General Discussion #49

Continued from General Discussion #48

~ by FLDS TEXAS on March 1, 2011.

506 Responses to “General Discussion #49”

  1. Woo Hoo, a fresh new page!!!

  2. I really wish I could be a fly on the wall of the fbi office and listen to the discussions (I should hope there are some) and strategizing.

    are there any such?
    if so why are they waiting? what potential benefit is there to waiting for after the jeffs’ trial, etc.
    Or maybe there just isn’t an fbi file that is going anywhere but to the round – which would really really really really…….really upset me
    sure wish i could eavesdrop

  3. Happy March 1st!

  4. I agree Merril dropping dead in a hearing would be a PR nightmare
    but… the constantly bring in these 80+ mobsters for trial…
    wrt to stints etc…. my husband has a stint and travels internationally on a monthly basis

    I think the point was, S, that while we do not know the true medical state of Merril we do know from dictations and from prior behavior that he has avoided and will use anything to avoid appearing in court. If I were a judge I would want a whole lot more than an FLDS associated dr.s note.

  5. should read, the fbi is constantly getting 80+ mobsters in court despite their pleas of ill health…

  6. perhaps Warren’s letter to the President was meant to appear as dillusional, so he might can go for a mental illness defense and be released to a hospital, thus having more contact with his followers….possiblly?

  7. an older….
    I wondered about that also,
    but his dictations stating that he knew himself to be a criminal in the eyes of the US and the evasive actions taken to deliver him fresh flesh would make an insanity defense a whole lot harder, especially as he is taking over the management of the trust

  8. Agreed, HHG. It’s either president of the corporation sole OR insanity defense, pick only one.

  9. Thanks to ET for the link

  10. More recent events taken by Prophet Warren S. Jeffs are escalations and fairly ominous signs that he is becoming more unstable, again.
    The wholesale ‘handling’ of so many FLDS members has usually been justified by Jeffs in a revelation from Heavenly Father. Mormon history had a character named Porter Rockwell who was suspected to have attempted the assasination of the then Missouri Governor Lilliburn Boggs. Dismissing Jeffs letter to the President and Congressmen as some action of a crank sect leader does not give this threat/warning the historical precednece it deserves. I think if the letter describes specific acts to occur in the future and can be caused by a man/men then they ahould be treated seriously. Jeffs presently is being allowed to reach beyond his prison cell and his actions have had real consequences, his followers have displayed their loyalty and obedience.

  11. FYI – A Warren Jeffs Bio

    A philosopher whose name I don’t remember once said, “Religion doesn’t teach you how to be good, it only teaches you how to pretend to be good.” which is what I think led up to Warren’s master plan.

    Warren was never a true believer of the fundamentalist Mormon doctrine under which he was born and raised. He is faithless, has never in his heart of hearts believed in the gospel, the revelations or had any respect for religion at all. To him, all religion is for mindless, superstitious people. However, he was and arguably still is an intelligent thinker.

    Warren’s mother along with others were in hiding in Sacramento following the 1953 raids. He was born there prematurely. Apparently he shouldn’t have lived. His premature birth was considered miraculous and it was quietly believed his survival meant God wanted him here for a special purpose.

    Through his indoctrinated youth he learned how to please and how to say all the right things to get along within his family. As he was growing up in his father’s large family he saw the repression, the insecurity and futility of daily life among his competing mothers and sibs. Early on he fathomed the lack of logic and truth in his indoctrination and the practices he observed in his family and in ‘The Work.’

    A few times he dared to ask questions and was berated for his impudence. His questions were never answered satisfactorily. He was threatened and chastised for too little faith and not respecting the priesthood that was conferred on him at age twelve. When his hormones started to rage, he tried to get away with some bad acts that were discovered and punished. He began to look like a lost soul.

    However, he worked his way back into the family’s good graces and excelled academically in public schools. He was a computer whiz. And he fully recognized the secretive religious doctrine and practices of ‘The Work’ to be not only against the law, but fundamentally flawed and cult-like. Privately he began to form some strong personal opinions and ideas based on his studies and logic.

    With his proclivities, I’m not sure why he didn’t just rebel and go his own way. But he appeared to turn his life and mind around and again came into his father’s favor. He understood he was expected to adhere to his teachings in faith and obedience, to go forward and fulfill his priesthood calling.

    He graduated from high school with honors and was held up to his family for his exemplary ability to handle temptation and render strict obedience. He was asked to teach some classes at Alta Academy which had started under the direction of President LeRoy Johnson in the Jeffs home. Many families in “The Work” gradually pulled their children out of public schools. Alta Academy grew.

    And then Warren’s father had a minor car accident resulting from a stroke. During his recovery, Rulon Jeffs relinquished his position as school principal to Warren who started teaching morning devotionals constantly saying he was “voicing for Father.” This, then, became the beginning of speaking for his father and was well entrenched by the time President Johnson died in 1986.

    Thus, in the mid 70’s the takeover began and Warren started to experiment with his developing ideas. Some of Warren’s older brothers became concerned with his growing influence over their father. They were silenced as Rulon became more and more dependent on Warren’s “voice.” Warren became very practiced in the effects of the spoken word and in his ability to manipulate and manage the young minds of his students as well as his father’s activities. The school and his father’s condition provided a perfect training ground.

    Maintaining his father’s suggestibility along with his faithful facade was his primary self-appointed task. Meanwhile, ideas and suppressed anger stemming from his secretly held unbelief simmered under his well-honed pretense. The ‘one man rule’ and fractured priesthood leadership cemented his developing ideas even further.

    Skipping through the leadership breakup, LeRoy Johnson’s death, the upcoming Olympic games in the Salt Lake valley and his father’s ‘revealed’ apocalyptic events to come, the Johnson/Jeffs faithful were ordered to pack up, leave Salt Lake City and move to Short Creek. The faithful should be gathered in one place so they could be ‘lifted up’ when the time came according to Prophet Jeffs’ revelation. Warren was the motivating force behind that move always operating behind his father’s position.

    Rulon suffered more strokes after moving to Short Creek. Warren took ever greater control and when his father died he was in a perfect position to upset the applecart. His experiment in duping thousands of people was his to execute.

    Backing up:
    Over many years Rulon had developed important political allies, influences and agreements, at both state and federal levels. I shall not go into depth about those, but Warren came to know of them and was mentored by his father about the whos, whats and whys. It was those agreements and contracts that would support Warren in taking over the leadership of a huge group of people who would think and do anything asked of them under the guise of religion.

    Because of that, Warren felt he was untouchable and could proceed with his personal agenda conducting the most outrageous things, like underage marriages, trafficking and a lot of other economic tricks knowing he would be protected by the government. You scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours. Being placed on the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted list was a farce, a cover to answer growing public outrage and accusations against him. He was thumbing his nose at both society and the government at the same time knowing he was needed to cover for other nefarious? government activities.

    It was never intended that he should be caught and arrested. The Nevada traffic stop was a fluke, a huge mistake on Warren’s part that spiraled out of government control. Warren had pissed off too many people. I don’t know at exactly what point, maybe only recently, he realized he was well and truly caught. But he is in his own way capitalizing on his situation as The Prophet. He is in ‘savior’ mode, only a savior of a different color.

    What he is trying to do now is methodically destroy the faith and religion he was born into. He believes even if it costs his freedom and perhaps his life that it is for a greater purpose. He knows he has perverted tendencies and in his arguably insane mind believes he is doing a good thing.

    Because time is running out, his demands on followers are becoming more extreme, more fantastic. He is exposing the most gullible, gradually sifting out more and more people to consider freer lives outside what he knows are untenable conditions he is imposing. I wonder if he is surprised by how many continue to revere him and hang on to his every word.

    Revolution is hoped for, that purging some of the more powerful men will create an FLDS destructive force.. Who, among his followers or former followers, will finally raise the axe to cut off the head of the monster?

    All of this is true except some speculation about motives for the extreme path a guy as smart as he has taken since the 70’s.

    My old friend Warren is crazy, but is he just plain crazy or crazy like a fox?

    And how would I know all this? I can only say, because in the beginning I was as faithless as he. The difference is he had bigger balls and I chose to bail.

  12. I think Ervil LeBaron did the same thing, sending warnings to Mexican and U.S. government officials that if they didn’t release him from prison they would be destroyed by the hand of God. And of course, he really WAS crazy. Maybe Warren Jeffs remembers that too.

  13. What do Warren Jeffs, Charlie Sheen and Mohammar Qaddafi all have in common?

    More than you could ever imagine!!

  14. I think Jeffs is sending out mail now that he is locked in an itty bitty room and can’t travel about dusting his shoes anymore.

    And that FBI file? Its an “FBI FILE CABINET”… or warehouse, according to the pile of evidence said to be on him.

  15. anon @10:00 AM, that is a really interesting post. Thanks for sharing that info.

  16. I didn’t mean that he does not bear watching for real threats and/or real action against government officials. For one thing, the burning of the Texas governor’s mansion still is fresh in my memory. But if he says something along the line of God calling down floods and fire, etc., that is not a legal charge all by itself. A letter threatening the safety of the President and Congress with human action is, however, an offense all by itself.

    But with letters from my husband’s ex saying that she was praying for God to destroy us, we were not even able to get a TRO in our state to keep her away from family gatherings happening on our property.

  17. anon@10:00 AM you didn’t share about Warrens revelation to ‘Scatter the Flock’, has he been told to clear out of Utah or else? The Exodus has worked to Utah/Arizona’s advantage so far to rid themselves of this homespun fanatical orthodox movement that holds to it’s Mormon tap root. Scattering his flock across the Rocky Mountain states will lead to either a Federal Crime Task Force or the RICO Act being invoked. Centennial Park, Kingston and AUB remain to brew more Mormon tea.

  18. Gosh, Betty… what does it take to get a TRO? I guess when people threaten with God and prayers, there’s no legal recourse?

  19. Well, my state is kind of backwards on some things. The only way to get a TRO in this state is AFTER the first violence has occurred. Generally speaking, Virginia may be for lovers but it’s not all that friendly to women.

  20. CaJim, could you rephrase your last post? I didnt understand and need a simplified version. : )

  21. Older

    Short version of Jims post:

    Warren scatters women and children over state lines, violating federal laws, which may very well bring more charges, as seen with the Canada issue.

    The CP group have kept their heads down and are avoiding prosecution, but still stewing in the home base where this madness emenates from, Utah / AZ.

    Its an interesting study. Both are illegal, but one is just crazier than a Charlie Sheen on a Crack Pipe.

  22. And how would I know all this? I can only say, because in the beginning I was as faithless as he. The difference is he had bigger balls and I chose to bail.

    Anonymous said this on March 1, 2011 at 10:00 AM

    Anonymous great observation.

    I have my own observation.

    Genesis 34:14 for thou shalt worship no other god: for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

    Warren is treading on some serious big toes.

    I AM

  23. I don’t know anything about Charlie Sheen or crack pipes, but crazy is as crazy does and illegal to boot.

    Seems to me, Warren is going for broke. He is acting like he has NOTHING to lose. I wonder what his lawyer is thinking right about now. He must be getting lotsa $$$$$ to put up with all this sh*t.

  24. Warren has been acting under his 2004-05 revelations that have called for “The flock to be scattered” and the “Lands of Refuge” to be formed as enclaves for the Chosen to reside before the cataclysmic ‘End-Time’ which has begun to elapse. His ‘Templebuilders’ have moved into Texas and erected a Temple, in part because of these revelations.

    The political realities include minimal charges/convictions were brought by Arizona in 2005 against five FLDS priesthood members, Utah’s conviction of Jeffs as an accessory to rape was overturned and the UEP Trust control has been over ruled.

    There are two parrallel realities elapsing here at the same time which is truly motivating Warren’s actions? Whatever political influence Rulon had seems to have expired in Texas but is still preserved in Utah/Arizona, as long as Eldorado remains the new headquarters for the FLDS Church. Did Jeffs truly leave because he was revealed a new light or he moved because he felt some heat?

  25. Anon 10:00 I can’t believe Warren ever had a master plan. He just pulls puppet strings in whatever direction his insane brain conjures up on the spur of the moment. He always has enough idiots around him who will do his bidding. Maybe he studied witchcraft in school. Is he allowed to have a Ouija in that jail?

  26. Charlie Sheen is having an epic Hollywood meltdown, which I have been following.

    He not only is a wife abuser, having shot one woman, and held a knife on three, but he often has MULTIPLE Porn Star hookers hanging with him at a time.

    He has OD’d a couple times on Crack, and the last in FEB ended his “hit show” two and a half men. He was paid a ridiculous amont for it, and it was nothing but dirty sex jokes.

    It mirrored some of his life, less the really nasty side. He has now publibly exploded – Oh – and he has written Obama too.

  27. I’ve been watching Charlie Sheen’s steep and rapid decline also. Sort of funny/sad. I liked 2 and 1/2 men. They didn’t just have sex jokes; they had dysfunctional family jokes, too.

  28. Charlie Sheen’s program should be canceled pending his successful completion of whatever treatment he requires – that would be in his best interest.

  29. CAJim: The thing I don’t understand is WHY build a temple in Texas. Maybe just for practice?

    I thought everything was supposed to happen in Jackson County, MO.

    When I was little my mother kept telling me to take good care of every new pair of shoes I got because I would need them to last when the day came we would have to WALK to Jackson County after the destructions.

    Does he ever talk about going to Jackson County in his dictations?

  30. I only watched about ten minutes of that show, over the last 8 seasons – I suspect they had a variety of jokes, and in the end its sad, because I think it enabled him to misbehave if not encouraged him.

    His bosses includin Les Moonves visited him at his home and tried to talk to him – evidently it all went south from there and rather quickly.

    He seems to be afflicted with a form of NPD as we have seen others act in this dispensation as well, but this guy has the money and drugs to fuel his mind bending rants.

    Others get a soapbox or a flock to help them on their journey down that path.

  31. Actually, ET, I think he does talk about Texas as practice.

  32. S,

    He has just completed a Home-Schooled month session at his home renamed “Sober Valley Lodge” – all the while being visited with Porn Star hookers and smoking up a storm.

    Hmmm I dont give his recovery longivety odds, he’s in major denial.

    Now the lawsuits are set to start flying.

  33. I agree, the story line of the show did encourage him to live that particular role. It’s on here while I’m fixing dinner and nothing much else is, so I’ve watched it quite a bit.

  34. Yes, E.Tex the real Temple will be in Jackson County, MO and the Eldorado Temple seems to have been a proto-type of sorts. Thats one reason that I would point to in arguing that Jeffs writings or actions should not be treated so dismissively or unseriously. He has wrought an noteworthy chain of events in the past 5-Years and dismissing his rants and raves is foolhardy. His agenda needs to be checked and his negative actions staid.

  35. Been wondering about Warren’s favorite wife and scribe Naomi. Has she not ever been under investigation? And if she took all those dictations from the nocturnal sessions, it would seem she could have had a lot of influence over Warren. Where is she?

  36. If I remember correctly E speculated that Warren’s behavior could be motivated by a variety of things, one of which was a desire to destroy the cult, rather like anonymous above is suggesting.

    The strikes me as kind of the hard way to do it. Why not be an FBI mole and set everyone up for jail directly rather than indirectly.

  37. Back to A. at 10 AM nice fairytale and all. Don’t expect us to buy it. Not me, anyway. Sekrit gotmint kerap, c’mon.

  38. I don’t know, Granny. Tony Alamo did less and he’s already convicted. Why the reticence to prosecute this man at a federal level? We’ve discussed defense contracts and other theories. It’s as good a guess as any.

  39. Perhaps Naomi made it all up and warren is innocent… Ha, ha…

  40. Actually, Me Again, I do agree with you to a certain extent – no I don’t think Naomi made up the illegal marriages or the money laundering, etc., but I’ve wondered how much is Naomi and how much is him as far as his nightly visions and who he trusts and mistrusts, etc.

