General Discussion #56

Continued from General Discussion #55

~ by FLDS TEXAS on May 24, 2011.

441 Responses to “General Discussion #56”

  1. Good Morning !

  2. Question — Without doing a lot of time consuming research, can anyone list the various “places of refuge” and approximate acreages? Don’t have the bandwidth right now to do the research so if anyone knows just off the top.

    * YFZ, TX = ~1,700 acres
    * Pringle, SD = ~140 acres
    * Westcliffe, CO = ???
    * Mancos, CO = ???
    * Others???

  3. This information on Westcliffe, CO may be out of date as they may have purchased additional property since Jan. 2009.
    “No one has evidence that polygamy or forced marriages are going on at the big house, which sits on 35 acres in Bull Domingo Ranch, a development of isolated home sites. In fact, the house was established as a refuge for FLDS widows and their caretakers.”

  4. Shortcreek, 40,000 acres?

  5. I think there are 17 count em 17 places of “refuge”


    I dont know if this counts the “Houses of Hiding – errr – slave punishment”…

  6. Rulon Jeffs claimed the world was going to end in the year 2000

    This crackpot not only looks like him, he sounds like him.

    Send money now, before its too late!


    “Preacher Who Got Date of Apocalypse Wrong Tries Again, Says He Was Off by Five Months”

    Read more:

  7. There are several houses – some large, some regular houses – in the Westcliffe, Colorado area in addition to the property at Bull Domingo Ranch. They have acreage at Bull Domingo Ranch and a large, palatial house down the road. They also have houses near Penrose, Colorado which is on the way to Pueblo. One of the houses of hiding was in Wetmore, Colorado. It was abandoned, but there are more FLDS living in that area, I believe.

  8. Maybe this has been answered already, but why are they branching out like that?

    I thought they were supposed to meet in Shortcreek for the lifting up in 2000

    Now that didnt happen, so they are scattering about again?

  9. Somehow, Chaps, I don’t think of the Crick as a place OF refuge; seems more like a place the elite want to take refuge FROM. 😉

    So, is there a source for your count of 17 places of refuge?

    Oh I agree, “houses of hiding” hardly count; there could be hundreds of those scattered everywhere. 😛 pffft!!

    I’m most interested in where larger numbers of people can go live for a long period of time; you know, until the rapture?

  10. My source for 17 places of refuge is just going by simple count – the newer one (YFZ) is codenamed R17, so one would think there are 16 other places.

    There are a few named above, I’m thinking also the farm out to Pioche / pony springs in NV, and of course the Harker Farm complex outside Enterprise, both of these might add to the count or at least I would think so.

    Maybe some larger or more significant “Hidey houses” are named and others not.

    I suspect Bountiful Canada is one too?

    These places really add up.

  11. Oh, and I agree that the crick doesnt seem too attractive to leaders – even though “we r base”.

    Rulon surrounded his compound with high walls and electric gates like Osama bin laden did – even has the interior gardens as well.

    Only thing missing was barbed wire – but they have enough of that at YFZ.

    Then there is the new high walled compound in the Creek too.

    Fence salesmen in Shortcreek must be rolling in the dough!

  12. Sorry, Chaps but Shirt Creek/Hildale/Colorado City was scratched off of the list as a ‘gathering place’, that’s why the ‘Lands of Refuge’ where needed. Pony Springs outside of Pioche, NV is another area, I am not sure if it is designated for refuge but the property is leased. Bonners Ferry, Idaho has been expanding as a US annex to the Bountiful, Canada group. Rocksprings, Texas and Broken Bow, Oklahoma have some FLDS members in these regions, no confirmation on if they’re refuges but they are newer locales.

  13. Maybe when Warren’s Bag – O – Bling is popped open at his trial, we’ll find the list?

  14. I think their is many, many,many things that can come spilling out at trial and the ‘naysyers’ will be scrambling to explain it all away. Good news earlier this month is in BC, Canada two politicians running for elective office ended and the no-polygamy and no-drug free canidate, named Christy Clark was elected over her opponent David Eby. Clark’s position was that polygamy exploits both women and children.

  15. I think R-17 is so named because it’s a 17 hour drive from short creek.

  16. Thats refreshing to hear!

  17. I was responding to CaJim – to TC

    I think the Creek is called R1?

    But that might make sense too, as in mile marker one. ha ha!

  18. OK

    I found some info on it here

    “The lands of refuge were given secret code names so their locations would not be revealed to gentiles (unbelievers), and apostates (former members).

    They were even kept secret from faithful followers in Short Creek who had not yet been trained and invited to gather to these lands of refuge. These code names included the letter “R” standing for “Refuge.”

    The lands of refuge included:

    R1 – located in the Southwest corner of Colorado. It is 4-5 miles north of the rural community of Mancos, near Cortez and Mesa Verde National Park.”


    The numbers seem random but may add up.

  19. What a freakin creeper that Warren is…

    from the link:

    “Warren taught that because of their unfaithfulness, the Lord had withdrawn him from the people.

    “If I had stayed, many of them would have been judged and found unworthy, so instead the Lord withdrew me to give them a little more time to repent.”

    Warren had suspended all public church meetings and all ordinances, such as baptisms.

    He believed that the terrible judgments of God against the wicked would begin in Short Creek.

    “Short Creek will be without any faithful and only the wicked will be there eventually, and the judgments of God will begin there.

    They have already begun with the withdrawal of ordinances and meetings from the people.” (Priesthood Record, May 11, 2004)”

  20. There’s also an R23, so there goes the 17 lands of refuge.

    I think I made a list somewhere when going through the dictations. I’ll look for it one day.

  21. R1 is Mancos, Colorado
    R17 YFZ
    R23 Pringle, South Dakota

    Maybe Warren just counted using odd numbers?

    CAJim, I thought Bonners Ferry was were Winston’s group had branched out. Are you saying that the FLDS are also in Bonner’s Ferry?

  22. OK

    Is Huntsville Prison R-77…???

  23. To me, numbering these places seems arbitrary and capricious. I’ve seen a reference to R12. Don’t have a clue where that is.

  24. Would love to see that list whenever you come up with it, PT.

  25. I looked and can’t find it. Maybe I’ll get motivated and do it again, but with summer here and the pool open, it isn’t looking promising.

    As for the numbering I”m not sure. I remember a reference that YFZ is 17 hours from the Crick, but it’s really not. It’s more like 20. I know Mancos isn’t 1 hour from the Crick and I doubt Pringle is 23 hours. Who knows, maybe Warren was smokin some crazy weed when he went into numbering mode or maybe Naomi told him he said it while in a session.

  26. To me, numbering these places seems arbitrary and capricious. I’ve seen a reference to R12. Don’t have a clue where that is.

    ad hoc said this on May 24, 2011 at 9:09 PM

    Yes, ad hoc, I seem to remember an R12 also. Maybe Warren was superstitious about having an R13 if he was counting with odd numbers and gave in to having one even-number – R 12.

    But I do remember reading in one of Warren’s secretive/sacred “lands of refuge trainings” dictations that the numbers meant nothing. However, remembering how Warren (by his own words, acts and deeds) was so anal, paranoid and secretive to reveal anything to his faithful followers, I still think that there was a method to Warren’s madness and that the naming of the “lands of refuge” followed some pattern of orderliness.

    JMHO, WTF knows what Warren the madman is/was thinking?

  27. A word of warning to Warren Jeffs, this is your future, being sentenced for your crimes as your fellow profit polygamist Mitchell.

    Yes Warren as goes Mitchell so go you, the ker chang of the gates of the cellosteel kingdom!

  28. Anonymous, what I am saying about Bonners Ferry is that in 2003 a newer community of 100-300 live/past FLDS members, lead by Bishop Shem Erick Johnson (Owner/President of S & L Underground Contractors) with direct ties into the Bountiful/Creston community. Loyalties or affiliations are a funny thing to follow or truly discern. Warren can accept/reject any FLDS faction he chooses and in the past one ousted person/family/group can be ‘Handled’ or forgiven at a moments notice. Given Warren Blackmores present problems and pending polygamy reference case findings Shem could be back in the FLDS fold at the blink of an eye, he may be back in the good graces of Warren and/or not.

  29. Emack’s attorneys filed a “post submission brief” in his sexual assault appeal.

  30. Without much attention or fanfare two female Texas Legislators, namely Van Putte and Thonpson, have sucessfully passed both Texas Senate Bill 24 & House Bill 7 which incorporates the recommendatins of the Human Trafficking Prevention Task Force to make three enhancements to existing laws:

    1). Cases of proven prostitution/sex will be a 1st Degree Felony

    2). The extension of the ‘Statute of Limitations’ to lengthen enforcibility

    3). Expanded wording to clearly specify the definitions of both sex and labor trafficking

    These two bills adoption into law last month doesn’t bode well for suspected minor child traffickers that bring/brought victims into Texas. Should send a shiver right up ole Warren S. Jeffs spine.

  31. Ad Hoc & Anonymous, I neglected to mention that Shem Johnson’s real estate holdings in Bonners Ferry is 9 parcels totalling 134 acres.

  32. Thanks CAJim.

    I’m learning there were several privately situated large homes on properties with acreage rented during 2007 for “caretakers” around the Colorado Springs / Black Forest area too. Wonder if they are still FLDS-occupied. There was hope some could eventually be purchased.

  33. Mitchell made the following statement to one of his relatives before going in for sentencing: “This is all part of his service to the Lord and for bigger things and the world isn’t ready for what he has to say. I asked him about the life sentence, what he thought about that. He’s like, ‘the world won’t be around for me to serve that life sentence because we’re not going to last that long on this earth.”

    Rad the rest of the article:,0,601811.story

    Ole Mitchell sounds a lot like Warren Jeffs here.

  34. Ole Mitchell also sounds a bit like Harold Camping….

  35. He also sounds like Rulon Jeffs, RIP…. or not….

  36. Brian Mitchell got Life in Prison.

    One more down….

  37. These are the cities the FLDS reside in according to the proclamation pages.

    Large Populations:
    Hildale, UT
    Colorado City, AZ
    Lister, BC (Bountiful)
    Eldorado, TX (R17)
    Mancos, CO (R1)
    Custer, SD (R23)
    Beryl, UT (Harker Farm)
    Pioche, NV (another Farm)
    San Angelo, TX
    Las Vegas, NV
    Henderson, NV
    Mesquite, NV
    Creston, BC

    Small Populations (3 families or less.):
    Hurricane, UT
    Cheyenne, WY
    Lubbock, TX
    Christoval, TX
    Edgerton, MN
    Glendale, UT
    Kerrville, TX
    Canyon, BC
    Yahk, BC
    Pangwitch, UT
    Flagstaff, AZ

    Suprisingly, no one was from Bonners Ferry, or anywhere in Idaho. Also, there was no one from Mexico. I’d guess at least 85-90% live in Short Creek.

  38. Thanks for the list! Thats quite a passel.

    Oh, you can add to that list, various prisons out and about Texas.

    Brother Mitchell will be in Utah for a short spell, till they find him a permanent Federal Prison home.

  39. Who lives in Lubbock?

  40. Brian Mitchell in jail for life, Warren Jeffs up next… one down, one to go…

  41. Some of those Texas communities could be addresses given that some families went to after the raid. They were scattered around where their children had been taken for foster care weren’t they?

    Pilot took some pictures last July of some other Texas property they bought called Griffin Farm. Isn’t it very close to the YFZ compound? Any housing being built there?

  42. The Christoval one is a house bought by Richard S. Jessop, the one who bragged on Oprah that he had 3 wives. He owns Texan Service and Supply, but it has been rumored that he was kicked out with his daddy Merril.

  43. Brian Mitchell in jail for life, Warren Jeffs up next… one down, one to go…

    Nocturnal Anon said this on May 25, 2011 at 7:48 PM

    Well this calls for a song for the newly sentenced felonious profit:

    Hopefully the federal prisons will be over crowded, and Mitchell gets farmed out to one of those southern states were they have chain gangs.

    Just think Warren , we will we have songs in your honor too!

  44. Warren

    listen up

    acting bat shit crazy didnt help Brian Mitchell

    it wont help you either

    “I am working on the chaiiinn gaaannngg”

  45. Anon..on the last thread posted about Orson William Black..I have heard from pretty reliable sources that he and his wife Amy Barlow Black were killed in a gun battle.

  46. Dang moving to Mexico is always so risky.

    Was this incident called the Meadow Mountain Massacre?

  47. when were they killed anon? last i knew amy was in contact with her family.

  48. National Geographic’s June edition will feature in it’s “Birth of Religion” a susection on ‘The secret lives of Child Brides’. There’s a picture of a 14 year old mother washing her six month old baby from a wash bowl while a two year old first child is playing next to her, probably taken from Yemen. An apparent swipe at their last expose` on the February, 2010 edition of “Polygamy in America – One man, five wives, 46 children” We’ll have to wait and see how the Editor and staff at National Geographic redress the impending charges of the Prophet Warren S. Jeffs for wedlocks with a 12 and 14 year old “Child Brides”. The contrast they’re presnting from the bedouin tribes of Yemen to the bedded girl brides in Texas is a rather stark and shocking contrast. These young herdsmen’s girl brides, who they rape first and then marry because they have been despoiled, is a closely held secret wedlock in some India villages. I think the Editor is plainly displaying the exploitation and perversion of most cultures norms and mores to drive home the inhuman aspects of this focused topic.

    Warren’s defense team has to cringe at this stark contrast that living and giving birth in a FLDS Church community is tantamount to life in a third world country with no chance of escape or safe childhood. The picture of the Child Bride in this June issue will sear your memory.

  49. Of course, some naysayers like Bill MadeWacky would refrain, “I wll get concerned when the child bride comes forward to complain for hersel”. Which not only overlooks a societies reponsibility to protect it’s widows, ill, poor and young but refers him to read the best seller,” I am Nujood,Age 10 and Divorced”. Bill will probably complain that there isn;t a cartoon edition, so it can hold his attention.

  50. Most pedophiles express the belief that their victims wanted sexual intimacy as much as they themselves did. Explains a lot, doesn’t it?

  51. My 84 yo Southern Baptist Mother is convinced that all these tornados in the south is “God trying to get our attention.” I asked her if she thought wicked people live in Joplin, MO. She said no, just that there are too many natural disasters happening here and around the world to be anything more than God trying to get our attention.

    I cringed at the thought that Warren, Mitchell and their followers might think their predictions were coming true.

  52. Problem is there has always been something crazy going on, not just lately.

    However now that civilization has created urban sprawl, natural events will impact more people.

    I tend to think the WW2 – 1940 to 1945 – was a scary time.

  53. I have a suspicion that the National Geographic has a trilogy in mind for this ‘Polygamy’ and ‘Child Bride’ are just the first two installments. The FLDS Church leadership that OKed the original edition on polygamy will probably get ‘handled’ by Warren Jeffs, of course this assumes that the Seer, Revelator and Prophet approved the coverage himself and now has lead his flock into a worlwide exposure of abuse and lawless practices found normally in the backwater hinterlands in the Sahara desert or the squalid and stenched neighborhoods of Bonbay, not in the beloved U.S.A. Be sure to keep a vomit bucket nearby, you’ll lose your lunch looking at the ‘Child Bride’ photos.

