General Discussion #46

Continued from General Discussion #45

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on January 15, 2011.

591 Responses to “General Discussion #46”

  1. Good Morning, FLDS Texas !

  2. Good morning S!

    Interesting reading lately!

    From books to baby abuse… It makes one think that if the children had books to read, they would be quiet.. however, with todays TV, I know thats an outdated concept.

    So at YFZ and probably the creek too, these young minds are kept from toys, TV, books, radio, internet… But I suppose they can go outside and play when its 20 degrees in the winter, or 110 in the summer.

  3. I hope that they get that library in Colorado City. What’s blocking it ?

  4. Good morning S and FLDS Texas !

  5. The news article about the library proposal said:

    “Tyler said there are funds available to operate a library including utilities, book cases and hiring a librarian. She is trying to get the issue put back on the supervisor agenda possibly by today’s board meeting.”

    I’d like to know if the issue did get on the agenda (Jan 10th) and if so, with what result.

  6. Thanks E. Texas, and good morning!

  7. Does anyone know how long Winston Blackmore’s Share the Light page and blog have been down? Not just inactive, but no longer accessable.

    And does he have a new site?

  8. Melissa,
    I didn’t notice that. I will check

  9. Blacknore pulled in his horns in Canada and is no longer going to tell his tall tales to the court too?

    I suspect these prophet types saw the handwriting on the wall.

    People are fed up with pedos!

  10. Did anyone see this ? The State of Texas is introducing some new legislation to ban religious or cultural law –

    Texas: Resolution to ban ‘religious or cultural law’
    Posted on January 15, 2011 from Creeping Sharia blog

    Texas Rep. Berman files resolution to ban ‘religious or cultural law’ | The American Independent.

    Mimicking proposed legislation in several other states, Rep. Leo Berman (R-Tyler) suggested a constitutional amendment prohibiting Texas courts from enforcing, considering or applying religious or cultural law. Though the joint resolution itself does not specify ‘Sharia Law’ ­­­– the practices governing Muslim life, including family, work and religion – it falls under the umbrella of banned rules.

    “A lot of federal courts are referring to international courts and laws of other countries. We want to make sure our courts are not doing this, especially in regards to cultural laws,” Berman said. “If that includes Sharia law, then so be it.”

  11. Melissa,
    Blackmore’s “Share the Light” and “North Star” have both vanished.
    He and James Oler are both refusing to participate in the reference case.

  12. They got their day in court and now boycott it?

    HmmmmKay, keep polygamy illegal!

  13. Say, doesnt Blackmore still owe millions in taxes?

    He is a real scofflaw renaissance man! Just like his homie Warren!

  14. A ban on religious or cultural law overriding Texas and Constitutional law gets my approval!

  15. Warren likely thought much of Brigham Young.

    They didnt nickname him “Bringem Young” fer nothin’!!

    Here are just a few of his appx 55 wives, along with his age at time of the official “LDS marriage” to the children.

    ————————–

    Clarissa Caroline Decker (1828–1889) (aged 15) Brigham was 42

    Elizabeth Fairchild (1828–1910) (aged 16) Brigham was 43

    Ellen Rockwood (1829–1866) (aged 16) Brigham was 44

    Mary Ann Turley (1827–1904) (aged 18)Brigham was 44

    Lucy Bigelow (1830–1905) (aged 16) Brigham was 45

  16. E. Texas, the Monday, January 10th Mohave County Board of Supervisors meeting was canceled and the meeting date was changed to Tuesday, January 18th. The Colorado City Public Library issue is not on the agenda.

    However, the Colorado City Fire District is on the agenda –
    “22. Declare the Colorado City Fire District reorganized as a fire district administered by a five member board with the following elected board members: Lyndon R. Bistline, Sr., Anthus Barlow, Vergel Steed, Ron Steed and Karen Jessop; as a result of the election held November 2, 2010.”

    I wonder if the CCFD will stop using public funds to buy sewing machines, sofas, baby clothes, expensive chocolates, etc. now that it is “reorganized”?

  17. The Mohave County Board of Supervisors actually have a LOT of power!

    http://www.co.mohave.az.us/ContentPage.aspx?id=161

  18. Bunch of thieves and liars.

    Liars lie, thieves steal.

  19. LOL……so Young is now on the radar for young brides. It is interesting to note that the age for marraige was observed in Youngs day and that even in Texas 14 was legal before the FLDS religion was “targeted”
    How old was your granny when she married? For that matter how old are the teens that drop babies today. Here is a hint. Teens Teens Teens and San Angelo has quite a bevy of pregos yet still CPS thinks 27 qualifies as a teenager .

  20. Thanks and duly noted, Anon. 11:33
    ——–

    To your question regarding the CCFD, it should come under much stricter oversight and scrutiny via regular 3rd-party audits. I’d even advocate the word “surprise” in there.

  21. So if a mom of 27 CHOSE to go along with her infant then IDIOTS like the one above can label her a “teen” to prove they’re idiocy. Can’t be helped I don’t suppose. But as I wrote: liars lie.

  22. Seems to me both my grandmothers were over 18 but then genealogy is a hobby of mine. One of my grandfathers was born 1864, how’s that for ya?

  23. ZXC the common age of marriage in my grandmother’s day was 21 – 25. I know because I asked her (she’s 95 this year). I also did some research and it appears that 21 – 25 has been the common age of marriage for several centuries now and marriages under the age of 18 were generally considered rather “low class”. In fact menses rarely occured before the age of 16 back in Brigham’s day. So your comment, in addition to being an appeal to popularity logcial fallacy, is disengenuous in the extreme. You really are a sad excuse for an apologist.

    Oh, and my grandmother was 21, her mother was 22, my mother was 21 and my mother’s mother was 18, popped out 8 kids, became an alcoholic, abandoned the kids and in general screwed up her family (granted her husband, my grandfather, didn’t help in the least).

    Feel better now? I think you’ll find the “how old was your grandmother when she married” ploy only works with Utahns who followed Brigham’s policy of lock ’em down with babies young. But Utahn experiences don’t match those of the rest of the world. It is merely an example, as is the middle east, of the drawbacks of living in a theocracy — particularly for the vulnerable, like women and children.

  24. As to 14 in Texas. Dumas forgot to say that was with parent’s agreement on record at the courthouse and with judge’s approval. NONE of which is anything FLDS would do.

    Liars lie.

  25. 14 was likely acceptable in KY and OK too.

  26. In each of those noted instances, Brigham was old enough to be the father of those girls. I’m sure he didnt date around, but was offered or told the parents he had a taste.

  27. Marriage ages change over time. What WAS acceptable then, isn’t always in modern times. I remember reading once that girls married ‘young’ for several reasons…life spans were much shorter and they were considered ‘dead weight’ on [some] families and so you married them off to be someone elses responsibility. Women and girls have been [and still are] undervalued for centuries. Some cultures adapted, others still cling to the old ways for a variey of reasons. ANY way you look at it, IMHO, marrying at 12-17 is way too young. Just because ‘it was always done that way’ does not make it right or reasonable.

  28. Well, my paternal grandparents were 29 and 25 when they married in the early 1900s. My maternal grandparents were 27 and 24. Of course, the age at which people were married over 100 years ago has absolutely no bearing on whether the underage marriages by the flds should be tolerated. Just another way to divert attention and to try to excuse the criminal activity of the flds in current time.

  29. Slavery used to be (and still is in many places) common and acceptable. I vote we go back to those good old days!

  30. And I!! get to decide who is slave material.

  31. My grandmother was 33 when she got married to my 30 year old grandfather in the early 1930’s.
    Keep in mind that many fundamentalist groups (not just FLDS, this applies to other groups, like the Quiverful Baptists) encourage marriage as well as childbirth at young ages for the girls. Given that the American Academy of Obstetrics and Gynecology advises against pregnancy in girls < 18 years of age based upon medical research, it is not advisable to set the age of consent for marriage at an age < 18.

  32. “…so you married them off to be someone elses [sic] responsibility.”

    Perhaps it’s been said here before (maybe even by me?) that the above from mc1199 is particularly true within the FLDS, and probably in every other religion-based polygamous group.

    Teenagers will be teenagers even (if not especially) in the FLDS. Raging hormones fueling imaginative minds is a perfect recipe and most FLDS teens go through it too.

    Just one scenario: boys and girls are more often than not, sick of being in chaotic parental families. They start acting out, testing their limits, their innate sense of individuality – in other words, rebelling in quite typical teen fashion in all kinds of ways – IN SPITE of their lifelong indoctrination.

    Remedy? Save the girls – marry them off – and let the boys go.

    The parents save face for their “irresponsibility” – as perceived by the leadership – of not having “proper control” over their teens. And the stupid older men who get a rebellious young bride get to be responsible for taming her with his priesthood penis, saving her from certain doom.

    And the boys? C’est la vie!!

  33. When you say chaotic parental families, what do you mean ? Can you describe how it was different than typical families ?

  34. You have to understand that it is now happening more than ever since Warren has been exing men right and left and giving the wives and children to other men. That’s putting teenagers who aren’t in any way related by blood together in the same household without a lot of or any supervision. Take Merril’s household for example. He was married off to the wife of Joseph Steed who brought Steed children into the mix. Merril has some sons who are unmarried and Marie has lots of girls. Imagine those hormones raging.

    Got the picture now?

  35. S, I’m talking about established polygamous families where there are lots of children who have multiple “mothers” usually under one roof. The father is not very available to each child. He often doesn’t get all that involved with his children before they are twelve anyway. (Twelve is the age boys have the Aaronic priesthood conferred on them and the girls need to be seriously groomed for marriage.) The different mothers have different methods of dealing with children – not just hers; all of them – with educational and household duties.

    There is built-in craziness to making sense of disparate expectations from so many people. Add into the mix older sisters and brothers who get to lord it over their younger sibs when they’re expected to help with ever-growing domestic responsibilities.

    Surely you can imagine conflicts abound far beyond what I think you mean by “typical families.”

  36. Chemist my great granparents married in their early 20s which was more common after the Civil War, obviously the war forestalled matrimonies. The fact that Brigham Young married over 50+ wives brings up the topic that polygyny is not just the sole focus of concerns should plural marriages be allowed in Canada or America. The fundamental prophets role in reassignments, pre-eminece, release, arranged betrothals and officiating ceremonies opens a whole plethora of criminal actions. One thing which has never been charged nor pointed out is that Warren S. Jeffs was not a duly licensed minister/justice of the peace to perform marriages in Nevada. Doctor Barlow’s indictment(s) raises additional concerns over the FLDS Church being granted state licensing that leads into criminal activities.

  37. And I meant to add…
    On top of all that, hormones start raging… older brothers often molest their sisters… boys and girls see each other out and about… and of COURSE they have feelings about all kinds of things! BUT THEY HAVE NO AVENUE TO SAFELY EXPRESS THEM!

    And that’s just the tip of the flame.

  38. E.T & Anon 3:10 pm : I imagined that it was like that in a large polygynous family, but I like to assume nothing and make inquiries to obtain objective information. Islamic polygyny is different because each wife usually has her own home and the families are usually separate. I have an interesting article on incest in Mormon Fundamentalist families I can post shortly.

  39. I am incredulous after reading this. Stunned.

    http://vermontpolygamy.blogspot.com/2011/01/paths.html

  40. What woman wouldn’t jump at that proposal!? They’ll be lining up! With ‘God’ as his speaker, so these candidates will know how humble he is… Afterall, it’s ‘God’ declaring his attributes. BARF!

  41. Yep, Huge McEgo is still a Narcissist Abuser — what woman WOULDN’T want such a man in her life? I wonder if he’ll reveal what a failure he’s been as a father so far? Oh wait, I forgot, that was the first wife’s fault — he, of course, could never have failed his children as a father.

    Current Mrs. Pharisee, wake up and run for your life! The man is toxic!!!

  42. Remember he has no need for rebellious women (or women with an IQ higher than 70). Who wouldn’t marry him? Being forced to drive a truck all over the country so that he can stay at home with his numero uno wife while reaping the Prophets (Hehe) your labor.

  43. Sure is nice that all those grannies in the old days were “high class” enough to marry in their 20s. I guess the “low class” have always had to deal with predjudice from others.
    I suggest that everyone spend a day or two collecting demographic data before you declare 20s normal. But I forgot about the ability of those on this site to simply declare facts to be true simply because they say they are.
    Just for the record the marraige age in most of colonial US was 13. Marraige age according to scripture was “beginning of flow”. Simple facts seem to be overlooked here but they are facts just the same.
    I am sure that even Malonis believed that her client was pregnant even after CPS and others proved that she was a virgin but that simple fact just gets ignored as much as Carolyns fantasies.

  44. ZXC did ask about the marriage age of our grandmothers. Some of us provided that and he/she/it is still not happy. Yes, the marriage aget in colonial America was quite young. Read this for more information on marriage age in America. Again this historical data has nothing to do with the flds felons and felons to be.

    http://www.nber.org/papers/h0080

    “Marriage in colonial North America was notable for being early (for women) and marked by low percentages never marrying. This was different from the distinctive northwest European pattern of late marriage and high proportions never married late in life. But the underlying neolocal family formation behavior was the same in both colonial North America and the areas of origin of this population. Thus, Malthus was correct. Abundant resources rather than basic behavioral differences made early and extensive marriage possible in the colonies. Between 1800 and the present there have been long cycles in nuptiality. Since about 1800, female age at first marriage rose from relatively low levels to a peak around 1900. Thereupon a gradual decline commenced with a trough being reached about 1960 at the height of the baby boom. There then began another rapid upswing in female marriage age.

  45. ZXC why do you refuse to proclaim Warrn’s innocence and assert that his underage celestial minor brides were only by proxy and no ‘sexual assault of a child’ occurred?

    The average marrying age in Utah for a female is 19.5 years and increasing, owing to higher education demands. That isn’t a problem with 8th Grade and homeschooled FLDS girls. Right?

    I would say that marrying ages in the teenage years was fairly common but even Joseph Smith married 11 plural wives whom where already lawfully wed, so how often did that occur in the 1800s?

  46. but hugh, 7 year olds can’t drive cars, let alone long distance trucks…….

  47. “Marraige (sic) age according to scripture was “beginning of flow”.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    ZXC,

    Where do you find that verse in the Bible ?

  48. Oh, ZXC this blogsite has a history of over 500,000 postings, you have to understand that your view and posts are in a distinct minority and narrowed viewpoint. The big picture is the criminality of this fanatical FLDS Church sect and not their Constitutional rights which are being impaired for each follower being convicted. See what transpires when nonrecanting felons face their probation boards or are rearrested for repeat offense(s).

  49. Boy, you guys just rise to the bait, don’t you?

  50. “Marraige (sic) age according to scripture was “beginning of flow”.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And what were maternal and fetal mortality rates when girls got married and pregnant at “beginning of flow”?

    UNACCEPTABLY HIGH, according to medical experts, which is why it is NOT MEDICALLY ADVISABLE to get married and pregnant “beginning of flow” which can occur in girls as young as age 6 – 7.

  51. CouldNotResist my bait is just to ask if anyone cares to proclaim ‘Warrants’ innocence, so far there are no takers, seems even the minority view expects a conviction based upon the evidence.

    Can anyone give the totals on wives or offspring of Warren Steed Jeffs?

    Is Warren’s ‘One Man Rule’ crusade really working out according to the zealot’s plan?

  52. CaJim –
    I think that “could not resist” is referring to our comments on his post here –

    http://vermontpolygamy.blogspot.com/2011/01/paths.html

  53. My paternal grandmother was 18 when she married, my maternal grandmother was 24. I can go back through my father’s side of the family to 1690 and the youngest female ancestress was 16 at the time of her marriage and 18 at the time of her first child. Most were in their 20’s. One ancestress, Lydia Sayer, was a well known NY bloomer girl, had a college education and was not married until she was 27.

  54. CAJim, 79 wives and 54 children.

  55. ZXC,

    I am still waiting for you to present me with the Biblical quote wherein it says that “Marraige (sic) age according to scripture was “beginning of flow”

    I am also still waiting for you to provide me with the name and phone number of the parish cemetery which does not permit unbaptized babies to be buried there, so that I can make that intervention for you.

  56. ZXC is following the usual pattern of apology for the child abusers. First, assert that it does not exist. When confronted with the proof that it does exist, say “other people do it”. Yawn.

  57. It is absolutely true that young women married from about 21 and later unless they were anywhere around mormons and I’m guessing perhaps the ravaged south after the civil war. I’m aware of a family who came down through MO into OK then one son went west to NM where he took a 14 year old “bride” with her parents’ permission even. NM put him into the territorial prison, where he died, suicide they called in, up around 1920. Get the picture? The modernday family knew he was plain ignorant of civil laws outside their culture. Oh, the girl’s parents were put into prison in El Paso, where they were caught.

  58. How tiresome. ZXC, we HAVE researched demographics. You are WRONG.

  59. Yes I can document this story above should anyone care but first I’d prefer to ask and receive permission of that family. We researched together but it is not my family surname &c.

  60. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

  61. Nice work, Betty.

  62. zxc is so arrogant and ignorant it overlooks what I said about genealogy. YES I have the documentation and the sample is not small. I the 7 databases I maintain there are 100s of thousands of individuals, going back at times to 1600s.

    You’re welcome, dumas. Keep showing your butt or pull up your pants like a big boy or girl and begin learning about the real world.

  63. zxc “Just for the record the marraige age in most of colonial US was 13” is a crock of feces and you know it.

    I already have. YOU look it up, you lying sackadudu.

  64. Thanks annonymous on the family status but given how Winston Blackmore’s family numbers jumped in the Canadian Supreme Court I would think a 1.20 to 1.25 fudge factor is likely. That translates to 95+ wives and 70* children.

    Wouldn’t living in a family like this be like hell on Earth?

    Does anyone else see a concern with granting these extremists their unfounded ‘Religious Freedom’? Wow, how wacked is that!

  65. Yes, a very good reference Betty. The early age of marriage in colonial Americas was apparently an unusual situation. By the early 1800s the average age had increased to the more normal age we see in in the last century +.

  66. I thought that Blackmore had 120 + children and about 25-30 wives, CaJim.
    What is the actual figure ?

  67. “Sure is nice that all those grannies in the old days were “high class” enough to marry in their 20s. I guess the “low class” have always had to deal with predjudice from others.”

    Well the implication I got from my grandmother was that the only reason you’d marry that young was because you were pregnant. Kind of frowned upon out of marriage in those days. And you seem to display a towering amount of prejudice yourself. Hypocrite much?

    “I suggest that everyone spend a day or two collecting demographic data before you declare 20s normal.”

    I already did. 21 to 25 was the common age of marriage in those days. 13 or 14 and even 16 were uncommon and not encouraged. But don’t take my word for it — do your own research.

    “But I forgot about the ability of those on this site to simply declare facts to be true simply because they say they are.”

    Don’t be so hard on yourself, Z. I’m sure you have reasons that seem quite valid to you for why you make blanket, unsupported statements.

    “Just for the record the marraige age in most of colonial US was 13.”

    If you are saying the lowest legal age was 13, then you may be right — I never researched the laws on marriage, just the data on marriages. However it was not and never has been “common” at any point in colonial American history. What the age of marriage for native Americans was is something I don’t pretend to know about.

    “Marraige age according to scripture was “beginning of flow”.”

    So? This is not a theocracy it is a democratic republic run by rule of law. If you want a theocracy I hear they’re big in the middle east.

    “Simple facts seem to be overlooked here but they are facts just the same.”

    Yes, well it’s also a “fact” that lots of people are allergic to bees. And that’s no more germaine to this conversation than your “facts” were.

    “I am sure that even Malonis believed that her client was pregnant even after CPS and others proved that she was a virgin but that simple fact just gets ignored as much as Carolyns fantasies.”

    You’re going to have to provide evidence that ANYONE “confirmed” Malonis’ young client was a “virgin”. You don’t know that — no matter what priesthood holder stood up in the meeting and claimed it. And, as with your other “facts”, it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. You really go for the Red Herrings, don’t you? Are you that afraid of a real debate?

    Hmmm, with your grasp of “facts” I can see why you might be.

  68. Chemist, I’m not sure what the data for that paper was or where it came from but check this out:

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

    Thirteen has never been a common or commonly accepted marriage age in America as far as my research shows.

  69. Apparently Huge McEgo is still a liar. I find it amusing that he’d come here and try to insinuate his blog entry was just an attempt to “get a rise” out of people. No ladies — the narcissist is dead serious. If you’re considering this monumental loser as a potential spouse I advise you to do a little research. And, again, I urge the current Mrs. Pharisee to run while she still can. The man is an abuser and that isn’t likely to change. Get away and stay away for your own physical and mental health.

  70. S. the courtroom count for Winston Blackmore is 36 wives(includes those that have abandoned/released) and the children count was around 105 and now is recorded at 126 children, with a 4-6 baby increases annually. ‘Warrant’ seems to be more into his doll collection but Winston is more of a ‘bloodline breeder’.

  71. Hugh’s evil little plan shoehorns with his adventurous spirit.

    Although I would recommend, he train them in the fine art of trailer plumbing before they learn to drive a semi truck.

    I can just see his skirts now, yeah prairie dress skirts, out on the highway, chaining up those dualies as they ice road truck on I-90.

    Every womans dream! Not to mention following his narcissistic little rules he makes up on the fly.

    Good thing there is porn on the internet, it’ll help him fulfill his fantasies.

  72. CAJim, the numbers for Warren are 79 wives, 32 of whom were previously his father’s wives. I know of 1 that is now out, 1 that is dead and 1 that was sent away from the YFZ (not sure if she is in our out, remarried or still married to Warren). Of his 54 kids, the legal wife and her sister had the lion share of the kids. Annette and Barbara had 20 of the 54 kids between them.

  73. Rebeckah,
    The reference below shows the average age of the Puritans in the American colonies to be 26 male and 23 female. This is more consistent with the data that you and Betty provided.

    http://www.genealogytoday.com/columns/recipes/tip13a.html

    “The family ways of the Puritans came out of their religious convictions. Family relationships were covenants that could be broken. Marriages, therefore, were not usually performed by a clergyman, but by the magistrate. Divorce was allowed if the covenant was broken. Valid reasons for divorce were: adultery, fraudulent contract, willful desertion, and physical cruelty. It was against the law for husbands and wives to strike each other. Sex was supposed to be confined to marriage and offenders were punished severely–both parties were punished but the men more severely than the women. The average age for marriage was higher than in any other group of immigrants. For men it was age 26 and for women age 23.”

