General Discussion #58

Continued from General Discussion #57

Warren Jeffs Trial coming up shortly.  Stay tuned!


~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 6, 2011.

398 Responses to “General Discussion #58”

  1. Vancouver – “In late 2005, the now-jailed polygamist leader Warren Jeffs called two men in Bountiful, B.C., and told them to bring their 12-year-old daughters to the United States to be wed, according to passages from Jeffs’ diaries presented in a B.C. court Tuesday.
    Jeffs, who was in his late 40s or early 50s at the time and already married to dozens of women, told the men the girls would become his new wives.
    In the diaries, Jeffs describes one of the fathers as “thrilled” with the news and he goes on to describe the marriages themselves, in which he and the girls were “sealed for time and eternity.”

    Not 14 or 15 years old, but 12 year old children being married to warren. Only fellow pedos could support and celebrate this.

  2. “The Lord showed me in this vision, the first Presidency are giving their lives for this cause, That no matter what happens, Bother Merril would cling to me, tie to me, talking of Priesthood, tying to the Lord.”
    From Warren Jeff’s dictations, October 15, 2005.

    Now in 2011 Merril has been handled, kicked out of his priesthood calling in the first presidency. Guess warren got it wrong in 2005. A false prophet!!

  3. Warren dictates a lot of really appalling visions and dreams; and then he makes a LOT of decisions about individuals’ lives (and everything else) based on his visions – dreams – heavenly sessions (I call them delusions), and hundreds of lives are changed, some over and over again.

    But it’s their own damn fault for not having enough faith and obedience, right?

  4. I need to check and see what Warren’s dictations say about his stay in the Schleicher County jail.

  5. Chemist you’re exactly right about Warren cherry picking the youngest girls for his own stable but the co-operating Priesthood men and Bishop, also, enjoined upon celestial sealings because what is really going on is a livestock market made up of ‘Child Brides’. you didn’t mention the fact that Warren S. Jeffs wants the girls taught and groomed to,”Get close quickly” which is fundy talk for the sex act that consumates the celestial sealing. Obviously, Warren doesn’t want some young minor girl balking at his bedside and wants to be ensured that the girl knows that she must pillow with him. He’s a first degree predator and doesn’t want to be bothered with indepedent or resistant victims.

  6. Lyle better go out and collect some more tithes, Warren’s gone and hired another attorney to act as co-counsel with Jeff Kearney. The new hire is Houston attorney Emily Munoz DeToto. She filed an appearance on Friday, July 1. She’s already been busy redoing the Motion to Recuse Judge Walther. She wants Judge Hyde to have another hearing on the matter he just had a hearing on less than a month ago.

    I’m getting the feeling that Warren doesn’t want to leave the cozy confines of the Schleicher County jail.

  7. Emily Detoto has dedicated her entire career exclusively to the practice of Criminal Law. After graduating from St. Mary’s University School of Law, Emily accepted a prestigious position as a Briefing Attorney at the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals.
    Emily is a former Assistant Harris County District Attorney and a former Associate of the criminal defense firm of Schneider & McKinney, P.C. Now, owner and operator of The Law Office of Emily Munoz, Emily has earned the distinction of being a Criminal Law Specialist by becoming Board Certified in Criminal Law. Emily is a graduate of the Gerry Spence Trial Lawyers College and has had the honor of being selected as a faculty member and presenter at the Criminal Trial Advocacy Institute.
    Emily has served as Treasurer and Vice President of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association. Emily was named a Texas Rising Star for 2004, 2005 and 2008, and 2009 by Texas Monthy Magazine, is a member of the United Who’s Who Registry and has appeared on “Inside Edition” “Primetime Live” and “Celebrity Justice.”

    Her wibsite:

  8. PT, I’m gonna lose it…. But don’t bad mouth Gerry Spence. Tell me the judge won’t allow another continuance. For all involved, I am gonna pour something strong….

  9. RE: the Darger book: The teaser talks about them being “a” family spurring “Big Love”, not “the family” and if you have watched and you know the real history it is a conglomerate of all the groups. I certainly don’t know everything, but ask me an incident and I’ll tell you the actual family involved, as long as people are kept safe. Everybody mixed in. But that’s the way it is and the way it always has been.

    Walton, I am often without words, but stay with us.

  10. I am really enjoying this world economy debate between CAJim and Betty.

    I’ve got to hand it to Betty, she is one sharp cookie and is holding her own in the debate.

    Betty if you ever make it out to Utah, I really want to meet you. You are quite an amazing lady in so many ways. I have admired you for a couple of years and find you quite inspiring.

    CAJim, if you ever make it out to Utah, I want to meet you, too. You have a lot to add to this blog and I appreciate what you have to say, even if you can’t spell – LOL.

    OK, the commercial is over. Let the debate continue!

  11. Brooke Adams is only in it for Brooke Adams, the pro-polygamous apologist.

    She got the SLTribune to threaten the Hope Org with a lawsuit because they posted her news articles.

    Brooke Adams couldn’t stand the fact that her articles were being associated with a charitable organization trying to help victims of polygamy. That concept would be counter-productive to Ms. Adam’s goal of telling the world that there are no victims of polygamy.

    But, we all know better. There are MANY victims of polygamy and hundreds (if not thousands) of them live in Utah.

  12. Walton, you asked at the bottom of the other thread # 57 who Linda Kelsh is. l know her name to be spelled Kelsch. She is a daughter of Louis Kelsch who was one of the original members of the Council of Friends (precursor to the Priesthood Council) with Lorin C. Woolley, John Y. Barlow, J. Leslie Broadbent, Joseph W. Musser, Charles Zitting and LeGrand Woolley.

    This was the Priesthood Council of Fundamentalist Mormons formed in the early 1900s to keep the principle of plural marriage alive.

    Linda Kelsch ran for the Utah State Legislature 4-5 years ago representing her Park City, Utah community. Thank god she lost the race.

    It is my understanding that Linda was one of the 4 original founders of the pro-polygamy group, Principle Voices of Polygamy, along with Mary Batchelor, Anne Wilde and Marianne Watson.

    I think over time, Linda and Marianne went by the wayside in that group and Anne and Mary took it over.

    I am not sure if or how she is related to Vicki Kelsh who has out this new book:
    Love Times Three: Our True Story of a Polygamous Marriage
    by Alina Darger, Joe Darger, Valerie Kelsh, Vicki Kelsh

    Maybe Vicki just modified the spelling of her surname, or it is spelled wrong on the link you provided on the other discussion thread.

    Perhaps Valerie and Vicki are Linda’s daughters because their ages would be right. But maybe they aren’t related at all.

    I do know that when John Y. Barlow started his United Order BS and the Council of Friends had their first slit (with Joseph Musser siding with Rulon Allred and the AUB group) and John Y. Barlow and Charles Zitting siding with today’s FLDS group, that Louis Kelsch said to hell with all of them and became an Independent polygamist.

    OK, so that is the end of our Mormon Fundy history lesson for tonight.

  13. Annonymous, actually I can spell but I have lost my access code to the wordpress on this blogsite and don’t bother with my typos. I wish this blogsite had an edit button, like the Sltrib. I too admire Betty but obviously we disagree at times but she’s a great voice against the pedophile Priesthood and has fought tirelessly for many years. She can put Hugh ‘Child’ McBryde and William James MadeWacky in their respective places in just a few postings.
    Brooke Adams recent posting on the Sltrib had glowing praises from a lesser contributor to that blogsite in it’s busier days, me thinks that this poster, namely “Gordo” must be one of the Dargers, that poster was a definite polygamy apologist and granted unrestrained comments from Brooke.

  14. I have decided to post this scriptural viewpoint from King James version for it’s context and historical importance on how St.Paul and Timothy came to spread the Gospel into Europe as opposed to Asia. “Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. After they had come to Mysia, they tried they tried to go into Bythnia (Southwest region of the Black Sea), but the Spirit did not permit them. So passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas”. Acts of the Apostles 16:6-8. This then aimed their second missionary spread of the Gospel directly West and into Greece and ultimately Rome itself, I look upon this fact as a recorded sign that the Western Civilizations rise and conversion to Christianity has a Divine purpose. I would like to mention that both India and China do not have a Christianity foundation upon which to build their bid to Super Power status and maybe flawed to ever achieve it.

  15. Love your New Testament re-write, CaJim.

  16. If you grasp this quote from the Acts then look today to Israel and decide which world power today or tomorrow looks to be her staunchest ally and stalwart friend. Answer: the same country that aided her in the Yom Kippur War, replacing tank for tank actual field losses in the Suez battle for control on the Saudi Penninsula . The Soviet Union at that time had no waqy to airlift tank replacement support other than three month shipment by maritime freighter, a little late to do much good.

  17. The history I have been reading places the rise of the industrial revolution to a combination of unique factors in Europe, one of which was the temporal and political power of the church (not it’s theology) which placed it in direct competition with secular (kingly) power. This carved out a niche for the types of groups that survive any super power conflict. They play off the two super powers and live in the shadows – those people were entrepreneurs and the universities. The universities became the location of the protestant/independent theologies until such time as the secular powers “won” and brought them under control. The entrepreneurs/technologists continued to exist outside state monopoly and by the time the secular states had “won” the church/state battle they (entrepreneurs/technologists) had developed the economy to the point that they could not be brought under control. The universities came late to the support of the scientific revolution only beginning technical education in the beginning of the 1800s, primarily in Germany (which had had the most fractured secular/religious power structure).

    My “take” on this is yes Christianity had “a” role, not “the” role.

  18. With respect to technical developments:

    1. paper – China
    2. glassworking – Middle east until it passed into the hands of Venice (Murano Island)
    3. Ceramics – China invented porcelains; Islam invented highly glazed majoilicas which allowed the “middle class” to have both art and utilitarian objects.
    4. Control of gases (alebic) which allowed the invention of mineral acids (sulfuric and nitric acids) which allowed better control of and purification of metals – ~ 1200 Islam – direct result would be musical instruments using wire strings and nearly all of advanced metallurgy
    5. Gunpowder – China

    Personally I still think it is about Empire and control of natural resources…
    I have no doubt that China has mastered and will control scientific innovation in the future – whether or not that constitutes a continuation of “Western” achievements or not seems to me to be a “moot” point

    Innovation and technical explosions all come about when a) you have a stable society economically that b) has resources to devote to education and investigations and c) has had a fairly recent power upheaval that allows in immigrants and allows the questioning of accepted technologies and values.

  19. HHG interesting points but I am curious if the history your reading discusses what happened when the Jewish community was allowed access to the University system and if they resulted a traceable growth of empowerment , like the Rothschilds? I think many innovations from Asia took East meets West to creat the fusion effect, i.e. gunpowder was used for fireworks in China and the West turned it’s application into projectile weaponry. Who gets the credit for the Los Alamos project and the A-bomb? The Jewish scientists that worked out the theory into a successful testing or the military/industrial complex that fronted the cost of rearch and development. Chairman Mao’s suppression of the Chinese intelligencia may stunted China’s development and the military junta today seems to be holding a similar effect. Our Declaration of Independence claimed that we had certain inalienable rights, granted to us from a Higher Power this concept is foundational to what followed, does China have such a belief system? Has China have the concept of Democracy or a Republic?

  20. 3C, I can’t say yet what this new attorney will cause. I don’t think a new attorney alone will be enough to cause a continuance, but I have been wrong before. The actual saving grace in this whole mess is that there is already another trial setting on the books. Warren is due in Court on Oct. 3 for his felony bigamy trial. That said, I do not want this trial continued, I think Warren has already played way too many games and wasted too much of this Court’s time with his antics.

    I don’t remember the other trials getting these kinds of continuances or playing games. Here are the previous trial dates:

    Raymond – Oct 26, 2009
    Keate – Dec 7, 2009
    Emack – Pleaded in early Jan 2010
    Lehi – Pleaded in late Jan 2010
    Leroy – Mar 8, 2010
    Abram – Jun 7, 2010
    Dutson – Oct 2010

    Emack was originally scheduled for Jan 25, 2010 and Lehi for April 26, 2010. Dutson was originally scheduled for Jul 26, 2010. Wendell for Sept 7, 2010 and Merril for Oct 11, 2010. Leroy J. Steed was originally set for Dec 6, 2010.

    Then came the Warren game playing. It pushed Dutson’s trial back 3 months and so far has postponed the other 3 for over a year.

  21. i just want to thank all you posters on this site. it is a great place to keep updated on what is going on re polygamy. can i say hi to walton?

  22. Is this a cousin 3C?

    Birth Date: 05/21/93
    Address : 460 W ACADEMY AVE, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    17:00:00 07/04/11 Barlow, Helaman COLO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  23. Just got notice from the 3rd Court of Appeals that Raymond’s appeal is ready to be set for oral arguments. Keate’s case and both of Lehi’s cases are ready for disposition on briefs.

    There still isn’t a ruling in either of the Emack cases.

  24. Houston attorney Emily Munoz DeToto.

    Isn’t she the first female attorney involved in this unholy mess? Since female aren’t valued [other than as breeders] by this group, I’m naturally suspicious…there must be some ulterior motive!

  25. Oh sure, they’ll always hire a female couselor, of course prairie dresses are frowned upon don’t wante to appear too regimented or archaic to the jurors and Press cameras. Warren had that pixie blond gal that sat at the defense table with Wally Bugden, you remember. Sorry, can’t recall her name now but there have been so many counselors it rivals the plural wives population of some FLDS leaders.

  26. Oh yeah, I remember now Tara L. Isaacson, she seemed fairly competent but he got convicted anyway but it was overturned later on flawed Jury instructions, then Allen Steed plead guilty to a lesser charge and Warren’s retrial seems to be in limbo, for now. Sure would like to know when the Federal fugitive case gets scheduled for trial.

  27. OOPSY

    Warren fires Fort Worth atty Kearney within a couple weeks of trial, is it a stall tactic?

    How long should he be allowed to play this game?

  28. Yeah MC, he’s hoping for a continuance.

  29. Maybe for his next act he will plead guilty.

  30. His Prophet meter is broke.

    He keeps asking for a refund, God said not to worry, he would get his reward in the end.

  31. Seems like Kearney is going to have to vouch for this change, to some degree or no continuance would be granted. Sure would help for an appeal though to claim that your chosen counsel simply didn’t have enough time to prpare a proper defense. Heah, Warren howse tha ‘Answer Them Nuthin’ defense strategy working for you?

  32. Nice writeup on history, HHG. I agree.

  33. Why thank you, Anonymous for the kind words! I like to travel, but the last few years have not been kind to us financially, so I have no current plans to head west. I will certainly let everyone here know if I decide to make a journey West.

  34. Proud Texan on July 7, 2011 at 8:53 AM

    I would guess that the Cooke boy arrested Monday in the Creek is an apostate. Helaman doesn’t arrest his own brethren.

  35. Ditto on that, must be a lost boy who dared talk back?

  36. If y’all recall, I created a spreadsheet of the FLDS attorneys over a year ago because comments were going around that there were more than 50 different FLDS attorneys at the time (on various and sundry cases) and I had to prove to myself that was an accurate number – and it was (at the time).

    I gave up on keeping my spreadsheet list of the FLDS attorneys updated about 45 additional attorneys ago. It proved to be just too exhausting. With the latest BS by Warren hiring and firing attorneys like there is no tomorrow, I see that I made the right decision.


  37. Tara L. Isaacson was ruthless and brutal with the prosecution witnesses in Warren’s Utah trial. She stands at least 6 feet tall and has an intimidating court presence. She tried to rip poor Elissa Wall into shreds, but brave Elissa didn’t let her get under her skin.

    I think a female attorney was on the defense team just to cross examine the female prosecution witnesses. I guess they thought it would be good for the jury to see a female attorney question the female witnesses about such personal things as having been forced to marry your cousin and then be raped by him when you are only a 14-year-old teenager.

    I would guess this is why Warren has hired this Emily Munoz Detoto.

  38. I sure am glad that I read this blog because I find out SO MUCH sooner what is going on than if I just got my news from the SL Tribune. Word about Warren’s new female attorney was reported here by Proud Texan yesterday.

    The SL Tribune just reported the same “news” 2 hours ago. Hey, Trib, got news?

    Way to go Proud Texan and thanks for keeping us informed about the BS Warren’s pulling in Texas. YOU ROCK PT!!!!

  39. Bets that the next time Warren fires his latest attorney will be because he got a revelation from God that he is to defend himself.

    If Warren gets dissatisfied with God’s advice, can he fire him?

  40. Thanks Anon @ 7:23, but I can’t take credit for getting the info. I got it from the Eldorado Success.

  41. Hey – Excel Anon – great to see you !

  42. Teenage births are decreasing in frequency in the US according to recent reports – from Medscape :
    The birth rate among adolescent girls aged 15 to 17 years declined from 21.7 per 1000 in 2008 to 20.1 per 1000 in 2009.
    Rates of preterm births (<37 weeks' gestation) decreased from 12.3% in 2008 to 12.2% in 2009.

    "The change in the preterm birth rate is especially welcomed because infants born preterm are at high risk for early death and long-term health and developmental issues," said Alan E. Guttmacher, MD, director of the Eunice Kennedy Shriver National Institute of Child Health and Human Development.

    "The decline in the adolescent birth rate is also good news," he added. "Compared to infants born to older mothers, these infants are at higher risk for low birth weight, and they are predisposed to serious health problems — even death. Children of adolescent mothers are also less likely to earn high school diplomas, and the adolescent mothers also have limited employment prospects and future earning ability."

    Birth Date: 11/10/77
    Address : 1720 10TH S NUM 4, Great Falls, MT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    14:52:00 07/07/11 Johnson, Stev-H HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-6A-1715 CARELESS DRIVING CM WCJ3 310.00 310.00
    41-6A-1635(1) WINDOW TINT VIOLATION CM WCJ3 50.00 50.00

  44. Polygamist victim moves on.

    “The 23-year-old Utahn has found a platform for that message — she’s signed on with ABC News. “She’ll be a contributor for all ABC News programs and platforms,” said network spokeswoman Julie Townsend.
    Smart will contribute to everything from “Good Morning America” to “ABC World News Tonight” to “Nightline” to the website. “She will help our viewers better understand missing-persons stories from the perspective of someone who really knows what the family experiences when a loved one goes missing,” Townsend said.”

