General Discussion #53

Continued from General Discussion #52


~ by FLDS TEXAS on April 20, 2011.

428 Responses to “General Discussion #53”

  1. If you guys hear the library is collecting books again, please post. I was not aware of the library’s efforts before, but, now will be glad to send a donation. Best that can come out of this tragedy (other than to catch the bastards) is to replace the books that were destroyed.

  2. Well the ProFLDS blogsites either post ‘no comments’ because the commentary leads to an uncontrollable exchange or the comments are posted, if they are positive to the FLDS position and descenting views are edited out. Here the whole view is allowed but the proFLDS crowd stays away and complain that posting here is too challenging and posters here swarm them like hornets. The fact that they are now defending convicts, rapists and pedophiles is justified under a guise that some great travesty from Justice has occurred. Even though the verdicts are upheld or have been plead, they somehow are still correct, even though their heroes are now housed in a Texas State correctional facility. It’s little wonder to me that the ProFLDS chooses to only post on their ‘aider and accessory’ blogsites, good riddance.

  3. “True stories” come from the storyteller’s perspective. True for the teller but listeners have to decide for themselves whether they believe there’s truth in the telling.

    We all have our prejudices and biases based on our own personal experience.

  4. Obviously that last post is mine.

  5. Hey OMFG you haven’t given a single fact or scientific statement here that you take exception too. Why knock this blog and not back it up with any proof, were you just wanting to express your opinion devoid of any factual truth? Try posting your negative comment at the ProFLDS blog and see if it even gets posted, let alone completely ignored [this isn’t my Opinion it’s a Fact].

  6. give me the book collection address, I will donate medical textbooks.

  7. CAJim you said “The fact that they are now defending convicts, rapists and pedophiles is justified under a guise that some great travesty from Justice has occurred.”

    You left out arsonists.

  8. It is not about being worthy, Betty. And I don’t mean to offend. If I told you the specific story to which I’m referring my identity would be known and I don’t want that right now. Thanks.

  9. S, I think you can mail them to the Hope Organization address with a notation that they are for the Colorado City branch of the Mohave County Library.

  10. But if I were to tell then, I believe, even CaJim would have to change his perspective. He probably wouldn’t like to admit it though.

  11. Isn’t it interesting that the burglary and vandalism of the old schoolhouse building and the subsequent arson of the thousands of donated books happened right after Judge Dee Benson “gave” the UEP back to the FLDS?

    Isn’t this pretty much what Judge Lindberg was concerned might happen? Crimes against apostates and other innocent people would start up again?

    And those books belonged to a charity in St. George. They were not physically attached to the schoolhouse, so could never be considered to be UEP property.

    It’s really scary to think what they’ll continue to do with UEP property if they do get it back after the ruling by the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals.

    BTW, didn’t the 10th Circuit Court issue a Stay Order on Judge Benson’s ruling on Friday? And then the arsonists burned the books on Saturday? Wouldn’t that be in direct violation of the 10th Circuit Court’s order?

    I wonder if they know about this little bonfire escapade?

  12. Thought this link might interest someone – free copy of Fanny Stenhouse’s book which was an expose of 19th Century Mormon polygamy and her experiences living in polygamy“Fanny+Stenhouse+A+Lady’s+Life”

  13. Thanks S, and the Bennion article was riveting.

  14. The thousands of books were not the only things of value that were in that building. An apostate had some very expensive doors sitting in there (his doors, not doors hanging in the building that would be part of UEP property) and they were removed by the burglars too.

    I think the police were called when a couple of apostate guys went to the schoolhouse to rescue the doors from being added to the bonfire.

    Interesting that an eye-witness saw flames so high from the book pyre and said they were higher than the rooftops. Supposedly, it was these flames above the rooftops that alerted someone that there was a fire burning there and the apostate went to save his doors.

    The Colorado City Fire Department and the Colorado City Police Department are located only a couple of blocks from the old schoolhouse building. Wouldn’t they have seen the flames flaring above the rooftops?

    Are the apostates the only people if town not blinded by a bonfire shooting flames taller than the rooftops.

    Sure makes you go hmmmmm.

  15. Here is another book which I doubt would be included in the new library, but nevertheless of interest – Prof Todd Compton’s “In Sacred Loneliness : The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith” which contains excerpts from the diaries of Joseph Smith’s plural wives

    See excerpts on Amazon – I am currently reading it

  16. In this episode of Polygamy : What Love is This ? Doris Hanson interviews ex Mormon fundamentalist Janis Hutchinson

  17. The schoolhouse where the books were burned are not at “the old school house” down the street from the fire department. The building is actually one that Orval Johnson’s family built to school their children not long back. Undoubtedly, they believe their rights supercede those of wisan’s aquaintance.

  18. Orval Johnson’s family had five years to step forward, pay a small fee, and get a legal lease agreement. I’m betting no one threw them out of that building, either, but it was abandoned and not in use. That gives them absolutely no right to destroy someone else’s property like that.

  19. I’d like to know how a non knows that the Johnson’s were taking their property back, and I’m sure the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office would also.

  20. See what I mean, Fred?

  21. I saw someone comment that there was video of the burning, anyone gotta link?


  22. Granny, what are you talking about?

  23. Don’t worry Granny, I have everything under control

  24. This is the link to the book burn video but it’s marked private. It’s says copywrite by Roman Bateman.

  25. Please reread my comment. I don’t know anything about the johnsons personally. Nor did I state that they did or did not have a right here. I was just clearing up the misunderstanding between two seperate buildings that were being confused one with the other and a possible reason for the TRAGIC event last weekend.

  26. Ooops – Is this movie out of Sons of Perdition? It looks like it was uploaded 04/18/2011.

  27. where is the link ?

  28. How do you know it wasn’t the right building then a non?

  29. The log building (johnson’s) is the site where the fire residue is located.

  30. I’m curious, as one would be, who put on the new locks after it was learned that the apostate’s good doors stored in the building had been stolen. AFTER.

  31. How many Qu’rans were in there?

  32. @Fred – you think I didn’t know that? Heh. Where is that turnip truck …

  33. goshdurn that video’s gone private?

  34. Have you seen that video Granny?

  35. I thought the log building was the old schoolhouse.

  36. No, PT, the log building in the news story pictures is not “the” old school house. It was “an” old school house.

  37. No, it went private before I could see it.

  38. Maybe the book burning video is now private because it is evidence in a criminal case involving burglary, vandalism, arson, theft and possible trespassing.

    Look what Judge Dee Benson allowed to happen!

    FU Judge Benson!

  39. Fred, you’re my hero!!!

  40. a non, how far from the Fire Dept. is the Orval Johnson schoolhouse located?

  41. I know Benson’s done wrong but maybe he has something in his poke, something he meant to do right by? Sure is hard to tell by the way he’s behaved.

  42. Benson meant to do exactly what he did. He’s the former law partner of Rod Parker and talked about in Warren Jeffs’ dictations.

  43. This may be of interest:

  44. Pt. Where is he talked about in the dictations. What was said?

  45. Betty, the fact that Wikipedia is not a credible source has nothing to do with it being a dot com. It is simply not a credible source.

  46. Concur with HHG – Can someone post a link to the part of the dictations where Warren Jeffs speaks of or speaks with Parker ?

  47. Anonymous. I know that. I was being sarcastic about omfg’s advice to us on how to do online documentation.

    Actually wiki can be a fine source or a terrible one and it’s up to you to figure that out by checking the references.

  48. Thanks for the SLT link a non, things are really heating up.

  49. Neither does .org make it an authority.

  50. Kind of like anything else you read. I think it’s funny that people believe stuff that’s in print. There’s a lot of unsubstantiated opinion in print, you know? You still have a burden to examine what you read or hear and sift through to the truth.

  51. @Chaps, my guess would be zero.

  52. Agreed, a non. or dot gov or dot edu for that matter. College kids homework can be posted on an edu site.

  53. Wow a non @ 4:59….Your link was very eye opening.

    But I though there had been multiple court cases and lawsuits where the UEP cannot evict people from their homes unless the UEP pays the people equity?

    Also, If the trust land is controlled by an outside source, aren’t they banned from things like that (evicting others) because technically the land isn’t theirs?

    But I suppose that wouldn’t protect citizens if they were renting from Lyle…or other high ranking FLDS officials.

  54. When ICANN was first starting the World Wide Web, they came up with 5 domain name extensions – each one was supposed to correlate with the type of web site the business was in.

    .com was meant for commercial web sites
    .org was meant for non-profit organizations
    .net was meant for companies providing Internet service or related Net stuff
    .edu was meant for colleges and universities
    .gov was meant for the US Government and affiliates

    With the boom of the Internet, sometimes the appropriate domain name extension was not available, or the web master didn’t realize that ICANN preferred that they have a domain name with the extension in this preferred structure. So companies just grabbed whatever they wanted or could get.

    A few years ago, when they started running out of names using this naming convention, ICANN created more – .biz, .us, .tv, .name, .info, etc.

    It is not etched in stone that you have to use the proper domain name extension, but ICANN prefers it.

    The domain name extensions were NEVER meant to imply that one category was more “truthful” or “reliable” than another. It was just a way to try to categorize and organize the domains. It also made it easier to guess at a group’s name.

    AOL was one of the earlier companies who didn’t comply with this naming structure. Technically, they should have been instead of

    I hope you all enjoyed this crash course on Internet naming conventions.

  55. a non’s link @4:59 PM is just another fine example of the truly despicable group running amok in Colorado City. These are not men of God; this is not a religion; this is a group of control freaks who are just plain heartless.

    Good for Ruth Steed for standing by her man!

  56. Merely a tip of the iceberg. Just you wait ‘n’ see.

  57. The stay on any action by the 10th district says that no one currently has the legal power to evict anybody from UEP property. The whole thing is on ice. But I agree with Anonymous above, if the Jeffites win the legal battle and assume control, even temporarily, pending the original law suits, there’s going to be a blood bath, prossibly literally.

  58. prossibly. I made a new word!

  59. See, Alan Jeffs accused William E. of trespassing on land that Alan himself was trespassing on. Man are the brothers Jeffs a bunch of idiots.

  60. Betty is that kind of a shorthand word for they’ll “probably prosecute”?

    Hey I like it!

    prossibly – adj. They’ll prossibly those arsonists who burned all of those books last Saturday.

  61. books were moved and a lot found. The Deseret newspaper even quotes Medvecky as a source!!!

  62. Thanks for the information Betty. I wasn’t aware what the Jeffties were and were not allowed to do at this point with the whole land thing being up in the air.

    Any word on whether she owns the house or is renting? And will that make a difference?

  63. Well, actually in my example above I guess that would be a verb. See, it can be both a verb and an adjective.

    I know there are adverbs, but are the adjverbs?

    Betty, maybe you have created the first adjverb in the English language. Way to go!

  64. April 19, 2005 Page 182

    The text does not mention Benson by name. It could be him.

    Maybe Parker or the Uncle Sam Barlow should be asked under oath?

