Utah Supreme Court Opinion: Utah v. Warren Steed Jeffs

While this may look like a defeat, it is actually the best result that could have happened.   I believe that Utah will not retry Warren, in which case he will quickly be extradited to Texas.   If the Utah charges had stuck, Warren would have had to be transferred back to Utah to finish his sentence after he is convicted in Texas.   He would very likely never serve time in Texas.   Now, if Utah drops the charges, he will be extradited to Texas, tried on charges of aggravated sexual assault of a child, sexual assault of a child and bigamy (enhanced), and he will serve his sentence in Texas without having to be sent back to Utah.   That is as it should be — Texas has the more serious charges, DNA and documentary evidence to support convictions, and stiffer penalties than can be imposed in Utah.

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 27, 2010.

364 Responses to “Utah Supreme Court Opinion: Utah v. Warren Steed Jeffs”

  1. There’s no basis to contest extradition to texas now. I actually agree with the court in this opinion, as much as it pains me to say that.

  2. Cannot wait to see him extradited to Texas. He is just that much closer.

  3. I agree with it too and am happy it removes the roadblocks to Texas

  4. Nothing has been printed that he did or did not sign those papers. As I see it Warren Jeffs is a free man.

    I also see it that if you are a victim of any sort concerning the Polygamy abuse in utah or Arizona you don’t stand a chance with the court systems as it ia.

    Great message to leave.

  5. Warren is not a free man, he is a fugitive from the state of Texas and an extradition warrant has been issued. There are charges pending in Utah — the Supreme Court opinion does not exonerate him, it merely remands for a new trial. He is still under indictment in Utah and is still in their custody and will remain so until he goes to trial again or until he is extradited to Texas.

    No worries. This is actually a good result — I doubt Utah will retry him, so there will be no barriers to extradition. As long as he was serving his sentence in Utah, the governor could have denied extradition. If there are pending charges before a new trial, the governor could deny extradition … but the gov has already agreed to extradite him. Now he will go to Texas to face the more serious charges and when he is convicted he will actually serve his sentence in Texas and will not be sent back to Utah to finish his sentence there.

    While this looks like a defeat, it is not. 🙂

  6. Thanks for pointing out the silver lining to the Utah cloud. Send him on, Utah! We’re ready for him in Texas.

  7. FLDS Texas with all due respect to you and to many others on this board this truly is a picture of defeat. Not many people from the FLDS are able to meet up with people willing to explain the legal proceedures to them. How does this look to a young girl or a young teen who has been ousted?

    That Justice is only served in Texas?

    This is wrong. It’s just plain wrong. The message they are leaving is wrong. Just plain wrong.

  8. There has been no mention of him signing or not signing the papers. If he doesn’t sign them they have no reason for him or his name to be on the jail roster.

  9. Walton, I disagree — I think the victims in this particular case are fine with Warren being sent to Texas for trial and conviction. This Utah Supreme Court decision is the right decision under the law. It turns on a fine legal point that needed to be clarified in Utah because their accomplice statute is so poorly written. I think the decision is the right decision, and I do think it’s questionable whether Warren could really be found guilty as an accomplice to rape under the facts of that case. In any event, he has been in custody since 2006, and that was long enough to keep him from doing more damage in Utah or Arizona and long enough to get him indicted in Texas on more serious and sound charges.

    Remember Warren was tried as an accomplice — he was not the person who raped Elissa Wall.

  10. Walton — he will remain in jail whether he signs the extradition papers or not. At the moment he is in Utah custody pending trial on charges of rape as an accomplice. He has not been exonerated.

  11. Jeffs was scheduled to appear before 3rd District Judge Terry Christiansen to be asked to sign papers allowing authorities to bring him to Texas to face criminal charges. Courts spokeswoman Nancy Volmer said Monday that the “paperwork that was filed by Texas is no longer applicable and a new hearing will not be scheduled.”
    http://166.70.44.73/sltrib/home/49994885-76/jeffs-court-case-marriage.html.csp

  12. Yeah, I dont see him ever ever ever getting out. No matter what happens, there will be a cornucopia of criminal court dates for him, and with his past history of running from the FBI, he will never get bail.

  13. Walton — I cannot find that quote in the article. They must have amended it.

  14. I found it. Ok, it looks like the extradition warrant will have to be reissued probably because something on its face is no longer factually true, given the Supreme Court ruling. My guess would be that the warrant recites that Jeffs is in custody of Utah State Prison after being convicted — that is no longer factually true. Plus, he is going to be transferred to Washington County, so presumably the extradition warrant will have to address that. It just means that there are a few more hoops that have to be jumped through but it changes nothing. Warren will not be released from custody. Remember he is also subject to a federal warrant for unlawful flight from prosecution.

  15. It is on the left hand side of the article under the title called At a Glance. But it says the same things here: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11737707 An extradition hearing for polygamist leader Warren Jeffs has been canceled following the Utah Supreme Court decision. The court spokeswoman said the paperwork that was filed by Texas is no longer applicable and a new hearing will not be scheduled. In an e-mail to The Associated Press last week, defense attorney Wally Bugden said Jeffs intends to oppose extradition.

  16. I also see it that if you are a victim of any sort concerning the Polygamy abuse in utah or Arizona you don’t stand a chance with the court systems as it ia.

    Great message to leave.

    ………………..

    Walton you missed it though, Walton, the message is:

    All you really need is a valid complaint. All these rumors, allegations and accusations just don’t amount to evidence. Period.

    Look how far Elissa got with her complaint and testimony and it was only as an accomplice for a crime that was never actually adjudicated properly.

    I agree with Ron. They made a ruling based on the law and not the political fervor. This doesn’t amount to a win for warren so much as a win for civil liberties. Now warren is free to go to Texas. It’s a smart legal play.

    If you want to change the system then file the right complaint against the right persons … with evidence and testimony.(un-coerced un-remunerated and not hostile witnesses) Then the system will work fine, just like Orrin Hatch told them years ago “bring us evidence and we will prosecute” and they all spazzed over it like he was Plig-lover and a traitor to justice.

    And while you are at it, try to keep the Law from breaking the Law to enforce it… just for good measure. It tends to help a lot in the appeal process.

  17. Your right Blogogre. I belive I’ve posted with your other nic a time or two. But no matter. I don’t like you and I know you don’t care but it feels good to say it out loud.

    I am one that tries to face any fears I might have and I am also one to ask questions when I don’t understand something. I might not like the truth but I can deal with things much better when the truth is spoken. And I’ve said this all along using the same nic.

    Your right about the laws. Your right about the court proceedure but what does it tell you when it took this long for them to right this wrong. One group trying to outsmart the other and they all look like a bunch of slippery handed fools.

    But you go ahead and dance your dance and sing your song.

    Me? I hang my head. I am tired and I feel beaten.

