Shakeup in Short Creek

The following documents are:

1) Temporary Restraining Order issued by Judge Kennedy, restraining the FLDS from interfering with Richard Holm’s use and enjoyment of UEP property for which he holds an Occupancy Agreement;

2)  Complaint filed on behalf of Richard Holm against the FLDS and requesting a restraining order and injunction against the FLDS thugs who took over his property and changed the locks and barricaded the property against Richard; and

3)  Exhibits attached to Richard Holm’s complaint — pay particular attention to the letter from Brock Belknap (Washington County Attorney) to Jonathan Roundy, FLDS Police Chief, as this letter directs local FLDS law enforcement to enforce the UEP Occupancy Agreements according to their terms and give them the same effect as a lease or deed.

We will post a thorough commentary on these documents and the recent shake-up in Short Creek a little later this evening, but for now we wanted to get these documents posted so you can read from the primary sources yourselves.

You can also read about this lastest dust-up in the news:

Deseret News:  here

Salt Lake Tribune:  here and here

Utah Fox 13:  here

Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate: here 


~ by FLDS TEXAS on December 22, 2011.

468 Responses to “Shakeup in Short Creek”

  1. Love the letter written to Marshall Roundy telling him to do his job.

  2. Yeah, wonder if it will have any effect. As I’ll mention in my commentary later – when it was initially reported that the FLDS thugs were trespassing on Richard’s property, Jonathan Roundy responded and told the FLDS that according to the documents the FLDS were trespassing. That’s quite a departure from the way Jonathan Roundy has responded to similar incidents in the past.

  3. Here’s KSL take on school dispute, watch video, interesting.

    This will force the FLDS controlled LE in “short creek” have to choose between the law or following Lyle the larcenous & that felonious profit Warren Jeffs. If they choose to follow the “profit” the will insure their own destruction, decertification.

  4. The most interesting thing are the comments at end of KSL video, appears the Warranites are planing to abandon “short creek” with many on their way to YFZ. Hope sheriff David Doran is keeping up with this story, it’s about to land on his doorstep.

  5. Good to see that the flds disregard of the law is being recognized by other people including judges and LE..

    from the KSL article:

    “”What I’m concerned with is the lack of respect for the court, particularly the 10th Circuit,” the judge said Thursday. “It’s very distressing that the court, that the rule of law seems to be eroded in this area.”

  6. There was no respect to begin with, so how can it “erode”?

  7. Exactly, EJay. The judge could have more accurately said “I’m dismayed that I have encountered a theocracy which does not recognize the sovereignty of the state or federal government .”

  8. The letter by Belnap sets a mousetrap for Roundy.

    It is criminal to interfere, directly or indirectly with the Occupancy agreements per the court order pending the 10th’s decision.

    This should fix it going forward until that time…. If Roundy or others propose to interfere, I hope Utah and AZ perform follow through and decertify the cops and bring in the Sheriffs.

    Sounds like they need real LE there anyway. The judges sitting on the 10th must be scratching their heads over this cluster.

  9. Not only has respect for the law long ago eroded (ahem, the local and State LE have kinda helped in that regard up to now) but so has common sense.

    KSL reports that the flds pulpit word is telling them they will be leaving soon…

    Now, is that on the magical space ship, or they heading out to other lands like CO / SD / TX … ?

    Regardless, isnt it counterproductive to fight over this building, or that building, if your lord and puppet master is telling you on the other hand to abandon the dusty place?

  10. But it is much like the Big Sandy River where former friends Hatfield and McCoy eventually took up arms over each other.

    In another WTF moment, Bill Paxton of Big Love fame now joins Kevin Costner in the History Channel’s portrayal of this old feud.

    Maybe in a few years he act in a new show, “Big Love, Bigger Feud”…







  11. This was posted over in the General Discussion #68 thread but I didn’t want it to get lost and it probably pertains to this stuff:

    There is a ‘special’ priesthood holders meeting set for Saturday the 24th at 7pm at the LSJ Meetinghouse. All preisthood holders have been ordered to attend.
    These ‘special’ meetings always start some major shift or change in internal church policies and sometimes includes a mass ex’ing.
    Anonymous said this on December 23, 2011 at 10:50 AM

  12. My guess is they need a staging place for the mass exit and wanted the school to be used for it. Maybe local LE is finally seeing the handwritting on the wall and decided to keep the job becuase they won’t be going anywhere.

    I am surprised to hear that folks need places to stay – who is kicking them out of their homes??? Wisan probably is not. So why do they need a place to stay? Can’t the shelters help them get back into their own homes with a Wisan lease?

  13. I think a lot of those leaving are teenagers and young 20 somethings.

  14. Seems like a good time for the FBI, and the State po po to make a serious presence and the local Sheriff to act as security guards till New Years – and probably beyond.

  15. The people who are leaving are done. They will now face a world that is
    unknown to them. A world they have been taught to fear and judge as wicked. The Kids fall hard, I did. It took me years before I could deal with the feelings and experiences I had. The safety net needs to be reinforced and primed for an exodus of kids. I watch them come out and pop up on facebook. There is a Group called ” outies ” where there are several hundred of them chatting and sharing among themselves. There are a few
    of them who are really angry. The Girls are transformed overnight from their dress and manners of the flds. They are hard to recognize in a few short weeks of leaving there. YET the issues and abuses live inside of them. Many have confided in me their stories. Most of their issues revolve around an incident of molestation. Not just sexual but spiritual break-in.
    These girls try hard to act normal but are highly codependent. This mental illness makes a person robotic clingy unsure of everything and willing to do anything to secure themselves. They will attach to whatever shows up.
    What usually shows up is their counterpart in the dance, a fully functioning abuser and narcissistic male. They then jump in bed and experience as much sex as their time will allow …..trying to sooth themselves. The children that come from these unions are popping out like rabbits. There are ex creeker girls who have multiple children with multiple partners and are still out there trying to feel normal but drowning in depression guilt and a growing feeling of shame. A self fulfilling event started at the tender age of 9 or 10 years old is now hurtling through space and time becoming a warning to all who gets involved. I AM GOING TO HELL… STAND BACK!

    We need to reach out hard to these children and mothers. They are receiving welfare for their meager existence with no real healing or understanding for their issues.

  16. I agree that we need to reach out and help them, but the question is how.

  17. I’ve heard sheeple are leaving Warren’s group
    , some are ending up with William’s group , & some younger people are leaving all together , If that’s true , maybe we will see the end of warren’s empire ! IDK if Bruce Wisan can’t get the flds sheeple to make payment agreements we may see more sheeple moving to places of refuge , remember warren cursed short creek , if the whole things falling apart , maybe that’s what needs to happen , the situations there have been reaching critical mass for many years & have accelerated under warren’s empire , only time will tell what happens ?????? other-Anon

  18. I think we are at critical mass right now and will continue there until Dec 31. I think that is the make or break date for Lyle and company and then they will get the hell out of dodge.

  19. Anon 2:41…
    You are describing the social (one newspaper article called it ‘humanitarian’) crisis and issues that I tried years ago to explain to anyone who would listen. Back then I could only speculate about specific precursors to the kind of potential fallout we’re seeing now. I know what you say is true. Been there; done that.
    hop on soapbox

    In that area and environment, there aren’t enough people, there isn’t enough money, enough resources and particularly there aren’t enough counselors – ones who have the necessary training – required to successfully transition all the ” outies ” or to deal with the magnitude of a major exodus into mainstream. Old or young – I don’t care what the age – but especially the young, generally don’t have the education, the financial wherewithal or the social experience to hit the ground running once they pop out of their cocoons. They all have to learn and mature quickly to choose to become fully functioning, RESPONSIBLE ADULTS. Otherwise the default choice is shame and failure – and even suicide. We’ve already seen too many fall through the cracks.

    Warren can predict all kinds of tidal waves all over the world, but he and his lying cohorts are creating one right there on the UT/AZ border. The ship is sinking. And if the elite abandon the place and go to hidden refuges, those areas will have their own social and financial problems to deal with.

    There can’t be high enough praise for the several help organizations and individuals that are currently trying their damnedest to help these escapees.

    Having said all that, and sadly, I don’t have a workable solution. So much depends on the willing. I hope many can hang in the Creek and let William and Wisan help transition them there. Otherwise, society is in for a rude awakening.

    I don’t mean to sound like the voice of doom, but I KNOW the pitfalls. And I do know that keeping sweet in the face of tyranny is not the answer! Internalizing the shame, the confusion and the damage is a recipe for failure and more damage. I also hope some will rise up with their evidence and sue, sue, sue! There is something to be said for the therapeutic and cathartic joy of pursuing justice.

    Ultimately, living well is the best revenge. There are many who are quietly doing just that by taking back their personal power.

    hop off soapbox

  20. Amen to that – I dont care who you are, those are well spoken words to be taken seriously.

  21. Merry CHRISTmasand Happy New Year to all. It has been an interesting and turbulent year for the flds and 2012 promises more of the same.

  22. Here’s a link on an excellent blog written by a person who left polygamy.

    Be sure to read the bio on blog, well written.

  23. Bruce Wisan wins and FLDS loses, property to be sold for delinquent taxes, IMO this sure to speed up abandonment of “short creek” by the Warranite faction.

  24. The delayed EXODUS is still for only the Chosen/Elect. I presume that Lyle Jeffs and leaders are only issuing ‘Golden Tickets’ to the real ‘True Blievers’ and the rabble will be cut-off and left with the forsaken apostates of the Greater St George area. The tightened control of those that EXODUS is a concerning escalation more in line with Warren’s past plans and practices. This seems to be ‘Worshipping from Afar’ in reverse, instead of the apostate being given the message to move away, the Chosen/Elect are being told to move away to Pringle, Mancos, Bonners Ferry, Pony Springs and Eldorado. I expect other enclaves have been prepared for the EXODUS and this winnowing of the membership gives the FLDS Church leadership a more concerning level of control and grip upon these Chosen/Elect.

    Local LE in these new enclave areas will be confronting a more select, concentrated and fanatical FLDS follower than the more common Hildale/Colorado City variety. Swelling the enclaves with hidden and unknown residents will not be possible. The deceptive practices, covert behaviors and clandestine models have been recorded and disclosed to the Public and Press, the narrowed options on this EXODUS will be far harder to hide or disguise.

  25. Maybe Lyle will announce the end times have arrived, because they are bouncing checks?

    But why would this end times be different than the last five. Oh, yeah, der leader is in der prison.

    So for him the fun hath ended indeed.

    Now, take an arrow to the knee for Warren, and be proud of it!

    Holey lands in South Dakota await! Gatherith thine snow chains!

  26. The amphitheater at YFZ resembles an old indian ruin – Pueblo Bonito in Chaco Canyon.

    One of a very few half moon shaped buildings. This one is much more massive though than that puny pimple in Texas.

    About half way down the page is the picture.

    or here

  27. If/when anyone else flees CC/Hildale can Wisen open the properties up to anyone who can pay? Do you think people will move there? Are there enough business [most now closed, I would guess] to support newcomers or for people to start new ones and make a go of them??
    And I was thinking about what caJIM said…I thought YFZ was just for the most ‘holy’ and ‘true believer’ and not for the ‘riff-raff’ left behind. Would any of them even be welcome there?

  28. You have to remember the sheeple have been taught the end of the world’s coming , so I think very few will make payments on their property tax & rent , if after 30 days Wisan decides to have Utah/ Washington county police or Mohave County police physically remove them ,who knows? IDK if the fundie police will take any action , who knows , all I know is I pay my rent & property taxes here , some people are paying $ 100 in rent , others pay $ 150 in rent , past that idk whose paying rent / property taxes , $ 100 – $ 150 is cheap for rent rent in this area , I can imagine it being a lot more around surrounding areas ? Who knows what will happen idk ? Time & future circumstances / situations will tell ?? other-Anon

  29. Maybe what the Crick needs is a Jamba Juice!!!

  30. Merry Christmas everyone !

  31. Yes, Merry Christmas to all.

  32. Merry Christmas!

    And a prayer sent for all the children denied the joys of this season.

  33. Stamp, yes – a prayer for all the children and the young disillusioned wives…

  34. Victoria Reynolds of the “Polygamist’s Daughter” blog has posted a new entry :

  35. Any word on what the Christmas Eve priesthood meeting was about?

  36. Who knows ? maybe the Christmas Eve priesthood meeting was a strategy session for whose moving among the “elite ” to places of refuge ? or maybe Lyle has exed more men out , remember the sheeple are interrogated about their sex life , by the sex squad or maybe some men can’t come up with $ 5000 a month for Warren’s appeal ? WSJ thinks the prison walls will tumble down & he will be free , remember were seeing a looney tune in action , he has many delusions in his mind , which to him are real ! …………other-Anon

  37. Some information here.

    “FLDS must be ‘chosen’ by year’s end or be destroyed, Jeffs says.”

    “Jeffs personally spoke to the congregation from prison on Christmas weekend.”

  38. Matthew Waller also has a story today in the San Angelo paper about the YFZ ranch and other “places of refuge”.

  39. Hopefully, someone will drop by and tell us what happened. I just can’t imagine sitting in your house with the ‘sex squad’ quizzing you and/or your husband about who is doing what to whom and when…and now all must stop! Just how much carp do you put up with for this group?! I guess it’s difficult to see your life crumbling about you when you have your eyes shut, your fingers in your ears and are screaming LA LA LA LA LA LA LA at the top of your lungs!

  40. Need help from admin of this blog, if you see this please contact me via my e-mail address, need to forward e-mail received from person who operates polygamybegone blog.

  41. KSL report said there is a new FLDS property located near Albuquerque.

    They’re also reporting that the TDCJ is looking into whether Warren violated any terms of his prison sentence with that reported call to the Phood meeting.

  42. Anon, he is supposed to have a list of 10 (friends and family) who he can call and it has to be a landline and the call can not be forwarded. Maybe they will revoke his phone privileges over it.

  43. I wondered about that. I thought I’d read, a ways back, that his phone priviledges were highly restrictive. So, a taped ‘lecture’ strung together via some of his 10 friends???

  44. They are very phone and tech savvy there in the Crick. Amazing what they can do and have done. They do have their surreptitious ways of patching phone calls through – shall we say – various secret passages. I hope the TDJC does follow through with their “looking into.”

    Really, I think the gummint should put some of those tech-savvy guys to good use in the CIA. Get ’em outta the Crick.

  45. All of his calls are taped as he is making them so let me assure you that TDCJ knows exactly what he said and who he called. If he called the meeting house and not one of his 10 friends then maybe they will take away his phone privileges. (Wouldn’t that be a shame) or even delete Lyle as a visitor/phone buddy.

  46. If the call was patched, forwarded or somehow otherwise sent to a phone other than the one being called it would be a violation of the terms of phone calls from TDCJ.

  47. Who do the TDCJ think they are fooling?

    Jeffs is getting out all those nasty grams, and it would only take a taped phone call to pass his verbal messages to the cult too.

    Its not rocket science. They need to lock him down or just consider him fair game to screw with peoples minds. So far they have been giving him full reign to do whatever the hell he pleases.

    Havent seen that change much.

