Book Discussion

Some were worried about spoiling it for others if they discussed newly published books in the General Discussion thread. While I doubt it would be a spoiler, I would like to hear what others have to say, especially about the 2 newest books, “Prophet’s Prey” and “Answer Them Nothing”.

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on August 26, 2011.

84 Responses to “Book Discussion”

  1. 🙂 Thank you ! When I made the comment that I had 5 “holy crap” moments it wasn’t meant to sound so bad. It was like eyes wide open mouthing the words “holy crap”. Actually a good comment despite how it looks.

    Answer them Nothing by Debra Weyermann

    she mentioned Gadianton robbers – is there anyone here that can explain this to me in Walton terms and …. do you think there is such a thing in today’s times?

    And does anyone know if she is going to do a follow up? Will this be a series until it is all done?

    ___________

    Prophets Prey by Sam Brower

    I see Sam has started work on a web site but it is still under construction. I thought I would try to write him but I don’t want to seem like a “stalker”. Does anyone know if he is going to continue to investigate the crimes within?

    And would he be interested in working with a “task force” if asked?

    Thanks again for starting this thread.

  2. I remember hearing about the Gadianton robbers when I was kid. I can’t remember the whole story, but the adults in my family used it as a scare tactic to keep us kids from climbing the mountain in CC with the fish shape in it. They said that’s where the Gadianton robbers (or the ghosts of) hung out and that they were evil. I climbed every mountain but that one.

  3. Thanks Sis. In Carolines book she talked about the stories that they would tell the kids. ( I’d have to look up page numbers) but it seems to fit in with all this.

    It also seems to fit in with a lot of what has been going on for many many years imo.

    If you find out any more info about this would you please share?

    Another question- Suzie Stubbs Holm- Wendy and Rod Holm case. Were they ever charged with fraud? If not, why not?

    And has the state gone after Rod Holm for back child support?

  4. Sam’s book is terrific – have the Kindle version, the hardcover is due for release August 30. Sam did an excellent job organizing all the facts for a number of cases, and he “filled in the blanks” for me on a lot of issues.

  5. she mentioned Gadianton robbers – is there anyone here that can explain this to me in Walton terms and …. do you think there is such a thing in today’s times?

    Walton asked what Gadianton robbers are. This is a Book of Mormon character who is very much like Warren Jeffs IMO. The robbers were his followers.

    4 For there was one Gadianton, who was exceedingly expert in many words, and also in his craft, to carry on the secret work of murder and of robbery; therefore he became the leader of the band of Kishkumen.

    24 And whosoever of those who belonged to their band should reveal unto the world of their wickedness and their abominations, should be tried, not according to the laws of their country, but according to the laws of their wickedness, which had been given by Gadianton and Kishkumen.

    26 Now behold, those secret oaths and covenants did not come forth unto Gadianton from the records which were delivered unto Helaman; but behold, they were put into the heart of Gadianton by that same being who did entice our first parents to partake of the forbidden fruit—

    Here’s links to verify above:

    http://lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/gadianton?lang=eng&letter=g

    http://lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/gadianton-robbers?lang=eng

    Now the above descriptions sound like Warren Jeffs IMO, one who is skillful in the big lie, being above the laws of his country when that felonious profits
    wickedness and abominations were revealed. One can remove the name Gadination from the Book of Mormon and replace it with Warren Jeffs, and the descriptions would be true IMO.

    The very book that Warren Jeffs claims as scripture condemns him.

  6. I know the story of the Gadianton robbers has been around CC for at least 60 years. If my memory serves me right, it was the spirits of the robbers that were haunting the mountain on the east side. I remember being afraid of evil spirits up there more than humans. How this folklore started is anyones guess. It seems there was a story of a man who said he was flown around the world by the robbers and was offered anything he wanted in exchange for his soul.

    I don’t know if he’s the one who started the folklore or if he just added onto it. (Or if ‘he’ was a fictional part of it for that matter). Does anyone else remember hearing of this man?

  7. I try to steer clear of books from former FLDS members because the very detailed details given by the victims themselves are trauma triggers for me. However, I am looking forward to reading Sam Brower’s book. He has done so much to help expose the ‘bad acts’ of the FLDS and, maybe this belongs in the Thank You thread, I am grateful for his compassion and determination.

  8. I don’t know if he’s the one who started the folklore or if he just added onto it. (Or if ‘he’ was a fictional part of it for that matter). Does anyone else remember hearing of this man?

    Sis said this on August 27, 2011 at 4:26 PM

    Sounds like local folklore story based on the Book of Mormon character Gadination, a scary story told around campfires while roasting hotdogs and marshmallows. Almost every town in the USA has it’s local stories about the “haunted house” down the road. In the case of the short creek, it’s the haunted mountain with evil ghosts of robbers.

    Who originated the story, most likely someone with a good imagination, for the purpose of entertaining children. Of course a good ghost story gets embellished over the years with retelling. So the part of the person flown around the world was most likely an embellishment to make an old folktale more fun and interesting IMO. AS to who first told the story this ole Texan doesn’t know.

  9. Walton asked if there is such a thing as Gadination robbers, yes Walton, he’s known as Warren Jeffs, and the robbers are those like Lyle Jeff, who rob the FLDS faithful. And the lawyers are thankful for the cash, kids college paid for and a trip with the wife to Europe.

