General Discussion #75 Countdown

Warren is set to get his phone privileges back on March 25. That’s 1 week from today (March 18). In the meantime, here’s something being passed around. Not sure who the author is, but it appears to be too coherent to be authored by WSJ.

Thoughts?

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on March 18, 2012.

415 Responses to “General Discussion #75 Countdown”

  1. certainly sees to coherent to be warren,
    but notice there is a new doomsday, April 12, 2012,
    Don’t people ever wise up that the doomsday never happen?

    HHG

  2. He got #6 right…he is no respecter of persons…. And only 1 ‘verily’??? He’s slipping…or someone else wrote it for him.

  3. Or, maybe he’s taking a creative writing class in prison.

  4. The deadline is April 6th, 2012 – a significant anniversary to FLDS.

  5. (above was me… hit the Post button too soon)

    The posted document was written by either a current or former FLDS. I was taught Christ was born and died on April 6th. Not sure how they figure it now, but mainstream LDS always schedule(d) their Conference right around that date too.

  6. That was also the date the LDS church was organized.

  7. April 6 is the date I predicted for the statue dedication at the YFZ.

  8. Latest rumor over on the Texas Polygamy blog is that Lyle “fleeced the flock and fled.” Sure could use some verification if anyone knows.

    That gives credence to why so many so-called faithful have been seen this past week shopping at the Mercantile store in town (previously banned) instead of counting their beans and receiving their “just needs” (no wants) from the storehouse. Confirmed.

    C’mon folks… now that you’re having to pay out what little money you have left for the things you need, maybe you’ll also buy a clue?

    Now I wonder if Lyle wrote that document. It comes out right after he disappears? The timing also bears out if you think about Warren needing his Judas (Lyle) so that he can maintain his “I am a martyr” delusions? Just speculating.

    Sure makes me wonder what’s going on right now behind the walls in Eldorado and Pringle… not to mention who knows how many other places of refuge. Maybe the tried and true faithful have all fled too and what’s left are the lot who didn’t make the cut.

    Just speculating.

  9. So if I understand the comments above Judge Shumate is the judge who heard the tape and ruled it inadmissible? I thought, because I am easily confused, that was Judge Dee Benson….?
    hellohellogoodbye said this on March 18, 2012 at 8:00 AM

    (From previous thread)

    It was both. Judge Shumate ruled the tape inadmissible in WSJ’s trial because it was too inflammatory and Judge Benson sealed the tape – keeping it out the the hands of prosecutors and others calling it a sacred religious document.

    Good thing neither of them was employed by Penn State. There might have been consequences….

  10. This new letter “from Jesus” (you never do have any shame, do you, warren and stand-in, scribe, whomever?)—purports to be “to all flds people past and present”… then starts zeroing in on readers of same to “gather their wives and children” … so it suddenly wanders from being directed to “all members” to just adult males who have had children with various women. ( or aren’t women and children considered “flds members?”)

    The word judgment is spelled wrong- In this message it has “judgement.” And there’s an exclamation point after one of the last admonitions from this “Jesus.” Glory be, warren, or whomever, can’t you even spell the word right that you are constantly threatening others with? It’s J U D G M E N T, ok? and yes, I use a small w on purpose. I can’t stand to capitalize wsj’s name.
    Exclamation points were almost never in the sentences of Jesus that I can recall, in New Testament.. possibly with exception of when Jesus cleansed the temple of money-changers. Exclamation points are very rare or non-existent in Old Testament where God is speaking. I am so sick of flds leadership malarky!
    This letter uses many Bible phrases and ideas, as is usual with mormon charlatanism… The plagiarism remains glaring in this cult, as with all cults. If the people in this group knew and respected the entire Bible properly, both testaments, instead of having been conditioned to respect mormon concepts and writings as they have been since birth, they would know this is nothing but a harmful cult they live in. They would see the major errors and twistings they have been subjected to so many times, and would never remain within such an evil little world which cloaks itself as some kind of super-exclusive holy heirarchy.

    It continues to be a disgrace how this cult uses people like game pieces. And how whomever is sending out such messages claims the messages are from Jesus Himself. It is appalling, outrageous, sad, and a bunch of other negative adjectives. Just outright manipulation and chicanery, as usual. The brand of deception courtesy of Joseph Smith lives on.

    Speaking of which, I watched more of Shawn McCraney’s MormONION series on youtube today. How atrocious that the realities of Joseph Smith’s pathetic life continue to be ignored, while the current “fundamentalist” groups he inspired have perpetrated thousands of human rights abuses-Smith was nothing but a sham, yet his religion is used to force “purity” and “holiness” (things Smith certainly avoided himself) on thousands- family break-ups, forced marriages, child abandonment and endangerment. Smith was a drunk, a shameless womanizer, a con artist, used extortion, and today, flds has cast out hundreds of young men for watching videos or listening to music of their choice. Flds has forced hundreds of girls well below the age of 18 into “marriages” with men often old enough to be their fathers or grandfathers. And if they don’t like it they are threatened. This bunch constantly threatens its young from day one to live a slavish and extremely narrow existence. Yet the founders of lds were debauched, some were drunks, and most were conmen. flds would never still be an entity today without extremely heavy mental conditioning and threats of personal destruction used on all born in it, from early childhood onward.

    This letter sounds like warren realizes he has cut too many people out and alienated too many, and that his money stream and power have dwindled too far. He realizes he has to try to build his club back up in numbers.

    “Thus saith the con-lord– your extortioner and slave-driver-

    gather back up your womenfolk and yungins- ’cause we are gettin too short o cash money and childbrides and construction project slaves. “

  11. When Warren was giving revelations out loud in open court he claimed they were from God. When Judge Walther admonished him and told him he would not threaten the jury he said he was simply passing on the message to which the Judge replied for him not to pass it on.

  12. oh yeah, p.s.– And thus saith the lord-of-the-con unto this people- stay the heck out of the secular courts, or you will go straight to you-know-where, as per usual.. because I, I mean, warren, heard that a bunch of you are gonna sue my slur-vant warren… and we can’t have that, since all flds money needs to go for w’s defense (in the secular courts)…and the rest for w’s nutty construction ideas at yfz, etc. End of transmission… oops, i mean, revelation..amen

  13. Between Shumate and Benson, I think Shumate made the right decision in not allowing the “rape tape” into the Elissa Wall trial. Benson on the other hand was a pure nutcase to claim that it was religion and should be sealed on the grounds of it being a sacred religious document. I want to know what religion Benson was referring to, since rape isn’t tolerated.

    Benson should be rotting in jail for his aiding and abetting Warren.

  14. oh yeah verily, Lord knows that slur-vant warren is constantly borrowing higher pay grade Name… it helps to sell his embarrassing diatribes to his slaves, and makes them sound authentic to flds ears.

  15. there’s a bunch of people who should be rotting in jail for aiding and abetting w… Mewonders if “Nomes” (naomi) will ever see justice.

    Now that would truly be news to relish. It was “marvelous” to see merrill and the other boys from yfz make it to the big house, at least.

  16. Strange and stranger yet, things are certainly getting weird in FLDS land, guess the FLDS want to avoid paying the IRS on the 15. Got news for the FLDS, we will all be here on the 15th. Interesting the revelation isn’t signed, did the Warranities write it or is it a creation of the two Willies? Coup perhaps lead by the two Willies or the CP group?

  17. Okay help me here folks. When I searched highly inflammatory/Judge James Shumate in google it appears the inflammatory statement referred to Warrens jail house confessions at purgatory. I can’t seem to find any particular news article that specifys a tape from the escalade. Next question: where is the evidence that Judge Dee Bensen heard the escalade tape and sealed it? Any news cast follow that story? Is there a link you can give us? Also, if Texas raided YFZ over the escalade tape then why we’re we given the “Sarah” story by them? The raid would’ve set much better with the public had they been up front about it. Is it possible the tape could’ve been made up considering today’s computer technology? Thank you kindly for your answers.

  18. The best I can recall is that there was a hearing on a Motion by Warren’s attorneys that Benson ruled on the rape tape.

    As for it all being made up, give me a break. If it wasn’t true there would have been all sorts of denials from Warren and company. Their best effort was that the search warrant was faulty. No way it isn’t authentic.

  19. ET, I’m sure you remember that the major reason for 04/06/1830 is that is when JS formally incorporated, or whatever you did back then, the church. Nice for him if it really corresponded to the big guy. Do other religions presume to know the birth of JS in April or is that unique?

  20. Duh, my bad, already brought up on the April 6th thing.

  21. Blog administrator: how did you get a copy of this recent revelation?

  22. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019828/Warren-Jeffs-sexual-assault-trial-Documents-seized-raid-polygamous-sect-leader.html

    http://thesop.org/story/20110804/warren-jeffs-got-away-with-these-crimes-until-he-decides-to-relocate-to-texas.html

    To help refresh your memory, it to help open your eyes here art the two articles that mention the audio tape, who had them at the time of the arrest
    Remember that Jeff’s and Naomi had a copy of that 12year old rape tape. WSJ carried that as his prized possession, better than viagra.

  23. Anon, I posted two links that I hope are helpful
    If not, tell me what you are looking for and I will help

  24. http://bit.ly/Aao6OW

    A few final thoughts on car crash

  25. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022139/Warren-Jeffs-trial-Heavy-breathing-sex-tape-3-wives-including-bride-12.html

  26. did anyone hear anything about the bill to disband the colorado city police dep. I thought they were voting last Thursday on it. Did i totally space out and miss it?

  27. Utah had heartburn, I think the vote is coming soon in AZ

  28. A couple of documents:

    This is a link (I hope) to a PDF of the “Defendant’s Motion to Quash Subpoena Duces Tecum” http://www.mediafire.com/?7clbdbrmqngsic7

    This lays out WSJ’s defense team’s argument in favor of suppressing the tape.

    This is the Utah Supreme Court’s decision in the Elissa Wall’s case.

    http://www.mediafire.com/?z8ge3jgja23du4y

    This is relevant, I believe – because this lays out the evidence presented in Judge Shumate’s Court. I’m not arguing the specifics of the case. I’m suggesting, Judge Shumate saw enough of the FLDS culture to recognize that, in the FLDS, the faithful see nothing wrong with the idea that either parents or the religious leader can pressure a young girl to marry against her will. That concept comes through very, very clearly – and my point is that coerced marriage should be considered exploitive – all on it’s own.

    That seems so very, very obvious to me – I feel like I’ve fallen down a rabbit hole when reading this decision.

    The Supreme Court Justices state their concern that ruling against Jeffs could have left the door open to prosecuting a father for encouraging his underage daughter to marry the father of her child. I understand that.

    What bothers me is the “Oh, well” attitude of the decision. This case details a very, very serious violation of Ms Wall’s human rights, yet there is no follow-through. The Justices express regret for the “pain” the victim might suffer but offer no suggestions for how the law might be changed to protect future victims – or even how the AG might retry the case successfully.

    Essentially – they seem to be regretful, but otherwise OK with the idea that Jeffs broke no Utah laws when he abused his influence to force a child to marry an adult.

    Then Judge Shumate says he needs to see evidence that a culture of exploitation exists in the FLDS….

    I’m really having a hard time understanding why these men don’t understand that, in the US, women get to decide for themselves if, when and who they marry. If an adult woman chooses to let a religious leader guide that decision, fine – but as soon as social, financial and religious pressure enters the picture – it becomes coercion and should be illegal. Religious freedom for leaders does not trump individual liberty – guaranteed by the US constitution.

  29. great post jerrie
    hhg

  30. I agree with your post Jerrie.

  31. Ditto!

    Awesome post, thank you Jerrie!

  32. I think that Jerrie you have the making of a letter to the editor, or an article looking at the relationship of the FLDS in the last, let’s limit it to, 10 years in Utah – how the FLDS use and abuse the laws related to child sexual abuse and who are the those making judicial decisions that facilitate such abuse…

  33. The decisions handed down in Utah courtrooms are influenced by the sea of mormonism in which they were originated. No matter that Utah is supposed to be part of the US. This will not change as long as mormonism is the social and cultural fabric of literally all of Utah. I have spent a bit of time in most US states. Utah stands out as definitely a unique and very mormon theocracy. Lds has adherents and recent descendents of polygamy throughout Utah. I don’t care if the judges are atheists, Protestants, Catholics, Jews,or anything else. Utah has a mormonized distinction that cannot be easily overcome. It will require something very deep, real, fundamental, and sustained in the population of the state to turn this around.
    The only thing I can think of is if Utah some day ends up being MUCH less mormon in population numbers overall, and in its cultural behavior and memory. The state was born in the throes of mormonism, and even being threatened with war and loss of state’s rights never really changed its many mormon-inspired ways. I just do not see any backbone even in its courts developing, short of some true miracle, and general uprising of the public in vast numbers, to make Utah something other than it is- MORMONLAND.

  34. Keep that paradigm going and it’s easy to extrapolate why mainstream LDS could never make fundamentalists change their ways either — any more than they themselves have been willing to take their mormon ways out of the public sector. It’s deep in all their DNA now. It will take many generations before real differences will be seen… and only by gradually winnowing out the illegal practices and questionable court judgments in each younger generation. Education is still key … and leaving religion out of it. That belongs in homes and churches.

  35. But I still think that there would be a national market for a story about the legal decisions with respect to Shumate and Dee etc…… especially this election cycle…..

    Anybody a journalist here?

  36. Jerrie,
    Wonderful post!

  37. Specific citations regarding whether Benson and/or Shumate ever listened to the rape tape would be helpful.

    All I have been able to find are references to such acts on internet postings.

    By specific, I mean direct links to articles and if a book citation, page numbers.

  38. Jerrie, I think they SHOULD prosecute a father for “encouraging” his underage daughter to “marry”! What is this, Afghanistan?

  39. There are plenty of Taliban parallels, Betty. I bet Mullah Omar and WSJ would have a great time swapping organizational control techniques, not to mention how to keep those ladies sweet.

  40. Mom,please keep putting your thoughts down on this forum.You have put your words in such a way that anyone that’s still ignorant of this evil cult will understand their ways clearly.

  41. New twist on #FLDS revelations sent to @MarkShurtleff. Richard & Edward Barlow now sign they’re true & Nathan Jessop now handles inquiries. Per twitter

  42. #FLDS Warren Jeffs breaks his silence: 3 new revelations saying US is debtor nation for relying on paper money. Plus, let me out of prison.

    Per twitter

  43. Nuffer’s coming up for confirmation. I re-contacted my Senators, my Congressman, and Utah Senator Mike Lee. I attached this article: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/52722425-191/court-case-flds-supreme.html.csp

  44. Anon who wants specific citations, there is a link to the actual document that was filed and as Exhibit B is Judge Benson’s ruling.

  45. “Jerrie, I think they SHOULD prosecute a father for “encouraging” his underage daughter to “marry”! What is this, Afghanistan?”

    Betty said this on March 20, 2012 at 7:51 AM

    That was my first thought as well – but I can at least understand how and why they would use that potential interpretation to reverse the decision. However, the obvious next step is to look for ways to update the law to protect young girls from this type of predation – and that never happened.

    “But I still think that there would be a national market for a story about the legal decisions with respect to Shumate and Dee etc…… especially this election cycle…..

    Anybody a journalist here?”

    hellohellogoodbye said this on March 19, 2012 at 8:09 PM

    Or a PhD candidate, perhaps? There is a lot of material to work with – for someone who has the time to track down, verify and process all the pieces.

    It is a fascinating (and disturbing) story from a legal, political, social and psychological perspective.

    If I didn’t have three kids and two jobs, I’d be interested.

  46. Yeah, I have a 50 hour/week job and am writing two demanding text books AND I know nothing about law, or I would do it
    HHG

  47. I agree, very thoughtful comments Jerrie and Mom.

  48. ambiguous

    can you provide links to the new revelations?

  49. It appears ole Wendell Nielsen is going the get his trial Wednesday in Midland, TX. Dude should have kept the plea bargain, he won’t like what a jury going to hand him, he might not like Walther as judge, but the new judge he will find not to his liking either.

    Here’s more on the trial from the San Angelo newspaper:

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2012/mar/19/new-site-judge-for-bigamy-trial/

  50. Nuffer’s coming up for confirmation. I re-contacted my Senators, my Congressman, and Utah Senator Mike Lee. I attached this article: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/52722425-191/court-case-flds-supreme.html.csp

    Third Cousin said this on March 20, 2012 at 4:01 PM

    Yes that’s the correct thing to do, but IMO the only way to stop the confirmation is to get President Obama to withdrawal the nomination. As long as the President backs Nuffer, it’s a done deal. How to convince President Obama to do the right thing is key.

  51. Here’s a quote from President Obama about David Nuffer as federal judge:

    “I am honored to nominate these distinguished individuals to serve on the United States District Court bench,” said President Obama. “They have both demonstrated an unwavering commitment to justice throughout their careers, and I am confident they will continue to serve the American people with integrity.”

    By this statement President Obama feels that Nuffer has integrity and is committed to justice.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/06/29/president-obama-nominates-two-united-states-district-court

    If one reads the statement from Obama, one will see mention of his representation of local municipalities, aka Hildale,UT/ Colorado City,AZ. So the Whitehouse staff and President Obama know of Nuffer connections to “short creek”.

  52. ambiguous

    can you provide links to the new revelations?

    anonymous said this on March 20, 2012 at 8:06 PM

    Anon here they are from the SLTrib website:

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1LG1w31trK_dDNzdmpGY0lTWE9nWXJPNHRyUVNGdw/edit?pli=1

  53. Here’s the SLTrib article about new revelations:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53758089-185/revelations-barlow-warren-interesting.html.csp

    Ms Whitehurst makes some interesting comments about new people signing “revelations”.

  54. I’m trying to feel other than sad. Just plain sad.

  55. http://www.gosanangelo.com/cover-it-live/trial/Wendell-Loy-Nielsen/2012/

    Reporter is using Twitter to post live comments during trial. Refresh to get updates. Very interesting.

  56. Thanks, abmig.

  57. There are Native Americans in Utah who are not LDS & some who are .The ones who aren’t belong to various christian, jewish, buddhist, bahai, groups or belong to the native american church : Paiutes,Utes,Shoshonis,Gosiutes,Navajos, so remember not all Utahans are white & LDS, as for WSJ’s new revelations, what did we/you expect ? “You can’t fix stupid” …… other-Anon

  58. Eldorado Success: Warren, Merril and Leroy Jessop have been subpoenaed by the state for Wendell’s trial.

  59. Well goody goody we know where to find them, sure they will be happy for a day or three away from prison.

  60. They can gawk at each other as the ponder their new prison garb. No fundie undies for this bunch and no business suits either. That went away when they got convicted.