    Warren wrote…
    This is a judge that was formerly a lawyer in the Martineau firm, our lawyer firm. This judge offered to Rod Parker, when they met at lunch the other day, as a report from Uncle Sam, that he, Rod Parker, should just
    file some papers in behalf of the residents in Short Creek against this Mark Shurtleff request to change trustees. He said that in private to our lawyer Rod Parker, our former lawyer. I told the Bishop, “You tell Sam Barlow, ‘Do not give any answer.’ or he is not with us. ‘Do not tell the lawyers to go ahead with such a thing. If Rod Parker does that it is on his own responsibility. I
    answer them nothing as the Lord declared.

  65. Books found!


  66. Thanks anonymous – does look like there should be some testimony under oath by sam barlow and parker

    HOpe those who read this get the info to the 10th district for the 22 ruling

  67. Well the book saga begins.

    Hmm….Bill Medvecky, a Florida resident who said he donated books for the community library, said he was at first surprised to hear books had been burned. When he called various FLDS friends to ask why, he said they told him the community was receiving unsolicited packages without a return address, causing them concern. He said a decision was made to destroy the books.

    Medvecky said those in the FLDS faith he spoke with were also wary of any books being brought in from the “outside.”

    “It was not their property, but they didn’t want it in the community,” he said.

    Maybe the US Post Office needs to do an investigation?

  68. what did they think, they could just take them to the D.I. and nobody would notice a metric SH*TTON of books? a lot of which are probably brand new? that’s… interesting.

  69. The Eldorado newspaper this week that places all of the current judicial proceedings in a better context. For example the articles out in the SLT and Deseret fail to mention that Parker was the one to initially ask for intervention, or to make the connection of Dee to Parker’s law firm, or to bring in the disputed presidency,the timing of the trust funds return with respect to the disputed presidency. Maybe the other newspapers don’t think that any of that has anything to do with the issue of first amendment rights

  70. And how does one go about getting this information to the courts?

  71. Speaking of investigations any body know what is up with the material removed from the fire department and potential case against leadership there?

  72. This reporter has been hoodwinked by Bill Medvecky. If he ever donated any books, they were not for the MOHAVE COUNTY PUBLIC LIBRARY branch slated for Colorado City.

    If the FLDS were so eager to have a community library and even accepted $1500 in books from Bill Medvecky, then why did they fight against allowing the old Johnson schoolhouse being donated for the library? That was an issue that could not be agreed upon in the UEP “stand-down” in the fall of 2009.

    And why did Jake Barlow and Warren Johnson go to the September 7, 2010 Mohave County Board of Supervisors’ meeting in Kingman and threaten to sue Mohave County and the County Library District if the BOS approved the “Quit Claim Deed and in consideration of $10 from the United Effort Plan Trust for use as a public library providing library services in Colorado City, Arizona.”?

    Read the public minutes here –

    See agenda item #46 starting at the bottom of page 10

  73. “It was not their property, but they didn’t want it in the community,” he said.

    Then start a petition for craps sake! Don’t burn books illegally!

  74. but that would allow people to think for themselves, which would probably exercise their brains, which would be a bad thing. or something like that. these “petitions” they have been doing are little more than “sign your name on the line because we said so”

  75. Good point yehaaa. Kinda like the “raise your right hand or else we’ll evict you”

  76. Hi Yehaa6
    how is school going? Are you in finals?
    I will be in SLC from Sept to Dec this coming year doing research. Perhaps we could get coffee together some time.

  77. Does anyone know Bill Medvecky’s phone number? I think the deputy from the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office who is investigating the “book case” will want to talk with him and his FLDS buddies cited in that article.

  78. yeah, I am actually at the school cafeteria right now… super hyped because of an energy drink… yeah. doing Japanese homework, last chapter workbook for the semester, then I have a bunch of math, about 3 projects in different subjects and then 2 finals on May 2. it’s really busy and I’ve been having a hell of a time concentrating. haha. but life’s good, I’m doing well in school, and I’m feeling well.

    I would totally like to meet up for coffee or something.

  79. This is WONDERFUL news about the books! So the FLDS decided to steal them instead of burn all of them. That makes sense! Burning thousands of books can take SO long. Driving them out of town is SO much faster!

  80. I wish you A’s on everything yehaaa

  81. Thanks! I hope for A’s on everything too!

  82. yehaa6
    great! I have an email around somewhere that I will post that you can contact me with for next fall.
    Good luck on finals

  83. try 239-772-8702 to find Bill Medvecky.

  84. Good luck on your finals Yehaaa6. You are an inspiration.

  85. Hilarious. It just shows that the newspaper also is part of the fairy tale. Lah deee dah.

  86. I’m not sure who to inform about my adjverb. Maybe I should call the trib and see if it’s a slow news day.

  87. Call the Deseret News. If they can take quotes from mudpuppy then they surely have room to report a new word.

  88. Any ideas why the apostate’s doors in storage insertion comes before the new locks’ installations?

  89. What are you talking about Granny?

  90. So let me understand this – instead of burning the “measles infected” “contagious” books, (including medical textbooks), to “save their community” from an epidemic, they absconded with the “infectious material” – so obviously they had no fear of infection with measles virus as the thieves had to have prolonged, close contact with the books in question in order to transport said books out of town. What ignorance these liars display ! They must think we are stupid enough to believe these stories.

  91. I have the same question about the “apostate’s” doors.

    If there were books being shipped to Colorado City without return addresses per Bill Medvecky’s quote in the latest Deseret News article, then what about those doors that were stored in the building?

    Those expensive doors weren’t shipped to that building by outsiders; they were doors owned by local Colorado City residents (considered apostates by today’s standards – it changes daily) and put into that building by locals living in the Colorado City community.

    So, did the FLDS haul the apostates’ doors to the Cedar City Deseret Industries Thrift Store so that they could claim they came from outsiders (apostates of the FLDS)?

    All of these items (donated books and doors) were in the same building. All of these items (donated books and doors) were removed from the same building.

    What is the latest excuse by the FLDS and their apologists (Bill Medvecky being the latest) for removing the apostates’ doors?

    Is this Medvecky idiot going to claim next that he shipped doors from Florida to Utah?

  92. For clarification, I should have said “Is this Medvecky idiot going to claim next that he shipped doors from Florida to Colorado City, AZ”? instead of saying Utah.

  93. yehaaa6, I hope you know how much people on this blog like and admire you. We appreciate your input, but we mostly wish you well and encourage your success in your educational endeavor.

    WOW, learning to read, write and speak Japanese. That makes me feel like a lazy dumbass. You ROCK!

    Good luck with your end of the semester crunch; you can DO IT!

  94. Short Creek is an alice in wonder land world where the normal rules of property, etc do not apply. Also, the rules and who is in and who is out keep changing. It is worse than the USSR in the cold war days.

  95. Deseret Industries is part of the welfare division of the LDS church. The flds book stealers should have hauled the books to a landfill if they really wanted to get rid of them. When I drop stuff off at Good Will, they always ask if I want a receipt for tax purposes. Wonder if the book stealers got a receipt from DI?

  96. S @11:09 PM, yes it is beyond asinine! The latest FLDS claim is that someone (I guess soon to be exed due to exposure to the made-up outsider’s cooties) had to physically carry the “outsider’s” books donated to the future Colorado City PUBLIC library out of the building and then haul them 50+ miles and then “offload” them at the Cedar City, Utah LDS Deseret Industries Thrift Store.

    OH, but wait! First these “contaminated” books had to be “palletized” – ie stacked on 10 pallets and loaded on some truck(s) to transport to the LDS Deseret Industries Thrift Store in Cedar City 50 + miles from where they had been stored for several years in the old Johnson schoolhouse in Colorado City, Arizona.

    Gee, that would take a lot of time, effort and money to load these books on pallets and then to off-load them with a forklift at the Cedar City DI thrift store.

    And in the meantime, the people doing all of this would be exposed to this mysterious “infectious material” coating these books.

    It’s all just a bunch of BS. Those books didn’t have any cooties; this whole scenario is just beyond stupid and unbelievable.

  97. BYU: racist or righteous?!5791461

  98. DI is much more preferrable than a fire. Thanks to whoever moved the books!

  99. If those packages had no return address, they had a address of delivery.

    Who picked the books up from the post office?

    Something smells.

  100. BYU probably has elements of racism as well as elements of rightousness.

  101. I returned home at 8:30 p.m. I got a call from the Bishop that Tom Cox’s little eighteen month old boy, named Jerry, had just been run over by one of the other mothers. I told the Bishop to go ahead with a grave side funeral. Tom Cox came to see me in my office. I gave him words of comfort and encouragement that if the Lord wanted that boy to remain he would have protected the boy.

    The boy is a stepson, the son of Janice Jessop, formerly married to Alex Barlow. I gave Tom Cox words that he could voice at the funeral to his family and those listening. He said he was willing to stay on the project. I said, “No, you go back.

    Leave early Saturday morning, be there Sunday,
    and be back by Monday, help comfort and guide
    your family.”

    Warren Dictation May 27, 2005

    Was this ever investigated?

  102. a non, they were still stolen from where they belonged. Whoever took the books to DI is in trouble just like the idiots who burned the books.

  103. I’m assuming that you are joking Anon@8:46. The idiots in charge of the CCPD didn’t even notice a fire that was above the buildings.

  104. That little boy who was run over would be one of Merril’s grandsons. I wonder if Alex Barlow was ever told that his son had died from being run over by his wife’s new sister-wife.

  105. Over on the Tribune Still Walton wrote:

    “This eviction began with a requested interview by Lyle, who asked me my loyalty,” she wrote. “Upon my commitment to stay with my husband, an eviction was ordered by Lyle.”

    If her “commitment” is truly to her husband why is she still in Utah living in another mans house while her husband lives in Colorado?

    Then Medvecky responded:
    She lived in the house to take care of her elderly mother who has advanced Parkinson’s. Is that OK with you?

    That still doesn’t explain why Alan Jeffs summoned the MCSO and asked for William E. to be cited for trespass. Maybe it’s Alan who was doing the trespassing.

  106. Now I’m really confused. The SLT article does not say who arrested William E Jessop/Timpson.

    Anon@9:53 AM references the MCSO.

    Was it the MCSO – Mohave County Sheriff’s Office – or the CCPD – Colorado City Police Department?

  107. No one arrested Jessop/Timpson, he was issued a citation for trespass by the MCSO. The problem is that the MCSO weren’t given all the details.

  108. Lord of the Flys


    CrackCreek, USA

  109. PT. About the doors. This is simple.

    If the doors being missing was able to be confirmed then the doors were either not locked, or were under the same old locks.

    Later the doors had new locks. The lies were still being cooked.

    Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

    One thing at a time. That’s how we knew Joran van der Sloot was lying about Natalee Holloway, and that he, his father and his friends had already made up lies the same day they disappeared her, before her mother got to Aruba that night. You can’t tell a story-lie before you make it up. The polis helped cover that up and held the parents, searchers, in the parking lot while “they” got away from the vd Sloot place, so the suspects could pretend to return later.

