General Discussion #52

Continued from General Discussion #51

~ by FLDS TEXAS on April 6, 2011.

479 Responses to “General Discussion #52”

  1. About the UEP Trust, it’s the Arizona AG who said no way, the Utah AG wants to give it back with stipulations about what can be done with property that was leased out by Wisan and that sort of stuff.

    I personally think if Lyle and company try to kick any apostate out, they need to go to court and sue for the right to live on their property. It’s worked in the past.

  2. I love Bruce “in sync” Wisan’s comment:

    “It’s difficult to give something to the COP when no one is quite sure who the COP is.”

  3. That was pretty good ET.

  4. I really question whether I will live long enough to see the final resolution of the UEP trust. It may turn out to be like the case Charles Dickes wrote about. The case was finally resolved when it was determined that the legalities had totally depleted the trust in question.

  5. Knudson makes reference in his affidavit to “rules” and “laws” of the church, so I would imagine that there are some bylaws written somewhere which might govern voting processes. Can a current or past member comment ?

    More DLSA inconsistency. If Knudson files saying 4000 people voted unanimously to sustain Warren and denoune William as apostate, they may as well accept Wilform Woodruf and join the Mormon Church. After all, I was taught that John and Lorin Wooley held the keys privately independent of church, and it didn’t matter that the people sustained Wilford Woodruf; he was not the one man. Now, they decide the keyholder must be sustained.

  6. Where did DLSA come from? Must have had my fingers off by one. That is FLDS.

  7. Cement – do you think that 4000 voting members represents the majority of those eligible to vote in Colorado City / Hildale?

  8. I think it is way more than those legally eligible to vote in a US election.

  9. The aspect of the 4000 people from the standing FLDS Church voting is yet another attempt to deny and ignore the rightful claims of apostate FLDS whom have had their rights recognized by the Courts, already. Costantly revising the UEP Trust beneficiary list to reflect the lates ‘handling’ act by the prophet lends itself to another legal claim of beneficiaries defending their rights. The UEP Trust IMHO should have allowed some precondition in the trust that any beneficiary could be liqidated for s sum written into the trust, say $50,000Dollars and your share reverts to the trust. The revising of the beneficiary list and paying zero economic concession(s) has the appearance of a fraud.

    Right now the outcome looks headed toward a Third Ward in Short Creek.

  10. The big picture here that raises the view that forming a third-party trust that incorporates FLDS Church tenet language leaves the Legal Court System in harms way in defending a claim of ‘Seperation of Church and State’. A charge brought , no less by Rodney Parker, the original author of the UEP Trust wording in the first place. This might insure Rodney and his law firm a rationale to overturn any Court ruling but it has created a ‘Catch 22’ that asserts seperation of government from church dealings. I think that the FLDS attorney should be estopped from claiming seperation of ‘Church and State’ when he authored the verbage that would create said involvement, in the first place.

  11. Is the 3rd ward Willie and William?

  12. Cement – do you think that 4000 voting members represents the majority of those eligible to vote in Colorado City / Hildale?

    by this I mean do you think that 4000 voters represents the majority of those over the age of 8 who are eligible to vote regarding FLDS church matters in Colorado City ?

  13. Estimates of the number of FLDS members in Colorado City are in the range of 10,000 people. I am not sure how many of the 10,000 are over the age of 8 and are therefore eligible to vote for Warren Jeffs in a religious election, but I think that the number of individuals over age 8 might be greater than 4000.

  14. But doesn’t the 10,000 estimate include Second Ward / Centennial Park?

  15. Remember all those people arguing that the teen birth rates are just sky high in the general population and that somehow excuses the FLDS taking wives aged 12-16? Well, the teen birth rate nationwide is now the lowest ever since records were first taken 70 years ago!

  16. I agree with 3rd Cousin. Those are numbers from the census for those two towns. I think the numbers reported for the FLDS in general are wildly inflated, and include a much higher percentage of children than normal populations.

  17. I don’t know. Can someone who currently lives there comment?
    I don’t think 4000 represents the majority of persons > age 8 in the FLDS – but someone who lives there now needs to clarify.

  18. Were FLDS from other communities outside Colorado City also polled by Knudson ?

  19. This wikipedia reference says that there are 10,000 total in the western US


  21. I have read that the religious worship in Hildale, after it had lapsed for a period of time, was by invitation only and door monitors kept out unwanted apostates, ‘handled’ brethren, etc. So now this gleaned group speaks for the new ‘Chosen Warrenites’ by Lyle Jeffs design. William E. Jessop was Lyle’s predecessor bishop and was liked and held in high regard before he was ‘handled’ and sent to worship from afar. Rodney Parker likes the latest ruling because it will allow the religious practice of the ‘Chosen Warrenites’ and ignores those,”… caste into outter darkness”.

  22. Were FLDS from other communities outside Colorado City also polled by Knudson ?

    Numbers are meaningless… there is no such thing as ‘voting’ among FLDS. If there were 4,000 FLDS who they claimed ‘assented’ to something in a meeting place, who is going to ‘dissent’ in front of the congregation and its ‘leaders’ and put themselves at risk of losing their salvation/home/family? The affidavit is as ridiculous as its claim.

    This whole polling Chautauqua is just smoke and mirrors, IMO – the agenda being to stonewall, obstruct, evade and generally snort, “I’ve got bigger cojones (er, more nerve) than you do, so back off.”

    We’re looking at two bulls in a china shop with lots of product (innocent people) getting knocked off the shelves and probably broken. (If I were artistic, I’d draw a political cartoon!)

    On the other hand, it remains to be seen if a court of law would accept another petition filled with 4,000 signatures to support the affidavit, which Lyle has time to produce… and then for all in intents and purposes that fragile china is still in the same precarious position. Thou shalt have NO PRIVACY!!! Assent or be broken!!

  23. Where did you read that, Cajim? I’d like to see the context.

  24. What’s the population count at R17?

  25. I would love to see one of your political cartoons, ET. You are of course on target with your observations.
    Is there a meeting place in the area which they have access to which can accommodate 4000 people ?

  26. Yes.

  27. i don’t believe that Wikipedia would have better numbers for the FLDS than we do.

  28. Are there reliable source documents ? if so, could someone post the data sources ?

  29. Motion to sustain, followed by “…all those in favor will signify it by raising their right hands; all opposed, by the same sign.”

    Has anyone EVER, mainstream of fundy, old or young, male or female, faithful or apostate, EVER even heard a rumor of somebody signifying “opposed?”

    Rubber stamp.

  30. I have seen a couple of cases in local LDS wards where one person indicated that they were opposed to a particular individual being called to a certain position. In those cases a note was taken of whom did not consent to the action and the meeting went on. I have heard that the person opposing was later asked in private why he did not consent to the action.

  31. That’s good to know, chemist. Those were brave souls. I can’t remember how old we were when we started participating in the sustaining. Is it after baptism?

  32. The baptism and confirmation at age 8 is what makes you a member of the church so that would be a logical age for you to start sustaining. However, I have no reference to cite on this.

  33. Chemist, I looked up the information on LDS church website and found following:

    25And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

    26For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized.

    27And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.

    28And they shall also ateach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord.

    Above from D&C 68, D&C Outlines church docterines & beliefs IMO.

    Once a person is baptised & confrimed, they have the right to vote known as sustaining, I am told.

  34. In 2003 there were 7653 members total in Short Creek. That’s from infant up to the oldest adults. If only those over 8 vote then it would seem that anyone who was born in 2003 would be over 8 and able to vote.

  35. And that number gathered in 2003 was before the mass exodus to YFZ and the other places of refuge, right?

  36. BiB – here is a number for Colorado City (Mohave County, AZ) regarding registered voters

    “In Colorado City, there were 1,252 Republicans and 760 Independents but only 48 registered Democrats out of 2,072 registered voters.”

    This does not count the registered voters in Hildale (Washington County, UT)

    Here is the article from Feb. 23, 2011 –

    County has 118,251 registered voters

    Mohave Daily News

  37. So let me get this straight. Posters frequently name names of underage victims and alleged victims of sexual assault on this blog, but my link to the signature pages of Warrens proclamation gets deleted?


    I am in the process of extracting the census data, (numbers, no names) but it will probably take me several weeks at least because it is going to be a ton of work.

  38. New book out “Modern Polygamy in the United States: Historical, cultural and Legal Issues”

    By Cardell Jacobson, Lara Burton

    It is a compilation of articles by many different authors – most from Utah.

    In the first part about the contributors, it says Brooke Adams is a writer for the Salt Lake Tribune who is cited by most of the writers in this book. Though she does not have a chapter in the book, we give a special thanks to her for all of the coverage she has provided about the FLDS and the raid in Texas.

    For those of you not familiar with Kenneth Driggs, he is a lawyer in Atlanta and an FLDS apologist. He testified in Texas after the raid and told the courts what wonderful people the FLDS are. Marianne Watson is the 3rd member of Principle Voices of Polygamy along with Anne Wilde and Mary Batchelor. I wonder what her attitude towards polygamy is?

    Gee, I wonder if the FLDS will come across in this book as a wonderful bunch of peace-loving, old-timey conservatives just trying to live their religion?

    Third Cousin, your family is mentioned in chapter 1 by Martha Sonntag Bradley. Her piece compares the 1953 Short Creek raid to the 2008 YFZ raid. On page 7 in her chapter, it mentions arrest warrants for cohabitation had been issued for Price Johnson, Carling Spencer and Sylvia Allred Spencer.

    Click on the book cover on the left where is says “Click to look inside”.

  39. Heah Anonymous@6:07 PM why don’t you try reposting your link, I read no admin. comment here that your link was deleted. We overwhelmingly don’t publish underage or victims names here and your statement is not factual. Call us on it the next time you see it and see if the name doesn’t get removed.

  40. Thanks CAJim, I’ll give it another shot. Here it is:

    We will not post the link to the signatures. ADMIN

    For the record, I believe any information made public on the internet is fair game. It doesn’t bother me that people are posting names, but if my link was deleted because it lists the names of minors, it would point to some misplaced priorities in my opinion when Stamp gets to post (and I’m not picking on Stamp. Again, it doesn’t bother me personally) this:



    > [SHE IS NOT HAPPY!!!!!]
    > ugly
    > > and in 40′s} at 14 or 15
    > > STEED .

    for instance.

    just sayin’

  41. Sorry, that was me, Anon 6:07. I’m not sure where the “Cobra Commander” came from. Weird.

  42. The Proclamation signatures pages will not be posted.

    Also, that list posted by Cobra Commander is by and large incorrect. That’s what happens when someone posts what someone else says. I know for a fact that both of the daughters of Frank Jessop were over 18 when they married Rulon Jeffs. Also, Rulon didn’t marry a daughter of Heber Broadbent and Shanna Zitting was 19 when she married Rulon. Sarah Lucille Musser was 17 when she married Rulon Fischer, not 14. Roberta Mackert Johnson was 18 when she married the fat and ugly Palmer.

    All of these inaccuracies are probably the reason why the FBI tossed the list aside. They started going down it and found all the problems and chunked it feeling it was a waste of their time.

  43. The lawyer from Atlanta is a guy who testified for the FLDS at the hearing of Jason Williams and Suzanne Jessop Johnson regarding custody of their sons. He got totally discredited. I don’t specifically remember his testimony at the FLDS hearings, but I”m sure he was shot down there too.

  44. PT, I may be wrong.

    Rod Parker wanted to call Ken Driggs as an expert witness on the FLDS during the Rodney Holm trial, but the judge said no and only allowed his written summary to be read in court.

    He was listed as an expert witness for Warren’s case in Arizona, but that trial never came about.

    I thought he had gone to Texas after the raid to testify as an expert witness for the FLDS, but maybe not.

    I apologize if I misspoke.

  45. I don’t know who all testified in the Motion to Suppress hearing, he could have. I’m not sure.

  46. Sorry ADMIN.

    I realized shortly after I hastily reposted it that I should have given you a chance to respond before doing so.

    In doing that, I was completely out of line, and I assure you that I will not try to post it again in the future.

    This is your blog, of course, and I wholeheartedly respect your objection to the aforementioned list being posted.

    I will also be keeping my census results to myself, now that I know that the list is officially out of bounds.


    ANON 6:07

  47. Prophet Not Necessarily President of Church

    Perhaps it may make some of you stumble, were I to ask you a question — Does a man’s being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it? I answer, no!

    A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. Suffice it to say, that Joseph was the President of Church as long as he lived: the people chose to have it so.

    He always filled that responsible station, by the voice of the people.

    Can you find any revelation APPOINTING HIM THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH?

    The keys of the Priesthood were committed to Joseph, to build up the kingdom of God on the earth, and were not to be taken from him in time or in eternity; but when he was called to preside over the Church, it was by the voice of the people; though he held the keys of the Priesthood, INDEPENDENT of their voice.

    (J.D. 1:133 Brigham Young)

  48. Anon @ 6:07, posting any data you come up with using the signature pages is an entirely different matter from posting the signature pages themselves. The line was drawn because the FLDS had children as young as 8 years old sign those pages.

    Please feel free to post any conclusions you draw from the data, just refrain from posting a link to the pages themselves.

  49. Glad I read those pages earlier It’s still amazing to me than an 8yr old[or 9,10,11..etc] has a vote in anything!!

  50. Anon 6:17 – wow, major thanks for the head up on the book, I’ll get it as soon as its available. I don’t know that I ever would have known about the new book.

  51. third cousin, the book is available now via

  52. Thanks Anon for agreeing to review the census data.

  53. “I am in the process of extracting the census data, (numbers, no names) but it will probably take me several weeks at least because it is going to be a ton of work.”

    Anonymous said this on April 6, 2011 at 6:07 PM

    I too appreciate your effort to pursue such a project. I started doing it but have had to leave it alone for several days now because of other commitments. It is extremely time-consuming – in fact, grueling. Some of the data has been unreadable and it’s a little on the emotional side for me. Soooo many relatives!

  54. I”ve worked on it a few times myself, but it’s such a daunting task. I haven’t been able to stay with it. My hat’s off to you Anon @6:07 if you can get through it.

  55. Thanks guys. I used map trends in census data (GIS) and have a degree in it, so I am used to it. It is a pain, but it is also rewarding.

    The adult genders are easy because the males are noted as Elders. About 5% of the minors are either unreadable or have names like “Dana” or “Leslie” that could be male or female so I have to make an educated guess based on handwriting, adults with the same name, etc.

    As a side note, does anyone know if the name in (parenthesis) are the legal, or the priesthood name? I am also trying to compile a list of active surnames in the FLDS as well. Several of the last names from the original UEP documents in Ben Bistlines book seem to have been swept from the community over the years. Including those, I had previously counted over 100, but that number seems to be a bit lower now.

    I have only done about 60 pages so far, but I am consistently knocking out 10-20 per day. I am sure I will eventually take some days off, though, as I also work full time.

