General Discussion #54

Continued from General Discussion #53

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on April 26, 2011.

457 Responses to “General Discussion #54”

  1. From TC on last thread:

    On 04/20/2011 Texas United States District Court Judge Sim Lake granted another uncontested continuance in the murder trial of Jacqueline Tarsa LeBaron. The new date is 05/31/2011 at 1:00pm. She is the daughter of Ervil Morrell LeBaron and Lorna Gay Chynoweth.

  2. 3C, It doesn’t surprise me that it is continued.

  3. How long is it that this case has been continued ? Wasn’t she arrested and charged last year ?

  4. The original trial was set for June 2010. She waived Speedy Trial long ago, and we have to admit that trial prep in this case would be a killer on both sides.

  5. TC, Somehow the use of “killer” make your post punny. LOL

  6. Pun intended!

  7. Your post was both punny and phunny !

  8. The bibliography and recommended reading list for “Mormon Polygamy : A Virus of the Mind” has just been released by John Llewellyn :

    http://polygamybooks.org/2011/04/26/virus-of-the-mind-bibliography–suggested-reading.aspx

  9. Anyone know what Tarsa is being charged with?

    Specifically which Fundamentalist Church members is she accused of murdering?

    TIA

  10. Here, Stamp! She helped blood-atone followers of Ervil that left his Lebaron splinter group. The murder victims are Duane and Mark Chynoweth, Jenny Chynoweth, and Eddie Marston. Cousins of mine of course.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,407342,00.html

  11. Stamp, here’s more from the Fifth Circuit re the previously convicted siblings. It summarizes the murder events, but also inquires whether US Code providing for free exercise of religion applies not just freedom to practice one’s religion but freedom to dissociate from it as well.

    http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions%5Cpub%5C93/93-02411.CR0.wpd.pdf

  12. Guess who has been moved from Reagan County

  13. You know, the timing of everything is really fishy. I looked at the documents filed in the Denver Court of Appeals and a couple of things struck me.

    On April 12, Rod Parker sent a letter requesting the UEP documents from Wisan, specifically the lease agreements made. Then on the 14th and 15th Ruth Steed gets called into Lyle’s for a meeting and Lyle doesn’t like her answers so he tells his “brother by another mother” to send Ruth packing, at which time Ruth calls her husband who comes to her aid. Alan, who is squatting on the property himself, calls the local yokle keystone cops to come and arrest said husband for trespass. No aside from the obvious, that Alan wasn’t legally on the property himself, how can Ruth’s husband be cited for trespass when he was called by a person who lives on the property to come to her aid. I think Marshall Roundy and the other idiots who call the CCPD home need to check the laws again and rethink their position.

    Anyway, getting back to the timing. This is all after Benson’s order which specifically says they can’t evict people or move them out, etc. The the stay comes down and low and behold on Saturday, after the Stay is issued, someone breaks into the building where books are stored and carts everything off, burning what they don’t cart off.

    Oh and about the doors, all but 2 doors were recovered. No one is sure where the 2 missing doors are at this point in time. They could have been burned, but no one’s talking.

  14. So, Warren is on a road trip?

    Some other jail wants that long distance money?

    Who knew, Warren is a ring a ling a ding Cash Cow!

    ===========

    Third cousin

    Have you read the letter by William LeBaron? I post it occasionally, here it is. I wonder what her role in the 4 O’clock murders was. Guess we will be finding out!

    =======

    Also, Hi Blackbird!

    ——–

    LeBaron letter – written from Federal Prison

    http://hismin.tripod.com/lebaron.html

  15. LeBaron letter – written from Federal Prison
    http://hismin.tripod.com/lebaron.html

    ———————

    What an amazing testament to Christianity. I notice that he freely admits his guilt and seems to have no bitterness about spending the rest of his life in prison.

    I wish that people would understand that their salvation comes from directly from Christ – it states this clearly in the Bible – not from following the orders of human beings.

  16. I’ve heard that y’all are a pretty good group for outing bulls**t. I just wanted to let you know that Bill Medvecky is over on his blog smearing the ex-FLDS people who won’t take his word for it that there were SANE exams performed on the children. When I asked him for proof, he accused me of deleting posts. Little does the stupid idiot know that I as a poster on his blog could only delete posts I’ve created, not posts of others. He also banned Margaret Cooke. Too bad he was OWNED by a group who called him on his crap. His response is to delete and ban. Well too bad for him, he can’t back up his crap because he just makes it up as he goes along and there is no proof.

  17. LOL

    From MC

    “I am amused at the ability you have Bill to redirect the issue to talk about rape of FLDS children. I have not heard of anyone raping FLDS children except the FLDS themselves.

    Who did this and where can I read documents to show this happened.

    I feel that when you do not know the answers you talk abou things that are so out there it is questional at best. Is excusing behavior of FLDS because non FLDS did the same thing OK.

    Or did they?

    I have no knowledge of any FLDS children being raped.

    Please give me the link or documents to review for myself. I am actually interested in this.”

  18. HAH Bill is such a freaking doofus!

    ———–

    “Bill Medvecky

    When folks start deleting the proof I put up, they go a little too far.

    Ms. Smith can build her own realities someplace else, she ain’t doing it here.

    Margaret, I ban you for trying to use Ruth Cooke.

    You must be awful hard up for validation to be using someone who cannot defend herself from manipulation. Be her “Film lady” someplace else, you AIN”T doing it here.

    46 minutes ago”

  19. Well the report of ole Warren leaving Reagan County jail is true, The Eldorado Success newspaper is reporting that the felonious profit is now in Sheriff Doran’s graybar hotel. That’s right the Schleicher County Jail in Eldorado, Texas.

    http://www.myeldorado.net/

  20. Bubba Warren J does some travelin’!

  21. Anon e mouse

    Indeed its a great testimony – its just too bad he had to land where he is to figure it out.

    He could have been killed multiple times before his capture, too.

  22. Kathryn Smith –

    Bill is having his discussion with ex FLDS members
    (and he is deleting their posts) on his Facebook page, not on his blog. It is quite entertaining to see the exchange.

  23. Saw that – only FB readers cant delete Bills “Proof Posts” on Bill’s Wall.

    Unless they got magic powers! Maybe they infected his wall with measles?

    No Postmark! Shrinkwrap! GAH!

  24. Thank you A Texan for sharing the news about Warrens latest road trip. Nothing against Reagan County but it just seems right that Deputy George and Doran are keeping an eye on him.

  25. And now Bill has restricted access to his Facebook page boo hoo.

  26. Unless Bill’s Facebook page is infected with the measles that coulda done it.

  27. LOL! It was so funny too!

    Oh well, before you know it, Hugh will pipe up and announce he is starting a Church, and I guess he would then be a quasi – phari~fostle errr sumthin like that!

    These things run in threes, so we’ve got Warren, Bill, and Hugh completing the three ring circus this week!

  28. Nocturnal

    Did you hear the “GAHH!” too?

  29. I missed the GAH where was it ?

  30. Nocturnal

    When Bill was busted, he yelled “GAH My facebook is infected with measles and mind bending posts and Spock deleted my proof!”

    One less sulpher hole contaminating the atmosphere!

  31. Priceless. Sorry I missed it.

  32. Well I did embelish that some. Effect the same though! And ya gotta read all about Hughs fascinating new Church.

    So far, all I really know is that he wants to be a polygamist, he doesnt have a house of worship, and it wont be a Fundamental LDS type sect.

    I think he needs a cupla hundred tithe payers toute suite.

  33. So, if BM made his FB page private, he has what, 1 or 2 posters now? Is our old frenemy duane/Dici still hanging out with the apologist crowd? Thankfully, he isn’t allowed here…his drama got to be a tad much.

  34. I saw a Duane Crawford when I was over there. He wasn’t posting in the thread that I and others were posting in. We were all mainly trying to correct his lies about the FLDS.

    Oh NocAon, I understand that most are ex-FLDS, but a lot of them still have family, some even have family who were at the ranch and know first hand that no sane examination was done on any of the children. It just seems that when that idiot gets something in his head it becomes the gospel and no one or nothing can convince him otherwise.

    He resorted to saying that I deleted posts when he couldn’t produce proof that sane exams occurred or that Carlene had told about her son having a sane exam. The best that I can recall, no such accusation was made by Carlene. The children certainly weren’t sent home with any medical records. At best, if they were treated for anything, the parents can request them from the doctor, hospital or clinic where the child received treatment.

    Anyway, thanks for listening. I’m going back over to the corner where I lurk from. It’s my favorite place.

  35. Come out of the corner, Kathryn – it is a pleasure to meet you.

  36. Lol

  37. So ole deci duaneh is still spteading BS about the flds. Prolly still talks about the near nude rock throwing apostates in short creek. ROFL!! Thankfully he has been banned from this blog.

  38. http://www.facebook.com/#!/bill.medvecky/posts/204450282923101?notif_t=share_reply

  39. more litigation and updates on individual legal problems over land in short creek

    http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20110427/NEWS01/104270333/Venue-changed-in-land-dispute

  40. [Judge John] Walton cited “judicial economy” in seeking to keep litigation related to the UEP trust, property rights and freedom of religion under one judge, as well as a desire to avoid contradicting another state judge.

    “I’m concerned about issuing an order in this court that would be either directly or indirectly contradictory to (3rd District Court) Judge (Denise) Lindberg,” Walton said. “One possible reading (of Lindberg’s ruling) is that all these competing claims should be in one place.”

    http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20110427/NEWS01/104270333/Venue-changed-in-land-dispute

  41. Thanks for summarizing the article ad hoc. I don’t subscribe to the spectrum.

  42. I don’t subscribe to the Spectrum either. I just did a Google search using “Hildale property” – the first link got me to the full article.

  43. Thanks ad hoc !

  44. I enjoy imagining the logistics involved in transporting Warrant AND all of his mail.

  45. @Stamp – I also enjoy imagining the logistics involved in transporting the LeBaron posse over to the Houston USDC in May. I had read Heber’s letter, quite moving. Presumably he will testify against Tarsa.

  46. I have never seen a FB page with so many postings by the Host before. I guess MadeWacky has alot of indoctrinating to do but his supporters seem to still be dwindling and he’s mostly talking with himself. He seems to agree with HughBoy nthat Warren is a false prophet and persecuted. I guess in MadeWacky’s World the convicted FLDS Priesthood men are his Heroes.

  47. I looked at the string from Madwacky’s FB page and a lot of the entries are missing or deleted. Posts that have been deleted are posts from Richter, Smith, and Cooke. Now Mad Bile has closed his Facebook page and his blog has no comments. How will Bile get his “truth” out there ?

  48. Apparently I need a subscription to read the Success online.

    Can anyone elucidate on the reasons behind moving Warren to Schleicher County?

    From what I understand, its a really small jail.

  49. There were no details given, only that he was transferred. A subscription to the Success is a great idea. They cover all the FLDS issues, not only those in Texas.

    PT

  50. Third C

    I would like to think Heber testifies, but you know the rules in prison, it would put a price on his head. Would like to see more of his story come to light. I found that letter one of the most fascinating ever read – almost a summary of an incredible book.

    ——–

    CaJim, Vice,

    Yeah, Bill has been neutered. Funny, he did the snipping himself!

    ——-

    Observing

    Often if you google hot words you can backdoor the Spectrum and read the full article – sometimes not.

    With the Success, you need a subscription.

  51. Here is a backdoor grab of a Spectrum article, comment on if you can read it fully or if it is locked.

    http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20110419/NEWS01/104190329/Man-charged-in-poker-case-is-released

  52. Locked.

  53. But I get it if I just google “man charged in poker case”. But don’t tell the Spectrum.

  54. Thanks TC

    Not all of Gannett’s properties are locked, I checked a few last year and couldnt find another that did that.

    I dont think thats going to be the solution to their financial issues. I know other properties of theirs are struggling too, why they picked this one may have been completely random.

    The deserted snooze laid off half their staff, and I cant remember all the issues and turmoil but I think they are kept afloat by Uncle Joe. Who actually owns it.

  55. Oh and comments at LDS owned KSL have been terminated, and at the Dizzy they are moderated down to just about zero.

  56. And Disqus at the Trib sucks.

  57. I like your moniker Pro Hac Vice!

    pro hac vice
    (proh-hock-vee-chay) Latin meaning “for this one particular occasion.” The phrase usually refers to an out-of-state lawyer who has been granted special permission to participate in a particular case, even though the lawyer is not licensed to practice in the state where the case is being tried

  58. That’s me !

  59. They are still working on it. I’ve emailed the moderaters, one of the bugs is that if you report an offending post you can no longer say why.

    But IMHO it runs reasonably well. Compared to the Desereted snooze, much much better!

  60. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51704934-78/trust-court-state-order.html.csp

    Benson looses!!!

    PT

  61. OK, so I couldn’t spell in my haste to post, it should say

    BENSON LOSES!!!

    PT

  62. Excellent PT! Where’s Fred? Do we have to issue his FU by proxy?

  63. Love the way the leadership manages to bite back its own arse.

  64. Heh! Good on ya, PT.

    So many people get it wrong:

    lose sounds like booze
    loose sounds like goose

    And then our crazy English language confuses us with:

    chose sounds like doze
    choose sounds like booze

    Sorry, couldn’t resist plugging in a little language lesson…
    just to confuse. 😀

  65. Dear Judge Benson,
    You lose.
    FU
    Love, Fred

  66. Fred is my hero.

  67. Third Cousin, maybe, just maybe someday they’ll figure out the high cost of “answer them nothing.”

    On the other hand, we aren’t seeing a curtain call yet.

  68. Does the LDS Church treat men and women as equals?
    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/51689051-180/women-lds-church-otterson.html.csp

  69. Love you Fred!!!

  70. Merry B:

    “Further, not only can no LDS woman ever become the prophet, she says, “she [also] can’t even hold a Relief Society meeting in an LDS church without a male authority figure present in the building.”

    Yikes. I had never known that about having to have a male in the building. Anybody know?

  71. Waka Waka!

    Choose to lose, Dee Benson?

  72. TC, it’s ALWAYS been that way: male authority present!

  73. Wow ET that really makes me mad. I guess it discourages the food storage lesson plan from turning into a feminist terrorist society.

  74. Fred as always is amazingly erudite.

  75. Thanks Ron. I’m glad I’m not the only supportive male on this blog.

  76. The order says that Judge Lindberg addressed the factors requested by the Court of Appeals and made the required showing for the indefinite stay of both the April 8, 2011 order by Judge Benson (giving the trust back to the FLDS) and also the April 14, 2011 Show Cause order by Judge Benson. It has been ordered until such time as the stay is dissolved by the Appeals Court.

  77. Translation please?

  78. The way I read it, is that the temp stay remains in place until the 10th has exhausted its case and made a ruling. If the 10th ruling is further appealed, by either party by any ruling, it goes up the ladder with the status quo.

    So, a huge victory.

    The reasons stated that allowed that, is that Lindberg showed there was good cause for appeal, and also imminent danger to the trust, using the books and eviction as perfect examples.