  45. Hey, PT
    as always thanks for keeping track of the arrest records….

    The only thing is I have no clue what the various numbers are – the last one you listed is clear but sometimes I am sitting there thinking huh? If you know what the listings are I wouldn’t mind a translation at the end of the posting.

    If not thanks again

  46. Sometimes I don’t know either HHG. I usually rely on 3C to straighten me out.

  47. Paul is the son of Louis Jessop and his Sylvester wife. He’s working construction up in Montana. The same project that the Emack boy who drowned was working on.

  48. I wonder what the birthrate for that age group was at YFZ, BiB? Close to 100%?

  49. Anon, sadly Leroy Emack’s body was recovered from the Rainbow Dam intake on the Missouri River, near Great Falls, on Tuesday morning after an apparent canoeing accident involving two other young men who swam to safety but Leroy, listed as aged 21 years old, apparently stayed with the capsized canoe. He had been working for PPL Montana doing construction work at Malstrom Air Force Base, floatation and life-vests were not in use prior to the accident.

  50. Leroy Emack’s accident was last year over the 4th of July holiday, 2010, sorry if my posting appeared to be a current event.

  51. Oh boy! Amazon shipped my copy of Debra Weyerman’s “Answer Them Nothing” book today!

    Walton, you asked at the bottom of the other thread # 57 who Linda Kelsh is. l know her name to be spelled Kelsch. She is a daughter of Louis Kelsch who was one of the original members of the Council of Friends (precursor to the Priesthood Council) with Lorin C. Woolley, John Y. Barlow, J. Leslie Broadbent, Joseph W. Musser, Charles Zitting and LeGrand Woolley.

    This was the Priesthood Council of Fundamentalist Mormons formed in the early 1900s to keep the principle of plural marriage alive.

    Linda Kelsch ran for the Utah State Legislature 4-5 years ago representing her Park City, Utah community. Thank god she lost the race.

    It is my understanding that Linda was one of the 4 original founders of the pro-polygamy group, Principle Voices of Polygamy, along with Mary Batchelor, Anne Wilde and Marianne Watson.

    I think over time, Linda and Marianne went by the wayside in that group and Anne and Mary took it over.

    I am not sure if or how she is related to Vicki Kelsh who has out this new book:
    Love Times Three: Our True Story of a Polygamous Marriage
    by Alina Darger, Joe Darger, Valerie Kelsh, Vicki Kelsh

    Maybe Vicki just modified the spelling of her surname, or it is spelled wrong on the link you provided on the other discussion thread.

    Perhaps Valerie and Vicki are Linda’s daughters because their ages would be right. But maybe they aren’t related at all.

    I do know that when John Y. Barlow started his United Order BS and the Council of Friends had their first slit (with Joseph Musser siding with Rulon Allred and the AUB group) and John Y. Barlow and Charles Zitting siding with today’s FLDS group, that Louis Kelsch said to hell with all of them and became an Independent polygamist.

    OK, so that is the end of our Mormon Fundy history lesson for tonight.

  52. Sorry about the re-post on Linda Kelsch. That was still cached for some strange reason.

    All I wanted to say was that Amazon shipped my copy of “Answer Them Nothing” book today.

    I don’t know why the other stuff below that was posted. hmmmmm.

  53. It’s not available in Kindle format Anon. I requested that it be made that way though. I’m still reading Susan Ray Schmidt’s Favorite Wife.

  54. Who are the two “brides” sitting on Warren and Rulon’s laps?

  55. Who are the two “brides” sitting on Warren and Rulon’s laps?

    an older anonymous said this on July 8, 2011 at 11:12 AM

    Sisters Mary and Edna Fischer – Erwin’s daughters. They both married Rulon Jeffs on the same day. Lucky them. They were “inherited” by Warren upon Rulon’s death.

  56. OOOPS, my answer about Edna and Mary are the 2 sisters sitting in the swing with Rulon behind them. Sorry, I got confused – no surprise there!

  57. Susan Ray Schmidt’s “His Favorite Wife” is my absolute favorite book written by any of these ladies who escaped from polygamy.

    What a great book!!!!

  58. i just want to thank all you posters on this site. it is a great place to keep updated on what is going on re polygamy. can i say hi to walton?

    texski said this on July 7, 2011 at 8:47 AM

    Good to see you. I hope all is well with you and yours. I miss the old house and it seems as if I am always cookin’ in someone elses kitchen. Hugs to you Texski.

    3rd cousin- thank you for your concern. Despite my temper tantrums and feeling sorry for my self- I am truly here for the long haul.

    Anon. – thanks for the info on Linda Kelsch. I believe the whole Pro-Polygamy scene is connected with Sister wives/ the new book and much more. Isn’t some of Tom Greens history in there somewhere as well?

  59. WSJ attempts recusal:

  60. **News flash ** I am sure this will be the next info in the papers in about 2 weeks.

    *** This is fake*** not real** made up**

    Warren Jeffs is going to fire this new attorney and will make it known that all along he has been waiting for Harvey the Rabbit to be released from the hospital to begin work on his trial.

    Harvey the Rabbit with all of his experience is going to ask for a dismissal because it isn’t really Warren Jeffs in the jail. It is none other than John Findley.

    They will call their #1 witness and the courtroom will become chaotic as Elvis enters the building.

    Judge Walther will try to gain control of her courtroom but Walton appears with Dean Martin, Ricky Nelson and Walter Brennon singing My Rifle, pony and me.

    I still have a sense of humor. Warped maybe. But a sense of humor none the less.

    I know you guys can’t tell me stuff. I’ve said my self that I have a big mouth. And I do. When I think someone is getting hurt or scammed – I speak up. But I am also able to keep my mouth shut so others don’t get hurt.

    I’ve never faked anything other than my name. I don’t believe in Polygamy. I don’t like child molesters and I don’t like liars. I believe in the guys with the white hats and I still believe that there are SOME in the govt. roles that are trying to help. I believe in Texas and all that it has done to help and I believe that those in Canada are also doing what they can.

    I think everyone deserves to tell their story but if they are going to call it a biography they best tell the truth and use their real names.

    There have been many many stories about real people and the ugliness that has surfaced from “adults making adult choices” while ignoring the safety and well being of their children.

    I’ll quit asking questions when someone with a white hat tells me it is done. Not just anyone. They’ll know. And more importantly I’ll know. 🙂 My Rifle, My Pony and me

  61. I have a hard time believing Warren will hire Harvey the Rabbi…..Reformed or Orthodox, he must have a legal mind.

  62. Oooppsie, you wrote Rabbit, didn’t you, well that’s quite different…..if he’s a jewish rabbit wouldn’t his first name be Herbie?

  63. Not trying to scare anyone with the My Rifle pony and me song. I don’t have a pony. I don’t have a rifle. And I promise not to sing. But this explains it a little better. this and the fact that the song is a good song.

    “My Rifle, My Pony, And Me” is not playing in the background, subtly adding another layer of subtext to the scene. It’s front and center and performed by the actors, with no apparent deeper meaning beyond the pure enjoyment of watching them.

    and further: “When you’ve got some talent, your job is to use it,”

    For me… this is seeing the Texas Rangers , Doran, Deputy George and all the others that have been trying so hard to make things right. Sometimes people just need to see the good guys in the news.

    I don’t care if I see Warren. I don’t even care to see Merril. But it sure is comforting knowing that the good guys are protecting us. All of us.

    There are a lot of loose ends that need to be cleaned up and it isn’t all in Judge Walthers courtroom.

  64. 🙂 CAJim –

    Herbie and Harvey lived next door to each other. Both kicked out of the “club” and are now known to be Jack-Rabbits.

  65. Sisters Mary and Edna Fischer – Erwin’s daughters. They both married Rulon Jeffs on the same day. Lucky them. They were “inherited” by Warren upon Rulon’s death.

    Edna wasn’t “inherited” by Warren. She went to James Rulon Allred first and had 2 children with him. When he was exed she was married to Abram Harker Jeffs. It was her son James Rulon Allred who was the child with Abram when he was stopped and the child wasn’t in a proper child restraint. She was also the subject of one of Abram’s bad acts in that he was having sex with his father’s wife.

  66. Who are the two “brides” sitting on Warren and Rulon’s laps?
    an older anonymous said this on July 8, 2011 at 11:12 AM

    Can you give some time frame for the picture or other identifying information? Where is the picture, do you have a link to it?

  67. Here is the pic in question, on Rulons wiki page

    Basically, you dont need to read the page, the pic says it all:

    “This old fart is a polygamist pedophile”

  68. Warrens Attorneys do seem like Rabbits, hopping about, coming and going.

    They also seem like little fireworks, showing up and getting lit, spouting off, make a little noise, fizzle out and then sit and smolder.


  69. Heard this on the iPod in the gym and thought I’d share.

  70. Yeah, that’s right RICO kinda like Hebrew National Fireworks ‘Sane ‘n’ Safe’ until one gets his fuse lit and sorta sparkles all over themselves.

    Walton, Herbie and Harvey are neighbors that’s great Rabbi Twins, which one is invisible and which one is morally indefensible? Oh wait the ‘Morally Indefensible One’ is Warren, but where doe that scared rabbit live? These bunnies populate like polygynists and I’m not sure which warren they come from or belong to, anymore.

  71. Those lawyers are getting paid for fizzling and smoldering. Can’t really beat that, especially if whoever gets him when he actually goes in front of a jury has to face losing the case. The fizzlers just lose all the notoriety and media face time. Still, it’s all money in the bag.

  72. I found out today that Linda Kelsch is actually the aunt of Vicki and Valerie Kelsh; Linda’s brother is their father. Linda was a Barlow who married a Kelsch. I was told the different spelling of the surname by Vicki and Valerie is to protect the rest of the Kelsch clan. Like removing the “c” really makes any difference!

  73. The photo Stamp linked to on the wiki page is the photo of Rulon with his new sister-sister wives Edna and Mary Fischer. They are sitting on a swing and it was taken on their (as in the 3 of them) wedding day.

    I still don’t know what photo an older anonymous is talking about.

  74. older anonymous is talking about the photo that appears in the video 2 videos up from this post. Warren and Rulon are sitting by each other with matching teen brides in their respective laps.

  75. Walton, your humor is great today! I can’t wait to read about what you said in the SL Tribune in a couple of days. They always seem to be a few steps behind the news on this blog.

    CAJim is quick today also. Rabbits and warrens – funny stuff you two.

  76. Wasn’t the two plural wives with Rulon on his 90th Birthday and they were his celebratory celestial sealmates? I wonder if he even recalled their respective names the next morning?

  77. Thanks Annonymous and just for that I’m going to spell your name correctly, Anonymously, of course. Hippity Hop and so it goes.

  78. There seems to be 2 choices for the double marriage.

    Warren married Vicki Lynn Nielsen on the same day that Rulon married Eliza Marjean Steed.

    Warren married Jennifer Steed on the same day Rulon married WinnieKloe Steed.

    Not knowing any of the girls involved and what they look like, I’d lean toward the Jennifer/WinnieKloe for the reason that by the time of the marriage WinnieKloe’s father Thomas had been kicked out and her mother had been married to Jennifer’s father. Of course, later when Joseph was kicked out, both mother’s were reassigned to F. Merril. Not sure who both are assigned to now that F. Merril isn’t among the faithful.

  79. While the 90th birthday story is a good one, it isn’t truthful. He was born in December and the double wedding with the Fischer girls was in October and he was 84, not 90.

  80. Thanks to whichever Anon posted the link to the HDNet story. I’ve still got to find someplace to be able to watch it. It airs on July 12.

  81. Thanks Anon @ 6:35 PM. I understand now. I had not watched that video. When will that show air?

    We need someone like Becky Musser to ID those 2 brides, Becky would know who they are, as Rulon’s lap dancer would have been one of her sister wives.

  82. At least those 2 brides were past puberty!

  83. I can’t wait to hear Elizabeth Smart’s take on national network TV (ABC) when Warren’s trial begins. Elizabeth should be able to add a lot of commentary regarding little girls being raped by polygamists.

  84. PT, oh he was a mere 84 yeaqrs old, somehow the thought still makes me sick to my stomach.

  85. Looks to be an appearance from mid-September to early October, later this year, of author Sam Brower to discuss his new book “Prophet’s Prey” based upon a personal journal written by Warren S. Jeffs and Sam’s own seven year investigation into the FLDS Church and their notoriety spotlight at the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, Texas on ‘’ with Doris Hanson. I will post the show date once it’s scheduled.

  86. While the 90th birthday story is a good one, it isn’t truthful. He was born in December and the double wedding with the Fischer girls was in October and he was 84, not 90.

    Proud Texan said this on July 8, 2011 at 7:14 PM

    Thanks PT, I feel so much better knowing that these 2 young ladies (who were in their young 20’s as I was told by someone who personally knows them) got to marry a man who was only 84 instead of 90 years old.

    I can certainly sleep better tonight knowing that there was only a 60 year age difference instead of a 65 year age difference. A 65 year age difference would be so yucky!

  87. CAJim, there was a bride (or maybe 2) “given” to Rulon Jeffs as a birthday present. I will have to find the name(s) and the date and post them later.

  88. Anonymous, the lovely ‘Hallmark’ photo of the Fischer girls with ‘One Man Rulon’ was I thought his 90th but I think Warren’s dictations stated that Rulon married some one or two on his 90th B-day, as well. I wince at the thought of reading or listening to anymore of Warrens records, it’s really depressing stuff to see some prophetic leader so self-absorbed in a meglo-maniacal thought pattern.

  89. Information below from:

    “Prophet’s Prey: My Seven-Year Investigation into Warren Jeffs and the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints.
    by Sam Brower , Jon Krakauer (Introduction)
    Overview”A remarkable man on many levels, Sam Brower is the real deal. Readers are apt to find his firsthand account of bringing Warren Jeffs to justice both extremely disturbing and absolutely riveting.”-Jon Krakauer, from the foreword
    From the private investigator who cracked open the case that led to the arrest of Warren Jeffs, the maniacal prophet of the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), comes the page-turning, horrifying story of how a rogue sect used sex, money, and power disguised under a façade of religion to further criminal activities and a madman’s vision.
    Despite considerable press coverage and a lengthy trial, the full story has remained largely untold. Only one man can reveal the whole, astounding truth: Sam Brower, the private investigator who devoted years of his life to breaking open the secret practices of the FLDS and bringing Warren Jeffs and his inner circle to justice. In Prophet’s Prey, Brower implicates Jeffs in his own words, bringing to light the contents of Jeffs’s personal priesthood journal, discovered in a hidden underground vault, and revealing to readers the shocking inside world of FLDS members, whose trust he earned and who showed him the staggering truth of their lives.
    Prophet’s Prey offers the gripping, behind-the-scenes account of a bizarre world from the only man who knows the full story. “

    Will have to see if I still have a B&N coupon around here.

  90. There is an interview with Sam Brower and the transcripts of the interview here:

  91. Hey you guys…. Lindsay Whitehurst opened up the Polygamy blog.


    I posted a link over there to some of her other stories. I’ve been reading some of her other work for some time. And she really has written some good stories.

    IF there really is a trial that takes place the more media there the better it is for everyone.

  92. Yes, Walton, I highly agree that the more news media coverage, the better. But only if Lindsay Whitehurst is going to report the story as a true reporter without the Brooke Adams “spin” on it.

  93. I like Sam Brower.

    Is that really Sam in that video? Is he done investigating stuff?

    I’ve been posting about this story since 2004 and during this whole time, I’ve never seen Sam stretch the truth, lie or be mean to anyone.

    I think his book would be a good one. jmo

    Do you guys know if Sams book or the book Answer them Nothing are available on line? I read Carolines last book on line because I could increase the size of the print.

    I saw the trailer for the HD net story. I checked I don’t have HD net. Did you guys notice on their facebook page it has this description: HDNet ( is the independent network with unique and thought-provoking content that appeals to men of all ages and is delivered in true high definition.

    I am not a man. I am a woman. And no I won’t break out in the Helen Reddy song I am woman. I’ll just sing it in my head. 🙂

  94. Yes, Walton, I highly agree that the more news media coverage, the better. But only if Lindsay Whitehurst is going to report the story as a true reporter without the Brooke Adams “spin” on it.

    Anonymous said this on July 9, 2011 at 2:42 AM

    All I can say is that there is so MUCH more to the story/stories than what has been printed. I also know that there are many different groups out there that want to see the FLDS gone for different reasons.

    I could never begin to understand any of this with out everyones reporting or the sharing of how they see things. But the many clues within each story tell a much much bigger story.

    Warren Jeffs has only been a part of the story imo. I won’t deny that I felt the wind go out of my sails when I saw that the book Brooke was writing has something to do with the Dargers. I guess I was hoping for non fiction.

    I feel like a middle child so to speak. I don’t like Warren. I don’t like what Warren has done. I don’t like what many of those in the group have done. But I also don’t like what some of the others have done in other groups and people are ignoring the “other groups”. But I also know that there are some people who belonged to the FLDS and some of them have family members that post here. Some of who I have a lot of respect.

    I’ve read the family history of some of who practice Polygamy. And I tell you what…those women had it tough. Caught up in the greatest scam ever thinking they had to be married to a man in order to get to Heaven. And many of the “leaders” continued and continue the same BS.

    Look at the history of John Christensen Larsen and his wives. Tell me if his wives stories aren’t the ones we should be looking at to learn a lesson. ( I broughtt his name up because he has already been mentioned publicly in the media- I just went further into the story)

    So for every “Sister Wife feel good story” that they want to print- I can find a hundred times over the “reality” of the harms Polygamy does as a whole.

    Polygamy has never been about 2 adults making adult choices. The few that are yipping for decriminalization are a selfish bunch.

    Marriage should = one spouse.

  95. Walton,
    you made me think about journalism….

    here is an immediate, not well thought out idea, we have a problem in the media with the idea of “fair and balanced” – that there should always be two sides to a story to be balanced….I think that the role of journalism should be to tell a story no matter where it goes. I think that Brooke Adams started the polygamy beat with the idea of a neighborhood reporter, the block party is on such and such a day etc. Then when it started (should have been from the beginning) turning into news she wanted to keep on being the “fair and balanced” reporter and since the story is so terribly horrrible the only way to be “fair” is to bend and bend and bend the other way… Notice she got out at the same time that all the other apologists started dropping – hard to keep on bending…

  96. I was going to post over on the SLT something to the effect that why even bother to respond to Bill, he is doing a great job all on his own to warn people away from the pro-polygamy group, but then I realized that yes he is doing a great job all on his own so let him keep on going…..

