General Discussion #66 and the “Lost Wives of Wendell”

Continued from General Discussion #65

Appeals, trials, lost wives, the saga continues…


~ by FLDS TEXAS on October 20, 2011.

493 Responses to “General Discussion #66 and the “Lost Wives of Wendell””

  1. Just for starting out: On todays date in 1903 Green Flake, the African American slave of my ancestor James Madison Flake Sr., died here in Idaho. He had helped drive BY to the canyon in 1847 and was shortly after given to the church by Flake as tithing. My Flakes/Woods originated the Mormon settlements in Snowflake, AZ; and Colonia Dublan and Colonia Juarez, both in Mexico. They were all polygamists and ended up AUB, LeBaron, and eventually FLDS. Family history books state that Green was converted in 1844, remaining faithful until his death. He had one wife.

    You don’t hear about slaves much in church history. Apparently, the slave-owners tended to migrate south to the cotton and coal missions. They didn’t get along as well with the Salt Lakers.

    Don’t get on me about topic – HISTORY MATTERS to our concerns.

  2. Third Cousin : Whatever !

  3. Okay, I’ll stop. I just don’t think you can fight what you don’t understand.

  4. Thanks for the history 3C!

    I’m sure there is lots more history that hasnt seen light of day.

    BTW here is a good book review of Sam Brower’s “Prophet’s Prey”

  5. Just when you thought you’d heard it all…

  6. Glad you liked it Stamp. Folks around here used to be really interested in the historical perspective, but things change. I can certainly deal with that.

  7. Don’t stop Third Cousin, I find your commentary interesting.

  8. Thanks, BIB. Different strokes for different folks, right?

  9. TC: I also find the history you present interesting. However, I have little interest in researching my own family history. Have done back to my great grandparents and have stopped there. Of course as a mid west convert, I do not have ancestors who crossed the plains with BY or who lived in polygamy in areas settled by the mormon pioneers. The stories of those who did are interesting to me, but not something I am really into. Maybe that makes me an atypical LDS guy, if so that is OK with me.

  10. Chemist, I believe there is no more “typical” LDS guy. Family history was completely required when I grew up (I’m 42). I didn’t even know it was a choice – we had to baptize all the ancestors. And when Grandma felt compelled to lie about it, she did, mostly to cover those still living in polygamy. But the mormon part of my history is only one part. We’ve been here since 1631. I’m fascinated. But I totally agree no one else has to be.

  11. Yes, there is probably no typical LDS since it is a very diverse group. I can proudly say that most of mine got hear from 1850 to1905. None of mine go back to the 1700s. My LDS history starts with me so no polygymous ancestors. Not sure what the current “requirement” or recommendation is: some years back there was a 5 generation program. Don’t know if that is still current.

  12. Some time ago on one of the blogs I visit, someone pointed us to a database where you could see if people with your English Surname, if not your actual ancestors, fought in a medieval battle – The Battle of Agincourt.

    This battle will see its 600th anniversary in 4 years, on Oct 25, 2015.

    Records were kept as they kept good accounting on how the King’s money was spent. If you have English surnames in your line you can search it for matches.

    I have two English surnames, one came up empty – perhaps it was a different spelling then, but one produced about 25 names, telling rank ( usually Archer or Man At Arms ) and the first names are kinda funny, almost all Richard, Thomas, John, and William.

    The story:

    The database, be sure to click on “Surname” NOT “First name” as that is the default search:

  13. A quick search found three Barlows, no Jeffs or Jessop

    William Barlow Archer [Captain’s name missing] 1415 [?] Exped France TNA E101/45/17 m4

    Nicholas Barlow Man-at-arms Beaufort, Edmund, Duke of Somerset Beaufort, Edmund, Duke of Somerset 1449 Exped France TNA E101/54/11 m2

    John Barlow Archer Beaufort, Edmund, Duke of Somerset Beaufort, Edmund, Duke of Somerset 1449 Exped France TNA E101/54/11 m3

  14. My ancestors were probably on the French side at the time. Or at home in Scotland chasing the neighbor’s sheep.

    I enjoy history and I do think it helps us understand the present. I am not so interested in genealogy in the sense of just collecting names and dates. I like more of the real stories of their lives. I had no idea there were slaves in early Utah.

  15. Wishing you luck on today’s Rapture:

  16. Dang, what time, did I miss it?

  17. The rapture is today?


    I knew I should have done laundry yesterday.

  18. I agree, 3C… history does matter. I really do enjoy ancestral stories.

    On the other hand, a problem I have with “history” is who writes it and from what perspective… (e.g., “history is written by the victor” … “there are two sides [at least] to every story,” etc.). See… the older I get, the more cynical. I think it’s today’s MSM that really frosts me.

    When I was young and impressionable, my father said our family’s lineage – our surname – derived directly from Jesus Christ. (Jesus was a polygamist, you know!)

    Meh! Don’t get me started.

  19. If or when the ” rapture ” happens good question ? Camping has a following because he & them are ” NUTJOBS ” , Nobody can predict any of that . Not even the Biblical Prophets could do that , all they could say was that it will happen & they didn’t put any dates on them , so if or when it does happen, why would God only save the elect ? Don’t we have to go through trials & tribulations ? I don’t expect God will let anyone get away with not having trials even for the ” elect ” Read your bibles folks , I have & can’t find any mention of dates for the “rapture ” .

  20. 3C – please don’t stop including your history notes. I love hearing about your ancestors and your “this date in history…” I think it is very interesting and amazing your knowledge of your family. It helps remind me of the long history of this culture. If all this blog talked about was the current harsh reality then it would be too depressing.

    other-Anon – sometimes a warm smile, and a heartfelt “glad to see you, hope you are well” can really send a strong message to them that: You are happy and comfortable with your life choices – so maybe you and the outside world really isn’t as evil as they are being told. And if they do decide to one day leave they will know there is someone out there who will support them and maybe they too could be as happy as you are.

  21. Watergirl , I can give them warm smile, how are you doing or a glad to see you, however that doesn’t seem to help,none of that seems to phase them . They’ve been locked in with the flds so long , I don’t think they will ever leave the flds anytime soon . They’re too programmed/brainwashed to leave it , unless something earth shattering occurs , & they would probably say it was part of their trials & still NOT leave , No I don’t see them in them leaving the flds any soon , maybe NOT at all . It would be really difficult to deprogram my sheeple family, if at all … >>> other-Anon

  22. Ah yes, Harold Camping is predicting the rapture again, despite the fact that Jesus is quoted as saying no one knows the day or the hour of the end of the world in the New Testament. By next week, Camping will be doing some creative “recalculating” and he will come up with another date….

  23. Wendell lost his wives ? How could such a thing happen ? I do know at least one of his wives is Rulon Jeffs daughter . To the FLDS TEXAS Admin. If you know, could you contact the pilot of plane who flies over YFZ & get them to take photos of the base being built , so we can get a new & up to date view / views of it ? It would greatly be appreciated by everyone here . >>>> other-Anon

  24. Other-Anon – I bet it does phase them to some small degree. How you are doing fine living the evil life. I am sure it is very hard to watch and know you can’t do anything to change their thinking. We are only in control of ourselves and what we allow within our own space.

    Best you can do is pray for them, think of something good to remember each by, and find other people/ways to fullfill the empty place in your heart that they once filled. Volunteering always helps me get back centered. I am so very sorry this has happened to you.

  25. Didn’t Wendell get kicked out? So they really are not his wives anymore and he is no longer a bigamist. So what happens to wife number 1 who is legally married to someone that gets kicked out. Do they get a divorce?

  26. Other anon

    “unless something earth shattering occurs , & they would probably say it was part of their trials ”


    If there is something more earth shattering than a bunch of them sent to prison, and the revelation that Warren was having orgies in the holy temple, I cant imagine it.

    I think a lot of them know and perhaps thats why they were exed, and perhaps the ones who stayed learned but – just dont care and think its cool, what Warren wants warren gets.

    It kind of makes it hard to keep a straight face on which way your faith goes, when the wind changes direction all the time though.

  27. Is it true that Warren told everyone they can’t have sex until he’s out again (and car presumably begin to have sex)? I’ve read this in a few places but it seems to weird to believe. I’m thinking that they would not last long like that. One thing I can’t picture is FLDS men with multiple wives not getting any for any length of time. Does anyone know where this rumor is coming from/how true it might be?

  28. Ha, Ha. (chuckle) One man’s “NUT JOBS” are just a little more nuttie(sp) than he!

  29. Yeah, I don’t understand how they can hear some of these sermons without laughing out loud.

  30. Betty, I can understand why : because they’re brainwashed / programmed SHEEPLE , so they do & believe everything their profit tells them to do, although were starting to see some cracks , little by little WSJ’s empire is CRUMBLING ! >>>>>> other-Anon

  31. Oh, I do believe some of the walls will be tumbling down!

    (Although, I hope not today. I would prefer nothing happen until after midnight. No need to bring Harold Camping any credit … Rapture, Schmapture.)

  32. EJAY , Rest assured the walls won’t come tumbling down today .. lol >>>> other-Anon

  33. Watergirl, no one is sure what has happened to Wendell. There has been much speculation. His wife Ilene Jeffs has been seen in and around the Crick. Not sure where the other 2 who his attorney is looking for are.

    Betty, I heard that same rumor about no sex. I’ve even been told that good priesthood men are stocking up on condoms so that they won’t have any procreations happen more than 9 months after the edict went out.

    Other-Anon, from what I’ve been told the pilot makes regular flights over the ranch and will add more pictures when there is something to add.

  34. Lest we forget…

  35. Not that its particularly relevant, but its funny and we all could use a laugh once in a while.

  36. texastwist said:
    The rapture is today?

    The last ‘end of time rapture’ Camping predicted, I was out at sea and waited for the water to boil up and swallow the ship! Welllll…STILL HERE!!! He needs to stop predicting doom during my travels! I guess next is the one to look forward to, is the Mayan end of time Dec 21, 2012…unless some other wingnut comes up with one in between.

  37. Stamp: A quick search found three Barlows, no Jeffs or Jessop.

    I found an article where the Jessop name first showed up in 1066 in the British Isles….remember my William Jessop Way photo from Liverpool, UK? However….it looks like they fought for the French! The Duke of Normandy gave them their first land grant, for their valor at the Battle of Hastings. So, maybe, fighting for the English just wasn’t their cup o’ tea! HA!


  39. Funny….come next December, a major freakout will start spreading. I wonder if WJ will predict something similar from his itty bitty cell.

  40. MC

    I thought about your pic of JESSOP way and thats why I tried that surname – actually surprised it didnt come up.

    That said, there could have been a spelling variance, as many of the names I’ve seen in that battle are spelled oddly and I have never seen them in modern surnames.

    Also, I researched the spelling variances of the one English Surname I have that didnt show up, it listed over a dozen possible variances.

    This being 600 years ago, and all…

  41. The Mayans were going to continue the calendar on the back side, but they figured someone would pick up the job by 2000…


  42. If the ” crick ” men who have kids & wsj tells them they cannot have any more kids at present , & those men being seen at neighboring towns buying condoms , what does tell you ? Despite what wsj says those men will have sex & not stop having it when they feel like it ! Looks like the Empire’s falling apart or crumbling now . This is really getting laughable .. lol >>>> other-Anon

  43. Rebecca Kimbel has just posted an additional interview with ROGER Kunz, (on her RebeccaKimbel youtube channel)- regarding Roger’s memories of his childhood in polygamy…( I erroneously called him Morris Kunz when Rebecca K posted her other interview with Roger several weeks ago.)

    It is only a bit over ten minutes long, and worth watching.

    Third Cousin, I really like your history items. So very interesting and unique. Thanks!

  44. P.S. I had seen the above-mentioned hilarious Joe Smith-angel-Emma-Fanny’s fanny video, but too long ago- it’s sooooo perfect!!

  45. Maybe the mandate of no sex till he gets out is a ploy for them to pony up enough money to pay enough lawyers for him to get out – and if HE isnt having sex no one is!

    HA HA

    And I dont care how much money they send, all the kings horses, and all the kings men,

    arent going to put pervy warren back together again!

  46. If the ” crick ” men who have kids & wsj tells them they cannot have any more kids at present , & those men being seen at neighboring towns buying condoms , what does tell you ?
    Anonymous said this on October 22, 2011 at 1:37 PM

    For one thing, it tells me that in 15 years, there will be no new pool of brides or laborers. Parents will not be overwhelmed by the enormity of the responsibility of caring for dozens of children – nor will they be subject to blackmail through fear of losing or being unable to provide for said children.

    It tells me that this decree, if true, is totally unsustainable. It will either be reversed through quiet usurpation of WSJ’s power (how hard could it be to control the information going to and from a particular texas prison cell?) – or if successful, will bring Warren’s reign to an end within a decade. Never idle the serfs. Warren’s studies were clearly incomplete. He missed a few key areas of history.

  47. Stamp, maybe WSJ’s gonna end up like Manson , he’ll keep trying to appeal & the courts will refuse his appeals & spend a lot of the sheeple’s money, we can only hope so , that’s a good bet against WSJ getting out of the pokey ! Remember he’s in for life plus 20 years , you can’t fix stupid ! >>>> other-Anon

  48. No appeals will spring Warren. Judge Barb made sure she observed the p’s and q’s well enough. I am certain of it. Don’t know how many other judges were consulted, I’m sure the legal homework was thorough.

    Jerrie, I like the “never idle the serfs.” Beautiful!

    Stamp- had you made the connection between the very words “humpty dumpty” and precisely what W ordered?..?? Yea, verily?

    Isn’t this fun?

  49. Even if, in the unlikely event, the Court of Criminal Appeals were to rule the Search Warrants invalid, that wouldn’t negate Warren’s life sentence. That information came out of the red Caddy he was riding around in. He would have little chance of prevailing on an appeal to overturn that evidence since he fired his attorneys prior to that part of the suppression hearing and he offered no argument against that evidence. Like other-Anon said, you can’t fix stupid!!!

    I don’t think that the Court of Criminal Appeals will overturn the convictions based on a faulty search warrant. The first sentence is to show that Warren is in jail for life no matter what.

    Oh yeah, also, if rule the change in the age to marry law was unconstitutional, that doesn’t help him either. The age of consent didn’t change and he’s way over the 3 year age difference requirement. The law never allowed sex with a 12 year old.

  50. Gretchen – Warren really likes the word verily. He used it frequently in court.

  51. Makes him sound all King James.

  52. Update on the no sex rumors.

    At first only a “chosen 24” were part of the new “United Order” and couldn’t touch their wives. Now the whole town is in. This means no sex for any preisthood male.

    For references on the United Order…see about seven threads back I believe….

    Its alot to type. Partly because I tend to give ALOT of details.

  53. I can tell you from living here that some sheeple women are PREGNANT, not an awful lot . As for the sheeple seen buying condoms, idk maybe ? or maybe the sheeple women are taking birth control pills , their probably buying them from neighboring towns that supply them . I wouldn’t put it past them to try that , the women might try that with husbands, idk . >>>> other-Anon

  54. maybe if they stop having sex and instead pray a lot the walls to the jail house will come tumbling down……..anything is possible in the minds of sheeple.

    I am so glad no more kids will be added to the welfare rolls.

  55. That was my first thought too Anon@8:44, no new minds to be groomed in cult behavior.

  56. Another thought occurred to me re: the no-sex decree. Maybe bringing the cult to an end is the point. Perhaps the mass-suicides at Jonestown and similar megalomanic-led cults were a reflection of the leaders desire to exercise control to the very end – and ensure their followers shared their fate. Jeffs is in no position to orchestrate a mass-suicide. That takes hands-on planning over a long period of time to pull off – especially as a great deal of doctrine would need to be adjusted.

    This is could well be Jeffs next best option for bringing his followers down with him. He is insisting that they suffer what he suffers (no sex) and, if the policy continues, the cult will die out through attrition if nothing else. It makes a certain amount of (sick) sense.

  57. Like I said before , some of the sheeple women are pregnant now, so it makes me wonder if their really going by WSJ’s edict of a no sex policy , sounds to me like no matter what happens WSJ the sheeple will keep having kids & will still keep having sex , despite what the ” PROFIT ” says ! Oh how the mighty ” humpty-dumpty ” has fallen ! >>>> other-Anon

  58. Other-Anon, the way I first heard the “no sex” policy was that it applied to only a chosen 24. It is just recently that I heard that it no applied to all. My best guess is that they will give 10 months from whenever it was applied to the entire sheeple flock for the damnations to come down.

    Giving leeway, maybe Labor Day of next year as the doomsday date. That would give a little more than 10 months.

  59. There is a new post up at The Polygamist’s Daughter Blog :

  60. “Maybe bringing the cult to an end is the point. …bringing his [WSJ] followers down with him.”

    I love it when others start coming to the same or similar conclusions about Priesthoodlumism I’ve quietly(?) tried to assert for years. Or did I long ago put some little bees in a few chapeaus?

    No, I’m not being narcissistic, just realistic and insider-logical. But don’t ever think Fundamentalist Mormon polygamy/polygyny will ever come to an end. Not gonna happen — at least not in your or my lifetime.

    Keep those thinking caps on! Stranger things are yet to happen… and hopefully a few saner ones.

    ♪♫ Fly me to the moon / And let me play among the stars… ♫♪

  61. Fundamentalist Mormon polygamy/polygyny will ever come to an end. Not gonna happen — at least not in your or my lifetime.

    EJay said this on October 24, 2011 at 2:32 PM

    I agree with that statement. However, I see no reason why forced marriages, welfare abuse and child abandonment can’t be seriously curtailed in my lifetime. If adults want to embrace this lifestyle, they will do so – but there needs to be a much more serious effort to protect children.

    It was Carolyn Jessop’s book, Escape, that first brought this whole situation to my attention. I could not believe such a community could exist in the US.

    The more I learn, the angrier I get. It’s not members or even the leaders of the FLDS who infuriate me. They test the limits of civilized society and do whatever they are able to get away with.

    It’s the absence of reasonable limits that blow my mind. They flew under the radar for decades. Local officials knew of the problem, but no one individual ever managed to muster enough authority to deal with it. Now that there has been national attention, you would expect a stronger response. Instead, you have Kody Brown and company actively campaigning for acceptance and legalization.

    I can’t get over the Utah Supreme court decision to overturn the Elissa Wall’s case. The “logic” behind the decision floors me. The idea that the jury needed to be instructed to consider whether Jeffs *intended* for Elissa Walls to be raped when he forced her to marry a 19-year-old is an indication of a court that is completely out of touch with reality. Just because FLDS lawyers argue that Jeffs assumed the groom would show pious restraint for two years doesn’t mean any thinking human being needs to give that claim the time of day.

    What planet do these people inhabit? The reason the system employs human judges is because we expect reasonable human judgement to be a part of the process.

    If authorities in Utah and Arizona would do their jobs and would stop allowing themselves to be snowed by “pious” pleas of innocent intent – in the face of clear, self-dealing, abusive behavior we might see some progress. Instead, authorities continue to discount everything they know about human nature and embrace whatever idiotic line they are thrown. i’d *love* to see the worst of those offenders exposed.

  62. “I see no reason why forced marriages, welfare abuse and child abandonment can’t be seriously curtailed in my lifetime. If adults want to embrace this lifestyle, they will do so – but there needs to be a much more serious effort to protect children.”

    Agreed… 500% !!!

  63. Fundamentalist Mormon polygamy/polygyny will ever come to an end. Not gonna happen — at least not in your or my lifetime.

    EJay said this on October 24, 2011 at 2:32 PM

    I think that you’re correct EJay.
    There are several issues that can and must be addressed in polygamous fundamentalist groups – coercive marriage, underage marriage, criminal non – support of wives and children, and welfare/food stamp/ Medicaid abuse. These findings are not unique to Mormon polygamy groups.

  64. One good thing –

    We are seeing polygamy end for some of the more egregious abusers in the FLDS posse.

    Last I heard Warren wasnt getting any new wives, he was getting less – and those that stay ARE facing a sentence of life with no sex – that is unless they “help themselves” like he was encouraging them to do in the Baptismal font at YFZ.