  41. Betty, are you accusing him of burning the mansion? Do you have witnesses?? If not, your comment is libelous.

  42. Actually, Granny, I find that stuff about the “Sekrit gotmint kerap” pretty believable.

    Think about how LITTLE has been done over all these years by UT and AZ law enforcement and government entities. Now why is that?

    Combine the LDS culture (both states), law enforcement (or lack thereof) in the twin cities as well as the larger ones, the political agendas, the eensy weensy sentences any of them get when they do go to trial (probably because witnesses are scared out of their wits by FLDS Enforcers), and sprinkle all that liberally with federal monies poured into the air strip and educational facilities – oh I could go on and on – and government collusion is not hard to believe at all.

    I saw it first-hand for YEARS.

  43. From what I’ve read in those dictations (which I can hardly do for more than just a few minutes because of my gag reflex), I do wonder too about Naomie’s active imagination and or sanity. It’s just so creeeepy!

    But my question is, what’s her motive? Maybe to be #1?

  44. My word is this has to first take its course at the State of Texas level, then if the situation isn’t throughly addressed it can always and appropriately become a job for the Feds. My view is that this has spread across too many western states and two internaional borders, 1st Degree Rspes have occurred, sex trafficking, complicit parents and followers and polygyny practices. It reaches beyond local municipal or countywide controls and no one state can check its spread of organized crimes. Hopefully, Canada’s reference case and the Bountiful investigation will alarm enough state governments,
    that Senator Harry Reid’s call for US Senate action and a task force will be funded and called. Proclaiming this as a ‘Freedom of Religion’ issue is preposterous as the evidence clearly shows that the laws being broken go way beyond preserving any bigamy tenet as sacrosanct. Polygyny as employed by the FLDS Church commits multiple legal infractions that liken it more to a international crime wave than a mere religious practice.

    When these matters ultimately rise to the next level will probably follow Jeffs conviction or other factors may hasten its arrival.

  45. I wonder if young women from Colorado City / Hildale are also being sent across the Mexican Border for purposes of marriage.

  46. S, it has happened in the past. I don’t know about the present.

  47. texas governor’s arson is related to an anarchist group, in the latest round of new, not FLDS

  48. ET I remember LDS + Howard Hughes, Morton Thiokol o rings, so many oddities but that’s LDS. Why do YOU think there is “government” collusion? Exactly what?

  49. Yes, ET, I remember Colonia LeBaron, but that was another group, not FLDS, correct ?

  50. I think the Anon was right on. Warren knows he’s toast, so he’s going to take the whole thingndown with him

  51. PT, we can only hope!

  52. Understood about the LeBaron clans in Mexico, but some young FLDS women (or young women from The Work as it was called back then) were among some of the wives the LeBarons took over the Mexican border.

    But Mexico was sometimes a destination for conducting plural marriages initiated through John Y. Barlow, Joesph W. Musser and LeRoy S. Johnson. There was activity that way with Rulon C. Allred in his early days too. Many of those young women were US citizens.

  53. Granny,

    LDS + Howard Hughes, yesssss….. but……

    Thiokol o-rings were contracted to an FLDS-manufacturer. (I’m spacing on the name of the company it went by back then: Owner, Charles [Chuck] Knudson; President, Rulon T. Jeffs). It was one of THOSE o-rings that caused the Challenger disaster and deaths.

    From Wikipedia:
    “1986: An O-ring fault in an MTI SRB destroys Space Shuttle Challenger in flight. The company is found at fault for the destruction of the Challenger and deaths of the astronauts.”

    The FLDS manufacturing company went through PR hell for a while, but the resulting federal investigation found Thiokol’s post-production testing at fault.

    “Why do YOU think there is “government” collusion? Exactly what?”

    Sorry to disappoint you, Granny, but I value my privacy too much to go there.

  54. The Lebaron group…or Church of the First Born., etc, were/are a scary group. Although, from what little I’ve read, they lead MUCH more sedate lives now. I think they can technically be called FLDS, in the context that they are Fundamentalist and an off shoot of LSD. Or is that just my twisted historical logic?

  55. Oppps, hit enter too soon. But then, didnt the US FLDS’rs pull away from LeBaron’s due to the stife within the clan? I know some of them lived in SanDiego Co for awhile.

  56. This just popped into my mail bin— reports a new electronic system has been implemented that blocks transmissions from cell phones and radios coming from inside the state prison in Tijuana.

    I doubt the US will do this, but it could stop WJ from making those pesky ex-ing phone calls!

  57. Is this link to the same Church of the First Born you refer to, mc1199? If so, it appears that they have live services broadcast on the internet as well as recordings.

  58. Mc119, warren isn’t using a cell phone, it just a phone in his cell. Think pay phone attached to the wall.

  59. Me, Again. I’m pretty certain Jeffs did not burn the mansion since he was in jail in Arizona at the time. But the person who is seen in the blurry security video certainly could have been an FLDS male and the timing certainly was suspicious to me.

  60. I was in Salt Lake over the weekend and saw this article. Apologies if already posted.

    Utah takeover of FLDS property trust ruled unconstitutional

  61. It seemed to me that the judge was saying, “hey, you give all you have to a nut case and then he throws you out with nothing, YOU LOSE!”

  62. S. The leBaron’s chuch is/was The Church of the First born of the Fullness of Times…. They were in the news a yr or so ago, when Mexican drugdealers [?] kidnapped and killed 2 men from the colonia. Other than that, they’ve been outta the news for awhile.

    PT, yes, I realized after I posted that, that the question of a cell phone vs a cell [block] phone was already settled re WJ.

  63. It could also have been anyone else, too.

  64. Yes, it could, Me Again. It could.

  65. mc1199, that article on the burning of the mansion leaves me less than convinced of anything. They have tracked a white Jeep that allowed a group of people to take pictures of the mansion and found out who was in that Jeep. I’m sure there could be more that the police are not saying in the article, but they don’t say that they have any evidence whatsoever concerning actually burning it. That sounds like a lot of nothing to me.

  66. Ahm ET it’s like that is it.

  67. Yeah, Granny… you can call me chicken poop if you want… or even a conspiracy nut. 😉

  68. Concerning the burning of the Governor’s Mansion, I believe the poster was attempting to make the point that, in light of that event, we as a society and our govenrment cannot take too lightly threats being made to the President, his cabinet, memebers of congress and other government officials. I think it was just a generalization referring to the current state of heightened awareness to threats we should have.

  69. No ET, you know something but ain’t tellin. I’ve learned to trust you but dammit I wanna KNOW too! Come whisper inta mah ear.

  70. Some things are SO funny in some ways. Husb couldn’t get Uncle Sam to take back his Top Secret security clearance BUT in time it clears itself out kind of like oh, a clog in a drain because you don’t get re-cleared over time but you’re stuck with Secret as long as you live unless you do something bad.

  71. whisper into my ear too ….

  72. nikkig, thanks. Yes, that is what I meant. I certainly was not making a serious or specific accusation on anybody in the FLDS. But I kind of figured that “Me, Again” was going to see me as wrong/prejudiced/whatever no matter what I say. And, honestly, I don’t think the FLDS are any more peaceful than any other group, and less so than some.

  73. Oh yeah, depriving individuals or families of basic human needs is not peaceful and that’s what they do any day you care to mention

  74. John Llewellyn has published Chapter 2 of his new book, Mormon Polygamy : A Virus of the Mind. This chapter concerns itself with a critique of D&C Section 132.

  75. Just reading the Eldorado Success article on Warren’s proclamation of death and destruction. Apparently Reagan County prisoners may purchase phone cards through the jail commissary. A $9 phone card allows two 15 minute local calls ad one 15 minute long distance call. An $18 phone card allows for four 15 minute local calls and two 15 minute long distance calls. Phone service is disabled at 10 pm and turned back on at 5 am each morning. Inmates may also make unlimited collect calls during the hours the phones are operational.

  76. Sterling Harker’s boy:

    Birth Date: 08/17/87
    Address : 821 N PARKER PLACE #B, Beryl, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    17:33:00 02/26/11 Johnson, Steven HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  77. Does anyone have a copy of this proclamation ?

  78. I would urge people to write to and request a thorough federal investigation of the FLDS crime syndicate. Particularly on child exploitation, sex trafficking, money laundering and other crimes under the RICO Act. Ask them to investigate the House of Hiding where victims are hidden or people are sent for punishment. I would even reference this website. If enough people write in maybe this time they will take it seriously. Can you imagine any other crime syndicate dealing in international transport of underaged girls simply being ignored. Then write your senator and congressman saying you support Harry Reids call for a federal investigation.

  79. E Texas the O-rings that caused the Challenger to explode were made at Hydra Pak a company owned by none other than Rulon Jeffs. Rulon sold it to one of his sons a year later for over $1 million (probably from the tithes of members). It was also found that at that time tithing checks were being made out to Rulon Jeffs, not the church. I’m not sure if the FLDS church was a church yet. Rulon made up the church to get out of trouble. Up until that time it was just the United Effort Plan/Project. I’ve heard it both ways. Just like the Davis County Cooperative took the name Latter Day Church (The Kingstons).

  80. Yes, blackbird… HydraPak. Thanks for the reminder.

    I know Rulon Jeffs did take it over, but I thought the original owner was Chuck Knudson. On the other hand, perhaps I’m thinking of another of Knudson’s enterprises. Rulon Jeffs was CEO, President, COO, CPA… whatever… of quite a number of FLDS enterprises.

    Yes, there was lots of trouble. FLDS wasn’t a corporation until later. Jeffs was instrumental if not primary architect of the UEP Trust.

  81. S, there’s a copy of it here:

    Click to access 030111-Jeffs-Letter-Pres.pdf

    But they don’t have the pages of signatures, only the first 10 pages of damnation and destruction.

  82. I’ll do my part blackbird.

  83. All these years without 12 and 13 year old do ya suppose Warren’s got reptile dysfunction and done gone lost his mind, that 10 pages and all?

  84. Proud Texan: Thanks for the link to the “proclamation”. Warren is very much against abortion and predicts strong earthquakes in Illinois. Vaughn Taylor signed it as an officer of the Church. Do we know anything about him??

  85. So there is a new proclamation. All this time I thought you guys were overlooking this one:

    Click to access rflds-proclamation.pdf

    Is there any FLDS in Mexico? As far as I can tell, that is an unsubstantiated rumor. Does anyone know?

  86. There have been mormon fundamentalist communities in Mexico since 1886. They gradually went mainstream LDS with some percentage of their communities retaining fundamental beliefs.

  87. Yeah, the Lebarons, etc. but does Warren Jeffs’ FLDS church own property containing a compound or even a house in hiding south of the border? Is there a modern FLDS community in Mexico that is affiliated with Warren Jeffs and the FLDS Church specifically, like a Mexican version of Bountiful, or anything to that effect? If there was, he surely would have mentioned it in the dictations, no?

    If such a community exists, what would they call it?:

    A) Baja Colorado
    B) Arroyo Corto (Short Creek)
    C) Abundante (Bountiful)
    D) Ciudad de Colorado
    E) Anhelo de Sión (Yearning for Zion)

    Other suggestions? (Rr Dos)

  88. Saw the doc – hard to read but saw the signature page…

    So now Lyle Jeffs and Vaughn Taylor are the point men in threatening the USA?

    Why didnt Warren sign it, he has pen and paper!

    Those other two hobo’s are just ex-able lackies, stand in losers of the day.

    Before you know it, we will turn around and they will be exed too, having taken the wrath of God straight from Big Lake Jail in Texas Jail.

  89. A message from God and you cant read it.

    I hate when that happens! And all this time he could have emailed it – oh wait, no more pesky email says God! errrr Warren!

  90. Isn’t it funny how God speaks in pseudo Elizabethan English? Verily, I say unto you, I find that hilariously pompous and artificial.

  91. Here’s a much more readable copy of Warren the felonious profits, writings, IMO reads like BDM’s Book of Immanuel, bet the mailroom at the Whitehouse got a real laugh when they read this drivel!

    Click to access Warning_petition___Proclamation__2_.pdf

    TV station’s take on Warren Jeffs laughable threats.

    Can you believe that the FLDS sent out 600 plus copies of this!.

  92. Stamp, I think Warren dictated it over the phone. He probably never saw the finished product.

    I for one would like the see the phone bill of the meeting house at both the ranch and the Crick. I’m guessing the faithful had to give up everything else to spend their day, from 5am to 10pm at the meeting house listening to Warren. These phone calls could easily bankrupt them. Wonder who’s providing phone service to those places, they are making a mint.

  93. I want to see a copy of the 600 pages of signatures.

  94. Here’s an editorial from ABC 4 in SLC on subject of Warren Jeffs rants.

    I’m sure President Obama’s friend Harry Reid will explain it all, with both having a good laugh at felonious profit Warren’s expense.


    Good editorial

  96. What do you think about blackbirds summation, ET? They believe you…

  97. Betty, It is hard to understand or explain why the Fundamental Heavenly Father can only speak in the King’s English of the King James I, how come their Higher Power is stuck in this olde English time warp? I notice the threat still restates revenge of Joseph Smith, Jr.’s death is still needed and blood atonement is still in vogue, so murdering in the Almighty’s name by a ‘Danite’ is still kosher. The biggest note is that the allegiances are to Heavenly Father, his anointed (prophet) and no commitment to the ‘Gentile’ Nation, namely the United States of America. Back in Brigham Young’s day the oft quoted message was that prostitution was the major sin and now it seems to be abortions. The Civil War was expected to doom the ‘Gentile’ Nation and now Jeffs seems to be hedging his bets with a combination of earthquakes, destruction of Illinois, increasing severe weather and Canada can expect likesame. He’s pointing to a total distruction by reference to,”…removal of every root and branch” but he stops short of predicting his past claim of a violent hail of fireball firestorm. His vagueness seems to be more aimed at his FLDS Church members than evangelizing to the ‘Gentiles’. He’s not trying as hard to convert the majority of non-believers as to convince his walled up enclaves of followers.

    This is a worrying escalation of a desperado looking to escape, a situation that he has created, by his own brand of maniacal predictions.

  98. Question? If a woman gets kicked out of flds–is she to leave her children behind?

  99. Definitely, jobo. The children belong to the priesthood, not to her. She’s just the cow.

  100. Yes, it occured to me that the point is more to bring in his own people. So if there are spring floods in Illinois (good bet) then his “prophesies” are true and that shows not that Illinois is part of the Mississippi water system but that God is punishing Gentiles.

  101. I think blackbird is a zealot. Generally agree with him, but he gets carried away. I would verify everything he says against facts from other sources, but then, I try to do that anyway.

  102. CalJim, I did not see any mention of blood atonement and I can’t find those words on a search.

    So, Me Again, what do YOU think of Warren’s proclamation?

  103. How horrible Betty–!!! As I understand–a woman got kicked out along with all the men???

    This is sooo crazy….couldn’t the mother go to LE and tell them the flds would not let her have her children??

  104. I don’t know what happens if the man and one of his wives are kicked out. I don’t know if they seize the children from the parents or if the parents take the children in that case. The problem is if the biological father has the children, then it’s an ordinary custody case. I’m sure with all the reassignments that there are children who are not living with any parent or legal guardian. This was the case in the YFZ raid, there were some children who could not be matched to any parent who presented themselves or who submitted to DNA matching. Why THAT was not pursued and those children were just dumped back onto the ranch I will never understand.

    The problem is if they still are believers. Then they believe they are damned and unworthy and they will obey. Another problem is that they would have to trust the policemen and they would have to go to authorities that are not FLDS members but are local enough to have jurisdiction. I suspect most are in shock, like losing someone to death, only the person who is lost is you. So they may not do the wisest things in the first minutes, hours and days after they are kicked out.