    ANON 6:07

  56. Anon, I can’t help you with the () Priesthood name thing, but I have to agree with you that FLDS names prominent 10 plus years ago are vanishing now.

    I am thinking of the names:

    Years ago I used to have a list of prominent Short Creek surnames. I’d have to look for it now, but these names just come to mind that have pretty much poofed.

    Today, it seems to be mostly Jessop, Jeffs, Steed and Barlow. I guess the names I mentioned are mostly Centennial Parkers now.

  57. I subscribe to the Eldorado newspaper online edition and this was reported.

    Contrary to previous reports, the document was only 478 pages long and contained 6,376 names, far fewer than originally believed.

  58. From what I saw the names in parenthesis are the legal name and the name written out is the priesthood name. That’s why there are lots of (Barlow) in the document. There were a lot of Barlows exed early on and their families were reassigned.

  59. A bit off topic, but question of if LDS Mormons can drink beverages containing caffeine. From newspaper article it appears they can as long as it’s not tea or coffee.

    Which raises the question, have heard the the FLDS drink coffee, tea and even booze. Since I have no reliable sources, do any ex-FLDS or active ones out there know, do the FLDS drink coffee, tea, booze etc.?

  60. from what I understand the FLDS can drink alcohol, tea, coffee because they take the Word of Wisdom as advice rather than a commandment

  61. The LDS made the WoW a mandatory health code in the 1940s, I believe. Any group that split off before that is highly unlikely to care: FLDS, RLDS, etc. (I imagine the Manti based TLC polygamist group still follows it, since it is a more recent split off.)

    My LDS uncle is a Diet Coke fanatic, and he is the first councilor to his bishop in a central Utah based LDS ward. He keeps saying he is going to quit drinking it, but his attempts to do so are futile. Abstaining from caffeinated beverages of the cold, non-brewed variety is not required, but doing so is almost like an added badge of honor if you can pull it off. Most can’t, it seems.

    I have a cousin who’s husband has in his possession an old photo of the SLC temple with spittoons in front of it. In the LDS published photos, the spittoons have been cropped out. The church wants to buy it from him, but he is already wealthy, and not willing to part with it. He has reached an agreement with them to not distribute it, unfortunately, so I cannot get my own copy of it.

  62. A famous account told by Elias Jackson ‘Lucky’ Baldwin, of San Francisco Baldwin Hotel fame, is that when he traveled out West on the Oregon Trail he brought a third wagon filled with bonded brandy and fine tea that he sold in Salt Lake City. He had to deal with Brigham Young’s brother, who purchased the entire wagonload of freight, at a fair price. The entire inventory was stored into Brigham’s pesonnel storage building. His profit covered his entire costs to outfit himself for his trek West. He was attacked two days later, West of the Salt Lake by supposed Paiute indians some with ‘farmer’ tans, along a cut-off route Brigham’s brother had recommended to him. Baldwin was wary of his dealings in Salt Lake and suspected that his recommended shortcut had been a ‘Gentile’ set-up. Always well equipped and prepared, ‘Lucky’ Baldwin had armed his wagon train with ample aide arms and repeating rifles, so the Paiute raiders were sucessfully dealt with by his party.

  63. Tonight on Polygamy : What Love Is This ? John Llewellyn will be interviewed on the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy. The broadcast is available on live streaming video, 10 pm Eastern, 9pm Central, 8 pm Mountain, and 7 pm Pacific time this evening.
    Here is the link to the streaming video for this evening.

  64. or use this link

  65. This is from a Wikepedia article on the LDS Word of Wisdom. Adherence to it was not required for a temple recommend until 1921.

    “At a general conference of the church held on September 9, 1851, Young called on the attendees to “leave off the use of” items mentioned in the Word of Wisdom:

    “The Patriarch [John Smith] again rose to speak on the Word of Wisdom, and urging on the brethren to leave off using tobacco, &c.

    President Young rose to put the motion and called on all the sisters who will leave off the use of tea, coffee, &c., to manifest it by raising the right hand; seconded and carried.

    And then put the following motion; calling on all the boys who were under ninety years of age who would covenant to leave off the use of tobacco, whisky, and all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom, to manifest it in the same manner, which was carried unanimously.”Though Young encouraged Mormons to follow the Word of Wisdom code, the church was tolerant of those who did not follow it. In 1860, he counseled those chewing tobacco in church meetings to at least be discrete and not excessive, but did not charge users with sin.[34] By 1870, however, he ended the practice of chewing and spitting tobacco in the Salt Lake Tabernacle.[35]
    In 1921, church president Heber J. Grant made adherence to the proscriptions of the Word of Wisdom an absolute requirement for entering the temple.[38]
    Today, adherence to the proscriptions of the Word of Wisdom is required for baptism[44] and for entry into temples of the LDS Church.[45]”

  66. Brigham Young owned a bar in SLC. His reasoning was that the non LDS were going to buy whiskey, tobacco, etc so that profit might as well go to the saints rather than the gentiles.

  67. “from what I understand the FLDS can drink alcohol, tea, coffee because they take the Word of Wisdom as advice rather than a commandment”
    Born in Brooklyn said this on April 7, 2011 at 6:47 AM


    They DO drink coffee, tea, booze etc.

  68. Smoking is prohibited.

    I do recall, however, one of my mothers keeping a pack of cigarettes high up in the cupboard. For earaches, she would tear one apart and use the tobacco somehow. I never dared ask her further about it.

  69. Adherence to the Word of Wisdom in the LDS community is associated with very good health outcomes, I will post a link to a study later. It should be noted that the religious group with the best health outcomes is the Seventh Day Adventists, due to their vegetarianism.

  70. whoops sorry – continuing on the Seventh Day Adventists – they also refrain from smoking and alcohol use.

  71. I work for a company who has a very high ratio of LDS. It was always a tell tale sign and “gentile” joke seeing someone at work with a Mountain Dew. When I sponsored a large meeting in the south where I knew many of them were coming, I had a tub full of Mountain Dew and Diet Coke available along with the usual coffee/tea and sweets at the morning meeting. You could look around the conference table and tell who was who by whether they had coffee/tea or a Mountain Dew. In fact they drank so many of them I had to send someone out to buy more. Many of them I known are bishops in LDS wards across US.

  72. Cancer incidence among Mormons and non-Mormons in Utah (United States) 1995–1999
    Ray M. Merrill Ph.D., M.P.H.a, b, , and Joseph L. Lyon M.D., M.P.H.b

    aDepartment of Health Science, College of Health and Human Performance, Brigham Young University, 229-A Richards Building, Provo, UT 84602, USA

    Department of Family and Preventive Medicine, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT 84108, USA

    Available online 19 November 2004.

    Population-based Utah Cancer Registry data were linked with Latter-day Saint (LDS or Mormon) Church membership records to obtain site-specific cancer incidence for LDS and non-LDS populations in Utah during 1995–1999.

    Analyses were based on 27,631 incident cases of cancer identified among whites. Restriction to whites was made because of the small number of nonwhites, approximately 5%, in the state during the study period. The direct method was used to age-adjust the rates to the 2000 U.S. standard population.

    Significantly lower cancer incidence rates per 100,000 were observed among LDS compared with non-LDS males (287.2 vs. 321.1) and females (247.7 vs. 341.0). The lower rates are primarily explained by smoking-related cancers and female breast cancer. If the overall cancer incidence rate in LDS had occurred in the non-LDS population, 2.9% or 421 fewer cases would have occurred among males and 7.9% or 1,025 fewer cases would have occurred among females during the study period.

    Given our current knowledge of risk factors for cancer, differences between LDS and non-LDS in smoking for males and smoking and sexual and reproductive behaviors in females primarily explain the lower risk of cancer in LDS populations.

    Keywords: Breast cancer; Latter-day Saints; Lung cancer; Mormons; Prostate cancer; Religion; Smoking-related cancer

  73. Jim seems to me that was not an uncommon strategy back then. For instance when they were not to mine for metals, there were no rules about robbing, and killing, “gentile” miners. Oh yeah and US army payrolls. Soon enough it became ok to mine if it was coal or iron.

  74. Today’s Safety Net Committee meeting starts in 20 minutes

  75. Granny, what is this about mining disallowed? I’m completely ignorant of this.

  76. ET, I can take a guess at that mystery. It’s an old folk remedy to blow tobacco smoke into the ear to cure ear ache. Goes back to the american indians. You can buy bee’s wax tubes in health food stores to direct the smoke, believe it or not, even today.

  77. In the early years the LDS were discouraged from mining precious metals by the Church leaders. Reference and quote below.

    “Brigham denounced mining and prospecting for precious metals. Instead he urged his people to engage in more “productive” pursuits such as agriculture, business, and establishing new satellite communities. Mining activities among the Mormon settlers were limited to those minerals required for industry, such as salt, coal, iron, lead, and sulfur.

  78. Granny, Mark Twain in his novel, “Roughing It” recounted his trip out West with his brother by stagecoach. He cautioned against poor travelers that entered the Salt Lake valley in need of resupplies or restock because he felt that the emigrants were unfairly price gouged and he lampooned the experiences. JH Beadle a non-Mormon author and newspaper editor, oft called an unfair critic, in Salt Lake City in the 1860s-1880s recorded the standard practices of markups for the ‘Gentile’ sojourners.

  79. Thanks so much, Betty! That brings back the forgotten memory. I never saw her apply the cigarette remedy but you’ve prompted my memory of her explaining how she blew the smoke into the affected ear, then tore up any unused portion of the cigarette and threw it away. I recall how difficult it was for me to picture her actually doing that. (I’m sure tearing it up was to protect us kids from temptation.) 😉

    My daughter used to make those beeswax ear cones for a natural healer. It’s a weird practice, but some people swear by it. Didn’t do a thing for me when I tried it just once. Indeed, the cones are available today in my local health store.

  80. Actually they’re called ‘ear candles.’

  81. Ear candles. Sounds like the are made from ear wax? Eeeuuuuwh.

  82. Silver was found in the St George area and there are a ton of mine shafts there. Funny story how it was discovered.

    Someone wanted to trick an assayor and gave him a chunk of a sandstone sharpening wheel. It came back rich in Silver, and caused a big silver mining boom, bringing the first cash economy into southern utah.

    Dont know how many locals partook in the mining though.

  83. Just stumbled onto these pictures of my people during the 1935 and 1953 raids! As you click on each of the 13 photos, a paragraph appears from the news about it.

    For my Johnson Canyon anon friend, there’s a great photo of Price William Johnson.,+Arizona,+USA&ri=U318136ACME&rin=11541494

  84. Silver Reef (about 20 miles north of St. George) was the big mining town in the area.

    Tons of outsiders came to mine in Silver Reef. They had a Catholic cemetery and a Chinese cemetery. There was at least one local brewery. It was a hopping place until the silver played out.

    There is a wonderful museum there now in the old Wells Fargo Bank/stagecoach building. Check it out if you’re in the area visiting Zion National Park or heading to the Grand Canyon.

  85. And Price Johnson milking a cow at the pen in Florence.

  86. Great pictures cousin!!

  87. Okay, Texans, who thinks Isaac Carling Spencer looks just like Lyle Lovett?

  88. haha…he does!!!! By the way…I’m a Texan..

  89. Betty, it’s not made out of ear wax, but it works. I have had it done before and it really cleans out your ear.

  90. I was joking, PT. I know what it’s made out of.

  91. Third Cousin, I liked the caption for Price Johnson – “The Infamous Polygamist”. Why was he so infamous?

    Check out these photos of the 1953 raid on Short Creek from the Utah State Historical Society

  92. I should have mentioned in my post above that if you click on the first photo from the Utah State Historical Society, it will enlarge the photo and then you can advance using the “next” button at the bottom to see all 99 photos in a slide show.

  93. No, use the “next” button up on the right of the photo; it’s easier to advance if you don’t want to read the same details over and over.

  94. These old photos from 1953 show the women and children dressed in contemporary clothes – I even saw a pair of bobby socks and oxfords on one of the wives. The little girls even had short skirts with their knees showing. Boy, how times have changed!

    Does anyone know who owned that lovely stone house on page 4 photo #66? What a great front door!

  95. John Llewellyn on now regarding the Canadian Reference Case

  96. I’m glad people enjoy the photos, wasn’t sure if I was off-topic or not.

    Anon 7:16, I don’t know why the word “infamous” on Price Johnson, but I have spent enough time with old newspapers to know that news headlines were ridiculouly sensational at the time, so I imagine if Price had been mentioned once in the news he could be described as “infamous.” And note the sensational allegations of “wild orgies,” which I would doubt at the time were anything more than smoke & mirrors. But who knows?

    I LOVE the Utah State Historical Society photos but am saddened that the families are not identified – some I can see who it is, most I cannot. If anybody feels like ID’ing them, that would be great.

    These daliances are water under the bridge given our current struggle against the inherent evils of polygamy, but those of us who count these people as family are still torn by deep respect for those who endured for their deluded beliefs.

    And I say all this fully expecting an ancestor’s hand (or maybe even my mom’s) to slap me in the face even as I write this. It’s that real to many of us.

    Thanks to all, I have always felt respected here and hope I give the same to others.

  97. @Anon 7:39 – I am always struck by the old photos and how “normal” their appearance was for the time – the oppressive old-fashioned look seems unique to the modern FLDS group while the other groups (at least all I have studied) kept modestly with the times and never proscribed hairstyles or clothing within the limitations of the garments.

  98. Sorry I have to get low brow for a sec, but I came across an FLDS member on the list named:

    Chelsea Bleu Cox


    I went through and extracted all of the communities that the Elders reside in:
    Hildale, UT
    Colorado City, AZ
    Beryl, UT
    Las Vegas, NV
    Henderson, NV (do these families have to drive all the way to Shrot Creek for church? Ouch.)
    Pioch, NV
    Mesquite, NV
    Eldorado, TX
    Hurricane, UT
    San Angelo, TX
    Cheyenne, WY (Really?)
    Custer, SD
    Lubbock, TX
    Christoval, TX
    Edgerton, MN (Ouch)
    Glendale, UT
    Kerrville, TX
    Creston, BC
    Lister, BC
    Coanyon, BC
    Yahk, BC
    Pangwitch, UT
    Flagstaff, AZ
    Mancos, CO

    Notably absent is anyone from anywhere in Mexico, confirming my theory that the Benjamin Hills compound is a myth. Canadians signed it, so If they had Mexicans, they would have signed too, right?

  99. I’ve always thought that Benjamin Hills was a myth too. The reason I never held much stock in the Mexico theory is that to live there and work there they’d have to learn a new language and that would take time away from their priesthood classes.

  100. Thank you, 3C for posting those links to pictures.

    The Utah State Historical Society photos were particularly moving.

    For the most part, those people looked like they lived very hard lives.