  97. My take on Brooke Adams is that in order to have any access to the FLDS Church she had a 60/40 relationship, so “fair and balanced’ reporting was never her suit from the outset. Some of her finding middlegound choices left her out in ‘No Man’s Land’. Trent Nelson tried to explain and say that she was a good journalist but there was always this leaning attitude that neither she or Trent seemed cognizant that existed. The story she did on the FLDS retirees in Colorado tried to show some sweet and idylllic treatment of the elderly FLDS matriarchs but it didn’t seem to show more than a sanitized viewpoint that look only at a few pre-selected topics. We weren’t told who the grammas had married or were reassigned, the remoteness/isolation away from the main FLDS Church seemed odd and the complaints of the residents was nill, so somehow not normal. Brooke Adams was thrilled to access the facility and thought the storyline was a ‘big scoop’ but it read a little like ‘Annie on Sunny Brook(e) Farm’, with preagreed to blinders kept in place. It ended up being a real eye-opener to me that Brooke was fundamentally flawed and a willing instrument to slant the viewpoint favorably toward the FLDS Church. I was left wondering if these FLDS mariarchs had survived through all of these years why was it that they seemed to need the church’s charity to exist and where were the staunch plural wives, none were even mentioned that I recall.

  98. Cajim

    True, that nasty Warren shoved off the Grandma’s to CO and kept them from their grandchildren

    And Brooke painted such a nice rosy picture of it. GAHH!!!

  99. Cajim-

    When you say that I “tried to explain”, what exactly are you referencing?

  100. Well, let’s see if I can explain it for you. Do you know how the leaning tower of Pisa has a tilt on it that is notceable, unless it is aligned where it is tilting right away/toward you? Then it’s lean is not so pronounced or noticeable. You feel I think based upon comments you’ve written, and you can certainly speak for yourself , that Brooke was more impartial or balanced but my view is that your perspective was on the aligned upon the away/toward perspective. More broadly, I think you saw her as being more balanced or inpartial than I ever did. Fair?

    You are a good photo journalist and I think you’re talented. My view may change based upon your posting here though, Hee,hee!

  101. I appreciated Brooke’s blog and her efforts to not generalize about the FLDS and insult a whole group of people because of a one man rule train wreck.

    Its seems so hard for those of us outside the Mormon world who call ourselves Christians to remember to treat others with respect and the way we would want to be treated if we had been born into such a group.

  102. This article says that Colorado City has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Mohave county. I think that is because there are so many children and the working-age numbers are skewed compared to the population of the community.

    Unemployment hits some parts of county harder than others

  103. CAJim-

    Here’s what you said:

    “Trent Nelson tried to explain and say that she was a good journalist but there was always this leaning attitude that neither she or Trent seemed cognizant that existed”

    I think I figured out my own question. Tell me if this is right…

    You are attributing this to me:

    “Trent Nelson tried to explain and say that she was a good journalist”

    and then this is you speaking, not me:

    “but there was always this leaning attitude that neither she or Trent seemed cognizant that existed”

    Maybe everyone else read it the right way the first time.


  104. Anonymous, the lovely ‘Hallmark’ photo of the Fischer girls with ‘One Man Rulon’ was I thought his 90th but I think Warren’s dictations stated that Rulon married some one or two on his 90th B-day, as well. I wince at the thought of reading or listening to anymore of Warrens records, it’s really depressing stuff to see some prophetic leader so self-absorbed in a meglo-maniacal thought pattern.

    CAJim said this on July 9, 2011 at 1:54 AM

    Rulon Jeffs married Gladys Elaine Jessop on his 90th birthday. She would be Edson Porter Jessop Jr and Elaine Johnson’s 16 year old daughter.

  105. Hey Trent, are you coming to Texas for the trial?

  106. Brent Hunsaker is such a great reporter. He sure sees right through the FLDS’ BS.

    Warren Jeffs changes attorneys / What’s he up to?


  108. Brent Hunsaker and his news crew were the ones, along with Sam Brower that were accused of trespassing on Williie R. Jessops ranchland back in 2009 but the case got dismissed. Then last week Sam Brower had a cross-suit back trying to recover his costs, he was awarded $15,000 judgment and Willie was issued a bench warrant for a ‘Failure to Appear’.

  109. Actually, CAJim, you left out an important step in the judicial process. Sam Brower had previously won his lawsuit against Willie the Thug prior to the June 27th court hearing. When Sam sued Willie the Thug to recover his costs, neither Willie the Thug nor his POS attorney, Rodney Parker, bothered to show up, so Sam won the lawsuit by default.

    The June 27th hearing was an Order to Show Cause hearing where Willie the Thug was supposed to tell the court how he was going to pay Sam the almost $16,000 judgement Sam had won to reimburse him for Willie the Thug’s frivolous TRO case.

    Again, Willie the Thug was a no-show so that is when the $2000 cash-only-bail bench warrant was issued.

    During the original November 2009 Temporary Restraining Order court hearing that caused Sam to incur nearly $16,000 in court costs, lawyer fees and witness fees, Willie the Thug’s own father – who was Willie the Thug’s sole witness – said that Sam had not come onto Willie the Thug’s ranch property. That is when Judge Beacham threw out the case because there was no evidence for any of Willie the Thug’s claims.

    Willie the Thug’s father, Glade, is an honorable man.

    Anybody seen Willie the Thug around lately? He is probably a wanted man by now. Where is Dog the Bounty Hunter when you really need him?

  110. Anonymous thanks for the greater details, it’s been a couple of years and the memory fades a little. Bill ‘WilliesFiend’ Medvecky is trying to trash Brent Hunsacker’s current coverage of Warren Jeffs lawyer replacement , on the SLTRIB, but I say he’s just really steamed about this judgment award and the bench warrant.

  111. Are lawyers not taught in Law 101 that you never allow a default judgement against your client?? Maybe Parker is backing away from the USS FLDS which is taking on water.

  112. Trent

    Appreciate your input. Your last post was a little convoluted, but the way I see it, is that Brooke took many opportunities to COVER UP and minimize the crimes and adventures of the flds.

    Not always the case, of course, and it lost her support on the flds side, like bill medslacking and probably her inside sources like Willie.

    She couldnt NOT report on certain facts and convictions as they came to justice.

    The threat to sue the nonprofit HOPE org for posting trib articles, while these same articles stand elsewhere unhindered, showed a bias and tact that WAS NOT fair and balanced, but rather politically motivated.

    The leaders of the flds probably hate the HOPE org because they have performed on a shoestring much more to helping victims than the “Safety Trap” ever will.

    That said, I dont hold animosity to Brooke, and certainly not you, Manny or any other staff at the Trib. I understand your jobs, though frustrated at times on what comes out in print, as in the way its worded.

    As a last note, Brookes latest adventure in participating in a pro-polygamy book shows her hand, so the guessing game is finally over.

    As always, I enjoy your input. Photos are awesome, only thing I can say, is the Texas shots of current events are much more relevant than these old file photos you took of him dressed up in civies with a dry look hairdo.

    If the article is about a hearing with him in prison clothes, use a prison clothes file photo. Perhaps thats the editors call, I know, and its hard for them to keep facts straight. he he

  113. Only in Utah does a news story about illegal immigration and undocumented workers turn into a commercial for how wonderful the Centennial Park polygamous group is.

    This Eli Cawley is probably the son of Claude Cawley who was on the Priesthood Council for the CP group.

    After the 1986 split with the FLDS, the Centennial Park group first started out with Marion Hammon as the head dude of the Priesthood Council. Alma Timpson was on it, as was Frank Naylor (who later broke away and started his own group of polyg’s in Salt Lake City.)

    After Marion Hammon died, Alma Timpson became the head CP dude. He ordained his son, John Timpson, and his step-son, Claude Cawley, to the Priesthood Council. Both of these men were sons of Alma (Dell) Timpson’s wife, Guenivere Timpson.

    A year later, Alma Timpson called 4 more men to join his Priesthood Council – Clayne Wayman, Jed Hammon (Marion Hammon’s son), Joe Knudson (the guy who owns the mansion where the PrimeTime TV program was filmed a few years ago) and Lorin Zitting.

    After Alma Timpson died, the head dude position was supposed to go back to the Hammons, but that didn’t happen. Today, John Timpson and Jed Hammon run Centennial Park group as co-head dudes.

    There is your Centennial Park history lesson for today. Read the Salt Lake Tribune below –

    Polygamous upbringing influenced Utah Minuteman

  114. Today, the SLTrib has an article on the Utah Minuteman Project and it’s duly elected Director Eli Cawley. President Cawley is a Colorado City resident and from the polygamous community. For him to be the stopping illegal border crossing simply ignores over a century of polygny activity across both the Mexican and Canadian borders. Is this supposed to be the guy Utahans trust to stop border infractions? Does he not know that the Royal Canadian Mounties are investigasting sex trafficking of both American and Canadian ‘Child Brides’ illegal border crossings? Isn’t this like appointing the fox to guard the hen house?

  115. Ironically, these polygamists are complaining about illegal workers from Mexico, while it has been documented, polygamists have found refuge in Mexico and the polygamists have been found to do illegal work HERE

    as in no licenses, underage labor, etc.

  116. CAJim, can you please provide the link to the SL Trib where Bile is trashing Brent Hunsaker? I need a good laugh this morning. Thanks in advance.

  117. Oh and Mitt Romneys ancestors were polygamists who moved to Mexico.

    His father returned, and I’m not sure he was ever actually made legal.

    Mitt is a citizen, though, and I dont hold the family history against him. But if his family had stayed, Mitt would be a Mexican.

  118. There are 33 pages and Bill is in most of them. Some of his nastiest posts have been deleted, but many surprisingly have been left standing.

    Evidently the moderator horse has left the barn.

  119. Chemist, i believe that Attorney Rod Parker is still battling to overturn Judge Lindberg’s ruling disallowing his representation of the UEP Trust. He, also, has never turned over his UEP Trust records as ordered to do so by her Court. I still hold Rod Parker to account for his attendance at the YFZ Ranch Press Conference, following the sherff/ranger’s incursion, when he denied that any ‘Child Bride’ marriages and births had transpired upon the ranch. His duplicity and continued refusal to observe the Court’s order are simply beyond the pale, IMO.

  120. From the SL Trib article on Eli Cawley and the Minuteman Project –

    “While members of Cawley’s family continue to practice polygamy, St. George resident Georginia Coon of Raz-PAC — a Latino political action committee in Utah — rebuts Cawley’s claim polygamists have First Amendment protections that undocumented immigrants do not.

    “Let’s not use the name of religion to commit crime,” Coon said. “Polygamy is not a religion.”

    You go Georginia!

  121. Mitt Rimney’s father was about 5 years old when the family left Mexico to come to the states. Mitt’s grandfather was a polygamist.

  122. Which is why I am not holding that against Mitt. Others may. I have communicated with lots of folks who have left a polygamy background – imagine this they can be great people.

    Mitt has become a self made man, and not making this a political ad I like him a lot. That said, I’m not an expert on all details, its said Obamacare was modeled after what Mitt did in MA.

    I consider it a compliment to Mitt that Obama would follow him on his one half- accomplishment in his two and a half years in office. But that said I cant comment on the issue in MA as I havent studied it.

  123. RICO, Live and let live for reformed polygynists is a sound policy. Mitt Romney was involved with exuming his ancestors, namely Parley Pratt, remains from Arkansas and reinter the remains in Utah. The exumation was unsuccessful due to a lack of remains. Parley Pratt’s demise raises an old argument over martyrdom/revenge killing that many say triggered the Mountain Meadow Massacre. The facts are that his 12th wife, namely Eleanor McClean was still legally married to Hector Mcclean, celestial sealing took place in San Francisco in 1855. Hector Mcclean tracked Parley Pratt down and killed him near the Arkansas/Texas border region, local officials released Hector from any criminal charges. My take is that Hector took the law into his own hands and was wrong but Pratt had ‘dirty hands’ in this matter.

  124. Cajim

    While I dont recall Mitt making that attempt, not did I know his ancestor was Parley, the rest of the story I am quite familiar with.

    As a side note, Parley met this woman on one of his “Missions” and this under Brigham Young, perhaps one of the reasons BY was nicknamed “Bringem Young”.

    Pratt was held, and upon his release followed by Hector, where he met his demise.

    No one had the inspiration at the time to prosecute Hector. Guess at the time wife thieves ranked right up there with horse thieves.

  125. I agree it was the ‘tenor and time’ in a frontier environment. As I recall there was one or more children involved and the removal of the child/children seemed to play a main cause. Hector was no saint and left San Francisco bragging about preserving his honor, even though he is said to have been domestically abusive and a heavy drinker. The Mountain Meadow wagon party left the Arkansas area around the time of Pratt’s death, headed for California via Southern Utah.

  126. True, Hector was no saint, but the history reveals that the LDS werent welcome by many to invent a new brand of culture or social mores during this time.

    Painting Hector as evil might have made them feel good and justified, his wife was free to get a divorce and move on her merry way.

    This business of absconding his children under false pretenses and moving out of state didnt sit well with anyone but Brigham and Parley.

    Not necessarily a good way to promote missionary trips in new areas.

    I dont think someone mistreating their horse was a good excuse to steal em back then either.

  127. After some research, the double wedding shown at 2:03 in the HDNet World Report video appears to be Rulon marrying WinnieKloe Steed and Warren marrying Jennifer Steed. This was in October before Rulon turned 90 in December. Interestingly, Warren married WinnieKloe after Rulon died. She came up during Abram Jeffs trial because Abram was ordered to take her off the ranch to “repent from afar”. It was mentioned as 1 of Abram’s bad acts. He apparently took her to Amarillo and dumped her.

  128. Winnie (Warren) gets through with them he just litters the highway, winnie ‘handled’ them he sends them to worship from afar,
    winnie can’t control them they go to a ‘Safe House’ but when he gets arrested the whinnying stops and the philles are safe for awhile.

  129. Rulon’s last few wives were very young. I think he must have been influenced by Warren. Of his last 8 wives, 4 were 16, 1 was 17, 2 were 18 and one was a re-tred. The very last wife was Mary Anne Jessop, daughter of Frank Russell and Mary Anne Fischer. She was 16. MaryAnne was married to Isaac after Rulon died. She has interesting connections.

    One of her sisters, Suzanne was the wife who the FLDS used to try to take Jason Williams sons away from him. They lost and Suzanne and her 2nd husband are now out.

    Another married a Kapcsos, so she has Canadian ties.

    Janetta was a wife that Warren couldn’t tame. She’s out now.

    There were 4 boys in the family. I think all are out, but 1 might still be in.

    Sisters Velvet and Kathryn were married to Rulon in a double ceremony that Jason talks about in his book. Both were later married to Warren.

    It’s just amazing how Warren can split a family so many ways.

  130. Scientist trying to find if Joseph Smith had any children by his polygamous wives.

    So far he hasn’t found any, but will keep searching.

  131. Rulon’s last few wives were very young. I think he must have been influenced by Warren. Of his last 8 wives, 4 were 16, 1 was 17, 2 were 18 and one was a re-tred.

    That really adds to the YUCK factor. Rulon Jeffs was in his late 80’s to 90’s. He is marrying 4 x 16; 1 x 17; and 2 x 18 year old teenagers; plus the re-tred.

    Gag me with a spoon!

  132. Scientist trying to find if Joseph Smith had any children by his polygamous wives.

    So far he hasn’t found any, but will keep searching.

    A Texan said this on July 10, 2011 at 8:25 PM

    Gee, if the LDS church-owned Deseret News is reporting this, then I highly doubt that any of the illegitimate children sired by Joseph Smith will EVER be found.

    My husband was raised Mormon and he swears that Joseph Smith NEVER had any polygamous wives; it was solely Bringhem Young who did that. Yeah, right honey.

  133. Interesting to me is when Joseph Smith III came to Utah as part of a RLDS missionary effort and his interviews, speechs and perspectives on Brigham Young are fascinating, he was Emma’s son that she claimed held his fathers prophetic blessing. His bloodline would be interesting to trace and he was an avowed monogamous.

  134. DNA

  135. Of interest reviews of Fawn Brodie’s books on Joseph Smith and Thomas Jefferson.

  136. The Dizzy News article was a hit piece on Fawn Brodies book.

    Guess more people are reading it and coming to class with questions.

    Answer? Find a DNA guy to try to dispel the book.

    Its not a good tact, DNA hasnt worked in their favor in the past.

  137. My take on Rulon’s old age marriages was that Warren was “laying away” brides for himself for take over on Rulon’s death

  138. My thoughts exactly HHG.

  139. So what’s the bottomline once the Priesthood men have been incarcerated? Polygyny is going to be practiced or changed as they practice it? The ‘Lands of Refuge’ will be closed down or opened to outside contact? Warren S. Jeffs receives a lifetime sentence then there’ll be a manifesto? Marrying ‘Child Brides’ will truly end or just be more sequestered behind the locked gate and fences? The Canadian reference case and RCMP investigations into sex trafficking will spotlight the current conditions and treatments but then the US is following and not leading.

  140. I did a google map snoop on YFZ ranch and what I see really confuses me.

    I am 100% positive that there are things going on that are NOT being talked about in ANY newspaper.

    I want to know.

    Services being held in the Temple?

    Who is the head honcho?

    Where does Merril really hang his hat?

    Where is Willie?

    Is the property tax exempt?

    Who are the 3 guys that wanted to lay claim on the UEP?

    Is anyone saving a little something for Ruth?

    If they are going to play games with Warrens trial someone has to offer up something on all the other stuff.

    Where are the children? Where are the old grandmas?

    Where is that nice guy from Colorado City? The one who did a report with Mike Watkiss.

    Who is farming the Berry knoll?

  141. Issac Wyler. The happier one. Where is he? He doesn’t even have to tell any secrets he can just let everyone know how he is doing etc.

    Why doesn’t anyone ever follow up on these stories?


    Fire Department scandal

    sister wives Bull s

    fake license plates


    Gary Engels

    Texas team

    Child Protection- Where are the Children and what is CPS doing to make sure the kids are ok and not living with people in leadership roles that think it’s ok to marry their children off to old men.

    Someone can give us a little something. something real.