  110. Yes I could have differentiated between the apostate’s fancy doors and the building’s doors but didn’t bother.

  111. Jedda brothers Lyle and? Being sought by az police in eviction case

  112. The apostate’s fancy doors are not the doors on the building. They were being stored in the building.

    There were locks on the outside doors that were changed by the FLDS so that the apostates couldn’t get inside the building.

  113. If Alan is living on the property where the eviction took place, he is squatting.

  114. Granny, doors that have not been installed don’t need locks.

  115. Yes. PT. Exactly so.

    So tell me, how was it learned that the apostate’s fancy doors were missing from inside, stolen?

    I’m helping you the best I can.


  116. (what would Einstein do?)

  117. One can see in the picture that not only are the “locked” doors not panes of clear glass allowing one to see through them to the inside, we’ve been told the windows are also blocked to vision.

    How is it known that the doors were gone, stolen? WHEN?

  118. I wish they hadn’t told me my IQ came out higher than Einsteins when I was a child. It might be better not to have known. But messing me around trying to place me in schools would have been difficult.

  119. Right, Betty. You’re catching on! Uninstalled doors don’t need locks.


    Apparently Lyle and Alan are being sought.

  121. Arizona police. Well, we know it wouldn’t be the Theocracy of Utah’s police. Or FLDS Colorado City, AZ religious police.

    So are they referring to County Sheriffs as police or is it AZ state cops? We’ve been trying to find out for a while now.

  122. I’d like to see Lyle & Alan’s mug shots!

  123. This whole routine was a big attempt at FLDS manipulation that’s backfired. Yanno?

  124. Mohave County Sheriff’s dept ain’t worth spit. With luck this needs to be done by Arizona state cops.

  125. So. Still no comments on the doors stored inside the “locked” building and what became of them but more importantly HOW AND WHEN WAS THE THEFT KNOWN since, or before, the locks on the building got changed?

    Is that too damn tough a question for simple minds?

  126. News reports indicate that the Mohave County Sheriff Dept is trying to serve papers for an injunction and protective order, so if found they will be served with papers, not arrested. They being Alan Jeffs & Lyle Jeffs.

    From article:

    “Mohave County Sheriff’s Sgt. Mike Hoggard in Arizona said that he is seeking to serve Alan Jeffs, 61, with a protective order, and Lyle Jeffs, 51, with an injunction against harassment.”

    Read entire article:

  127. toljaso. Not worth spit

  128. The $1,000 doors are gone. Burned or stolen.

    They are not in the building.

  129. Got pulled over by law enforcement this morning right in front of my kids’ school. Expired tags on my truck. Apparently I have been at large in this manner for almost 3 years. LE could not believe no one has noticed in all that time, and then, 3 hours later I got pulled over again for the same thing.

    And who knows what could happen during the rest of the day.

  130. Hope it gets better for you, 3C. Better get that taken care of before it gets more expensive!

  131. The cops are coming out of the woodwork – Wont say they are trying to make a quota or raise revenue, but there is SOME reason.

  132. Top of my list for tomorrow, Betty! Thanks.

  133. Gotcha granny.

  134. Stamp, maybe trying to catch those jeffs brothers to keep them safe from prosecution.

  135. You could have just said that in plain English. It’s a reasonable question. Don’t know the answer, the articles are not clear on that point.

  136. See, Anon 3:37 can get into the building or knows who can.

  137. Not enough information. Several possible explanations. No conclusion that access is ongoing. Y

  138. So this guy said doors that were stored inside the library are missing. But then we’re told so&so cannot get inside to see what’s left inside because the key no longer works. Must cause quite a giggle among FLDS.

    Liars lie.

  139. They certainly proved some outsiders are easily duped. But they’ve been doing it for decades.

  140. Imagine, Alan bluffing that he lived there to get the woman’s belongings thrown out, and Jessop cited as tresspassing when he himself was trespassing. No, call it lying. Euphemisms unnecessary.

  141. … this horsepucky is what FLDS do for entertainment.

  142. GrannyToad,
    The apostate’s doors that were stored in the schoolhouse building were removed on Saturday during the same time that the books were removed and the bonfire was lit.

    It is my understanding that someone saw the fire, knew the doors were in the building and called the door owner. He went there to rescue the doors because he was afraid they would be piled on the burning book bonfire.

    I don’t know if he saved his doors or not. I don’t know if they were dinged up, damaged or burned up. That is all I know about the apostate’s fancy doors.

    Isaac Wyler went to the schoolhouse building on Monday to access the damage done when the building was burglarized and vandalized. It was at that time that he found out that the windows had been boarded up and the locks changed on the building’s doors.

    I hope this adds some insight for you. It is the limit of my personal knowledge of the situation.

    I don’t mean to piss you off, but your posts seem to me to be a bit crabby today. Chill out will ya?

  143. Maybe the apostate owner should call the Cedar City DI and see if some expensive doors were taken there.

  144. I found out that the DI in Cedar City is not the only place where the stolen books were taken. Some of them were also taken to the Cedar City Public Library.

  145. Did the thief giving away the stolen material ask for or receive receips for the stuff?

  146. receipts sorry I don’t see well and fingers don’t always work that well

  147. The MCSO deputy investigating the arson and theft of the donated books collected for the Colorado City Library said he is not interested in speaking with Bill Medvecky.

    He read the Deseret News article where Medvecky was quoted and said that he sounded like a nut case, was not a credible witness, is just someone living in Florida and would not be able to add anything more to his investigation.

    He also said that Medvecky was probably just someone looking for attention from the media.

    This was all said by the deputy without any input or opinion from anyone to taint the officer’s perspective about Bill Medvecky. This was strictly this officer’s assessment of Bill Medvecky after he read the Deseret News article where they quoted him in that article.

  148. Heh. That deputy’s got Medvecky’s number for certain.

  149. Granny, I don’t know if the thieves asked for donation receipts for the stolen books. That would be really funny if they had.

    “Mr. DI manager, may I have a receipt for my income taxes for the donation of these 10 pallets of books please?”

    There was more than one person donating the stolen donated books to the DI. I would hope they all wouldn’t be THAT stupid to give their names to the DI just to get a tax receipt. But who knows?

    Hopefully the investigator will ask about that and ask about store surveillance tapes too.

    I am familiar with the phrase “re-gifting” but this was “re-donating”!

    Hey, you just can’t make this stuff up!

  150. There would be more than one person? How interesting.

  151. Larry Moe & Curly.

  152. The final chapter (conclusion) of John Llewellyn’s book, Mormon Polygamy : A Virus of the Mind

  153. I will say straight out that this book burning/theft etc. has made me more than crabby.

    I know how hard it is to get donations of any sort. I also know that Elain Tyler and staff has worked really hard to get the things they have in turn shared with those that truly needed it.

    To think that those books have been “sitting there” for this long is enough to have made me upset. But then top it all off with the deception that is being played out has me furious.

    A LOT of people cared enough to want to help. This was one way.

    I like Issac Wyler and I think putting him in the mix of things is wrong. I think the books were moved long before that fire and I am almost positive that the one who did it or knows about it is reading this board. They best fess up.

    This incident has and will make it hard for libraries in the future to get donations.

    Doing a DI review and they were asking 8-15 dollars for some of their books. Take that times tens of thousands of books.

  154. Like I said…people give you feedback, but you ignore it…..

  155. Way to go, Walton!

    To me it’s the teach a man to fish strategy, as well as feeding the soul. I don’t know which rates higher. Walton you and I both know the perp/s will not admit their wrongs, any more than confess their civil rights and human rights WRONGS.

    Right here in America.

  156. Books, even paperbacks, have gone real expensive.

  157. Betty if you were talking to me, your going to have to say straight out your talking to me and say it in a way I know what your talking about.

    I might be one of the few here who honestly doesn’t know who anyone is in real life or for that matter the message board world. The place that I normaly post – I was taught long ago not to ask who they were. If someone wanted me to know they told me.

    If anyone wanted to threaten me, call me names, tell me a secret they would have to call me by name. Otherwise I’ve read things here to be meant for everyone and anyone.

    GrannyToad- I am sure the “perps” won’t admit it here. But if I figured it out so have others. jmo

  158. GrannyToad I know that some books are a little spendy. But the books donated to places like the DI have “donated” them. The mark up is imo incredibly high for a place that is known to help those in times of need.

    Sometimes that book is the only thing that allows them to “escape” the tough times they are facing. For some that book or books is “their” only way out.

    I wish I could write. But I appreciate so much those that do and share.

    I hope Friday is a better day for all.

  159. Walton, you know who some of us are….

  160. I’ve shopped DI myself a time or few, Walton.

  161. can you shop on DI on the internet ? what types of goods do they sell ?

  162. Susan I swear they sell about anything but food. Clothing, furniture, kitchen items, yeah books, it’s a pretty decent ‘department store’ of gently used and other donated items. At least the ones I’ve been in. All good quality, no junk.

  163. I wouldn’t think there would be online sales of things but do not know. You don’t have to be LDS to shop there. I guess this is the site,11666,8064-1-4425-1,00.html

  164. I have never been to this store – I’ll check it out sometime when I’m out west….

  165. looks like the Catholic St. Vincent DePaul Charity Stores, in terms of the types of goods sold, the quality, and the mission statement.

  166. My step dau doesn’t go there either when she travels for our gov; I think she’s breaking up with the long distance thing with the LDS bf, too. I learned of it from my youngest dau when she was in college. You know college kids pinching pennies.

  167. Yes, much like that, Susan. I’ve never seen any tatty clothing or rundown stuff in one, but that’s long back now.

  168. Susan – until I had seen some things recently (last month or so) I wasn’t really sure if you were real. But I now know. And it made me feel good to know.

    But not everyone who posts are who they claim. And by no means am I saying that ANYONE should post their real information. But some have different intentions than that of what they claim here.

    About the DI- I’ve never been there. I’ve known some who have. In almost any town there is a place similar but on a much smaller scale. I found the info on the net about the prices they charged.

    I’ve have worked with the mentally and physically challenged and many many who have been in domestic violence situations. They don’t have the extra $ for such an expensive but needed treat.

    Here is the link:

    I didn’t mean to interupt anything. I just had to say my peace and I will continue to help the only way I know how. And that is by sharing the stories/ the links and word of mouth.

    and just a reminder to those that want to hint at threats etc. I am not buying into it any more. Your going to have to come straight out and say it. Other wise I will ignore any future “hints”.

    Do you guys remember Pam Black? and the words she shared in the film Banking on Heaven? ” I had such a thirst for knowledge” but they weren’t allowed the use of the books.

    And Ruth Cook? How so many people laughed at her and called her crazy? I don’t think Ruth was crazy. I think it was the world around her.

    I not only heard their pain. But I felt their pain. And for that I will keep posting and sharing.

    I wish you all a good night. and thanks.

  169. Personally, I think the prices are very high at the DI. The goods are donated and when I have shopped there, I have found many of the clothing soiled – not dirty, but stained.

    I once found some cheap silverware – they were items sold at Walmart where you could buy an 8-pack of forks for $1. The DI was selling these EXACT same loose forks for 25 cents apiece.

