Open Discussion #41

Continued from Open Discussion #40

Utah’s response to Warren’s Motion for Writ of Habeas Corpus

~ by FLDS TEXAS on October 24, 2010.

359 Responses to “Open Discussion #41”

  1. Leaving a message on a new Open Discussion is like being the first person to walk on freshly fallen snow.

  2. Very nice analogy, Betty. 🙂

  3. You notice I had to go out and stomp around in the snow. LOL!

  4. For this string, I thought it might be instructive if we cataloged a new “list” – this “list” would document various religious practices and mandates which cannot and should not be permitted in a just society as these practices would violate the civil rights of others –

    For example,

    1)The Hindu Laws of Manu permit and codify regulations which permit discrimination against those of lower castes. Discrimination of any kind based on race, color, caste, gender, or creed cannot be tolerated.

    2) The practice of Sati as described and recommended in Hindu Scriptural texts cannot be permitted.

    Please feel free to add to the list –

  5. Here are some other religiously based regulations which should not be permitted in a just society –

    3) The Biblical punishment for adultery is stoning, see Deuteronomy 22:22, also in the Qu’ran

    4) Exodus 22:18 mandates the execution of witches

    5) Leviticus 20:14 mandates the execution of gays and lesbians

    6) Exodus 21:7 permits a parent to sell their daughter into slavery

    7) Disobedient sons are to be executed – Deuteronomy 21:21

  6. Excellent idea. I will think on this.

  7. Commentary by a clinical psychologist on the Sister Wives Program and her work with females in polygamist marriages :

  8. Interesting commentary fer shure. About the same opinion as I’d have.

  9. Different country up at Denton, I enjoyed the heck out of the rain, the college town environment. Now why would I like that more than this suburban nowhere. Guess after all the decades of college, university environment, I still miss it.

  10. Ex polygamist commentary on the Sister Wives program :

  11. The woman in the video above, Rebecca Kimbel, has an excellent website on polygamy. She is Irene Spencer’s sister.

  12. Continuing my list on religious practices or mandates which are not tolerated in the US. Feel free to join in if you think of any religious laws or mandates which cannot be practiced in the US. So far we have the following :

    1)The Hindu Laws of Manu permit and codify regulations which allow discrimination against those of lower castes. Discrimination of any kind based on race, color, caste, gender, or creed cannot be tolerated.

    2) The practice of Sati as described and recommended in Hindu Scriptural texts cannot be permitted.

    3) The Biblical punishment for adultery is stoning, see Deuteronomy 22:22, see also Leviticus 20:10, see also the Qu’ran & the Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin.

    4) Exodus 22:18 mandates the execution of witches

    5) Leviticus 20:13 mandates the execution of gays and lesbians

    6) Exodus 21:7 permits a parent to sell their daughter into slavery

    7) Disobedient sons are to be executed – Deuteronomy 21:21

    8) Punishment for Bestiality is death of the perpetrator and the innocent animal – see Leviticus 20 : 15,16

    9) Cursing one or both of your parents is to be punished by death – see Leviticus 20:9

    10) A man who has intercourse with his mother in law is to be burned alive with his mother in law – see Leviticus 20:14, see also the Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 9:1

    11) Penalty for Incest – death – see Leviticus Chapter 20, also see the Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 7:4, and Sanhedrin 9:1

  13. She is a pistol. I like her a lot.

  14. More from ex FLDS member Rebecca Kimbel – she speaks of her life changing visit to the home of a Catholic woman who sheltered her family during a police raid – Very touching, please watch

  15. Dear Moderator,
    I was thinking that we could have reader’s pick page where all of the links that have been posted could, if approved, be placed so you don’t have to scroll back through various discussion boards to find a link somebody made to an interesting video or article related to polygamy and jeffs?

  16. Long delayed polygamy trial may actually get under way in Utah. After nearly 8 years the trial of polygamist wannabe Brain David Mitchell. News media reports indicate that Elizabeth Smart the victim of Mitchell will be returning to USA from Paris, France where she now lives and works as a missionary for LDS church.

    Should be interesting to compare actions of Mitchell with those of Warren Jeffs. It will certainly shine a light on Utah and the polygamy issue.

    One can only wonder if Mitchell’s nearly nine months of eluding police and the best of the FBI might have emboldened Warren Jeffs in his actions to openly defy society by “marrying” under aged girls. Perhaps ole Warren thought, if this wannabe prophet Mitchell can get away with it, think what I could get away with as a “real” prophet with thousands of followers and millions of dollars available.

    Like Mitchell IMO, reality caught up with ole Warren Jeffs, now he faces life in Texas wearing all white clothes, the inmates uniform of the Texas prison system where will certainly sing those Texas prison blues.

  17. A new “movement” in Vermont…

  18. I was very impressed by the testimony of Rebekkah Kimbal.
    I hope her videos reach a lot of people.

  19. Jury selection underway in Dutson trial today

  20. any updates on the Dutson trial jury selection ?

  21. Heard that there was a change of venue hearing at 9:00 today, jury was supposed to report at 1:00 to be certified. Nothing more at this time.

  22. I don’t know if I can ask this here but what are you talking about? Dutson’s jury? How can it be certified if there’s a change of venue?

  23. Maybe no one expected the change of venue to be granted.

  24. So that part was maybe no more than a hilarious hail mary morning?

  25. they had 36 who were told to come back at 1:00. That would give enough for the attorneys strikes and still have enough to be a jury. if the change of venue had been granted it would have all started over in a new location, but it was denied and therefore opening arguments are suppose to have started at 2:15.

  26. wow, they subpoenaed matt waller to testify. hudson is really grasping at straws, trying to change the venue back to a place it has already been moved from.

  27. Nobody ever called FLDS smart. I mean, couldn’t Dutson have just legally married the woman he calls his wife any time up to and including yesterday?

  28. So did the change of venue get granted, or is the trial being moved?

  29. Nope, DD, they get to face the courts and judge they’ve been arrogantly slapping around right there in San Angelo.

  30. The Judge changed it on her own Motion and Brandon Hudson, the attorney for Dutson decided to piss the Judge off before the case even got going good by filing to move it back to Schleicher County. As for the man in question, yes he could have married the girl at any time but chose not to.

  31. Just imagine, the ONLY reporter who reported on the YFZ unbiased and accurately, getting sniped at by that eyesole Hudson.

  32. I think a lot think that he is bias TOWARD the FLDS.

  33. Seems to me that Walker sees the FLDS clearly and wants someone to prosecute them for real. Besides, it’s good TV.

  34. this ought to be good, stephanie’s on the case with brandon. they did such a bang up job with abram, they were brought back for round 2. actually, of those tried, abram got the least sentence, so maybe this is their reward.

  35. So I was reading about Deb Lee, she is a nurse but cant count?

    What happened there? How would a nurse forget it takes 9 months to cook a baby?

  36. Here is another child abuse cult operating under the guise of “religion”.

    The organization works through many fronts and is internationally as well as locally known. It was originally started by David Berg (aka Father Moses) in Washington State. It was 1st called Children of God…Then Family of Love…Then The Family. It is now known as The Family International. They operate behind a smokescreen of “We Love Jesus and Only Do Works of Ministry”…when in reality they are sadistically pillaging and raping families…operating child sex rings…and viciously tearing apart families and parents who take a stand against such treatment.

  37. Cupcake is a law unto itself.

  38. So I was reading about Deb Lee, she is a nurse but cant count?

    What happened there? How would a nurse forget it takes 9 months to cook a baby?

    She is a psychiatric nurse. She obviously has issues with counting.

  39. psychiatric or psycho

    That is the question!

  40. TexasFLDS admin, the top document “Utah’s response to Warren’s Motion for Writ of Habeas Corpus” has a file extension of pfd instead of pdf and it won’t open.

    Can you correct it please?

  41. I’m thinking more along the lines of psycho, Chaps.

  42. There is a new opera about a woman who leaves the FLDS

  43. any updates from the Dutson Trial ?

  44. Nuthin other than that noodnik Hudson said he planned to jump up and down a lot making objections.

  45. Should be fixed now, thanks for the heads up.

  46. GrannyToad, those “jumping up and down motions” are income generating gyrations. Some other FLDS lawyers make numerous “legal motions” (like Picaretta), but they are still just gyrations with a big Kaching. Wally Bugden does them in a Lotus position sitting in the middle of the road. But they still make the Kaching sound.

    It’s all just becoming a personal style here to try to make a statement and suck up the faithful’s money.
    So many lawyers … so little time.

  47. Huh. Is Wally trying to fly? Will tithers pay extra if he can?

    I’m unfamiliar with crass courtroom clowns but I have seen some things in the middle of the road. Old tennierunners, roadkill, sunglasses with one lens, stuff like that. I was reading what Ann Landers had said about noodniks, couldn’t help but grin.

  48. Hudson questioned the DNA evidence, kindasorta.

  49. Those motions by the State of Utah to dismiss Warren’s petitions are a good read, not long and to the point.

  50. I can’t believe that the defense is trying to say that these people are so inbred that you can’t tell whether or not this child was having sex with multiple men. How disgusting.

  51. When all you’ve got is the “they is all inbred” defense, you know it’s going downhill fast…

  52. GrannyToad, Bugden was drunk and sitting in the middle of the road when he was arrested. He lucked out on not becoming roadkill.

    Attorney for Jeffs arrested in Ivins
    By Aaron Falk
    Deseret News
    Originally published Saturday, Feb. 7, 2009

    IVINS, Washington County — An attorney for polygamous sect leader Warren Jeffs was arrested on investigation of public intoxication early Saturday. Walter F. Bugden, 58, was arrested by Ivins police at 1:38 a.m. and booked into the Washington County Jail, according to records on the jail’s Web site. Bugden, of Salt Lake City, posted $182 and was released. Ivins Police Sgt. Tracy Marrott said Saturday he could not discuss the details of the arrest. Bugden was one of several lawyers to represent Jeffs, the leader of the Fundamentalist LDS Church, during his criminal prosecution in Utah.

  53. You know you’re from Short Creek when your uncle is also your brother and your cousin.

  54. So, I learned that a Thomas Barlow, age 13, was killed in Shortcreek while riding a quad.

    Wonder what penalties the parents will see for this negligence.

    AFAIK the age to legally drive them is 16. Not to mention if he was driving on a public street to / from the accident scene which is illegal too, and likely enabled by all who feel it was his God given right to do whatever he saw fit, seeing 13 is a mature age and all.

    Guess we can lay blame on the lax enforcement out there too for contributing to this as well, as there seem to be no laws enforced against FLDS whatsoever.

