General Discussion #44

Continued from General Discussion #43


~ by FLDS TEXAS on December 19, 2010.

556 Responses to “General Discussion #44”

  1. Itchy:

    “Would legalization create a schism in the LDS church, or are they so against it at this point that they wouldn’t budge?”

    Good question. My bet is no, but a plethora of breakoffs would likely occur at a rate unseen before.

  2. It’ll never happen in the US, and I dont think it will in Canada either..

  3. It’s so damn wrong to allow this bunch to keep women and children as ignorant gits and then be able to take advantage in courts over having already taken advantage. Why can’t polygamist mothers be taught to and allowed to mother? Even animals are better.

  4. what objective evidence exists in the published literature which supports the notion that decriminalization of polygamy would lead to an increased likelihood of reporting abuse ? I don’t see any published data which supports that.

  5. In response to Rebeckah – I understand your concerns. There are two modern, industrialized Moslem countries which grant women rights and they also offer legalized polygyny as a marriage option for men – Indonesia and Malaysia. In these countries, women are educated, permitted to work outside the home, they drive, hold jobs, and even hold public office. Polygyny is legal in these countries ONLY if the polygamous marriage meets certain criteria which have been established by the government as safeguards – here are the criteria for polygamous marriage in these countries :

    1) No underage brides or grooms are permitted. A man may have a maximum of 4 wives.
    2) Coercion is NOT tolerated and will result in criminal charges.
    3) the prospective polygamous first wife (or senior wives) must give her (or their) consent(s) to her (or their) husband’s second (or any subsequent) marriage(s) – in the event that a man engages in polygamy without consent of the senior wife (or wives), this is a criminal act.
    4) to guarantee that the first (or senior) wife (or wives) are not coerced, each prospective polygamous spouse is interviewed and provided pre – marital counseling in private in advance of the polygamous marriage by a panel of experts presided over by a judge. They are warned that polygamous marriage is associated with a higher divorce rate and lower marital satisfaction for women than monogamous marriage is, and they are reminded that it is difficult for a man to be fair and equitable with all the wives.
    5) A man may not ask the senior wife to go to work to support the junior wife, nor may he diminish her financial support in any way.
    Junior wives who do not work may not be compelled to work to support the senior wife.
    6)Equitable Assets must be furnished – If wife #1 has a 250,000 dollar home and a Mercedes, wife #2 must have a 250,000 dollar home and a Mercedes. Each wife is entitled to her own home and her own method of transportation of similar value. A man must PROVE to the court that he has the financial ability to provide equitable assets to all wives without making either wife work or polygamy is not permitted. Documentation of financial assets and income is required by the court from the potential polygamous husband.

    Despite the safeguards listed above, the divorce rate in polygynous marriages with 2 wives is 75% and the divorce rate in marriages with 4 wives is > 90%. Physical abuse was reported in 50% of polygamous marriages in Malaysia, and 60% of polygamous senior wives reported that their husband required them to go to work and leave their children with a babysitter due to economic hardship.
    In 2007, only 89 permits for polygamous marriage were given in Indonesia, yet 917 divorces were permitted by the courts in Indonesia primarily due to women’s dissatisfaction with their polygamous marriages. Many women file for divorce in Indonesia when their husband’s mention their potential interest in polygyny.
    Despite many safeguards, polygamy doesn’t seem to work in Indonesia or Malaysia – and I don’t think legalization would work here either.

  6. Another interesting fact about polygyny in Islam – in every country where Islamic polygyny is practiced, it has been found that more educated men and women are described to have the lowest rates of polygamous marriage. I would suggest that the education “cure” is part of the answer to religious polygyny, but I agree that simply imposing an educational mandate from outside the group is not as likely to be as effective as it would be if some enlightened leader within the FLDS organization asserted an educational mandate. I think we all would like some enlightened leader to emerge within the FLDS who would champion free choice in marriage,education and / or profession, but I don’t pretend to know who that enlightened individual might be….the best man for that job may very well be a WOMAN, but I don’t think the group would accept that…

  7. “…the best man for that job may very well be a WOMAN…”
    YES!… especially with regard to managing the education of their youth.
    “… but I don’t think the group would accept that…”
    Certainly (at this point) the shepherded men won’t. Perhaps surprising to some, there are many strong women with management / leadership capabilities. They just don’t have enough wiggle room nor support to exercise them.

  8. Refreshing!

  9. East Texas said : Perhaps surprising to some, there are many strong women with management / leadership capabilities.

    I’m not surprised. When the majority of women only have a fraction of a man to support them, they develop their inner strength. Dr. Janet Bennion describes this in several of her books on fundamentalist Mormon women, namely “Women of Principle” about the AUB in Montana and “Desert Patriarchy” about fundamentalist Mormon women in Chihuahua, Mexico

  10. Another point which I neglected to mention about legalized polygyny in Malaysia and Indonesia – many men who want to engage in polygyny choose to avoid the scrutiny of the government’s polygamous marriage requirements – they arrange their secondary “marriages” in other countries or they don’t have a legal ceremony at all for their secondary marriages – in fact, there are more illicit, non – sanctioned polygamous marriages than there are legal polygamous marriages. When government officials in Malaysia and Indonesia learn of these illicit marriages, a fine and disciplinary action is imposed on the man. So I don’t think that legalization of polygyny is the answer either.

  11. Awesome discussion!

    From my ignorant and uneducated perspective there is a difference between decriminalizing polygamy and having a law on the books that is not enforced. With the law on the books, there is still the chance of prosecution which is interpreted by those in polygamous relationships as persecution for religion. The raids over polygamy are not yet forgotten, and this leads to a closed society (or at least the leader to claim the need for secretive society to avoid persecution). If polygamy were decriminalized, there would be no need for this secrecy over polygamy itself. The leaders of these groups use the fear of persecution to keep members quite and to justify the need for secrecy. Decriminalization would weaken the leadership because one of their reasons for a closed society would be gone.

    From what I have seen in my short life, the real problems have occurred because of a lack of an open society. Closed societies are perfect for those who want to abuse position and power, remove the need for a closed society and you weaken the ability of power abusers because the people would be less inclined to be secretive. Finally, remove the religious polygamy part of the equation, and prosecutors can go after other problems (underage, fraud, etc) without having to worry about “freedom of religion” being drug into the case.

    Will polygamy increase if this happens? Perhaps. But the abuses of power will go down, and in my mind that is the bigger problem. And yes, unles the LDS revoke section 132, they will have a real problem on their hands if polygamy became decriminalized.


  12. Legalize it, decriminalize it, keep it a felony… it won’t make a damn bit of difference to the ongoing practice of fundamentalist mormon polygamy. Most will find their way around the roadblocks even if some are imprisoned for the rest of their lives. More laws won’t break the blister. Prison is only a little pinprick.

    We just HAVE to find a way to safely extract the innocents out of the fester.

  13. Well said, iitmoc.


  14. iitmoc,

    I like what you say about the secrecy because of polygamy being a criminalized practice. I truly thought the same for a long time. But over time I’ve come to believe and I have to say, that though it is currently (and in the past) expedient to use it as an excuse for secrecy and isolation, I’ll bet my bottom dollar there would be something – a revelation? – something that will come from corrupt leadership to continue the secrecy and isolation.

    Truthfully, it wouldn’t hurt my feelings if it were decriminalized… even as an experiment. It hardly matters one way or the other – at least as far as mormon polygamy goes. But I really don’t think it would weaken the leadership enough to end all the abuse.

    I can’t even address the aspects of muslim-based polygamy. S is and has been doing a super job of that. It certainly DOES have to be considered as far as changing the law. I haven’t tried to get my arms around that – yet – even though it’s a major problem for many countries.

    Thanks so much, for your inputs, iitmoc!

  15. I really believe that if Utah and Arizona went hard against the other legal issues associated with polygamy that the more abusive leaders would be circumscribed. Ignore polygamy, but come down like a ton of bricks on child sex, domestic abuse, welfare fraud, child labor, safety violations in the work place, other labor law violations, extortion, RICO, Mann Act, etc. It seems to me that the reverse is true; even in situations where the abused ask for justice, the perps get only a symbolic punishment, if that. If the victims believed they really had redress, I believe they would be more likely to come forward and it would begin to crack open this big knot of lies and secrecy.

  16. No matter what they do with the law, religious polygyny will continue. Even if the practice was decriminalized, there would be some “other compelling reason” that a secretive and closed society would be necessary as per FLDS leadership. That is just how the FLDS operates under their current leadership. I don’t see the government going after the AUB,(except in the matter of Virginia Hill – this case has nothing to do with polygamy) and the AUB are open about their practice of polygyny, and are living polygynously quite openly in general society rather than living on a compound. Interesting data on the AUB, taken from their own statistics – 40% of polygamous marriages in their group dissolve within the first year, and 60% of their children leave the group – probably because they are educated, have control over their own finances, have contact with general society, and have alternatives open to them.

  17. If anyone saw the interview with new FLDS spokesman Bill Shapley, well he came right out and said they marry the girls when they are ready to be married and not by some law.

    So, no, legalizing it obviously isnt going to stop that train of thought.

    I guess Bill thinks its ok to marry girls when:

    1. They are within a year or two of starting menses – wouldnt want to miss those first fruits!

    2. Have an awesome 8th grade homeschool diploma.

    3. Keep sweet like no other!

    4. Know better than to talk back.

    5. Etc etc etc, Wot the hell they are children, do they breathe!?


    Shapely ought to be in prison for his crimes. But he committed them in incompetent incognito decriminilized plyyger ville Utah and Zonnieville.

    Cant wait for his next news conference for more insights!


  19. S No matter what they do with the law, religious polygyny will continue. Even if the practice was decriminalized, there would be some “other compelling reason” that a secretive and closed society would be necessary as per FLDS leadership.


    Yes, because it’s not just about polygyny it’s about power, specifically the power dynamics of a cult. They need to maintain the Us vs Them mentality. Warren Jeffs, Jim Jones, David Koresh – this is how they maintained power over their followers, by isolating them from the rest of society, by instilling fear of society, then using that fear and isolation to manipulate their followers.

    Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely – all these men are/were corrupt.

  20. Perhaps I am terribly naive. Someone! Please tell me what the hell is the difference between “intercourse” and “sex between the thighs. (thighing)!”???

    Am I disgusted????
    YOU BET!!!

  21. iitmoc, as has been mentioned before, polygamy is essentially decriminalized already. The fact is that the “closed” society is not because of persecution from the outside world but because of fear of contamination of that outside world. A formal decriminalization (which isn’t going to happen) isn’t going to open up the fundamentalist polygamous world any more than it already is because the leaders NEED the people isolated to control them.

  22. The FLDS have said in BC they dont want it legalized.

    Why, that would take away their persecution complex.

    Oh, and BTW, they would still be breaking laws, now wouldnt that make them look bad, give them a favor and they still dont give a crap for laws.

    No, they would still break any and all laws that they felt like that day.

    They do what they think God tells them to do or what the little man in their pants tells them to do.

  23. I agree with ETexas, decriminalizing it won’t make the problems of the FLDS rank and file go away, the leaders will just come up with a new strategy to keep their thumb on them.

  24. if utah and arizona would crack down on the various laws broken by the FLDS on a daily basis, they would have fewer problems in dealing with the UEP trust and getting the property back to the people. give willie and the others something to spend attorneys fees on besides fighting over the trust.

    and on that note, why is it that rod parker, who caused the entire uep mess to begin with, is now able to profit from trying to reclaim it for the flds leadership? that is total and complete BS. utah and arizona need to grow some b@lls and enforce the laws on their books.

  25. It is interesting that the first Moslem polygamous wife I met over 15 yrs ago was also very secretive about her husband’s polygamy. She was over the age of 30, an immigrant and naturalized American citizen, a physical therapist with a Master’s Degree, and she had been happily married (or so she thought) for over 7 yrs. Her husband went on a trip to Pakistan to visit his family, and he came back “married” (religiously, not legally) to a second 17 yr old wife who was also his cousin. When she learned of her husband’s second marriage, she informed others that she was seeking a divorce because her husband had cheated on her while on a trip overseas. She told me in the privacy of the office setting about her husband’s polygamy. When I asked her why she had lied to others regarding her husband’s polygamy, she replied that polygamy was often considered shameful for Islamic first wives as they were often the subject of gossip and ridicule – comments are frequently made about the first wives being unattractive, unintelligent, or mean spirited – and these attributes are said to have fueled their husband’s desire for another wife. So secrecy regarding polygamy and reluctance to make reports to authorities is not always fueled by a fear of prosecution for polygamy. What I do know is that a woman came to my office crying and feeling like a victim – but by the time she left, I had informed her that polygamy is illegal in the US – something she was not aware of – and she was thereafter empowered legally to get everything she desired in her divorce action, including sole custody of her son and her home, by essentially threatening her ex – husband with a charge of illegal bigamy. She could have ended up paying this man alimony, as her income was substantially greater than her ex – husband’s income. That was not the case due to anti – bigamy laws.

  26. That muslim video of the depravity is a witness to Khomenie – well, wouldnt you know it, Islam is chock o block full of pervs too.

    I swear, what is it with some people, you give them a religious book and some power and it goes to their little head in their pants.

  27. It would be hard to enforce the MANN act with them. Once a couple got busted, they would simply start moving the girls families to the other state long enough for the girls to establish residency before the so called “marriage”.

    Besides, the state line is already blurred in Short Creek to the point where the two towns share the same schools, zip code, fire/police, etc.

  28. Betty, your 3:58 comment is right on–ignore any religious aspect and go after other laws that are being broken. However, universally go after these law breakers, not just polygamists.

    To those who do not think that decriminalizing polygamy will make any difference, I respectfully disagree. Having lived in this my whole life, I have a basic understanding of what makes things happen. Will it cause the collapse of the leadership–absolutely not. However, it will remove a major point that is pounded into the people–that there are laws specifically targeting us as a religion, and therefore a reason for secrecy. I do not see the downside of decriminalization because abuse is abuse whether in a monogamous or polygamous family. Go after the abuse, but get the religion out of the way.

    Final thought: another way to weaken the group is to dry up funding. I think welfare law should require the father of any child to be listed–married or not. If a women claims to be single, yet keeps having children by the same man they should lose that single status. State and Fed should also go after the man of any women who claims to be single and needs assistance and require them to pay a portion of the welfare. There are all too many men who father children, polygamous or not, who are not held responsible for taking care of them.


  29. I think that current anti bigamy laws should be used solely for cases of coercive religious bigamy – like the case of Rachael Strong – in any religious group.

  30. Is it true that the english word for “FLDS prophet” is “dingleberry”? I’m pretty sure it’s the same translation for khomeni

  31. Nunavut Nate,

    There are other cases of crossing state lines other than in the creek. There’s multiple settlements in Colorado, for instance, and those who were sent to Canada and Texas. I really don’t see what residency has to do with the purpose of crossing state lines, nor how an illegal/nonexistent marriage negates the Mann act. If that were the case, every pimp who has ever moved a set of girls around would “marry” them first!

  32. Anon at 7:23 – I agree on the welfare law idea. Those laws are the case in some states already. I don’t understand why the citizens of Utah and Arizona do not demand such changes in law. I know I do not appreciate paying for the deliberate baby machines, whether they are in a ghetto or in a million dollar house in Utah.

  33. Khomeini is a last name based on the town Khomein. It is not a title or a descriptive name.

  34. I wonder if there are folks out there who’ve forgotten that only one vote at Texas’ Supreme Court sent the FLDS children home. One. It was that close.

  35. O well maybe it’s the other way about naming dingleberries “khomeni”.

  36. nate, they don’t necessarily need to enforce the mann act at the crick, if they’d only enforce the laws on the books. there are mann act violations with all the marriages that took place in caliente, nevada. warren married veda and another underage girl in colorado.

  37. Ayatollah, however, is a title and it denotes rank within the religion, like a bishop who is over other bishops. It literally means “sign of God”, from a quote in the Quran that says that the existence of some people is, of itself, a sign from God. The Ayatollay Uzma is the “Great Sign of God”. They are allowed to issue fatwas, religious interpretations to those under their religious control, and this title indicates the head of the whole sect, the Persian Shi’ah. I think that makes the title close to “prophet”; if that’s what you are trying to say, then that’s a reasonable analogy. I can’t address “dingleberry”. Is that anything like “doodiehat”? I have trouble with these technical terms.

  38. That’s “Ayatollay Uzma”. Spelling mishap.

  39. ayatollah testing

  40. OK, it’s me. Spelled it wrong twice. Time to go to bed. G’Night.

  41. O lordy Betty you haven’t about caught up with what I’ve learned in the past 30 some years but carry on, won’t you.

  42. Warren Jeffs is nothing less than Hitler reinvented, period.

  43. Warren Jeffs reportedly studied Mein Kampf prior to beginning his rein of terror.

  44. sorry for the typo, it’s late, above should read : Warren Jeffs reportedly studied Mein Kampf prior to beginning his reign of terror.

  45. Ya know, and I laugh heartily as I say this, but I almost miss duane and his over the top hystrionics!! I keep waiting for him to pop in and scream that WE are trying to KILL THEM, to STARVE poooor families with children, to PROHIBIT their freedom of religion, by enforcing laws directed at curtailing their RIGHT to &^%$ little girls and commit welfare fraud.

  46. I don’t miss Duane. His posts are predictable and devoid of intellectual content. I suggest continuing to press the ban button when he attempts to post here.

  47. Merry Christmas Warren!

    What, no attorney yet?

    They tired of losing these child molesting cases? This is how everyone remembers you, bumbling along in prison garb and chained hand and feet.

  48. I thought ole liar deci duane had been banned from this site. His carp posts were funny sometimes. Is it true that he was outed when deb lee was outed.

  49. Yes Ale Wife, you can find Duane on Cupcake’s Facebook page.

  50. I think that the banner on the top of this blog should be changed from the black and white photo of Warren Jeffs to the picture with him in the orange jumpsuit in cuffs. Seems more appropriate.

  51. The problem with banning people is that they can just change their IP addresses or login name or both and get in under the wire; that is, until we all recognize them and they get banned again.

  52. Attila, if you know so much then maybe you could find words that work better than dingleberry at instructing the rest of us. Just saying.

  53. S, the Priesthood Council/Council of Friends started studying how the Germans controlled the masses long before Warren came on the scene. Joseph Musser was intrigued by Hitler and started reading his work after WW II. These fundie Mormon leaders have been trying to figure out how to manipulate their followers for decades.

  54. If you ban people from this site or let the moderator just post those things she thinks is important, then this site is useless and is just a social club and nothing more. Might as well be on facebook. Nothing that could be said on this site is as bad as what happens to these little girls-nothing.

  55. Dennis, obviously you have not seen Duane’s posts before – if you had, you would not have made that comment.

  56. This will just help reinforce to the Mormon Fundies that the LDS church is in apostasy.

    Church removes racial references in Book of Mormon headings

    By Peggy Fletcher Stack

    The Salt Lake Tribune
    Published Dec 18, 2010 08:14PM
    Updated 1 minute ago Updated Dec 17, 2010 09:33PM

    The LDS Church has made subtle — but significant — changes to chapter headings in its online version of the faith’s signature scripture, The Book of Mormon, toning down some earlier racial allusions.

    The words “skin of blackness” were removed from the introductory italicized summary in 2 Nephi, Chapter 5, in describing the “curse” God put on disbelieving Lamanites.

    Deeper into the volume, in Mormon, Chapter 5, the heading changes from calling Lamanites “a dark, filthy, and loathsome people” to “because of their unbelief, the Lamanites will be scattered, and the Spirit will cease to strive with them.”

    In both cases, the text itself remains unchanged.

  57. Anonymous December 20, 2010 at 10:12 AM – I am not at all surprised that the FLDS leadership has studied Hitler for quite some time preceding Warren Jeffs. It is really shameful that a group which calls itself Christian behaves as their leadership does.

