General Discussion #51

Continued from General Discussion #50


~ by FLDS TEXAS on March 26, 2011.

520 Responses to “General Discussion #51”

  1. Lets start this one off with facts combined with speculation and conspiracy.

    In the spirit of continuing the saga, as it were.

    My question is, if Merril, Wendel and Willie start a new Culture Club, what are they gonna do while in prison, as their trials are coming up?

    At least they will have an unindicted, as yet, spokesman. We’ll see if Willie has the stomach for any more interviews.

  2. I think that Merril, at least, will make a deal to avoid prison. Maybe in the form of testifying against WSJ. As for Willie, I think he’ll go wherever someone will pay his way.

  3. I’ve never seen the list, but perhaps someone could post it with the names blacked out.
    Anonamous said this on March 26, 2011 at 7:00 PM

    What are you talking about?


    Fifth picture Janet Jeffs arriving at Fort Concho.

  5. UEP news.

    “The Utah Attorney General’s Office on Friday argued in favor of a move by the Supreme Court that could sideline a federal judge’s ruling that the state acted illegally when it took over a polygamous sect’s land trust.”

  6. PT, list of signatures.

  7. PT, the list of signatures

  8. I hope someome, with a clear mind and a set of the real facts [and no agenda!] looks again at the ruling. That federal judges ruling is smelling like really old fish.

  9. I think the Utah Supreme Court will mc1199, I don’t think they would have asked for briefs on the subject if they didn’t intend to give it a good looking in to.

    Anonamous, what good would the list be with the names blacked out? Besides, it’s 400+ pages that would have to be blacked out. I don’t see that happening. You could get it yourself with a Freedom of Information request to your US Congressman or US Senator or perhaps to the President.

  10. The pics of Janet J. Nielsen that I saw I believe were originally posted on the FLDS website that no longer exists. However I did some googling and found this picture of Janet coming down the steps at the time of the raid: This is the same picture that I have seen elsewhere. Also, here is one of two that I have seen of her on the bus: It is the third picture down. She has her back to the camera talking with Merrilyn, with Sally peering over her shoulder. There is a better one with Janet facing the camera, but I cannot find it tonight.

    I heard her do an interview with NPR while the children were still being held and it does seem like she said she was traveling when she first heard that the girls were being questioned and that she rushed back. Evidently she got back pretty quickly because she is in the raid pictures. Plus, I relistened to her interview with Lisa Ling and she describes the raid and mentions the SWAT teams and said, “I have never seen anything like it.”

    My impression regarding the “arrival” was that she was staying in the area with the older boys and could only wave across the way at the girls. At some point she went over to see the girls and was ordered by LE to go back. I could be wrong about her being with the boys, but I got that idea from one of her interviews.

    By the way, this is Carol from Carolina. Not sure why I am showing up as “Anonymous”.

  11. You’re right Carol. Maybe what I remember is that she wasn’t there when it began but came back quickly. I just remember that there were 4 who weren’t there. Grace Ellen Young wasn’t ever at the YFZ, she was in Las Vegas while her daughters and young sons were on the ranch. Annette was in Arizona visiting Warren and Maggie was in exile somewhere, repenting. Janet was the other one, but she must have hightailed it back.

    Thanks for digging out the pictures.

  12. Okay… did I miss something? I’m not getting it; what is the point of this interest in Janet?

  13. It started back on the other thread when Info Gal commented that Janet Jeffs Nielsen might not have been aware of the underage marriages because she wasn’t at the ranch at the time of the raid. I think that comment came about because we were all commenting on how the FLDS women had no problem telling bold face lies to the media.

  14. And I remembered that I had seen pics that did show her at the ranch at the time of the raid. That’s all I was answering. I don’t know Janet, of course, but I always tried to listen to any interview she did as I thought she was very articulate.

    Carol from Carolina

  15. I wonder what Janet thinks of her brother exing her husband.

  16. In this recent episode of Polygamy : What Love is This ? Pastor Jim Catlin discusses the origins and the impact of Doctrines and Covenants Section 132.

  17. Well, I cannot imagine anyone believing Janet Jeffs Nielsen was not aware there were underage marriages going on.

  18. And Janet is only one of several Jeffs sisters married to ‘her husband.’ I wonder what all of them are thinking now.

  19. You’re right, East. Janet herself gave it away during the interview with Lisa Ling when she said that the younger wives were especially well cared for.

  20. Who is Wendell’s “legal” wife?

  21. ET, did you see underage marriages in the FLDS ?

  22. I want to see Willie stand up and be the spokesman against TYRANNY..

    THAT is what I want. It may happen, but perhaps he feels he already has enough egg on his face.

  23. Carol, Wendell’s legal wife seems to be Linda Black. He’s also married to 7 of Rulon’s daughters, 3 of Rulon’s granddaughters and 1 daughter-in-law. There’s at least 1 mother/daughter combo, Sally and Merilyn (Unibrow).

  24. Anon @ 5:57 PM on #50.

    Have you ever read the 19th wife? A first person description of the life of a wife of Brigham Young? There were a lot of sex slaves and concubines in that book. And many historians believe that the “freedoms” of the polygamist women of the early church were propoganda and shams.

    We’ve got lots of links to studies, there are former FLDS (and other polygamist group) members who have given their perosnal stories; polygyny is not an egalitarian practice and it does not elevate or empower women. I read the commentary of the woman who photographed the FLDS for the national geographic. She said that the women ran everything and did all the work and claimed it was very empowering. I thought that was hilarious; she included photographs of the upper level men in a meeting with various Utah state lawyers and AG’s and the women were serving them lunch wearing matching prairie outfits and aprons while the men sat there in modern garb hardly noticing their servers. That’s an obvious statement of who has the power and I have to tell you that the ones pouring coffee don’t have it! Empowerment to me does not mean that I can be assigned to run a diary so that someone else reaps the profit! Empowerment means that I have choice and control over my own life; that I can decide what line of work I want, including mother hood as an option or not.

    You seem to have a vested interest in the statement that polygamy is good for women. I wonder why you are so involved in that point of view, Anon, or Sciotangy, or whatever.

  25. Hasn’t Willie been the instrument of tyranny? Why should the leopard change his spots? The only way I can see him standing up to tyranny is so that he can change teams and be dishing it out again.

  26. Carol From Carolina

    I stand corrected.

    That is what I get for assuming.:)

  27. FLDS musical chairs – its an odd game, with the lizard wizard pulling the strings from afar.

    Wonder if he has pondered repenting?

  28. ET, did you see underage marriages in the FLDS ?

    S. said this on March 27, 2011 at 5:53 AM

    I never “saw” an underage marriage; I heard (reliable source) of only one, a 12-year-old; unconsummated; he died. I was just a kid at the time but remember thinking of it as a compassionate gesture to adopt a young orphan into a large family of loving women (sister-wives) who would help her finish growing up before taking on the duties of marriage, so to speak.

    Why marry her as opposed to just taking her in???? In hindsight, beats me.

    On the other hand, and only during my own teen years, I heard gossip of 16-17 year-olds getting married (legal with written parental consent) but never personal knowledge of such or what the details were. What I DID know: it was not condoned by the priesthood council except under rare or extreme circumstances. Young girls were always told to wait until they finished high school.

    As a teen, all I knew was that the usual reason for girls getting married before 18 was that they were acting out (being rebellious with parental family) or “getting into trouble” with boys – you know… raging hormones syndrome. Marriage saves them from eternal destruction. 😉

    To me – and I think to other girls in my age-group – getting married before 18 was a nasty stigma which I knew I didn’t want; it meant you had been a bad girl… had done something terribly wrong. I was definitely a goody-two-shoes.

    All of the above is my knowledge (so to speak) before the one-man-rule went into effect. I disappeared after that. Anything I heard about much more common underage marriages was well after my departure and after Warren was routinely speaking for his father.

  29. ET then there are these more recent revelations about WSJ privately marrying underage girls at the YFZ Raunch and warning priesthood men to observe a ‘Heavenly Hush’ and hold to a ‘Sacred Secret’ by not informing even their own wives and children. It reminds me of the early 20 years of polygamy practices by Joseph Smith, Jr. and Brigham Young that were intenial acts to mask, hide and cover-up their celestial practices. Same behaviors still preserved and practiced by ‘Warrant’ Jeffs, it is a distinctive trait to have this need to maintain some silent secrecy to only ‘The Chosen’. Emma Smith was never fully aware of the Prophets Temple celestial marriages and never accepted plural marriage as a new covenant, even though she was unable to dissuade her husband from justifying his adultery.

    It is still interesting to me how ‘Warrant’ Jeffs total plural wives and number of offspring is a well maintained secret. Obviously, the hostile public reaction from the ‘Gentiles’ must be avoided to stem the loss of any credibility about being a persecuted prophet and people.
    I suppose shuttling and hiding all of ‘Warrants’ wives must be another ‘Heavenly Hush’.

  30. No, it’s not just WSJ who demands privacy/secrecy. Nothing really new about it at all. In my day, ALL plural marriages were kept secret, mine included, even from close family members – though not quite as strictly in Short Creek as in SLC. Lots of fear over raids by LE.

    Girls were known as ‘poofers’ – a disappearing act – Poof! you’re gone. I remember lots of distress when a sister or daughter was in the household one day and gone forever the next. Suppress the distress!!! Get the Spirit of God and keep it… the “keep sweet” mantra of my day. Just part of the territory/religion. WSJ simply carries everything to extremes.

    Actually, I think he is much more open/flagrant about it if you consider he dictates for posterity (and now us) everything he thinks and does. I know of no records kept for all the activities that went on in my younger years (though I don’t know how they kept track of all the unions). Keeping personal records or diaries was verboten because of the fear of raids where those records could be confiscated and therefore used as evidence. Big contrast.

  31. Don’t you figure out what happened to people when you meet them at the grocery store or at church and they are dragging babies along or accompanied by a sister wife or husband? Seems like in such a close community the poofers can’t stay invisible for long. I do see how it would be very upsetting to have your daughter disappear even if you ran into her 6 months or 2 years later. What an odd way to live.

  32. CAJim, I didn’t know it was some big secret. Warren has 79 wives and 52 children. 20 of which are from his first 2 marriages. Annette had 12 and Barbara had 8. The number of wives with no child far outnumbers those with children. Remember, he hasn’t had the ability to get anyone pregnant since August 2007, so Merrianne’s child would be the last one born.

  33. ET, I think Warren kept a diary for the express purpose of getting it confiscated by law enforcement. He thought he was above them, so it was his way of thumbing his nose at them.

  34. No Joy Book?

  35. @Granny… no such thing as a ‘Joy Book’ in my past experience. A girl just ‘turned herself in’ usually to her father who then informed the prophet she was ready to be placed in marriage… meaning she was ‘doing what’s right.’ In those days ‘placement marriage’ was becoming the norm although there was still some pairing off activity going on which I was taught ‘is not right.’ And for a while there it was okay for a girl to request to go to a certain man.

    @Betty & PT… secrecy was a much bigger deal in SLC. It was much harder to keep plural wives secret in Short Creek. ‘Poofers’ hardly existed there if they married someone locally. On the other hand they did become ‘poofers’ if they were married to a SLC guy who requested the secrecy.

    In SLC if you spotted a secretly-married woman in a store, it was a bit comical; she would hurry around another isle or quickly get the hell out of there rather than suffer an encounter. Out of respect for each others’ privacy and the trained response to such a situation, neither woman would try to approach the other. You just didn’t acknowledge the other in any way.

    Of course we weren’t fooling the public about who we were as far as being identified as ‘polygs.’ However, dress codes were considerably less extreme in those days; dresses were NEVER longer than mid-calf and we could sew a huge variety of dress patterns – style, print and color (except red) – as long as we were covered to the wrist and no more than a slight ‘V’ at the neck if even that. We could even purchase something off the rack if it met the guidelines.

    I remember trying to push that ‘V’ as low as I could get away with until my husband would walk up to me and try to pin it higher. Remember the Korean couple, Jin and Sun, on “Lost”?… how in the beginning he was always buttoning up any little gap below her collar-bone? Yeah, it was like that.

    But hair was more of a dead-giveaway. Those huge up-dos you see on that mormonhair site were unheard of back then… just modest waves in front, french twists and various bun styles in back. Little girls typically had plain braids.

    (Ummm…If I’m not mistaken, I think the fancy-hairstyles were started by the Newell Steed daughters and their daughters in Merril’s family. I need to see if I have that impression from Carolyn’s first book, “Escape.”)

  36. Your description of meeting each other in the grocery store reminds me of the joke about Baptists meeting each other in the liquour store.

  37. It sure does.

  38. Any of you recall a young woman who married a USAF jet pilot, last name Jeter?

  39. Unveiling Grace

  40. PT folks here are more informed on WSJ’s wives and children but the sustained effort to sequester his wives and the ‘Gentile’ presses general knowledge of ‘Warrants’ lifestyle is more commonly unknown. ‘Warrants’ families whereabouts would be more unkown. Most reporters allude to dozens of wives or more than 50 brides but no listings or names and his children are even more sequestered.

  41. Mrs Jeter married about 30 years ago.

  42. CAJim, that would probably be because most of his wives and children are at the YFZ, so they are never seen.

  43. Thanks “A friend”. It’s along the same lines as “Lifting the Veil on Polygamy”


    Great article about the Canadian side of polygamy.

  45. This is a bit of topic, but found online a video the LDS church put out of a young women/teen conference:

    It’s interesting to look at what the LDS girls/young women are taught as compared to the lives of the FLDS girls & young women, it’s like they are from two different planets, the dress, the mannerisms, everything.

    I wonder what the FLDS and ex FLDS would think after seeing this video?

  46. That link to the article was me, I don’t know why my name didn’t show up.


    Great article about the Canadian side of polygamy.

    Anonymous said this on March 27, 2011 at 9:19 PM

    Good post anon, just more bad acts for the jury in Texas to see. Ole Warren just might find himself wearing those all white prison clothes of the Texas inmate, lordy, lordy it looks like Warren Jeffs will spend his last days in Texas prison, he will die an old man, forgotten by all and end up in the prison cemetery in Huntsville, Texas.

  48. I wonder if they will extradite him to Canada to serve time after Texas is finished with him… presuming Texas ever lets him out….

  49. I hope they concentrate on those up there who did the smuggling. While Warren told them to do it, they were the ones who actually did it.

    Make all those Blackmore men serve time for smuggling children across the border and selling them for a place in Warren’s criminal empire.

  50. There sure are a lot of things about the travelers that aren’t much different from FLDS.

  51. FU, stamp
    Me Again said this on March 15, 2011 at 5:56 PM

    Me Again, I don’t think that you are aware that only certain posters on this blog have passed the “FU to posters” credentials.

    Therefore, such FU comments are highly discouraged unless you pass the FU Bar.

    I am not an ADMIN of this blog, but I have had my FU certificate and FU credentials for some time now since I passed the FU Bar a couple of years ago.

    The theory of FU ability has to be proven and earned here.

    So, unless you have your FU certificate, please refrain from using that phrase until you have earned the priviledge to do so.

    FU, Love Fred.

  52. Uh yeah. Some can, some can’t. Heh!

  53. Whoa – excellent article – after reading it, it sure appears that judge Dee Benson is keen on keeping sweet…


    “But Jeffs’s cold-blooded manipulation of people like chess pawns apparently doesn’t stop at girls and young women.

