Discussion #74 – In Memoriam

Continued from General Discussion #73

To remember the young lives taken from their friends, family and neighbors during a tumultuous time.

Monica Joy Bistline and Rachael Anne Colgrove

Virgel Taylor Roundy

Carl Otto Nathaniel Holm

Jamison Holm Timpson

~ by FLDS TEXAS on March 12, 2012.

112 Responses to “Discussion #74 – In Memoriam”

  1. Very nice FLDS Texas.

  2. Thanks, a little help was needed. Seeing the pictures really puts this tragedy in perspective.

  3. Is this the same Carl Holm that was about one grade ahead of me (that would put him at about 40 years old)?

  4. No, this is Carl Holm, CON Holm’s son–he was 22.

  5. Saw the movie “Martha Marcy Mae Marlene” yesterday, another film on the difficulty of leaving cult life and the difficulty of breaking out of the brain washing. Made me think of the FLDS, especially those on the YFZ compound.

  6. I was catching up on the blog……Lyle booted? Anyone have confirmation on this?

    Doesn’t matter if he’s not booted yet he soon will be. If he is ……….i must be a prophet or something cause I saw this coming. I think I even posted it on this blog somewhere. If any of you want to send my tithing email me and Ill give you a mail adress lol.

    I saw that they put up a sign at the crash site in memory of those kids. I thought it was nice. I have a picture but havn’t figured out how to post it here. Too tired to research right now.

  7. Is this the picture you were referring to Brad Overlord?

  8. yes

  9. Beautiful youngsters! Thanks, FLDS Texas.

    I can barely imagine the desolation of losing a child; only that it must be many times worse than losing a parent or spouse.

  10. Lyle booted….hmmmmm. Seems WJ can’t seem to find someone he likes to run the place. Was Lyle getting too big for his britches? Making decisions WJ didn’t like? Curiouser and curiouser!

  11. If it’s true Lyle got booted , J Wayman isn’t any better ,look who he has for examples : WSJ & Lyle ! No difference ,just business as usual “you can’t fix stupid” lol ……other-Anon

  12. I don’t think he got booted.

  13. Warren’s phone privledges could be reinstated end of this month. No telling what else he will be able to do.

  14. He wont be giving driving lessons.

  15. I think you’re right OO, I have my doubts about the booting of Lyle.

    As for Warren’s phone privileges, I’ve heard March 25 is the magic day. Those of you in the Crick, Ranch and Pringle should screen your phone calls very carefully after that.

  16. Here’s an article I found from the LDS church website, it talks about if Mormons believe they will have planet and become Gods. From article it would appear that LDS don’t believe so, maybe that’s what Warren the weird tells the FLDS.

    “Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?
    No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).”


    Dose anyone out there know why FLDS teaches everyone will get plant, become a “god’ while the LDS says it’s not so?

  17. I think you’re right OO, I have my doubts about the booting of Lyle.
    As for Warren’s phone privileges, I’ve heard March 25 is the magic day. Those of you in the Crick, Ranch and Pringle should screen your phone calls very carefully after that.
    ProudTexan said this on March 12, 2012 at 7:22 PM

    I would agree PT & OO, that this could be some sort of loyalty test, or a way to check if FLDS members are accessing the internet. Put a rumor out on the blogs that Lyle has been booted and see who starts talking about it. Lyle & Warren then know who has been disloyal by surfing the web and viewing anti-polygamy sites such as this one.

    Hopefully the folks at TDCJ will aggressively monitors Warrens calls to prevent threats against persons such as Rebecca Musser, prevent rules violations.

  18. I think you’re right OO, I have my doubts about the booting of Lyle.
    ProudTexan said this on March 12, 2012 at 7:22 PM

    Just think about the possibilities.

    For all intents and purposes, no one is “married” now. The men are supposedly just caretakers of their families. No new marriages, no toys, no vacations, no shopping in town, no procreation. Just constant prayer. I mean, under those circumstance, there’s no point in procreating.

