General Discussion #67 – Warren’s Latest Revelations

Merril Jessop aka Deadbeat Dad’s mug shot from Huntsville.

A map showing the location of various destructive events that WSJ is predicting to befall the US if he doesn’t get his “get out of jail free” card.

The map is from Lindsay Whitehurst’s blog at the Salt Lake Tribune.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/52914741-191/jeffs-revelations-revelation-sent.html.csp

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on November 16, 2011.

414 Responses to “General Discussion #67 – Warren’s Latest Revelations”

  1. Love the map!

    On another note, and to carry the question forward, someone asked in the previous Discussion (#66) if anyone knows what that semi-circular structure is on the YFZ Ranch. I’d like to know too. It’s nicely pictured in the Pilot’s latest photos. http://www.eldoradoflds.us/yfz-11-10-2011/

  2. I’m curious about the little white house that’s across the street from the new house that was built for Warren.

  3. On a shallow note, Troy Aikman got divorced back in April. How were they able to keep that so quiet?

  4. The semi-circular, probably bound to eventually be actually circular, who knows. But given the photos I am tail-between-legs in terms of assuming the structure we speculated on earlier, the “water tower,” is such, as it has windows, which I certainly have yet to see on a water tower ever, anywhere.

  5. The tower with windows in it ? There are many speculations on what it might eventually become , Could be a watch tower to watch the inmates at YFZ ranch who knows ? WSJ’s predictions/ revelations are plagaerized stories I’ve heard before nothing new there . >>>> other-Anon

  6. I don’t think the semi circular structure will become a complete circle given earlier pictures of it. I think those lines at the ends going inward indicate that the wall will continue that way.

  7. To be completely fair, I believe the circular structure is going to be a water tank. there is a similar one built in the crick. on the tower, who knows.

  8. Interesting Yehaaa. Can someone in the Crick get a picture of that water tank please.

  9. Thought maybe it was going to be some kind of stadium or elaborate seating for listening to piped in sermons…..

  10. http://g.co/maps/esva5 the round structure near the road is a concrete water tank. it’s buried though. I think that this one they are building in Texas is similar, but just above ground.

  11. The pics depict a half circle foundation – Whats odd is the snazzy fence that is facing the “Tower” structure, and surrounding the semi circle structure.

    Due to it being a semi circle, I doubt its for water, especially with such a fancy fence. There is some significance there. Maybe they now need a cover over the statue so the pilot cant take photos.

    Because that would be too much fun!

  12. It isn’t close to the tower structure. The tower is north and east of the Temple, this is west and a bit south of the temple. In fact, I know the neighbor who has the property next to the YFZ on this side. It is very close to his property line.

  13. Here’s an interesting story on Peckerwood Hill. http://www.houstonpress.com/1995-04-06/news/down-on-peckerwood-hill/

  14. Here’s an interesting story on Peckerwood Hill. http://www.houstonpress.com/1995-04-06/news/down-on-peckerwood-hill/

    Proud Texan said this on November 17, 2011 at 9:32 PM

    Yes PT, that maybe Warren’s future resting place. The longer Warren lives the greater the likelihood that Peckerwood Hill cemetery will be here he ends up. As time goes by his grip over the FLDS will weaken, with him dying a forgotten old man, buried at Peckerwood.

    If Warren dies soon while there are still loyal followers, then the “statue” could be where he’s buried at YFZ.

  15. Warren Jeffs continues to borrow trouble, seems Galveston, Texas county officials are opening an investigation of Jeffs. Appears that he sent a book meant to intimidate to a judge in that Texas county.

    From the Galveston Daily News:

    GALVESTON — A book called “Proclamation,” containing scripture-like passages from the polygamist sect leader Warren Steed Jeffs, arrived in a Galveston judge’s mail this week, prompting an investigation.

    Read the rest of article:

    http://galvestondailynews.com/story/272826

    Galveston is located on an island around 2 miles off the Texas coast, which is one of the reason the Texas prison hospital is located there, the bridge and ferry to the island can easily closed off if a prisoner escapes, forcing an escapee to swim or steal a boat.

    Warren must be pissed because he was held there, sending messages to intimidate judges will only get you that third felony conviction, three strikes you’re out!

  16. Perhaps warren’s antics will finally get the attention of the FBI and other federal agencies. We can only hope that it happens.

  17. chemist there has been plenty of reasons for the FBI and other agencies to have gotten involved long ago. And the proof has been there to back up any claims.

    The silence and lack of action is imo very telling as to how far in this all goes.

    7 years. Just a few months ago Willie was stuffing mail boxes with his own intimidating letters and the Feds did nothing.

    There has been incident after incident of hidden threats and “warnings” that it would have been nice to see an agency stand up and announce that they won’t put up with it. But they didn’t.

    On thread 65 Just IN made a post talking about the things that happened in the 70’s. I’ve looked and looked and I don’t know what he was talking about. But the post scared me.

    In thread 66 a post was made about guns and Lyle. And that not only has me scared but I have to wonder why posts like that aren’t taken seriously and some type of action is done.

    I still believe in the good guys. And I believe the good guys are still trying to make things right. But I need to see them. I’ve seen enough hat tricks to last a life time and I just really really need to know the “good guys” are working for everyone.

    As far as any construction going on at the YFZ or any place else, speculation can only be an outline for disapointment. I am tired of the mind games.

    Walton

  18. Walton: Agreed that the feds have had ample cause to act for a long time, but have not done so. IMO, they see the flds as a low priority situation.

  19. chemist- I am afraid.

    When Just IN mentioned the 70’s as I mentioned I went searching to find out what happened in the 70’s in Utah and Arizona. What little I found was that there was a lot of talk about jumping the cliff per se. Pack your bags and wait to be lifted type talk.

    I also saw a clip on the gang issues inside Salt Lake and areas concerning different gang members and belonging to the LDS Church. One of the reasons it got out of control soo bad is because everyone tried to keep it all under the radar and out of the news.

    Innocent people were hurt.

    If all the pushing and shoving are making people respond with Warrens threats hanging in the air what are their options?

    I don’t want any one hurt. Mentally or physically. I myself am afraid. Seriously.

    I am also afraid to say things. But the trouble is I am not sure what things I shouldn’t be saying. And it goes against everything I know as far as being able to help someone if I think they might get hurt.
    I have to speak out. But who can a person trust? Who or what agency can be trusted? By doing nothing they have put themselves in that group that can not be trusted. imo

    Walton

  20. Walton- and anyone else who feels upset about warren’s latest trash-

    Dee Ignatin seems like a very no-nonsense, gutsy gal- she has the Americans Allied Against Polygamy website. What about contacting her with your concerns about what warren has had mailed to offices this time? I would think she would be a good ear to bend about it.
    Also, you know, from my perspective, this whole plyg problem in our nation is at root a spiritual matter. Honestly, and not to get off the track here, but one of the reasons I think I have stayed so interested in these things for 7 years is that , once my attention was gripped by the fact that polygamy is taught as necessary to please God, and this is being taught to thousands of young children in this nation as we speak- I couldn’t let the whole thing go after that. It’s just wrong from the git-go. Not a bit of truth to that idea, (or most of the rest of what they teach their babies every day, but I don’t want to stay off track here.)

    Prayer DOES change things for the better, many times. What about contacting Doris Hanson at Shield and Refuge website- she is an exceptional lady (grew up in the Kingston clan and left at age 18, like over 40 years ago.) Yes, Doris does have a Christian program and colleagues, but she knows all about the polygamy thing, and how long it can be for many people who have lived in it to ever want to bother with religion stuff again- I am just making a suggestion for some real emotional support where people are talking weekly about all the polygamy issues, in a safe situation. Doris never announces the location of the meetings on her show. A person has to contact Shield and Refuge and get the info from them if they want to check out the support group.

    Doris has tons of good contacts. She knows all about the “threats type of talk,” she gets angry emails and what-not often from lds and plyg group members but she’s a real trooper.
    Best wishes, Walton- just remember, warren ain’t god, he never was even close. If anything at all were to happen now that his stuff has been distributed, trust me, it’s not anything to do with him- it would be just the same stuff that might have happened if warren wasn’t even around.
    The real God is still on the throne and always will be.

  21. Rebecca Kimbel does public speaking also- she has been putting her programs on youtube lately , maybe she would have some ideas. She’s very forthright and courageous, also grew up in polygamy, went through real trauma within the group as a young girl. Her youtube channel is RebeccaKimbel. I think many of her programs do not get many views, but she might have some encouraging things to say if contacted, and some good suggestions.
    Kaziah Hancock is also a very strong Christian now, and she tells it like it is with all the plyg stuff. She is humorous and really on-target when she gives interviews. All these women are probably already getting contacts from people about warren’s “revelations.” Don’t forget, Walton- warren wants to instill fear in people. He’s been doing that for so long. It’s a big part of his god game.

    His latest papers are just a way for him to pass the time, of which he has plenty now. I was wondering why we hadn’t gotten any more reports lately of him fasting his way out of his cage. He’s been writing down his thus-saith-the-Lord stuff again, and it ain’t any more true thus-saith-the-Lord stuff than my latest order at Mickey D’s. And I risk indigestion from both.

  22. Perhaps warren’s antics will finally get the attention of the FBI and other federal agencies. We can only hope that it happens.
    chemist said this on November 18, 2011 at 12:27 PM

    On that note:

    When Warren was arrested in Nevada, we now know that the audio tape of Jeffs raping a 12-year-old girl in front of witnesses was among the evidence seized. According to Sam Brower in Prophet’s Prey, Judge Shumate was given a transcript of that tape and promptly ruled it inadmissible in Jeffs Utah trial because it was too “inflammatory”.

    What is the difference between witnessing an assault on a 10-year-old boy and listening to a tape in which a 12-year-old girl is raped?

    I’m happy to see the outrage over those who failed to take action to protect children from Sandusky at Penn State.

    However, I don’t understand why there was no similar moral imperative for the FBI, judges – anyone and everyone who was privy to the tape – to take immediate action not just against Jeffs – but against the entire FLDS leadership in light of the fact that the rape was clearly a communal, religious event!

  23. Texas officials have conferred with the FBI Joint Task force over the Warren Jeffs “revelations”. Here’s more in this report from the Houston Chronicle.

    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Galveston-judge-receives-polygamist-s-prophesies-2276169.php

    I don’t know what the FLDS is trying to achieve by mailing this stuff to officials. All they are doing is drawing more attention from LE, which will result in more of them doing time in Huntsville,TX. Perhaps they think the Texas Dept. of Criminal Justice is the new Zion, they want do do hard time in the big house.

  24. I’ve always has a problem with the “too inflammatory” rulings in some cases. It seems to ignore critcal evidence contained within. Of course what was on the tape was outrageous…as were wj’s recorded actions. But, its evidence of what he did to these children…why sheild it? Why protect the monster? Then I remember…its Utah who protected and Texas who slayed (metaphorically speaking) the monster.

  25. http://yfrog.com/o0d77gj

    Mugshot of the ole Deadbeat Dad himself!!!

  26. He looks like golum

  27. Canada case ruling next week-lets hope that the courts in that country make the right choice.

    Here’s more:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/52948817-191/case-canadian-ruling-bombshell.html.csp

  28. He looks like golum

    hellohellogoodbye said this on November 18, 2011 at 9:35 PM

    That’s true although he could be mistaken for Frankenstein! Merril the wife beaters true nature revealed. Thank you PT for posting the link

  29. Gretchen and Jerrie thanks for responding. I know KDee is a very strong person and that Doris has done a wonderful job clearing up some major issues for many who question their faith.

    I also have a lot of respect for Kaziah and Rebecca Kimbel and all that they have done to get the word out.

    I might not believe in any organized or even unorganized religion any more but my faith in God hasn’t been altered.

    And even with all the “hints and warnings” that have been given, I still believe that there are really good people in different agencies that are working to do things the right way. But I wish they would make themselves known.

    I wouldn’t want to involve anyone who might get hurt. I want to believe that Texas will protect everyone. And I still think that Texas should place a couple of those Texas Rangers in every state. People need to feel safe and they need to know which agency they can trust.

    Walton

  30. I checked out the Houston article and it stated that they would be talking with the FBI task force on terrorism. Interesting that Paul Murphy stated that their was no history of violence from this group and he isn’t concerned. If he goes back and looks at any footage when Utah put the man hunt out for Warren he will see the Attorney General issued high concern and warnings about the “history” and safety issues concerning these groups.

    In the following article they fined the guy for sending out such things. I hope they fine Warren for using the mail service to spread his doom and gloom warnings.

    $250,000 for each document sent and given to agencies in each state that the documents were sent to help the families of those who lost LE members in the line of duty. Including a hefty check to the mail carriers association.

    And then…I would love to see the photos of Vaughn Taylor and Barlow handing the checks made payable to each state LE official involved.

    http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Inmate-Charged-with-Sending-Threats-to-Judge-132573633.html

    Walton

  31. I don’t believe in WSJ’s “revelations” any more than anyone here does and wish he’d stop already. But I’m not clear how his saying them could be criminal in some way. Can someone spell that out for me? Was WSJ actually directly threatening anyone? (I can’t bring myself to read through all the documents–I just skimmed a bit) Would the idea be that it was a kind of harrassment? Someone saying that they are personally going to bomb a government building etc. is different than someone saying that they believe God’s judgments will come upon that person, no?

    Freedom of speech is no less sacred just because the person speaking says things we don’t agree with. The First Amendment means that we have to put up with crazy people saying crazy things, horrible and demented people saying horrible and demented things, because it also means that voices of truth can speak up against powers that be, however weak or unpopular those voices may be. This is the beauty of America. If we start thinking that we can stop people from saying what they believe just because it’s crazy and aggravating, we are making the FIrst Amendment just another victim to Warren Jeffs.

    Again, I’m not saying he shouldn’t be criminally investigated/prosecuted if there was some kind of direct threat or harrassment aspect to his revelations that would fall within the scope of criminal laws. I just think we have to be really careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater in this whole WSJ thing. I won’t defend the horrible crimes committed by WSJ for an instant, and I won’t defend his beliefs or his “revelations.” But I will defend his right to have his own beliefs and to voice those beliefs. If we lose that freedom, we lose America.

  32. “I clean my gun…

    And dream of Galvestonnnn”

    60’s hit by Glen Campbell, complete with that nostalgic vinyl sound.

    Also, good view of the County Courthouse and Texas State Plaque.

    And Glen Campbell was so young then.

    http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/oIUPCfIihQ4?rel=0

  33. Rebecca, one thing that happened in court was that Warren stood up and said that they wrath of God would befall the Court if the prosecution of him didn’t stop. He did this in front of the Judge and not the jury. After he finished the Judge told him that he couldn’t threaten the jury. He responded that he was merely relating what he had been told and the Judge told him not to relate. (or something along those lines). After that whenever he felt to the urge to spew out a revelation he asked that the jury be dismissed.

    I think how it can be defined as a threat is that he is saying bad things will happen to people if they don’t quit putting him and his cult followers in jail. That is a very specific instance. He’s not saying that bad things in general are going to happen, he’s relating it to something very specific. If it was just a general revelation that a volcano was going to erupt in Utah that’s one thing, but to say that it is going to erupt if he isn’t let out of jail is a different story.

    I don’t think anyone is believing it any more than they believe any of his other prophecies. It only continues to show what a nut job he really is and how nutty his cult is for continuing to follow him.

  34. Rebecca,

    There are a lot of things wrong with these threat letters.

    While they dont specify any threat directly, they imply harm will come if these demands are not met.

    As historically other cults have brought harm to LE and even fellow parishioners or exes, they have to be taken seriously.

    Since they were sent to law makers and Judges, instead of on some blog, there is added layer of concern. I dont know how the law addresses this, but I do know this –

    When its time for any parole hearings for ANY of these FLDS to come up, judges will remember these threats and take them into the context of no remorse or false remorse.

    To date not one FLDS convict has shown a shred of remorse – this indicates they would be willing to re-offend.

    The letters in the least will stack the cards against them.

  35. Those pointy ears on Merril are so nasty –

    enough to scare away all the kids for miles around…

    Good thing there arent any!

    And I notice he isnt smiling anymore. Did if finally sink in?

  36. Well, I’m with Rebecca on this one. My husband’s first wife is crazy in a religious way; she has received public assistance due to doctor documented mental illness so this is not me exaggerating the situation. For a decade or so, every now and again she would get on this kick of sending us letters. The letters would be long involved things in which she would pray to God that we be destroyed in the here and now. Pretty specific ways of us being destroyed, like by fire, or by being mugged or killed during a crime against us, or car accident or horrible lingering illness. In one letter of about 40 type written pages, she wrote to God as if he were a judge in a court and she was presenting her case about why we should be 1) damned and 2) destroyed. Not only are the letters themselves unnerving, but she HAND DELIVERED them over a distance of several hundred miles and put them in our mail box. I finally had enough and called the county sheriff. He read the letters and said “I ain’t no expert, but, ma’am, this is crazy stuff here. But it’s not illegal. ” So I took the pile of letters to a lawyer, paid him 100 bucks an hour to read them and got the same answer. Asking God to kill us is not considered a real threat under the law. Apparently, the law wants to stay out of the question as to who God will listen to in this situation, I don’t know. But in my state, anyway, telling you that God will smite you is not illegal.

  37. Verily I say unto my punk bubba Merril, a volcano shall shear off all thine hair, a Tsunami of water shall wash out your mouth with soap, and a Cornucopia of prison food shall splatter thine plate all the rest of your natural born pervert days.

  38. I’ll point out though, that in my state, I could not get a restraining order against her until AFTER she had actually assaulted me and I had filed a formal complaint. I know this for sure because of working with domestic violence victims. Virginia is not a good place to live if you are a domestic violence victim or are being stalked. They wait until you are dead to take action.

  39. In the context of the trial, of course WSJ couldn’t say whatever he wanted, I understand that. The judge had to maintain order. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean you can saw whatever you want whenever you want to whomever you want in any manner you want. But it seems to me that the very essence of the First Amendment is that the government has no right to stop anyone from writing down their beliefs and sending them to public officials, unless they are giving specific, personal threats of actions that they actually have the ability to carry out. Someone threatening to shoot a public official would be specific and credible and ought to be seriously investigated. Someone saying that they will call down judgments from heaven in the form of earthquakes and tsunamis would be insane, but seems pretty harmless. What will they “investigage” about these “revelations,” anyway?

  40. Rebecca

    Keep in mind there were still a ton of laws they have broken that havent been addressed yet.