    His diary alleges that on Christmas Day 2003, he ordered a follower to steal a baby boy from his mother and take him to Jeffs “out of reach of the government and of his mother until his mother can prove that she can maintain the sweet spirit.”

    Jeffs ends the diary entry: “If she turns traitor and goes and tells anyone … the Lord will handle her.”

    Read more:

  54. He betrays her and then says that if she tells anyone that’s she’s the traitor. All over whether or not she is obedient enough. Typical “logic” of a control oriented abuser.

  55. Very sad indeed–using a baby like a po ker chip. Gosh..I can’t wait for the weenies trial to start!! If it ever does???

  56. I have been debating the issue of constitutional freedom (Judge Dee’s ruling). I wonder what the criteria are for deciding when something is religious and when it is not. I know that there was a guy in a wealthy suburb near me who got an on-line minister degree and declared his house a temple as a tax shelter. It worked for a couple of years and then he got whacked by the government.

    so what is the criteria for deciding on a sham?

  57. wrt to warren’s trial,

    shame it can’t be any sooner so his phone privileges would be cut…. or maybe better to let him stir up discontent and strife?

  58. It won’t be any sooner than July, so he can stir up whatever until then.

    Hopefully Merril, Wendell and Leroy Steed will be set for trial between now and July.

  59. Merrill–Wendell and Leroy better wake up and testify against that creep….

  60. I wouldn’t hold your breath, jobo.

  61. True anon4now….ok…then they can just get prepared to spend some time in the Texas prisons….hope they enjoy their visit!!!

  62. OK, that’s really weird. I posted the “hold your breath” post. How did I end up being “Anon4 now”??? I swear I did not type that in.


  63. That is strange????

  64. D. Bramham’s Vancouver Sun article on the ‘Child Bride’ combine only mentions the now suspected 31 Canadian celestial girls? Given the exchange mentality of the FLDS Priesthood men there should be an equal amount of American celestial brides that were sex trafficked into Bountiful, BC. That would suggest over 60 underaged girls were exchanged over this international border.

    Seems like FLDS Church polygyny knows no bounds about international prohibitions when it comes to ‘Keep Sweet’ and obeying their ‘Profit’.

  65. Seems like the US could have a very similar case to prosecute.

  66. It’s bad enough that flds girls are married off at such a young age, but then, to get them pregnant and use their babies as a threat is just totally barbaric!!!

  67. But, hey, it’s all about consenting adults, right? No coercion. Riiigghht.

  68. Betty, I think that list is both American and Canadian. The Canadian men came to the US to marry American girls and then take them back across the border. The last 2 12 year olds Warren married aren’t even adults yet. I’m sure they are still in this country illegally, without any parents around.

  69. They’ll never even legally vote in the USA.

  70. I wonder if this human trafficking has anything to do with Utah’s phoney “policy” toward illegals. Illegal IS illegal.

  71. Is Arizona Governor Jan Brewer going to enacted a Northern border policy to keep illegal Canadian ‘Child Brides’ out of Colorado City? Seems like the lively sex trafficking trade with Bountiful, BC puts Arizona’s northern border at risk of another unwelcomed alien incursion. They should be on the alert for any teenaged girls, in prairie dresses, headed South from Hildale and pushing baby strollers.

  72. To watch the proceedings of the polygamy reference case via streaming video, go to

    There is a ten minute delay

  73. Arizona lost AG Goddard in his attempt to run for Gov, I reckon AZ will fall back to its Immigration Impotus stance, at least with illegals from the north.

    You have to admit they are being over run by those from the south.

    They need to get serious – and the Feds arent helping.

  74. Betty: “Have you ever read the 19th wife? A first person description of the life of a wife of Brigham Young? There were a lot of sex slaves and concubines in that book. And many historians believe that the “freedoms” of the polygamist women of the early church were propoganda and shams.”

    No I have not read it. I don’t dispute that Brigham Young’s 19th wife, or anybody’s 19th wife for that matter probably had a pretty tough go at it. That is very excessive.

    I have read the accounts of my own female polygamous LDS ancestors which are voluminous; 1000’s of pages written by the women themselves, as well as their daughters and granddaughters. They were all intelligent, articulate, well educated women especially for the time period. I won’t share their writings here, but they are remarkable, and it is clear that they were happy and that the wives were treated fairly and not pitted against one another like is done in the FLDS. The accounts written by the granddaughters were written years after polygamy was taboo in the LDS, so they would have been under no pressure from the church to promote the principle if they felt that their grandmother had gotten a raw deal.

    I am sure that there were numerous bad experiences, but neither you, nor any other poster on FLDS TEXAS is going to convince me that these wonderful women were sex slaves and concubines.


    “You seem to have a vested interest in the statement that polygamy is good for women. I wonder why you are so involved in that point of view, Anon, or Sciotangy, or whatever.”

    Another violation of the FLDS TEXAS message board rule about guessing at the identity of an anonomous poster. You sure like to do that.

    Why am I so involved in that point of view? For no other reason than to annoy you specifically, of coarse. It couldn’t be because the other point of view unfairly portrays my ancestors as pitiful, helpless sex slaves.

    FLDS TEXAS ADMIN, Thank you for putting together this wonderful website. Personally, I do not see the difference between posting anonymously or using sock puppets, but if it bothers you I apologize, and I will post anonymously from this point forward, if at all. I try to only post cool FLDS related videos, like the extended Bill Shapely interview, the Hainline harassment, crazy Kathleen, ect. because I am good at finding them, but sometimes I feel compelled to chime in. I usually am made to regret it.

    Now, once again, I get to be the long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. Rock away, ladies.


    William E. Jessop filed papers to take over the Presidency of the FLDS.

  76. Abib @ 5:56, I have no clue what you’re talking about. I think the reason they want you to just use one name is so that you won’t be patting yourself on the back 14 times with different monikers. Sometimes I post anonymously, but it’s usually because I’ve cleared my cookies and forgotten to put my name back in.

    Please continue to post. I have no idea who you are, but relish various viewpoints.

    As for polygamous women being wonderful and intelligent, that may be so, but it doesn’t appear to be the case within the FLDS (for the most part). Sally, Krazy Kathleen, Weeping Marie and the others who got on camera and lied their asses off, refused to answer questions regarding the underage marriages that were going on gave all of the FLDS a bad name. Now maybe they only put forth the best liars or the ones who volunteered to lie, I’m not sure, but for the most part it was a pathetic attempt to garner sympathy for a lie.

  77. Anonymous Who Cannot Even Spell Anonymous Correctly @ 5:56 pm – I lack even the smallest amount of respect for you because you simply lack the courage to use a consistent identity for log in. You might also want to take a basic course in spelling or diction while you work on your integrity. Your ancestors were duped, what a pity you feel the need to defend their folly.

  78. More about William E. Jessop’s move to take over the FLDS Presidency.

  79. That’s a much more detailed article than the original HuffPost article. Looks like William Timpson Jessop has risen from the ashes of exing, although if he’s been in Pringle, it might have just been a “repent from afar” kind of thing. Wonder if he has Becky Wall’s mother and 2 sisters with him.

  80. If I were staff at the Reagan County Jail, I’d be keeping a close watch on one particular jail cell.

  81. This isn’t “our” Willie the spokesman is it?

  82. No… not wee willie.

    William Edson Timpson changed his last name to Jessop some time ago. Biologically he’s a Timpson. Wee Willie really is a biological Jessop.

  83. Just drove by the Dairy in Short Creek – the “Closed” is crossed out and underneath it says “Now Open.” Anybody know what’s up?

  84. How do you define “concubine”, “Anonamous”? Polygamist wives other than the legal ones are, by definition, concubines. Look it up.

    It is against the rules to speculate on the REAL identity of the poster. I do not think it’s against the rules to note that the same voice tends to use a million or so sock puppets.

    I am sure that your ancestors were amazing, I believe and respect that. Joseph in the Bible was the second most powerful man in Egypt, but he was still a slave of the Pharaoh.

  85. Woo Hoo, squeaky cheese lives again. Thinks for the tip cuz.

  86. OK, that anon post about the squeaky cheese was mine. I’m not sure why it took me to anon state.

    I think we should refer to William E. Jessop and Timpson-Jessop to clarify if we are talking about Thugly or the new Bishop.

  87. Anonymous @5:56 I think we’re all interested in your viewpoint. And we’re all pretty much anonymous. But it really is helpful to have a signature so we can (anonymously) relate to each other. By the way, the ‘poor-me pathos’ with which you ended your post was unbecoming.

    But I wonder why you feel the need to defend your ancestors? They are long-gone since writing about their happy experiences in their then polygamous lifestyle. I too have had joyous experiences while in the practice. It certainly wasn’t all horrible all the time.

    I think it’s cool that you hold your ancestors in high regard. It’s a very personal thing. However, I think I can assume they CHOSE their positions in the faith, and that brings me to the core of truth.

    You said, “They were all intelligent, articulate, well educated women especially for the time period… they are remarkable, and it is clear that they were happy and that the wives were treated fairly and not pitted against one another like is done in the FLDS.”

    That was then and this forum is primarily about the FLDS now. I guess I don’t understand; are you trying to compare then with now? (Heck, I can’t remember which fallacy that is.)

    Your ancestors were not all born in it; they were educated; they had the ability to leave if they wished to without being shunned and made pariahs; they maintained their individuality in thought, dress, etc.; and I’m pretty sure they could question their leaders.

    None of that – as well as much more – is true of the FLDS lifestyle today. And today, we’re talking about extreme coercion (mind control), trafficking, and under-aged girls being forced (not given a choice) to marry. Men, women and children cannot make educated choices. Period. They will tell you all day long it’s their choice to be where they are. But you simply cannot call it a choice if you’re generationally conditioned to believe damnation awaits you if you don’t obey.

    I’ll not belabor this further… surely you get my point?

  88. Interesting that ole Warren’s has been removed from leadership of his church, it’s seems the rank & file of the FLDS may have woke up and smelled the coffee. Perhaps those insane letters ole Jeffs sent out were the straw that broke the camels back or perhaps the outings of the top leadership. Perhaps enough was enough, and the rumors of a new break away group was false, it was a coup.

    Here’s a really long article on Jeffs removal as leader, with a photo of the “profit” William Jessop. Jessop apparently spoke with reporters for this interview, stating “Asked if he is now considered the church’s prophet and spiritual leader, Jessop said that will be up to individual church members.”

  89. Here’s another article:

    Title of article Moves to oust Jeffs.

  90. This just in via Daphne Bramham in Canada –

  91. “..and it is clear that they were happy and that the wives were treated fairly and not pitted against one another like is done in the FLDS.”

    How does anyone know what the true feelings of their long gone ancestors were ???

  92. Well educated early polygamist women has me puzzled. I know that OH had a college/uni when it was ‘the west’, and it was the furthest west college, Western Reserve, now a part of Case Institute. My grandpa attended the Reserve. But Utah? I don’t think so. 😉 I will admit that my VT and NY pioneer mormon ancestors were probably better educated than some. Some who weren’t mormons were the educators of their times and places.

  93. S, some of them wrote, journaling was more than common, and I know of letters written to those back home in the 19th century.

  94. Would love to be a fly on the wall, when Warren hears he’s been given the boot. No one to take his collect calls, no one to talk to except the jailer. Wonder if the hardcore Warrenites at YFZ will recognize the new “profit”, will there be a split, with the majority of the FLDS following the new profit in Short Creek, and the ousted Warranites hard core fleeing to YFZ, more headaches for Sheriff Doran.

    If anyone is out around Eldorado, Texas, perhaps you can let use know if anything is going on at YFZ.

  95. Keep in mind, being President of the FLDS as a Corporation and being The Prophet are two different things.

    Also, William E. Timpson-Jessop may be doing exactly what The Prophet is telling him to do.

  96. I have no idea what the statement means “my ancestors were all happy polygamous women” in light of the requirement to “keep sweet”

  97. S., The “Keep Sweet” mantra wasn’t ever voiced while I was still in, at least not that *I* ever heard in my semi-isolated state… So not until around the early ’80s by my reckoning. None of those ancestors would have heard that.

    I personally know in my own time, “happy polygamous women” – but I often question the happiness when there is little to compare their happiness to.

  98. In every study done to date in peer reviewed journals using standardized indices of marital satisfaction indicate that polygamous women report lower levels of marital satisfaction than monogamous women do. Anecdotal reports handed down regarding the marital satisfaction of people long gone are highly questionable.

  99. I think that we confuse the issues. If someone has limited choice or control over the path of their lives, it does not mean that their experiences, lessons and loves did not happen or were trivial or unimportant. They still loved, lived, had children, longed to know God and they had some work or contribution. But there is no telling what different life they would have chosen if they had had real options.

  100. Timpson-Jessop looks a lot like Thugly in that photo in the Deseret News.

  101. Todd Compton’s book “In Sacred Loneliness” gives an interesting view of the diaries and journals of Mormon women of the 19th century, although it is not an objective research study.

    Is William E. Jessop expected to be an improvement ?

  102. I suppose I could check at our library for that, or order it.

  103. A Review of Todd Compton’s “In Sacred Loneliness,” regarding the earliest Mormon polygamous wives, available on –

    Formerly at UCLA and now the editor of Mormonism and Early Christianity, Compton has compiled a meticulously researched and masterly study of Mormon Joseph Smith’s 33 wives. The women are presented individually, with many of their own documents cited. Compton contends that “Mormon polygamy was characterized by a tragic ambiguity”: infinite dominion in the next life vs. a social system that did not work, thus resulting in acute neglect of the wives. These “key women have been comparatively forgotten,” surprisingly so considering the reverence Mormons hold for their founding prophet and how important polygamy was to Smith. The “sacred loneliness” refers to Smith’s promise of salvation combined with the solitude of the forsaken multiple wives. A plenary reference and bibliography and a collection of the wives’ photographs fill out this tome, making it a fascinating work. Valuable for both lay readers and scholars, this is recommended for public and academic libraries with good collections in history and women’s studies.

  104. At least he isn’t behind bars, so the faithful will get out from under their profit’s $2,000 per day phone habit.

  105. Any estimates regarding the legal bills incurred thus far ?

  106. A lot, I’d guestimate around $5,000 a day given how many they are paying.

  107. Proud Texan, maybe to keep it simple we should just address them as “Thugly” (William ‘R’) and “Fugly” (William ‘E’)

  108. My comments this week must be judged against the backdrop of the fact that I am in the Short Creek area and it is not easy. We are traveling from Idaho for some family history for Spring Break. Judge gently but honestly. I can certainly take it.

    I have come to respect deeply all the players here on this website but am occasionally disturbed by comments, as some of you will be by mine.

    The comment “your ancestors were duped” and that defending them is wrong was accurate but awfully harsh. My ancestors were duped as well but they were mostly consenting adults and all raised their hands to sustain the revelation of polygamy to the prophet once they got to Utah (granted, what choice did they have once they came all that way and might be shunned if they did not?). Those of us who daily grapple with that history deserve compassion. Polygamy is awful, inherently so, and I would never think otherwise, but these are our people who did what they believed was right. It was wrong then as well as it is wrong now, but it did evolve from mildly awful to extremely horrid, partly due to the secrecy and cloistering.