  74. Yes marriage after age 20 was the norm. In fact it seems to have been the norm in most civilizations with recordkeeping as far as I can tell and excluding those who practice polygyny. It is a sad fact (one of those which Z likes to ignore) that polygyny brings about child brides.

  75. Howcome this xzc troll seemed to think it could get away with such an assortment of of outrageous lies here?

  76. I’m still waiting for ZXC the Bible verse which says that ““Marraige (sic) age according to scripture was “beginning of flow”

  77. Sorry, above should read : I’m still waiting for ZXC to provide me with the Bible verse which says that “Marraige (sic) age according to scripture was “beginning of flow”

  78. You’re still way to easy.

  79. um…TOO….easy…

  80. welp. Don’t bother to argue with psychotics or drunks.

  81. Gotta wonder what lie/s zxc will pop off with tomorrow to get its attention.

  82. Well, I commend all of you on the various facts brought forth and I suppose they need re=enforcing continually based on the some of the comments showing up in the polygamy trial in Canada,

    but doesn’t it fall under irrelevant what the Bible says or what the age of marriage was in colonial times? I am sure that the prosecutors and jurors in Texas will take that into account in Warren’s sexual assault trial.

    NOT!

  83. Couldn’t you just see it if ol Warren began babbling his surreal foo in the courtroom. Pure cartoon.

  84. zxc,
    I have no doubt that there are some families in america with an intergenerational history of young marriage.
    Many people find it hard to accept that they or their parents made less than ideal life choices – the same logic that makes women say “well my mother smoked 50 cigarettes a day when she was pregnant with me and i’m just fine, so it’s a myth that smoking during pregnancy is harmful”. Also, if your mother and grandmother married at 16 they are far less likely to be shocked at you doing so than the average parent would be. You seem to be proof of this.
    This is precisely why laws about age of marriaage and consent need to be updated and enforced as cultural norms change and more medical evidence becomes available. To protect people not just from exploitation (and i don’t think everyone marrying a 16 y/o is deliberately exploiting her) but also from the poor choices their upbringing and culture may have normalised.
    I mean, why not wait til an age that has been proven to have better outcomes for mother and child? The whole “it’s the only honourable way to deal with rampant hormones and prevent unwed teen mothers” argument is obsolete in a world with reliable contraception. And that is not encouraging promiscuity. If the young couple are still committed and in love at 21, they can marry and still live their life only having one sexual partner. I don’t see that happening too often though…… So how is tying themselves to a marraige at 16 that given the choice at 21, they probablyy wouldn’t want, a better option?

  85. Tony Alamo was into marrying them young too.

    He was sent away to remedial school for 175 years so he could ponder his fate.

  86. Confession.
    __I am prejudiced against trolls.
    Why?
    __They speak a foreign language; I don’t understand them.
    So?
    __I answer them nothing. They don’t understand me either.

  87. ET

    You cant expect people who want to justify their crazy ideas to make sense – however its as Granny toad says, like a cartoon when they try…

    Or like a ditch digger – they find they keep digging themselves in the hole deeper.

  88. CouldNotResist = Hugh so ignore him. He doesn’t speak intelligently.

  89. melissa,

    Sure there are some who have that kind of history, but they do not make up “average age of marriage” at 13.

    But you mistake ZXC, he’s not interested in facts. He posts that the average age of marriage in colonial times is 13. This is absurd if you think about how averages are come by, that means that it was not unusual for folks to get married at 7. And he’s saying that as if he’s some expert on the facts, when he does not post links, he does not reference books, his writing style indicates that he’s had minimal education or wasn’t particularly paying attention while he was there. I’d say he’s either ex FLDS or some sort of fundamentalist Christian fanatic who believes in the subjugation of women as a law of God.

  90. Someone subjugated ZXeC’s mind, but hey thats ok as long as he doesnt follow the directive to be a criminal.

  91. If you want proof of my father’s family history, see Hasbrouck Family in Amercia, Vol 1 and 2, published by the Huguenot Historical Society. Follow the line of Abraham Hasbrouck.

    Bite me.

    My mother’s side is not so clear, nor is it published that I know of. But it’s easy enough for me to list back to about 1840, when they appear as if by magic in Texas. Their wives were in their early 20’s.

    The idea that 13 used to be the norm is very common amongst sex abuse apologists but there is just no data to back it up. We’ve been through this a dozen times at least and I guess it bears repeating, but it bores me.

  92. Another interesting way warren traveled around while a fugitive. From the priesthood records of warren jeffs; Jan 3 2005.

    ” I am having to go in hiding in gentile clothes to travel among the wicked. I am having to leave the land in the back compartment,
    the sleeper of the big semi trucks”

    Why have the drivers of these trucks not been charged??

  93. Heah, CanNotRest did you ever prove anything in Colorado against anyone whose lifestyle doesn’t match your own, or prove a hoax caller exists or ruin any other innocent persons reputations?

    Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. Do any of the defense attorneies from the FLDS Church, like Ron Parker, even want to take your calls anymore? What’s the matter? Is your heartless acts drained you of any more blood or are your toes TOO SORE?

  94. UHhhh…correction that would be Rod Parker but either way I am sure they would avoid the call.

  95. A very good book on family habits is “A history of private Life”; actually it is a series of volumes each on a different era of history. I read the one on the middle ages and renaissance. It is very interesting not only for it’s own sake but in seeing how many laws came into being over time. It covers all sorts of things, for instance: what was or was not physical abuse in a legal sense, “retirement” obligations for those who employed servants for their whole life times, marriage ceremonies and customs, child rearing, child raising, the myth that people in history lost so many children that they did not feel anything for them, fostering of children, apprenticeships and other forms of indentured servitude, legal rights of married women, widows and married women who are abandoned or left alone because of war or merchant trips,etc….

    People make assumptions about marriage age in the Middle Ages because the high visibility cases that people know about were the royals and super rich. For instance, Eleanor of Acquitaine was 15 when she was married to Louis Vii who was 17. She was the most desirable bride in Europe at the time because of her inheritance. Mary Queen of Scots was married at the age of 5, but her ‘husband’ was only 3. So, the nobility married for dynastic reasons, the parents were very motivated to make sure that the girls were still virgins and to make alliances when it was politically and financially advantageous. In royal families, the young girls were often betrothed at a pre-pubescent age (and the husband also could be quite young), sent to live with and be trained by the husband’s family. There were laws about age of marriage, minimum usually being 12-14 years old. In some cases a child could refuse their parent’s betrothal contract once they reached this age of consent and the consent had to be witnessed (usually by a priest). So frequently, a betrothal of a child would be followed by a marriage many years later, after this legal age of consent.

    But the story of the common folks is quite different although a lot of it is about money, also. The majority were expected to work for the family business and help support the younger family members. Even in relatively wealthy merchant families, the teen girls contributed to the tasks of running a large family and business that would include apprentices and employees to be fed and housed.

    Sometimes girls were given out as indentured servants to other families for a specific amount of time and not allowed marriage until after that contract was satisfied. This practice is somewhat similar to fostering boys as squires or apprentices.

    In cases of those who were serfs and thus their labor was considered to be owned by a lord, often a fee had to be paid to the lord to release the bride from service, since it was assumed that she would not produce as much once she was raising children. Many postponed their marriages until that fee could be raised. Also when families lived in extreme poverty, often a young couple would postpone marriage until they could afford a separate domicile. These economic factors pushed their average ages of marriage back to the early 20’s.

    By examining church records and documents from wills and such, the average age of marriage can be determined pretty well, and yes, people have already spent their lives and careers doing just that. The average age of marriage for women amongst the nobility was 16-17 and among the lower classes it was 19-21.

    In no scholarly records from any time period, have I seen any proof that 13 was the average age of marriage for ANY CULTURE AT ANY TIME. I will not change my mind on that until someone presents me with some sort of proof.

    I note that ZXC states that we on this site expect others to believe us even though we offer no proof. In fact, that is classic projection. We are offering proof and he is not. He is just proclaiming his opinion as truth, probably based on religious teachings.

    Anyway, a link to one of these volumes in case you are interested in reading it yourself.

    http://www.amazon.com/History-Private-Life-II-Revelations/dp/0674400011/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

  96. ZXC, where is this proof that Malonis’ client was a virgin? You got that in your back pocket?

  97. So far its been found among the previous trials and convictions that those child bride victims werent virgins, as they had born children the old fashioned way under Warrens Church stewardship.

    I have heard some, maybe not all, of Warrens child bride victims had children too. We will see in court here shortly.

    Warren, exposed!

  98. And its pretty hilarious for these molester protecters to stand on a soapbox and claim any child bride from this cult, who may not have given birth to a child, is a “virgin”…

    Just another few shovels to make your hole deeper, Z!

    Say, I reckon you heard that Warren has it all on tape, oops, now the popo have it on tape?

  99. Thanks Betty but need to know and locked in contempt prior to investigation leads ZXC into a lifestyle of everlasting ignorance. I like what you found and believe that facts are hard things, even for the soft minded.

    Does anyone still want to proffer their belief that Warren Steed Jeffs married underage ‘celestial’ brides by proxy, alone?

    We seem to be attacked and debated, while no one chooses to defend or disavow the FLDS members for their practices, tenets and beliefs (even bigotry is justified in some warped way).

  100. I love that: “facts are hard things, even for the soft minded”!

  101. I wonder how much of the fanatical devotion to Warren and other religious abusers is shame? When you have committed atrocities against those who love and trust you — men simply acquiring women and never developing a true relationship with them, women giving daughters to men at young ages, etc. — then it either has to be true or you are a monster. Since no one wants to be a monster they cling to the mantra that is must all be true.

    Sound reasonable?

    (For those who might not be clear about what I’m saying — it’s a theory not a claim.)

    🙂

  102. I’m guessing that the closing of other venues for the opposition is causing them to wash up on our shores. No Brooke, few polygamy stories on the trib, Medvecky’s site gone. They need a clubhouse of their own.

  103. Rebeckah, that is probably true. It’s similar to why people stay in bad marraiges; they don’t want to admit that the time they already put in was wasted or that they were fooled into loving someone unworthy!

  104. ZXC said,,,
    LOL……so Young is now on the radar for young brides. It is interesting to note that the age for marraige was observed in Youngs day and that even in Texas 14 was legal before the FLDS religion was “targeted”

    ZXC yes, 14 was legal, IF PARENTS APPROVED and MARRIED TO ONE MAN AND SHE WAS THE ONE WIFE.

    THE FLDS “RELIGION” IS ILLEGAL BECAUSE THEY PRACTICE BIGAMY.

    WARREN JEFFS BROKE TEXAS LAW, ENGAGING IN SEXUAL ASSAULT OF A CERTAIN 12 YEAR OLD, BUT ALSO OF ANOTHER 12 YEAR OLD.

    GEE WIZ

  105. I think it’s funny. If you start the ALamo video and hover your pointer over the vid, an add for an online divinity degree comes up, followed by “wedding dance classes” add. You too could marry a 12 year old and dance with her at your wedding! Just get that online degree and take these dance classes and your on your way to being the leader of a new cult!

  106. Your right about that, Betty. I have a friend who is finally getting out of a 25 year abusive marriage (only because he decided it was over, sadly) and now that she is finally able to start seeing what she has REALLY put up with she keeps saying that she feels like she was stupid or it seems like she was stupid. We have to keep reassuring her how very hard it is to realize abuse while it is happening to you — especially in a case like hers where she was emotionally battered even before the relationship. It’s not easy.

  107. What I don’t understand is why certain fundamentalist groups champion marriage at a young age when younger age at marriage is associated with a higher incidence of marital dissatisfaction and subsequent divorce – what do they want to accomplish through that ? eventual dissolution of families ?

    Age of Marriage Risk of Divorce for Women Risk of Divorce for Men
    35 5.1% 6.5%

  108. Rebeckah the abusers have been beyond the priesthood FLDS members. I fear the moms should be forced to face the consequences for their parenting failures simply because they have proven themselves to allied with the perpetrators. This is a very tough resolution to eradicate this generational practices but I don’t see another solution. Flora Jessop has discussed this ultimate law enforcement action and reasons along the same justifications.

  109. Sorry – I placed a table above and it was cut off
    I will post a link

  110. Can someone explain the relationship between the Lanfgords, LeBarons and Stubbs please.

  111. Given that some of the troll type people have caused enormous personal, financial, and professional grief I would recommend complete “Answer THEM NOTHING”

  112. Rebekah,
    I agree – and I think that my parent’s did it or I did it and I am not a bad person so it must not be bad is a great theory…

    explains a lot of Utah’s inability to deal with the culture of polygamy
    Grandpa and Grandma did it and I am the result so really how bad could it be?

  113. I know I read somewhere Brigham Young said a woman should be married by the time she was 18, but I cannot find it. I can’t seem to find it searching Journal of Discourses or a Google search. I can’t find my Gospel Link CD’s (Collection of Mormon Church literature) to reinstall them and search. Can someone tell me if they find it?

  114. There are two elements in play in almost everyone I have seen married to an abuser, myself included. One is ignorance. You don’t know what abuse really is, don’t know the warning signs, don’t know the mental health aspects of it. The other is the conviction that your love or your behavior will solve the problem. This, to me is also ignorance, but it can have elements of pride or arrogance in it. (You are so special that you cure crazy people just by being around them.)

  115. I believe, S, that the true motive about the marry ’em young is control. Let’s face it, it’s far easier to intimidate, control and mold a 13 year old girl than it is a 21 year old woman. Particularly if the woman has actually been given access to an education, knowledge and any self empowing life experiences. It breaks my heart.

  116. Annonymous the fact that someone is a byproduct of polygyny is one aspect of it being normalized. The Mormon teachings that polygamy pre-existed and exists after this life in the celestial kingdom serves to enforce polygyny as ordained by the Almighty, which scripturally is not valididated by the Bible. Preserving within the Doctrine and Covenats 132 a revelation to institute polygamy not only along with monogamy but it is given the greater value and monogamy is denigrated. No where in the Bible is polygamy elevated as it is in the 132 tenet.

  117. So does anyone want to talk to troll-boy? I thought NOT!

  118. Not I, said the mouse.

  119. Here is the link I referenced – lower age of marriage is more highly associated with risk of marital dissatisfaction and divorce

    http://www.divorcerate.org/

  120. This episode of What Love is This ? is interesting – a theology graduate student comments on Old Testament polygamy, which was never mandatory for salvation or exaltation

    http://www.whatloveisthis.tv/ep329.htm

  121. Freedom of religion sure seems to threaten a lot of people. I suggest that someone on this site propose a constitutional ammendment to align the constitution with a modern secular state and save everyone the time and money for lawyers amd simply avoid having to “target” a specific religion.
    There will be no need to even crack open a bible anymore after the pretense of religious freedom has been replaced by a few simple phrases acceptable to a state sanctioned guru of cosmic belief.
    Noone will have to cite their favorite anti sources only to be challenged by an opposing “expert” and no longer will persons have to twist a few laws or fabricate a few facts in order to harass a peaceful church community.
    Throw enough mud and something will stick will no longer be the means for attacking a church.
    I did not create Joseph Smiths religion but it seems that the man created something that few can ignore. So why not just quit the dance of religious tolerance and burn a few religious books and solve any percieved problems.

  122. It’s bait & wait.

  123. *stifling giggles*

  124. The San Angelo newspaper has been running stories about a missing 13 year old girl who vanished, but they have not found any traces of her. Polygamist Mitchell turned to kidnapping to obtain teen bride, which raises the question has anyone thought to check YFZ to see if girl is there, perhaps the FLDS feels it needs new blood to prevent inbreeding problems.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2011/jan/15/father-continues-his-mission/

  125. Yawn.

  126. A Texan, I thought that they only wanted girls trained to their way of life.

    I would tend to agree with the police that it’s the mother’s new boy friend.

  127. Here’s more on missing Colorado City, TEXAS girl missing:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20027566-504083.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

  128. Usually in cases of violence like this it is the mother’s boyfriend or a stepfather. I don’t think folks at YFZ would be interested in abduction of this girl.

  129. Polygamy in Turkey

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=some-186000-women-live-with-their-8216sister-wives8217-2011-01-11

  130. Underage marriages in Turkey are the leading cause of missing children.

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=early-marriages-raise-missing-children-rate-2010-05-28

  131. Mormons historically did some of that. I seriously doubt that FLDS care about widening or deepening their genetic wading pool but hey things could change, maybe Warren needs some news felony charges to flaunt in the US States. He and his closest followers crave negative attention.

  132. About the Turkish article is it differentiating between Turks and Kurds at all?

  133. Try the Hailey Dunn facebook site and this one http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2011/jan/14/no-headline—missing_girl_for_web/

    The panfish knows, this is our stompin grounds

  134. Toad, the article doesn’t differentiate between Kurds and Turks.

  135. ZXC said:
    Freedom of religion sure seems to threaten a lot of people.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again ZXC, pedophilia is not a religion. No religion is allowed to break the laws of the US. Religious laws don’t trump any state or federal law.

    If your religion believes in smoking crack, you’re gonna get busted just the same as if your religion believes in raping young girls.

  136. A Texan, about the only similarity between the Haily Dunn story and the FLDS is the fact that both have towns called Colorado City. Colorado City Texas is pretty far away from Eldorado and the YFZ.

  137. “Freedom of religion sure seems to threaten a lot of people.”

    Freedom from abuse sure seems to threaten a lot of religious morons.

    “I suggest that someone on this site propose a constitutional ammendment to align the constitution with a modern secular state and save everyone the time and money for lawyers amd simply avoid having to “target” a specific religion.”

    FIrst of all, the Constitution is already in line with our modern secular state. That’s why Muslims aren’t running around Colorado City stoning your women to death for having their hair and faces uncovered. Secondly, the tired refrain of the FLDS being “targeted” grows more pathetic each time it’s used. The reality is that Warren Jeffs, by his own admission in numerous venues, instigated this imbroglio. He deliberately brought about this confrontation with the “secular” government — the same one that provides medical care and financial and food assistance for the inhabitants of Colorado City who need it. Grow up, Z.

    “There will be no need to even crack open a bible anymore after the pretense of religious freedom has been replaced by a few simple phrases acceptable to a state sanctioned guru of cosmic belief.”

    There never has been a need to crack open the Bible. Our Constitution forbids any religion from running the show — and that includes Christianity. It’s really sad that you have no clue about how our nation runs.

    “Noone will have to cite their favorite anti sources only to be challenged by an opposing “expert” and no longer will persons have to twist a few laws or fabricate a few facts in order to harass a peaceful church community.”

    Hmm, so we’ve gone from “You people have no facts.” to “You people have — what? No need for facts? False “facts”? What? I really love your little slip -n- slide arguments. They reveal so clearly how purile the pro-child-abuse-as-religion faction is.

    “Throw enough mud and something will stick will no longer be the means for attacking a church.”

    No one has “attacked” the FLDS church — they’ve gathered evidence of crimes and are prosecuting the criminals. There is no religious get-out-of-jail-free card for criminals — no matter how much you’d like to believe their should be. And it goes without saying that you only feel this religious “freedom” should only be allowed for YOUR church. I don’t see you up here excusing Brian Mitchell’s religious “freedom” to kidnap and rape Elizabeth Smart. Apparently you’re not all the big on freedom of religion after all, are you?

    “I did not create Joseph Smiths religion but it seems that the man created something that few can ignore.”

    Most of the world ignores Joseph Smith’s religion. In a world of almost 7 billion the vast majority have never even heard of it. Most of those who have simply dismiss it as that kooky American religion and give it no more thought. Don’t kid yourself — except for those poor vulnerable souls being hurt by it, Joseph Smith’s legacy is utterly forgetable.

    “So why not just quit the dance of religious tolerance and burn a few religious books and solve any percieved problems.”

    Snort! Yeah, why not? While we’re slipping into melodrama I’ve got to wonder when the FLDS are planning to use their “religious freedom” to burn people at the stake.

    Seriously, is that the best you can do?

    Pathetic. Simply pathetic.

  138. I find it hard to believe that a Catholic, living in such a throwback parish that they don’t bury unbaptized infants, would say anything nice about Joseph Smith.

  139. Looks like some bend the dictionary to fit their need for buzz words in the anti flds fight. Reread the definition of pedophilia and you will see that a physically mature female just doesn’t fit your definition in the same way that a Virgin does not fit the definition of pregnant.
    perhaps people on this site rely on natilie malonis to define pregnancy. But hey…..yall ignore Carolyns lies as you see fit so why not redefine a few more words as you please.

  140. A girl who is barely 12 is not a physically mature woman.

  141. Let’s just take Warren’s wives alont, Merrianne was barely 12, Colleen was 12 and trafficked from Canada, Brenda Lei was 12. Loretta Jane, Ida Vilate were 13, Alysha and Marlene were 13 and trafficked from Canada. Tammara, Annie, Veda and Gloria Anne were all 14. Permilia was 15. You’re telling me that all of these children were mature women? You’re full of crap. They are girls, not women.

  142. Sexual interest in a 12 yr old is called hebephilia, defined by DSM IV TR as a sexual paraphilia. Warren Jeffs is therefore a hebephile.

  143. I am positively sputtering to keep from laughing at the visiting ignorant ass

  144. PanFish, Happy New Year and good to see you here again !

  145. The American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) criteria for Pedophilia (302.2) are:
    A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with children (GENERALLY AGE 13 OR YOUNGER);
    B. The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty;
    C. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

  146. Granted, the general activities of the FLDS men pretending to marry minors is more accurately hebephilia — however, pedophilia is the common, layman’s term for any individual having sexual activity with a minor. The layman doesn’t generally use the DSM so you’re just going to have to learn to deal with that fact, Z.

  147. And, while I haven’t actually seen any lies told by Carolyn, we’ve caught you in a few, haven’t we Z? You lied about being a Catholic. You lied about Warren’s 12 year old bride being “proven” to be a virgin. You lied about Catholics refusing to bury unbaptized infants. And that’s just the tip of the whole lying iceburg with you. I’m wondering if you even know how to tell the truth. Why would anyone find something a liar like you defends to be admirable? You smear it with your sleazy tactics — not that the FLDS leadership needs any help looking sleazy…

  148. WHY do FLDS lie? Are they so arrogant as to think others stupid? Feh.

  149. Liars lie and stupid people think everyone is as gullible as they are I guess. 😉

  150. No lies her yall. I am Catholic. I never refered to “Warrens bride, only that malonis made the issue of pregnany when in fact she was a virgin. So rant on folks. It seems that the Diagnostic manuel of the American Phychaitric association has in fact replaced our constitution in the minds of persons on this site.
    If you are so incensed by the words “targeting a religion” I suggest that you lay your disdain for the phrase at the foot of the legislator that penned the phrase. Since you seem to be annoyed by manipulation of facts perhaps you should do a fact check concerning the initial allegations against the church by the State and judge credibility by the dozens of manipulated children and women by the State.
    has anyone found Sarah yet?
    In the meantime persons here scof and giggle as persons living on the ranch now are harassed by overflights and busybodies spresding more lies.
    What a hoot……… the world according to hypocrits.