  48. Well it appears the KSL report tells us what the special meeting was about, would agree with ejay point about “FLDS” being tech savy. And PT is correct about the phone privileges, I do hope the prisons warden punishes Warren by taking away the phone. In any case since prison phone calls are recorded, the old any thing you say can and will be used against you in a court of law applies.

    Scary thing is what’s the end game after the exodus when the Warranites are at YFZ.

  49. Perhaps its Texas’ revenge – allow Jeffs to call the peeps back home in UT / AZ and cause panic and mayhem in the streets of Mayberry.

    That serves them right!

  50. The thing is that if he called a legit number on his list then it wouldn’t have been looked twice at, but now that it is known that it went to a PH meeting, that’s another thing and if that’s the case then Texas can do something about that. My hope is that the number he called was Lyle’s and Lyle patched it through so Lyle can be suspended from the visitor’s list.

  51. Here’s the D-News version of story.

    Nothing on story from SLTrib yet. Hope folks in Eldorado are keeping up with this, as it seems to effect them.

  52. Warren telling them to be chosen or they’ll be destroyed ? Go back into 19th century history & read up on the “Milllerites , in upstate New York a man named William Miller believed he knew when the “rapture” would happen , he told his sheeple to buy “rapture clothes” which were made by his sheeple , then on a certain in October 1843 , to be ready to meet the Savior & be raptured , it didn’t happen , so he told his sheeple to be ready a year from that date & the Savior would show up then , which turned out to be a beautiful day , but no Savior & no Rapture ? His church was called the Church of 1843 & 1844 , or to most of his sheeple & other people as “The Great Disappointment” , some of his sheeple started 2 churches afterwards , Seventh Day Adventists & Jehovah’s Witness ,, as 1 man said recently if your going to say the end of the worlds coming don’t be specific , be vague & say “sometime in the future” , too bad William Miller & Harold Camping couldn’t figure that out , sometimes the simplest thing is to say nothing , Warren hasn’t learned that ……LOL ….other-Anon

  53. I’m worried about the “…. or be destroyed” part. I hope no one does anything drastic based on something they heard him say on a phone call.

    So I don’t know much about Revelations – when does the 1000 years of peace start? Is there mass destruction then 1000 years of peace or visa versa?

    Prayers for the children should continue.

  54. Love the photo on the front page of the Eldorado Success.

    Shows a facial expression that matches his demeanor better than his “I am at peace” look.

  55. I think the 1000 of peace follows the apocalyptic destructions.

  56. saw this on Twitter today via a link. Hoping it is not accurate prediction for December 31st. Interesting comment about a film from Warren played at a meeting:

  57. Watergirl that was interesting comment, the blogger at that site linked back to the KSL article posted earlier on the TEXASFLDS blog.

    Also on the KSL website, that other felonious profit Brian David Mitchell has been spouting off end of the world stuff, he’s beginning to sound like Warren Jeffs. From article:
    ” Mitchell believes he didn’t do anything wrong and that he believes he was only doing what God told him to do.”

    “He doesn’t feel that he will spend the rest of his life in prison because he feels that the Lord will intervene and this world will not be around in 30 years,”

    Got a revelation for Warren & Brain, dudes you all never see the outside of a prison for as long as you live.

  58. I posted below :

    Here’s the D-News version of story.

    Nothing on story from SLTrib yet. Hope folks in Eldorado are keeping up with this, as it seems to effect them.

    Used the incorrect link for the D-News version, here’s the correct one:–but-for-what.html

  59. I don’t know whether this belongs on this thread or the general discussion. You’re all going to think I’m over estimating my academic prowess (and I probably am), but I seriously thought that I had read every major historical article ever written about the cousins in Short Creek. This 1937 one totally escaped me until now. I don’t know the reputation of Liberty Magazine, but this article is really different for the time period. It even mentions that some of the fundy sects required witnesses of the consummation of marriages for sealing to actually take. There is no other internet source for the journal that I can find except the following:

  60. Its obvious thats what Warren was doing in the Temple, and so it looks like the practice goes way back. How far would be a good question.

    Brigham? Beyond?

  61. “You shall not uncover the nudity of your father, or the nudity of your mother, she is your mother; You shall not uncover her nudity . You shall not uncover the nudity of your father’s wife: it is your father’s nudity” (Lev.18:7-8 Para.).

    OOPS, Warren you forgot this passage, you werent supposed to have sex with your father’s wife / wives.

    Repent or spend life in prison! Well, you will spend life in prison anyway!

  62. We will just have to wait & see if Warren / Lyle’s sheeple actually follow them to their places of refuge , if that happens ” good riddance ” it needs to happen to get short creek more open to other types of people ! ! other-Anon


    Good article.

  64. Well here’s the Trib article on Warren’s phone sermon:

    Interesting, lots of comments.

  65. Both great articles, thanks PT & AT.

  66. I believe this is reaching critical mass. Granted CPS is an uwannted govt resource for these families, but isn’t it better to be safe than sorry and rescue who we can? I live in Ohio and would gladly take in a child or two

  67. This 1937 one totally escaped me until now. I don’t know the reputation of Liberty Magazine, but this article is really different for the time period. It even mentions that some of the fundy sects required witnesses of the consummation of marriages for sealing to actually take. There is no other internet source for the journal that I can find except the following:

    Third Cousin said this on December 28, 2011 at 11:00 PM

    TC the operator of the mormonfundamentalism site is an active LDS church member, what he posts I have found to be accurate IMO.

    The website is a gold mine on history of fundy polygamists, read all the articles, site was originally aimed at LDS members thinking of leaving LDS church for fundy groups, intended to show how bad polygamy is, don’t do it!

    Read the introduction on sites homepage-he’s quite direct and to the point.

  68. Here’s more on operator of website “mornonfundamentalism”

    Dudes has guts as he doesn’t mind stepping on toes, even those in his own church.

  69. I posted this in the other Discussion thread. I really belongs here. Am I confused or what?

    But what caught my eye was this little statistic about being one of only 85 in the huge Texas inmate population of 156,000:

    “Jeffs is in protective custody, among the most restrictive forms of imprisonment in Texas. He’s alone in his cell daily and isn’t involved in any work programs. Protective custody inmates, and there are only 85 of them in the 156,000-inmate Texas prison system, are isolated because of serious, direct or proven threats against them.”

    I think he needs a cell-mate to keep an eye on him and report his wayward behavior. Somehow there doesn’t seem to be enough punishment for him. He’s still trying to mess with Texas while he obliterates his followers’ human rights.

  70. A Texan, you are right about the Mormon fundamentalism site: it is a good one. I’ve referred to it often.

    The chart at the bottom of the index page is quite accurate. But some of the historic information throughout the site is not 100% correct from an FLDS standpoint. As a practicing Mormon, Mr. Hales does have some strong biases, which I’m not knocking. For the most part, he’s pretty even-handed. Just pointing out that some bias is there and that some of his information doesn’t jive with what is understood within pre-Warren FLDS history.


  72. Texas prosecutors file to delay Warren Jeffs’ bigamy trial

  73. The above articles show how smart the Warranites are. No one ever accused Warren the felonious profit & his brother Lyle the larcenous of being Smart. If they were smart, they would be in all the trouble they are in.

    I’m told that under Texas law criminal organizations are subject to seizure of assets by the state. It’s only a matter of time before Texas declares the FLDS to be a criminal organization. The state will then become the legal owner of what is known as YFZ and all other FLDS assets in Texas. The state can then sale YFZ or keep it, converting the site into a prison for the TDCJ.

    Perhaps someone should suggest the above course of action to AG Abbot.

  74. I think you should send him a letter A Texan and tell him just what you wrote here.

    It will be interesting to see if it was Lyle he called Christmas day and how exactly the message was delivered to the sheeple. No matter how it was done, it violated the TDCJ’s rules. Warren should be barred from the phone and whoever he called should be banned from his visiting list.

    On another note, it seems that Leroy Johnson Steed has been moved to a TDCJ unit in Abilene. Hope he is able to follow the rules better than Warren.

  75. I think im with alot of apostates in hoping my family doesn’t get chosen. Tomorrow is the so called D-Day. If I dont recieve a few phone calls I will be a little let down. I can’t speak for anyone else but I see this as a possible oppertunity to be able to get at least some of my family back.

  76. PK

    Hope the best for you and your family – I’m sure you dont want them shuttled off somewhere to fate unknown.

    I expect this is just a bunch of bluffing by Jeffs, I dont see all the ‘chosen’ FLDS up and leaving this weekend anyway.

    Besides all those interviews is too much work for Lyle, he is much better at getting orders to ex people and then driving around booting guys out.

    This business of interviewing everyone is going to give him a brain burn.

  77. Here’s hoping you and others get phone calls PK.

  78. Watch as they begin to remove the young girls from the town to these other locations. Girls 13 and younger and a few that are older that Lyle deems to be pure of heart. They are losing a lot of the teenage girls 14-18 from town to the outside. Warren is going to mandate removal of the younger ones to “save them”. The reason for all the cloak and dagger and secrecy is that these girls are most likely going to be moved to other locations without either legal guardian present. This is the primary reason that they are requiring all the rebabtism and promises and such. They have to know that the parents will keep the secret and allow the girls to be removed from the town of Colorado City/Hildale.



  81. I read this keeping in mind Warren’s brand of tyrannical leadership – right out of the rule book:

  82. Warren has some attorney who is at his beck and call. He filed a Pro Se Revelation with the Court threatening the Judge and he signed it himself. That tells me that he has someone who came and got his notes, typed them up for him, and then brought the document back to be signed.

    Regular visitors can’t bring anything in to the prisoner and the prisoner can’t give them anything. No exchange. All you can take into the prison visiting room is a clear baggie of quarters to spend at the vending machine and your drivers license which you give to the person overseeing the visit. The prisoner can’t even get up and go to the vending machine. He has to tell you what he would like and then the visitor has to go buy it for him.

  83. Anon 7:20: Watch as they begin to remove the young girls from the town to these other locations.

    Heavenly comfort wives-in-waiting.

  84. The good news is they are going to be waiting a loooong time.

  85. PK – truly wishing you lots of phone calls. Fingers crossed.

  86. From the SLTrib even more threats from Warren the felonious profit.

    You know ole Warren maybe you are like Brian David Mitchell, pretend you are stark raving mad and you might get a get out of jail free card. Hey Warren, the authorities are on to your silly plan, they saw thru that felonious profit Mitchell & they see thru you Warren.

  87. We can only hope PT.

  88. I ate at The Marry Wives Cafe on Dec. 26 while driving through to Park City, Utah from Arizona. I am fascinated with the “Sheeple”, Warren, Lyle, Lost Boys, “Being Sweet” the Whole Thing. How can someone like me be of service to any of these teenage children who need refuge? My husband and I are not Mormon but we are good, kind, warm, successful hard working people with a stable home in Scottsdale, Arizona. I have never written on a blog but I am feeling compelled to reach out. I feel powerless on prayers alone. I can’t imagine the pain and fear these children are feeling right now. Their doomsday is quickly approaching… We are planning on stopping through CC/ Hilldale on Jan 5 and eating at the Cafe again. Is there anything I can do to help? Compelled to reach out.

  89. AJ

    Here are a couple good ones

    The “Safety Net” is just a vacuum of dollars, however these folks have an efficient hand in helping.

    And of course The Hope Org

    Both are on the blogroll but here for your easy reference.

  90. A Texan

    Whoa, that last one was signed by Jesus Christ himself!

    I think that’s a first.

    Warren errr “his lord” also complains that its his Constitutional right (middle one) and that he is telling Warren to “answer them nothing” (last one) — he he he.

    That always sets him up for failure.

    Anyhoot, the “manifesto” that any preggers means exmo is pretty funny.

    I guess the State of Utah couldnt put a stop to polygamy but Warren can?

  91. The “No Sex manifesto” or NSM made MSM

  92. Below appeared in a article in the Trib a bit of a humor piece, with multiple choice answers. My answer all of them are correct.

    In May, Brian David Mitchell was sentenced to life in prison for the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart. How will Mitchell spend his time?

    A) Annoying his cellmate by singing incessant atonal hymns.

    B) Trading creepy pen pal manifestos with Warren Jeffs.

    C) Beard grooming.

  93. D) Constant masturbation.

  94. “D” seems to be a constant activity of the incarcerated.

    I am really scared for the children of Short Creek. This article says that when girls are dropped off for their “Worthiness Interviews” that they are nowhere to be found when their parents come to pick them up again.


    These 2 paragraphs have me really worried:

    But groups that work with those in Utah’s polygamous communities said some of those who have been re-baptized into the faith have simply vanished.

    “Parents that have dropped off their girls for interviews, they go to pick them up and the girls have been sent off to a ‘safe place of refuge’ is what they’re being told,” said Tonia Tewell, the executive director of the group Holding Out Help. “And the families haven’t been deemed worthy or unworthy yet. But they have no idea where their children are disappearing to.”

  97. Sounds like Sheriff Doran needs to keep a eye out for children traveling without parents or legal guardians. Suspect many will be arriving at YFZ,. They could easily be used as pawns or hostages to try to force release of Warren Jeffs, Ole Lyle could threaten to have them drink the koolaide Jim Jones style or force confrontation with LE using children as human shields in attempt to free Jeffs.

    The massive construction projects at YFZ show that the FLDS still attach great importance to YFZ in what ever there end game is.

    Yes PT you should be worried, everyone in Texas needs to worried. This stuff is plain scary!

  98. They’d be nuts to send the young girls to the YFZ under so much scrutiny. I bet they get waylaid in one of the other states or houses of hiding for a while. Although there is the deadline and all. With the Four Horsemen about to ride.

  99. But what timezone will they ride in 3C? It obviously isn’t Eastern Time because that deadline just passed.

  100. They’ve still got almost 2 more hours out here.

  101. “D) Constant masturbation.
    Betty said this on December 31, 2011 at 3:32 PM

    “D” seems to be a constant activity of the incarcerated.
    mc1199 said this on December 31, 2011 at 3:53 PM”

    Warren has always forbidden engaging in that activity. He’s just suffering for his people by taking care of it FOR them until their faith is strong enough to make the walls of Powledge fall down.

  102. From what I’ve heard, Warren is working on perfecting “D” for the flock. He practices frequently so it will be perfect. Sure is sweet of him to take one for the team like that.

    In other news, 17 minutes until 2012 in Warrens time zone.

  103. Is the Day of Rapture over?
    What now?

  104. Has anyone heard where they are taking these kid’s yet?

    YFZ? Or some other safe house?

  105. I haven’t heard of a mass of vehicles going in and out at the Ranch. I know there are people watching so I think we would hear if they had brought there to Texas. My guess is either Colorado or SD.

  106. That’s what I thought too PT, YFZ would be to conspicuous right now

  107. I think the sun just came up in Short Creek.

    No rapture. Warren was foiled again!

    So lots of them loaded up in Dodges, Flooreds and Chebies and pretended there was a rapture, big Whoop.

    Call it the “Chevy Chase Vacation – Rapture 2012”

  108. Shall we gather at the Crick, the beautiful, beautiful Crick

    Sing it with me!!