  18. Walton,

    Dont sweat it. While I disagree with the SCOU, I think it will just mean that Warren faces justice in Texas faster.

    I think the SCOU played into FLDS fairy tales – in the real world, and yes in the flds world too as we have seen with underage babies, marriage is meant to be consumated and its not just to play house.

    Warren did it, he wouldnt let her out of it either – so he did it twice. There is no getting around it.

    Its a good thing he will stay incarcerated, the flds can drink champagne and get drunk, but in the morning he is still behind bars awaiting extradition from Texas!

  19. I’m fine with the prosecutors knowing for sure someone is guilty and trying to find something,anything that can stick. In this way, mafia leaders who could not be convicted of anything else, went to jail for RICO and tax evasion. Fine. Done society a favor.

    Yes, Warren, I feel very down for the women and girls. I feel like Utah said that it cannot be legal for a religious leader to coerce children to have sex. That’s just wrong no matter how you look at it. I cannot feel any joy for civil liberties, when these children are at risk and society does nothing. If it isn’t illegal, it needs to be. If nothing else, the legislature in Utah should close the loophole.

  20. Exactly betty, the legislature and the Law, but not Judicial activism.

    The feeling is mutual walton, I don’t like you too. lol but I’ve never posted any other nic. And honestly, it’s not my dance or my song.

    Why is it so hard for people to understand that you need complaints and evidence. I’m sorry but what they have done so far does almost look like a conspiracy sometimes, and that is why it so hard and backs up on them occasionally. What should really scare the hell out of you is if it didn’t.

    What you are involved in here is social engineering which is always a very slow process. The law is a means to an end. But hang in there, liberal socialism is coming on strong now. Pretty soon it will be against the law to not be just like you.

  21. What do you mean by judicial activism?

  22. I think there are complaints and evidence. Elissa complained.

    Socialism is an economic policy, not a legal policy.

  23. Blogo

    “Why is it so hard for people to understand that you need complaints and evidence.”

    There was ample complaints and ample evidence for Warren’s conviction.

    DUH! Pay attention! The SCOU ruled that the judge made an error, NOT that there wasnt a complaint or evidence!

    And I figure you were talking about the Texas issue, but not only are you on the wrong thread with that story, you are flogging a dead horse.

    But, tell us Blogo, how do you feel about men taking each others 12 -13 -and 14 year old children as wives and knocking them up quick?

    That kosher in your neck of the woods too?

  24. Judicial Activism is when the Judge rulings stretch the boundaries of the law. That is what happened here, they were trying to make a judicial definition of rape as an accomplice that did not have the clarity in the law to justify it. Many times the law is defined by precedent, which is why the lawyers are always making reference to other cases. The activism comes into play when the precedent is not justified by the actual law. The court assumes authority or makes an interpretation that the legislated law did not specify.

    A good example is Roe v Wade… but we won’t get into that. lol

    Yes betty, Elissa did complain, and look how far it went on that. But it has to be the right complaint for the right reason and against the right person(s) and with all the evidence and testimony to back it up… and it has to be done according to the Constitution, so it doesn’t get overturned on a technicality.

    Socialism as an economic policy will become the legal policy, it is only a matter of time. That is my point. But it isn’t only about economics.

  25. The SCOU didnt say that Blogo. There was a technicality, yes, and thats all it was. Murderers get off on those too sometimes.

    But what we really want to know, is how you feel about men molesting girls.

    You want to jump through legal hoops to give them an excuse.

  26. No Stamp I want them to jump through the legal hoops to get a conviction. See the difference? If they have to break or even stretch the law in order to enforce it they should loose in court. When that stops happening it’s good bye America.

    (Previous post deleted for personal attack – last warning – ADMIN)

  27. I dont see anyone stretching the law. I see the FLDS stretching fantasy to the point of breaking, and I see failures in the legal system though different than what you see, however Warren was found guilty by a jury and so have the men in Texas.

    Obviously this pains you, but maybe you can find solace by writing letters of support to Brian Mitchell, Tony Alamo and Warren Jeffs.

  28. My comments on Brooke Adams’ article: http://166.70.44.73/sltrib/home/49994885-76/jeffs-court-case-marriage.html.csp

    Wall testified during Jeffs’ trial that she objected to the union and, initially, to having sex with her husband but Jeffs ignored her requests to be let out of the marriage.

    Elissa did not INITIALLY object to having sex with Allen Steed; she CONTINUOUSLY objected to having sex with Allen Steed. What trial did this reporter sit through????

    He said the defense is “ready, we’re able” to face another prosecution if the state decides to go forward with a new trial. “Bring it on,” Bugden said.

    Ka-ching! Yep, school is starting soon and the children need new shoes. The recession has been tough on lawyers.

    If a new trial is set, Bugden said he would seek a change of venue.

    Hey Wally, how ’bout Texas? I’ve heard there are some great jurors there who care a lot about seeing that justice is served for pedophiles.

    Once Jeffs is transferred into Washington County’s custody, Bugden plans to file a motion asking Shumate to set reasonable bail so Jeffs can be reunited with his family. Jeffs’ bail was initially set at $500,000, but was later revoked and no new amount set.

    Yeah right! Bail so Warren can “be reunited with his family” and tour the USA one step ahead of the law?

    FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop said, “We are very grateful. We’ve seen the Supreme Court deliver us in the past from biased courts and overzealous prosecutions and it’s good to know that protection is there for everyone, including the FLDS,” he said.

    Hey Willie, you finally got the words right – prosecution instead of persecution.

    An extradition hearing scheduled for Tuesday, however, was cancelled because it sought Jeffs’ transfer based on a rule relating to prisoners.

    Hey Brooke, Warren is STILL a prisoner. He’s just heading south for the summer back to Purgatory – being incarcerated in JAIL still makes Warren a prisoner.

    “Our biggest concern is, obviously, how do we protect young girls … from being forced by their leaders to marry older men and have sex with them,” Shurtleff said.

    Yeah Mark, how IS Utah going to protect these child brides?

    The words Jeffs used to bless the couple were not a command to commit or submit to rape, he said, and if forced sex took place the groom — not Jeffs — was responsible.

    So what exactly IS happening with the case of Allen Steed the rapist?

    Authorities said Tuesday that work continues to bring polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs to Texas to stand on charges of bigamy, aggravated sexual assault of a child and sexual assault of a child. The first two charges are based on an alleged marriage between Jeffs and a 12-year-old girl that occurred in July 2006 at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado, Texas. The third charge involves a child Jeffs allegedly fathered with an underage girl in 2005

    Hey Willie et al, I thought you said underage marriages don’t happen. What is this about “an alleged marriage between Jeffs and a 12-year-old girl?” 12 years old ?!? Surely not.

