General Discussion #48

Continued from General Discussion #47

UPDATED:  Allen Steed in jail

Allen plead guilty to a reduced charge of “solemnization of a prohibited marriage”, and entered a plea in abeyance to a second charge of “unlawful sexual activity with a minor”.

Both are third-degree felonies.

After entering the plea, Steed was immediately sentenced.

Fifth District Judge G. Rand Beacham ordered him to spend 30 days in jail, serve three years of probation, and pay two $5,000 fines, as outlined here with attending mugshots:

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on February 15, 2011.

652 Responses to “General Discussion #48”

  1. “Let’s begin going through YOUR neighborhoods and see what we find. I’m guessing some illegal acts will come to light to justify the action.”

    The police “go through” my neighborhood every time they have cause. Oddly enough, when the catch someone breaking the law that person can’t hide behind “Well, God told me to…”.

    ““Within” being the key word, hhg. The method that was used to gain the evidence is suspect at best. Are you willing to sacrifice the laws that have been established to protect individuals or…”

    There is no law that has ever been established that permits a religion to sanction and enforce the sexual assault of underage girls. The fact that the girl who made those calls has not been positively identified is besides the point. The reality is that girls who fit her description — particularly in being in underage and illegal “marriages” were found. These girls need to be protected in a just society. In fact, it’s past time this country cracked down on “homeschooling” and “private” school regulations to ensure these children are receiving a complete education that allows them to make informed choices when they reach the age of 18. NO law should allow anyone to hide away children and abuse them.

    “I know that what was thought to be happening to some of these girls is reprehensible.”

    It wasn’t “thought” to be happening. It WAS happening. The evidence on that fact is irrefutable.

    “But let’s use the legal system as it was designed. Or we’ll lose it altogether along with any convictions that leave walthers’ court for another.”

    It was designed to allow appeals therefor it is being used as it was designed. Funny how in your book protection in the law is only supposed to be for the men. What about the women? What about the girls removed from school, married and impregnated too young? What about the boys abandoned, expelled, put to work and denied an education? Where are THEIR protections under the law?

    Oh yeah — they’re getting them in Texas.

  2. Me again, thanks for answering my question about the YFZ Ranch Open House Lie-In. I won’t hold you here to defend the indefenseable but you demonstrate that you rather than I do not fully understand. You need to research the Temple in Mormon history, especially as it would be placed back into practice in the hands of orthodox believers behind closed fences on their gulag. I would refer you to author JH Beadle’s book written in the 1870s called “Polygamy; and other Mormon Crimes”. What I am referring to in the Temple teachings and practices raised a furor back in Beadle’s day. In the endowment teachings and practices the 3rd and 4th Estates which were higher rankings of the priesthood from 2nd Degree Aaronic to 1st Degree Melchisedek required certain pledges and allegiances, in order to elevate yourself within the priesthood. Beadle was able to reveal that one pledge included a pledge to take vengeance on the ‘Gentiles’ for the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. Secondly, in order to rise up to the Melchisedek level you had to recant your allegiance to the US and put yourself at the behest of the Prophet.

    I am not attacking the Latter Day Saints of today by discussing this history, these practices are no longer a part of modern day LDS Mormon Temple practices.

    Me Again when you see the Fundamentalist’s building their Temple you have to be forewarned that these practices used to exist within the Temple and would be resurrected within the YFZ Ranch and probably have always been preserved within fundy tenets. I am all for religious freedom but sedtition against the US or a pledge to commit a felony if the opportunity presents itself I would place into a cult teaching and not a religious meaning.

    Well there it is Me Again, check it out for yourself or don’t believe it and call us misinformed but I submit here that you are the naive one and not me. If you want additional information research ‘Danites’, blood atonement and Meadow Mountain Massacre to see if these pledges were ever manifested.

  3. Me again

    See, regular folks get in trouble too..

    Video clip of LiloKlepto in action as seen on Jay Leno

    OK, spoiler, its her in action in court – the best video chop you’ve ever seen…

    http://www.nbc.com/the-tonight-show/video/lindsay-lohan-preview-21111/1290963/

  4. And just in case you are wondering, it’s very easy to find convictions for sexual abuse of girls of the same ages as those at YFZ all over Texas and the US, with similar sentences.

  5. Rebeckah….HERE,Here! What about Canada’s polygamy reference case that reveals that over 25 ‘Child Brides’ fom the United States have been sex trafficked illegally across the border. What about the YFZ Raunch Canadian women found during the rescue and were returned to British Columbia. ExFLDS Bishop Winston Blackmore had two wives deported from Canada back to the United States in 2005. No problem, Winston has since celestial wed even more US ‘Child Brides’ and so it goes. A series of felonies committed with impugnity and without arrests. Legalizing polygamy will not stop ‘Lost Boys’, Age of Consent violations(FLDS Prophet says there is no minimum age to wed), incest wedlocks, sex trafficking and ‘Safe Houses’ for unruly wives.

  6. Help!

    Is there a way for usual lurkers like me to invoke the “Notify me of follow-up comments via email” –shown alongside the [Post Comment] button below the Comment box– without posting a useless comment like I’m doing right now?

  7. I noticed Me Again is using the same ‘excuse/diversion’ that has been used in the past [by duane, if memory serves] that because what’s happening in FLDS also happens in mainstream society, it’s normal behavior. Well, yes and no. As has been pointed out, everytime this discussion point arises, FLDS is not nor ever will be, mainstream society. Others, much more articulate than I, have answered this over and over, it’s a closed, strictly monitored [at least for the women and girls!] crime syndicate/cult.

  8. FLDS Church as a fundamentalist sect follows the goals of establishing a Theocracy lead by their divined profit and not the citizens of our democracy. Does anyone recall Willie’s televised meeting with Schleicher County councilmen over paying the assessed taxes? Willie used to boast about having his own elected authorities to replace the existing membership. Then he soften his position to well maybe if we could gain some influence the powers that be might be suitable to the FLDS sect. If anyone doesn’t yet realize that the YFZ Raunch is a planned for seperate township, you just don’t appreciate the hidden agenda. The Eldorado area was not chosen by happenchance nor acquired to ever be a ‘hunting lodge’.
    How many West Texas communities can point to a residency in excess of 500+ people on any single ranchstead?

  9. Perhaps of interest to performance art lovers in the Phoenix area:
    —-

    At 7 p.m. Friday, performance artist Ellsworth and her crew present Where the Skies Are Blue, a piece that explores Ellsworth’s experiences of growing up Mormon and her family ties to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS). The event marks the first time local audiences can witness Ellsworth’s work that made a splash in Australia during the 17th Biennale of Sydney and in Los Angeles.

    More here:
    http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/jackalope/2011/02/angela_ellsworth_explores_her.php
    —-

    A slideshow is featured of Ellsworth’s similar work shown in 2008 – Sydney, Australia here:

    http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/slideshow/angela-ellsworth-underpinnings-opening-at-lisa-sette-gallery-219570/

    Caption:
    In a performance mounted during the opening of “Angela Ellsworth: Underpinnings” at Lisa Sette Gallery on January 8, 2008, young women posing as “sister wives” circulated through the crowd both inside and outside the gallery. They were dressed in long granny dresses associated with the Fundamentalist Church of Latterday Saints and sported the poufy 19th century hairstyle the sister wives have made famous in recent days. Each sister wife slowly acted out parts from famous performance pieces by women artists created in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. …[misspellings NOT MINE]

  10. E. Texas,

    Thanks for the link to Angela Ellsworth’s show. I enjoyed learning about her art–very thought provoking.

  11. Speaking of the arts and the literary scene, John Llewellyn is premiering his new book entitled Mormon Polygamy – A Virus of the Mind on his blog
    See it here –

    http://polygamybooks.org/2011/02/15/virus-of-the-mind-introduction.aspx

  12. I’m still giggling over Ellsworth’s embroidered paper napkin captioned:
    “…Public Cervix Announcement…”

    http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/slideshow/angela-ellsworth-underpinnings-opening-at-lisa-sette-gallery-219570/20/

    I’m a sucker for a play on words like that. 😀

  13. Someday I’m going to write a paper on my theory regarding Christian fundamentalist men and their sudden interest in polygamy during or immediately following the birth of their first child by their legal first wife. I will entitle the paper “Oedipus Wrecks” in your honor, ET.

  14. I’ve been poor sometimes the only entertainment I could afford was playing with words.

  15. Yes, ET thanks for sharing the Ellsworth Exhibit. I love the ‘Semiotics of the Kitchen, with the sister wife holding a carving knife and testing it’s tip for sharpness. She seems to be contemplating ‘Sir-Cum-Decision’ of her priesthood hubby, very thought provoking.

  16. BinB, I’ll look forward to your “Oedipus Wrecks!” LOL

  17. More wordplay:
    A man needs a plural wife just to break the monogamy.

  18. From Perry Bulwer’s blog –

    http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2011/02/utah-authorities-say-ruling-in-canadian.html

  19. also from Perry’s blog – Islamic polygyny and child brides in a progressive Moslem state – Malaysia

    http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2011/02/malaysian-conference-considers-problems.html

  20. I haven’t figured out why Warren seemed to play all kinds of games in prison in Arizona and hasn’t tried anything in Texas.

  21. Oh, I think he’s playing games with his allotted telephone time.

  22. Well he may be, but he’s not doing it without those in charge knowing he’s making calls and listening to every word he says. I’d venture to bet they have their own recordings of his conversations to the faithful in the Crick.

  23. If Warren is playing phone games, you can betcher favorite jammies LE’s in on it too for all they can glean.

  24. Anon, two changes in Warren is that he faces far more serious charges now and he’s in Texas ans not Arizona. Texas has convicted seven (7) of his priests, none of whom have expressed any remorse or cooperation with the investigation, kind of like a mafioso operation. Warren’s antics will be in the courtroom and I think ALL THE STOPS will be out, he faces an end-game consequences with a guilty verdict.

  25. It is a given that all will be convicted and get a maximum sentence in that particular court.

  26. In any court, the DNA is going to show that a particular baby had particular parents. In pretty much every state in the union, having a baby with a 15 year old is against the law. Definitely on the 12 year old coming up with Mr Warren. And if you’d like examples of high sentences for statutory rape, there are lots of them around. You can just do a search on it and find people getting long sentences. Not much difference to the law whether you are a prophet or a pimp; you arrange for a 14 year old to have sex, you’re breaking the law and you’re going to pay. And thank God for that!

  27. Speaking of which, there’s the case of the 5 Brown’s. Their father has pleaded guilty to multiple cases of felony sexual assault of a child.

  28. Nah, MA, I don’t think any have gotten the maximum although one got closer than others. I won’t argue that DNA shot themselves in the butt but you/they knew how that would work before doing the deed. It’s no secret.

    Stupid is as stupid does.

  29. You’d assumed that each jury was a rubber stamp? This is the USA you know, that’s not how that works.

    Be glad it’s not a Dutch court, napoleonic code, no jury of one’s peers option.

  30. Years ago, before YFZ was built, I paid for one of my brothers to be a participant in our surname YDNA genealogy project. Not everyone, not every family, is a criminal trying to keep out of prison, did you know that?

  31. Looks like there a possible plea deal working for Allen Steed. It’s beeing reported in the Utah papers and news organizations.

  32. Oh really ‘meager-n-mind’ that court would mean the 51at District Court that has seven (7) guilty convictions on DNA evidence, a child for evidence and an minor mother to prove the aggravated sexual assault charge. Meager minded you state they all got a maximum sentence? The Texas state average for aggravated sexual assault is 17.5+ years and half of these convicts have plead or received lesser verdicts. That meany ole Judge Walthers is prosecuting them and their all guilty, imagine that. Say doesn’t the Jury or Prosecution play a meany role?

    Do you care to proclaim that the 12 year old girl in question was only married by proxy and the honeymoon is in abstentia until shes 17 years old. You know the age of consent in Texas for a child is 16 years and younger and hasn’t been changed in over a decade.

    I didn’t think so.

  33. What’s the plea, the deal rather, for FELONY underage RAPE, she said NO, of one’s first cousin, INCEST, that you’ve already sworn to in court?

    Probably a different deal in UT or AZ if you’re FLDS or any mormon polygamist – than if you are not.

  34. Allen Steed pleads a deal that violates Warrens standing command,”Answer Them Nothing” and he could get booted out of the FLDS Church. Michael Emack plead his quilty plea and seems to have survived intact but he hasn’t faced any parole boards and could show remorse to shorten his sentence. I would like to see Elissa Wall and her family spared another trial but Allen Steed needs to answer for his misdeeds.

  35. “It is a given that all will be convicted and get a maximum sentence in that particular court.”

    Actually the 7 men already convicted have received a range of sentences. Not one has received the “maximum” sentence although one got a substantially larger sentence than any of the others. Of course, there’s a good chance that sentence will be overturned on appeal.

  36. He has to file an appeal on his conviction first Rebeckah. So far all he’s appealed is the fact that he was ruled to not be indigent.

  37. If Allen did a plea it would delight me, cause he would be admitting that he was, technically guilty. It would certainly make it easier to prosecute Warren for making it happen if he admitted that it happened in the first place.

  38. Yay! My message did not go into moderation! Thanks, Admin!

  39. Didn’t Allen already admit that in court?

  40. Allen Steed’s witnessing on Warren’s behalf on the first trial was incrinating but the Prophet trumps a priesthood member. Maybe now Warren can return the favor and secure the loyalty of
    Steed by allowing him a plea deal. I wouldn’t hold my breath on that chance. AG Shurtleff would be sure to give away the plead, if he can control the bargaining.

  41. Jim I’m not sure I have any idea what you meant to say.

  42. Hey Allen Steed, it’s a good thing you are FLDS; otherwise you would be in some serious doo doo. This is what happens to other 19 year olds who get caught trying to get it on with underage girls:

  43. Champy was it a 1st cousin?

  44. Sons of Perdition opens in theaters tomorrow. Sure wish it would come to a theater near me.

  45. Here’s more on plea deal for Allen Steed:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51263992-76/plea-steed-deal-jeffs.html.csp

    Appears the ole boy saw the light, and we all can sing another one (FLDS) bites the dust.

    Hope the plea deal includes going state evidence against Warren Jeffs here in Texas.

  46. And in honor of the latest plea bargain on part of Allen Steed, another one (FLDS) bites the dust:

  47. At hearing today, parents of polygamy victim Elizabeth Smart testified at parole board hearing asking that the only woman convicted of polygamy related charges serve her full Utah prison sentence on completion of her prison sentence here in Texas.

    Read more:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705366959/Elizabeth-Smarts-parents-ask-parole-board-to-make-Wanda-Barzee-serve-time-in-Utah-too.html

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=14417070

    Quite a collection of polyigs we are getting here in Texas.

  48. “He has to file an appeal on his conviction first Rebeckah. So far all he’s appealed is the fact that he was ruled to not be indigent.”

    lol, I just assumed he had. His lawyers must be slacking. 😉

  49. “He has to file an appeal on his conviction first Rebeckah. So far all he’s appealed is the fact that he was ruled to not be indigent.”

    lol, I just assumed he had. His lawyers must be slacking.

    Rebeckah said this on February 17, 2011 at 10:20 PM

    Best I can tell nothing has been filed since the judges called him a liar about his financial situation. I’m guessing Dan Hurley will have to decide if he still wants to claim he’s working on the case pro bono or not. I’m not sure if there’s an actual deadline to file the brief in his appeal. Right now it’s sitting dormant.

  50. I love that song A Texan. Thanks for posting it.

    Apparently there’s a hearing tomorrow at 10 in Washington County, Utah. We’ll know more after that. Wonder if he’ll be exed if he pleas?

  51. A good story about positive activities for CP’s El Capitan High School boys:

    http://www.azcentral.com/sports/preps/articles/2011/02/17/20110217arizona-high-school-boys-basketball-el-capitan-journey-1a-final-four.html

    The other side of Hwy 389 should get their youth involved in such a program of healthy activity and experience.

  52. Jes’ luv it, PT, your comment about Hurley working pro bono for the non-indigent client. Dang that bunch takes Texans to be as gullible as FLDS.

  53. I never believed he was so passionate about the case he was working “pro bono” Granny. To have him claim that in a pleading before the Court of Appeals just made me laugh. The man should have been smart enough to realize that he was being played, but he wasn’t. He even put Sally on the stand in the Motion for New Trial to have her lie for Leroy.

  54. “It is a given that all will be convicted and get a maximum sentence in that particular court”

    This statement reveals not a bias on the part of Judge Walther, rather ignorance on the poster’s part regarding Texas jurisprudence. The Texas juries determine not only the verdict on the charges, but also the sentence.

  55. You’re right Chemist. Judge Walther only gives the Charge to the jury and then they decide the guilt/innocence of the person. The Charge is come up with during a conference with counsel. If found guilty, the Judge will only instruct the Jury what the range of punishment is for the crime they have found the person guilty of. It’s laughable to me that there are those who think that Judge Walther isn’t be fair. Having sat in the Courtroom during some of the trials, I have seen her bend over backwards toward the attorneys for the FLDS. There are many times that I thought if it wasn’t an FLDS attorney, that guy would be facing contempt of court charges, especially Brandon Hudson. He really pushed the envelope in Abram’s trial.

  56. Here’s more on parole hearing for convicted polygamist Barzee, the only woman convicted of polygamy related crimes, IMO some FLDS woman should also be in prison in Texas with her.

    Article states how victims parents were shocked when Utah prosecutors recommended a light sentence on Barzee. Wonder why Utah prosecutors want to go easy on polygamist crooks?

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51263291-76/barzee-smart-elizabeth-mitchell.html.csp?page=1

  57. Me Again, still think that posters here don;t have commsnd of what is the reality of the situation at the YFZ Ranch. You still want to proclaim persecution in light of an overwelling amount of guilty verdicts and convictions? Identified minor plural wives, children born and DNA evidence pointing to whom is the daddy would result in convictions in any US State and any district courtroom in America. Is there something we are missing or are you so blind that it’s you who can not see.

  58. I’m waiting to hear about the hearing in Washington County this morning. If anyone sees anything in the papers, please post a link.

  59. CAJim: Perhaps MA is not aware that Tony Alamo was sentenced to 175 years, Michael Travesser was sentenced to 181/2 years, Yisrayl Hawkins was originally sentenced on 4 counts of bigamy.

    What is common among these three men?
    1. Thery are all religious leaders of cults.
    2. They belived and practiced mutiple “marriages”.
    3. Child molestation of different types was done under the guise of their religion in all 3 groups.

    Sound like warren jeffs’ crimes and situation are an almost exact match. Warren is just getting his just dues somewhat later than these predecessors.
    Sure does not seem to me that the flds are being singled out.

  60. continuation of my post above.
    4. None of them were tried and sentenced in Judge Walther’s court.

  61. Chemist it really just boils down to the two following facts about posters here at ‘FLDS Texas’ :

    1.) We are approaching Discussion #50 and each numbered discussion segments contained approximately 500+/- postings for a Total Postings = 25,000 posts

    2.) Our interested and informed viewer blog running ‘Counter’ is approaching 625,000 Total viewers, so appromately 6x Stadium capacity of viewers have chosen this blog to read, view and comment.

    Those are the numbers Me Again, so face the facts and accept the reality.

  62. Thought some might find this of interest – Apparently some legislators in Iraq want to “bring polygamy back” as a means of marrying off the war widows. They seek to provide funding to potential polygynous males. What this fails to take into account is the fact that already 20-30% of the population of the “holy city of Najaf” consists of abandoned 2nd, 3rd, and 4th polygamous wives and their children, who have been reduced to begging for alms in the streets.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12266986

  63. So PT any chance, ya think, that Hurley’s butt will be legally sanctioned by the court?

  64. Selling off women and children in Iraq from the public taxpayer coffers? GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR that would SUCK

  65. Allen Steed got 30 Days in Purgatory Jail in Utah and 36 months of probation, yet he is now convicted and any repeat offense will go more harshly. Don’t have article to reference as of yet.

  66. I concur – polygyny is not the answer for the problems these women have. The Iraqi government would better serve these widows by providing them stipends for education rather than providing men with stipends for marrying multiple widows. There already is a problem in Najaf with abandoned, discarded former widows / now polygamous wives. This proposed policy will only make the situation worse.

  67. I believe Steeds plea bargain puts Elissa Wall’s lawsuit against the UEP Trust, back upon the front burner of a major settlement liability yet to be adjudicated. Elissa had to agree with any plea deal, so I presume the UEP Trust lawsuit was left intact.

  68. on Allen Steed

    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-possible-plea-deal-flds-rape-case,0,1887142.story

  69. Allen Steed plead Guilty to 3rd Degree ‘Solemnizatiuon of an unlawful marriage and no contest to ‘Sexual Assault of a Minor, sentence was as posted, above (30 Days purgatory jail and 3 Years probation), he likely will have to register as a sex offender.

  70. Hopefully good new for Elissa Wall and bad news for warren jeffs.

  71. I heard said in court that although she was a victim of Allen, that they both were victims of Warren Jeffs and that there were many more victims of Jeffs who still needed to be helped.

  72. That should be “Elissa said in court”

  73. Granny, it’s possible if he continues to represent Leroy, that there could be some sanctions for filing a fraudulent pleading.

  74. I believe Elissa Wall will not take advantage of her lawsuit and leverage to just ‘Cash-in’. She has repeatedly made moves and said things, including now this situation involving Allen Steed, to prove she will work to repairing and helping many FLDS Church members that have been shunned, abandoned and ‘handled’ by Warren and his priesthood adherents. I see some big changes upon the horizon and look for vindication and restoration of all of those who have been victims of Prophet Warren Jeffs.