    Thats a rather bleak picture, but I gather there are probably 120 or so polygamist prison widows out of this YFZ situation.

    They sure arent practicing polygamy right now. And you know this has gotten the attention of the rest of the rascals.

  65. Found this – Regarding Obama Utah Fifth District Judge appointee David Ogden Nuffer – whose Senate confirmation is still pending : I would suggest that you contact your senators to register your concerns.

    Nuffer’s Victory gets Warren Jeffs a Child Bride

    By Rebecca Kimbel, Ex AUB member, for the Eureka Tribune

    Brenda Lei Fischer was given to Warren Jeffs as a 12 year old bride. She was raped inthe FLDS temple as assistants and onlookers participated in the child molesting ritual.She and several other girls were impregnated by Jeffs. How did Brenda Lei get into the hands of notorious Warren Jeffs? Brenda Lei had one chance for a normal life, but it slipped away when Attorney David Ogden Nuffer shattered the hopes of her blood relatives who fought to keep their nieces and nephews from being adopted into a polygamist family after their mother died of cancer. Attorney David Nuffer was paid by the FLDS, (representing them) and Vaughn Fischer, a polygamist who had recently claimed Brenda’s mother as his third wife, (given to him by Rulon Jeff’s). Attorney David Nuffer painted a squeaky clean fairy tale image of “Christian qualities”of polygamy. Following the Utah Supreme Court decision to allow the Fishers to adopt all six of the children, David Nuffer spoke of his success in helping polygamists adopt. He is quoted as saying, “It’s a decision that speaks of freedom”. Polygamists, with Nuffer’s help, took a giant step in being free to do as they wished without public interference, but freedom as Americans know it, was lost forever from the lives of the six adopted children. They were not allowed contact with their blood family. None of them finished high school, one was traumatically abused and became a“lost boy”, two were given as under aged brides to other polygamists, all were given away in assigned marriages and the oldest nephew received several wives as rewards for his cooperation in the court proceedings. All of these children were sentenced to a life of blind obedience and fear, serving and believing in a blood thirsty God who would destroy them for turning away from polygamy or its leaders. One of these children was Wayne Alan Thornton Fischer, who became Brenda Lei’s father. It was her father who gave Brenda Lei to Warren Jeffs, to “strengthen his own position” with God’s prophet. Who is responsible for perpetuating this enslaving ignorance? Attorney David Nuffer is an educated man, He has had many dealings and business deals with the FLDS. He has been paid well accordingly. Janet Johanson said the sum of money paid to Nuffer exceeded $600,000.00. Janet is Brenda Lei’s aunt, one who couldn’t save her. David Ogden Nuffer has now been nominated for US Federal Fifth District Court. He vowed to uphold the laws of the United States. He knew polygamy is against the law, but chose to ignore that fact. If Nuffer won’t protect our laws, how can we believe he’ll protect our rights? Is he failing at both? When people accept the idea that is right to deprive part of the population of their rights, because of gender, race or creed, freedom itself becomes fragile. It is only a matter of time until some narcissist decides other men aren’t worthy of freedom. Freedom of religion is never justification to take freedom from others. Was David Nuffer actually“snowed” by these polygamists? Was it for the money, or did he just get himself into a position where his karma ran over his dogma?

  66. Victoria Reynolds, ex AUB member and author of The Polygamist’s Daughter Blog, has written a book regarding leaving Mormon fundamentalism.

  67. I wonder if the Nuffer and those supporting him know about this girl and her fate? I’d sure like to make sure they do know. Doesn’t he have to be voted on to be confirmed?

  68. Nuffer’s nomination will require approval from the Senate.

  69. There are several issues that can and must be addressed in polygamous fundamentalist groups – coercive marriage, underage marriage, criminal non – support of wives and children, and welfare/food stamp/ Medicaid abuse. These findings are not unique to Mormon polygamy groups.
    Born in Brooklyn said this on October 24, 2011 at 5:38 PM

    I like your list better than mine, BIB. This is our generation’s problem to solve. It is not just Mormon fundamentalists. We also have to deal with polygamous immigrants. It is important to be clear among ourselves and to the world that in the US, at least, human rights are individual, not collective. You can’t come here and tell us your culture gives you the right to force your daughter to marry the man of your choice. Once you land on US soil, you have to recognize that your daughter’s status and rights are equal to your own.

    Apparently, we need to get that message out to officials in Arizona and Utah who don’t seem able to recognize abuse when they see it.

    I’d love to see someone publish a “field guide” to polygamous practices – complete with pious descriptions of, for example, “consenting brides”- alongside a more realistic description. We could offer it as an interpretive guide to officials who find themselves in encounters with the FLDS and like groups.

  70. Nuffer has been approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee and is still pending approval of the full Senate. Contact your senators to register your complaint regarding his pending appointment. Prior to his approval by the Senate Judiciary Committee, I called the Judiciary Committee in Washington and I was told by the party answering the phones that I had “legitimate concerns” regarding Judge Nuffer’s past affiliation with the FLDS.

  71. Jerrie, I am not sure if you have seen this before, but this article demonstrates the coercive nature of Islamic polygyny in NY – First wives are seldom consented about their husband’s choice of secondary wives :

    Born in Brooklyn said this on October 24, 2011 at 10:29 PM

    I had not seen that article. Thank you for the link.

    Just as with the FLDS, it seems that people are torn between intruding on cultural practices and upholding US laws and standards.

    Polygamy is so foreign to most of us that it is hard to relate to the problems it causes. The failure to come out strongly against polygamy is going to come back to bite New York just it is starting to bite the tolerant citizens of Utah and Arizona.

    The domestic violence issue is going to do its damage to next generation. I would imagine that the number of children per wage earner is much higher in these groups as well – increasing the cost of social services. The need for secrecy will cause children to be raised to distrust government, etc. etc.

    Why do we ignore the rights of individual members in a group in favor of the group’s claim of religious or cultural freedom? Why do we allow male members or other leaders to claim unlawful control over fellow citizens simply because their culture fails to recognize their value and their rights?

    We do draw lines in the sand over cultural practices like genital mutilation. Why not also insist folks obey marriage law and respect the rights of women in general?

  73. Wallace Jeffs was involved in a crash on his way home, he is in critical but stable condition.

    This was due to a traffic tie up due to a crashed semi full of bees – evidently the Hwy Patrol doesnt know how to run safety on these types of incidents.

    Did they roll up their windows and drive around?

  74. Article on the Beehive accident with photo

    “Although the hives — 460 in all — were contained by a net over the truck’s trailer, the bees escaped.

    Several people were stung, including the truck driver and his wife, a police officer, others who tried to help after the crash and a news reporter, Altenes said. The driver and his wife were taken to a hospital for minor injuries and bee stings.

    The wreck led to long traffic delays, another crash and a fire as the bees prevented crews from removing the truck. Vehicles were backed up about three miles, Washington County dispatchers said. As motorists slowed, a car rear-ended another semitrailer, which caused a fire, troopers said. The victims’ conditions were not known as of Sunday night, though a medical helicopter was sent to the scene, said UHP Corporal Todd Johnson.”

  75. I’d read about the crash, driver and wife being pulled out to be stung. The 2nd crash’s smoke may have helped some but disturbed bees do a lot of damage. Imagine most were killed, sprayed?

  76. I hope Wallace is OK. The crash photos are pretty scary.

    Those poor bees. Breaks my heart. (I’m an amateur beekeeper.)

    LE might have been reluctant to get close enough to divert traffic in time to prevent the crash.

    The symbolism is just too much to process all at once….

  77. Thanks BnB for the article. here is the link to find your US Senator and easily send them a note. I have sent a note and copy of the article above to mine.

  78. Watergirl,
    just sent emails to my two senators. Thanks for the easy links.

  79. Thanks HHG and Watergirl for contacting your senators about this very important issue !

  80. Yes, Thank you BIB. E-mails have been sent to my Senators

  81. Is Wendell’s wives missing or are they hidden away ? There are many refuges for them to be hidden ? In time LE will find soon , we can only hope ? Wendell should have plea bargained , now he’ll probably be convicted & sentenced at least as long as Merrill Jessop , praying is not going to help Wendell now ! The walls won’t come a tumbling down Wendell ! >>>>other-Anon

  82. Heard that Wendell Nielsen plea bargain a done deal.

    Three consecutive ten-year sentences probated to ten years and community service.

    He has applied to live in Jefferson County, Colorado if they accept him — I’m assuming that means if they accept the transfer of his probation.

    I’m also assuming he pled guilty to all three counts of bigamy.

  83. I asked my senators to vote no as well. It’ll be interesting to see if our writing campaign will have any effect.

  84. Regarding Wendell’s missing wives…

    Maybe Brooke Adams can gain access to where some of them are by writing another sweet-grandmothers-canning-veggies article.

    She probably lost her access when Willie was kicked.

  85. Eldorado Success reporting that Wendell pled no contest to three counts of bigamy.

    They’re reporting that the State of Colorado will have to approve the transfer of his probation.

  86. I would like to email my Sentator and Representative about Nuffer. However, I would like to include the Rebecca Kimbel article but cannot find a link to the actual article. I’m afraid that copying and pasting it might seem less credible than if I could provide the actual article.

    Anybody have it?

  87. Couple crickers, plus a lost boy or two on the washington county bookings this week.

  88. Interesting Ariel.

    I’ve got it somewhere 3C, I’ll post a link.

  89. Here it is 3C.

  90. Third cousin, this is what I sent to my senators. It has links at the end. As you can tell, I’m not the most eloquent communicator, but I felt it was more important to let my feelings be known than to be concerned about writing perfectly.

    Dear Senator _______,

    I am writing to ask you NOT to vote in favor of approving David Nuffer for District Court Judge in Utah. I believe the vote will come before the Senate sometime soon although I do not know when exactly. David Nuffer should NOT be a District Court Judge because he has proven to be pro-polygamy to the detriment of children’s civil rights (* see information below). Polygamy has been allowed to continue in Utah due to law enforcement’s and judges’ unwillingness to enforce the laws against polygamy. While the pro-polygamy stance is that polygamy should be protected under freedom of religion, this position ignores the children of polygamy’s right to be free from abuse—and polygamy has been proven over and over to be associated with abuse. The United Nations has taken a stance against polygamy due to attendant abuses. Polygamy should not be an acceptable practice in the United States where we value equality and freedom from abuse. If David Nuffer is awarded a position as a District Court Judge in Utah, I am fearful his biased, pro-polygamy stance will have a harmful effect on children’s rights. Please do NOT vote in favor approving David Nuffer for District Court Judge in Utah. Thank you.

    For more information regarding abuses in polygamy and David Nuffer’s association:

  91. Linking Nuffer to the marriage of Brenda is a stretch at best. It was not Brenda’s mother who married Vaughn, it was her grandmother. Her father, Wayne Thorton Fischer was already over the age of 18 at the time of the court case and had already decided the flds life was for him. In Wayne’s case, the court case only changed his last name legally to Fischer. Even if the court case would have been lost by Vaughn Fischer, Wayne would have stayed in the flds.

    In light of the above could someone please explain how Nuffer’s actions made a difference in the life of Wayne and ultimately his daughter–or how Nuffer is in any way responsible for what happened to Brenda.

  92. Anon @ 11:33, you don’t know that Wayne would have stayed in the FLDS if his aunts would have gotten custody of him and his siblings. Him staying in the FLDS was assured by the decision and Nuffers actions. So that makes Nuffer a direct link to Brenda being married to Warren at age 12.

  93. At the time, the people at the creek were NOT EVEN CLOSE to the extremists they are today. Nuffer (‘nough) said, imo.

  94. PT

    Yes I do know. He was best friends with my older brother–he had made the decision that the flds way was for him before the court case. His aunts would never have had custody of him because he was not a MINOR anymore. Also, what the flds was then and what it became under Warren concerning child brides is not even close.

    Nuffer’s decision made no difference in Wayne’s case; therefore how would he be responsible for the decisions Wayne made concerning Brenda?

  95. The fact that Nuffer took money from and defended FLDS and polygamy in court is enough for me to be against the guy for any judgeship.

  96. True that Wayne was over 18 by the time the adoption case was settled.

    Also true that had Brenda’s sisters been able to adopt the remaining minor children that Wayne would have had close access to a way of living outside of the FLDS if he chose to remain close with his younger siblings.

    Nuffer’s vigorous defense of the polygamous culture suggests a mindset that could cloud his judgment on the federal bench when it comes to issues coming out of the polygamous culture.

    What the Utah Supreme Court did (and what Nuffer and Snow argued) was to determine that the practice of polygamy alone should not disqualify people from adopting.

    What Nuffer and Snow did was underplay the potential risks for minor children raised in a polygamous culture. Underplayed to the extent of painting the culture in the most glowing terms possible. (They got an able assist in that from the state agency charged with protecting children and we all know how effective they’ve been in Short Creek….)

    What motivated Nuffer and Snow?

    Money appears to be an answer.

    And maybe they harbored a deep seeded belief that polygamy would one day return to the LDS church and that those who continued the practice were “preserving” the culture.

    All indications are that the FLDS was not as “extreme” as it is today, but the practice of pushing underage girls into marriage (lest they forfeit their “salvation”) has been around their culture for a long time.

    The legal system in the state of Utah has a long history of closing their eyes to those abuses.

    Arguing that “it wasn’t as bad as it is now” doesn’t justify placing children in harm’s way.

    There is also an issue of Nuffer’s membership and leadership of the Utah Judicial Conduct Commission while Walter Steed was on the bench in Hildale. Steed’s violations of the bigamy statute and judicial ethics were not unknown among the legal community in Southern Utah.

    The JCC during Nuffer’s tenure did nothing towards removing Steed from the bench for the rationale that the JCC finally requested his removal by the Utah Supreme Court in 2004/2005.

    Even then it took outside agitation to get that situation rectified.

  97. Using the rationale of “it isn’t as bad,” then what Warren Jeffs has done “isn’t as bad” as what Ervil LeBaron did.

    Ttherefore, Warren shouldn’t have been received a life sentence like LeBaron’s.


  98. The FLDS had the practice of underage marriage long before Warren Jeffs arrived on the scene, and the fact that Nuffer acted in the interest of their adoption rights makes him a MORALLY UNACCEPTABLE choice for a federal judge. According to Nuffer, people engaged in a felony (polygamy) have more rights to adopt children than blood relatives do. Vaughn Fischer was not a blood relative of those children, Janet Johansen was.

  99. What is the legal precedent? What if we remove polygamy and religion and say what would have been the most likely ruling? Let’s compare a legally married stepfather with whom the children have resided getting adoption over the biological relatives of the children’s biological mother. What if there were a couple who were cohabitating without a legal marriage, would that make a difference? What about the opinion of the biological father? Seems to me he would have to release his rights to have the children adopted or he would have to be deceased or he would have to have been declared legally incompetent as a parent (highly unlikely). He’s really the silent partner in all this. I am very curious as to what was done in reference to him.

    My guess is that Nuffer made the polygamist husband the equivalent of a legally married husband, rather than make him the equivalent of a cohabiting partner. I wonder if Nuffer would have made the same ruling if the genders had been reversed, for instance if the husband had died, and the male relatives of the husband had wanted to adopt. I’m wondering if the real prejudice here is not pro-polygamy but misogyny. Maybe he feels the kids are better off in a house with a male figure, any male figure, even one with 3 wives. Not that it matters in reference to his being a good judge, just curious.

  100. Sometimes it’s not clear, so I thought I’d state it more directly. I am not making excuses for Nuffer. I’m being curious about the law involved and what actually happened in the case and how his decision read. So I’m not arguing with anyone who wants to keep him from being a higher level judge. Totally agree.

  101. Betty said this on October 26, 2011 at 9:40 AM: What about the opinion of the biological father? Seems to me he would have to release his rights to have the children adopted or he would have to be deceased or he would have to have been declared legally incompetent as a parent (highly unlikely). He’s really the silent partner in all this. I am very curious as to what was done in reference to him.


    The biological father relinquished his rights and was in favor of the adoption by Vaughn and Sharane Fischer.

    He was the deceased mother’s (Brenda’s) step-father as well as being her husband and father to her children. Brenda was married to him when she was 17 and he was her step-father.

    She left him and left the polygamy world for a period of time until she was diagnosed with cancer. She was concerned about future financial support of her children and went to then prophet Rulon Jeffs who assigned her to Vaughn Fischer as a plural wife.

    It wasn’t Nuffer’s ruling. He wasn’t a judge at the time.

    He and his partner represented Vaughn and Sharane Fischer in the adoption.

    The district court judge ruled that the admitted practice of plural marriage by Vaughn Fischer disqualified him from adopting. That judge denied the Fischers’ petition for adoption based on a motion to dismiss filed by Brenda’s sisters.

    Nuffer and Snow appealed the dismissal to the Utah Supreme Court who reversed the district court decision and determined that the practice of plural marriage does not alone disqualify a person from adopting.

  102. Utah Supreme Court decision re: In the Matter of the Adoption of W.A.T.:

    1991 New York Times article:

    1991 Ken Driggs article:

  103. Several contemporary articles about the adoption case:

    A different article from the New York Times prior to the Utah Supreme Court decision that gives some additional background:

  104. Nuffer’s questionnaire submitted to the Senate Judiciary Committee:

    Questions for the Record and Responses at the Senate Judiciary Hearing on Nuffer’s nomination held on September 20, 2011:

  105. Correction: The Questions for the Record and Responses were submitted in writing by David O. Nuffer on September 29, after the committee hearing. That is the standard procedure.

    No witnesses regarding the Nuffer nomination other than the nominee himself were on the agenda for the committee hearing held on September 20.

  106. Additional questions about the Nuffer nomination:

    Is he the best person for the job?

    Is there not another qualified jurist in Utah who does not have the history and baggage of David O. Nuffer?

    Is this as good as it gets in the federal District of Utah?

  107. Thanks, TT, that helps.

    The idea that the biological father was also “married” to the biological mother’s biological mother should have been a clue!

  108. This is more emotion than pure logic. A better approach would probably be to dissect the negative impact of the legal precedent. – but here is the e-mail I sent to my senators – in case any of you would like to borrow from it. (I based mine on RNR’s letter).

    Dear Senator ____________

    I am writing to ask you NOT to vote in favor of approving David Nuffer for District Court Judge in Utah.

    There is a critical civil rights issue at stake.
    David Nuffer should NOT be a District Court Judge because he has supported the rights of polygamous leaders to retain control over unrelated minor children – to their severe detriment. (* please see the first-hand accounts and other details in the links below).

    Law enforcement and judges in Utah have refused to enforce the laws against polygamy. As an attorney, David Nuffer actively fought for the rights of a polygamous man to adopt the children (not his blood kin) of his late wife. David Nuffer was well compensated for his work and he won his case. The impact of that decision is best understood by examining the fates of those children (and their children). The daughter of one of the adopted sons was handed over as a child bride to Warren Jeffs at the age of 12 – and raped in front of witnesses.

    The other children were denied education, control over their choice of life partners and other basic human rights they would have enjoyed with their non-polygamous relatives. One boy was abandoned as a teenager. This is a common fate for polygamous boys in order to free up brides for favored men.

    There is a reason polygamy is illegal. David Nuffer is currently among a too-large body of Utah judges who favors the “religious freedom” of polygamous leaders over the individual human rights of innocent children born to the sect. Why should Warren Jeff’s “religious freedom” privilege him to demand 12-year-old brides from followers on threat of expulsion and disenfranchisement? For that matter, why should any man be privileged to force an adult woman to marry against her will – simply because he claims his religion tells him to do it. Women in the 10,000 strong FLDS faith are raised (groomed) from birth to believe the outside world is evil, are under-educated and face losing access to their family and the only world they know. Men, in effect, have considerable power to trade them like playing cards to enhance their own power and status. That is FLDS polygamy: Freedom for male leaders; bondage for women and less-favored men.

    This is the group David Nuffer represented.

    Utah judges could not even see their way clear to allow Warren Jeff’s one Utah conviction for accessory to rape to stand. In that case, the Jury convicted Jeffs of forcing a 14-year-old to marry her 19-year old cousin. Why? They apparently felt it necessary to consider whether Jeffs *intended* for Walls to be raped when forced to share a bed with a 19-year-old man. (Authorities had a tape of Jeffs raping his own 12-year-old bride, but the tape was not allowed as evidence in the trial, because the judge ruled it “too inflamatory.”)

