General Discussion #50

Continued from General Discussion #49


~ by FLDS TEXAS on March 14, 2011.

534 Responses to “General Discussion #50”

  1. Brand new day, brand new string

  2. Ahh… the big five-oh Discussion!

    Catching up here after not paying too much attention to all things FLDS for the last couple of days.

    I wonder if insiders are feeling pretty pumped about the devastation in Japan right now and if or how Warren is spinning it to his advantage.

  3. Yeah, ET, spin would definitely be involved in making something half a world away and in a different government and culture all about them. But I’m curious, also.

  4. I have to go back a little bit…

    GrannyToad, on the previous thread, I posted a link to a Trib story quoting a part of it:

    “…it’s important to treat them as individuals who don’t need to be ‘rescued.'”

    …to which you responded:
    “What would that mean, don’t NEED to be RESCUED? Sounds like so much c-a-r-p to me.”

    Sooo… I started to respond, but on second thought, I want to hear your thoughts about that. Could you say some more about what you meant?

  5. Why is this thread only available if I click on someone’s recent comments? Is this affecting others, or is it just my computer?

  6. It’s out of order, I noticed. It is not at the top, but if I had scrolled down a little I would have found it.

  7. Yes cement…I had to same problem…it’s way out of order…

  8. OOPS…I meant–I had the same problem….

  9. ? to ET. Someone goes for help but it’s important NOT to treat the person as in need of rescue (help) ? What am I misunderstanding? That’s why I thought it was carp from among their own so nobody escapes their cult grasp.

  10. Or that’s what I recall without a re-read. I’ve workmen back in the house today.

  11. Pitch hitting as admin, sorry. I think I’ve fixed it by making it “sticky”.

  12. I think you mean pinch hitting.

  13. Before I chose to leave, I encountered friends of friends who wanted to “rescue me.” I told them “no thanks.” I wasn’t ready to take that step yet. Besides, we are not as inept as GT and many others would have us believe.

  14. The following is not directed at YOU, Granny. I now see where you’re coming from; thank you. It was your original response that brought up a bunch of “stuff” for me, so I guess I’ll get it off my chest.

    sitting on soapbox

    The ‘you’s’ here are strictly generic and my issue is probably one of simple semantics: differentiating between HELP and RESCUE.

    I think I understand what Draper says in that article. She’s absolutely right… polygamists are hardly inclined to come to the government or any outside help organization. And why is that?

    Trust issues are huge. Remember what I will never stop saying: true change comes from within. And that means both within the group as a group, and per individual. If someone comes out of there seeking HELP, that’s a major change from within the individual; they are doing one of the most powerful (and scary) things imaginable as an isolated member of a cult. And they are feeling massive negative pressure.

    In the first place, they certainly don’t want to be treated like a victim who NEEDS to be rescued. The outside world believes them to be victims and almost invariably identifies them as such. But nobody (who isn’t pathological) WANTS to be a victim – an object of pity and weakness or to be treated like “Oh you poor thing!” – which only makes them feel as powerless as their perpetrators made them feel. Don’t forget, THEY made a powerful choice to ask for HELP. And what I’m saying is, that’s not the same as asking to be RESCUED.

    What they need is:
    _| personal empowerment,
    _| to be heard un-judgmentally,
    _| to be treated as individuals capable of autonomy and responsibility,
    _| to stop feeling vulnerable
    _| to understand the options that can empower them
    _| to know and be assured they have choices, … *(more about choice below)
    _| to get the kind of advice that will help them understand how they are going to survive without the support system they just left – probably the only one they’ve ever known.

    You can knock that support system (to their minds it’s family) all you want but you have to stop thinking about YOUR reality and get a handle on THEIR reality and THEIR experience. They don’t need to hear you bad-mouth their “people” which only puts them on the defensive or shuts them down. They may arrive at that sense somewhere waaay down the road to independence, but on their own. That mentality appeals more to your sense of outrage, not theirs. They need to know how they are going to survive — and if they have left children behind, how they can get them out and take care of them successfully and hopefully legally.

    Under no circumstances should they feel pitied as a victim. An appropriate ‘victim’ that needs to be ‘rescued’ is one caught in a disaster like what’s going on in Japan right now. I hardly know what to say, if the distinctions escape you.

    And they are not survivors either… not yet. To them, survivors are the perpetrators who cost them their freedoms. A survivor feels strong, triumphant, proud. They are not there yet and don’t need to be “like” their perps.

    * Just to note: learning how to make choices is probably one of the longest-lasting and hardest tasks to develop once freedom and empowerment is in hand. Another issue is accepting you will never be ‘normal’ in the usual sense of the word. Your birth, indoctrination and living circumstance preclude ‘normalcy’ and what has to be learned is to value it and embrace your uniqueness. The hard part is transitioning from an ultra-protective environment to one where YOU have to make your own choices and take responsibility for both the good or bad consequences that follow those choices – to figure out how to make the choices that result in good consequences. It is paramount to successful survival.

    fall off soapbox and breathe, breathe, breathe

  15. Feel free to stand on the soapbox ET, I like it !

  16. This just in from Philadelphia, via Creeping Sharia blog regarding an Islamic polygamist in Pennsylvania –

    Philadelphia : “Faithful Muslim” gets 8 years for sex with underage girls

    A 20-year-old Philadelphia woman told a federal courtroom yesterday that she married Omar Rashaad Bey in an Islamic ceremony in Egypt when she was 14.

    Four years later, she ended the marriage after learning that Bey was sleeping with her older sister.

    Bey, 33, of 20th Street near Emily, was sentenced yesterday to eight years in jail by U.S. District Judge Jan DuBois for having sex with three underage girls – all of whom were under 16 at the time – in Egypt between 2004 and 2007. Bey pleaded guilty in September.

    He must also serve 10 years of supervised release and register as a sex offender.

    DuBois called the crimes “heinous” and said a guideline-range sentence was needed to punish Bey and protect the public from “sexual exploitation of children.”

    DuBois then revoked Bey’s bail and ordered him taken into custody. He said Bey had failed to show that he was not a flight risk.

    Assistant U.S. Attorney Josh Davison argued that Bey was a “predator.”

    Davison said in court papers that Bey had taken advantage of one of his victims – when she was 15 and “living a bare-subsistence life” in Egypt – by offering her food and money in exchange for sex.

    Two of the illicit relationships, during which Bey fathered two children who were born when the victims were just 15, occurred after what authorities said were Islamic marriages.

    “He knows these were not true marriages,” Davison said. “They were a means for him to have sexual relationships” with underage girls.

    Before sentencing, Bey apologized to the victims but said that he was “a wholehearted and faithful Muslim” and that none of the illicit relationships had been carried out without the consent of the victims’ parents.

    He insisted that he was not a predator or a pedophile and that his children – 12 borne by eight women – knew him to be a “loving father.”

    About 40 to 50 friends, family and others came to court yesterday to support him.

    Defense attorney Fortunato Perri Jr. said Bey was not a sex tourist or a predator but someone who was a “good father” who had made “errors in judgment” by “following his faith to his detriment.”

    But the 20-year-old Philadelphia woman with whom Bey has a 5-year-old son and 2-year-old daughter called him “very sneaky, manipulative and conniving,” adding: “He’s not a good father at all.” (Bey is under a court order to provide $180 a month in child support to the woman.)

    Bey’s “marriages” may not have been true love and underage marriages may not be permitted in the U.S., but is the judge correct to state these were not “true marriages” in Islam?

  17. Great soapbox moment E, it is something I know I need to hear over and over. I want to “rescue” people when in reality all I need to do is “help” them get to where they want to be.

  18. Plig Kid would get very angry about the label victim; To say someone is a victim implies that you are not and that there is a therefor some difference in the wholeness and equality of the two individuals. It detracts from a sense of self-worth.

    My husband had a very good friend that I could not end up being so close to because in the relationship she always had to hear about my troubles and solve them for me, but she never exhibited any of her vulnerabilities, so in the end it was not a reciprocal relationship and I resented her need to find and solve problems about me.

  19. E.T., Your advice is very similar to advice given to those working with domestic abuse situations Some organizations won’t help them at all until they are ready to leave and cut off contact with the abusers. I understand that approach – it is too dangerous to others in and around the shelter if the woman contacts her abuser and tells him where she is. But on the other hand, those who need someone to talk to, to sort out their options fall through the cracks.

    I think people who have been raped and/or physically beaten are also victims. I’m not sure I understand the objection to that term in those conditions, but then again, labels don’t really solve problems and if it offends, then avoid it. I don’t think anyone should assume that any individual has been victimized in that way. Everyone has their own story and you should let them tell it.

  20. HHG, yeah, no human enjoys being someone else’s project, especially not a family member or friend. I have a friend in the health profession – she’s a technical writer on diabetes – and every now and then she goes on some campaign to get me to be all worried about some new study or whatever. It’s very annoying, especially since I don’t have diabetes and my blood sugars are normal.

  21. Extremely good points, hhg!

    I could have gone on and on with my little diatribe and included similar issues.

    I don’t know what PligKid has had to say about anything, but the point is well taken about the role of “savior” seeking a superiority shot in the arm by feeding off others’ inferiority – i.e., troubles. For me, that’s a strong signal of insecurity – not superiority. I’ve met many such personalities.

    And I agree with you about exhibiting one’s vulnerabilities in a friendship. If there’s no reciprocity, it’s a big red flag that tells me to say, “Bye! Have a good life!” Same thing goes for the “saviors.”

  22. ET I understood better than you may believe, came from a separate place still much the same. In many ways still working on it, and I bet you understood that too. Thank you for showing the dichotomy in a better way.

  23. I’ve always been better at helping someone else help themselves. Should they want to.

    Some choose not to.

  24. Here’s interview with Elizabeth Smart after she won award for courage at UN.

    In the article she slams the fundamentalist mind set, by saying:

    “There was this man there [Smart’s abductor, Brian David Mitchell] telling me that I had been predestined to be here, that he was called a god, that it was right… I knew that it was wrong because I knew that a loving god would never do that to me.”

    Of course this is what Jeffs tells his followers, that he is predestined to be a “god”, that all the horrible things that he does are right because “god” wants it. Smart points out that Mitchell is this man, not a God or prophet, and we all know Warren Jeffs is just a man like Mitchell, not a prophet or anything else.

    Smarts statement that a loving God would never condone such acts speaks of the fundamental failure of Warren Jeffs and others like him IMO.

  25. A new book on the topic of modern polygamy in the US has been released –

  26. Here is the link to Lisa Ling’s first Oprah broadcast about the raid. She’s talking to Janet, Sally and Amy. I’m not sure who Amy is. Then “Sarah” gives a tour of her house. I’m not sure who this Sarah is either. Any ideas?

  27. Rachel talking at 2:24 is Warren Jeffs daughter. Monica is Warren’s wife and Merril’s daughter.

    Rachel claims to have 4 children in custody. This is a crock. Rachel’s kids were taken at all.

    At 8:34 Monica seems speechless about young girls being married to old men, then she changes the subject. Ummmmmmm Monica, your baby sister was married off to your husband at age 12.

  28. Should say Rachel’s kids weren’t taken at all.

  29. Let’s not forget Krazy Kathleen. Wonder who has the short straw and is in charge of Kathleen now that Merril is gone.

  30. @Granny, I know I’m too wordy for words… can’t seem to help myself, but I know you understood, and indeed, I understand the “in many ways still working on it.”

    @Betty, thanks for your inputs. I do realize there are other victims outside disaster situations. I just think that unless someone insists on identifying themselves as a victim (which, prejudiced or not, I consider at the pathological end of the spectrum) the best approach is to treat them as equals who need to be heard and given comfort and especially help. Sometimes people seek negative attention, just like neglected kids. But whether they are rape, physical, mental or religious abuse victims, they need to move past the victim mentality as quickly as possible. jmo

    Then there’s the whole issue of PTSD experienced by pretty much all of the above – whether they recognize it or not. I think one of the Canadian case affidavits also mentioned that all or nearly all polygamists leaving that culture experience it. I only recognized mine in hindsight.

  31. Anon thank for the reminder of that lying bunch. Still make my teeth itch they do.

  32. If you like I can re-post the Canadian Case affidavit regarding PTSD in ex fundamentalist Mormons…

  33. I think it’s a matter of semantics. If by ‘victim’, you mean someone broken and humiliated and powerless then of course that’s bad. If by ‘victim’ you mean that you acknowledge and empathize with the horrible crime that was done to them, then that can be very healing at least in the beginning of their process. I think it is important to be sensitive to what the person needs. Working with domestic abuse victims and rape victims as a volunteer, I have found very different reactions. Some people want to talk and for you to listen; some are overwhelmingly happy to find out that they are not the only ones this has happened to and they want to hear the stories of others; some want to pretend that nothing has happened and be distracted with light and pleasant activities or with work. It’s not right to tell someone else how to heal or how to grieve and there is no timetable as to what stage of healing that you should be in at any given time.

  34. s said at 1:13pm : Before sentencing, Bey apologized to the victims but said…that none of the illicit relationships had been carried out without the consent of the victims’ parents.

    How nice, more parent’s consenting to let their daughters be raped! This world is such a sick place. Knowing little to nothing about Islamic/Sharia law and life….are they bred for this life like the FLDS? Is this all they have to look forward to in life? Sex and babies while they are still babies, themselves??

  35. mc 1199,

    When Muhammad ibn Abdullah (aka the Prophet Muhammad) saw the seven year old Aisha, he recorded in his writings that he desired her. He became betrothed to her at age 7, and then married her at age 9. She was his favorite wife and the scribe of the Hadiths. That is why some Islamic countries have child brides, and there are Islamic child brides in the US as well.

  36. Posted on the International Polygyny Thread – a research study from Israel on Islamic polygyny

  37. I’ve always wondered why the dolt didn’t learn to read and write instead.

  38. Warren now, maybe he could have learned to play scottish ‘pipes. Or an oud.

  39. 2/25/11 submission of the AGBC requesting permission to admit new evidence regarding underage marriage of girls in FLDS for the Canadian Reference Case

  40. I watched the clips above and after being around this for some time, I think Rod Parker was right, there is no set age for marriage, it’s all at the whim of a mad man named Warren Jeffs.


    Guess they quite changing the names of the players. George’s priesthood name should be George Maurice Allred since his daddy Louis Jessop Barlow was exed by Warren early on in his exing career, but I guess since new-daddy Richard Jeffs Allred also got exed, he was able to go back to using his original name of Barlow.

    BTW, Kimball Barlow who is also mentioned is George’s 1st cousin. He’s the son of Dan Barlow, a previous mayor who was also exed by Warren.


    The writer is asking why Jeffs’ is able to continue his criminal activities from jail.

  43. Thanks anon for the post of Rod parker and the Fundy Few stumble through the Today show questions – even though the questions were weak, it was obvious they were lying through their teeth.

    The convictions proved it. Those ladies were a lyin fer the lord!

  44. Proud Texan

    Yeah, Warren sets the age a little lower for his wives than perhaps for the others.

    Maybe he was trying to balance the ages of his wives, considering he married most of his step mothers.

    IRT to the lie there is “no force” in marriage, we’ve heard of exings of entire families if the father refuses to allow his child to be molested.

    Its how they roll, they sieze your daughter, and if you dont turn her over to be molested you will be kicked out of your house, your church and your family.

  45. It seems to me from the readings on Islamic polygamy today, that polygamy in Islam is a way for a men to get a divorce. There is such a negative connotation to divorce, and even men are forced into arranged marriages that may not be compatible. But somehow the culture allows the man an escape, while allowing the first wife to be abandoned or almost a widow. And I think this is historically true also. I have studied the social life of villages in Sicily after the Christian conquest of the Islamic tribes circa 1100. Whole villages of women with children but no husbands existed. The women listed themselves as married but said that their husbands lived in Egypt. Some of the women had been living alone for 10 to 20 years and had developed businesses to support themselves, such as jar maker, merchant, etc. The older woman does not have the ‘shame’ of being an unmarried woman, but she has neither love, practical or financial assistance or a parenting partner. This is in spite of the fact that the Islamic scripture relative to polygamy goes into the responsibilities of the husband to his previous wife or wives quite specifically.

  46. Oh great, another example of how great polygamy is in action.

    GEEZ just when I thought the practice couldnt get more bad press..

    I guess Warren now has an entire village of like minded prison widows… Or what is it called, H Block at YFZipper Ranch.

  47. Emack’s attorney was told to file their Reply Brief by yesterday. Not sure if it got filed, but the sexual abuse part of his case could be ready to be set for a hearing.

  48. Stamp, good point about Prison widows, but remember most of the wives of his father he married were the young ones. Even Naomie wasn’t that old. I think he deliberately lowered the age and lowered the age so see how low he could get it before someone hollered foul.

  49. Betty –

    Thanks for your post regarding the history of Islamic polygyny in Sicily. The practice of abandonment of Islamic plural wives continues today, as 25% or more of the population of the “holy city” of Najaf in Iraq consists of abandoned plural wives who are left to beg for alms in the streets with their children.

  50. Did a search in the box above at the top of the page, here is the post and attending document detailing Lyles previous “Handling” adventures, and how he goes about it.

    Post is called “handled” – go figure!

    Dont know if the process has changed – pretty quick, down and dirty. The men just leave without a whimper, hardly saying goodbye to the wives and kiddies.

  51. I can get you the book reference for that if you like, S. The Egyptian men came to Sicily to do business and hold government offices and when the tide of war and politics turned, they just left wives and children and returned to Egypt, where they probably also had wives.

