General Discussion #65

Continued from General Discussion #64

R.I.P. Steve Jobs


~ by FLDS TEXAS on October 5, 2011.

421 Responses to “General Discussion #65”

  1. Just when Sprint gets the iPhone he goes and kicks the bucket.

    RIP Steve great job down here.

  2. Will he have as great a legacy as Einstein?

    Kinda sad the latter missed out on all the toys, he would have been amazed.

  3. Steve you wanted to make “a dent in the universe.” You did indeed!
    Well done… RIP.

  4. The next Einstein is that Italian guy who has made the new viable source of cheap energy. Coming soon to a small planet near you….


    about a week ago… just thought some people might be interested in this.

  6. Thanks yehaaa for bringing it over. Any chance some of your relatives might be tempted to leave?

  7. Betty, would that be celestial, teresterial or what ever the 3rd choice is?

  8. Trying to find the story behind the story is tough.

    I went looking for something about the UEP trust. A while ago Lindsay said something on her blog about the case going to Colorado. Haven’t seen anything since that post.

    Also on the table was the fact that the state of Utah was suppose to be paying Wisan and staff. Haven’t heard anything about that either.

    While Natalie Malonis was still active with the Merril Jessop case quizzing everyone about everything some things were mentioned about Meril signing off on some legal documents to his lawyer. And I think this also included Wayman (Wyman?) What ever happened with all that?

    And remember when I kept saying that they were all trying to push and shove the FLDS into the next century with the merger of properties and such?
    Check out the comments left here:

    I couldn’t figure out how to listen to the program but it sure would be interesting to hear it all at this time.

    How do you fix the Polygamy issue in Utah and Arizona? Put a different dress on it and call it good.

    If they don’t look like Polygamists maybe the whole world will stop watching.

    All the paper work that Texas sent Mark Shurtleff and he still can’t figure out if there is anything worth investigating and pressing charges.

    Where are the FEDERAL charges?


  9. (1) Celestial; (2) Terrestrial; and (3) Telestial. You’ll remember I got kicked out of the 3rd degree last spring after the rapture. No priesthood holder to pull me through the veil. Please.

  10. RIP Steve Jobs, indeed.

    I am typing on a Macbook Air. My first computer, an Apple IIe, still lives in my attic with an original Mac Plus to keep it company (not the very first one that tended towards spontaneously combustion, the second version with the working fan.)

    My first real job was providing technical support for Mac software. Talk about boring. The same few problems came up over and over. Challenges were rare and usually involved poor communication skills on the part of the caller: “Your screen is bleeding? Is there, perhaps, another way to describe the problem?” I always thought Apple should have built their marketing around that fact that while Macs were pricier on the surface, that fact that you did not then need to hire an entire IT department to support them should count in their favor.

    My kids have iPhones and iTunes gift cards circulate like viruses as gifts at teen parties. They are the preferred currency of a generation.

    iPhones may well be the irrepressible link between the most committed FLDS and the outside world. They may choose not to look at the news, but it is there at their fingertips – waiting for a weak moment.

  11. Unlike Jerrie, I have never been an Apple person. I’ve always used PCs, Dell at that and until Friday the 14th have never had an iPhone. I have had several different versions of iPod though. But I do recognize that Steve Jobs revolutionized and entire industry with his products.

  12. Walton, I’m not a Mark Shurtleff fan, but I don’t think he has received anything from Texas yet. The trials aren’t over although we might see some action next week. Wendell has until the 14th for a plea deal. He’ll have a final pretrial on the 17th. I really hope he doesn’t do a plea deal. I want to here the defense for having 33 or so wives.

  13. yehaaa

    Thanks for sharing that… This group and The Hope do more than the States gameplan – I dont know of any successes that the Safety Net has had besides a forum for decriminalization discussions.

    Its great to see people actually raise a hand to help others!

  14. hey Jerrie, I am truly sorry Steve Jobs past. No telling what else he could have done if he had lived. He was a great man.

    I work in an office with both Macs and PC’s. For several years the Mac’s were breaking down as often or more than the PC’s. And unfortunatey the MAC’s have to be sent off for repair. No unscrewing the back of them to replace a part like we can do with PC’s. I was really surprised at all the problems they had. Now they are on the latest greatest macs and they seem to be working out better. Yet, the creative guys on MACs are keeping the original packaging in case they have to send them off for repair. It cracks me up that they won’t let me throw their boxes out, yet, they claim that Mac’s are superior to the PC’s.

    RIP Steve, prayers for your family.

  15. Short Bio on Steve Jobs, wow a lot I didnt know.

  16. I especially liked that one Tweet from the above Yahoo presentation:


    And from my weird thoughts, this juxtaposition. I couldn’t help entertaining a fleeting mental comparison: the stark difference between the lives of Jobs and Jeffs … both born the same year … worlds apart.

  17. So, is it nature or nurture that makes the difference between the two? An age old question!

  18. Zedekiah Black Steed was buried today in the Crick. Lyle shut down the town for the occasion.

  19. Hope someone who lives there can come here and give us a few details.

  20. Who is Zedekiah’s mom?

  21. Christine Black.

  22. Christine Black.

    That was me.

  23. Both parents are distant cousins to me but I have never met them.

  24. A couple of posts you all might enjoy, i bet you’d be great at the Caption this! Come and give us a laugh!
    Polygamy Monopoly

    Caption This!

  25. Third Cousin you are related to everyone !

  26. Steve Jobs biological dad was Syrian.

    I think its sad he didnt make an attempt at connecting, it seemed an open door for dialog.

  27. Matt Hainline and Genevive Stubbs were found guilty by a judge in Kingman regarding the July 2010 arrest.

  28. If it’s true it will probably be overturned like the other cases. I think if I were the FLDS I would be more worried about civil rights violation charges that are pending.

  29. RICO act used in Utah to convict gang members

  30. It was great to read the article that yehaaaa gave link to, which said Holding Out Hope is getting quadruple the requests for help since W’s conviction.

    It’s truly wonderful that more people are leaving flds.

  31. Cyril Bradshaw died

    Cyril Bradshaw was born November 8, 1922 in Ogden, Utah to Charles Richards Bradshaw and Constance Annie Blanche Bitton. He was the oldest of seven children. He was an accomplished chemist, nutritionist, teacher, and student, constantly seeking to expand his knowledge in all subjects. He had great love for his family, his nation, and most of all, his God. In his early life he served five years in the military during World War II. He married Luella Cox and together they raised a beautiful, loving family. Cyril lived his life in the service of mankind and loved life to its fullest enjoying numerous family and friends. All were welcome in his home. He touched the lives of so many through teaching and sharing his love of life. Cyril passed from this existence on October 5, 2011. He is preceded in death by his parents, two siblings, his wife Luella, two of his children and many cherished loved ones. His influence, knowledge, and presence will be greatly missed. Funeral services will be held Sunday October 9, 2011 at the Centennial Park, Arizona chapel at 12:00 PM MDT. A viewing will be held Saturday October 8, 2011 at the chapel from 6:00 PM to 9:00 PM and again on Sunday October 9, 2011 from 9:30 AM to 11:30 AM.

    Arrangements are under the direction of Spilsbury Mortuary, St. George, UT. Friends and family are invited to sign his guest book at

  32. There was no mention in Cyril’s obit of his 2nd wife who left him to rejoin the FLDS.

    For those interested in genealogy, here are the names of his children listed in his wife, Luella’s, obit in 1994.

    No doubt, Third Cousin is somehow related – LOL

    Published: Monday, Sept. 26, 1994 12:00 a.m. MDT

    Ellen Luella Cox Bradshaw, age 69, died Saturday, September 24, 1994 at her home.

    She was born November 9, 1924 in Emery, Utah to A. Bryan and Trudie Beal Cox. She married Cyril Bradshaw November 10, 1943 in Salt Lake City.Survivors include husband Cyril Bradshaw, Colorado City, Arizona; children, Ellen Jessop, Hilldale, Utah; Kathleen Jessop, Colorado City, Arizona; Charlene Jessop, Hilldale; Cyril David Bradshaw, Sandy Valley, Nevada; Mark Allen Bradshaw, Humansville, Missouri; Carl Joseph Bradshaw, Elizabeth Morrison and John Alma Bradshaw, all of Salt Lake City; Linda Darger and Steven Bradshaw, both of Centennial Park, Arizona. She was also mother to Charles William Bradshaw, Centennial Park, Ariz.; James Marion Bradshaw, Salt Lake City; Judy Merlyne Bradshaw, Centennial Park, Ariz.; Michael Warren Bradshaw, Colorado City, Ariz. and numerous others. She is also survived by one sister, J. Bevelry Cox, Layton, Utah; and one brother, Donald B. Cox, Hilldale, Utah. Two children, Carol Ann Evans and Lily Miriam Bradshaw preceded her in death.

    Funeral services will be held Wednesday, September 28, 1994 at 10 a.m. MDT at the Centennial Park Chapel. Friends may call at the Centennial Park Chapel on Tuesday evening from 6 to 10 p.m. and one Wednesday morning from 8 to 9:30 a.m. prior to services. Interment in the Centennial Park Cemetery under the direction of Metcalf Mortuary.

  33. Connie Johnson is Cyril’s wife that is in the FLDS. She was married to Uncle Fred and then to Wendell.

  34. Charlene, Ellen and Kathleen Bradshaw are all in the FLDS also.

  35. WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), a current member and former Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, introduced U.S. Magistrate Judge David Nuffer, the nominee for the U.S. District Court for the District of Utah, during his confirmation hearing today. Hatch recommended President Barack Obama nominate Nuffer to the federal bench, which the President did on June 29, 2011.

    In remarks before the Judiciary Committee hearing today, Hatch said that “Judge Nuffer is widely known in Utah’s legal community, and he is just as
    widely respected.” Hatch added that Nuffer “is a lawyer and a judge of the highest caliber, and a man of the highest integrity and character.”

    Judge Nuffer was nominated for a seat that has been vacant since November 2009.

    Below are Hatch’s full remarks made during Judge Nuffer’s confirmation hearing today:

    Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to introduce to the committee U.S. Magistrate Judge David Nuffer, President Obama’s nominee to the U.S. District Court in Utah.

    After receiving his undergraduate and law degrees from Brigham Young University, Judge Nuffer spent 24 years in private legal practice. He has served for 16 years as a U.S. Magistrate Judge, half of those years part-time and half full-time. As a lawyer, he practiced both criminal prosecution and criminal defense and has tried more than 150 cases to verdict. I am not surprised that the American Bar Association unanimously gave him its highest well qualified rating.

    Judge Nuffer is widely known in Utah’s legal community, and he is just as widely respected. He has not only practiced law, but he has served the law as well as both a Commissioner and as President of the Utah State Bar. He has served on various committees and task forces of the Utah Supreme Court, and as chairman of the Utah Judicial Conduct Commission. And for more than a decade, Judge Nuffer has been adjunct professor at his law school alma mater. But his service to the law extends beyond our borders. Judge Nuffer has lectured to judges, lawyers, and law students in countries as far afield as Brazil, Egypt, and Ukraine, and serves on the board of the Leavitt Institute for International Development.

    As my colleagues know, I chair the Senate Republican High-Tech Task Force and have for many years been involved in efforts to reform the patent system. I therefore took particular notice of Judge Nuffer’s love of technology and the promise that it holds for the legal system. In one of his many articles and blog postings, he wrote: “Technology is a leveler that puts us all in touch, reduces the distance from the courthouse, and leverages our abilities.” I could not agree more. When he is confirmed, as I know he will be, Judge Nuffer will help make the law and the court system more accessible to all our citizens.

    This well-rounded picture of dedication, service, and excellence really impressed me. As I usually do when we have a judicial vacancy, I talked to lawyers and leaders in the legal community of both parties throughout Utah. The response was strong and unanimous. Judge Nuffer is a lawyer and a judge of the highest caliber, and a man of the highest integrity and character. Those are the qualities that matter most to me, and I am proud to introduce him to the committee and to recommend his swift and unanimous confirmation by the full Senate.

    From HOPE Org;

    Judge David Nuffer

    President of the Utah State Bar association and part time U.S. Magistrate, David Nuffer sits on many important and prestigeous legal panels and associations. David Nuffer is one of the most powerful men in the Utah legal profession. Among his many positions, he is City Attorney for the polygamous community of Colorado City Arizona. He has also done important work on the Hildale, UT and Colorado City AZ power generation projects. Could such close ties on the part of a Federal Judge with a group engaged in systematic sexual exploitation constitute a conflict of interest?

  36. David Nuffer and Steven E. Snow of St. George, were the attorneys for appellants Vaughn Fischer, Sharane Fischer and Katrina Stubbs when they sought to adopt Vaughn’s 3rd wife Brenda Thornton’s children after she died.

    This case ended up in the Utah Supreme Court, which reversed the District Court’s dismissal of the petitioners’ petition to adopt the Thornton children, and the Fischers were allowed to adopt these children, although the children weren’t biologically related to the Fischers.

    One of the children was named Wayne Thornton and was re-named Wayne Fischer after he was adopted by Vaughn Fischer.

    Wayne Fischer had a daughter named Brenda Lei who became one of Warren Jeffs’s “quorum of twelve” child brides.

    But the Utah Supreme Court didn’t think being raised in a polygamous family would be harmful to the Thornton children. Yeah right!

  37. More on David Nuffer and the adoption of the Thornton children by the polygamous Fischer family.

  38. Trying to figure out the kids of David Stubbs. I’m pretty sure he had 2 wives, possibly 3. The wives I have are Rebecca Carlson and Rose Pledger. Can you help match the kids with the mother:

    Suzie Gaye
    Lydia Esther
    Roberta LeAnn
    Ruth Maryette
    Beth M.
    Richard Curtis
    Skippy Joe
    Ritchie D.
    David Lawrence

    There may be more kids that aren’t listed.

  39. Good gracious the Amish are after each other now!

  40. Some of the comments attached to the Amish story that I read seem to share some of the same elements [child abuse/incest, etc] as the FLDS. It also implies that the Amish are not alllll that holy and rightous.

  41. Carlson is not her original name.

  42. I knew you’d know 3C.

  43. Looks like some Amish mothers never taught their (future “castoff”) children not to run with scissors.

    Holy cutoff hair, Batman!

  44. Let me get this straight. The court allowed people who were NOT relatives of the children to adopt rather than their blood relatives, because they were recognizing the assigned, illegal marriage of their mother as a closer relationship to the children? Wowzers.

  45. There’s a difference between recognizing someone’s right to practice their religion and redefining the next of kin relationship in family court. Where is the precedent for giving a Protestant or Catholic family adoption rights on someone else’s biological relative? It’s not just a matter of prejudice between one religion and another, it’s actually bending the law in favor of fundamentalist Mormon polygamy. No wonder they think they can get away with it; in Utah, not only do they get away with it, they are actually assisted by the government!

  46. ….and the attorney who assisted them in obtaining this “right” will shortly be approved for a federal appointment if we don’t act quickly.

  47. Here is a link to a trailer of an excellent film on Chinese polygyny : Raise the Red Lantern.

  48. Has anybody heard the latest news on the fate of base at YFZ ? Is it to be a base for metal statue or for a watchtower to keep the SHEEPLE in ? Any new information would be appreciated ……….> other-Anon

  49. I heard that Lyle confirmed there was to be a statue, though the confirmation didnt say “and yeah, its situated at YFZ in a manner that it can peek into the Temple windows”…

  50. But if its built on that base, indeed.

  51. Surely Lyle is smart enough to know that if he puts it in Short Creek he’s going to have to have it guarded 24/7

  52. Wasnt there also word that Shortcreek wasnt the place of the elect?

    I dont think they would put any statue there – only behind stockaded walls.

    Most FLDS will never see it in person.

  53. Betty, It is my understanding that teens and pre-teens have more say in their adopted family placements than do toddlers. Perhaps the children wanted to remain in the home in which they had been living for years. I know that that was the case with my neices and nephew. Their bio mom was pulled out of the mental ward to take custody of them because the mom who had raised them was polygamous. They were appointed an attorney and were eventually, after much heartache and abuse by their bio, placed with their “other mother” who had loved and nurtured them almost their entire lives.

  54. Yeah, those polygamy moms have proven to be so wonderful…

    Just hope Warren doesnt have an eye on those kids skirts!

  55. Rose Pledger is called Sally because her name is Rose LaSalle Pledger. I only know of seven children for her and I’ll send them to you PT.

  56. Rose Pledger was born Rose Colvin, she was adopted by her Uncle Harry Pledger when she was a baby. It is my understanding that she did not know he was her Uncle and not her biological father until she was an adult. None of her siblings are involved in polygamy.

  57. Stamp, they have nothing to do with Warren! You know what they say about ass uming facts.

  58. Anon

    It was a few years ago, 1991 in the FLDS (Washington County), then yes Warren or perhaps his Warren on his fathers behalf would have been cruising the skirts.

    You know the stories, right? Seen the pictures? Warren wasnt the only one abusing children, he was just the worst in a long time.

  59. I heard that Lyle confirmed there was to be a statue, though the confirmation didnt say “and yeah, its situated at YFZ in a manner that it can peek into the Temple windows”…

    Stamp said this on October 10, 2011 at 10:59 AM

    Here is a few interesting facts about the different Temples and statues.

    Did you know that St. George has the most “sealing rooms” than any other LDS Temple?


  60. Here is a photo of a different water tower in Texas.

    more located here:


    In all the photos that have been taken of the YFZ ranch lately there has been only but a few that have shown people. Out of what 400 or so people living there, we’ve only seen a few of the men working on water towers, digging, buildings.

    Maybe the women and children left? Maybe they are in Colorado or Pringle and YFZ is a Spiritual Learning Center for Males.

    The only time we’ve seen the women and children was for the staged media spots.


  61. Here’s an interesting opinion piece on subject of fundamentalist evangelicals and perceived bigotry from point of view of lapsed Catholic. With reference to “the seamy polygamy/rape trials of offshoot Mormon sect figure Warren Jeffs.”

    Based on experiences growing up in east Texas Baptists Churches would have to agree with editorial writers opinions. And yes Warren Jeffs is seamy!

  62. Ran into this again while blog jogging.

    Debbie Schlussel is a Jewish attorney who has her finger to the wire with islamics in our country and others – and sees Turleys “Sister Wives polygamy suit” as a trojan horse to backdoor muslim polygamy.

  63. The only time we’ve seen the women and children was for the staged media spots.


    Anonymous said this on October 10, 2011 at 4:30 PM

    Walton IMO they women and children are there, they just hide during day and come out at night to avoid being photographed by aircraft. No one knew there were 400 plus children there at time of raid. With rumors flying about “short creek” being abandoned by Warrenites, it’s only a matter of time before the population at YFZ grows with those left behind aligning with Willie the wannabe profit and his right hand man, Willie the Thug, or the CP/Second ward group.

  64. Stamp, monogs were doing the same thing. It’s just not as sensationalized as those incidents with polygamy originations.

  65. Anonymous at !2:41 PM. In normal circumstances, I could see your point. But I know that some women in the FLDS are placed in mental institutions not because they are mentally ill, but because they flaunt the FLDS leadership. Also, if the children were placed with their new “father”, then many of them have indeed known other homes. And on what planet does a lawyer fight for custody rights of the children for free? Isn’t it also possible that their mother had her character assassinated, did not have the money to fight a lawyer who was being paid for by a polygamist group and the children went back to the family they had been assigned to for fear of being damned, not because it was really in their best interest to cut off contact with their biological mother? I can see it both ways; maybe the mother was abusive and mentally ill. Maybe she was just an apostate who was in fact the victim in this situation. But ultimately, I cannot approve of any system where children are taken from their biological father and assigned to another father, told to forget their real father’s name, all on the whim of a religious leader who had a bad dream about their real father. Any thing that happens after that is not fair to the kids.

  66. Anon at 4:46PM

    Bull hockey. Tell me of a monogamous church where they assign women and children to men, move them around at the will of one man, marry off the children at 12 and preach blood atonement? I agree that monogamist people abuse children. But not whole communities of them in a systematic fashion. Nope, the fruits of fundamental Mormonism are quite unique.

  67. Coercive marriages now will not be permitted among British immigrants. Now if we could only enact legislation of this type in Utah for American citizens…

  68. So is Rebecca Colvin Rose’s sister?

  69. If the rumors are true & ” Short Creek is abandoned by the ” Warrenites” & they depart eventually, I hope William wannabe profit & thugly Willie have the good sense not assume control over the town, that would be a disaster ! Just let the town be more open, & let the non-flds have some breathing room ! The CPark residents should stay where they are, & they can run their community like they want. Allow CCA/Hildale the freedom to be part of America & not run by something akin to the Taliban ! > other-Anon <

  70. I agree with you other-Anon. I do think that William E. has encouraged freedom and to that end has suggested that the children be put into public school. Most have enrolled their kids in El Cap and/or Masada Charter School, which from looking at their website appears to go through the 9th grade. Not sure if they graduate then or if it will gradually move up to have grades 10, 11 and 12.