  61. Fundie road trip? Will they get milk and cookies if they behave?

  62. Oh good, another opportunity for WSJ to pontificate.

  63. Jury has been selected.

    As for Warren and company, they have been listed and subpoenaed before, but that doesn’t mean they will be called to testify.

    Leroy would be interesting since he married one of Wendell’s stepdaughters. I’m sure he wouldn’t be considered until the penalty phase.

  64. Still gotta give those boys the willies having the possibility of facing a Texas Judge, Jury and Prosecutors again.

  65. With shaved heads and in prison issued clothes no less.

  66. Cant have that much rightousness in the same room. It might upset the rightous/unrightous barrier levels in the time space continum and create a rightous black hole.

  67. OO – LOL. I would love to see the swirling of that black hole. That’s what they are building at the zipper ranch!

    PW

  68. 8:31

    Standard-Times:
    Welcome to the live coverage of the court proceedings of the trial of Wendell Loy Nielsen. We are setting up and testing connections, we will begin coverage shortly.
    8:32

    Standard-Times:
    Today’s courtroom coverage is provided by Matthew Waller of the San Angelo Standard-Times.
    8:32

    Standard-Times:
    Trial is set to commence at 9:00 a.m.
    8:55

    Matthew Waller:
    Hello everyone. Matt Waller here. I’m at the trial and juror qualifications have just begun.
    8:56

    Matthew Waller:
    There are at least 200 potential jurors in the courthouse by my count.
    8:59

    Matthew Waller:
    Wendell Loy Nielsen, 71, has been charged with three counts of third-degree bigamy, punishable by two to 10 years and up to a $10,000 fine. He is a member of the polygamy sanctioning Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
    9:02

    Matthew Waller:
    No more potential jurors are in line to talk about qualifications. The judge is talking with the attorneys at the bench.
    9:09

    Matthew Waller:
    Now more people are lining up for juror qualification questions.
    9:10

    Matthew Waller:
    Judge Robert Moore over the 118th District in Big Spring is presiding over the trial. He is replacing 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, who has heard all of the previous convictions of FLDS men.
    9:13

    Matthew Waller:
    Nielsen is in the courtroom, next to his Austin attorney David Botsford. Nielsen is in a sweater and blue shirt.
    9:13

    Matthew Waller:

    Nielsen was a president of the FLDS corporation Utah but he stepped down so supreme FLDS leader and “prophet” Warren Jeffs could assume the presidency early in 2011.
    9:18

    Matthew Waller:
    Judge Moore expects to finish jury selection today by mid-afternoon, getting 12 jurors and two alternates.
    9:19

    Matthew Waller:
    Trial will begin in earnest at 9 a.m. tomorrow morning, Judge Moore said.
    9:20

    Matthew Waller:
    Judge Moore said the trial might go through Friday of next week. Previous estimates said the trial might take two weeks.

    “It’s kind of a lengthy trial,” Moore said.
    9:23

    Matthew Waller:
    The jurors are approaching the bench again to talk with Judge Moore about whether they can serve, including having financial hardships or being a caretaker.
    9:24

    Matthew Waller:
    We’re here in Midland for the trial of Wendell Loy Nielsen.

    Nielsen, 71, has been charged with three counts of third-degree bigamy, punishable by two to 10 years and up to a $10,000 fine. He is a member of the polygamy sanctioning Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
    9:28

    Matthew Waller:
    At the moment, 15 people are in line to talk to the judge at the bench regarding whether they are able to serve as jurors.
    9:40

    Matthew Waller:
    People have smart phones in the courtroom. It’s a different experience from San Angelo, where no electronic devices are allowed in the courtrooms, excepting attorneys.
    9:41

    Matthew Waller:
    The trial moved from San Angelo to Midland after discussions with the judge and attorneys involving too much pretrial publicity and the size of jury pools in the area.
    9:44

    Matthew Waller:
    Nielsen is the 11th FLDS member to go to trial based on evidence found at a raid on the FLDS Yearning for Zion Ranch. Law enforcement authorities executed a search warrant at the ranch after learning about the possibility of sexual abuse.
    9:45

    Matthew Waller:
    The ten other men who have been convicted, including FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, have been imprisoned for charges such as bigamy and sexual assault of a child.
    9:46

    Matthew Waller:
    This is the first bigamy case to go to trial out of the 12 men indicted because of the ranch raid. Two other FLDS men have pleaded no contest to bigamy charges and received 8 years and 7 years in prison.
    9:47

    Matthew Waller:
    Warren Jeffs, who is serving a sentence of life plus 20 years in prison in Palestine, Texas for sexually assaulting a 12-year-old and a 15-year-old girl, is also scheduled for a bigamy trial. He has a pretrial coming May 21.
    9:48

    Matthew Waller:
    People are still lined up to talk to the judge. We’re down to five people in line, although occasionally someone else will get in line as well.
    9:55

    Matthew Waller:
    Judge Moore left to go to chambers with attorneys. “Don’t leave,” he said, and people laughed.
    10:05

    Matthew Waller:
    Judge is still out. There is hushed chatter in the courtroom, where people have been standing to stretch, but are now mostly back in their seats.
    10:06

    Matthew Waller:
    Nielsen is resting the side of his head on his closed hand, eyes closed
    10:15

    Matthew Waller:
    The bailiff just told us that it’s going to be a while still before the judge and attorneys come back. Then another bailiff suggested hitting the vending machines.
    10:21

    Comment From texski
    nice to get data from you, looking forward to trial and following your posts
    10:21

    Comment From texski
    how many wifes did this one have??? and was he the money man???
    10:23

    Matthew Waller:
    He is charged with three bigamous relationships, so he is alleged to have had one legal wife and at least three “spiritual” or “celestial” wives. Don’t know yet about his control of finances.
    10:25

    Matthew Waller:
    The FLDS practice “spiritual” or “celestial” plural marriage as a way of spiritual exaltation. The FLDS split with the mainstream Latter-Day Saints on that issue of polygamy in the late 1800s.
    10:27

    Matthew Waller:
    We’re hear at the bigamy trial of the former leader of a polygamist sect, Wendell Loy Nielsen, who is charged with three counts of bigamy.
    10:27

    Matthew Waller:
    The judge and attorneys have just returned from chambers.
    10:28

    Matthew Waller:
    We’re in the jury selection phase.
    10:32

    Matthew Waller:
    The judge just released 12 potential jurors. They’re going to shuffle the seating arrangements of the remaining jurors. I estimate that there are at least 200 people.
    The shuffle could take about 20 minutes, the judge said.
    10:48

    Matthew Waller:
    Chairs have been moved aside to make room for court reporters and the prosecution and defense in front of the judge’s bench. Names are being called off now for the jury seating order.
    10:52

    Comment From flyonthewall
    What is the purpose of the shuffle?
    10:52

    Matthew Waller:
    It’s done to ensure randomness in jury selection for a fair trial, as I understand it.
    11:12

    Matthew Waller:

    154 potential jurors have been seated after the suffle.
    11:13

    Matthew Waller:
    We’re about to hear presentations from the state and the defense and then have “voir dire” where jurors answer questions to determine whether they can serve.
    11:13

    Matthew Waller:
    Eric Nichols with the Texas AG’s office is serving as a special prosecutor.
    11:14

    Matthew Waller:
    David Botsford, of Austin and Tom Morgan of Mildand are representing Nielsen.
    11:18

    Matthew Waller:
    We’re here at the trial of a polygamist sect member, Wendell Loy Nielsen. He is accused of three counts of bigamy.
    11:18

    Matthew Waller:

    “I don’t know anything about this case, to be honest,” Judge Moore said. He advised potential jurors that the allegation of an offense is not proof of guilt.
    11:20

    Matthew Waller:
    The judge advises potential jurors to tell whether they has personal knowledge of the case, and to advise of any biases or prejudices.
    11:24

    Matthew Waller:

    Jurors will have the opportunity to judge what is credible and how much weight the testimony has, Judge Moore says.

    11:29

    Matthew Waller:
    Judge stresses the presumption of innocence, and what the state will need to prove, such as the act and the location and date of an offense.
    11:44

    Matthew Waller:
    According to bad acts documents filed back in 2010, the state alleges that Nielsen “married” 34 women in addition to Linda Black, his legal wife.
    11:45

    Matthew Waller:
    Evidence for those marriages would come during the sentencing phase of the trial, if it is reached.
    11:54

    Matthew Waller:
    We’ll be meeting back at 1 p.m. to hear from the defense and prosecution. See you back at 1 p.m.
    12:55

    Matthew Waller:
    We’re in Midland at the bigamy trial of Wendell Loy Nielsen, a member of the polygamy sanctioning Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    He is charged with three counts of bigamy.

    Jury selection is underway.

    Jurors are returning from lunch.
    12:55

    Matthew Waller:
    Or potential jurors, rather.
    1:11

    Matthew Waller:
    The jurors are seated. The judge is at the bench. The courtroom is still.
    1:12

    Matthew Waller:
    The courtroom is the Central Jury Room on the first floor of the 11-story Midland County Courthouse.
    1:14

    Matthew Waller:
    Prosecutor Eric Nichols is beginning. He is introducing John Best, an attorney in the 51st Judicial District, which includes San Angelo.
    1:14

    Matthew Waller:
    “Being on a jury in our system of justice is one of the highest civic duties,” he says.
    1:16

    Matthew Waller:
    “You will be called the judges of the facts,” Nichols said.
    1:17

    Matthew Waller:
    The process is called “voir dire” which means, to tell the truth. Questions are asked to see whether a potential juror will be fair and impartial.
    1:19

    Matthew Waller:
    “Just because you heard something about a case does not automatically disqualify you,” Nichols said.
    He said that one must also have arrived at a conclusion because of the hearsay.
    1:22

    Matthew Waller:
    Jurors are raising blue, numbered cards to answer questions, such as whether anyone personally knows anyone with the prosecution or defense. A few cards went up for Midland defense attorney Tom Morgan, but no one said it would prejudice them.
    1:25

    Matthew Waller:
    The prosecution is putting up white poster boards for the jury panel that has the bigamy statute from the Texas penal code.
    Bigamy if one who is legally married marries or purports to marry someone other than the spouse under circumstances that would constitute a marriage but for the defendant being legally married.
    Or the person lives in the state with another person as if married, or in a common law marriage.
    1:27

    Matthew Waller:
    The state can prove either being married or living in common law marriage, Nichols said.
    1:29

    Matthew Waller:
    “Is there anyone out there who believes it’s okay for an adult to marry other multiple adults?” Nichols asked. Four cards went up
    1:30

    Matthew Waller:
    One person lifted card to say that a person should be able to be married and live with as many other people under the appearance of marriage.
    1:31

    Matthew Waller:
    Jurors are lifting blue cards to answer questions from Nichols.
    1:32

    Matthew Waller:
    No one said they would require the state to approve motive when asked.
    1:37

    Matthew Waller:
    Nichols explains the difference between direct and circumstantial evidence, comparing direct evidence to seeing snow falling, and circumstantial evidence being seeing snow on the ground the next morning as to believing that it snowed the night before.
    1:41

    Matthew Waller:
    Nichols said “The law does not require any of that whiz bang stuff,” referring to DNA or finger prints. He asked if anyone would require it. No cards went up.
    1:43

    Matthew Waller:
    29 potential jurors said they would have a problem judging another human being. There are abut 150 potential jurors.
    1:45

    Matthew Waller:
    Nichols asks about whether there are any experience with law enforcement officer that would cause to be unfair. About 10 cards went up.
    1:55

    Matthew Waller:
    Nichols uses baseball umpire metaphor, being an umpire at your child’s baseball team, and still being fair to the other team.
    “You have to decide the case strictly on evidence,” Nichols said.
    1:56

    Matthew Waller:
    Nichols asks if anyone read or about case that would form an opinion? Five cards went up.
    1:57

    Matthew Waller:
    Nichols asks if anyone has been on a hung jury. Three cards went up.
    1:58

    Matthew Waller:
    Nichols asks if anyone would have trouble with a trying a case in Midland that arose out of Schleicher County.
    2:02

    Matthew Waller:
    The case arose out of indictments from an April 2008 law enforcement raid on the FLDS Yearning for Zion Ranch in Schleicher County based on allegations of sexual abuse.
    2:03

    Matthew Waller:
    One person said he had been out to the YFZ Ranch. He may explain more before the judge, Nichols said.
    2:04

    Matthew Waller:
    Nielsen’s attorney David Botsford is presenting now.
    2:04

    Matthew Waller:
    “How do you feel about Mr. Nielsen sitting here right now?” Botsford said.
    2:04

    Matthew Waller:
    “No opinion,” one man called on said.
    2:05

    Matthew Waller:
    Under Botsford’s questioning, ten people raised their cards to say they would vote guilty for Nielsen right now.
    2:09

    Matthew Waller:
    Six people said they could not follow the judges instructions about waiting until the case is proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
    2:11

    Matthew Waller:
    “What would you want your lawyer to do?” Botsford said.

    “Get me off,” one woman said.

    Botsford asked if one would want a lawyer to fight for his or her client.
    2:13

    Matthew Waller:
    Botsford talks about how reasonable doubt is the highest standard of proof, higher than the standard required for the state to take children away from parents.
    2:15

    Matthew Waller:
    Botsford asks a potential juror about definition of reasonable doubt. “You feel sure,” the potential juror said.
    2:18

    Matthew Waller:
    Botsford, Nielsen’s attorney, asks whether people know each other on the jury panel. Most of the cards go up. “I’ve never seen that happen in Austin,” he said.
    2:20

    Matthew Waller:
    Botsford has the jurors promise that knowing others won’t prejudice their judgment.
    2:20

    Matthew Waller:
    One juror says he is probably prejudiced against Nielsen because of something he read or heard about Nielsen.
    2:22

    Matthew Waller:
    Botsford asks if anyone can’t put aside the YFZ Ranch raid. 8 cards go up.
    2:23

    Matthew Waller:
    Defense asks if anyone would be prejudiced because of Nielsen being FLDS. About 30 cards go up.
    2:26

    Matthew Waller:
    Defense asks about whether someone has gotten a common law marriage certificate. One juror says yes.
    2:26

    Matthew Waller:
    Four others say they have also been common-law married.
    2:29

    Matthew Waller:
    We’re in Midland at the bigamy trial of Wendell Loy Nielsen, who has been charged with three counts of bigamy. We’re in the jury selection process.
    2:30

    Matthew Waller:
    The defense is asking questions of potential jurors, and is presently asking about potential jurors’ relationships with law enforcement, about whether people wouldn’t reach an appropriate verdict because of law enforcement connections.
    2:32

    Matthew Waller:
    One card went up saying a law enforcement experience or relationship would say them.
    2:37

    Matthew Waller:
    The defense, David Botsford, is reading off probation conditions. No night clubs, restrictions on where you live, who you live with, etc.
    2:44

    Matthew Waller:
    One man says he must have the exact location. Judge Moore protests with a hypothetical situation where a woman gets sexually assaulted in a moving vehicle. The potential said he still would want the exact location of the crime. Judge Moore excused the potential juror.
    2:46

    Matthew Waller:
    More than 20 potential jurors said they would require an eye witness to the crime, but the defense asked that if the judge instructed, could they do without the eye witness. One juror said no.
    2:48

    Matthew Waller:
    Five said they could not sit in judgment, even with the judge’s instructions to do so..
    2:52

    Matthew Waller:
    During defense’s jury questioning, the judge impatiently asks if anyone can find anyone guilty if the state hasn’t proven their case and if the defendant doesn’t testify. No cards went up.
    2:53

    Comment From STReader
    How many potential jurors are left now??
    2:53

    Matthew Waller:
    There are 153 potential jurors. Only one has been excused. They’re still all answering questions from the defense.
    2:56

    Matthew Waller:
    The defense attorney, David Botsford, is asking jurors one by one if they can be fair and impartial.
    “No problems. I can be fair and impartial,” the jurors often intoned.
    2:57

    Matthew Waller:
    Several people have said they could not be fair and impartial within the first three rows.
    3:00

    Matthew Waller:
    The defense is asking one more row of a couple dozen potential jurors if they can be fair and impartial.
    “Do you have a problem with me?” Botsford has been asking. No one has said they have a problem with him, and he said that part doesn’t matter as long as the potential juror could be fair and impartial.
    3:02

    Matthew Waller:
    “I do think you’re wasting time,” one woman said, and a few potential jurors started to clap and then stopped.
    3:02

    Matthew Waller:
    The questioning from the prosecution and defense is now done.
    3:04

    Matthew Waller:
    The attorneys and the judge are discussing at the bench. He just gave the potential jurors a break for an unspecified amount of time.
    3:21

    Comment From ThirdCousin
    Thank you so much for doing this. This kind of access is truly helpful.
    3:21

    Matthew Waller:
    Our pleasure
    3:22

    Matthew Waller:
    Over lunch, Wendell Loy Nielsen was eating a Blizzard with three other men dressed as FLDS men do.
    3:24

    Matthew Waller:
    The attorneys and the judge are still engrossed in an inaudible conference at the bench. Potential jurors can be heard outside the room.
    3:29

    Matthew Waller:
    The judge has given the attorneys 15 minutes to finish off what was happening at the bench.

    “Be patient,” Judge Moore told those potential jurors still seated in the courtroom.
    3:41

    Matthew Waller:
    We’re in Midland at the bigamy trial of Wendell Loy Nielsen, who has been charged with three counts of bigamy. We’re in the jury selection process.

    The defense and prosecution have taken potential jurors through questioning to see who will be the best fair and impartial jurors.
    3:49

    Matthew Waller:
    We’re still waiting on the judge and attorneys to finish conferencing at the bench.
    3:51

    Matthew Waller:
    The judge has named a jury.
    3:51

    Matthew Waller:
    12 members and 2 alternates
    3:52

    Matthew Waller:
    Now we’ll go upstairs to another courtroom and swear in the jury.
    3:59

    Matthew Waller:
    Just took an elevator ride to the tenth floor with the prosecutor, four FLDS members including Wendell Loy Nielsen, another reporter, and the court reporter.
    4:00

    Matthew Waller:
    There are six women and eight men composing the 12 jurors and two alternates.