  55. Here is an excerpt from Debbie Palmer’s book “Keep Sweet”. Debbie was raised in Bountiful, Canada.

    It doesn’t get much weirder than this and her story started with her first assigned marriage to Winston Blackmore’s father 40 years ago. Just imagine the genealogical mess the FLDS is in today.

    “My father had six wives and I have forty-seven brothers and sisters. My oldest daughter is my aunt and I am her grandmother. When I was assigned to marry my first husband, I became my own step-grandmother since my father was already married to two daughters of my new husband. According to the eternal laws of the polygamous group I grew up with, I will be a step-grandmother to many of my siblings for ‘all time and eternity.’

  56. Anon

    To fix that, sometimes Warren marries them for just “time”.

    That way, its less confusing.

    However, it does give a new perspective to the term “doing time”…

  57. So, these people are living a “higher” law, are “moral”, “upright”, and oh so “holy” but they aren’t going to stand up and claim their own children? Instead, they would rather trash the mother’s reputation by claiming she had a child by someone other than the man she was assigned to? What total cowards and slimeballs!

  58. Yes. Swine.

  59. From the link

    “The court held a hearing outside the jury’s presence during which Hudson brought up issues such as the possibility of inbreeding not having been taken into proper consideration”

    Talk about slime, bringing out the old tried and true “But Occifer we is inbred!” defense.


    No wonder Utah is glad to be rid of them!

  60. Stamp, that is such sad news about the Barlow boy. The local cops probably won’t do ANYTHING because the FLDS are too busy ruling their own Shortcreek planet as gods and goddesses.

    Maybe you should ask the local newspaper to have a reporter investigate it.

  61. not to mention the “my wife could have slept with my brother to make that baby” defense, Stamp.

  62. They went from “It could have been my brother” to “we dont know which dirty father it were, it could be any one of us inbreds, and hey, where was Warren that day?”…

  63. Maybe Hudson will bring in a shoebox with all the YFZ men’s names in it and the box will be labeled “PICK A DADDY”…

  64. Well the evidence don’t lie, prosecutors hammering defense in Dutson trial. Hudson the defense attorney said “This will prejudice the jury,”. Wonder where this dude got his law degree, from a box of Cracker jacks? Of course the evidence will prove the guilt of his client, he thinks it’s prejudice, no it’s not, it’s evidence, the smoking gun.

  65. Hudson should have used the “White Flag” defense.

    Denial just makes you look evil. But then…

  66. Hudson’s up and down a lot today. He may be checking to see if he’s laid an egg yet for all I can tell.

  67. Sounds to me like Hudson’s trying to get room and board in the County jail for the weekend.

  68. Does he cluck like a Turkey too?

  69. Does anyone else find it odd that Dutson Sr. isn’t attending the trial supporting his son. I mean even the deadbeat dad showed up for Raymond’s trial.

  70. Down here they don’t seem to cluck much. But hey when I grew me some poults, one stood on his own foot and didn’t know how to get going from there, raised a big ol fuss til he fell over. And I knew of a tom turkey that raped a chicken hen.

  71. Anon, nobody’s said much who’s there or isn’t, that I’d read. Mostly FLDS steer wide and clear of Texas courtrooms lately, don’t they?

    And then there’s Willie!

    Maybe only one clown show onstage per courtroom showing?

  72. Could be, but I’ve asked around and the only FLDS who are attending this showing are Willie and Forrest. It’s a shame that Papa Dutson can’t be bothered to show up in the courtroom and support his son and namesake.

    Wouldn’t it be a hoot to trot Papa Keate out from prison for an appearance. He’s the daddy of the victim.

    Just read that Brandon argued about Becky Musser being used as an expert witness. Guess he doesn’t like the fact that she keeps kicking his butt.

  73. What’s not to like!

  74. Anon, would that be Forrest Gump who’s attending with Willie the Thug?

  75. Actually Forrest Steed.

  76. “Wouldn’t it be a hoot to trot Papa Keate out from prison for an appearance. He’s the daddy of the victim.”

    Thats how it works, isnt it?

    “I’ll trade you my 14 year old tweener for that’n over there, and we’ll get Warren to say God told him to do it!”

  77. BTW

    Is Barbara allowing Forrest “steed” back in? I thought he was caught with contraband. Perhaps his banning was for only one trial?

  78. Wonder if Hudson has gotten into the science of FLDS inbreeding, is Dutson a level 4, or level 5 inbred?

  79. contraband as in a camera?

  80. Or recording device, or cell phone. I dont recall which one it was, maybe someone else does. But he broke the rules on purpose, and as I recall he was banned from attending the rest of that trial.

    Evidently rules arent for the FLDS. OOOPSy that was back in Utah.

  81. it was a recording device, i think. i don’t think there is much chance of him getting that kind of thing past the sheriff’s who man the door at the TGC Courthouse. They don’t have a sense of humor about that kind of stuff.

    Wendell’s attorney got caught with his iPhone ringing and it became the baliff’s. Not sure what it cost him to get that back.

  82. James Bond he’s not. Betcha he gets the double pat down now!

    ooohhhh WEEE!

  83. Usually you go through the metal detector which is set very high and if you beep it you get wanded. I’m talking underwire bras set the thing off.

  84. Wonder how he got it through last time, or did they catch him at the detector?

  85. Can someone help me? When was the law changed in Texas raising the legal age of marriage. Doesn’t Dutson’s case fall before this law went into effect? And if so, why didn’t he marry the girl, since he obviously would have had parental consent?

  86. One can only surmise they needed judicial consent beyond parental consent, and to this date I dont think they have asked permission from any judge for an under age marriage.

    You can guess why.

  87. I found another Elissa Wall reaction to the ruling:

    The ruling today by the Utah Supreme Court to overturn Warren Jeffs conviction is unfortunate. I am sadden and disappointed. But, it is important to understand that we are dealing with a highly complex and imperfect system that is working to bring about justice in this case. It is a long and difficult process.

    You can label the facts to be whatever your perspective is, but the truth remains the same, wrongs have been done and justice has not been satisfied. The Utah Court overruled the jury’s decision based on nothing more than a technicality. The facts have not changed, they remain the same. Warren Jeffs placed me in an unwanted “spiritual” Marriage when I was just 14. The abuses happened to me while in that phony “marriage” would never have happened without his absolute control over my life. Everyone on the Jury understood that.

    I would like to thank Brock Belnap and Washington County for
    their efforts to stop child abuse and their willingness to stand with me. I will forever hold the deepest respect and admiration for Brock and the prosecuting team. We cannot undo the past but we can do our best to insure wrong does not infect our future. My strongest desire is to
    bring justice to the people responsible for the wrongs that have flourished in the FLDS community. I am committed to doing my part to end child abuse.

    This is just another chapter in this story. The end has not been written. With God on my side I will continue until the future for our
    children is a safer and brighter place.

    As Emily Dickinson so eloquently and beautiful put in words: “Opinion is a fleeting thing, but truth outlast the sun. ”

  88. Thanks, Stamp for your reply. I found this: to get a license, you need written parental consent on an official form in the presence of the county clerk or an order from the Texas district court authorizing your marriage.…es/p/texas.htm

    Bad move, not just zipping into the county clerk’s office…of course they probably were just trying to hide the fact that these young girls were being married off. But in this situation, a 21 yo and a 16 year old would not have set any alarms off (or 15 yo, i don’t know when they were “sealed”). Unlike, say, a 43 yo and a 16 yo. jmo

  89. While this case is the less egregious of the cluster, it still shows systemic child abuse.

    One problem is that there were probably many worse cases that have gone unprosecuted, as the marriages happened before the move in Utah or Arizona, (and so they arent prosecuting those).

    I commend Texas if they stand by a “zero tolerance” policy against child abuse as much as they can.

    Isnt it too bad the FLDS think they could get away with this behavior by putting children behind a locked gate and high fences?

  90. The marriage of someone under the legal age requires parental consent or in the event of no parental consent, the consent of a Judge. It doesn’t take both.

  91. I dont think even parents can legally consent to marry a 12 yr old.

    Isnt that one of the charges Merril faces?

  92. Had you meant Warren Jeffs?

  93. Warren was the lucky groom, Merril was the misfit father who gave his child to the pedo.

    Shoulda said “give consent to marry off his 12 yr old”

  94. Mmm good question. I’d not noticed any of those men having been indicted for pimping out their children. Sure oughta be though, and the mothers as well. The criminal swine damwell know better.

  95. The victim in the Dutson case’s sister was the victim in lehi barlow jeffs case and another sister is one of Warren’s victims.

  96. OK, that explains why they included Dutson. They are trying to send a message to families who donate under aged girls for sex.

  97. If this was a standout situation it wouldnt be that remarkable.

    In light of the other practices that have continued with that group, its sinister.

    Its like getting caught with only a little cocaine in a house that has 10 kilos ready for selling to the community.

    He was a party to the party. Hope this makes all of them think twice or even three times if they have to.

  98. Any chance the parents will be prosecuted?

  99. Merril I think is the only one so far and his trial is upcoming, that is if he can stay out of the hospital long enough

  100. Suing someone in civil court is more evil than raping children? Odd sense of values.

  101. Agreed that filing a civil suit against a pauper is legal; marrying and having sex with underage girls is illegal. Do the first and you might lose some money spent on legal fees. Do the second and you could face 75 years in prison like Allen Keates is.
    Seems to me that the second is not only no sense, but is really stupid!!

  102. Well, it’s a pretty good bet that Hugh has very little money of his own, but Medvecky pretends to be Daddy Warbucks. I’m personally curious to see what happens, although I don’t think that’s one of my more mature emotions.

  103. doubt mudpuppy is that wealthy. he lives in a solidly middle class (not upper class) neighborhood in florida. he is blowing smoke once more.

  104. There’s a shocker.

  105. In other news of indicted polygamists charged with child molesting, Dutson’s attorney says that computer records were fake.

    (No – Hudson – its Warren who is fake)

    And Brian Mitchell is getting himself a Jury put together – some 8 count em 8 years after he was captured.

    Betcha Warren is mad Brian is stealing the limelight and showing what a sleazeball these polygamists can be.

    Who would want to follow THAT act?

    His step daughter thinks he ought to be released – hmmmm wonder when that will happen?

  106. Some people think duttson should not be prosecuted because he has only one wife, albeit, an underage wife. Actually his case is consistent with the other Texas trials wherein underage marriage marriage and sex is the issue. It will be interesting to follow wendell’s case where the charges are bigamy.