  29. Blogogre said this on July 27, 2010 at 6:38 PM

    “Then the system will work fine, just like Orrin Hatch told them years ago “bring us evidence and we will prosecute” and they all spazzed over it like he was Plig-lover and a traitor to justice.”

    Orrin Hatch has many past close ties with Hildale (Short Creek). He has absolutely no interest in prosecuting any of the crimes in polygamous communities/societies such as Short Creek. Hell, polygamy is Orrin Hatch’s ancestry! Orrin Hatch was just blowing hot air when he made this statement in a town hall meeting in St. George, Utah. He was looking to get re-elected again. Orrin Hatch cares much more about college football and the BCS than he does about victims and crimes of polygamy. Orrin Hatch is an old joke who needs to retire from (or get voted out of) the US Senate.

  30. Yes, Orrin has been a failure to the victims of polygamy in Utah – of which there are many.

    He is an enabler.

  31. Blogogre, there have been LOTS of complaints and plenty of evidence. Each case I’ve read about in Utah has resulted in sentences so lenient they might just as well have saved themselves the trouble of a trial. AND the evidence was all quite legally obtained. Why are you ignoring all that?

    However, I agree with you on the SCOU ruling. It is better for everyone that the Supreme Court rules with caution as to irregularities in a trial. That IS a protection for all people, even if it means Warren may not be officially convicted of the crime of what he did to Elissa (and others). As long as he’s still going to be held accountable, and especially held accountable for those rapes he enacted himself, I’ll be a happy camper.

  32. Obviously this pains you, but maybe you can find solace by writing letters of support to Brian Mitchell, Tony Alamo and Warren Jeffs.

    ——————————-

    At least I finally figured out why you don’t get banned for your personal attacks. but whatever!

    Stamp;
    You should be the one to write thank you letters, these are are your SuperHero’s not mine. Look how much they have done to help you Stamp out polygamy, discredit religion and undermine the fundamentalist culture. You couldn’t do without them.

  33. Complaints in the legal sense Rebeckah, not just people who bitch about it to the media however valid their injustice. They have to file a real complaint with evidence to back it up and then be willing to testify in court. Yeah, I know it’s a tough road sometimes, but that IS the system. Yes, Elissa did that and you have to admit she made more of an impact than anything else. And… actually there was a lot of problems with the evidence … and the complaint as well for that matter. I’m not saying the jury got it wrong, based on all the arguments, but this whole case had problems, as evidenced by the Supreme Court ruling. It didn’t just only have technical problems, there was some serious theoretical law being tested.

    But even in Texas they had a complaint to CPS… even though it was anonymous and dubious, and maybe even contrived, but at least it does give them some way to take action.

    In the media and on the blogs you are guilty until proven innocent, but in the real world it doesn’t (and shouldn’t) work like that

  34. That actually made sense.

  35. So then, bite the bullet for a change and admit that Orrin Hatch got it right on. A politician is everybody’s friend… right? lol

  36. I said it made sense. I didn’t say I agree with you. But at least it was coherent. Which your comment about Orrin Hatch did not. What was Orrin Hatch “right on” about, pray tell?

  37. OK

    Blogorgre and Betty – join hands and form a circle

    Now repeat after me….

    Kum by ya, my Lord, kum by ya

  38. LOL! I told you he wasn’t that bad.

  39. “Complaints in the legal sense Rebeckah, not just people who bitch about it to the media however valid their injustice.”

    I was referring to LEGAL complaints. Legal complaints with evidence, convictions and laughably minor sentences to the perpetrators. Don’t condescend me, angry person, I’m not the one who hurt you. None of us here have harmed you.

  40. I’m just asking questions, Ron. I thought we were making progress. Maybe it’s just a communication style thing.

  41. While we’re counting people who complained, there’s Ruth Stubbs.

  42. Blogo

    Say, I thought I recall that you said you were x FLDS or had lived in CC.

    Was I wrong? I guess it wouldnt be the first time. BTW, I dont think I have called you any names?

    On this board, specifically. I dont remember on polygville though I was defending Mike.

  43. Rodney served ONE YEAR ON WORK RELEASE. But there’s nothing wrong with justice in Utah.

  44. Ok I will leave the condescending to you. But I should warn you, you really don’t even know what you are talking about when you get into this evidence territory. I’m not saying that just to be rude. It’s a fact. A lot of the inside mechanics of all this is never made public. Just ask Ron if you don’t believe me.

    The anti-polygamy activists are very vocal, but a great deal of what actually happens is deliberately kept off the record, and away from the media, and not only for defense, but by the prosecution as well.

    That is why I was talking about ethics before. But that’s a riddle I don’t want to get into for fear of confusing betty boop. Kum by ya.

    P.S. I am not angry, paranoid lady, I’m an just an ogre (with a cryptic sense of humor).

  45. Big O, kindly refrain from making remarks like “paranoid lady” when referring to Rebeckah.
    She is not paranoid, nor do any of us think it appropriate to make fun of someone with a disability.

  46. I’m not paranoid; you are projecting something that isn’t there. I’m not upset either. You are a bit of a puzzle and I’m bored and tired, that’s all.

    I agree that I don’t know the inner workings of evidence, but why should I believe that you do?

    Yes, you are cryptic. Why come out in public and say things most people can’t understand because you give no context? You can always make jokes with your self in private, why do it here?

  47. I thought he was talking to me. Part of the being cryptic, I guess, or not really used to talking on the internet?

    Blogogre, it might be useful if you say who you are speaking to, and which post you are referencing. Otherwise people have a tendency to think that you are referencing the most recent post above. Context.

  48. you see, betty, Rodney is real good example of what I am talking about. You thought that was about being tried and convicted for underage bigamy, and then only getting a slap on the wrist. But that case was really about custody. But that hardly even got mentioned by people who only get the “news”.

  49. On the internet the opportunity to interpret non verbal communication from body language, tone of voice, and facial expression are lost, thus it is necessary to be very cautious and clear in your postings.

  50. yes betty, i noticed that.. (right after I posted) I do try to use names (which does not come natural for me) but it would help if you read the whole blog. kwim?

  51. ok sorry S. It’s ok though if she calls me “angry person” I guess. lol

    I’m getting the hang of it I think. The attacks, hyperbole, conjecture and ad-hominem can only one direction here. Oh and the condescending. I’ll try to keep that in mind.

  52. No I am not suggesting that. You can come across as quite angry, and you don’t usually realize it. She has a disability, if you will recall…

  53. I guess there are anti-polygamy people here. Mostly it’s not a good thing, but I understand the early basis of it, in hunter gatherer bands of 25 or fewer, but not today’s troglodytes.

