General Discussion #45

Continued from General Discussion #44

~ by FLDS TEXAS on January 4, 2011.

564 Responses to “General Discussion #45”

  1. WSJ hearing tomorrow.

  2. Well, ‘Warrant’ Jeffs is up another scheduled appearance tomorrow in the Tom Green County Courthouse. It will be interesting to see if this prophet has divined any legal counsel or he is still awaiting an act of higher providence. Seems with seven convictions of his fallen faithful, there is no escaping the poor odds he is facing, three first-degree felony(s) and seperately filed for trial, sequentially (Gulp!)

  3. So anyway Pat, I was joking I’m sure you knew with the Irish comment. My scots left Ireland about 300 years ago for this new world.

  4. Scots eh? Well, I’ll try to not hold that against ya lass, we can’t all help where we come from lol (I am just jesting with ya). I was born Irish, raised on the coasts, and there is not more beautiful country in the world I say. I make a living out of London though, I get a bit homesick at times, but I go back every so often and see Mom and Pops, so, it’s not so bad.

    We had an earthquake yesterday morning here, it was a bit discomforting, I was in the shower, and was grateful it wasn’t too bad, although I don’t EVER remember feeling an earthquake before. It was a mite different experience.

  5. I’m in the process of moving my blog over to wordpress, as a few of the fellows have me convinced that it’s a better blog host. So, I should have it up and running in a few days.

    Admin, your welcome to add me to your blogroll if you wish.

  6. Also, how do I get an invite to some of the invite only blogs on the blogroll?

  7. I would love to visit Ireland. The closest I ever got was a business trip to Bristol back in ’88.

  8. Yep, Warren has another visit with the Judge tomorrow and nephew Lehi has been told by the Court of Appeals to quit the stalling, he has until January 31, 2011 to file his briefs in both his sexual assault case and bigamy case.

    Raymond and Allen’s are due the 28th and now Lehi’s on the 31st. Hmmmmmm could get interesting at the Court of Appeals.

  9. Also tomorrow, British Columbia resumes its polygamy hearings.

  10. I’d not mind a visit to County Tyrone. Digging for whatever musty tax roll scraps I might find eh.

  11. @ E. Texas

    Of all the places in the world I could go, I feel like I grew up in the best and most beautiful, people don’t think of Ireland when they think of places to go, and that’s fine by me, keeps it Pristine.

    It is truly beautiful coastal and inland. Although it gets a wee bit chilly at times.

  12. speaking of the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy, here is an update from Daphne Branham –

  13. I’d like to go to Ireland, but when I actually have a chance to buy a ticket, I usually opt for someplace warmer.

  14. I carry some Irish DNA. My mom would have loved to visit Ireland before she died. Maybe I can do it for her. One of her all time favorite songs was I’ll Take You Home Again Kathleen. (I know it was authored by an American, but I think it’s considered an Irish ballad.) I cry when I hear it now.

  15. I had a great grand mother born in Galway, father’s side (NY). But most of the ancestors on that side are French Huguenot, Dutch and plain old English. The other side….well, never mind.

    Now that I have watched someone with Alzheimers relive their childhood and ask 100 times a day to “go home”, that song means Alzheimers to me and I cry every time I hear it also, but for different reasons.

  16. My father’s family is from East Galway and they arrived here in the early 1840’s. Those members of the family who remained in Ireland died in the Great Potato Famine.
    Any news from the courthouse?

  17. SAN ANGELO, Texas — Warren Jeffs, the head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, said he now has an attorney. Jeffs is in a Tom Green County court today for a pretrial hearing on charges of aggravated sexual assault, sexual assault and bigamy.

    This is a breaking news story. More details will be added as information becomes available.

  18. Here is a link to Mormon “scholar” Dr. W. John Walsh’s affidavit for the polygamy trial in canada in which he explains the necessity of plural marriage;

  19. According to Walsh the bottom line is that women are inherently more righteous than men so in order to have a “good” marriage free from the sinning man plural life involving ONLY multiple wives to one man is required.

    What I don’t get is that if women are inherently more righteous why do they need to get called into heaven?

  20. Here is warren’s lawyer’s bio
    sorry that is i

  21. Concur with HHG, it always struck me as ridiculous that women were inherently more holy than men in FLDS theology, but FLDS women need to be married and ushered into the Celestial Kingdom by their husbands.
    It would be much more logical to assert that one holy woman could be a spiritual guide, mentor, and sheperdess for several men, ushering them into the Celestial Kingdom.
    Another point illustrated by medical research – a woman in a monogamous marriage who does not practice birth control will have more children than one woman in a polygamous marriage will have by herself. Thus monogamy sans contraception brings more “holy souls” into the world than polygamy would.

  22. S,

    All the research I have done agrees with what you are saying about a monogamous marriage and birth rate. I’ll put a traditional Irish Catholic community up against that FLDS for birth rate any day.

    The FLDS count birth rate by MAN, rather than birth rate by WOMAN.

  23. I think “righteous” translates to “obedient”.

  24. Betty said – The FLDS count birth rate by MAN, rather than birth rate by WOMAN.

    Yes – That’s exactly how they reach their erroneous conclusion.

  25. Here’s the website for Warren Jeffs new Texas lawyer, Gerry Morris:

    Perhaps the best-known trial in which Mr. Morris was involved was the “Branch Davidian Trial.” In that case Mr. Morris won an acquittal on all charges for his client.

    This lawyer is the Branch Davidian polygamist cult’s lawyer!

  26. Why am I not surprised, A Texan … not surprised at all.

  27. And, as we all learned in that wonderful book “The Mythical Man Month”, it takes one woman nine months to produce a baby, no matter how many man hours are assigned to the task.

  28. Here’s another article on Jeffs new lawyer, appears the court will meet again latter this afternoon at 4PM.

  29. In the Canadian trial,
    if Walsh explains the righteousness theory wouldn’t that be a red flag that the theology is based on inequality and therefore can not be allowed?

    In his affidavit he slides over that point and hammers on the free will concept instead to assert that FLDS can, by definition, never by coerced.

  30. Wonder that Morris’ rates are

  31. There was very little physical evidence against the Branch Dividians that had one single interpretation. That is not the case in this trial. I think he will be convicted and sentenced for a very long time on the sexual assault charges because of the physical evidence. I don’t really care what happens to the bigamy charges.

  32. HHG,

    The idea that a righteous woman cannot enter heaven unless invited by a righteous man stands all the theories about the superiority and special status of women on it’s head. In the end, she can be damned on a whim of some other human. Hello? Christ? The whole thing falls apart right there.

    He can talk about the theory of free will all he wants to, but that does not reflect what really happens. The Quran says no more than four and they have to all be treated equally, and we know how well THAT is enforced.

  33. Here’s more on Jeffs new legal defense team, lead attorney, Gerry Morris, assistant team members Marjorie Bachman, and Suzanne M. Spencer. Here’s more bio info on Jeffs defense team:

    And this law firm is not cheap, heap big money for this.

  34. Morris has lectured on the best use of experts in child sexual assault cases and worked pro-bono in a case that attacked Texas Forensics labs. I think that points to how this trial will go.

  35. So did Mista Morris see the pics yet?

  36. Betty said: In the end, she can be damned on a whim of some other human. Hello? Christ? The whole thing falls apart right there.

    My apologies up front if I offend anyone with what I am about to say:
    Betty I am with you on your statement. I don’t get it and I don’t understand how women of today in LDS and FLDS still believe their salvation rests on a man between them and God.

    When I was living in Salt Lake a few years ago a co-worker’s husband was arrested for sexually abusing little boys. Not only was her life turned upside down but also was in fear for her and her children’s salvation. What a whacked out way to believe. I could hardly believe it – his horrible secret was between her and her God.

  37. Incest is a relative term.


    Jeffs fires Morris. Requests more time to get a new attorney. Jeffs refuses to sign the 120 day waiver. Court assigns him an attorney.

    I’m laughing so hard…he’s nuts…delay and it’ll go away
    delay and it’ll go away…

  39. “Fifty-first District Court Judge Barbara Walther appointed Fred Brigman, a San Angelo attorney, to Jeffs case after Jeffs discharged his counsel during a pretrial hearing Wednesday.”

    So who is Brigman?

  40. Really !

    What does he think he is doing? Is he that clueless. I wonder if the lawyer told him to plead guilty and he didn’t want to or
    The lawyer wanted him to plead innocent and he would like to put on a defense that he is prophet and God told him to? Or maybe the price was more than they can screw out of Short Creek?

    Better than a soap opera

  41. What a crappy act Warren put on.

    Guess it works for his fleeced.

    All the world’s a stage and we’re but players on it.

  42. granny, from what i’ve read, it’s Fred who?

  43. So Warren pulled a clown act in Judge Walther’s courtroom. Silly, foolish, delusional “profit of goofiness”.

  44. Makes me think that maybe Morris has scruples after all.

  45. I’m a little late with my 2 cents on Ireland…but I gotta add them…..I LOVE IT, my ancestors hail from County Kilkenny, been there 4 or 5 times, headed back again in May [on a cruise] and I will miss it the moment I leave it’s shores!

    Glad to see Warren’s finally got a lawyer. Now, let’s see just how many delays it’ll take before trial begins!
    I would think, with his ego, Warren would want to represent himself!

  46. WHOO HOO! The FLDS HOOT Church is making its mark as characters in cartoonville!

    Who knew Warren would go Southpark?

    Dang, if this was a movie nobody would believe it!

  47. OK…..he got the only lawyer in Texas who had a prayer of getting him a better deal and he FIRED him the first day????

  48. First day nothing Betty, after a few hours.

  49. I hope Gerry Morris keeps the entire retainer and when Warren fired him, he parted with giving Warren a salute and telling him AMF.

  50. Fred Brigman’s a good guy, so I’m told.

    AND a good lawyer.

  51. Don’t forget for one moment that with Jeffs, all the world’s a stage …

  52. May be, Granny, but the plot’s kind of dumb.

  53. Why do I have the feeling Warren wont get along with his new attorney? I suppose fireworks will fly when Fred is asked to be Wrights puppet, but perhaps they will squelch his pride with some tall green.

  54. LMAO

    Polygamy in action!

  55. Of course, if he just does a major meltdown and shoots himself in the foot, it wouldn’t hurt my feelings.

  56. Its headbanging upside the brickwall time in Texas!

  57. Fortunately, Warren’s run up against a Judge he can’t bamboozle. I feel sorry for Fred, he’s got to uphold his ethics and represent Warren at the same time. I’m not sure that the two can coexist.

  58. I think Brigman can handle the ethics. Why do you think those others never put on a defense? There ain’t any.

    Warren may pretend to defend himself and try to get off on crazy. That’s about as smart as a tumbleweed in west Texas. We may have smarter mesquite fenceposts in Texas.

  59. This is beyond strange. Warren needs a shrink.

  60. I’ve heard my name called all evening. The latest was
    I feel sorry for Fred

    Are you talkin’ to me?

    Does someone need an FU? LOL


  61. This is beyond strange. Warren needs a shrink.

    Nocturnal Anon said this on January 5, 2011 at 11:30 PM

    Emergency call needed to Dr. Beall.

  62. From the San Angelo Standard Times article, this is what Warren said this afternoon in court –

    “I just ask you to allow me a little more time in finding counsel that suits the needs I have,” Jeffs said. “I will seek hastily help from those who understand my needs. I’m not attempting to hinder in anyway the proceedings, only accomplishing what is needed to attain representation more suitable, not having full contact wherein I can interview on that can perform what I need. …”

    Holy mackerel, where did this guy learn English? Is this a prime example of his “prophesying” mumbo-jumbo confused double-speak? Can’t he just say it like it is in normal sentence structure?

    Now I can better understand the gibberish that comes out of Willie the Thugs fat lips.

    These guys speak in circles, not in tongue.

  63. He went to FLDS school. It’s not like he’s a real highschool graduate.

    Ain’t Warren jes’ special and all.

    Hey even Saddam Hussein finally got through high school by age 30. In Egypt, wasn’t it. At least Saddam kept trying.

  64. Yeah Granny, for a long time some certain “polygamy beat reporter” kept saying that Warren went to BYU. Not hardly!

  65. Maybe he was accepted at BYU for some remedial classes or something.

  66. This is the ‘NO Defense’ defense. Founded upon ‘Warrant’ oft quoted strategem of, ‘Answer Them Nothing’.

    See Mark 14:60-61, “And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, saying ‘Do You answer them nothing? What is it these men testify against you?’ But he kept silent and ANSWERED NOTHING. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, ‘Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”

    We have to remember the fanatical FLDS beliefs being employed in this Courtroom.

    Best of luck to Mr. Brigman, his best professional efforts will not be used/followed. Hope he knows to not take it personally, it’s owing to fundamental misbeliefs beyond his control.

  67. I think Brigman can handle the ethics. Why do you think those others never put on a defense? There ain’t any.

    Warren may pretend to defend himself and try to get off on crazy. That’s about as smart as a tumbleweed in west Texas. We may have smarter mesquite fenceposts in Texas.

    Toad you may have hit the nail on the head, ole Mitchell the polygamist used crazy to prevent trial for 8 years, now ole Warren thinks he’s smarter than Mitchell can actually pull it off, get a not guilty by insanity, play the game in a mental hospital and be cure and released a free man.

    Remember ole Warren was in Utah for most of the Mitchell trial and would have heard about alot of the details, and Jeffs thinks he’s got a winning plan, NOT IMO!

  68. A Texan, you make a valid point, but I don’t think Texas is going to buy that BS. Thank the lord that Texans are smarter than Uthans.

  69. Sorry Granny, but Warren Jeffs never stepped foot in a BYU classroom – even for remedial training. By the time Warren would have been college age, his father Rulon had been excommunicated from the LDS church and Warren would have been persona non gratta.

    Somehow word got out that Warren not only attended, but GRADUATED, from BYU and the past “polygamy beat reporter” fell for it hook, line and sinker.

    The truth is that it just never happened.

    It was all just more FLDS PR BS.

  70. Wossisname, is it Wright, who isn’t practicing in Texas, may still have advised Warren to put on the act he’s playing.

  71. I think Brigman can handle the ethics. Why do you think those others never put on a defense? There ain’t any.

    GT, the others signed up for the job, Brigman didn’t.

  72. Granny Toad

    I think you are on to it – Warren spoke under Wrights direction – so now I expect there will be these big mid day breaks each day so Brigman can get his daily data dump and strategy underwear adjusstment from Wright, who is Warrens real attorney.

  73. This is just more in the way of delay techniques – designed to exceed the 120 day time limit to invalidate the extradition agreement.

  74. I’m with S on this. I don’t think Warren’s ego would let him use an insanity defense. And, besides, the ample evidence from his own hand of an organized, methodical life with lucid notes all through the time of the crimes would make that pretty unsuccessful. He can act crazy all he wants to now, but the proof of the pudding was his sanity then. Someone orchestrating and recording a long flight from the FBI while simultaneously running a crime ring, a church, a town and several businesses is in full possession of his faculties.

    But I find it hard to believe that the limit of 120 days puts responsibility solely on the state and while allowing full freedom to boondoggle the time away to the defendant.

  75. ‘Warrants’ actions are more about Defiance than Defense. The Journal of Discourses (JOD) vol. 7:323 quotes the past Mormon leader John Taylor, ” Do you want to know what is our Constitution, what are our laws, and who are our lawgivers? The Lord is our King, the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, and He will rule over us”. John Taylor died a fugitive from US laws and the Prophet Jeffs was doing the same thing, when he was caught. He believes in FLDS Theocracy and not in American Democracy or his faith is in Celestial laws not US laws.

    Basically, his holding up his magical middle-finger in the Courtroom and attempting to play the spiritual martyr, he’s never changed his strategem of.”Answer Them Nothing”.

  76. he sure tried hard not to go to Texas.

  77. I agree with Caljim – it is answer them nothing, but because the case against him is apparently incredibly solid it gives Texas law a stiff backbone unlike Mohave County or Utah who folded under the answer them nothing and delay strategy.

    It would be interesting to know if in a parallel universe the raid took place in Az or Ut and they had the evidence Tx has if they would have held the line in the sand too.

  78. I also agree with Granny that Richard Wright was involved in convincing Warren to fire Gerry Morris. If he can’t represent Warren in Texas, then why did he attend yesterday’s hearing? Can Wright be charged for practicing law in Texas without a license?

  79. ‘Wazrrants’ true beliefs were stated back in 2003, ” I say, in the name of the Loed, there is no underage marriage in a priesthood (celestial) marriage. God has the right to rule. The Lord had me take these two underage girls on purpose, to show that I and we, this (FLDS) people, are with Him, with God, not fearing man”.

    All of these charges and activities by the Fundamentalist Mormons are wrought by a fanatical zealot prophet and his people that have run amuck in Schleicher County, Texas. They hold Texas law in disdain and have imported their firebrand religious teachings on an unsuspecting and victimized citizenry. Remember all the mistatements when they first arrived in El Dorado, the YFZ hunting lodge, the Temple construction, their hidden agenda to vacate from Utah, etc.

    They didn’t arrive because they saw the light, but rather they felt the heat from the State(s) of Arizona and Utah. This fugitive prophet and his faithful followers have invaded Texas to evade Justice.

  80. Jim, they weren’t being charged in those states, in fact the AGs refuse to prosecute polygamists.

  81. Granny very light sentences and some charges were dropped but the eight FLDS members indicted in Arizona, namely David Bateman, Vergel Jessop, Kelly Fischer, Rodney Holm, Donald, Randy, Terry and Dale Barlow the majority of whom were convicted. This was just one of the reasons Warren Jeffs left Colorado City and went fugitive to avoid indictment/arrest. Now you remember Dale Barlow he was the suspect that caused the YFZ Ranch Rescue, a convicted sex offender.

  82. Good Evening All…

  83. Actually CAJim, I think what originally triggered Warren’s hightailing it out of the Creek was the August 2003 conviction of Rodney Holm in Utah. But certainly those AZ cases influenced him.

  84. Didn’t also coincide with the beginning of the UEP case?

  85. Good evening to you, Mr O’Conner.

  86. Well, Rodney Holms conviction, illicit funding from the UEP Trust and the Arizona 8 indictments certainly recalls the atmosphere of fears in Utah and Arizona that triggered the ‘Texas Exodus’. Spreading out into other ‘Lands of Refuge’ has furher spread this unlawful activities into Nevada, South Dakota, Idaho, Colorado and other Texas regions. I suspect New Mexico and Wyoming, as well.

  87. Tráthnóna maith duit, Pat.

  88. Mormon doctrine religious scholar states that coercive religious polygyny is not acceptable, but admits that it does occur.

  89. CAJim, I have seen an address for FLDS in Ruidoso, New Mexico.

    Vehicles with Oklahoma plates driven by FLDS have also been seen around the YFZ. They are all over the western US.

  90. Granny Said:

    “He went to FLDS school. It’s not like he’s a real highschool graduate.

    Ain’t Warren jes’ special and all.

    Hey even Saddam Hussein finally got through high school by age 30. In Egypt, wasn’t it. At least Saddam kept trying.”

    According to “when men become gods” by Steven Singular, Warren graduated early from Jordan High in Sandy, UT with honors in the top 3 percentile of his class(p.26). After working at his fathers accounting company, he then started teaching at the new Alta Academy at the age of 17.

    Warren’s no dummy, he just plays one in court.

  91. Vic there’s a lotta fu on wiki also.

  92. Anon, Yes yes the Deseret includes Utah and Nevada then parts of Idaho, Oregon, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

    Granny and Pat, Gaelinn Ab’u!

  93. Slainte !

  94. FLDS accused of disrupting graveside service for baby
    Colorado City, AZ (ABC 4 News) – For years there has been friction in this polygamist community on the Utah – Arizona border. Who is to blame for that …

  95. Warren himself mentions in his dictations that he graduated from a public high school then did some sort of computer course by distance education while he was teaching at Alta Academy.

    He may have denied basic education to the next generation of FLDS youth, but he himself had the benefits of a secular education when he decided to do so

  96. His way of speaking is not ignorant, it’s obsolete. He sounds like a Victorian gentleman to me; pompous, long winded, using lots of words to say something and repeating it in slightly different ways.

  97. FLDS accused of disrupting graveside service for baby
    Colorado City, AZ (ABC 4 News) – For years there has been friction in this polygamist community on the Utah – Arizona border. Who is to blame for that …


    What a bunch of thugs.

  98. I am glad that the flds thuggery at the funeal was carried as a news story by a UT TV station. The nore this type of news gets out, the more people will see beyond the quaint dresses and willie’s claims of religious persecution

  99. Those FLDS really are vying for the assholes of the year award.

  100. I heard that the FLDS have put some sort of sign on the grave of the dead baby that says something along the lines of “This property is for faithful FLDS, not the dead children of spostates”. Can anyone confirm this?

  101. And they call themselves Christian?
    Compassion is one of the cornerstones of Christianity.
    Heartless people to refuse a proper burial.

  102. C-M calling them “heartless” is too kind.

  103. I’m going to tell you all, this is a very one sided story, what has been portrayed by Brent Hunsaker and Leroy/Violet is not close to the middle of the line story that is the truth. I doubt you want to hear the truth though, because you love to hate…So, hate on

  104. Thanks anony for offering to set us straight.

  105. I’m open to hearing the “real” story. Do tell.

  106. Anon 7:24pm: I’m going to tell you all, this is a very one sided story…

    So,Anon, enlighten us….You accuse us of hating but offer no explanation of how this story is “very one sided”. Tell us the other side of the story?? What is the “truth”, as you put it??? Or did you just drop by to spew your hate for us here?