    This just could be just my limited perspective, photos of my own family from the same time depict a much higher standard of living. We were soundly in the urban middle class, so thats a big difference right there.

    I got the impression that most of the women and children in the photographs didn’t live in communal groups, but lived independently. Is this correct?

  101. In the Corbis photos, one of the captions says “Beneath a background of red and bronze mountains, nestles a tiny village which has come into the public eye mainly because of action taken by the county attorney Elmo Bollinger, after he found out that it was a Polygamist colony. There are only about twenty-five or thirty families in the town, most of them on relief. The situation came to light when some of the women, in applying for relief funds, listed themselves plural wives. In one instance three women gave birth to babies in one month, and all of the infants had the same father.”

    I didn’t realize that the Short Creek residents were on welfare back in the 1950’s. 60 years of getting state assistance? That’s a LONG time and a LOT of money!

  102. Anon 7:13

    I think that’s right – living in homes with all one’s spouses and children was risky. My GG grandfather’s family had two wives & 17 kids and lived in separate houses connected by a breezeway in rural Davis County, UT.

  103. Anon 8:53 – I didn’t know they were on relief either. I would like verification of that, as the news contained other inaccuracies during that episode.

  104. The subtle fact behimd the welfare status is that many of the recipients are able to be self-supporting but the stipend allows the priesthood fathers to donate larger tithings to the FLDS Church and claim much lower income amounts. It’s AFLAC Insurance in reverse to ‘Bleed the Beast’ by design and money-launder the welfare support into the FLDS Church coffers. The local Wal-Mart manager recounted a story, after the YFZ Raunch Rescue, wherein a trailer was loaded at his store by FLDS members and the bill was paid for with magnetic welfare cards.

    So, for years now the need for welfare support has flowed into the FLDS Church coffers.

  105. @ List anon – wow, thanks for the list of communities.

    On Mexico – I never heard of a Benjamin Hills but FLDS has always had a presence in Mexico so it doesn’t make sense to me that they are no longer there. Who led the Mexican FLDS after the death of Margarito Bautista?

  106. “…FLDS has always had a presence in Mexico so it doesn’t make sense to me that they are no longer there.”

    I agree with that statement.

    Unless I’m mistaken, this is a picture of Marjorie Holm, one of the sweetest and most unassuming women I knew in my youth and wife of priesthood council member, Carl O.N. Holm:

  107. Thanks ET! I’m related to Carl Otto Nathaniel Holm – I think Marjorie was a Morrison. I assume Richard and Heber are sons of Carl O.N.

  108. The baby she is holding is, I believe, Susan who became ill on the bus when the women and children were kidpped in 1953 and taken to phoenix. She was refused medical help and died soon after as a result. At least that is the story i was told.

  109. These are great pictures…even though some of them had very poor living conditions..the children, for the most part look clean and groomed…

  110. Wow, anon 9:57, that’s tragic. I have a date of death for Susan as 10/18/1955, just over 5 years old. I wonder if she was even back to her mother by then. My baby is 5 years old right now.

  111. I know that the LaBarons are in Mexico and some of the Stubbs family are intermarried into the LaBaron group, but I don’t think that any of Warren Jeffs followers are in Mexico as a group such as they are in Canada, Eldorado, SD, etc. For one thing, Warren never gives it a refuge number in his dictations and never mentions sending anyone there to work or repent or anything. IMO, if they had a place in Mexico, he’d have dictated about it. He couldn’t stand not to.

  112. I think Harvard Stubbs and matriarch Rose Ann now lead a substantial group in Mexico, and LeBarons do too, and of course they’re all interrelated.

    Not so far back almost all of the fundamentalist groups were loosely confederated and mutually supportive, but not so now. But they do seem to still trade daughters around.

  113. IMO, Mexico for FLDS only serves as an escape location of sorts. That’s just based on gossip and various stories told by people supposedly in the know… mostly involving believers on the fringe. Warren wouldn’t consider Mexico any kind of a group stronghold … just a haven from LE to be considered.

  114. One of the longest standing polygamist communities is kn own to exist in Mexico. When the FBI wanted Warren Jeffs the community in Quintana Roo, Mexico was specifically identified. Warren’s dictations discusses ‘safe houses’ and ‘lands of refuge’ without specific numerical or locational information. One FLDS fugitive avoided arrest and trial by escaping into Mexico, so the connections must still exist at some level.

  115. I was thinking of Orson Black who is believed to have taken up nresidency in the Chihuahua District in Mexico.

  116. There is a substantial Lebaron presence in Quintana Roo.

    What’s kind of funny is that with Chihuahua being such a war zone, the WSJ followers are probably safer this side of the border.

  117. Here’s a nice short article on Bautista’s United Order polygamist mormon group in Ozumba, Mexico (south of Mexico City). I guess 10 years ago it was still going strong, although a many absorbed into mainline LDS.

  118. check it, the

    Dee Benson gave the trust to Warren.

    Fireworks not yet over!

  119. Well, yes and no Chaps, he gave it to the FLDS, not to Warren and it seems to be the deal that the idiot Utah AG agreed to. Question is whether it will apply to Arizona and also who’s in charge of the FLDS.

  120. And also, it could all be derailed next Tuesday when the Utah Supreme Court has a hearing on the issues it asked for submission on. That includes whether the Federal case was barred by laches.

  121. Yeah, perhaps I was being a little too generous to Warren – but after all, we know that Warren recently exed dozens and dozens of men, AND women, some leaving and some in rebellion evidently not.

    Also of course is the separate question of whether the FLDS is wagged by Willie or Warren.

    Interesting yet troubling times.

  122. Even if there were 4000 who raised their hand, if they did so under duress and fear then it wasn’t a valid vote. Imagine if William E. can prove that the FLDS is ruling by fear and imitidation.

  123. Hey! The Proclamation Signatures got deleted from

  124. Oh, never mind, I get it.

  125. Killings in the polygamist Black Hebrew Israelite sect in North Carolina under investigation

  126. Justice – Utah style

  127. Mormon Polygamy – A Virus of the Mind Chapter 6

  128. Mormon Polygamy – A Virus of the Mind – Chapter 7 – Brigham Young’s Y Chromosome

  129. Closing Arguments of the Attorney General of British Columbia, Day 34, 3/29/11 for the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy

  130. Hurrah to Carolyn Jessop. She is really getting the word out about the reality of polygamy as practiced by the flds.

    Carolyn Jessop is on a mission.

    The 43-year-old mother of eight “escaped” from a polygamist compound eight years ago and is determined to open the public’s eyes to the realities of a way of life that holds women powerless and children in peril.

    “The crime is still happening, and children are still being hurt,” she told a packed house at Missouri State University Tuesday night.”

  131. [

  132. Third Cousin, I figured out the 2 Johnson Canyons.

    One is just north of St. George in Snow Canyon State Park.

    The other Johnson Canyon is 10 miles east of Kanab on the way to the the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument.

    The old TV set for Gunsmoke is up the Johnson Canyon Road as you head up to the old Skutumpah Road.

    John D. Lee’s wife, Emma, lived with him at Lonely Dell and helped run the ferry. He had another wife living in Skutumpah. At one time John D. Lee lived in Johnson Canyon.

    My research says that the canyon was named for Joe Hills Johnson, father of Nephi Johnson.

    A transcript of an interview by Enid Johnson Supernaw and Vaydes Johnson Brueck (Sisters who lived in Johnson Canyon) says:

    SM: Uh huh. So I know this is kind of going back, but you mentioned Lee’s Ferry and I remember, I think it was a Warren Johnson who manned that ferry for a long time.

    VB: It wasn’t a relative.

    SM: No? Wasn’t a relative huh?

    VB: No.

    SM: I was wondering about that.

    ES: No, different Johnson. Different family.

    This IS the Johnson Canyon I’ll be visiting – the one in Kane County instead of the one in Washington County – it seems that it wasn’t named for Price Johnson after all.

    I found a transcript of a Joseph Smith Johnson who mentions Frank, Roy and Elmer Johnson. He may be your relative.

    click on the “Kanab” link and choose the last person (5th in the list) and click on “view transcript”. It’ll open in WORD

    There are many other interesting oral histories on this BLM web site.

    One by Leola Mangum Cattery Schoenfield on the “Bryce Valley” link mentions John Wesley Mangum who lived at Lee’s Ferry with 3 wives.

  133. The last update on ‘Warrant’ Jeffs status hearing on his pending Court trial that announced that the witness list was sealed and not public was noteworthy but not totally surprising. The other item that was also sealed from public knowledge, which I feel is far more ominous, was the sealing of any additional ‘Bad Acts’ beyond what ‘Warrant’ is charged with and used during the sentencing phase of his trial should a guilty verdict be found. What in the world would the Court wish to keep from the public about Jeffs ‘Bad Acts’ to make such a ruling? Canada’s reference case and the now known 27+’Child Brides’ may hint at a comparable amount of US ‘Child Brides’ that were sex trafficked into Canada.

  134. Could a ‘Child Bride’ be a witness at Jeffs trial with first-hand knowledge on her marriage, sexual assault and a resultant parentage of a child?

  135. As much as the man liked to record everything he did including making audio sex tapes, I’m thinking there is more stuff that we don’t know about that involves under aged girls. There might also be stuff that he ordered other people to do that is illegal and those people have not been charged (yet).

  136. This is something that both Blues [I miss his posts!] and RiH have sorta touched upon in the past. There has got to have been SOOO much stuff confiscated [in the search at YFZ, alone] that some of it may not come to light for a long time. We may be only seeing the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

  137. Hmmm, that last was obviously me. Wonder how that happened???

  138. Third Cousin,
    The Bautista group was never flds, it was a group associated with the aub, or Allred group. There used to be stories of people living im Mexico, but after the split in the 80’s, there wasn’t much said about them. There are still AUB followers in Mexico, and The Ivan Nielsen group has recently been going down to mexico to re-connect with polygamists still down there.
    There is a faction of polygamists who believe that Lorin Wooley gave the priesthood keys to a “Lamanite prophet” in Yucatan mexico, and he was the only legal heir, and the people in short creek were claiming illigitimate authority.

  139. Third cousin…There is a lady in Kanab that knows a lot about Lee’s Ferry.if you come to visit Johnson Canyon you should talk to her..Her name is Zelma Johnson!

  140. I heard about 5 or 6 years ago (it was after the FLDS had started the YFZ) that 2 FLDS men – one (or maybe both) Warren’s brother(s) – were stopped on the Mexican highway 2D east of Tijuana.

    I was told that FLDS had been seen in Rosarito by a guy who swore he had personally seen them. Rosarito is not very far south of Tijuana.

  141. CAJim, I don’t think it will be sealed forever and always, and it wasn’t actually filed with the court. From what I’ve been told, it was a preliminary version to give the defense counsel a hint at what the State is going to bring up. I think once all the pretrial documents are actually filed with the clerk then they will be available for public consumption, although we might have to pool our resources to afford copies from the clerk. It’s said that the bad acts document is at least 1/2 inch thick. That comes from someone who was in the courtroom and actually saw the document that was handed to defense counsel.


    This is the third recording / transcript of Jeffs giving control of the FLDS to William E. Jessop. This one includes ominous handlings, some to be done in secret and some not.

    Twice he proclaims himself the most wicked man on earth.

    This call and attendant transcript on video was made to YFZ. The others are the “Warren Jeffs confession 1 and version 2” on youtube also done in Purgatory, but “in person”.

    The second is the transcript of the call made directly to Willie while he was in South Dakota.

    This third one is new, at least to me.

  143. actually we all used to go down to rosarita, but only to get dental work done. there has never been a colony down there

  144. woo hoo Stamp!!!

  145. Jim Barlow also owns property in Rosarita!

  146. Anon@5:32 PM when you went to Rosarito for dental work, where did you stay? Was there a permanent house/apartment? Or did you stay in a motel room?

  147. Rosarita is a long way from Short Creek. Were the Mexican dentists so good that it would be economically less expensive to get dental work done there instead of in Utah or Arizona? It would have been a long drive with gas and housing to pay for.

    I am assuming that it was routine dental work because traveling that far with a tooth ache would have been just AWFUL.

  148. I stayed at Jim’s place which is close to Rosarita.I went for a vacation and went to the dentist also.

  149. I found this interesting website on recovery from spiritual abuse. Here is a survey which you can ask a friend to take (or you can take it yourself) to identify the characteristics of a spiritually abusive religious organization.

  150. Stamp, there sure seems to be two people inside of this prophet. One confessing and owning up to his actions and take over of his father’s role. Then the established and well ensconced fanatical leader that doesn’t hesitate to continue his control and ‘handle’ any naysayers. This swing in personality gives Warren one of his greatest defenses against the crimes he is accused of commiting. His previous suicide attempt, hunger strike and these recants of his proper station in the FLDS Church certainly brings up the topic of a highly unstable payche and mental state. I trust the jailer knows not to feed him ‘Coco fo Cocoa Puffs’ in the mornin`.

  151. actually, Jim was quite private with his place down there. we always stayed at a beach front villa that had full blown security. the dental work is really well priced at less than a quarter of what you pay in the states, so in the end you ended up saving big time. here’s the thing though…the jeffs family really enjoyed a certain dentist down there and a lot of rulons wives went down pretty often. every time I went down there it seems like one or two of them would be going down as well

  152. 3rd Cousin, can you tell me how Harvard Stubbs is related to the Stubbs families who are still in Colorado City?

  153. Transcript Day 37, April 1, 2011 for the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy

  154. Hi PT, I’ll try to answer your Stubbs question although I am feeling the residual effects of getting a little overexcited at the PBR last night!

    Harv Stubbs is the son of Lawrence Ritchie Stubbs & Genevieve Mae Pratt. Lawrence also married Rhoda Olsen and others They were all at the 1953 Short Creek raid. Lawrence & Genevieve and their children moved to Colonia LeBaron, and both died there. Harv’s half sister Fawn Stubbs married David Jessop Broadbent (son of Joseph Leslie). Sister Pricilla married Verlan LeBaron. Harv’s brother Ritchie married Debbie Bateman who also married Ervil LeBaron. I think that almost all the Stubbs in the FLDS communities descend from Lawrence Ritchie, whose parents are John William Stubbs (1883-1963) and Margaret Ritchie (1884-1919).

    If you have specific names, I can probably run those down.

  155. I’ve got Lawrence Richie (1908-1992) married to both Genevieve and Rhoda. I’ve got Lawrence Richie II and Fawn as children of Rhoda and Laurel and Harvard as sons of Genevieve. I’m sure there are more children for both of those wives.

    Then I’ve got David Lawrence who married Rose LaSalle Pledger and also Rebecca Carlson. Do you know who David’s parents are? I think David’s children are mostly out while Lawrence Richie II has some kids still in.