    This might inspire the Feds and Texas, as well as other states, to start taking action on them.

  41. Yes, I think the proclamations are a sign that he’s getting very annoyed about still being in jail, and we know that he has at least tried to arrange blood atonement and used that threat on his own people. Given the behavior of other such leaders in the past, it’s completely believable that he could escalate to directing real violence (if he has not already). If that idea helps motivate states or the Fed to finally take action on some of the crimes they now about, then all the better.

  42. Yes, I think the proclamations are a sign that he’s getting very annoyed about still being in jail,

    Betty said this on November 19, 2011 at 10:29 AM

    I agree. That is where the potential threat lies.

    As long as he still has control over his followers, it is a lot more fun to use them to cause trouble for his enemies than to stare at prison walls day after day.

    He is going to do what he needs to do to show he is still a player. If causing volumes of prophetic threats to land on the desks of LE and other officials across the country isn’t enough – he could choose to escalate.

    He has a lifelong history of testing his power to see how much he can get away with. He has shown he is capable of causing an impressive amount of harm both to and through his followers.

    It is not a good idea to overreact and give him too much attention – but it is worth paying attention to any shifts in strategy…

    That said, I do think Stamp makes a great point about the letters working against the FLDS.

    It’s hard to keep up the “Odd, but harmless – and really just good clean family folk in our own way” image when your leader is threatening everyone with badge or gavel with the wrath of God. As long as he doesn’t shift to anything more sinister, I think they should let him keep weaving his own rope!

  43. Also Betty – do you currently work with domestic violence victims in your town? If so – I’d like to get in touch with you to learn more about the resources available. I think I mentioned I have family there. I’m on the other side of the country and have trouble tracking down information from a distance at times….

    My email is jerrietrader@gmail.com. That is an alias. Not my real name. Not my main e-mail. If I hear from you, I’ll give you the real one.
    Thanks

  44. I am all about protecting the First Ammendment. And imo everyone has the right to tell their story.

    But keep in mind that Warren Jeffs has those inside his circle that have Govt. contracts and some of those include using explosives.

    Threats can be made without saying it straightout. When the fear is already there letters like this add to it all imo.

    I am not saying that he would actually do it but there are those who have tagged themselves along with this group that have the “history” and the tools to do harm.

    Swapp. LeBaron, posee comitatius, Little Shell Pembina Band and others

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705345734/Judge-resentences-ex-FLDS-man-convicted-of-threatening-IRS.html

    Walton

  45. Here’s an update from the Houston paper on Jeffs “revelations”.

    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Area-judges-mailed-prophesies-of-imprisoned-2277242.php

  46. Verily I say unto my wayward homie Warren Jeffs, thine lies are burning up when exposed to fresh air, a tidal wave of convictions shall place thee and thine bretheren into the terrestrial CelloSteel Kingdom, and thine wicked lifestyle shall be run over by a white horse ridden by a Texas Ranger.

  47. To WSJ , Merrill , Leroy , Mike , Alan , Raymond & other idiots of the Warrenite crowd , karma bit you in the butt & took a big chunk out of you ! lol >> other-Anon

  48. For all interested, the LDS Church recently put a massive archive of Joseph Smith’s papers online. These are digital images of the complete historical documents. The project has been endorsed by the National Historical Publications and Records Commission, signifying “that the highest scholarly standards are employed in all phases of the work.”

    http://josephsmithpapers.org/

    I know there are folks among us inclined to believe that the LDS Church tries to hide historical information or whitewash history. I believe otherwise.

  49. I think the LDS church is trying to get more information out now and in recent years. The publication of Massacere at Mountain Meadows by LDS authors and using LDS archives is a good example of the LDS church opening up. Some years ago the church was not as open as it has become more recently.

  50. Rebecca, thanks for that link. It makes for interesting reading.

  51. Out of curiosity , does anybody know how many of WSJ ‘s wives are actually his fathers wives ? Apparently WSJ practices incest .>>>> other-Anon

  52. BIB: We have the first two volumes of the Joseph Smith papers and also find them interesting.

  53. Other Anon, the wives of his father that Warren married. Most now believe that he married them off to his father knowing his father wasn’t able to perform any longer so as to hold them for himself at a later time.

  54. Website reports that FBI Joint Task Force has opened investigation into warren Jeffs/FLDS.

    http://www.ticklethewire.com/2011/11/21/fbi-joint-terrorism-task-force-probing-book-of-apocalypse-sent-to-tex-judges-by-polygamist/

    The FLDS just might have opened a Pandora’s box with this “revelation”.

  55. Thank You, A Texan; very interesting. I do hope that warren has opened the federal Pandora’s box.

  56. I don’t think warren was holding too many dames of rulon’s for a later time- I think he was already actually “holding ’em”. for awhile before daddy r bit the dust…
    In Carolyn Jessop’s book Escape, she relates how Naomi ( of red escalade and road trip fame) paid Carolyn a visit at merrill’s home, and was chattering to her about how warren had told a bunch of women in rulon’s circle that they had endometriosis, so they were therefore taking birth control pills as therapy for the endo. I don’t recall the precise wording, as I don’t have Carolyn’s book anymore. Carolyn surmised that w had conjured a way to make many of rulon’s babes think they needed birth control for medical reasons, as it was statistically a way-too-high number of women in one local population group to actually have endometriosis, according to Carolyn’s experience hearing about the condition. Naomi apparently was buying warren’s line, (of course.) Maybe someone can find the part in Carolyn’s book and post it word for word. Sorry I can’t.
    I remember someone several weeks ago posted something about a pregnancy of some gal named Ora being suspicious timing…and I continue to find it very interesting that naomi never had a child that anyone knows of…..
    but I thought all this non-stop child-bearing is one of the only ways the gals can make it to heaven!!… yet naomi is childless, and still elite status?
    According to flds teachings, I would predict warren would decide she was cursed by God and totally unworthy to be in w’s presence. Or perhaps the reasoning is that warren really liked naomi best after she stood up and gushed about him “I know he’s da proph” at the big Sunday meeting— so, since they aren’t supposed to “do” anything while a gal is expecting, maybe w reasoned that keeping her secretly on the pill was a way to keep having her available to him since she just wasn’t ever pregnant..?? Therefore the gal obviously needed extra “attention” from w? Are we to believe all the other w wives were buying this?
    I also always thought uncle fred not being able to father kids, yet getting so many other men’s kids assigned to him, showed the total hypocrisy of flds beliefs. (yes, I know he supposedly was sterile because of mumps or something!) So infertility in the flds (for whatever reason) is not a sign of God’s disapproval, but a health problem with a child is always the mother’s fault?
    P.S. can’t bring myself to use capital letters with these guys tonight. ..shouldn’t with naomi either

  57. More on Merril the wife beater:

    SID Number:
    04895739
    TDCJ Number:
    01745826
    Name:
    JESSOP,FREDERICK MERRIL
    Race:
    W
    Gender:
    M
    DOB:
    1935-12-27
    Maximum Sentence Date:
    2021-11-04
    Current Facility:
    BYRD
    Projected Release Date:
    2016-06-16
    Parole Eligibility Date:
    2012-12-30

    SPECIAL INFORMATION FOR SCHEDULED RELEASE:
    Scheduled Release Date:
    Offender is not scheduled for release at this time.
    Scheduled Release Type:
    Will be determined when release date is scheduled.
    Scheduled Release Location:
    Will be determined when release date is scheduled.

    Offense History:
    Offense Date Offense Sentence Date County Case No. Sentence (YY-MM-DD)
    2006-07-27 CONDUCT CEREMONY PROH LAW 2011-11-08 SCHLEICHER 1016 10-00-00

    Note his projected release date is in 2016.

  58. ticklethe wire.com ?

    CTV News has a good article about them ruling on the Polygamy issue.

    Still not a whole lot being reported by any news agencies in the US. One of the things mentioned that no matter the ruling they are sure that there will be appeals and that it will last for years.

    Looking like a lean to story in my eyes.

    Those folks worked real hard trying to get all the facts, so I know they did their part. Makes me wonder which agency down here is pushing it all from a different angle.

    Meanwhile the YFZ continues to look more like a an industrial community with a Religious tax break that lays claim to being a “happy well rounded community in which to raise kids” . And yet no one has seen any kids for how many years?

    The mug shot of Merril reminds me of those old flip etch a sketch with the little magnet attatched.

    Wonder who farmed the North 40 per se for the FLDS Berry Knoll?
    Am curious if NewEra is still cutting a check to Wendell and Co.

    I bet business has picked up for Willie. I bet he’s building like crazy for the CPark group. Warrens prophecies (ahemmm ) probably were next 5 year sales projections for work being done with the help of those backing the merger.

    all this is courtsey of buyme a shovel.com 🙂
    Walton

  59. His damn parole date is just over a year away? WTF?

  60. SID Number: 08213401 TDCJ Number: 01614421 Name: JESSOP,RAYMOND MERRIL Race: W Gender: M DOB: 1971-09-01 Maximum Sentence Date: 2019-10-27 Current Facility: BOYD Projected Release Date: 2019-10-27 Parole Eligibility Date: 2014-10-27
    SPECIAL INFORMATION FOR SCHEDULED RELEASE:

    Scheduled Release Date: Offender is not scheduled for release at this time. Scheduled Release Type: Will be determined when release date is scheduled. Scheduled Release Location: Will be determined when release date is scheduled.

    Offense History:
    Offense Date Offense Sentence Date County Case No. Sentence (YY-MM-DD)
    2004-11-19 SEX ASLT CHILD U/AGE 17 2009-11-10 SCHLEICHER 991 10-00-00

  61. SID Number: 08213405 TDCJ Number: 01640135 Name: EMACK,MICHAEL Race: W Gender: M DOB: 1950-12-13 Maximum Sentence Date: 2017-01-11 Current Facility: WARE Projected Release Date: 2017-01-11 Parole Eligibility Date: 2013-07-13
    SPECIAL INFORMATION FOR SCHEDULED RELEASE:

    Scheduled Release Date: Offender is not scheduled for release at this time. Scheduled Release Type: Will be determined when release date is scheduled. Scheduled Release Location: Will be determined when release date is scheduled.

    Offense History:
    Offense Date Offense Sentence Date County Case No. Sentence (YY-MM-DD)
    2004-10-06 SEX ASLT/CHILD 2010-01-22 SCHLEICHER 993 7-00-00

  62. SID Number: 08249110 TDCJ Number: 01644384 Name: JEFFS,LEHI BARLOW Race: W Gender: M DOB: 1979-03-06 Maximum Sentence Date: 2018-04-08 Current Facility: DIBOLL PRIV Projected Release Date: 2018-04-08 Parole Eligibility Date: 2014-04-08
    SPECIAL INFORMATION FOR SCHEDULED RELEASE:

    Scheduled Release Date: Offender is not scheduled for release at this time. Scheduled Release Type: Will be determined when release date is scheduled. Scheduled Release Location: Will be determined when release date is scheduled.

    Offense History:
    Offense Date Offense Sentence Date County Case No. Sentence (YY-MM-DD)
    2005-10-03 BIGAMY 2010-04-15 SCHLEICHER 1001 8-00-00
    2006-09-18 SEXUAL ASSAULT CHILD 2010-04-15 SCHLEICHER 1000 8-00-00

  63. SID Number: 08249123 TDCJ Number: 01700320 Name: DUTSON,KEITH WILLIAM JR Race: W Gender: M DOB: 1984-12-04 Maximum Sentence Date: 2016-10-31 Current Facility: WALLACE Projected Release Date: 2016-10-31 Parole Eligibility Date: 2013-10-31
    SPECIAL INFORMATION FOR SCHEDULED RELEASE:

    Scheduled Release Date: Offender is not scheduled for release at this time. Scheduled Release Type: Will be determined when release date is scheduled. Scheduled Release Location: Will be determined when release date is scheduled.

    Offense History:
    Offense Date Offense Sentence Date County Case No. Sentence (YY-MM-DD)
    2006-08-04 SEX ASLT CHILD 2010-11-09 SCHLEICHER 1004 6-00-00

  64. For Gretchen,

    Naomi, unlike her other sister wives, couldn’t stop talking about what was going on in Uncle Rulon’s house. Secrets were not her strong suit. At one point she started talking about her concern over the enormous birth control bills the prophet’s wives were running up.
    I could not believe what I was hearing… I turned to Naomi and said, “The enormous what?”
    Naomi sighed, “The enormous birth control bill,” she said, “He has to spend so much money on birth control it is outrageous.”
    I was incredulous, “Why is Uncle Rulon purchasing birth control for his wives?”
    “He has to because we all have endometriosis and it has to be treated with birth control.” Naomi sounded smug.

    A few paragraphs later Carolyn writes “My hunch was that Warren was paying for a cover up. It was not kept quiet that at least one of Uncle Rulon’s wives was having an affair with his son.”

  65. At long last, Chief Justice Robert Bauman will release his British Columbia reference case on polygamy tomorrow morning 23 November, 2011 @ 10:00AM Pacific Standard Time, [ court website : http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca ]. I expect a complete broadside based solely on the evidence and witnesses given at trial. The reference polygamy case will be appealed but the damning truth will be an virtual indictment in Bauman’s findings.

  66. KitKat– THANKS!! A direct-quote plygbit to help pass a cold, rainy day!!

  67. That’s for the levity KitKat. It always plays well.

    I hope you’re right caJIM. I”m crossing my fingers and toes.

  68. Someone posted this on the TexasPolygamy site. Not sure that I understand the ruling.

    http://courtlistener.com/ca9/4aBV/roland-cooke-v-bruce-wisan/

  69. I’m no legal expert. However, looking at this:
    http://az.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.20100422_0000799.DAZ.htm/qx

    Roland, the plaintiff, says that “Plaintiff asserts that Defendants confiscated the homes and property of 20,000 to 70,000 people in Utah, Arizona, and Canada in violation of the Takings Clause.”

    Wisan, the defendant said that the case should be dismissed for a number of reasons, one of which was that Roland had no standing to bring any such case.

    The court ruled in favor of Wisan–dismissing the case. Roland appealed that decision. And apparently that decision has been upheld. In other words, Roland’s case against Wisan is dismissed.

  70. Judgment from Canadian on Polygamy Reference Case is due to be issued today.

  71. I hope we will have plenty to be thankful for, BiB.

  72. Thanks rnr. Wonder if the UEP issue will be settled in my lifetime. It just goes on and on.

  73. RnR is right, The court upheld that Cooke had no standing to challenge.

  74. Daphne Bramham has won the Beyond Borders award for best print reporting in 2011 for a series of stories on polygamy, Canadian law and the fundamentalist Mormon community of Bountiful. Beyond Borders is the Canadian affiliate of ECPAT, the international organization that aims to end child prostitution and trafficking.

  75. What does it mean that the lawsuit had no standing? That he couldn’t prove it? or that the suit itself was too broad and it couldn’t be narrowed down to certain details?

    I wonder what makes him think that the LDS Church has anything to do with the UEP?

    Does /did he have documentation saying that Brigham Young said “this will soon be the head of the Church and not the tail? ”

    If the FLDS don’t have claim to the land and the LDS don’t have claim to the land does that mean it really does belong to the People?

    Who is paying Wisan?

    Was/ is Ruth Cooke real?

    Walton

  76. Walton , yes Ruth Cooke is real , a family member of mine talked to her recently , she thinks all the men who were convicted are guilty , except WSJ , she thinks he was framed & wronged , sometimes it takes these sheeple many years to get deprogrammed . As for WSJ’s revelation / predictions , I’ve heard similar predictions 25 – 30 years ago , so there’s nothing new I’m hearing , heard in church , all this has science saying similar things , when who knows ? , so you can take it or leave it , I’m going to leave it …….. other-Anon

  77. and why would he think that the FBI would be working with the LDS Church to gain property?

    The FBI is there for ALL the people not just the LDS. right?

    And why would the LDS need all that land? under any name? They don’t need it.

    Walton

    Does anyone know off hand if the people that control the media in the United States control the media in Canada?

  78. Thank you Anon. other-Anon

    What will happen to Ruth? If the whole area turns into one big CPark will they be nice to her?

  79. In order to bring a suit to a court, you have to have a vested interest in the subject. You can’t sue the bank because they foreclosed on your brother’s house, for instance, unless you were a party to the mortgage. You yourself have to have been wronged in some way. So saying he had no standing in the case is saying that they should not even discuss the merits of the case because he is not the person to be bringing it to the court.

  80. Can we start a new thread. I’m SICK of seeing his ugly mug.

  81. thanks Betty. Could it be that he is/was the stand-up guy for the others? Maybe if they all had signed the papers and had their names included the courts then would have heard the case right?

    I guess none of it is really here or there because it actually does belong to all the people. There has never been any court hearing that I know of that states that any or all of the land belonged to the FLDS/LDS legally.

    It was a ponzi scam from get go. imo
    Walton

  82. Canada says NO to Polygamy:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52930058-78/law-polygamy-ban-british.html.csp

    Wouldn’t be surprised to see an exodus of Warranites from Canada as this opens door to prosecution.

  83. Here’s more on Canada ruling, the FLDS aren’t going to like it.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/polygamy-ban-should-be-upheld-bc-judge-rules-in-landmark-decision/article2246238/

  84. The matter of his standing is addressed in the ruling:
    Defendants argue that Plaintiff does not have standing in this matter because (1) Plaintiff has not alleged that he has experienced any personal injury traceable to any conduct of Defendants; (2) the trust at issue is a charitable trust and, absent any special interest, Plaintiff cannot enforce such a trust; and (3) the Utah Court has already held that Plaintiff lacks standing to challenge the actions of Defendant Wisan as Special Fiduciary to the Trust. In his response to Defendants’ motion to dismiss (Doc. # 26), Plaintiff does not address the issue of standing.

    So, he has not lost a home himself or been thrown out of his home, he is not a officer of the trust who could speak for it as it is written and finally a court has already told him he does not have standing. Further, he does nothing in his claim to establish his standing although he’s already been told that he needs to.

    I don’t think signing a paper would resolve that.

  85. Whoo hoo !!!

  86. Hope the RCMP do a follow up investgation of minor girls who were transported across an international boundary for the purpose of underage marriage. The flds house of cards is falling apart.

  87. From what I can tell, Justice Bauman did really say that the Polygamy ban should be upheld. And even though the surveys listed on different sites aren’t formal the percentage of people agreeing with the decision out number those that didn’t.