    Nuffer is of the same mold.

    It is time for the rest of the country to stand up and demand justice for children, not just pedophiles hiding behind claims of religious freedom. Utah needs to realize that their magical thinking about religious piety has led directly to thousands of abused and abandoned children in their state.

    Please do NOT vote in favor approving David Nuffer for District Court Judge in Utah. He clearly does not understand that *all* US citizens -even women and children born to polygamous parents – are subject to constitutional protection. Religious freedom should not be used to protect the rights of men to abuse women and children.

    Thank you.

    For more information David Nuffer’s association with polygamous abuse please see the following:

  109. Everybody needs to remember the flds nowadays is suffering from a ” persecution complex ” , they think they are being persecuted for their religion , they believe WSJ’s been wronged & framed , this is their mindset now . I remember a time when very few sheeple thought that way ,but now feeling persecuted is in vogue amongst them , so nobody’s going to change their thinking right now . Unless something traumatic happens in each sheeples life & family , ( which usually changes most people ) , nothings going to happen to change their thinking . >>>> other-Anon

  110. Correction of something from yesterday regarding Wendell Nielsen’s plea.

    The three ten-year sentences are concurrent, not consecutive.

    If the state of Colorado accepts his residency and probation, he will have to return to Texas twice a year and he waived his right to appeal.

    According to today’s Eldorado Success, Nielsen made a statement in court that while he was aware there were underage marriages, he wasn’t aware of any sex with underage girls.

    That didn’t sit too well with Judge Walther who accepted his statement only after that part was taken out. She went so far as to tell him that the only reason she was even accepting the plea deal was out of respect for his attorney.

    The Success is also reporting that plea negotiations between the state and Merril Jessop have broken down and it looks like he will go to trial as scheduled on October 31.

    The plea negotiations with Leroy Johnson Steed are said to be ongoing.

  111. The Success also has another “What is it?” photo on their front page.

    This is a different construction project that the statue/watertower/watchtower.

    This one does involve pipe laid in trenches and it, too, is very large.

    Looks to me like it will be part of a waterworks or sewage system.

    Wouldn’t surprise me if in the future some of the FLDS members in the trucking business start purchasing tank trailers.

    Short Creek being rejected of God, I would bet that the populations of YFZ and Pringle will be increasing in the future as the infrastructure is further developed to support more population.

  112. According to today’s Eldorado Success, Nielsen made a statement in court that while he was aware there were underage marriages, he wasn’t aware of any sex with underage girls.
    That didn’t sit too well with Judge Walther who accepted his statement only after that part was taken out.

    texastwist said this on October 26, 2011 at 12:13 PM

    That right there is the heart of what drives me crazy about the Utah Judicial system! Judge Walther is acting like a responsible adult, calling the defendant on a ridiculous assertion and refusing to consider it. The reason Utah can’t hold anyone accountable for abuse is that their Supreme Court keeps making ridiculous distinctions that favor the predators over their victims. Marrying an underage girl (or forcing an underage girl into a marriage) should be considered the equivalent to having sex (or intending for sex to occur) with her.

    The impetus should be on the perpetrator to prove that marriage does not equal sex. There should be a very high bar to clear in proving that assertion – including solid evidence that the bride and groom did not live together before the girl came of age.

  113. Jerrie, even more so when the prosecutions so far have included a huge amount of evidence that the marriages DID in fact include sex, and that WSJ’s instructions were that they should get right on the job of making babies. The idea that he could live there, note that the girls were married but not note that the girls had baby bumps 6 months later is ridiculous.

  114. other-anon,

    I think WSJ’s need for control and reassurance of his power is going to touch more and more families. Unless there is a split to protect them, most of the sheeple will be personally affected eventually.

  115. The idea that he could live there, note that the girls were married but not note that the girls had baby bumps 6 months later is ridiculous.
    Betty said this on October 26, 2011 at 1:02 PM

    The idea that you can send a young girl to a man’s bedroom with the expectation that he will righteously and piously abstain from sex with her until she is of age is also ridiculous!

    Respecting an individual’s right to their own religious beliefs does not mean buying into claims that they have managed to overcome the laws of gravity or human nature. If they jump off a tall building they will die. If they force a young girl to share a bed with a healthy man – and call it marriage, she will be raped.

  116. I have always thought the brain washing must include these old guys as well. Most normal men (at least that I know) would find it repulsive to bed one that young. Hard to imagine you would be able to convince that many to be with someone so young when they have multiple other choices to satisfy their needs. I guess that is part of the reason for all those kicked out.

  117. I have always thought the brain washing must include these old guys as well. Most normal men (at least that I know) would find it repulsive to bed one that young.
    Anonymous said this on October 26, 2011 at 3:13 PM

    I do agree with that – and I think that is an important point.

    I don’t want to come across as though I think men are evil. I absolutely don’t! I have three fabulous teenage sons with good personal ethics and a genuine respect for women. The difference is that I could not see them agreeing to “marry” a 12-year-old at any age. It is the whole scenario – including the proclamation of marriage – that sets up the girls to be raped.

    The Utah justice system perpetuates the problem by taking claims like Neilsen’s seriously. That allows the FLDS to hide abuse behind a smokescreen of piety. The men, women and children involved may believe they are compelled by God to participate – but that doesn’t excuse the Justice system from failing to protect children from abuse. Getting clear on what “marriage” entails would be a nice step in the right direction!

  118. I hope the rank and file FLDS now know that indeed, those underage marriages were consumating, the bunch of them were having sex, there is no denying it.

    They can lie to the lord but they cant lie to Judge Walther.

  119. Anonymous said this on October 26, 2011 at 3:13 PM
    that was me, watergirl.

    I understand Jerrie what your point was and I agree Utah courts have been out dumbed by the FLDS. I hope in new cases everyone will be a bit wiser. I just wasn’t sure about your last sentence that most “healthy” men would bed a 12 year old even if they were married to them.

    -> Nielsen made a statement in court that while he was aware there were underage marriages, he wasn’t aware of any sex with underage girls.

    After all the trials in Texas we all now know better. But, before that most would think his statement made more sense than what reality has turned out to be. I have no facts to this but, IMHO – Utah people do tend to wear rose colored glasses.

  120. – Utah people do tend to wear rose colored glasses.

    I’dI think some wear blinders….

  121. I just wasn’t sure about your last sentence that most “healthy” men would bed a 12 year old even if they were married to them.
    Watergirl said this on October 26, 2011 at 4:36 PM

    Human rights workers who investigate the issue of child brides around the world report that communities nearly always claim that older husbands wait for their child brides to mature before having sex. They also say, based on pregnancy rates and other medical evidence, that claim is generally false.

    That is why I think it is important for judges to start with the assumption that marriage leads to sex unless there is compelling evidence otherwise (like the “bride” continuing to live with her parents).

    Evidence suggests that when men are told it is their right to have sex with their wife, they will do so – even if she is underage. It doesn’t make those men evil. The culture that permits the underage marriage in the first place is the problem. I think people know this instinctively – which is why you see the near universal claim by participants that underage marriages are not consummated.

  122. Very insightful interview with Mary Mackert posted today on rebeccakimbel youtube channel. Mary is one of the former flds who has become an author, evangelical Christian, has given many interviews regarding her life, and she also continues to live and work near the Canadian flds enclaves. She has several sisters who have become activists against polygamy, and her brother, Brian Mackert, is a minister and author.

    Mary’s father, Claude Mackert, was depicted on the cover of Life Magazine in regards to the 1953 Short Creek situation.

  123. Twist, go to and read the updated story on Wendell’s hearing and plea deal.

  124. Here’s hoping my Ohio congressmen make all their decisions based on what would be best for our state, not “how can I screw over Warren Jeffs.” If it’s the latter, we need new congressmen.

  125. I just looked at the last entry on The Hope Organization’s current events postings.. it’s about one “load” (oops, I was supposed to say “family”) at Centennial Park..dated Oct 21, When Wives Choose the Husband.” It has some real “precious moments” in it..

    Q: Ever noticed how often we hear how these gals express concern for “the needs” of the man..? (even after many childbirths..?) (Do I detect a certain type of “need” with the dame’s thought processes?) Fie on me, I say!!

    I think my “favorite” line in this article is when the one gal says she had been asking God who she should pick for her husband, and when she thought God was telling her to pick her math teacher, she thought, “Ewww!” (I was under the impression with today’s youth, and perhaps those not still just youth, that feeling or thinking “ewww” was a pretty good indicator of what one would NOT be comfortable with, or what one was just grossed -out by, etc).. yet, in just a few short years, so the gal says, we see that this type of reaction can in fact be overcome, to the point of having children with said “ewww”

    And then, wow, one of the gals, with only one baby so far, decides to chuck the scene and goes back to her parents.. I guess the “rocket science” of being a plyg just doesn’t really ever get off the ground for some… or is it just the simple math??
    Hmm, the guy “dabbles” in math in multiple time frames of his existence, does he not?? I don’t think he “got” fractions too well.

  126. Thanks, PT.

    Quite a statement.

    The one made by Judge Walther.

  127. The Eldorado Success newspaper in addition to articles on Wendell’s plea deal also had article on new structure on YFZ, a large semi-circular what is it. As well as photo of the tower, which paper speculates as a watch tower rather than a base for a statue.

    Here’s more on Wendell’s plea bargain from San Angelo paper:

  128. Wendell specifically agreed to never again hold any position of leadership in the FLDS church and that he will cooperate with law enforcement and report to law enforcement if he becomes aware of any underage, celestial marriage, any sexual activity involving underaged girls or boys or any domestic abuse or other illegal conduct of any kind.

  129. Since WSJ / Lyle has told their sheeple that Short Creek is no future place to gather the “elite / elect , & has been cursed , I wish they would pack up & migrate to their other places of refuge , which covers small areas of 6 states & a small piece of British Columbia , I wish them luck they will make it out there , I doubt they can , but who knows ? >>>> other-Anon <<<<

  130. “At the time, the people at the creek were NOT EVEN CLOSE to the extremists they are today. Nuffer (‘nough) said, imo.”

    …and that how we got to this horrible situation in the first place. Because It “wasn’t nearly as bad”

    So we’re just supposed to wait until it gets really bad to do something? EVERYONE (yes, you too former crickers) with knowledge of even a tiny bit of the bad that went on, and didn’t try to change it, is guilty.

    So quit wandering around like “oh gosh, how could it have ever gotten so bad”. Because the answer is already in the mirrior.

    Harsh post, I know. But I’m fed up of this coming from people who were knowledgable in the first place.

    *cough* LE *cough, cough*

  131. Here Here, Ariel ! It needed to be said.

  132. Go Ariel, go Ariel, go Ariel

    Come on, say it with me,

    Go Ariel, go Ariel, go Ariel!!!

  133. I’ll bet you feel better now, ariel. Glad you got that off your chest. Go, ariel.

  134. Thanks guys 🙂 And those of you who know my situation personlly, you probably know how bad I needed to say that….

  135. Wendell can find his missing wife Ilene Jeffs in the Crick.

  136. Merril Jessop trial start Monday? I’m thinking they werent going to give him probation, after all he was the one who led his own daughter to slaughter.

  137. Stamp, the pattern I’m seeing is that you get lenient sentencing only if you plead guilty. So is that likely in his case?

  138. How refreshing it would be if Merrill would cooperate and be honest and open and contrite. To hear that one of the older leaders who had placed their trust in Warren would admit they realized they had supported a fraud and just admit that they thought they were following their faith when it was all wrong – what a difference it could make for the rest.

  139. Go Ariel!

    Empowerment has two parts: One is recognizing evil when you see it. The other is recognizing your responsibility to fight it.

  140. They do seem to get a more lenient sentence if they accept a plea deal, but I think in Wendell’s case, he was charged with anything having to do with underaged stuff. There was some of that in his bad acts, not not directly in the charges. I think his health also came into play.

    Merril, on the other hand, is charged with giving his 12 year old daughter to the profit and performing the ceremony that did that. That is directly involving someone underage, so I don’t probation alone was in the cards for him.

    It is my understanding that the plea deal is off the table now for Merril.

  141. Jerrie & Ariel , A person can recognize evil & try to take responsibility for it , however unless you have relatives who can’t see the evil , all you’re doing is wasting your time reasoning with them , it would be like arguing with a brick wall , you wouldn’t get far reasoning with them & they know better . I have sheeple relatives here in Short Creek , & they won’t believe WSJ is a fraud , they think he’s been framed & wronged , it’s a case of the 3 monkeys : speak no evil, hear no evil, SEE NO EVIL ! You can’t change sheeple with that mindset , since they don’t want to be changed ! >>>>> other-Anon

  142. You can’t change sheeple with that mindset , since they don’t want to be changed ! >>>>> other-Anon
    Anonymous said this on October 28, 2011 at 11:24 AM

    I understand that, but that is not the type of “fighting” we are talking about. If Jeff’s followers recognized the problem it would cease to exist, so it does make sense to at least try that approach.

    However, I’m talking about speaking out about any and all abuses and demanding action – even when no one seems to be listening.

    “‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmond Burke

    At least that’s how the quote is given today. The original was a wordier and more 18th Centuryish: “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.”

  143. Coming up, a contemporary opera in NYC about FLDS sister wives:

    DARK SISTERS is a suspenseful, emotional, and lyrical depiction of one woman’s struggle with life and faith and the universal dilemma of whether to stay or leave.The opera opens a window into the lives of Eliza and her sister wives, members of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), a polygamous sect based in the southwestern United States. Creators Muhly and Karam have drawn inspiration from the crush of media attention surrounding two of the many raids on FLDS compounds (the 2008 raid at the Yearning for Zion Ranch in Eldorado, TX and the 1953 raid at Short Creek, AZ), as well as from the stories of the more than 80 wives of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

    World Premiere from November 9 to November 19, 2011, at the Gerald Lynch Theater at John Jay College

  144. Coming up, a contemporary opera in NYC about FLDS sister wives:
    EJay said this on October 28, 2011 at 2:26 PM

    Wow. I hope it is successful. I have relatives who are *huge* opera fans. They are cultural sophisticates who think my interest in the abuses of the FLDS is just odd (though certainly not out of character).

    An opera that exposes the abuses of the FLDs to NYC’s art patrons is one more blow against the wall. Let’s hope it becomes a battering ram.

  145. Oh, yeah, everyone. If you want them to respect anything you say, keep calling them “sheeple.” Very respectful, imo. Go (to…), ariel.

  146. Anon @ 4:25, they are sheeple if they just continue to blindly follow a man who is in prison for the rest of his life because he broke the law and encouraged others to also break the law.


    Please come and read; and maybe you can answer questions our readers have in the next few days. Our little blog has gone from 20 hits a day to 17,000- and we’re trying our best to teach the TV viewer the terrible plight of polygamy. Love to have your comments there.

  148. Female infanticide in India results in polyandry :

  149. OK, I am now thinking that the sisterwives blog is spamming us.

  150. Anon 4:25– Flds aren’t supposed to use the internet, correct? And they are taught to have nothing to do with anyone who is not flds, correct? (Unless there is money to be made from those non-flds)

    Flds regard anyone not flds as “apostates,” and maybe worse terms, don’t they? flds break whatever U.S. laws they are told to break, correct? They will even give up their children for sex at way too young an age, or turn their backs on their children, give up huge sums of money that they need to live on, they will go without food, and force their very young children to fast, they will give up ANYTHING- if their “prophet” tells them to, right? Even though they are supposed to be superior to the rest of humanity..?(that is, flds are, in their own eyes, the best-educated, the most righteous, the closest to God?)
    The Bible says that someone who does not take care of their own is “worse than an infidel.” To me, and many others, anon 4:25, that means flds are WORSE than many in this world- much worse, in fact, if they will do ANYTHING they are ordered to do, even now, ordered by a man who has condemned himself with his own hundreds of pages of documents, and that “anything” has obviously included child endangerment and abandonment in many, many cases, for a bunch of years.

    Has it occurred to you that perhaps flds is finally experiencing the consequences of what they have sown for so long? How long do you think a person, family, or group such as flds can go right on teaching that everyone else in the whole world is condemned by God, is wretched, wrong, gross, coarse, disgusting, whatever- but never begin to experience any anger or resentment that has been sown in those around them, by such cruel, mindless, and outright false teachings and attitudes?
    Terming those “sheeple” who follow mindlessly all that is dictated to them by a tyrant who needlessly breaks apart families, has sex with girls who are barely past their twelfth birthday, encourages men to break important laws of our nation,and risk prison time, even though they have many children they should be supporting…that same tyrant demands huge monthly sums from all men in the group, to help pay his massive legal bills, even though they have enormous families they should be taking care of with those funds- referring to such poor souls as sheeple is pretty mild, seems to me. It’s the description of what goes on, and it’s tragic.
    Flds adult men and women have had plenty of time to say NO MORE, they have had time to go to authorities and tell their stories, thye have had time to ask for protection in getting themselves and their youngsters out, and give enough information to make more arrests, and tell law enforcement all that goes on in the way of threats, so that adequate protection willl be developed for every single person asking for it.

    There are hundreds of people trying to provide the best they can for anyone that wants out of flds. Professionals, privately funded groups, volunteers. “Outsiders,” “apostates,” that flds teaches its children to fear and loathe… willing to help. And thank God, I hear that more are finally asking for that help, now that master -criminal warren has finally, mercifully been locked up. He was shown much patience from the courts that I think others would not have been shown.
    Nobody’s perfect in this world. flds are just people, like the rest of the world.
    Regarding the term “sheeple?” Bible tells us we are to be like sheep following Jesus Christ… but NEVER follow anyone like flds have been following for years.

  151. Very well put Gretchen.

  152. Amen to everything you said Gretchen ! Now if they would just follow Jesus Christ & not Warren/ Lyle Jeffs ! >>>>>> other- Anon


    FLDS Men suffering from Chronic M.S.B. ( Massive Sperm Backup )
    Anyone caught spanking their monkey will be eliminated from the remaining
    43 faithful followers .

    Full story @ 11

  154. Betty: I agree that sister wive’s is spamming us. It really irritates me. Perhaps flds admin will have to block them from posting here.

  155. Looks like a teenage member of the AUB polygamy group in Montana has been found guilty of molesting both girls and boys :

  156. From what I gather, there was a bunch of them negotiating at the same time, and for whatever reason, Wendell won the cupie prize, no prison.

    I dont think a similar offer was given to Merril, but likely a downgraded one from what he may get from a jury conviction.

    Its still possible that he may fold and accept a plea before the trial starts….

    We’ll see.

  157. “chronic MSB”

    ha ha ha ha

  158. Moroni Nutall, who does he think he is, Warren Jeffs?

    What a bad way to start out, makes you wonder how this got so bad for so long.

    Dont think he learned this all by himself.

  159. “Court records indicate that Nuttall’s parents were aware of their son’s behavior but took little action until Nuttall was arrested. For that reason, the adolescent psychosexual evaluation indicated Nuttall “cannot safely reside in a home environment.”

    Even after being sentenced, Nuttall is denying his involvement. The law allows defendants to withdraw their pleas for up to one year following sentencing, and Nuttall’s attorney is trying to take advantage of that right”

    Read more:

  160. chemist, it looks like a post created by software to go to many different sites. It’s also mainly concerned with upping it’s own hit rate.

  161. Imagine that, the parents were aware of their son’s behavior but took little action until Nuttall was arrested.

  162. I checked with the blog owner and she says it isn’t a software, that she created the post.

  163. OK, thanks. Once a week does not bother me. I just don’t want us having bots doing posting here.

  164. Folks, I have been to this forum time and time again, to learn, to talk. I thought you that care about the plight of the women in polygamy. I put up a polygamy only post, not about the Sister Wives, and encourage you to join in and discuss, and people are up in arms and think I am spamming?
    Administrator, please email me why you felt that was so wrong.
    Sisterwivesblog –
    I am sorry if that offended you Betsy, did you bother to read the post?
    IT WAS: Philosophy and Polygamy: Ins and Outs, with Troy Bowles

  165. I think Moroni Nuttall is a ” MORON ” , pardon the pun , lol . >>> other-Anon

  166. Poly,

    I don’t mind occasional posts about the content of your latest blogs on polygamy. I think we just don’t want anyone putting the hard rush on us.