  142. OK let me share some of what was debated when Emma’s sons came West into the Salt Lake valley, known as ‘Josephites’ or Re-organized LDS or RLDS. RLDS missionaries first arrived in Utah in July, 1863 represented by EC Briggs and Alex McCord. Emma’s second and third sons, William A. and Bavid Hyrum Smith, visited these missionaries and debated the established the ‘Brighamites’ or Latter Day Saints or LDS. Interesting fact is that today the LDS has changed over time and is more aligned with the unchanged RLDS tenets. Brigham Young was too shrewd to directly debate/confront these “Smith Boys” so Hyrum Smith’s(Joseph, Jr.’s brother) son, namely Joseph F. Smith was the LDS apologist.

    The gulf of disagreements was most importantly over polygamy, LDS endorsed it as a practice and RLDS denied its practice, today both more closely agree. Then there were debates over Brigham Young’s teachings over blood-atonement, incest, Adam-worship and ‘Danites’.

    Firstly, the RLDS rejected the formation of a Theocracy in the Deseret, they held with ‘honoring the ‘Gentile’ Law(US Constitution). The RLDS followed the revised, by Joseph Smith, Jr., New Testament edition and not the King James version.
    The Smith Boys attacked/rejected polygamy, human sacrafice, blood-atonement, incest, Adam being God and the claim that Utah was the New Zion or the “Gathering” place and these teaching erroes were of the Devil and ‘not the true Gospel’. The Smith Boys and RLDS failed in their mission to outbrigham Brigham and catured few converts to their faith.

  143. As best as I can answer Walton:

    I don’t think that there are services in the temple. I’m not sure there ever were except for rapes of young wives.

    No one knows who is head honcho at the ranch. According to Sam (Forrest) Steed, he reports to Utah.

    Merril is in Texas by Court Order. Not sure other than that.

    Willie is in Utah/Arizona, Short Creek.

    Some of the property is tax exempt and other isn’t.

    Not sure about 3 guys.

    Not sure about Ruth.

    Warren’s trial is still on as far as I know.

    The children are back at the ranch and no one is watching over them. Some of the grandmas are at the ranch too.

    Not sure what guy your referring to unless it is Isaac. He’s in the Crick as far as I know.

    No clue about BerryKnoll.

  144. Sam Brower is going to collect on his recent Court awarded judgment or Willie R. Jessop is going to the ‘clinker’ on a bench warrant. Something’s gone give on this Court matter and soon, unless Willie has left the country. I predict Willie blinks and Sam has his payday.

  145. The next realignment that seems to be gathering support between LDS faithful is accepting the Prophet Joseph Smith’s changes/revisions to the King James Gospels strnthening ties with the RLDS.

  146. Polygamist Brian David Mitchell not appealing conviction:

    Well it’s the end of a decade long process where IMO the Utah state Courts failed to deal with this polygamy related case as it seems they have with most other polygamy cases. It took the federal courts to deal with Mitchell and the Texas courts to deal with Warren Jeffs & company.

    Anyone have a guess which federal prison he ends up at?

  147. Terre Haute, IN??

  148. Regarding Joseph Smith fathering children with his extra wives, there is credible evidence that he fathered Josephine Rosetta Lyon with Sylvia Porter Sessions. There was some attempt at DNA testing but I don’t think it was ever fully resolved.

  149. Thanks Proud Texan

    Here is the latest Safety Net Meeting. I got the link from Paul Murphy’s twitter page.

    This is probably the best meeting that I’ve seen them air.

  150. Terre Haute, IN??
    chemist said this on July 11, 2011 at 3:03 PM

    Leavenworth or supermax in Colorado., my guess.

  151. CAJim- If you look at the Safety Net Meetings and with the Utah Attorney Generals office alligning with Safety Net/ Sister Wives/Dargers etc. it appears that they are pushing tor decriminalization. Which is crazy imo.

    All the stuff they found with the Canadian trials proves that many of the issues didn’t start with Warren. The issues became worse with Warren in charge but they didn’t start there. jmo

  152. Walton, go view “” featuring Rebecca Kimbel who left the AUB Church sect for the topic of legalization. I think slavery or revoking a womens right to vote are probably good ideas for some fundamentalists but it only reflects the depths of their”Keep Sweet” mentalities than any political realities. Fantasyland is just one section within Disneyland, I personally enjoy Tomorrowland, much more.

  153. Rebecca Kimbel on her life in and exit from the AUB polygamy group>

  154. As I recall the DNA adventure for extra JS kin is geared toward male to male DNA trails, they havent explored the female line yet and they were complaining that was less reliable.

    Not a scientist, so I dont know.

  155. Just for future reference, ‘” can be clicked-on from our right column Blogroll.

  156. A women receiving the priesthood in the Community of Christ.

  157. This documentary starts off with an interview of a female RLDS elder. She pulls no punches with how she feels about the LDS church, claiming those who practiced polygamy in the early days “came from pagan backgrounds.” Ouch.

  158. Anon, the links didn’t take.

  159. They’re working fine for me. There’s always the ol’ “copy and paste” into your browser if they’re not working for you. good luck.

  160. The links worked for me. I had seen the videos Many wives before. But watched them all again. Thanks for sharing. I will check out the What love is this site some more.

    I wish I could do something.

    Yeehaa brought that video over that the one kid had made. I couldn’t help but think of Parley Jeffs Dutson. I just think that if there would have been something in place Parley wouldn’t have chosen to do some of the things that he did.

    I just don’t want there to be any more people hurt. The kids have it tough because of their age. The old have it tough because of their age. Everyone has it tough because of the “hold” that they have on them here on this earth and in their own Heavens.

    I just know if they could see the Brendas and the Renas and the many others and the flowers that they carry on a regular basis that it would just have to have a positive effect on them.

    Despite my growl and bite with WildBill, I am actually a nice person. I think if most of these people met me, I think they would like me. Well, maybe not Mary B.

    I think each group should cough over $100 and one member from each group should gather up some of their young and plan on a Big OL’ pot luck at one of the Parks. the Catholics put on a good feed. The Lutherans have always had the best ice cream socials. The Natives can put on a Pow Wow like no other. Everyone can do a little something.

    It doesn’ t have to be a religious group. Just people helping people. If they won’t go outside. Bring the outside in.

    I just wish I lived closer.

  161. So get this, Detoto says she wasn’t hired to represent Jeffs at trial, only for relitigating the Motion for Recusal. From the Salt Lake Tribune:

    But Detoto said Monday she had not been hired to defend the FLDS leader at trial.

    “Right now, my goals, and what I was hired to do, is prepare, file and litigate the motion for rehearing on the recusal,” she said.

  162. Here’s the SL Tribs take on the revolving door lawyers for Warren Jeffs;

    Ole Warren must be trying to slow down to the train wreck heading his way, but it’s going to crash down on him, sooner or later!


    Link to the story.

  164. And speaking of the SL Trib here’s an opinion piece on polygamist Mitchell’s one way ticket to the big house:

  165. Oh good grief

  166. Kody Brown and family are going to challenge the anti-polygamy law of Utah.

  167. Wonder if the State of Utah will prosecute the Browns for bankruptcy fraud or abuse of the food stamp system ?

    Jordanian group to promote polygamy.

  169. Lindsay Whitehurst is going to Texas for the trial. 🙂

    So…. this is really going to happen. wow

    Has anyone talked to Ben Winslow? Mike Watkiss? Brent? Is Trent going?

    These guys have been following the stories for a long time. I know Randy and Kathy will be there. Matthew Waller. Concho Valley.

    Just about every body will be there. I wish I could be. I hope someone does a group shot of all those covering the story. Post card for Walton.

    I’ll email some of these guys. Call some of them. And I’ll write to some more.

    I don’t care if I see Warren. But I sure want to know what those lawyers are saying. and …Judge Walther. Photos of those coming and going. A sketch artist with Merill dozing. Willie with his hands to his head. Something. Everything.

    And I want to see the Texas Rangers. And the other LE involved. And I want to know what Willie says. And what Wally says back in Utah. And what plans Rod Parker has for his involvement with the UEP/Warren Jeffs/FLDS etc.

    Finally. one step closer to the Feds. Woohoo


  170. Kody Brown and family are going to challenge the anti-polygamy law of Utah.

    Proud Texan said this on July 11, 2011 at 9:37 PM

    If this really does happen they couldn’t finish this whole thing without bringing in all the facts and research that Canada has done.

    The state of Utah and the Federal Govt. can’t ignore the findings. Can’t even really argue the findings either. It is right there.

    No telling when they would hear the case. Look how long the UEP thing has been going on.

  171. Walton, I am on pins and needles as you all probably know. I want to share your excitement, but I can’t let myself think this trial is a go. I utterly can’t wait to be wrong! Especially with Walther already under scrutiny with the search warrant issue, I think there’s gonna be a last-minute continuance. I know I shouldn’t have said that aloud… sprinkling over left shoulder….

    PT, I may just cut out of here if it’s a go. There was something about scraps at a steakhouse….

  172. Third Cousin, your on pins and needles? Is it because they’ve cancelled so many times?

    The search warrant really shouldn’t be a problem. Some say it should be a problem. But from get go there was no other choice.

    she had to issue a search warrant. Not sure if you were here at the start but there really was no other choice. In order to find Sara they had to look every where. Once they saw what they saw they had to act accordingly and gather the evidence.

    And the man that she mentioned ( Barlow) was suppose to be on a sex registry but never was. I kept checking after he had gone to court. Wasn’t listed. There was no telling where he really was. He called into his probation officer by cell phone. Fact.

    And Lindsay has never said anything about “some” of the other stories. But she is talking this time. And she said she was going. It’s on her blog.
    So it has to be a go.

    If you related to Warren – you can’t pick your relatives. I’ve had some relatives that have been in jail. Never for anything like this but jail none the less. One was a theif. ( He stole because he was lazy) and his son was also in jail because his father showed him how and told him it was ok.)

    And my dad was in jail one time. He had a pet duck and they both got drunk at the local bar. They tossed him and the duck in jail. Someone from the newspaper got wind of it and put it in the local paper.

    Dad carried around that news article all of his life. Tattered and torn he’d pull it out every once in awhile. Best thing that ever happened he said. He quit drinking and wanted better for us kids. He never touched another drop.

  173. And after this many jump starts, Judge Walther isn’t going to put up with any more BS. They’ve made a mockery of the court system. Walther is a no nonsense Judge.

    Look at the Anthony trial. Every day for how many days? Long days at that. Walther has been known to have court late into the night.

    There is another lawyer that she can pick. She can assign a lawyer. and things can move forward. From here to the Feds.

    🙂 Texas Rangers and the guys with the sunglasses. Protecting us all.

    It is time.

    I am almost sure Ben will get to go. If Fox news go the others will follow.

    Yeah, it is time. And… we all will get to follow along.

  174. Did the duck quit drinking?

    Couldn’t resist.

  175. It did. Dad gave him to one of the local schools. And the duck didn’t have any other drinking “buddies”.

    I guess it all started when the bar keep asked dad to stop his singing and to keep his duck quiet. So dad sang louder and so did the duck.

    You are my sunshine can’t be sung by anyone without me thinking of that duck and my dad.

    True story.

    Me-? Never did do any bonding with any ducks. But I sure have had fun talking to cows. 🙂

  176. I figure since Warren fired his attorney at the last hour and hasnt retained new council, a public defender will be appointed.

    No way does Warren have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to Judge Walther and defend himself pro se.

  177. Donald Richter will be on HDNET TV

    Is this the same Richter who had the “Truth will get told OOPS website”?

    Anyway, he was in the bounced bunch this last winter, and he is going to tell his side of the story. Will he bring his duck?

    (thx Walton that was funny!)

  178. kody filed that in federal court in Utah – and I dont think this is such a great legal maneuver, since marriage is a state regulated institution.

    Think they just want to throw it against the wall anyway and see if they can make something stick, or perhaps just a ploy to up their TV ratings.

    Yeah, thats it, free ratings, just hire an attorney and go for it!


    woke up to hearing about the Browns on NPR this morning

  180. Walton, LE isn’t going to pose for a picture, so you’ll have to be without on.

    Stamp, it is Arnold Richter who is on HDNet tonight. Donald is his father.

    The issue of Walther hearing the Suppression even though she’s the one who signed the search warrant has already been debated, hashed, chewed around on and spit out by Judge Hyde. He’s probably growing weary of this as this will be his 4th hearing on the same issue.

  181. 3C, I’ll tell you like I’ve told anyone else who is thinking about coming, don’t do anything until the 25th. If jury selection starts then come on. The actual trial probably won’t start until around Aug 1. After they pick a jury they have to have Warren’s suppression hearing. Before he was dismissed (at least in Warren’s mind) he filed a motion to suppress the search warrant. He’s entitled to that since he wasn’t part of the Consolidated Motion to Suppress filed by all of the others indicted.

    You’re on for scraps if you show up!!!

  182. I think I counted 3 stories about the Browns at the Trib. I also noticed WildBill. It appears he is still in a crappy mood. I am reaching for sunshine. Warrens trial. Texas Rangers. Feds with sunglasses. Justice working.

    One of the posters mentioned ratings boost. I think they are correct.

    Big Love never ever once put real kids in harms way.

    So far the only one that has said anything worthwhile is Marci Hamilton. J. Turly lost any respect I had for him, when I figured out how the “Brown Family” came to be.

    Shurtleff was already on thin ice with me.

    What’s the difference between Jersey Shore and the Brown Family?
    The cast from Jersey Shore have real names. They all love each other. It’s an alternative lifestyle. And they are smart enough not to drag kids into adult situations.

    I hope the Repo Man spends the next 5 years filming in Utah. jmo

  183. Proud Texan- I think that when those cameras start flashing those LE will be seen leading him in/out standing behind Nicholas during the conference etc will be a good photo.

    and the guys with sun glasses will come in at the end of trial and hand Warren and his lawyers another set of papers. The spokesman will stand up in front of camera and list the charges and cart him off to never land.
    At the same time suppenas will be delivered thru out to those that were/are involved. Another spokesman will show up 2 days later and tell us who else got them and trials will start 3 months later.

    Getting all the media crew in one spot (Randy, Kathy, Lindsay, Mike, Brent, Matt, Concho Valley,Ben or the cnn guy) will be a harder postcard photo to manage. But I think someone could work on it. Maybe Robert Kirby. Or the Pilot?

    It will all work. And then…..we can rest.

  184. Walton, I will never forget the dad/duck story. And I too have had enlightening conversations with cattle.

  185. Donald Richter is still in. Arnold Richter will be on HDNet. Donald is Arnold’s father.

  186. I am hoping they have enough evidence in the red caddy to convict without needing any of the YFZ evidence. Then there will be no question on the search warrants.

    I am sure the reason Warren keeps firing lawyers is becuase they keep telling him based on evidence his goose is cooked and he doesn’t like what he hears.

  187. Wonder if the State of Utah will prosecute the Browns for bankruptcy fraud or abuse of the food stamp system ?

    Anonymous said this on July 11, 2011 at 10:57 PM

    Are you sure the state/fed knows what bloggers know? Has anyone told them?

  188. WildBill is just in a mood but it has lasted for three years. He originally came onto the screne to set everone straight about the CPS and the horrors of their ineptness. He didn’t figure on a fanatical ‘EndTime’ sect and ‘Child Bride’ livestock trading from Canada, UEP Trust misappropriations and his big accomplishment has been being in favor of returning children to the scene of the crimes at the YFZ Ranch. His unique crime family loyalty, blind beliefs that are unfounded and criminal rationalizations has exposed the hardened excon viewpoints on Law Enforcement.

  189. I think you’re right Watergirl.

    Walton, there are way more LE in and around the courthouse than those who lead Warren in and out. There will be several who will testify.

    As for the reporters, I doubt very seriously Randy will come. Kathy will, Matt is just across the street, so it’s a given he’ll be there.

    I’m more interested in whether Elissa, Brent Jeffs, other lost boys, etc will attend. Man I wish I could see the witness list. I can only hope that Brent is on it for the Bad Acts portion.

  190. Well, well, well the Salt Lake Tribune blog monitor just expiunged all of WildBills comments from the current Warren Jeffs article on his defense attorney changes. That never happened when Brooke Adams had the ‘Polygamy Page’ so I’m thinking there’s a new Sheriff in town. Oh well, Bill always has his own blogsite but nobody really posts there. I guess the monitors here should be ready for BillM drivebys.

  191. Jim: I also noticed that. Also, the first several pages of the comments on the previous polygamy article have BM’s comments removed.

  192. I think his comment about the Quorum of the 12 Apostles probably tipped his wagon over but the tenor and tone of most of his surly comments are better left unread.

    I can’ wait for Judge Walther’s return and ruling on Jeff Kearney (Jeffs’ attorney)motion for removal.

  193. CAJim, it’s a Motion to Withdraw, not Removal.

  194. Maybe he meant DeToto’s motion.

  195. Thanks, PT, I meant Motion to Withdraw.

    Does anyone know when Judge Walther will return and a ruling will be made?

  196. Why did Donald Richter delete his blog ? Any thoughts ?

  197. I believe Willie Jessop was the owner, and it is likely because of Willie’s “apostacy”.

  198. Warren Jeffs ordered his sheeple off of the internet. Basically, the propaganda campaign and indoctrination attempt of the ‘Gentile’ Press & Public failed miserably and ‘Warrant’ was forced to cut his losses and retreat. The focus today for the FLDS Church and leadership is to explain the Exodus to the ‘Lands of Refuge’ that included only the ‘Templebuilders’ as a more finite elelect and excluded most who had not gotten invites to the Zion Mission. Recently we’ve just heard that ‘Zion’ has been appearing on doorposts and buildings in Short Creek, I think this is a belated and feint hearted attempt to quell some unrest from the sheeple. The UEP Trust lawsuit has sown the seeds of dissension into their ranks and the crisis is being dealt with, by a prophet in jail, from afar. The information amongst the sheeple will be a black curtain while they try to blind the sheeple to what was the true agenda, basically there was going to be some winners but mostly losers after Warren executed his revealed plan and now the Exodus has gone badly awry .

  199. Since Judge Hyde has set a hearing on the Motion for Recusal, I doubt there will be a hearing on the Withdrawal before that.

  200. Has anyone read or physically seen the book “Who Has Apostatized?” by Owen Donald LeBaron (1947)? It’s 48 pages and scarce.