    I would think that if children are being held by people who are not their biological parents or legal guardians that it would be easy to get help from LE; in fact, such a request is an opening for investigations that can lead to finding other crimes. But, to my knowledge, the number of women who have actually done that are very few and those who have succeeded are even fewer.

  105. Joba, if you are referring to Kelsey Jeffs, I don’t think she was married, much less had kids. What I’m wondering about are the other children of Leslie and Carole. I’m pretty sure Carole isn’t still in, but are their other kids? They have at least 3 more daughters and a son.

    Does anyone have any information about them?

  106. Clarett I have heard rumors about the FLDS having 2 places in Mexico. One is Benjamin Hill and the other is Rosarita near Ensenada.

  107. Betty, I think in the end, all the kids were matched up with their biological parents. That’s why Ellen Grace Young had to come out of the woodwork. She had to claim the 2 daughters she abandoned at the Ranch. Those are Nephi Barlow’s biological daughters also. Nephi is in Virginia and couldn’t be bothered to help.

  108. I think keeping control of the children is why only the men are usually kicked out. They keep the wife/wives so the priesthood can keep control of the children.

  109. Yes…I was thinking of Kelsey Jeffs…Great…glad there are no children…that mekes me feel better.

  110. Other than what I’ve read here, I know nothing about Kelsey Jeffs.

    However, on rare occasions, I know women and their female children ARE kicked out.

    Don’t even think about asking me for names!

  111. The Mormon Fundamentalism website reports that there are two FLDS communities in Mexico – I wonder if transport of “child brides” is occurring across our southern border as well

  112. On the Elizabethan English, I have collections of family letters and other writings that sound exactly the same. Especially when they contain “prophecies.” It’s kind of hilarious and sad at the same time.

  113. Betty, ‘blood atonement’ is the topic on Page 5. item 52.) “Thus shall I be justified, to send forth greater judgments…..for you reek in the shedding of innocent blood as a nation,…..for your immoral practices have led you to this murderous work which I have named before you, as worthy only to be swept off(blood atoned) my land of Zion”. Also, Page 6. item 57.) “And those who shed innocent blood commit an unpardonable sin”. Both of these topics raise the justification for taking the blood atonement action(s) to sweep away the unpardonable sin.

  114. Does anyone know anything about Joe Pledger? Was he exed? If so, did his wife stay?

  115. Just checked the Court of Appeals site and Emack has now filed his appeal to the bigamy charges.

  116. I don’t read it that way. Since God is talking, is the “I” in those sentences, then He can ‘sweep” us from the land in any fashion including floods, earthquakes, plagues, etc. That could include blood atonement, I suppose, but I don’t think it’s specifically stated.

  117. God always sounds sort of NY ashkenazi in my dreams. “Oy. Why do I bother trying to reach you, Betty, if you know more than I do? Give Me a break!” Really.

  118. Oy vey, I had no idea that you felt that way Betty.

  119. My subconscious is full of irony. And I am capable of laughing at myself, at least while I am asleep.

  120. Rulon Jessop Harker has a prior 5 weeks ago. Is this son of Sterling John who is the son of Parley Joseph Harker and Rhoda Alice Steed, or is there a Sterling junior? Or am I way off?

  121. Actually, that bit came in a dream about 5 years ago. I had just quit my job and had no intention of going back but was not sure what to do next. I prayed for help in finding a role of “service”. So later I was having an ordinary dream and then a Monty Python sort of paper god in a cloud comes into the dream and says “About your question. Learn Spanish.” And I said (in the dream) “What? Spanish? Why?” and then the paper god said the above answer and I woke up. I have no idea if that really is God trying to talk to me or just my subconscious trying to talk to me.

    I took a Spanish class but did not get very far; I really have no one to practice with. I have made serious efforts at getting volunteer work and have done some things, but so far no one has needed Spanish. So, who knows? Every attempt I have made at ordinary volunteer work has not lasted very long for reasons out of my control. For instance, I worked for about 6 months as the releif for the resident manager at a women’s shelter. She got burned out and quit rather suddenly and the woman who took her job only wanted me in there on Saturdays. I do art shows and such on Satrudays, but am free on weekdays. It was over an hour each way. So I quit going. I am now putting in applications trying to find a new gig. You have to have drug tests and police screening and all sorts of stuff, sometimes more than for a regular paying job.

  122. Rulon Jessop Harker is the son of Sterling John Harker and Phyllis Jessop. Although Sterling apparently has been out for a while. His wives were reassigned to Jerald Nathan Williams in 1999.

  123. FLDS still on the SLPC list of hate groups.

    Number of U.S. hate groups on the rise, report says

    By Elizabeth Stuart, Deseret News

  124. CAJim my understanding of FLDS brand of blood atonement is reserved for salvation of apostates?

    Naomie has propped Warren up to be a god even pronouncing he was god. Naomie has also condone his underage marriages.

    Naomie is an expert liar, great actress or under influence of a drug.

    Naomie is an accomplice and should go to jail too.

  125. Betty, you don’t know or appreciate the wording concerning ‘blood atonement’ has always been shaded in these type of quotes that I provided. These leaders and flock are not so dumb as to spell it out in ‘Gentile’ terms. Jeffs discussing innocent blood crying out for atonement [from Genesis Chapter 4] and “And according to the law almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission” [from Hebrews 9:22].

    Brigham Young quoted,”Love thy neighbor as thyself”, as the rationale that ‘blood atonement’ was the Lord’s meaning for a brother that had committed the unpardonable sin that need atonement. Young, also, reasoned that the Lord’s comment about no greater love than to give one’s life was fulfilled by committing ‘blood atonement’.

  126. You may be right, CalJim, those are good arguments. But I’m still not sure that qualifies legally as a threat, although you have me thinking that it was meant as one.

  127. info gal look up Orrin Porter Rockwell,’The Mormon Death Angel’ and the Mountain Meadow Massacre to see the templates for ‘blood atonement’ justified in other contexts than just ‘handling’ apostates. For your appreciation you should look into Iron and Washington County, Utah which was where this massacre occurred.

  128. How does this sound to you ? – from WSJ’s dictations:

    “The Lord gave me a special revelation concerning her and others, that when a woman commits adultery she can’t even be
    considered to be restored until she pays the penalty, which would be into the next life, unless the Lord gives a direct commandment.”

  129. Oh, I believe that he ordered blood atonement on that one woman, forgot her name; Winston insists that Jeffs instructed him to turn her out of his home and she would be dealt with, that Winston would not have her blood on his hands.

  130. I went back and reviewed blackbird’s posts and I believe that my first assumption about blackbird’s identity was wrong. I retract my previous statement and offer my apology.

  131. WSJ’s dictation reflects one of the ‘unpardonable sins’ along with adultery (by wives) there was miscegenation, murder and refusal or divorce from celestial marriage. Family members were normally expected to enforce the atoning and judicial or ecclesiastical remedy(s) were, also, suitable in certain cases. “Danites” could be employed against both chosen and ‘Gentiles’ alike, especially if ordered by the prophet. These are the rules within the dictates of a theocracy and excluded from any democratic instituition or models.

  132. Not to be outdone by Warren Jeffs, word is out that Charlie Sheen wants to blood atone his enemies..

  133. Love the proclamaition by warren jeffs as Jesus Christ, to Obama and everyone,, but he never signed it, it was good old lyle jeffs who signed,,, now This is a HOOT!!! LOL

  134. Warren Jeffs is full of Hot Air, and so are any people who follow this nut bag. Ignorant people follow ignorant people

  135. The girl that Jeffs sought blood atonement for was named Vanessa Rohbock. She fled to Winston’s compound, and Blackmore refused to cooperate with the request.

  136. Thanks, S. Yes, that was what I was remembering.

  137. That particular dictation was not about Vanessa. It’s a vague reference but his language is in keeping with other more direct language about blood atonement as preached in meetings.

  138. So, if he’s serious, why has he not taken action? Elissa seems an obvious target, and I’m sure she’s received threats, but she’s still with us, thank goodness. I thought blood atonement was for those who WANTED to be saved but had done some horrible sin, not for the godless.

  139. Hmm. In the Nat Geo special on Winston, Blackmore claims that the there was an indirect threat of blood atonement for Vanessa Rohbock. That isn’t true ?

  140. @S: Yes, I’ve heard that too. I don’t personally ‘know’ if it’s true, but I believe it.

    @Betty: True religious (Mormon) blood atonement was always supposed to be for “the willing.” My understanding is as you’ve said. However, we heard lots of more vengeful versions of it – especially directed to WOMEN – about the price of adultery.

  141. From what I understand or recall regarding the Vanessa Rohbock story, she sought refuge or absolution for her “sin” (consorting with a young man) and Warren Jeffs ordered Winston to compel Vanessa to return to the US while making a veiled threat or reference to possible blood atonement. Blackmore would not comply, much to his credit. Is this correct ?

  142. Correct. That’s my recollection too.

  143. Claret if ever I’d heard of that 2010 Oct? drivel I’d surely have forgotten it once I’d slept.

  144. It’s my recollection too. At the time she came back she was deemed to be safe from Warren because if something happened to her, he’d be the prime suspect

  145. ‘Blood Atonement’, Adam-God teaching, United Order, Celestial Marriage and the Mark of Cain are the five distinguishing tenets of Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints. I caution anyone to not take these beliefs lightly or out of context because more recent events have born out that an unsettling escalation to act-out has been threatened and the seriousness of these warnings may prove to be all too real.

    The harms experienced within the Bountiful, BC of both Warrentite and the Blackmore factions are bad enough without speculating over unfulfilled past statements that are better left unrepeated/forgotten.

  146. Oh, I believe that it’s possible that he will take such an action. The danger with preaching a belief like that is that the impact of the sermon decreases when it’s repeated; it’s like telling your child he’s going to get a spanking if he’s bad and then when he’s bad, you never do it. Eventually, either you have to take that action, or you lose the control. Control seems to be the whole gig with Warren. I think that who ever keeps an eye on such groups who threaten government officials should certainly take them seriously. My point is that I think you would have a hard time proving in court that this legally constitutes a threat of bodily harm from one human to another. I realize that the definition of threat or intimidation, legally, an be vague and can vary from one country or state to another.

  147. I’m still searching for a gravesite for blood-atoned cousin Phillip Klingensmith.

  148. I just raid the manifesto
    it is so very sad that a) Warren Jeffs believes this stuff (if he does) and that there are people who live their lives through it..

    In some respects it seems to me that despite “keeping sweet” and suppressing emotions the whole group lives in a collective emotional tension and turmoil.

  149. Here is my concern on the trafficking. 1/9/02 from NCMEC “Thank you for contacting the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. The cases were forwarded to the Washington County SO (Sheriff’s Office)…every report we receive and process will be reviewed by federal law enforcement agencies.” This report was on girls being taken to Canada from Colorado City and Hildale. Nothing was done.

    After these efforts the trafficking activities only increased…will they be stopped now? Warren is back in complete control…things will only get worse.

  150. Every man or woman I know who has escaped the FLDS or been kicked out suffers from PTSD. I’ve known some that really have had a tough time mentally and emotionally.

  151. From Vancouver Sun ”
    If so, how could it happen that two girls were allegedly smuggled from Bountiful to the U.S. in 2005 – while the community was being investigated – and the girls have never been officially listed as missing?

    This could only happen because Bountiful considers itself outside and above our Canadian law.”

    No wonder they think they are above the law, they are above the law, who has ever been arrested for this abuse? Even when Blackmore admitted to the Canadian Press that he “married” a girl in his words “just shy of her 15th birthday.” In other words, 14, was he arrested or given a good ol boy pat on the back.

  152. Sorry but the RCMP arent’ exactly the Texas Rangers.

  153. CAJim, we can’t discount the possibility of such an event but please don’t make the statement that they will. I know many of the people and can tell you that some would certainly follow warren to hell and back but, imo, they are few.

  154. OK Me,again I said ‘…may prove to be all too real’ which is conditioned by a hypothetical and I said that what has happened in the past is better left “unrepeated/forgotten”. Nowhere did I state in your words, “…that they will”.

    Have you ever read about the Temple, “Danites” or the Mountain Meadow Massacre?

  155. I kind of agree with Me Again on this one. With each increasing level of demands from Warren, some folks drop out. We know that some people have objected strenuously to having their daughter’s married off very young; some have left and some have been kicked out over it. I think that murder would be even more of a barrier, as it should be.

  156. I want to second what Betty said …

    as well as MA saying, “I know many of the people and can tell you that some would certainly follow warren to hell and back but, imo, they are few.”

  157. GrannyToad, I think he moved from Cedar City to the Virgin City / Rockville area after the MMM. This web site has a lot of info on Washington County graves –

    This is also a great site but not specific to Washington County –

  158. Granny,it sounds like he may have died in Old Mexico

    “In 1875, following a plea bargain he turned state’s evidence and testified in the first trial of John D. Lee. He was in Beaver in 1876 for Lee’s second trial but did not testify. Following the 1876 Lee trial, Klingensmith reportedly moved to Arizona, then to Sonora, Mexico. The sources disagree as to when and how Klingensmith died, some holding that he died violently in 1881; others, that he died of natural causes some time later.”

    His grave may be hard to find.

  159. Granny, check this out. Go to the bottom section of this link and read what the old Nevada newspapers have to say about Philip Klingensmith’ death.


    Vol. ? Pioche, Lincoln Co., Nevada, July 22, 1881. No. ?

    The Destroying Angels
    Accomplish a Mission They are sent to do.

    News has reached Pioche that Bishop Philip Klingon Smith, at one time a man of high standing and great influence in the Mormon Church, and the exposer of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and the names of the men who participated in the bloody deed, is dead. His body was found in a prospect hole in the State of Sonora, Mexico, and a letter from there, which was received in the vicinity of Pioche, states that the mystery surrounding the body indicates that Smith had been murdered. Smith died just as he expected, for on his return from Beaver in 1876, after testifying in the trial of John D. Lee, we met Smith in town, in a sort of secluded spot, and during the conversation Smith remarked: “I know that the Church will kill me, sooner or later, and I am as confident of that fact as that I am sitting on this rock. It is only a question of time; but I’m going to love as long as I can.”

  160. Yes I’d read those things and he may well have been chucked down a hole or rock wedge for the packrats to clean his bones. Otoh how much of the area did (whomever) still consider Sonora at any particular time eh?

    Originally they weren’t to be mining, then later only for coal, iron – necessaries. Was Klingensmith an ironworker?

    Still looking for the place that’s marked this is the spot.

  161. That’s what happens if you open your mouth and tell truth. Guess it’s how he was raised.

  162. Just 2 more tips for GrannyToad RE her cousin Philip and then I’ll shut up about it and get back to the subject at hand. If you aren’t interested in Granny’s genealogy, then skip this post.

    Granny, I found this line on a web site – In the S. F. Call, July 30, 1881, it is stated that Bishop Klingensmith was murdered in Mexico.

    Maybe you can search on this “S. F. Call newspaper and find out more. I have no idea what the S. F. stands for.

    There was a book written in 1995 by a lady and maybe you can find her and email her and ask if she knows where he’s buried. I don’t think you’ll want to splurge to buy her book to see if it’s in there because her book is selling for $200 – YIKES

    BACKUS, ANNA JEAN, Mountain Meadows Witness. The Life and Times of Bishop Philip Klingensmith.
    Spokane:, The Arthur H. Clark Company,, 1995. First edition, limited to 1000 copies Frontis., Illustrated with ports., photographs, maps, appendix, biblio., index. 9 1/2 x 6 3/4. Red cloth, gilt spine lettering. = As new in yellow, illustrated dust jacket.