    RE: Anonamous, (and he/she may have chosen that spelling for a reason, perhaps to delineate him/her self from others) I did not read her/him to defend modern polygamy but offered that the writings of his/her ancestors depicted satisfaction with their lives and comfort in their choices. As others have pointed out, there was no “keep sweet” back then, except for the idea that you maintain civility no matter how you are treated by others. I too have women ancestors who wrote glowingly of their lives and their relationships with their husband and sister wives. Maybe it is contrived or borne of wishful thinking but none of us know that. And I do believe that to dismiss their presumably sincere writings and assume that they did not freely choose their lives infantilizes these women.

    Being here is exhausting but good. The kids are doing very well so far. The husband is still kind of stunned (one of your normal, mainstream, Norweigian Lutherans). They met some cousins at the Merry Wives during lunch, good people, saw pictures of family members on the walls.

    Tomorrow off to the cemetery, and then to Lee’s Ferry, where our Johnson and Spencer families operated the ferry after John D. Lee.

  109. Let’s not jump the gun on the Warrant / Jessop-Timpson thing. How can we be sure it’s actual mutiny?

    BTW The name changing thing offends me on a much deeper level than is warranted. It really makes me see red. But, since God changes their DNA, I guess it’s okay.

  110. A thumbs-up to 3rd Cousin.

  111. Thanks for the support, Granny, I’m in a weird place. In many ways at once. Ha ha.

  112. I can kinda a littlebit maybe somewhat understand. Maybe it’s an adventure, or may be when you can look backward?

  113. This is getting so muttled up it is hard to distinguish the facts/fictions? Why mail out the 600 mailer on “Warning to the Nation” and the reported second wave of mailers went out last Friday? ‘Handling’ dozens of followers and then abdicating your bishopric is equally as puzzling. Has anyone found out what the second mass mailer packets have to say?

  114. I haven’t heard anything, Jim. I’m certain it’ll be more childish entertainment.

  115. anon @12:13, I like those names. 🙂

  116. Unrest in Tunisia, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Lebanon, Iran, Libya, and now Shortcreek – amazing co-incidence.

  117. The last mailing kinda makes me go hmmmmmmmm. No word from anyone on what it contained. Guess it must be a big secret. Maybe a call to Washington is in order to see if the Congressmen there got a new revelation.

  118. Isn’t it though Stamp. And each one is a “family” squabble.

  119. Here’s an interesting video from SLC TV station which paints this as a coup, an uprising against Jeffs.

    Video Courtesy of

  120. Third Cousin your comments are always appreciated and respected – but at the same time posters like Dennis/Denise/Anonamous/Sciotangy who use multiple log ins to agree with themselves and who send deceptive emails to advocacy organizations are not worthy of our respect or attention – nor should we take seriously anything they have to say.

  121. @ Third Cousin… Thanks for your honest and interesting input.

    I’m really looking forward to a bit of travelogue from you. That would be cool!

  122. B.C.’s Bountiful polygamy case: There are no sides, only layers

    “…there simply are no sides to this issue… there are only layers. If one really needs to have sides, than [sic] it is an octagon at minimum.”

  123. here is an article on william timpson jessop’s pringle tax problems

  124. The tax man cometh, the FLDS hasn’t paid their property taxes on the South Dakota compound.

    From newspaper article: “Whether or not Jeffs’ legal problems are contributing to financial problems for the Pringle compound isn’t clear. On Monday, FLDS elder William E. Jessop filed papers in Utah to replace Jeffs as FLDS president.”

    Read the rest:

    Could the unpaid property taxes along with Jeffs removal of top FLDS leader be the reason for the take over?

  125. sorry I have a new computer anonyous 9:02 with the link was me HHG

  126. sorry the anonymous at 9:02 with the link to pringle was me hhg

  127. the property taxes in cc city haven’t been paid either have they?

  128. I’m sure that the financial squeeze would be a factor in any rebellion against Jeffs. And no matter that he forbids internet access, I’m sure folks there are doing their own research. Anyone with the curiosity and access to a computer should be able to figure out that there really is some truth to the accusations of many 12-14 year olds. It’s easy to see that he has subjected all of them to financial problems and extra legal scrutiny because of his megalomania and his fascination with very young brides. They would be insane NOT to rebel.

  129. Due to my own trust and fear issues, I have kept many of you at a distance. Until yesterday, I didn’t know for sure if some of you guys were really real. But I know now.

    To those of you that know me and understand what it is I am trying to say, I want to say thank-you.

  130. You know, HOOSD just doesn’t have the same ring as HOOT.

  131. I maybe even ‘got it’, Walton.

  132. Walton,
    it is true that there are a lot of weird people on the internet. Some from the FLDS, some who think that the FLDS have been wronged, some who have been wronged by the FLDS, some observers, some LE, and among all of those there are individuals who like to play mind games. Your distrust is fully understandable. I hope that you and your family are well and surviving …

  133. Walton – nice to see that you are back.

  134. Unpaid taxes can be easily addressed by seizing construction vehicles on the closest FLDS contractors jobsite. The Sheriff just needs to show them the bright path to their worksite is through the assessors office. I am sure,”…..they will see the light” once they are read the ‘Gentile’ gospel. Letting them flaunt the local laws and enforcement will only result in more bad acts.

  135. One question that I have always had and wondered if someone could answer for me…
    I am considered by LDS to be a “gentile.” Not sure what FLDS would call me. I thought (may be wrong) LDS had the belief that there were different levels of heaven and we “gentiles” would be in a lower tier of heaven where they could proselytize to us. But, yet referenced here and elsewhere is the concept that FLDS people only have two choices – top rung and become a god (if you are a man), or go straight to hell.

    So do FLDS and LDS have different beliefs in this or are they the same and I misunderstood?

  136. I’m a “gentile” too, but believe that the LDS also believe in the tri-level heaven.

  137. Gotta say I’m sorta tickled at Jim’s el sendero luminoso

  138. I’m a “gentile” too, but believe that the LDS also believe in the tri-level heaven.

    Proud Texan said this on March 29, 2011 at 1:12 PM

    Checked the LDS church website and found two articles on heaven:

    From above articles: “1.

    After we have been resurrected and judged, each of us will dwell in one of three kingdoms of glory.

    True. Just as there are different degrees of righteousness on the earth, there are kingdoms of differing glory in the next life: the celestial kingdom is the highest, followed by the terrestrial and the telestial. To reward many different levels of faithfulness, there will be “many mansions” (see John 14:2).”

    So yes heaven in the LDS viewpoint is made of three levels.

  139. Seached the LDS website and found an online copy of a Sunday School book for new members called “Gospel Principals”

    It has 47 chapters, fascinating reading, lots of material.

  140. From the Canadian newspapers today –

  141. Whoa, good site on the UEP presidency arm wrestle.

    Looks like Jessop will get it unless Warren contests, and he may have bubba backing!


    Senior church elder William E. Jessop became president of the corporation that is the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints after filing papers with the Utah Department of Commerce on Monday.

    Warren Jeffs didn’t formally resign the presidency, and it’s unclear whether he approved or even had prior knowledge of Jessop’s plan.

    “It’s really going to be interesting now to see No. 1, Warren Jeffs’ reaction, and No. 2, what the people’s reaction will be,” said Anne Wilde, co-founder of the polygamy advocacy group Principle Voices. “Whether this will cause a division in the group isn’t clear.”

    Utah Department of Commerce rules don’t require a resignation to install a new president for any corporation.


  142. Here’s more, Warren Jeffs has a pr- trial hearing at 10AM Wed in San Angelo,TX. Here’s an interesting article that will appear in tomorrows paper, from newspapers website:

  143. Here’s another article appearing in the San Angelo paper:

    This one is about how that felonious profit Warren Jeffs acts in court.

  144. Here’s a SLC TV stations article on Jeffs, it appears to be similar to the report that Stamp posted from the Washington newspaper.

  145. Another SLC TV station reports that possible court battle over who’s the “profit” could be brewing between followers of Wille E. Jessop and hard core Warrenites, could be some fire works as mentioned over on the who’s first thread.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see the majority of FLDS going over to Willie E in Short Creek with the hardcore Warrenites fleeing to YFZ.

  146. From S link above – WOW


    “”We felt a powerful spirit of peace and more especially the second one, the younger one, received the burning witness of burning peace. All present received that peace.”
    In an unrelated diary entry, Jeffs explained his reasons for marrying children.

    “These young girls have been given to me to be taught and trained how to come into the presence of God and help redeem Zion from their youngest years before they go through teenage doubting and fears and boy troubles,” wrote Jeffs.

    “I will just be their boy troubles and guide them right.”

  147. Whether you want to parse it as a “Child Brides”, hebophelia, or pedophelia, I think most lay people in society would view this behavior as serial pedophelia.

  148. Yes, a “quorum” of 7 child brides being delivered around the country for him at all times…just totally disgusting.

  149. “Creepy” and “pathetic” are words some Arizona observers used to describe the man who faces trial in San Angelo this summer on charges of sexual assault of a child and bigamy.

  150. There might be some more FLDS property going to tax sale.

    Guess they can thank Warren for that!


    “A polygamist Mormon sect that owns a 140-acre compound in the southern Black Hills is $178,594 past due in its Custer County property taxes for 2008 and 2009.

    The United Order of South Dakota, which is the legal name of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints community 15 miles southwest of Pringle, has paid none of its 2009 property taxes, which were due last year. The United Order of South Dakota is more than two years past due for part of its 2008 taxes that were due in 2009.

    It paid the 2008 property taxes due on four of its nine parcels of property, according to the Custer County Treasurer’s office.

    County Treasurer Dawn McLaughlin said the late tax payments were unusual for the group, which had always paid its previous property tax bills on time and in cash.

    “That’s correct. They always pay in cash,” she said.”

  151. What is the significance of a “quorum” of seven wives in Mormon fundamentalism ? Does anyone know ?

  152. One for each day of the week?

  153. I missed the pedo quorum reference…?

    Also, it appears the state of Utah granted the Presidency to Jessop, now waiting for the other shoe to drop, what does Warren and Lyle say?

  154. Yes, he talks about his young brides as a quorum of 7, specifically, in his own words. It’s in the same piece where he says he will be their “boy trouble”.

  155. A quorum of wives is mentioned in this web page, in the notes: in reference to the LeBarons. I remember in the book His Favorite Wife, she talks about her husband being all proud of himself when he got his 7th wife. I’ve also heard people say that three is required to be exalted. I don’t know a scriptural source for this belief.

  156. Thanks! So many diaries, so little time! BTW I am glad Canada is bringing the flds child sex slave trade to light at this time.

    Most excellent timing!

  157. I cannot remember any reference to a quorum of seven wives in the Mormon Scriptures. Maybe some other text ?

  158. Maybe it’s just cultural. Or like many things in Islam’s Hadith’s, just an idea that grew based on writings of various teachers.

  159. S., Biblically seven is the numeral of perfection but any particular FLDS Church meaning is probably just that.

    I know that it’s an oxymoron to fundy LDSers.

  160. Does the President of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints control the UEP trust or is that seperate and still under Warren?

  161. This appeared in the Globe & Mail –

  162. Now that’s an interesting question, isn’t it watergirl.

  163. as for jeffs he remains an unspeakable ignorant arrogant piece of criminal work

  164. new at go san angelo

    “SAN ANGELO, Texas — Warren Jeffs, considered to be the leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, went to court today in Tom Green County for a pretrial that functioned as a status conference for the defense and resulted in the sealing of a witness list and a list of extraneous offenses.

    The court set dates for the final pretrial, deadlines for submitting motions and kept the trial dates in the summer and fall for the allegations of sexual assault of a child and bigamy.

    “The discovery is voluminous,” Jeff Kearney, a Fort Worth attorney representing Jeffs, said.

    (Duh, Warren has Tiger blood and Adonis DNA! errr… at least a prolific diary, anyway!)

  165. Got surveiled at the Isaac Carling cemetery but otherwise uneventful visit.

  166. 3rdCuz does anyone there ask who you are?

  167. For those who like to discuss religion and politics, a useful guide!

  168. I never had anyone down on the strip ask, had varied experiences up around SLC including at least one group who apparently knew quite well who I was kin with before I did.

  169. Terrific interview by the Canadian Press with Carolyn Jessop.

  170. @ Granny – yes, they ask who I’m related to and I tell them.

  171. @S a partial answer to one thing, Merril flying around in a private jet.

  172. Merrill ought not have any problems attending his trials in Texas. BTW, what airport/strip do they use in Texas?

  173. So if William E. Jessop is the Biological son of Alma Timpson, the prophet of Centennial Park, does there exist a possibility for some sort of merger?

  174. I seriously doubt that Merril is traveling around in a private jet. Most of the time he’s driven to where he’s going by some underling. It used to be Thugly who was the driver. Not sure who will be his driver now. As for the airstrip. Every time Willie has flown, he’s flown in and out of San Angelo’s airport on American Eagle.

  175. So Alma Adelbert must have gone by the name of “Dell?”

  176. Yes, Third Cousin… he was always ‘Uncle Dell.’

  177. Thanks E.T. I can’t stand it when I worry my genealogy might have gone awry.

  178. It wouldn’t be at all surprising if your and my genealogy isn’t intertwined some way, Third Cousin.

  179. PT but Willie hasn’t got a private plane. Yet.

  180. Willie’s probably not going to get one either. He’s never flown private before, even with the backing of the FLDS behind him.

  181. So 3rd Cuz, are you related to Unca Dell?

  182. (a family reunion taking place on FLDS Texas – where is my “like” button?)

  183. Really S.? I’ll try to tune in. Out of range some now.

  184. potentially TC, potentially..

  185. Uncle Dell – yeah, related, but not a close relative. I’m in Lee’s Ferry, Arizona right now and my internet is very spotty.

  186. Those of you who have not been here – it’s remote & breathtaking – really incredible. The Lonely Dell Ranch, where my family members took sick from ferry passengers and subsequently buried four of their young children. Wow. A tiny cemetery here at their ranch next to Lee’s Ferry.

  187. Cheers to whoever helped us delineate the willies: Thugly/ Fugly.

  188. “…it’s remote & breathtaking – really incredible.”

    Agree! I like standing in the middle of the Navajo Bridge. Got some nice pictures there in ’09.

    I’m enjoying your little travel bites, Third Cousin. Have fun!

  189. AND , PT, not only is the dairy open once again, the sign has an addition today “come one, come all!”. this definitely means something, right?

  190. Ive seen it of course all before but my family had not. Very moving to see the school where after hearing the dynamite my people sang and waited for LE, knowing already what would happen. Some of those Children did not see their parents for two years. Some of you people know what I mean, right? And those who haven’t experienced it can understand i’m sure.

  191. Actually I have no problem disclosing exactly my connections to my people – but Walton, who I am SOOO glad to meet, made me nervous because he is nervous. Why were you worried! should I be worried?

  192. Third Cousin- I wasn’t worried or nervous. I was trying to be respectful. I’ve read some of the history and it was some of your relatives that I hold in high regard.

  193. I dont pipe up much, but have been throught the area quite a bit.

    I explored the area several times 3rdC. Behind the Dell Ranch, there is some ditrius of life, shards of trash etc. I found some pistol shell casings where someone had done target practice, the casings were of a caliber unknown to me. Small but bigger than a 22.

    Close by, at the old Colorado River bridge, you can walk out, and almost always see Condors flying or resting in the rocks or beach below. Sometimes bighorn sheep are seen.

    You can take the mountain route back to Shortcreek, going over Jacobs lake, in the pines, and on that road pass House Rock Valley. A couple few miles on that dirt road to the north, is a feeding and staging area for released Condors. Binoculars needed.

