Open Discussion #43 – Welcome to Texas Warren

Warren’s mug shot from Reagan County.


~ by FLDS TEXAS on December 2, 2010.

542 Responses to “Open Discussion #43 – Welcome to Texas Warren”

  1. Check out Warren in the pumpkin suit.

  2. Thank you for posting this pic of our beloved husband, we havent had a postcard or nuthin fer ever.

    Anyone know if he has a brother? Besides Lyle?

  3. Or Seth? Those guys creep us out. Majorly.

  4. Was he always that skinny? Or is the pic just a tad distorted? Welcome to Texas.

  5. Betty said this on December 2, 2010 at 4:54 PM:
    I personally think Warren has some mental health problems.

    Like NPD and APD

    mc1199, the answer is, “Yes.”

  6. He is certainly looking older and more haggard than he yusta! I guess good prison barbers are a rarity.

    Oh, you wives of warren… you know he’s got plenty of other brothers; take your pick… and good luck with that.

  7. Let’s see, there’s Ward and David, Blaine and Leslie, not to mention Isaac and Nephi. Of course there’s always LeRoy, Ephraim, Enoch, Hyrum, Alan, Joseph, Dale, Gary, Brian, John, Aaron, William, Jacob, Marvin, Samuel, Wallace, Paul, Shem, Moroni, Rulon, and Parley. We won’t mention Abram since he’s in jail due to Warren.

  8. Interesting

  9. His trial starts January 24 according to this:

  10. Soooooo will Warren put on his Arizona sideshow messing up his knees praying or needing to be fed through a tube?

  11. Jan. 24 might be the proposed date for trial, but with Warren not having an attorney, that date is subject to change.

  12. #

    Soooooo will Warren put on his Arizona sideshow messing up his knees praying or needing to be fed through a tube?

    GrannyToad said this on December 2, 2010 at 11:18 PM

    Oh he might, he might even throw in a few of Mitchell’s greatest courtroom tunes and with a few Mitchell like Repents for Judge Walthers!

  13. #

    Jan. 24 might be the proposed date for trial, but with Warren not having an attorney, that date is subject to change.

    Anonymous said this on December 2, 2010 at 11:34 PM

    Oh I’m sure ole Warren will be good and lawyered up the next hearing around Dec 8. Don’t think Wally bowtie or Pic have the cojones to mess with Texas, don’t be surprised if Dick DeGuerin and company show up. For those who don’t know who he is, he was David Koresh and Branch Davidians lawyer. He has experience representing self appointed polygamist prophets.

  14. I really don’t expect any kind of crap out of Warren until he gets to the big house in Huntsville.

    As for DeGuerin, bring him on, he might as well make some money off of the FLDS gravy train. It seems every other criminal lawyer has, heck, some who aren’t criminal lawyers are signing up to be one just to get a paycheck.

  15. If the article is correct he’ll be tried for sex with a 12 year old first. I don’t see that jury taking long on a verdict.

  16. Anon E Mouse, I wonder if the Trib is trying to do away with the whole “Polygamy” section.

    Brooke doesn’t seem to be doing anything dealing with polygamy, the polygamy news is appearing elsewhere — like Jeffs’ arrival in Texas — and now there’s a “no stories” message when you click on the Polygamy link. Or, maybe they’ve just decided to treat polygamy like any other crime? Who knows?

  17. Today in the Mitchell trial the defense rested, and for the first time their expert witness actually tried to make a case for Mitchell’s insanity, no attacks on the victim. And even the defense expert was unable answer prosecutions cross examination when defense expert said claiming to be a prophet, the one mighty and strong David king etc. was a sign of mental illness. Asked if all the prophets of the various fundie groups were insane. The expert had no answer.

    Read more:

  18. I got the idea somewhere recently that the 14 year old victim’s trial would be first in line, ducks in a row and all that. Follow that with the 12 year old thus aggravated case, no chance Warren won’t be convicted, my guess.

  19. Anon E & Rebeckah, it’s nuts they carried on that polygamy section when they never properly kept the issues to crime or anything appropriate, it was *only* FLDS. I don’t think Utah really wants or needs blatant association with polygamy that they have. Politics ‘n all, y’know. They’re running a new image phase, seems to me.

  20. Mitchell’s spent enough time in the ‘tute to know how real schiz patients can act out while unmedicated and psychotic. He’s putting on an act, his defense team only has that to try to win over just ONE juror.

    When he was in they did not medicate him because meds would not do anything for him that tells you right there he’s not got any brain chemical imbalance.

  21. Well that mug shot of “Warren the Grinch” is sure appropriate –

    The guy steals Christmas from 9,000 children every year in Whoville, and now he’s famous, he was captured darting from cave to cave in his bling mobile.

    So happy Birthday, Grinch, we have you in Texas just in time to show the world how not awesome you are!

  22. here’s an interesting article in the San Angelo paper on costs of keeping Jeffs in jail:

    From article: “We had to keep him segregated from the inmate population because there’s certain members inside our general population that would not have allowed him to exist in safety very long,”

  23. Child molesters always find prison a challenge.

    They shouldnt do the crime if they cant do the time.

  24. Or self published racists, either.

  25. Happy Birthday, Warren ! Enjoy your accomodations in Texas !

  26. Here is what I am wondering about

    Why did he show up to arraignment without a lawyer.
    a) does he have one but this will drag things out?
    b) did he really not think he would get to Texas so he didn’t have one lined up?
    c) do the FLDS not have the social network in Texas yet to get a pet lawyer who will do anything?

  27. about the SL Tribune…

    there used to be a million comments on why most of the “polygamy” news was under a separate section on polygamy and not under crime…

    I am wondering if the “polygamy” section pre-dated Warren Jeffs and polygamy was kind of “sweet” and “cute” FLDS PR (hence never any other “polygamy” news on Muslim polygamy or other weird self proclaimed polygamists or international polygamy, or Brian Mitchell).

    The dark side is kind of hard to PR and so maybe the Tribune is just making it (Finally!) disappear.

  28. Good to see Texas treat this Huge McSicko Hebephiliac just like Tony Alamo and the rest of Warren’s posse – the Dirty Dozen.

    Them other Huge McSicko Hebephiliac’s will think twice about building another Rancho de Sexo in Texas.

  29. HHB

    Why did he show up to arraignment without a lawyer.

    a) does he have one but this will drag things out?

    ——> He’s got more lawyers than Carter has pills. He may not have the money to pay them though, they all might want a retainer perhaps due to past due costs and fees.

    b) did he really not think he would get to Texas so he didn’t have one lined up?

    ————-> And the walls of the prison were supposed to fall down too. Nothing he says ever happens. He is the Anti-Bookie – bet against everything he claims.

    c) do the FLDS not have the social network in Texas yet to get a pet lawyer who will do anything?

    ———–> Answered that already – I think he owes them too much in past due fees. The pets need to be fed.

  30. Dear Warren,

    It’s your 55th birthday. Boy, you sure have come a long way from the innocent teeny preemie you started life as in Sacramento. Amazing… just amazing! You know, I cannot hate you; I can even love you as a sentient being. It’s your words and deeds that are so hateful, indefensible, unforgivable, especially if (as I believe) you are not (and probably never will be) sorry for any of them.

    But I wonder… surely you DO realize as you were taking manipulative, predatory advantage of your father’s physical and mental impairments all those last 25+ years of his life, that he DID understand the sinister monster evolving before his eyes. I know he later struggled with the seductive way you arrogated to yourself the right to take over his voice and still call it his. Though he could do little about it, it chafed him mightily. Were you prescient enough way back then to know that you were laying the groundwork for usurpation?

    You looked at the big picture and took the lie planted so many years ago, masterfully devolving your basic religion into a sham version – from boring everyday complacency into sweet but zealous fervency. That constant warning over the pulpit: believe a lie and be damned. Well, I’ll give you that; you did the dirty deed – in spades. The thing you just didn’t ‘get’ was that it was already damned from the beginning. Lies… and more damned lies.

    Well, I can imagine you might feel triumphant in your current suffering. Oh, you will never show it. Just don’t let go of that ever-present peaceful demeanor you’ve perfected. It will serve you well in your pathetic march toward martyrdom. You’ll find comfort under the watchful eye of your god, but the eyes of Texas are upon you for now.

    Happy birthday, Warren. Keep sweet.

  31. Thanks E.Texas…that was perfect.

  32. Now I know where the FLDS lawyers are, they are tied up in Salt Lake City, UT in federal court, too busy I guess for even Warren.
    They are in federal court trying to stop sell of barryknoll aka land of the holy cows!

    2:00PM today

  33. great post e texas.

    the federal court hearing might explain why willie hant been at w2arren’s side

  34. Both the SLT and the DesNews had polygamy sections shortly after the 2008 rescue. The DesNews stopped their poly. section after some months. The SLT continued it and Brooke’s blog until fairly recently. I don’t know why they stopped it at this time, perhaps it was because much of the action is now in Texas and they do not want to have reporters travel to TX. Brooke pretty well killed the blog with silly rules.

  35. True–Chemist…I hardly go there anymore.

  36. East,
    A beautiful and poignant Birthday note to Warren. Thanks for writing it here. I wonder if anyone will alert him to its presence on this blog. We can only hope that he will read it eventually and gain some insight, but I don’t think he ever will. It is difficult to “break through” narcissism and sociopathy.

  37. Warren sure looks goofy, he tries to keep sweet so we know he is still drinking the koolaid.

    He doesnt realize – yet – that juries give extra long sentences to molesters who think it is all fun and games.

  38. Anon E & Rebeckah, it’s nuts they carried on that polygamy section when they never properly kept the issues to crime or anything appropriate, it was *only* FLDS. I don’t think Utah really wants or needs blatant association with polygamy that they have. Politics ‘n all, y’know. They’re running a new image phase, seems to me.

  39. LOL, I’m asleep, GrannyToad (insomnia last night). Underneath my copy of your post I meant to put:

    I agree 100%. 😀

  40. I’m wondering why the weenie warren has a possom grin on his face??? What the heck has he got to grin about????

  41. Just keeping sweet.

    Gotta keep up appearances even if prison food and lack of a good barber and haberdasher aren’t readily available to him now.

    I’d like to see a picture of his knees. 😉

  42. SSDD Warren needs an attorney who works the Texas bar

  43. This caught my attention, “Much of Brian David Mitchell’s writings coincide with Mormon teachings, BYU professor testifies”
    Now this was printed in the LDS owned Deseret News, by a BYU professor.

    The professor went on to say: “To say there was no cultural explanation for Mitchell’s beliefs, therefore making them bizarre as DeMier testified, was wrong, Peterson said.”

  44. I have heard that Lindsey Whitehurst is the new reporter covering polygamy for the Tribune. She is from out of state and has been with the Tribune for a couple of years. Brooke is on a sabbatical and when she comes back she will NOT be working the polygamy beat. I think that means the end of the polygamy blog on the Tribune. Lindsey’s articles so far seem to be impartial, which is a huge change from Brooke. I feel sorry for Brooke. I think she is a caring person that just drank too much koolade and became blinded to what the FLDS leaders were doing.

  45. from an associated press article of Mitchell’s doctrine.

    “An expert in interpreting religious texts, Peterson is the first witness called by prosecutors in the rebuttal phase of the trial.

    He said a chief theme of Mitchell’s book is the belief that the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has fallen into apostasy. Aside from that role, most of Mitchell’s beliefs appeared to be consistent with the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Peterson said.
    Mitchell was a member of the church, but has been excommunicated”.

    Seems like most of the fundies, like warren and mitchell, think the mainstream LDS have gone astray.

  46. You’re right, chemist. They resist evolution, resist going mainstream.

    Because it suits what they want.

  47. utesfan – I am sorry for Brooke if her sabbatical is related to health issues.

    I was always puzzled how the editors at the SLT could not see that she was basically a PR person for the FLDS… I agree with you that coverage seems to be more even handed, furthermore it would be good for Utah if they got rid of a “polygamy” page and reported this stuff as it arises where appropriate – for example “CRIME” and when there is feel good stuff then in the feel good stuff location.

  48. i feel sorry for brooke too because i too think she drank the koolaid.

  49. has anyone heard the results of the hearing in federal court today?

  50. I never understood why so many of the posters on the trib’s polygamy boards would complain about the polygamy section. They clearly spent an awful lot of time posting on it. Why would you want to get rid of something that has provided you with thousands of hours of entertainment for free? It seems a little silly to me. The more news the better, right? It never hurts to hear another perspective. I miss having that source for news on this story. If they weren’t fans of the polygamy section, they shouldn’t have been living on it’s message boards, perhaps.

  51. Duane, is that you ? You must be really bored now that Medvecky’s blog has been suspended

  52. Well, the last time I took “sabbatical” I was taking care of my mother while she was dying of Alzheimer’s; she had gotten “combatative” and no institution would take her. Although I love my mother and those times were a rich and powerful learning experience I treasure, I would not wish that kind of sabbatical on any one.

  53. “Living on it’s message boards”. Heh. I love how people who post a lot on the internet will tell other people who post on the internet a lot to “get a life”. Right. Physician, heal thyself.

  54. Tell it, Betty !

  55. Happy Birthday Warren! Did they stick a candle in your grits this morning?

  56. Karma’s a beyotch.

  57. Hey Nocturnal, what’s shakin?

    As for the candle thing, the sheriff said they don’t celebrate birthdays in lockup and since today wasn’t a visiting day, he didn’t have company.

    Speaking of visitation, wonder who his visitors are and which 10 are on his visitation list. I’m sure Naomie is, but who else makes the top 10 in Warren’s life?

  58. From the Standard Times today:

    His first trial, for aggravated sexual assault, is scheduled for Jan. 24, his trial for sexual assault is Feb. 21 and his trial for bigamy is scheduled for March 14. His attorney is Richard Wright, an attorney out of Las Vegas, Nev., staff at Wright’s law firm confirmed.

  59. Hey Nocturnal, what’s shakin-

    Not much, Anon. Any background info on Warren’s lawyers?

  60. Tricky Dicky kind of hung around with Pic during the Arizona stuff, not so much with the Utah case though. I wonder who his sidekick with the Texas license will be.

    An article from 2006

    LAS VEGAS (AP) – When Warren Jeffs‘ brother went looking for a lawyer following the polygamist religious leader’s arrest in southern Nevada, he turned to Richard Wright.

    “He’s the top gun in town right now,” said Charles Kelly, a Las Vegas lawyer and longtime friend. “He’s all substance and no style.”

    Wright, 59, a folksy former federal prosecutor, only smiled and thrust his square jaw forward as he led Jeffs’ brother, Nephi Jeffs, past a reporter this week following a meeting in his office.

    Nephi Jeffs said nothing, and Wright politely declined to answer questions about representing the 50-year-old leader of the Utah and Arizona-based Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    His client doesn’t like publicity, he said.

    That left it to Brock Belnap, the county attorney in Utah’s Washington County, to confirm that Wright was representing Warren Jeffs and helping find a local lawyer to try the case in Utah, where Jeffs faces felony rape as an accomplice charges that carry the possibility of life in prison.

    A status hearing is scheduled Monday in St. George, Utah, where a judge has said he wants to know if Jeffs has a Utah lawyer. It isn’t immediately clear what role Wright will play after that. He’s not licensed to practice in Utah state courts.

    If he remains on Jeffs’ legal team, the court will see someone with a style more Atticus Finch than Johnny Cochran.

    Wright graduated from the University of Southern California law school, was admitted to the Nevada bar in 1972, and is certified to argue before the U.S. Supreme Court.

    Practicing in federal and Nevada state courts, Wright has been involved in some of the biggest legal cases in recent Las Vegas history – gamblers, a boxer, murderers and a grandmother – all with low-key aplomb.

    He won Las Vegas casino executive Ted Binion multiple second chances during run-ins with state gambling regulators questioning him about mob connections a decade ago.

    That was before Binion’s mysterious death in 1998.

    Last month, Wright offered an unusually impassioned personal testimonial and 67 letters of support for another high-profile client, former Clark County Commissioner Mary Kincaid-Chauncey.

    The judge handed the 68-year-old grandmother 2 1/2 years in federal prison following her conviction on federal political corruption charges. She confided to friends outside court that it could have been worse.

    The same judge sentenced Kincaid-Chauncey’s co-defendant, former commission chairman Dario Herrera, 33, to four years and two months in prison on similar charges.

    Last year, Wright won an acquittal for champion boxer Floyd Mayweather Jr. after he was charged with hitting his former girlfriend during a 2003 argument outside a Las Vegas nightclub.