  151. Actually the Constitution makes no comment on the definition of pedophilia or hebephilia, but DSM does. There are no constitutional guarantees which protect anyone’s “right” to have sex with a minor.
    Do it and you will go to jail.
    Don’t like it – don’t live in the United States.

    Rant on.

  152. Coerrection ..Malonis made the pregnant allegation concerning a virgin.
    From the beginning insults and lies have been used to demonize people that have a right to live in peace and observe their religious practices just as others in this country are intitled to.
    The initial accusations from Flora and Carolyn have been proven to be wild fantasy.
    Even if the accused and convicted serve all of their terms the crematoriums were never on the ranch. The arsenal of weapons was a joke. Sarah was the concoction of a nutball after 40 hrs of conversation by Flora.
    It is called credibility folks…….. and the American Association of Shrinks are not experts of either constitutional law or the bible.
    So once again……..go get a shovel and dig up a few non-existant graveyards and leave peaceful people alone to worship their God.

  153. Your world certainly is a vast and encompassing multi-hypocisty, also cartoonishly amusing as hell.

  154. Guys, did this bozo carry on like this at mudpucky’s too? Has anyone suggested a psychiatric evaluation?

  155. I don’t know why you guys are arguing with this guy. He’s not very bright, he has atrocious spelling and grammar, he does not back up any assertion he makes, he does not make logical arguments. I’m all for rational exchange, but you are engaged in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Who cares what he thinks? Do you really think arguing with him is doing anyone any good?

  156. And, he comes to a site that is known for it’s posters using facts and research to prove their points…and proceeds to tell you that YOU are wrong! BOZO!

  157. I have grown tired of this troll. His posts are devoid of intellectual content and make no sense.

  158. Don’t feed the troll and maybe it will go away.

  159. Why can’t they send a more intelligent troll, one who can spell, use proper grammar, and put forward rational, intelligent arguments based on objective data ?

  160. S
    because after about two years there is nothing left to justify mandatory polygamy but religion and the only case you have left is freedom of religion….

  161. It just comes here to be abusive to decent folk, and for negative attention. I think we can flag it.

  162. I’ll go out on a limb here and say that the virgin isn’t so virginal as she had a child in February 2008. Named him Rulon Jeffs Jessop.

  163. I wish Ruthie. Maybe we need a voodoo doll or something like that. Or maybe Willie can tell Medvecky that his troll is an idiot.

  164. Ahhhh do you know who’s raising the boy? Or was a couple years back?

  165. I guess one of Merrill’s concubines? Or her sister?

  166. ZXC said It is called credibility folks…….. and the American Association of Shrinks are not experts of either constitutional law or the bible.

    Neither are you ZXC.

    And I am trying to figure out if your idiocy and bad spelling is because you are drunk or just stupid.

    FU,
    Love Fred

  167. As far as I can tell this whole “freedom of religion” issue is simply a red herring (again). The FLDS have the same freedom to practice their religion as any other faith in America — don’t break the law practicing your religion and you’re golden. The men who have been prosecuted broke the law. They are either in jail or facing trial. The others continue to practice their religion freely — and hopefully within the bounds of the law.

  168. And I agree with the don’t feed the troll thing.

    Although I find the lie of being a Catholic to be absolutely hilarious. The poster understands the Catholic faith less than he understands the Constitution.

  169. I think that our proclaimed virgin expert who seems to know which proxy ‘Child Brides’ really is or who isn’t. Why does this expert stay away from proclaiming ‘Warrants’ innocence. You fail to nominate who the ‘Male-Loin-Is’ responsible for aggravated sexual assault of any child. Could it be that you fear another conviction? Does the pending indictment portend another case of DNA evidence that returns a vedict of GUILTY?

    The FLDS Church members that have been found guilty by verdict or voluntary plea of aggravated ‘Sexual Assault of a Child’ reveals that marrige by proxy, though plausible, has not yet been proven to exist.

    Is there no one who will state that ‘Warrant’ is innocent of these charges and he would never rape a minor ‘Child Bride’. I guess there will soon be another verdict to confirm/exonerate this question. If you wish to defend ‘Warrant’, just post me your belief but don’t defend a series of convictions as affirmation that any ‘Child Brides’ are virgins and not victims.

  170. I have been active on this site and other sites (SLT,TBM, etc,etc) dealing with mormon fundies for several years. My observation is that the flds supporters are generally intellectually lazy. Most of them just say something and provide no sources. At worst, they resort to childish name calling and call those they disagree with bigots, haters, etc. I agree with Fred’s evaluation and final comment regarding the most recent troll.

  171. Rebeckah,
    the freedom of religion thing isn’t a red herring. It is all they got. If they surrender the freedom of religion as a blanket excuse for breaking the law, they have nothing to justify breaking the law.

    It is a rather poor end game because, as you have pointed out, and has been demonstrated over and over, freedom of religion means freedom to believe, not to engage in acts that the civil authority has forbidden as being against the greater good of society and in protection of the rights of those who need protection (women and children).

  172. God Bless ‘Freedom Fred’!

    HHG I completely agree with your view and wish to add that proclaiming polygyny as a religious tenet in section 132 of the Doctrines and Covenants doesn’t unilaterally remedy the fact that bigamy has been made valid/true/legal within the United States, Canada or Mexico. Polygamy has been specifically outlawed, in the then US Territory, in 1862 and was never legalized anywhere.

  173. So the persecution goes on, and the harassment of innocent church members goes on ……….have fun folks. have a blast setting up a perpetual hate filled attack on a peaceful people,
    Fly your planes and deny honest people honest work. Continue to deny what even the Texas Supreme court has said and continue to spread inuenedo……..it is so entertaining.

  174. I didn’t complete my thought…

    To the external world it has to be justified by “freedom of religion”
    and to themselves and others the only justification is God’s will,

    After two years of waiting for a cogent argument on the benefits of polygamy – no one has stepped forward to explain why society should tolerate it….there is nothing that stands up to historical and anthropological fact…And that is increasingly clear with the trial in canada.

  175. the FLDS have freedom to practice the parts of their religion that don’t break the law. the religion can’t be an excuse for breaking the law. that’s the part that they don’t get.

    i get so tired of hearing willie screaming that they are being targeted for their religion. if their religion didn’t deliberately break the law, they wouldn’t have any problems.

  176. Why is there no one to defend the indicted ‘Warrant’. I do believe he is a piece lover of girls, a big believer in illicit polygyny and seer of the ruining of dozens of FLDS members lives and families owing to criminal prosecution(s) and not any religious persaecution(s). Won’t anyone ascert their full faith and belief in ‘Warrants’ innocence? What still no defenders of Mr.Pergect the prophet.

  177. More emphasis should be placed on the psychological damage that this style of marriage has on women. How can you possibly justify a form of marriage that harms one sex so another can get to heaven? Ridiculous? Not to mention the men who never get to be married (more harm) thanks to man made (the prophet’s) decisions.

    It is wrong on so many levels.

  178. Anyone in residence at the YFZ Raunch is far from guiltless but rather a full fledged member of the notorious, ‘Hole-in-the-
    Ground’ gang. Not a proper place to rear children, forced to stay in a gulag, lead by a fanatical group of religious zealots bent on defending their theocratic form of rapes, abuses and secreted lifestyles.

  179. Swissie Mom, that is exactly what is being done at the Canadian Reference trial. There are some affidavits on the Stop Polygamy in Canada website which document those efforts to highlight objective research on this issue.

  180. Z

    Your Catholic nun penquin teacher box your ears much?

  181. Hellohellogoodbye, you are absolutely right. However, the argument itself is still a red herring. A red herring is a logical fallacy where someone attempts to derail the point of the argument onto another line of thought. In the FLDS case they are attempting to derail the issue of crimes and abuses to their sorry excuse of freedome of religion. There has never been a religion of abuse.

    I wonder why liar Z hasn’t been here crying for the “targeting” of Alamo and Mitchell’s religions? I guess he really doesn’t care about “freedom of religion” just freedom of the FLDS to commit crimes and abuses.

    Oh, and the claim that they FLDS leadership is “peaceful” or that the religion is “peaceful” is another lie. The attacks, violations and abuses of non-FLDS members living in Short Creek is yet more evidence that this religion is not particularly peaceful at all. They are perfectly willing to lie, cheat, steal, commit crimes and abuse anyone they think they can get away with abusing to get their own way. The treatment of the Hainlines, Ruth and others just shows the violence in their faith.

  182. SwissieMom, you hit the nail on the head.

    The main problem with polygamy and particularly religiously mandated polygyny, is that it is an inherent human rights violation with multiple PROVEN negative effects on others and society.

  183. Swissie Mom – From the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy – The Affidavit of Dr Lawrence Beall

  184. I recall that someone asked about baby cemeteries – here is an affidavit which contains the information you requested –

  185. The belief that women are property and subject to the priesthood’s decisions to enter the ‘Celestial Kingdom’ is misogyny refined to it’s finest form but written before 1850s. Somewhat discounted by the Biblical gospels of St. Paul that calls everyone who believes to be equals and children of God, not concubines, chattel or enslaved to any priestly realm.

    Which teaching seems to be the truth and enlightened? Doesn’t need some modern secular humanistic twist, just basic Bible thump reasoning.

  186. We are often told that girls in their early teens have reached maturity, and are no longer maturing or developing, and therefore they are eligible for marriage or decision making regarding marriage. This is false, neurological maturity is not achieved until the mid twenties.

    From Dr Beall’s affidavit –

    Research using MRIs have found that the greatest changes to the prefrontal cortex occur between puberty and adulthood (mid-twenties). As Jay Giedd, a researcher at the National Institute of Mental Health said:
    “It is unfair to expect adolescents to have adult levels
    of decision making before their brain is finished being built.” The implications for an adolescent girl making major decisions such as whether to marry and whom to marry, in her early
    to mid-teens are therefore significant. The considerations and thought processes entailed in such decisions surpass the cognitive capacity
    of these adolescent girls.”

  187. Very true, Jim –

    From Galatians, Chapter 3, NIV –

    26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, MALE NOR FEMALE, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

  188. Yes S. and it reads clearly in Galatian 4:4-7

    “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons[/daughters]. 6 And because you are sons[/daughters], God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father”! 7 Therfore you are no longer a slave but a son[/daughter], and if a son[/daughter], then an heir of God through Christ”.

    We are no one’s slave/property but rather a child by adoption or inheritance through the Spirit.

  189. Concur !

  190. Have I missed sometthing?? Apparently someone thinks the yfz raunch is a sovereign state that should be able to control the air space above the raunch. As a private property owner of acres of ground I have no control of who flys over my land. The flds property in TX is the same as I am in that regard. Z is dumber than a post.

  191. The last time I checked, there is an aerial photograph of my property on Google Maps. There is no right to “protected airspace.”

  192. How else ‘re ya gunna tax real estate? Guess x ain’t ever had any in the family. Gave it all away to the trust or rents a mobile hovel?

  193. You can view my house on google earth and you can see my truck and the lawn tractor and the fact that my lawn was dying from the drought. So what?

  194. My guess is that the FLDS ‘Exodus’ must have a column cloud that has come to rest over their raunchy location that lead them to this ‘Land of Refuge’ that ‘Warrant’ has made the land of
    ‘Guilty and Imprisoned’. The guilty here cry out to plea bargain and appeal but not to straighten their pathways. The lies reflect the crooked paths they follow and they follow a false prophet whom knows not the way. Unless they learn to change their ways they will find their is no rest for the wicked.

    Isn’t that right, ‘Can Not Rest’?

  195. It appears that IMO the FLDS have failed to obey or pay attention to the very Book of Mormon which they claim as scripture:

    15Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.

    Above 3 Nephi verse 15 to 20

    http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/14.15?lang=eng#14

    By Warren Jeffs fruits we know him as a vile evil men followed by vile evil men who have committed vile unspeakable crimes, torn families apart destroyed people lives, forced young boys to become lost boys, forced young girls to marry before they are ready physically or mentally ready, violated the civil rights of many. Yes we know the fruits of Warren Jeffs and it’s time for Texas to cut this tree down and cast it into the fire, the fire of life in Huntsville, Texas singing those Texas prison blues. Lordy, Lordy Warren’s going to sing those blues.

  196. The FLDS & Warren Jeffs would also do well to read Matthew chapter 7

    http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/7?lang=eng

    Above KJV , but NIV will also tell you the same.

  197. Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock goes the clock, only seven(7) more days to ‘Warrants’ next courtroom appearance. Five outright guilty verdicts and two ‘no contest’ pleas leaves only a diminished faith for those that, somehow, still believe that this is more of a civil rights issue than controlling a intra-state crime spree, a ‘Fishing Expedition’ than a lengthy series of Schleicher County Grand Jury indictments against the largest crime wave to ever hit West Texas. The truth is clearly being displayed as the trials contiue and the unfounded claims and protestations fail to bring any verdicts besides guilty, guilty and guilty. A matter of ‘targeted’ religious perswecution or a intractable fundamentalist sect conducting illicit activities, as usual, albeit in prairie style dresses, clean cut appearances and hidden practices.

    The truth will prevail and the guilty will answer for their sexual assaults on children, regardless of any overt attempts to lie, mask or cover-up.

  198. Speaking of “the truth will prevail” what happened to that apologist’s site ? The author seems to have vanished into thin air.

  199. Very well said CAJim. That may be why so many flds supporters have disappeared from the blogs and comment boards.

  200. Where did they all go ?

  201. In honor of the 5th and final season of Big Love getting underway, I give you the talents of America’s favorite child bride: Rhonda Volmer (R.I.P.)

  202. Did Rhonda die in the series ?

  203. CAJim, he doesn’t appear again until January 31 for a pretrial in advance of his February 21 trial. They’ve joined the Aggravated Sexual Assault charge with the Sexual Assault charge and will try them together. Jury selection will start on Feb 21.

  204. Thanks annonymous when they blended the charges but ‘Warrant’ released his council, I thought the original court date was re-instated, unless the court appointed counselor expressed his own timeframe requests. Either way the elapse of the crushing juggernaut of guilty verdicts is in evidence and taking it’s toll. Still not one YFZ Raunch resident has come forward to own up or admit any wrongdoing, very haunting and alarming to factor.

  205. It’s an expanded criminal family, whatcha expect, Jim?

  206. no, the blended charges was in response to Warren’s not getting counsel. They stuck and his appointed counsel is stuck with the Feb 21 trial date and Jan 31 pretrial date.

  207. The more interesting aspect to this trial will not be ‘Warrants’ representation’s defense efforts but overt/covert attempts to undermine, tamper and restrain his own vigorous defense to in someway create his chances for a mistrial/retrial.

    I am curious to see if the ‘Answer Them Nothing’ policy is abandoned in a attempt to save himself.

  208. Jim I bet he will.

  209. Yep CAJim.when ya target a religion thats what ya get. When laws are taylored to descriminate against one particular religious community it is no wonder the law ‘wins”.
    tanks ans sniper rifles only prove that might will out shoot those with fewer guns. With laws taylored to “target a religion” do you really expect any other outcome than the one that everyone here crows about.
    It took the US cavalry to force the LDS to change their religious habits. Short creek saw their army in 53 yet continued to worship a bit more off the radar.
    It is so refreshing that many here post scripture to justify their position. There are many more scripture passages that others can post to refute your interpretation of scripture from the very same book.
    We have hundreds of Christian denomonations in this very country that can’t agree on the meaning of words that are written in a book that they all read. We have other denomonations that simply remove a few books from a bible or strike a sentence or two.
    Isn’t freedom of religion an interesting concept? The FLDS do not have to agree with your spiritual wisdom, God and the constitution gave every man the right to chose his own poison.

  210. Lonely childhood recalled at B.C. polygamy case

    By Daphne Bramham, Vancouver Sun Columnist January 17, 2011

    VANCOUVER — Cold, lonely, isolated and hopeless was how Brenda Jensen described her childhood growing up in polygamous communities in Canada and the United States.

    “We [the children] were empty vessels, disposable vessels for their use,” she said of the powerful men who controlled the fundamentalist Mormon communities in Bountiful, B.C. and on the Arizona-Utah border. “We had no emotions, no dreams and no thoughts. We were [taught] to be empty.”

    Jensen testified Monday in the constitutional reference case being heard in B.C. Supreme Court, which will determine the validity of Canada’s polygamy law.

    Obedience to the so-called priesthood leaders was of paramount importance. The training began soon after birth with babies’ cries smothered by a parental hand.

    “A baby was never to interrupt,” said Jensen, who left the group in 1968. “There were also lots of spankings and restraints but the smothering down was probably the most damaging.”

    Last week, Jensen’s niece Carolyn Jessop testified. Jessop who escaped with her eight children in 2003 told Chief Justice Robert Bauman that water torture of babies is one way that members — usually men — in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints instill fear of authority.

    Babies are spanked until they cry and when they do they’re held face up under running water until they stop crying. The process is repeated until the baby is too exhausted to cry after being spanked.

    In addition to being physically abused, Jensen told the court that she had also been sexually abused as a child in Bountiful.

    But, voice thick with tears, Jensen said the emotional abuse was worse.

    “The unworthiness, the never being good enough, the not having a parent who was accessible to talk to when things happened to you that you couldn’t explain it. Even if you had the courage to bring it up, it was disclaimed as God’s will. You must have done something wrong.

    “It was the self-loathing. The hopelessness of thinking that you’re never going to get out and it’s never going to get any better so you might as well give up and let them do whatever they wanted to you.”

    Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Lonely+childhood+recalled+polygamy+case/4122384/story.html#ixzz1BMMTKZu0

  211. Z

    Cmon, its every priesthood mans right to treat his children any way he wants, right?

  212. Bountiful founder renounced church in the end, daughter tells B.C. court

    By: James Keller, The Canadian Press

    VANCOUVER – In the late 1940s, Harold Blackmore bought 30 hectares of isolated, rural property in southeastern British Columbia and set up a small commune where he and other fundamentalist Mormons could live what they considered the original teachings of prophet Joseph Smith, including polygamy.

    The large parcel of farmland would later become known as Bountiful, the now-infamous community at the heart of a B.C. constitutional court case, where today about 1,000 residents follow a brand of Mormonism long rejected by the mainstream church.

    But two decades after settling there, Blackmore’s daughter told the court Monday, he renounced the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS, which had taken control of the community. Then living in a sister community in the United States, Blackmore left with his two wives and their children.

    “He was a devout man, he was a very religious man, and he got faced with so many disappointments when it came to how they (the church) lived their lives and destroyed the lives of other people,” his daughter, Brenda Jensen, testified Monday at the hearings examining the constitutionality of Canada’s law against polygamy.

    “He did come to such a bitter realization that he had made a terrible mistake.”

    Jensen, now in her late 50s, said Blackmore and his first wife were devout Mormons, which led them to read about the church’s early teachings, including the sanctioning of polygamy.

    She said Blackmore convinced his wife, Gwen, to allow another women to enter the family. Blackmore’s second wife was Gwen’s sister, Florence, who was Jensen’s mother.

    They lived in Bountiful with several other polygamous families and eventually linked themselves to an American group of fundamentalist Mormons from an area known as Short Creek — now the twin cities of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah.

    Jensen described a childhood of abuse and control, which she compared to the dystopian world portrayed in George Orwell’s book “Animal Farm.”

    The community preached equality, where residents would pool resources and distribute them evenly, but she said in reality some residents were favoured, like the pigs in Orwell’s book.

    Children in the FLDS were expected to be completely obedient, and violence was the preferred tool for compliance.

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/former-bountiful-resident-describes-cold-isolated-childhood-under-polygamy-113906019.html

  213. ZXC freedom of religion as practiced by the FLDS Church allows for no one unlucky enough to be born into it to choose. The prophet, priesthood and parents set your fate in your childhood and you either go along with the indoctrination or you’re shunned. To aid this draconian mindset you are raised in a gulag, afforded only limited homeschooling and given no skills that would allow you to function independently. The Supreme Court has created limits on religious freedom, namely Reynolds vs. US and has withstood over 125 years of case precedents. Good luck with that ‘targeting’ charge, rather legislatures have the power to revise or update existing statutes, whenever it suits their fancy.

  214. I guess Z doesn’t realize that when a religion targets young girls it’s going to run into legal issues. There’s no “freedom” of a religion to abuse kids. Never will be in this country if I have anything to say about it.

    Tanks? Swat teams? Right up there with all of Z’s other fantasy claims. Oh wait — I mean lies. Z wouldn’t know the truth if it bit him on the behind — he’s just a lyin’ for his Lard. And he maintains the lie that he’s Catholic.

    Sorry, Z. but you aren’t lying to frightened sheeple here. Your tactics don’t work in the real world. Try some facts and come back again when you can prove them. We’ll still be here, which is more than all those pro-abuse sites can say.

  215. The last time I checked, there is an aerial photograph of my property on Google Maps. There is no right to “protected airspace.”

    ————————–

    Barbra Streisand tried to sue the California Coastal Project http://www.californiacoastline.org/ for invasion of privacy and she lost.

  216. ZXC: Isn’t freedom of religion an interesting concept? The FLDS do not have to agree with your spiritual wisdom, God and the constitution gave every man the right to chose his own poison.

    —————————————-

    Please quote the part of the US Constitution that gives grown men the right to have sex with underage children.

  217. ZXC is lying and telling whoppers, just like that ole lyimg dog deci duane skinwalker. Tanks? US calvary? LMAO. These lying dogs do provide some humor. Can hardly wait for his next tall tale.

  218. Belle,

    Big Love’s Rhonda was last seen fleeing with the cash Adaleen gave her to not testify against Roman. She hitched a lift to California with a trucker.

    I hope we’ll hear where she ended up in season 5

  219. ZXC said:

    Isn’t freedom of religion an interesting concept? The FLDS do not have to agree with your spiritual wisdom, God and the constitution gave every man the right to chose his own poison.