    Gee, I can buy them new for about 12 cents each or go to the DI and pay 25 cents for them used. HUH?

    Our local Catholic Thrift store sells items for about 75% less than the DI.

    Brand new sweaters cost 50 cents or a dollar. At the DI they cost 4 or 5 dollars.

    I am not knocking Deseret Industries. They serve a purpose and train and employee many people who can go on to get better jobs thanks to their experience from working at the DI.

    But, they tend to overprice goods that they have received for free through donations made to them.

    Maybe this is how they can earn income to help so many people far away from Utah and overseas such as after Hurricane Katrina, the earthquake in Haiti and the tsunami in Japan.

    Too bad they don’t send comparable help to the folks in need living in the southern part of their state around Hildale and Colorado City.

  170. DI stories

    Well I have been to a few. That Ripoff report is pretty telling, but its spun some.

    Prices are high on “collectibles” such as a rare set of FLDS books donated from the jail, that were worth thousands (it made the news)

    On that note, I would say a lot of the good stuff disappears somehow and the community doesnt ever get the chance to buy it much less see it. I dont know if it is being sold on ebay or goes out the back door, but many years ago the quality stuff disappeared.

    Oh there are glass cases for the good stuff, but that collection is generally a joke unless you like trinkets from Europe or other parts unknown/

    They dont charge tax in utah but do in idaho.

    Generally they will negotiate on items over two weeks in the store, date is on the tag.

    They force turn over of employees after a certain time. I suspect this is a consequence of good intentions to get other folks needing a skill a chance at a job. So, I cant fault them for that/

    buyer beware, many items donated – electronics etc – are just fine and some are donated for a reason, needing work, or just flat out broken. OH YEAH

    As noted if i didnt say already BUYER BEWARE

  171. Here is the story on the rare flds books. They may have been delivered for Jeffs but he couldnt have them because they were hardcover and the jail only allows softcover. Pretty funny!

    They think they are rare? LOL again, what are there, over a gazillion pages of evidence and I think that printing press in hildale can really crank them out! for only 4.75 too

  172. Oh another story.

    Nothing is funnier than seeing a brood of flds kids sneaking in a cartoon episode on the TV sets (they always do) only to be busted by dad!

    OK that one time, it wasnt funny

  173. How did it come to be known that the books from the proposed library had ended up at the Deseret store ? Did a Deseret employee call to make a report, or did someone who saw the books transported out of the library bldg call ?

  174. Did the donater smell like book smoke?

  175. HI Walton,
    I agree there are posters here who are not “real”. I “know” that I am real. I hope that you are real and that you continue to post and do the good that you do.

    I have not met S but based on her posts and the links she provides I “know” that she is real too. I greatly admire her and thank her.

  176. OK
    I am stumped – lots of undercurrents yesterday. What am I missing about the doors?

    If there were doors then they were moved/burned/stolen when the books were moved. The building locks were changed. Somebody who participated in the book burning then told somebody who told somebody who told the door owners that they had been moved/burned/stolen.

    What am I missing Einstein?

    Or… it is all made up: there were no doors, etc.

  177. Arizona authorities are acting to legally to put restraints on both Lyle Jeffs and Alan Jeffs concerning the eviction of Ruth Steed, one of William E. Jessops plural wives. She has formally complained of an illegal eviction and treatment of her personal property, seems the FLDS Churchmen may have initiated something that they will soon regret. Imagine the audacity of a plural wife seeking legal rights.

  178. O I could try to put this together for you while soaking up morning coffee. FLDS openly took several days over last weekend to load up pallets of books and whatever else was inside the library including the apostate’s doors. He’d been informed, according to the story, too late, but the building was what, wide open? Several pallet loads of the boxed books, does that mean pickups, did they use a loader, took the books from AZ to UT to “donate” the donated library materials. I think the bookburning event was on Saturday but the books were taken to UT on perhaps Fri or Sat, before the performance with flames higher than rooftops. Then on Monday the fed guy could try his old keys on the changed locks. Does that cover what we learned so far?

  179. and your point is?

  180. and why are you making everybody guess?

  181. Is there any kind of RICO or other fed charges about trucking stolen goods across state lines?

  182. Hi Granny,
    I am sorry, it WAS snarky and I do try not to be snarky. Thank you for grabbing me on it.

    I guess I still don’t “GET” it and I wish you would just tell me.


  183. Boyd Knudson is filing more papers in the FLDS leadership dispute. He claims this number and that number say this, but until those people are allowed to voice their opinion without fear of being evicted from their property and/or losing their families, it isn’t a valid vote.

  184. I too would like to know what you are trying to say without actually saying it Granny. Are you saying the doors didn’t disappear, weren’t ever there? That the books are a figment of our collective imagination? I agree with HHG, just say it for pete’s sake.

  185. IMO there’s really no point. It’s just not important.

  186. If the Rico and Mann act werent used so far with hustling children and property across state and intnentl lines I doubt they will do it for books.

    That would be like writing up Charles Manson for jaywalking.

  187. @Granny – he’s a fed?

  188. Never mind, Granny, I got it. Thought you meant CI.

  189. I dont think one guy loaded up all those books and burnt the whatevers by himself. Who all helped?

    Well there seems to be a lot of questions.

  190. The Warrenite’s made their point.

    They moved the awful apostate books and gave them away.

    They did burned books, some medical.

    They burned other items that might of been stored in the building or not, including the doors.

    The owner of the doors stored them in the building and knows from other means they are not there.

    The locks where changed and windows boarded up.

    “They’ are stupid, but dang they made their point. Burn books, disobey a court order of a judge who is on their side.

    Can anyone say “Here’s your sign”.

  191. Is boyd knudson an attorney?

  192. No Boyd Knudson isn’t an attorney. To the best of my knowledge, there are no attorneys among the FLDS members.

  193. Warren is not a Prophet

    REASON #1
    Jan. 14, 2004 page 176

    At 4:30 a.m. you laid back down. You said,
    “Why don’t people just repent? Why don’t they go unto the Lord and ask Him to show them where they can do better instead of coming against me because I have to correct them. If they only knew it, if they could only see that I am their best friend on earth, but they are too blinded by their own pride and selfishness.

    Ross Chatwin, he must leave that community. The Lord does not want him on UEP land.”

    Ross Chatwin WON LIFE ESTATE.

  194. Anonymous,
    What does “life estate” mean ?

  195. Even secret ballots are subjected to the worry of eternal damnation if you disagree. That’s a powerful force, and the problem I see is until people break that force and realize what they have done, they will still be nearly unanimous. Of course, a few “poker players” (those that have no testimony but haven’t been caught yet) would vote opposite, but I don’t think the “poker players” are large enough to make the vote that much different.

  196. Among FLDS it’s my understanding 8 year olds up “vote”, for their means and purposes.

    But FLDS burn books and deny civil rights in the 21st century.

  197. FLDS *may* have had a fed ally until they pulled all this childish stuff. Maybe they didn’t want the intervention, thinking they were doing better by stymying the State?

    Who knows.

    Ask Fred.

  198. A “Life Estate” means a person has the right to live in a house for the remainder of their “natural life”.

    I dont know if this is extended to his wife/s, I would like to think so.

    In light of all that has gone on, I would hope Ross and family get full title eventually (like everyone else).

  199. I’m agreeing with Anon about at 9:38 this morning. There is no point except to disrupt conversation and transfer attention to the speaker. If the point were to communicate, then communication would happen.

  200. THe house to which ross got a “life estate” was actually built by his brother, David. What happens when David returns and wants it back?? And what about David’s wife? Does she have any rights to the home??

  201. Rod Parker’s comment on the book burning:

    Rod Parker, a lawyer for some of the FLDS members, tells FOX 13 this is not what it appears to be.

    “Now this wasn’t a ritual book burning, it wasn’t a political statement, it wasn’t an attempt to get in anyone’s face,” said Parker. “It really was an attempt to try and clean up a problem. And I have been talking to the folks out there and sensed some genuine surprise that it was taken the way it was.”

  202. Story and video of the book burning,0,946307.story

  203. Good questions, a non. I think it’s whatever the whim of the leader is at the moment. Isn’t that the point?

  204. What problem can there be to clean up in a bunch of books that belong to someone else?

  205. A non, according to the Court David will be SOL. Ross filed for and got a Life Estate claim to the property. David will have to find new digs if he returns. Guess the old saying “you snooze, you looze.

  206. More details surface about the book burning. Without communication we probably wouldn’t have heard any more of the details. I am glad someone stepped forward with some info.,0,7222726.story

  207. Guess that solves the video mystery.

  208. Roman bateman should be investigated…

    Not saying he did it…

    Or even witnessed it…

    But he knows something. He got ahold of the video…someone gave it to him or he took it himself, and that counts for something.

  209. I would assume he’s already been interviewed.

  210. I hope DI truly gives the books away. For free. As they were given to them. jmo

  211. Oh to be a fly on the wall!

    Although, If it were Colorado City cops interviewing him I will lose all hope.

  212. Walton, is the DI allowed to do anything with the books considering its part of a criminal investigation?

  213. Roman Bateman came upon the burning as it was dying down. He’s not the one who set it. He’s not FLDS, but an apostate. DI had better not do anything with the books except return them since they were fraudulently given. I also heard that some were given to the Cedar City Library.

    Parker’s cover story is a piece of work.

  214. Ariel, that’s Marshall Roundy in the video looking at the burn pile. Kinda tough for his office to continue saying they don’t know anything about it.

  215. The books weren’t doing anyone any good sitting in a building untouched for how many years?

    If DI doesn’t want to truly give them away for free maybe those that hauled them there can take them to different Domestic Violence Shelters thru out the areas.

    The Indian Reservations.

    Nursing homes.

    Homeless shelters

    Foster Care programs.

    I am sure all those involved could find time to make sure these books get distributed the right way.


  216. Walton, those that hauled them there didn’t have the right to do anything with them. They don’t belong to DI anymore than they belonged to the FLDS. They belong to those who want to recreate a library in Colorado City.

  217. Was a building in the area going to be converted into a library? Or was one going to be built?

    Walton, I agree with you in part. I think if a building was going to be converted, it should have been done by now. What did they say, The drive started in 2008?

    But I think if a building was going to be built as a library I can understand why the books were sitting around. It takes time for a building to be planned, permits for it, money to build it, the actual construction ect. Also, and just guessing here, perhaps the people in charge of the drive wanted to open a full libabry? So they were storing them up waiting for a “grand opening” of sorts.

  218. I building was there for the library, it was opposed by some of the FLDS and that was the hold up.

  219. Anonymous @5:06 I thank you for the information! I do have a bit more hope now. And I don’t think his office can possibly deny knowing anything about it. It’s just how far deep into it they will go that remains to be seen.

  220. The FLDS don’t want the books.

    Do you know that the lowest paid job is being a server in a restraunt. Less than min. wage. They say their tips bring the wage up to min. Do you realize that there are many many young single mothers out there trying to support their families on that wage. The choice to buy groceries, a pair of shoes or medication come before the luxory of a book.

