General Discussion #76: The Witness Wore Red

Rebecca Wall Musser is a courageous woman who stepped up to the task of informing the Texas authorities what the volume of information they had meant. She did an awesome job.

She put her life on hold to help get the truth out about what was really going on behind the walls of the FLDS compounds.

~ by FLDS TEXAS on April 12, 2012.

414 Responses to “General Discussion #76: The Witness Wore Red”

  1. The KSL article had this photo link:

    Of interest was the person who took the photos, Tom Smart of the Dnews.
    He is the uncle of Elizabeth Smart. The photos in the DNews article were also taken by Tom Smart.

  2. This link was posted earlier on previous thread:

    Check out photos on left margin of article, more photos of Ms Rebecca Musser, also taken by Tom Smart. Hope Mr. Smart gives a copy of article to his niece Elizabeth Smart.

  3. I think Becky did an amazing job.

    I also think it is Karma that Elizabeth Smart’s uncle was the one to take the pictures for Becky’s first ever speaking event.

    Can’t wait for more information on her foundation – Claim Red Foundation – and details on how we can help her. It’s the least that can be done for all that she has done. I also want to read her book so I’ll be putting in a pre-order as soon as I’m notified it’s possible.

  4. I’ll be pre-ordering too!

  5. I’ll be ordering her book the moment it’s available. I hope there’s a Kindle edition.

    BTW, that’s not the most flattering picture of Becky. There’s some weird lighting on that stage.

  6. I am assuming she waited until all the trails were over to begin speaking in public. You go girl!

  7. Hmmm. So much to-do on how she looks. I think she’s been sexually exploited and objectified quite enough… Let’s listen to and support her message on behalf of all the other girls and women who still need help.

  8. I believe there are plenty of women who need help… for instance, Lenora Allred Barlow. I just dont buy the whole kicked down the door and good little hubby called the cops story. However, on that same note, I know many, many women in polygamist relationships who do not need help. They do just fine and are competent independent people. The ones who are in ANY relationship, polygamist or monogamist, they should be our focus. Lets just be careful to not confuse the issue.

  9. What I meant was, the ones who are in ANY relationship that is abusive, physically or otherwise… should be our focus.

  10. Polygamy, it’s in the family. Many people are aware that Mitt Romney has polygamous ancestors, but if elected he would not the the first US President with grandparents, great grandparent who are polygamous. President Barrack Obama grandfather & great grandfather practiced plural marriage. From a KSL article:

    “His great-grandfather, Obama Opiyo, had five wives, including two who were sisters. His grandfather, Hussein Onyango, had at least four wives, one of whom, Akumu, gave birth to the president’s father, Barack Obama, before fleeing her abusive husband.”

    Sound familiar, sisters married to the same man, plural wife fleeing husband. So who ever wins the election will be descendants of polygamy, polygamy it’s in the blood. IMO Nuffer’s nomination would not be stopped because of his ties to plural marriage, President Obama couldn’t use polygamy as a reason to not nominate Nuffer as a judge, to do so would be to attack his own family as polygamists.

    The man who wins the Presidential election in the fall, is a man with plural marriage as his heritage.

  11. Ms Musser’s perspective, of life inside and the trial, should be fascinating! I also am lookimg forward to her book.

  12. Here’s an article on the tie of polygamy to both Presidential candidates from the Washington post. Mitt Romney is not the first person with plural marriage in his family, President Obama is the first President elected with a heritage of plural marriage.

  13. Im surprised we find it news to say that this man in political office, or that man in political office has times to plural marriage. I wonder how many of our elected officials are products of illegitimate cohabitations? To me this is hardly news worthy, as I highly doubt the ancestry of polygamy prohibits or promotes a worthy candidate. Their ability to govern, rule and lead is not, surprisingly enough, in direct connection to their polygamous association.

  14. that would be *ties to plural marriage, not times. sorry its late.


    Story on Human Trafficking in Utah.

    If the link doesn’t work, google “Human Trafficking in Utah”

  16. I have been waiting for a gal from a prophet’s harem to spill beans, and Becky’s book I DEARLY HOPE will create tons of “marvy-poo” headaches for flds..There may never be another former flds girl or woman for years to come with enough fearlessness to do what Becky is doing now and plans to do. There have been several who have tried very hard to expose the nonsense, (Flora, Carolyn, Elissa, the Mackert women, etc.)–but one from the prophet’s harem? This is gonna be some real reading, folks.

    And think about it- no matter what flds may cook up at this point to try to stop Becky’s accounts of flds goings-on– they still won’t be able to silence what will be coming out. More and more will come out as the days and weels pass, and plenty more people already have the damaging information, people that flds will not be able to get rid of.

  17. Didn’t one of WJ’s wives flee the CC compound a few months back? It’s difficult for me to keep them all straight. She went over a wall and into the night? Was that ever confirmed….or was she pressured back into the fold? I hadn’t seen anything recently.

  18. Unfortunately, she went back.

  19. I read that she was “returned to the fold” shortly after she was “helped to leave.” Honestly, who can say for sure the whole truth of such matters? flds routinely churns out lies to its faithful and to everyone else. I believe that the women and girls that have been deemed “worthy enough” to hang with warren jeffs himself are the ones deemed the least likely to ever tell anybody anything about the cult’s inner workings. As we all know, warren has been a cold-blooded, conniving, childish, but very feared (and “loved”)dictator since he took the flds throne. I can’t say exactly how he would have been able to assure himself on this loyalty about each of them, but it’s “how full of faith” they each are. In other words, how much do they truly seem to believe he is nigh unto God, and I would think it would be those who have demonstrated somehow that they would actually forfeit their lives for warren. He wouldn’t ever have taken any into his closest circle that he thought would waiver. Some of his “priesthood records” seem to indicate there have been a few that didn’t want to be intimate with him, that he’d been grooming for awhile- those waivering girls would have to be secreted away somewhere and certainly well indoctrinated into further fear, enough to last a lifetime if they ever divulged things to non-flds.
    This is why I say I think Rebecca Musser and her book is probably the closest we will get to hearing what kind of things have gone on around a “Profit” himself. Remember, one of the things Rebecca said of warren is that he told her “I will break you.” I believe she was one of only two of Rulon’s “wives” that fled flds when Rulon died and immediately warren made it plain he meant to “marry” his father’s “widows.”
    When I heard those few months ago that one of warren’s younger gals (somebody said maybe age 25?) actually “ran,” I couldn’t believe she would ever say anything to anybody, or that she would actually remain outside flds. It’s all “too sacred” and the fear level regarding personal destruction, and fear of repercussions against people these girls+women love has been too high for too many years with such girls.

  20. If only Naomi could/would talk ….

  21. I don’t think any other wife of Rulon fled, just Becky. And yes, sadly the wife of WSJ who ran was lured back by her father and brothers. There is actually 1 wife of Warren’s who left. She’s out of the FLDS and holding her own against the cult. She isn’t talking and probably won’t, but she was definitely married to Warren and is now free of him.

  22. He got only 5 years for this from a Utah court.
    “The former first counselor of an obscure religious sect once based in Magna pleaded guilty Friday to having sex with a 15-year-old girl.
    Geody Harman, 38 — formerly of the Church of the Firstborn of the General Assembly of Heaven — pleaded guilty in 3rd District Court to one count of third-degree felony unlawful sex with a minor.”

  23. That makes me ill, chemist. A plea accepted down from felony rape in exchange for testimony against a fellow church pedophile. Sometimes that’s the only way to get the bigger conviction.

  24. Warren Jeffs video for upcoming broadcast from Biography channel:

    Interesting with clips from various peple envolved with conviction.

  25. Another clip from Biography Channel on the corrupt practices of FLDS & Warren Jeffs, the money angle, can we all say RICO!

    Video features Randy Mankin who speaks the truth about this organized crime syndicate in the guise of a religion.

  26. Wise Woman, I meant to comment right away but life gets in the way – I too was uncomfortable with the reference to Musser’s looks or appearance but I felt it was probably said in a spirit of support rather than bias. Kind of a “you go girl” kind of thing. But we can all pay more attention to the way we think about and phrase that sort of thing. Although we are related, I don’t know her but believe she is a beautiful woman inside and out. But the out doesn’t matter to me. I wish I could apply that same logic to myself!

  27. From the video links provided, it appears that the Biography program on warren jeffs will not be a whitewash. Wish I had the A&E channels available to me.

  28. Last night on National Geographic channel was a program on people leaving a cult. Brent Jeffs was on telling his story. It was done well I thought and gave Brent a venue to state how he felt about it all. Both his story and the other two – Mother and daughter from some other cult in Sacramento, Ca. Brent and Mother talked about being kicked out and begging to come back rather than they realizing and wanting out. It was a different spin then I expected. Daughter left when they demanded she physically discipline her small children.

  29. Chemist,

    Often the A & E channel will offer DVD’s of the program for sale. Check out their website after the first showing to see if they offer it. I know my local library will often get the DVD for me if I request it. The other option is to check out HULU or another web based program that lets you stream it to your computer. I often watch a lot of shows that way if I forget to tape it.


    web site for Biography and Warren Jeffs video’s

  31. Ah, today’s revelation by Son of Ahman.

  32. I just looked at Son of Ahman’s latest. I am so disgusted. What a shameless freak warren is. His ongoing outrageous claims to speak for God are a disgraceful affront to decency.
    Less important, but an obvious clue to his outright insanity, is his word usage. It is absolutely pathetic. No amount of yearning and straining for purity, by repeating words from truly great texts of long ago is going to deliver you, warren. You cruelly hurt so many people year after year, family after family, individual after individual. Now you are madly scrawling demented phrases and supposedly righteous terms to try to keep up the slavery over thousands of minds.
    How can any flds reading this take him seriously anymore? How?? I cannot see how even the most dedicated warrenite can swallow any of this. With the exception of also believing that warren is just so tried in the fire that he is simply exhausted and it’s all just a new excuse for them to revere him, for “suffering for his people.” I don’t think warren ever suffered for anybody or anything except his own sins and crimes.
    I looked at the videos about himn also. These people are simply a disgrace. The only good thing they do is dress modestly. That’s it. Everything else is absolutely a disgrace. I have looked at this stuff for over 7 years, and used to think a few of their ideas weren’t bad, like the diligent work ethic, etc. But I have changed my mind. They are goony, silly, crazy, pathetic, hypocritical freaks who have been abusing our country’s standards and laws, and each other, for many years.

  33. I think he’s losing his touch with his revelations. I didn’t one 1 “let my humble servant go free”. Do you think he has resigned himself to eternal incarceration?

  34. You would think he would say let me go and Wendell too. Wendell should get a mention after taking a bullet for him. and no natural disasters either.

  35. The entire “revelation” boils down to “I have the right to rule and God has told me so, and you don’t have the right to teach your religion.”

  36. The foreword or heading paragraph is essentially un-intelligible. Extremely poor grammar and puncuation.



  39. In spite of the general incoherence of WJ’s revelations, I do kind of like the phrase “dead-letter religious farcity”. If he wrote that himself, he’s still got it! Granted, he’s also the definition thereof.

  40. Mom, you and I often see eye to eye but this time you’ve just gone over the edge. Most people you find here won’t call you out on it, but when you group every past and present FLDS member into one category which you describe as “goony, silly, crazy, pathetic, hypocritical freaks ” you disservice all of us here. You cannot group 10K humans into one faculty, and there were and are years when many of these good but misguided people were not goony, silly, or pathetic, but sadly misguided by the beliefs and sacrifices of their grandparents. You are of course welcome to your opinions, and I often respect yours, but you are improperly generalizing about some of our grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins. Make no mistake, I condone none of the behavior we discuss, but I intensely dislike comments that group us all into one category and label us hopelessly stupid.

    Try to forgive me if I’m in a mood. Held my tongue all afternoon.

  41. Thanks, 3C… well stated and reflects my feelings as well.

  42. P.S. – I keep saying “Son of Ahman” when I mean “Son Ahman.” Big difference actually. You’d think It would be second nature by now… 🙂

  43. Speaking of that son of a Ahman, here’s the latest SLTrib take on ole Warrens latest.

    The comments are a laugh, appears that ole Warren has become somewhat anal retentive with this latest “revelation”

  44. Tribune’s story on the UEP Supreme Court

  45. I was so tired lastnight that when I finally sat down to watch the show, that I only caught maybe the last 15 minutes of the show.

    Must have been thinking real hard about stuff though, as my legs were jumping in my sleep and I woke up thinking of the song by roger miller called you can’t go roller skating in a buffalo herd.

    And I thought about this old vega car I had years and years ago. Guy said it was great on gas mileage. It was. Used more oil than gas. And then eventually didn’t move. Then the guy tried to sell me another vega. different color. But it was still a vega. I didn’t buy it.

    If anyone finds a link to the whole show, I would appreciate it a lot if you could share.

  46. The Polygamist’s Daughter has a new entry on her blog :

  47. Yes, I went over the edge. I am sorry. I get too angry. I won’t post anymore. This flds stuff is too much for me to handle anymore. Goodbye.

  48. P.S. I am seriously emotionally injured from my own adult children’s choices of the past two years, and am reeling. I made mistakes in my posts here, and I apologize. Best wishes to all of you continuing to resist polygamy activity in the US.

  49. Mom

    Dont feel like you have to go. Some people have family still in – even if thats not the case, we just need to recognize that the children and most women are victims, many men and boys too, they were born into it.

    I know its easy to lash out like they are all one mind but thats not the case.

    Look at Rebecca, Carolyn – – they too were once heavily involved – now just imagine – there are probably hundreds like them who wish they could escape. Its not easy, esp when the government doesnt really do anything to help.


  50. Mom,

    I’m trying to decide if it is helpful to weigh in here. I’m going to go for it, but I apologize in advance if this is too personal.

    “Yes, I went over the edge. I am sorry. I get too angry.”
    We’ve all been there. It’s an emotional topic – and it is easy to fall into sweeping generalizations. 3C was simply calling out an error -and your response here is a good way to acknowledge it and move on.

    “I won’t post anymore.”
    This misses the “move on” part.

    You are a valued part of the community. It’s important to keep things in perspective, to understand what you can and cannot change. You can’t single-handedly change the abuses of the leadership of the FLDS – or any other group that does evil things to people under their control. There are too many such groups to contemplate. It’s a big world out there with a lot of ugly – as well as beauty.

