Open Discussion #42

Continued from Open Discussion #41

Lots of things lately. Warren is about to lose his bid to fight extradition but managed to get a couple more days with “another” appeal. We’ll see how long that lasts.

Brian Mitchell is being shown to be a cunning bully, not a madman.

And last but not least, Lindbergh has approved the sale procedures for the UEP sale of Berry Knoll. We’ll post the ruling separately this afternoon.


~ by FLDS TEXAS on November 16, 2010.

407 Responses to “Open Discussion #42”

  1. Excellent news regarding the UEP – Thanks FLDS Texas!

  2. Well I just read it….
    seems the judge is getting very annoyed. Given the legal smackdown of all of the FLDS positions I venture to guess that the final admonition to avoid shrillness and submit legal filings with courtesy applies primarily to the FLDS.

  3. Very glad to see some forward movement on the UEP Trust debacle. And like hhg, I was glad to see Judge Lindberg address the “…shrillness of the language employed by some of the FLDS-related Court filings…” and that …legal points can be made (and effective advocacy given) without the hyerbole, personal attacks or outright distortions of the record that unfortunately continue to be presented as ‘fact’ in submissions by various FLDS-related movants.”

    All y’all should do as she says and comport yourselves with civility and professionalism. Otherwise she reserves the right to strike submissions or take other action” she deems appropriate.

    Glad to see the courts finally take a stand in this matter. It’s draaaggged on way too long.

  4. Help someone who can’t open a pdf file up yet — is the entire UEP to be sold? The money to be distributed to the beneficiaries? Or is it just those lands that were already up for sale okayed for sale?

    And I’m glad Lindberg is doing something — it seems like all that’s happened to date is the judge telling everyone to get along and come up woth a plan — and that only works with rational human beings.

  5. Ive corrected the post. The court has approved the UEP’s proposed procedure to sell the Berry Knoll property. We’ll post the order separately in a bit.

    Lindberg also denied the intervention of Rulon’s estate but allowed a limited intervention by the Corporation of the Presidency of the FLDS (i.e. Warren).

  6. Wouldn’t the Corporation of the Presidency of the FLDS actually be Wendell now?

  7. Yes, Anon… that would be my assessment. It’s now Wendell.

    On another note, I learned a new term from this document: Stalking-Horse Bid.

    “What Does Stalking-Horse Bid Mean?
    An initial bid on a bankrupt company’s assets from an interested buyer chosen by the bankrupt company. From a pool of bidders, the bankrupt company chooses the stalking horse to make the first bid.

    Investopedia explains Stalking-Horse Bid
    This method allows the distressed company to avoid low bids on its assets. Once the stalking horse has made its bid, other potential buyers may submit competing bids for the bankrupt company’s assets. In essence, the stalking horse sets the bar so that other bidders can’t low-ball the purchase price.”


  8. The sell refers to the Berry Knoll property.

  9. So is this also a strategy to get in a bid from the offside to get back what one is otherwise losing via forced bankruptcy, or favoring one creditor? I understand it does keep the loss from being an outright giveaway.

  10. Saw this in a San Angelo newspaper :—stewart/

  11. The insanity of the defense lawyers becomes more and more evident with ole Warren bow tie bungler filing appeals, well it appears that Mitchell’s lawyers are doing the same thing, but it’s even more bizarre!

    Mitchell’s lawyers are claiming that Elizabeth Smart wasn’t taken for sex, that’s like Warrens lawyers trying to say the temple sex tape isn’t real. Who’s more insane, the lawyers or their felonious profit clients!

    From news reports: “Specifically, defense attorneys claim prosecutors, who rested their case Tuesday, failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Mitchell transported Smart across state lines for the purpose of having sex.”

    Read the rest:

  12. ^
    | horsepucky

  13. Amen to Donniece Stewart, San Angelo

    She sees this crime syndicate for what it is!

  14. Here’s a link to read Mitchell’s defense lawyers motion:

    After reading this, my jaw hit the floor, pure insanity. These lawyers have outdone Wally bow tie in craziness.
    Wonder if Jeffs & Mitchell’s lawyers are trying to see who can file the most frivolous appeals and motions.

  15. Here’s the prosecutions response which says because Mitchell continued to treat Smart as a plural wife while in California, and that she was to demonstrate how to have sex for any new plural wives. That he took her across state lines for sex.

    From prosecution: This evidence clearly shows that illegal sexual activity was either a significant or
    dominant or motivating purpose for the travel to California. The evidence is clear that the
    defendant intended to treat Miss Smart as his “wife” in California, which treatment
    included raping and otherwise sexually abusing her. The evidence is clear that within 24
    hours of her arrival in California, Miss Smart was raped by the defendant. The evidence
    is clear that the defendant traveled to California with the intention of obtaining a new
    “wife” in California, and part of Miss Smart’s responsibilities as his “wife” was to demonstrate sex for the new “wife.”

    Read the rest:

  16. A Texan, I wonder if many of the Utah lawyers didn’t have polygamy in their ancestry and/or current church doctrines, then they might be more reticent to support the ways of these polygamous pedophile profits?

  17. I’m confused. I thought that all along the defense didn’t dispute that Brian David Mitchell had kidnapped and raped Elizabeth Smart. But, the defense said he was insane when he did these heinous acts. With this court filing A Texan linked too, it seems to me that the defense wants an acquittal on the charges, and are tossing out the matter of sanity.

    Yep, these guys are just like Warren’s lawyers… throw out everything and see what sticks.

  18. Interesting link :

  19. Whoa

    I didnt know that Mitchell had been accused of molesting his own chldren too. The investigators likely dropped the ball on that, giving us the Brian Mitchell we all know today.


    “The morning session was marked with more legal maneuvering.

    The defense called for a mistrial first thing Tuesday because of content that was shown to jurors on Monday. Defense attorney Robert Steele noted that during the two-hour videotaped interview between Mitchell and detectives that was shown to jurors, the officers questioned Mitchell about allegations of previous sex abuse incidents involving his children.

    Attorneys had agreed before the trial began that previous incidents of sex abuse would not be raised.

    Steele acknowledged that he stipulated to the video being shown in court, but apparently didn’t realize that the questions of the sex abuse was part of the video.

    U.S. District Judge Dale Kimball denied the motion for a mistrial, and the trial continued.”

  20. So the defense wants a mistrial because they were too lazy or incompetent to actually view the video that they approved? Wow.

  21. And just for those who lurk, and you know who you are:

    Just because someone is released on a procedural technicality, it does not mean they are innocent. There is NO ONE more morally and legally responsible for the sexual assault of the under aged girls whose “marriages” he arranged than Warren Jeffs himself. In some other state, one not poisoned with ideas that fathers and spiritual leaders can have revelations that dispose of the sexual favors of children, this would never have happened, because the state would have prosecuted so many other similar cases with severe punishments, and he would not have felt so free to act as he did. No body, not even the defense team, is doubting that Elissa Wall would not have been sexually violated at 14 years old if it had not been for the ‘revelation’, the instructions and the ceremony performed by Warren Jeffs. So, don’t kid yourself. We have not been deprived of proof of his guilt. So hold off on the schadenfreude, it’s unfounded.

  22. what is it with UTAH that they allow these child molesting creeps run wild in the streets ?

  23. Too many to round up. They have to catch them red handed.

  24. What happened to the Lindberg-UEP ruling originally posted here? I don’t see it up top anymore.

  25. Ahh! I see it now – a separate post.

  26. A funny, compliments of “Scenario” on the trib.

    Pointed at Brian Mitchell:


    I heard Brian David Mitchell put out an Emmanuel’s Greatest Hits album just in time for Christmas. Here’s the track list:

    1. I’ll Be Homeless For Christmas
    2. Two Nuts Baking Over An Open Campfire
    3. Have Yourself A Scary Little Nightmare
    4. Santa Claus Is Coming To (The Foothills Just Outside Of) Town
    5. It’s The Most Wonderful Time Of The Year (For Another Abduction)
    6. Rapin’ Around The Christmas Tree
    7. Away In A Dugout
    8. O Come, O Come, Emmanuel
    9. I Saw Wanda Kissing Another Large Mouth Bass
    10. All I Want For Christmas Is My Two Child Brides
    11. It’s Beginning To Look A Lot Like Prison
    12. Here Comes Sandy Cops, Here Comes Sandy Cops
    13. Frosty The Heineken Man
    14. I’m Dreaming Of A White And Delightsome Christmas
    15. You’re A Mean One, Mr. Judge
    16. Up On The Window Sill (Snip, Snip, Snip)
    17. Wanda Got Run Over By A Reindeer
    18. Put One Veil In Front Of The Other
    19. The Twelve Days Of Jury Selection
    20. Do You Fear What I Fear?
    21. (There’s No Place Like) Jail For The Holidays

  27. Hey Stamp, bet ole Warren would love that DVD, number 11 would be a favorite of the FLDS convicts.

  28. Here’s transcript of trial of Mitchell:,0,7242468.story

    After reading transcripts I have to wonder what defense lawyers are trying to prove?

  29. A Texan, I wondered the same thing. Are they trying to get the “crossing the state line” thing dropped and thus get him only two life sentences without parole instead of that plus 10 years? Or are they secretly working with the prosecution?

  30. Utah’s the only theocracy US State, so who knows what notion they have up their magickal undies for Mitchell. Or Jeffs.

  31. Mitchell is Melba toast. He creeps everyone out, and earned himself a place in the revolving prison chow line.

  32. Warren’s appeal has been transfered to the Utah Supreme Court. If they agree to extradite him then it moves the case forward and he’s free to be moved, I think.

  33. Actually, the Supreme Court is the most likely to judge the merits of the case by it’s constitutionality more than any other court, when they get a case as the top of the court chain, they have to apply all constitutional law and rights to their analysis, so, most probably unless they punt Warren will be afforded his 6th amendment rights. Also, they will probably set a hearing date for both sides, and then you know the Supreme Court, they could sit on it for who knows how long.

  34. Who is funding the attorneys who are representing Mitchell?

  35. Two Kingston polygamy group members ran for public office in Utah on the Republican ticket. Did one or both of them win their election ?

  36. dude, an extradition hearing is not a proper place to discuss a case. It’s the proper place to see that the forms are properly filled out. His right to a speedy trial in Utah is not at issue in determining whether or not Texas has filled out their forms correctly. The Supreme Court will probably say exactly what the lower courts have already said.

  37. “Who is funding the attorneys who are representing Mitchell?”

    That’s a damn good question. Since when did a homeless man get anything other than a public defender? Is it possible he has some cheddar? nah. Who’s funding this? I doubt any Polygamist groups would lend their support. Perhaps Elizabeth Smart has made a wealthy enemy.

  38. I don’t think that Elizabeth Smart has an enemy who would support the man who kidnapped and raped her. The question is who thinks that Mitchell is important enough to pay his legal bills….Any information on that, FLDS Texas?

  39. #

    Who is funding the attorneys who are representing Mitchell?

    Born in Brooklyn said this on November 17, 2010 at 7:44 PM

    All of us are funding Mitchell’s lawyers, they are public defenders whose salaries are paid by the taxpayers. Because this is federal court the US government pays.

  40. The Utah Supreme Court does not get to discuss the merits of the Texas cases against Warren Jeffs. They merely get to say whether or not the Trial Court was correct in denying the Writ of Habeas Corpus. That is the only issue before the Supreme Court in the Extradition case.

  41. The silly motion to dismiss charges against Mitchell was rejected by judge.

  42. I have rarely seen a public defender display such zeal in their defense of a child molester.

  43. so what did they decide? Is Warren going to Texas or not?

  44. nothing yet walton, but both sides are before the court.

    all of the defense attorneys in the charles manson family cases were public defenders.

  45. Thanks anon. I thought the deadline was 5p.m. today.

  46. Here’s a news article on Jeffs appeal to Utah Supreme Court:

  47. Here’s a copy of court order transferring Jeffs appeal to Utah supreme Court:

  48. it was walton and they complied. it’s posted at the site listed above.

  49. Here’s the state of Utah reply to Supreme court of that state;

  50. thanks a texan, i was too lazy to get the exact link.

    i wonder if naomie has found suitable housing in eldorado yet?

  51. Why would anyone give Warren Jeff’s bail? 1) he ran from arrest before and 2) he has documented clearly in his own words that he has no respect for anyone’s authority other than his own.

  52. Here’s a link to court denying Mitchell’s request for aquittal:

    Anything for more billable hours IMO.

  53. Thanks for the links.

  54. Take a commercial break and listen to Yanni work with some fabulous artists, including some great didgeridoo work.

    And is that an angel I heard starting at the 1:06 mark?