    They don’t have to agree with the constitution, but they have to follow it. This if where the FLDS is getting in to trouble, not following the laws of the land in which they live.

  220. They don’t have to agree with the constitution, but they have to follow it. This if where the FLDS is getting in to trouble, not following the laws of the land in which they live.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Obedience to the law of the land for any Christian (FLDS claim to be Christian) is mandatory – (Romans 13:1-5)- otherwise known in Catholicism as the Doctrine of “Lex Terrae.” It is a sin to disobey the law of the country you live in unless that law forbids you to preach the Gospel, which is the sole exception. But I don’t have to tell ZXC about Lex Terrae, since he’s a Catholic.

  221. Looks like Cody and the Sisters are moving out of Utah – thinking that Nevada will welcome them – I have a feeling it wont be a bed of roses…. But if they are in Vegas, they might fit in with all the other assorted freaks…

    00000000000000000

    ‘Sister Wives’ Fam — We’re Moving to Nevada!!

    1/18/2011 12:45 AM PST by TMZ Staff

    “Sister Wives” polygamist Kody Brown is gonna need a whole LOTTA moving trucks … ’cause the man with 4 wives and 19 kids is moving his entire family out of the state of Utah … TMZ has learned.

    Sources close to the Brown’s — all 24 of ’em — tell us Kody will be moving the gang to Nevada so he and his wives can “explore new job opportunities.”

    Brown — who was at the center of the felony bigamy investigation in Utah — shouldn’t face as much scrutiny for his living situation in Nevada … where cohabitation between a man and his unlicensed “wives” is not a crime.

    Brown family attorney Jonathan Turley tells us neither Kody nor his wives have been hit with any charges stemming from the Utah investigation.

    As for the move — we’re told the fam should be on the road in the next few days.

    http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/18/sister-wives-polygamy-kody-brown-nevada-utah-moving-tlc/

  222. Having babies with 12 year olds has been against the law in every state in the nation since age of consent laws were first created. Since then, the age of consent has gradually been risen so that it is between 16-18 in most states. So saying that this targets the FLDS is absurd. In fact, by his own words, Warren targeted the law by deliberately assigning under aged brides. He believed (or at least he wrote that he believed) that prosecution of him would bring on the end times.

  223. Isn’t there anyone out there willing to defend ‘Warrants’ indictment as being false? Mr. Perfect wouldn’t stautorially rape a 12 year old child or did he do such a crime? No posters available to proclaim this celestial bliss was by proxy only, nothing sexual occurred. What’s the matter with all of you ‘aiders ‘n’ abbettors’ does the charge make your skin crawl. Well?

    Maybe no one’s civil rights were trampled during the YFZ Ranch rescue, not unless a felony factory of a farm should be protected while young girls are being sexually assaulted and every witness is in league with these evil deeds.

  224. More on the baby cemetery as dictated by Warren Jeffs on January 3, 2004.

    ” The one year old son of Nephi Jeffs and Mary Allred, Richard’s daughter, just passed away at the hospital…Can you call Spilsbury and have them take care of it. Just do a graveside at the baby cemetery.”…

    Can we accept Warren’s own words that there is a baby cemetery in Short Creek..

  225. Good catch, chemist.

  226. More on the baby cemetery issue –

  227. Just gotta laugh at fools. If an APC is a tank, is a child’s swing a rocket launcher?

  228. So what is the prognosis of the polygamy trial in BC? With the biggest proponents, Oler and Blackmore bowing out of arguments, it seems like it has no chance of legalization.

    JMHO

    Anyone else?

  229. Yes, RICO with the affidavits, witnesses and expert testimony of plural life members statements demonstrating a far greater harm is done by recognizing polygyny, the leaders witholding their participation injures their own chances. Simply recognizing bigamy would dramatically impact the greater Canadian society and should be addressed at the ballot box and not the courtroom. The failure to closely focus on the specific form of plural marriage practiced by the FLDS Church, namely arranged marriages, release (divorce), reassignments, pre-eminence and limitless multiple wives are all controlled by the prophet and not legally enforced. Granting polygyny practices that place so much control in the hands of a third-party leader is fraught with harms and abuses beyond the Courts current attention or contemplation. Allowing so much power to be wielded by ‘One Man Rule’ is inherently undemocratic.

  230. My guess on the baby cemetery issue, plus Warren’s direction that women should not be allowed more than a few days to grieve for a dead child, is that the deaths due to birth defects and poor care reflect badly on his choices as Prophet. Choices to put a woman with a close relative, or to deny health care for women and children, or simply to assign women to men who cannot afford to care for them properly. Therefor, the children are buried without ceremony or notice and the women are made to stifle their feelings and keep sweet on the subject. A high infant death rate might cause public services to investigate the community, so if there are no actual records to show that, then there is no basis for an investigation.

    I personally doubt that infanticide is the cause, because that is against basic human nature and is probably as rare there as anywhere.

  231. And Granny, last I heard, no shots were fired on either side. No matter how they try, they can’t make the raid into Waco.

  232. Re : baby cemetery issue –
    I don’t think infanticide is involved.
    I think there MAY be unrecognized genetic diseases (other than fumarase deficiency) that may have caused some infant or fetal demise.
    Additionally, there is apparently only one physician there, a general practitioner, for a sizable population. They are woefully understaffed medically, unless most are seeking medical care on the outside.

  233. I believe their one physician travels to all locations (UT, AZ, etc.) as well.

  234. Those with money get whatever medical needs taken care of on the outside. The so utah area doctors offices are flooded with them.

  235. I cant speak for those at YFZ, but I would expect only the healthiest are mandated to live there so as to keep the drs trips down.

  236. I still term it a rescue out at that FLDS human breeding ranch.

  237. I agree that infanticide is not a common practice among the flds. If it did occur it would probably be a rare occurence. I also never did believe the stories about the high temperature furnace/crematorium. That story had only one source and no colloboiration by anyone else. Thank you Betty.

  238. Last April Doctor Lloyd H. Barlow was fined $3,000Dollars, requred to take both 8-hours of medical ethics and proper clinical records keeping and pass a Texas CME exam. I trust he has done so and he would likely then address his three misdemeanor charges to clear his license. Any repeat offence by him or his cohorts at the YFZ Raunch would open up stiffer charges and consequences. Since Dr. Barlow and his fellow FLDS members remain in good stead with their Prophet, I would say that their chances of repeat offenses is quite high!

    I know that they would wish to be left alone and be trusted but that would fly in the face of common sense and their respective records. First fooled shame on them, twice fooled shame on me.

  239. I don’t trust Dr Barlow any further than I can pee.

  240. tee-hee…that made me laugh–Granny!!!!

  241. well how will anyone know if the Doc helps birth out babies from children. with the high walls at the compound and no birth certificates issued no one will know.

  242. It used to be said that the mormons kept the cleanest, neatest yards and often had nice fences or walls.

  243. How was it discovered the first time? What are they going to do with the surplus boys that are born into their midst? How will they deny the DNA evidence that has convicted the accused so far? Government officials will need to question, inspect and audit their records more closely. Felons are subject to probation and convicted offenders can be questioned more closely than the general public. License today to drive, hunt, operate businesses, vote, etc. need to prove their positive identification(s). Every child at the YFZ Ranch had their fingerprints and other biogenetic information placed into the law enforcement records.

    Future cases will be more easily resolved than in the past.

  244. older anon

    They werent talking about any Fundy mormons…. You havent seen the pics of shortcrock?

    Its about par with cities in mexico.

  245. They werent talking about any Fundy mormons…. You havent seen the pics of shortcrock?
    Its about par with cities in mexico.

    ———————–

    You can go to Google maps and using street view, “drive” all around the Twin Cities. Some of it looks scraggy, some of it looks fairly suburban although kind of bare, and a lot of the houses are hidden behind high walls.

    I much prefer my town, where most of the houses look friendly and inviting.

  246. Yes, good old Google Earth! I’ve been “through the creek” several times. Fascinatin’ place to Google thru!

  247. Remember the lil gal who pulled off the ‘fake baby’ trick to hide the father’s DNA?

  248. anyone else heard the rumor, that Lyle has gone AWOL???

  249. Geeee…..Lyle AWOL just before ‘Warrants’ trial is set for a pre-trial and begin? Maybe the devil made hin do it.

  250. Awol? Is there a warrant out for Lyle or what?

  251. Where did Lyle go ?

  252. Driving around the crick in person is way better. I saw a grown woman hit the deck face first and hide behind a 1 foot wall as I drove by. At 4 way stops the other cars would refuse to go until I went first even if they had the right of way and I was waving them on. (Then they all go to Walmart or Best Buy and act perfectly normal. Strange folk.)

    There are some pretty cool houses if you can google your way up the canyon or around Centennial Park. some of the older mansion type houses have “UEP” in the brickwork. I remember one house in Short Creek used to have water slides in the back yard. I think that’s gone now. There are also several unfinished-abandoned houses in the log cabin-yfz style. Many of the occupied houses leave 1 side unfinished so that it can easily be added onto as the family grows.

  253. Lyle is in texas.

  254. pretrial for warren is the 31st with trial set for feb 21.

  255. Was the new H house at the human breeding ranch built for Lyle?

  256. that’s a darn good question, Granny! does anyone know who’s coming and going from that BIG house?

  257. Poignant testimony in the Canada Reference Case:

    “Former Bountiful resident gives tearful testimony on polygamy

    ‘They just don’t know what they’re doing and the harm they are doing and they do it all in the name of God,’ Oler says…”

    Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Opinion+Former+Bountiful+resident+gives+tearful+testimony+polygamy/4129050/story.html#ixzz1BSAmTBFf
    ———–

    Truman Oler is FLDS Bishop James Oler’s younger brother.

  258. From the Vancouver Sun on today’s testimony in Canada –

    Opinion: Former Bountiful resident gives tearful testimony on polygamy

    ‘They just don’t know what they’re doing and the harm they are doing and they do it all in the name of God,’ Oler says

    VANCOUVER — Truman Oler wept for himself, his family and for all of the lost hopes, dreams and aspirations of the people he left behind in Bountiful, B.C. only a few years ago.

    In the most emotional and compelling testimony so far in the constitutional reference case to determine the validity of Canada’s polygamy law, the 29-year-old spoke Tuesday of growing up in a family with six mothers and 47 children, his mother’s heart-breaking disavowal of him after he left and about how little he knew and how frightened he was of the world outside the fundamentalist Mormon enclave.

    Yet it was when Oler talked about why he decided to testify that his halting words were most powerful.

    From birth, he learned that there are only two choices: Follow the religion, obey its leaders and hope for salvation or be damned to hell.

    Education wasn’t valued. Religion was taught for up to two hours every day at the government-supported, independent school. Reading lessons were from religious books.

    Even though his mother, Memory, is a teacher, she didn’t encourage the youngest of her 15 children to finish high school. In fact, Oler doesn’t recall even knowing that there was such a thing as college.

    What he knew is that like the other boys, he’d most likely spend his life making fence posts for a company owned by Winston Blackmore, who was then bishop of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    At school, he said the boys joked that all they needed to know was how to count to 175. That’s the number of poles in a bundle.

    In the summers when he was 13 and 14, Oler said he worked full-time in the post and pole mill and was paid just $20 every two weeks.

    Oler left school at 16 after his father had died and Blackmore had refused to allow him to play on a minor hockey team. His wage rose to $100 cash every two weeks

    Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Opinion+Former+Bountiful+resident+gives+tearful+testimony+polygamy/4129050/story.html#ixzz1BSDdY48v

  259. I guess we all just realized why Bishop Jim Oler has opted out of his witnessing testimony. Point by point Jim would not be able to credible refute his younger brothers testimony. Two hours a day in school on religious training with public taxes? Truman is one of the very few priesthood men to share his insights and guess what he affirms the family values is a lie and fathers don;t know their own children and groom no relationships with them. Rearing children is women’s work and Dads are away for weeks to months? Truman Oler recounted that only one Canadian Charter was ever taught and he never dreamt of college as a dream, very sad.

  260. He believed (or at least he wrote that he believed) that prosecution of him would bring on the end times.

    Betty said this on January 18, 2011 at 8:12 AM

    End times are a coming, but not because of Uncle Wart.
    I can hear God belly laughing.

    I AM

  261. Yet it was when Oler talked about why he decided to testify that his halting words were most powerful.
    From birth, he learned that there are only two choices: Follow the religion, obey its leaders and hope for salvation or be damned to hell.

    ————————————

    Sickening. How the Lord in Heaven must ache for these used, abused, deceived, and outcast children.

  262. I believe their one physician travels to all locations (UT, AZ, etc.) as well.

    SwissieMom said this on January 18, 2011 at 12:08 PM

    There are two Dr. Barlows. Lehi Barlow and Lloyd.

    Merril Jessop is under the care of Lehi.

  263. O that’s the one who gets him hospitalized if/when Merril’s due in court eh.

  264. Reminds me when is Merril due in Texas’ 51st district court with Judge Walther?

  265. I’m not sure when he’s due, Granny, but I think it won’t be until after Warren’s big day. 🙂

  266. “Oler was paid 20 every two weeks when he was 12-13”

    OK, I dont know about Canada, but in the US, thats illegal child labor and also slave wages.

    Really, a dollar a day? And then he got a raise to ten dollars A DAY?

    Talk about making people feel worthless, just take advantage of them, keep them down and poor.

  267. have any of you read Daphne Branham’s Secret Lives of the Saints ?
    In it she recounts the story of a teenage girl who refused to obey Winston Blackmore’s order when he told her it was time to get married.
    He then sent her to the fence post logging camp in subzero temperatures to work as a cook, and her underpaid her as well. She eventually relented because she thought that marriage would be preferable.

  268. The way the flds treat their youth, male and female, really distresses me. The testimony by Truman Oler wrenches my heart. The poor boy had almost no knowledge of the existence of college and absolutely no opportunity for him to even consider it as an option. The flds consider themselves to be following what Joseph Smith and Brigham Yound did. Actually Joseph and Brigham promoted learning amongst the church members. What is now BYU started in 1862. Joseph Smith started a school in Ohio where the early saints studied Hebrew and other languages. Things the LDS were admonished to learn from the Doctrine and Covenants 88:79

    “Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—”

    Perhaps the flds have deleted this and similar verses from their D&C.

  269. What galls me is that they say there is “free choice” for everyone in their sect.
    There clearly is NO choice.
    Agree to marry the older man they designate or be sent to a logging camp in the freezing cold.
    They don’t educate their members, and then send the members to work at below minimal wage jobs in their businesses.
    This is not free choice.
    This is slavery, right here in North America.

  270. Where’s ZXC to explain how peaceful Bishop Winston Blackmore and James Oler are and why they wish to be left alone in peace and practice deciding everyones life in their flock, how much illegal pay, how limited education is granted, which spouse members shall wed, collect tithe(s) and special assessment(s), where anyone will live and what livelihood they will perform.

    Polygamy practices that regiment members lives to such a heightened degree simply warps the term of ‘Religious Freedom’.

  271. CalJim, I was kind of enjoying the quiet.

  272. Leroy Jessop just got slammed in the Court of Appeals. They said that the trial court was correct in ruling that he is not indigent.

  273. Leroy is too used to having his lies swallowed. Welcome to the real world.

  274. Where’s ZXC to explain how peaceful Bishop Winston Blackmore and James Oler are and why they wish to be left alone in peace and practice deciding everyones life in their flock, how much illegal pay, how limited education is granted, which spouse members shall wed, collect tithe(s) and special assessment(s), where anyone will live and what livelihood they will perform.
    Polygamy practices that regiment members lives to such a heightened degree simply warps the term of ‘Religious Freedom’.

    ———————————————

    The bottom line is that polygyny in a closed community is a numbers game that can only end in corruption.

    There will never be enough females for every male to have multiple wives, so maneuvering for the power needed to score, not Christian love, becomes the driving force.

    All this so these males can reach a “Celestial Kingdom” in which they get, you guessed it, enough power to rule over a whole planet. What is Mormonism other than a religion of personal greed, the opposite of Christ’s teachings that we should be as servants to others.

    For every male who has four wives, three males will have none. What kind of parents exalt a system that guarantees that some or even all of their sons will be forced to remain at the bottom of the barrel?

  275. I know Betty, but the empty cries of ‘Witch Hunt’ and ‘Fishing Expedition’ has resulted in this witches cauldron filled with fish! How so? Why proclaim unabashed innocence and ZXC’s claim to leave the ‘Hole-in-Ground’ gang alone in peace. The FLDS Church held the YFZ Ranch press conference and told the biggest set of lies on the national news press. All of the wives, mothers and women resident at the YFZ denied any ‘Child Brides’ existed, no teen age girls were pregnant or underage plural marriages had transpired. Far from leaving them in peace, I want them all brought to Justice.

    Truman Oler, Brenda Jensen, Carolyn Jessop, ad infinitum have been shunned, spiritually condemned and apostacized from this FLDS Church hierarchy that has released an edict threatening both Canada and the United States. Far from remedying this criminal behavior the intractable defiance is clearly stated. Truman Oler yesterday merely highlighted Flora Jessops claim that this group constitutes a,”Church of Lies”.

  276. MOuse,
    I think it needs to be stressed that where polygamy is not coerced by religion or state it does not appear to be a popular choice by women, therefore a community will nearly always fail to recruit or even sustain polygamy unless it closes itself and resorts to coercion.
    There reason this is important is that some will say well it would work just fine if it weren’t for the closed community aspect.
    If I were a sociologist/anthropologist I would predict that the communities have to close themselves.

  277. regarding finding out if there are other children birthing babies: the only way it was found out before was the infamous raid. Unless there is another raid or a census/CPS worker went in and actually counted every head I really don’t think we will know if there are others going on. If they are, they surely now not leaving the compound and hiding when needed.

    as for: Many of the occupied houses leave 1 side unfinished so that it can easily be added onto as the family grows.
    Synonymous said this on January 18, 2011 at 9:17 PM

    My understanding and may be wrong (pleaes correct if so). Rumor was that one side was left unfinished so they never “finished” the house and therefore didn’t have to pay taxes on it. You don’t have to pay taxes on houses while “under construction.”

  278. HHG, another way it works, rather than with a closed commuity, is when poverty is so bad that people sell their girl children so that the rest of the family can survive, or divorced/abandoned/widowed women must find husbands in order to feed themselves and their children. So the wealthy men have multiple wives and the poor men have none; a situation which promotes violence and social instability. This is the case in some Islamic countries.

  279. Watergirl, I believe you are correct: the tax exempt issue is the primary reason for leaving a home unfinished. It is a side benefit – albeit an important one – that an unfinished side makes it convenient for an addition later on (as Synonymous said).

    It’s possible taxing laws have changed since I was around, but I’m not aware such.

  280. I think the taxing laws have changed E, they now have to pay on the property finished or unfinished.

  281. HHG: I think it needs to be stressed that where polygamy is not coerced by religion or state it does not appear to be a popular choice by women, therefore a community will nearly always fail to recruit or even sustain polygamy unless it closes itself and resorts to coercion.
    There reason this is important is that some will say well it would work just fine if it weren’t for the closed community aspect.
    If I were a sociologist/anthropologist I would predict that the communities have to close themselves.

    ——————————

    Theoretically, you can think of our entire planet as a “closed community,” since any way you look at it, the numbers game is rigged. We are not primitive herd animals, where the alpha male drives off or kills all other males, including his own progeny.

    Of course the numbers could balance out if women were allowed to have multiple husbands – but all you have to do is watch the interview of the Kody Brown family freaking out over that suggestion to understand that this “religion,” from Joseph Smith on down, is based on a system of elite males gaining the power needed to eliminate other males so that they can have access to the most female breeding stock.

    And certainly in this country and most of modern Western civilization you have to close the communities, because most women don’t want to live as second class citizens without the same rights as men.

  282. Betty,
    True so I should modify my prediction that the community will close inward and/or traffic in young women from impoverished nations.

  283. I have a question about Sally Jeffs witnessing to the mental capacity of her daughter and providing the Court an 8th.Grade graduation certificate as proof of her mental competence?

    Does anyone recall that the ‘Twin Fawns’, Fawn Broadbent and the other girl, both had 8th.Grade certificates in Hildale,UT but tested at the 5-6th.Grade level?

  284. We saw for ourselves there was only a scattering of males 12 or older in the 400some children at YFZ human breeding ranch. Obviously elementary schooling was over for those boys who were gone, presumably off to YFZ child slave labor construction camp jobs.

  285. Watergirl: My understanding and may be wrong (please correct if so). Rumor was that one side was left unfinished so they never “finished” the house and therefore didn’t have to pay taxes on it. You don’t have to pay taxes on houses while “under construction.”

    ———————————————

    Now that you mention it watergirl, that was the leading rumor when I lived in San Jorge, but there are certainly some string houses made of mismatching segments that are clearly built decades apart from one another. Now, whenever I see a building that looks like that, I think of Colorado City.

    Does the CPark prophet live in the giant 3-winged house in Centennial Park? (The one between Taylor ave and Taylor Court)

  286. Mexico doesn’t tax unfinish buildings that’s why you see so many with rebar sticking out everywhere.

  287. Thought that this might be of interest – The Affidavit of Investigator John Llewellyn for the Canadian Reference Case

  288. Synonymous, I think CP has twin profits.

  289. Who are the twin prophets of CP, Proud Texan ?

  290. The co-profits of Centennial Park are a Timpson and a Hammon. I think their names are John Timpson and JD or Jedd(?) Hammon.

    Anyway, they are the sons of Alma Delbert Timpson and J. Marion Hammon.

    When Marion Hammon died, the profit position passed to Del Timpson since he was the next in line in the Priesthood Council. Then, when Del Timpson died, instead of the Priesthood profit position going back to Marion Hammon’s son, it was declared that it was now in the Timpson lineage, thus a need for co-profits to keep the peace.

    Since the CP folks had departed ways with “The Work” (which later became the FLDS) over the one-man-rule then I guess it wasn’t that big of a deal to have a Priesthood Council of 7 men and have 2 of them share the profit position.

  291. And one of them does live in that gigantic 3-winged mansion on the hill. I think it is the Hammon co-profit.

  292. Some years ago, the tax assessors in Washington County, Utah wised up to the scam of the FLDS not paying property taxes on their “unfinished” homes and that is no longer the case. They now pay taxes.

    I don’t know about the Mohave County residents in Colorado City, but I would bet that they also now pay property taxes on their “unfinished” homes.