    A homeless person who is forced out of their home due to flooding, eviction for non payment, drugs or whatever finds peace in reading a book.

    An old lady down the street who can barely afford her property taxes will eat beans for a week and remember the days she use to belong to a neighborhood bookclub but can’t afford to buy a book.

    Books sitting in an empty building is doing no good. There are programs out there that can help when the building is built. I will help any which way I can.

    Books need to be read. not stored.

  221. The FLDS block or try to block anything and everything that is done to try to bring forth any sort of education. It is very sad to see people with less than an 8th grade education, may of whom are bright and intelligent, and would be great pursuing college degrees. Look at yehaaa6, he’s a perfect example. He’s in college and doing well. He was never allowed to finish high school, but he took and passed the GED with flying colors. These people need the opportunity to be educated. If after education they want to live like they are living, more power to them, but at least they will have had the right to choose at that point.

  222. Walton, the point is that the building is there ready to go if it weren’t for the blocking by the FLDS. It doesn’t matter that they don’t want a library. They aren’t the only members of the community. Others live there and they do want a library. The FLDS shouldn’t be allowed to win by fear and intimidation. It has happened all too often in the past and needs to be stopped.

  223. Maybe the head honchos. But I refuse to believe every FLDS person wanted absolutely zero to do with the books. I refuse to believe not one soul out there besides the drivers wanted that library.

    But yes! Books need to be read! Maybe they could have done their own little distribution and lending system without an offical building? But then again perhaps not….Maybe too many books would get “lost” that way….

    Regardless, the whole situation was tragic. I don’t believe, read or stored, wanted or not, a book should be burned. Unless you’re fighting frostbite or something then it’s acceptable…

  224. To whom did the books belong? It doesn’t really matter what the best use of property is, if it isn’t yours to begin with. From what I understand, the books were the property of a woman or her organization that was trying to build a library. She was not FLDS. Did I miss something in reading the articles? I do not recall reading that anyone gave the books to the FLDS in the first place.

  225. I wonder if a large bus could be donated for conversion to a mobile library, then the issue of land ownership would not be important.

  226. Hey! There’s a thought! Ahhh….such fond memories of the elementary school book mobile…

  227. I’ve been involved in building, or remodeling until we were ready to go, a very small town’s very first public library. A country town of a size that doubled every schoolday during K-12 school hours. Storing donated books and materials for 1 year + is not something to snark at.

    Thank you all who are telling parts, more of the story. That is all I had asked for, I had asked readers to think, it could not have been all that simple, it was blatant sabotage.

  228. ? icy sidewalk on some posts, of course those are gone now.

    —– – – – Admin

  229. Dang when I began reading at the library we had to walk, rubber tires were still rationed. No bookmobiles until after things got caught up.

  230. The Spectrum has a really good article explaining some things.

  231. Love your stories of tire rationing. Lets remember who is burning books, or getting them the heck out of the community, ok Grannytoad?

    – Admin

  232. I too loved the bookmobile. It’s a wonderful thought. Of course the bookmobile I remember was more the size of a Winnebago, but hey, maybe it could be done.

    It still doesn’t settle the problem of the stolen property and/or book burning.

  233. It can yes take more than a year, it took us several to get our open, and that wasn’t but 10 years ago. Some of you folks don’t know what it’s like out past the sidewalks, past the city buses and taxis. Here and now. Today.

  234. @Walton — who out in short creek do you want books given to for free? Are they allowed to have books?

  235. Basically I’m fairly certain that’s why it was wanted to RE-ESTABLISH a free library for folks out at short creek. Read, return, share!

  236. Way past your limit this week GT.

    Ok to post, will release if you can play nice.. …Thanks.

    — Admin

  237. Actually the person trying to get a FREE library going, isn’t she CP, not FLDS?

  238. Here are a couple of good links that might shed some light on the library issue.

    The FLDS don’t want a library. Those that have left the FLDS or have moved back and attend the SAFETY NET meetings could possibly set up a library where the SAFETY NET meetings are held?

    Just a thought.

    I think it was written some where that the building that housed the book was at one time intended for a business. or did they squash that idea?

  239. I think the mobile bus is a great idea. [Ya think the Baptists have an extra bus to loan/sell?] Unfortunately, there will always be someone to screw up any idea of getting a library in town. For some, the saying “Ignorance is bliss”, reallly believe it!

  240. I don’t know the law in Utah, but here, if I have allowed someone to occupy my property, I cannot just thow their stuff out, destroy it or give it away with out due process. Eviction notices, that sort of thing. Even a room mate without a written lease.

  241. Ben has an updated story. I like Ben and I really like Issac Wyler.,0,5281666.story

  242. Isn’t it amazing that Rod Parker doesn’t mention Mudpuppy’s theory of measles at all. Guess that sometimes Parker can spot the crap being spread. Sure wish he could spot it all the time. He needs to quit enabling the lawlessness to continue.

  243. I wonder how Lyle evicting Ruth Steed because she supported her husband is going to play in the 10th Circuit!!!

  244. Was she paying rent there? I thought Alan Jeffs kicked her out.

  245. Do any of them pay rent? According to the protective order, Alan kicked her out on the orders of Lyle after she expressed her support for her husband.

  246. Normal folks would think if the books and library are not FLDS-owned they’d keep their hands off but it’s not their way, whether it’s an airplane or mill or silo. Or sacred cow. Or a man’s hard work plowing and planting, or his horse. Makes no differnce to that crime family living in our USA.

  247. Newspaper articles state that she was living in the basement of Alan Jeffs home. Alan Jeffs is the one that evicted her. According to the paper because she expressed her loyalty to William E. Jessop.

    But the name on the occupancy agreement states has Daniel Williams listed. Didn’t say anything about Jeffs nor did it say anything about Steed. It just listed Daniel Williams.

    I wonder if he is related to Stephanie Williams Colgrove?

    So in all reality if neither Jeffs or Steed were on the list maybe they both could have been evicted??? Not sure how that whole thing is set up. If it was considered rental property it would have to pass some sort of inspections I would think.

    The articles also stated that she was one of two wives of William E. Jessop living there. The other one must not have gotten kicked out?

  248. I’m thinking that only apostates and heathens or whatever they call non-FLDS pay rent or mortgages down on short creek. That king thing, UEP.

    So far.

  249. Correct, Walton. Jeffs lied out his kazoo. On a legal paper mind ya.

    Liars lie, thieves steal.

  250. Where’s John Wayne when ya need him?

  251. New article on today’s arguments Dee vs Lindberg

  252. The other one was her sister Rose. According to the Orders in place by the Court, no one was to be evicted.

  253. Does anyone suppose Parker expected anyone to believe his fairytale? Who could be genuinely surprised that sane people don’t buy that barf, I kinda wonder what FLDS paid him for it.

  254. Why are the FLDS acting as though they have control over the land back? Do they know something we don’t?

  255. They’re betting on Dee Benson, Ariel! Be careful what you wish for, right?

  256. @ Walton – I swear I’m real, at least as I perceive it. I’ve been very open, I hope not too open, makes me nervous. I remember the night you said you found out some were real and I was glad to hear about it. I don’t know any but one’s identity either. I haven’t been here very long except for observing. I like it here.

  257. 3c, people like you make me like it here! 🙂 So helpful with all your wise words and observations…You’ve helped me dip my toes into a culture shock and survive when I went in shrieking “I”M GUNNA DIE!!!”

    Well, I guess if I were in their positions, I’d bet on Benson too. After all, they’ve got the Lord on their side and a federal judge and probably more money too. I’d be feeling pretty confident too.

  258. Ariel, I’m overwhelmed. I’m here for you too and glad you’re part of our little (perhaps dysfunctional) family!

  259. Mot sure of what is meant by real vs. non-real posters. However, I am real. A Midwest LDS male.

  260. I was thinking about the logic of the first amendment appeal based on a religious right to communally hold property.

    If that is the major argument then it will surely fail because the trust was taken over not because they were holding property communally but because they were not protecting the assets for the beneficiaries. It was rewritten too include all beneficiaries, not just those warren jeff’s cronies because there was no procedure which specified who beneficiaries were.

    Based on my (flawed?) logic the flds and Dee have no legs to stand on

  261. yes, the original trust is flawed in several major ways. Including no specifics about who is a beneficiary, no specifics about how someone is ousted or added to that list, no specifics on who decides what the just wants and needs are, reporting and annual meetings, etc. All things that are quite normal in most trust documents. And then there’s the little problem of dedicating it to an illegal practice on the first page.

  262. And that’s without considering the lack of defense that was Parker’s first motion that started all this

  263. Thanks Walton for the link, good to see you posting again!

    I got a kick out of Parkers comments to Fox13

    “”This wasn’t a ritual book burning, it wasn’t a political statement,” Parker told Fox 13. “It wasn’t an attempt to get in anyone’s face. It really was an attempt to try to clean up a problem. Talking to folks out there, sensed some genuine surprise that it was taken the way it was.””


    Anyone who has studyed LDS history knows that the LDS got in some trouble in Nauvoo il, for a printing press burning, and then too, it took them by surprise as to the communities reaction.

    This and the eviction have the perfect timing of Parkers motions to the 10th circuit – I’m sure it will raise some eyebrows there.

    Once again they have performed as their own worst enemy.

  264. And YES it was a political statement (we have control again! We think! DOH!?)

    And YES it was done in the face of everyone trying to make a real life for the poor people trapped out there!

    And NO it wasnt to clean up any problem! Otherwise they would have told the fiduciary long ago – or another way to look at it, the “problem” was a public “Library” which is what?


    Oh, we’ve seen plenty of evil, Warren is all about that!

    Good thing Texas is “cleaning up THAT problem” – Something UT and AZ havent been able to do over the years.

  265. Stamp you still make me smile.

    There seems to be an awful lot of mixed messages being sent out by the AG assistant Paul Murphy. imo He called this a Hate Crime but I can’t find anywhere that he called the “mock book burning” in Cedar City a Hate Crime.

    I also find it interesting that the books that were found at the DI on pallets and shrinkwrapped.

    In one of the videos that Ben posted (he has 2) Shields mentioned that the person entered a locked building and was there without authorization of Bruce Wisan.

    If I remember right that one of the rules when Bruce took over is that people living in the homes had to sign agreements and list who was living in the homes.

    So was Alan Jeffs authorized to live in the home that Daniel Williams signed the agreement? Or was Ruth? Rose?

    Just wondering.

    And does William E. Jessop himself have a home or homes in these two towns as well as Colorado?

  266. I am also very curious if Ruth had called the “SAFETY NET” for any type of assistance. Maybe it was them that actually called the cops.

    But how much can they really do? Wouldn’t this be a civil matter landlord vs tenant?

    Crazy crazy stuff.

  267. Thanks Walton!

    IRT the hate crime aspect, I kinda think that is going away as it was found they didnt “destroy” all the books but just were trying to get rid of them.

    The plan is going to backfire, but not as bad as if they had actually burned ALL of them. Still, it was in violation of the order by the 10th circuit – AND Dee Bensons ruling too!

