General Discussion #47

Continued from General Discussion #46


~ by FLDS TEXAS on January 30, 2011.

522 Responses to “General Discussion #47”

  1. Bnb my guess is the new ‘H’ building at the YFZ Raunch will be ‘Warrants’ hen house of plural wives to be sequestered and guarded. We’ll see how well Sally and Annette Jeffs take being enshrined for time, while ‘Warrant’ serves out his sentence. I gotta believe ‘Warrants’ convictions will cause trouble in Short Creek and elsewheres in FLDS fiefdom.

  2. Reminds me of The Band singing “Cripple Creek”

    A new way to think of Short Creek, eh?. 😉

  3. Sounds more like solitary confinement, to me. But, who’s to say maybe more than one of them is/are maybe…happier?…with him not in residence. I’m sure others probably revel in being THE big man’s wife. I guess it would be prestigious, if not a lonely life.

  4. “Henhouse at H Block”

    I dunno, it doesnt sound like Disneyland to me. They best keep their best keepen sweet game on.

  5. Exactly…it’s a tossup. It could be the title of a new Jail House movie or tale of those ‘enshrined’ there. Tough choice!

  6. SLtrib has an article on the Canadian trial – Cosmo is posting

  7. I wonder who will show up to be in the audience from the FLDS.

  8. Warren Jeffs in court today, wonder what antics he will pull today, he can’t fire his court appointed lawyer, should be interesting.

    Read more:

    Wonder if change of venue will come up?

  9. Cosmo is brilliant.

  10. I love Cosmo.

  11. Cosmo is a teaching college prof.

  12. I can tell, Anon. He really thinks things through. I wish we knew how to contact him.

  13. WJ has a new attorney, Jeff Kearney. Trial dates moved back again.

  14. New trial date will be July 25 with the next pretrial set for March 30.

    In court for the FLDS were Lindsey Barlow, John Wayman and Lyle Jeffs. Guess Lyle might be AWOL from Short Creek, but he’s alive and well in Texas.

  15. OOOPS

    Kody Brown isnt that welcome in Vegas either, …

  16. How many Canadians are residing at the YFZ Raunch? Are they teenage females and supposedly here on student visas? Are they attending school outside of the ranch or are any residing at the ranch illegally?

    Minimum Wage laws being observed by YFZ Ranch based businesses or are minor boys/girls being paid the $1.00 per hour wages reported to be paid in Canada, by the FLDS Church operations? Is a 10% tithing being assessed from the boys/girls paychecks?

    Have any teenage girls, known to have resided at the YFZ Ranch back during the 2008 rescue attempt, “poofed” into thin air and their whereabouts are now unknown yet no missing reports have been filed with the Sheriff’s Office by responsible parent(s)?

  17. Here’s more info on Warren Jeffs new lawyer, wonder how long it will be before Warren fires this one. The new lawyer is named Jeff Kearney. Appears he got his law degree from Baylor U.

    Baylor University for those who don’t know is the Southern Baptist equivalent of Notre Dame or BYU.

  18. Very interesting that ‘Warrant’ picks a law firm that handles both state and federal cases, is he expecting federal charges? Kearney’s own website states that they can handle the appeals and orchestrate, while at trial for the original charges, a strategy to enhance/prepare for the defense’s challenge of any negative convictions or verdict. The prophet seems to be covering all of his scenarios but I wonder what he plans to do about Judge Barbara Walthers and Asst.AG Eric Nichols?

  19. Kearney has represented several newsmakers from his Fort Worth practice. They include convicted former Dallas state Rep. Terri Hodge, who pleaded guilty last year in a corruption case, and a Texas woman who struck a homeless man in 2001 with her car, then drove home with his mangled body jammed in the windshield and left him to die in her garage.

    From the AP guy’s report.

  20. well lindsey barlow was in the courtroom today CAJim.

  21. District Court, money laundering, RICO, keep going Warren …

  22. Here we go again, my post poofed

  23. So where is the mama and the real baby of the fake baby scam?

  24. Not sure anon, but my best guess is Colorado.

  25. You know, that dictation where Warren tells Emack that he can’t tell his family that he got married makes me wonder if his family in Short Creek knew anything about it until he was arrested.

  26. I can’t believe that nobody has posted the biggest story from the Warren hearing this morning.

    Before his new attorney Jeff Kearney would file his motion to appear and step in front of the bar, he received a check from John Wayman who was sitting in the audience with Lindsey Barlow and Lyle Jeffs. The only question I have is how many zeros did John have to put to get this guy to take Warren as a client?

    But then again, this is the guy who represented the lady who ran down a homeless man and left him in her windshield all night after she drove on home.

  27. I wonder that too ProudTexan…?? How sad to keep such secrets from your wife/wives/children…just pure evil….

  28. Here’s what the SLTrib had to say about Warrens hearing today.

  29. Didn’t the trib have a long silence on the trials in Texas? Wonder why it has been broken now.

  30. The reporter from Marfa told me today that Brooke is on leave finishing up her masters but he thought they would send someone down to cover Warren’s trial if and when it finally got going.

  31. I guess when there wasn’t anything to say about the Texas trials the SLTrib didn’t say it.

    Lying Willie wasn’t pulling Brooke’s strings.

  32. yodelayheehoo …

  33. Betty one aspect to the SLTrib coverage is the simple fact that the FLDS Church has moved it’s operations from Short Creek to now Eldorado, Texas. Local coverage in Texas seems lacking to cover the FLDS Church outside of Schleirer and Tom Green County(s). Last weeks FLDS plural wives witnesses in Canada revealed many activities that are likely to be in practice in Texas, but no San Angelo or Eldorado press coverage of these testimonies.

    I am more interested to see what transpires with the UEP Trust and the SLTrib coverage but Texas press coverage of the Canadian polygamy reference case is sorely lacking.

  34. Jim, I guess it’d be a good idea but why do you think Texas has or ought to have that great an interest in Canada?

  35. @Jim I’ve been participating as anonymous instead of any of my more usual monikers

  36. Here’s a report and it’s more extensive than articles in SLTrib.
    From D-news in SLC:

    Reports that Judge Walthers sealed new evidence from CPS.

  37. Gee Anon, Uncle Lindsay Hammon Barlow was in court all the way from Hildale? He must be in charge of security and witness tampering, huh?

    The importance of covering the Canadian polygamy reference case is two fold, firstly the information honestly testified to in court by plural wives showed a glimpse behind the covert and fanatical veil of FLDS Church beliefs and practices. For instance, one wife testified that even though her priestly husband married a 5th wife, who was only 15 years old, she didn’t see any wrong in it and explained it away as divine revelation.

    Secondly, the unfounded claim that ‘Freedom of Religion’ is absolute and is imperious to other rights or freedoms is soon to be denied and anti-polygamy statute will be reaffirmed. The additional crimes of illegal border crossings and trafficking in ‘Child Brides’, unlawful business wages and illicit education practices in their schools highlights the probable violations occurring at the ‘Felony Farm’ in Eldorado for local Law Enforcement to be more aware.

    Additionally, the strings that tie Bountiful, BC, Canada to Schleicher County are being pulled on by the Texas end of things and not vice versa.

  38. A Texan, that part about sealing evidence from CPS isn’t quite true. Eric Nichols entered a document he labeled Exhibit 1 which was basically a list of everything that had been produced to Defendants. He said that they produced the information to Gerry Goldstein’s office as a central clearing house for all defense counsel. That document is what was sealed by the court. He then gave 4 CDs to defense counsel that contained CPS files on Mildred, Veda, Ruth, Merrianne, and Shannon. Mildred could be 1 of 2 people, either Millie who was an underage bride back in 1999 or Mildred Blackmore, an underage girl from Canada. This was never enter into the case, merely passed to defense counsel.

    Fred also said he would give to the new defense counsel what the State had given to him.

  39. CAJim, I’m pretty sure that the Texas AG is monitoring the Canadian case. I mean Eric Nichols did give an affidavit in the matter. Just because it isn’t in the news everyday in Texas doesn’t mean it isn’t being watched.

  40. Anon

    One would think that after a lawyer finishes reading 3 terabytes of data, and a courtroom stacked floor to ceiling with evidence, the picture of their client would finally emerge… he he

    Nothing like taking a bite of a bitter fruit!

  41. not 3 stamp, 13 terabytes.

  42. OK – thirteen terabytes? Heck he must have been making home movies!

    That attorney will be getting an education he wont soon forget!

    And his entire legal team too, no doubt.

  43. I’m thinking about the cost to store 13 terabytes.

  44. Well that was rather fast editorial yesterday from the Toronto’Globe & Mail’, named ‘Draw a Legal Line on Polygamy’. The editor not wishing to await the Supreme Court final hearings and closures has declared their view as an emphatic stance on upholding and continuing to limit ‘Freedom of Religion’ concerning polygamy.

    Five areas that establish polygamy’s harms are:

    Stated coercion and exploitation of vunerable children and women,

    failure to teach prerequsite sex education in public supported school,

    ostracized boys from imbalanced bigamist community,

    pronounced teenage pregnancy which is triple the provincial average


    trafficking minor girls from US into Canada.

    Editor’s position is strongly worded in associated harms due to the practice and presence of polygamy in the Bountiful, BC area.

  45. Good find, CaJim, and valid points.

    Those Canadians arent stupid after all!


  47. It appears that Raymond and Keate’s Brief was filed in their appeal on the 31st. Wonder if it will be accepted since it was due on the 28th.

  48. Interesting find by A Texan RE Attorney Kearney’s education. That web site says “Mr. Kearney was born on August 8, 1948 in Galveston, Texas. He is a 1971 graduate of Texas Christian University, and received his J.D. from Baylor University Law School in 1972.”

    It looks like he is a “real” Christian who may not go along with Warren’s “God made me do it” defense.

  49. Let’s discuss Edson. His first and legal wife was Elaine Johnson. Next he married Elaine’s sister Sara Louise. He and Elaine had 14 kids, none of which were brought to the YFZ, the youngest of whom would have just been a baby when daddy up and left. Edson had 15 kids with Sara Louise. Same story about the youngest, she would have been just a baby when daddy up and fled to Texas.

    When Edson married the 3 widows of Carl Young, he acquired 8 children of Zavanda’s, 6 children of May’s and 7 children of Permelia’s. He proceeded to have 5 children with Zavanda, 4 children with May and 5 children with Permelia. BTW, Zavanda, May and Permelia are sisters. May and Permelia having the same mother and father and Zavanda sharing a father with them.

  50. Mr. Kearney defended a woman who hit a homeless man and drove home with the man stuck in her windshield and left him there to die, never getting him any help. He’ll go for the “God made me do it” hook, line and sinker.

  51. Just how well does their FLDS defiant disregard of the law work for them?

  52. Edson – wowser.

    Hey, Canada, is this what you want? Got Welfare?

  53. I remember that “pedestrian stuck in the windshield and left to die in a garage” story.


  54. Mike Heiskell is listed as atty for the driver, Mallard, (a nurses aid ahem)

    “A new description for inhuman”


  55. Yep…I too remember the lady that hit the man and left him in her windshield…hid her car in the garage…wowza!! As I remember…the man did not die instantly..but…died later of his injuries…can’t remember what happened to the lady that hit him though??? anyone remember???

  56. Oh, Kearney was named atty later.

    “But Kearney said Mallard was upset with the length of the sentence. He said he would appeal her conviction and argue Biggs’ death didn’t meet the legal definition of murder.”


  57. The article says she got 50 years – but Kearney wanted to appeal it – dont know yet if that happened.

  58. She got 50 years for the murder and 10 years for tampering with evidence. Since it happened in 2003 she should still be in prison.

  59. I see a ton of articles on it, but nothing of Kearney’s fulfilled promise of an appeal.

    Guess he was just being a gasbag.

  60. He did appeal, the verdict was Affirmed.

  61. I think the lady didn’t think it should matter since the man was homeless???

    Can you imagine leaving a person stuck in your broken windshield??? That’s about as bad as it gets…!!!

  62. Thinking about Brother Edson, he was brought to the YFZ early on to make furniture.

  63. Is Edson the next one up for trial? I lost track of who is still to go to trial. Can you guys give me a summary of who and when after WSJ? Hard to believe the remainder are still hanging around waiting. I would expect one or two to “go fish in the gulf of Mexico” and not come back.

  64. Merril, Wendell and Leroy Johnson Steed are all that’s left. Edson didn’t get indicted. He’s child bride marriage never got off the ground because her father Allen Steed wouldn’t let it. Saved his daughter, but got exed for his trouble.

  65. Like Edson REALLY needs another wife!

  66. Nice to know someone had the balls to say no.

  67. Exactly–why give Edson another wife if he up and left all of those behind?? How crazy is that???

  68. Is Edson a relation to ‘Shrek’? I’m just aayin’.

  69. What a crazy woman. So how did she get caught? Did someone report the homeless man missing? Nah, there must have been a witness. weird.

  70. Imagine the flies in her garage

    Nah. Don’t.

  71. Geesh Uncle Thread, I just spit my wine all over my keyboard laughing at your comment. What a waste of a good Chardonnay.

  72. I have reason to believe that FLDS witness #8 is a daughter of Marion Hammon – probably either Martha, Ireta or Luella – daughters of one of his 19 wives who was named Francis.

    In witness #8’s affidavit she says that her father valued women, however it is my understanding that he was verbally abusive to them at home and in public speaking from the pulpit before the church congregation.

    Obviously witness #8 never read her father’s book of sermons, before saying that he valued women.

    Francis was the wife he trashed the most in public during church. It was so bad one Sunday that she was just sobbing.

  73. The old boy, Marion, likely never felt a thing.

  74. Good find – I couldnt find Kearney in the doc, so dont know if he worked the appeal.

    However, we should take note of this:

    On his website he claims to make quick off the cuff comments in high profile cases after prosecutors talk and BEFORE a judge places a gag order.

    Yet on this case, he went on the record right away as saying this nurses aids actions of keeping this wounded and trapped man stuck in a windshield for a few days until he expired “didnt amount to the legal definition of murder..”

    Well, sorry Mr. Jeff Kearney, she was convicted and the conviction held up on appeal – so Warren, read it and weep.

    Perhaps Jeff should sue Baylor for not providing him an adequate edjumacation.

    Rhodney Rheck did that – pro se, and guess what he lost and lost the appeal too just like Jeff’s client who wanted a second swing at the bat.

    And to answer the question – yes she had help, a friend recommended dumping the body at a park, and her friends helped her dump the body there.

    They were also sent to prison.

  75. Check it out – the FLDS made Alternet’s list of dangerous religious organizations

  76. I wonder if we will finally stop hearing that these young girls were only “spiritually” married and still virgins now that all this evidence to the contrary is available.

  77. Another bandwagon for you to jump on, NA, 8:21.

  78. Well, you all are a danger to yourselves and othes.

  79. I don’t have to jump on the bandwagon, my friend. It appears that “the bandwagon” already has a lot of heavyweights on it… like the Southern Poverty Law Center which believes that the FLDS is a racist hate group.

  80. Here you go, Me Again – the SPLC Map of Hate Groups in Utah – and the FLDS is on it

  81. Here is their detailed listing

  82. From the Buffalo, NY Area : This man claims that God gave him the strength to perform the “honor killing” of his wife.

  83. Classic troll behavior. Don’t add an idea, make a reasonable rebuttal or provide information. Instead, enter the conversation by insulting a poster or ridiculing their ideas. Put other posters on the defensive from the first word. Purpose? Divert conversation away from facts and ideas and onto them.

    Don’t feed them.

  84. Stamp said “Yet on this case, he went on the record right away as saying this nurses aids actions of keeping this wounded and trapped man stuck in a windshield for a few days until he expired “didnt amount to the legal definition of murder..””

    So this woman was a nurse’s aid and she left this dying man (whom SHE had run over) stuck in her windshield for days until he died?. HOLY COW!

    It sounds like this attorney Kearney defends the lowest of the lowlifes.

    Probably why Warren hired him!

  85. For those of you who have read Jon Krakauer’s “Under the Banner of Heaven”, you’ll recognize the name Ron Lafferty.

    It looks like Utah may get another round of national attention regarding their polygamists gone haywire –

    Ron Lafferty case will proceed while the man’s competency is evaluated

  86. I have been gone from the blog for a couple of years now. I just was informed yesterday by reliable sources that the flds faithful in Colorado City have had to inventory everything in there homes, down to how many crayons, and what color the crayons are,and turn the list in. Also, that the income earners are to turn in there paychecks, and then be issued a stipend, something akin to what the Kingstons do.
    Finally on the plot of land Joe Jessop used to garden, there is a 3 or four story structure going up, surrounded by a 10 foot fence and huge spotlights. Reminded my source of a prison.

  87. also, I heard that everyone has been rebaptised and the men, there priesthood reconferred.
    Any idea who did the baptising?

