FLDS Petitions Denied by Utah Supreme Court

Just got word that all of the FLDS petitions from earlier this year that were being considered by the Utah Supreme Court have been denied — except one issue related to the distribution of Trust property — which was found not to be ripe yet for consideration since Trust property has not been distributed.

Indeed, while the FLDS Association disagrees with the district court’s application of the law, the court’s motive appears to be protection of the beneficiaries’ charitable interests, not defiance of FLDS Association members’ rights under the Trust.

In sum, many individuals have relied upon the district court’s final order from over three years ago, and the FLDS Association has given no adequate explanation for its delay in appealing or otherwise petitioning for relief. The FLDS Association has shown a lack of diligence in challenging the modification of the Trust, and this lack of diligence has operated to the detriment of others. The FLDS Association offersno adequate explanation for its delay and no other circumstancesexist that might make us otherwise hesitant to apply laches.Accordingly, we dismiss the FLDS Association’s Trust modification claims pursuant to the doctrine of laches.

The FLDS Association does not allege that either the district court or special fiduciary has actually used religion as a factor in determining how to parse out property. It does not cite any instance where an active FLDS member received a lesser delegation of property because of his or her religious beliefs. So , the FLDS Association does not assert an ” actual ” clash of legal rights . And given the district court ‘s and the special fiduciary’s assertions both in district court hearings and at oral argument in this case that a religious test would not be imposed–a position the FLDS Association acknowledges the special fiduciary has taken–such a clash does not seem “imminent,” but rather merely “hypothetical.” At most, the discussions the FLDS Association cites evince a concern shared by the district court and the special fiduciary that, without careful planning, Trust distributions could lead to the creation of a new trust containing many of the same attributes that have, on more than one .occasion , landed the UEP Trust in Utah courts. But this does not mean that the district court “actually” has or “imminently” will use religion to discriminate against FLDS members, so this last claim is not ripe for our review.


~ by FLDS TEXAS on August 27, 2010.

197 Responses to “FLDS Petitions Denied by Utah Supreme Court”

  1. Woo hoo, now if we can just get warren to Texas.

  2. Excellent news!

  3. Actually this opinion is big. In fact, likely huge.

    It’s too much to explain here, but you can read why on my blog.

  4. Thanks Ron

  5. Thanks Ron.

  6. Excellent post, Ron – you are very prolific these past few days.
    Glad to see it.

  7. Yes, Ron… where your writings are concerned, better a plethora than a paucity. Thanks!

  8. This is great news. The court did not buy the excuse that the flds waited for ecclesiastical reasons. They basically followed warren’s answer them nothing strategy and it blew up in their face.

  9. if the flds want to get their knickers in a knot, it needs to be at warren for setting these things into motion with his edict of “answer them nothing”. man is that coming back to bite him in the butt in a large way.

  10. PT

    Blame Warren? And lose everything in your life? Yeah, like that’s going to happen 🙂

  11. you are right ron, it’s a catch 22, if they blame warren they believe they are damned to eternal damnination. but this entire mess can be laid on the shoulders of warren steed jeffs who’s battle cry was “answer them nothing”.

    funny thing is that i think willie knows this and he’s just going along for the moment, but when push comes to shove, willie’s gonna look out for willie and to hell with the rest.

  12. I wonder if the FLDS will eventually throw Warren under the bus ?

  13. I don’t think they will throw Warren under the bus. Some of them, at least, believe that Warren is in jail to pay for THEIR sins.

  14. flds desperately need prayer to come out of their idolatry. Regarding the pretty commonly known and still pretty widely accepted doctrine of Christ’s death on Calvary for humankind’sin, they are as needy spiritually as any unreached people group in the world today. They are born and raised right here among us with a very different worldview than their own nation’s ideas about laws, human rights, common decency, etc. They are inculcated from birth about polygamy and prophet worship. They are taught Jesus was a polygamist, which is one of the big reasons their beliefs and behaviors become what they do. Recently, a few flds households in Colo City actually allowed prayer in Jesus’ name with some summer missions work from at least one church which has been trying to “build bridges” with C City area for a few years. To me, that is a miracle. God is at work. The Bible says He does not want people to perish without knowing the truth. This is very serious, and no effort should be spared to keep trying to show flds what the Bible actually says, without any mormon filters whatsoever. flds belief system strongly contradicts Old and New Testament concepts of God and reality in critical ways. That is a big reason they are in conflict with American law much of the time. Their mormon beliefs have led them into much rebellion against American laws, and that situation can be traced all the way back to numerous statements made by early mormon leaders and writings. Almost from the start, mormonism encouraged the cheating of non-mormons when possible, defiance of various laws according to the leaders’ “revelations,” deception of each other and of non-mormons, long hours of physical work, doubting and twisting of the Bible, and polygamy. flds ideas are not based on brand new ideas, except for anything warren himself might have invented over the last few years as he became more extreme. flds beliefs are based squarely on ideas from Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and many other early mormon leaders who defied American law and exhorted their followers to fall in line with that kind of thinking and behavior.

  15. Apropos the post above, here is Doris Hanson’s account of her exit from the Kingston polygamy group :


  16. i am happy for the families in CC and hope they will continue to learn about God, but you are right that they need to cease their worship of the prophet.

    our church is doing a Bible in 90 days study and in Leviticus it specifically talks about marrying sisters, mothers, other mothers, etc.

  17. I found this post by Brooke rather interesting, still letting it sink in. While I disagree with her spin on the tax issue, ( in which she rips others reports for incorrect math, but offers none of her own) I find this was more balanced and givr her two points.


