SEARCH WARRANTS UPHELD!!!


The 3rd Court of Appeals in Austin has upheld the search warrants for the YFZ ranch.

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on August 26, 2011.

292 Responses to “SEARCH WARRANTS UPHELD!!!”

  1. Now that this is behind us, let’s put twitter to good use and send Greg Abbott tweets requesting that he bring charges against Naomi Jessop Jeffs and Sally Wayman Jeffs Nielsen.

  2. Thanks for posting — this was interesting reading. It’s SO good to know Judge Walther’s decisions were upheld and the search warrants were justified.

  3. It seems that future flds appeals on the search warrants will be fruitless. That is a good thing.

  4. I think that Lehi’s will be fruitless because it is identical to Emack’s. The others will also be incorporating things they think are errors that took place in the trial. I know that Raymond’s is scheduled for oral arguments in October and Keate’s was denied oral arguments.

  5. Is there a higher court than the 3rd COA that it can be appealed to? Texas Supreme Court? Federal Court, etc.

  6. Yep……..many more steps to the appeal process but as with other actors in this drama the prosses may take longer than the sentences. Interesting the way things work when the powers that be want to “target a religion”.

  7. Not targeting a religion. Targeting child abusers. With all the evidence that should be obvious even to you, ZXC.

  8. It was obvious to the 3rd Court of Appeals that it wasn’t “targeting a religion”, but most apologists won’t accept that. It’s really funny to me ZXC that you liked the 3rd Court’s ruling when they gave the children back, now you don’t like it. Pretty picky aren’t you.

    There is no religion called child abuse.

  9. Really do not see how anyone can support warren jeff’s actions after reading and hearing about the evidence against him. 119 year sentence, at least the underage flds girls will be safe from him for a few decades.

  10. Is there a higher court than the 3rd COA that it can be appealed to? Texas Supreme Court? Federal Court, etc.

    chemist said this on August 28, 2011 at 7:45 AM

    Yes, The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, that where Emack’s next appeal will be heard.

    http://www.cca.courts.state.tx.us/

    If Emack loses in the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, the next court he can appeal to is the US Supreme Court in Washington D.C. No more appeals after US Supreme Court. Most likely the decision of the lower court will be upheld.

  11. targeting a religion were the words of the man who wrote the laws to target a religion….they are not mine. WSJ was in an Arizona prison on charges that were dropped while the raid was executed . There is an old saying about the ends justifying the means………. in the end the courts will rule on the issue and we will see if “targeting a religion” is justifyable to catch a pervert…… Glossing over the means used to catch a pervert seems to be normal for this group. Be glad that noone picks up a phone and makes a call about some boogie man in your church.

  12. As far as supporting Jeffs, the words have never hit the page from this computer. The issue isn’t Jeffs the issue is illegal seizure of evidence. Jeffs believes his actions were justified based on his religion and he made that perfectly clear. I suggest that those that spout the words of Smith do an objective fact check and argue those points, the conclusion should be interesting. perhaps the State of Texas needs to “target” a few more religions or better yet take the various religious books one line at a time and simply strike the objectionable words and phrases that offend secular authorities, sure beats “targeting” one church at a time.

  13. A Texan: Thanks for explaining the appeals process.

    So far two courts have ruled on the search warrants and the admissibility of the evidence. Both courts have upheld the warrants and the evidence. Emack can now try for a 3rd court and possibly a 4rth court per the appeals process explained by A Texan. His 7 year sentence may have been served by the time he gets through the 4rth court.
    Illegal activities under the guise of religion are still illegal activities and can be prosecuted as such.

  14. IMO because the appeals court unanimously against Emack, most likely the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals will either refuse to hear the appeals case or support the lower court ruling. The lawyers can then appeal direct to US Supreme Court, but unless they can convince the US Supreme Court of some compelling reason to hear the appeal, the US Supreme will most likely refuse to give cert to case ending all appeal avenues.

    The reason the defense lawyers might continue the appeals process is that if in the unlikely event the defense lawyers prevail, it would force mistrials for all the other defendants including Warren Jeffs. A mistrial or a reversal of guilty verdict would remove Emack from the sex offender registry. So even if he served out his sentence, it would make sense to continue appeal if he has the funds. Emack after finishing his sentence will have to provide LE proof of his whereabouts or face return to prison under the sex offender laws.

    IMO even if Emack continues appeals, the courts all the way to US Supreme Court will sustain the guilty verdict.

    The enhanced sex offender registry laws are a result of the child protect act of 2003, that was pushed by John Walsh of the America’s Most Wanted TV show and Elizabeth Smart, a polygamy victim.

    Funny how what goes around comes around.

  15. ZXC @2:01,
    Do the ends justify the means? ABSOLUTELY! Texas didn’t target a religion, they targeted a closed off compound and arrested 12 men – eight of whom are in prison. They also found the evidence they needed to provide justice for 24 underage girls ‘married’ to Warren Jeffs – who is now serving a life sentence for his crimes.

    It’s hard to comprehend how monumental this is when one is engulfed in the fundementalist fog.

  16. ZXC, even if the laws raising the marriage age hadn’t been changed, it doesn’t change the fact that neither of these girls could consent to sex with a 50 year old man. They couldn’t under the old law and they can’t under the new law. What the law did was enhance the penalty for parts of it, but Warren’s charge for the 12 year old would have been the same regardless and the sentencing options would have been the same. He’s toast regardless of whether he was sitting in an Arizona jail or on the ranch.

    Also, suppose the search warrant hadn’t been upheld, the was carrying the audio of him raping the 12 year old around in his red Cadillac. The Nevada traffic stop has never been in question.

  17. If I remember correctly, Keate would be the first one who could challenge the law enhancing the punishment and the court denied oral arguments in that case.

  18. Keate got 33 years and was quaified for the enhanced penalty. The jury deliberated for only a few hours and found him guiilty of sexual assault of a child.

  19. Raymond wasn’t qualified but Keate and Leroy were. Abram was too if I remember correctly. I don’t think Dutson Jr was.

  20. ZXC

    Too bad for you, if you watched the trials, you would have seen them convicting one child rapist after another.

    None were convicted for their religion.

    That WAS used as an excuse, esp by Warren, but that didnt stick to the wall very well, now did it?

    No, child raping isnt covered by “Freedom of Religion”

    Too bad for you, ya better follow the straight and narrow from here on out!

  21. More was changed than just the age of consent with Hildebrands “religion targeting” laws. The escalade tape was identical to the “evidence” in the church yet the raid was needed to gather more info. If the transcripts were correct I recall no last names ….not much but moaning and prayer. Ya need a raid to tie everything together. You need to change bigamy laws and the age of consent to get the number of men that were tried. This fiasco isn’t over untill the last gavel and if it all falls apart because of one error it will be quite a shame. “targeting a religion” is a delicate business and nothing about the raid was delicate.

  22. Sis…Texas did target a religion. The author or the bill targeting a religion said publicly that he “targeted a religion”. What don’t you get about the words “target a religion”.
    What I do not have time to research is how close to the teachings of Smith were WSJs actions. He wasn’t playing rock and roll while he had his jollies, the man was conducting a religious ceremony complete with Amens and other church members in attendance. Looks like Smith may have invented a hech of a religion.

  23. Stanp…………ease off the veiled threats. I am neither FLDS, LDS or a polygamist. Too bad for you. It seems that many here aren’t open to objective discussion only the party line. When you have an agenda I suggest you simply state it up front and save everyone the notion that you are not a propogandist………you may have reached your desired outcome without all the constitutional issues and this boondogle may have been over years ago.

  24. Jeffs believes his actions were justified based on his religion and he made that perfectly clear.

    ZXC said this on August 28, 2011 at 2:09 PM

    WTF are you talking about? Warren Jeffs made NOTHING “perfectly clear” because he stood before the court for days on end and “answered them nothing!” He made NOTHING clear, nor did he attempt to hide his perverted crimes. Warren Jeffs was deaf, dumb and mute and I have no doubt that he had no doubt recognizing that what he was doing was wrong because he said in his own words “If the world knew what I was doing, they’d hang me from the highest tree.”

    Warren Jeffsl is nothing but a pedophile pervert. Go brandish your message elsewhere, ZXC because we don’t buy your BS.

  25. WSJ was in an Arizona prison on charges that were dropped while the raid was executed .

    ZXC said this on August 28, 2011 at 2:01 PM

    No, he was in a regular county jail in Kingman – NOT an Arizona prison! Also, the Arizona charges were dropped a couple of years after the Texas raid on the YFZ ranch.

    You come on here and spew nothing but BS. Check out the facts before you post your lies.

  26. The issue isn’t Jeffs the issue is illegal seizure of evidence.
    ZXC said this on August 28, 2011 at 2:09 PM .

    Gee ZXC, the Texas Third Court of Appeals just threw this argument out a couple of days ago. It was NOT deemed an ‘illegal seizure of evidence”.

    Go read the latest news before you come on here spouting lies.

  27. No lies on this end..read………… The original post was in response to a question about the entire appeals process. The process isn’t over Anon……your peedjuiices are showing much the same way they have shown since day one. Perhaps you can answer the question that I posed to this blog and I will be a bit more direct this time. Is it your opinion that the religion of Smith perverted Jeffs or could it be that Jeffs perverted Smiths religion. Simple question.
    As far as the appeals process it is very much still alive and with 1500 appeals points to chose from the process will go on for some time.
    Should I coach some nutjob for a few hours and hand them a phone and test the issues again. What church do you want to raid annon?

  28. Yep all charges prior to the raid were dropped …is that more acurate? WSJ walked into a Texas courtroom convicted of nothing, is that better.

  29. Now can we eliminate the name calling and deal with the issues and questions that I posed with a bit more civility?

  30. More was changed than just the age of consent with Hildebrands “religion targeting” laws. The escalade tape was identical to the “evidence” in the church yet the raid was needed to gather more info. If the transcripts were correct I recall no last names ….not much but moaning and prayer. Ya need a raid to tie everything together. You need to change bigamy laws and the age of consent to get the number of men that were tried. This fiasco isn’t over untill the last gavel and if it all falls apart because of one error it will be quite a shame. “targeting a religion” is a delicate business and nothing about the raid was delicate.

    ZXC said this on August 28, 2011 at 9:29 PM

    You’re really one big twisted pedophile apologist MF. How do you sleep at night?

  31. What I do not have time to research is how close to the teachings of Smith were WSJs actions.

    ZXC said this on August 28, 2011 at 9:35 PM

    I can give you some help here. It was MORE THAN 100 years.

  32. Yes, the appeals process can go on ro the Texas Court of appeals and then to the US supreme court. That has been stated by many posters. No arguement there, only opinion and speculatiom as to how those courts will rule. The 2 courts that have ruled on the warrants have upheld them. Therefore, there is no court ruling at this time that says the evidence was seized illegally. To say it was is only your opinion against that of the district court and the 3rd COA in Texas. You are entitled to your opinion and others are entitled to theirs.
    Did Jeffs follow Smith’s religious teachings or pervert it ? Don’t know, don’t care. Has nothing to do with the facts of whether jeffs did or did not commit sexual assault. The jury that heard the evidence agreed with the prosecution that he did. Their opinion counts. Yours and mine do not.

  33. Stanp…………ease off the veiled threats. I am neither FLDS, LDS or a polygamist. Too bad for you. It seems that many here aren’t open to objective discussion only the party line. When you have an agenda I suggest you simply state it up front and save everyone the notion that you are not a propogandist………you may have reached your desired outcome without all the constitutional issues and this boondogle may have been over years ago.

    ZXC said this on August 28, 2011 at 9:47 PM

    ZXC, but you are a HUGE propagandist, and ZXC you are also a pedophile apologist.

  34. Whether jeffs followed smith or perverted smith is of no import. Who cares?
    The issue is whether jeffs did or did not commit sexual assault. Jury says he did. Their opinion counts, yours does not. Yes, the appeals process on the warrants can go on. Everyone can speculate how those courts will rule, including you. At this time 2 courts have ruled that the warrants were valiid so there is no illegal seizure of evidence. Again you can opine about it if you wish. Your opinion is just that, an opinion.

  35. your peedjuiices are showing
    ZXC said this on August 28, 2011 at 11:44 PM

    Do you just make up nonsensical words as you go along, while you try to further your cause? Or should I blush because my petticoat is showing?

  36. Illegal acts are illegal even if done under the guise of religion. If warren proved he thought his actions were allowed as part of his religion is a moot point. The acts were still illegal and prosecutable. Guess ole warren found that out when the Texas jury slapped him with a 119 year sentence.

  37. All I can say to you, ZXC is that, as the Texas Representative Darby so succinctly put it: “pedophilia NOT a religion.”

    I don’t really care what you believe.

  38. Is it your opinion that the religion of Smith perverted Jeffs or could it be that Jeffs perverted Smiths religion. Simple question.

    It is not a question of who perverted whom … it is obvious from the Texas trial that Warren Jeffs is one HUGE pervert!

    Did you follow the trial and read the evidence? Do you not agree that this so-called prophet of God is one twisted pervert?

  39. oy. I understand a little of what ZXC is saying. kinda. Bottom line is that the LE officers saw what they saw and got what they got. The only people to blame are those that broke the laws. And Warren led a path straight way for anyone taking the time to look and do the things they needed to do.

    Samples:

    Billy gets busted for pot. Billy rats out Bobby. Cops watch Bobby but he never leaves the house. Mail man always delivers a package every Thursday. Cops go to post office and tracks back package. Package delivered by Brenda. Billy, Bobby and Brenda all get busted.