  167. I know other-anon. But I wonder what happened to the poor little moron when he was little.

  168. My name is not Betsy.

    From what I understand, the Administrator checked with you to make sure that you were not using a bot to generate posts and when that was cleared up all was fine. So seems to me there is nothing that “was so wrong”. Nobody is “up in arms”. You have a flair for the dramatic, don’t you?

    Offended is not the right word for my reaction to your posts, much too strong a word. Mildly annoyed might be more apt. It sounded to me as if what you really want from us is help in raising your hit count. Quite a few of your recent posts have mentioned hit count. So, It sounded like self promotion to me rather than a big plus for the cause. I have looked back over your posts here in the past few months, going all the way into August and July, and I only found one where you spoke of anything except your own blog and in that one you asked for help in compiling a genealogy listing – that you intend to use on your blog. I think it’s disingenuous of you to claim that you “talk” here, as if you were having a mutual conversation on topics under discussion here. Nope. You come here to promote your own blog; let’s be honest.

    That’s fine with me as long as it’s fine with the Administrator. I trust that reasonable limits will be set. Other bloggers have done the same thing in the past and a few still do. If you want to invite folks to see your new posts, no problem.

  169. Third cousin , I don’t know what moron’s upbringing was , all I know is he was caught being a molester now ! The now is what’s important , we can speculate about his upbringing all day long , what he’s done now is what I’m focused on . >>>> other-Anon

  170. I think polygamy as practiced by mormon fundamentalists is a main reason why things have been so bad in the flds. I’m not against the flds–I’m against polygamy. I’ve been over to the sisterwives blog and I like it. Many of the posters there are very thoughtful in their posts and help to highlight why the practice of polygamy is harmful. The flds trials–especially Warren’s–were quite good in bringing to light horrible, unacceptable abuse among the flds. But the Sister Wives “reality” show is attempting to portray polygamy as acceptable when it’s not. I think it’s important to try to get the truth out and not let TLC and Sister Wives hoodwink the public. So I’m okay with polyissowrong “advertising” over here once in a while. It helps get the word out.

  171. On Moroni Nuttall, I read some comments on one of the stories on him. There were a couple of people posting that had come from the Pinesdale community. They made it clear that there were systemic abuse problems in that community as well. We have to put a stop to religously mandated polygamy in the United States.

  172. I am not offended by the occasional post from “sisterwives” especially since they do address the issue of polygmay….


  173. The trouble with trying to “hold that thought” regarding “not being against flds” but “just being against polygamy” is that the main pillar of groups like flds IS polygamy. To be born into flds and remain in it = constantly being taught that polygamy is the ticket to everything important in this life, and in the hereafter. It’s the same thing. To be flds=constant indoctrination with polygamy.
    The other basic flds pillar is total “prophet” obedience. And total obedience to the prophet very often involves following orders to take another “wife” or become the new “wife” in some already married guy’s situation. It is impossible to be flds, or get involved with defending flds in some way, or say that one is not against flds, without really and truly becoming an accessory to the polygamy. Unfortunately, I don’t really see how anyone can find a scrap of neutral territory to stand upon with this. I have often wished that was possible, so people could be in a less tangled and less upset place with their emotions when they hear about flds ways.

    For anyone who is flds to ever try even one time to make others think polygamy is not central to their doctrines and daily lives, I’d say that’s like saying Mary and the pope are not central figures in Roman Catholicism. There is the occasional flds guy who says they only have one wife, or the rare former flds that says their dad only had one wife, but there’s polygamy around ever single corner of flds living. It’s one big reason they disdain the mainstream lds and everyone else in the world. They are taught from day one that taking multiple wives is a virtue, monogamy is an inferior life and disobedience to God, etc. This is what I have gathered from looking into these kinds of groups. Polygamy is not a minor part of their practice. Which is why I don’t see how they will ever become law-abiding US citizens and still be flds.
    I remember one Texas legislator on camera speaking to Willie Jessop I think, and the legislator was saying, “Is there any way for you to practice you religion without breaking the law?” That sums it up- good question, and the correct answer is, no, they can’t do both. If their beliefs are always going to be that important to them, they should re-establish themselves in a nation that will tolerate their practices. Otherwise, the correct response of the states in the US where they attempt to establish their enclaves is to prosecute them to the fullest extent possible.
    People can try to believe flds will stop practicing underage marrriage. Trouble is that the girls are taught it’s the biggest achievement they can ever have, to get married, have tons of kids as quickly as possible, and live polygamy. They WANT the “badge of honor”- that’s one way compliance with the prophet’s directives is obtained- the things they do that are against US laws are an honor and achievement in their little world. They do not have honors and achievements for their females that can equal these things and still provide flds elite status.

  174. I don’t have a problem with the author of the “Sister Wives” blog posting here – the blog owner is interested in exposing the realities of living the polygamous lifestyle and combatting the positive image of polygamy which TLC is attempting to “sell” to us.

  175. Hi Gretchen,

    I have read your posts and think that they’re almost always, if not absolutely always, on target. I agree with you in general. Regarding what you posted above about the flds and polygamy being one and the same…somehow I don’t see it quite that way. flds is a people; polygamy is a practice. I realize that without polygamy flds would be totally different–something more along the lines of current lds. I just can’t be against a people. Kind of like I can’t say that a person is bad, just something that they did is bad. It’s the action that’s bad and has to be stopped. So I am against polygamy. Without it I don’t think the flds and/or other fundamentalist mormon groups would have the kind of control and environment needed to perpetuate the various abuses associated with the various polygamous groups.

    So yes, I do agree with you that if they can’t comply with the law, they need to go somewhere that the practice is legal. And here in the United States, we have to crack down on the practice. I don’t know how to do that now that it’s been allowed to fester and grow, but it needs to be done.

    Actually, now that I think about it, one way to cut down on their ability to continue with polygamy is to cut off their funding. If we were to change/enforce laws regarding food stamps, child labor laws, child abandonment, children’s education requirements, etc., it would definitely put a damper on their ability to breed children in abundance like they have. Any other ideas?

  176. The original deadbeat dad aka Fredrick Merril Jessop is going to trial tomorrow in Robert Lee for handing his 12 year old daughter over to Warren Jeffs and performing the sealing that gave her to him to rape.

  177. Well said, Gretchen. And rnr — you make a good point about de-funding polygamy. If we cut off the financial benefit to plural wives, I wonder how many men would still want to marry multiple wives? Or would that just cause them to marry and abandon, marry and abandon, at will? I don’t want children to suffer, but taxpayers should not be funding the polygamist lifestyle.

    Of course, ir would never have proliferated to this extent if Utah and a handful of other states had enforced the laws against polygamy.

  178. POSTED OCTOBER 30 ON YOUTUBE- JANET JOHANSON INTERVIEW with REBECCA KIMBEL on youtube channel REBECCAKIMBEL… titled “Janet Johanson, Nuffer’s Win, Nets Childbride for Jeffs”– (24.41 minutes long)…Alert US Senators to this interview?

    Janet was converted to flds in late 1970’s and got out of flds in 1986. She and several extended family members not in flds attempted to win custody of her deceased sister’s six children, but flds hired law firm of David Nuffer, who worked against them and won custody for flds member Vaughn Fischer of those six children because they had been assigned to him with their mother (Janet’s sister)(who was now dead.) Nuffer’s firm used argument that polygamists should still have right to adopt even if blood kin wanted the kids and were not flds. One of the six children who were therefore forced to remain in flds society eventually became a “lost boy,” another one fathered a girl who, by the age of twelve, became a 12 year old bride of Warren.

    So yes, David Nuffer, who is now a federal bench nominee, did indeed remain quite involved with working on behalf of flds members, in years past, to enable flds ways to prevail in a real family’s life, even though there were loving non-flds, close blood kin that very much wanted to help the six youngsters, and also rescue them from flds. This issue still should be called to the attention of all US Senators. Nuffer was paid very well for his work to keep six young people in flds, even though they had loving and interested blood kin that wanted to help them finish growing up, get good education, etc. but ultimately lost them to flds. Nuffer is waiting for US Senate confirmation. All Senators need to be asked why someone else without this kind of record is not being looked at for same federal bench position.

  179. Here is a link to a video regarding the matter of Judge David Ogden Nuffer and the adoption :

  180. Sorry for my typo’s and redundancy . I have several health aggravations.

    Yes, if there is ANY WAY AT ALL to financially make it harder for the polygamists to roll right along as if public entitlements are their fair game, it should be done. People need to know the companies run by them, and there needs to be a think tank about how to better pinpoint and cut off deliberate misuse of the welfare system by these folks. The fathers ALL need to be pursued for proper support.
    Where I live, I just heard about a case where a guy got a year and a half jail for unpaid child support. We are still in recesssion, etc, but maybe the guy didn’t do everything he was supposed to do to prove he was trying to keep his end up. I think the situation is quite different with what the polygamists are doing.
    It sounds like there are plenty of contracts being won by them yet the funds must be going for developing their enclaves per Warren’s directions, and paying his legal bills. Yes, there is the danger of innocent children and youth suffering if public funds to them get crimped. However, the same young suffer having to live in that society, their futures are warped, they are encouraged every day to disregard US laws. People want to help the innocent victims of this mess. Finances and incarceration are usually the most effective way to deal with such stubborn situations. flds has been given plenty of time to mend their ways.
    It’s tough and tricky whenever we have to think of the innocents. Although it is difficult, the problems need to remain on the table regarding these groups. Too many kids will continue to be affected into the future by the illegal practices. If they were not also being taught to become criminals it might not be as urgent.

  181. The original deadbeat dad aka Fredrick Merril Jessop is going to trial tomorrow in Robert Lee for handing his 12 year old daughter over to Warren Jeffs and performing the sealing that gave her to him to rape.

    Proud Texan said this on October 30, 2011 at 9:39 PM

    Yes PT he’s going on trial today, here’s more from the San Angelo paper:

    Should be an open & shut case unless a plea bargain occurs. IMO due to nature of charges, there won’t be any lengthy prison sentences, highly likely due to age of defendant, probation, or jail time less than 5 years.

    IMO he deserves more time in the big house.

  182. Don’t know if anyone’s seen this, appears the UEP case is back in the news as the appeals case before the appeals court is under way. Should be interesting to see how the appeals court rules as they are not under influence of local politics of Utah & Arizona.
    As usual that FLDS lawyer Parker is out in public putting his spin on the story.

  183. The Nuttal kid, and that molesting bunch up there in Pinesdale, are AUB, yeah the same clutch as fame whore Kody Brown.

    This story puts a little bruise on his story that his Church doesnt imbibe in such practices. Its exactly why it should stay illegal –

    The parents ought to be in prison too.

    IRT Merril Jessop, there is a case where we will likely see a “Parent” go to prison.

    5 yrs, ten, I dont know yet what he is facing, but I’m confident we will see him cuffed and stuffed.

    What a wonderful ending for that nutjob.

  184. Oh, see at the gosanangelo site he is facing two to ten years.

    I tend to think it will be toward the upper end of the sentence, we will see.

  185. Here is a link to the latest interview of Troy Bowles on Polygamy : What Love is This ?

  186. I have urged my Idaho Senators to vote against confirming Judge Nuffer.

  187. I’m thinking 2 to 10 years would be close to a life sentence for him because of his age.

  188. Prison isnt the best place to spend your golden years, but it looks like lots of FLDS are cruising through life that way.

  189. Thank you Third Cousin !

  190. I figure they’re picking a jury for Merril as we speak. I really hope he gets the maximum.

  191. I got a letter back from Cornyn thanking me for my interest in the Nuffer appointment and saying that he will take my points into consideration.

  192. First thing this morning Merril’s attorney tried to exclude Warren’s name from being mentioned in the trial. Didn’t fly since he is who the 12 year old was married to.

  193. First thing this morning Merril’s attorney tried to exclude Warren’s name from being mentioned in the trial. Didn’t fly since he is who the 12 year old was married to.

    Proud Texan said this on October 31, 2011 at 11:37 AM

    Thanks for the update PT. Here’s what a Houston TV station has to say:

    As to the defense attorney, he’s going to throw everything at the wall to see what sticks, even silly requests like not mentioning that felonious profit Warren Jeffs.

  194. At the Motion to Quash the Indictment hearing he already tried to say that the girl might have lied to Merril about her age.

  195. Its his own daughter… BTW how does it work when they lie and say they are only 9?

    Does that save them from the pedo masters?

  196. Lots of pics of Merril – as many as I’ve ever seen – here – check the pics on the RH side that scroll down

  197. What?

    No oxygen for Merril?

    So much for a sickoldmantoooldtoincarcerate play.

    Maybe they can lay the blame on the girl’s mother.

    May she rest in peace.

  198. Latest on Merril – anybody know if a jury’s been sat?

  199. It is my understanding that a jury has been seated in Robert Lee. Let the fun commence.

  200. Standard Times says that Merril was chatting up some FLDS types outside the trial today.


    “Leifeste also faced the potential jurors during general questioning with his eyes often closed and his head resting to the side”

    does anyone here remember when Merril testified (or not, invoking the 5th multiple times, before a house committe in Texas?)

    He did it with HIS EYES SHUT, hmmmm, just like his attorney questioned the jury today…..

  202. Merril testified before a house committee?

    I think in this story that Matt meant that was how Merril sat, not the attorney.

  203. yes, Merril sat before some committee and had his eyes closed and chewed gum when he wasn’t busy invoking the 5th or looking like he flat out went to sleep. it’s getting late, but i will look for the link.

  204. “Leifeste also faced the potential jurors during general questioning with his eyes often closed and his head resting to the side”

    from the article

  205. I thought dead beat dad did the narcolepsy act when he was deposed by Natalie Malonis?

    I answer myself and Rod Parker nothing and sue myself anonymously.

  206. The above was me but it was anonymous.

    PT – Twist and Texan thanks for keeping is up to date on the trial.

  207. Thursday April 16, 2009 in front of the Human Services Committee, i think was when the questioning started. i could be completely wrong. there is video out there somewhere for the whole thing. i don’t have a script for this site, but will say Hi to Randy anyway, lol, and tell everyone else to subscribe today!

  208. thought dead beat dad did the narcolepsy act when he was deposed by Natalie Malonis?

    I answer myself and Rod Parker nothing and sue myself anonymously.

    Anonymous said this on October 31, 2011 at 11:49 PM



    i love the answer nothing and sue myself line

    i will see if i can locate the video of merril the gum chewing, sleeping man

  209. It was Merril who had his eyes closed today in the courtroom.

    waller_matthew Matthew Waller
    Frmr #FLDS leader Jessop has been facing the jury panel with eyes closed, head tilted to one side as potential jurors receive instructions
    11 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

    There are photos out there that have Merril with eyes closed in SLC during a hearing of the Utah Supreme Court.

    The photos were Trent Head’s, IIRC.

  210. Trent Nelson

    Not Trent Head.

    Not my day.

  211. thanks texas twist

    and i’m wrong

    it was his hearing with Natalie that was when he had his eyes closed and took the 5th something like 250 times. i’m still looking for the video, because it was so strange.

  212. Found the shot of Merril I was thinking of. It doesn’t show his eyes closed, but his head is definitely nodded. (Scroll down to Utah Supreme Court – Warren Jeffs posted by Trent on 11-3-2009.)

    There may be a photo on this blog of EyesShutTight Merril during a deposition.

  213. What you’re looking for, juliekan, may be posted on this blog.

    That’s going by my not-so-good-today memory.


  215. oh my gosh, thanks so much texastwist!! i have been looking everywhere for that!!

  216. Hopefully I’ll get to see him sleep some if I actually get to make it to the trial. Being in Robert Lee has put a damper on my trial attendance.

  217. It is my understanding that a jury has been seated in Robert Lee. Let the fun commence.

    Proud Texan said this on October 31, 2011 at 8:39 PM

    Yes PT that’s what the San Angelo newspaper is reporting, a jury of 8 woman and 2 men were seated. Funny that Merril the wife beater will be tried by a jury with a majority of women!

  218. Posting contact information about private individuals is not allowed on this blog. Such posts will be trashed and multiple attempts will get you permanently blocked.

  219. On FB a few minutes ago….
    “Leroy Johnson Steed plead guilty to Sexual Assault of a Child and Bigamy. Sentenced to 7 years in prison.
    FMI see

  220. I fail to see the benefit for the state in that deal.


  222. Could he have quietly traded valuable info in return for a lighter sentence?

  223. I would have liked to see him get something for the tampering with evidence charge.

  224. Rebecca Kimbel to be interviewed :
    Nov. 15th – Rebecca Kimbel, Survivor – Today’s modern slavery. “FEAR… the glue that holds Polygamy together.”
    RADIO BROADCAST every Tuesday, 1:30 to 2pm (PT)
    Show host’ Stephanie Mann of Safe Kids Now

  225. mc1199, that’s always possible and something that is rarely known when it is the case.

    I can’t see any fundamental weaknesses in the sexual assault case against him.

    Will we be seeing more indictments arising out of the YFZ evidence?

    Is the state trying to send a message that playing ball is better than 33 years?

    Or 75.

    Or life.

    Steed’s victim was 14 at marriage, 16 at conception.

    And one of Merril Jessop’s granddaughters.

  226. Polygamy may make a comeback in Libya :

  227. Canadian polygamist commits honor killing of first wife and her children :

  228. Would have been better, imo, if LeRoy had received 10-15 years. However another flds male will be in prison for several years. Hope the rest of them are getting the message. Underage marriage will get you prison time.

  229. Who are Leroy Johnson Steed’s wives?

  230. Older Anon, I know that his legal wife is Kathleen Jessop Steed.

  231. BIB – what a horrific crime in Canada.


  233. Chemist,
    Texas jail for underage marriage , yes. Utah, no.
    Let’s remember that Texas only prosecuted the offenses that took place in Texas, nothing that occurred anywhere else within the FLDS.

  234. C-M: you are correct, unfortunately Utah has not picked up the ball on prosecuting for underage marriage. Perhaps a new Utah AG will do something.

  235. Utah got a conviction against Warren and then the SCOU dismissed it.

    They are taking steps backwards.

  236. I’d be really interested in knowing more about the backgrounds of the Utah Supreme Court, Judge Dee Benson, Rod Parker – and others who seem to dedicate so much of their lives to protecting the rights of FLDS leaders to abuse their followers.

    They apparently truly believe that protecting the rights, freedom and power of religious leaders is more important than ensuring victims of abuse receive justice or even making sure abuse stops.

    Why? Do they come from polygamous backgrounds? Is there some sort of connection to LDS power players that do not want to see their own power eroded as a result of attempts to reign in the FLDS?

    Dee Benson, if I have my facts right, is the judge who sealed WSJ’s rape tape in Utah in order to protect his “religious freedom”. He also has inserted himself into the UEP trust case to try to force the state to give the trust back to FLDS leaders. Abuse of power, child rape, turning families out of their homes in the middle of the night if they displease the prophet: None of that apparently rates with him.

    He was Utah Senator Orrin Hatch’s chief of staff for several years and Orrin Hatch nominated him for both US district judge and the federal bench.

    He had been an attorney at Snow, Christensen & Martineau. What is their connection to all this? I read in another comment elsewhere that Martineau was born in the same polygamous colony in Mexico from which Mitt Romney’s father was born.

    I have a hard time believing they are actually pro child-rape. It seems more likely that they are so committed to preserving religious privileges for some other purpose that there is not much they would not sacrifice to that cause.

    It is much harder to fight what you do not understand – and I really do not understand these guys. Anyone have any insights?

  237. Texastwist, thanks. I forgot about that list.

  238. here is the response I got back from my Senator on David Nuffer.

    Thanks very much for getting in touch with me and letting me know what’s on your mind regarding judicial nominations.