  55. I finally got to ask our (young) Canadian table mates abt their thots on Bountiful and Blackmore’s grp. Amy was familiar with them and the news they are making in Canada and feels as we do…keeeps your paws off the child brides, dont raise the girls to be broodmares and give them an education. She mentioned the “common law marriage act”(?) and says fine live together,etc…but c’mon…1 wife at a time..its not called the “common law harem” act! And…if ya cant support ’em…dont have kids. She isnt sure how the courts will rule. Its all very complicated with their legal system.

  56. I have been reading the transcript of the defense witnesses for Brian Mitchell.

    What strikes me is how some success at power and manipulation in his third marriage seems to make him more grandiose. Of course we can’t know which comes first but it does seem to confirm my prejudice that the very concept of polygamy would create men with distorted views of their on worth and specialness (assuming that they get that extra wives)… So now I guess that I have finally been able to understand why Warren would get 70 wives…. Because he was more special than any one else.

  57. No, it’s just that Warren had ALL the power to do anything he wanted. But the other thing you have to consider is that most of his women actually WANTED to be with him.

    I know… it’s hard to understand, but that’s just the way it is. The women WANT to be with the top dog. It gives them the greatest chance to go to the highest reward.

    I can’t even speak to Mitchell’s idiocy. Just that it all stems from early Mormon doctrine.

  58. “I have rarely seen a public defender display such zeal in their defense of a child molester”

    I imagine he wants to make a name for himself, since the case is so high profile. If he can get this guy off, he won’t be a public defender for long. Everyone will want his services and he can charge whatever he wants.

  59. The one man rule doctrine caused things to get WAY out of control in the FLDS. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  60. Neshobe,

    I would suggest to that the zealous public defender that he should avoid hitching his wagon to Mitchell’s star. He is still going to lose this case, no matter what he does. Dream on !

  61. This evening, Polygamy : What Love is This ? will be available on live streaming video. You need to have Windows Media Player and a plugin as well. Time : 10 pm Eastern, 9 pm central, 8 pm Mountain. The topic this evening is : Another tragic story from early Mormon polygamy; Mormon president John Taylor condemns America for outlawing polygamy; Changes to the 8th Article of Faith.

  62. Link to the What Love is This live streaming video site :

  63. I have rarely seen a public defender display such zeal in their defense of a child molester.

    Born in Brooklyn said this on November 17, 2010 at 9:33 PM

    You obviously don’t live in Utah…

    Polygamy Elevated

  64. I went to the What love is this website and I couldn’t get the video thing to play. Said something about an add on or plug in ???
    But I am able to view other videos from you tube, cbs,nbc,fox.

    Is there another way for me to see the special about John Taylor?

  65. Neshobe

    Bingo – but it looks like a major fail. His tacts have been lame, impotent. Insulting the intelligence of the Jury never does a lawyer good.


    I suppose Canadians have other issues to worry about, and dont know much about the snakes they have in the grass from down south.

    It would behoove them to pay attention, because they just might have pandoras box opening up on them. The last thing they need IMO is a huge influx of muslim and fundy pligs ruining the good life they have.

    Look what the FLDS have done to Texas – cost them quite a bit in resources, prosecuting them and shacking them up in prison. Yeah this is the same group floating about in Canada.

    Maybe Canada doesnt give a hoot, they let the pligs pollute their own child pool.

  66. E – you have said before that girls choose the prophet. I get it – a long time ago I was trying out scenarios in my own head about the appeal and the only one I could really come up with for girls was to be
    “the mother of the messiah”..

    but what I was really commenting on is why the prophet would take 70 wives knowing that would reduce wives for those individuals in his flock that he was in spiritual charge – there it really is an issue of entitlement isn’t it?

  67. Today should bring more testimony, possibly quite shocking as convicted female polig Barzee will speak on events leading up and during the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart. Wonder if Barzee has had second thoughts about having a sister “wife”

    Here’s yesterdays court transcript for those who missed it:

    Barzee should finish testimony today and be return to prison here in Texas, amazing collection of polygamous felons we are getting here in Texas!

  68. Walton,
    The episode of What Love is This? on John Taylor should be placed in the video archive within the next 2 weeks.

  69. hhg… what I was really commenting on is why the prophet would take 70 wives knowing that would reduce wives for those individuals in his flock that he was in spiritual charge – there it really is an issue of entitlement isn’t it?
    I think the issue is narcissism… entitlement belongs to a sociopathic, narcissistic vampire.

    As for girls wanting to become “the mother of the messiah”… if that IS true, for most it would only be a secondary idea compared to the primary goal of becoming a goddess, a Mother Eve, who will birth many spirits to populate her god-husband’s new planet.

  70. “I think the issue is narcissism… entitlement belongs to a sociopathic, narcissistic vampire.”
    E.Texas said this on November 19, 2010 at 9:22 AM

    East pegged it once again !

  71. Well and that is what I was reading into the testimony from Brian Mitchell’s trial…

    it also seems to me that a polygamous culture enhances those narcissistic tendencies among men who rise far enough to “merit” multiply wives. Look also at Kody – it really is all about him isn’t it?

  72. I don’t think the girls really want to be birthing goddesses. I think they’ve been taught to want that or to think they do. I do however think it’s wired into females to want to mate with the alpha of their group. That’s how you become alpha female. They envision themselves being the number one favorite concubine of the number one man; even if their culture has taught them to think of that in religious metaphores. Like the men who envision themselves with multiple wives, rather than envisioning themselves working celibate for a man with multiple wives, I think the girls only picture the period of glory when they are the apple of the top guy’s eye, without noticing that moment is brief and how unpleasant the other moments are. They also want to be the alpha female as far as control and status compared to other women. They want to be the equivalent of Barbara Jessop, commanding the work of a large household before taking off with hubby on a business trip.

    It is quite normal for a group of oppressed people to want to rise to the top of their own group rather than wanting to escape the oppression entirely. To want to be the most trusted prisoner rather than focusing on escape. To borrow a line from Pink Floyd “Did you exchange a walk on part in war, for the lead role in a cage?” Better to be top dog in the small world I know, than to face being anonymous in the big scary world out there.

    But the real genius of the group dynamics in the FLDS is borrowed directly from Smith and Young. Ordering the other men to take wives makes them complicit. When ordinary cults get to the same moment, the leaders generally take the multiple young wives for themselves and argue that it is their right. This eventually will take them down because it awakes anger in the other males. But Smith and Young bypassed that by ordering the other men to join them in their excess, at least to a limited extent. The message was that if you are very holy, you too could have a huge house full of women like Young. The early church then went to great trouble to recruit and retain women, even (from some of the letters of the time), specifically pretty girls. It’s like the gangs that require new members to commit a crime to enter the gang. So when Warren asks someone else to do fraudulent transfer of money or to drive one of his young wives out of state to teach her a lesson he is not only testing their faith, he’s surrounding himself with people who have proven that they are willing to be criminals along with him. They certainly are not going to turn him in without also turning themselves in.

  73. I get what you’re saying, Betty, and it’s mostly true. The diamond in what you said is, “…they’ve been taught to want that or to think they do.”

    There’s no focus on escape, because there’s no perceived way to escape the “fact” – in their indoctrinated minds – that their religion is the only true religion. You just don’t even consider escaping perceived “truth.”

    THE overriding element is the canon, the indoctrination, the ABSOLUTE BELIEF in the religion itself – as it’s been burned into their brain and psyche.

    What you’re saying does not explain how or why SO MANY MEN lost their families with the injunction to repent from afar and they ACTUALLY DO… and are doing so to this day – year after year!

    If those men were not so firmly set in their religious beliefs, they could initiate the kind of uprising that would overthrow narcissistic Warren’s authority; and they could do it outside of law enforcement’s purview. But they don’t. They still want to be invited back in and are living and worshiping and contributing from afar with the HOPE they will be invited to come back among the faithful.

    Someone once said, “Hope is independent of the apparatus of logic.”

    That mind-set is reinforced by the fact that a very few HAVE been favored with just such an invitation and re-baptism. It’s like dog training – random reinforcement does keep eliciting the desired (submissive) behavior.

    I don’t think the faithful resist turning Warren in for fear of turning themselves in and losing their physical freedom. They DON’T DARE go against god’s prophet at the risk losing their soul and salvation. Faith and belief override everything.

  74. The quote about hope is a real gem.

    I think it’s so sad that people believe they need to obey and get approval from another HUMAN for their salvation.

  75. Many have talked about the keys, the keys to the kingdom, priesthood authority, those who have followed this blog know that Warren Jeffs and the FLDS group believe that LDS President John Taylor gave the keys to folks like Wooley, Musser etc. on down to Rulon & Warren.

    Well ole Mitchell claims that Jesus gave him the keys per today’s court testimony from Wanda Barzee: “Barzee: Yes. On the 7th of November in 2000 in priesthood blessing, Brian told me the keys to the Lord’s shoulder had been transferred to him. He called me as a Relief Society president and asked if I would accept the job. I didn’t understand. I was supposed to select religious hymns pertaining to Zion coming forth.”

    And of course plural wives comes next: “It was the 21st of November when we were going back down the hill. Brian said he had a dream that celestial marriage was going to be restored.”

    Read the rest:

  76. I would love to see Dr Welner’s 205 page report on the psychopathology of male Mormom polygamists.

  77. Oh, wansdas testimony was awesome today – it really fleshed out what these “independents” go through in pulling the wool over on their wives and the lies they tell them and how the wife feels about it.

    Pissed off and jealous, for starters.

    Echos of Emma

  78. Miraculously, a wonderful Subway sandwich was provided for me.

  79. One thing I noticed in the testimony is that Wanda is exclusively concerned about herself. When he talks about getting 10-14 year olds, she says she was very upset and it’s the LAWYER who suggests that she did not want kids taken from their family. The words she used were exactly the same as she used in talking about his other attempts at getting another wife. In her own way, she’s just as narcissistic as he is.

  80. Just imagine if your husband wandered into town to “Minister” ie “go begging” and stalk young girls.

    And then waiting to see what the cat dragged in each day.

  81. I’ve heard about wet sheets. Or duct tape. And Iron skillets.

  82. Air conditioned baptist buses.

  83. Trial must be the worst possible nightmare for both the pro-polygamy crowd (sister wives and all)
    for the state of Utah –
    really is an eye opener into the fringe mormon beliefs, or, I should say, how fringe individuals can so easily manipulate using mormon belief structure.

    Like S I would love to read the pyschoanalysis of polygamist men

  84. sorry,
    anonymous at 6:20 is me – hhg

  85. This in from the Vancouver Sun today:

    B.C. Supreme Court opens debate on polygamy”

    And this:

    Boy sent to Bountiful at age 14

    “In his video affidavit, [Don] Fischer says he was sent Bountiful when he was 14 because “my Dad had to get rid of me. We argued all the time because I wouldn’t let him beat my little brothers and sisters. … Father went to the prophet and said his son was interfering with his right to run his family.

    “His father used scriptures to justify beating his children for things as minor as spilling milk.”


    Anybody know if Don’s father is Dan Fischer?

  86. Here’s what a psychiatrist has to say about Mitchell, but it IMO it could just as easily be about Warren Jeffs. From article: “”severe malignant narcissistic personality disorder with antisocial features”

  87. Psychiatrist Noel Gardner reached the same conclusions that Dr Welner did regarding Mitchell. Mitchell has quite an act.

  88. His father was Erwin Carl Fischer and his mom was Robyn Fischer. She was the daughter of Richard Fischer and Lili Ann Lauritzen. Anyway, Erwin is also Dan’s dad, so Don and Dan would be 1/2 brothers.

  89. Photos of Warren from Trent:

    Any names on those standing, except the usual suspect, Wendell. Curiously, Merril was absent.

  90. You can’t convince me that the LDS saints don’t believe in polygamy. Looks like the leaves are falling off of the branches in an ongoing manner.

    This is from Thursday’s testimony in the Brian Mitchell trial in Salt Lake City for the kidnapping and rape of Elizabeth Smart:

    Douglas: Hi, Mr. McKnight. Your wife just testified and we’ve heard a little about your community. But could you start by how you met Brian Mitchell and Wanda Barzee?

    McKnight: My connection with the Mitchells and also with Wanda, I was asked through my LDS ward up in Idaho to visit the family on a monthly basis. What we call home teaching. That was my initial connection.

    Douglas: Was it … where did the Mitchells live at the time?

    McKnight: They resided at the time on a communal effort which we referred to as “the farm.” The farm consisted of a group of individuals who pooled their resources and wherewithal and worked together, and that’s where they were.

    Douglas: Did the people who lived at the farm have any beliefs that weren’t shared by the rest of the community?

    McKnight: There were whisperings and things of that nature. I was serving in an LDS bishopric at the time. With them being members, we did kind of keep an ear in that direction.