  107. How many people go into a cemetery anywhere in the world and dig their own hole without getting permission or direction from the groundskeeper? How many people refuse to accept that direction when it comes, you people are so blinded by your bigotry, that you jump up and down in glee when you hear something about those “Big Bad FLDS” Folks, you know, someday I believe that people will get what they give out, and someday, you are not going to be near as bad or evil as some people are going to spread that you are, yet no one is going to believe you, because they love to hate, just as you do

  108. Anon @ 8:38, they got permission from the Special Fudiciary and they buried the child in the “Stubbs” section of the cemetery. If one of the FLDS would have returned phone calls, then maybe they could have asked the groundskeeper to dig the grave for them, but that didn’t happen. I would love to hear the “FLDS” side of the story, why they took pictures and drove cars around in circles honking horns while the service was going on. I’d love to know why that sign was left on an innocent baby’s grave. Can you please enlighten us.

  109. A man in Pakistan was beaten up by two of his wives for allegedly conducting a secret marriage with a fourth, and for planning to marry a fifth.

    According to the Telegraph, polygamist Mian Ishaq was reportedly attending a friend’s wedding reception with his third wife when his first two spouses, identified as Mehvish and Uzma, arrived at the place.

    The two women showed up with relatives and reportedly began overturning tables and threatening Ishaq’s life, before attacking him with their shoes until police hauled them away.

    Uzma told the press that her husband deserved to be beaten.

  110. So Anon – This wouldn’t be the “triumphant” return of “The Truth Will Prevail” spin site, would it ? Donald Richter, is that you ?

  111. Notice how Winston Blackmore just gets fatter and fatter.

  112. Blackbird, does that post from the Pakistani News surprise you ? Rates of domestic violence in Moslem polygamist households are much higher than rates of domestic violence in Moslem monogamous households (50% or more of the members Moslem polygamous marriages report domestic violence in their marriages)

  113. By the way, the FLDS are much more bigots than those who criticize them, bigoted against blacks, apostates, the Catholic Church, gentiles, anyone who criticizes their human rights violations and anyone in their cult who dares to think for themselves. That is pretty bigotted.

  114. The sad part is that many of the victims of polygamy and domestic abuse throughout the world are really just children, girls 11-17.

  115. Anonymous on January 7, 2011 at 8:38 PM please come back and tell us more.

    Why was Willie Jessop at the ceremony? Is Willie Jessop related to this little 9-month-old baby the family was trying to bury in peace?

    Why was the original burial hole (that is part of the Stubbs family burial plot) filled in and another burial hole dug for the baby?

    Who ordered that? Was it the cemetery groundskeeper? Why would he do that?

    We want to hear both sides to the story. Please do tell us the FLDS’ side of the story so we can have balance.

    It was your suggestion, so tell away.

  116. I’d love to hear the spin the FLDS put on this story, it’s got to be a humdinger. In answer to Willie Jessop being related, the mother of the infant and Willie are first cousins, they share the same grandfather, Vergel Yeates Jessop. So not only can’t Willie have compassion for an infant, it’s worse because this infant is his kin.

  117. Willie and Donavon did their business over the telephone, they were not present.

    Donavon told his Leroy for a $1000.00 the grave would be dug, which included a cement vault. The family said they only had $200.00 and could they pay it off if the grave could be dug next to her grandfather.

    Leroy informed Donavon a grave had been dug, and Donavon informed Leroy it was in the wrong place.
    Leroy thanked Donavon and asked if the grave could be placed near the grandfather.

    A friend check the grave site the morning of the burial and found it had been filled in and a new grave dug far away from the grandfather.

    The grave that was filled in, was excavated by friends and her funeral proceeded with the side show provided by the heartless thugs.

    As for Donavon, I hope he never has to experience what his brother’s family has gone through.

  118. So not only can’t Willie have compassion for an infant, it’s worse because this infant is his kin.

    Anonymous said this on January 7, 2011 at 11:30 PM

    Well, they don’t call him WILLIE THE THUG for nothing!

  119. How are Donovan and Leroy related to Shane and Genevieve?

  120. Thanks Anonymous on January 7, 2011 at 11:47 PM for your input.

    It is just so sad that brothers have to go through this because one chose to leave the “religion” and the other didn’t.

    I am a firm believer in the saying “Blood is thicker that water.” Apparently the FLDS don’t agree with this saying.

    I agree with your comment that As for Donavon, I hope he never has to experience what his brother’s family has gone through.

    Brent Hunsaker summed it up pretty well, it is just “a new depth of animosity and just plain meanness” on the part of the FLDS.

  121. When these previous cemetery skirmishes have occurred, I recall that the policy was that the FLDS wanted to dictate the terms and ex-FLDS would be afforded a seperate internment area and away from the approved FLDS internments have been made.

    The law enforcement and legal views were that the FLDS wasn;t the sole arbiter on when, where and how internments would be allowed/approved. It doesn’t surprise me to read that the FLDS faction is attempting to run roughshod over this issue, regardless if legal rights nor law enforcement nor UEP management have stated.
    If this view constitutes HATE to you annonymous, I guess you only hold your dim view and narrowed view based upon your righteous perspective.

  122. I heard that the FLDS have put some sort of sign on the grave of the dead baby that says something along the lines of “This property is for faithful FLDS, not the dead children of apostates”. Can anyone confirm this?

    Anonymous said this on January 7, 2011 at 6:20 PM

    If this is true, then it is WAY beyond TACKY! It is unacceptable and terribly cruel.

    If this is true, there is no goodness in their religion; anyone who would do such a thing as this is simply evil, wicked, mean and nasty.

  123. Maybe Warren is needing that extra money?

  124. How many people go into a cemetery anywhere in the world and dig their own hole without getting permission or direction from the groundskeeper


    What does it matter? You don’t need a very big hole for a little tiny baby.

  125. Anon 8:38 PM

    “How many people go into a cemetery anywhere in the world and dig their own hole without getting permission or direction from the groundskeeper?”


    This is your “other side of the story”?


    OK well, in the REST of the world, communities answer the phone, and they dont play bigoted games with people over religion.

    You do realize the cities and various people out there in the Crack are currently under investigation for civil rights abuses? Right now, today?

    Well, this is just another civil rights abuse. And while they may act like a major ass at someones funeral, the moniker “Major Ass” sticks to those people until they too have their own funeral, and maybe someone will carve it on their tombstone at that time as a friendly reminder.

  126. Is Carling Cemetery lots platted?

    Most cemeteries in the real world are property that is purchased and has a deed or title.

    Maybe Wisan should subdivide the cemetery.

  127. What horror of a memory, for that wheelchair bound mom, to have suffered loss of her baby, pain of her own injuries and then have a macabre horror show put on for the infant’s funeral, burial next to the infant’s grandfather.

    Put on your prairie dress, Willie, and prance.

  128. Anon

    Like so many other things, the cemetery is probably run like everything else flds out there, by the seat of their pants and the whim of whomever is king mojo tut for the day.

    Its disturbing to know there is a place like that in the US that continues the civil rights abuses.

    Hopefully the subdivision will happen before long and this nonsense will go away.

  129. correction

    I do realize that with the subdivision, the nonsense wont go away, it will just take most of the wind out of their sails when they want to abuse others like they have in the past.

  130. The point is, Anon 28:55 AM, they had permission from the entity that has the legal authority (at least for now and for five years now). And there is NO excuse for a hostile and harassing circus during the funeral nor for notices to be placed on the grave itself. With absolutely no co-operation from the FLDS, I don’t see how Wisan would be any more successful in dividing the cemetery than he has been at dividing the property of the living.

    “In the Real World” professionals who deal with death make a point of being respectful of these ceremonies even if they are rather aggressive about getting paid, etc. The only purpose of putting a notice on the innocent baby’s grave is to emotionally harm those who come to pay their respects. It would not get any sort of problem solved, legal or financial, it’s just harassment!

  131. I think the Mojave County Sheriff needs to have a constant presence in the community and take the ability to abuse the so called apostates away from the local yocals.

    With this kind of behavior the FLDS are just showing their true colors and confirming that they aren’t a religion, but a hate group.

  132. I dont know whats taking them – seems like they dont care and hope it just goes away.

  133. I dare anyone to bury an unbaptised baby or a non-catholic in a private Catholic cemetary. I suggest that it is the feduciary that stirs the pot with the body of a non-member placed in a cemetary reserved for members of a private church.
    If someone wants to be intered in a religious plot of ground then the first requirement is that that person is a member of the religion that sets the burial requirements.
    What is good enough fior every other religion in this country seems to be ignored when it comes to the desecration of the flds burial grounds.
    Why not bury a few Moslems or Christians in a Jewish cemetary and see what kind of problems arise. Better yet plant bernie Madoff next to a few people he ripped off and listen to the howls.

    If it isn’t your religion you don’t make the rules folks and if you chose to leave a religion you neither get your money back or recieve any of the benefits of burial in a spot with persons of a religion that you have spurned.

  134. ZXC,
    There are non Catholics in Catholic graveyards. If your family purchased a plot in a Catholic graveyard, you are entitled to bury members of your family in the graveyard, whether or not your family members were observant Catholics. We have such individuals in our family who are not observant Catholics, but they are buried in Catholic gravesites.

  135. ZXC, you are wasting your breath here, they have no desire to believe anything, unless it is vile and repulsive, like dogs to their own vomit.

  136. As for the practice of burying non baptized children in Catholic cemeteries, that DOES occur. When a child is stillborn, and the parents are or were Catholic, it is permitted.

  137. ZXC,

    You are just plain wrong. The people buried in a cemetery are those who have been given that right from whoever OWNS it. The fiduciary has that right, and based on five years of court cases, has determined a wider circle of beneficiaries than those endorsed by Warren Jeffs. The fact that you disagree with that legal decision does not give you the right to violate someone’s funeral service or place notices on gravesites of the innocent. If you want to challenge it legally, go right ahead. But there is no reason for the psychological torture of those who are grieving.

    As far as the Catholic cemetary notion; you are placing your own world view over the Catholics without any knowledge of them. You are assuming that a “Catholic cemetery” is owned by the Catholic Church itself and thus there is one worldwide policy. That is not the case. It really depends upon who owns the cemetery and what their policies are. In many cases a “Catholic” cemetery is owned privately or by a seperate not for profit organization which is not necessarily the Catholic Church. Sometimes it’s land that was given in trust (another legal entity separate from the Church) and it has a charter or set of rules. It might build a chapel to be consecrated or in other ways partner with local churches. But access is determined by the owners and/or their charter or by laws. They are not all the same; I know for certain of Protestants who are buried in the same cemetery that my parents are buried in.

    Catholic hospitals are usually owned by non profits and “endorsed” by the Catholic Church. Not only do they service those of other religions on a regular basis, but they often have budget for taking care of those who cannot afford care and they give that out according to need, not according to the faith of the person. I know this for a fact because several years back my husband was a recipient of such charity.

  138. So, Anon at 11:44, are you saying that there was not any harassment at the actual ceremony and there was not a notice put on the grave? Or are you saying that such harassment is acceptable behavior? Are you saying that the FLDS has legal rights to determine who is buried where, or are you saying that legal rights don’t matter to you?

  139. I know for a certainty that there was no harassment, yes, there was some observation by FLDS, for documentation later, I didn’t hear one horn honk, cars were not driving in circles around the service, and there was no sign put on the grave site…the only reason there was filming was so that FLDS could back up their claims that Wisan is waging socialogical warfare and stirring the pot for his own aggrandizement.

  140. Betty,
    I was just going to ask some question about this. I am not at all familiar with legalities of burial, except for the notion of consecrated ground, but I assume that if I don’t own the ground that consecration of it does not entitle me to control it…

    Since the burial ground belongs to the UEP then it is NOT an entity of the FLDS church according to law?

    Apart from which a conflict on the legality of the burial does not give parties a right to behave like jerks. (if they so behaved as reported).

  141. You don’t have to film the funeral to prove that a burial took place, Anon. That’s BS, sorry.

  142. Who the hell is telling FLDS doodiehats this bullcrap to believe? They’re pure out of it, hatefilled and ugly meanspirited in addition to ignorant.

  143. HHG,

    The confusion is between the idea that the ground itself is holy. This goes back to a time when the Church itself was an entity of power in feudal governments and owned whole towns. The cemetery was often adjacent to the church itself and the ground was literally blessed in a ceremony when the church was built. It’s interesting to note, though, that in the Civil War in England, the French Revolution and other such changes in history, sometimes the ownership of the church buildings and grounds transfered to the government or into Protestant hands, so the Church does not always still own those sites.

    But in modern context in the US, such history certainly does not apply. Frequently, a church building and all it’s holdings is owned by the Diocese and it is chartered through the US government in that way. For instance, when you read in the news that because of legal fees a Catholic Church is bankrupt, it is just that dioceses. The Vatican is not liable and it is not bailing them out and the Vatican itself is definitely not bankrupt. That “religious trust” operates as the interface between the spiritual world and the governments of the land and although the FLDS doesn’t seem to grasp that concept, the Catholic Church is pretty comfortable with it.

    “Consecrated ground” in a modern context is actual short hand for a whole set of procedures for Christian burial. So not being baptized or being a suicide or being excommunicated will certainly result in a refusal to requests for certain rights and ceremonies. The church examines the wishes of the deceased only to determine that the rights it is performing do not interfere with those wishes or with the law.

    The Catholic cemetery in my town says right on the webpage that it welcomes people of all faiths and serves the community at large. I know for a fact that they allow cremation urns, for instance, because I have seen them.

    Here is a nice summary of concerns of ritual regarding a Christian Burial according to the Catholic Church.

    Like I said, ZXC is flat out wrong.

  144. If a non-religious entity decides to desecrate a religious burial site by intering non-members of a particular religion the legality or illegality of the issue does not change the fact that a non-member does not meet the requirements of the religious entity.
    I’m sure Hitler had enough law and guns on his side to be buried in a jewish cemetary if he so chose……
    it seems that cemetarys are a particular treat for the anti flds crowd. Have you found all those dead babies on YFZ yet or do you plan an excavation soon?
    Desecration of churches seems to be a habit for those with a mind to spread rumors so I guess one more mountain made out of a molehill is nothing new.
    As far as Catholics and their burial requirements I am well aware of the requirements of my religion and exceptions to religious tradition are rather rare and are an issue for the congregation in question or the managers of the cemetary that are appointed by the parish.

    We just have another example of a secular apointee desecrateing church property because he can…..pure and simple.

  145. ZXC,

    CEMETERY not CEMETARY. When the word is underlined in red while you are typing, that means you misspelled it.

    It’s obvious that you did not read anything I wrote and are being completely illogical. If you had read the links I posted, you would realize that the Catholic Church has been very flexible through out history on this topic, more than you seem to think. May I direct you to two quotes from the link I provided:

    ‘As it often happened that a Catholic graveyard was the only available place of burial in a large district, it has been decided as a matter of necessity that in such cases it was possible to allow Protestants to be buried in a consecrated graveyard (S. C. Inquis., 23 July, 1609).’

    Shows that even during the heat of the Religious wars, the church sometimes allowed communities to bury their dead there, even Protestants.

    “It hardly needs saying that at the present day in almost every part of the world the prescriptions of the canon law regarding burial are in conflict with secular legislation in more than one particular. In such cases the Church is often compelled to waive her right, in order to prevent greater evils. ”

    What greater evils might there be? Well, perhaps, making a public spectacle at the burial of an innocent child? Or ongoing, blood and money sucking litigation perchance? Setting one family member against another? So, even the Catholic Church thinks there are things more important than the desecration of the property of the Catholic Church.

  146. ZXC you overlooked who was responsible and decided to form the UEP Trust into a civil trust under Utah venue/law. I believe your church prophet and elders were the decision makers. Also, the UEP Trust President Jeffs failed to respond to subpoenas that placed the trust into jeopardy and forced the Courts to appoint a Trustee. Living in your imaginary theocratic world leaves ill prepared to deal in the legal realities. Damaging crops, scattering or killing livestock, trespassing or falsely claiming trespasses and spoling silo grains are more secular hatemongering facts that go along with your cemetary claim.

    Foolishly ignoring the law, duly elected local authoritiies and trying to justify vigilanty activities falls flat on this blogsite. Now that Warren has awoken the ‘Beast’ there will be more dire consequences.

  147. Mr Beswick, you seem to forget that we don’t acknowledge Wisans or Lindbergs bigoted decisions, they are both waging a war financed by Dan and others (including you) to destroy our religion…They have no more right to tell anyone who can be buried where, than I do to tell the Pope who can be buried at the Vatican…As much as you would like to pretend that it is so, doesn’t make it a fact. The trust takeover was illegal, an unmitigated attempt to destroy and bankrupt a religion that everyone loves to hate. Keep on going Jay, sooner or later all the deceit and corruption will come out.

  148. Hello Anonymous 2:27

    Are you aware that it was the FLDS attorney Parker who asked the state to take over the trust?

  149. TO: Anonymous said this on January 8, 2011 at 2:27 PM

    You are so brain washed by Warren’s dribble.
    Warren is and continues to destroy “your religion”.

    Your profit and his mistress Naomie wined and dined across America, experiencing “a wicked generation”, sun tanning, playing on motorcycles, driving, Porsche’s, acting like James Bond, while the FLDS faithful flock fear for their salvation, children and lively hoods.

    Warren is bankrupting the UEP by answering nothing.
    He is a selfish, self-center LOST SOUL……LOST.

    Warren’s god is sex, money, and power PERIOD!


    Thank God for giving Dan Fischer money and brains to stand up to Warren and give those who fell victim to “your religion”.

  150. Anon @2:27, you need to understand that your group’s own attorney, Rod Parker is the very person who begged the state to step in and rescue the trust so it wouldn’t be lost to all those who depended on it. As of right now, this red hot minute, Wisan is the person in charge of the trust whether you acknowledge it or not. That’s like saying that you don’t acknowledge Obama as President, so it’s not really so. You must have done well in school.

    As for cemeteries, a non-catholic can be buried in a catholic cemetery. It happens all the time here. A Catholic family bought a plot in a Catholic cemetery and several of the children stray from the religion, but when it comes time to bury them, they are buried in the family plot in the Catholic cemetery. Good try at an argument, but doesn’t hold water.

    As for you saying that there was no harassment and disruption, that’s complete crap. The Mojave County Sheriff wasn’t called out for nothing. He didn’t give warnings to the FLDS to leave the grave alone for nothing. Jonathan didn’t tell the people there that Willie and Donovan were being held back for nothing. You theory here doesn’t work either.

    Please come back and try again later.

  151. One of Bill Shapley’s kids:

    Birth Date: 10/25/87
    Address : 179 S 100 E, Ivins, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    00:39:00 01/08/11 Stoker, Matt SCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-1a-704 PREVIOUS OWNER PLATES CM WCJ7 270.00 270.00
    53-3-202(1) NEVER OBTAINED LICENS CM WCJ7 185.00 185.00
    41-1A-1303(1)ii EXPIRED REGISTRATION/ CM WCJ7 40.00 40.00
    41-12A-303.2 NO PROOF OF INSURANCE BM WCJ7 400.00 400.00
    41-6a-502 DUI-1st,2nd OFFENSE BM WCJ7 1405.00 1405.00

  152. ZXC, the UEP Trust become a legal entity of its own and then was no longer part of the FLDS church. Your former prophet Rulon Jeffs was the man behind that move. He did it in response to losing the Jeffs vs Stubbs, et al lawsuit in 1998. Deny Rulon Jeffs’ involvement all you want to, but he is the man behind the change declaring the UEP Trust a legal entity separate from the church.

    Rulon Jeffs had it declared a legal entity of the United Effort Plan, but that is a concept and way of life, not a church. The UEP Trust is all about real estate property, nothing more, and it became is own separate entity.

    I guess Rulon Jeffs, Fred Jessop, LeRoy Jeffs, Warren Jeffs, Truman Barlow, Winston Blackmore and James Zitting goofed when they created that “Amended Declaration of Trust” just to spite the apostates.

    It doesn’t look like the lawyer was that smart either.

  153. Lordylordy that one FLDS is so ignorant and brainwashed it hurts to read the delusional drivel it spouts. Fairytales. Hon there is no such religion as sexual assault (rape) of children or polygamy. It just ain’t so, never has been, never shall be.

  154. ZXC I have a question for you. When the FLDS name the men who have passed on the keys of priesthood authority, why do they omit Charles Zitting who was a prophet in “The Work/Priesthood Work” (your church before it was renamed to the FLDS)?

  155. I have no hard feelings towards any of you…You think it hurts to listen to my drivel? It’s going to hurt way worse (at least for the crows) when you guys all start eating it…Perhaps they can substitute blackbird for ya’ll. I heard several thousand just up and died in Arkansas a week ago.

  156. Hi Anon, since you’re still here, can you please answer my question about Charles Zitting? I have always wondered why he is omitted from the list.

  157. To anon @ 11:44 then why the heck are you here? Trolling for sport?? Like beating your head into a wall for fun?? Oh yeah you don’t have the family of a dead baby to pick on today…

  158. Actually, the Pope is the legal ruler of Vatican City. So, the analogy is not valid. Unfortunately for you, you do not live in an independent theocracy, but in the US of A. So the court rulings do, indeed apply to you.

    But again, you miss the point. Would Jesus be cruel to a family who is burying an infant child because it was His right to do so? I think not.

  159. Anonymous for your information I am unaware of Jay Beswick posting here and if you are assuming that I am Beswick you are, again, mistaken. Truly any hate that I feel is for the fanatical believer blinded by lies, half-truths and their perceived persecution when the truth or facts are discussed. I simply don’t buy that prosecution constitutes personal persecution to any religion that reasons away their freedoms, rights or civil order to another person or prophet.

  160. ZXC,

    There are PLENTY of non Catholics buried in the plots in Brooklyn owned by my family. My family OWNS multiple plots in Catholic cemeteries and has OWNED those plots since the 1840s when they came to the US from Ireland. Our family determines WHO will be buried there, NOT the CHURCH. There ARE non – Catholics buried in those plots along with Catholics. The Catholic Church WOULD NOT refuse burial to an INNOCENT child of an apostate ex Catholic, and the FLDS should not deny that right to an INNOCENT child if they wish to be viewed as Christians.