    The judge swore them in.
    4:01

    Comment From Flyonthewall
    What is the male / female makeup of the jury? (including alternates)
    4:02

    Comment From utahn
    What time does the trial start tomorrow?
    4:02

    Matthew Waller:
    It should start at 9 a.m., the judge has said.
    4:03

    Matthew Waller:
    The judge is giving instructions on keeping away from media.
    4:04

    Matthew Waller:
    To stay away from news about the trial in general.
    4:11

    Matthew Waller:
    “You’re just not supposed to discuss this with anyone,” Judge Moore said.
    4:11

    Matthew Waller:
    The jury has been dismissed. The trial starts tomorrow at 9 a.m. See you then.
    4:24

    [RSS] Writer: Standard-Times

    [RSS] LIVE: Wendell Loy Nielsen court proceedings
    Close

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  69. I appreciate the coverage that Matthew has provided. I might have missed it, but are they allowing photos to be taken inside? outside?

    Is Trent there?

    How do we know that it is really Wendall N.?

    ——
    Warrens rantings actually run along the same line/theories that are posted on the internet concerning the LDS and the New World Order only room for one Church/ gotta have it all way of thinking. Just say’n.
    —–

    Third Cousin – I don’t like seeing you sad.
    —-
    Texski – if your out there- I miss seeing you and I miss the “old house”.

    FBI in Utah are slower than molasses and should take lessons from others in the org. that work and show their progress.

    I still think Polygamy is wrong and should continue to be against the law and laws enforced.

    Hey OZ- If you still can’t call- put it in a letter. And mail it. Mail it to me. Thanks.
    Walton

  70. Walton, Matt knows Wendell as does Eric and the entire prosecution team. There is no way that it isn’t really Wendell.

  71. “How do we know that it is really Wendall N.?”

    We don’t.

    And it isn’t.

    It’s really Lyle.

    Love,

    Ozzie and the Minions

  72. Here’s the San Angelo paper on the subject of the jury being seated:

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2012/mar/21/jury-seated-in-flds-bigamy-case-in-midland/

    IMO it appears the judge runs a tight ship and gets down to business.
    Wendell will find it’s not like Utah, this serious business, if convicted of all three counts, the three strikes your out rules come into play. This is three felonies. In most case like this the sentence if found guilty on all counts, would run concurrent, but an angry jury or judge could have sentences stacked where he would serve each 10 years sentence separately for a total of 30 years.

    Boy should have kept the plea bargain, not smart Wendell to put yourself at risk of the rest of your life in Huntsville, TX. Lordy, lordy, ole Wendell’s going to sing those Texas prison blues.

  73. Here’s the SLTrib’s take on the story:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53765116-78/texas-flds-nielsen-trial.html.csp

    Enjoyed the comments where posters were posting the lyrics of another one bites the dust.

  74. Here’s the song in honor of Wendell who surely will bite the dust:

  75. Thanks Proud Texan. What happened to Walther? Did anyone ever ask her?

    Ozzie and the Minions – A BADI ??? lol Seriously? LOL

    That old fart is so busy watching reruns of Mr. Ed and My Favorite Martian that he hasn’t learned about google this number.

    Did Vance Barlow ever find his dirt packer machine? You know, the big dirt pounder that he put out on bids?

    Walton

  76. Missed ya Walton. Don’t worry, my sadness was in regard to the shocking apathy regarding David Nuffer. I’ve bounced back.

  77. Do any of you folks here have an idea why Warren suddenly had a change of heart through January to June of 2007 at purgatory? I thought maybe it was cause the prosecution was trying to introduce the rape tape around that time but that wasnt until September of that year around the time of his Utah trial. Is there any evidence of a court filing or something that made him realize he was in deep du du? He was feeling so bad he actually tried commiting suicide so it’s obvious something was eating at his conscience pretty bad. Makes you wonder if their has been other incidents similar to this one at the other prisons. Hmmmm….

  78. Anon, do you mean his confession to his brother and to the court about being unworthy and not having ever been the prophet since his father’s passing? Admitting some pretty heinous sexual sins, I thought the confession I watched looked authentic. But of course I can’t know. If you haven’t seen his tearful and apparently heart felt confession to his brother Nephi, it is readily available on youtube. I’ll publish a link shortly.

  79. Forgive me if you already have seen this, anon. There’s more than one part, watch them all.

  80. Anon. @11:08 – there was a lot of stuff going on back then. Brooke had written a lot of stories but then she also shared a LOT of information on her blog. I think most of it can still be found at the Trib. I remember that they even brought in some of his own “healing” Doctors.

    They had the cameras in the courtroom during that trial and Judge Shumate was VERY patient with both sides. He gave everyone room to present their case. On the day of sentencing – No cameras. Whisked in and out they say. Gone. Like no tomorrow.

    Warren having a change of heart? Warren showed his true side when he was court ordered to give up the whereabouts of this one mans wife and child. From what I remember he was to be fined until he told the Judge where they were.

    And then… Remember Johnnie Jessop or Geidon? Warren didn’t share nothing. Not a thing.

    AND… Parley Jeffs Dutson? Warren and Co. wouldn’t say a thing about all that. Parley did a really really bad thing. Really bad. It is still my opinion that he was a product of his enviroment and the system failed him on every level. It makes no sense that one cult counsels another.

    I understand why Warren and Co. have done some of the things that they’ve done. I don’t understand why they along with some of the other cults in Utah are being treated with kid gloves.


    I’ve deleted my account over at the Trib. I said a lot of things on the Romney thread that I am sure hurt some feelings. I didn’t say them to hurt people. I posted things to make people aware. some of them knew about the things I said and some didn’t. I don’t take back what I’ve said. I just wish that I could learn how to say things without hurting peoples feelings.
    Walton

  81. Concerning Warrens confession- There was a long stretch that I had to work. Long long hours. Day after day.

    I was on my 32nd day of working 14-16 hour days. I was getting uglier (not just in appearance but really bad attitude) and my boss at that time put up the new once again revised schedule. I was once again scheduled without a day off. I ripped it off the board tore it up and told him what he could do with the shredded paper.

    I scared him. He told me to go home and come back in two days.

    I then told him I loved him. I didn’t love him.

    People will say and do all kinds of things when they are tired.

    Warren said he was sorry. Warren wasn’t sorry.
    Warren said Willie was the Prophet. Willie couldn’t be the Prophet.

    The day Rulon died the Church was done. Rulon should never have had the role of Prophet and neither should have Warren. Rulon knew it. Warren knew it. It was over. Done. The fat lady sang twice and no one heard her.
    Walton

  82. Best I can tell, Judge Walther had her reasons for not doing Wendell’s trial and pretty much said it wasn’t anyone else’s business. Apparently the 7th Administrative Judge accepted her reasons and appointed another Judge. Judges aren’t allowed to pick and choose their cases, so her reasons had to be compelling. What I have been told is that it was her choice. No one forced her to step away from the case.

  83. This is huge… Prosecuting Wendell for straight up polyga-bigamy. Utah is going to look awful foolish when other states bring convictions on polygamists without all the special frills of child rape and incest.

    Utah has their work cut out for them, sure, but they can start by going after the leaders like Texas has done.

  84. http://www.chron.com/news/article/Former-FLDS-leader-s-trial-starts-in-West-Texas-3426067.php

    Midland Texas report regarding Wendell’s trial

  85. Interesting the different news outlets that feature articles about the trial. There is not much difference in their reporting styles.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-bigamybre82l08g-20120321,0,7421644.story

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120322/fundamentalist-church-jesus-christ-latter-day-saints-warren-jeffs-polygamy

  86. Matthew Waller: 9:34 am, 03/22/12
    The jurors will go on a “virtual tour” of the ranch, about what was located in a particular building to demonstrate that Nielsen lived there with the other women.

    This is going to get interesting.

    Stay tuned

    PW

  87. Do any of you folks here have an idea why Warren suddenly had a change of heart through January to June of 2007 at purgatory? I thought maybe it was cause the prosecution was trying to introduce the rape tape around that time but that wasnt until September of that year around the time of his Utah trial. Is there any evidence of a court filing or something that made him realize he was in deep du du? He was feeling so bad he actually tried commiting suicide so it’s obvious something was eating at his conscience pretty bad. Makes you wonder if their has been other incidents similar to this one at the other prisons. Hmmmm….

    Anonymous said this on March 21, 2012 at 11:08 PM

    You’re close, Anon. The way I understand it, the FBI interviewed him in Purgatory early 2007 and told him they had heard the rape tape and that it was being submitted – along with the documents, PCs, and other evidence found in the Escalade – to prosecution and the courts. Of course his lawyers were going to try to get it suppressed, but it he didn’t know what was possible at the time the FBI talked to him. It weighed pretty heavily on his mind knowing the tape had been heard by someone other than himself; so he figured the jig was up. Confession and suicide.

    There have been other incidents during his incarceration since then that we are not privy to because of confidentiality rules/laws. Primarily he refuses to eat while ‘fasting and praying.’ Prison personnel end up force-feeding him. That’s why you see scabs under his nose in some photographs of him.

  88. PW,

    Prosecutor Eric Nichols is exceptionally gifted in his ability to draw the “big picture” for jurors in his presentations.

    The right person in the right place at the right time.

  89. Where is Wendell living? Does he still have the home that has the cameras inside?

    Is he maintaining homes for all his wives?

    If Wendell is on trial for bigamy why weren’t the women charged?

    Matt Waller if you can see this : tell me what is Wendell doing while they are talking. Did he have a hat on when he showed up?

    Thanks Walton

  90. http://www.gosanangelo.com/cover-it-live/trial/Wendell-Loy-Nielsen-2/2012/

    Above is the link to the live reporting of the trial. You can ask question of Matt Waller (type them in) and he does respond.

  91. I’ll have to ask later. The twitter live thing is in standby mode.

    I bet Wendell wore a hat. And I bet that while everyone is talking Wendell is doing the hand on the chin/ lean into the conversation so he can hear mode.

    When this trial is over does Utah get the information so they can start working in Utah?

    How about Arizona?

    Canada?

    Walton

  92. David O . Nuffer has been confirmed by the Senate as a federal District Court judge.

    Lifetime appointment.

  93. Says a lot doesn’t it?

    the nuts are taking over and Nurse Ratchett is on vacation. oy

    Walton

  94. I find it interesting, regarding Warrens confession, that he actually never confessed to the rape tape and what happened in the temple unless you want to count it all as the “heavenly sessions that were in deception.” Just a thought…

  95. The rape case surrounding the ‘Holy Ghost’ church in #Magna is fascinating. #WarrenJeffs was brought up in the trial. @fox13now #Utah

    Ben Winslow twitter

  96. earth to walton, texski is here and reading all your paens of wisdom. not so fiesty anymore, but you are bad enough for both of us.

  97. Shall we have a pool on the chances yes or no that Nielsen will beat the bigamy charges?
    I’m kinda worried

  98. guilty, not worried.

    Wendell oughta be though. Judge was pleased the trial was moving along at a fast clip per Waller.

  99. David O . Nuffer has been confirmed by the Senate as a federal District Court judge.

    Lifetime appointment.

    Anonymous said this on March 22, 2012 at 1:21 PM

    Yes that’s correct, the Senate voted 96 to 2 to confirm Nuffer.

    Here’s the SLTrib article:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/53772683-90/nuffer-lee-federal-judge.html.csp

    President Obama got his man approved. Apparently the Whitehouse & US Senate were not concerned with Nuffers ties to FLDS/Warren Jeffs

  100. Disappointing but not surprising.

  101. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2012/mar/22/defense-argues-flds-celestial-marriages-arent/

    Synopsis from yesterdays court hearing/Wendell

  102. LaughingPanfish writes:

    FLDS are used to flapping their lips to convince one another of horsepucky fairytales. They’re even used to the penises in Suits in the theocracy of Utah buying into it.

    Texans have better sense, as do most Americans.

  103. Interesting editorial:

    http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-67-15644-brenda-fischer-was-given-to-warren-jeffs-as-a-1.html

  104. Fundamentalist Utah sect leader guilty of rape, faces life in prison.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53773395-78/dalton-bautista-rape-church.html.csp#disqus_thread

  105. The comment in cityweekly is mostly correct, except Vaughn became Brenda’s grandfather, not father. Brenda Lei wasn’t alive when all of the custody stuff was going on.

  106. Matthew Waller ‏ @waller_matthew Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
    There may be “battle of experts” on family law when ex #FLDS leader’s bigamy trial continues Monday.

    ———————————————–

    If the defendant allows his attorney to present a defense. Maybe he’ll use J. Dee Roundy, he passed himself off as a lawyer to visit Warren during nonvisiting hours at the Tom Green County Jail.

  107. Merril’s attorney also attempted a “this marriage doesn’t count under the Texas statutes” defense.

    That worked out well for Merril.

  108. My concern is if the jurors take into the account the ages of the “wives” then they may decide gee it can’t be a “real” bigamous marriage if the wife was 63 so there fore none of the marriages are bigamous….

    hhg

  109. Let’s compare experts in Family Law:

    The State has the guy who wrote the book on Family Law that everyone uses. The Defense has Joe Blow Family Lawyer.

    Who would you believe?

  110. I guess I am overestimating the intelligence of Nielsen, he had a probationary deal and he goes to court with the record wins Texas to polygamists? I keep thinking he has something “in the pocket” that makes it seem worth the risk.

  111. Hmmm, hellohellogoodbye, do you think 60 year olds cant be active wives? Remember that Barbara was Merril’s favorite wife regardless of the rest of his younger ones………

  112. In this case the state of Texas made a decision for some reason to deal with this guy’s marital “situation.” I don’t really get why they singled him out, because of the other bigamy going on at ranch, but maybe it is because he was “sealed” to women AND their own daughters during same time period, as some articles are saying? I suppose this will be brought out in sentencng phase maybe, since it doesn’t seem to be part of the charges being tried. Same articles say he was involved with witnessing and/or performing “marriages” involving very young girls also? If that’s true, why was he not tried like merrill for those things?
    Then he was given a chance to just live on probation instead of going to jail, and he rejected it. For a change, someone is finally going to prob get jail for bigamy, but we are so used to more outrageous things this group does toward its young, that now some of us don’t get why Texas is bothering with this guy over middle -aged and older women. Sounds like Neilsen has much weightier things he’s done that they can prove with records, but he won’t be tried separately for those things. To me this is very confusing now. Well, he dumped his probation offer so HOPEFULLY now he will have the crazy mother-daughter “sealings” and underage bride ceremony stuff mentioned in court, if they haven’t already done so during first go-around months ago. Anyway, what a bunch.. WHHaaatt a bunch, these people.

    I just cannot understand a group where the daughter and mother take the same guy. They are so heavily conditioned. This proves it. They just get into a rut (no pun intended) and stay there. Like George Foreman naming all his sons George.

  113. Pilot posted more pics. http://www.eldoradoflds.us/03-24-2012/

  114. Any idea what all the rectangular pits that have been dug out in the half-coliseum courtyard are for?

  115. HHG, what I think he “has in his pocket” is the fact that Warren told him to ditch the deal and join the rest of the flock in prison so he too could be the subject of numerous revelations.

  116. Anon @ 9:01, bathroom facilities.

  117. Probably a place to put spy equip…I mean utilities.

  118. Spy equipment is already in place.

    the markings on the ground are from the legs of the spaceship.

    The holes in the ground are pressure points. When the space ship sits atop the fishbowl the pressure from the engines of the spaceship has to go somewhere.

    I think the reason for a lot of the debris in some of the photos is due to an overshot landing of the practice spaceship landing. An awful lot of dead/dying trees (probably due to the extreme heat from the spaceship.)

    Walton
    I think the pilot must have either gotten a new camera OR a new air machine. some of those photos look like they were taken on another planet.

  119. Awesome pics from the pilot!

    Notes:

    The Halfrodome: Looks like a large room constructed over the plumbing, indicating a Baptism font. Or snazzy bathroom facilities.

    If they are hoping for an April 6 opening, they are hopelessly behind.

    The rectangular holes, note also the piles of black earth (manure)waiting in piles. I think they are Tree holes.

    And its ironic they brought in Bullcrap by the truckload.

    The dead chapparral in the area looks to be a fire hazard, esp when all that green growth dries up.

    See they brought their junk yard ways with them from Shortcreek. Seems just like home.

    Not a nail or hammer has gone near the old Statue base in months.

  120. Are they using the Temple?

  121. http://badlipreading.tumblr.com/

    A little political humour just for the hell of it.

    Walton – Love your explanation of the ranch photos.

  122. Are you sure those are p its, or large pipes. What I though were holes were clearly pipes when I expanded the photos.

  123. Is there a group consensus around the spiral wire around the top edge of the amphitheater? Concertina wire? Or are they just laying in electrical wiring for lighting to be added later?

    HFalls

  124. The “pits” or “pipes” remind me of bunkers, aka, Vietnam.

  125. Here’s a question to put to all you people on this blog and it’s a question I have never seen asked that I’ve been aware of.
    Question: who called the FBI and turned Warren Jeffs in?
    This question will require some folks with a good memory to answer. Who was aware of the Escalade being purchased and it’s delivery to Las Vegas New Era Manufacturing? Who was aware Warren Jeffs was coming to Vegas that day? As has always been in history, it’s your closest friends that are your greatest threat. My opinion? Somebody on the inside track made a quick call. Was it Mr. Wayman, Isaac, somebody at New Era??? Hmmmm….

  126. Why wasn’t it just a lucky traffic stop anon @4:24?

  127. Mom, I’m not sure why he was singled on for bigamy only charges. It is my hope that after he is tried and convicted solely on bigamy that they will go after more of the men at the ranch, who while they didn’t marry an underage girl, they are married to more than 1 woman. I think it might be that he participated in the triple play that married Warren to Merrianne as a witness and his stepdaughter is the one who was given to Leroy Jessop as a 15 year old bride. That “marriage” cost Leroy 75 years. Raymond got the best deal out of the trio of “husbands” getting only 10 years.

  128. Someone mentioned above that perhaps Nielsen was ordered to change his mind by Warren on his plea bargain. I admit that didn’t occur to me because despite the fact I keep thinking I “understand” the situation I would never have thought to think that Nielsen could still “believe” any of the spew of Warren…. so it boggles my mind to think of the depth of cult/belief/faith that you could be on the very inside of the knowledge tree and still believe it all.

  129. So agree, HHG

  130. Believe it that Wendell rescinded his original plea because Warren commanded him to. Merril went through the same thing. He just ditched his plea deal before it got as far as Wendell’s did. Warren told both of them to go to trial.

    There are several reasons why Wendell would do that not the least of which was hanging on to the good will and kind regards of his huge family and be looked upon as a martyr for the cause by the faithful. He didn’t just stop believing once he was booted.