  71.,0,1707460.story Polygamous community opens its doors

    If a person checks out the websites of the schools you will see the many members/teachers from these shcools being from CPark. They are CPark.

    Many of the people that have talked about the abuses of Polygamy weren’t just talking about the abuses under Warren Jeffs. They go way back. Had some of those members now of CPark not been kicked out they would have been very much a part of the YFZ move. Everything was fine in their eyes until Warren kicked them out.

    So now they change the dress style. They don’t look like Polygamists. Does that make everything better?

    A choice between bad and not so bad?

    one guy got busted for growing pot. Had his kids out picking the buds. another guy got busted for having plants in his house and his kid was taken away from him. Is one any better than the other?

    How is it that in any other school system that those openly breaking the laws would be fired on the spot and possibly thrown in jail.

    Tell me how any of this makes sense?

    I hope they NEVER legalize polygamy and I hope they don’t decriminalize it. They should put everything on hold and do the studies for another 5 years and then maybe talk about it. Until then enforce the laws already on the books.


  72. Youth Polygamy Interview 1

    Q. How old are you?
    A. 16
    Q. Who do you want to marry someday?
    A. Whoever the priestholder places me with.


  73. Yeah, she knows whats in store if she doesn’t submit to what those priesthoodlums tell her…

  74. The guy says “you then chose if you want to enter into that covenant”. He does not go into the consequences of saying no.

  75. All of those involved know that there are dire consequences if you don’t follow the edict of the priesthood/profit.

  76. I hear ya Walton, but unfortunately, a choice between bad and not so bad may be all there is for many of the sheeple right now. In that case, I’d vote for not so bad.

  77. Award-Winning 16×9 Launches New Season With An In-Depth Look Into Bountiful, Canada’s Most Famous Polygamist Community

    New Season of Investigative Journalism Kicks Off This Saturday, October 15 with Unprecedented Access into the B.C. Congregation at Odds with Canadian Laws

    Attention Editors: For Complete Program Information and Photos Visit:

    read more:×9-launches-new-season-with-an-in-depth-look-into-bountiful-canada-s-most-famous-polygamist-community

  78. I agree 3C, in the choice of Lyle vs. William E., I’d go with William E. He is more of an unknown, but we know Lyle is bad news. The fact that William E. is advocating education seems to be a hopeful sign.

  79. The Spectrum has shared one of their stories today.

    A little info about the Safety net.

    The Safety net was started in 2003 with a starting fund of $700,000 plus dollars (not including all the other programs that were and are already available for everyone.)

    Over the years the funding was cut and if my memory serves me right the funding now stands around 350.000 or so. (not including all other programs that were and are available for everyone)

    I found one article that stated 557 people were helped in the year 2008 between the months of Oct. and Dec.

    I found another article dated 2010 that stated to date they have helped 1300 people.

    Now in this article states that he had ran away at age 13 and had lived in different states coming back to the St. George area. He is now 17.

    Where was the Safety Net? Did anyone report him as a runaway? Why not? and where were the parents?

    I don’t understand how this whole thing is working. If the Safety Net has made people like Brenda and others feel so uncomfortable just going to a meeting how does the Safety Net help?

    Concerning Willie the thug being a good influence etc. How do you suppose those kids feel about saying no to the likes of Willie after knowing what he did to their families and killing their dogs?

    And the whole thing with Willie E. – wasn’t he one of the guys that took Uncle Fred out of his home never leaving a message for his loved ones?
    I wouldn’t trust him with my cattle let alone my kids. jmo


  80. Walton, is that funding which you mentioned provided annually – or is that the amount that is left of the 750,000 dollars they started out with ?

  81. Coercive marriages now will not be permitted among British immigrants…

    Born in Brooklyn said this on October 10, 2011 at 6:05 PM

    Fascinating! It hadn’t really occurred to me that forced or coerced marriages are not explicitly illegal in this country! Why not? That seems like such an obvious issue to address. You do have to define “coercive”. Is a selfish, manipulative mom who stops speaking to her daughter because she won’t marry the man of “mom’s choice” a criminal? Maybe not -especially if the if the mother has no other leverage. The kind of total communal shunning practiced by the FLDS should count, however. Relocation to unpleasant living/working conditions counts. Loss of financial support counts. Application of any type of leverage over a person’s living situation counts.

    I also think any church leader who threatens a parishioner with loss of salvation over rejection of a marriage partner should be prosecuted. That is a true abuse of power. In fact, it should be illegal for anyone to assume control over marriage assignments. That should be legally left up to the individuals involved and no one else. What a concept!

    I’m not sure I agree with concerns that making forced marriage illegal would discourage people from coming forward for help. It might at first, but after a few people were prosecuted, I think you’d see a lot less of that behavior.

    Can an abusive system like the FLDS survive if leaders can’t assign brides or force girls to marry? It would sure give girls who wanted to leave a lot more leverage – if they could give evidence that they were being illegally coerced to marry.

    You will always find people who don’t want to mess with “consensual” relationships – but I think you could generate a lot of support for the idea of outlawing coerced marriage! That could be a huge step forward.


    Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:

    (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

    Free and Full. If you apply pressure to obtain “full” consent, you do not have “free” consent.

  83. Amen Jerrie, coercion isn’t consent.

  84. Then there is the significant problem of the first wife in a polygamous marriage not being consulted about her husband’s choice of secondary “wives.” This is a form of coercion which is commonly observed in Muslim polygyny and Mormon fundamentalism as well.

  85. BiB the original $700,000 for the Safety Net Committee was a US Dept. of Justice VAWA grant awarded to the Utah AG’s office to fund a Washington County Sheriff’s Deputy to be based in Hildale, a vehicle for this WCSO deputy, a Safety Net coordinator, a Safety Net case manager, security upgrades for the DV shelter in St. George, some educational money for training seminars. Of the $700,000, most of it went to pay salaries, leaving only 10% to spend on victim assistance, such as emergency transportation and housing, and some money for rent deposits.

    After the DOJ grant was spent, the Utah legislature agreed to fund $300,000 to continue the Safety Net program. It was a 2-year commitment, running through June 2009. Since they are still in existence, I guess the Utah legislature voted to extend the Safety Net’s funding.

    However, after the Utah Legislature took over the funding, there was NO money for actual victim assistance – it is all for salaries and training seminars for the service providers. They recently hired a 3rd person to run the committee, so now another salary, but no money to actually help anyone.

  86. One of Warren’s wives bought a clue.

  87. Anyone local know who it is? Bless her, hope she finds a peaceful life and happiness.

  88. May she be just the first, of many, to flee and seek help! Interesting about the ‘standoff’. I take that to mean the unscrupulous FLDS police stood between the victim and the REAL police who came to safely get her out!

  89. BiB – Here are a couple of articles: written in March of 08 :

    State lawmakers have approved more than $300,000 to fund support services for people grappling with abuse and neglect in polygamous communities

    In Sept. 08 this was posted:

    They cut 146,000 from the 306,900.

    That leaves 160,000 for the Safety Net to get advice from the professionals that they say need trainging so that they understand the inner workings of Polygamy. It’s been 8 years already. Why is Mary B and Ann Wild training anyone at this point? They’ve already trained those who should be doing their own training. imo

    and according to this last live stream that was made public but not so public some things really do appear as if they are pushing the whole decriminalization party.

    Paul Murphy is the guy who set up the cameras etc. What they need is a journalist there just because it would be the right thing to do.

    Even if they cut that 160,000 and use half for enforcing the laws, or to help investigate other crimes they might be able to settle some of this stuff.

    There was no reason for that Roundy kid to be on the streets at age 13 and living in 3 or 4 different states. How many more are there?

    BiB- I just know you can figure this one out. Explain how this can continue to go on like this? I honeslty don’t get it.

  90. I take that to mean the unscrupulous FLDS police stood between the victim and the REAL police who came to safely get her out!

    mc1199 said this on October 11, 2011 at 7:37 PM

    It does sound that way from the report. If that is true, I wonder if those involved – who were attempting to keep her from “escaping” will be prosecuted.

    Is there support in Utah for allowing religious groups to practice their faith by holding adults against their will?

    Is there concern that moving against FLDS enforcers might discourage said enforcers from cooperating with police in the future?

    Will anyone express concern that local authorities were part of the power structure the woman had to get past to escape?

    I’m just wondering what sort of thinking might go into letting actions that would result in serious charges anywhere else in the US, slide yet again….

  91. If she is not a minor, what the !@#$^&* are the cops doing getting involved?

  92. If she is not a minor, what the !@#$^&* are the cops doing getting involved?

    cement said this on October 11, 2011 at 8:09 PM

    Because the “short creek” cops are corrupt and are the enforcers for the Warranite faction. It took real cops to solve the problem. Wonder why the real cops didn’t arrest ole Willie the Thug if there is an arrest warrant out for him?

  93. I knew that. It’s called a rhetorical question.

  94. So Willie owns a business that wasn’t tied into the bankroll of Warren? How does that work? And didn’t Willie say he lost everythig when he got kicked out?

    A major man hunt? For who?

    BiB- Here is another article. I am not the only one that has questioned this whole set up.

  95. From what I was told Willie refused to give his business to Lyle. He still has the building, but 90% of his employees no longer work for him and I’ve been told that the building was broken in to and all the computer and equipment inside was taken.

  96. Willie had a computer business? lol Now, I understand.

    Selling computers and equip. in an area that banned internet. 90% of his employees? running a business with computers? hmmm wonder what kind of work he was into.

    Here is the web page for Washington County Sheriff :

    nothing being reported concerning any man hunt.


  97. No, he had computers in his business. His business is an excavating business.

  98. Without a backhoe this thing just gets deeper and deeper.

    Even bad men could have good employees. I feel for those that have lost their jobs.

    But maybe they got hired on by another company. Sounds like there is all kinds of building going on despite the “crunch” felt by so many places.

    Thanks Proud Texan

  99. Willie didn’t fire them, Lyle demanded that they quit working for Willie.

  100. Then again, Willie could show just whose side he is really on and hire some out of work non FLDS living in town. Just a thought! Oh, wait….he’d have to actually pay them! Well, so much for that idea!

  101. Walton, the imagery your prose evokes is a light in my life. Seriously.

  102. bolting wife story in SLT

  103. And this from KCSG television:

    “Allegations of the 25-year-old woman being held against her will is under investigation by the Washington County Attorney.

    I hope some serious charges / arrests come out of this.

    ( I wonder who the heck they’ve hired to cook up misspelled headlines on their website. Gah! )

  104. EJay, that would be the typical, local St. George half-wits. Happens all the time. Utah… Stupid Elevated.

  105. The woman is 25. Warren has been in jail since 2006. She ran away from her parents home to the business of Willie Jessop claiming she had been drugged.

    Who was keeping her drugged? And did they take her to a hospital for a blood test?

    A man hunt for who?

    Willie couldn’t just give her a ride to Washington County?

    A call was made to the local LE and then one to the Washinton county for a request to “keep peace” ?

    And despite all the questionable motives concerning the local police Washington County didn’t issue any warrants. Didn’t issue any arrests nor warnings.

    This smells like someone is cooking some cabbage. Can’t see it. But the aroma lingers. jmo

  106. Not only is it not clear who was being hunted, it’s also not clear who the hunters were. I can picture the corrupt local cops hunting for some man the same age as the woman who talked to her or kissed her or agreed to help her leave. I can also picture the real cops looking for her father, who is probably the one responsible for keeping her imprisoned on Warren’s orders. Or there could be explanations we are unlikely to imagine. I’m glad that they are protecting her privacy.

  107. It’s also possible that the “man” hunt is not really looking for a man.

  108. I remember reading the story of a Kingston woman who escaped in middle of night with help from a co-worker and her boyfriend. The other family members living in the same apartment complex had her surrounded and refusing to let her go. The boyfriend of the co-worker had the where-with-all to call the SLC police. Police told them all they could not stop her from leaving and escorted her and her kids out of town. She said later that it would have never occurred to her that she, as an adult, actually had rights and police were there to protect her rights.

    getting the corrupt out of the local LE in the creek is key to real change. The pringle and YFZ guard houses and gates really are a problem.

  109. The FLDS have held people captive for so long, in mind, body and spirit, they dont realize its wrong.

    And LE doesnt even have a clue.

  110. Yes, it’s obvious that those guard houses, along with security cameras pointed inward towards the compound, are for keeping the women in, not keeping the public out.

  111. “Free to leave” and “free agency,” my Aunt Fanny.

    I have a message for Warren Jeffs:

    Stuff your “free agency” bs somewhere.

    Up somewhere or down your feeding tube where you can choke on it.

    Makes no difference to me which one.

    Or save it for the Appeals Courts.

    No doubt they enjoying some good laughs.

  112. he he

    At least Warren is getting a taste of his own medicine, kept in a house of hiding and forced to keep sweet and all…

  113. Amen twist!!!

  114. And here is what Ben Winslow has to say:,0,5918210.story

    Be sure to check the video. He talks a little bit about the Safety Net as well. Putting the drama aside listen to the facts that Ben shares about the Safety Net.


  115. BiB – Here is that link I forgot to add in a previous post. More on the Safety Net

    “If, in fact, it’s going to be strictly for the polygamous situation, they’re going to have a higher burden of proof,” Valentine said Thursday. “If it is for a … broader, general population, they will have a very favorable outcome.”



    Aug. 2010

    Some who call just want to work out their marriage problems like any monogamous couple and are not seeking to leave their plural families or their communities. That’s why the Safety Net is offering support groups and marriage counseling for husbands and wives — and wives. Unique issues include sister-wives getting along, communicating and dealing with new people who come into the family.

    I wonder if the parents of that young Roundy boy who ran away at age 13 and lived in different states went to “family counseling”?

    Home schooling inspectors are where?


  117. Even in good economic times, most school districts have a very limited staff to deal with home schooling compliance. I know for sure that my county pretty much ignores you once you qualify to start with – no follow up, no visit to the house, nothing. All we had to do was fill out the forms and buy an accredited on line schooling package and that was the last we heard from them. I imagine that with tight school budget these days there is even less. On top of that it varies quite a bit from one state to the next. I understand in Texas that if a parent says they don’t want their child in public schools, that’s the end of it. No questions asked after that.

  118. Regarding David Nuffer’s pending appointment.

    I am the aunt who filed to adopt my nephews and nieces. You can’t even imagine how appalled and disgusted and heartbroken we are to know that my sister’s oldest grandchild (Brenda Lei Fischer) was handed over to Warren Jeffs at the age of 12 to be molested in the name of religion in his “holy” temple. The blame for this falls squarely on the attorneys (Steven Snow and David Neffer) who took money (and lots of it) to condemn my sister’s children to the lifestyle of the FLDS. Blame also lays with Utah Social Services who aided and abetted the abuse of many FLDS over the decades. David Nuffer should be deeply and transparently ashamed of his part in this debacle, and his support of the FLDS should preclude him from ever serving in a public office. Facilitating child abuse and molestation are the vilest deeds that mankind perpetuates against others, especially our innocent and defenseless children. Janet Johanson

  119. Janet you were in my thoughts when I was reading about all that stuff with Nuffer.

    I’ve read your posts over the years and I think at one time there was a blog.

    I don’t know if you know Rebecca Kimble or not but you should get a hold of her and explain all this. Rebecca is a good person who is trying to share the many stories of those who have been abused by the practices and abused by the system.

    From what I’ve read about your sister she wanted a good life for her children and she wanted safety. Please, please keep speaking out.


  120. Hi Walton, thanks for your kind thoughts and suggestion. How would I contact Rebecca Kimble?

  121. on this situation with Warren’s wife leaving, I hope that will wake people up. I really do. I hope the FLDS can fall apart as quickly as possible and separate the die-hards from the victims of the system. My only concern is that lots of people will be collateral damage. especially with the UEP situation.

    and, unrelated shameless self-promotion. new post up on my blog:

  122. Janet, that is utterly heartbreaking. It is very encouraging that information might finally be trickling in about the truth of Warren Jeffs.

  123. Thanks for sharing your story, Janet.

  124. Here is a website :

    There is a contact tab located in the Welcome room per se.

    She has some videos on youtube and from what I understand she does some radio programs.

    I don’t know that the Utah media would cover it much due to the subject at hand and those involved but it is a story that needs to be looked at by many and it needs to be told. imo

    Kathy Vine at Texas monthly is another avenue.
    Kathy or Randy Mankin at Eldorado success
    Daphne Bramham

    My computer isn’t the safest since I started following these stories, so I try to say everything I have to say on a few message boards. Can’t mistake my posts for anyone elses as I am terrible at spelling and always sign my name Walton.

    Please let me know if there is anything I can do.

  125. Sixty years ago Marion George Romney, dad of Mitt, became an LDS Church Apostle.

  126. Sixty years ago Marion George Romney, dad of Mitt, became an LDS Church Apostle.

    Third Cousin said this on October 12, 2011 at 2:55 PM

    So Romney’s dad was a member of the clergy of the LDS Church, so what?

    A bit off topic on subject of FLDS and their crimes IMO. But if one wants a political discussion, the LA Times had this to say on subject of Romney:,0,1860438.story

    As a Texan, I lean towards Gov. Perry, but if Perry’s campaign falters, Romney would be my second choice.

  127. The Romneys are of interest to me because they descend from the polygamist mormon colonies in Mexico, as many of my family members are. Many of those folks married into the FLDS, AUB, and LeBaron groups.

  128. Correction: Mitt Romney’s father was George Wilcken Romney, not Marion George Romney. George W Romney was a regional representative in the LDS church, That is a lay position and people seving in that capacity are unpaid and live in their local area rather than in SLC.

    Returning to private life, Romney advocated volunteerism and public service, and served as a regional representative of the Twelve within his church.

  129. Janet, it is not too late. Nuffer has not yet been confirmed by the Senate, the hearing is tomorrow.
    Contact the Senate Judiciary Committee or your senator’s office in Washington to make your feelings known.

  130. Rebecca Kimbel’s channel can be found easily on youtube, and she can be messaged easily there also. She just has “Rebecca Kimbel” as her channel name. She “subscribed” to my channel after I subscribed to hers a few weeks ago. I had not known that she was on youtube before that. I had first seen RK on Shield and Refuge with Doris Hanson earlier this year. Both Doris and Rebecca are powerhouse gals when dealing with opposition to polygamy.
    God bless you, Janet Johanson. It’s realy an event, to hear words from a real person like you, with the facts from flds experience, interaction, etc. even though it is hard to hear about your granddaughter. “You go girl,” as they say. You have much moral support. I bet your granddaughter is going to make it through because of people like you.

    I saw Kdee Ignatin’s email about David Nuffer today in regular email and called all the legislators on her action list about Nuffer. Wish I had known much sooner about the guy.

  131. In real time and in a serious moment the Romney history has a VERY interesting role in the future if elected President. Romney imo is a spinner, Says what he thinks people want to hear or if cornered stops talking and takes the next question. And I am not even talking about his religion or his history at this poiint.

    But the court jester had this to say when asked about polygamy in his family history. If the guy was on top of it, he would have known this comment would hit some sore spots.

    Romney has joked about polygamy, saying in various settings that to him, “marriage is between a man and a woman … and a woman and a woman.” But in serious moments he has called the practice “bizarre” and noted his church excommunicates those who engage in it.,2933,254362,00.html


  132. Gosh, chemist, how embarrassing! Even my own genealogy database lists Mitt’s father as George Wilcken Romney. Sorry for the bad info and thanks for the correction.

    And sorry to all if i was off topic.

  133. Thank you, Janet.

  134. 3C, you’re fine talking about Romney, his family has ties to polygamy.

  135. This is encouraging news:,0,6819867.story

  136. From today’s Spectrum newspaper:

    FLDS victim, others to speak about domestic violence

    Nur Kausar

    “ST. GEORGE – In honor of Domestic Violence Awareness Month, the Washington County Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault Coalition is holding its annual awards ceremony and candlelight vigil tonight at Town Square behind the carousel.

    The event kicked off at 6 p.m. and will continue until 9 p.m. with musical and dance numbers, awards for community members who have made it their mission to end domestic violence and speeches from victims.

    One guest speaker is Elissa Black, who was reportedly forced to marry a cousin by Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints leader Warren Jeffs when she was 14 years old.

    Black sued Jeffs in Utah in 2007, and has since written a book about her experiences in the polygamous sect, which she left.

    Another speaker is Michelle Patterson, an employee of the Utah Division of Child and Family Services, who will share her own story of a devastating act of domestic violence that affected her family.

    The candlelight vigil will take place at 8:30 p.m.”

    WTF is Elissa Black? Do you think this guy meant Elissa Wall or Elissa Barlow (married name)? Anything is possible in St. George, where the “TV station” put polygOmist in their headline yesterday. And the newspaper CHARGES for this bad reporting!