  161. Remember what Jesus said about children :
    Matthew 19: 13-15

    13 Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

    14Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

  162. From the Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 18:

    1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

    2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

    5“And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

  163. Jay Beswick occasionally posts her under the pseudonym Fincenmib – he is NOT CAJim

  164. Those lil FLDS fellas and gals can’t help paranoia whether it nature or nurture, they think they’re exhalting Warrren Jeffs or some danged nutty thing.

  165. Crow, blackbird, whatever you think we are going to have to eat, think again. I’m now wondering if you aren’t Lyle posting. I heard he wasn’t in favor of making a scene at the funeral.

  166. Arkansas is not Texas for the geographically challenged anon. And we have plenty of our own birds here, if I have to I would eat a big old plate of grackle but I really don’t think that is going to happen. The question is would you eat a big old plate of seagull if you are proven wrong?

  167. I appreciate it when Scripture is used on here to make a point. S, thank you for quoting those verses about what Jesus would do. I have grown weary of trying to dialogue on here because so often there is so much mean spirited remarks. I often wonder just what Jesus is thinking about the FLDS leader who has brought his followers to such a situation as they face. I hope this all ends soon and the people will wake up before they lose everything.

  168. Direct hit, S. Thanks.

  169. Wow… such goings on here! I’m just going to change the subject a tiny bit before I head out to a nice barbecue party…

    *climb up on soapbox*

    cemetery (not cemetary) … vigilante (not vigilanty) … … and don’t get me started on the penchant for so many who write (not right) chose when they mean choose; loose when they mean lose; and rite instead of right – none of which will be caught by a spell-checker. Gah!

    Blogs and forums and social sites (not sights) are rife with misspelled words. I’m a crazy word-nut, I admit it. But in this day of rampant texting, what we have to do is go for contextual meaning which is what I try to do even while my eyes are rolling up into my head.

    *fall off soapbox*

    See y’all later. 😉

  170. For decades I wanted someone to snag me a raven nestling, preferably a girl, for a pet. I was in UT headed out toward Topaz mountain and the CCC camp and pony express line when I tricked me one and wanted to keep her but didn’t think I’d get away with stashing her through the airport when I left. She wanted my Stuff! I had trail mix, she’d separate the raisins out and bury them by tree roots or rocks and only eat the other stuff. I used a chicken catching trick, drawing in the dirt with a stick to keep her eyes and brain interested until I could grab her by the legs from behind, then tuck her head under her own wing where it’s dark.

    She’d been slashing my bare legs with that scimitar of a beak to make me feed her, I was all bloody, so I thought it was fair to trick her. Anyway I released her back where I got her before I left. They live about 50 years you know. I wonder if she remembers me.

  171. Love you, E Texas. That was very entertaining.

  172. See more on the story under discussion here –

  173. @Betty… thanks – love you too (not to).

    @Granny… absolutely loved your raven story! And you even spelled separate correctly! *grin* But my favorite phrase was “that scimitar of a beak”. Plus, I learned something… didn’t know ravens lived about 50 years.

  174. I may make typos can’t see or feel all that well but was born with spelling genes, heh.

  175. Me too, Granny – thanks especially to my mother, who was my crossword puzzle word-nut predecessor.

  176. Hey E. Texas, thanks so much for interjecting and pointing out the misspellings here. I was climbing the ceiling myself earlier today reading about the “cemetary” and was going to comment until I saw that Betty (I think?) pointed out the correct spelling before I did.

    There is no reason to get it so wrong on such a consistent basis because now this blog has some semblance of spell-check by underlining our boo-boos in red (as I think Betty also pointed out), so we can attempt to get the word spelled correctly.

    However, as you pointed out, if a word is spelled correctly yet used in the wrong context, then no spell-check in the world is going to fix that.

    There is never a replacement for a proper education. Warren got his in Salt Lake City; why can’t the brothers and sisters in the flock get theirs?

    I hope you enjoyed your barbecue party. It’s always nice to “hear” from you. Happy New Year!

  177. Your not going to convince me that its’ my grammar you was talking about.

  178. Thanks, Anon at 12:01 AM… Happy New Year to you too (not to).

    Up until just before Warren graduated with honors from high school, everyone was being educated in public schools. As soon as Alta Academy got underway around ’72, homeschooling was all there was after that… at least in my circles.

    Then public education went downhill in the Crick after the big migration from SLC.

    I have nothing against homeschooling… it just needs to be well-rounded and have some outside socialization worked into the curriculum.

    The barbecue party was terrific and ended with some fireworks – leftovers from New Years – and a lovely bonfire!

    I go slumber now. Y’all have a good night!

  179. LOL, Betty!

  180. Then public education went downhill in the Crick after the big migration from SLC.
    E. Texas said this on January 9, 2011 at 12:14 AM

    Maybe so, because all of a sudden there was a barrage of people migrating down south. But I tend to think that the education in the Creek went downhill real fast because Warren ordered all of the FLDS children out of the public schools shortly after his father died and he took control over things.

    I just don’t think that the faithful followers were equipped to take on such a monumental task to start homeschooling all of these hundreds of children overnight.

    And, now a generation later, there are uneducated pre-teens with the responsibility of “teaching” their siblings because Mom is too busy having babies.

    I know this because I have first-hand knowledge of this. And this is just only going to perpetuate the “blind leading the blind” quality of education in Colorado City.

    It is very discouraging, but it may be exactly what Warren wants and needs to control his flock.

  181. Anon@12:39, you may be correct, but with a generation of uneducated people, who’s going to be able to contribute to the coffers of the group?

  182. FLDS teach those to drive a front loader, 18 wheeler, or shoot a nail gun by age 11 or 12 and put them to work out of town. Or get them pregnant.

  183. Dia dhuit ar maidin

  184. A Bonny Sunday Morning to you all. I have one question. If the FLDS are banned from internet, then why do we seem to have some commenting here? Are they all banned? Is there some who get “the privilege” of internet. Is there a mass underground internet movement? I am just wondering, how much of what you really hear about those groups is fact, and how much is fiction. Not being educated about the groups till just recently, I am open to being so.

  185. Yes, Anon 12:39 AM you hit the nail on the head. That barrage of people started moving to the Creek from the Salt Lake valley before the 2000 Winter Olympics. And Warren DOES want the flock to be undereducated – the better to control.

    Warren is using a very basic fear-based control. What good is all that education when the end is nigh? Just follow orders!

  186. Pat, my Celtic brother, some of the people living in Colorado City live there to remain with their families, but they are not believers. An example is the poster iitmoc who also posts anonymously here. Ex FLDS members also post here. There is high speed internet service in Colorado City.

  187. Top o’ the mornin’ to you Pat.

    The FLDS are definitely not banned from the internet. Many make their living over the internet. If anything, they are told not to visit certain kinds of sites. It’s certainly possible (and probably) some do see what’s going on, like iitmoc and others, but they dare not speak out within the community out of fear for their loved ones. They are extremely practiced at denial.

    As for “how much of what you really hear about those groups is fact, and how much is fiction.”
    Not knowing what your sources are, I can safely say there is a great deal of fiction.

    It’s pretty simple: there are two sides to every story (at least). What you don’t – and probably never will – hear is the BARE TRUTH from the FLDS side of the story. Period.

    The media gets a lot wrong. They need something to sell, after all.

    How did you become interested in these “groups?”
    Do you have a website we can visit?

  188. East, here is a link to Pat’s blog :

  189. I would say that the movie “Sons of Perdition” is an accurate reflection of what goes on in Colorado City / Hildale.

  190. Thanks, S.

    I have yet to view Sons of Perdition, so I’m not able to comment on its accuracy.

  191. Anon@12:39, you may be correct, but with a generation of uneducated people, who’s going to be able to contribute to the coffers of the group?

    Answer : They still can make a lot of money with their construction companies using large pools of poorly educated male teenagers who don’t realize that they are being paid a below the market rate for their labor.No doubt these male teenagers are holding out hope that if they are obedient, they someday may be given a wife by the hierarchy.

  192. The Sons of Perdition was released in Britain under a different name, but it is now available on Netflix.

  193. The thing is, some of the big money that fueled the FLDS in the last few decades came from technology companies. Without education, that’s not going to continue to happen. And construction is very sensitive to the economy, which is bad right now. That’s got to be hard on them as individual families and as a group.

  194. Anon at 1:25 AM and Betty, a person doesn’t need to use “good” grammar, read well (and have knowledge of secular literature) or know how to spell well to lay tile or make widgets.

    Fortunately, the boys who “apprentice” as carpenters are taught math and geometry so they can properly frame a structure.

    They send out work crews all over the region for construction projects. And when you’re the low bidder (because you don’t have to pay your child-labor crew), you usually get the contract. So, even in a bad economy they can find construction work.

    To be fair I’ll say that it also depends on the family. Some families stress education more than others do.

    After reading what Warren said in court on Wednesday, I am further convinced that the FLDS doesn’t stress “good” grammar. What a load of archaic mumbo jumbo that was. And he graduated from a public high school!

  195. There has been a rebirth of FLDS enrolling in the local community college over the past 1-2 years. They have a good nursing program there. So at least some young folks are getting a higher education. But it is not proportional to the size of the population.

  196. And construction is very sensitive to the economy, which is bad right now. That’s got to be hard on them as individual families and as a group.

    Betty, yes that has been very hard on them. What’s also been hard is Warren’s demands of more money from them to first pay for his luxurious life on the lam and now pay for the 50 plus attorneys they have hired.

  197. Folks living near the YFZ Ranch see FLDS making big gains into cement and construction work on West Texas wind towers, the alfalfa farm (Pioche, NV) and the New Era operations in Las Vegas show that the FLDS sect doesn’t lack for viable means of support. I think Warren when he rose to control took a new direction with his ‘scatter the flock’ policy. He realizes that the control, outside influences and greater apostasies are unavoidable and the UEP Trust battle is being lost. The newer ‘gulag’ style refuges are much more to his liking and asserts his greatest control. I am amazed at how few active FLDS members knew anything about what the ‘true believers’ at the gulags had been told about his ‘scatter the flock’ policy. The new arrivals, especially ‘Child Brides’, being told at the YFZ to leave their suitcases (still unpacked) in their closaets because they may not be staying or might still be judged to be unworthy. What a mind control basis to instill fear and absolute obedience, Keep Sweet y’all or else!

    Warren has now been shown to have been an archtect of change and was willing to choose out his ‘Sheep from the Goats’, his Barlow schism was just a warm up to his new ‘Lands of Refuge’ plan.

  198. The flds leaders would need to do a balancing act regarding further education for flds members. If flds women and men are allowed to go to college they may question the flds doctrine. They may also realize that they can make a life for themselves outside of the flds community. I would support more education for the flds as well as for most people.

  199. Family hopes cemetery dispute will heal divides between FLDS and non-FLDS

  200. ZXC I have a question for you. When the FLDS name the men who have passed on the keys of priesthood authority, why do they omit Charles Zitting who was a prophet in “The Work/Priesthood Work” (your church before it was renamed to the FLDS)?

    I have an answer for you Anon. I do not know why the leaders of the flds do or do not do the things that seem to puzzle you. I suggest that you ask leaders of your church questions that are on your mind concerning your religion. If you agree with the religious tenants of your church follow the rules and live your life as a member of your church. If you disagree with the tenants of your church join another congregation or simply discover God on your own.

  201. ZXC,

    Religious leaders can break the law and the law can prosecute them. In fact, it does every single day. If you just goolge “church embezzle” or “church legal scandal” you will find hundreds of hits and ugly stuff about pretty much every denomination. When a church leader uses church funds for himself and someone (even someone who has been thrown out) complains, the law system acts. That is not religious persecution. That’s the law doing what it’s supposed to do; protecting the citizens from criminals. That is exactly how the UEP came to be run by the state; former members sued over financial and personal wrong doing and they won.

  202. I’m thinking that some folks don’t believe your claim to be a Catholic, ZXC.

  203. Okay… I just cannot let this one pass like I have hundreds of times. Spelling reference for today:

    tenant – an occupant (of some sort of property/dwelling)

    tenet – a principle, a belief, a doctrine – usually held in common by members of some organization

    Folks almost consistently use tenant when they really mean tenet

    So… somehow I missed ZXC’s claim to be Catholic. Why is s/he being questioned about Charles Zitting?????

  204. Ha ha ha, thanks E. Texas for clarifying that important point.

  205. “As far as Catholics and their burial requirements I am well aware of the requirements of my religion and exceptions to religious tradition are rather rare and are an issue for the congregation in question or the managers of the cemetary that are appointed by the parish.
    We just have another example of a secular apointee desecrateing church property because he can…..pure and simple.”

    ZXC said this on January 8, 2011 at 1:23 PM

    I find this somewhat dubious, myself, but who knows? I like to accept people as what they claim to be until I see sure reason to disbelieve.

    Catholic congregations rarely vote on matters of church business; that’s more of a Baptist or Presbyterian kind of thing IMHO. Usually, either the priests make those decisions, or there is a board of both clergy and lay members of the parish that has control of some particular area of business, like the physical building for instance. So the whole statement is unconvincing to me. But Catholic covers a lot of territory; there are some really conservative old school parishes out there, and who knows what things are like where ZXC lives?

  206. As I reread it, he does not actually SAY he is a Catholic. Only that he understands his own religion, whatever that may be.

  207. ZXC is unaware of the CURRENT teachings of the Roman Catholic Church regarding burial in Catholic cemeteries. His commentary reflects some of the old teachings of the church regarding burial, so he might have been born into a Catholic family but he has not practiced Catholicism in a very long time.

  208. That’s possible, Anon. Also, there really are throw back congregations; there are even some who still use Latin for some or all masses. I looked up the cemeteries around Denver and all of them are owned directly by the diocese and specifically reference serving Catholics. They don’t specifically say they won’t accept anyone else, but they don’t exactly welcome them like the one I posted from my town.

  209. From ZXC’s postings yesterday, I was under the impression that he/she is FLDS. It is news to me too that ZXC claimed to be Catholic. Maybe Betty can elaborate on this.

    My curiosity about Charles Zitting being omitted in the list of men to whom the keys of priesthood authority were passed has to do with Charles Zitting having been a prophet in Colorado City.

    Granted, he was not prophet long, because he died shortly after taking that position, but he was still a prophet in Colorado City nonetheless.

    I just find it curious that the FLDS leave him out of the list of succession. I can see why they omit J. Leslie Broadbent because of his association with Joseph White Musser.

    But the line of succession was not John Y. Barlow to LeRoy S. Johnson. Charles Zitting was a prophet in Colorado City in between those two.

    And isn’t the current mayor of Hildale, David Zitting, Charles’ son? Don’t you think it might kind of hurt to have your father just written out of the church’s history like that?

    Anyway, you can call me anal, but I think omitting him from the line of succession is strange and I just wonder why the FLDS does it. So, when ZXC was posting here yesterday (and I thought he/she is an FLDS member) then I thought I’d ask why.

  210. Okay… you’re very observant, Betty. I see now where you’re coming from.

    I find rather dubious most of what ZXC says, but I’m always open to new information. However, his (or her) answer regarding Zitting, is so weak, s/he should have “answered nothing.”

    I’m trying to decide whether *I* should go to the trouble of answering the question. (it’s complicated)

  211. We just have another example of a secular apointee desecrateing church property because he can…..pure and simple.”

    ZXC said this on January 8, 2011 at 1:23 PM

    YIKES! “apointee”? “desecrateing”? Whoa Nellie. E. Texas, I can see how this can get your dander up.

    We don’t know for sure if ZXC is Catholic, FLDS, something else or not religious at all.

    We do know, however, that ZXC is an awful speller.

  212. E. Texas please DO answer the question for me. My interest is sincere and I’d really like to know why they omit Charles Zitting.

  213. I am aware that Catholic cemetery practices changed in a major way back in the 1960’s under the Vatican II Council. These changes were dramatic for practicing Catholics but were mainly changes made from inside that resulted with changes outwardly. For instance the prior restriction on Catholics needing to bury their dead only within appointed/consecrated Catholic Cemeteries, was abandoned. I am aware that many Catholics, owing to family burial plots, continue to inter their deceased in existing Catholic cemeteries more by precedent than church decree.

    I posted earlier my views that Warren Jeffs has lead his church members into a self-imposed ‘FLDS Exodus’ to Texas and other Rocky Mountain states. I see this strategem as being a way for the FLDS hierarchy to waylay unsuspecting and lightly populated counties in sparsely populated regions. Exporting their dubious practices and outlaw practices I see as a real area of conern, does anyone else feel these tactics have been employed, for example, in Schleicher County, Texas.

  214. YES CAJim I am in complete agreement with you on this. Not only did they do this in Schleicher County, Texas, but also in Mancos, Colorado; Wetmore, Colorado (and surrounding communities); Pringle, South Dakota … and the list goes on!

  215. Brooke’s profile on twitter:

    I previously reported on polygamy for The Salt Lake Tribune and am still interested in the topic.

  216. I know reports are being filed when they have children on job sites in Texas. Not sure about other places.

  217. A grandson of Louis Jessop Barlow:

    Birth Date: 10/29/86
    Address : 531 N MAIN ST, LaVerkin, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    03:11:49 01/09/11 Coleman, Brad WCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-5-107 THREAT AGAINST LIFE/P BM 5DIS 583.00 [No Payments Made]
    76-6-206(2). CRIM TRESPASS-DWELLIN AM 5DIS 1943.00 [No Payments Made]
    76-9-701 INTOXICATION CM 5DIS 150.00 [No Payments Made]
    76-9-102. DISORDERLY CONDUCT CM 5DIS 280.00 [No Payments Made]
    WARRANT-CASH WARRANT-CASH ONLY BM WCJ7 449.00 [No Payments Made]

  218. Just like Joseph Musser who was posthumously removed, the same was done with Charles Zitting. It has to do with him refusing to be dishonorable in prison and sign a statement that he wouldn’t teach plural marriage. He felt it better to serve his term than lie to get out of prison, but in doing so he “went against the head” and therefore was unworthy of the keys.

    When the FLDS need him back for one of their claims, suddenly he just might be a revered leader again. They did this with Joseph Musser when they opposed the sale of Berry Knoll. It was sacred ground. (And it is interesting that they wanted to segregate all the apostates near their sacred temple site).

  219. Thanks cement. Now I understand. Too bad that a man with scruples (wouldn’t go along with “lying for the Lord”) was written out of the FLDS church’s history.

    And that whole “Joseph Musser said there would be a temple here on the Berry Knoll one day so it is sacred ground that can’t ever be sold” revelation is so absurd, since the FLDS despise Joseph Musser.

  220. There’s a big difference between tradition and actual requirements of the Catholic Church. There never was a requirement to bury the dead in pre-consecrated ground. The ritual of burial could accomplish that consecration anywhere, even on the battle field far from home, or at sea. The restriction is about land that has been consecrated for that purpose in a ritual being used later for other purposes, for instance for the burial of suicides or those who have been excommunicated. The changes of Vatican II were more about belief in the literal resurrection of the dead body, and thus about cremation, which is now allowed.

    And my references proved that even as far back as 1609, during the reformation, a village church could get a dispensation to bury their fellow villagers in the consecrated Catholic cemetery even if they were Protestant.

  221. Brooke never *reported* on polygamy and she knows it.

  222. Betty you and I have similar medieval studies. Maybe some changes during the black plague times?

  223. What’s up with Brooke’s blog, twitter and Facebook, they seem to be frozen date-wise, back in October, 2010? Poor Brooke how is she going to get any of those journalistic awards with the FLDS members moved out-of-state?

  224. Anon – 1:14 PM

    Cement has given you the succinct explanation… and he’s right.

    But perhaps I can elaborate further. (Uh oh… I see a soapbox)

    All through my growing up years, well into adulthood and even for a time after I escaped, portraits of the priesthood key-holders (Presidents) were displayed on walls at home and in our meeting places. Revered and included were:
    Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, John W. Woolley, Lorin C. Woolley, J. Leslie Broadbent, John Y. Barlow, Joseph W. Musser, Charles F. Zitting and finally LeRoy S. Johnson. In addition were displayed the rest of the living men on the Priesthood Council at that time including (ordered by the seniority of their callings): Guy H. Musser, Rulon T. Jeffs, Richard S. Jessop, Carl O.N.Holm and Alma A. Timpson. It was a long line of portraits.

    When President Barlow died in 1949, Joseph W. Musser had seniority and thus became President of Priesthood. Joseph Musser was basically incapacitated during most if not all his nearly five-year tenure, after which Zitting was next in the line of seniority. However, he only lived about four months as President when he died, at which time LeRoy S. Johnson became the presiding key-holder for over thirty years.

    During his last years, Johnson was also very incapacitated, suffering extreme pain from shingles. During those debilitating years (early-to-mid-’80s) big changes over the ‘one-man-rule’ started to take place. Guy Musser, Marion Hammon and Alma Timpson were told (by President Johnson) they had lost their priesthood because they were in opposition to the ‘one-man-rule’ – those three insisting that every member of the Council possessed the same sealing keys by virtue of their callings as High Priest Apostles and also based on things that were said back in Lorin Woolley’s time. Johnson ordered them to stand down. Guy Musser died shortly thereafter. Hammon and Timpson took about one-third of “the group” and formed what is now known as the Centennial Park group (also Second Ward).

    I’m saying all this to show that it was after the “sealing keys” passed to Rulon Jeffs, that the line of priesthood leadership was changed (sanitized). The congregation was told these men – Wilford Woodruff, Leslie Broadbent, Joseph Musser and Charles Zitting – had opposed their then priesthood President about some issue. Cement is correct that in Zitting’s case he opposed the counsel to sign the affidavit required to be released from prison when he was incarcerated (along with several others of his brethren) after the 1944 raid. And yet he was ACKNOWLEDGED to possess those sealing keys during his short tenure as President in 1954. The same is true of each of the others who were posthumously excommunicated. They were acknowledged as legitimate holders of the sealing keys in testimony after testimony heard with my own ears over the pulpit until Jeffs. I believe I know why such a sanitized effort took place then, but I can’t prove it – and I am not one to throw stones.