  201. And self-published in Mexico, for obvious reasons.

  202. Hi Folks, trying to make one heck of a family tree of The Browns. I need some help. Robyn Sullivan Brown – also have seen last name Marck- who are her parents, grandparents?
    Meri Barber Brown, can’t find a thing on her maternal grandfather, which would be her mother Bonnie Ahlstom’s father. Her grandmother was listed as Joyce A Adams Osborn Evans; I’m not sure who Bonnie’s father is. Help!
    Please come join our “Sister “Wives’ discussion at
    We need your comments!

  203. 3C, who is Owen’s father?

  204. Ben Winslow tweeted this:

    BenWinslow Ben Winslow
    NEW: Half-brother of Warren Jeffs files lawsuit claiming FLDS leader cast him out, separated him from his family. @fox13now #Utah #polygamy

    Wallace Jeffs says in lawsuit his half-brother Warren once claimed he wasn’t the prophet. Therefore, he committed fraud. @fox13now #Utah


    Wallace wants custody of his kids that he hasn’t been allowed to see since 2004. Says when he was kicked out they were put in the care of Lyle.

  206. Wallace fears his teen daughters are about to be farmed out to old married men for breeding.

  207. All Utah state charges dropped as relates to polygamist Brian David Mitchell, typical of the Utah court systems inability to deal with polygamy related crimes. Utah IMO is unable to deal with it’s polygamy related crime problem, it falls on the federal courts as well as the courts here in Texas to deal the crime problem. One good thing about Warren Jeffs coming to Eldorado, Texas, it placed him under the Texas justice system. That’s right Warren you will join your buddy Mitchell doing life without parole, the only difference that the Texas system is far rougher than the federal. Perhaps ole Warren should pray for a conviction in the federal courts, then he could bunk with Mitchell, wouldn’t they make a lovely couple!

  208. Unfortunately Texas doesn’t have “life without parole” and a “life” sentence will get you out in 35 years with good behavior, so I’m rooting for the 99 year sentence. That will ensure in serves at least 45.5 years before being eligible for parole.

  209. The blog is famous. Screenshots were used on the HDNet program.

  210. BM won’t be happy, WeeWillieThugly was on and confirmed that he didn’t follow the profit anymore.

  211. is there anywhere to watch the HDnet program online?

  212. The lady who interviewed Arnold said it would be posted online. Hopefully it will be soon.

  213. Hey yehaaa – did you know Wallace Jeffs and his kids?

  214. PT, William Farland LeBaron (1884-1968), son of David Tulley Lebaron Jr. They were a branch of the family that went on up to Canada..

  215. Poly, can you send me an email address?

  216. I don’t know Wallace Jeffs or his kids. I only know a few Jeffs. sorry. 😦

  217. It’s OK yehaaa, from what I’ve been able to gather, only knowing a few Jeffs is probably a good thing.

    3C, I didn’t realize any Lebaron’s went to Canada. I thought they were all in Mexico.

  218. Many in Canada. You’ll still see their obits contemporarily.

  219. Let’s see, I wonder if Leslie and Blaine could sue Warren and Lyle too. Maybe through Isaac, Seth and Nephi in for good measure. Maybe we should have all of the “not Merilyn sons” v. “the Merilyn sons”.

    How about mudwrestling in the park at the Crick. Warren will have to designate a representative since I doubt Sheriff Doran will give him a pass to attend.

  220. You might see their obits 3C, but most of those obits don’t make it to Texas.

  221. Definitely not all in Mexico. Many, many in Utah, California, Nevada, Idaho, some went mid-West, New Mexico, Texas.

  222. Admin, can you delete that last post? Sorry. Brain fade plus summer wine….

    Birth Date: 04/29/85
    Address : 385 E JESSOP AVE, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    21:31:48 07/10/11 Carter, Jerran WCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-6A-502 DUI-1st,2nd OFFENSE BM WCJ6 1405.00 1405.00
    41-6A-526 ALCOHOL- OPEN CONTAIN CM WCJ6 100.00 100.00

  224. Look at the amount on this one.

    Birth Date: 10/14/80
    Address : 2620 E 10 N CIR, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    19:30:01 07/10/11 Lee, Julie WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    REVOKED BOND REVOKED BOND 2F 5DIS 10700.00 [No Payments Made]

    Birth Date: 12/29/91
    Address : 160 W CHERRY AVE. P.O. BOX 160, Colorad City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    23:50:00 07/09/11 Cooke, Curtis HILD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    0.00 [No Payments Made]

    Birth Date: 07/05/92
    Address : 865 N CANYON ST, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    02:00:00 07/08/11 Cooke, Curtis COLO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  227. Curtis Cooke better watch out, people will begin to think he’s a real cop if he continues arresting people.

  228. Check out Lindsays blog. one step forward to go 5 steps back concerning Warren

    Utah is the most messed up state I’ve ever seen. I just know there is a landing strip there and all the crazies get off and no body ever comes back to pick them up.

    Not everyone is crazy in the head. but it appears that they sure out number the normal ones. Too bad. Utah really is a beautiful state but it’s sometimes hard to see with all the ugliness that hides behind all the doors.

    They have to have a fake family put on a fake show to make Polygamy look like it is just an alternative lifestyle and everyone should think it is ok because they all love each other and they are consenting adults.

    Messed up. Just plain old messed up. And the rest of the country should change their views/laws/attitudes because they aren’t harming anyone. BS

    I am offended that this show is on and that it is called Sister Wives. Kody Brown is married to one woman. It should be called one legal wife and 3 sleep overs.

    And then…. to top it off the people that should be protecting ALL the people gave them a pass.

    I keep saying. A couple of Texas Rangers in every state would do us all a world of good.

  229. I have a lot of friends who watch Sister Wives who know nothing about Mormon polygamy or it’s history. And they do NOT think this is OK. It’s like some of the other shows on A&E – horders, intervention in drug addiction, the family of 19 (with only one mom), child beauty pagents. It’s all a way for most Americans to watch people who are crazier than they are! If the Browns think this is a positive thing for their lifestyle, they are really missing the point. They are being USED by network TV for a quick fix of entertainment. Look at the comments on most of the blogs that follow it. They are generally not saying “wow, this is a reasonable lifestyle”.


    Looks like the Udashens have said they aren’t going to represent in trial, that they were only hired to argue the Motion to Suppress. They state that Warren is still looking for a new lead attorney. Isn’t it a bit late to be doing that. Trial starts in 12 days.

  231. Cant wait to hear what the exasperated Judge Walther will have to say.

    If she took Warren out to the back 40 and had the Texas Rangers bull whip him, would that be grounds for appeal?

  232. Walton, the Browns live in Las Vegas now in 4 separate large rental houses, no idea who’s paying their rent or utilities or if any of them work for a living.

  233. Warren S. Jeffs is a captured fugitive who is quite simply attempting to evade Justice. “Answer Them Nothing” is not taught in any civics course on citizenship. We’re dealing with a fanatical zealot that is in favor of preserving his home-spun Theocracy and strengthening his “One Man Rule”. Does anyone look upon his newly created enclaves in Eldorado, Pringle and Mancos and not realize that they are gulags for sequestering and indoctrinating his select ‘Zion Mission’ devout truebelievers.If this doesn’t have shades of Reverend Jimmy Jones Peoples Temple and reflect the real ‘Warning to the Nation’ that this crackpot sent to our President and Congressmen, then I’m just a ‘bigot and hatemonger’ that Grandpa BillM calls me. I trust we don’t have to see another Government Congressman assasinated before we form a Federal Task Force or enact the RICO statute.
    Do these fervent fanatics show any remorse, contriteness or change any of their fundamentalist and felonious ways?

  234. Ben Winslow and Lindsay Whitehurst both get a mom hug. Thanks.

    The Browns are living in 4 rental homes that I am sure have something to do with the “Family”. Shown and processed by “FAMILY”.

    J. Turly was there for the Greens. The first lawyer that they had when this all started was a close relation to Mary B. (Very close) I think he also had something to do with signing off on different bankruptcies.

    Do you guys remember when Michael Jackson dangled his kid over the balcony? And remember when Octo mom had made the news big time because someone thought that her kids were being negelected?

    Do you remember who got involved in those cases? Gloria Allred. she contacted social services and it was splashed all over the news. Anyone telling their kids that they should fear the cops and they have to hide and it is all on film…. is a person who has major issues. And most definitly someone who should be looked at imo.

    Look what Balloon boy went thru when his parents pulled the crap that they did.

    There is no reason any of this crap had to happen to any of these kids.

    Selfish greedy people who knowingly put their kids in harms way for any reason probably should be looked at by someone outside of Utahs way of thinking. jmo

  235. CAJim- A lot of people laughed at Warrens warnings. A lot of people also complained when they saw the large amount of LE and the many different groups that were involved.

    They were there for a reason. And justifiably so.

  236. It’s just Walton that these Deseret bee stings at first don’t seem to be all that serious, you know. One bee sting no big deal, three or four more and you’re going to be sore, a dozen or more bee stings and you have to go to the Emergency Room but when 1,000 bee stings and you’re in critical condition and the killer bees are still outside flying around the Deseret.

    Loved your children’s protection perspective as opposed to real television entertainment, seems more serious, exploitive and a threat the way you view it.

  237. As crazy as this sounds.. As important as Warrens trial is in Texas it is what comes out at that trial and the next step or two that is incredibly important.

    As much as we need to see Warren go to trial… We need to see Justice working. Warren is already in safe hands. The courtroom shouldn’t be made a place of mockery. Judges shouldn’t be threatened or called names as Wild Bill has done.

  238. CaJim are you talking real bee stings or the fact that the Kody Brown dramas can be like a bee sting?

    Either way.. most of the “outsider” have taken measures to deal with such issues and follow thru.

  239. CaJim – if you know something I think you should tell Proud Texan and I am hoping that Proud Texan knows who to contact.

    That is one of the things I have hated about this story. No one knows who to contact for help. It scares the hell out of me and there isn’t a thing I can do.

  240. Walton I can state emphatically that Rozita Swinton is not the ‘hoax’ caller that the FLDS, BillM and Hugh ‘Child’McBryde have tried their darndest to accuse. The claim that she was a professional mimic and being used by the Colorado Springs PD and FBI is a gross and unproveable lie. The facts and issues investigated concerning Rozita Swinton did not amount to a charge beyond a mere misdemeanor and that charge has never been brought concerning the supposed ‘hoax’ caller. The real issues are the impregnation, bodus wedlocks and unlicensed ministerial ceremonies conducted at the YFZ Raunch and the subsequent rapes, teen child births and Prophet, Bishops and Priesthood men who willing support and practice these statutory felony offenses.

    My alluding to bee stings is a reference to every lie, legal infraction and overt attempts to mask the real fanatical mindsets and outlaw mentality of a goup of fundamentalist zealots committed to a underworld crime spree that I don’t see ending with another two felony convictions of ‘Child Brides’ by Warren Jeffs, no matter how gross or shocking the details will be proven. Ergo the ‘killer bees are still outside flying around the Deseret’, alludes to the Kingstons, AUB, Centennial Park and remanants fo the FLDS Church.

  241. Walton –
    None of the Browns are currently employed, they claim that they are “living off” Kody’s retirement fund. His “retirement fund” had less than 2000 dollars in it in 2005 when he last filed for bankruptcy with Meri, his legal wife. They are paying 5000 – 6000 dollars in rent per month for the four homes, and it is suspected that TLC is paying the tab.

  242. Sooo many secrets. I will say this. I will defend Rozita Swinton no matter what she did.

    When this all took place and long after – I was still looking for Sara. I have it in my mind that Sara is still out there. Somewhere. I honestly believe that the agencies that were involved did everything that they could to find Sara. and in doing so those that went in saw other things that needed to be acted on.

    It is my opinion that the Child Welfare System should have kept the kids longer. And yes, I know with that opinon I am not popular with many. But it is what I believe and it is how I feel.

    What goes past all the issues you mentioned is the fact that they have been allowed to do the things they have done for so long and so many agencies turned their back on the growing list of victims. Why?

    Can’t get rid of a swarm of bees if the bee keepers keep letting em fly. Arizona Joe has the right idea imo. Not enough jail space tents will work just fine. Can’t make babies if the baby maker is in jail.

    Those in charge didn’t do anything. Made a little noise. But that is it. Why?

    What do you suppose the connection is? We’ve seen religious leaders elsewhere get thrown into the can in less time and for a lot longer.

    What do you suppose is different with this story than the many other nut job stories out there?

    And I am real glad you explained your bee theory in detail to me. you had me really scared.

  243. Anon. the work at home jobs wouldn’t amount to much ( in my book) but I know they have relatives who “work” at home and it is a big big thing in Utah. Make up is a good one. etc.

    Who says they are paying rent? kody? lol They could be living rent free in homes that the AUB or other groups have on the market.

    Build it and they will come.

  244. The owners of the 4 homes are not AUB members – the Browns are renting from people who live out of the area who rent out their retirement or investment properties.

  245. Walton,
    The Browns are living in 4 homes which are rented from non AUB members. The homes are the retirement or investment properties of people who do not live in the area, and are not members of the AUB.
    Nocturnal Anon

  246. These are their houses – note the fees for the rent and the owners

  247. Hey anon. the make up work at home thing was with another family. Not sure if they are related in real life.

    But they are known.

    I bet Anne Wild or Mary B. might know.

    The thing is with digging around with the family members of those on a reality show is that they didn’t ask to be put into the “limelight”. As much as I dislike the Sister Wives show and I really don’t like people that pull scams on others- the innocent family members didn’t pick their relatives.

    Working on The Browns – need Bonnie Ahlstrom’s parents and Robyn’s parents – Thanks!

  249. Nocturnal- do some more digging. But look at the big picture.

    Sometimes those trust homes are linked with other things and other people. But be careful with all this as it could lead into a never ending path of hair color and wishing you had stock in the Motrin co.

    Sometimes things aren’t what they seem.

    And quite honestly I wouldn’t believe a thing that came out of the Browns mouths.

  250. polyissowrong – I know you’ve been asking for info. But I don’t know who you are or your intentions. As far as I know you could be running a page for TLC and I am not real happy with them.

    It isn’t that I want to protect Kody and clan. But I don’t think it’s fair to those that haven’t been on their show or mentioned in other stories.

    I would be just as protective of 3rd Cousin if I really knew who she was in real life.

    It is a safety issue.

    Anyone I’ve talked about has been either mentioned on their show/on their show or connected to this show. Greens/ Browns/Allreds/ Wild/Mary B. etc.

  251. I was listening to the news as I did some errands and there was a story about how the Browns want ‘privacy’ and are going to court to get it. It also said that they are NOT trying to legalize polygamy…..WHAT???? If they want ‘privacy’ just like ‘other American families deserve’, then don’t be on a %$#@ TV show about your illegal way of life!!! They have hired Jonathan Turley [who I respect but, don’t necessarily always agree with], to put forward their case in Federal court. This could be entertaining…I want my privacy…and my TV show [who pays all my bills] as well…Hmmmm.

  252. Walton, I am one of the writers of the blog.
    i am trying to show all the intermarriage by putting together a family tree, which I will share with all of you. A member sent me here- she can vouch that I am safe. I understand your fears-I am scared about what I am doing, but, someone has been leading to the light so to speak, and as a christian, I can not sit by and do nothing. Please speak to Born in Brooklyn about me, and she will fill you in.

  253. Anybody know if these 2 Bateman boys from St. George are ex-Crikers?

    St. George man sentenced in beating

    ST. GEORGE – A St. George resident was sentenced to up to 15 years in prison Tuesday on a charge of aggravated assault for his role in a beating that allegedly arose from a drug debt.

    “You were there to collect drug money … (and) you were on probation at the time,” Judge Eric Ludlow told Brad Lee Bateman, 23, prior to issuing the sentence in 5th District Court. “I believe you are a threat to this community.”

    The article goes on to say…

    Bateman and a relative, Rann Dee Bateman, 26, were charged with felonies in the incident. Brad Bateman was prosecuted on a count of aggravated assault, and Rann Dee Bateman on a count of aggravated burglary following his arrest three weeks after the incident.

    A third suspect, Jessica Mae Winters, was charged with misdemeanor counts of criminal trespass and consumption of alcohol by a minor. Winters and Rann Dee Bateman already had been sentenced – Rann Dee Bateman is serving up to five years in prison.

  254. Brad Lee is a Cricker. His parents are Craig Sunderland Bateman and Leona Ruth Pledger. If Rann Dee is a relative then I’m sure he is too.

  255. Hey Walton, would you be protective of me too?

  256. Anyone like to identify? I haven’t a clue!

  257. David Rulon Pledger is really bad news. He was charged with Forcible Sexual Abuse 10 years ago when he was 20 years old. That Forcible Sexual Abuse was reduced down to a charge of Simple Assault for which he was convicted on 10/31/2001 and placed on 18 months probation.

    He was arrested this past April for receipt of stolen property and 2 counts of forgery. I guess he did something else recently to get him arrested on Sunday and have his bond revoked.

  258. KitKat, my best guess. All are left to right looking at the photo.

    Top row, on either side of Warren – Debra Michelle Barlow, Velvet Jessop
    Middle row – Asenith Lucille Jessop, Alissa Steed, Shanna Zitting, Anna Mae Blackmore.
    Bottom row – Lorraine Roundy, Unknown.

    All those named were married to Warren on October 15, 2002 and all were previously married to Rulon.

  259. Remember FLDS pretending they had an online store of mainly clothing, some other things. Didn’t seem to want to respond about such things as tax numbers and the like.

  260. The extra one is probably Warren’s wife and Merril’s daughter Millie. The dictation says that she was with him when he married each of these on October 15.

  261. Hey Walton, would you be protective of me too?

    Proud Texan said this on July 13, 2011 at 5:14 PM

    Yes. I don’t know anyone from here in real life. But I would never ever want anyone to get hurt. NO one. Ever.

    Have you ever been so afraid that your fear stopped you in your tracks and your blood ran cold. Your stomach jumps to your throat and it wasn’t until you let out a sigh that you realized that you were even holding your breath?

    I have. And there was reason. At one point I felt like that today until CAJim explained himself.

    So why do I keep posting? Because even with the fear, I have something that many of those guys do not. I have hope and…..I have a voice.

    And I really believe in the Texas Rangers, Sherrif Doran, Deputy George and Gary Engles and all the good guys who we don’t even know their names. I have to believe.