    That’s my interest area in historical re-enactment because it was one of the few kingdoms of the time in which multiple religions coexisted with relative peace (similar to Andalusia). That cultural mix and open exchange of trade and technology helped feed the development of modern Mediterranean culture.

  52. Not all of them leave. There are a few who tell him, “I respectfully decline” and stay in their homes with their families.

    That’s what wee willie did, although I don’t know if he was that ‘respectful’ about it.

    Probably more unusual to ‘decline,’ but a good sign that some are standing up to him.

  53. I’m not sure if Uncle Joe (Joseph S Jessop), the one with the family on the cover of National Geographic, is in our out. There are some reports that he respectfully declined and others that say he was never asked to leave. Any of the Crickers have any thoughts on it?

    As for Willie “respectfully” declining, I doubt it. I’m sure it was not a pretty scene and you’re right E, there was probably nothing respectful about his reaction. Wouldn’t you love to have a video of that confrontation.

  54. ‘Twould be entertaining to say the least!

  55. Sure Betty, I am interested in that reference, thanks for your offer. My husband is Sicilian.

  56. I have a feeling they wont record the conversation between Lyle and Willie in “Warren’s Wonder Book”.

    I remember one who “declined”, Ross Chatwin, he beat em in court as I recall and it was the beginning of the end for Warren.

  57. Arabic Administration in Norman Sicily: the Royal Diwan, Jeremy Johns

  58. Going back a bit, in response as to who this Rachel is, I think it’s Warren’s sister. She was married to Ron Rohbock and had children with him. When he was exed she married Wendell. What’s happened to Wendell, is he still around?

  59. The girl in that clip isn’t old enough to be Warren’s sister who was married to Rohbock and then Wendell. It looks like Warren’s daughter Rachel who didn’t have any kids on the ranch when the raid went down.

  60. Carry on from offline chat. Think Warren was shooting for Illinois and hit Japan?

    Or maybe he was off a few decades, and he was listening to Gordon Lightfoot when he wrote Obama.

    Hmmm that Prophet meter seems broke!

  61. The legend lives on from Salt Lake on down
    Of the town they called “Short Creek”

    The town, it is said, never gives up its dead
    When the skies of November turn bleak

    With a load of crap twenty-six thousand tons more
    Than the entire town weighed empty.

    That town and its crew was a bone to be chewed
    When the gales of November came early.

    The town was the pride of the Polygamist side
    Coming back from some vill in Nauvoo

    As the fundy cults go, it was bigger than most
    With a crew and crazy captain well seasoned

    Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms
    When they left fully loaded for YfZ

    And later that night when the town’s bell rang
    Could it be the north wind they’d been feelin’?

    The wind in the wires made a tattle-tale sound
    And a cop broke over the railing

    And every man knew, as the captain did too,
    T’was the witch of November come stealin’.


    Welcome to Texas Warren, call your friends and say hello!

  62. I’d call it filk but ol Betty will probably bleat and carry on about me being off her topic. Heh.

  63. Filk it is.

  64. FU, stamp

  65. Me again

    No personal insult intended, since I dont know who the heck you are. I am not clairvoyant.

    Making fun of Warren and his ways. Too bad if it offended you.

    The FLDS offend me. BIG TIME.

    And admin, thanks for fixing the post.

  66. Oh, and that reminds me, “Me Again”, just stopping by to throw poo again?

    Why dont you at least give the class some posts why you think the FLDS should enjoy Constitutional protections so they can engage in their ongoing pedophilia and the international child sex slave activities coming to light? Still repenting from afar?

    Give it up!

    After all, you were indeed one of those who covered your eyes when this was going on all around you, right?

  67. Latest on UEP debacle in the Deseret News:

    Parties in UEP saga have 20 days to reach agreement

    Some quotes:

    Benson warned assistant attorneys general from Utah and Arizona that continued state-management of the assets belonging to the FLDS Church are “constitutional violations of a serious magnitude,” that warrant cessation as soon as possible.

    “My main concern is that this continual violation,” into the everyday lives of “thousands of people not happen. The government is where it shouldn’t be.”

    “I am not unaware of what a mess it must be down there. … The number of disputes must be difficult to manage. It’s a little bit like trying to figure out how to get out of Iraq.”

  68. Well there ya go!

    Dee actually told Rod Parker and the FLDS to act in good faith huh?

    This is going to rock the little Short Creek world, now that there are a bunch of apostates running about and Dee wants to hand power over to Warren.

    Get ready for the fireworks!

  69. Maybe Federal Marshalls should be sent in to keep the peace.

  70. Ohhh maybe I was a little prophetic!

    Dee has ordered the UEP to fall again in Warrens evil hands, so you can betcha he will be warming up his pesky Cell o phone!

    This entire debacle reminds me of the keystone cops. This go around Warren might do a lot more damage before another, higher judge comes again to the rescue.

    Horse apples, meet oscillating blades!

  71. Someone needs to interview wee Willie and find out what he thinks now about his court shopping debacle.

  72. Dee Benson:

    “”I am not unaware of what a mess it must be down there. … The number of disputes must be difficult to manage. It’s a little bit like trying to figure out how to get out of Iraq.””


    Said as he jumps in with both feet. There will be all hell breaking loose, thanks Dee! Yer special!

  73. I dont know about federal marshalls patrolling, perhaps so since this was a federal ruling.

    I hope they crawl all over the place and jack a few for RICO violations!

  74. Federal ruling, Federal marshalls to keep the peace when all hell breaks out. Works for me.

    Well actually it doesn’t work for me because the trust defaulted to the Lost Boys, Brent Jeffs and Elissa and so there’s no way in hell that the FLDS should get anything back. It should go to those with the Judgment against it.

  75. I’m good with that too. Back to square one.

    Dee didnt know the size of the cow pasture manure he was stepping in!

  76. Imagine that, Phillip Barlow, a cousin of George M. Barlow has been named as Mayor of Hildale. So much for being scared of the Barlows. If he’s going to appoint Barlows now, why did he ex them all years ago?

  77. Does anyone know who Phillip Barlow’s father is?

    There are probably enough Barlows to account for nearly half of Short Creek if you include all the youngsters and married females. And there are a whole lot of grown Barlow males that aren’t scary at all. It was those older well-established men that were worrisome, so they were kicked out. It still slays me that they left without a whimper.

  78. Dee Benson is bristling and “…lambasting attorneys for being unconcerned with his decision that the state has violated the sect’s constitutional rights.”

    “But following Benson’s ruling, the justices asked attorneys to file briefs for a ruling that could determine whether Benson can rule in the case. Assistant Attorney General Joni Jones argued if the Supreme Court rules laches is binding on all courts, Benson may not have jurisdiction to hear the case.”


    Trib article by Melinda Rogers

  79. Benson is afraid of being told by the Utah Supreme Court that he was totally out of order to even allow himself to be hand picked by the FLDS to skirt around the Supreme Court ruling. If they rule laches is binding then Benson and the FLDS are SOL.

  80. Jospeh Isreal Barlow and Leta Black are Philip’s parents. He appears to be the same age as his cousin George. But unlike his cousin, Phlip is a bigamist and also married an underage bride. His 2nd wife was 16 when he married her and she was 17 when she gave birth to their first child. Oops!!!!!

  81. Philip Barlow’s father is Joseph I. Barlow, as far as I know, ET

  82. Thanks! Just curious whether I knew the father. I didn’t.

    Always nice to see you here yehaaa6.

  83. Oh wait! Yes I did! Where is he now?


    “Philip Barlow, 48, will be mayor at least until the November election, when he will run for the office.

    “I’m just glad to serve,” he said. “I just want to dedicate myself to the success of this community and building it up.”


    Code for “I am gonna brown nose Warren and Lyle to no end and be their puppy dog”

  85. #

    Benson is afraid of being told by the Utah Supreme Court that he was totally out of order to even allow himself to be hand picked by the FLDS to skirt around the Supreme Court ruling. If they rule laches is binding then Benson and the FLDS are SOL.

    Proud Texan said this on March 15, 2011 at 11:23 PM

    Benson is a federal judge and his rulings override state law and state constitution’s, the Utah Supreme Court has no authority over federal judges. Only the federal appeals courts or the US Supreme Court have authority to overrule Benson’s rulings.

    If Utah & Arizona don’t like Benson’s ruling, they can file appeal with federal appeals court and ask for stay while appeals court decides case. Since they haven’t so far means they may have decided to throw the whole mess into the federal courts, which could leave those with judgements holding worthless pieces of paper. They would have to file news lawsuits in federal court and start all over. Which would leave Warren Jeffs and his supporters in full control of UEP, leading to those Warren doesn’t like being legally evicted from there homes, and Wisan run out of town.

  86. Conspiracies are hard to keep quiet because by definition they require collusion of multiple parties so I rarely go down that rabbit hole.

    However….the timing of this, the fact that Benson is Parker’s ex-law partner, jeffs retaking control within the same time frame all make me want to at least LOOk in the rabbit hole….

  87. According to those I checked with A Texan, that’s not the case. Federal Courts don’t always trump State Courts. As for the Judgments being worthless, that’s wrong too. The judgments they had were before the state takeover and actually what caused Rod Parker to request the state takeover, so the judgments should stand against the original trust.

  88. PT,
    I can’t remember – did the Lost Boys and Elissa Walls win judgements? or were they going to court and the process delayed by the transfer of UEP assets which occurred with their approval?

  89. ET – Joseph Israel Barlow died last Fall (1927-2010).

  90. Don’t know who goes by skypilot at gosanangelo but ‘es fullovit.

  91. which article>?

  92. New book to be released shortly – “Secrets and Wives – The Hidden World of Mormon Polygamy”

  93. Here is a link to documentary videos by the same author – “The Man with 80 Wives”

  94. ohhh that’s the guy with the small world?

  95. Interesting viewing. Someone refresh my memory…the ‘weapons stockpile’ mentioned in part 2…was that true? To me that would mean a massive amounts of weapons found, vs the ‘usual’ amount one finds in places where people hunt, etc. As my Texan friend likes to remind me…”Texans were born with a gun in one hand”.

  96. Nope, another one. Well at least we can tell him where the bugger lives now.

  97. They’d killed off the wildlife and eaten it, so the weapons storage was uhm unnecessary. They weren’t Texans.

    Texans earn their firearms. Has your friend mentioned that?

  98. LOL

    One of their first busts, as I recall, was for poaching deer.

    They thought they could ignore wildlife laws as well.


  99. Was that to further the pretense they were a….hunting lodge? LOL! They were getting away with poaching little girls, why not deer!

  100. @chaps

  101. Why isn’t bringing up Parker and Benson’s former association stirring up any dust, do ya spose?

  102. That is what I am wondering. Why hasn’t someone filed an ethics complaint ?


    I missed this February article, but Carolyn Jessop suggests Jeffs is exing all these people because he had a dream that someone was aspiring for his position as profit.

    Funny he doesn’t suspect Lyle, like most of us. It’s not like he has ever been squirmish about exing his brothers.

    She also says in the next sentence that he ordered them all to quit having sex until this is resolved.

    This should be interesting.

  104. That must have had his jailers rolling on the floor with bellylaughs.

  105. I heard no marriages and no babies until further notice.

  106. What I can’t believe is that Wee Willie is keeping his trap shut about his exing. That’s not like him. I’d love to hear his take on it. Surely Brent and/or Mike can spare some time to run down to the Crick and interview Willie.

  107. Another article by Ben Winslow regarding UEP – documents included:

    An anonymous flier appeared at the post office calling ex-FLDS members who’ve moved into town “squatters,” and suggesting the attorney general committed “treason.”

    Read the story…

    Utah Supreme Court UEP Ruling

    Attention Squatters Flier in UEP Case

  108. Sorry… here’s the link to the story.

  109. Headlines 230 children rescued in that pedophile ring bust out of Amsterdam but global.

    430 were rescued out of that YFZ human breeding ranch yet returned to their rapists and pimps.

  110. New Era?

    Any way, I am thinking maybe we need US troops in there right away, it doesn’t look right to me. Those are some fick suckers.

  111. ET, I’m going to need to wayway enlarge text to read all that, and take some time.


    This is a pretty good take on Warren’s proclamation.

  113. A good sense of humor is a sign of intelligence. The spectrum writer’s got it.

  114. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that the Utah Supreme Court appears to be pissed at Federal Judge Dee Benson and it’s fixing to be an all out messy battle between courts.

  115. Don’t you gotta wonder Wee Willie’s stance now on ex-FLDS living on UEP property.

  116. “I heard no marriages and no babies until further notice.”

    If Warren can’t have em, no one can?

  117. Looks that way to me, too, PT.

  118. Willie Jessop is Keeping Sweet just like he is supposed to do.

    Dont think he has gotten his eviction notice yet tho delivered by Lyle and his posse. hmmm… a youtube moment in the making!

    As far as the rule of no sex, that might be one reason so many are getting exed, LOL.

    Those next rounds of confession letters are going to be a HOOT!

    “Dear Warren, I am sorry to inform you, but Sister Wife #5 is irrisistable in that prairie dress and hair style! The Baby is due in Sept.”

  119. What concerns me is if a current member of the FLDS does get pregnant with the ban in force – what would happen to her and her husband ?

  120. ha ha ha!

    That Spectrum author is a man after mine own heart. One of the best pieces they have printed!


    “Apparently, Jeffs has been letting a lot of people go himself, excommunicating more than 40 men and women from his church during the past 10 weeks. Some guys study law in the joint, others lift weights; Jeffs excommunicates people.

    We may soon see a burgeoning prison industry: documents written by inmates warning that if they aren’t set free bad things will happen.

    And you know Jeffs will take all the credit the first time a tornado blasts a trailer park. He’ll call a press conference and say, “See, I told you. Had enough yet? Let me out of here or I’ll order a hurricane the way you guys order pizza.”

    Maybe Jeffs is just sick of jail food.

    I wonder if he turned in documents like this to his teachers in lieu of homework.

    “Give me a passing grade and an airplane won’t fall on the school.”

    I think Jeffs is cranky because he has a surplus of the ultimate marriage baggage – mothers-in-law. That would drive a guy into writing a nine-page document promising holocausts.

    He may be onto something, though. The next time husbands are in the doghouse, they can produce a document warning of dire events if their wives don’t repent and release them. My kids will probably crank out a few documents, their retribution for the recently-produced list of household chores.

    And I think I’ll open a new business: Doomsday Documents R Us. It’s got to pay more than working for a newspaper.”

  121. S

    I would expect they would be banished as apostates! One day, they are making babies as quickly as possible, the next day, STOP!

    And maybe its a way to get them to pay more money? Trying to determine the method behind his madness.

    Oh, I know, that will never happen!

  122. FLDS flier threatening non flds – hmm Willie Jessop, Merril Jessop, Wendel Nielsen, and the 50 others, guess this means you too!


  123. It could be a free-for-all in the twin towns if the 2 courts take aim at each other and do battle.

  124. It’s my understanding that if the Utah Supreme Court says that laches is binding in Utah, Judge Benson would have to have someone file something in his court claiming the Utah law of laches is unconstitutional. While the FLDS might go this route seeing as they have a sympathetic judge, it’s a long process to have a law declared unconstitutional.

  125. I wonder when the evictions will start.

  126. Testing

  127. Well, I seem to have my gravatar back. Wonder where she went?

  128. She looks out of focus, Betty

  129. If Judge Benson wanted to see the FLDS acting in good faith, he has been given:


  130. Everything looks out of focus to me, but my new glasses should take care of that. Getting old is not for sissies.

  131. LOL

    “And you know Jeffs will take all the credit the first time a tornado blasts a trailer park. He’ll call a press conference and say, “See, I told you. Had enough yet? Let me out of here or I’ll order a hurricane the way you guys order pizza.”

  132. Are you saying the flyer is Exhibit A, Stamp?

  133. Yeah, that was what I was referring to. Obviously, these things are only put out by people in power, or ordered by such.

    It’s a perfect example of the mindset – there is no negotiating with them, there is no being reasonable. Even convictions and rulings are appealed to the high heavens. They even took a bigamy conviction to the SCOTUS.

    I suspect this is where this is headed eventually.

    Also, Benson’s ties with Parker will be an eye opener to many as this case crosses more desks IMHO. He should have recused himself, instead of hearing a case with his old partner as one of the lawyers.

    These good ol boy rulings often fall apart faster than it took to cook the molasses to stick them together.

  134. Wonder if Merril’s daughter Maggie Jessop has been exed?

  135. Maggie had lost her place prior to the raid, she was elsewhere and her children were on the ranch. The last I heard she was in the Crick.

  136. Yanno

    I just cant get over how sick a lot of this is, it just never ends.

    To send away a mother and keep her 1,000 miles away, while her children are raised like veal in a cage on a cult compound – is this Afghanistan?

  137. You have to remember that 2 of Maggie’s kids are young girls.

  138. What was the resolution? Were they sent back to be with mom, mom brought back out, or horror, just left status quo, in the care of some wicked sister wife?

  139. What about the Marilynn lady who said she only had one child and gave the tour of the ranch? Is she still in? Was she one of Warrens wives?

  140. A bit off topic is this viewpoint from a Jewish angle on subject of Elizabeth Smart kidnapping and recent award she received at UN.

    “And yet there are Esthers out there today. One modern-day Esther is Elizabeth Smart, who was kidnapped from her home in 2002 and subjected to daily horrors by her captors until escaping almost nine months later.”

  141. Did a follower or supporter of polygamist Brain David Mitchell attack Elizabeth Smart in a bathroom shortly after she was rescued from polygamy? Apparently so as revealed in interview with Elizabeth Smart’s father.