  88. long time gone, are you implying that the FLDS faithful will have to sell even their crayons to pay for Warren’s “God made me do it” defense?

  89. Speaking of the “God made me do it” defense, that didn’t work out so well for Dan and Ron Lafferty. More on those 2 clowns –

    Judge says Lafferty can have a competency evaluation

  90. Long time gone, the party responsible for the re-baptisms is Lyle.

  91. From what I heard, the items not allowed (such as flashy colored crayons) will need to be removed from the home. The edict is the same as to the people at yfz: to eliminate all”worldly influences” and yearn for zion:
    Interestingly, the big structure has the word “ZION” on the face

    IITmoc, if you see this, we are praying for you and all others who see thru this crap, but must be feeiling even more pressure

  92. … and in Egypt they’ve gotten out the camels and horses and sticks and stones to battle forces between pharoah and mohammed

    No flashy colored crayolas!

  93. Oh my Heck, Warren is gonna crap a brick, Crayolas now come in worldly names that mistify and frighten even the most arduent religious fanatic!


    Aztec Gold Burnished Brown Cerulean Frost Cinnamon Satin Copper Penny Cosmic Cobalt
    Glossy Grape Granite Gray Green Sheen Lilac Luster Misty Moss Mystic Maroon
    Pearly Purple Pewter Blue Polished Pine Quick Silver Rose Dust Rusty Red
    Shadow Blue Shiny Shamrock Steel Teal Sugar Plum Twilight Lavender Wintergreen Dream


    And handing your paycheck over to pay for his new fangled attorney – hmmm that wont sit well, nor will being forced to submit to the humility of having Lyle Jeffs, creep extraordinaire, lay hands on you.

  94. long time gone, that’s very interesting. Wonder if this sort of intrusion will cause some of the mature men to defect.

  95. LTG, can you say whether these edicts are from Warren through Lyle or just through Lyle? (Or Wendell or whoever. Maybe there’s no way to tell… Lyle – or whoever – could be SAYING it’s from Warren when it’s actually his own thumbscrew.)

    My question is derived from what Warren has said in his available dictations that Short Creek is doomed and basically abandoned.

    If this is directly from Warren… oh… I’m sure you get my drift… profits and all that jazz… just a carrot’s worth of care. (i.e., “On second thought I shouldn’t really waste potential profits. My defense is proving to be awfully expensive, so I’ll just keep them BELIEVING I still care and they still have a chance to come to Zion.”

  96. Wacky, God made the rainbow and all the earthly colors of nature. So does FLDS believe heaven is black and white only or just plainly colored?

  97. Well, ET, you’ve got to remember that Short Creek is doomed unless Warren needs money, then it becomes the cash cow.

    Since it was John Wayman who wrote the check to the new attorney, maybe all the turned over paychecks go to him to reimburse him for his expenditures on the profit’s behalf.

  98. Well… I’m just a tad curious exactly what/how Lyle thinks of his brother… just how “faithful” is he to his crazy brother’s ways?

  99. I’m not at all in the dark as to just what kind of cow$$ Warren needs/keeps in his corral.

  100. Whyyyyyy those are sacred cows dontchaknow

  101. By your definition, Betty 12:08, most here are TROLLS!

  102. Amusing, me again we don’t discuss YOUR topics but we don’t know where YOUR blog is to discuss those at? Take a flip.

    YOU don’t want to discuss human rights abuses, civil rights abuses, criminal actions — what is it you’d approve us discussing at this blog?

  103. Betty,
    It may cause a defection, but I also wonder if this will expose the ones like iitmoc who are trying to stay in but want out.

    E texas, I was told Lyle sent out the lists to be filled out, “for the prophet to see who was worthy of Zion” of course

  104. I know when I left, I managed to keep it quiet for a month. Of course, working for a flds owned business, I started being asked why I hadn’t been to church for a few weeks

  105. The inventory would have several effects. For one thing, if the leadership needed something and someone had one, they could just go get it. Need a woodsplitter or a sewing machine for some project? Just seize Joe’s. It could also point out if people say their income is X for the purpose of tithing, but they suddenly have lots of new furniture, then maybe they aren’t being truthful. Then there’s TV’s, stereo’s, iPods, phones, computers, games, sports equipments, books, etc. If you don’t report it and someone sees you with it, then you’re in trouble. If you do report it, then they can tell you to get rid of it.

  106. 1 why doesn’t the “God Squad” go around and do inventory? If they don’t trust people not to have banned items, why would they trust them to be truthful about it?

    2 didn’t the CPS workers claim that the children had never seen crayons and didn’t know what to do with them?

    3 Weren’t all building projects on UEP land suspended when the state took over the trust? Isn’t that why they have all those unfinished log houses that are starting to fall apart because they don’t have any windows?

  107. or claim it for their own.

  108. As far as getting them to do the inventory – it’s like getting them to write down a confession. Some are going to tell you more than you were looking for. Basically, it’s a psychological game to find out who is most obedient. Also, Warren has gradually become more and more strict; you could report something that is considered OK and he could decide that it is now evil.

    I’ve heard various stories about the crayons and don’t know what to believe. I’ve read that it was true and also that it was totally made up by a reporter. I’ve not been able to trace it back to a real source, only to a particular reporter who if I recall correctly, was British. So I honestly don’t know what to think about the crayon thing. If they ban “play” for children, is a crayon a toy or a learning tool? Dunno.

    Good question on #3, but with all the law suits, what’s the fiduciary going to be able to do to stop it?

  109. What was going on at the ranch might not have been the same as what was going on in the Crick. Remember the group at the ranch are the “chosen” ones, so they had to stay prayerful all the time. I know that our church donated a lot of toys, including crayons and coloring books for the children.

  110. At CC they may be only learning what’s going on at YFZ from this site.

  111. I’m wondering how Emack’s other wives took the news of his teeneybopper bride. It couldn’t have been very pleasant to learn about it by the fact that he had been arrested for sexual assault on a teenager.

  112. Yes he humiliated all those other women and children.

  113. My understanding about the building I mentioned is that it is not on UEP ground.

  114. For those of you who have read Jon Krakauer’s “Under the Banner of Heaven”, you’ll recognize the name Ron Lafferty.
    It looks like Utah may get another round of national attention regarding their polygamists gone haywire –
    Ron Lafferty case will proceed while the man’s competency is evaluated


    Oh the mainstream LDS church was so pissed at Jon Krakauer for tracing the fuel that ignited the murderous Lafferty brothers straight back to the Mormon Church’s teachings about polygamy and blood atonement.

    Gosh, where are the “freedom of religion” people on this issue – because that’s what the Laffertys were doing when they murdered Brenda and her baby – practicing their fundamentalist Mormon religious beliefs.

  115. Good point, Mouse.

  116. There’s land in Short Creek that isn’t UEP? I don’t guess I was aware of this. Who was allowed to keep their property and not put it in the trust?

  117. Shouldn’t there be online access to deed records by plat?

  118. Uncle Thread, try this for Hildale addresses –

    Just select HILDALE from the drop-down list under cities and hit the SEARCH button and several pages of properties will be listed.

    You can also use this site, but you need to know a more legal description of the property to search on it –

    Have fun; it will take up hours of your time!

  119. Sorry, I should have given the links to get to the search page for the properties in Hildale.

    Go to this web page – – and then click on Assessor Home and then choose “Search by Address?” under the search text box – “Search by Address?” will be in very small font on the left of 2 choices – “Search by address?” and “Advanced Options”. You want the “Search by address?”. Then just choose HILDALE from the drop-down box in the CITY text box and hit ENTER.

  120. ProudTexan, there is a little bit of land in the Creek that is not UEP land. But not much. Some people never consecrated their land to the UEP, like members of the Black family up Water Canyon Road and there is some private land in the Maxwell Canyon area and also a state park in Maxwell Canyon.

    Obviously, there is also land closer into Hildale where the 4 multiplex homes went up last year and this new ZION building is being built. I do know that I did many property searches 4-5 years ago and there was a lot of land “owned” by Uncle Fred Jessop that was NOT listed as UEP-owned land.

    Maybe Warren absconded with this land after Uncle Fred died and changed title to it and Bruce Wisan never “discovered” it and it is now free FLDS land.

    Now, there’s an oxymoron – Free FLDS land!

  121. Ah yeah. Liars lie. Thieves steal.

  122. Well didn’t Warren abscond with Uncle Fred? Could just as easily absconded Uncle Fred’s signatures onto some deeds.

  123. I had and hold the distinct belief that the YFZ Raunch residents were inside the ‘Felony Farm’ only by special invitation. The newer ‘Lands of Refuge’ in Pringle, Mancos and Eldorado were/are a select enclave group(s) and the majority of Short Creek residents were not only clueless of what was planned but were not likely to ever be selected to join the ‘Willy Wonka Factory’, too bad no gold ticket. Is the YFZ Raunch after 7+felony convictions of known residents, the Temple uses are still in question/investigation and no resident prophet seems to have cooled the go-go ‘BoomTown’ atmosphere of just a mere two years ago.

    Like the old adage,’How do you keep’em down on the farm after they’ve seen gay Paris`’? After all the arrests, trials and convictions, who’s yearning for Zion now?

  124. “After all the arrests, trials and convictions, who’s yearning for Zion now?”

    Likely not Warrens harem – who would want to live at the “Henhouse H Block Walled up inside the walled compound”…

    Well they can just move there and keep sweet about it. However I still pity all those children that are forced to live in Pedo-land.

  125. I was reading at SLTrib. In Utah LDS apparently think there is some “polygamy question” the rest of the US knows nothing about.

    Perhaps it is something about rewriting US and State bureaucracies, laws such as inheritance and child support, parental responsibilities, insurance, social security, medicare, the entire lot, in order to “decriminalize” polygamy.

    I can’t tell what they mean by use of that phrase. It could be anything.

  126. link, Granny?

  127. Maybe this legislation is being considered in Utah ?

  128. It’s the Utah view of the Canadian cases

  129. Perhaps it is something about rewriting US and State bureaucracies, laws such as inheritance and child support, parental responsibilities, insurance, social security, medicare, the entire lot, in order to “decriminalize” polygamy.
    Not really, with US current divorce rates the laws are already in place.

  130. Granny in case you are unaware the orthodox LDS define the US Constitutional ‘Freedom of Religion’ as including their practice of polygamy. They ignore the Supreme Court ruling that limits this freedom to religious worship that doesn’t include breaking any existing legal statute and reasoning that their religion is the reason for their breaking/violating the law. I guess they forget that cannibalism, human sacrafices and temple prostitution fall under the same limits but they insist that their rights are being denied them. It seems to me that their insistence is more an attempt to coop or use coercion to extract a right that has never existed or has been lawfully practiced in either here in the US, Canada or Mexico. Actually, then they are not insistant upon a Constitutional right but rather they are demanding a privelege that would be held solely by their religious faith and unique to themselves. Their chances of receiving a favorable court ruling or being granted this unique privilege is nill.

  131. No, Anonymous, they are not already in place. And from data collected internationally, it seems the divorce rate for polygamy is much higher than for monogamy.

    Right now, Social Security only pays for legally married spouse (one at a time), who were married at the time of death or who were married for twenty years or more to collect SS benefits from the deceased. Imagine what would happen to the Social Security “trust fund” if one wage earner’s contributions were paid out to 8 spouses after he died? Only one check for death expenses is cut, no matter how many wives might want to use that $250. Insurance companies in Utah will go under if they try to insure families for medical coverage at the current family rate, which assumes a family of 4-6 rather than a family of 80!

    There is no provision in current divorce for the incomes and assets of co-wives. If there were four wives, two working and two not working and one leaves, how do they distribute the assets? Cut it five ways? How about child support, do the working wives pay for the children of a non working wife who leaves the marriage? What about if the man dies, who gets the house? There have been law suits in Africa of this type, one where the older wife who worked and paid for the house was thrown out on the street so that the wives with children could live in the house! What if the older wife did not give permission for marriage to the younger wives?

    In fact, inheritance is one of the issues that caused polygamy to be discontinued – it’s the main issue with polygamy in the story of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar. Sarah is fine with the whole idea until SHE has a son whose inheritance might be threatened by the other son!

    Polygamy is a gold mine for lawyers and a land mine for the legislature.

  132. “Not really, with US current divorce rates the laws are already in place.”

    That’s the point, Anonymous 9:25. If polygamy were to be legalized those laws would have to be revamped and, in many cases, rewritten altogether. Trying to make laws existing for monogamy cover polygamy just won’t work. For instance, a man with 5 wives goes through a divorce with one of them. How do they split the assets? Does she get 1/5th? What if she was the first and only wife for their first 20 years of marriage until he went through his mid-life crisis and decided he needed more nookie? Is it right to limit her cut of the assets when she would have been one of the primary factors in building those assets? Doesn’t seem equitable to me.

  133. Some days, I think that the government should just get out of the marriage business entirely, maybe by an Amendment to the Constitution. You feel that marriage is sacred, that’s nice; GO TO CHURCH not the COURTHOUSE. There are standard forms for medical and legal POA and they are not that expensive. DNA tests and adoption papers tell us who the parents are. When you die, no one gets your SS check, because no one else paid in to it. You pay insurance on 4 people in your house, who cares if they are all related or not.

    Get rid of deductions on taxes and just have a flat percentage tax (that’s lower than the current one) for everyone, corporations, too. No more game playing, just pay your fair share and shut up about it. Don’t care how many kids you have, did you consult us before you got pregnant?

    Then come down like a ton of bricks on the other crimes; put them away for life for “marrying” a 14 year old because the Prophet said to. Raise the age of consent everywhere to 18 years old unless the child gets a waiver from a judge with approval of the parents. Write into child sexual assault clauses about undue influence that include religious coercion, teachers and other authority figures and add another 10 years for it. Get rid of any and all laws about sex that are not related to rape or abuse of children, the insane, the mentally challenged, drugged, etc. Keep at them about child labor, not paying minimum wage. Make it illegal to take church tithings directly out of anyone’s pay check. And so on.

    Require mandatory minimum levels of education and enforce it. Provide extra social services options in areas where polygamy is a big problem so that women have options.

    I’m really not sure that making it illegal works, or that enforcing the polygamy laws would make any difference. It’s kind of like drug prohibition; it just makes it an underground source of power and money. I do believe that the sentences that Tony Alamo got and some of the FLDS members have already gotten do make a difference. I think that if Utah had done that in the past, instead of giving a man a few days in jail for abusing multiple daughters, that we would not have this situation now! That man should never have been allowed near another child for the rest of his life, let alone returned home to molest the rest of his daughters!

  134. This month’s Safety Net Committee meeting starts in 10 minutes. It is coming to you live from Colorado City and can be seen here –

    Bets on the Centennial Parkers whining about decriminalizing polygamy? They ALWAYS do!

    And Mary Batchelor will probably be there to tell all about her trip to British Columbia to testify in the polygamy reference case.

  135. Betty you have some very good ideas on resolving these issues. Enforcement in Utah and Arizona lead to the scattering by the FLDS Church into South Dakota, Texas and Colorado. I think this escalated the problem to a Federal issue and the RICO Act is designed to handle this behavior. Education requirements need certain empowerments to redress known religious sects that limit or attempt to preclude sex education, emancipation rights and civil rights. After sex abuse and rape are proven to exist with these fanatical sects, probation and greater regulations need to exist to combat these groups practices of indoctrination and cult-like behaviors.

    I applaud your ideas and thoughts, you obviously care about the victims, crime spree and continuing generational exposure concerns.

  136. Thanks, CalJim. If they make me Queen, I’ll let you know. LOL.

  137. Well I am just a bigot, persecutor and hate all Mormons but I do like your opinions, Hee,hee.

  138. OKAY… okay… Betty! Now you’ve gone and done it!… in writing no less!!!! Geeezus! How the samhill did you get into MY brain and steal MY ideas, and then you boldly come on here and splash them out for all to see. Criminy sakes!

    But… on second thought, I actually have no problem giving credit where it’s (definitely!) due. You are, after all, a wonderful thinker. One major difference between your thoughts (what you just laid out) and mine is I don’t just think those things SOME DAYS. I’ve been thinking that way for YEARS!!

    So! I don’t know who “they” are, but here and now, I vote you Queen! Yep… you rock!

  139. “..Write into child sexual assault clauses about undue influence that include religious coercion, teachers and other authority figures and add another 10 years for it…”

    Your position most closely mirrors the suggested “read down” of anti polygamy statutes in Canada that one sees in the affidavit and position statement of the feminist group West Coast LEAF. See the Canadian Reference Case thread.

  140. Well, I don’t agree with the “read down” because it lacks the other changes. I don’t think polygamous women are better off as second class wives compared to legal wives. Nor do I think that those who are in closed communities will have more or less opportunity to report abuse if they do not have the threat of prosecution for polygamy, since that is obviously a very weak threat.