  58. Denis,

    The things that warrant removal and/or banning are:
    recommendations of violence or genocide, repeated personal attacks/stalking and cyberthreats, hate speech such as racism or anti-Semitism, links to malware (duane), links to sexually explicit sites (duane), threats of lawsuits. What happens first is that the comment itself is removed. Then there are warnings of banning and there there is actual banning. Although no group of people is perfect, the folks who run this site have been pretty consistent and mostly fair.

  59. S,

    I think it’s really terrible that any group that calls itself spiritual in any sense, not just Christian, wants to control it’s members to such a degree. Any spiritual path should be based on free choice, or the individual has not made any progress. Obedience based on fear, coercion or bribes is not a choice that improves anyone’s growth.

  60. Since the FLDS don’t celebrate Christmas, they will be available to visit Warren on Saturday during his visitation time. Wonder which 5 will go and even more of a burning question, has Naomie found a place to stay in Big Lake so she can be close by.

    I’m thinking about making a run out to the ranch and ringing the bell. I’d like to ask Bill Shapley how his daughter Candi is doing.

  61. Thanks for your valuable opinion Betty.

    I still think dingleberry is suitable.

  62. Ring that bell, Anon 11:51 am. We all would be interested in what Bill has to say, however, I don’t think he is the progressive type of leader / spokesperson whom we would like to have in charge.

    Betty, you hit the nail on the head – you’ve defined what differentiates a cult from true spirituality.
    Here is an interesting piece by Michael Langone, PhD, a clinical psychologist whose primary interest is in the treatment of former cult members. Take a look at his list on the characteristics of cultic groups and you can see that the current FLDS organization meets most if not all criteria for a cultic group.

  63. Is anyone giving updates on what is happening in Texas -like who is visiting Warren, what is going on with YFZ and anybody keeping track of the population growth of the ranch? If they are truly shuffling little girls around, it would be good to know what is going on at the ranch?

  64. DJ I’m wondering how someone, anyone, would, could keep up with that kind of stuff. Ever been out in west Texas? This reminds me of those folks who thought it possible to patrol the perimeters of 7 square miles. When they figure that one out we can control the US – Mexico border.

  65. DJ, we would like to believe that CPS is involved in ongoing monitoring of the young girls at YFZ to make sure that underage marriages are not taking place and that across border trafficking is not taking place. We are not privy to their reports.

  66. Well, I was watching to video of K dee Ignatian at the YFZ cemetery and I was curious-how many people are buried there? I mean this is a relatively new ranch how many bodies could there be for goodness sake?

  67. Thank you to anon. at 8:44 am. Good to see who duane really is. The ole liar deci duane was banned from this site and many other sites for behavior, not for what he posted. No administrator should put up with posters who post URLs for malware and for hate group sites. IMO, good riddance to him.

  68. I meant that usually the news media had reporters letting us know what is going on there in TX. Haven’t heard nothing of late about nothing.

  69. This just in from UTAH

  70. DJ there is just no news media out in places like that. Not even enough southern baptist gossips with night glasses and hearing aids and a bucket of sweet icetea that would want to park out at the side of some dusty back road in the ‘lupicup (blue pickup) during hunting season miles and miles and miles and miles from *anything*.

  71. So did KDee actually get to visit the cemetery? I need a link to the video please.

    Also, CPS isn’t monitoring the children at the YFZ. They have no authority unless another report is made. Wonder if the injury of the 14 year old boy was reported to CPS.

  72. Might be interesting to sit outside the Reagan County jail on Wednesday afternoon, depending on what time the arraignment finished up.

  73. 1) answer to your first question – no
    2) answer to your second question – in progress

  74. by all means go to the courthouse, anon 8:48 pm

  75. oh i will be at the courthouse, i’m just trying to find someone to be in big lake.

  76. anyone up for a visit to Warren outside the jail ?

  77. Shortest day of the year coming up.

  78. Plus a super rare Winter Solstice lunar eclipse. Starts 1:30’ish EST. I wont see it here..SoCal….pouring rain!

  79. I’ll be checking out that rare eclipse. The wiki entry says,

    ” It will be the first total lunar eclipse to occur on the day of the Northern Winter Solstice (Southern Summer Solstice) since 1638, and only the second in the Common Era.” which means since the death of Christ (AD).

  80. The Theocracy of Utah has given their pet polygamist off to Texas to play out his shaheedi routine.

  81. Might be interesting to sit outside the Reagan County jail on Wednesday afternoon, depending on what time the arraignment finished up.


    I wish I lived close enough to go. I would hold up a big sign saying “Pedophilia is Not a Religion”

  82. It’s getting dark out

  83. Well, I went out to look at the eclipse and all I got was WET! It’s raining really hard here. Guess I’ll wait for the next one. So, off to bed.

  84. Cloudy with snow falling here in the midwest so we did not get a chance to see the eclipse.

  85. The Theocracy of Utah has given their pet polygamist off to Texas to play out his shaheedi routine.

    GrannyToad said this on December 21, 2010 at 1:01 AM

    Interesting analogy there – except Warren is not as brave as the average shaheedi

  86. Mostly clear with a few thin clouds which made for seeing that spooky orangey moon’s totality a satisfying look up in the middle of the night. I love eclipses – so much more celestial than polygamy.

  87. I went out and looked twice, myself. I’m in Virginia. It looked like a cookie with a bite out of it.

  88. I wonder if there are folks out there who’ve forgotten that only one vote at Texas’ Supreme Court sent the FLDS children home. One. It was that close.
    Actually my friend the vote was 6 to 3.

  89. I’m flattered and surprised that you’d wish to be my friend, al.

    Were you thinking of the 3 in whose opinion that the children should have been differentiated by sex so that girls anywhere near the age FLDS men take for sex NOT be returned, whereas males could be?

  90. Actually no Alin, there were 3 who voiced dissenting opinions, but that doesn’t mean only 3 dissented. There was a 4th who dissented but chose not to join the dissenting brief.

  91. Al must be bored now that Bill’s blog has been suspended. He could always go play on that other Pharsaical blog with the rating > 1 million if he is bored.

  92. Raymond filed his next Motion for Extension of Time in his Appeal. One would think he doesn’t seem to want to file the actual brief and let the court rule on it. What’s up with that.

  93. I heard a rumor there was another marriage over the weekend at the YFZ? The blushing bride was 16. Anybody know anything bout that?

  94. Not me. I must not have gotten an invite.

  95. Were you thinking of the 3 in whose opinion that the children should have been differentiated by sex so that girls anywhere near the age FLDS men take for sex NOT be returned, whereas males could be?
    Yeah. Other then that it was unanimous.

  96. Other than being a 5 to 4 vote, it was unanimous? ROFLMAO. Classic Alinusara speak.

  97. Ditto. I am not one of the first people The Ranch calls when they are scheduling an event.

  98. you’d think they’d at least call me, i mean after all i am their events coordinator. bill must not have gotten the memo.

    just curious how you heard about it martyr.

  99. One. Can you try to remember that, Al?

  100. Uninformed alin is being as obtuse as ole liar duane is.

  101. Does it seem like there are more Anonymouses posting these days? And that some of them are revealing info that only FLDS insiders would know?

    I hope this means that more FLDS members are realizing that there is a world out there beyond their constrictive community, that this world is full of good people who have their best interests at heart, that they don’t need the permission of any human being to have a relationship with God, and that knowledge is freedom.

    On Christmas Eve my family will be enjoying a candlelit church service, with the singing of sweet carols, remembering the birthday of a man who changed the world with a message of peace, love, and putting the needs of others first . . . not a message of personal gain, subjugation, rejection, and destruction.

  102. Were you thinking of the 3 in whose opinion that the children should have been differentiated by sex so that girls anywhere near the age FLDS men take for sex NOT be returned, whereas males could be?

    GrannyToad said this on December 21, 2010 at 9:57 AM

    I guess that differentiation would have meant the girls whose ages were still in the single digits.

  103. Alinusara10 my friend,
    Season’s Greetings and Happy Holidays.

    Love Fred

  104. Merry xmas fred

  105. A YFZ bride at 16, wouldn’t that require the state requisites down at the county courthouse of no other spouse, parental approval, ID, and all that?

    If it’s not on record then NO MARRIAGE occurred. Is that FLDS mouthpiece wanting to make a point so he and whomever can join the others in Texas penitentiary?

  106. Yes, Anon E Mouse, it seems that way to me.

    I had a big party last weekend, with family and friends from out of town, plus neighbors and local friends. I smoked a turkey and a pork loin. There was music, alcohol (but no serious drunkeness), sweets, etc. We had a bon fire even though it was quite cold.

    Xmas Eve, I’m going to a friend’s house for a visit.

    For Xmas Day, we go over to a step daughter’s house for brunch.

    We had thought about visiting my favorite living uncle (who is pushing 90 years old) in Alexandria. But it’s calling for snow, and I fell on the ice a few days ago and busted my tail bone. I’m not sure I want to make the trip up 95 under those conditions, may have to reschedule.

    We have no kids at home any more, so there will be no big dinner on the actual day. We are not active in any organized religion. I used to go to the Catholic Cathedral for Xmas Eve mass because their music was the best, but I have not done that in several years. I am sort of looking forward to the possibility of being snowed into the house with leftovers from the party, lots of firewood, a well stocked wine closet and my very own husband.

  107. You remember all those people (like spinazi) who used to argue that no one should bother the FLDS cause more and more American teens are having babies, younger and younger? Well, check this out; facts are stubborn things. The lowest rate in almost 70 years!

  108. Also note that the rate has declined for 16 out of the last 18 years.

  109. Hey Betty, what has the rate done over just the past 4 years since Warren has been incarcerated. That must have had some impact!

  110. Anon, somehow I don’t think the FLDS is filling out it’s census forms properly or going through normal medical treatment systems. So, they probably don’t register in those numbers.

  111. Everyone knows that 95% of all statistics are made up

  112. riiiiiiiight omar. To some folks they’re a way to lie, to others a way to accept lies. That’s different. Not part of a world built upon necessary deceit.

    To me they’re part of scientific inquiry. Necessary.

    A Good example of that first was that twit who “interviewed” some DESIGNATED canadian polygamist women who’d say how happy they were, who then denigrated real scientific interviews/inquiries that didn’t suit the scene they wanted played out — because the latter were performed with integrity.

  113. not-not part, but yes, Part of.

  114. Hm. Have any FLDS registered any births deaths or marriages in Texas yet?

  115. We need to get k.D. on that birth and death records -that is one of the most important things on this whole blog. How can we have any intelligent discussion at all without someone keeping an eye on birth and death records?

  116. Lotta counties. It’s not only Schleicher.

  117. Everyone knows that 95% of all statistics are made up

    Omar Souleyman said this on December 21, 2010 at 6:48 PM

    I take it that you don’t have a degree in the sciences.

  118. Birth and death certificates are sealed for 75 years to general public.

  119. Dang. I wish I had a “like” button!

  120. That’s it in Texas now, eh? What about births? Deaths are available everywhere online.

  121. Not all states are the same. This past decade there have been many changes.

  122. Marriages are still public records, aren’t they?

  123. Nah, I think you can still research births and deaths AND marriages in Texas. And divorces. And cemeteries. It’s certificates, documentation, that aren’t as easy to get.

    Just ask old genealogy researchers.

  124. Birth records aren’t public information. You can get them if you “need to know”

  125. ah, but I do, S. We learned time and time again that stats can be easily manipulated to prove anything, especially if those collecting and/or presenting the data have an agenda, such as political parties or news magazines. I spent years mapping trends in census data. Census data IS ethically collected, but is wildly inaccurate due to large groups of people who don’t fill them out, such as the homeless, illegal immigrants, polygamists and countless other groups who are weary of providing the govt. with personal information. I obviously made up the 95% number to illustrate this point. Good science is hard to come by these days, but don’t take my word for it, look it up yourself. Ill get you started:

  126. If you’d like I could show some nowhere near the age you claim. But don’t let that worry you. I’d rather you follow what you think are “rules”.

  127. Omar can I help you with tax records?

  128. I have covenanter presbyterian scots ancestors who left northern Ireland around 300 years ago because they weren’t allowed to legally register births marriages and deaths. But the English or in some cases Irish sure did collect taxes and rents. Taxes even on windows, looms, spinning wheels and of course head taxes for grown males. Sometimes we can find remnants of those to use as primary documentation.

    For our uses and purposes out here in Texas not everything even needs to be primary.

  129. Omar my friend, your article is not from a peer reviewed journal.
    I could care less what it says or what you think.

  130. Y’know, Omar those of us who recognize fallacies and find truth tables simple, and have chosen sciences aren’t so easily nicked by lies, liars and statistics.

    Sometimes it happens. For a while. Good luck fleecing your flock, but I hope we get ’em first and turn the light on.

  131. Omar said : I obviously made up the 95% number to illustrate this point.

    Yes you did Omar.

  132. Oldie, but a goodie. Colorado City is strange, to say the least.

  133. Mark, take a hike. Take your other troll pseudonyms with you.

  134. Mark, if ya don’t like it here, feel free to move along…or…better yet… do you own legwork and get your answers.
    By the way, I have a great apple turnover recipe….:)

  135. Back to shenandoah river’s YouTube entry. I thought ALL of the CC cops had been decertified and sent packing. I didn’t sse or hear a date on the clip. Was it recent or was that the one from earlier in the year?

  136. The video was uploaded to Youtube in January of 2009. Who knows when the newscast was from; clearly before that.

  137. I’m really getting good at turkey cupcakes.

  138. Those CC folks are really from another planet, have NO idea what it’s like on this one, the USA. Constitutional and Civil Rights aren’t any part of their game.

  139. Got a great recipe Christmas cookies.

  140. Nancy, why not share your recipe with your alter ego, Mark ?

  141. mc1199, this YouTube video is from December 2008 when the Hainlines were first being mistreated by the Colorado City officials and the CC police (sadly it has continued well into 2010).

    There is a news article associated with this maltreatment by ABC 4 TV in Salt Lake City, Utah. Here is a link to that news report –

    If you want to see the YouTube video that Brent Hunsaker with ABC 4 TV in SLC did on this story it can be found on this web page about 1/2 way down.

    Sadly, a year and 1/2 later, the Hainlines were still being abused by the Colorado City Police Officers. And their abuse may still be continuing to date.

    I hope that puts the video into a date perspective for your reference.

  142. For a more accurate date, the original article by Brent Hunsaker was made on December 2, 2008

    UPDATE: Vandalism follows ABC 4’s story about harrassment in Colorado City
    Reported by: Brent Hunsaker
    ABC 4 News
    Originally broadcast December 2, 2008

    1 1/2 years after their first reported assault by the CCPD, the Hainlines’ abuse still continued … well into 2010 when Jonathan Roundy physically beat up Genevive Hainline.

    Some people call cops PIGS for a reason. FLDS cops are indeed PIGS.

    EXCLUSIVE: Couple claims arrest was religious persecution as Colorado City tensions rise
    Reported by: Brent Hunsaker
    ABC 4 News
    Originally broadcast July 21, 2010

  143. Wasn’t this the couple whose children were left alone at home without an adult? The place where Willie the Thug had craters dug all over their yard then billed them for it?

  144. Please note that Brent Hunsaker did not call the Colorado Police PIGS, I did. Brent Hunsaker is too much of a gentleman to call them that. It was my interspersed comments that may have brought some confusion to my earlier posting. I should have used HTML coding to distinguish between the two – his comments and my thoughts. Sorry for any confusion.

  145. Granny, I think you are mixing up two different recent FLDS cop abuses. Jon and Ginger Cooke had their entire yard dug up by Willie the Thug. The Cooke’s were accused of stealing water (that had never been connected because the FLDS refused them service) and Willie the Thug had one his companies dig up (with a back hoe) their non-existant water line and then had the balls to bill the Cookes for the work (when it actually destroyed their yard).

    Matt and Genevive Stubbs were arrested and their children were left home alone overnight in absolute fear (and trauma after witnessing how the local FLDS cops manhandled their parents) and without food, care or proper supervision after Johnathan Roundy had them carted off to jail for trespassing on their OWN PROPERTY.

    Ya just gotta love those Hildale and Colorado City cops. What scum of the earth they are!

  146. Those aren’t cops up there on the crik those are hired thugs. Thugs and thieves that is what their entire human infrastructure consists of.

  147. That’s why I’d questioned, anony. So many acts against humanity I mixed up several. It’s hard to believe that such throwbacks exist in this country, 21st century. That nest needs purged.

  148. I need to clarify, for those who don’t know, that my post above referencing Matt and Genevieve Stubbs, they are known as the Hainline family. It is Matt and Genevieve (Stubbs) Hainline. Sorry for any confusion. They are a great family! And I wish them the BEST!

  149. Can I coin a new phrase without totally offending everybody? If so, my new phrase would be “polygamous trailer trash”.

    If you are from the South, you’ll know what I mean. If not, then maybe I generated some curiosity to try to understand what I mean.

    My phrase is meant to invoke understanding and curiosity, but was not said to be cruel, ugly or hurtful.

  150. There was a new poster today named Mark. I just have to ask if he is Mark Timpson. Nuff said.

  151. To all the above Anon’s [presuming they are the same person], thanks for clearing that up. I’ve heard the stories of the attacks that occur, on a regular basis, againt the non-flds folks trying to make themselves a home there. That and refusal of services…water, etc. I was under the impression all the CC cops had finally been decertified and there was going to be some hope of impartiality, peace and quiet for awhile. Guess that’s not happening! Sad.

  152. Note to Dennis / Denise / Mark / Nancy / etc.

    Further comments like that will result in your posts being moderated.

  153. Omar presents a logical fallacy. He says that statistics are made up. Then he presents as “proof” a criticism of a news article that uses statistics out of context. Lack of context does not equal false. Yes, of course, people play with numbers, especially in the news and in politics, by presenting them without proper context or by comparing two different numbers as if they represented the same thing; for instance by comparing teen pregnancies from one year to teen births from another year. That does not mean that the numbers themselves are false. Critical thinking is still needed to analyze the numbers.

  154. mc1199, a handful of CC cops have been decertified by either Utah or Arizona POST (or both POSTs). POST is the Peace Officer Standards and Training council.

    But the FLDS keeps more cops waiting in the wings to fill the vacancies. They keep enrolling them in the Police Academy and as one is decertified, a new one comes on board.

    December 6th the Utah POST decertified Jesse L. Barlow of the Hildale City Police Department for lying on a POST application and lying under Garrity.

    Lying under Garrity means he was lying during an administrative interview or investigation.

  155. Say… whatever happened to the FLDS Truth Never Prevails site?
    After a rather prolific series of “publications,” if you can call it that, there is no activity since August
    hmmm, what’s up with that ?

  156. Here’s an interesting article written on subject of religion bringing out both the worst and best in religious belief. Article is based on statements of Dr. Wendy Ulrich and Dr. Dennis Charney.

    From article: “In the local press, some commentators compared Mitchell to Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, asserting that Smith also used claims of religious authority to victimize others.”

    Article comes to conclusion that the good in religion made it possible for Elizabeth Smart to survive polygamist Mitchell.

    Read article:

  157. Imagine that, Jesse Barlow lying during some sort of admin interview or investigation. When can Jonathan be decertified?

  158. Jonathan is long overdue for decertification

  159. Here’s an opinion piece from the Washington Post on subject of Elizabeth Smart, seems they were very impressed with her testimony in court:

    From article: “Elizabeth’s most powerful lesson–that leadership is ultimately about shifting the focus off of ourselves and onto our mission and the people we’re privileged to serve.”

    Now if Arizona & Utah would show some leadership and disband the “Short Creek” police dept, that would be an example of leadership.