    From article: “At first we thought it was a tabloid but it turned out to be some woman who had known Brian Mitchell [Elizabeth’s convicted abductor] and said “Well he’s really a nice guy, he didn’t do this to you.” But Elizabeth stayed there frozen in a corner.

    IMO it would appear that those who escape forced polygamist marriage are subject to threats and harassment by followers of the so called profits. Guess this is why so many women & girls in polygamists groups are afraid to leave, as well as many men & boys.

  142. The only Merilyn with one child I can think of is Sally’s daughter, affectionately known as unibrow. She’s married to Wendell along with her mom, so who knows if she’s in or out.

    Birth Date: 06/14/88
    Address : 53 S 200 W, Washington, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    22:37:49 03/14/11 Ray, Christophe WCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    58-37a-5 POSSESS PARAPHERNALIA BM 5DIS 390.00 390.00
    58-37-8(2)d DRUG-MARIJUANA UNDER BM 5DIS 583.00 583.00

    Birth Date: 07/04/74
    Address : 540 WEST JOHNSON AVE, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    16:40:07 03/14/11 Boltis, Wayne WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

    Birth Date: 06/14/88
    Address : 53 S 200 W, Washington, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    15:30:00 03/14/11 Ray, Christophe WCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    58-37a-5 POSSESS PARAPHERNALIA BM 5DIS 390.00 [No Payments Made]
    58-37-8(1)a MD DRUG-MARIJUANA, DISTR 2F 5DIS 10398.00 10398.00
    10000.00 [No Payments Made]

    Birth Date: 04/23/76
    Address : LAKE POWELL CAMPGROUND; 112, Page, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    13:03:15 03/14/11 Reid, Donald WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    WARRANT-CASH WARRANT-CASH ONLY BM WCJ7 500.00 [No Payments Made] 500.00 [No Payments Made] 0.00 [No Payments Made]

    Birth Date: 02/16/77
    Address : 2163 E 170 S CIR, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    01:30:00 03/13/11 Other Agency MCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    HOLDOA HOLD-OTHER AGENCY TRA BM MOHA 1200.00 [No Payments Made]

    Birth Date: 11/30/89
    Address : 260 N DIXIE DR; 637, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    19:25:00 03/12/11 Willinger, Trav SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  149. Every single arrest, a cousin. My, the fallout. Endless cycle.

    My seven year old built 4 separate leprechaun traps this week (obtained no tags from fish & game) hoping to obtain and fully subjugate a 20 inch human-fairy. Where have I gone wrong?

  150. Different fairy tale, AND you’re doing it for fun.

  151. Hope my keeper doesn’t mind.

  152. Thanks, Granny. I quite commonly commit the sin of taking myself too seriously.

  153. Well 3rd Cousin, you can’t be their keeper all the time. As for obtaining tags for leprechaun traps, I don’t think tags are necessary on St. Patrick’s Day. It’s one of those universal no tag days.

  154. Two stories out of Canada regarding support for polygamy by the B.C. Civil Liberties Association:

    Civil liberties group supports polygamy in landmark court case


    B.C. Civil Liberties Assn. says polygamy law erodes dignity and denies privacy

  155. No one ever said the civil libertirpes union was right, in fact there have been times when I have detested positions taken by the ACLU.

  156. Yes, I’m sure the ACLU would be behind revoking polygamy laws. But then, you’ve all heard my ‘the government should get out of the marriage business and spend more time on the not raping 12 year olds business’ speech.

  157. See the Canadian Reference Case Thread. I posted the closing statements of the BCCLA on that thread last night. This is no surprise, as their opening statements filed last fall clearly supported repeal of anti polygamy statutes in Canada.

  158. Here is their closing statement –
    To see their opening statement, see the Canadian Reference Case thread.
    Their opinion on the matter has not changed. It is the same position they have held prior to the reference case.

  159. Of course they’d want to keep illegal acts … “private”.

  160. Read some of the BC “Civil Liberties” crap.

    Problem is, (at least I didnt see it) is that it doesnt address the property rights of the now lower caste underwives, or first wives for that matter, nor does it address properly the issue with children.

    The lost boys section went down a rabbit hole and I began chalking the entire piece up as cheap spin.

    Who cares what grown adults do in the bedroom or in a mud pit? I dont care, its the children, stupid!

    I reckon Canada will clue in to that.

  161. The BCCLA position statement also does not take into consideration the wishes or concerns of the first or senior wives in plural marriages, and whether or not they were consulted about their husband’s desire to have another wife enter the relationship. In Islam, the first wives or senior wives are supposed to be consulted and give their consent to plural marriage, but we know from published data that they are seldom consulted – and they suffer economic hardship and emotional problems as a result. Decriminalization would do NOTHING to help these women or guarantee their rights.

  162. I also recall reading some accounts of Mormon fundamentalist polygamous wives who were not consulted about new wives added to their marriage – or they were simply informed that their husband intended to marry another woman and they had to accept it. Sometimes there was very little notice – or same day notice – regarding their husband’s nuptials. How would simply decriminalizing polygamy assist them ??? Folks need to think this through…

  163. Mormon fundamentalist polygamous wives’ (first, senior or otherwise) only rule is to go along with whatever the prophet says. When he says to a man, “God has revealed that so-and-so is to be sealed to you,” neither he nor his wife/wives have any say in it. There is no such thing as “consultation.” The only recognized response is, “Yes.”

    By virtue of paying tithing and rendering obedience, they are consenting. (Note, I didn’t say consenting adults.) Decriminalizing polygamy would have absolutely no bearing on the situation.

    You might as well equate the Warren-revised FLDS with the Borg…
    Resistance is futile!

  164. Yes ET, that is the practice in the FLDS.
    But in other polygamy groups, what happens ? I know the Kingston group has arranged marriages, but what about the Harmston group? The AUB appears not to have arranged marriages, but do the senior wives REALLY have any say regarding their husband’s choice of new spouses ? I have heard inconsistent responses on this issue …

  165. (while BiB awaits ET’s response, here is a link to the latest chapter of John Llewellyn’s book – Mormon Polygamy – a Virus of the Mind – Chapter 5 –

  166. Chapter 5 Link –

  167. So much for Mudpuppy saying Maggie’s children were too traumatized to return to the ranch. Guess where they signed the petition!!!

  168. I’m thinking of the biographies of the two LeBaron wives. Both of them found out that their husband had already married a new wife without consulting them. But you have to realize that it’s not the law that’s making them accept that! They could turn their husbands in for bigamy and they don’t.

  169. OK, this my opinion and I will admit I am a liberal (who would NEVER live a polygamist or “alternatie” type of lifestyle) – so don’t blast me for my view – I am just sharing.

    My system really doesn’t like anything from – much too hard to read. But, from what I read of the BCCLA – I have to agree with their statement. What they try to make clear is that any “consenting relationship” of more than 2 should be granted. I read it to say that as everyone in the relationship has to consent. So rights of 1st wife would be granted – becuase she would have to consent and has the right to divorce if her rights are stepped on. That concept only gets muddy when her salvation is tied into the marriage/divorce and she is denied her rights as an individual. It is seperate from right to keep government out of your bedroom and kitchen. Letting individuals decide their own form of family.

    Taking the case of the difference between – Sister Wives type relationship and FLDS type of relationships those differences are vast. (not that I could do the sister wife thing either – but, I am willing to let everyone do their own thing as long as everyone’s rights are not denied.

    What FLDS does that still would be illegal in my mind:
    1) lack of individual rights and freedoms to choose their own path.
    2) slave labor – breaking labor laws.
    3) under age marriage.
    4) Lying for the Lord
    5) any child endangerment.
    6) keeping children from getting at least 12 years of education.

    I am sure I could go on with the list of FLDS horrible treatment of it’s members but, I think you get my point.

  170. “So rights of 1st wife would be granted – becuase she would have to consent and has the right to divorce if her rights are stepped on.”

    A lot of first wives are poor, uneducated Muslim immigrants who can’t afford a lawyer. The bigamy statutes permit them to approach a DA and report their husbands, which is exactly what happened in Philadelphia recently. These women could never afford a divorce lawyer.

  171. With the LeBarons a woman would decide who she felt impressed to marry and it was kind of bad form for the guy to say no. The guy’s other wives were pretty much “consulted” as they were being dragged by the hand bawling to the new wife’s wedding. Many brides were young teenagers of course.

  172. Polygamy as practiced by the FLDS Church is far more legal violations and denial of individual rights/freedoms, as the BC Supreme Court closing statements are soon to prove out. A rligious teaching that wives and children are the physical property of the priesthood, prophet and church is frought with potential abuses. The practices of reassignment, border smuggling, safe-houses, marrying minors, child labor, curbed educations and shunning of apostates exasterbates the efforts made to preserve and perpetuate plural marriage to the degradation of each church member, either priesthood, plural wife or children.

  173. I don’t see how anyone who believes in D&C Section 132 can really give their “consent” to their husband’s polygamous relationship – it is either consent or “be destroyed”

    Consent obtained by means of coercion is not legal consent.

  174. So this “civil liberties” group thinks that all the women consent, all the time, when hubby brings in any number of wives at any number of ages..?

    Just what does the BCCL think of divorce, and how to divide the man up when they are done with him?

    Or are the women just expected to trot off with their tail between their legs and their head hanging low?

    Not much of a civil liberty if you ask me.

  175. Actually the BCCLA document does not address the issue of whether or not everyone consents to the polygamous arrangement. They ASSUME that everyone does consent, which is where they are off base.

  176. BiB… I can really only talk about FLDS practices and beliefs. What I know about the other mormon polygamous groups is as anecdotal from my perspective as it is yours.

    I’m not like a lot of other belief ‘rejectors’ who need to fill their religious gap by studying many or all the other religions to see which one suits me better. Once burned, twice shy, as the saying goes, so I don’t know.

    It is my opinion, however, that for all mormon fundamentalist groups – including the ones you and Betty mentioned – there is one overarching issue. And that is, whose right it is to rule! It drives everything and must never be dismissed.

    I agree, some seem much more relaxed with their marriage practices and they are more apt to allow choices. But I can’t speak to particulars.

    Each group has a form of leadership (usually a prophet, seer, revelator, seniority-holder – always a man) that claims to be called, designated, or in some way set apart by god. He is followed by anyone he can convince that he has that right to rule (because god said so). And by that measure, that man holds his position until he dies. He does not have the option to resign and there is no option for getting rid of him – other than murder.

    First you accept the man and his premise, then faith and obedience follows. Lack of education, socialization, economic resources, etc. – and especially the mind control always inherent in cults – make for a losing situation (psychologically) for anyone with a rebellious streak.

    What I’m trying to say is, ‘consent’ is given long before any marriage takes place when the decision is made to accept that some man/prophet has the right to rule your life and tell you what to believe.

    I think when a woman gives up her right to say, “No, I do not consent to (whatever it is),” it becomes little enough to pay for her belief in salvation.

  177. Scrap polygamy laws and prosecute forced marriages, lawyer says

    Read more:

  178. I agree, the problem is what constitutes “force” when folks’ mantra is “perfect obedience produces perfect faith,” and the prophet and your priesthood head are the be-all and end-all in your existence.

    It’s extortion.

  179. Scrap laws to weaken the ones that should be enforced?

    Who thunk that, some ACLU hack?

    Thats like decriminalizing heroin use, and raising the limit to a pound of heroin for personal use but acting like you are getting tougher on dealers.

  180. This guy seems to get picked up at least once a week:

    Birth Date: 05/21/82
    Address : TRANSIENT, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    18:22:54 03/18/11 Stevenson, Bett WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  181. Another cousin Third cousin?

    Birth Date: 04/28/87
    Address : 3155 S HIDDEN VALLEY DR; #159, St George UT 84, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    03:02:00 03/18/11 Klotz, Kory WCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-6a-710 IMPROPER LANE TRAVEL/ CM WCJ6 90.00 90.00
    41-6a-502 DUI-1st,2nd OFFENSE BM WCJ6 1405.00 1405.00

  182. Not FLDS, but I like the name:

    Birth Date: 09/06/84
    Address : 464 S 100 W, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    14:13:28 03/17/11 Maughan, Zachar SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-10-107 PSYCHOTOXIC CHEMICAL BM WCJ7 430.00 [No Payments Made] 2500.00 [No Payments Made]
    76-9-701 INTOXICATION CM WCJ7 190.00 [No Payments Made] 190.00 [No Payments Made]

  183. If the FLDS thought it was OK to marry underage girls and impregnate them, then why was there so much lying going on when CPS came knocking at the door.

  184. In the words of Aunt Meg in Twister:

    “Because its what they DOOOoooo….”

  185. Heck its Spring, Twister season – here is a Twister tribute.

  186. People raised in a CULT have no idea what normal is…and they have no idea what free will or self determination are either…therefore they cannot give informed consent

  187. Anon 8:32 – Most likely Steed is a cousin.

    I wonder what kind of endorsement from the shooting range it would take to get a judge to change my name to Nevermissashot.

  188. My old friend’s dad knew John Nevermissashot. I could probably tell you what the substance is, it’s legal on the rez.

  189. Buttons? Yeah, well leave it to Utah to make a nasty cactus into some big crime, all the while child molesters are running about with no leash.

  190. It was legal for old John to come down to south Texas and into Mexico to collect and bring back peyote, yes. Native American Church. They’re all long dead now.

  191. People raised in a CULT have no idea what normal is… and probably never will. They may see it, but never be it.

    …and they have no idea what free will or self determination are either… but CAN learn those with time and patience.

    …therefore they cannot give informed consent… not before they find out (if ever) they had free will and self determination all along and could have made a difference if they had understood.

    Once realized, it can become a source of shame, bitterness, anger and sadness for time lost and lives ruined, sometimes leading to self hate, substance abuse and even suicide.

    Makes me real tired just thinking about it…

  192. Originally Rosebud Sioux I think but he got around. I was honored at one time, was asked to go up on the rez to teach but there were reasons I could not accept.

  193. E Texas, your opinion, why to ‘they’ pretend they give free will, FLDS? I know it’s a sick, sick joke.

  194. Mr. Nevermissashot seems to get arrested almost as often as Rulon Casey Black.

  195. That is what I love about ET – she moved on in a very positive and constructive way, and she is a terrific role model for those exiting cults.

  196. She’s got a stronger constitution – not everyone is so blessed.

    The other side of the coin, as she presents tho, is the harm that this business brings to so many people in the first place and the attendant risk of depression when you find out you were in too deep for too long as well as the realization the leaders were all a farce.

  197. You have to check out this blog:

  198. Is Rulon a lost lost boy?

  199. Today is Taanis Esther, (The Fast of Esther), the day before the Feast of Purim. Purim commemorates the triumph of Queen Esther, (the wife of the polygamist Persian King Xerxes), over those who wanted to exterminate the Jews of Persia. Esther successfully made an appeal to her polygamist husband which resulted in an extermination order against Jews being lifted.

  200. For Betty – since your perception is that God is an Ashkenazi from NY, this Taanis Esther video is for you

  201. My friend’s synopsis of Jewish history…they tried to kill us, but failed; let’s EAT!

  202. WHAT, I thought that was my Ashkenas Shappee there in NY.

  203. That blog is a hoot! Quite a few pics never seen before!

  204. The poof thing is surreal, but there are some classy french braids. Before I cut my hair I used similar styles. I’d often french braid others’ hair at SCA encampments and around the country at state/US/BLM campgrounds. Guess what, no hairspray needed.

  205. A definite poof fetish. Did you ever see the cartoon where an FLDS child has a poof two feet high, so she can meet the height requirment for marriage?

  206. What blog are you talking about, Stamp?

  207. Which blog ???

  208. This one posted by anon above – I couldnt find the cartoon with the child with a two foot poof yet though.

    You have to check out this blog:

  209. Good blog. I wonder how Warren feels about his child brides locking arms with Oprah and posing for pictures in front of his portrait. That was funny.

  210. No swoopy hair poofs, no prairie dresses. I want you to hear these west Texas girls, if I’m doing this right. I doubt FLDS kids are even taught the words or the tune.

  211. It angers me to my core that if these children were FLDS they’d be pregnant by some creepy old criminal.

  212. Great video Granny. Those girls are awesome.

  213. Yes…I vote they sing at the next Super Bowl….

  214. well, I do know the words to the song, so some of us did learn it. that’s a pretty good rendition of it too. although one thing we were taught never to do was to “throw” your voice. it’s rather sad because I think I could be a decent singer if I could figure out how to do that. lol.

  215. What kind of schooling did you have yehaaa6?

  216. Yehaaa I’m sorry but don’t know better. What I’ve based that on was not seeing US and State flags, flagrant disregard for our nation’s and states’ laws, people who won’t serve our nation or don’t have the education to pass asvab tests to enlist, those people who outright lie to tv viewing public, live off our “gentile” taxpayers, &c. YES I know there are exceptions.

  217. Heard through the grapevine that Warren spends upwards of 12 hours a day on the phone. He’s buying the “collect” calling phone cards, so those in the Crick better keep their hands in their pockets because Lyle will come collecting when the phone bill comes due.

  218. Curious to know if Annette visits or if only Naomi gets the visiting privilege? Some jail time if the prophet gets to carry on his business of running the lives of his followers while behind bars. Does he have internet service too?

  219. No internet in his cell. Visitors are usually male was all that was said and this is from someone else who also visits someone in the jail. The comment was that the collect calling cards are pricy both to purchase and for the person getting the collect call, even if it is a local call.