    As far as kicking out miss Steed, THAT is huge too, as both sides are supposed to stand down per Benson AND the 10th.

    They do play musical chairs there, and regardless of signed lease or not, in a court of law, they should go back to the “Stand Down” order.

    So simply throwing her or anyone else out on the street against their will without using the proper legal channels, regardless of what paperwork is involved, can lead to legal action.

    As seen, the attempt to throw Ross Chatwin out was fought and he won a Life Estate.

    (Oh – this perturbs the FLDS leaders to no end – losing their grip on complete domination over the people – I think it was one of the straws that made Warrens mind snap)

  268. Walton

    IT IS crazy! Thats why the property needs to go to the beneficiaries!

    So they are no longer hostage to the whims of whomever stole position that day.

    At that point if they want to bow down and give up all their rights again, there would be no sympathy given when they are further abused.

  269. Hey. Evictions have been happening all along in spite of any ‘legal channels.’ Someone is handled – told to leave because they are no longer a member in good standing – in the case of men their wives and children are redistributed – and they quietly go away.

    So is anyone the wiser, huh? Legal action only comes into play if people like Ruth Steed or Chatwin make a fuss by calling in the legal eagles. It even works if a whole family ‘respectfully declines.’

    FLDS is now cast in a position where resistance may happen and the risk of injunctions against them. Can’t keep that secret.

    At this point, a court deciding just who is a beneficiary is going to be a crux unless a more benevolent leader emerges.

  270. Walton, I am confused. You said “There seems to be an awful lot of mixed messages being sent out by the AG assistant Paul Murphy. imo He called this a Hate Crime but I can’t find anywhere that he called the “mock book burning” in Cedar City a Hate Crime.”

    I don’t know anything about a “mock book burning” in Cedar City. What is that all about?

    I am also confused by your suggestion that the DI give those stolen books that they received away to other agencies? Those stolen books do not belong to the DI, some belong to Stefanie Colgrove and some belong to the HOPE Organization. Just because someone stole they from a building in Colorado City and transported they to the DI in Cedar City (and allegedly other places in Utah) does not make them the property of DI and allow them to give them away. The stolen property has to be returned to the rightful owners.

    The only reason that the books were being “stored” is because the FLDS and the Utah AG’ office opposed the Special Fiduciary’s offer to quit claim the building housing the books to Mohave County for $10 for it to become a public community library. That was way back in 2009 and everything involving the library has been in limbo since then.

    Yes, it’s a shame to let thousands of books just sit in a building not being read and enjoyed, but sadly the state of affairs regarding the UEP and the waring sides has put the library on hold.

  271. According to the Wisan’s records, Alan Jeffs was squatting. No idea where Daniel Williams is, now or then. As a squatter, Alan had no authority to evict anyone, much less have someone cited for trespass, but then again, what does Marshall Roundy know about the law. NOTHING!!!

  272. There is already a book mobile that goes to Colorado City on a monthly basis.

    Stefanie Colgrove has a dream to have a real public library in the community. There used to be one, but it was closed years ago. I wonder what happened to THOSE library books? Were they burned? Were they given to DI? Anybody know what happened to them?

  273. Ahhh the days, that’s how USSR operated. Even their maps were lies, if they needed true maps they bought American. And that’s a true story.

  274. Stamp! Loved the allusion to the Expositor burning.

  275. Anon

    “Yes, it’s a shame to let thousands of books just sit in a building not being read and enjoyed, but sadly the state of affairs regarding the UEP and the waring sides has put the library on hold.”


    Unfortunately, not only are the books put on hold – but the people who might be enjoying them.

  276. TC

    Well, it just struck me as being quite similar. Of course the community reaction at that time was much more severe.

  277. I tend to think the old library books ended up where the other ones did, in one of those DI stores.

    Probably followed an old MO.

  278. Less severe, possibly only because most of us no longer sport our holsters at all times.

  279. HA HA

    That was funny! kinda true. Were you in the area, what was it five – seven years or so ago about the time of the Barlow exings?

    I heard the cops were expecting a shootout but perhaps the LE prescence prevented that.

    Plus, the FLDS have blatantly gotten away with so much for so long in that area, it seems impossible to get anyone riled it seems, even the abuse of children in that area is barely worried about.

    Oh, they give lip service, but Texas puts them in handcuffs. BIG difference!

  280. Here is a link concerning the mock bookburning.

    Another thing that puzzles me is why did they burn only some books? Called ahead to the libraries to see if they were accepting donations. Rented a Uhaul? And did they shrink wrap them after placing them on pallets?


  281. If Alan Jeffs was squatting would that mean that Rose and Ruth were also squatting? or did they have permission from Bruce to live there?

    I think Bruce Wisan runs a tight ship and I think he and his staff have worked extremely hard trying to do right.

    Did William Edson TIMPSON Jessop have a home or homes in the towns? and in Colorado?

  282. Walton

    That mock burning looks like it was just an exhibition and they used misprints and damaged books.

    Still, I wonder what their point was, it reads like “Book burnings are nasty, this is what it looks like”, so they get an F in PR.

    As far as the leases go, they have been playing musical beds right under Wisans nose, which means if you move around like that you might have a roof one night yet no legal standing in the future.

    I think “Steamboat Willie” was a former Bishop of the Crick, and as such likely had a house. Since he has been gone, I suppose he had a house in CO too. But who knows now.

  283. @ Stamp – wasn’t there, but surprising there was no violence.

    I just hope nobody puts a posse together over the current property disputes or exings.

  284. TC

    I feel the same way – its sad there is such dissention out there.

    Just another reason to give the homes to the people IMO.

  285. If the FLDS leadership had any smarts at all, they could have easily gotten they’re land and community back by providing an apostate housing compound in Phoenix or Vegas so that the dissenters could find jobs and establish roots outside of Short Creek, allowing both parties to move on with their lives.

  286. In one of the videos it was mentioned that the kids have been going inside to “party” etc. Not sure if that is true or not but maybe some of the kids need some type of outlet.

    If that was indeed the case, I am thinking some type of community service would help them better understand the BIG PICTURE. The kids sure get blamed a lot in that area for some adults way of thinking. imo

    Here is one example of “misunderstanding” that could feed into such behaviour. Or have people confused as to things being labled “hate crimes”.

  287. This link doesn’t have anything to do with the FLDS but look see what other kids and people (mixed religions) are doing to help those that are really homeless.

    If any of those guys get kicked out of their homes there are places like the John Taylor house that could be an option.

  288. Anon they’re ignorant thugs, crime families

  289. So which of their kids had keys to the library?

  290. They were breaking in and reading library books!

    The outrage!

  291. “…the kids need some type of outlet” Are you kidding?
    You’re right the kids get blamed for adults’ way of thinking. But some kind of community service right there in their town? Get real! It’s already been tried.

    Walton, I admire you for having compassionate intentions but what you’re saying is a nice dream. The best way is for youth to leave that place. To do it with any measure of trust and safety is by linking up with responsible others (which is hard enough!) who are already out and taking some direction toward programs or volunteers who are ready to help. There’s little likelihood the deeply isolated ones can manage a direct link to reasonable services.

    Internet use is pretty much GONE!

  292. I have the answer to what happened to the old library.

    Disclaimer for those who wish to argue…..details are VERY hazy, and I admit I only have a vague picture. I’m counting on you good people to fill in the information where I am wrong. But hopefully this helps a bit. Thanks.

    John Johnson used to be a truck driver. Then he retired and bought a bunch of books, Trying to start a bookstore/library in the Short Creek area. For some reasons (and I can only speculate for the same reasons the books were burned recently) the bookstore/library didn’t do fare so well in the community. John went out of bussiness and donated the books to various places including a large number to the schools of Colorado City.

    Enter Alvin Barlow. The super intendent of the school district at the time (maybe he still is, I don’t know). Alvin then commisioned Curtis Barlow and another man who’s name escapes me right now to sell the books on ebay. I hypothisize he didn’t want the “outside” books in town and didn’t mind pocketing the cash that came with it.

    John Johnson now lives in Canada (I thinnk Bountiful) as a truck driver I have been told.

    Now maybe I’m totally wrong and this was only for a bookstore and not a library….But I only relay the information I have been told.

  293. Ariel, there was a library until Warren Jeffs ordered it closed. As to what happened to the books at that time, I am unsure. Alvin Barlow is out. He would be Curtis Barlow’s father, I think. He was in the first group exed and while his brother Dan has sucked up enough to be let back in, I haven’t heard the same about Alvin.

  294. Alvin is Curtis’ uncle. Alma Barlow is Curtis’ father. I made the same mistake but claimed his father was Dan! Alma and Dan and Alvin are all back in as far as I know. Alvin actually housed Curtis’ wife and children for a while when he (Curtis) got kicked out.

  295. Of course, nothing is as simple as it seems…Alvin didn’t exactly just take in his nephews family purely out of goodwill. You see Alvin had been reassigned Curtis’ wifes mother. (helluva family tree for those of you who are following!) I believe Curtis’ wife was placed there by the bishop to “keep her sweet”. It didn’t work I’m happy to say.

  296. Well I guess we’re back to the mystery of the missing library! Anyone else with info?

  297. it sounds about right. I have seen a lot of those books, in the old CCUSD North auditorium, which Curtis and his brother were operating out of for a while. about the John Johnson part, I don’t know. but I do know there were a lot of books in that North Aud. for a while. I think they sold as many of the books they could on eBay, but the rest, I have no idea. these are from the former Colorado City public library.

  298. Yeeha

    Thats pretty funny kids would break in there and go through books huh?

    That made me laugh! But still its sad, I hope they get a library within the year.

  299. CCUSD? As in Colorado City School District? They sold books out of the school? Oh the irony! Thanks for the addintional info tho 🙂 It’s people like you that help us paint a clear picture and understand a bit more.

  300. I didn’t realize that Alma was back in. That’s interesting.

  301. I know where the closed CC public school is, caddy corner from the church. I know where the old Hildale Elementary school is (which was in the same School district as St. Georges Bloomington Elementary, which I attended as a child in back in the ’80s). I know where the CC branch of Mohave community college is.

    Where is/are the other current and former Short Creek public school(s)? Where are the Private FLDS priesthood schools? One is operated out of the old Hildale Elementary, no? Is the Masada Charter school in CPark a private school exclusively for the second warders?

  302. I can’t 100% say that Alma is back in. But since he doesn’t live where he used to…or with whom he used to…I think it’s safe to say he went back…. I can’t say too much more without revealing more names and whatnot.

  303. Ariel said this on April 23, 2011 at 2:47 PM — and it’s funny as heck. Thanks Ariel!

  304. Anon @ 3:45, El Cap is across the highway, over kinda behind Merry Wives.

  305. Ariel, if Alma is back in, I’m sure that Warren will wake up on the wrong side of the jail cell one day and ex him again. Hopefully he won’t get too comfortable in his Crick digs.