  160. Why do we tolerate bigoted monsters like FLDS in the US? Creating their own states within our US borders with their own laws and law enforcement; refusing medical care, water, power, safety of their own homes, freedom to make a living, to non-FLDS right under our noses?

    There’s a reason SPLC lists them where they do, up with KKK.

    Texas doesn’t want ’em. Texas is prosecuting and imprisoning these criminals.

    Do Utah and Arizona protect their mormon fundamentalist criminals for a particular reason?

  161. It seems that a bill which supported the prevention of underage and coercive marriages has not been passed due to Republican opposition in Washington. What are your thoughts on this ?

  162. GT

    “Do Utah and Arizona protect their mormon fundamentalist criminals for a particular reason?”


    Yes, they are “Grandfathered in”, so to speak.

  163. We don’t Grandfather pedophiles in Texas.

  164. S pointed out “Incoming House Foreign Affairs chairwoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.) defeated a bill Dec. 16 that would have committed the United States to combating forced child marriages abroad. The episode – in which she invoked concerns about the legislation’s cost and that funds could be used to promote abortion – highlights the tough road that the Obama administration will face in advancing its women’s rights and foreign aid agenda during the next congressional session.”

    So ah, Republicans didn’t participate in making laws applicable outside USA. And?

    Was this a standalone or included porkly within something else?

    I’m trying to get your gist.

  165. Thanks anony, “grandfathering” was what I was getting at exactly. I learned this for myself back in the 80s. OTOH some LDS locals figured out who some of my ancestral kin were in which cases I was treated differently.

  166. I think we should oppose underage and coercive marriage everywhere-beginning in the usa-as well as overseas

  167. Happy joseph smith day to chemist

  168. Well S. Just as Texas does not and cannot make laws that are enforceable for other states like Utah and Arizona, are restricted to bidness in Texas, the US cannot make nor enforce laws outside the US.

    So I guess I still don’t get it. If the US could do that we could make some real changes in NK, Iran, Venezuela &c, but that’s not going to happen.

  169. It seems that a bill which supported the prevention of underage and coercive marriages has not been passed due to Republican opposition in Washington. What are your thoughts on this ?
    Sounded expensive. Liberals are fairly easy about spending other folks money.

  170. Thank you s for reminding me of Joseph Smith’s birthday (Dec. 23)

  171. I’m not a liberal,al

  172. S – in the US we already have enforceable laws in each of our 50 states. A couple states, one theocracy in particular, don’t bother since it would effectively be prosecuting Joe Smith and a whole lotta ancestors. Those 2 US states don’t even cause human rights or civil rights to be enforced, the US Constitution’s apparently no good there.

    Outside the US we don’t make their laws. They don’t make ours. I’ve heard it said we’re the last refuge of freedom. Some here in the US still don’t get their Rights because of living under that theocracy.

  173. Watching again, on Nat Geo. Inside Polygamy, Life in Bountiful, or however the title is exactly

  174. Do Utah and Arizona protect their mormon fundamentalist criminals for a particular reason?

    GrannyToad said this on December 23, 2010 at 1:20 AM

    ABSOLUTELY! They’re all Mormons in the eyes of God. Can you say “cut from the same cloth”?

  175. Jeremy Johnson, who was the rich guy in the Sons of Perdition documentary letting some of the boys live at his home (remember he kicked the boys out claiming they failed drug tests), is being investigated by the Federal Trade Commission for defrauding hundreds of thousands of people.

  176. This link has the actual FTC complaint against Jeremy Johnson.

  177. Here is an article in the Deseret News about Jeremy Johnson and the FTC complaint –

  178. Here is an article from the Salt Lake Tribune early this morning calling Jeremy an angel –

  179. What a shame the Jeremy gained his cash by corrupt means. Hope it does not adversely affect the children who live with him in any way.

  180. Then there is a later article in the Salt Lake Tribune this evening showing what a scammer Jeremy Johnson is –

  181. Nocturnal Anon, Jeremy kicked all of the “Lost Boys” out of his own house and won’t let anymore plig kids move in.

    He also closed the “House Just Off Bluff” where 8 of the boys were living and they became homeless again.

    Then he sold the “House Just Off Bluff” and financially benefited from the sweat equity labor (time and materials) the boys put into the house by completely remodeling it – new floors, tiled bathrooms, redone kitchen, etc.

    Those “Lost Boys” turned that place into a showplace home for themselves, only to be kicked out again.

    Too bad the Sons of Perdition documentary didn’t tell the entire story about these Lost Boys.

  182. I had heard that Jeremy wasn’t a nice person, but never knew about the House Just Off the Bluff. The boys need to sue Jeremy for their time and labor costs.

  183. Shocking stuff, Anon.
    The Sons of Perdition documentary makes Jeremy look like an angel.
    He doesn’t deserve any credit – those boys do.

  184. I was pissed at Jeremy for turning them out. In fact, so pissed that I was totally tempted to call him up and reem him out.

  185. Jeremy needs reaming out.

    WTF has he been thinking, lo these many years?

    His poor wife and family!

    Go for it Anon @11:21 PM

  186. Fighting child abuse abroad does not necessarily involve directly changing laws. It can involve promoting ideas giving out information providing help for victims. Given the amount of money we freely spend propping up petty dictators seems to me we would have a little to spare to actually do some good. And anyone who beleives that republicans reduce the deficit is just not paying attentionto facts. The recent compromise tax bill that got almost unanimous republican support is proof of that. Clue! Politicians tell you what you want to hear and then do what they want.

  187. The bill which supported opposition to child brides or coercive marriage did NOT entail changing the laws of any foreign country. It provided assistance to young women who wished to escape an underage coercive marriage. The US government does not do enough in this country to eradicate the practice of underage coercive marriage, nor does it support eradicating this practice overseas. But we sure do have money to prop up malevolent dictators all over the globe, don’t we ?

  188. ?? To reduce deficit means to cut SPENDING. Ya want reduction or ya don’t.

  189. Malevolent dictators. Ah yeah, propping up Castro, Kim, Saddam, persian ayatollahs, buying gas at Hugo’s Citgo gas stations, yeah. O that last one is personal spending. But how does US government support to those increase US deficit SPENDING? You know a lot more about such things than I. I’m not even sure I agree that we do it.

    All I know is that SPENDING is what increases or props up DEFICITS. What we do at home or would, about a DEFICIT, would be is to CUT SPENDING. We’re simple commonsense folks.

    Can you reword the above to make it more clear, help me understand?

  190. The only way to signicantly reduce federal deficits is to reduce entitlement spending. That means reductions in social security benefits, feederal pension benefits, medicare benefits and the loss of certain tax reductions like mortgage interest, etc.

  191. The tale of Jeremy Johnson is fascinating. From taking swings at helping polygamist people, to helping Haiti like a rock star, etc, it all makes him look good – but when you look at his business practices, you really wonder why he isnt in the federal pen.

    (Along with innumerable polygamist leaders)

    Bizarre doings in Utah, this time the victims range all over the US.

    But hey! He delivered Oxygen to a polygamist lady living a couple dozen miles back in the desert in a sugar shack!

  192. re: the Child bride bill.

    Dont know all the details, but the question I have, is if we cant control it here, why take on the world? The main places of abuse, I will guess, is the islam nations, and fighting their culture with laws seems tough.

    I thought the UN had positions on this and polygamy, though I’m not sure thats effective either. Seeing we turn a blind eye in our own backyard.

  193. Child brides, in the US. First off if it’s not legal in whatever US State, they’re not brides, they’re children who are being raped and the State in question needs to put the perp behind bars. Along with the participant parents.

    Elizabeth Smart had federal involvement because of kidnap, sex and state lines. But first, kidnap laws. Next her parents were not participants. Utah would never have lifted a finger or made a criminal charge if the feds had not gone for the kidnapping charge. Utah would have given that child to that criminal Mitchell and his other woman.

    What’s wrong with this picture?

  194. AAnon at 11 am

    Great post! And yes, another Christmas, another year passes with tens of thousands of children being brought up to be polygamists just like daddy and mommy, getting grandfathered in, (Except in Texas as GT notes) though I do have concern for the kidlets on the kult kommune.

  195. And did we talk about that child medivaced from the YFZ who was critically injured by heavy earth moving equipment yet?

    I guess a child can work for his family, but is there a 10-99 for payment to daddy for this work?

    Oh wait, he wasnt working for daddy, he was working for Evil Merril, that guy going to trial soon for forking his 12 yr old to Warren, as I recall..

    Oh well, one more roadkilled boy, plenty more where that came from, right? So who really gives a damn anyway?

    I’m sure OSHA and CPS wont give a darn, why, those poligamists can pretty much do whatever the heck they want when it comes to govmint agencies.

  196. I need to amend that, I realize there are A LOT of caring people in those orgs, however, as entities sometimes they act like an albatross.

    All people can do is perform the best they can. I am glad Texas wont stand for their more egregious crimes, though I dont think letting kids get killed in heavy equipment building up a sex commune is too cool either.

  197. Some Day

  198. I’m sorry, Anon, did the boy medevaced from YFZ breeding ranch to San Angelo die? I knew he was critically injured but hadn’t learned more about that.

  199. The mother and children involved in that terrible traffic accident in Cedar City are doing a lot better.

    Mom, son heal after accident

    CEDAR CITY – The mother who suffered severe injuries in an accident involving her vehicle and a garbage truck Dec. 6 is doing well at Kolob Rehabilitation Center, said her husband, LeRoy Stubbs.

    Violet Jessop moved to Kolob on Monday from Intermountain Medical Center and has been able to regularly see her children, who are staying with family friend Pam Langford.

    “She’s a trooper,” Stubbs said. “She really dug deep. I think she’s on the road to progression.”

    Jessop had four children in her van when the accident occurred at the intersection of state Route 130 and 3000 North. AngelLee Stubbs, who was nine months old, died in the accident

    Read more –

  200. chemist are you saying cut benefits for those who paid in without mentioning those who have not? I’m not certain I understood your intent. We paid off our mortgage a good while back and have health insurance but my husband for instance worked for US governemnt nearly 50 years and you think cutting his retirements are a good description of “entitlements” versus folks who want free college tuition when we paid for our own, cash?

    What we obtain too cheaply we esteem too lightly. — Thomas Paine

  201. Here is a brief list of dictators who have been supported in the past by the government – this is an example of government spending which should have been eliminated – supporting assistance for child brides would represent a much wiser use of our resources than supporting this crowd – although I do agree, I would like to see our government take stronger measures to prevent underage or coercive marriage at home first

  202. and here’s another list of US supported dictators – so supporting them is somehow better than supporting child brides who wish to escape ? how is that ?

  203. So this support you want now could somehow be retroactive and cancel out something in the past, altering history? Dang!

    So yeah, our STATE governments should and do, do things differently. Mostly they do. Our Constitution says what is US business and all the rest belongs to the States.

  204. If US government supported these dictators on the lists in the past, and we are just learning about it NOW, do you think our government’s practice has changed at all ?

    Of course NOT!

    I’d like to know who they are supporting NOW and have some say in DISCONTINUING that funding IMMEDIATELY.

    At this time, a returning member of the US military informed me that the troops used to be able to take in young Iraqi and Afghan girls (some as young as 12) who were being compelled against their will to marry older men.
    Apparently the instruction to discontinue offering refuge to said young girls has been given to the troops by upper level military management. These girls now must be returned to their family to be married and raped by an older man whom they do not know, or even worse, be subjected to HONOR KILLING for attempting to escape and resisting arranged marriage.

    I would like to see aid and refuge extended to these young girls by our troops, and so would the rank and file of our military.

  205. Who is the heck is your “we”?

  206. The United States Government and its funding source – ie the American taxpayers

  207. I’m sorry, Anon, did the boy medevaced from YFZ breeding ranch to San Angelo die? I knew he was critically injured but hadn’t learned more about that.

    GrannyToad said this on December 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM

    Granny, the boy is alive to the best of our knowledge

  208. Granny Toad: I am just saying that entitlements and tax deductions form the largest part of federal spending. Any serious effort to reduce the deficit must look at those items. The Bowles Simpson report did look at these items and made certain recommendations on them.

  209. Anon Du Jour said: The United States Government and its funding source – ie the American taxpayers

    For both good and bad. FAR too many pet projects [on BOTH sides of the aisle] get funded while things in real need go begging for funds… I have my doubts that will ever change, no matter which party has the reins.

    End of my political 2 cents!

    Merry Ho Ho to all…and to all a good night!

  210. I’m not buying into any fairytale time machine or re-written Constitution fellas and gals. Let’s get real.

  211. Cry for Venezuela

  212. Merry Christmas everyone!!!!!!!

  213. wow

    Bobbay Just now

    Jeremy Johnson, Duane Fielding, Andy Johnson and the others. All of you should be ashamed of what you have done!. You have disgraced your family name and other TRUE LDS Church members like myself.

    The ward I grew up in I was taught stealing was stealing, Being “deceptive” is being dishonest and The Lord does not look kindly on that. My son is serving a mission in California, He stated to me today that a family he was working with showed him the article stating Utah Jeremy Johnson Iworks etc and the FTC. The family told my son ” All you Mormon people are thieves and I want NOTHING to do with your church”, “PLEASE LEAVE AND NEVER COME BACK!”. My son is very upset and is questioning his beliefs. I feel they have INSULTED the good name of the church and its people. They need to be EXCOMMUNICATED!. And we wonder why non members talk down on us!.

    If it is true what people and other members are saying. How the church will not say or do anything about it due to the money the “Defendants” give.

    My family and I will be forced to find another church (non LDS) that does NOT condone that kind of behaver!

    I have nothing more to say. I will just sit back and see what happens, Then make my decision.”

  214. I don’t know that much about this case – is Jeremy Johnson an observant LDS man ?

  215. Oh YES anon @11:24 PM.

    Jeremy Johnson is (supposedly) the epitome of “an observant LDS man”.

    That (righteous LDS) stature is one of the things that makes this entire International ripoff scam so painful for me.

  216. Merry Christmas to you all.
    Love, Fred

  217. Anon @ 10:00 PM I am so sorry for the pain and confusion that your missionary son has had to endure because of the cheating ways of Jeremy Johnson.

    However, I do agree with you that you and your family should look closely at the church that you support and its condoning the behavior of Jeremy Johnson and its other members scamming innocent people.

  218. Anon 10pm–If you will let that drive you away then imo you were already looking for an out. come on. be honest. TRue? right?

  219. There are people of all faiths who are scammers and abusers, just as there are good people of all faiths.

  220. Well that’s true to a point but Utah’s LDS does have an ahmmmm exceptional share. It’s a remarkable record.

  221. The Catholics have their pedophile priest scandal and related coverups regarding said scandal – as well as the execution of “heretics” during the Reformation and the Crusades, the Jews have Bernie Madoff, the Moslems have suicide bombers, the Taliban, and Osama Bin Laden, the Protestants have televangelist scandals of all kinds – sexual and financial, and the LDS has Mountain Meadows, Jeremy Johnson, and of course looking the other way while some fundamentalist groups related to their faith engage in very un-Christian behavior….
    In Sri Lanka, Buddhists and Hindus have engaged in bitter, decades long wars against each other when both of their religions denounce violence and bloodshed of any kind.

    I don’t know which group is worse.

    It is enough to turn anyone off to organized religion.

    So glad I gave up on organized religion long ago and I decided to just follow Jesus.

    Merry Christmas everybody !!!

  222. The point here, is what is the Church doing about it? This guy already was caught cheating people and had to give 400,000 back in restitution.

    Now, what course did the Church take then? They are quick to excommunicate for other infractions, however it appears massive fraud isnt one of those reasons.

  223. The LDS Church is not going to excommunicate Jeremy, he is a huge financial supporter, do you realize how much tithing comes in from him….I once worked for a “high Up” bishop in the FLDS church, the man was the biggest scoundrel I ever did encounter, and man, immoral as anyone I ever saw, the way he talked made me blush with embarrasment….BUT, he had tons of money, and I realized, that his money had him in the position he was in….

  224. I feel very privileged to have taken care of his man, and I wanted to share this with you folks –

  225. The ward I grew up in I was taught stealing was stealing, Being “deceptive” is being dishonest and The Lord does not look kindly on that


    Don’t you ever wonder then, why the LDS church worships a founder, Joseph Smith, who committed adultery by marrying other men’s wives? Isn’t that just like stealing? And lied about being a polygamist? How is that honest? And told his wife she would go to hell if she didn’t accept his cheating on her? Jesus himself declared there is no marriage in heaven, so why does the LDS church claim to follow him, yet ignore his words by touting a celestial kingdom that includes plural marriage?

    People are free to believe anything they want, but I have always been personally offended that LDS and FLDS wave the Jesus flag, when they are really following Joseph Smith – a man who wrote his own bible in order to justify having sex with as many women as he could get his hands on.

    So anyway, Merry Christmas!

  226. I totally agree Anon E. Mouse. The Mormons, LDS and FLDS are not Christian religions. They don’t believe in following Jesus, they believe in following Joseph Smith and I guess they intend to continue following him straight to Hell.

  227. I agree with S, there are good and bad people in every religion. I have done peace marches and worked in urban blight neighborhoods along side Catholic priests who were the finest people you can imagine. And then you read about other priests who are sexual predators. We are all flawed and subject to making horrible errors. Today, of all days, be kind to each other.

  228. S and Betty say it well. And this – “Today, of all days, be kind to each other.” – prompts a couple of my favorite quotes:

    “What wisdom can you find that is greater than kindness?” ~ Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

    and Thomas Paine from his Rights of Man:

    “I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.”

    Merry Christmas to y’all. 🙂

  229. Peace to ALL -may we find ways to honor each other and to help each other lead meaningful lives.

  230. I also agree with Anon E Mouse. The first year I spent Christmas with my LDS in-laws it was SO strange. The entire time was more of a tribute to Joseph Smith (since it was his birthday) than a tribute to Jesus. I was really glad to get out of there!

    Merry Christmas! and peace, goodwill towards man.

  231. E.Texas, those are great quotes to live by!

  232. Hello, and Thank you for the information here. I invite you to visit a site I just started @

    I can use as many voices as I can get. It’s time to get the word out worldwide…Thank You

  233. Patrick –

    Thanks for getting the message out that polygamy is not just a problem seen in the American Southwest.

  234. Did anyone see this ?

  235. Oh gee S, that is such a sad and tragic situation. Especially on Christmas and outside of an LDS temple.

    I did find this part strange –
    Officers found numerous weapons, including guns, swords and ammunition, inside the dead man’s car, Starks said.

    SWORDS ???

  236. I wonder why so many weapons – surely he had more than one target in mind then …. on Christmas of all times. Horrible.

    Did anyone see this – apparently coercive underage marriage is a problem for young Chechen women

  237. The bride stealing. It was about 20 years ago now, US was attempting to protect muslims from above, Croatians were slaughtering them by the ditchfull and lying while UN weenies in blue beanies turned their backs. Younger muslim arab shaheedi chatted online and headed for Chechnya to mass murder Russians. Then there was that school …

    More cultures to learn. Twenty years pass — the more things change the more things seem the same.

  238. UN weenies in blue beanies! LMAO HA HA HA!!!

    Its just so true! But hey, at least they give the world an impression countries who fund them, and host their HQ, try to give a darn. Thing is, they are like Rodney Dangerfield, they “Dont get no Respect”…

  239. Did anyone see this ? The Colorado author of a guide for pedophiles has been taken to task :

  240. Yes, I saw that about the writer. Excellent news.

  241. Saw that when Amazon pulled it, and then the pic of the perp walk.

    Good thing Florida did! Rid the streets of pedos and those that push it!

  242. There are photos of the blue beanie weenies literally turning their backs on torture and murder yet they pull their paychecks which are mostly paid by US while condemning US.

