General Discussion #73

Continued from General Discussion #72

March: Wendell’s Trial, New Judge, UEP gets punted back to the Utah Supreme Court

NEW:        2 page FLDS Questionaire to determine worthiness as expected by Lyle.

Damned if you are and damned if you aren’t?
Page 2:

  

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on March 3, 2012.

177 Responses to “General Discussion #73”

  1. Here’s a copy of the 10th Circuit’s ruling in the #FLDS UEP case: http://scr.bi/xBJpIY @fox13now #polygamy #Utah

  2. Thanks PW. They only had one question, and its estimated it may take up to a year to answer. Also, it took 22 pages to formally ask it.

  3. Replying to Stamp from Discussion Thread #72, it was Carlos Jr who was looking for his mom and sisters. The only thing his dad wanted to know was how the hell Carlos found out about the whole situation.

    Sounds like his dad needs a good kick in the pants.

  4. That damn ruling takes 7 pages just to name all the parties, 1 page to ask the question and then 7 pages to explain the question not to mention the 5 page letter it took to get copies to all the “interested” parties.

  5. Our lovely court system at work. We all could have written the opinion and question in one page! LOL

  6. Can somebody tell me what the question was? I scrolled forever to the opening page and read “a question” but it was in legalese and I could not interpret what “the question” was.

  7. The 10th Court wants the Utah Supreme Court to say whether or not it’s ruling was a final ruling on the merits and if their ruling of laches barred other courts from ruling on it.

  8. Thanks, PT. I needed that clarification too. Legalese makes me nuts.

  9. Shaggy- if you really don’t know where your mom and sisters are at please call Gary Engels or better yet go see him and look him in the eye and tell him you need him to help you. He might not know the answers but he won’t lie to you. and ..he will point you in the right direction. Gary’s # is listed here on page 21: http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/cmsdocuments/SafetyNetDirectory.pdf

    Tell him you want to file a missing persons report.

    Also talk to Issac Wyler. again he might not know the answers but I think he will keep his eyes and ears open and be supportive in your search.

    I can’t say how I know this, but I think your mom and sisters are in a safe place. I only wish that the yo yo’s that are in charge would get their acts together and tie up loose ends.

    You could also call Sheriff Doran and ask him to do a welfare check out at the Ranch to see if she is being kept out there. Not sure if he will get any answers but he won’t lie to you.

    Walton
    oh and Shaggy- as a mom I would hope that you loose the F word when asking these folks for help. Good luck with your search

  10. Before you even talk to all those I’ve mentioned you might want to reach outside the box and get a paper trail started from the outside in.. it might make some move a little faster or at least move.
    Because there are minors involved I don’t know if these folks can help but I know they will point you in the right direction:

    http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/ServiceServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=186

    1-800-843-5678

    The 24-Hour Hotline receives calls for service from

    Families and law-enforcement agencies calling to report a missing child and seek assistance in their search
    People reporting the sighting of a missing child and requesting safety information to better protect their children
    People reporting child-sexual exploitation
    Professionals seeking resources to assist them in their missing- and sexually exploited child cases
    Parents who need reunification assistance once their child is found

    Walton

  11. Street is pontificating on blood atonement on feralfems Blog, Texas Polygamy. Guess he has an audience there for his “sermon “?

    PW

  12. — The above is from youtube with following description…. Indie film debuted in Germany.

    “Pregnant by music? On her 15th birthday, Rachel, a young Mormon girl from a fundamentalist Utah community, discovers a forbidden cassette tape with rock music on it. Having never heard anything like it, she has a miraculous experience and three months later, claims to have had an immaculate conception from listening to the music. Her parents arrange a marriage, but Rachel runs away to the closest city, LAS VEGAS, to search for the man who sings on the tape, thinking he has something to do with her mysterious pregnancy…”

  13. Without knowing more about it, it sounds like some hanky panky was occurring.

  14. Right! Nothing immaculate, I’m sure.

  15. The #LDS Church has been officially recognized as a religion by Hungary’s Parliament: http://bit.ly/yxEouw #Mormon #Utah

    Ben Winslow Twitter

  16. Storms hit here in my area. No one hurt just damage to property. After the storm there was a huge rainbow in the sky. Reminded me of God’s promise to not destroy the earth with flood again. I thought about Warren and wondered why he is predicting God to damage the “wicked” when God made it clear he would not.

  17. well, for one thing, God’s idea of wicked and Warren’s idea of wicked are often two different things. Plus, God knows everything for real. But warren “knows” things occasionally due to coincidence, and the rest of the time according to whatever w happens to want personally…and at that point, what he “knows” and what “God has commanded” seem to suddenly coincide again. It’s a strange little profit checker game he plays, as we all know.
    Wow!- there’s a little poetic coincidence right there! der profit DOES seem to be good at CHECKING PROFITS.. and then he’s good at commandeering them all of a sudden..