    Boy George ( the singer) calls cops to tell them someone broke into his home. Cops show up take statement from Boy George. While taking the statement the cops notice coke( drugs not soda) on the table. boy George gets busted.

    Dr. Whoo calls cops because teens are having a party at his house and it gets out of control. When the cops come to bust up the party they notice pot plants growing in Dr. Whoo’s house. Calls back to the Judge and gets extended search warrant and finds fields of green.

    The law enforcement that acted on this call did so with every intention of finding Sarah. With each shuffle game, moving the kids from spot to spot, from person to person those living there opened their own doors to further searches. Texas made the right call.

    What I don’t understand is the LACK of action on the parts of Utah and Arizona concerning the many other crimes inside these cults. Why didn’t anyone follow thru with the welfare fraud from Suzie, Rod and Wendy Holm?

    Why hasn’t anyone been taking an active visable approach towards welfare fraud?

    How about child neglect? Trading children for gain?

  40. ZXC said: Is it your opinion that the religion of Smith perverted Jeffs or could it be that Jeffs perverted Smiths religion?
    **************************************************************
    Here’s an answer. Jeffs chose to remain aligned with Smith’s perverted religion and to add to the marginal notes the leaders before him started (John Y., Roy, Rulon, J.M. Alma, Guy, etc). If Jeffs had any humanity in him, he would have left and had nothing to do with it. Men have left or refused to take other wives because they would rather go to hell than abuse women and children the way this religion does.

    Did it take the humanity out of Warren or was he born without a soul? It’s hard to say. Either way, the FLDS has become a large protected space for damaged people to stick around and damage others – or not.

    Do I care about the 4th Amendment rights of the abusers? Not really. (Unfortunately, because it’s a tight-knit group, some innocent people become guilty by association.) They hurt people. They hate America except when it serves them. They think we, in mainstream, are stupid and they are happy to take advantage any chance they get. If they could have it their way, they would have sovereignty from this country. Sorry, we need to be protected from them not the other way around.

    It is in the best interest of our social well-being to reign religious polygyny in before it becomes more out of control. Some people think it doesn’t affect the majority. Trust me, it will. And in big, bad ways.

  41. He wasn’t playing rock and roll while he had his jollies, the man was conducting a religious ceremony complete with Amens and other church members in attendance. Looks like Smith may have invented a hech of a religion.

    Sorry ZXC, he was using a religion to sexually abuse females. He created all sorts of new “religious ordinances” that were all about him raping innocent children. Sealing the Love of God into the Mind and Heart was nothing more than a code name for raping little girls. The Love of God has nothing to do with sex or rape, but he made it so.

  42. Yep all charges prior to the raid were dropped …is that more acurate? WSJ walked into a Texas courtroom convicted of nothing, is that better.
    ZXC said this on August 28, 2011 at 11:47 PM

    He might have been convicted of nothing at that point, but he still has charges pending against him in Utah which he will have to face sooner or later. Probably after his bigamy trial. Texas has him at least until the end of that. After that Utah will have the option to try him or drop those charges, but even if Utah were to try him he would serve his sentence in Texas before he would serve any time in Utah.

  43. ZXC

    Its NOT a veiled threat. You have always come off as a child molester apologist – that suggests you may be dabbling in it too.

    I dont know if you are, or if you are hiding behind the skirt of some religion in some lame attempt to (wrongfully) justify your actions.

    If you are doing this nonsense, then the word on the street is, a prison cell might just await you. You dont even need to be doing it now, but in the past.

    Whats the statute of limitations on child molesting in Texas?

    Think about it.

  44. Is it your opinion that the religion of Smith perverted Jeffs or could it be that Jeffs perverted Smiths religion. Simple question.
    As far as the appeals process it is very much still alive and with 1500 appeals points to chose from the process will go on for some time.

    ZXC said this on August 28, 2011 at 11:44 PM

    I think that Jeffs took an already perverted Smith religion and perverted it further than Smith (or Young) ever thought of. As for as there being 1500 appeals points to chose from, I have no clue where you get your number. Lehi’s appeal is basically in the crapper as his is appeal is identical to Emack’s. Raymond has oral arguments set for October. Keate had oral arguments denied. Leroy is still trying to get himself proved indigent and hasn’t even bothered to start his appeal on the sexual abuse. Abram and Dutson Jr are both in the beginning stages. As for Jeffs, he hasn’t hired a new attorney or filed a motion for new trial and his time is running out. He has 30 days from the date of sentencing. If either the Udashens, Kearney or Wynn go back and represent him again, they deserve any abuse he heaps on them. Jeffs made all of the attorneys who represented him in Texas look like fools. I was there and saw it first hand, so I’m not just repeating what was reported. I saw the interactions between them and Jeffs and the attorneys among themselves. It was a joke. They looked like they weren’t competent. DeToto is really lucky that she wasn’t cited for contempt of court several times.

    At the end of the day DeToto, Walpole and the late to the party Silverman were all released as counsel of record for Jeffs. Kearney, Wynn and the Udashens weren’t in Court at that time so they weren’t released. I don’t know if they have since been released or not.

  45. Howdy there ZXC

    I say what does it matter whether Mr Jeffs has or has not “perverted” the “religion” of Mr Smith? Who gives a toss? Smith was a pedophile and Jeffs is a pedophile. I find it astonishing that folks follow a “religion” founded by a pedophile in the first place and believe that garbage about Joseph Smith and his magic stones-in-the-hat etc. etc. etc.

    And are you sure your name’s not ill Bill?

  46. ZXC, the answer of which prophet is to blame goes to the religious tenet of a “Living prophet”. If you view Warren as perfect and a “Living prophet” then you’re bound to accept and follow his every whim, even the illegal ones that commit felonies. Does this warp Joseph Smith,Jr.’s tenet D & C 132, not in any way that I can see. Then you have view Joseph Smith, Jr as perfect and a “Livinig prophet” did he have his followers commit actions that were against the law and felony crimes? Joseph Smith, Jr. died in an attempted jail break or defense against a mob violence. Mormon’s say Smith was martyred and ‘Gentiles’ would say he shouldn’t have been armed in jail and two non-Mormons were shot and killed, as well. So was one a blasphemer or are both blasphemer’s, it depends upon either/both are “Living prophets”. I don’t think there is much evidence that Warren S. Jeffs warped Joseph Smith’s religion but there is an argument about both men led their followers into committing felony crimes as prophets.

  47. Stamp.slander is an interesting charge to defend yoursef against…..don’t push me.

  48. Thanks PT……….
    The reason for the Smith-Jeffs question is one of curiosity. The LDS has didtanced itself from this mess since well before the public became aware of the FLDS.
    It seems to me that a man that spent several years in prison on his knees praying has some genuine religious beliefs and the religious ceremony that he believes he performed was just as genuine in his mind.
    I have seen no in debth psycological study of the man and of course he didn’t claim mental defect so the case does, whether you like it or not, hinge on Jeffs “interpretation” of the words of Smiths religion.
    Did Smith outline any ceremonies similar to the ones performed by Jeffs or did the man simply get creative and modify or create his own noose.
    BTW Stamp….. I certainly understand your disgust yet I suggest that you use your energy to understand the root cause of the problem rather tham spout insults. You may find it keeps your blood pressure down. Jeffs sits in a concrete cell and will be there quite some time that is of course if the State of Texas didn’t screw up and violate the rights of one of 400 plus persons. There seems to be a herd of elephants in the LDS Temples as well as a few in the State of Texas concerning this affair. I just hope they didn’t leave too many dung piles laying around.

  49. Thanks Caljim……

  50. I disagree that the case hinges on what jeffs did vs what smith or on what jeffs interpetation of what smith said or did. Jeffs is totally responsible for his actions. He cannot say that he was just following smith (who died in 1844) and is therefore not culpable for breaking the laws in this century. I cannot say rhat because my GGF thought it was OK to make moonshine, that it is OK for me to make shine in this century.

  51. Slander is so difficult to prove when a pseudonym is being used as your ID. Also since Stamp is telling the truth I don’t think slander applies.

  52. Oh well patgirl………looks like we disagree.

    This is not some exercise to release Jeffs from responsibility, it is closer to an exercise to understand a religion. Like it or not the religion designed by Smith has been at the forefront of some rather ritcheous indignation for close to 200 years. We have polygamists with television shows, we have LDS AND FLDS temples with secret ceremonies, and we have Jeffs claiming religious authority not seen since Smith…….and the list goes on. Throw in a Texas legislator that “targeted a religion” and we have words that upset more than just the persons on this blog. Jeffs is not Tony Alamo, an ex-cop pulling a scam or Jones the drug saturated scam king and his fantacies.
    I just feel that someone somewhere needs to get to the bottom of the core teachings of Smith and solve the problem once and for all. There are legitamate religious institutions in this country that read most of the same religious texts available to Jeffs and have no problem determining religion from fantasy. What is there about the Book of Mormon that goes beyond every other religious institution. And I will ask again, is there some ceremony outlined in the Mormon religious books that outlines the “ceremony” that Jeffs performed or did the man simply invent one?

  53. BTW chemist………..you can make moonshine in this country for personal consumption…..just not sale. But I get your point. It just seems that as soon as the word religion is used everyone gets their panties in a wad. I think a bit more objectivity is in order.

  54. ZXC – I think you already know the answers to the questions you are asking. Maybe you should just come right out and say it.

    The folks posting here are good people. Unless you come straight out and say what you have to say they won’t know. So say it.

  55. I have said it…I have asked direct questions and have gotten few answers. let’s just do this again.

    Is there anything in the books written by smith that is remotely similar to the “ceremony” performed by Jeffs.

    One direct question at a time should do the trick.

  56. The closest ceremony that is known to have existed, that I have read about is one of the final ordinances, wherein, the receiver of the tenet was bathed nude within the temple attended by other members and then either man/woman nominee donned a white garment while remaining fully nude underneath and stood at a veiled wall and responded to a questioner from behind a the veiled wall, including the questioner reaching physically through the veil and touching the nominee in private parts. Not exactly the same thing Warren had enacted but the elements of nudity, touching and subjecting oneself to very private/intimate exposure are being performed. If anything like what Warren was doing is historical, it hasn’t come to light to my knowledge in the past, but there could be an account somewhere. Three years ago, when some readers were coming to all of this fundamental/orthodox knowledge many naysayers claimed the informed commenters were hysterical and liars and today we’re discussing the degree of bizarre behavior(s), instead of if this secret Temple ceremony(s) even exists/existed.

    ZXC, you need to do some reading and learning of your own, instead, of trying to have it laddled to you and you sit back questioning what is being discussed. My observation is that the FLDS Church has accomplished a massive hoodwink on the American Press & Public and using deceits, lies and falsehoods are standard practices. Look how they distract and mislead over a supposed ‘hoax’ caller at the YFZ Raunch trying to haunt the scent off of their massive felony mindsets. If Willie R”Thug” Jessop who was a member and WSJ’s personal body-guard can be fooled, secreted and lied to what chance is there that outside “Gentiles’ will ever be told the truth by a covert group of religious fanatics, whom even amounst themselves seem to hold deep/dark secrets?

  57. ZXC said: “Jeffs is not Tony Alamo, an ex-cop pulling a scam or Jones the drug saturated scam king and his fantacies”.
    ***********************************************************
    And Almond Joys have nuts, Mounds don’t.

  58. ZXC said: “I just feel that someone somewhere needs to get to the bottom of the core teachings of Smith and solve the problem once and for all”.
    ****************************************************************************************
    I don’t know, his teachings have only been around for 170 years or so. And there doesn’t seem to be much interest….

    I am laughing so hard right now. Are you f-ing serious? We’ve been at the bottom of his core teachings for a long time, I grew up there.

    Now can we solve the problem?

  59. “Hildebrands”

    Hildebran’s

    Did I go through a wormhole back to the SLT message board?

    Deja troll.

  60. ZXC said: “Is there anything in the books written by smith that is remotely similar to the “ceremony” performed by Jeffs. One direct question at a time should do the trick”.
    **************************************************************************
    Specific questions would be more helpful. Which ceremony are you talking about? There are a few.

  61. If you’re talking about the sexual training, it’s not really a ceremony so much as a training meeting. We can’t know if Joe Smith ever thought of this because he didn’t seem to have the same obsessive compulsion to take minutes on everything. It’s never been documented with him, but I’m sure he’d have thought it was brilliant.

  62. Now that was funny, Sis.

  63. ZCX: Recommend you read the Joseph Smith papers, multi-volume set and more volumes are coming out. Also suggest the Documentary History of the Church by Joseph and his scribes. As an acrtve LDS guy with decades of experience as an LDS temple patron and worker I can say there is nothing like warren’s ceremony in the current (dating from about 1960) LDS temple ordinances. IMO, warren made things up as he went and did not necessarily need or have a precedent from Joseph or anyone else.Perhaps ex flds people can say whether previous flds leaders ever conducted ceremonies similar to warren’s.

  64. I respectfully disagree, chemist. Warren simply added fringe and ruffles to things that were already laid out by other church leaders. Lost boys, underage marriages, sexual abuse, expulsion from homes, reassigning wives, all of it to some degree, was already laid out for him.

  65. Sis: You obviously know more about the practices of previous fundamentalist leaders than I do. Your comment enlightened me and I thank you for it.

  66. Thanks….It appears to me that the man simply tweeked existing LDS ceremonies to fit the needs of the FLDS, is that a fair statement?