    There’s a lesson here for a Priesthood President: don’t get incapacitated; your calling and credibility could be crushed after you’re dead. (Which, btw, proves to me the living are not very worried about repercussions, or salvation after they’re dead. Oh! I’m forgetting about revelations to be foisted on the devout.) The bottom line: in spite of your calling, even if you ever held the keys, and even after you’re dead, you are OUT if you ever oppose(d) your priesthood head about anything! So the Jeffs regime is where FLDS modern-day control was launched.

    The other lesson: dead men tell no tales. (But wicked and vilified apostates do.)

    Crap! I may be injured while falling off this soapbox.

  225. There were certainly a lot of changes in society in general during those times, Granny. The practical implications of burying a very large portion of your population over a period of one or two years certainly creates some problems. But I’m not sure what your question is; there was never a requirement to be buried in holy ground as a condition of resurrection and salvation. Burial is not a sacrament, never was; it is a ritual in the book of common prayer.

    There are a lot of things that people think was “always done” when that is not at all the case. For instance, there was no sacrament of matrimony until Henry VIII made all that ruckus about getting a divorce. The Church could not forbid divorce (and meddle in the succession of kings and nobles) if it did not administer marriage, and so a new sacrament was born. Marriage was a social or business affair prior to that which did not require the blessing of the Church. And poor people and serfs generally got married with just the permission of their parents and sometimes of the lord with no ceremony.

  226. Thanks for the explanation.

  227. Thanks, E Texas.

  228. E. Texas thank you for your posting, I never cease to be amazed at the meandering changes within fundamentalism. Having a living prophet and the upending revelations are endless. These fundies live a life as devoted as other sects holy orders and are members from cradle-to-grave, simply amazing!

  229. I know this reference has been posted here before, but I just wanted to point out there’s a well-done click-able flow chart of the Mormon Fundamentalist leadership(s) at the bottom of:

    I don’t agree with all of the information on that website, but overall, it’s not too far off.

  230. Thanks both ET and Betty!

    Some of the stuff that was done here in the new world colonies prior the Revolution was pretty disgusting in itself, IMO. The English didn’t allow certain people including Irish, in many cases but would take on Scots and Germans for their hardworking ways, and skills. But if you didn’t buy into local religions your home and crops could be burnt to get you to move on.

  231. E. Texas, I appreciate your thorough (yet concise) history lesson. I thought that Marion Hammon was on the Priesthood Council before Alma Timpson, but I guess Timpson called Hammon instead of the other way around.

    Since Rulon T. Jeffs’ middle name was “Timpson” do you know how he and Alma were related?

    And you know, actually if Joseph Musser held the keys and then split off from the Priesthood Council after the uproar regarding Rulon Allred, and teamed up with Rulon Allred to form what is today the AUB group, then the FLDS don’t hold the priesthood keys, the Allreds do.

    This dilemma would be my conspiracy theory as to why Musser’s name was removed from the list of succession – because he took the priesthood keys with him! So, rather than having the followers wondering about this same conclusion, they just erase him from the history of their church.

  232. Rulon’s mother was a Timpson.

  233. Spellin curtinly iz an art form I muz edmit. Won day I will askmy preast to hep me wit my spellin an grammer and punteation so dat everyone kin sav their typin fingurs fer the subject at han.
    I muz git my spectacles fixed so dat I can set my clock an not miss mass. Wat bodders me is dat so minny git so upset bout so minny things dat are so mundane an so irelebant.
    I will be sur to hab my kamera wit me at da nex funral an see if da preast gits pizzed.

  234. You do that, zxc.

  235. This website discusses some of the more recent splits from the flds group.

  236. Say where did Warren buy his plot?

    Is it at YF Zippers or in “Dusted his shoes off at Crack town”..?

  237. Some corrections to Anonymous’ post on January 9, 2011 at 7:26 PM:

    I thought that Marion Hammon was on the Priesthood Council before Alma Timpson, but I guess Timpson called Hammon instead of the other way around.

    ** Marion Hammon was ordained in 1941 BEFORE Alma Timpson in 1949.

    Since Rulon T. Jeffs’ middle name was “Timpson” do you know how he and Alma were related?

    ** Alma Timpson was Rulon’s uncle – his mother’s brother.

    And you know, actually if Joseph Musser held the keys and then split off from the Priesthood Council after the uproar regarding Rulon Allred, and teamed up with Rulon Allred to form what is today the AUB group, then the FLDS don’t hold the priesthood keys, the Allreds do.

    ** Joseph Musser never split off from the Council! He died as President of the Council. Rulon C. Allred believed he had been set apart by Musser (during the time Musser was quite ill). When the rest of the council told Allred that’s not how things work – that Priesthood Presidency is passed to the next worthy senior by order of ordination – it was Allred who split off and the AUB was born. Musser was never part of the AUB. (I’m telling this from the FLDS perspective. Of course the Allreds/AUB have their own version of the story.)

    This dilemma would be my conspiracy theory as to why Musser’s name was removed from the list of succession – because he took the priesthood keys with him!

    ** No… having never left the Priesthood Council, the keys passed normally to Charles Zitting as the next in order of ordination. Musser’s and Zitting’s worthiness was never questioned until after Jeffs became the last man.

    So, rather than having the followers wondering about this same conclusion, they just erase him from the history of their church.

    ** Yes, they erased Musser from the history because of his various oppositions during his lifetime to his priesthood head, John Y. Barlow. Nobody argues that he was not properly ordained, just that (in hindsight) he was deemed unworthy (according to Jeffs).

    But Musser was never challenged on that score while alive and was upheld in his office of President until his death, after which the keys passed normally to the next senior, LeRoy Johnson. Had Johnson (as God’s mouthpiece) not judged Hammon unworthy, he (Hammon) would have been the next President.

    Oh boy, I wonder what the FLDS would have been like today under Hammon’s authority.

  238. Postscript to the above. I know my version of the Musser/Allred saga does not agree with what is written on the FLDS 101 blog. I would love to discuss the differences with whomever wrote that.

  239. E. Texas, I have gained my knowledge of the Mormon Fundamentalists primarily from reading a few books that are available on the subject.

    I read an interesting one published by the Allreds. It was about Beth Allred (one of Rulon’s sisters) who was married to Lyman Jessop (brother of Richard, Fredrick et al). Lyman left “The Work” because of the formation of the United Order. He saw problems with this concept early on and realized that it was not a good idea. He left Short Creek and joined the Allred group (his wife’s family’s group).

    Anyway, I guess my point is that it is beneficial to hear your FLDS side of the history and I appreciate your input so very much. From my reading, it was my understanding that conflict was brought upon the Priesthood Council because Joseph Musser declared that Rulon Allred would be his successor and many of the Council members didn’t want that.

    Your saying that it was actually Rulon Allred claiming that he was the next in line is news to me (but I have no personal knowledge). I thought that Musser’s declaration (to the Priesthood Council) that Allred would succeed him (thus overstepping the normal rule of seniority) was what caused the 1st big split in the mid 50’s and brought about the 2 different fundy groups – the FLDS (as they were later known) and the Allred group (AUB).

    If Musser was so incapacitated and heavily influenced by a usurping Rulon Allred, then maybe Musser was coerced into telling the priesthood Council that Allred would succeed him? Or perhaps Allred just made it all up that Musser declared himself the next President of the Priesthood Council.

    Hey, does this sound familiar? Kind of like what happened in 2002 with the FLDS and Warren Jeffs taking over?

  240. Lastly, E. Texas, I also wonder how things might have been different today if Marion Hammon hadn’t been booted by LeRoy Johnson and the Barlows.

    However, I am not so sure the group would have been so much better off. Perhaps Hammon wasn’t the control freak that the Jeffs were/are, but Marion Hammon was a mean man with a very violent temper and he terribly abused his wives and children. He was a child molester and NOT a man of God!

  241. BTW E. Texas, I am not bantering with you. I am just looking for answers and trying to understand it all. That is why I pick your brain; you are such a wealth of information.

  242. I need to clarify something I said above because it is confusing.

    “Or perhaps Allred just made it all up that Musser declared himself the next President of the Priesthood Council.”

    I should have said “Or perhaps Allred just made it all up that Musser declared him (Rulon Allred) the next President of the Priesthood Council.”

  243. Dang ET, I still say you ought to go and takeover out there. The Cougar Ranch will back you 100%

  244. Good morning, Anon.

    This in from Canada this weekend –

  245. Warren still has millions at his disposal… Check out the new construction at the YFZ in the last few days…

  246. With cement fencing, and parking lots.

  247. Thanks, Eldolocal for this information. The only compound like this that was built in Hildale housed ‘Warrant’ and his brides. I think it shows that some of the lighter sex offender sentences has sent a message to the FLDS faithful that Schleicher County is still the promised land that they yearn to locate.

    Does anyone think this looks like a hunting lodge?

  248. To follow up with last night’s Anon:

    If Musser was so incapacitated and heavily influenced by a usurping Rulon Allred, then maybe Musser was coerced into telling the priesthood Council that Allred would succeed him? Or perhaps Allred just made it all up that Musser declared himself the next President of the Priesthood Council.

    Hey, does this sound familiar? Kind of like what happened in 2002 with the FLDS and Warren Jeffs taking over?

    Anonymous said this on January 10, 2011 at 12:51 AM

    ** Truth be told, I don’t think we’ll ever know the absolute truth of Allred’s private activities with Joseph Musser other than the fact that Musser loved Allred dearly. I knew both of them. Musser was a quietly intense man; but not being a man myself, I have no idea how he interacted in private with his brethren. He changed dramatically after his stroke. Allred was extremely bright, likable, and charismatic. As a child, I spent many hours playing with his children at his compound.

    You’re right, about the parallels regarding events of 2002; the difference being that Warren had carte blanche, since his father was “the last man” and there were no other High Priest Apostles to checkmate anything he said or did.


    Lastly, E. Texas, I also wonder how things might have been different today if Marion Hammon hadn’t been booted by LeRoy Johnson and the Barlows.

    However, I am not so sure the group would have been so much better off. Perhaps Hammon wasn’t the control freak that the Jeffs were/are, but Marion Hammon was a mean man with a very violent temper and he terribly abused his wives and children. He was a child molester and NOT a man of God!

    Anonymous said this on January 10, 2011 at 1:04 AM

    ** I can’t argue with you on that score. In my experience, he was alternately scary (especially over the pulpit) and gentle in person, although I didn’t know him well. I spent time with his daughters at his home(s) in SLC but he wasn’t usually around.

    Somehow, though, I don’t think he would have torn all the families apart as Warren did. Also, underage marriages had always been discouraged by the Council, even though there were a few. We’ll never know if he would have changed that the way Warren did.

    Sorry, if ancient history and my long diatribes are boring everyone else silly.

  249. EldoLocal, notification of new YFZ pictures is most appreciated. Thanks!

  250. Boy that place is bigger than my sorority house in college was – and it housed 90 women! Did anyone else notice the guard shack on the corner of the property?

  251. There is one section of the building that is further fenced off from the rest and it has a 2 car garage. This must be the “Master’s quarters”.

  252. The concrete wall around each house INSIDE a fenced village speaks volumes.

  253. After the stories about ‘Warrant’s’ Brides being shuttled around from different safe houses and watched by body guards, I have often wondered how they keep these wives all gathered and quiet about their situation. I am very interested to see how this building is put into use. It may be a pilgrim motel if the Temple is going to be re-dedicated.

  254. Wow a compound inside a compound. One thinks they either dont trust each other, or are fixing a last stand fort.

    Whats the address, may need it for future Warren Who Waldo Warrants.

  255. When you have 80 wives, and you are in prison for life errr time and eternity, I guess perhaps its handy to have a hole in the wall to wharehouse your 80-sumpthin wives.

    Kind of a concrete chastity belt, if you will.

  256. ZXC

    “I have an answer for you Anon. I do not know why the leaders of the flds do or do not do the things that seem to puzzle you. ”

    Well they puzzle people because they are disgusting pedos and keep doing it – I guess society will keep putting them in prison where they so righteously belong.

    Puzzle over.

  257. did they ever get a permit for the sewer plant?

  258. Yep…Sewer its in full operation!! They have applied for another water well for growing population – they have 3 already Here is a current Pic of the sewer…

  259. #

    Yep…Sewer its in full operation!! They have applied for another water well for growing population – they have 3 already Here is a current Pic of the sewer…

    EldoLocal said this on January 10, 2011 at 3:25 PM

    The good thing about this is that the state of Texas TCEQ will come in and periodically inspect the operation of the sewer plant as well as the water wells.

  260. Where do they get electricity?

  261. CAJim “pilgrim motel” is a good guess. That new building sure does look like a 3-story hotel.

  262. It was nice to see recent photos of YFZ. I presume they were taken by Pilot..they look like his great work. It give those [purposely] left behind,a look at where their hard earned [forced tything] money is going…for the comfort of others!!! A place they will never get to see [other than pictures, such as these] or visit, because they were deemed ‘unworthy’ by a man they still revere.
    On a side note. I’m reading a book that touches on Scientology, its cult and followers. Amazing parallels between the two groups.

  263. Anon 6:15pm: Where do they get electricity?

    It’s my understanding, and I know someone will correct me if I am wrong, they run their own power plant on the property.

  264. Coal fired?

  265. I do not think they have a power plant on the premises.

  266. The concrete wall around each house INSIDE a fenced village speaks volumes.


    Some of the houses have walls around them, others don’t.

    And those are WALLS, not fences, why do those people want their dwellings to resemble prisons?

  267. It was nice to see recent photos of YFZ. I presume they were taken by Pilot..they look like his great work. It give those [purposely] left behind,a look at where their hard earned [forced tything] money is going…for the comfort of others!!! A place they will never get to see [other than pictures, such as these] or visit, because they were deemed ‘unworthy’ by a man they still revere.


    I bet it really ticks them off that they can’t keep Pilot from taking pics of the YFZ.

  268. I think that’s the case too Mouse. They probably think they should be able to wall it off high up in the sky.

  269. I think that the new big house is for relocating families from Short Creek.

  270. Musserism = the Taliban.

  271. Well, the aerial picture reminds me of Briham Young’s Lion House in Salt Lake. Brigham’s residence with his many wives, over 30+ women in total, and took it’s name from a reclining lion statue at the entryway to this landmark residence built in 1856. Of course, Briham Young was supposed to have given fiery sermons and was given the monicker ‘Lion for the Lord’.

    ‘Warrant’ on the other hand has morphed this refrain into ‘Lyin’ for the Lord’ so this new YFZ Ranch edifice should have a statute of Jeffs with his mouth open at the entrance. After all the lying that has occurred since the FLDS Church has moved into Schleicher County. I guess no one believes this new construction is the promised hunting lodge?

  272. Brooke has not only quit writing for the Trib, she is posting links on polygamy written by Ben Winslow at Deseret News

    LOL this is strange!

    Good article by Ben though!

  273. Jim

    Warren was planning on hunting errrr poaching some illegal booty!

    Too bad, so sad, he got caught!

  274. Those barracks over by their temple look to me more like their motel units than an H structure does.

  275. So Rico are you suggesting that this new construction might be some kind of academy for teenage girls, sort of a half-way house for girls who don’t ‘Go All the Way’, anymore?

  276. If walls around individual buildings upset everyone on this site perhaps the walls around individual structures in Dallas or LA would give everyone even more mundane things to talk about.
    Then again, very few homes in Dallas or LA. have been raided several times in the last several decades.
    Ask Flora the purpose for the walls, or better yet see if Swinton has recovered enough and just give her a call.

  277. Some persons here but not all wouldn’t particularly notice or even make a mention of the walls within the outter gates and fences that perimeter the YFZ Ranch. Since barriers have drawn your comment ZXC maybe you would care to comment on whom this security is aimed at restricting. The law enforcement’s take during the rescue attempt (your term is ‘raid’) was that the cameras and motion sensors at the YFZ Ranch were aimed inwardly, suggesting that the security is designed to control the residents and NOT THE OUTSIDE!

  278. Now that we have seven (7) convictions for sex crimes that occurred at the YFZ Ranch, insisting on using the terminology ‘raid’ versus rescue leaves your viewpoint exposed to note. To date none of the convicted nor accused have admitted any wrong doing, even after conviction(s) and plea bargaining which accepts a guilty verdict. Who’s rights during the rescue hold a greater importance, namely the victims or the perpetrators, you seem to be pre-occupied with protecting the criminals.

    I recall during the rescue attempt many voices proclaimed that the action was a ‘witch hunt’ and no crime(s) had been committed. Today we now know more about the truth and facts but some choose to ignore the evidence and verdicts.

  279. zxc we already know the females and their children aren’t free to escape if there’s any suggestion they might talk, tell what they know. The underaged mother who was refused hospital care for childbirth to protect the vermin that impregnated her from the law, that situation spoke volumes.

  280. ZXC, walls don’t keep out people with warrants, so if that’s their concern, they just don’t get it.

    Somehow I doubt that the FLDS want to do sun bathing inside their walls, but I think that might be a motivator in LA and Dallas. Nor are the FLDS trying to keep neighboring kids out of their swimming pools for safety and liability reasons. Walls in a busy urban environment with lots of crime makes sense. But a system of completely closed walls with sub-enclosures in the middle of the empty desert with only the 800 or so people you work and deal with all the time, most of whom are your own relatives? Since most of the residents are children, there is a low ratio of cars to people. We’re talking 200 men or less.

    Musserism is an interpretation of FLDS fundamentalism that says that once a woman is married, she does not leave the home, she does not contact her mother, sisters or former girl friends. She basically becomes a cloistered nun with sex privileges. These walls say “Musserism” to me.

    The guard house looks like it comes from a prison and the glass faces both inside the enclosure and out. They want to see everyone who enters or leaves.

  281. Granny, How come the FLDS enablers always vamoose when confronted with facts and reasoning?

    ZXC your perspective and viewpoint speaks volumes on how little the past year of convictions has effected your position. Care to post any comments or does your deeply held convictions prevent you from expressing your unfounded claims? The FLDS Church has spread itself across the Rocky Mountain states trying to hide their guilty practices and felonious activities into newer gulags and victimize new neighbors with their hidden agenda. Their fugitive lifestyle and claims of persecution fall apart when they’re prosectuted and proven to be more liars. Canada is presently examining their mistaken claims and the Royal Court will soon rule against their baseless positions, as well. Stay tuned!

  282. The raid was a raid according to the multiple reports by multiple news agencies at the time of the raid.
    Perhaps the several hundred people that live at YFZ that were not charged with any wrongdoing want one more level of protection from another raid or they just might want to block the wind that howls thru the desert.
    Those men that were convicted for their religious beliefs are not at YFZ so the non-threat from them is no longer an issue.
    The only threat that remains at YFZ seems to be from persons that continue to threaten a community that wants to live in peace.
    The people of YFZ did not desecrate anyones church. The people of YFZ did not fabricate stories about crematoriums. The people of YFZ did not steal anyones children and subject them to conditions that violated their religious beliefs. The people of
    YFZ have every right to live in an environment free from ridicule and hearsay that does more to show the bias of the local bigots thru their words and actions.
    If we are to believe the authorities then those that violated the law are either locked away or soon will be. If we are to again be entertained by several years of speculation and wild accusations against a community that simply wants to live in peace .
    One thing is certain. It is perfectly legal for a group of people to build a wall around their home and the people of Dallas need not explain themselves any more than the people of YFZ. Bbesides, the people of Dallas did not have their religion “targeted” so they just might like cinderblock barriers for their curb appeal. But who knows…….and who cares.

  283. Going back to the cemetery in Colorado City, I don’t understand why there is the “baby graveyard” and who is buried there? I’m talking about the one by the junkyard. If the FLDS are so family oriented -who ends up in that baby ceremetery? When was the last burial there?

  284. We don’t know Denise, why don’t you do some research and get back to us, since you seem to be interested.

  285. The YFZ compound looks like a prison camp to me. Thanks to the Pilot for providing the photos.

  286. “The only threat that remains at YFZ seems to be from persons that continue to threaten a community that wants to live in peace.”

    Who is “threatening” them and how are they doing that ? I don’t see anyone threatening them. Ridiculous.

  287. ZXC

    “YFZ have every right to live in an environment free from ridicule”

    Which is why they wear “Lil house on the Prairie” getups at Walmart?

    Then to top it off, they keep getting busted for sex crimes.

    I cant think of a cult that deserves more ridicule. Perhaps they should build an underground shelter and stay there!

    They would be closer to home, hell yeah!

  288. You’re entitled to your opinion, ZXC. What surprises me is that you don’t think I’m entitled to mine.

  289. Who cares ZXC? Obviously you’re sounding off as though you care and choose to defend the crimes, criminals and community that went on national television and held a press conference at the YFZ Ranch to testify that no children, sexual assaults or minor pregnancies had occurred.

    Doesn’t exactly jive with your attempt to now ‘whitewash’ the scene of the crime. As to the Temple being desecrated it warehoused files and evidence used to convict the devout criminals. Remember, not one witness has come forward from the YFZ Ranch and the ‘Answer Them Nothing’ edict has been held by all raunchy residents. Warren Jeffs trial will soon introduce new evidence as to this YFZ Ranch populations role in granting him sanctuary when he was on the FBI 10 Most Wanted list. You seem to have forgotten that eight (8) FLDS men were indicted in Arizona, back in 2005 and this now Texas crime spree shows a continuation of felony convictions and behaviors. This community may now proclaim their rights and wish to leave in peace but they have failed, misrably, to ‘wash their dirty hands’ of these condoned crimes. The YFZ Ranch is now a known location for youth sex abuses and an array of other felonies.