  156. PT – I wish I had independent confirmation of this, but I’m pretty sure David Lawrence Stubbs who married “Sally” Pledger is the son of Lawrence Ritchie Stubbs and Rhoda Olsen and was born in 1940.

  157. That’s the way I was leaning.

  158. Which Stubbs girl was married to Joel LaBaron?

  159. PT – If you mean the prophet Joel, Jeanine, Lavina, and Priscilla Stubbs.

  160. Dang, he was popular.

  161. David Stubbs wanted to marry Susan Ray Schmidt before she married Verlan LeBaron, but Susan told him NO WAY!

  162. Susan was wise!

  163. Susan was smarter to marry a LeBaron than a Stubbs? Spill please.

  164. I’ll only say that Susan found Verlan LeBaron to be much more charming than David Stubbs. Of course Verlan pretty much ignored her in his quest to add more “jewels in his crown” (wives in his harem).

  165. At least David didn’t have any murderous siblings, that I know of.

  166. No excuses, but compassion. Mental illness ravages, sometimes through many generations. Many of the Lebarons never had a chance from the DNA get-go.

  167. @PT – re David Lawrence Stubbs – when I said I wish I had “independent confirmation,” for me that means at least three sources that can’t double back on each other. So I’m pretty sure.

  168. I meant that Susan was smart because she eventually left

  169. Yes, leaving a situation where people are getting killed is a good thing.

  170. I have never how sisters can be married to the same man. Raymond Jessop had several sets of sisters he was married to as does Warrren. Apparently Joel LeBaron married sisters as well.

  171. @Johnson Canyon Anon – Thanks for the info on the canyons, glad you solved the mystery, and especially thanks for the link to the Joseph Smith Johnson info – they are all my relatives. And Joel Hills Johnson is actually distantly related with the Warren Johnsons by marriage.

  172. @ long time gone – thanks for the info on the Mexican groups. Does the lamanite prophet faction in the Yucatan have a name?

  173. Anon 04/09/2011 4:50pm – thanks for the info on Zelma Johnson. I travel there fairly often and would love to hear stories of the ancestors!

  174. PT – is your Lawrence Ritchie Stubbs II born in 1961?

  175. PT – Oops, Lawrence Ritchie Stubbs II was born 02/06/1936.

  176. Yes to the 2nd date you gave 3C.

    Just heard that Merril’s pretrial hearing set for Thursday has been continued until May 12. Goldy suddenly has a hankering to do some discovery. Go figure. This case has been pending foe 2 1/2 years and now, a month before the trial the defense decides to do something. Isn’t he special!!!

  177. and appear to have evaporated. Does anyone know?

  178. Yes, they both show “blank document” when you try to access them. Sore toes is still out there with recent articles and posts.

  179. Oh chemist, all those first person historical accounts gone…!

  180. The Utah AG on the subject of child bride marriages, IMO the facts coming out of the Canada case have put some heat on the Utah AG, thanks to the Texas Rangers.,0,7954046.story

    IMO like the Utah AG didn’t already know about this info. Also article states AG fears split in FLDS.

  181. If the Utah AG would have done his job in the first place, all these men would already be behind bars for crimes committed in Utah and we wouldn’t be having to prosecute them in Texas.

  182. PT: I fully agtree with you. The Utah AG has been very lax in prosecuting polgamist adults for abuses, undewrage marriage, financial fraud, etc.

  183. FYI–new article at sltrib regarding the UEP tug-o-war.

  184. So the AG of Utah is now concerned…..wonderful!!!

  185. Can you say holy guacamole!!!

  186. I’d seen that earlier but it won’t let me comment just now.

  187. Can you say holy guacamole!!!

    Proud Texan said this on April 11, 2011 at 8:00 PM

    You betcha, like WOW! Sounds like this is going to be be like the Mitchell case with the Appeals Court in Denver again deciding what happens, and as history shows this appeals court can come up with some shockers, this ones going to DC, wish Ron in Houston was here, a shocker with a state court defying a federal court, a tales of international crimes & polygamy, something that even the fiction writers of “Big Love” could have not thought of, as case of fact stranger than fiction. Imagine being a Justice on the US Supreme Court having to sort this out!

  188. Hey 3C, this one of your relatives?

    Birth Date: 04/11/81
    Address : 480 LARSEN STREET, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    16:30:00 04/10/11 Sweetwood, Will SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-5-102 . DV-ASSAULT ,SIMPLE BM 5DIS 1012.00 1012.00

  189. I have rarely heard of a state court instructing non-compliance with a federal court order. Reminds me of the time Idaho governor Cecil Andrus threatened to call out the national guard to block nuclear waste if it came into Idaho without a long term storage plan.

  190. RE Cooke – a brilliant addition his 2010 crank possession charge.

  191. 3C, go read Judge Lindberg’s order.

  192. Yo, PT, hadn’t seen the actual order. So I guess there’ll be a job opening in the federal district?

  193. My favorite part of the order is when she tells Benson that no one is even sure who the President of the FLDS Corporation is, and reminds him that that entity isn’t even a party to the litigation anyway.

  194. Naw 3C, no opening, Federal Judges are appointed for life.

  195. Yes, and running the asylum.

  196. Indeed, it would be nice to have a lawyer comment on all of this.

    Lindberg’s order brings up what I was wondering….how can you possibly turn over assets to an entity that can not even define for itself who it is?

    I am reminded again that Wisan is in all probability a saint.

  197. Obviously you’ve never tried to deal with him….

  198. Have you, a non? Some of the people who post here regularly have in fact interacted with him on occasion.

  199. Ya gotta admit – it seems insane to turn over the bank accounts of a huge church to a leader who is in prison for breaking numerous laws. If a person is known to be DISHONEST, should he be allowed to hold the purse?

  200. I agree with you, older anon. I’m for the rank and file getting their own homes back. They can then “consecrate” them back to whomever they chose. I can’t imagine a legal document that does not define who is a beneficiary, for instance, or that dedicates itself to the support of an illegal act in the first few paragraphs. But that’s what the original trust document did. How that document could stand in anyone’s mind is beyond me. Religious beliefs, yes, but not in defiance of logic and the law. It’s still a financial document governed by the laws of the state and the US.

  201. Betty, Yes! You express things so much better.

  202. Special Fiduciary Bruce Wisan has identified the unknown conditions that he found when he took over the UEP Trust. Wisan has never gotten the information from the Texas Rangers nor FBI Agents who supposedly captured financial files and accounting records within the red Ford Escalade that Warren Jeffs was arrested. Also, the records that are held by Rodney Parker, who was the UEP Trust attorney, and ordered by Judge Lindberg to surrender these files but it never happened. Subsequently, the Court appointed Fiduciary Trustee has never held all of the files and records to fully access and control this UEP Trust.

  203. For those who want to listen in to the Utah Supreme Court arguments at 2:00 p.m. Utah time:

  204. You can listen to the live oral arguments for the UEP and Judge Lindberg online today at 2 PM MDT

    BTW CAJim, Warren was riding in a red Cadillac, not a Ford.

  205. But you make a good point, CalJim, regardless of the make of car.

  206. Oh Sorry, that’s right Fords are for FLDS followers and Cadillacs are for the self-appointed Profit. I still disagree with forming any trust that uses specific religious teachings, like,”Just needs and individual wants”, that then draws any Court action or remedy into a claim of interference with a ‘Freedom of Religion’ and seperation of Church and State. A claim made by the party that authored the Trust religious teaching verbage in the first place and tries to benefit from this wording if the Court becomes invilved with making any ruling or decision. It definitely speaks of a ‘Have my own cake and I get to eat it exclusively” clause(s).
    This UEP Trust language never should have been allowed in the first place and very similar language has been proposed in Texas trust for the YFZ Ranch.

  207. I need me a Candy Apple Red Cadillac Escalade so’s I can Make my ESCAPE from the FBI!

    I NEED it!

    I WANT it!


  208. Hi anon
    You are correct have never dealt with WIsan so I have no first hand knowledge if if qualifies for sainthood

    But it seem clear from observation that Flds leaders do not negotiate. Ever. So if you have to work with them either you accede to exactly their demands, get out of town, or you qualify for the gritted teeth (saint) award

  209. “But it seem clear from observation that Flds leaders do not negotiate. Ever.”

    Wellllll – there may be some fudge room there. There were some please given at the texas trials, right? Though that may have been economics.

    I would agree they usually would refuse to be reasonable – even if it meant possible jail or prison time – or the loss of the entire UEP as it seems to be getting whittled down from several fronts, with the biggest cause of their downfall being their stubbornness.


  210. So flds will not cooperate with government officials? – not good when a supposedly Christian organization behaves like this….

  211. hhf two comments ago was me

  212. I listened to the USC oral arguments this afternoon. Jeff Shields and the attorney representing the AZ AG got it in a couple of times about the UEP Trust supporting an illegal lifestyle and the marrying of little girls and sex against their will.

    It was GREAT! Now there is so much evidence (31 child brides and probably still counting) that this has been going on for a couple of decades and the FLDS can’t deny it any longer unless they come out and say that their own profit is a liar.

    No more FLDS saying “child brides… who us?”

    Hats off to Texas and especially Texas Ranger Nick Hanna!


  214. third cousin,
    The people who believe in the “Lamanite Prophet” are mostly a loose affiliation of Lynn Bishop, who was basically a continuation of Rhea Kunz’s “woolley stories” she told and wrote books about. The story was that Lorin Woolley went to the Yucatan and gave the keys to a White skinned indian down there.

  215. Here’s more on today’s Utah Supreme Court hearing:

    In the video none other than ole Willie the Thug appeared, but he didn’t say weither he supported the Warranites or the other Willie as “profit”.

  216. Well for some reason that link didn’t work lets try again:

  217. Thanks, LTG. Rhea Allred Kunz is my second cousin, perhaps “removed.” I hope to get my hands on some of her writings.

  218. Imagine that, Willie without a comment.

    I’m sure Parker has to be really confused as to who his client actually is given that he’s always has Willie by his side. If he’s representing the Warrenites than he and Willie shouldn’t be so chummy. If he’s representing the Timpsonites then he’s OK hanging with Willie.

  219. SCOT on UEP

    Funny picture of Willie looking extremely frustrated.

  220. Well, as the FLDS Church appeals to higher Court authorities and the Federal Court System is now attentive to their plans, achemes and state convictions mount they are pushing themselves out upon the thin ice where the RICO Act becomes the most viable remedy to redress this criminal enterprise. With the evidence being presented to the BC Canadian Supreme Court Justice for a decision, do they really imagine that a favorable ruling is imminent? Standing on their US Constitutional right while it will be proven that their international border sex trafficking has violated a whole host of statutes is, “The FLDS Folly” if they end up triggering the RICO Act in order to end their crime wave.

  221. It’s humorous to see all our old “friends” crawl out from under the wood work to make comments on the trib post. Good old Julie Worth, Medvecky, Deci, Celtic, etc. All the legal experts so sure of how the courts should rule. Still spouting the same stuff; “obviously fraud involved”. Talking about how Parker should get paid for his “work” (? who has retained him, exactly?) but Wisan should not because of what he’s “trying to cover up”. All without a shred of evidence. Makes me nostalgic for the old days when I used to hang out there….well, no, it does not in fact.

  222. I was wondering what kind of FLDS shenanigans would keep us busy until WSJ’s summer date with the judge and jury.

    Willie DOES look like he has big ol’ headache in the SLT article linked above.

    I swear, this whole tale gets more and more convoluted. Puts the most inventive fiction I’ve seen/read to shame.

    Have to remind myself, its not a movie and there are people who have had their rights as human beings oppressed. And continue to.

  223. observing

    Oppressed – yeah, Warren has them hurting 6 ways from Sunday.

    I would like to think Willie “T” could make it better, but the cookies arent done yet so I dunno on that one. We’ll see.

    Warren telling everyone and their cousin he was “The most wicked man on the face of the earth” should be a wake up call to the flock and the courts – who could argue that wisdom?

  224. Just found out from the Texas AG’s office that they have until April 26 to rule on whether or not Reagan County has to release the tapes of Warren’s phone conversations.

  225. Who will rule? The AG?

  226. Maybe Thugly just had some really bad gas yesterday!

  227. Yes Third Cousin, the Texas AG will make a ruling on whether the information is actually accessible under the Texas Open Records Act.

  228. Today’s Eldorado Success Newspaper says that deadbeat dad Merril Jessop’s trial has been postponed AGAIN.

  229. I figured that was coming when Goldy talked about the Federal Warrants at the pretrial hearing on March 31. He’s looking for any excuse to keep Merril from going to trial. When you are a deadbeat dad, would you want to go to before a Judge on other bad acts?

  230. This guy’s not too bright. Look at the long list of stuff he was arrested for.

    Birth Date: 03/21/91
    Address : 775 S 1740 W, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    20:31:09 04/12/11 Shafer, JD IVIN

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-5-112 RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT AM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-1a-704 DISPLAY PREV OWNER PL CM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-6a-708 IMPROPER PASS-NO PASS CM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-6a-708 IMPROPER PASS-NO PASS CM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    53-3-227(3)(b) DL SUSPEND/REV/OUT OF BM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-1A-1303(2) UT REGISTRATION REQUI BM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-6a-528 RECKLESS DRIVING BM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-6a-601 SPEED CM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-6a-210 EVADING-FLEE BY VEHIC 3F 5DIS 7800.00 [No Payments Made] 0.00 [No Payments Made]

  231. Fun translation:

    1 = gun safety off.
    2 = stole the car.
    3 = passing at 95 in a 30.
    4 = passing on the right.
    5 = got revoked.
    6 = again, stole the car.
    7 = 90 in a 2-.
    8 = aggravated stupidity.
    9 = evade law enforcement while operating a stolen brain, I mean vehicle.

    Almost certainly a relative, I will await call for bail. ha ha.