  262. In the Dictation from October 15, 2002 @ page 179, it says “Build up my other ladies. You can just imagine going from 25 to 42 in a week and a day. I know the Lord and father and the Spirit of God can make us sufficient. You are all so gorgeous, you too Millie. I have had Millie with me – – when father passed on and at each of these sealings – – to represent my other ladies because I can trust her. She won’t reveal anything.”

    That same night Leroy Jeffs was sealed to Alicia Violet Rohbock and Isaac Jeffs was sealed to Elizabeth Ann Rohbock. Alicia and Libby were sisters and both were married to Rulon.

    This was the 2nd batch of 7 of his father’s wives that Warren sealed to himself. The first took place Oct. 7 and included Paula Jessop, Patricia Keate, Melinda Johnson, Ora Bernice Steed, Naomie Jessop, Tamara Steed and Kathryn Jessop. Then, between the 2 groups of 7, he married 3 of his father’s wives, Carla Jane Jessop, Mary Marie Fischer (one of the swing girls) and Kathleen Susan Blackmore.

    He continued marrying his father’s wives through July 2003 and then he went got busy marrying underage girls. Out of the 20 girls he married between September 2003 and July 2007, 15 were underage. There were 3 who were 16, 1 who was 15, 4 who were 14, 3 who were 13 and 4 who were 12.

  263. To anon 6:34

    Middle:Lori Steed not Aseneth
    Bottom right: Stanley Jessops’ daughter. Can’t remember her name.

    I don’t know the Canadians.

  264. According to an article in the Eldorado Success, In Session has requested it be allowed to show the Jeffs’ trial on TV.

  265. a non, that would throw the whole theory I had behind the picture out of whack. Stanley Jessops’ daughter is Carla Jane and he married her on Oct 10. Lori Steed was married to Warren in 1999 and wasn’t one of Rulon’s wives.

  266. “Freedom of Religion” anyone want to insist our forefathers and battlefield veterans were approving and giving their lives, treasures and posterity to a religious sect that hadn’t even come into existance yet and wouldn’t for another 50 years? The freedom of religion that Thomas Jefferson was concerned about was the same principal that he wrote into the Virginia State Constitution which is the state should not franchise or choose one official religion and treat it above any other, freedom of equality of each faith to worship and believe whatever their creed or spirit lead them to espouse. In 1852, when the LDS Church leadership finally owned up to polygyny as a practiced tenet to their faith, Orson Pratt infamously proclaimed it as a US Constitutional right by religious and association freedoms, which has never been acknowledged by our Supreme Court in any judicial ruling(s). Never legalized back in the day, not acknowledge by Supreme Court ruling and never granted legal status within any State of the Union.

  267. Asenith Lucille Jessop is Stanley’s daughter too. Lori Steed is the one who throws off the balance of it being Rulon’s wives.

  268. If you didn’t get to watch the HDNet episode last night, it’s available on iTunes.


  269. McCrae Blackmore died up in Canada.

  270. Is this Millie Jessop the daughter of Merril? Mildred Annie Jessop?

    The birth certificate obtained by New Times is the first substantial evidence that an FLDS leader has engaged in illegal sexual conduct with a minor. The certificate states that Warren Steeds Jeffs is the father of Millie Jeffs, born in Hildale on July 7, 2000. The mother is listed as Millie Annie Jessop, born March 20, 1982. Based on a nine-month gestation, Millie Anne Jessop was 17 years and seven months old at the time of conception.

    New Times reported recently (“Fornicating for God,” March 20) that Jeffs, who is considered to be the FLDS prophet, is also the father of a baby delivered by Mildred Annie Jessop. Records indicate that the girl was 17 years, six months old at the time of conception based on complete gestation.

  271. Walton,
    polyissowrong is not employed by TLC and is a trustworthy individual.
    If Third Cousin feels comfortable providing the requested information, TC can provide that information to the administrators of this blog who will then forward the information to me – and I will then forward the requested information to polyissowrong. Any identifiers will be removed and anonymity will be maintained.

  272. yes anon, millie jessop and mildred annie jessop are the same. The child born was named Millie May Jeffs. She was one of the children at the ranch in 2008.

  273. So why do I keep posting? Because even with the fear, I have something that many of those guys do not. I have hope and…..I have a voice.

    And I really believe in the Texas Rangers, Sherrif Doran, Deputy George and Gary Engles and all the good guys who we don’t even know their names. I have to believe.

    Walton said this on July 13, 2011 at 7:13 PM

    Walton, I so very much appreciate your offering your hope and your voice. I don’t like hearing that you have fear, however.

    I am near “ground zero” trying to provide hope and a voice for the victims of polygamy. But, I REFUSE to ever live in fear for doing this.

    They don’t and never will scare me!

    I hope you will continue your personal crusade to help the victims of polygamy. We need you and appreciate you! And I hope you can get over your fear of doing what you are doing – and are so good doing!

  274. Proud Texan at 7:25 PM – what you posted made me want to puke.

    Warren saying in his his own words in his dictation from October 15, 2002 @ page 179, it says “Build up my other ladies. You can just imagine going from 25 to 42 in a week and a day.”

    Gag me with a spoon!

    Then you went on to say :
    He continued marrying his father’s wives through July 2003 and then he went got busy marrying underage girls. Out of the 20 girls he married between September 2003 and July 2007, 15 were underage. There were 3 who were 16, 1 who was 15, 4 who were 14, 3 who were 13 and 4 who were 12.

    FOUR WHO WERE 12 years old ?!?!?!

    Gag me with another spoon!

    I did get a chuckle out of the Mary Marie Fischer (one of the swing girls) part. Yes, Edna and Mary were the “swinging sister-sister wives” of that disgusting old man who was 60 years their senior.

    But the truth of that thought still brings on another “Gag me with another spoon” moment.


  275. just watched the HDnet report… wow. crazy stuff. Arnold Richter has some guts to stand up to that. even the video of the kid interviewing his dad made it in there. I’m impressed. well worth the two dollars for the program.

  276. According to an article in the Eldorado Success, In Session has requested it be allowed to show the Jeffs’ trial on TV.

    Proud Texan said this on July 13, 2011 at 7:42 PM

    Good, then I can just stay home and watch it all in my pajamas.

  277. What kind of precedent is there for televising trials in that jurisdiction?

  278. CAJim: pure poetry with the bees.

  279. Third Cousin, there are a couple of states very open to having Court TV televise trials. I know it is now called TruTV and In Session, but I still think of it as the old Court TV, which I have LOVED ever since I got hooked on it with the OJ Simpson criminal murder trial.

    Texas and Florida have been 2 of the predominant states allowing Court TV in the courtrooms. I watched the Texas trial in Houston of Clara Harris who ran over her cheating husband numerous times with her Mercedes Benz.

    Interesting that Warren’s attorney du jour was on that case. This is from her web site:

    Emily is a graduate of the Gerry Spence Trial Lawyers College and a faculty member of the Criminal Trial College. In 2003, she served as co-counsel in the nationally televised case, The State of Texas v. Clara Harris, otherwise known as “The Mercedes Benz Murder.” She has served as Treasurer and Vice President of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association.”

    Yep, Warren sure knows how to pick his attorneys… for the moment, hour, day, week or month that they work for him. I bet he doesn’t get any refunds from the hefty retainers paid to them.

    I just feel sorry for his faithful followers who are throwing their hard-earned money down a rabbit hole. Word is that Warren is interviewing his newest and latest attorney in an ongoing manner.

    It appears that Warren is never satisfied with his legal counsel and he refuses to follow their advice (and probably admit to his guilt of having had sex with 12-year-old little girls).

    Nope, Warren just keeps on going through the Yellow Pages to search for an attorney who will get him off for his sex with little girls.

    Good luck with that, Warren. And how are you (Warren) going to pay for the attorney’s once your faithful flock finally wakes up and says ENOUGH ALREADY YOU LYING FALSE PROPHET and PEDOPHILE!

    But for today, we have Warren’s attorney Emily Detoto –

    What new attorney will tomorrow bring?

  280. Detoto’s only job is to argue the rehearing to recuse Judge Walther. She hasn’t been hired as trial counsel.

    And to Gag me anon, yes 4 were 12. The first 12 year old was Brenda Lei who is a granddaughter of Merril. Next came the 12 year old Canadians and then came the one he is awaiting trial on.

  281. Something else to gag you. I talked to a juror from the Dutson case who said that there was evidence that Dutson’s underage wife didn’t know about sex and so her uncle, Warren Jeffs, gave her lessons.

    I think we might need to invest in some trial exhibits from that case. The Dear Uncle Warren letters might be eye opening.

  282. Dutson’s underage wife didn’t know about sex and so her uncle, Warren Jeffs, gave her lessons.

    That’s disgusting! I wonder how many others he ‘tutored’ before they married others? YUCK!

  283. Thanks 3C – “Killer bees may think they’re protecting the Kingdom’s keys but the sheeple made to stay down upon their knees only fervently ask for the ‘EndTime’, please”!

    Warren Jeffs in his dictations was repeatedly cautioning about someone had to teach these selected ‘Child Brides’, each girl was totally clueless about their own sexuality, on how to”get close quickly”(meaning go willingly into their honeymoon suites and not balk after the sealing was completed). I think as to a legal assessmsnt proves that these girls not only were too young to be married but had no way of making an “informed choice” since they had been taught no sex education and were innocent victims of sexual assaults.

  284. Jeffs thought he could bring all that to Texas. And he did.

  285. His attorneys have probably reviewed his acts and seeing he is toast, have told him to plead guilty rather than air all his dirty laundry – and be guilty anyway.

    Its a decision he just cant make, because of his inner conflicts.

    He still thinks he is the prophet, not the prophet, and back to being the prophet again.

  286. Steve Chapman conservative (mostly libertarian) columnist wrote a column in favor of Kody Brown. I don’t even know where to begin to draft a reply to him. Suggestions?

  287. Why don’t you ask Mr. Chapman about the childrens future and inheritance, seems like an awful lot of income that is currently being brought into the Brown family is being immediately and totally consumed. Ask about the divorce or seperation agreement that any of his sister wives can expect for herself and her batch of children. How would Cody Brown’s will be administered or any of his plural wives, seems to me right now that each child would get a hand full of hot Nevada sand, isn’t that a pleasant legacy to leave your loved ones.

  288. Jimmi Hendrix last written song had a lyric that read,”All castles made of sand wash back into the sea, eventually”. Seems to sum up the future desserts of celestial bliss for the majority of innocent children, unlucky enough, to have been born into a no win situation.

  289. HHG, I have now read Steve Chapman’s column and he has the bright eyed opinion of a ‘know nothing’ discussing the shame of Salt Lake as though it’s a benign practice and totally harmless. He mentions harems as though their is no American history on this practice either. The reality is that we have always band harems from even visiting or entering the US by enforcement of custom rules at our country’s borders. He claims to see no problem with now allowing a monogamy or polygamy system but the two institutions have a history of not co-existing very well together. Our colonial history left many English Common Law practices as fundamental foundations for our day-to-day living, monogamy is one such practice that has worked well here as an exclusive form of social contract. The world trendline today is to eliminate polygamy in the few countries where it exists and not to embrace and expand it’s practice.

  290. I received confirmation yesterday that Mac Blackmore died July 3 up in Canada. He was 66 years old.

  291. These libertarians like Chapman care little for the rights of women – but if you mention the “lost boys” who are kicked to the curb you may get their attention.

  292. Steve Chapman obviously missed the recent Canadian BC reference case with all of it’s professional, expert and actual polygamists testimonies. The majority opinion was a fairly stout condemnation of polygamy as a viable institution worthy of legalization. We are still awaiting the Chief Si\upreme Court Justices ruling but I think it’s fairly unlikely that his assessment will align at all with Steve Chapman’s benign practice perspective.

    Can Steve Chapman point to any clear benefits, positive influences or improvements over monogamy that are inherent found exclusively within polygyny. The common brand of polygyny found in Utah has it’s roots founded within religious teaching and not founded in the US secular or political practices.

  293. I am no libertarian, but I have to admit that outlawing polygamy works about as well as outlawing drugs; in short, not at all. I think the way to stop is to start a charity group that pays the legal bills of wives who leave polygamy so that they can get child support, alimony, child custody, settlement on shared marital property, etc. One of the main reasons the FLDS has the UEP is to avoid having their homes tied up in divorce proceedings and they go to great lengths to hide real money flows so that there is no chance of child support payments. Good lawyers could cut that stuff up one piece at a time like eating an elephant.

  294. True Betty

    Thats why the females in Shortcreek, and YFZ and any other flds property are kept as virtual slaves —-

    religiously, sexually, physically and mentally.

  295. Exactly right Betty the legalization of drugs in Denamrk has lead to addictions in certain citizens in their society and children that are born to parents, both of whom are addicts, imagine the losing proposition for an innocent child?

    If the fundamental building brick of a strong American society, community and government is the family unit, then we had better think clearly about what find of unit we are forming when we change or fiddle with the basic recipe. Common brick walls (monogamy) are formidable and strong when stacked in a pattern and held by a good mortar, likewise a cinder block wall (polygyny) can be a wall but the blocks are hollow, crack and are not good for foundations unless re-enforced with more rebar and mortar. Brick walls are proven to last far longer and withstand more conditions than hollow cinder block walls. Then no one suggests trying to make a masonry wall by mixing and matching both common bricks and cinder blocks into a solid wall, the materials themselves will flaw the strength and durability.

    The adage that, “A house divided against itself can not long stand” seems apropos here.

  296. Check it out – the FLDS are coming unglued at this suit by Wallace

  297. So that was Sam Brower in that other video. I think the black cowboy hat threw me off. I had always seen him in his baseball cap. 🙂 And knowing it is really Sam Brower- yup, I am buying his book.

    Brent H. did good with this piece. The thing is … if Warren was never the prophet nor was the man before him or the one before him and on and on.

    Rulon got his Prophet title the very same way.

    Good story Brent H.

  298. Here is another good story from Ben Winslow,0,7454821.story

    Be sure to check out the video. **note Paul Murphy’s comment**

    If anyone knows how to keep a video stored somewhere this is one that should be locked and kept safe.

  299. polysowrong- I checked out your site and noticed that you have a clip there from Hollywood Access. An interview done with Kody and wives.
    In the clip Robin talked about the move to Nevada. She said that Kody has talked about moving to Nevada for years. And that they use to go there for vacations and anniversaries blah blah blah.

    How long has Robin been tagging along on their anniversaries if she only came into the family just recently?

    Kody talked about his “career” and how he did really good with his busieness. Fantastic. Great. So why the bankruptcies? Early in the press releases it was mentioned that Kody was in some type of “gun busieness” and yet weren’t they all camping somewhere on the farm?

    Now.. the farm.. the buildings you have shown appear to be somewhat dated and yet they show a time on the bottom right hand side. They also show vehicles in the photo which means that the person that took the photos was there. Someone that wanted it to be shown. What you are not seeing are the places where they actually live. The house they had the big cookout imo is a ranch house. The very same old house that they supposedly put fresh paint on.

    As far as the Auntie that shared the cattle round up? imo she would be one of those innocent people that did NOT sign up for the fake reality show Sister Wives. I don’t think she was trying to lie. I think she was trying to be protective. She in my opinion is an innocent bystander in the Sister Wives scam. jmo I had read some of her things on line months ago and I don’t think she is trying to pull anything over on anyone. jmo

  300. Long read but it has LOTS of info.

    When you are done reading this google: Sister wives Bill Morrison

    I couldn’t get the actual link to I think an ABC interview that they did mentioning the very first attorney Bill Morrison but it was out there.

  301. Wow… looky here- Morrison was also involved with the Tom Green case.

    Now… if you look here and then follow thru with John Llewellyns other links you will find more info on the Tom Green story and other possible connections.

    It’s funny and not so funny how all these groups are connected in so many different ways.

  302. Not sure I follow your remarks about addicts in Denmark. Legalization of drugs in several countries has not led to a significant rise in addicts. In fact countries could take money used to prosecute and house criminals and spend that on drug addiction treatment and have plenty of money left over. Prohibition of alcohol didn’t work; it led to crime. Prohibition of drugs isn’t working either, it’s created huge crime cartels by creating a profit motive. Legislating morality does not work. I think the Canadian court case was excellent for getting together all the studies about how harmful it is, but it would not surprise me at all if they come back legalizing it. I think the lawyer’s have a point that we allow all sorts of other similar behaviors, so how can you really make a distinction between Arnold Schwartzenegger and Kody Brown? Obviously, I think religiously mandated polygyny is evil, but I don’t think outlawing polygamy is working. No one wants to prosecute it anyway, so what’s the point?

  303. Betty said:” I think the way to stop is to start a charity group that pays the legal bills of wives who leave polygamy so that they can get child support, alimony, child custody, settlement on shared marital property, etc. One of the main reasons the FLDS has the UEP is to avoid having their homes tied up in divorce proceedings and they go to great lengths to hide real money flows so that there is no chance of child support payments.”

    there are many on the outside that have those very same worries. There is something called Legal Assistance that helps those with those very same issues.

    And many legal wives have had to walk away with nothing but have done so for the safety of their children.

  304. Obtaining a marriage license isn’t just a piece of paper. There was/is a purpose.

    The requirement for marriage licenses in the U.S. has been justified on the basis that the state has an overriding right, on behalf of all citizens and in the interests of the larger social welfare, to protect them from disease or improper/illegal marriages; to keep accurate state records; or even to ensure that marriage partners have had adequate time to think carefully before marrying.

    One of the things that was found in the fact searches of Canada is that the long term farmful effect it had on women and children. And men.

    Even though many of the women entered the union knowingly they talked about the harms not only to them but their kids.

  305. BS, Betty. The reason for the UEP was so that people who shared a common belief could reside alongside one another without having the influence of the “wicked” or the disenfranchised in thier midst. It was to be a United Order effort.

    I admit that the purpose for which it has been used may be closer to what you suggest in your previous post. Tragic really…

  306. Down the evolutionary scale we who became humans have not changed much. Smart females go for the best hunters as mates. That translates to wealthy men and powerful politicians, on down the line, today. The evolutionary point of that is to better provide for and protect our children.

    Polygamy does neither provide nor protect. Mothers go to welfare that someone else’s working household providers pay for with their taxes for food, housing and medical care.

    That is just not right.