    Personally, I think he needs a prison job, like delivering toilet paper to each cell. That would keep him busy and give his followers a break from his ranting.

  220. 12 hours a day? When is he even out in the yard? Can you imagine being his cellmate?

  221. His exercise appears to be limited to lifting a phone receiver. I’m betting he doesn’t have a cellmate.

  222. What kind of schooling did you have yehaaa6?

    Anonymous said this on March 20, 2011 at 11:21 AM

    I went to public school in the crick til 5th grade, and went to a “priesthood” school til 10th grade. more schooling than a lot of the other young men down there. when I left, I was able to get my GED within a month of leaving, and I’m in my second semester of college now, just taking generals.

  223. I would MAKE him go out into the yard and exercise. They’re housing an emaciated, lethargic, sun-deprived, vitamin D deficient, paranoid, workaholic, self-proclaimed prophet-in-pedophile who is deferring his inner rage onto his own loyalists.

  224. Someone’s pulled some strings.

    I have NEVER heard of a jail cell phone that can be abused like that.

    I have NEVER heard of a commissary account that would cover 12 hours daily COLLECT calling cards or whatever that is.

    Someone’s gotten a tidy little something.

  225. Sorry Granny, no special treatment for the Profit. He only had to buy one card from the commissary to allow Collect calls. Then whoever he calls gets to pay the rest. It’s all real and above board.

    Birth Date: 03/21/91
    Address : 370 N HOMESTEAD ST, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    02:26:00 03/19/11 Yates, Kurt HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    53-3-227(1) DL REVOKED-NON DRUG/A CM 5DIS 300.00 300.00
    76-10-2301 CONTRIBUTE TO DELINQ BM 5DIS 583.00 583.00
    76-8-306(3)c OBSTRUCT JUSTICE AM 5DIS 1943.00 1943.00

  227. I wonder what delinquent he was contributing to, he’s just a kid himself.

  228. “Heard through the grapevine that Warren spends upwards of 12 hours a day on the phone. “

    Good grief!

    So I wonder what it’s like for whomever has to sit all that time monitoring all 12 of those hours each day. And (hopefully) recording them????

    I also wonder if a lot of that is spent dictating with Naomie scribing at the other end of the line.

    Ohhh… another thought… since he’s the only man who holds the sealing keys, would jail officials interfere if he was being ‘mouth’ conducting marriage ceremonies over the phone?

    Trying to wrap my head around whether that kind of maneuver (if the guards know about and allow it) would be recognized by God – for time and eternity. That does make my head hurt!

  229. It’s a strange world


    Check this out.

  231. News story:

    ‘The Primer’ helps decipher the world of polygamy

    “The Primer” is now being published by the Family Support Center, which administers the Safety Net Committee, a coalition of government agencies, social service providers and members of polygamous communities with a common goal of reaching into and providing help to closed societies. The book was created by the Utah and Arizona Attorney General’s Offices to help government officials and social workers understand the terms and customs unique to polygamous culture.

    “‘The Primer’ is like a little textbook, so to speak,” said Mike Leetham, an administrator of the Safety Net Committee.


    Here is the latest edition of ‘The Primer’ itself:

    If you haven’t read it before, you may find some interesting information. P

  232. E, I’ve been told that all his conversations are recorded unless it is with his attorney. As for whether or not they’d allow marriages to occur, probably, and if he happened to seal an underage girl to himself, another indictment can be handed down.

    Now we know why Naomie’s at the ranch and not in Big Lake, but I wonder if she’s still telling him what happened when he was asleep.

  233. Pardon my trailing P…

    and it looks like Anon posted the same link at exactly the same time I did.

  234. I was just coming over to post that too E, I guess I won’t make it a trifecta.

  235. PT… now that would mean some pretty amazing personal revelations Naomie’s receiving. She could be making a real case for herself.

  236. Yeah, that she’s the power behind the revelations!!! Imagine her brother’s anger, if that were true, that she had them exed. I don’t think that would be a pretty sight.

    My theory on why Warren isn’t allowing any visitors in March is 1) they would interrupt his phone time and 2) would you want that many crazy women coming to yell at you for exing their fathers? He’s married to a ton of Merril’s daughters and a bunch of his sisters are married to Wendell. That could make for some pretty hot visitations.

  237. Some of those Big Lake personnel will be able to write a book after this is all over. 😀

  238. Won’t they though. Too bad Oprah’s out of business.

  239. Is it possible that this exing is all a sham to throw everyone off?

    If not, I do feel sorry for those who have followed him and defended him all these years. Imagine their disillusionment. I do hope they have been smart and read all they could, checked all the blogs and become informed about what he has been doing and what his diaries have revealed. Then surely some of them are reorganizing.

    Wish they would go back to following the prophets of old and the Bible. But then Im not from a Mormon community nor am I a Mormon.

  240. An older anonymous… I have some stronger words than disillusionment:

    betrayal, treachery, deceit, entrapment, hoodwinked, double-crossed, thrown under the bus or sold down the river… are just a few.

    A massive amount of personal baggage has to be sorted out before one is able to ‘reorganize’ and move along. That’s why so many men are willing to repent from afar; it’s a helluva lot easier than taking charge of your life and those you’re supposedly responsible for.

    I’m here to attest that ‘letting go’ and biting the bullet called ‘choice’ is far from the easiest path to take – especially when you’ve been hoodwinked for at least half your pathetic life.

  241. But you COULD be right! All the exing COULD be a sham. What can we do but wait and see.

  242. You are far from pathetic E. Texas. You are remarkable and don’t forget it.

    As for all the exings being a sham, I’ve got it on pretty good authority that both Jim Oler and Merril Palmer are out in Canada and Wee Willie putting his kids in ElCap isn’t a sham since they are attending classes there. Also, Terrill Johnson and David Zitting resigning their mayoral posts that they’ve held for a long time isn’t a sham.

    I tend to believe exing is going on, if for no other reason than Warren is bored in his jail cell and this gives him something to do. He gets to kick out and then rearrange the remaining families. And all the while the faithful are footing the bill for his phone calls. Collect calls from jail run about $3.00 per minute. If he’s on the phone for 12 hours a day, that’s 720 minutes. That means the faithful are footing a phone bill that’s running about $2,160 per day. He’s been in jail at Reagan County since November 30. Give him say a week to get acquainted with the place, get money in his commissary account to purchase the cards so he’s been calling about 106 days, give or take. That’s $228,960.00 the faithful have forked out for his phone privileges and it doesn’t seem to be stopping. At this rate the faithful will all be broke and none of them will have money for their attorneys.

  243. There is something wrong with our prison system to allow him to run his IMMORAL and totally UNSPIRITUAL mess while behind bars. Just love to hear about some of those folks getting some BACKBONE and tossing HIM and his skinny little bones out of their lives FOR GOOD!

    Birth Date: 04/21/81
    Address : POBOX 401 (CENTENIAL PK), Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    03:24:00 03/20/11 Officer OTH

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-6a-518.2 IGNITION INTERLOCK VI BM 5DIS 583.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-6a-502. DUI-TWO+ PRIOR CONVIC 3F 5DIS 5000.00 [No Payments Made]

  245. Never have been able to figure out why the YFZ folks went in mass for the funeral of Merrill Jessops wife Fonetta but was there ever even a mention of the death and funeral for his favorite wife Barbara Jessop?

  246. Babs’ was kept quiet. They had a funeral at the Crick, but didn’t bury her there, they then took her back to Texas to bury her on the Ranch.

  247. was that ever documented anywhere? newspaper article or death certificate registered? maybe that is not required in Texas or the Crick?

  248. It is required in Texas. Thanks for reminding me to look into the regulations for burial.

  249. A subject I’d kept asking about, that witch. They do have a burial place on YFZ no idea if she’s buried.

  250. Death certificates are sealed to the general public for 75 years in Texas. They are accessible with certain information for direct relatives.

    As for Fonetta funeral that was a sham.
    All for National Geo cameras.

    That poor woman was put out on the streets of St. George and a grandson rescued her.

    There could be a book written around that National Geographic picture.

    As for Babs, Fonetta died with love ones caring for her, Babs did not. Sad.

  251. Did you mean the opposite? Wasnt Barbara at the ranch when she died?

  252. That is awful that the first and legal wife was put out on the streets! But maybe they were divorced and Barbara was the legal and real one eventually?

  253. I expected both Barbie and Merrill to play dead, trying to get out of paying the consequences of their actions.

  254. Fonetta was Merril’s legal wife when she died. His wife Ruth is still alive somewhere. She visited her son Raymond when he was in the Tom Green County jail. She was on a walker. Babs may have been the favorite wife, but she was never the legal one. She died at the ranch, was carted to Short Creek for a performance funeral and then instead of consecrating a grave site for her, they carted her elsewhere. Speculation is that she was brought back to Texas and buried on the Ranch, but confirmation of that has never been established. I have spoken to 2 different individuals who attended Bab’s funeral and both said the funeral program said nothing about her burial.

  255. Who are Merrils other 20 wives in the handshaking line? Most were newer than Carolyn Jessop left off with in Escape. I believe he only had 7 when she bolted. I thought he had a lot of wives in that book but it turns out that was just the calm before the storm when he REALLY started raking them in. wow.

  256. I bet you can’t find Barbara listed under SSDI. That is open records and updated quickly.

  257. How would you find her under SSDI. She probably never did anything to draw SS.

  258. Foneta was in the casket and I don’t see Ruth in the line. Babs appears to be the head of the line, then should be Tammy Barlow, Krazy Kathleen and Lorraine Steed. Those were the wives he had when Carolyn left. After that came Lydia Barlow, Sarah Draper, Edith Black, Ellen Grace Steed, Madeline Barlow, Bonita Blackmore (his claim to underage matrimony), Alice Barlow, Lucille Allred, Norma Hammon, Carol Zitting, Gladys Steed, Ellen Dockstader, Marie Holm, Sarah Barlow, and Susanna Roundy. Everyone after Lorraine Steed is a retread with the exception of his teeny bopper wife, Bonita who was illegally brought across the Canadian border and is in this country illegally.

  259. As far as Texas records I looked last night and both my old bffs are listed.

    However, so was this: Social Security Death Index
    Name: Barbara Steed Jessop
    SSN: 527-25-6365
    Last Residence:
    Born: 16 Jul 1953
    Died: 8 Dec 2009
    State (Year) SSN issued: Arizona (1972)
    Name: Barbara Steed Jessop
    Birth: 16 Jul 1953
    Death: 8 Dec 2009 – Texas
    Civil: Arizona

    All the same I have also found faked deaths, with all the papers in order.

  260. I doubt they could fool Johnson’s Funeral Home in San Angelo which is where the body was taken.

  261. Any body would do.

  262. I guess you think I’m daydreaming when I say it’s not so hard to do, and I’ve met dead people. I don’t care what you don’t know. *wink*

  263. You can build whole identities from cemeteries and death records. Baby cemeteries with no records are real good. But don’t think twice, it’s alright.

  264. Well, if the new and real Zion is in the YFZ Ranch then Babs has to be interred there. Anywheres else infers that the redemptiuon hasn’t really moved to Eldorado, Texas and the new ‘Land of Refuge’ must be somewheres else or the ‘Templebuilders’ no longer believe that ‘Warrants’ hunting lodge is consecrated soil.

  265. The Eldorado Success reported Barbara Jessop died December 8, 2009.

    Pronounced dead by Justice of the Peace Judge Jimmy Doyle at 7:15 p.m., natural causes. Dr. Lloyd Barlow in attendance.

  266. I posted two new documents to the Canadian Reference Case thread last night – the closing statement of the Amicus Curiae in the Canadian Reference Case, Part 1 & 2

  267. Granny, what I think is that you’re trying to stir crap up that doesn’t exist. I believe that people do what you say, but not that the FLDS did it in regards to Babs.

  268. CAJim, somewhere deep down the FLDS know that their remarriages aren’t real because when they signed their names to the Petition a lot signed with their new name and then put their legal last name in parenthesis.

  269. I’m with Anonymous @ 7:21 AM. Just because something is possible does not make it likely….and why go there?

  270. Anonymous, appreciate your informatioin about Barbara. Seemed strange to me that there was no mention of her death or funeral since she was quite a central figure and respected (or feared) and the mother of the last girl taken by CPS. And a tribute was written about her at one time by one of her children on their website. Why the secrecy about her do you think?

  271. I don’t believe that a Justice of the Peace would falsify a death certificate. That would put his job in jeopardy and place him at risk for prosecution for filing a false report. I have however treated one person who had assumed the identity of a dead former Medicaid beneficiary, and she was charging medical expenses to the dead woman’s Medicaid card.

  272. PT, saying“…hoodwinked for at least half your pathetic life.” was just my way of expressing how it ‘feels’ when you finally wake up and smell the coffee. ‘Pathetic’ just comes to mind through years of hindsight and personal analysis of past events even if you currently have a decent grip on the brass ring.

    Still, your ‘remarkable’ comment is deeply appreciated.

  273. Hey Granny, you been listenin’ to ol’ Bob Dylan again?

    It ain’t no use to sit and wonder why, babe
    It don’t matter, anyhow
    An’ it ain’t no use to sit and wonder why, babe
    If you don’t know by now
    When your rooster crows at the break of dawn
    Look out your window and I’ll be gone
    You’re the reason I’m trav’lin’ on
    Don’t think twice, it’s all right.

  274. Personally, I’d like to move on… past Barbara’s life and death.

  275. Maybe with all your various life experiences, knowledge of history and geneology, travels far and wide, you should write murder mysteries, Granny. They would probably be really fascinating.

  276. ET, you ARE a woman of remarkable intelligence and strength ! We are very lucky to have you here to provide your insights.

  277. awww shucks… thanks! 😳 et tu

  278. Thanks ET.

    And Betty, I began with fiction, but all my stuff in later decades has all been on professional and other printings. I know you meant to be pejorative, it’s just your way.

  279. Granny, I was actually being serious and trying to say something positive to you. Apparently that did not work.

    If you want to decide that I’m out to get you,rather than considering the possibility that late night, wild eyed imaginings about body swapping and faked death certificates do not elevate the conversation here, then there’s nothing I can do about that. But I feel I have a moral responsibility to say when I feel that the standards that this site is aspiring to are being lowered. You are free to ignore my opinion if you like. I occasionally express displeasure with what Stamp says, and he doesn’t seem to have any problem at all ignoring me. I’m not shy, I’ve disagreed here with Ron in Houston, TBM and Boots, just to name a few.

    We have lots of people lurking on this site, and some commenting now and then, who are either from the Creek or have recently left. There are also LE and government types lurking from time to time. I think that sticking to the facts will be most likely to keep them hanging around. And since that’s really what we are about – getting out the truth in an effort to help those who are suffering from this cult and polygamy – I think keeping them around is important.

  280. Here here for ET!

    yehaa too. And Carolyn. et al. And other folks who have heart!

  281. Hey Betty, I read this blog as often as I can but I do not fit into any of the groups you described above who “lurk” here. Concern for the abused and cover up of the same, the false leader who has a huge following, and outright disregard for the laws of this land keep me interested in what happens to the flds people. I also watched Big Love and enjoyed the drama which gave us a glimpse into a secretive people. I also watch all I can about the Amish, the Hutterites and other sects. It is fascinating to me, but also very very sad.

  282. Anonymous the Elder –
    What did you observe among the Amish and Hutterites ? I am curious.

  283. Just lost all that I had typed here….starting over.

  284. I used to think that the Amish were the strictest of relions until I discovered the Hutterites. Both of these groups are separatists but the Hutterites actually live in colonies and own nothing individually. They have distinct dress characteristics with no regard for fashion at all. The Amish have their strict clothing requirements, some not even using buttons or zippers, but they are well made outfits. The Hutterites clothing is not solemn but it is just for covering and missmatched, no style. There is so much emphasis in women covering their heads in both groups. What a contrast with the FLDS who have these amazingly complex hairdos. Working together and helping members of their communities is a comman denominator. We tend to do our own thing around here, occasionally helping a neighbor. And the work ethic in both these groups is so strong, even among the children. But freedom for these groups? Absent. And that is sad. I have not heard of these groups having the disregard for the law like the FLDS havbe shown.

  285. I might add that I have never personally known an Amish family, but I do know some Hutterites and greatly respect them. They were not born into their colony (which is unusual I think) but embraced them due to their beliefs and seeking to live a devout and simpflied life. What causes people to seek out separate groups like this is interesting to me. Perhaps the moral decay so obvious in the world today? But giving up personal liberty and freedom is too great a price – at least for me.

  286. very interesting, thank you !

  287. Interesting perspective, older anon. Thanks.

  288. That’s why so many men are willing to repent from afar; it’s a helluva lot easier than taking charge of your life and those you’re supposedly responsible for.


    How do you even know HOW to take charge of your own life, if from birth you have been trained to deny your own personality and replace it with groupthink under a despot.

  289. Deleted a few childish posts.


  290. How do you even know HOW to take charge of your own life, if from birth you have been trained to deny your own personality and replace it with groupthink under a despot.

    It is interesting that in Christianity we are often urged to live selfless lives that strive to put others before ourselves. That is noble and very difficult. But to deny our very personalities while blindly following and obeying a leader without question, although it may sound pious and religious, is it not actually rebelling against the One who made us? The groupthink thing is a mystery to me. Im surprised there hasnt been a major rebellion within the FLDS and a serious “prophet removal service” (is there such a thing?)