    Wright also represented confessed child killer Jeremy Strohmeyer, who went to prison for life but was spared the death penalty in 1998 after pleading guilty to raping and strangling 7-year-old Sherrice Iverson in a casino restroom in Primm in 1997.

    Strohmeyer later claimed Wright and another defense lawyer coerced him into pleading guilty. Clark County District Court Judge Joseph Bonaventure scoffed at the allegation. He called Strohmeyer’s lawyers, including Wright, “the A-team of counsel.”

    “He’s all about the law and facts,” said Kelly, also a former federal prosecutor who recalled admiring Wright’s tactics as opposing defense counsel in 1990. “He was as effective as he was ethical.”

  61. He is certainly looking older and more haggard than he yusta! I guess good prison barbers are a rarity.

    Oh, you wives of warren… you know he’s got plenty of other brothers; take your pick… and good luck with that.

    E.Texas said this on December 2, 2010 at 6:29 PM

    LMAO. I love ya,

  62. Thanks Anon, you are a treasure trove of information as usual. Good night.

  63. SLT article on the UEP case in federal court:

    From the article:

    “A federal judge is considering whether to block the sale of property from a polygamous sect’s communal trust based on the argument that the 2005 state takeover of the trust violated the constitutional separation of church and state.

    U.S. District Judge Dee Benson told attorneys on Friday to work out a compromise by Wednesday on the sale of Berry Knoll Farm, a piece of property held by the United Effort Plan Trust. A deadline for bids on the property is set for Dec. 13.”

  64. #

    From the Standard Times today:

    His first trial, for aggravated sexual assault, is scheduled for Jan. 24, his trial for sexual assault is Feb. 21 and his trial for bigamy is scheduled for March 14. His attorney is Richard Wright, an attorney out of Las Vegas, Nev., staff at Wright’s law firm confirmed.

    Anonymous said this on December 4, 2010 at 12:44 AM

    That’s correct, here’s a link for the article:

  65. Here’s an update on Mitchell trial:

    Witness spoke on how Mitchell was cruel controlling all said he was sane and very intelligent.

    Next week should be interesting as Dr. Welner should testify, hope that his report on polygamists is released, should be interesting to see if any mention of Jeffs and the FLDS.

    Also Elizabeth Smart may also testify, if so should be powerful, driving home that Mitchell is sane and perhaps a little payback to “Dr. Whitehead”

    Followed by closing arguments & jury deliberations.

  66. Checked the Texas Bar website, it had no listing for Richard Wright, so he doesn’t have a Texas bar number yet, which means he can’t practice law here. Of course he could go through process and be licenced to practice law here.

    It’s common for out of state law firms like Wright’s to make referrals to an attorney they work with in Texas.

  67. A Texan, Tricky Dicky wouldn’t have time to get licensed here himself by January 24 so he will either have to have a sponsoring attorney to be admitted pro hoc vice or he will have to recommend someone else and sit 2nd chair. If he does that, I don’t think he can approach the court, his sidekick would have to do all the talking.

  68. Could Warren think of a more expensive way to get an attorney?


    Whats it gonna cost to fly this guy in and keep him at the Motel 6 for three or four months?

  69. Wright will either get special permission to appear or come with local counsel. Either way as Stamp pointed out it is “spare no expense” in defending the “prophet.”

    Something tells me he won’t be staying in Motel 6!

  70. he he he

    Hi Ron!

    First one to catch that Motel 6 joke! But it makes me wonder, is there a Ritz Carlton in Schleicher County?

    Because from now on, thats where Wright will be staying after Warren is done paying him!

  71. Hi Ron,
    missed you
    could you comment on the federal court decision on “come on guys compromise” on the UEP sale?
    Would not the same “you waited too long” logic apply in federal court as in state court?

  72. Not much choice of motels in Schleicher County at all. I guess the location of the trial will depend on where Tricky Dicky will stay.

  73. I knew that Ron would re-emerge once Warren arrived in Texas – welcome back, Ron!

  74. HHG, I’m not sure how a claim of unconstitutional would be viewed and if there’s a statute of limitations on that.

  75. Welcome Back Ron, Missed your insights.

  76. This headline today from Medvecky’s twitter account :

    “In a bid to inflame and taint any jury pool for Jeffs, texas is posting sexually explicit photo’s of children in local papers. gosanangelo”

    Bile, what you been smokin’, dude ?

  77. G&P, the only thing I can think of is that in the photo section that had the pictures of Jeffs arriving at the courthouse for the first time, they also had pictures of Warren with 2 of his underage brides, Loretta and Merrianne.

  78. I wonder if jury duty calls will be in Christmas stockings or New Years’ mail boxes at Schleicher or Tom Green county. Or?

  79. No child porn there, Anon.

    Testimony of Dr Larry Beall in the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy

  80. Note in the notes for the Canadian reference case provided in the link above that Dr Beall states that he DOES NOT practice hypnosis on his patients.

  81. Here’s an update on Mitchell trial, of interest is comments made in reference to a certain FLDS supporter: Another Huge McSicko under all that fur, huh?
    Who would have guessed?

    Maybe it is Huge under that beard and hair! ROFLMAO!

  82. Here’s more on FLDS activities in Canada, please read the pdf links
    with testimony from Dr. Beall and Angela Campbell. Some of Beall’s testimony was posted earlier by S at 11:04

  83. A Texan, I think they must have removed the comment you are refering to. I could not find anything that matched your description.

    Both Hugh and Medvecky are seeing what their own skewed world views cause them to see. It’s fine for Medvecky to post photos of other people’s children without permission, to post naked pictures of children, but if a newspaper posts a photo of Jeffs kissing a 12 year old, it’s sexually explicit. And Hugh thinks there’s some conspiracy to discredit Jeffs by transporting him in prisoner clothing even though, he is in fact a prisoner.

  84. I’m wondering which of those few deranged coots over at is medvecky’s sock puppet.

  85. S. great find – on the blog for canada trial – thanks!

  86. I started reading the comments on the Globe and Mail and it looks like people need to start hearing the testimony from Warren Jeffs upcoming trial…

    they are all on a freedom of association polyamory is cool thing

    I suppose tho – that if polygamy were declared legal I could live with it if then we got read of charter schools and home schooling so that there was some way to provide an alternative education that encouraged young people to know their own rights to safety from sexual grooming etc….

    I argue with my daughter about this – I have come to the conclusion that polygamy should be and remain outlawed but she thinks that there should be other legal ways to provide for the safety of children

  87. A Texan, I think they must have removed the comment you are refering to. I could not find anything that matched your description.

    Betty, just checked and the comment is still there. Just go to bottom of page where comments are located. Scroll through comments, and use the next link to get to older comments.

    Swarmi [Moderator] 3 hours ago
    Another Huge McSicko under all that fur, huh?

    Who would have guessed?

    It was posted by”Swarmi”.

  88. Both Hugh and Medvecky are seeing what their own skewed world views cause them to see. It’s fine for Medvecky to post photos of other people’s children without permission, to post naked pictures of children, but if a newspaper posts a photo of Jeffs kissing a 12 year old, it’s sexually explicit. And Hugh thinks there’s some conspiracy to discredit Jeffs by transporting him in prisoner clothing even though, he is in fact a prisoner.

    Betty said this on December 4, 2010 at 12:06 PM

    Now that’s the truth, those strange fellows must have drank the koolaid along with Jeffs & Mitchell. Here’s a link to the photos that got the feathers of the gooney birds (Hugh and Medvecky) in a flap:

  89. is quieter this AM

  90. uhm

  91. Here is an opinion piece published in the San Angelo newspaper:

    So what dose everyone think? Any opinions.

  92. I don’t think the writer had any idea what they wanted to address.

    So I gave ’em one.

  93. Yeah, you did!

  94. Tonight we had leftovers, kinda. Leftover bison turned into carne guisada which I cooked with an unusual, perhaps, ingredient added: plain flat euro kale. Greens. You’d be surprised how yummy your buffalo can be cooked up with some greens. *wink nudge*

  95. I had no idea that toads ate buffalo. I’ll save that recipe.

  96. Appears the ole felonious profit is receiving visitors at the jail, he had 3 visitors, wonder who they were?

  97. Well yeah, Noc, toads gots teef.

  98. Granny, I think we’ll find out Wednesday what county will be host for the trial. Jury notices for Tom Green usually go out the month before, so if it’s is there then they will be Christmas presents.

    I’m betting Tricky Dicky tries to get it moved somewhere larger.

    And speaking of the Freedom of Religion that the FLDS always spout, I heard a piece today that the guy behind WikiLeaks can’t hide behind the 1st Amendment to break the law. Makes sense that you can’t hide behind a religion to break the law either. Maybe they should watch FoxNews more often and learn something.

  99. In this October 2010 episode of Polygamy, What Love is This ? Doris Hanson interviews John Llewellyn regarding the AUB Polygamy Group, and he compares and contrasts the average lifestyle of group members with the Sister Wives family.

  100. This toad bought some cheater reading glasses so I can read real library books once again! This first one is by Betty Webb, a Lena Jones mystery: Desert Wives. Polygamy Can Be Murder. So far it talks the talk, I’m about 1/4 way through. Somebody in the Arizona strip’s gone and blown a hole in the bish.

  101. Here’s another book recommendation for you Toad.
    I’m reading “In Sacred Loneliness – The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith”
    an interesting read. Good night.

  102. I know about a few of them from genealogy research so I guess I’d be learning about the unrelated ones heh

  103. Whaddya think? Does Warren need pearl earrings and a pearl choker with that orange outfit?

  104. Definitely Granny !

  105. So whaddya think, do FLDS continue ‘royalty’ practices and beliefs?

  106. whaddya mean by that, Toad ?

  107. At a guess, Granny means do they practice incest to keep their “royal” lines pure. (But that’s just a guess — I’m not trying to speak for Granny.) 🙂

  108. Incestual marriage is practiced by the Kingston group, not FLDS

  109. noooo lds royal lines

  110. Yes, I think there are “royal lines” in the FLDS – Jeffs and Jessop, for example.

  111. Richard Wright was hired by Warren to be his lawyer when Warren was nabbed in Nevada.

    Richard Wright was not licensed to practice law in Utah, so Wally Bugden and Tara Issacson became Warren’s lawyers for his Utah trial.

    During the Utah trial, Richard Wright was there at every pre-trial hearing and daily during the actual trial. He was 2nd chair, but still sucking down a salary.

    Now, Richard Wright is being noted as Warren’s lawyer in his Texas cases, although Wright is not licensed to practice in Texas.

    I imagine it will be the same situation in Warren’s Texas trials. Richard Wright will be sitting 2nd chair sucking down a salary while local big-wig Texas attorney(s) do(es) the actual lawyering.

    So, my question is “why even have Richard Wright?” He is just dead weight sucking down a salary (which is taking money out of the pockets of the “faithful followers”).

    Who needs him?

  112. Regarding “why even have Richard Wright?” Perhaps Warren doesn’t trust “other lawyers” and Wright’s primary function is to keep an eye on the – – “Others”!!

  113. Not going to look it up, but someplace comments were made by warren about a “caste” ranking of the different major families in the flds. No surprise that he said the Jeffs and Steed families were ranked highest, Jessops next, etc. Incest in the flds may occur simply because of the small gene pool since there were 4 families that started “the work” and there have been relativey few people come in from outside of those 4 original families.

  114. The fact that all the “big wigs” were in Utah for the UEP case instead of down in Texas holding the prophet’s hand kind of makes it clear where they are most vulnerable, doesn’t it?

  115. Can Warren clone Wright so he can be at two places at once?

    Warren is going through money faster than they can print it.

  116. Are there any estimates on the total expenses thus far for these
    trials ?

  117. SO, deb lee, or cupcake has been outed as being Debra Farver??

  118. Warren doesnt know that juries take into account the perps demeanor and admission of guilt?

    Warren gets it wrong, he is sending the message “Hey I did it, it was good times, lemme out ’cause there are still a few more 11 yr olds ripening up soon!”

  119. deb outed what where?

  120. GT: She was outed under an Oct 09 thread on this blog. The thread was titled: Is Bill Medvecky a Sexual Predator?”

    this debra farver?

    Friends: Deputy Headmistress, Bradley Wayne Horn, Tom Mcclendon, Bill Medvecky

  121. this debra farver?

    Friends: Deputy Headmistress, Bradley Wayne Horn, Tom Mcclendon, Bill Medvecky

  122. Yes, that one. Notice Duane is there too

  123. Here’s my take on the whole Federal UEP litigation:

    Despite being paid to be the “deciders” (as GW Bush would say) most Judges really don’t like to decide cases and usually prefer that the parties reach some settlement.

    I don’t think the Federal judge realizes just how polarized the parties are to the litigation in his court and doesn’t realize that the possibility of a settlement is most likely out of the question.

    Somebody may eventually tell him the parties will just have to try the matter.

  124. thanks Ron, don’t be such as stranger.

  125. Judge Dee Benson hasnt got a clue – does he have to pretend to be stupid for any particular reason?

    Maybe he does it so he can give the FLDS a last chance.



  126. Weren’t they already asked FOR YEARS to do the same he’s asking AGAIN now? What is it they say about continuing to do what doesn’t work … he’s abdicated his job.

  127. Today trial of polygamist Mitchell resumed with woman who escaped the Kingston clan testifying that Mitchell tried to convince her to become his plural wife, she declined not wanting to return to polygamy.

    From article quoting Dr. Welner at end of article, Mitchell is:
    “antisocial personality disorder — namely psychopathy, narcissistic personality disorder and pedophilia.”

    Hey isn’t that the description of Warren Jeffs, Willie the Thug, and Merrill the wife beater?

  128. Here’s another look from another media viewpoint on today’s trial happenings:

  129. This TV station appears to have the most complete trial coverage of Mitchell’s trial:,0,1715777.story

    From article: “Mitchell has proclaimed himself a “prophet” who kidnapped Smart to make her a polygamous “wife.” His lawyers are arguing insanity at the time of the crime; prosecutors claim Mitchell is cunning and manipulative.”

    What’s everyone’s opinion, is Mitchell nuts or sane?

  130. Not legally insane, but he rides the short bus to Church.

  131. I’m with Dr Welner on this one. Narcissistic and anti social personality disorders – and hebephilia of course

  132. Mitchell is sane. Just into the 2 Ps: pedophilia and power

  133. Here’s what I don’t understand about the FLDS filing all this claims now, it was Rod Parker who started the ball rolling to have the State of Utah take over the trust so it wouldn’t be used as judgments in the lawsuits not answered.

    So now Parker’s making oodles and bunches of money off claiming it was unconstitutional. Something’s not right with the picture.

  134. good call anonymous 7:59
    why isn’t the federal judge asking that question?

  135. I doubt the judge has read the material. It’s … chicken crap!

  136. We all tell our selves stories about the reality we experience. It’s just that some of the stories people tell themselves are toxic.

  137. New York Times…
    The fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (due out in 2013, and known as DSM-5) has eliminated five of the 10 personality disorders that are listed in the current edition.

    Narcissistic personality disorder is the most well-known of the five, and its absence has caused the most stir in professional circles.

    Most nonprofessionals have a pretty good sense of what narcissism means, but the formal definition is more precise than the dictionary meaning of the term.

    Our everyday picture of a narcissist is that of someone who is very self-involved — the conversation is always about them. While this characterization does apply to people with narcissistic personality disorder, it is too broad. There are many people who are completely self-absorbed who would not qualify for a diagnosis of N.P.D.

    The central requirement for N.P.D. is a special kind of self-absorption: a grandiose sense of self, a serious miscalculation of one’s abilities and potential that is often accompanied by fantasies of greatness. It is the difference between two high school baseball players of moderate ability: one is absolutely convinced he’ll be a major-league player, the other is hoping for a college scholarship.

  138. Thanks for DSM

  139. “one is absolutely convinced he’ll be a major-league player, the other is hoping for a college scholarship”

    And one thinks he is going to run a new Church, while collecting no trespass orders from about everyone he encounters…

  140. “There was something about Utah that attracted more people with religious delusions than other areas, she said.”

    How true!

  141. POST takes disciplinary action against 27 officers

    Certifications were revoked against the following officers: Jerome Watson of the Pleasant Grove Police Department for assault, Lyle T. Freeman from the Department of Corrections for theft, Kevin L. Francis of Hurricane Police Department for possession of a controlled substance, Nathan A. Barnes of Corrections for theft, Jesse L. Barlow of the Hildale City Police Department for lying on a POST application and lying under Garrity, …

  142. Whose family is this?

    Infant dies in crash

    CEDAR CITY – A 9-month-old died Monday afternoon after a garbage truck fell on top of the van she was traveling in at the intersection of Minersville Highway and 3000 North.