  293. Thanks for the property tax update.

    And, Anon 11:09… it’s Alma Adelbert Timpson. He was familiarly known as Dell, or Uncle Dell.

  294. BorninBrooklyn, John Llewelyn is an amazing man and one of the few ex-polygamists that not only frankly discusses truths about the flawed lifestyle but he helps those entrapped in the ‘Work’.
    He appeared three times in person on ‘Whatloveisthis.tv’ listed on this blodsites right column under ‘Blogroll’. Check out the video programs 3.07, 3.10 and 3.43 of the 2010 Episodes for even more of his honest testimony. Please, don’t share any of this first hand information about polygamy with ZXC, I don’t think she/he can handle the truth.

  295. You are correct E. Texas. Just after I made my post and read it online, I realized that I had said Delbert instead of Adelbert. I sure wish this blog had an “edit” button.

    But, I guess that would only work (if there WAS an edit button) if I was logged on and not just ANON – LOL

    Oh, the penalties of remaining anonymous!

    So, was Marion Hammon referred to as Uncle Marion?

  296. Yes, we always called him Uncle Marion.

    I agree with you about an Edit Button. I wish, I wish!

  297. Yes CaJim, the What Love is This videos featuring John Llewellyn are an excellent resource. I’ve seen them.

    Thought that this might interest some –
    Affidavit of Prof Nicholas Bala for the Canadian Reference Case –

  298. So much litigation – its almost like an end times for abusers!

    Jeremy Johnson made the news again, he got his “assets frozen”

    —————-

    “A federal judge in Las Vegas has frozen the assets of St. George, Utah, businessman Jeremy Johnson and scores of associated companies — a freeze giving the Federal Trade Commission a chance to seize the assets for the benefit of consumers allegedly defrauded by Johnson and the companies.

    A lengthy temporary restraining order freezing the assets of Johnson and associated companies was secretly issued Jan. 13 by U.S. District Judge Kent Dawson. It was unsealed Tuesday.

    Dawson also appointed Robb Evans of Robb Evans and Associates LLC as temporary receiver to supervise the corporate defendants sued by the FTC and the assets of Johnson.

    Robb Evans’ company says it has offices in Los Angeles, Las Vegas and Greenwich, Conn., and for years has been involved with supervising enterprises upon appointments suggested by the U.S. Department of Justice, the Securities and Exchange Commission, the state of California Department of Financial Institutions and the FTC.”

    =====================

    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/jan/18/las-vegas-judge-freezes-assets-utah-businessman-fr/

  299. Yesterday at the reference case in Vancouver, FLDS witness # 7 agreed to testify without anonymity. She identified herself as Alina Darger.
    She thought that polygamy should be decriminalized because this would allow people to feel safe reporting crimes without risk of prosecution and it would make them feel socially accepted. She said that her son was reluctant to pursue his career as a football player because he could be “outed” as a polygamist. Under cross examination, she admitted that another member of her family (young man with the last name Darger) was a basketball player who was “out” already as the son of a polygamist family without prosecution or fear, and she also admitted that she was not hiding as she does the lecture circuit as a polygamy “educator”
    What spinners these people are !

  300. S
    thanks for the link to the Bala affidavit – an awesome read.
    Everyone on these boards should read Bala’s affidavit!!!

  301. Yes, thanks for the link S. I did read the affidavit and fully concur about the harmful effects of polygamy.

  302. UNSEALED

    Document ordering Jeremy Johnson’s assets frozen

    http://media.lasvegassun.com/media/pdfs/blogs/documents/2011/01/18/johnson1182011.pdf

  303. It seems that the FLDS in Canada have more liberties than those in the U.S. For example, they still go to public school and apparently they can play sports, and the girls aren’t all wearing the same dress in pastel colors. I’m guessing that these are the differences between Warren/Winston groups???

  304. Why are the FLDS so tolerant of WSJ? I thought they were just blindly following their religious teachings, but in studying their history, they have time and again shown that they do NOT just blindly follow leadership that they don’t agree with. When Rulon took over, it was supposed to be Marion Hammon, but they didn’t like him so they decided to follow Rulon instead. When John Y Barlow died, Short Creek didn’t like the Allreds so they followed LeRoy Johnson instead. This goes all the way back to the manifestos, where they went as far as to get themselves ex-ed from the LDS church because they disagreed with the leaderships decision on that subject.

    Why would they choose now to not distance themselves from this new leadership that tears up families, takes all their money to NOT share with the community, curses the community, gets their land taken away, gets their schools taken away, marries their 12 year old daughters, blows their cover, brings down the wrath of the law, etc.

    They have turned on past leaders who didn’t pull half that crap. Why didn’t they tell him where to stick it and follow Winston Blackmore or someone else instead? That’s what they would have done in the past. Why do they so gracefully take all his crap now? It makes no sense.

  305. Synonymous,
    What makes you think that Winston is any better than Warren ?
    Winston may allow people to dress as they please, but he still
    sends those women who don’t agree to marry as he sees fit to
    logging camps in subzero temperatures.

  306. LOL

    Kody and the Sisters blew eight tires on the drive to Sin City, taking 30 hours instead of the standard 6 or so… Guess he was carrying too much baggage!

    Welcome to the Freak show in Vegas, Kody!

    http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/19/sister-wives-kody-brown-tlc-las-vegas-utah-county-attorney-lehi-investigation-gambling-sin-city/

  307. Because Winston is the only other serious candidate I know of besides the ancient “Uncle Fred” Jessop, who would have soon been passing the leadership to one of those 2 anyway.

    Winston may have his flaws, to say the least, but he has a long way to go to catch up to Warren. How could he be any worse? The Church was in great shape (relatively speaking) before Warren drove it into the ground.

  308. The school they go to isn’t a public school as we view it, that is what I’ve understood.

  309. In the link, please find the affidavit of Prof Joseph Henrich on the effect of polygyny on societies in which it is widely practiced.

    http://www.scribd.com/full/43998611?access_key=key-dbo566jq7npq5zqkiit

  310. Synonymous, You are looking at it from the reverse angle. You are asking on each division, “why didn’t side A choose side B?” Well, those on side B did. For example, Winson does have a small following that got fed up with Warren. Centennial has a following that didn’t like the way things were going in the 80’s. If the FLDS were to split again — and they will, sooner or later — there will still be those that go along with the nonsense today, and those that get tired of it; but which side will call themselves something else and which side will call themselves the FLDS. Will the FLDS stay the radical or become moderate. Even if the side calling themselves the “FLDS” become moderate, there will still be the radical branch.

  311. Synonymous: They have turned on past leaders who didn’t pull half that crap. Why didn’t they tell him where to stick it and follow Winston Blackmore or someone else instead? That’s what they would have done in the past. Why do they so gracefully take all his crap now? It makes no sense.

    ————-

    Seems like Warren did a lot of purging to get rid of any who might oppose him.

  312. I’ve watched videos of both Winston and Warren, and I am not saying that either one is better or worse than the other, but honestly Warren is downright creepy – I think he is off his rocker.

  313. Winston simply strums his guitar, allows his followers to wear modest clothing as they wish rather than the “uniform”, and smiles nicely for the camera, putting a “folksy” face on his regime. He is terrific at public relations.

    Take a look at the Nat Geo special on him. He is almost as abusive as the FLDS is when it comes to money, his businesses, and the coercive marriage issue.

  314. I don’t disagree with you when you say Warren is off his rocker, I think that too. I hope he never spends another day outside prison.

  315. The only way you could be worse than Warren is if physical torture or physical punishment were wide spread. Like the Taliban; public floggings, beheadings for minor offenses like insulting Warren or an unmarried woman being alone with a man outside her family.

  316. S. another great link!

  317. Keep ’em coming, S. I’ve been reading them and outraged, horrified and baffled in turn. (Outraged at the pain, horrified at the abuse and human rights violations, baffled that people just don’t GET IT!)

    🙂

  318. Testimony of a hypocrite –

    http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/canada/article/749210–polygamy-law-was-greatest-fear-plural-wife–page1?sailthru_m=h2a

  319. For the past two+ years, I have tried to interpret what ‘Warrant’ was orchestrating from within the FLDS Church. He was attempting to pull the plug on Short Creek and depart with his ‘Chosen’ sect members. The selected FLDS members allowed to reside at the ‘Lands of Refuge’, specifically Eldorado, Mancos and Pringle, were informed in far greater details about secret prophetic vision/revelation. Only the fervent few or sweetest of the ‘Keep Sweet’ believers were more fully informed and chosen to be ‘Temple builders’.

    Jettisoning the balance of FLDS members back in Short Creek and elsewhere was envisioned, the flock was to be scattered and not gathered. Unfortunately, with ‘Warrants’ arrest, the Temple desecrated, UEP Trust assets seized and the Schleicher County Grand Jury indictments has stranded the FLDS Church and it’s members in limbo. The vision has run aground and is stuck in storming seas and sinking. The UEP Trust isn’t likely to be brought back under their control, ‘Warrant’ is not likely to be freed from imprisonment, anytime soon or ever, and the public exposure has awakened the ‘Beast’ with consequences that are not fully felt/known.

  320. yes, I think Wareen purged all who wre not blindly following. I do wonder if some short creek folks are waiting to see the outcome of the UEP trust before they make a move. If they get their house deeded to them and have a choice they may then decide to try something new.

  321. Even though warren has scorned the Short Creekers he still depends on their “consecrations” and their marriage age girls(12 and up). It is a case of; he don’t want them, but he still needs them.

  322. wtergirl, I think that is exactly why the FLDS leadership is fighting the UEP proceedings so much and playing stalling tactics; they know the flock would scatter.

  323. Cement, regarding your reply to Synonymous, well said!

    “”””””””
    “Synonymous: They have turned on past leaders who didn’t pull half that crap. Why didn’t they tell him where to stick it and follow Winston Blackmore or someone else instead? That’s what they would have done in the past. Why do they so gracefully take all his crap now? It makes no sense.
    “””””””””

    Simple. It’s what most of them have always done. All schisms, when they inevitably happen, retain basic beliefs and tenets. Critical thinking has been generationally beaten and mind-controlled out of them.
    .

    There are numerous rationales for following WSJ. I’ll pose a few (read personal) thoughts and theories – which could possibly lead to jeering me off this blog:

    1. They really believe the end-time is near. He has whipped them into sufficient fervor to be “ready” before “the one mighty and strong” returns (i.e., Joseph Smith) to set things in order… etc., etc. He reinforces the maxim: Go above and beyond anything we’ve ever done before. God will protect us! We, the chosen few, will be lifted up out of the imminent destructions. It’s the old fear-based “do or die” rationale – righteous warriors serving in the army of god.
    .

    2. There is nothing like persecution (real or perceived) to afford that superior manifestation of being one of “the chosen few.” One of the easiest cons to convince believers is that persecution is a sign they’re right/righteous. The more righteous we are, the stronger will be the buffetings from Satan. Tangible proof! Keep doing what you’re doing only more radically.

    ….(a) Along with that is for a leader to be perceived as a martyr. WSJ has admirably (to followers) fitted himself in that role. Personally, I have no doubt that in his mind he’s quite at peace with being the incarcerated sufferer. He’s a master of mind over matter, first of all for himself, which by projection makes him all the more believable to followers who have been manipulated over generations into not doing their own thinking or taking personal responsibility.
    .

    3. Perhaps WSJ is offering himself as a sacrificial lamb for the greater good. Don’t forget he is quite intelligent. Perhaps he embarked on a well-thought-out radical path to take a leaderless people (his father being “the last man”), in an altruistic effort to ultimately quash this flawed religious lifestyle. His father, well before his death, may have been a motivating conspirator.

    4. WSJ is conducting a crazed fascist social experiment to see if he will be seen as Satan or savior – by FLDS followers – knowing his own salvation is/was already forfeit.

    I could go on… I could say all kinds of things about this that would make me a pariah far beyond the FLDS. But here’s the bottom line: WSJ is just a symptom of a much bigger societal problem.

    All our indignation and outrage at the abuses, the inherent human rights issues, and the defiant law-breaking won’t change my opinion that what we do or say as outsiders will be no more than the touch of a feather on the FLDS canvas compared to a wider real-change brush that must be applied from within.

    Is WSJ either a knowing or unknowing actor in major changes away from the abuses he’s currently perpetrating – fighting fire with fire as it were? Only time will tell. In the meantime, we must be satisfied that our judicial system will extract its dues.

  324. Yes Chemist the vision has been upset in midstream. ‘Warrant’ when captured still had one foot on land and the other within the creek. Faced with the onslaught of lawsuits, indictments and trust disputes, the need for tithings is more critical than in the past. Their control of the major UEP Trust asset has been lost. A physical schism or scattering has taken place with the ‘Lands of Refuge’ being located in Texas, South Dakota, Colorado, Idaho and Nevada.

    The Canadian Supreme Court case will have another schism effect if anti-polygamy staute is affirmed. With the prophet in jail and the FLDS Church scattered, controlling the whole has become more unwieldy and doubtful. ‘One Man Rule’ is presently the power base but the conviction of WSJ would expose the faultline of future control. Individual bishops in control on the respective ‘Land of Refuge’ enclaves will, like Winston Blackmore, rival the present power base.

  325. I wonder how much of the “faith” is actually genetic. Maybe the people with backbone are being winnowed out.

  326. E. Texas far from guffawing your thoughts, I think you can’t truly grasp what has, is and will happen with the FLDS Church, if you don’t look at events through their religious lense. They are an oligarchy theocracy that will follow their prophet, bishops and elders religiously, it is who they are and what all this turmoil has been all about. The constitution, courts and ‘gentile’ government authorities are not in control of their plans, actions or loyalties.

    We define them by our secular viewpoint, legalistic equations and Christian values and miss their truer motives entirely. They follow the celestial laws, God’s ‘mouth'(prophet) and their fundamentalist doctrine first and completely, they know how to “Keep Sweet”!

  327. Can’t presume to speak to your first sentence, Betty.
    To your second sentence: that too!

  328. CAJim, having been there and done that, I can grasp a whole lot. Yes, we can define by our own honed viewpoints. But who can truly get inside the mind of a sociopath??? What we can do is apply the law of the land.

  329. E Texas, I’ve read articles about genetic markers that show some people are risk takers and some are not. Too much risk taking and you have a criminal, or someone who died saying “Hey, bubba, watch this.” Too little risk taking and you have people who will stay in a situation that is a threat to them because they perceive change as worse. If you keep running off those who will speak up and then breeding those who stay….

  330. Betty, I think I read similar articles a long time ago. Thanks for that excellent reminder!

  331. E.Texas I get the ‘EndTime’ motive, being of the ‘Elect’ and following Mr. Perfection. Yesterday two independent fundaqmentalists, namely Alina Darger and Mary Batchelor testified on the goodness of polygamy. They both disavow arranged marriages and ‘Child Brides’, even though both practices go back to their churches very earliest roots.

    How do you feel about the women of the FLDS Church whom lend next week their full faith and support of the ‘Principal’ and whether they are victims or co-conspirators? Deconstructing these enclaves, I think must include indictments, arrests and convictions of them, also, to truly arrive at a legal resolution.
    Currently, not one female abettor is charged with any unlawful action.

  332. CAJim, put in the simplest terms, the women are both: victim co-conspirators. How many humans of just about any stripe will cry, “I was only doing as I was instructed.” Or think about the so-called Stockholm syndrome. Yes, society has incarcerated those kinds of victim co-conspirators in the past.

    But let’s think about this.

    Is it a viable ‘legal resolution’ to arrest, convict and incarcerate THOUSANDS of adult female (and I’ll include male) victim co-conspirators? Can our judicial system pull that off let alone provide enough beds in an already overcrowded prison system? Can society deal justly, humanely, with THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of “orphaned” children with profound psychological and educational (to name a few) problems?

    How do you or we answer that?

  333. I agree that there is not a just way to prosecute all polygamists. But I think a few women who made bridal clothes for their 12-14 year old daughters ought to rot in jail. I think that would be an excellent wake up call. If this were a non religious setting and a woman helped with a ritual and costumes to sell her daughter’s virginity to the highest bidder, you betcha she’d go to jail along with the men. Why does the religious context make this any different? Why is it OK to sell your daughter for salvation, but not to sell her for meth?

  334. Agree with you totally Betty. If a woman (or man) collaborates with others in giving an underage bride away, or if she (or he) collaborates with a coercive marriage at any age, she (or he) should be prosecuted. Anyone acting as a celebrant for a coercive or underage marriage should be brought up on charges as well.

  335. Betty, I agree with you 100% – taking a few women would be an excellent wake-up call. Hopefully that would make the men think twice too – although belief is pretty hard-coded right now.

    And you are absolutely right that a religious context is totally wrong, wrong, wrong. There is NO excuse for selling out our daughters! Evil!

  336. There really needs to be an organized effort to educate school children in communities like Short Creek regarding their civil rights as American citizens – such as their right of self determination regarding their marital partners.

  337. Introducing more socialization – little by little, providing more oversight for a rounder education (including sex education) and never, never again allowing a girl to marry before eighteen (I’d vote for twenty-one) would go a long way as a start toward thwarting current abuses and allowing individuation.

  338. Unfortunately it appears that the flds are moving away from increased socialization and towards a more insular environment. This is evidenced by the withdrawal from public schools and by the lands of refuge where the flds mingle very little with gentiles or apostates.

  339. Legally acting against all involved parents in the newer enclaves, like Texas, South Dakota and Colorado needs to be enacted or the practice of polygamy will be spread out upon unsuspecting communities like Eldorado Schleicher County. Half-measures invite polygamists resolve to fight on in their illicit actions. You have seen the latest YFZ Ranch aerial pictures?

    Should over 400+ children be living on the YFZ Ranch in residence, once felony(s) have been proven to have transpired there and the resolve demonstrated by the FLDS Church members, from their bishop down to their ‘Child Brides’, none of whom show any remorse or give any witness to wrongdoings?

  340. I think one of the reasons for choosing Texas is that they will not force the children to be educated. In many states, the local school board would be all over them to prove compliance with minimum levels of education.

  341. I came back from reading E-Texas earlier on the magnitude of the problem to write Betty’s statement:
    Mother’s who participated in pimping out 12-14 year olds (16?) should be prosecuted.

    also new, smaller sites should be fully prosecuted so they then don’t grow into a “they are too big to deal with problem”

    Also agree with S – should have required education oversight

  342. OMG!! You all are bigots!! Reading your solutions to the problem here, frankly, scare the hell out of me…The answer for you people is right up Stalin and Hitlers alley. You can’t stamp out FLDS no matter how hard you try, the more you enact your solutions, the more resolve there will be. Throughout history, when you try to impose your own will on people, it just makes them settle in and kick at you when it’s convenient..This land is founded upon the principles of live and let live, you are all a bunch of old hens (and roosters) cackling over how you think it aught to be done..I am appalled at your anxiousness to deprive people of the rights they have to live what they believe is right.
    Ya, I know what your going to turn around and throw in my face now, get ready, set, go “But, But, what about the young girls that don’t have a choice?, what about the young thrown away “lost boys”, what about the babies being killed? blah blah blah blah…The Raid on the YFZ was proven to be a hoax, some lady calling in a hoax call, where was anyone of those people begging to be helped? Where is even a one of them down on their knees kissing your asses for helping them escape the place? Where, is the children that were so profoundly grateful to be rescued that they didn’t want to go back to their mothers? Where is the lost boy that is truly complaining that he was kicked out for the reason of old men getting young ladies? Every single one of them have either left on their own cause they couldn’t live up to the standard they were asked to, or kicked out because of their imbibing in inappropriate behavior in their families organization or structure. Where, oh where is the justifiable reason to rape these people of their fundamental rights to practice what they believe? You all are horrifically ignorant on your history lessons throughout time. “But, But, they don’t have a right” Thats exactly what Stalin, Mao, Hitler etc all said, they don’t act the way I would like them to act, they don’t think like I would like them to think, they don’t believe like I would like them to believe, kill em all!! You all go pat yourselves on the back for your self idealization, yet, in the end, you are nothing but a bunch of cluckers.

  343. The testimomy in the Canadian case has been interesting to read. Thanks for the links.

  344. Anonymous 5:36 pm –
    Don’t like it here – don’t read then,my friend.
    You have NO idea what you are talking about, comparing us to Hitler.
    HOW DARE YOU!
    My grandmother’s family in Germany during WWII helped Jews escape from Germany dressed in monk’s clothing with phony baptismal certificates.
    For that, they were rewarded with execution and some of them had their children tortured and disabled by the Nazis, but none of them would tell where the Jews were and how they got them out of the country.
    How dare you compare the FLDS to the Jews.
    The Jews weren’t engaging in coercive marriage of underage children and had not done anything to deserve what was done to them EVER

  345. Isn’t your blah, blah, blah the same as cluck, cluck, cluck 5:36 pm?

    Where oh where is your education?
    You don’t know what you don’t know.

  346. for Anonymous @ 5:36

    1. Regardless of the original call being a hoax, there was real abuse going on. The Texas prosecutions so far are proof. The abuse is undeniable.

    2. You state that many here hold the position that we should “kill em all” (those are your words). I have never seen that discussed here and would be appalled if it were. Can you show me where anyone here said that?

    3. The real problem is the abuse associated with polygamy. Some people that post here are former flds and they know what they’re talking about–they’re experts. If you want to hear more about the abuses, read the testimony coming out of the Canadian hearing. Very enlightening. I’m looking forward to hearing what the Canadian government decides.

  347. Anon@5:36, you and your religion don’t have the right to break the laws of the state and/or nation in which you live. No religion does. That’s the fact. You and all those like you who are married to more than one woman, or in the case of a woman, married to a man who has more than one wife, are breaking the law. Once you decide to break the law then you have to face to consequences. That’s the bottom line.

    As for all those who didn’t ask for help when they had the chance, it would take a lot and be very difficult to overcome the threat of you soul being damned to hell. I’m not sure any of them have the fortitude required to stand up and tell what a bunch of crap the religion is that puts such fear into it’s followers.

    You don’t follow Jesus and God, you follow your profit who is raking in the money while most of the followers live in poverty. How come it is that you seem to live in a hovel in the Crick while the ones he’s deemed righteous are living in Texas. I guess you just haven’t tithed enough or else you don’t have the beautiful daughters to donate to the profit as a wife to get you into Zion.

    As for the reference to Stalin, Mao and Hitler, Warren Jeffs and his teachings are much closer to those 3 than any of us in the outside world. I go to church and have never once been told that all the other religions out there are damned to hell because they don’t believe exactly like we do. I’m not going to hell if I decide to go to the Methodist church or the Lutheran church. As long as I believe in Jesus, I’m going to be OK.