  243. Utah has a hospital named Kolob? Hilarious. Where is it?

  244. Isn’t Kolob the planet the Mormon god is from ?

  245. Yeah, basically. Here’s the well researched (yet bias and condescending) cartoon that every Mormon loves to hate.

  246. Regarding the ripoff scams that Jeremy Johnson has been pulling for years, this poor legitimate company in Perth, Australia has evidently had to deal with some of Jeremy’s lying and cheating.

    Here is what is written on this Australian web site

    The web page is titled “ARE YOU THE VICTIM OF A UTAH SCAM?”

    One of the many scamming networks in Utah operates a number of fake federal grant and funding schemes based on the same template, selling the same product, but with slightly different names, eg Grant Search Assistant, Free Grants, Grant Search Finder, Grant Master, GrantSearcher, Grant Search Network, or Fast Govt Grants, Fed Grant USA, First Gov Grants, SBA Express Funding etc. These names are chosen to resemble government departments and reputable companies, and make people believe they are dealing with a trustworthy entity. When abbreviated on bank statements they look exactly like authentic companies like ours.

    GrantSearch is a legitimate business in Western Australia, providing information about Australian grants and scholarships since our trading name was registered in 1994. We are not associated in any way with the above companies or their affiliates.

    This scheme is run by iWorks (not to be confused with the Apple product of that name), a company owned by Utah multi-millionaire Jeremy Johnson. Complaints and requests for refunds should be addressed to his office at 249 E Tabernacle St, St George, UT 84770,, phone 435-688-0634, or home address 1673 Cliff Rose Drive, St George, UT 84790-6172, phone 435-656-0719.

    The web page goes on to list MANY iWorks web sites –
    iWorks websites:


    WOW, I wonder if the FTC knows about all of these? What a POS crook Jeremy Johnson is!

  247. Here is a great article on multi-millionaire crook Jeremy Johnson from June 21, 2010. Investigative Report. Is it a Scam or Something You Need to Be Afraid Of?

    June 21, 2010 is a site that provides a service that lists consumers that have initiated a chargeback with one of their participating merchants. This leaves people listed on the database with who may have filed legitimate chargebacks for goods or services, blacklisted without their knowledge. As you will read, there may be a relationship between sites which are alleged to engage in fraudulent transactions and themselves.

    Until recently consumers were told they would have to pay $99 to get their name removed from the list and up to $1,000 if there name was removed more than once.

    It is unclear exactly what merchants supply your personal information to to blacklist consumers but more troubling, it is unclear exactly who really is.
    Who is …

  248. Yeah, I guess it takes a lot of money to afford this kind of a house –

    1673 Cliff Rose Dr

    Saint George, UT 84790

    Zestimate®: $921,500
    Value Range: $571K – $1.03M
    Monthly payment:
    Estimated Monthly Payment

    Down payment:
    % ($92,150)
    30 Year Fixed:
    4.73% $4,880 /mo
    15 Year Fixed
    4.07% $6,726 /mo
    5/1 ARM:
    3.32% $4,203 /mo

    Include estimated taxes and insurance


    Bedrooms: 7
    Bathrooms: 4.5
    Sqft: 7,686
    Lot size: 19,602 sq ft / 0.45 acres
    Property type: Single Family
    Year built: 2003
    Parking type: Garage – Attached
    Cooling system: Central
    Heating system: Other
    Fireplace: Yes

    Stain Grade Custom wood doors & Base throughout Custom Premium Cabinets throughout Custom Painting (Faux, Marbleized, Leather) throughout 12′ &15′ Ceilings throughout almost entire upper Floor Over 2500 ft. of Premium Beautiful Slate Tile Upgraded Carpet and pad throughout Premium Appliances Throughout Granite Countertops in all kitchens and bathrooms throughout home Grand Master Bedroom and Bath that must be seen to be believed (including fireplace) ?Includes Separate his and hers closets 4/5 additional Spacious Bedrooms with custom Painted walls Dream Kitchen with all ammenities (including a spacious center island & large raised bar) ++ Second Full Size Kitchen Downstairs (including a large center island) State of the Art Theater with Premium Hi-Def Projector and huge 120″ Built in Screen Elegant Formal Dining Room Huge Family Room with fireplace and wood mantle (including floor to ceiling windows!) ++ Second Full Size Family Room Downstairs Formal Living Room with 15′ custom painted Ceilings Perfect Den/Nursery near master bedroom Large Grand office with gorgeous custom built-in wood desk 2nd Office with custom painted walls Spacious 700 Sq. Ft. Great Room Excersize Room Dance/Play Room with wood floor Dirt Room off of garage Spacious Laundry Room with built in Desk Multiple Storage Rooms (including large food storage area) Spacious 450 ft. Deck with Slate Tile Spacious 450 ft. Patio with Aggragate Flooring 4 Car Garage with Showroom Tile Flooring and entry from 2 sides! Spacious Lot with a large grass play area in the backyard (including a fabric covered Dog Run!) Backyard completely fenced in custom iron…
    Neighborhood Description
    Gated high end community where several celebrities and former sports stars live.

  249. Gee, I wonder how Jeremy Johnson financed his home. When Coldwell Banker held an open house on 5/4/2007 it was listed for $1,795,000.00

  250. and meanwhile, Jeremy supposedly has an ex FLDS woman whom he “keeps” in a home in Southern California

  251. Multiple ktichens? Huge food storage room? Um, sounds like polygamy to me.

  252. Jeremy evidently owns under his name, if not other fake names to hide assets, multiple residences.

    When you are pulling a million a month ya gotta put it somewhere – wonder if the IRS is on him yet – with this kind of guy, I bet he hated paying them too…

  253. I don’t know about Here’s the site where I always go when I want to verify a company or its owner: . I found two entries with a search for “Jeremy Johnson”: Jun. 2003 & Feb. 2007 with both pro and con rebuttals. The first one mentions Colorado City and the “lost boys” .



    (I didn’t search on any of the websites / business names listed above.)

  254. Betty, long-term food storage is structured and famously encouraged by mainstream LDS. And, of course, FLDS do the same.

  255. I store food also and I’m best described as Buddhist. My mother (who was Southern Baptist before converting to Catholicism) used charts of produce use for a family of five for a year, etc., to plan her garden and canning. My dream house has a large pantry that you can enter from the garage to make it easier to load up food you have just purchased or to bring it in from the garden.

    I guess I just don’t understand how the very rich spend money. To me, a second kitchen sounds like another thing to clean and maintain without giving back much that’s useful. And I’ve had a cleaning service before, and having to manage them is still work. I can see having a small kitchen in a guest suite or a grand mother suite. I can see having a place to mix drinks and warm hors d’oeuvres. But otherwise, I don’t get it. Seems like having stuff just to say you have lots of stuff.

  256. How does one get an invite to the invitation only blogs on the blog roll here?

    Also, please visit the World Polygamy Spotlight sight at


  257. Did anyone see this ? There is a push to eradicate polygamy among the Bedouin in Israel

  258. And I see that the opposition to that movement pulls out all the same disproven arguments in favor of polygamy.

  259. Are the comments here moderated? Or did I just forget to post my comment this morning?

    – admin edit comment and also note, comments can be moderated, perhaps you were put on for some reason in the past –

    Secondly, I am in need of someone USA stateside to fill me in on the names of the different offshoots of the LDS Church, I’m aware of the FLDS because of the preponderance of blog material and stories here, but I’m informed that there are many other offshoots, and if someone could help me pin them down, I sure would appreciate it.

    My site is

  260. Betty, when you say “the opposition to that movement”, do mean all of the horny men?

  261. Multiple kitchens? Huge food storage room? Um, sounds like polygamy to me.

    Betty said this on December 27, 2010 at 8:07 AM

    Betty, it isn’t necessarily a polygamy thing. It is absolutely a Mormon thing. They routinely store several/many years of food and have really large families, where a second full kitchen (usually in the basement) comes in handy. And most average homes have HUGE walk-in rooms with floor-to-ceiling shelves to store food for the Apocalypse.

    If there is anyone here who came from a large family of a different religion (Catholic?) maybe you can correct me if this is a typical thing for large families to do (store many years’ worth of food) and do (build multiple full kitchens in one home).

  262. My reply to Betty at 12:04 AM was screwed up. I meant to ask “do YOU mean all of the horny men”?

    I have been having trouble with my wireless keyboard and mouse all day. Unfortunately, changing the batteries didn’t fix the problem. A slight point and maybe a click and I have been deleting words and opening multiple files in one fell swoop. Gremlins must have taken over my computer today.

    I guess I should have fed them some Christmas treats instead of eating them all myself.

  263. I don’t even recall how I used to live but honest! We’ve cut back. I’ve kept a serious pantry for so many decades … When I met my husband he was showing me something in his 2 car garage you couldn’t put a car into for all the big tubs of flour and whatnot he began explaining that stuff was his ex’s and I said ohhhhhh mormon, eh. Anyway I no longer keep big freezers for deer and beef and hog. There are groceries, 3, within a couple of miles heehee! I seldom ‘can’ anything or dry much any more either but do grow seasonal veggies. Oh and all my herbs.

  264. OH LOOK, isn’t this the exact same ad that one of Jeremy Johnson’s companies ran in other links? I saw it in a news video where a couple was ripped off.

    This crook is EVERYWHERE !!!

    You’ve just got to love the “As seen on parts – MSNBC, ABC, USAToday, BBC, CNN

    Work At Home Mom Makes $8,795/Month Part-Time

    News Daily 7 Investigates Work From Home Programs..

    Saint George
    Last Updated: Monday, December 27, 2010

    Have You Ever Considered Working Online?

    Kelly Richards of Saint George, Utah never thought that she would, until curiosity got the best of her and she filled out a simple online form. Before she knew it, she discovered her secret to beating the recession, and being able to provide for her family while at home with her three children.

    I read Kelly’s blog last month and decided to feature her story in our weekly consumer report. In our phone interview she told me her amazing story. “I actually make about $7,000-$9,000 a month. Is enough to comfortably replace my old jobs income, especially considering I only work about 10-13 hours a week from home.

    What BS. Typical “Jeremy Johnson” cheating people in the comfort of their own homes. HOW QUAINT!

    “I actually make $7,000 to $9,000 a month working from home.”
    – Kelly Richards

    I asked her about how she started her remarkable journey. “It was pretty easy, I filled out a short form and applied for a work at home kit. There is a small activation fee, its not really free but it was under $3. I got the Kit and within four weeks I was making over $5,000 a month. Its really simple, I am not a computer whiz, but I can use the internet. I don’t even have to sell anything and nobody has to buy anything. Companies are constantly recruiting people for this, you should try it.”

    Sure Kelly, and how much more money did you shell out to Jeremy Johnson?

  265. If there is anyone here who came from a large family of a different religion (Catholic?) maybe you can correct me if this is a typical thing for large families to do (store many years’ worth of food) and do (build multiple full kitchens in one home).

    Catholic families don’t do this as a matter of religious dogma – I was a baptized and confirmed Roman Catholic. It is a cultural (but not religious) practice of some (predominantly Roman Catholic) Italian families to have two kitchens in their home. One kitchen (on the main floor) is for display, and the basement kitchen is for actual use.

  266. I was not from a large family (three siblings). But I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood of a large city near a Catholic Church with plenty of right off the boat post WWII Italian families. There were Southern Italians, Roman and Tuscan; there were a few Northern Italian families but they were not warmly welcomed by the others. I have been in their kitchens, eaten at their family dinners. I have seen a lot of really fine linen hidden under layers of plastic, and lots of lace curtains, and many pictures of Jesus with the bleeding heart, but I have never, ever seen a second kitchen. The idea of a Southern Italian with a “dsiplay” kitchen makes me want to laugh out loud. Maybe it’s a class thing, and I’m not telling you you did not experience what you say you did, but the Italians I knew were feeling pretty lucky to have just the one kitchen.

  267. My keyboard acts up when I eat Christmas treats at the computer. Maybe you should turn it upside down and shake the crumbs out of it, or take one of those tiny little vacuum cleaners or air blowers to it.

  268. My house was built by LDS, 5 bedrooms, 2 3/4 baths, has the kitchen in the basement, and food storage pantry.

    Food storage business’s often advertise in the area. Oh, and you wouldnt believe what else besides food storage you might need after the apocalypse.

    The FLDS must think that a never ending supply of little girls will carry them through, and Utah and Arizona certainly dont stand in their way.

    BTW Brooke never made her comeback, they sent her to shortcreek and havent heard nary a tweet since, maybe she stayed?

    And the SLTRIB really got embarrassed by Jeremy, one day they have an article calling him an Angel on their front page, while all the other news outlets are talking about the millions he rips off unsuspecting people.

    Some angel, and some reporting! When you are going to get something wrong though, why not go all the way?

    This Jeremy Johnson thing is going to have legs, its going to blow up in everyones face like a Mark Hoffman.

  269. If the kitchen is in the basement, then I understand it; it’s a canning kitchen. That is not uncommon in country homes. In fact, you could say that I have one in my garage. I have a utility sink, work table, and large cast iron propane burners. I also keep the canning and pressure canner, etc. down there. The big freezer is down there, as is the spare ice box, although it is mostly full of pre-mixed dye solution cause I also do my messy crafts down there. (The garage is 5 steps lower than the rest of the house.) If I am making applesauce, I take the Kitchen Aid down there and set up the mill process down there. I also do thinks like smoking and drying down there – the smoker is right outside the garage on a concrete pad. There is no oven and there certainly is not a granit counter top.

    There are several reasons to separate the canning kitchen from your regular kitchen. For one, you don’t want to cross contaminate your canning process. You don’t want dog hair, or the kid’s half eaten peanut butter sandwich to become part of next year’s snap beans. Another reason is that the canning kitchen will become very hot with boiling water and it keeps that away from the rest of the house; usually canning is done during the hottest part of the year because that’s when the produce is at peak. Also, it is easier to fix dinner and keep the family going in a clean kitchen, rather than one that is covered in pink peach sugar, for instance. Finally, there is risk of fire, but putting the thing in the basement is not much of a protection from that. In the garage, I can open up the doors and run the ceiling fan for ventilation and the lower level and concrete floor make it cooler than most of the outdoors. Unfortunately, it’s pretty cold this time of year, also. If I am doing a lot of venison packing, then I do it down there, sealing the plastic bags and throwing it right into the freezer. That way I don’t have the blood and all on my regular kitchen counters. If I use the big electric roaster to do turkeys or leg of lamb, I keep that down in the garage just to keep the clutter out of the kitchen.

    Somehow, I kind of doubt that someone as rich as the Johnson is doing a lot of canning.

  270. When we can tomatoes, etc, hundreds of quarts a year, we use a covered deck for most of the processing. Not quite a second kitchen. I agree with Betty that keeping the canning and preserving separate from normal meal prep is wise.

  271. BTW Brooke never made her comeback, they sent her to shortcreek and havent heard nary a tweet since, maybe she stayed?

    HA HA HA Anon@9:06 AM

    Willie only has 2 wives. Maybe he took on Brooke and now has his required 3.

  272. Boy Betty, you sure are industrious. And I understand your reasoning for separating the canning and meat processing from your regular cooking.

    However, in Utah the downstairs kitchens are a full modern kitchen with dishwasher, range, microwave and fridge. They aren’t “canning” kitchens.

    When we were house hunting, about 50% of the homes we toured had second kitchens. It was hard to find one we liked that didn’t have a second kitchen (which we did not want).

  273. Somehow, I kind of doubt that someone as rich as the Johnson is doing a lot of canning.

    Betty said this on December 28, 2010 at 9:19 AM

    Correct. Jeremy is too busy conning.

  274. Here was a post from the trib, on the article (you might call it a huge retraction – because the day before they were calling him a hero and an Angel on their front page – oh more than once too)

    This is from one of his neighbors who belongs in his “Stake” or area of members.



    12/25/2010 01:52 PM in reply to Cosmopolitan

    I agree that this guy is a crook. But his religion has nothing to do with it. He lives just down the street from us and is in our stake.

    Many people are blinded by his money, but MOST of us know that he is a thug who victimizes others to fill his own pocket. These types come in all shapes, sizes and religions. Despicable.”


    What I find funny, is that MOST people knew he was a fraud, but the Trib didnt? Do they live in a rathole or something? And then there is the question, his Church has nothing to do with it, besides giving him shelter.

    I thought they excommunicated such miscreants, but evidently that is something that depends on the tithing rate of the day.

    Say, whats 10 percent of 100 million? I betcha the Church has been getting shorted, anyways!

  275. LOL

    Yeah, he is right up there with Utah’s top money conners! Some people can veggies, some people con money.

    The latter might have a good run of fun, but the sudden stop often gets them in the end!

  276. Doesn’t Warren have a pre-trial hearing tomorrow? Did he find an attorney?

  277. I thought Willie already had his required 3 wives. I’ll have to check into that.

  278. I don’t have a regular job anymore. And I like good food. More time than money = work.

  279. Second italian basement kitchen is a neapolitan-ny thing

  280. OK, I believe you. I’ve just never seen it down here. I wonder if it has to do with servants, or a lifestyle formerly based on servants. Why would the wife want to walk up and down the stairs with hot food?

  281. Warren’s PT is tomorrow. No word yet on whether or not he has found an attorney.

  282. Sorry this is bothering me so much. I looked up “basement kitchen” on the internet. Most of the ones I found are attached to a large rec room or family room in a fully finished basement. Seems it’s either for parties, being that the rec room is probably the largest room in the house. I can see the Super Bowl Game party being served out of the basement kitchen. Or it is there because the family actually spends most of it’s time in the rec room, so it’s where a casual dinner is made. That makes more sense. It’s conspicuous consumption, of course, but at least I can see what purpose it serves.

  283. Let’s make book on what game Warren plays tomorrow. Will he have an attorney, or think he can pull some other bluff on the judge, here outside of LDS/FLDS-land?

  284. Anon@10:25 AM, I only know of 2 wives for Willie – Kristina and Cynthia – both daughters of Milward Barlow. Willie got himself a Sister Act.

  285. This Jeremy Johnson thing is going to have legs, its going to blow up in everyones face like a Mark Hoffman.

    Anonymous said this on December 28, 2010 at 9:06 AM

    Yep, that may well be the case. This is an interesting article from June 2008 –

    News | The $50,000 Question: Utah’s Attorney General explains campaign donations received from company his office brought fraud charges against$50000-question-utahs-attorney-general-explains-campaign-donations-received-from-company-his-office-brought-fraud-charges-against.html

  286. Betty, yes the basement kitchen is usually next to a rec room and/or home theater. And a bunch of bedrooms. I’m sure it gets used during the Super Bowl game, but I can assure you that there is no cold beer in the fridge!

  287. GT, I think if he doesn’t have an attorney by tomorrow, he’ll find himself with one appointed for him that he’ll get to pay for. He’d have a hard time claiming indigency since he’s paying Richard Wright to come out of Las Vegas to represent him.

  288. Anon at 11:31, those are the only 2 I know of too. They stay in the Crick and Willie stays at his house in Angelo.

  289. Allen Keate and Raymond Jessop both got told by the Court of Appeals that enough is enough. They each have until January 28, 2011 to file their brief in their Appeal. Keate has had 3 extensions and Raymond 4.

    Guess the Court is tired of their stalling tactics.

  290. Leroy Jessop’s appeal on his indigency Appeal is set for submission. Not sure what that means, but both sides have filed briefs, so maybe it’s now just up to the Justices to rule.

  291. Is the Trib’s website down?

  292. I’m betting that Warren has a lawyer tomorrow, even if it’s someone he just picked out of the yellow pages. I don’t think he’s dumb enough to pull that stunt again on Judge Walther. But, he could pay the lawyer a chunk of change to just show up tomorrow and then fire him because they don’t agree on his defense.

    I doubt if many Texas lawyers go for the “God made me do it” defense.