    A good way to go crazy or become miserable is to let yourself feel responsible for things outside of your control. By the same token, neither your kids, nor the FLDS, nor anyone else is responsible for your emotional distress – even if they do awful things. They are responsible for the consequences of their choices – but not for your response to it. Your response is sometimes the only thing you can control.

    This is something I had to learn the hard way as well.

    What you can do is continue to be a voice of reason. People do need to speak out when they see abuse. Eventually it will make a difference.

    Your strength lies in your ability to choose to grieve, rather than despair; to speak out with conviction rather than allow anger to turn truth into a dismissible rant. The alternative is to let the bad guys win without breaking a sweat. We need to at least make them sweat.

  51. Opps. That above comment is mine. I usually post as Jerrie – but WP asked me to log in – and I didn’t notice it used my (gasp) real name.

    I don’t mind having my real name out there, but I going back to posting as Jerrie -so that my comments don’t come up in searches on my name.

  52. Jerrie I for one appreciate your response to “mom.” …

    … and Chaps,
    not only are there hundreds “who wish they could escape,” there are hundreds of us out here who DID escape and are trying to make new lives while we grieve over so many of our loved ones still under the tyranny.

    There is nothing we can do until they choose to make a difference in their own lives. Whether members or former members, we are all well aware of how slippery the slope is when the decision to leave is made. Once made, life is never the same even for those who end up going back.

    Life in mainstream society is a major balancing act – even if one simply walks away and never looks back. I’m sure there are as many approaches to it as there are escapees, excommunicated, or abandoned who attempt it. We each have our personal battles and stories… so many stories!

  53. Yes, I went over the edge. I am sorry. I get too angry. I won’t post anymore. This flds stuff is too much for me to handle anymore. Goodbye.

    mom said this on April 17, 2012 at 2:36 PM

    Just to let you know, I think I hold the title for being top edge pusher/should say things differently and this story is driving me crazy position.

    I’ve seen a lot worse things said so please don’t stop posting. Take a two day break and watch some old Johnnie Carson shows on you tube.

    Write a real letter with a stamp and everything.

    Read the local news. Make it real interesting and read the back page. there is usually some weird stuff there.

    Caroline never quit. Becky never quit. Ruth is still out there. Isaac is still trying to get the word out.

    All those kids that were taken and sent back are still behind walls.

    CPark, the Allred Group and the kingstons have yet to see their day.

    Please don’t quit posting.



    A clip from the Warren Jeffs special on the Biography channel.

  55. The Polygamist’s Daughter has a new entry on her blog :

    Born in Brooklyn said this on April 17, 2012 at 8:55 AM

    I think everyone deserves to tell their story. And I am glad that they are sharing.

    What has my blood boiling is this: How many books lining the shelves will it take before we see something done to those that are doing the abusing?

    Safety Net
    Domestic Violence
    Homeless Programs
    Suicide programs
    Child Hope/Help Programs

    all programs to help the victims of such

    Where is the task force to end the madness? Who is in charge of stopping those who are breaking the law and adding the innocent to the victim list?

    Is there any one in charge?

    I didn’t get to see the Biography show. I was hoping that Amos would have something to say that might make sense of it all. But what ever was shown isn’t being talked about. Not here and not in the papers. Not that i guess it would make much difference. I’ve seen talk. I haven’t seen action.


  56. Anon. I had seen the clip earlier. I know my following comment is goinig to make some people do the fish face but if you listen real close, those guys could be talking about the LDS Church.

    The way that they talked about people fearing the FLDS is how some people feel about the LDS Church and the power that they have.

    But if people stop talking, the fear takes over and wins. computer hacking, phone calls being monitered, BS stories in the news. Sound familar? lol

    Yeah, it’s happening to more than just a few.

    Did I ever tell you guys that when I mow the lawn, I take a baseball bat with me. Not to hurt those snakes in the grass but to shoo them away. An old bat with a bat and her fishing hat. Gotta love the picture.

  57. The biography documentary was ok. They interviewed some usuals: Sam Brower, Ross Chatwin, Mrs. Chatwin (don’t recall the first name), Richard Holm and Brent Jeffs. They also interviewed the publisher of the Eldorado success, Eric Nichols, and a few others. No Flora, no Carolyn, and no Elissa Wall. They had lots of good pictures including some Warren-as-a-child pictures. Most of the footage was reinacted. It was basically “When men become Gods” the movie, only it took it all the way through Warrens TX trial. It aired on the heels of a Charles Manson documentary. It must be cult leader week.

  58. Mom – please don’t go. The last thing I want is for you to go away. Forgive me. I meant to be gentle. I don’t want you to go. What I said was truly what I believe – it took me hours to frame my response, but mostly because it was a busy day and I wanted to be in the right frame of mind. We welcome you here, just please don’t generalize us all so easily.

    I think everyone welcomes you here. I know I do.

  59. So what did Amos Guiora have to say? And how did they slide him into the biography?


  60. Ejay

    Not to minimize the many hundreds of brave, lucky, intellegent souls who made their escape… whether on their own or by chance or by boot.

    Kudos to those that make a life and look back not with anger but with acceptance they have much more opportunity to a wonderful life shed of daily mental and physical restrictions.

    There probably should be a therapy opportunity for said people instead of the broken wheel known as the “safety net”.

    Some obviously need it more than others, esp those that were suddenly and esp at a young, inexperienced age.

    I can think only of Dan Fischer who had the resources and inspiration to help people on a large scale, yet it seems inadequate with the job at hand.

    My best wishes to those that have made it out and those who look to get out. And all the victims in general.


  61. You folks here really confuse me in the respect of polygamy being such a terrible society to live in, abuses, brainwashing, welfare fraud, etc. Are not many of you aware of Abraham and Jacob and Solomon having many wives and concubines and the which many religions and peoples all through the world have great respect for these men? If Jesus allowed his servants here to have more than one wife isn’t it a logical assumption that Jesus himself has many wives in heaven not to mention that he had wives while on the earth, too? According to the Catholics, Jesus is definitely a polygamous because were he to appear on the earth right now then that would make all the Catholic nuns his wives and there are thousands them!! Oh my word Jesus Christ is a polygamist!! Now what’s amazing is that thousands upon thousands of mainstream Mormons believe that this same Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith and restored the true church in the earth. Lo and behold Joseph Smith reads about David and Solomon having many wives and concubines and Lo and Behold he recieves the famous section 132 in the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Smith didn’t come up with this on his own. It’s in the Bible and many people believe the Bible in the world. Is the Bible wrong in regards to a man having more than one wife?? Joseph Smith had over twenty wives including one he married at the ripe old age of 15 years old named Helen Kimball. Then we have Brigham Young having over twenty wives and John Taylor had around 5 wives! These are great and good men to many in the LDS yet suddenly 100+ years later polygamy is a bad, bad thing. Not all LDS could give up polygamy so hence we see the many off shoots of the LDS Church. Many accuse these off shoots of being brainwashed yet they are simply living their religious beliefs(the most notable being the FLDS). And here is what’s interesting to observe. Does the Bible specify the age a female can be married into a monogamist or polygamist relationship? In LDS doctrine does it give any age? I have found nothing. This explains why many men in the FLDS were found marrying 14, 15, 16 year olds. Interesting to observe that Joseph Smith would be sitting in a Texas jail cell along with all these other men were he to be living today. Many on this blog have made it quite apparent that marrying 14, 15, 16 year olds is wrong because it is against the law. Okay, but the FLDS solved this by saying that they would no longer be doing underaged marriages. I hope all of you on this blog remember Willie Jessop announcing this at YFZ. So far, at leaste that I’ve been aware, they’ve been truthful. No underage marriages have happened since then. I can’t prove it, but it can’t be proved they have, either. Does that mean they are going to stop marrying 14, 15, 16 year olds. No. But as long as the state they are living in allows it then that means no laws are being broken. Are there bad polygamist men? Yes. Are there good polygamist men? Yes. Just like there are good and bad all through every society in the world. Is there monogamist people on welfare? Yes. Do monogamists do underage marriages? Yes. Does that mean monogamy is bad, bad, bad?? No. So I hope those reading this catch my point. As far as Warren Jeffs and the Texas evidence? I haven’t been able to find scriptural evidence backing up what he has done excepting his own revelations telling him to do so. Which begs the question, is he the legitimate successor to Joseph Smith?

  62. Back then you could own slaves just as easily as well.

    In fact, there isnt that big a difference between slavery and polygamy, at least with how its practiced today by various abusive cults.

  63. Anonymoust 4/18 12:10 PM. It is not logical to assume that Jesus has many wives in heaven, just because some of the men in the Old Testament had wives on earth. Jesus was very clear on marriage in heaven; there isn’t any. Matthew 23:30.

    There are so many things wrong with your screed that I don’t really have time to answer it. But just for starters – Joseph Smith was in jail when he was killed. Brigham Young had over 50 wives. If you believe the FLDS would not marry whoever the prophet tells them to marry then you really are not paying attention.

  64. To everyone, remember two things: don’t talk about religion & politics,because there’s always some body who will disagree with you wholeheartedly, at least that’s what I was taught…..other-Anon

  65. Many on this blog have made it quite apparent that marrying 14, 15, 16 year olds is wrong because it is against the law.
    Anonymous said this on April 18, 2012 at 12:10 PM

    I can’t speak for everyone on this blog, but I would say this statement cuts to the heart of the issue.

    Marrying 14, 15, 16 year olds is not wrong because it is against the law. It is against the law because our democratic society came to the conclusion that it is wrong and supported the passage and enforcement of laws to stop or curtail the practice.

    Our laws ban many other practices found in the bible as well. The presence of slavery or polygamy in biblical accounts does not necessarily mean God approves or commands such things. It just means they were practiced at the time certain biblical events occurred. “Description” is not the same thing as “Prescription”.

    In fact, there is at least one example of human sacrifice in the bible by a man who was approved by God: (Judges 11:30-39). Does this indicate God approves of human sacrifice? That would be hard to argue in light of many, many verses that specifically call it out as evil: (2 Kings 16:3, Psalm 106:38, Jeremiah 19:4-5).

    Older men marrying minors is wrong because the young girls do not have the power, experience or means to make a free and full choice about what they want to do with their lives. Your description is pretty heavy on the rights and behavior of men – but seems to treat the women involved as afterthoughts. Those “14, 15, 16 year olds” are human beings with the same rights and responsibilities as men.

    Polygamy requires a steady supply of willing brides, yet not many women sign up for it of their own free, adult will – unless they have been raised from birth to believe it is they way God wants them to live. There are exceptions – but not enough to keep the system going. When adult women do make that choice – free of financial and family pressure, that is one thing. When young girls are pressured into it – that is hugely exploitive.

    When men gain power and status before God and man through multiple marriages – the temptation to secure a steady supply of brides through any means necessary gets pretty strong. There may be good men involved, but the system itself creates a powerful incentive to exploit young girls by limiting their experience and options and then pushing them into marriage and motherhood before they are capable of choosing for themselves.

    I’m not calling the men involved evil nor am I suggesting that all the women are victims. However, the system clearly creates powerful incentives for leaders to exploit young girls and expel excess young men. If some behave honorably in the face of temptation, good for them.

    I understand that these folks are born into this lifestyle and most sincerely believe they are honoring God by living the way they do.

    You can’t judge actions based on sincerity, however. You have to stay focused on the bigger picture: the impact actions motivated by sincere belief have on other individuals and society. The men who flew planes into the World Trade Center were so sincere about their faith, they were willing to die for it.

    This is a system that clearly can’t survive on the scale called for by faith-based polygamous teaching without exploitation. That is why it needs to stop.

  66. Anyone watch the Warren Jeffs episode on Biography? Thoughts? #FLDS #polygamy #Utah #Texas

    Twitter from StLTrib

  67. This story about WJ is nothing new for him,he said hid dad had the mind of a child, I knew Rulon Jeffs & had more respect for Rulon than I did for WJ , they are/were as different as night/day, I believe WJ is an accomplished LIAR & I also believe he wanted/wants power/control over all his sheeple, did he give his dad pain drugs like demirol,oxicotten & vicodin? IMO he did,he wanted his dad out of the way,so he could have power/control over thousands of sheeple, it’s possible he way overdosed his dad & killed him IMO……other-Anon

  68. Jerrie
    nice reply

  69. With an about even split between male and female baby births no closed society or group can practice polygamy where each male has 2 or more wives. The group must expel some males, practice male infanticide or selectively recruit females from outside the group. Just not enough females to provide each male with more than one wife.

  70. In the A&E clip titled Taking Control who are the guys standing in a group wearing badges? Are they from Arizona? and what branch of LE?

    What did Amos have to say? It had to have been good. imo he doesn’t fart around with talking in riddles.

    What else did Randy have to say?

    I’ve been looking for a link where I can watch the whole thing, I can’t find one.

    Someone mentioned Dan Fischer earlier. I personally have found his words to be inspiriing. I would love to hear more from him. Mom, if your reading here is a link to his story and some of the info he has shared.



  72. The Eldorado Success newspaper has set up a facebook account:

    If you like them let them know.

  73. But chemist, I thought you followed the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young,

  74. LDS perspective piece on FLDS:


  76. I quit doing facebook because I found it to be unsafe. I have said it before and I don’t have a problem saying it again. I like the Eldorado Success and I like Randy and Kathy and Co.

    I don’t much care for Paul Murphy.

    Anon. I’ve seen those clips. I want to see the whole thing. My head was tired, my legs were tired, my body was tired. And the Lazy Boy has a way of knock’n me out. 123 out. I only saw maybe 10-15 minutes if that.


  77. I think I saw two of those guys with badges in that were in that clip before. And I think it had something to do with the Arizona shooting. So who are they?

  78. TC: I follow the teachings of the present day LDS church. Some of what JS and BY said in the 1800s is as pertinent to me as Martin Luther’s teachings on Jewish people are to current day Lutherans. The fundamental poly gtroups just cannot get around the numbers problem. Trying to do so leads to underage marriage, lost boys, a caste system, expulsion of men while retaining women and girls, etc, etc.