    Then past Fredonia on the way to the creek, an historic stop is Pipe Springs Natl monument. Last time I visited, the tour guide dressed in a prairie dress with a poof hair style. I couldnt decided if they were seriously copying pioneer women or a parody of the communitie just to the West.

    The history of that place, is fascinating.

    It follows how the LDS (not the FLDS) Church had to give up its holdings due to the polygamy issue.

    The park website:

  194. Here’s a Mike Watkiss report and it is a coup, a power struggle between the Warrenites and followers of Willie E. Jessop;

  195. AND , PT, not only is the dairy open once again, the sign has an addition today “come one, come all!”. this definitely means something, right?
    Third Cousin said this on March 30, 2011 at 11:05 PM

    Not sure what it means except that maybe next time I’m in the area I can pick some up.

    ET, that Navajo Bridge is awesome. To realize that the river was powerful enough to cut through the rock so deeply. I was in total awe. Felt that way at the Grand Canyon too, but it really brings it home when you can see the river so clearly.

  196. The Eldorado Success is reporting that Warren purchased 447 phone cards that provided him 223.5 and 447 hours of phone time. Each card costs $18.00 and provides four 15 minute local calls or 2 15 minute long distance calls. Warren paid $8,046 for the cards.

    Must be really annoying to have to keep your sermons and exings to 15 minute intervals. I can hear the operator now – “Please swipe another card, this one is expired”.

  197. Good find AT, but the footage they showed wasn’t from yesterday’s court appearance. Schleicher County didn’t accompany him yesterday. He was driven in by Reagan County officials and met by the Texas Rangers. He was escorted home by the Texas Rangers.

  198. Good gosh…over $8 thousand for phone cards…how insane!!!

  199. Wonder what is going to happen to Warren’s gravy train now that Fugly took over the reigns to the wagon?

    That link pointed to a split, suppose some will keep giving him money, and I suppose some wont!

  200. Well–Lordy–money is not going to last very long if he keeps spending that much on phone cards…can you just imagine how many groceries that would buy…???

  201. Trib caught up with the news about the Canadian child sex slave trade –

  202. About time the trib caught up to the news!!!

  203. And the comments follow the usual pattern for the trib. Instead of saying “that’s horrible; prosecute the SOB” or even “we’re really sorry we called you folks prejudiced when you said WSJ was a child abuser, cause it sure looks like you were right”, instead they say “stop picking on polygamy; child abuse has nothing to do with it”! Boy, that gets old.

  204. Standing in the middle of the Navajo Bridge watching condors.

  205. I want a LIKE button for Third Cousin’s last comment.

  206. Me too, Betty.

    In spirit, I’m standing there too Third Cousin.

  207. PT, it’s not that the river was so powerful, you see. Time and persistence, millions of years’ time. One drop of water at a time.

    Pipe Springs and Fredonia are wonderful places, all over out there is.

  208. “I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.”- Harriet Tubman

  209. Wish you could all see this – I’m without words.

  210. Now that’s a big dam! (Glen Canyon)

  211. A well put together video featuring the condors flying and playing on Navajo bridge, nearby rock formations and petrified wood, then to Lees Ferry and the Pioneer homes and cemetery.

    Accompanied with flute music.

  212. Lake Powell has more shoreline than the coast of the western US.

  213. Don’t know if this has been seen, but the Custer County, SD (Pringle) property taxes are three years in arrears. $259,000.

  214. Betty, love that Harriet Tubman quote. And it is quite relevent, isnt it?

  215. I thought so, older anon.

  216. General Sherman is said to have had two Armies during the Civil War; One of Infantry and one of Freedmen(Slaves). I always loved Sherman’s retort to owners of lost slaves complaints about their property,”Take it up with the Federal court and if you’re a Confederate I think you’ve been freed of your civil recourse”. The more shocking aspect now for me is the sex trafficking over the Canadian border, in both directions. Shows the FLDS Church has a disrespect for Law way beyond bigamy, child endangerment, age of consent, rape and parental abbeting.

  217. Third Cousin’s travelogue (the condors sound amazing!) inspired me to go back and re-read Martha Sonntag Bradley’s account of the Boyden Raid and Prosecutions from 1944.

    Really fascinating reading. Funny how the names and descriptions of charges parallel current times.

    About the time I first read Bradley I ran across a Life magazine photograph of Rulon Allred’s family. The women look so normal, no prairie dresses or braids – just 1940s women.

    I wonder what changed so drastically to become the stereotypical FLDS woman we see today?

  218. I see that Texas Twist was here! So sorry I missed her/him.

  219. Yes, TT… we’d love to hear more from you!

    Regarding observing‘s observations regarding dress styles in the ’40s:

    The same is true of the FLDS (back then it was called “The Work”). It was well into the ’50s before things started to change. Even then it was pretty gradual… nothing like the sudden edicts Warren started dishing out after his father died.

  220. Thanks, s & E.

    In very early 2003 (not long after Rulon’s death), Warren directed the women living at Mancos (R1) to dress in a specific manner, including their hair. Those who worthy of living at the place of refuge were to make the changes immediately.

    That is how the prairie pastels became de rigueur.

    God hates florals and plaids.

    That whole discourse is covered in Warren’s dictations.

  221. That was me at 5:20.

  222. All this talk of Fredonia, the whole UT/AZ has got me so home sick! So beautiful, so warm…..

    Must visit….

    In the allred group, women ask the bishop for permission to marry a man they have their sights on. It’s very interesting to see the differences.

    Also been quite the eye opener to have family on both sides (Allred and Short creek area)

    Sometime I feel like a tumbleweed just kind of rolling along on some predetirmined path my ancestors made. I had no idea I was part of any of this until about a year ago.

    Stunning. Sometimes overwhelming. Like watching those condors

  223. Ariel – I like the tumbleweed analogy, although we have to always remember that we have choice. I too have many relatives in both AUB and Short Creek, also the Lebarons and the Canadians.

  224. TT, do you have a date handy for the dictation you referred to?

  225. And thank all that is good for choice!

    I don’t mean to allude that I am going down the same path. Just discovering.

    Any reaction at YFZ about Will (timpson?) Jessops “takeover”?

    mainstream news sources say they couldn’t get ahold of Warren/his attorney/church attorney. But has perhaps a smaller more local agency has been luckier?


    Good article

  227. It wasn’t mentioned, that I heard, in court either yesterday or today.

  228. Uh oh

    from the link


    “Documents filed in a B.C. court link a second leader from the polygamous commune of Bountiful to cross-border marriages of underage girls, contrary to his own insistence that such activity would be “disturbing”.

    Winston Blackmore..”

  229. Trial dates:

  230. the fight begins

  231. very very interesting hellohellogoodbye.

    I personally shall be watching all this unfold like a hawk.

    I think it could mean big changes.

  232. Did Rose McDermott testify in the Canadian Trial?
    Here is an opinion piece of hers based on her polysci research on the harm of polygamy

  233. Yes, Prof McDermott did testify – see the Canadian Reference Case thread for her affidavit, cross examination, and her powerpoint presentation to the court.

  234. ‘Jessop “has filed false documents … [he] has never been upheld by the church congregation as president,” Knudsen wrote in Thursday’s filing. “Common consent is required by the church.”‘

    Boyd, then how did Wendell ever become president for @ a year? I never once stood and and voiced consent nor did anyone else (and I was in all the meetings). In fact, those not doing research online didn’t even know he was on the paperwork. I would think there needs to be consistency on items like this for there to be any validity to the claims. Selectively bringing forth items to be voted on and not others isn’t consistent. Also, this common consent is a farce–if they really want church members to vote it should be a sealed ballot not a show of hands by the congregation.


  236. Amen Anon @8:34!!!

  237. anonymous 8:34 pm

    I thought that if you were a member aspiring to be in good standing you weren’t allowed to even go online, much less research information?

    How many of you do you think are searching out more information?

  238. Anon @ 8:34, you be careful. They are in a frenzy right now. Don’t get caught in the crossfire without knowing what you are doing.

  239. Whooohooo! Righteous anger at the money changers in the temple!

  240. To be a member in good standing requires that you would raise your hand. To have done otherwise would make you a traitor.

  241. @ FLDS TEXAS can you please clarify “they”.

    As in us commentators?
    Members at YFZ?
    Leaders of the FLDS?
    Mmembers at Short Creek?


  242. Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

    11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

    13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

  243. If I was going to guess, I’d say that FLDS Texas is referring to everyone in your comment except the people here.

    I’m pretty sure that Lyle wouldn’t be happy to know that someone in the “flock” was posting on this board. In the past they have been known to monitor what is said here. So Lyle honey, if you’re reading, FU!!!

  244. Oh, and I have my FU certificate and am in good standing to pass out the FUs!!!

  245. “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.


    Winston’s taking a beating.

  247. Ariel

    I think the reference is at the creek or where ever? Without a doubt, this is the most fractious thing to happen since, what, the Barlows were exed and cops were all over town?

    At least in this case, Jessop is out of state, but that said, dozens of freshly exed people are still around and there may be more issues that arise. A situation for concern.

    I read Lyle signed an affidavit, its obvious this has gotten under his skin. Likely Jessop wouldnt consider him Bishop for long.

  248. Karma’s a beyotch.

  249. Affidavit # 2 of Texas Ranger Nick Hanna for the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy identifying the officiants and witnesses participating in underage marriages of underage FLDS Canadian girls – officiants identified as Rulon Jeffs and Warren Jeffs, Winston Blackmore named as a witness of underage marriages, and Winston Blackmore identified as giving an underage daughter in marriage.

  250. Thanks so much stamp! 🙂

    And PT…loved the FU posts. Interesting to know they consider this blog to be influential enough to monitor it.

    however I did hear about this very blog by FLDS memebers…

    GO US!!!

  251. PT

    That article mentions Oler, do we know what happened to him?

    I forgot.

  252. And go them!…..refering to them who told me about this blog and others seeking information….

    And go humanity!!!

    (feeling very positive tonight, high hopes for the world)

  253. Here’s the Houston Chronicles take on the FLDS power struggle;

    IMO Willie Jessop would have not acted if he did feel he had the support of the majority of the rank & file, definitely a church split, with two possible rival FLDS churches, as Mike Watkiss pointed out in video posted this morning, the possibility of violence lies with how the FLDS controlled police react, if they throw in with Jessop, then a flight of Warrenites to YFZ will occur. If they throw in with the Warrenites then violence is possible with the states of AZ & Utah having to step in.

    IMO a headache for Sheriff Doran no matter how it goes because of YFZ.

  254. When we were in the crick yesterday we noticed at least two men on corners looking like sentries or monitors. As we turned into the cemetery somebody phoned somebody and we were soon met by a man who wondered what we were doing there. When I told him we were visiting family members graves, he did offer to help us find any we couldn’t locate. And there were a couple of the econoline vans there too.

  255. From the Chron article:

    “Rod Parker, an attorney who represents the FLDS church in civil matters, declined to comment Thursday.

    In 2007, while in a southern Utah jail, Jeffs seemingly ceded the presidency of the 10,000-member church to Jessop.

    “I know of your ordination, that you are the key holder, and I have sent a note with my signature so that there is no question,” Jeffs told Jessop in the Jan. 24, 2007, telephone call. A recording of that call and others were released by the Utah courts.

    In other calls at the time, Jeffs told family members and other church leaders that the presidency belonged to Jessop.”

    (as seen on youtube)

  256. TC

    Wow, thats rather spooky. Twilight zonish.

  257. Can anyone recommend a seminar toward obtaining one’s FU certification? I can only hope there’s a long and intensive internship.

  258. As I recall, you just need to read some of Jeffs dictations.

    By the third page – it’ll come out!

  259. Cuz, I got mine by way of seizing control, kinda like Timpson-Jessop did to Lyle. Other than that, our resident FU expert, Fred, will have to fill in the details of obtaining one’s certificate. Fred doesn’t come around much, so you’ll have to stay alert to catch him.

    Stamp, my best information on Oler says Jim is out, Ken declined to become bishop, so they sent Lamar Johnson up from the Crick to Bountiful to be Bishop and Principal. Lamar’s the son of Uncle Roy.

    Word around the courthouse is that Willie, Merril and Wendell were all in Texas today, but headed back toward Utah around lunch time. If they aren’t back at the Crick yet, their arrival should be eminent.

  260. BiB honey, I love you, but since you posted that new Ranger Nick affidavit, I’ll have to stay up and try to decipher it with my nifty decoder ring. I was actually thinking of going to bed early tonight too.

  261. OHHHH Oler is out? Thats dandy, thatll give him more time to argue with Canada!

    Speaking of which, I read the Canada AG answer on the Canadian thread, shortest piece of legal document ever seen! To the point!


  262. PT, I am not finished posting yet. Stay tuned.

  263. Transcript of Proceedings 3-30-11 Canadian Reference Case

  264. Third Cousin,
    A few years ago I visited Lee’s Ferry/Lonely Dell because I was interested in John D. Lee and the Mountain Meadows Massacre story.

    I was so surprised to find the ranch much more dedicated to the Johnson family than the Lee family.

    My friend who accompanied me was awestruck that LeRoy S. Johnson was born there, since she was from Colorado City and he had been the prophet of her church. She just went along with our excursion because I wanted to visit the place and she had no idea LSJ was born and raised there.

    I was looking for Lee history and instead found Johnson history. There are many plaques outside of the cabins depicting the Johnson family members who were born and raised here.

    This confused me. Do you think the LDS church changed the ranch’s historical focus because of the unfavorable reputation of John D. Lee?

  265. Third Cousin,

    This is part 2 of my question to you.

    I am going to visit Johnson’s Canyon soon. I thought Johnson’s Canyon was named for Price Johnson, brother of Warren Johnson (who was the father of LeRoy S. Johnson.)

    I am now beginning to think that there are 2 Johnson Canyons. One in Washington County and one in Kane County.

    I have read about Johnson Canyon and have been told conflicting stories.

    Do you know where the “Price Johnson” Johnson Canyon is? That is the one I want to explore.

    Thanks in advance for your input, and enjoy the condors and the serenity of Lonely Dell!

  266. Third Cousin,
    Some people are just BORN TO RULE and you are obviously one of them.

    By the powers invested in me, I hereby ordain you with the FU credentials.

    Love, Fred

  267. Fred – I’m overwhelmed. Thanks! I’m committed to using my powers for good.

    Gotta go to bed – anon 11:35 – I’ll try to give some answers tomorrow. In SLC staying with family.

  268. Another unrelated aside— I NEVER watch the cartoon South Park, but it was on when I walked into the room. It was their version of Joseph Smith, the Gold Plates and the Book of Mormon being translated out of a hat… With the chorus in the backround singing “dum dum dum dum dum”, over and over.
    It was pretty amusing. As this cartoon is known for pi**ing off, just about every religion and ethnic group, I’m sure this one was no exception.

  269. Yep, the almighty Seer, Prophet and Revelator using Peeping Stones.

    He later decided to change the “magic hat” trick into using the magical Urim and Thrumim to decipher the magical peeping stones.

    What a guy!

  270. Fred, how long do I have to keep on waiting?

  271. Oh, cousin Joe just likes the attention and besides he never could keep his britches buttoned.

  272. And yes they sure do re-write history as needed.

  273. You don’t find a whole lot about bishop Klingensmith, another of my cousins. I was kinda surprised that he babtized a whole bunch of my own dead ancestors and even gave ’em impossibly wrong mamas for the record.