  291. Had that been the response after the diaries of Jeffs surfaced, I wonder if the public would see the group differently. Kind of like how the Catholic Church has handled its internal scandals. (Although the coverup had to be addressed and finally that is happening, too)

  292. Anonymous the Elder – apparently Prophets in the FLDS are appointed for life and they cannot be removed.

  293. Today in History – On 22 Mar 1882, Congress outlawed polygamy.

  294. The FLDS Closing Statement for the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy

  295. Affidavit of Alina Darger for the Canadian Reference Case on polygamy

  296. An article from Medscape on the use of potassium iodide

  297. sorry – here is the link

  298. @Anon E Mouse and an older anonymous: I tried to post this earlier but the site wouldn’t let me… so maybe it was a sign I should scrap it. Nah… here goes.

    How do you even know HOW to take charge of your own life, if from birth you have been trained to deny your own personality and replace it with groupthink under a despot.

    Strong belief (and mind control) is extremely difficult to dislodge and/or change. It basically comes down to one seemingly simple but often very hard thing to do: just change your mind.

    I know I can’t adequately address this; it’s really a very individual thing since the only other way is to go along with a group break-away that creates a schism… which of course has happened over and over again since Joseph Smith and is just another version of the same.

    The way I did it was through self-talk… changing my own mind… just believing I COULD. Otherwise I would have killed myself. It was a somewhat gradual process, but what I kept foremost in my mind was this mantra: if it can be done (or if so-and-so that I respect) can do it SO CAN I. If you’ve ever read the children’s classic, “The Little Engine That Could” it’s similar to that.

    And I guess I’d have to thank my mother for her great love of musicals back in the day. She would often sing a song around the house from “Annie Get Your Gun” … ♪♫ Anything you can do I can do better,/ I can do anything better than you. ♪♫ She had always instilled a great deal of faith in myself and my abilities. Her own story is one of amazing perseverance.

    So what it comes down to is each individual has to find something within themselves that will give them the courage to cut the ties that bind; and it works best if you believe you have a compelling reason. The way I characterized it for myself was I must cut off my roots and transplant.

    All that said, I will freely admit that unlike most Warrenites today, I had advantages, some work-life experience, and resources available to me that I took extreme, even selfish advantage of… and something I couldn’t own back then but I can now: guts and a burgeoning streak of feminism.

    The individual has to ultimately find a formula deep within, or it just won’t happen.

    ♪♫ I’m gonna wash that man right out of my hair… ♪♫ Ahhh… the memories of my mother’s beloved musicals. Won’t find that in Short Creek or YFZ any more.

  299. Is it necessary for some to deny reality in order to post here, lest one be bullied?

  300. Toad, I created a link to an article on potassium iodide for you above –

  301. My mother used to sing those songs, too, ET. Thanks for the memory!

    And your description of self change makes sense, also. The human brain learns by developing theories about the reality it perceives. So we all tell ourselves stories about what we have experienced. Some stories are more useful than others and some are down right toxic. But most can be rewritten and new ones can be learned.

  302. You’ve probably all seen this, but I thought it was funny.

  303. Ooops. Forgot the link.

  304. Too funny! If there is a law or rule to be broken, they’ll find it!

  305. my daughter, from our conversations, seems to agree with the canadian civil liberties union. Which is: don’t criminalize adult sexual behavior, use other laws to prosecute child abuse…

    So I thought that my husband might also agree. But he disagreed saying that this type of cohabitation purports to be a marital relationship and marital relationships have a variety of rights and responsibilities that are defined by the legal entity (state, country), so it is not a matter of let adults have consenting adult relationships. To take the canadian civil liberty’s argument to it’s full logical conclusion would be that the state has no vested interest in regulating any marriage. (Is that Rebekah or Becky or ET’s comment, can’t remember which).

    He kind of surprised me because I thought he would agree with my daughter ….

    I would be disappointed but not ENTIRELY surprised if the Canadian judge rules along the lines of the Canadian civil liberties union.

    When is the judge expected to rule?
    When do Dee’s 20 day deadline to resolve UEP issues end?

  306. HHG, I agree with you about the marriage thing, if it were just cohabitation it would be a different story.

    As for Dee’s 20 days, I’m not sure. The Utah Supreme Court is set to rule on whether or not the Doctrine of Laches is binding by Utah law soon. The briefs by the parties are due on Friday. I expect they have had clerks and assistants also doing briefing on the law.

    As to what happens if the Utah Supreme Court rules Laches is binding in Utah, I’m not sure. My best guess is that someone would have to take that decision before a Federal Court to test it. That would involve an entirely new case before Federal Court.

  307. E. Texas–I love you and I soooo love your wisdom and your are so strong…love it!!!

  308. The problem with religious polygyny is that it is coercive – usually either the woman entering the relationship is coerced, or the senior wife / wives are coerced into participating. What everyone seems to forget is the rights of the senior wives in the polygynous relationship. They usually are not consulted for their consent. Decriminalizing polygamy does nothing to protect the rights of the senior wives, and there is no published evidence that decriminalization increases the likelihood of reporting abuse. Many monogamous couples don’t report abuse, and members of closed societies and cults which don’t engage in coercive polygyny don’t report abuse either despite the fact that their activities don’t represent criminal behavior.

  309. PT said: “My best guess is that someone would have to take that decision before a Federal Court to test it. That would involve an entirely new case before Federal Court.”

    don tinfoil hat

    Let’s drag it out to the nth degree. Conspiracy abounds:!: 😈

    doff tinfoil hat

  310. S
    I agree with you totally, but one COULD argue that keeping criminalized does nothing to help the senior wife either?

    I think one of the fundamental issues that is difficult to grapple with is coercive groups, particularly those claiming rights under a religious umbrella. Here I think the only solution is to hobble the home education movement by placing stricter oversight and barriers – such as a need to show up at a neutral central (to city or county or state) and pass standardized age appropriate exams or to lose the privilege of home schooling.

  311. It seems that once they buy into the fairytale, it leaves them vulnerable to all sorts of abuse and neglect.

    There isnt a system for caring for them in event of divorce or as we have seen, medical needs. You just become a slave to the weird system and are subject to whatever whims someone else has.

    Its not all about a party in the bedroom.

  312. Senior wives who are wealthy can afford an attorney to initiate a divorce action if they don’t like their new polygamous marriage. Senior wives who are poor, uneducated, lack work skills, and have several dependent children cannot exit the polygynous relationship that easily and they are therefore vulnerable to coercion. I have seen many Muslim women threatened by their husbands with the prospect of a second wife being brought into the relationship – and the men were deterred from doing so when the senior, legal wife threatened to report the man to the authorities – and I am happy to report that I was the one who told the women to do so. A successful intervention.

  313. Most men who are “inspired” to enter religion based polygamous marriages give little thought to the financial and emotional needs of the first wife and her children. I have seen more than my share of semi abandoned Muslim women and their children on welfare and Medicaid. These men barely even recognized their children when they saw them in my clinic.

  314. I dont know why NOW isnt all over this. Guess they have their own agenda they are following. Heard they wouldnt even defend Sarah Palin from Bill Maher’s sexist comment.

  315. BIB, I was awakened when the A bomb test lit up the night that’s maybe closer to a need for KI for radiation than most folks here are likely to need, but thanks.

    #2–I don’t need any comments suggesting that I cut that part of my life and reality either or write it up as fiction.

  316. I don’t know why NOW is not involved either. One of the former presidents of the organization was in a polyamorous relationship, maybe that is why they are not involved ?

  317. Caught ignoring the slur, NOW changed direction, but not before pointing out one of their big focuses is “reproductive rights”


    The National Organization for Women finally stepped up Tuesday to slam Bill Maher for calling Sarah Palin a female vulgarism after first declining to comment on the matter.

    A NOW rep told early Tuesday it was a “known fact” that NOW does not correspond with FOX News after being contacted for comment regarding Bill Maher’s statement on his HBO show Friday that Sarah Palin was a “dumb tw*t.” But NOW communications director Lisa Bennett changed the organization’s tune later in the day, issuing a statement published on, saying:“Listen, supposedly progressive men (ok, and women, too): Cut the crap! Stop degrading women with whom you disagree and/or don’t like by using female body terms or other gender-associated slurs.”

    She also chastised the press for bothering NOW with questions about derogatory language toward women
    “You’re trying to take up our time getting us to defend your friend, Sarah Palin.

    If you keep us busy defending her, we have less time to defend women’s bodies from the onslaught of reproductive rights attacks and other threats to our freedom, safety, livelihood, etc,” wrote Bennett. “Sorry, but we can’t defend Palin or even Hillary Clinton from every sexist insult hurled at them in the media.

    That task would be impossible, and it would consume us. You know this would not be a productive way to fight for women’s equal rights, which is why you want us stuck in this morass.”

    Other women’s organizations contacted by on Tuesday did not have such reservations.

    Read more:

  318. RIP

    Elizabeth Taylor

  319. Granny, no one here seems to be ignoring reality. Making comments about body switching is more ignoring reality. The woman is dead, buried and roasting in Hell. Let’s move on.

    I agree Stamp, ROP Liz.

  320. I gave up on NOW thirty years ago and I’m a dyed in the wool liberal and feminist. Real equality means taking responsibility for your self and your sex. The event that got me was a local chapter meeting that was trying to get a legislation proposed that basically made it impossible for a man to defend a rape case. The women were saying no woman EVER makes false rape accusations! Then I got the next magazine in the mail and it was recommending automatic rulings in favor of women in divorce and custody case. So, basically, you can tell who is good or evil by checking their plumbing? No, equality means equal responsibility and accountability along with equal treatment and opportunity. And then later they were over run with the whole concept that if you are a wife and mother, you have betrayed the cause, when I thought it was all about allowing women to chose what they want in life.

  321. Right! Plumbing has nothing to do with equality.

  322. Leroy Jessop has appealed the 3rd Court of Appeals affirming that he isn’t indigent. He’s also got a new attorney. Wouldn’t the fact that he’s able to hire a new attorney show that the man isn’t without resources?

  323. Granny, no one is denying the experiences of your past. We are just thinking that they have nothing whatsoever to do with Barbara Jessop. It’s really cruel to suggest that someone swapped bodies to evade prosecution if you have no proof or even the slightest suggestion of proof, especially when people who might have known her and cared about her might read that stuff.

  324. PT I hardly expected that but go ahead and deny that has happened or could happen. It’s alright, doesn’t reflect upon ME. I still think the odds could possibly be 50:50, and know for a fact that kind of performance can be and has been reality. With those crooks the likelihood fits right in.

  325. To add to what Betty said, Barbara wasn’t being prosecuted and to my knowledge there were no plans to prosecute her in the future. The FLDS have no need to say she died when she didn’t. It’s just not based in fact.

  326. PT

    The question of indigency on appeal the question is whether you can pay for the record. In some cases the cost of the court reporter’s record and exceed the attorney’s fees.

    A defendant or their family can retain a lawyer and still be found indigent. Right now how much Jessop paid for a lawyer is not relevant. The record was made in the trial court and the Court of Criminal Appeals will base it’s decision on that record and the law.

    I’d give Jessop negative odds of succeeding if I could. Given the record and the language of the 3rd COA, he’s wasting his time.

  327. But Ron… even without donning a tinfoil hat… I think if you take into consideration the long legal history of all things FLDS, dragging things out interminably – otherwise known as stonewalling – is a major strategy, no matter what the predictable outcome.

    Just saying….

  328. So living in a communal lifestyle where you give everything you own to the cult – now means Leroy Jessop has nothing and therefore wants the state to pay for his appeal. Whereas WSJ has all the money in the world to pay for his attorneys and appeals because he can dip into the very fund that Leroy contributed to.

  329. That sums it up nicely, watergirl.

  330. watergirl,

    my thoughts exactly!

  331. Vaguely related to some of this morning’s discussion, I’m sharing a Forbes story I enjoyed reading. Hopefully not too far off topic, it did include one mention of ‘FLDS.’

    This Just in for Women’s History Month: God Had a Wife

  332. E Texas

    I actually wonder how much the record is going to cost. Most folks would do a cost benefit analysis. If you’re spending $20K on attorney’s fees and the record only costs $10K then it’s obviously a loser.

    I wouldn’t think you’d want to stonewall when you’re in the Big House. You’d want to get the record if you could and try to get your appeal done so if it’s successful you may get out.

    My wholly wild arsed guess is that the record is more than attorney’s fees on appeal and that the FLDS hope they can save a few bucks to pay for the defense of the chosen one.

  333. I can’t say myself what’s been discussed or hasn’t in Schleicher County Grand Jury.

  334. Well then, Ron, my personal ‘wholly wild arsed guess’ is that it just might be true that these guys are willing to pay any damn amount of time and money to stay in that Big House. It wouldn’t be too far-fetched to think that these guys might be enjoying their ‘vacation’ from the ‘wild arsed’ insanity they had to endure from Warren. A reprieve!

    No… I do know what you’re saying and I’m just spinning a little devil’s advocate off the top of my head.

  335. Thanks for the input Ron, you’ve been missed around here. Any chance you can come out for the fun on the 30th and 31st?

  336. Ron, in Leroy’s Motion, he specifically requested that the county pick up the tab for his attorney and Mr. Hurley said in his Motion to the 3rd Court of Appeals that he was doing the work “pro bono”. Leroy was listed as “pro se”.

  337. I know I know I dream this stuff up late night and should go back to writing fiction and put it into that form.

  338. The women were saying no woman EVER makes false rape accusations!


    I don’t see how anybody can say that with a straight face – there have been many rape accusations that have been discredited.

    A close friend of mine was falsely accused of rape. His accuser did it out of spite when he broke up with her. Luckily her charge was so ridiculous it was easily disproved, but my friend was treated as guilty until proven innocent by law enforcement.

  339. Gotta run, gotta laugh. OK I’ll share the first dead person I re-met after his death. One wife got the insurance for her and the kids, another wife got the dead husband. I think there was a 3rd wife but she hadn’t made any trouble.

  340. Someone needs to update the wiki definition of FLDS. As little as I know this needs some work:

    Many press accounts[10][11][12][13] have suggested that Merril Jessop, who has been leading the Eldorado, Texas compound,[14] is the de facto leader of the church.

    Leroy S. Johnson (died aged 98), 1954–1986
    Rulon T. Jeffs (died aged 93), 1986–2002
    Warren S. Jeffs (living), 2002–c. 2007?; February 2011–present (jailed in 2007)[13]
    William E. Jessop, 2007–2010 (suspected leader)[13]
    Merril Jessop, 2007–Feb 2011[39] (de-facto leader)[13][discuss]
    Wendell L. Nielsen, 2010–January 28, 2011 (President of the church’s corporate entity)[13][40][41][discuss]

  341. Dont know why we are talking about dead people and their antics – but I saw some news in Utah about a former service guy who was going to trial for molestation.

    He killed a homeless guy, and burned him in a trailer outside of Vegas.

    Then he went home to the town next to Shortcreek, in Hurricane. His daughters, molestation victims too, turned him in when the youngest daughter became his latest target.

    Oh yeah, the wife collected insurance money too.

    He offed himself in jail, as an FYI for those who might think this is a cool thing to do.

  342. That Wikipedia entry needs some serious updating !

  343. PT

    Missed the part about the attorney request. Either way it all goes back to the trial court proceeding where the evidence was pretty clear the guy was perhaps being more than a bit dishonest.

  344. Any Big Love aficionados here?

    “I loved “Big Love,” from the moment it debuted on HBO in 2006. I blogged about the show many times over the years, and what I believed to be its politically charged message.

    The “Big Love” finale aired on Sunday night.”

  345. Anonymous @ 2:59 Are you saying that you are the person that blogs at the above site?

  346. I enjoyed watching Big Love also and hated to see it come to an end.

  347. I think that the plot of “Big Love” became increasingly unbelievable over the past two years, hence its cancellation. Now we have the Brown Family on TLC – and they seem to be focused on making a political statement or to get themselves arrested for polygamy – and thus far they have not been too successful with either goal…

  348. RiH, he wanted to pick his appellate attorney and then make the county pay for it. That was also the hearing where Sally Jeffs got up on the stand and lied her butt off. Why they don’t charge that woman with something is beyond me. I mean if nothing else, charge her with never getting unibrow’s eyebrows waxed.

  349. Man charged with polygamy


    Don’t leave home in SLC without taking your insulin if you’re diabetic

  351. PT

    Perjury is very common and very infrequently prosecuted. Fortunately many times it’s pretty clear when someone is lying. Judge Walther was the determiner of credibility and she found Jessop not credible. The standard on any appeal would be “abuse of discretion” and Jessop simply doesn’t have any facts that support him and many that argue against him.

    Like I said, if I could give negative odds I probably would.

  352. I’ve never watched Big Love. Should I have?

  353. You can get old seasons through Netflix.

  354. Uncle Thread, the first three years are ok – the last two are not believable, poor plot.

  355. Anonymous @ 3:42

    No I am not the blogger, just the messenger.

    Anonymous @ 2:59

  356. Thank you for your reply Anonymous @ 6:25 I just now noticed the quotation marks. And I was in such a hurry I didn’t sign my name but will with this post.

    I really enjoyed the series Big Love. Uncle Thread if you watch 1-3 you’ll want to watch 4&5. Sometimes it’s those little details that show up that makes it all more interesting. jmo

  357. Colorado City is about to receive 6.9 Million dollars from the State for airport improvements.

    Costco, stalk up on the salmon!

  358. I didn’t realize that private airstrips could get state money.

  359. I don’t get that either, PT. Everyone knows there doesn’t exist any civic infrastructure, it’s all favoritism and private FLDS ripoffs, even water, power, the fire dept and cops.