  54. Its good that people are being made aware.

  55. Can anybody confirm on Orson and Amy Black, or whether it supposedly occurred in Chihuahua?

  56. Yes Betty the pedophiles always overlook the underage and legally protected aspects of childhood. In fact the FLDS Chuch prophet and Priesthood does overlook the 1st degree rape aspects of the laws written to defend the kids from a wanton predator. If a child can’t sign a legally binding contract how is it the FLDS prophet is OK with them being a party to a Celestial sealing? If society says you have to be of a certain age to drive, drink or gamble, why does wedlock strike them as a decision only to be made by a group of men and announced to a ‘Child Bride’? I am sure Warren’s attorney will avoid this topic completely as he proclaims ‘Persecution’ when really the truer topic is ‘Perversion’.

  57. Well, they also overlook the fact that children do not yet have hormones that create sexual desire. It’s projecting onto the object of your desire a reciprocal desire that does not exist. If a 12 year old rape victim does not scale the wall of the compound, walk miles and miles into town and file a complaint, it obviously means she really loves your loving and always wanted to have babies by an old man before she can drive a car! In a way, I’d rather they just consider the child bride property than to construct a fantasy that she is complicit with her own abuse. It’s sickening.

  58. Betty they do teach and believe that the children and women are their property. Involuntary servitude is prrequisite to being a Warrenite in good standing. “Keep Sweet” consists of harbor no doubts, question no authority and serve the Priesthood and Prophet or get ‘handled’. Psychological and physical coercion is very present in this fanatical sect. Imagine you parents being present at your Celestial sealing, albeit unlawful, indoctrinated and devoid of choice. There is no say from the ‘Child Bride’ that is legal, no voice or act that can dissuade the prophet’s decision. Unwed girls are dealt with like they are ‘snakes’ in the Garden of Eden, there is no dating and no accepted form of monogamy, only polygyny. Some choice, huh?

    Outwardly, now the world can see the FLDS ‘gulag’ aspect of the children being raised in such a world of indoctrination but inwardly the lack of voice, choice and expression stays hidden from everypne’s view. Their actions speak far louder than their lies, though.

  59. They own them like cattle and trading them like livestock is quite troubling. These forays from Canada to Short Creek always records the Canadian bishop or priesthoodlum returns with his own ‘Child Bride’, kinda like he went to the market and bartered for his next bride. Imagine Prophet Jeffs has over 75+plural wives and he goes to great extents to hide that fact from the public’s view.

  60. Wonder if Warren will use the excuse that Brian Mitchell’s attorneys used, (and failed)

    That all that molesting didnt leave any lasting psychological problems….

  61. Of course, some naysayers like Bill MadeWacky would refrain, “I wll get concerned when the child bride comes forward to complain for hersel”.
    Complain and you are sent to a house of hiding, with no clue what state you are in, and in this house of hiding, you have no clue if you will ever see your former friends or family again. Happened to 13 year old Colleen, who was shipped in from Canada.

  62. Chaps, Warren defense is from Matthew 26:62,”And the high priest arose and said to Him,”Do you answer [them] nothing”? If Warren doesn’t maintain his silence then he will be a Judas to all of the priesthoodlums, YFZ Raunchy residents and other FLDS fanatics that have staunchly held their silence in front of a mountain of evidence and bonsfide facts. His attorney will likely be hamstrung to put up a vigorous defense by his own client and appeals will be when the true trial will begin. Warren’s recent ‘handling’ of over 30+FLDS members is another indication that the pressures are unbearable and the conviction is nearly a foregone conclusion. Only Asst. AG Eric Nichols and his prosecutorial staffer know if there are a few surprises in evidence or witnesses. Warren’s chances, short of a miracle, seems to be about as good as Brian David Mitchell.

  63. Of course, some naysayers like Bill MadeWacky would refrain, “I wll get concerned when the child bride comes forward to complain for herself”.

    So if a 12-14 year old girl is being molested by an uncle or cousin it is OK if the girl does not complain about it?? That ia absolutely sick and perverted reasoning. The age of consent lasws are there for a reason.

    Would Medvecky be OK with it if it were his 12 year old daughter or grandaughter?? I sure as heck would not accept that if it were my daughters or grandchildren.

  64. CAJim said this on May 26, 2011 at 1:58 PM
    …Only Asst. AG Eric Nichols and his prosecutorial staffer know if there are a few surprises in evidence or witnesses…..

    CAJim, doesn’t the prosecution have to tell Warren’s attorney’s ahead of time what evidence they plan to disclose at trial?
    If so wonder if they have already had that conversation.

  65. Well I understand from somebody in the courtroom when the file was handed over, that the ‘Bad Acts’ aspect of Warren Jeffs’ casebe a guilty verdict and then proceed to the penalty phase, that said file was about 1/2 inch thickness. Hhhmmm, seemed rather lengthy to me, I just wonder what all is contained therein. The prospective witnesses list has not been exchanged as of the last press reporting but there may be a witness list. Yes, the evidence would be saherd with both sides but sometimes the evidence or evidences don’t coalesce until a counselor, like Eric Nichols connects the dots at trial for the defenses counselor. Not really the defense counselor’s fault, really, you understand that this will make Eric’s eight prospective conviction and I’m sure he’s just dying to present this case. Warren’s defense counselor running a little behind this crime wave power curve is to be expected, kind of like on the job training.

  66. @Watergirl:
    Religion has always exploited natural disasters. I do not buy into that. Reminds me of Warren telling mothers who had babies born with problems that they did not pray hard enough or something like that.
    We humans created the poisons on Earth with our decisions to affect climate changes that are now upon us. There is no return, but maybe we can try to curb the poisons and methods that have damaged our Earth environment so our grandchildren do not have to live in bubble houses.

  67. C-M

    Exactly – I will be impressed when some “Prophet” names the city and day which a tornado strikes.

    Ahead of time.

    Weather and natural activities like earthquakes / volcanos are as old as mankind.

    Perhaps some in mankind always thought it would end soon.

    There is a rich history of “end timers” naming world ending dates in the 1800’s.

  68. Not FLDS or polygamy related, just proof that there is no shortage of wackos in this world:

    Conspirators claim the Tuscon shootings are a government hoax:

  69. There was a draft of a witness list and draft of an exhibit list that the AG gave to opposing counsel, but it was not filed of record. I’m guessing that it will be filed before the hearing on the 16th. If they decide to try to seal it, I think the press will file a motion to unseal it and file it publicly. At least those are the rumblings I’ve heard to this point and time.

    On another note, the ST linked copies of the briefs from Emack’s Appeal that was heard on the 18th. They are with the last story written about the Appeals hearing by Matt Waller. If you can’t find them, holler and I’ll post a link to the story.

  70. Does Wendell Loy Nielsen go to trial a week from Monday?

  71. No 3C, he has a pretrial a week from Monday which is June 6. His trial isn’t until August 22, which is a month after Warren’s. I think it has something to do with some conflicting stuff that Mr. Schaeffer had on his calendar.

  72. Thanks PT!

  73. REPORT FROM THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM: It’s lovely up here nashing our teeth in the telestial kingdom, except the Mussers and Allreds and Barlows are still bickering, and every 30 minutes or so I hear Uncle Rulon yelling “I want my job back!” There’s talk about blood atonement but I’m sure everyone will settle down eventually. Ervil Lebaron has repented to brothers Joel and Verlan, but I’m pretty sure they think it’s a trick and they’re sleepin with their revolvers.

    God has not said what she thinks about me, be she’s real proud of the work you good people are doin’ down there. Certainly hope to see grammy & grandpy and my father.

  74. Here’s an interesting article from Huffington Press on subject of Mitchell’s conviction. From article: “She was stripped of her favorite red pajamas, draped in white, religious robes and forced into a polygamous marriage with Mitchell.” Warren Jeffs will find like Mitchell that taking plural wives is not smart, it’s good for life in the big house.

    The comments make interesting reading also.

  75. Irs a great day when abusers like Brian get told off by victims.

    I hope every polygamist nut out there was listening!

  76. Brian mitchell is the Apple in this episode of the “Annoying Orange”

  77. LOL 3C!! Thanks for that report. Thank goodness I didn’t read it while I was drinking my coffee. I do hate having to clean my keyboard this early in the morning.

    Oh! If you get a chance, tell God I would love to hear her voice… ask her if she could please give me a call? I would only take a minute of her time.

  78. I got to page 28 of about 60 in the State’s reply to the Emack appeal which is posted in the San Angelo Times last Ben W.’s story cited above.

    Pretty interesting reading….. sounds like the appeal (as filtered through the refutal by the state) has no legs, but then again I am not a lawyer, I didn’t read Emack’s brief, and I didn’t finish the first…

    However…. according to the state Emack’s appeal of the prior ruling on the admissability of evidence has to be based on the same arguments made in the original ruling so that he can appeal the ruling. The state says that his appeal essentially brings in new ideas that were not part of the original appeal so that it is a new argument to contest the evidence and not an appeal and that is not admissiable according to the rules of law.

  79. They also sustain all of the original rulings of admissability of evidence based on the original arguments – no standing, no reason to belive search warrents obtained by the Law enforcement officer contained falsehoods on the part of the law enforcement officer or the hotline callers.

    That is you can not attack the search warrent on the basis of a hoax call per se – there has to be grounds to assume that those receiving the hoax call knowingly submitted false evidence.

  80. 3C. If you’re hearing the Barlows, Mussers and Uncle Rulon, I’m wondering if you’re tuned into a speaker from the other location, you know, the one that burns.

    Anyway, could you please ask my grandmother to send me a message regarding the ancestor we were looking for to continue our journey back our family tree. It would be oh so helpful in my genealogy.

  81. PT, sometimes the way I find out something genealogically critical in a totally random way it makes me sure my grandma must be tapping me on the shoulder.

  82. I certainly wish mine would tap me. Can you wake her up and tell her to send a message. It would be greatly appreciated. She’s probably the only one up there who cares, so there isn’t anyone else you could bug about it.

  83. Maybe Mexico isnt that much different than the US>>>>>..

    Mexico City (CNN) — While an estimated 10,000 women are victims of human trafficking in Mexico’s capital, there were only 40 investigations of the crime and three convictions in the city last year, according to a report issued this week.


    Thought this might interest someone

  85. Thanks BIB for the link

    I found it interesting, however a little disturbed they were handling the 150 ++ yr old papers with bare hands and not gloves.

    My son drew some historic infrastructure at Yellowstone for the USNPS on a medium that is supposed to last 500 + years. The science behind preserving drawings / books over centuries / Mellinnia is fascinating, and would fill a book. That would disintegrate in 100 years ha ha.

    Kindles – BAH – cant say what I think here.

  86. Real Parchment, Stamp 🙂

  87. Ah I need to email my son to see what they used. The team drew the drawings for the USNPS and they were based out of Montana.

    They drew historic bridges, buildings and other infrastructure that may not last the test of time – though the drawings will – but of course even they have their limits.

  88. Don’t be badmouthing my Kindle Stamp. I love it. I can take it with me to the pool and the pages don’t get all warped from the water.

  89. Dr. Welner, the famous psychologist who testified at Mitchell’s trial wrote this opinion piece, powerful stuff here.

    From article:

    “Smart’s dignity proclaimed to those who humbly endure defilement from other self-styled prophets: You may be a child, but you are a person! You must not enable victimization with silence. Demand to be heard!”

    He’s talking about you Warren Jeffs and those like you!

  90. A Texan: Thanks for the link. Thos statement from the article could really be applied to the flds. Just substitute flds in place of Arab.

    “Freedom will never come to the Arab world without its being forced to confront the inhumanity of its devolved treatment of women and non-Muslims. “

  91. Dr. Welner is a psychiatrist, not a psychologist.

  92. Magnitude 1.2 – UTAH
    6 km (4 miles) N (7°) from Hildale, UT; 7 km (4 miles) N (360°) from Colorado City, AZ; 14 km (9 miles) S (173°) from Springdale, UT; 102 km (63 miles) ENE ……/Quakes/uu05271414.php

  93. Dr. Welner is a psychiatrist, not a psychologist.

    Born in Brooklyn said this on May 28, 2011 at 4:20 AM

    Yes that’s correct, but what he says in article is also correct, hope that the members of FLDS read article because it applies to the as well as the Arab community.

  94. PT

    Oh, I know they are popular, as are digital cameras.

    But have you noticed, that with digital cameras, less photos are being printed as hard copies?

    Every year I run through mine and print off the favorites, otherwise they are easily lost in a computer or hard drive crash.

  95. Yeah, you’re right about the digital cameras. I too print off some stuff. I’ve even gone to creating scrapbook pages digitally.

  96. Im over in Liverpool, UK (traveling again and on my Kindle!) and as we left the dock the first street sign I see is…William Jessop Way! Its just off Princes Dock for the google map folks. I started to laugh and the cute tour guy just looked at me funny. Here I am so far away and the Jessop name pops up. He didnt know why it had that name, so I cant shed any light. Lovely city, by the way, if you get over this way.
    Anyway, I had to share the Jessop thing.

  97. So mc1199, you can access the internet on your kindle?

  98. Kindle here, Kindle there, Kindles everywhere!

    In 2000 years they will find one in a cave but it wont boot up!

  99. I get the best signal [3G] when in a port and have somehow, myseriously, tapped the ships WiFi network at sea. I shouldn’t be able to since I’m not paying for it! But, I get it. [its a lot of $$ and verrry slow] So I use it and read comments here.
    3C’s report from the Telestial Kingdom was hysterical. I walked back across the street, since we’re “stuck” here due to high seas at our next port, and took a pic of William Jessop Way. I wont be back for 3 wks, so no way to send it. But I had to have it!
    Off to dinner, its after 7pm here and all the walking’s made me hungry.

  100. Oooops. 1st sentence disappeared. Yes, I get internet.

  101. MC

    You are quite the world traveler! Glad to have you stopping by here!

  102. I guess I would get it on my iPad, but I’m not sure my Kindle is 3G.

  103. What would be scary if there was a “Warren Jeffs lane” in England.

    There probably is one in France.

  104. Stamp…France is next…I’ll look around! Wouldn’t that be a hoot! I’ll have my camera at the ready for any prairie dresses.

  105. Sounds like fun – taste some wine for me!

  106. God was happy to add a phone call to her to-do list, E.T. PT, await response from Grandma.

    mc1199, enjoying hearing from you so far away in such big cities. I am traveling also, but on a remote sheep and cattle ranch on the Snake River in Idaho, where a train passes my residence every 30 minutes, all day and all night. But I like that sort of thing.