  79. Does anyone know if Wendell Nielsen has started serving his 10 year sentence yet? He’s not showing up in the Texas judicial system yet.

  80. I was under the impression that he was taken into custody directly after sentencing. Texas may have him in a “processing ” center for up to 30 days before he is assigned a permanent residence.

    PW aka ambiguous aka kouldbemeuknow (so many log ins do little time)

  81. NEW: Texas Appeals Court upholds child sex assault conviction of #FLDS member Raymond Jessop. @fox13now #Utah #polygamy

  82. That makes sense, chemist.

  83. Copy of the court ruling on Raymond Jessop


  84. I’ll bet some holy gentlemen at the ranch ordered a case or two of turkey basters just for better “plausible deniability” in the future. Pretty soon the “Turkey Baster Defense” may be taught at law schools across the land! Well, maybe not given how well it worked.

  85. RE: Anonymous said this on April 18, 2012 at 12:10 PM

    Great post Jerrie. I also want to add a few items: 1) people in the old testament lived very short lives and had to procreate early. That is no longer the case. 2) Science has proven that children’s brains and reasoning is not fully developed until 20+ years old. Reasons for delaying adult acts such as marriage until they are old enough to fully comprehend it. Not to mention the right for these children to decide for themselves their own destiny.

    Arguing that it is in the Bible is not even remotely valid for me given many FLDS have been known to kick out their young men and treat them like trash. Until these families treat their own young men and women with dignity and respect you can talk all you want but, you will NEVER convince me.

  86. Here’s the San Angelo newspapers take on the Raymond Merril Jessops appeal being denied:

  87. It gave me the creeps to read that 12:10 post by anonymous.It is one of the finest examples of brainwashing that I have seen lately on this board.NO talk of FORCED marriage.NO talk of ripping families apart and trading them around like baseball cards.NO talk of an uncle taking his brothers thirteen year old daughter as if she is a piece of lawn furniture.All I heard was this persons dumbass excuse for a bunch of old lechers to stock their harem with children that should be out playing as children,NOT getting pregnant and raising babies.

  88. I will say it again,when it comes to the flds sheeple “you can’t fix stupid”….other-Anon

  89. I will never forget the conversation I had with Paul Lebaron as we were sitting on the tailgate of his truck one day.I learned first hand as to how the boys treated their own sisters and cousins. It was not very decent,but why would anyone expect them to be any other way? Look at their examples.

  90. Is there any scriptural backing to any of the things WSJ did? I ask this because, agree or not, WSJ was well versed in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and LDS doctrine. I’m asking some of you for help here. Take for example his heavenly sessions where he atoned for the sins of his followers. Is it written anywhere in the LDS Gospel that relates to these things? At the end of section 132 it does say there is more to be revealed on this subject. That’s a little backing up of what happened in the temple. And he writes of having to witness the evils of the world so then again, is there backing to this in the LDS doctrine and Gospel? Many of your minds could maybe bring some answers.

  91. . 2) Science has proven that children’s brains and reasoning is not fully developed until 20+ years old.

    watergirl said this on April 19, 2012 at 3:01 PM

    Amen to that! My kids are 16, 17 and 19 so I have a front row seat to this particular phenomenon :). I could not imagine any of them choosing to marry and settle down now. They are just getting started in life.

    People think it is only mothers of girls who feel protective of their daughters’ dating relationships. I have sons and I’m not happy when I pick up hints a girl is getting too serious!

    When they do marry, my hope is that they will be able to form lasting relationships based on mutual respect. I can’t picture any of my boys telling his wife she can or can’t work, must or must not dress a certain way or see certain people, will or will not have more (or any) children. They were not raised to believe they are entitled to control another person’s life.

    I don’t think girls who want their boyfriends or husbands to do their thinking for them do the relationship any favors either. I hope my sons’ future wives challenge them to be better people, not defer to them as if they were gods. (Just thinking about that makes me shudder!) If one of them acts like a jerk, his wife should be able to call him on it – and encourage him to mature. If she acts like a jerk, he should be able to call her on it and encourage her to mature as well.

    No one can expect to marry the perfect partner. The important thing is to marry someone you respect, whose company you enjoy and who shares your values. They should have the self respect to push back when their partner make inappropriate demands and they should be able to examine their own attitudes and behavior if their partner lets them know there is room for growth.

    I hope my kids’ marriages last for the right reasons: Because both partners love each other and work through their differences – not because one or both feel trapped by their faith, by finances or by other outside pressure.

    That’s a tall order. If they were choosing a marriage partner now – as teenagers, their chances for success would be much slimmer than if they wait until they have a better idea of who they are and what they want in life.

    Forced or coerced marriage is so far from what I want for my own kids that you might as well ask me to force them to leave school and spend the rest of their lives working in a factory – or some other dream killer. The very idea of forcing minor girls into marriage demonstrates a chilling lack of concern for the lives, dreams and futures of the girls involved.

  92. Is there any scriptural backing to any of the things WSJ did?
    Anonymous said this on April 19, 2012 at 5:43 PM

    I’ve never read the Book of Mormon, but I have read the OT and NT several times. A number of scriptures directly address WSJ’s actions. A few choice examples:

    Deuteronomy 22: 30 “A man is not to marry his father’s wife; he must not dishonor his father’s bed.”

    Deuteronomy 23:17 – “No Israelite man or woman is to become a temple prostitute.”

    Luke 3:19
    “…John rebuked Herod the tetrarch because of his marriage to Herodias, his brother’s wife, and all the other evil things he had done,”

    1 Timothy 4: 1-4
    “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,”

    1 Corinthians 7: 12-14
    “If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.”

    1 Timothy 3:2
    “An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,”

    On the issue of marriage in Heaven, Jesus answers the question directly:

    Luke 20: 27-35 – “Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. ‘…Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. The second and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. Finally, the woman died too. Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?’

    Jesus replied, ‘The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,’ “

  93. I am not familiar with any LDS doctrine that says or implys that a mortal man can atone for the sins of another mortal man. jesus Christ performed the atonement for all of us. It is neither necessary nor possible for one man to atone for his own or another’s sins.

    LDS teaching is to abhor evil and to not see it or indulge in it.

  94. I got an e-mail from Isaac Wyler : bill for removing corrupt police is slowly making strides,several of us had a letter writing campaign we sent to a state congressman & it’s slowly working to removing them, also heard from Isaac that Jonathan Roundy resigned from chief of police for “personal reasons”…. I heard Ruth this morning singing church songs, of course she belives WJ is not at fault,has been framed & wronged, Jonathan, Ruth “YCFS: you can’t fix stupid”……other-Anon

  95. (Last set of verses, I promise 🙂 )
    On the issue of atonement: I’m not very familiar with LDS doctrine, but I believe LDS do also follow the Bible, correct?

    I realize interpretations vary, but here is a quick summary of the basic doctrine that is accepted by most traditional Christian faiths:

    OT atonement is made necessary by the law -which all humans violate. It is made possible through the system handed down by Moses – and relies, in large part, on animal sacrifice made for the people by the priests. The great majority of Christian denominations teach that NT does not contradict that system. Rather it completes it. The old system was symbolic of the more perfect system promised through prophecy and fulfilled through Christ. Jesus fulfills of the law and the prophets by dying on the cross (the ultimate sacrifice) and opening a direct path between man and God, through the Holy Spirit. Christ’s sacrifice is the *final* atonement. The Holy Spirit is the direct link between believers and God. Priests are no longer necessary to the process of salvation.

    Hebrews 7: 23-27:
    “Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
    Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.”

    Colossians 2: “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.”

    Hebrews 9: 27-28
    “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

    The WSJ prophecies and teachings I’ve read seem to rooted in Isaiah and Jeremiah. Prophetic literature had a common style and format -with a discernible message. WSJ’s version is a bizarre, barely legible riff on the idea – but in breaking all known rules of grammar, he creates an (sort of) impression of prophetic literature – without providing a message anyone could actually follow. There are no examples of this in the OT or NT. The language may be obscure – and the meaning open to interpretation -but biblical prophesies do at least follow a recognizable structure and do not rely on poor grammar to (attempt to) obscure meaning.

    Regardless of his beliefs and teaching, -it’s still not OK to exploit children…

  96. saw this and thought of this blog:
    quote from JIMMY CARTER, “Losing My Religion for Equality”

    This view that women are somehow inferior to men is not restricted to one religion or belief. Women are prevented from playing a full and equal role in many faiths. Nor, tragically, does its influence stop at the walls of the church, mosque, synagogue or temple. This discrimination, unjustifiably attributed to a Higher Authority, has provided a reason or excuse for the deprivation of women’s equal rights across the world for centuries. At its most repugnant, the belief that women must be subjugated to the wishes of men excuses slavery, violence, forced prostitution, genital mutilation and national laws that omit rape as a crime. But it also costs many millions of girls and women control over their own bodies and lives, and continues to deny them fair access to education, health, employment and influence within their own communities…. The truth is that male religious leaders have had — and still have — an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter.

  97. Souond familiar?

  98. I got an e-mail from Isaac Wyler : bill for removing corrupt police is slowly making strides,several of us had a letter writing campaign we sent to a state congressman & it’s slowly working to removing them, also heard from Isaac that Jonathan Roundy resigned from chief of police for “personal reasons”…. I heard Ruth this morning singing church songs, of course she belives WJ is not at fault,has been framed & wronged, Jonathan,
    Ruth “YCFS: you can’t fix stupid”……other-Anon

    Anonymous said this on April 20, 2012 at 10:47 AM

    I really like Isaac Wyler. Please tell him that there are people out here thinking of him and his family. I would think that his family would be very proud of his standng up and speaking out.

    I also like Ruth. I like Ruth a lot. She is far from stupid. imo she has a better knowledge of some things that are going on that those in the circle calling themselves educated or professional.

    There are a LOT of secrets that have been left untold. Calling someone stupid doesn’t make it so.

    Ruth is not stupid and I think you are out of line when saying that about people.


  99. Sound familiar?
    Betty said this on April 20, 2012 at 2:10 PM


    This sort of movement is not sustainable on a large scale in this country – if women have real choices. The issue is making sure they are free to choose their own lifestyle.

    I have no problem with women who choose to stay home. I stayed home and home-schooled my own kids for more than eight years. (*Real* homeschool. One son is a West Point cadet and one will attend Stanford in the fall.) I’m have also been married to the same man – the father of my kids – for 22 years.

    I think children absolutely benefit from growing up in a stable family – however I don’t think families can be made stable by force – and encouraging women to mindlessly defer to their husbands or fathers is a recipe for disaster. How many flawlessly wise men have you met in your life? I’ve never met any either. (Women neither, but that’s not my point…) We are all nitwits in our own way. When you start deferring to some men as spiritual gurus simply because they are male – way too many of them begin to believe their own press. The results are rarely pretty. (I think women would behave equally badly -but they don’t get the opportunity to prove it as often.)

    The serious problems begin when these groups grow dissatisfied with the results of merely teaching their their beliefs – and turn to more coercive measures to force girls to comply. I don’t think we have the right to tell other groups what they can or cannot believe, but I believe we do have an obligation to step in when the behavior begins to violate human and constitutional rights of members born to such groups.

    Girls should not be treated as pawns in a cultural war. Religious groups cannot claim the right to control them as though they were property rather than people. As soon as a religious group begins to control women and girls by effectively cut them off from the rest of the world, limiting their experience, education and options – then the legal system should step in to guarantee their access to the benefits of life in a free society.

    If your religious message is compelling, people will follow it of their own free will. If they don’t, you can’t start forcing the issue.

    Families in this country cannot be allowed to raise children like feedlot cattle such that their “choices” are choices in name only.

    (In my humble opinion, of course.)

  100. pretty nausea inducing article and yes it does sound very very similar. the single missing item was the polygamy

  101. Since Shurtleff is not running for AG, could a new AG finally investigate FLDS?

  102. No. It’s still Utah.

  103. So, if we change the name from Utah to Texas 2, maybe things will change? 😀

  104. Lorin Holm is still making progress. He got overnight visits with this kids and the right to take them out of state on vacation this summer. The Judge also found out about his son telling the children that Lorin wasn’t their father and he had no right to interfere in their lives.

  105. I hope Lorin continues to make progress and the children can learn that they are loved and wanted by him.

  106. I’m so glad she wore red

  107. i hope Lorin will eventually get full custody.

  108. Here is some interesting discussion on SB1433, the AZ bill to abolish the Colorado city police dept. It seems that the Fundie Mormon ilk have some supporters in the legislature. Watch it from about the 18 minute mark.

  109. 🙂 Bring me more Anon. @ 12:23

    The FBI is working on stuff.
    Tom Horne is doing what he said he would do.
    People are speaking out.


  110. Here is the link to the Lorin article:|topnews|text|Frontpage

  111. Hi anon 12:23 a.m.
    could you summarize the video parts? I can’t make the link on this slow computer.

  112. From the Holm case, anybody know the ‘new daddy’ Peine? I wonder how connected he is.

  113. Does anybody know how many followers Willie has?

  114. There isn’t a “new daddy”, there is an older son of one of the women who is acting as “caretaker” of the family. As for how connected he is, right now he’s real connected because Warren and company don’t want to lose all those little girls to the outside world.

  115. so what and where are all Warrens wives during all this?

  116. Anon 1:40 – you mean the group being headed up by William Edson Timpson Jessop?

  117. TC, yes that’s the group I mean. I’ve heard he’s gathering all the booted from Warren’s fold.

  118. New photos of amphitheater of doom. Looks like they are beefing up the entrance to hold something massive.. maybe a statue of a pedophile named Warren.

  119. Anon 1:40 – you mean the group being headed up by William Edson Timpson Jessop?

    Third Cousin said this on April 23, 2012 at 3:11 PM

    do you mean the little guy who was Willies yes man during the Texas hearings?

    The funny little man with the red face that had the donated bikes and toys for his kids in Texas while ignoring his ready made families in the twin towns?

    That guy?

    Or do you mean Willie? the other law breaker? talkin’ walkin’ Willie?

    What ever happened to the other Willie from the first set of two Willies? the one who cashed other peoples checks? the one who kept Fred away from his family?

  120. Just an observation, but those seats are gonna be really hard. Hopefully they won’t have to sit for too long.

  121. Wow, how weird, the photos from pilot are excellent, guess Warren expects everyone to bow down before him. What a megalomaniac. Well we now know where idol will be placed.