  18. p.s…speaking of w checking things, he excels at “checking” babes as well, does he not?…to reprise a favorite line from the National Banana gangsta rap on youtube about flds… the guy who plays w on it raps, “Check that old maid! She’s almost 13! Bettah wash dat brain til it’s squeaky clean!!”

  19. Hey its god…..if anyone can go back on their word god can.

  20. Anybody heard anything in recent “purge” here in Short Creek ? As for idiots driving by fast what good would it do to talk to “do nothing Roundy”? he’s not going to stop idiots/god squad/morality police/sin patrol from doing what they want “you can’t fix stupid”,especially since the SHEEPLE are that way,,lol–other-Anon

  21. I havn’t heard anything on the purge. Maybe they all passed lol.

  22. But if you report it to Roundy and he does nothing, that’s one more nail in his coffin.

  23. Utah fails to pass bill disbanding “short creek” cops, appears the balls now in Arizona’s hands to end the corrupt FLDS controlled cops.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53650359-78/bill-utah-arizona-department.html.csp

    IMO another sweeping the problem under the rug, guess it will take another sensational polygamy crime like the Lafferteys or Mitchell before Utah dose something other than promise to look at it next year.

  24. Utah is so utterly appalling

  25. Bill to disband polygamous town’s police department dies:

    Bill to disband polygamous town’s police department … http://bit.ly/Aks7lH

  26. Failed in Utah, but passed one house unanimously in Arizona. Hmmmmm. Utah says they aren’t walking away, they just want to get the law right. Sure. Un huh. Right.

  27. How many sensational polygamy crimes do they need? They have reports of girls being “disappeared” right now.

  28. When Oprah visited the YFZ ranch and interviewed the teenage girls, there were some spunky individuals who spoke of studying law. Some of those girls were bright and it is hard to believe that they would just accept all that has happened. So frustrating to recall the different women, girls and children and wonder what has happened to them, what families they really belong to, and if they are ok. Wish there had been a website showing the family groupings….

  29. From what I have been told, most of those who were children at the ranch during the rescue of 2008 are still at the ranch. Some of the adults have been rearranged.

  30. not only does the AG not want to enforce the law he doesn’t want to pay for what happens when it isn’t enforced

    http://fox13now.com/2012/03/06/utah-ag-appeals-5-million-bill-in-flds-land-battle/

    hhg

  31. I am shocked, but not surprised at Utah’s lack of action. Why recognize and/or take care of a problem when someone else will do the dirty work for them. I wonder if the day will ever come when the legislators take their heads out of their collective arses and do something right abt the problems in the creek.

  32. Shurtleff has said he will not re-run for AG. Here are the dates of the next election. Now is the time for Utah to pick an AG with some backbone. The appeal will drag this out until it is the next AG’s problem.

    Key dates
    Administrative deadlines are at close of business (5:00) unless otherwise noted.
    Deadline Event
    Mar. 9 – Mar. 15 Candidate filing period
    June 26 Primary election
    Nov. 6 General election

  33. I just watched Carlos Holm Jr’s videos posted on the general discussion 72. I noticed (in the video with the note from his sister to his father) that when the woman came out on the porch with some carseat or whatever in her hands, she said she had no idea where his mother is, then soon after, when Carlos was about to leave she said,” I’ll let her know.”

  34. The strangeness of this cult is impressed upon me all over again watching Carlos’ videos of searching for his family. And hearing him read what his sister said to his father in her handwritten note on the table. How these people buy into thinking that the church leader is a good person who suddenly breaks up a marriage and a loving parent’s bond with his many children. When so many people in this world do not even know who their father is, this group takes women and children from a man who has been good to them because their “pastor” says to. Their “pastor” who collects dozens of women and girls for himself, and starts to try to breed some of them at age 12.

  35. You said it mom.

  36. http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/03/06/3788902/utah-appeals-order-to-pay-debts.html

    Utah is appealing the order to pay debts

  37. I do not see any solution to the flds madness except for more females to refuse to stay in it, and for many more lawsuits to be successful against it as an entity. This kind of hardcore belief will never go away for several reasons. The entire belief system is based unjustly on a wicked man’s lusts and extoriton talents, but were blended with large chunks of a rightly-revered Book, the Bible, and with high-sounding but made-up “orders from God.” This kind of thing has power, and with this many generations in it, surrounded by a large cultural landscape that accepts the same original though flawed books as authority, there is never going to be an end to this kind of thing. Especially because our nation now has so much moral compromise throughout its social and cultural fabric, that these people sincerely see themselves as far more righteous than our nation can ever hope to be again. And in some ways they look as though they are. So it’s a very hard thing to deal with.
    I say this having been born and raised, and still living near the original Amish area of the US, “Pennsylvania Dutch Country.” The Amish are quite ingrained, and they continue to do things which are in fact dangerous, such as eschew automobiles, taking their one-horse buggies onto major routes busy with cars and trucks. They still do this simply because they are so strongly taught to equate certain things with evil due to the original founder’s personal convictions and superstition. (They still will not use electricity in their homes, but will use it freely in places of business.) They are Bible-believing and not polygamous, but there has been much sexual abuse accustion concerning them, male relatives against females. The victims are taught that they must forgive and keep quiet as a way of showing forgiveness. They have huge families. I have never found the connection with car and electricity avoidance and their respect for the Bible. As far as I know they just keep doing what they do because it is what their parents and grandparents did. Many use computers at work, and do factory work and construction. They mingle with non-Amish freely for business, and the women and girls are seen about as much as the males all over Dutch Country. They have a large presence in the rural areas of south and central PA and still are seen by many as delightful. In some ways they are. There’s always good and bad in every group.