    Douglas: What kind of suspicions did you and others speak about?

    McKnight: There were things of a communal effort that caused some discomfort. There were some rumblings and whisperings with regard to polygamy. Things like that.

    So there are mainstream Mormons living in a “communal” atmosphere and local LDS Mormon bishops are checking on them and discover POLYGAMY is being talked about and practiced. WTF?

    And this “church” says it doesn’t happen. Yeah, right.
    Who’s fooling who?

  91. Thanks anon on Don’s father.

    I knew and interacted with Erwin… even thought I might have been “assigned” to him at one point in my teen years. Didn’t get to know Dan except that he did a lot of dental work on one of my mothers.

  92. Of those standing in the picture:

    Lyle Jeffs (far left)
    Wendell Nielsen (of course)
    John Wayman (I think)
    Vaughn Taylor (possibly?… or so my son thinks)
    The young man on the far right is somebody – looks like a Steed to me – but I have no clue.
    The others standing behind do not appear to me to be FLDS.

  93. Photos of Warren from Trent:
    Warren is shown in shackles. Chain, chain, chain… chain of fools.

  94. Here is a link to an interesting article in Sunstone about Brian David Mitchell :

  95. Back row from the left:

    Lyle Jeffs
    Wendell Neilsen
    Don’t know
    Lindsey Barlow
    Don’t know
    Female, don’t know (but she needs a wash, cut and style)
    Female, Carlene Cannon – Kingston Clan
    Male – perhaps Gary Batchelor
    Male – don’t know

    Front row:

    Brent Huntsaker
    Don’t know
    Don’t know
    Jennifer Dobner

  96. Trent made a comment in a series of photos that Warren “looked my way a few times, including this sequence with a slight grin.”

    I disagree. I think Warren was just passing gas.

  97. However, it does look like Warren got a new blow dryer for his court-appearance hairdo. Much fluffier than in previous photos. Or, his tin of Brill Creme is empty and he had to go to court with fly-away hair.

    Whichever, his new “do” is much more with the times. Warren is so hip!

  98. The photos taken by Trent were interesting, the big surprise is that Wilie the Thug wasn’t there put his face in the camera. Which raises question, has ole fat Willie fallen from grace with that felonious profit Warren Jeffs? Is he no longer the spokesman?

  99. S. Said this: “Here is a link to an interesting article in Sunstone about Brian David Mitchell” :

    I would encourage everyone to read this fascinating and reveling IMO.

  100. Maybe the trampoline in the photos of Jeffs family women living in the suburbs in 2008 is explained by the religious health nut thing. Trying to bounce the bad proteins out of the blood.

  101. The political stuff in that article should bring to mind Glenn Beck and his fascination with the New World Order and some of the authors mentioned.

  102. Willie was there. I guess he just didn’t take the opportunity for the photo op. He’s actually lost a lot of weight, about 100 pounds. The surprising thing to me was that Merril wasn’t carried in on his sickbed for Warren to heal him.

  103. Back row from the left:

    Lyle Jeffs
    Wendell Neilsen
    Don’t know
    Lindsey Barlow
    Don’t know
    Female, don’t know (but she needs a wash, cut and style)
    Female, Carlene Cannon – Kingston Clan
    Male – perhaps Gary Batchelor
    Male – don’t know

    Front row:

    Brent Huntsaker
    Don’t know
    Don’t know
    Jennifer Dobner

    So is Lindsay Barlow the guy on the back row or the bald guy?

  104. From the link on the BC Supreme court polygamy review

    It was forgotten that Canada is a member of the UN which we all know condemns polygamy..


    “If Chief Justice Robert Bauman agrees with the legalizers, Canada would be the first country in the developed world to lift the prohibition on multiple marriage and it would be swimming against a tide of criminalization in developing countries in Africa and Asia.

    And it’s fair to say that it would likely be interpreted as Canada throwing down the welcome mat to fundamentalist Mormons, who have been largely rooted out of Utah and Arizona and are under attack in Texas, as well as to Muslims, Wiccans and to secular polyamorists.

    Read more:

  105. Also absent from the front row media group is Polygamy Reporter Brooke Adams.

    Maybe she was hooking up with Willie?

  106. From the Sunstone doc:

    “Eventually, however, Allan accepted his excommunication as liberating.

    He now maintains several web sites and electronic lists
    catering to ultraconservative Saints in and out of the
    Church. These include, PatriotSaints.-
    com,, and the Yahoo group David’s

    Allan has said that, like Mitchell, he once considered running
    off with a 14-year-old girl. This was during a period of
    life when, also like Mitchell, Allan believed himself to be “the
    one mighty and strong.” Most recently, Allan has announced
    on his website that a recently discovered Bible code implores
    him to run for president in 2004 and predicts that he will

  107. News media report indicates that Utah supreme Court hasn’t set a date for oral arguments for Warren Jeffs appeal of extradition to Texas, unfortunately Utah’s Supreme Court is not known for quick decisions, we could be waiting a year or more before we find out what is decided.

    I hope AG Abbott here in Texas moves to federal court to force Utah to follow US Constitution, then US Marshall’s can go in and take Jeffs to Texas even if Utah Supreme Court rules against it.

    Read news report:

  108. I don’t know if any of you have seen this, but John Llewellyn has written an excellent book on contemporary Mormon polygyny – here is the link for the google book preview –

  109. Anybody know if Don’s father is Dan Fischer?

    E.Texas said this on November 19, 2010 at 8:12 PM

    Don Ronald Fischer is the son of Erwin Carl Fischer who’s wife was sealed to Allen Woodruff Steed.
    His mother is Robynn Fischer.

  110. Don and Dan are 1/2 brothers and both tell the same story about an abusive dad. It’s amazing that those still in whitewash the stories so selectively. Dan’s kids who are out work for him and live by him, those that are still in paint him as a monster.

  111. Aren’t all escapees “monsters” according to the crime family?

    They know too much, they’re each a threat.

  112. OMG, the news article that A Texan posted about the extradition has “a mute point” in it. That drives me nuts. You would think people who write for a living would catch that one.

  113. This man is nuts. Ahmadinejad wants Iranian girls to marry at 16 to boost the population growth rate.

  114. I keep seeing that “mute point” phrase for years now and wonder what the users intend it to mean. Can’t help but wonder too what they think “moot” means.

  115. It bothers me that journalists, proof readers and editors can’t recognize proper English.

  116. About the job: It’s who you know or are related to, not what you know.

  117. Mute point is spelled correctly it’s just the WRONG word, spell check might not have caught it.

  118. I was wrong when identifying one of the folks in the photo from Monday’s extradition hearing.

    It is NOT Lindsay Barlow, but Guy E. Nielsen in the back row. He is the first guy on the left in the back row.

    So sorry for naming him wrong.

  119. Doesn’t the polygamy reference case start in Canada today?

  120. Yes it does, Anon 9:42 am

  121. Here’s an interesting opinion piece from CNN on trial of polygamist Mitchell, from article:

    “He’s a self-proclaimed prophet who called his bed an altar.”

    Didn’t Warren call the bed in the “YFZ Temple of Doom” the same thing? Guess like minds have like thoughts IMO!

  122. Definitely complicated isn’t it (on the piece that A Texan linked)…
    Delusional vs Devout…
    Doesn’t the difference come in when devoutness leads you beyond the civil law norms? Then the question becomes which religions give to civil law the respect necessary to operate as a state or national entity as opposed to those religions which pre-dispoose adherents to the belief that the ‘higher law’ trumps civil law?

    I know that it gets very tricky – indeed some of the strands in the U.S. Civil war were related to the very question of “higher law” vs civil law.


    Trial in canada has started. 33 lawyers participating!!!

  124. Betty: I think it’s so sad that people believe they need to obey and get approval from another HUMAN for their salvation.


    I agree with this too, Betty, especially since the New Testament doesn’t teach that at all. But just as some have innate leadership qualities, others cannot function without a leader telling them what to do, and we are left with – again – power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  125. It bothers me that journalists, proof readers and editors can’t recognize proper English


    HUGE blunder in my local paper this morning: “it’s the principal of the matter” Didn’t we learn the difference between ‘principal’ and ‘principle’ in 7th grade?

    It’s partly because they’re using spell check, but still . . .

  126. Delusional vs Devout…
    Doesn’t the difference come in when devoutness leads you beyond the civil law norms?


    I don’t know, but compare the devout Christianity of Mother Teresa and the alleged “Christianity” of Warren Jeffs and I see a blinding difference:

    One is based on serving the needs of others, the other based on serving the needs of himself.

    To me it is obvious which one is truly following the teachings of Christ.

  127. AEM
    I agree – any system of belief that rationalizes or promotes self benefit to the detriment of others should be suspect.

    That is, of course, not to say that we should assume that beliefs require complete sacrifice for the greater good, as a flip of the coin, are best…

    It is that flip of the coin that is used to indoctrinate FLDS women

  128. any news this am from Canada ?

  129. Looks like Brooke has closed shop on her polyg blog, not taking any more comments, and she isnt writing anymore polygamy stories.

    Wonder what happened?

    The stories churn on…

  130. S

    Yeah, they are having a nasty cold snap in Vancouver.

    Hell is freezing over?

  131. Brooke’s blog has been pretty quiet for some time. maybe it was so near dead the SLT just put it out of its misery. She lost me when she started moderating and limiting comments.

  132. Yeah, that really squelched the blog. Its still up, but there are no articles taking comments.

    Her last thread was ironically “Bye Bye Big Love”.

    Well, Juniper Creek keeps cranking out perps, I think there are still 4 trials to go in Texas.

  133. this just in from Canada

  134. I thought this was good. Its unlikely Canada would become the only developed nation to allow it. Beside the fact the UN, of which Canada is a member denouncing the practice, I give polygamy a snowballs chance in hell on getting legalized there – or here for that matter.


    “Jones defined those Tuesday as harms to: the moral fabric and democratic essence of society; equality and protection of vulnerable groups; society generally through polygamy’s impact on the sexualization of girls and increased anti-social behavior and crime; and individual harm to children and the participants in polygamous relationships.

    Jones argued in his opening statement that taken together all of those harms trump the various guaranteed rights and freedoms including religious freedom, freedom of association and expression.

    “If it (the law) is upheld,” Jones concluded, “then this court will confirm our right as a people through our elected representatives to impose some fundamental codes of moral behavior for the protection of the vulnerable and to promote and advance our highest aspirations of equality and social justice.”

    Read more:

  135. Sending him on his way as soon as the weather clears!

    WAY to go SCOU!!

    Back to Zion! Only it’ll be a much smaller Zion than the one he had behind the gate.

    Supreme Court: Jeffs to be extradited



    PUBLISHED NOV 23, 2010 04:14PM

  136. Whoo hoo – off to Texas with him ASAP

  137. Yahoo!!

  138. Welcome to your worst nightmare Warren. You are soon to be the resident of the TDC in one of their many fine facilities.


  140. S, I think it will be next week. Utah’s having blizzard conditions at the moment. I just spoke to someone there and they said 6 – 12 inches over night in the valley, 3 – 5 feet in the mountains.

    At any rate, he’ll be in Texas soon. I so hope he asks for a speedy trial here.

    On another note, all the FLDS defendants except Emack have requested an additional Extension of Time. Some are on their 4th extension. Here I thought they were so anxious for a Court other than Judge Walther’s 51st Judicial District to hear the case. Sounds like stall tactics to me, that or the attorneys aren’t getting paid enough money.

    I’m working on getting a copy of the brief filed by Emack’s attorney’s in his appeal. The State of Texas’ answer is due in that case on 12/22.

  141. Lawdy Lawdy, Warren’s coming to Texas, and the eyes of Texas will be watching you Warren, there is no escape Warren for the eyes of Texas are upon you, a song in Warrens honor:

    The eyes of Texas are upon you,
    All the live long day.
    The eyes of Texas are upon you,
    You cannot get away.
    Do not think you can escape them,
    At night, or early in the morn.
    The eyes of Texas are upon you,
    Till Gabriel blows his horn!

    That’s right Warren ,there is no escape, you can’t get away, you’re Huntsville bound boy, you going to sing those Texas prison blues!

    In Honor of Warren Jeffs coming to Texas:

  142. I just heard today that Brooke is on sabbatical for an indefinite period of time. It is for personal reasons. Maybe she needed a break. Maybe she is taking time off to write a book. I have a source trying to find out more information. In the meantime Lindsay Whitehurst is writing all of the polygamy stories.

  143. Nice to see Warren Yearning for Texas now! He will get a nice welcome party I think!

  144. i saw that utesfan, brooke did tweet about the supreme court decision, but that’s all she wrote.

  145. dang, mad bill’s been uncharacteristically silent on warren’s impending extradition. maybe he’s drunk the kool-aid.