    ZXC you can’t ignore the Supreme Court case of Reynolds vs. US and proclaim any religious practices that break the Law, that precedent strikes down your baseless claim of religious right.

    Chinese philsopher Confucius said that,”One can not build a wall high enough to hold back the wind”. I think the howling that the YFZ Ranch faction is hearing will continue to blow.

  290. Is living free from ridicule in the Constitution? I just read it recently and I don’t remember that one.

    Waiting until the girls are legal would work a lot better than a wall, ZXC.

  291. Betty, you have to read the ‘Celestial Law’ which supercedes the US Constitution when your living with the Warrenites. We are dealing with a Mormon Theocracy not an American Democracy within the gulags.

  292. Well, I would love to research that but I live in Texas. The pictures I saw of that cemetery are horrendous. I was just asking in case anybody knew about it.

  293. ZXC

    “The people of YFZ did not desecrate anyones church.”


    Well, its been proven in a court of law in Texas, for each and every case that has come up, that those pedo FLDS men desecrated the bodies of children.

    Now its Warrens turn to be proven a molester. So dont hold your breath, ZXC, you are going to find out how bad your Profffut stinks!

  294. As usual it seems that people chose to continue with speculation and feed the fantasy that was started by Flora and her ilk. So nopw you turn your attention to the baby graveyard in Colorado city.
    I suggest that you look at old Deseret news articles and follow Floras rants. I can sum up the issue by saying that all the accusations concerning the baby graveyard have been shown to be wild accusations and not a shread of anything has come of them. So waste your time if you please. The FBI listened to the drivel of Flora and decided to let her rant on so far be it from me to second guess anyone that choses to waste their time.

    Old accusations are humerous……….so did anyone find Sarah yet.
    Why not look for a few 27 year old teenagers or perhaps join Malonis in her persecution of a pregnant virgin.

  295. ZXC

    “Old accusations are humerous……….so did anyone find Sarah yet.?


    Ummm they found 7 molesters of children guilty so far, with more coming to trial including headmaster molester himself, Warren Jeffs.

    Maybe in your world child molestation is OK, but you will find along with the others who have gone to trial that its not an accepted practice in Texas.

    So I wouldnt move there if I had those tendencies.

  296. ZXC you still didn’t answer the question. There is obviously a cemetery next to a junkyard (pictures show graves) so who is buried there and why?

  297. Geeeez……ZXC not any mention on the crime spree, full complicity and nationally teleivised lies and the proof that the YFZ Ranch was a haven for a Federal fugitive and sex crimes committed against children but lest talk about crematoriums, walls, baby graves and ‘hoax’ calls. Does any of these items change any convictions or plea bargains? Do you think the verdicts and rulings don’t affirm the greater truth of Guilt and not innocence. Why don’t you proclaim the 12 year old was married only by proxy or are you affraid that the evidence may prove otherwise. Seven (7) convictions speak far louder than your failed reasonings and rationalizations.

  298. Keep it up ZXC, you guys sound like Jared Loughner.

    Grammar school brainwashes ya!

  299. “Flora’s Rants”

    1. Warned Texas LE what the FLDS were up to..


    But those flds children belong to der profut and he can do with them what he damn well pleases, is that it ZXC?

  300. I don’t know who Flora is but whats up with that wierd baby graveyard. It’s downright spooky.

  301. #

    Keep it up ZXC, you guys sound like Jared Loughner.

    Grammar school brainwashes ya!

    Stamp said this on January 11, 2011 at 3:23 PM

    True stamp, although ZXC post sounds alot like the writings of Brian David Mitchell, same delusion ramblings, guess ole ZXC thinks he’s the next “one mighty and strong, the Davidic king and profit.” Now that that David Koresh is dead, Mitchell is convicted and Warren Jeffs the felonious profit is next in line to ride that white bus to Huntsville, Texas, lordy lordy ole Warren’s going to sing those Texas prison blues!

  302. Flora escaped some years ago and has blown the whistle on the Crack pedo’s.

    She has also written a book. Its worth noting, that the continued excuses put forth by various and sundry members is actually more damning and alarming than what Flora says.

    BTW, ZXC doesnt know all the secrets of the FLDS or the graveyard, its why they build brick fences inside of compounds, that is symbolic of the secrets they keep from even themselves.

    They are told to just follow like good little sheeple, keep sweet and STFU.

  303. zxc is a laugh, up is down, black is white, good is bad et cetera ad nauseum. There is no such religion it wrote of and it knows we know the truth. A criminal sex cult is another thing.

  304. A Texan

    Dont forget fellow child molester plygger Tony Alamo, he earned himself a 175 year sentence.

    I dont know what makes the difference between these guys and Loughner – surely we will get a report in the days to come.

  305. Oh, bye the bye, ZXC there are a few more missing pieces to the claim on a church, religious sect tax status and resident bishop’s claims for Schleicher County recognized status. The tax exemptions have been denied, the church has no formal civil status and the bishop’s income and residence have not been exempted. So technically and legally the Yearning For Zion Ranch has no civic or lawful status. Not sure about the legal wranglings over the Texas trust formation, but given the current legal battles being contested back in Utah and Canada, this ownership is probably in limbo/delayed.

  306. ZXC is really fixated on desecration of church property; keeps bringing that up. I wonder if there is some clue there?

  307. Thanks for the info, Stamp. I only asked ZXC because that person was proclaiming to be an expert on cemeteries. I saw these pictures of a baby graveyard next to a junkyard over there in Colorado City and it struck me odd nobody ever thought it was stange that babies were being thrown away there.

  308. ZXC never claimed he was “an expert” on cemeteries and rightfully so, because he sure is no “expert.” He did make claims regarding Catholic burial practices which were shown to be false – example : unbaptized babies are not buried in Catholic cemeteries. The truth : they certainly are.

  309. What desecration of church property ? They entered the church property to check on a complaint that was made to the authorities, in much the same way that they would check on complaints against any other religious organization where abuse was alleged to occur. Abuse was identified as a result of the investigation.
    Case closed.
    Don’t want to be the subject of an investigation ?
    Don’t do anything wrong.

  310. Betty, I don’t have a current status on the Texas Trust formation but it was being aligned to be held initially by a few FLDS Elders and not the Church directly, not unlike the UEP Trust. The Temple ever receiving a tax exempt status is tied to a public access issue and the bishop had to declare his lawful income and demonstrate that 51% came from his ministerial salary (I doubt either will ever be allowed/agrreed to by the ‘One Man Rule’ committee).

  311. Denise,

    I speak for myself but I think many here agree with me on this topic. We don’t really know anything about the baby cemetery, but we also do not believe that it has been well investigated. It is very difficult to get a permit to dig up a grave, as it should be. There are also rather loose laws in some Western states about burial on private property. So in my mind, the fact that no action has been taken is not an indication that there is nothing wrong. On the other hand, the fact that there are accusations is also, by itself, no proof. I think it’s odd to have small grave sites with little or no markings right next to a junkyard, myself, but do not have any insight to offer you. Unless there is some new informaiont, I’m not personally interested in going into it further than that.

  312. So I guess that everyone here is now an expert on catholic burial tradition and requirements even though persons here do not claim to be Catholic. It sure sounds to me like your knowledge of church burial practices entails rumor and very little first hand knowledge.
    Oh well………so it seems that gossip and inuendo are the basis for a lot of the accusations here.
    Twelve men were the subject of the charges and likely convictions yet still you harass a church and make false claims and drag up disproven allegations……. sound to me like a bunch of old biddies at a quilting bee……continue if you lease your rants only aid the defense and appeal and show a bias against innocent people.
    members of the FLDS have posted here and you scoff at their posts. You seem to be experts on subjects because you declare yourselves experts and now we have someone that is a catholic burial expert.

    Many here seem to avoid the issues and simply go about their accusations as a matter of habit. Oh well have a fun day at the quilting bee.

  313. ZXC

    Reread the testimonies and try again.

  314. ZXC,
    you were given facts a few days ago, from personal experience of people who were raised Catholic (S and myself) about family burials and practices at such cemeteries, from information from an official Church website on Christian burial, from information on websites from a Catholic cemetery. None of that is gossip or innuendo. You offered nothing in rebuttal except your own opinion and the insistence that you are currently a practicing Catholic.

    There have been 7 convictions so far… have you not been paying attention? Don’t get the news? You call them “likely”, but we call them done. And given the proof submitted at these trials, including DNA of children born of the men accused, it’s not a matter of innuendo. It’s as close to established fact as you can get.

    So, make whatever insults of us you like, we’ve heard them before and it doesn’t phase us.

  315. ZXC

    Bet Warren wishes he could be at a quilting bee right now, flirting with the ladies instead of awaiting trial and negotiating with attorneys and Judge Walther.

    But he’s a big boy and knows whats right, is that correct? Is that how you have him figured?

  316. Stamp:Bet Warren wishes he could be at a quilting bee right now, flirting with the ladies…

    Especially the 12-16yr old set…. never know when he may get another revelation [cough cough] that he needs to add to his concubuine…

  317. zxc just cannot allow itself to discuss fact and reality, that’s such a hoot. It cannot help itself out of its ignorance.

  318. Thanks Betty for the information. I just can’t understand why people would beat catholic burial rituals to death when there are more sinister subjects to open for discussion. Throw away and abused (maybe even murdered) kids are more important than endless discussion on meaningless subjects in my humble opinion. Blogs like this can serve a very important purpose if people want to speak up on serious issues.

  319. Speaking of hoot


    Holy Order Of Texas

    Got dropped by Warren when he found out it was . . .

    wait for it . . . .

    A HOOT!

    But then, what do those pesky prophets know? Those pesky prophecies have landed them in hot water time after time.

    They should rename the cult the “Top Ramen is Ready Church”

  320. Cuz their noodles is…

    wait for it….


  321. ZXC,
    I was born, baptized, and confirmed as a Roman Catholic, attended CCD till age 18, and attended Catholic Church weekly till age 32. My father was a Jesuit trained Latin scholar, and I married a Jesuit school trained man (high school, college, and graduate school) who STILL practices Catholicism. My sister and brother are still practicing Catholics, as are all my cousins. We speak from decades of experience of practicing Catholicism and attending Catholic burials.
    There ARE non Catholics and ex Catholics buried in Catholic cemeteries. They are members of my family.
    There ARE non baptized babies buried in Catholic cemeteries – some anti abortion advocates have buried fetal remains in Catholic cemeteries in our area with public ceremonies officiated by priests.
    The ONLY instance of refusal for permission for burial in Catholic cemeteries which we are familiar with was refusal to bury someone who committed suicide in a Catholic cemetery circa 1977. Since approximately 1990, the Church has reversed its position on burial of patients who commit suicide on consecrated ground.

  322. and which allegations are untrue, ZXC ?
    There is DNA evidence that underage girls were impregnated, and there is documented evidence in the form of “marriage records” that underage marriages did take place.
    Therefore, the allegations of underage marriage and pregnancy have been proven

  323. Heah, ZXC sorry I missed your send-off. You should post your dribble on ‘The Truth Will Unveil’ and review all the lies stated on You Tube when the YFZ Raunch residents held their ‘Lie-in’. The hunting lodge was a better plan than Jeffs ‘Fundyville Farm’. Uncle Willie’s statement to the press about Child Bride marriages never happened and they won’t happen in the future, as long as the Church’s suggestions are observed, seems like a fairly lame promise but consider the authentic double-talk.

  324. At what ages are FLDS children expected, required, to lie?

  325. Good observation, Nancy. I’m just trying to get ZXC to confront reality, although I realize that may be a lost cause.

  326. When they can talk.

  327. Warren, is that you ?

  328. surely warren doesn’t have computer access in jail.

  329. I don’t think he has computer access in Texas. In the Arizona jail who knows what he had – probably everything his “unholiness” wanted.

  330. Yes I have seen the information on catholic burial on this site. Now for the facts. Unbaptised babies are not buried on my parish grounds. Persons that are not affiliated with the catholic church or a church member are not buried at our parish cemetary. So correct all the spelling that suits you and print all the information from whatever sources that you deem appropriate but the fact remains……. so rant on.

  331. ZXC,
    If that is true, your parish is highly unusual and I would suggest that you make a complaint to the Archdiocese and the Vatican. The practice of your parish is NOT representative of Catholic practice in the general population of the US, and it is NOT representative of Catholic teaching on burial. I would like to know which parish cemetery this is – just out of curiosity.

  332. The Cathecism of the Catholic Church clearly states that unbaptized babies and fetuses may be buried in Catholic cemeteries.

  333. ZXC,

    Just because your parish does it that way does not mean that is the only right way to do it for the whole world. It does not mean that your parish is right and the Cathedral of the Sacred Heart in Richmondm VA is wrong. It does not mean your parish is right and the Catholic Encyclopedia is wrong. It just means they have different policies. Get a grip, dude! Do you really think that we would lie about our own cemeteries, just to be ornery? Do you think the webpage for a Catholic cemetery would lie just to mess with you? My, you really are special.

  334. Yeah, S, I’m curious too. Does this parish know about Vatican II? Heck, do they know about the changes of the 16th century???

  335. Catholic Canon Law and the Catholic Cathecism cited in the link in my post above both dictate that unbaptized babies, stillborn children, and aborted fetuses are to receive Catholic funerals and burial in Catholic cemeteries. Despite the fact that Canon Law dictates that burial and funeral masses for such unfortunate children are to be celebrated, ZXC tells us that Catholic funerals and burial are not permitted for these children in his particular church.

    I don’t believe ZXC is a practicing Catholic, as his statements do not reflect knowledge of Canon Law or the Cathecism and I would like to know what diocesan graveyard this is so I can check it out for myself.

  336. zxc likely found a tatty old book in what passes for a flds library, where that carp came from.

  337. ZXC,
    I am going to make an intervention for you. Provide me with the name and phone number of your diocesan graveyard which refuses Catholic burial and funerals for stillborn, aborted, and unbaptized babies and I will have a high ranking official of the Catholic Church in NYC make some phone calls to rectify this situation for you.

  338. Have you ever thought about what Guy Jessop Jr, Seth Holm, John Jessop, Donavon Stubbs and Willie Jessop must think about the fact that they aren’t worthy to live in Zion.

    I’m not sure about the rest of them, but Willie travels to Texas all the time and just isn’t allowed to stay at the ranch. He has to stay in San Angelo. Also, he’s only got 2 wives, so if he were to die, he couldn’t even have his own planet. Man life just stinks in his world.

  339. *sigh* I guess the “three wives” myth will never die.

  340. I think “S” is seeing your bet and calling you, ZXC.

  341. Some men really need male authority figure approval and feel that they have to jump through hoops to get it. Instead of realizing that the upper class twits are using them, they fantasize about how if they just work a little bit harder, they’ll be good enough and then they will be upper class twits, too. It’s a sad but common tale.

  342. probably not ET, it’s somewhere in the laws of Warren, but I can’t pinpoint it right now, I need my beauty sleep.

  343. ZXC: If walls around individual buildings upset everyone on this site perhaps the walls around individual structures in Dallas or LA would give everyone even more mundane things to talk about.


    City homes have walls and fences for privacy purposes. Why does a house inside a guarded compound that is out in the middle of nowhere need a concrete wall around it . . . certainly not to keep people out – must be to keep people in.

  344. ZXC: Those men that were convicted for their religious beliefs are not at YFZ so the non-threat from them is no longer an issue.


    Grown men having sex with children is not a “religion.”

  345. “YFZ have every right to live in an environment free from ridicule”


    They have fashioned an “environment” based on which man’s penis gets the most vaginas, they deserve to be ridiculed.

    However, it’s not very funny at all for the young girls whose own fathers swap them like trading cards.

  346. Some men’s. Others get none at all.

  347. very true betty.

  348. Warren was much more prolific before he became profit. He had 27 kids with his first 4 wives and only 23 with the other 75 or so wives.

  349. Well it’s fairly disappointing that after the FLDS Church has forced the question of the constitutionality of anti-polygamy law in Canada both bishops leading these communities have opted out of witnessing. Bishop Blackmore is boycotting the proceedings because he wanted the British Columbia government to provide for his community legal expenses. Now Bishop Jim Oler after giving a sworn statement has, also, opted out of participation in the proceedings and gives no explanation. There were issues on granting immunity and even anonymity to all witnesses, in order to receive their testimonies but this was not given as a reason for Bishop Olers decision.
    Portions of Bishop Olers statement are,” If the criminal prohibition against polygamy was removed, I know that we would all be more comfortable in seeking the help of outside agencies”.
    Additionally, he stated, “I also know that the standard of living for everyone in our community would be better if we were not diverting so many of our resources to pay lawyers and defend our rights. I personally see this as a very lifechanging and wonderful day to be left alone to live our religion and let others live theirs”.
    It is a fact that both Canada and America have never allowed bigamy/polygny to exist lawfully. The baseless claim that polygamy is contained within the tenet of ‘Religious Freedom’ simply doesn’t reflect the legal definition within either countries meanings of this constitutionally granted right. The continued defiance of the existing legal system of both countries, no doubt have been very costly beyond just financial consequences. Monogamy is the sole form of marital rights recognized by either country.
    Bishops Oler and Blackmores decisions to opt out of the legal process points up, once again, how their side seeks only terms and conditions that advantage themselves and predetermines their desired outcome.

  350. Well it’s fairly disappointing that after the FLDS Church has forced the question of the constitutionality of anti-polygamy law in Canada both bishops leading these communities have opted out of witnessing.
    I have to disagree. What appeared to force the question was a prosecutor pressing charges that was ultimately thrown out.

  351. I am sure that the standard of living for drug dealers would be better if they did not have to hide their activities and pay legal bills when they are caught. Same old story, committing illegal acts means paying the consequences for doing so. I have no sympathy for the “poor, put upon” flds leaders and members.

  352. from canada

  353. Well yes and no chemist. If owning a couple of marijuana joints, for example, meant 5 years of prison I could see why one would be reluctant to tell the police that someone broke into their house and took all their belongings.

  354. Well alim, losing their belongings because they are afraid of calling the police is the consequence of their illegal activity. You proved my point, thanks.

  355. ZXC a Catholic? Yeah, and the Yearning For Zippers Ranch is a hunting lodge.

    But at least he keeps that “Lyin fer the Lord” mantra going.

    Got any fresh ones, ZXC?

    C’mon now, we’ll hold them up to the light and give them the test.

    Maybe one more “Warren is a falsly accused man, and all the convicted FLDS are actually innocent, its a Government plot to commit Genocide”…?

  356. Why is it that Willie the Thug is not at YFZ ? Is he not worthy of being among “the elect”

  357. Alinusara get a clue, Bishop Blackmore has been openly agitating for a challenge to Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms for over a decade. Now that he has the judicial proceeding he wants the BC Government to pick up his costs which resulted in his boycott. Winston knows that there is a ‘limitation’ clause on any religious freedom that could well be used to deny his more liberal interpretation, if any negative impact or greater consequences would result. Both bishops opting to now sideline their involvement is more likely owing to minimize a failed verdict than their faith in any vindication. If they now choose to avoid the legal ramifications they could always act to conform to the existing statutes that causes their prosecutions in the first place. Don’t blame the legal system for their unfounded claims of civil rights, which never existed within the law, have been denied to them. Total Bunk!

  358. I guess that Warren Jeffs just uses Willie for thuggery, but then doesn’t reward him by giving him a place in Zion. Willie must be really angry.

  359. Willie lost some weight so he would fit in the front gate, ooops, he still hasnt gotten Warrens say-so go-ahead.

    And didnt they swap spokesmen, giving that short crazy old whackjob whazzizname a shot at trying to rationalize rape from the gate?

    Speaks volumes, as will Warrens trial coming up soon. Say, did he prophezise who his attorney was gonna be, or was he wrong there too?

  360. Heah, Chemist and Stamp it would appear today is Alinusaras shift, I sure hope ZXC has been sidelined. Why don’t they post this tripe on Bill MadWacky or SL Tribune Polygamy Page?

  361. Yeah, why are they so interested in this blog ? Medvecky must not be keeping them very entertained. He should do a better job.

  362. Appears Maddog lost his groupies…. And the Trib lost Brooke.

    Now there will be a fresh perspective, people will see Warren Jeffs and think Tony Alamo!

    175 years, if he lasts that long!

  363. Yeah, where is the new spokesperson, Wild Bill Shapley?

  364. Happy New Year Al

  365. The new spokesman is Bill Shapley. His claim to fame was giving his 14 year old daughter to her 30 something cousin to be raped.

  366. Where would someone have to plant a camera in order to see over the YFZ Ranch fence ? Any ideas ?

  367. Yeah, where is Wild Bill lately? I thought for a while he was replacing Willie

  368. Wild Bill actually seems to have a place in Zion unlike his Willie who has to stay on Angelo when he’s in Texas.

  369. I guess whoever owns the property across from the gate could put up some sort of camera.

    Interesting thought. Wonder if the land is for sale.

  370. Wonder how many wives Guy Jessop Jr and his brother John have? They obviously aren’t Zion material either.

  371. AP newservice is reporting that Allen Glade Steed’s attempt to claim Warren Jeff’s overturned conviction and legal delays have unfairly impacted his chances for a fair trial. Judge Beacham has ruled that Mr. Steed has failed to prove his objection and will stand trial for his accused rape of Elissa Wall, his espoused ‘Celestial’ wife.

  372. Oh Cwap Steed still going to trial?

    LOL They are crazier than a three ring trial circus!

  373. Here’s more on Steeds failed attempts to get out of going to trial:

    From article: “But 5th District Judge G. Rand Beacham sided with the prosecution, ruling that the delay was necessary to protect victim Elissa Wall’s anonymity before Jeffs’ trial.”

  374. anyone caught at end game with less than three wives is going to hell in a hand basket


  375. Poor Allen, can’t get out of his trial for raping Elissa. Oh well, when you follow the profit you’ve got to pay up.

  376. I think they are going to hell in a handbasket faster with the more wives they got!

    Look at Warren, he’s got 80 and will never be able to touch any of them ever again!