  79. I’m glad the Tenth District Courts decision came down as quickly as it did.

    It’s my opinion that the flds decision to evict Ruth Steed Jessop out of her home and have the library broken into and the books burned and stolen,locks changed etc.; Can be attributed directly to Judge Benson’s hasty decision to turn the U.E.P.Trust back over to the management of the flds church.

    Judge Benson must have believed, that in granting them another chance, that the leopard would or could change its spots.

    He knows the answer to that question now.

    I.W.

  80. I totally agree with you Anon I.W. and the leopard proved Judge Benson wrong. Hope he can get all the egg off his face before it hardens.

  81. “Does the LDS Church treat men and women as equals?”

    My Aunt and Uncle are still very active in the LDS Church. My Uncle is the 1st councilor to his Bishop in a Central Utah ward. I have never seen him win an argument with my Aunt. He doesn’t even try. When she says “jump” he asks “how high?” They are both very devout. My Aunt is clearly the boss and my Uncle freely admits it.

  82. Oh and about the doors, all but 2 doors were recovered. No one is sure where the 2 missing doors are at this point in time. They could have been burned, but no one’s talking.

    Proud Texan said this on April 26, 2011 at 6:05 PM

    …………………………………………………………

    I can talk about that:

    When Jerold Williams arrived on the scene of the bon-fire at the library on Saturday, he saw two of his solid hardwood doors burning on the fire. He asked one of the flds men there to please not put anymore of his or Kevin Lebaron’s doors on the fire.

    He asked them to stack them outside and he would have somebody come by later to pick them up.

    When Jerold went through the building to see what was left in the building before they changed the locks and locked it up, he told me there wasn’t a book left in the building.

    The following day, when Kevin went over to pick up the doors, three different “keystone” cops showed up in different vehicles to investigate him. They had received an “anonymous” tip that someone was stealing building materials from the property.

    When I asked for an officer to respond to the scene, the first thing he did was ask me by what authority I was making a claim at this property. I told him it was on hehalf of the U.E.P.Trust fiduciary, Bruce Wisan, and he said, “Who is he”?

    I didn’t get what game he was playing at first but he later went on to explain that Bruce Wisan and Judge Lindberg had been stripped of their power and had no authority here anymore.

    I told him his information was outdated and he decided to take a few pictures and open an investigation.

    I asked him why someone from the police department didn’t respond to such a large fire near the police station; Why hadn’t they called Bruce Wisan or someone and he said that they hadn’t received any complaints.

    Later, he asked me to gather what information I could and give him a statement so he could write up a report to submit to the towns prosecuting attorney.

    He said after that, they could determine whether to press charges or take the position that the breaking in of the building, and the burning of the books, was just a “civil matter”.

    I.W.

  83. THX for the clarification IW

    BTW Cheers and two thumbs up for you guys!

  84. IW,
    You have our all our respect for what you do.

  85. Fresh story on the travels phone calls and eating habits of Warren

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51577634-78/county-jeffs-jail-doran.html.csp

  86. Wow, I.W., great update. You rock.

  87. The Schleicher County jail is smaller than the 96-inmate facility in Reagan County, and there is only one phone in the common room, Doran said. It is shared by all inmates; eight people were housed there Wednesday, Doran said. Like Big Lake, phone usage is limited only by the number of phone cards an inmate has purchased, but the telephone in Schleicher County is functional only between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m.

    Seems like the people at the ranch and crick might get more sleep. The Reagan County phones were operational from 5:00 am until 10:00 pm.

  88. OK… so obviously the leopard ain’t changing its spots.

    Does anyone have a clue how the courts SHOULD resolve this Trust mess?

    Would it be easier for the courts to turn it over if the church leadership were to change? In other words get a smart new leopard instead of expect the old one to change its spots?

    I also wonder who would become the new leopard if the current one dies?

  89. ad hoc

    I’m all for breaking it up and giving it to the benies as the state has been striving for.

    Then, if people want to give it back to Warren, and he abuses them further, no pity would be offered.

    And I would hope LE steps up enforcement on abuses regardless of what happens.

    The handwriting is on the wall though – the united order is no longer united.

  90. But isn’t it true that the ‘benies’ are a mixed group? Living there now are the FLDS faithful and then you have the FLDS UNfaithful which is a pretty mixed group.

    It seems to me that LE should be completely changed too because I predict the faithful will try to make life for the UNfaithful a living hell.

  91. Hey 3C, this a relative?

    PLEDGER, DAVID RULON
    Birth Date: 10/14/80
    Address : 2620 E 10 N CIR, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    11:30:00 04/26/11 Triplett,Rich T SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-6-408. RECEIVE STOLEN PROP $ AM 5DIS 1943.00 [No Payments Made]
    76-6-505(3)b FORGERY-BAD CHECK $50 AM 5DIS 1943.00 [No Payments Made]
    76-6-501 FORGERY 3F 5DIS 5000.00 [No Payments Made]

  92. I think you’re right ad hoc, to make it work you’ve got to get rid of those who are loyal warrenites and have an undetermined crew.

  93. E. Texas, thanks so much for the grammar crash course.

    My take-home message is that we should not “choose to lose”.

    And that is such an easy mantra to remember since both words rhyme!

  94. I’d like to see comments from the apostates addressing the issue of how they would like to see the trust issue resolved.

  95. Why listen to apostates

  96. bob, why NOT listen to apostates. Some of them are living right there in the community, right?

  97. I.W. sounds like an upstanding apostate/handled/disenfranchised sorta person.

    S/he gave us a thrilling description of that whole burning incident. Lots better than what you read in the dorky news outlets.

    I’d enjoy hearing his/her take on the question.

  98. “Attorneys for the sect, however, argued that the state had violated the Constitutional separation between church and state”

    ……………………………..
    Oh the irony, considering that Warren Jeffs dreams of overthrowing the US gov’mint and running the entire country in the same manner he runs the FLDS – as a religious dictatorship.

  99. United Order is one of the distinguishing tenets of the fundamentalist but it totally ignores private property rights beyond the Church’s communal teaching. Their brand of Church ownership is very Theocratic and not a form of Democracy. Using democratic values of ‘Seperation of Church and State’ and Religious Freedom doesn’t begin to redress the base Theocratic beliefs of the FLDS Church. The axiom of ‘One Man Rule’ and Church outright ownership of Priesthood men, women and children are not formulated into our Republic model, it denies equality and encourages a tyrantical role by the Prophet.

    I see no common ground which is why Judge Lindberg adopted a UEP Trust form that would align with the intent of a land trust rather than reflect these FLDS Church Theocratic values. Basically, the UEP Trust should never have been formed as a means to enforce the Theocratic teachings of the FLDS Church, it’s ultimately unlawful to enfortce. How many beneficiaries have been forced out of the UEP Trust since its inception?

  100. The communal living practices of the flds are apparently restricted to real estate. This is evidenced by the fact that many flds members live in abject poverty while other have appreciable wealth. Big willie has a mercedes SUV. Warren jeffs lived in the lap of luxury. A far cry from the dictum; “they had all things in common”.

    The UEP is mot communal living, it is rather a control lever to reward the faithful and punish the expellees and those who fall away.

  101. Or perhaps punish those who dont say “how high?” when asked to jump.

    I agree there should be “real” LE there and not those Warren suckups.

    Currently both towns are being investigated for civil rights and the outcome may well lead to disincorporation, with LE brought in from Mohave / Washington cty.

    Thats whats needed – is there any question? Look at the mess they’ve gotten themselves into, Ollie!

    Oh, and I’m glad these books, doors and eviction are sitting on those desks in Denver as to the kind of misbehavior thats to be expected with Warren in charge again.

  102. I totally agree with this chemist. Jeffs’ compound at the Crick is all nicely finished and other places at the Crick are places where even the rats wouldn’t want to live. Those who live there try their best, but it’s hard to keep the place clean when the windows and doors aren’t even finished out.

  103. Bob

    Why should apostates be asked? Because – they seem to be the only ones who know the score.

    Check it!

  104. Bob,
    Maybe it is because the apostates live in Short Creek so in a democracy like the United States their opinion and rights are as important as other groups living in the community?

  105. The very meaning of apostate is liar and deceiver. Why not here the truth of the matter regardless of the score

  106. Those are relative terms applied to one human being by another human being.

    Consider this: who is calling who an apostate, liar, and deceiver?

  107. Warren Jeffs is the biggest apostate out there, I guess.

    Glad Texas roped that dope of a snake oil salesman. But hold on!

    He’s not done with his wrecking ball, just wait and see!

  108. Dear Bob,
    FU,
    Love,
    Fred

  109. Dear boob your faithlessness in apostates is very disheartening to the logically reasoned posters here, please, refrain from displaying your Stepford member blindness it is rather creepy. Thanx

  110. Bob,
    The US constitution has no line in it that says people labeled by a self proclaimed prophet as an apostate are liars and are therefore denied rights.

    I know because I have read the constitution. Have you?

    Furthermore we have a judicial system designed, however imperfectly, to decide on who “lies”. That is a court of law, the judges and jurors. Again, notice, not a self proclaimed prophet. Consequently you will need to prove in a court of law that the apostate lie and deceive.

  111. Thanks for the input Fred, love Bob.

  112. Warren knows all about lying and deceiving.

    He invented the concept.

  113. The very meaning of apostate is liar and deceiver. Why not here the truth of the matter regardless of the score

    bob said this on April 28, 2011 at 8:16 AM

    Bob the biggest liar and deceiver is one WARREN STEED JEFFS.
    There is a audio video of Warren’s first confession from Washington County Purgatory Jail on January 24, 2007 on the front page of the myeldorado.net website. Warren continued making phone calls to Merril Jessop, stating he was not the prophet up to June 11, 2007.

    Everything Jeffs has done from his father’s death up to present has been a SHAM.

  114. The Spectrum newspaper had a really great opinion piece in Tuesday’s paper. I wish the FLDS would read it and realize that IT IS WRONG TO BURN AND STEAL BOOKS!

    The written word represents knowledge. These days, those words can be found in many places – newspapers, on the Internet and in the many volumes of books found in libraries.

    Unfortunately, an assault on a planned library in the Colorado City, Ariz., area is making the opening of such a facility more difficult than it already was. About 10 days ago, authorities believe a group of people broke into a former school that had been set aside to serve as a library in the area along the Utah-Arizona border that is inhabited mostly by members of The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which teaches polygamy among its tenets. Thousands upon thousands of books were removed. The initial fear was that many of the books were burned.

    While there was a fire and some materials were burned, it’s now clear that many other books were saved. Large donations of books were made at Deseret Industries in Cedar City – enough to fill 10 pallets about four feet high – and at the Cedar City Library.

    In both cases, young men were reported to have dropped off the books, but alert workers who had heard about the incident in Colorado City via news stories called authorities. As a result, the idea of creating a library in the Colorado City area is still alive and well. And that’s a positive result given the amount of work that already has gone into the project.

    Centennial Park, Ariz., resident Stefanie Colgrove helped get the movement started and received assistance in the effort from the HOPE Organization, a nonprofit group that helps people safely leave the polygamous lifestyle and integrate into mainstream society.

    Along the way, the efforts to build an inventory for the library were helped with individual donations and $9,800 worth of books from Barnes Noble.

    The real dispute here may have less to do with books and more to do with property. Conflicting court orders has left in limbo exactly who is responsible for ownership and possession of property associated with the United Effort Plan, a trust that was seized by the state of Utah in 2005 amid allegations of embezzlement and unlawful use of funds. The old school is among the properties in dispute.

    Regardless, removing books, burning some and shipping out others is no way to resolve the conflict. Law enforcement should continue to investigate and prosecute the offenders who confiscated the books and damaged property.

  115. RICO, in the interest of accuracy I’d say it is not true to say ‘Warrant’ invented “lying and deceiving”. He has advanced it into an artful form of deviltry way beyond anything Satan has yet contrived. Of course, mentioning his orchestrating of this crime wave just proves what a ‘Hater & Bigot’ that I am supposed to be, according to WSJ’s cohort, namely William James MadeWacky.

  116. apostate – a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc…

    so when your church forsakes you, does that make your church apostate?

    Bob, you’re allright, but it’s gonna take some time before you see that deep down, we’re all the same no matter what religion or tradition we cling to

  117. CaJim

    Twue, Twue!

    I dont think Warren is heading to prison for lying or decieving either.

    Such petty offenses compared to the what that guy is really all about.

  118. willie j

    Excellent point. With some 100 LDS sects, does this make 99 of them apostate?

    And which ones would that be?

  119. Anon

    Thanks for sharing the editorial.

    Too bad those truth seekers cant read.

  120. Well Stamp, by definition I suppose all of them are apostate in some way, shape or form.

    Like you’ve pointed out, the label is only meaningful to someone, like Bob, that hasn’t yet come to an open minded perspective. If your ex flds, you’ve been there. But it takes time for the stigma to wash away.

    Voicing ones opinion, as Bob has, is just one step in wrestling with different ideas, forcing the mind open until one day, you realize the ideas you’ve always carried may have error

  121. I think that willie j is right on. What gives Warren, Lyle or others the right to call someone an apostate or for that matter an evil gentile.

  122. Willie j, bob is just trying to make trouble, he’s not voicing any opinion, he’s just stirring the pot. It’s unfortunate that there are those out there, but believe me there are.

  123. willie j said: “Voicing ones opinion, …… is just one step in wrestling with different ideas, forcing the mind open until one day, you realize the ideas you’ve always carried may have error”

    I wholeheartedly agree with this both as concept and reality, especially since I can say, btdt.

  124. Warren Jeffs is really the ultimate apostate in that he married his father’s wives (a violation of Biblical Law) and he sexually assaulted his sister and a daughter by his own admission. That should have been enough to oust him from his position.

  125. So, if bob is just a troll we should ignore him. Let him go some other place to act trollish.

  126. Bob: The very meaning of apostate is liar and deceiver

    ————————-

    Wrong
    apostate: noun
    1.
    a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.

    I would call Joseph Smith an apostate, since he abandoned true Christianity to start his own religion

  127. A challenger to Warren S. Jeffs’ leadership of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints made his case Thursday by quoting Jeffs’ own words.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51712939-78/jeffs-church-jessop-members.html.csp

  128. “… at least during my lifetime, a congregation of the Church has not sustained or affirmed anyone as President or Prophet (or, to my knowledge, in any other capacity) … ,”Jessop wrote. He accused church leaders of restricting Internet access and barring church members from viewing the videos of the jailhouse conversations supporting his case.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51712939-78/jeffs-church-jessop-members.html.csp

  129. I love it. When you go to the Utah Dept of Commerce, the FLDS has their own little tab.

    Also, looky who is the first to respond. Wonder which side of the fence he’s sitting on.

  130. I think the 10th circuit is going to see who has been doing the lyin and deceivin’…

    Oops the ball rolled out of the Utah courtyard – LOOKOUT!

  131. Why haven’t we found those moon men yet ?

    “Inhabitants of the Moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker Style & are quite general in Style, or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years.’ This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could ‘See’ whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see.”

    – Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., in The Journal of O.B. Huntington, Book 14, p. 166

  132. Texas AG responds to request for transcripts of Warren Jeff’s telephone calls.

    https://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/openrecords/50abbott/orl/2011/htm/or201105692.htm

  133. Why listen to apostates

    bob said this on April 27, 2011 at 11:21 PM

    …………………………………………………………

    Maybe we should have been listening to them all along?