    Thanks Anon 8:37

  122. Walton, you are confusing William (Will) Edson [Timpson] Jessop with Edson (Eddie) Porter Jessop, Jr.

    Eddie Jessop was the “funny little man” who had one of his wives and some of his children at YFZ.

  123. Just makes me sad…. so much skill, labor, money, time, determination, devoted to making real the delusions of a truly evil man…..

    Sure wish the courts would speed up cutting off the money supply by delivering the UEP into the individual hands of families, and by using RICO to claim the YFZ property…

  124. Maybe they are putting on their own Hill Cumorah Pageant.

  125. Thats the biggest cult compound in the US… Too bad cult compounds in the US dont have a very good track record for sticking around.

  126. Just makes me sad…. so much skill, labor, money, time, determination, devoted to making real the delusions of a truly evil man…..

    Sure wish the courts would speed up cutting off the money supply by delivering the UEP into the individual hands of families, and by using RICO to claim the YFZ property…

    hellohellogoodbye said this on April 24, 2012 at 7:15 AM

    Couldn’t agree with you more concerning the delusions. and boy oh boy if you could only see what I see.

    Delivering the UEP to ???

    Who owns what and how did they purchase such said property. The whole thing has been a scam built on deception and fraud. The laws state that no one should gain from illegal gotten gains. The UEP started out a good idea. And then… it was scam after scam and lie after lie. Dirty handshake after dirty handshake.

    If that wasn’t/isn’t bad enough the cover-up is just about as bad if not worse. imo


  127. Walton, you are confusing William (Will) Edson [Timpson] Jessop with Edson (Eddie) Porter Jessop, Jr.

    Eddie Jessop was the “funny little man” who had one of his wives and some of his children at YFZ.

    Anonymous said this on April 24, 2012 at 6:59 AM

    So are they talking about Willie walkin’ talkin’ Willie? who is supposedly now the other Willies (Will) shadow and spokesperson? or are they talking Willie Roy? or is Willie walkin’ talkin’ really Willie Roy?

    Speaking of cheese. Did Kraft American cheese quit making their 2# box? Why?


  128. “…is Willie walkin’ talkin’ really Willie Roy?”


  129. This whole thing is giving me the Willies! hahaha sorry i couldn’t help it!

  130. Free Willy!

  131. New 72 page-book of Warren Jeffs revelations mainly recycled, but I did count 3 new, @PaulMurphysLaw. Read ’em here:

  132. Well looked the “revelations” nothing new, just a reprint of old stuff, bound for file 13, aka the circular file cabinet. Guess ole Warren has got a case of writers block. Of course ole Warren could have PO’d the CO’s, and his revelations could be getting the big flush instead of the post office. Remember Warren, the CO’s & the warden are listening to every phone call, get out of line and AG Abbott is going the flush you and your posse even deeper into the cellosteel kingdom!

  133. Isn’t Mormon polygamy only supposed to have one Willie?

  134. Watched this….….

    These Bozos should be required to live in CCA for a month before they pontificate about what they obviously have no CLUE about. They are so concerned about the officers not having a black mark on their records? So they can go get other jobs? Who is going to hire cops that openly disregard
    the Law? The Law in Colorado City and Hildale has ALWAYS been disregarded scoffed and just plain refused. Kids hanging out the back of trucks… 12 year olds driving heavy machinery .. Seat Belts? hahahahaha
    Speed LIMIT? No thanks. The creeker 500 is a RACE that happens every day from Hurricane to CCA where the autobahn has been recreated by these egomaniacs. I have personally seen moving vehicle violations that would make it on Ripleys Believe it Or Not.. And they sit in their seats in the Arizona Senate WONDERING if they are doing undue harm to these Godless excuses for Officers of the LAW? Gee WIZZ.. OMFG

    Who pays these guys?

  135. Who pays these guys?

    Anonymous said this on April 25, 2012 at 1:21 AM

    They are giving them the chance to step up. What other department would put up with such things? They more then likely will be transferred out and do their job or not.

    Around here, people have been fired for less.

  136. “…is Willie walkin’ talkin’ really Willie Roy?”


    Anonymous said this on April 24, 2012 at 3:55 PM

    If walkin’ talkin’ Willie is really Willie Roy and Willie E. Timpson Jessop is really Willie E. hide em Uncle Fred Wiillie why isn’t he in jail?

    And if walkin’ talkin’ Willie is Willie Roy, how could he manage that large herd of cows and dirt digging business from south Dakota? There was rumor that he had something to do with some “pubs” in South Dakota.
    AND.. play the traveling man during these trials etc.?


  137. The link to the AZ Leg did not work. Can someone repost an accessible one? Thanks.

  138. Anon 1:21 – What house or senate bill is this?

  139. how big again is the Warren and little girl statue? Some on N&O think it will be on top of the metal bar entrance. But, seems it will have to be bigger than I remembered to be clearly visible there.

  140. sorry I should have said – some on SLC tribune think…. forgot which paper I was reading.

  141. kouldbe-

    This is what it says to the right of the screen player:
    Arizona House of Representitives
    Analyst- Michelle Hindman
    Asst. Analyst – Stephanie Johnson
    Intern: Patrick Devine
    SB – 1433

    There is some confusion imo concerning those that were investigated and “cleared” and then some ta do about having to go back 8 years looking for infractions.

    I don’t know if Arizona is a right to work state or not. I know that Utah is and Utah is getting to be known for the state that fires people for the stupidest things if they aren’t part of that circle.


  142. Thanks, Walton. Here is the summary of the bill in PDF format.

    Click to access h.sb1433_03-15-12_caucuscow.pdf

  143. Click to access sb1433s.pdf

    Click to access 1433gray916.pdf

    Click to access 1433gray916.pdf

    Click to access s.1433gov.pdf

    All of the above are links to the different adopted bills plus the videos.


  144. NEW: Divided #AZ house has rejected a bill to disband the Colorado City police department #polygamy #FLDS #WarrenJeffs

  145. Warren Jeffs appealing sexual assault conviction to #Texas high court with revelations from God via @sharethis

    From twitter

  146. I don’t know who is advising Warren, but they forgot to tell God who the appeal should be addressed to. He addresses his revelation to the Supreme Court of Texas and it is the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals who get criminal Petitions for Discretionary Review (PDR).

  147. I think God’s too busy laughing his @$$ off at Warren to take the ‘revelations’ seriously.

  148. Well, one tid bit from Warren’s so called revelations seems to indicate that Fredrick Merril Jessop got an arse whipping in prison.

    From Warrens BS revelation:

    Page 47, items 123 to 127

    Guess the boys in the cell block shower gave ole Fredrick a surprise party.

  149. A threatening part of Jefffs message against also appears about Elissa Wall, see also page 47 items 115 to 118

    Hope this is not coded message to harm Wall or Musser.

  150. Does anyone realize how bad the drought situation is in the West Texas area? If San Angelo gets little or no rain within eighteen months,water will have to be trucked in.Eldorado is not far from there.Wells are also drying up and falling at record levels.Nothing can exist without water,and the compound is no different. Things could easily come to a halt there .Warren needs to make sure that flooding is included in his foolish apocalypse rants.

  151. Here’s an interesting opinion piece that appeared in the San Angelo newspaper on subject Elizabeth Smart and her father. Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped in Utah in 02 by a polygamist named Brian David Mitchell, sort of a Warren Jeffs wannabe.

  152. Here’s the latest! Warren has sent this to the appeals court. This one has me ROFLMAO!

    Hey Warren, threatening appeals court justices is good for more life sentences, also not smart Warren, could get your visitation and phone privileges revoked, perhaps permanently.

  153. He even used Lehi’s legal name instead of the fake one he got after his father was exed and his mother remarried.

  154. The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia has ruled that 10 year olds are eligible for marriage. Maybe Warren Jeffs should have relocated and then he would not be in this situation.

  155. Not really news about Saudi Arabia, there is no minimum legal age there and previous clerics have set the age as low as 9. Sad, but not a new thing at all. However, there’s an error in the first paragraph of that article that makes it suspect as a news article. It says that the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia has influence over all of Islam. That is not true. For starters, “mufti” is a Sunni designation and means the chief cleric of a single country. So he has no power over shiites or over other countries that have their own mufti. There have been some reforms in age of marriage in the past few years in a number of islamic states, including Yemen which historically has been notorious for child brides. It’s slow and certainly the world human rights organizations need to keep up the pressure, but it does seem to be moving in the right direction.

  156. Warren truly is stranger than fiction. and yes, anonymous – they still have not found the cure for stupid.

    Robert it would be the ultimate in irony for the wells to dry up at YFZ. Not that I wish disaster on anyone. But, as many have said here before, it will be told to the sheeple – you are not praying hard enough.

    Reminds me of the old story of Samuel who lived by the river. Sheriff came in his patrol car to tell Samuel, come on, we have to leave the river is rising. Samuel said; “No I am not leaving my home; I am going to stay and trust in the Lord.”

    Next week sheriff showed up in a boat because the river rose. Samuel was on 2nd floor becuase 1st floor was flooded. He told Samuel, Come on, we have to leave the river is rising. Samuel said; “No I am not leaving my home; I am going to stay and trust in the Lord.”

    Next week Sheriff showed up in a helicopter because the river rose. Samuel was up on his roof. He told Samuel, Come on, we have to leave the river is rising. Samuel said; “No I am not leaving my home; I am going to stay and trust in the Lord.”

    Samuel drowned, went to heaven and met Peter at the pearly gate. Peter asked; “Why are you here according to the book of life you should not come for another 20 years.” Samuel said, “I don’t know I stayed and trusted in the Lord.” Peter went to ask God, and God said, “Tell Samuel I sent him a patrol car, a boat and a helicopter. He is here on his own accord.”

    This has been a joke in my family and church friends. Whenever bad things happen – we will ask ourselves – is this the patrol car, the boat or the helicopter. Maybe we need to rethink the situation. Sheeple need to start asking this of themselves. After all the convictions and now possible draught -they are at the helicopter for sure.

  157. Great analogy watergirl!!!

  158. From SLT:

    “Washington • The Senate Judiciary Committee signed off on the judicial nomination of Robert Shelby, who is now just one confirmation vote away from being Utah’s next federal judge.
    *Lee called Shelby, a partner in the Salt Lake City firm of** Snow, Christensen & Martineau, “a preeminently qualified lawyer with a very distinguished career both within and outside the legal profession. He’ll be an outstanding judge and I look forward to his confirmation.”

    *US Senator Mike Lee representing Utah. **Rod Parker’s law firm!!

  159. Wow, how weird, the photos from pilot are excellent, guess Warren expects everyone to bow down before him. What a megalomaniac. Well we now know where idol will be placed.

    Thanks Anon 8:37

    A Texan said this on April 23, 2012 at 11:12 PM


    Warren’s idol will be set up in this building.

    The huge pipes around the building in the ground are air ducts to keep the huge food storage cellar under the building cool.

    Anonymous 🙂

  160. “Divided #AZ house has rejected a bill to disband the Colorado City police department

    The news isn’t all bad. The vote was very close and they can introduce the bill again next year, just up the interval from 8 years back to 9 years back. If it fails again, do it the following year and increase the interval to 10 years, and so on.

  161. Yes Warren Jeffs has lost all semblance of sanity per this report from SLC TV station. Former FLDS member who knew Jeffs says, “Jeffs has lost his mind.”

    Read article:

  162. At last.

  163. RezDoc Theory: Anything new?

  164. The San Angelo paper on silly Warren’s threats, like if anyone is listening.

  165. Here is Wendell Nielsen’s prison record. Anyone find a way to access his shaved head mug shot?

  166. What Texas lawyers are saying about Jeffs appeal:

    Appears Texas lawyers are getting a big belly laugh out of this one.


    A Texan said this on April 27, 2012 at 2:54 PM

    love this line…

    Chief Deputy Clerk Abel Acosta with the Court of Criminal Appeals said the state has 15 days to reply, although it is not obligated to reply…

  168. Here is Wendell Nielsen’s prison record. Anyone find a way to access his shaved head mug shot?

    anonymous said this on April 27, 2012 at 3:00 PM

    I bet it would not be too hard to photo shop since he already almost bald.

  169. Anonymous said this on April 27, 2012 at 3:56 PM

    Anonymous said this on April 27, 2012 at 4:04 PM

    ooops last two from Watergirl.

  170. @ Watergirl: Nothing compares to that “caught in the headlights” “I’m a goner” look when they first enter prison and have that strip search and the head shaved before that prison mug shot.

  171. Slow news day? Anything new?

  172. Anon, I’m only saying this because the news is so slow, but a new episode of Sister Wives airs on (wait for it, wait for it…) Mother’s Day. It will give us something new to rant about. And, come to think about it, I’ll check the status of the civil case and update us.

    Just now, that’s all I’ve got.

  173. @ Watergirl: Nothing compares to that “caught in the headlights” “I’m a goner” look when they first enter prison and have that strip search and the head shaved before that prison mug shot.

    anonymous said this on April 27, 2012 at 4:13 PM

    LOL – yes, you are so right. glad I nor any of my love ones have never had to experience such a nightmare.

  174. I still have been trying to find more info on Winston Blackmore tax case. Found this as the last record on the tax court relating to the case. Looks like they were trying to “update” their responses. Judge allowed some of it:

  175. This just in on WA county & RCMP investigations:

  176. Wow. “I’ve been told that they’re talking to people locally.” Huh.

  177. Anyone know why David Harker (Williams) is listed in Washington County as being arrested by Sam Johnson on 5-29-12 ?

  178. Supremes of Utah on making the AG pay for UEP:

  179. How can he be arrested on 5/29/12? That’s not for 11 more days, unless someone is tryinmg to pull a warren.

  180. Could be a bench warrant date, if he doesn’t do X on a certain date, a warrant is issued. That wouldn’t be out of the ordinary. It is out of the ordinary for me to see it published as an arrest date before it has happened.

  181. typo. It is listed as 4-29-2012 not 5-29-2012

  182. washington county sheriff website just had him listed as “detained”

  183. Usually if someone is “detained” it is because he is wanted by another agency.

  184. From Las Vegas R-J:
    Alcohol cited in Arizona accident that killed five people

    By Dave Hawkins

    Posted: May 2, 2012 | 6:00 p.m.