  377. Carolyn Jessop testifies in Vancouver

  378. Life-skills classes offered to so-called ‘Lost Boys’

    By lindsay whitehurst

    The Salt Lake Tribune
    First published Jan 11 2011 06:45PM
    Updated Jan 11, 2011 06:45PM

    A program created to help families leaving polygamy learn life skills will expand to offer classes to young people who have left the twin towns of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah.

    Known colloquially as the “Lost Boys,” young men and women who grew up the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and now live in the St. George area may not be prepared for life on their own, said Jeanne Adams, facilitator for the Jump Start Life Skills program.

    The classes will cover dating, relationships, job skills and budgeting money, among other issues, and also include a discussion and a meal, Adams said. The last such education program attracted about 30 people before it ended about three years ago, she said. It is also open to young people from other polygamous communities.

    The Jump Start program was started by the St. George-based HOPE Organization last year with a $40,000 grant from the National Presbyterian Church based in Louisville, Ky. For the past year, it has been offering classes in Hildale for families who are in the process of leaving polygamy.

    Read more –

  379. ZXC, since you’ve convinced yourself that no one here knows anything about the FLDS Church, why don’t you click ‘Whatloveisthis’ on this blogs right column, under Blogroll and look up ex-FLDS member Bill Cooks interview about his upbringing (Program 3.41, shown in October, 2011) and hear it first-hand for youself.

  380. Oooopsie…..that would be (Program 3.41, shown on 14 October, 2010) and not ‘2011’.

  381. This “Jump Start” program of the HOPE Organization sounds terrific. I hope that many young people are able to avail themselves of this program.

  382. CAJim,
    Another excellent episode of What Love Is This is the following episode where Mary Mackert is interviewed by Doris Hanson

  383. Yes, S….I have seen it and many of her past quests have affidavits with the Canadian court on this polygamy question…..but we aren’t informed according to ZXC. Carolyn Jessop gave great testimony today, we keep her in our prayers and trust she receives a full measure of Justice and Peace soon. If you get my drift.

  384. I’m so glad that the Hope Organization is reaching out to the Lost Boys. They need to know that someone cares what happens to them.

  385. It’s got to be a slap in the face to the rank and file FLDS in the Crick that they aren’t asked to go live at the YFZ.

  386. and it has to be a slap in the face to Willie to be doomed because Warren hasn’t seen fit to give him wife # 3

  387. I want one of those H houses. That thing looks sweet. Look at it compared to the size of the cars next to it.

    Can a desecrated temple be rededicated, or would they have to build a new one?

    Does Centennial Park still acknowledge Wilford Woodruff, Leslie Broadbent, Joseph Musser, etc. since they broke away before they were removed? Does the AUB?

    For those wondering what the FLDS would have been like under Marion Hammon, look no further than the CPark group. Say what you want about him, he clearly would have made a better leader then the Jeffs. Ben Bistline claims in his book that the aforementioned prophets were removed due to their having given sermons against 1 man rule. Hammon on the other hand, was opposed to 1 man rule.

  388. It must be embarrassing for the FLDS, that others care more for their boys than they do.

  389. Is there anyone out there in the blogosphere who can tell me whether or not David Lawrence Stubbs and Lawrence Ritchie Stubbs are brothers, either full or half. I know that most of David’s kids are out, what about Lawrence’s kids? Are most out or in?

  390. Anon and off said: It must be embarrassing for the FLDS, that others care more for their boys than they do

    I didn’t think that word or feeling existed in their culture.

  391. I’d like one of the H houses too Otter Valley, but maybe not so big. It’s gonna take all 79 of Warren’s wives working full time to keep it clean.

  392. Looks like the FLDS’ days of terrorizing people at funerals has come to an end today. The Governor of Arizona Jan Brewer signed emergency legislation that bars protests within 300 feet of a funeral and within an hour from its beginning or end.

  393. Look what I just found –

  394. The YFZ Temple, according to Warren’s record, was a test effort to see if the construction could be performed according to instructions, timing and ordinance(s). The ultimate Temple will be in Independence, MO in Jackson County in accordance with existing revelations in the 1800s.

  395. Forget about Armageddon and the Mount of Olives, Jesus is coming to Independence, Missouri. Just another contradiction between the Bible and FLDS theology.

  396. anon anon you know that US and State laws don’t apply to FLDS.

    So far.

  397. It’s got to be a slap in the face to the rank and file FLDS in the Crick that they aren’t asked to go live at the YFZ.


    Well, if you have two dogs and you give only one of them treats and affection, does the other one stop trying to get attention? No – he tries that much harder to please you.

    This scenario fits in nicely with the idea that every problem is the fault of the rank and file because they don’t have enough faith.

  398. Looks like the FLDS’ days of terrorizing people at funerals has come to an end today. The Governor of Arizona Jan Brewer signed emergency legislation that bars protests within 300 feet of a funeral and within an hour from its beginning or end.


    That is to prevent those despicable Westboro Baptist pigs from picketing the funeral of the little girl who was killed in the recent rampage.

  399. Anon anon looks like we have some more reading ahead. Say does ZXC consider reading first-hand records, written by Prophet Jeffs, to be a credible source to be quoting?

    AMEN, Sister GrannyToad.

  400. Look what I just found –

    Anon anon said this on January 12, 2011 at 10:40 PM

    Those records have been out there since last July. Has something new been added?

  401. Did anyone see this ?
    East Texas, could you comment if this is a common practice to the best of your knowledge?


  403. Here’s an article on YFZ, interesting, includes map of YFZ identifying buildings as of 2009, so new buildings not listed, the continued building of YFZ shows FLDS plan long time stay IMO.

  404. Great find A Texan.

  405. Very interesting Texan, Thanks. Don’t know that I buy his storyline that a disgruntled ex-FLDS member, likely Flora Jessop, was responsible for the tip call that triggered the YFZ Rescue attempt. As I have commented before, the chances of the Texas Supreme Court ordering the return of the YFZ children, based upon the series of convictions is highly unlikely. In fact the courts order should be criticized in the light of all of these verdicts and convictions.

  406. I agree CaJim. The Supreme Court now has egg on their face.

    Did ya see the picture of the “grieving” women with lying Sally and Unibrow front and center.

    I also think he got the white buildings wrong. One is the Temple Annex and the other is the printing building. Neither is a meeting house.

  407. Mr. Marcus needs also to investigate a little deeper on where the Prophet Warren Jeffs gets his directions and playbook because crediting his actionsw as being his own overlooks the history that traces back to early Mormon teachings which he still worships and is observing!

  408. A reticent weigh-in on “water torture”…

    I had never heard of the vile (and violent) practice until I read of it in Carolyn’s first book. That she says it was/is common, shocks and amazes me! It’s still tough for me to accept.

    In all my FLDS years, it was never practiced within my (admittedly tight) circles in SLC. Spanking – only below the belt – was the only discipline I ever saw (both in my father’s and my husband’s families) always, and then only seldom, on children old enough to understand right from wrong. Wives and children (babies!??) were NEVER beaten. There were rare exceptions, like a slapped face or flipped lip/top of a head. A swat on the bottom, withholding privileges and isolation (timeouts) were most common. Babies were NEVER punished F-G-S!

    That said, I would certainly never try to refute anyone else’s stated FLDS experience – I wasn’t there. I do know that methods of discipline were controlled by individual heads of families. Merril’s, and apparently others – especially in the Creek – methods of child discipline sound extremely radical (monstrous!) compared to my personal knowledge and experience. It’s literally jaw-dropping shocking to me!

    So… I do wonder… was MY experience the exception?????
    I may never know.

  409. Well that draws a picture, FLDS are individuals like everyone else, and even the worst atrocities (child marriage) arent practiced enterprise-wide.

    That said, in the secrecy of their own homes, locked out of normal society, many things happen that are ignored if even found out about.

    Its been said a call to police for abuse was akin to calling the Bishop of shortcreek – with the result being told to STFU and keep sweet about it.

  410. I can say that in my WIDE circle of FLDS Friends and family, I never, ever saw anything like Caroline describes happen ever..I lived in the cult for 26 yrs, and was horrified to see that put out as a broad brush against the FLDS…Caroline just diminished her effectiveness as a spokeswoman for the “real” issues in the FLDS, shes about as credible now as Flora, what a damned shame, that people that could do so much good getting the truth out, have to resort to such outright drivel and libel in their accounts. Damn!! It makes me want to spit nails…There’s enough truth about things we don’t have to resort to childhood killings, torture etc…Why Caroline?? Why?

  411. E. Texas, Your sentiments echo mine, I grew up in a family where everything wasn’t perfect, sure, but being out for a good many years now, Ive come to the realization that it isn’t any better in many respects out here than it was in there, my family and Father did an admirable job of trying to keep everyone even keeled, happy and provided for…It rips my heart out to see everyone so vilified for the actions of a few….My Father was and still is the dearest man I have ever known. I wish I could speak to him 😦

  412. You have to remember that Carolyn lived with Babs the Barbarian. Maybe what happened in the Merril Jessop household was the exception.

    ExFLDS, can you tell me the relationship between David and Lawrence Stubbs?

  413. Thanks, Ex-FLDS. Just curious; was your “wide” experience in the Creek — or elsewhere?

  414. Your experience was in SLC wasn’t it ETexas? Did you ever live in or visit the Crick when you were FLDS?

  415. I visit the Creek, both now and before I left; I’ve never lived there.

  416. I think there are some really.extreme and others who are more laid back. Maybe the laid-back are the norm, I don’t know, but Carolyn wouldn’t say it happened if it didn’t.

  417. I think you go too far, ExFLDS, in calling it libel. It may very well have been her experience. It may be wrong to paint it as wide spread when she doesn’t know that, but it could have been completely truthful portrayal of Merrill. When I read it, my first thought was that it wouldn’t work. Babies just don’t have that much understanding of causal relationships and would not stop crying in order to avoid abuse. They would cry more.

  418. EX FLDS

    Your dad “kept you on an even keel” but you cant talk to him?

    Sounds dysfunctional to me, the astute reader will understand.

    While the crimes may have been worse in Carolyns home, she was telling the story about HER experience. For instance, I dont think any reader came away with the idea all the men ate dinner out each night in Page, AZ while the humbled wives and children left back home had tomato sandwiches like she did.

    Nor would anyone think that in every house there was a child abuser, performing the types of abuse like Babs did to Carolyns children.

    But you come away from that book with the idea the entire place is FUBAR, and your testimony pointed out you are subject to that still.

    As an exclamation point, note the convictions in Texas.

  419. My take on Carolines story is two-fold, firstly that no loud rejoinders have validated her claims and secondly Caroline has never changed her story and has often told it to anyone who would care to listen. To think this instance of poor parentage somehow puts FLDS families in a worsened light is wrong. The lack of adequate treatment abounds in the ‘Lost Boys’, ‘Child Brides’, inferior educations, home-schooled indoctrinations and denial of standard medical care which results in a disfunctional childhood that limits the children’s futures and skills to cope. The water breaking practice just fits the picture more than adequately to believe. I take Caroline Jessop at her word and realize that her independent actions to free and protect her children is one of the traits lacking in the majority of FLDS parents.

    You have to recognize that not one FLDS parent has ever come forward from the YFZ Raunch to convey any truth contrary to all the lies!

  420. CAJim: Mr. Marcus needs also to investigate a little deeper on where the Prophet Warren Jeffs gets his directions and playbook because crediting his actionsw as being his own overlooks the history that traces back to early Mormon teachings which he still worships and is observing!


    Jon Krakauer did exactly that with “Under the Banner of Heaven,” about the Lafferty brothers who brutally murdered their sister-in-law and her baby because she objected to polygamy.

    The mainstream LDS had a fit, of course, but there is no denying the roots of blood atonement.

  421. I think that the closed nature of the group, the absolute authority of the priesthood structure means that there is no redress for abuse. That makes extremes possible. It does not make them normal.

  422. Stamp, as astute a reader as you are, and in a measure of Ex-FLDS’ defense, I hope you read where Carolyn DID say the water torture was “common” – and I’ll admit my assumption here – in the whole community, not just HER experience.

    They spank the baby and when it cries, they hold the baby face up under the tap with running water. When they stop crying, they spank it again and the cycle is repeated until they are exhausted.”

    It’s typically done by fathers (plural) and it’s called ‘breaking in.’ ” [emphasis mine]

    Carolyn IS certainly testifying of this practice beyond Merril but begs the question (at least from me), HOW common is it and how does she know?

    Now… being the grammar freak that I am, there are multiple uses of the word, “they” (meaning typically fathers) in the quoted paragraph, and I wonder if the last “they” refers to the baby’s or the father’s exhaustion. *wicked smile*

    I do agree with Betty; it seems to me the baby would cry more.

    My point is, Ex-FLDS has her/his experience, Carolyn has hers, and I have mine. They all differ. What does that tell you? Personally, I can’t apply any disciplinary blankets.

    However, “dysfunctional” IS a pretty good FLDS blanket – IMO.

  423. Anon E Mouse that level of understanding and information is lacking in too many whom post here. Also, the Canadian Courts looking to redress the polygamy question hasn’t even considered:

    1.) Pre-eminent practice by the Elders and Prophet that says if a celestially betrothed wife is offered marriage by a higher exalted leader, the existing celestial bond can be broken.

    2,) Similarly the ‘reassignments’ of prior brides of apostates or deceased FLDS priests is done by the prophet.

    3.) There are no limitations as practiced on the number of celestial brides that may be taken and this compounds the negative impacts.

    4.) No value is being recognized to the first wife (Law of Sarah) nor the reality of the ‘favorite wife’, usually the younger and more desired spouse.

    While all of these fundamentalist practices are a part of their religious practices, none are being considered on just the present subject on polygyny. The practices of reassignments, release(divorce), pre-eminence, limit on brides betrothed or espoused brides rights points out the ‘Pandora’s Box’ aspect to this legal decision is granted.

  424. Sorry, E Texas but disfunctional is an acceptable variant of ‘dysfunctional’. I agree that the whole picture of the FLDS Church world conveys the truth than focusing on any individual practice.

  425. LOL… CAJim, I was not referring to your spelling; it is correct. I was referring to Stamp’s use of it – and not that it was incorrect. ‘Dysfunctional’ is, indeed, my personal assessment of FLDS life in general.

  426. I read a comment on one of the Canadian stories – generally I think that it is an issue many have not thought through as much as posters over here….but one issue came up that I hope gets more historical background for the Canadian lawsuit.

    The commenter said if polygamy is legalized or decriminalized that there would be a lot of trafficking of women from out of Canada into Canada. This makes sense to me in that I think that one of the problems for wannabee polygamists is convincing women to join, even if there isn’t a prohibition against proselytizing. So to get a woman raised as an averagely educated western female would make it more of a hard sell.

    But if you advertise for brides in third world countries who don’t know what they are getting into I could see them ending up trafficked thinking they were getting to a better life.

    Which made me think about the early days of Mormonism and the alleged comments that Brigham Young made about reserving the best of the northern European convert females for himself. I don’t know that that is a quote because I repeating something I did not read first hand…

    My point is there may be evidence in immigration records related to the early Mormon history which would support the idea of searching out unsuspecting brides wanting to leave poverty.

  427. Thanks for your input E. Texas. It puts things in perspective.

  428. I often hear the comment that if polygamy was decriminalized that those living in it would be more likely to report abuses, however there is no study which proves that to be true. I don’t think they would be more likely to report abuse due to decriminalization because failure to report abuse is more likely related to fear of retaliation of the cult group hierarchy or fear of rejection by other members of the group rather than fear of law enforcement. I concur with HHG, decriminalization in Canada will only increase trafficking in young women across the northern border.

  429. ….or because law enforcement IS the just a part of the cult.

  430. True Betty.

  431. ET, Ex FLDS

    I read the book and didnt come out with the feeling that she was pointing to systemic waterboarding, however it looks like she did say that. I think it is also born out in the book that there were cliques and sub cliques even within so-called families.

    Dysfunction at the junction, I know. Perhaps she projected this experience onto others when it wasnt deserved. That said, I am sure that there were a lot of crimes and abuse she never reported nor likely heard about.

    I would like to get a shout out, about reporting abuse to the CC police, as perhaps meaning you will find you need a lil visit with your local Bishop if your not keepin sweet and all.

  432. I am originally from SLC, moved to the Creek, have a huge circle of family and associates in both places…The SLC experience was definitely different from the creek experience, we felt like the Salt Lakers were more “taught” knew better and thus more holy..When I went to the Creek, it was a huge eye opener for me..The laid back attitudes, the nonchalance of the religion etc etc.

    To the person asking about the relationship between David and Lawrence Stubbs, are you meaning Lawrence Richie Stubbs living or Lawrence Richie deceased?

    As far as Carolyn’s narrative, I am ashamed to even be associated with her, I can tell you she has let herself get away from what is the truth, I’m sure she went through hell, everybody in all walks of life, go through tough times, some people like to blame others for it, others will put the blame where it belongs. Even her story of escape is false, she went to the dentist for crying out loud, then took off from there, escaping from the goons, watching for her?? Hell, shes fibbing, she didn’t even leave in the freaking middle of the night…It’s these little lies, along with the outright intimation that EVERY FLDS Father waterboards their children that makes me livid. She could be a power for voice and reason contrasted with Flora’s garbage, but she has chosen to go the same route, and make it more and more salacious. It doesn’t lend itself to believability except to the most extreme haters.

  433. Carolyn and Flora have made quite a cottage industry out of wild tales and accusations that were proven false even as the raid was progressing. carolyn has even been paid handsomly by the State of Texas for testimony concerning YFZ when she had NEVER been at YFZ before the raid.
    Escape may be a catchy title and an interesting way to sell a few books while simply driveing away just doesn’t increase book sales one bit. “Lost boys” really increases the emotional sales figures while grown men being sent from their parents home just doesn’t do a thing for rateings.
    Poor downtrodden women just seem to get more attention than a woman simply leaveing a husband or a church and the media mavins have learned to play to their audience, just ask Malonis for lessons on declareing a Virgin pregnant and sales will sky rocket.

  434. Y’all have me laughing so, I can hardly catch my breath! My sides hurt!

    Those men are still in or headed to the penitentiary for some of their crimes, right? The ones we can prosecute for having committed in the State of Texas?

  435. And those crimes are the same crimes Texans prosecute any and all felons for, any day of the week, right? Nothing special about FLDS criminals, correct?

  436. ex flds

    Granny taod has it right, the true colors of their undies are showing.

  437. zxc

    “Simply driveing away”


    Yeah, thats why they keep a high fence and locked gate around the YFZ, eh?

    No peskey wemen driveing away so easey anymore!

  438. “Lost boys” really increases the emotional sales figures while grown men being sent from their parents home just doesn’t do a thing for rateings (sic).

    In addition to not knowing how to spell, ZXC, teenagers are not “grown men.”
    Just two points of information for you there.

  439. ZXC,
    Your fine spelling and literary talent indicates to me that you are ex FLDS. That wasn’t a Catholic school education that you had.

  440. According to harris lines and brain maturity, adult male is around what, 25 years old? google

  441. I know, noc, isn’t that funny!

  442. Only flds think of 12 year olds as ‘grown’. Ready for sex and babies, or manual labor.

  443. Spot on, Toad. Skeletal maturity in males is achieved by age 25. Brain development is fully achieved by the mid twenties in both sexes.

  444. Only an flds would actually be so ignorant as to NOT know that catholic kids get a real education or else. No, I’m not catholic but got taught Latin in public school.

  445. ZXC take a breath, you must be frothing. How did you state it.”…a woman simply leaveing a husband or a church…”? You have watched the 2 year battle to secure bona-fide payments from the deadbeat Dad, namely the righteous Bishop Merril Jessop. Right? Your claim that being a witness is a valuable pay-day falls flat and your comment,”…the cottage industry out of wild tales…” is more hooey! People can get sued for libel in America, yet your bogus bluster can point to NO vidicating lawsuits. If being a resident of the YFZ Raunch is pre=requisite to testify against the FLDS Church, then you quoting from some section of Law that must come from a celestial source. You must have gotten some home-schooling when I read your spelling :

    ‘handsomly’, ‘driveing’, ‘rateings’, ‘leaveing’ & ‘declareing’

    The facts are that after Carolyn gave her testimony seven (7) successive verdicts of Guilty have followed from juries/plea bagains. I believe that Carolyn has served the State of Texas, Utah and Arizona very well and your gullibility is in full view.
    What’s it like to hold such extremists views and fanatical defense of indefensible crimes?

  446. Why can’t the FLDS send us some troll who can spell, punctuate, or construct a meaningful sentence ? They always send functional illiterates.

  447. Even her story of escape is false, she went to the dentist for crying out loud, then took off from there, escaping from the goons, watching for her?? Hell, shes fibbing, she didn’t even leave in the freaking middle of the night…It’s these little lies, along with the outright intimation that EVERY FLDS Father waterboards their children that makes me livid. She could be a power for voice and reason contrasted with Flora’s garbage, but she has chosen to go the same route, and make it more and more salacious. It doesn’t lend itself to believability except to the most extreme haters.

    Oh where have I heard this before? Hmmmm…..

    Ex FLDS
    Carolyn has been on the witness stand, sworn in many times in Texas FLDS rapist trials, and NOT ONCE HAS FLDS ATTORNIES PUT BETTY, HER DAUGHTER ON THE STAND TO REFUTE HER or HER BOOK. I DO BELIEVE BETTY WAS A PART OF THE STORY.

    Carolyn is telling the truth.

  448. Flds don’t even know we can spot their lies from a mile, how the hell would they even know how ignorant they are?

  449. I like Carolyn Jessop, I think she is a remarkable woman. I can’t speak to whether she speaks truth or lies, but there are a few things that cause me to question her credibility.