    I’m not sure what planet you think you’ll have in the afterlife, but the Bible specifically states that there won’t be marriage in heaven. You’ve been fed a fairytale and have bought it hook, line and sinker.

    BTW, I’ve been to the YFZ Ranch, I’ll bet that’s more than you can say.

  348. Anonymous 5:36 pm
    Your lack of education is showing, which proves our point. You cannot even spell correctly.

  349. Anon 5:36,

    You are wasting you time. Trying to reason with the hardcore anti-polygamy crowd is like trying to reason with a Mormon Zealot: in 1 ear and out the other.

    You raise some good points, but the mob is about to rip you a new one.

    This is a great site for information and links. It is not a great site for expressing a viewpoint that goes against the hardcore anti-polygamy beliefs. In their eyes, if you don’t completely agree with them, you might as well join the FLDS. $20 says you are about to be called Duane, just like anyone else who dare speak against them. You will be called Duane, even though that is in direct violation of FLDS TEXAS message board rule number 3: “No “outing” anonymous posters. That includes guessing at someone’s real identity”

  350. Let me get this straight – the follower of a malicious racist and bigot, Warren Jeffs, just arrived here to tell us what bigots we all are. The man who thinks people of African descent are all damned.
    But we are the bigots.

    Got it.
    Anon 5:36 pm needs a reality check.

  351. Anonymous 5:36
    Others have touched on the convictions based on DNA evidence so demolish your “it was just a hoax call”.
    You also state that none of the women (female children were complaining) – you need to read up on what sexual abuse is and the dynamics of how it is reported.
    Finally you state that the “lost” boys could just have failed to live up to the norms of the FLDS society. Well you know what – that does not absolve the FLDS society from taking care of those children. Tossing them out is called child abandonment. and it is illegal. Forcing them to leave and then saying – see they left on their own is emotionally and intellectually dishonest. They are still your children and YOU need to financially support them as they try to make their way in a strange world.

  352. No, Anon 5:36 pm is not Duane. Duane can at least spell.

  353. Does anyone here really believe that Anon 5:36 pm is not FLDS ?
    The lack of education is proof positive for me.

  354. If you bet $20 that someone would think he’s Duane, then you’d lose. Duane had a decent education and a very distinctive writing style.

    I did not read any good points. He’s just venting. There’s a difference.

  355. “…what about the young girls that don’t have a choice…”

    Soooo, Anon 5:36………

    What about the young girls who don’t have a choice?

  356. Actually, the law is pretty specific. If their age is young enough, it doesn’t matter if they jump on you naked and beg like crazy, it’s still a felony.

  357. Betty, I think versions of your last post have been used by molesters for years….SHE came on to ME! SHE wanted it! It isn’t MY fault! I’M the victim! blah blah blah blah…

  358. I want my $20 bucks cuz I know it isn’t Duane. Come on Anon@6:31, cough it up.

  359. Yep MC119, I’ll bet those 12, 13 and 14 year old tie those old men up, strip them nekkid and then have their way with them.

  360. Affidavit of Professor Marci Hamilton, Chair of Public Law, Benjamin Cardozo School of Law for the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy-

  361. Affidavit # 2 of Professor Marci Hamilton, in response to the affidavit of Professor Jonathan Turley

  362. Well I’ve been called Duane on a few occasions, so thanks for commending my education and writing style. You guys rock!

    I guess I owe Anon 5:36 $20.

  363. Fork it over, none of us believed you were Duane.

  364. Anon@5:36, come out come out where ever you are. I would like your response to the DNA that has convicted 7 so far, sending Raymond to the Boyd Unit, Leroy to the Wynne Unit, Emack to the Ware Unit, Lehi to the Diboll Unit, Abram to the Roach Unit, Keate to the Stevenson Unit and Dutson to the Schleicher County jail. Not sure which Unit Warren will get sent to, but I’m sure they’ll make room for his somewhere.

  365. Anon@7:16, it’s not a compliment.

  366. Shame shame on 5:36.

  367. Affidavit # 2 of Prof Joseph Henrich for the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy –

  368. ProudTexan

    I don’t believe I used the word “compliment.”

    Belle

    Please use your superior education towards your own reading comprehension. Both times I clearly bet that particular poster (Anon@5:36) $20, not you. I also referred to he/she in the 3rd person, indicating that I am a different Anonymous poster. Never did I bet that anyone would be calling ME Duane.

    I learned long ago to stay out of the Polygamy/ anti-polygamy debate. I am interested in the story, and I am against the abuse, underage marriages, bleeding the beast and Warren in general. I could care less about the polygamy, Mormonism, or any of the other FLDS characteristics that make all the hardcore feminists cringe. Heck, honestly, I would enjoy practicing Hugh Hefner’s brand of polygamy. I would move down the road from the cougar ranch.

  369. Anon,
    Maybe you should check your reading comprehension. I didn’t say who you were to fork it over to….

  370. Statement of Beyond Borders for the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy

  371. Well Anon@7:52, if you plan on giving it to Anon @5:36 you might as well just hand it over to Warren. Just sayin!!!

  372. Wow, Marci Hamilton, wow !!!!!!

  373. Opening statement of the Canadian Coalition for the Rights of Children in the Reference Case –

  374. Hi administrator
    Can we have a thread that contains all of the Canadian Law Case links to documents so that if we want to come back and find them they are not buried in discussion thread?

    The documents appearing for the case are very compelling and cover much of the discussion here and may very well have implications for future court cases in the U.S.

    Thanks!

  375. FLDS Texas Admins – Feel free to contact me for assistance.

  376. Well, that round went to Proud Texan, IMHO.

  377. Touche, Proud Texan!

  378. HHG, Post started, Born in Brooklyn, would you please put your documents there also.

  379. I agree with HHG that a separate thread with all of the links of the Canadian hearing documents gathered in one place would be very helpful.
    Thanks for considering this.

  380. Will do, FLDS Texas

  381. Those who call us “anti-polygamist” bigots and shrill feminists assume that the main or only reason one can argue against polygamy is some sort of sexual hang up.

    The documents making the light of day from the Canadian Trial make it very clear that sex and marriage are not equivalent. One could be a swinger, highly sexually active and still see that society as a whole is harmed by the institution of polygamy.

  382. Since I am not the one doing the work it is easy to make suggestions.

    How about a right hand permanent link under favorite blogs that takes us to the dictations of Warren and another to the Canadian law?

    Thanks for the consideration again!!!!!!

  383. I wasn’t trying to top Proud Texan. That being said, I bet if I spelled like him (nekkid, sayin) Betty would use that as a basis to destroy my credibility by deeming me an uneducated poster. However, when Proud Texan does it, she crowns him champion. I detect the anti-polygamy advocate would be declared the winner by the anti-polygamy mob, regardless of what was said or how it was spelled. This is the reason why I don’t think it is possible to actually have an intelligent, rational discussion on that particular topic in this forum. It’s like being a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking-chairs.

  384. Anon, I’ve always used nekkid and Betty has been around me enough to know that. the “sayin” part is a saying, “Just sayin”. It’s slang. Taught to me by kids. They also say “that’s what she said” all the time. It’s just slang talk. I can assure you that I’m totally educated and I’m not a he.

  385. Anony 8:38

    So what might be an intelligent rational statement of the benefits of polygamy to society as a whole?

    What might be an intelligent rational statement demolishing the convictions of the majority of the adult males at the YFZ ranch?

    Haven’t seen much intelligent rational statements put forth yet.

  386. An intelligent rational discussion based on research data does occur here. I can attest to that. I am still waiting for an objective medical peer reviewed research article to demonstrate that polygyny benefits women in the opinion of women who actually are in polygamous marriages.

  387. Well, Anon 5:36 sure went into orbit over two little points, Firstly there is no religious freedom or right that allows anyone to break the law and claim they are justified by their religious practices. (See: Reynolds vs. US)

    Religious freedom couldn’t have possibly included bigamy when ‘Freedom of Religion’ was granted in our Constitution because Joseph Smith hadn’t even had the revelation, yet but I digress.

    Secondly, placing limits on any right (imaginary or not) can be checked & balanced by the courts if Constitutional rights have been infringed. Reynolds vs. US has been precedent caselaw since 1878 and has withstood numerous contests, including Lawerence vs. Texas, which the US Supreme Court told Rodney Holm they simply weren’t interested in hearing because his claims were BASELESS!

    So ends another childhood fantasy of Anon 5:36 that the FLDS Church has been denied their Coinstitutional right (that doesn’t exist, has never existed and no future legislature shows any liklihood of passing into law).

  388. I could ignore bad spelling and grammar if there were good logic and facts behind it. Haven’t seen that yet.

  389. Well said CAJim, there is no Constitutional right to break the law.

  390. Anyone but me find it interesting the hysterical insistence that education equals genocide? They’re really, really scared of these kids having a full, complete, empowering education, aren’t they?

    Guess what FLDS and other religious abusers — one of these days the world will stand up and demand human rights for all. Human rights outweigh religious rights any day.

  391. Doesn’t Warren go back to court on Monday? Maybe folks are just a tad antsy.

  392. Yes, I don’t understand the education – equals – annihilation argument either. After college, graduate school, and post graduate work I still believe in, love, and serve God. Nothing I have learned has changed that. Why be threatened by exposure to different people and different ideas? If what they believe is true and life enhancing, the members of their sect will return to the community even after exposure to outside influences and ideas encountered during the educational process.
    Fear of exposure to outsiders is one of the cardinal features of a cult.

  393. Vicky Prunty of Tapestry Against Polygamy speaks out on her polygamous marriage with her former husband and Mary Batchelor

    http://www.salon.com/life/hot/1998/07/29hot.html

  394. Rowena Erickson on life in the Kingston polygamy group –

    http://www.salon.com/life/hot/1998/07/28hot.html

  395. “Why be threatened by exposure to different people and different ideas? If what they believe is true and life enhancing, the members of their sect will return to the community even after exposure to outside influences and ideas encountered during the educational process.
    Fear of exposure to outsiders is one of the cardinal features of a cult.”

    S, you just said exactly what I’ve been preaching for years!

    But, like all cults, it’s got to stay isolated from the wide “wicked” world or they will lose all those young women. Cardinal feature, indeed!

  396. Winston simply strums his guitar, allows his followers to wear modest clothing as they wish rather than the “uniform”, and smiles nicely for the camera, putting a “folksy” face on his regime. He is terrific at public relations.

    Take a look at the Nat Geo special on him. He is almost as abusive as the FLDS is when it comes to money, his businesses, and the coercive marriage issue.

    Anon The Younger said this on January 21, 2011 at 7:20 AM

    Amen to that, Anon The Younger!

    When I met Uncle Wink, he was SO charismatic almost to a point that he was flirting with me. I was attractive, but obviously too old for his taste – I was well over 30.

    But he was charming and engaging. Probably totally fake, but if you are young, naive and not “worldly” (meaning having grown up in a “closed society”) then I would say, from my personal experience, that you could come away “smitten” by Winston’s charm. Although his charm was PHONY!

  397. Anonymous 8:38 PM

    I’m sorry you’re having a difficult time of it here. The key is to not take everything personally. Just lighten up and talk about things you know or think and keep an open mind to the feedback; you know it’s coming. Ask questions and try to answer questions asked of you – or say you can’t or why you don’t want to. I promise, your brain won’t fall out of an open mind.

    BTW, your last sentence at 8:38 made me chuckle:
    It’s like being a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking-chairs.

    (I love cats; I would never knowingly injure a cat’s tail under my rocking chair.)

  398. Those of us out here in the free world know those common slang expressions seen above.

  399. This week I participated in state and federally mandated annual trainings for infection control, standards for reporting of child abuse and documentation standards, among others. Sometimes I even have to pay for the privilege of taking these trainings. I must participate in these activities to maintain professional standing. Please don’t think I’m complaining, I understand the need for government regulators to ensure the public safety.
    What I don’t understand is why certain posters here think it is akin to genocide to suggest that a mandatory, non – discriminative program of education be required in certain states (example Utah, Arizona) which apprises children of their civil rights as American citizens to self determination in matters of marriage and reproduction.
    If the state has the right to compel a doctor to take a training to remind them to wash their hands in the interest of public safety, the state also has the right to assert that their young school age constituents are apprised of their rights and protections by educators.

  400. You well know why they don’t want children to know. Don’t we all.

  401. The patriarch won’t have it!

  402. Any school district which accepts money from the states of Utah and Arizona should be required to participate in a mandatory program of education for all children offered statewide which informs the children of their right to make a choice regarding their marital or sexual partner free of coercion. These children also should be informed about the risks of teenage pregnancy.

  403. Maybe the problem is that the FLDS cult has grown a long tail and Warren likes to wander around on porches?

  404. Pat O’Connor has a new post on his blog

    http://worldpolygamy.blogspot.com/

  405. ” This is the reason why I don’t think it is possible to actually have an intelligent, rational discussion on that particular topic in this forum. ” Anonymous 8:38 PM last night.

    Still waiting for an attempt at intelligent rational discussion. That would involve facts, scientific references, logically constructed argument. It does not involve insults, stating conclusions without any backup, vague references to the Constitution, etc.

  406. Wasn’t that a curious one, Betty! It thinks it is somehow rational and intelligent to demand that others go stupid and irrational.

  407. The articles, testimony and convictions are little pebbles that shatter the mirror of illusion and myth put up by polygamists.

    The FLDS response was nothing but hot air – as are so many posts of supporters of polygamy.

    I too would like to see any real tangible argument for anything positive that polygamy does. It doesnt exist.

    In fact I’ve read back to documentation going back over 150 years, even to the time Joe Smith was denying it:

    “What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.

    I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience”

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/smithboastingandpolygamydenial.htm

  408. Anon 5:36 says, America was founded on the principal of,’ Live and Let Live’ but that doesn’t apply to FLDS Church members who are taught that ‘One Man Rule’ and “Keep Sweet” are their guiding principals. What hypocrites. Leave us alone and we will be at peace. At peace to own your wives like cattle, control your children to “Keep Sweet”, preserve your outlaw lifestyle, maintain a reactionary religious sect and proclaim privleges that are not sanctioned by our laws.

    Standing in the Town square and demonstrating concern a civic concern for all members of the community isn’t the height of bigotry but rather civic responsibility of every Yankee Citizen enjoys, except the citizenry that has found itself unlucky enough to have been born into a etremists fundamental LDS gulag!

  409. Whoever talked about Warren’s hearing, it’s not until the 31st. There was a trial scheduled for the 24th, but it was combined with the trial scheduled for 2/21. He will be tried for raping a barely 12 year old and a 14 year old in one trial. One is aggravated sexual assault which is a 1st degree felony and carries a sentence of up to 99 years or life and the other is a 2nd degree felony and carries a sentence of 2 – 20 years. Both can have fines up to $10,000.

  410. I presume warren will be represented by his court appointed lawyer since he fired his Texas attorney within hours of hiring him. At least he cannot fire the court appointed lawyer.

  411. Yes, he will be represented by his Court appointed counsel, even if he decides to hire someone new. He can’t fire Fred, Fred can only be dismissed by the Judge.

  412. Thanks for the clarification, ProudTexan.

  413. I’ve never commented here, or on any of the other blogs or news articles I’ve read – I felt that people should be able to choose how they want to live their lives, even if their lifestyles are totally different than mine.

    But its the issue of children that keeps coming up over and over again for me. Yeah, raising kids in a closed society certainly presents an ethical issue to me, but as a parent, you assume all parents want to protect and nurture their kids, hoping they grow into well adjusted adults. Even those with radically different beliefs.

    But what is the difference between the FLDS family that willingly marries their pubescent daughters off to a “religious leader” for security and status and the people who *sell their children on Craig’s list for sex?

    Its ALL exploitation to me.

    I hope there is proof, I hope there is irrefutable evidence to put Jeffs away. I hope his house of cards falls.

    What is going to happen to those people at the YFZ and the twin cities with a conviction for Jeffs? Everything that they’ve built their lives on comes undone.

    *yes this does happen.

  414. My feeling is that FLDS sect members engage in a significant amount of denial, so despite Warren’s conviction and punishment they will continue with the same practices which got them into trouble during Warren’s regime.

  415. S, I agree with you. The flds members will see the prosecution and imprisonment of warren as proof that their beliefs are correct and that they are a chosen people. They will look back at Joseph Smiths’ imprisonment and death, the attempted prosecution (in the flds eyes persecution) of John Taylor, and even the experience of Christ and say that warren’s situation is similar and proof positive that they are right.

  416. The people at the YFZ live in a make believe world, they will exalt Warren to saint hood. They can’t face reality, it is too much for them, so it is easier for them to retreat into a dream world.

  417. Observing the whole community of the FLDS Church will continue on, if allowed to remain in place. I agree with Chemist that a martyrdom will enshroud the reality of the criminal activities. These fanatical sect will continue it’s belief in Celestial law that supercedes US laws. The faith here is theocratic, the leadership is in a living prophet and the power is divined and not manifested in any secular sovreign state. The outside world are the ‘Gentiles’ and they are the Elect. As Chemist mentions the actions by the State of Texas is simply persecution and not prosecution, Celestial law empowers them to practice polygyny and if the secular state doesn’t validate their practice then the states position is wrong. The FLDS Church is empowered by “The Mouth”(Prophet) who reveals the Almighties will and no other power equals that source of truth.

    Seem like a cult that surrenders their willpower, thinking and lives over to a tyrannical oligarchy theology?

  418. Observing,

    It won’t matter if Warren is incarcerated for the rest of his life. He is still “the prophet” – and he will remain so until the day he dies. Unless Texas prison rules restrict every possible mode of communication with the outside world, he can continue to dictate to his followers.

    That’s the way it is!

  419. I’m still tickled at last eve’s 5:30 klukkker who cannot, will not, deal with reality and this nation built upon laws,

  420. Just to be clear, Observing…

    The FLDS practices you mention ARE exploitative! We will observe a very few of their lawbreakers subjected to our U.S. justice system – the very one under which their leaders have chosen to live.

    That we are able to incarcerate a few could help curtail the underage marriages, and known abuses, but I won’t hold my breath. There is little hope to thwart their beliefs, as much as we may abhor them. Besides, that would be undesirable from a constitutional standpoint.

    However, in spite of every legal thing we can exact against the known abuse and lawbreaking practices, it will do little to stop them from continuing to thumb their noses at the law or to stop their disregard for the human rights of their women and children. They will continue to act on their beliefs – at least in the short term.

    Unfortunately, I don’t think the practice of polygyny will go away. It will survive in its usual underground way.

    What we must do is be vigilant in our attempts to prosecute the abuse – especially the abuses of so many innocent children. And we can hope that gradually positive changes will occur from within their ranks in the long term.

    The goal is to see them finally understand they live in a country that allows and encourages individuality and personal choices in and for their own lives – and to be able to ACT ON THEM.

  421. Thank you ET for CARING enough to persevere.

  422. Thanks to the admin for setting up a thread for the Canadian documents.
    And MANY THANKS to S for putting up all the links to the documents.
    Quite a powerful set of testimonies and resources there for those who care to read…

  423. Guess I’m the eternal optomist, but I think there are some sharp flds members who will see the reality of what their prophet has done. And they will try to get the others to see the need to regroup, revise and restructure, producing changes so that they will comply with the law. With so many factions and so many members – it would be a tremendous undertaking.

  424. Why are the FLDS so tolerant of WSJ? I thought they were just blindly following their religious teachings, but in studying their history, they have time and again shown that they do NOT just blindly follow leadership that they don’t agree with.
    Synonymous said this on January 20, 2011 at 7:37 PM

    Synonymous Warren’s leaders, all have given daughters or have themselves bedded underage girls, with their wived quietly submitting.

    That is how Warren stays in power, period.

  425. HHG

    Truly the compiled data has been more than I imagined it would be.

    I havent read it all – did read some, including the FLDS retort, which on its face was nothing but hot air and a diversion – no tangible reason to legalize polygamy at all.

    I consider this a test case of what some in Utah want to happen – all the abuses will come out of the woodwork and become part of the legal documentation that also serves as a religious testimony of the abuses.

    To older anonymous, if you remember the post from Anon Fiver, they just close their eyes, close their mouth and cover their ears and become more withdrawn – most of the time.

    There will always be people becoming dissatisfied and leaving – but people will stay too. Perhaps Warren will lose power, that would be the big change and the million dollar question that may take some time to answer.

  426. Please add my thanks to all who have helped in compiling and getting the Canadian material together on one place on “our” blog.
    I have read most of it and it is very informative.

  427. It is interesting for me to read the Canadian teachers position on this question of charter rights and freedoms. I recall being taken to task on the Sltrib boards and Brooke Adams for stating that the BC Bountiful primary/secondary school had glossed over their studenbody and childrens performance by pointing up a few facts. I now read that the Canadian teachers have had and have a long standing set of concerns. Note that the FLDS Church restricts the curriculum, their computers are on a closed loop( no internet access by students) and the number of secondary students was only around 8-12 students with none above the 11th grade level, which likely is an 8th to 9th grade equivalent in an outside Canadian high school.

    Brooke Adams was a big defender, while at the SLTrib, that the Bountiful children were receiving an above average Canadian education. Turns out she would have held a minority view that things were just wonderful at this BC schoolhouse.

  428. That FLDS CORE is mostly too invested in their nonsense belief system AND their own ACTIONS, and the perceived power that affords. Men and mothers who have committed felony criminal ACTS themselves would find it very hard to accept that their brains are lying, have lied, to themselves.

    One at a time though there will be, shall be, those who will choose decency and right.

  429. I gotta say that I am so glad we have chemist here, man you have my respect.

  430. Thank you Granny Toad. I also respect you as a person and as a poster.

  431. I am far from done posting links, I will attempt to complete posting sometime later this week

  432. CaJim,
    Research done by Daphne Branham indicates that the dropout rate in Bountiful School is at least (or exceeds) 50%

  433. I have arranged to have the video affidavits sent to me from Canada for posting here.
    This may take a week or two.

  434. S, dropouts, any comments on male/female ratio?

  435. That I don’t know about, but I can inquire of someone in Canada who might know.

  436. Coming up Monday –

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/01/23/bc-bountiful-polygamy.html?ref=rss#socialcomments

  437. S. all things being equal, Daphne’s drop out rate would be 50% based upon reaching the 8th. Grade? If we look at 12th grade level, the rate is above 90%. Denying the academic achievement rate of teenagers based upon parental, religious values and FLDS community standards is obviously bizarre. On the one hand Winston Blackmore wants to discuss and insist that Bountiful students a above average and then ignore the fact that under 10% achieve a 12th grade graduation. I guess he believes better than average is good and grossly below average is best.