  10. Of course it’s fictional, but if the adults didn’t believe it, they were very convincing in their telling of it in the light of day. We have to take into account the adults we’re talking about. The ones who believe they will burn in hell if they have less than three women in their harem or put one foot out of line with the prophet’s. And we can’t leave out their belief that God spoke to Joe Smith in person and that God also spoke/speaks to their prophet. Theirs is superstition on steroids. Maybe it was a scare tactic, but I’m not sure it was only the children who believed in the Gadianton robbers.

  11. According to Wikipedia there were three incarnations of the Gadianton robbers between 52 B.C. and 245 A.D. It also mentions that Joe Smith might have used them as an allusion to the Freemasons. “The description of the robbers, who claim to be a secret society whose works are good, but who are actually deeply involved in conspiracy and organized crime, are consistent with anti-Masonic caricatures prevalent in Smith’s time”.

    Also from Wiki: “There are folklore accounts of modern day Gadianton robbers. In 1962, an account was given that “The Gadeanton Robbers of the Book of Mormon fame were seen by freighters hauling between St. George and southern Nevada”.[6]

  12. So, it appears the folklore didn’t start in CC, but instead with the mother church around them. And that takes us back to my 5:27 post.

  13. I remember Caroline saying that the kids use to play games in the trees or in the hills and they were playing the games according to the stories that they were told from the scriptures. Scared the heck out of me when I read it and yet.. there was something in there that made sense of the fears that they had towards people of color.

    I did some checking and there is a lot said about all this. the tales are still being talked about today. Hinckley even mentions this during some of his speeches. As have others.

    In this book it mentions that the Tribune did an article in 1999. Rolly heard a story and started digging around.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=t2U-gAZnSnMC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=gadianton+arizona+highway+patrol&source=bl&ots=WkI2I32UtK&sig=XKAy3f461YzpzH1II6l2f_iOHno&hl=en&ei=vapYTtaFD4ivsAK66_iJDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=gadianton%20arizona%20highway%20patrol&f=false

  14. In some of the conversations that are on different message boards and in different articles concerning this topic they mention the words Secret combinations.

    http://www.latterdayconservative.com/articles/quotations-from-lectures-on-secret-combinations/

    Watch the videos.

    I think they might have even mentioned this during the Child Welfare hearings that they had in Texas. A child was drawing a photo that had disturbed the social worker. It came out that this young child was drawing a scene from one of the “religious stories” that he was told.

    This is yet another example why I think that there should be outside help.

  15. Walton, her name is Carolyn.

  16. PT, thank you! You beat me to it.

  17. When Debra Weyernann was discussing this strange Gadianton Robbers thing in her book, she referenced the then president, prophet, seer and revelator of the LDS church, Gorden B. Hinkley, having made a comment relating these Gadianton Robbers with the horrific September 11th World Trade Towers (and more) attacks on the USA. I guess this story is still something the LDS believers recognize.

  18. Walton, her name is Carolyn.

    Proud Texan said this on August 27, 2011 at 10:08 PM

    ——-

    I truly meant no disrespect to Carolyn. After I hit the post comment button it is out of my control. I have a friend who spells her name Caroline.

    I will take more time before hitting the send post button.

  19. No problem, walton, but it seems that you and CalJim (among others) call her Caroline. Her name is Carolyn. NOT Caroline.

  20. Warren made use of the Gadianton Robbers metaphor numerous times in his dictations.

    Primarily he would apply it to groups of the young men who were on his list to be gone.

  21. The Gadianton robbers are mentioned in the Book of Mormon. LDS people who are encouraged to read the BOM are familiar with the story about the Gadianton Robbers. In a similar way people who read the Bible are familiar with the stories of the Phiistines and of Samson.

    President Hinckley did refer to Gadianton Robbers in a talk he gave in October 2001. His remarks concerning Gadianton Robbers in that talk are shown below in quotes.

    “It is the terrorist organizations that must be ferreted out and brought down.
    We of this Church know something of such groups. The Book of Mormon speaks of the Gadianton robbers, a vicious, oath-bound, and secret organization bent on evil and destruction. In their day they did all in their power, by whatever means available, to bring down the Church, to woo the people with sophistry, and to take control of the society. We see the same thing in the present situation.”

  22. chemist- I liked President Hinckley. I didn’t agree with everything that he said or did but I enjoyed listening to him speak about different things. He had a voice and manner that made me want to understand things better.

    The whole thing with the Gadianton Robbers goes wayyyy back and yet is at the center of many stories. I will keep looking and am still trying to understand the whole thing.

    Another ahaa moment in the book Answer them Nothing was the fact that Attorney General Mark Shurtleff had gone to the LDS Church to let them know that he would be going after those breaking the laws inside of Polygamy. Now… why would he do that?

  23. I knew it! Upper LE looks to church leaders for a thumbs up or a thumbs down on this issue.

  24. From my view, the gadianton robbers are mentioned in the book of mormon and probably all active LDS people are aware of that story. P. Hincklry was likening the 9/11 terroists to the gadianton robbers in the b of mormon. Imo,
    there are no gadianton robbers today, although there may be groups today with similar methods and goals.