    1) In Triumph, she claims that Brigham Young was the founder of the original Mormon Church. Surely she knows it was Joseph Smith. I’ll chalk that one up to editing.

    2) She attributes a quote from the Journal of Discourses to Warren Jeffs instead of Brigham Young. I understand that he has been taped reading the quote from the pulpit, but it would be like taking a recording of a teacher reading from Huck Finn and then quoting snippets out of context in order to paint that person as a racist. Even if the teacher was accused of foul play with a student, that would be unethical. Even if the teacher was a racist, that would not be a reliable way to prove it.

    If you want to go after WSJ, use the mouth kissing 12 year old girls angle; don’t stoop to blatantly misquoting the man. I agree with the Bill of Rights. If I read it to a room full of people, can I get credit for coming up with it? Of course not.

  450. She attributes a quote from the Journal of Discourses to Warren Jeffs instead of Brigham Young. –

    Which quote was it that Jeffs was reading ?

  451. The quote was:

    “You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, or rude and filthy, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits; wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is usually bestowed upon mankind”

    He was reading from a Brigham Young sermon in JoD. In Carolyn’s defense, she isn’t the only one giving WSJ full credit for this quote.

  452. This is a full recording of his statements. He not only quotes Brigham Young, but he continues to expound upon Young’s statements. He does not condemn Young’s doctrine, he supports it, and that is unacceptable.

  453. Heah H-Bottoms can you be a little more vague, how about a quote so the rest of us can at least be on the same page? JOD chapter and page or sometin’.

    Carolyn Jessop has conducted one of the most heroic fights in the past decade and Flora has been in the fray for far longer. Funny how the men in this sect stand in the background, in the National Geographic only the women and children were in full view, most the men were in the back row, as usual.

  454. Thanks, H-Bottom I got it on JOD vol. 7 page 290.

  455. Very clearly in the recording above, Jeffs not only reads from previous statements of Brigham Young – he supports Young’s positions and further elaborates upon it. He doesn’t condemn Young’s heinous doctrines, he clearly supports those doctrines – which is unacceptable.

  456. Yes, Catholics are taught a classical education. I was even taught logical discourse by a Jesuit in my middle school years. He did not hold out high hopes for my future as a devout Catholic.

  457. I can tell that you had a Catholic school education, you write (and spell) very well

  458. But you have to at least mention that they are Brigham’s words.

    Remember, Warren did not invent the FLDS religion, he was raised in it from birth. As a teacher/ preacher in a religious school, it goes without saying that one of his duties would be to affirmatively teach the churches fundamental doctrines.

    Warren even says the page and verse number and names Brigham Young right before he reads it.

    I’m just saying, Warren has plenty of his own quotes that are now church doctrine that could have been used instead (ie: priesthood records). This seems like it was done because racism is the easiest way to demonize someone to the general public. I understand she doesn’t want to offend her Mormon readers, but as a former teacher, come on. Even in this sermon, he has his own quotes that would have gotten the same point across.

  459. So what ? Warren Jeffs is a bigot in addition to being a cult leader.

  460. How do you “affirmatively” teach bigotry and hatred ?

  461. The entertainment value of this site is priceless. Noone ever answers the questions raised by FLDS supporters they just try to belittle everyone that points out the wild tales told by ex-members and ignore the falsehoods spread by the former members.

    Now we have Warren reading the words of Young and in some fashion we are led to believe that the reading is some proof of some transgression. FUNDAMENTALIST religious leaders of every faith do not stray the roots of their religion. We have seen Smith and Young mocked since the 1830s. We have seen Martin Luther scoffed by catholics as well as the Pope ridiculed by every protestant sect.
    Religion is religion and the beliefs of a fundamentalist in any faith rests with the founders of thaeir respective faith. There is nothing new or synister in Warrens readings any more than a tea party member reading the constitution or a rabi reading the Talmud.
    So scoff on if you chose and let me leave you with a fue misspeled wurds to pondir. At least you can be correct on one issue.

  462. The Lawrence Ritchie who is the father of Donovan and Leroy Stubbs.

  463. Sorry my pseudo Catholic friend, bigotry is unacceptable in any religion, anywhere, anytime.
    You don’t like this site ? Don’t come here.

  464. Jeffs did A LOT more than quote Brigham Young in that tape. He also added his own obnoxious scriptural interpretations and opinions on the race of Cain. I’m no fan of Brigham Young or Jeffs. Both are bigots.
    So what if Carolyn attributed a statement from the Journal of Discourses to Jeffs. He believed it and elaborated on it further, and he continued to teach bigotry and hatred.

  465. as for “wild tales told by ex-members and ignore the falsehoods spread by the former members,” you don’t claim to live there, nor do you claim to an ex member of the cult, (although you do spell like them) so you would not be able to separate fact from fiction either.So we should believe you ?

  466. Ex-FLds, I don’t know where you got your version of Carolyn’s escape, but you are not at all correct. 4:00 might not be the middle of the night to the FLDS, but it is to me. The older of her children have agreed with the way their mother tells the story. Betty has never disputed it. Betty has been at the courthouse several times when Carolyn has testified and had ample opportunity to “correct” her mother’s story but it has never happened. That’s because Carolyn is telling the truth. She left when she did and how she did because Art was finally home from working construction at a time when Merril was out.

    Bottom line is there are plenty of FLDS members in Merril’s home who could be brought forth to refute the story, but none have come forward. Crazy Kathleen, the one who turned her in, had the ear of Anderson Cooper and could have told the whole world the FLDS version of Carolyn’s leaving, but she didn’t, she only lied about the underage marriages. Her daughter Sarah was married underage and had a child while underage, but she told Anderson that she hadn’t ever know of any underage marriages taking place.

    It’s not Carolyn who is telling lies, it’s the FLDS spin machine.

    Ex-FLDS, who exactly did you hear the story from? I know ZXC doesn’t have any first hand knowledge, he’s only here as Medvecky’s stooge. Maybe for his next assignment Medvecky can teach him how to spell.

  467. I am beginning to think there are only two kinds of people in the world. There are people who approach moral decisions in a binary mode and those who approach it in an analog mode. Forgive me for the computer terminology but since I heard someone say this the other day it has really stuck with me and I’ve been seeing this dichotomy in many news articles and discussions this week. The binary people tend to accept unquestioningly a set of beliefs and they see everything as either supporting those beliefs or attacking them, but nothing in between. There is black and white, good or evil, democrat or republican, conservative or liberal, etc. Extreme. You either are against any gun control laws or you want to take away every gun owned by an American citizen. You either want radical green house emmisions control right now or you are a blood sucking tool of the global corporation.

    The analog people come to conclusions after study, (if at all; the down side is analysis paralysis). They are not lacking faith but it is tempered by doubt or at least by the desire to continue learning. They see shades of gray and degrees of sin, from the tax cheats to genocidal dictators. They see coexistence with people who are not like them as possible, perhaps even enriching. They can, in short, agree to disagree.

    I’m finding it harder and harder to have any patience with the binary people. They are equally as closed, obtuse and annoying no matter whether they are on “my side” of an argument or the opposite. What a waste of time and human potential.

  468. CAJim, not only is Merril a deadbeat dad, he had the nerve to say that he didn’t owe them support once they left his household. That man is a lunatic. That might be the way people in Utah and Arizona think, but that’s not the way we think here in Texas.

  469. Hilltop

    There is a cottage industry of people finding errata in Hollywood movies. Please understand that studios spend tens of millions if not hundreds of millions on producing each movie, yet errors squeak by studious editors.

    If you are proposing that Carolyns book is wrong, because of misunderstanding, projection or any errors, well I’m sure a library isnt the place for you, as lots of other books have them too…

    Imagine that.

    But on another note, glad you paid attention to the details… 😉

  470. Proud Texan

    Not only is Merril’s behavior dispicable, but so are the governments of UT and AZ for letting those flds cowboys ride herd on the victims like they do.

    There are some good people in CC to be sure, its just too bad the bad guys were given full reign.

    Well any hoot maybe thats coming to an end.

  471. Warren Jeffs made his own bigoted statements about people of African descent IN ADDITION to quoting other bigoted fundamentalists.
    The fact remains – Warren Jeffs is a bigot and a hater, and a teacher of bigotry and hate, just like the leader of the Westboro Baptist Church.
    Jeffs had the opportunity to repudiate bigotry and embrace compassion and understanding but he didn’t do it.
    Thank you to people like Carolyn and Fincenmib for bringing his bigotry to our attention, despite the critique for not giving the proper attribution.

  472. Bishop Merrill Jessop – why is he a bishop ? He doesn’t meet New Testament criteria for that status – see below

    1 Timothy 3 :
    Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being a bishop,a he desires a noble task. 2Now the bishop must be ABOVE REPROACH, THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, temperate, self-controlled, RESPECTABLE, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must MANAGE HIS OWN FAMILY WELL and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a GOOD REPUTATION WITH OUTSIDERS, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

  473. Good point, Stamp. I still think it would have been much more effective to quote him directly. Such as, earlier in this sermon, his insistence that this generation has taken on the spirit of the negro and therefore the spirit of the devil, citing examples. Perhaps his history of rock music: The Beatles were nobodies until a “black homosexual on drugs” taught them how to do it. Since all rock music is derived from them, to listen to it is to take on the spirit of the negro.

    Those parts were HIS words, and thus were much more damning. You can’t just blame him for a piece of LDS scripture that has been around since the 1850s or ’60s. I believe the LDS have not omitted that particular verse from their version of the JoD either. (Does anyone know?)

  474. I’m thinking we must be hitting some nerves here if they feel the need to send XYZ (or shall I just call him Ignorant Liar?) here and “ex-FLDS”. Ex, Carolyn has plenty of credibility with me. I realize that every single statement she wrote is not necessarily the full and correct truth — she’s a human being. However she did something, protected her children, and did what she could to share her experiences with others. Feel free to nitpick all you want — you don’t destroy Carolyn’s acheivements with your petty complaints. And I’d like to know just where this apocryphal “dentist” story came from. I’m guessing it was put forth in a service at the crick. I like how it’s presented as if it were a fact with absolutely NO corresponding evidence to back it up. It’s simply true because someone whose veracity is suspect said so? hahahahahaha!

    You know, I’m wondering if Warren’s lawyer didn’t quit because Warrent wanted him to mishandle the case so he could appeal it later? I know, it’s a crazy thought, but I had to wonder as soon as I read about Warren’s latest courtroom Cheltenham tragedy. lol

  475. Hilltop

    Excellent points too… though I’m not sure her focus was so much on Jeffs racism so much but rather on other particular details that bothered her personally.

    As I recall, her uneasiness was probably centered more on his new rules and younger child marriages, and as she had young girls, this may well have irked her much more.

    To be sure, Warren has proven to be an extremist and also a big promoter of what Texas is calling “Sexual Assault on a Child” when they convict his tenet followers and himself in his upcoming trial.

    Although this speech by Warren regarding race is bigoted and racist, and it has historic Church roots as well as his expounding statements on them, the effect on people in the creek is completely negligible as there are no people of color that live there.

    The biggest thing to fear amongst adherents was now to be caught listening to the radio and hearing such damned to tarnation sounds.

    I did get a kick out of Carolyn’s note that she was given a clock radio alarm which as I recall was her first anniversary gift (and only) from Merril, and lo and behold, she could listen to music and talk radio on the sly – all forbidden of course.

  476. S

    Good catch, but do you think the flds have actually read the Bible?

  477. Yeah, right ZXC we’re only right on one issue and you are wrong on dozens more than anyone here. The big case during the YFZ Rescue wasn’t that all suspicions were affirmed but rather if any crimes, as alleged, had occurred. You place importance on no crematorium was found but a cache of weapons, including a .50 caliber sharpshooter rifle was seized. Baby graves doesn’t interest me half as much as a doctor and prenatal care that was operating on the YFZ Raunch. Failure to report underage pregnancies and altering the official records is very criminal.
    Conducting an open house at the YFZ Raunch has now proven to have been a staged propaganda attempt to cover-up harboring a fugitive, operating a clinic unlawfully and no witnesses to any crimes now prosecuted. Nothing new here as far as the felony charges go, they’re were 8 indictments in 2005 that ended with convictions for sexual assault in Arizona. This then is a continued crime spree into Texas and I believe3 other Rocky Mountain FLDS enclaves. Desecrating a Temple that has no legal status is just more baseless gobbleygook tirades by you. I have now doubt as to why walls are being erected within the YFZ and keeping people out isn’t my thinking. Motion detectors, sharpshooter rifle and surveilance cameras mounted inside on corridors are accoutrements of prisons not secured facilities.
    The debate of unjust trespasses, ‘witch hunt’ claims and abuse of power by authorites has been lost given the convictions.

    ZXC care to proclaim that the underaged ‘Child Bride’ was plural married to Warren Jeffs, soley by proxy and no sexual assault occurred?

  478. Oh brother……… each of you need to take a ride to East Texas and sit in a baptist church a while to get a real lecture on the sins of rock and roll. “The mark of Cain”………..and or descendants of Ham sermon and the demon “negro roots” of rock have been preached agaainst since the verses were written in the Bible and since well before the Juke joint ever opened it’s doors.
    Big whoop. If you don’t like the sermon don’t join the church. If you don’t like the biblical passages then strike them from your Bible. If you don’t like the fact that black people are belittled lead a civil rights march.
    In this country it is not illegal to believe and preach from a religious text and whether you like it or not spewing the word hate to demonize someone you dispise is such a waste of time.
    Sit in a Southern Baptist congregation in East Texas once and you may find that Warrens disdain for rock is shared by many for many of the same reasons he cites.. Oh well I just put on the white album and need a break from this exercise in futility. It is easy to ignore someones religious views but now that I see that Warren hates the Beatles I may have to get really upset………

  479. Stamp,
    The New Testament is part of the FLDS Canon of Scriptures. Apparently they need to review it before appointing bishops.

  480. ZXC, if you think that religious bigotry is acceptable in any denomination or religion you are incorrect.

  481. ZXC, I don’t need to travel to East Texas to sit in a Baptist Church, I sit in one every Sunday, Southern Baptist no less. Bigotry, hatred, Mark of Cain, Ham sermon’s aren’t ever taught.

    Earlier you claimed to be Catholic, now your trying to spout Baptist philosophy. You need to figure out what you are (besides Medvecky’s lap dog) before you come back spewing your crap.

  482. ZXeC

    All smoke, no sparks. But hey, it sounds good if you can pretend to blame bigotry on others too, right?

    It reminds me of the argument that Child molestation is OK for the flds because other people get caught doing it too…

    Somehow that doesnt justify it for me…. I guess not Texas either!

  483. I have NEVER heard a sermon in a Baptist congregation wherein the pastor referred to the descendants of Cain as being of African descent. Never.
    Never heard the descendants of Ham sermon either.
    I don’t doubt that it goes on at the Westboro Baptist Church, and I condemn them for it. Their tax exempt status (if they have it) should be revoked because they are a HATE group, not a religion.
    If such sermon were ever delivered in the interracial and ethnically diverse Baptist church I attend, I would walk out, and I think the rest of the congregation would follow.
    There is NO statement in the Bible, New Testament or Old, which states that the descendants of Cain are Africans. That is racist spin created by the ilk of the Westboro Baptist Church. It is NOT Biblical doctrine.

  484. Betty – I agree with you on binary and analog thinkers..

    Others – I agree that somebody’s nerves are on edge

    Rebeckah – interesting theory on Warren’s dismissal of is lawyer as having been instructed to fail on purpose.

    My prediction – when various details come out with respect to Warren’s trial there will be a whole lot more random postings by unhinged people

  485. S, I asked my preacher about it and he’s a Bible scholar and a divinity phd and he’s never found a mention of Cain being Black, African or anything other than what Adam and Eve were.

    As for Westboro, they are not a Baptist Church, no matter what they say. It just ain’t happening. They can claim to be one, but they a hate group pure and simple.

  486. HHG, I can’t wait for details of Warren’s trial to come out. I mean a 50 year old man having sex with a girl who is barely 12. That’s just plain gross.

  487. The Cain being black thing – it was an interpretation that was very popular prior to, during, the Civil War and hung around a bit. If you give me time I have a book by the preacher who popularized it in about 1850.

    I would be surprised if it was taught in divinity school anywhere these days.

  488. Is FLDS *really* teaching their flock to “believe” such crap as this?

  489. In a word Granny, yes.

  490. The doctrine that African peoples are descendants of Cain is ridiculous. It was taught in the 19th century by some fundamentalists.
    It doesn’t make sense however, if you are truly a fundamentalist who takes the Bible literally. Interestingly, the first polygamist, Lamech, was a descendant of Cain.
    Remember the Flood and Noah’s Ark ?
    The descendants of Cain did not make it to the Ark, and they are thought to have all perished in the Flood.

  491. Hee…Heee…Hee, Bye,bye ZXC

  492. Yes, the whole “negros have the mark of Cain” thing was really popular as an excuse to enslave them. I don’t know of any rational churches that teach that today. Apparently XYZ doesn’t bother to frequent rational churches. He’s got Catholics who don’t bury non-Catholics in their parish cemeteries, Baptists who teach racist excrement — any other inaccurate accusations you want to sling there, XYZ? It seems to me that you’re big on accusations and claims and woefully weak on actual evidence — just what I’ve come to expect from Warren’s crowd. I’m sure he’s really proud of you, though — your lies are almost believable. (Well, no, not really — I was lying there.) lol

  493. It is without wonder that SPLC rates FLDS as a hate group up with KKK.

  494. Maybe some of these racists like Warren Jeffs should read the Bible.
    According to the Old Testament, the descendants of Cain all perished in Flood. Noah and his descendants were descendants of Seth, the third son of Adam and Eve. Therefore modern day people of African descent could not possibly be descended from Cain. This is another instance where FLDS doctrine collides with the teaching of the Bible, which they supposedly hold sacred as part of their Canon of Scripture.

  495. He covers that in another part of this same sermon. All 7 parts were posted in one of the last 2 open discussions. Basically, he says Hams wife was of that seed and that it was done so that the devil would have a representation on the earth and that is how the negro survived the flood. (and he reads it all from Mormon scriptures).

  496. Oh yes yes yes……you acknowledge the biblical teachings then scoff and redirect to suit your needs, how entertaining.
    Why not rewrite the bible to suit your 21st century needs and require everyone to believe your new US pop version of the new and revised all politically correct bible.

    Freedom of religion folks. I have sat in several churches and listened to sermons that don’t fit the modern version of American religious correctness. In no case was I offended and in no way have I renounced my religious beliefs.
    I posit that many here simply nitpick to suit their anti FLDS tastes and see a boogieman at every turn.
    It is so nice to see that some here acknowledge the inconsistancies of Carolyns tall tales yet still revere her, yet the same courtesy isn’t afforded a religious leader that has every right to preach his fundamentalist beliefs. warrens words are for the most part taken from his religious books and the various founders of his religioun. Polygamy wasn’t Warrens Idea. The “maturity” for marraige wasn’t warrens idea.
    Do we need to set some standard for a religion that this country will accept and require that noone speaks of a religious belief not sanctioned by some committee in Washington.
    A religion was “targeted” in Texas and those are not warrens words or the words of any pro or anti flds group.
    All the name calling in the world will not change the fact that the words that Warren Jeffs speaks, for the most part, are not his and have been spoken by some preachers from some pulpit before.
    Religion people, Freedom of religion. Those are not the words of Warren Jeffs or Attila the Hun or even me.
    So worship at the church of your choice and if you don’t like the sermon chose another church. Religion does not have to fit your idea of what is correct in this century. Religion and the words in the bible are timeless unless you believe that they are not and in such a case write your own bible and build your own church, you have that right in this country.

  497. Another side-splitter.

  498. I am just now reading today’s postings and all I can say is WOW what a bunch of ca ca.

    From my observations, it appears that ZXC, Ex-FLDS and Hilltop really jumped on E. Texas’ comment that there was no baby waterboarding in her family (thank goodness). Then, because this torture didn’t happen in her family, they seemed to go off on tangents that Carolyn Jessop is lying because she said that this type of abuse to babies occurred in her family (although she also said that references to this type of abuse were written in her cousin’s baby book).

    They then continue to say that further lies are being spread about Warren making a horribly racist comment (which he indeed made and is proven by a tape recording), because it was totally attributed to Warren instead of Brigham Young (the original person who first spoke these racist words). OH PLEASE.

    A so-called prophet of God doesn’t get up on the pulpit and speak in racial and bigoted terms in front of hundreds of church followers unless he believes and supports that racist garbage.

    It really doesn’t matter if credit is given to Brigham Young for originally coming up with this statement or not; Warren Jeffs spewed hateful, hurtful and bigoted comments to his congregation!

    I agree with what Nocturnal Anon said earlier today –
    Why can’t the FLDS send us some troll who can spell, punctuate, or construct a meaningful sentence? They always send functional illiterates.

    Not all of the FLDS trolls are bad spellers, but today’s FLDS trolls all jumped on the bandwagon after E. Texas’ comment in order to discredit Carolyn Jessop and show that Warren Jeffs is not a racist bigot.

    Too bad that Bill Medvecky’s blog is no longer in service. Now the FLDS trolls must find a place to do damage control on the Internet and have decided to park themselves here.

    I come to this conclusion because ZXC just recently came here and only today did Ex-FLDS and Hilltop join him to point out how wonderful the child-abusing, racially-bigoted FLDS are.

    Fortunately, most posters on this blog saw right through it and know the truth.

  499. Yeah yeah yeah. Church of the Bank Robber. Church of Cannibalism. Church of Mass Murder and Gum Spitting. Church of Drug Dealing.

    O yeah.

  500. ZXC, I think people here see that you are not a Catholic, nor are you a Baptist. My bet is that you are FLDS. Care to confirm that?

  501. Betty, your comparison of the binary and analog thinkers was spot on. I’ve never heard that before, but I have to agree with the logic.