  75. Here’s more on Steed plea bargain, according to article he has now plead guilty.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=14425402

    This article has more on Elissa Wall’s opinion and reaction the guilty plea.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51268554-76/steed-guilty-jeffs-wall.html.csp

  76. I have never believe Elissa Wall was in it “for the money” as some naysayers like to insist. Although, I’m sure the money has helped her move on and away from her past, I don’t think it is the driving force. From the few interviews I’ve seen, as well as things written about her, I think she genuinely wants to help others stuck in the life there.

  77. Last year there was someone on Brook’s blog that kept harping there could not be a conviction of Warren without first a conviction of Steed. Guess, that hurdle has been cleared.

  78. It wasn’t true anyway, watergirl. But it’s still good to know this is coming to a close. After his testimony at Jeff’s trial he really couldn’t say that it didn’t happen in his own trial.

  79. what doesn’t seem to be coming to a close is the UEP trust mess. where does that stand?

  80. It’s still a mess watergirl.

    Word I got is that there was another round of kickouts last weekend, including some Holms. Can anyone confirm this?

  81. Has it ever been established [beyond rumor] just who is running this shindig, at this point? And was the ‘phone call from jail’ ever verified? I looked for, but may have missed, that little mystery resolution.
    With all these kickouts, will more and more ‘reassignments’ follow[?] with more kids’ n wives getting name changes?

  82. Not sure if it was Warren from jail or not, he would get phone time, at a price. He’d have to buy a phone card from the commissary and/or make a collect call, so if it is really him, he’s spending lots of his flock’s money to call in and ex them.

  83. One of Rulon’s grandsons was arrested yesterday:

    JEFFS, RULON PEARSON
    Birth Date: 08/20/67
    Address : 149 BARRETT AVE, Evenston, WY
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    20:40:00 02/16/11 Stubbs, Rich WCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    53-3-227(2) DL SUSPENDED-NON DRUG CM WCJ7 300.00 300.00
    41-6a-601 SPEED CM WCJ7 190.00 190.00
    WARRANT-CASH WARRANT-CASH ONLY BM ICJ2 277.00 277.00
    WARRANT-CASH WARRANT-CASH ONLY BM BVJ3 415.00 415.00

  84. All these folks that get arrested…are they no longer part of the clan as a whole, either leaving voluntarily or forced out? If not, and if they are still attached to their families, how are these arrests looked upon inside the community?

  85. Ooops, forgot the last sentence….

    Or do people even know, unless someone mentions it in town?

  86. I doubt that people even know.

  87. When it comes to the UEP Trust and it’s assets the truer end-game is proving the theft of existing assets when Mancos, Pony Springs, Pringle, Eldorado, etc. were acquired. Tieing these newer assets to the theft of the mother UEP Trust would leave seizure of all assets back to this trust the vital linkage. Without it the prophet, bishops and priesthood loyalists will continue in lock-step to Warrens dictates of,”Answer Them Nothing”. With linkage then they’ll be enough heat to gather the scattered flock to the almighty moment of dawning realities. A lot rests, as from the onset back when Warren first rested control on his co-operation or continued,”One-Man-Rule”. A jailed prophet for all lifetime is a good start.

  88. This just in:

    Startling development in polygamy story

    A startling development in the polygamy story: The B.C. government filed documents Friday in BC Supreme Court alleging that between 2004 and 2005, two 12-year-old girls and a 13-year-old from Bountiful were driven to the United States by their parents to marry fundamentalist prophet Warren Jeffs, who was in his late 40s at the time.

    Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/Startling+development+polygamy+story+Child+smuggling+alleged/4311700/story.html#ixzz1ENEYuzHw

    Looks like BC is finally getting to the truth of the fact that little girls are being shuttled back and forth across the border.

  89. Those were the ones taken later from AZ/UT strip to YFZ breeding ranch, yes?

  90. Sick–just plain sick…

  91. Here is Daphne Bramham’s story in the Montreal Gazette:

    http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/probing+child+trafficking+charges+cross+border+polygamous+marriages/4312437/story.html

  92. Here is the affidavit produced by the Attorney General of British Columbia regarding the Canadian teenagers who were “married” to Warren Jeffs

  93. It’s the Blackmore girls. At least one of them, Mildred Marlene was at the YFZ. She told CPS she was visiting her grandmother.

  94. The Attorney General has filed an application to submit new evidence regarding the teenage Canadian brides which was obtained with the assistance of Eric Nichols on February 25 – here it is –

  95. two 12-year-old girls and a 13-year-old from Bountiful were driven to the United States by their parents to marry fundamentalist prophet Warren Jeffs, who was in his late 40s at the time.

    —————————-

    Sickening, just sickening. Shame on these people – trafficking their own children.

    When my daughter was 12, I was driving her to soccer practise.

  96. So how many under aged sex toys did this man have during this time period? Wasn’t this while he was on the run for the Elissa Wall case?

  97. BinB

    Once again thanks for those docs – AMAZING

    I knew there was talk of trading girls over international borders, but to see that WARREN evidently did this to molest even more 12 year olds is extremely disturbing, WHERE THE HELL is the FEDERAL GOVT????

  98. David Allred showed up in Eldorado, Texas in mid-2004 and purchased the future YFZ Ranch, it was acquired and all the construction ensued and public press speculation followed during 2005. Exact same time frame when three (3) girls were brought from Canada, like mail-order ‘Child Brides’. So all the chest beating, claims of local prejudice and persecution of the FLDS Church was in full swing. At this very same timeframe Warren is a fugitive and is placed on the FBI Ten Most Wanted list. Also, Arizona’s indictment of eight (8) FLDS men for sexual assault of minor women and practice of polygamy leads to five (5) guilty convictions and one case is dismissed because the charged unlawful wedlock took place in Bountiful, Canada. Not all FLDS members were actively involved in actual felony activities but all YFZ Raunch residents played active roles as acessories to and cover up participants to the series of frlonies that transpired there, including harboring Federal fugitive from justice, namely Prophet Warren S. Jeffs. Cjarges brought yesterday are not yet proven but evidence is based upon FLDS Church’s own records and the highly incriminating. Bill Medvecky has written about this Texas Ranger activity and views it as undesirable interference by lawful US authorities, he says,”they have their noses stuck where it doesn’t belong”. I say Bill needs to learn that his opinion of the events and his fake form of truth ends where young girls rights and freedoms are taken from them illegally. Bill Medvecky proclaims himself to be a self-styled child advocate fighting to protect FLDS children from an American jurisprudence system run amuck? Who’s really and truthfully run amuck here Medvecky seems to have no clue.

  99. David Allred later went on to make purchases of even more FLDS Church enclaves in Mancos, CO and surrounding locales, then Pringle, South Dakota and other locales not yet known but all are occupied and operated behind fenced security, watchtowers and constrained access compounds. Senator Harry Reid held US Senate hearings two years ago that called for a Federal Task force to deal with this intra-State crime spree which now appears has across national border implications.

  100. The evidence is clear. Warren Jeffs did not “marry” only two 12-13 year old girls, he “married” several. These are the ones we know about. I wonder how many underage girls we don’t know about. The Canadian documents are packed with useful information. I suggest that you take some time to review the documents in detail.

  101. BnB be advised that you ‘Canadian Case Discussion’ will need to be placed in our right Column ‘Search’ window to call up the detailed documents you have posted for everyones to view. The ‘Canadian Case Discussion’ has dropped from the “Recent Posts” menu on this blogs right hand column.

    ‘FLDS Texas’ maybe we can repost ‘Canadian Case Discussion’ in “REcent Posts” to make easy click-on selection?

  102. Unless these three are also ones we already knew about, I’m counting 5 or 6. There were the two that are involved in the court case against him, these three and I thought there was another.

  103. I have my own opinions of Medvecky’s true motivations, but I see nothing positive in airing them here.

  104. Betty, For your remembrance this blog site back in October 29,2009 through down a gauntlet when it posted “Is Bill Medvecky a sexual predator”? Bill Medvecky has had a standing invitation to respond to the questions put forth in that piece and to date has chosen not to dare respond here. He does continue his support of FLDS members activities, even post convictions, and this latest informations of filings concerning three 12-13 year old girls taken from Canada is another reminder of Bill Medvecky’s trademark behavior.

    His more recent activites are involved with posting comments at “NTDaily” lauding the release of an UNT police officer from the campus. If I am airing my views of Bill Medvecky out of step with the standing gauntlet tosssed down here back in 2009 then I will refrain but he continues to post comments here and ignores this long standing challenge.

  105. I agree with Betty. I have zero interest in BM, discussing it or giving it any attention whatsoever! Let slime ooze in it’s own abyss.

  106. CAJim, I had a close up encounter with a sexual predator when I was president of the local chapter of a club. This man ran activities for children and at first everyone thought he was great. But early on I noticed some strange things about him and his way of running his event. He adamantly refused to do his craft activities with anyone other than his live in girl friend. Usually people who are dealing with 10-12 children at once jump at the chance to get help. Then he wanted his activity set up well out of sight of most other activities. He said it was because the children were noisy and people would complain, but when I tried to solve that problem (by putting them near other noisy activities) he became furious and yelled about how people were always trying to work against him. He had a tent that he set up, with a door that faced away from the other activities and he filled the tent knee high with soft plush toys! So I called the chapter he moved here from and found that there were charges against him for exposing himself to kids. With the help of a few other officers and one very brave mother and child, we got evidence together and involved the police. Turns out he had a collection of pictures of wholesome, good looking young kids. Sound familiar? When he was on the witness stand, he went on and on about how he really cared for children and no one else understood them. He wanted to give them the attention and learning they needed. Police were all thugs, CPS were all crazy busybodies and only he knew what was healthy for kids. He loved his own children so much and had done everything he could for them, lah-dee-dah. Witch hunt because people don’t understand. lah-dee-dah. Turns out he was doing kids activities wearing a regimental kilt with mirrors placed on the ground and he would lure some of the kids away from the others and lift his skirts for them. He had lured some kids into his tent, and a few older kids (10-12) had actually visited his home. But we were never able to find out what happened in those cases. After he was found guilty, during sentencing, the judge told us that he had been convicted of similar charges in three states and although he could not consider that for a verdict, he could for sentencing. The guy got the max plus mandatory psych counseling. Bailiffs from another state were waiting to take him into custody for non payment of child support on those children he claimed to love so much.

    Every time I read Medvecky’s stuff and see all those pictures of sweet, fresh faced kids, his insistence that he’s right and the system is wrong, etc……I just think of my friend in a kilt. Pattern matching.

  107. Bingo – and Medvecky was incarcerated too.

  108. As I look back on this saga and the people who followed it, I note a very large dose of irony.

    Allen Steed is now a convicted criminal. The State of Texas is what 7-0 in convictions? Each conviction done with air tight DNA evidence.

    Meanwhile the supporters first said that it never happened. Then they said that it is all a violation of a pleasant minorities rights. They maintain that the prosecutions were the result of haters and bigots who were evil.

    I can’t say my crystal ball was 100% clear, but there are a hell of a lot of internet “pundits” and bloviators that need to eat a big hot bowl of crow.

    Personally, I’m totally ambivalent over what has happened. No matter what the people who are now criminals were factually guilty. No matter what the reality is that if you do the crime you may end up doing the time.

    Meanwhile, live goes on…

  109. Can we stop talking about the slimeball ‘M’ ?
    I am very interested about those young girls that got taken across the border to marry WSJ. Wonder if they are still in Texas or US. as far as I know you can only visit for 6 month if you are not a citizen and I do not thing a celestial marriage can get you citizenship.
    are those girls back in Canada? Does anyone know?
    There this country is screaming about illegal immigrants and up by the Canadian border this obvious sex trafficking is going on, with the blessing of the parents. This galls me !
    Where are those parents now? They should be prosecuted ! does the INS do that?

  110. My understanding is that they were sent back to Canada after the raid, to their parents, but I don’t know who they were or what there status is now.

  111. Nice to see you, RIH. Yup, lots of irony.

  112. I don’t think the two in this discussion were sent back, they didn’t either one have children and both were 18 at the time of the raid so they slid under the radar. My guess is that they are still at the ranch. Mildred Marlene is a different story. She claimed she was visiting her grandmother and since she was Canadian, she was sent home (I think).

  113. The Canadian material is a rich trove of information and documents. I would also like to see a link to it under recent posts.

  114. See the cross examination of anonymous FLDS witness # 4 – an American FLDS woman who was brought to Canada for purposes of an arranged marriage at age 17. She is currently still in British Columbia on a visa, and her Canadian FLDS husband brought another 15 yr old American into the “marriage” 6 months after marrying her.

  115. Day 27 of the reference case – Bruce Klette with data from Vital Statistics Canada on births of babies to teenage girls in Bountiful – including births to American teenagers in that community

  116. Sorry the link for day 28 and data for teenage births in Bountiful is

  117. Chemist, it’s stickied to the top of the blog. That’s how I always get to it.

  118. Thanks PT. I thought it was going to be moved to the archives. My concern is having it very visible rather than being buried under the archives.

  119. I must be looking at something different, because I can’t find this “sticky” thing.

  120. So much for schooling in Bountiful, Canada !
    http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Opinion+tragedy+Bountiful+students/4299570/story.html

  121. Hey RIH

    Good to see you! Yes its been a while, and its been proven that the FLDS are indeed serial child molesters.

    I’m still concerned the feds are giving them a pass, that may not always be the case though, with more evidence coming to light.

  122. The BESS shool improvement is quite statling in such a short period of time and without a duly credentialed faculty. I think something here needs further verifications, slow and steady improvement is the normal course. Certainly high academic scores doesn’t pair well with such secondary school under achievement. I think somebody in Canada needs to stick there nose where it can shed more light on this dramatic and sudden improvement.

  123. CaJim,
    Review the affidavits submitted by the British Columbia Teachers on the Canadian Case Thread. There are very few students left by the 10 – 12 grades. Most, except for the best and the brightest, drop out between grades 7 – 8.

  124. Review the affidavits and statistics for the Bountiful School on this thread. See the affidavits submitted by the British Columbia Teachers.

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/canadian-case-discussion/#comments

  125. Stamp

    Yes, there’s strong evidence of international transportation of minors which should be sufficient for either US or Canadian government prosecutions.

    One of the things that rather cuts against this is this philosophy by government prosecutors that when dealing with a criminal enterprise that if you cut off the head of the snake that you’ll kill the beast.

    I suspect that there may be a wait and see what happens to Warren mentality.

    I tend to agree with a lot of you. This is much like the mafia, you can go after the “dons” but until you get the “capos” you won’t kill the beast.

  126. Tracing the practice of the reassignment of wives to more “worthy” men by the profit to its origin in Mormon scripture.

  127. Betty, look on the main page, it is right below the Open Discussion thread and it stays there no matter what else new is posted except for new Open Discussion threads.

  128. Can anyone clarify for me: It now appears that in addition to many 13-year-old brides, the count of 12-year-old brides (read: 6th graders) is now three for WSJ.

  129. Minimum.

  130. Maybe the border patrol needs to pay a visit to the YFZ. By my count Warren was married to 7 Canadian women/girls and I’m willing to bet that none are here legally. 4 daughters of MacRae Blackmore, including a 12, 16 and 17 year old. Their sister Kathleen Susan was married to Rulon first. 2 daughters of Brandon James Blackmore, including a 13 year old and Anna Mae who married Rulon when she was 18. And then the daughter of Spencer MacRae, himself the son of MacRae Blackmore and full brother to the 16 year old mentioned above.

    Close reading of Warren’s dictations indicate that Brandon Blackmore spent lots of time at the YFZ when it was in the building stage. Just makes one go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm about their status in the US.

    Mildred Marlene was 17 when the raid happened in 2008, she was not taken into custody as she wasn’t a US citizen and she was returned to Canada. The two 12 year olds must have been in houses of hiding somewhere other than the ranch as their names aren’t part of the list of children. They would have been around 15.

  131. SwissieMom, you’re forgetting Brenda Lei and Loretta Jane.

  132. I count 4 12 year olds, 3 13 year olds and 4 14 year olds among the brides of Warren Jeffs. It might be 4, 4 and 4 since I got the idea from Warren’s dictations that the daughter of MacRae was 13 and not 12, but I don’t have a birthdate to use.

    He started his young binge with Ida Vilate Jessop, daughter of Merril at Thanksgiving 2003 and then continued. From then on, he married 17 others and all but 4 were 16 and younger.

  133. CAJim said
    The BESS shool improvement is quite statling in such a short period of time and without a duly credentialed faculty. I think something here needs further verifications, slow and steady improvement is the normal course. Certainly high academic scores doesn’t pair well with such secondary school under achievement. I think somebody in Canada needs to stick there nose where it can shed more light on this dramatic and sudden improvement.

    CAJim, I think you make a good point here. One only has to look back at the situation with the FLDS-controlled Colorado City Unified School District to realize the cash-cow the school district provided for the FLDS and the terrible lack of education that the children received at the tax-paperer’s expense.

    It was a HUGE ripoff that prevailed for many years in Utah and Arizona. I only hope that British Columbia is smarter than the Utah mormons running the state and the Arizona idiots who approved the CCUSD budget.

    Hey, who is the new Arizona Attorney General now – who is entrusted to oversee these matters?

  134. ProudTexan, what you posted regarding the ages of the child brides Warren Jeffs took as his “celestial spiritual wives” really makes me want to gag.

    Warren Jeffs is nothing but a pedophile posing under the disguise of a prophet.

    He is sick, twisted and perverted.

    Heaven help his followers!

  135. Thanks for the analysis video on D&C 132. I like the point that what is appalling is not the physical sins, but the heresy that he made God responsible for his sins. Also, to me, the fact that he gives to himself things that are God’s, such as binding a woman to a man for all eternity and forgiving sins.

  136. I never ceased to be amazed at the crimes Warren and crew have gotten away with. Its a great thing they are getting put in prison, but a lot of the crimes havent even been prosecuted.

    What would Mark Shurtleff say? Too many crimes to prosecute?

    It just irks me the FLDS is involved in the international child sex slave trade and they havent faced charges on this.

    What kind of atrocities do people have to do in order to get busted by the feds?

  137. Yes, annonymous the school education money included a salary position that Winston Blackmore paid to himself and in Hildale/Colorado City Warren S. Jeffs purchased a private plane that was later seized and sold. It’s also funny how the questions around any of the schools is always countered with recent reforms or improvements yet the history over a 25-50 year period is abysmmal. How could a community interested in the academic well being of it’s children not own and operate a first-rate library?

  138. What I can’t figure out is that tax payers money is used in many States but no State approved curriculum is overseen.I know in Michigan the oversight, especially after the ‘ No child left behind’ decree was fierce in public schools, Charter schools and home schooling.

  139. The oversight in my state is one school board at a time. In my county when we home schooled there was about zero oversight. No one ever even came out here, there was not a single phone interaction. We just sent in our original paperwork for homeschooling and that was it. Two counties over a friend of mine was homeschooling because of health issues with the child and they were all over her like ducks on a june bug. Everything she did was monitored. Shrug.

  140. This latest breking information from Canada doen’t seems surreal to me. How is it that Eric Nichols has this information that may well prove to be actionable by Canadian authorities and it has come to light until just now? Isn’t this more Schleicher County Grand Jury materials. Shouldn’t this same information be shared with Utah/Arizona Attorney Generals offices for investigation and charges? Why has Mark Shurtleff never acted to bring charges concerning Brenda Lei and Loretta Jane? The Federal government now certainly can’t not get involved when our borders are been known to traffick specific girls of both domestic/foreign origins?I sure would like to know why this information has only more recently been brought to light.

  141. With regard to Warren’s underage brides, I think you have to keep in mind that the AG only attempted to indict marriages where there was a known child so that there was be DNA evidence tying the underage girl to the indicted man.

    Also with regard to the two 12 year old Canadians, he didn’t have a birthday for these girls, so that tells me they weren’t at the ranch when the raid occurred. If you read the affidavit you’ll see that he has asked for certified birth records from the Canadian government.

  142. seems to me if el dorado wants to keep a stronger eye on yfz they should pass a county oversight for homeschooling. this would give them the legal right to inspect and keep track of the number of children at the breeding facility.

  143. CalJim, if they were in Short Creek, not YFZ, then it’s not within Texas’ jurisdiction.

  144. I went to read up on D&C 132 and found the LDS home study site and its commentary on that particular verse:

    http://institute.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-institute-student-manual/dc-in-131-132.asp

    Interestingly it divides the verse into two parts: marriage which is for eternity and plural marriage. the discussion of eternal marriage is long and detailed.

    there is no discussion of the second half theological significance except to say Smith was “tried” by his study of the old testament and the prevalence of concubinage. then it footnotes to a page on the cessation of plural marriage, but that footnote is not a theological discussion but a historical discussion.

    What would be very helpful (to me as an outsider) for this whole situation is if there was a revelation that the original revelation was misinterpreted and is to be struck from the books.

  145. Matthew 5
    17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill

    Matthew 22:30
    30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

    Matt 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

    Matt 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

    Matt 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

    Matt 22:26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

    Matt 22:27 And last of all the woman died also.

    Matt 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

    Matt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

    Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Matt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

    Matt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

    Mark 12:25 “For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.”

  146. Affidavit of Perry Kendall regarding teen pregnancies in Bountiful

  147. See the Klette affidavit – more than 44 % of the births of children in Bountiful were to mothers born in the US.

  148. So aaaahhhh are the babies anchor babies in Canada even though the moms are likely illegal? Are these moms applying for citizenship? What stories are they pulling?

