General Discussion #57

Continued from General Discussion #56

Lots of developments:

(Besides a good side story of the “Sister Wives” and their TLC sham)

Warren loses bid to get new Judge

Warren loses bid to delay trial 4 months – slated for July 25, 2011

UEP properties face tax lien sales, tax delinquencies run in the millions and growing

Warrens latest perpwalk photos show an evidently dejected Jeffs…

Perhaps reality has set in?

Also see:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/photos/2011/jun/14/47889/

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on June 15, 2011.

506 Responses to “General Discussion #57”

  1. Here’s a good article about the delinquent taxes in the twin cities.

    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/state/story/EXCLUSIVE-FLDS-polygamists-2-1-million-behind-on/UPLhnqwu2067CxOECBbX3A.cspx

  2. The article on the taxes isnt correct. Utah and Arizona both sell delinquent properties at public auction.

    There are different rules on how that works, but they WILL be sold unless they are brought current.

    Who to pay, the taxman or the attorneys?

    Those FLDS have so many alligators eating them alive they might as well move to the swamp.

  3. I know that Texas sells property for delinquent taxes. There were a whole bunch of cases in the paper this week.

  4. Read Warren’s dictations here:

    http://phrecords.wordpress.com/2010/07/02/2004/

    “The Lord has shown me that our people who are faithful are about to be driven from Short Creek and sent me to find many lands scattered moving east for the faithful to come and live. January 3, 2004.

    The ordinances of the House of the Lord will not be restored in Short Creek. Our meetings won’t be restored in Short Creek. Our meetings will be restored in the places of refuge. January 3, 2004”

    There is one dictation where Warren actually shakes off the dust of his shoes at Short Creek and pronounces a curse upon Short Creek

  5. Thanks, chemist. Found the ‘dusting’ in Wednesday, June 16, 2004 dictation.

  6. This is watergirl. I don’t seem to be able to sign in. Not sure the issue.

    regarding sisterwives bankruptcy – my understanding is that once you have gone bankrupt your credit rating returns to good status and you get a “do over.” So past bankruptcy can’t stop someone from renting to you or giving you a credit card. You just can’t declare bankrupt again for 7 years so you have to start paying your way or the credit score will dip again without recourse. It is like a whole new start.

    I know they mentioned on the show about one of the kids having a medical procedure and no insurance. that may be the cause of some of it. But, to continue to breed beyond your ability to support is what gets my goat.

  7. Watergirl,
    Their medical expenses were NOT significant contributors to their bankruptcy. Their credit card debts WERE the most significant expenditures for the bankruptcies of Christine, Kody, and Meri. Take a look at the detailed listings of their assets and liabilities. I don’t think that after bankruptcy that your credit score reverts to a high level immediately…it takes several years to build up a good reputation and score. Why isn’t Kody paying for medical insurance for his children, or applying for medicaid if they are legible ? Why does Kody keep having children he cannot afford ?

  8. I just checked the bankruptcy statements of Meri and Kody Brown (2005) and Christine Brown (2010)

    Of the > 85,000 dollars Meri and Kody owed in 2005 at the time of the bankruptcy filing, less than $2000 was for medical bills. The rest was accounted for by credit card purchases.

    Of the > 25,000 dollars that Christine owed in 2010, only about 2500 dollars was for medical care. The rest of the debt was incurred for credit card purchases not related to healthcare.

    What liars these people are ! They are trying to sell to the public their tale of woe about medical expenses wiping them out …NOT !!!

  9. … and someone needs to explain why Kody was able to afford a wedding reception, bachelor party, and honeymoon with new wife Robyn in Mexico in 2010 while on the TLC payroll, but he was not able to pay his daughter’s doctor bills for an emergency appendectomy in 2010 which cost about 2500 dollars according to Christine’s records in the bankruptcy filing of 2010 ?

  10. BiB, I agree, why have kids if you can’t afford it and don’t have medical insureance for at least the one that got sick.

    If you looked at my credit card debt summary you would not know it was paying off medical stuff from last year. thankfully I have insurance – but the copay was still around $3,000 per surgery for 2 surgeries.

    I also wonder how they can afford 4 houses and all those kids when they quit the only jobs they have and move. I was expecting Jannelle to stay behind to keep bringing in the doe and put old house on market. I doubt LE would have gone after her. Wonder how much TLC pays per episode? Does TLC also give out insurance? Did Robyn have insurance? She was not working in SLC and now moves to a new city and decides it is time.

  11. Watergirl,
    There are itemized expenses for the credit card bills on Christine Brown’s detailed bankruptcy statement.
    One credit card was used to pay off medical bills. There is less than 2000 dollars charged to that card. Payments to the lab and the ER doctors were also listed separately and NOT PAID.
    The other credit card’s statements were listed on the bankruptcy report as payments for retail goods. Home Depot and Columbia House Records are listed as creditors who were never paid, for example. Read the detailed statements. You are an ethical person, Watergirl – they are NOT like you…
    None of the Brown’s are currently employed, but they are renting 4 homes in Las Vegas. The house in Lehi Utah has not been sold.

  12. What you just said is very interesting Walton. The Safety Net Committee is funded by the Utah Legislature. Although there is no actual money to help victims of polygamy (other than offering counseling by 2 social workers) the State of Utah has appropriated hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund the Safety Net Committee.

    Much of this money is used to educate social service providers so they will know how to treat the polygamists with respect. I think some of this money was even used to send representatives to Texas after the 2008 YFZ ranch raid so that they could teach the Texans how to treat the polygamists with kindness and respect. I think Mary Batchelor with Principle Voices of Polygamy accompanied the Safety Net Committee representatives on this Texas “polygamy ambassador” mission.

    The head of this committee recently said she couldn’t run the committee and do the necessary counseling at the same time. So, they decided to spend more Utah taxpayers’ dollars and hire a new administrative head of the Safety Net Committee and pay a 3rd salary (in addition to the 2 social worker counselors).

    I was also told that one of the social workers called the HOPE org the Monday after the Safety Net meeting (mentioned above) where the library book burning was discussed and asked “what can we do?” about the burned and stolen library books.

    How thoughtful!

    Anonymous said this on June 15, 2011 at 12:21 AM

    The only thing Pat merkely should be in charge of is putting the lids back on the paint cans. jmo

    Training social workers how to be respectful? How many years does this take? The raid was when? And the Safety Net has been active since when?

    During the safety net meeting prior to this last they had someone speaking about how badly those in the “cirlce” are being discriminated against. As if they are being picked on. The woman speaking also had said that she didn’t believe the stories about the “lost boys”. ??? That we all should look in the mirror and take a good look at ourselves.

    They talk in circles during these meetings. Sunrise in a henhouse, everyone is cackling and nothing is heard but the same cackling every time.

    Then top it off with the person in charge saying that “she really has seen the love and the goodside of Polygamy” and everyone needs to work harder at showing that it all works. This is said by a woman who has her head up her arse and gets paid a hefty fee when many are struggling with two and three jobs to help pay for such nonsense.

    And then there sits Paul Murphy at the head of the table with poo all over his face.The videos of the meeting are long and at times about as interesting as listening to Warren. BUT…if you do watch and listen to them you really should watch the whole thing.

    The one prior to this last is the one that had me all worked up about how the Safety Net appears to be more of a ProPolygamy meeting held inside of a school attended by members of the CPark, Allred group and I noticed a few Kingstons.
    Take a shovel.

    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/utah-attorney-general

  13. Patrick Dove from the gosanangelo has shown us some really awesome photos thru out. My favorites are of the ones with the guys with the white hats being in charge. 🙂

    Those guys have never once lied to us. Not once. Deputy George and Doran and the others are in my opinion my Safety Net. People need to see Law Enforcement officials doing what they said they would do. Protecting us. ALL of us.

    The last thing that makes me feel safe in any aspect is seeing an Attorney General stand up and say he isn’t going to enforce the law and has other agencies following his orders. Messed up more than anything I’ve ever seen.

    Here is another take on Warrens walk. http://conchovalleyhomepage.com/

    Now if we could only hear Antonie Dodsons song ” Hide your wives, hide your kids in the background”. 🙂

  14. I’ve watched those Safety Net Committtee meetings, and it seems more like a support group for the members than a group which meets to plan care for those who need assistance.

  15. To me the safety net is more of a “supporting polygamy” thing than a “help me get out of polygamy” thing.

    Mary B should just STFU soon.

    Walton, the guys in the white (straw) hats are really good guys. So are the Schleicher County Sheriff and Deputies.

  16. Obviously, BiB, medical bills for the children are the responsibility of the mother. Making new children is the responsibility of the father. Simple.

  17. Nice synopsis Betty. Of course Kody’s Mexican honeymoon and wedding reception were more important than paying the doctors who saved his daughter’s life by performing an emergency appendectomy.
    How silly of me to think otherwise.

  18. My husband went bankrupt before we started dating. He was running his business from his home and when he left his wife, she cleaned out the account where he was keeping money for quarterly tax payments on the business. The disruption of not having an office basically brought his business down and he got a job working direct for a local company. He ended up going bankrupt mostly because of IRS. He left his ex their paid for van and rode away on a bicycle. There was a little credit card and medical debt. This was in 1995 approximately.

    He also had child support payments for 5 children and he had three years of alimony payments in addition to the payments to the bankruptcy court. Their house was foreclosed and the unsecured debt was written off. He paid back the IRS in full, but did not have to pay interest and penalties. Any tax refund he got went to the debt. I had to file separately after we were married until the debt was paid off. But it did stop the IRS activities such as seizing your whole paycheck and your checking accounts. They even got confused now and then and tried to collect from me.

    He was unable to get ANY credit for more than 5 years. He could not rent an apartment without cosigner. He could not get a $500 over draft protection service on his credit card. He could not buy a car. He rented a room by the month rather than get a lease until he moved in with me. He ended up buying my 5 year old Corolla and I bought a new car while he made monthly payments to me. I helped him rebuild his credit by putting him joint on my credit cards after we were married. I could not put him on my mortgage, and the home that we live in was financed in my name only.

    I have a friend who is going bankrupt right now. His house is underwater and will probably be foreclosed. His bankruptcy lawyer told him to rent an apartment before the bankruptcy filing went through or he might not be able to do so later.

    Bankruptcy is no walk in the park.

  19. Your husband sounds like an honest individual who had bad luck, Betty, and he came out of bankruptcy only once by rebuilding his credit slowly and carefully. Kody and concubines are not as responsible, as someone in the family has filed for bankruptcy in 1997, 2005, and 2010. Most of the debt incurred by the family is for retail items, not medical expenses. I doubt that anyone would extend them credit for a mortgage, nor would they pass a credit check for high end rental properties that they are now living in… The Browns are clearly living above their means, and they continue to have children that they cannot afford – number 17 is on the way. In 2005, Kody had saved less than 2000 dollars for his retirement, and he had saved nothing to support the education of his many children.

  20. Interesting that Robyn Brown recently told the press than the unemployed Brown family was “living off Kody’s retirement savings.”
    According to his bankruptcy filing in 2005, he had less than 2000 dollars set aside for retirement. More lies from the Brown clan.

  21. In the courtroom yesterday 2 things stood out for me more than other stuff.

    1. Warren’s attorney asked the Prosecutor if they had given them the DNA results of the children who are by necessity a part of this case. He didn’t say “child” or “any children”, he said “the children”. That leads me to believe that there is truth to the fact that the 12 year old in question gave birth to a child. It is well documented that the one known as V.L. Keate had a daughter. She was photographed by National Geographic numerous times with her 2 year old daughter when she herself was barely 18. VL doesn’t have any other children or they would have been in the photographs also so to make a statement about “the children”, the attorney had to have been referring to a child by the then 12 year old M. Jessop.

    2. The prosecutor produced reports on hair sampling. I’m leaning toward this being the mysterious hair on the bed in the temple. You know, the bed Willie Jessop told everyone was for the gardner to use, even though it was on the 3rd floor in an all white room. He also said something about people using it to lie down on if they were overcome during a service. Unfortunately for him, there were no services in the temple. The meeting house is where the services took place. Most of the people on the YFZ have never set foot in that temple. That is well documented in Warren’s dictations.

    Something else I figured out by listening to the proceedings is that Jeff Kearney and Reagan Wyn are clueless about their client. I don’t think they realize the lengths Warren has gone to to maintain the “sweetness”, including the houses of hiding.

  22. Any updates on the mysterious audio tape referred to by Jon Krakauer ?

  23. JESSOP, RONALD RICHARD
    Birth Date: 08/02/70
    Address : 1085 N 200 E: PO BOX 841427, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    22:50:42 06/14/11 Andresen, Adam WCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-6A-1604(2)(A NO TAIL LIGHT/REFLECT CM WCJ7 40.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-1A-1303(1)ii EXPIRED REGISTRATION/ CM WCJ7 40.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-12A-303.2 NO PROOF OF INSURANCE BM WCJ7 400.00 [No Payments Made]
    53-3-227(2) DL SUSPEND/NON DRUG O CM WCJ7 300.00 [No Payments Made]
    WARRANT-CASH WARRANT-CASH ONLY BM WCJ7 487.00 [No Payments Made]

  24. There was reference to items obtained using a Nevada Search Warrant on the vehicle in which Warren was in when he was arrested. I’ve heard that they mysterious tape is part of what was taken out of that vehicle.

  25. Is Ronald Richard Jessop a “lost boy” or a current member ?

  26. How many names do they use? Meri Paul? Meri Barber? Meri Brown?

    Brown is legally married only to Meri Paul, but also calls three other women his spouses: Janelle, Christine and Robyn. The three stepchildren are from Robyn’s previous relationship.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/29/us/29brfs-REALITYTVSHO_BRF.html

    Interesting info some included is about MB and family ( reading older news sometimes gives clues to current stories) circles it’s all about circles

  27. Walton, the guys in the white (straw) hats are really good guys. So are the Schleicher County Sheriff and Deputies.

    Proud Texan said this on June 15, 2011 at 1:03 PM

    this actually made me cry. Not in a bad way but a good way. I know I’ve had some of you guys on my facebook page. I had recieved some really strange messages via the phone a year or two ago and I was sure I knew where they were coming from but no proof. So instead of putting any of my “friends” at risk.. I have tried to keep a distance so no one would get hurt. Never Ever would I want any one hurt. No one.

    I thought I was alone. I can’t even put into words how much I hate what all this has done to so many people. I truly wish there would be a “white hat” in everyones life. Proud Texan if you know those guys would you please tell them I say thank you.

    Now that I did the crying thing.. I think I need to take a day or so off from it all. Thank you sooo much Proud Texan. Seriously.

  28. Is her maiden name Meri Paul or Meri Barber ?

  29. At playbill.com, a new production based on flds:

    Stephen Karam-Nico Muhly Mormon Opera Dark Sisters Sets New York Dates

  30. Most “lost boys” aren’t still in Hildale. They are run out of town. Ronald is 30 years old. I’m guess he has at least 1 wife and some kids.

  31. Ronald Richard Jessop is the son of Joseph Smith Jessop II. He has at least 1 wife who is a Knudson.

  32. Walton

    (( hugs! ))

  33. Jeremy Johnson is getting extradited to Utah, he waved.

    It may take weeks regardless.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/52013841-79/johnson-utah-companies-card.html.csp

  34. Just a guess on my part, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Lyle probably has his taxes up-to-date and also probably the new gated facility.

  35. Ronald Richard Jessop was married to Rolene Knudsen..she was given to Dixon Kapsos before he was kicked out.I do not know who she is married to now,i think Dixon is back in.

  36. http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Mormons-blitz-Times-Square/TOVoDE5TFECpGrBUArY6uw.cspx

    🙄

  37. So she was reassigned before he was kicked out? Does that happen often?

  38. Willie the thug has some ‘slaining to do.

    In November 2008, Willie the thug Jessop tried to get a Temporary Restraining Order against Sam Brower. The judge laughed at Willie’s evidence about Sam’s harassment and denied the TRO.

    The problem is that this nuisance case cost Sam $16,000 in attorney fees and costs for his witnesses to sit in court all day. So Sam sued Willie for the $16,000.

    Neither Willie nor his attorney Rod Parker bothered to show up for the court hearing on Sam’s lawsuit, so Sam won the case by default.

    Now, Willie has to return to court on June 27th and provide his financial information so the judge can determine how Willie is going to pay Sam the $16,000 judgement.

    FIFTH DISTRICT COURT-ST GEORGE
    June 27, 2011
    Courtroom 3B Monday
    08:30 AM SUPPLEMENTAL ORDER 080501816 Miscellaneous
    JESSOP, WILLIAM R ATTY: BRADSHAW, JIM C
    PARKER, RODNEY R
    VS.
    BROWER, SAMUEL E ATTY: BISHOP, WILLARD R

    Read about the TRO hearing here –
    http://www.childbrides.org/control_ABC4_Sam_and_Willies_TRO_a_day_down_a_rabbit_hole.html

  39. THX Anon!!

    HA HA HA

    Thing is, Parker probably needed more than 16 large just to stay on the case, considering how much money they probably owe him.

    So in the long run, Willie was saving money.

    He just has to figure out how to pay it now.

    Got a feeling they wont be filing TRO’s on Sam again anytime soon.

    THAT backfired worse than a certain congressman’s peter tweeter.

  40. THX Anon!

    Whoa, those pesky FLDS make a lot of noise in court but they fold like a cheap suit!

  41. The sltrib has a new article about Jacquie Labaron–plead guilty!

  42. OMG I didn’t actually read the article before I posted that. Appears her deal means she’s only facing 5 years.

  43. Pretty light sentence for Jackie, figure the odds of giving her a real sentence were weak.

    Anyways, its good to see they got her.

  44. Willie having to appear in Washington County on the 27th pretty much means he can’t be in Schleicher County on that date for Merril and Wendell’s hearings.

  45. Here’s the Houston Chronicle story on Tarsa LeBaron

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/topstory/7613659.html

  46. Was willie the thug following the “amswer them nothing dictate” re Sam Brower’s suit.

    LOL!!

  47. “Mormons blitz Times Square” – and once again are associated with FLDS, but this time it seems to be deliberate on their part. Could be my misinterpretation, but I thought they abhorred any FLDS association.

    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Mormons-blitz-Times-Square/TOVoDE5TFECpGrBUArY6uw.cspx

  48. Anonymous there is an outside chance that Willie R. could just pay up and settle, not his strong suit. Jacuqueline LeBaron must have gotten a shortened sentence for having evaded Justice so successfully. We all know crime doesn’t pay and sometime the shortened sentence doesn’t exactly fit the Offense, either. She had to be extradited from Honduras? Fugitive flights seem to be an effective means to avoid Justice and then plead in time to avoid a trial and guilty verdict. Michael Emack is challenging his 7 year plea deal is JT LeBaron going to follow the same tactic?

    Chemist supposedly Willie was supposed to,”…clean up his act”, so I guess he may go fugitive before this Court date.

  49. The Utah Supreme Court punted to Federal Court

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52020902-78/court-trust-decision-utah.html.csp

  50. Given that there was discussion at the latest pretrial hearing for WSJ about hair sampling, I’m thinking that the lovely temple bed may make an appearance at this trial.

    My question to everyone is: HOW BIG SHOULD THE BLOWN UP PICTURE BE? AND SHOULD IT BE GLOSSY, LUSTER, OR MATTE?

    I’ll vote for double movie poster and glossy.

  51. I would recommend life-size poster. That way the jury can feel like they’re really there, perhaps see the famous “hair”, and be really disgusted. I’m also a big fan of jury field trips.

  52. Yeah, CAJim, especially in light of the fact that many of the other LeBarons got life.

  53. Warren wants to hire Jackies Attorney and he wants him NOW

  54. LMAO at the thought of a jury field trip to the YFZ. What’s your plan for getting past the locked gate 3C?

  55. Court order ought to do it?

  56. I just saw that J. Lebaron only received a sentence of 5 yrs. How absurd.

  57. Well, she did plead guilty and safe taxpayers a bunch of money on her trial.

  58. And what makes you think they would honor a Court Order Stamp? They haven’t exactly done so in the past.

    Remember, aside from Sexual Assault and Bigamy, Leroy Johnson Steed is also charged with tampering with evidence and destruction of evidence. They’ve probably already torched the bed if it wasn’t confiscated by law enforcement.

  59. Was willie the thug following the “amswer them nothing dictate” re Sam Brower’s suit.

    LOL!!

    chemist said this on June 16, 2011 at 2:23 PM

    Not really Chemist. Willie put on his own witnesses first to try to prove that there was trespassing and harassment on Willies property Willie’s own father said that he had never seen Sam Brower on the property!

    Willie’s own witnesses never convinced Judge Beacham there was any probable cause and that the entire case from the beginning was a bogus thugly harassment gesture.
    That is why Sam’s witnesses sat in the ante-room the entire day wasting their time waiting to be called by Sam’s defense team to tell the truth and the real story l

    Thus, WIllie the thug did now convince Judge Beacham that there was any credibility of the whole farce court case. Yet Sam had to pay for the court time, the attorney fees and the witness expenses to prove that it was all just a bunch of FLDS made-up BS.

    On Monday, June 27th, Willie the thug will get his day in court to negotiate payment for his part in the frivolous lawsuit and account for the actual money it cost Willie’s victim Sam.

    I’m telling you, you just can’t make this stuff up! And it will be FREE court entrainment. What fun!

  60. Anon at 1:08 AM. Thanks for the further explanation on Willie the thug’s situation. This flds story is like a never ending soap opera with many sub plots, interesting characters, etc. You are correct, no one could make this stuff up and it does provide Free entertainment.

  61. If Willie is under a “repent and get back in” it means he is trouble because he won’t have FLDS money to back him up – gee he might actually have to pay himself a real salary and pay up?
    My bet is he’ll do a Merril – there will never be a payment even if one is required and then Bower will have to spend even more money to get somebody to enforce the payment.