    Justice Bauman stood up for those that needed protection. Not because of any land deal, not because of any money trading hands, not because he has a rap sheet but because he believes with all the documentaion done earlier this year, it showed the harms done to those within.

    I am glad he stood up!

    Walton

  88. Anonymous , if the whole area turns into one big CPark , there will just be another ” profit ” to take over : John Timpson is the ” profit at CPark ” , no difference there , remember it’s all about how much money the sheeple give to their “profit ” so no difference there .As for Ruth who knows how she will be treated by them , one can only guess . >>>> other-Anon

  89. http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/SC/11/15/2011BCSC1588.htm#SCJTITLEBookMa

  90. Canadian Chief Justice Bauman’s reference case findings on polygamy shows that the pathway to legalize polygyny is not through the Courts. Already, polygamists know that the ballot-box and legislation are not viable avenues, so now add the judiciary as a final plan to evade the Law. Seems like the minority views are still without a legal means to condone their illicit and outlaw lifestyle.

    Sex trafficking across borders should be criminally ended, now that polygamy is upheld as the proper policy for a modern electorate. Stronger enforcement and stregthened sentences/fines for these felony(s) need to be enacted, especially for repeat offenders that defy the Law under any guise of defense.

  91. Stronger enforcement and stregthened sentences/fines for these felony(s) need to be enacted, especially for repeat offenders that defy the Law under any guise of defense.
    caJIM said this on November 23, 2011 at 5:54 PM

    I believe forced marriage and coerced child-marriage also needs to be banned.

    That is one way to restrict the power of leaders to shower young girls on favored followers. It hands prosecutors an “actionable offense” they can use to pursue a perpetrator when a case like Walls’ comes up.

    Pushing someone into an unwanted marriage is such a gross violation of her human rights, its hard to imagine why it hasn’t been outlawed before now.

    To take it even further, it should be illegal to “assign” an underage bride to someone -even if there is no evidence she was forced or coerced. If compelling evidence emerges that someone made and followed through on a decision to *give* a child bride to an adult man, prosecutors should be able to go after that person.

    Any adult with influence and authority over a child – who abuses that position of trust or authority to coerce the girl into marriage with an adult – should be accountable as well.

    It is possible to write the law in such a way that parents who encourage a pregnant 16-year-old daughter to marry the adult father of her child (assuming the parents did not push her into the relationship with the father to begin with) would not be charged. Of course the key word is “encourage”. If they forced her with threats of violence or abandonment – that should still be actionable, in my opinion.

    Basically – I believe we need a stronger legal framework that acknowledges the rights of women (and men) to choose their own spouse and the timing of their own marriage (if any). No one should be able to claim control over such intimate decisions by claiming religious authority. Yes people can “submit to guidance” – making it tough to enforce – but anytime someone comes out of a such a situation and with provable claims they were forced into marriage – the law should be there to back them up.

  92. Willie the Thug-FOUND GUILTY, sentencing to be announced,visiting your Swiss bank accounts was no excuse, found guilty.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=18217964&title=ex-polygamous-convicted-of-contempt

    Willie boy’s going to find that he too like Warren is subject to the law.

  93. Here’s more on Willie the thugs conviction, he had to pay a hefty fine according this newspaper article:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700201073/Ex-polygamous-sect-spokesman-Willie-Jessop-convicted-of-contempt.html

  94. RCMP headed to Texas for investigation of FLDS trafficking across the border :

    http://www.vancouversun.com/news/RCMP+Texas+investigate+transfers+polygamous+underage+girls/5763745/story.html

  95. Looks like Shurtleff is seeking another job :
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705393896/Attorney-General-Mark-Shurtleff-applies-to-become-next-U-president.html

  96. Ron’s drive by musings:

    1. What’s the point to the Galveston investigation? Most judges just threw that stupid stuff in the trash. Besides what are they going to do – keep Warren’s corpse in prison for another 5 or 10 years?

    2. While the idea of closing off Galveston Island is an intriguing one, I suspect the reason that the prison hospital is in Galveston has to do with the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston being the first state medical school. Besides what good felon could pass up the first thing off the Island? It’s a totally nude club.

    3. A Texan needs to hit the “Post Comment” button only once.

    Happy Black Friday.

  97. The guy in the picture in this article: http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Area-judges-mailed-prophesies-of-imprisoned-2277242.php ? He’s one of our best and hardest working judges. David Farr has been shot at in Kosovo and Iraq, I doubt he’s very concerned about nit wit Warren and his prophesies.

  98. Hey Ron, good to see you here.

  99. Ron,
    missed you.
    Wishing you and all of your great holidays!

  100. Heading out to the highway to drive from Richmond VA to New Orleans LA. I am closing on the lot down there we are buying on Tuesday. Will be visiting family and doing research on building contractors. Will probably have some computer access while I am gone, but less than usual.

  101. WB Ron, you’ve been missed.

    Happy Black Friday shopping to one and all!!!

  102. Here,here….Jerrie! Fines leveled at orthodox Church’s should be sufficient ti curb them from skirting/ignoring statutes designed to end unlawful religious practices. Fining the FLDS Church for every known ‘Celestial’ marriage of a minor will command the attention of this wayward church’s teachings that ignore the Law. The FLDS Church’s current defiance of Texas statutes should be fined and then I am sure they, ‘will see the light’.
    Works, everytime.

  103. Just curious, does the FLDS celebrate Thanksgiving ?

  104. Those in no, those out sometimes from what I’ve been told.

  105. From what I’ve heard the flds does celebrate Thanksgiving , by closing the store whether or not every flds sheeple celebrates it , I don’t know , but the store is open all day on Christmas & the flds doesn’t celebrate it . >>>> other-Anon

  106. The border store was closed on TG. The mercantile was open. There was activity at the meeting house. The canyon park was packed. I saw a girl riding a horse in a camo prairie dress. That was awesome.

  107. It is my understanding that those who have been exed and are no longer following Warren are celebrating Thanksgiving. Warren celebrated by exing 10 more men.

  108. When I was in the flds there were no Easter egg hunts , only a general religious conference the 1st Sunday of April , so they celebrate Easter by going to a general conference , flds has one a year , unless that’s changed too ……… other-Anon

  109. Who got exed?

  110. San Angelo newspaper reporting on new investigation with Canada looking at FLDS crimes.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2011/nov/25/flds-members-might-face-international-child-sex/

  111. We always celebrated Thanksgiving when I lived in Colorado City. It was the one time of year when all the cool peeps from out of town showed up and Dad busted out the Mogen David.

    Moms family were all from SLC and they had a much broader experience base and i was quickly corrupted by listening to Boston and sampling a bit of Jack Daniels. Pretty soon AC/DC
    showed up and we all quit listening to ABBA and All Hell broke loose. LOL

    I cant tell you how fun it was growing up @ the Creek ! When we showed up as a group in the surrounding towns, the girls all chased us and we were going way too fast to be caught for long. 🙂 There was just too much fun to be had in the wide world and we were having it.

    Looking back I can honestly say that my humble unexposed childhood
    was a protection that was rare in the world and i ran away from it.

    Getting back here after 35 years of being gone, I can really appreciate good ole home cookin and great sunsets. The ones who never left are still
    here doing the same things they were doin when I left. They havent changed…. Happy Thanksgiving Weekend all you Turkeys !

  112. Anonymous at 8:34 PM , you may be right but I have the feeling WSJ will outlaw Thanksgiving , in his mind it’s a gentile & apostates holiday , give him time , he will give a directive for the sheeple to not celebrate it , who knows , I hope I’m wrong but it seems to me to be heading that way ???? other-Anon

  113. Anon 8:34 PM, that doesn’t sound like the Colorado City I just visited… you must not have or know anyone living under the Warren/Lyle tyrannical rule. I know those who are NOT can celebrate the holidays.

  114. I agree with the others, Anon @8:34, your story sounds like a fairy tale you’ve dreamed up. I hope it helps, because it sure isn’t the reality I’ve heard from everyone else.

    If anyone can give names or get messages to those who were recently exed, please tell them that they are now free and need to free their children.

  115. The Truth

    Colorado City and Hildale are, and will always be a haven a sanctuary
    that is filled with love.

    The geographical nature and location is sacred. There are people there that you have never seen or heard from.

    The history of the creek runs deep with traditions that have been abandoned for “modern” ways of living. These traditions are all about gratitude and abundance.

    A surface scan reveals surface data.

    Look deeper and you will find resistance to change. The community has existed as an experiment of the the followers of Joseph Smith. The edict given a handful of people in the 1800’s to keep alive the principles given at the partial restoration of the truth – And to Live according to the dictates of their own con-sciences. Not of the fashion and fad driven drivel of the world.

    ” Understand Truth and live Wholly within it. ”

    This has been the core belief of these people from day one.

    Drive through again and look at the children. (Beautiful )
    Look at the Families. ( Beautiful )
    Look at the landscape surrounding. ( Beautiful )
    And open your Heart to the feeling here ( Beautiful ).

    There’s the Truth. 🙂

  116. To Anon at 11:49 AM , I think you’re living in a dream world if you think things in Short Creek are like that , they don’t like men with facial hair , stare/glare at them , men wearing short sleeved shirts , shorts or men having halfway long or longer hair , women get stares/glares from sheeple if they wear pants , short sleeves , makeup , short hair , halter/tank tops , shorts , bare shoulders . Families are breaking up thanks to Warren/Lyle’s empire , is it drivel to want to be free of an oppressive dictator , who says you can’t have kids until he’s out of prison ? Is it drivel he tells you if you question his edicts you’re exed out , remember he told the sheeple they couldn’t even have sex until he’s out of prison , Doesn’t sound like Paradise to me , sounds like a living Hell , with WSJ/Lyle as dictators ! ……other-Anon

  117. D – R I V E L :

    Noun:

    The resulting language of un-perception . Opposition to;
    Non sequential order : Nonsight ,Nonsense

    🙂 🙂 🙂

  118. If you think people here have done only a “surface scan” of the FLDS, then you really are living in a dream world.

  119. Many things taught to children of both genders in flds are definitely not based on love or on truth.They are based in unnecessary rigidity to the extent that people are filled with fear. Fear if they try to create a different life for themselves than the excruciatingly narrow existence that has been documented time and again by those who have been fortunate enough to leave flds and yet propser, in spite of the many emotional wounds left by the flds belief system. Approval by God has nothing to do with multiple simultaneous marriages and unflinching prophet worship. Those things help keep people from truth, they do not lead them to truth at all.
    The truth is that God provided for all people to find salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. One’s own work or effort (e.g., marriages, tithes, childbirth, prophet obedience, etc etc) will remain inadequate and futile, and in fact, can create more sin in the heart-the sin of pride. Approval with God has to do with putting simple, childlike faith in something else already accomplished for each one of us that we could not ever do for ourselves. Salvation has nothing to do with what our last name is, how we wear our hair, who we pay allegiance to, who we are married to, whether we are doing temple ordinances, assigned duties. etc.
    Lds and flds “prophets” are just sinners, mortal men, no more close to God than the average person. They have no “extra righteousness” to use to bargain with God. Those who practice polygamy are not following any commandment ever given in either the Old or New Testament. There is simply no commandment to even practice polygamyat all, let alone view it as a means of salvation, for if God wanted that, polygamy would be mathematically possible for the human race in general.
    Instead, polygamy creates a situation where the more it is practiced, the more people are left with no chance of ever practicing it! The same few guys keep taking females into their collection, (which begs the question, how is it effective, if one has to keep on collecting? Seems like the salvation efficacy goes down with additional marriages, logically viewing this situation!) An increasing number of males get nothing at all. So it can’t possibly be an effective means of salvation for mankind.
    But there are many Bible verses dealing with accepting Jesus Christ as God, and his death on the cross as payment for one’s sin. Joseph Smith made up the whole celestial marriage thing to intimidate Emma, his legal wife, and also so he could appear to be acting on God’s will. It was the ultimate con! All Smith did was throw some words together to create a Biblical-sounding cloak for his desire to have many females at his disposal. The polygamists refuse to examine the Bible itself, instead they place their faith in their lifestyle, and in a madman’s edicts, because their minds are basted in flds-sanctioned fear and threats from day one. That’s the size of it. Maybe “prophets” before warren weren’t quite as cold or strict, but they were way off base morally just as warren is. flds is now led by a dude with a critical mass of greed in his heart and mind. Ejecting more guys? Par for the course. God? Nope, just a wannabe who is very mortal and proving his own failings more with each passing season.

    Flds is full of teachings and futile ideas that perpetuate fear and cruelty. You can call it surface scan if you want to, but that’s about all it takes- a cursory study of it- for a person of average intelligence to see flds teachings and practices are too harsh for realistic living for right-minded people. The only way it can work its will on people with normal or better intelligence is through heavy conditioning within a tightly-controlled framework from early childhood, laced with plenty of fear. And that’s exactly how and why it even works at all.

  120. Anon @ 11:49 and 2:05 today and 8:34 last night – feel free to post, but don’t expect many, if any, to agree with you and/or listen to you. We’ve heard too much about the horrible conditions that are being placed on the current Warrenites under Lyle’s control.

    BTW, does Uncle Lyle know you are on the internet? One of Warren’s edicts was no internet.

  121. Doesn’t that anon sound a lot like ZXC??

  122. Warren already has his number.

    Warren hates AC/DC.

  123. I don’t know about sounding much like ZXC but Anon sure sounds confused about what the worship of the Almighty is supposed to include, seems like sunsets, lock-steps, children, family and community has replace the Word as their new Truth? Heah, Anon want to talk about Praise the Lord or is it just Praise to the Man?? Warren Steed Jeffs was convicted and his criminal trial speaks the Greatest Truth!

  124. Something tells me Anon isnt worried about Warren disapproving of his celebration of Thanksgiving or his use of the internet.

    I reckon a lot of peeps out there are having a collective sigh of relief that Warren is in prison.

    Though for many of those still pretending to be his little sheeple, they better look out so Lyle doesnt body snatch their wives and children.

    BTW almost done reading Sam Browers book – WOW

    There is so much more detail and incidents he has uncovered.

    If Warren wasnt in Prison for life at the time of reading that book I would be very disgusted.

    Still, am somewhat ticked off for Ut / Az / Fed LE failure to perform their duty at almost every turn.

  125. “Prophet’s Prey”

    While a good title, it implies that the book is about Warren cherry picking young girls.

    In reality, the book is so much more.

    My nomination for a nickname for the book:

    “How Warren dragged them all to Hell”

  126. Thinking back to just after the ranch “raid” about the comment from Esther, I think, when asked about her prophet and she replied “Oh I think he is just perfect,” or something like that. Her giddy wide eyed response seemed contrived, as if to impress. It is beyond me that these people could still revere him. Hoping the truth of his behind closed doors actions have slowly leaked in to the members and many of them will get out.

  127. Older anon

    Indeed the actions of Esther and Candi were straight out of the Twilight Zone.

    I read the book when it first came out, and this is one of those books you want to read twice, with a magic marker at hand no less.

    So next time I am marking it up so we can get some talking points moving.

  128. Anon 11/27/2011 11:49am:

    “Drive through again and look at the children. (Beautiful)”

    Every time I am there I see those children and every one of them is utterly innocent and beautiful. I want to get help to them before they get ritually raped in a baptismal font. If you don’t believe that actually happened, I can tell you it did, because I heard the audio recording of it.

  129. So next time I am marking it up so we can get some talking points moving.
    Chaps said this on November 28, 2011 at 9:05 AM

    Looking forward to it.

  130. @ FLDS Texas

    Honestly what qualifies you beyond Drivel? What do you know that hasnt been presented by angry possessed cash oriented system obeying zombies. I am calling you all to the floor here. You are like the dandruff on a fly. Click your mouses furiously and in sync.. It changes nothing….

    Present your Intelligence.. And BTW people are listening to me. 🙂

  131. OHHHhh

    Another message from the twilight zone.

    What does Warren Jeffs have to say lately?

    Is he keeping your keys to the kingdom in a safe place?

    Talk about dandruff on a fly, Warren is a pimple on the sheeples ass.

    Popped at that

  132. Anon, we are not presenting our intelligence, we are presenting the actual evidence. PLEASE hear it, precisely because “people are listening” to you.

  133. Anon…. Use some intelligent words to differentiate between FLDS Texas’ drivel and your drivel. I’m serious. You have the onus to do that. You brought it up. Proof… evidence… explanations required/desired… beyond personal perceptions. All that you’ve said so far could easily fall into the “denial” category. Or perhaps “troll.”

    BTW, you don’t define how many people are listening to you or why. This forum has countless listeners, seeking beyond media hype, and contributing beyond the obvious. Tell us why we should listen to you. There are other eye-witnesses here who can provide undeniable evidence to refute what you’ve said so far. Where is yours? Proof… evidence… explanations required/desired.

  134. oops! 1:09 was from me.

  135. I have been trying to exercise discipline but I finally have to say it …
    looks like Merril was crying doesn’t it?

  136. I thought so too, HHG.

  137. to the administrator , I would really like to follow your blog, but it’s too hard for me to read with the black background….:)

  138. Tip –

    on any site where reading is hard – hit “CTRL and the Plus sign” on your keyboard, the text will enlarge.

    To reverse, hit CTRL and the minus sign.

  139. Uncaduff, if you highlight it you can read it in blue. I’ve never thought about reading on black. What colors are easier to read? You might give some suggestions to the Admin so they can play around with it.

    I’ve seen your posts on other blogs and would love to have you participate in this one.

  140. black on white always works….

  141. A happy people are a free people, a free people are a happy people, when leaders begin to fill there followers with fear and guilt, it is for the purpose of control, a people who are filled with fear and guilt, are naturally suspicious of one another and cant enjoy each others company, they are therefore deprived of the most basic freedom; freedom of association.

  142. I think the site looks dramatic and I like it, but I agree that white type on black background is harder to read than a lot of other options.

  143. http://www.eldoradoflds.us/

    Pilot has new pictures up of the mysterious structure.

  144. http://www.eldoradoflds.us/

    Pilot has new pictures up of the mysterious structure.

    Proud Texan said this on November 28, 2011 at 7:49 PM

    Thanks PT, IMO it has something to do with the statue of Warren, and perhaps as a tomb for Warren, the FLDS wouldn’t want ole Warren to end up at Peckerwood Hill would they.

    Perhaps the Warren statue would set in middle of structure with benches lining the interior walls for the Warranites to sit on looking at the statue.

    The white fence around the strange structure is like that around the temple of doom, which means what ever the structure is, it’s important, at least to the FLDS.