  232. A number of priors, I see, but also a civil commitment? I apologize for my flippancy. I was just having fun.

  233. 3-c, If you are related to the Johnsons from Lee’s Ferry then you are related to Gabriel through his mother. 😉

  234. In Chapter 8 of Mormon Polygamy : A Virus of the Mind, John Llewellyn makes interesting observations regarding the similarities between Mormon fundamentalist polygamy and the Anabaptist Revolt of Munster –

  235. If you missed the live broadcast, here is the video recording of John Llewellyn’s interview on the Canadian Reference Case

  236. No harm 3C. After all he’s probably your kinfolk. 🙂

  237. Whoa

    Wonder who is doing this? Selling Warrens warning for 5 bucks


    Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

    Warning of the Lord Jesus Christ Through His Servant Warren Jeffs, to the United States of America

    Quantity Price Total

    Original copies of

    Warning of the Lord Jesus Christ to All Nations $ 4.75
    $ 4.75

    *Shipping is included in price

    Phone Orders

    Phone: (702) 686-****

    Fax Orders Download Form

    Fax: (435) 874-****

    Main Orders Download Form

    Mail Payment To:

    Twin City Courier Inc.
    P.O. Box 840686
    Hildale, Utah 84784 USA

    Make Checks Payable to:
    Twin City Courier


  238. Dang, Dutson! Tear it up, dude!

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-5-112 RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT AM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-1a-704 DISPLAY PREV OWNER PL CM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-6a-708 IMPROPER PASS-NO PASS CM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-6a-708 IMPROPER PASS-NO PASS CM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    53-3-227(3)(b) DL SUSPEND/REV/OUT OF BM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-1A-1303(2) UT REGISTRATION REQUI BM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-6a-528 RECKLESS DRIVING BM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-6a-601 SPEED CM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]

    41-6a-210 EVADING-FLEE BY VEHIC 3F 5DIS 7800.00

    [No Payments Made] 0.00 [No Payments Made]

  239. Thanks, a non, who’s Gabriel’s mommy?

  240. Interesting find, Stamp.

    Twin City Courier has been the company in Hildale printing the religious books and pamphlets of the FLDS sermons for many years.

    Maybe they are the printing press that type set the “Warning of the Lord Jesus Christ Through His Servant Warren Jeffs, to the United States of America”?

    If that document is over 400 pages long, how can they afford to print it and mail it for only $4.75? I would think the postage alone would cost that much.

    Are the attorneys demanding payment now and the FLDS is scrambling to generate some $$$.

    BTW, what is an “original” copy?

  241. Make that “Original Photo Copy” I guess?


    Interesting they are taking phone orders on a Las Vegas telephone #.

  242. Except that the folks in Munster got over their insanity in only a few years…..

  243. My guess is they’re selling the 9 page document and not attaching the thousands of signatures.

  244. That’s my guess too 3C. The 9 page document only. Hope he realizes it’s all over the internet for free.

  245. Maybe the customers are the FLDS sheeple who can drive by and pick up a copy, no postage needed.

    Funny they advertise it on the net though, when they arent allowed to use it.

    OK now I am confused. Thats like driving a car and boycotting gas stations.

    Dutson was boycotting having a drivers license, license plates, inurance, and pulling over for police, not to mention he broke all the other laws in the handbook.

    So I guess FLDS laws were made to be broken too!? Do I have that correct, kinda?

  246. “Sheeple?”

    I hadn’t heard that, just spit coffee at the keyboard.

  247. I was wrong, 3-c. I was thinking of the his uncle’s family. I don’t know that you’re related to Gabriel.

  248. Sheeple is one of our favorite words around here.

  249. Oh yeah, so whose the ‘Schlepherd of the sheeple’? Still Warren S Jeffs or is it now William E Jessop?

  250. Do you mean “who is?”

  251. ‘Piers Morgan Tonight’ show will interview Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher who have a Facebook page to oppose and legally stop sex trafficking in America, their organization is ‘The DNA Foundation’. Over 300,000 minor girls are estimated to enter the United States illegally from the age of 13 years and older. Kutcher is running a anti-prostitution campaign called, “Real Men Don’t Buy Girls” seems to be well timed as we await the BC Supreme Court ruling from Chief Justice Robert Bauman.

  252. William Timpson is a wildcard as of yet, so to me the Sheeple leader is Warren and Bubba Lyle.


  254. These folks sure do have their own fairytale world

  255. Hearing rumours of a Johnson family reunion in Colorado City this year….can anyone confirm or deny?

  256. Appearing on the Leroy S. Johnson Facebook page:

    The reunion is going to be at the Maxwell Park in Hildale Utah. we decided to do it there cuz then we could visit Grandpa’s grave side that weekend as well. So far… just a celebration on Saturday June 11. Everyone bring their own food n stuff to barbecue/picnic with. That will leave the other two days that weekend to visit family n go hiking up the narrows or something. I will try to get some type of P A system rented for that day in case we want to do a talent show or something…maybe donations to help out with the rent of the P A system. If anyone has baseball stuff or other sports equipment please bring it so we can play ball!

  257. Sounds like a party to me.

  258. Pretty sure it’s an apostate party. FLDS faithful don’t party any more like they used to when Uncle Roy was alive.

  259. Thank so much everyone!

    I’ll be there for sure. Fiance wants me to meet his mothers side…. I feel slightly better knowing it’s probably an apostate party. Is it so wrong for me to admit that?

    * succumbs to attack of nerves*


  261. SLTRIB : Federal Judge Benson wants Judge Lindberg in his court room on this Friday for some explantion on her ruling, when her attorney told him she would not be albe to make it, would be out of town for an Uncles funeral, Benson wanted to send the Marshalls out to drag her in!! Guess he calmed down, its rescheduled for Monday.

  262. Yeah Ariel, I’m pretty sure it will be apostates only. A few “wanna be” apostates might crash, but I doubt any of the serious WarrenLyleites will show.


    Here’s Ben Winslow’s story on it. I think Judge Benson has developed a big head.

    Judge Lindberg’s attorney has filed a Motion with the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals over the matter. Somehow I don’t think they will like it very much that Judge Benson is threatening a Judge who is going to attend a relatives funeral.

    Here’s a link to what Judge Lindberg’s attorney filed:

  264. Lol…. Judge vs Judge.

    Is our justice system truely so hopeless? This just slays me. Benson is worried the land was taken illegally.

    Well how many illegal acts, gross mismanagment and abuses of power have the flds leaders done on/with this “trust”?

    And while two wrongs don’t make a right, I would hope a federal court could see that this, as a greater good, needs to be done!

    Also, if they are going to throw fits about being legal then they had better follow through with it and bite into the whole dirty mess of the cult. Underage traficking/child slavery/child abuse/ IS AGAINST THE LAW!!!!

    Sure, by all means, be legal with the land. But be legal with the humans too.

    so to the courts of the US of A, I would like to see some REAL justice.

  265. SALT LAKE CITY — The battle for control of a Utah polygamous church’s land trust is in the hands of the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver.

    Appeals court clerk Elisabeth Shumaker said Thursday two judges are considering an emergency motion filed on behalf of Utah’s 3rd District Judge Denise Lindberg.

    Lindberg wants the 10th Circuit to block an April 8 preliminary injunction from U.S. District Judge Dee Benson that orders the trust returned to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and its jailed leader, Warren Jeffs.

    In the motion filed Wednesday, Lindberg claims Benson has created “an immediate crisis” that will cause “irreparable harm” and unravel six years of decisions by the Utah courts. She claims the federal court shouldn’t interfere.

    “By virtue of the orders issued by the district court, control of the state case will be inappropriately wrested from Judge Lindberg unless (the appeals court) takes immediate action,” wrote Brent M. Johnson, an attorney working on Lindberg’s behalf.

    The motion also claims Benson’s actions might undermine public confidence in the federal court because his ruling places the federal system “in direct conflict with the state courts.”

    Attorneys for the FLDS opposed Lindberg’s motion late Thursday.

    “The ’emergency’ cited by Judge Lindberg is entirely of her own making,” and her actions run afoul of federal court rules, attorney Rod Parker wrote.

    Parker contends that Benson’s order is crafted narrowly and protects the interests of all trust beneficiaries. The order prohibits the liquidation of assets or other significant changes while the trust remains entangled in lawsuits.

    It’s not clear when the appeals court would rule.

    The Utah courts seized control of the $114 million trust in 2005 amid allegations of mismanagement by Jeffs and other church leaders. The trust holds the land and homes of some 10,000 church members in Hildale, Utah, Colorado City, Ariz., and Bountiful, British Columbia.

    Under state control, the trust was stripped of its religious tenets. Its seizure is being challenged by the FLDS through lawsuits in both state and federal courts.

    In February, Benson ruled in the church’s favor, saying Utah’s takeover of the trust was a violation of the faith’s religious rights.

    The decision has been appealed to the 10th Circuit by the attorneys general of Utah and Arizona, Lindberg and Bruce Wisan, the accountant who has managed the trust for the state since 2005.

    Benson’s injunction suspended Wisan’s authority and ordered that he turn over trust records to the church.

    Lindberg fired back with a competing order on Monday, directing Wisan to ignore Benson’s injunction.

    Additional papers filed with the appeals court late Thursday suggest the tension between the two courts may be coming to a head.

    According to Lindberg’s attorney, Benson threatened to “have the federal marshals bring Judge Lindberg before his court … to answer for her order.” The threat was allegedly made as Benson discussed the scheduling of a hearing with Lindberg’s attorney.

    Benson was expected to schedule a hearing to discuss Lindberg’s competing order on Monday.


    April 14, 2011 09:01 PM EDT

  266. Amen Ariel, let’s see some justice for the humans also.

  267. Willie better rein in Parker, otherwise he could be left out in the cold with the other “apostates”, even if he only considers himself a “disputed lost boy”

  268. If you look at the picture that Trent Nelson took of Bruce Wisan at the hearing before the Utah Supreme Court, almost right behind him is a Steed who has been nicknamed Forrest after Forrest Gump. To see him run across the courthouse lawn in Schleicher County is like watching Forrest Gump run.

    Also, he was barred from the courtroom after he was found to be carrying a recording device.


    Benson backed down.

  270. @ Ariel – I could be wrong but I think you are hoping for a reunion that happened last year in 2010. I think that’s what the facebook page refers to. I would have loved to attend that reunion but when I found out about it it was already over. I can’t pull it up right now but I think that is the case. I so hope I am wrong and if so, somebody please tell me, I would drive all the way down there even if my family couldn’t go with me.

  271. 3C, I think last year’s reunion was more in July and this one seems to be in June. I think it’s a new one.


    More stories about Judge Benson gone mad.

  273. Candi Shapley in the above [April 15, 12:07 AM video] did recant her testimony against Randolph Bralow, basically because she felt the guilty penalty was too severe and she views Randolph, like Elissa Wall views Allen Steed, as lead astray by their Prophet Warren S. Jeffs. Candi’s case today is mainly viewed by Arizona prosecutors as yet another successful witness tampering by the FLDS Church and leaders to fully avoid prosecution(s). They have not achieved the same level of success in Texas and Canada appears to be likely to impose their anti-polygamy statutes, as well. Other than Randolph Barlow, five additional FLDS Church men were convicted by Arizona in 2005 of illegal sex with minors and plural marriage verdicts, just as the YFZ Ranch was closing escrow and the ‘Zion Mission’ was being brought to Eldorado, Texas and Warren S. Jeffs was on the FBI ’10 Most Wanted’ list.

  274. How would one go about filing an ethics complaint against Judge Benson with the Bar Association ?

  275. Justices in the Court of Appeals have denied oral arguments in the Mike Emack Sexual Assault guilty plea appeal.

  276. It is set for disposition on the briefs on May 11, 2011.

  277. my birthday lol

    what a present.

    3c, I’ve got my fingers crossed it’s for this year. Talking to Uncle Roys granddaughter right now discussing it….

  278. Silly federal Judge throws temper tantrum, threatening to throw fellow Judge Lindberg and Bruce Wisan in jail stating they are in contempt of court.

    Read article:

    IMO this federal judge has become an embarrassment to the federal court system. I predict this going to US Supreme Court, and the FLDS won’t like the results.

  279. Ariel, who is behind Leroy Johnson’s Facebook page?

  280. PT, I wish I knew.

    I’m sure I could find out within a day however and I will do my best!

  281. But if he/she/they wishes to remain anonymous I will respect their wishes. My hunch says they won’t care….but just in case.

    Don’t want to piss off the (future) in-laws! lol

  282. Only in Mormon land….would people defend a theocracy as a religious tenet and having a federal judge support it.

  283. Judge Dee Benson SLAPPED DOWN by appeals court, appeals court issues stays on all of Benson’s rulings until the case can be heard in the Denver, CO appeals court.

  284. Here’s more on Benson getting faced slapped down by appeals court:

  285. Here’s the ruling:

  286. Here’s more on what’s a victory for Judge Lindberg:

  287. Proud Texan…It is two of his grandchildren,Stanley Jessop’s daughter and John Johnson’s daughter.

  288. I think it’s great that they are doing that and trying to put together a family reunion of sorts. Reunions are iffy propositions when you don’t have all the religious stuff going on. I can’t even imagine putting one together where everyone suspects everyone else of stuff.

  289. Warren must be fasting furiously, even turning down donuts!

  290. Tarsa LeBaron is scheduled for trial in Houston in two weeks. Anybody know if it will go? I find it odd there have been no docket filings since 12/14/2010. The motion deadline was a month ago.

  291. Correct me if I am wrong…but the FLDS Trust, while serving a “religious” community, is not actually established as a church trust. I thought that the FLDS has not actually registered as a religion. Can anyone confirm?

  292. The way I’ve understood it, the trust existed prior the work or FLDS.

  293. No, granny, prior to FLDS but not prior to the Work. Original trust was 1935. I was just reading an article about the disputes regarding its inception. It just preceded the first raid on Short Creek. That’s my understanding anyway.

  294. Here’s the article. It was a very trying time for everyone.

  295. This was reported eariler in the Eldorado Success, from a Utah TV station:

  296. For some reason that link didn’t work:

    From report it appears the federal investigation is still active, and ole Warren is still spouting off silliness.

  297. well, that is interesting. I wish the wheels of justice ground a little faster because so many people are still being hurt by these men

  298. But why the fact the Merrill Jessop is undergoing a fed investigation should stop him from facing the Texas court makes no legal sense to me. Maybe a lawyer could tell us if that is a legitimate motion or a hail Mary pass.

  299. It’s not preventing him from going to trial, Goldy is just looking for excuses to postpone it. My best guess is that Merril is actually really sick. Both congestive heart failure and renal problems were mentioned in Court according to those who were there.

    The defendant’s have known about the Federal evidence all along, they just never brought it up until the other day. I read the Eldorado Success article and it said there is a hearing in May and a pretrial in June. I’m guessing there will still be a trial this summer unless Goldy pulls another rabbit out of his hat.

  300. Maybe they are hoping that he will pass away naturally without ever having to face the music.

  301. Guess Merril is going to go out litigated to death. Fine way to end his crazy.

    Let that be a lesson to those that want to follow in his footsteps!

    Oh and I forgot, he just got exed too. All that effort for nothing!

  302. ‘One Man Rule’ is proving to be the worst form of presiding corporate bishop yet evolved by the FLDS Church. Rulon Jeffs belief that he was the last prophet, left the faithful wholly unprepared with a viable leader or leadership. Warren is now declaring his doomsday scenario from a jail cell and has demonstrated his dictatorial control of a floundering organization that is imploding and still employing the,’Answer Them Nothing’ axiom. The outcome is predictable and beside a major schism of the current faithful a showcase trial will put the entire sorted actions on public display of this failed leadership. The lack of a transition of power, beside ‘One Man Rule’ may well prove to be the truer ‘End-Time’ for the FLDS Church.