  38. Mom, well put. Very well put. Before I became interested in the FLDS as a religious group, I was fascinated with the Amish. Read everything I could get my hands on. Saw many good traits, yet there were areas that seemed dangerous and foreign to my personal belief system. I’ve always thought it good to stretch one’s mind to accept the way others think and express their faith, even when not in agreement. The Amish most impressed me when that horrible murder of children in a school and how the “People” chose to forgive and even reached out to the wife of the murderer. Such mercy and kindness sets an example to all.

    Then the FLDS people drew my attention with their apparent emphasis on living clean and holy lives, only to find that behind that was a false prophet dictator who is destroying his own people. Yet there are sincere and well meaning people within that group who have worth and deserve respect. It is frustrating to watch them allow their convicted false leader to continue to lead them to ungodly actions and risk their own children along the way.

    Where the Amish put great weight to their following custom and rigid exclusive lives, the FLDS blindly follow their leader into a hidden lifestyle and have learned the opposite of goodness and that truth can be replaced by cunning deception. Both groups live “set apart” lives that society calls “cults.” But there is a vast difference in teaching truth and teaching the art of lying.

    Its sad and dangerous now. I fear for those still on the ranch.

  39. I don’t think buggies are any more dangerous than bicycles. They both have a right to the road except for restricted access interstates.

  40. Very interesting at the Texas Polygamy blogspot. Feralfem has put one area for Street to post at only, leaving the other March spot for others. I don’t know why they don’t ban him. From what I read, and heard underground, Street and his pontificating about Blood Atonement has caused some issues with the regulars. Can’t say I blame them. I stopped posting because I did not want to get into a circular argument with Street. Plus, in all honesty, I think he is mentally ill. So, enter the TP blog with care.

    PW

  41. Just heard there was a car wreck that killed 5 kids and injured 1. Details are still sketchy.

  42. Heard one of johnathon roundys sons were killed in that accident

  43. No news media reports so far on any traffic accidents involving FLDS members, any more details?

  44. Appears that there’s an opening for a new judge for Hildale, UT per SLTrib;

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53670834-191/hildale-judge-utah-council.html.csp

    It would be good to see the application process flooded by non FLDS folks, don’t think they need another FLDS robot controlled by Warren the Weird or Lyle the larcenous.

  45. There’s a lot of comments on facebook about this terrible tragedy, by siblings, friends of the deceased, and family members. So interesting how this has affected every group out there. FLDS, CP, and William Jessop’s Group, Sure to be in the News tomorrow, with 5 deaths, and 1 person severely injured involved.

  46. while looking for any news updates on Winston Blackmore I found this Canadian website: http://stoppolygamy.com/

    it is listed on this sites blog roll. It has all the Canadian newpaper articles listed. I thought this was interesting: http://stoppolygamy.com/letter-urging-bcag-shirley-bond-to-lay-charges-against-winston-blackmore/

  47. Crash:
    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53675093-78/arizona-crash-car-killed.html.csp

  48. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2012/03/08/20120308arizona-fatal-crash-near-utah-border-abrk.html

  49. Helen Radkey effectively barred from LDS records database:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53667482-78/church-names-radkey-proxy.html.csp

  50. Does anybody know anything else about that crash? The news stories are surprisingly sketchy for something of that magnitude.

  51. Notifying next of kin is the more important priority for LE than notifying the news media. I can imagine LE facing a few problems trying to find next of kin in those towns.

  52. Wow on the crash!

    I can already sense I’m not going to be very liked today.

    No matter the case……..when people die in car crashes from drinking and driving……….i will always call it darwinism. Its sad but anyone dumb enough to get behind the wheel of a car while drink is signing off as an intelligent indavidual and quite possible deserves to be out of the gene pool.

    My heart realy does go out to the families. My anger goes out to the parents of these kids that failed their children in the worst possible way. Thier kids have paid for thier ignorance.

  53. I agree its more important… seems like if you were next of kin you would be knocking down the door of LE, if your kids were missing!