    Shall we gather at the Crick …

  109. The Dirty Dozen are wishin they were at the Crick…. Instead of their little cell o steel kingdoms, in those big Texas prisons.

  110. Is there confirmation of an exodus of the faithful?

  111. PT , you have to remember Warren / Lyle also have places of refuge in Nevada , Idaho , Beryl , UT & Bountiful , BC , Canada & recently near Albuquerque , who knows what other refuges they have that we don’t know about besides Texas , CO or SD ? Could be more than we think ? other-Anon

  112. If this it true that children conceived “improperly” are considered sons and daughters of perdition, can you image the horror of a six year old child being taught they can’t be saved and will have to be discarded as soon as possible?

  113. Isn’t there an upcoming trial, January I think, for WSJ? Or has it been rescheduled or postponed? Does anyone have contact with Sam Brower? Maybe he has insider news regarding the movement of children and to where they are moved . If there is a trial, it should be interesting to see who from the flock shows up

  114. The prosecutor has requested the current trial setting be vacated. Since there are no states in line who want him, the law of detainer no longer applies. Besides, he says he doesn’t have an attorney, even though some attorney is sure burning the midnight oil doing some typing for him.

  115. Anon said: Warren / Lyle also have places of refuge in Nevada , Idaho , Beryl , UT & Bountiful , BC , Canada …

    I thought they broke ties with Bountiful…or was that just Warren? Didn’t Winston fall into disfavor and get ex’d? Or, is there someone else in Bountiful who would take/hide the girls?

  116. Unless the parents object to children/young girls being taken without their consent – and object to LE not controlled by Warren/Lyle then there really isn’t anything LE or anyone else can do about it can they? Unless LE goes after the parents for child endangerment for letting them go on a “church” trip. That is really the whole problem since the beginning – and the cycle continues.

  117. Anonymous said this on January 1, 2012 at 3:07 PM

    this is from Watergirl.

  118. MC1199, The Bountiful group split when Winston lost favor. He kept part and part stayed loyal to Warren, including Winston’s brother Mac.

  119. That’s right, I’d forgotten. I hope the RCMP are still keeping tabs on them ..and .maybe notice a few new faces…without proper papers…suddenly showing up for a long ‘visit’ and no parents.

  120. Are there ‘eyes’ watching the different cities, compounds monitoring the coming and going of residents /people? I would hope that since the debacle of WSJ, etc., LE/FBI, etc., would keep an eye on large groups of young people being moved around. Maybe I am just being naive ….

  121. A well written article by a survivor of polygamy on how to deal with the emotional issue of leaving groups like the FLDS, sort of a mini survivors manual.

    From article:

    “Leaving Polygamy is like being hit by a bus

    You are probably an emotional wreck! No one would expect someone hit by a bus to jump up, dust themselves off and say: “I’M OK”. You are NOT OK – at least not yet. It will take some time before you can be OK. Just living through today is enough for now. When we left polygamy we went through that same struggle. You can too. I believe in you!”

    IMO well written by someone who has been there.

  122. “No phones

    No sex

    No motor cars

    Not a single luxury!”

  123. I am wondering how Betty, Carolyn’s daughter is doing. All the recent events must have been hard on her.

  124. I doubt it. Hasn’t she been thoroughly indoctrinated in the FLDS dogma?

    All of this must seem as Heaven on Earth to her.

  125. She still isnt worthy though. I think they just keep her for PR purposes. It will clue in before long.

  126. I disagree. You obviously don’t know these (FLDS) people.

  127. Hey Ariel, if you still read here, please check your email.

  128. The latest news from Fox13:

    As many as 1,000 may be exiled from the FLDS Church,0,1303339.story

  129. PILOT just posted more pics.. the FLDS head quarters of Jack Daniels Inc. on Ranch Rd. 2596 and more progress on an auditorium of some kind, and a tower with 360 degree cameras.

  130. From the above story:

    “We’d like to see families stay together. We’d like to see people living there in the houses. They do not have to leave,” Bruce Wisan said. “I’d like to get the word out that if the church says you have to leave the community, you don’t. The church does not control the real estate.”

  131. What is the weather like in Colorado City in late February – I am thinking of taking a trip there while I’m in Las Vegas ..

  132. 2 days past the supposed Rapture. Has anyone heard what is going on? Are people leaving in the middle of the night with the children? Are authorities putting a little pressure on the FLDS by a heightened presence? Can anyone do anything to help the kids and teens that want to leave? It breaks my heart watching the Sheeple and feeling helpless to intervene.

  133. What’s the weather like in Short Creek in late February ? Could be cold ,lately we have cold mornings until around 10 or 11:00 AM usually warms up after that until 6:00 PM , bring a coat with you , might be rainy or snowy , right now it’s a dry winter with cold mornings 7 cool to cold evenings after 10:00 PM …. Next does anybody know for sure if WSJ / Lyle has a place of refuge for the elect sheeple near Albuquerque & whats the name of it ?? other-Anon

  134. Thanks Other – Anon

  135. I’ve heard rumors of something near Albuquerque, but it was just a house in hiding, not a full fledged refuse like YFZ and Pringle.

  136. LOL, PT, I like your “full fledged refuse” (even though I think you meant refuge). Thanks for the giggle.

  137. Excellent work, thanks pilot. With the security cameras etc at YFZ, they must be getting a bit paranoid.
    And the auditorium for the worship of Warren’s statue appears to be moving on. Of course it could be a mausoleum for Warren’s body, ole Lyle wouldn’t want his brother to end up at Peckerwood Hill Cemetery in Huntsville,Texas would he!

    And for those who are unaware, Peckerwood Hill Cemetery is where Texas buries inmates who die while in the prison. In Texas inmates are often referred to as Peckerwoods, that right Warren, boy you is a peckerwood!

  138. One of the Allred brothers oversaw a house of hiding in or near Albuquerque when Warren was on the run.

    The area was also used as a meeting spot where drivers and transportees were sometimes shuffled.

    The Allred brother was also used as a phone switch.

  139. I actually meant refuse.

  140. Anon 3:24 PM

    Well, she hasnt been married off, she is an old maid now. True, they have been distracted, but there isnt any indication there was any rush to marry off this “independent thinking woman”…

    Whether she clues in or not is another matter – I would have long ago, but it seems like she likes being led by that ring in her nose regardless of the harms.

    Her mom was soooooo right.. Maybe she is still rebelling.

  141. The Allred brother was also used as a phone switch.

    Anonymous said this on January 2, 2012 at 11:11 PM

    Maybe that’s how they did the Warren’s sermon from the prison cell, without the prison officials knowing what was going on.

  142. Memo to Warren: There’s a leak in your system and whenever you do something it’s going to be reported and get back to the guards at the prison. A newsflash to you is that they don’t like being made to look like fools, so if you have any brain cells left, now would be a good time to start using them.

  143. Will there be more people exed out , who knows ? I do know those flds sheeple who haven’t paid their property taxes at Short Creek have until the end of the month , 1/31/2012 , to pay or make payment arrangements , if they refuse they will be evicted , I pay my rent /property taxes every month & everybody got a notice stating what would be done , so far I don’t think very many will pay their property taxes , maybe a few will or maybe we will see more sheeple move to other lands of refuge in the U.S . and or Canada ?? other-Anon


  145. I remember reading here about the questions that Lyle started asking the flds members, sometime last January/February? I just remember commenting that i found several of them very, very intrusive. I have scrolled through old threads and haven’t found it. Anyone here remember that list of very personal questions that they started asking?

  146. oops, i was the anonymous posting above

  147. julikan, I believe you are referring to this post:

    I figure those earlier questions were already asked so the most recent ones are much more intrusive.

  148. The big change, is now he is asking if they are having sex, hand over title to vehicles and such, give them five grand cash, and we will let you know if you are worthy, and btw, we need to interview your daughter who is 15, in the morning.

    Then we’ll get back to you. And if you are a go, we need to rebaptize you.

    And then in the back yard, we have three hoops and a Statue of Warrens ass.

    You jump through the hoops and kiss his ass, then we’ll think about it. But hand over the money, goods and girls first please!

  149. A very good assessment, Stamp!!

  150. thanks, anon 8:32. that was exactly what i was looking for!

  151. Is Warren Jeffs a threat to the USA? In this opinion piece the writer believes so. From article:

    “The terrorist who worries me most in this New Year is not an avowed enemy being stalked by American forces abroad. It is Warren Jeffs, the homegrown cult leader and imprisoned pedophile.”

  152. Mike Watkiss reports on recent events relating to Warren Jeffs.

  153. A Texan said this on January 2, 2012 at 11:45 PM: Maybe that’s how they did the Warren’s sermon from the prison cell, without the prison officials knowing what was going on.

    Very possible that a phone switcher was part of the process.

    The FLDS has a system of phone capabilities in place. Warren made mentions of it in his Phood records and also some mention of some of the flock who operated it.

    I would like to think that the relevant law enforcement agencies have read those records and followed through with the information.

  154. The “Californian” is a Gannett property, which owns both USA Today and the local so utah paper “The Spectrum”

  155. no phone calls. Guess my family was more rightous then I thought.

  156. Auditorium or not? If it is an auditorium wouldn’t there be a few fire exits/doorways on the other side? Large piping trenches leading to or away from the thing? I am thinking some type of water treatment or a governement funded research fishbowl. People are still trying to figure out what the deal is with the two headed toads.

    Cameras? or sensor lights? Better to monitor the neon colors coming from the two headed toads.
    The doom and gloom Rawhide push going on in the twin towns? So concerned are the Utah and Arizona officials that not one National Guard unit has been sent out to help with the many leaving. Not one cot. Not one Church offering an old school or gym for these people to bunk down.
    So concerned is the Federal Govt. that I’ve yet to see anything said by any official stating that they are closing in on any investigations or have any warrants out for those that have broken the laws so boldly.

    All the phone sermons BS being piped out of the Texas prison system is making Texas look like they can’t /don’t have any control of the situation. Whatever is yipping on that phone line is bigger than Texas imo.
    New damage to the famous twin city library? ABC news utah is looking sillier by the story. Fact. Not just my opinion.
    Phone games played only by the FLDS? lol lol lol The LDS also have their listening devices on. And investigations concerning such things? Non existent.
    Where are the investigations concerning the other Polygamy groups breaking the law?

    Where are the investigations of those that have abused the systems in many ways?

    Where is the tax man?

    If there are no laws being broken, taxes don’t have to be paid and polygamy is okie dokie in Utah and Arizona maybe they should be able to keep their homes. Maybe Shurtleff and Murphy can do a Public Service announcement and toss up a little white flag and tell everyone it’s all ok in Utah. Laws can be broken here and we will white wash everything to make it all look good.

    And we’ll even show you how to get govt. contracts without having to pay taxes or follow the other laws in place.
    The concern for America’s security? Yes. But the Warren Jeffs involvement is only part of it all. The person that wrote the opinion piece should put his glasses back on and eat his cereal in the morning.

    He should be more worried about the lack of response by our Government on the many issues. imo it would be nice to see someone protecting us all and not change the rules for those within.

    Warren takes away their marriages and now calls it adultry? Seriously?

    And Utah sits and waits for the statue of limitations to pass.

    What a bunch!
    Much of this could have been avoided if the officials in Utah and Arizona did their jobs. Even more could have been avoided had any the decency to stand up and tell it like it is.

    I best not see any stories (fake or not) about anyone getting hurt. Not one law-enforcement person nor any from the groups.

  157. Or maybe they had the $5,000 PK. You never know.

  158. long winded post was made by me Walton

  159. PK

    Maybe they are too embarrassed to call and admit “You were right all along”

  160. So sorry PK – hang in there. Maybe there’s still time to come to their senses.

  161. Sorry to see it.

    It is easy to see why the people of Hildale and Colorado City are suffering.

    Everything they have ever projected on others has has visited.

    Judgement and the removal of personal rights has removed them from their rights.

    Being afraid that the world may be watching them has the world watching them.

    Thinking in aberrated ways has brought the behavior.

    It has been said for many years that ” There will come a day when you can pick any house you want, because they will all be empty “.

  162. I’m wondering if the $ 5,000 at this past years end isn’t only the beginning , we may see more $ 5,000 a month edicts from Warren / Lyle ,, remember the sheeple have until January , 31 to pay or arrange to pay their property taxes or be evicted , who knows maybe one of us unredeemed people may get an empty house ?? All the other edicts are like a Jim Jones type of madness which WSJ / Lyle possess in their minds , make the Kool-Aid lol other-Anon

  163. Warren wants to die rich when he drinks the koolaid.

    Or… when he has THEM drink it.

  164. Anon @ 4:50 PM

    That is exactly what Uncle Marion prophecied!

    He said the day would come when you could walk through the town and have your pick of house (unless I have misquoted him).

  165. Eldorado Success reporting that Warren Jeffs’ phone privileges are suspended pending a TDCJ look see into the Christmas calls.


    Warren loses phone privileges and when he gets them back his list will be 2 shorter.


    Eldorado Success reporting that TDCJ suspends Warren’s phone privileges pending their investigation into the Christmas calls.

  168. Then Uncle Marion is more of a prophet than Jeffs. How come his followers dont remember that a prophet is only respected if his prophecies come true? All this stuff gets scarier by the day.

  169. Uncle Marion was/is more of a prophet than Warren.

  170. Questions:

    1….Does the TDCJ have the ability to automatically detect if a prisoner calls a number that’s not on his list?

    2….Are those 10 land line numbers pre-verified by the TDCJ?

    The CNN article says:
    “All calls are recorded and monitored except those between an inmate and his attorney.”
    3….Are the phone calls merely recorded, or does a live human listen to/monitor the entire call as it happens?

    (10 numbers reduced to 8; now I wonder who got ‘exed’ – ha ha!)

  171. Lindsay’s latest:

  172. Appears the FLDS goons are at it again, appears they vandalized the building that was to be used as a library, this punching holes in the roof.

    Watch the video at above link.

  173. Why do you suppose John H. stated that this was the only station to carry this story?

    The FLDS have known to take apart grain elevators in the night. build homes within days. Do you really think that members of the FLDS would destroy a building with the history that this one has behind it?

    Taking out windows? pulling down sheetrock and insulation? ?? sounds and looks like a remodeling job to “weatherize” the place.


  174. Imploding from inside ! I just hope the sheeple don’t decide to start shooting & ask questions later , WSJ / Lyle might direct some henchmen to shoot , who knows ? The apostates / former members of Short Creek know from past experience about the public library being damaged , can’t have those books from the outside world / Babylon infecting the town or Lyle will fly off the handle & get angry & destroy those buildings ! Sounds more like a Jim Jones scenario all the time , did someone say it’s Kool-Aid time ! other-Anon

  175. Things that people can do with a computer and a phone.

    A few years ago this is what I found on my computer:

    This was when I still had dial up.


    I recently did a family history thing. I’ve always known who my big brothers were. Now, I don’t have a problem with Big Brother as long as he is one of the guys that upholds the law and wears a uniform similar to those Texas Rangers.

    But I do have a problem with anyone listening to my phone conversations that isn’t related to me/ working for the Texas Rangers and doesn’t have me on the family Christmas Card list.