  146. Given Brooke’s apparent inability to “see” the illegalities that the rest of us see and her use as a PR piece for Willie I would think that the current events would be make her life very difficult: Mitchell, UEP, Canada, and Warren Jeffs. There is very little to “spin” positive on the face of polygamy and the “we are persecuted theme is getting a bit old”. I did notice that the last bit on her blog and her last piece were on the “positive” sister wives…

  147. Thanks, utesfan. I heard a rumor that she was having health problems. I hope that is not the case. Even though I’m no fan of hers, I do not wish her harm.

  148. The Mackert Sisters come forward in the Canadian Reference Case :

  149. Statement of an Moslem anti – polygamy activist at Canadian reference case regarding a Canadian child bride forced into a polygamous marriage

  150. Thanks for those links S.

  151. Canada is going to have to take a big gulp of koolaide if they plan on legalizing polygamy.

    Hope Brookes health is OK, noticed the twitter feed on her blog is broke. Off hook.

  152. i got a tweet from her yesterday about the ruling, i subscribe to her tweets so they come over my phone as text messages.

    as for canada, if they legalize polygamy, they’d better be ready for an influx of people.

  153. Sorry, the link above is not from the reference case, although I think she should been called to testify.
    That is from a Canadian conference on Shari’a.

  154. Can we have a link on the toolbar for the Polygamy Index Page of the Vancouver Sun for easy reference ? Thanks – here is the link –

  155. I found this quite amusing in a affidavit submitted in Canada by an FLDS woman –

    “The biggest barrier I have seen to education is that we are living in poverty level [sic] due to the fact that the government in the U.S. has kept us having to pay thousands of dollars to keep church leaders out of jail for as long as I can remember and have read about, even in Joseph Smith’s day,” she said in her written affidavit.

    Read more:

  156. His father was Erwin Carl Fischer and his mom was Robyn Fischer. She was the daughter of Richard Fischer and Lili Ann Lauritzen. Anyway, Erwin is also Dan’s dad, so Don and Dan would be 1/2 brothers.

    Anonymous said this on November 19, 2010 at 11:31 PM

    So what is the extended genealogy here? If Don’s mother Robyn was the daughter of Richard Fischer and she married Erwin Fischer, how was Erwin related to her?

  157. Nice to hear that Brooke is still tweeting. If she tweets, she’s breathing.

  158. I was so hoping that Warren would be in Texas to celebrate Thanksgiving. Utah needs one less turkey.

  159. I had no idea that Wiccans practiced polygamy.

  160. As for how Robynn Fischer and Erwin Fisher are related, I’m not sure who Erwin’s father and mother are. Robynn’s are Richard Wayne Fischer and Lili Ann Lauritzen.

  161. Arrests –

    JESSOP, FREDRICK MERRIL III Birth Date: 09/15/86 Address : 548 W 1325 S, Cedar City, UT Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency 16:00:07 11/23/10 Bangerter, Tyre SGPD Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid WARRANT-CASH WARRANT-CASH ONLY BM WCJ7 308.00 308.00

  162. see his mug shot here –

  163. Freddy 3’s little sister was married underage to LeRoy Johnson Steed and their son is actually named Fredrick Merril Jessop IV.

  164. “The biggest barrier I have seen to education is that we are living in poverty level [sic] due to the fact that the government in the U.S. has kept us having to pay thousands of dollars to keep church leaders out of jail for as long as I can remember and have read about, even in Joseph Smith’s day,” she said in her written affidavit.
    The fact that there are way more children than wage earners has NOTHING to do with it, right???? Right.

  165. From that same article and witness:
    “Women that are Canadian have had their child tax benefit cut off as the government tells them they are living common-law and should be claiming the father of the child’s income.”

    Read more:

    Heck yes, they should consider the man’s income? Why would they not? Isn’t he their father?

    “I cannot understand how the government can prosecute us, yet turn a blind eye to the many multiple partnered relationships that happen outside our community.”

    I don’t know about the rest of you, but I don’t know that many multiple partnered relationships that involve children and shared living/shared resource situations.


    Wally’s getting a little testy. Telling the Court that they will dismiss his Utah case. Way to go Wally, didn’t know you made Judge.

  167. It seems that Duane has grown bored and is now frequenting The Stop Polygamy in Canada blog.

  168. It’s not surprising that Wally bow tie is getting testy as anon 6:31 mentioned, he lost big time and now must decide if he will follow Warren the felonious profit to Texas, if he doesn’t his gravy train of billable hours comes to an end. If Wally bow tie follows Warren Jeffs to Texas, it should be interesting to see how he interacts with Judge Walther, Wally will certainly find he’s no longer in Utah. I would love to see the look on Warrens face when he meets Sheriff Doran in Eldorado, TX.

  169. I don’t know where in other partnerships they pimp out their little girls.

  170. Looks like FMJ3 needs to lay off the meth pipe. The same could be said of many of those mug shots. I guess I should be glad I don’t live in St George anymore. I sure do miss the pleasant winters, though. At least I don’t live in Winnipeg.

  171. Does Wally have a license to practice law in Texas ? If he doesn’t, could he obtain a Texas law license on an expedited basis ? Just curious.
    Ron in Houston, are you out there in cyberspace ?


    Duane must be bored tonight. Guess his imaginary harem is out for the evening.

  173. On Monday the trial of polygamist Mitchell resumes with defense calling another independent polygamist, wonder how he’s going to help defense as he was in jail when Mitchell committed his crimes?

    Wonder if Mitchell”s lawyers will call ole Warren Jeffs as a witness, that would make Wally bow tie happy as it would delay Jeffs extradition to Texas. Calling polygamist Chaney to testify is as silly as calling Warren Jeffs to testify in case neither have any involvement in.

  174. I don’t know how easy it would be to get a temp license to practice law, I think you’d have to have someone sponsor you or something along those lines. It could be really interesting to see who steps up to the plate at his arraignment.

    As for meeting Sherrif Doran, just imagine his face when Ranger Nick greets him at the gates of the prison and escorts him to the airport for his chariot ride to Texas. I wonder if he’ll be held in Schleicher County or if he’ll be housed somewhere else.

  175. I THINK a lawyer can practice law for a specific case in another state “pro hac (or hoc) vice” if they have a lawyer in that state sponsoring them and kind of being their “buddy”. But I’m not a lawyer in any state so take it for what it’s worth.

  176. Merril is going on trial for the same charges as this guy – who Brian Mitchell is calling as a witness for the defense.

    Whats wrong with bringing Warren in too, he might get to spend a couple more days in Utah!


    *Rape abettor to testify at Mitchell trial*


    The Salt Lake Tribune

    Published Nov 24, 2010 05:13PM
    Updated Nov 24, 2010 10:45PM

    Brian David Mitchell’s defense team wants to elicit testimony from a man convicted of marrying his 13-year-old daughter to a 47-year-old man during a 1993 ceremony in American Fork.

    John Perry Chaney, who is serving up to life at the Utah State Prison for abetting in the rape of his daughter, is slated to testify Wednesday, according to documents filed this week in U.S. District Court.”

  177. Wow – Brian makes Warren look like a beginner!

    (Reuters) – The woman imprisoned for helping her husband kidnap Elizabeth Smart in 2002 told jurors in emotional testimony on Friday that he abducted the Utah teen after claiming that God had commanded him to “take” young girls as part of a plan to ultimately have 350 wives.

    Wanda Barzee, testifying for a second day in the trial of her estranged husband, Brian David Mitchell, said the homeless street preacher began stalking 10- to 14-year-old girls about a year before kidnapping Smart, after getting what he called a “revelation”.

    “We were commanded to take 14-year-old young women. We were to snatch them out of the world and train them in the ministries of God,” Barzee, 64, told the court.

    She said Mitchell told her that they needed to take seven women or girls into their home, then seven more — and that that number would keep multiplying until “he was going to have 350 wives in the end.”

  178. Stamp Brian is the beginner.
    Warren has already taken over 10-15 underage girls to his bed, maybe more.

    Brian might of succeeded if he had the money and the power.

  179. So Mitchell wanted 50 Quorums? One wife for nearly each day of the year? One can only imagine how many Jeffs would have ended up with had he been a more low-key leader like his father, The CPark leader, or the AUB leader. If he would have waited until the girls were 18, he would have had, I don’t even dare venture a guess. Likely north of 350. I can’t believe I’m saying this, but Warren gets a point for drawing the line at 12 instead of 10 like Mitchell. He also got the parents blessing, unlike Mitchell. So who’s the most depraved? I think they should have been cellmates with the footage made into reality TV episodes.

    Today I am thankful that I’m not FLDS and I get to celebrate Thanksgiving.

  180. Happy Turkey day….

    “Women that are Canadian have had their child tax benefit cut off as the government tells them they are living common-law and should be claiming the father of the child’s income.”

    More woe is me, we are being persecuted rhetoric…

    Which bring [back] up the question…just how many ‘common-law’ wives does Canada allow you to have at one time???

  181. Wally didn’t represent Warren in AZ, so why would he in Texas?

  182. cuz if he doesn’t turnpike, he’s off the gravy train. while pic was representing in arizona, wally still had billable hours with the appeal.

  183. Anon, what Warren has is the belief of a community to back him up.

  184. from the Canadian reference case today – FLDS lawyer presents –

  185. Which bring [back] up the question…just how many ‘common-law’ wives does Canada allow you to have at one time???

    mc1199 said this on November 25, 2010 at 4:37 PM

    Apparently there is no limit because Winston Blackmore has > 25 wives and > 120 children. He doesn’t even remember all of their names, ages, or birthdays

    Birth Date: 04/07/88
    Address : 230 W FIELD AVE, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    21:08:00 11/25/10 Gattis, Tommy-h HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-5-304 UNLAWFUL DETENTION BM WCJ3 623.00 623.00
    76-6-108 INTERFERE W/EMERGENCY BM WCJ3 623.00 623.00

  187. Unlawful detention? That sounds suspiciously like someone was being held against their will. And what’s an emergency BM?

  188. Emergency BM – Its what happened that landed all those folks down in the Crick

  189. Anonono that’s really funny!

    Rebeckah, the INTERFERE W/EMERGENCY BM would mean that he interfered with an emergency response team (the cops) and it is a class “B” misdemeanor.

    I believe that you are right about the UNLAWFUL DETENTION meaning that he held someone against their (her?) will.

  190. sorry, it should have been “held” instead of “help”

  191. Are the CC/Hilldale cops now non-affiliated FLDS law enforcement? Did that all get finally worked out? I ask because, it seems, in the ‘old days’ the cops would have done nothing.

  192. They do a lot of talking and investigating, but I don’t think anyone has made any changes, mc.

  193. mc1199 the CC/Hildale cops are all still FLDS members. When one is ousted by POST, they just bring a new one on board. It gives a whole new dimension to the term “dirty cops”. Tommy Gattis, the arresting cop yesterday for Nathan Troy Holm, must be a cop in Hurricane rather than Hildale.

  194. That’s kinda what I wondered, if someone outside the “FLDS LE family” made the arrest. From the things I’ve read, the locals usually just arrest/threaten/harass the outsiders or those who aren’t faithful to WJ. It would be interesting to know the whole story behind the arrest.

  195. mc,

    while your observations are tenuously accurate your prejudice is patently obvious.

  196. Happy Thanksgiving Ogre – one day late.

  197. Let’s see, Blogogre…

    MC said that from what he/she has READ that the local police usually arrest/threaten/harrass outsiders and those who aren’t FLDS and that it would be interesting to know the whole story and out of that you see “prejudice”? I guess that chip on your shoulder is still mighty big.

  198. I guess your prejudice is showing too, eh Blogogre?

  199. Maybe I should starting humming Kumbaya ?

  200. Blogo

    Isnt it too bad that the twin city PD dept have proven to be such failures over the years?

    It isnt prejudice to witness what has been going on, or to comment on it.

    Perhaps after they convict and imprison a few more polygamists it’ll sink in for ya.

  201. Turns out the arrest was by a HURRICANE CITY PD not HILDALE CITY PD.

    So yes its likely another foiled attempt to spirit an escaping young girl back.

    But these types of kidnappings seem rather common in the area, and rarely make the news. Unless some leader is personally involved.

    Which reminds me, where is Warren going Monday?

  202. For the record, Brooke doesnt give a tweet anymore. Those girls are on their own. Pretty much like they have always been.

    Note that Shurtleff wont do anything either. And this Holm was let out on bail. Just more family incestfighting, I guess.

    Why bother?

  203. Interesting – It should be noted that the FLDS usually don’t try to prevent a male from leaving. They pursue the escaping girls though. I noticed that when I saw “Sons of Perdition”

  204. Sorry, S. I get riled up when someone with anger issues posts only to vent their spleen. Blogogre would be far better served to see a therapist about his/her issues than to continue to float in to take a jab at someone who has never harmed him/her. Just a thought.