  62. I noticed that Warren Jeffs, in his latest perpwalk was wearing a pair of grey Crock slip-on shoes. I was struck by the irony . that the man who fed his flock a crock was now reduced to even walking in them. Willie can always sell his prize bull and pay for his Court judgment, yet another ironic cicumstance. So there we have it a real ‘Crock and Bull’ story.

    Does anyone know if Warren is being forced to appear because he was arrested in a fugitive status, I know that many courts force arrestees from open warrantsfugitive flights to undergo such treatment as a example to other would be fugitives?

  63. Warren is brought to court because he has the right to hear the charges against him. All defendants are bought to court for hearings, even if they are in jail. They always appear in jail clothes until it is in front of a jury and then in that instance they are allowed to wear street clothes. Warren won’t get to wear his suit and tie until July 27.

    This is the way it has been for all the court appearances made by the FLDS after they are convicted. The others wore regular street clothes to their pretrial stuff because they were out on bond. If they had missed a hearing date, it is a pretty good guess that bond would have been revoked and then they could have made subsequent appearances in jailhouse orange.

  64. “Well, she did plead guilty and safe taxpayers a bunch of money on her trial.”

    Proud Texan said this on June 16, 2011 at 11:03 PM

    PT,
    This woman will be out on the streets in 5 yrs – and she was made threatening statements that she wants to “blood atone” Irene Spencer for her apostasy.
    I don’t like it.

  65. Great care should be taken at the jail where Warren is being held to maintain a suicide watch on him, especially as his trial date nears. If not already obvious, he possesses a strong martyr complex. From private information, he has voiced in the past that the day he dies will be July 24th, no year given. Watch him and his visitors.

  66. BinB, I understood that one of the reasons for Jacqueline LeBaron’s 20 year fugitive pursuit was pursued was that she was believed to not only believe in the ‘blood atonement’ tenet but would enact it if given an oppotunity. Some FLDS apologists argue the same benigness toward current Warrenites that just because they espouse a belief in ‘blood atonement’ is not proof that they will enact such a deed. Huh? if these FLDS apologists understand that this ‘blood atonement’ tenet has been enacted in the past then there is definitely a degree of credibility that they would enact it at anytime and without any warning. These FLDS apologists are the same group who claimed that Prophet Jeffs celestial sealings to some minor ‘Child Brides’ was without a conjugal act. Warren’s dictations prove that he was very clear before ministering to celestial sealings or marrying himself that the ‘Child Bride’ was to be counseled to,”Get close”(that’s FLDS speak for the sex act).

    Today, I can’t find any FLDS apologists that still espouse the ‘sex free’ celestial sealing exists, which would defeat the very reason to celestial seal a ‘Child Bride’ in the first case! If a celestial sealment wasn’t sexually consummated, then the wedlock was never enacted.

  67. … and after they free Ms. LeBaron in five years, Irene Spencer will never have another peaceful night’s sleep… Irene will live in fear for the rest of her life….

  68. I see BiB, I didn’t realize about the threats to Irene Spencer. Hopefully Ms. LeBaron will screw up in prison and get more time.

  69. Anon @ 9:58, that date you gave is the day before Warren’s Texas trial starts. What is your source?

  70. July 24 is Utah Pioneer day, when the LDS pioneers first entered Salt lake valley.

    Outside Utah I dont think peeps celebrate it, though its still significant to fundamentalists perhaps.

    Since they still dress up like cowboys and pioneer wemen and all.

  71. “that date you gave is the day before Warren’s Texas trial starts.”
    Exactly!

    “What is your source?”
    Former FLDS

    Also of note, Joseph Smith was martyred on June 27, 1844. Just saying… be alert.

  72. What association is there (if any) between blood atonement and Pioneer Day ? I remember Kathy Jo Nicholson reporting an association between the two.

  73. Can somebody give me a source on recent blood atonement threats made by Tarsa LeBaron?

  74. Dang, if he is able to kill himself before the trial we will never find out what evidence was in the Red Escalade.

    I do hope the white hats can make sure he makes it to trial. He needs to rot in jail before he rots in hell.

  75. TC,
    I don’t know of any recent blood atonement threats made by Ms. LeBaron, but Irene Spencer made a statement to the press at the time of her capture to the effect that she would finally rest peacefully at night knowing that LeBaron was in jail, because Irene feared blood atonement.

  76. The Lafferty’s were blood atoned on Pioneer Day 1984.

  77. Thanks, BIB, I was worried there had been recent threats and was shocked.

  78. “The LDS Church disavows any connection to blood atonement, says spokesman Scott Trotter.” (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/24/firing-squad-sparks-talk_n_587836.html)

    I did not know that the mainstream church disavows blood atonement. I was taught the doctrine of blood atonement in the mainstream church in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

    Chemist, or anybody know?

  79. Watergirl, of course you’ve hit the nail on the head. That’s the whole reason he would take himself out before his trial, so his sheeple can never find out the damning evidence. He’s basically being backed into a corner. He’s paranoid, narcissistic and a whole lot of other ics, isms and oids. Not too sure he’ll just quietly accept the fate that he’s close to facing in a courtroom.

    And we’ll be paying the pied piper from hell if the wheels of justice hit a pothole and screw the whole mess up on some legal technicality. Reference the overturned Utah conviction, eh?

  80. If Warren “takes himself out” before the trial, the stuff can just be unsealed and shown for what it is. They won’t hide it away.

  81. Born In Brooklyn: “What association is there (if any) between blood atonement and Pioneer Day ? I remember Kathy Jo Nicholson reporting an association between the two.”
    Never heard of an association between those two factors.

    Third Cousin: “I did not know that the mainstream church disavows blood atonement.”
    If that’s what they’re saying now I wonder how they explain Brigham Young’s (and others’) teaching it and the church teaching it up through the early ’80s as you say.
    I often wonder if there isn’t a strong dichotomy between what they say to the public/press – even their congregations – and what they privately believe and talk about in their vaulted positions. But whatever. The church is well-known for changing its canon fodder to fit into changing societal norms.

  82. Ad hoc,

    Something sticks in my mind about pioneer day and some of the alleged blood atonements that took place before the turn of the century during the scary reformation period. I’ll let you all know if I ferret that out. Maybe I’m just thinking of the Lafferty situation.

  83. Wow. I had never noticed the murder date, but my great great great grandmother’s brother, Gabriel Cotton, apostatized with his family and moved to big cottonwood canyon. He and two oldest sons were murdered by neighbors in what some termed a “feud” and others whispered blood atonement justification. They were apparently killed on pioneer day July 24, 1873. Gabriel had apparently been causing a number of problems for the saints in terms of taunting folks and holding up supply shipments.

    http://hickmansfamily.homestead.com/files/ButchCott.htm

    Yow.

  84. I had heard of the term “blood atonement”, but have never heard it taught as a church doctrine or discussed in a church meeting. I found the following statement in the Deseret News dated as shown.

    Published: Thursday, June 17, 2010

    “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released this statement Wednesday:

    In the mid-19th century, when rhetorical, emotional oratory was common, some church members and leaders used strong language that included notions of people making restitution for their sins by giving up their own lives.

    However, so-called “blood atonement,” by which individuals would be required to shed their own blood to pay for their sins, is not a doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We believe in and teach the infinite and all-encompassing atonement of Jesus Christ, which makes forgiveness of sin and salvation possible for all people”

  85. Thanks, chemist.

    I failed to make clear that we were not taught to go out and perform blood atonement on our neighbors or anything, but that we were taught that there are some sins so grave that Christ’s death cannot suffice and that the only recourse is to have your blood spilled on the ground.

    There was an interesting 1994 case here in Idaho wherein a mormon child murderer was supposedly encouraged by mormon church leaders to either request or fail to fight the death penalty so he could have blood atonement fulfilled. Here is the Deseret News report:

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yvRLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Ju0DAAAAIBAJ&dq=blood%20atonement%20idaho&pg=6780%2C1127205

  86. 3C: Yes, that is also what I had heard about blood atonement, but from an inactiive LDS friend.

  87. Willie the thug Jessop tried to get a Temporary Restraining Order against Sam… this nuisance case cost Sam $16,000 in attorney fees and costs for his witnesses to sit in court all day. Willie’s own father said that he had never seen Sam Brower on the property! So Sam sued Willie for the $16,000. Willie is going to pay Sam the $16,000 judgement.
    Willie really is an idiot….! At least his father didn’t lie to save his sorry @$$!

    Sorry, but just catching up now that I’m home, again.

  88. Chemist, I feel sorry that the tenets held in faith by the FLDS Church you feel a need to disavow as tenets held by the LDS Church. I assure that I know that and didn’t want to cast any doubt on you or your faith. There are alot of items that divide the FLDS Church from the LDS Church. The five major differences are: 1. Polygamy, 2. United Order, 3. Adam-God teaching, 4. Curse of Cain/Ham, 5. ‘Blood Atonement’ . Additionally, for well over 100 years the fundamentalists have shown their commitment to preserving these tenets, from the !952 Short Creek Raid up through today’s YFZ Ranch Rescue. Common roots from the same tree but two seperate branchs in growth.

  89. Welcome home mc199, just in time for the fun and games.

  90. CAJim: Thanks for your remarks. Probably most people who are familiar with the LDS and the mormon fundamental groups are aware of the differences in their basic tenets. When there seems to be a real question about it, I like to post the official LDS belief on it.

  91. In the following video, Kathy Jo Nicholson describes the link between blood atonement and Pioneer Day

    http://www.whatloveisthis.tv/episodes/2009/ep239.htm

  92. Thanks BiB.

  93. Polygamous youth talent show raises charity funds
    Article can be found here: http://www.fox13now.com/news/local/kstu-polygamous-youth-talent-show,0,1891930.story

    The article says: A talent show featuring youth from Utah’s polygamous community has generated an $1,800 donation to a statewide domestic violence hotline.

    Sponsored by an equal rights committee of the polygamy advocacy group Principle Voices, the October talent night featured more than 20 vocalists and musicians. Nearly all were kids.

    Principle Voices co-founder Anne Wilde says the event was designed as a service project for youth. Nearly all of Utah’s polygamous sects were represented. About 250 attended the performance which was held in a private home.

    The funds generated were donated to Linkline, a 24-hour domestic violence hotline run by the nonprofit Utah Domestic Violence Council.

    Wilde says Linkline has suffered under state budget cuts. The hotline connects callers with counseling, shelters and other services.

    *******
    Sorry if I’m not allowed to post this much of an article. Not sure what the rule is.

  94. I also know that the Safety Net did not get more money to hire the new safety net coordinator. Pat merkley’s job was divided into two jobs and both are part time when she used to be full time. I’m just an avid polygamy news junkie. I read everything and pay attention to details. Don’t like confusion. I think it’s fair to be accurate, even when things don’t seem black and white, or all bad or all good, or don’t support my position, whatever.

  95. Which community does the Safety Net Committee serve ? If they are expected to serve all the polygamists in Utah, they are woefully understaffed with only two social workers.

  96. Shurtleff has gotten himself in hot water, seems there are some pics of him with hoodlum bling belonging to Jeremy Johnson

    Lambo, private jet, chopper, Shurtleff grinning! see pics

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/52029190-90/johnson-shurtleff-2009-works.html.csp?page=2#disqus_thread

  97. some info on blood atonement: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mountainmeadows/atonement.html

    Info on the Curse of Cain: http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/curseofcain_part1.htm

    And a video with Lora E. Tom when she spoke at the Mountain Meadows Massacre Memorial keep in mind that the Paiutes were blamed for the Massacre

    http://wn.com/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre_Commemoration

    One of the things that Lora Tom mentions is that what has kept so many silent for so long is Fear but the time has come to speak out

    When Willie and crew want to stand up and talk about Sacred Lands/cows/rocks little respect has been shown to others and their beliefs. Willie and Crew speak of being pushed and chased out of their homes because of their beliefs etc. they had no problem chasing others out because of the color of their skin

    FLDS Texas moderator I am leaving my e-mail here for Stamp would you mind passing it along? Thanks bunches.

  98. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/18/high-court-refuses-to-hear-ark-evangelist-appeal/
    High Court Refuses to Hear Ark. Evangelist Appeal
    Published June 18, 2011 | Associated Press

    An attorney for an evangelist convicted of taking young girls across state lines for sex said Saturday that he will continue working to get Tony Alamo’s sentence reduced or his conviction overturned despite the U.S. Supreme Court refusal to hear an appeal.
    Alamo, who was convicted in 2009 of taking five girls he had married across state lines for sex, was sentenced to 175 years in federal prison and ordered to pay each victim $500,000 and was fined $250,000.
    The 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied his appeal earlier this year and defense attorney John Wesley Hall appealed that ruling to the Supreme Court.
    The court’s refusal to hear the case upholds the lower court ruling, according to U.S. Attorney Connor Eldridge.
    The high court’s decision not to hear the case was made Monday, according to its website. Hall said he learned of the court’s decision, first reported by the Texarkana Gazette, in a letter he received Thursday.
    Hall said Saturday that the high court has said that its denial to hear any case is not a reflection of the court’s view of the merits of the case.
    “You can file a post-conviction petition, to attack the conviction on some denial of rights during the process. Generally, it falls to ineffective counsel at trial,” said Hall, who did not represent Alamo during the 2009 trial.
    Hall said he has up to a year to submit a filing that would be made in U.S. District Court for the Western District of Arkansas in Texarkana, where the trial was held.
    Hall said he has not spoken to Alamo, who was born Bernie Lazar Hoffman.
    Eldridge said Saturday that he is as pleased as he was when the jury returned with a guilty verdict.
    “Of course, our office feels there is no legal or factual basis to overturn the jury verdict,” Eldridge said. “The jury heard the testimony in this case and found Mr. Alamo guilty.
    “As we said all along, Mr. Alamo’s conduct took a terrible tragic toll on the lives of his victims. At the end of the day he was certainly held accountable by the jury’s verdict.”
    Eldridge said his office is also working to collect the money that Alamo was ordered to pay the victims and the fine.

  99. http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/inside-the-order-one-mormon-cults-secret-empire-20110615?page=1

    damn. this is messed up, I don’t think I saw anything like this while down in the crick.

  100. Yehaa
    Thanks for the find…..
    Very similar to many things we have read about FLDS –

    some I kind of wonder about “urban legends” – “Decapitating Cows”

    The rest seems pretty similar: using boy labor, indoctrinating and marrying off young girls, using girls as office labor, shipping boys and girls off for retraining….etc.

  101. You’re right HHG, a lot of it is the same. Yehaaa, some of the stuff was going on while you were there. Girls were married off early, boys forced to work at a young age.

  102. Yes, thank you for the interesting read. Many of the abuses in polygamous societies are due to the numbers problem. There are about an equal number of boy and girl babies. If many men in those societies have 3-10 wives there will be a shortage of women and a surplus of men. This leads to underage marriage and to men being lost boys or being sent off to work away from the rest of the group. It also leads to the older male leaders controlling who marries whom. Unless they practice male infanticide or selectively recruit only women from outside the group, I see no way for them to get around the numbers problem.

  103. The interesting part of that story – thanks btw yeehaa! – is the lost boys stole the gold and silver and it didnt make a big splash on the news.

    I do recall reading one or two articles, but am not sure how much of the loot was recovered. They just took it out in dufflebags in broad daylight.

    ksl article at the time, with pics of the boys

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6013563

  104. So the fence took some of the rare gold 20 dollar pieces to a bank and got – 20 dollars apiece for them.

    Errrrr ooops, today they are worth 1300 apiece, not to mention the numismatic value.

    easy come, easy go!

  105. Researchers say that when 10% of the population of a community is polygamous that the age of marriage begins to plummet and child brides are taken. That data is from one of the sociologists who testified in the Canadian Reference Case.

  106. I’m surprised it only takes 10%
    That is interesting

  107. It appears that some gold enthusiasts wanted to make money, and they wanted government help in this venture. In fact, according to news stories, Craig Franco is launching a depository company that will issue a debit card to customers who deposit their gold and silver coins.

    http://blogs.standard.net/economics-etc/2011/06/03/folly-in-using-gold-and-silver-as-currency-in-utah/

  108. HHG,
    That is the minimum percentage to start to see the changes and to start to the age of marriage plummet.

  109. It’s sad enough having to explain to an adult why the gold standard is dumb, but having to explain that to a state legislature is downright scary. Don’t these people go to school, take economics, study history????

  110. I forgot to say that at Warren’s pretrial hearing he elected to receive sentence by the jury and also put in a request for probation to be considered. It was all I could do not to burst out laughing in the courtroom at the probation request.

  111. BARLOW, MARCEL LEE
    Birth Date: 11/10/82
    Address : 65 S 400 W, LaVerkin, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    11:53:10 06/17/11 New, Nathan WCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    COMMITMENT COMMITMENT-COURT ORDE CM WCJ7 [No Payments Made]

  112. Probation! HA!!! That is funny!

  113. One of the projects I am working on has me researching the history of silver mining in Europe,which has the side light of issues related to monetary supply – where the money is either gold or silver and depends upon the supply of gold or silver and the loss of gold and silver. Pretty cyclical debasement of the coins whenever the natural metal loss by hoarding, cutting into pieces, or simple wear and tear – estimated 50 years to lose half the coins – so as the money supply gets tight then debasement begins setting off inflationary cycles.

    Yeah – I have wondered why our legislative bodies seem to be pretty ill informed…

  114. Here’s a parody article on the subject of none other than Warren Jeffs, it’s a bit off color but is worth a laugh at Warren’s expense:

    http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Warren_Jeffs

  115. I would like help researching the parents of Jenielle Tew, Kody Brown’s mother,
    Robyn- was her last name Sullivan or Marck? Who are her parents? Also, Janelle Schriever’s parents names. I would appreciate any help. I’m trying to make a Brown family tree and show the connections. You can private email me if you don’t want to post it here.

  116. HA the dickipedia link is a Huffpo comedy, Warren is one of an elite group of 100 or so they have decided are worthy of being so named.

    And probation!? Yeah, well how about we put him on probation on the moon?

    That would work!

  117. Joke: If Warren does kill himself on Pioneer day, will he be preforming blood atonement on himself?

  118. I can try to help with the Tew family. Kody’s maternal grandmother is an Allred. They are descendants of William Moore Allred and Orissa Angela Bates from remote Bear Lake County, Idaho.

  119. Is that the Montpelier ID area?

  120. Thanks! I got Kody’s genealogy down, I need Meri’s Mother’s Parents- Bonnie J. Ahlostrom’s parents.
    and Robyn’s parents.
    That would help!

  121. Proud Texan said:
    An attorney for an evangelist convicted of taking young girls across state lines for sex said Saturday that he will continue working to get Tony Alamo’s sentence reduced or his conviction overturned despite the U.S. Supreme Court refusal to hear an appeal.

    PT, is this Bill Medvecky’s attorney friend? HEE HEE

  122. I was reading the bankruptcy filings of Kody Brown’s “wives”. I find it sad that Janelle’s listing of the debts she owed mentioned Lane Bryant stores. I remember reading in some (tabloid?) news article that his latest conquest – skinny Robyn – had a penchant for shopping at Victoria’s Secret.

    This is not a bashing of thin vs not so thin women. I just found it moving and sad. To me it sounds like these women go into personal debt on their credit cards trying to dress and look good for the man they love. Is it because of a constant a competition among the other “wives” in the family for his attention?

    Did these women feel free to wear a dirty tee shirt or tattered pants while they worked or relaxed around the house? Maybe now that the 4 “wives” have separate homes they’ll feel comfortable to do just this!

  123. It’s sad enough having to explain to an adult why the gold standard is dumb, but having to explain that to a state legislature is downright scary. Don’t these people go to school, take economics, study history????

    Betty said this on June 19, 2011 at 4:44 PM

    Betty, Stamp calls them Utards for a reason. The new state legalization of gold and silver coins as currency is one of these reasons.

    Also the recently retired nut-case state Legislator Chris Buttars, who tried to do away with the 12th grade in Utah high schools, is another reason.

    Utah… Life FUBAR

  124. A Texan, the dickipedia article is hysterical. CAJim’s ‘Crock and Bull’ story goes so well with the new ‘Dick’ revelations you added today. Thanks for sharing.

  125. I would like help researching the parents of Jenielle Tew, Kody Brown’s mother,
    Robyn- was her last name Sullivan or Marck? Who are her parents? Also, Janelle Schriever’s parents names. I would appreciate any help. I’m trying to make a Brown family tree and show the connections. You can private email me if you don’t want to post it here.

    polyissowrong22 said this on June 20, 2011 at 11:33 AM

    NOOOO don’t do private emailing on this. We all want to know, too !!!!

  126. WOW Third Cousin, your ancestry is really impressive! First, Price Johnson, then a few more names thrown out there (probably MMM people that I can’t remember, but was really impressed with) and now ‘Wild Bill’ Hickman – Joseph Smith’s and Brigham Young’s Hitman (err Avenging Angel).

    You are really well-connected in this stuff. I would love to meet you and shake your hand. What fun stories you must hear at family reunions!

  127. Don’t forget Orrin Porter (O.P./Port) Rockwell as a death angel to mention. O.P. could match up with Bill Hickman and surpass him in many ways. Rockwell dates back to the Prophet Smith and his legend is equally as impressive with Hickman. He kept his standing in the church and was never questioned as to his fealty/loyalty.

  128. Anon 10:36, I had no idea HIckman who killed great uncle was somebody famous/infamous. Embarrassingly, I don’t know anything about Wild Bill. Please tell me what you know. Why was he “wild”? I swear sometimes the only reason I get this stuff is ancestors poking and prodding and won’t let me sleep.

  129. Re: Browns/Allreds etc. I actually did consider asking for a private email – I think I know most of those still in danger but I can’t know for sure.

  130. Didn’t mean know them personally but know their names.

  131. Yes, Chaps, Montpelier area, also Bern, Soda Springs, and general Caribou County.

  132. Third Cousin, I don’t have a lot of time this morning to tell you about “Wild Bill”. But you do need to find out more about him. He was like the Mark Hofmann of his time.