    Lyle could easily have been sent on another “mission” to do some “caretaking” in another place (of hiding? remember Uncle Fred?). What better way to get Lyle whisked away and out of reach of those pesky lawsuits he’s now facing. Answer them nothing; it works in UT.

    Or, he could be begging his god-brother for a revelation that reassigns him away from his long hard labors in the Crick. He’s probably feeling pretty burnt out by now. Give someone else some bishop experience.

  19. Here is another article on the crash, along with pics of Big Warren road.


    IRT Lyle, I think Warren got a lot of money when he demanded Five THOUSAND from every family at the first of the year, and perhaps is feeling Lyle is holding back now that they have been fully fleeced.

    So much paranoia can grow when you dont keep good records. I hope Lyle got a nice new car out of this deal.

  20. I suspect that Warren is about ready to pull his hair out since he has been without phone privileges. Haven’t seen many Revelations come out either. I’d say we’d better batten down the hatches come March 25.

  21. Ha! The monster will be unleashed upon the sheeple peeples with his voice of demon.

    Lyle will have some ‘splainin to do, where is that 5k per family!?

  22. Dose anyone out there know why FLDS teaches everyone will get plant, become a “god’ while the LDS says it’s not so?

    A Texan said this on March 12, 2012 at 8:44 PM

    I heard a woman mormon scholar on an interview on NPR show HERE AND NOW say that LDS used to beleive this but now with research had determine it was actually not the case. I tried to quickly find it and it may be part of this segment since it is close to the time I heard it. But, may not be.


  23. Water girl, that was Professor Kathleen Flake in NPR. I heard it too but all I can say is I was taught both by family and at church (mainstream) that we would all become gods and polygamous wives of gods of our own planets if we played our cards right.

  24. Water girl, that was Professor Kathleen Flake on NPR. I heard it too but all I can say is I was taught both by family and at church (mainstream) that we would all become gods and polygamous wives of gods of our own planets if we played our cards right. Flake stated this was merely a 19th century belief.

  25. Oops.

  26. 3C, “If we played our cards right” are the bywords in what you said. I don’t know what Warren’s FLDS teaches now, but in the olden days, I was taught much the same as you, except that only 144,000 faithful men ever born on this planet would become gods in their own right. It’s possible for everyone to make it to the celestial kingdom even as servants, but only 12,000 men from each of the 12 tribes of Israel will become actual gods. Giving up that teaching is just another reason FLDS claims the LDS church is in apostasy.

  27. Wow, anon. I didn’t even know about the 12K rule. Were those faithful men pre-destined or was it according to how they lived their lives on earth whether they’d qualify?

    It really chafes my hide when contemporary mainstream mormon scholars treat some of the core beliefs I was raised in the mainstream church with as quaint 19th century folk beliefs. It invalidates my own experience.

    Chemist can probably attest that it is not as if bishoprics just get to do their own thing and the teachers teach whatever they like. The church is pretty tightly held to a core curriculum and teachers closely follow a teaching manual.

  28. For LDS to not believe in being able to become a god would pretty much make the Celestial Kindom worthless. The whole LDS/FLDS belief is base almost entirely on becoming a god. Here is one of the lil sayings that I believe is in the book of mormon somewhere.

    “As man is, god once was. As god is, man may become.”

  29. OO, I think that quote is all over that beautiful visitor’s center at the SLC temple.

  30. If I had been paying tithing and saying my prayers and doing my church duties for my whole life then get told by the church….”sorry we read it wrong you dont get to be a god…..sorry” I think my keep sweet would get busted lol

  31. I cant talk too much about the differnt gods and levels of heaven……….my brain gets confused and pretty soon i realize im talking about star wars or highlander movies or perhaps a mixture of both lol.

  32. 144,000 faithful men ever born on this planet would become gods in their own right.
    Anonymous said this on March 13, 2012 at 10:55 AM

    The mainstream Mormon Church now says they have a membership in the 11 million range, if I remember correctly. So only 1% will make it to that level? They command you to grow the church but, if you do then you would have even less of a chance at it. Awfully deflating that you could jump through the hoops your whole life and still not make it. Maybe Occupy LDS will be the next movement.