  205. Being “prejudiced” against lawbreakers, rapists, kidnappers and the like?


    Well, they have the opportunity to follow the law just like everybody else. They have no one to blame but themselves for being in poverty for supporting high priced attorneys in lame attempts to keep their crew out of prison.

  206. John Perry Chaney will take the stand Monday for Brian Mitchell’s defense to remind us all why polygamy will stay illegal.

  207. Even though he attacks me here online Just Because, I know that Blogo chooses not to know any better, he grew up in that brainwashed crime family fairytale and continues to play dumb about realities in the non-criminal world. He does, however, know better.

  208. Yeah, he knows better. Religion is no excuse for how those cults behave.

    Glad Texas knows how to handle rattlesnakes in the grass.

  209. Which reminds me, where is Warren going Monday?

    Stamp said this on November 27, 2010 at 9:48 AM

    In answer to Stamp’s question, I suspect ole Warren the felonious profit will be traveling to meet Sheriff Doran, who will welcome Warren with a free stay in the graybar hotel, but suspect because of security reasons wouldn’t be surprised to see ole Warren sent to Tom Green county jail in San Angelo.

    Of course this dealing with Utah and something strange might happen like ole Mitchell’s lawyers calling Warren as witness, which would keep ole Warren in Utah a bit longer.

  210. Yeah, Blogogre…what they all said!! Plus, I prefer LE who follow the law not a man who thinks he is a god. If they can’t work within thw law, which they [supposedly] swore to do,then they should all be de-POST’ed and new ones put in their places.

    When Warren returns to Texas, I wonder if any of the faithful flock will be there to meet him? A silent vigil of support outside the jail?

  211. mc1199 it will get cold sittin’ out there.

  212. If they can charge Mitchell with interstate transfer of a minor for sex, why couldn’t they have charged Warren Jeffs, Winston Blackmore, Tom Green, Kelly Fisher, and Rod Holms. Tom Green admitted to taking his 13 year old step daughter to Mexico. Kelly Fisher and Rod Holms also stated in court that they couldn’t be tried in one state when they had taken the girl Jenny Steeds Fisher and Ruth Stubbs over the state border for sex. I’m confused that polygamists have again and again used taking girls over the border for sex as a DEFENSE and no charges. In fact, the FBI in Utah said of girls taken to Canada that no crime was committed even though they were transported to Canada under the age of 18 for the express purpose of becoming sexual partners to men there who were married adults. One of them good ol’ boy Winston. How exactly was that not a crime?

  213. P.S. The SL Tribune has refused to list the Elizabeth Smart abduction and rape in the polygamy section although Mitchell’s wife said the primary motive was polygamy. And it has been well publicized that he was searching for young brides.

    The FLDS just keep them captive their whole lives and brain wash them into thinking rape by some old man is approved by God.

  214. The failure of police was not just in the twin cities. The sheriff’s department in Washington and Mohave County and the courts there were a party to the crimes for years. For instance, Dan Barlow Jr. got 3 days in jail for sexually abusing 5 daughters, Kelly Fisher got 45 days in jail for rape of his step daughter (wife) who referred to him in a letter to the courts as “our loving father”, both her step father and her children’s father. The names of 15 girls taken to Canada or “married” underaqed was referred to the Washington County Sheriff’s department and the NCMEC reported that they did not investigate. They included Ruth Stubbs who later escaped and Ruby Jessop. The FBI received numerous reports of girls taken to Canada both they and the RCMP said there was no crime. Also the Washington County Sheriff let William Black on the FBI wanted list go free, saying he would turn himself in. A secret service agent admitted in SL County that he assisted the AUB in fraud and theft. A SL County sheriff’s deputy stated in court that they were told not to investigate reports of wrong doing in the polygamist community. Orrin Hatch when head of the Senate Justice Committee said that it would be nuts for federal officers to investigate crimes in polygamy even though these polygamous crime organizations are interstate and international.

  215. Blackbird, lets face it, Utah has a hard time admitting this crap, or taking any responsibility for it. From the youngest child thrust into polygamy, to the small town sheriff, up to the Utah Supreme Court, they are ALL IN DENIAL!! And the tribune is the biggest Joke in Utah

  216. After reading blackbird’s comments, IMO it boils down to fear on part of federal govt as well as local government. They all fear a Waco, no government official wants to take the heat like Janet Reno did over Waco. With 30,000 plus polygamists in the USA, the costs of prosecuting, imprisoning, and caring for thousands of children suddenly thrown into the foster care system would bankrupt many western states, look at the millions the state of Texas has spent on the few hundred polygamist at YFZ. Also IMO the Obama Whitehouse doesn’t want another Waco incident, plus pressure from gay rights groups will prevent any strong push for federal investigations against alternative sexual lifestyles.

  217. I can’t guess what they think they’re doing nor why they’re allowing these wholesale criminal acts. Good to seeya, blackbird.

  218. BLACKBIRD SAID : I’m confused that polygamists have again and again used taking girls over the border for sex as a DEFENSE and no charges.

    Blackbird, I am not at all surprised. The reason that no one does anything about this is because it involves women.
    You can bet that if this involved young boys being married underage to polyandrous older female “Priestesshood” holders the Priestesshood Holders would be pursued, tried and executed and no questions would be raised regarding their “religious rights”

  219. The good thing about the Mitchell trial is that it’s putting a spotlight on polygamy, which hopefully will force more attention on issue as well as Warren Jeffs up coming trial here in Texas. Interesting as to why Mitchell defense team is calling Chaney a convicted independent polygamist.

    In the film Banking on Heaven, Ed Smart spoke out, but he was rejected by anti-polygamy activists who saw him as the enemy, one of the enemy because he is LDS. A big mistake on anti- polygamy groups. Ed Smart because of his family connections and personal friendship with persons like John Walsh could have done much to get LE to stop looking the other way. IMO one reason one doesn’t see much effort by LDS persons on this issue is the attacks on LDS persons who would speak out against polygamy on public forums like this. We need people like Chemist on these boards. The key to ending the polygamy problem IMO is getting the LDS on board, once that happens, Utah will be forced to deal with issue.

  220. The Good news is that the ever-reining Washington County Sheriff FINALLY retired and a new sheriff was just elected. We’ll have to wait and see if he does his job regarding Hildale.

    The bad news is that Terry Goddard is not in office any longer as the AG in Arizona and Tom Horne was elected. Tom Horne was the Arizona school board superintendent and didn’t do much of anything to clean up the corruption in the Colorado City School District. It took Terry Goddard to clean up that mess. We’ll have to wait and see if Horne does his job as AZ AG to address the abuses in Colorado City.

    Now, if Utah can get Orrin Hatch’s butt out of office, that might help things a bit. The old goat sounds like he will run again in 2012. Let’s hope Utah voters are tired of his lack of action unless it involves college football and the BCS.

  221. A Texan, what anti-polygamy activists rejected Ed Smart? I don’t remember that part in the documentary.

  222. I agree that the LDS church needs to get involved to help address the issues of polygamy in Utah. If they got involved, results might happen (because nothing happens in Utah unless the LDS church is on board). However, I think they steer clear out of fear of culpability for the situation.

    And YES, Chemist is GREAT! Can we clone him?

  223. I don’t know how transporting girls across the Canadian border is not a crime. In fact, in one of the articles I read recently about the legal proceedings in Canada, the prosecutors noted that one of the problems is women who were in Canada illegally, and had had children in Canada. In many cases, they did not even have an acceptable form of identification. It raises a problem for their immigration services to deal with.

  224. The trib has put polygamy reporting on the back burner, much as the local law has put it as a priority.

    I find it amazing that a guy (Holm) is arrested for an apparent kidnapping attempt, but let out on bail, and no news org picks it up.

    In civilized society, this would be big news and a big crime.

    In Utah? Business as usual? Well this week Brian Mitchell goes back on trial and Warren gets his ass extradited.

    So people who think of Polygamy in a soft sweet light and enjoy “Sister Wives” need not look far to realize its backed up by “Dark Pedophiles”…

  225. Thank you; A Texan and anomynous 11/28 at 12:22 am. I also would like to see more LDS people on these boards and concerned about the abuses that are part and parcel of fundie mormon polygamy. However, not LDS people like cupcake, aka deb lee.

  226. A problem, chem, is that those LDS out there in & around Utah have also been raised on the fairytale and do pass it off with a shrug. They’ve grown up with it and it’s in their genealogy and blood and folks in their current families.

    They are unwilling to toe a line in the red dirt and hold to it – “NO MORE!”

    Converts from outside the territory may not be part of the history and family, they won’t know, and will not be told. They will even be lied to.

  227. On a “Rainy Monday” Warren will be off to Texas. Goodbye Utah-istan!


    “I won’t lie
    I still can’t say that I
    Admit we went too far
    And you won’t see me change my mind
    But I really wish that I
    Could forget the way you are”

  228. I don’t know of any anti – polygamy group which rejected Ed Smart. Which group was that ????

  229. Me too. I didn’t get it.

  230. How did they even get a minor across the Canadian border without a valid ID? Anyone who has crossed the border knows they check the Passports of everyone in the car. Do they have FLDS border guards along the Idaho border? This makes no sense. Maybe they transported them on their plane. Even so, one would think customs would be involved.

    Surely they must have had valid IDs and played the “I’m here to visit family” card.

  231. #

    I don’t know of any anti – polygamy group which rejected Ed Smart. Which group was that ????

    S said this on November 28, 2010 at 12:57 PM

    No group per-say, based on comments made by Ed Smart in trailer of film “Banking on Heaven” where Smart says we are Mormons here and we are trying to help. IMO Smart is trying to say there are many LDS who would help, but since many people equate LDS with FLDS, it turns the LDS folks off. IMO people like Ed Smart. If the anti-polygamy activists had been intelligent they would have cultivated a relationship Ed Smart and people like him, what many people may not know is the Smart family has many contacts with powerful influential people both in and out of the LDS church. As mentioned before Ed Smart is a personal friend of John Walsh.

    See trailer for film at 2:13:

  232. Speaking of “Banking on Heaven” from youtube, the complete film:

  233. The film comes in 8 parts, above part 1, here are parts 2 through 8
    Part 2

    Part 3

    Part 4

    Part 5

    Part 6

    Part 7

    Part 8

  234. Texan said : MO Smart is trying to say there are many LDS who would help, but since many people equate LDS with FLDS, it turns the LDS folks off.

    Respectfully, I think this is a supposition on your part –

  235. Here are another set of trailers for “Banking on Heaven” film

  236. A Texan: LDS in the territory know quite well what’s up with FLDS, don’t be misled. It’s what I was trying to say, above.

  237. I’d venture a guess that it may very well be true that Ed Smart is staying clear of any anti – polygamy group affiliation until the Mitchell trial is over, as per instructions of the prosecutors.

    No doubt that Mitchell’s zealous public defender might attempt to claim that Ed or the Smart family had an “agenda” if they joined an anti – polygamy group and that he / they were exaggerating or lying to advance their anti – polygamy agenda – just a thought.

  238. Hey I saw Ruth! And she gave up a nice little song.

    Elaine Jeffs too – she has a message, people ought to be listening. Otherwise history is bound to repeat itself.

  239. How did they even get a minor across the Canadian border without a valid ID? Anyone who has crossed the border knows they check the Passports of everyone in the car.


    For minors I believe what is needed to cross the border into Canada is some kind of written “letter of permission” from the child’s parent(s). Not a problem for those more than willing to curry favor by handing over their daughters to become child brides.

  240. Another Ode to Warren and Brian for tomorrow

    The Bangle’s bang out “Manic Monday”

    “It’s just another manic Monday
    I wish it was Sunday
    ‘Cause that’s my fun-day

    My I don’t have to run-day
    It’s just another manic Monday

    Have to catch an early plane
    Got to be to Court by nine”

  241. Not that long ago you could go to and from Canada with a birth certificate.

  242. But, hasn’t it been brought up in the past…that not everyone born in the FLDS has a birth certificate? So it would be intersting to know just how everyone comes and goes from US to Canada and back with such ease. Other than a legal border crossing?? There are thousands of miles of unpatroled roads in both countries at their mutual border.

  243. FLDS, birth certificates? Uh. Really?

  244. #

    FLDS, birth certificates? Uh. Really?

    GrannyToad said this on November 28, 2010 at 9:03 PM

    FLDS birth certificates? Sounds like forged & counterfeit IMO. Remember the quack FLDS doctor at YFZ, wonder how many phony birth certs he signed off on?

  245. Granny, it bothers me that you cant be more respectful of Lds. I’m sure there are good and bad people everywhere. Chemst is always respectful of others here and he opposes polygamy. Case in point.