  274. Could just be the sequence of events but the FLDS members that filed both a Utah Supreme Court and Federal Court claim over the UEPTrust haven’t yet gotten a specific finding from the Federal Court, stating the corrective course for the trust, i.e. dissolve, ownership to Jeffs, status quo or ? The Utah Supreme Court has received briefs after declaring the parties claims invalid owing to laches and have not spoken/ruled further.

    Meanwhile this corporate filing by Bishop Williwm E Jessop has been made and now contested by the registered agent and other FLDS elders. Can these two situations be related and/or pre-emptive of either Utah or Fedral Court ruling(s). Is this a strategic move to claim the ‘High Ground’? The ‘handling’ of 25+ members sems to play a role here.

    What has happened to the second set of 600 packets that were mailed out last week, did some postal action seize them or have they been received?

  275. The latest article written by Daphne Bramham on the Canadian Polygamy Reference Case –

  276. I love the ending BiB


    “n his brief closing on behalf of Beyond Borders, which works to end international child sexual exploitation, David Matas boiled the case down to its barest essentials.

    Polygamy facilitates the exploitation of children, making it harder to detect and report. That, he said, is justification enough to make the law constitutional, since children have a guaranteed right to security.

    “The violation of that right has to weigh more heavily in the balance than the right of freedom of expression or religion of adults manifested by allowing them to live in polygamous communities.”

    Read more:

  277. Here is an interesting article about the FLDS community in Montana, sounds like Warren never dug in deep there, wonder why…

  278. Well, the idea that the fourth generation is leaving Montana is in harmony with my theory of polygamist math and a closed community. In order for the first generations of polygamist to have up to four wives, they must take them from succeeding generations. At generation 4, the young men are waiting well into their late 20s and early 30s to get wives and the young women are all marrying men from older generations. By the 7th generation, the youngest group of young men will never get a wife of their own from within their own community. This is the reason that marrying younger and younger women is a given in polygamy anywhere in the world, and not an accident happening at the same rate as in monogamist cultures.

  279. Hi Betty,
    So your prediction is that if not kicked out as per warren the fourth generation of MEN will leave? Why also women?

  280. I think that we should start taking bets on when the RCMP will arrest Winston Blackmore and James Oler. Whoever is closest on guessing the date wins all the money – anyone want to venture a guess ?

  281. Over 65% of children born into the AUB group leave the group according to their own statistics.

  282. That Montana article characterizes Pinesdale as ‘FLDS’ several times. Pinesdale is AUB, not FLDS. It can only remotely be called FLDS because they are Fundamentalist Mormons who believe much the same as FLDS do; just a different control/leadership structure, habits and evolution.

    Rulon Allred’s AUB is an offshoot from “The Work” which is what the FLDS called themselves back in the day. The FLDS moniker came into being when Rulon Jeffs incorporated the church, pulling the UEP Trust under the FLDS Corporation umbrella – I think back in the mid-90’s.

    Control of the FLDS Corporation Presidency is what is now being fought for between Warren and William E.

    Personally, I think the fight is more between Lyle and William E. since the position of Bishop of Short Creek is at stake. Lyle is the signer, not Warren.

  283. HHG, the article from Montana that you cite is about the AUB in Montana, not the FLDS. 65% of young people born in the group leave.

  284. The trouble Warrenites are gonna have, are Warren’s own words…

    On January 24, 2007, Warren Jeffs placed a jail phone call to Colorado, where he spoke with William E. Jessop. The call lasted two minutes and was recorded.

    Here is a transcript of their call.


    Warren Jeffs: Hello

    William E. Jessop: Hello sir.

    Warren Jeffs: You can hear me?

    William Jessop: Yes sir.

    Warren Jeffs: Okay. I have this message. The lord has intervened and detected me to myself. He has shown me that I have not held priesthood since I was 20 years old, having been immoral with a sister and a daughter. And father pointing his finger to me was father’s test on all of us.

    I know of your ordination, that you are the keyholder and I have sent a note with my signature verifying it so that there is no question, according to Section 43, although not valid.

    All the ordinance work since father’s passing has to be redone and there’s many men that were sent away that do hold priesthood and their families will need to be put back.

    And then to say this to you. I am one of the most wicked men on the face of the earth since the days of Father Adam.


    Have you been able to hear me?

    William Jessop: Sure.

    Warren Jeffs: Thank you and goodbye. You’ll need to . . . [Jessop interrupts him]

    William Jessop: Good luck.

    Warren Jeffs: Thank you.

  285. can anyone verify if wendel or merril are backing william t jessops claim to the presidency

  286. Great question Anon–I wonder that too….

    and also…was William t one of the ones that was kicked out??

    I could go look at the list..but…too lazy…

  287. Winston Blackmore is now refusing to take calls from the press when they request information regarding his involvement in underage marriages.

  288. The women will leave because they are all marrying men much older. And, yes, I agree that by the numbers, the majority leave.

  289. jobo

    I was corrected on the names, and that info is below.

    Jessop however was sent to Pringle (now some $250,000 in arrears in taxes) but was also told by Warren he was the real prophet as seen above. He was overlooked to be exed AFAIK in the latest round, though there may have been internal strife issues. Likely.


    New FLDS President:

    His actual name is William Edson Timpson.

    When the split occurred years ago his mother was remarried to Uncle Fred Jessop and he became William Edson Jessop.

    I’m not sure if that’s his “legal name” or not.

    exed spokesman is “Willie” William Roy Jessop.

  290. It seems to be missed by the Canadian reference case closing that the presence of polygyny, practice of polygyny and making a tenet of faith forms a very unique religious lifestyle sect. The hierarchy of prophet, priesthood men in power and wives or children as submissive property sets up a foreground for abuses.Slave societies are known to derive much of it’s power from instituting and suppressing the slaves. Placing the spisritual focus upon celestial exaltation, sets up the value on aquiring at least three (3) wives. Once three wives are acquired then rising in the power structure is viewed as important and desirable. The group focus on exaltation is magnified when elders, bishops and the prophet acquire over three wives and dozens of additional children. Then the whole polygyny economy and politics of the group revolves around more than three wives and more and more children.

    As Carolyn Jessop has pointed out in her books the FLDS Church trades, uses as currency and the group dynamic revolves around greater exaltation of the individual priesthood men by the emphasis on more and more wives and greater children. Warren’s suspected 80+wives and over 50+ children or Winston Blackmore’s 25+wives and over 100+ children points to how inflated this exaltation of priesthood men can become a totally abusive situation. No one can argue or defend that one man can be a husband or father to such an exaggerated family group. Parental nuturing, quality time, child grooming, familial dynamics and individual talents are lost within such a grossly numbered family group and society is deminished by the inferior members such a system will likely produce.

  291. I do wish (but not likely to happen) people would quit focusing on the whole “3 wives” bit. Making it to the Celestial Kingdom (versus Terrestrial or Telestial in Mormon theology) IS NOT predicated on having at least 3 wives. Pshaw!!

    I don’t know how or who came up with that nonsense, but seems to have become popular de rigueur when it is in reality a false notion. (media promoted? – misunderstood?)

    Maybe this is an arguable notion; perhaps I’m in the dark ages, and this is some kind of ‘new-age’ Mormon (or even FLDS) teaching now? My old-school learned priesthood teachers taught me 100% different.

  292. ET,

    I think it started with John Y Barlow. When Rulon Jeffs received his third wife, it was so he could qualify to be an apostle, according to what I have read. If it started anywhere in the “priesthood” circles, that is probably where it started.

  293. You are correct, Anonymous 1:14. Three wives is/was required to be ordained an Apostle… a High Priest Apostle. That is a rarity, not the norm for Elders, Patriarchs or any other priesthood calling. Just the Apostleship.

  294. ET – what does this statement from the Mormon fundamentalism website mean ?
    Warren Jeffs (and other Mormon “fundamentalists”) believe that the more wives they marry in mortality, the greater their eternal reward. Lorin Woolley appears to have been the first to discuss this idea. In 1932 he taught: “To be the head of a Dispensation, 7 wives [are] necessary. [To be the head of] the Patriarchal Order must have 5 wives. [To be] President of the Church – 3 wives [are necessary].”[18] Warren Jeffs is said to have more than seventy wives and it is known that he married several of his father’s (Rulon Jeffs) wives shortly after his father’s death in 2002.[19] The Allreds,[20] LeBarons,[21] Kingstons,[22] and essentially all fundamentalists seem to hold true to this notion.[23]

  295. What is a “dispensation” and what is a “patriarchal order”?

  296. It is somewhere in Warren’s dictations. Just where escapes me at the moment.

  297. And why would you have to have fewer wives to be president?

  298. This discussion of dispensations is from an LDS website.

    “A gospel dispensation is a period of time in which the Lord has at least one authorized servant on the earth who bears the keys of the holy priesthood.

    Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and others have each started a new gospel dispensation. When the Lord organizes a dispensation, the gospel is revealed anew so that the people of that dispensation do not have to depend on past dispensations for knowledge of the plan of salvation.”

  299. what is a patriarchal order ? and should the quote above about dispensation be interpreted to mean that Jesus as a leader of a dispensation had 7 wives ???

  300. ET the ‘three wives bit is the taught tenet of the fundamentalist FLDS who claim it derives from Doctines & Covenants 132. I am not espousing this belief but rather looking upon the inner well spring that drives the politics and accepted order of this FLDS sect. Carolyn Jessop states that ‘Child Brides’ is the real currency or legal tender of this group and the prophet as ‘Mourh’ controls who is exalted and who is not. The number of three (3) brides is not specifically mentioned in the D & C but the keys to the prophet to be the sole authority to seal any celestial marriage sure is plainly stated. The ‘New and Everlasting Covenant’ is, in fact celestial marriage and not terrestrial or telestial. Seems like all of the fundamentalist priesthood men reason out that they have fervency for only the highest Heavenly existence.

  301. Days like this, time on my computer is a hit-and-run proposition.

    @Chemist… thank you for your post; much better-said and more succinct than I can say.

    @BinB… Sorry, but IMO, the Mormon fundamentalism website is biased and wrong about a lot of things: biased because it’s authored by an LDS man and he doesn’t know all the differences between his personal LDS religion/beliefs/practices and those of true-blue fundamentalists. Lay persons are not going to be able to make correct distinctions

    Patriarchal Order refers (in FLDS terms) to managing family life and responsibilities in righteousness and obedience to correct authority. It’s also been characterized as “the family order of heaven.”

    Patriarchal Marriage is synonymous with Celestial Marriage, The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage etc., which is any marriage (monogamous or polygamous) administered by correct authority… he who holds the sealing keys.

    For Patriarchal Order in general Mormon terms I’ll refer you to:

    Of course any reference in LDS writings to “marriage in the temple” is not applicable to FLDS practice until after the return of Christ when He will set the [LDS] Church in order and all the temples will be re-dedicated and turned over to… … the FLDS.

    Quoted from the above link:
    “Men who unrighteously use the priesthood or the patriarchal order to get their way, or to force their wives, children, or others to do anything by virtue of the priesthood, are exercising what is called ‘unrighteous dominion’, which is against the gospel of Jesus Christ and teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

  302. thank you for the clarification ET.

  303. @Betty… I’ve NEVER heard any requirement for number of wives EXCEPT to be ordained a High Priest Apostle who is (in FLDS terms) the president of priesthood and prophet.

    (President of the FLDS Corporation can be anybody the president of priesthood designates.)

    Warren is a supremely deluded mortal, who has mastered the art of mind control and manipulation. One of his delusions is, the more wives you have the better. The god he purports to worship will call him on that bit.

  304. @CAJim… I’m really not an argumentative type… but… you said:

    “…the ‘three wives bit is the taught tenet of the fundamentalist FLDS who claim it derives from Doctines & Covenants 132.”

    I would have to argue with you on that point – it is not a tenet. If it is preached by today’s FLDS, it has only been since Warren took over. And remember, Warren, for all intents and purposes, took over long before his incapacitated father died and well before the migration to Short Creek.

    You also said:
    “Carolyn Jessop states that ‘Child Brides’ is the real currency or legal tender of this group and the prophet as ‘Mourh’ controls who is exalted and who is not.”

    I cannot argue with Carolyn about her personal observations regarding child brides being ‘legal tender.’ That may very well be the case – again – since Warren usurped authority. It was not the case while I was in.

    As for the prophet controlling who is exalted and who is not… no way can I go along with that. That is up to God himself, not to even the most faithful of mortals.

    If the people actually believe that now, then the Warren mind control machine has gone beyond even my ability to fathom – which is already completely over the edge.

    For me to be convinced otherwise, I would have to hear it from a true-blue, in good standing Warrenite. Not likely at this point.

  305. ET, I think Warren was into mind control and he taught that only he controlled who was exalted and who was not. That’s how he bred so much fear into the flock.

  306. Was he not a reader and admirer of Adolph Hitler, the master of mind control?

  307. E Texas: Your definition of Marriage by the new and everlasting covenant or Celestioal marriage is consistent with LDS teaching. In the LDS practice such marriages take place in LDS Temples.

  308. E.T. I have heard many times “No one can get into heaven without the approval of the prophet.”

    Brigham Young said:

    “If we can pass the sentinel Joseph the Prophet, we shall go into the celestial kingdom, and not a man can injure us. If he says, ‘God bless you, come along here’; if we will live so that Joseph will justify us, and say, ‘Here am I, brethren,’ we shall pass every sentinel.”

  309. I expect there will be a whole lot of people who THINK they are going to be ushered right into Heaven because of some good deed they have done or because of their “leader.” I’m thinking Christ is the One who paved the way and His grace and mercy. Period.

  310. OK ET I would like for you to go to the FLDS Church website and reference Bishop Donald Richter’s article, named ,’Doctrinal Basis for Modern Plural Marriage’ he references Orson Pratts August 29, 1852 sermon/speech as the basis for the plural marriage[celestial marriage] and he states that the requirement is three (3) wedlocks. My statement about the need to be exalted you are twisting by saying only Father God can grant exaltation, I was discussing the prerequisite to becoming exalted, i.e. three (3) wives. I believe Orson Pratts sermon/speech is in the Journal of Doctrines, Chapter 26.

    Wikipedia defines the five distictive teachings/tenets of the FLDS Church, which would distinguish it from the modern LDS Church, as being 1.) Adam-God belief, 2.) United Order, 3.) Blood Atonement, 4.) Celestial Marriage [Plural/Polygamy], 5.) Curse of Ham/Cain. Argue it any way you choose but without a ‘Temple recommend’ nor a Celestial ‘Mourh’ no plural marriages will transpire. In fact Bishop Merril Jessop is charged with conducting such a ceremony with a minor ‘Child Bride’. As I understand it Warren does practice ‘The Law of Placing’ which if you read his dictations shows that he sealed celestial marriages that he chose as well as re-assignments.

  311. CaJim, the Truth Will Prevail website no longer exists, but it is for sale.

  312. wait, is the link CaJim, not

  313. Thanks, BinB I goofed the address but not the authenticate FLDS Church source of Donald Richter.

    ADMIN: Fixed

  314. Since the subject of treatment of women came up FLDS compared to LDS, found this sermon by a LDS leader:

    From article: “President Kimball also declared, “We have heard of men who have said to their wives, ‘I hold the priesthood and you’ve got to do what I say.’” He decisively rejected that abuse of priesthood authority in a marriage, declaring that such a man “should not be honored in his priesthood” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 316).”

  315. Here’s an article in the San Angelo paper talking about Warren Jeffs and Canada, most who follow this blog are all ready aware of the crimes it mentions.