  360. Well, maybe y’all didn’t catch this old 2006 Suzan Mazur story. Some of it is water under the bridge now. But basically, the Feds built that airport.

  361. I know what airport it is but what name is it in, whose?

  362. So it cost 3 million to build the thing and they are about to get 6.9 million for improvements; more than twice what it cost to build it in the first place?

    What are the improvements, building 2 more entire airports?

  363. Not sure Granny, all I know is that it is behind a locked gate.

  364. Last Saturday, I took off from the Colorado City airport, and the active runway has tall weeds growing through cracks in the active runway. As the pilot was taxiing, I initially thought the weeds off the side of the runway needed mowing, but then I realized the weeds weren’t off the side of the runway; they were on the runway. I hope they remove the weeds and seal the cracks in the active runway with this 6.9 million.

  365. Mike Watkiss is saying that Warren’s sent out new letters. Wonder what these are about.

  366. Cement,
    Do you have a plane? or is there a airline who will fly to CC?

  367. RE Big Love
    Just finished watching the second to last season, courtesy of Netflix. The beginning is bizarre, I got a kick out of the beginning in earlier seasons, with the allusions to stepping through the veil.
    Anyway, the plot just got weird, and the episodes felt rushed, like the producers were trying to cram 12-13 episodes into the 9 episode season.
    In regard to Sister Wives, I am aquainted with Kody and Christine, and I am disgusted by their complete disregard for their children, putting them into the public eye for ridicule.

  368. What part of criminal do those people not understand they’re exposing their children to, eh?

  369. Sixty-five public airports submitted 840 projects for consideration worth $ 1.26 B over the five-year program period. These projects represent all Federal and State funding desires on the part of the airport sponsors. The ACIP programs $977.7 M over the five-year program period. This is an approximately 30% increase from the previous year’s program. This increase is due to economic changes resulting in additional local matching fund availability over the last year.

    Colorado City pages 19 & 20
    Construction cost.

    The city has to contribute $213,497.

    It looks like a major face lift.

  370. long time gone – given that you know Cody and Christine, do you think the series correctly portrays the life and interactions of the Browns – or do you think they are playing it up for the camera ?

  371. Here’s a video of the awards ceremony where polygamy survivor Elizabeth Smart received award. Most of Elizabeth’s comments were edited out, except for a portion about the Radkids organization.

  372. Do the Browns go to church?

  373. I dunno, sounds like the state money is chasing good money after bad. The weeds are from deferred maintenance, a bubba with roundup would have taken care of it.

    Oh wait, the bubbas are locked up in a Texas prison.

  374. Stamp how many FLDS construction companies are registered with the State of AZ to bid on this airport job?

  375. I dunno, I just figure they will all do the work for free and send the money to Warrens attorney.

    Gotta feed that beast!

  376. Perjury isnt always let go, BTW.

    Take this case:

    “Baseball’s all-time home run leader, who played his last game in 2007, is charged with five felonies for allegedly lying to the federal grand jury that investigated steroid dealing at the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative in Burlingame.”

    Read more:

  377. I neither own a plane or have a license. A friend flew me and family around the mountains on a little sight-seeing. Children loved it.

  378. cement

    I love to fly too – but it begs the question of what kind of use and maintanence this airport has gotten?

    Didnt the local area just get a huge 100 million airport?

  379. local airport 35 miles from the creek

  380. most towns of that size don’t have an airport, but depend upon county air ports or near by larger towns. With only 10,000 people, half of whom are children, wtf do they need an airport for, let alone one built with tax payer’s $$? Whole thing sounds extremely fishy to me.

  381. Out in TX hill country there are airstrips all over, but MUNICIPAL are usually municipal. Not privately owned while taxpayer funded.

    Something was wrong there from the beginning. Stinks worse.

  382. Where is your evidence, Granny? I would appreciate your backing up such slanderous statements such as this, if you don’t mind.

  383. I’m certainly not saying I believe this, and the source is highly questionable, but about the CC airport, I read this a while back. Certainly interesting reading.

  384. Found this one interesting too.

  385. Heard Alvin Barlow demanded interet not to be used in Colorado city/surrounding areas until futher notice and everyone with internet based business to get into another profession. Is there any truth to this or just complete rumour? I heard it from Dan Barlows grandson who is currently not residing in the area. Please anybody let me know if this is true or not.

    Much appreciated!

  386. I read the 1st article that Thrid Cousin posted…abt the airport [and other] grants for CC….. Question—does the gov’t ever check up to see if the so-called ‘improvements’ were done or how the money was used? Like the $$$ for road and neighborhood improvemnts one? So, the 6.9M they are gettig for this rarely used, locked up, ‘public’ airport, could be goung straight to WSJ, for all we know. Local kids can be sent to the airstrip to pull a few weeds and spruce it up [for no wages, of course!] and voila! Improvements with 6.79999M left over!

  387. Please folks, don’t make any negative comments directed at other posters. It is not their post but your negative comments that are annoying and obnoxious. FLDS Admin is the keeper of the blog. I am sure he/she/they will chime in when they feel it is warrented.

  388. Ariel said:…interet not to be used in Colorado city/surrounding areas until futher notice…

    I has asked this some time back, and dont remember seeing an answer– wasnt there, at one time, a group of men who drove around looking for TV antennae and satellite dishes and other signs of outside contact and reporting this info back to WSJ? I seem to remember hearing or reading this.

  389. cement, was the gate at the airport locked when you were there? If so how did you guys get in?

    to anyone who knows, are municipal airports generally open to the public and not locked? Who put the lock on the gate?

  390. The gate was locked at the airport when I went out there to look around.

  391. In regard to question on fraud on federal grants – found this website to report fraud:

  392. sorry sorry sorry – please disregard previous post from watergirl. I should have known better given my brother-in-law is a state inspector general.

    here is the site for reporting fraud to federal government:

  393. government fraud awareness handbook:


    Thats the only credible source I could find that talks about banning outside information. No mention of anything recent or internet. But mc1199 I remember hearing something similar as well. Hopefully we’ll know fact from fiction soon!

    Dan Barlows grandson (whom I’m engaged to) says that he took a tour on a leer jet that was property of a FLDS bishop at the Colorado City Airport. Of course the money for that waste came from the working people’s tithing. I wonder if any church head honchos are ashamed of the heardships they bring on their own people. But I suppose just about every governing body has had to face that question…

  395. watergirl,

    Asking someone to back up their statements with fact is not bickering. It’s a reasonable request.

  396. Ariel,
    Mazel tov on your engagement !

  397. Aye, mazel tov!

  398. I like flying, and even flying parachutes. 😉

  399. And talk to dead people.

  400. Thank you so much!

    He’s not even kinda FLDS and hates any mention of it, got out of there when he was aobut 16. Can’t say I blame him, but it’s hard to keep tip-toeing around any mention of family or past. Maybe I’ll show him some of ET’s posts…very helpful.

    I’m impressed with this whole thread actually. Rather mature.

  401. So…does he consider himself one of the “lost boys” because he “got out of there?” Or is he of a different mindset?

  402. *sigh* It’s so complicated. He grew up with the lost boys but despises them now because he thinks they are using their story for “pity” (once again, ET’s posts come to mind…)

    It’s an extremely long story and I wouldn’t want to bore all you wonderful people to death.

    But basically his dad and grandfather, Curtis and Dan Barlow were exed by Jeffs in 2004 I think it was. Not the first time Jeffs has excommunicated one of his mayors! This was a pretty big deal, google it, and you’ll find tons of references. They went to live in a town about 70 miles away and had to leave their wives and children behind. Curtis came back and got three of his eldest sons. Chris, my fiance was one and thats how he got out.

  403. Super Ariel…glad he got some of his boys out…most don’t get to do that..

    and…no…you will not bore us/me…in fact..I love it…

    Congrats on your engagement…do you mind if I ask how old is your young fella???

  404. He’s 21.

    I’m thankful for his father bringing him out otherwise I wouldn’t have met him. Unfortunately, his father still holds on to the beliefs of the FLDS causing a huge rift between father and son. Now whenever I mention my Dad and family he gets all quiet and sad. I hope he can patch things up, but his father remains rather ignorant….even going so far as calling Chris “infected” by the outside world.

    I don’t care which religion you want to practice, but be nice to your kids! They are the only ones ya got.

  405. Correct me if I am wrong – wasn’t this airport in Colorado City supposedly built to accommodate air traffic for official school district business – or was it that a plane was funded by the state for purposes of enabling travel on official school district business ?

  406. I remember something of the sort, S. That it was costing the state more for them to drive that far and be compensated for time away from work, etc. Not sure, my memory is fuzzy on this one.

  407. Ariel,

    I’m happy to hear any first person stories. It improves our understanding of the situation.

  408. The plane was purchased with school district money, which is one reason why the state took it over for mismanagement. I’m not sure if the airport was a package deal or not.

    Ariel, I’d love to meet your Chris. He sounds like he has his head on straight. His grandfather, Dan Barlow, got let back in. Not sure when, but at least before November 2010 because he signed the proclamation to the President. Whether he thinks of himself as a “lost boy” or not, it’s sad that he’s lost his family. I don’t really think the boys are doing it for pity, I think they are doing it so that the story of what is going on in the FLDS communities can get out. I for one am glad that they’ve told their story and that others have also told stories about what goes on.

  409. I think the Lost Boys aren’t trying to be “lost”
    I think that they are struggling emotionally with their new environment, and the liberties/freedoms they encounter in their new setting.

  410. PT, how do you know he signed it? have the signatures been posted somewhere? Also, the excommunication thread says he’s been kicked out again in the recent exings.

  411. What school district needs a plane??? Mine certainly wasn’t that lucky!

    Thanks Betty, I’ve got plenty more about him too! Lol.

    Like the fact that he was forced to pay his family’s waaaay overdue electricity bills. If you’re in good standing with the church you can apparently build your debt up in utilities quite high because you’re in faith that you’ll pay it back. Don’t forget, everything from the police force to power companies out there are loyal to the church and it’s prophet. When his father fell out of favor, the power was shut off and Chris had to pay off the bills to keep his family in decent living conditions.

    I’m mad at the FLDS taking away my mans childhood. I’m mad that they scared the crap out of him so badly that it wasn’t until recently he realized he wasn’t dammed to hell. I’m mad he can’t talk about his family with pride. And so much more.

    I guess I’m just on here because I want to know I’m not alone in my messed up little feelings.

  412. Dear PT and S. Couldn’t agree more with your views on the lost boys….And thanks for the support!

  413. When an ex FLDS member leaves their native environment which clearly places many restrictions on behavior, and then enters open society which places few restrictions on behavior, it is difficult to make an adjustment to the lack of regulation…

  414. Bless you, Ariel. That young man is lucky to have you. And yes, you have every right to be angry; sorry about his Dad, that is very sad. however, Dad is not going to change, but Chris can look forward, not back and be proud of the progress he has made.

  415. Warren is going to claim God directed AZ to do these airport upgrades around the state. If you think about it, every penny will go to the church and it will all be nice and legal.

    Colorado City will hire FLDS owned construction companies. The Construction company will spend most of the money on parts and labor.

    Parts = Mostly Cement and Concrete mixed at the FLDS owned Cement mixing plant. The rest will be spent at NewEra, if it is still in the FLDS hands and not Wendell Neilson. They just happen to make parts for airplanes and, likely, airports as well. Even if Wendell still owns it, he probably would tithe it anyway like most of the other loyal apostates. Most of this money will go straight to the Prophet.

    Labor = Since all the employees will be FLDS, most of this money will go straight to the prophet.

    Profit = What’s not spent on Parts and Labor will be Profit for the company. Profit goes to Prophet.

    All parties involved will diligently adhere to this plan in hopes that they are not the next to be Exed. The prophet gets his legal bills paid and them some and they get a pretty bitching airport on the side.

    Results: the FLDS wins again.

  416. Kody and Christine, from what I saw, were the 2 that were in the media before the Sister wives show ever happened. I had never met the rest of the family, but Christine seems the same on screen and off, Kody is definitly a notch or two more effulgent.

  417. FishLake, I’ve seen the signatures and no they aren’t posted anywhere that I know of. They probably won’t be since they contain the names of children. Dan could have been exed again, I don’t know for certain, all I know is that sometime prior to November 1 he was restored (or whatever that term is).

    Ariel, who is Chris’ grandmother? Also, was his mother reassigned when his father was kicked out? I know that some Barlow’s weren’t, but all of Dan’s wives were reassigned and most have been reassigned a 2nd time due to their new husband losing his priesthood and being kicked out.

  418. I have heard stories from CP folks reporting the late night airdrops, followed by a line of cars from CC to the airport.
    Also, back in the late 80′ a Barlow kid( I think one of Trumans boys) was arrested in St. George for pessession with intent to sell, and he told the cops his dad was his supplier. Always wondered how some of those men lived so high on the hog

  419. I’ve heard those same stories LTG. Makes you wonder.

  420. Ariel:
    Being a guy who left willingly, I have found it quite a healing act to tell my story to those I am close to. Only a fraction of people whom I spend significant time with know my whole story, and I still find myself remembering things that I considered normal growing up stuff that shock people, and it really affects me, and helps me be more introspective. I have a lot of my childhood that I simply do not remember, like the memory has been wiped away, or is still deeply supressed.
    Good luck and blessings to you and your fiance

  421. How sad LTG–every child deserves to be a child.

  422. LTG, you speak my language. I experience the same as you say, although I’m far less likely to censor who hears what I have to say anymore. I used to tell things to people more indiscriminately when I wanted good friends, and it was very healing. But I found that quite often it felt like I was being “collected” and like most collections, put on the shelf and ignored. Now I read people much better and find that the telling – even indiscriminately – is a great filter. Sifts out the flakes and fakes.

    Yes, lots of memories are lost to me too… some I’m grateful to not recall.

  423. Congratulations Ariel on your betrothal… and welcome aboard. I’m truly looking forward to hearing more from you.

  424. I’m not sure who Chris’ grandmother is. Strangely Curtis Barlow (Chris’ father) was allowed his wife back. They now live in a town about seventy miles away continuing to practice the FLDS faith.

    long time gone, thank you so much for your input. Maybe I just have to accept that he doesn’t like talking about it because, like you, he has forgotten.

    Part of me doesn’t think that’s the case though just because his reactions are strongly negative towards it. As the saying goes “The opposite of love isn’t hate. It’s indifference. Because if you hate, you still care”

    I wish so badly I could get him on here and open up. Guess I’ll talk to him about it tonight…..Thanks guys…

  425. Ariel,
    The first person I told certain things to was my wife, though I didn’t open up till a year or two into our marriage. Give it time,
    sounds like his wounds are still quite fresh

  426. LTG perhaps his father’s attitude keeps the wounds fresh. He may not know how he feels, because to deny his father’s reality is to not-love, or to give in to hate, or lost somewhere in between?

  427. Gt
    I would concur, He still loves his Dad, but cannot understand
    why his dad considers him”infected”. His dad, is also a victim of his own upbringing, and likely will never depart from his beliefs, because the alternatives are more frightening to him

  428. speaking of Chris. He’s my cousin, and his grandfather isn’t Dan, it’s Alma. easy to mistake, Alma’s family isn’t one of the larger Barlow families. when I first left I went and talked to him, happy that he can find a girl who loves him, congrats! Chris’s grandmother is Sandra Meldrum, she’s my dad’s “other mother”, and yeah it could be pretty easy to figure out who I am now. oh well. I knew Curtis a little growing up, and I was never able to figure out his family’s dynamic. He didn’t seem like the nicest guy ever. but I usually tended to mind my own business as well, so yeah. I wish the best for Chris and all the kids who leave there. we all need support, whether we’re willing to admit it or not. Depression can come on really easily, and when you least expect it. and that can lead to drug and alcohol abuse. I’ve really been staying away from those kinds of influences as much as possible, but doing that means not associating with a lot of the other “cricker” kids. which for me, leads to loneliness and depression. it’s compounded by the fact that most kids don’t have any social skills to speak of, I know I don’t, although I’ve been working on it a lot lately. It really sucks. Last week I kind of had a bit of an angry spell, I was talking to a therapist (and you don’t know how much that helps) about having to work at a young age, and I kinda snapped when I got home, it hit me that these kids, 15, 16 years old, working for poor wages, 8-10, sometimes 12 hours a day on construction sites, was just not f**ing right, or fair. and I was thinking “how could you do that to someone?” and I felt some righteous indignation about that. somewhat of an epiphany, and it’s something that a lot of people have to realize. that you were cheated out of a childhood in ways that you might not realize at first, and that it’s OK to be pissed the fuck off about it. anyway, just thought I’d share. I have 4 pages of Japanese homework due tomorrow so I’d better do it before it gets too late.

  429. I wrote the following the other day after re-reading what I posted up there a ways back…. about changing your mind… and then changed my mind about posting (irony intended). But I’m touched by what I’m reading here tonight from my fellow-formers.

    My previous post came out pretty specific on a personal level – and is probably what I’m best at – but perhaps I can generalize a bit.

    It sounds disgustingly simplistic to say, “Change your mind”. But we do it all the time about lots of things, large and small. You go to the store to buy what you need to make lasagna for dinner. When you get there you change your mind; the London broil is on sale. You change your mind about going to that cocktail party and instead, enjoy a cozy evening with your sweetheart or a friend and a good movie you’ve been wanting to see. You agonize over someone you really love and feel utterly committed to but s/he is cheating on you; you are in major pain; but after some soul-searching you end up changing your mind and dump the relationship. Count the many times in a day or a week you just change your mind about something from the mundane to the serious – with or without critically thinking about it. You can come up with hundreds of your own examples.