  54. She is who? S; No I didn’t know that. I guess she could take that as a compliment. (but sheesh then whoever isn’t is insulted… can’t win for losing) I thought it was a case of selective memory. lol

  55. I am referring to Rebeckah.

  56. Well granny;

    I wish someone really smart would actually do the math. They take the 50/50 gender balance and do freakinomics of left-over men with it, but if you take age difference into the formula then polygamy can actually work on a limited basis. (like 90 year old “troglodytes” with 90 wives kind of messes it all up for everyrone lol)

    Are you following that logic? Put 6,8,or 10 years difference in the age of the women and the men and then redo do the math still using 50/50 progeny balance. No one needs to be underage, or coerced, or “arranged” into a relation with extreme age difference.

    I have some other theories about things that could really make it work better, but that’s another matter altogether.

    It is religious, whether you believe it or not is your choice. It’s not for everybody, that’s for sure, but it could work. Another thing you really need to get your mind around is that it wouldn’t, doesn’t and never has worked if the women didn’t believe in it.

    All the rhetoric about not having a choice is just that… rhetoric. Obviously there have been some abuses and injustice, but those are not really part of the religion.

  57. Ok … Kum by yah Rebeckah. I’ll make an honest effort to be more nicer.

    You can go ahead and like me if you want to after all, I don’t mind.

  58. Does anyone really have a “choice” when they are told that they will be “destroyed” if they do not participate in polygamy, or they will not achieve the highest levels of exaltation unless they participate ?

    Did these women choose polygyny, or did they choose salvation ?
    I would offer it is the later.

  59. and by the way, I cannot make heads or tails of your post at 10:37 pm either.
    Show me your math if you will.

  60. Sorry Blog O, I meant your post at 10:29 pm – show me your math.

  61. Blogo

    ” It’s not for everybody, that’s for sure, but it could work.”

    Nah, not from what Ive heard. Maybe in some third world country with no real men. But who would want to live in some slum just to have more wives than you can handle?

  62. S, I kind of like joking and having people not really be able to tell if I am serious or not. Maybe it is a bit mean sometimes but it’s too much fun.

    !@ I saw a page the other day where they had invented a complete new punctuation mark for sarcasm @! We really need that sometimes don’t you think?

  63. Big O,
    I would suggest that you review medical journal articles from industrialized countries like Israel, Turkey, Indonesia, and Malaysia where polygamy is legal,recognized and socially acceptable for Muslims.
    Women do not for the most part like polygamy nor do they think it is beneficial to them.
    The only way to “sell it” to women is to tell them it is necessary for their “salvation” or exaltation.
    Then do they really have a choice ?

  64. The FLDS handle that – marry them before they grow a mind of their own. That fixes it!

  65. Yeah but see Stamp, that is just the point. “from what you heard” It would not work for people like you. (I don’t mean that in a disparaging way… it’s for believers only)

    It doesn’t only happen in the bedroom. It’s a lot of work.

    But you are on the right track just a long ways back. (you gotta get past the slums) It really is about responsibility first, so obviously if you don’t know what you are doing and can’t handle the responsibility you shouldn’t be doing it. Which is most people, on that we agree.

  66. S

    The math is, boot out all the undesirables and tell them to repent from afar – because their better half adds to their booty of booty.

  67. S, If they don’t like it, then yes, they probably don’t have a choice, but that’s not really a reflection on the polygamy. It’s a reflection on the culture. You can probably find a whole damn lot of unhappy monogamists there too if you use the same broad comb.

  68. I am aware of that – but again, back to the medical research papers.
    Women find polygamy MUCH LESS satisfactory than monogamy, and women in polygamous marriages have higher rates of psychiatric illness than monogamous women do in a VERY statistically significant way.

  69. Blogo

    From what I am seeing, “believers” are the ones struggling in these stories.

    What happens if a woman wants out? Why, the pesky polygamist allows her to leave and take the clothes on her back – oh wait, no, thats not right, in the FLDS, she is sent to a house of hiding and punished.

    And those men whose families are taken away, reassigned, and reassigned time and again, isnt that a lovely story.

    Is that something you believe in?

  70. you see, betty, Rodney is real good example of what I am talking about. You thought that was about being tried and convicted for underage bigamy, and then only getting a slap on the wrist. But that case was really about custody. But that hardly even got mentioned by people who only get the “news”.

    Blogogre said this on July 28, 2010 at 9:39 PM

    Blogogre, could you please elaborate on your comment above? It is my understanding that there were 2 different cases involving Rodney Holm. One was a CIVIL case involving custody of the children he had with Ruth Stubbs. The other was a CRIMINAL case involving him having sex/children with an underage girl in a bigamous relationship. That case is the one where he got a slap on the wrist with only serving a year of work release.

    I don’t understand your comment above. I’d appreciate your explaining further. Thanks!

  71. !@ Stamp .. you really are the rubber stamp !@
    I tried to say before… and it got deleted, so I’m trying say this very carefully, but it really seems to me like you are not interested in the discussion. Everything is just another opportunity for you interject venom. Most of that “stuff” has been greatly exaggerated. Sure the injustices are there, but they really are aberrations. If someone said Catholic Priest — you would instinctively have to interject “Pedofile” no matter what the context. You are doing the same thing to FLDS and it’s really unfair to whole lot of good people.

    Even the term “FLDS” is somewhat erroneous. Because it can also mean literally: fundamentalist latter day saint, and NOT be part of the warren FLDS incorporated group.

  72. What about Allen Steed? Doesn’t it seem fair that someone should actually be found guilty of rape before we put someone on trial as an accomplice? If Steed is without question, guilty of raping Elissa, why wasn’t he put on trial first? Not only that, why does his trial keep getting delayed? Again, if the evidence of rape is overwhelming, his conviction will be a sure thing so why is the state dragging their feet on an open and shut case of rape?

  73. I don’t understand your comment above. I’d appreciate your explaining further. Thanks!

    ————-

    Sorry but no. I’m not going to try to explain it any further. What’s on the record is a good place to leave it.

  74. because bilbo, Allen was also a victim of warren. Nobody, not even Elissa at the time, wanted to see him or her parents to do hard time over it. They were using him to get to warren.

    !@ Public outrage is like wine. It gets better and better with age @!
    (it’s also very fickle)

    But that’s a good point, i think, and if they decide to retry the accomplice case, they probably will want make sure they have a conviction in place first. I think they would rather let texas do the dirty work now.

  75. “….Most of that “stuff” has been greatly exaggerated. Sure the injustices are there, but they really are aberrations…”

    Really ? What stuff ?

    That is your opinion – a man’s opinion, I might add, NOT a proven scientific FACT.

    Where is the systematic study which shows that the “stuff” is exaggerated ?

    What efforts have been made by the fundamentalist community to prove systematically that the “stuff” is an aberration, in terms of scientific research ?

    Why is it that the prevalence of sexual abuse in fundamentalist communities is higher than the prevalence of sexual abuse in the non fundamentalist population of Utah ?
    There IS data which indicates that.