  107. 3C, she responded, said she kicked you out of the kingdom for interrupting her golf game. Didn’t want to talk genealogy. Said she’s over that now that she knows it all and I can just wait my turn to find the answers.

  108. Magnitude 1.2 – UTAH
    6 km (4 miles) N (7°) from Hildale, UT; 7 km (4 miles) N (360°) from Colorado City, AZ; 14 km (9 miles) S (173°) from Springdale, UT; 102 km (63 miles) ENE ……/Quakes/uu05271414.php

    Anonymous said this on May 28, 2011 at 6:36 AM

    Wille must have farted. But which Willie?

  109. mc1199, you seem to contact this blog from some of the most wonderful spots in the world. Lucky You! If it is due to your job, then how fascinating a job it must be. If it is just your lifestyle, then what a great way to spend your life traveling to exotic places. Hey, send us a digital postcard on Memorial Day so you can connect with the great US of A.

  110. Im over in Liverpool, UK (traveling again and on my Kindle!) and as we left the dock the first street sign I see is;;;William Jessop Way!

    Did Warren “handle” one of the Willies so badly that he headed off to Liverpool to start a new FLDS?

    If so, which Willie is it? We are eager to know because the other Willie was apparently left behind in the Creek and is passing so much gas that he is setting off earthquakes.

  111. Kindle here, Kindle there, Kindles everywhere!

    In 2000 years they will find one in a cave but it wont boot up!

    Chaps said this on May 28, 2011 at 11:25 AM

    HA HA Chaps, my thoughts exactly. Give me a computer, but don’t mess with my books. I enjoy the smell of musty old pages bound in leather (or at least covered cardboard) that I can hold in my lap and physically turn the pages.

    Gutenberg must be rolling over in his grave!

  112. I get the best signal [3G] when in a port and have somehow, mysteriously, tapped the ships WiFi network at sea. I shouldn’t be able to since I’m not paying for it!

    mc1199, just don’t tell us the name of your ship so you don’t get busted!

  113. I am traveling also, but on a remote sheep and cattle ranch on the Snake River in Idaho, where a train passes my residence every 30 minutes, all day and all night. But I like that sort of thing.

    Third Cousin said this on May 28, 2011 at 7:37 PM

    Gee Third Cousin, that doesn’t sound very remote to me. Remote to me means NO TRAINS passing by ever – much less every 30 minutes, all day and all night. I think you somehow got “lifted up” to New York City’s Grand Central Station.

    Perhaps you should ask Madam God about “The Rapture” confusion factor because you seem to think that “The Rapture” delivered you to the Snake River in Idaho, yet you describe something more out of Lower Manhattan,
    New York – where trains pass by every 30 minutes, all day and all night.

    I only care that your Rapture Moment got you where you should (and wanted to be,) but if it didn’t pan out to your delight, I would take it up personally with the Madam God Priestess-holder.

    Should she have any questions, she should contact the high priestesshood holder at the WTF Ranch and the minor details will be worked out.

    It is usually just a minor bit of confusion over nomenclature which “the Girls” can easily work out.

    We just want you to have fun and QUIET without constantly passing trains heard during your adventure in the Tellestial Kingdom.

    Mother God’s Rapture Moment Customer Service rep #*22890

  114. That is you can not attack the search warrent on the basis of a hoax call per se – there has to be grounds to assume that those receiving the hoax call knowingly submitted false evidence.


    This makes perfect sense. If every request for help made to public safety officials had to be vetted FIRST, it would be ridiculous.

    When my car caught fire in my driveway and I called 911, they didn’t send someone to my house to see if my call was a hoax before they sent out the fire engine.

    Isn’t this why the claims that the search warrants were illegal will never fly?

  115. And` if a passing motorist saw your car on fire and called it in without identifying him or her self, but did give the adress, the emergency people would have responded.

  116. Magnitude 1.2 – UTAH
    6 km (4 miles) N (7°) from Hildale, UT; 7 km (4 miles) N (360°) from Colorado City, AZ; 14 km (9 miles) S (173°) from Springdale, UT; 102 km (63 miles) ENE
    God flinched, but then thought better and decided not today, but he is ready to destroy Short Creek unless each elder gives $2000 immediately, no exceptions.

  117. He he he

    OOOPS Warren cant kick them out if they dont comply!

  118. My comment, although tongue-in-cheek, has an element of truth. I have heard about the $2000 immediately, no exception, do whatever it takes, we need it NOW! If anyone knows more about this, I would be interested to know. Sounds to me like the fat pigs need to stuff their bellies with more apples at the sacrifice of the other animals.

  119. Editorial Reviews
    Prophet’s Prey: My Seven-Year Investigation into Warren Jeffs and the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints [Hardcover]
    Sam Brower (Author), Jon Krakauer (Introduction)

    Product Description

    “A remarkable man on many levels, Sam Brower is the real deal. Readers are apt to find his firsthand account of bringing Warren Jeffs to justice both extremely disturbing and absolutely riveting.”-Jon Krakauer, from the foreword

    From the private investigator who cracked open the case that led to the arrest of Warren Jeffs, the maniacal prophet of the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), comes the page-turning, horrifying story of how a rogue sect used sex, money, and power disguised under a favßade of religion to further criminal activities and a madman’s vision.

    Despite considerable press coverage and a lengthy trial, the full story has remained largely untold. Only one man can reveal the whole, astounding truth: Sam Brower, the private investigator who devoted years of his life to breaking open the secret practices of the FLDS and bringing Warren Jeffs and his inner circle to justice. In Prophet’s Prey, Brower implicates Jeffs in his own words, bringing to light the contents of Jeffs’s personal priesthood journal, discovered in a hidden underground vault, and revealing to readers the shocking inside world of FLDS members, whose trust he earned and who showed him the staggering truth of their lives.

    Prophet’s Prey offers the gripping, behind-the-scenes account of a bizarre world from the only man who knows the full story.

    About the Author
    Raised in the Mormon Church (mainstream LDS), private detective Sam Brower is the investigator who pushed forward the long and hard legal battles against the radical FLDS and Warren Jeffs. He lives in Cedar City, Utah.

  120. Cement, tongue-in-cheek or not, it’s true. They were even told to use credit cards if necessary. So this is expected AFTER they take away a lot of folk’s income stream by squashing the internet there.

    What’s that saying? You can’t make silk out of a sow’s ear, or something like that.

  121. Or Warren’s attorney needs more money

  122. Or maybe they need to pay the overdue taxes on the Pringle, SD flds compound.

    “The compound must also clear up its tax arrears of about $178,000 in 2008 and 2009 property taxes, according to a new resolution approved in April by the Custer County Board of Commissioners. The county’s new policy says no building or construction permits will be issued to any property owners who are delinquent on their property taxes.”

  123. Good plan on the Commissioners part.

  124. cement

    Do ya think that might be why sir Wart booted 50 homies a cupla months ago?

    No dos mil?

  125. Wonder how long Warrens atty will last while running on fumes?

  126. They also hired 2 new attorneys to give oral arguments in the Emack Appeal.

  127. Hmmm

    Warren spending money like its going out of style again….

    Good thing he has a flock of sheeple to sponge off of errr hold for ransom…

  128. Hmmmmmmm,

    Birth Date: 05/29/75
    Address : 565 E WILLIAMS, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    00:56:00 05/29/11 Johnson, Stev-H HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-6A-601 SPEED CM WCJ3 115.00 115.00

  129. HA HA

    Nephi looks like a tried and true blue FLDS homie fer sure. Caught speeding going to the bank to get that extra cupla grand under demand.

    Looks like he forgot to pay his last ticket on time. Not too serious.

  130. Also note that guy with the skull and crossbones tattoo on his neck.

    Whoa I bet he freaked ol Nephi out!

    Nephi neednt worry too much about this speeding ticket and Warrant, he really needs to buck up and watch whats happening to his life and his family.

  131. Nephi Barlow?He looks like a Wayman..I think his mother married Alvin Barlow…can anyone confirm?

  132. Nephi Isreal is the son of Nephi Rulon Barlow and Yvonne Black. Yvonne was married to James Rulon Allred after Nephi Rulon was exed. Not sure who her priesthood head is now since I think Jim Allred was also handled.

  133. Sam Brower’s book is available for pre-order on Amazon. I placed my order tonight.

  134. Is it on American Amazon? I got a google alert for it but it was for UK Amazon.

  135. Anon.8:13 Nephi had a son that everybody called Neph..This is not Nephi and Yvonnes boy that is a fact.Look at the pic.

  136. American Amazon allows you to pre-order Sam’s book.

  137. Anon@9:47 – This Nephi’s dob matches up with Nephi Rulon and Yvonne’s boy. Alvin Barlow’s Nephi was born in 1983. That Nephi’s mother is Elaine Steed. Alvin Barlow isn’t even married to a Wayman.


    Interesting study

  139. Anon@11:19 My bad,he just doesn’t look like Neph..I thought Alvin Barlow married Dan Wayman’s wife after he was booted.I should have said she was married to a Wayman.

  140. Did you notice Nephi was arrested on his birthday dang!

  141. Okay, wait. Alvin Barlow’s & Elaine Steed’s kid Nephi (DOB 1983) – is he a brother / BBAM to Leah and Edith who married Winston Blackmore? And is Alvin Barlow brother / BBAM of naughty doctor Lloyd Hammon Barlow, both sons of Alvin Smith Barlow?

    Plus, wait’ll you guys here where I’m at now…. more later.

  142. can anyone make a guess to the number of followers William Timpson has? and some names if possible? I wonder if the William followers are opening up to old abandoned family once considered apostate.

  143. LTG, I’d say it is worth talking to him.

    3C, Lloyd and Nephi (son of Elaine) are both sons of Alvin. I’m not sure who Edith and Leah’s parents are.

  144. Alvin Smith Barlow is the son of John Yeate Barlow and Martha Jessop.
    His brothers are Louis Truman, Samuel, Dan, Alma and Nephi

  145. Okay, so I’m at SLC Temple Square today [you guess whether I have moved up or down in “-‘lestial” glory since the Snake River], passing through on my way to Paris, Idaho, and of course I’m getting a tour from the missionaries, because you have to and besides there’re great kids, and a group of fundies enters the mix. Those poor missionary girls got all wide-eyed and the fundies asked them some questions. They just wanted to watch the film on JS. When they left the poor girls were shell-shocked so I asked them if they know what fundamentalists believe. They had no idea, and of course I don’t bother to tell them they follow all the teachings of JS & BY, because it’s not going to matter.

    Had a few more tours (this is certainly not my first time) and it became apparent that the missionaries know neither church history nor much western US history.

    The missionaries that gave the tour of BY’s house never even mention or acknowledge that there were other wives at the residence, only that BY and his wife and seven children lived here and were schooled here. No one ever sanitized that when I’ve been here before. Could have been an oversight I guess.

    Not trying to diss the missionaries, I’ve got many returned family members I’m proud of, but I guess I’d forgotten how young and uneducated they are at that age.

    This is long, but I’m too tired to edit.

  146. Also visited our family’s original homestead cemetery (3rd great G-pa, his 11 wives, some of his children and grandchildren). It’s small, about 40’x40′ but now it is all enclosed by strip mall, so it’s stuck between the verizon store, the check cashing place, and the car wash. Surreal. When he sold the land, Great G-pa stipulated the cemetery can never be moved. I’m glad about that.

  147. I toured BY’s house in St. George. When I asked that guide where the other wives slept in this 2 bedroom house, he didn’t miss a beat when he told me that he only brought his “traveling” wife with him to St. George.

  148. So who is the mother of Edith and Leah who were taken north as brides for Winny?

  149. 3c: Actually the fundies do not follow all of the teachings of BY and JS. BY and JS were very big on vicarious work, education and proselyting. The fundies seem to have dropped these doctrines and practices.
    When I teach a class of LDS youth church history, I bring up polygamy and the 2 official declarations. Usually 1/2 ro 2/3 of the class are already aware of it. Those who are not are shocked at hearing about it.

  150. Here’s a review of “Sons of Perdition” from a SLC newspaper:

  151. Thanks Chemist, I’ve been curious whether the mainstream LDS of today are even taught about polygamy or it being central to salvation. My family proudly handed down that information. Also, I am finding out that although I grew up in the mainstream church i was taught many fundie beliefs that are not taught by the mainstream church.

  152. PT, so far I don’t know who Leah & Edith’s mommy is, but I think they are full sisters.

  153. Let’s keep working on finding out 3C. It will be interesting to see which Barlow they belong to.

  154. I read that review of Sons of Perdition and thought it was terrible but I suppose if you are not following the situation it would be a reasonable review…

  155. Does anyone know which Cooke family she belongs to?

    Birth Date: 12/31/71
    Address : 425 W GARDEN, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    20:30:50 05/26/11 Bigelow, Kyle WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

    Birth Date: 02/01/88
    Address : 2820 E 44 N, ST GEORGE, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    12:26:00 05/26/11 Thompson, Stan SGPD

    Statute Offense

    Birth Date: 02/01/88
    Address : 2820 E 44 N, ST GEORGE, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    12:26:00 05/26/11 Thompson, Stan SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

    OK, he’s got an out of state Warrant, but he bailed out?

  158. Belated greetings from the beaches of Normandie. Very popular this week w/the D Day remembrances so close. It was surreal being there on Memorial Day. Lots of historical pictures in windows. Very sad but very interesting. A BIG hat tip to all the veterans here. Thank you for your service. Ody..the white cliffs of Dover and more history. Thanks for lettin me natter on!
    To the anon who asked… I travel for fun.
    I promise too stick to topic from here on in.

  159. Translation…Ody= Today. Ooopsy.

  160. I like hearing about your travels. Please continue.

  161. Thanks mc, sounds like the seas have settled – very historic.

    Dad was in WW2 but didnt get shipped overseas.

  162. Edith and Leahs mother is Ruth Hammon!

  163. Proud Texan..Lucille is Lee Bistline’s daughter,married to Anthony Cooke!

  164. Thanks anon, for both pieces of info.

  165. My dad was working at a DuPont factory and kept getting deferments at the request of the company. They were making fiber used in tires and various chemicals used in munitions.

  166. news from bountiful

  167. That’s really funny, HHG. They defend what they are doing, but fight to keep the rest of the world from knowing about it.

  168. Daphne Branham of the Vancouver Sun weighs in on the document posted by HHG above –

  169. Sorry, it’s Daphne Bramham, not Branham.

  170. There have been many people in Utah, whom I’ve admired and respected, who have painted Winston Blackmore in an undeserved light as a good man.

    Winston Blackmore is a POS. I can’t say it any other way. He is just a POS. I wish the people in Utah who hold him in such high esteem would realize that.

    You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.

  171. Perhaps thats because he is the lesser of two evils? I agree he is no hero.

    I think Canada is going to pick him apart.

  172. In what ways is Winston a bad actor ?

  173. Greetings from Zeebrugge, Belgium. Isn’t the decision from Canada due soon? Or did I miss it? Hopefully the judges there will see the folly of the illusion put forth by FLDS and start taking action against the child briders. The claim of religious right, while respected in Canada, still doesn’t excuse the breeding of children by children.
    PS..Belgian chocolate is wonderful!