    You would be appalled at how many men are still “repenting from afar” hoping to get back in Warren’s good graces. They still worship him and what they “believe” he stands for. It’s the booted women who get a clue and figure out how tragic their situation was and how lucky they are to be out.

    The other thing to understand is that now ALL the men who are still “in” are hardly any better off than those who have been booted. They are essentially eunuchs… just caretakers of their families. No sleeping together, no sex, no fun, no more marriages… suffering almost as much as Warren is in prison. Which of course is the point in making them eunuchs. He’s virtually imprisoning them to circumstances as close to his own as he can. “If I can’t, then they can’t.” And they’ll do what he says… all for the just cause of preparing for Zion.

    What I want to know now is, where is Lyle? What new dastardly things has he done?

    Oh…
    I too don’t believe it was “a lucky traffic stop.” Someone ratted Warren out.

  131. WSJ’s phone priviledges are back. What will the rest of 2012 bring in FLDS land?? Sigh…

  132. * Lyle has a new reality show that is about to appear on TLC
    * Lyle is shaking hands with Knudson at the Bank
    * Lyle is taking scuba diving classes ( after the Powell pipe line fell thru he has to go under water to search for Jeremy Johnsons hidden coins)
    * Lyle is playing rock, paper, scissors with Winston Blackmore
    * Lyle is training for Paul Murphy’s job and Paul Murphy is going to work for TLC

    Who would Warren call? that FLDS phone number given in all those revelation mail outs? Shurtleff?

    What should be next on this line up – should be some action on the part of Utah and Arizona and the Federal Govt. Time is long over due for them to stand up and do their part. Had they been doing their jobs we wouldn’t be disussing all this 8 years later.

    Walton

  133. Rebecca Musser is testifying now in Wendell’s trial

    PW

  134. The defense doesnt want to have the words “Plural Marriage” used

    HA HA HAH AH AHAH HA HA HA

    They are written all over the documents. Whats he want to call them?

    Lil Ho’s on the Prairie?

  135. He was probably singled out for prosecution because they had the best collection of evidence.

  136. Lil Ho’s on the Prairie! HAHAHA good one…snort!

  137. Some articles on warren’s arrest near Las Vegas.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy514.html

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=455038

    http://articles.cnn.com/2006-08-30/justice/jeffs.arrest_1_fugitive-polygamist-warren-steed-jeffs-polygamist-leader?_s=PM:LAW

  138. Bountiful polygamists could be charged following landmark court case http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bountiful-polygamists-could-be-charged-following-landmark-court-case/article2381516/ via @globeandmail

  139. YOU CAN”T FIX STUPID !!!! LOL ..other-Anon

  140. thanks for the link….
    it is frustrating that those commenting have not read all of the information available through the canadian court test case and raise a lot of the same old same old stuff….

    hhg

  141. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53799556-191/nielsen-interesting-jeffs-marrying.html.csp

    Jokes and Jabs at the trial

  142. I didn’t get what Rebecca was saying about some marriages are from time to eternity and others where just for time here on earth. I get it on those whose husbands had died previously. But, what about all those exed? did they get remarried for time to eternity or just time on earth?

  143. In Rulons time and possibly some of warrens there were a quite a few people that went and made a baby. Rulon in some cases married them. But it wasnt a “sealing” or for time and all eternity. Most weddings that are arranged are time and eternity. The plygs concider this a contract with the G man. Women cant go to the celestial kingdom unless they are sealed for time and eternity to a rightous man. So basicly if the prophet marries you to an A-Hole your pretty much screwed as a woman and the priesthood dictates you have to be a good wife anyway…………or else, oh wait your already going to hell.

  144. Warren left one of his retread wives dangling after her husband was exed.

    He married her for “Time only” while dangling the carrot of a proxy marriage to the deceased Rulon Jeffs for “Time and Eternity.”

    I don’t know if she’s still dangling in eternity purgatory or not.

  145. If the husbands an A-hole the woman can get a release from him & get sealed to a righteous man, if he’s not an A-hole ,it all depends on that & then sealed together for time & eternity or just for time on earth example: my dad had case like that with 1 of his wives,after my dad died another of them was sealed to a man for time, until he was exed out by warren,so according to what I wrote at beginning of paragraph it’s possible to do that type of sealing, that’s what I was told by my dad & heard Rulon Jeffs & LeRoy Johnson say, in my dad’s case it went that way & was okay with L. Johnson & R.Jeffs, BTW my dad was not an A-hole ….other-Anon

  146. From the running tweet on the trial it seems that the lawyer defending Nielsen doesn’t have a lot to work with – he tried to get living together isn’t bigamy route; then the bigamy law is unconstitutional (not allowed) and then change the penalty of the bigamy law back from it felony status….
    hhg

  147. Thanks everyone for the clarifications. Learn something new everytime I read this blog. I agree with you OO – if you are a woman you are at the mercy of the men in charge. “Keep sweet” or go to hell are your only choices. Although just being a woman is hell on earth.

  148. Here’s my explanation of “time” versus “eternity” marriage vows.

    The way it was BEFORE Warren:
    A woman is sealed to a man for time and all eternity. That can’t be changed unless one of them turns bad or apostatizes. More focus is on the faithfulness of the man – or lack thereof. He doesn’t have nearly the leeway in the complaint department against his wife – unless she commits adultery – as she does against him. After all he’s the MAN; he’s the one with the holy priesthood conferred on him; it’s up to him to make it work… to work with her and see to it she obeys him.

    If a release (FLDS-speak for divorce) is granted for whatever reason, the eternity part of the sealing is null and void. The faithful woman can (if she wishes) be sealed for time and eternity to another faithful man. She usually has a fair amount of say in the matter.

    If a faithful man dies (very common scenario), his wives (if they wish) may be sealed to another faithful man – not necessarily all to the same man – for time only. Typically it’s to a brother of the deceased but always someone who holds the same or higher priesthood office, which is usually Elder.

    If a priesthood president (prophet) dies, his wives may be sealed to the next “prophet” (same priesthood calling) for time or they may choose to live with a close family member until their own death.

    Generally speaking, most women detached from their “eternity” husbands for whatever reason, are sealed to another man for time. The “time” husband is a proxy for the “eternity” husband. The rationale is: the man is charged with taking care of her just wants and needs; he becomes her caretaker – a steward of someone else’s “property” – for want of a better word. If she’s still of childbearing age, she may choose to have children with her “time” husband but those children will belong to the original “eternity” husband in the next life.
    .

    (Of course this brings up all kinds of drop-jaw questions about the craziness built into these scenarios; but suffice it to say, the illogic and stupidity of it all is just one of the reasons I’m no longer there and thanking my lucky stars I never had to suffer a moment of Warren’s idiocy.)
    .

    Aside from that, we now have…

    The way it is AFTER Warren:
    There is just no way to rationalize the extreme disfunctionality of what he has done to men, women, and children of the faith. The destruction of basic family units – polygamous though they may be – is nothing short of insane – pure psychological torture. It is this and the whole underage marriage (quite rare before Warren) debacle that has my jaw dropping.

  149. Totally enjoying the closing arguments and exchanges between prosecutor Nichols and defender Botsford in the Nielsen case. Excellent!

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/cover-it-live/trial/Wendell-Loy-Nielsen-5/2012/

  150. The whole thing is a slippery slope. Im not seeing a win either way it goes.

  151. hahaha flds expert……….that is an interesting term there.

  152. Sure makes you wonder just who that might be. I mean, there are experts, and then there are ex-spurts.

  153. I wonder where one goes to school to be a FLDS Expert. Is that zoology or physchology. Or is it just some guy sayin now dont corner em they get all violent n stuff. Whatcha do iz get on yur neez like ya prayin and they come in real close.

  154. Here is the ultimate explanation of EXPERT

    Hope the video works, crossing my fingers!

  155. From gosanangelo:

    Matthew Waller: Veda was 65 at the time of the marriage, because a woman must have a man to get to heaven. ‘They’re not trying to create the legal relationship of being married.” Botsford said.

    Methinks Botsford stepped in it with that as a defense.

    Veda Barlow Johnson Nielsen and Margaret Lucille Jessop Johnson Barlow Nielsen were first married to Leroy Sunderland Johnson.

    They are two of Uncle Roy’s widows.

    Presumably their marriages to Nielsen would be for “Time Only.”

    Unless Warren has posthumously excommunicated Uncle Roy.

  156. To become an FLDS expert you must study bacteria and the evolutionary
    process that forms into an amoebic colony. From this perspective you can observe the micro. Micro Management within community has a specific flavor and texture to it. There are super bacteria and there is your basic pathogen. With all the players identified… the story lays out nicely. 🙂

  157. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2012/mar/27/jury-deliberating-in-nielsen-case/

    Jury is deliberating. This should be interesting. I have to say thought, that Wendell’s attorney did not appear, from what I read, to have put on much of a defense. I could be wrong.

  158. Video was a little ADHD but funny in the context of Nielsen’s attorney putting up a “war of experts” only to fail before he started… (he was a criminal law expert not a family law expert)…

    So yeah PW his defense didnt have much to work with, and pretty much failed at what chances he had. Not that he had any to begin with – such as he couldnt find his own exhibit one time – and he seems to be following other attorneys mistake, of following his clients reasons of excuses rather than their best chance excuses.

    A real cluster.

    Also of note – Matthew Waller said there was little interaction between Wendell and his Attorney, and Wendell had a slight smile.

    What THAT means IMHO is that Wendell has mentally thrown in the towel and now sees the handwriting on the wall.

    He is toast.

  159. I don’t think the idea was to get off on the charges. I think the whole Idea was to not be ashamed or cop out when it comes to his religion.

    This particular case is push and pull to me. I know people outside of plygdom that have children with mutiple women then neglect child support not to mention thier children. This isnt wrong because its not called “marriage”. But for a man in the flds to at least attemt to be a father to all his kids Its wrong because they call it “marriage”.

    I think this has to do with Texas pride and the dont mess with texas bs than it does about whats technicly right.

    On the other hand if they dont prosicute him It kind of opens the door for people everywhere to being slimeballs and having kids with mutiple women. Judging by what i was reading just dont call it marriage and your good.

  160. Matthew Waller is reporting that the jury has a verdict and has returned to the courtroom.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/cover-it-live/trial/Wendell-Loy-Nielsen-6/2012/

  161. Guilty, guilty, guilty.

    On all three counts of bigamy.

  162. yep kinda figured

  163. And we have one more martyr for the cause to present to the faithful. The faithful are always the persecuted. Proof positive they are favored by god.

    The defense was essentially holding to Warren’s “answer them nothing” strategy.

  164. Bigamy is not about sex or having children, OO.

    It’s about the marriage contract.

    Only one at a time.

  165. As far as martyrs go, Warren had himself martyred within the first three months after Rulon’s death.

    It wouldn’t matter if Texas had not prosecuted the “martyrs.”

    Warren would have created them some other way in order to keep his flock terrified.

  166. Thats because :Wendell went in to face the firing squad not to win his freedom. He knew full well how this would play out. I think he felt guilty for taking the plea.

    Even though I don’t share his beliefs I can respect him. In essence he is saying you can put me in jail but you cant tell me whats right and wrong and you cant tell me what to believe.

    I know many will argue this wasn’t about religion. To you it isn’t but to him it is.

    He made his choices and he gets to live with them.

  167. Ok then whats the reason you only have one “contract” at a time. Whats behind the law now how the law reads? Who is the law protecting?

    Maybe I just dont understand it.

  168. No one is telling Wendell what to believe. Nichols made the point firmly that you can believe anything you want, it is when you act on the beliefs and run afoul of the law that you get into trouble.

  169. It doesn’t matter what the reason is behind the law, it is the law. If you don’t like the law you can try to change it but if you break it then you are subject to prosecution.

  170. Thats the way you see it. Thats the way generally everyone sees it. Its not the way Wendell sees it.

    Botsford said “None of these ceremonial marriages had a marriage certificate” so Nielsen didn’t know about the ages.

    ok so no contract with other wives?

    forgive my dumbness I’m just trying to understand.

  171. Property rights (as in community property) and financial responsibilities that result from a marriage contract.

    Plus, the cultural/religious norm that marriage is between one man and one woman.

    Others are better suited to carry that banner than I.

    I can understand that for Nielsen it is about his religion.

    “The law” doesn’t care if he is Mormon/FLDS/LDS/Baptist/AssemblyofGod/Methodist/Lutheran/Catholic/Pastafarian/etc.

    Only one marriage contract at a time.

  172. So much for all the discussion about a different Judge ruling differently. New Judge, same result, GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS.

  173. I think thats the problem with the law PT. We are expected to follow it blindly just the way Wendel follows Warren.

    Its been my understanding that laws are in place to protect the people. I just want to know whos it protecting. If laws are laws just to regenerate revenue other than tax i think we need to do something about the whole damn government not just the laws.

    I’m going to live the best I know how and damn the law. If the law has a problem with it they can stick it. If they use force I’m not above violence and law enforcement will have to work for it and possibly even shoot my ass.

  174. Some of the marriages that Wendell participated in included his stepdaughters and there is no way that you can tell me that he couldn’t have looked at the 2 Canadian girls who were 12 and at Brenda Lei Fischer and thought they were anything but little girls. They were all 12 years old for Pete’s sake.

  175. Well if Warren didn’t ex their dead husband, then they are good in enterity without getting married again – right? Marriage for “time only” doesn’t take care of them after life just helps take care of them while they are still living if I understand right. Botsford saying the marriages were about their eternity was a stretch I thought.

  176. I’m not sure Botsford has a handle on anything FLDS. He just made a comment that some of the marriages were ordered by the profit. Duh, they all were ordered by the profit.

  177. Its been my understanding that laws are in place to protect the people. I just want to know whos it protecting. If laws are laws just to regenerate revenue other than tax i think we need to do something about the whole damn government not just the laws.
    Overlord Offtopic said this on March 28, 2012 at 10:50 AM

    according to the Canadian court: In his ruling, Bauman said while the law does infringe on religious freedom, it is justified given the harm polygamy causes to children, women and society.

  178. Overlord,

    One issue apart from the actual harms that may or may not have occurred within the “marriages” that the law is meant to prevent (such as property right and financial responsibilities mentioned by anonymous) is the fact that participating in and ordinancing of the relationships demonstrates a disregard for the law. If every person in the United States is allowed to pick and chose which laws they think applies to them chaos is the result. The society only works when the majority of people chose to obey laws regardless of their personal preference with the knowledge that such obedience is a shared responsibility.
    The proper method when faced with a law that you perceive to be frivolous or prejudicial is to either work to change that law through the lobby/legislative process, or to demonstrate the prejudicial nature of the law by joining with many others in mass civil disobedience. The point is to make the civil disobedience change the minds of the remainder of the society, not simple to get ones own way.
    What frosts myself and I have gathered from other commentators, is that the FLDS never attempted any of the above strategies. Their law breaking was not intended to cause the rest of society to examine our morals, they clearly could care less, they simply chose not to obey the laws or to even acknowledge that the laws of this nation are supreme to their own.

  179. I hear ya on Botsford, PT.

  180. Well said Anon @11:11.

  181. I am sorry it is me HHG for 11:11 anon

  182. WSJ — 11-26-2003:

    “Then I revealed to Wendell that the Lord wanted me to receive this thirteen-year-old bride….”

    Nielsen knew.

  183. And yeah, what hhg/11:11 anon said.

  184. And Yo! Utah!

    …on second thought, nevermind.

  185. Again: “you can’t fix stupid” ha,ha!!!! other-Anon

  186. Defense attorney David Botsford argued Nielsen’s marriages were never intended to be legal unions, but rather celestial marriages that sect members believed would give the women, aged 65, 63 and 43, a path to heaven.

    “It’s all for a woman’s eternal salvation,” Botsford said, according to the Standard Times.

    ——————————————————

    That’s just twisted words that really mean “Women aren’t allowed equal access to God.”

    In true Christianity, Salvation is through belief in Jesus Christ, not through husbands.

    Of course FDLS is not the only religion that attempts to keep women from having equal rights with men: Catholicism, mainstream Mormonism, Islam, all seek to keep women as second class citizens.

  187. Sadly, so do some conservative protestant denominations. Example – women not serving in leadership roles in church, etc.

    So what happens to these people? Must they turn against their families and religious ties now? Will they unravel? Are the people on the Yearning for Zion ranch up for more investigations and charges? Are they safe? I do so hope there is not some horrible desperate conclusion to all this like what happened in Waco.

  188. At this juncture, I have more concerns about harm done from within rather than without, Linda.

    Lyle was last spotted on a milk carton.

  189. Warren has already set families against families.

  190. I can’t begin to imagine how difficult it must be between families within the FLDS. Living in fear and mistrust of everyone except their prophet – it is beyond me. I have completely lost contact with my friend within the group and I worry for her and her children and family. It is a concern that contact with friends on the outside is prohibited. I wouldnt put up with that from my own pastor (even if he was my husband!)

  191. Warren got his phone privileges back just in time to find out – his exed president is joining him in the clink.

    Cells of Steel Kingdoms for all! What a wonderful life they lead.

    Good economy right there.

  192. At this point I question whether there’s much difference being in a steel prison cell or the virtual one followers find themselves in now.

    That’s probably terrorist Jeffs’ rationale. The faithful are now like any other Muslim jihadist willing to give up anything or do whatever it takes for unspeakable glory in the afterlife. Suffering and sacrifice in this one is nothing more than a pin prick.

    If you can’t have your wives and children around to take care of you, might as well get the best of care in a state-run steel hotel.

  193. “Its been my understanding that laws are in place to protect the people. I just want to know whos it protecting. If laws are laws just to regenerate revenue other than tax i think we need to do something about the whole damn government not just the laws.
    Overlord Offtopic said this on March 28, 2012 at 10:50 AM
    according to the Canadian court: In his ruling, Bauman said while the law does infringe on religious freedom, it is justified given the harm polygamy causes to children, women and society.
    watergirl said this on March 28, 2012 at 11:10 AM”

    In a democracy, laws can change to become more or less restrictive based on the will of the people expressed through elected representatives and within boundaries established by the constitution.

    Values can change over time and laws generally change in line with those values. That means that to effect change, you have to take a long view and work to change attitudes. Some polygamists have attempted to do just that – but when alarming rates of abuse crop up in some polygamist communities, it undermines those efforts.