  25. I heard that the Sam Brower book has been put on hold while the publisher (which is backed by the Disney Corp.) promotes the new pro-polygamy book written by Joe Darger and Brook Adams. AAAP has put up a face book page about this as a protest. I suggest everyone who wants to stop the forward march of polygamy in this country visit this site, “like” it, and re-post

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Want-Disney-Corp-to-Stop-Promoting-Polygamy/187891617946641?sk=info

  26. Walton said: Another ahaa moment in the book Answer them Nothing was the fact that Attorney General Mark Shurtleff had gone to the LDS Church to let them know that he would be going after those breaking the laws inside of Polygamy. Now… why would he do that?

    Because the LDS church runs the state of Utah.

  27. So Bloomsbury USA is owned by the Disney Corp? Not hardly, it’s owned by McMillan which has nothing to do with Disney Corp as far as I can tell.

    I have no problem with people liking the Facebook page and asking Disney to stop promoting polygamy, but Sam’s book will be released tomorrow which is actually almost a month ahead of the original publishing date of September 23.

  28. Free and Clear- please bring me a link showing the info concerning Disney having anything to do with the promotion of the book.

  29. No sushi for me. 🙂

    Shurtleff has a had a few luncheon dates with people that have a history that comes back to bite him in the butt. And yet…. the guy still stands in position of Attorney General. Even Attorney Generals must answer to someone.

    Google Shurtleff lunch crime donations and see what you come up with.

    I think if memory serves me right someone had said that he had stayed in one of Jeremy Johnsons homes when he had a meeting in St. George. Cha ching cha ching

  30. An overwhelming majority of Utahns – 90 percent – believe in the existence of satanic or ritualistic abuse of children, even the sacrifice of babies, a Deseret News/KSL-TV poll shows

    chemist – Here is an article written in 92 . An overwhelming majority of Utahns – 90 percent – believe in the existence of satanic or ritualistic abuse of children, even the sacrifice of babies, a Deseret News/KSL-TV poll shows

    From what I have seen and not seen on the net that there has been anything to dispute these claims. Besides the whiteout that comes off with the age of time.

    In 2004-2005 there were a rash of small pet killings in the Avenues area of Salt Lake and some reported in Colorado around the same time. Some poor guy from the state made the comment that the killings were done by a coyote. The articles printed at the time said that the animals were cut with “surgeon precison”. Gutted out and found on owners properties. Some coyote.

    The info can be found on the net.

    Has anyone heard about the Paladins?

  31. Walton, Disney is promoting the Darger book, but they have nothing to do with Sam Brower’s book. It is promoting the Darger book because it owns Haper Collins Publishing.

  32. wow. Now that took me by surprise.

  33. Maybe I am getting too old. Or..maybe it is me.. that has my head in the sand.

    I find it really hard to read the newspapers these days.

    Watching the news on tv isn’t what it used to be.

    Picking out a book that isn’t labled “fiction” I thought meant was based on real life events searched and double checked and triple checked.

    Right or wrong I believed what people said to be true.

    Can’t blame any one but my self for being so gullible. I guess the term puppets on a string is what comes to mind.

    😦

  34. I heard that the Sam Brower book has been put on hold while the publisher (which is backed by the Disney Corp.) promotes the new pro-polygamy book written by Joe Darger and Brook Adams. AAAP has put up a face book page about this as a protest.

    FreeAndClear said this on August 29, 2011 at 6:51 PM

    This just sounds like a bunch of BS exaggeration on AAAP’s (and Flora Jessop’s) part. Can you provide solid evidence of Sam Brower’s book being “put on hold” – like something in print by the publisher, instead of something you posted on an Internet blog? Can you prove to me that my book is not going to ship out tomorrow?

  35. What a bunch of BS by this FreeAndClear poster. Please show me where Sam Brower’s book publisher is connected with Disney.

    http://www.bloomsburyusa.com/about
    http://www.bloomsbury-ir.co.uk/html/about/a_history.html

    The truth about the FLDS is bad enough. Why do people have to lie?

  36. Those Utah people must be strange. Both LDS and non LDS since the LDS are not 90% of the Utah population. Glad I do not live there.

  37. chemist, it doesn’t matter if the LDS are “only” 90% of the population of Utah, they still RULE the state. And YES, Utah people are very strange.

  38. I remember hearing about the Gadianton robbers when I was kid. I can’t remember the whole story, but the adults in my family used it as a scare tactic to keep us kids from climbing the mountain in CC with the fish shape in it. They said that’s where the Gadianton robbers (or the ghosts of) hung out and that they were evil. I climbed every mountain but that one.

    Sis said this on August 27, 2011 at 2:06 AM
    ———————————————————

    That brings up old memories. 🙂

    Like you, I have climbed about every mountain around there except the one with “the fish” in it. My mother told me as a child that in addition to the “spirits of the Gadiaton Robbers” being there, one of the Black’s (I can’t remember his name) communicated with them and was able to be transported from the top of the mountain, back to the valley floor in the blink of an eye.

    I haven’t continued passing on the stories with my own children. 🙂

  39. The Gadiantons were a group that required murder as a prerequisite to membership. Once in you were given assignments inside the order. They were hidden within society and had secret hand shakes etc.