  67. Well, one specific point that was given in the sudio tapes at trial was Warren’s ‘Quorom of Twelve’ was taken from some vision that Warren claimed to have had and not from any specific scripture or previous teachings. Two other areas for concern is the manifestation of this “One Man Rule” from his father that seems to have put past check and balances aside and granted tyrannical powers to just one prophet. Second, for me is the tenet that says Women/Children are the outright property (slavery) of the FLDS Church, prophet and Priesthhoodlums this has lead directly to unchecked ‘Child Bride’ exchange, wholesale reassignments of dozens of families and the escalating control on the individuals with enclave gulags and Temple ceremonies within the YFZ Ranch headquarters. When I first learned of the Temple being resurrected, I knew the history had not been to pledge allegiance to the US flag or preserve individual freedoms. Joseph Smith Jr.’s first wife Emma never allowed or bought into plural marriages and D & C 132 was aimed specifically at her as a spiritual warning, Joseph Smith Jr. life here on earth ended long before her husbands and the Reformed LDS Church resulted from her efforts.

  68. As Sis has stated there were precedents established by previous flds prophets. IMO, there is considerable more than tweaking to get from jeffs to current LDS practices. Perhaps tweaking could be used to get from w jeff’s
    predecessor to w jeff’s practices.

  69. I have said it…I have asked direct questions and have gotten few answers. let’s just do this again.

    Is there anything in the books written by smith that is remotely similar to the “ceremony” performed by Jeffs.

    One direct question at a time should do the trick.

    ZXC said this on August 29, 2011 at 1:09 PM
    _________

    Did you see the note about Warren “not feeling well” ? If we talk about <<< that maybe people would stop talking about this?

    Ask another question. And keep sharing out loud.

    Every day that goes by is a day the victim list grows. 😦

  70. The Quorom of twelve sounds a lot like the 12 deciples of Christ, even MLK used that practice to assign responsibilities to 12 men that advised him.

    Ok walton……since you brought up the victim list.

    have any members of YFZ filed any complaints against the church as result of WSJs leadership. Seems to me that noone complained to law enforcement from within the YFZ compound. I am aware that former members complained so can we just deal with present WSJ followers.

    BTW, I am aware of the medical condition of Jeffs……what’s the point. Seems that a drug induced coma kinda limits the mans ability to communicate with anyone……

  71. I’m not sure he’s in a drug induced coma. Seems that the coma/near death was a figment of the vivid imagination of his former attorney Ms Emily DeToto.

    And ZXC, they are victims whether they ask for help or not. VL Keate was a victim as was M Jessop and 22 other underage girls who were preyed upon by Jeffs.

  72. What are you talking about? Yes, there were complaints from within. And do you know what happened to them? The LE went right back to their Prophet and they were dealt with in different ways.

  73. ZXc…..if there is someone in my church who has had sex with multiple girls under 16 years old I.hope someone DOES pick up a phone and “target” my religion. Your argument assumes that we are all similarly quilty and the only crime is in getting caught. Thankfully aggravated sexual assault of a child is not so common place in the circles I frequent.

  74. ZXc…
    In reference to changing the law to target a religion. That is not by itself unconstitutional. For instance the court case in florida about santeria and ritual abuse of animals. I read the decision. Although the law as written in that case was unconstitutional the court made it clear that the community has the right to protect itself from a new threat to it’s well being even if that threat comes from a religion. But the religion itself cannot be proof and text of a crime. If it were legal to have group sex with a number of 13 year olds but illegal to do so while praying then that would be an attack on religion. As long as the test and proof is the act itself religious persecutlion is not an arguement against the law itself. Furthermore as long as there is prosecution of those who perform similar violations regardless of their belief there is no persecution in the specific charges. And there are many such prosecutions. What happens in a case in Utah or Arizona has no bearing on the validity of the warrants in Texas. You are spouting conspiracy theory nonsense without basis in fact.

  75. ZXC. in Warren’s own words on tape the quorum of wives have a sexual purpose. You are trying to apologize away what has already been proven. The man is guilty. Even if he is released on some technicality later, which I doubt, it has been well proven with solid evidence that he used his influence to rape two girls under 15 and detailed in his own writings dozens of others. Your halfhearted attemps ar diversion is not working for anyone who studied the case._

  76. I apologize if my posts are hard to read. I have no power or internet right now cause of irene. Using my phone and sffering with autocorrect.

  77. Simply asking questions that I was invited to ask folks..no need to digress to other issues or begin the well worn defensive posture.
    Perhaps my question should be a bit clearer. Did any of the residents of YFZ file criminal complaints against Warren Jeffs?
    There ya go…now focus. A simple tes or no will do and if you feel like nameing those that filed a complaint it would be appreciated.

  78. Thank you betty.

  79. Your posts were great, Betty. Well Said.

    Maybe we should go back to the basics for ZXC, so that same questions will stop being stated sooooo clearly, over and over and over.

    ZXC – No, no one from YFZ has filed charges against Jeffs. They can barely file their nails without someone watching. Anything filed criminally on their part is usually fraud related.

    Most people there are terrified to say one thing against Jeffs, let alone take action. He will be dead before most of the victims have the courage to state the abuse they suffered from him.

    Yes, two former FLDS members (though, not from YFZ) have filed charges. That made international news and two bestselling books.

    Next question please. And, please feel free to state it however you like, I’ll try to keep up.

  80. I think the Quorum of Twelve is Mormon related. As in the Quorum of Twelve Apostles right under the prophet. Only in the FLDS, they are women, and literally under the prophet at least once a month.

  81. ZXC said: Thanks….It appears to me that the man simply tweeked existing LDS ceremonies to fit the needs of the FLDS, is that a fair statement?
    ***************************************************************************

    WHAT CEREMONIES ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

    I don’t mean to shout, but I thought if I put it in big letters it would be more clear that your question is fague. (it was painful to type that.)

    Is your statement fair? I don’t know.

    THERE ARE A HANDFUL OF LDS/FLDS CEREMONIES.

    For example: there are marriage ceremonies, baptismal ceremonies, christening ceremonies and funeral ceremonies.

    There are also sermons, practices and religious tenets that are NOT ceremonies.

    Which would you like clarification on?

  82. Wonder if ZXC’s questions are a diversion tactic or an indication that he/she is too lazy to do their own research? The posts also seem rather demanding and insulting. Not the best way of getting civil responses.

  83. Tell me ZXC, does the LDS church and Smith/Young have an ordinance of sex in the baptismal font? Do they have a Quorum of 12 Wives who are taught how to groom themselves and please their profit?

  84. ZXC

    “Perhaps my question should be a bit clearer. Did any of the residents of YFZ file criminal complaints against Warren Jeffs?

    There ya go…now focus. A simple tes or no will do”

    =================

    Its not as easy as that, children cant give their consent to be raped by uncles and church leaders.

    We’ve been around the block a hundred times on this and look at all the convictions, holmes.

    If the adults and other persons of trust take advantage of the youth in a sexual manner, you will be stuffed in a prison with no AC and likely go into a coma – if you are lucky.

  85. ZXC

    .It appears to me that the man simply tweeked existing LDS ceremonies to fit the needs of the FLDS, is that a fair statement?

    =================

    Hmmm never heard of any LDS having sex orgies with children in Baptismal fonts – thats a pretty serious tweek

  86. ZXC
    other lawsuits: ex’d father suing Jeffs and henchmen for fraud in suppressing the news of Jeffs first confession of not being the prophet

  87. ZXC
    I am having difficulty understanding what your point is?
    Religious freedom? and it’s limits?
    Freedom from search and seizure and its limits?
    Age of sexual consent and its variation from state to state (a la Deci)?

    If you could be clearer on what type of info or discussion you are seeking it might help.

  88. There are many laws for which the complainant is the state and not the individual harmed. In many of these the victim is assumed to be unable to make the complaint. Murder is an obvious one. But also when the victim is mentally incapable because of mental illness or challenged/retarded. Children also. In these cases the victim does not need to press charges. In some states when an officer witnesses proof of domestic violence but the victim will not press charges the officer is required to do so. The assumption being that the victim is under duress or threat of additional harm.

    Apologists have a tendency to dismiss these crimes saying that since the girls did not file complaint then they have consented and so it cannot be rape. Not so because the penal code seldom uses the word rape in connection with victims that young.

  89. Frankly I think. The point is to dominate the discussion.

  90. I think this is a big nail in the FLDS coffin. Of all the potential appellate courts that could review this case, the best hope was the 3rd COA. It’s in Austin and is one of the most liberal of all the Texas courts of appeal. I’m not certain the Court of Criminal Appeals will even review this decision since it really doesn’t present any novel issues that would warrant a review.

    I was a bit bummed the opinion didn’t really address the multiple families in a single compound argument. I’m no expert of criminal appellate law but that seems to be the argument with the most merit in my book.

  91. If ZXC simply wants to dominate the conversation, perhaps not responding to those posts would be the best strategy.

  92. “If ZXC simply wants to dominate the conversation, perhaps not responding to those posts would be the best strategy.”

    One would think we could learn that in three years.

    Same manure, different year.

  93. Good to read your input on the COA decision, Ron.

    I am expecting the issue of the multiple families in a singular location to be addressed by the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals once it arrives at their doorstep.

  94. Ron, it did address the fact that the ranch was owned by 1 entity, all fenced as 1 property and contained no separate addresses.

  95. Good to read your input on the COA decision, Ron.

    I am expecting the issue of multiple families in a singular location to be addressed by the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals once it lands at their doorstep.

  96. I read the bulk of the decision, it seemed they had the RE situation covered.

    If it had been subdivided, or at least given different addresses, they might have had a leg.

    Still not sure on that point though, as it is technically a high fenced gate guarded compound and not a free society as found in the rest of America.

    All those children – kept locked behind fences.. gates… guard towers… and the child molesting house they call a Temple….

    Guess in my book “TEMPLE” will never ever mean the same…

  97. The 9:29, 9:34 and 9:35 anons were me.

    I don’t think there will be a problem at the 5th Circuit as there is sufficient precedent dealing with very similar issues regarding a singular property and multiple dwellings.

    I’m hoping they give the issue their time, though, because that could further strengthen the law for when the next similar instance takes place, which won’t even necessarily be anything remotely related to the FLDS and YFZ.

    Strengthening the law would strengthen the hand of those who are charged to enforce the law.

  98. Going back to the court’s ruling for just a moment — To an admitted law geek that opinion was very nicely done! The clerk who wrote it must have enjoyed him/herself immensely. Ya’ll understand that Mr. Emack was already out of luck (IMO) before any discussion of the facts in the warrants ever came up, right? They shut him down on “standing” to complain about DFPS interviews in the first place — all the other stuff seemed like dicta to me — almost playful, warning shots about the merits of the arguments attempted…
    Without belaboring the point, pp. 9 -ish through 11’ish of the opinion where the court is discussing Emack’s analogy to Kothe. …

    In plain English –Mike and Dale are driving…er…living …down the road in Mike’s car…er…..ranch. If some policeman pulls them over/knocks on the gates because he thinks Mike is a criminal — even if it’s really because he and Mike have never liked each other since that time in 7th grade when….etc. and EVEN IF he’s abusing his authority by hassling Mike….

    If Dale’s dope…er…underage girlfriend…happens to fall out of Dale’s pocket in front of the policeman, any further searches of Mike’s car..er ranch to find Dale’s syringes or crack pipe don’t need a warrant. (Plain sight exception to warrant based on probable cause, maybe exigent circumstances, too.) The “clock” so to speak is reset because Dale has committed a crime in front of the police — nobody cares about pore ‘lil Mike anymore. Now, Dale could probably complain that the policeman had no business making him stand there with his buddy until he accidentally “crimed” himself, but Mike? He’s just got bad taste in friends and bad judgment re. choice of passengers…er…ranchmates. Mike is now just an innocent bystander who, for all we know, could be a faithful contributor to any and all police charities, member of the neighborhood watch and baritone in the church choir.

    BUT

    While looking for the rest of Dale’s stuff, law enforcement folks happen to find some syringes, baggies…er marriage records…with “Property of Mike. Hands off -this means you, Dale” written on ’em in Sharpie — then Mike has sadly suffered the same misfortune as Dale — to wit: his dope…er underage girlfriend…has just jumped out his pocket in front of the police.

    Mike can’t say the mean old policeman who has always had it in for him because…blah…blah…had no right to be there when MIKE “crimed” himself b/c his buddy Dale had already messed that one up.

    All of this takes neatly takes care of Mike’s “standing” to complain and avoids the problem of embarrassment to the court and defense counsel by having to strain the Kothe analogy into fairy-tale land. Because if underage girlfriends = baggies of dope, then DFPS-interviewed underaged girlfriends = magic TALKING baggies of dope.

    Neither Mr. Emack nor any of the other men can/will or should, legally speaking, come right out and say that what REALLY sticks in their craw about the searches is that “their” girls — you know, “their” chattel? same as papers, photos, recordings etc.? — were interviewed/seized w/o permission of their respective owners. It’s the women’s testimony in the interviews that they’ve absolutely gotta have supressed…. Abolition of slavery and emancipation of women are (sarcasm intended) somewhat well-known and established concpets by now. They are protected by the very same constitution that Mr. Emack relies on for his appeal in the very same federal court system that is charged with deciding constituional matters.

    Sorry to be so long-winded! I just appreciated the reasoning….slowly backs twitching out of the room…..