    What if they’ve had access to more information than we’ve had access to all along, but we wouldn’t listen when they tried to tell us what was really going on?

    What if we are the ones who have apostatized from what we were taught growing up?

    Based on what I’m now learning on the internet, I have to ask myself, “Am I the apostate that shouldn’t be listened to”?

    Now if I’m caught learning the truth on the internet, I’m risking my wives and children.

    This never ends.

  134. @Anon 4:41. Learn all you can and don’t get caught. If you’re not ready to leave, perhaps things will get better under different leadership. And that may happen soon. I wish you the best and hope we are helpful to you.

    I think you’re right about having apostatized from the earlier way of life. Good luck.

  135. Merry Blasphemer:

    “Why haven’t we found those moon men yet ?
    “Inhabitants of the Moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker Style & are quite general in Style, or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years.’ This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could ‘See’ whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see.”
    – Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., in The Journal of O.B. Huntington, Book 14, p. 166”

    Hilarious, I totally forgot about that gem that the LDS swept under the rug. Since the fundamentalists pride themselves for following the FULL gospel of Joseph Smith, do they still believe this or did they sweep it under the same rug? Perhaps that is the reason that they didn’t teach the moon landing in the CCUSD. Maybe the FLDS are the moon men, who are hiding themselves in plain sight. Aside from Warren, they are fairly uniform in size. Then again, he never really specified which moon.

  136. @Anon 4:41, my hat off to you for wanting to learn!

    Be safe though. And best of luck.

  137. Anon 4:41 Now if I’m caught learning the truth on the internet, I’m risking my wives and children.

    ———————————

    I know that it’s extremely difficult, if not impossible, for us “gentiles’ to understand why an FLDS man would walk away from his family simply because he’s told to do so.

    In my world, a man like that would be not be a man, he would be a weakling. I believe real men put their families first, and will fight to the death to protect those families. That’s the kind of man my father was, that’s the kind of man my husband is, and hopefully that’s the kind of man my son will be.

    Oh, and if you want the truth, you can find it in the Holy Bible, in the words of Jesus himself, who clearly says there is no marriage in Heaven.

    “For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.” (Mark 12:25)

    “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” (Matthew 22:30)

    Joseph Smith made up his own religion, and wrote his own Bible, so he could be justified in living a sinful life.

    The whole Mormon religion is built on sand.

  138. Mouse, I doubt that is how it is worded in the Joseph Smith inspired bible, which is what the FLDS use.

  139. Anon@4:41, if we can be of any help or point you in the direction of information, you only have to ask.

  140. No, most gentiles do not understand.

    When a man is told to leave without his family his life-long indoctrination compels him to walk away. Generally when it happens, he’s STILL a believer.

    His belief is deeply held that his wives and children were GIVEN to him by the priesthood and therefore BELONG to the priesthood. If the family (wives) are of that same mind, they are going to stay with the priesthood convinced that is where their own salvation lies. Oops, their husband just lost his; they were just informed he could not exalt them.

    One thing that would thwart all that is for the family (wives) to have the guts to say, “NO! We will stay with this man. We will keep our family together.”

    That hardly ever happens. Belief is strong.

    But then (let’s say they do stay together) you have the kind of scenario we just saw with Ruth Steed: major pressure to get the hell out of town when they strong-arm their way into the home and toss your belongings out in the yard. He’s been living on UEP property which also BELONGS to the priesthood. That’s a lot of oppression and tyranny to face in the midst of your belief.

    The tyrants count on everyone backing down with bully tactics and the deeply ingrained mind control they have over everyone – well nearly everyone.

    I just hope more like Anonymous 4:41 PM are finally waking up and smelling the coffee. But they need to convince (or is it unconvince?) their families before the attempted boot.

  141. I hope so too ET.

    You know, last year we joked about a parade through CC with in a minivan with a loudspeaker hook up. Maybe we should make it a reality this year and read the profit’s revelations and such. I’m sure we could add some flair and such that is missing when he talks. We could also have copies of the pages for passing out.

  142. And how about is voice stating “I am not the prophet” “I am the most evil man in this dispensation” and “I do not hold the keys.”

  143. We could broadcast Warren announcing that he is not the profit.

  144. I am up for this trip PT. Name the date, girl.

  145. Go for it!

  146. Maybe have a jumbotron on top of the van!!!

  147. Let’s do it.

  148. Warren Jeffs reveals that he is not the prophet

  149. Anon 4:41, when you come back, click on Merry Blasphemer’s links at 7:36pm and 7:43pm. It might be helpful information for you.

  150. What E.Texas says at 7:04 reminds me that it just isn’t the women and girls in the FLDS who are the victims…

  151. E.Texas said:

    “One thing that would thwart all that is for the family (wives) to have the guts to say, ‘NO! We will stay with this man. We will keep our family together.'”

    I agree that the families should stick together, ET, but don’t you think they would get blasted by the gentiles for being practicing polygamists? It seems to me like the men can’t win. If they leave the family they are chastised for not being a real man, if they keep the family together they will be chastised for being a polygamous sexist pig.

    It reminds me of my great great grandfather who was repeatedly arrested for bigamy. After his first arrest, he never took on any additional wives, but they continued to arrest him because he refused to abandon his family. After the third arrest, the LDS church released him from his duties as bishop.

    What are these men supposed to do, once they have taken on a second wife?

  152. Anon@8:33, If they would stop taking more wives now and renounce polygamy going toward the future, the polygamist part would die out in a generation.

  153. A variation I’ve not seen on the famous quotation:

    “When the going gets tough, the tough get going. The smart left a long time ago.”

    Maybe it applies nicely to the sheeple.

  154. Honestly, Anon 8:33, It’s an important question, but if I were to get as deeply into the subject as I think it requires, I would have to write a book.

    Suffice it to say, I have strong opinions and ideas on the matter, but I’m not ready to fire a shot here on this forum that might possibly start a war. I have my reasons for not getting into it right now.

    I CAN say a couple of things I’ve said before:

    1) The practice of polygamy (polygyny) in this country is not going to go away in either your or my lifetime. Accept it or not.

    I cannot reiterate this enough (speaking only of FLDS):
    2) Change MUST come from within.

    A sooner-than-later change for the better requires a leadership change for the better.

    I’m hoping!
    ———–

    Hey, Third Cousin… That IS a good one. I like it!

  155. There is no political will in the state of Utah to prosecute polygamists unless underage marriage or coercion is involved, so exiting members have nothing to fear.

  156. ET you must write that book!

  157. BiB is right. Do no harm, and report it when you see it.

    Note to self… write that book!

  158. ET, you’d have a whole slough of eager buyers!

  159. I agree with BiB, the people in charge in Utah don’t seem to want to be forced to deal with polygamy, so if you are only in marriages with those over the age of consent you should be ok. Remember not to take your daughters up to Canada for quickie marriages as they don’t seem to impressed by that having happened and whatever you do, don’t marry and impregnate underage girls in Texas.

    Speaking of felons in Texas, I haven’t checked to see which big house Dutson Jr was assigned to.

    (Note to self – check tomorrow)

  160. Until ET writes her book, a good one to read about what a man had to go through to make sure he was able to keep contact with his 2 young sons when he was kicked out and his wife was quickly remarried is “Zero Chance” by Jason Williams.

  161. PT: “Remember not to take your daughters up to Canada for quickie marriages as they don’t seem to impressed by that having happened and whatever you do, don’t marry and impregnate underage girls in Texas.”

    I think those are good rules to live by whether you are a polygamist or not. Thanks for the laugh, PT.

  162. I want ET to create a new entry on her blog too.

  163. Thanks for all your input I just wanted to make this blog more exciting so carry on let the howlers howel! and the growlers growl! Ye Ha!

  164. Thanks Bob …and FU
    Love,
    Fred

  165. I ❤ u fred! 😉

  166. Not right now Fred

  167. Warren and Naomie Two Days on the Beach in their swimwear. August 2004

    Also the Lord was training us how to be among them and not be recognized as being different. We crossed the Golden Gate bridge at 1:30 in the morning. I had sent Isaac Jeffs north to San Raphael to get some
    motel rooms then we drove there and arrived at
    2:15 in the morning. I went through the heavenly session and was told by the Lord that he wanted all of us to go the beach and get a suntan. The men with me as well as myself and Naomie and I had already had the men buy short which some fit me
    and I put under my britches.

    We arrived at 11 :30 in the morning, Tuesday morning at Stinson Beach and it was rainy, or very foggy and wet. As we stood there the Lord cleared the clouds and the sun
    came out and so I had the men go get some beach towels and Naomie and I found a little nook and we -Sunday, I first dedicated the area and it was a miracle, to the right and the left of us on the beach it was crowded but right around us it was empty and nobody around. The Lord allowed us to perform that work in private. We continued there
    until 2:30 and the clouds came back; the Lord
    telling us it was time to go.

    August 25, and I was shown that we were to go to the beach again and continue our suntanning and that we may even go to Chicago
    and mingle among that people after we go to
    Seattle and then to Florida and learn how to be among the wicked in hiding, not being detected.

    I was told to get Naomie a certain kind of swim wear. We ate lunch at a restaurant as the Lord has told me to mingle in the restaurants now to observe the people and see how we can mix in better. It was raining when we came out of our motel room Wednesday morning, drenching everything. It
    was wet. It was rainy and cloudy during our lunch but as we came out the clouds started to clear and we drove to Samolla Beach and there the Lord cleared the clouds both directions.

    Also I was shown that Ben Johnson
    needed a break from us as he had hesitated in
    assisting me because of his sunburn. He had been foolish and not followed wisdom, got completely sunburned the first day.

    So I had Isaac drive me back to Trinidad and Ben Johnson go on to Arcadia north of Eureka and get motel rooms and wait for us
    We went into the casino and wandered all
    around, Naomie and I, watching, observing the
    uselessness and the lie and the deception those people live thinking they can win money.
    Everywhere it is self worship, selfishness in this generation. It is truly ripe for destruction.

    You just cannot make this stuff up.

  168. Congratulations to Prince William of Wales & Catherine Middleton on your wedding day today. Ooh I do love a royal wedding!

  169. the “updated” SLT article on Willie Timpson Jessop’s bid for prophetness now features instead a whole 1/2 on Willia The Thug Jessop and how Jeffs is morally indefensible and that if the people of Short Creek were allowed access to information they too would see this and know that Willie Timpson would rule with love

  170. Article on Willie just completely re-written, Thugly now is the star.

    Ya’ll remember when the crickers were told to unplug the internet?

    Too many saw the truth, went out to the backyard and vomitted.

    Good clips include:

    ———————-

    If other members of the FLDS saw the evidence filtering out, most of which has yet to be made public, he believes they wouldn’t support Jeffs.

    “I don’t know of anyone I associate with within the church [that] would defend or endorse what Mr. Jeffs has done,” he said.

    snip

    “I was given an option. I was not run out of the church. I was told to clean up my act,” he said. But he added he’d learned too much about the evidence authorities uncovered during the Texas raid.”

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51712939-78/jeffs-church-jessop-members.html.csp?page=2#disqus_thread

  171. Oh and bob, I’m sure you dont need Fred’s help, you’ve been given the pleasure by Warren all day long!

    Heck last time I checked your facebook status it read “Warren was here”..

  172. TC

    A variation I’ve not seen on the famous quotation:

    “When the going gets tough, the tough get going. The smart left a long time ago.”

    =====================

    Carolyn Jessop was a smart one!

  173. Does anyone who knows William E. Jessop care to comment regarding his character ? Is he more progressive than previous regimes ?

  174. To lurkers all, especially FLDS who may be facing a doozy of a weekend:

    Frank Herbert’s famous Litany Against Fear

    I must not fear.
    Fear is the mind-killer.
    Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
    I will face my fear.
    I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
    And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
    Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

  175. He was Bishop of the Crick for some time, I dont recall any fireworks. But then he (was) running under Rulon, one man rule rules.

  176. I like that, ET – and I know I will like your book even more.

  177. This video is great.

  178. Royally funny PT.

  179. William E Jessop aka (William Timpson) is an imposter trying to counterfeit the actions of the self proclaimed leader of the FLDS, Warren Jeffs. What William Timpson needs to do is walk away from the crazy religion of Warren Jeffs and stop trying to counterfeit the structure of Warren and his rule.

    I believe William Timpson could truly be great if he would teach the gospel as found in the Book of Mormon. It would do William good to read and follow the example of Alma when Alma grew tired of serving King Noah.

    Alma didn’t fight the wicked king… or try to steal his kingdom. The Book of Mormon says that Alma repented of his sins and went about privately teaching the gospel. Few people have done more harm and destruction to the married families, young men and youth of Short Creek than the actions of the wicked king Warren and his servant William Timpson(aka Jessop).

    William Timpson has an entire group of people that have been discouraged away, expelled, etc. These youth are everywhere and need someone to minister amoung them as Alma did and preach that which Alma taught. This is what William Timpson should be doing instead of spending his time and resources fighting against the imprisioned self proclaimed leader of the FLDS,

    Mosiah 18:7 …. And he did teach them, and did preach unto them repentance, and redemption, and faith on the Lord

    Take notice of the example of Alma, William and go do somethng truly great.

    Remeber William, that counterfeiting Warren Jeffs’ 3 dollar bill religion or trying to get your picture on the 3 dollar bill won’t accomplish anything!!!

  180. Great post E Texas!

    The FLDS lurkers who have fears need to picture Warren in his swim suit and knobby knees.

  181. Anonymous @ 9:56 am –
    Thanks for your response.
    I will read once again about Alma from the Book of Mormon to fully understand what you have written. I recall reading about Alma many years ago, but I cannot recall specifics at this time.
    Is there someone within the FLDS community now whom you feel would be a more ethical leader than Warren Jeffs ?

  182. Born In Brooklyn,

    To try to decide a name without works it what got the town of Short Creek into trouble to start with. I am looking for a group of men that have the works to show they are worthy to take upon them the Name of Christ. I believe there could be 100 men or more in town that can start teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to their children and familes. If they don’t have their families or their children have been ran off by Warren and his evil priests, then these men can go find their families and start teaching them Faith, Repentance and Baptism.

    The UEP is still under the control of the courts, there is no need for anyone to spend time contending with an imprisoned self proclaimed leader that will never get control of the UEP again. The UEP is safe from the immediate distruction of king Warren. What people need to do is get control of their properties and use the strength of having the control of their homes to preach Faith, Repentance and Baptism to thier familes, friends and all those that will hear.

    I don’t respect any man that won’t honor the name given to him by his parents. It is the man that makes the name, not the name that makes the man.

    I don’t respect any man that will continue to have another man’s wife in his house, and yet says he is preaching the Gospel of Christ.

    By their works ye shall know them.

  183. I am glad to see that you are looking for a GROUP OF MEN (as opposed to ONE MAN) who have engaged in good works as a manifestation of their belief in and devotion to Christ. The “One Man Rule” concept leads to problems, as “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Good luck and God bless you in all your efforts.