  306. So El Capitan is in Utah? Thats kinda weird since it is the only school that serves the CCUSD district, as far as I know. The CCUSD is an Arizona school district. The Hildale side was always considered part of the Washington, CO UT school district. They attended post elementary in CC because it was closer and the 2 States agreed that it would be so. Things change, I guess. I know that Bakersfield, AZ now has its own school and no longer has to be bussed to the Virgin Valley SD in Mesquite, NV.

  307. Never mind, I Google earthed it and it is in AZ, just barely though.

  308. Anon @5:44 PM I think you meant Beaver Dam, AZ

  309. When I Google Earthed the Merry Wives Cafe, it put it up in Hurricane.

  310. Yes, I did mean Beaver Dam, thank you.

    PT, google earth has it wrong for the merry wives cafe. it is in the NW Corner of the intersection of Rout 59 and Uzona Avenue in Hildale. It is literally the last business on the right before you cross into AZ. Google Earth has it incorrectly marked as “Basic Service and Repair.” It is in a duplex with the border store, which has a Sinclair gas station that operates out of it, none of which is marked. If you look 1 block south and 2 blocks west, that must be El Cap with the twin baseball diamonds, although it isn’t marked either which is strange, considering it is a public school.

  311. Is the north/ south cross street that intersects Arizona Ave. at El Cap really also called Arizona Ave? 2 streets with the same name that intersect each other? That must be the nexus of the universe. How do they instruct the visiting basketball teams to get there?

    “Yeah it’s at the corner of Arizona Ave. and Arizona Ave, you can’t miss it.”


  312. can someone comment on the content of the curriculum in the FLDS schools ? Thanks

  313. Here is an audio of Warrens Home economics class.

  314. Here’s the rest of it.

  315. some curriculum

  316. How necessary was all that?

  317. Very much so! lol

  318. S, as far as I know there are no more actual organized schools, everyone homeschools. and while it includes the Warren Jeffs tapes, there’s also, from what my mother has told me, some basic phonics, math and earth science. my mom has had a really hard time teaching some of the kids who are 8-10 and didn’t get their first grade learning when they should have, and now they just don’t want to do it anymore. my younger brothers and sisters are willing to learn, though. I just hope they keep being interested in it.

  319. what about the high school curriculum ?

  320. It was at least as necessary as all of your nonsense posts these days, granny; you say as you try to fill up the entire thread by yourself.

    S asked.

    Don’t shoot the messenger.

  321. S…I don’t think there is such a thing as high school there, but I’ll let someone more in the know answer fer sure.

  322. S, this lecture was given to all girls grades 5-10. I doubt that there is any high school beyond grade 10, going by the Mormon Hills/ Bountiful BC example.

  323. Google earth is fabulous but don’t ever trust it locally. We all know the Merry Wives straddles the AZ/UT border and is many miles from hurricane.

  324. sorry, didn’t mean to shoot the messenger (?)

  325. A little pre-Easter message for FLDS attorney Rodney Parker, Mary Batchelor of Principle Voices of Polygamy and Lindsey Whitehurst with the Salt Lake Tribune.

    You possibly are either:

    – Stupid

    – Ignorant of the facts

    – Fail to tell the truth

    – Have been living with your head in the sand

    – Have a pro-polygamy/FLDS agenda to distort the facts (this comment is mostly because of Mary Bachelor’s personal agenda), although it might also pertain to Rodney Parker’s constant “BS dancing” and “lawyerese lingo”)

    – Be too new to know WTF has been happening for MANY years (this is for Lindsey Whitehurst)

    – Have personally (or through your law firm) received MEGA bucks for over a decade to say asinine things like this while living with your head in the sand (this is for Rodney Parker)

    … or even more combinations of all of the above.

    Love Fred

    Warning (per HHG’s recent request) this newspaper article might make you gag and upchuck your breakfast. Only read on a “strong” stomach:

  326. Yehaaa6, keep those siblings in line about learning. It’s really important.

  327. I agree totally with you Fred. Lindsay Whitehurst seems to be taking up where Brooke Adams left off and Rod Parker seems to be able to flip flop with the best gymnastics has to offer. I wonder if he even has a clue who his client is. There are now 2 FLDS factions and try as he might, I don’t think he can represent both of them since they have different agendas. As for Mary Bachelor, words fail me. She is the biggest apologist for the FLDS that has come down the pike in a long, long time.

  328. on High School, I know that some of the girls were being allowed to get a GED, a few of my sisters did, but my dad asked the FLDS people about it first, so not everyone does. for the most part, I’d guess education ends at 8th grade.

  329. Wow, Fred’s a font tonight. Keep it comin’!

  330. GrannyToad I missed whatever was posted today because I was busy and not tuned into this blog.

    I have absolutely no idea what you are referencing about Kibbles and Fred. If you are talking about me, then I am clueless about what you mean. I don’t ever recall “demanding” anything of you – or why I would.

    I do have to admit that I don’t always follow what you’re talking about when you reference me.

    Anyway, no hard feelings, but sometimes you confuse even me when you post about me.

    And then I just get one of those “WTF is GrannyToad talking about” moments.

    Happy Easter,
    Love, Fred

  331. Hey Anon @1:35 AM I think you should take up the “punctuation usage” matter with Jerry Seinfeld.

    The “Elaine” character on that TV show LOVED exclamation points. She almost got fired because of it because her boss questioned her use of the !.

    But she didn’t get fired, and the show went on.

    So what exactly is your point?

  332. Jerry Seinfeld dated one of my friends in college – he is not funny without very good writers.

  333. What did you expect from Mary Batchelor – she is incapable of telling the truth. Mary is a woman who as a second wife drove her sister wife Vicky Prunty out of their plural marriage with Gary Batchelor, but Mary accuses Vicky of adultery. Ever since Vicky exited their plural marriage, Mary has lived monogamously with her husband Gary, but Mary keeps talking about wanting to give her husband a second wife, and no one ever appears. I wonder why.
    Hypocrite much, Mary ????

  334. An interesting article by a psychiatrist on “The First Wife Syndrome” in polygamy.

  335. Sorry, here is a link to “The First Wife Syndrome” in polygamy,33

  336. Mary is just one more in a long line of FLDS apologists.

  337. Three theories of the book burning:

    Marshall Roundy says that it was boys who did it and it is being investigated.

    Rod Parker says it was a man cleaning out an old building.

    Mudpuppy says it was all of the FLDS trying to rid the town of a measles threat.

    Who do you believe?

    Me, I don’t believe any. I think it was a Saturday work project. They gathered up some young men, had them load all the books into some sort of a truck where they then put them on pallets and shrink wrapped them and sent them off.

  338. Anon, I agree. Except for details. We know that some of the books were donated by Barnes and Noble. It would not surprise me if they were shrink wrapped on delivery and just moved as is.

  339. IMO, Mary Batchelor has little credibility when she makes statements on flds issues. She is not a member of the flds, she does not live in Short Creek, she is not a practicing polygamist. Her opinions are really no better than mine or any other outsider.

  340. First of all, I don’t think it’s a secret that Vicky Prunty moved Chris Nemelka into her home while still married, and oops, got divorced after she became his “plural wife”. Chris Nemelka was and is a predator, who preyed on her and on the Batchelors for many years. After convincing Vicky to become his plural wife, Nemelka decided he was only playing with polygamy for “sex”. This, according to Vicky herself. She thought she would be happier as a second or third wife. Chris Nemelka, who posits himself as a prophet or an atheist, give or take the day or the person he is trying to deceive, deserves a mention on this site as a genuine predator who preys on anyone who gives him an ear. Here’s a link: (A Brave Ex Wife Speaks Out)

  341. Thanks for the linke, Who’sonfirst?

  342. Here are a few more: City Weekly article about Ida Smith and her dedication to Chris Nemelka who she believes is the reincarnated Hyrum Smith:

    Letter from Chris Nemelka’s follower attorney to the LDS Church:

    True Believer, City Weekly article by Ben Fulton about Christine Marie’s experience with Nemelka:

  343. In the Salt Lake Tribune article link to above it says

    Parker said there was a rush to judgment after the supposed book burning became public.

    “They jump to the most evil conclusions without bothering to find out the truth,” he said. “It’s unfair.”

    I would like to ask Mr. Rodney Parker what his BS comment would be regarding William E. Timpson/Jessop and the “evil” and “unfair” treatment of him and his evicted wife Ruth Steed.

    Has Rod Parker made a public statement about this?

  344. Yes, I already knew about Chris Nemelka but I still think Mary Batchelor is a home wrecker and a hypocrite.

  345. Keepomg Sweet: Fully agree with your comment about Mary Batchelor.

  346. Small thing @Anonymous on April 24, 2011 at 7:46 AM haven’t we heard there was more than one vehicle loaded?

  347. I haven’t heard about more than one vehicle, but I would suspect so given the amount of books taken away. Although it could be a semi-truck. Abram Jeffs has a semi that he’s not using at the moment.

  348. Parker said there was a rush to judgment after the supposed book burning became public.

    “They jump to the most evil conclusions without bothering to find out the truth,” he said. “It’s unfair.”

    Mr. Parker, by “THEY” do you mean the people who aren’t brainwashed by the FLDS’ lies?

  349. I haven’t heard about more than one vehicle either. I’ve only heard about a U-Haul transporting the books to the numerous places.

    Gee, doesn’t a U-Haul have to be rented? And don’t they require a deposit and identification to rent it?

  350. Is there a uhaul rental down there at the crik? I can’t recall.

  351. You all read right on this site from a local that more than one vehicle carted off the stolen items. Or coulda shoulda woulda

  352. If I am correct, it was 1 Uhaul that went to the Cedar City Library first and then took what the Library wouldn’t take to DI. I guess they thought the books would immediately get mixed in with the other Library books and be “lost” forever.

    Oops. Me thinks Lyle and company didn’t think this one through too clearly.

  353. Is there anything they think through clearly?

    Even their attorney cant keep his story straight, or believable.

  354. It would be oh so much more helpful to their cause if the attorney and marshall could at least have close to the same story.

  355. Only those two places, over the state line into Utah? None on to St George?

  356. I think the timing of all this has put a burr under Parker’s saddle.

    Listen to that jackass bray!

  357. Polygamy is incompatible with Canadian democracy – an editorial from the Globe and Mail

  358. St. George has been mentioned, but so far I haven’t heard of anything being found there. Maybe they wouldn’t accept stolen books.

  359. So are “The Coming Crisis” and “Prepare for the Day of Visitation” books? What are the names of the other books that are unique to the FLDS that are not used by the LDS and/or COC? Do they have their own version of D&C with FLDS revelations, or do they use the pre-1890 edition? I know that the COC version has way more revelations in it than the LDS version (and omits 132, of coarse).


  360. Fabulous question, Anon 6:56, I was going to try to answer, but I think I should leave this one to those with more expertise.

  361. Oh crap, I can’t stop myself from answering a little bit: There is only one D&C, only one BOM, and only one pearl of great price, plus the discourses. There is no difference, all the teachings of JS & BY etc. I may be a bit jaded from spending three days hearing family pretend that polygamy has nothing to do with Mormonism and pretending that our cousins don’t currently practice the principle.