  99. You think you are twitching? Just imagine Warren, as he comes to out of his drug induced coma, he better be gearing up for his next trial date.

    Detoto! Whar are ye Detoto!?

  100. Snert!

  101. SBunne said this on August 30, 2011 at 12:17 PM

    thanks! that was enjoyable reading

  102. Sbunne
    Thanks
    HHG

    Ron – good to see you

    Others – I agree XYZ just wants to troll

  103. Funny

    everytime Warren comes out of the hospital he looks more and more like

    FRANKENSTEIN

  104. It seems that free discussion after being invited to ask questions is a bit beyond this group. For several discussion sections many on this blog have been trying to find a way to prevent the FLDS from following a path similar to the Jeffs fiasco. It is my opinion that the core religion itself is the root cause of most of the behavior displayed by the “flock” and its leaders….just trying to understand the situation a bit better.

    Now I will try to continue with a third question. Has Jeffs had a mental evaluation and if so what were the results.

  105. Do not know, have not researched it. Have little interest in researching it.

  106. I am expecting the issue of multiple families in a singular location to be addressed by the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals once it lands at their doorstep.
    Anonymous said this on August 30, 2011 at 9:35 AM

    I don’t think this particular appeal will ever make it to the 5th Circuit. It will go from the 3rd COA to the Court of Criminal Appeals and from there the next step would the the US Supreme Court. Why would it detour to the 5th Circuit?

  107. Jeffs had at least 2 mental evaulations in Utah.

  108. That’s right, PT. My bad.

    Been a bad day.

  109. Ron in H, thanks for your take on the 3rd COA, I have been bothered about the search warrant violating private residences but felt as they commented that it was not very private/individual at all. Also, I am bothered that a fanatical religious group can buy, build and lay-out a facilty that seems to test/challenge normal legal precedents or laws. I’m concerned at covert organization that demonstrates a dgree of legal sphistication aimed at snarling the legal process. It makes for a bizarre religious backdrop to achieve that level of organized circumventing.

  110. and you can add the mental evaluation he just had at Huntsville on his incareration at the Byrd Unit. i don’t know about Arizona, but i would guess he had one there, too

  111. The opinion of the evaluating clinicians (2) was that Warren Jeffs suffered from depression, and he was competent to stand trial. Links to the psychiatric and psychological evaluations have already been placed on this blog in the past, anyone who is interested should use the search function to find the relevant links.

  112. After some quick research, it appears that Emack’s appeal of his sexual assault conviction would go next to the Court of Criminal Appeals and have will make the decision whether or not they even want to hear it. If they do hear it and Emack loses he could petition the US Supreme Court.

    To get it to the 5th Circuit Court in New Orleans it appears it has to start out in Federal Court.

  113. It would seem that with all the FLDS paoerwork and with all the Jeffs records removed from the courthouse before they were sealed that someone on this blog has had the time to discover if the teachings of Jeffs comply with Mormon doctrine. has anyone looked into the accuracy of Jeffs religious teachings.
    Bottom line. Do the teachings of Jeffs comply with the Bible and the Book of Mormon?

  114. Please educate we folks who aren’t familiar with the Texas court hierarchy.

    I am familiar with the Third Court of Appeals and the Criminal Court of Appeals. What is the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals? Thanks!

  115. ZXC

    i think you question would be better asked on the general discussion forum but will answer with this small bit

    And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
    King James Version Matt.10:14

    Beginning in early 2003 and ending in mid 2005, Warren visited the 48 continental states, stopping at most of the state capitals. He would perform the ordinance of dusting off the feet, declare that “none doeth good here,” raise his arm to the square and leave a curse on the people of the state. “I performed the ordinance, arm to the square with Naomie sitting beside me holding the recorder. I delivered the state of New Hampshire over to the judgments of God and asked the Lord to remove the Spirit of protection from that state, and that the state and people would not be a stronghold against Zion. Always in these ordinances I kick the dust of my feet against them as a witness and testimony on earth, binding the law, sealing up the testimony against this wicked generation.” (Priesthood Record, August 2, 2005)

    http://flds101.blogspot.com/2009/12/flds-history-101-warren-jeffs-in-hiding.html

    He was on the run, never spoke to anyone about anything. Oh yes, people “received him”, Bourbon Street, Las Vegas, heck even the tanning salon.

    He butchered even the simplest Bible verse.

  116. Maybe Proud Texan just partly answered my question here:

    To get it to the 5th Circuit Court in New Orleans it appears it has to start out in Federal Court.

    Proud Texan said this on August 30, 2011 at 10:56 PM

    Oh Boy – Nawlins! One of the pedophile profit’s favorite towns. Porn Shows, Strip Clubs and Hurricanes (both the Katrina storm and big tall souvenir drinks with long straws).

    So is that a Federal Court?

  117. Anon 12:48,

    The 5th Circuit Court of Appeals is a federal appeals court between the federal district courts and the US Supreme Court.

    As PT confirmed, criminal cases only go through the federal Circuit Courts of Appeal if they originated in a federal district court. The YFZ cases in Texas are in a state district court.

    After the Court of Criminal Appeals in Texas will be the US Supreme Court for appeals on the YFZ cases.

  118. Yes, the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals is a federal court and PT is right in that the YFZ cases will not go through that layer because they originated in a state district court.

    After the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, the next step is the US Supreme Court.

  119. Anon 1:16 was me.

  120. How old was the girl Emack married? I googled a few articles but they didn’t say. If it was posted here, I missed it.

  121. xzc
    I think that the religion itself with its emphasis on a living prophet, and a singular one man rule, individual women and children as not worthy of having souls that can move to the beyond in and of themselves, a sense of holiness the is superior to the secular world, and polygamy as the main defining ordinance all combine to a perfect storm that will inevitably produce a Warren Jeffs in every one to two generations.
    That is an opinion and to be even clearer I think that the religion itself as set up is inherently corrupt and corrupting and that the secular world should move to place some sort of restraints of activities that do the above in the guise of religion (or not religion)

  122. ZXC: Every church that follows Joseph Smith and the BOM will say they are the one following his teachings. From the Assembly of Christ on one end to the flds om the other. It is all in the interpetation and in revelations received by different “prophets” since the time of Smith

  123. chemist

    ziggy is just trolling as usual. He has had years to figure it out on his own.

  124. I am amazed that every question that I ask is answered by some with the same old anti jeffs diatribe and that diatribe belittles the issue and alienates more people than it attracts. One reason for much skepticism before and after the raid and during the Jeffs hunt had to do with accusations that proved false, actions by Jeffs that were legal, and the use of words that attracted emotions for the sake of emotions without being literally correct.
    I suggest that people get over the knee jerk reactions to Jeffs and deal with the issue of his religious teachings in a way that circumvents the rise of a new leader that will one day use the scriptures to attain some prophetic powers.
    Almost every accusation against the man could have been raised against Christ and I am sure that many used charachter assination to throw more than one Christian to the lions.
    One reason that I have played devils advocate for so long is that a vast majority against Jeffs were proven false, no need to list them again,
    So far my questions have led me to believe that Jeffs was sane, jeffs followed prescribed religious teachings, and that he firmly believed his own words as well as the words of Smith. As mentioned by hellohellogoodby we will certainly see another prophet in a number of years if something isn’t done to prevent a new prophet from riseing from the slime left over from the raid.
    As I mentioned much earlier, Smith certainly designed an interesting Religion and it seems that Hildebrand may even have been correct in “targeting a religion” I just think that the target should have been Jeffs and not hundreds of persons that were born into a cesspool designed by Smith.
    Freedom to practice a religion are the words written by our forefathers…….. and every time the followers of Smith push the envelope of the constitution the document shows its weakness.

    Question five. Can change be done without all the drama?

  125. ZXC,

    I do hope that neither Christ nor Smith ritualistically deflowered 12-year-old virgins in temples or baptismal fonts while other women and children held them down.

  126. ZXC you and anyone else can believe whatever you want. That has never been the issue. The problems start when you put something into practice that is against the law. Then it ceases to be a religious question and becomes a criminal matter.

  127. Sis,

    The girl Michael Emack married was 16 at the time and 16 when she conceived a child.

  128. ziggy

    You live in the cesspool long enough you become the cesspool

    and No on the “no drama” part.

    They cant be “persecuted” if they arent constantly misbehaving.

  129. Direct question ZXC. Yes or no.

    Should a person’s religious beliefs give them the right to have sex with a six-year-old?

  130. I have just decided that my “religion” is to constantly break speed limits when I use my car. It has also become my “religion” to suddenly have sticky fingers in this or that retail store..oh yeah, let me see, it is now also my “religion” to scream at the top of my lungs outside my neighbor’s window at two o’clock in the morning just because I feel like it.

    So I should never face consequences for these little scenarios!! ‘Cause these little games are now my “religion!”

    How come the US Constitution isn’t protecting my “religious freedoms?” I just feel sooo persecuted!! Whine whine whine!!

  131. Sorry Gretchen…..you can do 69 in a 70 and for that matter many jurisdictions allow 10% over the limit. You get the point.

    It is a shame that many respond in the same worn out manner. I have not been in a slime pit. Carolyn says she lived in a slime pit and she left. Flora implied that she lived in a slime pi and she left.

    Many people still live at the ranch and they have no intention of leaveing.

    Let us get back to trying to solve a problem rather than simply throwing out worn out jeffisms…….

  132. ZXC, the answer is clear. Those are the ranch think that if they leave they will lose their salvation. They don’t want to be “damned to hell” so they stay and have abuse after abuse heaped on them all cause by the person they call the profit. That is the bottom line, as long as they are told that their salvation is at risk if they do this or do that, they will tow the line.

  133. ZXC said: “Freedom to practice a religion are the words written by our forefathers”.
    ********************************************************
    That was written back when there were three or four religions in the U.S. You do not have a right to use religion as an excuse to break the law. Ever. Polygamy was against the law in the United States before Mormons started practicing it. Some people aren’t aware of that.

  134. ZXC said: “so far my questions have led me to believe that Jeffs was sane”
    **********************
    That’s perfect. Because that’s exactly what your questions led me to believe that you believe. Thanks for making it so clear.

  135. ZXC “I am amazed that every question that I ask is answered by some with the same old anti jeffs diatribe”
    **********************************************************************************
    Sooo, just to be clear, what you’re saying is that you ARE a troll?

    Please find a Principles Voices blog. They can always use the support. And since they no longer discriminate in any way, shape or form, they are probably welcoming to people and trolls alike.

  136. Why on earth would anyone outside of that cult be pro-Jeffs? A pro-Jeffs argument would not only involve abandoning common sense, but also common decency. Any religion that assigns sexual partners as a condition for salvation is already well down the path to totalitarian corruption. I can see having differing opinions on legal rulings and even different opinions on polygamy or polyamory amongst adults, but being any thing but anti-Warren Jeffs is to me a vote for child sexual abuse as a form of religious ceremony. That’s only a hair’s breadth away from arguing human sacrifice as a religion which should be granted Constitutional protection. Never was the intention of our forefathers, never has been covered by any of our judicial rulings, never will be. No way to logically twist that sort of evil into being a reasonable freedom that citizens might expect to enjoy.

  137. Sis, wish I had a “like” button.

  138. If we allow criminally minded people to attribute their behavior to commandments of God, we will become a lawless society.

  139. This may be off topic, but I laugh when polygynists (and pro-polygynists) try to align their constitutional rights with gay rights. Bul&s**t!

    If the majority of gay (or pro-gay) parents were teaching their children (or supporting this teaching) that the ONLY right way to be is gay, and coercing them into homosexual relationships with dirty old men and women at the ages of 15, 16, or even 18, EVERYONE else would be standing in Fred Phelps’ picket line.

    As it is, there is no comparison, and Fred Phelps is a jerk.

    Polygynists cannot be given the same rights as monogamists because, out of necessity, their relationships are structured without equality and free will. Polygyny is abusive and unnatural. By unnatural, I mean the majority of instances are contrived and constrained.

  140. I don’t think ZYC is a troll but someone who is looking at the big picture.

    ZYC- Not even when Joseph Smith had his on again and off again visions did they stop the practice of Polygamy. Little did everyone know that poor Joseph had bad eye sight and imo he was a little hard of hearing.

    The only reason that the LDS Church said that they would stop the practice was due to the govt. going after properties and monies. Even then it was many many years after they started the public display.

    But then… here comes John Taylor and his vision. Still connected to the Church saying one thing/doing another and tossed out a few plastic keys and said have at it. and they did.

    The LDS Church says they will excommunicate those that are practicing polygamy but yet….. they leave the back doors open for the very same ones they kick out. Just as John Taylor said they would do.

    imo John Taylor also had a hearing problem and his sight was getting bad.

    imo the LDS Church needs to truly lock those doors and get on the bandwagon to help fix this mess or they too imo are part of the problem.

    AND the laws need to be enforced. Not just because I don’t like Polygamy but because it is the right thing to do. For everyone.

    Walton

  141. “sorry”, ZYC- I don’t get YOUR odd (and maybe “worn-out?”) “jeff-ism”..? or whatever you want to call what you said to me…!! .. I have been one of the most staunch people on certain blogs, for six years , on and off, as I try to lend moral support to those fighting the polygamy scourge in the USA, and trying to help others learn what’s going on in the apparently pretty lawless polyg groups of North America. I’ll thank you to not continue referring to someone like myself as using “Jeff-isms!” That’s a big, undeserved insult, my friend! If I am not quite convoluted or intellectual enough for you, so very sorry! Thanks a whole bunch!