  303. We’ve seen others perform their own “doomsdays” – ie Jim Jones, David Koresh.

    Lets hope the FLDS ARENT drinking that koolaid.

  304. Has anyone seen this ? 1.7 billion pages of evidence regarding FLDS matters –,0,7152432.story

  305. The federal investigation would presumably be a RICO or interstate trafficking thing?

  306. Thanks 3C, for posting the link to the article about Short Creek. Interesting historical background reading this morning.

    Anything else you

  307. Has anyone seen this ? 1.7 billion pages of evidence regarding FLDS matters –,0,7152432.story

    Born in Brooklyn said this on April 17, 2011 at 6:05 PM

    Yes link for this story was posted this morning, so everyone’s been talking about it, but no news on Canada court case yet.

  308. @ granny – Sorry, I misunderstood – you were saying the same thing I was.

  309. I will post updates on the Canadian Case this evening if I get a chance, if not, tomorrow evening.

  310. I think it’s great that they are doing that and trying to put together a family reunion of sorts. Reunions are iffy propositions when you don’t have all the religious stuff going on. I can’t even imagine putting one together where everyone suspects everyone else of stuff.

    Proud Texan said this on April 15, 2011 at 9:56 PM

    Proud Texas, family reunions are a bit more challenging in polyg families because there is usually much more “fun” involved in making the event avoid the typical “dysfunctional” aspect of the family get-to-gether.

    My advice for success is to have it in a convenient locale – maybe Mazwell Canyon and hand out Xanax at the “door” as everyone enters. Or safer yet, have the invitees get their own Rx for Xanax and take it on the way to the reunion. That always works for me to encourage the Keep Sweet attitude!

    In a large polygamous family reunion, whats peace and fun without stress and aggression. Yes, the Xanax should do the trick to keep the “fun” in the LARGE dysfunctional family and let all participants feel comfortably at ease. It has worked for me and I highly recommend it.

  311. It seems Warren Jeffs has been very busy issuing warnings to Syria, Yemen, Iran, Sri Lanka, and Nicaragua – anyone know why ?

  312. I neglected to mention his warnings to Italy and Egypt…

  313. Yeah, why Nicaragua?
    Looks like a proclamation a day.
    He must be really bored, really really scared and trying to set up an insanity defense, or just really really scared because he does believe he is truly channeling God and the end is coming, or simply having a good laugh?

  314. Holy Book of Son of Ahman, Batman

    I hope Warren doesnt burn a Koran!

    Oh, and BTW, his warning to Japan about the Tsunami was a little late – that Prophet hat needs more tin foil…

  315. LOL, Anon @ 12:46 AM

  316. I count 19 prophetic warnings since 23 March, 2011 to Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iran, Italy(+Neighbors), Burma, Sri Lanka & Nicaragua. I think he’s sending a shoutout to all his polyg hommies in the Islamic world. I take it that Bahrain, Tunisia, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Morocco are in good stead with the homeboy?
    He definitely thinks the, ‘EndTime’ is nigh (near), sure is funny that the Good Lord still chooses to talk in the King James English. Should be raining fieballs from Heaven, any day now, of course this is going to look pretty silly if ‘Warrants’ mojo can’t keep him free from a guilty verdict and lifetime sentencing.

  317. Whom or what is a “Son of Ahman”?

  318. Adam-Ondi-Ahman is the term used for the Garden of Eden, Joseph Smith proclaimed it to be in Western Missouri, nearby Independence. The expression ‘Son of Ahman’ would indicate a descendant of Adam, from the region of the Garden of Eden or God’s Valley or could be interpreted as a reference to Jesus or Joseph Smith in the context that it is written. Warren Jeffs in his dictations has plans to build Thee Temple in this location once it is divined to him to do so.

  319. The “end-time” has been imminent since 1840. Here’s a fun news article on Edmund Barlow’s proclamations in the 1930’s.

  320. Pathetically self-important bozo Warren.

  321. No wonder Warren wouldn’t allow visitors in March. He had writings to attend to. Wonder if he’s continuing his writing into April or if he’s receiving visitors.

  322. Man battling for presidency of FLDS cited for trespassing

    By Jason Bergreen

    The Salt Lake Tribune
    First published 53 minutes ago
    Updated 7 minutes ago Updated Apr 18, 2011 10:58AM

    A Colorado man seeking to replace polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs as president of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was cited last week for trespassing at an address in Colorado City, Ariz.

    Police on April 14 ticketed William Edson Jessop, 41, for trespassing at 160 N. Oak St., according to records filed with the Colorado City Consolidated Court in Moccasin, Ariz. The ticket does not specify what is at the address or what Jessop did to warrant the citation.

    Read more –

  323. Funny thing about that ticket is that Alan Jeffs, brother to Lyle, is the one whonreported the trespass. What he forgot to tell the officers was that he too was trespassing since the lease isn’t in his name.

    William was at the residence to see his wives.

  324. Great article Third Cousin. I had never heard Edmund Barlow referred to as the leader, only John Y.

    I loved the “returning missionaries” description used for the 2 men released from prison.

  325. What??? You can be cited for trespass even if you’re there at the invitation of lessee?

  326. You can if the police are FLDS and you have been kicked out.

  327. @ anon 12:22 – I’m unsure whether this is Albert Edmund Barlow son of Ianthius and Chloe or John Y’s brother Edmund Francis.

  328. Another reason Mohave Cty needs to put in REAL cops instead of those CC Keystone jokers.

  329. Isn’t this straight out of a Big Love plot? I’m feeling sort of deja vu all over again.

  330. Sometimes I think that part of the country is the center of the Twilight Zone…

  331. I am hearing that books that got donated to start a small library was broken into last Saturday and the books burned. Anyone know anything else. If the cops can arrest William T for trying to visit a wife, how can they turn their backs on a book burning like this?

  332. The FLDS’ response to Judge Lindberg’s Motion in the 10th Circuit

  333. Holy cow, cement. A family member of mine is putting that library together. Heard anything more? I really hope it’s not true.

  334. I believe it is true and The HOPE Organization had about $15,000 (or maybe more) in donated books sitting in that building that was broken into and vandalized, then the books were removed and burned.

    Be prepared to hear more about it as the facts and evidence come out and the s**t starts hitting the fan.

    These people who would do this are NOT part of a religion. They are mean, cruel and evil. They are worse than scum.

    They need to have their butts thrown in jail!

  335. If it’s left to the CC/Hildale police to investigate, then, nothing is gonna happen! It’s really sad. NO KNOWLEDGE ALLOWED! I think the Twilight Zone analogy, above, was spot on!

  336. @ anonymous 12:46 am please please be kidding….

    I’m shocked and upset at a book burning. What kind of a creep would do that? Books are treasures!!!!

    This makes me so sad….

    I almost feel sorry for the book burnners. How terrible to be blinded by such hate and ignorance (a deadly combination I have learned) that you must resort to destroying words that can never phyically harm you.

    And what cowards. What FU****g cowards. They must sneak around in the cover of night and burn books anonymously because they AREN’T man enough to go out and try to instate their cause legally.

    I hope they feel good. I really do. I hope they feel like they’ve just answered the highest calling in their pathetic little lives. Idiots.

  337. This is devastating and disgusting. There were thousands of books. I certainly hope the historic building wasn’t permanently damaged.

    I guess we can either waste our time cussing them out or we can get to collecting more books.

  338. It’s true, the books were burned, here’s a news media report complete with pictures of the burned books.

    Very sad story books burned.

  339. Actually, it is my understanding that the arsonists did their book burning during the day.

    Facts are still sketchy. I will post more as I learn more.

    And yes there WERE thousands of books worth many thousands of dollars.

    They are indeed pathetic cowards. I hope they’ll be held accountable for their actions and the destruction of someone else’s property.

  340. Let’s not go collecting more books until there is a safer place to store them. We don’t want to give those sick bastards anymore fuel for their fire!

    Piles of books burned in FLDS border town; would-be president cited in separate incident

    By Emiley Morgan, Deseret News

    COLORADO CITY, Ariz. — Piles of books — perhaps thousands — intended to be used for a new library were burned over the weekend in the polygamous community that borders Utah.

    In a separate incident, an elder in the Fundamentalist LDS Church who has challenged Warren Jeffs for the presidency of the sect was cited for trespassing last week.

    The large number of books being stored for a library were reportedly set fire on Saturday. Isaac Wyler, a member of the Colorado City, Ariz. community, said he went to survey the damage on Monday and discovered warm ashes and book fragments.

    “There is a bonfire outside that clearly has books that have burned in it,” Wyler said. “I can’t say every book has been burned, because I haven’t seen the inside. I can’t get in there to see.”

    Bruce Wisan, who has been appointed by the state to oversee management of an FLDS trust, said the books were being housed in a old schoolhouse.

    “It was supposed to be a library,” he said. “The trust wanted to deed it to the county, but (one man) went to the county supervisors and told them that we shouldn’t be taking church property and there would be lawsuit.”

    It is believed that there were thousands of books in the building, including some which had been donated by Barnes and Noble Booksellers. Wyler said he is not sure how many books were destroyed as he could not gain access to the schoolhouse.

    “My keys no longer fit the door anymore,” he said. “They’ve blocked all the windows, you can’t look in and see. My guess is there’s not a book in this building.”

    read more –

  341. ok, so in the day time then….

    And yes 3c, you’re quite right. I should quit my bellyaching and help.

    I should like to donante Ayn Rand and randomly, Lemony Snicket.

  342. Book burners sure will have to answer a lot, if they want to go to Heaven.
    Desperate misguided people ! Did they learn that from Hitler? Mayne the only book not burned was ” Mein Kampf”.

  343. C-M, so interiesting you should bring Nazi Germany into this…

    In (a treasured) BOOK of mine;

    THE POLYGAMISTS, A History of Colorado City, Arizona by Benjamin Bistline

    ****The next day, January 23, 2004, Ross Chatwin held a press conference at his home in Colorado city. Ross Chatwin is a young man in his early thirties who was recently told to leave his home and his wife and family, and leave the community. This message was sent to him from Warren Jeffs by James Zitting. The following is taken from a prepared speech that he read to about 50 reporters from all over the country who attended his press conference. It reads as follows****

    The book goes on to tell about Ross revealing to reporters the sickening abuse of money and other bad acts by Jeffs, including the hearbreaking habit of tearing families apart and all under religious guise.

    back to the book and Ross….

    **** “This Hitler-like dictacor has got to be stopped before he ruins us all and this beautiful town”

    Ross then held up a book saying “Warren has studdied this book for many years. It is what he uses as a guideline to govern this community and control the people”

    Someone then asked: “what is the book?”

  344. Gives me chills, Ariel!

  345. Heinrich Heine:

    Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen

    “When people burn books, they will also burn people”.

  346. Daphne Bramham demands the same justice for the girls of Bountiful that the Canadian sled dogs received.

  347. and THAT my friend, gives me the chills.

  348. You know what? I’ll keep the books. 650 miles should be cushion enough.

  349. Did I mention we’re insured by Smith & Wesson? Admin delete me if necessary!

  350. lol 3c

  351. I’m insured by Beretta myslef, but Smith and Wesson works too.

  352. Just did a search on the Twin City Courier, Inc. business in Utah who is offering Warren’s proclamations and it appears to be registered to Ezra L. Nielsen. That’s Wendell’s son, so there in lies the question of whether 1. Ezra is still in or left with his father and 2. If Ezra still has the business and left with his father, he’s mass producing Warren’s stupid proclamations. SWEET!!!

  353. more on the barbaric Hitler-like book burning behavior of the FLDS:

    Books for polygamous town’s library burned, officials say

    By Aaron Falk

    The Salt Lake Tribune
    First published 2 hours ago
    Updated 4 minutes ago Updated Apr 18, 2011 10:23PM

    Hundreds of books intended for a library in the border town of Colorado City, Ariz., were burned in a bonfire over the weekend, officials and community members say.

    “They’ve tried for years to wash any kind of cultural thing they do here,” resident Isaac Wyler said of the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which comprises most of the population of the town.

    Some community members have been “trying to get this library going for years and there’s been vandalism and things like that. This is just one more hurdle,” Wyler said.

    Wyler said the ashes from the weekend fire were still warm as he picked up the damaged pages of a medical book Monday.

    The library was the brainchild of Stefanie Colgrove, who was raised in the area controlled by the FLDS, but does not follow the polygamous sect’s faith.

    “I was just thinking if there was something you could give to the community and help them realize life is going to go on and help them be more open to reality, I was thinking a library would do that,” Colgrove told The Tribune in 2008. “It is like music, it spans generations and covers a lot of different backgrounds.”

    Elaine Tyler, of The Hope Organization, a nonprofit group that helped collect books for the library, estimated the damage at about $15,000.

    “I think it’s a hate crime,” said Paul Murphy, a spokesman for the Utah Attorney General’s Office. “The fact that so many people from the community and outside the community rallied together to get those books there — to have someone come in and burn them is just outrageous.”

    Murphy personally delivered thousands of books to the twin towns of Hildale and Colorado City in 2008.

    “I just remember an outpouring of people who really wanted to see something good for the community,” Murphy said. “For someone to burn them, they should be ashamed. I’m hoping the police take it seriously and find out who did it and make sure they’re held accountable.”

    Read more –

  354. Now, a little advice. If you are planning on obtaining Warren’s collection of proclamations and other assorted writings, order from flds. org and not the .com version. The org has “Thus Saith Son Ahman, the Lord Jesus Christ, to the Nations of the Earth: A Message and Warning, Mine Own Words from the Heavens 2011-03-31. This very important collector’s edition is missing from the .com site and any Warren Jeffs’ collector wouldn’t want to be without it.

    But seriously, do Yemen, Syria, Egypt, Burma and Sri Lanka care what Warren has to say? And a better question still is, can they read English.

  355. Well, if there is any good to this, its that the news of this further act of abuse on the community will be telegraphed to the

    10th circuit court who will be deciding these fools fates soon….


  356. Based on the quantity of crazy coming out of his jail cell, It is hard for me to believe that WSJ’s legal counsel is in fact, providing legal counsel.

    I guess we will know if Kearney is going for an insanity defense at the next pretrial.

    According to

    DEFENSE. (a) A defendant planning to offer evidence of the
    insanity defense must file with the court a notice of the
    defendant’s intention to offer that evidence.
    (b) The notice must:
    (1) contain a certification that a copy of the notice has
    been served on the attorney representing the state; and
    (2) be filed at least 20 days before the date the case is set
    for trial, except as described by Subsection (c).
    (c) If before the 20-day period the court sets a pretrial
    hearing, the defendant shall give notice at the hearing.

    (read down to Art. 46C.051.)

    This is an article on the insanity defense in TX

    I guess the question will be, will the jury accept the argument that mental illness mean that Jeff’s cannot be held criminally accountable?