  174. MC1199, the decision in the Canadian Case is expected sometime in July. I will give advance notice so that you can tune in to the streaming video on the internet when the decision is rendered. Enjoy the cruise.

  175. You went from Normandy, to England and then back to Belgium? Didn’t you say you went to see the cliffs of Dover?

    Too bad it’s not the season for fresh mussels.

  176. Nocturnal

    I would list his major problems, besides the obvious polygamy, as
    exploiting child brides,

    exploiting child labor,

    and ignoring tax laws and any other law in his way.

    I’m sure there are more.

  177. Well Al Capone’s gangster reign ended with him going to jail for tax evasion. Not sure if they jail tax evaders today or not. But, if that is what it takes to get Winston put away to save other little girls – I am all for it.
    You can give salaries to family members who don’t actually show up at work. But, they have to pay taxes on it. No telling how many family members will get tax bills and penalties. That should put a nice big dent in the company books. Perhaps those there will get the – “send in $2,000 each decreed.” – like the Warrenites.

  178. Interesting posts over at Texas Polygamy blog, read the posts from May 26, to the last post, a “FLDS” member came on and tried to defend the ole felonious profit Warren Jeffs, seems they didn’t like posts about Jeffs jailhouse confession and Jeffs being compared to his fellow profit Brian David Mitchell.

    Wonder which FLDS member it was doing the posting?

  179. Whoa,

    Dude, borrowed his brain, take it back please I cant handle it, that guy is drinking full strength koolaid!

    and here I thought Charlie Sheen was barking at the moon!

  180. Yes, I read that, thanks for the link, AT. He is a good example about how people who believe on faith will refuse to accept facts even when confronted with them; it tends to just make their faith stronger. He sees the video and then turns his discussion to the evils of the outside world, not the fact that Jeffs himself denied that he was or had ever been profit. He also says that Jeffs took “that girl” to protect her and that he never touched her – not knowing that there were many girls in the 12-14 age range and that e had babies with these young girls at that age. Not knowing or not willing to believe it, hard to say….

  181. Anon, thanks for the info on Leah & Edith’s mom being Ruth Hammon, and I have their dad as Alvin Barlow. I assume he is the son of Alvin Smith Barlow (son of John Y. & Martha), can someone confirm? And who Alvin Jr’s mother is?

    I’m leaving range but should be back in tomorrow night.

  182. From Daphne’s Bramham’s blog about Winston Blackmore and his attempts at tax evasion –

  183. Nocturnal Anon, I think Winston Blackmore’s two troubling ‘goofs’ was trying to be the Polyg PosterBoy which lead to his bluff of wanting a Charter of Rights and Freedom reference case, which he got started, then had to fake a reason to bow out and not testify, too funny. Then his days as the education director/pricipal of Bountiful’s school seem numbered and it may trigger another investigation. Today he’s done the Bishop ‘Poofer’ trick and suddenly seems to be camera shy.

  184. Betty, yes we zigzag back and forth. Our ports aren’t far apart, here. There were mussels on menu in several places in Brugge. They looked tastey but, I was short on time. No time for leisurely lunch. They are tastey little devils.

  185. I would not eat them this time of year – they are probably frozen, not fresh. The North Sea has not changed to fit the menu.

  186. Betty, my father too, in the WWII, was sent home to work at Forestone Truck tire division. His sergeant explained to him that they had plenty of infantry soldiers but not enough shift foremen that knew how to make commercial truck tires. He stayed enlisted and was paid by Uncle Sam but was on loan to the Firestone Company for the duration.

  187. I hear tell from a librarian friend of mine that his very large California county library system received, unsolicited, a set of several hundred pages of various warnings and revelations of Warren Steed Jeffs from the FLDS. No idea if this is going to be accepted by this very large library system.

  188. Breaking news!

    Another polygynist pedo gets sentenced to life!


    “A serial sex offender has been sentenced to spend the rest of his life in prison for kidnapping and raping a California girl and holding her captive for 18 years while fathering her two children.

    A judge on Thursday imposed the maximum possible sentence of 431 years to life on 60-year-old Phillip Craig Garrido, calling the defendant’s treatment of Jaycee Dugard evil and reprehensible.”

    Read more:

  189. As a side note I googled up some jeffs screed and the Bahrainies think his warning letter to them was from the COJCOLDS.

    Boy, were they wrong. But thats what happens. We are likely as ignorant on the various islamic sects. I do recognize there are many levels from extreme to peaceful, but I dont have the spreadsheet on them – it would like fill a volume of kindles.

  190. I think the Moslems are confused by all the different sects of Moslems.

  191. Here’s more on the story that chaps posted earlier, Jaycee Dugard was kidnapped by and man & wife couple who claimed as Mitchell, Jeffs, Koresh and other like them have claimed that God told them to do it.

    Dugard’s victim statement was very similar to that made last week by Elizabeth Smart.
    Jaycee Dugard’s statement:

    “I chose not to be here today because I refuse to waste another second of my life in your presence,” Dugard wrote in a portion of the statement directed to Phillip Garrido. “Everything you ever did to me was wrong and I hope one day you will see that.”

    “I hated every second of every day for 18 years,” she said. “You stole my life and that of my family.”

    Read entire article:

  192. Sons of Perdition is on OWN (Oprah Winfrey Network) tonight at 8:00 CDT.

  193. Anybody gone to view the June ‘National Geographic’ article on ‘Child Brides’ in Yemen and India? I predict a third feature article will be written connecting their Utah polygamy expose` to this ‘Child Bride’ edition, likely once Warren Steed Jeffs trial is ended and under appeal. Warren’s ‘hallmark’ wedding photos line up fairly shockingly to these Yemeni bridegroom pixs.

  194. That really makes me mad. The pious judging of the Yemeni culture while framing a very similar culture in Utah as a wholesome community of religion and hard work. They should be ashamed!

  195. I think after those Texas convictions, Nat Geo had a magazine and hat eating party!

  196. How can you profess wholesomeness when you believe that women and children are the property of the Priesthood and Prophet? Denying fundamental equality as a tenet to your beliefs only establishs a primer for looking at offspring and wives as material objects of patriarchal men. This brand of theocracy collides with US Democracy at it’s initial stages. We know that ‘Child Brides’ have been barter at celestial exchanges where the brides lives are caste by the prophet, bishops and priesthood members. Highly illegal and direct violation to existing statutes has not stopped these crimes from being enacted. ‘One Man Rule’ allowed now within the Warrenite FLDS Church further reveals the abuses inherent in such a dictatorial mindset. Warren hasn’t been able to make it work and rather he’s well on his way to destroying his sect in a failed attempt to dominate it. Honest and hardworking values does little to remedy these abuses and really is just a screen to cover up the enslavement and domineering controls. Criminal activities under a religious guise is just a more heinous and onerous form of abuse(s) and not some legitimate cause to be legalized or tolerated.

  197. I sure hope so, Stamp. They were OWNED.

  198. Yes I saw the Nat Geo piece on child brides, and I highly recommend it to those who have not yet seen it.

  199. Here is the link :

  200. From the article cited above –

    “Speaking quickly, we asked, How are you all prepared for your wedding night? Are you taught what to expect?

    The women glanced toward the doorway, where the sheikh was absorbed in his phone call. They leaned forward. “The girls do not know,” one said. “The men know, and they force them.”

    Could they tell us about young Ayesha and her elephant husband of 50? The women all started talking at once: It was an awful thing; it should have been forbidden, but they were helpless to stop it. Little Ayesha screamed when she saw the man she was to marry, said a young woman named Fatima, who turned out to be Ayesha’s older sister. Someone alerted the police, but Ayesha’s father ordered her to put on high heels to look taller and a veil to hide her face. He warned that if he was sent to jail, he would kill Ayesha when he got out. The police left without troubling anyone, and at present—the women talked urgently and quietly now, because the sheikh appeared to be ending his conversation—Ayesha was living in a village two hours away, married.”

  201. RICO, the current June Nat. Geo. magazine quotes that 10-12 million ‘Child Brides’ ceremonies are believed to occur annually worldwide. Mostly, in the Third World and Islamic nations. This ought to give the FLDS Apologists renewed hope that most Americans will recant their opposition because this form of child abuse is so prevalent outside of the US. International Center for Research of Women (ICRW) not only tracks and is woring to combat ‘Child Brides’ but, also, abuses from polygamy.

  202. Hm thta sounds right.

    If Osama and Ibrahim do it, well we should be good doing it in the USA!

    Religious freedom and all. But then thre are those pesky Aztec and Mayan sacrificial practices.

    Saw the PBS series on them. OUCH. They were pretty quick to take your heart out if they thought it would appease some God.

  203. Finally saw Sons of Perdition. Did not see the followup discussion unfortunately. It broke my heart to see the boys who are trying to survive. In the past I have been more concerned with the girls and children and never paid much attention to the lost boys. This was pitiful.


    Winston Blackmore loses his bid for the evidence ban.

  205. Gotta love that hat

    JR Blackmore & Slaves, LTD

  206. Oops Winny, you suck it up and pay the piper.

  207. 3C, just checked my stuff and Ruth Hammon was the wife of Alvin Smith Barlow Sr.

  208. Canada doesnt play nice like the US courts.

    They assessed WinkieDink 50,000 for this frivolous weasle maneuver.

  209. Winston’s problems seeming to be having babies. How’s a card carrying theocrat supposed to exist in a monogamous world that expects him to pay his taxes? Polygistan isn’t recognised as a legitimate or sovreign nation and Warrenites are experiencing the exact same problems in the Lower 48. What’s this world coming to when fundys are being held to a citizenry standard, it’s persecution and their rights as citizens are past due!

    Winston Blackmore was the proponent of the landmark BC Supreme Court reference case being called and held, now he looks to be it’s primary defendant, funny how the wheels of Justice turn and the juggernaut stamps out it’s judgments.

  210. Good news from Canada! Bet Winston is sorry he started this mess. Its the old…Be careful what you wish for… I’ll hafta read the Canadian newspaper later.
    I am reading the funniest murder mystery “Bubba and the Dead Woman”. Takes place in Texas. There is a passage where polygamy and Utah are mentioned. 1 character says its legal there..the other says, no its not, they just dont do anything about it! It made me laugh.
    Im in Copenhagen for the day. Off to play tourist.

  211. Have fun mc.

  212. Yeah, Winnie seems to be a poor player of “Polygamy Poker”

    The revelation of all those internationally trafficed sex slave children put the judge in a lock box.

    People dont just forget these types of crimes.


    BTW, just watched a movie, great accents from some of the extras.


    there would be no crime

    no fear

    no prisons

    but we dont live in a PERFECT WORLD….

    Starring Clint Eastwood, Kevin Costner, Laura Dern

    Shot on location in rural Texas.

    San Angelo, Huntsville prison and points scattered about mentioned.

  213. Is this one of Marion’s kids?

    Birth Date: 04/21/81
    Address : POBOX 401 (CENTENIAL PK), Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    21:30:00 06/03/11 Other Agency COLO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  214. Proud Texan..He is George Hammon’s Boy!

  215. By which wife Anon?

  216. The founder of “the Polygamy Club” in Malaysia has now founded the “Obedient Wives Club”
    Anyone up for joining ? Obedient women seldom become famous…

  217. Proud Texan..I am not sure her name,i know she was a Wyler before she married George.

  218. Betty: That really makes me mad. The pious judging of the Yemeni culture while framing a very similar culture in Utah as a wholesome community of religion and hard work. They should be ashamed!


    I totally agree.

  219. Anon@11:37, a Wyler and in the Wyler/Chatwin group who use both names interchangeably?

  220. PT,

    I just confirmed that Leah and Edith Barlow have the same father but different mothers. Sorry about supplying bad info earlier.

  221. From the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on Winston Blackmore –

  222. Blackmore had specifically asked the court to ban the publication of testimony related to polygamy. His lawyer told the court Blackmore is worried such evidence could be used against him in a potential criminal prosecution.

    But Justice Campbell Miller ruled Blackmore himself has given numerous interviews on the subject


    No kidding! Now all of a sudden the “see my wholesome guitar playing polygamous lifestyle” spotlight isn’t so wonderful any more.

  223. Proud…Charles Wyler is her dad.They are from Salt Lake,her mother is Abbey Wyler.I think she is married to Donald Richter now.

  224. How many concubines does Donald Richter have ?

  225. Gee, I wonder why child labor laws would be important to Utah? :sarcasm:

  226. On today’s date in 1886, my great great grandfather, already serving a five year federal sentence for polygamy, was sentenced for having married a 17 year old girl. The New York Times reported he was not contrite:

    “He was very defiant, interrupting the court from time to time. In reply to the usual question as to whether he would in future obey the law, he said: ‘No, sir. It is my intention to obey the law of God, though I be imprisoned for life. I know I’m in the right and I will never obey the law of any man, prison or no prison, life or death.’ (NYT 06/05/1886).

    Served his time, went home, and had several more children with each of his wives.

  227. What was your great great grandfather’s name TC ?

  228. George Cotton Wood Sr., may he rest in peace.

  229. God never ordered anybody to get some tail. He’s not nearly as interested in sex as we are.

  230. I didnt know they imprisoned any in the 18 hundreds, what state was that?

  231. Stamp: Many LDS men were imprisoned in the 1800s in Utah for the practice of polygamy, also called cohabitation. The charges were federal charges and the prisons were federal prisons. George Reynolds of the famous Reynold’s decision was one of them. Utah did not become a state until 1896 so the governor and other officials prior to that were federal appointees.

  232. State of Utah. My people came over there in 1848. My great grandpa grew up hiding whenever they saw strangers coming toward the farm.

    What surprised me is that back then there was a problem with marrying a 17 year old. I’m glad there was, but I would have thought marrying that young was common then.

  233. Here’s great great grandpa with his cohorts in prison: He is the shorter guy at the prison doorway opposite the prison guard.

  234. So Chemist am I correct in infering that since 1896 to today the fundamentalist folks have continued to defy both Federal and then State laws against their chosen and illegal lifestyles? The State of Utah at it’s very inception specifically outlawed polygamy in it’s Constitution, so just like all prior and later states it never recognized not condoned plural marriages and their are no legal rights contained by any bogus claims that preach/teach otherwise.

  235. Been defying the law since way before 1896 CAJim, it was against territorial law as well.

  236. 3C is correct in that polygamy in the US and it’s territories was illegal prior to 1896. From 1896 on it was illegal by both federal law and Utah state law.

    LDS President John Taylor spent much of his time as the LDS church president in hiding to avoid being arrested by federal LE people.