    Offered for US$ 200.00 by: Sun Mountain Books – Book number: 1099.1
    See more books from our catalog: Mormons

  163. Honestly, I don’t get too much into the historical stuff. I mean the Catholic church for instance hasn’t been all that kind to nonbelievers and Jews throughout history. I really don’t care what happened in the 1800s. In my mind, Joseph Smith was just another charismatic religious leader that couldn’t help but use his power to satisfy his lust, like a lot of other religious leaders, and Senators etc. What I concern myself with is the crimes happening today. I’m not saying blood atonement is out of the realm but more than likely any violence will stem from (1) internal battles such as the time the guy in the AUB stabbed someone in the neck in church because he was angry that he couldn’t get a wife assigned to him. (2) Or someone that takes Jeffs rants about the evil world to heart and becomes a terrorist.

    My major concern is seeing the abusive illegal activities end. Wtih Jeffs at the helm I doubt they will. How many times have they said, “oh we don’t do that anymore” and continue doing it and take Utah and Arizona and B.C. for the fools they have been.

  164. A few years ago – probably 4 or 5 – Winston wrote on his web site about Vanessa Rohbock and Warren’s threat of blood atonement on her.

    Up until this time, Winston constantly denied that Warren had ordered Vanessa blood atoned.

    I guess that Warren’s continued maniacal and cruel treatment of people Winston knew and loved finally caused Winston to write about this situation and post it on his web site.

    Unfortunately, if I saved Winston’s comments they are on my old computer. But I did read what he wrote about Vanessa’s plight and Winston admitted on his web site that Warren had ordered Vanessa blood atoned.

    Winston’s web site is no longer online, so I can’t go find what he actually said about it to post it here.

  165. Maybe Jeffs ousted some of those so that when they are called to testify they will be hostile witnesses. Maybe Jeffs ousted some of them for getting too powerful, Willie, for instance. Maybe he ousted some because he has the money now and doesn’t need their financial help. Maybe he blames them or wants to place blame for all the screwups and this is one way to get the faithful to think someone else messed up. Some of them stepped into the void while he was in prison and he wants to make sure there is only one leader. Why the two mayors? Again he is destroying the power structure. Blaming them for the fact that CC and Hildale are falling apart. Who will he appoint for mayors next? I’m sure Zittig thought it was a lifetime appointment, LOL.

  166. The Colorado City basketball team made it to the Arizona division 1A final 4 in their first season as an official member of the AIA.

    Hoosiers, anyone?

  167. Please do not paint Winston as some loving figure. He worked kids as slaves and made millions. Elissa Walls sister had to work in this post and pole factory for free in her long dress at 16 until she agreed to marry. She was trafficked to Canada for slave labor. The only reason Blackmore posted that was too look good and get more people to join him. Also when Winston was in power in Bountiful he was the one that made the education limit at 10th grade. He got ousted after he said he saw Jesus and he was all buff and blonde like a surfer Jesus. Blackmore was a trustee on the UEP when it was sued for stealing people’s homes without paying, later he lied and said he was never FLDS. He lied about his wives and then admitted to marrying 9 girls, 14,15 and 16. One girl was very unhappy after marrying him, she was crying to her brother, now you will see her talking about how great polygamy is. Winston Blackmore is a trafficker himself with places in both Idaho and Canada. He is a huge liar. On his website he posted that Kelly Fischer’s daughter should not cooperate but keep the family sacred secrets, there is nothing sacred about raping your stepdaughter. P-L-E-A-S-E. Winks made his fortune by denying education and working children in dangerous occupations.

  168. Yes, thank goodness Warren and Rulon has been in jail as he wouldn’t let anyone play sports.

  169. This is interesting, from the Standard Times:

    Officials at the Reagan County Jail in Big Lake said Wednesday Jeffs is refusing to accept visitors during March. Jeffs offered no reason for the order, they said.

  170. Probably most of kids on the team do not come for Warren’s loyal followers, most of those boys are working in construction instead of in high school. After all some girl might get googly eyed seeing a young handsome kid in sports and forget she is supposed to marry some old geezer. Those 11 kids are probably 2nd warders (although they also send boys to work “in the trades”) gentiles and apostates. I am glad though that CC finally relented and let them have some sports.

  171. You are right Blackbird, the only reason Winston is looking good right now is because the concentration is on the Jeffs group, not on his group. Let him think he’s free and clear, it will make it all the sweeter when he falls too.

  172. Share the Light is not on line because he said things just as Warren did in his dictations that could have brought the law down on his head.

  173. I bet Warren will no longer be receiving visitors since he learned that FOIA requests were being made about his “guests”

  174. Share the Light is still up on the web in cache somewhere, it just needs to be found.

  175. S F Call is San Francisco Call indexed newspaper database from 1860s by Falkinbury, email:

  176. Enh. Warren can call out collect any time during phone usage days/hours.

  177. For instance on his website he said every male could have a vote, if they had “donated” work. In otherwords, only those young men who worked for him for free would get a vote in his group.

    Also he was in contact with a girls school in Kenya. It brought the attention of a human rights organization trying to help teenaged girls in Kenya escape polygamy and rape.

  178. True Granny, and he doesn’t have to leave his cell to harass his flock by phone. If he receives visitors then he has to walk to the visitation area and actually look at the person.

  179. Regarding the link Anonymous 8:26 posted about Granny’s cousin,
    I didn’t read everything (it’s all about the Mountain Meadows Massacre), but I got a chuckle out of one phrase:

    “…that hoary-headed sinner, Brigham Young”

    There was some mighty descriptive writing in those old newspapers.

    But the irony I found in this entry did not escape me as applied to our current FLDS situation – part of John D. Lee’s confession:

    “I have made the effort to bear my confinement with fortitude and resignation, well knowing that most of those engaged in this unfortunate affair were led on by religious influences, commonly called fanaticism, and nothing but their devotion to God, and their duty to him, as taught to them by their religion and their church leaders, would ever have induced them to have committed the outrageous and unnatural acts, believing that all who participated in the lamentable transaction, or most of them, were acting under orders that they considered it their duty — their religious duty — to obey.

    “Fanaticism… outrageous and unnatural acts?” Definitely “lamentable.”

  180. S, I read your link to

    Footnote #31 is rather scary – “[31] Reportedly Warren Jeffs excommunicated Winston Blackmore over his refusal to stone an out of order wife who had moved from Utah to Bountiful. (Personal communication with an FLDS member who wishes to remain anonymous.)”

    Maybe this was over the blood atonement issue regarding Vanessa Rohbock. One of Winston’s ex-wives told me that his children had tried to stone her to death.

    I had never heard this term used in modern day society and I just got chills when she said it. Stoned to death – OMG!

  181. On the Exings from Prison thread… Wow, that’s quite a list of men Warren kicked out!

    Sounds like Lyle’s on a teeter-totter… or barely balancing on a high-wire.

  182. Rulon Jessop Harker is the son of Sterling John Harker and Phyllis Jessop. Although Sterling apparently has been out for a while. His wives were reassigned to Jerald Nathan Williams in 1999.

    Anonymous said this on March 2, 2011 at 11:04 AM

    Isn’t Jerald Williams the guy who was first in charge of the Pringle, SD compound before Warren exed him and replaced him with Ben Johnson?

    So, if Warren kicked out Jerald Williams, then who has custody of Sterling Harker’s wives now?

    What a MESS this little skinny piss-ant pedophile profit has caused for so many people!

    Wake up FLDS! Warren Jeffs is NOT a man of God!

  183. Ahmen sister, or brother! Preachin to the choir.

  184. So, Warren isn’t seeing ANY visitors this month.

    He probably needs to devote every minute to his writing and phone calls.

    Beware the Ides of March!

  185. blackbird I was not “painting Winston as some loving figure.” I was just commenting that after many years Winston finally admitted on the Internet about the blood atonement order made by Warren against Vanessa Rohbock after Winston had denied it for many years.

    Yes, I realize that Winston is a POS and cut from the same cloth as Warren.

    But I now also see why Betty commented this AM about your being a bit over zealous. Chill out a bit.

  186. Jerald Nathsn Williams’ mother comes down the Blackmore family tree.


    If this video link works a story on Jeffs threats to President Obama and Secret Service investigation.

  188. WOW!! great video…looks like the weenie has opened a can of worms…oops!!!!

    And children signing the letter….??? insane…

  189. A Texan: Thanks for the video link. It did work and I enjoyed viewing it. Hope the secret service and the fbi do some serious investigation of this nut case.

  190. maybe people who have been fighting this for a long time tend towards being zealots. I can forgive that; it’s a lot better than being complacent.

  191. Does anyone know of an internet based site where you can load videos up to 30 minutes in duration ? You Tube only lets me load videos which are 10 minutes long. I have the video affidavits by ex FLDS members from the Canadian Reference Case.

  192. Blackbird – I appreciate your posts and I don’t think you are a zealot. Keep posting here.

  193. My suggestion is Google video. I’ll look into it and see what I can find out.

  194. Thanks PT, you are INCREDIBLE !

  195. I appreciate your posts too blackbird.

  196. I appreciate blackbird being here also. I like to have diverse view points. I even agreed with Me Again yesterday!

  197. I saw that Betty. Will wonders never cease ! Since your concept of God is that He is Ashkenazi, I say Baruch HaShem !

  198. Google video no longer allows uploading. Back to square one.

  199. Well, my concept of God apparently also owes a lot to Monty Python, so I’m not sure what to make of that.


  201. Wow. Sounds like he’s trying to cut off any source of income. Weird.

  202. feb 24 show referencing suicide pack Kingston group

  203. Warren is apparently trying to further isolate his flock from the evil gentile world. Really sad and also one of the major indications of a personality cult and dictatorship.

  204. Well, the scary thing is if for whatever reason they all gather behind that new 10-12 foot wall compound, the next thing we could hear on the news is another Heaven’s Gate.

    From my source inside the community I was told the righteous will be lifted up and that their minds and spirits will go up and their bodies will remain here.

    Did I say scary????

  205. Warren S. Jeffs has declared the ‘End-Time’ is elapsing and his warning letters to our elected Congressmen and President show this emphatic message of doom. Unlike past prophecies that have become non-events, this time Warren has proclaimed to our Nation that his revelation is for worldwide notification. This escalates the prophecy to outsiders and ‘Gentiles’, he even states that he will be ridiculed but his forecast cataclysms but rather he runs the risk of being perceived as a crank fanatic that has lost any credibility.

  206. Oh my, almost wish I had not read that. Now I am really worried for these folks.

  207. I am really worried that one day they may drink the Kool Aid

  208. Totally scary. Those in and around the crick need to be on guard.

  209. A great article on Doris Hanson–%E2%80%98It-was-a-rough-life%E2%80%99?instance=secondary_stories_left_column

  210. Hopefully Lyle dent know how to make the koolaid

  211. Doris Hanson at ‘Whatloveisthis’ website plans a show on April 7, 2011 that will spotlight the Canadian Polygamy reference case, with her planned guest John Llewelyn. This timing will be right around the time that these BC Supreme Court closing statements should be reaching their climax. I am really look forward to this show and applaud Hanson’s stalwart and fearless coverage of poloygamy and all forms of it’s hideous fundamentalist mutations.

  212. OK, S. Dr question. If I suddenly have spots in front of my eyes, flashing things on the edge of my peripehral vision and it continues for several days, should I go to the doctor? And if so, what kind of doctor? There is no pain, no headache and other than feeling a little disoriented, I feel completely normal.

    Please, no hippie flash back jokes, I’ve heard enough already from my family.

  213. Amazing… no headache!? Those are exactly my symptoms — except they last for only 20-30 minutes before a debilitating migraine crashes me.

    Sorry Betty… I’m not Dr. S… and that certainly doesn’t help you… but I couldn’t resist responding to the similarity of symptoms.

  214. Betty.
    is your blood pressure in the right range??

  215. Betty, it sounds like you are experiencing the “prodromal stage” of a migraine headache.

    I am glad to hear that there is no pain or headache involved with your “flashing lights” episodes.

    But, I am not a doctor.

  216. I agree, migraine incoming.

  217. Never had a migraine. I’ll check my np when I get home. It’s only in one eye. I am at risk for glaucoma. Think i’ll make am eye dr appt if it lasts to tomorrow. Thanks friends.

  218. Elizabeth Smart who was forced into a polygamist “marriage” at 14 has received an award from the DVF, a foundation the awards outstanding women. Mitchell, a Warren Jeffs like independent polygamist and his wife Barzee have been convicted of the crime.

    From Good Morning America:

    Here’s more from SLC newspaper:

  219. O my ashkenazi shappee old family neighbor & inlaws whatnot comes to mind.

    Who let Warren watch Monty Python?

    Get the koolaid away from the crikkers.

  220. Now we know why Warren et al didn’t want the faithful to have tv or internet access, to be exposed to what fools he’s making of them.

  221. Betty – Please see a neurologist, ophthalmologist, or neuro-ophthalmogist STAT

  222. S. Will do. This is scaring me. Thanks all.

    Sorry for the misspelled, anonymous post earlier. I was posting from my phone while out running errands.

  223. And, BTW, separating the body from the mind/spirit is what we usually refer to as dead. Yes, that’s scary.

  224. You are describing scotomata – the differential diagnosis is broad and not limited to migrainous disorders. You need to have an examination of the internal structures of your eye with an ophthalmoscope in addition possibly to other investigations.

  225. here is a polygamist in the news for suspected murder of stepson, also, as described, predicting the end of times, a race war, and relying on the work of adherents for his support

  226. A CC resident says s/he is certain the FBI is already somewhere in town. S/he’s also heard a “mass amount of guns” were purchased from a Las Vegas gun show which are being held “in that new compound.”

    “It’s really tense here. I’m in the library and everytime a FLDS woman walks in everyone gets quiet because of course all everyone is talking about is the shenanigans that are going around.”

    Boy, I’d love to be a sentient speck of dust sitting on an FBI guy’s shoulder while he’s canvassing the Crick.

  227. I would hope they can freely have use of the internet in libraries if they have been prohibited from doing so in their homes.

  228. Oh to be a fly on the wall in that new compound.

  229. Young girl escapes forced polygamy after her parents arranged marriage in Pakistan. She ran away at age 13 to escape the fate that many girls her age in the FLDS have met. Girls parents are Islam.

  230. Texan, I am not surprised by this. Someone informed me on Facebook that a 17 yr old Muslim teenager from upstate NY was promised in marriage by her father to an older man in order pay off a debt. Coercive marriage and coercive polygyny are not unheard of among Muslims in the US and Canada.

  231. Chief Justice of the British Columbia Supreme Court, Robert Bauman will consider new allegations of nine girls smuggled into the United States from Canada for the purpose of underage marriage….


  232. There are youtube videos that are up to 2 hours, but I couldn’t tell you how they do it. Most uploaders separate it into 10 minute parts.

  233. I must have missed this “new compound” thing. I’m taking it that there is a new, walled section of the Creek? It has houses in it or a big house or????

  234. I drove past the new buildings they were building at the time. part of it is about 4-5 triplexes, and then there were a couple larger buildings. I believe they were moving the storehouse from the old FMJ (Fred Jessop) enclosure to these other buildings. all of this is where the community gardens were, and is enclosed by 10-12 foot cinderblock walls.

    one of my friends also mentioned something about them trying to become more self-sufficient and not relying on the outside world. it’s all coming to an end after all, so that could be some of what’s behind the dairy closure to the public. they’re probably trying to “draw closer” to each other, and the spirit of the lord or whatever.

  235. I think those 4 plexes were there when I was at the Crick last summer. Someone needs to post some more pictures of the new compound.

  236. Goodness, would you be able to convince your insider that if that was indeed said, that now is the time to break ranks and tell what we heard?