  54. Wife #2
    Not if the kids have been kicked out or are out on their own.

  55. OO- you are right about drinking and driving. Its a terrible chain of events that leads kids to that kid of irresponsibility. The blame could go the whole way up the chain if someone wanted to take it that far. It is still a tragedy no matter how you slice it…. If it really happened tuesday night, it was awful weather. Cold, windy and snowy!

  56. Ejay, I hear you there. Still there should be some kind of ICE contact for them. I can’t imagine in todays technilogical world there’s not some way to find and notify parents by now. btw… i don’t think it ever said for sure there was alcohol involved. Although it is likely unfortunately.

  57. No one should bring kids into this world if they are not going to teach them simple things about how to not kill themselves. I’m not going to blame up the chain. Ultimitaly no matter whats above the parents head they should still be parents. There is no excuse for blatent ignorance.

  58. True. OO…. very true. High price for a joy-ride!

  59. Unfortunately, today’s technological world has been shifted into reverse for most households in the Creek. The sad thing is, if some of those kids were kicked out, their parents aren’t going to have much sympathy. They will keep their backs turned and figure that’s what they get for their apostasy.

    Having said that, I have no idea what these kids’ status is/was in the community. I just know the mindset of the über faithful.

  60. My concern is how the FLDS leadership will use this to their advantage and blame the kids for this. “this is what will happen when you lose the spirit of God”. I knew one of the kids involved, worked with him quite a bit. Hard to think that he’s gone.

  61. Thats the exact reaction that the parents will have if they are uber faithfull. But i dont think it will be entirely cold. How does one lose a child and not feel it. They will use to excuse it was “gods will” and punishment for apostacy to nurse thier own guilt.

  62. “gods will” or not, its a major loss for some mother… brothers, sisters and cousins, friends, classmates…. I don’t think most of these people know how to grieve or even deal with loss anymore. Its just plain sad.

  63. If they didnt feel anything Wife#2 then I would suggest bulltes to fix the flds problem. I cant imagine anyone being that cold. If they are then they have ceased to be human and should not be regaurded as such.

  64. Mind control trumps emotion. From day one it is taught that “the natural man is an enemy to God.” Natural human feelings are consistently drummed out. I remember a lot of “mind over matter” lessons in my youth.

    What is hard to ever know is how they (especially the mothers) feel deep down in their hearts. Repression is the method, suppression is the goal, and unfortunately depression is very often the result. But of course to the outward eye, it has to go right back into the original cycle: repress it until IT is gone – or YOU are.

  65. Agree that driving intoxicated is stupid, but remember their brains aren’t even done growing. This is tragic.

  66. Someone on another blog is stating that a Monica and Rachel are two of the teens that died. Cant say for sure this is true

  67. Your absolutely right yeah. I’m sure lyle is thinking of this as a great opportunity for a “lesson”.

    I am sorry for your friend. There is a lesson to be learned here though. Its not that if you cross god he kills you. What kind of god would that be? The lesson is sometimes it only takes one bad choice to end all choices. I only wish these kids could have another opportunity to make the right choice.

  68. Thats why I blame the parents 3C

  69. A mother is NEVER ok with the death of a child… no matter how long or how hard she pretends!

  70. If flds try to interpret this accident as a consequence of “losing the spirit of God” then they have lots of people still in flds today that don’t have His spirit either. Because if alcohol is ruled the cause, I have read several times that many adult “faithful” flds males imbibe. Now maybe that was more under Rulon and before, I don’t know. But flds cannot paint itself as pure for many reasons. Use of alcoholby male leaders until drunk has been mentioned in several books (I recall in Carolyn Jessop’s first book, and in Brent Jeffs’ book) and swearing (I have heard them use foul language many times on videos of them.) I will never see them as pure. Just self-righteous.

  71. I dont think Ejays point is invalid Wife. I cant speak for death but I can tell you that in my family with my mother as far as I could tell could care less if I was ok let alone alive. I was written off a long time ago. Not one ounce of concernt not one tear shed when I left. Its not a far stretch for me to imagine my mother writing it off in her head If i had died.

  72. I wanted to add about the Amish buggies on busy highways- it causes people to swerve around them. The Amish are known for ruining many of their horses. I once saw an ad in a horse sale newspaper which stated “no Amish please” to would-be buyers.
    I am not a horse expert, but have owned a few, and been around them for several years in the past. I have no idea how Amish buggy horses do not all suffer leg problems with the heavy use on paved highways that they endure.
    I once went to a large horse auction held in “Dutch” country every Monday, and saw the saddest case of a standing horse I had ever seen. It went for a very low amount, probably headed for the dog food factory. It was a very ruined Amish buggy horse. So I am just saying, they have their customs, which to me sometimes do not relate in any way to Bible teachings they embrace that I have ever heard- but since there are no laws against the things they do (at least the things out in public that they do)..well there’s the freedom of religion protection.
    This post was not on-topic for flds, and I apologize for that. I might add that in all the years I have lived near Amish country in PA I have never heard anything close to the number of abuse accusations that flds have been involved with. I don’t know the number of American Amish at this point, but the abuse problems and lawsuits are far higher proportionately with flds than Amish. It is rare to hear of Amish using the courts for anything. There’s that forced hair-cutiing case right now with a small bunch of Amish in Ohio but they normally refuse to get secular courts involved in their problems.