  145. Wendell Nielson retracted his plea — requests jury trial instead.
    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2011/nov/28/nielsen-allowed-to-back-out-of-plea-deal-granted/

  146. Yeah A Texan, I think those who thought it was a water tank had their predictions go south when windows turned up in the straight walls.

  147. They’re sightglasses. I’ve been well trained in denial.

  148. As one of the first to suggest water tower, I’m swimming in embarrassment.

  149. Well Nielson must not be too smart, his buddy Merril the wife beater turned down a plea bargain and got the max. According to the article in the San Angelo paper he could get up to 30 years and $30,000 in fines.

    At Nielson’s age even a 5 years sentence could be a life sentence. A trial also opens up prior bad acts which ole Nielson might not want made public.

    Guess Nielson wants to wear those all white Texas prison clothes and take that long ride on the white bus to Huntsville,TX. Why ole Nielson just might join Warren & Merril at Peckerwood Hill Cemetery.

    Dude just doesn’t seem to understand-Don’t Mess with Texas.

  150. There’s more to this plea withdrawal (very uncommon with a deal like this) than we will probably ever know. If you do know, please tell.

  151. Not much to tell 3C, Wendell thought he was still in charge and Judge Walther just explained to him that he wasn’t. He wanted the terms (which he signed off on) to be changed, amended, deleted, insert whatever word you want, and he was told that they Judge doesn’t negotiate community service provisions.

    Apparently his attorney tried to talk him into keeping his plea deal, but ultimately the attorney announced that against the advice of counsel he wanted to withdraw his plea and have a jury trial.

    The Judge the promptly sent Dec 20 for his final pretrial and Jan 23 for his trial. If he files a Motion to Transfer Venue it will be heard on the 20th and venue will be decided then so that jury summons can be sent out timely.

  152. Also, Webster’s just called, they’ve amended their definition of the word IDIOT to include a picture of Wendell.

  153. Cement, De Nile is in Africa, De Concho and/or Brazos are in Texas. Those are probably the 2 closest rivers to the ranch.

  154. They are floating on a raft down the Rio Grande without a paddle.

    Wendell, you are a HOOT.

    Looks like you are gonna join the Holy Order Of Texas Flds homies cruising the CelloSteel Kingdom in your terrestrial molestial existence.

  155. Oh, and no half-Ass-trodome party for you, neither!

  156. Seth Jeffs as quoted in “prophet’s prey” when asked about child brides by the Oprah crew:

    “Who Really Cares”?

    ummmm – Texas? Check it!

  157. is that really the same structure we saw before that looked like the base of a water tower? I don’t see the square shape that was there….?

  158. I don’t know why they are keeping this all so secretive.

    I guess secrets sells.

    Water treatment plant.

    Walton

    I want to know why they are allowed a religious exemption on that property when they aren’t using the Temple. And they are using a large portion of lands for commercial gain.

    I want to know what the Feds did with the info they KNEW and KNOW about concerning the rest of the stories that were told the general public.

    I want to know what really happened to those kids.

    Walton

  159. Walton

    I thought they were denied religious exemption on their property

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/breaking-news-from-schleicher-county/

    The Schleicher County Appraisal District in Eldorado, Texas has denied a request for a religious property tax exemption at the YFZ Ranch.

  160. The other base is still there but it appears that construction has halted on it as they concentrate on this particular hal-moon shaped structure.

    Perhaps they plan on putting a dome over the statue to keep Warren cooped in so he cant do any more damage.

    Good luck with that, FLDS peeps. He is going to keep causing you grief, as long as you have his picture on the wall sneering down at you.

  161. Hi Juliekan.

    They denied it at first and then maybe again a 2nd time but I think the 3rd time was the charm.

    From what I understood they were allowed a certain percentage for religious exemption.

    And ….those fields are awfully big to feed the few people that are living on that ranch.

    Is anyone else benefiting from that water treatment plant? I am thinking yes.

    Any grants? Again I am thinking yes.

    Any papers served on the others that were breaking the laws? nope

    Any AG cartoon characters warning the dangers of practicing polygamy? nope

    Any title transfers from Hildale/ Colorado City? Could be.

    Wendel Nielsen is no dummy. He still has NewEra. The FLDS corp. is still getting the monies from all those contracts.

    Walton

  162. FLDS has NO permit for a plant.. the only permit they have is for the treatment facility on the far east side of the YFZ ranch…

  163. My understanding is that Wendell no longer owns or has a role in New Era Mfg. There are reports that the company then known as Western Precision donated $100,000 plus per month to the flds leaders. Jack Wayman provided the red Caddy that Warren was captured in. I think Jack also has signed papers regarding the YFZ property.

  164. any word on the timing of the uep litigation?

  165. Chemist, it’s John Wayman, not Jack. He’s also the one who brought the underage, aka 12 year old, Canadian girls from Short Creek to Eldorado to become the brides of Warren Jeffs.

  166. This new structure and the original base are 2 totally different things. They aren’t even close together.

  167. Merril has been moved to Jester III in Fort Bend, Texas.

  168. TThanks for correction orf 1st name PT. He should be on list of people being investiagated.

  169. Anybody know who of the 10 people were exed ? I might know some of them ?…… other-Anon

  170. I’ve heard that a brother of Lorin Holm was recently exed, not sure if he was a part of this latest group or a previous group.

  171. Also Chris Wyler.

  172. Its fall, they are coming down like leaves…

  173. Mark your calendars: Nielsen’s trial is set to begin Jan. 23.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53011433-78/nielsen-probation-bigamy-conditions.html.csp?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    What a dumbass. All the better to get him out of the gene pool…

  174. Well this is a step in the right direction – next up, FLDS?

    =======

    “NEW YORK – Federal authorities on Wednesday busted a mob-sponsored sex trafficking operation that allegedly smuggled women from Russia and Eastern Europe to work at New York strip clubs.

    Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara announced the arrests of 20 people, including reputed Gambino crime family leader Alphonse Trucchio, on a host of charges that include visa fraud, marriage fraud and transporting illegal aliens.”

    Read more:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/30/20-arrested-in-alleged-mob-linked-sex-trafficking-ring-at-new-york-strip-clubs/?test=latestnews#ixzz1fHaLhNZP

  175. Stamp: We can only hope.

  176. Counter is over 990,000. Wow! Think it will hit one million before the new year? I will make sure to have a bottle of good champagne chilled and ready.

  177. Well this is a step in the right direction – next up, FLDS?

    Stamp said this on December 1, 2011 at 6:47 AM

    You mean once they uncover evidence of widespread criminal activity? They’ve had that for years.

    Once the Feds decide to open an investigation? They did and (according to Sam Brower’s source in Prophet’s Prey) were ordered to stop – with the order coming from the highest levels of government.

    It’s not that we don’t have effective law enforcement in this country. It’s just that it doesn’t seem to apply to the FLDS – unless the FLDS take it upon themselves to supply a billion of pages of documentation, write out the entire story in DNA – and then move to Texas long enough for someone to care.

  178. I just finished reading Prophet’s Prey and I wish we could “invite” him to a session of users of this blog to answer questions.

    He seems to walk a pretty “narrow” line in trying to keep relationships and contacts open so that even when one avenue fails (like the Candice Shipley case) contacts are available in further efforts.

    So my questions would be:
    Where does he see the best direction for efforts to proceed now?
    What kinds of laws would he want to see Utah enact?
    Does he think the Feds are really doing something or does there need to be a coordinated effort to get them back on track?
    Is he hopeful?
    Where is the UEP in the big picture he has been working on? He does not appear to be connected to any of the UEP litigation?
    Does he have an ear to the ground on the civil rights litigation in Arizona?

  179. I believe Sam would talk about the UEP Trust case and the Hildale/Colorado City township charters being revoked as two ongoing situations to further deconstruct the FLDS Church. The RCMP investigations, given the favorable BC reference case polygamy ruling, shows potential. The Federal authorities have to be investigating the sex trafficking from this side of the Canmadian border but will likely coordinate their efforts with the RCMP. Sam Brower has been tied down with his book promotion and will schedule onto,’Whatloveisthis.tv’ once his contract is met, sometime early next year.

    Funny how silent MadeWacky has become. Hugh ‘Child’ McCried seems to be hibernating in his man cave letting the hair grow back on his neanderthal knuckles and eyebrows. He must be still smarting from BC Chief Justice Justice Bauman’s findings that, “Polygamy is inherently harmful”, read it and weep hugh-boy. The Vulture seems to have lost so many feathers he stays close to his crib these days and only is visited by Ms Fools and Yellow deCantor.

  180. Well perhaps I was being optimistic, I have seen the many federal LE opportunities go begging for quite some time, but I would think that the double whammy of the RCMP nosing on their turf, and the Joe Paterno scandal which is making them look like similar enablers, would inspire them to get off the dime.

    I dont want to make this a political thing but it appears the decision back then was made at the highest level and so will any action going forward, so I hope certain peeps in power grow a spine.

    Texas kick started the action, now they need to carry the ball too.

    And yeah its funny that most of the old regulars went silent, I would too if I was backing up pedos who were trading child sex slave flesh and recording the porn for later satisfaction. Doesnt make for nice dinner conversation with the wife, Vulture found that out in spades.

  181. And it IS interesting, I will say SATISFYING, reading that book knowing that Warren was given and serving a life sentence (not so at publication, nor was Merril convicted – nice addendums to the story) and was indeed reduced to “a shell of a man” because otherwise I would have been just really ticked off.

    The UEP case, I believe, will be the lynchpin regardless of the city charter decision. We all know its crooked as a root out there, and there has been impotent control of their actions, but the 10th can rock their world.

    That, and that pesky “no-sex” decree.

  182. Oh another note.

    Sam was great at catching them at so many lies, pointing out they seem to tell them so easy to anyone out there – and yet, (which Sam didnt elaborate as much as I would have preferred) they didnt recognize when they were lying to EACH OTHER …. But the reader is definitely left with the impression they would buy ANYTHING Warren said. JUST ANYTHING.

    Freakin hysterical!

    A great book, 5 stars

  183. Good point Stamp

    As Sam pointed out they lied continuously and without a pause to gentiles but were unable to use that information to examine communications with each within.

    It has been said over and over by apostates how deep the conditioning goes and I never really understood a fraction of that until see Merrill shocked face above (he really really really) didn’t think it would happen, and to see Wendel giving up his plea bargain…. All of that conditioning comes out in the shock that Sam Brower had on his first and second and third, and fourth …. exposure to their world.

  184. You mean once they uncover evidence of widespread criminal activity? They’ve had that for years.

    Once the Feds decide to open an investigation? They did and (according to Sam Brower’s source in Prophet’s Prey) were ordered to stop – with the order coming from the highest levels of government.

    It’s not that we don’t have effective law enforcement in this country. It’s just that it doesn’t seem to apply to the FLDS – unless the FLDS take it upon themselves to supply a billion of pages of documentation, write out the entire story in DNA – and then move to Texas long enough for someone to care.

    Jerrie said this on December 1, 2011 at 2:02 PM

    Jerrie it isn’t just about the FLDS imo. And this wasn’t the first time that the Feds have “stopped” investigating different crimes concerning these groups. Keep in mind the word Dominoes.

    They stopped investigating the issue with the Welfare programs. ( info found on Rick Ross, Salt Lake Tribune and Hope.org.

    Investigating school issues when Tom Horne was in charge of education. ( Never saw one person charged with any crime) but it wasn’t because Tom Horne didn’t care. He did. And imo he still cares.

    Mark Shurtleff let the dust pile up on the Kingston files so long that the time limit had long passed with a vocal “ooops” from Shurtleff.

    Walton

  185. I believe Sam Brower to be a good man. And I am grateful he said as much as he did in his book.

    There is a LOT more that needs to be acted on and a LOT more that needs to be said.

    walton

  186. The youtube video posted of Sam Brower on this blog by anon on 27 November, mentions in interview what Walton mentions, from highest levels, none other than the Whitehouse President Obama, the same who approved Nuffer’s judgeship.

    Why President Obama blocks enforcement as relates to FLDS is not known although perhaps fear of another Waco/1953 raid could be a factor.

  187. Thanks for the link to the Sam Brower video.

    There was fear about a confrontation like “Waco or a Jonestown “. And I myself was afraid of a Swapp or a tick tock type scene. Much of the info passed on down from those giving the Press ” Say this cards” was given by those leading the chase.

    But Obama wasn’t in charge in 1994. That is when the Feds shut down the investigation of fraud concerning food stamps.

    The answer is in the history. And it goes back much further than a person thinks.

    I know that there are Federal agencies that are workiing really hard in some areas. I’ve seen it. And I personally think that Obama is a part of that process.

    What I don’t see is any Federal Agency working on THIS problem with the FLDS/polygamy and all the other BS that is attatched to this story. So why would that be?

    Sam Brower once again mentioned that the LDS Church “excommunicates” those that practice Polygamy. I like Sam Brower. And he is right. The LDS say they excommunicate those that practice polygamy. But what does that really mean? It means there are certain things that they are not allowed to do as “cast outs” from the Church.

    But isn’t it ironic that there are more Sealing Rooms etc. in that area then there is other places. Closing one door while opening another.

    I still believe in Texas. And I still believe in Sherrif Doran and Deputy George. I believe in the Texas Rangers and all those who take their jobs serisously to protect us all.

    Walton

    Here is the link to the Rick Ross story: http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy5.html

  188. When the LDS church excommunicates someone it means that the person is no longer a member of the church. They cannot have a calling, or assigned duty, cannot go to LDS temples, cannot speak in church services. They basically have the same status as any non member visitior to the church has. They can attend meetings and classes, but cannot take the sacrament (communion). They are not to pay tithing. They are also not shunned.

  189. Walton: Speaking of the LDS. the area with the greatest number of sealing rooms is the Salt Lake City-Provo metro area. That area has more LDS temples than any other area on earth.

  190. Oh the threats of Warren. Please add the treat fantasy to the Willie stare fantasy and you get more diversion for the sake of selling a few more copies of some ex-members book.
    A religious leader has made predictions as fantastic as many other religious leaders and those that follow his beliefs will believe as they see fit.
    The real hoot is that several on this site will send eight bucks to the flds and get their own copy of the predictions.

  191. Probably not, since it’s available for free on the internet.

  192. They will not get $8.00 from me since I am not interestedd in reading warren’s delusions. Also, as Betty pointed out, they are free on the internet for those who do want them.

  193. Which delusions should one buy? There are so many, and there is so little time to read them all.

    But I know one thing, that group is still feeding them to themselves, even while spending their years in prison.

    Hope it helps them pass the time. Because they have a lot of time to pass, what about a 1,000 man years now?

  194. I just saw Sam Brower’s video , he says WSJ has a copy of The Rise & Fall of the Third Reich , does anybody know if WSJ or any followers of his has a copy of Mein Kampf ? , another book about Nazism , I think WSJ is a Communist or a Nazi ! ……….other-Anon

  195. chemist – I’ve told you before that I respect you and that I would be proud to have you as a neighbor and friend. I still feel that way.

    I say things as I see it chemist and I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else who belongs to the LDS Church. I don’t know how to say it any other way than straight out.

    John Taylor said that they would have to sacrifice some things in order to continue the practice. But that the Church would take care of them here on Earth and in the Heavens.

    St. George has 18 sealing rooms in their temple. More than any other temple. http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/articles/facts/

    Even Ervil LeBaron is allowed into their Heavens as are other major Polygamy players.

    According to the beliefs Ervil would have one of those High seating chairs next to God as he had many wives.

    How about me Chemist? Would I be allowed a seat next to God? I am not a polygamist. I am not a man. And what if I were Native American?

    What are the chances? According to the young missionary that I visited with, it would be a big fat no way.

    Walton

  196. Rise and Fall etc is a history book, Mein Kampf is the writings of Hitler himself. Communists and Nazi’s are polar opposites; you can’t be both. They do, however, share the strong tendency towards tyranny and historically have used similar means of control. No, I do not know if WSJ has it or has read it. I remember reading that he had, and that he had also read Machiavelli’s The Prince but at the moment, I cannot remember where I read it so I can’t vouch for it as fact
    .
    .

  197. I just finished reading Prophet’s Prey and I wish we could “invite” him to a session of users of this blog to answer questions.

    hellohellogoodbye said this on December 1, 2011 at 2:58 PM

    I think that is a great idea. Someone would need to take the lead to contact him through his publisher – or, through a mutual contact.

  198. I’d also like to ask Sam Brower what he believes the next step should be.

    What ever those steps are, I can tell you from experience that clear, focused, well-crafted statements with a very clear call to action get the best results.

    The hard part is figuring out:

    1. The Message
    (What are they key issues – boiled down to a handful of repeatable lines?)

    2. The “Call to Action”
    (What do we want people to do or ask their leaders to do: Change a law? Start a task force?)

    Even if more people begin to care, there is still a need for a clear plan of action. Without that – not much will change.
    ______________________________________

    One suggestion to start the discussion:

    Message:

    Religious Polygamy as currently practiced in the US suffers from a critical shortage of brides – putting young girls at high risk of being subject to forced or coerced marriage.

    Forced and coerced marriage is a violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (article 16) as well as of constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.

    Call to Action:
    Call your representatives and insist they create and pass effective, enforceable laws banning all types of forced marriage as well as coerced child marriage at both the federal and state level.

    We need more than that – but one reason I keep coming back to this issue is that it transcends religious freedom arguments. It is easy to understand, hard to oppose and focuses attention on one important type of abuse than can and should be stopped.

    If Forced or Coerced marriage were illegal in Utah, prosectors could have gone directly after FLDS leaders who direct the show – rather than struggle through cases that often involve victims on all sides. As these groups grow and spread, more states will need these tools as well.

    I also believe WSJ’s power to dole out brides played a huge role in both his rise to power and his ability to dominate and abuse his flock. Without it, he may never have managed to become the Prophet in the first place.

  199. Jerrie,
    I am not a lawyer so I don’t see the downside of your a) statement and b) call to action, so as a member of this site, I vote to endorse your statement.

    I think if we get enough “votes” maybe we could as the administrators to add that to the top of the blog?

    Can we do a “vote”?

  200. Walton, there may be some confusion here about LDS practices and doctrines. FLDS members are not allowed in LDS temples. Polygamists are not allowed in LDS temples. So the number of sealing rooms in the LDS temples is irrelevant to polygamy. The only marriages that occur there are monogomous ones. And the LDS Church does not teach that polygamy is required for exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom; fundamentalists do.