    Why is the use of antidepressant medication in Utah the highest in the nation ?

  76. Well I agree S, the women who “find” monogamy more satisfactory should certainly stick with that. But I also think that there should be some allowance made for women who find that polygamy is more satisfactory for them.

    [ Is that something you believe in? ]

    Stamp, the long answer to that is:

    NO!

    And I think you are rude as hell to keep asking me questions like that. As if you really wondered? No you don’t, you just use everything I say as reason to interject your dogma.

    !@ Maybe it really is you are someone else @!

  77. There is NO scientific evidence that women find it more satisfactory for them – or more advantageous anywhere in the medical literature.

    The only time women develop the idea that polygamy is advantageous is when coercion is present – and I certainly DO NOT believe in that.

    There is NOTHING in Christian dogma which states that salvation is based on marital status, in fact, celibacy is celebrated in the New Testament as a higher calling.

    Any religion which claims that marital status somehow determines their salvation is NOT Christian.

    Good night.

  78. Well S, I do respect your opinion

    And I admit I’m not in a position to defend or challenge the “findings”. But I really think a lot of that was “found” with the end in mind.

    In other words, I don’t share your opinion that it’s all, all that scientific really. I have read some of the “stuff” There is a great deal of circular reasoning going on with some of that, and sources that are dubious at best … one media using another as their resource. Expert Shmexperts who will one say one way and other say the other, and “the farther away from home they are the more of an expert they become.” Liberal Academics who are working over time to make sure “alternate lifestyle” is socially accepted but exclude anything that generates “unsustainable” population etc etc etc.

    I have also seen work that even though they present data, I disagree with their conclusion of what it says or means. An awful lot of conjecture going in there. And don’t try telling me that scientists never do that. And when they do they are usually very invested in defending their conclusions at all cost.

    It’s social engineering… that’s what is really going on. I’m not saying it’s all bad either. Some things really do need to change, especially when it comes to correcting injustice.

    Well, I may be getting in over my head here… I better go be quiet for a while now. lol

  79. S, I’m living that higher calling. lol

  80. O hohum blogo, Joe Smith was a cousin of sorts, I’m not new at this. I don’t believe you can account for all the males, heh. I can’t be accommodated into the LDS or FLDS fairytales.
    Old archaeologists don’t believe prehistory accounts for groups like LDS or the FLDS cult. It is a cult.
    WOMEN don’t believe such malarky, brainwashed children may.
    There is no religion called sexual assault of children, we call that felony.
    So is bigamy a felony.
    FLDS has a whole lot other criminal aspects. I could mention some but to keep it short and current, their record with civil rights and human rights. Taxes. Cheating. Lying. O my heck, don’t you know why they keep FLDS out of the courtrooms.

  81. You obviously have not read the studies I am referencing which were all performed by administering anonymous surveys on marital satisfaction, depression scales, (ie Beck, Hamilton) anxiety scales and analysis of admissions for psychiatric treatment for polygamous wives in Muslim countries.
    The anonymous surveys were scored by computers, and the statistical analysis was performed by computers as well.

    That is objective human subjects research.
    I don’t know what studies you are referring to.
    Don’t dismiss something which you have not even read.

    The study design doesn’t leave much open to opinion or conjecture – and the findings are as I previously mentioned NEGATIVE for women.
    These studies were mostly performed by Muslim male physicians and psychologists who were religious, and polygamy is perfectly acceptable in Islam, and their findings did not make them politically popular.

    One would only hope that fundamentalist Mormons would show an interest in the scientific study of the mental health of the women, men, and children in their culture – so far, no interest is shown.
    Apparently there is not even interest in eradicating fumarase deficiency by preventing intermarriage of cousins, causing much suffering to those with the disorder.

    Why?

  82. S, I’m living that higher calling. lol

    Pax Vobiscum, brother ogre.

  83. Well Granny, at least I gave you another chance to say it all again.

    Why is a good question S. I’m adamantly opposed to inbreeding. That is a bad idea.

    And I agree a study like that with Mormon Fundamentalists would be interesting reading. But honestly, what scientist in this political environment would dare conclude anything different.

    !@ If they didn’t go along they would have to bury it and retire broke !@

  84. I don’t understand your comment above. I’d appreciate your explaining further. Thanks!

    ————-

    Sorry but no. I’m not going to try to explain it any further. What’s on the record is a good place to leave it.

    Blogogre said this on July 28, 2010 at 11:20 PM

    OK, Blogogre, you started this line of conversation, but you now just cut it off when I asked for clarification. I don’t think that’s very nice. I’m not a mind reader. Is it because I hit a nerve with my question and you didn’t know there where 2 different cases?

    Hey man, what gives with you? And if you won’t communicate, then where do I go to find out “What’s on the record” ? I don’t like punks who hit and run and play games.

    This blog is about substantiation of postings. Your “never mind, I don’t want to tell you any facts to support what I said” is BS here.

  85. Yeah one or more Utah bunch sure has cornered the market on schizophrenia.

  86. BO, btw I’m so old my info didn’t really come from any current political regime.

  87. Even the term “FLDS” is somewhat erroneous. Because it can also mean literally: fundamentalist latter day saint, and NOT be part of the warren FLDS incorporated group.

    Blogogre said this on July 28, 2010 at 11:12 PM

    Blogogre, Warren Jeffs’ group calls themselves the FLDS. They are incorporated in Utah as the FLDS – Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints. If someone else is using that name, then they are infringing on the name that Warren Jeffs’ group is using. If you think that others can use this name, then take it up with FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop. I doubt that he’ll think it’s “erroneous”.

  88. The mathematical structure you refer to that makes polygyny “work” is simply trickery. It DOESN’T work — period. The only time polygyny works is if you have regular battles that create a puacity of males. We don’t live like that anymore, which is good.

    Honestly, you have a point that there are some (very rare) women who might actually find polygyny preferable. However, as long as there are religions like Mormonism and Islam that claim a woman’s eternal soul is on the line if she declines polygyny, then it will be coercion and not choice. And as long as religions like that exist, polygamy should not be legal.

    Furthermore, research into polygyny also shows that children do not do as well in polygynous situations as in monogamous situations. They have a higher mortality rate, less success in education — although not less intelligence, and higher rates of anxiety, self esteem and other issues.

    If you wish to ignore the research and call it “circular reasoning” that is certainly your privilige. All I want to see is a situation where all women, even those with the misfortune to be born into fundamentalist Mormon communities or Jewish, Islamic or other polygyny preaching religions will actually have the freedom to say “No” to polygyny and underage marriages.

  89. Oh, and the disability S. refers to is Asperger’s. I have Asperger’s which is a form of autism. I tend to see things in black and white and to have difficulty in deciphering social conventions. That is probably part of the reason your “humor” unsettles me so much. You are deliberately tring to complicate interactions when I already find them difficult.