    ““There is absolutely nothing we’ve ever told them that has soaked in,” he said. “I don’t know what it takes for these people. . . their own lawyers can say, ‘Are you stupid?’”

    That comment was made with this text, taken from a 2002 speech given by FLDS member Sam Barlow, displayed on the screen:

    One of the attorneys said to me, “If you don’t make some concession on whether or not you will continue to marry young ladies to old men, then you’ll be caught in the same net and trap and under the same pressure that John Taylor was in in his time.”

    I said, “I’m aware of that but we are born to this conflict and we will have to endure equal pressure to what the saints were under then if we are going to annul the convenant with death and hell that was entered into.””



  18. OBTW

    Ron, excellent posts! Yes thank you! You have stayed pretty balanced.

    While there are different arguements going on on different blogs, I see that our florida frend thinks the LDS were under pressure to end polygamy in time for the Olympics.

    That is one of the most hilarious tin foil hat comments I’ve seen is a long long time. Utah didnt even get started on doing anything of that nature.

    The only true thing he said is that the FLDS didnt want Olympics in Utah – but who the hell cares and who asked them? They have no say in those matters, though they think they do. Guess we found out how much clout they had.

    IRT a claim of a Federal swing at bat, oh, I guess they will keep the lawyers busy but not seeing any fruit grow on that tree. In the meantime law bills stack up.

  19. Just look at it for what it is, they are padding lawyers retirement accounts. Rod Parker doesn’t want to give up his gravy train.

  20. Warren Jeffs tricked them out of any chance whatever of being heard by telling them to keep their yaps shut, ‘answer the nothing’. The dummies bought it. Again. Hook line & sinker. He’s got them too dumb to so much as take on the deed to their homes but still keep shoveling over the cash to his cause.

  21. So, the flds have lost the UEP for good. So bad, too sad for them. The sacred cows are gone. The sacred silos are MIA, the sacred berry knoll will probably be sold next. The flds better start working with wisans or he will sell more sacred property, maybe even the sacred temple bed LOL.

  22. ale wife

    You nailed it. They’ve lost the UEP fight. Cue the fat lady – the opera is over.

  23. I’m waiting for the money trail of missing funds to lead to the YFZ and then the temple bed, temple and all the log cabins will belong to the UEP.

  24. OOOPS

    ZXC just said that the FLDS might pull up roots and move to Texas. Guess that would be a problem for them if Wisan finds that YFZ was really built with UEP startup funds. Like that $4 million UEP Apple Valley sale Willie helped Warren with.

    Where did THAT money go?

    I mean, it was FOUR MILLLION DOLLARS.

  25. How many millions did they spend on a few sections of west Texas scrub? That was awfully high dollar.

  26. The most expensive thing out there is the Temple – which they no longer use.

    Seems the price to ride on the Gardners bed is higher than they thought.

  27. Stamp,
    Why don’t they use the temple anymore ?

  28. It’s been contaminated by the presence of gentiles and apostates and they have no mechanism for making it ‘pure’ again. That, and everyone is going to figure out what Warren was really using it for.

  29. ZXC just said that the FLDS might pull up roots and move to Texas.

    Where did he/she/it say that ?

  30. Rather disturbing – but not the first time they talk about violence and crime.


    “Yes Bill.leave the ex-flds and Wisan a ghost town. Sell everything or move everything that can be moved to Texas. Burn everything that can’t be carried and let Carolyn and Wisan sell Desert lots to tourists.

    3. ZXC on August 28th, 2010 at 9:20 pm”


  31. sounds like he is just venting… (unless he is someone of some consequence in the sect, in which case there would be reason for concern.)

  32. O that’s the scorched earth threat

  33. Apparently those in Short Creek still haven’t figured out that you have to be asked to move to Zion, it’s not a place you just decide to move into. Even if some of those in the Crick have family there, it still doesn’t mean they will be allowed to move in and contaminate the place.

  34. Go read this Texas filing on the Eldorado Success web site. On page 8 it gives a detailed hour-by-hour account of how Wendell Nielsen’s children spend their day. The children spend a lot of time working in the garden, listening to sermons, singing hymns, setting tables and helping to prepare meals, beautifying the yard, praying, canning vegetables, inside house chores and ONE HOUR OF SCHOOL.

    In his letter to Warren, Wendell says he daily “bids the children good night, reviewing their day with a little keep sweet training.”

    His letter to Warren also says “we are laboring intensely”.

    So intensely, that there is only ONE HOUR OF SCHOOL in the daily routine for his children!

    I wonder if the Texas School Board would do anything about this if they knew these children were working like slaves and only receiving ONE HOUR OF SCHOOL per day.


  35. Wow! Gotta stamp out that socializing. It might lead to terrible things, like independant thought…

  36. yes, he tells that lots of them are working on leaving socializing behind.

  37. …or form attachments to each other instead of the prophet.

  38. what’s even more interesting anon @2:07 is the fact that not all of his family are at the ranch. Some are there with only part of their children and some children are there without their mother.

  39. That P is me, it cut me off from entering my Name.

  40. Two thoughts on further reflection.
    1) Expanding on your comment, ProudTexan, it actually sounded like quite a few of the children weren’t his either. How many children were at the ranch with no biological parents?
    2) If they were doing a lot of canning then it’s a good bet this schedule was a summer schedule, in which case an hour of school is actually quite beneficial. The question is then whether or not the children were actually attending school in the winter.
    3) No play time. I find that deeply sad.