  149. I think a county oversight for homeschooling is a great idea HHG, I’m going to pass that suggestion on to the County Judge.

    CAJim, all of Warren’s wives weren’t at the YFZ. Both Brenda Lei and Loretta were, but they never admitted to being Warren’s wives. They were teenage girls who were there without their parents.

  150. Toad, some of these wives are on student or work visas.

  151. I think who ever took the 2 12 year old Canadian girls from Short Creek to Eldorado should also be prosecuted for trafficking minors for sex. From what I read the dads brought them to Short Creek and then someone else carried them on to Texas.

    Same can’t be said for Brandon James Blackmore, he attended his 13 year old daughter’s wedding to Warren according to the dictation.

  152. BiB, don’t those things run out and have to be renewed. Also, what are they a student of and where exactly do they work. These are the questions that need to be answered.

    I’m betting that the 12 year olds are in this country illegally. Mildred Marlene was and she was sent back home at the ripe old age of 17 after having been married for 4 years, most of which her “husband” was on the run from the law or in jail.

  153. Oops:

    DUTSON, GABRIEL NEWLAND
    Birth Date: 03/21/91
    Address : 370 N HOMESTEAD ST, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    16:48:50 02/18/11 Jensen, Brian WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    COMMITMENT COMMITMENT-COURT ORDE BM MOJP 0.00 [No Payments Made]

  154. Yes Proud, those visas (student, work) have expiration dates and have to be renewed.

  155. I think that one of Winston’s American wives had a problem with an expiring visa a few years ago. She solved the problem by entering into a “gay marriage” with one of her Canadian sister wives. Then she could not be deported.

  156. If I have this right, Texas AG prosecutor Eric Nichols ought to be considered a hero not only for Texas but for USA and Canada for his efforts.

  157. That’s creative. I wonder whose idea it was.

  158. Well, that too. But he’s the face on the card?

  159. Here is a post from a blog in 2009 when Winston was arrested. Note that the blog records that the American Chatwin sisters were under deportation orders at that time. I wonder what their status is now. Recall that Zelpha Chatwin was filmed in the fall of 2009 in the Nat Geo special.

  160. Sorry here is the link –

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78630

  161. Here is the reference to the gay marriage of two of Winston’s sister wives from the blog post referenced above –

    Shalina Palmer, 15, wife of Winston Blackmore – Daughter of Morgan Palmer and Ruth McKinley. Canadian. Legally married Lorraine Johnson (one of Winston’s American wives) in December 2005 under Canada’s same-sex marriage law – to prevent Lorraine’s deportation from Canada due to expired visa.

  162. So, they are only against gay marriage unless it benefits them or can be used to end round a law. Sounds par for the course.

  163. He probably got a special enjoyment out of humiliating them. Added spice to things. For him.

  164. Note the post I referenced above contains You Tube videos of interviews with the RCMP and the INS which indicate that the governments of the US and Canada are aware of the cross border flow of teenage brides…

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78630

  165. I saw some interview with Winston where he said it would be news to him if 2 of his wives entered into a gay marriage with each other.

  166. Well, to quote the great Granny Toad….
    “Liars lie. Thieves Steal. “

  167. RCMP begins investigation regarding trafficking of 12 yr olds across the Canadian border into US

    http://www.theprovince.com/life/girls+have+been+smuggled+into+marriage/4316972/story.html

  168. Okay — Due to a very busy schedule I admit to only being able to pop in and out of this site. I recognize that my inqiry may have been addressed, so please forgive me if you covered it already. Here goes:

    Supposedyl the births to under age FLDS mothers in Canada have been significanlty reduced since the YFZ raid.

    Great. My concern is this: Has the rate really been reduced OR are they just not reporting them? Does anyone have insight to this possibility? After all, to the best of my knowledge, they still do not register ANY births in Texas.

  169. Sweet. So after he’s sentenced in Texas, maybe he can go to Canada and get sentenced there!

  170. Swissie Mom – the RCMP are commencing an investigation into this very issue. Apparently 44.8% of the births of children in Bountiful, British Columbia are to American mothers.

  171. SwissieMom, in the last legislative session, a bill was introduced and I think it was made into law (I’ll have to double check this) requiring all births happening in the State of Texas to be registered.

  172. Where have our resident apologists ? We haven’t heard from them in several days.

  173. Sorry above should read – Where have our resident apologists gone ? We haven’t heard from them in several days.

  174. It hasn’t snowed in a while either. Can’t say I miss either.

  175. Maybe we can also charge those who took underage American girls up to Canada for both marriage and also hard labor that was designed to convince them that marriage was a better option.

  176. S said, “Where have our resident apologists gone ? We haven’t heard from them in several days.”

    In lieu of our absentee apologetics, a quote from WSJ’s writing while incarcerated in Purgatory during his UT trial after whining about testimonies given in court by the Wall sisters:

    “I am father’s little boy here to do father’s will…”

  177. I don’t think Canadian, State or US laws are of great interest to FLDS. They don’t register births in Texas. BDM records non existent, pretty much.

  178. Yeah, the birth registry thing will be hard to enforce.

  179. Canada has a mandatory birth registration requirement. They have documented the births of children to teenage girls – there are 85 birth certificates (redacted) from the Bountiful community which have been submitted into evidence for the Reference Case. Eric Nichols is obtaining the birth certificates for the 12/13 yr old child brides from British Columbia for Warren Jeffs’ trial in Texas.

  180. I’m going to check and see if any births have been registered in Schleicher County in the past 2 years. It will be interesting to find out. LeAnn was pregnant at the time of the raid, so she had a baby since then. There was a cute little girl with Rulon Keate and his wife at the 1 year anniversary, so she was born. It will be interesting to find out if these births were registered.

  181. OH GREAT

    This is just what polygamists need in their finest hour, lo and behold they are freaking child sex slave traffickers.

    Oh, I cant wait to see Canada legalize polygamy now – NOT.

    Glad to see the RCMP on the job, but where is our own FBI!?

    What atrocities must these molesters perform before they get in trouble?

  182. Canada is going to provide birth records for the trail in Texas! Sweet! Say hello to Tony Alamo!

  183. I found this statement made by IITMOC on the Texas Polygamy blog archive to be of interest –

    6/17/2008 11:48 AM
    IITMOC said…

    I have talked to several flds men now, and they all seem to be of the same opinion. Willie’s statement for the church only applied to the church, not the priesthood. For it to be completely believable that underage marriages will stop among the flds people, it needs to include both the church and priesthood, as the flds view them as separate. If they did not view the church and priesthood as separate, they could claim no authority.

    Given the statement made by IITMOC above, does anyone believe that the practice of underage marriages in the FLDS is over, based on the promise that was made ?

  184. No. I do not believe they are over. I believe that they have no respect for the authority of law and until they are faced with real prosecution for this in Utah and Arizona, they will never stop.

  185. We always have Warren Steed Jeffs own words from 2003, two years after he married 14 year old Elissa Wall to now convicted Allen Steed,” I say, in the name of nthe Lord, there is No Underage Marriage in a priesthood marriage, in celestial marriage. God has the right to rule. The Lord had me take these two underage girls on purpose, to show that I and we, this people, are with Him, with God, not fearing any man”.
    He describes his two celestial brides in this quote as ‘underage’ and claims it was directed from above. This is no defense nor protection under our Laws, since the limitation placed in 1878 by the Supreme Court decision of Reynolds vs. US. Reynolds was chosen by Brigham Young to try this landmark case, he had two wives when he appealed his case and served 5 years in prison for his practice of bigamy. He got out of prison and took a third wife and was elevated in the Mormon Church to the Council of Seventy committee which acknowledged his loyal service to the church.

  186. It’s funny to think that having sex with lots of women is “loyal service to the church”. What a warped sense of values.

  187. This sect of fundamentalist LDS is the tap root of polygamy left unremoved even though the then Territory of Utah was allowed to join our Union after the 1890 Manifesto. They are the orthodox interlopers that preserve not only allegiance to their prophet in their theocracy, they adhere to vengeance for the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, Jr. and disavow our legal system wherever it is not aligned with their religious tenets. Their brand of ‘Religious Freedom’ includes a following of their prophet who leads them astray of our laws with their expectation of immunity because they are worshipping and faithing by their prophet. This form of religious worship lead to the Mormon Wars in Missouri and later Utah, we take these fundamentalist too lightly if we think that history can not repeat itself unless these organized fanatics are not put in check before they follow their prophets next inspired directive(s). They believe in their theocracy first and before our American Democracy.

  188. John Llewellyn has released a portion of the appendix of his new book – Mormon Polygamy – A Virus of the Mind. Here it is –

    http://polygamybooks.org/2011/02/20/appendix-i—memetics.aspx

  189. S “does anyone believe that the practice of underage marriages in the FLDS is over, based on the promise that was made ?”

    According to confidential sources, there are no marriages going on right now.

    However, my speculation on that information runs the gamut.

    Primarily I think it centers on Warren’s puffed up sense of authority and power. He is the one and only alive today with the “sealing keys.” Since he can hardly trust any of his top henchmen anymore, he is unwilling to delegate, that is set apart, another to perform any marriages.

    Aside from that, the present major edict from him is, “the end is near.” It’s time for “the one mighty and strong” to come and “set in order the house of God.” The faithful are just waiting patiently for Warren’s deliverance from prison. The “lifting up” will save them while God destroys the wicked.

    End personal speculation.

    Since I don’t believe any of that, no, there is no regard for the rule of law; underage marriages are not over. They will find ways of keeping it even more secret. In an old FLDS vernacular, these little girls will be “poofers.” High walls and secret places are being built!

  190. I wonder how long they’d be willing to wait? Since Warren isn’t likely to ever see freedom today the FLDS is likely to die out if they keep listening to him.

  191. lol, eliminate the word “today” from the post above. Haven’t finished my tea yet and I’m typing like a drunk. 🙂

  192. If the 1890 Manifesto didn’t stop this fundamentalist LDS groups activities and statehood hung in the balance then what is there in a few priesthood men being tried for sexual assault or polygyny. Polygyny, after all it is one of the distinctive tenets that proclaims their faithfulness to their prophet and puts their beliefs into a manifest practice on Earth. They believe they were sent here for this struggle and the US Government is the evil ‘Gentile’ force. They are not taught and do not believe that the US Constitution is the ‘Supreme Law of the Land’, they think that the Prophet Warren steed Jeffs is the living law and will follow his words without question or objection. If they do object or question this ‘One Man Rule’ they will be shunned and handled by the priesthood, biships and priesthood faithful.

    They will resume their practice of polygyny as soon as they feel they can do so without the objection of elected public officials, Law Enforcement arrests or legal action in Courtrooms where they reside. This brand of fanatical follower pays no credence to ‘Gentile’ laws., they look to celestial laws foremost.

  193. Recalling back to the interviews of some of the ladies from the YFZ ranch and their describing their prophet as being “perfect in every way” or something like that. It is the tragedy of tragedies that these people believe he is divinely inspired in all he does. If he were really filled with God’s love and as kind and gentle as he is described as being by the faithful, he would take responsibility for his followers being in jail because of what he commanded them to do. He has brought about such destruction and heartbreak to a group of people who have believed they needed to do just what he said in order to save themselves eternally and keep his families in tact here on earth and eternally. Tragic and how I want to hear he is stopped and shown to be what he really is to everyone.

  194. Catching up and some quick comments:

    Speaking of the human trafficking posts, I have no first-hand knowledge. I’m not surprised, but I’m learning here like everyone else.
    ————

    S: No the practice of underage marriage is not over… (something my mother used to say)… “just waiting for more spit.”
    .
    Llewellyn’s MEMETICS is well-done. He sure speaks my language!
    ————

    Rebeckah: Regarding waiting…“Since Warren isn’t likely to ever see freedom the FLDS is likely to die out if they keep listening to him.”
    If that’s what it takes, so be it.
    ————

    “Power tends to iso­late those who hold too much of it. Even­tu­ally, they lose touch with real­ity… and fall.” ~From Dune

  195. I’d keep in mind that FLDS happened in the later 1940s, it was done for the money and power. Warren knows that, and took all the money, and power, for himself only.

    Texas courts.

    Texas penitentiary.

    End of that story.

  196. I hope that Eric gets the birth certificates and uses them in Warren’s trial. I also hope INS starts looking for those 2 girls. They are still minors. Their parents need to be charged with child abandonment.

  197. These are the words of Sam Bsrlow spoken on 13 April, 2002 to the FLDS Priesthood Meeting & Conference, it reflects their temprament toward all of these charges and trouble :

    “We are now legislated purposely [in Utah] to bring us into collison with the judiciary and particularly to make to make Uncle Rulon [Jeffs] collide with the judiciary. So we are talking about criminal things. And when you deal in criminal you have to be careful because there’s some ramifications to it”. So the FLDS leadership & Priesthood acted with foreknowledge, advice from their legal counsel and ample Law Enforcement warning(s) but they chose to move forward, buying the enclaves in Texas, Colorado South Dakota, etc.

    Sam Barlow reported two additional comments,”We ourselves, you my brethren and I, came to this Earth after an agreement with death and hell was entered into. The covenant with death and an agreement with hell has entered into 1890by the corporate [FLDS] church”.
    “Many of us were held in reserve– came to the Earth at this time and we are born to this conflict. We can not shirk it, leave it or turn aside for even a moment– without a element of cowardice growing in our souls”. This is the banter of a fanatical leader calling upon the faithful to launch a crusade against evil doers that oppose their intentions, these priesthood members have not been hoodwinked by their prophet but rather called to his side to make holy war.

    They have not been lead astray by their prophet but rather they are wholly enlisted in his causes, there will be no show of remorse nor recanting of their activities, they are the chosen ones fighting the ‘Gentiles’ of Evil. ‘Answer Them Nothing’ is their wathcword for formal resistance to elected officials, law enforcement and judicial proceedings.

  198. sounds all too alqaeda to me

  199. Most times a “campaign against evil” does not involve having sex with children. Quite the contrary.

  200. I hope that Eric gets the birth certificates and uses them in Warren’s trial.

    So Texas has birth certificates of children born to these little girls??!!! Wow!!!

  201. CAJim, you are taking it out of context. That was waaaay before warren and his extreme fanaticism which has been increasing exponentially.

  202. Well, not waaay before but before most of the flock knew what extremes he was up to.

  203. Me Again, My quote of WSJ is valid and in full force and effect today, ther’s no out of context, over six plural wives were wed to him from that statement. Sam Barlow’s statement is somewhat out of context now since he was ‘handled’ but hasn’t he been reinstated and the select ‘Templebuilders’ silence proves that the axiom of,”Answer Them Nothing” is still held in full force. I am suspecting that Allen Steed either plead without approval and is ousted or he had Warren’s blessing and his guilty plea speaks volumes about who has been prosecuted or persecuted. A 19 year old male cousin that weds his 14 year old cousin would appear to be a real persecution and deserving of a formal prosecution. Who looks confused on the facts and truth now, Me Again?

  204. Don’t put words in my mouth, CAJim. I should have specified in my comments that I was only talking about Sam’s comments. I am not confused in the least. You want me to account for their actions and that is not going to happen. I do have a very good idea of what they are going through, though.

  205. Controversial Imam Aly Hindi of Toronto comments on the Canadian Polygamy Reference Case. Muslim Social Worker and women’s rights activist Alia Hogben of Toronto notes that she is not aware of even one Muslim woman who has consented to her husband taking a second or third wife in Toronto. Imam Aly Hindi claims that he only performs polygamous marriages when the first wife gives her approval, however, the Toronto press has interviewed at least one woman who states that Aly Hindi performed a ceremony for her husband and his second wife without her consent.

    http://www.thewesternstar.com/Canada—World/Society/2011-02-21/article-2262772/Immigrants-involved-in-multiple-marriage-watching-polygamy-test-case%3A-imam/1?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=DTN+Canada%3A

  206. Me Again,

    May I ask how it is that you have “a good idea” of “what they are going through” ? Are you a former member of the sect ?

  207. In Warren Jeffs’ own words. November 2005

    “Then at 2:15 p.m. I called Spencer Blackmore who was working at R17. I questioned him the same and he bore a strong testimony. I then informed him that his daughter Colleen will be called to the redemption of Zion mission and part of that call is to be sealed in marriage. Again I felt impressed to tell him who and I told him she would be sealed to me. He supported it whole heartedly. I told him that sometime in the next week or two I would send him to go get his daughter and perhaps others. Mack Blackmore told me his daughter is about thirteen years old and Colleen is twelve years old.”

    Bottom line: In Warrens own words he “married” Colleeen and Alyshia Blackmore when they were 12 – 13 years old. What a slimeball.

  208. Slime ball who is now in jail chemist.

  209. Re the Sam Barlow speech. I have read a copy of that from Warren’s records. It is really hard to imagine how you could take it out of context. Is there a good way to say that you are going to deliberately marry under aged girls in order to prove that God is greater than the state of Utah and the Unites States? From my understanding, that speech was presented at a priesthood meeting in Short Creek. To then say that the men did not know that there were under aged marriages and/or why they were going on is kind of far fetched. I’m willing to listen to an explanation with an open mind. But you’ve got to admit the facts are pretty damning. The men at that meeting knew. And we are talking, what…2003?

  210. Benjamin Bistline acknowledged that underage marriages were taking place in Colorado City prior to 2000 in his book. That was one of the reasons he sought to dissociate himself from the group. I will have to look it up to obtain the exact reference.

  211. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51283536-76/jeffs-texas-girl-raid.html.csp

    Once again the Tribune botches the story. Warren has closer to 80 wives, not the 40 they wrote.

    Wonder what it would take to get Anderson Cooper on the trial of the underage Canadian girls.

    My question in all this is where are they? They are still under the age of 18 and in this country illegally. Maybe we need to have some search warrants served on the YFZ, Pringle Compound, Mancos Compound and houses of hiding in Colorado along with the Twin Cities. Turn everything upside down to find the missing girls.

  212. The article also carefully raises two qualifiers so that the faithful can continue to believe that the claims of Jeffs having sex with 12 year olds can be denied. One is that the documentation does not show any proof of consummation of the marriages. The other is the quote from Piccarella that he doesn’t trust any evidence from Texas unless he can touch and feel it. So, he didn’t really have sex with the girls and Texas just makes this stuff up. It’s really pathetic that a major news paper would try that hard to excuse the rape of multiple girls 12 and 13 years old. And for once they can’t use that “but they just lowered the age limit” excuse since 12 and 13 year olds have been illegal pretty much anywhere in the US for a long, long time.

  213. SLTrib has the story on the Canadian child sex slaves finally

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51283536-76/jeffs-texas-girl-raid.html.csp

  214. See the link was already posted, this one says his wifes number more than 80. Its clear though, he has a taste for children.

    http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Bountiful+parents+delivered+year+girls+arranged+weddings/4314630/story.html

  215. The U.S. Sumpreme court declared in 1946 in a case involving the FLDS that taking girls (or women) over state lines for polygamous marriage was a violation of the Mann Act. The court did not say it had to be consumated. So whether it was consumated or not it is illegal and transporting girls for illegal purposes. Child marriages are illegal in the United States and most western nations. I have no reason to believe that these marriages should not have been consumated since the birth rate among FLDS teenagers is many many times higher than the general population. They have seemed to have no regard for the health of these girls. The leading cause of death among girls 15-19 worldwide is pregnancy and childbirth. The one poor child who was in labor 3 days while Warren Jeffs opined about the faith of the midwife was disgusting abuse of a child.

  216. blackbird, i just want a search party out looking for those children.

  217. Seems to me with all these ‘Child Brides’ being brought to the YFZ Raunch what would be the reason for them all to be located in one enclave? Warren Jeffs is now known to have been given sanctuary there while he was a Federal fugitive on the FBI Ten Most Wanted list.

    Where are the FLDS apologists that claimed that these were mere proxy marriages and no conjugal acts transpired? Doe anyone here believe that Asst. AG Eric Nichols would be sending proxy marriages to Royal Canadian Mounted Police?

    Where could we look for a historical proof of Warren Jeffs underage marriages and there consummation? Joseph Smith, Jr. married underaged girls and he is believed to have consummated those wedlocks, after all the celestial marriage is not fully vowed until it is consummated.

  218. Allen Steed is in jail.

    TEED, ALLEN GLADE
    Birth Date: 05/12/81
    Address : 536 E WILLIAMS AVE, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    18:11:37 02/21/11 Jacobsen, Andre WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    COMMITMENT COMMITMENT-COURT ORDE 3F 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]

  219. Blackbird raised the issue of the effect of underage marriage on girls around the world. Here is an easily readable resource for you on the effects of underage marriage on girls –

  220. An recent article from the peer reviewed literature on the effect of Mormon polygyny on female evolutionary fitness

  221. Steed now incarcerated, right along with his buddy Warren.

    They both have their time in the cellosteel kingdom!

  222. Here’s a report from KSL a TV station in SLC on subject of child brides and questions if Utah will investigate or leave it to Texas, Arizona and Canada. Click on video link.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=14463815

    Also check out links listed on right of article, has affidavit previously posted on this blog.

  223. Texan, I would imagine that the FBI should be involved rather than Utah or Arizona, since this issue relates to trafficking across an international border. The FBI needs to collaborate with the RCMP on this issue.

  224. I would sort of hope that Idaho should show some interest in acting to stop this trafficking given the more recent growth in the Bonner Ferry and Port Hill areas in Idaho’s panhandle, of Canadian FLDS members into those communities. Joseph Blackmore’s comments about his disbelif that illegal border crossings are still happening in todays day and age would raise howls of laughter from local Bonner Ferry residents. Local farmers with lands along the borders cross with no enforcement for the past 100+ years.