    I was told about them too when I was a kid at the creek. That was the first mountain I climbed and I have been up in the ” Fish ” . Lots of people have inscribed their names there, Unc Fred & Roy…

    The skull and bones order which has held most recent presidents etc. is the modern version of the Gads. Bush Clinton & so on all have blood on their hands , they have ordered the deaths of many.

    They represent the dark order of the templars/alluminiti and include the family’s Rockefeller – Morgan and a few others. They still stay as low as they can ( No Pun ) And they do own the Fed. Reserve and almost every politician and higher up leader of the free world. They have a Band of ” Jackal’s ” That can make anybody ” Go Away ” and it looks like an accident. Mostly ex military .. High paid assassins

    Oh and they run the Pentagon and the White House
    And the own all the Media

  40. Here is Proof. Type” illuminati “backwards into your browser and finish it with dot com ( .com ) See where you go. Dont be scared, It has been this way for a long time

  41. Not to mention that they own all of the Subway sandwich shops.

    And tanning salons.

  42. Can you prove to me that my book is not going to ship out tomorrow?

    Anonymous said this on August 29, 2011 at 10:27 PM
    ———

    Has your book been sent out? I checked some different sites and they still have it listed as being available Aug. 30

    Walton

  43. I ordered a copy of “Prophet’s Prey” from Amazon weeks ago. I’ve had 2 emails from them since then advising that the release date has been moved forward. I just checked my email and I’ve got a message from Amazon saying my copy has been mailed. I have been busting to read this book. I wish I understood why I am so interested in these folks.

  44. I’ve read Sam Browers book Prophets Prey via kindle/nook and it is worth the read. imo it is a must read.

    You can keep up with the news on his twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/sambrowerpi

    I have great respect for Mr. Sam Brower

    Walton

  45. My copy of Sam’s book has also been shipped; it went out yesterday. I have no idea what the poster FreeAndClear is talking about. Disney appears to have no influence on Amazon booksellers. I just hate misinformation and exaggeration.

  46. Twitter today – several interesting items :

    waller_matthew Matthew Waller
    Ex- #FLDS bishop’s trial location uncertain, could have another hearing for it Sept 9
    9 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply »

    waller_matthew Matthew Waller
    Ex- #FLDS Bishop Fredrick merril jessop’s trial for illegal marriage ceremony may be Oct 31, judge determined to have it so
    10 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply »

    polyamorie Pieter Schultz
    Report cites flaws in raid at polygamist site / By Don Finley [US; San Antonio Express-News; #flds] http://alturl.com/eadqr
    4 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply »

    polyamorie Pieter Schultz
    OUR OPINION: Jeffs trial reveals gaps in #government response to crimes [US; SA Standard-Times; #flds #sexualabuse] http://alturl.com/po8up
    4 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply »

    BloomsburyPub Bloomsbury
    @ RT @SamBrowerpi I’ll be on @DrPhil third week of September – you can expect some surprises so be sure to tune in! #FLDS #WarrenJeffs
    31 Aug Favorite Retweet Reply »

    TheChalkOutline Scott Schwebke
    RT @Guy_Murray: Should Texas Force Feed Warren Jeffs? http://wp.me/p11nC-qV / #warrenjeffs #flds
    30 Aug Favorite Retweet Reply » Katy_Vine Katy Vine
    Eldorado Success says 14 #FLDS companies filed w/TX Security of State earlier this year to form merger “Phase-Tex LLC.” http://bit.ly/qCXJYI
    30 Aug Favorite Retweet Reply
    (you have to have a subscription to read this one – I couldn’t find anyting on google yet about Phase-Tex LLC)

  47. I should have posted about to general discussion – please move it or I can report later

  48. I think there may be some confusion. Release of Sam Brower’s book was not put on hold; some of his promotional interviews may have been delayed because of the timing of the release of the pro-polygamy Darger book (that book is published by Harper Collins, which is owned by Disney).

    Something similar happened years ago when I worked in publishing. Our house released the book by Jon and Patsy Ramsey about their daughter, Jon Benet, The Death of Innocence. About a week later another book came out by one of the original detectives accusing Patsy Ramsey of the murder. Interviews scheduled for the Ramseys with major media got bumped or delayed in the battle between publishing houses with competing titles.

  49. Thank you for these posts. We depend upon the information that you provide. God Bless!

  50. I think there may be some confusion. Release of Sam Brower’s book was not put on hold; some of his promotional interviews may have been delayed because of the timing of the release of the pro-polygamy Darger book (that book is published by Harper Collins, which is owned by Disney).

    texasconnie said this on September 2, 2011 at 6:31 AM

    texasconnie, I don’t buy it that any of Sam Brower’s book promotions have been “delayed”. Disney or not. But whatever you and FreeAndClear want to say is your choice..

  51. I’ve read both Brower’s book and Answer them Nothing – and I’m anxious to see what kind of response the books generate in the larger community.

    I honestly can’t interest most people I know in the subject. It is too foreign. It also involves the risk of trying to “fix” a community that just wants to be left alone. Most people I know have too many, more personally pressing concerns.

    The welfare abuse generates the most outrage. Personally, I think we all have a serious responsibility to protect american children from being born into a system that is purposefully designed to trap and enslave them.