  41. I guess I should have said “A few thoughts…” I can count. Really. 😀

  42. Anon 2:07 pm : You folks in Texas, Utah, and Arizona need to start lobbying now for standardized testing for all, including home schooled children.
    Failure to perform in a manner consistent with grade level should be grounds for being removed from home school and placed in mainstream schools immediately. That would end this nonsense quickly.

  43. Actually, around here, you can can something or other from around April through December, but garden work and canning do sound like summer activities to me.

    What I found disturbing was the analysis of the behavior of children who are only 3, and their spiritual development at that age!

  44. There’s a lot to be said for kitchen chemistry IF AND ONLY IF anyone is teaching chemistry.

  45. You can learn your kitchen’s altitude above mean sea level with a good candy thermometer and boiling point of fresh water.

  46. i guess since there didn’t seem to be any infants that wendell is through procreating.

  47. Yes dear I know that is physics.

  48. betty, the only months we don’t do much outside stuff are january and february. other than that we are outside. gardens generally get planted by march 1, so his letter could be talking about any time, but if you’ll not the date on this particular letter, it is right before the triple underage marriage. wendell had to find a replacement for leann who was married off to leroy, a move which now has leroy looking at 75 years in the state pen.

  49. Yes, PT, it’s not that different here in Virginia. I’d say early planting is March 15 and you can get hearty greens and dig up root veggies all the way until Thanksgiving. Most everything else dies off at first hard frost which is usually the week before Halloween, approximately.

  50. man, that heavenly hush stuff creeps me out. and “severe corrections” for 3-year olds? what does that entail? I’m so glad I didn’t come from a big corporate family like that. holy cow.

  51. Yeah. It’s creepy to me, also.

  52. I imagine it creeps us all out. No surprise.

  53. i probably would have flunked the “heavenly hush” stuff and as for the “severe corrections” for 3 year olds. wendell needs to meet my child. he’ll show him severe correction.

  54. i’ve been told that wendell is a very smart man, but he sure must not have much common sense if he’s being controlled by a cult.

    i wonder if all the flds fathers had to write letters like that to warren or if it was only the chosen in “zion”

  55. I get the idea from inference of the dictations and the bishop’s list, that Wendell was taking on “project”, accepting people into his family to “fix” them to WSJ’s liking.

  56. that’s for sure. he got a lot of uncle fred’s “wives” some of whom were refugees from husbands previous to uf. he also go a bunch of leroy jeffs’ wives, like sally and maggie.

  57. It’s almost like he’s running a convent, only there are babies.

  58. did you notice wendell didn’t talk about any teenage boys. i know there are some in his “family”. wonder where he’s got them out working.

  59. Wendells brown nosing of Warren is both disgusting and disturbing.

  60. I don’t know, I may be just fantasizing based on my own life experiences, but I can really see a man who is trying to do good, to be the responsible one and having his best characteristics used by his leader against him. That’s what I see; Wendell trying to do the right thing and please the religious father figure but somewhere along the line he loses his objectivity and is obedient when he should be pushing back. Sad, really, but a very common scenario in cults.

  61. From my POV the behavior to address Warren this way is much akin to the Nazi death camp commanders.

    Only he does this crap to his own family and they are the victims.

    IMO Wendell and a whole bunch of them have no spine.

  62. Oh, but there are a fair amount of them that DO HAVE A SPINE

    Like Flora, Carolyn, Pligkid, and a rather long list.

    Its sad to see such a large flock of sheeple follow the lead lemming though.

  63. PT said: did you notice wendell didn’t talk about any teenage boys. i know there are some in his “family”. wonder where he’s got them out working

    I still wanna know what the US Census found out at yfz, if anything. I can’t see anyone there voluntarily complying. Non compliance seems to be a hereditary gene, passed on for generations.

  64. Census results are private for 72 years or so, but I’ll ask around and see if anyone went out there to get the numbers.

  65. Thanks, PT.I was always curious how they’d list themselves. Head of household…with many wives and so many children. The census forms weren’t all that big, if memory serves. A few pages, at most. No where do I remember boxes for more than 1 wife and so many kids. Just curious!

  66. I’ve looked at LDS census including polygamists 1850-1930. Sometimes women have different homes, sometimes listed in a group under her own names with her children, any variation you can think of. Now this lying FLDS bunch, I can’t speak for. I’d expect they’d generally flat refuse or just list some johnn smith and jane doe and be done with it.

  67. What is chilling to me is wendell’s statement about some of the 12 and 13 year old girls taking an “adult role”.
    Is this code for:” Time to get them married”?

  68. Ah well adult role could that mean cooking, dishwashing, helping with laundry, or as we’ve learned to expect, sexual exploitation by old married men?

  69. The document by Wendel does indicate that it is a convent except for the children. To my mind there is nothing wrong with the adults deciding on a religious life… the issue, as always, is the children and allowing them to grow up with the skills to make real choices, which includes, if they want joining a religious community, and if they do not want, to be at an age appropriate educational level …

  70. WOW Yeah, he must be offering Warren his children so he can have FLDS brownie points!

  71. PS – not only education, but social skills necessary for survival in the external world

  72. Teaching the female children the social skills nedessary to survive in the external world is not done. They do not want them to even consider living anyplace but in the flds world, leave alone prepare them to live outside of the flds confines. Now the boys, different story. Need to reduce the surplus male population somehow, especially those from the lower caste families. It is absolutely disgusting to me.