  225. Information on the FLDS in Idaho

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/39696072.html

  226. It’s funny to think that having sex with lots of women is “loyal service to the church”. What a warped sense of values.

    —————————-

    It’s Joseph Smith’s “The Church of God Says I am Entitled to as Much Nooky as I Want.”

    Nobody will ever be able to convince me that the Mormon Church was founded on anything other than one man’s ambition to have his own selfish sexual desires legitimized.

  227. I agree with you totally Mouse.

  228. Well, Mouse, there was also greed and power. You forgot those. Although I think most organized religions involve those two.

  229. Jon Krakauer said that Texas has enough evidence against Warren Jeffs to put him away for four lifetimes. If the State does indeed possess the specific evidence Kraukauer says they have (and he told Anderson Cooper about on live TV last summer), then to me everything else pales in comparison. My worst fear? That WSJ will get off on some technicality. So if what Kraukauer said on TV should not be repeated on this blog, then I request Admin to delete this post.

    Since the interview was last summer I assume it was discussed on this site, but somehow I missed it. I only found the transcript last week. Am not trying to be cryptic, but if this evidence exists it is damning. Has to do with the rape in the temple.

  230. I meant to add that I don’t know if what Krakauer said is true – for the sake of the supposed victim, I hope that it isn’t. Also, since I have not seen it discussed on this site may mean that some of you know that it has no credibility. I don’t know . . . maybe someone can shed some light.

  231. Tapes, carol?

  232. Yes, a tape. I just finally found where there was some brief discussion of this back last July on this site. So, I probably shouldn’t have brought it up. If true, I am sure it will be brought out in the trial.

  233. Well, Granny Toad, not the Tapes Carol is referring to, but, tapes none the less. someone is selling Warren’s sermons on Ebay:

    http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2010/08/warren_jeffs_ebay.php

  234. well, now looking a second time this is 6 month old news.

  235. News of a tapes existence has been out since it was mentioned on AC360.

    It likely wont make it out to the public due to the nature of its content, but it will be played in court.

  236. I think it’s Jay Beswick who’s selling Warren’s sermon’s on Ebay. I’m considering buying some just to have.

  237. Carol in Carolina
    I have been following this saga for a while and yes I have heard the rumors on a tape, but to my knowledge nobody “out here” in the public has knowledge of what is on the tapes. That is we know that when Warren Jeffs was arrested there were audio tapes in his car. Apart from that the source of the rumor is Krakauer and how he would know is uncertain to me.
    For now I, personally, take it to be a rumor.

    On the other hand all of the charges against the FLDS men have been based on hard evidence (i.e. DNA linking a baby to that had to be concieved when the mother is underage). Jeffs is facing one of his charges without, from what one can gather from the indictments, etc., proof of birth of a child, so that supposes that the aggravated rape charge is based on some other sort of “hard” evidence.

  238. Speaking of Warren Jeffs, here’s another polygamists profit who’s tying to catch up with Warren in India:

    http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-world-asia/20110222/news.manhas39wives/

  239. Yes Texan, I posted that piece on the polygamist Indian man yesterday. He is looking to visit the US as well.

  240. While the existence of a Temple bed tape is indeed a rumor, the fact it was mentioned by Krakauer lends immense credibility to me.

    I highly recommend his book “Under the Banner of Heaven” which details the background of this and other crazy and murderous offshoots.

    If you think the existence of such a tape isnt possible, you havent heard just how crazy these guys can get.

    Interestingly, the “Four O’clock Murders” were committed in Texas by the LeBaron fundy group (who killed appx 25 total), but long enough ago so that many have forgotten the crimes.

    Its time for a refresher.

  241. Did anyone else notice that Allen said he had a 10th grade education?

  242. I have read Krakauer’s book and I have been following this story since the “raid” on YFZ, but somehow I had missed the AC360 interview. Thanks for the comments and insights.

  243. So in the real world what is a 10th grade FLDS education? 3rd or 4th grade?

  244. Readin writin and rithmatic, pretty much. I get the impression some boys get more math in order to do what’s necessary in the building trades. Back in my time that was still pretty much 5th grade I guess, but these days I don’t know what that is. We know they’re not taught sciences, government, civics, languages, no normal curriculum.

  245. Did anyone else notice that Allen said he had a 10th grade education?

    ProudTexan said this on February 22, 2011 at 10:36 PM

    Generally speaking, with Allen’s 10th grade education he is a scholar.

    Too bad he speaks rather inferior and rapes his underage cousins. Other than that… he seems t0 have a lot going form him, esp. since he has gone to Purgatory Jail for 30-day extended vacation until next month where he can show off that 10th grade educat8titionl

  246. S posted a link directly to the article on a study of mormon polygamy but here is the science explained to the public:

    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-02/iu-ph1022111.php

    polygamy suppresses number of children by an individual woman

  247. from a pure biological point of view that is confirmation that polygamy is detrimental to women because the fertility of a female is driven by a large number of factors which include access to food, nutrition, and stress, so the dropping level of fertility within 1800s polygamous women is a strong indicator of the all of the factors discussed here and in the canadian case discussion thread of the inherit negative impact of polygamy on women

  248. Thanks HHG – the number of offspring born to a particular woman in a polygamous marriage is reduced compared to the number of children these women might have in a monogamous relationship, contrary to assertions made…

  249. I’m no scientist, but I have taken the population at certain dates (like the 1980’s or the 1940’s etc), plus the census data on ratio of adults to children and I have proven that the majority of the people born in Short Creek, male and female, leave and never return. If all the children of the founders of Short Creek had stayed there, stayed faithful and reproduced at the same rate then they would number in the millions and there would be huge cities in that area. That’s one reason why they have to get the girls pregnant early and reduce the amount of education; to make it harder and harder to leave.

  250. Allen Steed is worth watching to see the reception he receives from the FLDS Church community. He has been given greater responsibility at YFZ Ranch and appeared to be held in greater esteem. If he know becomes a ‘Poster Boy’ for The Work that will speak volumes on the unrepentent and fanatical mindset of this Fundamentalist LDS faction. If Steed successfully completes his 36 month probation, then he will not have to register as a sex offender and his fellow seven (7) priesthood cohorts are likely to be treated by the FLDS Church community likesame.

    I suspect this sentence will make Allen Steed a celebrity of praise amongst the Warrenites, watch to see if he’s shunned or promoted by the FLDS Leadership.

  251. The question, CalJim is whether or not he was instructed to take a plea or did it on his own.

  252. “…I have proven that the majority of the people born in Short Creek, male and female, leave and never return.”

    Betty, I would dearly love to see your data. Can you post it here?

    Or… is there any way you can get my email addy from our benevolent Admin?

  253. E. Texas, I did not save it. I was proving it only to myself. But I could redo it. I’ll give it some thought.

  254. I know that an estimated 60 – 80 percent of the children raised in the AUB leave. That data is available.

  255. More data from the AUB, via Janet Bennion’s book “Women of Principle” – 40% of polygamous marriages dissolve within the first year of the marriage.

  256. Betty, Given the post courtroom pleading by Allen Steed and his attorney Jim Bradshaw, who is also heavily involved in UEP Trust matters, who commented that this was a better resolution than going to trial smewhat indicates that Steed acted with Warren’s blessing. My question is that doesn’t this then constitute ‘Answer Them Something’ because the trial loomed as an even bigger cost and liability of a bigger conviction?

    Though Willie Jessop isn’t going to own up to this most recent plea conviction the fact remains that,’Answer Them Nothing’ has now morphed into,’Answer Them Something’ if we can’t likely do better at trial. Allen Steed was called to testify at Warren’s trial concerning Elissa Walls claims and instead of taking the 5th Amendment his testimony itself incriminated him, in part, to this now guilty conviction. No doubt Allen Steed becomes hero to Warrenites and admitted 3rd Degree felon to we ‘Gentile’ folks.

  257. Exactly, S. It’s not difficult to prove. The population has not grown significantly even though the ratio of adults to children is much higher than average. If you look at the census data, the ratio of men to women and adults to children has remained fairly constant, even though they are quite different from the average in distribution and they have a much higher rate of birth per woman than average (since the average american woman has access to birth control). If you take 1000 adult women in 1920 and they reproduce at the rate of 3 apiece in their lifetimes, then in 1940 you should have 3000 new babies born and 1500 of them are now women of child bearing age. Maintain that rate of birth and on 1960, you would have 4500 births of which 2250 are now women of child bearing age. In 1980, you would have had 13,500 new births of which 6750 are of child bearing age. In 2000, that number would be 20,250 births of which 10,125 are women of child bearing age. At this point it should be obvious that most people are leaving. Few people alive in 1920 are still alive at 2000, but most born in 1940 are and almost all of those born in 1960 and 1980 are. That means that the population of short creek would be about 40K, just by these rough statistics, but it has remained about constant at 8K-12K.

    When I did this I was arguing with someone from the FLDS (Pliggy probably) who was saying that polygamy math works out fine because there are always new girls being born. So I set up a spread sheet that showed a man in the first generation of a closed group getting a new wife every 10 years. By the third decade, the newly matured group of men have to delay their first wife. By the time that first group of men is 70, each of them will have 6 wives (one from their decade and 5 stolen from each of the next generations) the newest generation of men turning 20 will have no wives at all ever. That assumes waiting until the girls are also 20. But even if you lower the age of the girls, the same relentless logic applies because those girls birth a consistently even number of males and females. The more young brides you have available, the more young men you have to compete for the next batch of brides.

  258. AUB are substantially more open – better educated, somewhat (if not significantly) less secretive, allowed more individuality (little to none of that watch, wear, eat, say only what your told by the priesthood) and I strongly doubt they dabble in underage marriages.

    That’s not comparable to current FLDS modus operandi.

  259. Thanks Betty. Describing your calculations and methodology is helpful.

    On the other hand:

    If you look at the census data, the ratio of men to women and adults to children has remained fairly constant…

    What I question is the census data. How is that obtained from a secretive society? How can we bank on a remotely correct FLDS census?

    Just posing this off the top of my head.

  260. Absolutely true, ET – but the AUB do make data available, and they are the only group to do so, to the best of my knowledge.

  261. Right you are, S.

  262. Betty – excellent job

  263. ‘One Man Rule’ puts the thinking, unquestioned finances and church planning into the prophets control. Their is no leadership council, shared power beyond Bishops whom are subject to ‘being handled’ and the popular sentiment of the FLDS membership evolves into the Prophet’s “Keep Sweet” propaganda. Warren is more than just a little willing to thin his breed stock in order to form a more obedient, subservient and scattered enclaves. There’s big trouble ahead : UEP Trust resolution will not return to FLDS Church control, BC polygamy reference case is not likely to overturn established statutes and an imprisoned prophet for his remaining lifetime is highly problematic to ‘One Man Rule’.

  264. “solemnization of a prohibited marriage”, Utah has some peculiar laws. Did they just hatch that one new this year?

  265. I’d about bet that “solemnization of a prohibited marriage” does not exist.

  266. Thanks, S.

    Agreed about the census data. I suspect that the number of women and the number of children is under reported. I also suspect that the women reproduce on average at a higher rate than that. Although you have some women who never have children for medical reasons, they are few in relation to everyone else and you have quite a few women having 13 kids over 25 years.

  267. I think your estimates are conservative.

  268. Yes. I don’t have reliable estimates, but I, too, agree with ‘conservative’.

  269. I would also hazard a guess that some (many?) of those who successfully leave the FLDS go and join another group that practices plural marriage. They still believe in the JS story.

    At least in those groups, if it doesn’t work out, they can leave without losing and arm and a leg – i.e., their children.

    At that point the numbers are skewed.

  270. an ex FLDS member once commented that people were leaving “in droves” in the seventies and eighties – is that true ? if so, why ?

  271. ::oops:: Typing too fast…

    That should read AN arm and a leg.

  272. They were leaving the FLDS because of the change to ‘one man rule.’

    Mostly what occurred were various splits / schisms.

  273. Granny, I haven’t heard that wording, but I read that within the last 10 years or so, Utah had made a law against participating in a wedding ceremony that is not legal – both being a celebrant and a bride/groom are illegal as a separate charge.

  274. BREAKING NEWS

    Warren has officially taken over the Presidency again, Wendell has resigned, (we knew) and also David Zitting, Mayor of Hildale has resigned er been exed.

    See

    sltrib.com

  275. John Llewellyn has another installment of his new book available for your review – this chapter of “Mormon Polygamy : A Virus of the Mind” is entitled Chapter 1 : Polygamy and Respect

    http://polygamybooks.org/2011/02/23/virus-of-the-mind-chapter-1.aspx

  276. Hmmmmmmmm sounds like Wendell was exed back in January like was reported. Shows we’ve got some pretty good sources going here.

    CAJim, if you’re waiting for Willie to respond, you’re probably gonna be waiting a long time. Willie was exed along with Wendell, Merril and David Zitting.

  277. It appears that Leroy isn’t taking his slap down laying down, he apparently is going to appeal that slap down to a higher court.

  278. who “inherited” the wives of Wendell, Merrill, and David ? any clues?

  279. I wonder how Warren retaking the Presidency affects the ruling by Judge Linberg about letting the Presidency intervene in the UEP matters.

    As for Jim Bradshaw, I’d bet my penny loafers he’s somehow related to Cyril Bradshaw, father of Louisa who is married to Dan “the molester” Jessop.

  280. Don’t know BiB. Maybe Leroy got his back from Wendell and inherited some who aren’t his sisters. Wendell was married to several daughters of Rulon.

    As for Merril’s wives, I feel doubly sorry for whoever had to taken Krazy Kathleen.

  281. huyh, what do you mean Leroy is appealing?

  282. Mike Watkiss is reporting that Willie Jessop has been ex’ed as well

    http://www.azfamily.com/news/Sources-Jeffs-ousts-prominent-leaders-from-FLDS-church-116749874.html

  283. well well ,, how is warren going to rule from jail??? LOL wow,, looks like willie and wendell and merrill are on their own

  284. Well the Horse Apples have officially hit the Fan.

    No one knows which FLDS to trust anymore – probably cant trust any of em.

    I mean, with the President getting axed – its not a good sign of stability or Prophetic foundation.

    I’m goin with the fact they run that molester club by the seat of their pants.

  285. COLORADO CITY, Utah – New developments from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as sources tell 3TV’s Mike Watkiss dozens of prominent men have been ousted.

    Sources say incarcerated leader Warren Jeffs has kicked dozens of prominent men out of the FLDS church.

    Those recently kicked out include David Zitting, the elected mayor or Hilldale, Utah; Willie Jessop, an enforcer; and Merrill Jessop, the leader of the YFZ Ranch.

    ——————————-

    Willie Jessop ~ “enforcer”

    If so many people haven’t been abused and hurt by him, I would laugh. What kind of “church” needs an enforcer?! Good grief!

    The FLDS is truly an organization that resembles a crime ring more than a house of worship.

  286. I have also heard that they have been “instructed” aka told/required to get rid of ALL internet inside the “crick”. people are apparently getting rid of their internet cell phone plans, selling laptops, and such. seems like a desperate attempt to keep everyone ignorant. some businesses have moved to offices closer to the highway and away from houses so they can have an internet connection. my source was just as confused as I was. seems like they’re trying to become more self sufficient as well, with some fields being plowed up for planting this year. “drawing closer together” and “closer to the Lord” or some crap. it’s getting seriously effed up.

  287. This sounds like either the typical loyalty shunning to test the exed leaqders responses to the Prophet Warrens authority. You recall,”I have a message from the prophet, do you accept his message”? Then the exed get to sign sworn confessions and Warren sits back to see how much his axing effects everyone or if they all start rating each other out. You know the ole I confess Wendell made me, I confess but Merril did it first or I was with Willie and I didn’t know what else I could do confession(s).

    on another level this could be a preemptive strike to preclude subpoenas or other witnessing at trial against Warren or the pending UEP Trust resolution or this Fridays filed Canadian proceeding about the three 12-13 year old Canadian ‘Child Brides’ brought illegally into Warren’s stable.

    It’s a little to able to read just now but what what Warren has destroyed, Warren can restore. My guess is that this purge did both preemptive protection and reassertive control of the FLDS Church. I trust Chief Justice Robert Bauman in BC, Canada sees the depth of control a prisoner in Big Lake Prison, Texas holds over his wayward FLDS sect.

    Willie Jessop never was an announced voice of the FLDS Church hierarchy, that left him in a jettisonable position whenever it best suited Warren Jeffs’ better interests. After this purge clears away, anyone or all could be reinstated.

  288. Keep the pot stirring, make it look like things are coming to a head, be ready for the martyr’s release from prison, let’s be ready to go to the next level.

    Hmmmm. Seems to me all this gives Lyle a pretty big hand in the next level.

  289. I assume that the court in Texas will not be swayed by the I am not a member so I don’t have money for my defense which might be the strategy behind this also in order to not pay for the remainder of the trials other than his.

    with respect to getting rid of internet – my guess is that warren really really does not want his flock to have access to the information that will come out during his trial

  290. I think that we should all chip in for one of those screen trons to post in town and broadcast the trial into the town

  291. CAJim: It’s a little to able to read just now but what what Warren has destroyed, Warren can restore. My guess is that this purge did both preemptive protection and reassertive control of the FLDS Church.

    ———————–

    Warren sounds even more whacko than ever. If he wasn’t in jail, I bet he’d be hustling them off to Guyana or some such place.

    I almost feel sorry for Merrill, Willie etc. All those years of dedicated service, then kicked in the balls, by a man behind bars no less.

    I said “almost.”

  292. yehaaa6 said “it’s getting seriously effed up.”

    I agree. Warren continually turns the things he touches into dross. Perhaps some of the flds will finally lose faith in him and quietly stop believing in him as the prophet.

  293. Oh, my guess is some of those guys are not so much ‘kicked’ as just being sent on another mission. Read, stay out of the way and keep a low profile.

    I’ll wait to see if I hear their wives and children have been reassigned.

    But can anyone second guess a seriously deluded crazy person? I agree with yehaaa6 ‘it’s getting seriously effed up’.

  294. On the cheekier side—Father’s Day this year should be even more confusing than EVER, with all the exing and proable wife re-assigning that should come next…if things hold true to form. What a mess! They always seem to top themselves in the Holy $#&* catagory of life!

  295. NPR reports:

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/02/23/134008136/jeffs-restored-as-head-of-flds-despite-legal-troubles

  296. so these families are now torn apart, but will no one will be reassigned as no marriages are permitted at this time ?

  297. I love the word EXPEDITE on the Department of Commerce form Warren signed. (attached to the NPR story)

    I’m not sure I understand the part where WSJ answered “No” to the question:

    Do you want to Remove individuals from the Business Entity?

  298. I don’t think it’s clear yet whether all the families are torn apart. Not clear at all.

  299. Just in case families are reassigned, I said a prayer in Church tonight for whomever gets stuck with Krazy Kathleen.

    E Texas, do you have a link to the NPR story?

    And the Leroy appealing thing is Leroy Jessop appealing the Court of Appeals calling him a liar about his indigent status.

  300. Never mind ET, I saw it. Thanks.

  301. Did you notice on the document that Warren said his address was a PO Box in Hildale, Utah. I’ll bet the Sheriff in Reagan County would be surprised to learn the new address of his jail.

  302. bib: “who “inherited” the wives of Wendell, Merrill, and David ? any clues?”

    I bet it’s the future occupant of the giant H house.

    This is crazy. Kicking out the big money makers? Did they ex the guys already in prison? Wouldn’t that be a kick in the teeth? The Merril thing is hilarious. I wonder if Betty will leave now that both of her parents are apostate, or will she wait for her fiance Warren to pray down the walls of the Big Lake jail and take her on a honeymoon to the floating city of Enoch as they hie to Kolob. People of Short Creek, the 1 man thing isn’t working. Now is the time to hitch your train to another wagon.

  303. I don’t think he’s taking them all to the YFZ Rockville, it seems that he’s decided that maybe Short Crick isn’t forsaken after all.

  304. It is abundantly clear that the “one man rule” is not working, and has not worked in a long time. The FLDS need to develop some sort of a democratic structure which allows them to impeach a dysfunctional leader. If they don’t their people will continue to suffer.

  305. BnB the Fundamentalist LDS prophet is a lifetime role, there has never been a replacement system for Heavenly Fathers ‘mouth’. The succession is monarchical but not necessarily by bloodline. Warren today more than representing an ‘End-Time’ scenario really reflects a ‘Dead-End’. He has established a death grip level of control, he holds the purse strings and the loyalty of his entire faction. Don’t forget that as Principal of the Alta Academy, Warren Jeffs looms very large in the minds of the middle aged Warrenite followers. They see him as fighting a ‘Holy War’ and he is Heavenly Fathers chosen leader here on Earth. In 2004 Warren purged Sam Barlow and 12-20 families and went on to establish this ‘One Man Rule’ to an ever heightened degree, he’s the more exclusive tyrant today than back in 2004, this latest purge if established will again strengthen his grip on this fanatical sect.

  306. “Now is the time to hitch your train to another wagon.”

    No, let’s not leave one cult for another. We need to realize that the “one man rule” means we each are the one man/woman that has the right to rule in our own life.

  307. http://www.azfamily.com/v/?i=116749874

  308. I feel sorry for all the normal people out there. WOW

  309. amen to that, cement.