    Here are a couple of links –
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Bill_Hickman
    http://1857massacre.com/MMM/wild_bill_hickman.htm

    I have read that book mentioned in the second link – “Wild Bill” Hickman and the Mormon Frontier by Hope Hilton. I have not his autobiography edited by J.H. Beadle.

  133. In “Wild Bill” Hickman you have “Blood Atonement” by the “Danites”, plus he was called Brigham Young’s “Destroying Angel”.

    A lot of early Mormon craziness is all wrapped up in “Wild Bill” Hickman and Porter Rockwell, as CAJim mentioned.

    No, you can’t make this stuff up!
    http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/wildbill.shtml

  134. Wasn’t this Sportsman’s Fast Cash Pawnshop one of the many owned by the Kingstons?

    This article doesn’t say so, but I think I remember reading that after the Trolley Square massacre happened.

    High court denies pawnshop’s request to dismiss Trolley suit

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52042009-78/talovic-gun-court-pawnshop.html.csp

  135. More Utah goofiness. How can this guy be charged with “possession of a controlled substance with intent to distribute” when there was no acid on the paper?

    “After the man was arrested, he admitted he was selling pieces of plain paper wrapped in foil and claiming they were hits of LSD.”

    Man charged with two felonies in fake-LSD case

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52043967-78/lsd-police-charged-felonies.html.csp

  136. Wouldnt fake LSD be like a fake fundy marriage?

    They both hope to put you in a state of ecstasy, but both fail miserably.

  137. Chaps, paper that has nothing on it will just give the user a sense of disappointment as time ticked on and nothing happened. Seems like the fake marriages last longer, effect more people and a huge bummer.

  138. Doesnt Warren have 80 wives holding 80 pages of empty paper?

    Yeah, he’s got a whole flock of bummed wives. Bet they have plans tho.

  139. In “Wild Bill” Hickman you have “Blood Atonement” by the “Danites”, plus he was called Brigham Young’s “Destroying Angel”.
    A lot of early Mormon craziness is all wrapped up in “Wild Bill” Hickman and Porter Rockwell, as CAJim mentioned.
    No, you can’t make this stuff up!
    http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/wildbill.shtml
    Anonymous said this on June 21, 2011 at 9:01 AM

    Interesting website, it appears it is run by a LDS person who states he was a former church bishop, returned missionary and still active in church. Here’s the home page of Jeff Lindsey:
    http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml

    He recommends this site also, from the BBC in the UK:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/mormon/

    The British perspective is interesting IMO.

  140. I just love how Chaps and Betty run with things! Comparing the fake LSD papers to the fake FLDS papers. Too funny!

  141. LOL, Chaps, they are still waiting to get off, I bet!

  142. He he

    Yeah, whats worse, FAKE FLDS papers or FAKE LSD papers ~ ? ~ and is there really any difference?

  143. This may be where the belief that a man must have a minimum of 3 wives to get to the Celestial Kingdom –
    ” Melba Allred provided further details: “On Thanksgiving Day of 1950, we had a big feast [with] Brother Joseph [Musser]… Joseph arose and said: ‘Brother Lorin C. Woolley told us that a man who could get and keep seven wives in full harmony with him was entitled to a seat in the highest Priesthood Council on earth, and also would be a King and a God. He said that a man with five wives in harmony would be entitled to be a prince and to be President of the Church, and a man with three wives so in harmony was entitled to the fullness of exaltation.’[6] You have seven wives in full harmony (he said to Rulon) and because of this and other qualifications, you are entitled to the blessings promised.”[7] Musser was attempting to justify his ordination of Rulon as his successor by noting that Rulon “qualified” because of his then seven wives.[8]”

    http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/ChartLinks/1952PriesthoodCouncilSplit.htm

  144. Does anyone here have an account with Lexology and can tell us what this article is specifically about?

    The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints v. The Honorable Denise P. Lindberg, Third District Court Judge, 2010 Utah LEXIS 115 (August 27, 2010)

    McGuireWoods LLP
    Dana G. Fitzsimons Jr and Meghan L. Gehr
    USA
    June 15 2011

    http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=f4b7b825-27e0-46f2-8457-589d52be1033

  145. This woman mentioned in the Rolling Stone article is one of the Kingston representatives for the Safety Net Committee –

    Luke and Scott often visited the home of one of their aunts, Rachel Young. Everyone in the Order knew that she controlled the purse strings for the operation — but few were aware that she was sitting on a hidden stash of silver. “Only the inner circle knew the hoard even existed,” says Christian Kingston, a former Order member. “You had to be, like, a son of the prophet to know where it was.”

    On February 26th, 2009, the Salt Lake County Sheriff’s Office got a call of suspicious activity in the foothills above the city. Two teenage boys had been spotted entering Rachel Young’s home. They had sped off in a Honda sedan. When Rachel Young, a stern and humorless woman, got home, she discovered that several crates of silver in her basement had been pried open — whoever had robbed the place had clearly been in a hurry and had left with only a small fraction of her silver. She called her sister-in-law Patty Kingston, who lived across town. “You better check on your gold,” Young told her.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/inside-the-order-one-mormon-cults-secret-empire-20110615?page=4

  146. I just noticed that Sons of Perdition will be on the OWN channel at 8pm Pac time. I missed it the first go-round. So if anyone else did too, here’s another chance.. I presume it’s airing in different time zones at the same time.

  147. mc, I think that’s right, it’s on at the same time all over, just depends what timezone you are in.

  148. http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/
    You may use a “name” under comments under Comments by hitting Name/URL – you don’t need a URL, just pick a name.

  149. Poly,
    Was anyone able to help you with the family tree question you asked ?

  150. Boots has posted the LeBaron plea deal document on her Scrbd account.

  151. (Sorry actually Ben Winslow provided that document.)

  152. I am not sure who has the latest Sister Wives blog but here is some info you might find interesting for your post concerning the differences in the cults.

    http://rebeccakimbel.com/fldsabedsexpreditors.html

    and an interview with Roger Kunz : http://youtu.be/ok7CmuNZIYY

    You might want to dig a little deeper concerning the differences you’ve listed.

  153. and not to leave out CPark and their stand on dressing better than the flds and giving their kids the choice: http://youtu.be/RSs-ub1VWm8 Youth Polygamy Interview 1

  154. Here is a documentary/reality film series done by National Geographic about the Amish.

    http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/amish-on-break-6449/Overview

    Tastefully done imo

    If the scammers of Sister wives truly wanted to share their lifestyle they shouldn’t have started out by being so decietful and continued with the lies and BS. From what I know about Kody and Co. irriatates me to no end. I view Kody and Co. as a bunch of whiney babies that only show me that those that are practicing polygamy today are selfish and full of hmm let’s just say ego.

    Time magazine did a piece about the Allred group and displayed a lot of photos. If you look back on some of that history you will see that many of those women worked very hard to support their families.

  155. Walton, the Centennial Parkers may not be as extreme as the FLDS, but they still believe in (and practice) Placement (arranged) marriages and there has been some pressure for girls to “turn themselves in for marriage” while they are still 17-years-old so they’ll be ready to go when they turn 18.

    The girls I know from that group aren’t allowed to date and they have their “husband” selected for them. No choice there, in my opinion!

    As one of their former members likes to say, the CParkers and the FLDS are “cut from the same cloth”.

  156. Anon. I know. the young girl said she would be ready for marriage when the priesthood holder tells her so. And she would be happy with whomever was chosen. Then a young man said basically the same thing.

    The only difference for some is the style of the clothing and from what I understand those from Cpark aren’t pushing the underage marriages.

    One of the teachers interviewed interviewed has a 2nd wife whom I think was his student at one time.

    The AUB had purchased over 900 acres in Utah. Do you think that they would have done such a large purchase if they thought for a minute that the law was really going to do anything?

    The large purchase was in the news. Despite Shurtleffs – I didn’t know Jeremy Johnson was being investigated by his office- he can not say the same about all this stuff.

    When I say that the women of the past have worked hard concerning their lifestyles – I mean they worked HARD. When Kody and Co. are seen on these talk shows complaining it makes me think of some of his ancestors. Why he or anyone else think this is ok is beyond me.

    Look at how hard Mr. Kunz worked to protect himself and his family. He wanted so much more for his family.

  157. http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=2868784&page=1 Polygamists Practice Big Love In Arizona

    But dating is prohibited by the church; instead Helen prays and consults with her parents and church leaders. “My goal is to do my father’s will, not what I necessarily would like to do,” she says.

  158. Jermy Johnson was caught with a wad of cash and one way ticket out of the US, and now the IRS wants him for 2.6 million.

    Making bail might be tough

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/52056154-79/johnson-fraud-attorney-charge.html.csp?page=2

  159. Well, the mystery of Brooke Adams is out, it seems she took a leave of absence to help a polygamist family write a book.

    We all know, however, these “pro polygamy” books are a bad script to shop at publishers. She didnt offer any word on what who when or why so I am gonna guess its a “pass, thank you”

    Anyway, she put up the blog post, got two comments and then shut it again.

    http://www.tribblogs.com/polygamyfile/2011/05/the-last-post-3/#comment-47767

  160. Note to Brooke Adams:

    For every polygamist dream come true, there are 50 nightmares.

    Good luck!

  161. I pre-ordered the book Brooke assisted with entitled “Love Times Three”…turns up that the book is about the Darger family. If you will recall, Alina Darger is one of the Mormon fundamentalist women who testified for the Canadian Reference Case on polygamy. Alina Darger testified that polygamy should be decriminalized so that her son could play professional sports without fear. She was confronted by the AGBC with the fact that she already had one son who was playing professional sports – apparently he wasn’t too afraid, as he had previously announced to the press that he was born into a polygamous family – so he was hardly hiding.

  162. I wonder if the AGBC also knew about the lengths to which they would go to decriminalize polygamy. Polygamy has rarely been about two consenting adults. Time and time again I’ve seen these adults use their kids to justify breaking the laws and lie to people to gain sympathy for their actions.

    The whole sister act is not normal. I don’t care what they say.

    Do you guys remember Irene Spencer? What a beautiful lady she is. She has my mothers eyes. You should read her book and listen to her on the many videos on you tube.

    If the Dargers couldn’t be truthful and forthcoming during a trial – what else are they covering up. Same old s***.

    Why decriminalize? They already have been living the life with out being legally married. So they don’t have to hide? They didn’t have to hide. The only case that I know of that was brought to court was the Tom Green case.

    Dargers were “above” the FLDS. They didn’t dress the part. They didn’t believe in underage marriages blah blah blah. Did I mention they all love each other. more blah blah blah. And they lie. And they lie some more. And then they use the kids to lie even a bigger lie.

    I don’t like liars. And I don’t like it when people use their kids to justify their lying and selfish ways.

    Some say that they can’t tell the truth because of fear of being arrested, discriminated against etc. funny that is how it is with most law-breakers. Go into your boss on a Friday morning and tell him your growing a pot farm and by Friday noon you just might be fired.

    or tell your neighbor that his taxes might be going up because you’ve decided to bring in your 4 other wives and the 20+ kids into the system and you might see a a disgusted look on his face.

    I am thinking that this would be a great time and place for people to start telling the truth.

  163. YES, Rico 50 nightmares for every temporarily satisfied practicing polygamist. Brooke Adams last posting is not only a few days late and more than a dollar short but it displays her continuing attempt to present the abnormal and perverted as ordinary and an acceptable lifestyle. Now that she has finally run her pirate’s ‘Jolly Roger’ flag over her real heart and closely held warped values, she hasn’t revealed anything more than her uncommon viewpoint of trying to present polygyny in a healthy light. A daunting task even Brooke can now attest but using ‘Gordos’ comment as some stellar vindication of her blogs misguded and often fantasyland reportage. Ignored by her fellow journalists for any journalistic awards for any of her ho-hum news coverage, she has, again, attempted to place her ineptness into a positive framework that doesn’t acknowledge her cataclysmic failure to view domestic abuse, child welfare and fundamentalist Mormonism as an inherently criminal practice that needs forceful legal enforcement to combat and end it’s practices.

    I had the sad experience of having been,’taken out to the wood shed’ by Brooke and beaten into submission for questioning her reporting on BC Canadian schooling. Then during the Canadian reference case a testimony given by Truman Oler confirmed the wholly inadequate education that he had been given and where was Brooke Adams to correct/answer for the truth and facts or corrections of her mistaken reporting? I predict this book will be a flop based solely upon the failed balanced and inaccurate perspectives that I read from Brooke Adams for over two-three years of poor journalistic efforts.

  164. Do you guys remember when Sister Wives first announced their show? HUGE wave of publicity followed by interviews from those on tv. Ellen, Joy B. Oprah, morning talk shows TMZ . And all the lawyers who also played a role in their “coming out”.

    With each and every appearance not only was there less said from the Browns (as they kept repeating the same lines over and over just in a different setting but sometimes with a different out fit on) not only did they expose themselves more and more about their “alleged lifestyle” – the lack of questioning by the “reporters” asking the questions said more than the “Browns”.

    So each time the “Browns” gained a little ground those that also played roles in the “scam” lost ground concerning the trust of the viewer.

    I use to enjoy watching JoyB. until I had seen her “interview” with the Browns. After that I thought why? why waste the time?

    Different stores would run these huge ads that would draw in the customers. thing was the ad was less than truthful or they were out of what they were advertising. Did it time and time again. Soon the customers quit going there.

    Yeah. I’d say it’s time for some truth telling. I’ve given the mom look many a times already.

  165. 24 divided by 3 is 8. These women AVERAGED 8 children each. I just can’t wrap my mind around any one doing that voluntarily.

  166. For anyone interested in a sample of Brooke Adams fantasy reportage, I would suggest reading her review, of a book as of then yet unwritten, that Adams encouraged everyone to read once it was published by Betty Jane Jessop. Well after Brooke’s glowing reiview of a couple of rough draft chapters of a none existant book, we are still awaiting the publishing and printing of the reviewed book by Brooke Adams. Just one of the more stranger reporting gaffs by the ‘Polygamy Page’ sage reporter.

    Since Merril Jessop has fallen into epostasy status and no longer a FLDS bishop in good standing, I guess the Betty expose` book about the real FLDS Church has been put on permanent hiatus, somewhat like Brooke, herself. Carolyn Jessop on the other hand has published yet another well received sequel book to her original “Escaped”.
    Does anyone know the sequel book’s title?

  167. …Ah, Yes the sequel was “Triumph” both spectacular reads. Maybe Brooke Adams can find the time to enjoy two real non-fiction stories about the real polygyny world.

  168. HA HA

    Broke went from stealth apologist to formal apologist.

    Hey, Brooke, whats next!? The joys of smoking 7 gram rocks?

  169. I’m still waiting for Betty’s book. Remember, Maggie was supposed to be helping her. That should be a thrilling read. Maggie who gets booted from husband to husband and little Betty Jane.

    Wonder if either of them is still at the ranch given that Betty’s father is at the Creek and Maggie’s 2nd husband was exed and is probably at the Creek himself.

  170. Leroy Jessop has finally filed his Petition for Discretionary Review with the Court of Criminal Appeals on the subject of his indigency. Guess he just loves those slap downs. Wonder if Daniel Hurley is still helping him so he can be “pro se”.

  171. It would be interesting to know what’s happened to Betty or Maggie if anyone has info.

  172. Now this NEVADA newspaper knows how to report the news about the scammer, Jeremy Johnson, unlike the UTAH papers that report him as a philanthropist.

    “The receiver opposed that request, arguing the value of the home is less than what is owed and that the mortgage itself is suspect. That’s because Johnson had extensive business dealings with SunFirst and the mortgage was created to finance the acquisition of $3.4 million worth of bank stock in the name of Johnson’s brother and his parents. ”

    OPPS!!!

    Las Vegas judge refuses to release funds for fraud, gambling figure
    http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2011/jun/21/las-vegas-judge-refuses-release-funds-fraud-gambli/

  173. Speaking of Brooke Adams, I bet she thinks Jeremy Johnson is being persecuted instead of prosecuted!

  174. Oh LOOK – this article about Jeremy Johnson’s arrest mentions his partners in crime Jason and Todd Vowell –

    “Records in two lawsuits say Johnson and Elie have done business with well-known St. George businessmen Jason and Todd Vowell. One or both of the Vowells have been in the auto dealership industry and had an interest in the St. George Roadrunners minor league baseball team and the Liahona Academy for troubled youth in Southern Utah.”

    Las Vegas high-roller, fraud lawsuit figure arrested
    http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2011/jun/12/las-vegas-high-roller-fraud-lawsuit-figure-arreste/

  175. Anyone here have access to those court filings RE Jeremy Johnson?

  176. That second Vegas Inc. article about the arrest says Jeremy Johnson scammed more money from innocent people than originally believed –

    “But last year he and his companies were sued by the Federal Trade Commission in Las Vegas in what the FTC called a nationwide $289 million Internet scam (up from $275 million alleged earlier) in which consumers were deceptively enrolled in programs to obtain government grants and for other services.”

    What a prince!

  177. Wonder if Brooke will threaten to sue Hope Org. unless they plug her book?

  178. Numbers on JJ have kept running up – I’ve seen it stated many times in the $325 million dollar range, with only about 75 million of that actually returned through chargebacks.

  179. Brooke should become a sister wife, she seems sold on the concept.

    Maybe Kody has room

  180. CAJim- I remember that shooting incident. wasn’t it a hunting accident? I checked on line and the only thing I could find was that the young teen had been shot and that the RCMP were investigating. That was in 2006.

  181. Watson, the only shooting that I recall were claims during the YFZ Rescue when supposedly shots were heard and claims of ‘gun happy’ swat forces were made and then the whole claim kind of died out. I guess after the ‘sea container’ shed with military weapons was exposed, the FLDS leadership sent out the word to shut-up about illegal gunplay or any weaponry. The .50 sniper rifle was mentioned at about this time, as well, as I recall it was found inside the Temple.

  182. I thought you were talking about Lance Palmer

    http://www.childbrides.org/canada_VS_teenage_boy_shot_dead.html

    At the time of the Rescue Wild Bill did talk about low flying helicopters/planes and guns. He was getting everyone worked up my self included. I talked to Blues about it and if memory serves me right he confronted Wild Bill about it and I think Wild Bill backed down.

  183. Wonder if Brooke will threaten to sue Hope Org. unless they plug her book?

    ruthiesgirl said this on June 23, 2011 at 2:30 PM

    Now that’s funny ruthiesgirl!

    She will probably expect them to sell copies of it – they sell books about polygamy on their web site and in their office.

  184. Brooke should become a sister wife, she seems sold on the concept.

    Maybe Kody has room

    Chaps said this on June 23, 2011 at 2:58 PM

    Chaps, that is darn funny, too. You and ruthiesgirl are on a roll today.

  185. BiB said I pre-ordered the book Brooke assisted with entitled “Love Times Three”.

    Good for you, BiB. At least they’ll sell ONE copy.

  186. Mad Bill claimed at one time that LE fired on the men surrounding the temple. He pretty much shut up about it after he was proven wrong.

    You know, he keeps harping on these supposed civil lawsuits that the people from the ranch are going to file. I for one am giddy in anticipation of the discovery that will be conducted if such suits are filed. In civil suits they will have to produce documents. That would be Christmas and Easter all rolled into one package of presents. He is now claiming that Teresa’s virginity was proven by a SANE examination. I hope Teresa files suit first. I would love to see her give a deposition about her marriage to Raymond.

  187. Anonymous 8:13 pm – I love to read stories written by liars so that I can refute them.

  188. Anonymous 8:13 pm – I love to read stories written by liars so that I can refute them.

    Born in Brooklyn said this on June 23, 2011 at 8:28 PM

    Brilliant! With that thought in mind, I’ll go order a copy, too.

  189. Third cousin, you are related to EVERYBODY. Are you related to these Mussers?

    Gabriel Green
    Posting Date: 06-05-2011

    Gabriel Richard Green, 31, of Klamath Falls, OR passed away May 29, 2011.

    He was born Sept. 3, 1979 to Richard Green of Puyallup, WA and

    Celeste Spendlove Green of Logandale, NV.

    He was the husband of Annie Steed Musser, daughter of Sara and Joe Bradley of Keno, OR, and Joseph Musser, Centennial Park, AZ.

    He is survived by his children Stashia Angel, Nicholas Gabriel, and Madison Mae.

    He is also survived by sisters Abagail Musser (Joseph) of Mesquite NV, Sandy and Jessica Green, and Stacie Cameron of Logandale, NV.

    An account has been opened for his family at US Bank.

    http://www.mesquitelocalnews.com/viewnews.php?newsid=7873&id=45

  190. oh, how I’ve missed you people. We’re up in the mountains but not camping so I still have access. Anon 8:50 I will check my database, but I know for sure that I have Mussers and Spendloves. It’s so laughable how many people we discuss that I am related to that the other day I told my husband, eventually they are going to stop believing me and think I’m making it all up. But, not…. All too true….

  191. A new book about Warren Jeffs is scheduled for release in the fall –
    “Answer Them Nothing”
    http://www.amazon.com/Answer-Them-Nothing-Bringing-Polygamous/dp/1569765316/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_3

  192. Oh man, what the he** happened to him at 31 yoa? Deeply grieved for his children, my healthy and fit father dropped dead of a heart attack at 45 when I was five.

  193. I still can’t say bad things about Brooke. She shared a lot as did all the others reporting. I never wanted to hear my own voice echoing back at me. I honestly tried to understand it all from the many different angles.

    As far as slanted reporting- I can’t say a whole lot. with out mentioning any names, I’ve seen some strange stuff pulled by different ones and after the many years of enjoying reading it has become work following these stories.

    I had always hoped someone would have written a series of books talking about the whole thing. sharing all the facts. But it looks like that will never happen.

    I thought Brooke made a “last post” months ago. And in that post I thought she was going to write a book on a different subject. She must have changed her mind.

    Some days this all makes sense but most days none of this makes sense.

    Everyone has the right to tell their story. No matter if I agree with their lifestyle or not. But from what I’ve figured out about the Dargers- I am not interested in any more scams.