  141. LOL! East Texas. When I first started arguing this, almost three years ago, I spent a lot of time on these libertarian type ideas. But everyone kind of got tired of listening to me. Glad to see I’m not the lone ranger.

  142. I have a question:

    I think I’ve read somewhere that Texas prison inmates are allotted something like 120 minutes or so of telephone time per month. Is that correct? If so, whom are they allowed to call?

    Are there different rules for local jails – like the one Warren is in right now?

    Okay… that was three questions. Anybody?

  143. Betty, were you arguing your ‘libertarian type ideas’ here on this forum? Or somewhere else. (I only joined this party about a year ago.) Sorry I wasn’t around to be your Tonto.

  144. I started on the Salt Lake Tribune articles and Brooke’s blog before coming here.

  145. Ahhh… unfortunately, I didn’t have the patience to stick with most of the Trib stuff. Made me want to tear my hair out.

  146. The aspect in all this misbhevior, lying and crime spree is the simple fact that Theocracy is being pledged, adhered to and espoused and democratic values, civic responsibility and the Supreme Court’s interpretations ignored. The FLDS Church Warrenites, like Willie ‘Thug’ Jessop, proclaims this is a religious freedom question and he knows it’s a thinly veiled attempt to overthrow our duly elected form of governance.

    They believe in their prophet not the President, they pledge allegiance to their religion and disavow fellow Americans, naming them ‘Gentiles’ and they have no intent of recanting, restraining or changing their misbegotten priveleges even if they’re arrested tried and convicted. They are the elect and the balace of America are the devils own. They don’t say it plain and straight, they prefer it crooked, maswked and hels as a sacred secret!

  147. Sorry….(the close) is ‘…they prefer it crooked, masked and held as a sacred secret’!

  148. ET, I think they are allowed telephone time if they have a phone card. I’m not sure how much time they are allowed, but the cost is about 75 cents per minute. At the local jail in Angelo, they can use the phone one time per week and then it’s if you’ve purchased a phone card in the prison store. You can only spend $50 per week, so if you spend it all on that phone card, you’re out of luck for other essentials.

  149. No, *I* want to be Queen.

    And for good measure, King too.

  150. It’s good to be the Queen. (hat tip to Mel Brooks)

  151. where’s my “like” button?

  152. I goofed this morning when I posted

    “This month’s Safety Net Committee meeting starts in 10 minutes. It is coming to you live from Colorado City and can be seen here –

    Bets on the Centennial Parkers whining about decriminalizing polygamy? They ALWAYS do!

    And Mary Batchelor will probably be there to tell all about her trip to British Columbia to testify in the polygamy reference case.”

    The meeting is actually TOMORROW – Friday from 9-11 AM MST – and can be viewed online at the link listed above. The meetings are usually on Thursdays, but will be on Friday this month.

    Now I understand why the live feed never came up. I was cursing the AV people but I had my days confused. Color me stupid!

  153. FLDS Texas admin, I posted on the Allan Keate thread, but my post had 3 links in it and got flagged. Sorry! I should have broken it up into two postings. Would you please go release it? Thank you in advance!

  154. Anon 9:21 pm : thanks for your posting, and here I was thinking something was wrong with my Android phone. There is a Ustream app for the android phone which works well, and I will be watching tomorrow. Please post to remind me.

  155. Check this out:

  156. ubetcherbippy

  157. Yeah, they have some kinda prison phone card that costs out the kazoo is the only way they can call out. The prison makes money off its use.

  158. Attila the Queen, prisons commissaries have a GOLD MINE! They are virtually the only approved act in the prison to provide any “luxuries”.

    The inmates can ONLY get what they need from the prison commissary – a new mattress, pillows, sheets, towels, toothbrush – you name it. If a prisoner needs ANYTHING, it must be purchases from the prison commissary.

    And the price markup is quite high compared to regular stores.

    The situation reminds me of the old song “I sold myself to the company store”

    Further, if an inmate doesn’t keep the receipt and is asked to prove to the prison guards that they did not steal the item, but did legitimately buy the item, then the item is considered contraband and it absconded with buy the guard. And it makes me wonder what happens to this item after the guard absconded with it because we all know that the inmates are NOT the only crooks in the prison

  159. BiB, please post the app for android. I need it.

  160. FYI, the CC Safety Net mtgs are not broadcast live because they don’t have the equipment for it. Might be recorded and broadcast later.

  161. Proud Texan, go to the ustream site on your Android phone. The Ustream site has a Ustream for Android app on it. Just click to download.

  162. I just checked, “Q” is correct, there is no live streaming of the Safety Net Conference.

  163. I found this interesting – from Mudpuppy’s blog:

    “In all probability, Texas will try to send Warren Jeff’s to prison for the rest of his life. If they do, it will be for the birth of this child.”

    It has a picture of a blonde boy and a girl who isn’t Merrianne or Veda. Maybe the AG needs to investigate further. Maybe Brenda Lei and/or Loretta Jane had children with Warren too.

  164. Since I’m ProudTexan and I’m not Debra Brown, I’ll be posting to my heart’s content.

    Good try Bill.

  165. Who is Debra Brown and what does she have to do with anything?

    And why doesn’t the poison running through Medvecky’s veins kill him?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  166. Bill –
    I know who Proud Texan is.
    Proud Texan is not Debra Brown.

  167. It’s so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don’t say it.

    Being stupid is its own reward.

  168. Bill M I am still waiting for Warren’s demise that you proclaimed two years ago during his hunger strike, you think a rent-a-cop is Funny but you forget that you thought TBM was the FBI or Texas Ranger and the YFZ Ranch children were returned to the ‘Felony Farm’ with seven felony convictions and counting.

    I guess you missed the witness admissions by FLDS members last week that underage marriage, illegal border documentations and statutory rapes are called ‘celestial’ marriges. Say, keep posting those still photos of children, they can’t be interviewed and you can live in your ‘Hellmark’ postcard fantasy.

  169. CAJim, I especially love his photo essay of Christmas 2009 at Fort Concho. He’s about 8 months or so late with his timeframe. The FLDS rented out Fort Concho on the 1 year anniversary of the rescue. That was in March 2009, not Christmas.

    Also that picture he shows that he says will put Warren in prison in Texas. That child isn’t from Merrianne or Veda and those are the only 2 he is charged with having sex with, presently.

  170. Well PT what can I add, BillM is no prophet. He overlooks the felonies that were committed to insure the children have a roof over their heads, even if that roof means no sexual abuse protection will be provided, parental shunning and ostracizing is allowed and ‘One Man Rule’ leaves the parents free from blame or worries, if they “Keep Sweet”. 437 children were discovered hidden on the YFZ Ranch and BillM has no problem with that and they again are sequestered from view again.

  171. This is interesting:

    First off, of course they are going to flee, they are all breaking the law by being married to more than one woman and they are most probably still marrying off underage girls.

    Second, I hope either Utah or Arizona taxes that property to the hilt. They’d better find another use for it, because Warren is going to be spending the better part of the rest of his life in Huntsville or one of it’s subsidiaries.

    Third, are the people in the Crick to stupid to realize that Warren left them behind and only wants their money, even if he were ever to get out of jail he wouldn’t be going back there. It’s a “God forsaken place” as told by him in his dictations.

  172. Fieldnotes film hmmmm interesting

  173. mudpucky rrrreally off ‘is rocker & around the bend. Nasty little fellow.

  174. So BM has another blog site?

  175. One of Warren’s brothers:

    Birth Date: 09/22/77
    Address : 2056 E MIDDLETON DR; 33, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    15:04:00 02/02/11 Ashworth, Jeff SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  176. Well anyway ol Joe’s scrolls have sure shown him up again, haven’t they.

  177. Turning in my inventory now!

    One ipod, for all those awesome Warren Jeffs sermons!

    Windows 7 laptop, for googling our prophet daily and holding him up to the Microsoft God!

    72 inch LCD TV, for watching out for all the worldly influences out there! HBO, STARZ, CNN, FOXNEWS

    F350 Ford pickup for all the Walmart runs to fill our storehouse!

    No pesky toys

    6 ATV’s for running to bubba Bishop Lyle’s house.


    Candy Apple Cadillac Red

    Gray Bar Gray

    Dooms day Black

    YFZ Yellow

    Where’s Waldo White

    Pink Skirt Pink

    Tattletale Tangerine

    Allah Ackbar Azure

    C.Y.A. Cyan

    Keep Sweet Khaki

    Fundy Fuschia

    Pioneer Purple

    Tithe me Green



    Under the Banner of Heaven

    No Man Knows my History

  178. Enoch Steed Jeffs looks like he is exed or left, interested in his back story. Looks like he neglected a ticket or such, perhaps not too nefarious.

    Bet he has some stories to tell!

  179. Enoch was exed, I’m not sure the cause, but I’ll bet he does have stories to tell. Maybe Mike Watkiss could interview him about his thoughts on his brother being in prison.

  180. Did you notice at 20:19 that he talks about God working with a group of other Gods to create the world.

  181. RICO love your Crayola Colors, what about :

    Seized Evidence red

    Big Lake blues

    Greedy Attorney green (a richer shade of Tithe Me green)

    Legal Retainers rose

    Ostacized Occult orange (prison jumpsuit)

    Priesthood Pillow pink

    Yearling Yearning yellow

    Child Bride & Bishop brown

    FLDS Church Whitewash clear

  182. What about government confiscated evidence Cadillac Red crayon ?

  183. I’ve got a question (well, I’ve got a LOT of questions) about Naomie Jeffs.

    From what I understand, women in the FLDS certainly aren’t valued as the intellectual and social equals of the men – hence, their place in the social structure as a commodity.

    So how does Naomie end up being Jeff’s “scribe,” co-conspirator in a lot of his activities, companion on the lam, etc?

    Clearly she had some value as a FLDS wife when Rulon selected her for marriage (at what, age 90?) and Warren took her after Rulon’s death.

    I wonder what her role is in the selection and organization of the YFZ population and activities?

    I don’t remember reading about her being a baby making machine and I don’t see her as a public figure at any of the trials or on any of the “news shows.”

    Warren’s got a lot of wives. What is so special about her?

    Naomie sure comes up a bunch of times in all those blacked out pages of documents posted with the evidence here.

    Don’t think she is protected by the spousal testimonial privilege!

    Anyone have some thoughts here?

  184. I am thinking she was the weenies favorite???

  185. Jobo,
    I am surprised to see you suggest that there is favoritism in polygyny.
    Everyone knows that polygynous husbands love all their wives equally –
    (sarcasm off)

  186. observing,

    Good points – there are lots of unindicted co-conspirators, I think that is the term you might call them.

    OTOH, I was thinking that the Texas Supreme Court has been eating their hats, putting hundreds of children back into what has been proven to be a child molestation ranch.

    But hey, those polygamists own those children lock stock and barrel, so what rights do those children have anyway?

    Think about it.

  187. CAJim

    LOL! More found in the box:

    Huntsville Horange

    Aaronic Acid Blue

    Shortcreek Rainbow Blush

    Berry Knoll Brown

    Juniper Creek JazzBerry

    Centennial Park Purple

    UEP Pink

    Mothers Many Magenta

    Prison Blues Blue

    Barlow Blue Violet

    HOOT HOT Magenta

    Manila Folder Mellow Yellow

    Cult Cornflower

    KoolAid Razzmatazz

  188. Naomie was the wife of Rulon that stood up after his death and declared Warren as the successor. She made it possible for Warren to take over.

    As far as being a baby machine, she wasn’t. I’m guessing she was on some form of birth control because she sure was in a lot of heavenly sessions with Warren.

  189. Yes…I think she even had to stay awake and watch the weenie while he was sleeping and observe–“what took place?”…Not sure when she was able to sleep???

  190. This one is a grandson of Louis Joseph Barlow. According to Warren his last name is Allred, guess he didn’t get the memo about the name change:

    Birth Date: 04/05/86
    Address : 179 S 100 E, Ivins, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    20:27:48 02/04/11 Stevenson, Bett WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  191. RICO ROFLMAO my couch cushions held some more crayola colors :

    Jeffs Man Ran tan

    County Court Tom green

    Willie’s Slime lime

    One Man Rulon rouge

    Celestial Cellblock black

    Polygyny ‘Poofer’ pastel pink (just the wrapper,crayon is missing)

    Fundy Moron maroon

  192. Watched the weenie did she?

  193. I knew that Jim, on leave with pay. 10 comments before comments were shut down; my guess from the likes of BowelMovement.

    Doesn’t answer my question what it’s about. Is he just stirring his poo again?

    She’s been good about attending the trials and hearings and helping keep us all updated.

  194. Anyone else ever notice Merrill having given his address, in court under oath, as:

    22 East 100 South
    YFZ Ranch
    Alvarado TX

    following which his attorney Amy Hennington immedately informed the court he was taking the 5th, in other words MERRILL SHUT YOUR MOUTH

    … isn’t that up 35 toward Dallas?

  195. er Ft Worth I meant

  196. Well I’d say Bill’s delighted to bear bad news and hopes his negative bent is true. You know in Bill’s mind there aren’t very many good days or rewarding ways. He insists that the FLDS Church members are not proven rapists, child abusers, acessories and enablers. Rather Bill wants to look at pretty pictures from Creston, B.C. and ignore the FLDS testimonies that admit underage marriages occur, Child Brides are trafficked from the US, Canadian Child Brides are exported in exchange, minor girls are impregnated and hidden from legal authorities. Truman Olers testimony of being put to work and denied mandatory higher education, work wages that violate minimum lawful amounts, ostracizing by the FLDS family/community and refusing the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, besides the freedom of religion, to all sect residents. Bill is soon to see Prophet Jeffs convicted of aggravated sexual assault of two girls and his views and support of these heinous crimes will remain.
    Bill wants to believe that this is a civil and religious rights
    issue, regardless to the facts, evidences and verdicts to the contrary. Last weeks testimonies prove beyond the mere practice of polygamy that sex trafficking, rapes and many additional unlawful harms are committed within the FLDS Church and not even known or reported.

  197. They are both blogger sites. One is and the other is

    It wasn’t a secret, I didn’t know you wanted the sites, I thought you were just asking a question.

  198. Granny, I think that might have been a typo by the Court Reporter. He probably mumbled and said Eldorado and the court reporter heard differently. I mean think about it, Alvarado/Eldorado, they do sound alike.

  199. stamp – I wondered about those “un-indicted co-conspirators.” Don’t know how productive a subpoena would be or to what use any testimony might be.

    ProudTexan – I remember reading somewhere about Naomie standing up for Jeffs after his father died. I wonder how far in advance he and Naomie planned that?

  200. I understand they had an amusing warning system between uhm domiciles.

  201. Warren was planning his takeover well in advance of Rulon’s death, hence him being the “mouthpiece” for marriages.

  202. That’s funny about alvarado, hadn’t occurred to me.

  203. I have often admired the beautiful smiles (teeth) that some of these recent/current child brides have had. Yes, some of them have naturally perfect teeth, but I also wondered if some of the beautiful teeth were due to orthodontry.

    I brazenly ventured over to Bile McViles web site today and saw a young teenage girl with braces on. I am now more inclined to think that the girls DO use orthodontists to give them perfect smiles.

    So whose idea is that? If the child brides can’t use cosmetics or unique flattering hairdos, then correcting an ugly smile is almost the last ditch effort to give these “plain Jane” girls an improved prettiness.

    So, who pays for the braces, and if it is God’s will to be accepted as you are, then why is the FLDS approving of this “superficial” enhancement?

  204. Could be work of one or a few of their own.

  205. But that doesn’t answer your inquiry and frankly I cannot guess what their notions allow them to do or don’t from one generation to the next. About as easy to guess as what law they choose to follow or not.

  206. I often wonder about Naomi too.

    I find it interesting that she had to report back to Warren what he said in his heavenly sessions – and that what she reported was often favourable to her brothers. Such as they should be called as temple workers or given wives. And a lot of Warren’s other wives are her half or full sisters. Makes me wonder how much she had to do with Merril’s (her father) rise.

    I have read something in the dictations that indicated she had one child, but i agree she must have been on contraception. In Escape, Carolyn Jessop (Naomi’s stepmother) tells of one of her stepdaughters who was married to Rulon telling her that a lot of his younger wives were on birth control “for endometriosis”. And i have read that there were rumours about Warren and Naomi before Rulon’s death.

  207. “Fundy Moron maroon”

    Theres a box of those crayons in every house….

  208. Personally, I think Naomie has Warren by his cahones and is the one wielding all the power behind her puppet prophet. Her little move after Rulon’s death put her squarely in the driver’s seat.

  209. However she isnt his legal wife, so one wonders what life for her is like now amongst his 80 count em 80 stepmom wives collection, and her with no children to keep her company.