    Now I’m not a lawyer and law is not my field of study, but a big component of the insanity defense in TX law is:

    “…that a defendant should not be held responsible for his actions only if, due to his mental disease or defect, he (i) did not know that his act would be wrong; or (ii) did not understand the nature and quality of his actions”

    This is from wikipedia on the M’Naghten Rules, which is a component of the standard used in TX.

    Now I don’t have all of Jeff’s writing at hand, but doesn’t he talk about keeping some of the celestial marriages he performed/participated in secret because they were against the law?

    I’d really love to know what kind of defense Kearney is planning to mount here!

    Oh and the book burning?

    Wow. Just wow.

  357. Well, I have a hard time believing WSJ will go for insanity plea. Sure, he IS insane and maybe it will get him off the legal hook – maybe. But, it will destroy his image as the one God talks to for the whole wide world. My bet is he won’t do it. I think he would rather be a martyr in jail than free and declared insane.

  358. Did I miss a trick? Is he going with that insanity defense, or are we just thinking this MIGHT be a tactic?

  359. I think observing is speculating.

    If Kearney is dumb enough to go for the insanity defense, Nichols is smart enough to use Warren’s dictations to show that he knew what he was doing was wrong and he did it anyway.

  360. I wonder if Warren thinks the TDCJ prisons are cushy like the Reagan County jail.

  361. If you’ve ever wondered just how stupid Bill Medvecky is, here’s your answer. He’s claiming that the books were burned to prevent an outbreak of Measles.

    With all else miserably failing for them, the bigots and haters are running out of time. Just exactly HOW do we eradicate these filthy Mormons from the twin towns of Hildale, UT and Colorado City, AZ ?

    The folks in the twin towns have been actively involved with setting up a “Lending Library” for the adults and children of the F LDS Church. I myself have been recruited in their efforts, and have sent shipments of books from Florida towards that effort. Today, those books have had to be destroyed.

    During a recent inventory, it was discovered that several shipments of books were arriving from Europe unsolicited and without return addresses that could be verified. The question had to be asked; who was sending them, and how did they learn of the program?

    Out of an abundance of caution given the times we live in and the poisonous atmosphere or hate and bigotry leveled against their women and children, taking the chance that these books were not “Indian blankets” arriving on their doorstep, the decision was made to destoy the books and avoid the possible “Necessity” of the State’s of Utah and Arizona to “Protect and defend” the twin towns.

    Having experienced the “Protection and defense” of their Trust, and having experienced that same level of “Protection” for their children in Texas, one can hardly blame them for looking upon these new “Gifts” as a Trojan horse sent by the bigots and haters.

    As to “Who would EVER do such a thing?”, I would have asked that very same question; BEFORE they kidnapped and raped 465 children for merely belonging to the “Wrong” religion.

  362. Chaps –

    Nothing has been filed to indicate that he is at this time.

    You’d think (and I’m likely expressing my ignorance of the legal system in questioning this) his attorney would advise against some of his more public jail cell activities!

    But then again, maybe Kearney has!

  363. Observing, if Kearney suggests something that Warren doesn’t like, he’ll just fire him.

  364. Bill Medvecky is such an ignorant, lying fool. It would almost be funny … if he wasn’t so pathetic.

  365. Yes, that story is totally ridiculous. Measles from a book; what they are really worried about catching is critical thinking skills or the view that the outside world is maybe not all evil.

    And let’s ask the question….who owned the books, who had a legal lease of the property and who actually burned them? If they aren’t your property, your reasons don’t really matter, it’s still arson.

  366. Did I read that this book burning, lock changing, window covering was done in broad daylight?

  367. Yep Uncle Thread. I’ve also heard there is video of the burning incident.

  368. If there is a concern regarding the transmission of measles from books, may I ask why the children are not vaccinated ? I think that transmission of measles is rare from books, but I will check for a literature reference …

  369. See the CDC statement on transmission of measles
    – in order for the books to be infectious, someone with active measles infection would have to inoculate the book with the virus (ie sneezing on book) and the book would have to be given to someone else in Hildale / Colorado City rather quickly. If the concern was genuine, the books could have been quarantined for a period of time by order of their own physicians… and I doubt the book burners even consulted one of their physicians or nurses regarding their concern…

  370. This is ludicrous. First, Bill didnt donate squat, as his buddies havent asked him for books, it goes against their “keep ignernt, keep sweet and stfu” mantra.

    Then, his post on the Trib was a hoot – with unknowns posting on his mental stability.

    This looks like a story they concocted to cover their tracks. But if you are ignernt and paranoid, yeah books might be something to fear.

    Internet too, you can get the plague from that!

  371. Oh, I think that either Bill made that up, or whoever he talks to in the FLDS (sic) made it up. I can guarantee you that it takes more than 4 days to ship books to the US from Europe; more like 4 weeks unless you spend way more on shipping than the books are worth. I find the whole idea that books came from Europe to start with to be suspect, since in most cases it would have been cheaper to send money here and have someone buy books rather than ship them that far. Books are heavy. And why are people in Europe (where in general preventative health care is free) are more likely to have measles than Americans? Also, if the books from Europe were in discreet package, why not just throw them in the trash and keep the other books? The whole story defies common sense; he’s just making up a story to excuse terrible behavior, nothing unusual here. The sad thing is we will probably hear this measles story for years now from people dumb enough to believe him.

  372. can someone place a link to Bill’s comment on the Trib Chaps is referring to ?

  373. Another reason the whole idea of the noble FLDS members trying diligently to build a library but being foiled by the evil outsiders is stupid…..who destroyed the library they already had? They did.

  374. String of his other rant, and replies:


    Bill Medvecky [Moderator] 4 hours ago
    I’m not sure what part of an “Un Constitutional taking” the bigots and haters do not understand.

    The twin towns are an occupied territory. The are being ruled by a force that the United States government said was not legal. There is NO DIFFERENCE between occupied France during the last war and the twins towns, and the exact same rules apply; expect opposition to the New Nazi’s.

    Now you might not like the Federal Court’s Ruling, but unless you want to do away with the Constitution, you follow it.

    There is no way the 10th Circuit is going to overrule Judge Benson, the States blatant abuse of the Constitutional rights of that Church to appease the Quorum is simply too overwhelming for them to overcome, as was the kidnapping and rape of the children in Texas.

    In your zeal to destroy them, like the totally idiotic move by Texas to present almost two BILLION pages of “Discovery” against Jeffs to ensure his conviction, you over-reached to the point of no return for the REAL Court’s to uphold the silliness such as Lindberg’s hissy fit at not getting her way.

    Will the Courts pat Lindberg on the back for publicly trashing a Legal Court Order? Ask any first year Law student.

    By the way, Wisan was found guilty of trespassing and had a trial along with Wyler who claims to be “Too sick” to defend himself. So where’s the sentencing Decision? Wyler can’t make it into Court, but he sure can make himself available to the media for a Mormon bashing. How is that?

    As to the books being destroyed, it’s my understanding some of those books were shipped into the twin towns from Europe. Would the bigots and haters have books contaminated with Measles sent into the community to decimate it? Would Texas kidnap 465 children and have them systematically raped under the guise of SANE examinations?

    If there were a Measles outbreak in the twin towns (Accidentally, of course), would the State then move to “Protect” the community?

    Just EXACTLY what are the bigots and haters capable of?

    Ask the children of the YFZ Ranch!


    Proud Texan 1 hour ago in reply to Bill Medvecky

    Someone needs to quit telling lies about things that didn’t happen. For one, there was never any SANE exams given to the children from the Ranch, 2nd Wisan hasn’t been found guilty yet. No verdict has been rendered 3rd, the books from Europe weren’t “unsolicited”, they were in response to a request that was put out through Libraries across the US and the World. It was an open call for donations to a new library that was being started.

    Kittens_and_Jesus [Moderator] 2 hours ago in reply to Bill Medvecky
    Wow… just wow… There was rape at the YFZ ranch, but it wasn’t the government doing it.

    the_legal_eagle 2 hours ago in reply to Bill Medvecky

    I’ve read some ridiculous rants on here before, but yours has to rank at the top as the most ridiculous. WWII France and Colorado City are equivalent? I’m sure there are a few million people spinning in their graves right now at the mere suggestion. You’re a nut.

    mach_schnell 1 hour ago in reply to the_legal_eagle

    A better comparison would be Colorado City and Jonestown, Guyana.

    FormerAF 3 hours ago in reply to Bill Medvecky

    Someone is off his medications.

  375. Pt from yesterday: Ezra is Wendells brother not son. He was raised by James Zitting.

  376. Who is Bill Medvecky to say anything of substance or worth on this blog. He has been proven to not have command of events and his viewpoint has been invalidated, as much as ‘Warrants’ prophecies. I don’t see anyone here taking Jeffs ‘Warnings’ seriously and Bill ‘Madewacky’ is in a similar circumstance on any credibility.

  377. He DOES have a right to express his opinion, though. Like it or not…

  378. Yes he does have a right to express his opinions, even if those opinions are not based on facts or scientific evidence.

  379. Didnt mean to give him a soapbox – meant to point out the crazy that seems to emanate from the cluster…

  380. Are anyones comments on this blog based on fact or scientific evidence??? omfg

  381. It was quite amusing Chaps, no need to apologize.

  382. In response to your query, OMG, yes.

  383. in response to your answer S, I call bull***t

  384. Measles is not transmitted by books of any kind, unless someone sneezes on the text and hands it to someone else within two hours. The appropriate response to concerns regarding infectious diseases being transmitted by books would be a medical literature review and public health officer consultation, not book burning.

  385. Seven convicted FLDS members, two of whom plead their sentence, are facts that Bill nor even you omg can deny. Of late the believers in ‘Warrant’ Jeffs innocence have disappeared, omg do you care to voice your full faith and confidence in Jeffs not having done what his is charged with committing? Where are all the voices to proclaim his innocence and why has Modern Pharisee stopped his endorsement of Jeffs and now calls him a ‘false prophet’?

    Madewacky views hold no crdence here for me and his own blog traffick trickle speaks for itself.

  386. So what I think you’re saying CAJim is that, since I can’t prove it to be false, it must be true.? Something cannot be proved not to be, only to be. Therein lies the error of blogs. Statements made are mostly a matter of opinion and are highly biased, something that can’t be controlled. Therefore, for anon 1:07 to insinuate that one has the right to their opinion even though the opinion is not based on scientific evidence or fact, is stating the obvious and insults everyone’s intelligence.

  387. The FACT remains that measles is not transmitted by reading textbooks, although people have the right to say anything they like regarding the matter, even if it is erroneous.

  388. Lol….measles. I’m so sure…

    So they think Europe is still under the grips of the plague or something? When they have governments, technology and health care comprable or superior to our own.

    Lies lies lies. That they actually expect us to believe. That blows my mind they think we’re that stupid. Or maybe they’re used to having their lies swallowed….by the FLDS…so they think we’re just as easy to hoodwink?

  389. So omfg/omg congratulations for not, again, answering the questions and what we are not supposed to notice? So what is the true facts about the FLDS priesthood men that stand guilty and convicted (two pleas of guilty and Allen Steed plead guilty, as well), if they possess any facts or counter truth they shoould have presented it in the Courtroom. My view about the guilt or innocence was guided by the Jury verdicts. Seven felony convictions is not a personal opinion, it constitutes a crime wave. If you’ve noticed i haven’t stated my view on WS Jeffs charges, the Jury, Judge and Court will lead me to the facts and iron clad conclusion. As another fact, I know that the FLDS Church members do not marry and fail to consummate the marriage, otherwise the celestial seal was never made. As the seven convictions to date have factually proven the DNA of the offspring doesn’t lie nor form an opinion. The accused that negotiated plea bargains reaffirms the guilty verdicts and Michael Emack just lost his appeal so he stands convicted of both rape and bigamy.

  390. Well said CAJim.

  391. If Medvecky has factual information about why the books were burned he must have received it from those involved in the crime. In that case he should be questioned and investigated. If Medvecky is just blowing smoke and has no real information, he should let people know that his comment is 100% speculation on his part.

    Fact: Allan Keate was sentenced to 33 years in prison on a charge of sexual abuse of a child. This after 5 hours of deliberation by the jury.

  392. So what books are the European’s sending; books in French, German, Dutch and Italian? Other than England I can’t imagine other countries would be able to contribute – not to mention what the poster said earlier – cost of shipping would not be worth it.

    Nope, think again Bill, I am sure you and the perps can come up with a better story than that.

  393. Question, were there really any books from Europe?

  394. omfg

    Have ya seen the pics of Warren with his little children errr brides?

    Do ya know that these convictions in TX came along with DNA proof of sexual molestation?

    Yes, we have lots of facts and science – though as we’ve see in Shortcreek lately, the FLDS dont seem bothered with those concepts much.

  395. If you have not seen those shocking pictures of pedophilia, I encourage any and all defending these criminals to look at THE FACTS

    Look on the blogroll our Admin has kindly set up for us on the right of the page and click on The Hope Org.

    Then tell us YOUR facts.

  396. Hey RICO, dontchakno that when a plural wife gets reassigned ‘presto-ka-change-o’ her childrens DNA morphs to the New Daddy’s DNA. Howz dat for hard biblical skool science? At least that’s the profit told them and they believed him. Go figure, omfg.

  397. And the cool thing is, they can change the rules on the fly!

    No matter Warren is quoted 3 times (COUNT EM THREE) that he is the most wicked man on earth, that he stole position, and Jessop is the profit.

    OOOPS ! Erase that thought! Three times OK!

  398. I can KNOW for a FACT that at least ONE of the stories featured there is FALSE!!! AND the FACTS misrepresented. As a result, I don’t take ANY of them as fact.

  399. Ok then, expound to us in greater detail just which one is false and why. Back it up.

    Because we can all use a little more knowledge.

  400. My guess? He knows it’s not a fact because it’s talking about him and/or his close family.

  401. If there are things that are published on there that are not facts, it should be corrected. I’m all about finding out the truth, helpful or hurtful as it may be.

    I would hope the rumours are kept to a minimum and the editors are striving to keep the facts straight, because it’s a good site with people on it trying to do the right things (inform and help) the best they know how.

  402. Where’s Fred?

  403. I’m sure he’ll show up later tonight to add his two cents worth.

  404. Why does Mudpucky rate?

  405. Madwhacker was banned last I knew – his posts were put up to show he is still crazy as ever…

    Am I right?

  406. That’s my thought on the matter too Stamp. His blog got shut down because he was posting pictures he wasn’t supposed to and so now he goes around and posts his crap elsewhere. His own blogspot area is a place to go to get a good chuckle or 2.

  407. a non, @6:42, the stories featured on where? You mean Medvecky’s site or are we talking about something else?