  307. And many legal wives have had to walk away with nothing but have done so for the safety of their children.

    Walton said this on July 14, 2011 at 2:37 PM

    Been there, done that.

  308. More of Arnold’s interview for HDNet.

    Part 1

  309. Part 2

  310. Part 3

  311. Those links play awesome, esp in full screen.

    Interesting they found out who he was by hacking his email.

  312. I think Warren needs a twitter account.

  313. Betty the Denmark legalization has since 1976 been basically overturned for three quite negative problems: “slummification”, ‘drug’ tourism (significantly increasing the drug use population, albeit they’re not residents) and establishing a firmly footed drug culture that is not law enforcement friendly. I was referring to the unlucky children born into this legalized slum haven to addict parents. The Christiana Experiment for the most part is over but the drug using slum has remained.

    I am taken aback about some of your views on enforcement of bigamy laws. The illegality bolsters monogamy as the sole and legalized form, not dissimilar to tobacco or liquor. The line was drawn before 1830s when Joseph Smith, Jr. came along. There is no popular view that gives polygamy a snowball-chance-in-hell of passage at the ballotbox. Arnold Swartznegger produced a huge PR campaign to deny his ‘player’ habits or it woulod have caused him a defeat for Governor. Bill Clinton lied as a candidate, as well, when he sought the US Presidency. You overlooked the fact that the LDS Church will excommunicate a Mormon member and has, like Rulon Jeffs, for practicing polygyny. The population is growing and the need to act, in hindsight, would have been before it was allowed to become as big a threat. Do you think the communities, county or States in Texas, colorado, Idaho, Nevada or South dakota have to endure this illegal practice being foisted upon them, obviously Texas has acted?

  314. I really am impressed by this Arnold Richter. He is very articulate and clear on the politics and foundational faith without being strident or angry or anything. Boy, too bad he couldn’t have been one of the leaders…

    Was he posting here?

  315. My “Answer Them Nothing” just arrived and I can forsee a long night of reading! I had to giggle, one of the photos lists Willie as Willie the Thug! Should be great reading.

  316. And why was Willie The Thug EVER a spokesperson for the FLDS. Arnold is articulate, well spoken, intelligent, and accurate.

  317. by the way do the administrators need any contributions to keep this site over?

  318. Willie R. “Thug” Jessop or Arnold Richter would both be flawed as spokespersons for the FLDS Church. Why? Neither was fully informed or clued into all of Warren’s activities, i.e. the remarrying of Rulon’s widows, the quickie “Child Bride” marriages across the Nevada border, the purges of Priesthood men w/o any chance of being forgiven/recalled, etc. I too am impressed with Arnold as an articulate, accurate, questioning and honest sharing of the Truth, as he views it. The off camera conversation was very dostracting but my guess an attorney or producer was trying to limit or guide the direction and interview topics.

    This points up Elissa Wall’s comment toward Allen Steed that he was/is a victim, too.

  319. I think the off screen person was someone who was monitoring how it was being recorded.

  320. CAJim, think of the 3 links as “outtakes”. It was what all was recorded to get the final product.

  321. CalJim, this is not at all the first time I have said that I am at least ambivalent to prosecution of polygamy. When I first started following this, I thought that. Then I researched it and changed my opinion. But further time and research and I have come back to the same conclusion that it just does not work to prosecute polygamy in and of itself. It’s a waste of time and money, especially when there are so many more crimes to chose from in most of the polygamist communities. It’s a target rich environment.

  322. Is Arnold Richter the son of Donald? brother to Robert?

  323. Yes

  324. I hear you Betty but the targets in the Rocky Mountain States is growing and the latest gulags are an escalation of concerns. Arnold Richter’s revelations of the litany of changes made by Warren leaves me with a stomach ache. The sex trafficking from Canada and reference polygamy case is pending and I think the verdict will be endorsing the status quo on polygamy statutes will be affirmed.

  325. Thanks Proud Texan. I just saw part 2 and am about to watch part 3.

    One of the things he kept saying that a big problem is that it was the one man rule.

    Many of the people I’ve read about grew up in neglected/abusive homes prior to Warren and some even prior to Rulon. They had the preisthood council team at those times. ( I think it’s calles something other)

    It is like blaming the newly elected President for things that happened prior imo. The issues imo go way back.

    So far I like the guy though.

  326. Wow… looky here- Morrison was also involved with the Tom Green case.

    Now… if you look here and then follow thru with John Llewellyns other links you will find more info on the Tom Green story and other possible connections.

    It’s funny and not so funny how all these groups are connected in so many
    different ways.

    Walton said this on July 14, 2011 at 1:30 PM

    Walton – Mary Batchelor’s maiden name was Morrison, and her father is or was an attorney.

  327. Done. I like the guy. And.. I think he hit on a lot of good points.

    I didn’t know that it was a federal offense if someone hacked your e-mail. And I’d like to know how he figured it out.

    Thanks for sharing the links. I’d be willing to send money for the chance to see this video. I didn’t want to sign into HDnet not being familiar with it.

    I would like to hear from someone of the LDS faith and their take on what he said.

    Who is Mac Blackmore?

  328. This whole thing about the “leaders” needing the child brides is just so similar to the typical Ponzi Schemes so very prevalent in Utah.

    Utah is probably the Ponzi Scheme capital of the US. The lower “men on the totem pole” have to supply the top tiered men.

    Go read the Utah newspapers on a daily basis and prove this to yourself, if you don’t believe me.

    In the FLDS’ case it is a Ponzi Scheme using little girls as child bride chattel and young boys as child slave labor instead of the typical Ponzi Scheme involving money and new investors to keep the ship afloat.

    Just like the FLDS, the lower men – not the leaders – have to supply their daughters to the dirty old men “leaders” sitting at the top of the Ponzi Scheme.

    It this isn’t the epitome of a RICO act, I don’t know what is!

  329. Nocturnal- I know. Who was Kody Browns first attorney? Bill Morrison
    Who signed off on the bankruptcies? I think it was Morrison.

    Dot. Dot.


  330. Anon. Yup, Utah is the Scamming state.

    The whole thing with Berry Knoll and the UEP/AUB has been nothing but a scam from get go. It was a good idea on paper and in thought but in order to get the things they wanted.. they scammed people out of their property.

    Woman and children sold chicken eggs to raise monies for some of that land.

    Crazy stuff.

  331. Here is another one for you Nocturnal.

    I think I can only post one link at a time otherwise my post is in a holding tank someplace.


    Virginia Hill Lawsuit -Facebook


    John Llewellyn has a great site and LOTS of info. And he is a nice guy.

  333. This is the one that will take longer to find out all the things that they are talking about. Seems like a thousand directions. But if you do a little bit at a time, you will see connections to connections that all lead to a light bulb that will light up.

  334. watched the Arnold Richter interview. wow, just wow. he put so many of my own thoughts into place. things I’ve wondered about, explained much better than I could myself. if only there were more people that thought like he does in the FLDS.

  335. Warren Jeffs in his dictations was repeatedly cautioning about someone had to teach these selected ‘Child Brides’, each girl was totally clueless about their own sexuality, on how to”get close quickly”


    More creepiness – did he believe that HE should be the one to do the “teaching?” How barbaric, like medieval lords who had the right to deflower all the virgins in their fiefdoms.

    I firmly believe that many of Warren Jeffs destructive actions (watching motel porn, having sex with little girls, sticking his nose into the sex lives of others) come from his own perverted sexual greed.

  336. Arnold, Arnold, Arnold!

    Thank you!! … thank you, from the depths of my aching heart. Keep shining that light. Hope and freedom will out. Thank you for putting yourself out there without the bitterness most typical to so many others in similar positions.

    You and I have always said, “Change must come from within.”

    Your voice and example is seminal and important toward inducing change from within. I have to believe there are more like you, perhaps not quite as brave – yet – but people looking for a way back to the integrity they once treasured and finally realizing they gave up – just to stay in the good graces a man.

    Kudos, my friend!!

  337. Betty said:
    “… I have to admit that outlawing polygamy works about as well as outlawing drugs; in short, not at all.”

    “Legislating morality does not work.”

    I agree!
    Keep looking for a better avenue, because that path is expensive and futile; that is, as long as we live under a democracy.

  338. Sadly, the shunning system that Arnold Richter describes clearly pointed out that he too is now an apostate, mored wiched that a ‘Gentile’. He does show that one can pass from the indoctrinated side back to a more reasoned and intlligently reasoned side. Another female apostate recently shared, after detaching from the AUB, that many of her girlfriends had chosen to stay and live accordint to “The Work” because they didn’t choose to higher educate, become more independent and were willing to compromise themselves to the church charity and controls. Very scary and sad proposition to here someone who stood up and walk out describe others willing to endure and not having to challenge themsrlves to improve their lot in life.

    I was reminded the the famous Underground Railroad slave Mrs. Tubman who said,”I was able to free a thousand slaves and could have freed a thousand more, if only I could have conviced them of their enslavement”.

  339. “I would have been able to free a thousand more slaves if I could only have convinced them that they were slaves.” ~Harriet Tubman

    Truer words…..

  340. E Texas, I think this brand of fanatical behavior only exists in secrecy, hiding and sequestered from the Public & Press view and full knowledge.
    Focusing a spotlight upon it causes our Democracy to stare at a Theocracy, forces our elected officials to confront a counter-control system in opposition to them and reveals an outlaw and organized culture working away and outside of our society, intentionally and by its very design. Is this a freedom that was never intended by our forefathers, I mean is it “We the people” or is it “We the people and that seperate group that opposes us and is hidden over there”. There’s a problem here and it runs contrary to “United We Stand”, the way our Canadian/Mexican borders are being used as ‘free zones’, the obvious hidden agenda displayed in Eldorado, Texas when the unannounced community moved in and constructed their Temple & the disregard for our ‘Gentile’ laws and elected governance has to be reconciled and held to account for these seditious behaviors. Leaving a rogue prophet and his zealot church to reek havoc upon their targeted counties is impossible to ignore, condone nor ‘look the other way’, we dare not.

  341. “… I have to admit that outlawing polygamy works about as well as outlawing drugs; in short, not at all.”

    The fact that polygamy is not legal in this country is a relief for many Moslem female immigrants. Can’t speak for what goes on in Utah, the Utah state attorney general should vigorously pursue those who coerce women into participating in polygamy by enforcing anti polygamy statutes selectively for cases of coercive religious polygamy.

  342. BiB, but if it’s not enforced, that relief is just an emotion based on nothing. It isn’t enforced because 1) no one is making a complaint and 2) DA’s don’t want to face the constitutional challenge that is inevitable.

    Are people who bring their “niece” into the country punished or expelled? I see women in Sam’s Club who look to me like islamic polygamists – women of different ages wearing hijab and fully covering clothing with kids who do not look like blood relatives and then one of them (usually the oldest) pays for all the purchases. Maybe I’m just conditioned to see polygamists, but it seems to me that there are plenty moving here and setting up their lives and the laws are not slowing them down much.

  343. For instance, I was chatting on a news blog with someone who wants to outlaw Sharia Law in the US. One of his arguments was that people are doing honor killing here. I responded that murder is already illegal. He said the Muslim community does not report the murders so they can’t be prosecuted. So, if one law is defied and even murder is not reported, an additional law on a religious organization that might or might not have been involved in the murders will do the trick? In fact, if you hide and bury a body that was involved in a murder, a whole slew of laws have already been broken. What’s more, the honor killings we know about are in the news BECAUSE they are being prosecuted. Makes no sense to me.

  344. Betty, if not now then when will polygyny as a practice be prevented? The Short Creek community back in 1952 was around 2,500 population and maybe a net worth of under $10.0M. Then today we hear that the Hildale and Colorado City area is 10,000+/- and the FLDS Church has maybe a net worth of $100.0+M. Does quadrupling a population and increasing it’s financial net worth ten-fold over 60 years pose any concerns? Left alone the next projection into 2052, a century later would show, 40,000 population and a net worth of $1.0Billion spread over seven States, namely Utah, Arizona, Texas, South Dakota, Colorado, Nevada and Idaho.

  345. Funny how these new ‘Lands of Refuge’ were sited, occupied and spread into small/remote counties vulnerable to population increases of merely 1,000 to 2,500 to become a dominant base within a sparsely populated region. The hidden agenda is that with FLDS Church sustained outside financing, population growth and voter/tax base increases all of these selected counties are targets for eventual take-overs by the Warrenites.
    Individual counties are ill prepared to defend against these planned take-overs and the targeting effort is obvious.

  346. Islamic women report that the law is a deterrent to being forced to live polygamy, and I will take their word for it. If the law was not in place local imams could perform ceremonies for secondary marriages when the first wife has not consented, despite the fact that tradition dictates that the secondary marriage is not to take place without express permission of the first wife. I have also seen that the threat of the law being enforced is very effective for the first wife getting whatever she wants in a divorce proceeding. Can’t speak to what goes on in Virginia or Utah for that matter, I know it works here.

  347. How much is the UEP worth?

    How about the AUB?

    How much in child support is collected in these communities?

    How much has been spent housing those that have broken the “other laws”?

    How much has been spent for welfare assistance in Hilldale? Colorado City?

    How many live in homes that Warren has built getting housing assistance and in turn cutting Warren a check? How about the greens? The Jessops? The Allreds?

    How much has been spent tracking down fake social security cards/numbers? Fake Id’s.

    How much has been spent in medicaid for the families that continue to gain a wife and 5 kids.

    How much has been spent for those outside the community.

    Why on earth should a person wait until the little Merrianns become a 12 year old wife and mother BEFORE something is done?

    They need to use many of the laws they aleady have in place and they need to follow thru. No more looking the other way.

    What happened with Parley Jeffs Duston shouldn’t have happened.
    What happened with Merriann shouldn’t have happened.
    The crap done to Flora shouldn’t have happened.
    on and on and on

    The Safety Net should never have allowed for Brenda and the others to feel as if they weren’t welcome. The case workers that are seeing Food stamps being issued to a 14,15, 16 year old girl should have their arses in jail as well for not reporting the things they see/suspect.

    Nate Carlisle did a fantastic piece about the illegal immigration and social security numbers. Take it one step further and see how it effects not just Utah, not just Arizona and not just illegal immigrants.

    I think Betty said it would be a waste of tax-payers monies. Tell you what, those collecting a check and not doing a job is what is a waste of tax-payers monies.

    I’ve said for years that there needs to be some type of task force. And I think Sam Brower and Gary Engles are the best ones for the job. Neither one is afraid to follow the law or do their job.

    No name for daddy? no food stamps. No child support- Tent city.

  348. Federal Task Force and seizing polygynist assets of all sects, i.e. Kingstons, AUB, Centenniel Park and FLDS Church’s will put them on the defensive instead of the charades we deal with today. The Edmunds-Tucker Act seized control ot the LDS Church assets and brought sweet reasonableness to the Utah Territories and it can do it, again, but at the Federal level that will cross all state borders. Funds taken from polygynist resources should, like seized drug assets, then be used to end the polygyny pracices in toto. All Rocky Mountain States need to redress existing statutes to enhance enforcement, increase term sentences and sponsor revisions to existing statutes that redress these new loop-holes and organized practices to avoid enforcement. Utah and Arizona need to be forced to perform the pivotal roles in enforcement, since their laissez-faire treatments caused this problem to reach these more forceful measures to be instituted, they should, also, bear a greater cost for the enforcement to pay for their disproprtionate share in it’s causation.

  349. The Safety Net should never have allowed for Brenda and the others to feel as if they weren’t welcome. The case workers that are seeing Food stamps being issued to a 14,15, 16 year old girl should have their arses in jail as well for not reporting the things they see/suspect.

    If I was Brenda and the others, I would simply show up to be in their face.

  350. BinB the ‘bleeding the beast’ includes being self-sufficient but sending your living wages to the fundamentalist prophet then pleading hardship to your local welfare office, kinda like money-laundering in reverse. The fundy church gets your income and the follower gets the taxpayer’s support from the welfare checks.

  351. I think this is the last time that we had actually seen any numbers.

    In one of the videos that came out of Canada there was a young woman who was married to Winston Blackmore. Talk about torn. I think she really loved Winston. And with all the hardships, pain etc. she still said that she thought people should have a choice to practice. She still couldn’t see thru the forrest that what she thought was ok was the very practice that caused the pain.

    But that his why different agencies are out there. Even if they don’t want to testify. There has been enough proof with other things that they should have been brought to court. Not only to protect her but to protect us.

    Winston had/has access to how much money and he owed the Canadian govt. xx amount of dollars. And yet…his family was/is still being supported by government programs.

    I don’t know of any other states that allows the mother to list a no daddy 2 times let alone 5-10 times.

  352. .If I was Brenda and the others, I would simply show up to be in their face.

    Born In Brooklyn said this on July 15, 2011 at 10:59 AM

    I think she has so much to offer. As well as the others. But I think I’ve picked her out because she reminds me of someone.

    Put her on a committee getting some of those kids something to do and I know she’d keep them busy.

  353. Yes she does have a lot to offer, which is why she belongs on that committee. Never give in to pressure, always keep hanging on.

  354. Well, after viewing all of Arnold Richter’s interview on HDNET My take is he is about halfway out of the forest and definitely past the darkest center. His quoting and belief in Joseph Smith, Jr. gives me some pause because the facts about Smith’s exit from Kirtland, Ohio and his subsequent arrival in Far West, Missouri caused a total take-over of that Missouri Mission and tosssed the standing leadership out on their ears. Arnold commenting about Smith shepherding and everyone peacably following just does not align very well with causes to the 1838 Mormon War in Missouri. Two leaders in Missouri, namely WW Phelps and David Whitmer founded Far West and fled this Mormon community with Oliver Cowdery, William Wines, Lyman E. Johnson and John Whitmer in fear of their lives and leaving all of their property and possessions behind them, scared by some, up to then unknown, threat by “Danites”. David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery are two of the ‘Three Witnesses” to the Prologue of the ‘Book of Mormon’ and WW Phelps was one of the original LDS converts to Mormonism.

    Unlike Arnold’s quote that people willingly and lovingly followed Smith, these men told a tale of mortal threats and stolen property.


  356. Excellent article Belle, thanks for sharing!

    A real eye opener!

    Turley has himself a little agenda!

  357. CalJim, I am not saying that it should not be prevented. Just questioning HOW to prevent it. You know that quote about doing the same thing and expecting a different result?