  201. Here is a suggestion:
    There are several petitions already started on change.org regarding child brides. But, they seem to relate to international child bride problems and not domestic. Petitions with high supporter rates do have an impact in making change happen. I have seen it happen. Create a petition about domestic coerced marriage and get the word out.

    here is the link to the current petitions on child brides:
    http://www.change.org/petitions#search/child brides

  202. Sex trafficking between the FLDS gulags and Canada seems to me to be the more obviuos ‘choke-points’. Any newer laws enacted opens up two follow-on problems:

    A.) Changed FLDS Church tactics to comply with the letter, but not the spirit, of the Law, ie the Mesquite quicky marriages in Nevada and/or celestial wedlocks in Canada by Hildale/Colorado based grooms/brides, both have been employed to counter current Law.

    B.) Enforcement by Utah officials has a history of not being enacted, therefore a Federal Law Task Force is needed, ie Sex Trafficking across the Canadian Border seems more tangible to watchdog and report abuses/violations. I suspect Mexico is going to become one alternative owing to the recent RCMP investigations into Texas and the Mexican border and polygamist Chuhuahua and Sonora enclaves already exist.

  203. The Salt Lake/Provo metro arera has 9 temples so there are more sealing rooms there than in any other area of the country. The Washington DC temple has 16 sealing rooms. LDS doctrine is that God is no repecter of persons. That any man or woman of any race can receive the same blessings in the post mortal (earth) life. I agree with what Rebecca said regarding LDS practices amd beliefs.

  204. A.) Changed FLDS Church tactics to comply with the letter, but not the spirit, of the Law, ie the Mesquite quicky marriages in Nevada and/or celestial wedlocks in Canada by Hildale/Colorado based grooms/brides, both have been employed to counter current Law.

    caJIM said this on December 2, 2011 at 3:09 PM

    That is a good point. However, the advantage to having a law in place that specifically targets leaders is that victims who later want to pursue justice have something to work with. Elissa Walls’ case was overturned because WSJ could not be charged as an accomplice to “statutory” rape.

    It would have been much simpler if he could have been charged for forcing the child marry an adult.

    I think a law could be written to encompass whatever the FLDS and like groups come up with. If two people are “married” by community standards – it should count -no matter what they choose to call it. If a person is forced to enter into a marriage-like relationship – the folks doing the forcing should be given good reason to fear discovery.

    Coercion is tricker – but if an adult can demonstrate that, as a child, other adults manipulated her into an unwanted marriage, I believe the law should provide her with grounds to take action.

    The choice of whom to marry and when is so very fundamental to liberty – it is impossible to imagine anyone successfully arguing that the US constitution guarantees religious leaders the freedom to steal freedom from others. Yet without adequate laws in place, they don’t have to argue about it. They can simply do it.

    Cross-border sex trafficking, fortunately, already violates federal law. That is more an issue of encouraging action – not campaigning for new laws. I absolutely agree that it is the issue of the moment and deserves attention!

  205. I know I’m getting a bit long-winded here (long texted?), but I have one more issue to raise:

    The audio child-rape tape. I haven’t heard the tape – however, my understanding it is that it provides clear evidence of a religiously-justified, ritualized child rape – in the presence of multiple adults.

    Two Utah judges as well as officials involved in WSJ’s arrest in Nevada – at the very least had access to this tape. Both took action to suppress the tape. Neither took action to protect children.

    If Penn State officials had an obligation to act to protect children, why not Utah judges?

    My understanding is that the location of the assault was unclear – so Utah officials could not charge WSJ with rape under the Utah code. OK – but shouldn’t they make sure SOMEONE charges him with the crime? Once their own case against Jeff’s was overturned, he could have walked free if Texas hadn’t stepped in.

    Message: Judges and LE’s who have clear evidence of child sexual assault MUST take action to protect children. In the case of religiously-justified, ritualized sexual assault by a religious leader, they must assume that other children within the religious organization are at risk and take appropriate action.

    Call to Action: (Not sure: I believe the judges involved should be held accountable, but I don’t know enough about how the system works to suggest an approach.)

    Just as with the forced marriage law – the idea is to focus on the predator-end of the food chain. Powerful officials who ignore or actively suppress evidence of child-rape qualify, IMHO.

  206. Jerrie, my understanding of the sex audio tape is that without the documentation from the vault at YFZ, it was impossible to tell who the voices on the tape were, other than WSJ.

  207. Wow, check out the new creepy pic of WSJ on the Mormon hair poof site. Try to contain your excitement ladies, he’s taken.

  208. SLT article on UEP/Utah AG fight

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53038671-78/trust-court-attorney-general.html.csp

    “The Utah attorney general is fighting a court order requiring the state to pay more than $5.5 million for outstanding debts to the accountant appointed to run a polygamous sect’s communal property trust.
    Attorney General Mark Shurtleff says taxpayers shouldn’t be on the hook because there is no evidence Shurtleff “acted in bad faith or committed fraud” when the state took over the trust in 2005.”

  209. http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20111203/NEWS01/112030327/Man-seeks-custody-kids-from-members?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFrontpage

    Go Lorin, Go Lorin, Go Lorin

    Say it with me now, Go Lorin, Go Lorin, Go Lorin!!!

  210. Wow, check out the new creepy pic of WSJ on the Mormon hair poof site. Try to contain your excitement ladies, he’s taken.
    Anonymous said this on December 2, 2011 at 7:00 PM

    Yeah, about 78 times.

  211. Attorney General Mark Shurtleff says taxpayers shouldn’t be on the hook because there is no evidence Shurtleff “acted in bad faith or committed fraud” when the state took over the trust in 2005.”

    I think the fraud comes in when he tried to settle behind closed doors with the FLDS without the Trust Administrators or any exFLDS being present.

  212. I don’t get the Spectrum paper , remember I live in Short Creek , Lorin who ? there are many Lorin’s here ? …… other-Anon

  213. Wow, check out the new creepy pic of WSJ on the Mormon hair poof site. Try to contain your excitement ladies, he’s taken.
    Anonymous said this on December 2, 2011 at 7:00 PM

    You beat me to it. It’s a ‘spit drink all over computer screen’ picture. Creepy.

  214. The photographer made a (failed) attempt to make him look hip.

  215. Happy Birthday Warren Jeffs!

    What is this? The fourth birthday behind bars?

    Hope its all you ever wanted and more, slimeball.

  216. Way to remember Ariel. I forgot all about his 56th birthday.

  217. Don’t forget to check out a couple ditties on feralfem’s blog (when you first go to Texas Polygamy)…

    I think more of us can certainly come up with way-cool rap lyrics for the weirdo -with- the- jacket -over -shoulder pose, can’t we, ladies and gents?

  218. I think this will be his 6th birthday in jail since he was first arrested in August 2006.

  219. Last night I texted my daughter that wsj just had a birthday. This morning I found a text from her which said, ” Mommy, who would stoop so low to celebrate his birthday anyway?”

  220. Here is a great summary article of the issues and implications of the Canadian reference case, also containing a link to all the documents BIB so kindly worked to “bring” over here:

    http://jurist.org/forum/2011/12/nicholas-bala-canada-polygamy.php

  221. Gretchen, tell her that we aren’t celebrating his birthday, just the fact that he is in prison and can’t abuse any more children.

  222. You’re so right, PT !- My daughter didn’t mean that WE are celebrating, I think she meant that she wondered if anyone really is trying to make something positive out of this guy’s sorry life. (such as those in flds that are loyal to him.)- I didn’t send her the lyrics of the funny raps and song on feralfem’s blog yet- my daughter rolls her eyes when I mention “unkidub”– I have loaded her up with so many stories over the past several years., she can’t stand it most of the time now!

  223. sounds like my husband/daughter/son/

  224. i remembered that flds held shindigs of some sort for “Uncle Roy’s” birthday. I know lds have observed J Smith’s birthday in some ways… knowing that, it wouldn’t surprise me if flds put together some sort of special goings-on for W’s .. but at the moment, they are supposed to be in mourning and all…

  225. In mourning? I bet a lot are celebrating.

    Oh, and for his sixth birthday present in prison – yet another Darwin Award.

  226. If the flds did anything on his birthday it would be to spend the day fasting and praying for his deliverance.

  227. Deliverance – the movie – Warren is in familiar territory on that score..

  228. http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20111203/NEWS01/112030327/Man-seeks-custody-kids-from-FLDS-members

    here is the spectrum article.

    Lorin Holm of Colorado City filed the civil lawsuit in September seeking unspecified damages and sole custody of his nine children, who remained in the care of their mothers when Holm was expelled from the church in January by the faith’s prophet, Warren Jeffs, according to documents filed with the court.

  229. well that link didn’t work either. I google “Man seeks custody kids from FLDS members” and was able to read the article. sort of a back door into it.

  230. I tried general “google” with your search and didn’t get it but then I went to google news and typed “man seeks custody kids from flds” and got it

  231. Hoole is representing, Parker is defending. Shumate hearing.

    Hoole wants the Texas evidence to be entered as “accepted” due to previous court trials in Texas to avoid costs of bringing everybody west. Shumate thinks that is iffy because some things may be acceptable as evidence in Texas but not under Arizona law.
    Hoole also wants to interview the mothers to see if they have been made aware of Jeffs, rape of children.
    Parker wants case dismissed on religious freedom (I would think that “dog don’t hunt” anymore) and fact that nobody has proven mothers are under church control.

    Isn’t Shumate one of those rape your daughter spend 1 night in jail, waived for community service, judges?

  232. Does anyone know who the ten men who are exed were ? other-Anon

  233. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53052043-78/trust-court-state-judge.html.csp

    Judge Lindburg blows Shurtleff’s motion out of the water, State ordered to pay, pending sale of flds lands and reimbursement.

  234. More new edicts and proclamations from WSJ — tweets from Lindsay Whitehurst:

    RT @PaulMurphysLaw: Warren Jeffs sends @MarkShurtleff new revelations on US, Australia, China, Russia, Iran, Bolivia, Ecuador & Nicaragua.
    30 minutes ago
    ………………

    RT @PaulMurphysLaw New Warren Jeffs revelation orders #FLDS leaders be released from prison, give back UEP trust tells Turkey 2 help Israel.
    29 minutes ago
    ………………

    RT: @PaulMurphysLaw Warren Jeffs predicts boiling H20, volcanoes, earthquakes, storms, scourge, pestilence & destruction unless we repent.
    22 minutes ago

  235. that a’ boy Warren, make sure every nation knows you are a fruitcake!

  236. Seems like his contact with the outside world should be totally banned for everyone’s benefit.

  237. Sounds good older anon, but we have a Judge here in Texas who says you can’t do that.

  238. Finally got around to start reading “Answer them Nothing”

    Deb Weyerman in her prologue lists “Hope” as a great source – I reckon always on the blog roll here – and then “Flds texas” as her daily news source for breaking flds news and archives.

  239. http://www.childbrides.org/news.html

    seen as “The Hope org” on the blog roll.

    Funny Deb didnt give the URL’s

  240. There is a High School Pic of WSJ on the Poof website now.

  241. FLDS community said to be purging itself of outside influence
    By John Hollenhorst

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=18374088

  242. Also Lindsay Whitehurst’s story about WSJ’s latest threats/proclamations to the world:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53055293-191/jeffs-dated-power-nation.html.csp

  243. I read Lindsay Whitehurst’s article on unkidub’s (oops, I meant “God’s” )latest advice to all. Frankly, I have to admit to having somewhat similar sentiments on the part about Iran…but, whillikers, the part about children having no sin… I think that it shows he never really paid any attention to his own kids. The guy has the comprehension about the minds and personalities of children, of someone who has never parented at all, seems to me. It also shows he is totally out of touch with reality where his crimes are concerned. This is amazing stuff.
    I recall somewhere a few years ago it was reported that he ordered flds children under age eight be sent to yfz as they were “still pure.” Maybe it was in Carolyn Jessop’s book?

    Even though he is a corrupter himself, and has sinned against many children and their parents, I would have to say that, having been a parent who did spend a huge amount of time with both of my kids, I can honestly say that they have made choices lots and lots of times which absolutely have nothing to do with what I would have preferred they do, and which shows they have minds and desires of their own which are not just from “the ways of the parents.” It was that way early on with both my kids.
    Nope, sorry, unki, you are definitely wrong on that little bit of “wisdom” too.. A long time ago, before I had my own, I naively thought kids were “perfect until messed up” by the way they were raised- or only messed up by their childhood environment. I don’t think that simplistically anymore now that I have seen how my kids are as adults. Oh, unki, you ain’t even got it right about the youngins..and yet you have been around so many of them.. Unfortunately, really, really around…but apparently it was only for your own perverse reasons. WOW-he still speaks of purity, even now. After having sex with 12 year olds. MAJOR FRUITLOOP ALERT

  244. Not to mention, how many young boys did warren order to be abandoned by their parents? Parents he did not kick out, but he told them to kick their sons out and have nothing more to do with them?

    Unki, do you therefore mean that pure parents can end up with impure sons? (daughters who become “impure” more richly deserve to be re-educated, of course..) So,unki dear, which is it? Kids stay pure if they are around pure adults? Or pure adults can only stay pure if they get rid of impure sons? Unki, I once again am having lots of trouble with your profit-izing.

  245. Also Lindsay Whitehurst’s story about WSJ’s latest threats/proclamations to the world:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogspolygblog/53055293-191/jeffs-dated-power-nation.html.csp

    Anonymous said this on December 5, 2011 at 9:30 PM

    Well it sounds like ole Warren’s gone over the edge of sanity, he really is begining to sound like Braian David Mitchell! Here’s a link to Jeffs manic ramblings.

    http://local.sltrib.com/upload/2011/12/1323133194jeffsrevelations.pdf

  246. What I find most absurd in WSJ’s “revelations” is all the ridiculous pleading for the law of the land (judges, jailers, etc.) to release him, when if god REALLY wanted him free she could do it in the twinkling of an eye. God don’t need no stinking judge to set her prophet free. Just soooo nutty! Lots of crazy talk and despicable grammar. (I should be more forgiving… maybe god isn’t used to speaking English. Either that or the pedophile prophet’s hand is so busy doing what it loves most, he’s not getting the lord’s dictations properly written. Where is Nomes when you need her!?)

  247. http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4122758n#ixzz1fbiOc8r8

    Willie at his spokesperson best.

    BTW, his name is Edmund, not Edward and he married Dora Mae when she was 16.

  248. What is supposed to happen on Dec. 31. Hope the fed/states have some contingency plans…..

  249. I knew it. I just knew it. For years I’ve been saying that Utah has had a major testing program going on and I’ve often asked about spaceships dropping off people but never coming back to pick them up.

    Maybe they’ve been coming from here :

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45554617/ns/technology_and_science-space/

    And I am thinking that they might have gotten John H. now. Even he is doing the gibberish talk. 😦

    I am putting my tin foil hat on. They aren’t going to get me.

    There is not a damn thing that makes sense out of any of this. Sooner or later someone is going to report the truth and tell the whole story.

    And I hope those yahooos that stood by and did nothing get charged and Big Texas Ranger type guys escort them all to their new homes.

    Walton

  250. Vaughn Taylor and John Barlow must have missed the part where Warren said he wasnt the prophet.

    Its nice they sign their name to that nonsense, I always sign my toilet paper too!

  251. Re that link on KSL

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=18374088

    Hollenhorst “visited shortcreek in 1977 and has been reporting on it ever since”

    (cough cough – not very effectively) but regardless, this was an EXCELLENT video, now that the cult is imploding they are going to give some new details.

    Warren is demanding 5 thousand by the end of the month, and they are interviewing the wives to see if the husband is cheating on the no sex ban (reckon the ones who are jealous would drop the dime) and so some guys are quitting because they see the handwriting on the wall.

    Oh, also, no bikes or any toys for the kids – no, not new toys for Christmas – they have to turn their EXISTING toys in so Warren can sell them.

    The Grinch has arrived in Shortcreek.

    Oh, also, friends in the area say, that the usual hordes of FLDS in local stores like Walmart and Costco have dwindled to nothing.

    Guess they dont have any money left, plus they might have to face the public while their most revered leaders are in prison for child molestation.

    Thats never a good thing.

    The video is a must see. Pretty sad, yet I guess there are people who can say “Told you so”.

  252. I think John H. is a good reporter. I don’t know why or how he got caught up in all this BS. But I have an idea and I hope he finds his way out of any future BS.

    So where is the FBI and the charges that should be brought about? They have been silent. Hmmmm

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700233924/Mueller-questions-need-for-panel-on-FLDS-says-FBI-wont-take-lead.html

    FBI takes a very silent role and allows the “locals” to take charge. (Makes a person feel safe doesn’t it?)

    Walton

  253. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=15493695 Salt Lake FBI office has serious lapses that could jeopardize national security, sources say

    I went looking for the follow up to the above story and couldn’t find it.

    Hmmm wonder what happened here???

    Walton

  254. description of the “faithful” life sounds like hell on earth for all concerned – parents and children. Hoping those who decide to quit will stand their ground and stay in their homes and keep their families close.

    You are dead right Gretchen. nothing right about kicking out your sons. All those who have already been exed need to claim their wives and children – both still in and dumped in surrounding towns.

  255. http://childbrides.org/control.html Don’t forget to read the quote by George G. Woodson

    located at the very top of this page

    And just when you think that things couldn’t get any stranger, it was just a couple of weeks ago that they found out that one of the people writing stories from the DN wasn’t really a reporter but a West Valley City Utah mayor. Google fake reporter Deseret News Valley City Mayor.
    Walton

  256. I don’t know how I can continue to follow the story without speaking up.

    I know right from wrong and this has been wrong.

    The people that are living in Hildale and Colorado City have not been charged with any crimes. If they are breaking the law, they should be charged. And the man hiding behind the curtain should quit with the Revelation Bull S. Enough is enough.

    I watched the following documentary about Lenoard Peltier and though it is dated, and is a bit “choppy” there are some interesting facts that come out. Did you know they also had their own “goon squad” that behaved similar to the “goon squad” from the FLDS?

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4219825247691110146# Incident at Oglala

    Walton

  257. I knew one of the men that was shot during this incident.

    http://bismarcktribune.com/news/local/article_d1e97691-ea36-5a7a-978b-cc529942b019.html Changing lives in 15 seconds a story about the incident near Medina

    Follow this up with the videos on Youtube called Death and Taxes the Gordon Kahl Story. ( LONG but details shared are very important)

    Innocent people were killed.