    President Obama won the election and is entitled to nominate individuals to serve on the federal bench, subject to the advice and consent of the Senate. However, I was deeply offended by how senators on the other side of the aisle changed the rules on President George W. Bush’s Supreme Court nominees. I said at the time that as long as the president nominated well-qualified people, who’d be impartial, they should have an up-or-down vote, and that I would vote to confirm them. That’s still my view. Of course, in truly extraordinary cases senators reserve the prerogative – as do I – to vote “no” or even to vote to deny an up-or-down vote.

    If the president picks a judicial nominee from the fringe, or if he picks someone who will apply his or her feelings instead of applying the law, then that might be an extraordinary case when I can’t vote for that nominee. The question is not whether a judicial nominee is politically “on my side,” but whether he or she is well-qualified and has a record of being impartial.

    Under the longstanding practice of senatorial courtesy, the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee consults the senators representing the home state of each person nominated by the President to serve as a federal judge to determine whether the nominee has the consent of both home-state senators. I will resist any attempts to weaken this bipartisan tradition of senatorial courtesy so that my colleagues and I can carefully consider the President’s judicial nominees and help ensure that Tennessee and the nation are well-served by these appointments.

    Our judiciary profoundly affects your rights as an American citizen, and I’ll be sure to consider your comments as judicial nominees are discussed and debated in Washington and in Tennessee.

  239. You’re welcome, aoa.

    Some of his wives were reassigned to him from Allen Woodruff Steed, LeRoy Steed Jeffs and Joseph Steed.

    To my knowledge, the only one he married underage was the victim in his sexual assault case. She had a child born in October 2007 after that list was compiled. Information about her child came from records made public via the CPS cases.

    One of his wives was married underage to LeRoy Steed Jeffs at the age of 17. She was reassigned to Joseph Steed after Warren removed LeRoy’s wives and children from him in 2005. She was subsequently reassigned to Leroy Johnson Steed in 2006 after Warren exed Joseph Steed.

    Three husbands in less than three years. Three husbands before she saw her 21st birthday.

    Her child was born to Leroy Johnson Steed after she was of the age to consent.

  240. “senatorial courtesy”

    And there you have it.

  241. Matthew Waller update from Robert Lee:

    His last tweet says they are on lunch break until 1:45.

  242. Lots of interesting items in this week’s Eldorado Success to digest.

    Front page top of the fold perp walk photo of Steed as he was returned to Schleicher County from Robert Lee on his way to begin his prison sentence.

    Some information about Steed’s charges and plea that I’m looking at….

    According to the Success, they have obtained a court document that contains some details of what Merril was being offered in a plea arrangement that he turned down.

    He was offered ten years or less imprisonment for a guilty or no contest plea and release on an appeal bond while he appealed elements of his case.

    And of course, a nicely detailed account of Merril’s trial up to press time with a follow-up article coming in next week’s issue.

    And one back page article that lends itself for some speculation.

    The Schleicher County grand jury met on the 16th of October and handed down 11 felony indictments.

    Information about four of those indictments was released and they were: two charges of felony DWI, Burglary of a Habitation, and Delivery of a Dangerous Substance. None of those four persons were FLDS members.

    Can’t help but wonder about the seven remaining indictments. It’s entirely possible they were not for any FLDS members, but it’s also possible that one or more could be. Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

    Unrelated to the FLDS, I’m envious as all get out that Schleicher County can manage to charge people for Burglary of a Habitation while another rural Texas county has been slacking on that particular criminal activity.

  243. Latest tweet from Matthew Waller is that the prosecution no longer expects to be able to rest their case today.

    Apparently Leifeste has made a number of objections regarding testimony from Jack Sampson, the state’s family law expert witness.

  244. In spite of what sounds like his apparently relaxed and unconcerned demeanor, I hope Merrill gets hit hard by the jury. He’s way overdue for some nice long cell time. He prob thinks he’s getting off easy due to age and health. Let’s hope they cook his goose good somehow anyway. I don’t want to say more, on the chance someone might be cruising the internet right now that isn’t supposed to. I saw something today that freshly rattled my cage about these jokers.

  245. No testimony from Carolyn?

  246. Nope, Leifeste was too busy being a jack in the box for much testimony to get in.

  247. Rae was being a big enough idiot to have the Jury lose respect for him?

    HA HA

    I see why he isnt a judge anymore.

  248. He is pushing The standard set by Brandon Hudson and Stephanie Goodman for attorneys being idiots.

  249. waller_matthew Matthew Waller
    ex #FLDS bishop stays out of courtroom to not witness presentation of evidence sacred to him
    32 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply



    And that is how the jurors will see it regardless of them trying to dress it in religious piety.

    Matthew says they are on lunch break until one.

    Leifeste busy preparing more objections to the admission of church records.

  250. Merril doesn’t want to listen to what Warren said about him when Merril gave his 12 year old daughter to the profit for marriage.

  251. Even better.

    Merril “isn’t allowed” to know things about Warren.


    “Mr. Jessop is unable to hear or see those” records of leader Warren Jeffs, Rae Leifeste, Jessop’s San Angelo defense attorney, said.

  252. He doesn’t realize that by saying the rape of his 12 year old daughter is “sacred” he is declaring himself guilty. He is saying she is property and he led her to her sale and performed the transaction. It’s not up to him what her new owner did with her.

  253. The last anonymous was me, Betty. New computer. Don’t have my profile set up yet.

  254. More courtroom buffooonery. This “I am not worthy to hear” BS is just, well…BS!

  255. He isnt even FLDS anymore.

    But I guess old habits die hard, pledge allegiance to da prophet even if he sends you down the river!

  256. or he simply doesn’t want to know what he really did

  257. Word on some streets is that he is back in the FLDS, but not allowed to have sex with any of his wives.

    A eunuch.

  258. Uh, Merrill’s older “little girl” helped with the rape of little Merrianne, wrote about UnkieWeirdo’s every single coma-and-drool-producing antic, utterance, and “move”…but Daddy M ain’t worthy to hear ’bout it., even though he was Da Cheese at “ranch.” Anybody out there got anything new that’s even more effective against TOTALLY UNDERWHELMED SYNDROME?? (Ok, I’ll call it TUS. )

    Like I was sayin, yesterdayI just heard something that rattled my cage freshly about these ” po’ folk..” I won’t specify til they finish with Merrill. -It might be something they are using with prosecution.
    It would not be too much of a stretch to state that I think they are the sorriest, nuttiest bunch this country has ever produced. (Sorry, country.. I definitely ain’t tryin’ to insult the good old USA.)

    These “people” are REALLY TOO MUCH.. (RTM syndrome)

    Y’all don’t forget now- insert “illegal” in place of “sacred” when flds speak or write… SSSIIIGGGHHHHH

  259. Y’all don’t forget now- insert “illegal” in place of “sacred” when flds speak or write… SSSIIIGGGHHHHH

    gretchen said this on November 3, 2011 at 3:16 PM

    “Evil” generally works as well.

  260. posted on twitter:

    lwhitehurst Lindsay Whitehurst
    @waller_matthew saw Willie Jessop at fmr #FLDS bishop’s trial 2day. Asked about bench warrant out on him, Willie said he wasn’t worried.
    21 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

  261. He isn’t worried because he paid the $15,000 that was required to make the bench warrant go away.

    As for Merril and the “no sex”, that is forbidden for any and all of the faithful now. None of them can have sex until the profit can.

  262. Interesting. The Harmston Group in Manti, Utah appears to be imploding from within. This is some very familiar material in terms of FLDS.

  263. Why do all the articles about this trial fail to mention that the 12 year old girl was his own daughter? It seems like an important detail.

  264. I think maybe articles about Merrill’s trial are not re-mentioning certain things while the trial is on. I can’t imagine that the jurors themselves won’t be told everything pertinent by prosecution. Media might have been told to rein in certain things that they remind public of during this trial. It’s so inflammatory, terribly so.

    I’ve always thought that if the newspapers had been able to print more of the truth of flds ways when it first came to light that they were in Texas, the April 2008 “raid” would have taken place much sooner, at least one would hope. Hundreds of local people down there should have been screaming for intervention much sooner. The truth of the sordidness and cruelty just wasn’t told, people that kept on trying to warn via news blogs and so forth weren’t believed, and were often ridiculed. I know I sometimes was.

    Then there’s the Utah judge who ordered evidence sealed five years ago that Warren had been with twelve year olds, saying it was too inflammatory… just think, if that had been divulged to Texas authorities in 2006, maybe the ranch building fever could have been stopped right then and there. It’s just too sad how all this has gone right along. Flds are so twisted they just can’t see what they are doing, even many of the ones among them that don’t seem harmful. Their faith foundation is deeply flawed and they have been made more and more ingrained with each passing year.They have been allowed to use and abuse the media and the religious freedom cry for so long. They have such a know-how with money making and laundering, and breed so fast. The evil they do under the mantle of “righteousness” is just another sign of the mixed-up times in which we are living- just one more way for people who hate all things religious to point and say, “all faith is bad.”
    I keep thinking flds will be among those to whom the LORD says, “I never knew you” some day. The ones who, at the final judgment, say, “Lord, didn’t we do this and that in your name?” It won’t be just to people like Warren. It will be to the many who kept faith in people like Warren, too. In our world today, there are many mixed-up, led-astray people. Unfortunately, flds is just one batch of many in that category.

    This week, I came across things I want to talk about on this blog, but I am not doing it because of this trial right now. All I feel ok saying is I sure hope prosecution has all the goods to do some real and lasting damage to Merrill, and to flds as an entity, with this particular trial, as has finally been done with Warren. I am sorry, I don’t think I should be more specific.
    Flds needs to be shut down, badly. I wish that every time I think of the things I have read– I wish that a mass incarceration and permanent seizure of their assets could be done in very short order. They are crazy and sick.

    It’s really a national disgrace.. I have to take breaks from it because it is so tiring. Imo, the vast majority of flds need to be jailed in short order, for multiple years, in every single case that I am aware of. It’s that simple. The whole thing is an outrage, an in-your-face crime family, with things going on that will keep the public fooled, and lucrative contracts being won for years more. It’s too sad for words.
    I have said it before, and I say it again- the flds kids are so tweaked by such a young age that I think keeping them in foster care was too much of a nightmare in 2008. I think it was going to be a total impossibility to find enough people emotionally able to be around the kids for long. To me they seem very well conditioned at least by kindergarten age to believe in their own superiority and lifestyle very strongly. They are part of a separate universe and I don’t know how they will ever be integrated in any significant numbers into anything more “mainstream” or balanced. Our nation is having so many problems in general that I don’t think kids born into flds will ever be able to figure out how else to live outside of flds. The vast majority of families opting to exit on their own for good is the only real hope to see a demise of the madness, because the religious madness is coupled with such a strong work ethic, business savvy, and incredible belief in complex and frequent deception to benefit the organzation. I wish I was wrong. Every individual or family that gets out is a real victory. Getting thrown out is a great blessing, but they can’t even recognize that it is so many times.

  265. It was said in opening statements and I’m sure it was brought up in Carolyn’s testimony and Danny Crawford’s.

  266. Here’s a really interesting opinion piece from the SL Trib, IMO well written which asks, would it have made any difference in the trial of that felonious profit Warren Jeffs if he had kept his lawyers. The article asks “should have been, a mental competency test for Jeffs.” And seems to speculate that this is reason for the many Jeffs lawyers being fired.

  267. Interesting stuff on the TLC, TC.

    Thanks for bringing it forward.

  268. Now that the jury’s sat, the news articles are actually ID’ing Merril’s daughter as the same one who WSJ was convicted of raping. I’ll post links when I can. There were at least two separate sources.

  269. Another interesting link on Harmston group and commentary by that author of the book who tried to interview insiders:

  270. I hear ya Grethen, hang in there.

  271. Forgot to say, credibility on the British author attempting interviews is completely unknown to me.

  272. Gretchen, your post comes off (imo) slightly rabid, with another dash of ‘crypticism’ tossed in—not that I don’t understand your concerns; I have them too—but this goes over the top:

    “…I don’t think kids born into flds will ever be able to figure out how else to live outside of flds.”

    Putting it as kindly as I can, on this matter, methinks you know not of what you speak.

    [returning to lurk mode]

  273. E Texas, You surely have more experience and credibility in this matter than Gretchen

  274. If Warren would have had an attorney, it would have made the trial longer and drawn it out, but in the end the evidence would have gotten in as it has in previous trials. The Judge has kept stuff out before and would have kept some of it out in Warren’s trial, but enough will be get in to prove that he did what he what he was accused of doing.

  275. Hi E. Texas,
    glad to “see” you….. I have been getting gloomy myself and beginning to think very morose thoughts about the possibility of any single positive outcome, so thanks for and glad for the gentle push back…. Seriously, I really mean it

  276. IMHO FLDS can make a break from the religion, but I think there is that “Busting the sound barrier” moment, and some people arent strong enough to try.

    That said its a phenom with all heavily indoctrinating religions, not just FLDS.

    In this particular religion, there have been some rather spectacular breaks, I would call Ross Chatwin, Elissa Wall, Becky Musser, and Carolyn J as some I admire for really busting loose with a bang.

    Others have had less spectacular breaks but there was undoubtedly personal angst, trials and tribulations to overcome.

    I pity those that are on the outside trying to get back in, like Merril Jessop. What a fail. He needs to grow a spine.

  277. Haven’t you heard, ET? gretchen wants everyone to believe the same way s/he or it believes so that each can be seen as worthy to exist. Sorry. We’re not qualified! To hell with all of us 😉 🙂

  278. Save me a seat on the bus, Anon 9:48.


  279. Just for the record, there are HUNDREDS of untold successes at “busting the sound barrier”—they simply happen quietly, underground. Not the least is my own “spectacular breakaway” which I’ve never exploited, though it occurred long before all the others mentioned and there were others even before mine. Most of us choose (for various hard-core reasons) to make our escapes outside public and media scrutiny.

    That said, I have a huge respect and appreciation for those who could and have made their experiences public. Any benefits received are deserved. And the rest of the world benefits with greater understanding and knowledge which often inspires activism against the abuses. Some of the quiet activism you will never know… it just IS… and it’s just as commendable.

  280. Can we please stop with the angst I see , Gretchen , can state her opinion if she wants to , none of us are perfekt ,oops I meant perfect / LOL ,let them who is without sin , cast the first stone , a saying of Jesus . I figured a little levity would be better than angst at this point >>>> other-Anon

  281. Absolutely no argument against expressing opinions. Correcting misunderstandings and expressing differing opinions does not equal angst.

    A little levity tossed into the gloom is certainly welcome. Thanks anon.

  282. The way I see it, Gretchen was directing her post more to the children on the ranch. It HAS to be tougher for them, living completely isolated, no trips to Wally World or Costco like the Short creeker kids enjoy.

    I feel for this particular batch of youngsters and hope they find light at the end of the tunnel.

  283. David O. Nuffer’s nomination to the judgeship of the 5th District Court is up on the Senate Calendar for Monday, November 7, 2011. Call your senators to put a hold on this nomination, please.

  284. Shouldn’t that go both ways?

  285. We should see ourselves as being on the same coin, just being on different sides. The face of the coin never sees the back, and cannot understand it’s perspective.. likewise the reverse. This forum gives both sides of the coin the opportunity to speak from personal perspectives… and both should be respected, because in actuality, we need both; those who have lived this life, and those who are here to support justice for those who have been victimized by the FLDS. Thank you for working together to communicate these very important issues.

  286. As I said before , nobody’s ( perfekt ) perfect , oops / lol , we need the levity occasionally to stay away from the gloom ……. >>>> other-Anon

  287. Bank intertwined with Jeremy Johnson, in St George Ut was closed by the FDIC and all the managers got fired.

  288. Not meaning to throw cold water on good levity though…

  289. The Defense if Deadbeat Dad’s case is suppose to be bringing 2 or 3 witnesses on Monday. Let’s hear everyone’s speculation/hopes for who it will be.

    My speculation is Jim Jessop his son who has been sitting outside the courthouse and Mike Biggerstaff.

    My hope would be for it to be Naomi, Betty and Krazy Kathleen.

  290. Ben Winslow special Monday on child brides :,0,1260190.story

  291. They couldn’t possibly jeopardize Naomi, could they? My biggest fantasy: Naomi showing up to testify and being arrested on site on account of a secret grand jury indictment on two counts of accomplice to rape. Oh, wouldn’t it be fabulous?

  292. I don’t understand why she was released when they arrested Warren. It’s not exactly normal for those with someone on the FBI top 10 to walk scott free within a few hours.

  293. I wish I could think something would be done in Utah, but it won’t.

  294. I think what is needed is we pray these sheeple disband by scattering to other places of refuge , & hope they split apart & realize they have a sick in the mind leader & split off WSJ’s group ! He said Short Crick was cursed by shaking the dust from his shoes , said it was not the gathering place for the sheeple & said there’s no future for the sheeple in Short Creek , So hope & pray they will migrate from here to other places of refuge & disband altogether . >>>> other-Anon

  295. Does anyone know who was the real “Mother Kay” in Susannah Barlow’s book? Also, the maiden name of her mother, Carol? Thanks

  296. Other Anon,

    I do hope the fanatics leave creek to the more reasonable residents. I do understand that some of the exed are forming new and less restrictive alliances. I wonder if any are gravitating toward the Work of Jesus Christ, or whether that historic split runs too deep. I remain hopeful for your family members, whoever they are. Hang in there.

  297. Even if they would have arrested Naomi, she would have gotten out on bail. She would have had to have been indicted and at that point they had who they wanted.

  298. My hope is that Lyle leaves the crick for parts unknown and doesn’t come back.

  299. She could have been indicted for aiding a fugitive.

  300. And imo, she should have been along; with many others who transported and hid warren when he was a fugitive. Many of those people are named in warren’s dictations which are now in the public domain.

  301. Yup. And the driver of the Escalade, and the owner of the Escalade……just for starters.

  302. I agree Chemist and Anon@6:56, I am the Anon @ 11:07pm and what I meant by that is they wouldn’t have kept her in jail awaiting arraignment, they would have allowed bail and I doubt she would have turned herself in once that happened.

    You are right that there are a bunch of people who could be arrested and tried for aiding and abedding Warren on the run, but the Feds don’t want to spend that kind of money on those trials. To their view these people are very low priority.

  303. I suspect Merril would best be served by having Warren Jeffs as his star witness.

    We know where to find him, he is always handy at a moments notice,

    ( regardless of his religious duties that sometimes keep him occupied )

    and by having Warren on the stand, Merril would have the perfect alibi:


  304. Stamp, I needed a good laugh on a snowy Sunday morning.

  305. good one stamp, made me chuckle on a sunny, breezy morning. Temp in mid 50 s

  306. Thank you Stamp 🙂

  307. Interestingly enough, Warren was on the State’s witness list.


  309. Someone just noticed several large vehicles from B.C. moving south on I-15 south of Beaver. Couple Utah Econoline vans too. Anybody know anything?

  310. In Prophet’s Prey, Sam B relates that, years ago, upon hearing the young wsj was about to come over for a “visit,” young females in said “visit” location would..1. “tape newspapers over their windows, and, 2. stuff towels under their bedroom doors”…. ( apparently wsj made use of mirrors slid underneath same, to try to get a PEEP at the PRETTIES in a state of unfeather..)

    Now, let us pause, friends, for I have just realized we have a panoply of P’s stringing themselves through wsj’s perplexing life:
    he was..
    a PREMIE infant…
    …became papa prophet’s little PRINCE, who also was prone to pulling pervy pranks… he slogged through puberty, finished high school, and soon became PRINCIPAL of papa’s plyg-prep parochial premesis… He PREACHED and PLYGGED his PRIESTHOOD PRATTLE until POLICE PURSUIT and PROSECUTION PILFERED his PROMISES of PARADISE to a PLETHORA of PUBESCENT PREY even whilst PUNISHING the (a)POSTATES… also PLUNDERING their PROGENY and POCKETBOOKS. Now he’s a convicted PERP, PLUCKED from such places as PURGATORY and PALESTINE, and presently is a protected PRISONER at POWLEDGE…. he will just have to PRACTICE his PERVERY and PROPHETRY with PARED-down PHONE PRIVILEGES, WHILST PRAYING he will PASS all the tests… and while PONDERING his… his, uh, PHATE…

  311. and while PONDERING his… his, uh, PHATE…

    gretchen said this on November 6, 2011 at 2:16 PM

    Ah yes his Phate, Peckerwood Hill Cemetery in Huntsville,Texas!