    The driver, Violet Jessop, and four children ranging in age from infancy to 11 years old were traveling south on Minersville Highway at 12:35 p.m. when the truck entered the intersection traveling west and could not avoid the woman’s van, said Cedar City Police Public Information Officer Sgt. JR Robinson.

    Nine-month-old Angelee Stubbs died and an 11-year-old boy and twin 2-year-old boys, who police did not identify, were transported with Jessop to Valley View Medical Center.

    VVMC Communications Director Scott Monroe said Jessop and one other child, whose name was not released, were flown to Intermountain Medical Center in Murray. Two other children were still hospitalized at VVMC as of 5 p.m. Monday.

  143. Whoa

    Thats pretty tragic. I wonder if the papers will get to the bottom of it and tell the background story.

    Looks like the lady ran a red light, from eyewitness accounts her head was broken up, perhaps just a bloodied scalp though.

  144. Polygamy and Immigration in Canada :

  145. S posted a link for a story about polygamy in Canada, it points out that if Canada’s courts legalize polygamy, they open a whole can of worms which like Utah’s looking the other way at short creek, created unimaginable problems, Once the can of worms is opened, it almost impossible to put the worms back in the can as Utah & Arizona have found out.

  146. Trial of polygamist Mitchell continues today:,0,4330216.story?page=1

  147. Very few people consider that there are far reaching implications to the legalization / decriminalization of polygamy – there are many more fundamentalist Moslems who practice polygamy in the US than there are fundamentalist Mormons.
    See this interesting post from polygamy 411 blog on the effect of polygamy on children – polygamous children weigh in on the effect of their father’s polygamy on family relationships in their own words.

  148. I’m guessing the Violet Jessop in the crash is the daughter of Sterling Jessop. She’s married to Leroy Stubbs. They have an 11 year old son and at least 2 other children besides the twins and infant who died.

  149. those polyg comments were they from turks?

  150. Granny, what the heck are you talking about, turks?

  151. 2:28 PM

  152. Toad those comments on the Polygamy 411 blog were from polygamous children from Saudi Arabia, Europe, and one comment was from the child of an independent fundamentalist Mormon polygamist. All of them described infighting in their polygamous families – including physical violence, and bitter rivalry between the wives and their respective children. Fascinating stuff.

  153. Economist comments on the value of women in polygamous societies in the Canadian reference case ––economic-freedom-reduced-for-women-in-polygamous-marriages-says-expert#article


    Warren apparently thinks he can jerk Judge Walther around. Maybe he should think again. I wouldn’t want to mess around if I were in Warren’s shoes.

    On another note, who do we think is going to show up tomorrow to support Warren. Willie, Wendell and Merril should all be in Utah hammering out the agreement Judge Benson told them to reach by tomorrow. I wonder if Annette will put in an appearance, Naomie maybe, Isaac and Seth? What are your thoughts?

  155. The lovely Naomi will make an appearance – that is my prediction

  156. Got it written down Noc Anon, but is that with dredlocks or without?

  157. Sans dredlocks, Anon, my love.

  158. Naomie should wear the lovely pink bow she had in her hair the night they were nabbed in Las Vegas. Just for old time’s sake.

  159. snarkiness not amusing. I’d recognized a new granddau’s name, her mother is Turkish. Our family nowadays represents many of the world’s peoples.

    Like Obama, I too had one grandmother who was a typical white woman.

  160. Anon @9:14 PM I agree with you that Judge Walther is not going to put up with Warren’s wanting to “take his ball and go home” nonsense. Even if he is the birthday boy.

  161. The article referenced above says – According to extradition laws, Texas has 120 days to finish prosecuting Jeffs, said Mary Ann Gonzalez, deputy clerk for Schleicher County.

    Surely there is something in the statue addressing what happens if the defendant refuses to comply (i.e. get an attorney) that they can’t be held to the 120 day limitation.

    Maybe Warren is getting advice from Rodney Parker/Richard Wright/Wally Bugden, et al and he’s being told to continue to answer them nothing in hopes that he can drag this out past the 120 day limitation?

    Ron in Houston, are you out there to offer some advice on stall tactics and how they are handled in Texas?

  162. Here is a question – if Merrill can traipse around to various UEP hearings why can’t he go to his own case on child support?


    Testimonies of ex FLDS members in the Canadian Reference Case.

  164. That’s a very good question HHG and I wonder why more people are not asking the same question. Lots of tip toeing around going on here.

  165. Nothing yet from San Angelo paper on Jeffs today, here’s what a Utah paper had to say: “A court clerk said that as of Tuesday afternoon, Jeffs had not filed any motions since arriving in Texas.”

    Read the rest of article:

  166. Warren Jeffs waived his right to a speedy trial, so 120 day rule no longer applies. Jeffs appeared in court with Richard Wright.

    Jeffs indicated that he needed more time to find Texas attorney.

  167. “Warren Jeffs waived his right to a speedy trial”

    Oh the irony.

  168. Yes, that’s pretty humorous. Apparently he only requires a speedy trial in Utah, not in Texas.

  169. Well ole Warren knows what awaits him in Texas, he’s in no hurry to take that white bus to Huntsville, Texas, or wear those all white clothes IMO!

    Here’s what Utah media has to say:

    Some of the comments very funny, one Utah person was surprised to hear that Tom Green is a county in Texas, he though they were talking about convicted Utah polygamist Tom Green.

  170. Appeared to me that Jeffs & Wright were expecting the Texas district judge to keep a flexible schedule for him and go hopping around the state at Jeffs’ convenience. I doubt they expected her to be ready to ask Jeffs to sign off on the 120 day limit, either.

    I kinda wonder what Wright expects for all this.

  171. Mitchell trial resumes, here’s a running commentary from court:,0,2888790.story?page=1

  172. Jeffs and his attorneys will not be able to delay and obfuscate in TX the way Picarretta was able to in AZ. judge Walther runs a tight and on course ship (courtroom).

  173. Well, one man’s “stall tactics” are another man’s “protecting due process.”

    Technically it’s only stalling if the prosecution is ready.

    From the articles I read it appears Judge Walther is going to insist that Warren keep his Jan 15 trial date.

    He’d better get Willie and the other sycophants going finding him a Texas attorney.

  174. Here’s an article on Jeffs and his problem in finding a lawyer in Texas.

    Even Judge Walther questioned why the felonious profit had not found a lawyer. Quote from article; “”This is not exactly a surprise Mr. Jeffs is here,” she said, noting that extradition proceedings began in June.”

  175. I’m betting he had a revelation that he would not have to go to Texas, so no need to get a lawyer there.

  176. He also had a revelation that he would be out of jail in September. I think that revelation was in 2008 or earlier. That one did not work out for him either.

  177. Warren Jeffs does not seem to have much of a track record when it comes to predictions or revelations, does he ?

  178. The walls of his prison cell fell down, but he landed in a new cell far far away. Forgot to tip the wizard.

  179. **LIKE**

  180. Ron, I think the Prosecution is more than ready to try Warren, so you’re right, Willie better quit worrying about the UEP and start worrying about finding his profit an attorney who can practice in Texas.

  181. Nocturnal Anon, the fair Naomie failed to show at the hearing today, Lyle was there though.

  182. What a shame anon, was hoping for the pink bow.

  183. what ! Lyle was there. He is my hero, if you will recall. I wish I had been there.

  184. Wonder if any of Lyle’s wives and kids are still at the ranch. Candi Shapley’s daddy was interviewed by CNN at the Ranch gate today.

  185. Here’s an opinion piece on Brian David Mitchell which makes the case for Mitchell’s guilt:

    Hopefully this means we will soon have a conviction of another polygamist, the writing is on the wall for Warren Jeffs, we the jury find the defendant guilty.

  186. is there a link to the interview with Candi’s dad?

  187. Here’s SLTrib’s take on today’s trial of Mitchell:

    IMO the today’s testimony proves Mitchell sane and guilty of his crimes. The descriptions of Mitchell’s mental state remind me of Warren Jeffs.


    There’s the link for you Noc Anon.

  189. Here’s link to CNN article on Jeffs, in interview Bill Shapley stated Jeffs was flawless, a prophet, and God doesn’t look at age in marriage. IMO this dude sounds like that Mitchell dude!

    Read article:


  191. Candi was married off to her older cousin, much like Elissa, but the age between Candi and her “husband” was much greater. She fought and bolted, but when it came right down to it wouldn’t testify against the FLDS. Her dad was out and has apparently been let back in, no doubt as a reward for getting Candi to shut up.

  192. thanks Anon – you’re terrific !

  193. Thanks Noc, you’re not so bad yourself.

  194. Jon was great on Anderson Cooper 360, but he forgot to mention that Bill Shapley was also a member who sold his daughter into an underage marriage that she wanted no part of.

  195. Shapley sounds like one ignorant redneck.

  196. From the CNN link A Texan posted @9:17 –

    “Summons demanding that several men appear in court are taped to the white gates of the ranch, where video and audio surveillance equipment records who enters and leaves.”

    I wonder what’s up with that? Are they looking for Merril the dead beat dad Jessop? Or Willie the thug Jessop? Or Wendell the figurehead profit Nielsen?

    I bet the local Motel 6 has several new occupants tonight.

  197. Comment on happenings in British Columbia. If polygamy is legal only because it is based on religion then what of honor killings, wouldn’t they also be legal as they have a basis in religion?

  198. Sure am curious who those summonses are for and what that’s about!

  199. Is there anyone in the Eldorado area who can run down to the ranch and read the summons posted on the fence?

    Granny and I are curious. Thanks in advance for your trouble!

  200. Studying Warren’s latest mug shot – how many are there now? Las Vegas (Clarke County, Nevada); Purgatory (Washington County, Utah); Kingman (Mohave County, Arizona); Utah State Prison mugs two times for each incarceration (Draper, Utah) and now Big Lake, Texas.

    Did I miss any? Well my point was that something seems to be missing from this most recent mug shot. The neckline on the shirt is too gaping and it just needs something. I think a lovely strand of pearls – a choker – would fill in the gaping area quite nicely.

    If I buy him a strand for his (belated) birthday, do you think the Texas Rangers will let Warren wear them?

    I think a strand of pearls will bring class and elegance to his prison visage and round out his new couture to impress the upcomng juries of Texas.

    I know many fine ladies in Texas wear strands of pearls (chokers) and they will appreciate Warren’s sense of style. Besides, pearls will help cover up his “turkey neck” and the female jurors will relate to and appreciate his trying to fit in with the population.

    Pearls, yes they are a fashion asset that even his upcoming attorney(s) will appreciate.

    “What style, what class, what a profit” the jury will think! A pedophile in pearls! What a righteous man!

  201. Granny, there’s many more than one ignorant redneck in the FLDS. So please don’t pick on Bill Shapley.

  202. Believe the summons were for Dutson trial.

  203. What’s missing anon @2:12 am, is his religious underwear.

  204. anon@12:11, there is no motel 6 in schleicher county.

  205. Anon 2:12 am : Pearl necklaces are not permitted in prison. They present the risk for suicide by strangulation. Shoe laces or belts are not permitted either.
    Have a Pleasant Day,
    Nocturnal Anon

  206. I too thought that was funny, motel 6. Folk who are clueless about west Texas, wide open spaces, are amusing. You can drive along the interstate and see a gas station about every 30 miles. Parts of Utah are about the same or were.

  207. Where’s Merril, where’s Willie?

    Follow the money?

  208. Blackbird, from what I’m reading of the Canadian proceedings, the thing is that any limitation on the rights of one party must be based on violations of the rights of another party to a similar or greater degree. So if polygamy laws violate the right to practice your religion, it must be shown that polygamy greatly harms women and children who practice it. I would think honor killings would fail quite easily on those grounds, as would blood sacrifice. Also, since honor killings are not written into any religions central holy writings, I think it would be hard to prove in court that they were in fact a tenet of their religion. I think they are mostly based on rulings of local, rural religious courts or are the actions of mobs or family groups. In some cases they are illegal where they occur but they are not prosecuted for cultural reasons or because of the remote, low population characteristics of the region. Kind of like polygamy in Utah.

  209. Dr. Welner today spoke to the truth of polygamy and the reason it exists. From today’s court testimony:

    “Lust trumps religion for Brian Mitchell,” Welner said, adding that some schismatic, fundamentalist LDS sects use religion as a false justification for sexually abusing young girls.”

    Place Warren Jeffs name where Mitchell’s appears and it’s the truth. Lust drives fundamentalist LDS sects to use religion as a false justification for sexually abusing young girls.

    Are you listening Warren the felonious profit, Willie the Thug, Wendell, and Merrril the wife beater, Dr. Welner is talking about YOU!

    Read article:

  210. the banner on the top of this blog should be changed to a picture of Warren in the orange jumpsuit and handcuffs

  211. A Texan: Thank you for your post at 1:37 pm. I fully concur that Dr Werner’s words apply to the flds leaders, the AUB leaders, and any other mormon fundie polygamist leaders.

  212. So am I the only one who noticed the lack of religious undies?

  213. I noticed that too, anon

  214. I’m beginning to judge Warren’s ugliness by his mug shots. He just keeps getting uglier every time he gets moved to a new jail and gets a new mug shot.

  215. Well none of us are getting younger and he hasn’t exactly been at a health spa.

  216. I was under the impression that in prison, they issue you underwear. In fact, it’s always been one of the rules of my life that I never wanted to end up somewhere that other people made underwear choices for me.

  217. My best granny taught me pretty is as pretty does.

  218. Here are the closing arguments in Mitchell trial:

    From article: “As we have learned from Dr. Peterson and from stipulation of Sterling Allan, the defendant’s beliefs are similar to Mormon fundamentalist fringe organizations.”

    And: “When he raped her, he proved to her that no matter how much she screamed, begged and fought, he could do whatever he wanted to her and she was powerless to stop it.”

    Although this refere to polygamist Mitchell, it could as easily apply to Warren Jeffs IMO.

  219. Jury deliberations have began in trial of Mitchell, so it’s a matter of waiting for hopefully a guilty verdict.,0,981294.story

  220. Here’s CNN’s take on jury deliberations:

    From article: “Smart testified at the month long trial that he led her to a makeshift camp in the canyons above her home, “sealed” her as his spiritual plural wife and raped her.”

  221. When pictures of Raymond in the Tom Green County jail were shown over at that site that claims to be the “Truth”, he had on long underware under his orange jail costume. Makes me wonder of the religious underware are only for the rank and file and the profit doesn’t have to wear it.

  222. I was under the impression that in prison, they issue you underwear. In fact, it’s always been one of the rules of my life that I never wanted to end up somewhere that other people made underwear choices for me.

    Betty said this on December 9, 2010 at 9:09 PM

    Betty, I think they do issue underwear to prisoners, but not necessarily Mormon temple garment long johns (at least not in jails other than in Utah).

    I found your comment funny and I absolutely agree with you! I like to pick my own friends and my own underwear.

  223. Anon @10:45 that’s an interesting point. Warren has worn tee shirts and shorts and maybe he is “worldly” now. But, maybe it is also because he was extradited and had his mug shot taken before the “faithful” knew where he was being jailed and could dash over with a pair of clean temple undies for him.

  224. Betting time! I bet the Mitchell jury will decide before the weekend that he is guilty as sin. May he rot in prison for the rest of his life!

  225. As I look at the photo of Mitchell in the SL Trib A Texan linked to, it just makes me want to vomit that this disgusting creature kidnapped and repeatedly raped that beautiful and innocent 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart.

    I hope that those memories don’t haunt her for the rest of her life.

  226. I can’t believe that an attorney would say “That is why he told her not to speak to anyone, and to stay close to him, and not speak to anyone or her and her family will be killed. The final element is satisfied.”

    HER and her family would be killed? Good grief, don’t they teach proper grammar anymore?

  227. I am sorry to hear about Violet. That is sad. Happy to hear about Winston. Also following haps in Canada. Cross your fingers.

  228. Actually those who practice honor killings believe they are a part of the religion, just as blood atonement is considered part of the religion to some. If approval by the state is based only on beliefs then honor killings would be as permissible as polygamy. Also the groups they are inviting in with approval of polygamy are often the same groups that are involved in honor killings or other shia law. So how will British Columbia determine what is illegal and what is legal if they are all under the guise of religion. I noticed today that an expert testified to the lack of males between 16 and 17 in the community. If fact, in contracdiction to actual birth rates there was 30% less males in the Bountiful community. After the boys are used for underaged slave labor they are discarded. That is a human rights violation, polygamy or no.