  358. Polyissowrong and present company:

    I will not be able to help with the Brown family genealogy family. I’m sure Poly’s intentions are good, but I can’t feel right about it. Many here have helped me with my genealogy, but it is totally private and I don’t publish it anywhere online. I feel that Kody and his wives made a choice to put themselves and their children in the limelight, but their relatives did not. I hope everyone can understand that position.

  359. I absolutely agree with you, Walton about most of your points. It seems really obvious to me that if one county in the state uses a disproportionate amount of welfare money then the State should look into it. I find it hard to believe that there is no fraud or the fraud cannot be detected. Or perhaps the law needs to be reworded so that women who frequently get pregnant while receiving aid cannot continue to get aid without divulging the identity of the baby daddy. Several states already have and already enforce such laws. When a woman is abused, she should not have to go to a member of the priesthood who has made a vow to be obedient to Warren Jeffs to get help. I do not understand why, given what they already know about corruption in the fire dept, water board, police department, etc. that some action cannot be take to remove the authority of those answering only to that small community and not to laws of the state in general. Why does Utah and Arizona give sentences of a few days for underage marriages if the man involved is a polygamist? The problem is not going to be solved by not enforcing YET ANOTHER law. The problem is a whole culture of denial and secrets to cover up the theocracy and the patriarchy. Seems like to me if the various law enforcement groups really wanted to break up this crime ring they have lots and lots of crimes to go after that will NOT land them in a Constitutional challenge. And yet they do not. WHY????

  360. Greetings E. Texas!!! Good to hear ya, I’ve only heard the first Richter segment so far, but how enlightening!

  361. BiB and Walton, Brenda DID attend the Safety Net meetings for several years; so did Sara Hammon.

    The Centennial Parkers attending the Safety Net meetings slowly turned it into their personal soap box to rave about decriminalizing polygamy.

    The people running the Safety Net meetings should never have allowed that to happen, but they did. After being called a liar (Sara) and listening to the Centennial Parker’s constant BS, Brenda and Sara stopped going.

    It was no longer a meeting trying to find solutions and resources for victims of polygamy; it became a monthly get together for the CP to push decriminalization.

    It is still that way today. Go online and listen to the publicly broadcast meeting and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

    But, today it is more than just the CPAC group, it is also the Allreds, the Kingstons, Anne Wilde, Mary Bachelor and many others.

  362. WOW Walton, that is some pretty amazing stuff posted on that web page. I can’t believe that the old DI ranch owned by a mobster is now the swanky Kayenta community in Ivins.

    This part of the web page really got my attention:

    Corporation of the Presiding Elder of Apostolic United Brethren (AUB)

    Utah Department of Commerce Transcript #149512, organized 3-14-75

    Registered Agent: Owen A. Allred

    AUB is the second largest polygamist cult in Utah with approximately 5000-7000 members in 1975. Virginia Hill sued the AUB cult in 1997 for fraudulently conning $1.54 million in cash from her. The AUB territories extend as far as Pinesdale, Montana and include(d) the Granite Ranch and a plan to secretly obtain title to DI Ranch (a/k/a Eagle Ranch Academy today) for their cult. In 1989, AUB decided against purchasing the DI Ranch property. (For more information on Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) cults, click here.)

    Mark Shurtleff is the son of Lawrence “Lee” Shurtleff as well as the Attorney General of Utah. Larry Shurtleff was employed by Hyrum Smith to oversee the DI Ranch while under Smith’s ownership. The DI Ranch is now owned by DI Ranch LLC and is used by Eagle Ranch Academy. See: “The current owners (DI Ranch LLC) bought the property from Hyrum Smith (owner/founder of Franklin Planners), who built a beautiful 4000 Sq. Ft. Lodge that will house Eagle Ranch Academy Students when they are on the Ranch for work projects…” Taken from the http:// www.

    Hyrum W. Smith is more than the founder of Franklin Planners. He is also on the board of SkyWest Airlines which is owned by J. Ralph Atkin (the founder of WWASPS). And, he is the founder of Golden Eagle Motivation. The current owner of DI Ranch LLC (a/k/a Kayenta Homes & Properties) is Doug Caputo. As seen above, Eagle Ranch Academy agrees that the current owner(s) of DI Ranch LLC (Doug Caputo) allow Eagle Ranch Academy use of the property and are using the children farmed in as slave labor for building (most likely, anyway). The renewal of the grazing permit was transferred in 2003 from Hyrum W. Smith to DI Ranch LLC:

    “GRAZING PERMIT NO. 22906 (ASSIGNMENT)…Hyrum W. Smith and A. Gail Smith, P.O. Box 40, Gunlock, UT 84733, have requested permission to assign

    100% interest in the above referenced grazing permit to D.I. Ranch L.L.C., 800 Kayenta Parkway, Ivins, UT 84738 D.I. Ranch L.L.C., 800 Kayenta Parkway, Ivins,

    UT 84738, has requested permission to collaterally assign 100% interest in the above referenced grazing permit to Zions First National Bank, 2460 South 3270 West,

    West Valley City, UT 84119.

  363. Yes, Betty new strategies, tactics, techniques and statutes but constant pressures, unrelenting enforcement and increasing consequences will add up, it always does and the goal should stay in focus and not the obstacles. Repear offensives seem to be headed Texas’ way with the unrepentant offenders, continuing supporters and resolved FLDS leadership. I believe repeat offenders see raisewd degrees for their offenses and these operating gulags have got to be ended. The tail at times has been wagging the dog. Arnold Richter described the zealotry, fervency and fanatical caste members that has to be matched in kind and special operations investigators and enforcement is warranted. Tolerating ‘Warrentikstan’ is not the diplomatic response that is viable, still think the Federal government will play a role in the more viable redress to this underworld.

  364. I have listened now to both Wallace Jeffs(see: RECENT POSTS ‘All in the Family’) and Arnold Richter’s interviews and I was struck by them being concerned, after being made apsotates, about the same subjects. The very same subjects that I recall Willie R. ‘Thug’ Jessop assured the Press and Public would no longer be practiced behaviors within the FLDS Church or recommended by it’s leadership. Willie stated emphatically that ‘Child Brides’ would no longer be celestially sealed, yet both Wallace and Arnold express doubts about that promise being delivered. Willie R. “Thug” Jessop, now to an apostate, has now disavowed the prophet and hauntingly states that the actions of his ex-prophet are “morally indefensible”, exactly the repugnance that Wallace and Arnold seemed focused on and the fact that the prophet seems today to only dictate behaviors and explain not prior acts or change in past norms. If they are so worried, concerned and ripe with regrets, should we not be concerned that we’ve been lied to and worried that newer sexual trafficking will happen, as well?

  365. United States populaton today: 311,772,797

    The majority of the population has no problem following the laws. imo

    I am not saying anyone needs to go looking in bedroom windows or follow the Kody Brown moving circus. I am saying that if you break the law and it is known they should follow thru with a punishment.

    If someone from home ### has 3 pop ups when entering info for assistance it should be investigated. When a social worker is offering marriage therapy to one man and 5 women and paid for by the tax-payers it should be investigated.

    Kody Brown and clan are breaking the law.

  366. CAJim do you remember seeing an interview with Bill Shapley outside the gates of Texas? He made it perfectly clear that he and the others found no issue to marry the young girls at an early age.

  367. My way of dealing with genealogy online is not to show info of living persons. Ethics.

  368. I remember that Walton. Not long after we heard he had been exed again.

    BTW, Bill Shapley is Arnold’s father-in-law.

  369. I remember that Walton. Not long after we heard he had been exed again.

    BTW, Bill Shapley is Arnold’s father-in-law.

    Proud Texan said this on July 15, 2011 at 8:39 PM

    Sometimes I am sure my hubby can see my head just spinning. I am sure of it.

    As far as the whole genealogy thing – I have read a lot of history by reading what has been on line. A lot of good history. Not only with the FLDS but with many others.

    I followed the railroad thru out the United states by reading the history of people on line. amazing the amount of relatives one can find taking the tracks thru history. Good stuff when shared with caution.

  370. Concerning houses of refuge, I think I will repeat again what I have said a few times. I was at Richard Allred’s house wiring coolers on his roof when one of his boys mentioned to me that Warren wanted to get a group in every state that “didn’t have laws against the priesthood people.” At the time, I didn’t think about that statement in terms of underaged marriage.

  371. Anon. check this out:

    one more link coming.


    I am not pro-polygamy. But sometimes those missing links are answered by reading the “other side”.

    Tom Green used the death of his son from a fire to lay the ground for defrauding the “system”. He said that the reason they needed to go on welfare was due to the tragedy.

    Not so.

  373. Gee, it is so encouraging that the Utah Attorney General just busted 4 Hispanic guys for “a vast DVD and music CD pirating ring” that amounted to $70,000.

    What about the people living down in Hildale costing the Utah taxpayers MILLIONS of dollars each year, Mr. Shurtleff.

    Oh, yeah, I forgot. AG Mark Shurtleff is too busy bringing lawsuits against college football and the BCS playoffs.

    Forget about the pesky welfare piranhas, there is college football to worry about. For the Utah Attorney General, it is time to “punt”!

    Authorities break up alleged music, movie pirating ring

  374. Yep, Anon the AG says he won’t pursue mere polygamists but sex trafficked Canadian ‘Child Brides’ brought to Utah to be celestial sealed and then raped and transported out of State into Texas seems to have gotten lost in his stack of things to do list. Thank God for the Safety Net ‘cuz nobody can accuse him of doing absolutely nuthin’. Thanks to the savve Texas Ranger John Hanna and the Canadian RCMP (Mounties) or nothing would be under investigation. Seems like athe FLDS Church underworld syndicate, using his State like a Las Vegas drive-thru Chapel, would have garnered a little but more attention but I guess Mark Shurtleff is going to let the Texas Rangers and Canadian Mounties handle the legal ends, rather amazing.

  375. Well, after viewing all of Arnold Richter’s interview on HDNET My take is he is about halfway out of the forest and definitely past the darkest center. His quoting and belief in Joseph Smith, Jr. gives me some pause because the facts about Smith’s exit from Kirtland, Ohio and his subsequent arrival in Far West, Missouri caused a total take-over of that Missouri Mission and tosssed the standing leadership out on their ears. Arnold commenting about Smith shepherding and everyone peacably following just does not align very well with causes to the 1838 Mormon War in Missouri. Two leaders in Missouri, namely WW Phelps and David Whitmer founded Far West and fled this Mormon community with Oliver Cowdery, William Wines, Lyman E. Johnson and John Whitmer in fear of their lives and leaving all of their property and possessions behind them, scared by some, up to then unknown, threat by “Danites”. David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery are two of the ‘Three Witnesses” to the Prologue of the ‘Book of Mormon’ and WW Phelps was one of the original LDS converts to Mormonism.
    Unlike Arnold’s quote that people willingly and lovingly followed Smith, these men told a tale of mortal threats and stolen property.

    Now that I have listened to it all, I didn’t take it that way. I felt like he was pulling punches for fear he might offend a Mormon audience. I don’t know if Carol or others at the interview were Mormon, but I got the sense he wanted to tread carefully in talking about early Mormon History, and also show how we have gone against what we were formerly taught.

  376. My take is that he is a deeply faithful and thoughtful man. Whether or not he still believes in Joseph Smith is irrelevant, isn’t it? He seems to be the kind of person who will take the good and leave the bad, which is something we can all aspire to be. I mean, I aspire to do but not with the success he apparently has…

    Go Arnold, your newest fan.

  377. cement – thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. It is appreciated much more than you will ever know.

  378. Two new links on the blog roll,

    Sister Wives blog – Behind the scenes details of the ‘Reality show’ exploitation of the Kody Brown clan

    SLTRIB Polygamy blog – Fresh polygamy blog with Lindsay Whitehurst taking over where Brooke left off

  379. Cement

    I havent watched it all but found Richter coming off as a likeable, intelligent man though its true he couches his words and seems careful not to offend.

    I dont hold that against him however I would say his journey out of the forest is not yet complete.

    Like many others in the sect who actually paid attention and saw abuses and contradictions, he eventually came to a place where his “stored boxes of questions” crashed down, and in picking them up he had to review them.

    Once any sect starts changing rules and acts inhumanely to members, the good, smart and truly righteous will find it necessary to abandon the lies to keep their own sanity.

    I still wonder about Willie and his statement against Warren, I find it hard to imagine he didnt know what was going on and now, suddenly he finds the behavior morally indefensible.

    Perhaps for the flds sake they need to start behaving in a morally defensible way, come clean with the errors of their ways and decry misbehavior.

    I wont hold my breath.

  380. page 38, item 228

    Turley conjoins muslims in with the Browns as a harmed class that needs to practice polygamy freely so they can get their groove on here too.

    Turleys suit at the link.

    He is also asking reasonable attorney fees. I reckon he is just as likely to be CHARGED court costs and attorney fees

  381. Turley is an attorney who works for the polygamous Bin Laden family. Turley is asking for reasonable attorney fees ? Sounds like the Bin Ladens are footing the bill …

  382. Turley wrings his hands over losing the Tom Green case and promises an appeal.

    That went pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffftttttttttttttttt.

  383. I think he put that in there as something else to sling at the wall.

    When you are asking for the moon, ask for mars too?

  384. cement, HDNet is not a Mormon entity, it is owned by Mark Cuban, owner of the Dallas Mavericks.

  385. HHG, I think that Arnold’s progression toward more truth is great, I just want to know his thinking on polygamy, because I didn’t hear any disavowals and that for me is amongst the primary problems. Changing the prophet and leadership and leaving the polygyny in place isn’t a viable solution. imo. Arnold critique the FLDS Churchmen that proclaim persecution based upon their own illegal actions, is he a practicing polygamist or opposed to it’s practice?

  386. What he said was: let consenting adults do what they want
    that he was a monogamist
    and that waiting until girls were adults to be a consenting adults was a very significant moral problem.

    at least that is what I “heard”

  387. excuse NOT waiting until they are adults is a significant moral problem

  388. HHG, I don’t know Arnold’s specific persuasions but I know that the pressure within the Priesthood of the FLDS Church is to be obedient and plural marriage is the greater good. ExFLDS member Dan Fischer discussed in his own life how much pressure was brought to bear upon him to live the polygamist lifestyle, he claims today he had it forced upon him to conform to the teaching and his heart/mind was never into it. If you’re FLDS and try to live your life monogamously and then have daughters/sons, this issue doesn’t end nor go away.

  389. To the poster who recently ask about Roger Nevermissashot, he has a court hearing on Tuesday.

    ERIC A LUDLOW July 19, 2011
    Courtroom 2A Tuesday
    09:00 AM
    REVIEW HEARING STG 111500150 Other Misdemeanor
    OTN: 34080242 DOB:
    MB – CRIMINAL TRESPASS – 02/02/11
    MC – INTOXICATION – 02/02/11
    IN – DISORDERLY CONDUCT – 02/02/11

  390. Good luck Mr. Nevermissashot. I love your name.

    Maybe you should think about going straight. That glue sniffing will fry your brain.

    Thanks anon.

  391. In pondering Warren’s pending trial over his marriage to MJ, it brings back a time when Warren tried for a quadruple play of underage marriages, instead of just a triple play as he had for his MJ wedding.

    On July 22, 2004 he gathered LeRoy Steed Jeffs, LeRoy Johnson Steed, Edson Porter Jessop, Jr and himself as potential grooms and had Allen Steed, Bob Barlow, Jim Allred and F. Merril, Jr bring their underage daughters for slaughter.

    LeRoy Jeffs got MRB, who was later married to Allen Keate and the child she had with Keate put him in the slammer for 33 years. I think Leroy Jeffs should be singing praises to Keate, because it could have just as easily been him and the girl would have been 14 instead of 15.

    LeRoy J. Steed got ELJ, daughter of F. Merril Jr and granddaughter of F. Merril Sr. Leroy will go on trial later this year for his part in the potential quadruple play.

    Warren married TA, daughter of Jim Allred. I guess she didn’t get pregnant because this isn’t one of the marriages that he was indicted for.

    Edson Jr got a reprive. Allen Steed’s daughter wasn’t allowed to be married. Edson should be sending Allen gifts all the time because while Allen got exed for his trouble, Edson saved himself the fate of the other men who took underage brides that day.

    Ages of the girls involved in the quadruple play:
    TA – 14
    ELJ – 14
    MRB – 14
    AES – 13.

    Edson would have been in the under 14 category and facing felony sexual assault of a child. He needs to kiss Allen Steed’s boots everyday.

  392. I’ve just finished Susan Ray Schmidt’s book and started Irene Spencer’s. All I can say is that these women were a lot tougher than me. When Verlan LeBaron started taking his families to Central America, I would have been heading stateside. Of course I probably wouldn’t have ever made it in the LeBaron Colony and for sure wouldn’t have been at Ensenada or Los Molinos. I want hot and cold running water and a bathroom inside, not to mention AC and heat.

    Susan might not have known any better having been raised in the LeBaron Colony, but Irene came from Utah at age 15 or 16. What a culture shock.

  393. cement- you can see the rest of the interview here:

    You don’t have to register any place I think the second video shows a couple of families.

    I think… Issac Wyler was there. Gary Engles. Willie Jessop etc.

    I am not sure if that is the Issac Wyler that interviewed with Mike Watkiss. If it’s not him it’s the other one.

    I believe Gary Engles to be a good man. And I know that baby steps must be taken sometimes on day to day basis. If I weren’t so dang stubborn I might have walked away long ago.

    I know what I know. I am still against polygamy. It’s a big world out there and there is just no way I will ever condone it. I hope it remains illegal and I hope those in charge follow thru with not decriminalizing the practice but to enforce the law. And I am hoping that all those involved will make sure that happens.

    There were some really good looking kids there. I saw people playing kickball etc. the kids can win me over everytime.

    I think the book burning thing should have been left out as there has been no formal charges or investigation of any sort that supports the claims she is making.

    Hey yeeehaaa your buddy in the video had a spot in there.

    Thank you HDnet for making it available without having to sign in for anything.

    I like Mr. Richter.

  394. Walton, there is an investigation into the book burning. The CCPD are trying to make it difficult, but other authorities are digging into it.

  395. Please continue on General Discussion #59.

  396. It would be wonderful if the “Please continue…” could be a link to the new Discussion. Just wishin’.

  397. Ask and ye shall receive!!!

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