  438. I recall that there were 240 students in the school in all 12 grades, but only 8 graduated per year on average.
    I will email Daphne and ask for more information, unless you can find some references more quickly….

  439. Indon’t have current data that’s what was awry but 2009 there were no graduates and 2010 was only 2-3 probables. Given the turn down in the econony, no graduates last year would be likely. The distinction of proclaiming above average performance in lower grades and little to none in the uppergrades, rings hollow with me. Winston is obviously smokin’ in public and using a filter. The disparity between Bountiful students that have left and tested at lower grade levels when re-enrolled in another Canadian province was mentioned in the teachers affidavit.

  440. Honor killing in Phoenix.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s//ap/20110124/ap_on_re_us/us_westernized_woman_killed

  441. I think what Blackmore really means is that handful of boys he has chosen to go on to college are really hot stuff. His select few are better than the average of the outside world.

  442. Buy them cheap sneakers at walmart, turn them loose driving on the roads with potential victims, and keep them in an otherwise barely literate if that, 3rd world.

  443. what word kept my post off the screen now?

  444. I agree Betty, so isn’t that special.

    Oh, bye the bye Uncle Wink is soon to be called on his misinterpretation of the Canadian Charter, i.e. it doesn’t mean what he proclaims. Starting tomorrow and the remainder of the week the FLDS Church members are going to dominate the pro-polygamist testimonies, after Bishop Blackmore has done all the work to bring about the question of Constitutionality of bigamy. No harm though the answer is still the same. I’m sure Winston will be the first interviewed after the polygamy law is upheld to state that had he participated, and not elected to boycott, that the outcome would have been successful. Bishop Oler, of course, will be visiting relatives in Short Creek when the Canadian courts ruling is announced.

  445. It got stuck in the spam folder, Granny. I don’t know why, but I have released it!

  446. I wonder how tight Judge Walther’s security is. I worry about those FLDS thugs and their money, and refusal to accept, admit, the consequences of their actions. Something feels bad.

  447. Those are reasonable concerns, Granny.

  448. I think they have enough security – and while they are dumb, I dont think they are THAT dumb.

  449. Granny, Judge Walther has excellent security. I’d put the Texas Rangers and DPS up against anyone.

  450. Chaps, I think they are that dumb or have the money to buy dumb.

  451. Even murderers can be rented, why not, each of them are rentals.

  452. It is not wise to underestimate the stupidity of religious fanatics. Not saying they would or will but the possibility is real when religion enters into the picture.

  453. S. Again many many thanks on the Canadian affidavits. I thought I was following the case closely through the news reports, but there is quite a lot of information in these affidavits that has not yet shown up in the news reports.

    This is a great treasure trove of information!

  454. I’m FAR from finished. Will continue tomorrow

  455. S, I know how time-consuming this is. I REALLY appreciate the short descriptions you are including with each affidavit link.

    Thank you for your excellent efforts!

  456. Here is Ellie’s linked article on statistics in the Bountiful community
    http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Data+supports+hard+truth+about+brides+Bountiful/4161414/story.html

    I share the disbelief of the author on the lack of indictments for sexual abuse that is clear in the age patterns for the births and trafficking of children for sexual (child manufacturing) purposes.

    May I suggest that comment on this article and other Canadian case affidavits appear in this thread so that the Canadian case thread remain a source thread?

    I hope my suggestion is taken as respectful of others :)?

  457. I will continue to post more affidavits this evening.
    It appears that the Vancouver Sun article posted by Ellie indicates that they are trafficking in underage girls across the border to evade detection of underage marriage/pregnancy in the US.

  458. I will continue to post more affidavits this evening.
    It appears that the Vancouver Sun article posted by Ellie indicates that they are trafficking in underage girls across the border to evade detection of underage marriage/pregnancy in the US.

    S said this on January 25, 2011 at 9:56 AM

    Probably from the community in Pringle where they move in complete freedom from any eyes of the law.

  459. The Canadian mormon fundies also have a presence in Northern Idaho, just across the border from the Canadian poly communities. Flds Bishop Oler has/had a construction company based in Idaho.

  460. From a Wikepedia article on the town of Bonnors Ferry in Northern Idaho.
    “In recent years, Mormon Fundamentalists from nearby Bountiful, British Columbia have established a presence in Bonners Ferry. They have brought with them the controversial practice of plural marriage.[5]”

  461. Yes the ‘Child Brides’ have been trafficked to and from Bountiful.
    I recall 2-3 girls from Canada were at the YFZ Ranch and their presence was explained as visiting a Grandmother but was highly suspect explanation. Safe-houses are known to exist in Mexico and I would believe Canada is likely, as well. Brings up the subject of criminal enterprise and obvious attempts to circumvent law enforcements involvement/awareness.

  462. Interesting article.

    http://www.brandonsun.com/national/breaking-news/testimony-from-bountiful-women-at-bc-polygamy-trial-delayed-until-tuesday-114495334.html?thx=y

  463. I am curious about anyone’s knowledge about the Kentworth 18-Wheeler acident last 8 July that involved Ronald Scott Jessop, of Washington, Utah, he collided with a couple pulling an Airstream trailer on the Hwy. 90 West of Salem, South Dakota. He was sighted for being at fault, had an expired commercial operators license and failed to appear, so a bench warrant was issued on August 10, 2010. Jessop was hauling 17,500lbs. of cheese, comprised of 700lbs. individual rolls. Does anyone have an update/outcome of this expired truckers arrest or at-larege status?

  464. Jim I still keep asking about that also, from time to time. Zero. Whose cheese was it, from where, and where was it destined for, mmmmm?

  465. Well, Lake Norden Cheese, So.Dakota produces 300,000lbs. daily and that plant is off Hwy. 29 which connects to Hwy. 90 at Sioux Falls, So. Dakota.
    That facility ships 640lbs. cheese blocks and is owned by Davisco Foods that happens to operate Jerome Cheese (Merry Maid) plant in Jerome, ID. Industrial sized blocks of cheese like that, pretty much points a finger to only a few facilities.

  466. RE: Ronald Jessop: found this on the web. last paragraph said Ronald Jessop failed to show at a court hearing this week- August 10, 2010

    very interesting website – it is about FLDS in The Black Hills of South Dakota – guard tower and all.

    http://www.childbrides.org/dakota.html

  467. The said Wayne Thornton Fischer is the father of Brenda Lei Fischer, one of the 12 year old underage brides of Warren Jeffs. Wayne’s wife and Brenda’s mother is Nancy, daughter of the one and only Merril Jessop.

  468. COOKE, LUCILLE AYLNE
    Birth Date: 12/31/71
    Address : 425 W GARDEN, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    23:23:00 01/22/11 Other Agency ADPS

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    MOHAVE COUNTY MOHAVE COUNTY DETAINE NA MOHA 1500.00 1500.00

    Her maiden name is Bistline, which Cooke is she married to?

  469. A CPer

    TIMPSON, STEVEN JAMES
    Birth Date: 08/16/91
    Address : 445 W TAYLOR AVE, CENTENIAL PARK, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    17:20:00 01/21/11 Nelson, Brent HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    32A-12-203 ALCOHOL- FURNISH/SALE BM WCJ3 827.00 827.00
    32A-12-209 ALCOHOL- MINOR CONSUM BM WCJ3 523.00 523.00
    41-6a-530 ALCOHOL- RESTRICT DRI BM WCJ3 1615.00 1615.00
    41-6a-502 DUI-1st,2nd OFFENSE BM WCJ3 1405.00 1405.00
    41-6a-526 ALCOHOL- OPEN CONTAIN CM WCJ3 100.00 100.00
    41-6a-528 RECKLESS DRIVING BM WCJ3 623.00 623.00

  470. Woman with 3 husbands

  471. I believe that tomorrow will be the one year anniversary of the First Church of the Holy Matriarchs of the WTF Ranch !

    As one of the founding members, I wish all of the High Priestesshood Holders a very happy anniversary !

  472. Here is the thread….the WTF Cougar Ranch

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/open-discussion-24/#comments

  473. WRT to the Canadian case

    It seems sort of like a chess game where individual groups/experts lob (mixing metaphors 🙂 ) a softball/pawn to probe where the major point of legal reasoning will fall. Seems like there are a couple of approaches for the pro-polygamists:

    1. Religious belief is protected
    2. No detriment – so no reason to regulate
    3. Regulation or outlawing is based on some old fashioned and outdated (old maid) squeamishness at private sexual behavior
    4. Most of the world does it so it dishonors a large part of the world by applying a local moral standard
    5. The law is applied only to a particular group (prejudice)
    6. The law is written too broadly and will encompass other behaviors which do not impact society (polyamory)
    7. I had another thought but lost it…

    Anyway it seems that if one had a great legal commentator it would be like going to a baseball game with a statistics freak which turns a baseball game from a crushing bore into an interesting duel of strategy. (HINT RIH TBM, where are you?)
    3.

  474. From the testimony of Witness “2” today I wonder why she was not cross examined on: if the prophet tells you to do XYZ which is against the law would you uphold the law passively (not do it); uphold the law actively (not do it and report the law breaking); or follow the prophet.

  475. that’s a really good question hhg, someone needs to send it to whoever is going to cross the plig witnesses.

  476. Great blog of an acquaintance of mine –
    Kim’s “Just One Wife” Blog

    http://www.justonewife.com/2010.09.01_arch.html

  477. Witness 2 wouldn’t be on the stand if she did not “Keep Sweet” and do what her prophet had said. Her father would have to be a bishop to afford her any protection or allowance. Witness 2 mentioned her upbringing in a home with 3 plural wives and 30 siblings? I was raised in a large family, say 6-12 children, but 30 kids would seem like being at a year round summercamp. Does anyone believe that parental supervision and limited nuturing would be the norm. The elder children must be surrogate parents, if their not already married-off themselves.

    I wonder if we’ll hear testimony from a plural wife with 12 to 24 sister wives and over 75 children? Keeping the names straight, presenting any semblance of family life or domestic bliss would be one lengthy witnessing. Beyond arranged betrothals will they discuss apostasy(s), reassignments, preeminence, release(divorce) and shunning ex-spouses?

  478. Daphne is not posting as a reporter – I presume because she and her editors know she has written a book and has strong opinions (unlike the SLT with Brooke for the longest time).

    She is posting as a reporter and it is quite interesting the difference between her blog and the news reports…. part may be the interpretive twist (as in …if witness 2 didn’t allow her daughter to marry at 15 to a 19 she would have been placed to an older man) but part appears to be reporting – she gave an account of give and take between the witness and the cross exam on

    we have no money because of legal fees: are you aware that 8 men have been convicted of sexual assault and Jeffs faces the same charges?

    because we have no money we can’t send our kids to college: are you aware of government grants available? no

    our kids are too afraid of the outside world’s discrimination. Has your child ever been to the outside world and faced discrimination? no

  479. I was just reviewing the affidavit of Truman Oler on the Canadian Reference Case thread.
    He reports that the FLDS children and teenagers were NEVER TOLD that polygamy was illegal. They were told they were “persecuted” for the way they lived, but it was NOT specified that polygamy was the reason for the “persecution”
    We are often told that decriminalization of polygamy would make many fundamentalist Mormons more likely or more comfortable to report abuse.
    Now why would that be true if these children and teenagers are not even aware that polygamy is ILLEGAL in the first place ??

  480. – and as a corollary to the above – are these children / teenagers even aware that as American or Canadian citizens they have a right of self determination to enter into marital or sexual relationships free of coercion ?

  481. I will post the affidavit of Witness # 2 later this evening.

    As for these comments of the anonymous witness under cross examination –
    “we have no money because of legal fees, and we have no money to send our children to college due to legal fees” – if they followed the law, they would not be in this situation. Their “legal” bills are a relatively recent phenomenon and they didn’t send most of their children to college before they had their recent legal entanglements either.

  482. Yeah, BiB, I think everyone who has any objective history on the current court cases can see through that.

  483. All great points on witness 2, so I trust Judge Bauman is catching the mindset and I was wondering since when does a witness decide that whomever married her is an optional fact that she chose not to identify. Does witness #2 realize that trafficking minor girls across the Canadian border, regardless if it is to illegally marry a minor ‘Child Bride’ or not, that deportations will still be inposed. Oh, marrying the first time as an illegal immigrant, underage(even if FLDS parents approve but they may, also, have committed a felony) and without the ceremony being performed by a duly licensed Justice of the
    Peace/Minister will still be considered violations of the Law. Lastly, the prophet divorce, reassignments and apostasy of your husband/wife doesn’t end a lawfully performed matrimony.

    I know, those ‘Gentiles’ are still persecuting and ‘targeting’ you.

  484. I know, those ‘Gentiles’ are still persecuting and ‘targeting’ you.

    As they say in Southpark – “those BASTARDS!!”

  485. CAJim, Sara Hammon grew up in a family with 19 “mothers” and 75 children. She says that her father could NEVER remember her name and EVERY time he saw her (he lived mostly in Salt Lake City and would come to visit the rest of his family in Colorado City) he ALWAYS asked her what her name was and who her mother was. Can you imagine what this would do to the self-esteem of a little girl? Your own father doesn’t even know your name!

  486. No, Anon I couldn’t imagine what it would be like to, in reality being the daughter/son of multiple ‘Sister Mummies’ and my own father remembers my mother but not me? Where’s the wholesome fundamentalist family that may function for the first wife or two and their children but by wifey #4 or #5, plus and over 30+children turns into a dormitory and military boot camp environment.

    I am still curious about the ‘H’ shaped building being constructed at the YFZ Ranch. Is it ‘Warrants’ sister wives homestead or is it a half-way house for ‘Child Brides, that don’t go all-the-way, anymore?

  487. Interesting article today on witness #2 at the Toronto Star(thestar.com) by Rosie DiManno. Her take away is that this testimony by a screened FLDS member is itself a case of underage child abuse, which the witness herself failed to realize by her testimony. If this is the caliber and strongest witnessing that the pro-polygamy faction can muster, their defense and claims seem frought with contradictions, inconsistent reasonings and values well outside the legal realm. The blind faith afforded the prophet, obedience into unlawful actions and unquestioned practices that constitute abuses is very illustrative of this covert and fanatical sects tenets.

    The assertion that ‘Religious Freedom’ is absolute and practiced as imperious to all other Canadian Chater Rights and Freedoms is the failed reasoning of these covert sects. Equality and individual freedoms are not trumped by ‘Freedom of Religion’, as practiced by a prophet, church or faithful community.

  488. http://www.thestar.com/article/928120–dimanno-what-s-it-like-being-a-polygamous-wife

    Above find the article Jim referenced.
    The woman (witness #2) is testifying under oath that she (or potentially a family member) is afraid to tell her doctor or dentist that she is a polygamist for fear of prosecution. It should be noted that doctors and dentists are NOT required to report patients for polygamy ANYWHERE in the US or Canada. Child abuse and underage marriage, yes, doctors are required to report those offenses. I have already clarified this issue with MULTIPLE hospital attorneys – there is NO burden of responsibility for a physician to report a polygamist to the authorities. This is quite a spin being put on here – decriminalize polygamy or we won’t see a doctor.

  489. Things about the article that jump out at me:

    Her husband is a firefighter. He has 19 children. She works (presumably part time) as a midwife. We don’t know if the other wife works, or if either of them is still producing children. But she blames their poverty on tithing, not on a very poor ratio of wage earners to children. Then it says they tithe as much as $1000 a month! How does a firefighter, even a SINGLE firefighter, afford $1000 a month in tithing and pay his own expenses? I understand that they share expenses communally, but you know, someone has to pay for all of this. The invisible source of money that they live on is kind of a curious point to me. Where does the FLDS get money for stuff in the storehouse, or the land, or the building materials for their house? Are they tithing and then getting some of that money back in some way? Are they getting welfare from the Canadian Government?

    It says she left her babies with her sister wife while she went to school. If that sister already had children, how many babies was that poor woman dealing with at one time? It sound to me that the numbers would be something no day care would ever tolerate (or be allowed to by law in most states). If you have your own family of 10 kids, they are spread out in age, but if you have more than one woman, you could easily have too many infants for one person to care for.

    How can this be an egalitarian society if her education depended upon her father or her husband’s permission?

    When she said that she allowed her 15 year old daughter to enter into an (illegal) marriage, she says she would only have allowed it because it was monogamous. But they believe that polygamy is the command of God, so to me, this is a lie; the daughter’s marriage was only monogamous AT THAT TIME. In short, it’s OK in her mind to take a 15 year old as your FIRST wife. Well, it’s nice to know that she has standards.

  490. I suspect there is some re-distribution of wealth going on through the tithing system, in addition, of course, to government welfare benefits and food stamps. The health care is already free.

  491. Betty…..Ha, Ha, ha….your write-ups are always the best!
    By saying she,”has standards”, I think you meant she,”has substandards”. The firefighter info was real interesting, I wonder if her ‘priesthood’ hubby was one of those Hildale Firehouse guys that is under investigation for using city charge-cards for tens of thousands of dollars in bogus charges? The Short Creekers have been known to send trailers filled with supplies from WalMart and all paid for with welfare script.

  492. IMO it appears that a lot of dirt has been exposed on the FLDS, and the break away Winston B group, hopefully the Canadian courts will rule against polygamy.

    And speaking of polygamists outside of the USA, here’s a link for one who is even worse than Warren Jeffs IMO. His name is Orson Black and he was kicked out of the FLDS because he like Mitchell thought he was a prophet, and ole Warren couldn’t have a rival.

    http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=38832

    http://www.amw.com/report-tip/?id=38832

    If anyone knows where this turkey is hiding out give AMW a call at the number listed on their website.

  493. From a website about Orson Black. I had heard a few years ago that he was in Mexico. This web article also indicates that he is in Mexico.

    http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=38832

    “The Arizona Attorney General’s Office has not been able to serve Black and considers him a fugitive. The U.S. Marshals know that Black has fled to Chihuahua, Mexico where he has started his own sect with numerous followers.

    His polygamist community includes many people from the FLDS community in Colorado City who now believe that Orson Black is the true prophet.

    Authorities tell a different story — they believe that Black currently has three wives and they are all in danger. U.S. Marshals say he is contacting supporters in the United States via e-mail and phone and that he has followers bringing him food and money. Despite these resources, authorities hope they can bring Black to justice.”

  494. Liars lie, thieves steal.

  495. How many polygamous groups are there in Chihuahua?
    I know that the AUB has a number of their faithful there in Ozumba, and there are independent Mexican Mormon polygamists, as well as the followers of Orson Black, but are there any other polygamous groups in Chihuahua ?

  496. Some mennonite polygamists have long been down in there.

  497. See, when mormons first went to Utah it was still Mexico.

  498. FLDS Texas,
    Congratulations – you have over 600,000 hits on this site ! Quite an accomplishment!

  499. Wow,
    just read the latest stories on the 24 year old who “married” at 17 on a student visa to Canada a 30-40 year old who has since brought home at 15 year old from the U.S.

    Sounds like they are witnesses for the “polygamy is wrong” crowd. Is this the best they got?

  500. Here are the links to the articles I just mentioned:

    http://www.theprovince.com/life/Bountiful+woman+said+marriage+teen+husband+revelation+from/4173350/story.html?cid=megadrop_story

    http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/local/article/754737–woman-recalls-polygamous-marriage-at-17

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/01/26/bc-bountiful-american.html

  501. ” Is this the best they got?”

    Could be.

  502. The best are too sweet to talk.

  503. Orson William (goes by Will) Black used to run a meth lab in Hildale. He told his workers that he was extracting gold from metals (instead of cooking meth). The lab exploded one day and blew the front of the building off.

    Several years ago, he was seen in Casas Grandes Mexico, which is southwest of Juarez. When he was approached by Mike Watkiss, Will jumped over a fence and ran away.

    You can read the sad story of his second wife here – http://www.childbrides.org/tamara.html

  504. HHG,
    I think the reference case pro – polygamy decriminalization side just exploded given the recent revelations. They stand a snowball’s chance in hell of winning at this point

  505. It’s amazing to me that witnesses testify that international borders are of little consequence to them. Personally, I wouldn’t leave the US without a passport. Lying to a border patrol officer on either side, knowing I will cross and break the law and that’s the real reason for my crossing or I needed a written letter from my parent to fool the officer and enter under false pretenses is a disregard for lawful authority and stated with impugnity. These acts are being committed on foreign soil and the consequences are those of the sovreign/host nation?

  506. The reason they can’t prosecute in Canada for crimes other than polygamy is that the age of consent was 14 until 2008 when it was raised to 16. We also know that the older men don’t fall within the bounds of the “position of authoriy or trust” exception since Blackmore would have been prosecuted a long time ago on this loophole. It suprises me that this point hasn’t been brought up by either side. Since these “celestial marriages” are in legal limbo, the AOC for marriage is irrelevant

  507. Does anyone know if “trafficking” applies here since these girls were above the AOC? If I go to Mexico, meet a girl and bring her back to the States or Canada to be married, what is the minimum age for it to fall under “trafficking” charges, is it the same as the AOC in the country I reside, the country I traveled to, or is it trafficking no matter what the age? If so, would that mean that “Russian mail order brides” are illegal?

  508. Anonymous at 8:17 PM. Thanks so much for the link that details Tammy Black’s sad story. Orson (Will) Black seems to be a real scoundrel and scoflaw.

  509. I have placed the affidavits of anonymous witnesses #2,3,4 who will be testifying this week in Vancouver on the Canadian Case discussion thread.

  510. Something probably not taught in FLDS “schooling”. Nations have their own sets of laws.

    Here in the US, States have laws also, under the US Constitution.

    There are some nations that don’t have real laws at all, banana republics. There are some muslim theocracies. There are nations with no democracy, no human rights, no civil rights either.

    Those practices are unacceptable here in the USA. We are a nation of laws. Actions have consequences.

  511. IMO any “anonymous witness” is no witness at all.

  512. Anyone unwilling to identify oneself is likely lying further, whether one way or another: nothing to lose.

  513. this “anonymous” witness confirmed that many FLDS women marry young, if she wasn’t allowed to testify anonymously, we wouldn’t have had it on record that many FLDS women marry in their teens even if above the age the consent. She also went on record to say that in fact, they practice polygamy.