  310. Point for cement.

  311. Perfectly stated, cement!

  312. “Warren Jeffs retakes FLDS presidency, allegedly expels 30”

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51297760-76/church-jeffs-utah-flds.html.com

    According to this Warren is calling in during church services; former Flds member says the word is that “Wendell and Merrill weren’t doing their jobs” and that members aren’t bein exed just on Sundays, but almost every other day.

  313. type above = should have read “being” exed.

  314. Well so much for living happily ever after in polygamy land.

  315. Cement: “No, let’s not leave one cult for another.”

    Who said anything about them joining the LDS Church?

    Sorry, Cement, it was just too easy.

  316. Whoops, I just remembered that I think the Trib doesn’t like actual links posted; seems like they had issues with Hope Org. over this. Sorry Admin. – would edit if I could.

  317. Links to the Trib are ok, they were just jealous of Hope for have a better compilation of articles than they did.

    Since, they tried compiling them, then they lost Brooke and during her last days there, they changed the website and it all fell apart on them anyway.

    Now, they pretend to compile them, but its still in fail mode.

    The articles can be searched, at least until the next website revamp.

  318. Talk about Prophetic – the polygamy rap video (language warning) parodys the F to the L to the D to the S and is not only hilarious,,, but it really rings their bell.

    The even have Warren with a phone in jail and a cell phone getting texted by God.

  319. Justice in Canada may be caught up in red tape

    http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Opinion+social+worker+about+year+marriage+Warren+Jeffs+lost+tape/4336136/story.html

  320. The problem the trib had with hope.org was not links, but copying whole articles. The trib wanted to be able to control (update, remove, charge for) the articles. Not sure if they won their claim that it’s copy right infringement since hope.org put in proper references and is not using it for profit.

  321. Staff at Reagan County Jail in Big Lake, Texas, where Jeffs is housed awaiting trial on bigamy and sexual-assault charges, said that all inmates have phones in their cells and are able to make calls on prepaid plans.

    That’s from the latest SLTrib article. It explains how Jeffs is making the calls.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51297760-76/church-jeffs-utah-flds.html.csp#disqus_thread

  322. Thanks for that confirmation, PT. It all makes sense when you know the facts.

  323. A couple of quotes from that Vancouver Sun article:

    “On Sept. 24, 2008, a government social worker in Creston got a fax outlining how four years earlier a 13-year-old girl from Bountiful had been taken illegally to the United States by her parents and married to Warren Jeffs.”
    ….

    “Bizarrely, there might not have even been a constitutional reference case had the attorney-general’s ministry been given a copy of the fax in September 2008.”
    ==============

    Amazing? Probably not. Just another instance where I have to struggle against becoming a conspiracy nut. I guess that comes from my background. Gah!

    —————
    Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Opinion+social+worker+about+year+marriage+Warren+Jeffs+lost+tape/4336136/story.html#ixzz1EsiH15o0

  324. Oh… PT… Do you have any information on whether the Reagan County jail staff monitor or record Warren’s phone calls?

  325. It seems pretty bizarre to me that some one who is in jail for, among other things, arranging illegal marriages to children would be allowed a cellphone so that he could do just that. So people who run meth labs can call home and arrange to have the next shipment sent? Phone calls IN THEIR CELLS???? That’s crazy.

  326. I’m guessing they do, but I’m attempting to find out more.

  327. Actually, I thought the whole ‘Polygamy Pages’ was in a fall mode with Brooke Adams in charge of it. She spent more time trying to correct, alienate and promote a romanticized view of polygamy when the reality of mormon bigamy is far more shocking and an obvious blight on human and civil rights than she cared to give credence to examining. Her relationship with Willie Jessop was on a 60/40 exchange to benefit the FLDS Church spin on her blog or she wouldn’t have been granted any access to the FLDS Church. Her attempt was always to put the practice of polygamy in some benign position and idealistic recall but the felony practices, misogynistic treatments and child abuses kept falling into her
    ‘Hallmark’ memories viewpoint. She, for instance, focused on the BESS schools superior academic focus in BC, Canada and asked no questions as to why this primary and secondary church school lacked full credentials for the 11th & 12th Grades nor why the graduates from secondary school was so abysmal? Of course, if she asked impertinent questions like that her access to the FLDS Church would have been denied to her, she got played big time,

  328. “Well so much for living happily ever after in polygamy land”

    A little interesting side note. With my tax return, I bought some videos among otherthings. One was Toy Story 2. During the end credits, you have Barbie getting exhausted acting “happy”. It was just a gig, but the 30 seconds of it got on my nerves, and it is EXACTLY like how I remember people talking before I left; that false happiness. Imagine that false “happiness” constantly.

  329. computers and their cookies. I was looked in under my wife’s name. That comment from “thumparinasfurfriends” is from Cement.

  330. Cement: “No, let’s not leave one cult for another.”

    Who said anything about them joining the LDS Church?

    Sorry, Cement, it was just too easy.

    =======================
    Or Impact Training.

  331. somebody who likes to post elsewhere should go smack julieworth on cnn comments about how benign adult polygamy is and point the readers toward the canadian case documents on the inherent detriment polygamy is to women and children….

  332. Julieworthnis a polygamy apologist.

    Warrens calls from the cell sound like a freedom of information request waiting to happen.

  333. If Mayor Zitting and Mayor Johnson were both relieved of duty, wouldn’t Hildale and CC have to have elections to vote for new Mayors?

  334. Elections???? Are you kidding?

    No such thing as elections in a theocratic society.

  335. ET, the Vatican is a theocratic state – and the cardinals still elect the pope. I would suggest that the FLDS need the same process.

  336. Using the Vatican as an example, the have a Mayor whonis elected in an election by the residents os Vatican City.

  337. Hildale and Colorado City should be required toehold elections if the are an incorporated city.

  338. Oh gosh! They’ll hold elections alright. But if there’s only one candidate per incorporation, who are those folks going to vote for? Even if they put up at least two per incorporation, who do you think they’re going to vote for?

    It’s like the LDS: if the church leaders say vote Republican, there may be plenty of members (there are SO MANY!) who may vote Democratic, but who do you think is going to win?

    Just sayin’….

  339. Anyway, the probability is, most folks will abstain from voting, the leadership and maybe a few designated voters will shoe in the designated candidate. It’s all legal and life goes on… corruption on a small scale (compared to the rest of the world’s political practices).

    Boy, I must be feeling just a tad cynical today. I should shut up and lurk.

  340. Jailed polygamist retakes control of church, ousts 30 members

    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/24/texas.polygamist.jeffs/index.html

    so Nielsen and wee Willie are out. anyone know who else is gone?

  341. I think it’s time for Oprah to visit yfzippers for a follow-up story!!!!

  342. Fortunately the LDS leaders, at least in the states I have lived in, do not suggest who members should vote for. They also do not allow political candidates to use church property for political purposes. No flyers on bulletin boards or car windows, no political talks in church meetings. LDS politicians range from Harry Reid on the left to Orrin Hatch on the right. To the best of my knowledge both of my examples are members in good standing.

    I think the flds leaders annoint candidates for the Short Creek offices. The flds faithful vote for the annointed person and he wins. As long as the flds are the majority it will stay that way.

  343. Wonder if the Jail in which Warren Jeffs is being held is monitering his phone calls?? That would be interesting

  344. Chemist – I think that any religious organization which supports a political candidate runs the risk of losing its tax exempt status.

  345. chemist, I have read, from a link on this blog pertaining to Amelia’s Palace, history of the LDS church and politics, and it seems they are notorious for indicating, in one way or another, how members should vote – or at least which side of the political spectrum they should appear to be affiliated with publically. They intentionally position members on both sides of the aisle – republican and democrat, and have done so for many decades.

  346. ET, don’t you dare “shut up and lurk”. I ,ove your thoughts and comments.

  347. I am speaking from my experince as a very active LDS memeber who has lived in several different states in the midwest and the west, also as a person who has held leadership positions in different wards and stakes. I have also been involved in local politics with both LDS members and non members. If there were signal as to whom I was to vote for or do volunteer work for; I never got those messages.

    My experince goes back 40-50 years. Obviously I cannot speak about what happened prior to that.

  348. Chemist, just to clarify, the link wasn’t from this blog, but from Recovering from Mormonism – another blog I keep up with. Sorry.

  349. Ok… you asked for it….

    I lived in SLC for too many years – 75% LDS in those days. And then I worked for a huge corporation in another state for many years. Neither entity will tell you who to vote for. But like nikkig says, they make it indirectly known – what/who best benefits the corporation – and tell you to “Get out and VOTE!” I admit, right or wrong, I extrapolate from personal experience.

    Too many people (not just religious folks) are too lazy (or scared) to think for themselves; they really want to hear what some trusted other thinks, then they do likewise and claim it to be their own decision/opinion/idea. Yep, I’ve been guilty too.

    Like my late polygamous husband used to answer a lot of questions, with another question: “Who are you trying to please?”

    I’m sure you can figure out the implication.
    (And on top of that, he was grammatically incorrect.) 😀

  350. S. Yes, I think that is a major reason the LDS leaders try to stay politically neutral. Every year in the fall before an election the Church leaders send out a letter to be read in church meetings. That letter encourages people to vote, but states that the church and it’s leaders do not endorse candidates, that church property, mailing lists, etc are not to be used for political purposes.

  351. Chemist, then I stand corrected. This may have been something that was in practice during the days of Utah fighting for statehood, and during the days of many other practices that the modern-day LDS church seems to have moved away from. Your experience would of course speak volumes over something I, as a curious NBM, have read on a blog. Apologies again.

  352. Maybe I was too obtuse to pick up the signals from the church and from my employers. I never felt that I was urged to vote a certain way by either of them. The only exception would have been a major defense contractor I worked for years ago. In that case employees were encouraged to contact their US senators and Representatives regarding contracts that would have been favorable to my employer. That was before I was LDS.

  353. nikkig: Your apology is accepted and I was not offebded at all by your reference. There were many unsavory practices, including polygamy, that the mainstream LDS have jettisoned. They are part of the LDS history and I do not run away from that history, b ut acknowledge it and am grateful that it is history.

  354. Chemist, I am NOT challenging your experience – not at all. I think you are absolutely correct based on your experience.

    I think I must have a some kind of BS antenna embedded in my psyche. Nowadays, I put a lot of trust in my ability to “read between the lines.” I don’t think I would have survived lo these many years without it.

    On the other hand, while I was FLDS, I was a very very good girl and (mostly) successfully kept it buried in the mud, so I got along in a fairly exemplary way. I finally couldn’t keep it down there anymore. It reared up and started screaming at me.

    Did you ever live in SLC, Chemist?

  355. Addendum… having lived in several very diverse cities in this nation, Mormondom anywhere outside of SLC was simply not the same. That’s my experience.

  356. I think “Mormondom” outside Utah is very different from Utah “Mormondom”
    If you say the word polygamy to a NY Mormon, they are horrified. It should not be mentioned, nor should it be tolerated.

  357. Ok, so back to the real topic at hand – the Merrill that everyone is referring to as being exed is Merrill Jessop that was Carolyn’s husband right? Wasn’t he running YFZ?

  358. Yes Mikki it is the same Merrill Jessop and he was in charge at YFZ.

  359. Wow, I would love to hear Carolyn’s reaction to this latest news, and to learn what will become of their daughter Betty now.

  360. After reading comments on board, glad to see that attacks on Chemist’s religion were apologized for, believe we need to all work together to get information out about FLDS, we need to get the LDS rank and file on board, in the end that’s what will be needed to get AZ & UT to step up and deal with the problem. IMO most LDS persons reading this blog seeing comments about the “LDS cult” are not going to be supportive of goal of this blog to end forced polygamy and abuse of under-aged persons such as teen brides and lost boys. IMO the LDS person reading this blog would see it as another LDS bashing forum, which is then ignored as another bigoted website.

    We need the LDS church members to see this as an informative site where they can get the truth about Warren Jeffs and his crimes.

  361. I would like to know what Carolyn thinks…too!!

    Things might not be so rosy for Betty now that Dad is gone. But..she made her choice, she has to live with it.

  362. Speaking of polygamy and Mormonism, here’s a scathing attack on polygamy from the Book of Mormon,

    23But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

    24Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

    25Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

    26Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

    27Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
    28For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

    29Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

    30For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

    31For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

    Verse 31 on hits home on polygamy being the abomination of their husbands. the word “their” refering to woman victimized by polygamy.

    Read the entire chapter: http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/jacob/2?lang=eng

    A very powerful condemnation of polygamy, surprising that it comes from the very Book of Mormon that the FLDS claim to believe in.

  363. #

    I would like to know what Carolyn thinks…too!!

    Things might not be so rosy for Betty now that Dad is gone. But..she made her choice, she has to live with it.

    jobo said this on February 24, 2011 at 1:42 PM

    The good thing about this is that Carolyn is there to help her daughter out, and hopefully Betty will now see the true nature of Warren Jeffs.

  364. Speaking of religion, here’s a youtube video post by Elodrado Success newspaper, note how the Catholic bishop encourages prayer for all Christian denominations, have we ever heard a pray or concern for others from Warren Jeffs?

  365. I certainly do not feel that I, in any way, attacked Chemist’s religion, nor have I ever on this blog called the LDS church a cult. I did reference a link to an article on the political history of the LDS church. I then apologized that I mis-stated where the link was posted, and I apologized for thinking that the information in the link may still be in practice, if Chemist’s experience is to the contrary. Other former LDS posters then stated their experiences within the religion.

    I completely agree that due to some responsibility that the LDS church shares in the history of polygamy, anyone attempting to make a difference with the FLDS would want, and even need, them on board with their efforts. I would hope members of all types of Christian religions are ready and willing to help with this cause. It is definately on my heart to learn more and do with that knowledge whatever I am meant to do. I mean no offense to anyone, and will only ask questions, reference links, and maybe from time to time, state my opinion on this blog, but I will always reference it as just that, only my opinion.

  366. A TExan–do you really think Carolyn could get Betty out of there? I do hope you are right, but I sorta doubt the flds will let her go.

    My concern is for Barbara and Merrills young son…he has no mother there and now dad????

  367. I feel that no one will be able to get Betty out of YFZ until she really wants to leave. The ousting of her father may shake her faith in the beliefs with which she was raised. Hopefully it will – her’s and many others. Isn’t Carolyn’s sister-wife, the one who has acted as Betty’s mother since her return (Barbara was it?) still at YFZ? So many things to wonder, wait and see.

  368. nikkig, Barbara passed away last year.

  369. Nikkig – Barbara is dead, having died in late 2009.

    I think Ben, the youngest son of Barbara and Merril, is living in the Crick. That was the last I knew of him. Unless he’s left there, Merril is in the Crick also, under the care of Dr. Barlow.

  370. hmmm…I am thinking that even if Betty wanted to leave–she would not be allowed to? Just my thought. I bet she is not even at the yfzippers..I bet she is in an unknown place??? As crazy as these people are…anything and everything could be happening. And I sorta doubt Leroy and the boys would allow Carolyn within 15 miles of that place..

  371. Soooo? I guess if the weenie calls from the jail and tells them to serve up the kool-aid–they would do it???

  372. No but if Betty were to make the call, there would be people to respond to her request.

  373. I am from CC and we(the priesthood holders) have been directed(via a “revelation” from Warren read by Lyle to the people during our Monday morning prayer meeting) to get off the internet “severely”, even the buying and selling of material goods is now forbidden, but it makes no sense, because without the ability to buy or sell our “homemade” goods and the find best price for the materials or find work for the construction companies will put many out of work and surely bankrupt the bishops storehouse. If warren thinks this will help us ‘come out of the world in a more perfect way’ it doesn’t, because we will have to leave town more often and work and deal with “gentiles” to get the resources we need to support our families and “build up Zion”

    This proves to me that Warren and Lyle have no idea how to make our community self-reliant and self-sufficent.

  374. E Texas: I have never lived in SLC and am aware that there may be a difference in thinking between the LDS who live outside of UT, AZ, etc and who may be converts to the faith versus the intermountain LDS who may well have ancestors who practiced polygamy in the 1800s.
    My experiences in the LDS faith may indeed be different than someone else’s experience.
    Also, I did not take the reference nikkig posted as an attack on my faith.

  375. See I am behind on the times. Somehow I missed that Barbara passed.

  376. A Texan the BOM quote is of no real consequence in Mormon history other than to point out that it was trumped by D&C-132 and of course the living Prophet trumps either of those scriptural resources. If the BOM passage had any causal effect at stopping polygamy the whole tenet never would have developed within the LDS and didn’t within the Reformed LDS. Many pro-polygamy LDS already exist and are the only fertile ground available to existing polygamist sects to recruit any new members. Rulon Jeffs was just such a recruit to the FLDS and his first wife was an LDS Bishop’s daughter, who divorced Rulon and her father saw to it that he was excommunicated from the LDS.

    Some active LDS like ‘Chemist’ who blogs here regularly understands the full problem of the FLDS Church in all of it’s facets and phases. He is a reliable source of combating and sharing against this organized underworld crime spree.

  377. Anonymous 3:52 – you are currently a memeber of the FLDS? Why do you think Warren, as your leader and the supposed voice of God to your people, would give a directive that would put so many in financial jeopardy like you say limiting internet access would do? It appears that it doesn’t seem right to you for Warren to require this new rule. Have you considered what his personal reasons may be for this?

  378. Nikkig you don’t seem to be aware that Warren teaches an ‘End-Time’ doctrine the world is coming to an end and only those CHOSEN to be resident upon the ‘Lands of Refuge’ will be lifted up and be The Elect. So the most important thing is to follow his teachings and ‘Keep Sweet’ or you won’t be exalted in the next life and end up like all of these EVIL ‘Gentiles'(that’s you and me). Hurry up now, quickly, do as your told and prove your fevency or you won’t be amongst the CHOSEN and be thrown out unto the utter darkness.

  379. Some information on Barbara Jessop. She apparently had a stroke at the yfz.

    Barbara Steed Jessop BORN: July 16, 1953
    DIED: December 8, 2009
    LOCATION: TX

  380. Yes, I am aware of this doctrine taught by Warren. Anon3:52 seems to be not “keeping sweet” if you will, by posting his concern with the new internet rule here, therefore beginning to question some of Warren’s teachings (hopefully). I was only attempting to see if Anon3:52 had considered that there may personal motives in this directive (something the rest of already know). The tone of his/her post certainly seemed that way. Call me a dreamer CAJim, but I was seeing maybe a glimmer of hope from this poster being so frustrated with decisions Warren is making for their community and where it will lead them.

  381. yes I’m a current flds member.
    Since warren was moved to texas, he has been able to direct affairs in Colorado City more than he did from kingman or bluffdale,as a results things are definely more controlled and isolating. The way he talks and the “revelations” he gives are gloomy. He talks about the destruction of parts of US via earthquakes and illlness, and even had read to us a “revelation” that was in the form a warning to the president of united states and governors of the states and congress, of imminent destruction if they don’t release him soon and also return the UEP back into his control.
    You can draw your own conclusions of his motives.

  382. I have drawn many conclusions, but the question is, have you? You must see that some of this doesn’t make sense – right? Can you shed any light on the recent exing of Merrill Jessop and the others?

  383. Anonymous flds member,

    I have questions, but I’ll just start with 2 or 3 if you don’t mind and are willing.

    1. Are you in agreement with Warren, his revelations and directives?
    (It doesn’t sound like you are, but I don’t want to assume.)

    2. What will you and others do in response to these directions from Warren?

    3. If the internet is banned, how are you able to post here?

  384. Federal Judge rules in favor of FLDS in ruling that could place the UEP back under control of FLDS. This is bad news.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=14503606

  385. Here’s more on UEP be given back to FLDS control, wonder what was this judge thinking, hope Wisan appeals to federal appeals courts.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705367416/Judge-rules-UEP-Trust-of-FLDS-assets-is-unconstitutional-and-an-illegal-takeover-by-Utah.html

  386. Yes, let us hope that the UEP ruling is appealed and overturned.

  387. even had read to us a “revelation” that was in the form a warning to the president of united states and governors of the states and congress, of imminent destruction if they don’t release him soon and also return the UEP back into his control.

    —————————

    Why do I visualize him stamping his foot and pouting “Let me out NOW!”

    But seriously, how will the FLDS react if this “imminent destruction” doesn’t happen?

    Oh wait, I know. Slippery ol’ Warren will just tell them, “It was just a test.”

  388. The Judge was thinking that he’s the former law partner of Rodney Parker.

  389. If the UEP ruling isn’t appealled and overturned, then the trust belongs to Elissa Walls and the lost boys because their lawsuits were never answered. If the reformation was unconstitutional then the settlements with them are also unconstitutional and they are the owners.

  390. Get out. The judge was the former partner of Parker? How is that possible? Isn’t that a conflict of interest that would disqualify the judge from making that decision?

  391. Not joking Betty, Parker and the FLDS hand picked the judge they wanted to hear this case.

  392. Isn’t that a reason to throw out the decision? Will action on the UEP wait while the appeal is heard?

    Do you think that Jeffs threw out the former President because he knew this was coming and wanted to control the funds without any interference?

  393. I wonder if any of the news reports will highlight that link between the judge and parker?

    I was totally bummed until I also thought about the Lost Boys and Elissa Walls suits..

    wrt to Wisan I am still totally bummed for him and all those who worked with him in good faith…

  394. Any judge hearing the case of an ex partner should have recused himself.

  395. Well common sense would tell you that, but I’ve never claimed people in Utah have much common sense.

  396. file an ethics complaint

  397. Also found this commentary on line regarding the recent developments :

    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-flds-folo-help-meeting,0,310577.story

  398. Anybody have more info on the names of the latest purge?
    My family, still in, are not answering phones.

  399. Not sure LTG, I know there have been several FOI requests made to the jail, but haven’t gotten anything from them yet.