    (i.e Get girls married and pregnant before they are old enough to think for themselves. Ensure the boys have no alternatives to total obedience, not matter the cost -until you decide to boot them out…)

    That is far more significant to me than the financial abuse.

    I work with a lot of teenagers – with a program that helps to train them to be engaged politically. That program starts up again for the year at the end of this month -and it will be interesting to me to see if any of them are moved to investigate this further. If one did chose to take it on, their task would be to propose federal legislation of some sort – and then advocate their bill throughout the year within the program. New legislation isn’t necessarily the biggest need – because the laws to protect people in these communities are in place – they just aren’t being enforced – but the program is designed to teach teens about the legislative process.

    This is the idea I’m playing with. I’m not a lawyer, constitutional or otherwise, but for the purposed of coming up with proposed legislation to generate debate and awareness – what about these:

    1. Revoke the tax-exempt status of any religious institution that requires members to commit felonies in order to remain in good standing, or that as a body actively engages in an encourages members to participate in financial fraud. There would need to be some provision to protect the rights of churches to engage in civill disobedience as a protest to what they see as “unjust laws” – but that civil disobedience could not include financial fraud, violation of statutory rape laws or violation of child labor laws.

    2. Define any closed community that actively grooms children for abuse by teaching them that they owe total obedience to the adult leadership – and have no ability to resist any demand, sexual or otherwise – as hostile to children. To receive such a designation, the community would need to be shown not only to actively engage in such grooming, but also law enforcement would need to demonstrate that abuse has occurred, that the grooming was a significant contributing factor in the past and that ongoing abuse remains a significant risk. The abuse can include child slavery, alienation of affection and neglect as well as sexual abuse.

    Adults who chose to live in such a community may do so, but they may not raise children there. If they do, the children can be taken by the state and placed in foster care until the parents leave the abusive community and reclaim them.

    What do you think? Useful? No? Other ideas? Again, I realize proposing new legislation is not necessarily the answer, but it is what I have to work with – in a program that reaches several hundred teenagers. Even then, all I can do is throw out the idea. One of them would need to run with it.

  52. Jerrie- your 11:08 post is great…anything that helps shut down finances flowing in criminal activity helps curtail it to a degree at least. Perfect, universal enforcement might not become reality but the plyg messes have to start getting the broom and bleach they’ve needed all these years. Police need to be replaced that have broken or ignored laws in the CC hildale area. If anyone from flds is ever hired again and they did same things they would have to be replaced again. Worrying about flds “going further underground” shouldn’t be a factor. They already are as underground as they could get up to this stage. Let them try to get under the radar even further, maybe they will finally try to leave the US and realize thye don’t want to, and will actually start following laws to keep all their perks.

    Utah really has its hands full. Reforms have got to get going and keep going. Better late than never. Utah and AZ need to block out the “it’s my religion” refrain once and for all and get successful prosecutions on the road for all felonies identified. Any other states identifying this polygamy scourge need to do the same thing.

    As well, the US and Canada should NEVER tolerate polygamists to bring extra wives into the US from elsewhere, or grant them public assistance. Anyone trying to flout our laws on family and welfare should be jailed immediately upon identification to keep the message clear and unified.

  53. There is also the issue of government contracts going to FLDS-owned or -operated businesses. They should be ineligible to bid on government contracts because of their child labor law violations, not to mention financial issues (profits actually going to the self-anointed prophet).

  54. I’d like to know why the Tax man hasn’t come forward and started pushing some charges against the many.

    Seems to me that Miss Naomi had some issues that were brought up in the early stories.

    And then there was the story that ABC did not so very long ago that stated that 42 out of 44 in Hildale had unpaid property taxes. Colorado City wasn’t much better.

    Wonder who is going to pick up all the properties by just paying back taxes.

    Someone said that Warren was having a home built back in the Creek. Why haven’t we seen any photos?

    Why haven’t we seen any current photos of Willie E. Timpson Jessop?
    Walton

  55. I am about half way through “Answer Them Nothing”
    even though I started tracking the FLDS when the raid happened so I am pretty knowledgeable after 3 years and know the ins and outs of the story and haven’t really seen anything new in the book – it is a good read and it still has the power to shock

  56. Brooke Adams goes in for a few knocks at swallowing the
    gee they are just really nice people who happen to practice polygamy and happen to have a few bad apples at the top….

    When you read the vast number of accounts of those trying to escape it does not seem like it is just a few bad apples. The very premise of polygamy corrupts the family life and creates dynamics that foster physical abuse.

  57. A couple of slippery slopes IMO…

    Jerrie said this on September 4, 2011 at 11:08 AM : “Define any closed community that actively grooms children for abuse by teaching them that they owe total obedience to the adult leadership – and have no ability to resist any demand, sexual or otherwise – as hostile to children.”

    For starters, how would you define “closed community” and “total obedience?”

    texasconnie said this on September 4, 2011 at 5:39 PM: They should be ineligible to bid on government contracts because of their child labor law violations [agreed as long as the violations are documented and proven], not to mention financial issues (profits actually going to the self-anointed prophet).

    As to the latter, what a government contractor does with their profits is not for others to determine. An exception being if those monies are used to commit crimes and if that is the case, then it, too, should be proven in a court of law.