  33. ooops my math is WRONG. reverse, erase. Only men can be gods. I keep forgetting this is a patriarchal religion where women are second class citizens.

  34. 144,000 is a quorum. There can be more than one quorum.

  35. Hmm. More than one quorum.

    Watergirl, don’t forget we women get to be one of many celestial polygamous baby making machines, or even better “handmaids unto handmaids” for the rest of our existence. Heaven obviously rocks.

  36. shouldnt you be in the kitchen instead of posting here? lmao

    sorry had to do it……couldnt stop myself

  37. Probably, and barefoot and pregnant too. Hee hee.

  38. Ha… I remember my dad telling me that even if I was a toilet bowl cleaner (holy shit?) for anyone higher up in the celestial kingdom it would be orders of magnitude better than being in the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms. Few there be that become father gods or wife mothers of a new human race and a fresh new planet. Oh, make that “planets” for some of the really really holy rollers. It’s the celestial kingdom that matters; not how many wives or how many children or …. lessee…. what were you saying, OO? Oh yeah… my sweet got busted too… way back when good ol’ dad was trying to ‘splain all this to me and my logical brain rebelled.

  39. Every woman here needs to go do your job and make me a sandwich.

  40. I’m normally to busy chasing some sort of criminal to make you any sandwiches.

  41. And too busy using the wrong to/too. That alone says that you belong in a kitchen. Go make me a sandwich.

  42. All right, that’s fair. I normally take such pride in my grammar.

  43. I used to attend a church years ago in Houston.The preacher there got “full” of himself and started throwing out members that didn’t agree with his policies.It lasted for a while,and there was always the devoted hangeroners ,but it finally collapsed .I will ALWAYS remember him telling me about a certain couple that left and moved back to their church up north.The wife developed breast cancer. He looked at me point blank one day and told me she was being punished because by moving,they were out of the “Lords will”. He (the pastor)came down with lung cancer later on and lived on five years….and the wife,doing great and free of cancer.The FLDS are self destructing right now.It might take a while,but they will dwindle down to a insignificant little cult.

  44. One more little side note.This same preacher felt lead to start a Christian school on the backs of our work and money.Mark and Lillian Chynoweth even help support the school through income from Reliance Appliance.I drove by the school the other day.The roof had finally caved in.Now,whenever some one tell me that “God gave them a burden to start a…. (insert school,church,or whatever here) , I just turn around and quietly walked the other direction. I have close family members that say things like this.I treat them the same.

    I KNOW what a cult is.

  45. The problem is that with large families, all it takes is two children per household to keep the fanaticism alive, which makes it hard to die out. But with the new policies, that may now happen.

  46. Robert, interesting on Mark and Lillian. I have heard before that folks often jump right into another cult to fill the void upon leaving one.

  47. Anonymous 3:35 PM,

    I did.

    It was delicious.

  48. Every woman here needs to go do your job and make me a sandwich.

    Anonymous said this on March 13, 2012 at 3:35 PM

    You would make an excellent scrub nurse in my OR, sir.

  49. Good to see ya BIB.

  50. All women were designed and created to make sandwiches for men. Get used to it. Now go make me a sandwich.

  51. i’m on a stakeout right now. Your job is to bring me a thermos of something. And I mean right now. Move!

  52. @ sandwich

    All FLDS men must prepare to have their pin pulled by Warren. Its their destiny.

    My guess is that you have had your pin pulled long ago.