  400. Here’s a story about the underage smuggling and marriages that actually tells the story.

    http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/Bountiful+dads+smuggled+daughters+into+marry+accused+pedophile/4343410/story.html

  401. Anonymous flds member–Warren is in jail and will most likely be there for a long–long time, maybe for life.

    Isn’t most of what Warren speaks of–“gloomy?”

    What would be best for you and your family?

  402. Proud, the link you provided is not linking to an article.

  403. Wanda Barzee has been denied parole by the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole and will not have another hearing until 2018.

    The decision Wednesday was expected. Barzee, who struck a plea deal for both her federal and state court cases, is currently serving time in federal prison in Texas for kidnapping then-14-year-old Elizabeth Smart in 2002 and illegally taking her across state lines.

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=14489883

  404. Here is an interview Mike Watkiss conducted with Isaac Wyler recently on the topic of the recent expulsions

    http://www.azfamily.com/news/watkiss/RAW-Mike-Watkiss-interviews-former-FLDS-member-Isaac-Wyler-116862843.html

  405. It appears to have been pulled.

  406. Yep…I noticed that too ProudTexan…hmmm…wonder why???

  407. BnB go back to the ‘MontrealGazette’ and click on the newspapers icon or ‘News’ button, right hand column lists two articles.

  408. Isaac Wyler told Mike Watkiss that Willie, Wendell, Merril and Bill Shapley are all out, along with Wallace and Leslie Jeffs, Warren’s brothers. David Zitting, Stephen Harker has been rumored. Tom Holms has also been rumored.

    He said that Leslie Jeffs was told to take his daughter with him. Will be interesting to see how this progresses.

  409. Try this link:

    http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Bountiful+dads+smuggled+daughters+into+marry+accused+pedophile/4343527/story.html

  410. BinB–great interview..thanks…

  411. Proud, you most recent link to Daphne Bramham’s article is working, thanks !

  412. It would be interesting to get hold of that list Wyler has compiled. Wonder if any of Merril’s sons have been exed.

  413. My heart breaks for these people. Imagine devoting your life and obeying all you are asked to do for years and then just getting the boot. Imagine being taught to take whatever is dished out to you without question, denying your own feelings, and with a sweet attitude….and to be rewarded by being told to beat it. Could it be this is only a ploy to get the evil outsiders to donate and replenish the storehouse? And maybe a way to protect those men and get them out of Dodge? Just wondering.

  414. Golly Gee–is there going to be any left when the weenie gets through?

    I think what made me most sad in the interview is the fact you are to walk away from your family and just act like they don’t exist…have no feelings for your own children. I just don’t get it???? That seems like an impossible command.

    And then…end up marrying the little girl you raised???

  415. As a word nut, I can hardly come up with enough descriptive words… despicable, contemptible, mean, wretched, abject, sordid, ugly, vile.

  416. E.Texas…it’s hard to find the right words,at least–those that you can print on here without getting banned!!!

    What a sick, sick man. hmmm..not sure you can even call him a man.

  417. I’ve been told that Marvin Cooke married Roberta Mackert and then married her daughter, his step-daughter.

  418. Can’t name them but there have been many others, PT.

  419. I remembered that one because I just watched some video about Caroline Cooke escaping. David Zitting’s brother Less helped with that.

  420. I wondernif the sacred cows were kicked out with Stephen Harker.

  421. I was not aware of the men that took their own lives after being kicked out!!

  422. http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/24/texas.polygamist.jeffs/index.html?hpt=Sbin

    Wonder if Willie’s wives left with him.

  423. Love the narration!

  424. Here’s the SLTribs take on the federal judge ruling in favor of FLDS in matter of UEP.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51065655-76/trust-state-benson-church.html.csp

    Hope that this is appealed, don’t think the ruling will stand IMO.
    In any case ole Warren will take this as a great victory and will use it say to his followers he’s right, another control tactic on Jeffs part. Also returning UEP to FLDS give them complete control, including access to it’s assets to fund Warren lawyers, with possible open defiance of LE here in Texas and others states. IMO it emboldens Jeffs and increases possibility his followers might use violence against the outside world.

  425. Problem with returning it is that the FLDS never answered the lawsuits doled by Elissa, Brent and the Lost Boys. So that makes it the property of those whose lawsuits weren’t answered.

  426. I’m sure Warren is emboldened by his victory. I’ll bet since he has direct access to God that when he talks to his followers he capitalizes on world events like the recent New Zealand earthquake, the Egyptian revolution. You name it. He’ll take credit for his appeals to God to bring about the destructions of the wicked and of course deliver him from prison. Zion cometh!

  427. Ultimately the question of religious takeover of the management of the trust doesn’t matter.

    The ultimate question is what are you going to do with the assets in relation to the beneficiaries.

    Sounds like the federal judge is going to liquidate the trust and distribute the assets to the beneficiaries which is sort of what Lindberg/Wisan have been trying to do all along.

    You never know maybe Benson can do a better job of handling this than Lindberg. Absent some stay by the appellate court Benson will be free to proceed with whatever his plan may be.

  428. RinH, I thought that Warren had recorded a fallback that if the UEP Trust failed that he became sole owner? I think there is a scenario that Warren Jeffs may be awarded final ownership of the UEP Trust and the ‘Lost Boy’ and Elissa Wall settlements would be sustained as awarded. Elissa Walls present claim against the FLDS Church and Warren Jeffs would be a major hurdle to yet be adjudicated. Liquidating the UEP Trust to the historical beneficiaries is an interesting potential outcome but which beneficiaries would be used? Also, the whole issue that Warren S. Jeffs, while President of the UEP board, acted without authorization and sold and/or removed funds that he didn’t rightfully have a formal right to enact. Bruce Wisan has recoded what missing funds and liquidated assets were gone but Texas Attorney General office hasn’t yet shared with him the supposed UEP Trust records that they control/possess. It will be very interesting to see which ‘specific findings’ that Judge Benson makes to rule on this matter.

  429. Good point, RIH, but how is he going to define beneficiary without wading into the same swamp as the previous attempt? And what is he going to do about the suits that stand against the trust?

  430. Yes, Betty. My thoughts exactly!

  431. Did Merril Jessop really get the boot? If so, did Betty go with him?

  432. Cannot believe that fellow Bill Shapely who totally stood up for his prophet has also been kicked out.

  433. Is Mayor David Zitting David Kilgrow Zitting son of Charles Zitting and Bonnie Kilgrow? Who are his wives?

  434. As more men get shuffled out of town, not only are the families left without a provider, but who runs their businesses now? Who is left? The town isn’t that big. It’s turning into a town of women and children. 45 is a lot of absent people! Is Warren’s aim to take over allll the wives and be the one ‘daddy’ to his entire flock?
    Even after all this time, it still amazes me that people stand for this carp! I’ve tried to understand the mindset, and sometimes I think I do, on a cerrtain level. Then my self preservstion kicks in and I remember my Mom taught me to rely on me and not suffer fools lightly.

  435. I’m with you, I wouldn’t stand for it at all.

  436. I agree mc1199…kinda hard to imagine??? These are grown men for heavens sake!! However..I then remember–grown men that have never made decisions for themselves, and have only done what the weenie wanted them to do!!!

    Yes..seems insane!!! and it is!!!

  437. Well, on one level Warren Jeffs applying all of this pressure on Twin City Warrenites is ultimately doomed to failure. There are far too many apostates, non-profits, government agencies to help any fall-away FLDS members around Short Creek. The ‘Land of Refuge’ folks at Pony Springs, Mancos, Pringle & Eldorado have to be feeling fairly trapped by this latest escalation. Warren seems bent on both scattering the faithful and shattering the remainder. He can’t control pending events in Bountiful, BC and will likely shutter that community with a bad reference case ruling. Judge Benson formal order after his favorable FLDS ruling will control future Short Creek events, also, beyond Warren’s ability to control.

  438. All of these men have stood by and watched Warren and his madness for years and have done nothing. Kicking out men and boys–disrupting families….given their young daughters to old men, refused some of medical treatment; the list is endless. So, sorry–I just don’t feel sorry for any of them.

    It’s not a question of who got kicked out..it’s who is left???

  439. My uneducated guess is…the one’s who are left are so far below the radar that they pose no ‘danger’ to W. I’m sure they are bowing and scraping to keep in good graces, doing alll they can not to upset the current balance. Fear is a very powerful thing!

  440. My guess is that they are giving every cent to fund his attorneys and pre-paid phone cards.

  441. Unless they are different from other County Jails, only so much per week can be on the account, so my guess is it’s all going to his new high priced attorney.

  442. Just this afternoon – filed in British Columbia – an affidavit of Leah Greathead, JD, for the Attorney General of British Columbia further documenting the trafficking in teenage brides by the FLDS between Canada and the United States

  443. For whomever asked about David Zitting, yes he is David Kilgrow Zitting, son of Charles Frederick Zitting and Bonnie Elaine Kilgrow. His wives are Jeannie Adair, Eliza Jean Harker, Eyvonne Beagley and Mildred Edna Eads.

  444. Application of the Attorney General of British Columbia to introduce into evidence the birth certificates of teenage FLDS girls trafficked between the US and Canada

  445. Anon 5:25, Thanks for the Zitting info. Distant relatives.

  446. Hey Anon @ 5:25, could you post your email in the slot for email. I’d like to get in touch with you to see if you could help me out with something.

    The admins here know how to get in touch with me and if it’s OK with you and you post it, they could pass it on to me.

  447. Also, anon @ 5:46 too please.

  448. Since these FLDS Boyz are breeders and the filed affidavits today in BC, Canada nominate nine (9) under 18 years of age girls shipped South in their sex traffic trade, that strongly suggests that nine (9) girls would have been sent North into Canada or return with ex-Bishop Jim Oler for a probable eighteen (18) total ‘Mail Order Brides’ sex trafficked across International Border and denied their rights as US/Canada citizens. W

    When the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) go searching for these parents I suggest they question the newest/youngest sister wife on her country of origin and age.

  449. I hope that the RCMP will do something to address this issue. We certainly cannot count on Utah or Arizona.

  450. BiB, I’m not even sure that Utah and Arizona will acknowledge that there is a problem.

  451. And people complain about Utah and Arizona being too lenient on Jeffs. Ha. At least they weren’t stupid enough to give the jackass his own phone. The blood is on the hands of Texas. We are witnessing the death of common sense.

    The government isn’t trying to kill polygamy, Warren is. He is actually doing a pretty good job of it, if I must say so myself. These groups were thriving in obscurity until WSJ reared his dorky head. He has completely reversed everything that they have built. The hard-line anti-polygamy crowd should be kissing the ground he walks on; for he has done more damage to Mormon Fundamentalism in the last 10 years than any of them could ever accomplish in their entire lifetimes combined.

  452. Let me guess CPark Shark, you are from Centennial Park.

    As for letting Jeffs have a phone in jail, you can blame a federal judge for that. Prisoners also have to have access to television and all sorts of other crap. I agree with you though, if Warren keeps it up, he’ll all but eliminate his group. You’ll have 1 husband left, him, and tons of wives and kids. He’ll be in jail and no one will be left to support them.

  453. The state of Texas is not responsible for providing Warren Jeffs with a phone, or TV for that matter.

  454. I don’t think Warren Jeffs is alone in terms of inflicting damage on Mormon fundamentalism. Jim Harmston, the incestuous Kingston clan, the Shreve group and the AUB Virginia Hill scandals have all contributed.

  455. I second that, BiB. After the murder spree of the LeBarons, it’s sort of hard to find more of a bottom than that, but the Lafferty brothers managed to do it by killing an innocent woman and child. The big difference to me is that Warren got a lot of press because of the raid.

  456. ah, yes, I neglected to mention the Lafferty brothers and the LeBarons. My bad.

  457. They really do BiB, there was some lawsuit about jails and the inmates have certain rights. One is access to a phone and another is access to a tv.

  458. CPark Shark is there a Phone Fund to insure Warren has ample phone cards, I’d like to make a donation?

  459. Warren, phone: give him enough rope …

  460. http://www.Canada.com is reporting this morning that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are opening investigations into eight illegal marriages and sex trafficking of minor Bountiful, BC girls. Warren S. Jeffs was quoted in materials supplied to the RCMP, “According to the laws of the land, guided and controlled by the devil himself, you girls married (he had just married a 13 year old Canadian and a 14 year old American ‘Child Bride(s)’) to me make me a criminal”. Interesting to read that Warren Jeffs considers legal statutes as satanic EVIL and he teaches followers to therefore ignore the rule of law. The number of celestial marriages Warren performed and wedlock to himself is over a half-dozen, while he was a Federal fugitive.

  461. More than half a dozen CAJim.

  462. http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Mormon+prophet+diaries+reveal+depraved+face+polygamy/4352578/story.html

    Great article by Daphne Bramham

  463. S. Yes, I think that is a major reason the LDS leaders try to stay politically neutral. Every year in the fall before an election the Church leaders send out a letter to be read in church meetings. That letter encourages people to vote, but states that the church and it’s leaders do not endorse candidates, that church property, mailing lists, etc are not to be used for political purposes.

    chemist said this on February 24, 2011 at 11:50 AM

    chemist, I don’t want to argue with you but I was told by Utah LDS members that they CALLED other LDS members living in California to vote against Prop 8 (gay marriage). If the LDS church did not provide the contact phone numbers of their members living in California, then how did LDS living in Utah get them?

    There were MANY Utahns making these phone calls to Californians. They couldn’t all have just been calling their friends and relatives!

  464. BinB your wish is coming true.

    RCMP renews Bountiful investigation

    The RCMP has launched a new criminal investigation into the polygamous community of Bountiful, near Creston, following disturbing new evidence that eight girls -some as young as 12 -were taken to the U.S. to marry older men.

    By Vancouver Sun February 26, 2011

    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=c108e2e8-d584-4992-8d5d-3ed4796c384c&k=88375

  465. Go Canada !!!!

  466. So, one storyline on the two twelve year old Canadian girls is that Warren Jeffs called them both to the ‘Mission for the Redemption of Zion’, that’s FLDS code for an invitation to come and reside at the YFZ Raunch. These two girls fathers, namely MacRae(Mac) and his adult son Spencer were both asked to give their 12 year old daughters to Warren Jeffs in celestial bliss, then sent their daughters to Colorado City to be illegally sex trafficked across the US border, unlawfully wed into a polygamous nuptial and then subjected to aggravated rape. That would be four felonies per daughter, which is felony accessory, 1st Degree rape, solemnization of unlawful wedlock and sex trafficking. Both girls were then taken to the YFZ Raunch where they were taken into protective custody, during the 2008 YFZ Ranch Rescue and deported back to Canada. At least these two girls were not sent back to the YFZ Raunch to be sex abused further by Warren Jeffs, I fear other children returned were doomed to be re-victimized and again sexually assaulted.

    So today, based upon what is known about Canadian 12-13 year old girls, the investigation into how many American girls have been sex trafficked to Canada in a similar fashion?

  467. Remember WJ wasn’t the only one marrying girls from Canada. According to Carolyn Jessop’s book, Merril married a couple of underage girls from there. Speaking of Merril, does anyone know when he is to be tried?

  468. So where are Merril and Wendall now? Did they walk away from their businesses? are they shacking up in some studio apartment together in Vegas? Some up and coming reporter needs to get to the bottom of this. I am interested in hearing their take on matters. How has Willie Jessop been able to keep his big mouth shut through all of this? Strange.

    Well it looks like the 1 man rule has proven to be an epic failure after only 25 years. They monster that they insisted on creating now devours them. How funny would it be if Merril has to crawl back to Carolyn for help?

  469. E. Texas made a comment a couple of days ago RE the Utah Dept of Commerce filing Warren made to “retake” the FLDS church.

    I agree with her observation that Warren checked NO for #2 – do you want to change the registered agent.

    Boyd Knudson is still shown as the registered agent.

    He also checked NO for #5 – do you want to remove individuals from the business entity?

    At some point, Wendell Nielsen would have to have been removed from the business entity registration as President; otherwise he’s still president of the corporation. I’ll have to research this and see if and when that happened. I don’t think Wendell was ever listed as Corporate Sole, just president.

    Warren registered himself as both.

    What Warren filed with the State of Utah is a computer-generated registration. Someone had to make these changes online and then print out the application and deliver it to Warren in jail for him to sign.

    Does the jail in Big Lake keep logs of Warren’s visitors? This document is signed and dated 2-10-2011.

    Anyone in Texas want to check out who visited Warren on Feb 10th?

  470. Anon at 11:54: Unfortunately I cannot provide any information on UT LDS calling CA LDS regarding proposition 8. I have access to the menbership information for all of the LDS in the stake I live in. There is no way for me to get access to membership information for LDS who live in other stakes.

  471. Read how much effort Warren went to to cover his tracks smuggling his Canadian child brides into the US.

    12-year-old girls delivered for marriage

    Parents transported girls from Bountiful, smuggled them into U.S. to wed prophet Warren Jeffs

    By Daphne Bramham, Vancouver Sun February 25, 2011

    Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/life/year+girls+delivered+marriage/4344886/story.html#ixzz1F61iXFfC

  472. Warren Jeffs has damaged way more lives than Ervil LeBaron, it’s just that they’re not all dead.

  473. A tad off topic but… I turned the TV on [a bit ago] and looked for something to watch and there wwere 2 movies about polygamy and a program called Cults: Dangerous Devotion. That one started off with the FLDS, Jeffs and child brides/rape. An interesting TV lineup!

  474. CPark Shark said “So where are Merril and Wendall now?”

    Heard they are both in Short Creek. Merril is under a doctor’s care. Don’t think he’d ever seek Carolyn’s help and he’d probably rather die than go to trial in Texas.

    Also heard exed Willie is there too and “on the warpath.” Keeping his mouth shut? Maybe he’s quietly fomenting an uprising. That would be interesting.

    Agree 100 percent with Anonymous 3:10.

  475. CAJim, the 2 12 year old Canadian girls weren’t at the YFZ during the raid. They are still somewhere in the US illegally and still underage. Neither of them has turned 18 yet. The older of the 2 will turn 18 in August of this year and the other after that. There was only 1 Canadian girl in the raid. She was returned to her parents. She was 17 at the time. She’s an adult now and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find out that she’s illegally crossed the border again. She could be back at the ranch.

  476. mc1199: I saw the show on cults on the History channel. It was good to see the flds and Jim Jones group featured as mind control cults.

  477. Anon @ 1:59, I’m not sure you can see who visited a particular prisoner. Guess that’s another Freedom of Information request that needs to be filed.

  478. I am a flds member and wish the states of utah, arizona, texas and also the federal government would not worry about the legal liabilities and put warren into 100% isolation(except maybe for short lawyer visits).
    His ongoing “revelations” are turning us into slaves. Please stop him.

  479. Anon 5:44… A question, or 2, if you don’t mind. I take it you aren’t a fervent follower of WJ. What changes would you like to see if he never returned? Would things change radically [for better or worse] under a different ‘prophet’? OK, 3 questions… Who would you like to see take over?

  480. From Daphne Bramham, Opinion – Vancouver Sun 2/26/2011-
    The “Prophet’s” diaries reveal the depraved face of polygamy

    http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Opinion+Mormon+prophet+diaries+reveal+depraved+face+polygamy/4350891/story.html

  481. Anon @ 5:44, the problem with putting him in isolation is that it could backfire and get him released saying his rights were violated. Even Sheriff Joe in Arizona found out that he had to grant the prisoners TV time.

    I feel your pain and hope that you can make it, although if you don’t believe that Warren is the prophet, have you ever thought of quitting the group? Don’t make a big thing about it, just quit tithing and attending meetings. See if anyone notices.

  482. PT, when Warren was in jail in Kingman, Arizona people were able to find out who visited him. I was just thinking that since the facility at Big Lake is a jail and not a prison, maybe Texas would provide that info too.

  483. Speaking of voting “In Colorado City, there were 1,252 Republicans and 760 Independents but only 48 registered Democrats out of 2,072 registered voters.”

    County has 118,251 registered voters

    By JIM SECKLER/The Daily News
    Published: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 11:27 PM MST

    http://www.mohavedailynews.com/articles/2011/02/24/news/local/doc4d65f92a41e03603040633.txt

  484. Does the jail in Big Lake keep logs of Warren’s visitors? This document is signed and dated 2-10-2011.

    Anyone in Texas want to check out who visited Warren on Feb 10th?

    Anonymous said this on February 26, 2011 at 1:59 PM

    Texas inmates visitors cannot be released by law.

  485. Check out the obvious parallels.

    http://dotsub.com/media/b5ee5ada-5b37-4b0b-9916-e0896337ec4b/e/m

  486. Texas AG Opinion
    In Open Records Decision Nos. 428 and 430, our office determined that inmate visitor and mail logs which identify inmates and those who choose to visit or correspond with inmates are protected by constitutional privacy because people who correspond with inmates have a First Amendment right to do so that would be threatened if their names were released. ORD 430 (list of inmate visitors protected by constitutional privacy of both inmate and visitors). The rights of those individuals to anonymity was found to outweigh the public’s interest in this information.

  487. Man, for once in my life I side with Scalia…no right to privacy.

  488. Thanks for posting that txgal. I know when someone tried to get the list of people who had visited Raymond in the Tom Green County Jail they were told it was not public information, but I had never been told why.

  489. txgal, did they determine anything about phone calls inmates make?