    Yes, brian mitchell’s trial is for a crime comitted 8 years ago. However, he has been incarcerated since his arrest rather than being out on bond.

  107. Yeah, I dont see Texas giving Dutson a pass just because his case is less heinous than the others. I expect that he will get a lighter sentence than most though.

    IRT Mitchell, its really a shame its taken so long – Utah really dragged its feet on him and they should have moved it along so the victims could get past it sooner.

    Anyway its good to see its finally coming to trial, I trust the right thing will be done and his groupies can wring their hands in despair.

  108. I think that Dutson will get a lighter sentence as well – more like a wrist slap.

  109. I would be OK with a light sentence on this. They need to send the message to the organization, not to smaller players like Dutson, who while not innocent are certainly less responsible for this craziness.

  110. Depends on what a light response. The message is not really to Dutson but to the organization which means anybody in the organization needs to get a strong push back from the governement

  111. Wonder how many on the jury are sitting there thinking about the underage, unwed mother that lives down the street from them? I know I have 2 on my block….That said, i think Dutson may get probation.

  112. Dutson is not married unless he has a wife somewhere else. FLDS don’t marry in Texas. So far.

  113. Mauritanian women say no to polygamy : Pre marital contracts barring second polygamous marriages in Islam

  114. This sounds like a great description of Brian Mitchell. It’s from an article written about him in 2003, after he was captured. What a prince…a prince of darkness! –
    For three years Mitchell even worked at the Salt Lake Temple, where he portrayed Satan in staged temple rituals. So effective was he in the part that Mitchell made church officials uneasy.

    “They told me I was the best Lucifer they had ever seen,” Mitchell told his co-worker Larsen, “and could I please tone it down a bit?”

  115. I think the Texas law has something about purporting to be married which does apply to the flds “marriages”. Most of which are not legal marriages since warren and merril do not have the legal authority to marry people in Texas.

  116. From the same SL Trib article –
    Choosing a Different Path » Like many people, Vicki Cottrell believes Mitchell is sick. Cottrell, executive director of the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill in Utah, says people such as Mitchell who suffer from mental problems often cannot differentiate between divine revelations and delusions.

    hmmm. Sounds a lot like Warren.

  117. One of the country’s leading forensic psychiatrists (Dr Welner) thinks that Mitchell is not delusional – he is competent but manipulative

  118. This is hysterical. Can someone who knows how to embed videos on this blog add this video?

  119. Nice article, BiB.

    Really hypocritical that the Islamic leaders think monogamy will lead to divorce. I guess it doesn’t bother them when a man just abandons and stops providing for the first family in favor of the new one? And of course, the man is allowed to move on and find love when a marriage does not work out, but the woman is supposed to live in holy loneliness. What a crock.

  120. Chem, Texas does retain common law re marriage but it doesn’t override legal limitations like being underage or being already married, et alia. Miss Keate was underage when they went to having sex. I’m thinking that Dutson was also over the legal age difference for youngsters.

  121. GrannyToad: Thanks for the clarification on texas marriage laws.

  122. Yes Brian Mitchell is running a scam to try to get out of consequences for his actions.

  123. Brian Mithell scammed himself into a cellblock for the rest of his life. Just need to go through the motions now and throw away the key.

  124. So is Brooke Adams and the plural life out of the business?

  125. Seems that way – none of the articles linked in the polygamy section of the SLT are to her articles. She has written none of the last 7 or so…

  126. I have not tried to access Brooke’s blog for several weeks. Is it also inactive??

  127. Her blog is up, she posted a “Bye Big Love” article, but hasnt posted any comments in a long time. She has a few posts on twitter, but its noted, she hasnt written a thing for quite a while. Perhaps the SLTRIB has furloughed some of their reporters on a rotating basis.

  128. Here’s what a legal expert had to say about trial of polygamist Mitchell from Foxnews:

  129. Well that link for some reason doesn’t work, try again:

    Watch the video, interesting that terms used to describe Mitchell sound very much like those used to describe Warren Jeffs.

  130. Letters to Warren Jeffs from Dutson were shown to jurors, which IMO not only points to guilt of Dutson, but that of Jeffs as well.

    Read article:

  131. Mitchell, Jeffs, Berg…all of them are both delusional and manipulative. Read about David Berg and his sect if you can. He was reallly scarey. Dead now, but his work goes on in many countries. He’s left behind many ruined lives.

  132. ““She had been withdrawing from him His wife would hardly talk to him,” the report stated months after the alleged marriage ceremony.”

    The FLDS dont marry each others children to have someone to talk to.


  133. Hey MC, say I hadnt heard of that Berg fellow, but not surprised he was a pedophile.

  134. Then there is Xtra Evil Ervil.

    “Ervil Morrell LeBaron (February 22, 1925 – August 16, 1981) was the leader of a polygamous Mormon fundamentalist group who ordered the killings of many of his opponents, using the religious doctrine of blood atonement to justify the murders. He was sentenced to prison for orchestrating the murder of an opponent, and died in prison.

    He had at least 13 wives in a plural marriage, several of whom he married while they were still underage, and several of whom were involved in the murders.”

  135. I wonder if “Mrs. Dutson” really wants to be married to her “husband”

  136. From what I’ve heard, FLDS girls dont even know what marriage “IS” until given the news on their wedding nite.

    Sounds like she was sore about it for quite some time, once she learned what it meant for her. However, that fence keeps people out and it keeps people in, so who really cares?

    Once they are locked in, arent they just forgotten people left to the devices of important, trustworthy leaders?

  137. the Dutson case went to the jury at 4:30

  138. “Goodman and Hudson spent much of their allotted time working to discredit state witness Rebecca Musser, who authenticated documents taken from the ranch.

    “She is their so-called expert. She has every reason to be here and tear this person down,” Goodman said motioning to Dutson. “Not to be brave and truthful.”

    The defense brought out that Musser, an ex-FLDS member, had fraternized with law enforcement personnel.”

    LMAO they spent all their time whining about Rebecca Musser…

    OOOPS big mistake!

  139. Fraternized, eh?

    BTW I’m certain there is variation but to whomever that was up there, little girls are made quite aware of their sexuality at very early ages.

  140. fraternized? Like they are at war? Are they going to shave her head?

  141. The fraternize thing is still bugging me. What does that mean? Are they saying she has sex with cops? Or that she goes to their houses and has BBQ with the family? Or that she has testified as an expert witness before? Maybe that made sense if you are there, but it’s not making a lot of sense to me.

  142. From what I read, they were upset she smiled at LE, hugged some of them, and shared some food.

    Fraternizing. Of course, this behavior is VERBOTTEN amongst true fundies – so they are mad she isnt following the rules anymore.

    WAHHHH !!!!

  143. Hey crickers, is merril still hanging at the house with tires for a backyard?

  144. Ya know, ole poppa Dutson better think his lucky stars his underage wife wasn’t a fertile myrtle. he married Merril’s granddaughter when she was 16, but their daughter wasn’t born until the wife had already turned 18.

    In fact, Keith Jr’s son is about 6 month’s older than his aunt.

  145. OOPS, Keith was found guilty of sexually assaulting a little girl.

    SAN ANGELO, Texas — A Tom Green County jury found Keith William Dutson, Jr., a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, guilty of sexual assault of a child.

    Jurors deliberated more than five hours.

    This is a breaking news story. More details are in the process of being added.

  146. Wow, Keith Dutson, Jr. must have been so special that the chief-man-in-charge, Merril Jessop, would have traded one of his underage granddaughters to become Keith’s child bride.

    I can only imagine how proud papa Allen Keate is tonight; that another one of his darling daughters was traded for chattel.
    Hey Allen, did this child bride swap buy your ticket to heaven?

  147. “Hey Allen, did this child bride swap buy your ticket to heaven?…”

    I am always amazed to hear these people call themselves Christians, yet they believe that heaven, salvation, “a planet” or eternal glory can somehow be earned through polygamous marriage. This is a concept which is totally alien to New Testament dogma which they profess belief in…

  148. Cults be strange.

  149. It wasn’t Dutson Jr who got a Merril granddaughter, but his father, Dutson Sr.

  150. underaged granddaughter at that.

  151. The jury wanted to ask the judge if “ignorance of the law was an excuse”

    LMAO !!!

    Yeah, thats why they keep the children behind a locked gate and high fence, so they can all stay ignorant!

  152. OBTW.

    The Judge said no. Found guilty like the rest of them.

  153. I understand the fundies being mad at her for fraternizing. I don’t understand her lawyers drinking the Koolaid and thinking that is a real objection in a courtroom. Maybe she’s grateful to some of them for helping her live through the death threats.

  154. I think it’s ridiculous to claim that he did not know it was against the law with his prophet running from the law for that very thing at the time. Not to mention the documented trips by Doran to the ranch to inform them of the law.

    Who was it who was trying to drive the under aged girls off the ranch in the dark during the raid?

  155. Nexxxxxxxt.

  156. Check out the reality of polygamy in the webshow: Sista Wives

  157. when is the next trial ?

  158. Anyone here of the sentence yet? I think they are deliberating right now or are finished.

    Warren may be up next, unless Merril is out of the hospital and ship shape for trial.

  159. Here’s an old trial schedule. As you can see, Keith took a while to come to trial and I’m not sure how that affects the other trials but it looks like Wendell is next.

    * Keith William Dutson, July 26, 2010, sexual abuse of a child.

    * Wendell Loy Nielson, Sept. 7, 2010, three counts of bigamy.

    * Frederick Merril Jessop, Oct. 11, 2010, conducting an unlawful marriage ceremony involving a minor.

    * Leroy Johnson Steed, Dec. 6, 2010, first-degree felony sexual assault of a child, second-degree felony bigamy, third-degree felony bigamy and third-degree felony tampering with physical evidence.

  160. Per request:

    Lloyd Hammond Barlow – Failure to report Child Abuse – 3 counts; HAND-SLAPPED BY

    Keith William Dutson, Jr. – Sexual Assault of a child, 1 count; CONVICTED; sentence pending

    Michael George Emack – Sexual Assault of a child, 1 count; Bigamy, 1 count;
    PLED OUT, 7 years

    Abram Harker Jeffs – Sexual Assault of a child, 1 count; Bigamy, 1 count;
    CONVICTED, 17 years (Schleicher County jury?)