  176. On Uncle Marion, I assume we’re talking Jonathon Marion Hammon?

    Please tell me the vandalized building we’re talking about is NOT the original school house, which is an historic monument that means a great deal to me whether it should or not.

  177. EJay, there is no pen or jail I have ever heard of that has the resources necessary to human-monitor prisoner phone calls. They routinely record them and they only go back to them if they are alerted to a problem or if there is an active investigation proceeding. Unfortunately. It would be nice if there was an active RICO investigation, but probably none of us feel this is likely. We can only hope!

  178. Hope, hope and more hope!

  179. It is the original schoolhouse 3C.

  180. Questions:
    1….Does the TDCJ have the ability to automatically detect if a prisoner calls a number that’s not on his list?
    2….Are those 10 land line numbers pre-verified by the TDCJ?
    The CNN article says:
    “All calls are recorded and monitored except those between an inmate and his attorney.”
    3….Are the phone calls merely recorded, or does a live human listen to/monitor the entire call as it happens?
    (10 numbers reduced to 8; now I wonder who got ‘exed’ – ha ha!)
    EJay said this on January 3, 2012 at 8:31 PM

    It is my understanding that they get a printout of the numbers called by each prisoner. Not sure how often the get it, but most prisoners are smart enough to know if they call an unapproved number they are going to get caught.

    The 10 land line numbers have to be verified by the TDCJ before they are added to the approved list. They have to be verified to be landlines.

    Whether or not the calls are monitored depends on where the phone he uses is. If it is in his cell then no, if it is in a common room then yes.

    As for who got deactivated, my best guess is Lyle and someone at the ranch, since they said it was a relative I’d go with Mother Merilyn, Isaac or Nephi.

  181. Thanks PT. Yes, hope it was Lyle and his mama… the two main forces (of the human kind) in Jeffs’ life right now. Mom has always driven, excused, motivated and underpinned him… always! You’d be surprised how much influence she’s had (and probably still does) in his life.

    But you’d think that after Jeffs’ little stunt, or scare, or whatever they’re calling it, the authorities have all the justification they need to keep a closer eye on him…. and for all kinds of other reasons.

    Where’s Michael Wellner??? The eminent Dr. needs to talk to Jeffs before he (Jeffs) goes completely over the edge. For history and posterity’s sake!!! The authorities called him in on Brian David Mitchell… why not Jeffs? If there’s anyone who can predict anyone else’s depraved behavior / likely next steps, it would be Wellner.

  182. Oh PT, I am just SICK that the historic monument has been defiled. I know this is the least of our worries right now. When I was there in November I photographed it extensively, just because I feared something like this might happen. I can’t help it, that building was very important to my family history. Good or bad. I am truly shocked that the sheeple would defile their own precious history in that way.

  183. The public library might also be the log cabin home was going to Orval Johnson’s home a couple of blocks south of the old schoolhouse , it later was going to be the public library , the video showed Isaac Wyler at that location , which was also where the recent book burning in March 2011 was ..other-Anon

  184. When I was there last year, I was told that it was the original schoolhouse and that it had been in the Orval Johnson family.

  185. No PT it’s not the original schoolhouse , I live near that one , it’s the log cabin that was going to a home for Orval Johnson, check out the with Isaac Wyler , he’s by the log cabin …. other-Anon

  186. Warren Jeffs Banned Books, but A New Day Dawns


    John H. stated that this was the same building that books were taken and some burned. The library books that are supposedly still housed at the jailhouse?

  187. So it’s the Orval Johnson log cabin, not the school house? I can live with that. I just remember that it was in the Orval Johnson family.

  188. The original school house I’m talking about is the one with the old windmill to the side and it’s now chainlink fenced with a historical marker out front commemorating the 1953 raid.

  189. Finally found a photo:

  190. Here’s more news on that felonious profit Warren Jeffs, appears his phone has been cut off indefinitely per the San Angelo, TX paper, and the investigation of his sermon to the FLDS should wind up in a week or two.–polygamist-leader-phone130-convicted-use/

    Guess the folks at the SLTrib got it wrong and the Eldorado Success & the San Angelo Standard Times got it right.

  191. That picture isn’t the picture of the place I’m referring to 3C, the place I was shown was more of a log cabin type structure.

  192. A Texan, the Trib finally corrected their story to say that he lost all phone privileges.

  193. Oh good PT!

  194. From the above story:

    “We’d like to see families stay together. We’d like to see people living there in the houses. They do not have to leave,” Bruce Wisan said. “I’d like to get the word out that if the church says you have to leave the community, you don’t. The church does not control the real estate.”

    EJay said this on January 2, 2012 at 8:41 PM

    well, this certainly changes the climate of getting kicked out. Now they are only unworthy – Not lose your earthy house and go to hell.

  195. Great article from the Salt Lake Weekly, know for it’s anti-establishment views, on subject of Elizabeth Smart.

    From article:
    “Angie Makomenaw, Violence Against Women coordinator for the University of Utah’s Women’s Resource Center, isn’t surprised that Smart takes her victim role seriously. “You’ll find that in the fields of domestic violence and child sexual abuse, those who are most passionate about it have experienced it firsthand,” she says. “They know. They’ve gone through it.”



    Proud Texan said this on January 4, 2012 at 8:20 PM

    Well perhaps ole Shirtless will finally his rear in gear and do something, perhaps AG Abbott told him to do something before Texas did his job for him.

  198. Good. I hope he follows through. Although without help from the inside, I don’t know where he would look.

  199. Good news is that the press is aware, and pondering of the enablers in chiefs, just wtf?


  200. Has anybody heard of any new lands of refuge other than the ones we know of ? Short Creek is imploding has reached critical mass . I expect to see many sheeple not paying their property taxes to the UEP Trust , controlled by Mr . Wisan & being evicted soon , where they’ll go is anybody guess …. other-Anon

  201. Ejay,
    I just saw your comment regarding Dr. Welner. He has a Facebook page, you can contact him through that medium. I don’t know how much time he will be granted to do additional work outside NYU this year, but you could always ask him if he would be willing or interested to take a trip to give a forensic impression of Jeffs.

  202. BiB thanks for the suggestion. Apologies for previously misspelling Dr. Welner’s name.

    It certainly won’t hurt to ask him.

    I would think Dr. Welner might be interested in studying Jeffs’ depravity – if even to compare to his discoveries with Mitchell. Unlike Mitchell, Jeffs is in a powerful position – from jail no less – to continue wreaking even more extreme havoc and destruction than he already has on huge numbers of people. I say huge in comparison to Singer, Jones or Koresh.

    Big problem: I couldn’t possibly afford his fees. Am I the only one who would like to understand Jeffs’ predictability factor? Or (to be horribly cliché) am I just barking up the wrong tree?

  203. Ejay – I sent you a pm on Facebook about this issue – email me when you get a chance. Maybe we can compose a letter to him conjointly.

  204. Warren Jeffs threatens another “enemy” by name in his revelations. IMO the person is a hero. Seems ole Warren doesn’t like dentists, especially when they start anti polygamy organizations.

    Seems Dr. Dan Fischer started a the diversity foundation to help lost boys escaping from Warren Jeffs.

  205. Dan Fischer IS a hero. He has done so much to help others, like himself, in escaping this abusive cult.

    That he speaks the truth and people listen, likely make the FLDS unhappy.

    I harp on them all the time but I am a gentile who sees what is going on in a different light.

    Dan knows all of the dirty tricks they pull on peoples minds, from a personal perspective.

    There is a growing crowd rising up behind Dan, as he shines the light on abuses that LE cant seem to see – yet.

  206. More looney Jeffs revelations, seems ole Warren doesn’t like Cincinnati,OH. Guess that felonious profit just doesn’t like the Reds or Bengals.

    From the SLTrib;

  207. Silly Warren also demands that Merril the wife beater also be freed, guess he’s back in the fold with Warren, see “revelations” posted above.
    Got news for ya Warren, both you & Merril are not getting out of the big house.

  208. What’s Warren’s beef with Bengal town?

    Has he always been such a pro-lifer? I never noticed before.

    I wonder if anybody sent Merril a copy.

  209. HA

    Warren just reminded me of my dear Grandmother:

    “Stock up on Firewood”

    Proud Texan said this on January 4, 2012 at 8:20 PM

    New term for me – “The evil Ward”

    So when sheeple are moved from the first ward to the evil ward – they become the black sheeple.

  211. Very nice, Watergirl. The “black sheeple.” I love it.

  212. “Black Sheeple”

    A fate worse than Cain?

  213. Here’s more on subject of lost boys, a well written article IMO.

    This what Dr. Fischer is trying to prevent and stop.

  214. Opinion piece on WSJ:

  215. TC,

    Warren’s fixation on abortion is relatively new since he was convicted in Texas.

    He mentions it a few times in his profit-on-the-move dictations, but generally only as one of several items on his Babylonwickedlists.

  216. From the Eldorado Success:

    United Order of Texas (YFZ) appraised market value:

    $29 million

    Agriculture and religious exemptions leave a taxable value of $17.8 million.

    They are the second largest taxpayer in Schleicher County.

  217. Also in this week’s Success:

    26 y/o male — Jackson Jessop — arrested 12-24-2011 for DWLI (Driving While License Invalid) — released 12-25-2011. $1000 cash bond.

  218. You beat me bringing that little tidbit about Jackson over here.

  219. I almost missed seeing it.

    Wonder if he got out in time to hear der leader’s Christmas message.

  220. Not sure. I never remember to look at the Sheriff’s blotter, I was told to this time.

  221. Here’s the British press take on Warren Jeffs.

  222. And not to be left since the British have had their say, the San Angelo paper had this to report.

    From article: “The girls who disappear are called “poofers” as a slang term, Murphy said.”

  223. Judge Hyde, the Administrative Judge who heard all of the recusals against Judge Walther died from non-smoker’s lung cancer.

  224. Yow. Was he even old? How awful.

  225. He was 69

  226. Very sad.

  227. Now that his phone has been taken away, its back to the drawing board.

    Warren is going to whip out his new secret weapon.

    Prophet Orders On Paper, Sincerely, Holy Order Of Texas


  228. Guess Warren will now “WEWEASE THE SECWET WEAPON!” ~ American Tail

  229. This is great!!!

  230. Maybe Hunsaker is the real secwet weapon!

  231. That letter was pretty awesome.

  232. There will be another raid this year (2012) . Everything is in place now.

    The choices of the few will effect the many, once again.

    Knowing the outcome of divisive action shows how much the ignorance on both sides of the conversation has grown. This new action will be more comprehensive and supported than any other act ever taken against the families who follow in the footsteps of the resistance.

    I pray for the innocent .

  233. “There will be another raid this year (2012) . Everything is in place now.

    The choices of the few will effect the many, once again.

    Knowing the outcome of divisive action shows how much the ignorance on both sides of the conversation has grown. This new action will be more comprehensive and supported than any other act ever taken against the families who follow in the footsteps of the resistance.

    I pray for the innocent .”

    Did you think to pray for the innocent victims of Warren Jeffs. Families destroyed, peoples lively hoods taken from, the lost boys kicked out, so the priethoodlums could have their choice of female victims?

    The lists of Warren Jeffs victims number in the hundreds if not thousands.
    Yes pray for the innocent victims of Warren & Lyle.

  234. Article written 60 years ago – 1953 –

    It is in this most isolated of all Arizona communities that the foulest of conspiracies has flourished and expanded in a terrifying geometric progression. HERE HAS BEEN A COMMUNITY ENTIRELY DEDICATED TO THE WARPED PHILOSOPHY THAT A SMALL HANDFUL OF GREEDY AND LICENTIOUS MEN AND SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT AND THE POWER TO CONTROL THE DESTINY OF EVERY HUMAN SOUL IN THE COMMUNITY.


  235. As time goes by in my opinion, the FLDS will self destruct as Lyle & Warren’ demands become to much. People will leave going to the second ward, The new church of the two Willies, others leaving polygamy altogether joining protestant churches or the mainstream LDS.

    What will be left will not be able to support the remnant FLDS, with most of it’s assets sold off in tax sales.
    One day Sheriff Doran will sale an abandoned bankrupt YFZ for back taxes, if it is not seized as an asset of a criminal organization first.

    Warren Jeffs hopefully will die a forgotten old man, his unclaimed body ending up at Peckerwood Hill cemetery with all the other forgotten convicts.

  236. This is great!!!

    Proud Texan said this on January 6, 2012 at 8:55 PM

    Yes PT it’s great! Well written, an excellent letter to the profit!

  237. Anon 10:06, where will the 2012 raid occur?

  238. Anon 10:34, here is a link I have previously posted at least twice to photographs taken during the 1953 raid. They are quite moving either way.,A,1;title,A,1;sourcd,A,0;creato,200,0;none,A,0;20;title,subjec,none,none,none&CISOBIB=title,A,1,N;sourcd,A,0,N;creato,200,0,N;none,A,0,N;none,A,0,N;20;title,none,none,none,none&CISOTHUMB=20%20(4×5);title,none,none,none,none&CISOTITLE=20;title,none,none,none,none&CISOHIERA=20;sourcd,title,none,none,none&CISOTYPE=link&CISOOP1=all&CISOFIELD1=title&CISOBOX1=Short+Creek&CISOOP2=all&CISOFIELD2=sourcd&CISOBOX2=&CISOOP3=all&CISOFIELD3=creato&CISOBOX3=&CISOOP4=all&CISOFIELD4=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOBOX4=&c=all&CISOROOT=/USHS_Class

  239. Reply to Hunsucker, TV 4 (Ref. above link):

    The Lord to Warren Jeffs: “My Holy Power (D) of Eternal Holy Power (K) of Union Power Celestial (T)”.

    Ingenious! Mystery! What the world wicked do not know of tree of live permutations, being the world wicked, of unholy power of fleeting corruption, of disunion power telestial, and juvenile.

    Absolutely ingenious, poetic, and precise, being it came from God Himself.

  240. Brent Hunsaker is not dealing with a rational , logical person when he writes a open letter to WSJ , who is irrational, illogical , depraved & deranged , so I don’t think it would do any good the write anything logical or rational to him & show his mistakes , he probably doesn’t think he’s depraved / deranged or insane , we’re dealing with a schizophrenic , Lyle’s no different than WSJ !! other-Anon

  241. Oh I know, other anon, but sometimes we need some light hearted comedy to brighten the days of our struggle. It’s comic relief from our daily battles!

  242. Yes we need some humor everyday to get by , I just wish this whole mess was more humorous , as Ron White says ” you can’t fix stupid ” , I’m referring to the sheeple here ,,,, lol ….other-Anon

  243. I suppose ya probably can’t fix stupid…. and in the real sense of course there’s nothing funny about it.

  244. Reply to Street – Anon 12:25

    Keep’n Sweet Street? Hows college? Larn anything yet?

    Or are you Keeping Sour like your homeboy Horney Warney?

    You know he kicked you out for good reason back then, and they would do it again and again, just show up in Shortcrackistan and find out how fast they will turn you out on your ass.

    Poetic, huh?