    Saying the words ha ha jokes on me somehow leaves a yucky taste in my mouth.

  194. The Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy Video Depositions are now on line :

    http://www.shieldandrefuge.org/canadapolygamy/index.htm

  195. It’s so laughable how many people we discuss that I am related to that the other day I told my husband, eventually they are going to stop believing me and think I’m making it all up. But, not…. All too true….

    Third Cousin said this on June 23, 2011 at 9:31 PM

    Don’t worry, Third Cousin, we believe you! That’s how it is in Polyg Ville.

  196. Thanks. It’s all quite bizarre but true!

  197. Walton said – I had always hoped someone would have written a series of books talking about the whole thing. sharing all the facts. But it looks like that will never happen.

    So go for it Walton! You have been following this story for a long time and know a lot of the history and the twists. You would be perfect to put it all into perspective in a tome.

    Hey, I’ll buy a copy, but I want it autographed please – LOL

  198. I believe you too 3C.

  199. I’ll buy the second copy, Walton, and you can sign however you want! Or, of course, be anonymous! Like we all are!

  200. I’d buy Walton’s book. Make mine Kindle.

  201. You guys are funny. And I mean that in a nice way. I’m not a writer. Just one who likes to read. and share.

    So maybe someone could do a mini series on all this stuff. They could start off with some of the history of some of these folks and bring it all in with the ending of this whole thing.

    Tv hasn’t been the same since the writers strike a few years ago. They say Reality tv is the way to go. the way I see it.. it was a cheaper way to go.
    I’ve read that the ratings for reality shows are up. The only reason for that is because there is nothing else on tv. A person has a choice of seeing Reality show A or Reality show B. Whoop de do

    I didn’t even like watching the news there for awhile. Everyone was screaming louder than the one sitting across from them.

    Did you ever notice that there aren’t many shows on tv that show anyone working? Unless they are on some type of crime solving forensics type show.

    Crazy huh?

  202. Hey you guys I have to mention this: The other day I read that Salt Lake City Utah homeless shelters had seen over 8,000 people. That didn’t even take into consideration the people that were left on the streets.

    There was no flood. No tornado, no hurricane. Just homeless because. I have a hard time picturing this and it has bothered me since I read about it. Around here, we try to take care of each other.

    I know right now times are tough for a lot of people. Seems like there is so much going on in every state.

    If anyone has the ability to give, money, clothing or time- the Red Cross and Salvation Army are great organizations.

    And no matter the religious background a prayer for all those people would be a good thing.

  203. The quality of programming on television leaves a great deal to be desired. Some of the educational cable stations (Smithsonian Channel, National Geographic Channel, History International) and Public Television do have better programming.

  204. The Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy Video Depositions are now on line :

    http://www.shieldandrefuge.org/canadapolygamy/index.htm

    Born in Brooklyn said this on June 23, 2011 at 9:57 PM

    🙂 Thanks

    I did a quick look at the site and saw the address. Get this- if that is at the same address it was 16 years ago, I almost stopped inside but I was afraid to go in.

    In Brigham City facing west this building is on the the right side. If it’s the same place I am thinking about.

  205. Walton, the specific details on the ‘sea container’ cache of weapons, Wild Bill will try to deny but during Allen Eugene Keate’s trial, on 10 December, 2009, the defense attorney broached the topic during his cross-examination of Texas Ranger Don Williams. Unchallenged by Attorney Wilson, Ranger Williams entered into the Court record that in deed a cache of semi-automatic military weapons, with mounted scopes, were seized at the YFZ Raunch from a locked storage container, near the Temple. The FBI removed two box containers from the Temple by their third search warrant that was served on then Bishop Merril Jessop, the contents of which has never been revealed.

  206. Actually a civil suit was filed against Texas CPS by an flds mother. The suit was dropped by the mother, Naomi Johnson, on the advice of her attorney, Robert Gibson Jr. Link to a Des News article about it.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20081119/ai_n31020450/

    Quote from the article.

    “Gibson said FLDS families could pursue a civil lawsuit against the agency for the removal of the children, but noted that Texas immunity laws would make it very difficult.”

  207. Walton,
    I don’t know what you are referring to with regard to the placement of the building. The video affidavits were placed on the internet by Shield and Refuge Ministry which is run by Doris Hanson. Shield and Refuge Mission is associated with the Main Street Church of Brigham City, Utah, which is an Evangelical Lutheran Church. I have no idea how it is placed on the street, so I can’t comment any further. They are a reputable Christian organization which assists people who wish to exit polygamy groups.

  208. Homeless shelters have been overwhelmed where I live for several years now. The market crash was 2008 and the winter of 2009 was especially bad. There are many more people than beds, even considering the church program that rotates people in overflow space in church halls throughout the year. There are also many more homeless families with children. It makes me really mad when people talk about how homeless people are lazy or drug addicts who just want someone else to take care of them. Although a good portion of homeless people have mental and/or drug problems, we didn’t suddenly get a crop of laziness to go with the rise in unemployment and home foreclosures. And no one who had actually witnessed that type of life would say that anyone would chose it because it was so easy.

  209. CAJim, you are so right about the line of questioning that got in the record duirng the Keate trial. The AG couldn’t bring it up because of a Motion in Limine item, but once the defense brought it up it all came out.

    To my understanding, to this date, the Federal search warrant has never been unsealed. In Warren’s trial, we will see evidence from Nevada by a search warrant there that was executed for the red Caddy his was caught in.

  210. CAJim finding guns at the ranch really wasn’t that much of a surprise for many of us. Shurtleff had gone on Tucker and there were certain things mentioned that pointed in the direction. People wanted to downplay the whole gun thing but it was/is still a very serious issue in ALL parts of the story/stories.

    There was a reason Texas LE acted in which the way they did. Safety was an issue for ALL parties. imo

    Last week, Canada Customs officers searched the car of an American driving across the border between Idaho and British Columbia.

    The man is known to customs officials, says Jennifer Leenhouts, chair of the Canada Employment and Immigration Union’s women’s committee.

    He is a bodyguard to Warren Jeffs, the new prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS).

    Jeffs was already in Canada, having flown into Cranbrook, a 90-minute drive from the polygamous FLDS community of Bountiful, near Creston in southeastern B.C.

    What the officers found in the bodyguard’s vehicle were ammunition clips — but no ammunition — for a semi-automatic assault weapon, and some rifle shells. Because they didn’t find semi-automatic weapons or any other guns, and because the man’s papers were in order, he was allowed to enter Canada.

    http://www.marshall-attorneys.com/Press/2004_08_15_CH.htm

  211. Thanks BIB for finding that “ANSWER THEM NOTHING” book – that will make interesting reading.

    I knew a Deb in FL once…. Heck she used to post here all the time….. But NAAAHHHHHHH

  212. I pre-ordered my copy of “Answer Them Nothing” on Amazon. Too bad it is not available on Kindle.

  213. Well my take on the Court record fact that a cache of semi-automatic weapons with scopes was seized goes to the unfounded claims of a ‘Witch hunt’ at the YFZ Raunch and disproves that the para-military stance taken by the Texas Rangers and Sherriff Doran’s staff was vindicated. The mistaken claim that the Rescue team over-reacted with a ‘tank’, an oft repeated claim by Willie “Thug” Jessop, was not actually used and was in fact a Armored Personnel Carrier (APC) and not an tank, i.e. no turret or cannon mount. In fact the seized 0.50 caliber sniper rifle was powerful enough to have penetrated the APC protective armor if it had been used.

    Does anyone here know of another church sect that possess semi-automatic military weapons within their gulag, as standard accoutrement for a,”hard working and peaceful religious community group”?

  214. Cajim

    The two most famous one, is of course Koresh, who had the BATF after him not for polygamy or child molesting, which he also partook in, but rather weapons violations.

    Then of course there is Ruby Ridge, and that involves a different mind set, but shows the govt hand about concern over weapons violaters in fringe groups.

    Both incidences werent handled well, and may be part of the reason the feds havent “handled” the flds yet. JMO

  215. I have also wondered if the guard tower in Pringle, S.D. had a nice stash of guns. why else have a guard tower?

  216. this is one of the kids I knew when I was in the FLDS. I don’t think what he did was right in every respect, but he’s got some balls or stupidity either way. Probably trying to do the “right thing” but I think he’s going about it in a bit of a brash and slipshod manner. still, very interesting. it highlights the ignorance in both a lot of the current as well as former FLDS people, and how they try to help one another but still end up hurting each other.

  217. it gets more interesting in the second and third video as well.

  218. Thanks yeeha

    Evidently he still cares for his family, and felt it was good to confront his dad over it – and he did get him to disclose he was working the child so the kid could earn his “meals” and oh once he got a gift of a hunting knife.

    Wow. Not his kid either – a child labor violation. Also of note, he wont raise his head. Most folks out there with half a brain must be embarrassed with whats come to light.

    I havent heard the last two, but he didnt flame his dad too bad, just called him on the facts and hoped he would wake up.

  219. Whoa! Version two

    To be forgiven of “mixing your seed” you and five generations must be beheaded…

    at the 9 minute mark of 12

    Said it came from BY

  220. Things are kinda crazy at my house today. And I suspect that it will be like this for a while. But wanted to pop in and say that I watched a couple of videos that BiB brought over and hope to watch more later this evening.

    yeehaaa- There is so much to say. And I will spare everyone and post a little at a time. It’s like looking at two storm fronts meeting.

    First off my 1st concern is for this young man. I don’t know if he can get into trouble legally or not. I am worried for him physically and mentally.
    And I am very concerned for the 12 year old who is still in the situation.

    His dad probably went back and told others which means they will be even more cautious about talking to those that have left.

    As I said there is so much that I want to say but I am pressed for time right now.

    One of the things that I thought is how ironic it is that those that were casted into the “Sons of Perdition” spot might very well be the ones who can help those that are truly in the dark.

    Moving from Warrens group to Willlies group is like picking one bad reality show over another. A person shouldn’t have to settle. Everyone deserves a variety. ( one of the strangest things I faced while living in Utah is the lack of “other Churches”. Seems so many think that Churches need to be shining with Gold. A little tent on a hill can do wonders with the sound of music and kids playing basketball in a school yard with others could do wonders if done consistently. jmo

    Gary Engels is in the area and he is a good man. He will do right by all this. And I wish that this young man could hear Dan Fischer talk about having the Freedom of Religion without being held captive.

    Any how thanks for sharing the video. Sure does have a lot to talk about. think about. But I will stop back later.

  221. Indeed my heart goes out to young Holm. He did a couple good things, he confronted the evils, and called them on it.

    It’s sad this other 12 yr old boy is caught up in it as child slave labor, but the law in Utah has the attitude “hard work doesnt usually kill kids” so nothing will be done – as usual.

    Also, the audio / video was well played. Oh, I likely would have asked harder questions, but it ran as it did and revealed plenty.

    Funny how Holm sr said the tape of Warren in prison was faked, then saying he had never seen it. That speaks volumes.

    Thanks yeehaa, and ten points to our fellow young man Holm who stood up to his abuser!

    ( he made the point that he had been physically and verbally abused, worked as a slave, and treated like trash when he left )

    It is a testimony worth hearing.

  222. Another genetic disease pops up in Utah, I dont know if they are polygamists or if its in the background.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52066146-78/genome-yandell-family-human.html.csp?page=1

  223. Walton, for the first video yehaaa posted, it sounds like this Holm boy is writing that book you wanted.

  224. I have ordered my copy of “Answer Them Nothing” and am excited that it will be shipped on August 8th.

    Debra sent me a pre-release copy and it is POWERFUL. But, it was too hard for me to read on the computer screen and I look forward to having a real hardback book sitting on my lap.

    Don’t cringe, BiB, I am just not a Kindle person. I need paper pages to turn.

  225. Stamp, could you embed the 3rd video by the Holm boy, please?

  226. Anon, how did you get an advanced copy ?

  227. Because I am special – LOL

  228. In this last installment, holm sr starts off saying he didnt see Warren online, at least he denies it.

    Later, there is video of him and toward the end, a closeup.

    He sounds like he was quite abusive to “Carlo” besides just child labor.

  229. Thanks for posting the 3rd installment of the Holm boy’s video.

    Geeze, what a mess this whole FLDS “religion” is.

  230. Stamp,
    I will obtain a copy of the journal article on this newly identified genetic disorder and I will review it. I will try to post my synopsis of their findings next week.

  231. ok.. I had to go check out what you guys were talking about. The way it was sounding I thought this “Deb” was dumping on us. That doesn’t look like the case.

    http://www.amazon.com/Answer-Them-Nothing-Bringing-Polygamous/dp/1569765316

    The compelling story of the struggle by law enforcement and activists to dismantle the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) is finally told. In 1953, when police raided the Short Creek compound of the FLDS, it soon became a political and publicity nightmare eventually costing the governor of Arizona his job. Thus began 50 years of skittish public officials turning a blind eye to heinous offenses such as child abandonment, kidnapping, statutory rape, and incest, as well as massive tax and welfare fraud. Warren Jeffs became the new FLDS prophet and president in 2002, and anti-FLDS activists watched in horror as he used his boundless authority and the resources of a tax-supported community to devastate thousands of lives on cruel whims. This exposé presents a detailed, chilling account of how a hostile, destructive group can manipulate the U.S. judicial system. It is a mesmerizing journey into one of the United States’s darkest corners, a story that stretches over three states and deep into the history of the powerful Mormon Church.

  232. From a comment in Brooke’s blog: “it feels like with Brooke’s absence and the spotlight attention of the national media melting into boredom that the people of polygamy have once again faded from public view much like after the Short Creek Raid in the fifties. Maybe that’s not such a bad thing, maybe these people need to be left to themselves more and out of the view of prying eyes.”

    —————————-

    When left to themselves, they have sex with children – so let’s keep the media spotlight on.

  233. It sounds like someone is trusting Brooke to give them the “real story” and not looking elsewere for ANY info that says otherwise. Like many “true believers” they are wearing blinders.

  234. I just watched the video with Brenda. Amazing. She shared so very much. 2 countries, 2 different communities, difference in dress but the base was the same.

    People are talking about wanting to “decriminalize” polygamy so that the women and children wouldn’t be so isolated. That they would have legal rights to this and that. It would be safer. They wouldn’t be discriminated against. 2nd and 3rd families would have a “voice”.

    Being afraid of the law was the least of their problems. If they still home school, if they still teach them that they must be submissive, that they were put on earth for only one purpose- making it legal isn’t going to make that better. Some men treated their 2nd wives better than their first(legal) wife.

    Brenda made me smile. And she made me laugh out loud at times. But I didn’t miss one word she said nor did I miss the lesson she could teach.

    She is one of the people that should be talking at the Safety Net meetings.

    I hope they never ever make Polygamy legal or decriminalize it.

  235. It sounds like someone is trusting Brooke to give them the “real story” and not looking elsewere for ANY info that says otherwise. Like many “true believers” they are wearing blinders.

    mc199 said this on June 25, 2011 at 1:27 AM

    The prying eye part could be meant for me. I’m not saying it is but I have always owned up to being snoopy. It was the way I was raised. Ask questions until you get answers my dad would say.

    And with so many loose ends/ unanswered questions I actually could be the one wearing blinders because I am 100% certain that there is more than we know. And the real story has yet to be told.

    yeeehaaa bringing the youtube video over says it is all still going on.
    The videos from Canada show that it has gone on for years. It was bad before Warren and it got worse because of Warren.

    The lack of ooomp from LE/political leaders says a lot about how much more we’ve yet to learn. So yeah, I want the real story.

    Canada and Texas 🙂

  236. Well, Brookes story on the BC Canadian school system was that everything was well above average. The children were well above average intelligence on test scores, they had state-of the-art computers and software and the secondary school(High School) was going to be giving out their highest number ever of diplomaed graduates. The real truth was that the children were prepped by the teachers assistants for the questions/answers of the BC tests, the computers were not allowed to be connected to the World Wide Web(internet) and the Secondary School hadn’t graduated a dozen students in the past decade. Brooke Adams has never corrected, recanted nor set the facts straight on any of these now known and reported details. Her form of journalism is usually branded as propaganda.

  237. SHAPLEY, WESTON WAYNE
    Birth Date: 10/25/87
    Address : 179 S 100 E, Ivins, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    19:53:16 06/24/11 Lee, Julie WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    COMMITMENT COMMITMENT-COURT ORDE BM 5DIS [No Payments Made]


  238. That’s Bill Shapley’s son. He was in a 4-wheeler accident last summer

  239. Walton replied: The prying eye part could be meant for me…

    Walton, I would NEVER question your “snooping”. You are an intelligent human being with the ability to look at both sides of the equation and decide for yourself. My remark was meant for her undying supporters who believe, without question, the carp she posts. They don’t want to see any truth outside the narrow parameters of her blog and her thoughts….possibly, the thoughts fed to her by Willie, et al.

  240. 51-year-old ‘Lost’ actor Doug Hutchinson marries 16-year-old girlfriend

  241. Anon, I read that and saw the picture and ick! The creepy factor kicked in. She DOES NOT look like any 16yr old that I know. I question the motives on both side of that marriage. One of my granddaughters is 16 [and studying to be a pilot…I’m so proud of her!]. The last thing on her mind is marrying a guy just a few years younger than me! I can already see her reaction….ewwww! LOL!

  242. That’s Bill Shapley’s son. He was in a 4-wheeler accident last summer
    ProudTexan said this on June 25, 2011 at 12:41 PM

    Was that one the incident involving the “cheese”? Where the FLDS driver never showed up in court to face traffic charges.

  243. mc, I meant that Brooke could have me in mind when she wrote that.

    If I’ve gone “snooping” it’s because my hinker meter went off and flashes something is funky. Trust you me, it has gone off a lot during the course of following the stories.

    My pit bull attitude usually appears when someone has tried to pick on Carolyn, Flora, Ruth or the many others. Or when someone says that the Lost Boys and Girls don’t exist.

    Or when they say that they are isolated incidents. Then the pit bull comes out.

    The few that have come out and said that life is great/ it’s all about love blah blah blah remind me so much of Ruth. I really like Ruth. I heard/felt her pain from all the years of abuse caused by the very things she was defending. I can’t ignore that.

    I remember one time (maybe 2) being so upset with Ben Winslow. I thought the top of my head was going to blow. But I hung in there with Ben because I knew deep down that Ben was one hell of a reporter and that he was a good person. But there were things behind the story that I didn’t know at the time. When I found out.. it made sense. I’ve since told Ben I was sorry. And to this day, I still follow Bens stories and his twitter page. He’s a good reporter. And he is a good person. Check out his twitter page. There isn’t a day that he doesn’t say or do somethng that doesn’t make me smile. Just lately there he was out talking to cows. I laughed so hard I thought coffee was about to hit my computer screen.

    I understand the tension that some people have. I’ve read the same story as they have. I know some of the same things that they do. I will never know what it is like to be a reporter. I will never know what it is like to be a writer. But I sure do appreciate those that do. Big time.

    I don’t understand the whole law-suit thing with Hope. But the Trib isn’t the only one out there trying to protect their legal rights to the things that have been written. I had a big hissy fit with them joining the likes of Righthaven.

    We are lucky to be able to read as much as we have from the many places that do share.

  244. Can’t edit. The above post was from me Walton

  245. Yes, Walton, Ben Winslow is a great guy. So is Brent Hunsaker. Two really fine reporters, too IMHO.

  246. Walton, The Salt Lake Tribune didn’t give a tinker’s damn about Hope Org. posting their articles. Heck, a lot of the material in their articles came from Hope Org. And it’s not like the SL Trib articles are in an online archive that someone would be able to PAY to read them now.

    It was all about Brooke Adams getting a burr up her arse. She is the one who forced the Trib’s hand.

    Do you ever wonder why they didn’t go after many other sites with SL Tribune articles? Sites that are not non-profit even!

    It would be my guess that it’s because they’re sites run by people who didn’t pi** off Ms. Adams.

  247. Anon at 2:01 PM

    “51-year-old ‘Lost’ actor Doug Hutchinson marries 16-year-old girlfriend”

    ———————————-

    “Girlfriend”? You’re kidding, right?

    This is nothing besides a Hugh Hefner / Warren Jeffs type of idiotic sex adventure – thankfully way outside the norm. But I’m sure there will be a couple plygger wanna be’s that will toot their horn and say they wish they could be doing that right now too. Even though they missed that train, or bus, or truck, whatever.

    And I wonder who that might be?

  248. and in 25 years that 16 year old will be pushing her husband’s wheelchair – assuming that their marriage lasts that long …. probably not

  249. I think the 16 year old marrying the 51 year old was disgusting. The biggest difference between that idiot and Warren Jeffs is the 79 other wives waiting in the wings. At least he appears to only be married to 1 at a time. It’s still gross, but not against the law if you get a Judge’s consent or parental consent.

  250. A Texan – I thought the “cheese” man was a Jessop.

  251. I can’t understand any parent who would consent to the marriage of their 16 yr. old child.

  252. Tonight, I spent my evening watching the Canadian Polygamy Reference Case videos of Paula Barrett, Sara Hammon, Brenda Jensen and Ruth Lane that are hosted on Doris Hansen’s “Shield and Refuge” web site.

    Powerful women speaking out and POWERFUL things they had to say.

    Many thanks to Doris for hosting these videos. I hope to watch the rest of them in the near future (it does require some time, though).

    What remarkable ladies! Hats off to all of you for speaking out about your personal hell living that lifestyle. I admire all of you survivors of polygamy.

  253. Brenda made me smile. And she made me laugh out loud at times. But I didn’t miss one word she said nor did I miss the lesson she could teach.

    She is one of the people that should be talking at the Safety Net meetings.

    I hope they never ever make Polygamy legal or decriminalize it.

    Walton said this on June 25, 2011 at 4:29 AM

    Walton, early on Brenda DID speak out at the Safety Net meetings on a regular basis. They just didn’t want to hear what she had to say.

    Nor did they like hearing what Sara Hammon had to say. Sara’s father (J. Marion Hammon, the original “prophet” of the Centennial Park, Arizona polygamous sect) sexually molested her as a little girl and CPAC made a concerted effort to tell people that she was a liar.