    Lehi Barlow Jeffs (aka Leroy Barlow Allred) – Sexual Assault of a child, 1
    count; Bigamy, 1 count: PLED OUT, 8 years

    Warren Steed Jeffs – Sexual Assautl of a Child, 1 count; Bigamy, 1 count;
    Aggravated Sexual Assault of a child; 1 count; UNDER EXTRADITION

    Raymond Merril Jessop, Sexual Assault of a child, 1 count; Bigamy, 1 count;
    CONVICTED, 10 years (Schleicher County jury)

    Allan Eugene Keate – Sexual Assault of a child, 1 count; CONVICTED, 33 years
    (Schleicher County jury)

    Frederick Merril Jessop – Unlawful Marriage Ceremony of a Minor Child – 3

    Wendell Loy Nielson – Bigamy, 3 counts; IN LINE

    Leroy Johnson Steed – Bigamy, 3 counts, (according to original news, Tampering
    with Evidence, 1 count); according to the Deseret News article Sexual Assault of
    a Child, 1 count; ________

    Leroy Merril Jessop, Sexual Assault of a child, 1 count, bigamy, 1 count;
    CONVICTED, 75 years (San Angelo Jury)

  161. I’m getting annoyed at the child abuse apologists for listing convictions in Texas for the same crime where men (or women) get 5-10 years. In each and every one of these cases they sight, the perp plead guilty. And notice that when an FLDS member plead guilty, the same thing happened. I agree that in some cases women offenders seem to get lighter sentences, which I personally think is wrong. I do not think that proves that religious persecution is in place, but more to a double standard for women in this case in their favor. Women get fewer execution sentences also.

  162. Vile Bile is the funny pages, you can expect everything he says to be wrong.

    For instance, he claims he is for children, but wants all the FLDS children back and penned up on the pedo ranch with the geezers Yearning For Zippers.

    Disturbia squared. Lord of the Flies and all that jazz.

  163. HHG

    Great video! LMAO

  164. If all this litigation leads to the legalization of polygamy in our country, I am afraid the billionaires would hoard as many women as they could afford, and those of us making less than seven figures would have to fight over the unwanted scraps. Those who make less than six figures? Forget it. There would probably be a lot more gay marriages among the poor for lack of other options. Joseph didn’t think this through very well.

  165. Brutus,

    You need look no further than Malaysia or Indonesia to see what the legalization of polygamy would look like in the US. These are modern industrialized societies wherein women are educated, employed outside the home, hold public office, and they have rights in the same way that women in the US do – but they must permit polygamy because it is primarily an Islamic (yet secular) country.

    The government would want a letter certifying that wife # 1 consents to her husband’s second marriage – or the government would want wife # 1 to attend the wedding itself to grant permission. Rarely would you actually see a legitimate authorization from the first wife, nor would you see the first wife attending the second marriage in most cases. There would be many forged letters of consent submitted by husbands seeking a second wife, and rarely would there be a prosecution of these men for fraud.

    The divorce rate for polygamous marriages would be between 70 – 75% as it is Malaysia and Indonesia, and the rate of divorce in marriages with four wives would be approximately 90%. Expect the results of the Malaysian polygamy study to be published in a peer review journal in Spring 2011 – it should be an interesting read.

  166. Brutus, crawl back under your rock

  167. oh, and Brutus – I forgot to mention that the incidence of domestic violence in polygamous marriages is approximately 50%… which is more than twice as high as the most liberal estimates of domestic violence in monogamous marriages…not to mention the increased rates of psychiatric hospitalization for treatment of depression with suicidal ideation seen in polygamous wives…

    In most industrialized, modern,secular and Westernized Moslem countries where polygamy is practiced, civil authorities are trying to eliminate polygamy … so why would we seek to legalize it here ?

  168. Which reminds me – the only wanna be plygger I know is a self confessed wife abuser. Imagine that!

  169. not only is the wannabe plygger a self confessed wife abuser, he also has a poor sense of boundaries – and he tells us that he would potentially be interested in 7 yr olds…

  170. We are waiting for the sentence to come out on Dutson, but another polygamy trial in Utah will bring more interest from the media.

    Opening arguments in trial of polygamist wannabe profit Mitchell begins Thursday. From news article, the motive for the crime, the same motive that got Warren Jeffs arrested, under-aged plural wives, “the homeless street preacher who called himself Immanuel became obsessed with making Elizabeth Smart a plural wife.”

    Read the rest of article:

    It appears like Jeffs lawyers, Mitchell’s lawyers will do everything to delay trial, again stating they were going to appeal to appeals court in Denver, CO. An appeals court that refused less than a week ago to stop trial.

  171. For those of you who might be interested, here is a link to a text book on the long and short term effects of childhood sexual and physical abuse :

  172. Did anyone see the story of a 10 year old girl who gave birth in Spain? She’s from Romania and is Roma and apparently her mother just can’t understand what all the fuss is about because they “allow” their children to marry young. Of course the father was only 13 at the time of birth, so maybe that’s slightly better. Frankly, I’m just baffled that any parent could consider a 9 year old mature enough for sexual activity. 9 years old… the mind boggles.

  173. Rebeckah,
    Can you post the link ?

  174. I am just glad that the Roma girl survived delivery… many girls that young do not…

  175. The trial of felonious polygamist Brian David Mitchell with opening statements from prosecution, the testimony is graphic and shocking, SLTrib has reporter in courtroom giving blow by blow account of testimony, this will certainly expose the horrid underbelly of polygamy & fundamentalist subculture. Note this is adult content.

  176. Breaking News As always in Utah court polygamists seem to avoid trial, the appeals court stayed the trial, which means no trial until appeals court reviews defense appeals on change of venue. If a change of venue is approved case will be delayed up six months or more while new court location is selected.

  177. Here’s a more complete transcript of court proccedings before being halted by appeals court:

    Some material is adult content, it horrid at times. To think that the FLDS is full of people like Mitchell is scary. In ways Warren Jeffs is more scary because his victims number in the hundreds.

  178. I am always amazed to hear these people call themselves Christians, yet they believe that heaven, salvation, “a planet” or eternal glory can somehow be earned through polygamous marriage. This is a concept which is totally alien to New Testament dogma which they profess belief in…


    I don’t think they believe in the New Testament at all. If they did, then they would have to deal with Jesus himself declaring that there is no marriage in heaven.

  179. Did anyone see the story of a 10 year old girl who gave birth in Spain? She’s from Romania and is Roma and apparently her mother just can’t understand what all the fuss is about because they “allow” their children to marry young. Of course the father was only 13 at the time of birth, so maybe that’s slightly better. Frankly, I’m just baffled that any parent could consider a 9 year old mature enough for sexual activity. 9 years old… the mind boggles.


    I read that. The Roma don’t bother sending their girls to school, apparently they are used just for breeding.

  180. No, they also train their girls to make money in a variety of ways, many of them illegal. You REALLY don’t want to get me started on this topic. I’ve got a phobia about it.

  181. Mouse,
    They do accept the New Testament as part of their canon of Scriptures. It seems to me that they disregard the teachings of the New Testament however.

  182. They seem real real strange about that.

  183. I posted a link for transcript of Mitchell polygamist trial, the link I posted takes people to last page of transcript, here’s link for first page:

  184. Does anyone know what this is about?


    Case No. 100500454

    Honorable Westfall







    You are hereby summoned and required to file an answer in writing to a Complaint that has been filed with the clerk of the above-entitled court at 40 North 100 East, Cedar City, UT 844720, and to serve upon, or mail to Timothy W. Blackburn or William A. Street, Plaintiff’s attorneys, at 372 24th Street, Suite 400 Ogden, Utah 84401, a copy of said answer within thirty (30) days after the date of publication. This Complaint is for money damages and the sum of money is $47,206.81
    If you fail so to do, judgment by default will be taken againstyou for the relief demanded in said Complaint.

    DATED this 25th day of October, 2010

    By /s/William A. Street
    Timothy W. Blackburn
    William A. Street
    Attorneys for Plaintiff

    published October 28, 2010
    The Spectrum

  185. I think we’ve known a while now that polygamy’s being protected, that’s NOT to help those trying to escape.

  186. Sorry I didn’t get back to you S. but it looks like you found the story. I was away from my computer all day today. Next time I’ll include the link in any post I make right from the start. 🙂

  187. Re: Sterling Harker; I do not know what this particular civil suit is about. Sterling is a former flds member. He was ousted by Warren Jeffs for allegedly stating that underage marriages should not take place. His former wife was assigned to another man and was at the YFZ with Sterling’s children when the rescue took place. Sterling is part of the Harker family associated with the harker dairy farm in Beryl, UT. I think that is the farm that Bruce Wisans took over for the UEP. It is/wasa also the location of the sacred flds cows

  188. Want more Utah polygamy weirdness? Check out the video from today’s Safety Net Committee meeting held in Salt Lake City and see how they spent the 2nd hour discussing the decriminalization of polygamy.

    This is how taxpayers’ money is being spent in Utah. Not helping the victims, but helping the perpetrators. Amazing. It’s like the place is an entirely different planet.

    Utah… polygamy elevated!

  189. Rebeckah,
    I didn’t find the link you described … could you place the link ? Thanks –

  190. Speaking about wasting taxpayers’ money –
    Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff meets with Justice Department on BCS

    Here we go again. Forget crimes in Utah, there is college football to worry about.

  191. WALLY BUGDEN the bow tie lawyer defending Warren Jeffs spoke out in SLTrib. Quote from Trib article:

    “It tells you that the 10Th Circuit thinks there’s real merit to the issue the defense has raised,” said Salt Lake City defense attorney Walter Bugden.”

    Now one might wonder what the federal courts have to do with ole Warren the felonious profit, well they don’t appears ole Wally likes all polygamous profits, he speaking on behalf of Brain David Mitchell. Greg Skordas who represented Elizabeth Smart as well as some anti FLDS folks countered with” The fact that a jury was seated likely will negate the defense’s argument that a panel of fair and impartial jurors couldn’t’ be found in Utah, said lawyer Greg Skordas.”

    With Wally Bugden’s statement we see how the FLDS and Warren Jeffs see trial of Mitchell.

    Read article:

  192. Thanks A Texan: Utah seems to be a strange place. I am sure that wally thinks only of the profit he can get from the “prophet” warren jeffs.

  193. Clearly Utah plans that polygamy/bigamy be decriminalized before US steps in for their state’s failures this past century or so in their crimes against women and children, as well as failure to prosecute civil rights abuses.

    Utah lied to gain statehood and doesn’t want to be held accountable: actions have consequences.

  194. I find it hard to believe that Utah would ever be held accountable for that; too much water under that bridge.

  195. Brian Mitchell trial resumes Monday 8:30 AM Utardia time

  196. Here’s a copy of court ruling allowing trial of polygamist Mitchell to proceed.,0,1841002.story

    Thanks stamp for update, good news.