  514. “A sociopath is characterized by the deficit of social emotions such as love, guilt, shame or remorse. According to the University of Tennessee-Knoxville, the sociopath lacks “a sense of moral responsibility and social conscience.”

    Sociopaths often scheme to manipulate others without regard to consequences of inflicting harm.

    It is the cold-hearted way the sociopath reacts to his victims that illustrates his lack of moral compass and detachment from other human beings.”

    ——————

    Read more: How to Tell If Someone Is a Sociopath | eHow.com

    http://www.ehow.com/how_6781398_tell-someone-sociopath.html#ixzz1CCO0nYhs

  515. There also was an anonymous witness who went public, anonymous witness # 7 who later identified herself as Alina Darger. See her affidavit on the Canadian Reference Case Thread.

  516. This bunch sure caught themselves up in a tub of lies. Appreciate mention above of an exception.

  517. I just saw that Eric Nichols’ affidavit in the Canadian case is 796 pages, you go Eric!!!

  518. Judging by the comments on previous canadian stories and the wife 2 3 and 4 etc. the latter testimonies are very harmful to the cause of the FLDS

  519. Whoa, RICO sociopaths = Warrenite Ways.

    I’ve heard of ‘Doctors without Borders’ and now we have ‘Child Brides who ignore Borders’ respectively the first group is a humanitarian cause and the latter is a cause for humanities concerns.

  520. NatGeo had an interesting show on this evening.”Inside a Cult”. I’d never heard of him, Wayne Bent aka Michael Travesser [abt 69-70yrs old] . STRANGE man. He says God told him, “You are the Messiah” in a revelation. These revelations also ‘forced him’ to sleep with his son’s wife! Several times! His predicted End of Times didn’t happen as planned [supposedly to take place on Oct 31, 2007 at midnight]. Nor did the transformation of his body into a new person. He was convicted in Dec ’08 for sexual contact[s] with a minor. Seems, HE is/was the only one allowed to “consumate” with anyone. He disolved all marriages. And then there was the naked [young] girls laying on his bed with him, bit. According to him, they all begged to do this. AND, he has more right than a Dr. to touch them, sinve he does it with a pure heart and Dr.s have lust in theirs when they touch women [as in OB/GYN exams.]
    AND HIS FOLLOWERS BELIEVE ALL THIS CARP! I swear, some people are just *&^%*&^ KRAZY!
    He got 18yrs and the judge suspended 8 of them. [I got that off Wikipedia]

  521. “Does anyone know if “trafficking” applies here since these girls were above the AOC?”

    No, they weren’t. I don’t know about Canada but in their home country they were not old enough to enter into a sexual relationship with a man decades their senior. So yes, it was “trafficking”. Those poor girls were illegally transported across state AND national lines to be coerced into sexual activity.

    “If I go to Mexico, meet a girl and bring her back to the States or Canada to be married, what is the minimum age for it to fall under “trafficking” charges, is it the same as the AOC in the country I reside, the country I traveled to, or is it trafficking no matter what the age?”

    You have to take into acount both the home country (or state) laws and the laws of the area where the victim ends up. And, of course, there’s always issues of extradition and enforcement. But if the law is broken in Arizona and a person flees to Canada then they are still legally liable in Arizona. Not sure why this is confusing for you.

    “If so, would that mean that “Russian mail order brides” are illegal?”

    If they are underage, yes. Underage mail order brides from India or Somolia or Mars are also illegal.

    Are you actually a resident of the United States of America? I’m not at all sure why this is so confusing for you.

    By the way, your mail order brides analogy falls under the catagory of a “Weak Analogy Fallcy” in logic. It really is sad the way FLDS apologists so consistently reveal their lack of education and inability to string together a logical argument.

  522. They run that every so often, mc1199.

  523. CaJim

    Yeah, I just happened on that site, and it rang the bell, it reminded me of the FLDS leaders and alot of other polygamists for that matter.

    MC,

    Travessor also said he would die if imprisoned. Didnt happen, but I’m sure he’s not happy!

  524. I have NEVER seen an underage Russian mail order bride. NEVER – it would not be tolerated here.

  525. I don’t think the FLDS ignore borders. I think they CHOSE to live near borders so that they can play them for all they are worth. It reminds me of highway men of old and the England/Scotland border wars.

  526. I think the problem is that if the girls are below the AOC in the US, then all the Canadian government can do is deport them for being in Canada illegally. They can’t prosecute there for trafficking. And of course the state of origin won’t. I don’t know what the US government’s excuse is, cause they should extradite and prosecute.

  527. Back in 2005, when 8 FLDS men were indicted for felony sex with a minor in Arizona, one case was dismissed against Terry Darger Barlow because the nuptials with a 15 year old ‘Child Bride’ had taken place in BC, Canada. Five (5) of these FLDS men were convicted/pleaded and were given very light sentences, Dale Evans Barlow was convicted as a sex offender. So Terry Barlow case is at least one incident were an American man came to Canada to wed a minor and bring her back to the US as one of his plural wives.

  528. See, CalJim, that just sounds to me like the court was trying to let them get off easily. That sounds like an AG trying to prosecute and the judge involved trying to make the cases go away.

  529. Yes, Betty I would agree that Arizona has ‘dirty hands’ in accommodating and mollifying the law to evade justice. The pressure that has been brought against the FLDS Church by Utah/Arizona has dissipated. FLDS polygyny has fanned out into other states, like Nevada, Idaho, South Dakota and Colorado and Stsate of Utah’s guilt of having allowed this subversion of bigamy laws to exist and become tolerated. AG Mark Shurtleff in Utah can watch with transfixed interest in Canada’s Supreme Court polygamy reference case outcome but the fact remains that it’s origins trace back to Utah/Arizona.

    I believe that Canadian Chief Justice Bauman is more likely to affirm the constitutionality of anti-polygamy statutes and Mark Shurtleff will be left not having redoubled his efforts to fight polygyny, in fact he’s attempted to accommadate the UEP Trust settlement in favor of the FLDS Church!

  530. In this recent episode of Polygamy : What Love is This, Doris Hanson interviews Rachel Kingston, an ex Kingston group polygamist wife, who describes the abusive treatment of women in the Kingston group.

    http://www.whatloveisthis.tv/episodes/2011/ep401.htm

  531. My guess is that x pulled the russian bride thing out of his arse, not knowing that part of the world has mentally evolved past FLDS sexual criminals’ excuses.

  532. Doesn’t Warren have an upcoming court appearance. I thought it was tomorrow???

  533. Some further information on the Mann Act:

    “Definition: In 1910, Congress passed the Mann Act which makes it a federal crime to transport individuals under the age of 18 across state lines to engage in any sexual activity.
    The original intent of the law was to stop prostitutes from being moved from one locale to another or out of the country. It now also applies to an adult taking a consensual minor to another state.
    Penalties can include being fined for $5,000, or imprisoned for 5 years, or both. The penalty could be doubled if a minor is involved.
    Also Known As: White Slave Traffic Act”

    From: http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/g/mannact.htm

    Note that it applies to consensual minors and the age is defined in the law as being 18. The local age of consent has no bearing.

  534. The post about the Mann Act is mine. chemist

  535. Great article today by Rosie DiManno in the Star –

    http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/928874

  536. Interesting quote from Warren Jeffs in the exhibits attached to Texas Asst. AG Eric Nichols affidavit filed with the Canadian Supreme Court. After Michael Emacks marriage at the YFZ Ranch to his underaged ‘Child Bride’, Warren cautioned him to not inform anyone in his family because matters taking place at the ‘Lands of Refuge’ were,”…sacred and secret”. The prophet is telling a priesthood man not to inform any of his family members? Then Emack was granted an apartment with his new plural wife on the YFZ and the extended Emack family knew nothing.

  537. Something isn’t lining up between testimonies by FLDS wives #2 & #4 witnesses? The Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School (BESS) currently is not accredited for Grades 11th and 12th. Witness #2 stated that she was taking college courses at nearby Creston college and witness #4 stated she held a 12th Grade certificate from BESS and has been attending University of Southern Utah, for the past three summers? Something rotten here, either women or both may be attending higher education but without proper credits to enroll.

  538. CORRECTION : Witness #2 is attending College of the Rockies in Cranbrook and not ‘Creston College’.

  539. Well, I know that you can attend community college here in the states without a high school degree. You just sign up to take a course that has no prerequisites, but you do not enroll in a degree program. Then you get the professor’s permission to take a few classes with prerequisites. You can take remedial math courses for which you get no credit. Then, after you have a proven track record of decent grades, you apply for a degree program. After you finish the two year program, you apply to a normal college. It’s called the home schooler’s back door into college. There are also adult education out reach programs that have no credit, like estate planning, using computers, master gardener classes, work place Spanish, that kind of thing. So these ladies might be telling the truth literally that they are attending college.

  540. Can’t someone just take a GED test and get a GED – same as high school diploma and then go to community college based on that?

  541. Sure, watergirl, that’s an option. It’s not at all easy to do by yourself. Here in the US, community colleges and college extension offices offer courses in GED prep.

  542. Maybe the Utah college accepted the certificate on face value. As long as she passes classes, I guess it doesn’t matter, eh?

  543. Well, I can’t say but if certificates were presented, the information that they graduated would be bogus. BESS since 1991 has only had 13 secondary graduates, that is not even one per year, if either of these women have bona-fide certification I would be surprised. Witness #4 was told by the reference case amicus that BC Province denied Bountiful E-S School certification for Grades 11th and 12th in 2007 and therefore a 12th Grade certificate after 2007, would not be accepted. Secondly, these students have been attending over the more recent years, like since the RCMP investigation and indictments were made.

    You don’t think that the high rate of teen pregnancy, three times the BC Province average and the fact that almost none of the Bou ntiful teenagers graduate might impact an assessment on harms by polygamy against individual freedoms, rights or liberties?

  544. I TX I dunno, GED works. I know some people take remedial classes to get into, qualify. Further I can’t say. Back when I went in I forget what it was called, you could also ‘test out’ of lower level course level college classes, I think it was called CLEP whatever that stood for, I know I did most undergrad level courses that way which in no way means you get out of taking x hours of whatever, it just means you take higher level courses. I was shocked at my self quite frankly, I had no idea I was that much further ahead of course level expectations. Made university more challenging and I liked that. At times it requires that you and the school design your own program.

  545. CLEP = College Level Examination Program

    That’s one way to get into college. It “gives you the opportunity to receive college credit for what you already know by earning qualifying scores on any of 33 examinations. Earn credit for knowledge you’ve acquired through independent study, prior course work, on-the-job training, professional development, cultural pursuits, or internships.”

    The way one of my offspring did it after “graduating” from Alta Academy with an 8th-grade education was to do the GED program, then entered university and got his EEE degree. He was hired straight out of university with a high-tech company passing their grueling maximum security (FBI) exams and started working on government classified programs.

  546. CLEP is actually more complicated than just taking a test. I tried to use my real life computer skills to get past some of the computer related credit. I had to present a paper, a project AND take a class. Honestly, it was not a lot less trouble than taking a class, and I STILL had to pay the school to record the credits and visit with a professor who was managing the whole thing.

  547. I have to agree with you, Betty. After seriously considering the CLEP, I decided against it for pretty much the same reasons you stated.

  548. Most post secondary schools have test outs for many of their lower level classes. CLEP is a test out that many schools use. However, individual schools may use their own test out exam/work for some of their classes.

  549. The only really big joke on me was that apparently my brain had a bigger vocabulary &c in Spanish than my ??? conscious thought processes were aware of, so the upper level class they put me into required me to need a tutor. Go figger. I think I read & heard at a higher level than I was able to put into words, may be one way to say it.

  550. There will be no personal vendettas played out on this blog. Any posts of that kind, from either side (and you know who you are), will be immediately removed. You don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here.

    No Love,
    The Management

  551. I guess I missed a now deleted post?

    I am trusting that Chief Justice Robert Bauman gets the polygamy review question ‘Loud & Clear’ in the closing comments, next week. Bishop Olers and Bishop Blackmores filed affidavits that were both only 5 pages? Bishop Winston Blackmore’s failure to show and attempt to boycott really reveals that the ‘Emperor gots no Clothes[i.e. Close]’. The witnesses for repeal were two independent plural wives neither Warrenite/Winstonite, namely Alina Darger and Mary Batchelor, and then Witnesses #1 thru #4? Not much in the way of offering any bulwark of truths and testaments to the outstanding good to be gained by allowing the ‘Mongrel form of Matrimony’, fit for inbreeders and ends any chance for warm human romance, mutual intimacy or blossoming lovers. These polygamists practice a brand of matrimony that I liken to making a quick trip to the Post Office or going out to the Car Wash. I say leave this polygamy reference case at the curb and let the refuse truck haul it away!

    Happy Valentine’s Day, y’all.

  552. I have that problem in French, Granny. I can understand them but I can only put together baby sentences. I have hunger. Where is the toilet. Is this the train to Montparnasse. That kind of thing. I guess I never really HAD to talk much, but I absorbed what was going on around me.

  553. I have a problem at times keeping my French and my English separate, if you will. I accidentally use French words in daily conversations with Americans, or English words inserted in French sentences – probably because I learned both languages simultaneously as a child.

  554. I guess I also missed the post that brought forth the warning about using the site for a personal vendetta. Prbably did not miss much.

  555. CaJim,
    Anne Wilde also filed an affidavit. I placed a link on the Canadian Case Discussion thread.

  556. Raymond and Keate’s Brief’s were due to the Court of Appeals yesterday. Wonder if they were timely filed.

  557. Actually they are due today, the 28th. My days have been off the whole month of January.

  558. BnB thanks for your efforts at sharing this info, seems as though the talk of freedoms being lost or denied was some kind of a bluff or sad ruse by these bishops. There formal actions to muster their claims have falling well short or the mark. As I suspected no personal hierarchy families would be prominently placed on display, not to protect anonymity, but rather sequester the normal elapsement of bigger families muddled histories of apostasied wives, shunned children and dominance of ‘First wife’ or ‘Favored Wife’. I didn’t think that the reality and assorted details would see the light of day in the Canadian courtroom. Winston Blackmore’s clan would be one family that didn’t miss an opportunity to truly make their reference case but rather they collectively had alot more to hide than present as valid defense for their side. I am not surprisede that they chose to hide and remain silent.

  559. Jim,
    There were other affidavits as well, I will post more this evening. There were a number of affidavits filed by the Canadian Polyamory Assn as well, which I have not posted, but I will do so if the readership wants me to –

  560. BinB
    I again applaud your energy and commitment.
    I suspect that the polyamory briefs will fall in the category of do not criminalize the private/sexual behavior of adults which will surely be part of what the judges weigh in their decision.

  561. I don’t care to read about polyamory rightest, pedophiles for polygamy nor bleed for bestiality brethren. No thanks.

  562. Brooklyn, if it’s relevant to the outcome of the Canadian Case, I, for one, want to read it.

    If you comment it as coming from the Polyamory Assn., our blog readers can easily choose to ignore it.

  563. I will try to post all the FLDS material this weekend, and then will move on to the polyamory affidavits if time permits.

  564. I agree with ET, I want to read what’s going on.

  565. I’m interested in the polyamory folks. I’m concerned how the law will make a differntiation between the behavior of cults and the behavior of these highly consensual and individual choices.

  566. I agree, Betty. Although to me the biggest difference is that polyamorous relationships don’t seem to be religiously mandated, insist on “virginity” leading to underage brides (in part, at least) or claim marriage.

  567. Firstly, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is meant to preserve individual rights/freedoms to insure liberty. The Warrenite/Winstonite sects approach these rights/freedoms in the context of group as opposed to individual liberties. Mixing metaphors and twisting the meanings is something inherent in the fundamentalist approach. Born mainly by their duality of Church versus State and therfore, even if polygamy is legalized, the fundies would still favor arranged marriages, nuptials regardless of age, priesthood (fathers) consent, celestial marriage ignoring secular license, no observance to statutory/aggrvated rape of a child, trafficking state/international borders with impugnity and the bride can abide these methods or risk shunning or confined for repentance. So even with polygamy granted, other laws that protect individuals/children will be broken.

    This is where, namely the harm to other individuals, will result in anti-polygamy statutes being affirmed and upheld. Granting fundamentalists plural marriage means additionally rejecting the legal constraints of age of consent, third-party choices,
    superceding religious marriage ceremony, striking down statutory or aggravated rape and trafficking minors intra-border for sex.

  568. The polyamorist unions do not involve coercion, whereas the religious polygyny marriages usually do

    Doctrines & Covenants Section 132 is in itself coercive unChristian religious dogma

  569. Canada’s ‘National Post’ has good article,”The Stepford wives of Bountiful BC” by Barbara Kay. Also, Rosie DiManno(www.thestar.com) has another article on the polygamy reference case but a tad more scathing, this time. Kay thinks the FLDS wives came across like ‘Stepford Wives’ and DiManno thinks the world has been turned upside down listening to the sister wives. It is so telling that not one priesthood man, bishop, elder or ‘Profit’ stepped forward to chime in with the ‘Stepford Wives’?
    So telling and illustratitve of how much they fear their bankrupt values, lifestyles and outlaw ways will place them into jeopardy.

    Bishop Winston Blackmore claims to be willing to speak but wants the price of admission to be born by Canadian taxpayers? I am sure we are soon to here from him over the travesty of ruling in favor of anti-polygamy statutes and but not how expensive it is to import all these teenage brides.

  570. Buncha dam crooks.

  571. http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/930159–a-trip-to-bountiful

  572. So, the only FLDS male to testify was Truman Oler, brother to Bishop Jim Oler. His testimony recounted that his familarity with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was from BESS and it was only the emphasis on polygamy being protected by the section on ‘Religious Freedom’? Trumans testimony that his own reading of the charter, after leaving the FLDS community, is that the majority of rights and freedoms granted by the charter are unknown and most FLDS members are ignorant of what this document, yet they are supposed to being educated by the Canadian education system.

    Then we have the sister wives testimonies that contain accounts of illegal activities that go unreported or existing statutes that are unenforced within Bountiful, BC? It seems clear cut that rights and freedoms known, practiced and patriotically held by all Canada’s citizenry are simply ignored by the Bountiful FLDS community and don’t exist, except for the sole freedom of religion and only constricted legal statutes are recognized by their covert sect. The Theocratic dominance and Democratic diminution is now on the court’s record, uncontested and witnessed to by both-sides. Chief Justice Robert Bauman’s findings and evaluations will modernize the current legal assessments on polygamy, either continued illegality or a new found legal legitimacy.

    Closing statements won’t transpire until the end of March and then the judgment and findings will be awaited.

  573. Jim,
    There were other ex FLDS men who testified – like Howard Mackert. His testimony was a video. I am having their video affidavits sent to me from Canada and then I will find a way to post.

  574. From today’s Vancouver Sun –

    http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Court+hearing+highlighted+dark+consequences+polygamy/4190925/story.html

  575. CaJim,
    One ex FLDS man submitted an affidavit for the FLDS, but the AGBC did not choose to cross examine him so that he did not have appear to testify –
    Here it is –

  576. For those of you who are interested feminism as it relates to religious tradition, I recommend the recently released film on Islam, feminism, and honor violence – “When We Leave”

    http://whenweleave.com/

  577. Another “thanks” to BiB, and all the other others, posting the links to the various affidavits, etc, from Canada. Fascinating stuff! Reading them all at once causes eye strain, but it’s hard not to keep reading!

  578. I’m not finished posting yet. More to come

  579. More posts to follow on the Canadian Reference Case thread.

  580. The affidavit of Susan Barlow is quite terrible…

    It is also interesting that Winston has dropped all of his internet presence, I am wondering if it is because the court had someone download large amounts of his site to submit in the affidavit posted by S because he wouldn’t testify.

  581. Yes HHG the Susie’s depo is heartbreaking.

  582. BnB something very fishy about Witness #6 male affidavit. He is very short and to the point on two topics, first that the FLDS in Bountiful should be free to live their lifestyle and two that he still believes the teaching that polygamy is sacred and leads one into eternity. His total affidavit is only three (3) pages and 13 statements. He seems to be a voice from the abyss who, for a FLDS member, resides in outer darkness. His specific reference to his own familial family is incomplete, namely he had a total of 35 siblings and 9 sisters/brothers in direct bloodline but then he is vague about his mothers whom he doesn’t specify past,”…many mothers”? His total mother count must have been 6-12+ because he chose not to disclose it or the total number may have not been known. Marriages that took place at the YFZ Ranch were not shared with the at-large FLDS Church community for some reason. His attempt to speak up for the FLDS priesthood is quite circumspect and limited. He doesn’t state that equality and freedoms are afforded to everyone but says that he didn’t experience some claims made by others. I am reminded that after the YFZ Ranch Press Open House, that every FLDS member interviewed said no felonies had taken place yet to date there has been 7 convictions out of 7 indictments and counting?

  583. Liars lie. Thieves steal.

  584. AH, yes Granny but leaders of this religion are indicted or arrested and a Canadian Supreme Court reference case is argued concerning one of their principal tenets and not one prophet, bishop or elder is available to witness/testify. In fact Bishop Jim Oler and Principal Merrill Palmer of Bess withdrew their affidavita to avoid being called to the witness stand. So if you say one thing but do another, how truly credible are you? Who is fooled by the covert and restrictive FLDS Church fanaticism.

  585. CaJim, did you review the BCTF affidavits ? There are lots of problems in Bountiful School – and when the Teacher’s Federation publicized the problems of Bountiful School, a human rights violation case was filed.
    See the Canadian Reference Case thread.

  586. I can NOT believe those FLDS really thought Canadians, much less Texans, were such dumases as to swallow the FLDS dudu.

  587. CAJim, a lot of the ones who gave the press conferences were very aware of the underage marriages. Sally Jeffs and her daughter Merilyn (unibrow) among them. I don’t recall Annette Jeffs giving any interviews. She wanted her kids back and then hightailed it to the relative safety of New Braunfels. While she’s still a member of the group, she’s not part of the day to day goings on at the ranch.

  588. Bnb my guess is the new ‘H’ building at the YFZ Raunch will be ‘Warrants’ hen house of plural wives to be sequestered and guarded. We’ll see how well Sally and Annette Jeffs take being enshrined for time, while ‘Warrant’ serves out his sentence. I gotta believe ‘Warrants’ convictions will cause trouble in Short Creek and elsewheres in FLDS fiefdom.

  589. Please continue on General Discussion #47

    – – Admin

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