    I don’t belong to any of these groups. Not the posse, not AIM, not FLDS and not LDS. none.

    But it is wrong to push people to a point of such desperation. I believe in our country. I believe in our system when those running it are working for ALL the people and not just one group.

    Please please stop the BS.

    Walton

  258. Here’s an anon comment from the Texas Polygamy Blog (it’s listed on the blog roll of this blog)

    It carries a word of warning fr the FLDS, get out while you can before it’s too late!

    Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The FLDS are beginning to sound more and more like the Branch Davidians, Warren Jeffs actions come to mirror those of David Koresh. Koresh was also know as David Howell.

    http://bungle2.tripod.com/belief.html

    In the spring of 1985, Howell returned to Texas, and settled in a town called Palestine
    with Rachel and a small group of Davidians.25 He soon began to acquire additional “wives” from
    amongst his followers. In 1986, he took 14 year old Karen Doyle as his second wife, and 12 year
    old Michelle Jones as his third wife.26 Then, in 1987, 17 year old Robyn Bunds and 20 year old
    Dana Okimoto became his fourth and fifth wives.27
    The longstanding rivalry between Howell and George Roden erupted in a shootout at
    Mount Carmel in November 1987. No one was killed, but Howell and his followers were
    indicted and tried for attempted murder. Howell was acquitted at trial. Later that month, Lois
    Roden died of natural causes and Howell assumed power. He changed his name to David Koresh
    in 1990. Koresh meant “death.”

    Above from:

    http://www.apologeticsindex.org/pdf/history.pdf

    Since both Warren & Lyle continue to sound more and more like Koresh, it’s time to get out of the FLDS before its to late. They both have gone insane and will destroy themselves and those who follow them. Remember Lyle & Warren equal death and Koresh means death.

    12/06/2011 12:58 PM

    http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=11081631&postID=6562920288997356278&isPopup=true

    Interesting the Branch Davidans were in Palestine, Texas, as is Warren Jeffs!

  259. Maybe after telling them he was not the profit and they did not believe, he is now trying to drive them away from him with the denial of sex and all joy in life?

  260. Walton,

    I have read that article twice now and although it is sad, I don’t see how it is in any way related to the FLDS or polygamy.

  261. Betty, I posted two links to a couple of videos. Watch them and see if you see anything related to the FLDS story.

    This hasn’t been about Polygamy. If it was we would have seen them “investigating” the other groups.

    Old generation ( dresses and hair) vs. New Generation ( now calling it
    ” choice in lifestyle ” )

    Walton

  262. There are some things I do not understand. If flds men are being exed for having sex with their wives, why are the wives also not being exed? It does take 2 to tango. Could it be that this is just another way to get rid of excess males.? Or is it that the women and children are viewed as goodies to be reassigned to those who obey warren and lyle? Perhaps it is all of these. I do hope the exed men do not quitely go into repentance from afar, but stay in short creek and fight for their property and their families.

  263. gosangelo has article about their receiving of fruitcake Warren’ss new letters.
    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2011/dec/06/county-commisioners-receive-flds-letters-warning/

    ok, time to repeat best T-shirt on the subject:
    God Told Me To Tell You Not To Believe Any Other Person Who Told You That God Spoke To Them, And To Give Me Your Lunch Money.

  264. One reason is, I dont think the women ever really have a say on if they want to have sex or not, if the husband wants it, he gets it, if she wants it, she has to wait in a long line and hope he doesnt skip her.

    That, and the fact the breeders get all those welfare dollars.

  265. I said it before WSJ is MENTALLY UNSTABLE/ INCAPACITATED he’s proving it at this time , telling sheeple tp send $ 5,000 to him , they can’t have toys , trampolines , music / instruments , bicycles , a purge to me , also henchmen interrogate couples to see if his “no sex” edict is being violated , if it is the men are exed , forced , or leave voluntarily a living HELL ! What’s supposed to happen on DEC 31…..other-Anon

  266. Maybe that is exactly what he wants the powers that be to conclude – he is mentally ill – thus possibly getting out of jail. Is that possible?

  267. It would be fine with me if he served his time in a mental hospital prison. It isn’t a “get out of jail free” card.

  268. My theory is that all the men will either quit or be kicked out in the near future leaving all the women and children to then be reassigned to the only man left standing; Warren Steed Jeffs, a man who will likely die in prison.

  269. I agree. Being found mentally ill puts you into a legal purgatory.

  270. Anonymous at 8:28 PM , you’re theory sounds good , but what may happen is his hardcore Warren-ite men will stay with the insane man & get the reassigned women & kids after he & Lyle has kicked out & exed men out of here , those who quit are admitting Warren/Lyle/Henchmen can defeat them & lose their families & properties to King Warren ! ….other-Anon

  271. Are any of the women leaving with their ex’d men? Or is the fear of/love for WJ still so great that they stay? With the “no sex goon squad” making visits and taking notes, life must just be one big barrel of laughs in the Creek. How sad they are still under the spell of a loon.
    I’m a day and half E of Sydney…what ever pox he has planned for Australia, [per: Anon Dec 5 4:04pm] I hope he can wait a week! Not abt to let him ruin my vacation!

  272. Eventually, that numbers game is going to implode, other-anon. It really cannot exist with out constant donations of money and labor. If they end up with no one but a few old men and lots and lots of babymakers, there’s going to be a few problems with that plan.

  273. mc1199 askd, “Are any of the women leaving with their ex’d men?”

    Yes, some are. The big problem is that while the men are away from home trying to make a living (and pedophile tithes), Lyle and his hoods sweep in, tell the women and children that their priesthood head has lost his priesthood, therefore he cannot exalt them, then hide them away so that when hubby comes home he faces… nothing! There are various versions on that theme. The women (and certainly the children) are given no recourse. A few strong women are savvy enough to refuse the deal and stay with their husbands. But it usually goes Lyle’s way.

  274. I agree with Betty, if they ex too many men of if a lot of the men just give up and leave they will not have enough wage earners to keep the outfit going. Prison has finally driven warren bonkers.

  275. I heard a grandmother was kicked out for saying that Warren was a fraud. Maybe some are listening.

  276. The San Angelo newspaper reports that the building under construction at YFZ is a massive domed building, so guess the Warranites are trying to hide the statue of the felonious profit from view from air. Paper also reports that demands for cash from FLDS members to pay for YFZ projects.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2011/dec/06/jeffs-ups-demands-on-followers/

  277. Just WOW

    Just when you thought it couldnt get any kookier.

    With dwindling numbers of men, they will have to start charging the left over families 10 k a month.

    But… If every last guy has thirty wives still on welfare, that seems doable. Dont know how they will eat though.

    Guess they should name the new construction at YFZ the “Welfare Dome”

    Nah I like @sstroDome

  278. So Warren is still abusing his flock, all the way down to the little children.

    How special. It fits right into his MO.

    Too bad for him, a lot of the FLDS are finally fed up.

    I predict 2012 to be the end of the Warrenite nonsense.

    Details at 11.

  279. I thought a good part of being exalted is overpopulating the earth with as many babies as possible. So is Warren saying no sex becuase he is afraid that his baby count will be less than others under him? If he reassigns wives and kids to those who are left then he does run the risk of not having the most. There must be some kind of a formula – @count(wives + kids) = the bigger and better planets to be god over.

    as for the question, what happens on Dec 31? I am going to guess that those left in will move to either Pringle or zipper ranch. With the mass building at both of late there must be a reason for it. Maybe there is a limit of who can go there and they have to slim down the crowd at the creek. Wonder if Pringle and Zipper ranch also have their own sex goons are is just the creek being targetted.

  280. Hard to know what is going on at YFZ and Pringle since they are closed compounds. At shortcreek the “apostates” can get the word out. I suspect the same edicts apply to all memebers excep possibly for the $5000 per month.

  281. Any SHEEPLE / warren-ites who follow WSJ/Lyle/ Henchmen now are doing it out of stupidity , you can’t fix STUPID ! His henchmen want power , control , manipulation , a Despot it sounds like to me , he’s telling people about his revelations/ predictions how they will affect the world , how ironic in 2012 ! Too bad many tv info shows predict something happening like that also next year , I think his revelations came off those tv info shows , better quit watching tv shows like that , it’s affecting reality for you (dubya) , LOL …… other-Anon

  282. Hey Uncle Warren!

    That Mayan Calendar voodoo has climbed on your back!

    Can you hold it together with FLDS glue or are you gonna blow it apart?

  283. The windows on the front of the new structure show it has a slope–I think it is a “tabernacle” with stadium-style seating, to go along with the temple (just like the mainstream Church has a temple & tabernacle on Temple Square: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Lake_Tabernacle).

  284. The windows on the front of the new structure show it has a slope–I think it is a “tabernacle” with stadium-style seating, to go along with the temple (just like the mainstream Church has a temple & tabernacle on Temple Square: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Lake_Tabernacle).

  285. What they need is about a half hour on the internet so they can get a clue.

    uh oh, internet has been banned!

    But sources say they get the word regardless.

    They know of the evil, its just been hard coming to grips – however being held up for five grand and being forced to kiss Warren’s ring through Lyle the evil conduit is going to be the last straw for many.

  286. Chaps at 2:50 PM , I hope your right , although I don’t think it will happen any time soon ….. other-Anon

  287. Eldorado Success has a sketch that is Warren and the little girl.

  288. The sketch is supposed to be a preliminary outline of the statue. Not showing on the sketch, which is of the bust, is said to also be a little girl.

    How touching, never forget.

    Also.

    Merril Jessop reported moved to Huntsville.

    TDCJ Inmate # 1745826

  289. Where do you get that Chaps? My information says he’s in Jester III in Fort Bend, Texas.

    SID Number: 04895739 TDCJ Number: 01745826 Name: JESSOP,FREDERICK MERRIL Race: W Gender: M DOB: 1935-12-27 Maximum Sentence Date: 2021-11-04 Current Facility: JESTER III Projected Release Date: 2016-06-16 Parole Eligibility Date: 2012-12-30
    SPECIAL INFORMATION FOR SCHEDULED RELEASE:

    Scheduled Release Date: Offender is not scheduled for release at this time. Scheduled Release Type: Will be determined when release date is scheduled. Scheduled Release Location: Will be determined when release date is scheduled.

    Offense History:
    Offense Date Offense Sentence Date County Case No. Sentence (YY-MM-DD)
    2006-07-27 CONDUCT CEREMONY PROH LAW 2011-11-08 SCHLEICHER 1016 10-00-00

  290. It won’t be the same out there without teens zipping around on their ATVs. Do the girls have to get rid of their horses?

  291. Interesting article:

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2695939.ece

  292. Related

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/article2608521.ece

  293. They have the whole picture including the little girl in the newspaper.

  294. They have the whole picture including the little girl in the newspaper.

    Proud Texan said this on December 7, 2011 at 7:37 PM

    Yes that’s true, here’s a link: http://www.myeldorado.net/index.php/local-news/local-news

    If the link doesn’t work, it shows drawing of that felonious profit wearing robe like clothes like one might see worn by a Catholic monk, Jeffs is holding a book in his left hand, his right hand reaching down to a female child. The child is wearing the “prairie” dress of the FLDS. The drawing indicates statue is 30 feet high, which interestingly enough is the same as the walls around the mystery building.

  295. That’s creepy.

  296. Well, at least now we know why they wanted it covered.

  297. Thanks “A Texan”, the link worked. I have wondered what it looked like. Yes, very creepy and sick minded. Demanding money from families who need it to feed/clothe their children to make an idol of a pedophile.

  298. It’s especially odd since he has very viciously insisted on the destruction of statues to other, former leaders of the FLDS and called it idolatry. So as long as it’s a statue of HIM, it’s idolatry is OK, I guess.

  299. It doe not look like anything LDS related. It looks more like a cassock that catholic priests may wear. Have no idea why that robe style is being used for a flds “prophet”. Just more nuttiness from the flds.

  300. Beyond grotesque

  301. If the structure at the ranch is a tabernacle & if it’s a domed one , WSJ’s following the LDS in that respect , I thought the FLDS was trying to get away from all things LDS , apparently not , what a loonie , he belongs in a loonie bin …. other-Anon

  302. Proud Texan

    The Eldorado Success has the report on Jessop moving to the Byrd unit.

    The inmate # is the same, but yours is preceded with a “0”

    BTW

    Pretty good start on “Answer them Nothing”

    OK I am mad all over again.

    Friggen Utah, Shumate, Beacham, SCOU… How limp wristed they are when it comes to dealing with these moron molesters.

    Glad Texas knows how to rope these dopes.

  303. Yes, it strikes me as Catholic also. In fact, the robe is a bit like a Franciscan, even has the rope belt.

    Here’s a very similar one of St Vincent de Paul only he has an infant rather than a book in his arms.
    http://www.marypages.com/VincentdePaul.htm
    and another
    http://churchofsaintrocco.org/?page_id=30

    and here’s Francis with the robe, rope belt and a book
    http://www.st-francis-medal.com/st-francis-novena.htm

    Also, I’ll note that the Catholic pictures made the children look somewhat gender non specific, also their faces are not EXACTLY crotch high relative to the saint. So although St Vincent looks like he’s protecting poor children, WSJ looks like he’s saving girl children for himself. Maybe that’s the point. Bring me your girl children and I will “save” them.

  304. LOL – “also their faces are not EXACTLY crotch high relative to the saint”

    I have to admit I thought the exact thing!!

    Maybe the artist is catholic. If the artist put him in a suit then he would looked too “LDS”. I thought prison stripes would be more appropriate.
    I even had a nice fantasy of someone sneaking in and painting stripes and his prison number on him.

  305. maybe also in the fantasy a ball and chain would be added to his ankle. Now thinking of it, the ball and chain is really on the sheeple’s ankle instead.

  306. Looks like Friar Tuck

    Oh wait, its Warren “Try a Phuck”

  307. Always thought a statue of Warren grinning for his hairless mug shot would be appropriate.

    It has the “Dr Evil” mojo going with it..

  308. President Barack Obama has granted Warren Jeffs and his followers their freedom!

    Spaceship scheduled to lift off, 1-1-2012

  309. WHAT? Please tell me you are joking.

  310. John Llewellyn has a new entry on his blog :
    http://polygamybooks.org/2011/12/08/islams-inhumanity-towards-women.aspx

  311. I believe that a woman would preach that Mohammed required women to wear particular robes, but in fact he did not. In the first 100 years of Islam women did not even wear viels. All of that was added later.

    Not that that negates the horrors of treatment of women in fundamentalist Islam, but once an article introduces things I know to be wrong as fact, I then tend to discount the rest of what it has to say.

  312. Just joking. Had a flashback to Heaven’s Gate, and seeing Warren’s obsession with laying claim to another planet, thought a spaceship would be appropriate.

    I think he is gonna have to wait until he is a spirit and then swim there like a sperm.

  313. Anonymous At 4:49 PM I have be thinking a lot about Heaven’s Gate & how it fits so perfectly into weirdo WSJ’s obsessions , get out the Kool-Aid ! lol .. other-Anon

  314. Chaps, that story in the Success is when he was originally moved to Huntsville from Schleicher County. Since then he has been processed and moved to his new home which is Jester III.

  315. Proud Texan

    I dont know much about the Texas prison system (learning more every month it seems) so I did a search on the Jester 3 unit.

    The first post I came across was pretty funny.

    “11-29-2008, 04:41 PM

    Lenorat, I’ve moved your thread to the Jester I, III, IV section of the Texas Forum, where you’ll find more answers. We don’t have a lot of members with loved ones in these units, but we do have some that may can help you.

    I asked my husband (who spent 1 1/2 years in the trustee camp at Jester III) his take on your post and his response was that the only reason that he could come up with for someone moving from Jester I to Jester III was for being caught doing something that he shouldn’t have been doing. He says they wouldn’t move just one person without cause.

    This probably isn’t the response you wanted to hear, and it’s entirely possible that it’s not the case. I hope for your sake, that my hubby is wrong. ”

    ——

    he he he

    http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-379216.html

  316. Sounds like a wonderful place for Jessop

    “My hubby is at SAPF Jester I…….two weeks ago he was telling me about someone that got sent to Jester III for fighting .

    They have a zero tolerance for acting out there so if they do they send them over there for a shock treatment of sorts instead of going back to county and getting sent to TDC.”

    So Merril is going to the “Shock Treatment” part of the TDCJ system….

    Straight to hell it appears.

  317. BTW that would never happen in Utah, they would have slapped him on the ass and said “keep the faith”

  318. 996,854 visitors, at this rate hitting a million in a week

    Whats the prize?

    😀

  319. We keep on keeping on…

  320. Anyone else think the child in the sketch resembles Warren’s (then) 12-year-old victim?

  321. Yes, though a little smaller – and hence, creepier.

    A child of that size would soon find out her sex slave destiny – regardless of State and Federal laws.

    Well, until Warren tried fiddlen in Texas.

  322. Stamp a little further down someone posted;

    Jester I is a SAFP unit
    Jester III is a hospital unit with a trusty camp (trusty’s are not hospital patients at all)
    Jester IV is the mental facility
    All 3 units are prisons and part of TDCJ – they just serve different types of needs.

    My husband was in the trusty camp, which is so very different from the units. The rules are much more relaxed at a trusty camp – they can come and go in and out of the facility during the day as they want. They have jobs or classes if able, but during free time can do so much more than the regular units. I can tell you that hubby worked at J4 for a while and that’s not somewhere you want a loved one to be! He didn’t like being in there at all!

    Maybe Warren needs to be sent to Jester IV. He certainly sounds like it. Hope Merrill doesn’t get too much latitude in Jester III.

  323. Stamp, the prize for 1 million ought to be Shurtleff’s head on a platter.

  324. Shurtleff’s head on a platter ? Seems fair and reasonable to me.

  325. Happy Holidays …

    In reading through these posts I cant help but feel the Love and concern
    the world has for the innocent in Colorado City / Hildale.

    There are many children here. I have taken bags of clothing and shoes
    to neighborhoods here where kids have never had new ( anything ). Just
    a pair of shoes without holes in them is appreciated.
    If you feel it in your heart to reach out , I would be happy to distribute
    clothing to needy children here. A new coat or even a used one would
    bring smiles and giggles of joy. My heart breaks for some of them. I have often thought that ” If I could ” i would like to swoop them up and take them
    to a nicer place.