  229. The Trib got rid of the polygamy section because it told the truth about Utah.

  230. Here’s another ignorant Utah grammar glitch from the wife (Joan Smith) of outgoing Washington Sheriff Kirk Smith –

    “Him being sheriff has given us great opportunities to meet people and go places that we wouldn’t have been able to go,” she said. “But it’s stressful. He’s had to make hard decisions every day – I’m glad he’ll get to relax and not have to carry the heavy burden of being in charge.”

    HIM being sheriff???

    The Smiths are heading off to serve on a mission from God for the LDS church. Hopefully it won’t be in the capacity of teaching foreigners how to speak English.

    HIS having been sheriff was sometimes stressful on the residents of Washington County.

    Goodbye and good riddance, Sheriff Smith! OMF

  231. I think the jury will deliberate for a short time and return the guilty verdict.

  232. Ya just gotta love it, Brian Mitchell getting his conviction today (ok – just an educated prediction) and Warren will get the news from one of his jailers.

    “Hey Warren guess what? Your little brother Brian Mitchell who follows in your footsteps just got FIVE life sentences!”

  233. Guess you might say Warren has been following in Brians footsteps, I think Brian had the idea of escaping Utah for another state with his booty under his arm first.

    Warren just did it on a grander scale. His victims number in the hundreds if not thousands.

  234. Warren Jeffs has led his people to be dishonest and it has caused unbelievable harm. We know he is not a real prophet because his predictions do not come to pass. If he had a real heart for his followers, he would take the blame for what his dictatorship has caused and encourage them to abandon all deceptions and law violations. He could use his influence for their good if he would. At some point the women are going to have to be accountable, too. What then?

  235. This is from the article about jury deliberations: “In the past, Mitchell has proclaimed that his trial would launch the apocalypse.”

    Sound familiar?

  236. Blackbird, I agree that that is their belief. But I don’t think they are documented as core parts of the Islamic holy writings. Kind of like there are lots of Catholic Italians who believe in the evil eye, but you won’t find it in any scripture. I could be wrong, and I’m not trying to condone the act, just saying that it’s more cultural and less part of the documented holy works of the religion. Blood atonement certainly is, however.

  237. I also agree that it’s a dangerous president. I guess I’m just saying there is some wiggle room there for a lawyer to make a point.

  238. “If he had a real heart for his followers, he would take the blame for what his dictatorship has caused and encourage them to abandon all deceptions and law violations.”

    I think he’s afraid they’ll stop coughing up the money they’ve been forking over to him (that they really should be using for their families, let’s face it) if he did. Besides, he liked having the authority to force 14 year old girls to have sex with him and he’s secretly hoping for a miracle so he can get back to it soon. (At least that’s my guess.)

  239. My guess is similar, Rebeckah. I think he’s completely involved in a delusion about his own importance.

  240. “If he had a real heart for his followers, he would take the blame for what his dictatorship has caused and encourage them to abandon all deceptions and law violations.”


    Nah, his ego’s too big, and besides he’s already blamed his followers for his predicament – he’s in jail because of their lack of faith.

  241. Not related to polygamy, but have you heard the Westboro Baptists are going to picket Elizabeth Edwards funeral?

    They want to hold up signs saying she is going to hell, horrible things like that.

    People were able to keep them away from another funeral by arriving early and filling up all available parking spaces, I hope they are able to block these hateful, evil monsters somehow.

  242. I think the fire dept should do a drive by with a fire hose at the ready, and flush those puppies in the sewer.

  243. Say ya think Mitchell will face the judge and sing while he gets his conviction read, which just might come down today?

  244. Ohhhh Holy Cooowwwwww

  245. I was considering joining the counter protest for that, Anon E Mouse; it’s about a two hour drive from my place. But I’m not sure that really helps. I think the media should just pretend they don’t exist and they would not get what they really want that way; their own pictures in the news.

    I think anyone who loudly asserts that someone else is now in hell has some serious work they need to do in reviewing the new testament.

  246. The jury has resumed deliberations, so now it’s a waiting game.

  247. This guy’s mug shot shows him in a striped polo shirt – not usually what an FLDS wears (they are usually plain instead of striped) so he may be an apostate. Does anyone know who this guy is?

    Birth Date: 11/11/78
    Address : 225 W APPLE AVE, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    15:36:00 12/08/10 Nelson, Brent HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    77-27-21.5 SEX OFFENDER-REGISTRY 3F 5DIS 5000.00 5000.00
    77-27-21.5 SEX OFFENDER-REGISTRY 3F 5DIS 5000.00 5000.00
    77-27-21.5 SEX OFFENDER-REGISTRY 3F 5DIS 5000.00 5000.00

  248. I read the CBS article linked above. Boy, those Westboro Baptists sound pretty scary.

  249. From the Canadian Reference Case –

  250. Verdict reached in Mitchell trial, hope it’s guilty!

  251. Stubbs a sex offender? Do tell!

  252. Mitchell is gonna be found Guilty, I dont see it any other way.

    Not even close.

  253. It’s guilty on all counts:

  254. SUCKER IS GUILTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  255. great news. perhaps this will wake up the Utah LDS to the abuses in the mormon fundie groups. Someone should let warren know about it.

  256. Excellent news. Kudos to Elizabeth and her family for their faith and perseverance, the jury, and Dr. Welner and his colleagues for this very just decision

  257. The value of women in polygynous cultures

  258. I find it interesting that the local UT courts took an ‘insanity’ pass on Mitchell, whereas the Feds took the case and …poof, sane and guilty! It’s like UT doesn’t wanna get it’s hand dirty.

    As for the Elizabeth Edward’s funeral [RIP!!]…those protesters are despicable human beings. Their ‘god’ is not rcognizable as the loving and forgiving one that I remember from my church days. How &^%$#@ presumtuous of them to say she and alll the others they protest are going to hell for not being ‘good enough’ or people with diffrent views! [End of rant]

  259. A song in honor the newly convicted “profit”:

    A note to Warren Jeffs, this songs for you too boy, you going to be joining Mitchell in the bighouse!

  260. Do you think Warren would recognize himself in Mitchell or would he just see Mitchell as a false profit, or even as a criminal?

  261. Stamp asked: Stubbs a sex offender? Do tell!

    I ran his name thru the AZ/UT data bases and nada…They show 2 in Hilldale [Daniel Barlow Jr/Willard R Black <—never heard of him] and 2 in CC [John R Jessop/Rodney Holm]. Unless he is supposed to be registered in another state.

  262. mc, maybe the problem is that he’s supposed to be registered and hasn’t.

  263. I wonder if this Richard Curtis Stubbs is the same person as the Curtis Stubbs who was the father of the baby that Willie tried to keep out of the cemetery.

  264. Yes, same Curtis Stubbs, brother to Shane Stubbs whose winter wheat was plowed under.

  265. Ruthie’s girl, do Shane and Curtis have the same mother?

  266. Yes, same mother also same mother of Ruth Stubbs.

  267. is the mother Rosie or Rebecca?

  268. Do you think Warren would recognize himself in Mitchell or would he just see Mitchell as a false profit, or even as a criminal?

    Betty said

    IMO the lost boys are your answer, Warren would see any other male as a threat to access to “plural wives”. Mitchell would have been seen as a false prophet by Warren, because only one person can hold the keys to the kingdom and priesthood, and Warren believes he holds those keys, Warren IMO see any other person or group to hold those keys as apostate, and that means Mitchell, the fundie groups as well as the Catholic & LDS Churches who claim to hold the keys.
    IMO if Warren Jeffs could have gotten a hold of Elizabeth Smart, he would have done the same with her that Mitchell did.

  269. Here’s some links on end of Mitchelll trial:

  270. Why are 20 – 30% of the men in Bountiful, British Columbia missing ?

  271. CNN Anderson Cooper interviewing Ed Smart & Elizabeth Smart on 360, no link yet on CNN website. Wonder if subject of polygamy will come up since Anderson has covered it as relates to Warren the felonious FLDS profit.

  272. Noc Anon said “Why are 20 – 30% of the men in Bountiful, British Columbia missing ?”

    The answer to that is lost boys, as posted above Warren would see extra males as a threat to access “plural wives”. The surplus males are run off-we know them as lost boys.

  273. Absolutely Texan. They have documented in the recent reference case in Canada that teenage males are taken out of school and sent to Winston Blackmore’s logging camps. If they are good workers, they may be given a wife after several years. 17 yr old girls from Bountiful who don’t agree to marry the older man chosen for them by Blackmore are sent to be cooks in the logging camps in subzero temperatures. Blackmore tells the teenage girls that their forced service in the camps can swiftly end if they would just agree to marry the man he has chosen for them….

  274. Why missing? The same reason that most teen boys were already gone from YFZ breeding ranch in Texas. Some may be off working to keep them away from the females AND to provide slave labor at a cost of little more than room and board.

    Illegal mexican laborers earn more than room and board.

  275. I have met Winston Blackmore and he was charming and he actually flirted with me, although I was probably too old for his liking (I was obviously over 35).

    He lets his followers be a tad less restrictive than Jimmy Oler’s group run by Warren Jeffs.

    Nonetheless, Winston uses and abuses his followers. The youthful boys are sent off to work in his forestry business for little or no pay and the girls are still beaten into submission to marry or work like slaves in one of his forestry (post and pole) companies.

    Some of the people in Utah (government and private) who abhor the atrocities that Warren Jeffs has perpetrated on his followers think that Winston is a wonderful man. They are blinded by Winston’s greed and evilness.

    One should remember that (although Winston was ousted) the 2 groups in Canada are cut from the same cloth as the Warren Jeffs group in Utah/Arizona.

  276. XLENT Trib post under the Mitchell Guilty story:


    JJohanson Today 04:47 PM


    I am thrilled that justice has been served for Elizabeth Smart. I know from personal experience the pain of having family members secreted away by fundamentalist Mormons who practice polygamy and other extremist beliefs.

    In this flurry of attention to a bright, lovely, talented typical Mormon girl, let’s not forget about the thousands of other bright, lovely, talented girls in Hilldale, Utah, Colorado City, Utah, Creston, B.C. Eldorado, Texas and in numerous other enclaves in the Salt Lake and Utah Valleys who are being taken from their families at young ages and being made to submit to older men who brainwash them in their perverted belief systems.

    These girls have even less choice than Elizabeth had, because, in many cases, their own families sacrifice them to these men in order to further their own status within the polygamist cults.

    I, too, south, fought, prayed, and pled for the return of my 6 nephews and nieces from 1987 – 1991. However, the State of Utah, in its Supreme Court in 1991, sentenced my nephews and nieces to lifetimes of submission, drudgery, loss of rights, isolation, and separation from a family that loved them by ruling that Vaughn Fischer, a staunch supporter of the Warren Jeffs’s Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints cult in Southern Utah, avowed polygamists and separatists, with no blood or legal ties to my family, could yank these 6 children from our family and do whatever they wanted with them.

    They did. While you imagine (and have heard some) of the worst things that happened to Elizabeth Smart, imagine it thousand fold for these young girls that are daily being turned over to polygamous marriages.

    Let us celebrate that Elizabeth Smart and her family have been vindicated in court, but do something about the thousands of other girls who do not have the resources her family does to achieve positive outcomes and normal lives.

    Janet E. Johanson
    Survivor of Polygamy


    An ode to the Feds who put Brian David Mitchell away!

    THANK YOU! And the JURY too!

  278. “Not related to polygamy, but have you heard the Westboro Baptists are going to picket Elizabeth Edwards funeral?”

    I can’t help but feel sorry for these people. They have nothing in thier lives but hate. They might as well not be alive at all.

  279. This week I can’t help but think about Jaycee Dugard and her girls.

  280. The McPedo’s of the world are uncomfortable their most recent convert found life difficult in McPedo land.

  281. Which reminds me, is that vile bile blaugh still broke?

  282. I can’t help but feel sorry for these people. They have nothing in thier lives but hate. They might as well not be alive at all.
    I’m not so sure I feel sorry about that. I, however, question their Christianity.

  283. Like many others, they dont bring a Christian message. Who are the “others” I’m talkin bout?

  284. From Canada. The same situation with missing teenaged boys as seen in Texas at the Ranch. It is really sad the way these boys are discarded. They are minors under 18 and should be in the care of a loving family. They are treated like trash to be thrown out so Daddy can have another young bride with no competition. Sick Sick Sick.

    VANCOUVER — The population of men living in B.C.’s controversial polygamous community is anything but bountiful, a court heard Thursday.

    In fact, Joseph Henrich, an expert witness who teaches at the University of British Columbia, testified that 30 per cent of the adult men who should be living in the southeastern B.C. community of Bountiful “appear to be missing.”

    The economics and psychology professor said the figures — which are included in one of two affidavits he has filed — indicates that even if the data are adjusted to account for some demographic imbalance because women live longer, at least 20 per cent of the men are missing.

    The deficit is seen specifically among 16- and 17-year-olds. Of the 22, there are nearly three times as many girls as boys — 16 girls and six boys.

    So where are all the men?

    Read more:

  285. Its easy – its called “Plygger math”.

    They only allow so many pedophiles, those with a brain are asked to leave.

  286. The problem with those numbers is that the pool is too small to get a true statistical comparison. The smaller the statistical pool the greater the chance for statistical anomalies to occur. It’s like taking a particularly warm summer and using it as proof positive of global warming.

  287. Although I’m pleased with the guilty verdict for BDM I’m not sure if the jury got this one right for the right reasons.

    Was the verdict about something being stolen from the patriarch Ed Smart or was it about something being stolen from Elizabeth?

  288. Ruthies Girl; I think that is definitely an element of this, and a crucial difference in this case and the FLDS cases. Another central point is that Elizabeth Smart was willing and able to testify.

  289. Alinusara,

    You really need to get a job in advertising or writing sound bites for political ads. You can take any fact and twist it to not be what it appears to be. The jab at global warming was a nice touch.

  290. the Westboro Baptists are not truly religious they belong to the Cult of Fred (Phelps). Where any attention, no matter how negative, is the ultimate goal….sounds like some other people around the blogs too

  291. The Westboro group is a hate group, however, if you read warren jeff’s dictations he expresses hate towards: the apostates, the LDS, US society at large, his enemies, less faithful flds, people of a different skin color, etc, etc. What you do not hear and do not see is love, compassion and service to those who are not his faithful suckups.

  292. Al, it doesn’t matter what they call themselves — they reveal and dispense hatred. It appears to be all their lives are based around. And that’s why I feel sorry for them — it’s no life at all.

    As for the “small statistical group”, you are once again revealing your ignorance. No, this is not an “anomaly” but it is a verifiable sign of the damage of polygyny. Males and females are born and survive in basically equal numbers — so the fact that there are approximately 30% fewer males than there should be is statistically notable AND bears no relation to claiming a particularly hot summer day is proof of global warming.

    I do admire the way you worked two logical fallacies into one sentence, though. You produced a red herring for the evidence that males are being ejected from the community AND pulled out an ad hominem against scientists studying global warming. Very smoothly done.

  293. No al – his sample size was sufficient- based on a great deal of data from africa, where up to 50% of the population may be polygamous

  294. guys, arguing with alin10 is like arguing with a brick wall.

  295. al’s wee world is the size of a bowling ball in hell.

  296. Stamp said this on December 11, 2010 at 8:29 AM
    Yes that was a well written post by J Johanson, here’s an excellent reply to that post:

    Well said, excellent post J Johanson, I hope that Elizabeth Smart was able to read this post, she is not alone in being a victim, there are others like her out there. Your post points out another problem in the the Utah state courts seem to be unable to deal with polygamy related crime, the Smart family had to get this injustice taken care of in the federal court system, the Utah court system was unable to bring justice in case of Mitchell. The Utah court system was unable to deal with Warren Jeffs, it is now up to the Texas court system to deal with Jeffs, again another court to deal with the failure of Utah’s court system. And don’t get me started on Dr.Whitehead, if it quacks like a ….

  297. Anon, true, aruging with Alin is futile. But, to me, it feels more like something less solid than a brick wall, something that does not really oppose you but still makes it impossible for you to make any headway, sweet but bland to the point where it’s nauseating. Perhaps like falling into a swimming pool full of lukewarm vanilla pudding. Yeah, that’s more the way it feels to me.

  298. Here’s an editorial from SL Trib on Mitchell trial.

    From article: “Brian David Mitchell is to be sentenced on May 25, 2011. He could be handed what I consider a fair term of life in prison.”

  299. I point out Al’s fallacies because I think casual readers should have such nonsense pointed out for them. Al is like saccherine — tastes sweet but has no nutritional value.

  300. It sounds like good ole Alinusara, needs a reality check. Please let me post her a message in hopes of bringing things back into perspective for her/his own reality…

    Love Fred.