    I don’t like the idea of children being raised under the control of a Warren Jeffs/Tony Alamo/whatshisfaceatHouseofYahweh or profits from government contracts being used to fund the likes of a Warren Jeffs while on the run as a federal fugitive/committing sexual assault, but I like even less any ideas of setting arbitrary standards.

  58. “Wonder who is going to pick up all the properties by just paying back taxes.”

    No one any time soon as those properties are (for the most part) involved in the UEP Trust suits.

  59. For starters, how would you define “closed community” and “total obedience?”
    ————————-
    HOA’s

  60. Gated HOA’s

  61. LOL, Sis.

  62. http://www.prophetsprey.com/

    Prophet’s Prey – Release date Aug. 30

    🙂

    And I hope this is followed by a 2nd and a movie or a mini series.

    Nice work Sam Brower.
    Walton

  63. For starters, how would you define “closed community” and “total obedience?”
    ————————-
    HOA’s
    Sis said this on September 5, 2011 at 3:28 PM

    What is an HOA?

    TexasTwist: You ask a very good question. You are right, that poorly worded legislation can have unintended consequences – and that is probably why there hasn’t been much call to enact new laws. I’m not entirely convinced new laws are the way to go. We should start by enforcing existing laws.

    I throw the idea out there because I work with a large teen program that involves teenagers researching, proposing and then promoting new legislation in order to learn how the legislative process works. It would be a good opportunity to raise awareness. Even if one of my teens is interested in taking this on, my role would simply be to make the suggestion, point him or her towards resources and act as an advisor. I can not and will not be pushing my own agenda through the teen.

    The issue you raise would absolutely come up in debate – and would probably kill the idea – unless it could be worded in a way that clearly targets only the most abusive situations.

    Possibly a closed community could be defined as one which practices shunning towards individuals who are rejected by the leader(s)? There are conservative christian churches that “disfellowship” members who commit adultery -without repentance for example, -but family members are never told they can’t associate with the individual any more. The disfellowshipped person loses worship privileges, but they don’t lose their home, family, job, etc. They don’t lose their place in their community.

    Even then – it would only be those communities who shun individuals who refuse to participate in felonies or who report felonies that would lose their religious exemption. Authorities would have no trouble producing individuals who were x-d for refusing to surrender child brides, for example. I’d like to find a definition that also included abandonment of teen boys. I have three teenage sons – so that issue really gets to me. It is every bit as evil and destructive as child rape in my opinion.

  64. HOA = Home Owner Association

    I think it was meant to be a joke, best appreciated by those perhaps once under the CC&R rules and restrictions of same.

  65. Jerrie- one of the things that I can’t understand is the whole thing about the Church owning so much property and businesses. The only outside “influence” is the tax dollars coming in.

    If your working for the Church, building for the Church, living on Church owned property via the many different pyramids wouldn’t the Church have the laws on their side if they kicked the adults out?

    It has appeared to me that many of the kids seem to be “abandoned” before they are even left along side of the road. Dad isn’t dad any more but a man, mom married an hour ago.

    5 mothers but no one to call mom.

    50 siblings and no classmate that isn’t somehow related. A teacher who is your brothers wife and your sister.

    With so many “bishops” and only one preacher man shouldn’t those bishops be licensed? and registered some place? and are all those “meeting houses” tax emempt?

    Walton

  66. –If you’re working for the Church, building for the Church, living on Church owned property via the many different pyramids wouldn’t the Church have the laws on their side if they kicked the adults out? – Walton

    I think it depends on what you mean by “kicked out”. Even religious-affliliated businesses are subject to anti-discrimination laws. There are some exemptions – but you can’t fire someone from a job on the grounds that they are no longer a member in good standing of your church. You also can’t pay less than minimum wage, employ under-age workers, withhold overtime pay, etc. Labor violations are taken very seriously in my experience – with complaints by low-wage workers taken seriously and investigations resulting in large penalties for violators.

    It seems very odd to me that FLDS businesses can get away with serious labor abuses. Do x’d/fired workers never file complaints?

    There are also no laws anywhere that give a religious organization authority over family ties. A church leader can’t legally declare a couple married or divorced without their consent. You can kick someone out of a worship service – but kicking them out of their family? That’s defies all logic and common decency.

  67. -It has appeared to me that many of the kids seem to be “abandoned” before they are even left along side of the road. Dad isn’t dad any more but a man, mom married an hour ago. – Walton

    Divorcing parents who try get their kids to shun the other parent regularly get slapped down by the courts – unless the other parent’s rights were already terminated for some reason. Most courts recognize that kind of behavior as abusive in it’s own right!

    Of course, in most places, you also can’t move your kids into a home with a known pedophile – because that puts them at risk for abuse. Even more to the point: a mother who fails to intervene to protect her kids from an abusive parent/stepparent/boyfriend can lose her kids – because she is placing her relationship with the abuser above the best interests of her kids.

    Why do these standards not seem to apply to FLDS communities?

    As far as tax-exempt status:

    If the known, recorded, acknowledged teaching of the FLDS *requires* members to commit felonies (participate in polygamous and underage marriages) should they retain tax-exempt status? it seems to me that organized, mandatory, law-breaking ought to disqualify a group.

    My understanding is that it was the threat of dire financial consequences that motivated the LDS church to renounce polygamy in the first place. Whatever happened to that strategy?