    Mark Timpson; along with Marion Hammon’s (2 of 19) sister wives Marlene and Priscilla Hammon (with the Centennial Park Action Committee) called both of them liars in public.

    I guess the two ladies finally saw through the Safety Net’s BS and gave up trying to create a voice for victims of polygamy.

  254. wow. I really wish that they could go to those meetings. I can understand how hard it would be to attend if they are calling them liars and being disrespectful. But where is the director during such a time?

    I remember watching a few of those Safety Net meetings and some of the members were talking about a lack of respect shown to those practicing polygamy. Seems to me it is a two way street and the directors should have stood up and said hey.

    PatM. needs to step up to the plate. The Safety Net needs to start stepping up.

    there is over 8,000 homeless in Salt Lake. Many Churches and other organizations are jumping in to help how ever they can. What efforts has the Safety Net and the groups that belong done to help others outside?

    There is a world outside. Maybe PatM. should take them on a bus tour. per se. Plant a seed.

    The many things that Brenda and the others could share is so important. imo

    My life has never been so full that I couldn’t make another friend.

  255. I just watched the videos with Ruth Lane.

    “Ruths Law” would consist helping those that would want to practice Polygamy and with boundries. Make it easier for “consenting adults”.

    But… legalizing or decriminalizing it doesn’t protect the kids. The whole thing about “consenting adults”, legal age, within boundries does NOT protect the kids.

    She mentioned that if they started enforcing laws that they would make the prophet/bishops a martyr. They would go into hiding. I’ve heard this before. Thing is not enforcing the laws has proven that these men still walk on water in their eyes and the kids have had to suffer. Why allow the list to grow longer?

    Can’t make babies if the baby maker is in jail imo.

  256. “Nor did they like hearing what Sara Hammon had to say. Sara’s father (J. Marion Hammon, the original “prophet” of the Centennial Park, Arizona polygamous sect) sexually molested her as a little girl and CPAC made a concerted effort to tell people that she was a liar.”

    Those who condemned Sara Hammon and called her a liar would have us believe that they are interested in assisting victims of abuse in their community. By their actions they show us that they do not meet clinical criteria to serve as providers of aid and assistance to such victims.

  257. I have trouble understanding a parent giving consent for a 16 year old to marry a 51 year old also, but at least it was done in the proper manner.

  258. The “Husband” is the extremely creepy, disgusting prison guard in the “Green Mile” movie.

    While Tom Hanks plays a good guy, what happens to this guy at Hanks hand will make your toenails curl.

    Evidently the parents didnt see the movie.

  259. This stuff sounds interesting. Any opinion, BiB?

    “Citicoline, a natural compound found in several natural products, shows promise for improving mental function, according to research conducted by scientists at the University of Utah’s Brain Institute.”

    Research: U. study finds supplement helps cognition
    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52020162-78/brain-todd-yurgelun-research.html.csp

  260. I think the Safety Net, after all these years, has shown its true colors – not to necessarily help victims, but to white wash the crimes.

    Job well done!

    Funny, though, Texas doesnt set up no stinking outfit to coddle those friggen child molesters.

    Prison is their safety net.

  261. Anon,
    I have an entire powerpoint on that very topic, and I will make it available to you.

  262. “According to former members of the Order, decades of inbreeding have resulted in rampant birth defects throughout the family.

     Some children are born blind, others with missing fingernails or undersize heads. One baby deemed to have too many deformities was allegedly put in a shoe box and left to die. 

    Mark Shurtleff, the Utah attorney general, has spent years investigating the clan, gathering birth certificates and genealogical data, and has come to believe that the cult is guilty of a long list of crimes, including child labor, tax evasion, welfare fraud, polygamy and the sanctioning of underage marriages to blood relatives.

     So far, however, despite Shurtleff’s efforts, the insular and highly secretive nature of the Order has prevented him from finding sufficient evidence to bring a case strong enough to dismantle the clan.”

    ===========================

    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/inside-the-order-one-mormon-cults-secret-empire-20110615?page=4

  263. Here is a powerpoint presentation I have created for teaching my residents about the management of cognitive dysfunction in traumatic brain injury.
    Please note that the use of citicholine for cognitive dysfunction was described initially in 1991.

  264. Sara Hammon’s own mother has left the Centennial Park sect and believes her daughters stories that tell of her father’s sexual abuse and household with dozens and dozens of children leaving in a chaotic environment mostly absent of a father figure. Seems to me that the storylines of apostates don’t vary all that much on the abuses that they share about the Order, liars usually tell a varied and unusual tale and not repeating the same tell tale topics. Sara Hammon has stood by her storyline for well over ten years and not varied on it’s essences of truth.

  265. http://www.liveleak.com/e/404_1309092006

    Very interesting changes taking place in Los Angeles in regard to the muslim brotherhood and the apparent coddling of them by local law enforcement..

    Now, this link tells what is going on in Egypt now that they have gained “muslim democracy” which seems to be code for “anything goes and look out if you are a Christian”,,,

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d29_1309103844

  266. So far, however, despite Shurtleff’s efforts

    What efforts, except to say that they aren’t going to prosecute for polygamy.

  267. yeah, the polygamists are safe with Shurtleff if they STFU and keep their abusing ways down to a low roar

  268. The safety net was a good idea but Utah quickly let it be taken over by the polygamists which is a deterent to anyone seeking help. It is essentially run by women who were aware of crimes for years and never reported a single one and would not do so now. What is their function, to rat on anyone seeking to leave, it is definitely not to help them get out.

  269. Winston Blackmore shot down by the courts again. Owes backtaxes galore for scamming the Canadian government and wants evidence of crimes suppressed. No says the court. Canada is weary of the crimes against children and the tax payers. This slave master who used kids to work for nothing and prop up his million dollar empire now is claiming to be a victim. It was so funny that they used all his TV appearances (where he often lied of course) to say he had no problem with the public knowing his business when it suited him.

  270. Hi Blackbird!

    So when Canada finds out Winston is treating the govt like one of his deprived wives, then they might do something?

    ha ha !!!

  271. I hope Canada makes Winston pay and Texas makes Warren pay. I don’t understand the mentality of letting women and children be abused in the name of religion. Next thing you know, the drug dealers are going to start a drug religion and claim they are being picked on because of their religion.

    NEWSFLASH: Religion doesn’t allow you to break the law and it isn’t above the law.

    Now if Utah could just buy a clue.

  272. Hey Stamp – any word on the tax lien sales? Could be a money maker for the right person.

  273. If the Canadian schools were so good why did only a few graduate from high school.

  274. yehaaa, I just heard that some off your dad’s brothers have been ex’ed. Have you heard from them? Care to comment?

  275. I had heard some property already went to sale, and in my experience, it wont be long before more goes on the block.

    With the economy the way it is, there is lots to choose from, so the UEP properties will likely go cheap.

  276. Oh, and a footnote on those videos from Holm. The sr says the internet “will deceive ya” and then he jumps right into telling him to read the 3 in 1.

    Anyone else see the irony? And in Shortcreek you really dont need to start reading if you want deception. They will give it to you straight up.

  277. Here is a powerpoint presentation I have created for teaching my residents about the management of cognitive dysfunction in traumatic brain injury.
    Please note that the use of citicholine for cognitive dysfunction was described initially in 1991.

    Born in Brooklyn said this on June 26, 2011 at 11:35 AM

    did you happen to see the interview with Ryan O’Neil and Piers Morgan? Interesting for a lot of reasons.

  278. Stamp what do you think is happening with those properties?

    Do you think that CPark is growing?

    I hope not.

  279. I’m with ya blackbird. I’ve spoken to several who have left the FLDS and some went to public school for a while and after that it was priesthood school.

  280. No I did not see the Ryan O’Neill interview. What was it about ?

  281. I think CP will keep growing, there doesnt seem to be much ambition for LE there while the FLDS are garnering all the abusive news.

    As I recall, the Berry Knoll ppty was supposed to be sold to a CP’r? Perhaps I am remembering it wrong.

    Anyway, if it is sold, that would give them a lot more room for expansion.

    I tend to think once the tenth circuit makes their judgement, the hammer will fall, eerrrr make that the auction gavel.

    The peeps, both in and out, who havent made payments, will have to do it or lose it..

    ————-

    IRT Ryan O’Niell, I didnt see that interview, but I saw a report where they suspect he is in the possession of one of Farrah’s paintings, worth 30 million or so, and it belongs to the Estate.

  282. OOOPS

    “Actor Ryan O‘Neal is allegedly being investigated for a missing Andy Warhol painting of Farah Fawcett worth $30 million, reported ABC.com .

    The painting was spotted hanging in O’Neal’s bedroom during the airing of a reality show with his daughter Tatum O’Neal on the OWN channel.

    The painting was a part of an art collection bequeathed to Texas University by actress Farrah Fawcett.

    Fawcett did not mention Ryan O’Neal, with whom she had an on-off relationship for 30 years, in her will. The actress left a fortune valued at $6 million.”

    http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/169613/20110626/farrah-fawcett-ryan-o-neal-documentary-reality-show-own-tatum-o-neal-andy-warhol-painting.htm

  283. While the LDS were working to ban gay marriage in CA, they neglected NY state, home of Joe Smith –

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/26/new.york.pride.parade/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

    NY Gov Cuomo just signed the New York Gay Marriage act, which will ironically take effect on…

    wait for it….

    July 24th.

  284. Article on the proposed sale of the Berry Knoll to Kenneth Knudson, a CP resident: This sale has probably been delayed due to the litigation, property tax issues, etc.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy1158.html

    Quote from the article.

    “With that debt in mind, Wisan has proposed selling 438 acres of Berry Knoll Farm, located at the Utah-Arizona state line. The FLDS oppose the sale, which they argue benefits only Wisan and his attorneys and reduces the trust’s holdings. The farm has economic, historic and religious significance, the FLDS say.
    Wisan and his attorneys are still working on a revised purchase offer from Berry Knoll Farms LLC, a development company put together by Kenneth Knudson. Knudson is a resident of Centennial Park, a separate polygamous community adjacent to Berry Knoll Farm.
    Knudson told The Salt Lake Tribune he will proceed only with assurances the property is clear and not vulnerable to additional lawsuits.
    “I am not buying their fight,” he said. “If the court does not settle that dispute, we will not be concluding that contract.”
    Knudson said he has no interest in entering “the war being engaged between the UEP and the FLDS or the Attorney General’s Office. That was not my intention in making a contract.”

  285. Thanks chemist, good find and straight to the point.

    All that said, to make it fair and open, the property was to be sold at auction, with this Knudson bid to be the foundation of any other possible sale.

    IOW, if someone else wanted it, they could bid too, and if the bid was more than Knudsens, then it would enter into a bidding scenario.

    That way, any FLDS or other investor would have a rightful chance at it, and would dispel any favoritism that might be suggested after sale to Knudsen.

    That said, there are likely few FLDS who could honestly bid, as it seems all their money has been spent on attorneys and various other pieces of real estate out and about.

    Of which taxes are owed on and unpaid.

    pesky rules to follow and all that jazz!

    Anyway, the resolution of Berry Knoll wont happen now until the 10th Circuit makes their ruling, and perhaps not even then if its further appealed to the SCOTUS – which likely wont hear it but the appeal may eat up a little time.

    During which time the FLDS keeps shedding money like snow in June.

    I keep wondering when the Feds are gonna ask Warren for an accounting of that 4 million in Apple Valley UEP funds he got when Willie sold that land for him.

  286. This is how its going to go down when they pull the trigger

    http://www.ueptrust.com/BerryKnoll/Invitation%20to%20Bid%20-%20Berry%20Knoll%20Property.pdf

  287. I’m not sure if you can see the whole video or not but I found it incredibly interesting. Because of the things he says, the things that he belieives and because he seems to be having some type of mental health issue?

    http://piersmorgan.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/24/watch-the-full-emotional-tatum-oneal-and-ryan-oneal-interviews-tonight/

    Crazy at my house be back later.

  288. Oh, yeah he looks like a mess. Holding on to her 30 mil Warhol print probably comforts him though.

    Dang I am fresh out of compassion for that guy.

  289. OOPS

    If I was Ryan I would start crying too!

    They are comparing him to Michael Lohan – and thats a pretty low cut in hollywood!

    http://www.examiner.com/pop-culture-in-cincinnati/farah-fawcett-s-30m-warhol-vanishes-ryan-o-neal-1-suspect

  290. This is how its going to go down when they pull the trigger

    http://www.ueptrust.com/BerryKnoll/Invitation%20to%20Bid%20-%20Berry%20Knoll%20Property.pdf

    Stamp said this on June 26, 2011 at 5:26 PM

    so it’s a done deal?

    Cpark takes over? End of story? I guess I wouldn’t be suprised. Seems as though the roads were being paved in that direction. Twisted beyond belief in my opinion.

    How did CPark form? oy oy oy

  291. Walton: The CP group split off on the mid 1980s on a dispute over one man rule.Flds101 has a good article on the various splits.

    http://flds101.blogspot.com/2008/05/flds-history-101-splinter-groups.html

    “Finally in 1984, after council member Guy Musser died, Johnson removed Hammon and Timpson from their positions of leadership. Hammon and Timpson refused to go away quietly and the community took sides. On one side were those who believed LeRoy Johnson was the one man prophet. On the other side were those who believed that the priesthood council should continue to lead, that they all held the same authority, a doctrine consistent with what had been taught by former leaders. The first group became known as “The First Ward” and the second group (about 1/3rd) became known as “The Second Ward.” Finally, in 1986 the Second Ward group broke away. Intense disputes continued, especially over property and the UEP. Law suits were fought for years. The Second Warders eventually moved off of UEP property a couple miles south of Colorado City, in Centennial Park.”

  292. Walton

    Its not sealed in stone, but if the land is sold as it looks like it will be, then the CP group is indeed the apparent buyer – unless a white knight FLDS bidder shows up.

    However, I see that as unlikely – and not because there arent any FLDS with the possible funds to perform.

    The main reason, is that Berry Knoll is NOT truly of any significance, NOT a Temple site, and the farm is gone, its toast, too expensive to water.

    Oh and Warren dusted his shoes at the entire place.

    So, the only reason I see the FLDS buying it, is to prevent the CP group from owning it – and rivalries CAN be a powerful drug to some.

    Even so, I tend to think the negatives outweigh the urge to compete during this time.

  293. Not to mention the FLDS would in effect be buying it from themselves and the money would be used to pay legal expenses of the Trustee that they themselves caused to be incurred.

    Its like paying twice for lunch and not getting to eat it. DOH!

  294. Berry Knoll in some way represents the PROBLEM that Warren S. Jeffs had sprung on him when his more recent ‘Endtime’ teachings said that Short Creek is no longer the “Gathering Place”. The ‘Lands of Refuge” are not fully operational nor adequate to accommodate all of the Hildale/Colorado City populations. Warren is now under arrest from his failed federal fugitive flight and his transition away from Short Creek now seems to be halted in mid-stream. What’s a poor prophet to do? The folks being left behind and uninvited to the “Lands of Refuge” know that they have to repent and pay more tithes or they won’t ever be invited. Warren seemed to be willing to abandon the Short Creek, including the Berry Knoll property, in light of his revelations but alot of the Short Creekers now appear to be questioning the whole revelation and plan to abandon the Hildale/Colorado City plan. The UEP Trust battle in the Courts points up that the United Order might have some serious cracks in it’s unity and the plan to abandon the trust, in toto is not being adhered to as fervently as the prophet and the FLDS Church leadership might have thought or hoped to attain. Right now many faithful being invited to move to the “Lands of Refuge” would balk at the prospect. Big Problem!

  295. The safety net was a good idea but Utah quickly let it be taken over by the polygamists which is a deterent to anyone seeking help. It is essentially run by women who were aware of crimes for years and never reported a single one and would not do so now. What is their function, to rat on anyone seeking to leave, it is definitely not to help them get out.

    blackbird said this on June 26, 2011 at 1:42 PM

    What you said is true, blackbird.

    The Safety Net Committee started out with funding to help transport and house people who wanted out of polygamy. There was also funding for law enforcement to protect them.

    Today, it has become a committee emphasizing how to train service providers to be nice and culturally sensitive to the polygamists and also a platform for the pro-polygamists to whine about decriminalization.

    That is one reason why people like Sara Hammon and Brenda Jensen quit attending. They didn’t want anymore of the Safety Net’s BS.

  296. Did anyone else notice that the article chemist linked to above on the Rick Ross web site was written by Brooke Adams of the Salt Lake Tribune?

    Gee, I wonder why the SL Trib allows Rick Ross to post their newspaper articles?

    I guess Mr. Ross didn’t pi** off Ms. Adams and get threatened with a lawsuit.

  297. The televised Safety Net Committee meetings look like pep rallies or support group meetings for polygamists to me. There is virtually no planning for care of clients going on there – it is all about the politics of decriminalization / social acceptance of polygamy and apologetics for the misdeeds of polygamists.
    Anyone who complains publicly about how they were treated as a member of a polygamy group is bad – mouthed, blacklisted, and ostacized. The Safety Net Committee no longer meets its stated purpose and should be dissolved.

  298. Here Here, I second the motion by BiB!

  299. I agree Born In Brooklyn. Safety Net started off with 700 thousand. After that was spent, they did a rebudget and then brought in PM at 300 plus thousand.

    From there there was a cut which from what I understand it to be about 146 thousand. Why?

    And from the meetings I’ve seen via the net that is exactly what I view those meetings to be. A pep rally for those breaking the law looking for ways to continue to do so.

    And then.. to hear that they’ve called people who have shared their stories liars and to be mistreated?

    I haven’t watched all the videos but will continue until I’ve seen them all. People connect for whatever reason. I personally connected with Brenda. It was as if she were sitting across my kitchen table sharing a cup of coffee and if she was my friend/family member sharing her life.

    Shame on PM for allowing such behaviour in any meeting. I don’t practice Polygamy. I am not FLDS, LDS and I could learn a little something from everyone.

  300. Silly Willie the Thug did not show up for his court hearing in St. George this morning. Sam Brower has a judgment against Willie for over $15,000 Sam had to pay for a frivolous lawsuit Willie brought against Sam.

    This morning, Sam’s attorney asked for an order to show cause – for contempt of court – and asked that a bench warrant be issued with a $2000 cash only bail.

    To give Willie the benefit of the doubt (and out of courtesy), Sam and his attorney waited 21 minutes after the designated court hearing time to see if Willie was just running late.

    Nope, Willie was a no show.

    Maybe Willie preferred to be in San Angelo at deadbeat dad, Merril Jessop’s, pre-trial hearing this morning.

    Willie has lots more splaining to do now – and he’ll likely get to start doing it after he’s arrested and has spent a few days in jail.

    What a MORON! Haven’t the FLDS people realized yet that the “Answer them nothing” technique doesn’t work in a court of law?

  301. Look up Don Timpsons statement to Judge Lindberg.

    And remember Willies walk in the Park with Shurtleff and members from the CPark?

    chemist- I understood the CPark transfer but what I don’t understand is the opened arms for CPark. Minus Warren Jeffs they were/are from the same teachings.

  302. Willie didn’t show up in Schleicher County. Merril was there and so was the elusive Leroy Johnson Steed.

  303. agree Born In Brooklyn. Safety Net started off with 700 thousand. After that was spent, they did a rebudget and then brought in PM at 300 plus thousand.

    Am I to understand from this that Pat Merkley is being paid 300,000 dollars per year ?
    She is one vastly overpaid social worker.

  304. It started out with 700 thousand.

    It was 300 plus thousand for her and I think one or two working under her. All the while they had access to Domestic Violence/Child Protection/counslers based on income etc.

    and then they supposedly put them as part time. Splitting the 146 thousand still using the programs already in place. Counseling and what ever other programs that are available to everyone.

    Why would a group of professionals need to be trained year after year on how to deal with a group of people who don’t want help? don’t need help? refuse help?

    But even if this Safety Net was eliminated it still begs the question as to … how much money and time is being spent on preventing the practice of Polygamy which is against the law and should be imo.

    What they’ve done imo is continue to put programs in place because it is known that there are abuses and will continue to be abuses. Allowing the practice to continue knowing full well that the victim lists grow.

    NO prevention. More excuses. 😦 No arrests.

  305. 2 thousand for Willie? and a possible arrest? All the crap he’s pulled and he might end up in jail because of the things he did to Sam? ( And I really like Sam)

    Merril in court for pretrial ?

    What is going on at the ranch? Is Merril still living there?

    I am not happy. I can’t say anything nice today. Sorry. Thinking about all this BS to continue on for generations makes me sick. I’ll come back when I get my tounge in check and a better attitude.

    And earlier into this thread I mentioned something about the good journalists/reporters out there… never did I mean to leave anyone out. There has been a lot of dedicated people reporting on the story. Randy and Kathy/Concho Valley/ Matthew Waller/ John D./ Mike Watkiss/ John H. and Brent H.
    and many more. And I’ve appreciated all of their hard work.

  306. HA

    Willie pulled a Warren. What will they do next?

  307. Willie and Warren Warrants. ha ha!

    Hey LE this is what Willie looks and sounds like!

  308. sltrib article on Willie and Wendel

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52083760-78/date-former-hearing-jessop.html.csp

  309. Another stupid narcissist bites the dust, Blago guilty of 17 of 20 counts.

    News at 11, on all the usual channels.

  310. Merrill told to stay in Texas.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2011/jun/27/flds-defendent-told-to-stay-in-texas/

  311. Yeah, except for medical issues. Which gives him a free ride to Utah to see doctors and whomever – but I bet Texas keeps tab on his time.

    So abuses may end that luxury, who knows may even get bail revoked.

    dont know why he would want to tool around anyway, spending money like its going out of style. I figure his money is spoken for pretty tight.

  312. …dont know why he would want to tool around anyway, spending money like its going out of style. I figure his money is spoken for pretty tight.