  137. Sad comparison to the news above is that Kansas city is decriminalizing domestic abuse

  138. Unfortunately the newspaper got Elissa’s name wrong.

  139. Ode to Warren Jeffs

    “Here’s your sign”

  140. Oh all right Stamp, I was initially skeptical but it turned out pretty funny, especially since I’m such a fan of Tritt.

  141. In reference to Kansas City….on the one hand, you can get arrested for sitting on your own back porch smoking a joint, but you can get away with beating up your wife. If you steal or destroy any piece of property, it’s not a misdemeanor, it’s a felony. Am I the only one who thinks this is a very distorted sense of what is right and wrong? I would put violence of ANY kind as more serious than violation of property rights, and would not care at all if someone wants to use pot, a substance that will grow like a weed in your back yard and which has a very low incidence of fostering crime. It’s even worse to me, because domestic violence is by far an act perpetrated on women, not men.

    I also have a pet peeve with the phrase “I can’t afford it” from a person and “we can’t afford it” from a government. Because it’s BS. You are affording other things. What you really mean is “I don’t think this is important relative to my other expenses” When you invite a friend to share a beach house with you and they say “I can’t afford it” and then they take a cruise to the Bahamas with their spouse’s best friend, that’s a pretty clear statement that they want to spend that time and money but not with you. If the government is pursing car theft, but is ignoring beating women, that’s a strong statement that they value their pick up trucks more than human suffering. I bet you could find really trivial things that Kansas City is still able to pay for other than domestic violence calls.

  142. Gotta agree!

    Kansas City:

    “Here’s Your Sign”

  143. Betty Betty bo Betty!
    Banana fanna fo Fetty!
    Fe fi mo Metty!
    (snapping fingers and toe-tapping to the tune!)

    Well said!

  144. And it’s not just prosecuting crimes. The number one way a woman ends up in a (non profit, non government paid for) domestic violence shelter is that she CALLS A COP and the cop talks her into going there, makes the call, gets the hot line to assign her a shelter and then drives her there. Women will die because of this.

  145. my bad it is topeka, not kansas city

    Betty’s comments all apply, though…. it is a supposedly economic decision

  146. They should publish a study produced by emergency room physicians and mental health case workers on the effect of this legislation on emergency room visits and mental health visits for domestic violence. In fact, I will do a literature search to see if such data already exists.

  147. A quick review of the literature indicates that there is no published study on the topic. My prediction : domestic violence will increase, and victims will be even more reluctant to report abuse to authorities. A very bad decision and a set back for women’s rights.

  148. I am a serial lurker here on this blog but I had to post now when I saw the headlines in the news that one of WSJ’s wives has fled Colorado City. Who is it? Does anyone know her?


    My reading of this article is that no one is advocating for domestic violence to NOT be a crime or enforced. It was all a political gimmick using a very serioius issue as the pawn between a county and city within the county.

  150. posted on twitter this afternoon:

    La_Huesera La Vaughn
    Escaping #WarrenJeffs: One of the #polygamist’s many, many wives flees #FLDS compound leaving shoes & family behind.
    29 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply »

    lwhitehurst Lindsay Whitehurst
    Polygamous sect man still fighting Texas search warrant on appeal | The Salt Lake Tribune via @sltrib #FLDS
    44 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply »

    fox13now FOX 13 NOW
    With #Jeffs in prison, non-profits see small exodus from #FLDS faith.@BenWinslow reports:
    22 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply »

    waller_matthew Matthew Waller
    A wife of #WarrenJeffs seems to be trying to leave an #FLDS community. @lwhitehurst
    22 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply »

    Katy_Vine Katy Vine
    via @fox13now: One assistance org says # of #FLDS leaving, looking for help in Utah, quadrupled in past 2 months. Whole families leaving.
    12 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply »

    Only1Rozita Rozita Swinton
    Its nice to see another woman reaching out for help in the FLDS! There is HOPE #Flds #warrenjeffs #cult #polygamy
    11 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply »

    fox13now FOX 13 NOW
    One of Warren #Jeffs’ wives leaves, is sheltered by law enforcement.@BenWinslow reports: #FLDS #Polygamy
    11 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply »

    polymath22 polymath22
    @ .@delibernation mormons aren’t *real* christians. mormonism is a cult. #WarrenJeffs #RobertCrossfield #FLDS #LDS #px #wwjd #xian #opwwjd
    10 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply »

    UCarmichael Ursula Carmichael
    “Stolen Innocence” is a great book…Warren Jeffs is a disgusting individual. #FLDS #Brainwashing
    10 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply »

    Katy_Vine Katy Vine
    Nice @mikewatkiss interview with Mohave County investigator Gary Engels. #warrenjeffs #flds
    10 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply »

    polyamorie Pieter Schultz
    Account of Warren Jeffs’ fanaticism a riveting read [book review] / Ben McNitt [US; Tucson Sentinel; #flds #rape]
    10 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply »

    Rebecca1nAZ Rebecca Fountain
    Sect of @FLDS in Colorado City AZmilks $20-$30million dollars a yr from the State of Arizona recieving WELFARE Benefits…#FLDS is a CULT!
    9 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply »

    Rebecca1nAZ Rebecca Fountain
    Puttin Warren Jeffs n prison was a START,HIS BROTHER NOW LEADING #FLDS…MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE !!! LDS just exileing #FLDS just NOT ENOUGH
    9 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply »

    Meg_Pieniazek Meghan Pieniazek
    Watching #sisterwives .. So is Their Independent Fundamentalist #polygamy super different for the #FLDS ? or super similar.
    9 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply »

    pookerella Terry Day
    The #FLDS of the Jeffries family, which IS a cult, is not mainstream #Mormon, just like Rev. Jim Jones was not mainstream Baptist. #Jeffress
    8 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply

  151. Hi Rebecca. The Warren wife experts are being pretty tight lipped about this, which is their right I suppose. Somewhere around here I think someone posted a list of their names and ages at the time of their marriage date or something along those lines. If you find it, you can at least narrowed it down to a few current 25 year olds and let us know. I’d do it myself, but I feel content to wait until she cashes in and writes her inevitable book. In the mean time, here’s hoping it’s ol’ Dental Floss C-Section, whoever she was.

  152. Who in the world is Dental Floss C-Section?

  153. 🙂 Funny thing about cooking cabbage in closed quarters is that the stink will linger for days unless a person opens the windows or doors.

    Sometimes a person can use those air freshners but then you have the smell of cooked cabbage and “fresh linen” or “country fresh” mixed in. Not so good. once the spray settles you still have the cooked cabbage.

    I’ll open the window a little. 🙂 Best way to get it all out is if others also open up.

    There was no stand off.
    There was no man hunt.

    There was apparently a woman aged 25 who was escorted to a shelter. the rest of the story should show up in police reports and statements made to the police. Followed thru with arrest warrants and charges made if there were any laws broken. Something tells me that having to work around all those books being stored at the LE center might make moving around in the office a little bit difficult.

    I am curious as to the stories coming out about all the people leaving the FLDS. Who is moving in? What is happening to the empty houses? Maybe Brent Hunsaker could take his camera crew out there and do a one on one with Bruce Wisan and fill us in.

    And what about the kids? Are there any more kids that have run away and are missing from the households? Does anyone really know?

  154. I don’t think it was all for show Walton. I have been told that Lyle has sent the woman’s brothers to the Washington County authorities to accuse Willie of kidnapping the woman from her father’s house. They really don’t want her to tell what went on inside Warren’s households.

    Imagine if she was at the ranch and can tell that the whole crying mothers saga was a total staged job.

  155. Here’s an article that speaks the truth IMO on the escaping ex-Warren “wife”. I must agree with the central theme of the article, don’t trust Willie the Thug!

  156. In Escape Carolyn writes about Warren giving one of his 15 year old wives some sort of birth related surgical procedure and sewing it up with floss.

  157. I’m not sure who that is, I’ll have to try to find out. I don’t remember reading it.

  158. The article written by Torie Bosch says it better than I’ve seen in a long time. Good article.

    — Not all for show? Did it cross anyone elses mind that Wonder Willie could have avoided all kinds of issues if he would have offered her a ride to the shelter himself? or had one of his wives take her?

    or she could have hopped in the pickup with Issac and he could have taken her.

    In one of the articles floating around out there is stated that she had not yet given a report to the police. But that she was getting counseling etc. Hmmm

    I’ve seen police going into ER rooms to get info for car accidents. Someone claiming that they’ve been held hostage and or drugged would imo be a safety hazzard for those in the community or possibly the others living in that home. Red Flag Red Flag And no statement?

    And Lyle sending out her brothers to talk to the police about Willie kidnapping? Wasnt’ this scene done not to long ago with one of the Willies wives being kicked out of a home that wasn’t her home? And didn’t they have a warrant out for Lyle at that time? or was it Willie for trespassing?

    But I am going to put this story on a shelf until they “further investigate” and then investigate the investigators.

    How is the State of Utah doing with that check for Bruce Wisan? has anyone noticed any land sales etc. in the area? any properties being picked up for back taxes?


  159. Someone brought this link over:×9-launches-new-season-with-an-in-depth-look-into-bountiful-canada-s-most-famous-polygamist-community

    I looked but I can’t find any way in to the program. It airs on the 15th. I want to see this. Help?

  160. Walton, it’s a TV show produced in Canada; about the polygamous sect in Bountiful, Canada; and apparently televised in Canada. If you want to view it, you probably have to go visit Canada.

  161. Walton, where is the report that “she was getting counseling”? I missed that report and want to read it. Thanks.

  162. And Lyle sending out her brothers to talk to the police about Willie kidnapping? Wasnt’ this scene done not to long ago with one of the Willies wives being kicked out of a home that wasn’t her home? And didn’t they have a warrant out for Lyle at that time? or was it Willie for trespassing?


    Anonymous said this on October 13, 2011 at 9:33 PM

    Walton, you STILL need to get your Willies straight!

    In addition to your false allusion about Lyle having a warrant out for him (we could only wish). Or there being any warrant for either Willie for trespassing.

    Good grief!

  163. Keeping our Willies straight is a full time job, especially when the media can’t do so, even recently.

  164. Counseling story:


  165. Walton, you STILL need to get your Willies straight!

    In addition to your false allusion about Lyle having a warrant out for him (we could only wish). Or there being any warrant for either Willie for trespassing.

    Good grief!

    Anonymous said this on October 13, 2011 at 11:54 PM

    Pick a Willie. Pick a story. Pick a Willie and a story. But don’t be picking on me because all these Willie stories have a pattern and are sounding very much alike.

    Things were a lot simpler when Wally was the lawyer for Warren when Willie was the Walkin talkin thug. The other Willie was missing only to have his mug shot shown for the last couple of years.

    signed Bad Willie Watcher Walton

  166. Walton, it’s a TV show produced in Canada; about the polygamous sect in Bountiful, Canada; and apparently televised in Canada. If you want to view it, you probably have to go visit Canada.

    Anonymous said this on October 13, 2011 at 11:41 PM

    I will somehow find a way. Thanks.

  167. I think the woman in Carolyn’s book had to have an episiotomy (have I spelt that correctly?) and then had to be sewn up with dental floss. Brutal! I wish the escaped girl all the best and hope she isn’t coerced into going back.

  168. Here’s what the British press has to say on subject of escaped bride:

    Wonder what the the ex wife who fled from the FLDS would think if she knew that her story had gained international attention?

  169. Wow on the UK article: Did WA County Detective Abbott really use the words wife X has gone “to a place of refuge?”

  170. Fiction or Fact?

    So while the outrage spread within minutes on social media, the traditional journalists didn’t see it. Take the above post from one of my FB network; he posted this on 19th May 2010. It was two days later that the BBC covered the story, revealing it to be a hoax. It does not take two days to ring the police and confirm the story, an intern can do it in 10 minutes!


  171. Yes, you spelled it correctly. It is much more likely that Warren Jeffs sutured an episiotomy than he would have sutured a C section. Please note that dental floss should not be used as suture material. Wonder if he used mattress suture technique….


    Seek Truth and
    Report It
    Journalists should be honest, fair and courageous in gathering, reporting and interpreting information.

    Lots more at link.

    What happens when people keep getting half butted ( I had a different word in mind but used this one instead) stories with a grain of truth to them? Most people quit using them as a source for info.

    Reading and watching the news lately is almost as entertaining as watching some of these dumb me down reality shows.

    So what gives? People in a hurry? People trying to get the scoop? People overworked and underpaid? People that don’t give a rats behind?

    I guess it must be what sells. I am not buying it.

    Not all journalists have stooped to this low level. But those that are still displaying their code of ethic in their writings can at least stand on higher ground with their fan base. jmo


  173. The fleeing wife story is being widely reported now. There seems to be a lot of interest. The story itself may not go anywhere if the woman involved simply wants to get away peacefully on her own. Not everyone is going to be an Elissa Walls. Even so, it is an opportunity to speak up for justice. It bothers me to see so many dismissive comments about “those brainwashed idiots” referring to FLDS members in general.

    If you give people access to justice, legal protection from abuse, etc. – all the things they are entitled to as American citizens, you might see a different result! I’ve left multiple comments arguing for prioritizing the rule of law over respect for the religious rights of the FLDS leaders to illegally control the lives of members.

    Now is a good time to speak up – respectfully, intelligently and consistently. In my view the greatest need is to point out the breadth of control the FLDS has been allowed to exercise over their lives of members -with minimal interference from the authorities in Utah and Arizona who are supposed to protect the rights of all citizens.

    I also like the idea of advocating for new laws outlawing coerced marriages. That alone would undercut a lot of the FLDS leaders’ power. Religious freedom should not endow one man with the power to condemn another human being to an unwanted marriage for life. Very basic. Very timely. Very hard to believe it is not already a prosecutable offense.

  174. In England David Cameron is championing a law which will prohibit coercive marriage. Coercive marriages are fairly common in some immigrant groups in the US, not just among Mormon fundamentalists. Wonder why we don’t have such a law here forbidding coercive marriages.

  175. A Texan said this on October 14, 2011 at 9:54 AM: Here’s what the British press has to say on subject of escaped bride:

    Their credibility is highly suspect as far as I’m concerned.

    They captioned a photo taken from Elissa Wall’s book of Elissa and some of her step-sisters via Uncle Fred as being some of Warren’s wives.

    Freakin’ tabloid…

  176. Wonder why we don’t have such a law here forbidding coercive marriages.
    Born in Brooklyn said this on October 14, 2011 at 12:19 PM

    I’ve been wondering about that too. It was not that long ago that “shotgun weddings” were acceptable, so maybe that is why. When having a baby outside of marriage could shame a family and stigmatize the child, few people blamed families for pressuring the parents-to-be into marriage.

    Today, I can’t think of a single legitimate argument for protecting the right of a parent or anyone else to pressure someone into an unwanted marriage. There will be concerns about cultural and religious traditions – but none with legs. You will not find many Americans agreeing that a father’s belief in his traditional right to arrange an unwanted marriage for his daughter outweighs the daughter’s right to choose her own spouse.

    I think the current reason is that most people don’t see the need. It is hard to imagine that places exist in the US in which women are traded like playing cards to enhance the power and status of men in their communities.

    There is an assumption that all the women are consenting to these marriages (if they are of age). If a case can be made the real pressure is used to obtain that “consent” attitudes will likely change. There are more protections against manipulation and pressure in financial deals than there are for women pushed into unwanted marriages. Of course, the definition of a marriage has to include the “spiritual” versions that the FLDS as well as some islamic communities use to get around anti-polygamy laws.

  177. I agree, Jerrie. Most people probably don’t think coercive marriages happen. Even when confronted with the FLDS, lots of commentors seem to think the adults are freely choosing their lifestyle.

  178. And there is the issue that if asked the coerced child/woman may say they agreed for all of the same coercive reasons. So there has to be some way to independently establish coercion….

    Perhaps something about age + time involved between announcing the marriage and wedding?

  179. We all are waiting anxiously to know how things go for the young lady who is being sheltered- but everyone who has been reading about flds for any length of time should know how difficult it is for flds members to get out and make a life again.- and a wsj “wife” has to be very high “value” for pressure from those inside the group. It might be necessary for her to remain quiet for some time. She might hit bottom emotionally for awhile. I hope that being able to enjoy even a few little new chloices will help her along quickly to feel good about herself. to know she has worth, to know she has people that really do want her to make it.

    None of those girls deserves to be trapped into anything whatsoever with the kinds of men running flds. More incarcerations need to take place of men who facilitated what wsj did. I don’t for one minute believe that there were not many, many people at yfz and other locations who knew wsj was involved with girls well below 18. It’s the systematic thing of it that makes it so wrong.
    I really want to see “Naomi the scribe” found and jailed. The only thing that would excuse her in my eyes is the profound level of mental conditioning. Maybe the law will never be able to stomach the thought of punishing any flds women.

    Here, here, on the US making some kind of strong law against coercive marriage. I know there would be scoundrels trying to get around it but it should be made a reality asap anyway.

    We should all pray for the young girl when we think of this situation. There have to be a few more in wsj’s harem who want to leave. I have been hoping for years for one or more of the girls wsj took, to make it out of flds. Just to know about rights and freedoms as a US citizen, and yes, responsibilities, too.
    Willie the former spokesmodel is helping for two reasons- he is now viewed as a leader, and she would be vulnerable to seeing him as someone with power(plus he has resources)– and I am sure he is glad for any opportunity to make himself look helpful and harmless to the press and authorities, so he has less chance of being booked for misdeeds of one sort or another connected with the whole flds scene.
    We have to be patient. IMO, this is by far the biggest story dealing with flds coverage for some time. It’s about as big as the whole wsj trial. In a way, it’s bigger, because we all knew he would go to trial in TX, and that it would be a weird situation.
    It has to be handled very carefully and intelligently. If she makes it ok, it could be the needed breakthrough for many more to leave flds. Every time somebody makes it out, it’s a big victory. They are our fellow Americans who have been trapped and misinformed way too long. They have been raised to fear their own nation and they are deservng of help in conquering that mindset.

    As far as keeping a willie straight, there’s only one guy who can really do that- good old wsj himself, in his new digs!.. um, yeah, I am being “inappropriate..!” Tiskity-tisk

  180. It seems like they should have had time to convene a grand jury on Naomi by now and issue an indictment.

  181. OOOMMMGG!! (and I was raised to never say such a thing, too..) LOOK at the photo of Dan Barlow and seven “wives” on Mormon Hair (poof!)– some actually are wearing pants!! Only one looks too young for him and at least she sure doesn’t look 18 or less! (third from left)–They actually look like individuals!! What a transformation wsj made during his reign!

  182. Marriage laws are made on the state level. I’ve already made some inquiries in Washington about what would be involved. Contact your state senator and representatives and ask them to sponsor an anti-coercive marriage law in your state. Next try to develop support for the idea by talking other in community, using social media,etc.

    If you live in a college town, see if you can get some reform-minded students to bite :). They have the time and energy to champion this if they decide to get behind it.

    The closest thing I found to a national effort was this group:

    Their focus is on immigrant women, but they might be open to expanding their efforts to include native born women who face the same issue.

    If a few states address this, others will follow. I doubt Utah will be first in line, but they won’t be the lone holdout.

  183. Polygamous sect man still fighting Texas search warrant on appeal | The Salt Lake Tribune via @sltrib #FLDS

    This was in the twitter feed. I thought it was interesting. But, it really didn’t say what Emack’s next recourse was now that the other appeal was denied or I missed it.

  184. looks like go san angelo has a better read on the subject:

    rehearing of Emack’s previously denied appeal to the Third Court of Appeals.

    rest of article gives summary of the other dirty dozen…

  185. ok, so here is a dumb question to end Friday on – and maybe I got my Willies mixed up. If the woman fleeing went to Willie Jessop business and Jessop called the police to help her – why didn’t they arrest Willie for his outstanding warrent while they were there?

  186. There is a new post up on The Polygamist’s Daughter blog :

  187. ….why didn’t they arrest Willie for his outstanding warrent while they were there?

    I’m surprised the FLDS police haven’t arrested Willie on the warrant, now that he isn’t one of the ‘faithful’ anymore. It would be one way for them to throw their weight around and, at the same time, re-enforce that no one is safe if they don’t obey the profit…or whomever is in charge this week! Just the nanner nanner nanner aspect of it…and the childish ‘tag, your it’ mindset that usually encompasses the $#@ they do.

  188. It looks like a certain “polygamy beat” reporter came onto this blog and learned about the dirty deeds of David Nuffer and the children of Brenda Thornton/Vaughn Fischer and Brenda Lei becoming one of Warren’s “quorum of twelve” child brides, and then took the exact story posted here over to her blog.

    I have no real issue with that, but you’d think she’d give credit where credit is due, instead of trying to make it look like it was her investigating and connecting the dots in this decades-old story that turned up these interesting connections.