  312. Aye gretchen… that assuredly appeals to my affection for alliteration.

  313. 3C, nothing concrete but I’ve heard there’s trouble in Paradise/Canada.

  314. Sister Wives try to explain Warren Jeffs to their brood.

  315. Kody: “He should have been stopped by his own people.” Huh.

  316. Quite a masterpiece, Gretchen.

  317. Gretchen –
    That was indeed impressive.

  318. Anybody heard current news about Leroy Jeffs lately ? Is he going to court ? >>>> other-Anon

  319. Why would Leroy Jeffs be going to Court?

  320. HA HA

    Kody looks so indignant about Warren Jeffs – yet his own chruch has a long laundry list of evils too – ripping millions from a woman, and now its been discovered the Pinesdale location of AUB is a hotbed of child molestation..

    So if Kody says Warren’s people should have stopped him, what is Kody doing to stop his chruch from THEIR evils?

  321. Merril is getting warmed up to give his awesome defense. This will be interesting.

    Biggergaff gonna brag up Merril on how he supplied him with lots of slave labor?

  322. Word is, the jury is out for deliberation… shouldn’t take long!

    Please, would someone here who is a Facebook friend with Mike Watkiss please post this on his wall?? Thank you.

  323. Cant be out for deliberation that fast. Hard to imagine two witnesses and closing statements run through by noon. But its possible.

  324. Kody is a true believer. He genuinely believes that he has chosen to live in a way that pleases God and he is appalled that others with similar beliefs are dragging his faith through the mud.

    I don’t fault him for that – and I appreciate that he places part of the blame for WSJ’s reign of terror on the followers who did not try to stop him.

    I want to see him go much farther, though and use his platform to call out the Utah justice system for doing nothing to protect victims of religiously-inspired and religiously-MANDATED abuse.

    The Utah Supreme Court came right out and stated that the Elissa Walls jury might have found Jeffs innocent if they had been instructed to consider whether he *intended for 14-year-old Elissa to be raped when he ordered her to a) marry and b) “go home and submit to” her 19-year-old husband – and for that they overturned the only conviction Utah had been able to secure against him.

    Next up is the judge-mandated suppression of Jeff’s rape tapes out of concern for protecting his “religious freedom” and then, of course, there is the same judge actively trying to ensure the FLDS retains control over the UEP trust in spite of mountains of evidence of abuse by the FLDS leadership both of the trust itself – and of members through manipulation of trust assets.

    The root problem is a justice system (likely backed by powerful political forces) that is corrupted by a stunning preference for protecting the religious freedom of leaders no matter how despicable, corrupt or abusive. Read the Elissa Walls’ decision. There is no detectible concern for her well being or the massive injustice she suffered.

    Unless there is some public outcry *in Utah* against a top-down system that is rigged against justice for victims, nothing will change. Kody has a nice platform and the ear of folks who are in a position to make a difference. I’d like to see him use it!

    There is a reason it took Texas to stop Jeffs. Too many Utah judges would clearly prefer to see him stay in power than see their own priesthood powers challenged – no matter what the cost to his victims.

    If Kody wants to promote the cause of polygamy – let first fight for a justice system that would hold men like WSJ in check.

  325. Thats a different POV, I think I would agree with it, but the AUB has its own abuses they have – and are getting away with – too.

    So I see Kody as blowing smoke at the more evil offenders, whats his excuse?

    The AUB is less evil?

  326. Cant be out for deliberation that fast. Hard to imagine two witnesses and closing statements run through by noon. But its possible.

    Chaps said this on November 7, 2011 at 12:32 PM

    Yes the jury is out for deliberations, here’s the report from the San Angelo paper:

    Lets hope the jury returns with a guilty verdict.

  327. THX

    Wow that just seems so fast. Read the go san angelo, Rae is hanging his entire defense on “Its not really a real marriage” but it looks like he got his balloon shot down.

    I would fully expect a guilty verdict based on that lame defense… I guess when you believe in Warren you might believe any thing is possible.

    Merril will learn quick that gambling doesnt pay.

  328. So I see Kody as blowing smoke at the more evil offenders, whats his excuse?
    The AUB is less evil?
    Chaps said this on November 7, 2011 at 12:50 PM

    From Kody’s perspective, a few bad actors don’t make the entire system evil. He believes his own faith is good.

    I’d like to harness the righteous indignation of folks like Kody to curb some of the worst abuses. If the pro-polygamy crowd really believes that polygamy is a harmless lifestyle choice, then they should have no problem calling out abusers and demanding protection for victims.

    Utah keeps saying they are only interested in prosecuting abuses in polygamous families – not polygamy itself. Ok, then: Show us a prosecution! Let us see some indication Utah can recognize abuse when it see it. Right now – “abuse” in Utah seems to be defined as “a bad act for which the accused was not able to successfully suppress all the evidence nor shut-down all the witnesses.”

    If you looked only at prosecution records, it would be easy to conclude there is very little abuse among polygamists in Utah. If only Texas wasn’t around with their D**M liberal standards for admitting evidence!

  329. GUILTY


    That was fast

  331. gosanangelo rports – Texans rope another dope!

  332. The defense was that it’s not an illegal marriage cause it’s not a legal marriage? I’m not following that line of logic. Sounds like the jury did not either.

  333. Rae didnt have much to work with.

    Now Merril not only will get twice the prison time a plea would have gotten him, he owes Rae a pile of money.

    Guess thats a win – win?

  334. My, My, another one to ride that white bus to Huntsville,TX. Ole Merril the wife beater will never beat again, but he’s will certainly will get his chance to be on the receiving end of beatings as his fellow inmates will be sure he receives as he gave. Carolyn Jessop will surely be smiling where ever she is.

    Reminds me of of a song, another one bites the dust:

  335. Tried to post Another one Bites the Dust, try again:

  336. A county clerk? Really? That’s ALL Ray had up his sleeve?

  337. When your caught red handed, what can you do but throw sand in the wind?

    Buh Bye Merril!

    Nice knowin ya, dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

  338. Anybody know what type of prison their going to put Merrill in ? Medium or maximum ? There’s another fate worse than death , WSJ will have to suffer thru it , LIFE + 20 years in PRISON . >>>> other-Anon

  339. I would imagine that Merril will not go to a max unit.

    If he’s lucky he’ll get to be in a unit with one of his two sons who are serving time.

    Warren is the only one serving in protective custody, so Merril will probably go into general population wherever he is assigned.

    Assuming the jury doesn’t go soft and give him probation.

  340. Will Merill be at the same place as some of the others or even WJS? Do they have geriatric units in Prison?

  341. My understanding is that there are units better suited for the geriatric population and that Warren is in one of those.

    I would imagine Merril’s past health issues will land him in one of those, although I will be very surprised if he is housed in the same unit as Warren.

  342. They should room Warren and Merril together, that way when the walls fall down they can both escape!

  343. Oh, I’m sorry, but I will not tolerate a probated sentence in this case. Who’s with me?

  344. I am

  345. Thinking about Merriane Jessop. She lost her mother Barbara not too long ago. Her name and picture has been all over the news and the humiliation of what she endured was made public knowledge. A couple of her brothers are now in jail. The leader of her church was NOT delivered and released and is jailed for life, and he is NOT her husband after all, if he could really ever be called that, and now her father is going to jail. I hope that young lady is smart and will turn her back on all that has hurt her and come out of the group and start a new life.

  346. So apparently the Judge won’t let the state play the WSJ rape audio for the jury during sentencing.

  347. Who does she think she is, James Shumate?

  348. Yeah. Big shoes to fill.

  349. Greetings from sunny/rainy Honolulu..I’m on the high seas again. I’ve been keeping track of the trial along the way.
    I love Texas…no fooling around! Tick another felon off the list and move! No doctors note to get him outta this one. Altho, he may try that trick again, yet. Wouldn’t come as a surprise to me.

  350. I’m not surprised that she didn’t let the rape tape in. I was really surprised that it was found on a computer in Merril’s house and in a folder on said computer called “Happy Work”.

    And this one’s for Charlie – Texas 10 – Warrenites 0!!!

  351. In Utah they are having a conference on subject of family violence and abuse of children, no mention of the abuse that goes on in FLDS like groups, would have to agree with post in comments asking why this issue is ignored in Utah.

  352. Rae played the “he’s a man who is in ill health” card in his opening remarks for punishment.

  353. Shoulda had him on portable oxygen the entire time.

    Going by Merril’s photos, he doesn’t look frail to me.

    He looks like he still enjoys his steak dinners.

    Wendell didn’t look so hot in his photos. He appears to have lost quite a bit of weight.

  354. Waller’s latest on Merril:

  355. I was hoping for a perp walk pic to go along with Matthew’s story.

  356. Is Warren still in the unit he was in before his “illness”?

  357. Yes, he has been moved back to Palestine.

  358. Newsflash, the rape tape was on a computer that was found in Merril’s house and the file folder it was in was entitled “Happy Work”.

  359. thanks, anon

  360. “Happy Work” eh?

    I can just imagine Merril telling Warren his fun times are saved in the “Happy Work” file.

    Well those boys have some prison “Happy Work” ahead of them, and all that time to think about it.

  361. Oh, and Rae’s plea to save Merril from prison

    “He’s an ill man”

    No, he is a SICK man!

  362. Well, if they know about that on the jury, sentencing is NOT going to be light!

  363. Maybe today I will figure out how to get my name and image back.

    New laptop.


  364. tip

    Type in your handle and email – that may do it

  365. Maybe. That seems too easy. I thought I had to do something with Gravatar….let’s see….

  366. Well, there you go. SIlly picture and all. Thanks!

  367. Ben Winslow on Merril & potential other defendants:,0,1349045.story

  368. Poor Utah, if only they’d had evidence to act on before. Sniff.

  369. I was hoping the convictions would scare other polygamists, but Kody’s little speech makes me think that they are just congratulating themselves for not being as bad a nut case as WSJ.

  370. Utah has known about the evidence and has chosen to bury their head in the sand instead of acting on it. Why in the world would you have a statute of limitations that’s only 4 years.

  371. We had the same statute in Idaho (might have been 2 or 3 years) until only about five years ago. I think there should be no limit. Just like murder.

  372. Yes, I think there should be no limit on any kind of sexual assault, but especially concerning children.

  373. Floodgates opened Tuesday morning on evidence for bad acts against Fredrick Merril Jessop

  374. I think there should be a special law aimed directly at religious leaders who make participation in or support for crimes like child sexual assault either religiously acceptable, or worse, an article of faith.

    If it is found in their teaching and other evidence indicates the faithful took it to heart and acted on that teaching – or attempted to do so – that should result in prison time right there. No rape tape needed.

    “Pure religious intent” should be seen as an aggravating factor (not just a lousy excuse) when it is used to prey upon young children.

  375. Sam Brower on the Fox 13 video posted by Third Cousin looks a bit frail. Does anyone one know how he is doing? I’m hoping he was just coming off a long night. He’s done so much to expose this mess, I hope to see him continue the fight for a long time to come.

  376. So Merril got 10 years in prison + $ 10,000 fine , I guess he thought he was going to get probation or some other technicality , would keep him out of prison , all I can say to that is ” April fools , dumb ass ” > lol > watch out for the bubbas > other-Anon

  377. Anon – that’s what they are asking for – hasn’t been decided yet – could still get probation

  378. Eldorado Success reporting that Merril has been sentenced to 10 years.

    No probation.

    Do not pass go.

  379. $10,000 fine.

    Perp walk photo.

    Merril not smiling.

    Merril shoulda taken the deal that was on the table.

    Even if found guilty and sentenced to prison, he would have been out on an appeal bond.

    Bye-bye, Merril.

  380. As I said before this one’s for Merrill ” April fools , dumb ass ” watch out for the bubbas . >>>>> other-Anon

  381. WoW ..

    I wonder if these other ” Leaders ” are starting to experience second thoughts about keeping Uncle Warrens bullshit alive? Lyle Jeffs ( as i remember ) was a drunk who frequented the sports bars in SLC and chased skirt with the rest of us. He is up here telling the peeps that they all MUST consecrate themselves deeper into the illusion >>>>>>>

    The kids are beginning to revolt… again
    Facebook is getting their stories public, but its just a turn on the ole wheel.
    My favorite java hut has been shut down and reopened again. They have several girls who operate it and just hand me what i usually order. Today there was some ugly bat that opened the window and asked me what I want. I said ” your not my Girl ” ” They know what i drink ” to that she turned around and asked ” You Guys Know this Dude? ” I could hear the regulars saying ” Oh yea ! We know HIM ” So there is a filter being placed in front of every child out here saying ” Im protecting you from evil ” But They are just crappy ugly people who are protecting their crappy ugliness.

    They are messin with my Coffee … GOD HELP THEM

  382. YaY!!!
    I was afraid the “I’m an old man and I will die in prison” defense would work.
    Hope he lives every one of those 10 years.

  383. I don’t know why, but this Stephanie Sinclair photo has been on my mind recently:

    It was taken when “Patsy” Shurtleff was negotiating with the FLDS to bring an end to the UEP Trust suits.

    I’ve also been musing on the old photographs from the 1940’s of the Short Creek and SLC polygamists who went to prison in Utah.

    That was then.

    This is now.

    These aren’t their father’s prisons.

    (Raymond and Leroy Jessop being exceptions….)

    Welcome to Texas.

  384. Well, doggone it, Anonymous 6:18, you DO have my sympathy about the coffee mess-up– I mean, talk about sacriledge!! (sp?)

    HOWEVER- I am certainly not flds, and I try very hard to keep standing up against the freakishness of it all, but…! …
    I frankly consider myself kind of an ugly (+older) bat!! Therefore, my leathery, little old wings want you to make some kind of distinction between ugly flds bats, and the rest of us ugly bats!! KAY???

    P.S.–On a lighter note, they gave Merrilly-werrilly ten in the pen!!

    Hip, Hip, Hooray, and all that jazz!

  385. …..and for anybody all sensitive about calling flds babes ugly in any way, shape, or form, I am on record some weeks ago as pointing out that many of them are quite the lookers, so please go smooth your feathers! and don’t forget that I just laid claim myself to being an ugly bat (see above)–albeit an “apostate”/”gentile” ugly bat… So there!!

  386. His Lordship, BC Supreme Court Chief Justice Robert Bauman will be releasing the reasons for his judgment on the polygamy reference case testing the constitutionality of s. 293 (Canada’s law banning the practice of polygamy) on November 23, 2011 at 10:00 a.m. PST.

    To review the reasons which will be released electronically, go to
    and, click on “recent judgments” link on the left side of the screen.

  387. RE > Ugly

    They redefine ugly. They are consumed with discriminative hate. I seriously doubt you meet the requirements of this particular brand of ugly. This is in their bones…. sry G

  388. Laura Chapman
    Jan 15, 2010 9AM #
    Once again the journalists got twitter patted that the isolated members of the FLDS “trusted them” that they didn’t want to betray their trust. THIS GOT IN THE WAY OF GOOD JOURALISM!!!

    You’ve only featured the ideal home and community experiences. Not the poor run down trailers of the families the leaders have exploited. No meantion of the 2 million dollars owed in property taxes while members expect tax payers to pay for their public defenders when they have impregnated 9 girls under the age of 15.

    Where are the photos of the deformed children from inbreeding and the ones with IQ’s fewer than 20. What about the children raped and sodomized by leaders, grandfathers, fathers, uncles and brothers. What about the sad faces of over 1500 boys thrown out without their parents ever facing abandonment charges or child welfare investigations And the girls forced into marriage in terror while being told this is what GOD wants, with no help in sight while everyone around them celebrates.

    What about the children they adopt and then marry to their adoptive fathers. The daughters forced to marry their stepfathers and share the same man with their mothers. The women and children dying without medical care. This is the polygamy I knew and experienced without the rose colored glasses they require you to wear.

    I wish they would do some hard research into the cost of polygamy to the taxing citizen. It would paint a very different picture than building a home start to finish in one day for a family and having 500 people show up to every single funeral.

    Years of research by the Southern Poverty Law Center has identified the FLDS are a hate group with white supremacy ideologies.

    Most of all they should have told what was discovered during the Texas Raid. Ask members what the bed (in the Temple) with an observation and praying platform, and rails to bind someone, was used for? What about the detials on how the child welfare case was mishandled when they sent children back! They returned some children to a community without ever determining who their biological parents were! They returned them to parents who do not have “protect parenting capacities.” Parents who handed over a 12 year old girl to Warren Jeffs. This is a pedophile sex ring….polygamy is the smoke screen!

    They never mention how the FLDS elders continually tamper with witnesses, intimidate and harass them into no longer testifying.

    A man with 5 wives and 46 children is nothing more than a sperm donor. By definition he is not a husband, father, or grandfather. Joe Jessop has spread the recessive gene of fumarase deficiency ….to 239 offspring!

    Oprah Winphrey and National Geograpghic need to cover the full story backed up by a wealth of research, or refrain from covering this topic at all.

  389. So, BiB, do you know if he came out for it or ag’in’ it?

  390. Betty, we don’t know yet. Tune in November 23.

  391. A man with 5 wives and 46 children is nothing more than a sperm donor. By definition he is not a husband, father, or grandfather. Joe Jessop has spread the recessive gene of fumarase deficiency ….to 239 offspring!

    Oprah Winphrey and National Geograpghic need to cover the full story backed up by a wealth of research, or refrain from covering this topic at all.

    Anonymous said this on November 8, 2011 at 11:22 PM

    Amen to that, Anon !

  392. I’ve never watched Oprah – and I thought it was off the air now. However, I went to her site for contact info and it still refers to upcoming shows.

    In any event, my impression of Oprah is that she is willing to admit mistakes and is appalled by child abuse. I recall news stories of her fast, decisive action in response to news of abuse at a school she started in S. Africa, for example.

    She is a huge influencer. It might make sense for folks concerned about this issue to write to her asking that she and her staff revisit the issue – and maybe dig a little deeper into the legal and political support system that has allowed the abuse to fester unchecked for so long.

    Anyone with a personal story to tell either of abuse, alienation from family, religious manipulation, violation of legal rights etc. is in a great position to write and say: This is what I experienced. This is what continues to happen. It is still going on in part because too many people buy into the FLDS PR campaign. That campaign has been used to deflect attention from some seriously evil behavior that has caused tremendous harm to children and adults – and it is STILL happening.

    Since Oprah helped this group project their false image to the world, we would respectfully request they come back and dig a little deeper. Talk to investigators and former insiders like Sam Brower and Carolyn Jessop. Read some of the mind-boggling legal decisions in Utah that make it almost impossible for prosecutors to win a conviction – no matter how strong the evidence. Look at how those judges were appointed. Look into their background. Help the world understand how it is that this group has been allowed to develop into a a efficient, well-funded child-abuse factory – in spite of the fact that many of their crimes have been well-documented for years!

    It is possible that the child marriage issue is over for the moment, but from what I understand, child labor violations (child slavery), coerced marriages, education abuse, and other extreme forms of manipulation are still occurring.

    Welfare fraud and other financial crimes are also an issue – but I’d say the unchecked power of leaders to exploit children is the most important at the moment. Am I over-reacting to a few news stories – or is my impression that children are still being exploited (taken out of school and sent to work in FLDS businesses) on a large scale accurate?

  393. Washington County, Utah drops rape charges against Warren Jeffs:

  394. Have I mentioned before how appalled I am that the Utah Supreme Court overturned that conviction in the first place?

    It may have come up.

    I read the decision. It is mind boggling!

    This is the key:

    “[T]o reverse a trial verdict, [we] must find not a mere possibility, but a reasonable likelihood that the error affected the result.” …. We find such a likelihood here.”

    They do find potentially legitimate errors: for example equating Jeffs with the “actor” in the rape – when the Utah statute appears to reserve that term for the rapist himself – in this case, Steed.