    But Carolyn still probably hasn’t seen a dime! I would say that his assets need to seized, but didn’t he sign them all away to keep from paying? Saying he was old and broke?

  313. A bit off topic…> I caught a show on TV last night…My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding…WOW. It may have already been discussed here [I’m too lazy to search all the old commets] Talk about sexualizing their young! Holy cow!Ttoddlers bumpimg and grinding at parties. Dresses in ‘hooker style’ clothing.
    The on topic part…> The girls a trained from walking age to SERVE THEIR MEN. They have very little, if any, choice. Pulled from school at 13-14 to marry [from what I could tell, when they are 16’ish]and have children, within their cultural group. The men have total control over every aspect of their lives. And they are not to question decision made by the man. The y[sy version of ‘keeping sweet’!
    I’ve seen many ‘travelers’, as they are called, when I’ve traveled thru England and Ireland, but I had no idea the real life they lead…other than they aren’t wanted around by most towns people.

  314. He was told he must have “leave of court” to go to Utah for doctor’s appointments. That means he has to ask permission.

    It is my understanding that Wendell is in Colorado living with one of his sons and has had a full physical by a non-FLDS doctor. He apparently has some serious medical issues of his own.

  315. Sorry abt the typos… The Gypsy version of ‘keeping sweet’

  316. You know, our old friend “Nevermissashot” hasn’t been in the Washington County mugshots lately. I wonder if he is incarcerated or if he has cleaned up his act and is walking the straight and narrow.

  317. Bib

    sltrib on the brain

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52020162-78/brain-citicoline-todd-yurgelun.html.csp

  318. My favorite Willie Jessop video:

    I’m going from St George to the North Rim next week. Any good stops? I’ve seen Pipe Springs recently but not much else past their in a long time.

  319. You know, our old friend “Nevermissashot” hasn’t been in the Washington County mugshots lately. I wonder if he is incarcerated or if he has cleaned up his act and is walking the straight and narrow.

    Anonymous said this on June 27, 2011 at 6:56 PM

    Don’t bet on Roger ever cleaning up his act. He has been a pain in the butt “nogooder” for years. He is probably still in Purgatory Jail.

  320. Willie thought he was being so cute in this video. He didn’t win any brownie points for this deposition, that’s for sure. Even his attorney was telling him to answer the question. All he proved is that he is good at playing games. Apparently, given today’s lack of appearance, he still is.

    We didn’t make any stops on our way from St. George to the North Rim except in the Creek. We stopped at a residence and the Border Store both going and coming.

  321. Anonymous said this on June 27, 2011 at 7:42 PM

    I highly recommend the pioneer museums in Kanab, but don’t waste your time on going to the Movie Museum there – what a joke! Other than having the cabin from the movie “Outlaw Josie Wales” it was a TOTAL waste of time.

    The pioneer museum in Hurricane is very interesting.

    The Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Kanab is fascinating. They have a $40 million dollar PER YEAR budget. They spend $90,000 PER DAY pampering those critters. It is really like the Ritz Carlton Resort for animals!

    If you go there, ask them to show you the house where the prophetess lived (it started out as a cult). It is ALL black granite inside – everything! I doubt if they will, but it doesn’t hurt to ask.

    Just be careful, one of the critters might “adopt” you while you tour the property. It happened to me a couple of months ago and I had to jump through all of the hoops (worse than foster care) to bring the little temptress home. They are real particular about who adopts their critters … and rightly so!

  322. Anonymous said this on June 27, 2011 at 6:56 PM , I did check out the current status of Roger Nevermissashot and he is not in Purgatory Jail.

    Maybe he bailed out or was transferred somewhere else. If he was transferred, then good riddance for us!

    Keep your eyes peeled though, more than likely he’ll be back !!!

    https://news.washeriff.net/inmate-roster/

  323. Anon 7:42pm: I’m going from St George to the North Rim next week.

    I stayed at North Rim several years back and it was a near religious experience! The beauty, the peace and quiet*, the little cabins with squirrels and deer popping their heads in. And at night, the stars! Enjoy! It’s a pretty drive in, too. I called it the 40 mile driveway to Heaven. I highly recommend the night walks, if the Rangers still give them. [Take a flash light.]

    *We were there at the end of the season, so it wasn’t crowded and, hence, quieter.

  324. That video of Willie is hilarious! So, I take it he hates court and all the truth tellin he is forced to do…

    Sam really called him on his bluff, now he has a Warrant.

    Who gives these guys legal advice, anyway?

  325. mc199, if you are actually at the north rim on Monday, July 4th, then there really won’t be anyone around you. We went there for lunch a few years ago on July 4th and it was empty. We asked the park ranger why and he said it is because they don’t allow fireworks in the park, so no one comes there to celebrate July 4th.

    I don’t know how crowed it will get later in the week, but the 4th should be quiet.

    Enjoy!

  326. i agree mc, it was a beautiful drive from the Creek to the North Rim.

  327. A bit off topic…> I caught a show on TV last night…My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding…WOW.
    mc199 said this on June 27, 2011 at 6:29 PM

    Yes, MC199, I have been watching it too. At least with fundy morman there is the lofty goal of one day being a god/goddess. But, for these folks it seems their parents are so strict that the girls goals are to grow up fast so they can get out from under their parent’s thumb.

    I have been amazed by it. And I really thank God every day for the wonderful parents I had growing up who told me as a girl that I could do anything I set my mind to.

  328. Well if weeWillie “Thug” Jessop is a spokesperson for the FLDS Church on the steps of several Courthouses across the US and he claims that the faithful members are all,”honest and decent and hard-working individuals”, how is it that he now has an outstanding bench warrant for ‘Failure to Appear’. The hard-working, decent and honest people that are in my hometown have a respect for the Law and Courts and wouldn’t dream of defying an order to appear in Court without making a good explanation or reason prior to the appointed date. Willie as he has displayed on numerous occasions gives broad interpretations to most folks definition to honest or decent interpretations. I think that his no show is yet another example of how incredible Willie is when it comes to telling the truth or doing the proper act. He commented to the Press and Public that ‘Child Bride’ celestial sealings weren’t practiced in his FLDS Church sect. He later stated that although they hadn’t practiced minor sealments, that future ‘Child Bride’ sealings would be curtailed and believers would be told to end/stop the practice. I found this statement to be incredible back then and given his latest lawless behavior I an reminded that Willie R. “Thug” Jessop is not a credible spokesperson for the FLDS Church, he simply and routinely mistates the facts, evidence and truth to be believable.

    Still wondering who gets the nod to speak on behalf of the FLDS Church when Warren Steed Jeffs goes to trial, the revelations will be national news and Willie will be nowhere to be found nor able to state anything about events that would be accepted as truthful by the Press or Public.

  329. …or FLDS for that matter.

  330. willy was ex’d back in january, so its very unlikely that he’ll be their spokesman

  331. Guess now that he is out of the Church he is done with being honest and truthful?

    har har har

  332. Willie R. Jessop has stated that he was not exed or ‘hnadled’ but merely told to,”Clean-up his act’. Now that he is wanted for a bench warrant he probably is, again, in good standing with Bishop Lyle Jeffs in Hildale. Willie R. Jessop has disavowed the prophet Warren S. Jeffs for his under age sealings to the 12 and 14 year old ‘Child Brides’ which is a pending Grand Jury charge and not yet a conviction. Maybe, Willie R. knows more about Jeffs guilt/innocence than he is letting us know about. In 2008, Willie said turning one’s back on the Prophet Jeffs was tantamount to denying Jesus Christ, ironic ain’t it.

  333. we are taught that warren steed jeffs is as God to us, so Lyle would’t still be bishop and fellowship someone that doesn’t believe in Warren anymore. Willy is out.one that doesn’t believe in Warren anymore. Willy is out.

  334. So Anon @4:45, who will be the spin doctor for Warren’s trial?

  335. Remember Willie R’s statement? —-
    “I loved who Mr. Jeffs was, when I thought I knew who he was and who he stood for,” Willie R. Jessop said Thursday. “But what came to light in Texas is morally indefensible.” If other members of the FLDS saw the evidence filtering out, most of which has yet to be made public, he believes they wouldn’t support Jeffs. “I don’t know of anyone I associate with within the church [that] would defend or endorse what Mr. Jeffs has done,” he said.
    .

    Sooo, I sure do wonder what Willie knows that we don’t know “which has yet to be made public.”

  336. What do you mean by spin? Warren Steed Jeffs is God’s prophet, and to question his calling and right to have as many wifes, whatever their age, is anti-christ and beyond the right of any man or man-made government to say otherwise!!!as many wifes, whatever their age, is anti-christ and beyond the right of any man or man-made government to say otherwise!!!

  337. Anon

    I dont see where you come off. No one else got the memo.

    We realize there are a lot of things y’all make up on a whim and an urge –

    people who question this abusive, degenerate mortal man is not anti-Christ, its anti-cult.

    BTW, Lyle will be by shortly. Hide!

  338. “we are taught that warren steed jeffs is as God to us, so Lyle would’t still be bishop and fellowship someone that doesn’t believe in Warren anymore. Willy is out.one that doesn’t believe in Warren anymore. Willy is out.”

    Warren Steed Jeffs is God to you? My friend, I would suggest that you read the King James Bible that you profess to believe in. You just made a blasphemous statement.

  339. BIB

    Like I said – no one else got the memo. And its too bad, because their God needs some TALL GREEN to keep his attorneys paid on time!

    So remember when you whip out your wallet, its for GOD!

    or mebbe not!

  340. Warren Steed Jeffs is God’s prophet, and to question his calling and right to have as many wifes, whatever their age, is anti-christ and beyond the right of any man or man-made government to say otherwise!!!as many wifes, whatever their age, is anti-christ and beyond the right of any man or man-made government to say otherwise!!!

    ===================
    I have just as much right to declare Warren as not being God’s prophet as you do to say he is. God ain’t come and had a face to face visit with either one of us–and if there is one thing to learn in life, anyone who says God has personally talked to them–RUN!

  341. Anonymous thinks that the government has no right to dictate how many wives someone has ? Again, read the New Testament which you profess belief in … Romans 13: 1-5. If you call yourself a Christian, you must obey all laws of the land – it is commanded.

  342. Anonymous thinks that the government has no right to dictate how many wives someone has ? Again, read the New Testament which you profess belief in … Romans 13: 1-5. If you call yourself a Christian, you must obey all laws of the land – it is commanded.
    Born in Brooklyn said this on June 28, 2011 at 8:13 PM

    Not only Bible is ignored by Warren Jeffs and his followers, the ignore the founding prophet of Mormonism, Joseph Smith who said:

    12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

    IMO Warren Jeffs never read this part of the Articles of Faith of the Mormon Church. If ole Warren the felonious profit had obeyed this little item he wouldn’t be facing the rest of his life wearing the all white clothing of the Texas prison inmate. Yes sir ole Warrens going to be singing those Texas prison blues, lordy, lordy he’s going to sing those Texas prison blues.

  343. Anon, Warren Jeffs is not God nor God’s chosen. The God I believe in allows everyone to talk to him and he doesn’t need some pervert to tell people what he (God) wants them to do. Warren is a fake and you and all of his followers will know it when you see what all he has done.

    I mean come on 108 pages with over 700 bad acts. That’s a bit over the top, but I’m guessing they just skimmed the surface and didn’t have to dig all that deep to come up with that many.

    As for spin, yes, Warren will need a dedicated spindoctor once his trial starts on July 25. You need to stay tune to this blog if you want to know the truth about your “God”.

  344. I’d say this latest attempt at “spin” flew off the handle and hit the fan, along with the rest of the road apples.

    Warren is going to face justice in a few weeks, and he can explain it to the judge..

    Maybe she will listen… and then again mebbe not.

  345. PT said:…once his trial starts on July 25.

    How appropriate that I begin local jury duty on that day! I doubt we have a trial waiting here that encompasses this scope…but, ya never know. I’ll be carrying my Kindle to keep up. I don’t wanna miss a thing!

  346. You’re lucky, here we can’t take any electronic devices in the courthouse.

  347. Just because some prosecutor has come up with 700 pages of “bad acts” doesn’t change the fact that Warren is God’s prophet, the jews in jesus’s day didn’t believe in him and presented pilate with many of jesus’s so called “bad acts”, which didn’t change the facts of his divinity and calling.

  348. Eh, Anonymous, Jesus did not “marry” 12 year olds or send them across international borders to be married.

  349. Anon @10:36, let me just make one thing perfectly clear to you. Warren Jeffs is not in the same league as Jesus. Lucifer maybe, but Jesus, no way. The fact that you could even bring this up is laughable. Warren Jeffs uses the Bible when and only if it serves his purpose. Otherwise, he could care less what the Bible says.

    I truly feel sorry for you because you are one of his sheeple who are living a totally deluded life.

  350. You beat me to that one BiB.

  351. Oh, BTW, it’s 108 pages containing 700 bad acts, although I’ll pass along your contention that there are 700 pages worth.

  352. Anon 7:42pm: I’m going from St George to the North Rim next week.

    Go to Kanab Fort!!! It’s a bit of hike but WELL worth it. Don’t go see the pioneer stuff in the kanab museum….go out there and see it for yourself in its original spot.

    Also, Kanab fireworks, the best in state I’ve seen so far. They are set off from behind the city park. But instead of seeing them from the park (it’s much too crowded) get a little closer and see them in the adjacent baseball park.

    Enjoy the trip1

  353. Well annonymous Flds what’s up with Warren’s warning to the Nation? What’s up with his being freed from prison by some miraculous act? What happened with Warren’s federal flight, I thought he was invisible to his detractors but the Highway Patrolman seemed to see the ‘Escalade’ and it’s riders without any trouble? What great spiritual message or purpose is going to be served to rot in prison for the remainder of WS Jeffs life? How’s that,”Answer Them Nothing” thingy working out for y’all?

  354. I have just as much right to declare Warren as not being God’s prophet as you do to say he is. God ain’t come and had a face to face visit with either one of us–and if there is one thing to learn in life, anyone who says God has personally talked to them–RUN!

    cement said this on June 28, 2011 at 7:55 PM

    YES, you are so right, cement!

  355. It appears that I have be remiss in my duties.

    Anonymous at 6:46 PM

    FU

    Love, Fred

  356. He he he

    And from what I’ve read, Warren should be wearing a red cape to hide his forked tail.

    Every single thing he has done has been a bad act, from what I’ve seen.

    Hmm – the good ole days, cant recall any good that Hamster has done for the peeps.

    Anyway, he is riding the FLDS like he stole it…

    Oh wait…. he did…

  357. Dear Anonymous,
    if God is good and strives to bring justice, peace, and love to the world and to each individual soul, in what way has Warren Jeffs served as God’s emissary?
    Has WJ brought peace?
    Has WJ made decisions that fostered love and caring between individuals?
    Has WJ ever helped individuals in pain?

    Or has he only said: Do this to prove that YOU love God? Or that God tells me to tell you to do this because YOU have been bad?

    Either answer is your own and part of your faith.

    But if your answer is the second then I grieve for you and the sad world that your God rules.

  358. Anonymous – You might find this interesting.
    http://mormonfailure.blogspot.com/2009/10/lessons-from-zina-huntington.html

  359. Here,here HHG…great comment!

    Warren’s no Prince of Peace rather a Master of Disasters. He’s written his warnings and prophetic word to many Nations, so let’s just see what comes of his holey words. Just keeping initial score Warren in all of his ‘heavenly revelations’ seems to have successfully missed making any mention of the nuclear reactors meltdown and tsunami that devistated Japan, oopsie. Then there are the major floods in the midwest but the prophet only mentions earthquakes of which there have been none but geologists feel some now identified faults in the Mississippi Valley could release sizable quakes and have in the past. Warren’s warning claims that no major quakes have ever occurred in these regions before but the scientists say otherwise. Warren has now built a wannabe Temple in Eldorado, Texas but when is he going to build the real Temple in Independence, MO? Seems like Warren has placed so many markers out there about the future, something is bound to come in simply based upon the ‘Law of Averages’ and not any heavenly guidance(s).

  360. What do you mean by spin? Warren Steed Jeffs is God’s prophet, and to question his calling and right to have as many wifes, whatever their age, is anti-christ and beyond the right of any man or man-made government to say otherwise!!!as many wifes, whatever their age, is anti-christ and beyond the right of any man or man-made government to say otherwise!!!

    ——————————————–

    Why does Warren need so many wives if Christ himself declared that there is no marriage in Heaven?

    At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. ~ Matthew 22:30

  361. Annonymous FLDS faithful member, I thought you ought to know that your prophet Jeffs has told all Warrenites to refrain from accessing the internet. We wouldn’t want to lead you into temptation but you seem to have tempted yourself beyond where your beloved and jailed Seer and Revelator would place you. Now run along before the ‘Gentiles’ gettya and don’t forget to say your prayers because as Warren Jeffs follower you’re gonna need them.

  362. To the believer in Warren Jeffs. While I do not believe warren jeffs is a prophet I do admire your devotion to what you belive in. Y

  363. I was thinking along the same lines CAJim. The Anon FLDS member must have missed Lyle’s memo about staying off the interent. I wonder if they got the $2000 tithe memo or the “turn in your excess” memo.

  364. To the believer in Warren Jeffs;
    1) Why is it some live way high on the hog while others live in poverty? Where is the fairness in that? Why did Warren live better than everyone else? A loving devoted prophet would put his flock’s needs well before his own. Mother Teresa is the prime current day example. Read her story.
    2) Why are women and children treated like property with no rights? Why does he take away their freedom to choose their own mates and life? My God loves all and treats all equally. My loving God gave us all the freedom to make our own choices.
    3) Why did Warren kick out the young men and all of you turn your back on them? My God would NEVER abandon ANY of his children. Why do you not believe in the Parable of the Prodigal Son in the Bible? How can you sleep at night knowing you abandoned your male children? No matter what they may or may not have done, they are still your flesh and blood! They deserve your love and support without question!
    4) Why does Warren now say the creek is doomed? Why did he just turn his back on the creek? Why did he not go to the creek, love them and teach them where they went wrong? Why did he not do everything in his power to bring all back into the fold? My God and the local pastors of their flocks would never turn their back on anyone!

    Believer of Warren Jeffs; YOU are a child of GOD and deserve to be loved, cherished and live a happy fulfilled life. GOD is not negative

    -ok I will now step down from my soapbox.

  365. BRAVO, Watergirl well spoken! You didn’t mention the ‘Lands of Refuge’ and why were there only a select group being chosen from the brethren? Did the believer in Warren Jeffs endorse leaving celestial wives, children and extended family behind in Short Creek, just to be called to the Zion Mission and become a ‘Templebuilder’? What kind of prophet abandons his sheep and forms newer flocks in enclaves when the ‘EndTime’ is announced? Can the FLDS Church both claim their being legally trepassed against concerning their UEP Trust and follow the revelations of Jeffs that clearly states that,”…the flock shall be scattered”. There is an obvious dichotomy here either preserving the United Order or shattering the clay pot, but no one can’t do both and the FLDS Church is in direct opposition to itself. Mixed messages come from a source other than the Divined Word.

  366. I like your soapbox Watergirl.

  367. Watergirl

    Here, here!

    2nd the motion!

  368. Canadians tired of Polygamists scooting kiddies across the border?

    Methinks they are running about confused…

    http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20110619/OPINION01/306199957/-1/opinion

  369. Watergirl,
    Well stated !

  370. Maybe if they’d patrol the borders around Bountiful like that there wouldn’t be so much human trafficking going on.

  371. Ahhhhh… but where there’s a will there’s a way.

    This may be a teensy bit off topic, but can anyone point me to that photo of Warren and Naomie having their picture taken in full regalia on a motorcycle?

  372. Easy rider – or was it Easy write off?

    Dont think Warren would last long on a bike, he would crash and burn it like everything else.

  373. I think I recall a couple of nice pictures of Warren and Naomi all dressed up as ‘Gentiles’ but standing in shorts next to a red Cadillac ‘Escalade’. So much for the modesty of their dress and they both have those befuddled fugitive under-arrest poses. Check out the pictures at the HOPE organization photo bucket.

  374. State charges against Mitchell in the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping case to be dropped. Read more:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705375376/Prosecutors-move-to-drop-state-charges-against-Elizabeth-Smarts-kidnapper.html

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52098353-78/mitchell-state-smart-case.html.csp

    Appears that since Mitchell has now been convicted with a life without parole sentence, it would be point less to have a trial. If some how the defense lawyers won an appeal the state charges could be refiled, or case could be retried at federal level.

    Guess this polygamist case is winding down with Warren Jeffs case just getting started, IMO opinion Mitchell and Jeffs are two sides of the same coin, and the results for Jeffs will be the same, life without possibility of parole.

  375. I think I recall a couple of nice pictures of Warren and Naomi all dressed up as ‘Gentiles’ but standing in shorts next to a red Cadillac ‘Escalade’. So much for the modesty of their dress and they both have those befuddled fugitive under-arrest poses. Check out the pictures at the HOPE organization photo bucket.
    CAJim said this on June 29, 2011 at 4:14 PM

    IMO you got it right, here’s links to the photos from Hope Org.

  376. Great boogly joogly! He looks like a badly dressed American tourist, and she looks like a deer caught in the headlights!

  377. In memory of Warren, because we know how much he likes the Beatles, and cuz…

    His Band is on the Run,,,

  378. So the prosecution is going to play some of warren’s sex tapes at his trial–wow!

    http://www.hd.net/blogs/2011/06/correspondent-notes-telling-the-prophet-to-shove-it/

  379. Arnold Richter, you totally rock and are my new hero!!!!!

  380. Another bogus citation for another bogus criminal trespass! The usual run of the mill carp from local LE. I hope the news crew fights in in court. It could lead them to another story line of bogus police! WHEN are they [local LE] gonna be decertified! This is getting old!

  381. Great find, thanks!

    ” I’m told by law enforcement the world will be shocked when the trial reveals details of sexual rituals led by Jeffs behind the walls of his monstrous temple on the Yearning For Zion ranch.