    Aint it creepy when you realize Naomi was Warrens stepmother?

    But hey, such things dont bother those fundy moron maroons.

  210. What does legal have to do with it? With anything they do, huh?

  211. Almost daily, I wonder how the Texas Supreme Court sleeps at night, after putting over 400 children back into a pedophile sex commune.

    At least the head pedo and most of his gang of merry men are in the Cellosteel kingdom.

    But still, there is no one ensuring those children arent still being molested.

  212. goodness

    Legal anything for that matter. I dont know of any other group that have been such scofflaws.

    Well, Jim Jones, but then he left the country.

    So did Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

    “Sannyasins were required to wear rubber gloves and condoms if they had sex, and to refrain from kissing, measures widely represented in the press as an extreme overreaction since condoms were not usually recommended for AIDS prevention at that stage.”

    See the pic of Bhagwans Rolls Royce drive by – by no means does the FLDS have a lock on crazy – think of those awesome flowing red robes people could wear.

    BTW Bhagwan has been dead for some time, after being kicked out of the US.

  213. hmmmm…Alvarado is just down the road from me…

  214. Does anyone recall the way law enforcements warrants went down on the YFZ Ranch? How after waiting for hours at the ranch entry for Bishop Merril Jessop to show up and, again the bishop lied about the ranch resident population to be 150+ in total number. The second served warrant the next day when the bishop, again misinformed the authorities that the ranch population was 250 residents. Tne actual resident number proved to be above 550+ and well over 400 children were in residence and unknown to be living there by law enforcement. That’s more children present than most summer camps would have as guests and their presence was a covert and secreted fact. The first YFZ warrant access was accompanied by two empty vans and later a fleet of buses would be needed to rescue the resident victims. The YFZ Raunch has been proven to be an actual ‘Felony Farm’ and the later staged sirade open house to the press corp has ended up being one of the biggest misinformation frauds conducted by a fanatical church sect to cover up the serial felonies. To date not one church leader, parent or chikd has reported or witnessed any crimes, regardless to the seven guilty verdicts to date.

    All the current YFZ Raunch residents request is to be left alone in peace to continue their, as of yet unrecanted, crime wave of felonies and organized covert activities.

  215. CAJim

    “Unrecanted crime wave”

    Indeed that is what disturbs me the most, and should disturb other Americans to that there are still hundreds of children forced to live behind the high fences of that pedo farm Zipper ranch.

    Whats our world coming to?

    Just glad that Texas is putting those pedo men in their cellosteel Kingdoms for a good long long long long time.

  216. Sorry. I meant ‘staged charade’ versus ‘staged sirade open house’; I need my first cup of coffee.

  217. Stamp that’s why my favorite crayola color is ‘FLDS Church Whitewash clear’, not one YFZ resident eyewitness to an entire string of crimes on their farm.

  218. He he!

    dont forget

    Brainwashed Muddy Brown

    At least they will be using CelloSteel Black a lot more than Pedo Pink.

  219. Just heard some really nasty news from the twin cities:

    Last Sunday, a week ago, there was a meeting where the sheeple were told to sit there and contemplate their faith and worthiness to the prophet, that if they had enough faith they would be able to hear Warren speak. After an hour he came on and told the people that he was alone, that he had to “handle” the presidency, Wendell, Merril, and Jim Oler. Also that there would be more to come. They were told that the parents in the Crik were not worthy to raise their children, the priesthood would have to.

    So I wonder what this means. The top dogs are OUT? Are all those children to be trafficked somewhere else without their parents? WTF!!!

    Am gravely concerned!!! Can’t say how absolutely true this is, but got it from a reliable source. Can anyone verify?

  220. My question, goodness!, would be “told by whom?”. “he came on?” what does that mean, he spoke over a phone, a recording, what?

    Very interesting. Either this is the beginning of a take over by someone else (Lyle?) that we have sort of been expecting, or Warren has finally gone completely psychotic as the prospect of spending his whole life in a Texas prison is becoming more real.

  221. That Texas court count was 5 to 4 to put the children back with the criminal parents and other adults. Shame on those FIVE. I believe they’d been told and they knew.

  222. One previous incident that preceded many of the events that have followed was the teenage party that happened just outside of Short Creek and involced 50+/- teens. Supposedly some drinking and drugs were present and Warren removed Aaronic priesthoods from all the boys present at the scene. I think the incident shook up ‘Warrant’ to access the Creeker’s children as having lost there fervency or devotion to him. The bishop prior to Lyle Jeffs being called was moved and demoted to a lesser rank, which again shows the serious degree that the prophet placed on the spiritual malaise of Short Creek members.

    The subsequent UEP Trust asset removals and scattering of the flock became the FLDS Church’s plans chosen by ‘Warrant’. Many of the sheeple still seem uniformed of the ‘Temple Builders’ agenda and how uninformed the majority of sect members were being left out of the new vision/revelation.

  223. Goodness, that seems a matter of real concern, thanks for bringing your understanding of whatever in hell that’s about.

  224. I assumed “told by” Lyle. Warren came on by phone. Heh! He was psychotic long before this!

  225. Live, phone, from jail at Big Lake? I’ve a notion about that if that is true.

  226. Please, GrannyToad, do tell!

  227. A jailhouse threat to have children taken from their parents in another state or two? Ahem.

  228. I need some kinda confirmation that this or anything close happened.

  229. My Cricker loved ones must surely be scared out of their wits! I haven’t been successful YET getting through to them.


  230. All the world’s a stage …

  231. I agree, Granny, it seems like someone in jail would have noticed. It’s possible, but it’s also possible someone is pulling our legs.

  232. No offense, goodness, but after three years of talking on the internet and finding out that people are not always what or who they pretend to be, I’m not going to believe or disbelieve what you are saying without some other corroboration. On the other hand, if this is true and this blog can be a point of communication between folks in and outside of the Creek, then I’m glad it’s here to serve that function.

  233. From RAWA, the Revolutionary Assn of Women of Afghanistan –
    Young woman stoned to death in Afghanistan when she runs away and resists becoming the polygamous wife of an older man

  234. Yah, can’t be havin’ those children all hauled off in no turnip truck. Or cheese truck. Whatever.

  235. I still cannot help wryly chuckling about duduhats who’d rather have kids off killing themselves working on heavy equipment or playing on atvs than riding safely inside any insured air conditioned baptist buses. Not to mention how cool it is inside those old brick army buildings at Ft Concho for folks wearing medieval layers of clothes for colder climates working out in Texas heat. The hill country is decidedly cooler and breezier with the trees, creeks, rivers, and altitude, ain’t it.

  236. No offense taken, but why do you think E.Texas asked those questions regarding phone call rules from Texas jails? ProudTexan replied she thought prisoners are allowed to use phone cards.

    Maybe there’s another crazy-arse meeting going on at the Crik now – one week later. I want some light to shine on whatever shenanigans are going on down there! I just know there are some scared folks who cannot say anything on here.

    Even though I have good sources, I’d like some other corroboration too. Where is E.Texas? Or iitmoc. Or long time gone?

    Maybe I should put a call through to Big Lake. I’d like to know if Warren can pull off that kind of crap!

  237. Rules for Texas prison system phone privileges for inmates. Calls are monitored.

    County jails have similar rules, including Big Lake and Schleicher County.

  238. I did hear the same thing. I’m working on it…

  239. I’ve heard that Wendell, Merril and Jim have lost their priesthood. That would explain why Wendell wasn’t at Warren’s hearing last Monday. Why John Wayman was writing a check with lots of zeros to Warren’s new attorney, who it appears will defend anyone with money.

    Sad thing for Wendell and Merril is that losing their priesthood doesn’t help them with their upcoming trials, but at least they’ll have a place to live and 3 meals a day in the Texas prison system.

  240. goodness, my mind is open to go any direction on this topic. Keep posting!

  241. Uncaduff posted that David Zitting was sent away to North Dakota last week, but did not say why.

  242. with regard to my statement above, the posting I referenced was on the Texas Polygamy blog.

  243. You would think that anyone who would/could tithe would be welcome.

  244. Betty that’s likely true but maybe the warrenites were having trouble getting their hands on the $

  245. I heard that David Zitting was exed when he gave the wrong answers

  246. disturbing news for sure. I will do some digging this week, see what I can find out as far a confirmation

  247. This is all about Warren and no one else.

    Everyone else is expendable.

  248. Warren knows where the gold’s buried mmm?

  249. “I heard that David Zitting was exed when he gave the wrong answers”

    Anon, what were the questions ??

  250. I wonder if they will enforce the new rules with force or violence. Sounds like this could get ugly. One man losing his family is one thing, the others can feel safe that it is not happening to them and renew their willingness to comply with the rules to keep it that way; a whole town in uproar and folks are apt to get angry. This sounds like a Jim Jones move to me.

  251. You mean Merril,Carolyn’s exhusband lost his priesthood?
    Hmmm, isn’t most of his gang at the YFZ. Wonder, how Betty, Carolyn’s daughter would live with those changes…
    Warren is just plain delusional.

  252. If someone loses their priesthood, don’t they lose their family and their home ?

  253. If Betty is smart, she will go to her Mother. Hopefully–she will see how crazy the weenie is? At least–I hope so???

  254. Absolutely true, S.

  255. jobo, how will she get out of the compound? There’s a gaurd tower and it’s a long walk to anywhere.

  256. Wonder why these people don’t wake-up? The weenie is crazy..what is it going to take for them to see that. Hey–just don’t answer the darn phone…what can he do–he’s behind bars??

    Of course..guess he would send out fat boy willie to take care of everyone. Even he needs to wake up and get a life.

  257. Hmmmmmmmmmm, wonder who all of Wendell and Merril’s wives will be assigned to.

  258. Jobo, haven’t you heard, Willie’s slimmed down. Lyle’s porkier than Willie now.

  259. True Betty–didn’t think about that…hmmm..suppose she could call her Mom? and Mom come get her? Guess I am grabbing at straws…they won’t let Carolyn within 10 miles of that place..

    No..seriously PT…willie is slim??? hmmmm…good for him…

  260. Gee…gotta get some things done so can watch the Super Bowl..hope nothing exciting happens while I’m gone…have to catch up later…

  261. Awr the wendell & merril thing is just the pauper game ya know. IMO. To keep from having to pay. BTW did Carolyn get anything yet for her children?

  262. S said: Anon, what were the questions ??

    It seems to me the questions answered wrongly might have been those iitmoc posted back in Discussion #44:

    But I’m open to hearing if there were others.

    Then there’s that ridiculous inventory long time gone mentioned earlier. For the love of Warren, give it all up!

  263. If the cult is over-doing it, they’re doing that to stop the sniffing into FLDS economics and causing them to pay their way. Even the big courtroom act of passing a check to Warren’s new attorney could have been staged, to that end. I don’t put anything past these crooks.

  264. David could have given a wrong response to who is father is for all I know, but it could also be about those warrants over the firehouse misappropriation of funds.

  265. Can’t have any small time thieves messing things up for the real professionals.

  266. Since Jim Oler is out now, who will now be running the FLDS fairytale up there in BC?

    Where are Jim, Merril and Wendell now?

    As for David Zitting, if he’s exed, why would he be sent to the Pringle compound? Is Pringle independent of Warren now?

    And I still want to know what was meant by telling the Crick parents they weren’t fit to raise their own children. Maybe a vile threat with intent to terrorize. Mean and Nasty!

    So many questions, too few answers.

  267. Nothing about Warren Jeffs and the jeffites has any meaning except $$, even over sex with ignorant underaged girls. So follow the money.

  268. I thought Pringle was in South Dakota. Up there you better have the extra heavy duty jesus jammies. Anyway, maybe David didn’t lose his Priesthood, just had to go off to the cold to think.

  269. There’s a pretty good picture of porker Lyle on the Eldorado Success site. It’s with the story “Jeffs’ third attorney”.

  270. damn. I hope this isn’t as serious as it sounds, I talked to my family the other day, and they didn’t sound like anything was up, but I didn’t ask any hard questions either…. dammit. this stuff just pisses me off so bad. they won’t tell me if shit’s going to hell.

  271. Well it’s nice to see that you’re still around, yehaaa6. I hope all is well with you.

    Hopefully this is just a rumor someone is starting just to see what happens with it.

  272. yehaaa

    Hope your parents are ok …. This is crazy stuff, I think its going downhill fast..

  273. texaspolygamy has reports Bill Shapely has been handled as well, (again?) and that Merril is nowhere to be found.

    Now that Wendell has been exed, who is the Presidente again?

  274. Same here, yehaaa6. They don’t talk to me about anything substantial. Just the weather, gardening and all kinds of health stuff. Hard questions don’t get answered. I can practically “hear” their keep sweet smiles on the phone.

    I’m really glad you responded here. I hope you’ll let us know if you hear anything. Like I remind my ‘in’ family: I’m here for you if you ever need me. Just say the word.

  275. During last weeks meeting where Warren spoke to the whole congregation, there was only John Wayman, Vaughn Taylor and Lyle on the stand.

    Warren told the people he was alone, that he had to “handle” the presidency – Wendell, Merril, Jim Oler – and that there would be more to come and that he needed all their support.

    Others that were “handled” were Lorin Holmes, Jim Cox (electrician), Wallace Jeffs (again).
    Also confirmed that David Zitting was sent to North Dakota.

    Note: I didn’t take issue with the fact that Pringle, is in SD, not ND. So I’m not sure if there is some place relevant to FLDS in North Dakota or if my source said North but meant South. Either way, apparently Mayor David Zitting had to leave his family behind.

  276. Still sounds to me more of bs houses of hiding to keep governmentS from tracking FLDS $$

  277. I’m thinking you are right granny!!!

  278. One theory is that Lyle is doing to Warren what Warren did to Rulon.

  279. What is Bill Shapley being handled for ?

  280. I wonder if Lyndsey is staying in Texas now.

    Wendell can’t just be removed from the Presidency without paperwork. Remember that some document was filed that dave him the title of the presidency of the corporation.

    Also, Lyle and Wayman must have driven like the wind after the meeting to make it to the courthouse by 9 on Monday. They were both there in the audience with John writing his check.

  281. Wind under wings maybe? Texas is rife with little airports and grass strips. I’ve little doubt there’s one out at YFZ.

  282. There’s not from the pilots pictures of the ranch. I’m betting they had someone drive them and they slept.

  283. I often wonder how they get from one place to the other so fast???

  284. Believe me it’s possible. The guys love to have driving assignments. Lot’s more interesting than construction work.

    On the other hand, a small plane could leave the CC airport and land at some airstrip short of destination San Angelo and be driven from there.

    Just thinkin’.

  285. Who do they have with a pilots license?

    I’m still betting on the driving route.

  286. Ahem. Look through that front gate. That works for landing, takeoffs.

  287. PT, maybe Jeremy Johnson ::snicker::

  288. Granny, helicopter yes, airplane no.

    Maybe the converted Jeremy.

  289. It’s about 16 hours of driving time from the crick to Angelo. If the meeting was over by 4 they could have made it easy.

    The scary thing is how quiet willies been.

  290. S said, What is Bill Shapley being handled for ?

    Warren doesn’t need a rational reason.

    What I wonder is whether all of this is being recorded somewhere, by Lyle (or whomever) á la Warren’s dictations.

  291. Wiley Willie… perhaps he’s being groomed to replace Wendell as FLDS President.

    Maybe that’s why he slimmed down – to fit Warren’s obsession with skinniness.

  292. Who in the he** is Vaughn Taylor?

  293. I would suggest that Willie’s time at the microphone has past. For one thing his credibility has a history and he was losing his audience with each conviction. Seems to me that Warren would want an attorney to speak in his behalf, ala Rodney Parkeresque. This may be thr role of the third attorney. Canadian pundits are calling for action from law enforcement based upon admitted wrong doings testified to in the polygamy refernce case, i.e. trafficking, illegal entry and deportations. Warren’s pending convictions seem to have unnerved his confidence and contiued control.

  294. Sounds like the Road Apples hit the Oscillating Fan in Fundywhoville!

  295. Doesn’t look like the Canadian Reference Case is going well for them…

  296. I think willie’s time is past. He’s pretty much become the laughing stock among the media.

  297. Bill Shapely got off to a bad start, stood at the gate and told the press how they roll, underage girls are fair game in their eyes

    (this said while there were hundreds of underage girls locked up in the ranch behind him)

  298. Interestingly, a Catholic news service is calling for the Canadian Supreme Court to uphold the current ban on polygamy, see – ‘Polygamy and Religious Freedom’ by an Australian priest Father John Flynn. It is revealing that closing arguments for this reference case on polygamy is not scheduled until the end of March, yet major publications are taking printed positions, in advance of any findings.