    So it’s a matter of extrapolating the change-your-mind phenomenon from the frivolous to the frantic – especially regarding your own health and perceived survival.

    What is most useful is building a support foundation; choosing a direction to go; and finding/developing the HELP you NEED and WANT to keep yourself going, all the while making large and small adjustments (changing your mind) to ensure survival. It’s really great if you find a good therapist or support group to talk through the crap.

    It’s important to grasp the reality that YOU ARE NOT ALONE. Life is a maze for everyone; you’re just one more navigator (the most important one) in your life’s maze. It’s a matter of choosing to make it a-maze-ing. The support system you build along the way is what will make it beautiful. And it’s totally okay if it’s little by little; two steps forward, one step back and so on.

    Getting back to the personal, one of the hardest things to do – at least for me – is to let go. I have done that to a great extent, but I know I can never forget the ones I love and left behind nor do I think I should. I just have to let go because they do get to choose, even if *I* think they hardly have a choice. or that maybe they are too tarred and feathered to fly. I was constantly saying to myself, if I can do it, with the intelligence they were born with, so can they.

    By letting that go and letting them figure things out for themselves – and like the Serenity Prayer, change what I can, accept what I cannot and have the wisdom to know the difference – I have found a measure of peace.

    So I am left with a hope and a promise. What’s the promise? That I’ll never stop loving, that I’ll always be here if they ever find a way out. I’m right here, right now, and will be whenever those wings flap again. What I really want is for them to change their minds and then execute. It’s so much cleaner and truer than getting kicked out not to mention powerfully self-actualizing.

    One thing I learned very quickly: bitterness and hate will eat you up; sustained anger will tear you down along with those around you who care. I’m not saying one shouldn’t feel whatever they feel and work through it, but it’s so much more positive and less self-destructive to finally let it go and be present. I’m constantly amazed at the variety of life and all it’s both lovely and sometimes dangerous twists.


    Thanks yehaaa6 for filling in the gaps about your family. And mega-kudos to you for your ongoing experience, your determination and perseverance. You rock!

  430. yehaaa6 said: and yeah it could be pretty easy to figure out who I am now. oh well.

    I think it’s safe to say, even if someone does figure out who you are, by name, I doubt you’d be ‘outted’ by the honest posters here. I enjoy [ hmmm, sounds a bit voyeuristic, sorry] hearing about your previous life, and ET’s, etc… It give us a more rounded view of life inside.
    Japanese homework, wow! I can barely master English, at times! You do rock!

  431. Thank you for your post, E Texas.

  432. Yehaa and ET,
    I do not share your background but there are many many things I can relate to. I came from a family in which the only way to be seen/heard was to interrupt and to be loud. I remember in college observing other people who had friends and consciously imitating their conversational modes with the hope of becoming a likeable person. I practiced pretending to be a likeable person for about ten years before I realized that I had become (had always been?) a likeable person.

    My son wants me to learn Arabic and I think I am too darn old to do another language especially one that has a different script and does not have latin roots.

  433. Thanks for posting yehaaa6 and ET. It doesn’t matter what your “real” names are. The fact that you are posting here might help someone else and that’s BIG!!! Ariel, even if you can’t convince his to post here, he has you to talk to if he wants and that’s saying a lot. You can allow him to vocalize his feelings when he’s ready.

    Japanese Yehaaa6, wow, just wow. I’ve always wanted to learn Spanish. If you can learn Japanese, maybe, just maybe I can tackle Spanish.

  434. “I practiced pretending to be a likeable person for about ten years before I realized that I had become (had always been?) a likeable person.”

    HHG, that’s beautiful! The best part is that you had that realization. It’s so empowering to discover all the big and little beautiful truths about ourselves as we mature.

    And “…practiced pretending…”? Oh gosh! That just elicits all kinds of memories.

  435. The fact that you want to do the right thing makes you a likeable person. Actually knowing what is the right thing to do in any situation is a harder lesson.

  436. E. Texas

    You made two great points.

    The Serenity Prayer, change what I can, accept what I cannot and have the wisdom to know the difference.


    “One thing I learned very quickly: bitterness and hate will eat you up; sustained anger will tear you down along with those around you who care.”

    I will add another…forgive yourself.
    You cannot change the past, but you can learn from it and change your future.

    And learn to really love.

    1 Corinthians 13:1-13

    If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

    And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

    If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

    Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude.

    It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; …

  437. I believe this:

    “Love is its own reward.”

  438. (this is like a group therapy session, where is my “like” button ?!!)

  439. The above discussions are why I come here. It is wonderful to see how one person’s journey, pitfalls and all, can aid another person’s journey. Amazing and encouraging.

  440. Happy Birthday ET!!

  441. Thank you, S.!!
    One more rite of passage… 😉

  442. Many of us here voice merely our viewpoints, opinions and beliefs. We try to lend a voice and moral support to right a wrong and change an obvious trespass of individual rights and freedoms. Critics to the views here proclaim slander, bias and narrow mindedness but the verdicts, plea bargains and personal testimonies are ignored or proclaimed to be faked and untrue.

    I am encouraged to read Yehooo6 comments and recognize that the naysayers are the biased, narrow minded and slanderous claims against the real situations and truthful accounts of what really gives within a fanatical fundamental sect and it’s disheatening consequences. Stay stong Yehooo6 and remember ‘To Thine Ownself be True’. The oppositions stonewalling, entrenched closed mindedness and defense of now proven felons is really where the fault resides and lies reign.

  443. My husband and I are taking the kids to southern Utah for Spring Break next week. We will be stopping in Short Creek to visit the cemetery (It’s named after my ancestor) and see some things. My children, at 5 and 7, are too young to be told anything about their polygamist cousins (right?), but I want to be able to tell them someday that was where your aunt was arrested in 1944 and was I believe the first woman ever jailed for polygamy, and that school was where your family members sang songs while waiting for LE to arrive in 1953. I will never endorse polygamy and I believe it is inherently abusive, but this is still my heritage and my children’s heritage. I am also taking them to Lee’s Ferry, where my ancestors operated the ferry for many years after John D. Lee.

    I have been to Short Creek a few times but my family members have not. I have never been followed there or felt concerned for my safety, but things are probably a little different now with the court ruling turning the UEP back to the church. Does anyone have any thoughts?

  444. Actually, the present status of the UEP Trust is in limbo. The Utah Supreme court had ruled that the FLDS members who appealed to have their positions recognized where dismissed. The Federal ruling was that Utah AG and Court had acted beyond their respective authorities but has not made any specific findings in this finding. If the trust is to be returned, liquidated or enforced has not been specified by the Federal judge, meanwhile the Utah Supreme Court has asked for legal briefs from the involved parties to this action. There hasn’t been a definitive ruling or proven court venue to establish ownership nor control.

  445. Third Cousin, I can certainly appreciate your feelings and actions and respect for family. Most families have history details they are not proud of, but want their children to respect and appreciate the good portions. The important thing, in my way of thinking, is that we appreciate our freedom to decide for ourselves and are not held in bondage to the creed of disturbed leaders. All the best to you and yours.

  446. CAJim, briefs are due to the Supreme Court on the doctrine of laches today. I expect the SC ruling to come quickly.

  447. Thanks older Anon. It is a struggle.

  448. Ariel, If Curtis is his dad then his grandfather is Alma, not Dan.

  449. 3rd cuz, why are you thinking the children are too young to know? I admit that nobody told me I learned as an adult so cannot compare. But my I was a curious child!

  450. My Favorite Song about LOVE.

    Before the throne of God above,
    I have a strong, a perfect plea
    A great High Priest whose name is “Love,”
    Who ever lives and pleads for me.
    My name is graven on His hands,
    My name is written on His heart;
    I know that while in heav’n He stands
    no tongue can bid me thence depart.
    No tongue can bid me thence depart.

    When Satan tempts me to despair,
    and tells me of the guilt within,
    upward I look and see Him there
    Who made an end to all my sin.
    Because the sinless Savior died,
    my sinful soul is counted free;
    For God, the Just, is satisfied
    to look on him and pardon me.
    to look on him and pardon me.

    Behold him there! the risen Lamb,
    my perfect, spotless Righteousness,
    the great unchangeable I AM,
    the King of glory and of grace!
    One with Himself I cannot die,
    My soul is purchased by His blood;
    My life is hid with Christ on high,
    with Christ, my Savior and my God
    with Christ, my Savior and my God

  451. Third Cousin – as a mother of 4 children who will have to deal with the confusion of a spotted heritage themselves, my advice is this: Spare your children all the juicy details, but do not undermine their intelligence by thinking they can’t understand at least the basics. No one knows your children as well as you do, and keeping their maturity levels in mind, decide ahead of time what you will share and what you won’t. But if you are making the visit, and you yourself will be having visible emotions, you need to share something with them. If you don’t do it now, when they are older and learn the whole truth, the past will feel more taboo to them and they may question who they are and who you are. And the key to sharing something like this,I believe, is to show them and allow them to have compassion for the people and their situations as a tenant of basic humanity, but do not leave any gray area in their minds for what you believe is right, and what you believe is wrong. That shouldn’t waiver. Only my opinions – hope they help.

  452. Excellent posts. I hope it brings healing to many.

  453. So we had a big talk last about it all last night… 🙂

    Figured who his grandfather was last night too lol. Thanks everyone for sorting that out though.

    I think things can only get better now….

    Yehaaa6, It doesn’ matter what your name is and I’ll leave your privacy. What does matter is how much you helped!

  454. Sorry. I should have read all of the comments before posting about Alma.

  455. Thank you, Nikkig. Well said! While I don’t think the intention of this blog was for healing, I appreciate the sincerity of the truly compassionate.

    Maybe we could create a blog where “has beens” can communicate about our experience without having to endure the verbal abuse that is so rampant here??

  456. Can anyone give me a curent estimate on how many members the FLDS has? So many sources are telling me so many different things :S

  457. I, for one, would like to speak with others who don’t have a “let’s get them back” agenda. I don’t associate the wrongs done by individuals as a collective guilty verdict. And I still love and miss my family.

    BTW, I was not exed but chose to leave… Furthermore, stump, I would not repent if i was paid to. I’m having too much fun.

  458. Me Again, with regard to your interest in connecting with those who have left the FLDS, I think that East Texas knows of blogs which focus on fostering communication between ex FLDS members – maybe she can advise you further, once she returns here from her birthday celebrations…

  459. @ Nikkig – thanks for the kind advice. It makes a lot of sense to me and I so appreciate it. Especially about the future questioning of who they are and who I am. They don’t need that.

    @ Granny – you know what? They probably aren’t too young to hear the basics. My thought process is probably affected by all the secrecy of generations ago when polygamy became clandestine and wasn’t to be discussed. I really don’t want to repeat the “family secrets” experience for my kids.

  460. Third Cousin, I will consult with a few mental health professionals I know to get a consensus opinion on when and how you should tell your children about their family history.

  461. You’re very welcome Me Again and Third Cousin.

  462. S., Thanks so much, I really appreciate that.

  463. I heard there was something like 7000 +- sigs on the POTUS doc, including some children, but presumably not all…?

  464. Ariel

    Warren in his own word estimated 8,000 including Canadians.
    But that we back in 2004.

    No telling now.

  465. Warren’s visitor list has been released. Lyle has visited 11 times since January 12, his brother Isaac 8 times, wife Paula Jessop 6 times, wife Ora Bernice Steed 6 times, wife Lorraine Roundy 5 times, John Wayman 4 times, son Levi Jeffs 2 times, daughter Lenora, son Ammon and legal wife Annette all 1 time. Wendell Nielsen was making regular visits until 1/22. He has not been back since that time. Merril hasn’t been according to this list.

  466. According to the Eldorado Success there were 6376 age 8 and above as of November 2010. That’s how many signed the petition to the President.

  467. Seems like the actions of aiders and abettors is given broad license by Me Again. To date not one YFZ Ranch resident has ever witnessed to any of the serial felonies that have transpired there. When ‘Warrant’ Jeffs was a fugitive from a Federal manhunt, he resided at the YFZ Ranch and not one resident reported that situation either. In fact, ‘Warrant’ appeared before the assembled crowd at the Temple dedication and spoke to the audience. What was that you were saying about individual infractions and nobody should judge the whole group?

    As I recall during the ‘Open House’ at the YFZ Ranch the entire assembled ranch residents denied ‘Child Brides’ existed, that any abuses were observed and underaged celestial marriages never transpired upon the Raunch.

  468. I’m glad Me Again is having too much fun to repent 🙂

  469. I am speaking more specifically of the people in the original settlement of cc/hildale. I don’t believe that many of them had a clue as to what was transpiring in Texas.

    I do not intend to excuse abuse. I share your concerns as to the situation in YFZ as well as isolated incidences in cc/hildale. I am very alarmed to learn of the extremes that some individuals go to in order to maintain their standing before warren. I do believe, though, that it is a form of “conditioning” to get them to that point. Note the isolation that was used. It is disturbing, indeed.

    CaJim, I think that your intentions are good but that your approach of correctioning the situation is a like a bull in a china shop. Your tactics will only pull them more closely together.

    EDUCATION is the KEY!!!

  470. Me Again, lots of underage girls who lived in CC/Hildale were married off to old men. The group as a whole condoned anything and everything that was presented to them by Warren Jeffs and thus should be held accountable. I realize that it might draw them closer together, but so far the effect of ignoring the problem has just created a bigger problem. If law enforcement in Utah/Arizona would have started taking action in 2004 instead of just turning a blind eye to the goings on, I don’t think there would be as big a problem as there is now.

    As it stands, every man who is in a plural marriage relationship should be arrested. Every man who has married a child underage should also be arrested and not allowed to go back to the community or be around any children as they are criminals and sexual predators.

    The women are as guilty as the men, except that they have no say whatsoever. They have no choice about their husband marrying another woman whether she’s underage or not. Yes they could report the situation, but that comes back to their believing that if they don’t do everything their priesthood head says, they are damned to hell. There are some who wake up and smell the coffee, but they are few and far between.

    Me Again, I never realized that you were also from the FLDS. I hope that you have been able to find some measure of peace in the outside world.

  471. CAJim, they could arrest the whole lot of those at the ranch, if for nothing else than impeding an investigation and lying to law enforcement.

  472. BS, anonymous 6:08. Any relationship between consenting adults is neither yours nor my business. Yes. I said adults. It’s none of your “affair.”

    I feel just as strongly as any of you in regards to the underage marraige situation. Lets make an effort to curtail that issue rather than mandate who can sleep with whom.

  473. And yes. They are two completely separate issues, in my not-so-humble-opinion.

  474. So long as there are no children exposed or involved eh?

  475. But both are against the law Me Again. And you can’t tell me that a woman who has been raised in polygamy has the ability to “consent” to anything regardless of whether or not she’s 18. By you are wrong in that they are consenting adults. When Warren’s trial comes about, you will see a very long list of girls who were married off underage. We know of at least 12 from Canada. You think those in the Crick were any different?

  476. I guessing before all is said and done, Warren’s bad acts will include over 100 underage marriage performed among his followers, not counting the 30 underage brides he himself took.

  477. As someone who takes informed consents all day, I don’t think that many of the plural marriages in the FLDS could be classified as being between “consenting adults.” The elements of informed consent are not met when there are arranged marriages ordered by a prophet who holds the deed to your family home, nor are the elements of informed consent met when girls consent to an arranged marriage and they have not even received education with regards to sexuality, birth control, and prevention of sexually transmitted diseases.

  478. PT, please reread my comment. I agree there are differences in adult vs. underage marraiges. I respectfully disagree when it comes to the adult marraiges. Whether it is consentual at that point is neither for you nor I to determine. If one feels compelled to marry, there are legal steps one can take to get protection. As an adult, the parties are free to access it at any time if they so choose. The key word here is “choose.”

    GT, I’m trying to understand where you are coming from with your comments. Were you hurt by someone? Would you like to share?

    FYI, GT, I have personally seen more traumatized children from the homes of monogamists and serial monogamists than from those that are polygamous. I am not referring to any specific religion or community. They come from all over. The fact is that life is hard. And unfortunately, children are often damaged because of their parents’ lack of understanding?caring? or whatever. This can happen to children from any walk of life/community. That is simply a fact.

  479. Ok, ok. You scared me away. Bye, now.

  480. The data with regard to child abuse in polygamous societies is from Islamic countries, not Mormon communities – and that data indicates that domestic violence is more common in polygamous families than monogamous families. Again, there is no data regarding Mormon fundamentalist households in the US or Canada and child abuse.
    With regard to polygamy in the US, studies have been done regarding the incidence of incest – and that data indicates that the incidence of incest in polygamous families is higher than the incidence of incest in monogamous families.

  481. I disagree with you about the fact that adults should be allowed to do it if they want. Do you feel the same about ritual sacrifice? If it’s ok to break the law for polygamy, is it also ok to break it for sacrifice? Both are part of people’s religion. If your religion says that you must smoke crack everyday, are you going to try to use religion as an excuse to get you out of your arrest? You can pontificate all you want, but the bottom line is that it is against the law and the law either needs to be changed or upheld. Given the numerous studies I’ve seen, I’d vote for it to be upheld.