  316. 3rd Cuz, a relative?

    Birth Date: 06/08/74
    Address : 7356 S 9200 E, Apple Valley, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    08:03:05 04/01/11 Jensen, Brian WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

    Birth Date: 05/11/90
    Address : 154 S CENTER ST, Enterprise, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    20:30:00 03/31/11 Jessop, J ENTP

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

    Birth Date: 12/29/90
    Address : 1094 N 1550 W; #8, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    23:56:00 03/30/11 Biehl, Mark SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  319. Fred, how long do I have to keep on waiting?

    GrannyToad said this on April 1, 2011 at 1:01 AM

    Granny dear, why are you waiting on me? Anyone related to Philip Klingonsmith already has the FU powers.

    You don’t need some little Internet pissant like me to give them to you!

    You’re like Dorothy in OZ, you already have what you need! You were born with the FU-ability.

    Go and FU worldwide.


  320. I think that we should start taking bets on when the RCMP will arrest Winston Blackmore and James Oler. Whoever is closest on guessing the date wins all the money – anyone want to venture a guess ?

    Keeping Sweet said this on April 1, 2011 at 8:14 AM

    Keep Sweet, I’ll take that bet. My arrest date guess is Tuesday, April 26th.


  321. Winston Blackmore is now refusing to take calls from the press when they request information regarding his involvement in underage marriages.

    Born In Brooklyn said this on April 1, 2011 at 10:31 AM

    Winston is such a chicken-s**t and a loser. Maybe the press should visit the school or the new community center or the “Biffy in a Jiffy” business and catch him there.

  322. Here’s a fascinating link on history of Joseph Smith, has accurate IMO descriptions of events leading up to Smith’s assassination, even photos of gun Joseph Smith used to defend himself, it miss-fired after 3 shoots according to article from online book.

    Chapters 21 & 22 are most fascinating on this subject. IMO book is written from LDS point of view, but provides many not well know facts such events that happened in Joseph Smith’s life.

  323. No one can argue or defend that one man can be a husband or father to such an exaggerated family group. Parental nuturing, quality time, child grooming, familial dynamics and individual talents are lost within such a grossly numbered family group and society is deminished by the inferior members such a system will likely produce.

    CAJim said this on April 1, 2011 at 11:15 AM

    CAJim, this is one reason why Sara Hammon’s father asked her, EVERY time he saw her, what her name was and who her mother was.

    Marion Hammon had 75 children and he just couldn’t remember them all.

    Can you imagine what that did to the children’s self-esteem to have your own father not recognize you or know who you were?

    Nurturing? Not in that polygamous family!!!

  324. Back to my computer and it appears I’m being a tad challenged. Disclaimer: I’ve been out a long time. I don’t read scripture anymore. I may not recall everything I was taught in perfect detail. Describing some of what I was taught is all I’m trying to do here. As I’ve said before, I’m not here to debate belief. Been there, done that in the past. I find it totally unrewarding.

    Now I’ll just try to be as clear as I can and let the chips fall where they may.

    @Chemist: Absolutely right.

    @Cement: No dispute on what you said. The prophet you speak of is Joseph Smith, head of this last dispensation and third in the Godhead. In these latter days, all must pass through him. I was talking about modern fundamentalist ‘prophets.’ It was not my understanding the faithful would have to pass their inspection (so to speak) on their way to the celestial kingdom. I could be wrong, but I never heard it preached that way..


    @CAJim: Okay, I did go to the truthwillprevail website you referenced. Nowhere on that site could I find where “…he states that the requirement is three (3) wedlocks.” I did a site search: ( three wives site: ) I even found Orson Pratt’s 1852 sermon online (I gave away my Journal of Discourses set a long time ago) and the word “three” does not appear anywhere except for his reference to “three cubic yards of sand.”.

    As for your, “… statement about the need to be exalted you are twisting by saying only Father God can grant exaltation, I was discussing the prerequisite to becoming exalted, i.e. three (3) wives.”…..

    All I’m saying is if three wives is a prerequisite to exaltation, it wasn’t preached across the pulpit nor in our families during my tenure (40+ years). The only time a three-wife prerequisite was necessary was to be ordained a High Priest Apostle.

    I’m not contesting the “five distinctive teachings/tenets of the FLDS Church” you mentioned nor Merril’s or Warren’s known practices regarding marriages. I wasn’t arguing anything on those scores… not sure what you were trying to say there.

    Goodnight folks!

  325. ET, you said about the 3 wives mandate “I don’t know how or who came up with that nonsense, but seems to have become popular de rigueur when it is in reality a false notion. (media promoted? – misunderstood?)”

    My guess is that is that it WAS probably “media promoted” and most likely by that “polygamy beat” reporter in Utah.

  326. I am entering the Blackmore / Oler Arrest date pool : I bet for May 15

  327. From Daphne Bramham 4/1/11 Vancouver Sun –

    VANCOUVER — The B.C. government got another blast Friday for its failure to deal with the fundamentalist Mormon community of Bountiful during the closing arguments in the reference case to determine whether the current law prohibiting polygamy is valid.

    Robin Trask, lawyer for the B.C. Teachers Federation, said the government has failed in its duty to ensure that the children in the polygamous community are getting a proper education. She blamed both the Independent School Act and the people who administer it.

    On Thursday, Cheryl Milne of the Canadian Coalition for the Rights of Children and the David Asper Centre for Constitutional Rights accused the government of six decades of “acquiescence” when it comes to Bountiful.

    She said it has violated the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child by failing to protect them from sexual exploitation, abuse, trafficking and by failing to provide them with the educational opportunities they are entitled to.

    Several experts testified during the trial that poor educational outcomes are common in all polygamous communities worldwide, witnesses who remain in Bountiful and who have left the community indicated gaps in what they were taught.

    There are two schools in Bountiful that combined received nearly $2 million a year in funding under the government’s Independent School Act. The one school – Bountiful Elementary Secondary School – (BESS) is operated by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the other is Mormon Hills School, which is operated by another fundamentalist Mormon group led by Winston Blackmore.

    In the past 20 years, only 13 students who have ever attended BESS have completed Grade 12 and only seven have received adult graduation diplomas.

    Since MHS opened in 2003/04, six students have received Grade 12 certificates and five have received adult graduation diplomas.

    Independent schools are required to teach is “critical thinking,” Trask said. Students by the end of Grade 6 are also expected to be able to “assess equality and fairness in Canada with reference to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms” and “compare individual and collective rights and responsibilities in Canada with those in other countries.”

    Additionally, they are supposed to be taught sex education, life skills and given career counselling.

    Even though the schools have been inspected more often than other independents, Trask quoted several witnesses who said they were never taught any of that.

    Truman Oler said religious instruction took up as much as two hours of every day. All that he was taught about the Charter was that it protected religious freedom. And far from being taught to think critically, Oler remembered being instructed to “obey everything you were told by the prophet or the bishop.”

    An FLDS member – who testified anonymously as Witness #3 – said no one at the school seemed surprised when at 17 she was married to a man in his early 40s or that the sister-wife whom she rode the bus with was only 15.

    Trask noted that when Edward Vanderboom, the independent school inspector, testified that he was not aware of any inspectors asking about the marital status of any of the students. Asked if it would concern him that a Grade 9 student was married to a man in his 40s, Vanderboom replied that it would “give pause for reflection and we would likely need to consider what actions we would need to take and what further enquiries we would need to engage in.”

    She noted that the independent school authorities are required to report suspected abuse.

    Witness #3 said sex education was never taught nor were life skills. Although she is taking summer courses at a Utah college, she wasn’t aware until she was told in court that her Grade 12 certificate from BESS would not be accepted by any Canadian university.

    In closing, Trask said the BCTF supports the continued criminalization of polygamy.

    However, she said, it believes the law should be interpreted so that women and girls are not criminals since they have only married once. It’s only those who take multiple spouses who are criminals.

  328. The Dishonest Hindsight Report?

  329. And yeah, Fred, I got it. You can. I can’t.

  330. HDNet Channel 306 on Direct TV
    Economy of Polygamy 11:00 AM Eastern Time

  331. Whoops
    Saturday, April 2
    HDNet Channel 306 on Direct TV
    Economy of Polygamy 11:00 AM Eastern Time

  332. Here is the closing statement of the British Columbia Teacher’s Federation for the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy which was referenced by Daphne Bramham

  333. Anonymous 7:30 am, who is being interviewed on that program ? Dr Shoshanah Grosbard ? I have her affidavit for the Canadian Reference Case –

  334. Here is a link to the closing statement of the Canadian Coalition for the Rights of Children for the Reference Case

  335. Link for the Closing Statement of Beyond Borders, an international organization which opposes child abuse and trafficking of children for purposes of prostitution or sexual contact –

  336. BinB, I missed this earlier:
    “…and should the quote above about dispensation be interpreted to mean that Jesus as a leader of a dispensation had 7 wives ???”

    Born In Brooklyn said this on April 1, 2011 at 2:28 PM

    I really don’t know what mainstream LDS believe about Jesus’ personal family life. But FLDS are adamant that Jesus had several wives, as did Adam in the Garden of Eden. I am unable to provide “proof” in FLDS writings. It’s probably in various recorded sermons which I have little access to nor time to ferret out.

  337. Poor Jesus, we twist him into whatever we want him to be, don’t we? Most Christians believe he had no wife at all. At the time of Jesus, it would have been very unusual for a rabbi (which is what he was) to have had no wife or many wives.

  338. Thanks again ET. Here is a link to the affidavit of Prof Shoshana Grosbard for the Canadian Reference Case on polygamy. Dr. Grosbard is an expert on women and economics, specifically the economics of polygamy and the economic effects of polygamy on women who is popularly known as “The Econ of Love” She is probably going to be the presenter for the HDTV program Anon 7:30 am referenced.

  339. It is highly unlikely that Jesus was married as the Babylonian Talmud records that Jesus was viewed as a mamzer – and no Jewish father would allow his daughter to marry a mamzer. David Instone – Brewer, PhD, wrote an excellent piece on this subject in his book, “Divorce and Remarriage in the Bible.”

  340. Whoa, Adam had multiple wives? I never heard that before. Noah only had one. If he had more, only one was saved from the flood. Jacob would have only had 1 wife if he hadn’t been tricked by his father-in-law. Isaac only had 1 wife. He had a child with his wife’s servant though.

  341. ET you are correct that Donald Richter doesn’t specify three wives to become eligible for exaltation that, however is known to be the general number held by the FLDS of which he is a Bishop and would not hold that position if he weren’t a priesthood polygynist in good standing. A recent book called ‘Nauvoo Polygamy’ states that the majority of practicing polygamists had two wives but that 20% had 3-4 wives and were generally held to be the more proper number of plural wives. The Prophet Abraham had children by Sarah, Hagar and Keturah which harkens back to the Abrahamic Covenant as a Old Testament example or model to justify the celestial marriage tenet, that is used by Donald Richter in one of his series of articles on the doctrinal basis. Using past church presidents as models the number of wives far exceeds the three wives criterion by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and John Taylor.

    My purpose in pointing out that the prophet holds the priesthood key for ‘The nNew and everlasting Covenant’ is to show the level of control, authority and power that it wields, especially when ‘The Law of Placing’ is included. This priesthood key to the covenant and placement by the prophet goes back to Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs didn’t start either teaching but he sure knows how to wield it’s powers, including taking over 75+ wives to himself.

  342. On the sltrib comment section someone is publishing a list of the underage girls that have been trafficked between Canada and the US,the list is long and directed at the FBI.

  343. Noah had only one wife. The Talmud teaches that monogamy was God’s original plan for the human race based on these facts 1) only one spouse was created for Adam, and 2)when the world was repopulated after the flood, only monogamists were on the Ark (Noah and his sons were all monogamists)

  344. Sorry, I cannot justify anyone’s stories to support their beliefs.

    With FLDS it’s just ‘believe what we say and obey’ (do not question the prophet). Wishing for signs and tokens shows a lack of faith. O ye of little faith!

    Personally, I don’t know and I don’t care how many wives the ancients had.

  345. C-M, the same list you cite is also posted on Go San Angelo, citing the previous work of fincenmib and his previous communications with the FBI on the topic of trafficking in child brides – and his communications were not followed up on….

  346. Your points are well taken, CAJim.

  347. apocryphal stories and myths give Adam more than one wife. The most common story is that of Lilith. She was created as an equal to Adam from the same earth and at the same time. She refused to be subservient to Adam, had sex with an angel and was destroyed by God. Then God made a new wife for Adam and made her subservient. I figure it’s all a story to make women think God wants them to be door mats, myself.

  348. Yes Betty, my electronic Talmudim, that story of Lilith is from the Kabbalah if I remember correctly.

  349. Is there a link to the comment that is naming the girls? I’d like to see how close my guesses are.

  350. I know a have read about the 3 wives requirement in a context neither LDS-sponsored nor journalistic. I’ll try to ferret that out. The 7 wife quorum I read about in the various memoirs of the Lebarons, including Verlan’s.

  351. 3C, are you still traveling or are you back home?

    I looked at that list in the Standard Times and the biggest problem I see with it is that they didn’t have birth dates and dates of marriage to corroborate their data. They say so and so is 15. In one case I know that they are wrong, the girl was 17. I think the FBI might have put more stock in it if they had had brith and marriage dates. The Canadians have that information so it will be a little harder to look the other way.

    The US Border Patrol could go to the YFZ at any time and deport several Canadian “wives” of Warren, including at least one of the two he married when she was 12 and Mildred who he married at 13. Both signed the Proclamation threatening the President at the ranch.

  352. PT – driving home from SLC today. If you give me tentative names I can probably help with birth dates when I’m back among my research materials.

  353. I’ve been mostly working on the Blackmore line 3C. I did figure out that Tiffany Oler from the last Canadian triple play Warren orchestrated is the daughter of Ken Oler. The other 2 were both daughters of Mac Blackmore. Gloria Maureen being the daughter of Rosalyn Williams and Lillian Luverne from another wife.

  354. ET the fact that the ‘Nauvoo Polygamy’ book states that 80% of polygamists, back in the day, had two wives certainly underscores that three to four was not the majority position by a long ways. The greatest damage, in my view, done by Warren Jeffs is his success at instituting ‘One man Rule’ which has led to the gulag ‘Lands of Refuge’ and the cloistering of this covert sects abuses.

  355. Correction!
    Not the sltrib. it is in the gosangelo paper comment section.

  356. Right you are, Bib. First mention of Lilith in the Babylonian Talmud circa 500 AD.

  357. But it should be noted that Lilith and Eve were NOT concurrent wives, but serial.

  358. From “Light and Truth” on gosanangelo as linked above. Cleaned up some.


    “Don’t allow the FBI to use a pass card on this subject, they were aware of alledged names over 10 years ago. Some of the FBI phone calls were recorded. Revelations in 2008 maybe, but we gave names in 2000 & 2001 and agencies back then were still ignoring us;

    Content of another email sent to;

    Here are some names. I hope this will be of help to your investigation.




    WARREN JEFFS married KENDALL JOHNSON’S daughter underage. Her mother is a MACKERT

    DIANNA LANE (ED LANE’S DAUGHTER) 16 or 17, went to Canada to visit her sister that was married to Winston Blackmore. She ended up married to him underage.

    ALVIN BARLOW has 4 daughters married to Winston Blackmore. One: (EDITH) WAS DEFINITELY MARRIED TO HIM UNDERAGE!