  299. Several person have commented on how various FLDS members travel between Hildale, UT/Colorado City, AZ. and Eldorado, TX YFZ. There is scheduled airline service between St. George ,UT and the outside world, and scheduled airline service to San Angelo, TX. It would be difficult if not impossible to make the trip in 4 hours, as service from St George, UT requires flight to larger hub airport like SLC, then flight to DFW and transfer to flight to San Angelo, TX.

    To make flight in 4 hours would require most likely charter flight direct to San Angelo, TX, they could fly from airport at Colorado City, AZ. Also there is an airport at Eldorado, TX that can handle most twin & single engine prop type aircraft. The San Angelo, TX airport can handle most jet aircraft.

    Both the San Angelo, TX and Eldorado, TX airports allow any licensed pilot to land and take off if they pay the landing & take off fees.

    Here’s more on Eldorado, TX airport:

  300. Several people have commented on phone call made by felonious profit Warren, bet the sheriff at Big Lake got a big laugh out of it, as all inmate phone calls are monitored, bet that Gregg Abbott got a chuckle when he heard Warren’s phone call too!

  301. So now, I gotta ask. Could it have been a hoax upon the peeps in CC to get/keep them in line. Someone PRETENDING to be der profit calling from jail??? How else to awe the faithful that they haven’t been forgotten and swept aside, while at the same time threatening them with the loss of their faith and children? Possible? Kinda risky, but then, I’d put nothin past some of these guys.

  302. Something Warren recorded before leaving Utah?

  303. Well, there’s that thought, also. Or recordings made while with a previous attorney and held [smuggled out?] for just the right moment…? Speculation can run wild. It’ll be interesting to hear more from those with family still inside and not [too] afraid to tell more.

  304. There’s a fleet of trucks in San Angelo and Hildale/CC, so shuttling riders between two points is a known practice. Cell phones are routinely taken away within prison confines and I recall the Jessop girl had one taken away from her when she was in CPS protective custody. Dale Evans Barlow failed to turn himself in and only reported to his probatioon officer the next day, in the midmorning. Maybe some more info will be revealed or brought out during ‘Warrants’ trial.

  305. Ditto on Cell phonesbeing a very common contraband item in jails and even prisons.

  306. If this is not some sort of perverted test perpetuated by Warren to determine the faithulness of the Crikers, and this info is true, the ramifications are beyond troubling. Could this be the reason for the new large building at YFZ – to house children from Short Creek?

  307. Cell phones would be hard to get to an inmate in county jail as they have glass between all visitors and the inmates. As for previous attorneys, I don’t see Fred helping smuggle something out and the new attorney was hired after the meeting. Lyle, Wayman, etc aren’t allowed to visit with Warren at the Courthouse, only his attorney, so it couldn’t have been done there.

    I’m guessing a splice job or a previous recording replayed.

  308. Actually, if a official/sanctioned call was made by ‘Warrant’ from Big Lake and then call forwarded to the Short Creek gathering, it may prove to have been a ‘live’ call-in. May have been pre-recorded and played back to appear to be live. I thought ‘Warrant’ was allowed family visitors at specified times and schedules. I think it was a ‘hoax’ caller.

  309. I guess an inmate could get luckier in a higher population county jail than some of those small outposts in west Texas dontchaknow.

  310. If Warren is in a county jail he could also make a collect call from the phones that are available to the inmates in most county jails. You can call out collect for 15 minute calls at a time. I know of more than one call being made one right after the other so he could have given at least 15 minutes of speak and possibly more before he would have been cut off. If he already knew what he wanted to say, it could have been very cut and dried, done in a flash! Either prerecorded by an accomplice and then played for his audience or live on the spot with phone connected to a loudspeaker so that all could hear.

  311. I wondering if the new H building is a “dorm” for children whose parents are found not worthy.

  312. A Texan, Short Creek is only 150 miles (2 hour drive) from Las Vegas airport that goes most everywhere.

  313. E. Texas – I enjoyed your humorous remark about Jeremy Johnson – (helicopter and airplane) pilot, ripoff artist, crook and thief.

  314. Maybe the ‘H’ building will be the newer Abajo Academy for trade school training. The curriculum would be to prepare tomorrows FLDS stalwart children for a brave new existence, educations in International Border Smuggling, Trafficking in Humanities, Travel Agents for Celestial Marriage of Minors, Under-the-Table Construction Crew Management and Advanced & Untraceable
    Medical/Church Records.

  315. Not to Angelo without a stop in Dallas. You could probably fly Southwest from Las Vegas to Midland and then drive the 1.5 hours to Angelo.

  316. Vaughn Taylor is one of the upper management at NEWERA, formerly Western Precision. I recall there was a story a few years back when he still lived in sandy, of one of his daughters running away to avoid being married to an old man. I seem to remember the Sandy police returned her to her home.

    Is there a photo of Vaughn, Lyle and John wayman in the courthouse?

  317. cant help but wonder if Wendell won’t make an attempt to garner his own following and start another split. He has loads of money, and a lot of people formerly from salt lake are enamored with him.

  318. I don’t think Vaughn has been at the courthouse. If you go to the Eldorado Success website and look at the story about Warren’s 3rd attorney you can see the new attorney, Lyle and John Wayman leaving the courthouse.

  319. Wendell’s older brother, Ivin, garnered a small following in SLC after the early 80’s split. Wendell’s probably changed a lot since I knew him. He was an avid follower in those days, but I’m sure he could take a few with him if he was inclined. He is or was very likable.

  320. Winston also took a fair number of those in Bountiful when he got booted by Warren – I dont recall the numbers though.

    Then there was the CP split. It seems this group divides like cancer cells.

    Merril is too old and feeble to lead any group. Wendell might keep him up in a motel room with PPV TV, though.

  321. I thought winston mostly took his family, wives and children

  322. Found this in wikipedia. Tend to think its something in the middle

    ‘Winston Blackmore is the leader of Canada’s largest polygamist group. For two decades, Blackmore was the Bishop of the Bountiful, British Columbia group of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS Church), a polygamist community in the Creston Valley.

    In September 2002, FLDS Church president Warren Jeffs excommunicated him. The community of Bountiful was split nearly in half—about 700 people continue to follow Blackmore, while about 500 follow Jeffs.”

  323. Socrates said… on texaspolygamy


    FLDS Church wins the Super Bowl of expulsions!!!

    Hundreds upon hundreds of their members expelled and still counting…

    Centennial Park congregation (The Priesthood Work)ZERO expulsions.

    Both of these communties used to be one congregation and the principle of “Love your neighbor as yourself” was practiced among them.

    The FLDS Church claims the name of Jesus Christ but has expelled the principle of His love. It has been exiled to repent from afar…

    2/07/2011 12:42 PM

  324. Chief Justice Robert Bauman has set 28 March, 2011 as the date for closing statements of the polygamy reference case in Canada. The proceeding will be televised, albeit with a 15 minute delay, via public and web cameras. This is expected to take two weeks and will be the first landmark case ruling on polygamy in over 100 years. Court findings and a final ruling are expected to take months to be formally adjudicated but calls to enact existing statutes, based upon witnesses testimonies of wrong doing, concerning sex trafficking, illegal residency, minimum wage standards violations and sexual age of consent infractions. Direct United States implications of failures to enact existing statutes, mild judicial rulings, inept elected officials and law enforcements inactions look to be reexamined.

  325. I’m fascinated by the census data of the FLDS. If you take the 2000 data from the Creek, compare that both to the US average and to what they found in the raid at YFZ, it’s very interesting.

    Here’s a few sites with us demographics:
    Here’s another with a similar story:

    The distribution by age is interesting. US percentage breaks down like this:
    19 and under: 28.6
    19 to 24: 6.7
    25 to 45: 30
    46-65: 22
    over 65: 12.7
    median age 37

    The distribution in Hildale in 2000 was:
    under age of 18 63.6
    18-25 8.8%
    25-45 18.4%
    45-64 6.3%
    over 65 2.8%
    median age 13

    There are almost twice the number of children under 18 in the Creek, but the number of young adults is about the same. What does this tell you? A large number, maybe half, of those under 18 leave, die or in some way fall off the radar screen of the census bureau.

    Also if you look at the distribution of males to females. In the creek it’s 94 males for every 100 females. But amongst adults, it’s 75 males for every 100 females. In the rest of the USA, it’s 97 males for every 100 females, and about 94 to 100 for adults. So, it’s obvious that more of those who leave Short Creek are males than females by a significant number.

    But then look at what was found at YFZ ranch. I’m having trouble finding statistics and am working from memory. Wiki, for instance, said there are 500 people living there, but there were 400+ children removed so that makes no sense. I recall a number of about 1000 residents at the time of the raid, of which 440 or so were under 18. I also recall a statement that there were just under 100 men. That means that the ratio of children to adults was lower than Short Creek’s, but still higher than the national average. But there if those numbers are correct, there were 4.6 adult females for every one adult male. And that’s not counting how many of the females under 18 were considered sexually available.

    You can make your own conclusions but I think they are pretty obvious. There are fewer males in Short Creek than in the rest of the US and there are fewer males at YFZ than in Short Creek. And he’s driving more away.

  326. Winston was not “expelled,” merely demoted. He hit the trail all on his own steam.

  327. Hmmm

    I remember him being excommunicated, and thats backed up in the articles I find online.

    I recall he went to the crick to meet and talk with Rulon, who held him in high regard (likely higher regard than his hanger on loser son Warren) but Warren had control over his father at the time and shooed him away.

    It well may be that he quit, but I cant find documentation on that.

  328. Betty

    Census data changes, the adult male population at YFZ is plunging, they are repenting from afar in their Cellosteel kingdoms.

  329. This website on Mormon fundamentalism states that Winston Blackmore was deposed by Warren Jeffs.

  330. If Warren excommunicates a couple dozen homies every time he gets a contraband cell phone, should we give him a sixpack?


    OK that wasnt nice, but I hope folks see the point. There are a lot of regular people in the group Warren could / would / IS harming, not just the leaders.

    It looks like Warren has performed properly as prophesised, as the Bull in the FLDS china shop.

  331. ‘Meager-in-Mind’ for your information Warren apostated Winston Blackmore over their strong disagreement on confessing intimate details between Winston and his plural wives in the bedroom. Winston today makes no bones about his position that Warren has no prophetic license and is a pretender and not a Seer/Revelator. Winston himself now heads a sect that has no spiritual leadership beyond his own bishopric, so behind closed doors he must proclaim his prophetship or his flock is without a spiritual shepherd.

  332. Such a bizarre fairytale world they play-like

  333. Say maybe we should legalize polygamy, so everyone can join in the fun?

  334. Or maybe not, Charlie Sheen is muscling in on Warren, and it isnt fun anymore like it used to be!

  335. I have read that back when the 1890 Manifesto was adopted that reticent believers that harbored doubts about ending polygamy took stock in the belief that, surely within 50 years time, that the ‘Gentiles’ would recant and realize the wrongs they had committed against the Work. This not only never came into realization but rather the strong opinions and resolute opposition has remained unchanged over more than 100+Years. Today efforts continue to rid the world of any vestige of polygyny, especially as practiced by Mormon Fundamentalist as a manifest evil and sinful lie. Abominations leave a permanent stain on mankinds relationship with the Almighty, similar to slavery or human sacrifices as a relic of barbasrism. Look to the Canadian Supreme Courts final ruling for this generations affirmation of right over wrong.

  336. Winston was given Bishop authority by his priesthood leader, Roy Johnson which was subsequently supported and nurtured by Rulon Jeffs after Uncle Roy passed away.

    Whether Winston was excommunicated or demoted or expelled is conjecture. Warren was designated as his ailing father’s mouthpiece and at the time Rulon talked to Winston on the phone, Warren was dictating almost everything his father said. Not only then but before the mass move from SLC to the Crick in ’98.

    Warren simply usurped his father’s calling and authority. As others have said, Uncle Rulon was “the last man” to hold the priesthood sealing “keys” — the authority of High Priest Apostle.

    More about the Winston breakaway can be read on the FLDS101 site, which is listed here on the Blogroll.
    Look halfway down the page.

    Also see Chapter Sixteen in Elissa Wall’s book, “Stolen Innocence”

  337. Maybe the motive for expelling men with legal entanglements is to leave the entire flds legal defense fund for warren.

  338. That’s my theory, chemist.

  339. This is interesting. The FBI is investigating the scientologists for slavery because they use their members for free labor and try to prevent them from leaving.

  340. Hugh’s post and those that copied and responded have been deleted.

  341. #

    Hugh’s post and those that copied and responded have been deleted.

    FLDS TEXAS said this on February 8, 2011 at 4:59 PM

    Just like ole Hugh’ to post such BS, he needs to crawl back into the cesspool from which came out of.

  342. I agree A Texan, he really should quit trying to post his nonsense.

  343. FLDS TEXAS, please check, ‘Candian Case Discussion’ postings by ‘jbash’. Thanx

  344. Will Do CAJim.

  345. I have been reading here for months, after studying the FLDS and mainstream Mormonism for the last year and have got to say something. Does anyone really think that “Uncle Rulon” held any “Priesthood Keys”? Doesn’t it seem that the whole lot of them is corrupt, or at least misguided?

  346. Heah, Modern Fharcee, WSJ is asleep in his cell, it’s almost suppertime, should the guard wake him up to see if he’s alive?

  347. My personal opinion is that none of them hold keys to anything but a cult and a scam Nikkig.


  348. My fav Unca’ Rulon prophecy was that the Great Salt Lake Valley was going to experience a mega-eathquake and Utah Lake and the Great Salt Lake would connect to one another. Since the Utah Lake is over 200 feet higher the flow would be from there into the Great Salt Lake, about 30 miles away, which describes the flow of a brook not a deluge. Pretty funny, but if everyone in the room has an 8th Grade Bible school graduation degree probably sounded very scary and worst yet it has not transpired and Rulon has expired. The earlier Prophet Leroy Johnson predicted that Hoover Dam would burst and flood Las Vegas. This is the better prediction because the deluge would need to flow upward since Las Vegas is 200 feet above Hoover Dam’s surface level.

  349. do anyone think, that Lyle will be the one that will end up taking over?

  350. The keys are lost in the sand, but maybe Lyle will find them first, doesnt he have a head start?

    It’s just that pesky reputation that makes him hard to swallow.

  351. CaJim

    Dont say it!

    Those guys had fake keys…!?!?

  352. Ignorance, willful ignorance, is pathetic.

  353. It will be difficult for Lyle to find keys that don’t exist.

  354. Nikkig:
    Does anyone really think that “Uncle Rulon” held any “Priesthood Keys”? Doesn’t it seem that the whole lot of them is corrupt, or at least misguided?


    It may very well be that “the whole lot of them is corrupt, or at least misguided but “corrupt” and “misguided” could be levied against all or most religious leaders and their followers depending on one’s perspective.

    The keyword in what you said is “anyone.” Depends on who you define as anyone. When anyone talks about “Priesthood Keys” on here, it’s from a Mormon/FLDS perspective, i.e., speaking from either being or having been inside an organization where that kind of language (indoctrination) is used and is part of their experience. It’s merely a way of speaking
    and meant to add to your understanding, as an interested reader.

    The mentioned “keys” are important when it comes to the overarching issue of whose right it is to rule or run these religious whatever-you-want-to-call-them: scams, cults, religious organizations, believers.

    Head Honcho-ness justification is the bottom-line for all religious organizations. “Priesthood keys” just happens to be part of Mormon tenets and canon to that end.

    This forum is interested in all things FLDS — and their current bad acts. Just because “Priesthood Keys” is mentioned doesn’t mean ex-FLDSers like myself believe in them anymore.

  355. CAJim:
    My fav Unca’ Rulon prophecy was that the Great Salt Lake Valley was going to experience a mega-eathquake
    [sic] and Utah Lake and the Great Salt Lake would connect to one another.

    That prophecy was given by Uncle Roy. If you heard it from Uncle Rulon, it would only be that he was repeating what Uncle Roy predicted earlier. You’re right about the rest of it.

  356. Etexas, thanks for the clarafication. You have been one of the posters I’ve been sure to read. I did not realize you are former FLDS though. All the best to you.


  358. CAJim:
    My fav Unca’ Rulon prophecy was that the Great Salt Lake Valley was going to experience a mega-eathquake [sic] and Utah Lake and the Great Salt Lake would connect to one another.

    That prophecy was given by Uncle Roy. If you heard it from Uncle Rulon, it would only be that he was repeating what Uncle Roy predicted earlier. You’re right about the rest of it.

    E.Texas said this on February 8, 2011 at 7:41 PM


  359. Ditto on all the best to E Texas. To that end, there are other good people still in. I think it might take time before the flowers bloom though.