  197. Does this mean that Mitchell won’t be able to appeal again to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals claiming he didn’t get a fair trial in Utah if he is found guilty? Or is it just for this time that he appealed and it was denied and he could appeal again in the future, after the trial?

    And, will the prosecutor get to re-do his opening statement? Or will they just start on Monday with the defense’s opening statement?

    Ron, we have questions and need answers. Are you out there, Ron?

    Stamp, that Utardia time is really funny!

  198. “They do accept the New Testament as part of their canon of Scriptures. It seems to me that they disregard the teachings of the New Testament however.”

    Believe it or not, they don’t use the King James Version like the LDS. They actually use the Joseph Smith Inspired version of the Bible that is made available through the Community of Christ (RLDS). Perhaps someone could post a link. I know I’ve found it online before.

  199. An article about Jim Oler’s Case.

  200. Brutus –
    Here is the link to the RLDS “Inspired” version of the Bible :

  201. It caught my attention that this web site is called “”.

    In Carolyn Jessop’s book, she says that Warren spoke of creating a “Center Place of Zion”. I guess it came from this quote in the “about” page on this web site.

    Our Purpose is designed to be a vehicle of communication for the independent branches of fundamental RLDS, not just in the Center Place, but across the world. It is our desire to bear a positive testimony of Jesus Christ and to strengthen the faith of the saints as they see the many exciting endeavors that are taking place in Christ’s church. It is out of a love for the risen Lord and his people that we provide this ministry.

    Restoration Internet Committee (RIC)

    “And Enoch beheld the Son of Man ascend up unto the Father; and he called unto the Lord, saying, Wilt thou not come again upon the earth?… And the Lord said unto Enoch, As I live, even so will I come in the last days, in the days of wickedness and vengeance… And righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine own elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare; an holy city, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion; a New Jerusalem… And there shall be mine abode, and it shall be Zion,… and for the space of a thousand years shall the earth rest”
    Genesis 7:66-72

  202. maybe some ex FLDS anons could explain the significance of the “center place”

  203. Whoa, this might rock some Priesthood boats. So, Joe had “REVISED” the Bible, but Brigham Young didnt know about it, or perhaps didnt care enough about it enough to ask Emma for it?

    Perhaps he knew what her answer would be. I am laughing, thinking of what she might have said to him.

    Its rather hilarious – the leader of a Patriarchal Church would have needed to ask a woman for the text of their actual BIBLE – AFTER she said “No, you are F’d up dude!”

    LOL Brigham had to skip out without it. Oh, the irony!

    Regardless. This to me is earthshaking, in the realm of those who consider themselves religious in the Mormon world. How do you explain this away?

    From the link



    Joseph Smith, Jr., worked diligently to present a more correct version of the Bible.

    He began this revision in 1830 and completed the initial revision by July 2, 1833.

    The original manuscripts indicate additional editing by Joseph Smith after that date.

    It was his intention to have the printing done, as evidenced from statements he made as late as 1841 (Doctrine and Covenants 107:28) concerning the urgency of this project. However, it was not published during his lifetime.

    Among the valuable manuscripts he left in the possession of his widow, Emma, was this work on the Bible which he described as the “New Translation.”

    These manuscripts were preserved, and after Joseph Smith III became president of the Reorganized Church, Emma delivered them to a committee appointed by the General Conference of 1866 to procure the manuscripts.

    This committee consisted of William Marks, Israel L. Rogers, and William W. Blair. During 1866-1867 the committee of publication (Joseph Smith III, Israel L. Rogers and Ebenezer Robinson) had a printer’s manuscript made.

    This was carefully compared with the originals and edited by the committee. From this printer’s manuscript the first edition of “The Holy Scriptures” was printed in December 1867.

  204. “and a commandment I give unto thee [Sidney Rigdon], that thou shalt write for him [Joseph Smith]; and the Scriptures shall be given even as they are in mine own bosom, to the salvation of mine own elect. — Section 34:5, December1830.”


    salvation of mine own elect

    salvation of mine own elect

    salvation of mine own elect

    ……………Anyone see the problem here?

    They’ve been “owned” alright… Perhaps this was the first use of the term? LMAO

  205. I wonder why mainstream LDS people use the King James version if this “inspired” text is available ?

  206. S

    You know, this is the first I’d heard of it, and it seems like its another one of those secrets no one wants to talk about.

    You can bet the bulk of LDS dont know of it – assuredly they never talk of it outside their own circles if they do know of it.

    They skipped the state without being able to come into possession. Brigham would have had to ask Emma for it, indeed he may have. She did not relinquish it and indeed it was quite a few years before it was even published.

    There is an entire new level of drama here.

  207. I’ll just come right out and say it, the LDS dont even use the right Bible.

    Joe’s widow Emma disapproved of polygamy and she told Brigham to go ahead and trot off to parts unknown, she and Joe’s revised Bible were staying.

    And thats the way it went down.

  208. A few facts:
    1. The mainstream LDS do not have the copyright of the “Inspired Version” of the Bible and therefore cannot publish it.
    2.In large, the LDS members are aware of the situation regarding the “inspired Version”.
    3. The LDS published version of the Bible is the King James version, however the changes made by Joseph Smoth show up in the footnotes and in the appendices.

    A link to the LDS scriptures:

  209. thanks Chemist !

  210. Thanks Chemist! Its too bad there is a “copyright” on a religious text though, I dont understand it.

    That reminds me of something.

    As you may know, the “Peace Symbol” is making a fad resurgence.

    Not a lot of people understand its origins or meaning, some thinking it meant “broken cross” and other anti religious meanings.

    It actually was invented with the human signal sign “semaphore” combining N and D, for Nuclear Disarmament, and it gives the symbol that looks like a Mercedes logo.

    Firt used in 1958

    “Although specifically designed for the anti-nuclear movement it has quite deliberately never been copyrighted. No one has to pay or to seek permission before they use it. A symbol of freedom, it is free for all.”

  211. FLDS are only allowed to use pre-1978 version of the Book of Mormon due to the LDS stance on blacks holding priesthood.

    Priesthood Record, May 11, 2004
    “I explained to them that before the Lord would let us go to [Jackson County, Missouri] we must learn how to be temple builders on this land. . . . Our work at R17 was a training to prove worthy to draw from heavens how to build temples and receive ordinances to bring us into the presence of God, and they need to realize that what they are doing on these construction projects and meeting the time schedule through the power of oneness exerted is earning us the greater privilege and blessing to be temple builders and temple workers, and if necessary the Lord would prune this group of men and allow those who qualify to participate in the building of temple.”

    YFZ Temple was a test.

  212. So… What is the FLDS concensus? Do they think they passed the test?

    To the casual observer, you can see they built a building, but on closer inspection one sees that their practices caused it to be “desecrated” and therefore rendered useless, and rather quickly at that.

    So its there, but not there. Its soul is gone, just as their freedom is gone… They are either locked behind a gate or behind bars.

    Test, FAILED

  213. “and if necessary the Lord would prune this group of men”


    That’s Warren and the FLDS for you – always on the lookout for ways to get rid of potentially troublesome males so there would be more females available for the elite old white guys.

  214. The lord is pruning them now, on his timetable not Warren’s.

    Funny how that worked out.

  215. very interesting… I don’t know if you are aware, but the Catholic and the Protestant versions of the Bible are different as well… not just in translation, but in the texts which are recognized … the Catholic Bible has more apocryphal books in it – example – Book of Tobit.

  216. LOL

    That like the Book of Hobbit?

  217. no – and the other apocryphal books the Catholic Bible contains are the Book of Judith and the Books of Maccabees.

  218. Yep, until I think it was the 60s some time, catholics were forbidden to have the king james.

    So this FLDS temple, it was supposed to have that sacrificial virgin bed too, ya spose?

  219. The Vulgate Bible is the term often used to refer to the Bible used by the Roman Catholic Church. It does include apochryphal books that are not included in the KJ or other versions of the Bible.

  220. To use the words “apocryphal” for these books of the Bible is to insult them and say that they are spurious or undocumentable. That is far from the truth. They are books that were included in the Bible at the time of Jesus, by Jewish Scholars. Jesus would have known the story of Judith well. About 100 years AD, the books that were not written in Hebrew were dropped by Jewish scholars, which would be Tobit, Judith and the Maccabees. Martin Luther removed these from the Protestant bible as well. So those books were used by all Christians for about 1500 years. One reason that I like them is that it helps explain references to them in historical reading; art, literature, philosophy.

  221. The Vulgate Bible was translated at about 400 AD into Latin, mostly by St. Jerome. Most bibles up until about the middle of the last century, that were used by the Catholic church, were translated from the Latin Vulgate into the local language. This introduced another layer of error into the translation and perpetuated a formal and outdated mode of speech. Pope Pius the 12th, I think around the time of WWII, started a world wide effort to update the translation of the Bible from original language sources.

    From my experience, most American Catholics use the New American Bible, which has been in existence since the 1970s and is not based on the Vulgate translations as were the Douay-Rheims, the Bible of English speaking Catholics since the Reformation. This is not based on the Latin Vulgate bible, but was translated by a team of scholars over a period of 25 years from the original languages directly into English. It is much clearer, more correct translation, takes advantage of learning that was available by the 1970’s about the origins of the Bible and it is much more readable modern English. I have my father’s copy of it and it is my favorite version of the Bible.

  222. I am not aware of any prohibition from owning a different version of the Bible for Catholics. I was just a child in the 60’s, so I am not sure about time before that. I do remember having to stand up and make “the pledge” not to read forbidden books or see forbidden movies; a pledge, btw, which was impossible since you would not be able to graduate from High School without sinning by reading something forbidden. Catcher in the Rye, for instance. But all of that was done away with after Vatican II (1962).

    Most Catholics are probably going to buy the New American Bible, as I said above because it is recommended to them and it’s probably for sale in their church bible study or in Catholic gift shops. But I doubt if a modern Catholic would consider it a sin to own other versions of the Bible, because they could be used as a point of comparison. Now, when I want to compare versions, I just go to the internet; there are several nice concordances available.

  223. Betty: Thanks for the clarification on the Bible that contemporary Catholics use. My information was way outdated.

  224. To use the words “apocryphal” for these books of the Bible is to insult them and say that they are spurious or undocumentable.

    To clarify : I don’t use the term apocryphal here to be insulting. I am using standard terminology used to refer to these particular books of the Old Testament.