    The plan, by state prosecutors, is to play the audio tapes from those incidents in the courtroom. But Jeffs’ followers may not hear about it.

    But Jeffs’ followers may not hear about it. They’ve been (recently) banned from using the internet, and they don’t watch television news”

    ==============================

    Perhaps if folks put flyers on the windows of Polygamist cars shopping at Walmart etc while they are out and about, the word will spread a lil faster

    😉

  382. It never works to pull the wool over sheeples eyes – humans are smart – they will figure it out.

    Sometimes they need to hear the facts and then hear them again.

  383. Well, the fundamentalists are not innovators of new relegious thoughts or practices. Rather they are orthodox and aspire to preserve and perpetuate the original tenets and more fervent religious beliefs. So if there are new Temple rituals to be revealed and proven to have been enacted by the Warrenites, my question is where did these rituals originate? Are these revived from past Temple pratices, not generally known to have existed. If so the reveberations of these rituals or rites being resurrected may have far greater consequences than just exposing the fundamentalist LDS Church fanaticism. It sure seems to me like there are other insiders who have aided in this investigation prior to the YFZ Rescue attempt, are we going to find out who Sheriff Doran’s informants were and their names?

  384. If they play those Temple Tapes everybody is going to hear about it, even Tony Alamo and he in prison.

  385. Thanks Annonymous 6/29@11:04PM for your HDNet blog report from Carol McKinley, I think it reveals why Willie “Thug” Jessop has recently disavowed his support of the Prophet Warren Steed Jeffs. Po’Willie he has to be feeling pretty low to have been duped into defending the profits behaviors over the past 2+ years only to find out that much of the evidence will be presented at trial. I guess I, also, understand why ModPharisee has attempted to distance himself from the ‘False’ Prophet and his polugynist ways but MadeWacky and “Vulture” are standing firm in Jeffs’ camp on ‘Due Process’ and Constitutional Freedoms concerns. Of course, they ain’t too concerned about the FLDS ‘Child Brides’.

    Maybe BillMadeWacky and “Vulture” are just too dumb to understand fundamentalist LDS extremests beliefs and felonious practices. I recall that they both refused to read any of Jeffs’ dictations ‘cuz they would be honoring illegal search warrants(and it buys them some time to live in their denials). See y’all at trial Boyz!

  386. If those Temple tapes scared the hair off of Willie Jessop, the three stooges are going to have a lot of fun finding ways to still keep holding them high.

    I think once Warren’s trial is over, even hard core FLDS are going to find it diffi – cult to keep swallowing the koolaid.

    The FLDS are blind but they arent dumb.

  387. I can’t believe Merril is letting Warren go to trial before he (Merril) does. After it gets out what happened to the 12 year old he gave to the profit and presided over the marriage of, he’ll be lucky if he doesn’t spend the rest of his life in prison.

    Merril knows what the evidence is so he’s a fool for not pushing to have his trial first. He can kiss any sort of leniency goodbye.

  388. The HD Net World Report about Telling the Profit to Shove It will air July 12th.

  389. Hey you guys I have some really good news. Do you remember me talking about following a group of people who were/are facing some incredibly tough times. they have for many years. Child abuse, Domestic Violence, drugs, lack of education, discrimination, murder, suicides etc.

    I have seen signs that someone is listening. AND there are signs that different agencies are taking steps to help. They are following thru with some of things that they said they would do.

    AND… on another topic.. it has been announced that the Mountain Meadows Massacre site is now considered a National historical landmark.

    This is really good news. For a lot of reasons. The good guys are listening.
    They are watching. They are doing.

    Boy oh boy do I feel better.

  390. Eh, Anonymous, Jesus did not “marry” 12 year olds or send them across international borders to be married.

  391. Zina Huntington, plural wife of Joseph Smith, describing “romance” in polygamy in an article published in New York World in 1869 :

    “The successful polygamous wife must regard her husband with indifference, and with no other feeling but reverence, for love we regard as false sentiment; a feeling which should have no existence in polygamy.”

  392. Glad to hear it Walton.

  393. MerryB, consider your quote next to St. Paul’s,” If I speak in human and angelic tongues, but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing”. 1 Corinthians 13: 1-2

    Paul didn’t view love as ‘false sentiment’ but a spiritual essence,”So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love”.
    1 Corinthians 13: 13.

    Zina got led down a false path of evil in denying the essential element of love.

  394. Looks like some new jobs may be coming to the Colorado City area –

    Supervisors to consider letter in support of uranium mining industry
    http://www.mohavedailynews.com/articles/2011/06/30/news/local/doc4e0c2079886ea116551903.txt

  395. Mining, timber industry and railroads have not been historical employers to most FLDS Church members. They tend to be unionized labor, Federally regulated and large corporate enterprises that the fundamentalists frown upon. Basically, few fundies work outside of businesses that aren’t controlled or owned by FLDS Church contractors or entities. Large out of state corporates are much more likely to toss them for poor performance than tolerate their clandestine behaviors and lifestyles.

  396. Winston Blackmore is scheduled to begin his tax charges case on 23 January, 2012 in BC, Canada. He has been denied any protection from questionings at trial for himself or any of his relations, so the information that will be revealed should speed along the Royal Mounties sex trafficking investigation, if new charges have not yet been brought. Poor Winston, first he triggered the BS Supreme Court reference case concerning polygamy laws and was forced to boycott the proceedings because his legal expenses would be foisted upon the Canadian public. Now he again wishes to remain silent but he will be forced to answer his evasive tax practices and reveal the inner workings of his plural marriages.

  397. CAJim: Mining, timber industry and railroads have not been historical employers to most FLDS….

    And they don’t hire underaged workers and keep their wages under the guise of tything, either.

  398. The National Parks down that way are loaded with uranium &c.

  399. Appears that since Mitchell has now been convicted with a life without parole sentence, it would be point less to have a trial. If some how the defense lawyers won an appeal the state charges could be refiled, or case could be retried at federal level.
    Guess this polygamist case is winding down with Warren Jeffs case just getting started, IMO opinion Mitchell and Jeffs are two sides of the same coin, and the results for Jeffs will be the same, life without possibility of parole.

    —————————-

    It is too bad the Warren Jeffs has not had the media attention that Mitchell got. It is probably because kidnapping a little girl right out of her bedroom is a sensational crime that triggers universal fears and emotions.

    But I feel the FLDS child brides are victims, in a way, of a more heinous crime, because their own parents hand them over as sexual sacrifices to appease a false god. Warren Jeffs is not Christ, nor has he led a Christian life in any way, shape or form.

  400. How about a international syndicate that supplies ‘Child Brides’ for import and export to the prophet, bishops and priesthood zealots all under the thinly veiled claim of a religious tenet. Marrying girls brought from outside of the US and then some US citizens are sealed to foreigners is about as heinous as anything Mr. Mitchell did but the FLDS Church did it on a far larger scale, say over 50+’Child Brides’ imported/exported in the past decade. Sex trafficking and labor abuse is on the rise in Canada and this paticular illicit enterprise of the FLDS Church needs to be stopped and broken up.

  401. Perhaps warren’s bad acts and the flds in general will get more publicity when his trial takes place. I surely hope so, they have had a low profile far too long.

  402. Temple Tapes, and those 700 bad acts, it’ll write a new chapter in the FLDS book.

    Something to tell the Grandkids.

    “Back in the day…”

  403. Wendell Loy Nielsen has filed through his Attorney David L. Botsford for a second continuance for his trial proceedings, quoting health reasons as the cause. Likely another continuance can be granted if the cause is verified and Wendell is able to give a Texas residency address. Funny how frail these boys health gets as the Justice date draws near.

  404. It has been awihile, but I’m back. I’ve written a new article on FLDS101 that analyzes Warren’s petition to the President and revelaton to the USA. I show some interesting paralells to a similar petition back in 1845 by Mormon leaders. See: http://flds101.blogspot.com/2009/05/warrens-petition-to-president.html

  405. Regarding hiring for uranium mining in AZ: Actually there is a huge push to ban mining near the Grand Canyon for the next 20 years. They are not hiring, they are just sending a letter saying they don’t want the ban. It is not likely that it will do any good. The industry has a very long ugly history of poisoning the water and ground in that area. Most likely a 20 year ban will happen.

    http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/06/21/20110621env-canyon0621.html

  406. FLDS101 – thanks for all you do to keep telling the truth on the internet.

  407. CAJim, Wendell did that before his hearing last Monday. His health issues have been verified by a non-FLDS doctor in Colorado where he is living with his son. For now, the Judge, Prosecution and bailbondsman have all OK’d him living in Colorado. It seems that while Wendell was in the FLDS his health issues were never addressed.

  408. On the topic of Mr. WL Neilsen, I am struck at another issue that never seemed to have come up in his Utah and Arizona days. Namely he is now indicted for bigamy with his last three (3) wives in Texas but never faced this charge/problem for the past 25+years while residing in Utah/Arizona?
    Texas Grand Jury has indicted him for three 3RD Degree Felony counts for plural wives #19, #20 & # 21 but no charges were ever brought concerning wives #02 thru #18. I know that Utah AG Mark Shurtleff states that he isn’t going to charge any polygamist for mere bigamy law violations but 17 felony violations adds up to a fairly toxic level of lawless activity to tolerate. Wendell, so far, has been able to forestall the wheels of justice from reaching him in Texas but his outlaw escape of 17 felony counts of known bigamy statute violations creates a lawless environment in Utah and Arizona which is very puzzling and perverted to me.

  409. Why is the recent post of FLDS 101 dated May 2009, given that it reflects recent events ?

  410. Date used just to sort the articles. One of these days I’ll fix that.

  411. …Or, I did write this in 2009 and I’m just a better prophet then Warren.

  412. Anon 11:18

    “The National Parks down that way are loaded with uranium &c.”

    ————————

    More the reason Warren dusted his shoes when he went through Shortcreek!

    Or was it the nuclear environment living in those homes?

  413. CAJim said this on July 1, 2011 at 3:26 PM

    Good observation CAJim. Sadly, what you said is absolutely true.

    Maybe that is why Utah’s state motto is “Life Elevated” instead of “Life FUBAR”.

    Please keep all of this BS in mind as you read about Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman campaigning to become OUR next US Presidential candidate.

    Both of these men are staunch, rich, Republican LDS church members from Utah.

    I say that not because I am against Republicans, but I am just afraid of these 2 Republican presidential candidates!

    No offense to anyone here, but do we really want the LDS Church running this nation?

    Does anyone what our country’s slogan to be:

    USA…. FUBAR.

  414. The “Temple Tapes,” which Jon Krakauer talked about – were they evidence that was gathered during the raid, or from the red Cadillac or another source?

    The FLDS apologists won’t be able to whine and complain about the legality of evidence obtained from Warren’s vehicle, so that’s going to be a very interesting part of the case, I think.

    Warren Jeffs is so . . . icky porn watching creepy . . . it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if he had elevated his child deflowering into some kind of perverted altar sacrament.

  415. Mitt Romney was born in Detroit and was raised in Michigan. His father was born in Mexico. Mitt’s wife was born in Michigan. She was not LDS, but did convert to LDS while in High School in Michigan.

  416. Mitt Romney is a descendant of Parley Pratt isn’t he one of the Twelve Apostles? Why would Mitt’s father be living in Mexico, did his family live in one of the polygamist colonies?

  417. Yes, Mitt Romney’s father, George W Romney, was born in one of the mormon colonies in Mexico. An article from Wikedia on the Romney family.

    “Romney’s grandparents were polygamous Mormons who fled the United States with their children because of the federal government’s opposition to polygamy.[1] His maternal grandfather was Helaman Pratt (1846–1909), who presided over the Mormon mission in Mexico City before moving to the state of Chihuahua and who was the son of original Mormon apostle Parley P. Pratt (1807–1857).[2][3] Romney’s uncle Rey L. Pratt (1878–1931) would in the 1920s play a major role in the preservation and expansion of the Mormon presence in Mexico and in its introduction to South America.[4] Romney’s parents were Gaskell Romney (1871–1955), who was not polygamous, and Anna Amelia Pratt; they married in 1895 in Mexico.[1][3] A more distant kinsman was George Romney (1734–1802), a noted portrait painter in Britain during the last quarter of the 18th century.[5]

    George Wilcken Romney was thus born in Colonia Dublán, Galeana, in the Mexican state of Chihuahua – one of the Mormon colonies in Mexico – on July 8, 1907, to American parents.[1][6] George had three older brothers and would gain two more brothers and a sister.[7] Gaskell Romney was a successful carpenter, house builder, and farmer who headed the most prosperous family in the colony.[8][9]

    The Mexican Revolution broke out in 1910 and the Mormon colonies were endangered in 1911–1912 by raids from marauders,[10] including “Red Flaggers” Pascual Orozco and José Inés Salazar.[11] Young George heard the sound of distant gunfire and saw rebels walking through the village streets.[11][12] The Romney family fled and returned to the United States in July 1912, leaving their home and almost all of their property behind.[1][13] Romney would later say, “We were the first displaced persons of the 20th century.”[14]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Romney#Early_life

  418. Why would Mitt’s father be living in Mexico, did his family live in one of the polygamist colonies?

    CAJim said this on July 2, 2011 at 7:06 AM

    He SURE did CAJim. Mitt’s father, George Romney, was born and raised in one of the Mormon polygamous communities in Mexico. I think it was Colonia Dublin but it may have been Colonia Juarez.

  419. Mitt’s father was born in Colonia Dublán, Galeana, in the Mexican state of Chihuahua in 1907. The Romny family left Mexico in 1912 when Geoge Romney was about 5 years of age.

  420. I thought polygamy was illegal in Mexico and the United States? I understand that the polygamous enclaves in Mexico are a seperate community and self-contained, much like what we see today in Pringle, SD, Mancos, CO and Eldorado, TX. Just because the Order is practiced outside of the US, like in Bountiful, BC, Canada doesn’t lend it some air of legitimacy, if in fact that country’s laws are being ignored and violated, as well.

  421. It appears that polygamy may have been legal in Mexico in the late 1800s when the Mormon colonies were started

    http://www.bluemountainshadows.org/Vol1/Issue1Mormons.htm

    “Because of the Edmund Tucker Act passed in 1887, which outlawed polygamy, the Latter-Day Saints or Mormons were harassed by the government and the people of the United States.
    LDS Church president John Taylor advised many of the polygamous families to migrate to Mexico where President Porfirio Diaz assured the Church there were no laws against polygamy. (1) This article discusses what it was like to live in Mexico, why some of the Mormons returned to the United States and why many of them eventually came to San Juan County, Utah to live.”

  422. Another and very revealing treatise on the early Mormon settlements in Mexico is by the son, namely H. Grant Ivins, of the first mission President Anthony W. Ivins titled “Polygamy in Mexico as Practiced by the Mormon Church, 1895-1905”. Wherein the official policy directed by the LDS leadership in Salt Lake was to officially deny the presence of polygamy in the Mexican settlements as a policy. The ability to move back and forth across this international border as a convenience for the Mexican colonists is much like the Bountiful, Canada practices that are revealed today. Many of the children from these Mexican colonies educated themselves and repatriated themselves when they chose, much like the FLDS ‘Child Bride’ situation in Canada(wherein many BC residents have achieveved higher education dgrees from the University of Utah, even though their secondary degrees seem to have never been achieved.

  423. In Mexico it’s about like Utah, the government has not bothered polygamists, so far. Their farms are too productive, perhaps contribute so much to Mexico’s economy, meat dairy fruit and vegetables?

  424. much like the FLDS ‘Child Bride’ situation in Canada(wherein many BC residents have achieveved higher education dgrees from the University of Utah, even though their secondary degrees seem to have never been achieved.

    CAJim said this on July 2, 2011 at 1:48 PM

    Are you sure it’s the University of Utah (in Salt Lake City)?

    I thought the FLDS went to Southern Utah University (in Cedar City).

    Regardless, it has been disclosed that the Bountiful school provides a high school “diploma” that is not recognized as such outside of the Bountiful community.

  425. I always enjoy reading the part in Mormon history (after the 1890 Manifesto) where the LDS are telling the folks in Washington DC that there are no new polygamous “marriages” going on, and all the while couples are being sent down to Mexico with letters from the LDS leaders in Salt Lake City instructing President Anthony W. Ivins to “seal” them in a polygamous “marriage.”

    It reminds me of Willie the Thug’s comments about child bride “marriages.”

    Who us?

  426. Thanks Annonymous, yes I meant the Southern Utah University in Cedar City.

    Yes, the parallels to past LDS Church behaviors are mimicked by todays FLDS Church prophets and leadership, haunting isn’t it. Anthony W. Ivins statement about why he refused the US Senate’s Smoots hearing summons is equally revealing, he had two objections to appearing first it wasn’t the business of the US Senate to launch an inquiry into his Mexican missions(even though it was where American citizens were performing celestial sealings) and his second reason for his refusal is he didn’t want to appear and be forced to perjure himself, of course if he just told the truth he wouldn’t have committed perjury but would have likely have been apsotated from the LDS Church. Does anyone else see the parallels to todays FLDS Church saga?

  427. The story of Jason Williams fight against the FLDS church.

  428. Thanks PT, the stalwart, unflinching, freedom loving and totally brave journalist Mike Watkiss. His eyes, focus, clarion call and act to end this oppression has been like a juggernaut of facts and truth. Wnenever I am asked about which local reporter knows the history and has been unrelenting in pursuit of this story I mention Mike Warkiss, he’s received an award from the FBI for his efforts and the Arizona convictions in 2005 and before that since Warren S. Jeffs usurped his position as interloper of the FLDS Church.

  429. CAJim, I’ve read Jason Williams’ book and it’s a real story of the love a father has for his sons. He refused to allow Warren Jeffs to steal his sons from him. Total hero in the mess.

  430. Yes, Jason was one-time trusted security for Warren Jeffs harem of plural wives but I guess he tended to over imbibe on occasions, so he was exed or ‘handled’ and had his wife reassigned to another more faithful priesthood man. Not only is the celestial sealing thing very ‘hocus-pocus’ but the FLDS prophet releasing/reassigning wedlocks approachs a monstrous interference in personal lives and privacy. ‘Keep Sweet’ and ‘Jeffs Knows Best’ are the mantras of a sect of fanatics devoid of morale authority over their own lives. Is the Warren’s wives shell game still being played with his over 75+plural wives being constantly shuttled from ‘safe house’ to ‘safe house’ and what’s the point are the Press & Public supposed to be fooled that he doesn’t really have dozens and dozens of wives or maybe moving them frequently keeps the Priesthood men away from them?

  431. Jason wasn’t ever security for Warren. From reading his book, Jason and others in the Williams clan were always on the fringes.

    I don’t know if Warren’s wives are being shuttled or not. I think most are probably in Texas.

  432. This is a link to an interesting theory that seems to be getting attention on various blogs, was polygamist Mitchell involved in the Jon Benet Ramsey killing?

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6828742

    IMO not, as Mitchell wrote in his dictations that he wanted girls between 10 & 14 of LDS background. But his DNA should be checked, and if hey if they check Mitchell’s, they need to check ole Warren Jeffs, perhaps he did it!

    IMO polygamists were not involved in Ramsey murder, but stranger things have happened in polygamy.

  433. So every house in Short Creek now has a small sign over the front door that says “Zion.” There is also one over the door to the meeting house. Some houses had “Zion” permanently etched into the brickwork above their door.

  434. Is this a new order issued to ‘convince’ the people that they are…in the land of…? I cant see this as a spontaneous move among the people. Especially since free thinking and spontaneity has been bred out, in most cases.

  435. Great site!

    Cant wait to see Warrens trial

    The video was great too thank you very much. I had no idea how many lives this guy ruined and messed up – I wonder what the toll is.

  436. So every house in Short Creek now has a small sign over the front door that says “Zion.” There is also one over the door to the meeting house. Some houses had “Zion” permanently etched into the brickwork above their door.

    Anonymous said this on July 3, 2011 at 5:29 PM

    dang, now I want to go down there to visit, partly to find out but I can’t afford fuel. I blame the economy.

  437. If Zion Park hears about this, they are gonna want royalties!

    BTW how does Warren undust his shoes? Does this mean he is dusty again?

    And does what he says, in or out of jail, make any difference?

    Crazy before, sane now, or vice versa?

    Or just like always, changing his tune to meet the need of the day?

  438. Let’s see if someone will send in a picture of the new ornamentation.

  439. This is a real dilemma, if YFZ is YEARNING, and Shortcreek is ZION, are they all gonna move back?

    Or is YFZ gonna be renamed BETTER Understated Zippy ZION

    BUZZ for short?

  440. RICO, How do you explain Fantasyland to an outsider? It is sort of like the “Safe and Sane” Fireworks Company, by the way Happy 4TH Everybody, but since Warren has been apprehended all the FLDS Churchmen are safer. So the new motto is ‘Sane and Safe’ if you just reverse the ‘F”N’ letters in these two 4 letter words, do you grasp my ‘F”N’ point. Now go outside this morning and write “Zion” over your doorpost, I am sure you’ll feel much better for the rest of the day, kinda like it’s Passover. Oh yeah and don’t forget to send me your $2,000Dollar monthly tithe for all of my prophetic advice.

  441. CAJim on July 3, 2011 at 4:40 PM I think you are confusing Jason Williams with Wendel Musser. Wendel was the guy in the houses of hiding who was caretaker to some of Warren’s wives. Wendel had a few drinks one day while in Pueblo and was stopped and arrested for DUI. By the time he bailed out of jail, his wife and baby son along with all of Warren’s wives had disappeared from the house of hiding. Warren refused to tell Wendel where his family was so he sued Warren.

    2 different guys; 2 different devoted fathers who sued Warren Jeffs for access to their sons. They both won!

  442. Does it seem like I am repeating myself…..hee,hee……bet’cha don’t feel very sane now?

    OK time for a dumb blonde joke, A woman standing on the opposite side of a river bank she’s a blonde on the opposite side of the riverfront so she yells across to her, “Heah, how do I get to the other side” ? Well, becoming quite concerned the blonde looks quickly up the river then even more quickly glances down the river and then she breaks into a big smile and yells back,”You are already on the other side”.