  360. Long ago, I believed that the “keys” were held by Rulon, but then I got rid of that notion. This is old history, but there was a lot of disagreement in the 40’s and 50’s about the keys. Lorin wooley denied holding the keys when asked. He was called the keyholder by John Y Barlow and Joseph Musser, thus when they called the council consisting of Jeffs, Timpson, Johnson, et al, the majority assumed the keys were passed on.
    The CP crowd would contend that Rulon Jeffs lost his place when he supported the one man doctrine pushed as Roy Johnsons, (but greatly influenced by the Barlows in Colorado City), and the AUB would say they have the keys… It just goes on and on. I guess it depends on who’s line of bulls**T you buy.

    When people ask me what I believe now, I simply say I’m between religions 🙂

  361. BTW, in the early eightys, all the followers in the Salt Lake area were warned to move to the benches of the valleys, as the valley would be flooded by the Great Salt Lake and the low lying areas would be affected. Roy Johnson made this proclamation, shortly after kicking out the Hammons and TImpsons. I remember being told the water would be lapping at the second floor of the Salt Lake temple.

  362. Interesting.

    One thing I will note, though, all the FLDS money seems to have floated away….

  363. Wed, Feb 9th 12:00 AM Eastern

    HDNet World Report: The Economy of Polygamy; Inside the Crisis in Cairo; Viewfinder: Sanctuary Despite the conviction of their leader, the FLDS polygamist Mormon splinter group seems to be thriving. As they expand and build new compounds for their followers, we ask, where does their money come from? Next, correspondent Willem Marx has been on the ground in Cairo all week, as a once peaceful revolution has turned deadly. He introduces us to some ordinary Egyptians doing extraordinary things. Then, the latest in our “Mavericks” series: neuroscientist Jim Fallon studies what makes psychopaths tick, and through his research discovered some disturbing truths about his own brain

  364. Roy Johnson did NOT “kick out” the Hammons and Timpsons. Again, they were merely demoted and couldn’t take not being the top of the pile and went away to form their own “work.”

  365. You may think money floated away but although my earlier post was deleted I still say they’re operating as usual – free labor and mostly free materials and overhead – but the money route may differ.

  366. Me Again, long time gone was there. You may have been also and have your own opinion on what happened. Not only is it very rude to say, in effect, that he/she is wrong, but it is not a very effective means of communication. All it communicates is that you think you are the only authority on the subject, and it conveys that you think you are superior and can sit in judgement. If you want to convince people without raising conflict, you say something like “I remember it differently. I remember that at this event this was said and then that happened and then the other thing.” That allows people to hear all of what you are saying and give them the chance to weigh your memories against someone else’s. It allows them to decide for themselves that you are an expert rather than encouraging them to conclude instead that you are a jerk.

  367. Touche Betty!

  368. If someone is demoted, do they retain their church owned home and their wives ? Just curious.
    Maybe they “leave” when demoted because their home and their wives are theirs no longer…?

  369. Here is a piece on the “dismissal” of Marion Hammond

  370. Todays a very sunny day in Big Lake, got pretty cold last night dipped below 10 degrees, WSJ has arisen so either rumors of his demise have been greatly exaggerated or he’s been reincarnated. I am not sure which though, maybe Madman Pharcee can explain. Funny how rumors get started that attempt to distract and change the topics on this blog. Curious isn’t it? Why would a Crafty Carrion, Willful Madwacky and Moody Pharoah be so upset with a blogsite that now has over 600,000 postings, stayed focus on the Schleicher County Grand Jury Indictments, provide public records and courtroom documents? Jealousy, lousy logic, maniacal manhood, misplaced reasonings or just shear crankiness?

    Dunno and don’t care really.

  371. To my cherished FLDS relatives:

    You are individuals. You have human rights. You are NOT sheep to be herded into corrals without the rights and independent self-determination you (and all humans) are born with.

    Why do you cower in fear within those MAN-made corrals just waiting to be slaughtered if you happen to say or do some supposed wrong THING? Your captors have no authority and certainly no God-given right to steal freedom and independence from you unless you LET THEM. You suffer in that corral for nothing except one terrorizing fairytale built on another day after day, year after year.

    There is one simple word you need to utter: NO! That word is the key that will open the gate and set you free from man-made damnation and fear. Say it in unison with other captors and it fells the entire corral.

    Perhaps you feel you must suffer fear and tribulation in order to gain some reward. Perhaps you are telling yourself you are really not afraid. But if you believe God knows your heart, why should you think another human needs to know it more than you know it for yourself?

    And think about this: If you believe in what Joseph Smith taught, why are your captors not adhering to one of his most important teachings: “I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”

    Are you listening to a man who is today governing your very thoughts and your every move instead of allowing you to govern yourselves according to your own personal convictions? Are you not being dragged around on someone else’s tattererd coattails? Allowing yourself a little vulnerability with the larger world and society will neither kill nor damn you! It may test your personal strength just like it does all human beings, but that’s strictly between you and your god. Your god is far more forgiving than your modern-day captors.

    Please don’t give up your mind, your heart, your human rights to OTHERS WHO DO NOT KNOW your heart unless you blithely hand it to them. Your actions are and always will be up to you and you alone as responsible adults. That’s not scary; that’s freeing and all you have to do is exercise and believe in your own abilities to do the right thing, to do no harm and to protect your beloved children. Don’t let others mandate otherwise! YOU are being harmed because you allow it.

    Across the great divide, I love you still!

  372. Who is the “crafty carrion”?

  373. Last sentence, second paragraph should have been:
    “Say it in unison with other captives and it fells the entire corral.”

  374. beautiful – thanks goodness!

  375. A blogger of little noteworthiness and seems to have forgotten who he made ‘Weiner of the Year’ in 2009.

  376. To S. @ 11:13- That wasn’t the case at the time. His pride was injured terribly. As was Winston’s more recently.

  377. Do those rules apply to everyone here, Betty, or just to ones with whom you disagree?

  378. S, I believe the “crafty carrion” refers to a twit who goes by the monicker “Vulture”. He’s one of those “I don’t hide my identity so you can believe my wisdom.” smegheads.

    Did he ever post here, though? Just curious. 🙂

  379. It’s not the fact that I disagree with you that’s the problem, “Me Again”. From my observation, you are consistent in every single post with this sort of stance or statement. It’s not just an isolated instance; it’s your regular MO. Most everyone else who posts here regularly has their unpleasant moments, but over all plays nice. Even Alinusara10, who drives me crazy and I definitely don’t agree with him, he was basically civil and has never been banned anywhere that I know of. I have criticized several people here for specific posts and events. I’m not shy.

    And to answer your question, I think it’s good advice for everyone, me included. I don’t always follow my own advice, but I try to do so.

  380. Yes, Vulture has posted here. Not sure, but I think he was banned.

  381. Speaking of banning people, I am experimenting with trying to ban a repeat offender who keeps coming back under different logins. Unfortunately, the trap that has been set is catching some of the wrong posts. If you find your posts going into moderation, please do not take offense. Trying to monitor the situation and keep things flowing and on topic as well as possible. Maybe they will eventually give up and this will not be necessary. Thanks for your patience.

  382. Crafty Carrion stays perched on his limb, he knows better than to visit with eagles in the bright sunlight that’s true of his two cohorts. They choose to ignore convictions, a ‘One Man Rule’ crime spree, Canadian Supreme Court reference hearing and a covert theocracy within our Democracy. They choose to ignore evidence from the YFZ Raunch as illegally gotten even though those documents display how thoroughly rotten their collective position is mistaken.

    Last time Pharoah or Carrion posted here they lost so many feathers in the fracus they both had to walk home and they only driveby anymore.

  383. By the bye, the evidence from the YFZ Ranch has not, as of yet been challenged in anyway outside of Judge Walthers 51st. District. So their fantasy is still alive and the hearing held in Judge Walthers court had findings that all the YFZ Ranch documents are admissable. They can cry ‘Fowl’ all they want to but the trials, verdicts and convictions are amassing against their unfounded positions. The original claims of ‘Fishing Expedition’ and ‘Witch Hunt’ have been laid to rest and seven (7) convictions to date speaks with the greater authority.

  384. Goodness, I hope your family wakes up and smells the coffee soon.

  385. Let me join PT in encouraging Goodness in her family’s plight, your post is very heartfelt and hopeful. Doris Hanson at http/ had a Kingston group member so far this year that was interviewed and she has had enough and freed herself, so there is always HOPE.

  386. Me again: I suppose it’s a matter of perspective. I have heard the story both ways. Marion Hammon was certainly coaxed into forming another group by the likes of Clayne Wayman, though he never said a bad word about Roy Johnson.
    I grew up in a family on the Johnson side of the split, but when I left, I associated with the CP crowd for a while as well as various other offshoots, gathering various sides of the stories.
    I eventually came to the conclusion, that the whole fundamentalist and even mormon story was a bunch of garbage, though I respect those people who live their religion with conviction and honesty, and don’t harm their fellow humans.
    Every polygsmist clan I have been in contact with have people who believe they are doing Gods will, and live exemplary lives, however the leaders of the groups are all the same, focused on power, money and keen on a unquestioning flock. After all, every faction of fundamentalist mormon claim to be the only true priesthood

  387. Well said, ltg! Somehow I figured all that out without trying out all those other hooks. The bait looked the same to me too, and I just couldn’t bring myself to nibble.

  388. Goodness, how long have you been out?

  389. I left in ’84 after the one man rule imbroglio and before Uncle Roy passed away. And you?

  390. The original claims of ‘Fishing Expedition’ and ‘Witch Hunt’ have been laid to rest and seven (7) convictions to date speaks with the greater authority.
    Actually no, the original claims of ‘fishing expedition’ has not been laid to rest. As for ‘Witch hunt’ that’s a bit more iffy. I could use the argument that during the Salem witch trials they were convicted as well but I won’t since in this case it does appear that the state actually has evidence. The controversy is over the evidence collecting methods.

  391. What controversy, Alin?

    Alin, it’s over.

  392. Alin, you can argue whether or not the warrant was legal. But nobody is questioning the results. The DNA and it’s meaning are not in question. The marriage documents were not faked, nor were Jeff’s dictations. So there is no controversy over whether or not the perps did the deed. Getting off on a technicality, which has not yet happened, does not make you innocent, it makes you lucky. The prophet assigns under aged girls to old men who have his favor, and then they get the girls pregnant in a hurry. That’s obvious and unquestioned. Some of the girls had already had two husbands and several babies before they turned 18. The ratio of under aged mothers to legal age mothers in Bountiful is 40%. Fourty percent of ALL mothers, not 40% of the teens, Alin! Entered into court in Canada from official birth records! Accidental pregnant teens in Texas cannot keep up percentage wise with a deliberate program of sexual abuse of minors, no matter how many times Bill Medvecky says that they surpass them by using out dated information from the early days of the raid. Admit it. Own up.

    Don’t you think it’s odd that nobody has actually gone forward with an appeal? I wonder why that is? They are all stalling.

  393. The Canadian data is very compelling, especially with regard to the documentation of teenage births and the deficiencies in the educational system.

  394. They will not teach logical thinking or the fallacies in those polygamy schools. Ain’t gonna happen.

  395. The Bountiful School is not accredited for the 11th or 12th grade, yet we are told that about 50% of the “graduates” go to college or vocational school. There are no “graduates” with recognized, valid Canadian graduation certificates from that school. Other interesting fact : most children in the Bountiful School start dropping out in the seventh and eighth grade, leaving a very small pool of “graduates”

  396. Well Alin as to a ‘Fishing Expedition’ there is a stringer of seven (7) caught fish, so far and the hook is back in the water. The great victory of insufficient proof of any immediate risk or harm to the children, doomed dozens of children to be returned to the YFZ Felony Farm. You feel good about that? To date not one eyewitness in residence at the YFZ Ranch has testified to any wrong doing or crimes. Rather there has been an active campaign of innocence and persecution which the evidence, facts and findings simply don’t support.

    As to your ‘Witch Hunt’ analogy, agasin, the FLDS Church in 2005 in Arizona was indicted with 8 counts of sexual assault and accessory to sexual assault, 5 convictions, 3 dismissals because two witnesses recanted and one charge occurred in Canada. In 2005 the YFZ Ranch was the next hide-out and far from being some wild hysteria of a community it was an informed community that knew the YFZ Ranch was not going to become a hunting lodge nor be limited to a population of under 125 residents, even though both falsehoods were repeatedly given as the truth by FLDS Church. Eldorado elected officials, law enforcement and news souces were aware that the community had been envaded by a fanatical church sect with a fugitive leader and hidden agenda. Sorry, no ‘Witch Hunt’ and we’re still waiting for the libel lawsuits, class action lawsuit or appeal to a higher court. You do realize that the criminal investigations are continuing and future Grand Jury and additional felony crimes are on going. Stay tuned for ‘Warrants’ trial and the fuller scope of this crime spree will be presented.

  397. BnB of all the Canadian BC Vital Statistics do you find most concerning?

    1.) The data that 18 teen mothers have 2-3 children by the lawful marriage age of 18 years.

    2.) 833 Total births in an estimated community of 1,000 population, from 1992-2005.

    3.) 85 Total teen mother births under/at 18 years of age.

    4.) Over 10% of the Total birth is by teen females and represents over 3 times the Provincial averages.

    5.) Over 25+ teen mothers are US citizens and were not born in Canada (Trafficked Minors Over the Border)

    Which harm do you think best demonstrates a harm to an individuals right or freedom. For me it is the triple prenancy rate of a minor that unveils the real harm and denied right.

  398. CalJim, I read the numbers differently. There were 215 mothers, of which 85 were under the age of 18. That means 40% of the mothers were under age. Since the dates span from 1992 – 2005, the number of births by a teen female is not so meaningful. Only the age at first birth is meaningful; in 15 years time one mother could have birthed 10 children, and only 2 of them before she was 18.

  399. I just checked the status of the appeals from the trials and plea bargains.

    Emack has submitted his brief and the State has responded. He has filed a Motion for Extension of time to file his Reply Brief.

    Keate and Raymond Jessop have both finally filed their briefs, but only after the Court of Appeals put its foot down and told them to quit stalling and filing Motions for Extension.

    Lehi’s brief is due 2/28. He got the same kind of “put your foot down” treatment from the Court.

    Leroy Jessop got told to quit lying about being indigent which can be verified here: and get on with the filing of your appeal on your conviction. I’m not sure what the timetable is for his brief on his conviction appeal, but I’m sure there will be Motions to Extend Time on that aspect of his case.

    Abram Jeffs is still in the beginning stages of his appeal, with the record being due 2/18.

    Dutson still has a Motion for New Trial and Motion for Indigency pending in Schleicher County. He hasn’t been transferred to TDJC yet.

    Does this sound like people anxious to have their stuff heard by a higher court?

    Alin, Emack’s is strickly on the Search Warrant, since he plead “no contest” to the charges of sexual assault and bigamy and even his filing are delayed by Motions to Extend Time.

  400. All of the above are very disconcerting, CaJim, plus the info on the Bountiful School not being accredited to give valid Canadian completion certificates for grades 11 and 12, in addition to the VERY HIGH drop out rate beginning in grades 7 and 8. We are always told that women have a choice to engage in polygyny/”spiritual” marriage, but it isn’t much of a “choice” when the “choice” is made by a poorly educated teenager.

  401. The choice is a bunch of lip service. There is not choice in the FLDS.

  402. The choice is my way or the highway.

  403. Well BnB the FLDS Church attorney had an explanation for the drop-ots it could be do to four causes and not just stopping ones education, it coucld be do to having left the Province( this seems valid given the trafficking of minor ‘Child Brides’ to the US and the ‘Lost Boy’ shunning), or the cause might be from transfer to another Provincial school (Plausible but the tracking of such occurrences in my opinion will prove to be none or very little) and lastly the attorney actually referenced mortality as a cause which shows the level of desperation in his defensive argument.

  404. Yes Betty the 40% of Total mothers that have given birth is a eschewed value from anywhere near normal. Since these are Canadas numbers and data my startle is more over the 25+ teen mothers trafficked from the US because it hits us at home. How do the naysayers justify defending US Costitution Bill of Rights and know over 25 minor female American girls have lost 100% of the Bill of Rights by adult parents that condone these activities? The very same arguers over YFZ Ranch rescue of 1st & 4th Amendment rights or ‘Freedom of Religion’ fall mute on sex trafficking into Canada.

  405. Alin: Actually no, the original claims of ‘fishing expedition’ has not been laid to rest. As for ‘Witch hunt’ that’s a bit more iffy. I could use the argument that during the Salem witch trials they were convicted as well but I won’t since in this case it does appear that the state actually has evidence. The controversy is over the evidence collecting methods.


    On May 12–15, 2009, a hearing was held in Tom Green County, Texas regarding the constitutionality and legality of search warrants executed in April 2008 on the YFZ Ranch in Schleicher County, Texas. On October 2, 2009, Judge Barbara Walther issued a ruling denying a defense motion to suppress the evidence seized from the YFZ Ranch, stating:

    The court finds that Defendants’ offer of proof of deliberate falsehoods contained within the probable cause affidavits to support the two warrants is unsupported by credible evidence.