  482. Me Again, I did not want to scare you away. I am capable of having a rational and respectful discussion with those whom I disagree with…

  483. I usually can too.

  484. Hey 3rd cuz, more kin?

    Birth Date: 05/31/79
    Address : TRANSIENT, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    17:50:00 03/24/11 Giles, Michael SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    WARRANT-CASH WARRANT-CASH ONLY BM WCJ6 532.00 [No Payments Made]

    Birth Date: 04/27/92
    Address : 545 S VALLEY VIEW DR; 18, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    19:11:00 03/23/11 Christensen, Mi SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    0.00 [No Payments Made]

  485. Proud you definitely are capable of rational and respectful debate, in addition to being a terrific source of information, of course.

  486. Thanks S, but I can’t always be rational and respectful. Just admitting to a truth about myself.

  487. I’ve never seen that side of you PT. I’m headed out for the evening, will also get a second consult for third cousin regarding her question tomorrow.

  488. Have a good evening S.

  489. Arrestees: status as cousin unknown. My data on the young ones is sparse.

  490. @ Me Again. Please don’t go away.

  491. As I recall during the ‘Open House’ at the YFZ Ranch the entire assembled ranch residents denied ‘Child Brides’ existed, that any abuses were observed and underaged celestial marriages never transpired upon the Raunch.

    CAJim said this on March 25, 2011 at 4:54 PM

    Most of the women at the ranch at that time where wives of Warren, Merril Jessop and Wendell Nielsen.

    One may not been aware of underage brides, and that is Janet Jeff Nielsen.

    She had been sent to a place of refuge and brought back after the raid.

    Unknown to Tribune photographer Trent Nelson caught the reunion with her children at Fort Concho with his camera lens.

    Me Again, leaving the polygamy aside, Warren Jeff’s has created fear, mistrust and untold damaged to many young and old souls by taking their mothers and fathers away on a whim of a dream or tattle tellers.

    People on this blog are aware of gentile sins in the real world.
    They are not making excuses.

    Your world is supposed to be perfect remember?

    How can a perfect people be controlled by a mere mortal man who has concocted this mess to save his own child molesting hide.

  492. Sorry cuz, I was just giving you a hard time about your relatives. I’ve got my share who have spent time in the clinker.

  493. You are right about Janet Jeffs Nielsen. They had to bring her back from “afar” because she had children who were picked up at the ranch. The same can be said of Maggie Jessop Jeffs Nielsen. She wasn’t around at the time of the raid either having lost her place (or whatever the heck you call it when a woman is sent to repent from afar).

  494. It’s okay PT – I have one great great uncle who did 3 tours in the Idaho State Pen – the first before he turned 15! And it was nothing to do with cohabiting either. I pity those lacking such colorful family history.

  495. From Brent Hunsaker: It is rumored that they are either planning a coup against Jeffs or starting a rival, polygamist group. Whatever their plans, they’re not talking to outsiders and at any rate, Holm doesn’t see them helping the community much. “It seems like freedom is to have less church control of any type, but to have just common sense and decent interaction between individuals,” he said.

    Wouldn’t it be great if Merril testified against Warren.

  496. Here’s a story from

    “One other thing, Jeffs’ faithful are still keeping the Colorado City post office busy. A reliable source tells ABC 4 News another mass mailing – approximately 600 packets – was sent from there a few days ago.”

  497. Me Again, I am committed to ending polygamy practices anywhere in the United States of America. Your claim for freedom between adults falls flat because polygamy, as taught and practiced by the FLDS Church, is inherently unequal and has never been defined as a right or freedom. Your view is in a distinct minority and belongs on a scrap heap of failed teachings of false prophets.

    The mainstream LDS Church got this message in 1890 and you thinking is just as archaic. America as a free society has the right and responsibility to order our Nation in anyway that is acceptable to the majority, polygamy was never accepted by a majority of Mormons in the 1800s and you are a dreamer. Monogamy is the legalized form of wedlock in this country and illicit fornication is outlawed, i.e. prostitution, polygamy and beastiality.

  498. Thanks anon @ 9:52. I was just coming back to post the link.

  499. CAJim – “Polygamy was never accepted by a majority of Mormons in the 1800s?” What??? Additionally, historically, the Mormon church did not get the message in 1890. Around 1920 maybe.

  500. Ooops. I think that sounded rude, but that’s not the way I meant it. I’m incredulous but not trying to be unkind.

  501. Looks like the Utah Supreme Court is set to thumb it’s nose at Benson:

  502. Mormons were even hiding it from one another and especially one’s wives, commonly enough. The Big Whiff may not really have gotten out until Utah was turned down, twice, for US Statehood because of the practice. Although, they’d brought polygamy to Texas by 1850.

  503. Here’s a story from

    “One other thing, Jeffs’ faithful are still keeping the Colorado City post office busy. A reliable source tells ABC 4 News another mass mailing – approximately 600 packets – was sent from there a few days ago.”

    Strange goings on there, will there be a new polygamist group, or will the FLDS rank and file finally wise up and give ole Warren the boot!

    Hope that some one can get a copy of the new mass mailing, wonder if Warren’s claiming credit for Japan. In any case ole Warren got it wrong about Illinois, guess the White House mail room staff will get a chuckle out of it before passing it on to the Secret Service where it will be filed in the loony bin file.

  504. Maybe it is time for a new string – there are over 500 responses here.

  505. Okay. But the 1890 proclamation was a farce.

  506. Farce? I call it an outright lie.

  507. From the Vancouver Sun today by Daphne Bramham –

  508. A recent survey indicates that 91% of the US population thinks that polygamy is wrong –

  509. Interview with Principle Voices directors –!.March.24.Principle.Voices.for.Polygamy

  510. For those who are interested, the LDS Church in Atlanta, Georgia will be hosting an open house at the LDS Temple in Atlanta, GA.

    The general public will be allowed to tour the temple.

    From press release: “The general public is invited to tour the Atlanta Georgia Temple from Saturday, April 9, through Saturday, April 23, 2011, excluding Sundays and Monday evenings.”

    If you are not LDS and want to see the inside of a real LDS temple, here’s your chance. I would bet all the oil in Texas that the FLDS will never have an open house at their YFZ Temple. IMO the YFZ version is the only one with a bed in it, bet you won’t find a bed in the LDS’s Atlanta, Georgia temple.

    Here’s link for more info:

  511. Me Again, I agree completely. Painting all Polygamous living arrangements with a broad brush is a deceitful way for anti-Mormons to accomplish their agenda. Most groups condemn underage marriage (which I also agree is a separate and unnecessary practice) and some even let the women choose their husbands. Society celebrates polygamy when practice by celebrities like Hugh Heffner and Charlie Sheen (both are co-habitating with several women who are half their age or less), and then condemn ol’ Nephi Young Allred for doing the same thing. It is hypocritical. What kind of message does that send? Hey kids, it’s ok to shack up with as many women as you want, but your not allowed to love them or treat them as if they are more to you than just a sex object? Since the FLDS is the most public, and one of the worst examples of Polygamy in action it makes it easy for the Feminists to trick people into thinking it is all the same coercive nonsense. Comparing polygamy (Mormon or Hef-style) between CONSENTING ADULTS to human sacrifice is laughable at best and completely destroys all credibility of any poster who stoops to making such a comparison. It’s like saying marijuana is just as bad as heroine. I know it’s not a popular opinion around here, but in the real world, I think more people would agree with us, Me Again. The opinions I’ve heard outside of the rocky mountain region is that most people don’t care if a guy wants a second wife, they just can’t understand why any guy in his right mind would ever want to do that. Now that logic, I can understand, but it is NOT for me, nor anyone else, to decide. It is up to the Men (plural) and (adult) women who choose who they want to live with. This is not a Mormon issue. More and more famous people are going to start doing the Charlie Sheen thing because they can. Nobody will care, because they are not Mormon.

  512. So some of you have access to the signature page? It would be awfully kind of you to break it down Census, style: how many males an females exist in specific age ranges. I know it is a lot of work, but many folks around here would really appreciate it. No names, just numbers. I would certainly post it if I had access to it. How many men and women 8-12, 13-18, 18-25, 25-40, 41-65, 65+ or something like that.

    Thank you in advance for your efforts.

  513. I forgot to say please.

    Pretty please with a cherry on top.

  514. The problem with the FLDS as I see it (and correct me if I am wrong those of you who have been part of the group) is that it has gotten to the point where the underage marriages and first cousin marriages have become completely intertwined with what it is to practice the principle. To deny one would be just as bad in their eyes as denying polygamy. The way I believe that they see things, it would make them no better than the LDS church that they condemn for banning polygamy with the 1890 and 1908 manifestos. Is this accurate? Could they abandon the child brides and first cousin marriages for the sake of saving the principle, or have those aspects of the FLDS marriage practices become just as important to them as the polygamy?

  515. I don’t think anyone here thinks that Hugh Hefner or Charlie Sheen should be “celebrated” – the attention they attract is voyeuristic and hardly a demonstration of admiration for either of them.
    Charlie Sheen needs a psychiatric intervention – that is obvious to most intelligent non professionals. Hugh Hefner needs to grow up and act his age.
    Neither of these men have ever represented that they are married to the plural girlfriends they cohabited with, btw. The women who have chosen to cohabit with these men are seeking to advance their own careers and they really don’t care for either of these men.

  516. The problem with the FLDS is not simply incest, cousin marriage, or underage marriage. The issue is coercion and poor educational opportunities which restrict the ability of women to make an intelligent informed decision regarding marital choice. Coercion has been reported in the Harmston group, the Kingston group, and the FLDS.

  517. Your comments also don’t address the issue of consent of the senior wives in the marital relationship with regard to the addition of junior wives – apparently the senior wives are frequently told who their husband will be marrying – and they must consent or they should anticipate that they will “be destroyed” (D&C Section 132)
    Your comments also reflect the predominant misconception that most polygyny in the US is Mormon – this is untrue, as the estimates indicate that most polygamists (and potential polygamists) in the US and Canada are Moslems, not Mormons – and the published research data indicates that most Moslem senior wives in polygynous marriages were not consulted (therefore coerced) into participating in polygyny.

  518. FLDS and their supporters surely do get some odd coocoo ideas about what they think mainstream law-abiding Americans think.

  519. I’d like to know what percentage of women in polygynous Mormon marriages truly consented to their husband’s choice of a junior wife / wives. Given D&C Section 132, the senior wives are told they must consent to polygyny or anticipate “destruction.” The data regarding failure to consent polygynous senior wives regarding secondary wives added to the marriage is already available in the Islamic medical literature. True consent of all spouses to a potential polygynous union would involve a series of plural “dates” for a prolonged period of time as well as pre-marital counseling. While I am sure that these plural courtships do occur, I think that more frequently the husband (or a religious leader) makes a unilateral decision regarding the choice of a new spouse and it is “consent or be destroyed.” Until such time that a study is published which indicates that ALL partners are truly consenting to the addition of a new partner to the marital relationship without coercion, maintaining current bigamy statutes as they are is the best option to protect the rights of vulnerable subjects.

  520. Chinle de Chey your claims and values are equally baseless and ridiculous. Since when has Hugh Hefner or Charlie Sheen’s lifestyles been models for American youth? If polygamy isn’t a Mormon problem it sure has haunted their history for over 150+ years. Brigham Young used the ploy of pointing to prostitution as his ruse to legitimize polygamy practices, both are equally corrosive on a moral basis. I think coerced sex slaves and sex trafficking are comparable offenses to polygyny, not human sacrafice. FLDS Church is more than just a little willing to preserve underage marriage, reassignments, shunning youths, sex traffick minors, unlawful parental consents and falsify records to protect and defend their illicit polygyny. They don’t acknowledge age of consent, sex trafficking, international borders, aggravated rape or bigamy laws of ‘Gentiles’. As the Counselor for the BC Provinces, namely Craig Jones has observed, they consume their young into their cult and coerce their involvement by religious tenets. Arguing privacy between ‘consenting adults’ ignores the indoctrinations and limited choices afforded their sect members.

  521. Who compared polygamy to human sacrifice? Did I miss a post? Never heard of that. Mormons tend to overestimate the prejudice that the rest of the world bears for them. I live on the East Coast and I had never met a Mormon to my knowledge and knew very little about them three years ago when I started following the FLDS. If you can’t discuss differences of opinion with others without restorting to accusations of prejudice, maybe you should speak only with those who agree with you.

    We have addressed the whole subject of whether or not Mormon polygamy is consensual for women many times on this blog and I personally do not have the time or inclination to go into a long proof of the matter. The short answer is that as long as D&C 132 says that women will be destroyed by God if they do not submit to their husband’s additional wives, then it is not consensual. Whenever a new wife is added without the consent of the existing wives, it is not consensual. There are stories of that happening to my knowledge from every major sect of fundamental Mormons and Moslems. Nor is the submission of a woman in total obedience to her husband after being raised in a family where her mother lived in obedience to her father any real choice. It invites abuse by removing the incentives against it. Any system that allows the woman to chose who will own and control her for the rest of her life is not egalitarian; it is a cruel joke.

    And where did you get the idea that we approve of Charlie Sheen or Hugh Hefner? The first is an addict, the second is a senior citizen with the maturity of a teen age boy. They both represent the hollow, self indulgent consumerism that marks some of the worst of our society. Such women are at best free agents selling themselves as commodities. But heck, at least those women get paid and can walk away with a little money in the bank to start a new life. They aren’t dumped off in the street penniless like some of the older FLDS wives or shuffled around from husband to husband like a used sofa.

    Personally, I think that adult, consensual sexual behavior should be legal. I’d like to see the government get out of the marriage business in general. But that does not mean that I approve of polygamy or that I am fooled into thinking that religion mandated polygyny is the same as the highly consensual forms of polyandry. I regularly donate money to organizations that help women leave polygamy and that promotes education of the abuses of polygamy.

  522. A side note: Tinfoil Hat ,one of our favorite phrases here for some of the nuttier posters, has been added to the Oxford English Dictionary. It made me laugh to see it on the news.

  523. Sciotangy,

    The belief that is toxic for the FLDS is that the profit is the mouthpiece of God and he controls most of their lives. People are involved in under aged marriage because it is revealed to them by the prophet that that is the will of God. To a great extent neither the man or the woman has much choice; do what your told or submit to total financial, spiritual and emotional banishment. There is no specific belief system relative to the age of the bride, but rather to obedience to the revelations of Warren Jeffs. If you do not accept that, you are not FLDS, basically.

  524. Please stop inventing new screen names to come on and agree with a previous post you made.

  525. I was the one who said that condoning something in the name of religion even though it is against the law doesn’t make it OK and pointed out that ritual sacrifice and smoking marijuana are both beliefs in some religions, but they aren’t allowed to be practiced. And it’s true. It’s OK to believe anything you want in the disguise of religion, but when you start putting those beliefs into practice you will run into trouble.

  526. I’ve seen some of this list of names Forest and no, I will not be combining any data about it. It’s 400+ pages and 6000+ names. I don’t have the time or inclination to do that.

  527. PT, in that context, I agree with you.

  528. Islam allows and advises a husband to beat his wife if she is disobedient. Should we allow that in the US as a religious right ?

  529. It’s been said before and it bears repeating.

    We live in a democracy with laws that we ascribe to by the very act of continued residence and citizenship. We call them the laws of the land. You can’t – and shouldn’t – get away with breaking the laws of the land without suffering the consequences.

    If you adopt beliefs requiring practices and behaviors that cross those lines of the law – under which you have chosen to live! – or you believe God has told you to “live a higher law,” you have two choices:
    1) try to get the offending law changed to your advantage… or
    2) go find some other country that allows those behaviors and practices. If you have difficulty with that, ask God to direct you.

    In the meantime, there’s actually another choice:
    3) DON’T DO THE CRIME. That’s the only choice you have (without repercussions) until you effect one of the other two.

    You don’t have to give up your beliefs, only the criminal behavior.

  530. A little puzzled by the comments about Janet Jeffs Nielsen. In several interviews she describes the raid as though she was there. Plus, there is a photo of her along with Sally and Merilyn on the bus with the girls. I assumed this was the bus at the ranch as it looks like the eaves of one of the homes can be seen through the bus window.There are a couple of shots of them standing talking with one another and with the girls on the bus. Janet says in one of the interviews that they were not allowed to go with the girls at that time. I also think I have seen video of Janet walking down the steps when they took the first group of girls, but I may be wrong.

  531. Emma Hale Smith Bidamon opposed polygamy her entire life, remarried after Joseph Smith died and helped start a new monogamous version of the LDS church and lived happily in a monogamous marriage for the rest of her life. Emma Hale Smith Bidamon never accepted polygamy and was never destroyed. It was Joseph who was destroyed, not Emma. Emma went on to live many more years happily married to another man. Surely, even polygamous girls know that and would therefore not fear that part of D&C 132 that is being mentioned here. That part addresses Emma Smith by name and nothing ever happened to her so why would anything happen today to someone else? Of course, understanding logic sorta requires one to not be Mormon, I guess. Even polygamous women in the early church were way ahead of their time as far as women’s rights were concerned. They were trailblazers, not sex slaves and concubines. They helped women get the right to vote in the United States.

  532. Thanks for saying that ET. That’s what I was trying to get across. No one has the right to break the law and no religion is above the law.

    As for Janet Jeffs Nielsen, it is my remembrance that she showed up later along with Annette (who was visiting Warren) and Maggie (who was repenting from afar). Do you have a link to photos of Janet during the raid anon @5:14. You might very well be right, but that’s not how I remember it.

  533. Great point with your post as usual E.Texas.

    I’ve never seen the list, but perhaps someone could post it with the names blacked out.

  534. Continue on General Discussion #51

    Thank you

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