    Oh well, consider the source – it is the Salt Lake Tribune, after all.

  189. Willie “The Thug” Jessop’s attorney told the Utah 5th District Court on September 28th that Willie was planning on settling the debt with Sam Brower within the next few days. If the debt was settled, then the arrest warrant would have been lifted.

  190. Anon @ 8:08, there are several of us who privately emailed the Trib reporter and asked her to write the story. She agreed but said she would have to do her on research on the subject and not just write what we gave her. I have to applaud her for that and really wouldn’t want her any other way. Otherwise we’d just have another Brooke.

  191. It is my understanding that the girl in question went to Thugly’s house and he wasn’t there but his wives were. The wives called Thugly who then called the Washington County Sheriff’s office. I think the wives are who took her to Thugly’s office because it is out on the highway and also would keep the problem away from the children.

  192. I figured out more about the dental floss incident. The wife was Brenda, one of Merril’s daughters. The one doing the sewing was one of Warren’s mothers, not Warren and it was following an episiotomy.

  193. Wendell decided not to take a plea deal, but apparently his pretrial has been cancelled for Monday. Not sure when it will be, but his trial is set for Nov. 14. Raymond has an hearing on his appeal scheduled for 9:00 on Wednesday the 19th and then his father’s trial is set to start in Robert Lee on Halloween.

  194. Dental floss.. episiotomy…SIGHHH…I am giving birth to a baby bird right now…and I need mental floss, when I hear what this load does to its people in medical need…Yes, I did read Escape a couple years ago, forgot most of the details already–..and I’ve read several of the other books by those who are former flds.. Only reason I haven’t read every single book on “the tribe” is ’cause I need breaks from the whole subject..Plus, I have to wait til someone has a good deal on ebay for a copy of something I am ready to deal with! (I re-sold all the plyg books I did have, on ebay, as soon as I got done with them, as I didn’t want them to gather dust and not be “good condition,” and I didn’t want to think about it all for a spell.
    After watching these things for about six and a half years, I can still come across something that will shock me.. Even if I kinda figured out something on my own, based on what flds believe, to read that certain things actually take place is a shock anyway.
    For example, I figured that it was a practice to try to conceive children inside the yfz temple, as a way of achieving special holiness or elite status or whatever.. but when I heard wsj actually recorded his “sessions” and that it involved, uh, “group
    sessionry”– I too was floored..

    you know another thing I haven’t heard more about?
    I remember Brent Jeffs saying in one interview around time of “the raid” that he knew of flds men who had deliberately broken bones of their children to teach them obedience. That was one of those “I’m floored moments” for me.
    What about those many fractures seen in x-rays with kids taken off yfz in 2008. Later it was published that the authorities attributed that to the very physically active daily life of flds children. I also recall seeing something where flds at the ranch told reporters there was a brittle bone problem in the group. And I thought, “Hmm- inbreeding fall-out again? Or flds just giving out brittle little truth-as-they-see-it fragments?” I don’t want to believe any worse about these folks than is true. I wish there was a way to really know what to believe about some things.

    Reporter John Quinones (spelling?) termed the group’s practices “bizarre” on his short report of the young lady’s escape this past week.

    Yes, “bizarre” will do pretty well, to encapsulate flds teachings and practice.

  195. What is written here stays here? Since when?

    Just to let some folks know, I personally have never written Lindsay. But I might have if I really thought it would have done some good. For 7 years I’ve been posting and sharing. I am not writing a book, screenplay or a script for any reality show. I’ve shared what I have found to bring awareness to the cause.

    If by sharing what I have found was a story that might have been otherwised missed by those who are looking for answers to somehow help end this circle of abuse I am glad.

    What people should be more concerned with are the half baked stories that have been hitting all the other medias. Last time I looked there were 238 stories about this Willie saving the girl story. Out of those 238 I could only see a small handful that appeared to have made an attempt to find out the real story.

    So what does that say? Everyone is busy and no one has time to fact check? OR is it that they media is fed a news story from a ground source and told how to run it?

    Did everyone see the new pro-polygamy spin offered by lisa ling? Remember the video about the kids from CPark? how the young girl said she would be happy with who ever the priesthood holder chose for her? Check out the new spin on the OWN network channel.

    Think they just made that up themselves? no. They most likely got the idea from reading the things here. Right or wrong?

    Think about it. Who wants the FLDS issue out of site more than any one? We are all aware of the abuses within but what about the other groups? They aren’t quite so bothersome as they dress like other folks in Utah.

    They haven’t done zip concerning ending the practice of Polygamy nor the cycle of abuse. They’ve almost encouraged it by doing nothing and promotoing shows like Sister Wives etc.

    So who has the most to gain? CPark, political leaders and the LDS. just my opinion.

    Is the Safety Net really a group to help people out of the Abusive Polygamy world? or is it a mere deprograming step into the next sect?

    Words of advice. If you don’ t want others to see what you have to say, don’t say it on the internet.

    Don’t give out your e-mail addy and don’t accept any from those you can’t talk to by phone to verify.

    And most importantly of all. Double check everything you are reading. And then some.


  196. Walton, I personally would go right ahead and say that the media HAS DEFINITELY encouraged the practice of polygamy in our nation. I always read your posts, and I would say right out that American tv producers have definitely encouraged polygamy as a lifestyle, with these crazy shows they keep coming out with. I have never and will never sit through one episode of anything on it, like Big Love, or anything else they come up with. These shows celebrate immorality, just as so many shows do these days. It is just another sign of America’s ongoing flirtation with debauchery, and I will have no part of it. I find plenty of challenge and humor elsewhere.

    I haven’t had regular tv in my house for at least five years. I watch what I wish on youtube and internet sites carrying old programming or things of interest to me, like Doris Hanson on Shield and Refuge. Ultimately, the fight against polygamy is like any other fight against evil- it is a spiritual battle at its core. For me, anything ever promoted as a salvation mechanism is error, other than recognizing Christ’s death on Calvary for the sin of humanity. (One of the biggest driving factors for me in opposing polygamy is that it is taught to thousands of young children right here in the US as a means of obeying God and obtaining salvation.) Knowing this pickles my gizzard, and keeps me going with shouting NO to this wrong lifestyle.

    I view today’s tv offerings as absolutely worthless in almost every case. The promotion of licentiousness and debauchery, supposedly just to get a laugh , or higher ratings, is obvious, and I refuse to let it in my home. America has itself to blame for this situation. One heart and one home at a time need to genuinely repent before God about sin in general. There is no other lasting way for a nation to survive and be strong than for national righteousness to return.
    One of the big reasons I steadfastly oppose polygamy is that the practitioners also hold it up as a religious practice which supposedly demonstrates their love and respect for God. – they all do it, from the Kody Brown “independent family” types, to the big organized groups like Kingstons and flds. I found a quote by Joseph Smith this past week that I hadn’t heard before- he mentioned “the mohammedans” and said he was going to do what they did. Maybe the quote was in Sheld and Refuge latest newsletter. I have to look for it in my paper stacks here. Maybe someone else knows the Joseph Smith excerpt I am taking about.
    It is so disgusting and outrageous knowing that people equate having multiple sex partners with righteousness, it motivates me to keep voicing opposition to polygamy. If this country takes any more steps toward legalizing this silly and primitive lifestyle, we will be much closer to falling to our enemies. Once again, thanks , Mr. Joseph Smith. (It amazes me that people cannot see what kind of guys Smith and B Young were, and definitely are not deserving of any kind of emulation!)

    I view polygamy as one ingredient of many dragging our nation downward. I oppose every lifestyle that I believe is hurting our nation. It doesn’t matter how politically correct something may be. I oppose it if I know it is wrong. Period. Maybe it sounds outdated and cliche, but that’s too bad- God hates sin but He loves the sinner. People like me are called this or that-o-phobe, without the critics ever knowing what I do to show love in behind-the scenes ways.

    I am just a mortal sinner myself, and I know I need Christ and His forgiveness. I do not live in a part of the US where lds is a big factor of daily life. But there are plenty of the usual lifestyles of today where I live.
    It’s all just sin in God’s eyes. Every person needs what Christ did on that cross.

    I can see the huge impact lds teachings and history have on big areas of the US. I support all efforts to teach better things in these areas, than what they’ve received as mormon strongholds.

    I do what I can to support those trying to keep the word out to polygamists- YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO SUCH THINGS TO PLEASE GOD.
    People these days are calling people like me a “hater” or “bigot” when I make a stand for old-fashioned decency. Then I just have to remember that sometimes things worth fighting for may have a cost.

    Walton, God bless you, and keep up the good posts. You do a great job.

  197. To the anon who said that they were the one who figured out the link between David Nuffer and Brenda Lei Fischer, let me tell you that you had to have gotten the information of Brenda Lei’s parentage from somewhere, and it was most likely here on this blog. This is not a closed blog. Most of those of us who post here want the information to get out to the public and be seen so others can be as horrified by the things done by the FLDS as we are.

    If you decide not to post here anymore I am sorry, but that’s totally your choice. I think you are making a mistake because the information won’t get out if it isn’t shared with the media. Would you have been as upset if the information found its way to Brent, Ben or Mike? Is it just because it was Lindsay who picked it up and ran with it that you are mad. I can tell you that the same information that was given to Lindsay was given to Brent, Ben and Mike and they did absolutely nothing with it but Lindsay decided to check into it and write a story about it. In doing so, she interviewed the aunt who won custody and then lost it. Do you think that the aunt didn’t know the connection between Brenda Lei and Nuffer? She posted about it in a comment on another Trib story about the appointment of Nuffer. Please understand that you aren’t the only one with information to share and that if it is posted here we welcome it being picked up by mainstream media for further dissemination.

  198. G and W: I agree with what you posted. IMO, the inherent abuses of polygamy must receive the broadest publicity possible to counteract things like sister wives, etc. This blog and the many books that have come from Sam Brower, Ellisa Walls, Carolyn, etal have really helped put the flds under a spotlight. The worst thing that could happen would be to have that spotlight turned off. That would just enable Lyle, Warren, whoever to continue their abusive ways with no one outside the community knowing anything about it.

  199. A note on David Nuffer, an appointment as a federal judge comes from the Whitehouse, The US Constitution requires the President to nominate federal Judges. Mr. Nuffer will become a federal judge because President Obama approves of Mr. Nuffer and personally signed off on the nomination. The US Senate must approve the appointment, once that’s done he’s a federal judge for life.

    So if anyones to blame for this appointment, it’s President Obama

    President Obama had this to say about David Nuffer:

    WASHINGTON- Today, President Obama nominated Thomas Owen Rice and Judge David Ogden Nuffer to United States District Court judgeships.

    “I am honored to nominate these distinguished individuals to serve on the United States District Court bench,” said President Obama. “They have both demonstrated an unwavering commitment to justice throughout their careers, and I am confident they will continue to serve the American people with integrity.”

    President Obama also stated in a press release that Nuffer is replacing Judge Kimball who is retiring.

  200. A note on Judge Kimball who is retiring, he’s the judge that presided over the trial of polygamist kidnapper Brian David Mitchell, one can only wonder how that trial would have turned out if Nuffer had been the judge.

    Below link from White house, forgot to put it with previous post.

  201. gretchen: “LOOK at the photo of Dan Barlow and seven “wives” on Mormon Hair (poof!)”

    That guy doesn’t look anything like Dan Barlow.

  202. gretchen: “LOOK at the photo of Dan Barlow and seven “wives” on Mormon Hair (poof!)”

    That guy doesn’t look anything like Dan Barlow.

    Since Mike Watkiss says it’s Barlow, IMO it’s Barlow. Watkiss tends to be one of the most reliable of the news media on subject of FLDS IMO.

  203. A Texan,

    Senators Hatch and Lee share responsibility for the Nuffer nomination with President Obama.

    Look up “blue slipping” and federal judicial nominations.

    Then take a look at how Orrin Hatch has historically viewed and utilized blue slips when it comes to federal nominations in the judicial District of Utah, including US Attorneys.

    Hatch is one of the masters of the blue slip.

  204. Gretchen, I really loved your 8:11 post. I believe that we are on the same page. As believers in Jesus Christ our greatest weapon is prayer. Our most powerful impact is not through the political process. Our warfare is not against people but against the unseen forces of evil and our weapons are of a divine nature rather than physical.

    I am disappointed by the apparent apathy of American Christians concerning thousands of girls and women being forced into a lifetime of sexual slavery in the middle of our country. When I read Carolyn’s first book I figured that if I hurried I could take part in the Christian invasion of Short Creek that must certainly be taking place. When my wife expressed concern about safety I assured her that by the time we got there the national guard would have moved in, established the rule of law, set up safe houses and the churches of America would all be competing for the greatest presence there. My fantasy world has collapsed around me. I have been forced to realize that neither my country or my church has the priorities I thought they did.

    As Christians we need to get down off of our arrogant self-righteous high horses, humble ourselves before God and confess our self-seeking, self-promoting apathetic indifference that has allowed this situation to develop unchecked. I would like to encourage and challenge my fellow believers on this blog to spend some knee time beseeching the God of the universe on behalf of those enslaved by enforced ignorance, that the Light and love of Jesus Christ might shine into their darkness.

  205. ntruth & others,The best thing you can do is not bring your arrogant self righteous attitudes to bear on Short Creek , don’t try to bring a military type of justice to flds or they will still go into hiding & get worse with mistreating women ! You’re not God you’re not Jesus ! What would happen if so called “Christians” went after Jews or Moslems Buddhists , Bahais ,, there are many places around the world where polygamy is acceptable, not just ,Moslems : Central Asian countries, Some east Asian countries , some parts of India, some Indian tribes of South America, Also a woman having more than one husband is practiced in a few countries around the world , even in the U.S. there are a few women who have more than one husband , where does it stop ? Yes prosecute, flds hierarchy for underage coercive marriages, help those women have a normal life, but give Short Creek a breather, from do gooders & self righteous Christians who act like they know how everybody should live, when does all this self righteousness STOP ! Who’s next on the agenda of people I mentioned earlier ? Allow some time for things to settle down before barging in on Short Creek & flds sheeple I’m not saying it’s right, but give the town a rest from do gooders for a while ! <<<>>>

  206. Here’s more from a link found on SLTrib blogs as relates to Nuffer:

    Read President Obama’s nomination statement above at: A Texan said this on October 15, 2011 at 9:40 AM (click on whitehouse dot gov) link.

    In the statement President Obama notes Nuffer’s experience representing municipalities, which well all know refers to the FLDS controlled Hildale,UT/Colorado City,AZ, Obama not only knows but makes mention of this on offical statement. Obama says Nuffer is a man of integrity with an unwavering commitment to justice.

    It becomes clear as to President Obama”s views as he sees those who are the enablers of FLDS crimes as men of integrity, committed to justice!

    Explains much as to why no federal arrests, RICCO , Mann act or otherwise. The buck truly stops at the Whitehouse.

  207. anon 1:40 I’m not promoting a military type invasion of Short Creek, only that those trapped in the FLDS information vacuum be allowed access to the information they need to make informed choices.

  208. You’re not God you’re not Jesus ! What would happen if so called “Christians” went after Jews or Moslems Buddhists , Bahais ,, there are many places around the world where polygamy is acceptable, not just ,Moslems : Central Asian countries, Some east Asian countries , some parts of India, some Indian tribes of South America,
    Anonymous said this on October 15, 2011 at 2:27 PM

    My beef is not with polygamy. My beef is with sexual slavery. When we make polygamy the issue in this nightmare we validate the FLDS’s definition of marriage. When one man assigns a women to another man against the women’s will that is not marriage by any civilized societies definition of marriage. There has to be marriage before there can be polygamy. When one man can reassign a women and her children to another man no marriage, therefore no polygamy has taken place.

    Many brave men have fought and died for the rights of these women to make free, informed choices. I say that these rights need to be enforced.

  209. A Texan, I think it’s a huge jump to assume that Obama is really informed about what’s going on in Short Creek. It’s also a tad paranoid to suggest that he’s stopping Mann Act prosecutions because he values polygamists more than he values little girls. I doubt seriously that any president is that involved in the day to day decisions about whether or not to prosecute criminals. And if there is something organized that’s holding back Federal prosecution, it certainly predates Obama.

    It’s unlikely that Obama knows much of anything about Nuffer that has not been hand fed to him by someone from Nuffer’s own region, including a cleaned up version of his work for Short Creek stated as a protection of religious freedom. Perhaps there is some way we could help inform Obama about the real situation.

  210. And in that new spin video preview from Lisa Ling from the OWN network was the female Dr. who stood at the podium for almost 20 minutes patting herself on the back during a Safety Net Meeting.

    She was the one who came from the area and the background and let herself rise above it by reading books.

    She is married to a man who is not from there. He is Catholic I think she said.

    She also said that she goes to the leaders and asks them what it is that they would like to see her encourage.

    Interesting stuff out there.

    Dan Barlow, mayor of Colorado City, Ariz., whose fundamentalist followers run the Canadian commune, said the decision is another signpost on the road to legalizing polygamy in the United States.

    Polygamists’ first marriages already are state-sanctioned. If the 16-year-old girl who ran away from her polygamous husband had been civilly married, prosecutors would not have the option of filing statutory-rape charges against her husband.

    Such unions are legal, even when the bride is as young as 14 and the groom is old enough to be her grandfather.

    After performing one such ceremony, Salt Lake County Clerk Sherrie Swensen asked Utah lawmakers to raise the minimum marriage age in Utah from 14 to 16. But this year, legislators turned it down by a single vote.

    “A lot of us felt it took away freedoms,” Sen. Robert Montgomery, R-Ogden, explained. “It took away a basic right for young people to have families.”


    Is it really a prophecy when you lie, cheat and steal to make things come true?



    Wendell is challenging his indictments claiming the bigamy law is unconstitutional.

  212. Just looked at the pic that is supposedly Dan Barlow, there is no way that is Dan. His father maybe, but not Dan.

  213. Anon 11:07 PLEASE don’t go away. We’re mostly a trustworthy bunch here but this is a very public blog.

    Don’t discount that what probably happened is that the certain reporter (who I am not acquainted with) might have seen something here about Nuffer that caused her to research it and in all good faith find the evidence and report on it hoping to inform readers about his past sympathies.

    I know no more (or less) than you do on this particular situation, but I know that the goal of most of us here is to eradicate the abuses polygamy presents and to get the word out about them. And I’m not sure if I care who gets the credit. It’s possible her article will really make people think – and maybe that’s your goal as well.

  214. The San Angelo paper posted this opinion piece on subject of bigotry aimed at those who would call Mormons a cult. I would agree with this opinion piece. From article:

    “It’s stunning that a well-known minister would so flagrantly, even proudly, embrace outright bigotry. Perhaps Romney’s biggest defenders, at least on this issue, are Roman Catholics, who not so long ago faced similar undeserved and irrational bias when seeking national political office.”

    We need all united on subject of dealing with FLDS like groups, to solve the problem of polygamy. You need the support of the LDS, and the Catholics, as well as the evangelicals. This type of bigotry will have the Catholics looking the other way and the LDS who are key to ending polygamy in the Utah/Arizona doing the same.

  215. It sure seems that many people want to define religion to make their own ideas about their beliefe in God the “norm”.

    Seems that the FLDS group meets few of the criteria that many “mainstrem” christians believe in.

    It is such a shame that “freedom of religion” is being defined by persons that are no longer part of a particular religious group or others that have started a crusade to impose their path to God on others.

  216. Good Grief: No one here is trying to dictate what someone can believe. What people object to are illegal and/or abusive acts carried out by religious leaders. Does not matter whether the religious leaders are catholic priests, new age gurus, fundamental mormons, etc. The focus is and should be on the acts, not the tenets.


    Is Mormonism Christian? This question is not a new one, but one that is being asked recently from a different direction and with a different angle. Previously, this query was raised principally by traditional Christians on a quest to determine whether or not Mormon doctrines and principles were indeed Christian. The answers found, often provided by outstanding evangelical scholars and apologists, demonstrated that the LDS Church does indeed believe that the Bible has been corrupted, that Joseph Smith added additional fabricated volumes to Scripture, that God was once a man, that Jesus was “sired” by God in union with Mary, that active membership in the LDS Church is essential for the fullness of salvation, and numerous other doctrinal positions wholly incompatible with biblical orthodox Christianity.

    Today, however, the question originates with the Mormon church and is directed to at least two audiences. The first audience is their own membership, many of whom are unsettled with being thought of as a cult. Mormon Church leaders, therefore, are attempting to calm the waters by reassuring them that mentioning the name of Jesus often – having it appear in their literature and church logo – answers the question in the affirmative and is reason enough to believe that they are Christians.

    The second audience is evangelical Christians themselves – their churches, ministerial alliances, and other organizations where Mormons hope to make public alliances, and other organizations where Mormons hope to make public relation inroads – as well as to create seedbeds for their proselytizing efforts.

