positive examples remain underground due to the legal and social stigmas and the fact that they don’t want to jeopardize their standing with the mainstream LDS Church. Good luck.

  298. Thanks, just what I needed to hear this morning 🙂

  299. But… none of that is true.

    No one is a nazi.

    No one has gotten irate.

    Lots of empirical data showing polygamy out of Africa, muslims, various churchs in America, and assorted fundamental mormon churchs have abundant and chronic problems.

    There is a lot of smoke with polygamy and hence a lot of fire. The FLDS just have more than their fair share.

    And a few “positive examples” doesnt really clean the rug.

  300. Oh the last line too. “Jeapordize standing in the LDS Church”

    I know of very few who are on this board who admit to being LDS, and I am convinced the one/s I know of DONT practice it.

    That said, its no big secret some LDS may practice it despite LDS church mandates, but they likely never post here nor do they let themselves out of the closet much – an exception being a principle in Idaho fired for lying about trying to – and succeeding in – getting a young teacher or teachers aide as another wife.

    I guess decriminalization would result in a rash of similar cases, weee wouldnt that be fun?!?

  301. Well, in other news, the FLDS (along with the rest of the US) will now have to obtain healthcare insurance or face a tax.

  302. To Stamp: I admit I ama an active LDS member who holds and uses an LDS temple recommend. I absolutely do not practice polygamy and do not approve of it as a lifestyle. Granted there may be a few people who practice polygamy without the abuses we are so familiar with from the flds. Since the flds are the largest mormon fundie group that practrices polygamy I cannot see giving polygamy the approval of lesser penalties.

  303. I’ve heard from relatives in CC/Hildale – 50 people were exed out,no more meeting until they’re raptured/lifted up & also any man who sex with his wives without children is killing spiritual children & being exed out,according to this a man can’t use birth control/ contraceptives or he’s exed out for killing spiritual children,makes me wonder how many spiritual children WSJ killed thru masturbation!!!! You can’t fix poop or stupid….LOL other-Anon

  304. You can’t fix poop or stupid….LOL other-Anon
    Anonymous said this on June 28, 2012 at 11:31 AM

    other-Anon – based on your post I think you need to re-phrase you standing line (although I love your use of it) to ….you can’t fix insanity or ….you can’t fix bat s__t crazy. Stupid just doesn’t really explain it anymore.

    just how can someone really kill a spiritual anything?

  305. Yes, one must leave the Mormon faith and travel to the other side of the globe and visit a bunch of 3rd World countries before they can find polygamous groups as reprehensible as the FLDS.

    There are more independent Mormon Fundamentalists than there are in all the organized Fundie groups combined. Many of them are independent because they are still members of the LDS Church in good standing. Some eventually get outed and “Cast into outer Darkness” (Exed).

    Also, with all the FLDS excommunications of late, it is quite likely that they no longer outnumber the AUB.

  306. Are non-chemical techniques (condoms, and others I can’t mention here) also considered to be murder, or is that only applied to chemical techniques like a pill?

  307. I have heard it applies to all birth control, not just chemical ones.

  308. By hearing that new ordinance, does that mean that sex outside the rhythm method (with the effort made only at egg drop time for a potential pregnancy), when there is less chance of a pregnancy, is this now murder of sky babies?

    Which as someone mentioned would make Warren quite the flds suspect, seeing he spent so much time spraying the walls of his cell without a child in sight.

  309. WG,, fundies & LDS believe you’re born spiritually before being born physically,so WSJ thinks contraception is unholy, you can’t fix insanity or bat sh_t crazy….other-Anon

  310. Not worried that eliminating the FLDS would stop all the craziness and lack of ethics of fundamentalist Mormons. I think the Kingstons, LeBarons and UAB all have their own special talents as well.

  311. The Kingstons are definitely more reprehensible than the FLDS. Thanks Betty, I forgot about them. The LeBarons are in Mexico; another 3rd world country. They seem to have toned it down quite a bit since their days of being the homicidal polygamous group.

    The only dirt I’ve seen on the AUB is the $6 million settlement; hardly an indictment on the families within the group. If the other groups would model themselves after the AUB (minus the $6 million slip up), it would be hard to argue that many of the problems associated with Mormon Fundamentalism would be eliminated.

  312. *hard to disagree, not argue. Sorry.

  313. WG,, fundies & LDS believe you’re born spiritually before being born physically,so WSJ thinks contraception is unholy, you can’t fix insanity or
    bat sh_t crazy….other-Anon

    Anonymous said this on June 28, 2012 at 2:15 PM

    sorry to be so dense, I was not raised LDS or FLDS – how is using contraception mean you are killing? So if a woman drops an egg and there is no sperm there becuase there is no sex allowed, then how is that any different?

  314. WG,, take that up with the fundie groups or the LDS ,I’m no longer a fundie,havent been for years,they can explain their beliefs on that subject better than I can ……other-Anon

  315. well I also never understood it from the catholic point of view either.