  245. BTW

    Jay nailed it. You and Ruth were made for each other!

  246. BTW

    Jay nailed it. You and Ruth were made for each other!

    Stamp said this on January 7, 2012 at 7:34 AM

    Did know what this was all about until I read the comments at:

    Though “street” was gone like a bad memory, but guess he’s like a bad penny, it keeps coming back.

  247. If Street and Ruth are the face of warren’s supporters; warren is really in deep doo doo.

  248. A thought provoking article on who is the “victim” of polygamy, my take from article, we all are, society in general.

  249. Yeah I saw the exchange over there. I never logged on to that site to respond, but see he copied his goofy praise of Warren over here so that was my response.

    Evidently he is still surfing the internet despite dire warnings against it!

    Him and Ruth both.

  250. Who is Street exactly? I have not read back blogs to try and figure him out yet. Ruth, on the other hand, oh my. I feel badly for her and it is so obvious that she has mental health issues. However, even with her continued ramblings, her story appears to be the same. I have been following the different blogs regarding FLDS and have grave concerns that WSJ is leading the flock to a Jonestown. I know many of you have made similar statements of concern. I don’t see 2012 being any better for the residents.

  251. To the best of my recollection street is a Zittner ? man. Don’t rememeber his first name, He has been kicked off many blogs for his posts about first fruits, etc.

  252. Thank you, chemist. I try to keep all the names, situations, etc., straight in my head and then something new pops up!


    old news

  254. Zittner ??? you probably mean, Zitting.

    old news??? — That article talks as if Colonia LeBaron is FLDS. No it’s not. “Fundamentalist Mormons” perhaps, but not of the Warrenite FLDS variety.

  255. But some of those in Colonia LeBaron are kin to Warrenites.

  256. Ejay: Thanks for the clarification. It is Zitting. Used to know his first name, but cannot recall it now. Sign of old age? LOL.

  257. Its a guy, I recollect Sheryl with that last name. Served in ‘nam, one of the few.

    Think he said he is now in the Phoenix area.

  258. It is Sheryl Zitting, aka “street” or “onthestreet”.

  259. OTS…the man of a thousand words. Some of the longest, mostly nonsensical ramblings I’ve ever read. And he had a potty mouth, to boot! HA!

  260. Noted PT; and it’s true of all the fundamentalist factions. They all have relatives in the FLDS… and vice versa.

  261. I’m unclear on whether Street himself copied this blog on his comment or whether one of the rest of us did.

  262. It think it’s Sherrell and not Sheryl. Zitting.

  263. Tis I. Greetings, everybody.

  264. On shall be in.

  265. In(breeding) shall be out.

  266. Life plus 20 is 20 plus life….

  267. How is school, and how is the family back home?

  268. Is that Street posting anonymously ?

  269. BB: My last post was 1:53

  270. Street –
    How is the family back home?

  271. Washington Post on girls being held for sexual purposes:

  272. Wrong link – here it is.


    Twist, he told Butte County about the pestilence you’ve been missing.

  274. Part two of an article on subject of victims and preps in polygamy:

    An interesting perspective written by a former polygamist woman who escaped.

  275. Why the sudden silence? Why such fear of the truth, and that the truth will prevail? “The wicked flee when no man pursueth”. It is like Adam fleeing from Jehovah in the Garden of Eden because he was naked. Now, put your clothes back on.

  276. Ah. Greetings.

  277. But no mention of any overflowing scourge, PT.

    I see that they’re shipping unsolicited boxes of books , including paperbacks.

    “Dear sir or madam won’t you read my book
    It took me years to write
    Won’t you take a look”

  278. 3-C: I didn’t mean to disrupt your breeding. Glad to see you was able to get off long enough to peck out a reply. Be ye clean.

  279. Family’s fine.

  280. The Lord to the Prophet:

    My Power (D-Christ), of Eternal Power(K-His Father), of Union Power Celestial (T-His Son) to unite the Heavenly Hosts, to encircle the enemy of God in His wrath (Rev. 11:18). Thus the worse wildfires this year, in all history, right there in Texas, and the death penalty of the Prophet’s poor judge Hyde, while the Prophet receives life.

    The judgments have barely begun. God bless those who mourn for him and for the FLDS, and repent and come clean as the Prophet has done, in directing the society to be sexually clean before the end, I pray in Jesus Christ, Amen.

  281. Why the sudden resurgence of posts by Street ?

  282. Don’t believe everything you read on the internet, BiB. The only time that poster referred to street directly was when quoting him from the Trib. Then when you asked about street, he said “it is I” – a true statement surely whether street or no.

  283. But to answer. The wildfires happened BEFORE the predictions, and no wildfires for Texas were in the predictions. The death of an old man is hardly a proof of punishment from God. And if you think Jeffs is doing well sitting in isolation in prison for life plus 20, you really are delusional.

  284. Anon @ 3:37 am, as for claiming that Judge’s Hyde’s death is some how Warren related is a total stretch. He was diagnosed with non-smoker lung cancer long before he ever knew Warren Jeffs existed and he lived long enough to make sure Warren was in jail for life where he belongs. From what I know, he lived much longer than the doctor’s predicted.

    And Betty’s right about the wildfires, Warren never predicted wildfires in Texas, but the fact that they will occur is pretty much a given during any Texas summer so that prediction is something that is a gimme to come true.

  285. Part 3 on subject of victims & preps of polygamy, from article:

    “A disturbing 30 foot tall statue of Warren Jeffs holding a young girl is being readied for a huge amphitheater in Texas. If credit was given where credit was due there would also be a statue of Uncle Sam reaching toward Warren Jeffs with a fist full of dollars.”

    Article implies we all victims because of FLDS welfare fraud. Read the rest:

  286. Hello Street

    Lucifer’s emissaries on earth use the Word of God deceitfully to peddle his false gospel. Their books and sermons are replete with Bible verses, and a fair amount of truth is thrown in for good measure. But among the kernels of truth, false teachers stealthily sow heresies which take root in the hearer’s mind, become established and eventually overtake the truth. A little leaven eventually leavens the whole lump. If isolated and examined, the heresies will be seen to form a coherent system of Gnostic doctrine.

  287. T D K – The Dark Knight

  288. my word, is that Hugh preaching to an flds repenter from afarer?

    Just when OTS thought he was safe in the big city. Along comes another scroll thumper to ruin his day.

  289. Anon @3:37 – Judge Hyde was never Warren’s judge and Warren never made any sort of a prophesy about Judge Hyde. Anyone can rearrange stuff and make it look like it is prophesy coming true.

  290. I have a hangnail and a flat tire.

    Has to be because Warrren sayeth it would happen.

  291. We have a plethora of anonymous posters, that’s for sure.

  292. Warren’s phone priviledges have been suspended for 90 days so I forseeth a plethora written material coming out of Palestine. Hasn’t he ever heard of conserving trees?

  293. LOL. He is very fond of his own words.

  294. Basically, most of us are like bystanders at a train wreck .We can offer nothing more than an opinion while the professionals deal with the chaos.I just wonder who the professionals are ? Do the councilors know how to deal with those that are severely brain-washed? Sure,there are those that know the protocol for dealing with child or sex abuse,but are there those that know how to untangle a brain steeped in FLDS training ? Most assured,many will be leaving this cult by the time Warren is through pummeling it with his unbearable commands,but who is there to help them pick up the pieces?

  295. Robert, I do know that the Holding Out Help organization is down there helping the current refugees. Here is its most recent statement:

  296. There has always been help….it’s getting them to seek it and ask for it. After years of ‘everyone else is the devil’ training, there is little to no trust outside their own kind.

  297. Wendell has a pretrial set for Jan 30 and Warren for May 21.

  298. hey Warren, I have a question for ya. You send all this stuff out to all these different small Texas county commissioners demanding to be released. Who do you think actually has the power to release you? You were put in jail by the state of Texas AG office and a jury of 12. You are wasting money on stamps telling people with no real power they need to release you. Maybe you should focus your rants on Governor Perry. He claims to be a God-fearing man. Bug him for a release – you look like an idiot making demands to county pencil pushers.

  299. That looney felonious profit, he can’t talk for 90 days, the prison guards took his phone away.
    Shouldn’t have broke the rules boy.

  300. Yes…his phone privileges were revoked, but the sheeple don’t know that.

    This just gives Lyle the room he needs to make up his own “revelations..” and they’ll accept them without knowing the diff. I ache for my family members who have fallen for warrens version of the gospel, and pray to God they will wake up from this nightmare.

  301. Watergirl, wasting money is his forte. He has zero expectations of anyone he’s addressing that junk to. The ONLY intended audience for all those mailings is his own believers. It’s strong stuff to them. Dire warnings serve to keep their minds controlled – keep them believing if they suffer enough and have enough faith, God will bring down those prison walls and destroy all those wicked people they think he’s writing to.

    He’s not talking to “those” people; he’s talking to “his” people. The end is near and they have to be READY.

  302. I wonder if Guv Perry has received any of this? He’s so busy out on the campaign trail he probably hasn’t had time to review the crap and get back to Warren with a big “HELL NO I’m not going to pardon you.”

  303. From Canada :

  304. If Canada does pursue criminal charges,do ya’ think Shurtleff will finally act? The only place left to hide will be Mexico or beyond

  305. Hmmmm I’m thinking its time for the US Feds to act, having the RCMP rifle through the case files of all these polygamist crimes has GOT to be a major embarrassment.

    The Feds have plenty of evidence lined up, they have the addresses of the perps, they just need to serve and protect.

    These are children we’re talking about.

  306. MC (Jan 9, 5:09 pm): My, my, my, my, my Momma t, t, told me fa, fa, fa, fooooooosball is the DEVIL!

  307. MC (Jan. 9, 5:09 pm): My, my, my, my Momma t, t, told me fa, fa, fa foooooosball is the DEVIL!

  308. Ejay, Are the sheeple so ill-informed about US government that they don’t know that county commissioners can’t release him even if they did believe the baloney?

  309. Wait until the end of the month & see if the sheeple will pay their property taxes or not , my guess is NOT , so they will sooner or later be evicted by Wisan with the help of Utah / Arizona county police , hey SHEEPLE ” you can’t fix stupid ” LOL other-Anon

  310. Netflix is finally shipping out the “Sons of Perdition” movie. I should get my copy in a few days and can watch it. I thought others might like knowing that it is available in that venue.

  311. Watergirl, it wouldn’t matter if they were informed or not – some are, some aren’t. All that matters is strict obedience to their religion and a leader who represents God on earth.

    I’m quite sure they do realistically understand Warren cannot be released legally. But they can easily visualize God softening the hearts of his jailers who would then humbly let him go free. They just have to have enough faith.

    Smoke and mirrors…. and a whole lot of superstition.

  312. I had a friend put it on her Netflix list, sometime back. Then I watched it online. Now, I don’t remember if it was the entire movie or just parts, so I look forward rto seeing it again.

  313. Street – catching up on Adam Sandler movies? Waterboy is a hoot.

    But you didnt have to double stutter!

    Just imagine Kathy Bates getting up in Warren’s grill. She would be like Ruth on steroids.

    Say, talking about ol String Bean, no more ringy dingy for that ding a ling!

    Until Spring.

    Well, he can look forward to smelling the roses along the way!

  314. The SLTrib has posted an article on Jeffs latest “revelations” as well as a transcript of a radio program that SLTrib reporter Lindsey Whitehurst participated in.

    SLTrib article;

    Warren’s latest “revelation”, looney as ever IMO:

    Radio transcript, involves Whitehurst, head of holding out hope organization, and historians on subject of polygamy.

  315. Check this out. Warren’s claiming to be President of the LDS Church.

  316. LOL – now we will see the LDS Church use their big gun lawyers to try to shut him up like they do anyone who disparages their religion. He will probably get a cease and desist order from them for signing documents that way. Plus a big media spin campaign claiming he is the nut job we know he is.

  317. This is nothing new. The Salt Lake church leaders know and probably ignore this. It’s just laughable to them.

    Remember, FLDS believe it was the current mainstream church that went astray. It gets all wrapped up in convoluted dialog of Father Priesthood versus Mother Church. Mother Church left Father Priesthood and went the way of the world. Mother Church took a whole lot of her children with her; but she has no priesthood and is in apostasy.

    Sooo… Warren is the “real” president of the LDS church.

    Oh well, not to worry. Apocalypse and destruction are imminent. God will take this whole earthly mess and set it in order.


  318. Yep EJay and the President will be indecisive.


  319. Here’s even more from the SLTrib.

    Appears that felonious profit also has a message for President Obama. Got news for ya Warren, nobody cares in DC.

  320. Well it got someones attention over at D-News, here’s the report on Warren “Horney Toad” Jeffs appointing himself LDS president.

  321. Yup, rapin’ little girls sure is “funny”! (NOT) Gotta have a sense of humour for that little act. No, he doesn’t trifle with the souls of men, but he does trifle with the women-folk. Bleh

    Yawn…going back to sleep now. Street, you are an idiot!

  322. Street –

    For someone your age (60), obvious command of the English language, and knack for engaging others (good or bad), it is sad that you have to resort to the use of vulgar, sexualized language. It leads one to question your mental health, past experiences (1994-1995), and concern that you are one of the “lost boys” who suffered from being abused during your lifetime. Pity, you could do so much more in a positive way……….


  323. Years ago on a now defunct polygamy blog, I waxed poetic with OTS=On The Street (aka JC =Just Curious). Back then I referred to him as “Poopsie” — some of you may recall his penchant for pottiness. Personally I think this one’s a copycat, and not very good at that. Whether we have a street reincarnation or not, this little ditty applies to trolls and false prophets everywhere.

    Ode to Poopsie

    You live in a dream world of dreadful delights,
    Mind mutterings lift you to exorbitant heights.
    Oh Poopsie, beware the thin air…

    Shrill judgments define you; your wee little brain
    Deludes you with grandeur you’ll never attain.
    Oh Poopsie, beware; it’s a snare…

    Dream on, though your dream and your world is faux real,
    The dream will soon shatter and end your ordeal.
    Oh Poopsie, beware the despair…


  324. Poopsie ! I love it. Heehee

  325. Very nicely said feralfem!!!

  326. John Llewellyn will be on Polygamy : What Love is This? tomorrow evening to speak about “Love Times Three” and other issues related to polygamy groups.

  327. Feralfem,
    Welcome back !!

  328. Thanks for the reminder on johns upcoming appearance. I am looking forward to hearing what he has to say.

  329. So WSJ thinks he’s the LDS church prez . , he thinks his jailers will set him free or his prison walls will tumble , NOT ! WSJ you have as much chance of being LDS prez. as I have of being Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny ! WSJ’s Great Delusion , you can’t fix stupid Warren lol ….other-Anon

  330. Ah man you ruined it other-Anon, his next gig is going to be Cupid followed closely by the Easter Bunny.

  331. PT , no I didn’t , in WSJ’s delusion as Santa Claus , he gives presents of young girls to his henchmen or keeps for himself as presents or for birthday presents to him or his henchmen ! He don’t need no stinking Cupid ! lol …. other-Anon

  332. There’s a saying ” don’t mess with Texas “- WSJ , his henchmen , etc messed with Texas , now TX is messing with them prison time, etc , watch out for karma , it bites back & will take a big chunk out of your butt , oops , too late Warren & company ! lol other-Anon

  333. Abmin: How about if I post in a separate thread (Street’s Posts)? This would allow everyone to bypass my posts if they’d like.