    Well, what about it, is Mormonism Christian? Not unless it has been altered radically and that, very recently. There was perhaps some hope that the LDS church might consider rethinking their Gnostic view of man, their henotheistic/polytheistic view of God, their sacerdotal-ecclesiastical system of salvation, and their peculiar fertility-cult Hinduistic, cyclical world view, in favor of a less outrageous model when the LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley equivocated his way through a Time Magazine interview. When asked the question whether God was once a man, he answered, “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it… I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it.”

    Were his hesitations signs of the beginning of a hoped for, incremental, baby-steps reform? Clearly not. Consider the issuing this spring of an LDS Church instructional book entitled: Teachings

    and Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young. The manual was published under the purview of the Mormon First Presidency, including President Hinckley. It was probably in process about the period of the Time Magazine interview. Chapter four, “Knowing and Honoring the Godhead,” contains the following lines: “Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so. President Brigham Young taught ‘that God the Father was once a man on another planet who passed through the ordeals we are now passing through and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death on this mortality.'”

    There we have it, President Hinckley. You do believe and your Church still teaches that God was once a mortal human being, who sinned, erred, died and who knows what else, and yet is now your god. That is certainly not the Christian view of God. In fact, it is a long way from the Bible’s concept of the Eternal, uncreated One:

    For I am God and there is no other;
    I am God and there is none like Me. (Isaiah 46:9)

    Before me there was no God formed.
    Nor shall there be after Me. (Isaiah 43:10)

    Considering just their view of God, the only way that Mormons could be labeled Christian is with the attachment of the adjective “heretical.” The Mormon god is no god at all, but rather, is a demiurge, a subordinate god who is not worthy of the name “God.”

    There is therefore only one conclusion that we can arrive at regarding the “Mormons are Christians” campaign and that is that the LDS Church is simply orchestrating a public relations campaign. They have so revised the biblical concept of God that it is unrecognizable as such. Their only argument remaining is – “but we use the name of Jesus!” But so did the Marcionites, the Arians, the Sabellians, the Monophysites, the Apollinarians, and a whole host of other heretical movements throughout history. I cam claim to be Evander Holyfield, but that does not make me THE Evander Holyfield.

    No, we just reject consistently and persistently, but with grace, patience, and love the Mormon claim to the precious appellation of “Christian” – follower of the crucified, risen Lord, “…the Word was with God (One eternal, uncreated being), and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)

    Phil Roberts is director of the Interfaith Witness Evangelism Section of The North American Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention.

  218. Whetther the mormons are christion or not depends on how christian beliefs are defined and on who defines them.

  219. piddypat5 ; I grew up with this saying there are 2 subjects I shouldn’t talk about , “politics & religion” I mostly try to steer clear of those 2 subjects,Why ? Because there is always somebody who will disagree with you & give their opinion, do we have opinionated people who will disagree with everything & everyone who isn’t of their faith or political beliefs ,I hope not on this post site ! Be moderate it’s easier ! >> other-ANON <<

  220. Groups that are going to hell per the Southern Baptists; Mormons, Roman Catholics, Jews, Regular Baptists, other Protestants, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Zoroastrians, all Tribal or localized indigenous religions, Shintoists, Atheists and Gays. Personally their (the Southern Baptists) Heaven is NOT someplace I would EVER want to go.

  221. That’s one of the [many] problems with organized, or disorganized, religion. I would guess almost all are of the opinion they are the true one and only religion, and all others are going to hell…or whatever that particular beliefs form of eternal damnation. That’s basically what I was taught, growing up Catholic. Most have very little tolerance of others beliefs. The fanaticals are even less forgiving of those who believe other than they do.

  222. I’m a Baptist and I steer clear of the Southern Baptists. Life is much easier that way.

  223. Not to interrupt any chit chat on religion, but is Warren back in his prison bolt hole?

  224. Good let the perverted RAT rot away for a loooong time ! << other-Anon

  225. Yes Stamp, Warren is back in Palestine.

  226. I’ve been thinking about the “thing” being constructed at YFZ.

    Is it possible that it could be both a statue and a water tower?

    According to Debra Weyerman’s book, “Answer Them Nothing” p. 324, in 2010, YFZ was denied an exemption for water well spacing by the Water Conservation and Control District Board.

    From the book:

    “The sect wanted to sink a new well within one hundred feet of an existing one, an ambition met with a chorus of complaints from FLDS’s ranching neighbors. In denying the exemption, board member Phil McCormick remarked that the sect’s explanation for why they needed the new well ‘didn’t work’ for him.”

    I wish I knew what justification they gave when requesting the exemption.

    (Note to self: don’t let my subscription to the Eldorado Success lapse again.)

    Is it conceivable that they could be planning to truck water to YFZ from Short Creek for an expanding population at YFZ?

    Perhaps they weren’t being upfront with the water conservation board about why they needed more water?

    Maybe the statute is Warren’s weird way of trying to obscure the primary function of the structure?

  227. TT

    “I’ve been thinking about the “thing” being constructed at YFZ.

    Is it possible that it could be both a statue and a water tower?”

    he he

    Cant resist – That would make it easier for him to yanno, and tell them its rain…

  228. I want to add a few heartfelt thoughts. I’ve been lurking for some months now and think I should come out of hiding 🙂

    On the “Are Mormons Christian?” question: Thank you Anon 3:03, it depends on who defines “Christian.” You can easily construct definitions that will exclude or include various groups. I am an active member of the mainstream LDS church. I believe that Jesus Christ lives and is my Savior, that he suffered in Gethsemane and died on the cross to redeem me, and that through his grace alone I can find peace in this life and in the next. If someone else has a different definition of Christianity that doesn’t include me, well, okay. It doesn’t change the fact that I have a profound faith in Christ and therefore identify myself as a Christian.

    On the “ending polygamy” issue that floats around here: I have an honest question. I’ve heard some folks here suggest that the LDS church has some responsibility for the FLDS situation and that the abuses/polygamy won’t end until the LDS church gets more involved in the whole FLDS mess. I don’t know nearly as much about the FLDS as you all, so I really just need help understanding. The LDS church has not had ties to the FLDS for +80 years, right? So how could they have any responsibility, and what could the LDS church to do to help now? I don’t want people assuming that because we have a common historical heritage and some geographic proximity there is some link that isn’t there–I certainly know of none. Likewise, if there really is some blame or chance to help, as a member of the LDS church I really want to know. Hard for me to imagine how that could possibly be, but I’m an open-minded truth-seeking type.

    Thank you!

  229. The LDS church probably has no more control over the Mormon fundamentalists than the Roman Catholic Church has over Protestants.

  230. Rebecca,

    Thanks for your questions and explaining your position. Chemist, who frequents here, is also LDS as well as perhaps others, as well as probably some Ex’s.

    I am guilty of painting a lot of this latter day drama on Joe, and to answer your questions (I’m not sure you are a Utah LDS?) any way one of the big problems is breakoffs from the main Church starting over 100 similar sects.

    Rulon Jeffs was raised LDS and served a mission in England. So there is a close connection.

    The point where the LDS have a hand, or better put, lack thereof, is on the ongoing enabling and weak Utah LE action to do anything about the various abuses.

    If you know Church history well you would know that many LDS kept wives after the manifesto – I think up to the early 20th century, and thats when a lot broke off to “continue the principle”… Some say polygamy was discontinued after 1890 but that was for NEW marriages – although that too is alleged to be a cross your finger rule to some for a while.

    Today, there are likely many in the Church who practice this in secret, as there also would be gays, coffee drinkers, etc too.

    I read the Darger children attend LDS Church services. So you can see there is a pretty gray area there and the main Church just isnt that interested in worrying about it – but the issue isnt about the Darger children – its the failure to encourage LE to do anything about it. And Utah is as close to a theocratic state as they come.

    A lot of what I say isnt perhaps common knowledge in the Church but you can research it, if you have questions feel free to post.

  231. Bib

    I dunno, are there any Protestants in the Vatican? he he

    My post was meant to say the LDS “Enables” this to continue, its just the way its always been there.

    The Church could and should have made a lot more effort to stop this foolishness. Hells bells they give them a city charter for crying out loud.

  232. Are there Protestants in Vatican City ? Yes, serving on ecumenical groups / councils that the Roman Catholic Church runs. Additionally – the Catholic Church has a “return to Roman Catholicism” movement called “Coming Home” which seeks to “recruit” practicing ex – Catholic evangelicals who left the Catholic Church in their younger days. There are many Catholics who are attracted to evangelicalism who “straddle the fence” so to speak attending both Catholic and evangelical churches. This does not mean the Pope has any control over mainstream Protestant denominations.

  233. So, what Protestants there are, are there with the blessing of the Vatican(?)…

    IMO similar to the FLDS, there only due to the blessing of the State errr LDS.

  234. I don’t think that the LDS church has any control of Mormon fundamentalists. The Catholic Church has a “dialog” and a relationship with most Protestant groups, but no control over these Protestant groups. I think that there is VERY limited (almost no) dialogue between the LDS and Mormon fundamentalist groups, and the LDS church has absolutely no control over these groups.

  235. My point was, that since they havent in the past, present or future, really planned on enforcing any laws against these felonies on the books, they have defacto enabled them.

    They dont go and tell them how to run their Church services, but time and again the fundies have gotten away with all sorts of atrocities and just gotten their wrist slapped.

    That’s due to the liberal cultural in that state IRT to this practice started by the man who everyone follows, fundies or mainstream alike.

    It would be like Timothy Leary followers not taking acid any more, but giving a wink and a nod to the few who still try it.

    We’ve seen the apologists.

  236. Interesting, Ray Garton on FLDS and religion in general.

    Warren Jeffs and the FLDS: Don’t Say It’s Not About Religion, Because IT IS!

    “What Warren Jeffs was doing was religion! He wasn’t using religion or hiding behind it – he was practicing it! What was going on in the FLDS’s eight sister cities in the United States and Canada – and what is still going on even as I write this – is a direct product of religion. It is not something separate. It is not a rogue group of perverts using religion to justify their oppressive, abusive lifestyle. It IS religion! If it weren’t, it would be virtually impossible to maintain that lifestyle for so long, to convince so many women over so many years that they must share husbands, submit themselves totally to the abusive will of the men who run the group, and that they must hand over their little girls to be fucked by those men in ritualized group sex settings where they, the mothers, not only watch but participate and condone this activity. Those women do that because they believe if they don’t, they will be punished by god.

    And that, my friends, is religion. There’s nothing else like it on the planet. It stands alone in its ability to convince people of absolutely anything.”

    “There is a widespread misconception about the women in the FLDS. They are seen as victims – and they are. But mostly, they are seen only as victims – and they are not. They are perpetrators. They started out as victims, but they have been participating in the abuse of those children and have become predators. And they are doing it – why? Because they honestly believe it’s what god wants them to do.”

    “There is no difference between what that Christian mother does and what the mothers in the FLDS do. The results might be different, the specific beliefs and instructions might vary, but both are using terror to get their children to think and act in a certain way. That’s not only the definition of religion, by the way – it’s also the definition of terrorism.”

    Click above link for the whole article.

  237. Whetther the mormons are christion or not depends on how christian beliefs are defined and on who defines them.

    Anonymous said this on October 16, 2011 at 3:03 PM


    Christian:There is only One God
    James 2:19, Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10

    Mormonism:The Existence of Many Gods
    Journal of Discourses 2:345; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p.370; Mormon Doctrine, pp.322-323; 576-577

    Christian: God the Father is not a Man
    Numbers 23:19; Isaiah 31:3; Hos.11:9

    Mormonism: God the Father is an Exalted Man
    Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347; D&C 130:22

    Christian: Jesus has always been God
    John 1:1-18; Col. 2:9; Psalms 90:2

    Mormonism: Jesus Became a God
    Deseret News, June 17, 1909; Conference Report, Apostle Richard Scott, April 7, 1997

    Christian: Satan is a Created Being, Created by Jesus
    Isaiah 14:12-15; Revelation 12:9; Colossians 1:15-16

    Mormonism: Jesus and Satan are Brothers
    Gospel Through the Ages, p.15

    Christian: Jesus has only One Bride: the Church
    Revelation 19:7-9; 21:9

    Mormonism: Jesus was a Polygamist
    Journal of Discourses vol.2, 82,210, Journal of Discourses, vol.1:345-346

    Christian: Men can only become Children of God
    John 1:12; Romans 8:23

    Mormonism: Men can Become Gods
    Journal of Discourses, vol. 2:345; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346-347

    Christian: There is no Salvation after Death
    Hebrews 3:7-8, 13, 15; 9:27

    Mormonism: There is Salvation after Death
    Mormon Doctrine, pp. 669-672

    Christian: There is Salvation only in Jesus Christ
    John 14:6; Acts 4:12
    Salvation is only through Jesus
    John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9
    Salvation comes only by faith in Jesus. There are no laws and ordinances in the true Gospel of God
    1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 2:16-21; Eph. 2:8-9; Phil 3:9; Titus 3:5-7

    Mormonism: There is Salvation only in the LDS Church
    Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1:350; Mormon Doctrine, p. 670
    Salvation is through Jesus and Joseph Smith
    Journal of Discourses, vol. 7:289; Mormon Doctrine, p. 670
    Salvation comes only through the LDS Church by following all the laws and ordinances of the LDS gospel
    Third Article of Faith, Mormon Doctrine p. 670, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, 306-311

  238. “My point was, that since they havent in the past, present or future, really planned on enforcing any laws against these felonies on the books, they have defacto enabled them.”

    Response : The “enablers” are in fact both state and federal officials who have done nothing to bring them to justice. These officials aren’t just LDS.

  239. “Interesting, Ray Garton on FLDS and religion in general.

    Warren Jeffs and the FLDS: Don’t Say It’s Not About Religion, Because IT IS!”

    I read it – Garton thinks that there is no difference between a religious group and a cult. I think he needs to review the established clinical criteria for cultic groups.

  240. Clinical Criteria for Cultic Groups :

    · The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

    · Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

    · Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

    · The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

    · The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

    · The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

    · The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

    · The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

    · The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

    · Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

    · The group is preoccupied with making money.

    · Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

    · Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

    · The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

  241. Local and State LE typically have been LDS – Feds apparently influenced.

    Senator Hatch has played the organ at church services there in an effort to drum up votes and has been quoted some are his “Good friends” so yeah, there has even historically been a record of LDS politicians blocking legal actions.

    Here some Democrats are mad Hatch used them as patsys to win elections, and what Hatch had to say about them in 2005, a couple years after Warren took over:


    “I’m not here to justify polygamy,” he said. “All I can say is, I know people in Hilldale who are polygamists who are very fine people.

    You come and show me evidence of children being abused there and I’ll get involved. Bring the evidence to me.”×3035486


    Or you could take former Governor Mike Leavitt’ position, to further sample the culture club atmosphere that has enabled this so long:


    “At one point, Utah Gov. Michael O. Leavitt, a Republican and a descendant of polygamists, came under fire for suggesting that plural marriage may be constitutionally protected as a form of religious expression.

    Later, he amended his statement to add that illegal activities should be prosecuted.”


    Any way, not to beat a dead horse, but the fact Orrin floated Nuffer exposes the fact Hatch, a tenured United States Senator, really isn’t bothered with things back home, they USUALLY keep this nonsense down to a low roar, ooops he cant help them if they trot off to Texas.

    Guess this is why I have the opinion I do. Further questions could also go to Jay Beswick, he has FAR more experience with all branches of LE than I do in trying to help the children.

    BTW as I recall, and its best said by him, the reason the Feds havent jumped on all these crimes yet is because they arent running drugs or guns.

    (even thought the Feds – cough cough – just got caught running 2000 guns to Mexican drug cartels themselves)

    I hereby submit its political and the Fed is still trying to keep it stuffed for Hatch / Utah / LDS sake.

    Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m jaded.

    But with all those trafficked children and nothing is done?

    tsk tsk tsk

  242. “My point was, that since they havent in the past, present or future, really planned on enforcing any laws against these felonies on the books, they have defacto enabled them.”

    Response : The “enablers” are in fact both state and federal officials who have done nothing to bring them to justice. These officials aren’t just LDS.

    Born in Brooklyn said this on October 17, 2011 at 6:27 AM

    I agree, which is why I pointed out the Nuffer was nominated by President Obama-these officals aren’t just LDS.

    I would disagree with piddpat5’s post at 6:27AM because it is an attack on the LDS. IMO the key to getting enforcement of existing laws on polygamy is getting the LDS to take action. Common sense tells me you don’t attack someone when you want their help. IMO an LDS person coming across this blog would immediately leave after seeing the attack on their faith.

    If you want the help and support of LDS-and you won’t end polygamy unless you do have that help and support. As they say in east Texas, you catch more flies with honey, and none with vinegar.

    It’s no different than if you want the help of the Catholics, if you attack the Pope & Catholic doctrine, the Catholic Church and the membership aren’t going to give you the time of day. It works the same way with the LDS.

    This blog needs to concentrate of exposing publicly the crimes of the FLDS leadership who hijacked a faith and turned it into a criminal mafia like crime family. This blog needs to concentrate on exposing the crimes related to polygamy.

  243. A Jewish viewpoint on subject of religious bigotry-from the Washington Post:

  244. Nuffer was nominated by Hatch, Obama passed the buck and rubber stamped him.

    So I am blaming Nuffer on Hatch. He is the one who owns him.

    BTW my posts werent meant as an attack on the LDS faith, just telling the tale straight up the way I see it go down.

  245. I lived half my life in Utah and half my life in other states and abroad. The LDS Church has absolutely no control over law enforcement in Utah, and if they did, it certainly would not extend down to Hildale/CC (Colorado City being in a different state, and Hildale just being off in the middle of nowhere many hours away from Salt Lake City). Utah is not a theocracy. A small majority (50-60%) of the population is Mormon and that is all. If the LDS Church were exercising any influence over law enforcement, I think that the 40-50% of Utahns who are not LDS would have filed some lawsuits by now.

    Yes, there was some post-Manifesto polygamy (my husband’s grandparents were both raised in polygamist households) but that was quite a long time ago. In 30 years in the Church, from the poorest and most humble wards to the middle-class Utah suburban wards to the wards full of the wealthy or influential, I have never met a polygamist. Conspiracy-minded types will latch on to a few strange isolated cases or even invent links that aren’t there. Nobody would stop the Darger children from attending LDS services just because their parents are polygamists–that’s their parents, not them, and shunning them wouldn’t accomplish anything for anyone. I would like to see the abuses and crimes of the FLDS end, too, but I am still waiting to hear any viable suggestion for what the LDS Church can do…otherwise, I hope that idea won’t be floated around anymore. Thanks!

    piddypat5: As I said, you can define “Christian” how you like. I also read the Bible and I am familiar with those scriptures you mentioned, but like all scripture they are open to interpretation. You have yours, I have mine. If you don’t accept that we are each entitled to interpret the Bible for ourselves, then I guess there really is no room for futher discussion.

  246. Rebecca

    I agree the Darger children should be able to attend services – its the right thing to do.

    Say, do you know the story of Orson Black?

    The “local” Washington County Sheriff had him surrounded, but let him spend “one more night” with his child brides, and he escaped to Mexico with these children from right under their noses.

    Where else in the US does this happen?

    Here he is on AMW

  247. If the LDS leadership were to actively call LE in Utah and urge them to investigate and prosecute certain groups and people; there would be a huge cry of the LDS church getting involved in politics and LE. I think the problem is at the LE department and individual level, with Shurtleff, with the Washington County and Mojave county departments, etc. I also agree that almost anyone is welcome to attend LDS church services. If a group of FLDS appearing people showed up for the service at our mid west ward they would be welcomed, as would anyone else.

  248. Garton thinks that there is no difference between a religious group and a cult. I think he needs to review the established clinical criteria for cultic groups.

    Born in Brooklyn said this on October 17, 2011 at 6:53 AM

    The “cult” label and its clinical definition aside, I think the main point of Garton’s lengthy article can be summarized with his statement regarding any and ALL religion, “There’s nothing else like it on the planet. It stands alone in its ability to convince people of absolutely anything.”

  249. Vinegar often gets a bad rap. But did you guys know that vinegar has some health benefits?

    Kinda cleans out the system. Gives certain things a little zip to the zap so to speak.


  250. Matter of Principle Part 1 of 5 Mormon Polygamy

    All 5 videos are very interesting. some of the footage includes the Laffertys, Ervil LeBaron, Ogden Kraut and Allreds

    One of the things that has me really cofused for years is the fact that the LDS Church states that they will excommunicate those practicing Polygamy. But then I’ve read that some of those that have been excommunicated have been allowed in thru the back door.

    How does that work?

  251. The federal District of Utah has a brand-new-right-out-of-the box US Attorney who was sworn in twelve days ago.

    No experience with criminal prosecutions, but I’m sure it will all work out.