    Alcohol was a factor in the March 6 traffic accident that claimed five lives in northern Arizona, according to the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office.

    Agency spokeswoman Trish Carter said toxicology test results indicate that the driver, 22-year-old Carl O. Holm, of Hildale, Utah, was impaired when the Chevrolet Suburban he was driving rolled on its top off a dirt road about 20 miles south of the Utah border.

    Carter said his blood-alcohol level was 0.186 percent, a little more than twice the legal limit for driving a vehicle in Arizona

    Holm was dead at the scene of the accident as was 17-year-old Joy Bistline, of Apple Valley, Utah.

    Arizona residents dead at the scene included Rachel Anne Kolgrove, 16, of Cane Beds; and Taylor Roundy, 15, and Jamison Holm Timpson, 19, both of Colorado City.

    The only survivor of the single-vehicle accident, Nakita Timpson, 16, of Colorado City, was treated for her injuries at a hospital in St. George.

    Sheriff’s Deputy Jim McCabe said investigators believe the victims had been celebrating Timpson’s birthday before the crash.

  185. Does anyone know how Nakita is doing now?

  186. There’s a problem with teenagers here in Short Creek, wanting to celebrate anything by getting drunk, especially those who’ve been booted out , I drink but I learned early on to drink at home & not to drink & drive, & I’ve been booted out by my sheeple family, I suppose we’ll be seeing a lot of drinking accidents!!….other-Anon

  187. Warren has a new neighbor.

    “The Polunsky prison unit was designed to house more problematic and dangerous inmates….Three inch slits around the building serve as the only windows.”

    Sucks to be them.

  188. a second attempt at abolishing flds police in az

  189. oops, already failed

  190. winston’s trial, final arguments:–150053255.html

  191. Good to hear from you other-anon. Are things getting any better in the creek? Any idea what the current defection rate is?

  192. Favorite line: “Mr. Blackmore is not Al Capone.” Ya sure?

  193. Just for a smile…. 🙂

    There once was an old man of Lyme
    Who married three wives at a time
    When asked, “Why a third?”
    He replied, “One’s absurd
    And bigamy, sir, is a crime.”

    – William Cosmo Monkhouse

    😀 … the rationale sounds as good as some others I’ve heard.

  194. I’ve been watching on National Geographic series on Amish. Same story about kicking out thier children and turning their back on them. Young kids with no education, no money, no family. Finding themselves alone and in a world they don’t understand. It is hard to understand how people can turn their backs on family.

  195. Final arguments today on Blackmore’s tax trial in Canada. As this blog has noted, the FLDS are chronic evaders as well. Time the taxman gets serious, or are they just going to give them a pass?

  196. Watergirl, I’ve been watching the Amish series also and have noticed the similarities with the FLDS. Hard for a parent or grandparent to imagine turning one’s back on their own young people to make it on their own out in what they themselves consider to be an evil world. Just plain cruel.

  197. Third time the charm? Sources tell me Bill Shapley has been sent packing again

  198. from dec. 2010 article regarding Bill Shapley: 71-year old FLDS member Bill Shapley says he has never lost faith in Warren Jeffs. He met us outside the white gates of the ranch where many of the FLDS members still live and work with their families.

    Shapley, who admits to having many wives says his leader is being wrongly persecuted. He also justifies underage marriage saying that it’s the emotional maturity of the girl and not the physical age that’s important.

    “God doesn’t look at age as a criteria.” Said Shapely.

    really Bill, 12 year old girls are emotional mature? Shouldn’t you say instead, “after 12 years of brain washing they should be ready for adult situations forced on them?”

    what do you say now? still have faith in Warren?

  199. Thanks TC for the interest, has there been any new defections or booted out people, not that I’ve heard about, things are quiet here,of course that’s usually the calm before the storm……other-Anon

  200. Bill doesn’t have any problem giving underage girls away in marriage. Just ask his daughters.

  201. The Court of Criminal appeals in Austin have set May 9 as response date for Warren Jeffs’s lunatic appeal.

    Case Information:
    Case Number: PD-0515-12
    Date Filed: 4/24/2012
    Case Type: PDR

    Case Events:
    Date Event Type Description
    4/24/2012 PDR FILED Pro Se

    Set Date Calendar Type Reason Set

    Party Party Type

    Court of Appeals Case Information:
    COA Case Number: 03-11-00568-CR
    COA Disposition: Denied
    Opinion Cite: APPEAL DISMISSED
    Court of Appeals District: 03

  202. This news is kind of a downer. Pat is a nice person and I’ll miss talking to her. I don’t know all the ins and outs of what happened at the Safety Net, but I’m a little sad that people don’t like what she did, saying that it was all a waste. definitely wasn’t a waste for me.

  203. Perhaps there is frustration more wasnt done… or if more WAS done, it was poorly advertised. Still, I’m glad you found her helpful – I think we all agree quality people need to be involved.

  204. I’m glad you found her helpful too Yehaaa, but I got the sense that she wasn’t accepted much by others on the Safety Net Committee. Maybe because she saw what a problem polygamy was and others were fighting to keep it.

  205. Yehaa, hello!
    I think that her you comment on her highlights the fact that the mission of the safety net is inherently unstable: in order to help people like yourself seeking to establish lives outside of the polygamist communities the safety net members have to be able to acknowledge and deal with the fact that polygamist communities have “issues” with how they support their own community members. That fact stands in the way of polygamy activists who would be willing and allowed to act as board members.

    It strikes me as an inherently impossible mission and one I really don’t understand that the state is financially supporting. Either they are a “safety net” for those seeking to leave polygamy or they are a pro-polygamy outreach group…

    Hope that your semester ends well and congrats to the recent article in which you were featured.


  206. Here’s info on Wendell Nielsen, he’s in the Bryd Unit, Huntsville,TX.

    SID Number: 08279770 TDCJ Number: 01778611 Name: NIELSEN,WENDELL LOY Race: W Gender: M DOB: 1940-08-02 Maximum Sentence Date: 2022-03-27 Current Facility: BYRD Projected Release Date: 2016-11-06 Parole Eligibility Date: 2013-05-22

    Scheduled Release Date: Offender is not scheduled for release at this time. Scheduled Release Type: Will be determined when release date is scheduled. Scheduled Release Location: Will be determined when release date is scheduled.

    Offense History:
    Offense Date Offense Sentence Date County Case No. Sentence (YY-MM-DD)
    2006-02-07 BIGAMY 2012-03-30 SCHLEICHER 1013 10-00-00

  207. Wendel got 10 years for straight up polygamy.

    When will Utah learn to pull that trick?

  208. Yep, Wendell got 10 years plus $30,000 in fines. Utah and Arizona would be wise to take lessons.

  209. Here’s Wendell’s mug shot courtesy of SLTrib

  210. Here’s more from the Trib on Wendell:


    Winston can’t claim tax status


    Winston can’t claim tax status

    ambiguouspw said this on May 8, 2012 at 8:58 AM

    a lawyer is saying that. he can’t claim religious tax status. Judge won’t rule till the fall.

  213. From the SLTrib, Warrens latest “revelations of absurdity”.

    Dudes definitely gone around the bend, now threatening Catholic Church, Italy and several other nations.

  214. Read more from SLTrib article:

    Well written IMO.

  215. Wendell looks healthier than his last mug shot.

  216. WSJ is using the word Way-way,way too much in his rambling revelations,”you can’t figure S**T”, hey Wendell ” April/May Fools,dumb ass”!!!!LOL ….other-Anon

  217. warren also appears to be mixed up in his geography, with Crete (part of Greece) lumped in with Italy and Sardinia (part of Italy). You’d think if he was particularly targeting beautiful Greek islands, he’d start with Lesbos for obvious reasons.

  218. tonight on cnn: flds police corruption:

  219. Just watched the program on FLDS on 360 and it appears that two women who are not members of the cult helped block the bill to decertify corrupt FLDS cops. The actions of theses two legislators must be publicized, and hopefully the sane voters will remove them from office. IMO the governor of AZ should call a special session to force issue. And should publicly expose the lies of these two legislators.

  220. That is true A Texan. Two female legislators helped block the bill.

  221. I just saw the report on CNN on the Colorado City police department bill in Arizona. One of the lead legislators who blocked the bill is a woman named Nancy McLain from Bullhead, who represents the area that includes Colorado City. After watching the CNN report, I was surprised that any legislator would try so hard to block a bill that passed the other house unanimously.

    Then I looked at her recent election results and the answer is clear: she is scared of getting defeated, and she needs the vote in Colorado City to keep her job. Rep. McLain narrowly edged candidate Ray Cullison in the 2010 Republican Primary by just under 1000 votes – beating him 9,668 to 8,673. I looked at the returns from the Colorado City precinct, and in Colorado City, McLain overwhelmingly defeated Cullison by about 600 votes getting 626 votes to his only 34 votes.

    This means that she got 60% of her majority over her primary opponent from the Colorado City polygamists. In a race that was as close as this one, the only sensible explanation for her overwhelming support in Colorado City is that the church told their members to support her. That means that if the church had not told their members to support another candidate, she would lost. Or, if the church had told their members not to vote, she would have had a much closer race elsewhere.

    I don’t know if she is expecting another primary challenger in this year’s election, but clearly she’s worried that losing her support in Colorado City will jeopardize her job.

    What a political coward. She is putting her own political interests over protecting children from abuse by protecting the people who protect the child abusers. Disgusting. Every voter in her district should learn this.


  222. Law Student – sounds like a good start to an editorial in the paper.

  223. You’re dealing with “politicians”,what did you expect ? Rep.McLain is as corrupt as any other one & will use any means possible to stay in office, “politcians are CORRUPT” & that goes for Democrats & Republicans ….other-Anon

  224. That was a great pieceat cnn by Gary Tuchman about law enforcement in shortcreek. So glad to see it in the news.

    Regarding McClain, perhaps she was pushed by a lobbyist. I remember a tweet from a public relations guy in February saying that the flds was looking for a lobbyist regarding the police disbandment bill. And there was an article in March at which said Jeff Matura, an “attorney and lobbyist for the flds” has been misinforming officials about the situation in shortcreek. Anybody know about this Matura?

  225. I fully intend to write some letters to papers in her district. I only wish I were her constituent and lived in Arizona and could actually do something more. She needs to be exposed.

  226. Here’s the video report on Colorado City,AZ police, and it an’t pretty.

  227. Here’s the second part of report on FLDS cops:

  228. The FLDS may have hired a lobbyist, but lobbyists do not cast votes. Legislators do. And most legislators are acutely aware of how they get elected, and where their votes and support comes from. And this legislator knows she won her last race because she secured the polygamy vote and now she’s rewarding their support and securing it for the future.

    It’s really quite amazing that one branch of the Arizona Legislature – the Senate, passed this bill unanimously and the house killed it due to the work of two legislators. It’s remarkable. This means that whomever represents Colorado City in the Senate suppoted the bill – probably because he or she does not need the polygamists support to remain in office.

  229. I’m hearing that Abram Harker Jeff’s appeal has been denied. I’ll post more later.

  230. TC here it is the court’s opinion:

    Another one bites the dust in Texas!

  231. Excellent, A Texan!

  232. And Ben Winslow is reporting Leroy Jessop’s indigent status appeal also denied.

  233. It is not just thse two ladies that need to be hit over the head with a dose of reality. It is the rest that voted with them. 2 can’t make it fail no matter what they stand up and say without the rest going along with them.

  234. good reporting on CNN part. I bet they were shocked to see how foolish they looked on camera with everyone else fully going the other way. Their saying “No, I don’t hear complaints…” Their body language said the opposite.

  235. Exactly Watergirl. No evidence of current problems?! I was able to do two google searches and find two news articles within seconds that reported the FLDS police referred to arson and trespassing as “civil” matters rather than conducting a criminal investigation like they are supposed to do. One of the articles talked about how a police officer actively assisted FLDS members in stealing books while the other talks about how the Washington County Attorney had to travel to Hildale to personally instruct the police to follow the law.

    And then of course there’s this:

  236. TC here’s the copy of the ruling that Ben Winslow reported.

    The Eldorado Success news paper also tweeted about this.

  237. I had a disturbing conversation with a Singer/Swapp relative (not mine or at least distant) who I respect yesterday in which Krakauer’s treatment in Under the Banner of Heaven was seriously indicted credibility wise. I really disagree, especially because I’ve read his other writings, including his indictment of “three cups of tea.” Anybody feel like weighing in? This person characterized him as an Oliver Stone type who weaves fiction and fact to lead you in a sinister way to a pre-conceived conclusion with mal-intent. (I suppose I could be sued by the Oliver Stone people but good luck….)

    Any thoughts? This is vain but I think I’m smarter than to be lured like that and Krakauer footnotes well.

    Krakauer’s indictment is titled Three Cups of Deceit and is not a book but rather an essay, I think 75-100 pages. Available on Kindle or Ibooks. He had significant personal involvement because of his personal financial contributions. I have not met him personally or otherwise.

    If you need me to fill you in on the Singer/Swapp group, let me or google know.

  238. Ooops, do I need to change my name to Overlord Off Topic? I miss you by the way!

  239. SLT article on Abram Harker Jeff’s appeal of his 2010 conviction. His appeal was denied by the 3rd circuit court in Austin, TX. The old turkey baster ploy failed again.
    From the article.
    “However, Jeffs said in the court documents that this alone does not prove sexual relations, and that artificial insemination could have been used.”

  240. I am surprised they went with the turkey baster approach. They must not have consulted with Warren on that. Seems to be against what FLDS believe in. Putting anything up there other than a FLDS priesthood man’s parts seems outrageous for this group.

  241. Actually the law calls it child abuse no matter what you put up there. And artificial insemination does require getting up in there some kind of way.

  242. I read the Harker stuff. They are trying to say that if the girl obediently accepts the abuse and refuses to testify against her owner then there is no child abuse, because the only other way you could prove it is to have a third witness in the room. Fortunately, that garbage is not working in Texas. They just can’t accept that they are not in Utah anymore, can they?