    Calling you “angry person” was a description and not an insult. You say that you find it amusing but it is very clear to me that you are very angry and it is spilling out to other people. I don’t mind interacting with you when you are clear and make your points. I have no use for your cryptic comments OR for your “well if you knew the truth you’d understand but I’m not going to tell you, I’m just going to mock you for not knowing what I do” lines.

  90. Even the term “FLDS” is somewhat erroneous. Because it can also mean literally: fundamentalist latter day saint, and NOT be part of the warren FLDS incorporated group.

    Blogogre said this on July 28, 2010 at 11:12 PM

    CPark, AUB, Kingstons, Allreds, Harmstons or it could include many of the others listed as FLDS on the Rick Ross cult site.

    blogorge it would be great if you shared some of that history with the others.

    If one group goes down or “fizzles out” another will become larger and control in different ways.

    How many keys were passed out?

  91. Walton, the other Utah polygamous groups you listed just consider themselves “Mormons” or “Fundamentalist Mormons”. They don’t call themselves FLDS – “Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints”. Only Warren Jeffs’ sect call themselves that.

  92. If Steed is without question, guilty of raping Elissa, why wasn’t he put on trial first? Not only that, why does his trial keep getting delayed?

    bilbo said this on July 28, 2010 at 11:17 PM

    bilbo, Allen Steed’s “trial keep[s] getting delayed” because he has high priced attorneys who keep filing asinine motions in a court that has more criminal cases than they can handle. It does not mean that Allen Steed is innocent of raping Elissa Wall.

  93. Rebeckah, I commend you on your posting that this Blogogre is an “angry person”. He/she/it often posts comments and then uses “lol” at the end of them. I find these comments anything BUT humorous and wonder why he/she/it uses the “lol”. Maybe he/she/it thinks the comment is humorous/funny, but he/she/it is probably the only one who does.

  94. Oh BTW Walton, only 2 keys were passed out. One to the house and one to the van.

  95. “You thought that was about being tried and convicted for underage bigamy, and then only getting a slap on the wrist. But that case was really about custody.”

    Yes, I did. Must have been the actual charges that threw me off. Once again you have superior, but secret information, I see.

  96. Blogogre wrote “kwim?”

    Nope. I don’t. And apparently, I’m not alone.

  97. “They take the 50/50 gender balance and do freakinomics of left-over men with it, but if you take age difference into the formula then polygamy can actually work on a limited basis. (like 90 year old “troglodytes” with 90 wives kind of messes it all up for everyrone lol)”

    Actually, the ONLY way there are enough women for all men to have multiple wives is if young men marry women over 40. If older men marry younger wives, they are only taking those wives from younger men. There is no way to change that math. There certainly is no way to justify one man having 80 wives, ethically.

  98. “[ Is that something you believe in? ]”

    It is something I believe in. However, I also don’t believe there are any women who find polygamy more satisfactory. I think it only exists out of either extreme economic hardship or religious indoctrination. Every woman who I have hears speak of it who is fundamentalist mormon speaks about how the hardships of polygamy make you a better person. Makes me laugh. They could stop hitting their heads against the wall, but it improves character! What a line of garbage they fell for.

    The thing is, Blogogre, you think that we don’t want to discuss this because we have closed minds. The truth is, I’ve discussed this to death for more than two years. Every pro argument I hear sounds exactly like 20 I’ve already heard. The more research I do, the more I find that the common sense answer I had at first was true. No woman wants to share her husband any more than a man wants to share his wife.

  99. Brian Mitchell has been KWIM ing too lately.

  100. Blogo

    Not being rude, just pointing out that you think polygamy can work, and Im showing you exactly how it isnt working. (But you knew that)

    The True Blue FLDS believe in Warren doing this, yet in your post at Rons it points to your displeasure at Warren, since before he was der profit, and your warnings to others. So that tells us you were in the party on some level before this went down. And thats, OK, I wouldnt condemn you for it, it just makes it easier to know where you are coming from.

    So, maybe he asked you to leave, and it seems you still believe in polygamy – just not Warren polygamy. I think I got that right.

    Around and around you will go, its been shown its not Warren that is the problem, but polygamy and for many reasons. Its not just like two gay guys having a mutual affair.

    Explore the social aspects, you will see women treated as chattle with no property or rights.

    But maybe thats how you like it, kwim?

  101. No Stamp, I don’t think he likes it that way.
    He is pretty reasonable, even though his math regarding polygamy is fuzzy. The math doesn’t work out unless young men are marrying much older women – which is NOT what happens in Mormon or Islamic polygyny.

  102. We’ll see, I guess if we get more nightly visits from the Big O. But, here’s a clue. He thinks the Holms case was about custody.

    Translate: Uppity, apostate woman trying to use the gentiles to take away the property of the righteous priesthood father. It’s not that anyone is really serious about enforcing the law against under aged sex or bigamy. Nah. She was just using the outside world to have power over the man to whom God gave her and her babies. Cause, God made women FOR the man. kwim?

  103. Shoot. Edit key needed here; been working too hard and now I can’t type. “if we get more nightly visits from the Big O we’ll figure what he really means eventually”

  104. FYI –
    Big O has previously told me he does not believe in coercive polygamy, or arranged polygamous marriages, and that he does not think that polygyny works well unless the two women involved are very close friends and they both consent to the arrangement.
    Then and only then does he think polygyny works, and has he never stated that this arrangement would be superior to monogamy.
    I cannot say that I agree with him, however studies do show that polygyny is better tolerated by all concerned when it is practiced in that fashion, as opposed to a coercive, hostile, and arranged polygamous marriage.

  105. He does not think that polygyny works well unless the two women involved are very close friends and they both consent to the arrangement.
    ———-
    I think unicorns aren’t really nice unless they also have wings and rainbow colors.

    Not to sound flip but this whole rosy-eyed version of polygamy sounds rather out of character for oogy-boogy ogreman. It also sounds like a rather silly male fantasy with no feet in the reality of actual marriage.

    Dear Penthouse, I never thought anything like this would ever happen to me….

  106. I agree Ellie, please note I am attempting to explain to Stamp what Ogre’s positions are.
    I certainly do not concur with Ogre at all.

  107. I had to read my husband the unicorn and penthouse joke. That’s was excellent. Wiping tears from my eyes.

    Has anyone but me ever noticed that we don’t get polygynous women arguing here about how wonderful it is? My guess is that they are too busy chasing their husband’s favorite wife’s kids to sit down at the computer.

  108. Yes, no polygynous women extolling the virtues of polygyny. Only men. No surprises there.

  109. I’ve seen polygamy work at least for one of my clients. However, I’d add a few considerations to how well it was working.

    My client was wife #2. I have no idea whether wife #1 liked it or not.

    The other fact is that the husband had more than enough resources to support both wives. So there was no competition between the wives for money.