  301. Face it Al, the pool wasnt too small, and neither were similar numbers found at Yearning For Zippers.

    In that case, the small children were at a normal ratio, but the 14 – 18 year old ratio of males to females were also skewed heavily with a much higher ratio of females to males.

    Plygger math isnt rocket science – we KNOW why they get rid of their young boys.

  302. Thank you Fred.

  303. If Utah and yes Arizona also refuse to meaningfully prosecute their criminals thus leave the overflow from their borders to other states’ taxpayers to deal with, then they ought to publicly be known for what their style of government is: THEOCRACY.

    At least Texas is leading by example.

  304. Texas, Actually kidnapping and taking girls over state lines is a federal crimes. So was taking underaged girls to Texas and trafficking them to Canada for “marriage” to married men. What is odd that when these federal crimes crossing state and international lines are done against girls in polygamy and not a girl in the mainstream Mormon church the FBI and federal courts won’t touch it. Here is a list of those federal crimes, trafficking, transporting girls of ther borders in violation of the Mann Act, money laundering, taking or sending boys over borders for slave labor a form of trafficking, imprisoning people (House of Hiding) welfare fraud etc. So why is just Mitchell being charged in federal court? Why did the FBI refuse to follow up when given names of girls taken to Canada back in 1998-2001? Why do polygamist men repeatedly use the Mann Act as a defence in court…i.e. I took her over the border for sex so you can’t determine where she was impregnated or where we had sex, why did the Federal Criminal Court refuse to take the case of the Virginia Hill AUB money laundering and fraud of over $1 million. It had to go to civil court. In this case a secret service agent admitted to assisting the AUB in theft. These are interstate and international crime organizations and that includes the Kingstons and the AUB.

  305. Failure to protect girls and boys in the polygamist crime organizations based religion is a violation of the Civil Rights Act and the constitutional amendment. All persons regardless of race or religion should be protected under color of law. For years people have run against a brick wall every time they tried to get law enforcement to do their duty under the Constitution of the United States when it involved the civil rights abuses including denial of education, sexual abuse, trafficking, coerced marriages etc. where polygamy was involved.

  306. blackbird, my only answer: I don’t know.

    There is some sort of connection with LDS and even FBI, I’ve assumed since at least back in Howard Hughes’ days.

    Wrong is wrong, dammit. And hell no I’m not delusional.

  307. msnbc is showing a new Elizabeth Smart story right now.


  309. Tony Alamo’s enforcer is to be featured on America’s Most Wanted – He gave his eight year old daughter to Alamo as a plural wife.

  310. Sick criminal SOBs

  311. S, I just wanted to take a minute to say thank you for the consistent contribution you make with informative links.

  312. #

    Tony Alamo’s enforcer is to be featured on America’s Most Wanted – He gave his eight year old daughter to Alamo as a plural wife.

    S said this on December 13, 2010 at 8:26 AM

    Amazing how much he sounds like ole Warren’s enforcer Willie the Thug, makes one wonder how many of the thugs daughters were given to Warren as playthings? IMO These two should end up as cell mates.

  313. Ditto the Kudos for S –

    Great contributions, and help compile data on stories on abuses of polygamy.

  314. Here is news on the Alamo creeps, including “Lazy eye Kolbek”

    Tony got 175 years in prison. How many years you gonna get, Kolbek?

  315. Thanks folks –
    Sons of Perdition is now available on Netflix –

  316. Has anyone else noticed that the priesthood records right around the date of Carolyn Jessop’s escape have been omitted? What’s up with that?

  317. It wasn’t until afterward that Warren advised Merrill to hide all his assets?

  318. I thought that there were some parts of the record that were held back for use in later court cases.

  319. So anyhoo a lil birdee told me there might be some more games of musical chairs out at the creek.

    Another game of Truth or Dare. Wonder if cops will be present this time too.

  320. Real cops, or the FLDS enforcer cops?

  321. Last go around, that was serious, I think there were real cops stationed at both ends of the creek ready for breakout violence.

    As I recall that was about when Warren took over and shook them up some.

  322. Stamp: As In recall that incident took place when warren sent many of the Barlow’s off to repent from afar. That was shortly after warren took over.

  323. Chemist,

    Ah yes, that was the incident. I remember there was rumblings of a hatfield / mccoy war, and for some time there was news of cops keeping a close eye on the place.

    Maybe all the attention gave Warren the cooties, and he dusted his shoes and moved to Beverly.

    YFZ, that is.

  324. I am surprised that there has not yet been a break out group, choosing a new leader. One of the Canadian women was angry about having to tithe so much for legal fees; maybe some members are made enough to not want to pay for their leader’s choice to take on child brides in a big way. And it’s an opening for the ambitious male to take over.

  325. I so get wearying of being tithed for legal fees! If that’s the deal why has it taken so long! Are the crikkers going to play my prophet is bigger than your prophet or what? And what’s with the police reference, real police or polygamy police or what?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  326. OK tell me straight out, no guessing on my part, what’s this rumor or whatever it is, Stamp?

  327. I suspect he’s said all he can already, GT.

  328. Not sure what Stamp has heard, but we have been receiving revelations that they claim are from Warren like crazy lately. He has even sent out several since he arrived in Texas. The majority of the revelations deal with purity and the closeness of the time until the wicked are “wiped” off the face of the earth. There has also been quite alot in the revelations about another purging of the half-hearted and unbelievers (perhaps this is what Stamp heard). Heads of households are to see if any under their care have any gentile ways or lack of loyalty–if they do they are to remove them from the homes. If the father does not do this, he may be sent out himself for a lack of obedience.

    All the men, women, and children that are above the age of eight years are or have been rebabtised and all ordinances (marriage, priesthood, etc) reconfirmed. We are now told we will soon be given greater blessings–even that of living Celestial oneness. I am assuming this means they will try to move the people closer to a form of the united order where all monies are turned into the storehouse and the bishop decides what the people receive back. I think that is why the massive new storehouse here in Short Creek has been built. We are also being told that the businesses are stewardships for us to run, but the profits belong to the lord. My personal take on all this is that the priesthood leaders need money and need a way to exert more control. If they do not have control of the land, perhaps they can gain control of the people’s money.

    Final item worth noting–in Priesthood meeting two days ago a revelation was read (from Warren of course) on purity in the marriage relations of husbands and wifes. Sex is to be strictly for procreation, there is to be no lust involved, the men are not to even look upon or touch their wives and priesthood garments are to be worn. The elders are supposed to answer a list of questions pertaining to this and will be judged by the “high cousel” whether they are morally clean and pure. Personal opinion again, but I think this is an effort to get the peopple to think that all the relations of the “prophet” have been very clean and pure and that there is no way he could have been doing anything wrong with the youg girls in Texas.

    At best, I see this “judging” making a lot of liars out of the people here. At worst, I see many more broken homes. Sad to me either way what men will do in an effort to maintain control.

  329. Thank you anon at 3:26 PM. I can see how the actions being considered would lead to greater control af the people and their finances. Of course warren and the other leaders would say that they are revelations to help prepare a pure group of people for the “end times” when the wicked will be swept off, etc. Very interesting situation.

  330. So does this mean polygamist cops are militia-enforcers under Willie the Enforcer? Does it mean it’s their acceptance of loss of UEP Trust? Their fairytale delusional reality always needs spelled out for me.

  331. Shocking stuff, Anon 3:26 pm. I wonder how many people or families will choose to leave now.

  332. What it makes me wonder is what is going to be public evidence in the Texas trial that Warren is terrified of.

  333. Maybe it means if you have sex with a 12 year old but it wasn’t lustful, but just to impregnate her there is nothing creepy about it

  334. Makes sense Anon, Warren is doing advance damage control since he knows what is in the evidence against him.

  335. Still no excuse for taliban.

  336. So Warren’t pretending it wasn’t for sex eh.

  337. I do not think they have completely given up on gaining back control of the trust, or at least part of it. They are still fighting over it in the courts. I think that this united order idea is a “just in case” plan that will help maintain control whether or not the trust comes back under their control.

    I’m not sure what Willie is up to these days–Bill Shapley was named to be the official church spokesman to the nation (as per one of Warren’s revelations). Willie has not given his Saturday morning “updates” on what is happening in the courts for some time now.

    I don’t know what will be brought out in the trial, but we have been told anyone reading or looking into it will loose priesthood, turn apostate and leave. Must be something they do not want the people to know about. Right now the leadership (Lyle, Wendell, etc) is putting Warren on such a high pedistal that if he were to ever get out it would be almost impossible to live up the image they have created for him. In many ways, it is to the leadership to have him in jail.

  338. meant to say “to the advantage of the leadership” to have him in jail.

  339. Interesting.

  340. when lyle was in san angelo last wednesday at the hearing for warren, he didn’t stand, didn’t bow his head, all in all, he pretty much pretended not to know the guy.

    bill shapley isn’t the greatest pick for spokesman since he married his daughter off underage to her cousin.

  341. Besides the increased stream of crazy coming from Warren and attendant mugging people for money, some are still getting booted out, and word is that its going to hit the fan.

    Oh, lots will submit and lots likely wont.

  342. The FLDS don’t appear to be in a very big hurry to have the appeals heard, Raymond just filed another Motion for Extension of Time to file his brief.

  343. Chili’s has a free desert today. It’s the Brownie Sundae.

  344. Anonymous,
    it is so very hard for those of us on the “outside” to connect to the mindset that would lead a person to submit and relinquish family especially now that so much information must be “leaking” into the communities.

    You all have my prayers that the coming days bring you strength and grace and support of family


  345. Granny, I agree with you and remind you that the porn Warren and the girls kept watching as they traveled across the country wasn’t for erotic reasons either. Yeah, right.

  346. The wicked probably will be “wiped” off the face of the earth as soon as Warren is sent to Huntsville Prison.

  347. Sex is to be strictly for procreation, there is to be no lust involved, the men are not to even look upon or touch their wives and priesthood garments are to be worn.

    Sounds like Warren will do anything to keep people from being tender and loving toward each other so that he can keep them loving only him.

    Talk about worshiping a false profit!

  348. So, Warren, who claimed he WASN’T the prophet, just a sinful man, [if memory serves] is now on major revelation overloaded in his Texas jail cell? Is he suddenly ‘the prophet’ again? Or, as I prefer, still just a delusionally creepy man with control isssues?

  349. so, any bets on whether or not warren will have a texas attorney in tow tomorrow for his next hearing with Judge Walther?

  350. None of ’em want their reputation tied up with a loser, even for a price?

  351. I bet you a stick of gum that he won’t have a Texas lawyer tomorrow. Somehow I don’t think Texas lawyers are as dumb as Utah lawyers who tend to think that a jury will acquit because of their heritage and genealogy. Who’d be brazen enough to take the case for this loser in Texas where polygamy doesn’t rule?

  352. But … then again many lawyers will take any case if there is enough money involved. Is this the reason for the sudden shakeup in Short Creek?

  353. Every time I look at Warren’s Texas mug shot I think of the “Where’s Waldo” guy. Warren just needs a knit cap and he’s Waldo.

    Maybe we should start calling Warren Warldo.

  354. From Brooke’s Twitter Account this evening :

    Overheard: “Plural marriage is like a kaleidoscope, where everyone is working together to create one beautiful image.” #polygamy

    Gag – she needs to stay on her sabbatical

  355. Is sex without lust even possible?

  356. Anon 5:08 I don’t know what will be brought out in the trial, but we have been told anyone reading or looking into it will loose priesthood, turn apostate and leave. Must be something they do not want the people to know about.


    Thank you for posting, Anon. I hope this doesn’t put you in any kind of personal danger. It’s like reading dispatches from remote Afghan tribal villages – so hard to believe that people are living under this kind of fear and pressure here in America.

  357. From Brooke’s Twitter Account this evening :

    Overheard: “Plural marriage is like a nightmare, where everyone is worried together the leader created one disgusting image.”

    This is why Warren Waldo doesnt want his followers watching the evidence of his crimes and his attendant convictions …. Because they will be sickened by Warrens creepy grin when he is wedding 12 yr olds, and he will be proven who he really is, a McSicko pedophile.

    As if they didnt know already tho.

    Yeah, those with a concious WOULD be apostate to his brand of crazy. Warren blew it bigtime and doesnt want them to know.

    And the part of submitting to a re-baptism by Lyle. Sorry, but thats extra creepy right there!

    Thats going to turn a lot of people off!

  358. mogwai, it is for the female.

  359. If my preacher told me not to listen to any news about his trial, I would be more sure of his guilt, not his innocence. If they are dumb enough to go for that, they deserve what they get.

    It’s bad enough having sex with a child of 12. Then add that you do that with some of your other sex partners for witnesses. Then – wait,there’s more! – you make a recording of it so you can reminisce while you are on the run from the FBI. It just gets better and better. And boy, if he were telling me not to enjoy sex with my wife and then I heard he had a rape tape, that would REALLY make me mad! So, yeah, I guess he doesn’t want them listening, but it amazes me that anyone obeys.

  360. heck betty, he was on the run from the fbi when he married the 12 year old in the first place and at the same time he married his underage daughter and underage niece off to older men. both of those men have now taken up residence in a tdc facility.

  361. dang! This flds soap opera just keeps going, producing story lines, subplots, etc. The unfortunate thing is that this is real and people lives are being turned upside down based on the delusions of a single convict. I hope many flds members will finally decide to get off the merry-go round. There is a better life outside of the flds. That may be why warren, etal do not want the apostates to hang around the crick, they don’t want the flds to see that there can be a better life without warren in it.

  362. come on – Brooke did not really tweet that?!

  363. Just to be scrupulous – we don’t actually KNOW there is a sex tape – do we?

    Isn’t it inferred from a) rumor, b) the fact that Texas has thus far only prosecuted on the basis of DNA evidence and the reports out suggest the DNA evidence is for a 14 year old’s baby and c) because the the charge is aggravated sexual assault? It may be that the evidence in this charge is the “wedding” photo itself?

  364. Chemist – I couldn’t agree with you more

  365. HHG


    Just a little “truth in advertising” correction….

  366. There are accounts from credible people the existence of the tape of Warren raping the 12 yr old. It was found on him in the pink caddy when he was arrested outside Vegas – yanno that place they call “Sin City”…

  367. So is it an audio tape or a video tape?
    And Stamp – it was a RED caddy – that forbidden color!

  368. I agree with Nocturnal Anon, life has been so nice without Brooke Adams’ pro-polygamy spin on things. It’s a real bummer that she’s back.

  369. still no lawyer


  370. Seems the tape is audio but I won’t swear to that. Also there are hidey rooms built within the YFZ homes but I’ve not seen them so won’t swear to that either.

    Still wondering what’s become of the real baby of the girl who brought in the fake.

  371. There are accounts from credible people the existence of the tape of Warren raping the 12 yr old. It was found on him in the pink caddy when he was arrested outside Vegas – yanno that place they call “Sin City”…


    I thought I read somewhere that journalist Jon Krakauer claimed there was a sex tape, and he described it as complete with “grunts” and other sounds.

    While he is usually credible, how would he know about it, let alone get to hear it. And if it is only an audio tape, how could they prove it was Warren? I think Texas will be using incontrovertible DNA evidence, as in the other trials.

    After reading in Warren’s own words about how he watched motel porn night after night, I believe he has kinky sexual cravings which he doesn’t want people to know about, let alone his followers.

  372. still no lawyer


    Is he going to drag his feet and “answer them nothing,” then claim he isn’t getting fair treatment by the court system?

  373. Well the bad guys won one today, federal judge halted sell of berry knoll, holy cow! Is this federal judge aware of the complete picture of what the FLDS is?

  374. Has to be a stalling tactic with no lawyer today for felonious profit Warren Jeffs. But the article stated he hoped to have one by weeks end, wonder which Texas lawyers going to take this losing case?

  375. So Wright said many Texas attorneys declined to take the case. Eh.

    What isn’t he saying?

    Did they ask for pro bono, freebie, so Warren could get turned down for show?


    They think they’re smart enough to jack with Texas and Judge Walther hmmmmm?

    As we say here: Don’t mess with Texas.

  376. I betcha this judge can appoint Warren an attorney to pay.

  377. What, no fundyundies, Warren?

    Anyway. Appears that federal judge is clueless or playing clueless take your pick, re the facts, UEP trust. But that’s his job I guess.

    Once he’s reviewed, one has to assume he’d tell Utah to carry on.

  378. Hey Anon @ 9:38 PM you owe me a stick of gum!

  379. The tape may be used for the trial and / or bad acts.

    Surely, there is plenty of evidence of his pedo wrongdoing.

  380. New social science journal article just released last week on Sexual Abuse in Mormon Fundamentalist communities – I hope to have it shortly.