  252. The US Attorney position in Utah had been vacant since December 2009 upon the departure of Brett Tolman.

    Why did it take so long to fill the position?

    Politics as usual.

    Hatch and Lee got what they wanted so all is right with that world.

  253. Unfortunately Mr. Garton relies heavily on hyperbole.

  254. Walton: Excommunication from the LDS church is usually not a lifetime event. When the behavior has changed and a sufficient amount of remorse and time has taken place an excommunicated member can rejoin the church. I have sat on many councils where a decision was made whether to allow or not allow an excommunicated member back in.

  255. chemist

    There WAS a bit of an outcry when Shurtleff said he was going to consult with the Church over some polygamy enforcement issue, maybe thats why some people think there is still a little theocracy going on.

  256. Rebecca,

    I would re-think the statement that you never met a polygamist. If you’re not in the Creek or on the YFZ they look just like everyone else and might attend church right beside you unbeknownst.

  257. Chemist you know that there are many days, that I wish I could roll my tounge into a parking zone. And we both know that I can be a pain in the butt about getting answers.

    I don’t know if you will ever know to what extent I appreciate your input on these things. Please, if ever it gets close to you being upset with me, just give me a nudge and tell me to park my tounge a bit. I won’t be offended. I’d rather take a day or two off and think about it and come back and ask in another way. I appreciate your patience and I appreciate your honesty. Seriously.

    Scroll down to the part Brother Ervil, Brother Ross, Brother Rulon… Unconventional LDS Records For Mormon Fundamentalists She says that we can share this link if we post this: © Copyright 2010, Helen Radkey-Permission is granted to reproduce, provided content is not changed and this copyright notice is included.

    How is it that these guys are still on the membership list? Ervil LeBaron, rulon Jeffs etc.

    Thanks chemist

  258. I am really tired of the “are Mormon’s Christian” conversation. I have my own opinion and think that many of their beliefs are not supported by the New Testament and radically changing the nature of Christ is not continued revelation but a gross distortion. But no matter. There are people who think they are Christian who don’t believe Catholics are Chrisian. It’s not a good excuse for being prejudiced and it does not automatically make the current LDS into a cult.

    I know that there is a reluctance on the state and the federal level to take on the FLDS. I tend to blame it more on the fact that it has in the past meant political suicide due to the pictures of wailing mothers being separated from their babies. Fear of another 1953 or another Waco is enough to make any politician cautious. I think also that those who are not familiar with the crime family culture and have either a liberal or libertarian world view are apt to see fundamentalist polygyny as being a “life style choice” like polyamory. They are going to see anti-polygamy types as being prejudiced and want to either ignore the polygamy issue or protect it as a First Amendment right. I think the only solution to that is to educate them, and I would hope the convictions in Texas are beginning to turn that tide.

    Still, some things that have happened stun me. Giving a man a few weeks in jail for sexually assaulting two of his own daughters because jail is not apt to change him just takes the wind out of me. I cannot understand such a cavalier disregard for the sanctity of the young women’s body and minds. I don’t know whether to mark that up to cronyism, to sympathy for the polygamists or just a blind hatred for women. I am at a loss to explain that.

  259. I think the only question that you should ask a presidential candidate about his religion is to what extent it will inform his decisions and actions as president. I don’t care if the president is Catholic, Mormon or Muslim for that matter, as long as he supports the laws and the constitution as a president should. If he takes orders from the Pope, the prophet or the imam, then I don’t want him (or her) in office. If he wants to act on an agenda (like banning contraceptives) that only a small fraction of the country supports and that flies in the face of other laws, rights and court rulings, then he is not a good candidate.

  260. Hello and Welcome Rebecca,

    Thanks for coming out of hiding and adding your two cents. I think that BiB has some excellent points listed above as does Chemist.

    One thing not touched in the discussion above is whether or not DC132 gives moral wiggle room or not to tolerance for polygamy. After following the FLDS since the raid I have decided that it does. Based on my conclusion (right or wrong) I would say the LDS church could help combat polygamy by addressing the elements of relating to polygamy DC132 in an unequivocable fashion… that it was wrong, is wrong, and will be wrong….
    As it stands “wrong for now” and “against the law” allows significant amount of wiggle wrong for those so inclined. By making a statement that polygamy was, is, and will always be wrong because it depends upon unequal relationships, it would allow the church to throw its moral weight against the practice. And its moral weight is considerable.

  261. I am sorry, here is the rest of my comment.

    why should the LDS have to spell out such a moral territory compared to other churches? Because, even tho it has been 120, 80, 60, or however many years you want to count the split it was the LDS church that brought the morally appoval to the practice within the culture of the United States so it bears a historical responsibility – in the same way that the US collectively bears a historical responsibility to slavery, extermination of the native populations and a host of other evils….. World War II was only initiated 70 years ago and Germany still works hard acknowledge its own culpability particularly in the face of skin head spin offs. And for that most people I know give today’s Germany a very conscious thanks

  262. I don’t read this blog on weekends (too busy enjoying outside) and catch up on Monday lunch hour. I have a bumper sticker on my car I wish I could attach here after reading all this. I am sure you guys have all seen it – it spells out coexist with various religious symbols. Maybe I need to create a new one with symbols for LDS, Baptist, Catholic, etc.

    I try to focus on not judging others for their beliefs- in hopes they don’t judge me for mine.

    Unless numbers have changed since I left SLC in 2004 – 70% are LDS in that state – and after seeing some situations personally there – I have to say, Yes, I believe LDS rule everything there politically and have excessive influence and control. Would not make sense if they didn’t given their numbers and ability to vote in blocks.

    As to the question of what can be done by LDS or other groups to help – I would say do more to help the lost boys and put influence on AG to do more. I am glad Shirtliff is not re-running. Maybe the next guy will do more.

  263. (back from the dentist)

    I am also at a loss to explain why no action is taken against the FLDS on financial crime. Even if you assume that the government in Utah is going to look the other way concerning polygamy, you would have to assume that the LDS members don’t enjoy having tax payer money out and out robbed by the FLDS in scams like the school system and the water board. Such prosecution would not lead to pictures of women in prairie dresses crying over their children, but only rooms full of accountants and lawyers in suits. Not likely to invoke images of Waco. Even when they found that the school system was being used by Warren Jeffs as a private slush fund, all they did was close it down. No one was prosecuted. It seems to me that Utah is bizarro world, cause I can till you that in Virginia, people would go to jail. A recent issue with fraud in a charter school did, in fact, end up with indictments, not just 10 years of “under investigation”.

  264. I can tell you. I cannot till you. Sigh.

  265. Well said, HHG.

  266. Betty, the public school system was NOT shut down. It is also in Arizona. (Not utah’s responsibility).

  267. I agree with 3C Rebecca, you need to rethink your statement about having never met a polygamist. I live in the middle of West Texas and I’ve met plenty of them.

  268. The public school system was taken away from the FLDS because of fraud and mismanagement.

  269. I agree with 3C Rebecca, you need to rethink your statement about having never met a polygamist. I live in the middle of West Texas and I’ve met plenty of them.

    Proud Texan said this on October 17, 2011 at 4:40 PM
    I live in NY and I have met plenty of polygamists – and most were not wearing hijab…

  270. Can’t resist:
    Denial is not just a river in Africa.

  271. Posted for a Canadian Friend : We are asking all Canadians and Americans to write letters to the Canadian Government and B.C. Government officials regarding Zelpha Chatwin, one of Winston Blackmore’s wives, who was interviewed by journalist Carolyn Jarvis on the Canadian Global Network’s 16/9 News Magazine Show, Saturday, October 15, 2011. Zelpha Chatwin was deported to the United States 4 years ago because she is in Canada illegally. She said in her interview that she is going back to school to become a teacher. She is obviously back in Canada illegally and flaunting it on television.

    Please address your letters to:

    1. The Honourable Diane Finley, Minister of Citizenship, Immigration & Multiculturalism, Canada:

    2. Honourable Don Davies, NDP Critic for Citizenship, Immigration & Multiculturalism, Canada:

    3. Attorney General Shirley Bond, Government of British Columbia:

    4. Honourable Leonard Krog, Critic for the Attorney General, Government of British Columbia:

    Here is the comment from activists in B.C. regarding Zelpha Chatwin:

    Zelpha Chatwin, the woman who said in her recent TV (October 2011) appearance that next year she is going to college in Canada to become a teacher was deported from Canada about 4 years ago. WHY IS SHE BACK IN CANADA ILLEGALLY AND FLAUNTING IT? She was also on another program (Nat Geo last year) giving birth to her seventh child in Canada, and stating that she intended to have one more baby by Winston Blackmore. Why is this woman allowed to openly defy the law ?

  272. Activist Helga Zeiner weighs in on the Zelpha Chatwin issue :

    16×9 special “My Two Weeks Inside Bountiful”
    Written on October 17, 2011 by Helga in Bountiful, child brides, Global TV special, Polygamy

    Re the 16×9 special “My Two Weeks Inside Bountiful”

    Aired on Global, October15th, 2011
    An open letter to Carolyn Jarvis

    Dear Ms Jarvis,

    It is understandable that in order to get permission from Winston Blackmore to film in his village, you had to approach the subject diplomatically and give him a chance to voice his view.

    But did you have to accept all his statements at face value, without challenging at least the most outrageous of his evasive comments? “Just because I married a fifteen-year-old, does not mean I touched her!” It is a known fact that some of his wives had children while still under age. Now, how is that possible? Or his amazing claim that his community is self-sufficient. “None of my family collects social benefits”. Did you check how much it costs BC taxpayers every year to fund his private school? How many of his wives collect social benefits as single mothers? How many boys were kicked out without an education, unable to support themselves without social assistance? “I personally set up three of my older sons in business outside Bountiful.” How many sons were kicked out before they reached the age of eighteen?

    A lot of those figures would have been at your finger tips when digging into official files and records. There is also the brilliantly researched book “The Secret Lives Of Saints” by Vancouver Sun journalist Daphne Bramham which could have given you many interesting insights into the topic while researching for the program.

    Unfortunately the special was handed over to Blackmore on a silver platter – giving him a platform to portray himself as the caring head of a harmless religious group done wrong by public opinion. All this set in a lovely country-side, basked in brilliant sunshine and accompanied by sweet country tunes. Blackmore was allowed to hand-pick a chosen few to confirm his progressive leadership style, belly-button and all, and present himself as the center of one big, loving, caring and carefree family.

    Luckily most people I spoke to today didn’t buy into this soapy “polygamy public relations piece”.

    I wonder if you did.

    When you ever so gently touched the delicate matter of child-bride trafficking between Bountiful and Utah and he replied with mumbled surprise and righteous indignation, (“why should I … who, me? …what do you mean…?”), did you really expect the viewers to know all the horrid facts behind this proven accusation and see what an evasive manipulator Winston Blackmore really is?

    This program was aired nation wide. Most Canadians know nothing or very little about Bountiful. I find it unfortunate to leave them with an impression that Blackmore is harmless and misunderstood.

    But maybe you are preparing for a second part, called “Outside Bountiful”, in which you will give all those a platform who can present hard facts about this pedophile. I sure hope so. Because then it would all make sense and the special was not just a shallow, distorted report but simply only one side of a scale.

    Please, balance it out. Don’t leave it at that. It is not fair to all those who have suffered greatly under Blackmore’s rule.

    Thank you.

    Helga Zeiner

    Author, Section 132
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  273. Betty, can you point me in the direction of the evidence of the public school being a “slush fund” for warren? THAT’S RIGHT! There ISN’T any! Thanks just the same.

  274. Ah, you again. Still in denial, I see. Yes, you are right it was in Arizona. It WAS put into receivership. It was put into receivership for extreme financial impropriety. Read the book “Answer them Nothing” for more information.

  275. Question is the same regardless of state. If there is extreme financial impropriety (disappearing airplane?), then why is no one prosecuted? In Virginia, when tax payer money disappears, someone goes to jail.

    The fire department was investigated and obvious improprieties with money were printed in the newspaper. What was that one or two years ago? Where’s the arrest?

  276. Anon @ 5:53, there is some evidence, the school was removed from the control of the FLDS for mismanagement.

    Get over yourself.

  277. If memory serves…..and it is getting spotty these days….MOST of CC/Hildale was a cash cow for WJ and his minions. The public [tax supported] school system, Homeland Security $$$ for the airport [that no one but WJ’s used], $$$ from the public [tax supported] water department. It was like an open cash register for him. Plus all the business’s his faithful owned that had to pay their kickbacks [my word] to keep in business. Hmmmm, kinda like working for the mafia!

  278. Read a book?

    ACK! Thats Kryptonite! Pesky books get sent to the DI or burned.

    No need for them in Shortcrick!

  279. mc1199

    But arent they an adorable little mafia?


  281. In July of 2000, Warren Jeffs, on behalf of his ailing father Rulon Jeffs, announced that members of the FLDS Church should home-school their children and completely cut ties with non-members and former members. When classes began on August 22nd, around 350 students were enrolled in the school system, compared to over 1000 the previous year. More than half of the teachers in Colorado City schools were members of the FLDS Church and did not return for work.

    Most of the remaining teachers and students were members of the “Second Ward” and considered to be “heathens” and “among the most evil people on Earth” by the FLDS members. Regardless, while the most of the students in the district were non-FLDS, the FLDS leaders did not relinquish control of the school board, which determined the funding disbursed in the district. Within two years, accusations would be leveled that FLDS leaders abused the school district treasury to provide unneeded jobs, new vehicles, credit cards, school supplies and other perks to help FLDS church members support their huge polygamous families. Despite the drop in enrollment, the one-school district with 350 students maintained more than 100 employees B nearly a 3-to-1 student-to-employee ratio (almost five times the ratio of comparable school districts).[28]

    Documents showed that non-FLDS teachers’ salaries were some of the lowest in the state of Arizona, while non-teaching positions held by FLDS members were paying top dollar; FLDS school administrators were sometimes compensated more than $50,000 annually. Especially disconcerting to state politicians was learning of the district’s purchase of a $220,000 Cessna airplane. Ostensibly it was needed to fly board members and other district personnel to attend educational conferences. No other school district in Arizona owned an airplane.

    Arizona politicians became concerned at the allegations of fiscal abuse. The Colorado City public school district received greater than $4 million a year in state and federal aid. Since more than half of the taxable land in the school district was controlled by the UEP, the UEP property taxes of $800,000 a year paid only a small portion of the total funds expended each year to maintain the local school programs. Consequently, the district had one of the highest tax rates in the state.

    After several investigations and a litany of complaints, on May ninth 2005 Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano quietly signed into law a bill that allowed state education officials to take over the Colorado City Unified School District from religious leaders. State officials planned to remove all existing administrators (Alvin Barlow, Jeffrey Jessop and Oliver Barlow) and hire new people.

  282. It’s difficult for some to face the truth while their eyes are firmly clamped shut, their hand tightly cover their ears and are screaming “Lalalalalalalalalala!!” to block out any noise of someone speaking.

  283. The fire department was investigated and obvious improprieties with money were printed in the newspaper. What was that one or two years ago? Where’s the arrest?

    Betty said this on October 17, 2011 at 6:14 PM

    Two men – Fire Chief Jacob Barlow, and City Manager David Darger, were indicted in August. This story gives the details:

    The end of the article says, “A judge set the next hearing in the case for Sept. 26 in Kingman.”

    But I have seen no followup. I wonder what happened with that. Anyone know if there is supposed to be a trial? Can they plead out of this?

  284. Sounds just like a Jeffs family slush fund to me.

    Did we ever find out what happened to the airplane?

    One thing I know, its not flying Warren Jeffs here and there.

    He’s kinda tied up at the moment.

  285. Thanks for the update, Ejay. I was camping in the wilderness for most of August. Yes, I wonder what hapened also.

  286. Betty, where is your evidence about its being a “slush fund” for warren? That WAS your allegation! I don’t think I’m being out of line for asking for clarification on the issue. Either put up or shut up. BTW, I’m not one of his admirers.

  287. What, your not satisfied with the details posted above?

    How about this, are you satisfied they took all that gravy away from the FLDS, or do you think they should still be getting it?

  288. A new post is up at the Polygamist’s Daughter Blog :

  289. I told you where to find the information, and you were given several news articles that back up what I was saying. You are not out of line in asking, but I answered you and several other people backed me up with more sources of information. You just don’t like the answer. I don’t know why it should come to you as a surprise that Warren Jeffs is a criminal who manipulates his followers for his own benefit, given his convictions so far.

  290. Anon @ 8:12 there have been several posts made which back up Betty’s allegation of a slush fund. If you aren’t bright enough to read them since Warren probably only let you go through the 5th grade that’s OK, but quit telling Betty to “put up or shut up” when it has been answered.

  291. Another link backing up what Betty is saying.

    But it wasn’t just Warren Jeffs that gained from these deals.



    Colorado City and Hildale Look like ghost towns right now. The few cars you see are filled with women and children. I was impressed to see a large piece of equipment blaze past me with a very small person at its controls. Most of the men have disappeared. The neutral family’s have been starved out out of existence here. There are a few standing but most have relocated to ND or other places to find work. Nobody works here for money.
    There is NO economy here just a communist regime that operates from hidden places. Everyone here is a missionary or a hunter gatherer. They are building HUGE concrete Bunkers here. The food supply’s that are handed out by the post office are picked up by the flds and carted off to their food storage banks, I have seldom seen any other person picking up a box of free food. Who is supplying this food? Their community gardens have been gleaned and preserved. The grain silos are full. The night sky is lit up around the storehouses and they patrol the streets all night. Complete families disappear and there are MANY empty houses here at this time. You can tell that they are trying to make an appearance of being here, But they arent. The women who used to shine at the local businesses
    have faded into grey and sullen shadows. They seem as if they have lost their hope completely and their physical conditions are pained and withdrawn. It seems to me like a party where all the booze and coke ran out several days ago and they are staring to show signs of cracking. Their Drug was the program that Jeffs had them on and they dont realize yet what they have done to themselves or to their own familys. I see suicide and depression coming ….

  293. Several more articles on the Colorado City School System:

  294. Anonymous said this on October 17, 2011 at 11:15 PM – you get points for creative writing and as I read this it almost sounded like Orson Wells reading it off to me.

    So… they starved them out huh? Interesting move. Doesn’t look like they were pushed if they left on their own.

    Leaving them no other choice but still giving them a choice. If everyone left I hope someone gave Ruth a change of address card.

    Still missing is Carol Burnett tugging on her ear as she cleans up. This whole time I thought it was a man behind the curtain but I am now thinking it was a man and a woman behind the curtain.


    Anon. I was serious with the creative writing comment.

    Great Review of last weeks show!

  296. Don’t think I have ever met a polygamist either. Perhaps some middle eastern men I worked with had more than one wife, but I was not aware of it. Don’t expect to see mormon fundamental polygamists in my mid west LDS ward.

  297. Rebecca and others, enough with the LDS lessons. We are not here to dissect the LDS, we are her to talk about the FLDS and their abuses. If you want to hash over the LDS, please start your own blog.

  298. ” Complete families disappear and there are MANY empty houses here at this time. You can tell that they are trying to make an appearance of being here,” Anonymous said this on October 17, 2011 at 11:15 PM

    The continued construction at YFZ & Pringle answer your question as to where have all the FLDS have gone. One can only wonder what Lyle the larcenous is up too? Perhaps they are following ole Warren the felonious profits statement that short creek is no longer zion.

    Hope that Sheriff Doran is keeping an eye on the goings on at YFZ, this can only add up to more trouble. What is the end game that Warren & Lyle are planning?

  299. Rebecca

    OOPS sorry about that, guess that was as much my fault as anyones. I do recall once we made a separate thread for “talking religion”, I didnt participate much but I think it went downhill fast.

  300. A Texan

    It really is an odd deal since Shortcreek is the financial base, how he gets away with disrespecting them so badly is amazing and seems pretty stupid.

    I think this twist in the story is one I can not recall ever happening in the US, maybe the ME or somewhere, but not here.

    How they get away with stripping people of money and goods and at the same time telling them they are second class – wow that would take the faith right out of any man… I dont care who you are.

  301. Rebecca and others, enough with the LDS lessons. We are not here to dissect the LDS, we are her to talk about the FLDS and their abuses. If you want to hash over the LDS, please start your own blog.

    FLDS Texas said this on October 18, 2011 at 6:30

    I would disagree, we need the LDS people here, because the LDS are often drawn into the question of polygamy. The question of enablers of FLDS often come up. Often it is implied that the LDS by looking the other way often become the enablers in Utah/Arizona. If they the LDS IMO are ran off blogs like this they will continue to ignore the issue of polygamy related crime. IMO many of the anti-polygamy groups are equally anti-LDS, which is sad. The key to ending the crimes of polygamy is getting the LDS on board. And there are not going to as long as they get run off.