  53. Watkiss on CCA police decertification:

  54. Does anybody know the details of the other 3 funerals? I know the 2 that are this weekend.

  55. Watched the Watkiss Clip

    Seeing Helaman Barlow testifying against Warren Jeffs is New.
    Last time I was in his truck, all he could talk about was faithful vs..
    non faithful members of the church. The problem as he saw it was
    the ” Non faithful” who were ruining the environment for the Faithful.
    I asked him ” how do you determine who is and who is not faithful,
    and isn’t that Gods job anyway ? ” He had no reply.
    We were running from the cops when it was his dad ( Sam ) as the sheriff.
    Never met a bigger doofus. His kids were the stinky ones in class and I bet they still are. We were gracious enough to accept them and love them
    anyway. I pulled Helamans dumb ass out of the sump after the pallet raft
    sunk. When I got to him he was sitting on the bottom. I had to fight him to get him to shore and work the blue out of his almost lifeless body. When I reunited with him ( Helaman ) I was under arrest for a warrant out of page Az. that was 12 years old. When I appeared on the charge, the judge was
    perplexed. They had no evidence . Helaman counts me as unfaithful.
    Helaman has judged me. Helaman is of no use to me.

  56. Interesting….very interesting

  57. http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/polygamous-town-target-of-arizona-lawmakers-28609070.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Fpolygamous-town-target-of-arizona-lawmakers-28609070.html

    wow the story has hit yahoo

  58. Jonathan Roundy -Helaman Barlow -Curtis Cook and Dan Darger
    tell themselves every day ” If they find out what we are hiding, NOT
    only will we be without jobs but we will probably do time with the rest of the abusers. We cant fail… Its our asses.

    I understand why Sam Johnson ran and hid. Hes on the list too, and
    he tells himself the same thing.

    Years of covered up truth, lies in the hands of these people. The victims
    are countless. While standing behind a badge they permit the grossest offences against women and children. After taking an oath to serve and protect, they LIE outright and follow blindly . This is not news, Its been happening for 20 years +.

    Helaman was involved in a coverup at an early age. After succumbing to his carnal urges, he engaged in sexual intercourse with another mans wife.
    Laura ( Barrett ) Black. We were stunned as kids that he would do such a thing. After a lecture from the leadership, Helaman was dismissed and Laura was returned to her fathers home is grave dishonor. She was labeled
    a Whore and that’s the end of her. We never heard or seen of her again.
    The Cook family has had their share of sexual misdeeds so numerous
    that only the tip of the iceberg is showing. The lines of family and sexual appetite have been blurred for three generations or more. Somehow they
    have believed its ok to molest.

    As i drive through the cities of Hildale and Colorado City, You cannot help
    but notice how absolutely ugly it has become. If these are Gods chosen people, then God is sloven and undone. The garbage of century’s, piled high in and around half completed hovels. The grandeur of the setting is engulfed with the sight of DIS-ORDER.

    How much more time do we need to give these poor people before they receive a wake up call? How many more secrets do we need to let grow?
    How many more unnecessary sacrifices must be made?
    When will the good men and women come forth and stand for Truth?

    Where are you?

  59. Well this both sad and not surprisingly given the general competence and mind set of the AG and the legislature of Utah:



  60. I too, remember hearing about Helaman and Laura, years ago. Shocked the life out of me that he wasn’t sent away.

  61. I remember when that all went down HHG. It was very shortly after the raid of YFZ. Theres more I know about it that I wont discuss. I went over to that house a few times just off bluff. It always made me angry. Most the kid’s I talked to over there acted like they just wanted hand outs like it was owed to them.

    It was interesting times for sure.

  62. And about the garbage in the creek. Theres hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of scrap metal there. If they are looking for money……..just sayin.

  63. Monica Joy Bistine
    Funeral services will be Saturday at 12:00 PM at El Capitan High School, 250 South Cottonwood Street in Colorado City
    viewing Friday in the Spilsbury Mortuary 110 S Bluff St, St George
    5:00 to 7:00 and Saturday at the High School from 10:00 to 12:00
    Interment will take place at the Toquerville cemetery

    Rachel Anne Colgrove
    Funeral services will be Sunday at 11;00 AM at the Centennial Park Chapel
    viewing Saturday from 6:00 to 9:00 PM and from 9:00 to 10:45 pror to services, both in the Centennial Park Chapel

    Jamison Holm Timpson
    Funeral services will be Friday at 2:00 PM in the Holm Sunday School Building. Viewings will be Thursday from 6:00 to 9:00 PM in the Spilsbury Mortuary in St George and from 11:00 AM to 2:00 PM in the Holm Sunday School Building

  64. What a sordid mess seething in such a starkly beautiful landscape.

  65. That is for sure one of the greatest offenses. The town used to be beautiful, a quaint little community in the shadow of the hills. The setting in stark contrast with chaos… It turns my stomach. More especially so because it wasn’t always so. The people were not always governed by lawless and selfish madmen, controlling and condemning the innocent. And now the innocent are no longer even that, but contributors to the atrocity.