    Or I can post elsewhere and start my own blogs.


  334. How about starting your own blog, call it “Street’s Smarts” or something.

    I think your posts are welcome if you have something to contribute, but bad language doesnt seem to be tolerated.

    I dont think anyone hates you Street, they just dont want to read nasty stuff.

  335. I also vote for your own blog….somewhere far from here. You don’t really add anything of value and the constant ramblings, that must mean something to you, don’t do anything here but take up space.

  336. Start your own blog. I get the impression that the majority of people here just ignore what you have written and do not wish to engage. Lively, coherent debate is one thing, but rambling, disjointed, sexualized verbage is not appreciated.

  337. Frankly, I don’t think blind allegiance to Warren is lively, coherent debate. Even when not potty mouthed, I’m not interested. Besides, I doubt seriously if the real street is capable of controlling himself for long.

  338. He evidently has a lot to say, and since Pliggy and Toes dont say much any more, not to mention the Florida and Montana friends keeping it on the down low, it might be a good opportunity to flower.

    Another suggestion for his blog:

    ~ Street Sweepings ~

  339. This song sums up wicked rulers that oppress the people

    Viva La Vida by Coldplay

  340. Agree that street should start his own blog. The potty mouth rantings by the real street (SZ) lead me to think about “by their fruits you shall know them”.
    If his thoughts are the fruits of flds membership and doctrine then the flds holds no attraction for most people.

  341. A newspaper might have the responsibility to post “both sides of the issue” but a private blog can and usually does have a view point. I think it’s very obvious that this blog has a viewpoint and I don’t think we should apologize about that. Accuse me of being against child rape and religiously mandated polygyny and I will loudly and gleefully agree with your accusation!

    We have always been about sharing the facts as we can find them, evidence, documents, scientific studies, judge’s statements, the arguments in the Canadian case, etc. But we hold the belief that examining those facts will lead you to agreement that the FLDS is a dangerous and destructive cult whose only purpose is to give power, wealth and ever younger sex partners to its leaders. We have never been particularly warm or welcoming to those who are still under the control of the cult unless they are asking for our help in some specific way. I don’t see any reason why we should.

    Of course we don’t all agree on the details. On where the law should put it’s focus, on how to best help those who want to get out, on what role the mainstream LDS church should play in the present and how much guilt they hold from the past. But reminding us in exhaustive and somewhat incoherent detail that there are some who still think Warren is God on earth is really not going to add anything positive to this blog. Sadly, we already know those people are out there and they do not respond well to logic or common sense. They do not come here to listen to use or even to have a fair exchange. They come here to tell us Warren is perfect and we are all going to fry in hell and usually they tell us that using very bad grammar and spelling. The potty mouth stuff with sexual and excrement “jokes” or puns is REALLY not welcome. There’s a big difference between discussing masturbation in theory and having a diatribe accusing random people of various degrading sex acts based on absolutely nothing but your vivid imagination. Street or anyone who pretends to be Street should be run off from this blog Toot Sweet in my not so humble opinion any and every time he shows up. I consider his attention a scourge like a computer virus. It’s a lot of work for the admins to be constantly checking for some new gift from him and cleaning up after it.

  342. Found this old book by accident.
    Higher Authority by Stephen White
    It explained more than anything else the mindset of the LDS, is a real good thriller that will keep you captivated. About the Danites, Blood atonement , etc. Fiction, yes, but boy, so much more. I am surprised this book was ever published and doubt it is sold in Utah.


  343. a few of the tweets on twitter this morning:

    utahsenate Utah State Senate
    In the senate mailbox: More #FLDS revelations. Guess we can’t say we weren’t warned. #utleg
    13 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

    brandonjmark Brandon Mark
    Really any different than @CarlWimmer ‘s forecasts? RT @utahsenate: In senate mailbox-More #FLDS revelations #utleg
    18 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

    MinnesotaRelish Óðr
    #LDS Warren Jeffs IS the AntiChrist. Warren Jeffs IS the AntiChrist. Warren Jeffs IS the AntiChrist. Warren Jeffs IS the AntiChrist. #FLDS

    MinnesotaRelish Óðr
    Warren Jeffs predicts death &destruction in revelations delivered to #Utah #AntiChrist #LDS #FLDS
    4 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply » MinnesotaRelish Óðr

    MinnesotaRelish Óðr
    I have a hunch that Warren Jeffs is almost ready to meet his maker. He wants to die anyhow – #sodomy #flds #StopBullying
    5 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

  344. Jeffs also prophecies that in one or two years of his warning, “heavenly bodies of a larger size” will strike the earth and disturb the atmosphere, resulting in people being burned.


    LOL – Ok, now I am really confused. So Is the world ending soon or not? I need to plan my calendar. Sheeple need to know if they need to pay taxes at end of month or not.

  345. Pay the taxes Watergirl!!!

  346. The San Angelo newspaper on the subject of the signs of the apocalypse, what’s your take since that felonious profit Warren Jeffs has made his known.

  347. Before the winter olympics were held in the SLC area warren predicted great woes upon the SLC area. He instructed his followers to go to short creek. As far as I know SLC is still there and has not had great disasters fall upon it. Why do his sheeple keep on beleiving his prophecies? He has been proven to be a false prophet several times.

  348. Oh, they don’t think he’s been proven to be a false prophet. When things don’t happen as prophesied, they are immediately brainwashed into believing it’s THEIR fault for not being good enough or having enough faith.

    The prophet does no wrong… it’s our fault Zion cannot be established yet… God would never let our beloved prophet lead us astray… we have to accept greater and greater sacrifice… suffer more… blah, blah and verily blah!

  349. Note to WSJ’s SHEEPLE ” you can’t fix STUPID ” lol other-Anon

  350. the sheeple don’t have internet anymore. they cant hear you. Maybe you should take a drive the short creek and let them know.

  351. The sheeple dont have much anymore, they lost their bikes, check, lost their girls, check, lost their sex life, check, spine, check, brain, check, prophet, check.

  352. Plygkid , they have the internet , they can’t admit they do or sheeple will be exed , & they can’t look at this website to find out about their looney prophet, also I live in Short Creek so I see it firsthand ….other-Anon

  353. if you say so :p

  354. so is other anon my replacemt? lol

  355. Plygkid ; what is your problem ? other-Anon

  356. I don’t have problems. I’m just making an observation. I don’t mean it in any sort of bad way.

    I check on this blog very rarely and I cant ever seem to tell if im reading old stuff or new stuff. The dynamics never change. Its just facinating.

  357. Wow. Idaho news – the public school district 25 miles away from me just put its superintendent on leave for being a polygamist.—137154473.html

  358. Thanks for the clarification .. other-Anon..

  359. Years ago I talked via online about polygamy with some people that frequent this blog. I said my piece and moved on. I’m just facinated that here 2 years or so later…..still talking about it like it was just last week when I was talking about it. Same jokes different words. They even have you Anon.. the insider. Mind explosion in process please wait……..

  360. so your former flds i take it. Still livin there so imagine your part of the older group. most youngins leave the nest. I myself havn’t been to the creek in a long while. I do still occaisonally crave a Craigos Pizza. That place still around?

  361. There’s actually more than one insider. But because of concerns about family and loved ones still in the FLDS, they are pretty low profile.

  362. Understandable. I can relate.

  363. Yes Craigo’s Pizza is still here …. other-anon

  364. Is it still good? Jared and Lilly still run it? I keep threatening my co workers with driving out there and getting one. My fear is that its not as good as it used to be and/or my memory of it is better than the pizza actually was.

  365. Was Craigo’s Pizza originally a business in Rexburg Idaho that moved to Short Creek?

  366. Yep. Jared Jeffs married one of the Idaho girls (Lilly) and together they brought craigos pizza to short creek. Take and bake and food stamp approved lol. The pizza was awesome from what I can remember. They even had a seafood pizza i really liked. If Lilly was there and you were a friend alot of times your pizza was just a little more loaded.

  367. Wow, Thanks PlygKid.

  368. Wow. Idaho news – the public school district 25 miles away from me just put its superintendent on leave for being a polygamist.—137154473.html

    Third Cousin said this on January 12, 2012 at 4:31 PM

    its just as i feared. Polygamy is becoming more trendy.

  369. Oh I certainly hope not. I don’t know yet whether they converted to AUB or another organization or whether they just went out on their own. This isn’t even Eastern Idaho, this is very close to Boise.

  370. Oh I have seen the shift. 2 years ago. When people found out where im frome they treated me like I was an alien from outer space. I even had one lady yell at me lol. Now its totally different. When people find out where im from I’m an instant buddy. I’m hip now because of it. I’m the Fonz. That and people treat me overly nice. Drives me nuts. I liked it better when people were negative towards it. I could get stuff done without having to tell a story first.

  371. Yikes.

  372. I know that the ones who are out have internet. I’m sure that Lyle and his goons have it too. How else would Lyle get his porn fix? I think the rank and file sheeple are to afraid of their own shadow at this point to buck the system and have internet or any thing that could be considered recreation.

    As for polygamy being trendy, I’m not sure it is, most of the people in the world don’t want more than 1 spouse. I think the truth is that more and more people are opening their eyes and becoming aware of it and the problem it is. Warren is doing a great job at showing what kind of a wackjob he is and it is rubbing off on those who belong to his cult.

  373. Betty, i like your post at 10:08. I have been reading this blog for over a few years and i have a question about Zion . Why did Warren choose
    Texas when Joseph Smith made it clear thst Zion is inin Missouri.

  374. Jackson County, Missouri is the final destination. After the destructions. But practice makes perfect, right? That’s all Texas is.

    But the really clever thing for a delusional narcissist is that it provides a perfect cover for all kinds of creepiness under the guise of the new “revealed ordinances” required in “Zion.”

    God requires that W.Jeffs practice those before revealing them to the faithful… just like J.Smith did back in his day. You know… the angel (or was it the Lord) with the sword?

    Watch for it.

  375. Thought it was the angel with sword. So. Does thr Bountiful group snd AUB have the same zion?

  376. They all derive from the same Mormon doctrine. Mainstream and Fundy.


  378. Thanks Pathgirl.

  379. This guy in Idaho’s name is Cook. John Cook. I have no idea of his ancestry.

  380. Don’t want to offend our friendly Chemist (who actually is not easily offended), but I completely agree Anon 9:40. It’s all the same. Joseph Smith was either a prophet, or not.

  381. PW, glad to have you joining us. Sounds like you’ve been clandestinely with us a while, so I probably don’t need to tell you that the fundy groups used to be closely confederated but I believe that has changed and that they have evolved into separate belief systems but all rooted in Joseph Smith mormonism. There is more than one group centered around Bountiful. There are at least three I know of. My people founded Woods Cross / Bountiful and several groups came out of that geographic area. They have all developed different ideas but I believe most think that Missouri will play a sacred role after the ride of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Perhaps on Harley Davidsons.

  382. The suspense is killing me, PlygKid, if you can possibly describe what might have been on the seafood pizza. I might love it. Good night!

  383. Third Cousin –
    Thanks for the info. I have studied the LDS and FLDS in some capacity since the 1980’s when the Mormon Murders occurred by Mark Hoffman. I found the whole forgery issue interesting and surprising at the same time. Could not believe how gullible the church was at the time and the lengths at which then went to concealing and hiding their documents. Are the folks in Bountiful as clueless as the folks in Short Creek appear to be regarding WSJ? I find it interesting that even though the command has been given by WSJ to his people to not engage in reading, the internet, get rid of pets and toys, etc., yet it appears that some of his follows are still online in this blog and others? Is Short Creek truly cut off from the rest of the country? Sorry with all the questions, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around that in todays information age with cell phones, etc.



    Finally some progress in getting the men who have been exed access to their children.

  385. Here’s an article on former FLDS man trying to get his children out of FLDS.

    Don’t know if link will work, a bit of a sad story on how FLDS turned children against him, and efforts to get help from courts.

  386. The link doesn’t work if you’re not a subscriber to The Spectrum.

    Just copy/paste the headline : Attorney to be appointed for children in FLDS case : into a Google search and you’ll be able to link to the story from there.


  388. PW, In reference to why WSJ chose Texas for YFZ ranch, I hate to speculate on the reasoning of someone who is obviously insane. Like Brian David Mitchell, I suspect his decisions were based on a combination of pragmatic self preservation and magical thinking. I do remember something from his priesthood record about how he thought that the people were not ready for the real Zion and needed to practice. Even the temple was a prototype. The idea was that they would be closer geographically and spiritually to the real Zion. In reality, the timing is a bit suspicious. The UEP was under attack, he was accused of molesting a young boy, there was a warrant out for him for conspiracy to rape and both Utah and Arizona were not seeming like a friendly environment for racketeering child molesters. West Texas looks promising to cults because of low population density and a culture of self reliance and minding your own business. But I think he was unaware of or ignored a history strong law and order and severe punishments. I think the cost per acre and ability to get a large contiguous plot was important. Obviously, they were not looking for good farm land and did not spend a lot of time making sure it had water and would perk sewage for the people they had in mind bringing. Like I said, who can say for sure? The man is nuts.

  389. Gee, I am so dumb, of course.

    There should have been pressure to get lawyers appointed on behalf of the children…… That would be the way to go.

  390. I have a good friend who is a Guardian ad Litem. She is not a lawyer but, worked in a law firm most of her career so she understands the legal system plus they are required to take a lot of hours in child law. In her case the children are already under government child protective services. She advocates for the child and places the childs best interest over those of anyone else. It is a way to make sure children don’t fall through the cracks. She goes to court with the child and speaks on their behalf. Even though she is not a lawyer the court pretty much always goes with their recommendation. It is a very serious responsiblity.

    In this case it will all depend on the personal history of the Guardian ad Litem – whether they have been in/aware of polygamy or not. Mainstream and FLDS are so far apart on beliefs that it will be hard for anyone to find a happy meeting ground between the two. All the convictions for child rape within will weigh in the father’s favor.

  391. well re-reading the article they are saying that the ad Litem in this case will be a lawyer. But, that is not usually the case.

  392. Hello Judge Schumate? Well of course there should be a DCFS investigation. There’s no maybe about it.

  393. PW, If you have not been down there, yes, in almost every sense, short creek is truly cut off from the rest of the country. It’s amazing.

    I share your fascination with Mark Hofmann. What a trip it was watching the mainstream church get led around by his little finger. Seems they were truly duped and hurt by him.

  394. Here are some interesting texts by various polygamous “prophets”. IMO there is a similarity to them besides giving the average person a headache with there ramblings. Note the similarities of language and thought, the claims of being the one mighty & strong, the davidic king, prophet, etc.etc.etc.