  142. …and before someone or other wonders if I am “over-reacting” or being “overly sensitive,” I’ll fill in the blank for whomever… YES, I am tired, and YES, I am fed up with this polyg mess, and YES, maybe I shouldn’t even have blogged at all today. Time to take another break from polyg-watching, no doubt. It definitely gets to a person.

  143. Walton said: “imo the LDS Church needs to truly lock those doors and get on the bandwagon to help fix this”
    ————————————————
    That will never happen.

    They agreed to stop living polygamy, now we want them to be anti-polygamists? That’s more than we can ask. It’s too feminist. It might get women inside the church riled up about not being allowed to hold the priesthood. Where do we draw the line?

  144. Direct question ZXC. Yes or no.

    Should a person’s religious beliefs give them the right to have sex with a six-year-old?

    Anonymous said this on August 31, 2011 at 1:27 PM

    Anon, let’s give ZXC the benefit of the doubt and instead ask “Can a person’s religious beliefs give them the right to have sex with a twelve-year-old, who just turned 12 years old 3 weeks before she ” ‘married’ a man who was over 50-years-old?”

  145. I am going to cross-post this to the “General Discussion” thread in addition to this one. Please forgive me, but it is only for informational purposes.

    I think I know who ZXC is and I won’t directly out him, but I strongly believe that he is part of CPAC – the Centennial Park Action Committee.

    I have heard similar BS in the past from a guy from CPAC, who thinks he is the “great debater”, so that is why I’m posting this.

  146. They agreed to stop living polygamy, now we want them to be anti-polygamists? That’s more than we can ask. It’s too feminist. It might get women inside the church riled up about not being allowed to hold the priesthood. Where do we draw the line?

    Sis said this on August 31, 2011 at 10:14 PM

    Yeah, Sis, we know where the “Equal Rights Amendment’ went in the 1970s. The LDS church quashed that notion!

    And I’m not even a “feminist”, but I remember how the LDS rallied against the ERA issue (just like they did a couple of years ago with the California gay rights issue). There were LDS members calling from Utah who were not even involved with the California gay marriage issue; calling to persuade voters. LDS members who didn’t even LIVE in California were calling LDS church members in California to vote against Proposition 8. It didn’t matter to the Mormons … they were on a mission from God. And they rally their Saints’ forces and butt in where it is not their business.

  147. And I’m not even a “feminist”
    —————————————-

    Anyone who cares about equal rights is a feminist.

  148. Direct question ZXC. Yes or no.

    Should a person’s religious beliefs give them the right to have sex with a six-year-old?

    Anonymous said this on August 31, 2011 at 1:27 PM

    Anon, let’s give ZXC the benefit of the doubt and instead ask “Can a person’s religious beliefs give them the right to have sex with a twelve-year-old, who just turned 12 years old 3 weeks before she ” ‘married’ a man who was over 50-years-old?”

    Anonymous said this on September 1, 2011 at 12:09 AM

    Or both questions.

    Curious to see if ZXC draws a line.

  149. “Feminist” is not a bad word. Unfortunately, militant feminists don’t always serve it well and right-wing media trashes it. Don’t be fooled. Feminism is a good thing. It’s not all about women, it’s about everyone. Strong women make a healthy society. Feminism helped bring down slavery.

    CC/Hildale/CPark/YFZ – they could all use a women’s movement about now.

  150. Anon, let’s give ZXC the benefit of the doubt and instead ask “Can a person’s religious beliefs give them the right to have sex with a twelve-year-old, who just turned 12 years old 3 weeks before she ” ‘married’ a man who was over 50-years-old?”
    ———————————————————————-
    If ZXC is who I think I he is, he’s a 43 yr. old man who just married a lovely 18 yr. old girl. Second wife, by the way. So, everytime he’s having sex with her, I’m sure the answer to your question is “yes,yes,yes,yes”.

    Of course, I’m just guessing on his identity. But… not so much on his answer to your question.

  151. Sis, ZXC has reported in the past that he is a Catholic from Texas.

  152. “And I’m not even a “feminist””

    I am – and I’m not in the least embarrassed about it. I wonder why you are ?

  153. If he’s FLDS he’s not “just married”. There haven’t been any marriages performed there for a good 2 years.

  154. If he’s FLDS he’s not “just married”. There haven’t been any marriages performed there for a good 2 year
    ——————————————————
    Someone on the GD thread said ZXC sounds like someone from CPAC who posted on other blogs. The CPAC guy is the one who married the 18 year old girl last month. He’s only 25 years older than her, it could be worse.

  155. Yeah, Sis, we know where the “Equal Rights Amendment’ went in the 1970s. The LDS church quashed that notion!

    And I’m not even a “feminist”, but I remember how the LDS rallied against the ERA issue (just like they did a couple of years ago with the California gay rights issue). There were LDS members calling from Utah who were not even involved with the California gay marriage issue; calling to persuade voters. LDS members who didn’t even LIVE in California were calling LDS church members in California to vote against Proposition 8. It didn’t matter to the Mormons … they were on a mission from God. And they rally their Saints’ forces and butt in where it is not their business.

    Anonymous said this on September 1, 2011 at 1:01 AM

    It should be noted that the Southern Baptist Church, and there are more SBC members in the USA than LDS, also opposed ERA as well as prop 8 in California. If you had read the SBC website during prop 8 they also did exactly the same as the LDS as well. So if you are going to attack LDS on these issues, you must also attack the SBC, and evangelical church community as well. Gov.Perry also strongly opposes ERA and gay marriage, an identical amendment to prop 8 was passed by voters in Texas due to massive support and get out the vote efforts of SBC and other evangelicals.

  156. Feminism is the belief that women are equals to men and should enjoy the same social, legal and economic standing as men. The radical “Christian” right has mounted a decade long propaganda campaign to smear the term so that it means something rather close to “violent lesbian”. Recent tests of college aged women show that they will deny the title of feminist while agreeing with the basic tenets of feminism. It’s very sad. I feel that a lot of the work I did when I was young has been lost and these women are threatened in ways they have never imagined.

  157. ZXC has in fact claimed in the past to be a Catholic from Texas. His views on Catholicism seem to me to be untouched by Vatican II. I recall that when the FLDS refused burial in the cemetery in Short Creek for an infant because the family was apostate, he defended their actions by claiming that it was official dogma that Catholic cemeteries be run the same way (and thus was not heartlessly cruel). He was not moved by actual proof from official Catholic web pages that there is no such dogma or from personal experiences of other posters with Catholic cemeteries but stuck to the idea that if his diocese does it that way, it must be because the Pope ordered it to be so in an infallible epistle. Shrug. If this is indeed the same person, I would not expect logical discourse.

  158. ZXC has in fact claimed in the past to be a Catholic from Texas.
    ————————————————————
    He may be. Someone suggested he was from CPAC and I was throwing out a guess as to who that could be.

    A Texan – You’re right, the entire religious right wing is not very supportive of equal rights. I wonder why they feel threatened?

  159. My opinion only. I don’t think the “religious right” has that much to do with real religion. There are so many people whose beliefs I respect, like BiB and others, who do not follow in lock step with the reactionaries but think for themselves, interpret scripture for themselves, etc. I think the “religious right” is all about returning the US socially to a way of life that held sway prior to 1964; no Civil Rights act, women were less in the work place, there was no Roe vs Wade, minorities were still actually in the minority, gays could actually go to jail just for having a relationship, etc. Thus the Bachmann quotes about “submitting” to her husband and her confused attempts to retract it. If she is not submissive, she’s not in line with her base. If she is submissive, then she’s not a good candidate for President.

  160. Unfortunately the admonition of St. Paul for wives to “submit” to their husbands is misunderstood. The word in Greek for “submit” here is a Koine Greek word which means line up in battle formation behind the military commander – literally in today’s English it would be “stand behind your man.”
    St. Paul also admonishes all believers to “submit” to each other using the same word in Greek. It should not be interpreted as being required to “submit” to physical or verbal abuse. See the Christians for Biblical Equality website for a full discussion of these verses.

  161. I think in any successful marriage, both parties will submit their will to the other now and then. If you can’t give in occasionally, you will not be married long. Ditto any kind of communal living situation, large families, monasteries and ashrams, barracks, etc. There are going to be times when you do what is best for the group rather than for yourself and that’s how it should be.

    Women for some reason are prone to belittling their husbands in public. This should never happen. It’s not funny or cute, it’s hurtful.

    Real life so seldom resembles battle, but we so often use battle terminology for it, because our culture is based on militaristic hierarchies and has been for many centuries. There are situations that I will completely turn over to my husband because he is so much better than I am on that particular topic. Other topics, it’s the opposite – for instance, I should talk to the bankers and lawyers and go over the contracts because he has absolutely no business sense but at the same time, you don’t want me making decisions about the next computer purchase. And he should speak officially to his own children; if I do, some sort of drama will undoubtedly ensue no matter how I try to be considerate of their feelings.

    I’m not a big fan of Paul. I do not weigh his words as heavily as those which are purported to come directly from Jesus. I realize that makes me a heretic. But, I note that Paul (who was unmarried) was much more likely to give advice on marriage than Jesus. Jesus kept it simple with advice to love God and each other. Really, how many of us succeed at just those two commands?

  162. St. Paul was interested in maintaining the prevailing social order and generating respect for the new Christian faith in the New Testament era. Anything written by Paul should be interpreted in its proper cultural context. Remember that St. Paul appointed women to be deaconesses and leaders of churches, refers to Junia (a woman) as an apostle, and he also said that in Christ there was no male or female, slave or free man, Jew or Gentile – this is a radical statement of equality in the New Testament period.

  163. Cool insight, BiB. Thanks. I am fond of some of Paul’s mystic writing.

  164. I can actually remember sitting in sacrament meeting (I was little) and hearing the congregation being advised exactly how they were expected to vote regarding the ERA.

  165. Third Cousin, I left the Catholic Church when I was told in confession that I needed to acknowledge my proper position in the world as a Christian wife and a mother rather than a medical student. I can understand how that must have made you feel.

  166. Oh BIB, I’m speechless. That is just shameful. Good for you!

  167. I dont think ZXC is catholic and I’m not sure he is CPAC but I bet he is in Texas wagging his flds tail.

    ex or not

  168. ZXC’s knowledge of Roman Catholicism is limited to Pre – Vatican II dogma. He is also of the impression that Jesus and his early followers were accused of committing crimes similar to those committed by Warren Jeffs. There is no evidence in any secular writings of the New Testament period that Jesus or any of his early followers were accused of sexual misconduct with young girls in baptismal fonts or anywhere else for that matter.

  169. Yup. It’s a big part of why I am not an active Catholic, either. I was working as a volunteer to help with cleaning, flowers, arranging candles, etc. and when I had my first period I was no longer allowed to walk across the altar. Yes, I know that is tradition and not any kind of official stance. But to be told that you are unclean and unwelcome because you are now a functioning woman is a huge statement. I found it staggering and began rethinking everything they told me. To see my aunt, the nun, who ran a huge convent, school and hospital be told that she was not worthy of a position of leadership in the diocese outside of her order solely because of her gender was also a big blow to me. What a ridiculous waste of human resources. No wonder convents are nearly empty these days.

  170. Duh, that was @Betty – sorry!

  171. Betty – I am stunned that this happened to you, and yes, that is why the convents are empty. It is also very difficult to find priests born in the US these days due to the celibacy restriction placed on the priesthood.

  172. Question five. Can change be done without all the drama?

    ZXC said this on August 31, 2011 at 11:25 AM

    _____

    I am still think that you have something to share. I don’t care if you are a reporter with CNN or a guy or gal who sells pop bottles on the corner. Your name to me is ZXC and I want to know what you know.

    Do you think that change can be done? and how so?

    Walton

  173. What is “all the drama”? You mean the arrests for sexual assault of a child? For misuse of public funds? Suits between various beneficiaries of the trust and the trust resulting in the state seizing the trust and the fine mess it’s now in? Or do you mean WSJ tearing up families and throwing people out? Or the various front runners to replace him firing off letters to each other? Seems to me that religious polygyny is a veritable font of drama.

  174. IN FACT

    Those polygs are major drama queens, if they didnt cause themselves to be prosecuted every few years they would feel irrelevant.

    But wait a while, and they will raise some hell.

    Oh well they bit off more than they can chew this time!

  175. And warren jeffs is the biggest drama queen of all. Cannot take care of himself in prison for a few days before he engages in self destructive behavior. Excessive fasting, head banging, whatever he does, all for drama!!

  176. Betty @11:27,

    Good for you for standing up to that. If more women put their foot down to this misogyny, God would start sending revelations faster than anyone could scribe them.

  177. PROUDTEXAN — you have mail. Sorry, didn’t check for a while. Question probably already answered by now, but …oh well!

  178. Got it, thanks.

  179. Betty.you refered to my previous claims correctly and failed to mention that my claims come from experience well after vativan 2. Experience betty…my reality on the subject. vatican 2 has many nuances that are not followed by some churches and it seems burial of unbaptised infants is one of them, at least in my church.

  180. My offer to remediate your church’s problem with Catholic dogma still stands ZXC – give me the name of your church and the graveyard which you are referring to, and I will have some high profile Jesuits and Franciscans that my husband knows make some phone calls…

  181. A perfect example of my earlier point…….much time has been wasted in the last series of posts trying to determine who I am. Much time has been wasted throwing about accusations that have been proven false. The Jeffisms, and yes I coin a few words, have simply serve to dilute the conversation with emotion and are getting pretty worn out.