  73. True enough, chemist, caste appears to play a big role in this cult

  74. Should have said maybe, disproportionate role, more accurate

  75. Hellohellogoodbye, I agree so much. The children deserve and should be legally protected in the right to receive an age appropriate education that allows them to make their own decisions as adults. It is child abuse to subject children to indoctrination that leaves them frightened, self destructive and unprepared for life outside of the cult. I think it is way past time America came up with an ammendment giving children certain, basic, inalienable rights.

  76. …and it is high time that every state had annual standardized examinations for all students, including homeschoolers, to make sure that all children are performing at or above age – appropriate grade level.
    Those homeschoolers who are not performing at grade level should
    be mandated for enrollment in mainstream schools where their educational development can be closely monitored.

  77. I love Ron’s response to a “lecture” (or shall I say rant?) on “commitment” he received from a so called “Christian” polygynist here :


  78. I agree, S, but I think that’s political suicide and isn’t going to get passed as law while the religious right is feeling it’s oats.

  79. I agree Betty, but it works up here.

  80. Good. Maybe someday that will happen in Virginia.

  81. Mike Watkiss has a new investigative story regarding another family that is being bullied by the FLDS leaders and police dept in Colorado City. Check it out here: http://www.azfamily.com/video/?sec=670049&id=101796953

  82. And there’s Willie the Thug in the thick of it.

  83. It seems to me that there are two agencies that need to “buck up” and get their a$$es in gear to deal with the town marshalls of the Creek (aka the FLDS gestapo.)

    1. The ever missing feds. Supposedly they’re investigating. Yeah, and Christmas is cominng too.

    2. Arizona attorney general Terry Goddard. Perhaps he’s too busy running for Governor (I was shocked he’s a Democrat!) but his office knows the best the problems that are going on. I know he’d doing some things, but he needs to really ramp up the enforcement.

  84. Well, Mike Watkiss is doing the right thing putting the spotlight on it. Public opinion will make Goddard act.

  85. Betty

    I agree. Is it only me or does it seem the authorities are dragging their feet big time?

  86. Is it only me or does it seem the authorities are dragging their feet big time?

    No, they are definitely dragging their feet, and I cannot figure out why.
    They must have friends in high places in government. That is the only possible explanation.

  87. I think they are dragging their feet because they are unsure what else they may uncover and how much effort/resources may be needed to put stop to all the abuses that continue to occur.

  88. All those dear souls living in something that reminds me of an astonishingly same-ish beehive. I really feel for the little ones. What about the ones with “less compliant” personalities? Oh LORD, what must happen to them? To be made to feel like nothing over and over again while being forced daily to fit such a tight, starched uniform, brain-helmet-mold every day. Such intense brainwashing. Oh LORD. Mercy is needed for these little ones. What are we going to do? These are humans, not colts, dogs, monkeys, or plants, or kittens forced into a small glass jar. They are human children being raised exactly like animal stock on a strange boot-camp army prison-for-life. Seems like only God Himself can stop this impersonal, stultifying, prison-like madness, where nothing matters but a madman’s whims, and an unyielding, unbending, uniform, boring, otherworldly, bland and unforgiving daily diet of nothingness but more prison and blandness and nothingness. Those little ones have rights! They are created as individuals in God’s sight. They need the real Jesus. Oh God, they need help. Lots of serious abuse would be necessary to enforce such living conditions with normal personalities. Maybe flds doesn’t see a lot of normal personalities born any more.

  89. gretchen, I think you mean well, but you need to take your bag of crumpets and go visit them personally. Do whatever it takes to see for yourself, like a true missionary. As well intentioned as you are you may even be amazed how well received you would be.

    Mostly the children are not suffering like like you think.

    Start on the fringes ans work your way in carefully. But for God’s sake (literally) and for your own sake don’t just believe all this bad propaganda.

  90. ahem, why are you blogging anonymously at 9:32 pm ?

  91. You have apparently NO idea the horror we normals view what is being done to destroy FLDS humanity

  92. Check this out:


  93. Someone posted Mike’s video before me, sorry about that, but everyone needs to see it.

    Wee Willie the local idiot is overseeing the grain dump, this after he and others lied to get the TRO which was taken back after the Judge was able to hear both sides of the story and not just the lies of the FLDS. The Supreme Court of Utah has now said so sad too bad, you should have done something in the beginning and not wait years and then try to undo everything.

    There’s a hearing on the bigamy laws in Texas on Sept 13 which probably won’t go very well for them. You’d think they would buy a clue and start making an effort to get along, but no, they don’t, they just keep on acting like bullies.

  94. “Anon” 9:32 pm : do you also believe that the video cited by Proud Texan above represents propaganda ? If so, why ?

  95. hey, is anon 9:32 nocturnal anon who just popped in early? if not, where is nocturnal anon?

  96. Looks like Nocturnal Anon dropped by early…

  97. I wonder if Nocturnal Anon has any Lyle Jeffs updates…

  98. How can anon 9:32 or anyone defend that flds deadbear dad, merril and the religious leader warren who told merril to shed assets to get out of paying child support. Ole merril defied court orders to pay child support for many years. Child support for his own children!! Yet he is held in high esteem by the flds. To me, he is a lousy deadbeat dad and scofflaw; probably typical of many of the flds leaders.

  99. Anono Blogo nine 32

    “Mostly the children are not suffering like like you think.”

    So, whats “Mostly?” What future do these “Children of the Zipper Cult” face? Raised in a cage like itty bitty veal?