    David Koresh;

    Brain David Mitchell:

    Warren Jeffs:

    Note Koresh’s use of the virgin wives of Christ, Mitchell’s seven times seven and Jeffs celestial power to justify plural marriage. Note use use of end times threats by all above, the claim to secret knowledge to control followers, and claim to be God voice on Earth or be God themselves.

  395. I’m hoping the ad litem requests the investigation and that from now on it will be automatically be done on each case.

  396. All I can say at this point is , if the sheeple move out of Short Creek to the lands of refuge and stay there is ” Lozen Gayn ” , ( Yiddish ) Hebrew for “let them go ” …… lol other-Anon

  397. The suspense is killing me, PlygKid, if you can possibly describe what might have been on the seafood pizza. I might love it. Good night!

    Third Cousin said this on January 13, 2012 at 1:08 AM

    Tiny shrimp, crab meat, sun dried tomatos. I’m not sure it was ever on the menu. I think it was a pizza we joked about and made one and we liked it.

  398. And polygamy is getting trendy. I even get asked if im going to be on oprah or dr. phil.

    Its not hard to imagine in 10 or 20 years there will be a big debate about polygamy just like the big debate about gay marriage now.

    I’m not saying I support polygamy i’m just saying it could happen. If it does happen I will contribute the heavy publicity the plygs have getting to making it happen.

    If it does happen I want you to think back however many years and think of a fat fuzzy faced balding guy saying I told you so.

    Now who wants my autograph.

  399. You see yourself as fat fuzzy faced and balding –
    I think you should aim for something like Sean Connery if you are projecting to the future.

    I know that in my future I am going to be (am?) a total couger.

    But aside, I think (hope) you are wrong in your prediction based on the evidence in the Canadian Court case…..

  400. It’s not a prediction. It’s a probability. Who do you think I am warren?

    2 years ago I did say there would probably be a split in the creek. I also it would probably be 3 groups. I’m still waiting for willie to break away from Will Jessop or one of the other warren cheeses to get sick of him being in prison so i can claim 100% accurate.

    I mean…… thus verily it shall come to pass that the great and abomable nation of the world will come to think they accept my holy ways. In as much as to cause my holy law of the plurality of wives to be accepted among the great and abomable nation.

    amen n stuff.

  401. The Polygamist’s Daughter has a new post on her blog about the documentary she is working on :

  402. Remember the Sinatra song ” New York , New York ” ? I have a song for WSJ & Sheeple , ” if they can make there it in Zion they can make anywhere , it’s up to you New Jerusalem , New Jerusalem ” LOL other-Anon

  403. Looks like Horseshoe Bend School District boy’s new plural wife has petitioned the local court for a name change citing “religious reasons.”

    From the Emmett Messenger Index Classifieds:

    NOTICE OF HEARING ON NAME CHANGE (Adult) Case No. CV2011-872 IN THE DISTRICT COURT FOR THE THIRD JUDICIAL DISTRICT FOR THE STATE OF IDAHO, IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF GEM IN RE: Jana Lynn Reiman A Petition to change the name of Jana Lynn Reiman, now residing in the City of Horeseshoe Bend, State of Idaho, has been filed in the District Court in GEM County, Idaho. The name will change to Jana Lynn Cook. The reason for the change in name is: for religious reasons.. A hearing on the petition is scheduled for 1:30 o’clock p.m. on (date) January 23rd at the GEM County Courthouse. Objections may be filed by any person who can show the court a good reason against the name change. Date: 12-19-11 SHELLY GANNON CLERK OF THE DISTRICT COURT By Melissa Conklin Deputy Clerk December 28, 2011 Jan. 4, 11, 18, 2012 591807.

  404. Someone posted a comment that John Cook is not mormon. I have no idea.

  405. Well, I have heard of christian polygamy. Just do a google search of those two words and you’ll see what I mean. There’s all kinds of stuff about biblical polygamy too… it’s not all mormon based.

  406. Christian Polygamy = An oxymoron

  407. Doesn’t Winston have a tax trial coming up soon?

  408. Supposedly this month, PT.

  409. The Polygamist’s Daughter has a new post on her blog about the documentary she is working on :

    Born in Brooklyn said this on January 13, 2012 at 3:55 PM

    Thanks BIB, that’s like wow, reading about what’s going on in Colorado City, AZ is like a script from the twilight zone. And this is in the USA. Scary, it’s like something is brewing that’s going to be very bad.
    IMO YFZ is central what ever Warren & Lyle’s end game is. This a nightmare that has come here to Texas, a nightmare that doesn’t go away when one wakes up in the morning

  410. There are three sides to every story!

  411. Or… you can prophesize three things, only one of which will have a prayer..

    So…. Why not play it safe and claim an earthquake and volcano this year?

    Bound to happen somewhere!

  412. Looks like Idaho is joining a long line of those who don’t want to be bothered by the profit.–Polygamist-Letters/

  413. Does anyone know if someone is writing a book about the trial and beyond ?

  414. When you need to feel persecuted, just piss everybody off.

  415. WSJ’s obviously pining for Craigo’s Pizza.

  416. I think he’s craving for a little more than that. And a pink Cadillac.

  417. IMO:

    The FLDS don’t strive to be saints, they have shrived to be criminals and many are in our prisons here in Texas as evidence. The LDS Mormons, Roman Catholics and Baptists are far more Saints -Christians than the FLDS ever was or ever will be. The FLDS is nothing more criminal organization guised in the trappings of religion. It is nothing more than a crime family run by the Jeffs family, for the purpose of making Rulon Jeffs and his sons wealthy men, the UEP nothing more than a way to ensure the control of the Jeffs family over their little crime syndicate.

    Rest assured we have room for the rest of this crime syndicate in the Texas prison system. Warren Jeffs will die a forgotten old man, ending up just another forgotten convict buried at Peckerwood Cemetery in Huntsville,Texas. But at least he will end up with a small white cross with his name and inmate number.

  418. Here’s a report on the FLDS from D-News, it indicates that FLDS maybe breaking up with many members just saying no. Also of interest is a quote of Willie the Thug which sounds like what has been posted on this blog about Warren Jeffs being like the man behind the curtain, a reference to the Wizard of Oz movie. Makes one wonder if ole Willie has been reading this blog. Willie quote: “You never got to see the man behind the curtain and there were so many curtains and so much secrecy.”

    Read the entire article:

  419. Great reading, they got a data dump from Willie. Perhaps a little dramatic, lets remember just who we are talking about here.

    Still, it comes as no surprise that this shift and deep questioning of the “faith”
    is increasing.

    And yes there will be more confusion, as there are no more ringy dingy phone calls from der prophet till the Robins come home.

  420. I’m hoping that when the profit is allowed to begin making phone calls again he has a jailer on the extension and as soon as Lyle forwards it or puts it on speaker he gets cut off again and this time for 180 days. Let’s just keep playing double or nothing.

  421. If they cut in the line occasionally giving tips on proper English and warnings about making sheeple warnings, it would make him grow fur.

  422. First thought that came to mind after reading Willies comment about “the man behind the curtain” was this: You Big Dummy

    that is a cop out response and people deserve to know.

    I want answers. Those that have those answers already have my number. You can call. If I got the answers I could quit asking the questions. After 7 -8 years I think it is apparent that I am not giving up until I get them.


  423. Walton, could you list your questions here for those of us who haven’t seen them, don’t have your number, but ‘may’ have answers ?

  424. Of course Willie reads this blog.

    He’s not a total idiot.

    Hope you’re enjoying the freedom to gather information and make your own informed decisions, Willie.

    Here’s hoping that you and the other new PTBs allow others the same freedoms!

  425. Aonon @ 10:28 I hope so. And if the Walkin’ talkin’ Willie is reading, he knows I am not afraid of him. And he knows why.

    1.When Utah finally became a state there were promises made and papers signed and hands shaken with the US govt. I want to know who signed those papers and what agreements were made. And I want to see the papers. ( I think the only two places that have copies of those are the LDS Church and the govt.)

    2.When John Taylor had his 6-8 hour meeting, he also made promises to those in attendance. Promises not just by him but with the backing of the LDS Church. ( The LDS Church should have written accountings of his actions and some of the Church actions that confirm the support given to those in the “off-shoot” groups”. Not all members of the LDS Church supported that theory but enough of the “big wigs” did and do that the practice continues today. )

    According to the “rules” when a new Prophet/President comes into the picture the new rules must be followed according to how he and the 12 dictate them. Well someone forgot to tell the FLDS and other off shoot groups that all bets were off with Taylors promises. But they also forgot to tell those in charge of letting them in the back door. side doors and continue their support of those that are breaking the law.

    But most importantly they forgot to tell those who make up the LDS Church. The people. By continuing the teachings of Polygamy and allowing them back in they are going against the rules of their own.

    I think President Hinckley wanted to do something but he didn’t have enough time. But those that worked with him knew and know how important it was that this ongoing issue was hurting not only the Church but so many many people.

    3. I want to know if the kids are safe. And if they are located at the YFZ or any other make shift “camp”.

    If someone can answer 1&2 it could explain why the Federal Govt. hasn’t followed thru with charges being brought against certain folks. It would also explain the hemming and hawing with the UEP and Berry Knoll. Even Jimmy Bakker and other religious preacher men have had their property and such taken away.

    But it doesn’t explain the lack of protection for those outside of the circle.
    I can explain more if needed.

    I know for a fact that the FBI in certain areas work hard at getting things done. And I know for a fact that some of these folks are still working very hard. But I’ve not seen that in this case.


  426. Willie can read?

  427. Walton, why don’t you take your questions about the LDS/government agreements to some place where they might possibly be answered. No one that I know of on here has those answers. Those need to be directed to the Mormon Church and/or the government.

    I personally doubt that Hinckley wanted to do anything about the FLDS. Nor did anyone before him. The FLDS were living out the fantasy of the LDS, living in polygamy.

    As for whether or not the children are safe, the answer is no. As long as they are under the direction of Warren/Lyle, they are not safe.

  428. I asked those questions here because I thought that someone might have an answer. I guess I didn’t read in the message board guide lines that only certain questions could be asked. oh wait, there hasn’t been any guidelines concerning such things until…. now?

    Under the google search:
    FLDS Texas:Documents, reports, and photographs seized from the denomination or PRODUCED by government entities.

    Often times thru out the last couple of years those documents hit this site wayyyy before they ever hit some of media outlets. And a few times they hit this site before they touched the hands of those involved.

    now…as far as asking the Mormon Church. Seriously? Who would you ask? the kid answering the phone? the guy knocking on the door? Someone thru e-mail? how about the group from FAIR or FARM? Everyone has their own story. Name one person that can speak from the Church that speaks FOR the Church.

    The Govt.? which agency do you suppose would admit to being involved and not doing anything? lol and yet which branch can say they are involved and lay claim that they ARE doing anything.

    Maybe there will be another Dr. Drew/Dr.Phil news media blitz marathon that will have the answers. (cough cough)

  429. It all sounds pretty hopeless at times. What can anyone do who cares but has lost contact?

  430. Walton,

    Those are interesting questions, but why would you expect people here to have those answers? Do you think we are part of some grand conspiracy? Do you think important members of the FBI, federal prosecutors or high ups in the LDS church run this blog? I know lots of us here would like to know for sure why the feds keep failing to act. I think many of us have guesses about Utah. But nobody here is a spokesperson for any of those entitties. And nobody is giving you guidelines, it’s just common sense. We’re observers like you are.

  431. “I personally doubt that Hinckley wanted to do anything about the FLDS. Nor did anyone before him. The FLDS were living out the fantasy of the LDS, living in polygamy.”

    I am LDS. I do not have any fantasies about living in polygamy. I find it revolting.

    The LDS Church never “did” anything about the FLDS because they have no control whatsoever over them and nothing to do with them except shared historical roots. Back in the early days post-Manifesto there was definitely some wink-and-nod stuff going on regarding polygamy, but that was a hundred years ago. Irrelevant to the FLDS stuff.

  432. Betty we both have posted here for a long time. You’ve seen those that post and if you look at the numbers you can see there are many who don’t post.

    Right or wrong. I ask questions. Sometimes (most often) I come just straightout and ask. My intent is not to hurt anyone or any group but I ask because I just want to know.

    Do I think the people running this message board are part of a conspiracy? Quite honestly, I don’t know who owns the board. So, no I am not saying that.

    I know for certain that there are many people who have posted here that have a heart of gold and want to see Justice done and no one hurt.

    I also know that my questions can be answered by someone and or someones that read this board.

    There are groups out there that want nothing better than the FLDS to pack up and run away. Not all those that live there or belong or belonged to the FLDS are bad people. Ben Bistline still lives there. Isaac Wyler as well as many others. I don’t want anything to happen to them. or to anyone.

    Where is Gary Engles? Where is Buster? Do you ever wonder why they never spoke out about the books and other “stories”?

    The stories aren’t and haven’t been adding up. Gary Engles has never lied. Doran has never lied. Isaac Wyler has shared his opinions and he tells it as he has “seen it”.

    Where is Natalie? Kdee? Have you ever once seen ABC news of Utah ask the Gov. of Utah about the polygamy issues?

    How about Lindsay? Has she once been over to the social services and asked about the procedures concerning filling out forms for welfare?

    And Paul Murphy and his welcome to Polygamy Group? The Safety Net? What happened to the monies and items that they collected for those kids at the ranch? No investigation by anyone?

    Betty what do you suppose Utah is going to do with the info collected by Canada? Heck, this issue is bigger than Utah. What do you suppose the Govt. is going to do with that info.

    Not one tax fraud case out of the whole deal? Seriously?

    After all the evidence seized. After all the documented proof about so much and the headlines in the news consist of Warrens “revelations” or some BS story hitting ABC news in Utah.
    I told everyone awhile back that when Warrens trial ended I was going to start calling out BS stories. I have and I will continue to do so.


  433. I think that’s fair Franklin, but the church could try a little harder to help clean up the mess than it does.

  434. Franklin- the LDS Church has allowed some members from the splinter groups back into the LDS Heaven line up. Ervil LeBaron, Rulon Allred etc. by doing the baptisms for the dead and sealings.

    It has also been reported that the LDS Church hires those Polygamous contractors to build their temples/ meeting houses/ Churches.


  435. The LDS let plygs build thier churches out of the kindness of thier hearts? Now i’ve heard everything.

  436. Oh and as far as letting people back into the church its quite simple………..10% and your in.

  437. Walton,

    I’m just wondering how you can see people who don’t post.

  438. Walton, I am anon 10:28.
    I erroneously imagined you had something entirely different in mind regarding the answers you’re seeking. I’ll have to assume a lot of people know a lot about you and/or what you’re striving for. I confess, I’m not one of them or maybe I wouldn’t have asked. But for the life of me I don’t understand what you gain with having definitive answers to your first two questions.

    I am not the least knowledgeable person about either of those questions, but the answers you ‘d get from me would spiral deeply into a conspiratorial abyss. Conspiracy abounds at every single level you can possibly imagine. But I would bet you’ve already figured that out and that you’re stuck on that page. The difference between you and me is that I’ve let go… moved on. There are bigger fish to fry right here and now.