    Sister Mackert PO Box 707 Colorado City Arizona 86021

  326. What wonderful sentiments, Sister Mackert. Best of luck with your work.

  327. Ditto. Thanks for sharing.

  328. Sister Mackert- you mean the flds people in hildale/cc would accept clothing and shoes for their children from non-flds? you don’t think they would want to continue the zero contact with non-flds (unless it is a business situation?) It seems whenever “gentiles” try to help by sharing something, it gets discarded as evil or whatever. Those thousands of donated books that were burned or stolen, all the stuff that was donated down in San Angelo, TX that was supposedly described as “junk” by the flds children- (yes, I realize it was during the “raid” time period)…

    It seems to me that flds should be left alone regarding donations, especially while Warren is having them list everything and sell off their kids’ toys. I know I for one can’t spare even the money to ship something to you unless I could feel assured it wasn’t going to just get trashed immediately. These people have done and said so many things which hurt “outsiders” feelings, causing resentment and anger. We have feelings too, and we have tight budgets in some cases. These people always seem to want the rest of us to totally stay away from them in every way, unless there is money to be made from non-flds. What in the world is the truth about these people, anyway?
    Also,what is the point of trying to do anything civil or generous for them especially if they could get punished for accepting anything? I am confused because I have read time and again that they teach their kids to run away from all people except flds, etc etc etc –and that we are all going to he## that don’t “love the prophet.” Or are you talking about non-flds? In my lifetime, I have done as much donating as I can. But in the case of flds, I think it’s risky even bothering to try. They really seem to look down on the rest of the world, and they seem very confuisng in a number of ways.

    Sorry if what I said bothers anyone, but I have spent an enormous amount of time studying flds, and I don’t get it. Really, I don’t. Why don’t some of them just tell Warren they don’t even have adequate winter clothing for their children? If he is such a “perfect man” what in the world would he say to them?

  329. He would say, “Oh ye of little faith!”

  330. Sister Mackert, you are a shining example of unconditional love. Thank you for showing us what we all should be doing.

  331. No, we shouldn’t “all be doing” what Sister Mackert does. She was flds, she knows the culture, and sometimes can get a foot in the door because she is related to many of the warren faithful both in the US and Canada. Flds are responsible for much of what they are going through. Giving vast sums to warren’s control when their own youngters don’t have enough. Bah humbug, people. flds need to start realizing they are part of the US, that’s what they really need. A hole in a shoe isn’t a big deal.

    You go right ahead and send “Sister Mackert” whatever you want. She doesn’t know who I am- gretchen is not my real name. I have already helped a few times, and I have given many hours to try to argue the plight of flds women and children, and am too disgusted to do it again. I have been through so much in my own life, and I am so confused by the flds ways and reasoning, I think they are one of the least deserving bunch I have ever heard about.
    I’ll keep my giving aimed at those who do not think like, or do the treacherous things that flds do.

  332. My, my… from the keyboard of a true Christian… hmmm?
    Ready — set — ignore.

  333. I’m very grateful for the Christians who gave me unconditional love when I was still in the FLDS. Their kindness and non-judgmental support helped me to find the real love of God, and it was God who gave me the courage to leave. If we can all extend that hand of kindness and friendship, there are those who are looking, who will find that hand, and always be grateful for that help they found in that desperate hour of soul-searching when you come to realize that your belief system is false. Real Christians know “it’s not about you… it’s about reflecting God’s love”. So, again, please support efforts by individuals and the local community who are extending that support to people who need it. Leave the judging to God. My thanks go to Denise Bienz (sign language interpreter), the Salt Lake Christian Center, Women Aglow, my family, and to God for taking the broken spirit I was then, and helping me to find the path that was always part of “his” plan.

  334. I’m guessing that Sister Mackert is thinking as much of the children who belong to those who have been kicked out but still live in the area. I know that the area is very poor and there are lots with needs.

  335. Abram Harker Jeffs appeal is ready to be set. Appellant requested oral arguments and the State didn’t.

  336. Sister Mackert, you’ll be receiving a package from me.

  337. If it made any difference to the flds kids to receive clothes ,socks , etc , I could see it , but to their parents it’s from an apostate or gentile , so the kids & parents will not appreciate & acknowledge an act of charity from non-flds members or gentiles , clothes , donations may end up in the trash , remember If a comes from former members or gentiles it must be evil , because they are evil & going to hell , so I don’t see it changing their attitude toward apostates or gentiles , things are going to happen like it has in the past , remember the sheeple don’t believe in or celebrate Christmas , I seen it before with when I used to be with them , they will see the holiday as just another day , their taught any day is a gift giving day …. other-Anon

  338. Nor do FLDS participate in charity to others.

  339. But what if there are some needy under Jessop that might accept it or some of the recently exed? What do you think?

  340. I’ll be rounding up some stuff to be sent.

  341. Does anyone remember when the ranch was raided and Heidi Foster Kingston and Mary B. stood on the steps talking about what a wonderful job that they did gathering up donations for the kids at the Ranch?

    Tv’s, cassetts, reading material, toys, bikes, clothing, money?

    How many of those bikes has anyone seen in the photos provided by the pilot?

    How many tv’s do you suppose they have at the Ranch?

    http://www.polygamy.com/index.php/news/mormon/utah-polygamists-rally-in-support-of-children-taken-in-texas-raid/

    And the books? the ones still sitting at the jailhouse? lol

    I don’t know who “Sister Mackert” is as I’ve never seen her post here. but then anyone could sign in and use anyones name.

    Whose to say that the donations wouldn’t be going to help those involved with Princpal Voices (those that kept silent when knowing about the abuses in the FLDS and only speak out to promote the practice of Polygamy)

    Safety Net isn’t of any help as they’ve made different ones feel so uncomfortable that they won’t even attend the meetings. The Safety Net was suppose to be for all those leaving the Practice but instead became the go- to place to promote the practice.

    The UEP Trust is worth how much? 110 million ? And they are still giving Warren money?

    If these parents are letting their children run in the cold my suggestion is not to provide them free coats but to make a call to CPS and report their arses.

    Walton

  342. I’ve been reading dictations tonight.

    February 10, 2006 – Joseph Steed brought 2 wives, Ilene and Janice to the ranch along with all the Joseph Steed children 8 years and younger. That included 11 children. 3 were the children of Ilene with Ron Rohbock and the other 8 were all taken from their mothers to be brought to the ranch. Jance didn’t have any children with Joseph.

    By June 2006 Joseph is exed and the wives were remarried to other men. That put 8 children at the ranch without their biological father or mother and to think that the FLDS went crazy when CPS took custody of the children. It’s not like they were being raised by their parents anyway.

  343. More power to you if William Jessop’s followers accept clothing ,etc from anyone ,but remember his sheeple don’t believe in or celebrate Christmas , remember they had been part of Warren’s group & it may take them a while to figure things out , it’s possible they might get suspicious , Thug Willie is still with them , nobody knows what’s been taught to them very recently , we just don’t know how they will react to charity , favorably I hope !.. other-Anon

  344. Also on February 10, Warren was getting ready to have group sex with 5 sisters, Paula, Esther, Naomie, Ruthie and Ida Vilate, all sealed t him and all from the same father and mother (Merril Jessop and wife Ruth), but suddenly he had a vision of severity and he sent Paula, Esther and Ruthie away. He later tells that Patricia Keate and Mille are pregnant from heavenly sessions.

    “I put on record also, we found out this evening that Patricia Keate Jeffs is with child. So now two ladies, Mildred Annie Jessop Jeffs and Patricia Keate Jeffs are expecting. Having done it right, receiving that gift in the heavenly sessions.”

  345. Mac Blackmore was diagnosed with Lympoma Leukemia, a very severe case, in May 2005. Warren decided he should go ahead with treatment.

  346. I highly doubt the Jessop faction would reject donations of useful items. And whether they celebrate Christmas or not has nothing to do with needing a warm coat or a pair of un-holey shoes (pardon the pun). Such things would be gratefully accepted.

    The same would have been true of the FLDS before Warren took over. Now, it’s unclear, given how much more bizarre their sad situation is continuing to evolve.

    Causing innocent children to suffer for basic needs because of religious blindness of the adults is abusive.

  347. EJay , I hope your right about the Jessop faction & I’m wrong . other-Anon

  348. I didnt realize that I would create a problem by offering to deliver items
    to needy familys and children. My husband and I moved here several years
    ago to be eyes and ears. We have struggled to survive the wall of rejection
    we faced. When we drive through town we wave at every car. We wave and smile at the kids and my husband has quite a few of them throwing up the peace sign. The mothers often discourage our contact, but we do it anyway. They know who we are and have accepted us because all we do is sunshine. We have stopped in the trailer houses and emptied entire truckloads of t shirts, pocket knives, rubber nunchucks, shoes, shirts
    dresses , second hand etc, to kids who looked at us like they had just hit the jackpot. I haven’t felt better than the feeling i had driving away with an empty truck.
    Anyone who sends Items to my P.O , would you kindly include a way for me
    to send you a link to my facebook page. I will put a folder of pictures together that shows us handing off.

    I am sorry for not thinking that this would appear as a scam. Its not the way I think. I apoligize 🙂

    Mrs. Mackert

  349. You Rock, Mrs. Mackert! Keep on smiling and waving and loving 🙂

  350. Causing innocent children to suffer for basic needs because of religious blindness of the adults is abusive.

    EJay said this on December 10, 2011 at 12:11 AM

    —–
    http://anna-marie-bowman.hubpages.com/hub/What-is-Child-Abuse-and-How-to-Spot-it

    From the article: A child who is neglected is constantly hungry, dirty or lacks sufficent clothing for weather conditions. They may resort to stealing food or clothing. They often have poor hygiene. If a parent forgets to send a jacket along on the off chance that the day might be chilly, that is usually of no concern, but if a child is out in the cold, on a winter day with no coat, that is a problem.

    Not reporting neglect is abusive. Doesn’t matter what Religion they believe in. Neglect is neglect.

    Coughing up 5,000 monthly for Warren and not providing your kids coats in the winter time is neglect.

    If these were meth addicts would it go unreported?

    If this is the real Mrs. Mackert – I am sure she understands why I and maybe some others are a little cautious. I wasn’t always this skeptical about things. Some things have changed since following these stories.

    Mrs. Mackert – Deseret Media Companies does a lot with helping provide coats and clothing for needy children. Maybe they can help out and possibly announce a drive in one of their media outlets. The program thru KSL is called Quarters for Christmas.

    Walton

  351. What is the address for Sister Mackert’s charity ?

  352. Scroll up BiB, it is up the page.

  353. I have mixed feelings on charity. On the one hand, there is only so much money available and there are so many in need all over the planet. So it makes sense to be picky about which charities you favor and to set priorities on what will do the most good. On the other hand, Jesus did not say to give to the worthy poor, or the poor who would use your gifts wisely. He just said to give to the poor, visit the sick and those imprisoned, no qualifications. I guess if doing the right thing were easy, every one would do it.

  354. Or even knowing what the right thing to do is. Sometimes that’s hard.

  355. Mrs. Mackert,

    I couldn’t help but recognize the last name. How are we related, cause if your last name is Mackert and you were FLDS then you are somehow related to my father Clyde C Mackert? btw…My name is Brian Mackert.

  356. Yay for Mrs. Mackert! Any guidance on what types/colors of coats and things would be most appreciated? I assume we’re still avoiding red….

    And don’t worry, Walton, we’re all entitled to be a little jaded.

  357. Brian Mackert, the last chapters of your book moved me intensely.

  358. Please remind me the name of Brians book?

  359. Illegitimate

  360. This comment comes simply because I’m so outraged and so disappointed….

    And simply because I dare to pour my heart out only to this blog about these issues.

    I just found out my finance’s grandfather, Alma Barlow, called Brazil nuts “nigger toes”. And thats only how my fiance knew them until his teenage years. I’m so ashamed we have people like that on american soil. I’m ashamed people like that are alive.

    I’m steaming that so much hate can be thrown so casually into an innocent childs life.

    So mad….I can’t even type.

    I know it’s a stupid thing to be mad over…but this is one example over many. I’m upset I have to fix this broken wonderful man. Honored, but mad. If that makes sense in the slightest.

    Don’t you all just feel like pulling your hair out sometimes over all this FLDS stuff?

    K, I feel better now.

  361. Disgusting. Sorry you were exposed to that, Ariel.

  362. Ariel – was it because he was kicked out and considered the most evil man on Earth (along with all the others kicked out)? I truly can’t understand how people can turn it on and off overnight.

    I know of one man who was exed about a year ago. He has some very small children who he isn’t allowed to see. The other day he went to the house to see them on the 4 year old scream in fear until she passed out. What the mothers are doing to these children isn’t love, it’s a form of child abuse.

  363. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/31/prairie-dress-fashion-opr_n_181032.html

    Part of Oprah’s interview with the teen girls. Wonder if Teresa, Brenda Lei, Loretta Jane are in the group.

  364. For the record, lots of people used to call Brazil nuts “nigger toes.” I have heard it a few times in the past, I think from people that were raised in states more south on the map in the US, but I am not sure, it was a long time ago.. I have lived in several US states.I don’t think calling one little snack item by a name thousands of people used for the same thing years ago is a good enough reason to say someone is “broken.” I don’t like racist sounding things either, but you know what, blacks often refer to themselves as “niggahs” in their own songs these days- had you noticed? And Ariel, since maybe you don’t get out of Utah much, you may not witness “reverse racism,” because plenty of it exists in the US- where “whites” are bad just because of their skin hue.

    On my other item today-I know in scripture we are told not to talk about what we give as offerings to God. That is why I didn’t specify anything a few days ago when I vented some questions and anger on this blog after “Sister Mackert” solicited items for “the many children.” I am angry too often now. Today is my last time on this blog. I can’t deal with the plyg stuff anymore. It riles and confuses me no end.
    I just want to say, it’s great someone is trying to show love to plyg kids that need some better stuff to wear (Mrs. Mackert.) I have known of her activities for several years. I considered helping her regularly at one time but it wasn’t possible for me to follow through after a couple gifts. My own situation is too difficult.
    I am sure every time someone tries to show compassion to flds, at least maybe a few of them will get weaker in their mental conditioning that all non-flds are totally evil. Carolyn Jessop told how her eyes began to open regarding this when she was taking her disabled little boy to the hospital and saw how the non-flds medical personnel treated her son and her child.
    I made a couple donations directly to Mrs. Mackert a few years ago because I had been receiving her ministry updates that she was emailing some people at the time. She then began to try to sell me health food products- I bought some outrageously over-priced, bad-tasting “chocolate” which four relatives of mine where I live said they also couldn’t stomach, after I tried to pass some around. I emailed Mrs. Mackert to tell her I couldn’t use a good portion of the stuff I had bought, and knew she was trying to get more people selling the stuff. She emailed back that she had a young woman up there where she lives, close to the Canadian border, who would use it in her own attempt to sell these products. Mrs. Mackert offered to buy back the portion I didn’t want but I insisted on sending it back to her for free, as an additional way to help her in her life up there in Idaho. I had been enjoying her occasional emails as she was going onward trying to stay involved with the polygamists in various ways.
    The biggest need of the polygamists is to understand Calvary covers it all, as the old hymn goes. Mrs. Mackert and I both know that very well.When I learned in early 2005 that western US plyg groups equate eternal salvation with polygamy, and I learned the kinds of things done to the children in this vein, I it motivated me to do what I could- I made phone calls, I started blogging and commenting and studying. These people right here in the US have been told every day since birth,and for generations, that polygamy equals salvation. It’s why they won’t stop practicing it. So, God be praised if some are accepting things from Mrs. Mackert, and from any one else who is trying to reach these people that crave to know God but are on a false track. I know that some of them are indeed now figuring it out, because of God’s grace, and through the prayers and efforts of many. I believe Shield and refuge supporters now go out in march or April to CC/Hildale to distribute Christian reading materials, hanging them on doorknobs in many cases. I think only a few flds area people have spoken to them, but I wonder what will happen this coming year.

    I am sick and tired of the whole polygamy thing so badly now that it’s high time I bowed out. I gave many hours to writing news commentary over the past several years, trying to help educate the “average” newspaper readership about flds. I felt led to do it, as so many people are unaware of the facts on flds beliefs and practices. When I can, I send tiny donations to Shield and Refuge. Doris Hanson, the host of this great program, knows Mrs. Mackert well.
    I feel comfortable helping Shield and Refuge because they have the structure in place to assist those questioning or wanting out of polygamy, and the Shield and Refuge newsletter arrives in my mailbox frequently. Many people are contacting this fine group now. They really want help in establishing a safe house facility and they do whatever else they can.
    I know Mrs. Mackert had a dream of buying a tract of land to open a safe place for those wanting out of plyg groups.
    Just in case anybody thinks I have a cold heart, you don’t know anything about me, friends, except that I get fed up after much work, that’s what do you know, ok?
    Best wishes to each one. –

    The erstwhile “gretchen”

  365. Hi

    One of several reasons my parents moved when I was about 2nd grade was over “n…. toes” and also the chant eeny miney moe which in that neighborhood (1962 thereabouts, S. Arizona) was catch a “n…” by the toe.

  366. My mother used to say the same chant, HHG. She was from East Texas.

  367. Third Cousin…Thanks for your encouraging words about the book. Those last chapters wereamong the hardest to write. Not emotionally but because there were so many great things that God had done in my life and there were many great trials that I had experienced too. The hard part was knowing what to include and what not to enclude and when to end the story. I finally decided to end it with my father’s funeral and a summary narrative and that was nicely fulfilled using the symbolism of the family crest and the metaphores I could draw from it.

    Other chapters were extremely difficult to write. My co-author in those chapters labored to get me to open up emotionally because I sounded so distant and disconnected from the emotional aspects of those stories. Finally I had to sit down with a digital recorder and allow a trusted friend to interview me about those stories and ask the tough questions, push deep into the emotions, and eventually bring me to a breaking point where the emotions would come flooding out. Then I sent those recordings to my co-author who did a great job of inserting the emotional content into the stories when I couldn’t. The part in the phsyciatrists office when I finally spoke aloud the reasons I wanted to kill my father I was able to write on my own because I simply tapped into my anger which is a much easier emotion for me to connect with.

    One thing that I’ve learned in the extensive counseling I’ve been through over the years is that polygamy leaves much deeper wounds than you can imagine even when there isn’t physical or sexual abuse involved. To this day the environment I grew up in still impacts my relationships. Having healthy relationships is something that takes constant attention to details and emotions I was trained to ignore as a child. It’s a fine line I walk in maintaining a healthy manly brovado while not emotionally disconnecting which is my natural predisposition.