  73. UPDATE: Police release names of the victims of crash near Centennial Park, Ariz. http://bit.ly/y6Kvyy

  74. Thanks for the update PW. This is just sickening.

  75. The Spectrum on the crash:
    http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20120308/NEWS01/120308004/Authorities-identify-5-dead-crash-near-Centennial-Park?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|Frontpage

  76. So sad that these young people lost their lives, and in such a remote area. I wonder if more would be alive if they had not spent such a long time in the outside elements. I offer my sympathies to those family and friends.

  77. LDS Church blocks whistle-blower’s access to proxy baptism data http://bit.ly/z5qFiW

  78. I think I need to walk away from this story before I crack some apostate heads.

  79. So these kids were out all night and only after they didn’t show up for school did kids after school go looking for them??? So the one girl was 15 hours stuck under the vehicle before they found her??? There has to be more to the story. Parents should have woken up every kid in town that was their friends to find out where they last saw them. Officier Roudy didn’t do that?

  80. Does anybody know the names of the parents? and I totally agree, watergirl. That would have been my first instinct too. the whole thing smells a tad fishy.

  81. The Roundy boy who died was officer roundys disowned son.

  82. How long had the Roundy kid been out?

  83. What was I just saying about the über faithful…..?

    Parents are brainwashed (by FLDS standards) to wash their hands of their “miscreant” children, let them go their way and “leave them to kick against the pricks” – in other terms, let Satan be their children’s master.

    In their minds those kids made their choice. It doesn’t matter if legally they are minors… or that the law says they are responsible for their underage children… noooooooo. Their children made a choice (a promise to god) when they were frickin’ EIGHT YEARS OLD and then they wickedly broke that promise.

    THIS is exactly how it goes down when you are caught in the throes of mind control. If you don’t understand it, it’s because you’re on the outside looking in and it will not make a lick of sense to you. You’re not alone. You’re in the company of most people who haven’t given up their lives to one man.

    Sorry for the rant. This is just soooo sad and unfortunately for me, not the least bit surprising.

  84. Here’s more on tragic accident from SLTrib:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53675093-78/crash-colorado-timpson-holm.html.csp

    Persons who knew the victims have posted in the comments of the article.

  85. KSL report on accident, read the comments also:

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=19509198&title=rollover-accident-claims-the-life-of-5-along-arizona-strip&s_cid=featured-1

  86. The only lesson involved here is for parents to make sure they know where thier kids are…. ALL THE TIME!

  87. Ejay, rant all you want. It’s good for the soul. I’m listening as most others here are too.

  88. If Roundy’s 15 year old son had been kicked out, I’d love to see him charged with child endangerment!!!

  89. Theres just no GOOD reason for kids to be out in that part of the desert at night…. on a stormy night at that. it’s dark and incredibly easy to get lost, stalled, etc. And a lot of the area is a dead zone for cell phones. I don’t think these were bad kids, just normal kids… without a lot of guidance and purpose… you know, solid parenting.

  90. I am quite sure that Stefanie is utterly devastated.

  91. I hear ya, Wife2, but I was also in high school once…

  92. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53675093-78/colgrove-crash-ariz-colorado.html.csp
    Article regarding crash
    WARNING: Picture of overturned SUV on front page

  93. http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2012/03/06/20120306utah-ag-appeals-order-flds-trust.html

    Utah AG appeals FLDS trust order

  94. http://www.sheriffin.com/article2554663/5_killed_in_rollover_accident_along_arizona_strip__deseret_news.htm

  95. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865551804/Five-killed-in-rollover-accident-along-Arizona-Strip.html?pg=2

    This is the full article from the one I posted above. Sorry!

  96. “There was a lot of beer at the scene and the group may have been out celebrating a birthday, Mohave County Sheriff’s Chief Deputy Jim McCabe told 3TV in Arizona. He also noted there were high winds in the area that night.”

    I have two kids of my own, adults now, and living in other parts of the country. I went through a period of time when my daughter was depressed over the break up with a boyfriend and she was out drinking and partying too much. What scared the hell out of her was the night I showed up announced at her apartment as she walked in wasted, having driven herself home. She was 22 years old. Needless to say, I was still the parent, not her friend, and I took the car keys away for a month. She had to rely on bus or taxi or friends to work and school. Boy was she pissed, but she never drank and drove again. Does she drink now, at age 29, yes, but very moderately. Sometimes you have to be tough with your kids no matter what their age.

    I offer my sympathy to the friends and families of these children.