    I’m neither pro or anti polygamy. However, the scientific data seem to indicate that is has many detrimental effects.

  110. I’ve known a few people who have tried it, not in a religious context, but with much more sincerity and commitment than I think comes under the heading of “polyamorous”. I realize that monogamous marriages often last a very short time, but all of the ones I’ve known about have lasted less than three years. And the ones where there was a couple and they added a third party all dissolved completely, destroying the original couple.

  111. There is published data which indicates that 40% of polygamous marriages in the AUB dissolve within the first year of the marriage. (see Janet Bennion’s Book, Women of Principle)

    That is a very high divorce rate for the first year of marriage.

    Polygamous marriages in Indonesia and Malaysia have divorce rates in excess of 70%, because in those countries the first wives often have the ability,education, and resources to initiate a divorce action. Other Islamic countries are not so liberal when it comes to granting divorces to women.

  112. S, I was meaning to ask you about the divorce findings. You answered my question already. If women (and men too… to be fair) can freely leave relationships they usually do eventually. Relationships are always difficult at best. This is why commitment is such a big deal going in. And religion too for that matter.

    I’m sure you have heard of the Coolidge Effect. This is certainly not unique to polygamy. In fact almost all cultures have some version of polygamy by whatever name or other and It does usually have a lot to do with status. (jmho) But like they say, the only thing worse than divorce is staying in a bad marriage.

    It isn’t hard to see what happens when the liberal / libertine mindset becomes politically correct. The irony is that we call it civilization.

    Betty your take on the Rodney case wasn’t really so far off. That was pretty good, Even a bit funny. You missed the part where he (his case) was being used politically on both sides like a pawn. Now if you just took the sarcasm and your angry venom out of it and wrote it like it was the truth without the invective you might see how it happens.

    Don’t foget that you brought it up, and I was only trying to illustrate that there is usually lots more going on behind the scene than what gets into the report, and especially what gets into the news as your “sources”.

  113. you might see how it happens. ….
    …..

    Not to imply betty, that I think you have to agree with it. “First seek to understand” kwim?

  114. ellie, unicorns are a figment of your imagination and penthouse your hubands imagination (just a guess)

    But polygamy actually does happen and there are people who do actually believe in it and think it’s a good thing. Nobody said it would be easy.

  115. oh opps soryy, ellie, it was betty’s husband with the imagination, i got the posts mixed up.

  116. So long as bigamy’s a felony and can land one in state prison it’s probably not a good idea. Especially in the remaining states with common law marriage. Like Texas.

    Oi.

  117. Worse of course if it’s in combination with another felony, such as sexual abuse of an underaged girl child. Or more than one.

  118. You know, I bet some people really believe in unicorns and think they’re a good thing. If you search hard enough, you could find someone who believes anything.

    Marriage isn’t about “easiness.” In my mind, marriage is a commitment and an exclusive contract. I don’t see how polygamy has anything to do with either of those things.

  119. Unfortunately most women when asked in anonymous surveys do NOT believe polygamy is a good thing.
    People often say they approve of or enjoy something because it is expected that they approve of or enjoy something.
    When anonymous surveys are taken, and there is no fear of being politically incorrect, the scientific finding is that women don’t enjoy polygyny or think it is to their benefit.

  120. BlogOgre wrote “Now if you just took the sarcasm and your angry venom out of it and wrote it like it was the truth without the invective you might see how it happens.”

    Newsflash, BO. Your opinion does not equal truth. It just equals your opinion. Just as my opinion does not equal truth.

    You can drop the patronizing act. It’s not winning you any points here.

    The children are not property. The patriarchy of the FLDS does not have any special standing in the law, or it certainly shouldn’t. The fact that Ruth left her marriage, her religion and her home does not make her subhuman or unworthy of being a mother to her children. The gender of the parent does not define who automatically gets the children, but what is best for the children in the eyes of the judge in a custody hearing.

    Yes, I suspect that Ruth was used by prosecutors to get a message to the group. But, you know, I don’t really have a problem with that because the law really, really NEEDS to get to them.

    And I think I have plenty of reason to be angry at religiously mandated gender superiority. Had it up to here and then some, in my own life and in the news around the world. Fortunately, the Civil Rights act makes my opinion in that law. You and anyone else who indulges in it can kiss my wrinkly pink behind.

  121. I have been seeking to understand this subject for quite some time now, and like I said, I don’t think you are more qualified than anyone else to school me. You write very much like some other FLDS men I have chatted with. In other words, you look down on all women and talk to them like they are children. I think I covered my reaction to that above.

  122. I’m talking about what happend betty dear, not your mine or anyone elses opinion. I’m just saying if you did that you would likely get closer to the truth… ie. what actually went down there. I’m not really even disagreeing with some of it… your opinion, I mean.

  123. Although I don’t want relationships on the side in my marriage, I don’t think they are the same as a second marriage. I think that argument is exceptionally lame. Commitment and sex are two different things, in the best sense they work together, but not always. A mistress does not have access to the retirement fund, is not at the table for Christmas dinner and is not generally involved in the wedding ceremony of the kids. Also, polygamists overplay the amount of running around the average person does, male or female. We hear a lot about the sex lives of celebrities, but we don’t really know if status equals more sex. Does anyone know how often Warren Buffet gets it or Bill Gates? Does that really matter to a discussion on family structure in society?

    The Coleridge effect concerns how often a man can get it up in a single day; by comparing to roosters, it is suggested that they can do this feat more often with different partners than with one. Whether or not this is true, it is pretty meaningless as an argument for polygamy, and of course Coleridge did not mean it to be that when he said it, if he actually said it at all. He was responding to his wife

    Nope, that whole argument is completely erection centric. Because a man can have more erections in a single day with mutliple partners, then the whole structure of the family should change to meet his erection potential? RIIIIIIGGGGHHHT. Cause, after all, what’s more important than erections and why should one partner not have an abundance while other partners go without?

    For one thing, equity, mutual respect and care for the children are individually and collectively more important than multiple daily erections. And if I had a man who couldn’t control himself enough to limit his needs to once a day in order to keep me happy, then I’d tell him not to let the screen door hit him on the way out.

  124. BlogOgre,

    You are not giving us any indication that you have a reason to know more about what really happened than anyone else. In fact, if you were involved in the group at the time, I would expect you to be giving the standard priesthood party line about what happened. And gosh, that sure sounds like what you are saying. That is so biased as to be unbelievable. Were you a policeman, where you on the prosecuting team? Did you pour over court transcripts? No. You’re full of hot air and self importance.

    And I’ve got real work to do, so later.

  125. Well, I give Blogo two points for turning his nose up at the last regime. Dont know how that all went down, but from what the post on Rons says, there seems to a light bulb that works up there.