  302. I dont think the thought was to run off anybody who is LDS, not at all-?

    I think some of that was pointed at me too as I kept talking about the history, but others were talking about “Are Mormons Christian or not” and I kinda think that was the main emphasis of the post? Thats the way I took it.

    Of course LDS are welcome here, Chemist has been here since day one.

  303. I don’t think our esteemed admin is trying to “run off” any LDS participants here. It’s the long-winded (and futile) religious arguments that drive some of the rest of us away from this blog.

    I believe we’re trying to understand all things FLDS here — the legal (criminal), secretive and abusive elements. Necessarily I think that means a wide range of knowledgeable participants, not the least being from LDS and, of course, FLDS ranks. It’s criminal abuse we’re after.

    Ahhh, but bigotry comes in many shapes and sizes which often crashes the scene. Whether Mormons are Christian or not is irrelevant. What purpose can that possibly serve???

    I disagree with the statement: “The key to ending the crimes of polygamy is getting the LDS on board.” We have to get it through our heads: that is simply not going to happen!

    The “key” is to get state LE and justice systems and especially the federal government on board.

    Money and politics are the big stonewall factors and in collusion behind the scenes. Throw plenty of religious issues into that witch’s cauldron along with an understanding that FLDS is not the only secretive ingredient in the soup.

    JMO and gut feelings based on plenty of background.

  304. Anonymous @ 11: 15 PM, 11/17/2011 : I know you had a creative writing moment, I wish what you wrote was true, I live in Short creek , haven’t seen anyone moving yet , seems the sheeple aren’t doing anything in that respect , they seem to be going about their daily lives oblivious to moving out to YFZ . Maybe Lyle/ Warren told to slowly filter out of Short Creek over the next few years, & head for YFZ, Pringle, & the other ” places of refuge ” , I can only guess at that , oh if it were true ! >>>> other-Anon

  305. So? We can talk about the ugly sex acts that are performed on children but we can’t or shouldn’t discuss this religion but we can talk about THAT religion. Nothing wrong with rules when they are up front and they are for everyone. No problem.

    Q. What makes these guys think they can do things like this?
    A. Because they claim it is part of their…

    Q. Where did they get an idea like that?
    A. You know, from that guy over there>>>

    Q. Why hasn’t anyone done anything about it?
    A. Because the rest of the population also believes in that guy over there>>>

    That should speed things up.

    Maybe if we keep passing notes in the hallway we might have this all figured out by the time the kids that have been born since this raid are on another board asking each other why no one ever talks about anything.

    I admit I bring up things that are some what sensitive to others. But someone has to say it. It is what it is.


  306. Thanks admin, that was my point exactly–the LDS is so remote from the FLDS that I’m troubled that it is always brought up on here. I think some people are still convinced that there’s some link/responsibility/something-or-other, though, and so they think it’s relevant. But you’re the admin, you call the shots, and I agree with you in substance. I also wanted to correct factual errors (such as the suggestion that Utah is 70% LDS–it’s not). Sorry if I went overboard though. I love this blog, would never want to step on anyone’s toes.

  307. Everyone knows that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young practiced polygamy and that BY and his followers practiced it in the Utah territory. We also know warren jeffs believes that the LDS are the great and abominable church. Rebecca is correct, the LDS hold no authority over the flds, the AUB, etc.
    No matter what the LDS church leaders say or do, those groups will continue to practice polygamy. Like Rebecca, I have on occasion corrected factual errors that have been posrted here. IMO, it is a law enforcement issue and pressure should be brought to bear on the LE people who are sitting on their hands. That pressure should come from citizens of all religions, including the LDS. I have contacted the US senators of my state regarding the federal tak force. Unfortunately, I cannot vote for Hatch or Shurtleff since I am not a Utah resident.

  308. Rebecca said: I also wanted to correct factual errors (such as the suggestion that Utah is 70% LDS–it’s not).

    best I found on quick google was from 2008 –
    that Mormons now make up 60.4 percent of the state’s population. The number is down from 60.7 percent last year.

    Read more:

    ok, I will recant 70%- but my point is as long as it is over 50% then they still have a voting block and ultimate control. maybe by the time I retire and move there on a part time basis they will start to loose their grip on one of the most beautiful natural states in the Union (IMHO).

    Walton – you crack me up!! thanks for keeping me tickled.

  309. It’s simple from a “normal” human and legal standpoint. We all operate our lives and make daily large and small decisions based on our personal beliefs – religious or not. You can believe anything you want no matter how outrageous is may be to others. But if any aspect of your beliefs requires actions that are against the laws of the land where you reside (i.e., murder, robbery, rape, coercion, etc.), then you SHOULD be prosecuted and suffer the legal consequences for your illegal actions — not your beliefs. Actions have evidence, beliefs, don’t.

    We should be all about the legal consequences for breaking American laws.

    However, what makes legal simplicity fly out the window is when your entire belief system is spoon-fed to you from birth and you’re abnormally kept under a virtual mushroom where the sun don’t shine (education, socialization, exposure to the outside world) as is the case with all young FLDS.

    Under such circumstances, do you really know your actions are illegal? And if you do, does it really matter in the face of your extremely controlled mind? Your brainwashing constantly reminds you the ONLY laws to abide are God’s laws because God is WAY more powerful than any terrestrial lawmakers.

    To the lifelong brainwashed, breaking God’s celestial laws renders MUCH worse consequences than those imposed by terrestrial laws. A mind THAT controlled will gladly suffer the terrestrial consequences rather than the celestial ones.

    The question is, how do we deal with that? I think the only answer we’ve come up with so far is to make even the “innocent” brainwashed suffer the terrestrial consequences. What gets in the way is the terrestrial powers that be. It gets more complicated when you mess religion in with powerful money and political agendas that do NOT rely on God’s consequences but DO rely on huge populations of religious voters.

  310. i think part of the problem is that we have beat to death the question of whether or not the LDS is Christian. We’ve talked about it in depth multiple times over a few years. It does nothing to clarify the situation with law breaking. To me, talking about LDS influence on politics is more meaningful, but it’s sort of hard to take action on. How do we demand that a religion do something? I guess the members of that church who are active here could talk to their leaders, but isn’t it more effective to keep a secular problem (prosecution of laws) in the secular realm? And to try to influence members of the government, no mater what their religion?

  311. I think this general discussion about the role played by faith and religion both in enabling the crimes and abuses of the FLDS and in allowing them to continue unchallenged as long as they have is critically important. It is an uncomfortable and messy issue – but it is an important conversation to have – and this forum has handled it as respectfully and intelligently as any place I’ve seen.

    My take: I don’t think the historical roots of FLDS doctrine are that important in the big picture. It is far more important to examine

    1. The doctrinal issues that lead to abuse. Unquestioned submission to leadership is always problematic, for one.

    2. The mechanisms of control in the hands of leaders. When leaders control over property and marriage decisions – that is an awesome amount of power – particularly when the residents have few life options outside the group.

    3. The opportunities for individual religious choice. When children are locked into the system either through child-marriage or education abuse that leaves them poorly equipped to survive elsewhere – are they really freely choosing their faith and lifestyle – or are they simply surviving the only way the know how?

    4. Obfuscation of evil. When abuses are presented to the outside world as the freely chosen lifestyle of a controlled, manipulated population – how do you get to the truth?

    I believe there has to be a clear line in the sand between the freedom to practice a particular faith – and allowing religious leaders access to the mechanisms of unlawful control over people’s lives.

    The religious argument sometimes muddies an otherwise clear issue. People need to be free to make their own choices and they don’t give up that freedom simply because they had the bad luck to be born into a coercive group that actively works to deny them access to those choices.

    Religious freedom is individual, not communal. Protections need to be individual. We should not protect the right of a group to control its members. We should only protect the rights of individuals to freely chose and practice their own faith.

  312. from:

    “in Utah about sixty percent of the population are members. That puts the state population of Saints at just over 1.5 million members. In Idaho, fourteen percent of the population are LDS; in Nevada, nine percent; Arizona, six percent; Oregon, four percent; and the rest of the states are at about three percent.”

  313. Extraordinarily well put, EJay.

  314. It gets more complicated when you mess religion in with powerful money and political agendas that do NOT rely on God’s consequences but DO rely on huge populations of religious voters.

    EJay said this on October 18, 2011 at 12:05 PM

    So that is why we need more clarity on exactly what “religious freedom” means. I think the vast majority of religious voters would be appalled by the systematic abuses of the FLDS – as well as the level of control they exercise over members.

    If the question is presented as, “should we prosecute these people for breaking the law even though they were following their religious beliefs”, the answer is likely to be “no” in a deeply religious community.

    If the question is presented as, “should religious leaders be free to commit crimes involving serious abuse, financial fraud and more by claiming their faith trumps the law”, I think you will more support for restrictions on that “freedom”.

    If religious voters feel their own faith is under attack, they will tend to unite against that attack. If there is a clear agenda aimed at removing the mechanisms of abuse while still supporting religious freedom in general, I think even Utah voters would come around.

    Forced or coerced marriages: No. Religious freedom does not give anyone the right to make marriage choices for someone else.

    Control over (non-church-related) employment and housing. No. Religious freedom does not give leaders the right to enforce compliance with their decrees by threatening members’ financial and domestic security.

    Control over local law-enforcement. No. The law is the law. Police uphold the law, not the dictates of local religious leaders.

    Education and child labor abuse: No. You *can* choose how to educate your own children. You *cannot* fail to educate them to state standards nor can you pull them out of school to serve as unpaid labor for your businesses.

    Lowest Common Denominator Defense: The FLDS should not be allowed to get away with measuring themselves against the worst cases in society. If an unmarried inner-city teen drops out of school and gets pregnant at 14 that represents a failure of society. It does not represent the bar that the FLDS needs to clear. If they manage to take better physical care of an poorly educated, “married” 14-year old mother – that does not count as a win.

  315. This just IN

    Thanks for the writing kudos folks.

    The fact remains that there are some of the most seriously mental Ill people in the world here in CCA/Hildale. I know by observing their behavior and spending twelve years in the Psy. biz.

    These people have called this trial on themselves. Anyone who attended church here back in the 70’s can tell you what was said. What was discussed then – has manifested now – and the world is entertained.
    The FIX you are pondering will come from within the participants when they are ready. Orson Wells couldn’t construct a Novel to match the Truth in consequences being visited on these people. Be mindful and respectful of your own thoughts lest ye be similarly visited. 🙂 A Grand Delusion was called for and received. We are all children of the one God at the end of the day and his voice is comforting. Trust that.

    Allow them their agency as you are allowed yours.
    Those who write books about this debacle are profits of pain.

  316. In case anyone’s interested, there’s a new Sister Wives article on the front page of the sltrib. Many people commenting that they should just be left alone. It appears that the public is still unclear on financial and civil abuses that go along with polygamy.

  317. “Profits of Pain” well that seems well pointed to Warren, Lyle and their various sidekicks and gophers, rather than people who raise awareness so further pain isnt inflicted.

    I think your finger missed which way the wind blows.

  318. ****Jonathan Turley claims that he represents both Islamic Jihad terrorist group founder and chief Sami Al-Arian and the “Sister Wives” crackpots pro bono, contrary to an earlier version of this post.

    This makes him even more sleazy as it indicates his commitment to their dangerous and harmful agendas.

    Turley claims he has no connection to Osama Bin Laden, but, in fact, the Al-Arians are closely connected to Bin Laden as noted below. ****

  319. Anonymous at 1;41 PM, AMEN to what you said, I remember hearing a Grand Delusion was going to happen throughout the 70’s , I think we’re seeing it now ! In the animal kingdom sheep have a leader { ram } male , of course & a dominant female { ewe }, do you notice the ram has many ewes besides the dominant female , & many lambs, just some similarities I’ve noticed in sheep & flds sheeple ! Horses, deer.elk, moose all males ( bucks ) have many does , more comparisons to flds sheeple I’ve seen lately there are other animals who practice a form of polygamy, but I don’t remember them right now. Sheep, horse, deer ,elk ,etc, are polygamous just like the flds sheeple in Short Creek , I’m not making excuses for the sheeple , just making comparisons & similarities about them . >> other-Anon

  320. Its a zoo out there!

  321. Note that less than two years elapsed from discovery of a problem to the filing of charges.

    Utah and Arizona: Please take notes.

    “King County prosecutors plan to bring a felony theft charge against Silas Potter Jr., the central figure in the financial scandal that rocked Seattle Public Schools in February….

    The district went to the auditor’s office in June 2010 to investigate why a $35,000 check from the Tacoma School District that was meant for Seattle Public Schools ended up in the bank account of the private organization that Potter helped establish….

    In late 2010…two School Board members went to the Prosecutor’s Office to report possible criminal conduct.

    The Prosecutor’s Office opened a secret investigation into the small-business program, using a special inquiry judge to obtain information, a source said previously.”

    The result: An investigation uncovered nearly $2 million dollars in district money spent of projects of questionable value or paid for work not performed.

  322. IMO the LDS (Joseph Smith and Brigham Young) are at the root of the FLDS problem, but I also agree that super long religious discussions aren’t going to make anyone change their mind, in fact, when it s a super long post like those extolling the LDS, I usually skip right over them.

  323. Slight change in topic: I discovered Susanna Barlow’s book, “What Peace There May Be” and found it very well written and compelling. Anyone know who her parents are?

    Also, in Irene Spencer’s book she wrote her mother had left polygamy and married into monogamy. Anyone know who Olive Allred Kunz married and when she left Morris Kunz? Thanks!

  324. Susanna Barlows parents are Ivan and Carol Nielsen. She married a son of Nephi Barlow, one of IW barlows sons and cousins of the short creek barlows

  325. I know it might look as if people are just trying to “profit from others’ pain” to some, but the flds practices are something that must be exposed. The books by those who were flds have helped raise public awareness, to me there is no doubt of that. Frankly, I thought most of them showed restraint, considering what the authors had been through.

    There are thousands who have been flds or are still trapped in it, that deserve compensation and will never receive it, except hopefully an emotionally better life after getting out of the group. I for one am glad a few people that wrote about their flds years did in fact earn something from writing. They have led such unusual lives, and their life stories need to be told to others.
    I consider the group an institutionalized slavery entity prospering right here on US soil. I still wish the whole thing could be shut down. The kids’ minds are so tweaked by such a young age.
    In other strict sect news, some crazy stuff just happened with forced hair and beard cutting amongst the Amish. I know a fair amount about them, too. I have the opinion it’s high time they changed some of their practices. Well, sorry for the little digression.. Wouldn’t it be great if things were simpler to solve about all this.

  326. Thanks LTG!

  327. Kody Brown and his harem seek to improve their financial situation by enrolling in a pyramid marketing scheme.

  328. Just what [other than TV appearances] does this man do for a living, to support his ‘family’? With several bankruptcies [and other possible financial shinanigans, that others have mentioned, this is his new venture….fleecing people, under the guise of ‘detoxing the world’ of excess fat? Argh! I’ll keep my excess fat, thank you very much! We’re old friends!

  329. “The Brown Family has endorsed Liv’s mission to “Detox the World… one family at a time” through “Global Operation Detox”

    aka “GOD”


    Well they can run up another 100 grand in debt chasing this pipe dream and then, ooops back to BK!

  330. Our mailing address is:

    1345 W 1600 N, Suite 201, Orem, UT 84057

    Our telephone: 877-449-****

    Our fax: 1-888-683-**** (888-68-FAX US)

    Copyright (C) 2011 Liv International All rights reserved.


    Who woulda thunk it, this scam is out of the MLM capital of the world, No. Utah!

  331. And the million dollar question is….. Where is John Lester..!?!?!?

  332. that is the first name that popped into my head also! We must hang out with the same weirdos.

  333. Well that knucklehead was so off the wall, its what brought a lot of us together back when the rescue first happened..

    I recall the Trib cutting post words down because of his massive spams and cut and pastes.

    Oh, then there was that tif he got into with Pliggy – Lester actually called the FBI on Pliggy because he thought he might get blood atoned for spamming Pliggy’s email list.

    Its still up on Pliggys site – HILARIOUS!

    Fun reading, esp if you know the characters. I dunno how Al Holm is doing now that he got back into the FLDS, but his website is still up, though its gone stale.

    This thread is rich and a good example of some of the craziness surrounding John Lester – a MLM geek who moved from Chicago to SLC and now in Brigham City as I recall? he he.

  334. OMG its the MLM genius in person – bald, headband, butt bag and all.

  335. Still getting a kick out of this guy, have had waayyy too much fun playing with his mind.

    This guy actually claimed to be a 40 yr old virgin (after watching the video, you may not be surprised) but then he wanted to be a polygamist – who had underage and bisexual wives.

    Guess for those nights he was still afraid to make a move. Dunno.

    But hilarious! In a sick sort of way!

  336. Thanks LTG – I was surprised to find my database did not include her later spouse. I read the book. It was different, refreshing, sad, and liberating. I hope that is exactly what it meant for her, perhaps even in that order.

  337. Oh dang, wish I hadnt looked at this one, Lester is chatting with himself starting on 1-13-2009 on an LDS “anarchist” website chit chatting about LDS and polygamist theology.

    Its rather disturbing.

  338. Yeah, that’s typical Lester. There are none so blind as those who will not see. A whole chat room full of people carefully avoiding Matthew 22:29-30 while arguing against it.

  339. Yeah, and the interesting thing, is he somehow wiped a huge amount of his online footprint off the web.

    He joined the predominate Church in SLC and yet he visits sites like that?

    tsk tsk. Well, that was my John Lester rant for the year.

    Like Hugh he has ridden off into the sunset.

  340. third cousin,
    the man she married in the book is the same man she is married to today. The both have decided to live monogamously. Word is, she is writing a sequel to the book.

  341. It’s nice to see the back of him.


    Please come and lend you expertise about how the Browns are manipulating the show, etc to fulfill their wish of legalizing Polygamy.

    Also, comment on the MLM!
    This is a great chance to explain to many that don’t know the harms of polygamy – why it is so terrible.
    In other words, I am calling on the experts!!! LOL
    If you read the comments, so many don’t get it …at all.

  343. I really don’t CARE about the Browns or the Darger’s, my connection is with the FLDS : Short Creek flds , even though I’m considered an ” apostate ” by my flds sheeple family , that’s where my feelings & concern is with . Let’s be more concerned & blog about the Short Creek Flds sheeple & their sister settlements , these sheeple that’s where biggest problems are, that’s where we should turn our concern , attention & blog about them more . >>>other-Anon

  344. Just a heart-warming story on faithfulness, while we continue our slog through the flds lifestyle swamp- for a little break, google Couple Married 72 Years Dies Holding Hands” (I’m not good at cutting and pasting) Just thought some of you would enjoy this story even though it’s a little sad. But I think it’s more beautiful than sad. It shows the faithfulness we were meant to know and show

  345. Other-anon,

    It’s not just about you. If you’ve got something constructive to add to the conversation, that would help.

  346. Betty ,I have added to the conversations to topics off & on posting on this website site , not all the time , Betty it’s not just about you either, we can’t have conversations about YFZ , Short Creek sheeple ? That’s really where the news is , the biggest problems are in Short Creek, YFZ, & places of refuge , I believe that’s what this website is all about , when we diverge & talk about other weirdos out there , we lose the focus of trying to help the Short Creek sheeple realize what’s happening to them , in any way we can . Writing helps if we stay on topic of YFZ, Short Creek ,etc, talking about Short Creek ,etc, helps too , that’s where the focus needs to be . Betty, is that constructive enough for you ? >>>>>>>> other-Anon

  347. What’s the name of this website ? FLDS TEXAS ,< not Kody Brown Polygamist or Joe Darger Polygamist , they made up their minds to live that way & neither you or I can change their views .>>> other-Anon

  348. Just my opinion, but I am getting tired of being solicited to go to and comment on another blog. I have no intetrest in the Browns or the Dargers and will not visit nor post on sister wives blog. My focus is on the abuses
    and illegal activities within the flds.

    Would sister wives like it if other people used their blog to solicit readers and commenters away?? Perhaps the dreary weather is getting to me, but enough already.

  349. The comment by anon.. at 5:23 was by me.

  350. Other-Anon,

    Sorry, I was in a hurry to leave the house and my post was a bit curt. I’ll try again to communicate better. If you actually look at the link about the Browns, it’s about their efforts to legalize polygamy. the only thing more pertinent to this blog than the legal status of polygamy are the actual court cases going on in Texas and over the UEP. This blog has discussed polygamy of all sorts; Muslim, Jewish, various Christian polygamists, various Mormon polygamists. We have posted studies and reviews. We followed carefully the court case in Canada and at least one of the posters was a contributor. Most of the people who post here care passionately about polygamy and want it stopped. Some spend their lives helping those hurt by polygamy. And ultimately, it’s the administrator who defines when a topic is forbidden, but you seem to want to take that role on yourself.