  243. They just do not understand the “age of consent” law or they pretend to not understand it. Some flds supporters have also made that arguement. Fortunately the LE people and the criminal courts fully understand the laws about age of consent.

  244. Defendant in ‘Holy Ghost’ rape case going to prison
    Court » Leader of Church of the Firstborn of the General Assembly of Heaven raped 15-year-old girl. WTF…is wrong with Utah…no jail time!

  245. In Idaho the insemination of a child would constitute sexual battery or rape of a minor (depending on the age of the minor) by penetration with a foreign object, with or without consent.

  246. And rightly so. I am guessing Jeff’s real thoughts are that nothing is wrong if he says it’s right. And so by saying artificial insemination could be the method, then there could be a mother or a doctor or nurse who is guilty and not the priesthood man who supplied the sperm. That was the argument with the turkey baster case, that they could not prove it was him. And then his wives came in and testified (lied) that they “stole” his sperm and used it to impregnate the young girls.

  247. A very straight forward article on reasons for polygamy:

  248. editorial comment I meant to add:

    It’s clearly all about love among equals.

  249. hellohellogoodbye – you are inches away from seeing the real parts of this $tory. Good link and good story.

    Check out Scott D. Pierces column at the Trib. I wish that Scott will tell the rest of that story.


  250. The other day I watched the National Geo. special on Winston Blackmore. It was old and was about the split – One of Winston’s wives said they split when Warren ordered blood atonement on a woman in the creek and she escaped to Canada. That Warren wasn’t making sense and they had to break away. I will give Winston at least that – he saw Warren was crazy and decided to leave. Wondered if true or not or just what they are saying after he was arrested in Texas.

    Also, one thing the narrator said has been nagging at me. He said they most don’t usually marry legally their first wife so they can’t be convicted when they co-habitat with the second, third, fourth …. Is this something those of you close to the FLDS agree with? Seems most I have read here all creekers have a legal first wife. Winston has a legal wife too. Is this a new thing?

  251. These state reps did have a point, the current cops were cleared of any wrongdoing by the Arizona Post. Also, the last officer was decertified over 5 years ago, According to this article, Horne said,

    “”When we go at certification one at a time, they are simply replaced by a clone,” he said.”

    Does this mean they have given up on decertifying these police one at a time? Also, the “clone” reference does sound like the AG wants to discriminate against them solely for their religious beliefs and that most certaintly is unconstitutional. The CNN clip talks about David Bistline’s family leaving the house, while that is quite disturbing, even a Sheriff’s deputy could not have prevented this woman from taking her children and leaving the house as there is no law against that.

    If a cop pledged allegiance to Al-Queda and was then removed, that would be constitutional and I doubt anyone would object to such action since Al-Queda is a designated terrorist organization. So the solution in this case is to lobby the federal govt. to designate the FLDS as a Terrorist Organization, that way the state government could to almost anything to them without worrying about civil rights and such. Another plus is that anyone who gave support to the FLDS, including advocating for their rights and defending them (PPSG’s) on blogs, would be subject to federal prosecution for giving “material support” to a terrorist group.
    So many questions, so few answers.

  252. The girl that was ordered blood atoned was Vanessa Rohbock. That is a true story.

    Most are legally married to their first wife. They also marry them in an FLDS service. Winston was legally married to Jane Blackmore. Not sure if he legally married one of his other wives after Jane divorced him.

  253. oh hey, I haven’t completely abandoned my blog. new post

  254. It was during Rulon Jeffs administration that I first heard of men not legally marrying their first wives. It was really rare up til then.

    Of course no one married their other wives legally…… that would be illegal. 🙂

  255. Another plus is that anyone who gave support to the FLDS, including advocating for their rights and defending them (PPSG’s) on blogs, would be subject to federal prosecution for giving “material support” to a terrorist group.
    So many questions, so few answers.

    anonymous said this on May 15, 2012 at 4:30 PM
    Are you serious? Group A calling Group B terrorist and the Feds showing up to prosecute because people might stick up for themselves or ask for proof?

    Would that include those groups that hand out fliers and write books condoning such behaviour? Like those handed out at Safety Net Meetings?

    Why not have the Feds prosecute those that stood back and watched illegal activity continue to grow? Why not prosecute those that are breaking the laws ?

    Those remaining in the FLDS have broken no laws. At least that is according to the “still investigating” mode that has continued for the last 8 years and at least 100 years before.

    The cops were cleared. The only one that might have actually been decertified is Rodney holm. Or the one guy right after him that they wrote about. But that story seemed to be missing something. Interview with Amos Guiora 1/5

    Now, if you listen to Amos talking about terroists. It seems to me that the word “terroist” really couldn’t be used just for the those in the FLDS. I’ve seen more things on the ex-mormon blogs written about the LDS that scare me more than what I’ve seen about the FLDS.

    I would think that the issue at hand could be easily taken care of if those involved would start telling the truth, printing the truth and enforcing the laws.

    Since this thing started, I’ve seen more BS started and blown out porportion by those in the groups surrounding the FLDS. In all fairness to the many who have spoken out, Gary Engles, Sam Brower etc. they only can speak about the things that they have seen. imo there are wayyyyy to many cheifs in this drive em out indian story. Left hand right hand game has at least 5 extra sets.

    AND… imo the whole psychological warfare game term was not said in jest. It included us.

    This whold stupid thing would be/could be over if they would start telling the truth.
    no more lies!!

  256. yeeehaaa – For you- Anything’s Possible (Jonny Lang Video Edit)

    Never give up. You can do it.


  257. an article on the arizona bill, nice background

  258. Great post Yeehaa. Take the summer off and get some rest but don’t let it turn you into a dropout. You can do it!

  259. HHG- that is a great article.

    I really like Tom Horne and I think he really is trying to get to the bottom of things.

    Bottom line is the officers have been cleared of any wrong doing. Cleared. According to the reports only one officer has been decertified. One.

    All the phoo phoo stories that recently came out about the officers not doing their jobs have been linked to a few parties who have had their day in court per se. And the officers were cleared.

    What’s keeping Sheenan from doing his job? What is keeping the Feds from doing their job. There has been enough written about for a full investigation by other agencies to enforce the laws and go after those breaking the laws.

    How long can investigations go on before the statue of limitations kick in and nothing can be done? Oddly enough it happened to Shurtleff when he was investigating the kingston clan. And life goes on. The stories continue.

    What ever happened to the couple that couldn’t get water?
    Fire Department fiasco?
    Homeland Security funds used for what?
    Book theft?
    Squatters in the UEP home that shouldn’t be there?
    The tresspassing on Blacks property?
    The Berry Farm?
    What ever happened to show me the papers as to how you bought the land in the first place idea? Who owns what and how was it paid for?
    Social security fraud?
    Food stamp fraud?
    Housing Assistance?

    Can’t blame all that on the local cops.

    There is nothing wrong with rotating this group of officers into another county. It can be done. If they aren’t doing their job under another supervisor they will and can be demoted//fired/ jailed.

    The blood atonement thing is not new. In fact there are more stories about different ones inside of Utah concerning this issue. Some were members of the LDS Church. But nobody wants to talk about those things. Jon K. wasn’t kidding when he wrote about it in his book.

    Apples falling from a tree imo.

    I like Sam Brower. And I really like Gary Engles but Sam Brower and Gary Engles aren’t being told the whole story. A good example of BS hitting the news and everyone ran with it is the goofy Browns – we all love each other and want our story told but we want our privacy when too many questions are asked.

    Both Sam Brower and Gary Engles can blow that whole story apart if they tried. If they wanted to. They haven’t.

    There is more to the David Bistline story than what is being said.


  260. —-This clip is from Aug. 2010 In the clip Mike Watkiss states that Sam Roundy had been decertified. If he was decertified at that time, they gave it back to him. In the last report from Arizona they said Sam Roundy was stepping down after the death of his son and because he is sick of all the crap going on.

    So… a big part of this whole problem is that there are people in position that are BS’ing the lot of us. And because there are so many hands reaching for that pie, they forget the pie isn’t theirs to be reaching for.

    The reporters are trying to tell the story. But some of the stories they are being told are not quite truthful.

    Either Utah and Arizona use that evidence that Texas has shared or both states should contact the Federal Govt and tax payers and set up a repayment plan for all the monies being given to these states while they stand back and allow all this to continue.

    AND there is all that evidence found out during the Canadian fact finding hearing that supports any and all claims about the harms done to society as a whole by those who practice polygamy. Doesn’t matter what religion it is. Doesn’t matter if religion is involved. Bad Cops of Colorado City–Reported by Mike Watkiss


  261. the Roundy that just stepped down and whose son died was Jonathan, not Sam. FYI.

  262. Thanks yehaaa.

    I was digging around looking for some info on the “decertified” cops and got side tracked when I was looking for Vance Barlow. I found this :

    Click to access WorkingPaperNo1.pdf

    Maybe you guys already knew about all this. I saw signs but this is the first time that I’ve seen the floor plan so to speak. imo it speaks loudly about a lot of things.


  263. Oh, this two-version mormon song is rich, posted yesterday on mormon hair. You won’t be disappointed.

  264. Thanks for the AZ DOT study, Walton.

  265. From that link: “We need a detailed map of this Super Highway because of it’s future impact on this whole area. Also, how can you/we plan if we don’t know what is expected from these “cricker” residents.”

    And…” The proposed Super Highway past the new International St. George Airport through the gap and passsing just north of Hildale to it’s terminus was not discussed enough, nor was the future of the “crickers”.

    This stuff is kinda crazy. Makes a person think about all the people that arrived by ship to the “new country” and then traveled across those prairies in wagons and by foot.

    Sure makes us as a society today look like a bunch of whiney, land grabbin’, greedy poop heads<< ( name that sounds better than what came out of my mouth) doesn't it?


  266. Appears that the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals in Austin, TX has dissmissed Warren Jeffs appeal, but Jeffs filed for a rehearing which is set for 31 May 2012. Jeffs case was refused on May 16, 2012.

    Event Type: PDR DISP
    Description: Pro Se
    Date: 5/16/2012
    Disposition: Refused

    And here’s more:

    Case Information:
    Case Number: PD-0515-12
    Date Filed: 4/24/2012
    Case Type: PDR

    Case Events:
    Date Event Type Description
    View Event PDR DISP 5/16/2012 PDR DISP Pro Se
    View Event PDR FILED 4/24/2012 PDR FILED Pro Se

    Set Date Calendar Type Reason Set
    View Calendar 5/31/2012 STATUS REHEAR DUE
    Party Party Type

  267. I don’t understand how you can schedule a status rehearing on a dismissed case.

  268. Steve Powell convicted:

  269. I think it is in case he files a motion for rehearing or something of the kind.

  270. Here’s more from the SLTrib on Warren Jeffs appeal being refused by Texas Court of appeals:

    The article states correctly that Jeffs has exhausted all appeals, unless he appeals to the US Supreme Court, or the status rehearing on May 31 allows his case to be heard. IMO the rehearing on 31 May will result the refusal to hear case being upheld.

  271. Consulted an appellate attorney friend here who feels that Texas is very careful on pro se clients and that WSJ must have appealed the the appellate court’s dismissal and that the hearing is the last ditch chance for due process and won’t go anywhere. Look out national Supreme Court.

  272. The status rehearing wasn’t on there when I first looked at the notice of dismissal at 10:00. I’m guessing whatever attorney did the cover sheet for the PDR must have requested it later in the afternoon.

  273. Here’s more from SLTrib on Warrens Jeffs appeal.

    From article, it appears that SLTrib is not aware of the May 31 rehearing.


    Matthew reports that Warren has 15 days to file for a rehearing, hence the calendaring date.

    Matthew reports that Warren has 15 days to file for a rehearing, hence the calendaring date

    Yes PT it appears that the appeals court is making sure all bases are covered. Warren still has appeal rights to take case to US Supreme Court, a national platform for Warrens narcissistic ego. Wonder what wild & weird revelations he will come up with for the court in Washington D.C.

  276. The Supreme court can choose to hear a case or not. They are not required to hear just because someone requests it. I am betting they will see absolutely no reason to hear his. Four judges have to agree before it it placed on the docket.

    Again, Warren wasting the sheeple’s money for no reason.

  277. Did Warren give the Supremes CC of all his love notes?

    I’m sure they would be impressed.

  278. Too bad the USSC has such a full hearing schedule. They could have used this as a little comic relief!

  279. He will have to base any appeal to the US Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds. Not sure he has much leg to stand on for that.

  280. Don’t you think he’d use the search & seizure?

  281. Probably use that and the freedom of religion if he was lucid. Given his rambling nature I foresee a rambling revelation that threatens all sorts of nasty stuff if he isn’t freed immediately.

  282. Here’s a news report on how people in Eldorado are on edge with FLDS construction projects and fear that Warren might order.

    From article:

    “Now people in Eldorado, Texas, say they fear he may be telling his followers to do something drastic.”

    Includes statement from the pilot.

    Read entire article:

  283. On Twitter:
    Lindsay Whitehurst ‏@lwhitehurst
    End of the legal road in Texas 4 Warren Jeffs 2day. Court of Criminal Appeals refused to hear his self-filed appeal. #FLDS #polygamy

  284. oh sorry, now I see that Lindsay said that on May 16. I thougth there was a response to Warren due today and thought she was commenting on that.

  285. Here’s what a TV station in Austin,TX has to say about the FLDS and cult preparing for doomsday, article repeats some of what Utah TV station reported.

  286. JD is getting some good face time with the news. I dont understand though, are there new ditches or was he referring to the old ones?

  287. A recent article from JAMA on trends in underage marriage of girls in Asia :

  288. Chaps, JD is his son. Jimmy is the JP. I think they both are pilots though and both fly over the ranch.

  289. In an effort to curb underage marriage, bigamy and polygamy in India, registration of all marriages in Delhi is to take take place :

  290. Anyone know why Richard S. Timpson is listed in Washington County as being arrested on 8 counts of animal cruelty?

  291. Because somebody made a horrible false accusation. I know Richard, and he is anything but cruel. He has a bleeding heart for animals and is often the last resort for people who need help with injured and sick animals of every kind. This was a mighty injustice, and should be rectified.