    So Alin, if the warrants were so egregiously in error, why hasn’t this ruling been overturned?

    The answer lies in “probable cause.” Law enforcement believed that children might be in danger of being sexually assaulted – and their beliefs were justified.

    It is NOT the fault of law enforcement, the judicial system, or Rozita Swinton that the FLDS ranch was raided – it was the fault of Warren Jeffs and his henchmen for using little girls like sexual trading cards.

    If you don’t want to do the time, then don’t do the crime.

  406. Over 50% of adult males at YFZ were indicted for criminal acts by Schleicher County Grand Jury. Some of those still haven’t gone to trial, 7 are already judged guilty and gone to prison.

    Diddle with that one, Al.

  407. Of those that weren’t indicted, most could have been. Bob Barlow for bigamy and giving his underage daughter in marriage. Isaac, Nephi, Lyle and Seth Jeffs for bigamy. Luke Jeffs (Sally’s son) for sexual abuse of a child. Jackson Jessop for sexual abuse of a child. Joseph Newel, Richard Samuel, David LaVar, James Jerry, William Sunderland, Jonathan Luke, Edson Porter Jr and David W. Jessop for bigamy. Keith Dutson Sr. for bigamy and sexual abuse of a child. Don Richter for bigamy. Edmund Lorin Barlow Allred for bigamy. Paul Barlow Allred for bigamy. Jacob H. Johnson for bigamy. Richard Jessop Barlow for bigamy.

    There were very few people there in monogamous relationships. Wendell Waymen Jeffs Nielsen, Fred Wayne Lindsay, Jr, Jacob Jessop Jr, Thomas James Cox, Dan B. Jessop, David Guy Musser Johnson, Merrill L. Keate, Joseph Steed Jessop, Nephi Merlin Barlow, and James F. Dockstader.

  408. Crimes committed in other states could not be prosecuted in Texas. Damn their eyes.

  409. Right about that Granny, if they could there would be more sexual abuse charges.

  410. Someone over on Mudpuppy’s blog is reporting that Willie got exed and they are asking if it was due to his association with Bile.

    Anonymous said…

    Did Willie get exed for hanging out with you? Was it because he forgot to tell you that the true believers don’t hang out with apostates? Come on Bill, tell us why Willie was exed.

    February 10, 2011 7:25 PM

    Must say, if it’s true, I must say, it’s about time.

  411. The Bum Rap of a ‘Hoax’ caller was never reported as a fact from any major news souce, it has been an oft stated rumor and battle cry of the FLDS members and their friends. No charges have been brought or made by the Texas Rangers or the Texas AG. Maybe more light will be shed on this topic during Warren Steed Jeffs trials, since they continue to proclaim a bogus caller let’s see their evidence. Minor children are involved in these sexual abuse charges and not all facts are ever made public.

  412. Maybe the “hoax caller” is entitled to whistleblower protections.

  413. If all these rumors are true, I bet that Mega H house is for the lucky man who is “Blessed” enough to have “God” assign him to take in all these massive, wayward families that will be left behind by the likes of Merrill, Wendall, etc.

    Either that or there are about to be a lot fewer single men.

    So are the Short Creek residents now expected to continue to generate babies and then turn them over to the priesthood as soon as they are toilet trained?

    I predict there will soon be a large FLDS boarding school or three that raises all FLDS children until they are 18. That would get them around the whole child bride thing, now wouldn’t it?

    Who watches over Warrens family, Naomi? Nah, probably one of his brothers.

  414. I’m guessing Isaac, Seth or Nephi Jeffs is in charge of Warren’s family.

    My bet is that the H building newly built on the YFZ is a dorm for girls. Little girls in the Crick are going to be taken from their parents and brought to the YFZ. At the first sign of development, they will be married off to a “worthy” man and a new young girl will be brought up from the Crick.

  415. Any crick readers have any clue if it’s true about willie? was he exed?

  416. Some posters have stated that ole Willie the Thug got exed, if so, it might be a big mistake on part of Warren the felonious profit! Since Willie the thug knows where all the bodies are buried, where the skeletons in the closet are located. He could go states evidence to protect himself, the ole CYA (cover your arse) effect. Just think if a exed angry Willie spills the beans on Warren and crew. Hope Gregg Abbott’s people can get to Willie and get him to sing like a canary.

  417. These recent expulsions have a precedent in the expulsions of several Barlow men and also four sons of Rulon Jeffs in 2004.

    Further information on the 2004 expusions is here:

  418. David Zitting is still listed as mayor on Hildales page at the Washington County website.

  419. I can’t say if Willie’s nixed but I never thought he would speak on ‘Warrants’ behalf. Willie has been sent away before and lived outside the FLDS membership, about 5 years, so he’s been there before and stayed mum. Remember Willie orinially swore that in his own personal experiences he knew of not one ‘Child Bride’ incident. Funny because even history records tha Joseph Smith, Jr. was sealed to teenage plural wives.

  420. One problem about polygamy is that the priesthood member, especially sealed to three (3) or more wives is the single most important income earner for those sister wives and childre. ‘Warrant’ with his war on ‘Gentile’ laws has lead many families into a disasterous set of circumstances. I predicted that many of these seperated wives will be reassigned to balance the legal impact of many longer imprisonments.

  421. Jim and I must be sharing a brain, he got the biggest half. But I was thinking I seem to recall Willie the Thug being kicked out before, same as Jim said, and bought his way back in running guns the way I picked up that rumor …

  422. cajm, @ 9:47 , good point! Joseph Smith certainly kept busy bedding every girl he could. Of course the LDS would like to bury that bit of info, and the FLDS use it to justify their actions…
    Crazy is as Crazy does.

    goodness, I have been out for 20 years or so

  423. Copy that, ltg. Guess I’ve got you beat by just a few years. 😉

  424. Wrong key too soon. That last was me.

    Got any more insights into the latest happenings, ltg?

  425. Spoke to a sister who is still in last night. She, of course, says everything is great. I find that I end up listening a lot, but she is so wrapped up in her little world, she rarely has anything to say of substance.
    Lyle is certainly a slime ball, as are Nephi, Seth and Isaac, his brothers. They are trying any tactic now in an attempt to flush out the hidden non-believers among them. It wouldn’t surprise me if Warren is losing his grip, and Lyle et al, is ready to step in. Maybe Lyle gave fat-Willie the boot.

  426. WSJ is not shy about ‘handling’ people and he controls all resources outside of the UEP Trust. Pony Springs, Newera, YFZ Ranch, Mancos, Pringle and Boutniful, BC (ample resources to defend himself and church interests). A compact set of enclaves, funds free of UEPTrust entanglements and more fervent members committed to WSJ is in place and a remnant large enough to weather the present crisis, only time will determine.

  427. Alinusara10, I am sending this message to you, “Me Again” and several others posting here, including “The Vulture”.

    Valentine’s Day is Monday. Let me be the first to wish you a Happy Valentine’s Day.

    Love Fred

  428. What happened to ZCX? who posted here? Probably could not abide having actual documents and facts instead of hyperbole. Also duane has been MIA for a long time. Fred’s happy valentine wish to both of them.

  429. Could be Willie the Liar/Thug’s unwilling to sign over all he has and ever will have to FLDS, so yah, he’s out.

  430. Could some current or ex FLDS member comment on how the leadership is chosen ? It isn’t clear to me.

  431. S. the means of succession for the FLDS Church were left in disarray by Rulon Jeffs. He proclaimed that he would be the last prophet to the ‘EndTime’ and his ‘One Man Rule’ was all that was needed, so not form of power transfer exists. ‘Warrant’ was able to get his father’s signature on some UEP Trust documents that changed the trust structure to where, in effect, WSJ is the inheritor of the UEP Trust in it’s entirety. Since WSJ became a federal fugitive and has been captured the Utah Courts have taken control of the UEP Trust and made additional changes that modifies the trust back into the hands of a controlling committee and administrator. ‘One Man Rule’ is the FLDS Church’s current form of leadership and it has no formal means of succession. I would guess that some remnant of previous leadership and election will need to be renewed to establish beyond ‘One Man Rule’ a succession.

  432. Warren was stupid to give it all away with arrogant “silence”. But I guess he figured he had enough hidden away.

  433. Well, my theory is that since Warren “inherited” the position from his father, one of his sons should get it next. Let’s see, we have Mosiah who Warren talks about in his dictation being on Zolof. He’s probably be as good a candidate as any.

  434. His son is on Zoloft ? How old is his child ?

  435. Born in 1989, so he’s 21 now, but this was in the dictations from 2003 or 2004.

  436. Too funny, a son named Zoloft that’s the commercial name for an antideprssant. Where is ‘Stamp’ this is just to rich of material to go unexploited. Isn’t Zoloft associated with complications with pregnancies? How could you name a son Zoloft Jeffs, sounds like he’s of Romanoff Royalty, like Commissar Zoloft of Short Creek. “Men gather around Commissar Zoloft has been sent by the Prophet to expound on the party teachings on blood atonement, Cains mark and the Adam-God tenet”. If ‘Warrant’ decides to shun Zoloft does he then become ‘ExYouZoloft of eXYZ Ranch? Too, funny.

  437. CAJim, his name’s Mosiah and he was taking the drug Zoloft.

  438. Well, Commissar Mosiah sounds much better, a tad more yiddish but that’s biblical, too. Oh, Mosiah, Mosiah Mosiah your daddy is such a Liah, po’ Mosiah.

  439. Someone needs to check and see who is sleeping with Naomie now?

    That is your new “profit”.

  440. Mosiah is pseudo hebrew; it’s a name from the book of mormon.

  441. Good thinking anon. I’m wondering if she’s in a rental in Big Lake.

  442. I’m getting the giggles trying to imagine a rental at Big Lake. Doublewide, furnished? BYO motorhome?

  443. I bet CAJim wishes there was an edit button…

  444. Big Lake is well, bigger than YFZ, population wise. Maybe even double?

  445. Now don’t be giving CAJim a hard time. If they can name a child “Spiritual Unity” they can certainly name a child “Zoloft”

  446. The new HDNet TV show in one of the YouTube videos above (the one with Isaac Wyler) will be re-run tomorrow (Saturday) morning at 11 AM EST.

    Sat, Feb 12th 11:00 AM

    HDNet World Report: The Economy of Polygamy; Inside the Crisis in Cairo; Viewfinder: Sanctuary

    You can check their web site to see if you get this channel – it is broadcasted on major cable and satellite networks.

  447. Who named their kid Spiritual Unity?

  448. Reading that Texas Court of Appeals’ order linked above regarding Leroy Jessop’s denial of indigence was really entertaining! He has almost mastered Warren’s “answer them nothing” technique.

  449. I would like to see what the incidence of Zoloft use is in Utah, broken down by zip code. That would be interesting.

  450. We already hear “around” about how FLDS chingalay on the jobs, not having to pay labor, taxes and insurance, get the inspectors out –OVERHEAD, like other contractors is a biggie competitively. gypsies ya know. A lot in common with Roma.

    I’d sure check on the concrete. Are there enough inspectors?

  451. S, periodically there are articles in the Salt Lake newspapers about how Utah ranks #1 nationwide for the most prescriptions of antidepressants.

    I don’t remember seeing the data broken down by zip code in these newspaper articles, although that does not mean it wasn’t in there.

    I know that the pharmaceutical companies buy that data (number of new Rx’s and refilled Rx’s by product class/product name/and market share by product class) based on zip code for the products they manufacture/sell and their competitive products.

    However, the data can be skewed because the numbers come from where the scripts were filled, not by the zip code where the prescriber is practicing. But it can be eye-opening in rural areas like Hildale (1 pharmacy) and maybe a dozen in the greater St. George metro area. It gets harder to figure out in large cities where a person may go to a doctor near where they live, but get the script filled near where they work (while on lunch break, etc.)

    Maybe you should do a Google search on Utah + antidepressants and see what you can find out (unless you know a pharmaceutical rep who works for Pfizer).

  452. One in five women in Utah is on antidepressants.

    If you Google Utah + antidepressants there are pages of articles.

  453. Zelph, we aren’t sure if there is actually a child named Spiritual Unity or SpitU for short. In her interview with CPS workers, Janet Jeffs Jessop said she had a daughter named Spiritual Unity, but the date she gave was the date she married Raymond. If there is such a child, it would be Janet’s child by Raymond’s brother Ernest. Warren exed Ernie and married Janet off to Raymond who then impregnated her while she was underage thus earning Raymond a prison sentence and fine.

    Come to think of it, Ernie must have breathed a sigh of relief that SpitU wasn’t found.

  454. I know that a large percentage of people in Utah are on antidepressants. I have never seen the data broken down by zip code. I do know Pfizer reps, I will discuss it with them the next time I see them.

  455. Heah far from wanting to edit my post ‘Zoloft’ here’s actual Mormon first names :
    Zem Saxon
    Antrim Zeezrom &

    So Zoloft is very nice medication, only.

  456. I think the goofy names are just another way of saddling children with the cult albatross.

    What better way to prove you are a certified koolaid drinker, than to name your children with some lousy name that they cant speak without getting laughs in open society?

  457. eh, around Utah and it’s surrounding states, book of Mormon names are as common as corn.

  458. Sooooo what are we NOT discussing? Let’s talk about abused women and children ok? Let’s discuss those men being sent to prisons in Texas for felony crimes against little girls. Let’s talk about generations being kept ignorant of basic educational princs.

  459. Right now, I just want to know whose other shoes are dropping at the Crick along with reasons why and any other mad activities and controversies there.

    Seems like things are pretty quiet around the ranch. But if Merril’s missing in action, I wonder who’s getting a shoe shine there.

  460. Here’s a news article on the subject of Wanda Barzee, the only woman that I know of to be convicted of polygamy related crimes. Appears that Utah’s parole board is considering parole, although as article points out that because she is in federal prison in Texas, she will remain in prison no matter what Utah’s parole board rules.

    Seems we are getting quite a motley crew of polygamists in prison here in Texas.,0,1132766.story

  461. And that’s another thing. Why are these women getting away with pimping their daughters to old married men without getting sent to prison?

  462. The practice of polygyny has been found to be linked to cervical cancer in women.

  463. Seriously S, I doubt any of the FLDS women get checked, so it would be advanced before it was ever detected.

  464. I can’t find any published data on the topic in that patient population.

  465. FLDS aren’t the only polygamists around. Probably what, about 10k total? 30K?

  466. 38-60 thousand –
    probably more Moslem polygynists in the US – same is true in Canada.

  467. Come on you all don’t think that the Kingston, Centennial Park, AUB or FLDS are going to allow any medical survey(s) or third party medical research to be performed on their respective groups. The Prophets/Leaders are not going to let damning information like that outside of their own private circles, in fact, I believe these groups behave more like and ostrich with it’s head stuck in the sand than a mutt trying to cover a pile of dirt on top of his dropings, it still smells but know one sees the secrets.

  468. There is a dearth of peer reviewed literature on the topic of Mormon fundamentalist polygyny. Islamic polygyny has been well studied and described in the literature.

  469. from S.:The practice of polygyny has been found to be linked to cervical cancer in women.

    Poor hygience among polygamous men has been identified as among contributors to cases of cervical cancer in women.
    The first sentence in the article is complete and total BS. HPV causes cervical cancer not lack of hygiene in men! 70% of Americans have been exposed to some strain of HPV and no, you can’t wash it off! Once someone has it no matter how “Clean” they are they will transfer it to other sexual partners. Of all the HPV strains only a few strains cause all cervical cancers.

    Yes, multiple partners will spread it, and swapping wives during “reassignments” will make it spread further. Women who are not checked regularly are prone to die from it. In its early stages of cancer a hysterectomy will save a life and stop the disease. Women need to get regualr checks to make sure it does not progress but, it grows very slowly. From turning into cancer to death is about 20 years.

    Women in this society needs health care and health education to protect themselves.

  470. Hygiene will not help, contrary to the assertion of the article, unless “hygiene” consists of using condoms. They may be using a euphenism for condoms here. Use of condoms will prevent transmission of HPV if used appropriately. Cervical cancer is predominantly from two strains of HPV – types 16 and 18. The more partners a woman has, or if her regular partner has more partners, the greater the risk of developing cervical cancer. Screening is easy with the Pap test. There are also other procedures other than hysterectomy to treat early cervical cancer.

  471. I could be wrong…
    but it seems to me that FLDS members would be relatively free of HPV.

    Since it is most commonly transmitted sexually, some FLDS members would have to come into sexual contact with infected persons outside their society — which I believe is extremely uncommon, though not unheard of in relatively rare instances.

    Since we’re talking about an extremely closed society, I think sexually transmitted HPV would prove to be rare. Even with all the reassigning of women to other men, we’re still addressing the issue within a closed society.