    You see, both of your first two questions will produce very different answers from different people — even very knowledgeable people. That’s because history is written by whoever wields leadership powers at each and any of those levels – government, church, county, town, and household. None of them will feel like you deserve or need answers. You’ll never never never get answers that will completely satisfy you let alone ever see signed papers with your own eyes.

    But my point is a reciprocal question: what would it mean to you if you did? Why is it important to you?

    As for the your third question – which IMO is the only relevant one – Proud Texan answered it exactly right. As long as Warren is alive and leading people who are willing to follow him, no child is safe. How do I know? I’ve been there!

  439. I wonder that too Betty.

    Warren Jeffs is in a Texas prison for life + 20 years. If there are any more trials for him it would be his bigamy trial. That would possible give him life without parole under the 3 strikes and your out rule. It is senseless for any other government entity to waste money investigating Warren Jeffs. That’s not saying they should investigate other members of the FLDS. I think they should. I know that the Rangers and other Texas Law Enforcement along with the Texas AG’s office are exhausted from the last 4 years. Who knows if they have it in them to continue and go after others. Utah and Arizona need to step up and carry the burden for a while.

  440. Franklin, you find a principle that Joseph Smith received a revelation from God about revolting? You find it revolting that the founder of your own church lived plural marriage, not to mention several apostles and many members? You find the way that God lives (according to Joseph Smith) revolting?

    Please, explain yourself.

  441. Don’t forget good ole Brigham Young.

  442. There is a little counter at the front of this site. It keeps track the number of visits. If there were 100 visits and 20 posts that means some people are just reading and not posting.
    Anon.@ 7:02 Conspiritorial abyss. indeed but not without reason.
    I understand that there would be different views from the two sides. yes, no, maybe. But if it was meant to be soo good … it really can’t be a good thing if people are getting hurt and others turn the blind eye.

    What good would it do to get the answer? because maybe, just maybe if people were up front about it all ( and I mean all of it) that things can be worked out. The Govt. has signed deals with differenet groups in the past. What happened so long ago doesn’t mean that it is a good thing today.

    If the Govt. was involved with the LDS then I could put to rest some of the theories I have going on. But as it is, I don’ t have a problem with Big Brother as long as he looks like a Texas Ranger, talks like a Texas Ranger and acts like a Texas Ranger.

    But if he looks anything like the character Shurtleff who turns the blind eye while announcing that he isn’t going to do anything then I must say I have a problem with that. And it isn’t all Shurtleff fault. It comes from the top down. ( Where is the FBI?)

    As far as the FLDS dressing differently- so what. That isn’t a bad thing. Have you ever seen a nun wearing the long gown and thing on her head? Or a priest in his long robe? If anything at all it generates conversation and it makes people stop and take notice. Reflect on their own beliefs. Not such a bad thing imo.

    Anon. @ 7:02 Nice to meet you. And thank you for sharing. Your insight and personal experience can only help change things for the better.

  443. The LDS let plygs build thier churches out of the kindness of thier hearts? Now i’ve heard everything.

    PlygKid said this on January 16, 2012 at 6:22 PM

    There was a woman who did research and actually lived with some members. she wrote about it and shared the info. Can’t remember her name but the link is here some where.

  444. Utah and Arizona need to step up and carry the burden for a while.

    Proud Texan said this on January 16, 2012 at 7:05 PM

    Shurtleff said that they are waiting for the paperwork from Texas. But who is to say that he would do anything even if he did have it. He will “investigate” it all right past the statue of limitaions deadline.


  445. Walton, are you saying that you think the federal government signed some sort of agreement over 100 years ago saying that polygamists won’t be prosecuted for any crime, not even tax evasion, ever? It sure sounds like you are insinuating a conspiracy between the US govt and the LDS church that has lasted several generations? And if there were such a thing, you think that someone would TELL you that????? With all due respect, are you off your meds?

  446. Shurtleff has all the information he needs to pursue charges in Utah, he just doesn’t have the balls to do it.

  447. I know… it does look like I am in loopy land. The only medicine I take is a Motrin now and then.

    I don’t want to say that is how I see it. But that is how I see it.

    If years and years ago the Church signed up with a let’s share plan the Govt. might have thought that they would keep everything under close supervison. As time went on the watchers quit watching.

    Would they tell me that? 🙂 ( I was actually hoping that someone would tell me that is no way no how possible. And that they had a better explaination as to why things are NOT being done.)

    Even if Shurtleff does have everything and does nothing, that doesn’t explain away the lack of ooomp by the tax man or the federal govt.

    Why did the Federal Govt stop looking into the welfare fraud in 1994? No charges no nothing.

  448. Little plyg, little plyg, let me in!!! Not by the hair…. Couldn’t resist, gotta provide each other some comic relief now and then.

  449. “I personally doubt that Hinckley wanted to do anything about the FLDS. Nor did anyone before him. The FLDS were living out the fantasy of the LDS, living in polygamy.”
    Proud Texan said this on January 16, 2012 at 4:28 PM

    I am LDS. I do not have any fantasies about living in polygamy. I find it revolting.

    The LDS Church never “did” anything about the FLDS because they have no control whatsoever over them and nothing to do with them except shared historical roots. Back in the early days post-Manifesto there was definitely some wink-and-nod stuff going on regarding polygamy, but that was a hundred years ago. Irrelevant to the FLDS stuff.”
    Franklin said this on January 16, 2012 at 5:54 PM

    I would agree with your statement Franklin, think that PT was out of line with that statement. Knowing LDS church members here in Texas,none that I know support polygamy, implying that “the FLDS were living out the fantasy of the LDS, living in polygamy, ” is ludicrous at best and quite asinine.

    PT common sense tells us that if we want polygamy brought under control, and end the the horrible crimes it creates we need the help of the LDS. They are the largest religious group in Utah, they have the power to influence officials-pressure them stop setting on their hands and do something.

    If you go to a Catholic community and want their help you don’t bash the Pope, if you go to a Jewish community and want their help you don’t bash them because they don’t believe in Christ.

    One of the reason the anti-polygamy community seems to never get anywhere is the rabid anti LDS attitude.

    PT put yourself in the shoes of the LDS member, after reading the posts about LDS here, the church’s founder, are you going come back and learn about the evils of polygamy? No you are going to think what a bigoted hateful bunch of people. You will tell your fellow church members what a horrible bunch of folks on that blog.

  450. As an LDS member I fully accept that JS and BY taught and practiced polygamy. Also accept that after the 1890 manifesto there was a gray period where some polygymous unions were still created. It took about 14 years before the creation of polygamous unions was completely done away with. However, I like Franklin , have absolutely no desire to have more than one wife on earth or after death. I believe it is possible to be aware of some of the dark side of LDS history, polygamy, Mountain Meadow Massacere, etc and to still fully accept the LDS church as it is now. Probably all religions have some dark sides in their history, the inquitistions in Spain, the racism in some of the Southern US protestant churches, etc.

  451. Well, Walton, at least you have a sense of humor.

  452. But chemist, hasn’t the principle only been suspended in this life? Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine states it has merely been suspended only until the Lord rescinds the ban on the practice on this earth (but perhaps not until the 1000 years of peace) and there is no question that it will resume as well in the afterlife?

    This is honestly my understanding from having grown up 5th generation LDS.

  453. TC: My understanding is that “Mormon Doctrine” was not published by the LDS church and that it is not accepted as being “canonized” by the church. The church does not fully accept everything in it. I would not use it as a reference for a talk or lesson I gave in the church. Since some men in this life have been sealed to more than one woman (only after the death of a former sealeed wife) it is apparent that the church believes polygamy will exist in the post mortal life. Again, I have no intention of living a polygymous lifestyle in this life or the next life.

  454. I just noticed that there is significant criticism of Mormon Doctrine. Thanks for pointing out that it is not considered official doctrine. Also, I did not know that it was okay to choose not to practice plural marriage in the next life. Thanks for your input.

  455. TC; Don’t get me wrong. I have a copy of Mormon Doctrine as well as many other LDS books from Deseret Book and Seagull Book. .Enjoy browsing through them, but would never use them as a reference for talks or lessons.
    I don’t really know whether polygamy in mortal life has just been suspended or not. Have not heard anytghig official on that.

  456. The LDS let plygs build thier churches out of the kindness of thier hearts? Now i’ve heard everything.

    PlygKid said this on January 16, 2012 at 6:22 PM

    There was a woman who did research and actually lived with some members. she wrote about it and shared the info. Can’t remember her name but the link is here some where.

    Anonymous said this on January 16, 2012 at 8:40 PM

    I can’t say how everyone from there as been treated by the lds planning commitee but I have been involved in building quite a few churches both when I was a plyg and now. My treatment was exactly the same. Drop your price 2 grand then pay us an additional 2 grand for the priveledge of building our church.

  457. Having once lived it myself, it was always my understanding that practicing plural marriage is not required of everyone. In fact it would only be required of relatively few.

    To repeat what I was taught, it’s required of 144,000 righteous men out of the billions ever born on this earth who will be chosen to become gods in their own right. They, and a few others, must have righteously practiced plural marriage during their mortal life.

    From their religious standpoint, you see how crazy things can get when so many fallible mortal men get all worked up over becoming a god over their own planet. Well…. need I say more?

  458. ………. And with the free labor, Shortcreek businesses could do that.

    IRT Walton’s Q’s.

    Chemist, is a long time friend and I respect him and consider him a person of honor.

    Franklin, I do not know but dont expect anything different.

    However, MY personal experience, in travels through Utah, reading the news, talking to FLDS, working with LDS, meeting Senator Hatch, and reading Mike Leavitt, Mark Shurtleff, and about every book on the subject including these gems…

    …Prophets Prey

    …Answer Them Nothing


    …No Man knows my History

    …Under the Banner of Heaven –

    Gives one a pretty good eyeball on the situation.

    In a nutshell, ex Gov Leavitt is on record as saying “We arent going to go after polygamists, they are just living their religion” or words to that effect. (you cant make it simpler – this is the Utah and its significant other’s thought process)

    Shortly thereafter, Tom Green went on the Talk show circuit. Well thats history.

    Shurtleff is on record as saying they cant really go after polygamy, not enough resources, unless there are abuses involved (more lip service)

    Isnt it odd that Texas can prosecute a dozen abusers in a couple years and Utah can hardly do a handful, over the past 100?

    Walton, I highly highly highly recommend starting with “Answer them Nothing” as it details more than the others, our Government’s investigation and preparedness to pull the trigger, until a call from the top told them to stand down for now.

    I dont think there was any historical agreement, handshake or otherwise to allow polygamy to continue in Utah or to guarantee that no charges be brought for this or that reason.

    It was simply a trust issue.

    You get an agreement to become a State, however truthful that agreement is or is not you have the agreement, and yes there were results to the Church’s prevarication, in that Congress would not admit Utah Senator Smoot his seat in Congress due to as mentioned before, continued LDS polygamist unions into the 20th Century.

    Now, today, we have the RCMP nosing through files building a case for international child sex slave traffic, and its as obvious as the nose on our face the Govt has all the info and as of today hasnt done squat.

    But there is always tomorrow.

  459. New thread perhaps? We’re at 459.

  460. I really hate quoting Wiki.. However, see in the article, another Utahn, B.H. Roberts, was sent to the House and was found to be a polygamist – this after the 1890 manifesto of course – and was denied his seat. Utah remained without representation until then prophet Joseph Smith Jr (not the original prophet) issued a second “We really mean it now!” no-more-polygamy Manifesto.


    “Controversy over religious affiliation ( and err continued polygamy )

    His election sparked a bitter four-year battle in the Senate on whether Smoot was eligible or should be allowed to serve, due to his position as a Mormon apostle. Many were convinced that his association with the church disqualified him from serving in the United States Senate.

    Only a few years earlier, another prominent Utah Mormon, B.H. Roberts, had been elected to the House of Representatives but was denied his seat on the basis that he practiced plural marriage (polygamy).

    Smoot did not practice plural marriage, and the LDS Church had officially renounced the practice in an 1890 Manifesto before Utah became a state. However, the Salt Lake Tribune reported that church leaders continued to secretly approve of new, post-Manifesto plural marriages.[1] As a result, the Senate began an investigation into Smoot’s eligibility.[2] The Smoot Hearings began on January 16, 1904.

    The hearings included exhaustive questioning into the continuation of plural marriage within the state of Utah and the LDS Church, and questions on church teachings, doctrines and history.

    Although Smoot was not a polygamist, the charge by those opposed to his election to the Senate was that he could not swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States while serving in the highest echelons of an organization that sanctioned law breaking.”

  461. Tale of the second Manifesto, put out by Smith jr. in an attempt to get Smoot allowed in as a Congressman.



    In 1890, church president Wilford Woodruff had issued the initial Manifesto, in which he suspended the LDS Church’s long-standing practice of plural marriage. However, after the Manifesto, it became clear that a number of church members, including members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, were continuing to enter into or solemnize polygamous marriages.[2][3][4]

    Smith issued the Second Manifesto near the beginning of the Reed Smoot hearings, United States Congressional hearings into whether LDS Church Apostle Reed Smoot should be permitted to sit as a United States Senator from Utah; Smoot’s opponents alleged that the LDS Church hierarchy’s continued tolerance or encouragement of plural marriage should exclude Smoot from sitting in the Senate.

  462. A Texan,

    We have two states with lots of LDS presence and influnce, Utah and Arizona. And yet we have judges in both states giving sentences of DAYS for “marrying” girls underage or sexually assaulting your own daughters. How do you explain that? In some cases, the judges were LDS. I don’t know the reason why, whether it’s living out their fantasies, being sympathetic to living an extreme religious code, being literally cousins, or what, but you’ve got to admit that if there were men taking their 4th wife’s 15 year old daughter as their 9th wife in some other state, the man would get more than a 10 day sentence and no monitoring via sex offender’s list. Where as a non religious latino man in Las Vegas having sex with his live in girl friend’s 15 year old daughter will do serious time and end up on that list. You can fuss about the reasons, but the actions are pretty clear. Those two states go easy on polygamist even when they commit other crimes.

  463. Sorry, typing faster than I was thinking. I realize that Las Vegas is not in either of those states. But my argument is still sound. There’s something going on there no matter how you want to explain it.

  464. No you are going to think what a bigoted hateful bunch of people. You will tell your fellow church members what a horrible bunch of folks on that blog.

    A Texan said this on January 16, 2012 at 11:35 PM

    If the shoe fits.

  465. Well PK if the shoe fits indeed, did you read what Betty wrote?

    Utah and Arizona have earned their stripes.

  466. I’m not going to aruge that lol. Utah and Az has been very lean with the FLDS. Why?………….how should I know. Does everyone here have the right to not like it? Sure they do. Does their many years of rambling about it make little old me think they are bunch of hatefull people …..yup! Do I have the right to think so………you tell me.

  467. PK

    I think what you have seen is that people hate the sin and not the sinner.

    Oh, except for a special few I reckon. Warren earns more points than others for that.

    And the rest, its frustration. Frustration that a couple states allow this wife abusing child molesting nonsense to foment through the decades.

    This isnt my opinion or anyone else’s opinion that this is allowed to continue, its just fact.

  468. Please continue on General Discussion #70

    Thanks, Admin

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