  368. Thank you for sharing Brian. My mother and I have both read your book and found i a good read and very enlightening. I really enjoyed the male perspective found in your book, Jason William’s book “Zero Chance” and in Brent Jeffs’ book “Lost Boys”. They each offer a view from the male side and each is different enough to make for good reading.

    Please keep posting here. Your input and opinion is valued.

  369. Brian your book was terrific. I don’t think that Mrs. Mackert is the same person as Mary Mackert, Gretchen. I think that they are two different individuals.

  370. No…Mrs. Mackert isn’t my sister Mary, she isn’t married.

  371. With weirdo Warren purging people & telling sheeple to get rid of their kids toys ,trampolines , music / instruments , ATV’s , bicycles & unprofitable animals , & who knows what else , I think your going to see a lot of sheeple try to squeeze as much as they can out of their possessions Warren told them to get rid of , that seems to be standard operating procedure with the sheeple , beat their possessions up , then sell it for outrageous amounts . As for $ 5,000 a month , remember he’s also doing this because he needs the money for his lands of refuge , his appeal in court , he still thinks he can be free , by appealing , all he’s doing is squeezing money away from the sheeple , remember he’s their PROFIT , PROPHET , sound similar ? lol . He’s doing population control without realizing it , by telling sheeple they can’t have kids or have sex until he’s out of prison , sounds like the clowns are running this 3 ring circus , lol ….other-Anon

  372. Gretchen – I am hoping that it wasn’t my “jaded” posts that have made you feel the need to quit posting. It is true. I have become jaded but not without reason.

    I have felt like you many times over thru out the years. I just wanted to walk away and say enough already. But I can’t forget the stories. Or the whisper of Carolyns voice when she was talkling about how Warren pulled at this girls hair.

    I know there are many innocent people on both sides of the issue that have used their voices, their blogging and their journalistic talents to tell the story. And we are still following the stories because we ALL still care.

    Please just take a break and post when you can.

    Walton

    Third Cousin- I never wanted to be a person that is so skeptical. It didn’t happen over night. Maybe I should feel bad for questioning certain things. but I don’t. and even though it appears I am totally cold hearted, I really do have a spot in my heart for many of those we’ve read about. and in fact for the many who have written about it all.

  373. Walton, I am confident there is no one on this blog who would describe you as “cold-hearted.” Quite the opposite in fact. Hang in there.

  374. I think that given the fact that we read (and some know) about situations where children are deprived of love, food, and comfort so that the aristocracy of the FLDS can perpetuate pedophilia and raise statues to themselves and lavish goods on the royal families makes it difficult to give, when one knows that goods have gone out the other door to raise money for Jeffs’ perversions.

    That does not mean that one has less love or concern for those children trapped in the FLDS, just a possibly realistic assessment of the current situation….

    In this time of need of so many some might chose to give their discretionary goods and cash to others (individuals they know are struggling to foster FLDS families who have bailed, “lost boys”, or their own local food banks.)

    It is kind of like the argument one frequently hears if they are concerned about the environment or their local humane society, that the love and concern that they give in one cause diminishes their capacity to love and care in another.

    I believe that we all have the capacity to love and care for multiple causes and doing one thing does not diminish the other.

    I am grateful to those of you who chose to donate via Mrs. Mackert to the children of the Crick. I am grateful to those of you who chose to donate elsewhere.

    And I am most grateful to all of those of you who chose to care.

  375. I’m choosing to give to those who have bailed by supporting Holding Out HELP.

  376. Holding Out HELP is starting a national fundraising / awareness campaign. The goal for this campaign is to raise funds for the many services Holding Out HELP (HOH) provides for individuals leaving polygamist communities. As the demand for services increases, it has become apparent that additional funding is needed in order to serve these individuals and families.
    We have partnered with the producers of the documentary, “Son’s of Perdition”. It is the story of polygamy’s exiled youth. This film was featured on Oprah Winfrey’s Documentary Club. We are encouraging those that want to help, to hold a movie night, showing the film to help bring awareness to this cause. Our goal is not only to raise awareness, but also to raise funds and inspire those that attend to hold their own showing of the film, and so on, spreading the word. You will have the opportunity to follow the progress through our website at http://www.holdingouthelp.org.

    The cost is $25 for the movie/fundraising packet. It will guide you through the steps to an effective evening. The packet includes the DVD, brochure on HOH, FAQ sheets on HOH and polygamy, and the invitations. Contact information is also provided if you needed to speak to a representative from HOH. In addition, there is opportunity to hire the boys in the movie, the producers, or an HOH representative, to speak, or have a Skype conversation with your group. Elissa Wall, who wrote “Stolen Innocence”, is also available for a limited number of speaking engagements.

    For more information, or to order a packet, please email me your information and I will contact you to schedule your movie night. We are excited about this fundraiser and hope you will join us in making a difference in the lives of these people.

    Sincerely,
    Tonia Tewell
    Executive Director, Holding Out HELP
    tt@holdingouthelp.org
    http://www.holdingouthelp.org

  377. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but someone has stolen “Mrs Mackert’s” computer.

    “Her” computer ALSO posted this:

    Submitted on 2011/10/29 at 1:56 AM Gen Disc 66

    “BREAKING NEWS

    FLDS Men suffering from Chronic M.S.B. ( Massive Sperm Backup )
    Anyone caught spanking their monkey will be eliminated from the remaining
    43 faithful followers .

    Full story @ 11”

    — and

    2011/11/15 at 7:46 PM GD 66

    https://www.flds.org/ —- ( link to “flds condemnation, fire and brimstone manifestos” for sale @ one to ten dollars per copy )

    Please buy some of this crap ! We need money !

    Explanation… anyone?

  378. Heard Lyle moved into his daddy’s house. Guess he needed more room for all of the new concubines he’s acquired since exing people. Rumor is that Tom Cox moved into Warren’s old house. Won’t be long until they are expanding into the new digs that were built for Warren.

  379. (Briefly de-lurking)

    Wow. Merril Jessop is near my neck of the woods now. Drove by there this weekend actually on the way to get the littles photographed for Christmas. Lots of prison farmland surrounding it. Maybe Merril the hobby gardener can try his hand at some corn or whatever else they seem to grow there, if they ever let him out of the medical unit. You can see the prison farm’s pigs from the highway… my kids always get a kick out of them. Actually, if I remember correctly, the public can drive through a good portion of the Jester units. The hubs detoured (got lost ;)) through the prison roads once when we first moved to this area.

    I might be mistaken, but I believe the song “Midnight Special” was written in reference to the train that either went to or passed by the Jester prisons.

  380. Welcome Anon, please de-lurk more often.

  381. Way back when, it was mentioned that more men were ex’d. Was there ever a list of who/whom was sent away? I tried to keep up on my Kindle, while traveling, but it was difficult. Now that I’m back in the US, I’ve looked again, but didn’t see a list. Any news of which men?

  382. Ariel, I get very upset when I think about the flds, the harm they have caused so many, and the fact that they’re still doing it. But the n***** toes phrase isn’t exclusive to them. My white grandmother was born in the north in 1905, raised methodist and converted to mainstream mormonism in the 50s….she used to call brazil nuts n***** toes too. I didn’t understand the connotation of the phrase until I said it one day around some friends and they were shocked. I have not used the term since that day. I don’t know if my grandmother was racist or not–I hope not but it’s possible since she joined the lds church when racism was still accepted by them.

    Good luck to you and your fiance…may you help each other on your journey through life.

  383. The racist term for brazil nuts was used by my non mormon midwest parents. They were not racists in any sense and had friends who were black.

  384. Several of us here, a few years back, were taken by a clever impostor online claiming to help an escaped family that never existed. Although we get the feeling that we know each other here, chatting over months and years to the same people, the anonymity of the internet makes con games and deceptions quite easy. I would not donate to anyone if my only notice of who they are and what their purpose is was something I found on a chat board like this. There are several real charities with official non profit status to help the FLDS is you want to give but are concerned about it getting to the people who need it. I’m not advocating starving out the children to punish their “fathers”, I’m just suggesting that if you give money away blind you may not be giving it to the type of person you imagine you are.

  385. Chemist

    My Dad called them that too – he was non LDS, midwestern raised also.

    It was decades ago and evidently pretty much acceptable at the time. It seems that its just been the past ten years that white comedians etc are getting fired for using that term on stage.

    That said, the term is still used on inner city youtube videos and rap songs with no censorship, its even used in the title of these videos, search it. It’s in rather wide use to this day – though not so much in polite circles.

  386. Stamp: Not to insult you, but perhaps we are both showing our age here. The term old geezer can, somewhat accurately, be used to describe me.

  387. he he he

    Well, I’m no spring chicken either! One of my Grandfathers was born in 1892

  388. Brazil nuts were called that in the south too when I was a kid. Some probably still do today although only by “back woods people.” I remember when I was young in the early 60’s my Grandfather, a Southern Baptist minister, heard me say it and told me that it was not proper for us to call the nuts that anymore or to sing the little song. He was who I first heard the term from and part of Christmas was receiving, cracking and eating various nuts he would give us. He said that we all needed to clean up our language so we do not insult any child of God. I have not heard anyone since then use that term. My white Grandfather was not popular in his support of Martin Luther King. But, he was well admired in the community and I think did a lot to change people’s mind. All these memories have come flooding back after I watched the movie “The Help” and now reading this blog.

  389. I remember my mother giving me a lecture on interaction between the races when my school first started busing in the 70s. She said something like this: all humans are children of God and you should treat them with the kindness God requires for all of us, but that does not mean you have to sit down and eat at the same table with them. I dated a farmer from a small town in VA who was very kind to the black men who worked for him, providing them transportation for their kids to get to the doctor and helping them manage paying off bills and such. He was also very respectful of the few successful black business men in the area. But he went totally ballistic at the idea that his sister was dating one and quized me about whether I had had any black suitors in my past. I think this sort of divided thinking is typical of many in the rural South and they would not have thought of themselves as racists.

  390. From Paul Murphy’s Twitter account

    It’s Monday #FLDS Pres. Warren Jeffs has 2 new revelations: Merril Jessop & Warren should be freed & God will destroy North & South America.

    #FLDS Warren Jeffs sample: Evil powers combined with the power of governing power man-attack against mine authority and mine holy pure law

  391. Hello Betty and Watergirl,

    I am a retired southern baptist minister’s wife. Sadly I recall being shocked when my own grandparents used the “brazil nuts slang” My own parents did not carry on with that and so we did not hear that in our own home growing up. Living through a time when there was so much intolerance (particularly in the south), I have always rebelled at such things as racial, cultural or religious intolerance. It just doesnt line up with what we as Christians should be about. Yet there is most definitely a balance that must be sought in tolerance vs. ignoring evil and those who fall under evil’s influence. I’ve learned a lot reading this blog and have had to sadly make conclusions I would not have in the beginning. Thanks to those who have faithfully posted, even when irritations have occured.

  392. I’m from the UK and although I’ve never heard the “n…. toes” expression, I do remember singing “Eenie meenie miney mo, catch a n……. by its toe” when I was at school because I learnt it from a friend. My mum told me off and said it was a very bad word. This was the early 90’s. We ended up using “tiger” instead.

  393. Re : FLDS TEXAS

    🙂 Thanks for reposting

  394. My mom made us change to “catch a chicken by the toe” which never made any sense, but then the rhyme didn’t either.

    Like I said above my parents decided to move when a bunch of white rural southerns moved into out specific neighborhood and were teaching us those kinds of things….

    My mom (now 85) was in love with a black man in the 40s but they decided that the love they had was insufficient in face of societal hostility…..
    Not to mention that her grandparents were later shocked that she married a man with brown eyes, because that must have meant that his roots were southern Europe and God knows what kind of mix was in southern Europe…..

    I tell my kids these stories and they simply have no point of reference which I think is a really really good thing…. I tell them that I can remember when the last person known to have been born a slave died, and I show them my scrapbook of the voting rights marches in the 1960s and it just perplexes them….

  395. P.S. I never thought of Arizona as “southern” but we had cakewalks for the school fund raisers and nobody I know my age has ever even heard of a cakewalk.

  396. My mother is from Romania, my father from Tennessee. They both used the same term for Brazil nuts and that is what my sister and I heard for a number of years until the 60’s when everyone wised up to the horrible connotation that the term implied. My mother is 92, and through lapses in her mental faculties, still occasionally slips and uses the term. We just have to gently remind her that it is not appropriate and then we move on. Terminology changes daily in this quick internet world and we all have to be aware of those terms. At the same time, depending on ones culture, these terms can be used as complimentary or derogatory. I am a white social worker who interacts primarily with African American clients. I often use my clients as a sounding board and an educational tool for myself so that I understand the lay of “their” land and don’t make any (or too many!) missteps. Asking someone outright to educate me on their life and culture has served me fairly well over the years. The teens I work with do not hesitate to call me out if I don’t get it or seem oblivious. I appreciate that honesty in them and hope it continues in their lives forward. They truly are the ones that will help make the changes that we need.

    PW

    ps – just recently found this board and am grateful for the comments, links, educational resources, etc. I started reading about polygamy, FLDS, and LDS in the early 80’s and it is a subject that has always fascinated me. Once, several of the LDS youth came to my home as part of their service trip, and I “accidentally” (Freudian slip?) referred to them as LSD, instead of LDS. They didn’t get it, but both my kids fell on the ground laughing hysterically. AHH, good times!

    I hope to read more in the future and engage often!

    🙂

  397. As a former LDS, and FLDS member, I especially appreciate all the opportunities I’ve had to experience diversity since leaving. Other than adopting my two children from Colombia, and living in Hawaii, I would have to say marching in and participating in the 25th anniversary of the Martin Luther King March on Washington in 1988 was a thrilling experience. I sat on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial as inspiring “greats” such as Loretta King, Stevie Wonder, Jesse Jackson, and many others demonstrated the power of courage, love, and perseverance.

  398. For those interested in learning about the Darger’s, etc., check this out. Received this email from John Llewellyn –

    “Yes, she was a plural wife and left him with three others. On Jan 12th I will be on Doris Hansen’s tv show, What Love Is This, reviewing the book, Love Times Three, at which time I will give details of her marriage to Dennis. I will also be posing on my blog my review on that same date. Thanks for checking out my blog. If you have any question feel free to email me.” John

  399. Looks like Valerie Kelsch Darger, the third wife of Joe Darger in “Love Times Three” was the former wife of Dennis Matthews – the Dennis Matthews associated with the AUB – Virginia Hill matter. He is given the pseudonym of “Donald” in the book, and he is simply portrayed as a gambler. John Llewellyn will speak more on this topic in his appearance on “Polygamy : What Love is This ?” in January.

  400. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_(color)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_(people)
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=maroon
    http://www.maroon5.com/

    I bet this goes into moderation.

  401. Cosmo has a new post up on his blog :

    http://cosmophilosophy.blogspot.com/2011/12/opposition-to-polygamy-is-not-simply.html

  402. Well if anyone needs proof that Warren Jeffs is NOT A PROPHET just read this latest revelation.

    http://extras.sltrib.com/pdfs/jeffs_1123.pdf

    Note this one shows a YFZ address, and a new name. The Kingdom of Zion, Holy One of Israel followed by the street address in Eldorado, TX.

    Earlier Jeffs threats were mailed from “short creek’

  403. Good catch A Texan. It isn’t signed by the 2 stooges either.

  404. I am still thinking that they should put a woman in charge of cleaning up this whole stupid mess. men can’t mutli-task worth a darn. and they all must be getting paid by the hour. Grrrr

    Supposedly the latest revelation is stamped by the Attorney General. doesn’t say which one. Must be Murphy.

    Anyone wonder why Murphy continues to put out crap?

    Using the address on the statement- if you google it, it includes everything on the ranch. So… one mail box for the whole bunch and yet they say they were all seperate.

    —–

    On another note: In another area, I have seen once again that the FBI does pay attention. And they are listening. and doing. Doing good things.

    I wish I could say the same for those in Utah..
    ——
    Walton

    Does anyone here know how to get in contact with Isaac Wyler? I would still like to see him put out some type of newsletter.

  405. Warren’s grammar is getting worse with each new “revelation”. I think he is becoming more and more divorced from reality.
    .

  406. Just checked. Lindsay posted something on her blog about all this.

    Anything coming out of Murphy’s office/Utah Attorney Generals office should come with a warning sign and a shovel.

    Those guys should have spent some of that money and hired a few creative writers to have on staff.

    I don’t think the FLDS are crazy. I think Murphy and those behind him and Shurtleff are the nuts that have fallen from the trees.

    I think it is time for some new material.

    How is Wallace jeffs doing?
    Why did Willie say he went overseas? and if he really did what was he doing there?
    If there are new people moving into to the homes at the creek are they signing the lease agreements that Lindberg ordered? The original lease agreements that stated they had to obey ALL laws and list each person living in the home?
    How much of that paperwork has Shurtleffs office sifted thru?
    Is he timing it just right so that the time limiti is up and he won’t have to do anything?
    Where is Pliggy? in or out?
    How about Ruth? are they chasing her out?
    Gary Engles?
    Sam ?

    And how the heck is old Winston doing after the Canadian decision? Any arrests? Any one checking on the new marriages?

    Walton

  407. Walton / Anonymous ,

    (We dont publish private phone numbers here, ADMIN)

    as for Ruth she believes Warren was framed/wronged , & the other plyg convicts are guilty , a relative of mine who lives here at the creek asked her how she felt about everything very recently , she’s been programmed for so long , idk if she can ever be deprogrammed , have heard nothing about Wallace Jeffs lately , Thug Willy who knows ?? …… other-Anon

  408. Thank you Anon. I think Issac Wyler has shown many times over that he cares. I just bet if he and Brenda Jensen worked on a little news letter together they could reach more than that Safety Net ever did.

    I think Ruth has faced a lifetime of craziness but I don’t think Ruth is crazy. If they run everyone out of dodge so to speak, she will never get to see her children.

    I really hope that they save one spot for Ruth so when she comes to town she has one place that she could feel safe.

    Walton

  409. chemist, I’m with you on that. Some of his sentences bite their own tails.

  410. Betty

    ??? It has do with Bugs Bunny. Did I offend you?

  411. See the new source of these missives is from the

    Holy One Of Israel

    Hooi

    Sounds like Phooey

    Phooey – Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster

    “phooey, I can’t believe we chose so poorly in the rankings of the best places to live, cuz prison sux”

  412. Please continue on General Discussion #68

    —— Thanks, Admin

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2011/12/13/general-discussion-68/

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