  66. Wow. Wild allegations about “Lost Boys” home in St. George: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865552160/FBI-SL-County-probe-alleges-fraud-sexual-trysts-in-FLDS-lost-boys-program.html?pg=1

  67. Too bad the FBI and the State don’t move that fast on worse allegations in the creek! If the FBI truly is doing any sort of investigating about the goings-on, they sure are taking their own sweet time!

  68. When Rulon was still alive, he told me in a personal interview, “I have the entire police force under my thumb.” Was Helaman an officer at that point in time? Probably around ’95 as best as I can guess.

  69. More on the time frame of when he said this; it was shortly before he moved from the house near Central street and Utah avenue to the one a mile west on Utah Avenue.

  70. To pinpoint the time frame when this was said, it was shortly before Rulon moved from the house at Utah Avenue and just east of Central street to the one a mile west. (If this double posts; sorry. The first one didn’t show up. Maybe a word somehow put it in moderation).

  71. I will actually be supprised if the bill to disband the az plyg cops passes. Its been proven many times over that our government lacks common sense. Its all bunch of political correctness and watching out for people’s feelings.

  72. …since a few others are identifying themselves as wife# this or that, I want to lay claim to the title Wife # 0 before somebody else takes it.

    I was one once, and definitely never wanna be one again…(hub died prematurely)— just for the record and all.

    This fact is one of the reasons I have watched the plyg thing so long now. I am trying to figure out why more fems don’t get it out there that they don’t have to be ANYBODY’S wife. EVER. I don’t care about the cultural landscape and all the cultish fear. A lot of the gals need to quit the crazy marriage and “plural” marriage clap-trap out there and just make their own way in life. Land’s sake, it gives me the willies (oops, I did say that) when I think of how many times babes have been forced into stuff they hate out there.

  73. http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2012/03/14/warren-jeffs-mail-county/


    Warren is mailing again

  74. Mom, I actually totally understand your feelings on the marriage thing. But mostly the attitude that one HAS to be married, is offensive to me. Marriage should not only be a choice, but optional! You can rest assured that my own marital decision was made with my eyes wide open. It is not for everyone and should absolutely NEVER be forced! By the same token, I am acquainted with many incredibly successful single as well as married women. They are, by their own volition competent members of society. So you are right on one hand, women should completely bypass the whole marriage thing if that is their preference, and on the other, get married if you are so inclined. It’s an individual adult decision and should be treated as such.

  75. Wife #2, go make me a sandwich.

  76. Third cousin ,I think Mark and Lillian wanted their kids in the church school because they felt it was safer than a public school.Parents were required to try and attend the church,but Lillian rarely was there.Their appliance store was also within two miles of the church.I had NO idea at the time that they feared for their lives,I just didn’t know their backgrounds that well.By the time I met them,the two had already participated in several murders.

  77. just a sandwich? I could do better than that!

  78. Spectrum obits today. Very short.

  79. Sorry. Bistline and Colgrove.


  80. Thanks for the info Robert. I guess most of us will always wonder about the nature of Lillian’s death. Someone knows for sure.

  81. Sandwich boy must really need some help.

    He brought lots of bologna and is outstanding in his field – as a bologny holder.

  82. http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20120316/NEWS01/203160333/Judge-increases-visitation-rights?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFrontpage

    An article about Lorin Holm’s fight for custody of his children still under the mind control of Warren and Lyle Jeffs.