    Living in Short Creek Fantasyland must be wonderful, sometimes a little confusing, but you just have to “Keep Sweet” and stop thinking for yourself.

  443. Ooooppsie, Annonymous you are right I did mean Wendel Musser…dang, does this mean that RICO doesn’t have to send me a monthly tithe?

  444. He he too funny!

    I think they should have inscribed above some of those doors = FLDSO

    Fundamental Latter Day Sex Offender

  445. I read Jason Williams book – I highly recommend it…
    A man with an astonishing sense of human in very very difficult times

  446. Wendell Musser won his son in Court, but did he actually get his son? My recollection of the dictations was that they hid the child. Probably pretty much like they did Jason for 5 weeks, until his attorney advised him to call the PD and ask for a welfare check on his kids.

  447. they hid another child too, remember the one they were going to test, they brought a different child over – that child has never been located to my knowledge

  448. That would be Nathan Jessop and his underage “wife” Teresa Jo Steed.

    You truly have to wonder at a mother who would give her baby to Teresa for her to take. That mother had to know there was a possibility that the child would be taken into custody.

  449. The “Temple Tapes,” which Jon Krakauer talked about – were they evidence that was gathered during the raid, or from the red Cadillac or another source?
    The FLDS apologists won’t be able to whine and complain about the legality of evidence obtained from Warren’s vehicle, so that’s going to be a very interesting part of the case, I think.
    Warren Jeffs is so . . . icky porn watching creepy . . . it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if he had elevated his child deflowering into some kind of perverted altar sacrament.
    Anon E Mouse said this on July 2, 2011 at 1:35 AM

    I’m not totally sure about the temple tapes. I think they came from the Caddy, but knowing Warren, there could have been a copy in the Temple also. But the thought of the temple tapes makes you wonder if there are tapes of him deflowering other underage girls. There’s the 2 Canadian girls, Loretta Jane, Brenda Lei, etc.

  450. Ooooppsie, Annonymous you are right I did mean Wendel Musser…dang, does this mean that RICO doesn’t have to send me a monthly tithe?

    CAJim said this on July 4, 2011 at 7:52 AM

    No, CAJim, but he does owe you a stick of gum.

  451. Wendell Musser won his son in Court, but did he actually get his son? My recollection of the dictations was that they hid the child. Probably pretty much like they did Jason for 5 weeks, until his attorney advised him to call the PD and ask for a welfare check on his kids.

    Proud Texan said this on July 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM

    PT, sadly Wendel Musser did not “win” his son in court (like Jason Williams did after an expensive and lengthy court battle). Judge Shumate decided that Warren Jeffs would forfeit his $650 per month in the Purgatory Jail commissary unless he shared with Wendell where his and Vivian’s child was secreted.

    Obviously, Warren’s selfishness and greed took precedence over a loving father (Wendell) trying to find his lost wife and child, who had disappeared.

    Within a week after Judge Shumate’s ruling, Vivian “appeared” and Wendell was able to see his son, Levi.

    Warren was not stripped of his prison commissary credits.

    But, I wonder if Wendell has been able to see Levi since that one time; the visit that saved Warren Jeffs’ prison commissary bank account.

  452. He’s spending about 4x that amount in the Eldorado commissary on phone cards alone. I’ll bet he’d spill all kinds of secrets to keep that commissary account since that’s his link to fleecing his sheeple.

  453. regarding Zion on the doors at short creek. Do you remember the young man and his girlfriend who drove around short creek and he took video of the town and his parents house and yard with family peeking out windows? It was posted a month or two ago. He mentioned in that video all the houses had Zion over thier doors.

    don’t have to buy gas to see it with Youtube now.

  454. OK, RICO you heard from Annon, “Stick’em Up”!

  455. I wonder if Warren got to watch the 4th of July celebration show from Washington DC last night on the jail’s TV. If so, I wonder if he enjoyed watching Little Richard sing his “pingy pangy” music at the end of the show.

    Little Richard is the guy Warren’s talking about in this clip:

  456. Let me try to embed the YouTube video of Warren’s racism again –

  457. Bummer, it still didn’t let me paste the whole URL for this video. Can someone who knows how to do that take this video of Warren and embed it here for all to enjoy?

  458. Never mind, it worked.

  459. Really glad to hear Little Richard performed last night. Last I saw him a few years back in the Nashville airport he was in a wheelchair and looked really bad.

  460. I don’t buy for one minute a teaching that the influence of the Western Civilization, which includes the moral and ethical teachings within Christianity, has in any instance been subjected to any cultural or artistry diminishment from the African Contintent. Rather from the time of Greece and Rome it can be shown that Egypt and the balance of Africa has been overwhelmingly controlled, dominated and culturally influenced by Western Civilization than the counter to have held any major influence.

    Simply not true since the dawn of Christendom. Islam for a period of time became dominant in the Near East but ultimately it too was ultimately reduced to the greater influences of the Western Civilization. The finest arts today, whether performing arts of drama, opera, ballet or secular culture of governance, military or religious order comes to the World from the Western Civilization, whether Maritime Laws, World Court, International Monetary Fund or Judeo-Christian ethics/moralities.

    Todays, pop culture, modern fashions and liberal philosophies still rest upon Western Civilization and all other cultural extractions are secondary and not primary.

  461. CAJim, I am an amateur historian, this is my particular subject of interest and I respectfully beg to differ. Europe was in the toilet financially and socially from 400 AD to about 1000 AD. Islamic countries were a huge influence on Europe between about 900AD and 1275AD, mainly through trade. Also, the boundaries between Islam and Europe were blurred through the Crusader kingdoms and multicultural kingdoms in Spain and Southern Italy. The list of technological and scientific achievements that were passed into Europe from Islam is huge. If you also add knowledge from the Far East that was delivered to Europe by muslim traders, the list is even longer. Paper, glass, silk culture, linen, cotton, calculus and geometry, gun powder, medical advances…the list goes on and on. The Islamic realms started to suffer from a number of simultaneous attacks – government monopolies on trade, excessive use of slave labor and slave fighting forces, tribal in fighting, Mongols and other disruptions of trade routes. Europe was just beginning to emerge from feudalism and expand it’s boundaries through trade at the same time. The Black Death further shook up the social structure and desperation made new innovations and changes. They took the technologies of the Near and the Far East and evolved them further, emerging as financial and cultural leaders in the Renaissance. But it by no means is a straight and steady line in favor of Christianity from the time of Christ. History is not really so tidy.

  462. Touche` Betty, how has the Western Civilization been doing since 1492 when the New World was discovered? Did any Islamic countires participate or colonize one settlement? Hmmmm, seems like the contributions of Islam may have imploded after the last Caliphate. My point is still that over the past 2,000 years there is only one civilization that has made the traceable primary contribution to the World. Secondary and lesser contributions are all significant additions but what equals the birth of modern democracy, space exploration, computer age technology/internet, leading scientific advancements and nuclear tecnologies. In the past 500 years what competing world culture would even compare to todays Western Civilization’s dominance? Where’s Egypt without their American alliance, why is Turkey clamoring to join into the United Europe, Does Iran possess a military/industrial complex of importance, why has Israel aligned itself into the European community and where does the Arab World aquire it’s weaponry?????

  463. You know, Eldorado has it’s own 4th of July parade. Maybe he got to watch that.

  464. @Anon 07/23/2011 8:50pm. Looks like Gabriel Richard Green is my second cousin twice removed. Thanks for the obit!

  465. True, but you said from the Greek/Roman time on. I guess my point is, CalJim, that every empire has it’s time and then fades away. IMHO, Western Civilization is beginning to fade away and the new world leaders will be China and India. All those accomplishments you list are decades old in a time when cultural changes move at the speed of a tweet. But only time will tell.

  466. Anon 10:54, if you’re gonna post it, go all out:

  467. Watergirl, Little Richard looked really great last night. He probably had on a wig and maybe he has had a face-lift (or 2) but he looked like the Little Richard of yore. He sure could still bang on those ivories, too.

    Yep, it was one fun time hearing him play that pingy pangy music. I always loved Little Richard. Too bad Warren has no sense of taste for his musical talents. But, just consider the source!

  468. Towards the end he makes a pun and chuckles to himself.

    “Why am I going over this? It’s kind of a “DARK” story, isn’t it? Heh Heh.”

  469. Dutson Jr has been moved from the processing unit in Huntsville to Colorado City, Texas. He’s in the Wallace unit. Emack is also in Colorado City, but he resides in the Ware unit.

  470. Hey Warren, this one’s for you!

  471. There is a pretty strong correlation between the countries mining AND minting silver and who was top dog. Greece and Rome had huge silver output which allowed them to control the monetary system. After the fall of Rome the major source of silver for all of China, India, and Europe was Central Asia, which just happens to coincide with the dominance of Islam. Europe got back on its feet when silver mines opened in Germany and the Czech Republic. Mexico and Bolivia are exceptions because their huge output went to create an inflationary period in Europe that lasted 2 centuries, so then you round it off with US westward expansion (silver and gold mines) and now….. one major source of silver is China. Last remaining reserves will be Africa.

  472. lots of back and forth between Bill and April Day on the one hand and all the rest on Salt Lake Tribune…..does that mean nobody goes to Bill’s site so he has to leave it and come out to fight?

  473. hellohellogoodbye, link please? I need a good laugh right now.

  474. ProudTexan I love the irony of it all. Keith and Mike now living in Colorado City behind bars. Texas did what Arizona and Utah wouldn’t.

  475. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52083760-78/jessop-court-date-former.html.csp

    Here’s the link Anon.

  476. We haven’t heard from her in a while, so here, direct from who knows where, Krazy Kathleen!!!

  477. China and India will need more than 100+ years to rise and even hope to some day become a Super Power. Space exploration will take them generations to develop. If they started today to develop a World class Navy it would take more than three generations to equal the US Navy, alone. Japan’s failed attempt to raise a World class Navy from WWI thru WWII is an example of how long it takes to develop. Aircraft carriers take seven years to build today and it takes an entire defense task force to protect it, we have seven aircraft carriers and that presumes that the World order would allow them to build-up such a force and a will to spend that much natiional treasure. The two remaining legs of an effective nuclear Triad system of missiles and nuclear submarines would, also, need to be developed. There simply is no way today that either India nor China shows the will or goals to achieve such a goal. A World class Air Force would likewise need the technology to build all-weather aircraft of all types, namely fighter, bomber, cargo and transport. Trust me we are decades upon decades away from such developments and no real threat of that nature exists.

    Wester Civilization seems to be accelerating not declining in many of these areas. We are on the threshold of unmanned aircraft fighters. China today is inept to cross one ocean strait to capture Taiwan. India has in the past appeared to be cowed by Pakistan and today the US holds a sizable land force within this neighborhood. Space offers the ultimate ‘high ground’ in military terms and neither China or India are viable contenders in this arena. We are more than a century away from any demise in the Western Civilization and today we still hold a ‘pat hand’, nuclear arsenal unequalled by anyone, alliances that represent a worldwide network and proven leadership in both peacetime and wartime environments.

  478. The Polygamist’s Daughter has another post on her blog.
    http://thepolygamistsdaughter.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/finding-compassion/

  479. They don’t have to develop new technologies. They just have to be able to buy ours.

  480. Really, just have to want to buy it? See if the Pentagon is willing to sell any clasiffied technology systems to either China or India. China would love to buy our current missile guidance system but it isn’t for sale. we have older version available at the right price but we like to preserve a two year technological edge. The weightless science productions of crystals, etc. are beyond the asking price, simply not available at any price.

  481. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52083760-78/jessop-court-date-former.html.csp

    Here’s the link Anon.

    Proud Texan said this on July 5, 2011 at 6:41 PM

    Many thanks PT; I did get some much-needed chuckles out of some of those blog postings. There were some strange ones and some rather funny ones.

    Yet, there are dozens of pages on that blog, so it may takc me a bit of time to regurgitate all of it.

  482. Publicity piece for the Darger’s new book –

    http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Love-Times-Three/?isbn=9780062074041

  483. Check it out again today, he’s back and going strong.

  484. Why doesn’t someone go and arrest the Dargers? They are telling the whole world that they are breaking the law.

  485. CalJim,

    I hope I’m wrong, for what it’s worth.

    If we get to the point where the US dollar is no longer the global economic engine (and a default of debt would do that), then all sorts of things can happen, and rather quickly at that. The contractors, scientists, engineers will go where the money is, taking their knowledge with them. Not all of them are ethical. With their help, it would still take awhile to build up infrastructure and develop what we have, but not 100 years.

    One major problem we have is that our defense is more, not less, dependent on oil for fuel than it used to be, and more so than any other current army, but no one seems to see that as a security risk. (Well, T Boone Pickens does, but that isn’t having a big impact with the Pentagon.)

    Just based on history, hall marks of an empire on the way down are : ongoing, far away, expensive wars, empire is larger and/or more complex than it can manage, burdensome debt, monopolies and other ways of stifling innovation, not integrating subcultures and immigrants, government is remote and unresponsive to the needs of the populous, failure to maintain infrastructure, wide gap in wealth between the classes, violent intrigue and coups. We’ve got all of those except the last one.

  486. The Dargers –

    “From a family that inspired Big Love’s story of Bill Henrickson and his three wives”

    —————————

    What a pile of crap – I dont recall hearing much of this run-of the -mill plygger Darger family.

    I would like to see the source that Big Love is based on these peeps.

    If you watched the show, it followed closely the drama surrounding “Juniper Creek” err short creek and was a blend of polygamist examples.

    NOT based on the Dargers.

    So, I think that claim is simply an exploitation attempt to gain fame from the series.

    Blame that one on Brooke right off the bat. She’s the “expurt” and has her name attached to it.

  487. Betty, the 100 years is very likely as the Pentagon has looked at a build up of this kind for decades and they have very informed models. We, also, as a Nation have long ago decided to buy our oil on the world market and we have a strategic Federal reserve here within our own borders to redress a possible wartime scenario. Occassionally you read about the President releasing some of our national reserve and then nit gets replenished. The military planners are well aware of the vital nature of crude oil and lessons were learned from the mistakes Japan and Germany made during WWII. If any standing rival power to the US began to build up their military forces we would know all about it and you can’t just go out and buy a Navy, control the shipping chokepoints, like the straits of Gibraltar or Panama Canal and possess key isles or supply bases worldwide with only cash. Our buildup of the Diego Garcia Archpleigo dates back to the Carter Administration and today could support an entire US Naval Fleet and Bomber Wing, during the hostage crisis it was an abandoned atoll. like I said it takes decades upon decades, today we hold the ‘pat hand’ with no strategic rivals.

  488. RICO, funny that Brooke Adms of all people becomes the associate of a pro-polygamist book and after her publishing so many preFLDS claims that apostates that wrote books were just in it for the money?

    I know the down side of polygamy was usually glossed over by Brooke on her Sltrib blog and she held sway that she was merely interested in ‘fair and balanced’ reporting but this romanticization of bigamy kept reappearing in her chosen topics and viewpoints, now that there is a series of guilty/plea verdicts Adams is off writing a pro-polygamy book?

    So much for the professional journalism and ;fair and balaced’ coverage.

  489. Well, I’m enjoying this conversation, CalJim but it’s really off topic.

    You realize the strategic oil reserve is only equivalent to a few day’s usage for the nation in general? If OPEC cut us off during a war, we’d have extreme disruption within a week and would grind to a halt inside a month, tops.

  490. Cajim

    True, Brooke just put an exclamation point on the viewpoint that she is pro-polygamy!

    And as far as her “objective, fair and balanced professional journalism about polygamy”, well this just became the death knell on that perspective.

    Lindsay Whitehurst, who picked up the ball on it after she left, still has to find her sea legs. We’ll see where she lands – but its tough going, with all these convictions coming one after another.

    Being pro polygamy nowadays is like being pro- OJ Simpson, pro Osama bin Laden or pro Casey Anthony.

  491. In Iraq we went from Basra to Baghdad in 31 days, don’t think the Saudis didn’t notice how quick we can move if the mood suits us. Mexico, Venezuela and several other oil cartel members would have a choice to make on who they would choose to strategically support in a wartime scenario. We, also, have untapped offshore oil resources that we know exist but have chosen to buy off the world market, I wouldn’t doubt America’s ability to mobilize, if needed. Oh and the bankers and financiers of the world are going to align themselves with China or India, not likely today or tomorrow?

  492. Stamp: Being pro polygamy nowadays is like being pro- OJ Simpson, pro Osama bin Laden or pro Casey Anthony.

    ——————————————————–

    I think the media and entertainment industry gives polygamy a much better spin than they do to the list above. Oprah wanted to talk about prairie dresses and hair braiding.

    “Big Love” and Kody Brown make it look all lovey-dovey with no more issues than a monogamous family.

    It would be different if there were just as many women with multiple husbands – the fact that there aren’t tells me (a woman) that despite the claims about “religion” what it really boils down to is nothing more than men wanting to legitimize their greed for multiple sex partners.

  493. I think that the pro – polygamy groups are now trying to glamorize the lifestyle, as you see with the “Sister Wives” series.
    Despite the fact that the Browns collected food stamps even while on the TLC payroll, and despite the multiple falsified bankruptcy filings made by the Browns to sustain their lifestyle, they continue to try to portray polygamy as wholesome and economically feasible, even with 16 children and one more on the way. TLC is assisting the Browns by funding 4 homes, one for each wife, in Las Vegas, as well as providing funding for vacations, honeymoons, dinners, etc. Some people are actually quite taken in by it all.

  494. BinB, Fantasyland is it own set of unworldly circumstances. Thw wreckage that follows inevitably in it’s wake has been scattered across the wastelands of the Rocky Mountain regions, quite literally for generations now. There is no new resolution or viewpoint to hold it up in the light of day and see it as other than what Abraham Lincoln called it, namely, “one of the twin relics of barbarism”, if only he had enacted more or wasn’t distracted by our own Civil War to effectively root out it’s spread in the frontier West. The lack of resolve, tolerance to compromise and tendency to ignore will never eradicate it as a gruesome institution that as the Canadian counselor Craig Jones has described,”a system that consumes it’s own young”. I still smile at the stalwart faithful LDS Mormons who supported the Woodruff Manifesto and soothed themselves in a common belief that the ‘Gentiles’ would, within a generation of time, come to believe the rightness of polygamy and allow it. Well we are over one-hundred years hence and today the resolve to see an end to the practice of polygyny is still a majority opinion held by most religious and civic communities.

  495. http://youtu.be/7OEaRn3uHsc Polygamy Family Interview 4

    Vici, Valerie, Christine and another talk about “living in fear” and want to bring the practice of polygamy ” out of the shadows”

    LOL They aren’t like those “others” in the Warren Jeffs group.

  496. http://youtu.be/DbZvunujf5Q Polygamy Family Interview 2

    Vicki, Valerie and Allie (?) best friends who share the same man

    2 of which are really sisters

    There are so many twists and ties to the families that connect with “Sister Wives” aka Kody Brown clan (BS) that you wouldn’t believe it all. It’s all been on the net for a long time.

    Dig and dig a little deeper

  497. I still say that everyone has the right to tell their story.

    And I am here to say that there is a HUGE pile of stinky poo that goes with just about everyone of them.

    “nobody understands us” BS

    “it’s a part of our faith” the same faith that they ignore when it comes time to telling the truth

    “We want our kids to grow up with out fear” simplest way is to obey the law

    What amazes me is that they are still trying to hide all the connections. They know I am not the only one who knows. Why do people continue to try and scam those on the outside?

    oy oy oy

    Gee, I wonder how many gave their testimonies for the Canadian trials?
    lol

    I wonder if any reporters testified at the Canadian trials? lol

  498. Who is Linda Kelsh? and how is she related to these stories?

    http://www.childbrides.org/action_spec_town_hall_meeting.html

    http://thestory.org/archive/the_story_86_Polygamy_An_Insiders_View.mp3/view

    http://www.allbookstores.com/Vicki-Kelsh/author

  499. Flora told me the Browns were hand picked by the Principle Voices group to represent their interests in decriminalizing polygamy.

  500. FLDS moderator- I see that my last post is in moderation. I am thinking it is because I posted 3 different links inside one post. Sorry.

    I have tried so very hard to be compasionate and understanding about all this stuff. I have tried to understand from all sides.

    I don’t understand why time and time again people have to lie, cheat and put their kids out there in harms way to fight their causes. I don’t understand any religious group that breaks many of their commandments to honor one that would make sleeping with your sisters husband ok.

    I don’t understand why the govt. isn’t doing more to end this BS. I don’t understand the involvement of the govt.

    Do you guys know? Am I the only one out here that is clueless? Will someone tell me straight out what is going on?

    It’s not likely that I will ever stop asking. Just tell me. Please.

  501. Flora told me the Browns were hand picked by the Principle Voices group to represent their interests in decriminalizing polygamy.

    Friend of Flora said this on July 6, 2011 at 3:32 PM

    I really like Flora. And I have a lot of respect for her. She said things straight out.

    Ask Flora how many of those kids are really Kody’s.

  502. Game plan?

    http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/cmsdocuments/Safety_Net(new).pdf

  503. Thanks for all your info Walton. Your links were released, they are appreciated. Wish we could give answers to all your questions, such as why different levels of govt react differently. It is obvious Texas wont put up with abuses against children, and UT and AZ are in the back seat of the bus taking lessons. The Feds? They may arrive with the cavalry at any time, or maybe not. They seem preoccupied with other issues.

    —Admin

  504. “The Lord showed me in this vision, the first Presidency are giving their lives for this cause, That no matter what happens, Bother Merril would cling to me, tie to me, talking of Priesthood, tying to the Lord.”
    From Warren Jeff’s dictations, October 15, 2005.

    Now in 2011 Merril has been handled, kicked out of his priesthood calling in the first presidency. Guess warren got it wrong in 2005. A false prophet!!

  505. Please continue on General Discussion #58

    —- Thanks, Admin

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