    The problem with using religious freedom to justify polygamy, in my opinion, is that polygamy is a social structure. Religious freedom is an individual thing. You are free to believe what you want and to practice your beliefs – as long as you don’t violate any laws. If every member of every religiously-motivated polygamous community made a free and informed decision to participate, I don’t think many people would care. The problem is all the control and coercion that leaders end up exercising over members to make the system work. Isolating and controlling the choices of young girls to ensure a steady supply of polygamous brides may be a religiously motivated act for leaders – but where is the girl’s freedom in all this? If she is undereducated, married and responsible for raising multiple kids by the time she is old enough to think for herself – its pretty hard to claim she made a free, fully informed choice to participate. Polygamy is a hard sell for women who have other choices. There are some that do choose it willingly, but sustaining a large, viable polygamous community requires an ample supply of willing brides. The methods used to ensure that supply are what cause the problems…

    That’s why polygamy is, and should remain illegal in my opinion. It isn’t the individuals who freely decide to take it up who are the concern. It’s the groups that practice it as a matter of faith who cause problems – because they are the ones who end up resorting to coercion and control to keep it going.

  194. I’ve been watching and reading. Now what? What’s the next step?

    Check out this article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/28/us-crime-bigamy-texas-idUSBRE82L0TU20120328 ( I tried to find the article from Matt’s place but couldn’t find it, so I brought it from Rueters)

    From the article: Defense attorney David Botsford argued that Texas bigamy laws do not apply to the marriages practiced by the sect, which teaches that for a man to be among the select in heaven, he must have at least three wives. The Mormon church has condemned the sect, which has an estimated 10,000 followers in North America.

    What I want to know, is does the LDS Church also condemn the Kingstons, Allreds and the others? or is it just those that dress funny? ( I don’t have a problem with the way they dress)

    Someone mentioned in one of the articles that the bigamy laws are rarely prosecuted. That’s not true. There have been quite a few non-FLDS/Mormon cases in other states. And some cases the women have been charged and sentenced.

    There have also been court cases that charge and sentence parents for using their children as tools to “profit” gain, cars, money, drugs etc.
    Some of the parents “giving” their children to marry old men have done so to gain a higher spot in their Heavens or better living conditions etc.

    The fact finding trial out of Canada has shown in detail that the problems within the practice of Polygamy were there before Warren. Warren took it to another level.

    The Kingston clan has shown the many issues inside that group.

    The Allred Group has also shown it’s problems.

    CPark once was the FLDS.

    So now what?

    Walton

  195. Well put Jerrie.

  196. What about the rest?

    http://www.eldoradoflds.us/FLDS-Court/BishopsList.pdf

    Walton

  197. What about what others?

  198. From the Salt Lake Tribune.

    “After a short deliberation, a Texas jury found a former high-ranking follower of Warren Jeffs guilty of bigamy Wednesday.

    Wendell Loy Nielsen, 71, who once stood second to Jeffs, showed no reaction as the verdict was read for each of three felony bigamy counts, the San Angelo Standard-Times reported.”

    Be intersting to see what his penalty is.

  199. http://www.newswest9.com/story/17280042/verdict-is-in-for-former-flds-member-on-trial-in-midland

    News story regarding the trial. Sentencing continues in the morning. There is a picture of Wendell

  200. I hear ya Walton.

    Forgive me – restricted to handheld – please tell me straight probation is fully off the table.

  201. Excellent article on today’s guilty verdict from Mike Watkiss who contrasts Texas efforts to control polygamy related crime with Utah & Arizona.

    http://www.azfamily.com/news/Former-FLDS-leader-found-guilty-of-bigamy-in-Texas-144734935.html

    Flora Jessop also praises Texas over this issue.

  202. http://www.azfamily.com/news/Former-FLDS-leader-found-guilty-of-bigamy-in-Texas-144734935.html

    Here’s video link, hope it works.

  203. No 3C, straight probation isn’t off the table. The jury can consider it.

  204. Dodge parents trade sex with 14-year-old daughter for car payments
    By JOE KOVAC JR.

    From the link: A Dodge County mother and father have been accused of trading sex with their 14-year-old daughter in exchange for monthly payments on their minivan.
    Dodge sheriff’s investigators say the girl’s parents made her do “sexual favors” for the manager of Shorty’s Used Cars in Eastman so they wouldn’t have to make the $281 payment on the 1998 Dodge Caravan they bought two years ago.

    Read more here: http://www.macon.com/2010/03/03/1044616/parents-trade-teen-for-car-payments.html#storylink=cpy

    Walton

  205. I will throw in my personal thought on why polygamy should never be legalized in the US. The very, very long and hard-won battle to give females equal rights and freedoms as males needs to never be allowed to disintegrate. As a result of these improvements over the decades, many females have been able to make important contributions. Many men and boys have been able to take pride in their moms and sisters in a new and better way. Compared to today, females were essentially property not all that long ago even in the US. They could not become the best they could be. They had to take no for an answer even if situations could have been handled better if they had been allowed to get more education. imo there is absolutely no way women and girls could be preserved emotionally if polygamy were legalized across the US. I DO see polygamy as “one of the twin evils” of earlier times, (slavery being the other)–just as the governor of Utah put it in 1953. He was right, even though he was vilified and did not win re-election. He summed up what polygamy creates in the long run.

    I think the spread of std’s would also increase dramatically.

    The New Testament standards for marriage insure dignity in many ways for both genders, and I think adhering to this helped make the US a very strong nation quickly, by historical standards. Who knows but if it might have taken much longer for females to get many rights and freedoms if polygamy had been legal during early US history. Look at the places it is legal and common in today’s world. Would you want to move there? Not me. I can’t think of one nation where polygamy is common, where standards of fairness and decency really exist for females- who tend to be slightly more than half the population in most places. Why subject our nation to turning the clock backwards in order to please several thousand in some nutty groups who disregard many good laws that we have? Doing this would affect our entire population immediately- a population of well over 300 million? No way!

    And I do not consider myself a feminist in the total sense of the word- I am pretty conservative about many things; I see what goes on when people are not exclusive with one another romantically, don’t we all?
    I believe things would get much more chaotic with family law and entitlements if polygamy were legalized. Sure, we all probably know of men who have had kids with more than one woman. But there are plenty of women who have had kids with more than one man, and there are other damaging things going on when you start saying it is ok to let more than two people into a marriage. There are multiplied abuses which will take place sooner or later.
    I faithfully watch Shield and Refuge with Doris Hanson, who grew up in the Kingston clan. Her programs continue to report some of the horrors of early mormon polygamy. It was ugly and sad. Many Americans at the time were aware of it. It has taken Doris numerous shows to cover just a small portion of the material which documents the debauchery and hurtfulness that went on. The suppression of the truth by lds leadership is, imo, probably the only thing that helped mormonism survive this long.
    Grossness of lds leaders and financial escapades was written about in the 1800’s many times. Utah practices had to be reined in strongly multiple times by government. Modern mormonism is now portrayed as upright and extremely Christian, when in fact the early decades had much debauchery and chicanery.
    And look at warren jeffs- he is a guy after Joseph Smith’s heart, yet lds leadership rejects him because the lies about history and polygamy are churning onward just as before. Nowadays, we are supposed to believe mormonism equals the squeaky clean life we should all aspire to, I suppose. When in fact their very deep roots show their predecessors of just a few generations ago were causing plenty of havoc.
    No, mormonism gets its good points straight from Christian teachings- which Joseph Smith soundly condemned! It is indeed a maze of confusion, and our nation should never return to such things as were taught and practiced by Smith and Young. (Or by any of the Islamic nations- or any of the places such as much of Africa, where polygamy is common- and so is mass corruption and very bad grinding poverty.

    Two wrongs never made a right, and never will. Making polygamy ok in the US would be yet another cave-in to an increasingly chaotic social fabric. Look at the extensive abuses of the plyg groups. Look at the cast out boys who have to be helped, and the brainwashed girls. No, it cannot become ok to do any of these things.

    I have had an adult child in severe emotional trauma a number of times in past couple years due to finding out her boyfriends (two in a row- one she foolishly married hastily) were “waltzing” other girls. I had all I could do to keep my daughter from ending up as some statistic in jail or worse, believe me.
    The US has slid very far down the moral scale for years now, to the point where millions who have immigrated here tell of their much more solid marriage and family situations in numerous other nations. The farther we slide the weaker we are going to get. The more confused the young will become. As if they are not having tremendous problems already in the US. Polygamy would not be an improvement. It would bring even more disaster emotionally for women and children, and create even more egotistical and selfish males.
    The legal sanctioning of one person conceiving children with multiple spouses within the same few years would only aid the further disintegration of the US. We need to uphold the strict monogamy values. It helps slow the decline, at least. The only way plyg groups seem to “make it work” is endless mental conditioning. To make widespread polygamy the norm is asking for a mountain of trouble. More heartbroken women than ever, and even more inadequately tended children, and aimless young men. We sure do not need any of those things.

  206. Questions, Questions and more Questions

    This is what Tom Horne Arizona AG was talking about concerning the bill in reference to the Colorado City Police officers

    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/50leg/2r/bills/sb1433p.pdf

    I can only post one link at a time or the post goes into a holding cell

    Walton

  207. Painting a picture:
    Adding to but subtracting from = one more but less than

    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/50leg/1r/bills/sb1433p.pdf

    Walton

  208. Bottom line becomes top line:

    http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2011/02/02/sb1433-the-arizona-tea-party-is-so-american-that-federal-law-does-not-apply/

    SB1433: The Arizona TEA Party is so American that federal law does not apply?

    Seeing thru the fog now?
    Walton

  209. Still a little foggy?

    http://www.moderntimesmagazine.com/page16/AL_SB1433_030811/AL_SB1433_030811.php

    SB 1433 Would Create Foggy Future for Arizona
    By John Guzzon
    Modern Times Magazine .com

    Editor’s note: This is a revised copy of an article that was originally published March 8, 2011. Where needed, editor’s notes will also provide clarification. Read update story here.

    March 8, 2011 — The State of Arizona moved closer to establishing a committee that would attempt to nullify federal laws believed to overstep the bounds of the federal government after the bill died on Thursday, then was reportedly revived and passed along to the House Friday, before officially failing again on the Senate floor March 9.

    ***revised and updated versions with links found at the above link.

    It passed.
    It didn’t pass.
    They passed it again

    Lost in limbo or will it surface under a different name?
    Walton

  210. http://www.azinews.com/2012/03/28/former-flds-president-guilty-of-bigamy-state-bill-reportedly-being-stalled/

    For a number of years, there have been issues with marshals in Colorado City, who are said to be faithful followers of Jeffs and enforce the church’s laws instead of state laws.

    Arizona Attorney General Tom Horne is backing a bill that would allow the state to step in and remove a municipality’s law enforcement and replace it with county sheriff’s personnel.

    Groups working to help victims of abuse in Colorado City and Hildale are reporting S.B. 1433 is being stalled by Speaker of the House Andy Tobin. They say he is refusing to allow the bill to be heard in Committee, attempting to make it “time out.” They claim Jeff Matura, an attorney and lobbyist for the FLDS, has been misinforming state officials about the situation there.

    In February, Horne said the bill was vital for protecting the safety and well-being of Arizona citizens.

    —-

    Hmmmmmm
    Walton

  211. Sweeping up the nut shells and trying to make it all look tidy and neat.

    If they pass SB 1433 they won’t have to worry about enforcing the laws of Polygamy or much of anything else.

    Snake oil salesmen in shiny suits. imo

    Now…. with all that being said… I want to think that Tom Horne didn’t have this in mind when he was talking about taking care of the Polygamy issues.

    I want to believe he is NOT one of those snake oil salesmen.


    Utah and Arizona have to follow thru with charging those involved not only with the FLDS but with the other groups as well.

    The hemming and hawing is over.

    Looking back at all this stuff and I just shake my head. What a bunch!!
    If the truth be told the BS wouldn’t be stacked so high.
    Walton

  212. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2012/mar/28/nielsen-found-guilty-on-all-three-bigamy-counts/

  213. I feel so sorry for the girls and ladies whose names are on a list of brides. Gee, how that cheapens the concept of being a bride and vows within a marriage before God and witnesses. I just cant take it in.

  214. well, given that most FLDS are forbidden to see internet or TV they may never know.

  215. god forbid that being placed on a list could tarnish the marriage of a 12-year-old who was subsequently raped in a religious ritual in front of other women including some of her sisters.

  216. I agree anon @12:15. What we should feel sorry for is women who have no sense of self worth other than to be chattel to be bartered off to some man.

  217. @Linda Lamb. You should be much MUCH more indignant at the people who put that twelve year old girl in that relationship: her father (Wayne Alan Thornton Fischer), the person who performed the marriage (Wendell Loy Nielsen), her grandfather who witnessed the ceremony (Fredrick Merril Jessop) and her church leader/predator/pedophile/husband (Warren Steed Jeffs). Then you should also be furious at those involved in the rape ceremony in the temple: Warren Steed Jeffs, Naomi Jessop Jeffs, etc. Then, you should be apalled at all the state officials in multiple states who swept all the evidence under the rug and ALLOWED (and continue to allow) this (and many more abuses) to go on. These officials include social workers (Chuck Sullivan and others), attorney generals (currently Shurtleff), state governors. Don’t forget the lawyers who have been awarded with lofty church and federal positions after lining their pockets and their families futures by vigorously defending these corrupt men and their practices. At least Warren Jeffs and his first group of Dirty Dozens are in jail. There’s quite a few more Dirty Dozens who need to follow them, not all of them FLDS either.

  218. Warren’s appeal of his sexual assault conviction has been dismissed for want of prosecution.

    http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/pdfOpinion.asp?OpinionID=20923

  219. Here’s a copy of the Austin Court of Appeals ruling on #FLDS leader #WarrenJeffs: http://scr.bi/GZy0nN @fox13now #Utah #polygamy

  220. Warren Jeffs didn’t make deadlines 4 appeal, but did send court letters that appear to be apocalyptic “revelations” http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53817838-78/jeffs-appeal-court-dismissed.html.csp?kw=3

  221. “Provide them nothing.”

    That’s working out well for Warren.

  222. I stand corrected.

    Warren’s appeal strategy appears to be “Provide them Something Ridiculous.”

  223. The defense seems to get a lot of facts wrong – probably too much intricacy for him to keep straight in terms of dates,marriages, relationships, ages,etc.
    hhg

  224. I am shocked over the abuse and mind control and cruelty to destroy families within a system that rules the lives of any women or men or children, for that matter.

  225. Texas to some of the FLDS this week:

    F*** you Wendell

    F*** you Warren

    — Fred

    EDITED BY ADMIN: Sorry Fred, we don’t allow profanity such as that here. FLDSTEXAS

  226. Warren commanded Wendell to rescind his plea deal knowing he’d be convicted by a Texas jury and have to go to jail. It occurs to me that it would thwart Warren’s power play if the jury were to recommend probation for Wendell along with a full monetary fine. It would essentially be like saying ‘neener, neener, neener, you don’t get to manipulate the system, smart a$$ Warren!’ Actually, it would put some major stress on Wendell too. After all, Wendell knows his prophet is trying to make a martyr out of him. Probation just won’t do the trick.

    I know that’s not a popular notion and you can flame me all you want. I just want to stop the madness coming from a prison cell.

  227. I wish there was some way to stop the madness.

    If the jury recommends probation I bet that this Judge would put conditions on it like Judge Walther did and Wendell will be right back where he started except he will be out of options.

  228. Maybe I’m paranoid but I think the madness is only going to get worse.

  229. Oh and I think Wendell will get plenty of prison time. At least 5 years.

  230. The letter/report from Wendell to Warren on his family clearly showed in the average day at YFZ that none of the children are getting any schooling – just religion lessons and reading a “good” book each night. While spending their day working in the fields. That should be reported/if not already to the education board that these children are going without basic education – not really even home schooling. Seems the state should make them take minimum competency exams each year to make sure they are not raising uneducated Texas citizens that the state of Texas will have to one day take care of.

  231. ok, correction – State of Texas is probably already taking care of them given the mothers are probably on welfare as single parents.

  232. Sorry, hopefully no probation for Wendell.

    I can understand the desire to thwart Warren’s madness, but I doubt a probated sentence for Wendell could make it stop.

  233. This being Texas, and given that the state introduced evidence that children were allegedly involved, I’m guessing Wendell will be given the maximum of 10 years per charge. The question is whether he will serve the sentences concurrently or consecutively.

  234. If prior juries are anything to go by the “I’m an old man, have pity on me ploy” won’t go over – didn’t help Merrill at all.

    I wonder if that is part of why they wanted the testimony of the 3 day labor in –

  235. The other question is: Who’s next?

    Friends of mine in law enforcement major crime units tell me that when investigating major crime syndicates, they usually try and bust the leaders first. Once they’ve secured convictions against the leaders, then they go after everyone else. Texas is not Utah. With Wendell the last of the FLDS initial 12 out of the way, I would not be surprised if Texas now brings charges against other FLDS further down the foodchain.

  236. In the jurisdiction in which I live, consecutive sentences come by a pretty tough burden to prove extraordinary circumstances. Concurrent is the general rule unless aggravating circumstances show it to be inappropriate over and above regular enhancements (such as abuse of a position of authority). Is Texas similar?

  237. My understanding in Texas is that the jury, and not the judge, decides the sentence. As for aggravating circumstance, I believe this is why the prosecution has introduced evidence that Wendell was a close associate of Jeffs and participated in the “marriages” of several underage brides. Also, the refusal to seek medical help for a minor undergoing a difficult labour, less child protective services become involved, is pretty damning to most juries. Lastly, I would be surprised if the “old and vulnerable” argument held much weight with the jury, given the state’s argument Wendell poses a risk to the young and vulnerable. Concern for children trump concern for the elderly when the age card is played.

  238. Consecutive sentences are not common in Texas.

    The jury will determine the sentence for each charge.

    The trial judge will determine whether the sentences run concurrent or consecutive.

    I will be surprised if Wendell’s are consecutive.

  239. Thanks for clearing that up. What is the likelihood of the state pursuing other charges against Wendell, given that he allegedly participated in plural marriages involving minors?

  240. Wendell can only get a maximum of 10 years, so if he gets 10 years on each charge it will be concurrently served. This was discussed at one of the many pretrial hearings Wendell had.

    My hope now that Wendell has been found guilty of bigamy that the other men at the ranch who married someone in Schleicher County will also be brought up on bigamy charges.

    As for Warren, he’s collecting all these tithes for his “legal fees” and he isn’t even mounting an appeal. That’s fraud and the people ought to revolt!!!