    As far as sex with a 12 year old…….the bible defines the marraige age, not me or Jeffs or for that matter anyone else on this planet. If the BOM is more specific than the Bible throw that book in the mix. Anyone can debate the age of marraige issue till the cows come home but the secular morality of the issue sure seems to be trumped by the fundamentalist crowd by words that they do not chose but simply read in their morality manual.

  182. A perfect example of my earlier point…….much time has been wasted in the last series of posts trying to determine who I am. ZXC said this 9/2/2011

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I don’t care who you are. Giving me the name of your church and the graveyard in question allows me to assist those who require assistance, and tells me nothing about your identity which I don’t care about anyway.

  183. As far as sex with a 12 year old…….the bible defines the marraige (sic) age, not me or Jeffs or for that matter anyone else on this planet.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Where does the Bible define marriage age ?
    Verses please.

  184. Please note that there is no age for marriage listed in the Book of Mormon either. There is no requirement in the Mormon Scriptural documents which requires underage marriage – NONE. There are verses in both the Bible and the quotations of Joseph Smith which require obedience to the the laws of the country in which you live however.

  185. ZXC there is no “age” for marriage in the bible.

  186. ZXC

    “Anyone can debate the age of marraige issue till the cows come home ”

    Too bad you cant debate it if you cant back up your claims – again, where are your bible verses?

    And still there is no reason to debate it – there are laws, break the law, end up like Warren.

    Thats not a threat, its a promise.

  187. Looks like the bible thumpers can find the required passages to justify marraige at mensus……..are they blind?

  188. ZXC,

    Why don’t you ask “the bible thumpers” where they find these non-existant verses?

    And what difference does it make? The law does not have to be based on the Bible. Thank God for that, or all the goat farmers out there would be buying tassles to hang on their goats!

  189. “at least in my church” is a valid point, ZXC. Your experience is fine and valid as long as you present it as such. Just as it’s fine and valid for me to talk anecdotally about what happened to me in church as a child. But when you start presenting your view and your experiences as the current, official stance of the Catholic Church when I know darned well that you are wrong, I’m going to call you on it and I’m going to present proof via valid references to official Church documents and/or websites. Cause that’s how we separate fact from fiction…by finding and referencing facts.

  190. ZXC,

    Why do you care if we waste time? Why not just skip over it if it bothers you or seems like a waste of your time?

  191. So the onset of menses is the “line.”

    That’s what I thought.

    Apologist.

  192. Looks like the bible thumpers can find the required passages to justify marraige (sic) at mensus (sic) ……..are they blind?

    ZXC said this 9/2/11

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I asked you to provide the verses – so where are they ?
    They don’t exist.

  193. Menstruation has been observed in two year old female children with head injuries or cerebral palsy. Should those girls be married off ?

  194. I like it when BiB gets on the warpath.

  195. Time for ZXC to put up or shut up. Still waiting for the verses. Apparently ZXC just made up some garbage to throw on the wall. Lousy troll.

  196. Still waiting for someone to read a bible……..I don’t do other peoples homework

  197. You expected other people to read the BOM and the Bible, then tell you whether Jeff’s teachings and pracrtices were or were not consistent with them. You won’t provide the verses because they don’t exist. Lousy time wasting troll. Put up or shut up.

  198. You won’t provide them because they don’t exist. Put up or shut up. Lousy troll. Did you read the BOM when you asked about it or did you ask other people to read it and answer your question about Jeff’s teachings vs BOM.

  199. There are no Bible verses about the “proper age for marriage”. I have talked to 2 Bible scholars and both say that there is no reference to that. No clue what the Book of Mormon says because that is just a bunch of crap made up by Joseph Smith and his rose colored glasses.

  200. ZXC, I’ve already read the Bible. You obviously have not. There are no verses which mandate marriage at menarche. None.

  201. I seem to remember that one of the Lebarons thought it was okay to marry/impregnate 12-year-olds because that was supposedly the age of Mary mother of Jesus when she became “with child.”

    Does that ring any bells?

  202. I’ve never actually seen Mary’s age listed anywhere in the Bible, I think anything about it is pure speculation.

  203. Ooops, my bad, that was not a LeBaron but Kenyon Blackmore.

  204. PT the New Testament doesn’t record a physical act for Mary’s conception? “…The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God” Luke 1:35 Immaculate conception would not matter as to an age, moot point.

  205. The age of Mary at the time of conception of Christ is not known. The Protoevangelium of James places her age at about 15-16 at the time of Christ’s conception, but that book was proven to be a forgery over 1500 years ago.

  206. Still waiting for someone to read a bible……..I don’t do other peoples homework

    ZXC said this on September 2, 2011 at 4:46 PM

    —-

    Weren’t you the one who claimed there were Bible verses?

    PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

    Oh wait, that’s right – you were home schooled – don’t want to strain yer brain.

    And that part about “No one else on this planet” – ask Warren how that worked out for him?

    Obviously you guys are on the WRONG planet.

    —-

    “As far as sex with a 12 year old…….the bible defines the marraige age, not me or Jeffs or for that matter anyone else on this planet. ”

    ZXC said this on September 2, 2011 at 9:47 AM

  207. jewish law allowed marraige for males at 13..females 12.

    There are no biblical provisions that prohibit a wide marraige age gap.

    The Christian verses are rather vague and generally allow womans marraige at some level of puberty….reaching a period , breast development.

    The problem here folks is the religious nature of the issue and not the legal issues. Texas had a marraige age of 14, with certain restrictions, before the arrival of the FLDS.

    Some religious bible thumper will play on the Biblical passages for eternity, if a solution isn’t found.

    Iasac Beschev Singer penned a story many years ago concerning the Jewish polygamy-momogamy “experiment”. In the Singer story the main charachter was charged with bigamy and his defense was the Jewish experiment of monogamy and the 2000 year old time frame of the experiment. Seems that the calander had nearly ran out on the experiment (2000) and given the various calander changes over time the defendant claimed that he was close enough to the end of the experiment to be set free. Point is ……religion set the age of marraige as well as the acceptability of polygamy and even though Smith penned his book well before Singer he certainly found enough loopholes to confound jurists even in thid modern era.

    Throw all the Jeffs that you desire in prison but you will never solve the marraige issue without dealing with the religious justifications for the act. As I stated before, the victims don’t consider themselves to be victims, Jeffs believes that his acts were justified, and the core religion is still flourishing in one form or another.

    My opinion about marraige to a 12 year old is only an opinion but here goes. I personally think that the act is obscene and whether it is legal or not is of no importance. The vast majority of males in this society need no law telling them not to screw a 12 year old…….the bible on the otherhad leaves the question open and some perverted few use the bible as an excuse to get their jollies while others sincerely believe that they are doing nothing wrong. Jeffs falls into the latter group.

    Once again folks……..Smith certainly designed a heck of a religion….. or if you believe his explanation heavenly father revealed a heck of a lifestyle.

  208. ZXC, you certainly hold my interest at times.

  209. 1) jewish (sic) law allowed marraige (sic) for males at 13..females 12.

    Response : Those laws are contained in the Talmud, NOT the Bible. That is NOT a “mandate” – betrothal or marriage was permitted, NOT mandated, in the past by Jewish Oral Law (Talmud) – not the Bible (Jewish written law) – ONLY AFTER females achieved menarche, never before. Betrothals MAY have taken place in Israel at age 12 in the Biblical period, but the actual marriage ceremony usually occurred years later. The Jewish marriage ceremony in the Biblical period had two parts : a) the betrothal and b) the actual marriage ceremony. In the past the two ceremonies were often celebrated months or years apart. Nowadays most people of the Jewish faith celebrate the betrothal on the same day as the wedding.

    2) There are no biblical provisions that prohibit a wide marraige (sic) age gap.
    Response : No one suggested that there was a prohibition.

    3) The Christian verses are rather vague and generally allow womans (sic) marraige (sic) at some level of puberty….reaching a period , breast development.

    Response : There is NO stated age for marriage in the New Testament “Christian” verses. In the Old Testament Jewish law a girl was NOT to be betrothed or married until secondary signs of sexual development were clearly visible. It was by NO MEANS a mandate for marriage when a girl reached menarche. Given that 2 yr old females may menstruate and exhibit secondary sexual characteristics, menstruation and appearance of breast buds in a female teenager is not a reliable indicator of readiness for marriage or childbearing. Consider also the high maternal and fetal death rates observed in the Biblical period when teenagers gave birth – I don’t think that high rates of maternal and fetal mortality are what God wants, do you ?

  210. And by the way, you also misquoted Isaac B. Singer – he wrote a fictional short story about a man accused of bigamy because this fictitious character violated the approximately 1000 year old ban (cherem) on polygamy instituted by Rav Gershom of Mayence (Mainz). Rav Gershom (The Light of the Diaspora) banned polygamy after the year 1000 for all Ashkenazi Jews in the Diaspora. It (the Cherem) is NOT an “experiment” – it is a religious law which is still in force in the opinion of most Ashkenazi rabbis.

  211. So, no verses. No surprise. There are also religious groups that practice under age sex/marriage that have no connection to Joseph Smith and mormonisim. Tony Alamo’s gtoup, the House of Yahew, etc.

  212. The problem here folks is the religious nature of the issue and not the legal issues. Texas had a marraige age of 14, with certain restrictions, before the arrival of the FLDS.
    ————————————————————–
    That’s really a problem for you?

    Before the FLDS arrived, LE could safely assume that a DNA test on a 14 yr. old’s baby would prove it was her 15 or 16 yr. old boyfriend’s.

    Never, before the FLDS arrived, did LE think that hoards of 14 and 15 yr. old girls would let 55 yr. old freak jobs impregnate them and coerce them into becoming spiritual wives.

    If takes turning a religious issue into a legal issue to stop that nonsense, I’m on board. How about you?

  213. ZXC said: It is my opinion that the core religion itself is the root cause of most of the behavior displayed by the “flock” and its leaders….just trying to understand the situation a bit better.
    ———————————————————-
    I think you might be on to something, Sigmund.

  214. Nahhh ZXC

    You claimed:

    ““As far as sex with a 12 year old…….the bible defines the marraige age, not me or Jeffs or for that matter anyone else on this planet. ””

    You didnt say

    “the Bible doesnt define it, so child molesters use the excuse that there isnt an age in the ten commandments so HEY! Anything goes.”

    Thats just a child molester thought process – and you rightfully admitted it – the sad thing is, you were there voicing it the first time right along with them.

    And you wonder why people think you’re a troll and / or a molester?

    What you may be starting to see, though you are still struggling with it, is that rule of law comes into play where you happen to live, and what may be OK in Afghanistan or Ethiopia isnt necessarily legal in the US.

    And yes, child molesters like Warren, Tony, Phillip, or yes even Merril, etc will be dealt with as they are exposed, regardless if the children have the ability to complain to LE or not.

    So look now, the entire FLDS cult has been ripped apart up one side and down the other because of their misbehavior.

    Hope this makes the next crew of dimwits think twice before harming children.

    Or else they can mumble to themselves as they rot in prison. Maybe take another swipe at home schooling.

  215. Sorry bib.you are wrong…..still have to read the bible a bit closer. There are many versions of the book so get started, and yes even a wide age gap is not frowned upon.

    The 14 year old marraige age in Texas certainly didn’t restrict the age of the groom any more than the 16 year old marraige law in California restricts the grooms age and it even hits the entertainment page.

    Even hildebrand couldn’t get his bill passed thanks to the East Texas Baptist lobby and he had to hide the law in a CPS funding bill. Religious lobby ……..get it…. “target a religion” get it?

    I am not struggling with any law……the present or past law concerning marraige has never applied to any of my desires……..wouldn’t marry someone 14 or 16 and don’t really concern myself with the subject outside the context of this debate. But the Baptists certainly complained enough to keep a bill off the agenda.

    I mentioned earlier that Alamo and others used scripture to pull a scam……..jeffs on the other had actually believed his own religious uterances. Only my opinion but it hasn’t changed and while religion can be used by some it is more dangerous when actually believed by the salesman.

  216. Sorry bib.you are wrong…..still have to read the bible a bit closer. There are many versions of the book so get started, and yes even a wide age gap is not frowned upon.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Sorry my friend – there is NO specific age given for marriage in the Bible. There are references to marriage being appropriate ONLY AFTER puberty FOR A FEMALE. That’s it. It is NOT A MANDATE FOR MARRIAGE AT A PARTICULAR AGE, and your statement on Judaism permitting marriage of 12 yr old girls is FROM THE TALMUD NOT THE BIBLE. There is NOTHING in the New Testament “Christian” verses about it either.

  217. Once again zxc you fail.

    There arent any bible verses that float your little boat.

    And the law was to prevent child abuses, it just so happened a cluster of molesters moved in to Texas, there was no mention of their religion in any law.

    Yes we saw Warren proclaim in court he had a religious right to molest children, hell he didnt even deny it.

    Sorry Warren, you and your posse are going to spend your golden years rotting in prison for the errors of your ways.

    Let this be a lesson to any other child molesters out there – read up on Warren and his follies, and check out his new lifestyle.