  316. I think this explains it pretty well:

  317. I guess it neednt be said that inter racial sex is extra special evil among fundies.

    Well I said it anyway.

  318. The AUB had a couple of extremely heinous sexual abuse perpetrators – one was right hand man to Owen Allred. Allred was devastated, as I understand it. Really sick stuff.

  319. Lehi Police Report on Brown investigation on

  320. I cannot recall whether I posted this article before, and maddeningly, I can’t easily find a date on it – Janet Bennion on the contributing factors to sexual abuse among females in fundy mormon communities.

  321. TC thanks for posting a timely reminder
    cement I rarely watch You Tube links, but I got a very good laugh from your answer to why “semen” is special

    TC I am not really interested in wading through the Brown investigation, can you give us the Cliff notes?


  322. Dozens more exed for sex ban violations:

  323. Thanks for the laugh cement. I had never seen that before.

  324. nice post Chemist.

  325. Thank You watergirl.


    Interesting that she notes DOJ suit is a civil suit not criminal. I didn’t catch that.

  327. I think the reason it is civil is that there can be more severe wide spread penalties rather than just putting 1 or 2 in jail and having others take their place.

  328. Absolutely not PT, the feds don’t bring a criminal case because they can’t or don’t want to. I worked for the feds for too long to believe different. A RICO indictment could bring down 20 at a time. IMO. CYA.

  329. But I think their aim is to shut the town down. Look at who was targeted in the case.

  330. And if they target 20 men, 20 more will be moved in to replace them. This way they are targeting entities that can be shut down.

  331. If it does anything, it backs up the claims of abuse and should help the SCOU and the 10th circuit court make the right calls.

    Once the real estate has been handed out to all the exed peeps it will never be the same.

  332. Yeah, probably right PT.

  333. I was just looking at the various FLDS inmates and Wendell Nielsen is eligible for parole 5/22/13. That is 1 year after he was sentenced to 10 years.

  334. Merril is eligible for parole 11/30/12.

  335. How can a 10 year sentence come up for parole in one year? Pretty sure that can’t happen here.

  336. I’ve never heard of it happening here.

  337. Janae Thorne-Bird was arrested in Utah on multiple charges. But the last I heard was that she wouldn’t plea on a deal. Whatever happened?

    She was a “sister wife” to Kody Browns sister. Christy Brown. From what I remember of the story, is that when Janae left the “lifestyle” she had to leave her 10 kids. “Christy Brown and King ” raised the kids.

    What is the scoop with “Christy Brown” ?


  338. Does anybody know if the Browns have a website? Maybe some people who are interested can access that website,like Walton….I’m not interested in them… other-Anon

  339. I’m not really interested in the Browns either, except that two of the wives are relatives. I’ll stop posting about them (which i rarely have) if folks would like, and I certainly think you all know that i am completely uninterested in the “sister wives” blog given it’s tone. I’m ashamed to admit a small amount of interest in the show, given my family history.

  340. Here’s what the San Angelo paper has to say about the DOJ lawsuit.

    Interesting there is no mention of Utah LE saying it’s about time action was taken, just the AZ officials.

  341. IMHO, there are two reasons behind most people’s religion. First is to make them feel like continuing the status quo and staying in their mental comfort zone is righteous. Second is to ensure that the babies that men raise are their own in a time before paternity tests.

  342. No offense to people who’s spiritual growth is a little more developed than that. There are people who have good motivations behind their religion. Sadly, they are in the minority.

  343. What I understand a parole board has to review Wendell’s & Merrill’s time in prison & if they had reformed enough to warrant parole, that’s up to the parole board to make that judgment, along with feedback from prison guards,superintendents & the warden ……..other-Anon

  344. But usually in Texas you have to serve at least 1/2 of your sentence before you are eligible for parole and it appears to be that way for all of the sexual assault convictions. Wendell and Merril appear to be eligible for parole after 1 year of a 10 year sentence.

  345. Maybe they gotta let them out early because the Dirty Dozen is part of the Frisky Fifteen who are the new farm studs.

    Which brings up an interesting question, who is servicing Warrens stable of 80 prison widows?

    Enquiring minds want to know!

  346. Good one, Chaps. Though I suspect that if Wendell & Merril do survive prison, being ‘elevated’ to the Frisky Fifteen would surely do them in.

  347. It has to have something to do with the kind of crime it is and not the 10 year sentence. Raymond got a 10 year sentence and his parole eligible date is 5 years after sentencing.

  348. Maybe they gotta let them out early because the Dirty Dozen is part of the Frisky Fifteen who are the new farm studs.

    A new form of ‘community service’??

  349. “Service” at any flds facility for any reason has to be at the risk of life, limb, and respect…

    Not to mention a possible long visit to a nearby correctional facility.

  350. Please continue on General Discussion #78

    Thanks – Admin

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