  237. I’m not proud of the polygamy, but am proud the lengths they were willing to go to stand up for what they believed.

  238. Yes, 3D Cuz against the territorial law and Mexican law before that and Nauvoo, Illinois, Kirtland, Missouri and Kirtland, Ohio laws, too boot! Ministers needed, back then, to be registered and recognized as licensed or registered with local officials to legally wed. Legitimate marriages needed to be properly licensed, witnessed, written and registered with the local authorities in order to be lawfully recognized. No ‘hocus pocus’ celestial sealings or ceremonies devoid of state sanctions were legal. I have noticed that the Canadian Bountiful folks are asking for specific legal definitons of unlawful bigamy statutes so they can skirt the law and flirt with the Courts meaning and interpretation(s). There is just a small group of fundies here that can’t seem to grasp the meaning or intent of any law passed that regulates or restricts lawful wedlock.

  239. Sorry, typo should be Independence, Missouri vs. Kirtland.

  240. I can understand that, 3C. It is something to be proud of.

  241. Ohhh..WOW–TC..that is an awesome picture.

  242. That’s Apostle / First Counselor George Quayle Cannon seated in the middle.

  243. Cannon ? Any relation to Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon?

  244. Lot’s of LDS were arrested in the 1800s. Some multiple times for refusing to abandon their families.

    Haha, Check out the Mormon Hair blog. The second photo down today shows the outside of Warrens compound with a “beware of dog” sign by the door. Oh, the irony.

  245. Dr. Martha Hughes was married to George Quayle Cannon’s brother, Angus Munn Cannon.

  246. I am reading the biography of Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon and it is a fascinating read. I will post some interesting quotes from it later this evening.

  247. From the Biography of Martha Hughes Cannon, MD – “Pioneer, Polygamist, Politician – The Life of Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon” by Mari Grana :

    A Letter to Her Husband Angus Munn Cannon, speaking on the subject of her polygamous marriage :
    “(our polygamous marriage is) ….a few stolen interviews thoroughly tinctured with the dread of discovery…I am thankful that God so ordained my destiny to embrace the celestial principle of marriage when I did…Had my movements towards marriage been left or deferred until the present time, and that I had merely human instincts to guide me, I should have given the whole plural system a wide berth.”

  248. Heard that the $2000 request for funds is due to attorneys for the group wanting to be paid monies owed to bring accounts current. Rumor has it they threatened to quit if not paid in full.

  249. I presume the men who have been handled are on their own in regards to paying their defense attorneys. Merril Jessop and Wendell Nielsen come to mind as two people in that situation.

  250. There are QUITE a few attorneys to pay – and I would gather there is a good share of them left holding the bag.

    There was a list posted that had, at one time, some thirty count em THIRTY litigations going at once, and as that was a year ago its likely doubled.

    The Canadian thing blew up, the UEP keeps chugging, and all their appeals are racking the bills up.

    I dont think its only a threat to quit but in some cases bill collection activities are becoming bothersome by some of the earlier attorneys. At one time Parker was dinging them for 400,000 and that was way before Warren warmed up his YFZ rodeo.

    Two grand today, five grand tomorrow, its not getting better its getting worse.

  251. Their strategy of tying up the system with litigation worked well as long as they were dealing with small, local government units. But since they branched out from the Creek, it’s back firing on them! Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of guys.

  252. According to some, Merril and Wendell have been let back in as stewards for their families. They aren’t priesthood heads, only stewards.

  253. I’ve not heard of this “stewards” thing. Is this new or has that happened before?

  254. How is a “steward” different from a “priesthood holder?”

  255. A “steward” takes care of whatever he is assigned. To me that just means they have been knocked back to holding the office of Elder which means they have enough priesthood to oversee their own families. It’s like falling off the top of the ladder to start over again from the bottom.

  256. Warren’s impending trial will likely cause him to compromise on items and things that he hasn’t given ground on in the past. He’s been in prison now for three (3) years and his procpects of ever getting out have been dimming with each passing month of incarceration. Now that he finds himself directly under the control of Sheriff Doran his influence has again begun to lessen and his micro-management style is impaired. Allowing Wendell and Merril some access and presence probably has more to do with his need to attempt to control than any concerns for either of them. Once Wendell and Merril’s trials are completed they will be more expendible to him, again. Willie R. Jessop’s statement that Warren’s moral indefensibility at trial may prove to be his increased lack of control and undoing.

  257. Betty,
    I was thinking the same thing. When you had access to thousands in cash and millions to back it up and a compliant local, county, and even state government it was easy to “win” by litigating to death any ex’s fighting for custody or property. They simply could not compete.

    But when they branched out and now have to litigate trials in several states, uep trust in several branches of government, and the cause of polygamy in a Canada’s system, as well as tax woes, etc., that strategy eventually fails, particularly if you told everybody to cease economic activity and you lose your grip on their finances.

    I have two friends that got in the site of the federal government on different issues. Both claimed innocence but eventually folded because they did not have the resources litigate forever…. I am hoping that after the state trials are over the feds will finish them off on all remaining issues, particularly child trafficking, labor and tax laws, and civil rights abuses so that they ‘start over’ with an understanding that if you live in our society you must comply with our society’s laws.

  258. CalJim
    a long time ago I was attempting to place myself in Jeffs position and thus “understand” him. What I really had a hard time understanding was the idea that if I were in charge of the faithful and if multiple marriage was the key to salvation how I could not assist my flock and spread the wives around, but instead hoard up some 80 of them. Over and over again I kept coming back to this until I finally decided that he simply does not care about his sheeple, he does not place their welfare in his heart to guide himself.

    In short there is no and never has been any concern with the physical or spiritual needs of his flock even when attempting to view what that concern might be within their world view. Ditto for Winston.

    The only guide he and Winston have for their flocks is not in the celestial principle of multiple wives as a test of priesthood, but in obedience as defined by themselves.

    There is no concern for the individual and their spiritual needs.


    Story about the Pringle compound.

  260. It is good for the county and other taxpayers that the flds paid the overdue taxes to Custer County, SD.

  261. Cant escape death and taxes.

    Not even if you are FLDS.

  262. Can’t escape FLDS notwithstanding death, taxes, tithes, good works, or willingness to marry your GGGpa. It’s late and i’m bitchy.

  263. Greetings from Russia with Love. So far, no other interesting street names, altho I dont read Russian or Estonian. Yesterday, in Estonia, I passed by the Texas Cantina. It was closed, so sadly no food/drink review.
    This “steward” title…is this a newly made up name to make them feel like they are sorta…but not really…back in the flock? Is a steward still required to pay thru the @#& to support the profit?

  264. TC

    Too funny!


    The only polygamists I’m aware of in Russia are in Chechnya? Perhaps I’m wrong, though I have never heard of big brother comrade doling out more than one wife depending on worthiness.

    I agree that this “Stewardship” thing is just game playing, oh hell why dont they call themselves Prophet level 1, Apostles, the Minister of Mean or any other variety of names that make them feel like they are something they are not.


    Ah that old chestnut of the lonely excess women…

    Anyone want to take a bet that the 11 million excess women in Russia are over 55 years old????? This chart seems to back that up.

  266. Yabut

    It gives those muslims an excuse to chase children.

    Warren has 80 wives, as I recall he was mostly interested in the under – 20 demographic in his harem.

  267. Half a good man is better than no man at all….except that in my book, a good man is a one woman man….

  268. Back in WW2 there were millions of Russian soldier casualties. I dont recall a move to polygamy – though there is one case, I think in South America a country did that.

    Thats the only case I can think of – the rest, to my knowledge, is all about religion.

    The gender ratio argument is a red herring and a poor one at that.

  269. The Canadian Reference Case witness testimony videos are now on the Shield and Refuge Website.

  270. For me, in the BC Canadian reference case, Truman Oler’s testimony spoke volumes. Firstly, he pointed out that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was not taught, only the religious freedom viewpoint was given any emphasis. Secondly, educational degrees in higher learning were not given any value or import to this ‘down-on-the-farm’ community. Lastly, Truman spoke of becoming gamefully employed at the church owned and operated mill for a mere $80 weekly wage that rose to $150 per week, once the trainee was proficient, this wage scale was below Canadian legal limits and denied anyone from achieving economic self-sufficiency/independence. The inhibited educational skills, lack of civil rights knowledge and under $4.00 per hour poverty scale wages left Truman trapped within his own community. Little more than share-cropper future was afforded by this covert sects fanatical leadership. Public education was afforded to them but prevented access by the church controlled curriculum, talented/qualified students were provided not means to achieve higher learning and lawful wages were not provided to insure economic constraint was held by the church leadership.

  271. oh yeah both the young men and women are slaves.

  272. Yes RICO, slavery was made illegal by the passage of the 13TH Amendment. Everyone knows that no onw can ‘OWN’ another person, but Mormon fundamentalist literally teach that the prophet and priesthood does own the women and children in their church. This teaching goes back to when slavery was practiced in the US but in 1865 the 13TH Amendment was passed and adopted as the Supreme Law. Contained within the 13th Amendment is the term, namely ‘involuntary servitude’, which today has taken on far greater meanings within our society in three-ways : The use of physical force(normally associated with pimps and prostitutes), then state-imposed legal coercion(normally associated with incarceration or an involuntary military draft) and finally servitude that comes from a Fraud or deceit of the servant when they are either a minor, an immigrant or mentally incompetent(children can not legally sign contracts for this reason). So the last category of ‘Involuntary Servitude’ hits upon the practices of the FLDS Church in specific references to there being a demonstrable frauds and deceits practiced upon their own children. Willfully indoctrinating a child to believe actions or conducts are right when they are in fact illegal violates the 13TH Amendment.

    Funny how there are adamant Defenders of properly conducted, ‘Search and Seizure’ and ‘Freedom of Religion’ clauses but they are, somehow mute, when the ‘Involuntary Servitude’ clause is violated? So can ‘Child Brides’ legally sign marriage contracts? Can a ‘Child Bride’ seek any legal recourse through existing family law, if the marriage is a celestial sealing? What recourse does a ‘Child Bride’ possess beyond solely making an appeal to the prophet to be divorced/seperated/released from this heinous brand of betrothal? Let’s all see how big of a consequence exBishop Merril Jessop receives for his fake matrimonial wedlock(s) of ‘Child Brides’.

  273. Excellent post, only correction I would make would be to call their church a “Chruch”


    Amazingly enough, a woman advocating sex slaves to keep Islamic men from “fornication”. The logic there escapes me – don’t you fornicate with a sex slave???? Anyway, if there is such a thing as a female Uncle Tom, this woman is it.

  275. Good article on kody brown and his tribe on tlc, and its effects on the children.

  276. Some interesting comments on Disqus…

  277. An interesting blog for your review – The Polygamist’s Daughter –

  278. Chruch? It’s not enough that I can’t consume beverages while reading this blog but I cannot even HOLD them? Really?

    I have told you guys that Kody Brown’s fourth wife is my cousin, right? Down the Jessop line. She’s the wife of my first cousin’s nephew.

  279. TC…you practically need you own Wikipedia page with your family tree! You can call it Polygipedia! Many here could have their own pages. It would fill volumes. It’s amazing!
    Russia day 2

  280. Good to hear from you MC1199, don’t forget I was in Paris last week, okay, well, Paris, Idaho. I was stuck so far from food that i spent a fabulous evening at a ward spaghetti feed fundraiser. And for those who will know, Chesterfield, Idaho!!!

  281. well, I started a blog. only a couple things there now… but I plan on updating it with a lot of the e-mail correspondence that PT, Stamp and myself had before I left, and I might upon request, grab some of my posts from here that I made before I left and attempt to put it all in chronological order. try to add my own perspective on the situations I deal with in relation to growing up there and such. anyway, if you’re interested, here’s a link.

  282. I can’t wait to discover your blog! Truly, thanks for letting us know.

  283. Wow. I started to say so much stuff that I’m a little overwhelmed. My heart I hope is in the right place. Please stay among us, and don’t go.

  284. please feel free to leave comments, I’ll answer them as much as I can.

  285. And, oh, YES, plygipedia is a FABULOUS euphemism for my family!

  286. I thing your blog is a great idea yehaaa. It could give inspiration to others who are on the fence about leaving.

  287. yeehaa

    I think its ok to use posts from here if you reference the site, you may have seen a lot of news articles posted here in similar fashion.

    Look forward to seeing your site when I have more time.

  288. When is the first June trial?

  289. A new blog about the TLC program “Sister Wives” which documents that at least one of the wives was receiving welfare subsidies as late as May 2010 while the family was already receiving payments from TLC for the program.

  290. yehaaa I checked out your blog and I must say that what I’ve read touched my heart more than you will ever know. We don’t know each other and often times strangers lives touch in one way or another – in person- via the net- history- lifes experiences etc.

    There is an old song titled On a Clear Day and I thought of those words when I read your blog.

    On a clear day,
    rise and look around you,
    and you’ll see who you are.
    On a clear day,
    how it will astound you
    That the glow of your BEING outshines every star.
    You’LL FEEL PART OF every mountain,
    sea and shore,
    You CAN HEAR from far and hear a WORLD you’ve never HEARD before.
    On a clear day,
    on a clear day,
    you can see forever,
    and ever, and ever more

    Best wishes in all that you do and a very heartfelt thank – you for sharing

  291. BiB

    Read that, didnt see the comments on the welfare tho – is there another source?


  292. Chaps –
    Christine Brown was receiving government assistance until May 2010. This is many months AFTER the checks from TLC began to arrive. See the documentation here –

  293. My husband announced the other day that he has been reading “the law of one” and has decided that it’s all true. This includes a prophesy that around 2012 there will be “The Harvest” in which some souls will migrate to “the fourth vibration”.

    He is generally a very well grounded and kind person. I don’t think he’s crazy. He was very fundamentalist Christian but broke off with them during his divorce to his first wife. He has been mostly buddhist since then and is fairly active in a local yoga and meditation group. I was not expecting this at all.

    This is really freaking me out. I had friends who got into this group in the 80’s and David Wilcox, the founder of this group is IMHO a total charlatan. Hubby has been talking about The Harvest a lot. I asked him if he was concerned about the end of the world and he said no, we are all spirit and it doesn’t matter. WTF? Personally, I don’t think anyone but the devil provides specific prophesies of the end times, but I don’t know how to verbalize that belief with him.

    Don’t know whether to just wait this one out, or what. He isn’t doing much of anything except reading at this point.

  294. Web page in case you don’t know what I’m talking about…..

  295. The law of one material does not make specific prophesies. It’s very vague about what is actually going to happen and when. David Wilcox is a popularizer but definitely not the founder.

  296. Thanks, Anon, I’ll look into that. It’s really the specific prophesy that worries me.

  297. Eeeek, Betty, I feel for ya. This must be quite disconcerting. I hope he doesn’t start talking about donating money.

  298. I went and read the section on “The Harvest” in the original writing. It’s pretty specific. It says the physical earth is going to shift on it’s axis, the outer shell of the earth will crack and the electronic basis of the earth’s matter will change, suddenly as a clock strikes the hour. This will happen approximately 40 years from the prophesy, or in 2012.