  502. “It is so nice to see that some here acknowledge the inconsistancies of Carolyns tall tales yet still revere her,”

    I don’t believe Carolyn has told any “tall tales”. I believe she is a human being and may have made mistakes, remembered things somewhat wrong, or even attributed her experiences to the group as a whole. Those are normal human behaviors and everyone does it. You’ve been quite guilty of it yourself ZXC, although I strongly suspect you made up your examples rather than actually experienced them.

    “yet the same courtesy isn’t afforded a religious leader that has every right to preach his fundamentalist beliefs.”

    There is nothing I’ve seen of Warren that is worthy of respect. He has actively and deliberately physically and emotionally abused men, women and children by abusing the power they have so foolishly given him. Whether or not he has a “right” to preach his hateful, racist doctrine is beside the point. He is not an admirable human being.

    “warrens words are for the most part taken from his religious books and the various founders of his religioun.”

    Yeah, that’s why the big bad boogyman of his nightmare was a Negress, although he didn’t even know how to spell that one.

    “Polygamy wasn’t Warrens Idea.”

    And yet he embraced it so enthusistically.

    “The “maturity” for marraige wasn’t warrens idea.”

    The “maturity” for marriage was ALL Warren’s idea. There is NOTHING in the LDS teachings that say anyone must marry off underage girls. Warren did it deliberately, admits to doing it deliberately in his dictations, and choose it all by his lonesome and not because Brigham Young or Joseph Smith claimed it was “righteous”. And let me point out a few more of his very own, abusive, bright ideas:

    Denying a 16 year old girl in labor access to a hospital because it might get her criminal husband in trouble.

    Separating a dying woman from her children and callously allowing them to believe they’ll never see each other again.

    Telling a 14 year old girl that she must submit mind, body and soul to a man she didn’t want in her life. (And I’m sure Elyssa isn’t the only one he did that particular bit of pimping with.)

    Separating children from their parents — particularly fathers but also from their mothers in several cases.

    Taking a sheltered young woman and ordering her abandoned on one of the most racy sections of road in Vegas and ordering her to walk all by herself for several miles.

    Treating a 12 year old girl like a grown woman — “marrying” her (hah!) and then kissing her like a grown woman. By the way, that one all by itself is sexual abuse in the state I live in. The FLDS might want to avoid Washington State.

    And, absolutely most henious in my mind, denying so many children safe, strong, healthy, complete childhoods with good educations.

    Warren Jeffs is a monster — he’d be a monster no matter what religion he was in but, like most predators, he chose an environment where he could indulge and refine on his abusive desires.

  503. HHG said “The Cain being black thing – it was an interpretation that was very popular prior to, during, the Civil War and hung around a bit.”

    I was born and raised in the deep South. My great aunt was a little girl during the “War of Northern Aggression” as she used to call it. My great grandparents “owned” slaves and I grew up with our slave deed hanging on the wall in our house.

    I attended many different churches when I was growing up – Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian and Lutheran. Yes, I guess I am somewhat diversified in churches in the deep South.

    I don’t understand racism and I don’t see a reason for it, although I did grow up in the midst of desegregation in the deep South.

    During all of my years living in the South – listening to my great aunt speak about the Civil War times and going to many different denominations of Christian churches in the South – I never once heard anything about Cain being black. I had never heard such a thing until I was exposed to the teachings of the LDS church.

    Maybe you are right that it was a belief during the Civil War, HHG, but I really tend to believe that this thinking is an LDS/FLDS thing.

  504. S. Bishop Merrill Jessop – why is he a bishop ? He doesn’t meet New Testament criteria for that status – see below
    1 Timothy 3 :
    Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being a bishop,a he desires a noble task. 2Now the bishop must be ABOVE REPROACH, THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE,


    That is from the Christian Bible. Joseph Smith wrote his own bible so he could justify committing adultery with other men’s wives.

  505. ZXC: In this country it is not illegal to believe and preach from a religious text


    No, it is not. But Warren Jeffs is not on trial for preaching, he’s on trial for sexual assault of a child.

    Tony Alamo, Warren Jeffs, Brian David Mitchell – they all claim they have a religious right to have sex with little girls.

    They don’t.

  506. Interestingly, the first polygamist, Lamech, was a descendant of Cain.
    Remember the Flood and Noah’s Ark ?
    The descendants of Cain did not make it to the Ark, and they are thought to have all perished in the Flood.

    S. said this on January 13, 2011 at 11:08 PM

    S, if this is true then Warren has some “splaining” to do to his flock.

  507. XCZ: Religion people, Freedom of religion.


    You can’t use “freedom of religion” to avoid prosecution for committing a crime.

    There is no reason the FLDS can’t wait until a girl is 18 before marrying her off, but Warren DELIBERATELY decided to start marrying off the underage girls to force a show down with the US Government.

    “Be careful what you wish for” in a big way.

  508. Anon E Mouse you are so right about that; Warren wrote that in his own “dictations”. That cockiness is going to cost him dearly in Texas. His goose is cooked! The lucky man gets his wish in a showdown … Texas style.

  509. The LDS church does not have a version of the J of Discourses and does not publish the JOD. The JOD has never been canonized as scripture by the LDS. The JOD was started primarily to provide employment for an early church stenographer, George Watts. Even the early church leaders did not affirm that the JOD was correct and verify everything in it.

    People in this county do have the freedom to believe in any religion they want to. They can preach and write about their beliefs. However, if their religious PRACTICES consist of actions that are illegal they are subject to prosecution. Warren and his followers are not being prosecuted for their religious beliefs, but for activities that are illegal. The focus should be on those illegal activities.

  510. ZXC

    “Do we need to set some standard for a religion that this country will accept ”

    Thats been done. Follow the law, build yourself a Temple and knock yourself out.

    Molest children? You will be in a different Temple attended with fellow members not of your choosing.

  511. I find it ironic that the emergency legislation directed at those Westboro bozo’s will have an impact up there in Shortcrick for the flds too.

    Birds of a feather in more ways than one!

  512. “Oh yes yes yes……you acknowledge the biblical teachings then scoff and redirect to suit your needs, how entertaining.”

    ZXC, I didn’t redirect biblical teachings to suit my needs. I quoted the Bible.

  513. S ,

    You quote the bible as saying that a bishop must be the husband of one wife…..

    How does that apply to celibate catholic bishops?

    I know it’s off topic, but i’m curious……

  514. The book:
    Noah’s Curse: The Biblical Justifcation of American Slavery
    by Stephen R. Haynes

    The popularizing preacher (Presbyterian) Benjamin M. Palmer a founder of Rhodes College (1855). Book traces the taught to early christianity and its pre-eminance as a Lost Case justification, up to the Bob Jones University conflicts.

  515. That being said

    Unless you are KKK or an Aryan offshoot NOBODY today teaches it with the exception of Warren Jeffs….(that I know of)

  516. Melissa,
    The words of the text of 1 Timothy 3 in Greek are that a bishop must be a “one woman man”
    This idiomatic expression of the New Testament period referred to a man who was chaste before marriage and subsequently monogamously faithful to one woman – no adultery, no polygamy – during his marriage.

  517. “Basically, he says Hams wife was of that seed and that it was done so that the devil would have a representation on the earth and that is how the negro survived the flood. (and he reads it all from Mormon scriptures).”

    Hilltop Bottoms,
    The Old Testament does not record that Ham’s wife is a descendant of Cain.

  518. You all above are correct:

    In the context of the prosecution of the FLDS leadership it does
    not matter in the least what they believe and how they come to chose their foundational documents.

    What does matter is that THEY OBEY THE LAWS OF THE STATE AND NATION they live in.

  519. Warren Jeffs not only espoused racist theology, he practiced it.

    After all, how many people of color did he hire for his businesses ?
    How many business associates of African origin did he, or other FLDS associated businesses, have ?
    Probably none.

  520. As far as catholic priest celibacy. Paul…the part where he says it is better by far to be celibate but if you must, then marry, for it is better to marry than to burn. The Church took the part about how it’s better to be celibate as justification. The real reason was that the church did not want to support families and they certainly did not want an heir laying claim to church property. In the feudal period, a religious appointment was a lucrative career, with rents, income from market days, etc. as well as lots of land and holdings.

    However, this is not something that was at all settled, done and without disagreement from the start. There is so little evidence of what was done in the early church (first 200 years or so) that it really is not known. And as the Church grew geographically faster than the development of it’s hierarchy could control, especially given the lack of cell phones and fast transportation, there were anomalies in various religious settlements along the way. A notable instance was Ireland, which was pretty much the end of the world to people in Rome, where it was not unusual to have a monastery with males on one side, females on the other and families with children in the middle. The Irish objected to celibacy to such an extent that there was a movement to declare a schism. The Catholic church did not end this completely until the 11th century. Of course, priests having hidden wives or mistresses was quite common until the Reformation, to the point that the second Borgia pope was the grandson of the first Borgia pope. (infallible as my wrinkly old ass) Because the criticism of this rule breaking was part of the reason for the Reformation, the church came down on it pretty hard at that time and the practice became much more rare.

  521. The doctrine of celibacy for the Catholic priesthood is not based on a mandate in the New Testament. There is no New Testament requirement for a celibate priesthood. St. Paul did teach that celibacy was a better way to serve God without encumberance, but it is not mandated for members of the clergy or bishops.

    The celibacy mandate for the Catholic priesthood is based on the teachings of St. Benedict, if my memory serves me correctly, as codified circa 1000 AD

  522. For you, Melissa – an article on celibacy in the Catholic Church –

  523. I have heard sermons and lectures that use Paul as the reason, so I’m taking that as tradition rather than official doctrine. Not disagreeing with you.

    St Benedict was much, much earlier than that. Historically, someone would request of the Pope a charter to start a monastery and would present a rule or set of guidelines under which it was to be run. St Benedict originated this concept. So the rule of celibacy evolved from these charters over time. The Council of Nicea (400?) forbid a priest from living with an unmarried woman other than a mother or sister. According to Wiki, it was 1123, the first Lateran council, when a specific canonical prohibition was first recorded. That is the same time period as Bernard of Clairvaux, the Cluny movement and an era of reform of the orders.

  524. How many underaged ‘Child Brides’ has the Prophet Warren S. Jeffs taken to bed in plural marriage?

    Warren S. Jeffs has a total of how many ‘Celestial’ wives?

    How many children does Warren S. Jeffs have that are living?

    The monies that where misappropted from the UEP Trust, while Warren S. Jeffs was in charge, are still unaccounted for and these funds are either being held or have been spent, either way the use of the assets has been illegally embezzled. When will Warren S. Jeffs make a full accounting of these misappropriated funds?

    When will Federal and/or State authorities either invoke the RICO Act or take law enforcement actions to effectively enforce existing stautes to end this criminal enterprise being operated in several intra-state locations?

  525. “People in this county do have the freedom to believe in any religion they want to. They can preach and write about their beliefs. However, if their religious PRACTICES consist of actions that are illegal they are subject to prosecution. Warren and his followers are not being prosecuted for their religious beliefs, but for activities that are illegal. The focus should be on those illegal activities.”

    Excellently put, Chemist. The claim of persecution because of their religion is, frankly, moronic. The fact is these men are being prosecuted for committing crimes and Warren in particular made it perfectly clear in his dictations that he KNEW they were crimes and chose to commit them anyway. He is no different from Brian Mitchell in my eyes. In fact, I believe he is undoubtedly guilty of kidnapping (ordering it done) as well. Too many men have not been allowed to see their wives and children. And then there’s the 15 year old girl whose family was kicked out because Mom said “No” to her underage marriage — but she was married anyway.

    I repeat, Warren Jeffs is a monster. He’s the worst kind of monster because he hides his abuse behind a gentle voice and pretend kindness but he is an abuser and a monster. I honestly wonder how many animals he tortured growing up.

  526. I’m from the south, and while I know of people (mostly older) who believe(d) in the cursed son on Noah (Ham) was black theory. I have never witnessed anyone spouting the mark of Cain theory. Hopefully both theories will disappear into the mists of time.

  527. Hey, Rebeckah! I’ve missed you!

  528. So anyway where Warren Jeffs and his ilk are concerned, along with the rest of the US population whatever their religious claims or lack thereof:


    “believe” whatever you dangwell please but don’t forget:


  529. Look what happens when Warren tells his followers that sex is only for procreation and they aren’t supposed to enjoy it!

    Police: Prostitution sting nets 9 men

    The Spectrum & Daily News • Published: January 14. 2011 4:55AM – Last modified: January 14. 2011 7:42AM

    ST. GEORGE – A prostitution sting in St. George ended with nine arrests yesterday.

    Detectives with the St. George Police Department Investigations Division conducted a vice sting operation in the St. George area.

    Police said based off information from an ongoing investigation suggesting subjects were allegedly involved in patronizing prostitutes in the area, the investigation culminated last night when detectives arrested several adult males who had arranged to solicit sexual acts in exchange for money.

    Police charged Lance Mackelprang, Dennis Hymas, Nathan Voorhis, James Cook, Dalton Barlow, Stephen Caskey, Robert Lewis, Bryan Tuttle and Charles Brennan with patronizing a prostitute.

    The Spectrum is working to find more details about the investigation.

    Follow The Spectrum on Twitter @SpectrumNews.

    Fan us on Facebook for breaking news.–Prostitution-sting-nets-9-men

    Birth Date: 10/23/85
    Address : PO BOX 2811, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    16:05:29 01/13/11 Olmstead, Adam SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-10-1303 PATRONIZE PROSTITUTE BM WCJ7 587.00 587.00

  530. So if ZXC is a practicing Catholic, what is he doing sitting in on Southern Baptist East Texas sermons? And what difference does it make if someone else preaches hate from the pulpit, it’s still evil.

    And there’s a very popular argument going on right now – that it’s irresponsible or dangerous to point out behavior that is evil. That it’s legal to speak hate, it’s a constitutional right, but it’s wrong somehow to note that speaking hate is wrong. I have just as much of a constitutional right to say that Warren Jeffs is racist in a way that is not befitting a Christian as he has to speak his beliefs about the mark of Cain. So, ZXC, if you don’t like the sermon, don’t go to that church, which includes reading this blog.

  531. FLDS Texas need thread called FALSE PROPHETS

    For the prophecies that did not come true, first with Joseph Smith, then Warren.

    18:20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

    18:21 And if thou say in thy heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken?

    18:22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt NOT BE AFRAID OF HIM.

    I AM

  532. Rebeckah: Thank you fopr your positive comment on my post. The flds claims of persecution on the basis of religion while they are commiting under age marriage and other illegal activities is indeed moronic. It only makes them and their supporters look more even more foolish.

  533. Maybe if we keep reminding them, chem, one or two will get the idea.

    It’s like Warren’s brother saying he’s a criminal on tv, or those women outright lying on tv for all to see and hear. They don’t know how stupid that is.

  534. Rumour is that IITMOC was outed last weekend..Can anyone confirm?

  535. Library sought for Colorado City

    By JIM SECKLER/The Daily News
    Published: Monday, January 10, 2011 11:26 PM MST

    KINGMAN — Renewed efforts are being made to put a county library branch in Colorado City.

    Elaine Tyler of the Hope Organization in Washington, Utah, is asking District 1 Sup. Gary Watson along with District 2 Sup. Tom Sockwell to support a public library in Colorado City. The issue was brought up at a Sept. 7, 2010, board meeting with District 3 Sup. Buster Johnson opposing the item.

    At the September meeting, the board took no action in accepting the 1.79-acre parcel from United Effort Plan trust for $10 in Colorado City to use as a county library. Jake Barlow, of Colorado City, and Warren Johnson, of Hildale, Utah, both opposed the county accepting the land that had been used as a religious school in the community.

    At that meeting, Barlow and Johnson said the county could be sued because Bruce Wisan, the fiduciary for the United Effort Plan, should not give church’s land to the county. Wisan has offered to donate the land and a former school building on the land for $10. The Hope Organization would even pay the $10 needed for a quick claim deed, Tyler said.

    Tyler also said thousands of dollars worth of books have already been donated to the library and many citizens in the Colorado City area have supported a library using an assessment fee on their property taxes. The books are stored at the school building but vandals recently broke windows that could have damaged some of the books.

    Read more –

  536. So Buster – grow some spine
    Wisan is the court appointed fiduciary

  537. I am sorry for IITMOC if he was outed without wanting to be….

    What a concept “OUTED” says it all doesn’t it?

  538. regarding iitmoc, not that we know of ..if that did occur, I hope that he and his family are ok.

  539. Heya, Betty. I’m afraid I abandoned my computer for my new Harvest Moon video game. But nothing can keep me away for too long, lol!


  540. I really hope the library actually happens for the town. I love my local library! Too bad someone had to break in a damage some books. Idiotic, but par for the course. I just hope that people trying to use it won’t be subjected to harrassment…since outside knowledge is heavily frowned upon.

  541. “Rumour is that IITMOC was outed last weekend..Can anyone confirm?”

    Anonymous said this on January 14, 2011 at 1:45 PM


    This doesn’t make sense to me…

    IITMOC is supposedly anonymous. If you heard a rumor about him/her, then you must know who he/she is and/or have a source(s) for the rumor who knows who they’re talking about.

    Assuming the above, I wonder why you are asking for rumor confirmation on this blog? Are you trying to make trouble?

    Sorry if I come across as skeptical, but you are anonymous and something smells fishy to me.

  542. I smell a rat too ET

  543. I’m right there smelly something sticky myself.

  544. thankyou S and Betty

  545. They really hate books so much over in that CC, amazing. Do they boil witches in ketchup too? Pack babies in butterboxes? Pickle christians and okra?

    Do the FLDS in Texas ever go to the CC library over their way in Mitchell County, or the one in Schleicher County, I wonder?

  546. Granny, what are you talking about?

  547. Libraries, Anony. Books.

  548. no you’re talking about the flds going to mitchell county.

  549. Oh. Colorado City then?

  550. Granny appears to be making a rather drab joke about them going to the library in the Colorado City that is located in Mitchell County Texas, as opposed to the one in Mojave County, Arizona where they actually live.

    What’s wrong, Anon 6:07? Can’t you read minds? Sheesh.

    As for the ketchup, “butterboxes” and Okra, your guess is as good as mine. I’ll have to assume that someone who promoted the burning of books also supported all that other nonsense. It certainly wasn’t the Nazi’s. I think you would have to actually be a granny to get that joke.

  551. Granny, you jes cain’t r’sist a li’l leg-pullin’ cain ya!?

    An’ it’wern’t drab neither!

  552. VANCOUVER — Water torture of babies is one way some members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day instill fear of authority, a former member testified Wednesday.

    “It’s quite common,” Carolyn Blackmore Jessop told the constitutional reference case to determine whether Canada’s polygamy law is valid.

    “They spank the baby and when it cries, they hold the baby face up under the tap with running water. When they stop crying, they spank it again and the cycle is repeated until they are exhausted.”

    It’s typically done by fathers and it’s called “breaking in.”

  553. This practice has been brought up in court cases before. It was brought up during the Ruth Stubbs case, she also said toddlers were locked in closets for hours on end. Ammon Larsen of the Kingstons said in his home it was practiced this way. If a baby cried its face was slapped hard. He said it worked his little sister never cried after 5 months of age. Numerous people have reported this practice in the FLDS, it did not originate with Carolyn.

  554. Actually Ruth Stubbs said pillows were held down over the face of babies until they stopped crying. Look when you have 20 children in a household, you want them silent and obedient. This is in the court documents so don’t blame Carolyn on the sick practices of a cult.

  555. Ennnhhhhh some folks are plain eyesoles.

  556. I was closed in a small shed until well after dark but was getting toward age 3.

  557. Toad, you’re kidding. Your family really locked you in a shed until dark ?

  558. What a bunch of eyesoles!

  559. I found this article which indicates that children are at a higher risk of being victims of physical abuse if they are born to younger mothers or live in an impoverished family, or if the child didn’t come from an intact two parent family.

    Risk Factors for Child Physical Abuse:

    Danielle A. Black, Richard E. Heyman, Amy M. Smith – Slep

    Department of Psychology, State University of New York, Stony Brook, NY 11794-2500, USA
    Received 27 March 2000.
    Available online 14 March 2001.


    We review the risk and protective factors for child physical abuse (CPA). An etiological model based on moderate to strongly supported risk factors would begin with distal perpetrator variables of being abused as a child/teen and receiving less family social support as a child. Next might come current family variables such as PARENT’S YOUTH, father’s drinking, and family’s living in a community that is IMPOVERISHED and/or has a LOWER PERCENTAGE OF TWO PARENT FAMILIES. More proximal variables that increase the probability of parents, especially mothers, employing severe or abusive physical tactics could include mothers’ DYSPHORIA (e.g., unhappiness, emotional distress, anxiety, loneliness and isolation, depression, somatic complaints, interpersonal problems, feelings of incompetence as a parent, a tendency toward becoming upset and angry), and STRESS (more stressful life events, including parenting and other family stresses) and coping (most likely a protective factor, including problem solving and social support). Finally, risk factors that are proximal to abuse could include mothers’ high reactivity (impulsivity, high negative affect and autonomic nervous system arousal), high-risk parenting (harsh discipline strategies, verbal aggression, yelling), and negative attributions, and children’s behavior problems (e.g., socialized aggression, attention deficits, and internalizing and externalizing problems).

  560. Didn’t Warren Jeffs order all books other than the Bible and BOM to be removed from FLDS homes?

    Seeing as keeping the flock ignorant of the world by denying them access to literature and current events, I don’t see the FLDS thugs welcoming a public library into their midst.

  561. I think you’re right Anon E Mouse — which makes it all the more important that one be available to those with a thirst for knowledge, broader horizons or just for a good fantasy. Nothing will make a difference like good books available to all. 😉

  562. Seems like getting rid of all books would rob people of the ability to read and write.

  563. Please continue on General Discussion #46

    – Thanks, Admin

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