  381. Yet another study which indicates that women in monogamous marriages have higher levels of marital satisfaction than women in polygamous marriages do – this study just published last month

  382. I’m in a monogamous marriage for the past 26 years and given that my ex didn’t subscribe to monogamy I can attest that monogamy is preferable. 😉

  383. I heard a rumor that the Mormon Mafia in St. George has been instructed to “take care” of these guys like Jeffs that have brought all this heat down on them. He probably better be careful in jail.

  384. We must keep Mr Jeffs alive and well so that all that evidence can be dragged out into the fresh air.

  385. Denise74, have you ever been inside a Texas county jail? It’s not a place where you’d be real worried about getting hurt by another inmate, especially Warren, he’s got a cell all to himself.

  386. I was just saying within the blood atonement crowd, they are pretty mad at how this has screwed up a pretty lucatrive money maker and someones gonna pay.

  387. From today’s pre-trial hearing for Warren –

    “Mr. Wright, has your application for temporary admission to the bar been approved yet?” Walther asked the lawyer.

    Wright said it had not, and Walther sent him to the gallery and from then on addressed Jeffs directly.

    So, if Richard Wright can’t practice law in Texas, does that mean that he can’t charge Warren for his services-to-date?

    Because, if he did charge, wouldn’t that open him up for being in legal trouble for practicing law without a license?

  388. Sorry for the typ-it should have said mad, not made. Locals say King Willie took 10 of his enforcers to Texas to get instructions on how to take care of things.

  389. Denise, what or who is the source of your information ?

  390. “To Texas for instructions” on how to handle people out to get Warren and his posse?

  391. BTW Warrens posse is dwindling down, every one that went to trial so far is cooling his heels in solitary confinement.

  392. What I think is funny, is Warren tells them to put both hands over their ears, sing LA LA LA LA LA LA LA and with the other free hand (?), pass on their life savings.

    Guess what, Warren, they are human! Only two hands!

    They are gonna watch you go to trial if they have to pay for it!!!

  393. I doubt that even Willie is dumb enough to try anything while Warren is in jail or walking between the Rangers on his way to and from jail. As for Lyle and the others, who knows. All I know is that the choice of Bill Shapley for spokesman is one of the dumber moves they’ve made in a while.

  394. FLDS v. Rangers, I’ll place my bet on the Rangers.

  395. Here’s a link on Jeffs from a TV station in San Angelo,TX.

  396. Why would anyone in his right mind choose Shapley for a spokesperson when he gave his underage daughter away in marriage and she bolted from the cult ???

  397. Interesting the Eldorado Success Newspaper reported that a 14 year old boy from YFZ was seriously injured and flown to San Angelo hospital by air, that the FLDS have turned the lights on at the YFZ temple of doom, and that a grand jury has been meeting over financial affairs of FLDS/YFZ has taken no action so far.

    If the lights on on at the Temple of Doom, has it’s bed room been placed back in use? What of the grand jury? The injured boy is now out FLDS control in San Angelo hospital, will there be injury to child charges?

  398. How was the boy injured???

  399. According to the Eldorado Success, the boy’s injury involved a front-end loader. Sound familiar? Why do they endanger children by having them use heavy equipment?

    I wonder if OSHA will get involved. That would be nice.

  400. If the boy had instead been female it’s unlikely SHE would get outside medical help, probably pregnant.

    US and State laws don’t apply to FLDS, so far. Boys are throwaways, free labor. At least however if the law went looking they already know about the hideyhole hidden rooms there.

  401. My info was from a close friend who is still in the FLDS. I think the trip was not to “hit” Jefs but to make him tell where all the money is and “where the bodies are buried.” Jeffs should be praying he gets a long prison sentence because he does not want to get out and face the FLDS mafia back in Utah.

  402. He sold that chunk of UEP land and put 4 mil in his pocket, as I recall Willie acted as a bootleg RE broker on the deal.

    Four mil is a lot of change.

  403. Apparently Lindsey Barlow, a known FLDS enforcer was in attendance at Warren’s hearing this past Wednesday.

  404. Someone call OSHA if that has not already been done.

  405. As CHAPS said: Four mil is a lot of change.

    Syphoned off by a greedy prophet, and pals…and now by lawyers. Guess they are looking for new sources of ‘revenue’…aka bleeding the faithful. Kinda brings a new meaning to the old charity addage…give until it hurts!! Any screams of “ouch” yet, from the crick???

  406. Surely the hospital called CPS at the very least.

  407. Let’s hope so anonymous. I will be calling OSHA myself to be absolutely sure that something happens …

  408. And, since it happened in Texas…vs UT/AZ..there will probably be a REAL investigation vs, and not a quick sweep under the desert rug.

  409. Texas is a whole different America isn’t it. One under the US Constitution.

  410. As a side note—- When I was in London, I had to laugh after we passed a building marked …TEXAS EMBASSY. At first it didn’t even register…oh look another embassy…. Then I started to laugh. It’s really a restaurant [Tex-Mex just off Trafalgar Sq]. I plan to dine there on my next trip! From their website:
    Texans consider their state a country, but from 1836 to 1845 it actually was a country called The Republic of Texas. The Republic set up an Embassy right here in London.

  411. From the Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy –

  412. Interesting if true that enforcers are out to get Warren to tell where the cash is stashed, it means that Warrens rule over the FLDS has ended, he is no longer seen as “profit” by the true believers or it could represent a power struggle that’s not yet over. Perhaps the FLDS read the posts on this blog comparing Warrens lunatic behavior compared to the recently convicted Mitchell, remember Mitchell’s strange behavior was singing in court room, while Warren exhibits even more bizarre behavior praying until his knees bled, banging his head on the wall, refusing to eat, and being forced feed to save life, so IMO Warren Jeffs is far more insane than Mitchell ever was.
    Perhaps the FLDS rank & file are finally catching on that they have been duped!

  413. NBC Dateline will have one hour special on Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, don’t know if they will look at the polygamy angle of Mitchell’s criminal actions.

  414. CNN’s attempted WSJ interview with an extended Bill Shapley Interview.

  415. I think that the FLDS are finally facing up to the fact that Warren Jeffs will never see the outside of a Texas prison cell. Before he was extradited to Texas, there was always a chance that he would eventually go free. The chances of him now ever seeing the outside of a jail in Texas are virtually nil. The FLDS have decided to move on, apparently with Bishop Lyle and a new spokesperson taking Willie’s place, Bill Shapley.

  416. A Texan: Interesting if true that enforcers are out to get Warren to tell where the cash is stashed, it means that Warrens rule over the FLDS has ended, he is no longer seen as “profit” by the true believers or it could represent a power struggle that’s not yet over. Perhaps the FLDS read the posts on this blog comparing Warrens lunatic behavior compared to the recently convicted Mitchell, remember Mitchell’s strange behavior was singing in court room, while Warren exhibits even more bizarre behavior praying until his knees bled, banging his head on the wall, refusing to eat, and being forced feed to save life, so IMO Warren Jeffs is far more insane than Mitchell ever was.
    Perhaps the FLDS rank & file are finally catching on that they have been duped!


    It would be nice if that were so, but more likely someone else will step in to fill the power void, and it will be same sh*t, different day for the rank and file. Why? Because those people are not used to thinking for themselves, for too many generations their lives have been micromanaged, they don’t know how to live without someone telling them what to do every day.

  417. They cannot all be total dingleberries — can they?

  418. Thanks Yukon Jack, good find. That was quite a perpwalk for Warren.

    Prison jammies, leg shackles and all.

    Perhaps this is the reason they are falling apart – he was probably telling them he wouldnt be extradited back to Texas, because he heard it from God.

    And that Shapley nut. WOW is all I gotta say. See there, the prophet is in prison and this bozo is out at the front gate saying underage marriage is what the did yesterday, and evidently, plan to do tommorrow.

    Texas, the message hasnt sunk in yet! I’d get every child out of there and close down that pedo perv kiddie sex commune down!

  419. “Perhaps the FLDS rank & file are finally catching on that they have been duped!”

    Not a chance! We can hope for a few… but not many.
    Just forget trying to convince the elders – meaning both men and women.

    No matter how many trials, how many raids, or how many jailed, Mormon polygyny is not going away – certainly not in our lifetime. The whole world would first have to come to the belief that all religion (i.e., belief in the super-natural) deceives and dupes humanity. Don’t think so.

    At this point in history, (and putting it simplistically) our main thrust must be to protect the innocent against abuse and SOMEHOW get the young educated enough to feel they can successfully resist and then thrive outside their religious indoctrination. Right now, they don’t understand they have a real choice.

    Texas is trying.
    (Ahh! … a pun)

  420. Jeffs should be charged with rape for every baby born to an underage girl since he took over in 2002. Isn’t there any way to find out how many babies were born in CC/Hildale? Surely, there must be some birth certificates somewhere. Anyone got any ideas how to find out?

  421. Not only that but where do all those babies with the genetic disease or stillborn go? You don’t see many deformed kids walking around CC. Doesn’t anyone else think it is a little suspecious that those deformed babies are never seen again? They aren’t in the town cemetery, that’s for sure.

  422. Birth marriage and death records? Social security? Genealogists’ nightmare? Who is a legal US citizen? Drivers’ licensing? Insurance, taxation? How do those people get welfare without collusion from behind a desk?

  423. How does that FLDS clinic operate while receiving state and US taxpayer funding?

  424. Wow- excellent question!!! I never thought of that. If they want to get welfare, shouldn’t they have to list who is the mother and all the kids of that mother? There is the smoking gun right there for all the cops investigating this. It is either an accurate record or welfare fraud but it is also important documentation about who is who and how many babies are being born to underage girls. Still don’t know about where all those deformed infants have gone????

  425. If those deformed children were cremated in the FLDS cement kilns, its likely all those babies are scattered about in the concrete they pour on various jobs. They could be all over the place.

    Who is pouring YOUR concrete this week?

    pretty creepy thought. But those babies are somewhere.

  426. Those in power are not out to get Warren–he is too valuable in prison. The faithful still regard him as the prophet, and when the revelations are read in church, the people have unamiously voiced acceptance of the revelation as coming from god through Warren the prophet.

    Since Warren has had the revelaiton he would soon be among the faithful performing marriages again, I wonder what is going to happen in the next year or two when he does not.

    btw, babies that die here, even with defects are buried in the baby cemetary–they are not cremated. Parents are taught they will have the chance to raise that child in the next life so they are very careful not to deform or harm the body in any way. Yes, there is a lot of crap that happens out here, but cremating babies is certainly not one of them.

  427. There have not been any burials in the baby cemetery with the exception of well publicized accidents of illnesses. Babies are being disposed of and no one wants to admit it. When you say cemetery -which one are you talking about? It certainly is not the Carling baby and infant cemetery or the Hildale cemetery, so where are you saying they are buried. It is not in those two, they have had none recently.

  428. I would look at the “other” unoffical cemetery and the one way out of town near the cave.

  429. Think about it….you have a 14 year old girl that gives birth to a stillborn or worse, a deformed interbreed baby, you can’t bury the little one in the cemetery, it will direct people to an underage pregnancy also called a rape. So burial is a major issue the FLDS deals with in special out of the way places.

  430. Where is the cemetary outside of town near the cave ? In what town ?

  431. Colorado City

  432. Well if the birth happens at the clinic that is now behind closed gates, they could be disposing of problems right on the clinic property.

  433. Too bad some of these young girls didn’t have the courage to tell how the clinic disposes of dead babies. Surely all teens in this town, either boy or girl, know who is pregnant who had a miscarriage who had a deformed baby -and if there are no funerals then WTF. Someone needs to talk about dead babies and this is a good place to do it -anonymousely.

  434. we need an ex flds anon to give us intel on this …

  435. Some of you might find this book of interest – Women of Principle, by Dr Janet Bennion. This book describes how the women of the AUB derive their satisfaction from their relationships with women and children in the group rather than from their relationships with their husbands. A very interesting read.

  436. I will eat crow if any of this about babies is true; however, I live here in Colorado City, I am still in the church, go to all the meetings, etc. Although I do not believe in the doctrine or leadership,I want to maintain my family ties and I certainly do not protect wrong when I see it. Those who say there have been no burials recently, that may be true. But do you know of any births of stillborn children lately either? I am willing to bet you do not. Folks out here may lie about the age of the mother or who the mother is, but they do not destroy dead infants. This is based on personal knowledge having lived here all my life and having known some who were unforunate to have lost infants. There are many wrong and crimminal activities that happen out here, but destroying the evidence of underage marriages when stillborn or deformed is not one of those activities.

  437. Come on somebody. Tell it like it is. Help those too powerless to help themselves.

  438. If it was true that stillborn babies were simply discarded, East would know and would tell us. Ask East Texas.

  439. I am inclined to believe anonymous –
    the whole idea of discardable babies sounds like something out of a bad horror movie

  440. Anon 4:06 pm – what is your spiritual orientation at this time, if anything ? do you still wear the clothing to “fit in” ?

  441. I’m in agreement with anon at 4:06. It jives with other stuff I’ve heard.

  442. Thanks for being here and posting Anon @4:06. Please feel free to drop by and let us know how things are in the Twin Cities anytime, but also, please be careful not to get caught as we wouldn’t want anything to happen to you.

  443. i think denise74 is being deliberately inflammatory about something which there is not only no evidence for, but that people who actually know and have nothing to hide, have stated doesn’t happen and goes against flds beliefs. Lets move on

  444. Thanks, Anonymous 4:06. I, for one, find your experienced voice here most welcome. What you just said fits exactly with my personal experience and understanding – though I am no longer privy to the inner circle. I have heard your authentic voice of reason elsewhere and I know you’ve heard mine, perhaps under a different moniker. I am happy you are participating here as a knowledgeable adult. You are much closer to current events than any of us.

    I hope you and your family are safe under what must be tenuous circumstances.

    And I’m sure you will not have to eat crow! 😉

  445. I agree with Anon 5:24 about the inflammatory nature of denise74’s posts. Enough!

  446. One wonders why there was an outbreak of deformed children, now there is no news of any.

    Somethings going on. The genes didnt change with Warrens majic undies.

  447. Yes, I still wear the clothing, go to the meetings, work on the projects, and was rebabtised and reconfirmed along with all the rest of the flds.

    Yes E. Texas, I believe we have communicated before–I hope all is well with you.


  448. Chaps, the deformed children came from the Barlows and Jessops intermarrying exclusively. They have since diluted the gene pool from those families, look at all the Jeffs running around. I think the Barlows and Jessops have married enough other surnames to help that problem end on it’s own. That’s not to say it won’t crop up again, but with the extra families in the mix, it isn’t as prevalent.

  449. Seems to me they don’t do the BMDs until/unless it’s convenient for some reason.

  450. Any word, how is the FLDS child who was taken to the hospital at San Angelo?

  451. Wow, iitmoc, you give me hope here, I also live in the crick, I believed I was the only one here that saw through the stuff that is going on out here….It’s amazing and painful to watch, but I too, can’t fathom cutting my family ties..I travel to Phoenix and back quiet often, and I’m considering just taking the plunge and moving to Phoenix, it’s going to have to be a fact of life eventually, better sooner than later it feels like.

  452. iitmoc, great to see you here – glad you are well

  453. With over 100 surnames in the FLDS community there is certainly no reason for Barlows and Jessops to continue procreating with each other now that they know that that is what causes genetic defects. Contrary to popular belief, there is more than enough DNA in the FLDS community to maintain a population without excessively dangerous levels of inbreeding. Thanks anon 4:06 for the inside scoop. Please don’t allow rude posters to run you off these boards. Lots of posters make comments that are uncalled for and best left ignored.

  454. I too welcome anon and value her opinion, however, it is simply not accurate. My sister, a docotr in St. george, Utah has seen lots of deformed kids brought into local clinics but you never see them wandering around the creek. If what anon says is true, why does the clinic in CC has a security fence around it with security cameras and no one can get in without authorization. Lets keep it real folks, inbreeding does not just go away and babies born without part of a brain seem to disappear. I have been to the creek many times and it is a very very scary place. Maybe anon can say why there is a special cemetery with unmarked graves by the Bishops warehouse behind the health clinic.

  455. I don’t have Flora’s book to refer too, but I believe she mentioned babies being buried behind the Uncle Fred Clinic behind the gate.

    Shortcreek is surround by a desert and I great burial ground for many things.

    I do not believe in the cremation crap.

  456. I confused…I thought no radio, TV, newspapers, magazines or internet was allowed in Colorado City for fear of learning about the outside world. If so, how is anon who says she lives there managing to join us in this blog? Maybe I’m suspicious but…perhaps someone who is praising that place is trying to steer the conversation away from the truth? P.S. Don’t let the old man catch you on that computer.