    If you can’t view the article from the link, google Judge increases visitation rights

  83. I think sandwich boy needs to make his own sandwich and also make sandwiches for all of his concubines and children.

  84. I’ve always wondered what really happened to Lillian. How many children did she and Mark have in all?

  85. Keate conviction upheld.


  86. “Appellant offered no contravening evidence regarding paternity of the child. Nor did he offer evidence that M. Barlow became pregnant by some act other than sexual intercourse with him.
    He did not present his theory of artificial insemination to the jury in any way whatsoever”

    Hmmmmmmm look what not presenting a defense will get you. You can’t argue it to the Court of Appeals if it wasn’t brought up in Court.

  87. Warren still typing out predictions huh?

    When is he getting out of prison?

  88. Sandwich boy got concubines and rug rats?

    I would believe that when I see it. AFAIK he is just a wanna be like Hugh and Scotty.

  89. “In his argument against admissibility, appellant characterizes FLDS as an extreme breakaway sect of the Mormon church and appears to argue that because the church and the views of its leader (the prophet) are not mainstream, these documents should not be included in the hearsay
    exception for religious organizations”

    Looks like Keate’s attorney is claiming the FLDS isn’t a religion.

  90. “We analogize it to gang evidence in that it demonstrates appellant’s beliefs and character through his participation and membership in an organization that, per doctrine and practice, engages in activities that constitute crimes against children”

    I love that the FLDS are being likened to a gang.

  91. Thank you for the posts re: keat’s appeal. Somewhat deja vue; more money to defense lawyers and the flds men take another loss.

  92. Third cousin,I can tell you what I know about Lillian’s death.I had talked to her several times months before she died and you could tell that she was severely depressed.Lillian and Mark were soul mates.His loss devastated her but she had to carry on because of the kids.Police reports show that she sat down in her recliner one evening and took her life with a pistol.There is nothing else to prove otherwise.Anytime there is a “blood atonement”,the perpetrators want it to be known so that the fear factor will keep other sheeple in line.Lillian was a sweet woman,but Ervil ruined her and everyone else around him.He was pure evil.

  93. what ever happened to the tax case in Canada?

  94. Best I can tell it’s still going on but just too boring for any of the papers to cover. Nothing Winston says can be used against him in a criminal trial because his attorney subpoenaed him. I’m sure there are RCMP there taking notes so they know what to dig for, but that’s about it.

  95. Enough with the sandwiches already. It’ was almost funny once or twice but now it’s getting annoying.

  96. This time from the bench, yet another remark from Utah explaining why the locals have heartburn dealing with polygamists and the attendant abuses found therein. Heaven help us if he cant see this cult contains unfettered serial child abusers:

    “Shumate indicated depositions of the Peines next week may provide evidence of whether they know about institutionalized exploitation in the culture.

    Shumate compared the stereotyping of the FLDS religion to community efforts to drive The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from Illinois in the 1800s and the Huguenots from France in the 1600s.

    “Heaven help us if we don’t learn anything from (those cases),” he said.”


    Or google: Lorin Holm custody

  97. For wannabe Po’ Boy Sandwich Patriarch:

    Something to get you started on your way to becoming an independent, responsible, sandwich-making adult:


  98. Mr. Sandwich, you’ve been asked to stop with the sandwich comments. We want you to post here, but telling people to make you a sandwich isn’t a discussion and it needs to stop.

  99. “Shumate indicated depositions of the Peines next week may provide evidence of whether they know about institutionalized exploitation in the culture.
    Shumate compared the stereotyping of the FLDS religion to community efforts to drive The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from Illinois in the 1800s and the Huguenots from France in the 1600s.
    “Heaven help us if we don’t learn anything from (those cases),” he said.”

    Anon and off said this on March 17, 2012 at 9:47 AM

    Isn’t this the same judge who presided over WSJ’s Utah trial? The one who heard testimony that WSJ forced a 14-year-old girl to marry an adult man against her will – as a favor to Fred Jessop? Did he not watch with his own eyes as a parade of FLDS’ faithful testified that, while, yes that did happen, it was their religion – and therefore OK.

    Isn’t he the one who listened to the audio tape of WSJ raping a child – and then took immediate action – to protect Jeffs from any consequences by ruling the tape inadmissible in the trial. (He said it was “too inflammatory”.)