    JOHN JOHNSON has 4 daughters married to Winston Blackmore. (SHARON AND MARJORIE) were underage!


    CAMILLE STEED (LAWRENCE STEED’S DAUGHTER) cohabitated with BOB BARLOW (son of DAN BARLOW) at the age of 16.



    Marsha Chatwin (mother:Esther Young & father: Marvin Wyler) 17 when she married Winston Blackmore.

    Esther Ruth age( same parents as Marsha) 13– just got married to a young guy!

    Deanna Chatwin 14–married Guy Blackmore an older guy –later 40’s or 50’s.

    Laree Chatwin married John Blackmore at 16

    Nycia,(married Guy Blackmore), Lucinda, (married Zane Blackmore), and Zelpha (married Winston Blackmore)

    ALL OF THESE MEN ARE SONS OF MARVIN WYLER and all of these marriages are put together by Winston Blackmore!::

    Von Chatwin married a 15 year old Palmer girl (VERY RECENT)

    Stephen Chatwin married Elizabeth Palmer at 15

    David Chatwin married Guy Blackmore’s daughter at 15

    Troy Chatwin married Mac Blackmore’s daughter, Sarah, at 15

    Chris Chatwin married a Blackmore girl underage


    Written on 31 girls allegedly smuggled from Canada by FLDS :

    Someone needs to question Gail Gneckow with the FBI from Sandpoint, Idaho. Names of girls believed to be underage were sent to the FBI in November of 2000. I have several of those emails, the content of one;



    > [SHE IS NOT HAPPY!!!!!]
    > ugly
    > > and in 40’s} at 14 or 15
    > > STEED .

  359. Stamp, Seems impossible now but right after the YFZ Raunch Rescue, wasn’t Willie “The Thug” Jessop recorded at a microphone stating that he was not personally aware of any underaged marriages occuring in the FLDS Church community? Then he launched into accusations that there was a ‘Rush to Judgment’, anti-Mormon bias and ‘Fishing Expedition’ transpiring at the ranch that was baseless and without any merits.

  360. CAJim, I remember Thugly saying that.

  361. 3C, do you have any genealogy on the Chatwins?

  362. Court documents state the allegations stem from separate events between November 1990 and March 1998 in Utah County. There are no statutes of limitation in Utah that prevent prosecutors from filing such sex crime charges.

    The above is from the sexual abuse of the girls in 5 Browns by their father. Why was it that Elissa had a statute of limitations on her case?

  363. PT – yes, I might be able to help – who?

  364. PT, the Brown sisters only recently brought charges against their father, who immediately pled guilty and didn’t prolong the court case.

    I think the statute of limitations Elissa experienced dealt with the time frame when the charges were brought vs when the assault report was made. I think that law was changed a few years ago to extend that statute of limitations.

    The Brown father wasn’t charged with rape; he was charged with sexual assault of 3 of his daughters. Allen Steed was charged with rape of Elissa Wall. Would this make any difference? I don’t know the laws well enough.

    Maybe the fact that the 3 Brown sisters live in Utah County, home of BYU, matters. Utah County has MUCH more stature in the State of Utah than Washington County.

    Or, we could run with the theory that prominent victims of child sexual abuse (Julliard graduates who tour the country playing pianos) are treated differently than the little girls from Short Creek.

    It’s not a stretch because it seems to be too true at times that the children from Short Creek are treated as lesser citizens than other Utahns.

    But, it is still my guess that it involved the time frame of Elissa’s rape, when it was reported to LE and when Allen was charged. Many years passed between these incidences and it happened while the old law was in force.

  365. This list needs some help…I think someone should check facts before putting out lists…just saying!

  366. PT – I have Maretta Chatwin and Alfonso Laker Cook – parents of Foneta Marie 1940/2009. Promise to use your powers for good?

  367. Anonymous April 2, 2011 at 10:27 PM, which list are you stressing over?

    I can possiby help

  368. Here’s another LDS sermon on subject of women, compare it to the attitude towards women found in FLDS.

    After seeing this sermon, compare with the statements of Warren Jeffs and the FLDS leadership found through out this blog.

  369. My bad, didn’t correctly copy above link, lets try again:

    Compare this with Jeffs dictations.

  370. anon

    “I think someone should check facts when putting out lists ”


    Consider it a starting point for the FBI to start checking facts. If you read it, you would see they were notified over ten years ago of the chlld sex slave trade.

    And just now Canada has a list of 31 Child sex slaves that is putting a stop to the FLDS mojo in the latest case up there.

    Where was the FBI?

  371. 3C, I was thinking more of those in the list posted above. Even knowing which parents they belong to would help.

    Laree Chatwin
    Nycia Chatwin
    Lucinda Chatwin
    Von Chatwin
    Stephen Chatwin
    David Chatwin
    Troy Chatwin
    Chris Chatwin

  372. Consider it a starting point for the FBI to start checking facts. If you read it, you would see they were notified over ten years ago of the chlld sex slave trade.
    And just now Canada has a list of 31 Child sex slaves that is putting a stop to the FLDS mojo in the latest case up there.
    Where was the FBI?
    Stamp said this on April 3, 2011 at 7:42 AM

    I can answer part of your question Stamp, the FBI didn’t have access to any documentation of the age of the girls and/or date of marriages. If they did then over half of the list would be discredited from the get go.

    The Canadians have always had the birth records of their citizens as they are required to file them. Not so in Utah apparently. What the Canadians needed were the dictations and marriage records provided by Ranger Nick. They got the information they needed and are now in a position to file charges.

  373. It still begs the question, if the feds can put Tony Alamo up for 150 years, why they let this RICO group operate unfettered.

    Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization

  374. Don’t know the answer to that one Stamp.

  375. It still begs the question, if the feds can put Tony Alamo up for 150 years, why they let this RICO group operate unfettered.

    Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization

    Stamp said this on April 3, 2011 at 8:22 AM

    IMO the answer to your question lays in Washington, D.C. Specifically at the door of the White House, why has there been action on this issue, the President & First Lady state they support human rights & women’s rights.

    Perhaps the best way is to send informative and respectful e-mails to President Obama & the First Lady pointing out the human rights violations, human trafficking of groups like the FLDS, sometimes it’s the boss that’s the last one to know, so an e-mail the the Whitehouse addressed to both President Obama and the First Lady are in order.

    Check the box contact me at above link, perhaps you will get a response.

  376. Above should read “why has there been no action.” Wish there was an edit button.

  377. PT – sorry, I don’t have any more Chatwins but I’ll check.

  378. I just wish they could go back and fix this mess back when they had other chances.

    But there is that saying:

    “Its never too late to start”

  379. Maybe the FBI needs get a groove on with a 12 step program

  380. I think that the escalation of these fundamentalist LDS practices will need, ultimately, to a Intra-state task force or other Federal involvement. The situation today is an agreement to try to deal with the crime wave at the individual State level but if this was likely to be successful both Utah and Arizona would have stopped the organized series of felonies. Now that Canada has been awoken publically, with the reference case on polygamy and the YFZ Ranch evidence, the entire matter has escalated to our International Border and a Federal response is the only possible outcome. Senator Harry Reid’s hearings and unenacted bill has sat for two years in the U.S. Senate while Utah, Arizona and Texas have individually taken legal actions that haven’t gotten down to the root causations but only redressed individual FLDS members actions, this is insufficient to fully rectify this sects covert operations and defiant resolve. The Canadian referenece case ruling and arrests that may result should diaplay the criminal activities are beyond individual and uncoordinated statewide enforcement(s) in the United States.

  381. I bet BC is embarrassed they even stepped into this adventure, its been exposing their failure to protect children going back decades..

    No way are they going to let that continue!

  382. Agree with a petition/letter writing campaign to the White House/FBI

  383. also suggest sending a draft of the letter / petition to your state senators and representatives, in addition to the White House and the FBI

  384. Still waiting to hear what entertainment the most recent 600-mailing threatened, hahahaha!

  385. My email is sent A Texan. How about the rest of y’all?

  386. GrannyT my guess is the second 600 packets probably got sacked and then trucked to the U.S. Postal General for inspection and Federal charges will be brought. The last warning will prove to be the one-and-only. I think they should revoke some of Warren’s prison privelege’s for his last stunt, like restrict his phone minutes.

  387. Why would they do that CAJim? The prison is raking in the money for his phone calls. They’ve made over $8000 so far on just selling him phone cards alone. They will also get a percentage of the amount the phone company is charging for those collect calls.

    They’d be cutting their own throat to restrict his phone time.

  388. I say let him continue to call – as they record him, of course. Adds to the evidence.

  389. I agree BiB, a reverse Bleeding the Beast

  390. I know, teehee, ain’t it amusing about the phone call economics for a tiny little jail.

  391. I wonder, if like Willie the Thug, Warren thinks that means they owe him something, since Willie thought paying taxes in Schleicher County bought FLDS the politicians like back where they’re from.

  392. Nice tour of Colorado City in a three part video

  393. Loved the tour and running commentary on the youtube video of CC!!Both entertaining and enlightening.

  394. It was entertaining. I loved it when he was walking around his parents yard and keep looking over at them looking out the window.

  395. First thing you see is the windsock off to the right, from the airport.

  396. Poor guy, his own family treating him like dudu

  397. I too enjoyed the tour…how sad that this young man’s family would not even come out and talk to him….

  398. Regarding making money on Warren’s phone calls. If they have to pay someone to monitor the calls then it will cost more than they get from him. I can’t see them letting a prisioner make calls without a monitor.

  399. They do very much like in Mexico, don’t finish homes’ exteriors, don’t have to pay higher real estate taxes.

  400. Warren’s phone calls are being recorded – not very expensive Watergirl.

  401. yes…I saw that granny–but, looks very tacky….

  402. The Washington Times weighs in on the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy

  403. Video guy might have had some closure with his family if he’d have put down the camera for a minute. Great tour though.

  404. 3C maybeso but it’s the family who is mistreating him.

  405. No excuse for that.

  406. Anon 03/31/2011 11:28pm:

    Regarding Lee’s Ferry and the Lonely Dell:

    I think that the ranch and ferry focus more on our Johnson family than the Lee family simply because the Johnsons were there for much longer, from about 1878 until the early 1930s. John D. Lee was there from about 1871, and after his legal troubles his wife Emma operated it mostly alone until the Johnsons came. Only one Lee wife was there and only two Lee children were born there on the Lonely Dell. From Lee’s Ferry and the Lonely Dell, my Johnsons moved to Short Creek and my Spencers/Allreds removed to Chihuahua, Mexico near the LeBaron colony where my Spencer/Allreds married into the LeBaron family as well as into the families of the other mormon Mexican colonies. Some later returned to Short Creek.

    There is a great (if encyclopedic at about 600 pages) book written on the Lee’s Ferry area – “Lee’s Ferry” by P.T. Rielly. It’s a great book.

    Regarding the Johnson Canyons: I remember having this same dilemma on the different Johnson Canyons a while back. I will go back through my materials and try to come up with an answer for you.

    Last year I visited the Mountain Meadows Massacre site – it was very moving. I have not yet read Lee’s memoirs, but it’s on my list.

    More info to follow, how soon is your planned visit to the Johnson Canyon?

  407. Right you are, Granny.

  408. Back on Lee’s Ferry – interestingly, lead scroll purportedly authored by John D. Lee (a suspected Mark Hofmann forgery) turned up in 2002 in the old Lee’s Ferry Fort building next to the river.

    Okay, back to the topics at hand. However, I am going to have to do some of my actual work as well or my clients will fire me. Darn!

  409. I found the tour interesting but very sad. Totally cannot appreciate not finishing houses and other ways of avoiding taxes.

  410. I remember when he was a kid and tagged along behind his dad. They were so loving and proud of one another. His parents were not able to have children for a long time. He was certainly a blessing when he arrived. I’m sorry to see he’s become so crude and disrespectful.

    Btw, I think you’re right about the camera, 3-c.

  411. Unfinished houses are not really about not paying taxes although that does seem to be a side effect. We do owe taxes on each house. It is more a matter of putting available moneys inside to make it more livable. Most of them are started from scratch and are finished along the way. Often additions are begun before the original is finished so the outside is put on hold again.

  412. Warren’s phone calls are being recorded – not very expensive Watergirl.
    Anonymous said this on April 4, 2011 at 9:58 AM

    yes, I am sure they are recorded — what would be the point of recording them but, to be listened to later? You would have to pay someone to listen to them.

  413. Here’s a video from a San Angelo TV station showing Wendell Neilson, Willie the Thug & Merril the wife beater in court last week getting there trial dates set.

    Neilson has trial date of Aug 22 with a pre-trial set for June 6, and Merril Jessop pretrial set for April 14, and trial on May 2.

    Wouldn’t be surprised to see the defense of my client is old, have mercy on him, and he was a victim of Warren who manipulated them in to committing crimes. Ole willie the thug was with them, so all these ex-ed FLDS members seem to be hanging together.

  414. I don’t think that will be the defense, if they are still in they won’t put up a defense and if they are truly out, they will work a plea deal to testify against Warren.

  415. PT – found my Chatwins under another surname:

    According to my records: Von, Steven, Troy, David, and Chris Chatwin are the sons of Marvin Wyler. Marvin Wyler is the son of William Edward Chatwin (1873-1946) and Dorothy Mae Wyler (1926-1988). He changed his surname to Wyler as he was raised by a maternal great uncle Henry Wyler. Some of his children are surnamed Wyler and some are surnamed Chatwin.

    Zelpha and Marsha Chatwin are also his daughters, married to Winston Blackmore.

    Laree, Nycia, and Lucinda I are not in my records.

  416. watergirl, you could listen to them later if there was some reasonable suspicion.

  417. Thanks 3C. Plygsnsure can make genealogy a challenge.

  418. Henry’s wife was also the daughter of William Edward Chatwin.

  419. –a half-sister to all three children.

  420. I don’t think that will be the defense, if they are still in they won’t put up a defense and if they are truly out, they will work a plea deal to testify against Warren.

    Proud Texan said this on April 4, 2011 at 1:55 PM

    You might be right, the trials will show the truth as too if they are in or out, if they are out, and it’s a plea bargain, it could really get bad for Warren Jeffs and his followers as ole Willie the Thug knows where the bodies are buried and who’s closets have skeletons.

  421. Third Cousin said:

    Back on Lee’s Ferry – interestingly, lead scroll purportedly authored by John D. Lee (a suspected Mark Hofmann forgery) turned up in 2002 in the old Lee’s Ferry Fort building next to the river.

    I’ve never heard of that Lee scroll. Probably was a Hoffman forgery; he was a very busy boy!

    My trip to Johnson Canyon is planned for the end of April. I just hope its the Johnson Canyon I want to visit.

    Thanks in advance for your help eliminating my confusion about Johnson Canyon.

  422. Which wife of Marvin’s do the boys and Zelpha go with?

  423. Who is Mark Hoffman and why is he forging documents ? What was in the “lead scroll”?

  424. Never heard of him BiB. What is the context?

  425. Oh, BiB, it’s a long, strange story. Maybe you should go to the public library and check out a book on him. “The Salamander Letter” is a good one. I think another one is called “The Mormon Murders”.

    Basically, Mark Hoffman forged a bunch of old Mormon documents to make a lot if money and to make the big guys running the church look bad. This was in the late 70’s/early 80’s.

    They bought up a bunch of embarrassing forged documents and tucked them away in the church’s archives in SLC.