  218. “On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. No one looked on you with pity or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you. Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised. Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, ‘Live!’ I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare. Later I passed
    by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine. I bathed you with water and washed the blood from you and put ointments on you. I clothed you with an embroidered dress and put leather sandals on you. I dressed you in fine linen and covered you with costly garments. I adorned you with jewelry: I put bracelets on your arms and a necklace around your neck, and I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. So you were adorned with gold and silver; your clothes were of fine linen and costly fabric and embroidered cloth. Your food was fine flour, honey and olive oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be a queen. And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign LORD.” – Ezekiel 16:4-14

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The passage above from the Old Testament is the verse which is thought by some to indicate that at the time the Bible was written the appropriate age for marriage was SOME TIME AFTER a girl experiences puberty – no specific age is given. Note that the passage is an allegory about the METAPHORICAL marriage of God to the Jewish people, it is NOT a law or command. There is NOTHING in the Bible which approves marriage for 12 yr old girls – that is in the TALMUD, not the Bible.

  219. ZXC
    Again what is your point….

    I’ve said it and I will say it again – yes it is the religion that is the cause of the problem. However, as many many have pointed out in the United States secular law rules – so using religion as an excuse once caught will not help. If you point is prevention then we can prevent people from believing anything they want..
    what we can do is use secular laws to make acting on those beliefs harder . unfortunately nobody has the will to actually enforce the anti-polygamy laws so here i think home schooling laws need to be drastically rethought. Enforcement of welfare laws would also be a big help

  220. I have stated this already, but will restate it and agree heartily with BiB. What’s your point? Who cares what the Bible does or does not say about the age of marriage? The bible says that slavery is OK, and we don’t follow that. The Talmud carefully dictates what kind of fabric you can make your clothes out of but we do not base laws on that. People who raise livestock are not required to put tassles of the appropriate color on the livestock. America does not base it’s system of laws on the Bible. Get over it.

  221. Also, BiB, the passage you quote has the Lord CLOTHING the young girl and treating her like a queen, not requiring her to trim her pubic hair and be constantly ready for his call for heavenly comfort. Minor detail.

  222. The Torah unfortunately calls for the faithful to execute adulterers, fornicators, gay people, witches, and unruly children. If you participate in executing someone in the US and claim that it is your religious right to do so, you will be prosecuted. You can believe whatever you like in the US, but your right to practice certain tenets of your religion is not unlimited, particularly when the practice of your religion jeopardizes the rights of others.

  223. Excellent point Betty.

  224. The problem here folks is the religious nature of the issue and not the legal issues. Texas had a marraige age of 14, with certain restrictions, before the arrival of the FLDS.

    This is your problem ZXC, even with this what Warren did to the 12 year old would have been aggravated sexual assault. The 12 year old couldn’t be married under those restrictions.

    Also you talk about “Jewish law” allowing for marriage of a male at 13 and a female at 12. That is not in the Bible anywhere and that’s where you said it was. Why in the world would you expect us to believe you know anything about early Jewish law? I know I don’t and I’m sure the others here don’t either.

  225. ZXC said: The 14 year old marraige age in Texas certainly didn’t restrict the age of the groom any more than the 16 year old marraige law in California restricts the grooms age and it even hits the entertainment page.

    It is you who are mistaken. For a 14 year old to be married they had to convince a Judge that it was necessary. I can’t think of any Judge who is going to be swayed that a 14 year old girl needs to be married to a 50 year old man.

  226. ZXC said: jeffs on the other had actually believed his own religious uterances.

    I doubt very seriously Jeffs did believe his own crap. He knew what he was doing was wrong and was attempting to hide it from not only LE, but also the rest of his followers as well. The only ones who knew about this were the ones who were also participating in it.

  227. I think that’s an excellent point, PT. Right now, people in the creek are saying that the government made up the evidence – that Jeffs did NOT do what he was accused of doing. I think the one thing Jeffs dreads more than anything else is that his people will figure out what he was really doing and abandon him.

  228. Jeffs said

    “If they knew what I was doing they would hang me from the highest tree”

    So heck yeah he knew he was an evil child molester, and not shy about it either.

    I think ZXC has been spending too much time with Scotty or Hugh and getting his head full of all the wrong notions.

    Be careful who your friends are ZXC – see some of them going to prison?

  229. Yeah, the reference to the 16 year old Californian who married a 50+ year old did make me think of a certain Pharisee……

  230. ZXC, you keep referring to Jeffs’ beliefs (i.e.,…) :

    …and some perverted few use the bible as an excuse to get their jollies while others sincerely believe that they are doing nothing wrong. Jeffs falls into the latter group.
    ———–

    I mentioned earlier that Alamo and others used scripture to pull a scam……..jeffs on the other had actually believed his own religious uterances Only my opinion but it hasn’t changed and while religion can be used by some it is more dangerous when actually believed by the salesman.
    ——–

    If you’ve known Jeffs all his life, I might give more credence to your claim. Care to elaborate?

    In my opinion (and being a close relative), you are wrong about Jeffs actually believing his new religion couched in his new made-up language and ordinances. He is probably delusional and certainly sexually perverted, but he is also intelligent. He knows exactly what he is doing, why he’s doing it and has proved himself extremely capable of patient manipulation to effect his what and why. No way does he believe what he is selling.

    Jeffs was disillusioned early on – lost his priesthood as a young man and had no intention of abandoning his perverted sexual proclivities. He found himself in exactly the right time and place to effect a long-term setup for supporting his perversions – both sexual and spiritual. He is quite proud of being the deceiver and is finally reaching his ultimate goal of going down as a martyr.

    He is simply separating the sheep from the goats and happily bleeding the sheep. His own early indoctrination says (I am no biblical scholar) something to the effect that God will send a deceiver, the anti-Christ, to deliver a lie that even the very elect will believe and be damned. He is quite proud of being that deceiver.

  231. Warren Jeffs is no doubt a sociopath.

  232. Indeed, Hugh brags up the rotten behavior of hollywood types and apparently the same couple ZXC refers to.

    So, it appears he is buying into that line of thinking. ICK

    Then he also claims there isnt any law about ages of men who can marry in Texas.

    In fact, there are extra penalties for child molesters with longer age differences – while in CA we gag at this guy marrying a 16 yr old – if he molested her at 14 the large age difference would compound the crime and increase his prison stay.

    you can see that actor as the defamed creeper prison guard in “The Green Mile” with which stars Tom Hanks.

    He is as big a creep in real life as he is in the movie.

  233. Anonymous said this on September 3, 2011 at 11:23 AM

    In response to anons above post, think you are correct, your description of that felonious profit Warren, sounds like the description give by Dr. Welner of Brian David Mitchell. Elizabeth Smart described Mitchell as a master manipulator, intelligent, a master con, who enjoyed outwitting people, as he did with numerous LE. The more I find out about Jeffs, the more he sounds like Mitchell.

    From court transcripts:

    Q. Elizabeth, did you ever get the sense that the
    defendant enjoyed or got a kick out of fooling others?
    A. Yes.
    Q. What did he do or say that gave you this
    impression?
    A. He would just say that, like he’d be laughing and
    just say, oh, they think they’re so smart. They think they’re
    guiding me to the light when really they don’t know that I’m
    the Davidic king, that I know all this. I could dance circles
    around them. They don’t know who they’re dealing with.
    Q. Did he brag about how much he knew about different
    topics or subjects?

    A. Yes.
    Q. What would he say?
    A. He talked about — I mean, anything that ever came
    up, he had to be right. He had to know about it. Like he had
    to be the authority there on that topic.
    Q. Did that include things that were religious or not
    religious?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Any topic?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Is it fair to say in this nine-month period of
    time, Elizabeth, with the defendant that you came across a
    number of individuals?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Considering all of these people you encountered
    during your travels with the defendant, did anyone ever
    suggest to you or Wanda that you heard that the defendant
    needed professional help?
    A. No.
    Q. That you should get him to a hospital or get him
    help?
    A. No.
    Q. In your observations of the defendant, did you
    conclude he was intelligent?
    A. Yes.
    33
    A. Yes.
    Q. What would he say?
    A. He talked about — I mean, anything that ever came
    up, he had to be right. He had to know about it. Like he had
    to be the authority there on that topic.
    Q. Did that include things that were religious or not
    religious?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Any topic?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Is it fair to say in this nine-month period of
    time, Elizabeth, with the defendant that you came across a
    number of individuals?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Considering all of these people you encountered
    during your travels with the defendant, did anyone ever
    suggest to you or Wanda that you heard that the defendant
    needed professional help?
    A. No.
    Q. That you should get him to a hospital or get him
    help?
    A. No.
    Q. In your observations of the defendant, did you
    conclude he was intelligent?
    A. Yes.
    Q. What made you conclude this?
    A. He did, he knew a lot about a lot of different
    things. He told me about his previous life, about what he
    did, what he’d done. He was a very capable, intelligent human
    being.
    Q. Was he articulate?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Was the defendant honest?
    A. No.
    MR. STEELE: Objection, Your Honor.
    Q. BY MR. TOLMAN: Did you —
    THE COURT: As to her understanding. She doesn’t
    believe he was honest. She’s entitled to say that.
    Q. BY MR. TOLMAN: Do you believe he was honest,
    Elizabeth?
    A. No.
    Q. Did you observe him lie?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Was lying difficult for him, or did it come easy?
    A. It was easy.
    Q. Was he convincing?
    A. To many people, I think so.

    The following would be an accurate description of Warren Jeffs:

    Evil, wicked, manipulative, sneaky, slimy, selfish,
    greedy, not spiritual, not religious, not close to God.

    Here’s a link: http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2009-10/49605279.pdf

  234. I agree about the creepiness, but you have to agree that there is a big difference between the girl and her parents appearing before a judge and getting a license and the FLDS stories where the daughter is delivered in the dark of night from another state or country and left inside a compound with fences and a guard tower. Also part of the argument is that it’s fine if it’s serial monogamy and our real concern is polygamy….not so. This guy would have to really work at it to rack up 24 under aged wives serially. It’s difficult in most states to accomplish a marriage and a divorce in just one year, but even at one a year it would take him 24 years to match the “quorum” of under aged brides Jeffs accumulated in only 2 years. Also, with Jeffs, the girls were younger and younger so that 16 begins to seem down right mature compared to weeks after the 12th birthday. That’s not even considering the under aged girls that Jeff’s assigned to others.

  235. Thanks Anon…in your opinion the man is dilusional? Did the shrinks miss that diagnosis . The onlt thing mentioned about the man on this site when I questioned Jeffs sanity was that he suffered depression while in prison. Depression is rather normal for men or women being locked up so I saw that as rather normal. Please elaborate on your previous opinion.

    Well Chaps you made my point. The age spred may be objectionable to you but it isn’t illegal in California. 14 may be objectionable to you but it wasn’t illegal befor Jeffs showed up. Took a religion to be targeted before the change in the law and the objections to the change came from the Baptists in Texas. All the objections in the world simply don’t mitigate the hypocracy of targeting religious behavior on one hand and allowing it on the other. Afew of the other men and one in particular married 14 year olds……..perfectly legal in Texas before the FlDS did it.

  236. One more thing Anon………. How do you explain continual prayer and fasting in prison if the man simply was pulling a scam? I am sure the religious veneer would wear off a bit with only guards and fellow inmates to entertain. Seems to me the man believes his own religious teachings.

  237. ZXC said: Well Chaps you made my point. The age spred may be objectionable to you but it isn’t illegal in California.
    ——————————————
    Do your homework before posting nonsense. If that 16 yr. old girl’s parents had wanted to press charges for statutory rape, they could have. It’s simply another case of parents failing to protect their child – and it also made headline news.

    http://www.sexlaws.org/california_statutory_rape#Q2

    1. Q: What is the legal age of consent to have sexual intercourse in California?
    A: 18 years old. This means sexual contact with a minor under the age of 18 is illegal in the state of California even if the minor says it is consensual.

    Section 261.5.
    (a) Unlawful sexual intercourse is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a person who is not the spouse of the perpetrator, if the person is a minor. For the purposes of this section, a “minor” is a person under the age of 18 years and an “adult” is a person who is at least 18 years of age.

    (b) Any person who engages in an act of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor who is not more than three years older or three years younger than the perpetrator, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    (c) Any person who engages in an act of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor who is more than three years younger than the perpetrator is guilty of either a misdemeanor or a felony, and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.
    —————
    Now, because that man married the girl, he avoided charges. But you can bet they had sex before they got married.

  238. I think he got away with seducing that girl because he had money.

  239. ZXC, Texas wasn’t “targeting religious behavior”; they were addressing a problem with a compound full of pedophile child molesters.

  240. Here is a link to a Q&A on Texas law. The age of legal consent in Texas is 17. You’ll find this about half way down the page: “(1) was not more than three years older than the victim and of the opposite sex;” The three year age gap has existed in many states for some time. I don’t think that was changed for the FLDS. Case and point: how long have you been familiar with the term “jail bait”?

    http://www.sexlaws.org/answer_board_question-texas_statutory

  241. ZXC. the age spread in California was legal for 2 reasons, #1 her parents gave consent and she was old enough to be legally married with parental consent and #2 he wasn’t already married to 78 other women.

    Legal marriage is 1 man and 1 woman in Texas. Every man who has been prosecuted except 1 has been legally married to another woman. The exception is Keith Dutson, Jr. He could have gone to the courthouse with her parents in tow and gotten legally married to the Keate girl. He didn’t do that, he did only what he was told by the profit and therefore he sexually assaulted the girl. I have asked the question of why, after he knew it was a crime because he had been indicted, didn’t he go and legally marry the girl. To this day they aren’t legally married. That’s just stupid and dumb on the part of Dutson, Jr.