  362. mudpucky’s latest is hard to follow, I think he’s saying that Shurtleff’s involved by sending books into Arizona to deprogram FLDS. Read over at the Trib.

  363. In Light and Truth?

  364. What happened to Medvecky’s measles theory ?

  365. I used to think my family put the dys in dysfunctional, but we don’t hold a candle to some of the plyg families.

  366. Hey NocAnon, welcome back. Haven’t seen you around in a while.

    Mudpuppy’s measles theory was shot down by Parker and also apparently by the CCPD.

  367. Granny, which story is Mudpuppy waxing poetic in over at the Trib? They’ve got several going.

  368. Never mind Granny, I found it.

  369. Hey, does anyone from the Crick know if Lyle and/or Alan showed up for Sunday go to meeting?

  370. I would have no idea but I don’t believe they’ll be clapped in jail as they should be for their civil rights WRONGS

  371. Ah, PT, there is no “g” at the end of “Sunday go to meetin’.”

  372. Oops, my bad!!! But did they show up?

  373. Wish I knew.

  374. Yeah, I saw that PT. Happy belated Easter.

  375. Mosiah 29

    [21] And behold, now I say unto you, ye cannot dethrone an iniquitous king save it be through much contention, and the shedding of much blood.

    [22] For behold, he has his friends in iniquity, and he keepeth his guards about him; and he teareth up the laws of those who have reigned in righteousness before him; and he trampleth under his feet the commandments of God;

    [23] And he enacteth laws, and sendeth them forth among his people, yea, laws after the manner of his own wickedness; and whosoever doth not obey his laws he causeth to be destroyed; and whosoever doth rebel against him he will send his armies against them to war, and if he can he will destroy them; and thus an unrighteous king doth pervert the ways of all righteousness.

  376. Bloodshed? EH?

  377. B of M, are you referring to King Warren Jeffs ?

  378. A quote from the mysterious, vanishing “Golden Plates” at 8:56 am.

  379. I used to read that babble as a non-rx sleep aid. Worked every time.

  380. I need my rose colored glasses to read it.

  381. I had to read it with some rock while I hid my head in a hat

  382. A rather ominous find. Smacks of Warren indeed. BINGO!

  383. Some folks have important things to say. 😉

  384. Amy Kirk is a little PO’d over the term “Pringle Compound.” There is no such thing as a “Pringle Compound.”

  385. Pringle Poacher Car and the Hitchrail cause me to want to go to Pringle. Maybe it’s genetic, grandpa died at Mullan ID, son lives at ND. I need to get me to those places.

  386. I came across an article about yet another fascinating scientific discovery contradicting the Mormon religion. DNA evidence suggests that the Blacks are the only race that is 100% Human. The rest of us, on average, are 97.5% human and 2.5% Neanderthal.

    “Any human whose ancestral group developed outside Africa has a little Neanderthal in them – between 1 and 4 per cent of their genome, Pääbo’s team estimates. In other words, humans and Neanderthals had sex and had hybrid offspring. A small amount of that genetic mingling survives in “non-Africans” today: Neanderthals didn’t live in Africa, which is why sub-Saharan African populations have no trace of Neanderthal DNA.”

    “‘It must have been at least 45,000 years ago,’ says David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School who was involved in the project. That’s because all non-Africans – be they from France, China or Papua New Guinea – share the same amount of Neanderthal DNA, suggesting that interbreeding occurred before those populations split. The timing makes the Middle East the likeliest place where humans leaving Africa and resident Neanderthals did the deed.”

    Here is a video of a professor giving a lecture about the discovery:

    So all this time, it turns out that blacks should have been skeptical of mixing their pure human bloodlines with ours.

    Put that in your pouch and chew it, Brigham Young.

  387. John Llewellyn has released Appendix 3 of his new book “Mormon Polygamy : A Virus of the Mind.” This chapter concerns itself with Warren Jeffs.

  388. Thanks BIB, just read Llewellyn’s appendix on WSJ. It was very insightful – I have not yet read the other chapters, but one little detail bugged me:

    “Under the law, a child of fourteen cannot give consent. Therefore, all the prosecution has to do is prove penetration, age, some resistance, and he is history…”

    If a fourteen year old cannot give consent, why would prosecutors need to show there was any resistance at all? A fourteen year old doesn’t need to say no. The adult needs to keep it in his pants.

  389. I completely agree, 3rd cousin. That’s what totally infuriates me about people who attack the virtue of Elissa Wall or say that she was lying about her resistance. IT DOESN”T MATTER: SHE WAS 14!!!!

  390. I’m right there with ya Betty and 3C. A 14 year old can’t give consent and neither can a barely 12 year old. Those dirty old men and stupid young men need to have their eyes opened that the law is the law and no amount of religion is going to change that fact.

  391. I have to admit I feel for Allen Steed just a tiny bit due to his age, the pressures on him from the profit, and his youthful indoctrination. But I feel his sentence was far too light.

  392. Yeah, no kidding. When it comes to minors, you need to keep your genes in your jeans.

  393. It’s said of sexual molestors of children there is seldom just one.

  394. TC, if you haven’t already done so, read the complete text of “Virus of the Mind” on John’s blog and consider reading Llewellyn’s other books. “Polygamy’s Rape of Rachael Strong” is a particularly good book of his regarding the Harmston group that you might want to consider purchasing. Llewellyn is a former member of the AUB who left the group in the wake of the Virginia Hill case. He is an experienced criminal investigator who reports on the increased incidence of incest he observed in Mormon polygamous groups.

  395. I remember something about Owen Allred of AUB around 2000 agreeing to a policy of disallowing underage marriage. Can anybody speak to whether he kept his word on that? Marrying at 18 is not much better for teenagers raised in the cloistered fundamentalist world, but I’d like to know if it was more than lip service.

  396. Thanks, BIB, I shall read both of those.

  397. Supposedly the AUB are faithful to that promise, TC – and they also report pedophiles and incest when the hierarchy comes to know of it.

    Here is a link to the Rachael Strong story on Amazon :

  398. Thanks. I have read Polygamy Under Attack and a couple of his other works. Very well done I thought.

  399. Here is a link to a video interview with John Llewellyn conducted by Doris Hanson wherein his involvement in the Rachael Strong investigation was discussed.

  400. Coercive religious polygyny in Ontario

  401. Victorian author JH Beadle shocked his readers in the 1880s by recounting that Brigham Young did not, though not practiced by himself, hold a taboo against incest. Many Victorians at the time had a hard time grasping the full effects of practicing polygamy to highlight the other taboo, namely incest, was morally acceptable. Today’s polygamists involved in the practice of incest can trace this thinking back to Brigham Young.

  402. CAJim,

    Did BY make any statements which indicate that he found incest to be acceptable ?

  403. “Resolved Question »

    Did Mormon Pres. Brigham Young really encourage INCEST among LDS Mormon members?


    Why would Brigham say the world will think WHAT AN AWFUL THING IT IS if he just meant brothers and sisters in the faith or in humanity? The whole world marries their brothers and sisters in the faith or humanity.

    Mormon Prophet Brigham Young on October 8, 1854.


    “In our marriage relations here we are marrying our brothers, and our sisters.”

    “The whole world will think what an awful thing it is. ( LDS Church Archives, Brigham Young Papers, Ms d 1234, ff marked: Addresses-1854, July – Oct., p.20) ”

    “In our marriage relations here we are marrying our brothers, and our sisters.” (p.23) Read this from his speech at General Conference at:…

    3 years ago

  404. BIB

    Any idea on when BC will make a ruling? TIA

  405. In the current LDS world male members of the church are called brothers and female members are called siaters. Therefore, I might greet Harry Jones as “Brother Jones, how are you today? or Sister Smith, good to see you here today.” Any admonitions to marry brothers and sisters in the current church is meant as encouraging marriage within the faith.
    I am not personally aware of sibling brother-sister marriage being encouraged by BY or any other LDS leaders,

  406. Is there a list anywhere showing which families are assumed to be within the YFZ camp now?

  407. Stamp,
    I will check on the status of Judge Bauman’s decision and rulings with my Canadian contacts.

  408. Hey 3C, is this one of yours?

    Birth Date: 12/21/80
    Address : 965 N Carling St, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    23:34:00 04/25/11 Stewart, L -H HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    53-3-227 DL DENIED-NON DRUG/AL CM WCJ3 50.00 50.00
    41-6a-526 ALCOHOL- OPEN CONTAIN CM WCJ3 100.00 100.00
    41-6a-1702 DRIVING ON SIDEWALK IN WCJ3 90.00 90.00
    41-6a-601 SPEED CM WCJ3 115.00 115.00
    41-6a-530 ALCOHOL- RESTRICT DRI BM WCJ3 1615.00 1615.00
    41-6a-518.2 IGNITION INTERLOCK VI BM WCJ3 555.00 555.00
    41-6a-502 DUI-1st,2nd OFFENSE BM WCJ3 1615.00 1615.00

  409. Is Jason Glade Williams a grandson of Jerald Ray Williams? If so, which son does he come from?

  410. Thanks BIB!

    Say, Alma really racked it up this time, whooooeeee.

    Those pesky ignition interlocks!

  411. hmmm bail for driving on the sidewalk etc etc etc runs 4200 or so.

  412. I’ve made jokes but never actually known of anyone ticketed for driving on sidewalks.

  413. If you don’t like my driving, stay off the sidewalks!

  414. I’ve actually seen triple-plus parking in San Francisco that included sidewalk parking, once the ‘inside’ vehicle had 2 wheels down, 2 on the building’s outside wall.

  415. My point in mentioning Brigham Young’s incest taboo is that todays more orthodox believers are aware of this 8 October, 1854 address and believe that BY position is of record. Ross LeBaron, Jr. was investigated by complaints from his own sons against him and one of his daughters. I was sharing that there is a historical basis or justification for his actions.

  416. Stamp,

    I was informed that it will be several months before Justice Bauman renders an opinion in the matter of the Canadian Polygamy Reference Case.

  417. Wow – aint that funny! Thats about long enough for him to forget all the testimony.

  418. Take a cab next time, cousin Alma! @PT – what was the arrest location?

  419. hcpd

    Isnt that down the hill in Hurrrican?

  420. Has anyone read this recently released book about Mormon fundamentalism in Mexico ?

  421. BIB, saw that released and am excited to read it. My aunts and uncles helped settle Colonia Dublan and Colonia Juarez, and the Calls are (of course!) relatives. Janet Bennion’s “Desert Patriarchy” is also a great contemporary study of the Mexican communities.

  422. TC, I have read “Desert Patriarchy” and “Women of Principle” as well.

  423. On 04/20/2011 Texas United States District Court Judge Sim Lake granted another uncontested continuance in the murder trial of Jacqueline Tarsa LeBaron. The new date is 05/31/2011 at 1:00pm. She is the daughter of Ervil Morrell LeBaron and Lorna Gay Chynoweth.

  424. Please continue on General Discussion #54

    Thanks – Admin

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