  237. I meant “tell what HE heard?”

  238. Yep, I’m with Betty and in the dark about a new “compound”. Is it in the Creek? More info please!

  239. Betty, May be macular degeneration. My 59 year old sister was just diagnosed with it.

  240. Betty, I also have a family history of glaucoma and go to my ophthalmologist each year for him to do a bunch of tests – exams to measure my eyeball, range of vision tests, etc.

    He now knows that I just have an unusually shaped eyeball instead of glaucoma. Nonetheless, if you say you are predisposed to glaucoma (with a family history of glaucoma), you need to keep on top of it.

    Please see one very soon. Tests are never easy or cheap, but I hope you’ll “pass the eye exam” with an A+.

  241. Cement, I’m not sure what you’re asking. Tell who what s/he heard? The FBI is in town.

  242. Yes Anon @11:06 PM the new triplexes were built over the late 2009 early 2010 winter season. To me they look like residences instead of any type of storehouse.

    I do believe there is now a new “Costco-sized” storehouse.

    It is amazing that the Twin Cities Water Works said the aquifers wouldn’t support the apostates trying to get water hookups (Ron and Jinger Cooke who tried for several years to get city water) but the new FLDS family 4-plexes got water lickety split.

    Oh, what discrimination! Will the new Arizona AG Tom Horne follow through with the religious discrimination/civil rights lawsuits Terry Goddard started?

  243. The “compound” is in the Creek and is being called that because of the 10-12 foot cinder block walls enclosing a bunch of new ‘plexes and a huge new storehouse. Yehaaa6 just described it a few posts back. I’ve also heard it guarded 24/7.

    So, it seems to me there’s a move to isolate the most righteous from the growing wicked others living there… apostates, gentiles, second-warders, not-so-righteous, and a number of newly exiled folks who dared to say, “Hell no! I won’t go!”

    Welll… maybe they didn’t say it quite like that.

  244. Its just that I hate to see people taken in by Winston’s good ol’ boy act.

    By the way, Warren is pretty safe in sayin that there will be storms, last year in the U.S. there were over 1,500 reported tornadoes. Over 1,200 were confirmed. That doesn’t include hurricanes, Pacific storms (usually hurricane from the northern Pacific are called storms though they can be hurricane force) and local violent thunder storms. Can’t go wrong in predicting there will be storms. As for the earthquake, everyone in Salt Lake Valley or Utah Valley knows about the Wasatch fault. Could happen at any time. Anyway, to his followers the first tornado or hurricane will be because Jeff’s called it down.

  245. It’s really hard to know how serious to take this talk about leaving our bodies behind. We don’t need another Heaven’s Gate. Even before I left, certain rumblings were going around that those that were lifted up would be translated (in FLDS terms, their bodies changed so they can’t be harmed or killed, but remain on earth and interact with others) This is different than saying we will leave our old bodies behind, and probably more benign to preach translation.

    P.S. More on translation. We have been taught that Cain is translated as a punishment, and has tried to commit suicide but is unable to; to this day, he still wanders the earth a vagabond

  246. Warren did not excommunicate Winston for refusing to stone someone. Same reason he is excommunicating people today. Warren excommunicated Winston because Winston got too powerful and also that thing he was telling his followers about how he saw Jesus. Its all about power. Winston was already prepared to set up his own cult and Warren knew it. Power and money and sex….

  247. Cement, weren’t the three Nephites translated too? They are the good guys who wander the earth.

    Oh… and the whole City of Enoch. It’s translated out there in the ether somewhere but it will be brought back to take back its place in the Gulf of Mexico.

    Ooooo… maybe THAT’S why Warren chose Texas… to be closer to the City of Enoch when it returns after the destructions.

    Okay… bedtime for me… I’m getting a little flippant. But it’s true; it’s all true! 😛

  248. I’m not a zealot. I’m just keeping my eye on the ball. Don’t care what Joseph Smith did or the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Its wasted time to get upset over that. Just like I could get upset over the Spanish Inquisition or on the otherhand try to make sure abusing priests no longer abuse children. One is more important than the other to me.

  249. I don’t think that you’re a zealot, keep on posting, Blackbird !

  250. I do this for a reason. I am goal oriented. Yes, I did write to the Department of Justice this week. Yes, I know I’m probably on some list, maybe they even look at my emails. I don’t care, I don’t break the law or do anything obscene. Lots of people have come and gone and come again. Its like a relay race, the torch is passed on. For the sake of those who can’t. As far as we have come it isn’t far enough.

  251. What happened to the [sacred] cows at the dairy? Or are the dairy products going to be for ‘in-house use only’? Only the faithfull get milk n’ cheese?

  252. Blackbird I would agree with your non-interest in Mormon history as being very relevant to the situations we face today. On the other hand this specific group of faithful are not LDS but rather Orthodox or Fundamental LDS therefore the past, especially back to Joseph Sith, Jr. and Brigham Young is definitely prologue as to what we should expect from todays Fundamentalist LDS members as to how and why they are different and are thinking in todays situations. For instance, Joseph Smith Jr. instituted the United Order and grasping the UEP Trust is beyond our present day thinking if we ignore Smith’s United Order. Additionally, the tenet of ‘blood atonement’ was never fully revealed in Brigham Young’s time, yet very real and shocking acts of violence were manifested because of this strongly held fundamentalist teaching at the Temple. The Battle of Crooked Creek and attempted assasination of Missouri Governor Lilliburn Boggs reminds us of history to avoid a repeat today.

  253. You go Blackbird. I wrote letters and made phone calls this week too.

  254. A little TIC and a smile to go with your coffee (or whatever) this morning:

    Some guys study law in the joint, others lift weights; Jeffs excommunicates people.

  255. Great, funny article E Texas..thanks…ok..gotta start my day.

  256. That gave a much needs chuckle this morning.

    Dutson was in Court yesterday claiming to be indigent. Haven’t heard the ruling yet. I need to check on how Leroy’s appeal from the court of appeals calling him a liar is going. Maybe he needs for the Texas Supreme Court to also call him a liar before he feels complete.

  257. I DID apologize for the zealot comment. I thought from some things you said that you were Jay Beswick. I went back over your comments and decided that was a mistake. However, it’s the policy of this site to not speculate on the true identity of posters, so I was doubly wrong.

  258. I thought macular degeneration was gradual.

    I use the term ‘predisposed’ for lack of any other term to use. From my understanding, glaucoma refers to the destruction of the optic nerve from pressure, not to the conditions which cause it. Not only do I have a family history of glaucoma, I have two of the conditions which can cause it in one eye and one of them in the other. Without intervention, I will almost certainly go blind. I saw that same doctor and had tests just last fall and he was pleased that the situation had not progressed noticabley. Hopefully, when I call them in a few minutes, they will be able to get me in. The problem with specialists in my (rural) area is that it’s usually a wait of weeks, if not months to get in to see them unless you are referred by the ER.

  259. If they can’t get you in right away, given the seriousness, I’d say go the ER route !

  260. i think all (but trolls) comments are welcome

    blackbird your analogy to a relay race struck me as excellent

    from the short 2 years i have been following it seems that the leadership of the flds can “hunker” down and financially and emotionally bleed those litigating for access to children etc. dry

  261. Many doomsday or end of time cults end up separating themselves from the rest of humanity to avoid the dire calamaties that will befall everyone but them. Some of them have gone to caves, underground bunkers, etc. The flds are following that same pattern with the fenced in yfz and the new walled off compounds at Short Creek. The closing of the dairy and other businesses to non flds people shows further isolation.

    Warren Jeffs thinks his duty is to prepare a rightous group of people for the second coming of Christ. I suspect that in his mind the expulsions and isolation are necessary steps to get a group that is untainted by the gentile world.

  262. I think the history is important in interpreting the statements of Jeffs and other officials. He mentioned the “assassination” of Joseph Smith in his letter to the president and how there had not yet been vengeance for that. So if it’s on his mind, it’s useful for us to understand it as well.

  263. I now have an appointment with the ophthalmologist at 1PM. My husband is going to drive. Thanks for your kindness, folks!

  264. Betty, Glad you are getting it checked out. Hope it is nothing serious.

  265. Holy cow, cement, I don’t think I was ever taught about Cain being translated as a punishment, that is super creepy. Is this commonly taught?

    I don’t know how much to be creeped out by the mind, spirit/body thing because I am keeping in mind that the fundamentalist groups have been gathering to be “translated” or “lifted up” (even some of the AUB affiliates) off and on for years. And when it doesn’t happen they are told they were not worthy enough. But there’s never been a koolaid type incident that I know of. And suicide is a definite “sin.” But there’s never been anybody quite like WSJ before either. Chills.

  266. The doctrine about Cain being translated as a punishment is not taught in the mainstream LDS church.

  267. Elizabeth Smart honored with $50K Vital Voices Award

    By Viviane Vo-Duc, Deseret News

    SALT LAKE CITY — Elizabeth Smart is among four women to receive a Vital Voices Award for her courage and strength.

    Designer Diane von Furstenberg announced this year’s winners of the second annual DVF Awards, which honor women have the courage to fight, the power to survive and the leadership to inspire.

    Smart was chosen as the public figure award winner. The winners each receive $50,000 to help further their cause. The awards will be given out March 11.

  268. Cements 12:54 AM posting concerning translation and a end-time ‘Lifting Up’, both have their teaching within the New Testament by St. Paul :

    1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleeep[Christians alive at the End-Time], but we shall all be changed –[translation]. 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality”, etc.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17, “Then we who are alive and remain[after being translatede] shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord”.

    So there is a basis for translation and the ‘Lifting/Caught Up’ in the Bible.

  269. Sounds to me too much like muslim twelvers and their hoodoo mahdi is among us baloney.

  270. Baptist don’t believe in marriage after life or hanging around on earth, but, do believe when we are all called up we will rise from graves and our bodies will ascend to heaven. Everyone wants to go together so they are all buried in the same little church cemetery. I never did understand going to heaven at death and body coming later. Guess I wasn’t paying attention.

  271. Heah, I’d like to place a big ‘Shout out’ to FMS in Hildale, keep those calls coming AT&T is registering everyone. Better yet you should mail me something and the FBI can get involved.

    Ya’ll Have A Nice Day! Yah, Hear?


    Anonymous said this on March 4, 2011 at 10:44 AM

    Yes saw this posted on blog yesterday, here’s more from the Trib, always slow and a day late on polygamy related crime stories, Trib article mentions Mitchell wanted seven wives, but he actually wanted many more, if one reads the court testimony posted in older threads on this blog.

  273. Betty, My sisters came on suddenly. While watching the news
    on a Sunday evening, she saw neon ” whirlygigs” and the lines of
    news at the bottom of the screen zigzaged up and down.
    There are two kinds of macular degeneration, wet and dry.
    She has to have injection in her eye every 6 weeks for now.

  274. I don’t want to think about injections in your eyes.

    Anyway, the diagnosis is hemorrhagic posterior vitreous detachment, no damage to the retina, come back in 5 days and we will take another look.

  275. Vitreous detachment is a very commonly observed cause of scotomata – from Medscape –

    Epidemiology of Posterior Vitreous Detachment –
    Several studies have looked at the epidemiology of PVD. Foos found that PVD was present in 23.2% of autopsy cases.[15] In a more elderly population of patients (average age was 83.4 years), Snead et al found a higher prevalence of PVD at 57%.[6]

    Two factors have been found to be important in determining the onset of PVD in a healthy subject: age and refractive error. Studies have demonstrated a clear increasing prevalence of PVD with age.[16-18] Posterior vitreous detachment was rare in emmetropic subjects under the age of 40 years, and the prevalence steadily increased through the decades. The reported prevalence in the 9th decade ranged from 57% to 86%.[16,17] Therefore, in a significant proportion of elderly subjects, the vitreous remains attached, indicating that PVD is not inevitable with aging and syneresis.

  276. Just checked with the Court and Warren has a hearing on 3/30 @10 and Wendell, Merril and Leroy have hearings on 3/31 @10. Could be 2 interesting days.

  277. You know, if Warren had thrown in some funds for Obama’s healthcare reform, he might have had a shot at release, otherwise, probably not.

  278. Found this on Today in Mormon History – March 04

    Brigham Young “remarked that Joseph Smith Junior had predicted 20 years ago today that 70 years from that time not one stone would remain on another in the City of New York.”

    — 150 years ago today – Mar 4, 1861

  279. PT, that’s too bad that all four of them can’t have their hearings at 10 AM on the same day. It would be really interesting to see the body language of Wendell and Merril when they faced Warren the Ouster.

    Regardless, they should be a couple of lively days in the San Angelo courtroom.

  280. What will be the most lively is whether or not Merril and Wendell will show. Apparently Leroy Steed Johnson hasn’t been exed yet (that we know of).

  281. Sons of Perdition is playing at the historic Texas Theater in Dallas starting today through Wednesday. One show a day. Check their website for listing.

  282. watergirl I never heard that baptist fairytale before. Where did you hear it?

  283. It’s a rather old fairy tale.

  284. OK I’ll bite, why aren’t there any women, and how can I tell which ones are baptists?

  285. There are pretty women in the hell scenes. It’s Italian, what you want from me, eh?

  286. Does anyone know where the new Short Creek compound is? What intersection?

    I’m bummed about the cheese. It’s not as good as the Amish cheese here in the Midwest and nothing is as good as Vermont extra sharp white cheddar where I am from, but I have enjoyed some squeaky cheese when I am at my home away from home in Bloomington. Perhaps the Centennial Parkers can start selling cheese out of the Merry Wives Cafe. Did they close the Twain? I never dared eat there, but that is where Elissa Wall proclaims herself to have worked. I would be afraid of them tampering with my food; I’m not even Mormon. With the cheese I could at least watch them cut mine from the same block as they sold to the FLDS types. I digress.

    Where the hell is the compound?

  287. What is “squeaky cheese”?

  288. Sounds like Canadian Cheese curds to me, but what do I know?

  289. It’s little round cheese circles and it squeaks when you chew it, hence the name, “Squeaky Cheese”. I’d love for the Merry Wives to sell it.

    It makes lots of cheese water, you have to drain it each morning, but it’s well worth it.

    As for the new compound, it’s my understanding that it was built on Uncle Joe S. Jessop’s garden. I’ll try to find coordinates.

  290. In the cheese-making process it starts out as cheese curds… before being pressed and aged. When you eat them fresh, they squeak against your teeth.

    Here’s an informative link:

    They have been a local favorite for years from the (apparently) now-closed dairy.

  291. That’s what they call the Hildale cheese because it squeaks when you eat it.

    Canada does make a pretty mean cheese. Upstate NY is decent. Ohio is still good. It gets worse as you travel west. Wisconsin cheese sucks, in the opinion of myself as well as all other Vermonters/ rational people. By the time you get out to Utah, the cheese really sucks (comparitavely speaking). The FLDS cheese was a pleasant surprise. Luckily, the Cabot Vermont cheese is now distributed to most Walmarts. It is worth every penny for all you cheese lovers out there. Cabot Extra Sharp White Cheddar Cheese.

    Anyway, the compound. Where is the Short Creek compound? Does anyone know, or is it still a mystery like the supposed Mexican Compound that isn’t mentioned at all in any of the priesthood records and has never been confirmed by anyone, even though Benjamin Hills is just south of Arizona on the main freeway going into Mexico from that state.

  292. PT, we must have pressed the Post button with seconds of each other. 🙂

  293. must have. that’s funny.

  294. The Cabot Extra Charp White Cheddar cheese that they sell here in NY does not squeak when you eat it.

  295. I think the Community Garden was on Richard, but I’m not totally sure.

  296. Looking at this picture, it appears to be across the street from Wendell’s now defunct Western Precision business’ building.