  457. Don’t believe that there are no radio, TV, etc in the Crick. I was there this summer and there’s plenty of it. Those kids are internet savvy. From what I hear, Willie’s boys are trying to teach him to use the computer so he won’t remain ignorant for his whole life.

  458. Gates and walls are being built up around all the houses now. It’s as much to keep the FLDS in as it is to keep the apostates out. They don’t want anyone, including their neighbor to know what they are doing.

  459. Fumarase deficiency causes extreme levels of retardation. Most of their brain is missing, causing the average IQ to be around 25. Someone with this condition cannot walk and would need constant care. Therefore, they would not be wandering aimlessly around town by themselves. They probably don’t live very long either. Down Syndrome victims rarely live beyond their Thirties and that condition is peanuts compared to fumarase deficiency. Didn’t Carolyn Jessop have a son with this or a similar condition?

  460. @D.J

    I can verify iitmoc’s statements, I don’t know who your doctor friend is, and if were going to go around here and be suspicious of everyone, then, why don’t you give us the name of that doctor friend? So, we can verify…So much crap goes on around here, that is a fact, but I know for a fact that the sanctity of the children (babies) is a very real doctrine among us. I don’t know where all the deformed baby crap comes from, sure, there are some of the children around here with the fumerase deficiency, and I know a few families that have some handicapped in variable degrees among them, they are not killing them, and if you don’t see them around, perhaps your not out here enough, besides, I don’t imagine you take your handicapped children to school with you….I know Genie Zitting and Nutuma work with a lot of them, and do therapy etc..It sounds like one of Floras hallucinations again..I don’t for a minute support her lies, there are many good people out here, very loving families I have seen, that is why it is hard to see them shammed as they are. Again, some things are definitely not right, but the babies being born by the hundreds deformed and then cremated just plain and simply is not true. As far as a graveyard behind Uncle Freds, I’ve been up there a hundred times, and I’ve never seen it, there’s a mountain right behind the clinic, where would they put the graveyard? I know the reason the fence is there is to control access, and facilitate security, so that they can’t just walk in and take the records…I have no idea how effective that would be if they were determined, but I guess that’s the reason behind it.

  461. Granny, not sure of the condition, but he was taken to Shannon Hospital because that’s where AirMed1 flies.

  462. Beavis, Carolyn’s son had a cancer of some sort on his spine.

  463. The no T.V. thing has gone out the window, I believe. Last time I was in St George I saw them buying Blue Rays at Walmart. I don’t even have a blue ray player and I’m not forbidden to own one. I have also seen them in the Mesquite casinos, which are filled with T.Vs. Maybe they were breaking the rules but I doubt it. The Walmart had many FLDS customers and they weren’t being the least bit discrete about shopping for Blue Ray DVDs.

  464. Kruger, are you sure you are not seeing folks from Centennial?

  465. cement, the CP folks wear prairie dresses, but not the plain ones like the FLDS. I’ve seen both varieties in WalMart and you can tell which group they belong to. The CP kids go to the public high school there in the Crick.

  466. Who’s this ‘they’ who would “walk in and take records”? Why aren’t all clinics and hospitals and docinaboxes everywhere security fenced the keep ‘they’ out?

  467. Where is this reverence for babies when 12 year old girls are impregnatated, or 12 year old boys are put to work as free labor on construction sites, and heavy equipment? That’s all quite medieval, in addition to being criminal.

  468. I noticed the comment “Sex is to be strictly for procreation, there is to be no lust involved, the men are not to even look upon or touch their wives and priesthood garments are to be worn.”

    I have a number of issues with this. If a pregnant wife needs help bathing for her safety, are people going to be asked by the high priesthood about it and made to feel guilty? What will happen is the innocent will be villified over non-issues like this, and the truly guilty will be hypocritically put on a pedestal.

    Seeing a little clevage is not to be compared with thinking someone is unworthy of their family and desiring in your heart to have someone elses family so you can “teach them right” I would say buying Sport Illurated Swimsuit Edition is trivial compared to that. I don’t think lusting in your heart as Jesus told us not to do referse only to viewing curves. I think that is mild compared to wanting another family to set straight. No amount of sugar coating purity and wearing tents to cover the curves can cover the stench of that crime before the ruler of the universe. It is far worse than admiring someone elses form.

    More importantly, that is no defense against marrying young. “The gentiles just don’t understand that we do it the pure way.”

  469. If this appears twice, sorry. I forgot to include my name, so I think it hit the garbage.

    I noticed the comment “Sex is to be strictly for procreation, there is to be no lust involved, the men are not to even look upon or touch their wives and priesthood garments are to be worn.”

    What will happen is the innocent will be vilified over a non-issue such as assisting a pregnant wife with her baths for her safety, while the truly guilty will be put on high pedestals.

    I think admiring a few curves, even inappropriately, is nothing compared to desiring another person’s familty so you can teach them right. I don’t think Jesus telling us not to lust after other meant only admiring curves inappropriately. I think that is trivial compared to desiring someone elses family. I am aware of statements like “— is not teaching their family right; I think he ought to lose his family”. That is a far worse moral crime to state that than buying magazines wrapped in brown paper bags. (And no, I have never done that.)

    Final point. Wearing tents to cover your form does not make marrying 12 year olds right.

  470. I was harrassed trying to get my own family’s records from the clinic, so you are right; they don’t want people getting the records. And I did not go there with intent to cause a stir. I hadn’t yet gotten involved with any news media, any internet site. My only crime was telling Lyle I was done. So they can’t claim I was out to cause a problem. I actually wanted to get the records before the people at the clinic knew what I had told Lyle, so there would never be an issue and I could do it without causing a stir, but it was too late.

  471. Someone is not exactly telling ALL of the truth. Besides making 12 year old girls have sex with 50 year old men, Jeffs closed down all the schools so where exactly do kids go to school> Nowhere. Teen boys are kicked out so the old fools can have sex with kids, molestation is rampant, welfare is overwhelming, bleeding the beast is a way of life so I ask you…is it unbelievable to think babies are put to sleep and buried outside of town? Children under 8 have no soul and according to Warren Jeffs they are not worthy of being buried in the town cemetery with everyone else. This is why the Centennial Park folks had enough of this crap and moved away and started their own school which is very good. CC/Hildale people are run by a bunch of perverts, thieves, and psycho’s that wouldn’t think twice about putting a baby to sleep, especially if it is a boy.

  472. The Centennial folks moved away long before Warren. It was Winston’s group that got fed up with Warren. The Centennial folks got fed up with the Barlows.

  473. Didn’t the CP people leave over the 1 man rule doctrine?

  474. It seems like a group always breaks away after a change in leadership. Winston Blackmore broke away when WSJ took over. The CParkers and the Nielson/ Naylor group broke away when Rulon Jeffs took over. The AUB broke away when Leroy Johnson took over, etc. etc. etc. dating back to the original succession crises that followed the murder of Joseph Smith Jr.

    I think that was part of WSJs strategy of reassigning families. If he kicked out a bunch of families they could start a new church, but a bunch of single men and boys could not very easily start their own polygamous church with few to zero women. No other group will take them all in and add more competition for their own women. Their only hope would be to convert droves of LDS girls, and that isn’t gonna happen in this day and age.

  475. Positive. FLDS. I know the difference.

  476. Why is it that things only get interesting here when I have no free time?

  477. Carolyn Jessop’s son Harrison had a malignant tumor of his spinal cord which was resected when he was a neonate.
    This is a condition which is unrelated to fumarase deficiency. Please note that although the FLDS have the highest incidence of fumarase deficiency in the world, this genetic defect is by no means common in the group according to Dr Tarby. Children with this disorder are non – ambulatory and have mental retardation and seizure disorder, so you would not see them out and about, so to speak.
    Here is a link to the FLDS fumarase deficiency abstract written by Drs Kerrigan and Tarby on their 8 fumarase deficiency patients from Short Creek – I have the full text article if anyone is interested – just email the administrators who can forward my copy of the full text medical journal article to you as a PDF.;2-Y/abstract

  478. What this community needs so they can enjoy their religion and a free life without strife is for some stron FLDS women to stand up and say -enough, no more marriages of underage girls. It is rape and it is sick and older women need to protect their young and stand tall and speak out. We cannot get to heaven if we allow children to be victims. Warren Jeffs was an anomoly, he was sick and was a pervert who molested little girls. We need to stand up and speak out.

  479. Do that and your children will go to another mother and you won’t see them again.

  480. Park Model said : “What this community needs so they can enjoy their religion and a free life without strife is for some stron FLDS women to stand up and say -enough, no more marriages of underage girls.”

    Park Model, is underage marriage still taking place in Colorado City? I had heard that there had not been an underage marriage in over 2 yrs –

  481. @parkmodel… you are wishing upon a star.

    FLDS women are caught between the veritable rock and a hard place. Cement is correct.

    1. First of all, there are lots of strong women among the FLDS. Without further discussion, you just have to take my word for it.

    2. Secondly, it hardly matters how individually strong any of them are; they are unable (without dire repercussions) to get together as a “group” of women to organize such an uprising. (It WAS possible before Warren but back then there was little need.)

    3. SO, how do you think they are going to “stand tall and speak out” under the “no gathering” restrictions? Such a movement would be hard to keep secret from the leadership / enforcers – there’s always a scared tattletale in the mix. It would be thwarted and crushed before it could hardly get off the ground.

    4. This is where cement is absolutely correct: the protective women would lose their children – forever and ever, amen. Better to be with them than on the outside with NO visibility or influence AT ALL.

    6. Never forget… they are all victims, all slaves — all the children, nearly all the women and most of the men.

    So… dream on. I would love such a dream to come true.

  482. E Texas:
    1. First of all, there are lots of strong women among the FLDS. Without further discussion, you just have to take my word for it.

    2. Secondly, it hardly matters how individually strong any of them are; they are unable (without dire repercussions) to get together as a “group” of women to organize such an uprising. (It WAS possible before Warren but back then there was little need.)


    Don’t the women outnumber the men? So there’s no reason they couldn’t decide, as a group, to just go “on strike” and run things they way they want to run them.

    I suppose the threat of eternal damnation over their heads is one thing that keeps them in check.

    I believe the statement that there are strong women in the FLDS, too bad apparently not enough of them to say “We’re in charge now, you men go sit down and keep sweet.”

  483. Nocturnal Anon: I think that the FLDS are finally facing up to the fact that Warren Jeffs will never see the outside of a Texas prison cell.


    I got the opposite conclusion after listening to their new spokesman Shapely say that he wasn’t worried about Warren’s fate because God is going to “deliver him,” meaning set him free. So they either believe he will be found innocent, or the End Times are upon us and God is going to break down the prison walls and deliver him in that manner.

    It’s going to be interesting if/when he’s found guilty.

  484. I’ll admit, my feelings have gone back and forth being mad at the women [and men] for being unable to stand up and protect themselves and their children to a feeling of compassion for the mess they’ve been dragged into. And it took me awhile to get there! With all the terrific info on this board, and the people inside and out, who are willing to shsre [thank you!], parts of their current and former lives there, I’ve come to a better understanding of what it’s like to be trapped and scared [too
    dramatic?] inside your own community.
    Even though I do not agree with much of anything surrounding their ‘religion’, I am still sympathetic to some of their plight.

  485. I would just like to welcome and thank all those who are sharing on the boards recently.

    I pray that all of you come through safely to a better place.

  486. Mouse,
    I get the impression that Bill Shapley was simply making a politically correct statement. The FLDS probably has new leadership in place in Lyle and Bill, and they simply are making politically expedient statements to the press to avoid the appearance of throwing Warren under the bus in the presence of Gentiles.

  487. Bill Shapley is an idiot of the first class. As for the women outnumbering the men, they have to get to a point where they don’t believe their salvation is in jeopardy and also where they can accept the consequences if the plan doesn’t work. Most of the time those consequences would be losing everything including their family. Most, understandably, aren’t willing to risk that.

  488. At minute 2:29 Jeffs talks about the Negro race not being leaders, but servants.

    Well, he got that one wrong too – whether you think Obama is good or not or whatever your opinion may be, he is in fact in the pole position.

    At 3:31, that looks like Ruth, talking about how her husband Dick put their two handicapped children out of their misery. If you watch that and have no feelings or emotion, I think you would be dead inside.

    I’ve personally seen a lot of hollywood movies, never seen anyone act that well – – so I believe it.

  489. iitmoc – what do those in the Crick think of Shapley being a spokesman. do most know about his daughter being married off to her cousin?

  490. Here is the whole movie:

  491. There is no other way to say this. The FLDS women are pitiful coward. Your number one job is to protect your children-THAT will get you to heaven. Stand up, now is exactly the right time and tell the men you aren’t going to live this way anymore. Do you women really think that if you don’t lead a good life without living as a third world country among sexual predators and thieves you won’t get to heaven. Get real. God loves you, you don’t need to be so stupid.

  492. I have not noticed any incident of the law, any state or federal, causing these FLDS women to be legally responsible for their actions.

    Actions have consequences.

    It has been noticeable even in the Texas prosecutions, notably in particular Merril’s wife Barbara.

    Why not?

  493. If you truly believe in God and getting to heaven, living a good life is all you need to do. Standing by while underage girls get raped and have no life left will only get you to hell. If the FLDS women don’t stand up NOW, they are all going to hell. Can’t break away, ladies remember your men have millions of dollars, repeat millions of dollars. Why don’t you???? Remember, Jeffs had hundreds of thousands, a new Cadillac and probably bought some kiddie porn while he was living the good life. Wake up ladies.

  494. Here is audio of Warren’s entire sermon on the “negro race”, courtesy of FinanceMIB; a poster on this site, I believe. It’s over an hour so listen at your own risk. Resist the temptation to use it as a sleep aid, as his words could slip into your subconscious thoughts. haha

  495. If you think there are any FLDS women on this blog you are seriously mistaken. They do not have computers and would NEVER be allowed to talk without permission. Anything they do requires permission from their husband.

  496. Why not?

    Okay… let’s consider this scenario:

    1. ALL the men (who have more than one wife) and ALL the stupid women (who are ‘married’ to these heinous mormon-fundamentalist men) are breaking the law.

    2. In addition, to breaking the “bigamy” laws, MANY of these men and women are responsible for marrying off their underage daughters.

    At least these two issues are punishable under today’s laws. There are other abuse issues that would have to be discovered in order to prosecute.

    Now, take all these men AND women, arrest and indict them, try them in a court of law, find them guilty, and sentence them all to long prison terms – likely for most of the rest of their natural lives – so they can’t get out and take up where they left off.

    Does the state have enough prison cells? Does the state (and you as a taxpayer) have enough money? Do politicians want to deal with this? (there are plenty of other considerations, right?)

    And NOW you have hundreds, or thousands, of children who become wards of the state.

    Where are all those children going to end up? What will all of this do psychologically, emotionally and even physically to possibly THOUSANDS of children ripped from their families and, to their young minds, their perceived cultural safety? You have no clue – nor do most psychologists – what these children have to go through once “freed” from their families.

    Is CPS – or anyone – capable of dealing with the implications of all this?

    Would all that make you feel… better?… vindicated?… like finally justice is served?
    Yes, now you can breathe a sigh of relief; all those nasty, unchristian, abusive lawbreakers are finally put away and (you think) all those innocent children are at last out of harm’s way.

    Well, think about it! And that’s not the half of it. The magnitude of these issues is mind-boggling. Believe me, I know.

    And finally… NONE of the above is going to stop the practice of polygamy. If that is ever going to happen, it has to come from within! The most we can hope for right now is to stop the underage marriages.

    I’m just sayin’…

    And I’m not knocking or supporting anything here; I’m just asking, “What exactly do you expect to happen?”

    Oh! And Barbara did pay the ultimate price, didn’t she?

  497. Guess if Utah would put the main leaders and perps in prison like Texas does, that would slow it down some.

    Up to now, Utah and Arizona are absolutely limp wristed when dealing with the worst of the worst.

  498. Agree with east – the best thing that can. Be done to help is to raise age of consent to18 at a minimum and insist on a standardized education for al till age18.

  499. I think, East Texas, that the real solution must be education. The children need to be educated to a basic standard and those standards need to be evaluated and ENFORCED nationwide. (Because FLDS kids aren’t the only ones being cheated out of a meaningful life by lax homeschooling regulations. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against homeschooling, I’m just against brainwashing and abuse masquerading as homeschooling.) But if these boys and girls get a solid education, are trained to use their judgement and critical thinking skills and, of course, the laws applicable to children working or marrying are monitored and enforced. THEN if they choose to stay in religious slavery, well at least the rest of society isn’t going to have to clean up their messes with those who leave. Those who leave will at least have a foundation for functioning amongst the mainstream population.