  241. P.S. My apologies to everyone for the former usage of the handle “One Mighty and Strong”. As a cult researcher who has followed the FLDS for a decade, and its detrimental effect on women and children, I had become somewhat jaded about the whole situation, and was attempting to use satire to demonstrate the absurdity of Warren’s claims.

    Having said that, I appreciate the service of this blog in informing those of us who have to deal with other FLDS strongholds. I also appreciate the State of Texas taking the lead in prosecuting FLDS-related crime.

  242. I’d say unlikely.

    Conceivably, they could charge him with performing an unlawful marriage (same charge as Merril’s) if he served as “mouth” on any of the marriages to underage girls that occurred in Texas.

    Maximum sentence would be ten years.

    Remember that the state was willing for Wendell to serve a probated sentence on the bigamy charges. I can’t see where they would be willing to expend further energy and resources pursuing any more charges against him.

    JMO

  243. A couple more questions for our Texas legal experts:

    – Texas has “three strikes and you’re out” legislation, correct?
    – Conceivably, given that Wendell was found guilty of three counts of felony bigamy, would “three strikes and you’re out” apply?

  244. It does not apply in this case.

    If it did, his punishment would be enhanced for second degree felony rather than for third degree felony.

    Just my understanding of it and I’m not an expert.

    The relevant statute is Texas Penal Code Sec. 12.42.

  245. I think Warren would be eligible for the 3 strikes rule if they go ahead and try him on the bigamy charge. Given the fact that he has failed to pursue his appeal, I have serious doubts about whether the bigamy charge will be tried.

    Wendell did act as “mouth” on the Schleicher County marriage of three 12 year old girls, Brenda Lei Fischer and then the 2 Canadian 12 year olds, Alysha and Noleta Blackmore.

  246. Yikes.

    Warren sure put Wendell’s nuts in a vise with those.

  247. Perfectly Warrenesque!

  248. Did not help W Blackmore when the Canadian 12 year olds were “married”. RMCP is probably investigating those cases.

  249. To the best of my knowledge they are investigating the double 12 year old Canadian marriage ceremony chemist. I think if I were Spencer Blackmore, I’d be finding me a house in hiding. His father is dead, but he’s still alive and kicking and available for prosecution.

  250. How many flds and former flds have warren’s picture on a dart board?? LOL

  251. Wonder how all the faithful feel knowing that all the money they have given for their profit’s defense hasn’t been used for such and he just ignored the deadlines for his appeal that could have helped get him out of jail.

    Sucks to be lied to by the one you trust doesn’t it faithful Warrenites.

  252. IMO the jury is going to give him the max given that they spent only 1.5 hours deliberating on whether he was guilty. Having spent some time on jury duty recently, we spent two full days on just a civil case that only involved $10,000. Texas sensibilities are offended and he will be given the max.

  253. I suspect you are correct, ambiguous. I think the jury gets the bigger picture that Nielsen enabled sexual child abuse in his acquiescence to Warren’s commands.

    I’m also thinking that it may be well worth the efforts to charge Nielsen and others for their parts in providing Warren with children to abuse.

    Including some of the women.

    Martyrs be damned.

  254. Never to old for jail.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-5966563.html?tag=untagged

    The victimized sisters called him “Grandpa,” their mother said at the time, adding that it “was a total shock” when police showed her sexually explicit pictures of her girls found in Sypnier’s apartment.


    Walton

  255. I would dearly love to see many flds women thrown in prison. I don’t think anyone is going to do it, though. Of course, Naomi will never be found. We know she has been incognito enough to be good at it by now.

  256. I’d bet Naomie is already incarcerated a whole ‘nother way. Gotta keep knowledgeable informants away from LE and the public, but most of all from the tithe paying faithful.

  257. I understand the whole thing about growing up and fearing everyone and everything. That many of the women didn’t have a choice. I understand all that to a point.

    They bust prostitutes and their pimps in the outside world. Many of them grew up in conditions much worse than those in the FLDS.

    I read about a man in Utah who had a couple of pot plants growing inside his home. They busted him, took his teen son away AND he hadn’t broken any other laws.

    Walton

  258. Gotta hope that Naomie is not in a place of hiding where there are adolescent girls.

    Just sayin’.

  259. I’ve tried typing questions to Matt. I don’t think it is working. Could someone ask Matt if Wendells son Jared is in the courtroom?

    Thanks
    Walton

  260. Ten years on each count.

    Concurrent as early clarified by PT.

    Alrighty, then.

  261. Wendell Loy Nielsen: Sentenced to 10 years for one count and $10,000. Same for second count. Same for third charge.

  262. Does anyone else wonder why Wendells wife Linda isn’t in the courtroom?

    Walton

  263. Well, I guess I shouldn’t have doubted the Texas jury – once they have all the facts we have they come to some pretty similar conclusions – which are bust this guy’s butt.

    I know they will not run the 10+10+10 year into 30, but maybe they will run it up to $30,000.
    hhg

  264. Upon hearing the sentences, Matt Waller reported: “Nielsen shows no reaction as he stood, he kept a pleasant demeanor.” Waller reported the same throughout the trial… even having a “slight smile.”

    No surprise. I can hardly think of another FLDS who is better at “keeping sweet” than Wendell.

  265. even having a “slight smile.”

    I think they know that they are screwed from the get-go! They either defy the profit and go to hell…or they defy the laws of Texas and go to jail. Jail seemsto be the better choice for them.

  266. A round of applause to Eric Nichols and all of those involved in the successful felony prosecutions.

  267. Kudos to Eric Nichols for his most excellent follow through, and of course all the Judges and Juries along this trail.

    Dont see the draw of Texas for pligamists, seeing how they keep getting set up as wards of the wardens.

    HA! Instead of Warren being their boss its “Warden”.

    Saw Dr Drew had a piece on the flds last night, showed a few of the pilots pics too.

    These Utah polygamists sure are getting an odd ending to their odd story.

  268. And kudos to Matt Waller for his excellent live reporting. Only thing better would have been live video; otherwise next best thing to being there.

  269. David and Leroy Nielsen were with their father in the courtroom.

  270. True, true, true- surely the evil naomi is being kept under very tight flds wraps anyway…one little comfort to my heart.. and thank God Nielsen got hard time. Hope he croaks in there.

  271. p.s.- seriously, how incredibly bereft of intelligence could Nielsen be to have opened up this mess after getting only probation! Now he can’t go see a soul in Colorado..or anywhere else.. but shucks, he can see whoever comes to the big house to see him, only when Texas says it’s ok.
    if warren ordered him to throw himself on the fire like this, he could have refused..but that would have meant excommunication, I suppose. What a bunch, whhhaaat a bunch… i am just a mortal sinner myself. but i don’t thumb my nose at my country’s laws. i sure am glad to see more plygs goin’ down. they’ve been getting away with garbage for way too long

  272. How’s that refuge-y thing workin’ out for ya now, boys?

  273. BBC releases insane documentary about Mormonism. http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/england-struck-by-mormon-panic

  274. Wendell can have visitors on Saturday or Sunday for 2 hours like every other inmate in the Texas Prison System. He will be able to submit his 10 names and those names will be checked over for felonies and the sort and then after about 4 – 6 weeks the list will be approved and viola, Wendell can have up to 3 visitors either day.

  275. Well….. now what?

    Can the Texas Rangers/ Texas FBI/ Texas CIA/ Texas LE go to Utah and Arizona and give a good swift kick in the behind to get them going?

    I know there are some folks in those agencies busy at work in the state I live in. We even get to see the reaction to the action.

    Utah and Arizona should be all rested up and ready to go. IN fact with all the “still investigating skills” that Shurtleffs office has, I would think that all that needs to be done is that some i’s are dotted and t’s crossed and they should be able to start issuing warrants. Today.

    I know it can’t be easy being a reporter. Especially in these times. Thanks Matt W.

  276. A follow up to the link ambigous provided. I bet some people will watch that video and think it’s all bunk. But then they haven’t seen what many others have seen and continue to see.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17487873

    Mitt Romney, the front runner in the race for the Republican Presidential nomination for the White House, is a devout Mormon, but his cousin, Park Romney, also in the past a committed member of the church, now denounces it as a cult.

    From the article: “Whenever the issue of Romney’s Mormonism has come to the surface, there’s been lots of condemnation across the political spectrum for raising the issue of his religion,” says Putnam.

    “I’m not saying it’s not relevant, but it’s not talked about in polite company


    When talking about the beliefs of a man who wishes to be called Mr. President – and announces to the world that he doesn’t give a rats behind about the poor, that he believes in the Curse of Cain, and all the other “magical” stories of being the one and only true Church who dumps on others who believe differently- I am thinking that maybe it’s the Mormons who aren’t being so polite. JMO

    Walton

  277. How long did the jury take to decide?

  278. They deliberated about an hour and a half.

  279. I felt that the jury would give him the entire sentence. I would think that this verdict would make others a we bit nervous. The FBI and RCMP are now in possession of the Texas records. The bountiful men should take note. The underground chatter is getting louder in regards to Rico investigation

  280. It was posted earlier about Dr. Drew’s report on FLDS with story of amphitheater of the absurd. Appears that ole Warren is planning an escape, hope the warden in Palestine was watching.

    http://drdrew.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/29/former-warren-jeffs-lieutenant-guilty-of-bigamy/?hpt=dr_bn4

  281. Here’s more from the SLTrib related to the CNN Dr.Drew story:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53820581-191/appeal-amphitheater-done-floor.html.csp

  282. Why did Warren et al build their Texas compound? Criminals almost always believe they will get away with their crime. Otherwise, they would not risk getting caught.

    FLDS leadership had been getting away with their actions for so long in Utah and Arizona, why would they believe Texas would be any different?

  283. The other question to consider when wondering why FLDS leadership stick by Warren Jeffs, despite the shenanigans committed by the “prophet” and the futility of fighting Texas justice: How are Warren Jeff’s actions as prophet any different than those of Joseph Smith, Jr? If one believes sincerely that Joseph Smith, Jr. was a prophet of his god, then Warren Jeffs follows much more closely in the footsteps of Smith than does LDS prophet Thomas Monson.

  284. I miss seeing Deputy George and Doran. I miss seeing the Texas Rangers and having that feeling that maybe just maybe everything will be alright.


    I don’t know why they keep pushing this ampitheater stuff. It’s a fishbowl.

    All the stuff Warren is talking about is stuff the LDS Church has been talking about. Things the LDS Church has been working on and building for years.

    Maybe they should let Warren out of his hole for a time. Maybe the things he has to say has something to do with the LDS Church and their plans on meeting in Zion.

    There is an ampitheater near St. George I think. Hinckley spoke there.

    Maybe the reason that Shurtleff and crew went after the FLDS so much is because Warren wouldn’t pay his 10% straight up to the LDS.

    It’s a mess. A big stupid mess and no one is cleaning it up.

    Utah and Arizona are blowing as much hot air as Warren.

    The good guys went home. 😦
    Walton

  285. Not FLDS related, but Utah law enforcement related. Washington State police are flabbergasted that evidence found in the Susan Powell case did not result in the arrest of her husband Josh Powell. During a TV interview, a detective, sounding almost distraught, said that Utah police had done their job collecting evidence, including Susan’s blood found in the house, but he couldn’t understand why Utah prosecutors had done nothing with it, he said he couldn’t understand “the disconnect,” if the evidence found in Utah had been found in Washington Josh Powell would have been arrested, which means, so sadly, that he would not have then been able to murder her two little boys too.

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Docs-Susan-Powells-blood-found-near-couch-at-her-house-145232305.html

  286. Canada: RCMP renews polygamy investigation into Bountiful http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/rcmp-renews-polygamy-investigation-into-bountiful/article2387862/

  287. 4-2008

    11-2009 — Raymond Jessop — Convicted at trial. 10 years.

    12-2009 — Allen Keate — Convicted at trial. 33 years.

    1-2010 — Michael Emack — No contest plea. 7 years.

    3-2010 — Leroy Jessop — Convicted at trial. 75 years.

    4-2010 — Lehi B. Jeffs — No contest plea. 8 years.

    6-2010 — Keith Dutson, Jr. Convicted at trial. 6 years.

    6-2010 — Abram Harker Jeffs — Convicted at trial. 17 years.

    9-2011 — Warren Steed Jeffs — Convicted at trial. Life +20 years.

    11-2011 — Leroy Johnson Steed — No contest plea. 7 years.

    11-2011 — Merril Jessop — Convicted at trial. 10 years.

    3-2012 — Wendell Nielsen — Convicted at trial. 10 years.

  288. 11 out of 12, not bad! Next up, Canada.

  289. And so far nothing has been done with #12, but it was moved to County Court.

  290. Does anyone have any idea as to whose bigamy trial is next, if there is one?

  291. Warren’s is the only one set at the moment. Raymond, Leroy and Abram all have them pending with no date set.

    I think there is a pretrial for Warren that is May 21 or something like that.

  292. Thanks PT!

    *goes back to lurk mode*

  293. Any idea when the next legal move in the UEP is and bets on the Utah Supreme Court possible direction?

  294. Newest Shield and Refuge show (on youtube+ on S+R website) Doris Hanson mentions SOME of Wendell Neilsen’s “marriages”… On April 3, 2005 he hitched up with 3 dames.. on April 17, 2005, another 3…and on May 5, 2005, he loaded up with 4 more…!! Oh yes, this is such a pure and wonderful religion. Really shows just how much these people value all the good stuff, doesn’t it?- you know, purity, faithfulness, decency, value of the individual…etc,etc… RRRRIGHT???? —gets ya right here!! (fist gently tapping sternum area—due to HEARTBURN!!!)

  295. I was looking at Wendell’s wives, and he did actually marry a girl who didn’t turn 17 until a month after their wedding. She was a daughter of Warren and Annette. His first Mother/daughter pair were Linda Jeffs and her daughter Marie Mariah Musser. MMM had to use both names because Wendell already had a wife named Marie Musser.

    10 of his wives had the maiden name of Jeffs.

    The May 5, 2005 marriage was loading up on previous wives of LeRoy Steed Jeffs. This grouping included Sally who brought along her bevy of girls who became the underage brides of Jackson, Raymond and Leroy Jessop. Older daughter Marilyn (Unibrow) was already a bride of Wendell.

  296. hhg: The Utah supreme court will probably wait several months to a year before they issue their ruling on the UEP. IMO, they have the same foot dragging and timidity that characterize many of the Utah LE and judicial entities. Some people thought that when the USC applied larches in their earlier UEP ruling it would end any chance for an appeal by the flds. However, the USC did not say their ruling was final which left the door open for an appeal to the 10th circuit. The whole thing could have been settled in their first ruling.

  297. My long-term story on Utah’s home-school laws and the FLDS: Law stays out of polygamous sect’s at-home education http://shar.es/pToBq

  298. Thanks for the details, PT. Such shameful trash- a woman and her own daughter having very same marital partner. (one of things clearly proscribed in Leviticus as immoral at all times.) With these realities, flds cannot seriously ever say they are Christian. This is the kind of thing the general public has not understood about flds. Otherwise many who have commented on coverage of flds would not have made mistake of thinking they are a Christian group.
    Strong proof these people aren’t really interested in Jesus. They can’t even abide by the simplest and most obvious standards of decency and family structure. With the possible exception of men apparently NOT marrying their own biological daughters. But we have heard of plenty marrying their own stepdaughters along with the girls’ mothers, especially with all the re-assignments.
    Here we are, watching super-modest dresses, uniform hairstyles, and “you’ll go to he++ if you ever cut your hair,” etc…. even while many of these “righteous” women are trading a guy with their own sisters and mothers and aunts. They can keep their studied outward innocence and modesty. God sees hearts.

  299. Actually, I can think of at least one fundamentalist group where the biological father DID have children with his own daughters.

  300. BBC releases insane documentary about Mormonism. http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/england-struck-by-mormon-panic

    ambiguous said this on March 30, 2012 at 3:27 PM

    ambiguous do YOU see the things that I see? does anyone else?

    jokes set aside please.

    Walton

  301. Yes, I remember someone reporting on a wacko who insisted on having a “marriage” with his very own biological daughter. I though it was some tiny group which started with one small family dominated by a perv “dad” and didn’t get very far. I forget now who that was. Seems like cops found he “married” his 11 year old daughter and a stepdaughter of about same age. What also annoys me is how flds reports keep saying girls as young as 12 were being married. Actually there have been reports of a couple girls age 9 I think but since that wasn’t at the ranch, or as recent, it didn’t get media coverage. Seems warren at least wanted girls who had had a period.

    I recall lots of women from these groups tell how they were often asked ” are you getting your period yet?” Sarah Hammon’s father barely knew who she was, definitely didn’t know which mother she had, often asked her if she got her period, and then was actually trying to molest her basically till his death. (I keep wondering if the guy who has been on Centennial Park coverage with his women and kids (Ariel Hammon?)is a relative or even a brother of Sarah’s. She had over 70 siblings because Marion Hammon, her dad, a respected flds patriarch who would at times take the flds pulpit, had 17 women.
    Some of these guys, like Marion H, as they aged were reported to “mistake” their daughters for their “wives.” Then we heard from the Mackert women several times, how their father “prepared them” for marriage. And he was the one on Life magazine cover in 1953 with Short Creek raid. He was molesting one of his daughters by age 3. And he had 4 women, one of whom didn’t have to abide by strict dress or hair code and did what she wanted. These groups are full of sex crime cases and strange double standards.
    Anyway, one could go on and on about the moral garbage that has been unearthed with these cults. I have heard many times that Kingstons teach close relative intermarriage because they think thye are preserving Christ’s bloodline. Then that suicide pact a year of so ago came to attention of some police and public ,concerning some Kingston young adults and teens, but I haven’t heard anything about it lately, if it was averted, etc. Doris Hansen mentioned it on her show- she grew up in Kingston group- she was promised to a plyg dude right after her birth. All her childhood and teen years she was reminded who she was going to “marry”- she decided to flee by time she was 18 bc she knew the “marriage” was imminent to the guy, who now had ten wives and oodles of kids. Yep, I have been following the debauchery for several years. I have spoken to Doris Hansen several times on phone, and a couple others who got out of flds before warren became top dog

  302. Live chat at the Trib re: Home-schooling and polygamous sect kids

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home3/53826710-203/com-chat-550-636.html.csp

    I am going to try and ask questions there but it didn’t work for me at Matt W’s place.

    A LOT of things are blamed on Warren. (Don’t get me wrong, Warren did a LOT of things that were bad) But prior to Warren, supposedly the kids were being taught and the parents all came from a background of going to school, being taught at home etc.