  297. S. No it does not. It is top grade cheese, not polygamist cheese. Cheese shouldn’t ever squeak when you eat it should it? Maybe the squeaky cheese is a “special” batch made up especially for unsuspecting gentiles. yikes. Nah, then they would likely continue to sell it to us.

    Page 29 of Leroy Jessops trial evidence is an flds census taken by the church bishops in May 2003. It counted:

    7,653 Total members
    854 Total Fathers
    1,505 Total Mothers
    5,294 Total Children

    Surely the number of fathers at least has dropped considerably since then. That was 8 years ago. How could they possibly have over 13,000 signatures of people over the age of 8. Children born since then don’t count towards that number because they would be under 8 years of age. The FLDS could only account for half of the signatures if they still have all 7,653 members from 8 years ago. That’s impossible with deaths and excommunications. Who else is signing this thing? Apostates? Other Polygamous groups? Did they petition Walmart? What gives? Maybe they all signed it twice. They probably have more than 1 Nephi Jessop Barlow. Who would know?

  298. it’s not even close to the old WP building, PT. this is the link to the location of where the “compound” is:

    This is the location of the WP building:

  299. Thanks yehaaaa6. I should have guessed. Up in the canyon in the snooty part of Hildale. Where else?

  300. Perhaps Lyle is building himself a Warren Jeffs type Hildale compound. How Big is his family?

  301. I made cheese for many years had no squeaking curds but I milked goats, maybe that’s why. The curd is much smaller than in cows’ milk. When we had all that white cheese and butter I really had little idea what high dollar gourmet stuff we ate. Imagine dewberry crepes with cultured yogurt because the hens had given me eggs but was low on flour, poor me.

  302. The amish in Holmes county Ohio make some womdeful cheese. Their baby swiss is great.

  303. yehaaa6….so, have you heard of anything else “shaking” around there???

  304. thanks for the census data i was just wondering about it because of yehaa’s comment on his friends “what no me worry” attitude. if jeffs has/ix getting rid of men i was wondering how many could be left to support families. i guess he still has a long way down the list to go before the remainder “wake” up. at 854 fathers in 2003 we could guess approximately 700 now. i think he is not in danger of an insurrection yet.

  305. Thanks yehaaa6. I was totally guessing. I figured someone with more knowledge of the place could straighten me out.

  306. So the new compound is bounded by Utah, Carling, Newel and Oak Streets?

  307. They probably have more than 1 Nephi Jessop Barlow. Who would know?

    Scioto Darby said this on March 5, 2011 at 12:51 AM

    That’s one of the reason’s why I want to see the signatures Darby. Warren referenced Illinois and it was famous for letting dead people vote at one time. Maybe the FLDS had dead people sign the petition. It would also be interesting to see how many, if any, of the Canadians signed.

  308. May 2003, was that before or after the Barlow exings? I know it was after the Bountiful split.

  309. Plus, does the list of fathers include single adult men? If it was done fairly with that math, almost every man would have had 2 wives in 2003. We know it isn’t done fairly.

  310. Makes me wonder if they even knew what they were signing? Or, just told to sign????

  311. Oh, and were the underage wives counted as children or mothers?

  312. This blog has an article on the splits that occurred with the morman polygamy groups.

    “During the history of the FLDS there have been at least three major splits where a significant number of families have broken off from those who have remained. One can easily argue that it was the FLDS group that split off from the others. In all three cases there was much contention and the major issue centered on who had the legitimate right to lead and policies being enforced.

    The three splits were: 1. The Allred Group in 1952, 2. The Centennial Park Group in 1984, and 3. The Winston Blackmore group in 2002. The fourth group later became known as the FLDS about 1990. The circumstances involving these splits are highly debated depending on the point of view and all four resulting groups feel that the others have fallen away from the truth. The FLDS go as far as to consider these other groups as apostates. Warren Jeffs has ordered his followers to shun members of these groups and have no contact with them even if there are family members in the other groups.”

  313. The UEP litigation is currently in legal limbo, right?
    Wisan and his authority is in limbo too, right?
    So how does it work that Warren, Lyle, et al can build this big ol’ compound right there on UEP property?

  314. I think someone said earlier that it was on non-UEP property. I know the 4 plexes were built on non-UEP property.

    Fredriqua, the census numbers would have been after the split with Winston and after the Barlow shakeup. Not sure how that would work with unmarried men and wives who had no children, although I found something referring to “Mother Naomie” and we know she didn’t have any children, so many they were considered a “mother” even if they didn’t have any children since they would become responsible for any children in the family once they were married to the geezer.

  315. When did the Nielson/Naylor group split off? Was that the Salt Lake Faction from the 1986 1 man rule split or was it later than that? Is it true that the Nielson/Naylor group is now aligned with the Winston Blackmore group? This is getting confusing.

  316. It might be higher than 700 fathers. How many of the 5,294 Children from 2003 are now grown men? Lets say about 40% of that number would now be 18 or older: 2,117 new adults. Lets say half of those are women: 1,059 would be Men. even if half of those men were kicked out, that would still be about 500 Men who would be “fathers” today, but were children back then. You have to add that to the 700 fathers left from back then.

  317. Oh my! I think trying to do any kind of census ‘math’ on FLDS is an exercise in futility.

    I refer to what Darby said earlier: “Page 29 of Leroy Jessops trial evidence is an flds census taken by the church bishops in May 2003.” [emphasis mine]

    Remember what Granny keeps reminding us? “Liars lie…”

    What ‘community’ was being counted, eh? Bountiful, Short Creek, Colorado, Pringle, YFZ????

    Just saying…

  318. EE:
    Elsinore Elmer,

    Some information on the Nielsen-Naylor split. Reference below

    “The Nielsen-Naylor Group split off from Centennial Park and moved to the Salt Lake Valley. Alex Joseph, a famed polygamist in Big Water until his death in 1998, split off from Rulon Allred, as did Gerald Peterson’s Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

  319. It says total members. If you look the records seem anally accurate, naming the wives, children, which wives the children belong to, as well as both the biological and priesthood holding fathers of everyone in the household including the parents, as well as their biological mothers. It had what family members were at yfz and what ones were still in Short Creek.

  320. YFZ was much smaller than that at the time of the raid, only about 100 males.

  321. All I’m saying is, I don’t believe ’em.

    How would accuracy be determined… and by whom?

  322. I completely agree, E Texas. The count at YFZ was done by LE and CPS and it was a closed environment. I tend to believe that.

    However, it was only “closed” after LE got control of things. Since one man was caught with young women in his truck trying to exit the back over open country, I suspect that some folks got away while CPS was standing at the gate waiting to get in and talking to Merrill. Perhaps even the “Sarah” they were looking for.

  323. These were Warrens personal records to keep track of his flock. With his propensity to micro manage everything FLDS, I would say that would be a fairly good indication that this is spot on. This isn’t something that they ever intended to be presented to the public.

  324. Betty, all of the ranch was surrounded. Any potential exit was monitored and also ways across neighbors lands were patrolled. The one with the girl in his car was one of Warren’s sons. He was arrested and is now on probation if my memory serves me correct. I’m thinking the name was Levi Barlow Jeffs, oldest son of Warren and Barbara. He was about 18 months older than Warren and Annette’s oldest boy, Mosiah, the one who Warren dictated about being on Zoloft.

  325. Still, I remain unconvinced. FLDS records have never been uber accurate… and I just don’t believe they became so with Warren.

    Also, he left so much up to imaginative (as kindly as I can put it) Naomie. Call me a skeptical cynic… jmo.

  326. From a wikepedia article: More data on the Nielsen-Naylor Group.

    “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Kingdom of GodThe Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Kingdom of God[34] is based in the Salt Lake Valley, and has around 200 members. The sect was founded by Frank Naylor and Ivan Nielson, who split from the Centennial Park group, another fundamentalist church. This group trace their authority through Alma Adelbert Timpson and Frank Naylor. The church is estimated to have 200-300 members, most of whom reside in the Salt Lake Valley. Most—if not all—of the members of this group were previously associated with the Centennial Park or FLDS Church.The group is also known as the Third Ward or the Naylor group, after Frank Naylor.”

  327. May 2003, was that before or after the Barlow exings? I know it was after the Bountiful split.

    Fredriqua said this on March 5, 2011 at 9:44 AM

    It was BEFORE the Barlows were kicked out by Warren – that happened in January 2004.

  328. Susanna Barlow, who wrote the wonderful memoir “What Peace There May Be” grew up in the Nielsen-Naylor Group that split off from Centennial Park and moved to the Salt Lake Valley.

    Her father is Ivan Nielsen – Wendell’s brother.

  329. YIKES they took that beautiful field and built a compound (read prison)?

  330. Here is a great chart created by the Deseret News showing the various splits of the Mormon Fundies

    Click to access Des_News_Leaders_Lines_of_Authority.pdf

  331. yehaaa6….so, have you heard of anything else “shaking” around there???
    jobo said this on March 5, 2011 at 8:17 AM

    Nothing really. my friend acts like the whole town falling apart isn’t something he should worry about, and my family always tells me they’re doing “great” every time I call them. It’s quite frustrating at times. I told one of my sisters that I had heard some crazy stuff was going on down there, and she was like, “as far as I know, nothing crazy is going on”. this was via txt message, and you can still practically hear the “keep sweet” tone in their voices. ugh!

    Makes me wonder if they even knew what they were signing? Or, just told to sign????
    jobo said this on March 5, 2011 at 9:51 AM

    Most likely told to sign. they may or may not have had the letters (“revelations”) read to them in meeting.

  332. The FLDS don’t have any qualms about signing dead people’s names to petitions.

    Go here

    At the bottom click on signatures and then search for the name Jeffs. Apparently Rulon was able to sign an online petition in 2008. Amazing.

  333. yehaaa6, at least your family knows you are out there if they are exed, asked to leave or anything of the sort, your friend too.

  334. See?… signing names of many years deceased names on a petition… just for one thing, why I don’t believe their… well… anything!

  335. Okay, but I get it. President Rulon T. Jeffs was not supposed to die… or at least was supposed to live something like 350 years to help usher in the new Millenium and the return of Jesus Christ. The people were told that even before the migration from SLC to Short Creek. That’s why he didn’t have to call another mortal to the Apostleship. After all, he apparently did preside over his own funeral; it says so right on his funeral program; and Warren was fond of saying “Father is just in the next room” telling him what to say to the people. So anything he said, was really his father speaking.

    Yep, I get it. Rulon is not really dead… he’s just in some invisible room that follows Warren wherever he goes and only Warren can go in there to see him. So the petition is correct.

    ::struggling to drag tongue out of cheek::

  336. So I wonder if Reagan County knows they are not only housing Warren, but also his father. Makes you wonder if they count Rulon in their numbers for prisoners housed in the facility.

  337. Yehaaa6, my ‘in’ folks behave exactly as you describe. Nice to get some confirmation that it’s not just me.

  338. Maybe I need to make a road trip and give some of these “in” people a good swift kick in the pants.

  339. Salon Magazine on recent developments in the FLDS

  340. PT, I’ll bet my beloved keyboard Regan County doesn’t.

  341. S, good read!

    I really like Salon articles. I especially liked this colorful sentence:
    “Jeffs may think he has superpowers, but the Texas justice system is his kryptonite.”

    And the last sentence – question – we all want an answer to:
    “You have to wonder, what will his followers do when they realize God is not letting Jeffs out of jail … and the earth keeps turning without interruption?”

  342. To Texas prosecutors, Jeffs is nothing more than a pedophile who uses God’s word as an excuse to do whatever he wants. To his people, he is hope. “He is everything,” said a young man working on a roof. The man looked like a young Ricky Schroeder with flyaway blond hair. Later, I discovered he was one of Warren Jeffs’ sons, Rulon, named after his grandfather.

    Here’s proof that young boys work – Warren has 2 sons named Rulon. The one with Glora Barlow is 12 and the one with Ora Steed is 7. Either is waaaaay too young to be working construction.

  343. If it takes Texas to set those people free, so be it.

  344. Warren has two sons with the same name? Who does he think he is, George Forman? What a retard.

  345. Warren in isolation away from phones would be a good thing for the people of Short Creek.

    And yeah partowan, he had two sons named Rulon. One was Rulon Warren Jeffs and the other was Rulon Barlow Jeffs.

  346. #

    Salon Magazine on recent developments in the FLDS

    S. said this on March 5, 2011 at 1:56 PM

    Read the article posted above, well written, it brings up the question when it becomes apparent that ole warren isn’t getting out of jail, and most likely will spend the rest of his life a inmate of TDCJ. Will the FLDS splinter into separate groups, we some joining up with CP/second ward or the AUB, Kingstons etc.?
    Will there be the rise of a violent David Koresh like group, which provokes violent confrontation. Will we some FLDS become independents, striking out at society by kidnapping “plural wives” in the manner of Brian David Mitchell? Hopefully the FLDS when Jeffs in dumped by the membership, will become associated with non violent groups like AUB, CP/Second ward, or become members of main stream groups like Baptists, Catholics, LDS etc.

  347. What does Warrens Lawyer have to say about the proclamation?

  348. What does Warrens Lawyer have to say about the proclamation?

    parowan said this on March 5, 2011 at 3:49 PM

    hmmm…I’m wondering that too!! Do ya reckon he even knew the weenie was going to even do it???

  349. I’m trying to remember the timeline. I think he got this new attorney on January 31. Apparently the proclamation was dictated on February 5 and mailed out in late February. I’m going to say that the attorney probably didn’t know. They spent a little time together before the hearing, maybe 20 minutes and then about 10 minutes after. Warren probably planned it as a surprise for his new counsel to see how he’d react.

  350. hmmm…I was not even thinking about the timeline..good job remembering PT..I am thinking there is not a lawyer anywhere that would want his client to send a threat to Mr. President???

  351. Proud T, IMO you are right, ole Warren’s defense lawyer most likely didn’t know that his client would commit another felony on the federal level by making threats at President Obama. Would be surprised to see Secret Service or US Marshals show up with a federal warrant for Warren Jeffs at his next hearing in San Angelo,TX. Just think if Jeffs in convicted in the federal system, he could end up sharing a prison cell with Brian David Mitchell, wouldn’t they make a lovely couple, taking turns as profit and wife, they could turns preaching and singing to each other.

    The new lawyers reaction just might be to quit, which just might be part of Warren’s plan to dis-rail his Texas trial.

  352. I gotta say – I’m just not cut out for any kind of legal work.

    Because why would I keep a client who was behaving in a way that would potentially destroy the picture of him I was trying to build as a component of his defense?

    Unless insanity is the defense…

    Even if he was considered incompetent, I cannot imagine Warren having the freedom to make phone calls to his flock and send letters to the President from whatever facility he’d be residing at. For whatever amount of time he’d be there.

    Does Texas have a “Guilty but Insane” verdict?

  353. Can you imagine what it cost to send all of those letters? WOW!

  354. Chemist The Kingstons and Tom Green were also splinter groups. Jim Harmston out of Manti took on followers of the Ogden group that had arrests for ponography and their lingerie parties involving women on girl sex for their viewing pleasure. Harmston was also big into doomsday and racking up weapons. I’m not sure where he came from. The AUB has their site in Bluffdale and also Pinedale, MT they did their fair share of transporting girls from state to state too. Troy Bowles was from the AUB and actually took on the judge in Southern Utah, it might have been Beacham?, they had some kind of court case or show down in the media.

  355. Rulon Jeff’s told his people that the world would be destroyed at Y2K, when the world isn’t destroyed they will continue to follow him. It’s pretty safe saying there will be storms, last year in the United States there were over 1,200 confirmed tornadoes and I’m not sure how many hurricanes. Anyway, he and Pat Robertson are going to have to fight over who gets the credit for major disasters.

  356. I’ve never heard of a Guilty but insane verdict, but it might fit here.

    We do have Not guilty by reason of insanity.