    PW

  97. I agree PW.

  98. I heard an FLDS man state about his own son who apostatized and nearly died in an accident “I wish my son had died; that would have been better for him that to continue living as he is.” I hope none of the parents feel this way, but I expect a few FLDS to make statements “I am glad God took them in his mercy.”

  99. Will these poor children’s bodies lay unclaimed in the morgue and be buried in some anon grave? If the “parents” threw them away, I can’t see them rushing forward to claim them now. How sad for all concerned. I presume the mother’s suffer in silence, if at all, when they believe the child left to live among the devils of the world. Very sad.

  100. At least some of them were 2nd ward, so perhaps burial will be in Centennial Park or Cane Beds. Surely someone will step up for the banished first warders.

  101. This is a tricky situation for the parents. Wich is what frustrated me. This should be a no brainer. I’m sure they won’t be allowed in the local cemetary. I’m not sure what will happen and im not sure I want to know. I do however want to slap around some kids parents and yell at them “what the F&*k is wrong with you”.

  102. None of them are or ever were members of the CP group,

  103. The Sentinial and CP groups are less extreem. They have the same basic beliefs with only an eighth of the crazy.

    In my line of work I do business with lots of people. Even lots of people out there. I’m always amazed by both the simularites and the differences of all the groups. All fo them can be very nice people. The CP people I would have to say are the most polite. They seem to have lost some of the “I’m beter than you” complex.

  104. You know, maybe this is a chance for Will Jessop to show what he’s made of and step up for those families.

  105. What kind of things are you thinking Will Jessop can do for them?

  106. I don’t know – hold a service & burial for any unclaimed?

  107. That begs the question: Who decides who can be buried in Carling Cemetery – or not? Can William E. use it at will? (no pun intended) What are grounds for refusal? (besides being unaffordable)

  108. The victims will always have brothers or friends that are more than willing. In most cases with apostates the friends become the brothers. I have friends I would be willing to die to protect. In short creek blood is thin as air and the bonds of friendship are stronger than titanium.

    Fred Jessop always said you get to pick your family. He was right. In alot of cases we pick our friends as family when our family falls short of unconditional love. I claim many friends as brother and sister as well as my brothers and sisters.

    Will Jessop has nothing to offer in my opinion. To do so would only rub me the wrong way. I would naturally think hes trying to recruit. Benifit his belief from a disaster. Just my opinion.

  109. Didn’t somebody sue somebody a few years back over rights to bury someone at Isaac Carling?

  110. It is my understanding that anybody can use the Isaac Carling cemetery… I think it’s the big meeting house that’s restricted. But I could be wrong. That building seems to be running around the clock anyway these days.

  111. Around-the-clock prayer circles going on at the LSJ meeting house. And who knows what else!

  112. The spaceship is coming. They have to organize.

  113. The quicker these sheeple fold up & break apart the better, “there’s no way to fix stupid”lol……other-Anon

  114. The Carling cemetery is UEP property so Bruce Wisan has the say in who can and can’t be buried there, not Will Jessop or Lyle Jeffs. It’s my guess that anyone who asks will be allowed to bury their children there.

    I think all the children will be claimed by their parents except possibly Virgil Roundy. Monica has a mother and other family who is out as does Carl. Rachel wasn’t ever in to the best of my understanding. Her mother is from the Williams and Johnson families, but left long ago. Jamison’s parents are apparently recently out and as there are reports of the mother being at the hospital with Nakita, I’m sure she will give her son a proper burial.

  115. Just posted anonymously on the Texas Polygamy blog, Nakita Timpson’s leg had to be amputated.

  116. oops… I should clarify that… the post was made by Anonymous… not me.

  117. “Just posted anonymously on the Texas Polygamy blog, Nakita Timpson’s leg had to be amputated. by feralfem said this on March 9, 2012 at 6:20 PM”

    This is not true !! she is doing very well ! Just saw a pic of her, and talked to my cousin who went to see her today. She has both her legs !! and hopefully will be released next week.

  118. Anoymous, Thanks you! I wondered!

  119. And that’s why I cross-post, to get verification and/or rebuttal.

  120. Scary how easy it is to get inaccurate information. Thanks to all that truthfully set us straight.

  121. On Monday March 5, 2012 large funeral was held at the meeting house with many family members traveling in from all over to pay respects. Many family members could not attend nor see their visiting family members. Alot of misplaced youth distraught, hurt feelings and resorted to partying for comfort. Bodies will not be released until coroner is done with reports, possibly by Monday.

  122. They were still alive on Monday March 5.

  123. Anon @ 1:42 am you are full of crap. PT is right. They were all still alive on Monday and there wasn’t any large funeral held. I’ve talked to several who are related to those who died and nothing has been held so far and certainly not at the meeting house. Most wouldn’t set foot in Warren Jeffs meeting house.