  293. Anon, thanks for Allen’s, Raymond’s and LeRoy’s updates.

  294. Anon @ 12:23, we’ve apparently got several. So far I’d rate Mark Stevens who defended Raymond as the best of the bunch. Brandon Hudson seems to look for ways to annoy the Judge while Stephanie Goodman seems to think crying will help. Amy Hennington hasn’t done anything to help anyone that I can see and Dan Hurley lost big time for Leroy, so he probably won’t be around for another case. Randy Wilson has been attorney of record for several right until trial time and then someone else always takes over for him. Not sure what the strategy in that is.

    Warren has a deadline given the fact that he made Texas extradite him rather than coming willingly. If he’d just signed the papers and come to Texas willingly then he wouldn’t be under the 120 day timeline.

  295. I wonder where they’ll send the old fart after his sentencing.

  296. I wonder where they’ll send the old fart after his sentencing.

    Ole Warren will most likely sent to Huntsville where he will stay a short time to be evaluated, then sent to a prison unit where TDCJ feels is best for him.

    Here’s more:

    All offenders in the TDCJ are received either at a transfer facility, a reception diagnostic facility, a state jail intake facility or a SAFP intake facility. These facilities are equipped to receive and process offenders admitted to the agency’s custody. Offenders who speak little or no English will be identified and will receive the necessary type of language assistance while in the Diagnostic Process and later when assigned to a unit.
    A. Receiving and Screening
    Offenders will be searched upon arriving at a TDCJ facility. A receipt will be completed for each offender’s money and property. Medical care will be given, if considered urgent. Offenders will be housed according to security needs. State clothing will be issued; haircuts and showers provided.
    B. Photographs and Fingerprints
    Each offender will go to the Photograph and Identification Department where he will be:
    examined for any identifying scars, marks, or tattoos, and
    interviewed to obtain basic information.
    The fingerprints will be sent to the FBI and the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS). The Photograph and Identification process helps identify every offender to make sure no one is admitted or released illegally, and creates the state-issued identification card that each offender is required to carry.
    C. Physical Examination
    Offenders will be given a physical examination by medical and dental staff. The medical and dental staff will ask each offender about his medical history. The medical and dental staff will use the results of the examination to determine the special needs, if any, of an offender. The special medical needs of an offender will be taken into consideration during the classification process.
    D. Mental Health Screening
    Each offender will undergo an initial psychological screening. If during this process it is determined there may be special needs, the offender will be referred for further evaluation. (This process is not used on SAFP intake facilities.)

    It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall listening to ole Warren the felonious profit explain away to the shrinks his praying till his knees bleed or refusing to eat.

  297. If one reads the above Texas prison rules, they will find that prisoners are only allowed to wear state issued clothing , includes underwear, no FLDS undergarments allowed, and no beards or long hair, too bad they didn’t send Mitchell to Texas after his conviction. Ole Warren will have to stay clean shaven as well!

  298. La di da no fundyundies

  299. Betty,

    Here is a brief piece on the phenomenon of the NY Italian immigrant basement kitchen – and the unused showpiece kitchen upstairs.

  300. Pat, for a list of Mormon Fundamentalist groups I would start here:

    Many of these groups are very insignificant with less then 1000 members. Most are offshoots of the FLDS including the AUB and all of it’s offshoots.

    The Manti group (True and Living church of Christ) is the one that forges LDS documents in order to obtain garments and Temple admission. The LDS really hates that group.

  301. Since Toad brought up the issue of the Mormon undergarment, I would like to ask a question of any LDS/FLDS people here – why do you think Joseph Smith developed the concept of an undergarment to be worn by the faithful ?

    Is wearing such a garment a Masonic tradition ?

    The concept of sacred undergarments is not unique to Mormonism. I have often wondered if Joseph Smith was possibly trying to revive the concept of wearing the fringed, 4 cornered undergarment worn daily by Orthodox Jewish men called tzizit, as commanded in Numbers 15: 37-40, see also Deut 22: 12.
    Jesus wore tzizit, (fringes on the hem of his undergarment) as you may note when you read the New Testament about the healing received by those who touched the fringed hem of His garment – see Matthew 9:20, Luke 8:44, Matthew 14:36. The Book of the Acts of the Apostles 19:12 also documents that St. Paul wore tzizit, referring to the sacred undergarment as “aprons or handkerchiefs”

    Perhaps Joseph Smith wanted to revive the concept of wearing a sacred Jewish undergarment as commanded in the Old Testament, but did not know what the Jewish undergarment called tzizit looked like, so there is no fringe on the Mormon version ?

  302. The summer kitchen wasn’t uncommon at all until what, a half century back. Yes it was mainly about canning. Mess and heat and humidity and any breeze that could be stirred. It’s not Italian basement or mormon or anything else, it’s what WE did and some of those were community canning kitchens. Think seafood on the coasts, hogs in the midwest, beef … and in the dryer southwest we dried meat, the cold dry northwest dried fish. So many variations continued. And we didn’t dry only meat we dried beans and green beans and squash and like out euro forbears, crocked meats partly cooked and sealed over with lard or other serious fats.

    Yes my kids and I lived on the edges and I only ever had food stamps for 2 months.

  303. Most of my life I’ve lived with electricity and indoor plumbling. But not all my life. That’s what happens when you get old.

  304. The summer kitchen wasn’t uncommon at all until what, a half century back. Yes it was mainly about canning. Mess and heat and humidity and any breeze that could be stirred. It’s not Italian basement or mormon or anything else, it’s what WE did and some of those were community canning kitchens. Think seafood on the coasts, hogs in the midwest, beef … and in the dryer southwest we dried meat, the cold dry northwest dried fish. So many variations continued. And we didn’t dry only meat we dried beans and green beans and squash and like out euro forbears, crocked meats partly cooked and sealed over with lard or other serious fats.
    Yes my kids and I lived on the edges and I only ever had food stamps for 2 months.


    Granny, you’ve been one hardworking gal! My kids are gone, just the two of us now, we take turns cooking, and when it’s my turn I make something really simple and easy, like a big salad or baked fresh salmon. Not to mention, just down the street is a Safeway open 24/7 and take your pick of Thai, Teriyaki, Sushi, Italian or Mexican cuisine/takeout.

    Yup – when it comes to cooking, I’m pretty lazy.

  305. Re Warren: Do you think he’s become so absolutely SURE that God is going to “deliver” him that he’s just going through the motions of getting an attorney, etc.

    Does he really think victory is going to be handed to him in some form before, during or after the trial because, well he’s special and God loves him and the FLDS and hates everybody else.

    Of course he did fight extradition to Texas, so maybe he doesn’t have quite 100% faith that God is going to run interference for him.

  306. Those are some really cool and valid observations, GrannyT. I think of a summer kitchen as a separate building, an out building, partly for fire safety but all the other things you said. Sort of a la Monticello; put it a long way away from my bedroom.

    But, my mind is still not wrapping around putting it in the basement and how it helps anyone. I may get it or I may just give up. But then, I don’t understand how a national holiday about Thanking God can turn into “Macy’s Day” and involve giant, inflatable cartoon characters. I figure I must be wired differently from everyone else.

  307. RE: Warren

    Just my opinion… the dude is suffering from delusions of grandeur. But…I think he might be starting to get scared. If he’s not… he will be.

  308. The man involved in the Christmas Day temple shooting was involved in real estate fraud, as per the Trib

  309. Perhaps Joseph Smith wanted to revive the concept of wearing a sacred Jewish undergarment as commanded in the Old Testament, but did not know what the Jewish undergarment called tzizit looked like, so there is no fringe on the Mormon version ?

    S said this on December 28, 2010 at 6:25 PM

    Well the best answer appears to let the LDS answer the question, here’s a link that might answer some of your questions:

  310. Shoot A Texan, check the photo of Warren closely. He isn’t wearing his fundieundies in County jail. Shame on him. The pictures of Raymond from county jail showed his fundieundies prominently displayed.

  311. No armor on Warren. Naked of his false promises.

  312. This is what the Jewish sacred undergarment looks like for anyone interested – resembles somewhat the top portion of the Mormon undergarment for men, except for the fringe of course –

  313. Here’s a write up on Warren Jeffs hearing tomorrow, he has to enter a plea and should have his new lawyer.

    If Jeffs doesn’t have a lawyer will Judge Walthers appoint one for him?

  314. A Texan, hasn’t Judge W already offered to?

  315. She has Toad, but he didn’t take her up on it. I think if he doesn’t have a lawyer today, he won’t have a choice.

  316. Found this on Yahoo news –

  317. Warren has a deadline given the fact that he made Texas extradite him rather than coming willingly. If he’d just signed the papers and come to Texas willingly then he wouldn’t be under the 120 day timeline.

    Anonymous said this on December 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM

    That is a good observation Anon. Warren did bring this upon himself. I guess he shouldn’t have followed Wally’s advice.

  318. The man involved in the Christmas Day temple shooting was involved in real estate fraud, as per the Trib

    S said this on December 28, 2010 at 9:12 PM

    Fraud, MLM and Ponzi schemes all SOP in Utah. As the Tribune article says,

    “He said the group used membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as leverage to convince potential investors they were upstanding citizens.

    “They knew it wasn’t an investment because Dan would be evicted for not making the payments,” Quintana said. “Ernest Moffitt hides behind his temple garments and hides behind his show.””

    This is business as usual in Utah.

  319. Just wait and see what kind of scams are cooked up if Utah passes this legislation.

    Bets on how many people will be minting gold and silver coins in their basement kitchens and filling the coins with worthless metal?

    Legislation proposes Utah adopt a gold-based system

    Imagine paying your next parking ticket in gold Krugerrands or renewing your driver license using American Gold Eagles.

    A proposal in the Utah Legislature would require the state to allow just that, requiring government agencies to accept gold for transactions, and creating a parallel monetary policy for intrastate commerce tied to the price of gold.

    Under the legislation that has been drafted, Utah residents could mint their own gold or silver coins, a storehouse would be created to stockpile the precious metal and the Utah Defense Force, an arcane state militia that may be called and armed by the governor, would be responsible for securing the inventories.

  320. The name of the Utah bill mentioned above is really funny. They are calling it the “The Utah Sound Money Act”. They should call it the “New ways to use your basement kitchen to cheat and steal in Utah Act”.

    But I guess that name is too long for the legislators to remember.

    Some church members will probably get rich selling cookbooks on how to make the new coins.

    I hope no one tries to fill them with leftover Jello.

  321. Is it even legal for states to make their own money? I thought we already fought a war between the states which included, among other things, forbidding that.

  322. And don’t get me started on how dumb the gold standard is. Ogden Kraut, anybody?

  323. Warren was arraigned. Still doesn’t have an attorney. Judge said if he doesn’t have one by the 5th that she would appoint one. Willie, Wendell and 3 other FLDS men were present in the courtroom.

  324. Warren is a real idiot playing with fire here.

  325. Betty, I agree with you. I thought it was illegal for individual states to make their own money after the Civil War. Is Utah trying to go back through their time machine to the days when the area was the State of Deseret and not associated with the United States?

    Of course, you have to keep in mind that this proposed bill is coming from the same Legislature of idiots who proposed eliminating the 12th grade for all high school students last year.

  326. Betty, I hate to get you started, but you have me curious. What did Ogden Kraut have to do with the gold standard? This is news to me.

  327. He’s a big advocate for that, along with various other dumb conspiracy theories.

  328. Warren. What’s his game this time? Is he going to try to pretend at some time in the future that any TEXAS attorney was inadequate, for some future appeal? We know he’s gaming Texas taxpayers.

  329. Briefly, gold does not have an intrinsic value. You can’t eat it, it does not make power, it won’t keep you warm. Other than jewelry, there are only a few industrial uses for it. It’s value is set based on speculation, now and back when it was the basis for the dollar. You could as easily use oil. So, it’s really just as arbitrary,imaginary and symbolic as paper money. Wrap your head around the fact that money itself is a symbol for goods and labor and gold is just another symbol.

    Second, although the number of people in the world increases, the amount of gold is generally fixed and finite. This will (and did) inevitably play havoc with world economies.

    Third, finding a new gold mine creates a sudden and artificial wealth for countries without relation to the actual trade or manufacturing wealth of the country. This is a source of instability.

    Finally, gold has to be physically stored, protected and moved about and it’s heavy and bulky. It can be stolen, melted down and is thus untraceable. Since it’s value is just as symbolic as the value of the paper money, that’s an unreasonable expense and risk that offers no payback.

    People who advocate a gold standard are generally trying to do a few things: get rid of the Federal Reserve system (whole other argument), get rid of debt (you can borrow gold, folks, I hate to tell you that), or just want to turn back the clock to a simpler life, as if the Great Depression never happened. Or, they are just plain ignorant.

    That’s different, of course, from having gold in your portfolio. Nothing wrong with having some gold as a balance for recession, just don’t go crazy. Most of the time, it’s a poor investment.

  330. Utah doesn’t particularly ascribe to any US laws or the US Constitution anyway, except for what Utah can get from US taxpayers, or what laws it can hide behind. Little difference from FLDS, maybe less blatant.

  331. Ah yes, Ogden Kraut, author of the tome entitled “Jesus Was Married”…among other confabulations

  332. Well done Betty 11:38 AM

  333. Gold does make very attractive jewelry however. That is about it.

  334. So Warren’s game is still the “Answer them nothing” approach. What a loser!

    Warren Jeffs pleads not guilty in Texas

    “SAN ANGELO, Texas — Polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs stood mute during an arraignment on bigamy and sexual assault charges and a West
    Texas court has entered not guilty pleas on his behalf.”

    … “Jeffs sat and said nothing as prosecutors read charges that he had sex with a girl younger than 17.”

  335. Ole Warren plead not guilty today, here’s more from news media reports:

    Appears that Judge Walthers will appoint a lawyer for the ole felonious profit whether he wants one or not.

  336. Speaking of Ogden Kraut. His widow plural wife is now in charge of polyg kid talent shows.

    Polygamous youth talent show raises charity funds

    Associated Press • Published: December 29. 2010 9:50AM

    SALT LAKE CITY — A talent show featuring youth from Utah’s polygamous community has generated an $1,800 donation to a statewide domestic violence hotline.

    Sponsored by an equal rights committee of the polygamy advocacy group Principle Voices, the October talent night featured more than 20 vocalists and musicians. Nearly all were kids.

    Principle Voices co-founder Anne Wilde says the event was designed as a service project for youth. Nearly all of Utah’s polygamous sects were represented. About 250 attended the performance which was held in a private home.

    The funds generated were donated to Linkline, a 24-hour domestic violence hotline run by the state.

    Wilde says Linkline has suffered under state budget cuts. The hotline connects callers with counseling, shelters and other services.

  337. Belle, gold also makes for shiny front teeth and dental fillings.

  338. Sorry Anon 12:34 pm, I forgot about gold dental work.

  339. I wonder if Brooke wrote that “Polygamous youth talent show raises charity funds” article?

  340. From the talent show article –

    “Nearly all of Utah’s polygamous sects were represented. About 250 attended the performance which was held in a private home.”

    Boy, that must be one BIG home!

    I wonder how many basement kitchens it has?

  341. More of Jeremy Johnson’s “prior bad acts”. This time it was the SEC stopping his cheating instead of the FTC. I guess he didn’t learn how be an HONEST businessman after his legal troubles with the feds in 2001.


    Litigation Release. No. 16920 / February 28, 2001


    The Securities and Exchange Commission filed a civil action in federal district court in Salt Lake City, Utah, against (“RumorSearch”), a company that purportedly researches stock rumors for paying subscribers, based in St. George, Utah, and its principal Jeremy Johnson (“Johnson”), age 25 and a resident of St. George, Utah. The Complaint alleges that the defendants made false statements about and touted the stock of Far East Ventures, Inc. (“FEVI”).

    According to the Complaint, in January and February 2000, Johnson profiled FEVI as RumorSearch’s Stock Pick of the Month, sent several emails to RumorSearch subscribers and others praising FEVI and received a total of 95,000 FEVI shares for touting FEVI. In these touts, Johnson and RumorSearch misrepresented or omitted to disclose material information regarding FEVI, the reliability of information and Johnson’s receipt of compensation for the touting. While touting FEVI through his false and misleading releases, Johnson sold 66,500 FEVI shares at a profit of $315,848.

    The Complaint alleges that the defendants’ conduct violated the antifraud provisions of Section 10(b) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 (“Exchange Act”) and Rule 10b-5 thereunder. The Complaint further alleges that the defendants’ conduct violated Section 17(b) of the Securities Act of 1933 (“Securities Act”). Section 17(b) of the Securities Act makes it unlawful for any person to distribute a publication recommending a security without fully disclosing the nature, terms and amounts of compensation received or to be received. The Complaint seeks permanent injunctions, disgorgement, prejudgment interest, civil penalties, and other relief.

    Read more –

  342. I have a few gold teeth in the back. Seems I’m a grinder and after I cracked a ceramic crown, my dentist started putting gold back there. Cheaper than replacing the cracked crowns.

    What, me worry?

  343. E. Texas, you mentioned that you were not familiar with and use to check out companies.

    Good thing you do that, as is OWNED BY JEREMY JOHNSON!

    Read this article –

    Wait For it, Wait for It. I Works and Jeremy Johnson Get NAILED by the FTC. Told You So.

    Dec. 26, 2010

    Back in June I wrote an investigative piece on After hearing about the site and reviewing it I became very concerned at what was behind it.

    Locally Jeremy Johnson is a humanitarian helicopter pilot, assisting the local Sheriff department in search and rescue operations and even doing some work internationally. Hooray, a hero. And good on him for that. But how many people were saved using profit made from sucker punching thousands of consumers? That is far less than hero worthy.

    The Bad com site was created to blacklist consumers that issued chargebacks for goods and services. But the kicker is that the majority of those chargebacks were for goods and services they never ordered from Jeremy Johnson affiliated companies.

    Read more –

  344. Thanks anon, 1:33. I’ve used for many years. I always check it when I want to know about a company before I do business with them… ESPECIALLY internet businesses.

    I would love a work-at-home telecommuting job, but I haven’t found one yet that I’m comfortable with. It’s one of the scammiest areas on the internet there is! Ripoffreport does it for me.

  345. Here is another story from 2005 where Jeremy Johnson was illegally soliciting donations during the 1st Southern Utah flood (not last week’s flood) and was dinged by the Utah Department of Commerce.

    He was also under investigation by the FAA, but had Orrin Hatch on his side. (Jeremy sure does like to fly to Motoqua, which is an AUB – Allred – polygamous community in the middle of nowhere.)

    I hope Jeremy learned his lesson from that 2005 situation and legally registered his donation solicitation efforts for the 2010 Haiti earthquake victims with the Utah Division of Consumer Protection.

    One would think that this multi-millionaire would pay for his heroic PR acts (with the associated free “hero/angel” media coverage) instead of soliciting money from the general public. But, hey, if your business is ripping off (stealing money from) the general public I guess taking money (asking for illegal donations) from the general public is a hard habit to break.

    Was heroic pilot’s plea for donations illegal?

  346. E.Texas, too bad you can’t get paid for the Internet business of blogging – LOL

  347. Perhaps we’re past the fundy-undies subject here, but I thought I’d jam in my unholy 2¢-worth.

    Real Mormon temple garments are worn by those who receive their first endowments IN THE TEMPLE.

    The FLDS undergarments are homemade… and fake. The faithful are supposed to wear them “as if” they went through the endowment ordinance – in adulthood, btw.

    Mainstream Mormon children do not wear them the way FLDS require all their adherents to, including children. Also, FLDS would never stoop to wearing the current modernized (shortened) version(s) the mainstream church has authorized – oops!, another indictment of church apostasy.

    Garments should never be taken off – including during sex – except to bathe/shower. They are worn directly against the skin. All other clothing goes on OVER them.