  246. I have been told that it is quite easy to get across the border from Idaho to Canada without being detected. I was also told that during Prohibition it was called Rum Runners’ Alley. This person told me that the route was still used to traffic girls into and out of Bountiful.

  247. It only “bothers” you whatever that means to you, betty, to the extent of unjustified personal attack. It appears to me that you don’t feel the need to be respectful of me. Good and bad and all that.

    To me it means they are us, my folks are and were a part of all that from the earliest historical days so I’m not the least bit bluffed. LDS history is just another part of my own. I’ve said a number of times that I’ve met LDS polygamists in Utah and your neo-fairytale reality cannot alter my reality thanks for all the fish.

    It isn’t disrepectful to relate truth. It is disrespectful to demand I hide truth or join in a lie.

    It’s entirely possible this post may get flushed for whatever reasons, if truth and honesty are not useful.

  248. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s how grandpa went across.

  249. A single instance, a single “case in point”, cannot erase history.

  250. Toad, I don’t think that the poster at 10:11 pm is Betty, I think that is someone using her screen name.

  251. with lower case b, I’d noticed.

  252. Not that long ago you could go to and from Canada with a birth certificate.


    Here in Washington you can get an “enhanced” driver’s license that allows for crossing into Canada.

    Of course, a 13-year-old can’t get any kind of driver’s license.

  253. Here’s a media report on today’s Mitchell trial which will now move to a battle of mental health experts.

    Nothing yet that I have seen on Warren Jeffs trip here to Texas.

    IMO if Mitchell is insane because of the religious beliefs he holds, then Warren Jeffs is equally insane. IMO both Mitchell & Jeffs have used religion as a basis for obtaining sex and power.

  254. That was really me, it was posted from my new phone and I’m not very good at using it yet.

    It’s not an personal attack; I did not call you names. I said I was uncomfortable with what you said in a specific time frame. I think you were unnecessarily disrespectful of chemist. I stand by that.

    You can acknowledge the truth (a lack of action by LE/DA in Utah or an avoidance of the subject by Utah LDS in general) without painting an entire state full of people or everyone in a particular religion as liars who don’t care about the harm done to women and children. I suspect that the reasons for inaction are complex and as varied as the number of people involved. And it’s especially hurtful when directed at our only regular poster who is an active LDS member. Also against a man who has been very respectful and patient with the rest of us as we malign the origins of his beliefs. I don’t agree with their religion, I don’t think that by their dogma they are Christians, but chemist and others have taught me that there are good, spiritual people amongst them and congregations of them who perform good works for others. There may also be congregations that are fundamentalists and part of the problem. But I’m not comfortable with bashing LDS, Muslims, Catholics or Jews or any other religion as a whole on this list. I try hard not to do it myself.

  255. Here’s another news article that implies that Mitchell’s insanity defense doesn’t have much chance of success.

    IMO the article is correct.

  256. I found this about crossing the border into Canada and what ID’s are needed. Since 9/11 a passport LIKE ID is required. One thing I find interesting is that truck drivers can get a fast track entry pass pre-approved. Seems like a truck delivery is a good way.

    I’ve also heard that there are rural areas in the Pacific Northwest that are very low in population density and that are not monitored. You could drop the girls off with instructions to walk through the woods to a car that is waiting for them on the other side. By training to obedience, and because there is no where else for them to go, the girls would obey even if they did not want to be married in Canada. I seem to recall one of the women who left Canada saying that they had to cross the border on their own so the man who was driving them could not be accused. By passing them from one person to another, it’s possible that they technically skirt the law and without proof of instructions for the whole trip and it’s purpose from any one person, it’s impossible to prosecute.

  257. I recently renewed my passport. You can use either a passport or what is called a government issued “passport card” to go to Canada or Mexico.
    The passport card is cheaper.

  258. when is Warren leaving for Texas ?

  259. word on the street is mid week.

  260. Sons of Perdition Update :
    On December 10th Sons of Perdition will screen in Salt Lake City as a fundraiser to help those who have left polygamy. Director and stars in attendance. Details to follow –

  261. Here’s an update on Mitchell trial which is underway:

    On subject of when ole Warren the felonious, IMO poster Betty is correct on when he’s leaving for Texas, of course the exact time & manner of his leaving Utah won’t be made public for security reasons, wouldn’t want Willie the Thug to try to spring his felonious leader would we!

  262. Stranger things have happened, A Texan! I haven’t heard anything official either.

  263. Warren Jeffs extradition to Texas stalls again

    I don’t understand what’s going on…..

  264. The above link to abc-4 news seems to be the same article produced last week.

  265. I thought it looked just like it too, but is dated and timed for this pm. Weird.

  266. Welcome Richard L Holm –

    and yes, this link is old from 11/16 –
    Warren Jeffs will be moved later this week.

  267. Aren’t the indictments in Texas for TWO underaged brides, not just the one?

  268. Here’s a complete transcript of trial of Mitchell, better than reporting in D-News & SL Trib.,0,2104629.story

  269. Yes, two underaged girls victimized in Texas.

  270. The SL Trib has filed suit to force federal court to give newspaper copy of Mitchell interview videos that were shown to jurors.

  271. Yes, two underaged girls victimized in Texas.

    GrannyToad said this on November 29, 2010 at 11:23 P

    Yes and Texas has DNA evidence, ole Warren’s toast, they even have a tape of the crime being committed at YFZ Temple of Doom. Warren’s going to be living in a world where most of the inmates are black & hispanic, his sermons on the black race will make him no friends in the TDCJ aka TDC.

  272. Just saw this on Brian Mitchell, it reminds me of someone else – – –


    “Based on studying Mitchell’s family, Whitehead said there was evidence of a “very robust family history” of psychotic disorders.

    For the most part, Porter described Mitchell as a narcissist.

    “He believes himself to be above other people and shows a remarkable lack of empathy,” he said.

    “He’s more or less unconcerned about other people on the unit other than to tell them his story and preach at them.”


  273. Just saw on TV that Kode and family will be on Oprah. I will not be able to watch it, but would enjoy hearing about it from thoe who do watch it.

  274. Im curious too. I am admittedly not an expert on Oprah, but I get the feeling she is big on gay rights and by default, the rights of other “alternative lifestyles”.

    I tend to think she will put a “shine” on these guys, and not ask the hard questions.


    Maybe after this show they will have to rename the “GLBT movement” the “GLBTP movement”! That makes for odd bedfellows though!

  275. Oh goodness! There is more!


    To recognize this inclusion, a popular variant adds the letter Q for those questioning their sexual identity (e.g., “LGBTQ” or “GLBTQ”).


  276. When is the Oprah program scheduled ?

  277. Welcome Richard Holm, I think that link is old, it is my understanding that Warren will be moved mid-week.

    As for the charges, it’s for aggravated sexual assault on a barely 12 year old and sexual assault of a 14 year old. There’s also a felony bigamy charge for his “marriage” to the 12 year old.

  278. Is this Oprah show a rerun or a follow-up story? The Browns were on her show just 2 months ago.

  279. Stamp, your quote @5:17 AM sounds a lot like Ervil LeBaron. But, since there are so many narcissistic polygamous profits in Utah, it is hard to determine just which one you meant.

  280. Anon

    I was referring to a non fundamentalist polygyny wannabe who crowed about starting his own polygamy church, he is rabidly anti FLDS theology but gives them moral support in their acts to marry each others children.

    While an announcement on starting the Church was made, no name for it was given, and since then, a couple months ago has passed and he seems to have forgotten about it.

    He got locked out of his tool shed by his current M M .. “life partner” so that seems to have put a stop to it for the time being.

  281. OBTW

    You are right – there are many others out and about that might match that profile too.

    Tony Alamo is currently serving 150 years for us on a silver platter for instance.

  282. During that initial phase, Mitchell also would preach to new arrivals at the hospital, Porter said. “But they were not interested and he’d stop trying after two or three days.”

    Mitchell’s behavior changed when a prison inmate — who also claimed to be a prophet — arrived at the hospital.

    “Having two prophets on the same unit — we thought that might be a combustible situation,” Porter said. “But that didn’t seem to be the case.”

    Mitchell took a “student role” under the other man, even cutting his hair and trimming his beard to look like him, Porter said.

    The man, who was “into constitutional law,” also convinced Mitchell that “the court did not have power over him because they used capital letters in spelling his name and capital letters only apply to ships at sea, and because Utah is above the high water mark, the court had no jurisdiction over him,” Porter testified.

    The man also told Mitchell he should no longer wear sweatpants and sweatshirts because of a passage in the Bible warning against “mixed-fiber clothing,” Porter said. That led Mitchell to dress only in 100 percent cotton or wool clothing, Porter said.

    Talk about over crowding in the State mental hospital!

  283. It just never ends with these guys!

    FLDS bishops take appeal to Utah Supreme Court

    Associated Press • Published: November 30.
    2010 6:03AM

    SALT LAKE CITY — The Utah Supreme Court will
    decide whether a state judge has violated the
    constitutional rights of two polygamous church
    bishops by keeping them out of a land trust legal

    Lyle Jeffs and James Oler of the Fundamentalist
    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints sought
    standing in the 3rd District Court dispute over the
    United Effort Plan Trust. They say the trust’s
    management requires input from church leaders and
    that the ruling prevents them from carrying out their
    ecclesiastical duties.

    The trust holds most of the property in Hildale,
    Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., the twin towns where
    most church members live.

    The state courts took control of the trust in 2005
    amid allegations of mismanagement.

    Justices will hear arguments in the case on Tuesday.

  284. Bill Medvecky site has been suspended AGAIN!

  285. what did wild bill do now ?

    I suspect it was a HIPAA violation associated with giving medical histories associated with pictures and names of children – the pictures and names were viewed as identifiers associated with medical histories.

    Just my guess.

    If he violated HIPAA – and I think he did – he may be fined.

  286. I believe that someone had warned him about HIPAA violations at his site previously. Guess he did not listen.

  287. I think he steals pictures of cute babies from anywhere on the internet and then posts them. He did a post of baby pictures “from The Ranch” recently, only they were dressed in normal, modern baby clothes. Seemed kind of suspicious to me. Maybe he finally got caught for that. Here’s hoping his provider is sick of dealing with him and just shuts him down.

  288. even if this provider gives him the boot you can count on him coming back with another provider.

  289. bile is very tenacious

  290. Brian David Mitchell collapsed in court today unclear what caused it, possibly heart attack, not clear if he survived.

  291. Here’s another report on Mitchell:

  292. Not a heart attack, a possible seizure. He has a history of this apparently. It should also be noted that people with seizure disorder often have pseudoseizures too….particularly if they want to manipulate people or gain sympathy.

  293. Can they continue the trial without the defendant being present? The KSL story implies the hearing will still go on today anyway. Doesn’t that cause some legal complications?

    Also, it bothers me how he only wears a thin pair of scrubs when you can obviously see the snow piled up in the photos of him being escorted into the courthouse. Baby, it’s COLD outside!

    Does the jail not issue him a coat, or does Mitchell just refuse to wear a coat?

  294. Yea S, I first thought that his seizure could all be just an act to get attention. Maybe he has run out of Christmas carols to sing and needed some new material to piss off the judge.

  295. I would put my money on pseudoseizure in this case. He is very manipulative.

  296. As a reminder, the Utah Supreme Court will hear at 11:00 AM today the appeal by Willie Jessop, Merlin Jessop, Dan Johnson, and Bishops Lyle Jeffs and James Oler. Streaming audio of the arguments will be available here:

  297. Struwelpeter – refresh my memory, what is the appeal about ?

  298. Whether Judge Lindberg erred in denying motions to intervene brought by those individuals.

  299. Polygamists surely have clown genes.

  300. Struwelpeter thanks for the tip. I’m gonna go pop some popcorn and sit back for some great laughs!

  301. S, see Anonymous at 9:30 AM posting on this hearing

  302. Struwwelpeter describes a boy who does not groom himself properly and is consequently unpopular.


  304. Gee, Attila you’ve never noticed Willie outside of the Courtroom, with his big red nose?
    Of course it is genetics.

    Bile M under house arrest from his internet provider, too funny!

  305. is it just my computer, or has the live streaming video from SCOU not started yet ?

  306. You have to love the Crown counsel Craig Jones opening statement, on 11/23/2010 before the British Columbia Supreme Court, considering legality of existing polygamy statues. His four concise points on continuing and affirming polygamies illegal status, were : A.) Existing marital contracts are monogamy and not polygamy, B.) Protection and equality of marital partners, C.) Current statutes defend against domination by either partner or unwanted future progeny, i.e. ‘Lost Boys’, apostates, etc. D.) Forced membership and stigmatization from polygyny lifestyle.