    Well, Daddies and uncles will rot in prison, they will at least get one life lesson while being raised on the commune by a flock of females.

  100. I found this on bill’s blog and wanted to dispute it, but won’t do it there:

    I visited the brand new school that was shut down and boarded up because the State fired the Mormon teachers and confiscated all the students academic and medical records. There is no public or private school in the Twin Towns anymore, the FLDS children are home schooled and the others are bused out of town.

    The school is not shut down. The school is across the highway and there are lots of students who go there, exFLDS who live in the towns and also the Centennial Parkers. No FLDS go there. It is the choice of the FLDS not to utilize the school. No one is keeping them from attending.

    Birth Date: 12/08/81
    Address : 60 N PIONEER ST, Colorado City, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    23:06:58 08/30/10 Ray, Christophe WCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-6-206(2) CRIM TRESPASS-NON-DWE BM WCJ6 587.00 587.00
    76-8-305 INTERFERE WITH ARREST BM WCJ6 587.00 587.00

  102. The above Charles Truman Zitting is the son of James Kilgrow Zitting and nephew of the Mayor of the twin cities. Notice how he wasn’t arrested by an FLDS officer.

  103. I don’t care to leave any footprint in the feces on that blog either.

  104. Children of the Zipper Cult

    Sounds like a really bad B movie.

  105. This makes me want to puke:

    I wanted to finally meet in-person with a lady that terrifies the Arizona Law Enforcement crowd, my good friend Ruth Cooke. The way I figure it, any person not liked by LE MUST be someone I could instantly take a liking to.

    I for one am glad that Mudpuppy didn’t find Ruth, he was probably brought in to finish the job that the FLDS hadn’t been able to accomplish.

  106. Ron, didn’t you know that the real name of the YFZ is Yearning for Zippers.

  107. So, anyone want to take bets as to whether or not he’s really there? The boarded up school kind of reminds me of the no longer open donut shop.

  108. Anono Blogo nine 32

    “Mostly the children are not suffering like like you think.”

    So, whats “Mostly?” What future do these “Children of the Zipper Cult” face? Raised in a cage like itty bitty veal?

    The situation described in Wendell’s household does not sound abusive. It does sound highly regimented and disciplined, almost like life in a monastic order.

  109. I do not know why or who does it but near half what I post at deseret snooze is refused for some vague reason. “* Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words, containing URLs or using excessive capital letters will not be posted.” I can only guess offensive to some LDS? http://www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/700060679/Utah-top-court-says-FLDS-waited-too-long-to-object-to-land-sale.html

  110. I agree that it doesn’t sound overly abusive, but “severe correction” for a 3 year old, that’s kind of scary. Also, the older girls are being groomed to be mothers. Notice how LeAnn has children in her care. Low and behold, less than a month later she’s the bride of Leroy Jessop and pregnant with her own child.

  111. “The situation described in Wendell’s household does not sound abusive. It does sound highly regimented and disciplined, almost like life in a monastic order.”

    I didn’t see overt signs of abuse but I saw things that raised flags for me. The emphasis on perfect and absolute obedience. The references to “working hard” on rebellion or disobedience. The “training” not to socialize. The lack of play time. And the reference to “reevaluating” the (I think he was 6) boy who was being “worked with”. It really seemed like Wendell had expectations of children that weren’t age appropriate either.

    Of course, I’m not a professional. This is just the mother/grandmother in me.

  112. Wendell’s household sounded alot to me like the Catholic monastic group which educated my grandmother in Europe in the early 1900’s. Very regimented and disciplined, with an emphasis on prayer, garden work, obedience, contemplation, meditation, singing / chanting, silence, but – unfortunately – deficient in the area of academic curriculum.

  113. well ya know girls just get married have babies and keep house. Right?

  114. Unfortunately my grandmother’s education was deficient in areas not related to housewifery and child care, Toad – and it was a shame because she was very bright.

  115. Both my kids were always very expressive, and somewhat creative and artistic. They are in their twenties now. I guess it makes me cry inside thinking about people like them, or like myself, being forced to live in a situation like flds communes where everyone is taught they’ll catch hellfire for not complying with such an incredibly tiny, bland spectrum of behaviors and experiences.

  116. Well, the convent probably did not feature sexual abuse, though, and I know for a fact that you can’t get into a program to become a nun before you are of the age of consent.

    My aunt is a nun and she has a master’s degree and was principle of a school, so YMMV. She’s currently in her late 80’s.

  117. If my daughter had been raised flds she’d have had possibly ten kids by now (she is 23) and she’d be watching the dude go hook up with other women and girls while she was expected to make her feelings and world revolve around his personality, and I guess just tons of kids and menial tasks every day. She’d be told she’s sinning for having any totally normal feelings or any original thought warren got wind of. She’d be risking being separated from her children if she ever expressed anything not in accordance with some sick freak like him. Trust me when I say she’s a talented artist and has a wonderful sense of humor and personality, and is EXTREMELY interested in (and a customer of) fashion and beauty. She’s got a salaried position and her own little place. She adores her car, reads a lot, loves many types of music, and has a few good friends who just love her. She’s a bombshell, truth be told, lives in southern California, and still turns a lot of heads in spite of all the beauties and wealthy people out there. (Incidentally, few can believe she is my biological child, but let’s not get off the subject.) My son would have been cast out very long ago. He’s a computer gamer and musician, learned several languages on his own, and has other stuff he’s good at that is not within flds acceptable behaviors. They are normal and healthy pastimes, no sin in my book, and I know the Bible pretty well and am a very conservative person by many standards. Of course neither kid is perfect-Oh dear, they would have suffered intensely if someone like warren had had access to their lives and future..Frankly, with my personality, I don’t like to think about what I would have done if the things that happen to BOTH genders and all age groups in flds had happened to me and my kids. IF I counted freak Warren’s outlandish opinions and hypocrisies to be more important than my beloved two darlings’ lives, well, I can’t even imagine how that happens as it does in flds, except that the mother-child bond is also directly attacked by flds practices and beliefs regularly also. This philosophy, if you want to call it that, must have taken a good hold in many of those poor women’s minds. The “prophet” owns all people, all children, and all lives in flds beliefs.