  225. This just in from Canada, via the Vancouver Sun, regarding the reference case on polygamy – apparently one of the witnesses for Stop Polygamy in Canada has been threatened, so her affidavit is being withdrawn –

    VANCOUVER — Fundamentalist Mormons have already won the right to testify anonymously and behind screens in the British Columbia court case that will determine whether Canada’s anti-polygamy laws violate the constitutional guarantee of religious freedom.

    On Friday, they asked for much more.

    The lawyer for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints asked the B.C. Supreme Court’s chief justice not to allow an affidavit by RCMP Sgt. Terry Jacklin — who led the two-year investigation into the community of Bountiful, B.C.

    Lawyer Robert Wickett also asked Chief Justice Robert Bauman to limit cross-examination of Bountiful Bishop James Oler and Bountiful elementary-secondary school principal Merrill Palmer to only the substance of their affidavits.

    In Oler’s case, the lawyer wants questions limited to only FLDS beliefs and practices, while Palmer’s cross-examination would be limited to the history and operation of the government-funded school.

    Even though both Oler and Palmer waived their rights to anonymity, Wickett says they should not have to answer questions of a personal nature, such as how many wives they have or how old they were when they married.

    Both men are known to be polygamists, although Palmer has never been charged. Oler was charged in 2009 with one count of polygamy, and two female names were listed on his indictment. The charge was eventually stayed.

    Craig Jones, the lawyer for the B.C. attorney general, strongly opposed the FLDS request.

    To counter some of the statements in Oler’s and Palmer’s affidavits, as well as some in an affidavit by expert witness Angela Campbell — whose conclusions are based on interviews with unidentified women in Bountiful — the B.C. attorney-general’s ministry wants to file an affidavit from Jacklin.

    Quoting from the RCMP officer’s affidavit, Jones noted a string of marriages involving teenage girls.

    He claims that in 1982, a 25-year-old bishop married a 15-year-old girl. In 1991, a 35-year-old bishop married a 16-year-old, who had a child that same year. Two years later, a bishop married a 15-year-old.

    And in 1994 and 1997, a bishop’s brides were 17. Finally, in 1999, a 42-year-old bishop had two brides, both aged 15.

    “Yet this doesn’t trigger any concern among FLDS officials, or Oler, or the principal of the school,” Jones said. “We say that these are episodes of criminal behaviour.

    “Can you imagine anywhere else in the rational universe where a 15-year-old is pregnant by a 50-year-old, and the bishop and the school principal don’t report it? At the very least, it is a gross abdication of an educator’s responsibility.”

    In their affidavits, Oler contends that any criminal activity in Bountiful is quickly reported to police, while Palmer says the education of children is paramount.

    Jones rejected a suggestion from Wickett that Jacklin’s affidavit is hearsay, noting that everything in it is backed by official documents, including birth certificates signed by the fathers, all of which he would be happy to file as evidence in court.

    The B.C. judge has reserved his decision.

    If the chief justice rules in favour of the FLDS motion, Jones said Oler and Palmer will never have to answer why they never reported sexual exploitation of minors. Nor will they have to answer if they are successful in having the polygamy law struck down in court.

    “We are not playing games,” Jones said. “The safety of children is on the line here.”

    There is a lot at stake and it’s not only the safety of children.

    Brian Samuels, the lawyer for Stop Polygamy in Canada, gave notice Friday that before the trial begins, he will be filing an application to withdraw one witness and her affidavit.

    The reason? The unnamed witness has been receiving threats because of her involvement in the case.

    Witnesses from the B.C. community of Bountiful, a polygamist sect near Creston, will be allowed to remain anonymous during testimony at an upcoming constitutionality trial.

    Witnesses from the B.C. community of Bountiful, a polygamist sect near Creston, will be allowed to remain anonymous during testimony at an upcoming constitutionality trial.

  226. With all the requested limitations on questioning these guys the lawyers wont get past the “whats your name” stage. I hope the heart of the matter isnt going to be shrouded in court rulings.

    Stamp…if you havent yet, read abt Berg. Its really sickening. I’ve been outta satellite contact so I just saw your reply from last week. Ltr.

  227. Just going on the definition of the word apocryphal. Well, obviously, the list that I have for apocryphal books does not include those four, but rather other books that were never canonical.

  228. I love that “anywhere else in the rational universe”!

  229. Since they were granted anonymity, the police report for the Canadian reference case could easily be presented in a redacted format, or the officer could present his report at the trial without using names of any individuals involved. So why is there a problem with presenting the police report ? This seems to be a request to sanitize past criminal activity, and it is unacceptable.

  230. Unacceptable, certainly. What are they using for brains up there? Couldn’t they just have “done” lunch together while all wearing brown paper sacks on their heads?

  231. They want the hearing on legalization to have only happy, religious people who are so, so happy in their home, which is not a compound, but a ranch, which is their happy, happy home, which they chose of their own free will because they are so religious and it makes them all so happy.

  232. Hi MC, glad to hear from you, hope the Spring weather in Peru is nice!

    Whether they try that or not I dont know, however I am surprised they havent tried “The Devil Warren Jeffs made me do it” defense!

  233. it is NOT going to go over well if their request to prevent police reports from being entered into evidence is granted in the reference case.

  234. MC1199, what are you doing in Peru ?

  235. thought that some of you might be interested in this website :

  236. S…Im on a 30 day cruise. My fall vacation. We start back north on Sun. I try and keep up with the comments here whenever I have a strong enuf signal. In port its great-at sea its dead. And, for the Kindle users, typing on this tiny keyboard makes yur fingers numb!
    Stamp-its 63* and overcast.
    We have lots of Canadians onboard. I keep trying to find one who is familiar with the goings on there. Id like to hear their take on it. I think its pretty crazy if the police are going to have to testify using redacted reports…if I read the prev comments correctly.

  237. So what do the Canadians think of the Bozos of Bountiful?

    BTW have you had a chance to try some Chilean Sea Bass? Its the best!

  238. MC1199,
    They don’t want redacted reports …. they want no police reports at all.

  239. WOW a 30-day cruise. I am jealous. I would just gain 15 pounds and forget how to cook.

  240. I was on a cruise not quite that long as a kid, courtesy of US taxpayers. That’s how they moved families in the 40s. No Nancy Pelosi here.

  241. Toad, what kind of cruise was that ?

  242. No sea bass yet…and walking like a fool to keep from leaving with “CARGO” stamped on my backside!
    I’ve yet to find a Canadian who knows what I am talking about. However, some of the folks onboard are just 1 step from the grave. I feel VERY young (at 59 3/4) when I am on this ship. I hope to find someone.

  243. anon, just what I said. A troop ship with family accomodation staterooms on an upper deck, moving us, mom & 4 kids, across the Pacific to live on an island a few years after WWII.

  244. mc1199 or anyone, hadn’t some of those polygamists been there or around at least half of last century or longer?

  245. Alsoanon – I believe that is why they did not file charges. The age of consent was lower at the time of the discoveries.

  246. MC1199, enjoy your cruise.

  247. Granny Toad, were you one of the kids or the mom?

  248. Heh. In the 1940s I was one of the kids.

  249. Another ruling against the flds interests:

    Superior Court Commissioner Derek Carlisle denied a request by the city of Colorado City to return computer hard drives and cameras sized when Mohave County law enforcement officers raided the fire stations April 6 in Colorado City and in Hildale, Utah, as well as the homes of Colorado City Fire Chief Jake Barlow and Colorado City Manager David Darger.

    The investigation is looking into the alleged misuse of the fire department’s credit cards for personal use in connection with the fire departments and the city government.

  250. I was an art major, Granny, but that was my deduction, also.

  251. I ain’t 90something, heh!

    Anyway. I’m happy enough that superior court didn’t return any of the evidence against those crooks.

  252. Some girls at YFZ breeding ranch at the time of the rescue were from up there.

    Weren’t a few very young sisters in the Jessop’s house also non-related to anyone on the ranch during the rescue, their mother came in from out of state? We all figured that likely Barbie & the Bishop had them there to pimp out to old married guys.

  253. and of course, there is the marvelous Bountiful School, where only 8 students graduate per year. The drop out rate is > 40%. So much for the FLDS intelligentsia of Bountiful.

  254. Can she bake a cherry pie Billy boy Billy boy
    Can she bake a cherry pie charming Billy old boy

  255. Jurors should be back in to listen to defense sillybusiness, maybe “character witnesses” in the courtroom at Angelo, prior to deciding on punishment phase. Waiting to hear, well read, from Matthew Waller.

  256. who is Matthew Waller ?

  257. reporter, out in west Texas. He tends to report, and to get facts straight, without the bias, IMO.

  258. Mitchell trial live updates, warning contains graphic language, situations:

  259. This is terrible!
    WASHINGTON (AP) — More than five dozen child prostitutes have been found in the last three days as part of a nationwide crackdown on the sexual exploitation of children, the FBI said Monday.
    FBI spokesman Jason Pack said 69 children were removed from prostitution and 99 suspected pimps were arrested in 40 cities across 30 states and the District of Columbia. Authorities arrested 785 other adults on a variety state and local charges, Pack said

  260. On the back of our tour tickets, here in Peru, its printed…Sexual exploitation of a child is against the law and you will go to jail! I asked one of our guides about it and she said its becoming a real prob here where they lure the kids from the parents with a promise of work and then either sll them or turn them out on the internet. So they print it on touist passes to let you know you cant do that here. They dont wanna become another Thailand sex destination.

  261. Huh. So is that why Joran vdSloot went there.

  262. Dutson’s silly lawyer, in the punishment phase, has brought up that the guilty guy wasn’t aware of the laws he broke, knowing that’s no excuse. He didn’t mention that Keith never went to the courthouse to get any marriage license, in which case he’d have found out.

  263. He didnt go to the courthouse, because he knew what they would say.

    He knew ahead of time what the law was. Its why they keep those little girls locked up behind the tall fences and gated security entrance.

  264. From today’s San Angelo Standard-Times article on the Keith Dutson trial:

    Texas Ranger Captain Brooks Long testified that he had taken a copy of the Texas penal code to the ranch in 2004 and highlighted sections on bigamy and sexual assault of a child.

    Under questioning by Brandon Hudson, one of Dutson’s attorneys, Long said that he did not give the Texas Family Code with its description of a legal marriage to the FLDS members and that Rangers did not return with the penal code when laws changed in 2005.

    Wasn’t it actually Sheriff Doran who took the new 2005 laws out to the YFZ ranch?