    If that were truly the case, why would well educated people stop teaching their children?

    The system is broke for sure but the problem isn’t/wasn’t Warren. The problem is that on a whim parents stopped being parents. Protecters stopped being protecters. LE stopped enforcing the law all within a group or groups of people who knew better.

    Warren didn’t march in with a magic wand and all of a sudden take over. The roads were paved by those before him and well before Rulon ever took over. They didn’t just jump because Warren told them so. They were broken before Warren stepped up. That is why he so easily jumped into place. The mind F started LONG LONG ago.


    In many domestic Violence cases, often times the abused will end up in yet another abusive relationship. Sometimes the statement is made that they always attract the “bad ones”. Sometimes that happens. But most often the abused gravitate themselves to those that abuse.


    I read smitholm’s post and it makes me ill to think that he was treated in such a way. His loss of education and a childhood can only be blamed in parts on Warren. His mother grew up in a time that they were all going to school. His father went to school.
    HIs parents failed him.
    Utah/Arizona failed all of them.
    The people of Utah/Arizona failed.
    The people of Utah and Arizona continue to fail ALL when they sit silent or make excuses for such things.

    I can’t help smitholm. I wish I could. Is there anyone out there that can reach out to him? please?


    Are they any better off at CPark? No. They watched in silence to the things going on with those in the FLDS. Watch the videos of Ariel Hammon. Watch the videos of the good doctor who helps those with “home births” in the community. The good Doctor who must ask the “leader” exactly what it is that they want taught before she starts.


    Walton

  303. Are you saying the Centennial Park people aren’t well educated, Walton?

  304. Polygamy stories out of Canada:

    http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1154294–rcmp-investigating-polygamy-allegations-in-bountiful-b-c-again

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53802060-191/error-156-6901-canada.html.csp

    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/03/26/19551876.html

  305. Stories in the news regarding Canada’s investigation into polygamy

    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/03/26/19551876.html

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53802060-191/error-156-6901-canada.html.csp

    http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1154294–rcmp-investigating-polygamy-allegations-in-bountiful-b-c-again

  306. Walton, as stated so many times “you can’t fix stupid”,Walton don’t try to figure out the FLDS, you can’t, it’s a waste of time trying to, nobody can figure them out ,I know I have relatives who are still FLDS & who still think Warren’s being framed & wronged ” YOU CAN’T FIX STUPID ” ….other-ANON

  307. Anybody hearing any rumblings about an April conference?

    Interesting statement at yesterday’s mainstream conference that not all statements made by past leaders can be taken as church doctrine.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53833402-78/church-mormon-apostle-lds.html.csp

  308. 😦 I’ve seen the ” can’t fix stupid” term being used a lot.

    I am not trying to fix the FLDS.

    I am trying to understand and hopefully help fix “the stupid ones with the education who do nothing and continue to watch and make excuses for those in these position”.

    Being FLDS was only part of the problem. The Kingstons, Allreds, CParkers and all the other once removed stem from the same problem. They “co-exist” inside a cave that festers and feeds the fear. Feeds the issues. Pour salt on a wound.

    We’ve all seen some of the things SmithHolm has written and taped. He is a young man who has some major issues and he is “hurting”. Not just with physical pain but he is hurting inside. Really hurting. I am almost positive that he has seen the Hope. org., the safety net groups. They can’t help him nor can they really help anyone inside if they too are inside the bubble with the big problem.

    They are using bandaids when surgery is required.

    Those folks that did that fact finding thing in Canada. They know. I know they know. And there are others out that know.

    I don’t have what it takes. But they do. They can help.

    Walton

  309. Walton, nothing can be done for those who won’t open their eyes and see what is happening. This is a perfect description of the Warrenites. Sure the parents probably got an education, but once Warren said “no more”, they pulled their kids out of school and are just teaching them priesthood history. If tomorrow Warren woke up in his jail cell and said “let’s send all the kids back to public school”, all of the parents would be in line at the local school ready to enroll all of their little darlings.

    It’s as simple as Warren issues all the rules and the Warrenites just blindly follow.

  310. There’s hope though. Some are getting out. The real info is trickling in.

  311. PT, Amen to what you just wrote, the Warrenites JUST FOLLOW BLINDLY !! other-Anon

  312. ProudTexan- at what level does a person just forsake all common sense and family and follows a “jack in the box”?

    They were already at the ultimate level of “feeling low” and were alread “brainwashed per se” before Warren jumped up. That’s why they followed. They knew nothing else. Warren was only part of the problem.

    The FLDS that are remaining have broken no laws. At least that’s how it looks. No one else has been arrested. No warrants out. Nothing being done on the local level or Federal level. You’ve got “educated officials” standing in a snow globe singing “we’re still investigating songs” and people keep turning the key to hear it play over and over.

    Wackadoos. They don’t even try to shake the snow globe to see if they could get a different picture OR a different tune. They just keep playing it over and over. More wackadoo.

    In Utah and Arizona, Since Warrens arrest and the “raid” what we’ve seen at best is mind games being played by many different ones on all levels. AND yet NO arrests. People with their hands stretched out for money and land. Mind games pushing one to another.

    Walton

  313. Anybody hearing any rumblings about an April conference?

    Interesting statement at yesterday’s mainstream conference that not all statements made by past leaders can be taken as church doctrine.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53833402-78/church-mormon-apostle-lds.html.csp

    Third Cousin said this on April 2, 2012 at 3:44 PM

    Interpretation.

    Ask 5 people what they think was being said and I bet you get 5 different answers.

    Walton

  314. Probably right, Walton.

  315. I have never believed that LDS prophets and apostles were infaiible and always correct. Also have never believed that everything said by a former prophet or apostle is correct. The statement alluded to at the recent LDS general conference is nothing new to me; have heard that before and truly believe it.

  316. Every day each member of the FLDS, CP, Kingston, or Allred group who are “married” to more than one woman are breaking the law. Why isn’t something being done about it? I have no clue, but don’t try to tell me that those who remain aren’t breaking any law. Lyle is a lawbreaker in Utah for marrying an underage girl. There are more just like him, but the UT AG doesn’t have enough balls to step up to the plate and get a conviction, so they just go on their merry way.

  317. I agree with you Pt, and I do not understand why the utah LE people do not do more. The UT AG said he would not prosecute for polygamy, but, as you point out, there are other things they could prosecute for. Underage marriage, child abandonment (lost boys), possible welfare fraud, and on and on.

  318. My guess? The media will start looking into Utah, the FLDS, WSJ, polygamy, their historical connection to the LDS, all these other issues once Romney officially gains the Republican nomination. The question being… does American really want a GOP in the White House that is run like the GOP in Utah?

  319. More on custody dispute of Wallace Jeffs (ex’d) vs. wife and FLDS

    http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20120402/NEWS01/120402011/Child-custody-case-involving-Warren-Jeffs-brother-denied-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

  320. The reason Utah hasn’t doe more and never will in the near future is because there are simply too many people and layers involved. Without further “study” on the subject I would make a wild guess that half the population of Utah at least could be in trouble if things were really looked at as they potentially could be, regarding enforcement of laws. I say this because there are large businesses which have been running for decades that are plyg owned and operated. There are people all over the west doing business with plyg groups and the moeny flows all day every day. It will never be gotten hold of. lds main offices themselves are heavily funded by people who are not only totally involved with efficient money-making enterprises, but who probably cannot understand all the hullaballoo about polygamy because they know it is a huge part of mormon history and a huge part of building the state of Utah. There are polygamist descendents and sympathisers throughout the government out there. There will never be an end to any of this. The biggest hope is for one person or perhaps one family at a time abandoning polygamy. That’s it. Also, for these groups to simply implode and never rise again due to their own evils. But as long as the public cannot get a hnadle on who they are really hiring with contracts all over the west, the moeny will flow bigtime and this will never end.

    The other big factor as I see it is the high number females out there who are breeding within these cults. As long as you have females remaining in these cults who cannot wake up from this type of ingrained belief, it will survive. They breed fast since they believe it is God ordering them to, and that just keeps adding to the legal entanglements and expense of trying to help. They steadfastly equate everything they have been taught to do with salvation and eternity, so they can’t stop themselves. These people have to figure things out themselves. They have to get enough of the abuse and take the risks needed to report abuses and also to risk the group-leaving. Even some of the most bright that have left have told how long it took them to realize the lies of their culture. Carolyn Jessop was in her thirties before she figured out more of reality beyond flds. Only reason she did was that her handicapped son had gotten help from kind non-flds doctors, and she had close family ready to connect with her escape plan. She wasn’t able to pull it off for a long time after she first began to plan leaving. I aslo abslutely believe that American society is so full of problems and compromises that it really doesn’t look that great to these folks or more of them would have gotten out.

    I know the way my own life has been for a long time, I feel like a stranger in my own nation much of the time now. I do not agree with much that takes place around me, I believe we have fallen far morally, our public education system is not good at all compared to what it really could be, and there is practically a police state in some parts of the US now due to so many arrests. There’s too much I want to say, I have a lot of hurt going on in my own family, and we live far from flds area. There is heartache all over the US, a very messed-up economy from which millions have been suffering for years now. There is fraud, hypocrisy, all kinds of deceit and compromise going on at all levels. Polygamy issues are but a tiny issue in this nation compared to the whole picture. Following it has mostly been a diversion for me, really, from the pain of ordinary living that people like me and many others endure all over the US.

  321. I hear ya mom. Another one of the “layers” of the problem is that those of us from Utah, Arizona, and Idaho have the added baggage of living each day with the fact that our ancestors were polygamists, whether it was way back in the day or more recently. Romney included. This causes extreme discomfort to many of us regardless of what we know about right and wrong. Nobody around here wants to touch the subject.

    Anybody notice there has been not one further word on our Horseshoe Bend polygamist? Even after the plural wife legally changed her name. No one will touch it, and an Idaho Statesman comment on the initial article got trash-canned just for inquiring as to which Ward he was in. Makes me livid.

    Plummeting off soap box.

  322. Horeshoe Bend polygamist? Please explain.

  323. Oooops, I get it now. Sorry.

  324. Dallas FW getting hit with tornados this hour.

    Stay safe! Dont let your semi truck fly through the air!

  325. Today is the 4th anniversary of the YFZ rescue. Those children would be so much better off if the crying momma pastel parade hadn’t succeeded in getting them returned home.

  326. Yikes Anon. Here is the CBS 48 Hours report on it done 8 weeks later.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4132728n

  327. I hear ya mom. Another one of the “layers” of the problem is that those of us from Utah, Arizona, and Idaho have the added baggage of living each day with the fact that our ancestors were polygamists, whether it was way back in the day or more recently. Romney included. This causes extreme discomfort to many of us regardless of what we know about right and wrong. Nobody around here wants to touch the subject.

    =======================
    Grandma was 15 when she married grandpa. Makes it hard to speak out against underaged marriages.

  328. I hope none of the regulars here were in the path of the tornadoes that went through Texas.

  329. Here’s a report on how much it cost Texas to put the FLDS leadership in the prison system.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865553412/45M-spent-on-FLDS-prosecution-from-Texas-raid-4-years-ago.html

    Guess Utah & nArizoa are not willing to spend the money to solve this problem.

    IMO the state of Texas needs to bill both Utah & Arizona for helping clean up their little problem.

  330. Betty, Warren will take credit for it ….

  331. Anon you’re right ole Warren will and has. Here’s the latest revelation from the SLTrib website:

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1LG1w31trK_MGwxNnlNVi1TRFdmaFdxV1kxcnRqUQ/edit?pli=1

    Warren didn’t waste any time when he got his phone privileges back. IMO they are goofy as ever.

  332. Here’s more from the SLTrib on subject of Warren’s latest fable of woe:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53849524-185/revelations-storms-wind-america.html.csp

  333. At least Warren believes in Global Warming when commanding people to move to higher ground. Of course he will want to take credit for it, though.

  334. http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/apnewsbreak-texas-prosecutors-spent-45m-convicting-jeffs-polygamist-followers-since-raid/2012/04/03/gIQAVSLStS_story.html

    How much money was spent on convicting WSJ

  335. Doesn’t matter kould, Texas spent what was needed and got the job done. That’s all that matters.

  336. And Shurtleff disputes spending $5 million for the mess he intentionally made over enforcing the law in Hildale/Colorado City.

    Sure is a contrast isn’t it?

  337. After scanning the latest ‘revelation’, all I can say is Holy Crap!

  338. I’m confused. Isn’t it flds dogma that the judgment will include wiping out all the evildoers (everybody except non-apostate flds)? Why would JC be warning the evildoers through his incarcerated Mouthpiece to “plan a way to survive all my diseasing and earth-shaking way holy cleansing judgment…”.

    Or perhaps it’s just the cat playing with the mouse.

  339. What is the significance of 7:18 am on April 6th?

  340. Guess we all better lay in our year’s supply food storage.

    That reminds me that when grandma died we had to dispose of about three years’ worth of weevil infested spoiled grain and ancient home canned food. She was planning to save all the neighbors during the Last Days.

  341. Chose the lesser of two weevils!!!
    hhg
    (from “Master and Commander”)

  342. I had to look that one up HHG – that’s funny.

  343. Those ‘revelations’ are written by a deranged human. The convoluted wording, the message and all those important addressees are meant to impress the faithful for the purpose of keeping them in line with his agenda. It doesn’t matter if it makes any sense to us. The convoluted wording only makes sense to followers. It keeps encouraging them that the prophet is still powerful whether he’s in prison, hiding on the run, or in their midst.

    There’s simply no point in trying to read any importance into any of it, or analyze it unless that’s the way you want to spend your time.

    Whatever.

  344. Too bad Warren didnt say they would spend millions on a junk yard in the boonies and then get his nasty posse thrown in prison, cuz thats what he got.

  345. Ode to Wendell Neilsen

    Joining the party!

    Say hi to Warren in the Cell Kingdom!

  346. This study says that the older the father, the more likely a child will have autism.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Autism/family-inherited-gene-mutations-linked-autism/story?id=16071503#.T3ypWauPnC8

  347. I practically fall over when reminded of how plygs seem to think putting up some jars of fruit is needed if God is really gonna be involved in some big event of delivering them and chastening everything and everyone else in some super-catastophe. They think He’s gonna do everybody else in on planet earth, miraculously spare only plygs, but He cannot provide for their basic nutrition for awhile? I guess there are indeed some Bible situations where He did order a relatively few bunch of humans to prepare for a catastrophe that He was going to send, come to think of it. But He didn’t order people to disregard His word, and plygs do that. They disregard many major Old and New Testament teachings that ARE clear.

    He never, not one time, issued an order or ordination for men to marry multiple times, nor did He in either testament of Bible order females to be part of polygamy in any way. He never ordered this lifestyle, and to insist that He did is outright lying, Joesph Smith and Brigham Young-style. Lying with a disgraceful agenda- to force females to accept the licentiousness of certain males. That’s all this type of “religion” springs from- lock, stock, and barrel. Certainly it was practiced, unfortunately even by some of Old Testament’s greatest characters, but there is not one command from Jehovah in Old Testament, or from Jesus in New Testament, for people to have a lopsided gender situation with marital partners. Old and New Testaments absolutely do in fact have a number of verses where God clearly prefers exclusive monogamy for humans, and the plygs seem to ignore all of those passages, and they browbeat their young from babyhood with lies about these things. Joseph Smith made up absolute lies and unfortunately here we are- people are still falling for this nonsense because they refuse to read the entire Bible. (For example, the Horseshoe bend thing? I believe the second woman in the situation wrote a letter to her father and loved ones saying”The Bible clearly teaches” and then she went on to describe plural marriage as what the Bible teaches. NOPE- sorry, sister, your new already-married male companion is the one clearly teaching you that, making you think that, twisting things from whatever book , but the Bible doesn’t teach that, clearly or unclearly- it DOESN’T teach it, it doesn’t command it. It mentions it, but that is not the same as God pronouncing a teaching or commandment. God never ordered multiple wifery in either Testament, so these ladies that buy this idea are giving somebody else the control of their minds- but they aren’t bothering to read the entire Bible, sorry, they just aren’t. And if the men involved say they are, then they are disregarding important Bible passages, and are somehow discouraging women from doing their own Bible reading. This is just part of the reason I cannot view plygs as Christians. They are Joseph Smithian and warren jeffs-ians and what-not-ians, but they are NOT Christians, and they are NOT Bible respecting.
    Canning a bunch of fruit as if He’s gonna lift them up into the sky with all their fruit jars and bags of grain? Once again, the plyg god is too small. He is Joseph Smith, or warren jeffs, but he is in all certainty not Jesus Christ.
    I personally do believe the Bible, yes, I know it has hard things in it. But knowing it all the way through and knowing it in context, one finds the correct answers. I guess lots of people don’t respect it these days- I can’t force them to. But knowing the Bible as well as I do is one of reasons I have tried to follow the plyg stories for many years now- and why I give modestly to stuff like Shield and Refuge- because I think the plygs pick out a few Bible things, twist them, and ignore huge important passages in order to practice cruel and immoral things. They were taught to do this by people like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and warren jeffs. (Does warren even ever lift up the Bible in anything he has ever said or written? I think he has pretty much pulled all attention to himself and his own twisting and cherry-picking, and his own poor quality thinking and writing, which is all centered on his own desires. I regard plyg leaders as Bible trashers, and they do whatever they can to keep their slaves blind.

  348. On youtube- new interview posted on RebeccaKimbel channel, with Irene Spencer. Abt 18 minutes long, Irene makes some strong statements which help show why and how females are kept in plyg groups

  349. This just in…
    ””

    Osama Bin Laden was living with 3 wives in one compound, and never left the house for 5 years.

    It is now believed that he called the US Navy Seals himself.

  350. Anybody know which prison Wendell was put in ? other-Anon

  351. Does anyone have any information on Keith Dutson Sr.? He has applied for a job with my company here in Colorado. I’ve found some information, but I don’t have anything concrete to take to my board.

  352. Edited by FLDS TEXAS to add the picture.

    Keith Dutson Sr is a polygamist who married a girl when she was 16. The reason he wasn’t charged in Texas is that the marriage took place in Hildale. If you hire him to work for you, anything you pay him will go to support Warren and his thugs.

  353. this came up on a google search for him. It says Keith W Dutson Sr is a board member for the trust that appears to hold YFZ property:

    http://www.childbrides.org/Texas_Declaration_of_Trust_of_the_Texas_Stake_of_Zion_12-31-2008.pdf

  354. April 6th 7:18 a.m. – Walton took the rest of the trash out.

    Hey do you guys think they really spent 20 mil to carry out this whole thing?
    I don’t. I want to see the receipts. 🙂 All of them.