  242. Yep Sis, the Seniors always knew to leave the Freshmen alone. The Texas law just changed to make the gap 4 years. That took affect last Thursday.

  243. When bigamy comes into play, a minor becomes “jail bait” with a double hook. We are all familiar with the studies that show how easily adults can manipulate children. It is our job as citizens to protect children from predators.

    ZXC, If you can’t see the harm in what the FLDS are doing, if you think a person’s religion should supercede protective laws, you reveal yourself as potentially predatory.

  244. Thanks Sis and PT for those facts – you finished my points well.

    Also, in the past in Texas with the age of 14 for marriage, as I recall there needed to be a Judges approval.

    Big whoops here, as PT said, I dont think Warren was going to be asking a Judge for the hand of a child if he already had 78 stuffed in a motel back home.

  245. It still is Anon@2:25. The new law says 15 and older and not more than 4 years. It would still get Dutson Jr as there is 6 years, I think, between him and his victim, but I still say he could have mitigated his damages if he had married her as soon as he was indicted. He would have showed the jury that he was willing to follow the law as soon as he knew for a fact that he had broken it.

  246. ZXC,

    I’m still hanging with the question….what’s your point? So what if they changed the law? Are you suggesting that Texans find nothing wrong with sex with 24 14 year olds and they only made the law to get Mormons? That otherwise the juries would not be finding these men guilty? Are you trying to argue that the objection is to polygamy? Is that where you are going with this?

    Cause I think all the regular posters think that the age of consent should be close to 18 pretty much everywhere. Even now in Texas, you cannot get married at 16-17 without presenting proof of parental consent to a judge, and we know that no one did that for these girls, as the point is made above about Dutson.

    If you think you are going to get this crowd to think polygyny with children of 14 is reasonble, you really are barking up the wrong tree.

  247. ZXC,

    I think you are having trouble with the difference between being incompetent to stand trial by reason of insanity and having mental health issues. They are two very different things. You can be depressed, have delusions about your own importance, etc, but if you know right from wrong and can understand the court proceedings you are good to go. Once again, what’s your point?

  248. I agree with Betty. ZXC, get to the point or STFU.

  249. Answer me this ZCX, If your 14 yr. old daughter comes home all excited about her new babysitting job to help a stay-at-home FLDS dad, will you be targeting the religion, said parent’s gender, or your daughter’s free-will when you say “Oooooh, hell NO!”?

  250. Fine, answer me nothing. I’ll answer myself.

    It sort of falls under ‘knowing a person’, although, you can’t always tell. If a man or woman soliticits a young girl to be a “daddy’s helper”, you should be concerned no matter what religion they are. However, if they are part of a religious group that is known to coerce children into group marriage, you should call the police. That is why we are responsible for our children until they are 18, because we are more informed, and it’s our job to protect them from having to make decisions like this.

  251. Funny how what goes around comes around.

    A Texan said this on August 28, 2011 at 4:03 PM

  252. IMO. we have allowed ZXC more than his 15 minutes of fame on this blog. I say; ignore his inane questions and posts. If we don’t respond maybe it will go away.

  253. I agree with anon@8:08

  254. I’m in. Given a fair chance. Done.

  255. Point is……the motivation for the entire issue. religious institutions other than the FLDS had no problem with 14 year old marraige before Jeffs. Hildebrand “targeted a religion” so he says and it wasn’t the Baptist church. Still mineing the motivation behind the entire situation, religion or a single man.

    Seems that questions that I ask upset people on this blog…….shedding a little light on the situation seems to anoy a few people. If honest questions and a desire to question motivations of the actors in this play bother som here I wonder what questions that you fear. We dance around the fubdamental teachings of Smith and the word religion so perhaps the nerves of some just can’t handle honest discussion.

    Will you go back to Jeffisms and hocky accusations or continue to simply ignore the reality of honest inquiry.

  256. “shedding a little light on the situation seems to anoy (sic) a few people.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    No light emanating from your corner – your fund of knowledge on religious dogma needs a great deal of work.
    I only get annoyed when posters present false information and present it as truth, my electronic talmudin.

  257. XZC
    Nobody is annoyed because you are shedding light or adding discussion. You ask questions that are opaque, you do not contribute information, you tell people to go find out stuff without sharing either your agenda, your real question, or any information.

  258. I agree with anon@8:08 also because ZXC continues (after repeated requests) to offer NO documentation for his/her statements; continues to dance around questions asked to substantiate his/her comments; and continues to just go around in circles offering/providing nothing and demanding a lot.

    Why are we wasting our time? Dump the chump, I say.

    I still think ZXC is that short, skinny little argumentative guy who belongs to the Centennial Park Action Committee.

  259. ZXC, are you sure that no one from any other religion is in prison for underage sex?

  260. I mean religious leader who convinced girls it was God’s will.

  261. Point is…… ZXC said this on September 3, 2011 at 9:20 PM

    ZXC, you’ve beaten that horse and he is now dead. AMF.

  262. Any idea on how long it may take Emack’s search warrant appeal to get to the Texas Court of Appeals? How long it would take that court to hear the appeal once they get it?

  263. I still think ZXC is that short, skinny little argumentative guy who belongs to the Centennial Park Action Committee.
    —————————–
    I don’t think so anymore. That guy would chop his own finger off for penance, after misspelling a word or using poor punctuation. They do have similiar personalities, though. And both are gifted at circular arguments.

  264. Well that was interesting, having a drive by with John Lester arguments.

    Lester was the “42 year old virgin MLM wizard who wanted bigamist lesbian wives starting with some young sisters who just started menses”

    Well, thats him in a nutshell, but lemme guranteee ya he said a lot more than that.

    Funny this cxz guy coming around with similar road apples like that to sell, see he didnt get any buyers.

  265. Chemist, I’m not sure how long they have to file the appeal, but the Court of Criminal Appeals doesn’t have to hear it. Their court does what is called discretionary review. Just because you appeal doesn’t mean you will get heard, so the first step is to file a petition for discretionary review. The court will review what your PDR says and decide if they want to entertain it. If they do then briefs will be filed, if they don’t then you don’t file briefs.

  266. Thanks PT: Then the COCA is somewhat like the US supreme court ? They review cases and decide which ones they will hear. If they decline a case the lower court decision stands.

  267. As I understand it chemist, yes.

  268. Not enough screaming in capital letters for John Lester. Not enough outright hatred for women. Lester would give me a three day lecture on how as an ugly old woman I am not worthy to even discuss top ANY topic with him, but should just bow my head and listen to his interpretation of scripture with appropriate gratitude.

    But then, not a lot of “light on the subject”, either. Apparently the point is that no one cares about 14 year old girls getting raped, so it must be prejudice against the religion. Yawn. Think I’ve heard that one before. Wasn’t impressed.

  269. targeting a religion were the words of the man who wrote the laws to target a religion….they are not mine. WSJ was in an Arizona prison on charges that were dropped while the raid was executed . There is an old saying about the ends justifying the means………. in the end the courts will rule on the issue and we will see if “targeting a religion” is justifyable to catch a pervert…… Glossing over the means used to catch a pervert seems to be normal for this group. Be glad that noone picks up a phone and makes a call about some boogie man in your church.

    ==============================================

    If that happened, LE would search the building and find nothing.

    Warrants are means to FIND proof, not facts of proof themselves. They address probability. Was it probable that the FLDS were abusing children? Of course it was, many eye witnesses, people who have left the cult had already told their stories. How else would Rosita Swienton have known so much?

  270. Two courts have ruled on the issue already and they ruled in favor of LE and the prosecution. Stuff it until the Texas COCA rules on it.

  271. I still think ZXC is that short, skinny little argumentative guy who belongs to the Centennial Park Action Committee.
    ———————–
    I don’t think so anymore. That guy would chop his own finger off for penance, after misspelling a word or using poor punctuation. They do have similiar personalities, though. And both are gifted at circular arguments.

    Sis said this on September 4, 2011 at 3:38 AM

    Sis, what if he had a little too much Merlot with dinner and forgot his “proper grammar” when he came on here last night acting like an a$$?

    Anyway, is this the same guy you referenced on the previous thread – the one who got an 18-year-old as a 2nd wife recently?

  272. ZXC,
    FU
    LOVE,
    FRED

  273. ZXC, why don’t you trot on back over to MadBill’s blog and annoy him some, you’re old news here.

  274. ZXC,
    FU
    LOVE,
    FRED
    —————————-
    I’ve been waiting for you, Fred. Thank you for coming.

  275. Hmmm…Anon @11:04 maybe you’re right because ZXC @11:24 did sound like CPAC guy. Maybe he’s throwing curve balls.

    Yes, CPAC guy married an 18 year girl last month. I was told by a VERY reliable source that she had planned to go to college but changed her mind ‘all of a sudden’ and decided to turn herself over to the priesthood for a placement marriage. Lucky girl got CPAC guy who is the priesthood leader’s brother. God works in mysterious ways.

  276. Ah, always good to hear from Fred.

  277. Chemist, I’m not sure how long they have to file the appeal, but the Court of Criminal Appeals doesn’t have to hear it. Their court does what is called discretionary review. Just because you appeal doesn’t mean you will get heard, so the first step is to file a petition for discretionary review. The court will review what your PDR says and decide if they want to entertain it. If they do then briefs will be filed, if they don’t then you don’t file briefs.

    Proud Texan said this on September 4, 2011 at 8:30 AM

    Thanks for the above info, it’s my understanding that if Texas Court of Criminal Appeals doesn’t hear appeal, that Emack can only appeal to US Supreme Court, and they can choose also not to hear case which means lower court ruling stands, and there are no more appeals once US Supreme Court rules.

  278. Admin, I failed to use some common sense a little earlier. My apologies. This message will self destruct in 10 seconds.

  279. Lucky girl got CPAC guy who is the priesthood leader’s brother. God works in mysterious ways.

    Sis said this on September 4, 2011 at 3:04 PM

    Thanks Sis, it sounds like we’re talking about the same little, short, skinny, argumentative guy from CPAC, who is the brother of the Centennial Park “prophet”.

    Poor girl – wife #2. She forgoes her college career to “marry” this a$$hole.

    But of course when it is a “placement marriage” ordained by God, then what can the poor girl do? She either forgets about going to college and marries the a$$hole, or she’s going to go to hell.

    As another CP member once said, the Centennial Park people and the FLDS are cut from the same cloth. Profound words, IMHO.

  280. I, Fred, have not been speaking out enough I guess. I didn’t realized how much my comments have been missed. I have been remiss in my duties and will try to speak up more in the future.

    Love,
    Fred

  281. Poor girl – wife #2. She forgoes her college career to “marry” this a$$hole.
    ——————————————–
    I just had to copy and paste that because it’s worth repeating.

    Actually, it’s a perfect example of my favorite counter argument to the “I don’t care what adults do behind closed doors” statement. So, CPAC guy is 43 (his first wife is close to the same age) and his new bride is 18. How can she be an equal partner in this relationship with two adults twice her age?

    She will not be given the family checkbook. She will be given directions and chores, not equal respect. When you’re 18, you’re barely an adult. You can’t drink, but you can enter into an illegal relationship without anyone getting arrested? IMO, she did not get married, she became a live-in, unpaid nanny required to have sex with the man of the house. And she’s still too naive to understand what the hell she’s done. By the time she figures it out, she’ll have 6 kids.

    People don’t care what adults do behind closed doors until this is their 18 year old daughter’s life.

  282. BTW, I heard, and it’s only rumor so far, that CP men are having trouble knowing what to do with their plural wives. Polygamy is uncomfortable for some of these young guys, so they are putting their first wives IN CHARGE OF ( I wish I could underline that) any plural wives they may receive. Young men don’t want to deal with the messy stuff, or hurt anyone’s feelings, so plural wives are ‘under the thumb’ of first wives more than ever now.

    So, when you hear these women say they are “empowered”, believe them. When you hear a plural wife say it, you can believe she is repeating after the first wife.

  283. As another CP member once said, the Centennial Park people and the FLDS are cut from the same cloth. Profound words, IMHO.
    —————————————-
    They can ‘Bedazzle’ it all they want, but it is what it is.

  284. Sis, are you a former Centennial Park group member ? (Sorry if you have already introduced yourself, I might have missed it.)

  285. Old News……… Smiths religion is considerably older than me and it seems that the dogma is considerably more popular.

  286. Ever wonder why? I mean, why you arent so popular….

  287. Sis, are you a former Centennial Park group member ? (Sorry if you have already introduced yourself, I might have missed it.)
    —————————————-
    I mostly grew up during Leroy Johnson’s prophetic time when we were all one unhappy group. I was baptized into the FLDS at Rulon Jeffs’ house, Alta Academy. Since the split, I have family and contacts on both sides of the highway.

  288. Sis, are you able to visit or are you persona-non-grata to both groups?

    Alta Academy, huh, bet you have stories to tell from there.

  289. Mostly persona-non-grata. I rarely go back unless I need to.

    I only went to Alta Academy once to be baptized. Nothing unusual stands out in my mind. Except… there was a dead fly in the baptismal font. I assumed it had drowned, but maybe it was on the wall the day before and it had a gddmn heart attack.

  290. CP people are more friendly, but it’s hard to be around them.

  291. FLDS people are more honest about their feelings. If they don’t want to be around me, they don’t pretend. So, when they’re nice to me, it’s nice.

  292. Kinda makes ya wonder about what all the baptismal font at Alta saw given what the one at YFZ saw.

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