  68. Jerrie,

    I don’t think that strategy (in your 4:11 pm) would work with Warren’s FLDS.

    “It seems very odd to me that FLDS businesses can get away with serious labor abuses. Do x’d/fired workers never file complaints?”

    Rarely, if ever.

    Shem Fischer filed a wrongful termination suit against the FLDS church corporations and Warren Jeffs in 2002 due to being fired from Forestwoood.

    The suit against the FLDS corporations & WSJ was given the “answer them nothing” treatment and Fischer received a default judgment.

    http://www.tribblogs.com/polygamyfile/2009/10/at-last-one-case-closes/

    My guess is that more former FLDS don’t file suits or complaints for some of the same reasons that kicked out members rarely utilize the court systems to fight for custody or visitation with their children.

    From my limited knowledge, those reasons would be a desire to be “unhandled” and/or fear that retaliation would fall upon loved ones still in the group.

    I think for some of the younger members, maybe there is a mindset of just moving on with their lives rather than getting embroiled in what could be a long drawn out battle.

    I also think that the “us & them/FLDS & the rest of us” mentality has been ingrained deeper than most of us can comprehend.

  69. Of course, in most places, you also can’t move your kids into a home with a known pedophile – because that puts them at risk for abuse. Even more to the point: a mother who fails to intervene to protect her kids from an abusive parent/stepparent/boyfriend can lose her kids – because she is placing her relationship with the abuser above the best interests of her kids.

    Why do these standards not seem to apply to FLDS communities?

    My understanding is that it was the threat of dire financial consequences that motivated the LDS church to renounce polygamy in the first place. Whatever happened to that strategy?
    ————————————
    Answer to your first question: Because they live in Utah and AZ. The Safety Net committee is looking for foster homes in CC/CP and Hildale, inspite of a study, by Janet Bennion, that established polygyny itself as a risk factor for abuse. That’s what we can expect from the government that surrounds FLDS communities.

    Answer to your second question: The LDS church mostly gave up polygamy for Utah’s statehood. CC/CP/Hildale are within states that can’t cut them off financially based on their religion. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. And, for some reason, Utah and AZ seem eager to dole out the money. I don’t know why.

  70. I think for some of the younger members, maybe there is a mindset of just moving on with their lives rather than getting embroiled in what could be a long drawn out battle.

    I also think that the “us & them/FLDS & the rest of us” mentality has been ingrained deeper than most of us can comprehend.
    ——————————-
    So true, TT. I think the fact that people are so “beaten down” also comes into play. Courage for adults to stand up to the abuse is rare because it’s pounded out of them as children (emotionally and/or physically).

  71. Your input on something I’ve been wondering about, Sis…

    Do you think that there is a ongoing strengthening and empowerment of former FLDS taking place and that it is growing somewhat exponentially?

    If so, how much of a role would you say communication through blogs and social media has played?

    Seems like just over the past two years or so that more and more former FLDS are speaking out and standing up to be counted.

    That’s a very good thing, IMO.

  72. I think so TT. I didn’t get involved until I heard other people like me speaking out. For years, I didn’t think anyone would listen or care, but that’s not the case anymore.

    Because of the awareness today, I think people who leave have a better chance of succeeding on the outside than they might have 10 years ago. Their experiences are being publicly validated, not ignored, and that makes all the difference.

    If I could change one thing, while I’m standing, I would change the minds of lay people who believe polygyny should be decriminalized. I doubt those people have any idea the damage they do just by uttering those words within earshot of the people who have been victimized by it.

  73. Thank you, Sis. I appreciate your response and value your contributions to the discussions and your wicked sense of humor.

  74. Thanks, I appreciate that you said that 🙂

  75. If I could change one thing, while I’m standing, I would change the minds of lay people who believe polygyny should be decriminalized. I doubt those people have any idea the damage they do just by uttering those words within earshot of the people who have been victimized by it.

    Sis said this on September 6, 2011 at 6:37 PM

    I’m sure you already know this, but it is an important point to state: The only way to accomplish that is to do exactly what you have been doing: Speak out about your personal experience – and encourage others to do the same.

    From a distance the idea that government should not interfere with relationship choices made by “consenting adults” makes sense. If *I* stand up and say, “I think this is an unhealthy environment for children”, my opinion means little. If *you* stand up and say, “I suffered tremendously as a result of this system. Other children continue to suffer.” – that has real power.

    People do care when real abuses occur. We just have a hard time sorting out competing accounts of reality.

    One problem, I imagine, is that people who have suffered abuse often do not feel as though their experience matters. Part of the grooming process involves convincing a child that he or she has no personal value – and therefore deserves the abuse. That is deeply evil all on it’s own. That’s why you often hear “I just don’t want it to happen to someone else” rather than “He (or she) should be punished for the crime s/he committed against me!”

    When your entire community supports the abusers – I can’t begin to imagine what it takes recognize that you deserve better.

    The one thing no one can argue with is your personal story. When the personal attacks come, the details of your story remain. “I was a child. I had no power. I did not deserve to have xyz happen to me. There are laws against this system for a reason.”

    Neglect, physical abuse, sexual abuse, denial of education, enslavement, abandonment, alienation of affection from a parent, etc: any and all crimes should be called out – not just the ones that grab headlines.