    Additionally, International Courts are moving toward ending polygamy as an accepted marital status, owing to it’s inherent inequalities, abuses and impoverished consequences involved in most cases.

  307. CaJim, Great to see you here again.

  308. “Kill the messenger, again. Texas seems to be upset that I want them to stop killing foster children at Daystar. FLDS.WS suspended again.”

    from Bill Medvecky’s Twitter account, about 3 hours ago via web

  309. Mark Twain’s English translation of the book Struwwelpeter is called “Slovenly Peter.”

  310. RIP wotzitzname Bill Mudpucky.

  311. Read this about patriarchy:
    This sentence says a lot:

  312. I think he’s blaming the wrong group. I’d be looking to NH if I were him.

  313. Betty said: “I suspect that the reasons for inaction are complex and as varied as the number of people involved.”

    This is very true. I am a NON-Mormon from St George, UT. I will attempt to take a stab at this can of worms. Yes, we have a live and let live approach with our neighbors and we have coexisted with them peacefully for decades.

    It has nothing to do with mutual respect between the LDS and FLDS. To even mention the FLDS around my LDS relatives would cause an angry tirade that rivals any rant I’ve ever seen on this site. They have nothing to do with each other. That being said, most of us, weather Mormon or not (again, I am not), have ancestors that were involved with the original church. Like anyone else, we are not ashamed of our heritage, nor should we be. We do not have any interest in treating our neighbors with the same type of religious persecution that our ancestors had thrust upon them.

    I now live in the Midwest near the Amish and Mennonites. The FLDS had a social role in UT almost identical to the one the Amish have here. They are friendly, polite folks who are devoutly religious, non-confrontational, and seemingly quite harmless (in public. I don’t pretend to know what goes on behind closed doors for either group). This was just my experience. Carolyn Jessop tells a very different story where St George residents would hurl rocks and insults. I have never seen that with my own eyes, but certainly don’t doubt that it happens.

  314. I felt sorry for the FLDS lawyers pleading their case to the Utah Supreme Court Justices today. The Justices kept asking “why didn’t you file …” over and over again and the lawyer kept saying “well, we didn’t”.

    I guess he didn’t have the courage to tell the Justices that Warren had made it clear that they were to “answer them (the courts) nothing”

    They will probably lose. Too bad. So sad.

  315. Furthermore, we certainly don’t condone their crimes against children. I just wanted to clarify that.

  316. NH is New Hampshire? Not Hardly? Now Hiring? I don’t get it.

  317. Nick Hanna?

  318. NH = New Hampshire. He’s been posting pictures of children in CPS custody in New Hampshire.

  319. Just checked the Utah dot gov website, and it still shows Warren Jeffs is still in Utah prison. Thought he would have been on his way here to Texas, wonder what hold up is?

    If above link works just enter jeffs name.

    Of course Utah officials may have left Jeffs name on prison roster after he left to throw off his followers.

  320. Medvecky was posting pictures of children under CPS care from NH with their names and medical information. I think that is why they shut him down.

  321. Ah, yes. I noticed that and wondered. That’s actually against the law in most places. Posting pictures of children online without the parental/gaurdian permission even with clothes on is generally frowned on.

  322. Polygamist Brian David Mitchell has been released from hospital and returned to jail, defense lawyers say trial resumes tomorrow. What ever happened to Mitchell must have been non-life threatening.

    From article: “He said Mitchell was back in the Salt Lake County Jail Tuesday afternoon.”

  323. sounds like they found he had a pseudoseizure …

  324. I’m wondering if Warren is fervently praying for the prison doors to blast open and free him so he won’t have to come to Texas. I doubt he’ll find the Tom Green County jail as comfortable of a place as Mojave County was. I think his visitation day will be Tuesdays, once in the morning and once in the evening, but a limited number each week, like 5 people and children count in the number. With those limitations, it could take years for all his wives and children to have a turn at visitation.

  325. Gotta give him credit for trying S.

  326. Medvecky was posting pictures of children under CPS care from NH with their names and medical information. I think that is why they shut him down.


    How does anyone even GET private information like that? And it certainly shows what a flaming hypocrite he is – he doesn’t care about the wellbeing of children, he’s only using them as tools in his own sick little fight with authority figures.

  327. So Vile Bile earns his rep for a reason! Surprised he wasnt supporting this other fundy mormon, Brian Mitchell.

    Seems like his type of guy. The world is a better place with these guys shut out of it.

  328. Mouse, best I could tell, he was getting information from the Grandmother. She posted at his site and also had the same pictures/information on her blog.

  329. Vorhees

    Very interesting post, thanks. I have been through the area and stopped at Wally world, and have seen my share of polygamists running in circles there.

    They dont act afraid that people are going to chuck insults or sticks or stones.

    I suppose the insults or overheard comments are encountered though, but what do you expect when you wear a halloween costume every day of the year?

    St George is on a highway and lots of people stop just travelling through and arent perhaps accustomed to seeing people in costume out and about in public.

    In the midwest I have been among the Amish too, even taken their pic and gotten the dark stare, but its what they have to live with when you dress in a funky getup and ride a horse and buggy through traffic.

    Or if you dress your mama and kiddies like you are extras in a remake of “Little House on the Prairie”…

    And thanks as well for noting what the local LDS think of them.

    I think they rise above it and dont waste the energy daily on insulting the FLDS in public. But I would like to see a good argument in the sewing section, perhaps a cat fight, with some LDS lady pulling those stylish flds braids and laying out an earful!

  330. I think Anon E Mouse hit the nail on the head. I have heard people defend Medvecky because the CPS/CASA system is corrupt and needs serious overhaul. That may be true, but the way he fights it shows that is not really his agenda. He consistently calls any authority figure ugly names, all parents (especially FATHERS) are always the right gaurdian for their children and the only motivation of people who work for low civil servant pay (often with master degrees) is the money the state is going to get from adoption procedures. He ignores the facts; for instance the number one abusers of children are their parents and the number one murderer of children is the male living in the household. Top that off with analogies for almost everything anyone does that are sexual and or violence based and quite graphic, such as equating a negotiation with LE to an oral sex act. I don’t understand why even people who are making a cause out of CPS reform listen to him for more than 5 minutes. Any one who regularly associates with him online is suspect in my mind.

    For instance, the case where a Texas child was removed from a Boston Hospital by the state of Texas. He claimed that Texas wants the child for adoption money so badly that they tracked the child down in Boston. The child has a serious, probably eventually fatal disease that will COST the state a lot of money for one thing and the child is probably not a hot commodity for adoption because of the illness. Second, the Boston Hospital called Texas because the doctors there noted symptoms they found disturbing when the child was checked in for treatment. So even when Medvecky sticks to his alleged topic of interest, he can’t be trusted to tell the whole truth or to look at any topic with an unprejudiced eye.

  331. In additional to Betty’s remarks above, Medvecky claimed that the girl with Fanconi’s Disease (Emma) was being forced to have a bone marrow transplant in Texas despite the fact that the doctors in Texas did not feel that they had the training to perform the procedure. He made it seem like the state of Texas was forcing untrained doctors to do a procedure they were not comfortable with in order to save the state of Texas money.
    This was NOT accurate. The girl had ALREADY undergone the bone marrow transplant and had stayed in the Boston hospital for several months when she was transferred back to Texas with the Boston doctor’s consent. So it was indeed a spin on his part, or he did not familiarize himself with the facts before he published them. Very irresponsible.

  332. I received this very disturbing email last night regarding the fundamentalist “Christian” polygamy movement. See below.

    “I heard something tonight that has me enraged… (Anonymous Male Christian Polygamist ) moved to ___________ (state in US) because he was interested in a 15 year old girl, the daughter of his “host’ family.. when he made his intentions known to the father, the mother.. who invited him to the area, asked (Anon Male Christian polygamist) and clan to find another place to live.
    But both families still “fellowship” together.

    Evidently (Anon Male Christian polygamist’s wife), named ******, had no idea what the ‘attraction’ was in ___________ (state in the USA).
    I heard that wife named ******* is very unhappy and pregnant… again..

    I also heard that these Christian polygamist men are talking “bride prices” for their virgin daughters !
    There was one that was asking a million for his 14 year old stepdaughter..the daughter of wife #2 from ___________ (foreign English speaking country)
    I have met this man and wife #1….”

    Apparently there is a problem with the Christian polygamy movement which is growing in scope

  333. Just got this alert from Yahoo, Warren is on his way.

    SAN ANTONIO (AP) Polygamist leader Jeffs extradited from Utah to Texas for trial on bigamy, sex assault charges

  334. Please Advise, my advice is that someone needs to call the cops. You can’t sell your children … at least not in America!

  335. Anon 10:19 am –

    I did not know what else to do, so I suggested calling the FBI.
    I was hoping that maybe Ron in Houston had some advice for me.

  336. Here’s a 2009 post discussing bride price; it even says that the woman’s consent is not required although it is recommended:

  337. #

    Just got this alert from Yahoo, Warren is on his way.

    SAN ANTONIO (AP) Polygamist leader Jeffs extradited from Utah to Texas for trial on bigamy, sex assault charges

    S said this on December 1, 2010 at 10:13 AM

    S you are right here’s a news article:

    Checked Tom Green county jail records, no listing for felonious profit, most likely ole Warren is a guest of Sheriff Doran’s jail, media reports indicate Warren will make his first appearance today in front of judge in San Angelo, TX. Wonder who is his lawyer?

    Will bowtie or pic show up?

    WhenWed, December 1, 9am – 12pm

    Looks like ole Warren is about to have his first encounter with Judge Walther, would love to see Warrens face when he meets the judge!

  339. Yes, FLDS Texas, I have seen that blog before. I was wondering if charging a bride price for an underaged girl constituted human trafficking.

  340. It seems that Warren has arrived in Texas – who was in the welcoming party ? Stamp – were you there ?

  341. I was wondering what happened to that guy. The day before yesterday his site showed indications of hacking.

    He made it seem like the state of Texas was forcing untrained doctors to do a procedure they were not comfortable with in order to save the state of Texas money.
    Well to be more precise actually, I thought he was pretty clear about the top experts in the field being at that hospital in Boston.

  342. Link to a CNN story on warren’s extradition. I think he will not leave Texas for an extended time.

  343. Well to be more precise actually, I thought he was pretty clear about the top experts in the field being at that hospital in Boston.

    and the top doctors in Boston had already completed the procedure when Bill started posting about Emma – yet BilL made it seem like the procedure had NOT been done yet due to financial haggling.
    The procedure was already completed – and so was her post op recuperation, yet Bill made it seem like the procedure was not done yet.

  344. LMAO, Warren got an early birthday present, Texas style!

  345. Alinusara has a technique of arguing that uses non-sequitor responses as if they were logical answers.

    Does Medvecky insinuate that Texas was forcing incompetent doctors on this child?
    Alin says “Well to be more precise actually, I thought he was pretty clear about the top experts in the field being at that hospital in Boston.”

    These two statements are not logically linked, the second does nothing to answer the first in any way. It’s the logical equivalent of this question and response pair:

    “When is Warren arriving in Texas?”
    “It was clearly stated that he is having blue berry pancakes for breakfast on the plane.”

    Although they may have in common the subject of Warren traveling, they are not a logically related pair of question and answer.

  346. Anon Numero Uno,

    He also made it sound as if Texas officials stormed up to Boston Hospital and drug the sick child from a hospital bed against the wishes of the doctors there and against her best health interests. But in fact, if you read the news article, the Boston Hospital contacted the Texas authorities to report their suspicions of medical neglect in the first place and the child was released from Boston into the care of Texas CPS. That’s not just spin; that’s a lie, either intentional or through negligence in verifying the facts.

  347. This just in from San Angelo

  348. Well Uncle ‘Warrant’ Jeffs was arraigned this morning after arriving from his Reagan County jail cell in Big Lake, Texas, at the Tom Green County courthouse. He was only formally read his charges and his rights and he requested more time to consult with his counsel before entering his plea.

    Smartly dressed with the latest orange jailhouse jumpsuit and a grey pullover sweatshirt, he projected that unmistakeable image of a convicted felon, which matches his nefarious reputation. Once proclaimed as a chosen prophet and today just another FLDS member facing felony charges after 7 convictions out of 12 defendants charged. Seems 5 total visitors will be allowed to visit Jeffs per week, which means his wives will be restricted to only 20 celestial brides per month that can pay their respects in in person, it’s gonna take months for them to all visit. His trial won’t last long enough for even half of his wives to visit.

  349. Al’s pretty funny ain’t he, Betty.

  350. Here’s a link with photos of the felonious profit himself, ole Warren didn’t even have one lawyer with him, guess ole Pic & Wally bowtie don’t have the guts to show up in a Texas courtroom.