    Yes, they are supposed to be an “armor” that protects against the satanic evils of the world as well as remind you of your modesty, sanctity and commitment. (I’ve heard many stories of MEN who were literally saved because they were wearing them.)

    Also, according to FLDS rationale, adherents will be used to the full-length coverage (only head and hands are exposed) when endowed in the future with the “real” ones after the second-coming when the apostasy of the mainstream church is set in order and the (FLDS) true priesthood is again restored to officiate over the Church and its temple ordinances.

    As for the lack of them on Warren,.. I don’t know if it’s because they’re not allowed in prison, or if it’s his preference. If the latter, it speaks all the more (at least to his flock) of appearing to be the suffering martyr. Meh!

    I am vaguely curious as to whether the collar, ties and holy marks are included in the current Warren-era homemade versions. I had to sew those into each of my husband’s new ones which, according to practice back then, was required because he originally received his with his first “real” temple endowment – before he left the Church. When he wore a pair out, I had to cut off the collar, ties and holy marks and make sure they were BURNED – not just discarded. (The rest could be cut up for rags.) But I never included those marks in either my or my children’s jeezus-jammies since we had not been formally “endowed” in a “real” temple ceremony.

    Without ranting further, I think somewhere in the above should be the word, “hypocrisy?”

  348. OK, just one more article on the cheater Jeremy Johnson and then I’ll give it a break.

    I must add this last one because it was written by Brooke Adams and it is an appropriate ending to my rant because Brooke seems to have been fooled again by a fraudulent enterprise (this time iWorks instead of the FLDS).

    Utah businessman didn’t hesitate to help Haiti
    By By Brooke Adams The Salt Lake Tribune
    Publication: The Salt Lake Tribune
    Date: Friday, January 22 2010

    Patricia Sheffield wasn’t a bit surprised when she heard St. George businessman Jeremy Johnson was leading a relief mission to help children after an earthquake decimated Haiti.

    Over and over, Johnson has come to the aid of those in crisis — from Washington County residents who lost homes in a flood to teens fleeing one of southern Utah’s polygamous communities.

    “Jeremy is one of the most unsung heroes I believe we have in this country,” Sheffield said. “He does so much good quietly that people do not know the impact that he makes. His heart is huge.” (Yes, Patricia, Jeremy has a huge heart but also deep cheating pockets).

    So Johnson, known to fly below the radar to get a job done, didn’t hesitate to act after seeing what had happened in Haiti.

  349. “…I had to sew those into each of my husband’s new ones which, according to practice back then, was required because he originally received his with his first “real” temple endowment – before he left the Church…”

    East, are you saying here that your former husband had been a member of the LDS church and then he became FLDS?

  350. Anonymous said this on December 29, 2010 at 1:52 PM
    E.Texas, too bad you can’t get paid for the Internet business of blogging – LOL

    I WISH! 😉

    I have to admire one talented blogger who for years has supported herself (and family). She has a marvelously wicked sense of humor: —

  351. S… Yes I AM saying that.

  352. jeezus-jammies – E. Texas you are too funny. I adore GrannyToad’s calling them fundy-undies. But jeezus-jammies is even better.

    Kudos to you and Granny!

  353. One has to wonder if going thru such rituals as wearing a certain underwear somehow makes people feel holy. How come they do not recall the words of the Christ who says we are not to worry about clothing, etc….. I suppose customs are foreign to those on the outside, but some things are just too weird.

  354. Warren might have had on jesus jammies bottoms, there was some sock looking things bunched around his ankles, but the highlight of his wardrobe were the orange slippers he wears. They are a great accessory.

  355. Older Anonymous,
    Jesus and St. Paul wore sacred undergarments called tzitzit.
    See my posts from last night.
    Joseph Smith may have been attempting to revive an Old Testament Orthodox Jewish custom.

  356. Here is an LDS document wherein they liken the Mormon practice of wearing a holy undergarment to the Jewish practice of wearing a holy undergarment called tallit katan (or tzitzit) as I mentioned that Jesus and St. Paul wore in my posts last night.

  357. Why all the screww tightening of the people in Colorado City/Hildale?

  358. Obviously the people of the Crick aren’t pious enough since the prison walls haven’t fallen down and let Warren go free.

  359. I wish iitmoc was here. She could provide us with an update regarding the situation in Colorado City/Hildale.

  360. My fav jewelry pieces tend to yellow gold and red rubies with nothing else, no diamond froufrou. I also have jelly opals. With silver of course I like red coral, blue and green turquoise and any other copper minerals, peridot, other native found semi-precious stones. So much for taste.

  361. Where is IITMOC?

  362. re: fundie undies…..there are quite a few examples of undershirts from early Islamic sources that are embroidered with prayers of protection and symbols of protection, fertility, power, etc. Egyptian, Yemen, and one really beautiful one in white linen with blue silk thread embroidery all over it that belonged to one of the first Ottoman Emperors.

    I think that there are ritualistic benefits from doing some harmless but mildly inconvenient thing as an act of faith. Like ritual fasts, or wearing certain colors, etc. Almost all religions have such rituals. But I think they are tools for a fairly immature level of spirituality. Once you “get” the lesson and internalize it, then outward symbols like the special underwear should become unnecessary.

  363. Appears that Judge Walthers will appoint a lawyer for the ole felonious profit whether he wants one or not.


    Well, it won’t come as any surprise if he gets convicted and then appeals because he didn’t have “proper counsel” or some such nonsense.

    That is typical Warren/FLDS slippery circular game playing, like what they’ve done to drag out the UEP case.

  364. As for the lack of them on Warren,.. I don’t know if it’s because they’re not allowed in prison, or if it’s his preference. If the latter, it speaks all the more (at least to his flock) of appearing to be the suffering martyr. Meh!


    Well, he certainly wasn’t wearing them when he got busted in his cargo shorts and T-shirt!

  365. CNN is reporting today that Warren Jeffs has entered a plea of ‘Not Guilty’, without counsel being present/nominated and he has been scheduled to reappear on 5 January, 2011.

  366. Repenting from afar has been enlightening. So far, I have read: Escape, Triumph, When Men Become Gods, Church of Lies, The Polygamists, and Lost Boy. I can’t help but think that had the Jeffs brothers spent more time studying The message of Christ and less time playing “hide the midget” with their nephews, then I would still be with my loving children today. That is all. God Bless.

  367. I don’t think it would be an appealable point if he refuses to get an attorney and one is appointed for him. Judge Walther is obligated to appoint someone for him if he doesn’t hire someone unless he specifically says he wants to represent himself.

  368. Granny, what are jelly opals?

  369. Warren represent himself? He’s sure have a fool for a client!

  370. I really don’t care if someone wears special religious undergarments or external, visible religious garb – nor do I judge anyone for their religious clothing or lack of it.

    If someone’s clothes make them feel closer to God, or part of a certain community, who am I to judge them, or to say that they don’t spiritually “get” it because they feel the clothing is necessary?

    Who am I (or anyone) to make a judgment that they haven’t “internalized” spiritual principles because they wear certain religious clothing or underclothing ?

    Jesus wore religious garb, the tzitzit. Ghandi displayed the bhindi. Mother Teresa wore a special sari which all the members of her Order wore. I think we can all agree that all three of these people had a high level of spiritual practice. All three had internalized the message and exhibited their devotion to the Divine externally as well.

    I have had the privilege of knowing wonderful spiritual people who both internalize and outwardly exhibit great spirituality who choose to wear religious clothing in visible and hidden forms, and I am loathe to criticize them or judge them for it.

    The only form of religious garb I find objectionable is the burka – because women report that they have difficulty seeing out of that uniform, and because physicians have documented that women are frequently injured while walking around in the burka due to impaired vision. As for the rest of the religious garb, who cares ?

  371. Judge Walther’s has already offered to appoint ‘Warrant’ Jeffs a counselor but he’s finding his own, hopefully by his next court appearance.

    Bill Medvecky seems to have buried his ‘Save the FLDS Children’ site and is planning a second re-incarnation on Blogger. I knew the peacefulness would not last.

  372. In total agreement with S .

    The main thing I objected to in wearing it during my polygamous marriage was all the hypocrisy – on which I am loathe to elaborate further.

    I have no problem with people’s chosen garb or tokens of spirituality, as long as none is demanded of me.

  373. I wasn’t critiquing you, East. Is iitmoc available ?

  374. Even then his legal interests MUST be preserved.

  375. I don’t know if the undergarments of those living on the ranch and had their “endowments” have sacred symbols etc sown into them, but the undergarments of the flds that I am aware of do not. The undergarments are to help us remember to keep our bodies covered and to prepare us for the day when we will wear the sacred garments.


  376. iitmoc, happy belated Joseph Smith day, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year as well.
    How are things in your community with the recent re-baptisms and new requirements you spoke of ?

  377. iitmoc, perhaps the current FLDS undergarments don’t have the sacred symbols on them because E. Texas resigned as undergarment seamstress and no one else was up to the task of sewing them on.

  378. Hey IITMOC, I saw the profit today with my own eyes and he looked pretty pitiful.

    BTW, CNN might have reported that Warren pled not guilty, that’s not quite the whole truth. Warren didn’t plead anything. He was told before the beginning of the arraignment that if he didn’t plead one way or the other, that a plea of not guilty would be enter on his behalf by the court. That’s what happened. The man stood there like an idiot and didn’t say a word during that part. At least the others stood up and said they were not guilty, even knowing they were guilty as hell. The only ones who didn’t plead not guilty were Emack and Lehi. They pled no contest during their plea bargain.

    Willie, Wendell and 3 other men were in attendance. Willie said he was going back to the Crick, so watch your backsides if you’re still there. One of the 3 guys there had the goofiest look plastered on his face. It truly looked like a blithering idiot. If I can find a picture from one of the Utah court appearances, I’ll post a link and maybe someone can tell me his name.

    IITMOC and others in the Crick, keep safe.

  379. S, I agree with your assessment of the religious garb. Who cares what the devout wear? But I also have an issue with the burka. I consider it demeaning and dangerous for the women – they can’t see what’s coming up along side of them.

  380. Anon 9:19 pm, there is a move among Moslem male physicians to ban the burka due to the injuries sustained by women who are required to wear it. They are now publishing medical journal articles which document the injuries sustained by burka clad women. If I can find a link to one of these articles, I will post it here.
    I wonder what the Taliban will do to these doctors. I shudder to think.

  381. This tourists video tour of Hildale starts at the walled in Jeffs Home!


    Can anyone tell me the name of the man standing next to Merril?

  383. Well, I think things are not getting any better. We have been told there will be a great purging of the unfaithful very soon. Every elder is going to have a personal interview with Lyle and judged whether they are faithful and worthy to stay a part of the group.

    Everyone over the age of eight is to answer eight questions to determine if they are worthy and prepared. On the surface, the questions seem relatively harmless:

    1- Do you only think pure thoughts?
    2- Are your desires in pleasures of unrightousness?
    3- Do you dwell in wickedness of evil dross of this generation?
    4- Is there in your heart the seeking for Babylon?
    5- Are you saying your prayers in all you do?
    6- Are you dwelling in the spirit of your calling as an emissary of God?
    7- Have you received the gift of the witness of my approval in your marriage conduct?
    8- Are you abiding the law of purity and righteous obedience in my holy law?

    Besides these questions, Lyle recently stated we should not have any personal identity–we should think, act, and talk as we are taught and directed. There has also been a fair number of the reconfirmatins that have had to be redone because the individual had filled out their last name or parents wrong. With all the reassigning of families I guess it got a bit confusing for some. Even some of the older folks whose parents are in the Centenial group, or Allred group etc had to redo theirs because they were not supposed to list those individuals as their parents. In these cases, they often left the parents out completely.

    In short, things are getting more fanitical out here.


  384. anon 10:07,

    That is John Wayman standing next to Merril.


  385. He’s the one who had the idiot grin on his face throughout the hearing today.

  386. Here is the interview with Flora Jessop that includes footage of the Baby Graveyard.

  387. The idea of an apostate seems to be more for the faithful then the unfaithful. Why? Because the faithful need the apostates to look at so they can say “Behold there walks the wickedest form of evil among the inhabitants of men. Harken children and take note of this apostate and see the evil that drips from his very breath. There is not a doubt they shall dwell in endless torment in the furthest reaches of hell.” then it goes further. “Come close my son and hear my words and write them on your heart. See this apostate and the things that he has done. See wickedness in his heart for it is shown by his gentile clothing and worldly music. Thus he thinks evil continually.” Then the child is taken into the city and the gentile world and shown the nakedness and general wickedness so as to have formed in his mind the idea that in truth he is better then them. Then when he fails to perform or makes a mistake, or wants to do this or that which is not desired of him he has no ground to stand on for he is reminded of the apostate and reminded that perfect obedience is what is needed. Therefore the apostate provides a tool to control. And that my friends seems to be what its all about.

  388. Lyle Jeffs needs to be thanking his lucky stars that he isn’t indicted like the other men. He married Mable Jessop when she was underage and she gave birth to their son Rulon while underage.

  389. How are they going to keep the news of Warren’s trial and all the stuff that comes out from the Crickers? At the ranch it will be easier, but how do you control something like that in the Crick?

  390. S wrote “Who am I (or anyone) to make a judgment that they haven’t “internalized” spiritual principles because they wear certain religious clothing or underclothing ”

    I didn’t mean that to be judgmental, although I see that it could be interpreted that way. I certainly am not putting my self in a higher position and looking down on anyone for what they wear, or even for what sort of spiritual path they are taking. Whatever works as long as it does not harm others. Also, growth is not linear; someone can be extremely well developed in one aspect and very undeveloped in some other area. So it was not in any way my intent to say that I am better than people who wear funny clothes. In fact, there are occasions on which I myself wear funny clothes.

    I was just speculating on spiritual paths in a vaguely philosophical way, and specifically I was thinking about what could be called “mortifying the flesh” through austere practices. I lived in a yoga ashram, and am very aware of the value and the pitfalls of restrictions on food, dress, sex, contact with the world. I think it has it’s place in the learning process but is not an end to itself, that’s all.

    Also, I am leery of practices that are about “modesty”; hiding bodies to keep away sin is not likely to be particularly effective. Humans have a tendency to exaggerate that which is denied, and thus the mere thought of a knee or the inside of the elbow that one never sees can take on an overblown significance. I don’t think that it’s an accident that there is a lot of sexual abuse in cultures that have stringent modesty rules and rituals.

  391. I have a big problem when religious clothing is required by law; women being beaten for going out in public with their ankles showing, or their scarves not long enough, etc. If someone choses to wear something that’s one thing; if the police chose it for you, that’s something else entirely.

  392. My problem with the FLDS and the “freedom of religion” defense is that if you allow them to break the law with regard to marrying more than one woman, how is it fair to bust the guy who smokes pot and claims it is his religion.

  393. iitmoc, I hope that you are able to survive this ordeal with your family intact. I was thinking that with Warren Jeffs out of the picture that things might improve for you folks. I pray and hope that a more ethical leader will arise in your group. I don’t pretend to know who that would be, nor do I know if one leader could make a difference.

    (now if only East Texas was elected prophet somehow …)

  394. E Texas is more qualified than Warren or Lyle.

  395. Chill out, dear Betty. No one is judging you and you made no inappropriate comment IMHO. Everything’s cool and we LOVE ya!

    You are an amazing lady with an amazing past, present and future.

    I often feel like a real dud after reading some of your postings.

  396. Thanks, Anon.

    It sounds to me from some of the above statements, that Lyle is in charge. Am I misreading that?

  397. Yes, East Texas is definitely more qualified than Warren or any of his sycophants.
    Since we all agree the burka is a repressive (and potentially injurious) religious garment, I would like to post this You Tube video :
    Burka Woman

  398. How are they going to keep the news of Warren’s trial and all the stuff that comes out from the Crickers? At the ranch it will be easier, but how do you control something like that in the Crick?

    Anonymous said this on December 29, 2010 at 11:09 PM

    If the local newspaper doesn’t splash it on the front page so FLDS will see it when they are entering Wal-Mart, then there is a real chance that the locals won’t know what is happening in Texas.

    Some FLDS will have Internet access, but that won’t necessarily mean that they’ll know what is happening in Texas.

    In other words, the Crickers may remain totally oblivious to the real truth regarding Warren and his evil ways (as it is exposed during his trial in Texas). And, if some of them happen upon the real truth, they may still choose to remain (consciously) oblivious of Warren’s evil ways.

  399. I would certainly vote for E. Texas to take over the FLDS since it is her heritage and she pulls rank on Warren the weasel. But I don’t think this blog would ever convince E. Texas to attempt a coup d’etat.

    E. Texas probably has more sense than to take 2 steps back into that rat hole.

  400. Oh those boys wouldn’t know what hit ’em if I got in there and started cleaning things up! Believe me, I’ve had visualizations (in the not-too-distant-past) of doing just that! 😀

  401. That is John Wayman standing next to Merril.


    Anonymous said this on December 29, 2010 at 10:12 PM

    iitmoc, is that the same John Wayman who bought Warren the brand new Red Cadillac SUV he was caught riding in by the Nevada Highway Patrol? The guy looks so young to have that much money to buy such an expensive car.

    BTW iitmoc, thanks for your input on this blog. It’s always nice to have you around!

  402. iitmoc… so glad to see you here too. I hope all is well with you and your family.

    My last conversation with Lyle was pretty pathetic. I hope you’re up to all the invasiveness.

    BTW…I’m thinking of being present at Warren’s trial – whenever they get it set.

  403. you are not misreading Betty, Lyle is in charge.

    How do they control the media access in the crick–anyone found looking into what is really happening, especially concerning Warren is at risk of being sent out to repent. Many are so convinced that he is God on earth it does not matter what they see or hear. They will just say it is another test to see if they will stay loyal. When your entire life and purpose for living, along with your value system is tied up in believing in a man and his doctrine, it makes it very difficult to think critically. Those in power here exploit that fact and have used it to gain an amazing amount of control over the people.

    Yes anon 12:10, that is the same John Wayman.


  404. Betty, Lyle is in charge (Bishop) of Short Creek. Warren is still “the prophet.”

  405. E. Texas,

    I am preparing for it–this may be the point where I split paths with those I have grown up with and love. There are certain things that are not Lyle’s business, or anyone else for that matter, to know and if asked I will not answer. The less I give them, the less they have to crucify me in the eyes of those I love once I am out.


  406. E. Texas, YOU GO GIRL! I’m behind you 100%. Let’s clean up Warren’s mess and make Short Creek a happy place to live again.

    I am just so worried about the Creekers learning how they were used and abused by Warren who secretly built up the YFZ and the other FLDS “refuge” properties. It was their sweat and blood that financed these other places of refuge and they were left hanging in the wings.

    It is disgusting to me how Warren used his faithful followers to bankroll his escapades and left the “less faithful in Warren’s eyes” to fend for themselves in the damned community of Short Creek.

    Warren is NOT a loving prophet of God; he is a selfish and evil man.

  407. iitmoc… Are you worried about any other FLDS faithful (moles) reading this blog or any other informative internet site? Or that you will be found out?

  408. iitmoc,
    I do feel for you. It’s gut-wrenching. But you seem wonderfully grounded.

    If you DO split away (and I know you don’t want to if you don’t have to), will your family stay with you? Can Lyle force any of your loved ones away from you?

  409. Excuse me, Flora’s story, has she found her mom?

  410. iitmoc’s 10:10 post gives me the heebie-jeebies on the one hand…
    and makes my blood boil on the other.

    Oh… and I’m so sorry to see that Flora interview Bobcat posted rising out of the ashes again…::shakes head:: That was several years ago and is utter BS about the girls being drowned. I do not understand why she misrepresents (lies) about things she doesn’t PERSONALLY KNOW anything about. I acknowledge Flora went through a lot and I don’t attempt to denigrate what she claims is HER OWN EXPERIENCE. But her exaggerations and outright untruths about other things makes her SO unbelievable. She constantly undermines her own credibility.