  184. BOM Online Rewferences of Alma

    http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/17.11?lang=eng#10

    http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/23.2?lang=eng#1

    http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/18.1?lang=eng#primary

    Online BOM: http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng

  185. From Info Gal’s posting of Warren’s dictations:

    As we stood there the Lord cleared the clouds and the sun
    came out and so I had the men go get some beach towels and Naomie and I found a little nook and we -Sunday, I first dedicated the area and it was a miracle, to the right and the left of us on the beach it was crowded but right around us it was empty and nobody around.

    Hey Warren, did you ever think that maybe it was because your group was so pale-skinned and no one wanted to be near the sun’s reflection shining off of your white and delightsome (as Brigham Young would say) body?

  186. “Ya’ll remember when the crickers were told to unplug the internet?

    Too many saw the truth, went out to the backyard and vomitted.”

    ha ha ha! That really made me laugh!

  187. WOW, judge Kalauli is leaving the Moccasin Justice Court and going to Lake Havasu. I guess Kalauli has been having a tough time trying to figure out which FLDS faction owns him, considering the battle for control of the church.

    Rod Parker must be feeling the tension, too. Poor schmuck.

    Farewell Judge Kalauli. Don’t let the door hit you on the butt as you leave. And you might want to get your old books out and brush up on the law. You’ll need to follow that in Havasu.

    http://www.havasunews.com/articles/2011/04/27/news/doc4db7adf54d29e794702283.txt

  188. Warren’s new digs. Apologies if previously posted.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51577634-78/county-jeffs-jail-doran.html.csp

  189. Thanks Chemist for those links, I will review those materials you posted this evening, and I’ll get back to you with any questions I have.

  190. More strange Utah Mormon Fundamentalism. You just can’t make this stuff up!

    http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-13797-passed-off.html

  191. I have previously read about the history of the woman mentioned in that article posted at 11:58 am. She was coerced into leaving the mainstream LDS church to join the AUB by her husband. She was extremely uncomfortable with the AUB lifestyle which forced her to live in abject poverty with other “wives” whom she was not compatible with .. and she reported that she felt neglected by her husband as well as quite depressed. I hope that she avails herself of mental health treatment as part of the rehabilitation process in the criminal justice system.

  192. Does anybody know if the dairy in Colorado city is still supporting Warren’s program? Also, what all the meetings are about at the big meeting house there? Seems like they are at odd days and times.

  193. I don’t know what goes on in the big meeting house. After careful review of Alma Chatper 31:15-19, it makes one wonder what the meetings in the big meeting house are about.

    Mosiah 31:

    15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a aspirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.

    16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast aelected us to be thy bholy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that cthere shall be dno Christ.

    17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast aelected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bbind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.

    18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

    19 Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure.

  194. B of M,

    What do they think about you not attending their meetings ?

    Are they about to remove you from the community – or have they done that already ?

  195. Born in Brooklyn: You are welcome, btw, thanks for your many posts and links on the Canadian Polygamy case and discussion.

  196. I am reading the first link in Mosiah provided by chemist. Is King Noah the same Noah as in Noah and the Ark?

  197. No. The King Noah in the BOM is a different person than the biblical Noah, the ark builder.

  198. Question…is the person posting as “BiB” the real Born in Brooklyn…or has an imposter slipped into the room? Just curious. I know it’s happened before, I thought with Betty, someone using her name [minus her icon]. Just trying to keep the players in correct order.

  199. Really? Imposters?

  200. No, it’s me, abbreviating my handle for use on the Ipad.

  201. Yes someone impersonated Betty on this blog last year.

  202. OK thanks, BiB. I just wanted to make sure a snake hadn’t entered the room using your good name.

  203. No. Good night

  204. I think it would be pretty hard for an impostor to try to pass themselves off for the Born In Brooklyn poster. Born In Brooklyn is REALLY smart. His/her level of intelligence is difficult to fake.

    But I do remember the “fake Betty” matter.

    Better safe than sorry, mc199.

  205. Does anyone know how to contact that Excel-Anon poster who made the Excel spreadsheet listing the 50+ attorneys involved in the plethora of FLDS court-related filings?

    I think the list needs to be updated, as more lawyers have now joined the pack.

  206. OOPS, maybe in my 12:50 AM post I should have added that the REAL Betty is pretty darn smart, too.

    In fact, Betty is one of my most favorite posters on this blog. I really relate to her and appreciate her comments.

  207. I.W. said When I asked for an officer to respond to the scene, the first thing he did was ask me by what authority I was making a claim at this property. I told him it was on hehalf of the U.E.P.Trust fiduciary, Bruce Wisan, and he said, “Who is he”?

    I.W. which responding officer “keystone cop” said that to you? If you don’t mind telling me.

    And did this same responding officer tell you that it was a civil matter? Because it is my understanding that it is a felony theft matter.

  208. Where is Excel – Anon ? I miss that poster. Excel – Anon’s last spread sheet was constructed over a re-heated lasagna dinner, if my memory serves me correctly.

  209. That’s one reason why I have a gravatar. Helps you figure out who is real. And thanks for the compliments. I have not posted for several days because I am on vacation. Tuesday morning was, I think, my last post.

  210. Sheriff Doran reports that Warrant is eating well and getting plenty of fresh air and sunshine.

    Now THERE’s a load off our minds.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2011/apr/29/warren-jeffs-moved-to-schleicher-county/

  211. I wonder if he got the news that he lost in court this last week.

    How do you tell a prophet the bad news? I wouldnt want that job!

    NOOoooooo Thankeee!

  212. Say, the trib article was pretty funny with Willie the thug saying that Warren was “Morally Indefensible”.

    Just never thought he could form those words…..

  213. “How do you tell a prophet the bad news?”

    Well Chaps surely the Lord has let him know since he supposedly has direct access. But if that channel is closed, bad news bearing is one of the things lawyers are for.

  214. I wonder why Fred hasn’t weighed in on Judge Kalauli’s impending exit?

  215. “Little Willie” sent out bulk mail recently telling why he has the right to rule. It is the same as the affidavit he has filed recently.

    While I consider “Little Willie” infinitely better than Warren, I am concerned about it being like a mayor who is voted out; the new mayor cleans up Town Hall, but in his second term, he becomes more corrupt than the previous mayor.

  216. Cement, do you think at this point there is any chance at all of a return to a situation in which the church operates with a voting priesthood counsel for a check and balance? Does Centennial Park operate that way?

  217. Dear Judge K,
    FU and good riddance
    Love,
    Fred

  218. CP does have a priesthood council.

    Cement, I too am one to question everything, question authority, but if “Little Willie” would be “infinitely better” then wouldn’t whatever it takes to get him on board be a good thing?

    I do have difficulty imagining how Warrenites will deal with it if he wins the corporation Presidency battle. Might have to call for martial law.

  219. Personally, I think William Timpson is a Trojan horse.

    Wisan should check and see who’s troops are in the underbelly.

  220. Sun Dwellers:

    “Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?…when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271)

    -Brigham Young

  221. Chaps, you made me laugh, first with the thought of who had to tell the profit the bad news and then with the Willie comment.

    I have to agree on the Willie comment. I would have never thought of those words from him either. As for telling the profit the bad news, maybe one of the Rangers got elected. If not, he probably has access to the Standard Times and/or Eldorado Success.

  222. I agree with you cement, also with info gal about the trojan horse.

  223. Info Gal speaks wisdom. My vote is the disenfranchised money men are behind it. They want to gain the possessions, clean up their PR, slip into the shadows and go back to doing what their grandfathers did. SSDD.

  224. So far, William E. Timpson (aka Jessop) is not winning the confidence vote – at least not among those who post here.

  225. Well BiB, if it’s a vote between William E. and Warren S., I’ll take William E. any day of the week. We know what Warren is about. There’s no way William E. could be worse.

    One thing he could do to help earn my vote would be to tell Flora and the Wall girls where their mothers are.

  226. From your keystrokes to God’s ears, PT.

  227. Keep in mind, when I said “Infinitely better”, anything divided by zero, no matter how small, is still infinity.

  228. Oh dear. If we start speaking statistics and math, I’m going to plead the 5th. lol Not my forte.

    No, I’m sure predicting any leadership changes at the crick is a big black hole with a giant question mark sitting at the bottom of it for now. I just feel that folks there are pretty near rock bottom and Will E could bring a welcome change no matter how long it lasts. Right now the tyranny there is godlessly fearsome!

  229. Judge Kalauli actually deserves a double FU.

    Mohave County wanted to move the Moccasin Justice Court and build a new justice center closer to civilization – around the Beaver Dam/Scenic, AZ area. More people live there than in Moccasin/Fredonia (except for the FLDS) and both of the other towns are right off of I-15.

    The Black family offered to DONATE a parcel of land in Scenic to Mohave County to build the new justice court. The Blacks were also going to kick in $50,000 and the cost of digging a well on the land. The Blacks own most of the casinos in Mesquite, Nevada, just down the road from Beaver Dam.

    Most of the future growth in population will be in the Beaver Damn/Scenic area; most of the traffic tickets Kalauli handled come from the Beaver Dam/Scenic area; and the greatest number of court filings were coming from that area.

    Plus most of the Arizona Strip residents use the DMV in Beaver Damn, so it would be more convenient to have the courthouse there too.

    Judge Kalauli fought it because he said it would be too inconvenient for him and his staff to commute to Scenic. He was just being selfish! There was even a recall effort in late 2009 to have him removed from office because of this.

    The Mohave County Board of Supervisors finally gave in to build the new facility near Colorado City because Moccasin Justice Court Judge Mitchell Kalauli bullied them and said that current court staff may quit instead of driving to Scenic.

    Now, Kalauli bails and is heading to Havasu after causing all of this grief about the new courthouse.

    What a little twit! You won’t be missed judge Kalauli.

    Double FU,
    Love, Fred

  230. FLDS Texas Admins –

    I suggest that an Anonymous Apostate Poll should be placed on this blog, so that those apostates who actually know William E. Timpson – Jessop can vote on the following questions :

    1) A William E. Jessop Presidency would most likely be an improvement compared to the reign of Warren Jeffs.

    2) A William E. Jessop Presidency would NOT be an improvement compared to the reign of Warren Jeffs.

    3) No significant changes would be anticipated with a William E. Jessop Presidency compared to the current state of affairs under Warren Jeffs.

  231. According to the San Angelo Standard-Times article

    Visitation lasts two hours on Sundays and Wednesdays, with two visitors per visitation for 20 minutes, Doran said.

    I wonder if Warren will get any visitors tomorrow. I also wander if the “most faithful” followers living at the YFZ ranch even know about the two split factions’ battle over control of the corporation/UEP Trust.

  232. Might sound like a stupid question, but does an inmate get to choose which visitors he receives?

  233. Third Cousin, it is important that Warren gets plenty of sunshine. There aren’t any tanning beds in jail; Warren must maintain his suntan the old fashioned way.

  234. Yes an older anonymous, an inmate can choose and refuse visitors. Most jails have the inmate make a list of their potential visitors and no one is allowed to visit the inmate unless they are on the list (unless it’s someone in law enforcement conducting an investigation, etc.)

  235. The Supreme Court of Arkansas upholds the Termination of Parental Rights for one of Tony Alamo’s sheeple.

    http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=In%20ARCO%2020110428010.xml&docbase=CSLWAR3-2007-CURR

  236. More Utah Mormon Fundies causing havoc in other parts of the US; this time in Missouri. It sounds like a hodgepodge of Centennial Parkers and AUB’s. Both groups publicly state that there is no abuse in their sects. Abuse? Who us?

    A pair of Humansville twins say they lived in that community for nearly 10 years before leaving the man they both married.

    The 27-year-old women told Cedar County authorities in February they were victims of domestic abuse and sexual assault at the hands of the husband they shared.

    … Cedar County Sheriff David Starbuck … added the marriages are not legally recognized, so no crime is being committed.

    Well, gee Sheriff Starbuck, you don’t consider domestic abuse and sexual assault to be crimes???

    This guy sounds like that sheriff up in Custer County, South Dakota!

    Area near Humansville home to fundamentalists
    Group living near Humansville called a “melting pot.”

    http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110501/NEWS01/105010354/1002/SPORTS/?odyssey=nav|head

  237. Thanks for the link, anon at 8:59. One of the arguements the Tony Alamo parent sheepies made in the Termination of parental rights case was constitutional guarantees of religious freedom. Obviously that arguement did not work. Hint to flds leaders and lawyers; don’t base your defense on constitutional guarantees of religious freedom.

  238. Anon 8:59 link – this is an excellent link.
    Chemist is correct in hint to flds leaders and lawyers – placing children in households where the leader is known to have sexual contact with young women under the guise of polygamy sets a standard of child neglect sufficient to terminate parental rights.

  239. Anon 8:54 – I guess a profit needs a tan, perhaps to appear closer to the sun/Son. Hopefully it helps with the depression too.

  240. I suggest that an Anonymous Apostate Poll should be placed on this blog, so that those apostates who actually know William E. Timpson – Jessop can vote on the following questions :

    1) A William E. Jessop Presidency would most likely be an improvement compared to the reign of Warren Jeffs.

    2) A William E. Jessop Presidency would NOT be an improvement compared to the reign of Warren Jeffs.

    3) No significant changes would be anticipated with a William E. Jessop Presidency compared to the current state of affairs under Warren Jeffs.

    ============================
    Here’s my views.

    As long as you have a one-man rule in effect, you are doing nothing but jumping from one sinking ship to another; just the second doesn’t yet have as much water in it.

    For me to trust William, I have a number of requirements. I think it is pretty obvious I won’t be following him, because I seriously doubt these requirements will be met.

    William needs to tell what he knows and not hide anything, even if that loses potential followers who say “You knew WHAT?!! and did NOTHING?!!”. He needs to go back to a “Council of Friends” which was what existed before the “Priesthood Council”. The one-man rule lacks checks and balances. Tithing and contributions need to be structured in a manner that “the left hand knows not what the right hand doeth”. One way or another, no one in the church would have any clue what other members pay for tithing; not even William. Tithing should be set up like double-blind scientific experiments. Members need an exit option. He needs to preach from the pulpit “If my daughter is married to a man that leaves my religion and even becomes athiest; as long as he isn’t abusive, I will encourage them to stay together”.

  241. My last post is actually considered by FLDS as “Setting stakes for the Lord” and is considered a very apostate thing to do.

  242. cement, could you please describe the difference between “Council of Friends” and “Priesthood Council”?

  243. Cement, can you remind me of the difference between the Council of Friends concept versus the Priesthood Council?

  244. Oops, already asked.

  245. It looks like the guy who bought the house for the FLDS lost boys to live in has run off to Costa Rico to avoid going to jail for scamming and cheating hundreds of thousands of people out millions of dollars.

    Oh, and he was such a pillar of the LDS church, too.

    Hero, scammer: the two sides of Jeremy Johnson

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/51673410-79/johnson-companies-jeremy-million.html.csp?page=1

  246. My understanding of the Council of Friends is that they weren’t even to collect tithing. Apparently the Priesthood Council is a little more formal. I hope someone with more knowledge of the matter can shed more light on the subject. At any rate, we have gone from a loosely knitted Council of Friends that weren’t even to formally organize or collect tithing to “God and the Prophet only and always do right. Don’t question authority. We need another $1000. Brethren, don’t think you can’t do it. If you have faith, the Lord will open the way.”