  357. Can anyone identify the wives in the picture in the Salon article? Just wondering . . . and thanks for the link.

  358. Troy Bowles took on Eric Ludlow. Ludlow was the Washington County Attorney before Brock Belnap. Cases of child abuse from Hildale were presented to Ludlow and nothing ever happened; no charges – NOTHING.

    Ludlow was the county attorney when Orson William Black was surrounded by law enforcement and his attorney convinced Sheriff Kirk Smith and County Attorney Ludlow that Will would turn himself in in the morning and everybody should just go home for the night. Of course, the next morning Will Black was gone – probably to Mexico – and has never been seen again in the US. There were 5 felony warrants out on him from Arizona and the Washington County Attorney and the Washington County Sheriff just let him walk away in the middle of the night. Typical!

    Ludlow was selected to become a 5th District Judge. That is why Troy Bowles protested. Since Ludlow had done nothing to protect the children in Hildale during his County Attorney days, Troy figured he would have the same laissez-faire attitude as judge.

    Troy went to the approval hearings in SLC with the State Judiciary Committee and told them about the issues with Ludlow. All of this fell on deaf ears. Ludlow was finally approved, but he is not supposed to be the sitting judge on any polygamy cases in 5th District Court.

  359. Imagine the irony!

    What if power-hungry Merril Jessop hooks up with FLDS enforcer Willie the Thug Jessop and they form their own splinter group? Merril alone has enough wives and children to create a decent-sized following.

    Or, better yet, what if Merril is PO’d with Warren for kicking him out and leaving him high and dry with his attorney bills and rats out Warren by copping a plea deal with the State of Texas to testify that Warren “married” his 12-year-old daughter.

    And then there is the scenario that Willie the Thug is stuck with his attorney fees for his RICO investigation and he rats out Warren by working out a deal with the Feds on Warren’s flight to avoid prosecution charges.

    Oh, so many interesting possibilities!

    Hey, I can dream, can’t I?


    Careers for evil doers, I love the last line of the cult leader

  361. Does anyone know the whereabouts of Paul Lebaron.I knew him and Mark Chynoweth years ago in Houston.After the murders,Paul skipped out.i heard he was in Houston last year but i did not see him.

  362. Warren Jeffs didn’t sign that crap threat that went out this time, did he?

  363. Nah Granny, Warren couldn’t sign it unless his attorney brought it to him. He dictated it and had his brother Lyle and some idiot named Vaughn Taylor sign it for him. Then he had someone go around and collect signatures. I wonder what threats were used to collect all those signatures.

  364. The big question will be whether or not Merril, Wendell and Willie signed it before they were exed.

  365. One of the reasons we’re all waiting to get a peek at those sigs.

  366. Troy Bowles is brilliant. I am attempting to encourage him to write a book about his upbringing.

  367. I wonder how long it’s going to take to scan all those pages so they can be uploaded to the internet –

    on the other hand, apparently there was a tornado in Louisiana. Wonder how long it will be before Warren claims that he called it down.

  368. I’ve been researching Bill Shapley. He’s got 7 wives, he married one of them when she was 18 and he was 63. He’s got 51 kids and 18 step kids.

  369. What difference does anything make who signed, if Warren didn’t? If Warren could “steal” the cult, why can’t Lyle?

  370. With regard to older men having children at an advanced age, there is recent research data which indicates that there is an increased risk of schizophrenia in the offspring.

  371. Troy Bowles is brilliant. I am attempting to encourage him to write a book about his upbringing.

    S. said this on March 5, 2011 at 10:54 PM

    S, I do hope that you can get Troy to write about his life in the AUB and his life living in polygamy in general.

    I have met Troy and he is a real hero in my opinion. He worked hard to make a difference in the lives of victims of polygamy.

  372. With regard to older men having children at an advanced age, there is recent research data which indicates that there is an increased risk of schizophrenia in the offspring.

    S. said this on March 5, 2011 at 11:15 PM

    Regarding Warren S. Jeffs and schizophrenia, need I say more? I guess we’ll just have to wait for the next generation to prove the point beyond a preponderance of doubt – ie with scientific certainties.

  373. Here is part of Troy’s story regarding his youth in the AUB –


  375. Don’t know diagnosis, but mental illness runs in Warren’s mother’s side of the family, particularly his Grandmother Zavenda.

  376. What does Warrens Lawyer have to say about the proclamation?

    parowan said this on March 5, 2011 at 3:49 PM


    Hmmm, question of the day!

    Is he jealous they spent thousands on printing and mailing?

    Did he encourage Warren to raise a little Allah Ackbar to help his case?

    Doesnt he realize the FBI file is already brimming with evidence?

    Isnt he excited that his client has so much confidence in him, he was overlooked and Warren went straight to the POTUS after God refused to answer his demanding beck and call?

  377. I suspect the POTUS letter will be an addendum to Warrens “Bad Acts” after he is found guilty, and his sentence is being considered.

    It wont bode well for anyone going to trial who signed it as well.

  378. John Llewellyn has released a new chapter of his book, Mormon Polygamy : A Virus of the Mind

  379. LOL

    That reminds me of Cyrus the Virus on ConAir.

    John Malkovic as Cyrus and a stirring performance by Nick Cage

  380. s.
    you posted a link to a scientific article on bateman’s hypothesis.
    do you now the authors?
    i was wondering because their data base is very large and i am curious about the proportion of 2d and 3rd wives in that time period that wwere immigrants. the standard line is that the major growth of polygamy followed the mexican american war and that there were many women unsupported.

    anyway i think that the data base could easily answer that

  381. Also curious to know names of the wives of Warrens wives in that Salon picture. Never seen that pic before. Often wondered if there were pics of all his wives and kids together.

  382. There is a Nat Geo pic of a big family, pretty much took up an entire meadow. I think Warren has wives in several states, getting them all together would be tough. Plus the fact he couldnt be in the picture, however with modern techniques he could be chopped in.

  383. Jeffs has been in jail, from AZ to UT, not TX. He didn’t sign that thing.

  384. now Texas

  385. He probably could have signed it in Kingman, but I doubt he was able to sign it in Reagan Co. I think their jail visitation is set up like Tom Green County’s.

  386. A letter from God through “his spokesman Warren Jeffs” and he couldnt even sign it?


  387. Like PT said, the whole thing was probably dictated (to Naomie?) and Lyle got all the signatures and mailed it out.

    1st Petition dated October 7, 2010 – from Draper, UT prison
    2nd ‘Revelation’ dated Feb. 5, 2011 – from Reagan County TX jail

    It’s all “I, the Lord…” or “Thus saith the Lord” warnings not Warren himself – but through him.

    No, Warren couldn’t sign it but we hope to find out who did.

    Then, what I wonder, is it Warren’s nasty little setup, framing both the recently excommunicated and current leaders AND acolytes? Is it a plan to finally force federal involvement and deflect from or change the nature of his issues?

    I guess a lot depends on how seriously it’s taken by federal and state agencies and further, what they will do and are doing about it. Would love to know if and what is going on in followup and which agencies… Homeland Security? FBI?

    Can LE justify a raid in Short Creek based on this? Does Warren figure, “If I’m going down, so are all the rest of you.” ?

    And if there were some kind of raid, would THAT be the signal for them to gather in the new compound and …. oh I hate to imagine the possibilities…

    So many questions… so few answers.

  388. Did anyone notice that the women with Warren in that Salon photo are all wearing white dresses? Are they wedding dresses? Do you suppose Warren “married” them all on the same day?

  389. hmmm…when I looked at the picture–the dresses sorta have a pink tint??? I was thinking they were light pink..but..maybe not..

    maybe, if they are white–that’s because they are married to the proffffiiiit???? That means they are “special.”?????

  390. HHG, I don’t personally know the authors of the Bateman article. I will check for an email address.

  391. I bet that the government does absolutely nothing with the prophecy. I bet it goes in file 13.

  392. Home Security Secretary Janet Napalitano is no stranger to Warren S. Jeffs, she had to deal with him as Arizona’s AG and Governor. Funny and ironic, too than this desertland prophet now levels this warning at an Presidential Administration to which she is a member. You know St. Peter only needed one angel to escape prison, so whats the problem? Hee,hee


    “Rather funny that now we have the chance to repent. All the world which Warren has been condemning for years now can be saved. This from a racist man sees his last hope is in the hands of a black president and what does he do? He threatens him. LMAO!”

  394. Anon, no one ever said Warren was to smart when it came to picking enemies.

    Any news out of the Crick this weekend?

  395. It is rather odd that he didn’t sign this proclamation. He figured out a way to sign the last one, along with Merril and Wendall:

    Click to access rflds-proclamation.pdf

    I am really buying into the idea that Lyle is speaking for his brother. The only thing is would he be able to pull it off? Carolyn Jessop says he isn’t as intelligent as Warren, more brawn than brain.

  396. I’ve heard that too parawan.


    Parents prosecuted for molestation because they “encouraged” their teen daughter to exchange sexual favors for a payment to a used car dealership. All involved pleaded guilty and the mother received 8 years and the men received 10 years in prison and 10 on probation. Wonder why the mother received a lighter sentence, sounds to me that she was as guilty as anyone except the man actually performing the sex act.

  398. UGH!! That is sick Betty…OMG!!!

  399. If those girls with Warren are the cream of the crop, I’d hate to see what the other guys get stuck with.

  400. and all for a 1998 Dodge minivan. So not only did they sell their daughter….they sold her CHEAP.

  401. I think the women in the Salon article with Warren were mostly pretty attractive and healthy looking. The unflattering hairdos and lack of makeup and identical outfits make them look odd to us, I agree. I also think it’s kind of rude to judge the people who are victims of an abusive society by how they look.

  402. Annette isn’t in the picture, it’s probably a group shot after they were all married to Warren on the same day. Could be some of his father’s wives he married.

  403. I’m thinking that Warren Jeffs will never see the outside world again in this lifetime–because even if he manages to escape Texas’ clutches, I’m sure that British Columbia would probably love to try him. In any case, if there were even the slightest possibility that Warren Jeffs might breathe air as a free man, sending out that screed probably dashed it. I don’t think it got dropped into the round file, but probably added to a file already started on ole Warren down at the Secret Service. It would be amusing for Warren to end up his days at the St. Elizabeth’s hospital in DC due to his threats on the President.

  404. GrannyMoose: There are two kinds of macular degeneration, wet and dry. She has to have injection in her eye every 6 weeks for now.


    My husband has wet macular degeneration and yes it came on very quickly. He had those injections (very painful!) but unfortunately they didn’t help.

  405. Is there any possible way to reconcile the claims on Religious Freedoms and US Constitutional Rights once anyone is sex trafficked across an International border?

    For years the fanatical adherents, blindly defensive enablers and true believers in the FLDS Church have demanded their US Constituional Rights and Religious Freedoms but what about these girls who have been coerced/allowed to be smuggled across our national border. Who cries out for their loss and denial of American rights and freedoms?

    As I understand the BC Supreme Court reference case concerning polygamy is that question of if there is any lost rights or freedoms in denying the practice. The laws denying polygamy’s practices has to be weighed against another individuals harm(s) by allowing the polygamy practices to be legalized. Doesn’t sex trafficking girls across the border constitute removing all of their native/inherited rights and freedoms? Is there any other greater harm someone can do to another citizen than to remove them from these rights and freedoms?

  406. reported in August, 2009:

    looks like threatening the president happens all the time. It doesn’t look like much will be done about WSJ current threat but, added to the list.

  407. It’s hardly much of a threat from that bunch of arrogant fools.

  408. New documents filed today on the Canadian Reference Case thread.

  409. Tunisia Islamic party supports the historical ban on polygamy:

  410. S

    Remind us, when is the ruling scheduled? And a big thanks for this amazing compilation.

  411. BC Supreme Court polygamy reference case is slated for closing arguments on 28 March, 2011 and will be televised. BC District Attorney Craig Jones has filed his written argument and the legalize polygamy has until 17 March, 2011 to file their formal close. I really wonder if Winston Blackmore after ballyhooing his mistaken claim of Charter Rights and Freedoms infringements has anything to say about his two American wives that were deported in 2005 and his subsequent marriage of additional American ‘Child Brides’? Of course, thise wives and their childrens rights don’t exist in Winston’s World.

  412. Closing of the Canadian Reference Case is March 28, as CaJim mentions above.

  413. Carol McKinley reports for about Jeffs at Big Lake:

    Prophet in the Pen: How a small-town jail is dealing with a religious icon

    “Reagan County Sheriff Jeff Garner. Garner says the prison records Jeffs’ calls in case they need them later. ”
    Garner admits one thing at Big Lake jail has changed since Jeffs got there: the mail room is overflowing with letters to Jeffs from his admirers.

    “Thousands of hand-written messages have come through the facility since early December, when the church leader first arrived. Garner laughs, “The number is so high, it’s unbelievable. Some have money in them. And they come from all over!” Corrections staff reads all of the correspondence coming in and going out.”

  414. Apologies for the above typo!

    Here’s another report from the Deseret News regarding the UEP Trust litigation:

    Utah Supreme Court to address United Effort Plan in light of federal court ruling

  415. Texas Ranger Nick Hanna has submitted an affidavit for the Canadian Reference Case on polygamy regarding the findings at YFZ Ranch and underage marriages of girls

  416. I wonder what Willie the Thug’s view of the Trust takeover is now. He’s now part of the class of people that the State is trying to keep from getting screwed over by the FLDS.

  417. E Texas, thanks for the links, sounds like Warren’s giving lots evidence to the DA, every time he makes a phone call receives or writes a letter. Bet the Secret Service knew about Warrens threatening letter and petition before any FLDS member even signed it.

  418. Texas Ranger Nick Hanna’s affidavit reflects that seven ‘Child Brides’ sealed to Warren Jeffs as of 1 March, 2004 and were then living in Mancos, CO enclave. His affidavit raises the count of known Canadian ‘Child Brides’ to thirteen (13), presently and more to be identified in a subsequent affidavit.

    Warren admonishes the priesthood men who participated in these covert sealings to, “Keep a Heavenly Hush” and not even tell their own wives and families.

  419. Wonder if “heavenly hush” is the male equivalent to “keep sweet”

  420. The Canadian child BRIBES number 13, so far. 8 years back they were hiding them in the Mancos CO breeding farm. disgusting

  421. If you are looking for the priesthood records to review the ones Ranger Nick mentions, try and/or

  422. ———
    Did federal judge overstep in ruling on FLDS trust?

  423. I was just reading that ET. I think it did, when Willie, Parker and the other ban of outlaws didn’t like the ruling, they decided to double dip.

  424. Wonder who Parker will represent now, Willie or the FLDS. Mike Watkiss needs to get in gear and get back out to the Crick to interview Willie. Ask him the same questions he dodged in Washington DC.

  425. PT there is absolutely no love loss between Mike Watkiss and Willie ‘The Thug’ Jessop. They seem to hold a mutual loathing of one another. If Willie Jessop had some of his children enrolled in a public school this week, just that fact indicates that some of his family has broken with the FLDS Church prophet and ‘Gentile’ schooling is taboo, so Willie is definitely apostated and acting on his own.

  426. Sherriff Jeff Garner in charge at the Reagan County Jail at Big Lake, has stated that he is prepared for anything based upon FLDS Church experts that have warned that Jeffs followers [Warrenites] do not respect laws outside of their faith. The FLDS Church ‘One Man Rule’ seems to once again pointed out that this isn’t a conventional religious community, by a long stretch. How many organized religions would purge so many followers and standby a leadership that is incarcerated?

  427. I have confirmed with several sources that Willie’s children have indeed been enrolled in El Cap. Not sure the exact timing, but at the latest it was sometime last week.