    Mark murdered 2 innocent people to take the heat off of him when things started going south. Then he blew himself up in his own car with a homemade bomb so the police would think he was also a victim instead of the murderer.

    Just more really strange Mormon stuff that goes on in Utah.

    It’s a fascinating story. I highly recommend it.

    Here is the Wiki on him –

  426. Oh you guys! You gotta read about Mark Hofmann and his forgeries of historical documents that he woud “find” and then quietly sell to the LDS church and others for muchas bucks.

    Google Mark Hofmann and mormon, and it will rock your world. The investigative book on it is called “the Salamander Murders.” Hofmann murdered two people in SLC by bombing them and then accidentally bombed himself. He’s doing life.

  427. BTW, Mark Hoffman is in the Utah State Prison in Draper sharing a cell with Ron Lafferty – one of the brothers who murdered his sister-in-law and her baby because she wouldn’t let their other brother practice polygamy. The brothers are prominent in Jon Krakauer’s book “Under the Banner of Heaven.”

    You can’t make this stuff up.
    Only in Utah!

  428. PT – I think Zelpha and Marsha are daughters of Esther Young, but I don’t know about the boys. I’ll do some checking.

  429. Mark Hofmann and I are distantly related on his mother’s side through the Call and Sears family lines. Yes, yet another of my relatives in the slammer.

  430. I remeber very well when Mark Hoffman was “finding” and selling documents. Also remember the great shock when it turned out that the documents were forgeries and that Mark H had killed people and had injured himself when a bomb apparently went off in his car prematurely.

    The most well known of the forgeries was the white salamander letter. While Mark did negotiate with the LDS church leaders, a deal for the LDS church to purchase the letter never happened.

  431. I read that book years ago and found it quite fascinating. I didn’t know he was sharing a cell with Lafferty! What things they must have had, over these long years, to discuss! If memory serves, some of the papers/documents are still locked away in SLC, the church not wanting to admit they were completely duped. I may need to check the book out again and reread it, to refresh my memory.

  432. Are you guys talking about the confession of John D. Lee?

  433. Never read the book, but did follow the story as it unfolded in the newspapers. It proved that the LDS leaders are not infailable and that they were duped as were many other people.

  434. This weeks ‘’ will have John Llewellyn, expolygomist and author, discussing the evidence and likely findings by the BC Supreme Court Chief Justice Robert Bauman. Bill Medvecky is so irate about the 31 Canadian ‘Child Brides’ sex trafficking he has attacked Texas Ranger Nick Hanna on his blogsite ‘freethefldschildren’. I know the misnomer blogsite name of all time but you have to remember he’s a convicted felon.

  435. No Walton, we’re talking about the Mark Hoffman forgeries of historical Mormon documents back in the early 80’s.

  436. @ chemist – even the poor guy’s wife was blindsided.

    @ walton – I think we’re talking about the book “Salamander: The Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders” by Linda Sillitoe and Allen Roberts.

  437. Yes, we are talking about Mark Hofman. There have been several books written about him, but the best known is probably:

    Linda Sillitoe and Allen Roberts, authors of “Salamander: The Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders as mentioned by Third Cousin.

  438. I have 4 books about Mark Hofmann (and Third Cousin has been spelling his name right – I had it wrong).

    One book is “The Mormon Murders” by Steven Naifeh and Gregory White Smith.

    Another is “A Gathering of Saints” by Robert Lindsey.

    Then the “Salamander” book mentioned above.

    Gary Sheets wrote his own book about the murders in 2003 (his wife Kathy was one of Mark’s victims) called Trial(s).

    I liked the “Salamander” book the best of all of them, but whatever book your local library has will tell you the awful story.

    It is a must-read for those who aren’t familiar with the guy.

  439. BM, the wingnut, is just PO’d he didn’t get one or two for himself!

  440. I recall reading that Mark Hofmann (correct this time?) was mad at the LDS church because one of his ancestors had been exed because of the ancestor’s practice of polygamy. That is why many of his forgeries cast the LDS church and it earlier leaders in a bad light. Probably won’t take the time to research it now. It is based on my memory and may be a wrong memory.

  441. WRT the rehabilitation of Mark Hoffman, it doesn’t seem to be in his best interest to have him share a cell with one of the Lafferty brothers. (This assumes that rehabilitation is possible)

  442. Well, what do we have here?

    Colorado City, Arizona, USA.

  443. What a Bro

  444. Dang, I can see why Warren exed brother Leroy. Leroy’s much cuter than Warren and doesn’t talk in that dang monotone voice.

    As for Dan Barlow, all I can say is bulls**t!!!

  445. Yes, chemist, Hofmann’s maternal grandmother grew up in hiding and he had a bone to pick because he was bitter about it. The investigators felt this was a partial driving motive.

  446. I agree, PT. He’s very clear that people who are not in the FLDS need to leave town and live in another town. Not exactly an American value there. Then he says that they don’t have drug problems because they are so family oriented. That’s because if any of their family is a problem, they drive them away…maybe other communities should solve their drug problem by driving it out of town? How family oriented!

  447. PT,

    Dan is not that far off–you have to remember that video is probably 16 years ago or so (the office looks like the old city hall). This community used to be very much like small town America when LeRoy Johnson and the first of Rulon Jeffs leadership.

    I had Dan Barlow as a teacher in Priesthood classes, grew up with several of his sons, worked with other sons etc. He was very much about building up the community and making your choice. While not perfect, I think this town would be a lot better of if men like Dan B. were in charge instead of the current Jeffs.

  448. What are Priesthood classes ? What is taught in these classes ?

  449. Well, Dan Barlow sure had on his “keep sweet” soft-spoken sing-song “lying for the Lord” demeanor in this interview!

  450. Are you sure you want to know the answer to that BiB? I’m sure it involves perfect obedience to the profit. I’d flunk out really quick.

  451. Heard through the grapevine that Lyle has been being joined on the podium by Vaughn Taylor, John Wayman and 2 of Dan Barlow’s sons, Ray and Leon. Also, it was announced that William E. Jessop is the most wicked man alive.

    Dang, that’s the status I was going for.

    I agree with anon@9:47, it might be a better place if the Barlows were in charge instead of the Jeffs. I don’t think it could be much worse.

  452. Is LeRoy Jeffs looking down and counting the number of trustees on his fingers from 1:15 to 1:24 in this video?

  453. Oh man, who is Vaughn Taylor?

  454. Not exactly sure who he is 3C. He just suddenly appeared. He’s married to one of Wendell’s daughters and one of Warren’s nieces through his brother Hyrum. Other than that, not much.

    As for Leroy using his fingers, I thought the same thing.

  455. PT, I’m sure that there is more to the Priesthood classes curriculum than “keeping sweet” and yes, I would like to know the curricular content

  456. I thought keeping sweet covered it all.


    Try this.


  459. Thanks PT – with a database of over 12K family members (my side only, not husband) I don’t often run into one I don’t know. I can be an honest resource where I am able. I would love to be of assistance in the effort for justice, even if that means different things for all of us different people. I know for sure for me it means deep respect for ancestors but no tolerance for child or spousal abuse.

  460. Thanks PT – appreciate your links

  461. BIB:

    This link shows the manual that is used for the LDS adult priesthood classes for 2011. I have no idea what the FLDS priesthood classes study.

  462. Warren most evil, now Jessop most evil,

    HEY! What about Charlie Sheen!

  463. Thanks Chemist !!!

  464. They are still trying to convert Charlie.

  465. This link shows the manual that is used for the LDS adult priesthood classes for 2011. I have no idea what the FLDS priesthood classes study.

    “Don’t think about girls. Have nothing to do with them. Immorality requires blood atonement.” That’s it, from 1000 different angles until a person gets sick of it.

  466. That link shows at least a little variety other than “if you do adultery, you must be blood atoned”.

  467. Question: Is Leroy Steed Jeffs in or out of Warren’s group now? That testimony was confusing.

  468. So what is the reason that William Jessop is evil? For trying to save the FLDS from the clutches of Warren, who is midway through destroying it?

    Should Jessop go away so Warren can finish the job?

  469. there are 7 deadly sins or cardinal virtues (depending on whether you are a glass half empty or half full kind of person). Why all the focus on only one? Big Clue: control.

  470. I think he was in at the time of the testimony that was taped, then out and his wives and family were reassigned. Now he’s back in. He can thank Allen Keate for taking one for him since the victim Allen went to jail over was married to Leroy before Allen.

  471. Warren thinks so Chaps.

  472. Proud Texan, thanks for your reply. I was confused, thinking that youtube interview above was new. So he is still in prison. Kind of sad because he seems more intelligent, sounds, looks and speaks like more of a leader than the rest of them.

  473. I think he is back in the Crick. Maybe one of our Creeker friends can say for sure.

  474. The classes that Dan taught were the classes for the Aaronic Priesthood, specifically the Teachers. It was not the curriculum that the Alta Academy came up with for Priesthood history.

    The majority of the classes dealt with how to honor your parents and set an example of good living for those around you. Teachers were taught that they should teach, and we went of the basics of the gospel—the Ten Commandments, Articles of Faith, etc. When I went through his class, the Keep Sweet slogan was just starting in the community, but not in the class. The text was mostly the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

    This class was before everything went way radical.

    For those wondering why William E. Jessop is the wickedest man alive–there are two sins you can’t repent of: murder and betraying the brethren and turning traitor. He is considered a traitor now. Funny, but the same things were said about me when I stood up to the leadership that is currently running things.

    About the men on the stand: Not sure who the Leon is, don’t even know if Dan has a son named Leon. Dan’s son Ray is now on the stand, and Alvin Barlow’s son John M. Barlow is also on the stand. Both are counselors to Lyle. Vaughn Taylor is a church Patriarch and has been on the stand since they started meetings up again in 2009. He works for NewEra and is John Wayman’s right-hand man.

  475. LeRoy Jeffs is back, but lives alone.

  476. it’s not hard to be saner than Warren. I thought Leroy sounded mousey and that he was visibly nervous about testifying.

  477. Anonymous 11:37
    Do you know whether Allen Steed is back in?

  478. I’d be surprised if any FLDS was NOT nervous about testifying.

  479. Allen Steed as sin the guy who raped Elissa?

  480. For those wondering why William E. Jessop is the wickedest man alive–there are two sins you can’t repent of: murder and betraying the brethren and turning traitor. He is considered a traitor now.
    Do people not know there can only be one worst? Why was I the worst apostate ever, my brother the worst apostate ever, you the worst apostate ever, I.W. the worst apostate ever, and now William the worst apostate ever?

  481. No, Allen Woodruff Steed… the senior Allen.

  482. Me, I’m just an evil gentile.

  483. Haven’t heard anything about him one way or another Anonldes.

  484. An accountant for the FLDS should be especially nervous about testifying, I would think.

  485. and warren said HE was the most wicked man in this dispensation, so I guess he’s got us all beat.

  486. Betty

    That is one prophesy Warren had right!


  487. I am a member of the great and abominable church so maybe I and the other 13-14 million LDS people are the worst apostates ever.


  488. LOL Chemist! Gives those FLDS folks lots to be uptite about!

  489. Maybe I am the WORST and the OLDEST of the Anonymouses….

  490. Oh come on you guys… I don’t know how to prove it, but I bet *I* am the WORST! 😀

  491. RiH, are you around? What does “Set for Submission on Oral Arguments” mean at the Court of Appeals?

  492. I like all you apostates, especially the WORST ones.

  493. this just in from Canada –

  494. Guess we know now what was discussed on Sunday at the meeting:

  495. One is the worst if one turns away from the priesthood and remains on UEP property.

  496. I remember those votes. They are the ones where you wondered if you voted “no” whether or not you would make it out unscathed.

  497. Anybody want to confirm whether there really were 4 thousand there last Sunday?

  498. Interesting position and criticism from the Bountiful Teachers about missed curriculum, in a fully funded public school, BESS which is the FLDS Church in Creston Valley, Canada. Required courses on critical thinking from 6th Grade onward are not taught not the full study of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, ironic in that the present polygamy reference case was brought as a test to said Charter. No sex education is taught yet all of these ciurses are funded and paid for by the Educational Province. Seems like this would trigger somee form of fines, sanctions and accredidation restriction(s).

  499. does not the fact that warren confessed to adultry and fornication with a sister and a daughter, thus he holds no priesthood himself according to church bylaws, and also that the recording of that confession has been withheld and censored from those 4000 people, make that knudsen affidavit moot?

  500. Send in the clowns!

  501. I think that recording will see the light in the courtroom. Knudson is backing a dead horse. Willie picked the right guy for the takeover.

  502. It’s actually hard for me to imagine on what grounds they would be able to bring that recording in as 404(b) evidence.

  503. The Washington Post is running the story… complementary to the above link to Boyd Knudson’s affidavit.

  504. Can anyone provide an accurate estimate of the number of active FLDS adults who are eligible to vote in Colorado City to allow us to determine if 4000 voting members represents a majority ? Also, do the bylaws allow for a voice vote or show of hands in a public assembly – no secret ballot required ?

  505. This just in from Canada, by Daphne Bramham

  506. By laws? In one man rule?

  507. Remember that anyone 8 and older can vote according to priesthood rules.

  508. What does 404(b) have to do with anything?

  509. PT – I assumed you meant the Jeffs recording might be admitted in court as to prior bad acts. Sorry.

  510. Knudson makes reference in his affidavit to “rules” and “laws” of the church, so I would imagine that there are some bylaws written somewhere which might govern voting processes. Can a current or past member comment ?

  511. You can put anything in prior bad acts, but I was referring to it in regards to control of the church between Jessop and Jeffs. That tape is pretty convincingly giving the keys to the kingdom to Jessop.

    Those bad acts of Warren’s will be long, long, long. I’m guesing 30 pages minimum.

  512. BiB – rules, laws, surely you jest. This is Warren, make it up as I go, Jeffs you’re talking about. He’ll tell the people it was a revelation from God and they need to stand up and affirm it. They are so controlled by him it is unbelievable.

  513. Proud Texan is right and a non pegged it saying if they ever did require common assent you’d wonder “whether or not you would make it out unscathed.”

    No church laws, bylaws, votes or choices, just revelations delivered by one man. There is no such thing as ‘voting’ for anything regarding religious matters. Father knows best. Lies and more lies. Smile and say yes or you’re banned and damned.

  514. I’m far from an attorney, but it would be nice if that recording ended up even more public!!!

  515. Do the 4000 voters who appeared at the church meeting represent a majority of the eligible voters in the community ?

  516. Eligible, as in adult US citizens, mmm?

  517. Eh?

    “The Utah Attorney General’s Office has agreed to a plan that could temporarily hand back control of a property trust to a polygamous sect, according to documents filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court.”

  518. So the filing for FLDS Corporation control by William E. Jessop now triggers a 30 day hold to allow both sides to work out clear church leadership. This then clouds who is going to receive control of the UEP Trust ordered by the Federal District Court Judge Dee Beeson. Also, the Utah AG has insisted that Warren S. Jeffs can not be involved with oversight of the UEP Trust under any hand-over scenario or circumstance. If no 30 day agreement is made then a legal proceeding will ensue and the UEP Trust will continue in limbo.

    I still feel that the recent ‘handling’ of dozens of FLDS Church priesthood men is likely tied to this looming FLDS Corporate President dispute. Short Creek stability and security seems to be deteriorating and serious.

  519. Please continue on General Discussion #52

    Thanks – Admin

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