  247. Tomorrow is the deadline the Utah Department of Commerce has put on the FLDS to figure out who owns the sheeple.

    I found this part most entertaining:

    Salt Lake City attorney Rod Parker, who represents the church in civil court matters, declined to comment, saying he’s not been directly involved with the leadership dispute.

    Do you think Mr. Parker is saying this because he has no idea who his FLDS client is?

    Like Proud Texan said before, Mr. Parker can’t represent both sides of the FLDS corporation factions. Or can he? Seems he’s represented both sides of the UEP Trust over the years.

    Polygamous church dispute may head to Utah court
    http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2011/05/01/polygamous_church_dispute_may_head_to_utah_court/

  248. oh, just so much good stuff to read in newspapers across the nation this morning!

  249. For those of you who don’t know, this George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley mentioned in the Boston Globe article about the battle for who owns the FLDS sheeple, is the same attorney who is representing the Kody Brown family of the “Sister Wives” TV reality show.

  250. The Boston Globe article goes on to quote Jonathan Turley:

    “But the court is unlikely to rule on whether someone is a prophet,” he said. “The courts are generally more inclined to consider profit with an f rather than prophet with a p-h.”

    Does Professor Turley not realize that in this case the owner of the FLDS sheeple are BOTH “prophet” and “profit”?

    He should read this blog and get educated about the FLDS.

  251. Cement,

    Would women be represented in the “Council of Friends?” I understand that women could not serve on the Priesthood council. It only seems fair that women should have a say in decision making.

  252. Jonathan Turley also submitted an affidavit for the Canadian Reference Case on polygamy – see the Canadian Reference Case thread or my Scrbd account.

  253. Is that “Church of Christ of the Kingdom of God” in the Humansville, Missouri area Ivan Nielsen’s (Wendell’s brother) group?

  254. From the article in the Springfield New-Leader it says:

    A pair of Humansville twins say they lived in that community for nearly 10 years before leaving the man they both married.

    This gives a whole ‘nother level to the phrase “keeping it in the family”.

    Twin-sister-wives

    You just can’t make this stuff up!

  255. Here’s my 2 cents on the “Council of Friends”:

    It was a group started by John and Lorin Woolley after LDS church president John Taylor made his 1886 “revelation” to them to keep the principle of plural marriage alive.

    That was their only duty! They were to make sure that not a year passed without a child being born into the “Principle”.

    Dissension grew among the Council of Friends when John Y. Barlow wanted to do more. Barlow wanted to start the United Order among the fundamentalist Mormons and start the UEP. The other members kept telling Barlow that was not their raison d’etre.

    BIB, no females were allowed to be members of the Council of Friends. This exclusive group was also referred to as “The Brethren” – as in MEN only.

    Cement, keep those “Setting stakes for the Lord” coming!

  256. More on the group of Mormon Fundies living in Humansville, Missouri

    Troubled lives for twin wives

    http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110501/NEWS01/105010377/Troubled-lives-twin-wives?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

  257. A council of friends without female representation will only guarantee that the same shenanigans with underage and coercive marriages will continue.

  258. Council of Friends: “All animals are created equal”

    Priesthood Council: “The pigs have the right to Rule”

    One man rule: “Napoleon is always right”

    (For those that don’t undertand this post, read the Wikipedia article on Animal Farm.)

  259. In the council of friends all animals are created equal except female animals, of course.

  260. I hear ya BIB.

  261. A quote from Bring ‘Em Young just to let y’all know that we monigs are damned.

    “Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).

  262. “I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow.”
    Apostle Heber C. Kimball

    “There was not any love in my union between myself and Kimball”
    Lucy Walker – Kimball, plural wife of Heber C. Kimball

  263. Wow Merry.

    Heber, you’re kinda makin me want to chop down the family tree, or at least kick you off of it. Or maybe ol’ Heber was really into cows.

  264. BIB, why do you think they call polygamy a “Patriarchal Society”? It can’t be patriarchal if women have a voice and a choice!

  265. I’m afraid I wouldn’t last very long in their “Patriarchal Society”.

  266. Cement, it is interesting that you refer to Orwell’s “Animal Farm”.

    When Brenda Jensen testified in January at the Canadian polygamy reference case, she also referred to “Animal Farm”.

    Brenda’s father, Harold Blackmore started the Bountiful, Canada FLDS sect.

    Brenda testified –

    Jensen described a childhood of abuse and control, which she compared to the dystopian world portrayed in George Orwell’s book “Animal Farm.”

    The community preached equality, where residents would pool resources and distribute them evenly, but she said in reality some residents were favoured, like the pigs in Orwell’s book.

    http://childbrides.org/canada_WFP_Brenda_testifies_at_BC_trial.html

    I think you and Brenda have hit the nail on the head. “Animal Farm” was required reading when I was in high school.

    Perhaps it should be required reading for anyone leaving the FLDS, the “Work” or just polygamy in general.

  267. On today’s date in 1843, Joseph Smith married 17-year-old Lucy Walker in Nauvoo, while an suspecting Emma had gone into town for supplies. The lucky bride later became the chattel of Heber Chase Kimball. And here we are, exactly 168 years later, trying to clean up the mess.

  268. oops, I meant “an unsuspecting Emma”.

  269. “BIB, why do you think they call polygamy a “Patriarchal Society”? It can’t be patriarchal if women have a voice and a choice!”

    Response : They don’t have a voice and a choice. Where is the evidence of that ?

  270. Sorry Anon @ 8:15 pm, I was mistaken regarding your intent. I agree, the FLDS is a patriarchal culture, but I keep hoping that things will change.

  271. Osama is dead. I wonder if he will be surprised to find that he won’t get those 72 polygamous virgin brides.

  272. Osama bin laden – another polygamist hiding in a compound –

    *handled.

  273. A brief presentation on Osama Bin Laden, the Islamic polygamist.

    http://middleeast.about.com/od/terrorism/a/me080122b.htm

  274. This discussion of the council of friends vs priesthood council is interesting to me. I think it also points out where the “Independents” disagree with those FM’s who are in groups. The group members view the council of friends as always having had structure/authority, whereas the independents view it as a loose body meant to keep plural marriage alive and nothing more. You can see the different perspectives of those early men in the paths taken that founded several of the groups, in particular, the Short Creek community under John Y Barlow, and the AUB under Rulon Allred, or no groups but independent families who come from Lewis Kelsch and others.

    It seems to me that William E. Jessop might be the only possible alternative for a lot of FLDS who are used to having a leader and will not choose to depart from a pattern of thinking that they are entrenched in. They won’t listen to outsiders. Maybe they’ll listen to insiders.

  275. I will not celebrate anyone’s death. War is hell.

  276. I agree Betty.

  277. I was concerned about the Presidents speech about it – it was really an “in your face” moment, such an occasion should be more muted I think.

    Why give the crazies more ammo?

  278. He did have that little part where he said he was after terrorists not Islam. But walking the middle path generally means that folks on both sides are mad at you, and that seems to be his choice in a lot of topics. Shrugs.

  279. Well, I cringed at the POTUS announcement.

    While the mission was a kill, not capture, mission, and I personally think that was the right thing to do in this very rare particular case, I feel that it should be played down some.

    I dont see the value in gloating, though it was a job well done IMHO.

    Intereestingly, the raid was live tweeted by a local, and he has become a reluctant star in the matter, his twitter account with attending live tweets of the raid.

    http://twitter.com/#!/ReallyVirtual

  280. Isn’t today the day where we find out who’s in charge of the FLDS now?

    or if it’s going to court…?

    I’m presuming the FLDS didn’t settle it amongst themselves and it’s going to move forward.

    Any information would be helpful! TIA

  281. A brief presentation on Osama Bin Laden, the Islamic polygamist.

    http://middleeast.about.com/od/terrorism/a/me080122b.htm

    Born In Brooklyn said this on May 2, 2011 at 8:22 AM

    Did Bin Laden use on of his wives as a human shield.

  282. Ariel, looks like the “hold” placed on the corporation runs out today in about 15 minutes.

  283. Yes Anon, Bin Laden apparently used one of his four wives as a human shield.

  284. Yes Anon, Bin Laden apparently used one of his four wives as a human shield.

    OMG! What a chicken s**t!

  285. Its probably why he took a not-immediatly fatal shot to the chest and then one to the head.

    PPPPPPP

    Prior proper planning prevents Piss poor perfomance

  286. Yes Anon, Bin Laden apparently used one of his four wives as a human shield.

    It’s about time we rescue all of those Muslim women and leave the men behind to fend for themselves. How cowardly.

  287. Oh I guesss Warren is guilty of PPPPPPP too!

  288. Washington Post

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – A woman killed during the raid of Osama bin Laden’s compound in Pakistan was not his wife and was not used as a human shield by the al Qaeda leader before his death, a U.S. official said on Monday, correcting an earlier description.

    John Brennan, President Barack Obama’s top counter- terrorism adviser, told reporters earlier that the slain woman had been one of bin Laden’s wives and had been used — perhaps voluntarily — as a shield during the firefight.

    However, a different White House official said that account had turned out not to be the case. Bin Laden’s wife was injured but not killed in the assault.

    U.S. officials have said a small U.S. strike team, dropped by helicopter to bin Laden’s hide-out near the Pakistani capital of Islamabad under cover of night, shot the al Qaeda leader dead with bullets to the chest and head. He did not return fire.

    (Reporting by Jeff Mason and Alister Bull; editing by Christopher Wilson)

  289. Here are photos of Elizabeth Smart which were released from United Nations event where she received award, some photos previously released others are new including one of Elizabeth Smart talking with Chelsea Clinton.

    http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/8uNBCcdXXb6/2nd+Annual+Diller+Von+Furstenberg+Awards/5zLnDZiHELp/Elizabeth+Smart

    Wonder what she thinks of that felonious profit Warren Jeffs, or the recently deceased polygamist terrorist Bin Laden?

  290. SLTrib’s Lindsay Whitehurst reports:

    “State to make decision in FLDS leadership struggle”

    “We’re assessing our options. When the time is right we’ll take [appropriate] action,” he [William E. Jessop’s lawyer] said Monday. “We view the deadline as something that pertains to the internal workings of the Division of Corporations but ultimately is not relevant to the ultimate decision of who is the appropriate president of the FLDS Church.”

    The president, he said, will be the person the members have decided to follow.

    In that, Jessop may be making progress. According to former FLDS member Isaac Wyler, Jessop has attracted about 150 people who have come to see him speak at least twice on Sundays. The group consists of people who have already been cast out by Jeffs and others who have defected, he said. Jeffs has excommunicated at least 30 men, including top leaders, since the beginning of the year.”

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51734521-78/jessop-jeffs-flds-church.html.csp

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    Same subject; AP article by Jennifer Dobner:

    " 'The default position was kind of the textbook example, but it's hard to say whether this is a textbook situation,' said Bolton. 'So there has to be an evaluation of all the documents.'

    It's not clear how soon the department would issue a decision, she said."

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/7547470.html

  291. ad hoc, or anyone else,

    I’m used to court rooms not board rooms (required disclosure: I’m not an atty) and the resident business law expert (spouse) is out of town. What process does a commerce dept / sec of state use to determine who gets to be honcho? I read the above link, but it didn’t help. Do they hear argument and evidence or do they make an executive decision and what is the evidentiary standard?

  292. TC, I have no business or commerce expertise either. The articles basically say the same thing: without a court order it reverts back to Jeffs.

  293. Another FLDS-related story out of Lost Wages, Nevada:

    http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14323679/i-team-lucrutive-government-contracts

  294. JNJ Engineering’s above average government contracts awarding is another area in need of full investigation. If the suspected wages are illicit or violate minimum wage laws, then Law Enforcement should take legal action to prevent unfair labor practices and stem public funds from flowing into unlawful business practices. Curious how the Utah AG refuses to pursue polygamists in his State and they then are in a position to thrive and illicitly compete in border States by employing wage practices that doesn’t harm Utah based contractors. Great set up to allow Twin City businesses to prey on Nevada, Arizona and Colorado competitors with unfair labor practices.

  295. Photo of Osama taken post – raid to be released by the WH shortly

  296. with his head blown apart? yuk.

  297. Today in Mormon History – The Westward Migration Begins

    Members of the Mormon church living in Fayette and Waterloo, New York, embark on their journey to relocate to Ohio. They are led by the Prophet Joseph Smith’s mother, Lucy Mack Smith, and Thomas B. Marsh.

    180 years ago today – May 03, 1831

  298. If you have evidence, Cajim, please present it to the authorities!! Otherwise, you’re just a blowhard.

  299. Speaking of blowhards, a non….

  300. 🙂

  301. Heah, ‘a ninny’ like most posters of your ilk you are ill disposed toward knowing facts for yourself and attack anyone who makes an informed statement. You can ask apostate men, Lost Boys and Utah municipal inspectors who(repeatedly fine) FLDS Contractors. There isn’t anything new in my comment and I was commenting that further investigation(s) are warranted, especially based upon FLDS Contractors checkered records. Why don’t you read some of the past ten years of violations on the work-sites of FLDS Contractors before you spout your pap.

  302. WAAAAAAAA. But you continually insinuate things about these people as though each one is guilty of every sin of another. Maybe you could be more specific about cases with which you are familiar rather than suppose that all “FLDS Contractors” are criminal. Being a member of a church does not make one a criminal. BTW, before (an un named poster) says her diddy about crime and religion, there are MANY people of the FLDS faith who are not polygamous. (gasp) Some of these are even contractors.

  303. KSL article on child labor violations by flds contractors.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2709009

  304. http://www.childbrides.org/abuses_WKC_tax_dollars_help_YFZ_lifestyle.html

    Another article on flds financial and labor law practices.

  305. Paragon Contractors Corporation
    1065 West Utah Avenue
    Hildale UT 84784

    “…. an FLDS construction company from Hildale, Utah, was fined $10,395 for using 12-, 13- and 15-year-old boys to do a roofing contract and then failing to pay them. Paragon Construction violated U.S. wage standards, the law that prohibits youth under 14 from working in non-agricultural jobs and the youth employment regulations by allowing the 15-year-old to operate a table saw.

    http://www.biglovecompound.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=compoundlounge&action=display&thread=64

  306. Although I agree that we should not accuse everyone in the group of the sins of a few, there definitely is a culture of ignoring the laws of the land. Fines for child labor are plentiful and easy to prove, as are the testimonies of those who have left about their own labor for substandard pay.

  307. Ditto on what Betty said. While some may paint all with the same broad brush, its known there are good people in the group and there are well, some not as good..

    IRT the child labor, its no secret that is the culture in the group. While it may be legal for kids to work in a parents company doing certain things, too often the envelope is pushed.

    And pushing the envelope is getting a lot of FLDS in trouble in Texas – where child labor is the least of their worries.

  308. I would suggest reading Daphne Branham’s “Secret Lives of the Saints” which documents child labor practices in the the FLDS owned logging camps in Western Canada.

  309. Warren’s brother Seth Jeffs must have come to the Creek for the big high-noon showdown. I saw him walking into Costco around 4 PM this afternoon.