    Anon 12:58… I do not know the outcome of her search for her mother. Flora can be very dramatic.


    Can anyone tell me the name of the man standing next to Merril?

    Anonymous said this on December 29, 2010 at 10:07 PM

    The people in this photo are:

    1st row Wally Bugden, Warren’s Utah attorney.

    2nd row – I recognize the man but can’t remember his name right now.

    3rd row standing from left to right –
    Guy Nielsen; Wendell Nielsen; DON’T KNOW; John Wayman; Merril Jessop (all from the FLDS polygamous clan)

    4th row standing from left to right –
    Carlene Cannon from the Kingston Polygamous Clan (Davis County Co-op); Gary Batchelor (husband of Mary Batchelor of Principle Voices of Polygamy); Heidi Mattingly Foster from the Kingston Polygamous Clan (Davis County Co-op).

  412. E. Texas I agree with your last post. Sadly, Flora went through a lot of abuse, but she exaggerates about things and publicly speaks about about things that just never happened (such as the 2 girls drowning in the CC reservoir.) That story belongs on the “Urban Legends” web site.

    The truth is bad enough. There is no need to exaggerate or embellish about the abuses that occur in the FLDS.

    I was told by someone who read her autobiography that it should have been called “Book of Lies” instead of “Church of Lies”

    Yes, there was some “truth” in it, but there was some misrepresentation also.

  413. “There are certain things that are not Lyle’s business, or anyone else for that matter, to know and if asked I will not answer. The less I give them, the less they have to crucify me in the eyes of those I love once I am out.


    This is why I didn’t go back to talk to Lyle when they wanted me to pretty badly. I only went into his office once and decided that was just stupid. I was actually offered a place back there by my parents, provided I stay “morally clean.” I don’t plan on going back. not when I have so much going for me here. sure, it’s not easy and I have a hell of a long road ahead, but I have become more in 8 months than I could have in 3 years out there.

  414. Good to hear yeahhaa!!!

  415. Belated Holiday greetings to all

    Betty I love your posts

    S I am in love with you and would propose but am happily married to my husband

    Yehaa6 I hope your studies go well – sounds like it

    iitmoc – my prayers and thoughts for you and your family
    e texas is definitely a prophetess

    I was traveling to visit with my daughter in a third world country so I have been away – I see that wrt WJs trial it is same old same old…

    Happy New Years to all!

  416. Moral is a wonderful word – worth a dictionary read. It suggests synonyms like ‘ethical’ – ‘virtuous’ – ‘noble’ – all of which exist outside of any religious philosophy and worthy of pursuit no matter who or where you are.

    Not surprisingly, I always experience a yuck factor when I hear FLDS leadership utter, “morally clean.”

    yehaaa6, I’m so glad to hear you’re doing well.

  417. E.texas

    I have never understood the kind of religion that says “how will you be good if you don’t fear God”. What kind of goodness and caring grows from fear?

    People often assume that if you are not religious then you must have no “moral compass.”

  418. “If the local newspaper doesn’t splash it on the front page so FLDS will see it when they are entering Wal-Mart, then there is a real chance that the locals won’t know what is happening in Texas.”

    The Short Creek FLDS are shopping locally in new own company store in Short Creek. I doubt there are any magazines or books, except FLDS approved reading there.

  419. That list of questions seems to me to say “Are you a human being? Yes? Then you are not good enough.”

  420. I got curious and have been reading about Mother Teresa. Not every one thinks she’s a saint, including many people who do medical and poverty relief work.

  421. Oh, the FLDS are shopping at Wallyworld, there are confirmed sightings. Every day!

    Lyle should go look for himself!

  422. E Texas, you got something wrong, Warren isn’t the prophet, he’s the profit.

    As for John Wayman, the old saying “a fool and his money are soon parted” seems to apply to him. I can’t describe to you the way he was looking at Warren yesterday, but it was the usual way a man looks at another man.

    yehaaa6, glad you are doing well. are you getting ready for the new school semester? I am so proud you are going to college.

  423. The FLDS here in Angelo shop at Wally World too, but they seem to gravitate to the one on the other side of town from the way they come in to Angelo. When I’m out there I almost always see at least 1. When I’m at the other one, I rarely see them.

  424. I don’t understand why Wayman (and others) have not been charged for assisting a fugitive from the FBI. Is that sort of non prosecution normal? It doesn’t seem that way to me.

  425. My husband received the Aaronic benediction from Mother Theresa when he was a resident. He tells me that she radiated the Indwelling Presence. I take his word for that.

  426. There is no doubt that there are “moles” on this site. I have said things in the past and they were brought up in meeting shortly after. Something like “we still have traitors among us and have posted sacred items on some of the worst websites out there.” I guess this site is one of the worst of the worst.

    yehaaa6, glad to hear you are doing so well. When they ask if you are “morally clean” they are asking if you are 100% loyal to the “priesthood” over you. What is “moral” is a bit like Calvinball from the comic strip Calvin & Hobbs where the rules are always being changed. It is not following a set of principles or values, it is loyalty to a power structure.

    E. Texas, I think my family will be just fine. My wife sees the same as I do.


  427. Then I feel comforted on your behalf, iitmoc.

  428. Yeah, S, I can respect that opinion. I had no idea that there were detractors and I don’t know enough now to take sides. Reading the criticism, it rings true, but I can see the facts as not really being relevant to the fundamentalist Catholic view point. After having a period of change and reform in the middle of the last century, the current mood is very much a backlash, a strong traditional affirmation of patriarchy, obedience to the pope and zero tolerance for birth control. That made her very popular with the leadership in the last few decades, along with her work to increase donations to the Vatican. What is really odd to me is the way her beatification was fast tracked, record short time, only one “miracle” required and not the usual three, not hardly a nod to the idea of a devil’s advocate approach to her “trial”, poor research into the detractors of the “miracle”. Very odd.

    For instance, there is criticism that she raised huge amounts of money and yet did not improve the conditions in her hospitals which were primitive to the point of being neglectful. Most proof that exists concerning finances indicates that she transfered that money to the Vatican Bank, with rates as low as 10% going to actual charitable work. I’m not sure how much choice an individual religious order has about that. A lot of the criticism is from other health organizations which complain that the hospitals are operating at a level hardly better than the middle ages, with terrible hygiene, poorly trained staff, no separation between patients with communicable disease and those suffering from accidents and hunger, a lack of basic medications. All this alongside a very impressive amount of financial support, enough to easily solve all those problems. And simultaneously growing her order to 500 convents; this is unheard of in any one life time, passing St Francis and Benedict by far. Balanced against the state of the hospitals, one has to wonder whether her priority was the order or not helping the poor. You could see that as a focus on spiritual matters or a focus on personal aggrandizement.

    All of those things are facts, it’s just the interpretation of facts that are open to the individual, I suppose.

    And then there’s the idea that birth control, condoms to prevent AIDS, empowering women to be educated and self supporting, etc, which would alleviate poverty – these ideas are not in line with the subservient view of women and the prohibition on any form of birth control. Not surprising, and I think to judge her on that is to take her out of context. But many who are trying to do something to help “the poorest of the poor” are very critical of MT methods.

    Finally, there’s her support of some of her contributors who were truly horrible people, like the Duvalier’s of Haiti. That’s very puzzling to me.

    The aaronic blessing is limited by the Ordinary to only those who can consecrate the Eucharist, so I find her giving that to be odd in the extreme. I also saw some pictures of her distributing the Eucharist to the nuns, so maybe she had a special dispensation. Usually, people can only distribute the Eucharist with a consecrated priest present, unless there are situations of extreme duress, for instance in war time.

  429. Mother Teresa gave my husband the Aaronic Benediction when he took care of one of the nuns of her Order when he was a resident in Internal Medicine. At the time he met Mother Teresa he did not know who she was. She did not introduce herself, she simply gave him the Benediction, thanked him, wished him well, and then exited the hospital room. He related to me at the time that he felt unconditional love and great holiness when he encountered her. He did not know who she was until after their encounter when his patient told him that she had asked Mother Teresa to give him a special blessing. He considers her Benediction to be one of the spiritual highlights of his life. I think she must have had some sort of special dispensation from the Vatican to give the Aaronic benediction – I have never seen a nun give the Benediction before.

  430. Has Mother Teresa made Sainthood yet?

  431. No, not yet. She has the title Blessed, I believe.

  432. That’s a very cool story. Thank you.

  433. Speaking of Bill med, he’s not the only crook out there, here’s more on a felonious fellow know as Jeremy Johnson, seems the FDIC is cracking down on his bankers. Cutting off Johnson’s cash flow.

    This raise the question of why haven’t the feds gone after Warren Jeffs and FLDS for their fraudulent business practices? Compared to the FLDS, Johnson looks like a boy scout IMO.

  434. A Texan, where have you been? I’ve been ranting about Jeremy Johnson on this blog for a week now. He steals money (multi-millions of dollars) from innocent people (hundreds of thousands of innocent people) and then goes around Utah doing honorable deeds using the stolen money he got from his Internet scams.

    He was involved in helping the Lost Boys of the FLDS at one time. After the “cause du jour” went cold, he kicked them out of the “House just off Bluff” where 8 of them were living.

    He was in the Sons of Perdition documentary and kicked the Lost Boys out of his house after he said they failed a drug test.

    Jeremy tries to help people, but he is nothing more that a cheater and a scammer con man. The SEC went after him 10 years ago for a scam involving selling stock. It is about time he gets his comeuppance.

  435. There is no doubt that there are “moles” on this site. I have said things in the past and they were brought up in meeting shortly after. Something like “we still have traitors among us and have posted sacred items on some of the worst websites out there.”


    Jim Jones was obsessed with “traitors.” He finally went over the edge when some of his followers left with Congressman Ryan’s fact finding group. Sent a truckful of gunmen after them and we know what happened next.

  436. just in case you forget what crazy is.

  437. “And how old is your grandchild?”

    Trick question, obviously.

  438. Of course, especially when the mother of that grandchild was underage when she married and had said child.

  439. That is quite easily observed, Anon.

  440. See Dr Beall’s affidavit on the psychological effects of Mormon fundamentalist polygamy for the Canadian Reference Case here :

  441. It has been mighty quiet around here today. I hope that means that everyone has been enjoying their holiday Friday and/or out stimulating the economy while buying end-of-year bargains.

    May I be the first to wish you all a very Happy New Year.

  442. Fred, thanks for the New Year wishes-
    Happy New Year to All!

  443. Happy New Year All!!


  444. We have been quite busy with family activities. Happy new years to all.

  445. Happy MMXI,,16961_rs,00.swf

  446. Yes, I was with family and friends. Happy New Year!

  447. Happy New Years!

    Thanks Fred

  448. He’s bbbbaaaacccckkkk

  449. Today is my 15th wedding anniversary.

  450. Cosmo, where are you, on human Rights:


    Human rights must always be kept in strict balance. Conceptually speaking, justice is the force that keeps our human rights balanced. We all have the fundamental human rights of life and liberty, and other rights are derived from these two. For instance, the right to life is a sort of bundle of rights that might better be called the “right to be free from harm.” Included in these is the right to privacy, and thus even if someone touches you in an objectionable way, it is considered harmful to you and in a human rights society, we are committed to preventing harm no matter who you are. As a human being, you have the right not to be harmed directly or indirectly.

    Beneath the legal apparatus that is designed to protect our rights, there is a very straightforward formulation for giving moral justification to those fundamental rights. If I claim that I have a right, it has no moral justification unless I agree to be bound by a moral duty to protect that right in the case of everyone else. To put it more plainly, if I claim the right to be free from harm, my corresponding moral duty is to refrain from harming anyone else. This is called a social contract arrangement. None of us actually signed any kind of agreement; instead it is a system that includes basic moral concerns that everyone shares, like reciprocity, responsibility and well-being. It gets rather complicated, but the thing to remember is that if I have a right, I have a corresponding duty. It works that way equally for everyone, and this satisfies our need for justice when it works properly. And when it works properly, it is the task of the government to carry out the moral duties that we owe to each other through the more basic social contract, which is our agreement to do no harm in return for the right to be free from harm. Carrying out these duties is a huge task in a society made up of hundreds of millions of people, and the government is our hired agent in this. The government works for us, but we are the ones with moral duties. The government has no moral duty of its own. One way of looking at it is like this: we hire the government to make it possible for us to carry out these duties in a way that actually works in the real, practical world. No other system of government works this way, with the citizens actually being the responsible parties, morally speaking. And if it didn’t work this way, it would be pointless to say that we have rights. In a world like that, luck has more power than morality.

    The point of all this so far is that it is no small thing to declare that I have a right to be free from harm. I have a corresponding duty to refrain from harming others. That is what it means to have a right. All we have to do is be willing to carry out the corresponding duty, and our rights are there for us. The government makes it happen. The task of the people is to make sure the hired agent handles our moral responsibilities the way we require them to be handled. We can get as much back as we’re willing to put into the system. Of course we all have certain bare-minimum duties. We must never harm anyone directly or indirecty, and we must never infringe on the liberties of anyone else by means of taking too many liberties for ourselves. In our society, people who habitually take more liberties than their just, fair share are criminals. Remember, justice keeps our human rights in balance so that they’re equal for all. If things get out of balance, our committment to justice compels us to bring the situation back into balance once again.

    Looking at it this way, we can see that it’s never proper to use one’s liberties if it infringes on the rights of anyone else. Religion is part of our bundle of liberties, but it is not the priority among the various possible liberties. The right to choose your own way to live, as long as you fulfill your corresponding duties, is your fundamental right to liberty. Nobody has the right to use their liberties against anyone else’s. Justice can’t allow that. And you certainly can’t use your liberties to harm anyone. It’s easy to avoid contradiction as long as you remember that you have a responsibility to safeguard the right of others if you wish to have any moral justification for what you would call a right.

    I did say that we have a right to be free from indirect harms as well as direct harms. I take that very seriously. We have to prevent the indirect harms as well as the direct harms; so if your society has a religious practice that threatens anyone’s right to life or liberty in any way, directly or indirectly, it can’t be allowed to continue. In a human rights society, that is the moral law that goes much deeper than the legal codes in our lawbooks. You must not use your liberties to the expense of anyone else’s liberties. There is no exception for cultural practices of any kind. We are fundamentally a human rights culture and a just society. It is because of this fundamental arrangement that we have rights in the first place, so it supercedes the right to religion. Without this arrangement between rights and duties that underlies all of our society, there would be no right to religion. We’d have religion, I’m sure, but not the right to choose.

    Everyone has the right to choose their own way to live, as long as they observe their duties to protect the rights of others. And rights are strictly an individual affair. Groups do not have moral rights. Individuals have human rights. So we can’t sacrifice the rights of any individual to satisfy a group interest. Religion is intended to provide private guidance in this system; not moral law. So if a religious authority exercises more power than the force of public law, it is a threat to justice and human rights. The religiously-based commandment to practice polygamy is just such a threat. And indeed, no society can sustain polygamy and ensure equality of opportunity for everyone at the same time. They are contradictory forces. If a religion instructs its members to act in a way that threatens human rights, that religion cannot prevail. And creating excess males while putting females under extra stress to become plural wives is a violation of equal rights, to say nothing of the insidious practice of underage marriage that comes next. It doesn’t matter what someone’s religious beliefs say about it, coerced underage marriage is not acceptable in a human rights culture. Religious leaders who don’t comply with this must pay the penalty. Anyone who isn’t on board with the human rights arrangement we have in place is just a common traitor–a very dangerous person. Observe this arrangement or a Texas prison might be the place for you to spend your retirement. There is no room to give the benefit of the doubt for FLDS polygamy.

  451. Congrats Betty, Later this year my bride and I will celebrate our 49th anniversary. If we keep working at it we will make this marriage a success.

  452. Congrats Betty,
    Chemist – when will you know it is a success?
    We are at 28.

    Gee that reminds me isn’t one of the excuses on the list that no marriages last because no man can stay in monogamy for an extended period?

  453. Happy Anniversary Betty !

  454. Starting the new year off a lil different…

    Jeffs in jail and going to trial in Texas, good,

    Jeremy Johnson getting shut down and getting sued by the FTC, good,

    Bill says his site and all his garbage has been round filed, thats good.

    Things are coming up roses!

  455. Well, I have now been married to him longer than my two previous, combined.

    And on another note…..I think Jeffs is trying to set himself up for an appeal based on his not having adequate representation. Which means he’s got a very good idea of exactly how dim his chances of freedom really are.

  456. Happy anniversary Betty. Your hubbie is a lucky man!

    We have to kiss a lot of frogs before we meet our prince.

  457. Which means he’s got a very good idea of exactly how dim his chances of freedom really are.

    Indeed. He’s shown this over and over again. He spent thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of dollars on trying to fight extradition. Warren isn’t totally stupid. He knows he’s in deep ca ca. Right now his only hope is to try to generate some reversible error that hasn’t occurred in any of the other cookie cutter FLDS prosecutions.

    I’m not sure that the I didn’t have time to find counsel argument is particularly compelling considering how long the charges have been on file.

  458. Ron,
    welcome back and happy new year to you….
    I’ve missed you!

  459. Does how much hoppinjohn you eat new years day relate to how lucky you’re gunna be this year? I ate a lot of it.

  460. Ron, Happy New Year !

  461. It does where I come from Attila. We had our black-eyed peas and white rice tonight. Good stuff full of luck.

    I sure enjoyed writing checks today – it was all so simple – all 1’s

  462. Enjoyed a nice dinner of black eyed peas with ham and cornbread with my friends. Now we’re all set to face the new year! Health, happiness and prosperity to us all.

  463. For us the traditional New Year meal is sauerkraut and sausage. supposed to make the new year a good one.

  464. We had black eyed peas, here, also.

  465. So! Might someone explain – to one who’s been raised sans holiday celebratory traditions – what it means to eat certain things (like black-eyed peas) on New Years day?

  466. Well, hoppin john, collards and corn bread are poor folk food. I suspect that sausage and saurkraut are if you are German, don’t know. Anyway, my mother told me that if you eat poor on New Year’s, the rest of the year you will be better. Honestly, since you usually over indulge the night before and greans and beans are good for cleansing the system of toxins, there may be a practical reason behind it. Fortunately, I like black eyed peas in ham bits. Not so much the collards, so we skipped that.

    But. Most holiday eating traditions have to do with animal husbandry of years past when food was seasonal. You get an orange in your Xmas stocking because when Grandma was young, oranges were only available for about a month in early winter. You eat lamb and paint eggs at Easter, not because of any symbolic meaning, but because baby lambs and abundant eggs are what you have in March and early April. Ditto ham – if you slaughter a pig at first frost and cure it, you will be eating the first ham at Xmas. My European family eats cold shellfish, including raw oysters and boiled shrimp on Xmas Eve. Their reason is that first, it’s seasonal and second, mom’s got the kitchen pretty busy for the meal the next day, so the men “prepare” the shelfish by shucking them and picking them up from the market. We often eat venison steaks for New Years Eve, because it’s getting to the end of the hunting season and we have a lot of them.

  467. Excellent response, Betty

  468. Eating sauerkraut and sausage at New Years is traditional among many families in the midwest states I have lived in and have relatives in. I agree with Betty that it is most probably of German origin. Many parts of the midwest had a lot of Gernman immigrants.

  469. In Virginia and North Carolina, the large German populations are mostly in the mountain, having traveled down the Blue Ridge from the “Pennsylvania Dutch” area.

    Thanks, Granny.