  118. I wonder what this case is about. Ron can you enlighten us?

    G RAND BEACHAM September 01, 2010
    Courtroom 3A Wednesday
    09:30 AM

    WRIT OF EXECUTION/ASSISTANCE 090503306 Contracts

  119. Welfare fraud – who us?

    September 01, 2010
    Courtroom 3B Wednesday
    01:30 PM

    PLEA IN ABEYANCE REVIEW JOB 081500157 State Felony
    OTN: 19111996 DOB: 05/05/1967

  120. Less than a week.

    TERRY CHRISTIANSEN September 07, 2010
    WJ Courtroom 37 Tuesday
    01:00 PM INITIAL APPEARANCE ATG 101401820 State Felony
    OTN: 17436841 DOB: 12/03/1955

  121. Linda Cloteel Barlow is a full niece to deadbeat dad Merril. Her husband is the son of Louis Jessop Barlow, Jared Leroy Barlow.

  122. What has become of Philo, does anyone keep up with him?

    Also, above, UT wanting Warren in court on fugitive warrant? Huh? To stretch out time before meeting back up with Texas?

  123. That court date is the Fugitive Warrant for Texas that is being heard.

  124. My aunt is a nun and she has a master’s degree and was principle of a school, so YMMV. She’s currently in her late 80′s.

    True, YMMV – the Jesuits who educated both my father and my husband did an excellent job.

  125. Don ane Sally Cox have been XFLDS long before Warren came to the scene. Don was owner of Cabinetec. I used to work there, but quit before it went under. It has now gone under. This has anything to do with the FLDS.

  126. Ron

    “Children of the Zipper Cult”

    – Sounds like a really bad B movie.”

    It does donut? Stranger than fiction. Can you imagine the life those children lead? I guess Wendell told us – and it sounds pretty horrific to me.

  127. S

    When Wendell said the 12-13 year olds were ready for adult roles, I dont think he was talking about getting them drivers licenses, cars and credit cards.

  128. …When Wendell said the 12-13 year olds were ready for adult roles….

    I would never agree with that. 12 – 13 yr olds need to complete their education before they do anything else. Education should be the first priority.

  129. The Deseret News just cut 47% of their staff.


  130. S,
    Not to mention emotional and physical maturity.

  131. How dare those idiots equate being able to do dishes, sort laundry, or have monthly periods with adult ‘behavior’.

  132. After reading Wendells testimony, I wonder if the Sate of Utah does not have a mandatory curriculum on the books to let the children get away with just two hours of schooling a day.
    What if every family in Utah would keep their kids home, at will, would an ordinary family get away with that?
    Not in my State they would not.

  133. C-M :
    Apparently there are multiple systems issues in the educational systems of Utah and Arizona which have allowed this
    to occur. This would not be permitted in my state either.

  134. CM – Wendell and those kids are at the ranch when the letter was written.

  135. Mudpuppy is over on his blog giving Willie’s account of Wisan’s takeover. Unfortunately the truth and Willie’s account don’t seem to jive. The truth about the Bank in the Twin Cities is that it went under because the FLDS borrowed to the hilt when profit Rulon told them that the end of the world was coming in 2000. When that didn’t happen, they defaulted on their loans and it caused the Bank of Ephraim to fail. It was never shut down by Wisan.

    As for the zoo and playground, they aren’t shut down, anyone and everyone can utilize the facilities of the playground. Centennial Parkers use it as do FLDS and exFLDS. It’s available and there for all to enjoy. The FLDS tried to close off Maxwell Canyon and were told that they couldn’t do that because it was public property. It is now available for every to enjoy, but FLDS and exFLDS.

    If he actually went into the meeting house as he is claiming, the FLDS have broken their own rule of not letting outsiders in. So it goes to show you that they are making up the rules as they go.

    Jonathan Roundy, who is apparently the Head Marshall is married to 2 different women. How in the world is he allowed to be a police officer. He certainly isn’t upholding the laws of Utah and the United States.

  136. So this occurred at YFZ….Correction to my statement above : there are multiple systems issues in the educational systems of Utah, Arizona, and Texas which have allowed this to occur – and apparently there is little political will to remediate this situation.

  137. S

    It’s interesting – for all the insane meddling the Texas Legislature does with public schools, they don’t have the political will to tackle unlicensed private schools (aka home schooling.) The reason is the large number of fundamentalist Christians in the state. Anytime anything comes up that might regulate home schools their is a call to arms.

    Start secular humanist rant….

  138. Oops- should be “there” – when will I reread prior to “Submit Comment?”

  139. Anytime anything comes up that might regulate home schools their is a call to arms….

    In NY State, Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals agree with statewide testing and the statewide curriculum approved by the NYS Board of Regents. There is annual mandatory testing, and if the homeschoolers don’t perform up to par – they are enrolled in the mainstream school by mandate.