  265. That’s what I’ve read, yes. Doran.

  266. Here’s more on trial of polygamist Mitchell in SLC, from Trib:

    Interesting to compare the marriage ceremony, and religious language used and like themes found in the dictations of Warren Jeffs, and IMO this of thing was carried out by Warren and his cronies at the YFZ temple bed with many victims.

  267. What I cannot figure out is why Mitchell wasn’t tried long ago… why the incredibly long delay.

  268. Why so long to come to trial, because it was in the Utah court system over competency issues. Feds stepped in and brought case to trial.

  269. If one want’s to know what it’s like to be a 14 year old plural wife, read the following article:

    From article: “The rape had left Elizabeth bleeding and feeling desolate. No matter what, she said, she didn’t want to spend another day as a “plural wife” to the 48-year-old homeless street preacher and his wife, Wanda Eileen Barzee.”

  270. I had to take a break from reading the SL Tribune’s transcript-like account of today’s Brian Mitchel trial.

    This particular line of testimony almost made me vomit.

    Viti: Ms. Smart, during the time you were tethered, did Wanda have any discussions with you?

    Smart: Yes.

    Viti: What were some of the discussions you recall Wanda having with you?

    Smart: We talked about her past life. Where they had been, what they had done. She talked about her previous marriage, his previous marriage, their families. They talked about how they got to be where they were at in that time.

    Viti: Did she talk to you about what you were expected to do?

    Smart: Yes.

    Viti: Can you describe that?

    Smart: Yes. She said that I was a chosen daughter of God and that I’d been saved from the world and that I need to be the wife of the defendant and be there for him whenever he wanted me and do for him whatever he wanted me to do.

    I have to agree with A Texan that this sounds like so much of the gibberish that Warren’s clan spouts out.

    You (14-year-old little girl) are a chosen daughter of Zion and MUST act as this disgusting older man’s wife and do WHATEVER HE WANTS YOU TO DO.

    Excuse me while I go wash the barf off of my chin.

  271. Its just amazing. But I bet Vile Bile puts in a good word for Brian.

    Being that he supports these kinds of guys and their actions.

    Yaknow, Brian didnt like the “system” either. Funny, he was sane enough to gain custody of his children from his first wife, and then his second wife wanted to get rid of them so he adopted them out.

    Think of all the money the state made off Brian by selling his children to the highest bidders and now keeping Daddy in prison for what looks like the rest of his life, however long that may be.

  272. “Malingering, as defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition (DSM-IV), is the intentional production of false or exaggerated physical or psychological symptoms motivated by external incentives.

    It is an intentional and conscious action where the payoff could be money or getting out of responsibility; not to be confused with someone who is suffering real symptoms as a result of an unconscious need to resolve some conflict in the mind.”


  273. Final arguments in Dutson trial today, seems the sentencing phase of trial has taken longer than the trial itself.

  274. It seems to me that if you want a sentence that includes probation you would put the defendant on the stand and have them state that they have learned their lesson and that they would respect the laws of the land and the rulings of the court….

  275. I was thinking about Brian Mitchell and the LeBaron guy in prison and the male ex-flds posters that have cropped up here and there. And I got to wondering about the interplay between extreme mental illness (beyond depression) and groups that relish “relevation”…. Which is chicken and which is egg?

    So are those following “fundamentalist” mormonism a group of individuals genetically afflicted due to the small original group?

    Or does the environment and belief in contemporary prophecy and the coming of the “one mighty and strong” trigger latent pre-disposition?

    Or is it all just a coincidence?

  276. WRT to BM I think he is crazy as a loon but that he knew the legality and consequences of the actions he is charged with so that it shouldn’t help him that he is crazy as a loon.

  277. HHG think about the jewhaters in the middle east, example Ahmadinejad. They are taught garbage from birth. They are what their brains believe. They have that in common with all of us.

  278. When you are feeling looney tunes, its best to just follow the law.

    Otherwise you will be spending your days watching cartoons with prisoners with strange tattoos. Not your Mr Roger neighbors.

    Maybe it was their evil crazy plot to get free meals for the rest of their life. heh, it worked.

  279. HHG: I think the flds and many other fundamentalists believe they have the higher law and are simply following it. If their higher law conflicts with societal law they stay true to their faith and take the consequences, albeit, kicking and screaming about it.

  280. from the sentencing phase of the Dutson trial: what proclamation did the FLDS send the president in 2009? i remember the letter sent to Bush, but would like to see what the proclamation letter said. anyone have a link? TIA

  281. I think it is unusual that MY posts for example see last eve at 8:13 automatically go into moderation. Can, or will, anyone explain? Are you asking, provoking, me to leave this site should I not care for the harassment?

  282. The word j*e*w*h*a*t*e*r in the post you referenced triggered automatic moderation and the post was later manually released. Neither your login nor your IP address have been targeted for moderation.

  283. Juliekan

    Not sure if it was ever released by the Secret Service.

    Pretty stupid manuever from a bunch of ametuer child molesters, though!

    Oh wait they are pros at it!

  284. Jurors are deliberating Dutson now the San Angelo papers says:

    Hope he gets more than probation, the longer the jury takes the more likely a reduced sentence or probation IMO.

  285. The trial of Mitchell continues with Elizabeth Smart on stand, seems questions are aimed at undermining Mitchell’s insanity defense. also incident with failure of SLC LE at library to identify victim.

    Questioning also prove Mitchell continued the abuse in California and planned to take more plural wives aka victims. This dude is just like Warren Jeffs IMO!


    Dutson gets six years – no word yet on probation.

  287. Thanks stamp, hope he doesn’t probation either, he needs the experience of the real world of prison. Now if the Utah courts will just allow Warren Jeffs to be sent back here to Texas. That hearing should be next week sometime.

  288. Yep, 6 years on PRISON; not probation.

    Dutson receives six-year sentence

    SAN ANGELO, Texas — Keith Dutson Jr., a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, was sentenced to six years in prison and fined $10,000 for the sexual assault of a child.

  289. That sounds right to me given the age difference. I could have gone higher because of his serving as an escort to the prophet while the prophet is on the run…

    If they really thought he could have been rehabilitated they should have put him on the stand to testify that he now understands that this is a crime and that if instructed by the prophet to participate in a crime his allegiance would be to civil society.

  290. I could also have gone higher based on the “she is drawing away from him” statement

  291. Oh, I think Warren is going to win the Grand Prize.

    All these other sentences and fines just rolled out the red carpet for him.

    For some reason he isnt Yearnin to be Returnin.

  292. The court also denied free transcripts ($40k) for the appeal of Abrahm Harker Jeffs. He wanted them because of indigency but plead ignorance and/or the 5th on questions about his trucking firm White Horse Transit.

  293. WOW So they found “Lying for the Lord” doesnt work as well in a court of law whilst under oath?


    White horse indeed!

  294. A Texan, Do you think the horror of Mitchell’s treatment of Elizabeth S. and it being explained as “following his religion” affect these FLDS trials? He isnt as snmooth and is obviously a disturbed person but he also uses mind control and intimidation.

  295. I would think the mormon fundie polygamists in Utah will want to lay low while the Mitchell trial is going on.

  296. When is that stupid Willie Jessop going to realize that “celestial” marriages aren’t LEGAL marriages.

    Keith Dutson never legally married that 15-year-old girl; he just shacked up with her and had children.

    Hey Willie, there was nothing “lawful” about that!

    “Keith believed he was a part of a lawful wedding,” FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop said of the union between Dutson when he was 20 and the victim when she was 15.

  297. Ignorance of the law or just plain ignorance is such a common theme for this group. That excuse doesnt seen to be working but they keep dragging it out for their defense. They just dont get it… or just refuse to understand. Its as if they stand in a group, hands over ears chanting la la la la la la!

  298. I wonder if Willie coached Abram into continuously pleading the Fifth Amendment yesterday?

    Willie is such a pro at it.

  299. Cost him 40 grand for being an obtuse assholio on the stand.

    Good work Aberham Jeffers!

  300. “People don’t care until they realize it’s their religion next”. Well, yeah. If your religion involves arranged “marriage” to under aged girls.

  301. If my Church leader was caught with a child, I would hope he be put behind bars ASAP and with no delay.

    But that wont happen because he wouldnt think of doing that.

  302. Stazmp: I fully agree with you. If my church leader, work supervisor, etal were to do such a thing I would fully support an investigation and prosecution if warranted. A society that fails to protect it’s children and youth is a failed society.

  303. I am reading the testimony from yesterday in the Brian Mitchell trial. I am amazed how these self-proclaimed wannabe profits tend to spout the same garbage to their “followers”.

    Mitchell was going to kidnap another young girl to become plural wife #3. When he gets to the girls’ house, he encounters a man who is asleep and snoring. When he returns to his camp, he tells Elizabeth Smart that he didn’t bring the girl back with him because “their faith needed to be stonger.”

    What a load of crap!!! Mitchell chickened out of kidnapping the girl and he blames it on Wanda and Elizabeth’s faith not being strong enough. Just like Warren and his failed “revelations” of the end of the world and the liftup was because the faithful followers weren’t prepared. What conceit these guys have!

    Viti: What did he tell you what happened when he returned to the camp?

    Elizabeth: He said that we were not prepared enough to receive another wife and that we, um, that our faith needed to be stronger. He said that he had gone to the Kemps’ house and I think he found a sliding door, but I don’t remember what it was. He started to go in and he heard someone snoring on the other side. It was deep snores, snores coming from a man, a masculine person, and he said that was the only way he could find in. I can’t remember exactly, but I think he said when he tried to open the door more or the window, the person inside moved so that scared him so he didn’t go through with his plans.

  304. From today testimony in trial of polygamist Mitchell, a powerful condemnation of doctrine of prophet arranging marriages and not giving young women choice. Although aimed at Mitchell’s beliefs, it condemns the FLDS as well IMO.

    Smart: Well nine months of living with him and seeing him proclaim that he was God’s servant and he had been called to do God’s work and everything that he did to me and to my family is something I know God would never tell someone to do. God would never tell someone to kidnap a young girl from her family’s home in the middle of the night from her bed that she shared with her sister, from her sister’s side and give her no free agency and continue to rape her and sexually abuse her and give her no free agency to choose what she did. I know that God loves each of his children and that we have our free agency and that’s why we are here. It is for us to choose what we do in our lives, and I never had that free agency in those nine months I was with him. I know he was not called of God because God would never do something like that.

    Warren Jeffs and his followers would do well to read the above.