    However, it takes significant effort to twist the logic of the entire case to come to the conclusion that the errors might have effected the outcome. They rely on the fact that the Jury did not indicate which of the State’s three theories of non-consent they were relying on. They state it is possible the jury might have found Jeffs innocent – because the jury might have disagreed with the one valid (in the court’s view) theory of non-consent: namely that “The victim expresses lack of consent through words or conduct”. Yet the decision itself lists all the ways Elissa expressed non-consent.

    The other two theories that have to do with age difference mistakenly (in the court’s view) refer to Jeffs rather than Steed as the “actor”.

    They worry about the idea that mistaking the person with “special trust” for the actor could lead to a father being convicted of felony rape for “encouraging” his minor daughter to marry the adult father of her child. Personally – I don’t think any child should be forced or coerced into an unwanted marriage under any circumstances – so that outcome, however unlikely, doesn’t concern me. Clearly, it concerns the Utah Supreme Court. They could not allow a decision to stand that could impede an adult man from exercising control over a minor girl’s marriage choice.

    Then there is this:

    “For example, even if Jeffs never intended for Steed to rape Wall, the jury instruction allowed for the possibility that he would be found guilty simply because he intentionally performed the marriage ceremony and the existence of the marriage aided Steed in raping Wall. For this reason, the jury instruction was also erroneous.”

    “Even if Jeffs never intended for Steed to rape Wall…” On what planet does a religious leader force a 14-year-old into marriage with an adult male without intending that she be raped?

    This is the kind of reasoning (magical thinking) that allows religiously mandated sexual abuse to fester in Utah. Unless there is a camera in the bedroom, no evidence will ever be conclusive enough to satisfy these guys!

  395. DeToto had the drug charges against her dropped.

  396. Is anybody surprised that Utah can’t seem to prosecute crimes by pollygamists, but Texas can? Not I.

  397. Apologies if anyone (or everyone) is tired of this topic, but the other thing the Utah Supreme Court ruling highlights is that there is, in fact, no law against being accomplice to rape in Utah if one is talking about statutory rape.

    In that case, only the “actor”, the rapist, can be charged. All the other enablers are free and clear. Utah did have a legitimate case against Jeffs because Elissa Walls “expressed lack of consent” by crying, locking herself in the bathroom, begging Steed to stop, etc.

    However, if she had submitted quietly (however miserably) there would be no case at all against anyone other than Steed. Jeffs could have married as many 12-year-olds as he chose to other men and had no legal liability in Utah – even though the rapes would be occurring at his direction. The “husbands” could be charged, but as long as the little girls stayed quiet, Jeffs would have remained off the hook for any but his own child rapes.

    Jeffs may be in jail, but this is still true for any other religious leader who wishes to take up the practice in Utah. The coast is clear. The liability is all on the men to whom you assign the brides.

  398. All I can say to Merrill , Leroy Steed , Mike Emack & WSJ etc , is this saying “Oh how the mighty have fallen ! ” April fools d**b a*s ! >> other-Anon

  399. Rebecca Kimbel has produced a new video :

  400. oh brother..kind of hard to convict someone for rape as an accomplice when the main actor wasn’t convicted of rape in the first place. Steed was never convicted of rape and all the spin in the world can’t change the fact that Wall said yes when she married the man.

  401. Merril’s sentence, imo, was well deserved. He did not come across as an honorable person. His failure to pay child support even when ordered to is one example. Another is his actions when Texas CPS and LE rescued the children from the YFZ compund. These were not the crimes for which he was sentenced, but do show a lack of honesty and of honor,

  402. You are wrong ZXC, Steed confessed on the stand in the trial and later plead guilty. He served 30 days in prison and is now on probation. So yes, the main actor was convicted of rape.

    Utah didn’t drop the case because Warren wasn’t guilty. He was found guilty by a jury and that was overturned on a technicality, it wasn’t overturned for lack of evidence. The main reason that Utah dropped the case was because Warren would be 100 before he could get out of prison in Texas and that would only be if he were granted parole which would be if he had shown remorse for his crime and was rehabilitated. I don’t see that happening, so I think it is safe to say that he would never make it to Utah to serve any sentence he would receive there so Utah is saving it’s money. One thing to remember is that Utah now has dictations to use in the case and also much more evidence than it originally had. They also have the fact that Steed was convicted.

  403. Nicely said Anon at 7:20AM. ZXC, we’ve all heard that stuff before and no one is buying it.

  404. Ditto!

    Though its recognized there are still true blue believers – though they are becoming fewer by the day.

  405. I’m wondering if you can prosecute a pimp in Utah for selling an under aged girl? Do you have to have proof in writing that the pimp intended for her to be raped? Are we going to discuss whether or not a 14 year old who is sold at auction is consenting? Or is there maybe some pandering offense, maybe a misdemeanor? Maybe he thought the buyer was going to help her with her homework. After all, you can argue a pimp is a polygamist. But maybe to get a free pass you have to be white/Northern European and a follower of Joseph Smith to set up a child prostitution ring.

  406. To me, one of the biggest outrages of Utah legal incompetence came with Brian Mitchell.

    To kidnap a wealthy man’s child, and then rape her daily for months, and then they stuff this guy under the rug like so many others hoping nobody noticed…. SHAME

    The Feds must have been stunned by the impotence – they took the ball and scored a great conviction.

    Right on Utah’s turf.

    When will Utah wake up? What does it take?

  407. I agree Stamp. I’d love to help Utah wake up and smell the coffee!!

  408. I think whats going on is, the more noise these troublemakers raise, the harder Utah tries to shut it up and keep it quiet at all costs.

    When they should be doing the opposite.

    Make some noise, take some action to end these abuses, show some spine, and get past it.

  409. Well put, Stamp.

  410. I have been in most of the lower 48 states. About 8 years ago, whilst at Zion Natl. Park, and later, in a couple motel rooms, I noticed things that made just traveling through Utah feel odd—outside Zion I noticed a newspaper machine with the childbride problem right on the front page. Then a couple nights later, I noticed that Utah cable tv had frequent mention of the lds church, (which is totally unlike any other tv programming practice in any state I had ever seen.)- I mean, maybe the Catholic church has frequent ads in some areas, but I had never seen any on regular programming ( I am not talking about religious programming tv channels.)
    At a rural grocery store near Capitol Reef, I noticed that the only things to be seen at the check-out counter and on the bulletin board were dozens of “temple marriage” announcements and photos of couples– no garage sale flyers, babysitting offers, bicycles for sale, etc. None of the normal grocery store stuff I had seen all my life in many other states. Just lots and lots of “temple marriage” stuff. It was weird. I felt weird. My daughter and I also got stared at by the small group of guys standing outside the store. I mumbled to her, “Let’s make this quick, they might try to steal you”–honestly, I did feel weird, and I am not going to apologize for feeling weird, because it felt weird.
    I did not recall feeling this way in any other areas. There are tons of rednecks in many states, (my state has tons) and their worst behaviors are the only thing I can think of that compares with the creepiness my daughter and I sensed a couple times while in Utah. Nope, I am not apologizing for how we felt! Maybe we were stared at just because we had never been seen around those places before. We didn’t have anything unusual about our pretty typical American casual clothing or behavior- actually, my own attire is always very plain and modest, and I am sure my daughter had on one of her usual very “teen-normal” get-ups, comfortable for long car drives we were taking daily, etc.
    From where I stand (most of my life lived on east coast US) – Utah has a theocratic situation. lds seems to dominate the social and historical fabric in a way not seen in other parts of the US… The fundamentalists are just an outgrowth of the original lds beliefs, even though some of the groups, like flds, say they broke away over 100 years ago.
    For me, there is no way to divorce the current situation from the historical facts. Mormon beliefs created by the con artist and lady’s man, Joseph Smith, are what spawned all this twisting of family structure, and created a culture where young girls are just seen as potential wives, even from birth.
    Family norms were given the finger by Joseph Smith. lds has tried hard to transform itself into a huge “traditional family” bastion of righteousness- when in fact, Joseph Smith was determined to show enormous disrespect for faithful monogamy and the traditional family unit as it had been recognized for centuries by western civilization. From the things I have read that are direct quotes from eyewitnesses of his behavior, he was predatory with women and teen girls. It’s hard to believe that the man wasn’t shot dead by an enraged husband, or wouldn’t be incarcerated in a state prison if doing the same things today. He persuaded married men to let him fiddle with their wives, (although it sounds like there were times some of his women somehow hid what he was doing for years from their husbands- only way I can figure he could do this was when he sent the men away on long mission trips. He waltzed girls as young as 14 when in his thirties. He didn’t want it known that he had kids with women besides Emma.
    Yet the fundies adamantly teach their kids to view their own country’s laws as expendable if they come up against the things Joseph Smith supposedly created– “righteous” living, “family values”-…the fundies don’t practice either of those things in reality- they break down families, they break down women and children. Having too many children to properly supervise, forcing women and girls to compete within the home for the attentions of one adult male, when I am sure most of them don’t even want to be around him anyway-That’s all totally anti-family, in my view.

    lds leadership is never going to acknowledge the mess Joseph Smith and Brigham Young started because they are determined to promulgate absolute falsehoods about the roots of mormonism. Polygamy was part and parcel of Smith’s and Young’s every day lives and words. Women were threatened by both of them in no uncertain terms. Perhaps the exact quotes by these guys need to be published far more openly somehow in Utah.

    It is astonishing to me that some of the bravest people involved in this fight against polygamy are still lds themselves. When Salt Lake City acknowledges the multitude of lies regarding polygamy, and with the total fantasy in its “scriptures,” then people involved with lds can make the right choices that need to be made.
    Presenting the facts about Smith,Young, and the rest of the early and not-so-early lds leaders is therefore left to secular or evangelical websites, and other non-lds churches and groups (which often include a multitude of former lds people who can’t take the inconsistencies, totally unsound, fake “history” and non-existent “archeology” in lds teachings anymore.)- It shows how successful the lie machine has been with Salt Lake City all these years, that there are still so many intelligent people still faithful to mainstream lds wards. They just do not look into the historical facts about lds because they are too busy in everyday matters with successful careers I guess.
    Groups opposing polygamy need to be faithfully supported with finances, more safe house facilities must be acquired and properly managed. Phone calls and letters to government opposing polygamy at all costs need to keep going indefinitely.

    As far as US major media goes, polygamy is being dishonestly portrayed and then marketed to our nation by tv corporations. There should be boycotts in a huge systematic way until the producers get the message that nobody wants to see this very open and dramatic attack on the American family and way of life, for that is exctly what it is.

  411. Gretchen, can you tell me where you get these “facts” about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? Have you studied the original documents?.

  412. all the spin in the world can’t change the fact that Wall said yes when she married the man.
    ZXC said this on November 10, 2011 at 12:30 AM

    Are you for real?

    The following is a direct quote from the Utah Supreme Courts summary of the facts in the case:

    “Knowing that she would no longer be welcome in Jessop’s home and that she would have to give up her relationships with her mother and her siblings if she did not marry Steed, Wall felt she had no option but to go through with the marriage. In April 2001, Wall was taken to Caliente, Nevada, for the wedding. Jeffs performed the ceremony, throughout which Wall cried tears of despair and fear. When Jeffs asked her if she took Steed to be her husband, she hung her head and said nothing. Jeffs repeated the question, and again Wall did not answer. After a long silence, Jeffs asked Wall’s mother to stand by Wall and hold her hand. Jeffs repeated the question a third time, and Wall’s mother squeezed her hand. Finally, Wall answered, “Okay, I do.”

    She was 14. She begged the prophet not to force her to marry Jeffs. She had no way of surviving on her own if she disobeyed and her family kicked her out.

    This is your idea of a girl saying “yes”?


    Maybe what Utah really needs is mandatory education on the concept that US-born women are entitled to the same constitutionally-protected right to “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” as men.

    Forced (or coerced) marriage is a serious violation of two out of those three fundamental rights.

  413. Gretchen , we have politicians/ legislators/lawyers & some judges , no matter where they are , who are CORRUPT , very few care about what happens to the flds women & girls , Texas being the exception though , As for what’s happened with the lds/flds over the years , & their beliefs ,God will judge them for their actions on earth , God & Jesus are the ultimate judges , let them handle that part , they will give their judgements to everybody ! >>>> other-Anon

  414. gretchen said this on November 10, 2011 at 12:47 PM

    Gretchen, you are not going to solve polygamy by attacking the core beliefs of the LDS, if anything posts of the type will drive off any LDS who would help with the polygamy problem. You don’t seem to understand that by attacking their beliefs you only drive them to look the other way. In the real world that translates as Utah takes no action, poorly written laws that make action against people like Warren Jeffs & Brian David Mitchell are not changed to make enforcement possible.

    You don’t have to accept their beliefs, but realize the polygamy problem is not going to go away as long as the LDS feel they are being attacked. Common sense tells me you won’t get the help of the LDS with this type of post. Realize that many LDS like Sam Brower & Bruce Wisan helped expose the evils of polygamy.

  415. Jerrie, it’s just a normal case of blame-the-victim, the ‘ho was asking for it, etc. Education won’t help if deep down you think women are subhuman.

  416. When the signs are obvious some still look the other way.

    Here is a link to a story about a young man named Garrett Smith. Garrett took his own life and as people looked back they saw the signs that were ignored or misunderstood.

    Garrett Smith was the son of Senator Gordon Smith from Oregon.

    This was written in 2004

    From the article: Yet Garrett struggled in school. He was dyslexic. Reading and writing came hard, and he had trouble spelling ordinary words. Sometimes he would withdraw to his room for an entire day. His parents chalked that up to a lack of confidence and his troubles with schoolwork. One day when Garrett was 13, his mother found him in his room, crying. She asked what was wrong and remembers him saying he could never marry because he would not be able to take care of a wife and children. She thought he was overly worried about his learning disability.

    At age 13 this young boy was worried that he could never marry and have children.


  417. This was aired in 2009 and what they say was the “bombshell” was the fact that Garrett admitted to drinking in the family home at the age of 17. And the fact that when he was filling out paperwork for his upcomming mission he checked the box that stated he suffered from bouts of depression.


  418. Teen-Age Suicide
    In July 2004, U.S. Senator Gordon Smith, a Mormon from Oregon, promoted a bill in the Senate to provide money for counseling teen-agers at risk of suicide. The Salt Lake Tribune reported that Senator Smith’s son, Garrett Lee Smith, “ended his own life the day before his 22nd birthday in September, 2003, following a struggle with bipolar disorder.” During the Senate discussion, Utah Senator Orin B. Hatch noted that “teen-age suicide among young men was higher in Utah than any other state.”

    The Mormon Church quickly responded that these statistics did not reflect on the Mormon Church. In fact, research has shown that the incidence of suicide among Mormon men who are active in their church, that is, young men who have followed the prescribed path and have received the “appropriate priesthood calling for their age” — is lower than any place in the country. (See my video critique of this very dishonest study: & )

    The video is set to private so I couldn’t see what he had to say. But the following stories listed on the page were interesting and offered much info.

    I don’t know of one person that posts on any of these boards that wants to offend Sam Brower, Gary Wisan or any one else that might be of the LDS faith. I know that I don’t. I have a lot of respect for anyone who has tried to reach out to help those in need.

    But the facts are facts. And the signs are there. We can talk in circles for another 10 years and point to all the other signs but it is what it is.

    Sometimes people have made comments that I sometimes sound like a hick. I use to get offended. But then it dawned on me that I live in hickville so of course I sound like a hick. Doesn’t bother me any more when people say it. It is what it is.


  419. Gretchen, I felt the same way when I moved to Salt Lake. First week there on the news there was a story about a fire at an ice company that was owned and operated by known polygamist family -Kingstons. They then did a quick summary of the Kingston clan who had a few put in jail becuase the father had beat his daughter for refusing to marry her uncle. I thought then, are you kidding me, how does a polygamist family who beats and abuse a daughter openly own an ice company as well as other businesses and everyone knows it and yet still elects to do business with them? The weirdness for me continued from there.

    A few years ago I was on a plane heading to SLC to ski and sat next to a young lady returning home from her mission. She had served it in the south. She told me how really weird she found the south with a church with steeple on nearly every block. She could not believe how many churches there were and only then did she understand the term – the Bible belt. When she asked me how many children I had, I told her, “God did not call me to be a Mother.” Her knitted brow back at me reminded me of my look when I lived in SLC.

    So I think weird goes both ways.

  420. I had several dear friends who lived in Idaho in the Tetons. Their long driveway was off a gravel road to a quarry owned by LDS. They were approached by someone with the proposition…if you convert, we’ll pave and maintain your road. They were constantly approaching them in town…convert, convert! The LDS finally gave up and to this day that driveway remains unpaved! But it took several years telling them NO to get them to go away. Persistant little devils.

  421. They don’t come to my house anymore. Used to when they’d ring the bell my first question was “How many wives did Brigham Young have?” They never knew the answer and I told them when they figured it out to come back.

  422. PT, it’s kind of fun to imagine the conversations when they got back to mission control. Mission president banging head against wall, thinking “Gah! The Texans.”

  423. PT, excellent idea!

  424. “Sometimes people have made comments that I sometimes sound like a hick. I use to get offended. But then it dawned on me that I live in hickville so of course I sound like a hick. Doesn’t bother me any more when people say it. It is what it is.”

    I have the opposite problem. I start running off at the mouth and have been told (more than once – in more than one setting) that I intimidate the heck out of people. If your goal is be part of a conversation – shutting other people down is not exactly a win…

    (I don’t think I’ve managed to do that here – I hope. I’m very much an outsider – just trying to chime in to say: “Yes this IS outrageous! You can see the hypocrisy from Space!”)

    I do not think you sound like a “hick’, but even if you did, the language you use, the way you speak, etc. has NOTHING to do with the power or validity of what you have to say.

    The trick is getting people to pay attention – and that means having the confidence that what you have to say is worth hearing.

    It is worth hearing.

    I watched the video. I wasn’t sure why you were posting about suicide in Utah. I thought you made some very good points (and I’m deeply sorry about your brother).

    The part I think we, as concerned US citizens, whether we live in Utah or not, can impact is the lack of justice in Utah for certain groups of people. Utah is not free to ignore child slavery, forced marriages and other violations of its residents constitutional rights -simply because they choose to do so. The Internet makes it quick and easy to see the pattern – even for all us non-lawyers. We can speak up against the abuse of power in Utah – and hopefully force the government to behave like a secular government for once – instead of like an elected priesthood.

    When Utah says they can’t find “actionable offenses” in the millions of pages of documented abuse seized in Texas – it is time to speak up.

  425. Walton, we hicks have to stick together.

  426. I have a cousin who lives in Utah, they say that they have always assumed that the FLDS was sort of a fringe thing that nobody cared about….it doesn’t affect anybodies lives here….
    and that their LDS friends all think that the issue of polygamy is a joke (joke about great grandpa having to sleep on the floor because his wives ganged up on him).

    I think the issue is less about polygamy per se than the need for the people of Utah to have some lawmakers look at the laws they have on the books that could be more easily enforced. For example to purport to officiate at or witness “seal/marry” any child under the age of 18 with or without parental consent into a bigamous situation – that seems like a law that could be pretty hard to argue against in the legislature and it would not require any proof from the child – all it would require is evidence that the purported sealing/marriage took place. The officiators could be given a first felony conviction and the witness a second degree felony.

    So what is needed is for a group in Utah to start a petition to get that kind of law on the books..

  427. Central Virginia where I live is the home from which the traditional Southern accent evolved. Since I worked construction when I was young and lived in the country, I not only picked up a strong accent, but I can understand a variety of accents. I can usually tell if someone is a descendant of people who have been in VA for centuries or a “come here” just by hearing them talk. My northern friends say that my accent gives them cognitive dissonance. They expect ignorance from the sound but are getting intelligence and education from the words. My French relatives who are good at English still struggle with my accent, and my French pronunciation is just dreadful.

  428. To me, one of the biggest outrages of Utah legal incompetence came with Brian Mitchell…..

    When will Utah wake up? What does it take?
    Stamp said this on November 10, 2011 at 8:24 AM

    Clearly it takes federal intervention…

    I did not follow the Brian Mitchell case – other than to read the headlines at the time. I just looked up some old articles.