    I’ve also confirmed that Uncle Joe S. Jessop’s “school” is continuing and FLDS children are still enrolled. this goes along with what I heard he told Lyle, that is that he has devoted his entire life ton this religion and work and Lyle wasn’t going ton take it away from him.

    Judging from the number of children in the picture on National Geographic, he’s got enough descendants to fill the school without any other FLDS kids attending.

  428. The FLDS don’t respect the law. They only use it when it is favorable to them, otherwise they dismiss it and claim Freedom of Religion to do whatever they want. Unfortunately for them, Freedom of Religion doesn’t give them the right to break the law.

  429. I don’t understand how a court could help but dismiss a trust document that is dedicated specifically in it’s first paragraph to an illegal act, religion or not. And I don’t see how any court is going to sort out who is a beneficiary and who is not without consulting the very people who wronged the trust to start with. I don’t get it. Honestly, at this point, it’s hard for me to see how the people who consecrated that land are going to get justice from any direction. It’s screwed up.

  430. Betty, I agree that it’s screwy but the attempt to form a trust that is in a seperate entity and not a part of the FLDS Church is where things really went wrong. “One Man Rule’ might work as a form of control inside the FLDS Church, that is even debateable, but then to try to apply ‘One Man Rule’ to the trust is frought with likely legal complications, all by itself. ‘Warrant’ modified the UEP Trust so that it could no longer be dissolved but rather revert to his sole ownership. The Utah Supreme Court is, again, going to involve themselves in this trust dispute but the bottom line is the beneficiaries rights can and must be redressed. Further compounding this trust dispute is the latest purge of even more disgruntled beneficiaries.

  431. I just watched Sons of Perdition. It was excellent. If you have a chance, you need to watch it.

  432. I concur, I saw it opening week in Tribeca.

  433. It’s playing in DC on July 1. Looks like that’s my best shot.


  435. I could swear that the woman directly right of Warren is Jennifer Wall, oldest full sister of Becky and Elissa, she and Becky were married to Rulon

  436. To the right as you are looking at it?

  437. John Llewellyn has released Chapter 4 of his new book, Mormon Polygamy : A Virus of the Mind. This chapter is entitled “Is D & C Section 132 Christian?”

  438. The US State Dept has announced that along with Elizabeth Smart, the victim of polygamist Mitchell, Secretary of State Hilary Clinton will also receive Inspiration award. Elizabeth Smart will receive the Courage award. The ceremony is at the United Nations. March 11, 2011 at 9:00PM eastern. See gov’t website for info on how to watch webcast.

    From official US Gov’t website:

    From US gov’t website: “In addition to honoring Secretary Clinton, Diane von Furstenberg will present DVF Awards to four women who have demonstrated leadership, strength and courage in their commitment to women’s causes: Elizabeth Smart, noted advocate of child abduction recovery and legislation, Taryn Davis of The American Widow Project, Sohini Chakraborty of Kolkata Sanved, and Kakenya Ntaiya of the Kakenya Center for Excellence. These four honorees will receive $50,000 in support of their continued efforts in public service from the Diller-von Furstenberg Family Foundation.”

  439. Second season of Sister Wives debuts this Sunday

  440. no, to Warrens right

  441. the new york times today friday mar 11 has an article which surveys the remaining 32 hunter gather groups and concludes that inferences about human social structure based on primate male competition for multiple females is the wrong model for early human societies.

    They find that the groups are not alpha male and his many offspring (aka Joe Jessop) but contain many non related individuals who move in from other groups: The movement is fostered by strong pair bonds between one man/one woman. such intergroup movement facilitiates learning of new technology and cooperation that leads to group success.

    If true that blows the whole: a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do to spread it around and polygamy forces that behavior into an acceptable mold theory.

  442. The model taught to anthropology students looks at hunter gatherer groups so coulda toldja that. A study of relationships also, tells more.

  443. Is anyone else concerned about how the recent tsunami and upcoming earth quakes are going to effect the mindset of those still in? And especially of those who had begun to question Warren? I’m afraid this will have a negative impact based on his recent threats. Anyone else with me?

  444. Well poor ole Warren just can’t get it right, he said earthquake in Illinois, but it was Japan, poor Warren gets his messages all wrong.

    Well it’s apparent President Obama has nothing to worry about when it comes to the felonious profits predictions.

    Warren strikes out again, didn’t even make to first base.

    Of course he will be on the jailhouse payphone claiming it’s proof the he’s right, but did anyone in Short creek point out that Japan isn’t Illinois?

  445. You know he is kicking hisself in the booty right now – thinking Why didn’t I say California, Why didn’t I say California???

  446. But I still think he will come up with some way to spin this so it seems like this is part of his master plan of destruction called down from heaven.

  447. From Ben Winslow on Centennial Park Open Door Night –,0,1707460.story

  448. There is an ongoing boycott of products and services offered by the Kingston Polygamy Group

  449. If they don’t have tv or internet, how do they know what’s going on in Japan? These little inconsistencies bother me, you know? T

  450. I’m not sure that they do know, I would just assume that they will know about it once it hits Hawaii and California and Warren decides to let them know. He will most likely find some way to spin it to look as if his wrath has begun.

  451. What difference does a mere 6,000 miles or so make, eh?

    Japan ain’t North America by a long shot. But I’m sure he’ll come up with some miraculous spin on it.

  452. I doubt seriously warrenites get taught anything we’d recognize as geography, history, or anything like that. It’s all gotta be Warren’s Fairytales.

  453. He was pretty specific about the earth shaking in places where it is uncommon for it to shake. That excludes Japan, which has so much of that kind of action that it has specialized in constructing homes to withstand earthquakes for centuries.

  454. Wouldn’t it be funny if god cares more about cleaning up the wickedness in Japan than he cares about America? Looks to me like Japan’s god is going to outdo Warren’s American god. I think Warren is listening to the wrong god!

  455. It annoys me that people who claim to follow the Bible have not gotten the message of the Book of Job. You cannot claim that misfortune is a punishment from God because your little human mind is not complex enough to understand God’s creation or His motivations or your place in his vast, inter-related Universe. Everytime I hear something about the Westboro Baptist Church I think about Job’s “friends” coming to give him advice. Where was Warren Jeffs when He framed the Leviathan?

  456. Does Warren Jeffs follow the Bible?

  457. Betty, I read above as folks are enjoying poking fun at Warren. But, you are right. I have always remembered:

    Matthew 5:45 (King James Version) 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    I always thought of rain on the just and unjust as bad happends to all. My Mother always saw rain as a good thing since she was from the farm.

  458. LOL, watergirl. Thanks for that, made me smile.

  459. Susan, where can we get iodine or whatever is it we need? that one nuclear reator in Japan, radiation surge outside already, is what I read. This will circle the globe won’t it?

  460. Just heard that our fav deadbeat dad had a heart cath yesterday. Wonder if he’s thinking that will delay his hearing. Unfortunately for him, the hearing is 2 weeks away. Plenty of time for him to get to Texas.

  461. Didn’t he have something done to his heart last summer to avoid coming to Texas?

  462. Granny,
    One, if there are releases, it will concern more children and women of child bearing age. Cover yourself completely and eat parsley, bananas and kelp (or table salt with iodine) to load up your thyroid, fooling it. It takes potassium iodine Than it has enough and will not take up the radiation from outside. However, for heart patients that could be dangerous. In France, the public living around nuclear plants are provided with those pills.
    However, they where never honest with the public after Chernobyl and it’s releases, etc, I doubt they will be now. over 400 000 death are now contributed to Chernobyl, loads of leukemia, and thyroid cancer, children born with large defects, etc.
    I just read that in Japan one plant has a thousand times of normal readings in their control room and that their intake for cooling water is clogged with debris, they run on batteries and can’t get their auxiliary power going. None of that is good.

  463. Toad, here is an article on the treatment of radiation sickness. Your doctor can make these available to you in the event you need it.

  464. Just heard that our fav deadbeat dad had a heart cath yesterday. Wonder if he’s thinking that will delay his hearing. Unfortunately for him, the hearing is 2 weeks away. Plenty of time for him to get to Texas.

    possible stent occlusion ??

  465. Interesting little article in the Trib tonight.

    “Polygamists don’t often come to the government for help — Draper didn’t when she left the FLDS Church. If they do reach out, she said, it’s important to treat them as individuals who don’t need to be ‘rescued.’ “

  466. Don’t know much about those heart cath thingies, I had one a few years back, went fine, friend’s husb had one same died, he died.

  467. What would that mean, don’t NEED to be RESCUED? Sounds like so much c-a-r-p to me.

  468. Does Warren Jeffs follow the Bible?


    Since in the New Testament Jesus declares that there is no marriage in Heaven, the answer is: no

  469. I had a heart cath, depends n what they find and what the outcome of that is.Even if they put in a stint, the recovery is usually short.

  470. If there are releases from the nuclear power plant, the plume can travel around the world several times, one never knows exactly where , besides the immediate area, the fall out travels with prevailing winds, it’s the rain and fog where it comes down, but one only knows it after that happens, because that’s how radioactivity is measured. After it has happened. However, the elements have short and long lives, settle in the soil , effect the milk from grazing cows and again, we will only know about that if specific tests would be run maybe on pineapple from Hawaii or lettuce and grapes from California.
    I doubt that we will be told about that. Our senses do not work when it comes to radiation, we can not feel it, touch it,smell it, taste it. The after effects show up much later in the general population.
    Birth defects, miscarriages, leukemia, lymphoma, thyroid and soft tissue cancers showed up much later in the population effected from Chernobyl. No immediate deaths, just for workers who might be at the plant that blew or clean up workers. But than Japan is better prepared for those things than Russia, I would think they would have learned from their past and Chernobyl.
    Clean, safe nuclear power, not. Only on paper.

  471. Due to the disaster in Japan, the planed awards ceremonies at the United Nations were scaled back to a dinner, Elizabeth Smart did receive award, but the planned presentations which would have been hosted by ABC personalities such as Diane Sawyer and Chritine Amonpur were cancelled as they were tied up covering Japan. Most coverage of event was also cancelled.

    Here’s a a photo of Elizabeth Smart at dinner:

  472. Hilary Clinton did attend dinner and released this statement:

    “I want to salute all the other awardees, starting with Elizabeth Smart, who has demonstrated enormous courage in speaking out about child abduction.”

  473. From Huffington Post newspaper website:

  474. I am so glad that Miss Smart got honored, she went through a lot and might be able to help other victims.

  475. Here’s another photo from awards at United Nations of Elizabeth Smart.

    Wonder what ole Mitchell thinks, he’s in prison while the young woman he tried to force into polygamy is honored for exposing him for what he is. Wonder what Warren Jeffs thinks when he sees a woman escaped from plural marriage?

    This does shine polygamy in a very negative light, as it should.

  476. Most importantly Elizabeth Smart MUST be seen as the child she was. That men for any reason deem a child to be a woman for sex must be learned to be unacceptable behavior, no excuse given by some cultists calling it a part of their “religion”. Not to forget, damn the women who gave birth to these child sexual victims then trade them off for circus trinkets to “heaven”.

  477. Please don’t go off on nuclear power. Both my father and my brother are nuclear engineers. Both of those power plants are not like Chernobyl which did not have containment. They are also 40 years old, reaching the end of their life, they survived the quake just fine it was the tsunami that knocked out the power grid and the back-up generators. By flooding the pile with sea water laced with boric acid they are killing the reactors by cooling them and disrupting the fission reaction. I would rather have nuclear power done correctly than all of the fossil fuels and their inherent environmental hazards. But hey I came here to talk about FLDS not anyone’s prejudiced reaction to the word nuclear.

  478. Thanks for that interesting information, pathgirl!

  479. Yes that’s how nuclear works. Come down to it, oil’s still the cheapest form of energy especially for a nation with resources.

  480. Thanks for the nuclear lesson pathgirl. Coming from a place where fossil fuels are king and drilled for regularly, I know nothing about nuclear stuff.

  481. Here’s more photos from Awards ceremony:

    Above Hilary Clinton appears with Elizabeth Smart as well as Diane Sawyer, Chelsea Clinton, Iman, and other award winners.

    Above Elizabeth Smart along with Diane Von Furstenbrug.

    Award winners celebrate below:

    I hope that Mitchell’s jailers show him these photos, proof that he loses and Elizabeth Smart triumphs. If you want to get the goat of a polygamist, just show him a woman who has bested him and his so called priesthood, and yes that goes for you too Warren Jeffs.

  482. I am pro-nuclear; I believe its side effects are less harmful than coal, but we often forget that the side effects of coal are less harmful than the side effects of no coal and the resulting poverty.

  483. Coal is messy fer shure, they use it to be more sparing of oil I guess.

  484. I’m OK with nuclear, not a fan of coal. I think I’d rather be cold than have asthma and a raped mountaintop. But I guess none of you live close enough to West Virginia and Appalachia to really know what that’s like. And I remember the times before the EPA when coal dust and ash rained down like the weather, when you couldn’t swim or fish in the James River and parts of the Chesapeake bay because of chemical contamination and when people living in chemical producing towns got a rebate every year from the township to pay for the chemical assault on their car’s paint jobs. I certainly don’t want to go back to those times and I don’t understand why anyone would. Maybe those who don’t study history are really condemned to repeat it.

    As the cost of oil rises over the next decades, sun and wind will become cheaper. Wind farming is already a profitable thing in some parts of the US, Texas included.

  485. We are building “wind farms” up here.

  486. Texas has all the above. Oil’s still by far the most economic.

  487. Some coal is cleaner than others. Some processes that use coal in modern times are cleaner, also, for instance power generation.

  488. Granny, oil produces less than 1% of America’s electricity. If it were the most economic, that would not be the case. The “renewable” energy types combined now produces more (but still a very small percentage) than oil. It’s Coal, natural gas, nuclear, hydro-electric, “other” and oil…in that order.

  489. And now fish can’t even swim in the Chesapeake Bay.

  490. Total dead zone is it? Nothing to eat there?

  491. Strange stuff we learned at university during the 70s and since.

  492. I can’t make my car go on those others.

  493. Engergy is. Even light is energy.

  494. Pathgirl,

    Are your then here for “anyone’s prejudiced reaction to the” FLDS?”

    Birth Date: 04/23/76
    Address : 245 W JOHNSON AVE, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    17:36:16 03/13/11 Johnson, Samuel HILD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  496. No it’s better than it was during the Kepone ban of the late 70’s.

    Granny, we were talking about nuclear energy, which generates electricity. Sorry if I maintained a common thread of thought there, didn’t mean to confuse you. You CAN use that for your car if you have an electric car, and a few varieties are now available in the US this year. Kind of like the first year the Prius was available.

  497. Excuse me, where did you get confused, Betty? Begin at the beginning.

  498. 7:02 Aren’t normal folks “prejudiced” about criminals and criminal acts? Aren’t you?

  499. I want an electric car. I think that would be so cool.

  500. The hybrids are looking better and better.

  501. We used to have a pair of those Honda CRX that got 54 mpg on gas with no corn in it.

  502. These hybrid autos would do better without the corn, more fuel efficient and more power.

  503. Granny, educated or not, what you were posting was just plain old fashioned wrong and it was very easy to check. If finding facts and sharing them is unacceptable behavior, oh well. Don’t hold your breath waiting for me to change.

    S, my husband’s car is a Prius – got it in 2005 and we love it. Haven’t noticed any problems with the modern fuels, it’s MPG is consistently good and we’ve had no major repair problems with it. We are religious about regular maintenance. I’m actually interested in the electric cars, but I’m going to wait for them to become a little more road tested and for the price to come down some. The seem like good around town, errand running cars.

  504. Everyone I know who owns a Prius is quite satisfied with the performance and reliability of the vehicle.

    Admin –
    There are over 500 entries on this string, maybe it is time for a new string ?

  505. Please continue discussion on General Discussion #50.

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