  500. Of course all of that would be in ideal world. lol

  501. s, why should Al receive such special treatment. Shouldn’t each of the children be entitled to an standardized education? Otherwise, Al would be at a distinct advantage over his FLDS peers. What has he done that is so great to cause you to lift him on a pedestal over all of the other FLDS children?

  502. Al is older and needs to go back to school so he can catch up with the 8th graders..

  503. To Easttexas, no one wants any of that to happen. We want the women and children to be free to think for themselves. We want pedophiles and rapists to go to prison, we want youngsters to get an education. Maybe if the FLDS women would realise they are CRIMINALS (welfare fraud, accesory to rape, child abusers, thieves) then maybe they should say to themselves I don’t want to be a criminal any longer. By the way, these crimes will send you straight to hell, never to get heaven but don’t worry all the men will be there with plenty of other women. I have no sympathy for FLDS women, they know what is going on. Don’t make the government get involved ladies, YOU fix the problem.

  504. Whoa there E Texas you KNOW I appreciate all your input but all those FLDS aren’t in Texas breaking Texas’ laws. Share that all out with the States where they are and do break those States’ laws. That puts most of the burden on Utah where it belongs … and should have been being dealt with all these many decades.

  505. In my way of thinking Barbie got away with it all having never ever been held responsible for her ugly criminal acts.

  506. Utah and Ari-Zonie just need to grow a spine and start dealing with these abusers, start from the top and work your way down till they start hiding under rocks.

    No, the abuses may never be stopped, but we can start making them pay when we catch them doing it in front of our faces.

    As far as I am concerned, Ut and Zonie let this fester unhindered, now they need to work at ending the abuse.

    The longer they wait the worse it gets.

    Having Warren in prison is a good thing. Keeps them on their feet.

  507. Rebeckah, I couldn’t agree with you more.

    Education is where our first and primary focus should be. The youngest ones starting a well-rounded educational regimen will become the primary “changers” in the future – just like in the real world. That is what (for all these years) the religious leadership has feared. It has proven true over and over again, that fully educated youngsters grow up to think logically and critically… and many eventually leave.

    What we need is for enough of them to be thus educated that they can eventually become a coalition for change – and as I said, change from WITHIN. All this will take a LOT of time. Pressure from the outside only proves to them their specialness to god (we are the chosen few) and makes them resist and isolate all the more.

    And the hard part from our outside vantage point is the method by which to get in and enforce an educational standard. It won’t be easy. And it won’t change everyone. We can only hope for ongoing positive change.

    There is one (very logical) thing I wish the leaders would understand:
    If you allow children to be fully educated including experience with the outside world and it’s peoples, come to the age of majority and THEN if they decide to stay within their religious culture, only then do you have true believers/followers… ones who have made an educated choice. I believe the numbers would be radically reduced, but sheesh! at least life would be a lot more peaceful.

    But noooo, you want to fight, fight, fight for every last female without regard to her free agency.

    As it is now – and as I was told at the tender age of eight – once you are baptized, you have made your choice (you become a member of the kingdom of god) and thenceforth you give up your “free agency.” Now THAT to me is frightening. Eight years old???? Gah!

  508. Oh Granny… I wasn’t dissin’ you. I was just bringing up a scenario… for any state or federal level, not just Texas. (Hey, it’s all your fault that what you said produced a serious rant from me.) -> ::just kidding::

    As for Barbara, she certainly doesn’t represent the majority of FLDS women. I’m okay at this point with leaving her in her god’s hands.

  509. I would agree that Barbara Jessop isnt typical – but an outlier who lived in a culture where her abuses werent held in check.

    Oh, she aint the only one either.

    On that note, there are a lot of good people who IMHO are sucked into it, as ET says from age 8.

    Its a difficult situation. However I would agree that continued prosecution of leaders and assorted abusers as they crop up, would help put a serious squelch on the free ride.

    But aint it grand Shapley stood in front of a camera and told all of us right here in Texas they just dont give a hoot about our law?

    That was priceless. Especially with Big Daddy Warren Waldo in jail.

    DUH! Guess they need round two.


    OK, this pisses me off. What part of “polygamy is illegal” is the Judge having trouble with? If the man has admitted to being married to more than one woman, why isn’t he in jail?

  511. Absolutely! The answer to EVERYTHING including what shall we have for dinner is: educate your females!

  512. Will someone please send to the jail for Warren his Grecian Formula hair color? He is starting to really look like one of them perverts and pedophiles. It is freaking me out.

  513. Sorry DJ, don’t think grecian formula is standard jail issue.

  514. I think that education is the key too and even if you lose some, if you start educating now something other than Warren Jeffs teachings, there’s a chance for change in the future. If they don’t start educating some then they will be in serious trouble later, the group that lived other places is getting on up in years and some education is needed to keep the $$$ flowing in.

  515. I typed that ALL (as in everyone) should have a standardized education up to age 18 – and the smartphone instead changed my typing to “al” …and then inserted its own bizarre punctuation.
    I’m off the smartphone now…
    60% of the children in the AUB leave the cult, simply because they don’t live on a compound and they have the benefit of an education as well as contact with mainstream society.
    As Benjamin Bistline said in his book – underage marriage should be eliminated in the FLDS, coercive marriage should be prohibited, young people should be able to choose their own occupations and their own spouses, and educational should be mandatory till at least age 18 (with a standardized curriculum and required statewide testing annually.) Those who don’t meet minimum standards should be placed in mainstream schools immediately. All teenagers statewide should have a mandatory health curriculum wherein they are told that no means no in terms of sexual contact, and that every individual has a right by law to refuse an arranged or coercive marriage or sexual relationship of any type, monogamous or polygamous. Enforcing these minimal standards would do a great deal to help.

  516. FLDS women don’t know what danger that they have created by welfare fraud. When the hammer comes down, and it is soon coming, the person that endorsed the welfare check will be the one that goes to jail. FLDS women are getting used again by their men, they get the money, she goes to jail, he moves on to a different -and younger wife. Be careful about getting on the welfare gravy train ladies.

  517. If I could find a way to get education into the YFZ I’d do it in a heartbeat.

  518. Maybe if education were mandatory, Zionna and SpitU wouldn’t have to become child brides.

  519. The way to get the education “in” is to make it a statewide, non discriminative standardized educational mandate for all and follow up with mandatory statewide annual testing for all. At the very least, those who completed a minimum standard of education would not be a burden to society because a minimal educational standard would allow them to be more self sufficient – one would hope

  520. #

    If I could find a way to get education into the YFZ I’d do it in a heartbeat.

    Anonymous said this on December 18, 2010 at 7:41 PM

    Anon IMO in Texas the Southern Baptist Church would fight you tooth and nail to prevent mandatory public school education, they were a moving force in making home schooling legal in Texas, there is very little regulation over home schooling in Texas.

  521. Here’s a report on convicted felonious profit Mitchell, like Warren Jeffs he is kept in special sections of where his physical and mental health can be monitored.

    The step daughter of Mitchell, reminds me off the FLDS women, despite the abuse, continue to support their “husbands” and Warren Jeffs.

    Elizabeth Smart has returned to Paris, France, beyond the reach of the fundie poligs.

  522. denise57,

    Back during the Civil War, President Lincoln would never criticize the Generals or armies of the South, no matter what they did. His wife once asked him why not. His response was that if you had gone through the very same experiences they had, you would do exactly what they are doing. I believe those to be wise words and worth remembering before judging others.

    E. Texas,

    Education is key. This will not be changed by solely through force from without, but must include freedom of mind from within.

    Something else worth considering would be a few changes to State and Federal law. First change would be to decriminalize polygamy. Next, there needs to be a law that those entering into this form of alternative lifestyle must meet several criteria:
    1) must be 21 years of age (if one can’t legally drink till 21, why allow an alternative lifestyle that has long term consequences).
    2) both husband and wife must have a high school diploma or equivalent.
    3) The man and his current family cannot be on any type of welfare (if he cannot take care of what he has, why allow more?)
    4) Plural wives must list their companion on all birth records as well as any government assistance programs. Actually, I think the laws need to change so that all mothers must list the father before any State of Federal welfare benefits can be given out. This will help with deadbeat fathers, not just polygamists.

    Utah is afraid to go after polygamy in the courts because they know there is a good chance of it making its way to the Supreme Court and the laws banning polygamy may be overturned—that would cause a real problem in the LDS Church, because the only reason they are not currently allowing polygamy is because it is “illegal.” However, LDS aside, if polygamy were decriminalized with the above stipulations, it would make it much easier to prosecute those who are abusing the welfare system and those marrying underage. As far as punishment, under 18 for a plural wife should result in some sort of jail time. Over 18 but not meeting all of the other criteria should result in substantial fines and loss of welfare rights, at least for a certain amount of time (or a jail sentence in lieu of the loss of welfare. This way, the father can stay out of jail, but will have to take care of his family himself if he does. If he cannot take care of his family, let the State, but he must stay in jail). I’m thinking jail time should be equivalent to the difference between the plural bride and 21—so a 19 year old bride would result in a two year sentence, etc. Welfare loss would be double, so in the previous case, a loss of welfare for four years.

    Anyway, these are some ideas I have had—not sure how good they are, but maybe it could start a discussion on possible ways to help combat the welfare abuse and age problems of an alternative way of living that is not going to go away.


  523. Anonymous 2:41, Compton hasn’t been in a polygamous marriage — that’s the problem. He’s admitted he wanted to but his former wife and mother of the children in question packed up the kids and left him.

    That being said — I think the judge is a moron who doesn’t value women and children. The man’s beliefs will most likely be harmful to his daughters if they value their father’s opinion at all, and how many little girls don’t value Daddy’s opinions?

  524. “First change would be to decriminalize polygamy.”

    Absolutely not. All decriminalizing polygamy would do is to provide NO incentive for individuals to avoid it — women and children would suffer from it even more than they do now. Either make it legal or keep it illegal but all decriminalization would do is protect the men and leave the women hanging out to dry.

  525. Rebeckah,

    Could you explain a little more why there would be an advantage to making it a legal form of marriage as opposed to decriminalized but with stipulations.


  526. They would certainly benefit from education. If they allowed some of their youth to become Lawyers and public speakers it would solve a lot of their problems. They could reward the successful college grads with wives to motivate them and keep them around. It wouldn’t be long until the river of money would be flowing strong again. This uneducated generation will be what causes this thing to completely cave in, I think.

  527. iitmoc

    Appreciate your candor.

    However, its apparent that it currently IS decriminalized, as noted on Shurtleffs website.

    The law is still there, to halp convict those who abuse others. So regardless of the law, there are thousands who live polygamy seemingly without a care and they maintain what they have.

    Even being on a TV reality show has them stumped, its in their face and they huff and puff and do nothing.

    Sadly, abuses are easily hidden in this current state of affairs.

    No matter what happens, I think that will continue too. Also, as in all crimes, some will get away with it and some wont.

  528. I don’t believe that decriminalization will help. For all intents and purposes, polygamy is decriminalized in Utah, and it has not helped the situation.
    There are MANY MORE Moslem polygamists in this country than there are Mormon polygamists – and if you have ever spoken to a Moslem woman on the subject of polygamy, they are quite clear. They like being in this country because polygamy is not legal here. When and if their husbands propose a polygamous second marriage, these women are often very quick to remind their husbands of their legal options as citizens of the United States – which include involving the district attorney’s office…. we have a mosque performing polygamous marriages WITHOUT the first wife’s consent not too far away from here, and they are currently “under investigation”, as they should be….
    The same is true for fundamentalist “Christian” (non Mormon) polygamy – read any of the chatboards for these groups – the first wives are not willing to participate in polygamy or they report coercion. Too many times the husband springs his decision to enter polygamy on the woman when she is not working or has several young children at home – she is economically vulnerable, and must participate in “the lifestyle” in order to survive economically. These women deserve the protections of the current laws regarding polygamy.
    I believe that the current laws serve as a deterrent. I believe in selective enforcement (as Ron does) for cases in which there is clear COERCION to participate in polygamy which is USUALLY the case in Islam and fundamentalist (non Mormon) Christian polygamy – and the medical literature bears this out as well – this is not just my opinion.

  529. is it just me, or is Rossothelmew actually Duane the troll?
    Same unintelligent comments as Duane makes, same posts lacking in intellectual content or poor attempts at humor…hit the ban button and delete, please

  530. iitmoc, i agree with rebeckah, if you make it legal, but they have to have a legal ceremony, it would be easier to keep track of. this secretive stuff is what helps lead to abuse.

  531. Legalized polygamy? Hmmm wouldnt we have to rewrite several books?

    1. Health insurance

    2. Welfare

    3 Divorce, plural marriage dissolutions (yes this would also now be made public)

    4 Child custody – child support. We’ve all seen how FUBAR that already is, and how they fight it. Like that would change?

    5 Cultural implications regarding forward path of the LDS church and respect of same from 49 other states who think its a queer deal! Not to mention the 80% of the population of Utah who already think its a queer deal!

    6 Think how the GLBTQ community would howl!

    7 No better way to find various child molesters than they have today. Currently Church leaders from other mainstream faiths still keep this behavior under the rug too.

    8 No guarantee they would honor any age limit on marriage. If polygamy was legal, it would just give them an excuse to ignore even more laws

    9 Never trust a polygamist, because tomorrow, he will get a new revelation and change the rules to suit his particular situation of the day!

    10 The math doesnt work. But who needs math once you have a home skooled edjumacation!

  532. They would not want a legal ceremony

  533. Stamp, add social security, another taxpayers’ burden.

  534. Their is absolutely no difference between Warren Jeffs and Brian Mitchell, except Mitchell dresses a little funny. And for all those poor suffering FLDS wives who are on welfare- you are thieves and should be ashamed. You are stealing.

  535. Grannytoad

    Thanks, and I’m sure there is more.

    Denise, Warren has thousands who dress funny too. Brian doesnt own that particular quirk.

  536. Not to mention their tax returns.

    Married, filing jointly?

    Filing for the whole villiage?

    Heck it was found the FLDS ( includeing Warren ) have millions in IRS tax liens, they didnt pay before, why would they now?

    Legalization wouldnt touch many of their bad habits.

  537. How many of those families actually pay taxes on earned incomes? How many respect US laws, and beyond that State laws? I’d say the percentage is low. That’s why they deserve to be designated crime families.

    Until they clean up their acts they don’t deserve my respect. In my world actions have consequences.

  538. “Could you explain a little more why there would be an advantage to making it a legal form of marriage as opposed to decriminalized but with stipulations.”

    As S and Stamp have already pointed out, polygamy is decriminalized at the moment to all intents and purposes. It gets prosecuted once in a blue moon, if that. What get’s prosecuted is generally the abuses; underage marriage, child endangerment, that sort of thing. And what is the result of that? Well, women who wish to leave have no legal protections. Their children can be, and often have been, taken from them and the courts have backed that up because the father’s lifestyle isn’t supposedly “harmful” to the poor kids. The women get little to NO financial support for themselves and their children because they weren’t legally married. And the men generally have the full support of the religious organization backing their attempts to penalize rebellious women while the women have only the support of an already burdened social system that often doesn’t truly understand the struggles they face in attempting to join mainstream society.

    Now please don’t anyone get me wrong. I am absolutely NOT in favor of legalizing polygamy. I don’t think that would be in the best interests of anyone as polygamy IS a harmful situation in general. However, I believe “legal” affords protections that “decriminalized” cannot. And, iitmoc, you can’t put stipulations on a decriminalized crime — only on a legal condition. So what you really want, I think, is legal with firm stipulations.

    Did that answer your question?

  539. “They would certainly benefit from education. If they allowed some of their youth to become Lawyers and public speakers it would solve a lot of their problems. They could reward the successful college grads with wives to motivate them and keep them around. It wouldn’t be long until the river of money would be flowing strong again. This uneducated generation will be what causes this thing to completely cave in, I think.”

    I would LOVE to see these groups producing lawyers and public speakers. The point made is the more they are educated the more genuine their choices truly are AND the more easily those who don’t fit in can make the transition to mainstream society. But abusive cults do NOT want educated members because those members are far more likely to realize they’re being abused. Warren closed the public schools for a reason — because he needed a generation of indoctrinated, submissive sheep to support him. He’s lost some but not nearly as many as he would have if he had allowed the children to continue to learn to think critically. It’s time and past time children were guarantees a comprehensive education — all children in the US from any and all faiths.

  540. Would legalization create a schism in the LDS church, or are they so against it at this point that they wouldn’t budge?

  541. Please continue on General Discussion #44

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