  490. Geesh, incarcerated folks in Texas have more rights and privileges than free folks.

  491. That’s true.

  492. The Judge who placed Texas prisons on oversight was Judge William Wayne Justice. He’s also the one who desegregated public schools in Texas.

  493. Here are the rules for TDCJ phone use:

    On this site you will find information on how to register to receive calls from an offender located at a Texas Department of Criminal Justice (TDCJ) facility.

    Texas Department of Criminal Justice has contracted with Embarq Payphone Services, Inc. (EPSI) to provide calling services to the offenders at the facilities of the TDCJ. Our recipients are friends, relatives, and attorneys who receive calls from the offenders.

    The Offender Telephone System (OTS) allows eligible offenders to make paid telephone calls to friends and family listed on the Offender’s Visitor List. Offenders with major disciplinary problems, gang affiliations, or on death row will not have access to the telephone system.

    The following rules apply to the system:

    Phones are available from 7:00 AM – 10:00 PM, unless conditions dictate a change
    Calls are limited to 15 minutes
    You will hear a warning message one minute before being disconnected
    Offenders are limited to 240 minutes per month
    All calls, except to the Attorney of Record, are subject to monitoring, recording and voice recognition to complete call
    Calls may only be made to home landline telephone numbers (“Home phone”). No calls are allowed to cell phones, 800 numbers, businesses, pay phones, or international numbers
    Friends and family members listed on the Offender’s Visitor List are required to meet certain validation requirements. These requirements are listed on the Registration page.

  494. Here’s some more

    http://texasoffenderfriendsandfamily.com/faqs.asp

  495. hmmm..so, sounds like he is making calls to a land phone? At the ranch–ya reckon???

  496. I think he’s calling the meeting house at the Crick.

  497. Ohhh..true…I do remember someone posted on here that his calls were piped in to the meeting place…

    so..if calls only last 15 minutes..he must be making lots of 15 minute calls (one after another) to get done all he has gotten done…

  498. If Warren is calling the LSJ meeting house, then his conversations COULD be monitored and/or recorded per what PT posted above because he’s not calling his attorney.

    And only being allowed 4 hours of phone time each MONTH, is not a lot of talk-time if you think about how Warren likes to go on and on and on. That limit averages out to only 1 hour per week! Is he using all of his monthly 240 minutes to run the FLDS and his attorney is meeting him face-to-face to save his phone time?

    When Warren gets the warning bleep one minute before his 15 minute conversation is over, does he tell his followers that he has to go into his “heavenly session” or “confer with God a minute” then he’ll call right back?

    And how does the TDCJ actually define “gang affiliation”?

  499. A followup to my comment made today at 1:59 PM – Wendell Nielsen sent the Utah Dept. of Commerce a letter of resignation on Jan 28, 2011 and it was recorded on Jan 31, 2011. That then allowed Warren to submit the application to become the new FLDS president and corporation sole on Feb 10, 2011.

    Wendell had held both of these positions – president and corporation sole – up until Jan 28th.

  500. Anon @ 11:04pm, You owe me a new keyboard. I spit coke all over it from laughing at your post.

    I’m not sure if the same rules apply to Reagan County or not. Those are the rules for the State Prisons, aka The Big House.

  501. Speaking of voting “In Colorado City, there were 1,252 Republicans and 760 Independents but only 48 registered Democrats out of 2,072 registered voters.”
    ——————–
    Yeh and you wonder how much they “donated” to certain county and state officials to get away with their crimes. In 1998 Orrin Hatch was head of Senate Justice Committee and said that the federal government “would be nuts” to investigate crimes in polygamy. HMMM

  502. You know, if the rules are the same, then someone lied about their phone number. It specifically says that you can only call people on your visiting list. Surely Lyle wouldn’t lie on his visitor information and accidentally put the number for the meeting house instead of his own home number. Or maybe he considers the meeting house his home. It’s not anywhere close to his actual home, but you know, mistakes are made.

  503. The new affidavits filed this week in the Canadian reference case mention that the underage child-brides-to-be were brought down from Canada and then John Wayman drove them elsewhere. OOPS, it might not look so good for John Wayman as far as law enforcement goes!

    Would Warren kick out another one of his wealthiest followers? He doesn’t have too many left after booting Wendell, does he?

  504. Recorded at Lyle’s home then played over the PA system at LSJ Meeting House.

  505. Or….
    Editing bit and pieces of previous calls… they’re very talented boys, you know!

  506. Anon @11:15, I bet if he kicks Wayman out he’ll keep the magic checkbook.

    And E. Texas, it doesn’t take that much talent with the software out there today. I’m sure Lyle has a 2 year old who can do it for him.

  507. Anon at 11:12 PM – Orrin Hatch is a POS who really needs to retire from office. He is too busy fussing about the college football BCS to worry about women and children – his constituents – being abused while living in polygamy. But, yeah, he has gone on the record stating that he knows a lot of polygamists and what nice people they are. I can only hope that the state of Utah votes his butt out of office next election!

  508. For all we know maybe Wayman’s already kicked out. Men have been kicked out for lesser issues. If the law goes after Waymen that’s one more huge legal bill to fund.

  509. My 2 cents on why Willie the Thug got exed is that he was facing RICO investigations (per his deposition in the Teresa Jeffs case in Texas) and Warren freaked out. So Willie got the old AMF from Warren once Warren got cell phone privileges.

  510. E.Texas–that makes sense. So, calling Lyle at yfzippers and Lyle records it and calls meeting house and it’s played over PA. Great thinking!!! Boy–the boys are talented.

    But, I still say the weenie has gone stark raving mad.

  511. I want to clarify my post made @ 11:23 PM

    Orrin Hatch went on the record April 17, 2003 stating that “I know people in Hildale who are polygamists who are very fine people. You come and show me evidence of children being abused there and I’ll get involved. Bring the evidence to me.”

    So, Orrin, WTF have you been for the past 7 years?

  512. It took some planning to put all this phone stuff together and get it piped in at the meeting house.

  513. jobo, I think Lyle is still living in Short Creek, not at the YFZ ranch.

    But, I do agree with you that Warren has totally gone off his rocker! What an evil, nasty, cruel beast he is. He is NOT a man of God, he is a monster!

  514. If you’ve ever heard Warren’s voice it’s monotone, deliberate, almost hypnotic. Not hard to splice.

    Planning? That’s what power-mongers have plenty of time and henchmen for. The meeting I heard about, the people sat there for hours waiting to hear W’s voice.

    And Lyle lives at the Creek… not YFZ.

  515. I also think Lyle is commuting from the Crick for Warren’s hearings. I don’t know if he showed up at the hearing on Feb 21. They took the deposition of the doctor who took the DNA from Veda and her child. He’s leaving the country and won’t be back in time for a July 2011 trial and the DA investigator who helped has passed away.

    Warren’s new attorney got into the swing of things objecting that the DNA evidence was obtained as a result of an illegal search. Additionally, he suggested that the state pick up the tab and fly the doctor back into the country at the time of trial. His next theory was to tell the state to get new samples. That would be great, but Veda and her daughter are no where to be found.

    Last but not least, Kearney asked the Judge to allow Warren to wear a coat and tie to subsequent court proceedings. The Judge informed him that Mr. Jeffs’ attire is decided by the Sheriff of Reagan County.

    I wonder if Warren has a coat and tie that would go with those wonder orange pants and slippers that he is currently wearing.

  516. Of course Anon @11:46, they had to pray fervently so that Warren’s voice would guide them.

    I’m betting that people are dreading meeting days now.

  517. Slippers? That’s probably because they can’t find prison shoes that will fit his very long, very skinny feet. He inherited those from his dad.

  518. Anon @ 11:04pm, You owe me a new keyboard. I spit coke all over it from laughing at your post.

    I’m not sure if the same rules apply to Reagan County or not. Those are the rules for the State Prisons, aka The Big House.

    ProudTexan said this on February 26, 2011 at 11:12 PM

    Rules are less stringent in county jails. In older jails pay phones are in common areas connected to several jail cells. Newer jails can have pay phones in cells.

    Jail population also can be a factor in use and time allotment.

    County jail pay phones are monitored, calls recorded by the system.

    Obviously Mr. Jeffs has access to a pay phone and can afford to purchase phone cards if what I have read is true.

    Phone privileges would be revoked if Mr. Jeffs conversations are deemed threatening.

    Jeffs would be aware his conversations could be monitored.

    Mr. Jeffs is just another prisoner, innocent until proven guilty.

  519. Yes, slippers. They look kind of like men’s sidewalk surfer slippers.

  520. txgal, any idea how much he is allowed to have put on his account each week/month? in tom green it seems to be $50 per week, but you have to purchase all supplies needed with those funds. who knows, maybe warren’s going without brushing his teeth so he can make more phone calls.

  521. A nice recap of the last year’s FLDS criminal trials just posted on the San Angelo Standard Times.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2011/feb/26/flds-prosecutions-plea-deals-keep-courts-busy/

    But the last sentence is incorrect about Warren’s upcoming trial:

    “His trial is scheduled for Feb. 21.”

    It also says “After failing to secure counsel, Walther appointed an attorney to him.” but then didn’t clarify that he has since hired one.
    ——–

    Ok… I’m done for the night, folks… G’nite.

  522. txgal, any idea how much he is allowed to have put on his account each week/month? in tom green it seems to be $50 per week, but you have to purchase all supplies needed with those funds. who knows, maybe warren’s going without brushing his teeth so he can make more phone calls.

    Anonymous said this on February 27, 2011 at 12:13 AM

    No, but fee and time on card is determined by sheriff department.

  523. Oh, I can’t resist throwing in one more comment to Anon 12:13…

    Warren does lots of fasting and praying so he probably doesn’t need to brush his teeth all that much. 😉

  524. Hee hee E. Texas! When Warren got fed his liquid diet in Kingman jail I also doubt he needed to brush his teeth very often. A “swish and swallow” would probably do the trick after you’re force-fed Ensure through a feeding tube.

  525. txgal, you’re talking about pay phones. I thought Warren had a cell cell phone (double use of the word “cell” intended) and he bought pre-paid cell cell phone minutes through the jail commissary. Are you saying that the prisoners use public pay phones instead of cell phones? I am confused!

  526. PT as far as ‘Warrants’ attorney Kearney asking to wear a suit and tie, I thought there was a decorum in the courts about how you surrendered or were captured determined your courtroom garb. ‘Warrant’ was arrested at the roadside as a Ten Most Wanted fugitive, so I thought he has to wear the jailhouse outfit to remind other like minded escapees that lacking respect for our laws has consequences.

  527. Warren is in a county jail. The Sheriff of the county he’s in sets the rules for the jail.

    I’d be surprised if any county jail allows cell phones.

  528. I don’t think it’s a cell phone like the kind everyone carries, I think it’s called a cell phone because it’s a phone in his cell. Probably attached to the wall so it can’t be thrown if the call doesn’t go the way you want it to go.

  529. No confusion. No Cell Phone.

    Pay phone. No prepaid card, no call.

    Tex. Loc. Gov’t Code Ann. § 351.0415(c) (West 2005).

    3. This rule provides as follows:
    Each facility shall have and implement a written plan, approved by the commission, governing the availability and use of inmate telephones.

    (1) Immediately after booking, but in no case later than four hours after arrival, a person shall be permitted to make at least two completed telephone calls. Toll calls should be made on a prepaid or collect basis. A free telephone shall be available for local calls for those inmates who otherwise would be unable to complete the two required calls. Facilities may have a special line reserved for inmate use.

    (2) Each facility shall provide for reasonable access, both local and long distance, between an inmate and his/her attorney, family, and friends. This may be on a prepaid or collect basis. The plan shall contain procedures for the handling of emergency calls.

  530. When is warrens next court date? It will be exciting to see who shows up for that, since lots of them have been kicked out?

    If Lyle is at the Crick..who is managing yfzippers?

  531. Hmmmm, then maybe there should be a Freedom of Information Act Request for the written plan Reagan County has for the availability and use of inmate telephones.

  532. Jobo, the only ones who showed up to the hearing where he retained Kearney were Lyle, Lyndsey Barlow and John Wayman. If the exing was done on the 30th and Lyle was there (which I’ve been told he was) then he had to have left immediately after and driven like a bat out of hades to get to San Angelo in time for the hearing. I know that Lyle and company were not able to talk to Warren while he was in the Courthouse and Monday isn’t a visiting day for the jail.

    What day was the retaking of the FLDS Corporation signed? Wednesday the 9th was a visiting day, but the only way he could have gotten anything to sign would be by an attorney. Sounds like a job for Amy Hennington.

  533. Wonder or could it be possible that some of the kicked out ones could testify against him???

  534. The Fall of Reynolds has a couple of polls up about men and women, polygamy and jail. Y’all ought to go vote. TBM

  535. PT the Utah DOC registration change form was signed by Warren and the date on the form is 2-10-2011 – Thursday. It was received by the UT DOC on Tuesday, Feb 15th.

  536. Thinking about it, it would have to have been an attorney who took the document to him. Normal visitors don’t have face to face contact.

  537. Agreed, PT.

    One thing I like about this site is that I can talk about the structure and logic of arguments and people actually know what I’m saying, or even hear me for that matter. Reading the commentary on news all over the internet and I am amazed at how many seemingly intelligent and educated people have no sense of logical argument whatsoever.

  538. Kinda makes ya wonder if the other men that have already been sent to prison get a monthly allowance for extras, or has Warren put a stop to that too???

  539. Hi TBM, I have already voted. With regard to the FOIA requests on who is visiting Warren Jeffs in jail, when were these FOIA requests filed ? The government only has a limited period of time to respond to the request.

  540. tbm is your blog still active,
    if so can I get an invite?

  541. I am shocked that the courts would turn over control of the UEP funds to an international crime syndicate lead by international sex criminal Warren Jeffs. He also discussed with Oler how to get goods into the U.S. without paying U.S. Customs. Money laundering came out loud and clear in the Texas investigation. RICO Act violations. Are there just too many Mos in the FBI? Or are payoffs or “political donations” being made on both sides of the border. Why is this crime syndicate allowed to continue trafficking children for sex and slave labor? Why do the RCMP and U.S. Courts and law enforcement even listen to them when they have lied again and again and again. Claiming since 2001 and the Ruth Stubbs trial tht they did not engage in underaged marriages. Rod Parker was their paid liar at that time. Even more disgusting is that the mothers, fathers, and sister wives assist in the rape of children…this is not a religion. As I have always said “Abuse is a crime not a religion.”

    It makes me ill that U.S. law enforcement and the RCMP have been co-conspirators in allowing crimes against children for years and years.

  542. Blackbird i agree with a lot of your views but the Royal Mounties seem to have just gotten onto this case and I fully expect that they will completely engage this investigation to wherever it may lead. I, also, think that the State of Idaho and Border County have been lax in enforcing the law when it comes to the greater Bonner Ferry area or Port Hill. If this latest information doesn’t get Idaho involved, then your concerns on lax law enforcement will be more prominent.

    The scheduled and televised close to the BC polygamy reference case on 27 March certainly looms as a greater blockbuster of evidence than before. I fear the laxness is more on the US side of the border than Canadas. Utah’s AG Shurtleff has more to investigate since these marriages occurred in his state and while he was AG.

  543. TBM nice to read your post but even Fall of Reynolds can read the handwriting on his own blog. Reynolds vs. US has withstood over 100 years as an accepted Supreme Court limitation p[laced upon our Constitutional ‘Freedom of Religion’ and it’s validity is born out and not challenged by the recent FLDS Church’s activities. May be somebody needs to update how well Hugh McBryde’s lobbying to legalize polygamy in Vermont is coming along. Last I heard he was as successful as the attempt to overturn the Reynolds verdict. Interesting footnote on George Reynolds was that he served in prison for five years for being illegally wed to two wives and married his third wife after he lost this case, that Brigham Young had talked him into filing. Reynolds rose in favor with the Mormon Church after his trial and conviction and was placed in a leadership role in the Council of Seventy.

  544. @PT: Who is Amy Hennington?

    @jobo: I’d love to see a contingency of exes turn states evidence.

    @TBM: Nice to see you posting! I’d like an invite to your blog if you’ve opened that door.

    @Betty: I “hear” what you’re saying about intelligence and people’s “sense of logical argument.” You (and others here) are good at it and it’s certainly valued.

  545. Amy Hennington is a San Angelo attorney who helps out whomever is the current counsel for the FLDS.

  546. @CAJim, haven’t you figured out yet that Shirtless turns a blind eye to polygamy and its crimes. He’s known about this stuff for years and never done anything to stop it.

  547. CAJim – The Royal Mounties have had evidence for years of Winston Blackmore’s underaged marriages, girls taken to Canada and slave labor in the pole and post factory. In fact I have a report by the Royal Mounties FROM 2001. In which, a 16 year old girl from the US was taken to Canada, this is who they interviewed Winston Blackmore himself whom they simply referred to as THE BISHOP of BOUNTIFUL as if they were some of his followers, the girl’s father who approved her being taken to Canada, and then declared that no wrong was done. Perhaps you should check with Fabian Dawson reporter in Canada and Daphne Brahman to determine when these crimes were reported to the RCMP. In 1993, Winston Blackmore was found to have impregnated 3 teenagers from the U.S. but was let off. In 2000/2001 the RCMP knew of a 13 year old girl from the U.S. taken to Canada and married to a 28 year old nephew of Winston’s nothing was done. The RCMP in Creston were in bed with the FLDS and Winston Blackmore’s group for years in my opinion. Winston himself has openly admitted to having sex with 9 girls 16 and under when he was their religious leader. If they always get their man how have these crimes continued for years with no arrests.

  548. Jay Beswick sent a report to the U.S. Immigration authorities back in 2000 with names of girls brought to America illegal for polygamy. I believe there were two Oler twins who married Rulon in that group. They did nothing. So much for Homeland Security. Reports were given to the FBI in Idaho and SLC. Steve Fillerup, (real name?) FBI agent in SLC said no crimes were committed in taking underaged girls to Canada for illegal polygamous marriages. Guess he had never read the Mann Act. In fact, the only time the FBI enforced the Mann Act in relation to polygamous girls was when the AUB asked them to go after a man that had run off with one of their girls. They put him on trial but then the polygamists said they didn’t want him to go to jail. See the girl wasn’t assigned to him and they just wanted to teach him a lesson. Odd though that the FBI can uphold the Mann Act but only when the polygamists want it done, not to protect girls being raped by polygamists. Side note, during the AUB million dollar fraud trial, an SLC County deputy said she instructed not to investigate crimes in polygamy and a retired Secret Service Agent admitted to using his law enforcement credentials to steal information from the mainline Mormon church on baptisms.

  549. Notice Warren kicked out his wealthy followers after he was given control back of the UEP wealth.

  550. Anonymous did you know that Orrin Hatch admitted to playing the organ in a polygamist church. He didn’t say what organ he played.

  551. Fifth District Judge G. Rand Beacham ordered him to spend 30 days in jail.

    This is the same judge that wanted to hold a “secret trial” for Rod Holms the police officer that impregnated his wife’s sister 3 times before the age of 19. He hasn’t changed much.

  552. The Canadians have been every bit as lax on upholding the laws. Ask Jay Beswick and Deb Palmer for starters.

  553. @blackbird, that’s what it looks like to me, a cynical grab for the money.

  554. Child bride allegations ‘disturbing’, says B.C. polygamist leader
    Winnipeg Free Press – ‎1 hour ago‎
    BOUNTIFUL, BC – One of two leaders within the polygamous commune of Bountiful, BC, says allegations that eight underage girls from the community, including two 12-year-olds, were married off to American men are disturbing and should be investigated. …

    Winnipeg Free Press cancelled comments on this section when writers consistently pointed out that Winston himself took teenaged brides trafficked from the U.S. They found the comments not appropriate. What they are spreading here amounts to a lie, that Winston Blackmore is shocked by trafficking of polygamous girls. He performed a marriage between a 13 year old U.S. girl and his 28 year old nephew. Now he is “disturbed”.

  555. I am very pleased to see TBM back again. For those of us who looked forward to, and enjoyed your commentary/blog, you have been been missed!

    As for the ‘disturbing’ news from Bountiful….isn’t always amusing, that when pepople get caught, they profess shock and dismay that these terrible deeds have been going on around them….and they never knew!!!

  556. Winston brought underaged Shalina Palmer to Sandy when she was 15 and married her. I’m sure he’s “shocked” at the allegations. What he’s shocked about is that they are coming back to bite him in the butt.

    @blackbird is Winston still married to Harmony Quinton?

  557. In my opinion–Winston Blackmore is as bad or worse than the weenie. UGH!! I really get sick when I see pictures of him!!!!

  558. Here is the article which blackbird was referring to – and all the comments have been deleted, as blackbird has informed us –

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/faith/child-bride-allegations-disturbing-says-bc-polygamist-leader-117013848.html

  559. When the men get kicked out, does that also mean they have to forfeit their business?

  560. Shalina is the one who married Lorraine Johnson in a civil ceremony to keep Lorraine from being deported. When told about it in an interview Winston denied it. After that remark, I realized that he’s a bigger idiot that I thought he was.

  561. BiB, the only reason Winston is “shocked” is because they aren’t coming after him, they have targeted his brother and nephew, Brandon and Spencer Blackmore.

  562. I’ve been thinking about this reassignment business and I’ll bet men are on their knees praying they don’t get stuck with Krazy Kathleen from Merril’s household or Looney Maggie from Wendell’s. Maybe Maggie should be assigned to Mudpuppy since he thinks so highly of her.