    If the FLDS were to allow a scientific study (extremely unlikely), my opinion is that HPV would not be proven a significant problem.

    But, as I said, I could be wrong — especially if I misunderstand the transmission factors for HPV-caused cervical cancer.

    My 2¢

  472. I tend to agree with E. Texas, but….

    If the women have no control over their sex partners and they are not allowed the use of condoms, then they have no control over prevention of this disease. All it would take is one man who is coloring outside the lines, for instance someone who travels for a living like construction or truck driving, and the women would have no defense.

    It seems to me that the FLDS in general have lowered life expectancy vs mainstream America, but that’s just a general impression from reading about people’s lives and I have no hard information to back it up.

  473. I have no hard evidence either, Betty, for a (possibly) general lowered life expectancy. The impression is not hard to come by given what we do know about a few lives. But if it IS true, I would put a huge percentage attribution on !STRESS! and the awful mind-body separation they have to live with.

    IMO stress is a major, bottom-line precursor to many diseases leading to death.

  474. FLDS seem generally not to care greatly what becomes of their cows past childbearing, when their wombs fall out, anyway. Men get run off as well if they’re not bringing in the $$ or any sort of perceived threat to the bulls in power.

  475. Poverty in general has a tendency to limit preventative health care measures and that can shorten life expectancy.

  476. Glad you got that off of your shoulders, fred. I hope you can sleep well now.

  477. Betty: All one has to do is make a supposition on another blog/site, then reference that supposition along with the corresponding URL and it is accepted as fact. Peer-reviewed even. All’s right in your world again. Yes??

  478. MA, it appears you don’t know the term “peer reviewed”. It is not just a pair of meaningless words.

  479. Most of us “gentiles” here, even the jews, have at least some college education, ME. Ours didn’t end at 5th grade.

  480. oeer reviewed meas that an article with supporting data was sent to a journal that specializes in that type of research. the editors then sent the article out to 3 or more different experts in that field of research. the experts ascertain to the best of their ability that the data is not fraudulent, that the methodology used is consistent with the standard practice of research in the field and that appropriate consideration has been given to prior literature, such that any novel or unexplained data is highlighted.

    after that the article is judged for its contribution in expanding the field of knowledge.

  481. sorry for the typos, i have an injury affecting my typing

  482. i believe i read somewhere that while the society is closed sexually within the female population, it is not so tightly closed for the male population.

    but i dont remember where i read this so it falls under the category of pure rumor

  483. Poverty in general has a tendency to limit preventative health care measures and that can shorten life expectancy.

    That is correct.

    The statement made by Betty above is supported by the peer reviewed literature.

  484. This MA like some others of its ilk feels that the discussion here are personal attack on herself, or her?? family and cult, when in fact the attacks are BY MA. It’s not helping its position by exhibiting ignorance and meanhearted bigotry.

    Still it is an additional and personalized example of all that is being lost for these fundies.

  485. Actually, GT, I do know very well.

  486. Here is a peer reviewed article on the association of cervical cancer with polygyny in Africa among those of the Islamic faith, for anyone interested. The abstract is provided.

  487. I sure you think you do, MA, you told us how you’d post something on a site then refer to it as having been “peer reviewed”.

  488. Another peer reviewed article on the association of polygyny and cervical cancer –

  489. Sorry here is the article –

  490. extract from the article posted above –

    “Polygamy is reported to increase the risk of cervical cancer two-fold and the risk increases with increasing number of wives”

  491. from National Library of Medicine – an article on the association between cervical cancer and underage marriage for girls

  492. GT, I don’t personally believe that for my own discussions. I didn’t mean to suggest that it is appropriate for any serious discussion or college level work. It’s just that wild accusations and suppositoins seem to be sufficient for most posters here. (I was being facetious) The objections I make on this blog are in regards to the methods which are used to demonize people most of you don’t understand.

    And you call Me ignorant and meanhearted.

    BTW, I agree with a lot of your personal opinions as to the practices within the flds. But these need to be stated as opinions rather than facts. Not everyone is guilty of everything their neighbors do.

    Again,you try to demean me by alluding to the possibility of my not having been educated. Nice try.

  493. S;
    Please. Do not confuse polygamy (or plygany, with an “n” as you do dishonestly) with extramarital relationships in the third world, and/or feminine hygiene. This entire argument is disingenuous at best. It’s not “polygamy” but rather promiscuity that is the problem here.

  494. Well help me to understand old Me again how the sister wives could hold a press conference at the YFZ Ranch immediately after the 2008 YFZ Ranch Rescue and refute than any ‘Child Brides’ existed within their communities? How come no one from the YFZ Raunch has ever come forward with an eye=witness account of any wrong doing or first hand knowledge of a pregnant teenage girl, even though seven(7) guilty verdicts have been amassed? Explain how this is possible for us all to grasp since the obvious posture of ‘Answer Them Nothing’ is so misunderstood.

    I am all ears, oh please, explain the 100% falsehood, lying replete and oneness of defending parental duplicity for our entire Nation to witness and have seared into our collective consciences. Or did I not hear or did we not see for ourselves? Help us all to “Keep Sweet” on the truth and stand in Oneness with the blessed profit.

  495. I reject the idea that one can only have opinions about flds practices. There are many flds practices that rise to the level of facts. The flds practice polygamy, Fact. Granted not every flds man has multiple wives, but many flds men do have multiple wives. The names of many of these men are known, Fact. Some flds men, names are known, have “married” and had intercourse with girls under the age of consent. Fact. Several flds men have been expelled/excommunicated and had their families assigned to other flds men. This is a fact. I could go on, but it is evident that people who are not, and have never been part of the flds have material that allows them to know many facts about the flds.

    Polygamy is illegal in the US. Fact. Marriage and intercourse under the age of consent is a fact. Some flds practices are illegal. FACT

  496. Me Again, no, that is not what peer reviewed means. Maybe you should read up about the scientific process. I’m sure there’s something helpful on Wikipedia.

  497. Me again, you are making a straw man argument. I said quite clearly that my intuition about a shortened life expectancy were not facts, but feelings and impressions. That makes it pure speculation honestly presented as such. So attacking me on the fact that I have no facts when I clearly stated that I had no facts is to attack a theory that was never proposed by anyone but yourself. That’s called a straw man argument and it’s a fallacy.

  498. Polygamy is the practice of having more than one spouse, not gender specific. Polygyny is the practice of a man having more than one wife. There is nothing dishonest in what S. said, she is quite precise in her word choice. Any person who has had sex with someone who is infected can carry the disease, whether or not that sexual contact was within the legal or religiously sanctioned marriage. The practice of reassigning the wives of an ‘unworthy’ man to a priesthood man does call into question in my mind how free those women might be of disease. If the ‘unworthy’ man has been promiscuous, then the faithful, obedient and non-promiscuous wife can be infected, and die, while the man is not affected. He can also infect his other wives.

  499. blogogre,

    2 points for a double (triple?) slam.

    1. you assume that “s” is falsely representing the articles.
    2. you assume that polygamy in third world countries is really promiscuity.
    3. the inference would be somewhat racist as most of the third world countries in which there is a prevalence of polygamy are african and arabic.

  500. Well said, Betty.

  501. “Please. Do not confuse polygamy (or plygany, with an “n” as you do dishonestly)”

    No, “polygyny” is the honest and accurate term for one man with multiple females which the FLDS practice. Speaking of “dishonesty”, don’t you think it’s a tad dishonest to accuse something when you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about?

    “with extramarital relationships in the third world, and/or feminine hygiene.”

    Why would you consider polygyny in the third world “extramarital”? And the article spoke of “hygiene” issues and did not specify male or female. In fact, male hygiene is most often the issue as they are the ones flitting from female to female.

    “This entire argument is disingenuous at best.”

    It’s not an “argument” it was an article about a serious medical health issue for women in polygynous relationships. It’s even more serious since women in these situations, just like in the FLDS, have no real say over what happens with their bodies. They are at the mercy of men and when men do not practice proper hygiene the women are at risk. And all it takes is ONE man bringing HPV into the FLDS and all the women their will be at great risk. Because they aren’t allowed to say “no”. They aren’t allowed to even grow up enough to say “no”. They aren’t allowed to say “I want you to use a condom — you’ve been with other women.” It’s really sad. What’s disengenuous is someone like you whining about a finger pointing out the risk to women.

    “It’s not “polygamy” but rather promiscuity that is the problem here.”

    And the difference between “polygamy” and “promiscuity” is, what? Oh wait, I know — it’s 13, 14, 15 year old girls being told that God insists that they “marry” some man and have sex with him. Generally that’s only found in “polygamy”.

  502. Blogogre,

    I go out to a French restaurant for a few hours for Valentine’s Day and return here to find that you have called me disingenuous ? Care to tell me how many African immigrant polygynous wives you’ve treated ? Do you know anything about Islamic polygyny, which is the predominant form of polygamy practiced in the US and the world ?

    I am not being disingenuous. The practice of polygamy in Africa is not polyandry and it is not polyamory. The practice of polygamy in Africa is Islamic polygyny, wherein one man may have up to 4 wives, but a woman may only have one husband (shared). If an African polygamous wife attempts to take a lover, she will shortly find herself a victim of honor violence or female genital mutilation. In West Africa, up to 50% of marriages are polygynous. If you practice medicine in a neighborhood with African immigrants in NYC, you will meet African polygynous wives. In Africa, polygyny has been found to be a risk factor for HIV infection and cervical cancer. Now a similar association is being described in Malaysia.

  503. The ‘argument’ that not all FLDS practice the criminals acts is a phony. Lying for their lord doesn’t cut it. If you know a child is being sexually abused and turn your face from the child keeping your mouth shut you are complicit in the crime. Lie on television why dontcha. You cannot live under the same roofs and not know for generations.

  504. Hello,…..Me Again, please, explain the YFZ Raunch sister wives Open House Lie-In to me. I would hate to misunderstand them, judge them unfairly or find their credibility to be zero. Rodney Parker was on one of the ‘truth’ interview panels and after several sister wives assured the audience that no teen pregnancies were fact, Rodney off camera chimed in by sayin,”It never happened” Huh??? What?? How so? Even the paid third party attorney for the FLDS Church perpetuated the lying.

  505. blogogre

    “It’s not “polygamy” but rather promiscuity that is the problem here.”

    By definition, polygamy is promiscuity in action.

    2: not restricted to one class, sort, or “person”.

    In example, Warrens shuffling of families greatly increases the spread of any diseases that may be present.

    Also as one recalls, members are often truck drivers and have access to all sorts of diseases while out on the road.

    I recall Warrens brother was caught in a sex act while driving and delivering money to said FBI fugitive Warren, even paying for it with some of that tithe money.

    And Warren was said to have carried on an affair with at least one of his step mothers before his father died – after his father died, he then married most of them, except those who couldnt stand him.

    So the FLDS puts out their own brand of promiscuity that just makes you want to vomit…

  506. Most of the posters here do not understand the flds culture the way flds members do. Most of the posters here do not understand the culture of organized crime families. However, in both cases most everyone can understand the illegal acts of these groups. Law abiding Americans can and should call for and support LE investigations of any group or culture that pracrtices illegal acts.

  507. Let’s begin going through YOUR neighborhoods and see what we find. I’m guessing some illegal acts will come to light to justify the action.

  508. CAJim, Why are you attacking me for something they chose to do. I’m not in a position to answer for them. I’m sure that some of them deserve your poor opinion.

  509. “I recall Warrens brother was caught in a sex act while driving and delivering money’

    It is exactly this type of behavior – sexual contact with outsiders or prostitutes outside the group – which introduces HPV into a closed population and transmits the virus to innocent, loyal and unsuspecting plural wives. The unsuspecting plural wives then are potentially “reassigned” when the leaders of the group learn of the male member’s indiscretion. The “reassigned” infected women then transmit the virus to their new husbands, and these men then transmit the virus to their other plural wives – and the cycle continues…If this is observed in Islamic polygyny, I would imagine it could possibly be seen in other polygamous groups.

  510. me again

    we DO have individual illegal behavior and, for the most part, our legal system deals with such behavior the best that it can, with, lapses

    we DO NOT live in communities that enforce illegal behavior such as
    predation on young children
    withholding education
    abandonment of children
    tax evasion thru a pyramid scheme
    non payment of rents
    re-training/re-education locations
    failure to report sexual abuse

    all of which are DOCUMENTED within the flds community

  511. Me Again

    No one ever said the FLDS or polygamists were the only sinners and criminals.

    You cannot hide criminal behavior behind religion… Thats why polygamy will never be legalized.

  512. “Within” being the key word, hhg. The method that was used to gain the evidence is suspect at best. Are you willing to sacrifice the laws that have been established to protect individuals or…

    I know that what was thought to be happening to some of these girls is reprehensible. But let’s use the legal system as it was designed. Or we’ll lose it altogether along with any convictions that leave walthers’ court for another.

  513. Me Again,
    I think that the average FLDS member is an honest, family oriented, sincere person who is looking to please God, and if pleasing God means obedience to the hierarchy of their church, so be it. I say this after having met a few ex FLDS members at a screening of “The Sons of Perdition.” The problem is with the hierarchy of the FLDS church and the One Man Rule Doctrine – because “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” The FLDS church hierarchy is not the only religious organization where one identifies the association between absolute power and abuse / corruption. As an ex Catholic, I would offer that the history of the Roman Catholic Church in medieval Europe is another example of abuse of authority in the guise of religion. I would think that in times where there was a ruling council of elders over the FLDS rather than “one man rule” in charge that things were a bit more open, less corrupt,and less oppressive.

  514. > 500 comments – time for a new string, FLDS Texas.

  515. “Let’s begin going through YOUR neighborhoods and see what we find. I’m guessing some illegal acts will come to light to justify the action.”

    The police “go through” my neighborhood every time they have cause. Oddly enough, when the catch someone breaking the law that person can’t hide behind “Well, God told me to…”.

    ““Within” being the key word, hhg. The method that was used to gain the evidence is suspect at best. Are you willing to sacrifice the laws that have been established to protect individuals or…”

    There is no law that has ever been established that permits a religion to sanction and enforce the sexual assault of underage girls. The fact that the girl who made those calls has not been positively identified is besides the point. The reality is that girls who fit her description — particularly in being in underage and illegal “marriages” were found. These girls need to be protected in a just society. In fact, it’s past time this country cracked down on “homeschooling” and “private” school regulations to ensure these children are receiving a complete education that allows them to make informed choices when they reach the age of 18. NO law should allow anyone to hide away children and abuse them.

    “I know that what was thought to be happening to some of these girls is reprehensible.”

    It wasn’t “thought” to be happening. It WAS happening. The evidence on that fact is irrefutable.

    “But let’s use the legal system as it was designed. Or we’ll lose it altogether along with any convictions that leave walthers’ court for another.”

    It was designed to allow appeals therefor it is being used as it was designed. Funny how in your book protection in the law is only supposed to be for the men. What about the women? What about the girls removed from school, married and impregnated too young? What about the boys abandoned, expelled, put to work and denied an education? Where are THEIR protections under the law?

    Oh yeah — they’re getting them in Texas.

  516. Please continue on General Discussion #48 – Thanks

    — Admin

  517. Me again, thanks for answering my question about the YFZ Ranch Open House Lie-In. I won’t hold you here to defend the indefenseable but you demonstrate that you rather than I do not fully understand. You need to research the Temple in Mormon history, especially as it would be placed back into practice in the hands of orthodox believers behind closed fences on their gulag. I would refer you to author JH Beadle’s book written in the 1870s called “Polygamy; and other Mormon Crimes”. What I am referring to in the Temple teachings and practices raised a furor back in Beadle’s day. In the endowment teachings and practices the 3rd and 4th Estates which were higher rankings of the priesthood from 2nd Degree Aaronic to 1st Degree Melchisedek required certain pledges and allegiances, in order to elevate yourself within the priesthood. Beadle was able to reveal that one pledge included a pledge to take vengeance on the ‘Gentiles’ for the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. Secondly, in order to rise up to the Melchisedek level you had to recant your allegiance to the US and put yourself at the behest of the Prophet.

    I am not attacking the Latter Day Saints of today by discussing this history, these practices are no longer a part of modern day LDS Mormon Temple practices.

    Me Again when you see the Fundamentalist’s building their Temple you have to be forewarned that these practices used to exist within the Temple and would be resurrected within the YFZ Ranch and probably have always been preserved within fundy tenets. I am all for religious freedom but sedtition against the US or a pledge to commit a felony if the opportunity presents itself I would place into a cult teaching and not a religious meaning.

    Well there it is Me Again, check it out for yourself or don’t believe it and call us misinformed but I submit here that you are the naive one and not me. If you want additional information research ‘Danites’, blood atonement and Meadow Mountain Massacre to see if these pledges were ever manifested.

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