  124. Per the updated trib article. BTW the wind didnt start in the area until Tues morning the 6th.

    Its been updated with another article too. If people have links to the kids pics, please share.

    “The car failed to make a turn and rolled late Tuesday or early Wednesday some 20 miles south of Colorado City, Ariz., but the accident wasn’t discovered until late Wednesday afternoon, police said.”

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53675093-78/colgrove-crash-ariz-colorado.html.csp

  125. BTW is Dan Timpson the leader of CP? I know the last name is the same.

    Here is the newer article. Some sad details.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53686749-78/rachel-colgrove-ariz-timpson.html.csp

  126. No Stamp, Dan was until recently a Warrenite. His father is Alma Timpson and he has brothers over there. He’s also a brother to Will Jessop.

  127. My interpretation of Anon @ 1:42 post:

    Perhaps he/she meant that there was a funeral for SOMEONE at the meeting house on Monday the 5th, and the kids who died were “Alot of misplaced youth distraught, hurt feelings and resorted to partying for comfort.” Their “partying” took them down to the Strip Tuesday night which is where they lost their lives by Wednesday morning.

    That makes more sense to me and explains why they were “partying” down there during a school week.

  128. Yeah, perhaps thats it. Hard to have a funeral for kids running about.

    However, they thought the celebration occasion was Timpson’s Bday as compared to an impromptu wake.

  129. Right you are, Stamp. I see that in the Trib story now.

  130. Thank you feralfem for interpreting post as written. Alot of extended families were wisked in and out of Colorado City for the funeral of a man that died in Wyoming. Many family members were not allowed into the immediate area of the viewing in St. George and the funeral in the meeting house with burial in the Carling cemetary. God squad held outsiders at bay. Many youth came to town in hopes of hooking up with others, did not happen.

  131. Anon, could you say who the man was that died in Wyoming?

  132. I heard last week that Glen Steed had died but did know where

  133. Does Jamison Timpson have a young daughter?

  134. Glen Steed died February 29 in Gillette, Wyoming. Cause of death was not given. He was 59 years old.

  135. For those wishing to financially assist the families of the teens killed in the accident you may go to Wells Fargo ask for the “Roundy, Bistline, Colgrove, Timpson Holm Memorial Fund”. Also there is the “Nakita Timpson Medical Fund” for assistance with her medical bills.

    Above is from Facebook.

  136. I was told by a friend who spoke with Glen’s wife that He died of a Heart Attack in his sleep. If they had a quick funeral without family, friends, or loved ones. Shame on them, but then this is so typical of the way they operate anyway.

  137. Who was Glen’s wife?

    I was told by someone who was in the first car that they had gone out to celebrate Nakita’s 16th birthday.

  138. Not sure if Glen was in or out, but he has 4 relatively young kids.

  139. Monica and Rachael’s funerals are listed with Spillsbury Funeral Home in St. George.

    Monica Joy Bistline

    Funeral Services: Saturday, March 17, at 2:00 p.m. at El Captian High School.

    1st Visitation: Friday, March 16, from 6:00-8:00 p.m. at the Spilsbury Mortuary Chapel, 110 S. Bluff St., St. George, UT.

    2nd Visitation: Saturday, March 17, from 12:30-1:30 p.m. prior to services at the High School.

    Interment:To be announced.

    Rachael Colgrove

    Funeral Services: Sunday, March 18, at 1:00 p.m. at the Centennial Chapel in Centennial Park, AZ.

    1st Visitation: Saturday, March 17, from 6-9 p.m. at Centennial Park Chapel.

    2nd Visitation: Sunday, March 18, from 11:00 – 1:00 p.m. prior to services.

    Interment: Centennial Park Cemetery

  140. The funeral for Glen Steed was two days of viewings in St George, a third viewing at the meeting house with a funeral service in the meeting house with a service at the graveside. Over 4500 in attendance, no it was not a fast service. Many traveled from Texas, as well as many others that were working all over the United States.

  141. He was a brother to Ora, Ellen Grace and Dora Mae who were all at the Ranch. Dearly departed Babs was another sibling.

  142. The funeral for Glen Steed was not quick at all. There was two viewings at Spillsbury with a third viewing at the meeting house, followed by a full funeral service and graveside services as well with over 4500 people present. Many traveled from Texas as well as from all over the United States.

  143. So what really happens when one tries to get past the god-squad? Just curious…. I mean if someone really wanted to go to a funeral/grave sideservice, do they just say “you can’t go”. And then what? We just say ok and walk away? I don’t think so. I think if I wanted to go to a service I would go. Unless they really wanted to cause a terrible scene. But that’s just me.