    No one objects here.

  140. S

    I’d imagine it’s partially a red state – blue state thing. Texans are very funny about the government.

  141. Efforts were made to work with the home schoolers in Utah a few years ago to establish minimum requirements, etc. It went nowhere fast. They don’t want any oversight what so ever. Too bad because that means that some children are deprived of a basic education.

  142. Too bad because that means that some children are deprived of a basic education.

    and when you deprive children of a basic education you adversely affect their ability to obtain gainful employment, as well as their ability to function independently.

  143. It is sad, but I don’t see the legislature dealing with the home school problem any time soon, although I’ve heard that there’s something in the works about people on federal having to work toward a GED if they don’t have a High School diploma.

  144. something in the works about people on federal having to work toward a GED if they don’t have a High School diploma.

    Federal what ? Federal assistance ? Which programs ?

  145. Food Stamps – I think. I just overheard 2 girls at the jail talking about how unfair it is to make them have to get a GED to keep getting food stamps. The other girl told her to just keep having kids and she’d get to stay on it regardless of the GED.

  146. puke

  147. The other girl told her to just keep having kids and she’d get to stay on it regardless of the GED.

    We have a solution for this in NY : Work-fare – not welfare.
    If you are able bodied, you must work for your welfare benefit.
    Only those who are truly disabled are not required to work.

  148. O yeah also that Bull Mudpucky is a lying POS for the record.

  149. Just from listening to them talk, I don’t think we have that in Texas.

  150. It appears that FincenMIB is selling some tape recordings of Warren Jeffs on ebay.

    See it here …


  151. and when you deprive children of a basic education you adversely affect their ability to obtain gainful employment, as well as their ability to function independently.

    S said this on September 1, 2010 at 10:16 AM

    Well, in the FLDS case that is probably exactly what they want. The boys will work construction or farming and the girls will pump out babies, cook, clean and wash laundry for the rest of their lives. Both sexes will be inclined to remain with the sect because they will be raised to conform to the group and not express independence.

  152. We have a solution for this in NY : Work-fare – not welfare.
    If you are able bodied, you must work for your welfare benefit.
    Only those who are truly disabled are not required to work.

    S said this on September 1, 2010 at 10:51 AM

    S, New York is probably pretty safe from the FLDS ever moving to that state. Lucky you. I think that work-fare is a great idea and can eliminate the freeloaders.

  153. You know, the often overlooked part of the UEP takeover is that if the court hadn’t stepped in, the UEP would be owned by Brent Jeffs and 6 or 7 lost boys. They are the ones who filed the suit that wasn’t answered.

    Regardless of what you think of the suit they filed, the FLDS allowed them to win because they took the path of “answer them nothing”.

  154. It appears that FincenMIB is selling some tape recordings of Warren Jeffs on ebay.

    See it here …


    Anonymous said this on September 1, 2010 at 1:49 PM

    Man in Black is always selling Warren’s tapes. He better be careful, Warren might want a percentage.

  155. PT another way to look at it is that Warren did that to them.

  156. http://www.mylifetime.com/movies/the-19th-wife

    September 13

  157. Polygamists will stand up for their beliefs — but only to a point

    By Daphne Bramham, Vancouver Sun September 2, 2010

    Brace yourself. It’s still months from trial, but the constitutional reference to determine whether Canada’s anti-polygamy law is valid is about to hit the first bump in the road.

    The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and its B.C. bishop, James Oler, want immunity from future criminal prosecution.

    Oh, not just immunity here; in the United States as well.

    They want to testify anonymously, using pseudonyms or hidden behind screens, and they don’t want to answer incriminating questions.

    The motion was filed Wednesday by their lawyer Robert Wickett and is scheduled to be heard Sept. 8 by B.C. Supreme Court Chief Justice Robert Bauman.

    Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/opinion/Polygamists+will+stand+their+beliefs+only+point/3472859/story.html#ixzz0yNKLkjP3

  158. I agree Granny, it is all on Warren’s shoulders.

  159. i read the article meme, and the author is totally correct, canada can give all the assurances it wants, but it certainly can’t bind the us to it’s promises.

    as for the 4 women who had children taken from them in texas, there are some canadian women who are married to warren jeffs. he married everyone of them underage and i believe they are all related in some shape or fashion to winston blackmore.

  160. I have wondered…

    Most civil rights movement involve individuals who group together to collective challenge laws they deem civil rights violations – they challenge them in a fashion to directly bring the law down on them for arrest, trial and imprisonment as a means to bringing the greater public’s attention to the law and its flaws. Once public opinion is rallied the law is changed. So those committed to the change of the law are willing to suffer the consequences of their beliefs.

    Why are polygamists so willing to claim the laws egregious and so unwilling to use the civil rights actions that lead to a change of the law

  161. and my answer is

    a. they know that that bringing the law down will not lead to the public outrage necessary to make polygamy illegal?

    b. they don’t want the law to change because it would make their specialness go away – they would simply be a bunch of folks shacking up?

    c. some other reason ????

  162. a & b. C is probably the hold they their priesthood, they call their males, use on their slaves and subjects. That’s definitely what Warren was tightening the screws on them with.

  163. Yup, I agree to HHG and Grannytoad. There are some polygynists, I’m sure, who are willing to go public; a few have, like the ones doing the reality show. But I think for isolated groups like the FLDS, the last thing they really want is the equal right to a legal marriage for polygynists. Then all their wives would have equal legal power in the marriage with the husband.

  164. I think part of it also is that to make polygamy legal, you would have to allow women to be married to more than 1 man. The FLDS don’t want that to happen.

  165. If it’s gonna get legalized…then what’s good fer the goose is good fer the gander….The women can start marrying the young [over 18!] guys [who usually get throw out] and start a new branch of Priestess-hood rights.

  166. …if it’s gonna get legalized…then what’s good fer the goose is good fer the gander….The women can start marrying the young [over 18!] guys [who usually get throw out] and start a new branch of Priestess-hood rights….
    as per MC 1199

    Absolutely. Remember Joseph Smith married women who were already married to other men, making these women polyandrists. Now why hasn’t that custom been resurrected ? Hmmmmm…

  167. It is true that Joseph Smith married women who were already married to other men – 11 of his wives were polyandrists. I say bring the polyandry back !
    See here :

  168. so today they pretend only men get extras?

  169. From some of the stories told, by people who have left the various sects, it doesn’t even seem that some men ‘appreciate’ all their extras. They often work away from home, for long periods of time, they are ‘obligated’ to have sex with the ‘wives’ who may be furtile and ready for breeding. The stories are numerous about father’s not even knowing the names of their own children. [Why should they learn? Kids are ‘women’s work!]
    Since it’s supposed to be ‘against god and/or the prophet’ to have sex just for the good old fashion fun of it…[sex for fun and love of your partner..what a concept!] I can’t see the ‘extras’ as all that much fun!
    Oh yeah, that’s right, the prophet throws in underaged virgins as ‘presents’ to keep them happy!

  170. Anon @ 10:51 pm : Thanks for pointing out that many of these fundamentalist groups are simply breeding programs which are
    not at all concerned about marital love and happiness – or in the happiness of families for that matter.

  171. Yes Toad, apparently there were early Mormon fundamentalist women who were deemed to be able to “exalt” several men simulataneously. I wonder how many fundamentalist women are aware of this ?

  172. Dialog from Mormon porn:

    “Oh, oh, thou doest exalt me to the highest heavens!!!”

  173. Yes, Ron, but that’s what they say when they think the husband has offered to get up with the baby. Oh, wait, that never happens. 😉

  174. Seems like to me they all get up at 5AM to pray. That’s what their schedules say.

  175. I doubt the FLDS would really want polygamy to be legalized. It would cut into their welfare benefits. They just like to gripe about it so they can yell, “religious persecution” to divert attention from their bad behaviors. A handy excuse…

  176. Guys

    I can’t tell you that I’ve declared war because I’m not that attached to what they say. However, the gloves are off in speaking out against the ignorance and sheer bigotry that are the pro-FLDS. It’s hard to describe but the best way to understand is to check out the posts at my blog at http://fldslegal.blogspot.com

  177. I love your latest posts Ron.

  178. Ron’s been very busy of late. Keep it up !

  179. Thank you, Ron.

  180. You hit the nail on the head, Ron !

  181. You can bet Adams won’t have any discussion of that at the SLTrib.

  182. If they will just follow up on it. Jonathan Roundy, the Chief Marshall has 2 wives, so he is breaking the laws he swore to uphold.

  183. Comment from Duane on my blog:

    Again, This doesn’t make Jim Bob Dutson with his 2 wives and family guilty of anything.

    Does this makes sense to anyone? If so let me know.

  184. No, it does not. Duane keeps harping on a theme that Warren is a bad guy and a sicko, but all the people who think he is a perfect prophet are innocents who are just “living a lifestyle”. That dog don’t hunt.

  185. And Duane fails to grasp that a man who has two wives is guilty of bigamy — which means he’s guilty of knowingly and willingly breaking the law. Whether Duane or Mr. Dutson think it’s a good law is beside the point.

  186. No Ron, it does not make sense. Leave it to Duane.

  187. Submitted for your holiday weekend viewing :

    Apropos Ron’s recent comments on Islamic polygyny and child brides, I found one of my favorite movies on You Tube : Osama.

    Osama is a art cinema/independent film on the fate of women and child brides under the Taliban in Afghanistan. You can view it on You Tube in 16 parts, on muktasim’s channel.
    Here is the link to Osama Part 1.

    You can find the links to Parts 2-16 to the right of the viewing box on You Tube.

    Enjoy. You won’t be disappointed.

  188. Well we also know his wife is tan because she is of Mexican heritage, has huge boobies & works out…. but she isn’t the least bit interested in polygamy. So I guess he is in no danger of acquiring a second wife.

  189. Yes pathgirl, I too was struck by the “deep intellectual & spiritual connection” (ha!) between deci & his wife which has developed during their 16 yr marriage after reading his rather reductionist statements regarding her physical attributes….

  190. Who is Jim Bob Dutson?

    Birth Date: 12/19/89
    Address : 527 E 2015 N, Fiddlers Canyon, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    12:39:23 09/05/10 Licalzi, Wesley WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  192. I found Osama visually beautiful and well done, but so depressing that I did not make it all the way through it.

  193. Jim Bob does not strike me as an FLDS name.

  194. Duane clarified – He used that as a Mr. Generic FLDS.

  195. Betty,
    Glad you enjoyed it – consider skipping to Parts 15 & 16 – these segments deal with Afghan child brides.

  196. I don’t know, S. I’m a real wimp. I think my imagination is bad enough without having graphic images seared into my brain.

  197. Like linda said it is correct

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