  299. Well, but it also says “The value of prophecy must be realized to be only that of expressing possibilities. Moreover, it must be, in our humble opinion, carefully taken into consideration that any time/space viewing, whether by one of your time/space or by one such as we who view the time/space from a dimension, shall we say, exterior to it will have a quite difficult time expressing time measurement values. Thus prophesy given in specific terms is more interesting for the content or type of possibility predicted than for the space/time nexus of its supposed occurrence.”

    and “We may note at this point while you ponder the possibility/probability vortices that although you have many, many items which cause distress and thus offer seeking and service opportunities, there is always one container in that store of peace, love, light, and joy. This vortex may be very small, but to turn one’s back upon it is to forget the infinite possibilities of the present moment. Could your planet polarize towards harmony in one fine, strong, moment of inspiration? Yes, my friends. It is not probable; but it is ever possible.”

  300. …and don’t sell all your worldy possessions either, Betty….

  301. …make that … don’t sell all your worldly possessions, Betty….

  302. Thanks, Anon. And, don’t worry, BiB, I’m carrying on with the current retirement program. Based on my ancestors and his, we are in for a long life and need to plan accordingly.

  303. Talked to the hubby about it last night and he said that the only change he plans to make is to up the priority of daily meditations. Maybe it’s just a phase. LOL.

  304. I think in every century there have been prophecies about the world coming to an end.
    Often used by religions to keep people in check. I believe that with the reckless poisoning of our earth in the 20th century we will see calamities that are of unforeseen
    precedent. Mother Earth is about to throw up, we are past of the point of no return and it is up to our individual conscience if we want to participate in this poisoning or not. Or at least try what we individually can.

  305. On her blog today Boots discloses the welfare and food stamp expenses for Mohave County and she promises an expose’ of the Brown family’s bankruptcy filings and food stamp usage, which apparently occurred while they were on the payroll of TLC.

  306. Proud…Charles Wyler is her dad.They are from Salt Lake,her mother is Abbey Wyler.I think she is married to Donald Richter now.

    Anonymous said this on June 5, 2011 at 5:40 PM

    I think Abbey Wyler is also the mother of Wayland Wightman Wyler who is a registered sex offender for sodomizing his 11 year old adopted daughter and is currently housed in Purgatory Correctional Facility. Wayland was sentenced to the Utah State Prison at Point of the Mountain several years ago, but somehow was transferred back to Purgatory in Hurricane, Utah last November.

    Wayland is a real POS child molester.

  307. Well he will be in Purgatory for 27 more years!

  308. A “steward” takes care of whatever he is assigned. To me that just means they have been knocked back to holding the office of Elder which means they have enough priesthood to oversee their own families. It’s like falling off the top of the ladder to start over again from the bottom.

    ad hoc said this on June 7, 2011 at 8:36 AM

    So ad hoc, is a “steward” still expected to pay his lawyer tithing kicker of $2000 per month?


    Born in Brooklyn said this on June 10, 2011 at 2:06 AM

    hmmm, I wonder it the Salt Lake Tribune will threaten to sue this blog for posting their article? They have a history of doing this with nonprofit charity websites. The SLTrib can get pretty nasty when it suits them.

  310. Boots has found the March 2010 bankruptcy filing of Christine Allred Brown and she is blogging on it –

  311. Jeremy Johnson was arrested in Phoenix by the IRS yesterday

  312. BIB

    Thanks for the link, will check it out. Sounds like those “Sister Wives” were bleeding the beast as rumored.

  313. Waymans charging docs

  314. Say Anonymous I would like to point out that paying the required $2,000 a month speaks more to “Relegated FeeDumb’ than ‘Religious Freedom’. Don’t these FLDS Church faithful realized that their Prophet Jeffs brought all of these legal consequences and attorney fees upon himself and the faithful by poking the ‘Beast’ with his prophetic staff? Seems like the backers of Willie. E. Jessop might be looking for an exit strategy, that the Prophet Jeffs has handed to them with his, ‘I am not the prophet’ admission. The facts revealed in Warren Jeffs trial are going to be very interesting to see if it forms a ‘Warren-has-gotta-go’ contingency of FLDS faithful. I suspect that some of the ‘handled’ FLDS faithful are awaiting the trial to be exonerated from Warren’s leadership on moral grounds proven at his trial.

    Willie R. ‘Thug’ Jessop will not likely be the Press spokesperson and I am curious about who will characterize Warren’s side while the trial unfolds. I would suspect that they are likely to rely upon a ‘third party’ attorney to perform that role but the comments will be met now with a greater degree of Press scrutiny and skepticism. Also, Willie R. ‘Thug’ Jessop is going to be silenced and ‘hog-tied’ and that isn’t going to look very credible.

  315. HA HA

    Boots post “Polygamy works great with OPM”

    (other peoples money)


    Yeah they would fall on their face if they had to fund their own foolishness!!!

  316. RICO, isn’t it rather amazing how many rotten apples lay at the foot of this righteous tree? I think there is a reference in the good book about you will know them by their fruit that they will bare. I am still waiting to see how many rotten apples are up in the BC orchard, once the ‘Child Bride’ investigation by the Royal Canadian Mounties is completed.

  317. Whoa! This is one of the most disturbing things Ive read in quite some time. I’m actually surprised the Deseret news printed it.


    “IWorks and its shell companies tried to appeal to customers by prominently displaying the American flag or a picture of President Barack Obama on their websites.

    Sources formerly associated with the company told the Deseret News it targeted people believed to be impoverished and less educated, particularly single African-American mothers in the South.”


  318. “So ad hoc, is a “steward” still expected to pay his lawyer tithing kicker of $2000 per month?
    anonymoua said this on June 12, 2011 at 1:53 AM ”

    I don’t know what the faithful elders are required to pay, but a “steward” would be expected to do whatever the faithful are required to do, including pay tithes. If you’re “in,” you pay.

  319. Cajim

    Yeah, and I wonder when the feds will pounce on them. This isnt looking good for the FLDS – the bad acts have really been piling up.

    If transporting children across borders for sex isnt the tipping point, what is? Murder?

    Several sects have been involved in that too.

  320. I read that blog.

    Victoria M. Reynolds is a pretty remarkable lady. I like her philosophy.

  321. From the article Stamp linked to above it says:
    But an FBI investigative report obtained the Deseret News shows a darker side.

    Johnson, according the report, was among a dozen men involved in holding hostage a man who apparently owed Johnson money.

    Johnson invited the man to a June 29, 2006, business meeting at his home in Santa Clara. When the man arrived, a “big guy” identified in the report as possibly a bounty hunter or bouncer greeted him. The next thing the man remembers is waking up on the floor with his hands handcuffed behind his back. The big guy sat him on a chair and restrained his legs with zip ties.

    Johnson, according to the report, arrived after the man was tied up. The man was held for about four or five hours before being released.

    In an interview with the FBI about the incident, Johnson wasn’t particularly forthcoming.

    “Johnson refused to identify the individual who arranged for the ‘big guy’ to be at the home,” according to the report. He also would not provide contact information of others who were there.

    “During the meeting, Johnson was very careful not to ask … for money or anything else because Johnson did not want to be accused of extortion.”

    Yeah what a great “philanthropist” this Jeremy Johnson is!

  322. Willie R. ‘Thug’ Jessop will not likely be the Press spokesperson and I am curious about who will characterize Warren’s side while the trial unfolds. I would suspect that they are likely to rely upon a ‘third party’ attorney to perform that role but the comments will be met now with a greater degree of Press scrutiny and skepticism.

    CAJim said this on June 12, 2011 at 8:28 AM

    CAJim – they already have the “apologist attorney” guy waiting in the wings – Rodney Parker.

  323. Boots has obtained the 2005 bankruptcy filing of Meri and Kody Brown…. apparently they lied on their bankruptcy application, misrepresenting the number of children Kody had…..One wonders why law enforcement has taken no action
    See the document here –

  324. More good stuff, this article is a cupla weeks old but has tons of new info

    Wynn Las Vegas reported to the FTC that between June 17, 2006, and Jan. 21, 2011, Johnson lost $1.35 million gambling there, the FTC has disclosed in court papers.

    An FTC investigator reported that between April and October of last year, Johnson lost another $1.536 million playing on the Full Tilt Poker site”

  325. Stamp posted a story about the Utah businessman who appeared in the “Sons of Perdition” movie, well he has been arrested on federal charges, appears he fled to Costa Rica with his wife & children. He made the mistake of flying where he would have to change planes at a US airport and was arrested on federal charges.

    Appears his attempt to flee the US failed.

  326. A Texan, it is ironic that Jeremy Johnson is a pilot and owned a couple of airplanes and helicopters – that is until the Federal Trade Commission charged him last December for stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from tens of thousands of people. Then the FTC had Jeremy’s planes and copters taken away and put into receivership.

    If only Jeremy still had one of those planes or copters he could have flown himself nonstop to Costa Rica and he wouldn’t have had to change planes in Phoenix. Poor schmuck.

    From the Deseret News article Stamp linked to it says at the bottom:
    A federal judge in Nevada froze Johnson’s assets and appointed a receiver to manage them pending the outcome of the FTC case. According to the new criminal charge, he has “substantial resources” in other countries including real estate in Belize and the Philippines.

    But in a recent filing in the FTC case, government attorneys say Johnson hasn’t been candid about his assets and question how he apparently continues to live the high life. He asked the receiver for permission to use a million-dollar houseboat over the recent Memorial Day weekend.

    “How can Johnson and his family have funds to travel to Lake Powell, expend the funds necessary to use their luxurious houseboat for a weekend getaway, and then return to Costa Rica or St. George, when all of their non-receivership assets have purportedly been ‘depleted?’ ”

    It looks like Jeremy has some ‘splaining to do.

  327. Anonymous no, I don’t think Rodney Parker is going to be the FLDS apologist during Warren’s trial. He got kinda used up at the YFZ Raunch Press Corp interviews when he insisted that underage marriages and ‘Child Bride’ scenario(s) never happened. After now seven guilty verdicts, Rodney would find it hard to say anything that the Press wouldn’t immediately question. He could give it another try though, didn’t last very long or fool anybody the last time but heah he can still bill’em for his hours, right? The whole UEP Trust efforts by Rod’s law firm has really produced much either, so I wouyld think that a new face would be more likely.

  328. Wonder who will show up at Warren’s hearing on Thursday.

  329. I expect Warren will, guess gosanangelo will have another perpwalk pic

  330. Thanks to the person known as Boots for posting USCD bankruptcy court info. I didn’t know (did you?) that Christine Ruth Brown was an Allred. I assume we’re cousins, I thought I was only related to Robyn. If anybody can help me with who Christine’s parents are, it will assist the family tree.

    You guys know how I feel about polygamy despite my family connections, and I’ve always felt honest support from you people, but doesn’t anyone believe that the Brown family is a happy one? I just don’t believe it’s all for show. Still not okay, but what do you guys think about what they portray in terms of the “happy plyg family”?

  331. Hey, Betty, hope all is well, I’m sure it’s a phase, and we all have them :).

  332. By the way, I am reading the BOM for the first time as an adult. Just a couple chapters per night. I think I should know what it says, this book that charmed and disarmed my ancestors, who, for the record, were apparently not at all idiots.

  333. TC

    On the question if the Browns are “happy” or not, well its probably true they have had a lot of happy times, but its no secret that holding this all together is tough mentally, physically and financially.

    Plus, by not sharing with TLC what their religion is, it smacks of a sham, its pretty rare for someone who really believes in their religion to hide it.

    While it appears there is no child molesting like the FLDS, we dont know, and we dont know if that happens in the group they are affiliated with, as the revelation would ruin the show.

    Soooo, I for one, stand unconvinced they are really “happy” in the long run and it seems the lifestyle is apparently hard or impossible to financially maintain without OPM.

  334. “but doesn’t anyone believe that the Brown family is a happy one? I just don’t believe it’s all for show. ”

    I know someone who actually knows the family. Her comment was that you had to “read between the lines.” Wife #1 and Wife #2 do not get along, they tolerate each other. Wife # 3 has admitted that she was uncomfortable with Wife # 4 publicly. The daughter of wife #1 has publicly stated to the press that she will never enter into a polygamous marriage. Wife #1 states that her polygamous marriage has “broken her heart” to the Huffington Post. They sublimate these feelings quite well for the camera, but who knows what goes on when the cameras stop rolling. One thing is for certain, they are involved in a good deal of financial chicanery to support their lifestyle.

  335. Doesn’t seem like the diary of someone delighted with their polygamous lifestyle :

  336. OK

    Not happy. At least after the honeymoon.

  337. By the way, I am reading the BOM for the first time as an adult. Just a couple chapters per night. I think I should know what it says, this book that charmed and disarmed my ancestors, who, for the record, were apparently not at all idiots.

    Third Cousin said this on June 13, 2011 at 1:27 AM

    Yes, the BOM is available online for those who want to check it out:

    Checked out the upper level leadership of LDS church, appears all are university graduates, many with post graduate degrees, including one from New Jersey, one from Germany, including lawyers, airline pilot etc.

    Click on the photos of these top LDS leaders to read bios.

    Also read the bios of the these top LDS leaders:

    The poster chemist who is LDS IMO is not an idiot.

    It should be noted anyone can twist a religous text, example David Koresh, who created a FLDS like cult, not based on BOM, but the Bible.

  338. If Mr. Brown doesn’t offer them righteous exaltation then all he really has to offer is 1/4 husband and that seems to be that all of these women sold themselves into a fairly personally degrading situation. Got milk?

  339. Yeah, I think Warren’s a given, but I was wondering about sheeple.

  340. I don’t really care if the Browns are happy or not. The reality is that they are breaking the laws of the United States and flaunting it on TV. They should be prosecuted just like anyone else who breaks the law. I feel the same way about Richard Jessop, who announced on the Oprah show that he had 3 wives. He should also be prosecuted and his interview with Oprah is all the proof they need. They don’t even need any documents from the YFZ, except to give extra proof.

    Imagine that a crackhead was on TV with a show about making crack. He’d be arrested in a heartbeat.

  341. They all seem obviously unhappy except for the husband and the new wife. That’s not really news.

    Birth Date: 12/13/82
    Address : 865 N CANYON ST BOX 840902, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    23:30:00 06/10/11 Other Agency COLO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-6A-502 DUI-1st,2nd OFFENSE BM MOJP 0.00 [No Payments Made]

    Birth Date: 05/04/89
    Address : 2013 S WESTCLIFF DR, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    20:27:48 06/10/11 Stevenson, Bett WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  344. What troubles me is that the Brown family seems to think that they can file repeatedly for bankruptcy and accept government assistance (food stamps) to support their lifestyle. They cannot afford their current lifestyle, which includes 4 homes, multiple cars, 16 children (soon to be 17, Robyn is pregnant), and 4 unemployed wives. Someone is clearly bankrolling them, and I suspect that it is not just TLC….

  345. Obviously the government is supporting them.

  346. I think quite possibly that they are being provided with cash assistance / cars / homes by groups or individuals who want to see polygamy decriminalized if not legalized.