  144. I’m with ya wife#2.

  145. Other funerals where outsiders were not allowed seems to me they refused by armed thugs.

  146. Wife#2 Yes, that’s exactly what happens. The “guards” at the door say “no you can’t go” and yes they would cause a scene and strong-arm you away from the entrance if you didn’t say ok and walk away as the faithful stream past you looking down their noses at you. BTDT

  147. http://www.mohavedailynews.com/articles/2012/03/11/news/local/doc4f5c652c09c94634429204.txt

    News on the crash

  148. Mmmmmmmm, what exactly is the “Redemption Ordinance”?

  149. Yesterday, I went to a cave on the AZ strip with my family. On the way there, I passed two pickup trucks loaded in the back. One had at least ten teenagers piled in the back like an army truck; the other was probably only six or seven. Don’t people ever learn?

  150. What time was it cement? I know that a bunch went out to the accident site.

  151. Some one will correct me if I am wrong…didn’t the god squad try and prevent an apostate family from burying their baby, a yr or two back. And wasn’t there an attemp to “unbury” the baby during the night and real LE had to step in?

  152. Just noted at the top of this discussion the NEW: 2 page FLDS Questionaire to determine worthiness as expected by Lyle.

  153. mc1199, you’ll find info about the baby burial you’re asking about at:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/general-discussion-45/#comment-36153

  154. mc1199, it was a Stubbs child you are thinking about. She was in a car wreck with her mother and siblings. A grave was dug and the FLDS filled in the grave and dug a new grave in a far corner of the cemetery instead of in the plot with her family.

  155. I’d love to see Warren Jeff’s response to the questionaire! Let me take a stab at it:
    Do you only think pure thoughts (No.. I spend the majority of the time thinking of all the people I want revenge against … and of course… you know my other weakness.”
    Are you saying your prayers in all you do (No)
    Are you leading a clean and moral life? (No. But I wish those prison guards would stop watching me!)
    Are you abiding the law of purity and righteous obedience in my holy law? (No.. Again. those darn prison guards!”
    Have you honored the Reformation Ordinance since receiving it? (No) “I use the internet in prison to check what the blogs are saying about me.”
    “I watch the movies the other fellas watch in prison.” “I play rock and roll on my ipod in prison.” “Darn… don’t get any vodka in prison these days.”

    Someone else can take it from here. Don’t want to get too much into his head.

  156. I’m still trying to figure out what the Reformation Ordinance is.

  157. WOW Hearing that Lyle has been ex’ed and John Wayman is in charge at the crick now

  158. If it is true all I can say is good riddance Lyle.

  159. The reformation ordinance must be an flds thing. Have never heard of it in my LDS experience.

  160. Actually, did you notice that this document refers to itsself as “The Church of Jeus Christ of Latter Day Saints”…. not… “Fundamentalist…..

  161. I wonder if anything similar was used during the first mormon Reformation during the 1850s. My guess would be the reformation ordinance was the re-baptism they’ve been doing just like they did back then.

  162. “anything similar” was in reference to the posted questionnaire.

  163. And on Lyle and Wayman, wow. Sit back and watch the fireworks I guess.

  164. yes, it may go back to an earlier practice (1800s) in the LDS Church. The questions are nothing like the questions for a current LDS temple recommend interview.

    John Wayman has the money, maybe money is thicker than blood.

  165. Isn’t John Wayman the one who wrote a check in the courtroom for Kearney before Kearney would step up and represent Warren?

  166. Here’s a suggestion for Warren, Lyle, Wilie, William, Winston, et al. Stand up and be accountable for your wrong actions and take your licks. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/harold-camping-admits-hes-wrong_n_1335232.html like Camping is.

  167. The “Reformation Ordinance” refers to the re-baptisms required/done around the end of 2010.

  168. janet said: “did you notice that this document refers to itsself as “The Church of Jeus Christ of Latter Day Saints”…. not… “Fundamentalist…..”

    “Fundamentalist” only refers to the legal / formal corporation of the church…. and of course the media always differentiates that way… especially at the insistence of the mainstream LDS church.

    FLDS have ALWAYS only ever referred to themselves internally as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.” They consider themselves the one and only true church. Ordinances and blessings are always stated that way too. Never is the word “Fundamentalist” used in their ecclesiastical administrations.

  169. Tell me if this is right, EKJay, but I believe most of the traditional teaching materials have been pilfered (not the right word in my opinion but I didn’t like “appropriated” either) from the LDS church. I think most of the sects and independents draw from those materials historically for their teachings and meetings. On account of “this will someday be the head and not the tail of the church.”

  170. Correct, 3C… but their terminology would more likely be “kept” rather than “pilfered” or “appropriated.”

  171. Any further confirmation on whether Lyle is out? sans wives and children? repent from afar?

  172. Ah, much better words, EKJay. Given my family history, I was uncomfortable with both.

  173. I’m signing off. Been a huge week. But I note that Walton hasn’t weighed in since a while.

  174. Probably fishin’.

  175. Ooops, try to forgive the Idaho grammar.

  176. Please continue on Discussion 74 – In Memoriam

    —- Thanks, ADMIN

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/discussion-74-in-memoriam/

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