    Also, you say that you are only concerned about the community of the FLDS, but then you want to pretend that THAT has nothing to do with polygamy. The patriarchal power of Warren Jeffs comes directly from polygamy, from controlling who marries whom and who has the right to stay with his family. To talk about him and not talk about polygamy is absurd.

    Plenty of people who have left fundamental Mormon groups have also left polygamy. So it is quite possible to change someone who is involved in polygamy.

    Finally, it’s a matter of catching more flies with honey than with vinegar. It’s fine if you have a focus on what you want to talk about. Instead of telling others what NOT to talk about, try to switch their attention to what you DO want to talk about. Start a topic, bring something up, find an article. Steer the conversation the way you want it to go. That works a lot better than informing this community that they need to speak only to your passions, not to their own.

  351. Oh Betty, I didn’t know you knew everything . When I was growing up we called people who knew everything ” know it alls ” JMO, If I’m allowed to have one from you . Like I said you know everything & the rest of us don’t know anything , are you an EXPERT on polygamy ? you sure act like you are , other people have opinions you may not like , allow the rest of us OUR opinions . Stop bloviating , yes that’s a word .

  352. How about those Packers?

    Bet none of those fine football players are from Hilldale or Colorado City.

  353. The flds situation is tremendously frustrating. There’d be more to discuss constructively if there wasn’t so much secretiveness and deception with flds, plus their confusing last name situation due to all the re-assignments and close intermarriage.
    American-based polygamy clearly has easy-to-follow patterns- the big organized groups do many of the same things. The “independents” are “inspired” by same “scriptures” as flds, kingstons, etc….i.e., J Smith, B Young, and all their fine-featherd ilk, who were just more deluded guys who wasted ink, time, and many lives around them, puffing themselves out with Joseph Smith-originated nonsense. Each generation out there gets guys and gals who will swallow the foolishness and run with it because it’s all around them, and the stigma against being anything else seems pretty strong in my view.
    Dargers are related to flds, I believe- saw the name in more than one place with my reading. Centennial Park, all related to flds- it’s all the same extended families and businesses, seems to me-flds is just getting most press and scrutiny. Truthful details about flds are not easy to come by, in spite of all that. I see the same people and situations duplicated in reports because flds won’t be truthful. They are too terrified and too conditioned. The less-terrified “independents” will give interviews. After all, they want to be accepted as normal.
    If people get off track a bit talking about somebody who’s plyggin out there besides flds, it’s temporary, but to me, it’s very related. ( Where I live, lds is not an ORIGINALLY culturally DOMINANT entity. And it never will be. Plenty of people here know about lds beliefs and want nothing to do with it.(Thank God!) But we have the right to watch, blog, and wonder- because all these plyg activities are happening in OUR nation, and the crazy plyg talk (and shows) have worked into the major media.
    The vast majority where I am are Protestant (MANY denominations)-or Catholic background. People here are too well grounded in a more historically deep and Bible-oriented social fabric than mormonism (which, as we will recall for a moment, is actually still pretty -(sorry)- YOUNG.– and it’s very plagiaristic of several other much older faiths. Which is why it’s so easy to spot as false, for most people where I am.) I have no fear of lds domination. Call me naive if you like. It ain’t gonna happen, because so many are leaving lds even while it keeps spouting that it’s growing.)

    But out there in flds territory? Part of the problem in curtailing it is lds saturation of the whole region, and the expansive, hard-to-police geography.
    The huge western US states geographically are useful to flds and the other plyg organizations and families. This all grew out of lds original teachings. SLC can distance themselves all they want, that’s fine and dandy, but the books and many of the men they revere are the same.

    But these fun-fundies who are home-grown from Utah?? It’s all just lds writing-inspired, whether you want to quote this one or that one, it’s all the same cloth. Why split hairs? Besides, some of us have fewer hairs to split, after looking at this mess for years!
    Hey, btw, I have had a terrible time with tiny soil ants for a year! When I heard on “Mormon hair-poof!” that some flds gals may use sugar-water or cornstarch to keep their do’s in shape, all I could think of was, they must have no ants around! Dear God! Hmm, seems to me somebody somewhere mentioned lots of Aqua-Net with flds. (a former flds gal.) can’t recall who said it.

    If only we HAD the real facts to guide our discussions- we , like the general public, continue to be deprived of full truth about flds in spite of all the coverage. We are busy with other things, we can’t devote 24-7 to flds watching. And if we could, or could stand to, we’d still get deceived when possible.

    I am hoping that if this gal who got out last week can never divulge anything- (easy to see why she’d be too terrified to, maybe for life)– that someone else will in fact go ahead and spill more beans some day. The safer they feel, the better chance we will hear more, and have more solid stuff to discuss.

    I’ll repeat- I wish the whole enterprise could be shut down, but I can’t see that as realistic because flds has so much money coming in, and so many ways to hide who they really are when they bid on contracts, plus apparently many people don’t care who they are when they give them work. I don’t know how that problem is going to get solved. They have so many kids, I don’t know how it will ever be totally curtailed. Word of their true identity has to just keep getting out. Hopefully more and more people will refuse to give them business, and more prosecutions will keep draining them.

  354. Oh Betty, I didn’t know you knew everything . When I was growing up we called people who knew everything ” know it alls ” JMO, If I’m allowed to have one from you . Like I said you know everything & the rest of us don’t know anything , are you an EXPERT on polygamy ? you sure act like you are , other people have opinions you may not like , allow the rest of us OUR opinions . Stop bloviating , yes that’s a word .

    Anonymous said this on October 19, 2011 at 5:57 PM

    Dear Anonymous,

  355. Oh come on, Betty doesn’t bloviate. And if you want to say I do it, I don’t care. It takes time and effort to explain something, and there are complex things on the docket here at times. Betty’s great. She’s no big ego. Cut the names, anon 5:57 – who was arguing back and forth with betty a bit there. I thought you knew better. She tries hard and has plenty constructive to say. Now, since I am sure you think I bloviate, I’m going away for a day or two, to make you happier.

  356. Thanks , RUTHIES GIRL I needed all little humor about now ! If all BETTY wants to do is argue with anyone who she doesn’t agree with, she better find somebody else who’ll listen to her , I’m not listening anymore to an E X P E R T .

  357. What’s the name of this website ? FLDS TEXAS ,>> other-Anon

    Anonymous said this on October 19, 2011 at 4:40 PM

    Other Anon,
    We will discuss whatever we want to discuss. You are not the moderator or owner of this blog. Buzz off.

  358. And a Thank You to you, Fred. Always good to see you drop by.

  359. Thanks Fred, always good to see you drop by.

  360. Always glad to be of service.

  361. Thanks , RUTHIES GIRL I needed all little humor about now ! If all BETTY wants to do is argue with anyone who she doesn’t agree with, she better find somebody else who’ll listen to her , I’m not listening anymore to an E X P E R T .

    Anonymous said this on October 19, 2011 at 6:31 PM

    EXPERT is something you are not.

  362. Anon, you didn’t quite get it.

    That was a FU, but didn’t have the time to ask Fred to pass it on.

    Betty is spot on. The name of this website is FLDS Texas and most of us do not limit our conversations to flds in Texas, nor should we. IMO this is all about the evils of polygamy and what we can do to stop it.

  363. Dear FRED, apparently you are one . pass it on Fred , pass it on .

  364. The Eldorado Success is reporting the possibility of the remaining 3 FLDS defendants taking plea deals. Merril had a hearing today. Haven’t heard what was decided or not decided there, but his trial starts on Halloween.

    Wendell’s attorney want the state to assist in finding the 3 women Wendell was married to, apparently he’s misplaced them. Wonder how long he’ll stay on the payroll if he continues on that line.

    It also says that Leroy J. Steed’s case is on hold. Not sure exactly what that means, I thought it was set for jury trial to begin the Tuesday after Thanksgiving.

  365. Again, Fred, smitten.

  366. Thanks, PT.

    So Wendell can’t find (at least) three of his wives?

    Gotta wonder where Maggie is hanging out these days.

    Not even a tweet from Matt?

  367. Matt’s out of town, so I don’t know who, if any, was there for the Standard Times. My best information says that nothing happened.

    I think Wendell wanting the State of Texas to find his wives is funny. Is he asking the State to raid the YFZ, Colorado house of hiding, Pringle and Short Creek to find the women? That would be interesting and they might find the Wall girls’ mother and younger sisters if they do so, so that works for me. Just have a coordinated multi-state raid and if you happen to find Teresa Jo and her missing baby all the better.

  368. Nobody loves me like my mother(s) and she(they) could be jiving too.

    Listening to a litlle BB King and had to put into a plural perseptive.

  369. edit: perspective

  370. Betty,

    Ditto that, well said.

    As I recall, these are “Open Discussions” – anyone who forgets can check the thread title – and so pretty much anything goes, within reason.

    Some things require their own thread, those happen often, and generally those threads stay on topic.

    If things like sister wives, Darger, Brooke, certain polygamy proponents, LDS theology etc get worn out people can skip over them or we move on.

    As far as the Sister wives thing goes, IMHO that is still on the hotplate, as it has the potential of serious consequences – though I think their attempt is a joke – still it bears watching and I think we can bear a weekly link to a story with no harm done. I visit that site too.

    All that said, I’ve heard there have been a few people banned from this site in the past for repeated bad behavior, though dont see anyone of late doing that, so I recommend, if you dont like a post or a poster than just skip over it.

    Are there any perfect blogs out there? I know a bunch which are shut down or have gone silent.

  371. Other anon,

    If there is some issue that is concerning you right now, or you know of someone who needs help you think we can give, I’d love to hear it. Don’t want to shut down a real request for help. I just think that there are lots of appropriate topics here.

  372. I thought that Wendell was tossed out recently (in the last few months) by Warren. Maybe WSJ hid his wives so that they would not be available to testify and Wendell is actually worried about them.

    If he does know where they are, what would the strategy of asking the state to help him find them? Maybe he’s afraid the state DOES know where they are and he’s feeling that out? Maybe it’s all about causing more expense and trouble and delay.

    Other ideas?

  373. I’m a big BB King fan, also.

  374. If I could I would get the sheeple part of my family to understand that wsj /lyle are frauds , but alas they won’t believe that until wsj/lyle tears them apart & ruins their lives . I can’t tell them they have frauds for a profit , they wouldn’t believe me , so I don’t even try, it’s sad when some of my own family wsj’s BS ,they still think he’s been wronged , nobody can get through to them ,they’re sheeple & I can’t make them listen to me , pure & simple. Now if the base at YFZ isn’t a water tower or a pedestal for a metal statue , could it be for a watch tower ? I think it might be high enough to observe the sheeple , one eye on them to watch them like a prison , another on the gentiles & apostates outside their fence / prison wall ? Makes we wonder ? >>>> other-Anon

  375. A coordinated effort to locate Wendell’s wives works for me, too.\, PT.

    It’s probably not at the top of Lyle’s wish list right now.

  376. That must be really hard to watch, Other-anon. Sorry you have to go through that.

  377. THANKS, Betty for understanding my feelings for sheeple part of my family , I can’t help them , even if I could help them they wouldn’t believe me , their answer would be I’m evil , wicked , apostate, & going to hell , THANKS again . >>>> other-Anon

  378. other-Anon’s post reminds me… I’ve been wondering if there are any recent pictures of that “base” construction thingy at YFZ. Anyone know if our favorite “pilot” has snapped any more pictures out at the ranch? Just curious.

  379. I’m sorry you have to go through that too other-anon. It is hard when you don’t have any control over the situation and just have to watch them crash and burn.

    Maybe, hopefully, as more people buy a clue the cracks will get bigger and bigger until it explodes. That is my hope.

  380. I’m in the same boat you are, other-Anon… no communication with so many of my “sheeple” as you put it. (They look like “zombies” to me.) There’s no way I could tolerate actually living there now. So… I deeply appreciate eyes and ears like yours to pass along any observations you can share. You sound stressed but hopeful, which is how I am. Hang in there… I KNOW how tough it is.


  382. Other Anon,

    Sounds like I’ll have good and interesting company in going to hell.

  383. According the the FLDS I’ll be joining you 3C. We should have a grand ole time. Satan probably won’t know what to do with us.

  384. We’ve been getting on each other’s nerves a little lately, but I have always appreciated the freedom I have felt on this blog to express really anything related to the topic of mormon polygamy, and there has been discussion of non-mormon polygamy and discussion of mormondom in general.

    I have a tendency to want to connect all the historical dots and that can sometimes offend those concerned so deeply with the present.

  385. EJay , I’m not stressed but I’m hopeful things will work out in Short Creek , maybe from their system falling apart or maybe some unforseen event , Who knows ? I just hope things will straighten out there in my lifetime , bad situations can have good results later given time , we’ll just have to be patient ,watch ,pray & hope for the best . >>>> other-Anon

  386. Keep the faith other-Anon

  387. Amen, other-Anon.

    Ummm… PT… which faith?? 😉 (couldn’t resist)

  388. PT and friends, I don’t know who has read the book “Good Omens” but oh man! And I’m only (according to the Kindle) about 20% through the book. Please don’t get mad at me for posting off topic – it’s actually pretty much on.

  389. Pick one EJay!!! There are many to choose from.

  390. Has anyone read the book “Patron Saint of Butterflies”? It was a children’s book about living in an abusive religious commune. I thought it was awesome, but maybe a bit much for kids to absorb. It’s been banned in some kid’s libraries, I hear.

  391. Oh no, PT and EJay: there but one. And if you are magically pulled through the veil by your priesthoodlum (to borrow a favorite term coined I believe by Stamp), you picked the right one.

  392. “there IS but one.” Proofread dammit!

  393. 3C… gag me with a spoon (to put it tritely)!

  394. Betty, I love that title. I’d like to check that one out.

  395. Hee Hee. See, we haven’t lost our senses of humor!

  396. Oh, and actually I plan to workshop with Fred any posts I make that might be deemed “off topic.” Y’all know what that means.

  397. This story about Mormonism showed on Australian TV on Tuesday night. Don’t know whether it’s geoblocked or not.

  398. The book was available as a Nook or Kindle book for fairly cheap. May not be at your local library anymore because it was deemed too scary for kids, even though it’s about kids.

  399. Interesting news, Lindsay Lohan is handcuffed after violating probation, and Qhaddafi is killed, within 24 hrs of each other.

    Not a good year for megalomaniacs, Warren could attest to that as well..

    Charlie Sheen gives a ditto.

  400. Betty, is the book you mentioned based on fact ?

  401. Tonight on Polygamy : What Love is This ? Troy Bowles, an ex AUB member will present his “book reviews” of some pro – polygamy books.
    Here is the link :

  402. It is fiction, based on the author’s real childhood living in a religious commune in New York state. There are some points in the story that are true to her life, for instance, the children were separated from their parents at 6 months and raised in a common nursery. They were not returned to their parents until they were older than about 6 years. This was to “imprint” them on the group and the group leader rather than on their parents.

  403. BIB


    Troy is one of my favorites on the trib, he wrote an editorial for them a month or two back as well as many thread posts calling out apologists.

  404. Troy is a regular poster on Disqus for the Salt Lake Tribune whom we all know and respect. I think you will enjoy his presentation this evening.

  405. Anybody heard anything about William the Profit lately ? He started putting mailers out & mailers out, but haven’t heard much about him recently . Of course Thugly will will be in the news until the cows come home . Any info on William would be appreciated . >>> other-Anon

  406. I think he goes by Cosmo on the SLtrib now. Usually seen on all the FLDS and assorted polygamy articles there.

  407. The Austin American Statesman on Raymond Merril Jessop’s appeal:

  408. John Llewellyn has a new post on his blog :

  409. A new article in the Vancouver Sun by Daphne Bramham :

  410. The Austin American Statesman on Raymond Merril Jessop’s appeal:
    Third Cousin said this on October 20, 2011 at 2:36 PM

    I read it as “Bleeding the sheeple” of their hard earn money to pay lawyers for appeals regardless of how unlikely they will win.

    Reminds me of the look on my dog’s face when I get home from work and the trash is dumped over. No, it wasn’t ME that dumped the trash over, It wasn’t ME!!!!

  411. I ❤ Betty!

    Please my good woman, continue to always speak your mind. You are appreciated!

  412. The Austin American Statesman on Raymond Merril Jessop’s appeal:
    Third Cousin said this on October 20, 2011 at 2:36 PM

    From that article:
    “Prosecutors introduced church records that placed Jessop and the girl at the ranch near Eldorado in July, August and December 2004, but no witness or evidence accounted for their whereabouts when the girl was impregnated in November…

    “There was absolutely no evidence that the offense charged in the indictment took place in the state of Texas,” Broden told a three-judge panel of the 3rd Court of Appeals.

    But Ed Marshall, an appellate lawyer with the state attorney general’s office, said jurors heard enough evidence to render a guilty verdict…

    “We know that (they) were on the ranch prior to conception. We know they were married on the ranch. And we know they were cohabitating at the time,” Marshall said. “Those things all tell us that a juror can infer that cohabitation on the ranch was continuing.”

    That right there separates Texas from Utah. Utah would have required absolute proof that they were within Utah’s borders when the child was conceived. Nothing less would have been accepted as evidence of statutory rape.

    The idea that Utah’s Supreme court overturned WSJ’s conviction in the Elissa Wall’s case still boggles my mind. They accepted the jury’s verdict that she was raped. They also accepted the jury’s conclusion that WSJ forced her into the marriage. They could not, however, allow a line to be drawn between the forced marriage and WSJ’s intent that she be raped – without the jury explicitly considering that issue.

    I ask you: Is it remotely possible that a supreme court in ANY other state in the US would struggle with the connection between forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry (and share a bed) with a 19-year-old man with the intention that she be raped? I’d be interested to learn if Utah’s Supremes are that picky with other issues (say violent crimes or financial fraud) or do they save their high standards of proof for crimes against young girls?

  413. Betty , Ejay & PT : there are sheeple parts of my family who will not spend but 5 minutes talking to me ,can’t be seen by the other sheeple talking with apostates , those sheeple who are seen conversing with apostates ,will be reported to WSJ’s henchmen , called on the carpet for talking to apostates, & told to leave town wrecking more families, sometimes I get my sheeple family talking with me more than 5 minutes , but that’s rare . Now if I go to St. George area they will talk to me at least 5 minutes , others don’t talk so long & quickly leave , still others won’t talk to us “apostates ” at all , as you can see from my description of life there , a lot of hypocrisy with the sheeple >>> other-Anon

  414. trib article on the appeal

  415. other Anon

    One of the reasons they wont talk, is they are afraid the conversation will drift to “current events” and of course the true blue sheeples need to keep the wool pulled over.

    My advice is to keep the topic away from that, if you want longer conversations. If they bring it up, then you can talk, but expect it to go downhill fast from there if you come off as judgmental.

    Recommend offering supportive comments – they may talk longer. Mix it up, surprise them.


  416. I lost faith in the Utah courts when they ruled Brian David Mitchell incompetent. The federal prosecutors took the case and in a relatively short time got a guilty verdict.

  417. Stamp , I’ve tried that but the majority of sheeple part of my family don’t want to be seen at all talking or conversing with any of the ” apostate ” parts of my family including me, my closest sheeple relatives will quickly leave the store here after 5 – 10 minutes , so all I say to them is Hello , I just can’t talk about anything to people who won’t listen , that is the sheeple part of my family , I stay away from anything having to do with WSJ or their belief system , but it still doesn’t make any difference to them , as I said before I rarely talk to them , apparently that’s the way they want it . >>>> other-Anon

  418. I lost faith in the Utah courts when they ruled Brian David Mitchell incompetent. The federal prosecutors took the case and in a relatively short time got a guilty verdict.
    chemist said this on October 20, 2011 at 6:53 PM

    I would tend to agree after reading this article:

  419. other-Anon, I’m betting it’s not so much the way THEY (your sheeple) want it as it is the way wsj / lyle want it. When they weigh what they BELIEVE the consequences are (like losing everything including their salvation), it becomes necessary to let YOU go… because they have fallen under the tyranny of mind control… years and years of it! The world (generally speaking) sees them as cowards; they see themselves as “holding on to the iron rod” and “enduring to the end.” They are told over and over again that all this persecution is PROOF of their faith and righteousness. YOU are the one who hasn’t been strong and courageous enough to stay. The kicker is that they are also brainwashed with massive doses of guilt: “If you had exerted enough faith and were more righteous, your prophet wouldn’t be in jail.” In other words, sheeple, YOU screwed up.

    What I’ve said all along… and I think you intimated before… real change has to come from within. The best WE can do is be here for them when/if they realize they have viable options and choices outside the deception and tyranny. Also, if you see or know about abuse… report it! Law enforcement needs legitimate complaints and evidence before they can act.

  420. I know this isn’t a good time, but new thread? Just sometime soon. Getting cumbersome.

  421. MMM Yes.

    Please continue from General Discussion #66

    — Admin

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