  310. What was the “big high noon showdown” about ?

  311. Think that is in reference to the arm wrestle for the presidency. Since it wasnt, imagine this, decided amicably, then the State dept of corps will lolly gag for who knows how long.

    I think Willie has the best shot due to Warrens repeated blessings on him and his own personal convictions.

    But the arm wrestling continues. Note , one of the later trib articles has a dress pic of Willie.

    See here

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51734521-78/jessop-flds-jeffs-church.html.csp

  312. Clarification – Seth was walking into the real Costco Warehouse in St. George, not the FLDS’ version in the Creek.

  313. Maybe that’s the closest Costco to the ranch.

  314. Anon,
    What percentage of the Short Creek FLDS community supports William E. Timpson – Jessop in his bid for presidency of the FLDS in your estimation ?

  315. BiB, I was being sarcastic about the battle for control of the sheeple that’s going on in the FLDS right now.

  316. So there is no struggle taking place ?

  317. Booooooooooohhh, ‘A Ninny’ what’s true of the parts is true of the whole when they walk in lock-step to the ‘One-Man-Rule’, refuse to witness against their leaders and risk direct and severe consequences if they appeal to Legal Authorities. I am not insinuating anything, the record, arrests and fines speak for themselves. Has anyone of the over 550+ residents at the YFZ Ranch recalled any teen-aged pregnant brides [even though we have seven guilty verdicts], Priesthood men that had married Canadian girls(but were found to be present) or offered to witness about Warren S. Jeffs residency at the raunch which was never reported to Law Enforcement, somehow your benign viewpoint strikes me as being beyond naivete.

    You seem too willing to whitewash the flock in some misguided hope that it will camouflage all of the black sheep. The practiced tenet of polygyny is exposed, the Priesthood men are convicted [yet remain members in good standing] and UEP Trust embezzlements are still not redressed. This is the most fanatical group of fundamentalist Mormons committed to this crime wave that even extends across our Nation’s borders.

  318. CAJim,
    Pay no attention to a ninny.
    That troll is deliberately ignorant of the facts.

    FU to him/her/it
    Love,
    Fred

  319. Thank you Fred. Ninnies and trolls will probably aways be around. You kmow what to say to them in a terse, but effective way.

  320. Okay. This dispute over who is technically in administrative control over the two corporations is fascinating, but of how much consequence? The folk will follow who and gather where they will, but how much of who is technically president or bishop, according to the of Utah Dept of Commerce, matters in terms of who controls the UEP?

    I’m not sure I even understand my own my post. How much do we think the commerce department will affect anything? Doesn’t the reliable info comes from the Lord? And in good King’s English?

  321. Fred, I was just a hair disappointed that you never weighed in on Heber Chase Kimball and his comparison of my gender to his field cows. i assume this was an oversight, and I will issue my inaugural FU according to the certification granted to me by you a few months ago. Here goes:

    Dear Heber HC, family member that you are, and no offense to the rest of your people,
    FU!

    Feels great, except I’m thoroughly expecting an ancestor to materialize and slap me in the face.

  322. Heber C. Kimball –
    You were a misogynist.
    Here’s a posthumous FU to you.
    Love,
    Fred

  323. Fred, I’m smitten.

  324. I have that effect on women.

  325. I.W. said When I asked for an officer to respond to the scene, the first thing he did was ask me by what authority I was making a claim at this property. I told him it was on hehalf of the U.E.P.Trust fiduciary, Bruce Wisan, and he said, “Who is he”?

    I.W. which responding officer “keystone cop” said that to you? If you don’t mind telling me.

    And did this same responding officer tell you that it was a civil matter? Because it is my understanding that it is a felony theft matter.

    Anonymous said this on April 30, 2011 at 1:33 AM

    ……………………………………………………….

    The officers name was Sam Johnson. He is the brother to Matthew (Matt) Johnson that committed suicide using a train last year after he was kicked out by Warren.

    Sam is also the officer that told me that it (the book burning/stealing, burning doors etc.) looked like it could just be a civil matter to him.

    I’m not buying it.

    I.W.

  326. Brent Hunsaker with ABC 4 News in SLC just did a 10 PM news story on the recent Colorado City Library book burning. There was video tape of the FLDS unloading thousands of books which they didn’t burn, but just stole and gave away to a thrift store in Utah.

    OOOPS, someone didn’t think about surveillance cameras did they? Police (honest ones, that is) should be able to ID some of those thieves now!

    Next thing you know, the FLDS will change their story AGAIN and say the bonfire was just a neighborhood marshmallow roasting get-together.

    Check the abc4.com web site to see the video. It should be available shortly.

  327. Admin, I would rather you didn’t post my comments in moderation than that you post my comments after making changes to them without telling your readers that you have done so. Thanks so much!

  328. “..the bonfire was just a neighborhood marshmallow roasting get-together.”

    It was S’mores night in the community park! Yeah, that’s the ticket!!!

  329. IW, Officer Sam Johnson is an idiot who should lose his POST certification for even thinking that this is a civil matter. There was nothing CIVIL about the despicable act carried out by the FLDS 2 weeks ago.

    Over $11,000 worth of brand new donated books were part of that book burning and theft.

    This crime will not be swept under the rug and go away quietly. The FLDS squawk about their First Amendment Rights regarding religion. Well, I’ve got news for them, Freedom of the Press is also a First Amendment Right.

    The burning and theft of books that they don’t like is in direct violation of First Amendment Rights. I would advise them to read the United States Constitution; it does not just pertain to them!

  330. seems like the creek police state that anything is a civil matter when it is something that would require them to act against a criminal act by the flds. Now if it were an apostate i bet they would not see it as a civil matter.

    they have figured out that if they label the incident as civil they are off the hook, seems like?

  331. HHG, you are right with your assessment. Thank goodness complaints can be made to the County Sheriffs to bypass the unorthodox FLDS cops. The Mohave County Sheriff’s deputies know the law and have deemed this to be a felony case. Felony means a criminal case, not a civil case.

  332. A Anon really now you are claiming that your posting was edited?
    Please, share with us what was changed, I am all ears and would love to investigate your claim. I don’t think any of your trollish remarks here needed censuring. Our normal practice is to show edits of deletion in brackets and leave the expletive to the reader’s imaginations.

    Make your claim clearly because this blog doesn’t practice any edits without clear Editorial declarations.

  333. Brent Hunsaker has his written story online now; the video isn’t available yet. Probably will be later tonight.

    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Library-books-burned-in-polygamist-community/5q2M1KlUnEysg0SWIP2kFg.cspx

  334. A Anon, maybe you have your blogs confused. You are claiming something happened here that Bile Medvecky does on a regular basis. Are you sure you didn’t post on the Bile blog and he changed your posting, but you got confused thinking you had posted it here?

  335. A write up on Sanjiv Bhattacharya’s new book on Mormon polygamy, “Secrets and Wives” –

    http://www.alternet.org/story/150823/secrets_and_wives%3A_an_english_atheist_spends_time_among_mormon_polygamists?akid=6918.251211.odt8AW&rd=1&t=18

  336. a anon

    2011/05/03 at 11:36 PM

    Admin, I would rather you didn’t post my comments in moderation than that you post my comments after making changes to them without telling your readers that you have done so. Thanks so much!

    ———–

    a anon

    Your post went into moderation automatically for some reason. Upon review, it was seen your post included a reference to a person who hasnt even posted on this entire thread. The name was redacted as seen in the parenthesis below.

    >>> (an un named poster)

    The parenthesis clue most readers to the fact there was a self edit, or Admin edit / redaction. There was no edit that changed the meaning of your post.

    Thank you – Admin

  337. Well, A Ninny see there you are another unfounded comment made by you. Care to explain your exaggerated statement.

  338. a anon 5-3 at 4:59

    “Being a member of a church does not make one a criminal.”

    —————-

    No, nor does belonging to the FLDS Church. Its just that with the latter, if you partake in the ways of the leaders, then yes, you would be a criminal.

  339. Another quote from Heber C. Kimball, quite the misogynist :
    Journal of Discourses, Volume 7

    ” It is believed in the world that our females are all common women. Well, in one sense, they are common- that is, they are like all other women, I suppose; but they are not unclean, for we wipe all the unclean ones from our midst: we do not only wipe them from our streets, but we wipe them out of existence.”

  340. From Today in Mormon History

    Arsonist destroys the LDS stake center in Kirtland, Ohio. Elder Dallin H. Oaks, speaking at the LDS Fireside in the Salt Lake Tabernacle, repeats his injunction for members of the church to avoid criticizing leaders-“it does not matter that the criticism is true”-then continues: “The counsel against faultfinding and evilspeaking applies with special force to criticisms of Church leaders, but this is not for the benefit of the leaders. It is to safeguard the spiritual well-being of members who are prone to murmur and find fault.”

    — 25 years ago today – May 4, 1986

  341. RICO, are you saying that pledging allegiance to Warren Jeffs as profit and following his lead into the cell-o-steel kingdom is just a criminal mindset? ‘Answer Them Nothing’ is their axiom and ‘One Man Rule’ is their earthly undoing.

  342. Yeah, the point is that the tenets of this particular Church are illegal, and while not all embibe in illegal activities, all who are still members seem to support the behavior.

  343. Yes, I think many flds members consent to the illegal activity by their leaders with silence and with actis that enable illegal activities to take place.

  344. regarding child labor comments above. Are truancy laws no longer in effect? Why are children found at job sites not questioned for being out of school?

  345. Watergirl. One of the side benefits of home schooling No. Truancy

  346. WAAAAAAAA. But you continually insinuate things about these people as though each one is guilty of every sin of another. Maybe you could be more specific about cases with which you are familiar rather than suppose that all “FLDS Contractors” are criminal. Being a member of a church does not make one a criminal. BTW, before (an un named poster) says her diddy about crime and religion, there are MANY people of the FLDS faith who are not polygamous. (gasp) Some of these are even contractors.

    a non said this on May 3, 2011 at 4:59 PM

    there are MANY people of the FLDS faith who are not polygamous. (gasp) Some of these are even contractors.
    ———————————————-

    LOL Jake Jessop ain’t one of “em.

  347. Chemist, or anyone who knows, how much on average do the young LDS missionaries get paid for their two years of service?

  348. If the Dept of Commerce makes Jessop (Timpson) the leader….and the sheeple still follow Warren…..What will happen??

    Is the Dept. deciding by petitions? Is it looking at the background of the two men? What is going on?

  349. Mormon missionaries aren’t paid for their service as far as I know. But please don’t try to draw parallels between LDS missionaries and the child laborers of the Paragon (and any other) contractors. It’s not the same thing by any means.

  350. Nope, no parallels there.

    Not only do the LDS missionaries not get paid, they are expected to spend their teen years working and saving up for their missions because they are required to pay their own way. Every convert that they baptize is then expected to tithe 10% of their income, meaning that the LDS church is making millions off the free labor of their teenage members and they don’t even have to pay for their transportation. Nobody bats an eye.

    The FLDS kids are expected to do work missions instead of traditional LDS missions, where their transportation and food is paid for. Plus, they also get paid a little on top of it. There is a lot of danger involved, but that also applies to kids who are knocking on strangers doors in bad neighborhoods.

    You are correct in saying that they are not the same.

    One is paying thousands to serve their church, the other is making thousands to serve their church, and then tithing some back. Both missions would suck royally in my opinion, but the LDS kids are the ones who are really getting screwed if you think about it.

  351. I agree Ariel, it isn’t the same thing at all. We have the FLDS workers underbidding on projects here in Texas and they do it by using child labor and/or forced labor. The workers get paid nothing for their labor regardless if they are a child or not. They reward is working for the profit.

  352. The LDS kids get to go to school, finish school and see some of the world other than their own little town. I think they have the better deal because they could chose to do something else.

  353. Overall yes the LDS does have it better, but I meant the mission itself, compared to where it came from was an improvement for the kids. Now the FLDS mission is much worse because it’s no longer a two year mission. It starts when you are 15ish and ends when you get discouraged and leave the church because you are still single in your thirties or forties with nothing to show for it but a slot in the trailer park.

    Maybe Timpson-Jessop could change it back to the way it was; a two year work mission between El Cap and Southern Utah University. We know Warren wont.

  354. One is paying thousands to serve their church, the other is making thousands to serve their church, and then tithing some back. Both missions would suck royally in my opinion, but the LDS kids are the ones who are really getting screwed if you think about it.

    Anonymous said this on May 4, 2011 at 8:01 PM

    Not correct, spoke to LDS missionaries and was told that they have to raise money for their personal (clothing, personal hygiene etc.) needs and food while on mission, church pays for transportation to and from mission field in many cases, also pays rent utilities in most cases as well as cell phones, cars for missionaries in areas that require them. I was also told in some cases men and women who come from low income situations often end up with with church paying for part or all of mission costs. Missionaries don’t receive salaries

    Here’s more: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Missionary%2C_Missionary_Life

    From above: “Missionaries or their families generally cover the major costs of serving a mission. Missionaries called from developing nations may receive needed financial assistance from the general missionary fund of the Church. This assistance covers only basic living costs, as the Church has no paid ministry. No one is paid for missionary service.”

  355. They have to pay rent? With no job? Ouch. That’s much worse than transportation. I thought they at least got a place to crash.

  356. My brother served his LDS mission in the Ukraine. He worked construction and saved up his money to go. His ward then gave him a scholarship to facilitate going sooner, since they thought he was a worthy cause and because the rest of the family wasn’t helping pay (we’re not Mormon he converted in high school).

  357. Appears that LDS missionary’s families often create blogs for their sons & daughters where they post e-mails and messages from the mission field, since their are thousands of these blogs on the web, picked one that sounded interesting, from a missionary serving in Madagascar, and it appears there are no penguins.

    The website documents the missionary’s experience from the missionary training center to present. Fascinating reading, learned many things I didn’t know about LDS missionary work.

    http://mattlovesmadagascar.blogspot.com/

  358. They have to pay rent? With no job? Ouch. That’s much worse than transportation. I thought they at least got a place to crash.

    Anonymous said this on May 4, 2011 at 8:52 PM

    If you read the what I posted, the church in most cases pays rent & utilities for missionaries, I spoke to a LDS missionary, and he doesn’t pay the rent, the church doses.

  359. Whew. That would be rough.

  360. Re: traditional LDS missionary work – does anyone know the origin or the phrase “travel without purse or scrip?” The phrase is omnipresent but where does it come from? Is it bibilical? BoM?

  361. “Maybe Timpson-Jessop could change it back to the way it was; a two year work mission between El Cap and Southern Utah University. We know Warren won”t.” – as per Anon @8:44pm

    Anon, can you comment on what was done on a typical two year FLDS work mission in the past ? Thanks

  362. Re: traditional LDS missionary work – does anyone know the origin or the phrase “travel without purse or scrip?” The phrase is omnipresent but where does it come from? Is it bibilical? BoM?

    Luke 10, vrs 4 and Luke 22, vrs 35

    New Testament

  363. @anonymous 4:41 while your insight is helpful to those who may not know the work of both types of missionaires you left out two major differences. The FLDS are going about it illegally. Child labor is illegal in this country.

    Also, LDS missionaries do not work for money. They work for others souls. And their own.