  563. PT don’t forget MacRae (Mac) Blackmore he’s Winston older brother and Spencer’s father, he sent his 12 year old daughter, as well.

    Blackbird I don’t doubt your take on past events but time will tell if things have changed. Winston Blackmore, after triggering the polygamy reference case in BC, pulled his affidavit and boycotted his long pleaded for review of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. He is soon to see his chickens come home to roost. The harms testified to during the witness phase of this reference case makes Chief Justice R. Bauman’s findings self-evident.

  564. That’s right CAJim, It was Mack and Spencer who gave away the 12 year olds, Brandon’s daughter was older. She was 13.

  565. Oh, I don’t know, Proud Texan. Maggie may be crazy like the proverbial fox. I’m sort of hoping that now with both her daddy and assigned hubby exed, she might write her own version of “Prophet Dearest”. I’d buy a copy.

  566. Maggie was supposed to be helping Betty write a book about what a horrible mother Carolyn was and how wonderful life in the FLDS was. Hmmmmmmmmm, still waiting for that book.

    Wendell is Maggie’s 2nd husband to be exed. She was first married to Leroy Steed Jeffs, Warren’s brother. Maybe if Leroy has been let back in she can go back to him. Sally too.

  567. Yeah, I knew about Maggie’s husband history. I think it was Wyler in one of the interviews that said some of the men that were handled 5 or 6 years ago were now be accepted back into the fold, but thus far had not been allowed to reclaim their families.

    Seriously, I am very saddened for the children who keep being torn from households.

  568. Hey PT,

    LeRoy was let back in.

  569. why was he “let back in”?

  570. Well, I think there’s a big difference in the levels of evil of “marrying” a 15 year old and “marrying” a 12 year old. Also the callousness of “marrying” more than one in the same ceremony! Talk about devaluing the girls in their own minds – even their marriage ceremony is not unique. But, don’t get me wrong, both are evil and both are illegal in most places.

  571. But what if they are brought up to believe it is all an honor and “the way we do things” in this religious culture? Remember the young girls interviewed at the YFZ ranchz who said it was “an honor”? Hard for us who are liberated women to imagine, but it has been their “way.”

  572. Women in India considered it “an honor” to throw themselves on their husband’s funeral pyre. It doesn’t make it right if they believe differently.

  573. yes, you have a good point. It just is not a simple matter, at least in my thinking.

  574. There is more here than the ongoing covert polygamy practices. This is a Holy War called by the Prophet Warren S. Jeffs to intentionally marry under-aged girls, not just at the previous marital minimum age, but to marry younger wives that ignores both the aggravated sexual assault and any age-of-consent statutes. Then sex trafficking and parental co-conspirating felonies have been enacted without any legal enforcement/indictments. Warren Jeffs himself has referred to these marriages as being to ‘under-aged brides’ and his actions are ‘criminal’, so the activites were taken with prior knowledge and complicity to ignore the laws and defy the ‘Gentile’ legal system.

    Which FLDS Church member has not condoned these activities or been apostacised for speaking out against these consistent actions to deny, stonewall and feign unwarranted trespasses or claiming their innocence?

  575. Published objective medical literature indicates that there is a higher risk associated with teenage birth than there is for a fully developed woman > 20 yrs of age. Children born to women > 20 yrs of age have better outcomes than children born to women < age 20. Women cease growth orthopedically at approximately age 21, and neurological development continues in both women and men till age 25. What's the rush to give birth during a girl's teenage years all about ? It is not in the best interests of either the mother or the child to do so.

  576. In the mind of the prophet there is certainly a dishonest and evil mindset. How anyone can miss that – I do not know. But I wonder how many of his followers have realized the truth of his methods in the past. Keeping them isolated and piping in endless sermons and teachings to control their very thinking may have effectively kept them ignorant of many things. If I ever doubted that he was a cult leader, I do not any longer. Surely the sharper minds in the group are making plans to see major changes.

  577. Mike Watkiss is reporting the following on his Facebook page from last week :
    ‎…a federal judge in Utah today handed the FLDS Church a huge victory in the on-going and bitter dispute over control of the land in Colorado City and Hildale…but Arizona Attorney General Tom Horn told me this afternoon he and the AG in Utah will appeal Judge Dee Benson’s ruling to the Tenth Circuit…

  578. Older Anon – The FLDS organization as it is currently run meets established criteria for cult status, as per Dr Michael Langone. Here are his common clinical findings in cultic groups –

    . The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

    · Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

    · Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, long prayer sessions, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

    · The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

    · The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

    · The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

    · The leader is not accountable to any authorities.

    · The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

    · The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

    · Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

    · The group is preoccupied with acquiring money.

    · Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

    · Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

    · The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

  579. S:)
    That describes the FLDS to the max !

  580. Has anyone else noticed that anyone who has dealings with Medvecky seems to be being exed? Leslie Jeffs is he latest.

  581. Does anyone know if Richter got axed?

  582. Which Richter?

  583. This is driving me nuts:

    Are Shirley & Leann Beagley (wives of Tom Green) the daughters of Jesse Beagley (1907-1990) son of John William Beagley and Elizabeth Esther Pierce, or Jesse Lynn Beagley (1925-1988) son of Jesse Beagley and Althea Orvella Ferrell?

    And which of Warren Marshall Johnsons wives was Leann & Shirley’s mother (June Johnson) from?

  584. Is it Donald Richter who is behind the pro flds site: “Truth Will Prevail” site??

  585. Yes Chemist, Truth Will Prevail was written by Donald Richter, who after a prolific writing streak, disappeared in August 2010.

  586. “But what if they are brought up to believe it is all an honor and “the way we do things” in this religious culture? Remember the young girls interviewed at the YFZ ranchz who said it was “an honor”? Hard for us who are liberated women to imagine, but it has been their “way.””

    If it’s an honor at the age of 13 then surely it would still be an “honor” when they’re 18. No matter how much of an “honor” they’ve been conditioned to think it is, it’s still exploitation of a child. In America I would hope we are not willing to allow such unethical and immoral behavior. We have laws to protect children for a reason.

  587. Jesse Lynn Beagley (1925-1988)

  588. Thanks, Me Again

  589. Honestly, I don’t think all of them are all that happy about it, especially when the reality of the situation is presented to them. Young men are taught that it’s an honor to fight and die for your country at war, but even so they are all scared out of their minds and would rather be at the beach when it really gets down to getting shot at.

  590. Has Donald Richter been ousted from the flds??

  591. Have not been able to confirm but heard that Donald Richter was possibly exed.

  592. Wasn’t Donald Richter ex’ed once before? So now he is ex’ed once again?

  593. Who’s left, and how many wives does he have ?

  594. Merril has a pre-trial hearing in Texas on Thursday, 3/3. It will be interesting to see if he shows up.

  595. Anon @8:40 PM don’t hold your breath. Dr. Barlow will likely notify the Texas court that Merril has a hangnail and is MUCH to sick to travel to the hearing.

  596. Yes, my understanding is Merril is under the doctor’s care with a worsening heart condition.

  597. S, that is really encouraging that the new Arizona AG Tom Horne will get involved in protecting his constituents.

    I was afraid that he wouldn’t do as much as previous AG Goddard did to protect the civil rights and other rights of the people living in Colorado City.

    It’s good to know that he is on the bandwagon. I hope he’ll be as efficient as Goddard was.

    I guess only time will tell.

    Remembering back how Shurtleff crawled inside a hole siding with the FLDS and let Goddard carry the ball regarding the UEP still concerns me. Is Shurtfeff appealing the UEP decision to save face or because he really cares?

    At least I was never in doubt that Goddard truly cared.

    How much Tom Horne truly cares is yet to be seen.

    This should be interesting.

  598. Merril got a stent implanted in his coronary arteries about 6 months ago. A stent opens up the clogged arteries so the patient won’t infarct (have a heart attack).

    I don’t know how much worse his heart condition is today, but this medical procedure should have improved his heart condition tremendously.

    I still think he’ll have nothing more serious than a hangnail that would preclude him from attending his pre-trial hearing in Texas.

  599. Maybe the Texans should contact Merril’s St. George cardiologist and inquire about his heart condition instead of relying on an FLDS General Practitioner to determine his medical condition to travel to the pre-trial hearing.

  600. Apparently the doc in the Crick is none other than Dr. Lloyd’s brother Lehi. Goldstein has filed for a continuance based on his own conflicts. I’m betting that one of his conflicts is that he has no clue where his client is.

  601. “I don’t know how much worse his heart condition is today, but this medical procedure should have improved his heart condition tremendously.”

    Not necessarily. Some patients continue to have angina despite stent placement.

  602. Jeffs sends letter to President Obama demanding to be released…

    http://www.azfamily.com/news/Warren-Jeffs-sends-letter-to-President-demanding-to-be-released-117114663.html

  603. I’m laughing so hard I cannot catch my breath!

  604. I’m laughing so hard I cannot catch my breath!

    What’s wrong with this doodiehat, oh tooooo funny!

  605. I thought it was a violation of federal law to threaten the President, his cabinet and members of the US Congress. Warren must be going for broke.

  606. It is pretty funny Granny.

  607. What a laughable move.

    Maybe Obama will heed Warren’s demands if he can be assured that Warren voted for him, since Obama promised to take care of the people who elected him to office. LOL

    Warren has really gone nuts!

  608. Maybe he’s going for an insanity defense.

  609. Well, one thing this tells us is that Warren isn’t spending all his money on phone cards, he purchased paper, envelopes, stamps and a writing instrument.

  610. Maybe it was Medvecky who urged him to write to the “higher ups”.

  611. So, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the Secret Service paid a visit to Warren in Big Lake jail to see just who this half-wit is who’s threatening the US President, his Cabinet members and US Congressional members.

    If it is true that Warren wrote such a threatening letter, then he has just dug himself a deeper grave!

    What a moron!

    Or, what a twisted, pathetic maniac he has become.

    Wake Up FLDS followers! Your prophet is delusional and dangerous. He is NOT a man of God. He is a nut case who doesn’t deserve your love, devotion or hard-earned tithings.

  612. Anon @ 9:48 PM said “Goldstein has filed for a continuance based on his own conflicts.” Could that also mean that Goldstein hasn’t been paid for his services to date?

  613. Underaged marriage was always a part of the FLDS and other polygamist groups in the American West and in the Middle East. Beth Cooke, Linda Kunz’s mother married her step father when she was 12. She was FLDS. That is why she thought nothing of Linda marrying her step father Tom Green when she was 12. There were several 12 year old marriages mentioned by insiders in the early 2000s not to mention some 13 year old marriages and even a 9 year old girl. When Arizona did the raid in the 1950s a deputy reported that when the wives were told to come forward a liitle girl stepped forward. Nearby Dawn Short was married to Alex Joseph when she was 9 in Big Water, he was never arrested. In 1946, Cleveland vs. the U.S. involved a 14 year old mentally handicapped girl. There are several polygamist organizations that believe (1) That Mary was married at 12 so that is the proper age (2) Once a girl has her first menses, she is a woman and eligible for marriage. Good old Warren is just the tip of the iceberg. But when Rulon declared the end was coming in 2000 there was a big rush to marry the girls off. This had an effect of lowering the ages overall of girls left available for marriage. Can you imagine the horrors at R17 or the House of Hiding? Remember the little 8 year old in Merrill’s house that kept asking for her mother? Why do you think she was there? How long would it have been?

  614. S, many patients live with angina and take oral meds for it and carry little bottles of nitroglycerin for emergencies. Does this syndrome mean that they can’t ride in a car or fly in a plane to attend a court hearing?

    Normal life routines usually doesn’t stop because of angina.

    If Merril doesn’t attend Thursday’s pre-trial hearing, I still say it’s because of a hangnail and not a heart condition.

    Merril doesn’t want to go to Texas because Merril doesn’t want to eventually to go to jail. Pure and simple IMHO.

    Merril is a chicken s–t.

  615. All I know about Leann Beagley was that she begged for help in junior high school saying she was being molested by her step father Tom Green and was going to be forced to marry him. She did at 14 and then said that her claims of abuse was a lie. She left him when he went to jail and took up with one of his followers, a polygamist named Shepp who had been living in Pennsylvannia. She and her mother had babies by Green on the same day. I always thought it quite amazing that he married these women then dumped the mothers and kept the daughters.

  616. you are so right blackbird. ellen grace or grace ellen’s girls weren’t at the ranch by chance, they were being groomed to be proper celestial wives. they probably would have been married off at an age younger than merrianne.

  617. I know Leanne’s cousin and she said she felt so sorry for little Leanne.

  618. Not so amazing blackbird, he didn’t want the old broads around when he had the young ones in place.

  619. Did you ever see Precious where the mother allowed her daughter to be raped so she could keep her man? These mothers and fathers in the FLDS are just like that. Anything to make Warren happy.

  620. What scares me is what Warren said in that infamous meeting… that the Short Creek parents weren’t raising their children properly so he’s moving them to Texas “to be raised by the priesthood.”

    Who’s watching the gate?

  621. Can you imagine the file that the FBI has on Warren? If they are worth anything they know a lot more than we do. He sends a letter to Obama and his cabinet threatening them and demanding to be let out of jail. This is the same guy that said that God told him to go to an expensive restaurant and mingle among rich people and then told him to go to saloons, lounges and dancing clubs. This was in Boston, what an idiot. If he wanted saloons, lounges and dancing clubs God would have told him to go to New Orleans.

  622. http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Three+more+underage+girls+transported+marry+prophet+Warren+Jeffs/4362843/story.html

  623. ET, the game tracker camera that records all comings and goings.

  624. blackbird, I didn’t know that Leann Beagley “took up” with Shepp. He is Stan Shepp and he moved from Pennsylvania to Utah a few years ago. He hooked up with the Centennial Park group and I think that is where he is living now.

    Stan Shepp married a friend of a friend mine a couple of years ago and then they moved to CP. She was quite naive about the whole polygamy thing and why she married Stan Shepp, I’ll never know since he professed polygamy.

    I am shocked that you said Leann Beagley “took up” with him because the lady I’m familiar with thought she was the only wife he had at the time.

    Are you sure about this? Was Leann Beagley a plural wife of his?

    If what you’re saying is true, this really stresses me.

  625. Heh… I’ll bet they know the camera is there and I’d also bet they have some other hidden way into the compound.

  626. Anon- Its time for these criminals to be charged. I remember an email I got a while back from someone inside. It read “PLEASE HELP THEY ARE TRADING OUR DAUGHTERS LIKE CATTLE.” It couldn’t have been more true. I took it as far as I could but couldn’t get any help. Just blah, blah, blah from Utah, Arizona and B.C. listening to themselves talk. Probably one of the saddest messages I receive before the computer was shut off was, “PLEASE HELP IT DOESN’T FEEL LIKE AMERICA HERE.” That was from inside Colorado City.

  627. About Shepp all I know was that insiders told me that Leanne had taken up with him after Tom was jailed. I met with someone in Pennsylvannia who was involved in that case. When asked directly about his relationship with her, he refused to answer. He also said that he felt that Tom had done something wrong to a step daughter. The word I had was she left Tom for Shepp. Maybe it was a short lived relationship, maybe the person I spoke to had wrong information but he was evasive on the subject even in court.

  628. I totally agree blackbird. I’m doing everything in my power to see that those who have taken thee underage girls as wives face justice.

    According to the Eldorado Success, the document was 966 pages, a 10 page proclamation followed by 956 pages of signatures. It’s said that 14,000 signed, some as young as 8. I wonder what the penalty was if you didn’t sign.

  629. The Eldorado Success also says that Richard S. Jessop, the one who confessed to Oprah that he had 3 wives was kicked out. Wonder who is in charge of Texan Service and Supply now.

  630. The more things change the more they stay the same. This is sounding sooooo 18 … 50s earlier or later, woddever.

  631. Forget the proclamation, I want to see the 956 pages of signatures.

  632. PT what is this 966 pages document you’re referring to? Is it wacko Warren’s threat to the US President and other important government officials?

  633. Would such treats to our national leaders give reason for a search warrant to see what other threats he’s been dictating.

  634. Yep Anon @12:46. Apparently he dictated for 10 pages and then added 956 pages of signatures before he packaged the whole thing up and mailed it priority mail to his mailing list.

    Guess he’s not into conserving paper.

  635. Wonder what it costs to mail a 3 pound package. Then multiple that times all the members of Congress, Cabinet and the Prez himself.

    Wonder if Wayman took his checkbook to the post office.

  636. If this is true that Warren sent a 966 page threatening and maniacal document to the US President and numerous other US Officials, it is just WAY over the top!

    If the Secret Service and the FBI or CIA aren’t on this like stink on a June bug, then they aren’t doing their jobs.

    It’s one thing to have terrorists threatening our Government officials from foreign countries, but to have a nut case sitting in a Texas jail who is accessible to these guys, then there is no reason why this shouldn’t be investigated.

    I sure hope they are checking it out.

  637. ET wrote:Jeffs sends letter to President Obama demanding to be released…

    I read that Charles Manson’s lawyer did the same thing, recently. Wrote to the Prez and asked for a pardon…detailing his innocence!

    I’m sure they’ll both be given carefull consideration….NOT!!!!

  638. S, many patients live with angina and take oral meds for it and carry little bottles of nitroglycerin for emergencies. Does this syndrome mean that they can’t ride in a car or fly in a plane to attend a court hearing?

    Normal life routines usually doesn’t stop because of angina.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Obviously you haven’t treated many patients with angina. It CAN be extremely disruptive to someone’s daily routine, despite NTG, Calcium channel blockers and beta blockers. You don’t know and I don’t know either what exactly is going on in his particular case. An independent medical examination should be called for, if it is permitted in this case. It really is rather ridiculous to tell me how angina affects patients considering that I have practiced medicine for over two decades.

  639. Anon asked: Wonder what it costs to mail a 3 pound package.

    If you’re indigent in the Calif prison system, taxpayers foot the initial postage. IF you ever get $$$ in your prison account, then some is deducted over time. I have a US Marshal friend who has to read the piles of stuff sent to her office daily from prisoners. Sometimes as many as 10-12 packages from 1 writer alone. Another waste of taxpayer $$$.

  640. Too bad Texas Rangers can’t pay Merril a little visit and escort him to court….or at least the nearest Utah courthouse to appear via video in front of the Texas judge. He’ll delay this until he dies. But, Carolyn still wins! [If I remember RiH and TBM’s legal perspective properly.]

  641. S, pardon moi! I was NOT trying to “tell [YOU] how angina affects patients considering that [YOU] have practiced medicine for over two decades.

    I was just making my own humble and obviously (in your opinion) ignorant observation that Merril is trying to avoid going back to Texas to face the music in his upcoming pre-trial hearing scheduled for Thursday.

    But I do know that Merril had a stent 6 months ago. Were you aware of that?

    So, I won’t pretend to profess that I am a doctor because I am not; you are the doctor here. I’ll just stand by my ignorant opinion that Merril’s doctor will probably tell the Texas court that his health is too bad for him to leave Short Creek. I doubt that is it due to angina. I think it is more likely something as benign as a hangnail.

    But if the good FLDS general practitioner, Dr. Barlow, says Merril is too sick to go to Texas for his hearing, then it is up to the Texas court to believe it or not.

  642. S, I want to explain why I got my dander/defenses up on my last post.

    I guess I had an issue with your last sentence in your post at 1:16 AM

    It really is rather ridiculous to tell me how angina affects patients considering that I have practiced medicine for over two decades.

    S. said this on March 1, 2011 at 1:16 AM

    Sorry mam, but I took this as an arrogant comment. NO we aren’t all practicing physicians, but we aren’t all dumb-asses either.

  643. Sure about that? I can be an opinionate dumass at times, m’self. Just ask me.

  644. It could be a PUBLIC RELATIONS NIGHTMARE if Merrill Jessop had a cardiac event in court. This would serve no one. The usual practice in NY when such issues arise is to appoint an independent medical evaluator who is a subject matter expert. An independent cardiologist should render an opinion as to the issue of whether Merrill Jessop is able to participate in a court proceeding at this time.

  645. Anon at 11:26 PM. My local law enforcement tells me that it’s not a threat to claim that you can call down the wrath of God. It’s calling down the wrath of Mr Smith and Mr Wesson that will get you in trouble. However, I bet his group gets onto a list for potential domestic terrorism, however.

  646. I doubt President Obama ever sets his eyes on a single page of that three-pound package sent to him.

    But I do understand that WJ is being really decent about warning all the right people before all hell breaks loose.

  647. Sounds good Betty, they can add all 14,000 names to that list.

    Anon @ 2:08am, do you know if Merril is even still in the Crick? Last I heard he hadn’t been seen there since his exing.

    Wonder where Mr. Richard (I have 3 wives and I love it) Jessop went and who is running his company Texan Service and Supply.

  648. mc1199, I don’t think spending all your money on phone cards to harass the the poor people of the ranch and crick constitutes indigency. Leroy’s still learning about indigent status and how he’s not. Wonder if he has any money on his commissary account.

  649. I’m sure you’re right ET. Whoever has to read his mail probably got through the first 10 pages and had a good laugh.

  650. I understand your feelings, Anon @2:08AM. But S. does a lot of good for our cause and I don’t think she means to come off that way.

  651. BTW, my mother had nitro in her purse for over 12 years and I never noticed that there was anything wrong with her. She never changed her behavior; she kept a garden and went on long car trips. I would never have known if my dad had not told me about it some half dozen years or so after she had gotten the diagnosis. She died 15-20 years later of complications of Alzhiemer’s at the age of 90.

  652. Please continue on General Discussion #49

    Thanks – Admin

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