  292. Paul Murphy ‏@PaulMurphysLaw
    Warren Jeffs has new lawyer named Jesus to file appeal in Texas Ct of Appeals. Jesus commands people to give treasures to free Jeffs. #FLDS

  293. Paul Murphy ‏@PaulMurphysLaw
    Warren Jeffs’ new revelation says a big star will appear and a planet will collide with Earth to welcome Jesus back. #FLDS

  294. I would never try to stifle the rants of these idiots.But don’t think that people will forget about them even if their claim comes and goes.There will always be a group of people with infinite gullibility. Just ask Hal Lindsey.

  295. On Richard Seth Timpson – I don’t know but that looks to me like he can’t afford to feed his cattle or horses enough. That happens every so often around here in Idaho too.

  296. Pilot put this on his Polygamy Blogs page… rather appropriate.

  297. So the recent eclipse was an optical illusion to fool us?

  298. Charles Zitting Barlow as well arrested in WA county, operating a boat DUI.


    The fool’s latest ramblings.

  300. Yes PT it’s so foolish that it’s good for a LMAO, ole Warren never fails to entertain. Ole Warren’s a strange one, did you read the one about Lithuania, guess ole Warren still thinks it’s communist.

    Here’s the SLTrib’s write up on Warrens revelations of the absurd.

    Appears that Warren has some awareness of what’s happening.

    I’m sure we all will get a real belly laugh when he comes out with his appeal to the US Supreme Court, that’s going to be a real whopper!

  301. On Timpson, looks like he got the book thrown at him.

    Arresting agency SPRI (Springdale??) Like to know the story on this one.

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-8-305 INTERFERE WITH ARREST BM WCJ3 623.00 623.00
    76-9-301(2)(B) ANIMAL CRUELTY-NEGLIG CM WCJ3 270.00 270.00
    76-8-305 INTERFERE WITH ARREST BM WCJ3 623.00 623.00
    76-8-301.5 FAIL TO DISCLOSE IDEN BM WCJ3 623.00 623.00
    76-9-102(3) DISORDERLY CONDUCT-AS CM WCJ3 320.00 320.00

  302. An interesting article on the effects of polygamy on society :

  303. Its about time for more pilot pics? I wonder when they are going to pull the statue out of the warehouse errrr ~~ I mean the temple.

  304. I made a new blog post. hope people don’t mind me posting that here.

    I don’t know what’s up with Richard S. Timpson. he was one of my 8th grade teachers, and I knew he had horses, but I don’t know about animal cruelty. One can only wonder sometimes.

  305. Joshua Brent Mackert of North Dakota was arrested on warrant in Washington Co. UT yesterday. No further info. Is he in or out?

  306. Question is WSJ’s new lawyer’s name spelled like the Spanish name- Jesus(hay-soos) ????other-Anon

  307. Mackert is in the mug shot line up at the link above.

    Says he had an outstanding warrant. May have blown off a ticket may have simply forgotten it.

  308. Probably, thanks chaps.

  309. BIB
    great article
    I have book marked it to cut and paste into comments on SLT and elsewhere.

  310. Other-Anon, he doesn’t have a new lawyer. He is still Pro Se.

  311. PT, I think the joke is that Jesus Christ is his new lawyer given the title of his recent revelations.

  312. Commenting on Pro Se, you might all be interested to know that here in Idaho a few years back a legislative candidate legally changed his name to “Pro Life” (still his legal name). Reminded me when a presidential political candidate in Colorado legally changed his name to “God Almighty.” People are nuts.

  313. Glad to see your new post yehaaa, and hang in there! Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Seriously.

  314. Hildale mayor appoints judge:

  315. On Judge Graff, presumably this is kind of a once or twice a month sort of a job? And the rest of the time he remains in regular practice?

  316. From SLT: ” If Graff is approved, he will hear traffic citation and misdemeanor cases in Hildale; there were 28 such cases last year.”

    I think it would have to be a part time situation with only 28 minor cases per year.

  317. No way. The woman who has been faithfully delivering Jehovah’s Witness materials to my house for three years is a Romney relative of mine from the Mormon colonies in Chihuahua. She has failed to convert me, but we had a nice discussion about polygamy.

  318. on that Judge article… Philip Barlow is the mayor now? huh. I hung out and worked with some of his kids when I was little. Interesting to see how things change.

    And TC, thanks. 🙂

  319. I think there is another Barlow who is mayor of CC, but not sure which one.

  320. Third Cousin,

    Is that kind from the frying pan to the fire?


  321. Abram Harker Jeffs has filed a notice with the 3rd Court of Appeals that he is going to appeal their decision to the Court of Criminal Appeals.

  322. If Abram H. Jeffs files an appeal it will go as Waren Jeffs appeal did. Once the justices get over their ROFLMAO, they will give Jeffs case the attention it’s due, dismissed. That turkey baser defense just won’t fly in Texas.

  323. A bit off topic, here’s an ABC News article on subject of Mormons.

    THe LDS call themselves Mormon, the LDS say the FLDS aren’t Mormon. The FLDS say they are Mormon and the LDS aren’t. Perhaps ABC News will bring a little clarification.

  324. I’ve just seen this picture on Can anyone identify?

  325. KK – I don’t know but they look like Mackerts to me.

  326. Some of them anyway.

  327. Thanks 3C, I was just curious

  328. HHG – You’d think. But if I’d inquired about her conversion story from mormon to JW they’s still be in my living room. I am curious though.

  329. I just read for the first time that under early polygamy under Joseph Smith there was a system of 27 rules established in that regard. This was way early on in Nauvoo when my first mormon ancestor took his second bride in secret, being one of the first. I have never heard of the 27 rules and don’t know what to think about it. No rush, but somebody please enlighten me. Although it’s on my short list I still haven’t read “nauvoo polygamy” and perhaps the question is answered there.

  330. Never mind, here it is:

  331. From this memory piece of a Malaysian female Muslim, Vivienne Lee Abdullah

    about half way down the article (in case I am asked to cut out the copy)
    is a great statement on polygamy:

    “By then, I had already been introduced to a seemingly radical group of women who called themselves Sisters in Islam (SIS). I had attended some of their study sessions in the late ‘90s and respected their knowledge and the positions they took on various Islamic issues — all stemming from scholarship, research and a strong conviction in a just Islam.

    After eventually joining the SIS research team which studied the impact of polygamy on the family, I interviewed nearly 100 participants comprising men who were heads of polygamous households, a group of first wives, some “subsequent wives” (second, third or fourth wives) and the children of either the first or subsequent wives. My research elicited many varied emotions from the respondents as they were forced to recall intricate details of their daily lives. Many a time, I found myself empathising or fighting tides of emotion while struggling to maintain neutrality.

    What struck me most was the intensity of negative emotions experienced by the women and young adults (the children interviewed had to be necessarily over 18 years of age) — unsurprisingly, not as much was expressed by the men. It’s all well and good for so-called learned Muslim scholars to stroke their goatees and proclaim that the rules governing polygamy were laid down centuries ago, practised by generations of Muslims and therefore can hardly be unjust. But does the Holy Book also not talk about being kind to slaves and marrying them — how is it that today’s followers have rejected the practice of slavery altogether?

    During a particular interview with a 42-year-old man who was still bitter about his father’s second marriage (which had taken place when he was a young boy), I remember thinking, “Wow, if only every man who is thinking of taking on another wife could listen to these children expressing deep dissatisfaction and anguish, often caused by family rivalries, they would surely be deterred from taking the final step towards entering matrimony yet again.” But then again, when desire conflicts with duty, will a sense of responsibility, kindness and wisdom reign?

    In my long chats with the interviewees, I found out time was far more important and valuable than money. I was told stories of neglect, and how hurtful it was to be shrugged off like a baju lusuh (faded, old shirt) after having invested so much time, energy and deep sentiments into a partnership. There were tales of crushed hopes and dashed expectations.

    The first set of children felt abandoned, the second group wondered why they had to share their male parent — and all these feelings would intensify whenever they compared themselves to friends or members of their extended family who had never had to experience the pitfalls of polygamy.”

  332. There was no footage of a pickup driven by a 10-year old or one loaded to overflowing with kids.

  333. Here’s the latest Warren Jeffs revelation of absurdity from the SLTrib:

    One bit of real hypocrite statement is the part that says: “Let women be free, to be educated, to have full law protection from abuse.”

    Doesn’t Warren the felonious realize that’s why he’s in a Texas prison because he abused women & girls, and denied them an education.

    How absurd can Warren get?

  334. Here’s the complete article from SL Trib:

  335. **The story about the Helzer Brothers raises a lot of questions. As I was reading this story, I thought about those that “claim” they are a Prophet, the Powell story and about the man in Utah who was murdered in his homje a few years back. Morensten. Not really sure why. And a few other “loose stories” that have surfaced.

    Breaking the laws and using Religion for an excuse.
    Revelations from a Prophet. —

    He scribbled a list of maxims�– 12 Principles of Magic�– on a scrap of paper and made his groupies�– his younger brother and Godman�– memorize them. Among the principles were “I am already perfect and therefore can do nothing wrong,” and, “I gain control by losing control.”
    They believed he was a prophet and obeyed his orders.

    Another tawdry scheme called for importing underage girls from Brazil�– where�Taylor had been a Mormon missionary�– to seduce married businessmen, whom the trio would later blackmail into giving them money. ������

    Yet another scheme involved adopting Brazilian orphans whom they’d train as assassins to kill the15 leaders of the Mormon Church in Utah. Once the church leadership was dead, Taylor would take over the institution.


  336. Here’s more on Warren’s latest revelation, an opinion, piece, a bit tongue in cheek.

  337. Even the British Press has picked up the latest “revelation:

    From article:

    Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs has shared an apparent change of heart in his latest ‘revelation’ from prison, writing that women should not be abused.

  338. Ironic huh?

  339. At tad off topic–but amusing–

    Five wives vodka banned in Idaho because it is offensive to Mormons… but Polygamy Porter is still allowed.
    From MailOnline….

  340. Yes, mc, that was front page of my newspaper yesterday. Here it is.

  341. Warren banning his own people from sex and then having a revelation to get women educated reminds me of a child’s tantrum where they know they are guilty and go overboard to try to prove to their parents they are innocent.

  342. Seems a little late to put out flyers not to abuse women and children – after you have been sentenced to life PLUS 20 years.

    Is he finally making nice with his conscious now? Well he sure has lots of time on his hands to contemplate it.

    Anyway it appears he is still a nut.

  343. Five wives holding kittens – pretty funny, just missing a guy holding a rooster.

    Funny that Idaho banned it but Utah didnt. I think Utah has just been distracted.

  344. well, first you have to get from Warren what HIS definition of what abuse is. Can’t assume it is the same as most.

  345. Utah gives the “Browns” a pass to be polygamists, they aren’t going to prosecute. In Texas polygamy gets you a ride to Huntsville, TX, in Utah it gets the blind eye. Guess the big money of the TV producers speak louder than the law.

  346. Utah won’t prosecute. Here in Idaho they don’t even open a case file.

  347. But just to be clear, Texas never charged anybody with bigamy who had not committed other crimes with the exception of Wendell Nielsen, right? And Wendell although not charged in such (except for offense conduct at sentencing) was involved in many underage marriages.

  348. Shurtleff is on his way out. Things may change with the new AG – may not. Not sure when the election is or who is running. But, this should be a topic in the elections.

  349. Five Wives may sue the state of Idaho.

  350. I would really be OK with that policy if it were true. In fact, they ignore all sorts of laws broken by polygamists.

  351. The SL Trib through one of it’s leading editorial writers has come out in support of polygamy for consenting adults.

    From opinion piece: “What I finally realized is that, as a fervent backer of gay rights, including marriage, I could not gainsay the right of one straight man and four straight women to live together as their beliefs and convictions guide them.”

  352. I agree with this editorial on a number of issues, as well as the comments following. Polygamy between consenting adults should absolutely be legalized, to not do so is a direct violation of basic constitutional rights. It is a sad shame that the worst of the worst, the lowest of the lowest of the scum of the earth has monopolized the worlds attention, thus discoloring and soiling the practice for many generations at least. There is some confusion surrounding the subject, some points I would like to see clarified. #1 all polygamists do not abuse the welfare systems, and other government programs. There are so many, even most maybe who are self-sustaining productive members of society. #2 all polygamists are not uneducated ignoramus’ with a disdain for knowledge and higher education. Many are college educated, intelligent business owners. Is there a majority of the FLDS people who do not fit this description? Yes. But not so many before the reign of terror of WSJ. There are so many little picky points, having to lie on forms, hiding from the mainstream society, etc, which make the people who chose this lifestyle appear guilty and ashamed. What is truly criminal that in the melting pot of America we don’t have the tolerance for freedom of choice in this regard.

  353. wife#2 said:What is truly criminal that in the melting pot of America we don’t have the tolerance for freedom of choice in this regard.

    Seriously? ?

    I know that you’ve seen the things written here, I know that you’ve heard the evidence in the Canada fact finding. How can you still try to dump all the evils of Polygamy at the foot of the FLDS/ Warren Jeffs time slot?

    You are making excuses. Having to lie on forms, hiding from the main stream, teaching children to be feaful, teaching them to lie. If you are doing these things it is because YOU choose to do so. YOU are the one that has put your children at harms way. YOU.

    It is YOU that put your needs and wants before theirs. It is YOU who wants it all. It is YOU that limit the freedoms for your children and yourself. NO one else but YOU.

    The laws were put in place to protect the young and innocent. YOU decided that the laws are meant for other people. YOU put yourself above the law and those that try to enforce it,. Those that try to protect. Because of YOUR selfish needs.

    And while you have the choice to marry legally like so many, there are groups out that there that are denied that right. And yet it is YOU that wants more. The whole world isn’t about YOU.

    Not only do you know that your are breaking the law, but you are asking that everyone excuse it and allow you to continue. Why are you placing yourself above others? Others who might be breaking the law and actually seeing jail time.

    Religion? Really? God demands that you forget about the other commandments to carry out this one task?

    It’s a lifestyle some say. And for some people being pimped out on the street and yet they go to jail. And for some people thieving in the night is a lifestyle. For some it’s waking up everyday and running a scam. But there are laws in place and those folks go to jail.

    So please don’t talk about limited freedoms. And please save the whining woe is me for the Safety Net.