    Only those who have suffered as a result of polygyny can convincingly argue that it is an inherently abusive system. The rest of us are only theorists.

  76. Great comment, Jerrie.

  77. Jeri/Sis
    you conversation has made my eyes blink….

    and think about my 24 year old daughter who thinks it is all about live let live – growing up as she has in her generation with an acceptance of gay marriage (which I agree with) – but gay marriage is not about institutionalizing inherently unequal relationships….

  78. hellohellogoodbye:

    A couple of quotes that have stuck with me over the years – that I think are worth passing on to the next generation :).

    “It’s important to be open minded, but not so open minded that your brains fall out.” (Not sure who first said it, but I like the idea: Be open to new ideas, cultures, ways of thinking, etc. – but just as not everything new or different is “bad”, not everything new is good, either. Hold on to your common sense.)

    “Wisdom is justified by her children.” (Luke 7:35, I believe)
    The best way to sort out the truth is to look at the effects of a given philosophy in action.

    “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” This is as true in families and churches as in politics. It is not universally true because some leaders who have no checks on their personal power answer in their hearts to God or chose to behave well out of love, etc. However, any system gives power to one adult over another *will* result in abuse. Even well intentioned leaders begin to believe their own press and think their decisions are better than the ones their charges might make on their own.

    My personal happiness and safety should not be a matter of luck, based on choices made by my spouse or religious leader. It should lie within my own control. I do not give up my rights simply because I was born female or into a particular culture. We, as a nation, should not necessarily dictate to other countries how they should live – but we have no business kicking American citizens to the curb out of an excess of respect for the faith-based mandate that religious or family leaders might claim they have to control their members.

  79. Jerrie

    you said:

    “My personal happiness and safety should not be a matter of luck, based on choices made by my spouse or religious leader. ”

    I think you should amend it to be:

    or choices made by my parents…. or something like that…

    Actually my daughter is groping her way toward your philosophy. She is volunteering abroad and while she wants to be as open minded as possible she finds that somethings (like how women are treated) are not morally equivalent and can not simply be accepted based on an multicultural acceptance

  80. “I think you should amend it to be: or choices made by my parents…. ”

    Very true – and much more to the point in this case.

    “She is volunteering abroad and while she wants to be as open minded as possible she finds that somethings (like how women are treated) are not morally equivalent and can not simply be accepted based on an multicultural acceptance”

    Good for her! It’s a tough issue to grapple with – and I have the utmost respect for people who are willing to wrestle with it – instead of just jumping on one bandwagon or another.

    When the 9/11 hijackers flew those planes into the WTC they made a strong case against our odd notion that “it doesn’t matter what you believe, as long as you are sincere.” Clearly, if you plan to act on what you believe – the details matter.

    I have a son at West Point – and he is on a similar journey. He is much smarter than I am – in terms of pure cognitive ability, but he needs to live certain things to truly understand them. It’s too easy to put people in a box and say “well if it works for them, I guess it’s OK”. Sometimes “it” doesn’t “work” but you can’t always tell that from your comfy lawn chair on the outside.

  81. The best way to sort out the truth is to look at the effects of a given philosophy in action.
    ————————————
    Thank you for your comments, Jerrie.

    *necessary profanity alert*

    Your comment that I copied and pasted is an academic version of something profound that my AA sponsor once told me: “The truth stands on it’s own, bullshit needs support”. That statement had an immediate effect on my way of seeing the FLDS and the world. It changed my life.

    Everytime I hear a woman talk about how great polygamy is because it gives her a “built in babysitter”, “more freedom”, and “makes her a better person”, I call bullshit. I want to talk to the “built in babysitter”, who spends her days off in a locked psych ward.

  82. Curious?

    Love times three on Good Morning America http://abcnews.go.com/US/love-times-inside-polygamous-marriage/story?id=14501794

    3 pages to this article
    video clip with the Dargers
    additional videos with Sister Wives
    poll asking the public if Polygamy should be made legal ( fine print states that the poll is for entertainment purposes)
    Comments

    One of Joes mothers suggest that the two teen girls interested in Joe both share Joe as opposed to “competing” for Joe.

    Joe marries his step mothers sister and friend then marries his wifes sister

    Joe is concerned that there will be issues with the law because as everyone knows Polygamy is still illegal.

    Reflecting on the meaning of their beliefs helps the woman deal with their insecurities and jealousy.

    Wasn’t on the clip but I am sure somewhere in the book it might state that they all love each other and that they are different than the FLDS.

    Everyone has the right to tell their story but it sure seems like this one has been told a time or two.
    Walton

  83. Prisons of the Mind
    The Goat Woman by Kaziah Hancock

    In December 1985, Kaziah Hancock stood on the steps of the courthouse in Salt Lake City and yelled, for everyone to hear, “Thank you God, I’m free!” She had no concept of freedom. Born into polygamy 34 years earlier and raised in what she describes as mental chains, it would be another 15 years before she could slough off the shackles off the prison in her mind and begin her journey toward freedom and success.

    http://www.childbrides.org/kaziah.html

    Walton

  84. here is a review of “Answer Them Nothing”
    http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/arts/report/092811_jeffs_review/account-warren-jeffs-fanaticism-riveting-read/

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