    I’d be curious to know what the good judge considers “exploitation” – if forced marriage (underage or otherwise) and child rape doesn’t qualify.

  100. So many of you were so happy with the justice system when it put Warren Jeffs in prison, and now what? Now no?

  101. I think the TEXAS justice system has done great job! What has Utah done? Nothing.

  102. Tried viewing the story through Google with typing what was suggested and it didn’t help so I’ll wait till they post it on another paper.

  103. This isn’t about child abuse here; this blog is about polygamy.

  104. That may be true….however, there has been a lot of evidence presented of child abuse within polygamy, therefore, they are related topics.

  105. Kelly, if you put the whole news headline into your Google search, you’ll get the article intact; in this case, “ Judge increases FLDS exile’s visitation rights ” (quotes not necessary)

    All the Spectrum articles can be viewed using that little trick.

  106. Anon @ 6:59 and 7:17, it’s a general discussion thread, it just reminds people of the young people who had fled from Warren/Lyle’s abuse and mc1199 is right, it isn’t just about polygamy, it is about the abuse that is the FLDS. Polygamy is part of that but child abuse and sexual abuse are also parts of it.

    As for Judge Shumate and his decisions in the Lorin Holm case, I think he is simply trying to take it slow so that when the children have been able to spend some time with their father and get reacquainted with him. Before Judge Shumate’s orders they had been kept from him for over a year.

  107. Anon @3:15, I’m really happy with the TEXAS justice, it’s put 10 child abusing men in jail. Can’t say much for the Utah justice system though, it seems to suck.

  108. Not that I’m thrilled with Shumate and his record where FLDS litigation is concerned, but when he (or whoever the judge was) listened to that rape tape, he did make the correct legal call. It was “inflammatory” and inadmissible because it had nothing to do with the UT charges against Jeffs. It showed what an extreme pervert he was, but it was irrelevant to Elissa Wall’s case.

    The inflammatory tape was certainly admissible during his TX trial where the taped rape occurred. The TX justice system got it right.

  109. This information was posted earlier about Keate, here’s the San Angelo paper’s story on losing his appeal. Keate can now appeal to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals in Austin, TX which will most likely uphold the lower appeals court ruling. Then Keate could appeal to the US Supreme Court in Washington D.C., but the results likely would be the court refusing to hear the case ending all appeals avenues.


  110. It was “inflammatory” and inadmissible because it had nothing to do with the UT charges against Jeffs. It showed what an extreme pervert he was, but it was irrelevant to Elissa Wall’s case.

    EJay said this on March 17, 2012 at 7:50 PM

    I do believe that is how Judge Shumate saw it when he made the ruling. However, Jeff’s conviction was overturned because (this is how the NY times summarizes it: “Mr. Jeffs could not be found guilty unless he specifically intended for the girl’s husband to have nonconsensual sex with her, which Mr. Jeffs denied.” http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/28/us/28jeffs.html

    The fact that Jeff’s raped his own child brides does have a bearing on whether or not he intended Elissa’s “husband” to do the same.

    My real point, though, is that Judge Shumate was clearly exposed to a culture in which people thought it was just fine to pressure a child to marry an adult. I find it disturbing that he doesn’t consider that evidence of a “culture of exploitation”. Just because a little girl is born into your family – that does not give you the right – in this country at least – to force her into an unwanted marriage. Early marriage and motherhood is a huge deal. Parents have rights -but they are not the rights of lifetime property owners. Religious leaders have rights -but those rights do not include trapping girls into motherhood before they have a chance to decide for themselves what they want their lives to be.

    This is really the heart of the issue: Forced or coerced marriage should NEVER be protected by claims of “religious freedom”. There should be no question that coerced marriage – at any age – counts as exploitation. The UN Charter of Human Rights Article 16 (2) (2) “Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.”

  111. So if I understand the comments above Judge Shumate is the judge who heard the tape and ruled it inadmissible? I thought, because I am easily confused, that was Judge Dee Benson….?

  112. Please continue your discussion on the new thread.


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