    You are right. It was classic avoidance.

    Obviously even Utah has to have a law against kidnapping one’s child bride at knife-point.

    There is no way to get around that one. Except that there is.

    You can say the guys actions and his bizarre beliefs prove he is mentally ill and therefore can’t be accountable. That lets you off the hook even on the most extreme end of this spectrum.

    The beauty of it is that the psychologists hired by the feds testified that:

    “Mr. Mitchell’s beliefs were not the crazy meanderings of a street-shouting preacher, but were instead rooted in the fundamentalist texts about polygamy and Joseph Smith that have been written since the mainstream Mormon Church disavowed polygamy generations ago.

    The more Mr. Mitchell’s belief system is shown to be part of a shared religious culture, said Stephen J. Morse, a professor of law and psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania, the more his lawyers can argue that, like thousands of other believers in polygamy and prophecy, including some polygamists now in jail, he is just another fanatic, deluded by a shared, perceived truth.

    What we have to do is make a judgment based on the behavior.”

    Quoted from:

  429. My northern friends say that my accent gives them cognitive dissonance. They expect ignorance from the sound…

    Betty said this on November 11, 2011 at 12:53 PM

    Southern accents don’t sound ignorant or unintelligent to me. The slower pace of speech does take some getting used to however.

    I do have some in-laws who live in Central VA. (I believe they are in the same town where you live. You mentioned it during the recent earthquake that was centered there.) I will confidently, if unprofessionally, diagnosis one of those relatives as having narcissistic personality disorder. To me the cognitive dissonance is the difference between the sweet, gracious speech and the evil, manipulative behavior….

  430. I know exaclty what you mean, Jerrie.

  431. Germany imposes criminal penalties on coercive marriages – when will the US step up to the plate ?,1518,796760,00.html

  432. an important part of the law is the right of return to Germany to initiate proceedings for up to 10 years!!!


  433. Maybe we should focus on asking for a federal law instead. States regulate marriage – but forced marriage is not really about “marriage”. It is about control. It takes a way an individual’s choice of how and where to live – as well as subjecting her (or him) to a host of other personal violations.

    Forced or coerced marriage is such a clear violation of an individual’s federally guaranteed constitutional rights (liberty, pursuit of happiness) – that it may be a mistake to leave it up to individual states to decide whether to take action against it or not.

    Time to start writing our federal senators and representatives?

  434. Trouble is,most girls in the FLDS feel honored to be married off to older, important man, they do not feel coerced. It is strange, but IMHO trrue.

  435. The trouble with a lot of Islaminc forced marriages is that they don’t take place on our soil. The man goes “home”, gets a new bride, and brings her back here as a cousin, niece, au pair. So there’s the problem of jurisdiction. But the girl is more constrained here, not knowing anybody or the language, laws and culture.

  436. Any news on the wife of Warren who managed to escape? I hope she hasn’t been coerced into returning

  437. Don’t know about coercion, but her family convinced her to return home.

  438. I’ve been thinking about her lately, especially while I was in the creek – it’s hard to walk outside of the only world you know. I hope she makes her choices freely, and I am glad she does not have the added pressure of children weighing on her decisions.

  439. Last I heard about her she had returned to her family, but not sure if it is the family in the Crick or others who have left.

  440. Thanks, PT.

  441. Trouble is,most girls in the FLDS feel honored to be married off to older, important man, they do not feel coerced. It is strange, but IMHO trrue.
    Anonymous said this on November 13, 2011 at 7:36 AM

    I think the key word here is “most”. When there is an Elissa Walls who clearly resisted, there should be laws in place to protect her choice – and to prosecute those who pressured her. It is not a complete solution – but it would help.

    I had a friend in college who moved here from Egypt when she was 12. Her family was coptic christian. Her father placed enormous pressure on both her and her sister to marry Egyptian men of his choice. He did not threaten them with violence -though other girls in their community did face that. Instead he did his best to keep them financially dependent on him and then used that leverage to try to get his way.

    My friend resisted. She managed to support herself through college and married an American man of her choosing. Her sister caved into the pressure and married an Egyptian man. She did not, however, give up her boyfriend. It was not a pretty situation for anyone involved….

    My point is that it does happen both inside and outside the FLDS. A clear legal framework that spells out the rights of girls and women to freely make their own choices about marriage would be very helpful. Many cultures feel it is acceptable to control the marriage choice of young girls – but in the US, they have to accept that women and girls enjoy equal status to everyone else.

    There are many things I hope my sons choose to do or not do. I can’t force their choices, however, simply because I am their mother. All I can do is raise them in accordance with my values – and hope they make what I consider to be good choices. So far so good. They are turning out to be fine young men. I’m very proud of them. Either way – by this point, many of their choices are out of my hands.

    I had my chance to shape their values and I still have an opportunity to influence them – but, control? Nope. The time for that is long past.

  442. Is Merril Jessop’s family back in the YFZ group? Thats a pretty big extended family to be ousted along with their patriarch. Who is left at the ranch now?

  443. The trouble with a lot of Islaminc forced marriages is that they don’t take place on our soil. The man goes “home”, gets a new bride, and brings her back here as a cousin, niece, au pair. So there’s the problem of jurisdiction.
    Betty said this on November 13, 2011 at 8:44 AM

    That is true. We can’t solve the entire problem, but we can ensure that women and girls on US soil are legally safe from forced marriage.

    Coerced marriage is trickier. For example, I don’t want to see a law that criminalizes overbearing mothers who push their *adult* children to marry. Manipulation is annoying – but adults can resist it.

    On the other hand, an underage girl who is faced with the choice of either accepting an unwanted marriage or abandonment deserves full legal protection. Her community may not hold a gun to her head, but they are still making a serious threat against her well being.

    As long as polygamist communities continue to grow (and the high birth rates do lead to growth), girls are risk of forced or co-erced marriage.

    In my job, I often have to think about how self-interest drives behavior.

    In faith-based polygamists communities men gain status by having multiple wives. However, birth ratios are 50/50 – which creates a wife-shortage. That creates a powerful incentive to ensure any girls born into the community stay – and become plural wives. Under normal circumstances, some girls are going to want to leave. It is easy to see how, in the absence of any outside influence a community like this can become closed and highly controlling.

    To counter the self-interest that drives the tendency to control – you need laws that create incentives to allow girls and women to make free choices.

    Odd as it sounds, I don’t really think this is about faith at the most fundamental level. Leaders are making choices to protect and enhance their own status and power and will go as far down that path as the law allows. It’s not all that different from Wall Street actually. They may say (and believe) they are driven by faith – but in each case you could predict their actions by looking at their self-interest – even if you knew nothing about their dogma…

  444. Where is Merril now? At the Byrd Unit?

  445. Here’s one for the Texans. I had no idea how long mormons had nursed their designs on the state of Texas (since 1844):

  446. Warrant’s busy again with the revelations I guess:

  447. I know that Merril’s son Jim is at the YFZ and his sons Nate and Fred aren’t. They were all at the trial.


    Vaughn Taylor and John M. Barlow are lying if they say that they received the information on Friday, October 28, 2011. In the first place there aren’t visitations scheduled on Fridays and in the 2nd place prisoners aren’t allowed to give things to visitors and visitors aren’t allowed to give things to prisoners.

  449. Probably passed through attorneys.

  450. He doesn’t have any attorneys of record at the moment.


    Vaughn Taylor and John M. Barlow are lying if they say that they received the information on Friday, October 28, 2011. In the first place there aren’t visitations scheduled on Fridays and in the 2nd place prisoners aren’t allowed to give things to visitors and visitors aren’t allowed to give things to prisoners.

    PT most likely this material was received via the US Postal service. The funny thing about it is that AG Abbott & Gov. Rick Perry most likely had this own there desks before Warren’s henchmen had it in “short creek”. Everything mailed is censored, so the really lunatic stuff probably never made it out. Believe if I read the rules at the prison website, inmates are not allowed to give or receive materials of any type during visitation, with exception of legal papers from the inmates lawyer. Inmates are allowed full access to US mail, all correspondence outbound and inbound are monitored by prison officials and are subject to censorship.

    Any phone calls are also monitored, anything an inmates say can and will be used against him. Only exception are communications with lawyer.

    Suspect these “revelations” were cleaned up by prison officials before being allowed out.

    Wonder if Warren knows his “revelations” are being edited by the prison warden when leaving via the postal service.. And if Warren makes a revelation by phone that the censer doesn’t like, the call can be terminated, that’s right Warren the guards and warden are listening in.

    See pages 65 to 100 (Chapters 2 thru 4)

  452. You are correct A Texan, they are not allowed to receive anything or give anything during visitation. I can’t imagine him taking a 284 page document to the prison post office to be mailed. That’s what I’m finding so strange. He’s only allowed 240 minutes of phone time a month and it has to be used in increments smaller than 15 minutes at a time. It must have taken a long time to dictate 284 pages in 15 minute chunks.

  453. Hey 3C, look at #2 on the Oct 5 one. He got a Verily in there.

  454. I never knew that Arizona and Utah had Volcanoes. Interesting.

  455. Warren’s revelations make for interesting reading. Quite comical.

  456. Who the heck is Ahman?

  457. We can only hope that #8 from the 9/25 version is targeted for West Texas.

  458. You are correct A Texan, they are not allowed to receive anything or give anything during visitation. I can’t imagine him taking a 284 page document to the prison post office to be mailed. That’s what I’m finding so strange. He’s only allowed 240 minutes of phone time a month and it has to be used in increments smaller than 15 minutes at a time. It must have taken a long time to dictate 284 pages in 15 minute chunks.

    Proud Texan said this on November 14, 2011 at 8:57 PM

    Yes IMO you are correct on mailing out 248 pages, how he did it was mailing a few pages at a time over a long period, possible that prison officials also held Warrens letters, and after censoring the letters, they may have sent all 248 pages in one bundle. Wonder if Lyle knows what he gets from Warren, is not what Warren wrote, but what the warden decides gets out. In a sense they are the revelations of the warden and prison officials. They can and do edit prison correspondence.

  459. Warren’s revelations make for interesting reading. Quite comical.

    Born in Brooklyn said this on November 14, 2011 at 9:07 PM

    Saw this posted elsewhere: “Ole Jeffs is beginning to sound a little like Brain David Mitchell, sounds like the looney stuff Mitchell wrote in his “Book of Immanuel”. Warren you shouldn’t plagiarize Mitchell, you are beginning to sound like him. Just don’t start singing.”

  460. Here’s an explanation of “ahman”. It’s essentially another name for God, as revealed to Joseph Smith.

  461. Who the heck is Ahman?
    Proud Texan said this on November 14, 2011 at 9:10 PM


    I remember it being Adam-ondi-Ahman, a where not a who.

    Here’s a quick Wicki description:

    “Adam-ondi-Ahman … is an historic site along the east bluffs above the Grand River in Daviess County, Missouri. According to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), it is the site where Adam and Eve lived after being expelled from the Garden of Eden. They believe it will be a gathering spot for a meeting of the priesthood leadership, including prophets of all ages and other righteous people, prior to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.”

  462. oops… that’s Wiki… and here’s the reference:

  463. Adam and Eve lived in Missouri? I thought they lived in around the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Who know it was in Missouri!!!

    After reading the Utah AG’s description of what the 248 page document is, it is merely a republication of writings by Rulon, Joseph and Brigham. It’s not Warren’s message. Warren’s message is purely in the revelations.

  464. Attention

    This latest release is timed for max effect with the remaining faithful followers here in CCA/ Hildale. Competition has appeared in the form of Doubt….. Warren has been writing and recieving more revelations DUH !
    ( he’s a prophet and mouthpiece and now Ahman the literal son of God 🙂
    W O R D >>>>

    Peruse the documents and you will find ( encoded ) direct instruction to the peeps who believe or may be teetering a bit. The unspoken message is
    ” Hang in there a bit longer and you will see more and more destruction in the world, and I am making it happen ” . Meanwhile back at the ranch the people are being slaved in business ventures that are owned solely by the Jeffs family and they aren’t planning on cutting payroll checks anytime soon! As long as this group will stay hypnotized is as long as they will be used to do their masters bidding. Plus at this point there are so few left
    ( 1,200 ) plus or minus, It is much better to sacrifice everything for the protection of the Prophet …. Sha ka ka

  465. Just help them flee anon@10:05.

    One message that needs to be out there is that if the men leave or are kicked out, they need to know that they have just as much right to the children as the wife does. Don’t leave the kids if Lyle tells you to leave. You don’t have to and it most certainly isn’t the law!!!

  466. Anon 10:09 is absolutely correct!

    MEN, DO NOT WALK AWAY FROM YOUR CHILDREN! You can go after the perps (Lyle et al) for alienation of affection. DO IT! It doesn’t matter if your wife/wives don’t want to go along with you, they are YOUR children too! The law is in YOUR favor!

    If you are the biological dad… act like it!

  467. What anon 10:05 said:

    This latest release is timed for max effect with the remaining faithful followers here in CCA/ Hildale.

    Hard as it is to read that junk, what you say about it makes sense to me.

  468. There is no need to flee

    If anyone needs to flee, its anyone who wants to keep the insane
    mandates of these little rich boy criminals alive.

    It wont be long now. Lyle has a call on his life. It cant be comfortable knowing that there are kids with high powered weapons who are aching
    for the opportunity to squeeze a round or two into his carcass >>>

    Gee Wizz what a mess

    Stay tuned

  469. I pray for non-violent insurrection. The best weapon to use that everyone has at their disposal is that tiny but powerful word, “No!” Personally, I like to preface it with “hell.”

  470. PT, only one verily? Puh-LEEZE. What a slacker.

    And even so, amen.

  471. Yes, let’s use our words, please.

  472. love that they are charging for reprints – $23.75 for something on the internet that you can print for pennies if you feel incline. just more useless dribble…

  473. It wont be long now. Lyle has a call on his life.

    Anonymous said this on November 14, 2011 at 10:44 PM

    What does that mean?

  474. When I was in CCA/Hildale last week I noticed there are just as many houses that do not display the word Zion above the door as there are that do. One creative sign was bright blue, much larger than all the rest, and had a large exclamation point.

    Anybody know what this means?

    Additionally, this is the first time I have not been followed down there with the exception of a frequently-circling fire chief. Several people actually waived at me. But two groups of children ran away from me just because I was driving by.

    Hope the tension there breaks soon and that people stand up for themselves and their children.

  475. Wendell N is unhappy about his probation conditions. Boo Hoo.

  476. Anybody check Mormon Hair POOF website today? If not, you’re missing some super-cool quotes! Such as : “If you want to learn about a culture and a people, come learn, but don’t do a raid.”- Bob Barlow is credited with that little gem…. and then scrolling down, we see the little plyg-wives-in-training at their desks at yfz “schoolhouse,” no doubt, where it says they were doing subjects “like math and science” from 7:30 am-3:00 pm..
    … in addition, we have a super-duper photo of a napping Leroy Jessop, with 3 matching-dress “ladies” in a “dream” he might be having… with caption beneath that he married his third wife when she was 15, and (had a baby soon, of course…) Now, if memory serves, I think this guy may be the one whose young “wife” was in labor so long that she should have been taken to a hospital, but “Dr.” Barlow wouldn’t do that, needless to say… and I believe that the napping one’s brother, Raymond Jessop, received a teen”bride” who was sister of the one with the dangerously long labor…

    Before you depart this charming set of concepts, friends, don’t neglect to view the photo of the kids at yfz playing on a mound of tailings at yfz, where the caption, by an adult female, says, ” The ranch is an ideal place to raise children..” I figure she just forgot to include the part about packing the boys off around age 13 for good, in many cases, and handing the girls over, sometimes by age 12, to fellows who have been rewarded with “please-take-a-number-for-your-turn-in-the-hay-with-me” status– righteous robots with mental straightjackets on, that are also anywhere from age 20 to over 60… Hey, it’s all mm-mm, flds good!


    Please buy some of this crap ! We need money !

  478. The one who was in labor for 3 days was Raymond’s teen bride. Leroy is married to her sister.

  479. Let’s not forget that Bob’s daughter was one of the underage brides. Allen Keate went to jail for marrying her and having a child, but before she was placed with Allen she was originally the bride of Leroy Steed Jeffs, brother to Warren.

    Bob needs to STFU!!!

  480. Anon@7:46, I feel for ya, but just leave already. Take your wife/wives and kids and get the hell out of dodge. No one is going to buy any of that crap when you can get it for free on the internet or from a Freedom of Information Request to one of the ones who received the nice package.


    Pilot has some new pictures of the Ranch up.

  482. New thread?

    Pilot has some new pictures of the Ranch up.
    Anonymous said this on November 15, 2011 at 9:24 PM

    Cool pictures, wonder what’s up with the simi-circular structure, perhaps it’s a backdrop for a statue? Also wonder what they are building along the public road, an area perhaps for non-FLDS trucks to drop supplies so they don’t drive into YFZ?

    The tower structure is starting to look like a lighthouse, perhaps a new watch tower to keep an eye on the “inmates” to prevent escape attempts?

  484. The plyg boys are getting attitudes & insulting here in short creek , I just got a insult yesterday from a bunch of boys here , I was told to ” go home sh*thole ” by 2 of them why ? I told them they didn’t have any manners , their mother didn’t teach them any manners , what they said was very rude & apparently they like being rude , I could have hung around & talked to their parents , I don’t think those boys would have told the truth though , to stay out of trouble with their parents they would LIE about what they said, I was near the post office & the boys were across the street , I don’t look like them , I have a mustache, hairs kinda long , not down to shoulders but longer than mens haircuts here , it looks to me like they’re starting to get an attitude problem here & teaching their boys to be insulting , etc . I remember when young boys here wouldn’t say things like that , how things & times have changed here in short creek . >>>> other-Anon

  485. That’s just shameful, other anon.

  486. Third Cousin , of course that’s shameful to us , in the plyggs mind ,the worlds going to end soon , & they will get back what is ” rightfully theirs ” so they will do what they want here & not think about the consequences . That’s why I hope the towns here break up & become like other towns with normal people & basic services , hospital , a real store , better road improvements ,etc , besides the plygs have other “places of refuges they can move to .

  487. Third Cousin , of course that’s shameful to us , in the plyggs mind ,the worlds going to end soon , & they will get back what is ” rightfully theirs ” so they will do what they want here & not think about the consequences .

    Anonymous said this on November 16, 2011 at 11:54 AM

    From a distance – just reading what you guys who are there are saying, it sounds fairly unstable there.

    Here is what I’m picking up (from your comments) about Short Creek:

    • People have lived under an extremely rigid system for years – backed up by threat of expulsion if they stepped out of line.
    • People feel they are being persecuted by “outsiders”
    • Families are under a lot of financial pressure. (How severe is that? Are people having trouble covering basic needs?)
    • Young men currently have little to look forward to in the future even if they manage to do everything right (assuming rumors are true that no one is allowed to marry).
    • There is a power-struggle over leadership

    Young men need a purpose in life. They need to have a plan for the future. Lots of young men who feel betrayed and angry – and who don’t see a future for themselves almost always means trouble.

    is it likely that families will just fade away to new places of refuge? What about angry young men who are beginning to realize they’ve been sold out for years?

    What I’m wondering is this: Is there a potential for violence here? I’m not sure what violence would accomplish -but that hasn’t stopped it from happening in the past…

  488. Jerrie , if wsj tells the sheeple to move out the other places of refuge , they will . They will do whatever wsj tells them to do , remember the SHEEPLE are brainwashed heavily , all those things I mentioned they believe & will do because the ” Prophet ” told them to . You can’t convince them wsj’s a rapist , manipulator , home wrecker , user of people & steals their hard earned money to further himself , a con man . Merrill’s not any better , it may be this way for a long time to come .

  489. agree, Jerrie. and it’s not just young men, it’s young people in general. Girls can be hellions too.

  490. PT, when’s the next trial?

  491. No trial scheduled. Wendell has a hearing on Monday to see if he will be able to withdraw his plea that he made.

  492. Merril’s been transferred to the Byrd Unit. Bring on the bald head pic.

  493. Please continue your discussion on General Discussion #67 found here:

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