  408. Hey OMFG –

    You wouldn’t know the truth or facts if they hit you in the face, so




  409. Fred, you are my hero.

  410. [[I am in love with Fred!!! He always knows the right thing to say. Whatta guy!]]

  411. just for the record guys, wsj and his clan can all burn in hell and ya, i think they’re guilty. I’m just asking everyone not to read something on here and just take it as fact. as for the book burning, good hell i want to get my hands on whoever thought that was a good idea. I just hope my fam wasn’t involved and it’s hard for me to accept the fact that they’re still supporting that crap.

    thanks fred, i needed a good f. it helps me relax.

  412. Well I really LOVE Fred becuse he’s a man of few words but always well chosen.

    How come nobody will stick up for the profit’s innocence? They’re probably all too busy reading his phonbook of ‘Warnings’ Why doesn’t omfg read one of those and give us a bookreport on the missing scientific facts and evidence? Fred I think ‘Warrant’ keeps reminding everyone of his wicked ways, just in case, the Rapture occurs and he’s still here with Madewacky.

  413. omf

    Well, there is some 1.7 BILLION pages of evidence, heaven forbid anyone takes it serious – I’ve never heard of such a blizzard of goose feathers.

    Unfortunatly for Warren home-boy, those feathers are gonna cook his goose/

    I think I speak for a lot of folks, I dont want the rank and file peeps harmed.

    But some of those guys deserve long, dark sentences, and Texas is givin it to them hand over fist.

  414. The man interviewed in this video from 4:00 – 7:00 is a long lost relative of mine who, years ago, ran off and joined the TLC group in Manti. It’s funny seeing him in this context.

    It is my understanding that he eventually parted ways with that group, and has rejoined the LDS church with his first wife. If so, it’s anyones guess what became of the other 2 wives; reassigned, I suppose. Talk about buyers remorse…

  415. CAJim, you read it man! I could barely make it through the first 2 paragraphs before i realized banging my head on a rock was so much more fulfilling!

  416. 3-C, I was talking about the “hope” site. Someone refered to it as factual. It most certainly is NOT!!!

    BTW, Fred. Your education is showing…

  417. Thanks, a non. Is some of it correct?

  418. Thanks a non,

    FU too



  419. OMFG, do you have copies of the newest proclamations?

    I’d love to know what Warren told the Sri Lankans and Burmese people. Wouldn’t it be special for them to have a Proclamation from a looney tune in jail in Texas for felony sexual assault on a girl who had just had her 12th birthday. Do you realize that when Warren’s trial starts in July, Merrianne will still be a minor. She’ll turn 17 on July 3. Jury selection is scheduled to start 2 days before her 4th wedding anniversary.

  420. omg Fred, I think I know who you are!!! Don’t you install cable??


    … know : )

  421. What is “not factual” on the HOPE site ?

  422. 3C, the Hope site is mostly links to newspaper articles about events that have occurred dealing with the FLDS. I give it an A for accuracy. Don’t listen to a non, he/she is an FLDS apologist.

  423. No I don’t install cable – but you do, OMFG

    So FU,



  424. OMFG, you’re thinking of Larry. He’s Fred’s 1/2 cousin 18 times removed by another mother.

  425. S, the Hope site is very factual, it’s just the apologist who want everyone to believe that it isn’t. They don’t want the truth out there.

  426. The “Hope” part?

    Well, I know for a fact they do a lot of good.

    Despite those people who arent happy an agency can actually give these prisoners of CreekCrack HOPE.

  427. Thank you PT, I am curious as to what this poster deems to be “non factual” material, given that most of the postings on the HOPE site are articles from journals or newspapers

  428. Stamp, I think CrackCreek is a better description!!! Sometimes I wonder if it is passed out in their PH meetings so everyone will follow the rules that seem to change on a whim.

  429. No PT, I have absolutely nothing to contribute in the way of WSJ’s crazy edicts. Although, I’m pretty sure (knowing Warren), they’re just the same thing repeated with locations changed, and something about the Kuran being “of the devil” my god’s gonna kill your god blah blah blah.

    Ya, Warren with a twelve year old, now that’s sick. Aside from the crime, and no one that was a party to the crime acknowledging a crime was committed, the worst part is Warren will never admit he is a child molester. At least other admitted child molesters admit they have a problem when they’re sitting in prison.

    (all statements are merely speculation, and should not be considered fact)
    (you’re welcome for that)

  430. Hey 3C, you keeping a tight reign on the cousins these days? I haven’t found any good mug shots all week!!!

  431. You’re in fine form tonight PT, you too Fred! Welcome, interesting new OMFG.

  432. I’m guessing that the parts about the Kuran being “of the devil” aren’t going to play to well in Iran and other countries. It’s just one more crazy thing that can be chalked up to Warren being an idiot.

    BTW, who’s living in the newly build gated house in CrackCreek? Anyone know?

  433. That’s ’cause every mug shot is a book not burned, PT.

  434. let me help you all out a little bit.

    blogs – not accurate
    websites ending .com – not accurate
    websites ending .org – slightly more accurate as long as articles are cited
    websites ending .edu – pretty accurate.
    newspaper articles – it depends. (ask yourself “did the concerned parties comment, and were they cited?”)
    journals – pretty accurate (citations?)

    Willie Jessop – nope (i get embarrassed watching that dude lie, especially to Oprah man!)

    (again, you’re all welcome)

  435. i made all that up

  436. It isn’t the Kuran, it is the Qu’ran.

    FU, your lack of education is showing.



  437. “At least other admitted child molesters admit they have a problem when they’re sitting in prison.”

    Sadly, many of them don’t admit that they have a problem.

  438. ooohh nice Fred, the cable guy! THAT was a good comeback!

  439. True S. I was watching that new show “Our America” with Lisa Ling. The episode about sex offenders. Some of the S.O.’s were like, “ya, I did that, that’s who I am.” Others were just coming to grips with their new identity and finding it really hard to accept it.

    I don’t know if these guys could ever change, and I certainly wouldn’t allow them around my kids. But for them to realize who they actually are, at least they begin to identify themselves.

    Warren Jeffs on the other hand, has himself pretty convinced that everything he does comes from God and is therefore righteous. That’s just evil man! EVIL!

  440. I will try to post an article on sex offenders and the difficulties with their rehabilitation.

  441. Welcome omfg!

    I ❤ Fred.

    I think I will buy of copy of Warrens warnings to the world.

    Just for a bit of light hearted reading. I'm sooo curious….

    Admit it….you are too….

  442. omfg, traditional help programs say admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

    If he were to realize he has a problem, would you think he is capable of change and remorse? And would he ever reflect this upon the community? i.e change the laws and strictness and blah blah?

  443. Ariel, would you trust the printer with your credit card information ?

  444. Better yet, they take personal checks- how quaint.

  445. No I would not!

    Thanks S.

    I guess its back to the drawing table…

  446. I’m considering a cashier’s check and an unmarked po box for delivery to get the documents. I added it up and it’s a total of $57.

  447. I don’t even let my land lord have personal checks from me! Cashiers check would be the only way to go.

    hmmm…..New high heels? Or crazy guys ramblings?


  448. Is there nothing better we can think of to do with $57 dollars?

  449. I love you, Fred!

  450. Here is a link to a book chapter on the psychological profiles of pedophiles and rapists.

  451. Ariel, I will admit that the wave of warnings is a curiosity to me but I doubt that they are worthwhile reading.

    OMFG if you care to indicate any points on this blog that aren’t factual I, like Betty, would like to remedy any inaccuracy. It is not the intent of most posters here to spread any spin or misinformation. The legal documents posted here are free of charge and intended to allow anyone to form their own facts or beliefs. Offering a vague critique and no specifics is devoid of a genuine instance to doubt or question any truths or facts. I have read occasional challenges and complaints which we do redress but we provide far more background and details than most first media press coverages provide. This blog has maybe 25,000 to 30,000 postings in the ‘General Discussion’ section alone and over 650,000+ visitors so the vast majority of readers have found worthwhile information. When it comes to stating factual points or sound science help us correct any bad info and most bloggers here will be better informed.

  452. with regard to the rehabilitation of pedophiles, treatment has not been definitively found to an effective deterrent to recidivism – even if the offender admitted he / she had engaged in aberrant behavior.

    “Of all justice system policies, therapy for sex offenders has received by far the most extensive evaluation. In regard to adult offenders, the only evaluation that used the gold-standard experimental design (that is, it divided participants randomly into treatment and no-treatment groups) concerned a relapse-prevention therapy treatment program that in the end proved to have NO EFFECT on recidivism.”

  453. Holy cow, S., I’m not finding this all that readable as a lay person, but pedophiles thriving in situations of “family isolation” and “a patriarchal family structure.” How much more Short Creek / FLDS can we get?

    Additionally, i applaud anybody who focuses their work on assisting victims of sexual abuse, but did you ever notice that the only people who ever insist that it is rehabilitable are from SANE, who may do wonderful work but depend for their very existence on the idea of pedophilia being rehabilitable?

  454. New page / thread maybe? Getting cumbersome. I don’t know why you do what you do but, wow, thanks!

  455. Here’s more on the madness of the book burners from TV station:

    Appears they are going to try again to get library up and going, can’t let the NAZI like goons get away with their crimes IMO.

  456. Gee, I didn’t know that you could deduce truthiness just by the domain name! Wow, wish I’d had omfg to instruct me years ago, think of all the time I”ve wasted. (SARCASM MODE)

    Actually, determining facts on the internet takes a little more critical thinking than just applying broad rules based on the name or the source. Checking references is always a good idea.

  457. Here is an article published by Dr Janet Bennion on the risk factors for sexual abuse of girls in fundamentalist Mormon communities. Dr. Bennion sent a questionnaire to the therapists of all convicted sex offenders who were found guilty of incest in the state of Utah, and she identified that about 40% of all sex offenders who committed incest in Utah were fundamentalist Mormons, even though it has been estimated that less than 5% of the population of Utah are members of Mormon fundamentalist groups.

  458. S.
    It is early in the morning. I checked in an noted your amazing perseverance in posting peer reviewed literature – so I said to myself: Note comment on how wonderful S is.
    Then I went and got by breakfast and opened your last link “Sexual Abuse of Females in Rural-Mormon Fundamentalist Communities” and then I made a new note to myself: Some of this literature should come with warnings – do not read prior to or during breakfast.

  459. I note that the Mayo Clinic website ends with dot com. I guess that means they are full of it, hunh?

  460. In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] In addition to the offending poster, the noun troll can also refer to the provocative message itself, as in “that was an excellent troll you posted”.

    From Wikipedia. Which has a dot com on it, so it’s probably just bs.

  461. FACTS:

    No books were ever donated to the HOPE org from anyone in Europe for the Colorado City library.

    No books were ever donated to the HOPE org from anyone in Florida for the Colorado City library. Bill Medvecky is lying about ever donating any books to them or being involved in creating that public library.

    The articles posted on the HOPE org web site are written by journalists and reporters. They are NOT written by HOPE org. If someone disputes what is in the articles, they need to take it up with the reporter who wrote or said what is disputed.


    The books were stored in the schoolhouse for over a year. I doubt if there were any measles germs or communicable disease cooties living on them after a year sitting in a building (that is assuming that there ever were any germs on the books, which I highly doubt).

  462. Do ya suppose it’s a mudpuckyite?

  463. The “true stories” section is the one to which I refer. It has nothing to do with “newspaper stories.”

  464. a non, please point out where the “true stories” pages are not compiled from articles written by reporters and or journalists.

  465. The thing about personal accounts is this. One person can tell their own story of an actual event quite honestly. Another person who was there can tell their version of the same event, and also be honest. These two stories will not give the same picture of the event and might be completely contradictory. That’s part of the process when you are a juror and you start trying to sift through the various views of things for the truth.

    For instance, my oldest uncle on my mother’s side was a very well respected person, high rank in the military, and he was very religious. He was active in his church, insisted on prayers and a spiritual context to all of our family gatherings, etc. And my mother would not let me be alone around him, her own brother, and almost had to be hospitalized for a case of nerves when my father arranged for that same uncle to drive me several hours from one family members home to my parents. (He did not touch me, but he did have a VERY strange idea of appropriate conversation topics for an 11 year old girl). Now, don’t you think that there could be stories told about him that some family members would agree with and others would say were complete lies?

  466. One more FACT:

    In addition to the media articles, there are court filings on the HOPE org web site. If someone disputes something that is written in the court documents, they should take it up with the lawyer or judge who included the disputed item in their court filing.

  467. The books were stored in the schoolhouse for over a year. I doubt if there were any measles germs or communicable disease cooties living on them after a year sitting in a building (that is assuming that there ever were any germs on the books, which I highly doubt).

    Anonymous said this on April 20, 2011 at 8:46 AM

    Measles virus is only viable for 2 hrs on any surface outside the human body. See the CDC website. Why the concern regarding measles virus ? Aren’t they immunized ?

  468. a non, the “true stories” are people’s own story about their life in polygamy and how it has affected them. I have read all of the stories and find them to be credible.

    Take Jason Williams’ story. Everything he says is backed up by the documents filed in the custody case he was forced into by the leaders of the FLDS to stay a part of his children’s life. He won the case and got primary custody of his sons. The circumstances might have changed since his ex-wife is now also out of the cult. I do not know, but I know that everything he says is backed up by court documents.

  469. Anon @ 8:46. I too checked into Mudpuppy’s story and found the same as you, that there was never any donation and/or books from Florida or Mudpuppy in specific.

  470. In the video about about Mateo, it’s interesting to watch the man talking about how he would take another wife, and how he can’t fill the needs of one woman, etc….look at the women’s faces. The oldest wife looks like she could cut his heart out and eat it, the youngest wife is smiling sympathetically at him and the second wife is kind of looking off at nothing with a fake smile.

  471. S,

    Thanks for that last link on a study on abuse in fundie Mormons. That’s powerful stuff. Everyone interested in the topic should read it. Their lifestyle is a recipe for abuse of women and children and it’s hard for me to say that it’s not intentionally so. Jeffs and some of the other more severe sects certainly go a long way to increase those risk factors she listed.

  472. Medvecky is not only an apologist, he is a compulsive liar who is unable to tell the truth.

  473. “a non”‘s message is strikingly familiar. “I have special knowledge that proves you are wrong. I will not share that knowledge with you for your edification because you are unworthy. But you ought to acknowledge your unworthiness and believe me at my word none the less.” Not working for me. How’s it working for you “a non”?

  474. MadWhacker told Deb Lee he sent $1,500 worth of books for the library – well maybe he did, just sent it to the wrong address?

    And what would the FLDS do with all those books? Make a secret library?

    Yeah, learn in stealth, wouldnt want the world to know!

  475. Most Canadians support the ban on polygamy

  476. Thanks S, a good read!

  477. Please continue on General Discussion #53

    – Admin

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