  351. Elizabeth Smart stormed out of courtroom today after defense witness implied she wanted to get pregnant with Mitchell’s child and even had picked out a name. Vile trash defense lawyers attacking victims, they are nothing but white trash!

  352. This some rough stuff to read:

  353. Schleicher County Commissioners are entertaining an idea to expand the weed control efforts to include varmint eradication and apply lawful pressures to lower the fertility cycles of suspected/convicted pests. The growing concerns and conviction rates have focused attention on how to best manage and eradicate this infestation. Consultation with Texas wildlife wardens and helpful Texas Rangers have only underscored the limited means of control. Wildlife game wardens are reluctant to issue trapping permits and the Texas Rangers doubt that posses alone would prove to be cost effective. The identified varmints are already known to have taken up residence(s) behind high fences and have gone underground. Only means currently employed is to control the varmints by Jury trials and jail.

    This is of great concern to the Commissioners and costly to control satisfactorily, some acceptable means of varmint eradication must be adopted by Schleicher County if a effective means of fertility control is not found.

    A volunteer citizens action committee, named ‘Varmint FLDS Vamoose’ League hope to announce schedule gatherings, soon.

  354. Granny, sometimes laughing is the best response.

  355. Hi, Granny and Betty. It’s really me, California Jim not Mr. ‘Pliggy’!

  356. Hi CaJim, we know you’re not Pliggy. Welcome back

  357. welcome back cajim.

  358. Free the FLDS Children – AKA The Freedom Liberty Defenders Society Shut Down by NH DCYF
    Free the FLDS Children – AKA The Freedom Liberty Defenders Society web-site has been
    shut down by NH DCYF due to my grandson Austin Knightly’s doped up picture, so we’ve been told.
    Bill Medvecky has been an adamant fighter for children and their families, abused by DCYF/CPS and the court’s for quite some time. He refuses to cave in to the whim’s of this rogue government agency and refused to take Austin’s picture down.
    Austin was removed from his mother’s care on January 21st, 2006 after she was accused by Nashua, NH DCYF of being intoxicated at Nashua DCYF’s cohort hospital in Nashua. Missing lab report’s for that night surfaced six month’s after Austin was taken. Criminal charges of child endangerment were dropped, but her son was never returned because the Judge denied her the right to present her new evidence proving innocence. DCYF vowed to do whatever they could to keep Austin from his mother permanently.
    After Austin was placed in foster care, he tried to hang himself. He became extremely violent. He threw a TV at the stranger’s and went after household member’s with a baseball bat. He kicked and punched the stranger’s and had temper tantrum’s. He was six at the time. He begged and pleaded to all parties that all he wanted was his grandfather.
    Instead of putting Austin’s best interest’s before anything else, Austin was admitted to a NH psychiatric hospital, where the Doctor told us the only thing wrong with Austin is that he wanted his family. We spoke to Austin once, which changed his whole demeanor. He was no longer the violent little boy that was admitted to the hospital that late September evening. After the Nashua DCYF Supervisor heard that we spoke to Austin, we weren’t allowed phone call’s or visit’s. Only the stranger’s were allowed call’s and visit’s.
    Austin was then fed psycho-tropic drug’s for his new-found violent behavior. He was later put on Adderral without his mother’s permission. God only know’s what their drugging him with now.
    The picture above of Austin was taken at the children’s home where he was placed after the stranger’s home. This is a picture he chose to send us. Do you think he is trying to tell us something? I believe he is. I also believe he know’s we are still fighting for him and will never give up. I believe he also know’s WHO the enemy is and it sure as hell isn’t his REAL family. All the drug’s in the world won’t make him forget the Hell Nashua DCYF and the court’s have put him through.
    Free the FLD’s WILL be back up and running. Bill won’t give up on Austin any more than we will! Thank you Bill for all your help. Austin and Isabella both will know who tried to help them and who held them hostage!

  359. Huh? What’s that crap up there?

  360. it’s the grandmother’s crap, the one who gave the information to mad bill.

  361. Yeah, I did figure that out and that the poor woman is clueless what polygamy and sexual abuse of their children is about.


    has video of warren’s arrival.

  363. Carolyn McEnrue says he has to be tried within 120 days due to extradition law.

  364. I bet Texas can do that in 120 days no matter how many tricks Warren tries to pull. Even throwing fits or playing nuckingfutz in a courtroom. I don’t know if he knows any Christmas carols to warble. Maybe he can whistle Dixie.

  365. Here’s what Mike Watkiss had to say about Warren Jeffs arrival in Texas, also Randy Mankin from Eldorado Success newspaper was also interviewed:

    Watch the video link at site.

  366. I would imagine that the AG’s office could be ready to go by tomorrow, except for filing his bad acts pleading. That might take a forklift to lift.

  367. The Vanessa who Warren said had to be blood atoned who fled to Canada, what was her last name?

  368. I heard there was some concern over the cost of prosecuting these pedo perps.

    REALLY? I mean….. REALLY…????

    Heck I’s pay triple what it costs!

    And they ought to impound all their Real Estate and belongings and sell them for restitution, just like drug dealers.

    Strip their as-sets bare!

  369. IMO the poster: Anonymous said this on December 1, 2010 at 5:42 PM
    Must be drinking the same koolaid as Jeffs & Mitchell, and Bill needs to join them in lockdown.

  370. I wonder where that rant wsa gathered? Yeah, if Bills site makes it back up itll probably get taken down again.

    He keeps asking for it. He doesnt know from one day to the next who is going to knock on his door.

  371. The Vanessa who Warren said had to be blood atoned who fled to Canada, what was her last name?


  372. Thanks Cat, I wasn’t sure if Rohbock was her last name or not. I thought the boy who loved her and turned her in was a Rohbock.

  373. Wonder of Willie’s driving like a bat out of hell to get back from Utah in Warren’s time of need?

  374. I wonder if Naomie has found a suitable abode in Big Lake?

  375. Speaking of drinking koolaid, one must wonder if the defense witness in the Mitchell trial is drinking from the same batch as Jeffs & Mitchell.

    A defense expert on the stand today implied that Elizabeth Smart wanted to get pregnant and had picked out a baby name, when this fool expert witness stated his lies, Elizabeth Smart left the courtroom in tears, later the witness tried to apologize, and Elizabeth Smart told him off, she had returned after leaving. This all happened front of the shocked jury in open court. So it has happened, the putting the victim on trial by defense lawyers. The quack doctor’s name Paul Whitehead, he should be brought up on ethics charges IMO!
    From news article:

    He had just begun to say something to Elizabeth’s father, Ed Smart,
    when a still visibly angry Elizabeth Smart turned and said something to
    Whitehead, who immediately turned around and walked away.

    “Smart, sitting in the audience, shot Whitehead a sharp look and then stormed out of the courtroom.

    She later returned with her parents after a court break. Her eyes were
    red, and she appeared to have been crying. She still appeared upset.”

  376. Why drive, take the school district’s light aircraft that was stolen.

  377. He usually flies commercial, but the last few trips he has driven. Wonder if the defense fund is raiding the coffers and poor Willie has to drive instead of fly.

  378. Here’s more on Jeffs stay in Texas, and IMO is going to be a long one!

  379. Anon 10:39 said ole Willie the thug is going to have to drive, and boy is he going to drive, 40 miles to San Angelo from YFZ and around 70 miles west to Big Lake, TX, then back again just to see his felonious leader!

  380. Willie the Thug doesn’t live in Texas.

  381. It was posted earlier on this site the dictations Mitchell as well as Jeffs dictations, the complete copy of Mitchell’s Book of Immanuel David Isaiah was released today:

    Compare with Warren Jeffs writing such as the proclamation posted on this site as well. Also see:

  382. Where is Willie the Thug currently residing ? Colorado City ?

  383. #

    Willie the Thug doesn’t live in Texas.

    GrannyToad said this on December 1, 2010 at 11:08 PM

    He will as long as his felonious leader is here, he’s probably rushing from Utah to get here, and he’s too cheap to stay at a motel, so he will stay at YFZ where he can have access to his “wives”!

  384. another article on Mitchell :

  385. Willie and his wives aren’t worthy of Zion. The wives are in Short Creek with the kids and Willie stays at a house in San Angelo. He doesn’t stay at the Ranch. I think his official residence is Hildale. His house is on the Utah side of the twin cities.

  386. #

    another article on Mitchell :

    catwhisperer said this on December 1, 2010 at 11:23 PM

    I would have to say that I agree with writer of article that the jury will give Mitchell the harshest verdict guilty! Off to Supermax or Leavenworth with him!

  387. Thanks Cat, I wasn’t sure if Rohbock was her last name or not. I thought the boy who loved her and turned her in was a Rohbock.

    Anonymous said this on December 1, 2010 at 10:02 PM

    These are 2 different girls. The Rohbock boy you mentioned was in love with Ruby Jessop.

    Vanessa Rohbock (Ron’s daughter) was threatened with blood atonement by Warren and ran to Canada to get help from Winston Blackmore.

  388. The KLST video linked to above says Warren will have 3 separate trials – one for each charge.

    Why would they do that? Why not lump them all together into one case? Wouldn’t hearing about both of the 2 child brides at the same time have more impact on the jury?

  389. Thanks Anon @ 11:50. Ruby Jessop is the one who’s Flora’s sister, right?

    Is Ron’s daughter Vanessa still in the cult? I know she was married to one of Warren’s brothers for a while.

  390. I think the separate trials are because one is sexual assault and the other is aggravated sexual assault. I think the plain vanilla sexual assault will be the first trial.

  391. Here’s an article just posted by SLTrib on it’s website, note that it contains graphic details as newspaper notes at beginning of article:

    I’m sure that when Jeffs goes on trial will all will hear even worse.

  392. Here’s a comment that was of interest from SLtrib blog:

    If Mitchell is insane because he believes he’s a prophet, yet Warren Jeffs believes he’s a prophet and is considered sane, what’s the difference?

    Mitchell sings in court, yet acts normal outside of the courtroom and is considered insane by defense lawyers, Warren Jeffs exhibits even more insane behavior, praying for hours on his knees until they bleed, Warren Jeffs goes on “fast” until prison officials are forced to force feed Jeffs to prevent death. Yet Jeffs is considered competent and sane.

    Mitchell from what I hear is a model inmate, doesn’t go on fasts, or pray in a manner that he’s injured. Mitchell for the most part IMO appears quite sane when compared to Warren Jeffs. Both Mitchell & Jeffs are accused of similar crimes, marrying under aged girls as”plural wives”. Strange the one that is considered sane is a risk to himself because he believes he’s a prophet and requires forced feeding to prevent death, and the one that is not a risk to himself, who only sings in court, is considered insane go figure?

  393. now Granny, be nice – LOL

  394. Great find Texan!

    Yes, indeed, Warren appears even more delusional than Brian Mitchell.

    Mitchell and Jeffs both knew what they were doing was wrong and illegal yet felt they could put themselves above the law.

    It hasnt been a good year for these prophets, kind of like their own personal “end times” of their criminal life!

  395. Here is a good perp walk video of Bobbleheaded Bozo Jeffs getting his Texas style escort.

    Buh Bye, Utah!

  396. I am confused. The lower court judge slapped the hands of FLDS and allowed the UEP sale to continue…. and again said there should be a stand down.
    Then the FLDS show up in the Supreme Court less than two weeks later …
    Can somebody fill me in – is this the last possible stop for them with respect to the UEP? or can it go on….. and on……and on?

  397. I’m confused also.

  398. IMO, the UEP issue will go on for years until the legal bills consume the entire trust. I think the flds are playing a scorched earth policy regarding the UEP.

  399. I fear chemist is right. Rather the whole thing is thrown away than one apostate gets a single dime from it.

  400. now Granny, be nice – LOL

    Anonymous said this on December 2, 2010 at 1:52 AM

    I’m not nice? What’s that about? More selective deletions this AM?

  401. Catch today’s Safety Net Committee meeting and hear how they can help decriminalize polygamy in Utah and Arizona.

    It starts in a few minutes.

  402. Almost time for a new thread.

  403. Why? It’s more fancyfootwork, smoke and mirrors from polygamists, isn’t it?

  404. If Mitchell is insane because he believes he’s a prophet, yet Warren Jeffs believes he’s a prophet and is considered sane, what’s the difference?


    I thought Mitchell had been declared competent, but is trying to weasle his way out by playing insane.

    Warren isn’t insane, he just thinks he’s right, and he’s not.

  405. Is the Trib Polygamy News link broken? It has only been showing old stories, now it says “no stories.”

  406. There’s a difference between ‘not guilty by reason of insanity’ and have mental health problems. I personally think Warren has some mental health problems.

  407. Please continue on Open Discussion #43.

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