  305. #

    A Texan, Do you think the horror of Mitchell’s treatment of Elizabeth S. and it being explained as “following his religion” affect these FLDS trials? He isnt as snmooth and is obviously a disturbed person but he also uses mind control and intimidation.

    an older anonymous said this on November 10, 2010 at 8:29 AM

    Not directly, IMO the FLDS would see it as persecution of those with similar beliefs as those of the FLDS.

  306. Elizabeth Smart is one tough cookie! Some adults go thru much less and come out shattered. So far, she seems to be coping tremendously well. God bless her. She is a brave young woman.

  307. She is awesome and is laying it down on that lying, faking Mitchell!

  308. It’s been brought to my attention that Mitchell’s antics are an outright and blatant insult to clinically mentally ill persons.

  309. A Texan: Thanks for the quote from Elizabeth Smart about free agency. The faith that she and I share is very big on fee agency. That is one reason I am so against the flds and most of the other mormon fundie polygamy groups. They thwart the free agency of their children and youth. They also do not allow them to develop their own talents and interests.

  310. Yes, very well stated. Anyone can twist God’s words to back their own will, rather than His. It’s what the devil does. Lie.

  311. Viti: What did he tell you to say?

    Smart: That she was my stepmother.

    Viti: How old did he tell you you were to tell others?

    Smart: I was 18.

    you are 18…sound familiar?

  312. Dr. Michael Welner of NYU School of Medicine, one of the most well respected forensic psychiatrists in the country, produced a 205 page report on Brian Mitchell, as well as an in depth study of the psychopathology seen in fundamentalist Mormon polygamist groups.
    Dr. Welner thinks that Mitchell is a sadist with personality disorder, and thinks he is neither psychotic or delusional

  313. Research of Dr. Michael Welner on the topic of the psychiatric features of leaders of Mormon polygamist groups.

  314. Saw the nurse on the “R” rated blog talking about “tolerence for religious sexual preferences”.

    Amazingly no one there caught on or objected – my guess is that they think it will happen.

    Yeah, allowing geezers and uncles to marry the lil childrens, because its their “sexual preference”.

    Ummmmm, I dont think so in this lifetime, or this century as that may be, if you happen to still be young.

  315. Is that blog still up?
    I thought it was shut down

  316. Here’s an from ABC News, which says Mitchell was was paranoid when he learned John Walsh was looking for him.

    From article: “Speaking in a controlled voice, her words tinged with anger, Smart called Brian David Mitchell selfish and a “hypocrite” who raped her at every chance he got even while proclaiming himself to be God’s servant.”

  317. It was shut down for a day or so and then came up sans naked baby pictures.


    Links above gives update on Mitchell trial, and shows that like ole Warren Jeffs, there are those who support Mitchell and see him as innocent. Jeffs has Bile & friends, and Mitchell has his. From article: “But Woodridge told Fox 13 that Mitchell insisted he was perfectly sane.

    “He doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with him. He believes he’s a prophet of God and he’s sent here to do God’s work,” she said.”

  319. Eldorado Success newspaper reports that the “Temple of Doom” at YFZ ranch has received tax exempt status. Wonder how they managed that?

  320. Others have mentioned this, wonder what this dude and his looney lawyers were thinking, in the end it appears they got Judge Walther mad, not smart IMO to PO the judge! From news report:

    “Jeffs continued to say that he did not know answers about his business before jail, or he took the Fifth Amendment until the attorneys were finished, and Walther denied him the transcript.”

  321. Can we get some cabana boys down at this end of the beach please?

  322. The FLDS cabana boys are going to the Huntsville mens club.

  323. And they’ll all be wearing white.

  324. But the white clothes won’t be their fancy “wedding” suits; they’ll be jumpsuits.

  325. Brian Mitchell gets to wear a fancy tan outfit with the word “Pirsonre” or something like that spelled on it.

  326. Here’s an article with many links on Mitchell trial from around the USA.

    The links posted above on Dr. Welner are also excellent reading. His testimony should be fascinating, wish Ron in Houston still posted here, would be good to here his opinion on this case and the FLDS trials here in Texas.

    IMO Dr. Welner will blast defense lawyers case, he’s likely to do a good job of tying this case to fundie polig culture, showing that Mitchell actions are not unlike those of Warren Jeffs & Willie the Thug.

  327. S posted links on Dr. Welner which are excellent, here’s more:

    Dr. Welner has not and will not comment on Mitchell’s anticipated defense, other than to say that he has presented his findings to federal prosecutors. If the case proceeds to trial instead of a plea, Dr. Welner will be updating his findings with more information not yet revealed in competency proceedings.

    IMO could put a lot of heat on the other polygamists groups when Welner testifies as new information is revealed

  328. link to documents related to the prosecution of Joseph Smith for fraud by the State of NY :!/notes/mormon-missions-midwest-outreach/state-of-new-york-v-joseph-smith/10150301704350012

  329. S thanks for the link and A Texan thanks for referring to S’s link – I had missed that…
    very interesting…

    I really really hope that Jeffs get off to Texas soon – the evidence presented there will probably be as shocking as in the Elizabeth Smart trial –

    I do wish that he was being prosecuted federally rather than by the state, although Texas seems to be doing a exceptionally competent job…(unlike Utah)

  330. Warren’s Utah hearing to head to Texas is Monday at 2:30.

    The end is near to face the music for “marrying” little girls.

  331. What do you suppose Warrens lawyers have up their sleeves this time around? I’ll believe he’s going to Texas when he’s in a Texas courtroom.

  332. I think that his attorneys will simply delay his trip to Texas – but he will eventually reach the destination we all want him to go to…

  333. His lawyers will do anything to get him outta jail for an hour so he can go back underground forever. Like some sort of Mormon Bin Laden.

  334. CB I bet you’re right.

    Don’t want that to happen.

  335. CB


    Funny on so many levels. I say, let him loose and lets chase him again, maybe next time we will bust him riding a pink rickshaw in Thailand!

  336. Canadian Bacon, you are so right !

  337. If Warren got let out he would have a massive shoe dusting party, he would be so busy his feet would fly off!

  338. Speaking of that felonious profit Warren Jeffs, here’s a news report:

    IMO, it will not matter what the Utah court rules since Texas can go to federal court in Austin, TX and get him extradited, it’s a matter of the US Constitution and federal law.

  339. And Warren Jeffs is not the only felonious profit in the court today, Ole Mitchell is on trial today with court in session. As usual Mitchell calmly walks into courtroom, as soon as he enters, he sings, as soon as he leaves he stops. Which shows he is in control of his actions. IMO this dude is not even as loony as Warren Jeffs who has sores on his knees from praying and has had to be force feed at times. IMO Jeffs is more the lunatic than Mitchell. Surprised Jeffs lawyers haven’t pulled this stunt of insanity since it has worked so well more Mitchell

    Read the trial transcripts for Mitchell’s trial:

    Mitchell is one scary dude if you read the transcripts!

  340. Ohhh a twofer. Warren and Brian both go to court today.

    Brian is faking crazy, but they have a video of him in court in San Diego showing him quite lucid.


    Thanks for playing, Brian.

    Warren? We’ll see if he gets on the chain gang in Texas.

    Perhaps he has a crazy stunt up his sleeve tho – to delay the inevitable. We’ll see…

  341. Texas wins, judge in Utah rules ole Warren to Texas.

    Bet Warrens already on his way here.

  342. one can hope

  343. Hurray!

  344. Nah, he is appealing this one too, but at some point he will get the cattle prod.

    Guess he isnt yearning to be returning to Zion no more. Guess he likes hanging out with Brian Mitchell?

    They have so much in common. I bet Brain sings him songs and Warren dusts his prison slippers on Brian.

  345. Has Warren left for Texas yet ?

  346. Wendell, Willie and another man were there along with a few others. They all stood up when Warren entered and bowed their heads. Warren nodded at them.

    Burgen had an appeal prepared and handed it to the Judge immediately after the hearing. Judge asked the prosecutor to respond, and he said it didn’t change anything. The Judge denied the appeal and Burgen said he’d be appealing to the Supreme Court.


    A link to the document Burgen filed with the Utah Court of Appeals.

    Prosecution was given until Wednesday, November 17 to respond.

    Additionally, Judge Walther signed a “No Bond” Order on June 22, 2010 at the request of the State of Texas so he’ll be in a Texas prison, not at the YFZ.

  348. IMO it maybe necessary for Texas to bring suit against Utah for failure to obey US Constitution and federal laws as relates to extradition.

    Here’s more info from Utah TV station:

    Checkout photos link, pictures of of Jeffs, Wally bow tie and others, also video.

    As Anon above pointed out Judge Walther signed a no bond order, a good thing IMO!

  349. So Warren cannot be extradited until the Supreme Court renders its decision on the matter. Another useless stalling tactic.

  350. Utah State SC, yes?

  351. Yeah cuz when he loses at the Court of Appeals, Wally will already have the Notice of Appeal to the USC in his briefcase and he’ll pull it out.

    Warren just ought to man up enough to come back to the location of his “Zion”. I”m betting about now he wishes he’d never heard of Texas or Eldorado.

  352. Yes Toad, the Utah Supreme Court. and if that doesn’t work, they will continue to move up the chain for appeals – cha – ching !!!

  353. Wally Bugden (yeah the drunk in the street Yoga lotus flower Wally) doesnt want his gravy train to end.

    So far, Warren has been giving money out UNSTOPPABLE like that train in the Denzel Washington movie that just came out!

  354. Im guessing God isnt helping Warren out, so now he is going the Gentile route. And his posse follows along.

  355. Warren’s a big ol’ wooosy boy! He’s afraid to come to Texas where they aren’t to deal with the mess HE created. It’s all a game and the lawyers are getting richer every day.

  356. Update: Stay granted on Warren Jeffs extradition

    Within hours of a judge’s decision that polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs must be extradited to Texas to face sexual assault and bigamy charges, the Utah Court of Appeals agreed to consider the case and keep Jeffs in Utah at least two more days.

  357. here’s an update on polygamist Mitchell’s trial, defense lawyer moved for mistrial, judge said no way.,0,6179284,full.story

    As to Warren’s lawyers IMO they are filing appeals they know they can’t win, so as others have posted here, it must be for the billable hours$$

  358. Please continue on Open Discussion #42, and see the ruling on the UEP! – ADMIN

  359. Hi would you mind stating which blog platform you’re working with? I’m planning to start
    my own blog soon but I’m having a difficult time selecting between BlogEngine/Wordpress/B2evolution and Drupal. The reason I ask is because your layout seems different then most blogs and I’m looking for something completely unique.
    P.S My apologies for getting off-topic but
    I had to ask!

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