    Brenda Jensen deposition –

  354. A few questions for Rebecca Musser: was it Rulon or Warren Jeffs you escaped from? Some of us believe Warren was drugging his father to seize power & control over Rulon,I knew Rulon in SLC & in SW Utah-NW Arizona, & he was nothing like Warren, I didn’t know Warren at all, so which is it Rebecca ? Warren or Rulon you escaped from ??

  355. Rebecca Musser left the flds after Rulon died at age 92. Warren would have been in charge when she left.

  356. I find it very discouraging that a paper that has covered many of the abuses of polygamy and the Canadian Test Case could possibly have written that editorial.

    To the commenter above I find it very hard to believe that the majority of those practicing polygamy are self sustaining or that the women involved were not required to “freely chose” polygamy as a condition of salvation.

  357. Hitler was wrong about the Jews, most jews are good people. The South was wrong about Blacks, most blacks are good people. The Religious Right was wrong about Gays, most gays are good people. However, We got it right about Plygs, most plygs are bad people. Most of them cheat, steal, rape and lie.The women who partake in patriarchal polygamy are brainwashed dolts who are not and cannot conceive of the terrible life they live in. Therefore, it is essential that We, in the form of CPS, police, and activists, do everything we can to forcibly compel humans to be monogamous. Polygamy has no place in Modern society, especially when it involves children.

  358. Is hogwash a troll?

  359. Kind a seems like it….

    other topic
    read the comments on the editorial – most of which excoriate it

  360. Ten years ago Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped by polygamist Brian David Mitchell, here’s the SLtrib’s take on the story, notice how it fails to mention that the motive for the crime was polygamy.

    Appears the Trib has changed it stance on polygamy, taking a more pro polygamy stance, where as IMO in the past it had a more anti-polygamy stance.

  361. Well Hogwash, at this point the Utah Attorney General (top police officer for the state) disagrees so you are climbing a steep hill with not much company. Better run for AG or find someone with your mindset to campaign and vote for.

    Forcibly compel humans to do anything is not a realistic goal.

    (sorry Betty I know DFTT – but I can’t forcibly compel myself)

  362. Here’s the D-News version of the above SLTrib story. Like the Trib the polygamy angle to the story is brushed under the rug.

    Some of the archived articles do mention the polygamy angle that are linked in above article.

  363. Tomorrow’s a big day at the Utah Supreme Court.

  364. For those who want to listen in tomorrow:

  365. Thanks anon. Should be interesting.

  366. Why yes I do plan to listen in. Thanks anon.

  367. Hogwash:

    “most plygs are bad people.”

    NAHH, and I think trolls who post that kind of stuff usually get it deleted and / or banned for repeated similar posts.

    How can children and women forced into that life be bad? Now, you might be addressing the leaders, those that subjugate women and assorted other misbehavior…

    But most here recognize polygamy has far more victims than perpetrators in their ranks.

    And nobody wants to call a victim a bad person, right?

  368. I agree Stamp, the women and children are victims and should be treated as such. There are a few of the women who are also the perpetrators, but in the grand scheme of things it is mostly those in positions of authority who are promulgating the abuse.

  369. Looks like the 1st hearing is at 9:30 and the 2nd is at 10:30 Utah time.

  370. I keep getting google alerts about a wife of Warren’s running away. Is this old news or has another one flown the coop?

  371. Anonymous June 3rd 7:25:
    I’ve been away, so I’m just now catching up on your response.

    First off, I have nothing to do with Canada or the FLDS so I’m not “dumping” everything in that timeslot. I am not making excuses. I am simply stating facts. And surprisingly you are right about one thing. I AM choosing, for myself and for my children until they come of legal age. That’s what parents do. They choose what they think is the best life for themselves and their children.

    Second, laws are definitely put into place to protect the young and innocent. I do not believe in underage marriage of any kind. I do not even believe that polygamy is for everybody, including my children. They are not forced, they are not pressured. They are free to choose. Even more so than your children are free to choose polygamy if that is their preference. This is what I want for my life, right now. If I chose tomorrow that this was no longer working in mine and my childrens’ best interest, I would and could choose something else. I am not a victim, or a captive. I am a free American woman. I do not believe in abuse, mental, emotional or physical. My children are not abused in any regard.

    Third, you brought up religion. I didn’t even mention the word in my post. However, if you want to use that, I will too. My religious freedom is just that, RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. It is not an excuse for unlawful behavior, but if the laws do not protect and support this freedom then the laws need to be changed. That’s the crux of the matter.

    Thank you for your interest, but I’m afraid we must agree to disagree.


    That’s really all I have to say HOGWASH! A more bigoted, prejudicial post I’ve never read. Doesn’t even merit this much of a response.

  372. I’ve heard nothing of a fleeing wife since last November or so, PT.


    The Trib’s take on today’s hearings.

    You’d think if some of the men now out were part of the “answer them nothing” strategy they would testify that it was how Warren wanted it.

  374. And the Deseret News weighs in

  375. Why would any polygamists in Utah be fearful when Shirtless has said in public that he will not prosecute for polygamy unless it accompanies other crimes? Other than Texas, what convictions have there been in the last 50 years?

  376. Looks like AG Horne was serious about trying to help the people of CC.


    Glance at the sidebar. Willie got a default Judgment against Lyle, Wayman et al.

  378. Thanks anon at 12.04pm. Quote from the sidebar:

    “A 5th District Court judge awarded Jessop and his business nearly $30 million after leaders Lyle Jeffs and John Wayman failed to respond, according to an order issued Monday. ”

    The flds leaders are apparently still using the “answer them nothing” defense. That defense usually leads to default judgents as is the case here.

  379. Wow, so you can bring suit against someone and if they don’t show up you get $30 million?? LOL – That is a good gig if you can get it! Just how much iron clad proof did Willie have that it was them? From what I read in the lawsuit it was all just accusations. Granted I am sure it was them but, without proof you can go to civil court and win if they don’t show? I am amazed. Was there no reschedule at least once in case they were caught in traffic or other delay beyond their control?

    Wasn’t the suit also against FLDS. Because just those two probably don’t own anything in their own name.

  380. Betty said: “Why would any polygamists in Utah be fearful….”.

    I made a similar statement on a Huffington Post article about polygamy [inre an article about the Cody Brown clan] when I said not ALL ‘wives’ were in this voluntarily, and said that Texas had to prosecute the FLDS child molesters, cuz Utah won’t touch the subject….. Welll, some poster had a cow. I was defamining the LDS [I never even mentioned them] I was stupid and illiterate [sometimes open to debate] and in her words….–> “the Texas case was sensationalized’… and… “Utah does prosecute child sexual abuse and/or polygamy (or child brides as they like to call them)!!!” And I should “Google it before you appear to be stereotyping out of laziness!……”

    Well, I guess she told me! HA!

  381. I can’t wait to see Willie try and collect $1 of his settlement.

  382. Willie got a 30 million judgement – ha ha ha ha!

    I hope he ties those guys up in knots so they cant move without leaking money.

  383. Any more recent overflights of YFZ that anyone knows of? Gotta believe the amphitheater is close to finished by now. Let the idolatry begin!

  384. You can check the pilot’s photos blog under blog roll on this site. The latest pictures posted there are 4/23/12.

  385. Warren’s writing again.

    Beware of a holy orb of Isrealites.

  386. In verse 36 of the “revelation”, you wouldn’t understand it without knowing what we were taught growing up. He mentions England punishing for adultery, no matter who. I was taught growing up that England because a powerful nation because adultery was punished, but I can find no evidence of this using Google. Was adultery ever punished by death in England or its emprie?

  387. Anne Boleyn was executed for adultery. In her case it was viewed as treason against the king.

  388. Here’s the story on the $30 mil judgment:

  389. Cement, even in the american colonies adultery was punishable by death, but often that was cloaked as “witchcraft” or “blasphemy.” An excellent treatment of the subject is the book “The Witchcraft Delusion in Connecticut.” (Taylor) As well as this journal article by Holdsworth:
    My 8th great grandmother was convicted in the Connecticut witch trials for the same issue.

  390. You’re a witch 3C, who knew!!!

  391. Wouldn’t be surprised if it were to happen.

  392. I’m very witchy PT, and my clairvoyant powers tell me that no matter what cousin Romney does he’s not gonna pardon WSJ and invite the clan to dinner. That’s the weirdest non-urban legend ever, anon 10:04. Great comic relief though.

    Poor old 8th great grandma (Johanna Wakeman Hackleton Whittaker 1638-1700) was spared execution but spent two years crawling an underground dugout prison. She had killed her newborn bastard at the insistence of her husband, who had been absent a couple years. She was sold for indenture to a British soldier, who she later sued for paternity and the court forced marriage. Believe it or not, she was later charged again with witchcraft in New York, in the Esopus. Her daughter described her as wretchedly tormented, owing likely to the child killing. But what choice did she have back then? I guess we all have a choice though.

  393. I don’t think the Lincoln bedroom will hold all 80 wives.

  394. Ann Boleyn was executed for not producing a male heir, although the trumped up charge was adultery.

  395. “Jessop was a loyal defender of Jeffs, until he learned of the sexual assault of children in the aftermath of the raid on the FLDS Church’s Yearning for Zion Ranch in Texas”

    Really? Was it Willie just found out, or was it that Willie realized the rest of the world had found out and he was just saving his ass from prison? How does the spokesman for YFZ not see the babies being born to little girls? Or was it finding out about the quorum of 12 little girls in the temple orgy that sent him over the edge? Either way there is NO way he wasn’t aware of the assaults before the trial.

    I call BS on that line.

  396. Wouldn’t be surprised if it were to happen.

    Anonymous said this on June 7, 2012 at 10:04 PM

    too funny! No way this will ever happen. I don’t like Romney myself for many reasons but, he is not THAT crazy.

  397. I agree Watergirl and I called BS to his face. I asked him specifically about Veda’s baby and he said he was told it was her sister’s (who was also married to Warren) baby.

    But in truth, he knew there was tape evidence way back during the Elissa Wall trial because they asked a Federal Judge to seal what had come out of the Escalade and then Willie did everything he could to make Elissa and her sisters who also testified a living hell. He knew.

    This new Willie is trying to save face. He told me that he wished all of the children were off the ranch and I told him that it had happened and due to all of the crap he pulled they were all sent back. If the FLDS hadn’t been successful at getting a Mediator/Judge to review the evidence before it could be used (and this took 6 weeks) all of the underage marriage and baby stuff could have been used in the custody cases. As it worked out, they didn’t get their hands on the stuff until a few days after the children were ordered back. I think it would have made all the difference in the world.

  398. Watergirl and 3C, I think Romney were to win and if the grand poobah of the LDS church told him to do so, Romney would pardon Warren and the other FLDS men in a heartbeat.

  399. Mandate was issued yesterday in Keate’s case. He hasn’t appealed to the Court of Criminal Appeals so I guess he is resigned to spending 33 years in prison.

  400. The anon @ 9:33 about the grand poobah was me. PT

  401. Fortunately, the pardoning of WSJ has to be the last thing President Monson could possibly want.

  402. Watergirl and 3C, I think Romney were to win and if the grand poobah of the LDS church told him to do so, Romney would pardon Warren and the other FLDS men in a heartbeat.

    Anonymous said this on June 8, 2012 at 9:33 AM

    I will add that to my list of reasons for not liking him.

  403. Part of an article from the HuffPost – June 7 (Reuters) – Arizona will funnel more than $400,000 to a sheriff’s office on the Utah-Arizona border to beef up police patrols of a town that is home to followers of imprisoned polygamist leader Warren Jeffs…
    “This action is necessary because of evidence that local police placed their allegiance to Warren Jeffs over their duty to enforce the law objectively, regardless of people’s religion,” Arizona Attorney General Tom Horne said in a statement.

    The Attorney General’s office alleged that local police have apprehended young women trying to run away from the community and dragged them back, effectively making the women prisoners.

    The $420,000 for Mohave County comes in the form of a grant funded by assets forfeited during criminal drug prosecutions in joint state and federal cases.

    “This funding will allow us to increase our patrol presence in Colorado City and provide unbiased law enforcement services that the citizens do not have with the Town Marshal’s Office,” the sheriff said in a statement.

  404. Stamp/ posters – I visited this site in the past week and today I received an e-mail from an ‘Ashley’ with a FLDS Texas return e-mail address. When I clicked on the message my McAfee website warning software alerted me to a ‘Caution Website’. I suspect some malware or tracer system has been attached to your ‘FLDS Texas’ address. I’ll check back here for any comments or queries but the fact that I hadn’t been to this site in months and then got a e-mail addressed from here is very concerning.

  405. I’m no expert on the current LDS church but I really can’t see them suddenly reversing their stance on polygamy after 130 years or so. And it would be devastating politically for Romney. His evangelical Christian supporters are already a bit nervous about backing a Mormon, they really don’t need proof that they were right.

    But wouldn’t it be cool to get a reporter to ask him that question in public and see what he says?

  406. CalJim and others, the FLDS Texas aol email address has apparently been hacked. Sorry for anything that you got for it. The blog has been using a gmail address for some time.

  407. I got it too CalJim. I didn’t open it. Mine said “Amanda” though.

  408. Thanks for the heads up CalJim. I haven’t gotten messages like that.

  409. Thanx for the feedback PT and 3rdCuz, at least I wasn’t getting paranoid.

    The High Court is going to rule on the FLDS Trust property case and I was thinking about how Warre skeedaddled and left all of the United Order in the lurch. He had made several prophetic statements about the Short Creek area no longer being the ‘Gathering Place’ for the supposed EndTime and he formed the newer enclaves, almost like Noah’s Ark. I still say his plan was to abandon most and work with his chosen few to take a stronger level of control, dominance and thw walled communities reflect his seizure mentality. Warren in lock-up leaves the FLDS Trust in limbo and I would assume some form of dissolution of the Trust will be decided.

    Problem is the enclaves in Eldorado, Mancos, Pony Springs, Creston, BC and Pringle are formed and out of preview of outsiders and the Press. Scary prospect for those FLDS left in the gulags

  410. New thread if it’s convenient? I’m restricted to my hand-held for the next 3 weeks. But I do recognize it’s not all about me.

  411. Just for Third Cousin and her 3 week handheld restriction please continue in the new thread.

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