    And I have a huge problem with gaining money to support felonious causes. That is all

  364. Also, I’m not any religion. But I do study all I can about any religion. Hinduism, catholicism, blah, blah.

    so I’m not trying to argue a certain cause here.

    Actually, yes I am. I’m arguing for the cause of THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES.

  365. Ariel, if you are comfortable with this none of my business question, did you grow up with a religion that you have cast off, or did you grow up with none?

    I always enjoy your posts.

  366. The Amish are getting busted for child labor law violations:

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92732&page=1

  367. Here you go, TC – see verse 35 in the link for Jesus’ instruction to his disciples to travel on mission work without purse or scrip.

    http://kingjbible.com/luke/22.htm

  368. LDS missionaries do not get paid. They or their family pay about $400 per month for the missionary while he or she serves. If the missionary is paying his/her own way they would need to have the money saved up before they leave. Male missions are 2 years long and the female missions are 18 months long. If the missionary or their family is unable to pay the $400, members of the local ward can commit to pay some or all of the money. The church does have missionary funds that could be used under certain circumstances. This information applies to missionaries from the USA. I am not familiar with the system for missionaries from other countries.

  369. TC, I grew up in a religous family and thought it was crackpot. You may remember me saying a while back that my stepmother is a former member of the AUB….

    It’s not that I study other religions because I feel like a lost person looking for salvation, or that I wanted to find a more “right one”.

    I was comforable without having a religion before I decided to study up on others. I’m not on this blog to be an apologist or anything like that. I’m here because I badly needed help understanding how to fully accept my lost boys past 🙂

  370. A number of years ago, I was in Dublin, Ireland with a Mormom friend. We ran into 2 young missionaries on O’Connell St.Bridge. I let ther speak to them privately for a bit and then we went on our way. She later told me that she’d given them a little cash [much to their reluctance to accept] and had gotten their home ph#’s from them so she could call their parents and tell them they were safe, well and happy. I’ve always thought that was very kind of her.

  371. oh my goodness, I made a huge mistake! The anonymous I was replying back to posted at 8:01. Not 4:41. What an embarassing mistake on my part….

  372. I am skipping beyond reading a number of posts here because I want to address something A Texan said regarding the LDS Mormon missionaries and what they are expected to pay (on their behalf) for their time and commitment (donated to the LDS Mormon church) towards their 2 year mission to go wherever and do whatever the LDS Mormon Church has chosen for them.

    In most cases, the missionary’s family provides for the expenses that the missionary will incur during his or her 2-year stint to travel the world (going where ever the LDS church says the missionary must go) to proselytize and bring more members into the LDS Mormon church. After all, that is the entire purpose of the missionaries.

    It is pretty much understood that every young male adult in the LDS church will go on a mission. (It used to be only male members, but recently started including some female members of the LDS Mormon church).

    Since most, if not all families, are expected to foot the bill for the missionary’s expenses during this 2-year stint proselytizing on behalf of the Mormon church, then this can often become a huge financial strain on the missionary’s family. Some families have no problem meeting this financial burden, but others certainly do worry about how the costs will be managed.

    Some families work and save for many years. Some of the actual future missionaries themselves work and save for many years to make this “donation” to the LDS church possible.

    The missionaries are also expected to provide their own “LDS church-approved” clothing for their 2-year stints as missionaries. There are clothing stores throughout Utah exclusively devoted to outfitting Mormon missionaries. (Google Mr. Mac’s)

    There are now books which have been written about preparing the missionaries and their families for this huge ecclesiastical/financial undertaking. There are also unrelated individuals who have personally financed some LDS church missionaries so that they can go forth and proselytize to the world about the LDS church.

    Basically, it is all across the board when it comes to proselytizing for the LDS church.

  373. How was the typical FLDS missionary venture different from the typical LDS mission ?

  374. I cannot speak about the flds missions, but the typical LDS mission is a proselyting mission. Young LDS men can go on a mission when they are 19 years old. The female LDS missionaries must be 21 years old when go on a mission. Men serve for 24 months and women for 18 months.

  375. Chemist,
    I was just going to comment…..LDS missionaries have finished high school (no truancy) and are adults in the eyes of the nation.
    FLDS missionaries are child labor violators and truant from school and deprived of an education.

  376. Ariel,
    for some reason I always assumed you were a female. Once you mentioned the AUB lost boys connection I think thought of Shakespeare:

    Ariel (play /ˈæriəl/) is a spirit who appears in William Shakespeare’s play The Tempest. Ariel is bound to serve the magician Prospero, who rescued him from the tree in which he was imprisoned by Sycorax, the witch who previously inhabited the island. Prospero greets disobedience with a reminder that he saved Ariel from Sycorax’s spell, and with promises to grant Ariel his freedom.

    If that is the connection – what a great choice

  377. Are LDS missionaries in the south still targeted by the Klan?

    http://www.allaboutmormons.com/ENG_racism_6.php

  378. PS and if it is not it is still a great choice

  379. Anon at 7:19 am. I am not aware of the LDS missionaries in the South being targeted by the KKK.

  380. Education is highly promoted in the LDS church. Young men and women are encouraged to get education or traing after high school. The LDS church operates BYU with campuses in UT, ID and HI.

    I think they still operate LDS business college in UT.

  381. I would assume that the FLDS did not send women on missionary ventures ….

  382. Since the flds missions are work missions on construction projects, I would assume there are no female flds missionaries.

  383. AT & BIB, thanks for the bible references. Wow, that website is really handy.

  384. Genealogy help: My cousin Nona May Spencer (child of Issac Carling Spencer and Sylvia Allred) was born in Short Creek and married a Jessop and moved to the Montana AUB colony. Anybody know which Jessop she married?

  385. Another quote from Heber C. Kimball, quite the misogynist :
    Journal of Discourses, Volume 7
    ” It is believed in the world that our females are all common women. Well, in one sense, they are common- that is, they are like all other women, I suppose; but they are not unclean, for we wipe all the unclean ones from our midst: we do not only wipe them from our streets, but we wipe them out of existence.”

    —————————–

    Same rationale used by Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer, who murdered over 50 women. Since most, or all of them were prostitutes, he rationalized they deserved to be killed.

  386. Are LDS missionaries in the south still targeted by the Klan?
    http://www.allaboutmormons.com/ENG_racism_6.php

    ——————————————————
    WTF! Look at the dates in this article. I have lived my entire 50+ years in the south (except for a few years out west). The Klan is no longer a part of the south. The south is highly integrated with all races and apparently for that reason much more racially progressive. When I moved out to Salt Lake I got a flyer on my driveway about a white supremacist group. I was completely shocked that they were out there and so blatant. I found more racial bias in all white Utah than anywhere in the south.
    So, the answer is emphatically no, no one bothers missionaries in the south. We just politely, with a smile and southern drawl tell them we are not interested.

  387. sorry about my shock answer above. facts are per Wiki –
    KKK has 5,000 to 8,000 members
    deep south of Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, NC, and SC have a total of 51 million plus residents. not including Texas with 23.5 million residents.

  388. Wish I could help 3C, but I don’t have a Nona Spencer in my records.

  389. HHG, I am indeed female. 😀 When I say “my lost boys” past. I ment my fiances. I have no past with the FLDS. Step mother is former AUB and fiance is Colorado City royalty. Meaning a Barlow. But I suppose they aren’t as powerful as they used to be…

    Hmm…well I guess I can say truthfully that I have no past with the FLDS….but my dad did have two wives for a time…He joined the AUB when I was a couple of months old. But left a couple of years later, divorced his first wife and kept his second. I don’t feel as though a have the stigma hanging over my head or a “past” as a polygamist. I think dad was just trying to find love and I can respect him for that.

    But who knows. Maybe he’s “evil”

  390. watergirl has it right – the Klan is down to a handful of crackpots who hardly dare show their faces in public now, at least in the South. Expressing bigotry marks one as a hick these days, thank god. There was a recent incident with LDS missionaries in Augusta, GA that was obviously just a garden variety mugging:

    http://chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2011-04-03/missionaries-robbed-gunpoint

    And yes, except for the criminal element among us, Southerners treat missionaries kindly, even offer them a bite to eat if they’ll take it. I don’t usually tell them I’m an ex, though – I don’t want them feeling like they need to follow up with me.

    When I was in as a teenager, they taught girls that our priorities were marriage, education, mission in that order – boys were taught mission, marriage, education. The emphasis on early marriage takes most women out of the missionary pool. And there was a definite note of pitying ‘old maid’ social judgement on those who stayed unmarried that long.

    IMO, even beyond breaking child labor laws and not having a choice, what the FLDS calls a mission would hardly qualify under any logical standard – how does fulltime construction-for-profit help spread the church’s beliefs? Nah, it just magnifies the church’s wallet.

    I’ve enjoyed lurking here for some time now, waiting with the rest of y’all to see how this all shakes out. I have a question that someone here might be able to answer – is there a reason the FLDS don’t seem to mark most of the graves in the city cemetery with anything more than a temporary funeral home marker? The leaders seem to have gotten permanent markers in the past – do they view this as a waste of money otherwise, or is it something else ol’Warren has to approve these days?

  391. Ariel

    I would say it just didnt work out for your dad. He may have been cut out for it but perhaps the wives, not. After that experience it seemed like he learned his lesson.

    Perhaps to be a true blue polygamist you really have to crack the whip. Imagine that – polygamist wives calling their husband a “Cracker”.

  392. Here is a piece written by my friend John Llewellyn on the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy :

    http://polygamybooks.org/2011/05/01/the-canadian-constitutional-reference-case.aspx

  393. @ soexmo….because people can’t afford the headstones. When you’re told to turn over your money to the church (usually through the bishop) on a regular basis, most people just don’t have what it takes to fork over $6,000 dollars for the proper burial. Of course, if you’re in good standing, you get all the bells and whistles. The preisthood takes care of its own!

    And I suppose over the years, people just take it for granted and it’s become a normallity.

    @ stamp, your post gave me a good smile. And no, he wasn’t cut out for it at all. Even though the AUB is alot less stricter then the FLDS he had a very hard accepting that god can only have one mouthpeice at a time on this earth. After all, the bible proves god has spoken to more than one person on earth in the same lifetime. Thinking of the new testament here where the apostles (who lived ot the same time!) acted as prophets.

    Why don’t the FLDS question this? Do the people not feel worthy enough? Do they believe they are too lowly for god to talk to them? And if so, isn’t that contradicting the theory of a good and gracious god that cares about everyone?

    Another question, do they read the same bible? Or just the D&C stuff? Help!

  394. Yes, the FLDS read the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine & Covenants.

  395. watergirl, I agree with you that Mormon missionaries aren’t targeted by the Klan. However, two of them (they travel in pairs for safety reasons … and other church reasons) were harmed a just last month in Georgia. Two female Mormon missionaries were mugged and robbed. Yes, it can be an unsafe endeavor for these faithful young Mormons to proselytize for their church.

    Jared Preusz, Web Content Producer Fox13Now.com

    3:06 p.m. MDT, April 4, 2011

    AUGUSTA, Ga.— Police in Richmond County are searching for an armed robber after two sister missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said they were mugged in South Augusta Saturday evening.

    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-missionaries-robbed-2-lds-sister-missionaries-robbed-in-georgia-20110404,0,2924255.story

    AUGUSTA, Ga. (AP) — Authorities say two Mormon missionaries were robbed at gunpoint while they were discussing baptism with a man in Augusta.

    Richmond County sheriff’s deputies say the women told them they were talking about baptism with the man when he pulled out a gun and demanded their purses.

    The Augusta Chronicle reports that the man fled with their purses, which included a Book of Mormon, a Bible, camera, cell phone, and driver’s licenses.

    Authorities say the women were preaching on behalf of the Utah-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when they were robbed in the 2300 block of Winston Way around 7:25 p.m. Saturday.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700124271/Mormon-missionaries-robbed-at-gunpoint-in-Georgia.html

  396. Cement and BiB, FLDS girls DO go on work missions. They are sent out along with the boys to cook their meals, etc. I have spoken with some ex-FLDS teenage girls who said they had to go with these work missions to do the cooking for the crews of workers. They said it was awful. As soon as they had cooked one meal for the crew, it was time to start on the next meal. Not a fun time for a teenager – male or female.

    Little fun and little joy; just WORK WORK WORK

  397. There have been murders, in Mexico and I think in Texas, probably more, however those (that I know of) werent targeted for religion.

    For instance, two LDS missionaries were mistaken for FBI in Mexico and were killed by paranoid drug lords.

    I tried to google that story but was swamped by stories, in particular just recently a Christian missionary was killed in Mex in an attempted robbery for the vehicle its suspected.

    Its a dangerous endeavor – you are out in the streets and not in the gate guarded communities either.

  398. I should have said:

    As soon as they had cooked and washed dishes for one meal for the crew, it was time to start on the next meal.

  399. watergirl said “I found more racial bias in all white Utah than anywhere in the south.”

    Hey, you got that right. I would NEVER tell anyone in Utah that I once had a black hairdresser and a black OB/GYN. Since I am white, they would FREAK OUT.

  400. Thanks, Ariel. I get the expense thing, I really do. I have an interest in homemade grave markers and the ways people sometimes cast them in concrete and decorate them. It looks like the FLDS don’t even do that, and I wondered if it was something in their beliefs until I saw the leaders have ‘storebought’ markers.

    Interesting how the Utah press reported the missionary mugging. Whoever did assignments in Augusta has probably now learned their lesson – that’s a pretty rough neighborhood to send the sisters out in.

  401. So $400 a month for 24 months? That’s almost $10,000. That’s fine for the wealthy members, but the rest should be using that money towards college in my opinion.

    The LDS only value education that does not contradict their teachings, so an awful lot of important stuff is left out of the BYU curriculum.

    The Amish article states that they have a religious exemption from the government for 14 year old kids to work on the farm instead of going to school, but the exemption does not apply to the sawmills. The Amish are taking the case to the supreme court because they believe that it violates their religious freedoms; as they are moving away from farming and into other areas as a culture. The belief that got them the child labor exemption in the first place was rooted in a Bible passage about how to raise your kids.

  402. There are over 100 communities in the US alone where the per capita income is under 5.5 thousand dollars. Ironically, Colorado City and Hildale are both on the list.

  403. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_poorest_places_in_the_United_States

    Sorry, here’s the link.

  404. Yes, the FLDS read the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine & Covenants.

    Born in Brooklyn said this on May 5, 2011 at 6:13 PM

    —————————————————————-

    That’s not quite right. We almost never read the old or new Testament or Pearl of Great Price. We rarely read out of the Book of Mormon but do read out of the D&C.

    We are taught that the current prophet is the one to “look to” and his writings are mostly what we read.

  405. It is my understanding that the Old and New Testaments are both considered canonical documents by the FLDS. Whether or not they read those texts on a regular basis is a different matter.

  406. Betty Jessop was sent on a “work mission”. She was sent to Arizona to cook and clean for a group of her brothers who were working there.

  407. @ PT re my genealogy query (or anyone who might know) re Nona May Spencer (1941-1988) daughter of Isaac Carling Spencer & Sylvia Allred): maybe she married one of the AUB Pinesdale leaders, Morris Yeates Jessop or Marvin Musser Jessop (born in the 1930’s), both sons of Joseph Lyman Jessop.