  470. Eating blackeyed peas is a Jewish tradition.

  471. Anonymous, I realize that Wikipedia says something of the sort, but I find that a real stretch of the imagination. Making a jump from traditions of the Jewish New Year at Rosh Hashanah (October, roughly) to the celebration of calendar New Year by Christian Southerners (an area in which very few Jews lived and were certainly not widely accepted culturally) seems a bit much to me. If you look at the source of black eyed peas in the US, you are looking at Virgina, Florida and Texas before the American Revolution. You are also looking at areas strongly influenced by the the cooking traditions of Africa. In general, all the rice dishes of the American south owe their origin to Africa and Spain more than any other. And Spain was definitely not friendly to the cultural traditions of the Jews.

  472. I sure never knew where that jewish blackeye pea notion cropped up either. Dang. Kinda amusing.

    I was born to the kraut tradition then grew into the southern by having moved here. I love food. Humans need traditions. Rituals. Symbols.

    If you want my opinion about FLDS and LDS having stripped traditions from their people to bully them into following some “earthly profit” you just had it.

  473. The Jewish New Year is Rosh Hashanah, which is in September or early October. Traditions amongst the Ashkenazim for that holiday include the consumption of honey dipped apples and honey dipped challah, as well as fruit commonly harvested in Israel in the fall, such as figs.
    I am wondering if consumption of black eyed peas and rice is a Sephardic tradition. I will check with a Orthodox rabbinical expert and get back to you.

  474. I’m an inveterate Googler, but I always prefer hearing (seeing?) real people take on subjects that interest me – and of which they have personal knowledge.

    Thanks one and all.

  475. Sure enough, the consumption of black eyed peas on Rosh Hashanah is a Sephardic (Spanish, Portugese, Middle Eastern) Jewish tradition. It is not a practice of the Ashkenazim

  476. That makes more sense, S; the Sephardic connection. There are bean and rice and bean recipes all over the Mediterranean. After the reconquista, the Spanish made a point of eating pork almost as a patriotic stance. A dish that was formerly Jewish or Moorish would then morph into one with pork additives. So the appearance of bacon or ham in Spanish Rice of the US south (or Jambalaya, perloo, hopping john and other relatives which almost without exception contain pork) makes perfect sense to me. Besides, it’s a small family farm meat source, so it would be available to all income levels. You can explain the collards quite simply – it grows in the winter in the south and you can pick it fresh.

  477. I’ve studied food history as a hobby quite a bit. There are a lot of implausible theories that get repeated a lot. For instance, the theory that “hopping john” is a mispronunciation of “pois pidgeon”. I have always found that a stretch with no documentation to back it up.

    I read a fascinating article about New Orleans. In pre Civil War times, slaves were usually forbidden from playing drums and congregating in groups, since those two behaviors were common to revolts. It also kept them from having parties. On holidays, they were given a dispensation and allowed to have parties. In New Orleans, this was done at “Congo Square”, the slave market, which was closed on holidays. Congo Square then became the source of traditional black music. But I digress. The slave parties were called “hoppings” after the type of dance which looks like a hopping motion. Hopping John, would be the feast of St. John in late January (I think), which has long been a day for parades among the black Mardi Gras Indian groups. Today, those parades have combined with the Super Bowl and The Sicilian feast of St Joseph, to signal the beginning of the parade season. In any event, one can assume that “hopping john” is what you eat on the feast of St John.

    Still a stretch, I agree, but more plausible and kind of fun.

  478. ah yes, the Feast of San Giuseppe, March 19. St. Joseph’s (San Giuseppe’s) Day Sfingi pastries are awesome, with filling like a cannoli. If a member of your family is named Joseph, you must go to their home and give them at least one Sfingi and pull on their ears on his feast day consistent with southern Italian tradition. But can you only eat one Sfingi…

  479. I love Black Eyed Peas,, never wondered where the tradition of eating them on New Year’s came from,, I just enjoy them,, throw a little Jalepeno in a big pot,,, YUM YUM 🙂

  480. Sister wives” co-star loses job, guess polygamy doesn’t pay.

  481. Religion is intended to provide private guidance in this system; not moral law. So if a religious authority exercises more power than the force of public law, it is a threat to justice and human rights. The religiously-based commandment to practice polygamy is just such a threat. And indeed, no society can sustain polygamy and ensure equality of opportunity for everyone at the same time. They are contradictory forces.


    Exactly. This was so blatantly obvious during a Sister Wives interview and they were asked the question, can a wife have more than one husband? Of course the answer was “No,” but I wish the interviewer had kept after them by pointing out how that gave women fewer rights and putting them in an inferior position.

    I have heard polygamists claim that their beliefs don’t depend on women being inferior, but that’s bullshit. They’re certainly not the only misogynists out there, just ones who try to hide behind religion.

  482. Boy I wish I had some freshly picked collard greens right now. oooooo good stuff. Betty, have you ever tried them drenched in red wine vinegar? You just might like them.

  483. My ‘peas were so good I wrapped some into a flour tortilla and called it breakfast this AM .

  484. Collards in white beans. Maybe with sausage or ham shreds? Distinctly Portuguese.

  485. Who in the world would pot roast greens with their chunk of bison? DANG that is good. I’ve got a cow pot roast on but with the Usual.

  486. Collards in white beans. Maybe with sausage or ham shreds? Distinctly Portuguese.

    GrannyToad said this on January 2, 2011 at 6:37 PM

    Now that sounds REALLY tasty. Recipe please.

  487. I think we should call today “soul-food Sunday”. Ya’ll are making me hungry.

  488. On the Food Network Bobby Flay GRILLED a few big huge collard leaves on the grill! When they were tender, he cut them up and added them to a salad or some kind of pasta dish I think. Been thinkin I would try it. I an a southerner who loves to eat well seasoned collards, but I dont love cookin them inside. Too fragrant.

  489. There was an incident at the Carling Cemetery today. LeRoy and Violet Stubbs were attempting to bury their young daughter that was killed in an auto accident near Cedar City, Utah. The family had called the two telephone numbers that have been given to Jethro Barlow in situations needing the cemetery but nobody answered or returned telephone calls. The Stubbs chose a plot in the Stubbs family portion of the cemetery and dug the appropriate hole. Today, when people started arriving at the cemetery, they found that the hole had been filled in by FLDS people and a new hole for the little girl was dug by the FLDS in a remote corner of the cemetery. A Mohave County sheriffs deputy was called and was on hand in case there were problems. In the meantime friends of the Stubbs wanted to redig the original grave site hole in the Stubbs family portion of the cemetery . The FLDS sexton, Guy Jessop, Jr., would not assist, would not let anyone use the backhoe, not even let anyone use any of the shovels that were at the cemetery. The friends of the Stubbs had to go their homes and bring their own shovels to redig the original grave site. The hole was finished and the ceremony then took place. As that ceremony was occurring, three cars (presumed to be driven by FLDS individuals) drove in circles around the ceremony taking pictures and videoing the event. After the ceremony, the Mohave County deputy felt the need to inform the FLDS sexton, the sexton’s brother John and the local police officers that anyone doing anything destructive to the gravesite would be charged with a crime. One would think the Stubbs had had enough grief without having to put up with this reprehensible conduct. Although still severly injured from the car accident that killed her daughter, Violet Stubbs was able to attend while in a wheelchair. Officers Jonathon Roundy and Helaman Barlow indicated that they were holding back Donavon Stubbs (an FLDS brother of LeRoy), Willie Jessop, and others that wanted to come and confront those attending the graveside service. The service ended peaceably. What great acts of Christian charity were on display today!

  490. An act of “Christian charity” indeed. What poor taste ! How grossly inappropriate !

  491. Sorry flds excrement.

    I’ve forgotten now what I’d been going to post.

  492. Willie Jessop must be doing a lot of traveling these days, he was in Sa Angelo last Wednesday for the hearing of Warren. It appears that Warren is about as dense as Willie since he’s trying to play games with the Judge in Texas. Maybe someone should inform Warren he’s not in Utah anymore.

    As for the FLDS’ behavior at the cemetery, it just goes to show what kind of people they really are. I guess that since they aren’t really a religion they can do things like that. That’s what corporations do and guess what, the FLDS is a corporation.

  493. Is there really people from within the FLDS posting on this site? or is it only ex-FLDS? Im asking because I understood the FLDS dont have internet, or its church controlled or something like that. long distance dial up probably slow 😦

  494. O yeah beans. Well just cook ’em in plain water because it’s faster without salt or fat which chemically retard getting your white beans done, later add a hamhock or cut up sausage, and a bunch of whacked collards, quite a lot actually.

    Grandmother taught me to make “wilted lettuce salad”, it’s got crisp leaf type lettuce like romaine, absolutely not iceberg, cut large. Crisp cooked bacon crumbles set aside. Thin sliced onion half-cooked in the bacon skillet which has been mostly drained off of the fat. Have ready a small amount of watered vinegar with a smidge of sugar, salt, pepper, pour that into the skillet quick to sizzle off the bacon glaze. Toss this steaming savory liquid over the lettuce, last toss the bacon onto it all. Dig in with a fork. To die for.

    If anyone has a real recipe without the the handful, pinch, splash &c measurements I’d appreciate it.

  495. JC,
    There are ex FLDS members who post on this blog, as well as at least one current member.

  496. JC, there is an internet company in Short Creek and people from the FLDS do have internet and it isn’t dialup.

  497. Ok, so the FLDS do have internet then? Does the church sale internet to Ex-FLDS that live there? I guess I’m confused a little.

  498. St John’s day is Jan 7. Fits with Hopping John.

    I don’t know about Sfingi, but they look yummy. But I’ve seen the St Joseph’s day altars. And I vaguely remember something about green fava beans. I was really, really young.

  499. Yeah, Granny, that bison was good. I enjoyed that.

    Stir chopped garlic in olive oil and then toss in fresh spinach or arugula or chard until it’s wilted. Then stir in crumbled goat cheese and stir until it’s melted. Salt, pepper, grated parmesan or romano. Eat on toast. Yum.

  500. That gravesite behavior is really sad. I’m assuming Violet was not in good graces with the FLDS establishment?

  501. The church doesn’t own the internet company that provides to Short Creek. It’s an independent affiliate. They provide to both FLDS and ex-FLDS.

  502. Violet is a Jessop and neither she nor Leroy are currently in the cult. Leroy comes from Lawrence Ritchie who has more children in than does David who is out. I’m not sure if Lawrence and David or brothers or not.

    Does anyone know the relationship between Lawrence Ritchie Stubbs II and David Lawrence Stubbs?

  503. As for the FLDS’ behavior at the cemetery, it just goes to show what kind of people they really are.


    A child has been killed and this is what they do to the grieving family?

    Do these people ever ask themselves “What would Jesus do?” Oh wait, why would they, they’re not really Christians, they’re JosephSmithians/WarrenJeffsians who serve only their own selfish needs and damn anybody who doesn’t agree with them.

    Too bad Oprah is too busy making a fuss over that dunce Kody Brown and his harem to look into what REAL fundamentalist polygamy is about.

  504. I grow chard, that rhubarb red chard, it is gorgeous and grows here most of the year long, accenting any/all sorts of plantings, One doesn’t need to plant it like some vegetable, use it ornamentally then cut leaves here and there as you use it all year long. I know of no insect pests. Can’t say the same for collards.

  505. Yes Anon E, FLDS salivate and slobber with pleasure to torment parests of dead non-FLDS babies. It’s not the first within the year.

  506. Portuguese sailors may have passed on a sort of sailing traditional style of cooking, bean stew, for all I know. I do not know the basis of the MD traditional pofolks cooking style, putting veggies into beans soups for a hearty stew.

    Ever wonder how they cooked on those tiny oldtime wooden ships that crossed oceans? little brick fireplaces right out on deck.

  507. utesfan, those FLDS men’s actions today were disgusting examples of human decency, and they are nowhere close to anyone showing any Christian charity. They all just acted like animals, with Willie probably leading the swine train.

    They are heartless, despicable excuses for human beings.

    There is no God in their religion, as exemplified in this case. It it truly reprehensible what they did to the Stubbs family.

  508. After the ceremony, the Mohave County deputy felt the need to inform the FLDS sexton, the sexton’s brother John and the local police officers that anyone doing anything destructive to the gravesite would be charged with a crime.

    I am glad that the MCSO deputy took the time to warn them of messing with this child’s grave. I do hope that the FLDS heed this warning, because in most states it is a federal offense to desecrate a grave.

  509. This is just one more prime example of why Willie Jessop is called Willie the Thug. I wish his new moniker would be Willie the Prison Inmate!

  510. Unacceptable behavior.

  511. Dear Creek Readers,
    Please offer my condolences to the Stubbs, not only for their loss of their child, but also for the ongoing injuries to Mrs. Stubbs, and for the pain they must have suffered in trying to bury their child.

  512. Harassment.

    Which brings to mind – how is the civil rights suit against the FLDS creek leaders going? Anybody know when it will be litigated?

  513. The flds behavior at funerals for apostate babies is truly saddening and deplorable. The only other group I am aware of that exhibits this deplorable behavior at funerals is the Westboro Baptist church. Both of these groups are properly listed as hate groups by the SPLC.

  514. You know, I bet Willie Thugly was really pissed when Mudpuppy lost his blog. It caused Willie to lose his voice of spewing lies all over the internet.

    Has anyone noticed that the FLDS’ website that Richter puts out hasn’t been heard from in a long time either. Maybe Mudpuppy is a personality of Richter.

  515. Actually Anon 9:41 am, I thought that Blogogre was Donald Richter. Same style of writing. Both disappeared at about the same time.

  516. Pliggy is quiet too

  517. hellohellogoodbye, as of today there is a new Attorney General in Arizona. Terry Goddard was not able to run for office again and lost the election for governor. Tom Horne is the new AG. It will be interesting to see what Mr. Horne does regarding the abuses and civil rights violations occurring in Colorado City. Mr. Horne was the state’s School Board Superintendent for many years. He didn’t do a lot regarding the abuses/crimes in the Colorado City Unified School District during his tenure (it took AG Goddard to clean up that mess) so I don’t have a lot of hope that he will help the victims of monsters like Willie the Thug. It will be interesting to see how Mr. Horne addresses the CC problems.

  518. I don’t have much hope for civil rights from a guy who makes a priority of banning bilingual learning experiences. Seems like he’s part of Arizona’s one state attempt to replace the entire Old South as leaders in hate.

  519. Tom Horne’s history –

  520. More on Tom Horne –

  521. Susan Ray Schmidt to appear on Rachel Ray program :–112785129.html

  522. Wednesday. Day after tomorrow. Warren Jeffs needs to have his ahem feces collected. Right?

  523. GT what are you talking about?

  524. Utesfan Jan 2: There was an incident at the Carling Cemetery today.

    That is so sadddddly disgusting!!! I truly hope no one disturbs the grave of that innocent child. And, if it does happen, SOMEONE had better pay the price in jail!!! Here [silly me!] I thought the flds couldn’t surprise me anymore with their idiocy! Welll, color me stupid!

  525. anon there’s this tacky phrase called getting one’s s**t together

  526. Actually, I think it is Wednesday for WSJ.

  527. There is a really nice and short inspirational video for women on this link. A friend sent it to me and I thought I’d share it here.

  528. Too bad that pen was lost. It it hadn’t been maybe these 2 conditions of statehood would be enforced.

    “And as any Utah eighth-grader knows, Cleveland’s signature also decreed in Utah the complete separation of church and state and the abolition of polygamy.”

    Pen that signed Utah into statehood is lost relic

  529. GT, then just say that instead of the other way that made no sense whatsoever.

    and SwissieMom, it is Wednesday at 10:00 in Courtroom C.

  530. Gosh Anon I’d have never figured you to be so easily confused by the english language, sorry.

  531. I must admit that I totally understood what Granny was saying. Except I know the phrase as “having your feces coagulated” instead of “collected”. However, I disagree with her that the real saying is tacky. I see nothing tacky about it at all. It is short, to the point and not confusing to anons online.

  532. So, here we are (at least most of us) almost a year later and still not WTF Ranch. What’s up with that? How is the land speculation going? Any bids on a property so far?

  533. The First Anniversary of the WTF Cougar Ranch is a mere three weeks away. Time to plan a celebration.

  534. One of the languages I speak is Air Force. They taught me air force pinochle as a kid because I could beat the grownups at it.

  535. Is the WTF ranch next door to the bunch up at angelo rather than out at eldoraydo? I like to be closer to red lobster and wallyworld.

  536. I’d just like a little less feces in the conversation no matter how it’s phrased. Like we are educated adults or something.

    But that’s just me.

  537. Looks like the Trib woke up and smelled the coffee, they have an article on Johnson, claiming his Utah based scam program ran upwards of 275 million. Also got sued in Federal court multiple times!

    That makes Warren look like a beginner!

  538. Stamp I don’t think the SLTrib has yet begun to get into FLDS ripoffs publicly, as you and I both know of plenty and can only be knowing a small percentage of what those people pull off. They simply don’t touch polygamists in UT and AZ, anything, any criminal acts they do are all fine well and good with LDS. Can we say corruption?

  539. Brooke did a road trip, didnt get any intel, and missed the latest rodeo at the cemetery.

    Well, those who watch the FLDS see the legacy they built for themselves. Texas is proving them to be molesters too.

    Utah is so impotent!

  540. Stamp, the word is corrupt.

  541. Am I able to post on here yet?

  542. 🙂 Evidently, sorry, I was testing…Happy New Year to you all

  543. About time to start a new discussion here for the New Year is it not?

  544. Yes Patrick, welcome, you are certainly welcome.

  545. FLDS Texas, can we have a new string for the New Year ? Thanks

  546. You mean we allow Irish in here? *wink*

  547. Yes, the Irish are well represented here, I’m one of them.

    Patrick – This just in from the UK, regarding Islamic polygamy. A husband was beaten by his wives for proposing marriage to a potential fifth spouse.

  548. Today is the anniversary of Utah achieving statehood –’-history-persecution-polygamy-and-violence

  549. Ahh, we Irish have a hard time hiding it eh? Well, I was born in Ireland, raised around the coast, and it’s the most beautiful place on earth still. I work and live in London suburbs, but I get to go back and see Mom and Pops, every so often, so I don’t get too homesick yet. For what it’s worth, seemed to have an earthquake here earlier this morning, I was taking a shower at the time, I’m grateful I didn’t have to go running through the streets ;). I haven’t seen it officially announced, but I swear it was one.

  550. Susan, I read the article, the man was adamant that he “ONLY” had 3 wives. LOL, sounds like he got what he deserved anyway, this was in Pakistan.

    Its pretty hard for us Irish to hide eh? Well, I was born and raised Irish, spent my life on the glorious Ireland coasts, and there is still no place more beautiful to me, I live in close to London know cause that’s where I make a living, but I go back fairly often and see Mom and Pops, so, I don’t get to homesick.

    For what it’s worth, we had a small earthquake here this morning, I was in the shower at the time, I don’t remember EVER feeling an earthquake before, so, it was rather discomforting for a few moments.

  551. Susan, I read the article, the man was adamant that he “ONLY” had 3 wives. LOL, sounds like he got what he deserved anyway, this was in Pakistan.

    Its pretty hard for us Irish to hide eh? Well, I was born and raised Irish, spent my life on the glorious Ireland coasts, and there is still no place more beautiful to me, I live in close to London know cause that’s where I make a living, but I go back fairly often and see Mom and Pops, so, I don’t get to homesick.

    For what it’s worth, we had a small earthquake here this morning, I was in the shower at the time, I don’t remember EVER feeling an earthquake before, so, it was rather discomforting for a few moments.

  552. See the Comments on Racheal Ray’s program with Susan Ray Schmidt yesterday.

  553. From GoSanAngelo regarding Warren Jeffs today –

  554. At five it was obvious that it was not just about following Allah and taking care of the poor widows. So the girl realized she’d been a fool all these years and just lost it. I can see how that could happen.

  555. Please continue on General Discussion 45

    Thank you – Admin

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: