Open Discussion #36

Continued from Open Discussion #35

UPDATED: Terrill Dalton, Holy Ghost of the Church of the Firstborn of the General Assembly of Heaven has just been arrested for the triple threat of underage incest rape. His first Councilor Geody Harmon was arrested as well.  Dalton fancied himself as the “Holy Ghost in the Flesh” and “Jesus’ Father” in an apparent attempt to out-god rival polygamists.

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on August 16, 2010.

417 Responses to “Open Discussion #36”

  1. “Fifteen men allegedly looking to have sex with underage girls were arrested in an undercover sting in Florida over the weekend, law enforcement authorities said.

    The suspects were arrested between Thursday and Sunday and charged with traveling to meet a minor for sex or related crimes, during an extensive undercover operation conducted by the Polk County Sheriff’s Office, along with state and federal officials.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/16/arrested-undercover-child-sex-sting-florida/?test=latestnews

  2. Wow, anon. You mean there are arrests for under aged sex that aren’t religious persecution? I’m shocked.

  3. I’ll bet Mudpuppy was shocked, and right in his own backyard.

  4. blogogre, when discussing the use of child labor on FLDS construction projects, you said several times that things have changed. I read this near the bottom on the previous Open Discussion thread.

    How recently have things changed?

    I have met over a dozen boys and girls from the FLDS who are now ages 16-22. The majority of them can’t read and are functionally illiterate. They can only order food in a restaurant by pointing to a picture of the dish they want to eat because they can’t read the word “hamburger” and know what that word means.

    Some of these boys have told me that they were pulled out of school in the 2nd grade to go to work full time – from sun up to sun down – in construction.

    Some teenage girls have also told me that they were also taken out of school to go to work to prepare the meals for the work crews.

    This has been in the past 2-3 years. Many of these boys are still underage boys – they are not grown men who experienced this many years ago. Neither are the teenage girls. These children had been doing this kind of work for a long time before I met them and were still doing it until the time they recently left the FLDS.

    So, my question to you is “When did things specifically change?” How recent was this “change” implemented within the FLDS that they don’t use underage boys in their construction jobs and make underage girls leave school to go off to work on the job sites to cook for these labor crews?

  5. Blogogr wouldnt have a clue, he is repenting from far far far away.

    But he used to be a member so he knows which way their compass is pointing every hour on the hour.

  6. Wonder if Bill will do a little write up on his neighbors.

    Seeing how he “cares” about kids so much and all.

    Ten Bucks says he will call it a set up, and they are all innocent.

    Well they were set up, but they emailed and I-M’ed their intentions.

    OOOPS

  7. blogogre, I went back to the last thread to copy one of your comments exactly.

    Here is what you said:
    And here again … teaching children to work should not be a crime. Exploiting them yes, but times have changed… a lot. I worked as a kid and felt great about it (usually). But then I didn’t have someone like you to complain for me… But back then we still had some freedoms to balance it out all this not being protected from ourself. *sigh*

    Blogogre said this on August 16, 2010 at 11:35 AM

    The ex-FLDS youth I mentioned above, whom I have personally met, have told me that they were too afraid to complain for themselves about their harsh working conditions and their being deprived of an education. These children didn’t have someone to complain for them, but maybe they would have benefited if they had.

    Sadly, today they are approaching young adulthood and can’t read or write.

    So again I ask you, how have “times have changed… a lot” for the FLDS children?

  8. Gosh that is grim anon. I never cease to be amazed at how bad things got there. I never would have believed it before now. I cannot even remember NOT being able to read, honestly. I Can’t. My memory just doesn’t go back that far. It’s hard for me to imagine how it would be to be so illiterate. I”m stressed when I see a word I don’t know the meaning… I have to go look it up. I’m not saying that you are wrong but that is defiantly a “change”.

    We should be able to read “hamburger” or “hot dog” by the about the 3rd grade. NO? So something besides FLDS indoctrination is the problem here. Don’t you think? Personally I think it’s a crock .. but hey.. what do I know? Don’t you find it singular; strange that when they, the lost boys (and girls), finally get into the “real world” of education they suddenly jump three grades? lol I’m just askin’

  9. Yeah, they jump three grades back!

    Dont you remember, Blogo, when Warren made kids quit school and start homeschooling?

    Evidently some of those homeschools werent so stellar. Esp when the kids are handling lumber instead ov books.

  10. anonymous at 7:45 PM

    Bill might write about this; after all he IS all about protecting children… is he not?

    Or does he only rant about children in CPS custody and not about the perverts, such as the ones in the article above, who cause the child abuse against so many of the children who end up in CPS custody?

  11. *definitely a change. (spell checker typo)

    Not complaining is not a fault. Just to be clear on that.

    But I think your characterization of “FLDS children” is inaccurate. 10 to 1 I bet they would be able to read “hamburger” and resent your implication to the contrary. But hey .. that one should get some help. we agree on that.

  12. Yeah but they were stellar, and they did not end up in CPS custody. You are simply sucking up on the (inaccurate) negatives press, not the facts.

  13. That is cute though. Have you ever handled a board? I have. And got straight A’s too. lmao. But alas.. I was the old school way back when.

  14. Bill will probably rant about how the cops trapped those innocent men. Cops are always incompetent goons, remember? The evidence is made up and inflated. Those men just wanted to start a scout den. Really. The goons are projecting their own sexual desires onto others. etc.

  15. I no of no reliable information about how educated most FLDS kids are. I’m not a fan of home schooling since most states provide very little oversite and not educating kids at all is completely possible.

    I do think there is evidence of lots of child labor law violations and I have seen photos of very young children who appear to be FLDS doing hard physical labor with no apparent close adult supervision.

    My mother believed in kids working and learning practical skills, but she kept it age appropriate. I can do pretty much anything a 1930’s farm wife could do with the exception of livestock skills; we were too urban for her to pull that off. But I learned to garden, can, dry and smoke food, plan food needs and storage for a year, make cheese, sew, make a pattern for clothes from scratch, knit, crochet, tat, do double entry book keeping, estimate interest on a loan, etc. before I was 18. My dad taught me to change a tire and check the oil on the car before I was allowed to learn to drive. However, I did none of that at the expense of my education. I haven’t heard anyone on this blog express the idea that children should not be taught work ethic or basic life skills, just that their labor should not be abused. Child labor laws were an outcome of the industrial revolution and are nothing new.

  16. Blogogre, what I wrote above about these children is NOT a crock. It is the truth, as I have been present when their reading and writing skills have been professionally tested. So, about that, you are right when you say “but hey.. what do I know?” Because you know nothing about these illiterate children who were raised in these FLDS families.

    I am just so glad to hear that you did not experience this social injustice of being deprived of a basic education. And I am also glad to hear that you know how to use a dictionary to look up the definition of words you’re not familiar with.

    You also said We should be able to read “hamburger” or “hot dog” by the about the 3rd grade. NO?

    You are absolutely correct about this blogogre. But, a child who learns how to read and understand a word such as “hamburger” or “hot dog” in the third grade won’t be able to do that if they are not allowed to advance to the third grade because they are taken out of school in the second grade to go to work on a full-time base.

    As you so eloquently put it; it is grim. What great future and aspirations do these particular children have?

    They need much tutoring to be brought up to the basic intelligence/knowledge level for their age. Or they face a pretty grim future.

  17. Blogogre, I am beginning to realize that you are not here for the sake of argument or rational debate or to discuss the issues and differing opinions. You are coming across as a pompous a$$, so my new name for you is BlogA$$.

    FU,
    Love Fred

  18. So the earliest ‘lost kids’ I met were in the mid 80s, the sister hadn’t wanted to be forced to “marry” an old close relative, her brother and the other guy escaped working for free. I confess to not knowing all the details, and didn’t at the time know what to ask or what I could ask. O yes, that was before Warren Jeffs’ time. He was still at the school there in SLC. That’s when and where I first became interested in this mess.

  19. Betty, Would that be any more dishonest than posting the link here as though it was relevant?

  20. Keep it in your pants Fred.

    I can see you wouldn’t know a rational debate if you saw one. (look it up) You are one of those who just gets pissed if someone dares to disagree with your bigotry.

  21. Well anon, maybe you do know. I’ll have to take your word for it, but even a home school would have to be pretty slack to not at least teach basic reading skill. I don’t now know the schools per se, but I know some of the teachers and I have hard time believing they wouldn’t put some value on that. Are you in public education by any chance? Just wondering if you have a personal beef with home school?

  22. Don’t you find it singular; strange that when they, the lost boys (and girls), finally get into the “real world” of education they suddenly jump three grades? lol I’m just askin’

    Blogogre said this on August 16, 2010 at 7:55 PM

    When Fawn Holm and Fawn Broadbent left the FLDS, they were enrolled in public school and were tested on an educational level several grades below other students of their age bracket who had been in public school. The Fawns has to get a lot of private tutoring and work really hard to catch up with high school students of their same ages in order to graduate with the class they should have been in age-wise (had they not been pulled out of public school).

    But, hey, what do I know? Well, I just know the facts about the educational levels these 2 girls from the FLDS had achieved when they left the group. And their educational levels were far inferior to peers of their same ages.

  23. Blogogre, please explain to me how my comment that “you are not here for the sake of argument or rational debate or to discuss the issues and differing opinions” makes me bigoted? What in this comment of mine is bigoted?

    Is everyone’s opinion that differs from your “bigoted”.

    If so, then that just reinforces to me why you are an a$$.

    Fred

  24. It’s difficult for a mother with an 8th grade education (at best) to home school her children. I personally know several ex-FLDS kids and all were well below grade level when they left and/or were kicked out. The reading was just part of the problem. They have problem with math, science and history.

    Watch Sons of Perdition, they didn’t know who the President was and named Bill Clinton instead of Adolph Hitler. Most of the ones I know of don’t want to start in the 8th grade when they are 17 or 18, so they just study for the GED, but even that takes a lot of tutoring.

  25. That story about the Fawns is a classic example of how “dumb” they were one year and how “smart” they got the next. Progaganda – pure and simple. Who can’t see that clearly?

  26. I’ve heard that Carolyn’s daughter Betty was sent to cook and clean for a work crew of her brothers and that in the evenings she was teaching them to read and do math.

  27. Not everyone’s opinion Fred, but yours is obviously. But I’m sorry I don’t share your proclivity. Move on.

  28. They didn’t get smart over night BlogO, it took tutoring and perseverance on their part to catch up.

  29. Not knowing the difference between Bill Clinton and Adolf Hitler could be a good thing… (I’m just kidding)

  30. No Proud.. it’s damn lie. A crock. Media propaganda. They didn’t just suddenly get smarter. It was probably Flora who got the sudden enlightenment.

  31. I’m not going to argue with you about it because your mind is made up, but the 3 boys who were featured in Sons of Perdition along with Joe’s little sister Hillary were all below the grade level for their age. That’s a fact.

  32. I won’t deny that. But below grade level for their age is not an FLDS exclusive phenomenon. Hey, wouldn’t you know it, there were boys in my own grade who didn’t do nearly as well as me scholastically. Go figure. They could kick my ass in soccer and hit home runs but who cares about that shit?

    Go get any three other kids off the street in Houston and do an expose on their educational skills. (and why they ended up there) I know, it doesn’t excuse the problem but get real… or objective, as S. would say.

  33. Blogogre, did you get a Laker or a Cricker education/work ethic? Homeschool or public schools? Also, what grade level did you reach?

    I’m just curious; you can be quite erudite at times.

  34. O, warren didn’t and apparently still doesn’t want an educated group of followers. i think he might be afraid that they will come across the truth about him and that’s that he’s a fraud and phony and not a prophet of anything except his own greed.

    power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  35. i love it, a laker or cricker education.

  36. #

    No Proud.. it’s damn lie. A crock. Media propaganda. They didn’t just suddenly get smarter. It was probably Flora who got the sudden enlightenment.

    Blogogre said this on August 16, 2010 at 9:04 PM

    You’re so right about his BO. The Fawn girls did not suddenly get smarter. It took a lot of work, effort and tutoring for them to catch up with their age grade level and become smarter. These girls had been taught scripture and home economics, so they were probably ahead on those 2 subjects. But they were behind – way behind = on the basic educational courses.

    Of course you won’t believe that. Your problem, not mine.

  37. What is the difference between a laker and a cricker education ?

  38. and where is the objective data on lake and crick standardized educational testing scores compared with communities in the area of a similar demographic ? can anyone link to the data ? thanks

  39. S., answering that would take more research (if it’s at all available) and writing than I can muster here.

    My questions are really from one ex-flds to another and may not be terribly meaningful to anyone else. It also matters what era: pre- or post Warren/Alta Academy in SLC and pre- or post-Warren in the Crick. But I don’t need to pry beyond Blogogre’s comfort zone. I’m just selfishly curious.

  40. i think lakers got to go to alta academy as opposed to the crickers being homeschooled after warren had all the kids pulled out of school. other than that i’m not sure.

    as for standardized education testing scores, you’ve got to be kidding. there is no way the flds is going to allow their kids to take a gentile standardized test. like anon above said, they’d probably do great in home economics and mormon scripture, but not so great in anything we would consider a “core” class.

  41. erudite? Is that like above my grade level or something?

    I graduated from CCA … before they demolished it and moved it to Centennial. Then I took 3 years getting a 2 year degree because of economics and electives. (regrettably I was pretty flaky the last semester) I learned to write from Donald Richter… and John Steinbeck (just kidding sort of) But I just grew up around smart people, (like you) that made me extra keen just so I wouldn’t appear too stupid for words.

    I hate to admit it but blogging has improved my English, grammar and spelling more than anything else. If you are going to flame someone you have to get it right … the first time. lol

    And if weren’t for the FF spell checker, I wouldn’t even dare be here in spite of my high IQ. (heh heh heh)

  42. Keep prying E Tex, I like learning from the questions you ask.

  43. OK – Thanks for explaining Lake vs. Crick education, Femme de L’Est.

    Does anyone know where standardized testing scores may be found for the lake and crick schools, along with comparative data from other schools ?
    I think that would settle the issue objectively – it would eliminate concerns re : sample size and selection bias.

  44. Does CCA=Colorado City Academy? If so, it’s called El Cap now. The ex-FLDS who still live in Colorado City/Hildale go there with the Centennial Park Ward.

  45. S, there is no data for the lake and crick schools. the lake school has been gone for a looooooooooong time. CCA is gone too, but i’m not exactly sure how long ago all the students were pulled. the school in the crick now is called El Cap, but none of warren’s followers go there, only exes and centennial parkers.

  46. so these children are home schooled and there is no standardized testing to ascertain if the home school education is proceeding in concert with best educational practices ?
    ridiculous. this would never fly in ny.

  47. S, there is a quiet perpetual rivalry between the crikers and the lakers. Sort of like BYU and the UofU. Nobody ever wins really but it’s a lot of fun to spar. We all still meet at the bar and laugh together no matter who won the day.

    But I confess… the Laker’s are the smartest. (Me and my cricker best buddies excluded)

    But woah.. she called me erudite! I’m on cloud 9. She probably thought I was a laker. lol

  48. Well… while I was still a Laker , and before I escaped, Alta Academy DID have state oversight and DID do standardized testing. I’ll admit, however, the state didn’t pay a whole helluva lot of attention. My education was way back and like Warren, entirely in public schools. Warren started teaching at Alta very soon after his high school graduation.

    The Crick schools also had state oversight — before Warren shut everything down to homeschool level. A lot could be said about those homeschools, but I just can’t do it here.

    So, EVERYTHING changed (drastically) after Warren got hands-on in both places. Ogre sounds like a pre-Warren-schooled flds brat. (just kidding, Ogre) I just wondered when/where.

    Thank you Ogre! You do sound like a pre-Warren-schooled flds brat. (just kidding!) Yes! We are both very bright and we had a lot of bright people around us — both places.

    Now, all you have to do is look up that word, and I bet you’ll agree with me.

  49. Well… while I was still a Laker , and before I escaped, Alta Academy DID have state oversight and DID do standardized testing. I’ll admit, however, the state didn’t pay a whole helluva lot of attention. My education was way back and like Warren, entirely in public schools. Warren started teaching at Alta very soon after his high school graduation.

    The Crick schools also had state oversight — before Warren shut everything down to homeschool level. A lot could be said about those homeschools, but I just can’t do it here.

    So, EVERYTHING changed (drastically) after Warren got hands-on in both places. Ogre sounds like a pre-Warren-schooled flds brat. (just kidding, Ogre) I just wondered when/where.

    Thank you Ogre! You do sound like a pre-Warren-schooled flds brat. (just kidding!) Yes! We are both very bright and we had a lot of bright people around us — both places.

    Now, all you have to do is look up that word, and I bet you’ll agree with me.

  50. Testing…
    Something went wrong with my just-submitted post. Is this site hammered?

  51. That is just patently not true Proud. We were never afraid of a fair test. And I don’t ever remember not doing pretty well on them individually and as a group. Bring it on. There would be nothing better to prove that all these allegations of undereducated ignorance is self-serving anti-flds media myth.

    El Capitan is the new public High School. (of Media infamy)

    The CCA (Colorado City Academy) is a private parochial high school, 9-12 relocated and still functional in Centennial. Self funded, by student tuition. Which is why a lot of the kids go to the public school instead.

    First rate both of them.

    It’s also not true that there are no FLDS in El Cap. They are gradually filtering (courageously) back in. Why not?

  52. Yes ET. I can honestly say that I never learned anything ever from warren. whew!

    (except maybe what NOT to do)

    I did listen to one of his Priesthood History tapes once. “Gag me with a spoon”. The Bible is my favorite book, but not his version of it.

  53. “And here again … teaching children to work should not be a crime.”

    And here again — putting young children into hazardous conditions using dangerous machinery is NOT teaching children to “work”. It is placing their lives at risk.

    I am noticing a pattern. A certain poster will make accusations and wild claims like “Children in the FLDS test three grades higher than their peers.” WITHOUT offering a shred of data, and then will accuse others of making wild and baseless claims. That would be considered “projection” in some circles, but what do I know.

    This same poster will make veiled references to vague agendas by the media, the government, the court systems, etc. (again, with no data, just claims) refuse to clarify or be specific, because of course everyone would tear these arguments apart OR use them to further some propaganda conspiracy, but anyone who points out that this is hardly rational, logical OR unbiased dialogue is accused of bigotry and “illogic”. (Granted, the FUs aren’t exactly conducive to dialogue though.)

    My conclusion, dialogue with this poster is pointless. This poster wishes merely to make claims and dismiss all evidence presented to the contrary as “wrong” (if for no other reason than “God” knows more than science) and then mock others for not falling into the “proper” course of thought. Why bother? There IS no desire for dialgue on that poster’s part — Fred got that right enough.

  54. I talked to some El Cap kids in July and they are the ones who told me that no FLDSers go to El Cap, on exes and Parkers.

  55. Sheesh!! Sorry for my mixed up post(s) above.
    I hope Admin will fix it.

    My computer seems to be glitching and probably warning me it’s time to shut down and get some sleep.
    ….

    BlogO, I was vaguely aware of the “quiet perpetual rivalry between the crikers and the lakers.” Nicely said; but I will say, never from me personally.

    Heh! Spelling correction… it’s “whoa”… not “woah” – lol.
    (Just giving you my version of a hard time.)

    There a rock song with a line that goes:
    “Hey! You! Get offa my cloud!”
    And that’s where I’m headed now.

  56. That’s Great Rebeckah, you and Fred can just have at it.

    If you take the time to do your own research though, you’ll find what I said to be true enough. But it’s not black and white like you like it. I’ll grant that.

    But what the hell, you only want proof unless it’s an allegation that you want to hear. Then the accusations are good enough. Like I always say.. make your own case. If you can. You and Fred.

    Actually, I don’t really care if you don’t believe me. That’s one of the benefits of having an information advantage.

  57. ok proud. I stand corrected on that one. I was under the impression there were a few trickling back in.

  58. blogogre, you mentioned playing soccer in your 9:22 PM post.

    “They could kick my ass in soccer and hit home runs but who cares about that shit?”

    Soccer, really? That is not a common American sport played until the past 10-15 or so years in the USA. It was a very slow sport to catch on in popularity in the USA. It seems unusual for that to be a common sport that was played by fundamentalists who probably didn’t have access to many soccer coaches.

    Baseball, I can understand. But soccer? Hmmm. It makes me think you just outed yourself as an impostor.

  59. It seems that things are posting in a delayed fashion… I don’t know why.
    Good night.

  60. Fine Rebeckah, you and Fred (the sock puppet) can have at it.

    If you do your own research you will find that what I said was true enough. But it’s not black and white like you like it.

    Make your own case, if you can. You are the queen of conventional wisdom, always coming late to the party and saying what everyone else already knows like it was breaking news. That isn’t all bad, but it does put you at a disadvantage sometimes of understanding the nuances… the rest of the story. It may get you a few patronizing glances but what the heck, we all still love ya.

    Actually I really don’t care of you don’t believe me. That’s one of the benefits of having an information advantage.

  61. I think the site like it, ETexas

  62. Baseball, I can understand. But soccer? Hmmm. It makes me think you just outed yourself as an impostor.
    ——-
    Nope. We played it, shin kicking and all, goalies, the whole bit. lol Basketball and kick ball too. Ain’t it just a bummer to find out that the people you thought were gimps were as normal as you after all.

    Liars have a hard believing anyone else dude. Maybe you just outed yourself with that one.

  63. The more I read what Blogogre says, the more I think this poster is a member of the Centennial Park group. Colorado City Academy (the actual adobe school building in Colorado City) was intentionally destroyed around the mid 1980’s split between the group(s) and was rebuilt with the same name in Centennial Park.

    I think this blogogre poster possibly may have grown up in the “old” FLDS group, but became part of the CP group after the split.

    I also think blogogre is playing his role in the PR spin the CP group plays to downplay the abuses in their own sect by demonizing the evils of Warren Jeffs, while preaching the virtues of polygamy as a whole.

    Do some research on the Centennial Park Action Committee and their involvement in national and international press and television programs and you’ll see what I’m referring to.

    The goal of the Centennial Park Action Committee is to decriminalize polygamy and they are trying to cover their heritage from 20 years ago as fast as they can. They seem to be trying to re-write history and to distance themselves from Warren Jeffs as best they can.

    But, as one member of the CP group beautifully said it, “they are all cut from the same cloth”.

  64. sorry about all those duplicate posts… it glitched and I thought it wasn’t posting.

    whoa! But hey ET, maybe we say it different (and slower) at the crick… ya know? But I can learn, after all what’s an erudite scholar who can’t pick up a new word or two occasionally.

    And honestly, I was never in the laker vs cricker competition myself either, I just watched it go down a few times. I only went to “FireSide” one time.

  65. You could think all that anon, but you’d be wrong. Better not to make wild guesses, don’t you think?

  66. why are the comments from the last half hour deleted?

  67. I’ll vouch for soccer having been popular enough up at SLC in the 80s.

  68. Wow… FireSide! Yep, those were the days!!

    Yes, born and bred crickers (generally speaking) have their own unique accent… or maybe you’d call it a drawl. It’s not quite like a Texas drawl, but there’s definitely a different dialect there. You can hear it in that interview video someone posted in the previous Discussion thread.

    Ogre, you can say it as slow as you want and spelling isn’t going to be graded on a forum like this. Sometimes I just like gently pulling a chain here and there when it comes to spelling. My kids love me for it… others just get miffed.

  69. OK Blogogre,
    Your “logic” astounds me. My original question was “Blogogre, please explain to me how my comment that “you are not here for the sake of argument or rational debate or to discuss the issues and differing opinions” makes me bigoted? What in this comment of mine is bigoted?

    Is everyone’s opinion that differs from yours “bigoted”.”

    You never responded to my question, but now in your 11:13 PM post you call me “the sock puppet”

    Great logic, man. Hardly an answer to my direct question asking for why you think one equals the other. Where did you learn to connect your synapse dots?

    Fred

  70. OK Blogogre,
    Your “logic” astounds me. My original question was “Blogogre, please explain to me how my comment that “you are not here for the sake of argument or rational debate or to discuss the issues and differing opinions” makes me bigoted? What in this comment of mine is bigoted?

    Is everyone’s opinion that differs from yours “bigoted”.”

    You never responded to my question, but now in your 11:13 PM post you call me “the sock puppet”

    Great logic, man. Hardly an answer to my direct question asking for why you think one equals the other. Where did you learn to connect your synapse dots?

    Fred

  71. Salt Lakers sound almost a bit Canadian eh. Different from down in Dixie which yes is slower, more western to my ear.

  72. Interesting guess about BO, anon.

  73. Check the Texas Polygamy blog. There are old entries by Blogogre from 2008 as well as anonymous entries which sound like him which indicate that he left FLDS and joined Centennial Park for a time. He is now posting from Mexico from an area known to be inhabited by Americans who are practicing polygamy there.

  74. for example, see this thread :

    http://texaspolygamy.blogspot.com/2008/04/yfz-allows-media-on-sacred-ground.html

  75. or this one :

    http://texaspolygamy.blogspot.com/2008/06/willie-jessop.html

  76. I am completely new to this discussion. I would love to see factual data on the level of literacy/ numeracy for teens exiled from FLDS. I would love to see a syllabus for what was covered on world history.

  77. I think anon at 11:05 hit the nail on the head. I was coming to the same conclusion yesterday afternoon.

  78. Anon

    Yes, I see that too. Blohole says “crimes didnt start or end with the FLDS”

    I think he was trying to say this: “Polygamist crimes didnt start or end with Warren”…

  79. RS – there is no syllabus to the best of our knowledge, and there is no published factual data on literacy or educational status of teens who left or were exiled from the FLDS. I think that is the concern that we have identified.

  80. Have any of you had the opportunity to read this new book yet ?
    I intend to download it on Kindle tonight…

    Khaled Hosseini’s bestselling debut novel THE KITE RUNNER told of the bond and betrayal that linked two young Afghani boys, and showed how their personal and political history affected their lives and the lives of their children. In his second novel A THOUSAND SPLENDID SUNS Hosseini shows the tenuous alliance made between two Afghan women who are both married to the same brutal older man. Miriam, an illegitimate daughter, is 15 when she is married to Rasheed. Years later he takes another wife, the orphaned 14-year old Laila. Together, the two women, subjugated by culture and circumstance, must find a way to survive and protect that most-precious of commodities: hope.

  81. Haven’t read that one S, but I just finished Jason William’s book “Zero Chance”. It tells how he was exed and Warren and company tried to keep his 2 sons from him. He got full custody of the boys and was able to keep them out of Warren’s hands. It’s really a good book to read to see the lengths the FLDS will go to to get something.

  82. blogogre, you mentioned playing soccer in your 9:22 PM post.

    “They could kick my ass in soccer and hit home runs but who cares about that shit?”

    Soccer, really? That is not a common American sport played until the past 10-15 or so years in the USA. It was a very slow sport to catch on in popularity in the USA. It seems unusual for that to be a common sport that was played by fundamentalists who probably didn’t have access to many soccer coaches.

    Baseball, I can understand. But soccer? Hmmm. It makes me think you just outed yourself as an impostor.

    =======================
    I think blogogre did have a childhood involving groups of boys playing various ball games; I think he lived before that was shut down. I don’t think he is referring to organized leagues.

    I grew up in Colorado City, but I don’t know if blogogre did. I don’t know about activities before the school bell rang in Salt Lake. Here, it was common for a group of boys to go play soccer on one field and workups on another. I know I did as a child. For 1/2 hour before school started, it was very common to have a group playing soccer on whichever team they wanted to be on, and another group playing workups on another field.

  83. I believe he is who he says he is.

  84. Ditto, S.

    Good confirmation, cement.

    Things were much more humane before Warren. (the underage and mind control crap, etc. notwithstanding )

  85. Has he said who or what he is? I think you folks have assigned an identity to him while he just keeps telling you you are dumb bigots. But then, I’ve been gone for two weeks, so I might have missed some flash of honesty.

  86. I have had long discussions with Ogre on another blog. His story is consistent.

  87. I am willing to accept that blogogre has had some affiliation with the flds and/or other mormon polygamy groups. However I get little in the way of new knowledge, insights, etc from reading his posts. I will probably ignore or briefly skim anything he posts and will not respond to him. It appears to me that those who do respond are castigated as bigots, one sided and so on.

  88. Ogre has conflicted feelings about his religion and upbringing. I am sure that there are many here who can relate to that. I think he has fond memories of his childhood, and he wants others to hear that not everyone was unhappy in the FLDS – at least before the advent of Warren Jeffs – hence his defensiveness.

  89. “If you take the time to do your own research though, you’ll find what I said to be true enough. But it’s not black and white like you like it. I’ll grant that.”

    I’ve done plenty of research and continue to research, Blogogre. If all the media sources are so corrupted, as you wish to claim, then someone such as yourself will have to point to other research sources. Otherwise you simply make baseless claims and then derride others for not taking your word for it. Since you are, by your own admission, long gone from the community your take on the situation is actually going to be about as informed as ours. You’ve already been corrected by people who were there or there more recently and I’ve seen you backpeddle and admit that your information isn’t as complete as you seem to want us to believe. Dialogue is clearly not your goal — you simply come to say how wrong everyone is without any details as to why, when or how we’re wrong. You say “do some research” but ignore the ressearch already done. Heck, you even ignore the results from decades of research into the harm polygamy causes women and children because “God knows better”.

    “But what the hell, you only want proof unless it’s an allegation that you want to hear.”

    You don’t know what I want and you don’t know what I want to hear. You’ve made assumptions and most of them are dead wrong when it comes to my wants and desires. Perhaps you should take a look at yourself because you seem to practice exactly what you accuse others of.

    “Then the accusations are good enough. Like I always say.. make your own case. If you can. You and Fred.”

    I agree, Blogogre — make your case. I’ve made mine. You aren’t here for dialogue. Feel free to make a case — ANY case — instead of vague insinuations or rude accusations. So far you’ve shown nothing but outdated informations and nostalgic memories. There are plenty of people here who have admitted many times that things were better (not fantastic, but better) before Warren. No one claims that every single member of the FLDS have always been miserable — or even that they’re ALL miserable right now. However, abuses of vulnerable men, women and children have been present since the very beginning. Many women would NOT have chosen polygamy but they had it chosen for them. They do NOT have free choices to leave when they are not given full and free educations and are indoctrinated into absolute fear of the “outside” world. I think what bugs you the most is that the harm is real and even though you weren’t miserable you know that there are plenty who were. (Of course that’s ME making an assumption and I know I could be wrong. Just going on my personal knowledge of basic human motivations there.)

    “Actually, I don’t really care if you don’t believe me. That’s one of the benefits of having an information advantage.”

    I’ve seen no information advantage on your part. You’ve been shown to be inaccurate on several occasions. Frankly, I find e-texas’s information advantage to be credible. I really enjoyed, and agreed with, your information on the girls having children, by the way E-Texas. Your points were great and valid. Like I said at the time, it doesn’t minimize the physical danger to them and the babies but it’s good to hear that MOST of the children born to those underage mothers aren’t likely to be neglected and mistreated by an ill-prepared young mother.

  90. The more I follow this the more I realize that you simply can’t argue facts with a believer.

    The fact that there are still people who support the FLDS after all the facts that have come out of the various trials, shows that for the true believer it’s a case of “the facts be damned.”

    To be an FLDS supporter you either need to ignore a lot of facts or have pretty odd and somewhat twisted beliefs that allow you to rationalize the facts you accept. (Or perhaps a combination of both!)

    While you would hope that rational discussion and showing relevant facts would sway folks, I simply don’t see it happening.

    So, try to show them the facts, but I wouldn’t hold much hope that you’re doing more than wasting your breath. I tend to vacillate between ignoring and sarcastic mockery. The irony is that a lot of folks are so dense they don’t realize their being made a mockery.

    Any my $0.02 for today.

  91. OK, S. What is his story, cause I have not heard it?

  92. Betty,
    I will refrain from
    disclosing too much personal information without his permission –
    Ogre reported that he had a happy childhood in the FLDS, felt he had a good education, no one in his family had an arranged marriage, everyone he knew
    with a “suggested”or arranged marital partner had the final say regarding whether or not they proceeded with the arrangement,
    mother gave birth to him at at 16, parents got along well, and he does not identify an increased incidence of abuse in the community. He also attended college.
    He left of his own volition and was not compelled to do so, so he doubts the “Lost Boy” phenomenon. He is still a fundamentalist, but not FLDS.

  93. Addendum – Ogre left FLDS before the advent of Warren Jeffs.

  94. Looks like those Fire Department shopping sprees of buying exotic chocolates, baby clothes, living room furniture, fine dining, etc. has caused Hildale to have a serious budget deficit.

    Hildale to meet, discuss tax hike

    HILDALE – The town of Hildale will have a public hearing tonight to discuss increasing its share of property taxes by more than 300 percent.

    Under the proposal, homes would go from paying the town $178.33 annually to $601.02. For businesses, the town’s portion of property taxes would increase from $324.24 annually to $1,092.77.

    Read more –
    http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20100817/NEWS01/8170314/Hildale-to-meet-discuss-tax-hike

  95. Thanks, S. That all makes sense and is believable.

  96. Under the proposal, homes would go from paying the town $178.33 annually to $601.02.

    ——————————-

    That’s still dirt cheap. Although I don’t know what you get for those taxes. I’ve done the google street view through the twin cities, and I’d rather pay higher taxes to live where I live now.

  97. Re: Blogogre. I don’t mind having his viewpoint expressed here. If he grew up in the FLDS, he has a valid perspective. Even Carolyn Jessop says there were good times during her childhood.

    But whose picture is that at the top of the page? I don’t think believing Warren Jeffs is an abuser and a misogynist makes me “bigoted.” I think any religion that strives to keep women pregnant and in the kitchen is wrong.

  98. So the whole community get to pay for the excess of a few.

  99. Yes, I agree the taxes are dirt cheap, but then that area is very poor.

  100. Has BO blamed George W Bush yet?

  101. PT said: So the whole community get to pay for the excess of a few.

    Exactly — it’s kinda like who cares what happens to them [those who hafta pay] as long as I get mine [rewards from ripping off the community]. It’s like the folks there are thought of as a 24/7/365 ATM.

  102. The increase in the taxes is strictly a city tax – these rates are not what is paid to the county for property taxes. The new higher taxes will be used for police officers and the fire dept.

    Had they not wasted public taxpayer dollars buying tons of expensive stuff for personal use, they probably wouldn’t be broke.

    The ones from the fire department who spent the PUBLIC TAXPAYER DOLLARS on personal stuff and bankrupted the city coffers to fund the fire department should be thrown in jail.

    THIEVES! Nothing but a bunch of thieves!

  103. Stamp, the occupancy agreement payments would go to Bruce Wisan to pay for the surveys and the city mandated improvements on the infrastructure, among other things. This money would not go to the city to fund the fire department; it would go to the UEP which owns the houses.

    According to the evidence released regarding the Colorado City fire department, the money to run this service for the twin cities USED TO BE THERE before the thieves embezzled it.

  104. For clarification I should have said THAT money (occupancy agreement payments) would not go to the city to fund the fire department; it would go to the UEP which owns the houses.

    The tax hike would go strictly to the city for the FD and PD. I wonder who is going to monitor the taxes to see if they are actually spent for police and fire protection?

    Or are they also going to be spent at Costco and Sam’s Club for more exotic chocolates and baby clothes?

  105. Your blog just died Ron. RIP.

    Nobody will ever trust you again. Yeah they will all slap you on the back and do the patronizing kudos temporarily, but they won’t trust you and your minions when the dust clears.

  106. B.O, what ARE you going on about this time?

  107. Maybe your computer is dying Blogo. FLDSlegal.blogspot.com is running just fine.

    Where is your blog blohole??

  108. Why must the common people bear the burden of the increased tax ?
    Why don’t they just attempt to recoup the monies from the guilty parties ?

  109. S, I think the Arizona Attorney General Goddard is seeking to do that for his constituents in Colorado City. What is the Utah Attorney General Shurtleff doing for his constituents in Hildale?

    Must all of the locals pay for Warren’s lawyers out of the coffers of the public departments in the community?

    If the thieves can’t be required to refund the skimmed money, then can’t they at least be thrown in jail where they can’t divert (steal) any more public funds?

  110. There only seems to be a select few that are “privy” to Blogorges self importance. I’ve yet to see anything worthwhile.

    Blogorge = page filler = a lot of nothing about nothing

    Defuse the situation my eye.

    Was a part of the FLDS but not now. Part of a different group now but can’t discuss certain things due to personal religious beliefs and loyalty to religion. And is just tired trying to justify things to bigots. lol

    Going to bars? Swearing? Name calling? Being deceitful. What time is Church Service?

    lol A while ago I said blogorge is out of gas. Maybe I was wrong. He’s full of it.

    Love Walton

  111. Must all of the locals pay for Warren’s lawyers out of the coffers of the public departments in the community?

    If the thieves can’t be required to refund the skimmed money, then can’t they at least be thrown in jail where they can’t divert (steal) any more public funds ?

    ===================================================================

    Anon – I agree – they should be thrown in jail – and community funds should not be used to fund Warren Jeffs defense.

  112. Blogogre commits the logical fallacy of believing he/she is the world. Blogogre had a good childhood in the FLDS therefore children aren’t being harmed in the FLDS. Blogogre thinks polygamy is okay, therefore only bigots don’t think it’s okay. Blogogre is upset by something Ron wrote therefore no one will ever trust Ron again. Blogogre definitely shows signs of being emotionally retarded (I mean that in the sense of not having developed to emotional maturity, not in an insult referring to intellectually impared individuals) which is something that I have read occurs in stressful childhoods. It tends to lend credence to the assertion that polygamy is not good for children, even if the children have convinced themselves as adults that it was.

  113. It tends to lend credence to the assertion that polygamy is not good for children, even if the children have convinced themselves as adults that it was.

    OMG Rebeckah, truer words were never spoken!

  114. So BlogO, what did I miss about Ron’s blog?

  115. People often tend to be just a bit too self-righteous in Utah. This person experienced this trait.

    Utah values?
    I was born and raised in Salt Lake City, but I am nevertheless confused about a local issue. I do not know what “Utah values” are. The term is constantly used in the media, by politicians and even by the general public.

    Yet I have no idea to what they are referring. How are “Utah values” different from, say, “Colorado values” or “Nebraska values”?

    I am very aware of the attempts to control my life by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Republican Party, the right-wing conservatives, the Eagle Forum, the Sutherland Institute, et al. But these are opinions, and they are not state-sanctioned.

    continued
    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/50099880-82/values-utah-state-citizens.html.csp

  116. http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4539.htm

  117. FYI

    HA HA

    Yeah, the muslims and fundies vie on who can be more crazy.

    Mahmoud Amadmanjihadi is just a muslim Warren with a better position.

  118. S, I read A Thousand Splendid Suns earlier this year.

    I couldn’t put it down, read it 2 days (which is remarkable for me, I have 3 kids under 6 who don’t like to give me reading time).

    I was incredibly impressed, it was beautifuly written, it made me cry, it offered profound insight into the lives of women in modern Afganistan, it increased my gratitude that I and my children were lucky enough to be born into a wealthy democracy that has a tradition of valuing gender equality and social justice (Australia) and it prompted me to donate to Amnesty International and to a charity devoted to educating girls and women in rural Afganistan.

    I’m not sure how relevent it is to the discussion about American Mormon polygamy though. The women depicted in the novel live in a war torn nation with an entrenched legal, religious and social system that supports their husbands right to control and abuse them. I don’t wish to trivialise the experiences of Mormon Fundamentalist women, but they have many many more options and much more external support to change the lives of themselves and their children, and a legal system that will support their right to do so. Their immediate society may be oppressive and hard to escape from, but once they do so they have options Afgan women can only dream of.

    Melissa

  119. RIH

    “The more I follow this the more I realize that you simply can’t argue facts with a believer.

    The fact that there are still people who support the FLDS after all the facts that have come out of the various trials, shows that for the true believer it’s a case of “the facts be damned.”

    To be an FLDS supporter you either need to ignore a lot of facts or have pretty odd and somewhat twisted beliefs that allow you to rationalize the facts you accept. (Or perhaps a combination of both!)

    While you would hope that rational discussion and showing relevant facts would sway folks, I simply don’t see it happening.

    So, try to show them the facts, but I wouldn’t hold much hope that you’re doing more than wasting your breath.”

    ==============

    Thats well said, and it seems to have hit home with Blogo. Instead of debating the issue, he goes for an Ad Hominem attack.

    Kinda proving Ron’s point.

    Also, that makes THREE (count em – 3) blogs that I’ve seen Blogo attack.

    I’d like to see him post a blog and get his word out. NAAHH, he just likes to play dodgeball, and doesnt have the faith to say what he really believes.

  120. I didn’t have a problem with Ron’s post. My “attack” was directed at the biased Admin of this blog. I was under the impression it was his. If I’m wrong about that then I apologize to Ron. His actual posting has a lot more class and shows more intelligence and objectivity than most all of the others here.

  121. This is not Ron’s blog, Anonymous.

  122. Stamp

    That comment was directed to a lot of folks and Blogo just happened to fit into that group. The weird thing is that it’s not just relevant facts about the FLDS that they want to ignore. It’s basically anything that challenges their worldview.

    Now actually the science behind those observation equally apply to any “believer.” It doesn’t matter if you belief is religious, political, or about space aliens, the fact is that once we get to the status of “believer” then we tend to discount facts. (Obviously some more than others.)

    Anyway, Blogogre, no insult was intended. You apparently have a least some of a skeptical streak. My advice is to remain skeptical always.

  123. What is it that folks think I’m some evil puppet master overlord?

    I’m merely a guy in Houston with my own point of view. I say what I think perhaps sometimes too bluntly, but I don’t have vast internet minions running around doing my bidding.

  124. This blog is run by a loosely affiliated group of people. And I find it amusing that the posting of legal documents is “biased”. Backs up what Ron said about believers.

  125. Anon @ 6:24am, I doubt those that run this blog really care that you think this blog is biased. If you don’t like it, quit coming here and posting. It’s as simple as that.

  126. http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-hildale-town-coucil-raises-property-tax-237,0,1538755.story

    Wisan says that the tax increase is prejudicial, as it shifts the burden of tax onto those who actually pay. He plans to publish a list of those delinquent in taxes, which would include the mayor and members of the town council voting for the tax increase.

    Things that make you go….Hmmmmmmmm.

  127. And this….
    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/state/story/EXCLUSIVE-Shurtleff-running-for-re-election/1igNTVAv8ECo08qfKGqkAw.cspx

    Shurtleff wants to run again since there is so much unfinished. He wants to bring ‘peace’ to the people of Hildale. Again. Hmmmmmmm.

  128. I think they should publish the list. I also think that those that pay their taxes should file suit against the deadbeats for causing the budget shortfall by not paying their fair share. I don’t know for a fact, but I’m willing to guess that Willie “The Thug” Jessop and Merril “Deadbeat Dad” Jessop lead the list.

  129. People who aren’t paying their taxes should lose their homes just like they do in the “real” world.

  130. Why isn’t the town council prosecuting those who don’t pay taxes? Oh, cause it’s THEM! Call in the Lord High Executioner and get him to cut off his own head.

  131. Publishing a list isn’t going to make a difference imo. Those that haven’t been paying the taxes are still there. They know who they are. Some of us know who they are.

    We could give them a list of those practicing Polygamy and they don’t have the time, resources nor the want to do anything about it.

    What’s going to happen? Eviction?

    What will happen? Property sold for back taxes to those in CPark?

    Sister Wives will hit the air. Shurtleff will probably win in another election- Utah will elevate….

    When they talk about the men having their own planet I actually think they might be just talking about Utah.

  132. This conference may be of some interest to your readership :

    http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_respond/event_workshops.asp

  133. I think it was Rebeckah who raised the issue earlier of the psychological effects of being raised in a cult on children. Here is an article written on the topic of the psychological development and needs of children who were raised in cults :

    http://icsahome.com/infoserv_respond/faq_sga.asp?Subject=Raised+in+Cultic+Groups%3A+The+Impact+on+the+Development+of+Certain+Aspects+of+Character#More

  134. I figured out that we have seen the family in “Sister Wives” already. It’s the long haired guy from the BBC spot, Kody Brown.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7953270.stm

  135. From the kody link:

    “”My relationship with my husband is only going to be great if his relationship with his other wives is great,” said Christine.
    And what about the widowed Anne Wilde?

    “I had such a wonderful man as a husband,” she said. “I was so privileged. He was such a blessing that I was willing to share him with other good women.”

    I thought Ann Wilde saw to it the other wife was spooked away and she lived monogamous but pretended to live in polygamy? Forgive me if I’m wrong, but what happened there?

  136. Funniest statement of Anne Wilde : Which translation of the New Testament is she reading ? None that I know of…

    “This was our best selling one,” she said, pulling out a slim paperback called Jesus was Married.

    “This is Martha and Mary,” explained Anne pointing to a picture at the front. “And then, of course, there was Mary Magdelene. You see, Jesus said follow me. He didn’t say follow me in all things except marriage.”

    Jesus was not married to anyone – maybe she should have read the New Testament.

    Or maybe she should also have read this excerpt from The New Testament :

    1 Corinthians 7 :
    1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, (singular) and each woman HER OWN husband.

  137. I’ve never seen a copy of “Jesus was Married”. Must have been a limited publishing.

  138. There is absolutely no scriptural support for the conjecture that Christ was married. Obviously some people believe that, however there are people who believe in unicorns, conspiracy theories, etc. All without any supporting evidence or documents.

  139. Well those folks believe Warren is a Prophet, so they will believe anything.

    At least Blogo can see a donkey when he makes a big enough ass of himself.

  140. There is also no Scriptural connection between Mary Magdalene and the woman (prostitute?courtesan?) who anoints Christ with perfume.

  141. Ron, do you have any minions to spare? I’m short-handed and could really use the help creating more sock puppets. 🙂

  142. Creating sock puppets is a critical thing TC, take care.

  143. Betty, our Church is doing a church-wide read the Bible in 90 days. I’ll keep a close eye out when we get to the New Testament for these things.

  144. Awww Connie, sock puppets are easy.

  145. Y’all know I’m joking about the sock puppets, right? And just aggravating Ron about someone thinking he has minions to do his bidding around the Internet. I enjoy reading Ron’s blog too; he’s a really good resource for legal questions.

  146. Stamp, I think you are referencing Mary Batchelor who is Anne Wilde’s partner in the pro-polygamy group, Principle Voices.

    Vicki Prunty was Mary’s sister-wife who left and later became one of the founding members of the anti-polygamy group, Tapestry Against Polygamy.

    Since Vicki left, Mary and Gary have lived monogamously.

    Anne Wilde was married to the author, Ogden Kraut. He wrote dozens of pamphlets praising polygamy and they were privately published by his company. Although Anne was a plural wife, she pretty much was the sole companion of Ogden, so they basically lived monogamously.

    Although both Mary and Anne sing the praises of polygamy, neither one of them have actually lived it like most plural wives live it – spending years sharing your husband with other women and their children.

    Ogden Kraut’s book “Jesus was Married” can be read online here
    http://www.ogdenkraut.com/Jesus%20Was%20Married.htm

  147. Yes Connie I’m joking too, given the source, the delusional persona who attacked Ron.

  148. Wilde Kraut, no wonder there is a batchelor

  149. Ogden Kraut? I didn’t know that. Explains a lot.

  150. Warren in his dictation in 2002 stated Lucifer was the father of Cain and Eve was the mother.

    Also the FLDS are the pure seed of Jesus family that was wisked away to England.

    As polyaamy in the Bible, it happen, but it was NOT harmonious with God.

    Sarah was his only wife for 99 years before she gave Abraham his only child Isaac. Abraham did not seek another wife before hand, WHY if he was a polygamist?

    Hagar had only one child Ishmael, and that was because Abraham and Sarah did not wait on God’s promise.

    The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians
    For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman.

    4:23 Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise.

    4:24 Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar
    .
    4:25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children.

    4:26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.

    4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

    4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.

    4:30 Howbeit what saith the scripture? Cast out the handmaid and her son: for the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.

    4:31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the free woman.

    Polygamy is born of the flesh and not of the spirit.

  151. i was joking too Connie. it just seemed the thing to do.

  152. Having briefly skimmed the ” biblical exegesis” (LOL!) of Ogden Kraut, I noted that Mr. Kraut is of the opinion that Jesus was married and was a polygamist.
    The Christian scriptures do NOT indicate that Jesus was married.
    Moreover, the Babylonian Talmud records that Jesus was a “mamser”
    Mamsers in the New Testament era could not marry.
    I will provide a link shortly to explain further what a mamser is…I think you will find this interesting.

  153. Warren’s Speedy Trial Hearing was cancelled.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12053918&hl=7

  154. That is great news, Proud Texan.

    Here is a link to a powerpoint presentation by a New Testament scholar which explains why Jesus was not married, contrary to the assertions of Ogden Kraut.

    http://www.instonebrewer.com/visualSermons/Illegitimate/_Sermon.htm

  155. I’m always looking for good minions, do you think winged monkeys are union? 🙂

  156. and are the winged monkeys capable of making pathology slides ? that is the real question for you !

  157. I think the REAL question is, is it minions or reptillian illuminati who are doing Satan’s work attacking the pure and virtuous FLDS?

  158. Snakes in the grass.

    Anne Wilde has played an interesting role for many years. jmo

    Here is a little trip back in time.

    As the siege entered the second week, many citizens questioned the need for such tactics. The news media labeled these tactics as “psychological warfare.” On January 24, Ramon and Harriett Swapp, the parents of Addam Swapp, arrived at the law enforcement command center in Marion complaining about the “bizarre” psychological pressure being applied. On January 25, Ogden Kraut, a longtime friend of the Singer family and fundamentalist Mormon, was allowed to visit the farm. He returned with the disappointing news that the standoff had done nothing to shake the convictions of Vickie Singer and Addam Swapp. They still believed an armed confrontation was needed to bring the resurrection of John Singer.

    The following day, Kraut again entered the farm and delivered a letter from Governor Bangerter, expressing concern for the children in the home and asking Addam Swapp and Vickie Singer to surrender. That evening, approximately 50 people rallied outside the Governor’s mansion calling for a peaceful solution to the standoff.

    On Wednesday, January 27th, communication was reestablished with the Singer farm, but authorities were unhappy with the message. Addam Swapp and Vickie Singer had prepared letters for Governor Bangerter. They were delivered via Ogden Kraut.

    http://publicsafety.utah.gov/highwaypatrol/history_1989/marion.html

  159. Diamonds in the sky or is it Diamonds in the mountains or is it just Diamonds in the Eye?

    But the idea of relief, Kevin Kraut believes, is a Mormon fundamental lost on most members, and even on most mine shareholders. “They don’t get it. When the mine comes in, do you think a lot of these people who got stock are gonna use it to help others, or help themselves?” Kevin asks.

    Kevin refers to the United Order, an early Mormon utopian philosophy drawn from the “law of consecration” mentioned in the Bible and LDS scriptures. The order envisioned a society of common goods and property, where brethren labored together to take care of one another. But Kevin thinks this teaching often is forgotten.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon463.html

  160. Aint it amazing how people make up thier own stories when reading the Bible? Its like, they assume and strip out this and that and then add to or take away from the words really say!

  161. No where in the bible does it say Mary Magdeline was a prostitute.

  162. Mary Batchlor amazes me to,, she sings the PRAISES of polygamy, YET, she doesn’t allow another wife in her own home!! Isn’t that hypercritical?

  163. correct DD1, Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute. She was simply a woman who had “seven demons cast out of her” a term usually used in the New Testament to mean that she was healed of an illness – or illnesses.

  164. Honestly guys – at the risk of starting some religious flame war- I don’t understand how you religious folks can see how perverse and twisted religion is and still cling to your beliefs.

    I mean evangelical leaders do meth and man whores. Catholic priest do children. Christians discriminate against gays. Muslims fly planes into buildings.

    Isn’t it time to throw aside your beliefs. Don’t you see that when you become a “believer” that you lose objectivity?

    Be good for goodness sake. Love others not because some Sky Daddy tells you but because you appreciate how you like to be loved and hate being scorned.

    OK – enough of my secular humanist rant for today…

  165. The only reason the area is poor is from all the MONEY they are required to give to Warren jeffs and other men who broke the law,, so they can have the BEST in defense. Those house in those two areas are HUGE, and anywhere else they would be paying a hell of alot more than 600 dollars a year!!

  166. Ron, I don’t follow a man, I follow God and his teachings! And even Preachers, Pastor, clergy are Human Beings, and do things wrong, because they are NOT God.

  167. I got diamonds on the sole of my shoes

  168. i think that if the city council and mayor are going to vote to raise property taxes, they should be the first to step up to the plate and pay it.

  169. oh yeah, willie and merril should be at the top of the list paying too.

  170. Hey there Deputydog 🙂 Good to see you.

    Before you go running off I want to tell you thank you for having a sharp eye and for your many posts.

  171. UEB, AUB, XYZ, 123 and coming soon…???

    Ogden Kraut was the person that arranged the meeting between Virginia Hill and Owen Allred.

    The ruling is a long time coming. The offense took place in October 1989. The civil investigation began in earnest in 1995. The original complaint to recover the stolen 1.54 million was filed in 1997. The matter was appealed to the Utah Supreme Court twice, with rulings favoring Virginia.

    In 1989, the defendants were a cohesive priesthood cabal. Owen Allred and John Putvin are now deceased. John Shugart, who the defendants attempted to make a third party defendant, is deceased. Jim Sandmire and Jeff Norman have left the group. Dennis Matthews, a kingpin in the theft, has been marginalized by the group. According to reports he is now a “drone” living off the labors of others. J. LaMoine Jenson succeeded Owen Allred as Presiding Elder. Apostolic United Brethren continues to expand. They are involved in acquiring 900 acres in San Pete County with enough water rights to support a township.

    http://polygamybooks.org/2010/04/16/virginia-hill-update–final-judgment.aspx

  172. Loved your “secular humanist rant,” Ron. Well said!!

  173. In court, Tammy later would name a high-ranking official from a Sacramento-area LDS ward as being the man who performed their marriage ceremony.

    After the marriage, she and Luis went to Utah on a two-day honeymoon. While they were there, she said, they visited and spent the night at the home of Ogden Kraut, a famous polygamist advocate and the author of several books on the subject. (Kraut died in the summer of 2002.) While they were at his home, Tammy and Luis picked up boxes of books and other literature for their group back in Sacramento. Tammy said they also attended church services with the Allreds, another famous polygamist family in Utah. “It was just like regular church,” she explained. “Except there were two or three women sitting with every man in the pews.”

    http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/content?oid=15069

  174. …and there are secular humanists as well as agnostics and atheists who do the same things as well, Ron.
    Good night

  175. Ron

    Do you believe there is evil?

    How do you explain evil?

  176. I found this on John Llewelyn’s Blog and I thought it raised many valid points –

    Below is a list of things which have to be denied or forgotten in order to believe that polygamy is a free choice for adult women, and that it takes place among consenting adults, is a victimless crime and is therefore not a crime.

    1. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget that women who agree to polygamy believe it will earn them celestial rewards and they fear eternal damnation if they resist.

    2. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget that women believe their husbands have control of their eternal destinies.

    3. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget the gender inequality and imbalance of power between the men and his plural wives.

    4. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must ignore the belief that the prophet or priesthood leader the women marry “presides over them” and he is therefore entitled to receive revelation from God concerning the women, empowering the male leaders with an ecclesiastical and fiduciary status beyond that of standard ordained clergy.

    5. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must not know that women covenant to obey (or hearken unto) their husbands – as he obeys God “in righteousness,” and that righteousness is subject to interpretation by the males in the community.

    6. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women who know what they are getting into, we must forget that the women are required to repent of their sins, and that the repentance process can be publicly humiliating, psychology devastating and even physically violent if necessary to achieve the desired humility and obedience.

    7. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget that women are pressured to suffer in silence while portraying an outward happiness.

    8. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget that righteous women must covenant to “live the law of consecration” or consent to be enslaved – giving their time, talent, possessions, resources to the building of the kingdom on this earth.

    9. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget that incest and abuse is rampant, and women immersed in this culture often have a damaged psychological foundation and sense of self.

    10. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget that polygamists are skilled at manipulating Biblical doctrine, justifying sex with their daughters as God himself set the example by impregnating his daughter Mary.

    11. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget that depression and suicide attempts among the women and teens in these communities is high.

    12. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget that women often live in poverty and if they work, it is frequently under slave-like conditions, working for little or no pay but giving it to the “building of the kingdom” which is run by men.

    13. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we cannot know that many consider polygamy a legal form of human trafficking, and we must forget that women who escape almost always have post-traumatic stress disorder at levels akin to torture.

    14. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget about the inter-family politics and rivalries, sister-wife cruelty, psychological manipulations, and intimacy needs of the wives that are not met.

    15. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must ignore the power of religious fundamentalism and the ability of cult mind-control and spiritual blackmail to impair proper decision-making.

    16. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must not know that women can be “reassigned” to another husband at the whim of the prophet and will be required to share their bodies to consummate those “marriages” accordingly.

    _____________________________________

    Consent achieved through pressure, coercion, or threats is also not considered voluntary consent. Sexual activity obtained through involuntary consent (or coercion) is against the law.

    _____________________________________

    17. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must ignore that fact that people immersed in a culture with abnormal beliefs, abusive practices or deviant behaviors will find the abnormal and deviant to be normal and acceptable.

    18. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for women, and in order to justify the decriminalization of polygamy as a “victimless” crime between consenting adults, we must forget it objectifies women like prostitution, and we must not know the empirical evidence illustrating that when prostitution is legalized or decriminalized, organized crime grows, victims get overlooked, and the conditions for abuse and violence gets worse, not better.

    19. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for women and in order to justify the decriminalization of polygamy as a “victimless” crime between consenting adults, we must forget that women are commanded to continually bear children, that their bodies are vessels to be worn out in childbirth.

    ::a victim cannot legally consent to legally prohibited conduct::

    20. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for women, we must forget that the women who escape polygamy almost invariable refer to their time in the “lifestyle” as having been enslaved, and that even without “force,” enslavement or human trafficking can be achieved through psychological coercion and spiritual extortion.

    21. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for women, we must forget that there is no such thing as consent to being trafficked.

    22. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for women, we must disregard the law, superseding it with a personal opinion that “because a woman was over 18”, she must have been able to consent to the felony committed against her, therefore she could not be a victim and no crime was committed.

    23. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for women in Utah and in order to justify the decriminalization of polygamy as a “victimless” crime between consenting adults, we must forget that polygamy is a felony and is expressly outlawed by the Utah constitution.

    24. In order to view the felony of polygamy as a free religious choice for women, we must forget that religion can not be used as a defense and that the Utah Supreme Court ruled that “the protections enshrined in the federal constitution, as well as our state constitution, guaranteeing the free exercise of religion and conscience … do not shield polygamous practices from state prosecution.”

    25. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for women, we must agree that protecting freedom of religion trumps crimes committed by those in ecclesiastical/fiduciary positions of trust, even when they issue terroristic threats to the woman’s eternal well-being if they do not subjugate themselves to the desires of the fiduciary spiritual advisor. This includes the requirement to consent to a felony being committed against them.

    —————————

    Under state law, a prisoner cannot consent to sexual relations with a jailer or someone else who controls the conditions of the prisoner’s confinement.

    How then is it possible for a woman to consent to have sexual relations with someone who they believe controls the conditions of their eternal life?

  177. RIH

    “Catholic priest do children. Christians discriminate against gays. Muslims fly planes into buildings”

    Wow – that paints with such a broad stroke – kind of like saying “Mormons are polygamists”.

  178. S

    Excellent post – great find!

    THX

    Maybe Blogo can give us his side of the coin. Surely there is someone who thinks they can refute those facts.

  179. I believe we should save this “list” for future reference – along with the “other” list, of course.

  180. Ain’t really any facts to refute. As to opinions the author is more the happy to have his while I’ll retain mine.

  181. Evil exists. All around us.

  182. Ron,

    That’s part of the reason that I call myself a non-dogmatic monotheist. I believe in God the Creator; I believe that Spirit is active in our lives; but when I examine any of the organized religions what I see is the words and actions of men. There are really wonderful things that Jesus said (as written down by his followers generations after he was gone) and some that I don’t agree with and some that frankly don’t make any sense. I think the best thing to do when it comes to religion is to remain silent or just to say “I don’t know, but I’m doing the best that I can.”.

  183. More Whacka – Doodles from Utah, rape and incest.

    ———————–

    “Harman and Dalton are the two top members of the Church of the Firstborn of the General Assembly of Heaven. Dalton is the founder and leader.

    “He was saying he was The Holy Ghost in the flesh, and I didn’t believe that. I found that hard to believe,” said Cynthia Dalton, daughter of Terrill Dalton.

    Cynthia Dalton is now 20. She came to KSL, giving up the privacy a rape victim is normally accorded, because she wants her father prosecuted. She claims he insisted she have sex with Harman when she was 15 years old.

    “My dad comes up to me and goes, ‘You’ve got to do this, this is what the Lord wants. You do this, you sleep with Geody, you’ll get great blessings bestowed upon you,'” she said.

    Cynthia Dalton says she resisted and then gave in to Harman. A few days later, her father followed suit.

    “And he’s like, ‘The Lord says me and you need to have sex. We need to have sex three times and after the third time you’ll have great blessings bestowed upon your head,'” she said.”

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12057437

  184. Al

    Refute #1

    I just posted a link showing another stupid plyg mo-lester using this trick to gang rape his own daughter.

    “1. In order to view polygamy as a free choice for adult women, we must forget that women who agree to polygamy believe it will earn them celestial rewards and they fear eternal damnation if they resist.”

    ==============

    ““And he’s like, ‘The Lord says me and you need to have sex. We need to have sex three times and after the third time you’ll have great blessings bestowed upon your head,’” she said.””

  185. “Ain’t really any facts to refute. As to opinions the author is more the happy to have his while I’ll retain mine.”

    There are plenty of facts Al, you’ve just refused to look at them. S. has linked study after study after study of facts. You have nothing to refute the facts in those studies with so you declare them non-existant and attempt to dismiss the conclusions drawn as “opinion”. What a cowardly cop out and deceitful too.

  186. Thats right Rebeckah!

  187. Betty

    I’m not anti-religious. I get a little annoyed with the “no true scottsman” fallacy when used about religion.

    The “you’re not a true Christian” argument falls more than a little flat on me. Religion clearly can serve as a way to encourage folks to behave well. However, I can take the Bible and justify stoning adulterers, killing my kid if he talks back or various other asinine behaviors. Not only that then I can argue that you folks that don’t believe in stoning are “not true Christians.”

  188. Link above

    “Lt. Don Hutson with the Unified Police Department said, “Unlawful sexual intercourse was required of this young lady as part of the ceremony of the church.”

    KSL followed the group when they left Utah last year. They moved from Magna to Pocatello and later to Fromberg, Mont., where Harman is now under arrest. Terrell Dalton has vanished.

    Detectives investigated the alleged rapes several years ago, but back then Cynthia denied it happened.

    “This has been several years later and she is an adult now. She felt more comfortable in disclosing and gave some very good disclosure in connection to the incident,” Hutson said.

    “I would like to see my father go behind bars because I don’t want to see him ruin any other young woman’s life,” Cynthia Dalton said.”

  189. Ron

    Problem is, Jesus (yanno the one who is Christ) never said to go stone anyone or have a harem. Or sacrafice your goat.

    The issue with the LDS is, they now claim to be Christian on one hand, and then say they are the only way on the other. They cant have it both ways. Which way do you think they really fall?

  190. Ron,

    Plus, for extra bonus points, it does or should have nothing to do with due process of the law.

  191. BTW I dont think fundies make any attempt to align themselves with Christianity, in fact, if you have read Streets rants on TBM, you know how they feel about others outside their own little cult.

  192. meme

    “Evil” is a pretty relative term. Clearly inexcusable inhumanity exists.

    The “problem of evil” is a very good argument against the existence of an all knowing and all powerful God.

    Again going back to the Bible, I can argue very persuasively that God is the author of evil.

  193. There are plenty of facts Al, you’ve just refused to look at them. S. has linked study after study after study of facts. You have nothing to refute the facts in those studies with so you declare them non-existant and attempt to dismiss the conclusions drawn as “opinion”. What a cowardly cop out and deceitful too.

    Rebeckah said this on August 19, 2010 at 9:48 AM
    ================================================================
    Yes Rebeckah, every peer reviewed study to date has indicated that religious polygyny is NOT in the best interests of the mental health and well being of women – yet those who support religious polygyny continue to live in denial. Most religious
    polygyny supporters will not even read those research studies –
    they simply dismiss the research out of hand because the data collides with their opinions.

  194. Alleged incest rapist Terrill Dalton’s website

    His first mate is in jail on 250,000 bail and Dalton is on the run ALA Warren Jeffs style

    http://thefirstborn.org/Firstborn/revelationworld.html

  195. Ron –
    Regarding my comments, I will respond in brief as I am busy –
    Since its inception, the Christian religion has championed MONOGAMY as a virtue. MONOGAMY is clearly taught as the only legitimate form of marriage by Christ and the apostles – making Christianity the only one of the three monotheistic Abrahamic religious traditions which does so.
    When a group or an individual calls itself “Christian” and they try to lead others to believe that the Christian religion supports POLYGAMY as a legitimate form of marriage, I will quote Scriptural texts to refute them. In doing so I believe that perhaps some innocent and uninformed person of the Christian faith may be rescued from an abusive cult situation. That is my sole motivation.
    I will return later this evening.

  196. Ignoring polygamy for a moment, but looking only at the definition of salvation, I think that the LDS and FLDS are not strictly Christian, any more than I am strictly Christian. Since this topic of Jesus as savior is so central to the definition of “Christian”, I have to agree that the LDS and FLDS are not Christian. Solely on the statement that a woman is not saved unless her husband calls her through “the veil” is to deny the statement of Christ as savior. That’s heresy, by definition, IMHO.

    Not that one is right and another is wrong, but they certainly are not the same thing.

  197. Salvation according to Christ is personal , one on one interspiritual happening. Its not like anyone else is there, no one just says okay, salvation is done. No can save you for you!!.. if you understand what Im saying. Not your husband, your mom or dad, a preacher,, water, anything, its something that happens with in your spirit. AND, I might add, God Knows who is saved and who isn’t.

  198. There are plenty of facts Al, you’ve just refused to look at them. S. has linked study after study after study of facts.
    ——————————————–
    There may or may not be plenty of facts. However, that latest study shown by S. isn’t one of them. Well, except the fact that polygamy is illegal. Not to worry, there is no law against concubines or mistresses so we are all good.

  199. Where is that fred guy when we need him?

  200. There may or may not be plenty of facts. However, that latest study shown by S. isn’t one of them. Well, except the fact that polygamy is illegal. Not to worry, there is no law against concubines or mistresses so we are all good.
    ================================================================
    That wasn’t a study that I posted, it was an article by John Llewelyn. Are you paying attention ?

  201. Article is fine. I have no problem with that. It’s still based upon opinion not facts other the polygamy is currently illegal.

  202. S

    I read an article from the Canadian litigation. The history and tradition of monogamy in Western society comes from ancient Greece. Interestingly, the concept of monogamy went hand in hand with the Greek concept of democracy.

    Monogamy was adopted by the Romans after their absorption of Greece. It was accepted in the Roman empire long before the rise of Christianity.

    As to it being the “tradition” of the Christian church, I’d imagine that’s the case since modern Christianity developed mostly from the Greek speaking areas of the Roman empire.

    However, tradition does not make it canon. Martin Luther specifically said he could not condemn someone who practiced polygamy. His contemporary John Calvin however said that marriage was between one man and one woman and had that canonized in his Westminster confession.

    I do agree that to the extent you’re trying to work with someone and they approach the world with a scriptural viewpoint, that quoting scripture is probably a good way to talk with them.

    On the other hand, arguing with hard core zealots over scripture seems like a pointless exercise that is best avoided.

  203. Which is why, most of the time, we talk about law. Yes its true, 10 different people can pull 10 different beliefs out of the bible – that said, Jesus never endorsed polygamy or animal sacrifice.

    There are people who believe Jesus was married, and then there are people who think LSD helps them get through the day.

    One would think, if Jesus endorsed polygamy he would have actually endorsed it.

  204. Stamp

    I’m with you. I stick to what Jesus endorsed.

    So, as a true disciple I hate my father and mother. Really, I simply loathe them.

    Luke 14:26

  205. Context Ron, context!

    ” So here in Lk. 14:26 Jesus isn’t teaching contempt, animosity, hostility or any offensive attitude or deed.

    The idea is, we are to love Christ MORE than we love our own family, and even our own self! Loving the Lord more than parents … more than children … more than brothers and sisters … EVEN MORE THAN OUR OWN LIVES — that is absolutely essential, if you want to become a disciple of Christ.

    Does this require that we abandon family? Our answer to the first question is helpful in dealing with this. Jesus is not attempting to break up families; tear up marriages or start a war between brothers and sisters; this is not teaching that after you dry off from your baptism, you go home, pack and leave!!

    It does mean you do whatever is necessary to be loyal to Christ; it means HE COMES FIRST; it means your allegiance and obedience to Him is not just a part of your life – IT IS YOUR LIFE.”

    http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-luke-14-26.htm

  206. However, tradition does not make it canon. Martin Luther specifically said he could not condemn someone who practiced polygamy. His contemporary John Calvin however said that marriage was between one man and one woman and had that canonized in his Westminster confession….as per Ron in Houston.
    ===================================================================
    That is Martin Luther’s opinion of Scripture, shared by NO ONE else with any standing. Catholicism predates Luther and Catholic tradition NEVER endorsed polygamy – polygamy was condemned and punished in the ancient church and in Catholic tradition. I will place a link shortly.

  207. Stamp

    I’m with you. I stick to what Jesus endorsed.

    So, as a true disciple I hate my father and mother. Really, I simply loathe them.

    Luke 14:26

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Ron,
    The correct translation is not to hate, but to love less.

  208. Read this article :
    http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Instone-Brewer/prepub/Jesus%20on%20Monogamy.pdf

  209. The point of the article is this – and it is very subtle – you must understand that in Judaism of the New Testament era, there were two rabbinical camps – those who approved of polygamy (Shammai faction) and those who did not.(Hillel faction)
    The rallying cry of those rabbis of the New Testament era who did NOT believe in polygamy was to quote the Genesis text as follows “the TWO shall become one flesh” inserting the word “two” from an alternate less popular translation of the Torah.
    Those rabbis of the New Testament era who DID believe polygamy was acceptable quoted the text in Genesis as “they became one flesh”
    Everyone who heard Jesus speak at the time knew exactly what he meant when he inserted the word TWO into the text, quoting the less frequently used translation of the Torah – he was making a statement AGAINST polygamy.

  210. Opinions of the Early Church Fathers on Polygamy : Note that it is documented that St. Thomas taught the Persians converts to abandon polygamy. He was one of the 12 apostles.

    http://www.christian-thinktank.com/polygame.htm

  211. sorry here is the link :

    http://www.christian-thinktank.com/polygame.html

  212. Read about opinions of the early church fathers on polygamy, marriage, and divorce

    http://bible.org/article/divorce-teachings-early-church

  213. You might also find this debate on the topic to be of interest :

    http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2006/09/polygamy-is-condemned-by-scripture.html

  214. S, If you keep messing with this subject you will end up converting yourself like Paul of old who although he was an enemy of Christians eventually saw the light. In spite of all your findings the truth of it will become self evident. I can see it happening already. Leave it alone; quit while you sill can in good conscience.

  215. “Article is fine. I have no problem with that. It’s still based upon opinion not facts other the polygamy is currently illegal.”

    I haven’t read the article because I don’t have PDF abilities at the moment. However, S. has posted at least 6 different links to STUDIES showing the negative impact of polygamy on women and children — you have ignored each and every one. Your insistence that there is no data is a bald faced lie. You may not have looked at the FACTS but they’ve been presented to you many times.

    Polygamy hurts women. It makes them more prone to be insecure, depressed and suffer mental illnesses. It increases domestic violence. It cheapens women as they are easily replaced by a foolish, young thing who has bought into the propaganda and not matured enough, nor learned enough, to make informed choices for herself and any children she might have. You saying there is no data (or facts) does not make it so. In facts hundreds, if not thousands, of women and children harmed by polygamy have revealed to others the damage done to them — and researchers have gathered it up and presented it to the world at large. The fact that you simply ignore the evidence presented to you and then lie about its existence leads me to believe you really despise women.

  216. From KCSG TV

    “Officials in Texas now want Jeffs and four unnamed men to go on trial over the sexual assault of girls under the age of 17. The indictment lodged in 2008 accuses Jeffs of assaulting a child in January 2005.”

    Are they referring to the men still awaiting trial or are these new men?

  217. Blogogre,
    I already have converted to Christianity,quite some time ago, and in good conscience. It is you that I am concerned about.

  218. Stamp

    So says you. I don’t disagree where you end up with your scriptural twistings, but the point is that you have done your own unique twistings to arrive at your particular context.

    S.

    Apologists want to say that the Greek word “miseo” means to “love less.” However, every modern English translation uses the word “hate.” The translators of the NIV weren’t exactly seularists. Show me a modern English translation where the word “miseo” is translated as “love less” than I’ll buy that argument. Otherwise it’s simply an apologist view.

  219. Honestly this is another example, believers don’t want to accept their facts as they are dealt. If it doesn’t fit with your worldview then you must try to change or ignore facts to make them fit so that you’re comfortable.

    Jesus was a radical. I have no doubt he used the word “hate.” In my mind, he was trying to shock folks. It was so contrary to the Jewish concept of “honor thy father and thy mother” that it was the radical slap on the fact of his followers.

    However, to try to deny or change the fact that the word perhaps doesn’t mean “hate” is to try to fit reality to your worldview.

  220. Sure Ron, read the original Greek, it is translated as “regard as inferior” from Koine Greek here : If the text does not appear in Greek, click the Greek concordance.

    http://biblos.com/luke/14-26.htm

  221. Read the Greek text here :

    http://biblos.com/luke/14-26.htm

  222. The Word Bible does not translate miseo as hate : it is translated as regard less :

    http://worldebible.com/luke/14.htm

  223. and miseo is translated as “regard as inferior” here translated from the original Greek :

    http://biblos.com/luke/14-26.htm

  224. That is Martin Luther’s opinion of Scripture, shared by NO ONE else with any standing. Catholicism predates Luther and Catholic tradition NEVER endorsed polygamy – polygamy was condemned and punished in the ancient church and in Catholic tradition. I will place a link shortly.
    ——-

    “with any standing”… ??

    Very interesting you would make this comment in light of where I have been reading of late. It makes this current secular prejudice especially poignant.

    Ellen White: The Great Controversy – Luther Before the Diet.
    http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc8.html
    Chapter 11 is very interesting as well. The threat from within; from the overzealous false prophets of the “fundamentalists” was as much or more of a challenge as the direct assault.

    I realize that the tenants of LDS fundamentals can be arguably complex (and not just polygamy) but the “great controversy” is fundamentally the same. At least I found it striking.

    Ron. The semantics of the definition or linguistics of “hate” is straining at the Gnat. (not that I disagree with you) The meaning is clear enough, that you must be willing to forsake everything, including family an reputation for the sake of truth. Hate for your parents doesn’t necessarily make that qualification.

  225. Correction: It was Chapter 10 that addresses the false prophets.

    “One of these prophets claimed to have been instructed by the angel Gabriel. A student who united with him forsook his studies, declaring that he had been endowed by God Himself with wisdom to expound His word. Others who were naturally inclined to fanaticism united with them. The proceedings of these enthusiasts created no little excitement.

    The preaching of Luther had aroused the people everywhere to feel the necessity of reform, and now some really honest persons were misled by the pretensions of the new prophets. “

  226. Luther (and subsequently the Anabaptists) supported polygamy as being acceptable – never mandatory. The overwhelming majority of Christians did not agree with them, and it should be noted that the early church fathers did NOT support polygamy, nor did the Apostles, nor Christ. For 15 centuries before the arrival of Luther, polygamy was punishable in the Church – men were required to be “prostrators” for three years if they engaged in polygamy.
    There certainly is NO teaching which states that polygamy is necessary for salvation or exaltation in the New Testament anywhere.

  227. Proud,

    Eric Nichols has been seen going into the building where the impaneled Grand Jury was meeting in Schliecher County.

    Unnamed make me think their may be more indictments coming down.
    Remember on the first go round they announced the indictments, but didn’t release the names and actual charges for some time?

  228. their + there. There, now I’ll sue myself and answer me nothing.

    http://www.kcsg.com/view/full_story/9185225/article-Jeffs-Hearing-in-Utah-District-Court-Continued-Indefinitely?instance=home_stories6

  229. This thread seems to have turned to a religious spouting of scripture today.
    Holy cows.

  230. Ron

    Oh there are likely people out there who take it literally, just like you want to.

    So show us the passage where the LDS or FLDS church is the one true church?

    Or that you need 3 wives to get into the Celestial Kingdom, or that women need a husband to save them.

    Its not there. Even a teensy bit, not even in any context whatsovever.

  231. S

    I’m not going to argue the fact that there is a level of subtlety to the word “miseo.” However, the NIV didn’t come out until the 1970’s and was translated by supposedly some of the best scholars. They specifically rejected the translation you’re advocating and chose the English word “hate.”

    Personally, I find it wonderful that Jesus chose that word. It was shocking and I think designed to get people out of their comfort zones. I think that effect is shown by people trying to dance around that word.

    To me, it reinforces that folks chose to read the Bible from a world view. Anyway as the anon said perhaps we’re getting way, way too focused on scripture.

  232. Utah plyg Holy Ghost and alleged incest rapist Terril Dalton Arrested:

    “Terrill Dalton, 43, was arrested on a warrant issued by authorities in Salt Lake City on two counts of first-degree rape. Dalton is the president of the Holy Ghost of the Church of the Firstborn of the General Assembly of Heaven, a group of former Mormons who fled Utah last year after federal authorities raided their headquarters.

    On Wednesday, the U.S. Marshals Service went to the church’s new headquarters near Fromberg looking for Dalton and Geody Harman, who describes himself as First Counsel of the church.”

    http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_5a7d4454-ac11-11df-a034-001cc4c03286.html

  233. Stamp

    Are you kidding? Enough evil can be justified with the Christian Bible. Throw in the Book of Mormon and you’ve got a recipe for evil that many wanna be prophets can use to inflict pain on others.

  234. Looks like McClusky and Welch got nabbed too.

    Raising Arizona?

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/19/arizona-fugitives-john-mccluskey-casslyn-welch-caught/

  235. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion

    Interesting reading. Imagine, communal theocracy and polygamy being linked! The leader claimed to be the successor of King David, he claimed absolute power over his new “Zion” and he planned conquest of the world. They believed that violence against unbelievers was morally justified. The movement lasted less than three years and the leader was beheaded and his genitals were nailed to the city gate. His chief supporters, three men, were tortured in the public square and their dead bodies displayed in cages hung from the cathedral spire. The Mennonites spring from this branch of Anabaptists, but they abandoned both violence and polygamy.

  236. S.
    I understand the impulse to argue theology as a means of communicating with those who are polygamists due to religious theology. However, quoting New Testament scriptures etc. won’t budge those believers, because their religious scripture are the D&C.

  237. P.S.

    S.

    It is kind of like the Civil War – which is the greater founding document the Declaration of Independence (Abe Lincoln) or the Constitution (the South).

    If you can not agree on the founding document then quotations from one or the other are not going to sway any one.

    I personally think that hammering home the legal point of view is the only viable route….

    If those who are committed polygamists can put forward a PR campaign that extends beyond “religious right” and produces studies that counter act the studies that you have posted then they might get somewhere with the general public, and, hence, the laws.

  238. Stamp,
    thanks for posting the link on Terril Dalton.

    I try not to make comments on personal characteristics and I do realize that my drivers license makes me look like a drug runner….but honestly this guy looks like the only way he could “get some” is by declaring himself the savior.

    OK I will now go and practice what I preach for the rest of the day…..

  239. Gods laws? Laws of the Land? Can hardly talk about one without talking about the other when it comes to these stories.

    What confuses me is that while the arguement is that they must follow Gods Law (in their mind) that they break how many other rules while trying to practice Polygamy?

    http://scriptures.lds.org/gs/l/11

    One of the really big things is did those in the LDS Church back John Taylors dream/vision and support the idea that they would help those in the ShortCreek area as promised by John Taylor? If so.. there would be major confusion until that matter is cleared up.

    John Taylor went into hiding from the Govt. not from the LDS Church. He was considered President of the Church until the day he died (even though they had someone else doing the daily stuff) To this very day you will see statues of John Taylor thru out Utah.

    It wasn’t until just recently that the LDS Church talked about it’s role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. maybe they will soon address the issue of Polygamy and John Taylors role and the splinter groups.

  240. Walton

    Honestly, at this stage do you really expect things to make sense?

  241. However, quoting New Testament scriptures etc. won’t budge those believers, because their religious scripture are the D&C.

    Well, not only that their view is that you don’t understand what those words mean despite how clear they may seem. After all, you are one of those “gentiles.”

  242. Ron I really do think that by now some of this should be making sense.

    I understand the confusion with the LDS/FLDS and John Taylor.

    I don’t understand how this whole thing has gotten so out of hand concerning the abuse of people/state funding/federal funding and all the other crimes that have been allowed to go on.

  243. http://www.hotm.tv/

    Warch show 228, August 10, 2010

  244. I could be wrong, but Christ gave us the two commandments that are the MOST important of all the commandments, Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and Love thy neighbor as thyself.
    Christ also said to honor your father and mother.
    As christians we were instructed to hate the world, (not the people in it, but the world itself , and live as Christ,, )

  245. Leroy has dropped his appeal on his conviction for the time being and is now appealing the judge denying him being indigent.

    http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/pdfOpinion.asp?OpinionID=19467

  246. Granny dances with kittehs on the head of a pin!

  247. For those who want to read more of Ogden Kraut’s scriptures on Mormon Fundy marriages –

    http://www.ogdenkraut.com/Marriage%20Covenant.htm

  248. This is interesting:

    http://utahlegals.com/notice.php?id=59331

  249. And also this:

    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/state/story/Hildale-councilmen-hike-tax-accused-of-not-paying/Y6GlHd8CYEafTo7Qo6XrQw.cspx

  250. ah, “The Tragedy of Mixed Marriage”.

    Man, that’s hard to read.

  251. That Uzona Home School default notice has the “truth-prevailing” Donald Richter as one of the defendants.

    Too funny!

  252. Betty, You seem to keep saying things that make sense. I’m sure it’s just an accident.

  253. That was my first thought too Anon @ 5:02.

  254. My dear young people of Zion, let me beseech you to listen to one who desires only your good. I have traveled thirteen years, have lived among many classes of people, been in their domestic circles, seen happy and unhappy families, and have made a constant study of the causes of both, and I am thoroughly convinced that principle should always precede love. Not that love is unessential, for without it there can be no happiness, but love will follow principle. (by Ogden Krout)

    =========

    It took me a long time to see through this fallacy. In truth it is just opposite — principle will (must)follow love. Let go of the godforsaken leverage already. If the proponents of polygamy ever figured this one out, the game would change. This is the very reason why samesex is upstaging them on the legal scene.

  255. Bring ’em on!

    Jailers ready for Jeffs
    By Matthew Waller
    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/aug/20/jailers-ready-for-jeffs/

  256. The photo found in this link is shocking. Please be advised.

    Officials say the couple refuses to feed the child anything other than lettuce and watermelon, believing he is “a religious prophet.” Christopher Fink reportedly believes anything other than starchless fruit, vegetables and leafy greens could contaminate the child.

    David weighed only 16 pounds when he was taken from his parents and rushed to Primary Children’s Medical Center in Salt Lake City, officials said.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/tlc/tlc11.html

  257. I wish we could stop religious arguments or save them into a different file. We never will convince each other to be right only the holy spirit can pout that into our hearts and souls.
    Also, I come to this board to see facts in regards to the FLDS ( Warrenite division), about the only site where one can find so much proof

  258. But they got pleas, not explanations for Christopher Fink’s behavior.

    “I’d say he was misled, deceived — even though it may be his own self-deception,” Earl Fink said of his son’s beliefs.

    “He felt David was a prophet,” Kyndra Fink’s father, Dr. Dewain Lee, a Pocatello, Idaho, chiropractor, said yesterday.

    Two days after Christmas 1996, Kyndra Fink gave birth to the child unceremoniously on the kitchen floor of an apartment, with her husband attending. Then, they tried to keep the baby spiritually pure, denying him anything but fruits, starchless vegetables and leafy greens.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19981001abduct6.asp

  259. OOps, I pressed the ‘submit’ button too early 🙂
    What I meant to say is that this blog is a wonderful site to study and find the legal facts that the FLDS is struggling with. Texas is proceeding as other States should have long ago. Maybe than we could have saved a lot of people a lot of grief.

  260. “It didn’t start with Warren Jeffs and it won’t end with Warren Jeffs”

    There is so much proof to be seen concerning the abuses and law-breaking of these cults that many people can see it yet those within can’t. 😦

    Protecting the innocent is very much a part of the laws of the land but imo Gods Law in any book.

  261. Anon @ 3:42 you might find this interesting: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=7026001&PIpi=9650686

    Spreading the word even from the grave.

  262. “Betty, You seem to keep saying things that make sense. I’m sure it’s just an accident”

    Sorry, Blogogre. It won’t happen again, I assure you. 8^).

  263. Wow, and then Blogogre makes sense! Oh, goody. Are we taking turns?

  264. Jeffs remains incarcerated in the mental health unit of the Utah State Prison in Draper, Utah, while awaiting a hearing….
    ============================================================

    Anyone know what he is receiving psychiatric treatment for ?

  265. sltrib reports that the officials of the twin cities have asked for Lindberg to recuse herself because she has been exerting “uncommon” oversite of the UEP.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50144891-76/trust-case-judge-lindberg.html.csp

  266. It took me a long time to see through this fallacy. In truth it is just opposite — principle will (must)follow love….

    Glad to hear you say that

  267. It’s a start.

  268. C-M said “I wish we could stop religious arguments or save them into a different file.”

    C-M this is to much fun…..

    http://www.sksm.edu/research/papers/polygamy.pdf

    On July 23, 1534, Jan van Leyden (anabaptist) introduced polygamy to the city of Münster. The traditional story of the introduction of polygamy in Münster is that van Leyden introduced polygamy to satisfy his lust for Matthijs’ wife Divara.[4] There are also stories that tell of van Leyden being seen sneaking into the rooms of a woman other than his wife and introducing polygamy to legitimate his actions.

    Adding to the evidence suggesting that van Leyden’s personal desires were at play is the fact that he took more wives than any other citizen of Münster, eighteen. However, even if personal lust was a major motivating factor for van Leyden, he would not have been able to make this decree mandating polygamy without circumstances which reinforced his decree.

    One of the most important social factors leading to the introduction of polygamy was the imbalance between numbers of men and women in the city of Münster after the ejection of those who refused baptism.

    Estimates are that in 1534, almost three-quarters of the adult population of Münster was female. Many women who had lived in Münster prior to the expulsion of those who refused to submit to adult baptism were left when their husbands were expelled from the city. (sound familiar)

    It appears that the women were not forcibly expelled with the men. Their husbands often left them in Münster with their children to maintain the household and businesses until the men were able to return.

    lthough some of these women may have had sympathies with the Anabaptists, many of them are likely to have desired the return of exiled men. These women will have been seen as threats to the stability of the Anabaptist control of Münster.

    The mere fact that there were so many women in Münster compared to the number of men suggested that roles for women needed to be adjusted.

    The assumption that a woman would be her father’s until
    she became her father’s responsibility could not be applied to women without fathers or husbands in the city.

    Married women whose father’s remained in the city after their husbands were exiled were not sent back to their father’s homes.

    Something was going to shift in the role women played in society. The situation could, for instance, have turned into a moment in history when women were granted additional rights and responsibilities in society. But, with Jan van Leyden’s theology guiding the city, greater freedom for women was not in the cards.

    A Bible verse comes to mind…

    Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

  269. In the days of the Reformation its enemies charged all the evils of fanaticism upon the very ones who were laboring most earnestly against it. A similar course was pursued by the opposers of the advent movement. And not content with misrepresenting and exaggerating the errors of extremists and fanatics, they circulated unfavorable reports that had not the slightest semblance of truth. These persons were actuated by prejudice and hatred. Their peace was disturbed by the proclamation of Christ at the door. They feared it might be true, yet hoped it was not, and this was the secret of their warfare against Adventists and their faith.

    The fact that a few fanatics worked their way into the ranks of Adventists is no more reason to decide that the movement was not of God than was the presence of fanatics and deceivers in the church in Paul’s or Luther’s day a sufficient excuse for condemning their work. Let the people of God arouse out of sleep and begin in earnest the work of repentance and reformation; let them search the Scriptures to learn the truth as it is in Jesus; let them make an entire consecration to God, and evidence will not be wanting that Satan is still active and vigilant. With all possible deception he will manifest his power, calling to his aid all the fallen angels of his realm.

    [ ~ from Ellen G White/The Great Controversy ]

  270. S – I find it interesting that you value reason and research so much, and you post endless links to scientific studies here in the hope that people will see how their beliefs create real damage to peoples lives, yet you yourself believe a strange religious story that defies rational thought (Christianity, Christ rose from the dead etc) without any scientific research or proof to back it up.

    I’m not saying you are wrong, or trying to take away the value of your faith, I just find it interesting that faith can triumph over rationalism even in someone like you who values evidence based research so much.

  271. I don’t believe that the world we live in came about as an accident.
    That would involve too many coincidences.

  272. S. I don’t believe that the world we live in came about as an accident.
    That would involve too many coincidences.

    ——————————–

    Yes, in a way it is still a kind of faith to believe that we and our world and everything in it are only a result of random molecular attachments.

  273. S., Warren has previously shown behaviors that are dangerous to himself. For example, excessive kneeling, refusal of food – etc.

    That is why he is in a maximum security psychiatric unit as opposed to the general population.

  274. I might add, the disruptive behavior is probably on the advise of his attorney. Sociopaths are generally not self destructive, as you know.

    However, baby-rapers don’t last long in the general population.

  275. van der Leyden’s 18 wives also need to be taken in context to see how excessive it was. He was only in power for a little more than a year; and he was a 24 year old tailor when he came to Munster from Holland. His second in command was a baker. Why did he come there from Holland? Well, Holland was occupied by Catholic Spain, which was at the height of the Inquisition at the time. Not a fun place to be, even if you were not Protestant.

    So, in brief, he had an average of more than one new woman per month for the time of his control of the city. The city was under siege during most of that year and a half by the Bishop who had been ousted. Although he proclaimed the belief that he was a second Gideon and would be victorious in battle, on some level he had to have known that he stood a very poor chance of long term survival. I suspect that it was not just the feelings of the Bishop which caused his privates to be nailed to the town gate; sexual appetite was probably not his only excess.

    The whole story, to me, is similar to a Jim Jones or Branch Davidian story, indicating that Americans did not invent cults.

  276. Blogo

    Two points for that observation, I guess I am the third to recognize it

    “It took me a long time to see through this fallacy. In truth it is just opposite — principle will (must)follow love. Let go of the godforsaken leverage already. If the proponents of polygamy ever figured this one out, the game would change. This is the very reason why samesex is upstaging them on the legal scene.”

    —————–

    However, in the FLDS and many, or perhaps most, polygamist societies, love isnt an equation…. They are Patriarchal in nature and women are assigned or otherwise told what to do.

    In the FLDS, the women rely on their Priesthood husbands for salvation yet ultimately belong to the Prophet.

    So, any issue with daddy, he is gone, and the women and children get shuttled to some other man, or has also happened in the FLDS, over and over again.

    This smacks of white slavery, with children caught in the crosshairs. IMHO this kind of behavior will outrage society enough, that polygamy (as it is too often practiced) stands no chance of American society acceptance.

    They wont be able to ride on the legal coattails of same sex marriage.

  277. BTW little David Fink and his newborn brother Elijah were rescued from the parents up in Montana. The brother was born in the woods, while David born on the kitchen floor back home.

    I havent been able to find out the current status of David or the parents.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/tlc/tlc12.html

  278. Melissa

    What, Christians should ignore history, society, data and statistics – and how twisted theology from various cults affects themselves and others?

    Why must those two positions be mutually exclusive?

  279. Fink resolution, out with a handslap:

    “Man Gets 18 Months For Kidnapping Associated Press, April 11, 2000 SALT LAKE CITY (AP) – A man who became the subject of a nationwide manhunt when he and his wife kidnapped their malnourished son from a hospital has been sentenced to 18 months in prison.

    Christopher and Kyndra Fink were accused of starving their son, David, for religious reasons.

    Authorities said the pair believed the child was the “Christ child” and fed him only watermelon and lettuce to keep him pure. The Finks – now divorced – sparked a nationwide manhunt in 1998 when they took their 21-month-old boy from a Utah hospital, where he had been taken by relatives for treatment of severe malnutrition.

    Police found the couple 16 days later, living in a tent in the mountains of Montana. Fink pleaded guilty to child abuse and attempted aggravated assault for his part in his son’s malnourishment and kidnapping. He was given credit for 404 days already served, so his remaining sentence will be about five months.

    Judge Roger Bean also ordered Fink to take any necessary medication to deal with a possible “major thought disorder.” Fink’s former wife is scheduled for sentencing April 24.

    Prosecutors have agreed to recommend no more than 90 days in jail. The couple’s two children remain in foster care. ”

    http://www.angelfire.com/mt2/thunder/18months.html

  280. This guy sure gets picked up a lot.

    JESSOP, JAYSON SMITH
    Birth Date: 10/06/80
    Address : 11162 S REDWOOD RD, South Jordan, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    21:43:20 08/20/10 Williams, Ean WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    COMMITMENT COMMITMENT-COURT ORDE AM 5DIS 0.00 [No Payments Made]

  281. The FLDS are just a pimple on the butt of humanity.

    Now Islamic faith and Jihad is a big zit on humanity’s forehead and it all began w/polygamy.

    The big picture is being played out on our TV news daily between Muslims and Jews/Christians.

    Like S. said “I don’t believe that the world we live in came about as an accident. That would involve too many coincidences.”

    As far as I am concern this focus on polygamy is just another prophecy fulfilled and the world rolling on to the “destruction” (favorite word of Warren).

    Oh, by the way

    EXCLUSIVE: Extradition hearing set for Warren Jeffs
    Reported by: Brent Hunsaker
    Last Update: 8/20 10:36 pm

    SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) – Warren Jeffs is a step closer to Texas. ABC 4 News has learned a court hearing on extradition to Texas will be held on Thursday, August 26 at 1:00pm in the West Jordan courtroom of Judge Terry Christiansen.

    Jeffs is indicted in Texas on three counts: Sexual assault of a child, aggravated sexual assault of a child and bigamy.

  282. Judge Roger Bean also ordered Fink to take any necessary medication to deal with a possible “major thought disorder.”

    Major thought disorder = euphemism for schizophrenia

  283. Yes, I would say that Warren meets criteria for anti-social personality disorder.(sociopathy)

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000921.htm

  284. Brian Mitchell is also trying the mental disorder defense.

    Since there are so many out of Utah, it seems the zeal causes the disorder. Dont know if this has been vetted.

    Or is it the crazies veer into religious zeal? Why doesnt that happen in more populated states like CA or NY?

    Utah Fundies have way more than their fair share of whacka doodles.

  285. “Smart was found nine months after her kidnapping with Mitchell and his now estranged wife, Wanda Eileen Barzee. Barzee has already been convicted for her part in Smart’s kidnapping.

    After almost eight years of avoiding trial, Judge Kimball ruled in March that Mitchell is competent to stand trial.

    In October, Elizabeth Smart testified against Mitchell, and said that he Mitchell took her to camping site located just a few miles from her home. She said that both Mitchell and Barzee performed a mock marriage ceremony and that he raped her 3-4 times every day.”

    http://www.examiner.com/headlines-in-salt-lake-city/brian-david-mitchell-s-trial-date-set-for-november-1-elizabeth-smart-kidnapping-case

  286. 3 or 4 times every day o that poor child poor poor child

  287. Utah Fundie Terrill Dalton hounded by cops and the Secret Service before his eventual arrest for incestual rape:

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=7024344&nid=148

  288. BTW I dont think Brian Mitchell will ever leave prison a free man. And it wont be a particularly pleasant place for him either, not just because of his crimes but because of his angelic victim.

  289. From Brooke’s Blog:

    A Utah judge on Friday signed a warrant for the arrest of polygamous church leader Warren S. Jeffs on the Texas charges and set his initial appearance for Aug. 26. There is no bail for Jeffs.

    08-20-10 Judge ROBERT ADKINS assigned.

    08-20-10 Filed: Information

    08-20-10 Case filed

    08-20-10 Filed: From an Information.

    08-20-10 Judge TERRY CHRISTIANSEN assigned.

    08-20-10 Warrant ordered on: August 20, 2010 Warrant Num: 985210311 No Bail

    08-20-10 Notice – WARRANT for Case 101401820 ID 13196342

    08-20-10 Warrant issued on: August 20, 2010 Warrant Num: 985210311 No Bail Judge: MARK KOURIS

    Issue reason: Based on the probable cause statement.

    08-20-10 INITIAL APPEARANCE scheduled on August 26, 2010 at 01:00 PM in WJ Courtroom 37 with Judge CHRISTIANSEN.

  290. Not sure why 3 different Judges are named, but it appears that Warren will appear on August 26th in West Jordan in front of Judge Christiansen.

  291. Thats an arrest Warrant – on top of his extradition Warrant. Looks like Warren might be travelling again next week.

    Well, he seemed like he really wanted to spend a lot of time in Texas anyway, he just wont be staying in the gardners bed he had them build for him.

  292. Brent Hunsaker gives more details:

    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/state/story/EXCLUSIVE-Extradition-hearing-set-for-Warren-Jeffs/9Od4dd5bF06cpxyOxsdwaw.cspx

  293. Stamp, I think the arrest warrants are in connection with the extradition warrant. It’s tying it up in a neat little ball.

    Bet Warren’t sorry that he thought Eldorado was Zion and yeah, I doubt the gardner’s bed will be waiting for him at whatever jail he ends up in in Texas.

  294. Yes, another round of that recurring patriarchal plyg story, threatening women with damnation if they dont submit.

    —————————-

    “James Harmston’s letters to his youngest bride threaten fire and brimstone for her refusal to sleep with him. Not only would Rachael, 43 years his junior, have “a lonely miserable life” in this world for not going to his bed, but it would be far worse in the next.

    “Rachael, the facts are, whether you want to believe or not, the end is coming and judgment will be executed in severity, especially for those who have broken their covenants,” Mr Harmston wrote, adding: “For certain I will deal with you in the future eternity.”

    He signed himself “Your Husband, King and Priest”, and sent copies of his letters to five of his 18 wives, one of whom was Rachael’s mother, Pauline.”

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/tlc/tlc18.html

  295. “get out of Utah”.

    Seems like good advice for those who want to be free from this brand of crazy.

  296. HA HA Amazing similarities – only in OZ they let the cat out of the bag on welfare abuse.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=caf_1252486829

  297. can someone please explain to me why Mr Harmston is not in prison for what he did to Rachael ?

  298. Does he live in Utah? Cuz that would explain it.

  299. S, complaints were presented to Utah AG Shurtleff who refused to bring charges against Jim Harmston because Rachel was not under 18. Both Rachel and her mother told the AG that the “marriage” was against Rachel’s will, but still the AG would not bring rape charges against Harmston because Rachel was an adult instead of a child bride plural wife. Only in Utah!

  300. Sorry – here is the link to Doris Hanson’s program on the subject of Rachael Strong :

    http://www.whatloveisthis.tv/ep307.htm

  301. S

    THANK YOU for that link, I think it is a wonderful primer, I’m only half way through and its fascinating.

  302. Stamp –

    I don’t think being a Christian and being appalled at the abuses cults perpetuate have to be mutually exclusive.

    However, Christians accept a lot on faith – and it is usually important to their sense of self as a christian that they do so. And they base their lives and their behaviour around a set of beliefs that they accept on faith. So do fundamentalists, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists, Hindus – plenty of people all over the world, most of whom never hurt anyone. But people who live their life based on faith must understand how people can live more destructive lifestyles based on faith – cause when you take away the need for proof and logic and make decisions based entirely on faith, it leaves a lot of room for different people to interpret faith in different ways.

    It reminds me of a paragraph in Under The Banner of Heaven. It asks if the Lafferty brothers are to be considered mentally ill because they believed they received revelation from God, shouldn’t everyone who claimed to receive revelation from GOd, starting with Moses, be considered mentally ill? If not, who is to say whose conversation with God is true and valid? And if you truly believed God had told you to do something, and your and your families salvation, or the bringling about of the millenial reign of peace, were at stake, wouldn’t a rational person do what God told them?

    My point is that most people have a point that they would not cross for their faith, and that point, thank god, usually involves directly harming others. But if people are willing to believe good things, like that all people are able to be saved and live in Heaven with a creator God, then by the same process many must be willing to believe things that are less palatable

  303. It’s not really important but gosh those are pics of two ugly pukes been really hit with the ugly stick. Can’t we have one pic of a cool guy maybe a Texas Ranger or a cabana boy? yeah it’s too early but the coffee’s ready now even if I’m not yet.

  304. Melissa

    I cant speak for “S” but I consider her very intelligent, and it seems to me she is studying what gets under some peoples skin to harm people in the name of religion.

    To me, in my study of this issue, which goes back quite a while, there are many who use some so-called revelation to harm others – from splitting up families all the way to murder and suicide.

    And everything in between. I personally have a lay opinion that these people arent crazy, or really experience a true revelation. I think they just make crap up on the fly to manipulate people.

    Dont know if you noticed, GT did, there is an update on the top of this very thread about the arrest of Terrill Dalton who manipulated his own daughter into having sex with him and his right hand man. Didnt even bother to fake marry her.

    (It was a little adventure into Polyandry though)

    I would also say, that many people are offended when some group twists a faith apart until its not even the same faith any longer. Or its hijacked.

    Its like sticking a Mercedes emblem on a Ford Fiesta. And then what do you think that little Ford Fiesta is going to do?

    Well it has a fake label on it, and once it gets away with that, any other sort of abuses can happen.

  305. Ron, can you give any insight to the hearing that’s scheduled for the 26th?

  306. My .02c sez Warren will be extradited.

  307. PT

    Whenever someone is arrested they get arraigned. In this case Jeffs is being arraigned on the extradition warrant. He’ll be brought before a judge and advised of his rights. If he says he’s going to fight extradition, then the Judge will set a date for him to file his petition for habeas corpus.

    There’s not much to fight. He may delay it for a short time, but he’ll be on his way to Texas shortly.

  308. I understand, it’s an arraignment on the extradition. When he gets to Texas will he then have a arraignment in from of Judge Walther?

  309. For those of you who like to read this stuff, here is today’s reading selection. It is from 1885 and is called “CELESTIAL MARRIAGE AND ACTS OF CONGRESS” by B H Roberts. This selection discusses polygamy and the Old and New Testaments, among other things. It probably highlights some of the arguments and justifications for practicing polygamy that the Mormon Fundies use.

    B H Roberts was a Mormon leader, historian, and politician who published a six-volume history of the LDS Church and was denied a seat as a member of U S Congress because of his practice of polygamy.
    http://www.ogdenkraut.com/CELESTIAL%20MARRIAGE%20%20BH%20Roberts.htm

  310. Leviticus
    19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

    Matthew 22
    35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Luke 10:25-27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

    Galatians
    5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    THE SHORT VERSION….
    Matthew
    7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

  311. PT

    Correct – he’s also entitled to arraignment in Texas. He could waive that, a lot of people do.

  312. I bet ole Warren will waive the reading of the charges LOL.

  313. This just in from Canada :
    http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/08/22/15103016.html

  314. Brent Hunsaker is workin it.

    “Oveson said the trust would soon release a detailed list of all the people who have not paid their property taxes.

    No one answered Oveson’s charge during the meeting. Afterwards, council members declined a request for comment from ABC 4. But Mayor David Ziting admitted, “This year I had a little bit of a delay. But I talked to Val about that and the taxes will be paid.”

    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/Hildale-councilmen-hike-tax-accused-of-not-paying/Y6GlHd8CYEafTo7Qo6XrQw.cspx?rss=20

    =============================

    “It is remarkable when a town council votes to increase taxes — especially by 237%. But when they do it without any discussion among the members of the council, that approaches the unbelievable.”

    http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/blogs/story/Brent-Hunsaker-Hildale-town-council-meeting-just/7J9AouaBy0q6BOmV0DCpfw.cspx

  315. Of coourse, no opportunity was provided for input from the public,
    taxpayers. It sounds very top down and arbitrary, similar to much of the decision making amongst the flds.

  316. This appears to have been decided in private, prior the public display.

    They want WHAT from TAXPAYERS, meaning those who PAY taxes?

  317. They want what they seem to have always wanted, Granny, for the few to pay for the elite — which is apparently the “good” FLDS.

  318. ptui

  319. probably decided at the meetings the last weekend of july. they met for 5 hours on the 31st and then again for a long while on the 1st.

  320. Why can’t Brooke Adams tell the whole story? She refers to Elissa Wall being married to Allen Steed. She omits that Allen was Elissa’s cousin – she just refers to him as a man. Yeah, that man was actually her first cousin!

    Not only was it an illegal underage marriage, it was also incest. Does Brooke Adams not know they were cousins?

    State asks court to clarify jury instructions in Jeffs case
    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50155019-76/jeffs-court-state-asks.html.csp

  321. And they weren’t really married, ever, Anonymous @ 8:47.

  322. “It is remarkable when a town council votes to increase taxes — especially by 237%. But when they do it without any discussion among the members of the council, that approaches the unbelievable.”
    http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/blogs/story/Brent-Hunsaker-Hildale-town-council-meeting-just/7J9AouaBy0q6BOmV0DCpfw.cspx

    ——————————

    Wow. The Koolaide in Hildale must be extra special tasty.

  323. Unbelievable? Certainly. Remarkable, as well. They, the abusive FLDS power structure, expect it to work because their imperial decrees have before. So far.

    They look kinda hilarious naked and exposed, don’t you think? Scrawny butts, fat pimpled butts, knobbyknees, funnylooking peepees and all.

  324. Blogo

    You all ok over there? keep safe

  325. Terrill Dalton is getting extradited to Utah, will cross paths with Warren:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/50159621-68/church-dalton-utah-leader.html.csp

  326. Wendell plead not guilty to all three of his bigamy charges today in his pretrial hearing.

  327. At least Terrill Dalton is ponying up to his misdeeds and coming to Utah to face the rape charges. Wimpo Warren is going to fight extradition to Texas all the way. I guess God told him he didn’t have to be held accountable for his raping little girls. What a waste of time and money. What a COWARD!

  328. Wendell plead not guilty to all three of his bigamy charges today in his pretrial hearing.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Is this a defensible position for Wendell to take, given that the State of Texas has evidence ?

  329. Why can’t Brooke Adams tell the whole story?
    ——
    I’ve been wondering that for quite some time now.

    Maybe there’s a Worst Reporter Ever award that she’s competing for and we don’t know about.

  330. Is this a defensible position for Wendell to take, given that the State of Texas has evidence ?
    ——–
    Other FLDS men have pleaded not guilty and Texas had lots of evidence for them as well.

    Wendell can plead whatever he wants. As a tactic it’s pretty dumb. He’s going to serve time either way but he would serve a lot less under a plea deal.

  331. Girls treated like ‘poison snakes’ in B.C. polygamous community, ex-member says

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/girls-treated-like-poison-snakes-ex-member-of-bc-polygamous-community-says/article1682823/

  332. The poison snakes thing is one I’d heard before, to keep boys away from the girls that belong to the oldfarts.

    Anywayz. About Adams. She has never ever once given a straight honestloy reported story and you know it. An FLDS rental.

  333. My feelings about Ms Adams “reporting” is that she shills for the FLDS in return for getting access to them.

  334. access to willie? yeah uh-hunh

  335. access to willie an’t that great. does anyone know if he wears a toupee? he looked like he had a bad combover at the hearing today.

  336. seems like faithful flds ought to notice that somewhere along the line, the big boy leaders somehow quit thinkin’ of the gals as poison snakes….

  337. Anon 6:40 pm said …does anyone know if he wears a toupee? he looked like he had a bad combover at the hearing today….

    The FLDS exhibit extraordinarily poor judgment in appointing someone like Willie to be their spokesman. He is uncouth, unkempt,uneducated and is unable to construct a meaningful sentence.

  338. Uncouth, unkempt, uneducated and unintelligible – Yep, that’s Willie Boy!

    I bet he makes his parents proud.

  339. don’t you know it anon @8:11

  340. who is the father of david lawrence stubbs?

  341. David Lawrence Stubbs
    Father-Lawrence Stubbs
    Mother-Rhoda Olson

  342. So does Wendell think he/his attorneys are going to change Texas laws on bigamy, or wot?

  343. Toad

    Come on – what they think has no relation to what is the reality.

    My guess is that folks are trying to get a US Supreme Court ruling. There is no way any Texas court appeals court is going to decriminalize polygamy.

  344. o yeah that. Thanks, Ron.

  345. I have a new post directed at those internet folks who want to continue to call Elissa Wall a liar.

    It’s here.

    Let me know what you think.

  346. Given the make up of our supreme court I think they are barking up the wrong tree on that also…. no way will the SCOTUS rule in favor of polygamy either….

  347. I think you’re right in your assessment Ron.

  348. Good write up, Ron!!!

  349. Good job Ron, I left a comment as well.

  350. Ewww ptuii you had a coupla sicko haters post to that Ron but it does take all kinds.

  351. Toad,
    That looks like Mary Kay / aka 40 & unmarried posting on Ron’s blog. Same disordered thought patterns and pseudo – psychologizing.

  352. Honestly, the post was designed to both shock and shame. The honest answer about rape allegations between people involved with one another is that you never know. You know they’re involved, you know they had sex, anything after that is a big gray area.

    Even if someone is convicted or acquitted, you still don’t really know. All that means is that 12 people heard all the facts and made a decision based upon their sensibilities and their evaluation of the credibility of the two people involved.

    For the most part, I don’t see anti-FLDS people running around calling Allen Steed a lying piece-of-sh** rapist. Everyone has their opinions on it, but in general you just don’t see pictures of Allen Steed going up on the internet with the caption “Rapist” under them.

    The pro-FLDS apparently don’t have the same intellectual honesty. Hopefully, it will make them think. It may not, but I’m feeling somewhat optimistic today!

  353. The argument that Elissa must be lying because people on the internet are mean is one of the dumbest I have ever seen.

    Also, wasn’t it Krakauer, not Carolyn Jessop, who brought up the tape of the rape? It seems to me like a Medvecky thing to phrase it as though the 12 year old was starring in a porn movie, rather than being the victim of an egomaniac who likes to record his conquests.

  354. it was krakauer, not carolyn who discussed the tape and/or transcript. i can’t wait to hear mad bill’s discussion of how the evidence found in the red escalade is tainted or otherwise inadmissible.

  355. O yeah I recognized 40

  356. You know, Ron, I’m actually amazed at the differences in the two responses to your blog entry myself. On one hand you have a group of people who agree that declaring one member in a legal dispute to be lying without actual first hand knowledge is a very wrong thing to do. Then you have a whole different group claiming that it’s okay if THEY think the people are lying — all while claiming that everyone else is all for these “lies” as well. Very telling, the lack of personal integrity.

  357. “Court case won’t just look at Mormon polygamists; Muslims under scrunity too”

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/court-case-wont-just-examine-mormon-polygamy-muslims-too-101501749.html

  358. My word, Ron, you are prolific this week – I’m loving it !

    http://fldslegal.blogspot.com/

  359. Polygamous way of life harmful, former Bountiful, B.C., residents allege
    http://www.canadaeast.com/rss/article/1188794

  360. Supreme Court says FLDS waited too long to object to land sale
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700060679/Supreme-Court-says-FLDS-waited-too-long-to-object-to-land-sale.html

  361. I don’t know if any of you have had the opportunity to see this, but below is a link to a video of a teenage girl who was stoned to death for refusing to become the plural child bride of a much older man in an Islamic country.
    Warning : this is an extremely graphic video of a stoning of a teenage girl.

    [video src="http://api.ning.com/files/z3d9*itq3PNsDKEpjhA1RVzVll7q8h2AVuowuSKRp6fD4srHPLwf77YNbMx0dYrtewuKnc*NzRph7a-3-Qh7Fpk7yhdECgpr/FA__lapidationstoning.wmv" /]

  362. FA_-_lapidation-stoning.wmv

  363. Blood atonement. For refusing to have sex and babies with some old married man.

  364. hellohellogoodbye says:
    Here is an Aug. 5 2010 story on the state of law enforcement in the Creek:

    http://www.mohavedailynews.com/articles/2010/09/05/news/local/doc4c8334d9e0b75793699189.txt

    Sheriff’s office investigating Colorado City police activities

    By JIM SECKLER/The Daily News

  365. S

    Wow – Its just amazing that there is a society on this world who would treat children that way. They stomped her and crushed her head with a cinder block. I wonder if they went home proud of that.

  366. This video is from Iraq, and it is only 2-3 yrs old.

  367. Yes, the stoning video is amazing. I don’t understand where that kind of hatred comes from. It’s like a mass torture of a kitten. They beat a child to death in a mob. Just wow.

  368. She committed the ultimate sin for a female. She said “no”.

    Of course, to them just being born female is apparently a sin too.

  369. Speaking of abuse, I saw the movie Precious today. It was one of the best movies I’ve seen in a long time. The way it made the inner workings of the silent girl’s mind known was really well done.

  370. Warren’s Extradition hearing is tomorrow in West Jordan.

  371. I loved Precious Betty. Great flick.

  372. Warren is indeed going to go to court today, one more step on his journey. The Houston Chron is the only one picking it up.

    “Texas authorities have charged Jeffs with bigamy, aggravated sexual assault and assault related to alleged incidents with girls at a church ranch near Eldorado.

    Jeffs is scheduled to appear at a 1 p.m. hearing Tuesday in 3rd District Court before Judge Terry Christiansen.”

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/7189339.html

  373. …and Ron has a blog entry about it :

    http://fldslegal.blogspot.com/

  374. Brooke missed it by a mile. There is an ap article on the trib.

  375. Iran is preparing to stone a woman while the international community speaks out :

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/07/iran-stoning-case-eu-cond_n_707001.html?utm_source=DailyBrief&utm_campaign=090710&utm_medium=email&utm_content=NewsEntry

  376. Does anyone know if the trials for Merril and Wendell are still on schedule? I see Merril’s pretrial hearing is on September 28th, but I don’t see either one’s trial scheduled for October.

  377. KSL TV also has article on Jeffs on it’s website:

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12320343

  378. Here’s a video posted on youtube by Eldorado Success newspaper:

    Amazing the contrast between the lives of the young people of Elodrado, TX and the youth of YFZ.

    Wish all the youth of YFZ could have come and witnessed the community prep rally, what the YFZ youth are missing is sad. So close yet so far away.

    No YFZ girls as cheerleaders, no young YFZ men playing on the local football team.

  379. Apologies to folks for misspelling Eldorado, my bad!

  380. Yes, every time I see a group of teens in our nation doing team sports, cheerleading, etc, and think about the boys and girls at yfz and other warrenite enclaves, I think about the incredible contrast. flds girls are supposed to become “breeders” and domestic slaves with no minds, and the boys either agree to be slave laborers or get out. Don’t forget that they are told they will go to he** if they don’t comply, and they hear it at every turn, from infancy. Sorry- but flds like the ones on camera that say flds have choices just like everyone else, and are free- I will never believe them. The lying is ingrained just like the damnation teachings and “prophet” worship requirements. If the sect/cult whatever was as good as they claim it would have far more “members.” The breeding patterns alone by now would have guaranteed a much larger group of people happier to stay inside the group.

  381. Ron is blogging that Warren refused to sign the extradition papers and there will be yet another hearing on November 15 regarding possible extradition.

    http://fldslegal.blogspot.com/2010/09/jeffs-to-fight-hell-lose.html

  382. that’s the way it was explained to me S, if he refused to sign at this hearing then he’d be given a hearing for his attorney’s to present their reasons why he shouldn’t be extradited.

  383. Ron, why are those being sought for extradition allowed to get themselves more and more time like this by having a say in signing or not signing paperwork?

  384. gretchen

    That’s called due process. It frustrates people. However, rest assured that while the wheels may sometimes turn slowly, they usually grind down the guilty.

  385. Thanks, but then this is something I could take advantage of if I was the one who hopped on over the picket fence and waltzed with the underage neighborhood dudes?? hopefully they would also believe I was God, of course….( a kinda fat, aging, female god”dess,” actually..) Ok, I get it. WE’RE the ones who are frustrated, ’cause we’re people..warren’s not a person, he’s some anomaly. So he doesn’t have to experience frustration.

  386. Oh wait- I forgot- he DOES show frustration sometimes! That time when he told some little miss flds muffet she better kowtow “or else..” or that time when he figured he better warn the other guys right after DaddyRulon croaked-“HANDS OFF FATHER’S WIVES”..yeah, I forgot, he sounded a little peeved that day…and that time he was bangin his head against the jail cell wall…hmm……. dags!!

  387. Here’s a video from KSL TV station, and of course ole fat Willie boy has to get his mug on TV:

    Video Courtesy of KSL.com

    Ole Warren Jeffs looks like a sleazy sort of dude IMO in court and get a load of Wally boy’s bow tie! Wonder if it will be Wally or Pic in Judge Barbara Walther court.

  388. I thought I saw Goldie in that video. Wonder how much he charged Warren to appear with him in Utah. I guessing Mrs. Goldie has her sights set on another European getaway and Goldie’s trying to fund it.

  389. BTW – Heidi Foster who spoke in the video is the “wife” of John Daniel Kingman. She had her children taken away from her for abuse. The oldest two girls were permanently removed, rights terminated and they were adopted.

  390. Proud,
    Who is John Daniel Kingman ?

  391. I think they meant Kingston.

  392. I found this on John Daniel Kingston :

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy2.html

  393. Yes, it was Kingston.

  394. Oh …
    that is a totally disgusting story…
    now one wonders where the real media is that would want to know more about people who show up to support from other polygamist groups especially given the history of these various groups….
    I am enraged twice over…. once on behalf of the child
    and second over why reporters fail to do a proper job of research of the information..

  395. Yes, HHG, it astounds me also. A girl is beaten viciously for not being the 15th concubine of a man twice her age, turns herself into the police and her father is convicted. But most of the US never hears about it and thinks that sort of thing only happens in Afghanistan. Then the apologists say that abuse in polygamist communities is normal and isolated just like in monogamist communities. So where are the monogamist fathers who beat their daughters half to death because they refuse to marry their own uncle, even without other wives?

  396. More on the Kingston group :

    http://www.childpro.org/1998%20medai/1998%20media%2004.htm

  397. Incest is a tenet of the Kingston polygamy group :

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy25.html

  398. A brief history of the Kingston group :

    http://www.utahgothic.com/features/kingstons/darn%20kingstons.html

  399. I keep forgetting, are they the ones with inbred schizophrenia also?

  400. In this episode of Polygamy : What Love is This, Doris Hanson interviews researcher Terri Scoville on the effects of Mormon fundamentalist polygamy on women

    http://www.whatloveisthis.tv/ep334.htm

    [blip.tv http://blip.tv/play/gsJ8gfroPwI%5D

  401. S posted this comment:

    #

    A brief history of the Kingston group :

    http://www.utahgothic.com/features/kingstons/darn%20kingstons.html

    S said this on September 8, 2010 at 8:27 AM

    Well there more on subject of polygamists on this website, Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, with a mention of Flora Jessop correctly figuring out who done it, ignored by Utah LE as usual.

    http://www.utahgothic.com/features/liz/crackpotliz.html

    From article: “Shortly after the Smart kidnapping Flora Jessop, 34, emailed the media. She suggested searchers look into a possible polygamist angle in the Smart abduction.”

  402. Here’s a little more on Mitchell from Utah Gothic website, note on right Mitchell’s dictations and compare with those of Warren Jeffs. IMO both Mitchell & Jeffs have been inhaling deeply from the same bong!

    http://www.utahgothic.com/features/liz/mitchell.html

  403. Toad,

    I could not find any literature which supported the claim that an increased incidence of schizophrenia is found in the Kingston group. So far, they have identified nail and finger abnormalities as well as reproductive tract abnormalities in the Kingston clan. There also is an increased incidence of stillbirths in the Kingston group. This is all I could find about it, there are no medical journal articles specifically about genetic diseases in the Kingston group.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy25.html

  404. “I remember she had severe edema [swelling],” said the sheriff’s lieutenant. “She swelled up a lot.”

    Rugg said the swelling affected Andrea’s brain, causing it to crush against the skull and her retinal nerves. “She was blind by the time they took her to the hospital,” Rugg said.

    Asked why another family member couldn’t have taken Andrea to the hospital before Johnson made the three-hour drive to get her, Johnson said: “I’m not going to talk about that.”

    http://www.xmission.com/~plporter/lds/kingston2.htm

  405. Walton,
    That is a description of eclampsia, a disorder in which a pregnant woman develops high blood pressure and protein is seen in the urine. (It is commonly called toxemia of pregnancy). It is extremely dangerous and can kill or disable the mother, the child, or both.
    While certain families may have a genetic predisposition to it,
    we do see this disorder more frequently when teenagers and women over 40 become pregnant.

  406. here you go, Walton :

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000899.htm

  407. YES- I for one also got a load o’ wally’s bow-tie- wally thinks he’s a neat old boy, don’t he? with those cute lil ol wire specs, bow-ties, d u i’s, I mean f l d s’s? (sorry, gettin my letters mixed up a little!) ya know, i wonder if it has ever crossed the ever-holy warren j’s all-encompassing mind, that these “gentile” lawyers of his are doomed to h*** just cause they’re not flds!!- why, all those tithe payers and alta academy victims, i mean children, learned that, ddddint they?? (‘course not until wj is through needin them legal eagles……and milkin the flock to pay em) After THAT, we all gotta get some popcorn and watch while the fiery pit opens up on warren’s cue for em..o’ course Tara might hafta jump in there first, cause she’s got cut hair and all…wait!!- wj prophesied he’d die in jail..wow. now just how he gonna make that one lil prophecy come true (gosh- hopefully them worthies at yfz and stuff forgot that one, but iffen they didn’t, warren can make up another good ‘un..)anyways, how’s he gonna croak in anybody’s big house if he ain’t even gonna let them lawyers off the hook?…Anybody ever hear if wj taught logic at alta??

  408. If he thinks he’s going to die in jail, why is he worried about going to Texas? Is it more uncomfortable being a martyr for the cause there than in Utah? Or could it be that facing reality is a bit more frightening than imagining visions of martyrdom in your mind?

  409. S. I understand that my link didn’t have anything to do with Schizophrenia.

    I brought the link over because Heidi was in the latest clip concerning Warren Jeffs. And like the FLDS the Kingstons have a huge history of denying that abuse takes place.

    Here is a little more on the Kingstons: http://www.themilitant.com/2004/6829/682902.html

  410. Maybe then it’s Lebarons and scizhophrenia.

  411. That rings a bell, Granny.

  412. Walton,
    that is an interesting link – 10$/hr less than non-Kingston employees all because they can run the shop with grandchildren….
    It really is a scam isn’t it?

  413. Well, what it looked like to me is that they never paid them ANY real money, they just gave them a credit at the company store. Sounds like West Virginia in 1890.

  414. Now, I just can’t understand why warren doesn’t wanna “get closer to” the elites of yfz..Can you? Could his not yearning for TX (we could just say nyft in the future) be a “sign” yfz is faltering? (of course, if it were, it couldn’t be warren’s doing in any way)….or maybe “the LORD”(i.e. his own delusions and desires) “showed him”(i.e. warren had the thought of ) some new whim?? naw..prob just the fact charges are so serious. (Oops! was that reality there for a minute ? warren, you naughty profit, get back to your holy delusions RIGHT NOW, or you’ll go to bed with no dinner! shucks, you do that a lot already, don’tcha?)??) Right, betty, reality can’t possibly be as enjoyable for warren as his latest fantastic delusional tale of glory and homage swirling around himself inside his head. But maybe those dudes standing up in the courtroom yesterday for him helped an eentsy bit. It must be tough, ya know?

  415. Video Courtesy of KSL.com

    This is link posted earlier with video of Kingston supporting Jeffs, comments on article are also interesting.

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=12320343

  416. Here’s a link for a video where at end Kingston rep Heidi Foster states all polygamists should be supporting Warren Jeffs, and she wouldn’t be there if the Kingston clan leadership didn’t approve of it.

    http://www.abc4.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=99991@ktvx.web.entriq.net&navCatId=5

  417. Please continue on next Open Discussion.

    – Admin

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