    Anything? Nona May died at 47. I’m curious what happened.

  408. Ariel said I think dad was just trying to find love and I can respect him for that.

    Good for you, but what comes to my mind is the old song “Looking for love in all the wrong places … Looking for love in too many faces …”

    You get my drift.

  409. soexmo said:

    “Southerners treat missionaries kindly, even offer them a bite to eat if they’ll take it.”

    And you might be changing their lives for the better by introducing them to a mess of greens (turnip/collard/mustard), corn bread and grits. Good for you, feed them some REAL soul-food!

  410. Honor killing of another uppity woman :

    http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/alexis_wiley/20-year-old-woman-dead;-stepfather-charged-with-murder

  411. soexmo said:

    “I don’t usually tell them I’m an ex, though – I don’t want them feeling like they need to follow up with me.”

    Don’t fool yourself honey, they KNOW if you’re an “ex”. And they know where you move to; they pay the US Postal Service to get your forwarding address. And they usually want you back badly.

    One of the few great things about now living in Utah is that we are finally left alone and not “followed up” with. Now, we are actually ignored and not bothered. We are hiding in plain site. I also bet we are now counted as “members” living in Zion. It’s probably part of the numbers-crunching factor.

    It is really strange, but not being bothered has its rewards!

  412. soexmo – I did a double-take when I saw your moniker – in my head it was sexmo, which lead to some weird speculation. Welcome. I also lurked for a period before commenting. Welcome, the way I was swiftly welcomed when I joined up.

    Can’t wait to hear more. This is a good place.

  413. Stamp, sometimes being called a “Cracker” is honorable … but only when it’s a “Georgia Cracker”.

  414. Someone asked about the phrase “without purse or script”. Is this what they meant, because these Mormon missionaries lost their purses?

    “AUGUSTA, Ga. (AP) — Authorities say two Mormon missionaries were robbed at gunpoint while they were discussing baptism with a man in Augusta.

    Richmond County sheriff’s deputies say the women told them they were talking about baptism with the man when he pulled out a gun and demanded their purses.

    The Augusta Chronicle reports that the man fled with their purses, which included a Book of Mormon, a Bible, camera, cell phone, and driver’s licenses.”

  415. soexmo, I’d imagine it’s because the family can’t or doesn’t afford a real headstone.

  416. Hah! ‘so’ for Southern, ‘ex’ for excomunicated, but thirdcousin, your’re not far off the mark. I refused to tell the bishop all the naughty details about my nonmember boyfriend, laughed when he asked me to promise I wouldn’t do it again, told him to go ahead and ex me because of the whole “mark of Cain” BS. Oddly, six months later someone had a convenient revelation, just as in polygamy days. When it comes up I usually point out that they could solve their doctrinal “gay problem” any time if they really wanted to…

    11:21, they don’t want me back. They don’t seem to be chasing down lapsed folks down here – other members of my family haven’t been contacted in years. They don’t even ring my doorbell – it’s my Methodist neighbors who feed them (greens, cornbread, and even barbecue! Their card must read “Not interested, check back six months, great food.” They don’t mind, though.) The Pentacostal neighbors don’t feed them but like to argue scripture with them.

    Funny how the Deseret News changed the story from the Augusta Chronicle, which mentioned a cigarette case as one of the items stolen.

    The FLDS temporary grave markers just seem so forlorn. I know they probably can’t afford much, but can’t they scrape up some leftover Quikcrete and mold something homemade that shows their love and respect for their departed family members, especially all those children? Handmade markers are just as beautiful because they’re truly heartfelt, IMO. Most of the cemeteries in Utah are truly gorgeous, even in the desert – there they go being exceptional again, I suppose. But it really comes across to me like they just don’t care – once gone they’re forgotten.

  417. @ Anon 10:58 you got that song stuck in head for hours on end and I was humming it for a good part of the day. I was in the middle of belting it out to my spatula microphone when my fiance walked in….ooops. Awkward lol.

    Thanks for everyones information on the scriptures that are used by the FLDS. Good night!

  418. Welcome, So-Ex-Mo!

  419. Also, welcome, Soexmo

  420. My “handle” hellohellogoodbye was because I was lurking and was only going to ask one question and then get out of Dodge.

  421. This may have been posted earlier, it’s bad news, appears state officials have decided to let Warren Jeffs remain as president of FLDS.

    From article: “Commerce officials say Thursday Jeffs will remain the president of the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop, which holds the business and property assets of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.”

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=15428297

  422. HHG, why are you posting as anonymous ?

  423. Wisan back in news over trespass case, so far no ruling on evidence from locksmiths etc.

    Read the rest: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51759427-78/wisan-court-testimony-trespassing.html.csp

  424. A Texan, the real news on Wisan is that his trial happened in November and there hasn’t been any ruling on that. Despite what Mudpuppy claims (who has been amazingly silent) Wisan and Barlow haven’t been convicted, there hasn’t been a ruling one way or the other.

  425. Warren was named President of the Presiding Bishop which doesn’t really mean squat, there has been no decision on the position of President of the Corporation. It was the POC that Benson ordered the Trust returned to, not the POPB. I think the Dept of Commerce is wrong in saying that the POC is the Profit. It didn’t work that way when Wendell was named as POC.

    I didn’t even realize that there was a document declaring the POPB. I doubt one was ever filed when Uncle Fred disappeared and William E. took over. Who knows how many there were between William E. and Lyle. Makes me wonder if Merril filed some papers in Austin as POPC of the YFZ chapter of HOOT. I kinda doubt it. Although Merril does have a hearing next Thursday. Maybe someone could ash him.

    From what I can tell, Warren is making stuff up at the spur of the moment.

  426. BiB

    updated a browser and it removed my “name” sorry about the anonymous posts!

  427. Anon

    I was referring to the latter use, found on the web, but heard it explained this way by others, second description:

    And that is the description I was referring to for a “Successful Polygamist Man” – he needs to be a real whip cracker.

    Term: Cracker Who: Whites

    First used by the slaves to refer to their slave owners.

    Could originate from a) ‘corncracker,’ someone who distills corn whiskey, or b) the ‘crack’ of a whip the slave owners used.

  428. The original “crackers” were cowboys from Western Florida who migrated westward with their herds. The term “cracker” refers to the crack of the whip.

  429. But cows cant say Cracker, slaves can! he he he

    Well, Warren has an interesting way of doing it – talking in a monotone creepy voice, with the subtle hint you will be handled if you step out of line.

    When Warren cracks the whip, you find yourself seperated from family and friends.

  430. BIB

    New name for Warren: “Sheeple Cracker”

    He cuts them from the herd!

  431. soexmo, welcome to this blog. I like your sense of humor. I especially liked this comment – “They don’t even ring my doorbell – it’s my Methodist neighbors who feed them (greens, cornbread, and even barbecue! Their card must read “Not interested, check back six months, great food.” They don’t mind, though.) The Pentacostal neighbors don’t feed them but like to argue scripture with them.

    Funny how the Deseret News changed the story from the Augusta Chronicle, which mentioned a cigarette case as one of the items stolen.”

    Methodists are such nice people! And yes, the Deseret News omits things they don’t want the flock to know about.

    Censorship? Who us?

  432. The term “Georgia Cracker” is derived from cracking a whip. I don’t know if it was cracking a whip on the slaves, but that is possible. I do know that my Georgia ancestors “owned” some slaves.

  433. New name for Warren: “Sheeple Cracker”

    He cuts them from the herd!

    Stamp said this on May 6, 2011 at 8:38 AM

    That is hysterical Stamp! Touche.

  434. I am very much questioning your theory of origin on the word “Cracker” for a white southerner. the people to whom it refers are low class and were probably not cracking any whips, they were probably share croppers. I was told it comes from their long shot gun style houses that look like cracker boxes. Crackers live in cracker boxes.

  435. wikipedia has a theory that it comes from some Celtic word, and that it goes back to colonial times. I find that a bit far fetched myself, but I haven’t done any research on that, so can’t really say.

  436. Speaking of Warren, he has a court hearing in St. George next week. Too bad he’s sitting in jail in Eldorado and won’t be making a personal appearance at his hearing.

    Printed: 05/05/11 03:45:10 Page 62

    FIFTH DISTRICT COURT-ST GEORGE
    JAMES L SHUMATE May 11, 2011
    Courtroom 3D Wednesday
    08:45 AM STATUS REVIEW HEARING S27 061500526 State Felony
    STATE OF UTAH ATTY: BARLOW, CRAIG L
    BELNAP, BROCK R
    SHAUM, RYAN J
    VS.
    JEFFS, WARREN STEED ATTY: WRIGHT, RICHARD A
    BUGDEN JR, WALTER F
    HOOLE, ROGER H
    ISAACSON, TARA L
    OTN: 19047984 DOB: 12/03/1955
    F1 – RAPE – 01/01/02
    F1 – RAPE – 01/01/02

  437. I read Wiki too and feel that particular article, as well as ahem likely many others, falls on its face.

    It seems the term is still debated, though this post rolls along pretty well I think, touching on pride, slaves, cattle

    ————

    “I totally agree thank you for the article.

    To further add to the argument that cracker is not a slur in Florida to be called a cracker is a source of pride.

    In Florida to be a Florida Cracker is to be known as one of the original colonizers of Florida.

    I know several people who are proud to be “Florida Crackers” because they can trace their roots back to the early colonizers of the state.

    The terms has the added meanings of being a braggart, and as you already pointed out one who uses a whip.

    “Cracker Cowboys” used bullwhips and dogs to heard cattle and were also more than willing to use same bullwhip on indigenous persons.

    Going to college in central Florida very few people were offended to be called a Cracker in fact they were quite proud to be called one and usually missed the reference to whipping slaves and indigenous persons.”

    ——–

    http://www.womanist-musings.com/2011/04/lets-talk-about-supposed-slurs-cracker.html

  438. Betty, here is what Wiki says about a “Georgia Cracker”. That is the only kind of Cracker I know about:

    Georgia Cracker refers to the original American pioneer settlers of the Province of Georgia (later, the State of Georgia), and their descendants. It is different from the pejorative term for southern whites. For that usage, see cracker (pejorative).

    In the late 19th century and the early part of the 20th century, Georgia ranchers came to be known as Georgia Crackers by Floridians when they drove their cattle down into the grassy flatlands of Central Florida to graze in the winter, stopping at where the citrus groves began. Instead of firing into the air as many “cowboy films” showed to get the cattle’s attention they became very good at cracking a bullwhip over their heads.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_cracker

  439. I first learned of the origin of the term “cracker” (West Floridian cowboys) at the Thomas Edison Winter Home Museum in Ft. Myers, Florida. There were preserved “cracker houses” for cowboys of the 19th century in the area. If you have not yet been to this museum it is well worth the trip.

    http://www.edisonfordwinterestates.org/

  440. funny to hear cracker discussed on this site. I grew up in the “cracker border” – known as North Florida, South Alabama, South Georgia area. Where I guess the Northwest cowboys came from. Never knew where the term originated from – but, yes, as mentioned above – it is a term of pride. Not a term for low life – that term per my uppity southern Mother was “corn fed.” By my friends as “white trash.”

  441. Concerning the FLDS Church property holdings and ownership, I recall reports that stated that exPresident Leroy Johnson and Rulon Jeffs names were still reflected on many property titles in the Twin Cities and then the Harker Farm issue was, inpart, caused by the ptoperty title was never placed under FLDS Church portfolio controls and confused the ownership chain. Given Warren S. Jeffs distractions and focus on the ‘Lands of Refuge’ outside of the Twin Cities, I doubt that these older and cobwebbed titles have been changed/updated. I haven’t heard anything currently about the YFZ Ranch title which was awaiting a trust formation and being held privately in the interim with some FLDS Church Priesthood men. Have any of those interim owners been ‘handled’ and cloud the ranches title?

  442. Merril does have a hearing next Thursday. Maybe someone could ash him.

    Proud Texan said this on May 6, 2011 at 7:08 AM

    LOL… Hey! Anybody got a cigarette???

  443. Yeah, I read wiki. I did not research it’s sources. So don’t know.

    I think that “cracker” changed it’s social meaning over time relative to class. I never thought of it as a compliment, but I’ve certainly been called worse things.

  444. Something’s not quite right with the posting of Warren’s hearing. They have Roger Hoole listed between Walter and Tara. I don’t think he represents Warren.

    As for Utah’s Status Review, Warren waived the 120 day time for his Texas trial, so Utah is SOL at this moment in time.

  445. It is my understanding that the Old and New Testaments are both considered canonical documents by the FLDS. Whether or not they read those texts on a regular basis is a different matter.

    Born in Brooklyn said this on May 5, 2011 at 10:35 PM

    —————————————————————–
    Your correct in that it is taught that we believe in those books but they are rarely referred to except the D&C. Warren and other leaders quotes from that a lot. They don’t often refer to the Book of Mormon anymore. That was something used in U. Roy’s day a lot.

    We are now taught the “One man rule” so strong that most required reading is the immediate revelations from the prophet for our time.

    To put it in perspective; I still remember the first time I heard anyone quoting extensively from the bible when he was called on in church. That is how rare it was.

  446. Is this a retrial on the Elissa Wall deal?

  447. I lived in Augusta for a while in ’08.

    The part of town those missionaries were attacked in is not a place where I’d spend too much time on foot.

    Augusta, sadly, is a place where there is a real dichotomy between haves and have nots. And racism is rampant. Not the Klan but race and class are intertwined very deeply. Very Old South – according to my spouse who grew up with “colored” drinking fountains.

  448. It looks like many of Warren Jeff’s Proclamations to foreign countries have been removed from the website – I guess that means that Yemen, Burma, Guatemala and all the rest have “fallen in line” and are now on good terms with Warren. (?)

    https://www.flds.org/

  449. Either that or they said “quit sending us this crap or we’ll attack you”.

  450. observing said: “The part of town those missionaries were attacked in is not a place where I’d spend too much time on foot.”

    Unfortunately for them, those are exactly the type of neighborhoods that the LDS church is wanting the Missionaries to work in.

    I work with a guy that did a mission in the south (he is now a bisexual atheist). He said he would have been scared walking around those neighborhoods if he wasn’t dressed like a missionary. He said a few guys would occasionally act like they were going to start trouble, but their peers would step in and say “leave them alone. They’re with god.”

    It’s funny that the girls were smoking. I’ll bet they were reprimanded by the Church.

  451. Here is Big Wacky’s take on the history of LDS missions. I always get a kick out of Big Wacky. This is pure gold.

  452. Maybe time for a new string ?

  453. Bib, I visited the Thomas Edison museum in New jersey. I had no idea there was also one in Fr. Myers, FLA. Thanks for that tidbit.

  454. Maybe time for a new string ?

    Born in Brooklyn said this on May 6, 2011 at 10:15 PM

    I think they’re actually called THREADS instead of STRINGS. No offense meant BiB.

  455. watergirl and Betty, I think both of you are the GREATEST. If you ever make your way west, we should meet up and eat some soul food and chat.

  456. Please continue on General Discussion #55

    Double nickels!

    Thanks – Admin

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