  347. I thot they were already being investigated for violation of polygamy laws and some other stuff. I thot I read an article online, when the show stated, talking about it. And Kody welcomed it, trying to force the polygamy issue…again…into the US courts. I’ll have to look it up when I get home, in a few days. Tooo hard to do on this Kindle.
    Headed southbound in the North Sea. Eventually to Amsterdam and then, sadly, home and reality.

  348. “SALT LAKE CITY — The court-apppointed accountant for a land trust once run by jailed polygamous leader Warren Jeffs wants Utah taxpayers to pay $4.6 million in debt incurred for trust management.”–Polygamy-Trust/

  349. Proud Texan and Born In Brooklyn- you are both right. Boots needs to dig back further on the home issues. TLC producer was sitting in at the last Safety net meeting. (available on the net)

    People filing bankruptcy and applying for food stamps is not illegal. Lying about the info on them is imo considered fraud.

    Big lotto winner in Wisconsin or Minn. won millions and still collecting food stamps. Glich in the system they say.

    1. Did the girls all change their name legally to Brown?
    2. More on Merri and her job
    3. Dig a little bit more on Janelle and her mama’s background
    4. Who was the lawyer that helped with the bankruptcy/bankruptcies? and is he related to the stories in a round about way? (or related to some of the players of those who are pushing the decriminalizaton of Polygamy)
    5. And how is Kody Brown father doing with his ranching? The way they had it on tv the poor fellow was in tough shape) (not so)

    What other polygamist group has strong ties in Nevada that might have housing available? Think it was by chance that they found the perfect realtor?

    Is Kody really the hubby to 4? or is the hubby to one and a brother to?

    As with everything concerning polygamy- this whole thing has been a scam from get go. It burns my arse that they are making it look like following the laws is a bad thing. That the rest of the Country is F’d up because “we don’t understand”- aren’t accepting of different lifestyles.

    I don’t like being lied to. I don’t like it that this is paving a ground for others who will lie/cheat and take advantage of others. I don’t like kids being used as pawns to gain sympathy . CPark is known to throw the kids out in the public eye. jmo

  350. Walton –

    I will forward your questions to Boots for further investigation. No, applying for food stamps is not illegal, nor is applying for bankruptcy – unless you lie on the applications, which Christine did. The entire family was being compensated by TLC while Christine continued to collect food stamps in 2009 – 2010. She filed for bankruptcy while the Brown Entertainment Group was on the payroll of TLC. On the bankruptcy filing forms of March 2010 she acknowledges that her rent was paid by a mysterious unnamed individual whom she described as her “companion.” I think we all know who that is ….the President of the “Brown Entertainment Group.”

  351. Some of you know I have tried to use my voice for another group of people who have a high rate of suicide amongst their teens and abuse in every form concerning women, children and the elderly. Bad. Really bad.

    For years I and many others have been asking for help. In one months time I’ve read the obits for 4 teens and now the murder of two young children. Aged 6 and 9. They were found between the mattress and the box spring. They hauled the father off and charged him with Drunk and disorderly and are “still investigating” the deaths of these two kids. This all happened in one small secluded little town.

    It hit me hard. Really hard. I thought I should have done more. I saw it all coming. And I just couldn’t and can’t stop some of this craziness. I’ve made the phone calls, I’ve continued to try and bring awareness to the situation.

    I know this situation is different than the stories about the abuses of Polygamy. But with both situations I know in my gut that there is just no reason why this should continue. No reason ever that people should be abused in any way. NONE.

    I still feel like I should have done more. Maybe… just maybe those two little ones would have had a chance to beat the odds.

    So… my voice will be louder. My persistence stronger. I don’t have any big degree that I can use to help- but I have common sense and a big mouth.


    Eligibility for food stamps is based on gross income and follows federal guidelines; lottery winnings are considered liquid assets and don’t count as income. As long as Fick’s gross income stays below the eligibility requirement for food stamps, he can receive them, even if he has a million dollars in the bank.

    Food stamps are paid for through tax dollars and are meant to help support low-income families.

    “If you’re going to try to make me feel bad, you’re not going to do it,” Fick told WNEM-TV in Saginaw on Monday.

    I can actually see “Christine” saying…. Bring it on. 😦

    Thanks for sending those questions to Boots. she is a go getter. I know that there is still so much more to these stories than we might ever know. But those involved don’t understand that there are many of us “out here” that don’t know what else to do but to keep asking questions and pushing for results. At just about every angle they’ve made it impossible to know where to go to ask for help for any reason.

    It’s all been bigger than many know. So many agencies involved and not a clear picture of which can be trusted imo. 😦

  353. “SAN ANGELO, Texas — Attorneys for polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs are requesting in a hearing at the Tom Green Courthouse this morning that District Judge Barbara Walther be recused as judge in Jeffs’ upcoming trial.

    John Hyde is presiding.

    Jeffs, leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is scheduled to be tried on charges of sexual assault of a child and bigamy in July.
    This is a developing story. More information will be reported as it becomes available ”

    Start the legal fun and games… with more to come.

  354. RE the Browns:

    I read the purported page from Janelle’s diary, and really wasn’t moved either way. But I am curious that I saw no proof that the words were actually hers or how the document was obtained. I can’t give it any credibility.

    It is my understanding that the Browns live an AUB sect, and that they were asked by their local leadership not to discuss it on television (I think they actually asked them not to do the show at all). I think the AUB is large and diverse with many geographical locations.

    It really is shocking that all those bankruptcies have been filed and that some receive food stamps.

    I agree with PT that they break the law and have to answer for it, especially now that they are glorifying their lifestyle on TV. But on a human level, the question of whether it truly is a happy family is not irrelevant to me.

  355. The Browns went on a television program to try to sway public opinion towards legalizing polygamy (and also make money). They had an objective and therefore, I don’t think we can trust what they portray on television. My gut tells me things are not all-happy in the household.

    However, if you want to take the stance that they are happy, how would the picture change if they weren’t using OPM to fund their life. If they were totally personally financially responsible for themselves, would they be happy or would they flounder?

  356. Kingston had/has money. He, I am sure claims he is happy. Does it make it right?

    Arguments sure to surface is that those that break the law should be prosecuted and not ALL those practicing polygamy are breaking other laws blah blah blah.

    When you have to lie/cheat/ break other commandments from a religious book (any religious book) to make excuses for breaking any law imo is wrong. Practicing polygamists are a selfish group. Care little for their loved ones and even less for the rest of society.

    Allreds have money. Does it make it ok? When they had to lie/decieve/steal to make their “Church’ bigger. Gather up more land and the little bees on the end struggle to feed their families.

    So living it out in the open would be better? For 100 plus years they’ve been living it this way. How about if they tried it all the legal way for 50 years and then have this conversation.

    God didn’t tell them they had to replenish the earth in a day and he surely never intended for 5-12 men to do it. God has been doing just fine without these folks at his side. What makes them think that God needs their help in the Heavens. That shows me they have less faith in God and tooo much ego on earth. jmo

    I’ve never seen so many religious people show such a lack of respect and Faith in God as I have most of these folks concerning Polygamy. Maybe if they had more Faith in God and less in their man-made Church none of us would be here discussing how to better treat each other.

    The more I see/read this is more about the Almighty dollar and the pinstriped suits of crooked lawyers and politicans. Greed run by greed.

    They say they can’t help those that won’t help themselves. Even the people in those sweatshops were bummed when the factories were shut down. They were fearful for not having a job. didn’t know any better. Thought it was ok to live in filth and work their people to death. The laws should protect all of us. Especially those that just don’ t know any better or won’t or can’t speak up. jmo

  357. I can’t edit. The above post is from me. Walton

  358. well of course they are asking for Judge Walther’s recusal. Jeffs has a pretrial hearing tomorrow.

    delay, delay, delay.

    hi walton

  359. 🙂 Juliekan (if you see Texski anyplace tell her I say hello)

  360. Yep, delay is the name of the game with the FLDS. At this rate Lyle better put out another call for $2,000 extra special tithes. Word is that Warren now has 4 attorneys on the case.

  361. Boots has obtained the documents from the 2005 Bankruptcy Filing of Kody and Meri Brown. In this document, he reports that he has only one spouse and that he has only 7 children (he actually had over 10 children by three different “wives” by that time)

  362. Notice in the 2005 document above that Kody Brown reported that he had less than 2000 dollars in his retirement account. Interestingly when the press inquired recently about how Kody supported his family Wife # 4 Robyn responded that they were “living off his retirement account money”
    If they are truly “living off his retirement account funds” it doesn’t seem to me that there would be enough there by now to support that many people. More lies. Someone bigger than the government is supplying them with cash, and it isn’t just TLC.

  363. Someone bigger than the government is supplying them with cash, and it isn’t just TLC.

    Your right. This is one of those dot dot dot things.

  364. re: Browns – I thought it pretty sick that they were so excited about yet another kid on the way given how many they aready have. Now to see they just take turns going bankrupt to pay for them is really sick. Each can only go bankrupt every 7 years so I guess they now can get Robyn to put her name on everything so she can be the next to declare it. Didn’t TLC vet these people??

  365. above came from Watergirl. Can’t figure out what happended to my login.

  366. Anyone else notice that Utah is trying to make Mr. Wisan pay for his expenses out of his own pocket?

  367. It should also be noted that the Brown family home in Lehi, Utah has not been sold yet, and that the owners of the home as listed on the deed have changed several times …. see here –

    I suspect that the 4 homes the Browns now occupy in Las Vegas were purchased for them … the question is by whom ?

  368. I find it interesting that the former owners of the Lehi residence are surnamed Jessop and Ray, both two well known fundamentalist surnames, especially with the AUB.

  369. I think quite possibly that they are being provided with cash assistance / cars / homes by groups or individuals who want to see polygamy decriminalized if not legalized.

    Born In Brooklyn said this on June 13, 2011 at 9:09 AM

    BIB, that is very possible. Principle Voices of Polygamy (Anne Wilde and Mary Batchelor) had a “fundraiser” a while back. Of course any donations wouldn’t be tax deductible since that is not a nonprofit charity. I wonder what they did with the “donated fundraising” proceeds?

  370. mc1199 said: I thot I read an article online, when the show stated, talking about it. And Kody welcomed it, trying to force the polygamy issue…again…into the US courts.

    mc1199 I think you are referring to an interview wife #3 Christine made (maybe with Ben Winslow of Fox News?) saying “bring it on”.

    Be careful what you wish for, Christine

  371. Welcome back Alin. Just couldn’t stay away, could you.

    As for Wisan, he’s trying to get Utah to pay the legal bills the trust has incurred since the State took it over. Lawyers want their money.

  372. Does anyone else find it interesting that Willie wasn’t called to testify by Warren’s attorneys? Guess Warren’s probably afraid of what Thugly might say.

  373. So Janelle still has a house with her supposedly exhusband Adam? (Merri’s brother)?

    And her name was also on the one with Kody and Co.?

    And Christines home/homes?

    I wonder how many (in house) lawyers are involved?

  374. Adam isn’t Merril’s brother, he’s a relative of some type.

  375. I think he’s talking about Meri Barber’s brother Adam, not Merril’s brother.

  376. The names ‘Michael’ and ‘Adam’ are not names FLDS give their offspring. It would be like taking the Lord’s name in vain.

  377. Fascinating, ad hoc. On account of Adam being God?

  378. What is Meri Brown’s maiden name ? Barber ?

  379. Yes, TC… but I could be wrong. What I said is probably old-school. Someone told me that years ago. I’m not sure what WSJ’s new-age religion allows now.

  380. So Janelle still has a house with her supposedly exhusband Adam? (Merri’s brother)?

    No, Janelle still owns the home in Lehi, Utah, but she has added Kody and Meri’s names to the deed. The house in Lehi is not even up for sale. Each wife now has a home in Las Vegas, and someone is attempting to find out who actually owns the homes in Las Vegas…. maybe TLC owns or leases those homes….stay tuned…

  381. Yes, Meri is a Barber. The Barbers are wrapped up with the Zittings somehow.

    I am suspecting now that Christine Ruth Allred Brown is the granddaughter of Dr. Rulon Clark Allred through Rulon’s son Rex Clark Allred, who it looks like was married to a LeBaron, probably a daughter of Ervil and Verlan’s brother Floren. If anybody can confirm, save me the suspense.

  382. You guys are right. Janelle was supposedly married to Meri’s brother Adam Barber.

    Same last name as the the person who first investigated them in Lehi. I thought the Barbers were connected to the Kunz? Kelz? something like that.

    And if the documents that were shown about the bankruptcies are correct the lawyer signing them was/is somehow connected to MaryB. (Oddly enough the same lawyer that was/is counseling them concerning the Sister Wives show and any charges that were being talked about) >>> rolling eyes icon here>>>

    After I pointed that fact out on another board it wasn’t long after that they got Turley. (Pro active Polygamy guy who if memory serves me right had something to do with the GREEN story) ( Also involved was the same lawyer whose name you see on those papers)

    What is also interesting is the list of Tom Greens wives and their family members. Lots of digging but you might find it all VERY interesting.

    Now if you look back… see who was all involved in the whole Sister Wife scam. Who held the last meeting with a TLC producer sitting at the head table? Safety Net Committee. (not sure if any federal dollars are being used and I’ve yet to see any details as to how those monies have been spent.) Right next to the producer sat Paul Murphy.

    Paul Murphy spoke a little about the book burning. I don’t know who he was talking to as it didn’t show him. But 3rd Cousin you might know.

    It isn’t fair. It isn’t fair to those that live there. It isn’t fair to those kids. Adults using kids for gain.

  383. Seems to me like the lawyer participated in a fraudulent bankruptcy filing …. he signed a document where Kody misrepresented the number of children he had… Sounds like professional misconduct on the part of an attorney.

  384. The Browns cannot possibly own those four homes in Las Vegas. They don’t have sufficient credit to qualify for a mortgage for even one home after multiple bankruptcy filings. TLC must have purchased those homes for them, or rented them, or some polygamy group paid for those homes.

  385. Start at post #186 ( the whole board is interesting)
    Robyn’s ex husband is a cousin to Christine

    details on the Allred family tree (Christine is Kody’s sister)

    Wynn Brownn connection (Kody’s dad) (Kody’s mother Genille was a Tew)–Merrill-B-Tew.html

    Janelle is supposedly Kody’s step sister but I wouldn’t doubt if she was a cousin

    The only one that Ive seen and haven’t seen concerning this show that has any working brain cells is Wynn Brown. And he can be seen on a video during a REAL cattle round up via the net if you look hard enough.

    Says a lot about any type of background check TLC , Lehi Police Department, Utah Attorney General does and to what length they would allow BS to go on.

    What a bunch of BS. What a waste. imo the background of these people hold such a strong history and if there ever was a story to tell TLC should touch Polygamy with the reality concerning their history.

    And keep in mind how many times they all said they loved each other/ how much better they were than those in the FLDS .