    Did you guys know that when other “organized crime” clans get busted the govt. confiscates property, monies, cars AND throw ALL those that were found to have broken the laws into jail and or fine them?

    I think there was one or two times ol Willie Nelson had some issues with pot and some major issues with the tax man.


    Did ya see the latest concerning Tom Horne in Az.? imo funny thing is 8 years ago I would have read that story and believed it. Today, I read stories like that and think Tom Horne won’t play their stupid games and they throw trash to the wind to see if it sticks.
    –But I’ve yet to read about the FBI digging into anything with Shurtleff/the FLDS/the Kingstons/the Allreds –etc.
    —-
    Did you folks know that the LDS have had their fair share of doom and gloom revelations? Hinckley spoke a couple of times about the 7 years of plenty and 7 years of ??
    There is plenty of examples to compare Warrens with the LDS
    Get your house in order and prepare
    Pack your bags

    Walton

  355. Here is President Hinckley talking about the 7 years of plenty and 7 years of famine. http://youtu.be/BNX5klOT1p0

    Interpretation.

    I liked President Hinckley. It was a sad day when he died. I think he was actually working on things that would have been good for their Church. An openess and a better understanding. A CHANGE.

    He had a way of speaking and telling a story that the new guy does not. imo

    I’ll never ever understand why a Church (any Church) is so focused on purchasing so much property and filling it with Gold instead of putting the soul focus on those who believe and open the doors for those who seek.
    Walton

  356. on mormon hair poof blog today there is another photo of jenny pipkin, who was a witness for warren jeffs’ defense with the elissa wall trial I think. Her story of young marriage (not forced, but requested by her)- and of warren just “letting” her marry who she said she wanted to marry, only means one thing to me- jenny pipkin was not in the crosshairs of warren for his harem, or that of another flds leader, that’s all. My guess is she was known not to have a clever or spirited enough personality to worry about, as with people like Carolyn Jessop, Elissa Wall, etc. The girls who aren’t targeted for forced marriage in some way due to what family they are from, or for looks, brains, whatever- i think it doesn’t matter to flds big boys too much what they do- besides, it gave warren a gal who could say flds doesn’t force girls to do anything, for future reference.
    Jenny P isn’t a bad lookin girl, she just could have used some acne treatment, but i think she just wasn’t warren’s type, or she wouldn’t have been “allowed” all the stuff she asked for and got. She had a compliant mind which warren could tell wouldn’t be a problem in his future, so he let her do what she wanted, being the very well -conditioned flds girl she was and prob still very much is. I will never believe she had a “typical” flds experience. What’s amazing to me is she said after 5 kids she wanted a break from sex so warren gave her a release from her husband. Yeah, right– her story just doesn’t add up to waht we’ve all heard time and again from flds gals that got out. There’s a reason warren was easy on jenny p. we just don’t know exactly what it is- maybe he was already so aware he might need defenders later that he figured she’d be a good pick to groom for same. He’s had other defenders that he didn’t try to use in court. (i.e. poor Ruth of the quilts …) I’m sure jenny p was just another warren chess piece, treated without usual force and cruel games for some reason. She just didn’t matter enough to control brutally. Plus she didn’t require it. She obviously was programmed very well by 17.

  357. More dollars and what cents

    http://wkcurrent.com/tax-dollars-help-flds-lifestyle-p1539-71.htm

    Polygamy cost money. Lots of money.

    What isn’t mentioned in articles like these is the money that is spent to make it look like officals are doing something when they aren’t.

    While Utah and Arizona seem to be taking that stand – maybe they should chip in on that 20 million dollar bill. And maybe they should shoulder the expense that the Federal tax-payers have been paying. jmo


    mom – if you look back …Willie said he never saw the abuses that many saw. Even though, he himself caused some of the problems. Some things are tough to see when a person has their eyes closed per se.
    Walton

  358. http://fox13now.com/2012/04/06/warren-jeffs-issues-new-revelation-gets-prison-phone-privileges-back/

    Warren didn’t get his phone privileges back until today.

  359. The fact that there isn’t an English major alive who can diagram any of the sentences in Warren’s revelations is proof that God speaks to Warren and is mightier than the learned men of the world.

  360. I decided to see what babelfish would do with his revelation. Here is the header converted to Spanish, then German, then back to English. You be the judge. Usually, babelfish completely scrambles things up when you do that. In this case, is it more intelligible?

    Jesus Christ, Holy Redeemer, now I will explain how to my saints send revealing, show love loyalty to his Holy Lord, Jesucristo, all peoples of the world your now live, an order of Santo to my birthday Holy for the month of April, on the sixth day of the month; My Santo revealed effort, prepare the order of Santa, judgments of God’s Holy power test full power very soon, soon it the Holy order of the ignition order complete in the form of poured forward all countries of the world. Now will the Saints; You will hear my message of love revealed how soon regret Holy pure, Holy, to survive the judgments of God, Saints, not completely cleaning out the mandate of all countries comes.

  361. Favorite phrase: “Holy order of the ignition.” 😀

  362. I think “ignition” came from “Power on”.

  363. Warren Jeffs, as posted earlier on the blog, got his phone privileges back. The San Angelo paper tried to get prison officials to tell them who was on Warren’s list of people he could call,but they wouldn’t say. The prison officials also would not say anything about specifics or content of calls. But at least the reported had the guts to ask.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2012/apr/06/jeffs-free-to-phone-again/

  364. Today is the day

  365. The prison officials also would not say anything about specifics or content of calls. But at least the reported had the guts to ask.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2012/apr/06/jeffs-free-to-phone-again/

    A Texan said this on April 6, 2012 at 7:51 PM

    🙂 I was just thinking back to the early days of reporters/journalism the fun days of reading the news. Thru out this whole thing with the raid and the trials I saw that a few from Utah and Arizona that made the trip over.

    How about a small team from Texas making some appointments and a plan to do some investigative reporting from Utah?

    There should be some type of slush fund or grant monies for journalistic apprentice that might be made available thru some organization.

    It wouldn’t be a task for those that are timid or take no for an answer. It would be a job that would require tenny runners and a strong backbone and a very very curious mind. someone with the “gift”. someone who knows BS when they hear it and see it.

    AND.. there should be a couple of Texas Rangers that could tag along to do some type of “training” thing.

    If anyone does this let me know. I’ve got a few questions and a couple of things I want you to check out.

    🙂

    Walton

  366. “prepare the order of Santa”

    Now, I’m down with that one.

    “He’s making a list, checking it twice”

  367. Geepers, I hate ta think what babelfish would do to my own ramblings… I mean, i like to think people can ate least pretty easily decipher what I verbosely chrun out….
    now, let me see, I am gonna go back holy outside way where my two half-grown order of blessed ducklings are, in their way cage holy in the holy yard way, where grass way-holy is growing too long because power and me got no get-up-and-go, don’t feel revelation like pushing mower, which has power, but no love, it ain’t holy,and it ain’t sanctified. I mean, Santa-fied. ‘Cause if it way was, it would be a holy way rider-mower for my people. well, for just me, that is, your servant mom. Saints alive! Now my people will be able to figure out I am gonna suffer whirlwind judgments way before my birthday, which isn’t until fall, so i better deal with the full power and mow some holy swaths in the green before Jesus really does return. ‘Cause sometimes my yard looks sorta like “til kingdom come”–if y’all know what i mean. Amen.

  368. Just so you know, this is what Babelfish did to your revelation about mowing a lawn. Don’t know if it is true, but I heard an anecdote about a translating program translating “the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing” to “the meat is rotten, but the vodka is good.”

    Well, let me see, I return Santa foreign way where my order is two Mitad Crecida of blessed Anadones, in his cage in the Holy way of the Holy way to the courtyard, where the manera Santa too long grow grass, because the energy and I get to no top and go not feel get, revelation as push lawnmowers, the energy of hatnur Ningún love, is not sacred and not Holiness. I mean, Santa-fied. Cause if so, from the ‘ a Holy Jinete Cortacéspedes would be the way to my people. Well, for me just, i.e., his mother from storage. Saints alive! My people can now imagine that I am trying the whirlwind way undergo before my birthday is not until fall, so I best with powers and some Holy Tedder green harvest, before, that Jesus really is. The cause of the “meinem garden sorta sometimes looks”to Kingdom Come”– If the Y’ all know what I mean. Amen.

  369. April 6 has come and gone. Nothing happened in my part of the country. Is everyone else OK? There was no mass repenting going on either.

  370. Cement- danke shoen!! –and feliz navidad, too! (Hysterical!)

  371. BARLOW, LENORA ALLRED
    Birth Date: 10/09/72
    Address : 125 W APPLE AVE, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    22:00:00 04/06/12 Other Agency MCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-6-106(2)Civ. DV-CRIM MISCHIEF-LESS BM OUT [No Payments Made]

  372. I personally got really confused and hung up on the time of 7:18AM. I am living now on Eastern time. Jesus was born in Jerusalem which is at least a day ahead. Arizona has that weird time zone where they don’t acknowledge day light savings time. Utah is on mountain time. But, YFZ and Warren would be on central daylight savings time. So when was it that I was suppose to pray and repent?

  373. So is Lenora Allred Barlow in or out?

    Man you need a scorecard to keep up with the players.

  374. I need a score card for sure. I can’t believe this abuse hasn’t been stopped or at least slowed down… Business as usual in Hildale, Az. from what I gather. Does anyone know if the Dairy is open again? Are outsiders still allowed to purchase items? At least no-one is having sex and making more babies as per “Jeff’s New Rules.” That is a good thing, right?

  375. It’s open and reluctantly serving outsiders overpriced, golf ball sized scoops of ice cream. You could also get an $80 gallon of PA maple syrup, if you were so inclined.

  376. And is squeaky cheese available?

  377. The squeaky cheese will be available in a couple weeks. The machine broke.

  378. if ya ask me, so many flds practices are pretty cheesy, concept of flds dairy store is “classic” imo.. ain’t it neat how they don’t want customers who aren’t flds to buy the stuff. I wouldn’t anyway–wouldn’t want to ruffle their little super-holy feathers or anything.(somebody tell me the way to the nearest Safeway or Kroger, eh what??)

    …however, 80 bucks for a gallon of real maple syrup might not be so bad, to tell the truth- I have made it in the past while residing in northern Indiana. You gots ta boil down 40 gallons o fresh sap as quickly as possible in a very clean situation to get a gallon of high-grade syrup (lighter in color.) The syrup I helped make was way too dark because we had very outdated rustic equipment and there was woodsmoke all the time. But man, was that stuff deee-lishh in spite of it all. Some might like our dark somewhat smoky stuff better than the light grade! But that’s the standard.
    Yeah, gathering all the good clean fresh sap needed and then getting it down to thick syrup fast takes a well-controlled and pretty darn nice equipment and labor-intensive situation. The ways they do it in Vermont and Canada are probably pretty streamlined but it’s still a pretty special product. I have never seen “cheap but pure 100 percent” maple syrup anywhere in my entire life (+am over 50)..I kinda wonder if the PA syrup at the flds dairy might be Amish-produced. (I am in PA) The Amish here produce a number of natural food type items and definitely use electricity at their workplaces but not at their homes. So far as I have ever heard, at least.

  379. Whats the deal with Lenora Allred Barlow? Was she arrested or did she leave? I’ve heard conflicting reports

  380. What can be done, what can be done for any of the plyg women? not much, & the plyg sheeple? nothing right now “you can’t fix stupid”, also anybody know which prison Wendell’s in now ?? other-Anon

  381. From personal experience,I know that the most most dedicated followers of a cult become the loudest critics.As more leave the FLDS,I predict that there will be a tipping point in a few years in which the followers will be outnumbered . When people realize that their lives have been wasted following charlatans like Warren,they get pretty damn angry.

  382. Here’s the booking report & mugshot. It’s all I know.
    https://news.washeriff.net/bookings/

  383. A & E network plans a special on Warren Jeffs, from the SLTrib:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53889329-191/jeffs-biography-church-eastern.html.csp

    Should be interesting to see how they spin the story, pro polygamy or anti-polygamy.

  384. According to the SLTrib, Warren Jeffs had a brainfart, oops, revelation and has given Lyle the left foot of fellowship.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53881003-78/jeffs-lyle-warren-sect.html.csp

  385. check around for some info on Amos. he can be seen on a couple of youtube clips giving a lecture. I am really curious as to what he might have to say. A&E has a good reputation imo.

    I don’t see how they can turn this out to be a pro polygamy thing. Not with Amos and his background. He appears to have his ducks in a row and I don’t think this guy can be fooled. He’s a facts kinda guy.

    And with all that info coming from that fact finding trial in Canada. The facts back up the theories that Polygamy is harmful to those within and society as a whole.

    Those folks worked hard. Real hard at gathering all the info. Listened to both sides and then some.

    I hope all this isn’t just for show.

    Walton

    — Lenora was arrested for DV.

  386. Lenora was arrested for DV…? Whats the story?

  387. http://www.citizensactionteam.com/news-and-arrests.html

    She and the hubby were arguing and he went to the bedroom and locked the door.

    She kicked at the bedroom door and damaged the door. He called the cops.
    Walton

  388. A&E’s Biography to air show on imprisoned polygamist leader Warren Jeffs http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53889329-191/jeffs-biography-church-eastern.html.csp

    Holy cat farts, Batman!

  389. Mormon myth-busting — “sacred” underwear and other issues. http://sacurrent.com/news/mormon-myth-busting-1.1298135

  390. Shurtleff, others tackle plague of human trafficking http://bit.ly/IyJgZV

    What about FLFS trafficking? HR is a moron
    , media whore.

  391. Everybody go to mormon hair poof today and read the Brigham Brougham ad. It’s a true hoot.

  392. Hilarious mom. Read the fine print everyone.

  393. “Slavery exists today,” he said, “and we need to talk about these victims.” (Shurtleff).

    Wonder how long the PR staff worked on that comment.

  394. For those who can’t get to the A&E link:

    Warren Jeffs
    He was the “President and Prophet, Seer and Revelator”–the highest ranking official in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints. As the leader of a radical polygamous sect, Jeffs led by example; among his 70 wives were his own stepmothers as well as teen and pre-teen girls. When called to account for allegedly arranging illegal marriages between his followers and underage girls, Jeffs fled, landing on the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted List. Caught in a routine traffic stop, Jeffs began a five year journey through the judicial system. Today he is serving a life sentence for aggravated sexual assault of a pre-teen girl and 20 years for the sexual assault of a young teenager. But from his prison cell he’s promised to cast doom upon America in a torrent of apocalyptic storms and earthquakes.
    Upcoming Airings
    Monday April 16 at 9:00PM EDT
    Tuesday April 17 at 1:00AM EDT

  395. Apparently Romney effectively concealed a major PAC donation.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/mitt-romney-gay-marriage_n_1391867.html?ref=tw

  396. i heard that lenoras hubby was a real loser… makes the story a little suspicious.

  397. Doesn’t make much sense to call that kind of attention to yourself.

  398. “i heard that lenoras hubby was a real loser… makes the story a little suspicious”…said Anonymous

    Well, if she was arrested by the local yokels, her version of what actually happened wouldn’t have been even taken into consideration anyway…she has no rights.

  399. i wonder how many times he kicked the bedroom door down…

  400. http://mormonhair.tumblr.com/post/19682902065/jeannie-r-barlow-unspecified-warrant-via
    Those wild Barlow women

  401. Jeannie Barlow is my aunt. wonder what she did?

  402. Rebecca Musser’s new book, to be published later this year, is called “The Witness Wore Red.” #flds

  403. Speaking of Rebecca Musser, hear’s an article from the SLTrib.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53898132-78/jeffs-musser-alone-flds.html.csp

    Well written article IMO.

  404. In my state today, I saw the good guys kick some butt!
    So that means… the good guys are still out there.

    And that makes me feel good! 🙂
    Walton

  405. From L. Whitehurst’s blog on SLT site.

    “A&E’s Biography is taking on polygamous sect leader Warren Jeffs. The show is set to air next Monday at 9 p.m. Eastern, (7 p.m. Mountain) and Tuesday at 1 a.m. Eastern, (11 p.m. Mountain”

    Next Monday would be 4/16/12. I don’t get that show so if someone sees it please post about it.

  406. I can’t wait to read Rebecca Musser’s book!!!

  407. Rebecca Musser interviewed by KSL, a very positive article, watch the video also.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=19957369&title=key-witness-in-flds-trials-shares-her-story&s_cid=featured-1

    And she wore red, take that Warren!

  408. Former sister wife details ‘constant state of fear’ at Texas polygamist ranch http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865553901/Key-witness-in-FLDS-trials-spoke-out-for-those-who-have-no-voice.html?pg=2

  409. The Rebecca Musser articles are informative. I think maybe, I am understanding this part a little better. I have lots of questions, but I will only ask one for now.

    For years, those in position watched and did nothing. Some even stood up on stage and announced that they would not charge those for Polygamy but if other laws were broke they would step in. Warren was only 1 part of a huge problem. The problems were there before Warren and they are still there.

    By allowing the first law to be broke and nothing done, room was allowed for other laws to be broke and the victim list grew.

    I want to know, when Utah and Arizona are going to step up and start enforcing those laws that everyone else must follow?

    Walton

  410. Next Monday would be 4/16/12. I don’t get that show so if someone sees it please post about it.

    chemist said this on April 12, 2012 at 2:30 AM

    chemist, I don’t know why they have episode 0 listed above the description of the show. Maybe they are changing their minds.

    The big thing for me will be hearing what Amos has to say. This is a big thing imo.

    I wonder if Amos spoke at the human smuggling thing in Utah?
    Walton

  411. I think it just says episode 0 because it hasn’t run yet. After it does, you should be able to view it on the A&E website.

    Anybody else ready for a new thread? We’re at 410 🙂

  412. I have high hopes for Rebecca Mussers book. I loved Escape, but I have found all the others to be disapointing and/or repetitive rehashes of Escape. This one has potential. Potential that can only be topped if a certain redhead grows up to write a book.

  413. I just looked at this new Rebecca Musser video and read the article with it. I already feel inspired. Even though I have never been in such a situation as she was in, my heart feels lifted. I can’t wait for her book.

  414. I liked Brent’s book and Elissa’s too. I also liked the books about the LeBaron group by Irene and Susan.

    I will be preordering Becky’s book as soon as it is available.

  415. Please continue this discussion in the new thread:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/general-discussion-76-the-witness-wore-red/

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