    Just keep in mind all the players behind this mess. Shurtleff, Safety Net, Paul Murphy, Lehi police Department, TLC, Principal Voices, Mary B. Anne Wilde, J. Turley, the lawyers that were on tv and in the news, the reporters that investigated and said nothing, the list goes on.

  386. Crazy Montana man from Missoula has shoot out with cops, is on the run, man hunt has commenced

  387. The nuts fall from those trees in Montana a lot. Not just a few but a lot.

  388. Thanks for the genealogy help, Walton, I did not know Kody’s mother’s surname.

    For everyone, careful with the allred roster – a great resource but always triple check because it is not infallible. It’s just a great springboard.

    As for Janelle, don’t worry how often a cousin can also be a stepsister.

  389. I agree, Belle de Jour, about the credit thing. Also, with the current mortgage situation, nobody is making 100% mortgages any more, so you would have to have 10-20% on each of them which is a lot of coin, even for someone working for TLC.

  390. I meant to say “don’t forget” how often a cousin can also be a stepsister. I’m brain dead this morning.

  391. Book Expo America interview with Sam Brower on his new book “Prophet’s Prey”

  392. “As a white Mormon, I proudly accepted the teaching that my fair skin and Mormon parentage signified that I had been one of God’s most intelligent and obedient born-in-heaven spirit children…. As a reward for my superior attributes and attitudes, I had been singled out, trained, and qualified to be born a white Latter-day Saint, deserving of emulation, adulation, and eventual deification. All dark-skinned people, even darker-complexioned Caucasians… had been inferior spirits in heaven.”
    ~ Thelma Geer, Mormonism, Mama & Me, 1986, pp. 24-25

  393. Hilarious Merry B, seems like this ‘mighty whitey’ belief sect has a delightsome attitude. Seems today’s news says Bruce Wisan is expecting some payments since his accounting work is since 2008 and Judge Walthers is pressing for the trial date to be afformed (dang those pesky Gentiles).

  394. Does anyone have an update on the 18 wheeler accident last July concerning the load of 25 rolls of 700pound cheese wheels scattered across the I-90 Highway, just east of Sioux Falls, SD by Ronald Scott Jessop of Washington, UT?

    Can anyone help to identify Ronald’s parents, he’s about 25 years old?

  395. Interesting post on the trib

    “Una Dagger:

    “Black Mormon defends priesthood ban on anniversary of historic change | Following Faith

    | The Salt Lake Tribune 06/13/11 12:45 PM post

    Uh, it is true. The fact that you don’t want it to be true hardly changes the reality of the situation.

    We Mormons only ended Polygamy when forced to do so, and we only ended the prohibition against Blacks in the Priesthood with forced to do so. We’ll fight against equal rights for Gays until forced to do otherwise.

    There has never been a Civil Rights issue that we didn’t fight tooth and nail.

    That’s just a fact.””

  396. Argh!!

    Des News, really?

  397. Anon, if you read the whole article, it’s mostly pro-monogamy.


  399. Warrens attmpt to recuse Walther failed, thanks for the link ad hoc!

    Guess rolling your eyes isnt the same crime in Texas as it is in Shortcreek?

  400. Where is Jeffs’ case concerning release of his “Bad Acts” and possible witness list? Hopefully, the stalling and footdragging will cease and some real progress will begin towards firming up this July trial.

  401. Sandy Barlow is currenty hospitalized with blood clots. Sandy is (former) wife of Alma Barlow, he who is part of the now infamous “Barlow Brother Cabel”.

    She is a former 2nd grade school teacher of Colorado City. Her maiden name is Meldrum (spelling?) and is from a convert family I believe. Also belived to be about 74 yrs old.

    Here’s looking at you Third Cousin, and any others…..I need more information on this lady for family tree purposes…

    any tidbit will be helpful.

  402. MB: As a long time LDS member I have never heard such claptrap as that you quoted from Thelma Geer. And I am very thankful I have never heard such racist grabage from the LDS people I have associated with in the midwest.

  403. Well, I for one havent seen that attitude expressed elsewhere by regular LDS folks I have met – of interesting note, is that in the early 90’s lots of LDS went overboard with end times and survivalist mentality, there were a lot exed over it as I recall reading.

    So what I am saying, is sometimes people pick up their own ball and run with it.

  404. Stamp: Thank you for your comment. The LDS church is a lay church and some lay teachers and local leaders may voice their speculations which other people may accept as being official church doctrine. Also, different people can have different experiences and even different perceptrions of the same experience.

  405. BREAKING – updated report

    Warren ordered to trial July 25, amongst wailing and gnashing of teeth amongst his gang of attorneys.

  406. Chemist

    No problem – I know quite a few LDS, and count many as friends including you…

    I will have to say, as a group, the LDS are the least outspoken about race of any demographic I can think of.

  407. Stamp, you forgot the ‘weeping’ that usually comes before ‘wailing and gnashing of teeth.’ lol

  408. Oh, yeah that too!

    And think of the overtime Warren will be billed as they hire Sarah Palins email readers to switch over to all of Warrens crap.

    700 bad acts, you cant make this stuff up!

  409. If Swarmi over on sltrib reads this blog I just want to tell you that I appreciate you. There are lots of things in this world that kinda get me down. But your dogged fight against the abuses of polygamy and your humor make me feel good. Thanks!

  410. Robert Kirby is a columnist at the Salt Lake Tribune. He is a practicing member of the LDS Church. In 2007 he wrote a great article titled : Facing the Truth about Mountain Meadows google his name and you should be able to see the article.

    I won’t even clip a portion of it as the whole article needs to be read to appreciate where he was coming from and where he was going with the article.

    I am sure it would be a rare occasion to hear some one from the LDS Church talk negativly about any racial issues. However, sometimes the actions speak louder than words.

    Chemist as you know both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had issues with people whose skin color was darker than theirs. Things have improved somewhat but the base is still there. And some of those actions/reactions can still be seen and felt today.

    While the LDS speak of their Sacred Grounds, the FLDS speak of their Sacred Grounds/rocks/cows etc. the respect shown to the Native Americans have been less than respectful. imo

    Not by all. By many.

  411. The Bad Acts is 108 pages long.

  412. 3C, I have Sandy Barlow as Sandra Adaire Meldrum, daughter of William Howard Meldrum and Dorothea Jane Pratt. I have her having a brother named William Howard Jr. and being born in 1937.

  413. Oops sorry, the Sandy Barlow info should have said Ariel, not 3C.

  414. rnr RICO reminds me of that Ice Age – Dawn of the Dinosaurs character, named ‘BUCK’ he’s too wily to get caught and covers more terrain kinda effortlessly.

  415. Is the list of bad acts public? If so, where can we see them?

  416. So… my voice will be louder. My persistence stronger. I don’t have any big degree that I can use to help- but I have common sense and a big mouth.

    Walton said this on June 13, 2011 at 10:37 AM

    You go Walton! Make tons of noise – it does get heard.

  417. Ray Jessop is Ronalds father.

  418. Who is Ronald?

  419. It is my understanding that the bad acts, witness list and exhibit list haven’t been filed with the clerk yet, merely tendered to the other side informally.

  420. I saw the photo on the San Angelo Standard-Times web site of Warren attending his hearing today. I was so bummed that he wasn’t his usual stylish self wearing his prison-issued orange scrubs with his matching orange sneakers.

    He had on black flats/clogs.

    How tacky. Warren, when you go to court in the big city, you need to wear an “outfit” and dress right for the occasion. Keep that in mind; it impresses the jury.

  421. Ronald the I-90 South Dakota cheese spill guy from Washington Co. UT.

  422. How tacky. Warren, when you go to court in the big city, you need to wear an “outfit” and dress right for the occasion. Keep that in mind; it impresses the jury.

    Anonymous said this on June 14, 2011 at 11:44 PM

    Warren is not allowed to “dress right for the occasion” until he attends the trial.

  423. Now if you look back… see who was all involved in the whole Sister Wife scam. Who held the last meeting with a TLC producer sitting at the head table? Safety Net Committee. (not sure if any federal dollars are being used and I’ve yet to see any details as to how those monies have been spent.) Right next to the producer sat Paul Murphy.

    Paul Murphy spoke a little about the book burning. I don’t know who he was talking to as it didn’t show him. But 3rd Cousin you might know.

    It isn’t fair. It isn’t fair to those that live there. It isn’t fair to those kids. Adults using kids for gain.

    Walton said this on June 13, 2011 at 11:31 PM

    What you just said is very interesting Walton. The Safety Net Committee is funded by the Utah Legislature. Although there is no actual money to help victims of polygamy (other than offering counseling by 2 social workers) the State of Utah has appropriated hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund the Safety Net Committee.

    Much of this money is used to educate social service providers so they will know how to treat the polygamists with respect. I think some of this money was even used to send representatives to Texas after the 2008 YFZ ranch raid so that they could teach the Texans how to treat the polygamists with kindness and respect. I think Mary Batchelor with Principle Voices of Polygamy accompanied the Safety Net Committee representatives on this Texas “polygamy ambassador” mission.

    The head of this committee recently said she couldn’t run the committee and do the necessary counseling at the same time. So, they decided to spend more Utah taxpayers’ dollars and hire a new administrative head of the Safety Net Committee and pay a 3rd salary (in addition to the 2 social worker counselors).

    I was also told that one of the social workers called the HOPE org the Monday after the Safety Net meeting (mentioned above) where the library book burning was discussed and asked “what can we do?” about the burned and stolen library books.

    How thoughtful!

  424. Says a lot about any type of background check TLC , Lehi Police Department, Utah Attorney General does and to what length they would allow BS to go on.

    What a bunch of BS. What a waste. imo the background of these people hold such a strong history and if there ever was a story to tell TLC should touch Polygamy with the reality concerning their history.

    And keep in mind how many times they all said they loved each other/ how much better they were than those in the FLDS .

    Just keep in mind all the players behind this mess. Shurtleff, Safety Net, Paul Murphy, Lehi police Department, TLC, Principal Voices, Mary B. Anne Wilde, J. Turley, the lawyers that were on tv and in the news, the reporters that investigated and said nothing, the list goes on.

    Walton said this on June 14, 2011 at 7:07 AM

    WOW, you’re the GREATEST Walton! You call it as you see it and it so spot on! Keep that loud voice posting. You bring such truth and reality to the BS and someone with the power to actually care and DO something will eventually hear what you’re saying.

    Go Walton!

  425. Merry Blasphemer, I always enjoy you posts. They are so “delightsome”.

  426. There has never been a Civil Rights issue that we [Mormons] didn’t fight tooth and nail.

    That’s just a fact.””

    Anon said this on June 14, 2011 at 11:09 AM

    Yep, you have that right. Just think back 30 years ago regarding the Equal Rights Amendment for women that the Mormons got shot down by a narrow vote because they rallied their forces. And the more recent Proposition 8 in California because they also rallied their forces.

    With Jon Huntsman and Mitt Romney both throwing their hats in the ring for the US Presidential race, we could be in deep caca.

  427. From the San Angelo article – “more than 700 alleged bad acts to contend with” – oops, Warren, you’ve been a really bad boy,


  428. Ariel I know of a Howard Meldrum still in the Work. I don’t know his genealogy though, but he is/was (depending on Warren’s mood) in the Priesthoodlemness. I would guess he is in his 60’s.

  429. Proud T, yesterday I inquired here for any update on Ronald Scott Jessop’s status since his 18-wheeler accident last year on the I-90 west of Sioux Falls in early July. He was arrested and jailed because he appeared to have fallen asleep in his 2005 Wentworth rig and hit another SUV that was pulling it’s own trailer. Ronald ‘s load was about 25 giant 700lb. cheese wheels that were dumped out on the roadway median. Ronald had an expired commercial driver’s license and an outstanding warrant for a failure to appear. Last August, after he made bail, the Court issued a second warrant when he, again, failed to appear. I am interested to know if Ronald was working for a major dairy cheese operation or a trucking firm, either of whom are likely a FLDS contractor/owner.

    Thanks for the info that he’s Ray’s boy but his status is still not current.

  430. Warren is not allowed to “dress right for the occasion” until he attends the trial.

    Anonymous said this on June 15, 2011 at 12:18 AM

    Warren can’t even choose now between his matching orange sneakers or his black flats? Too bad, so sad.

  431. the respect shown to the Native Americans have been less than respectful. imo

    Not by all. By many.

    Walton said this on June 14, 2011 at 9:57 PM

    Walton, I personally experienced the disrespect for the Paiute Native Americans a couple of weeks ago. I was on a tour (about 25 local Southern Utah people) and the LDS tour guides kept calling them the Indians. There was a Paiute from the Shivwits Reservation there. He cringed, I cringed and one other in the tour group cringed.

    That negative reference to the Native Americans went on the entire day. Only the Paiute and the other 2 non-LDS of us in the tour seemed troubled by the derogatory term.

    You are right, that lack of respect still continues today.

  432. New article on back taxes owed at Short Creek:

    Also where did the SLT article on denial of request to remove Walther go? It was there yesterday morning and is now gone?

  433. The “Sister Wives” Series seems to give the impression that Kody Brown bought 4 houses for his 4 wives. It has now been revealed that the homes are rented for the family – either by TLC or by Kody, or by someone else ….

  434. Now that the abusers have finally started paying the piper, its gotten a lot funnier!

    You cant make this stuff up!

    Even Big Love couldnt touch the craziness these guys come up with….

  435. HHG: Thanks for the link to the article on the Short Creek taxes. The flds may end up cutting oiff their nose to spite their face in their non payment of taxes to protest Wisans as the State Ordained Bishop.

  436. I don’t believe that Kody would be able to pass a credit check to qualify as a renter on his own after his bankruptcy. TLC is no doubt footing the bill for the rent, which is estimated to be about 1500 dollars / month per home.

  437. Chemist the recorded statements about Short Creek no longer being the ‘Gathering Place”, made by Prophet Jeffs still begs the question of what is the truer agenda of the FLDS Church after this revelation? If the ‘…flock is to be scattered’ and the new revelation is to go to the ;Lands of Refuge’, then the future fate of the Short Creek communities has already been sealed. The trickery part for Jeffs right now is leading his flock from jail and the call to scatter is still not completed. Warren’s lead away from Utah and into Texas, Nevada, So. Dakota, Colorado and BC, Canada will take years longer to achieve and his trial begins next month.

  438. Perpwalk photo of Warren wearin his gators and getting *yet another* law enforcement escort,

  439. CAJim, do you have a reference you can share? When / where are the “recorded statements about Short Creek no longer being the ‘Gathering Place’. ” Maybe in the dictations?

  440. The article on the taxes isnt correct. Utah and Arizona both sell delinquent properties at public auction.

    There are different rules on how that works, but they WILL be sold unless they are brought current.

    Who to pay, the taxman or the attorneys?

    Those FLDS have so many alligators eating them alive they might as well move to the swamp.

  441. Please continue on General Discussion #57

    Thanks – Admin

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