  126. Ogre,

    There was a research study in Africa in the Journal of AIDS which investigated the number of extramarital liasions in males in polygamous vs. monogamous marriages.

    The incidence of extramarital liasions in both groups of men was approximately 40%.

    Polygyny does not therefore decrease extramarital sexual activity in men – at least in Africa. There are no other published studies on the topic of marital infidelity & polygyny in the literature aside from those performed in Africa.

    Other studies in the same region identified a higher incidence of marital infidelity in women living in polygamous marriages.

    Polygyny does NOTHING to reduce the number of extramarital affairs people have, despite claims by pro-polygamists to the contrary – in fact, it increases the risk of a woman being unfaithful to her spouse.

  127. Well I’ve had a realization. This morning I was thinking about my post to Blogogre where I explained that I have Asperger’s. I realized that Blogogre’s posts DO make me angry. I struggle with interpreting communication when I’m face to face with people and a struggle more over the internet. When someone comes on who makes snarky and/or cryptic remarks and then claims some sort of amusement or “victory” over the responses, I feel used and manipulated. It makes me angry. I still feel, however, that the person making those comments is angry too. Angry people often express themselves inappropriately and I can see an angry person gaining satisfaction in angering other people. Kind of a shallow satisfaction, though. “Gee, I’m not the only angry person anymore.” isn’t really that satisfying in the long run. Blogogre, I hope someday you are able express yourself in ways that lead to greater understanding and pleasant exchanges. Until then, you have my sympathies.

  128. Yeah, it sounds like he’s been through it like so many others. I dont think he is one of the abusers, but probably one of the male victims.

  129. I’ve actually gained a new respect for Canadian jurisprudence. The fact that they can have a test case without someone actually having to go to jail first seems like a much more reasonable system.

    Ultimately the question is probably the same in both the US and Canada – is religious polygamy harmful enough that the state has a compelling interest in outlawing it? The data seem to say yes, but it is a discussion that needs to be had to justify our laws.

  130. OK – hold on Rebeckah –

    You just admitted that you ARE angry at Blogo’s posts. While I’m not justifying Blogo’s behavior, perhaps what he’s doing is reflecting your anger back at you.

    It appears to this outsider that both of you are expressing anger either overtly or covertly. So perhaps you need to also learn to be able [to] “express yourself in ways that lead to greater understanding and pleasant exchanges.”

    It’s funny, I still remember you and Regina Erickson having Asperger smack downs.

  131. Did Regina have Asperger? That might explain all the….you know…what I mean…not a sentence….anywhere.

  132. I think that part of his reason for being here is to amuse himself by making us angry. I’m trying to decide how much I am amused by talking to him and not to fall into the trap. But in any event, I’m leaving for my annual trip into the Middle Ages in a few days, so I will be quite scarce in these parts. I should be packing food bins right now.

  133. Ron,
    It looks like you have been very busy on your blog as of late.
    Why don’t you post some links here to update your readers regarding your activities on your blog ?
    I see that Ogre left a comment about Warren Jeffs on your blog… seems Ogre was never a fan of Warren’s …. hmmmm

  134. Betty, what is on the medieval menu ?

  135. Betty

    Oh, yeah, Regina was Aspergers. And, yeah, you’re right, it really showed.

  136. Regina – lol blogorge if that is you I am glad your health has improved.

    The use of the word venom-the extreme rightousness-the little lol’s and mystery.

    the so many circles of this story

    You put your right side in,
    You put your right side out;
    You put your right side in,
    And you shake it all about.
    You do the Hokey-Pokey,
    And you turn yourself around.
    That’s what it’s all about!

    Take it from here stamp

  137. “You just admitted that you ARE angry at Blogo’s posts. While I’m not justifying Blogo’s behavior, perhaps what he’s doing is reflecting your anger back at you.”

    Yes, that’s why I posted my realization. I hadn’t properly processed my feelings — sometimes I have trouble understanding my own social cues. 🙂

    “It appears to this outsider that both of you are expressing anger either overtly or covertly. So perhaps you need to also learn to be able [to] “express yourself in ways that lead to greater understanding and pleasant exchanges.””

    I was kind of trying for that with this revelation about my own feelings. It seemed honest to admit to what I had come to understand.

    “It’s funny, I still remember you and Regina Erickson having Asperger smack downs.”

    Me too. It really made her mad when I said we were similar. 😉

    Walton, I don’t think for a moment the Blogogre is Regina. Not her writing style at all.

  138. I don’t know Rebeckah. and really it doesn’t matter.

    But I do notice the very same “put down attitude”. I have become very fond of some of you guys and I guess it bothered me right off that blogorge came in riding on a high horse.

    There was a guy from Montana that rode a horse very similar to Blogorge. Talked in circles and left little jabs here and there. Filled up space mostly. jmo

  139. Polygyny does NOTHING to reduce the number of extramarital affairs people have, despite claims by pro-polygamists to the contrary – in fact, it increases the risk of a woman being unfaithful to her spouse.
    ————————–

    One of the more astute observations I have seen. imho. Ha! polygany IS extramarital No? No matter how you try to structure “relationships” it still boils down to the one on one dynamics of attraction and interaction. Cum what may. Whether it’s serial monogamy or polygamy or polyandry or even homosexuality.

    S, I can’t help but think how fun it would be to go over all your findings line by line and help you digest them. It will never happen but it’s an intriguing idea.

  140. Blogogre, I hope someday you are able express yourself in ways that lead to greater understanding and pleasant exchanges. Until then, you have my sympathies.
    —————
    Kum by yah. And you have mine Rebeckah. I see things in black and white too… maybe I just haven’t been diagnosed.

    !@ I could write a book @!

    @ the blog… so no one can take it personal (unless they should)

    Yes I have seen more than my share of injustice too. But the truth is I am not angry. I’m way past that long since. It just opened my eyes to the bigger picture. The reason is simply that I already know how you are scripted. You think you know how the FLDS ( .et .al) has been mindfukd, but you are not willing to look within and see how much of what you think has been deliberate programming. I pretty much know all of the arguments and where they came from so nobody need repeat them for my benefit.

    With the exception of Ron and S, I am seldom surprised by the response I get. I can almost tell what most of you will say before you even know yourself.

    sorry 4.48 was me too… obviously

  141. Maybe black and white thinking is a symptom of your FLDS programming, B.O. They seem to favor simple dichotomies, like “good sweet Priesthood people” and “evil bitter apostates”.

  142. as opposed to what ellie, complex dichotomies where everything is gray … or obscure? or oh ya… rainbows. FLDS “programming” is also just a figment of your imagination. You would be very surprised how diverse they really are.

  143. FLDS “programming” is not a figment of my imagintion; it’s a reflection of your imagination. If you want to talk about “programming” clouding the minds of others, well, here’s this giant plank in your eye, too.

    You know the old saying that there are two types of people in the world: those who divide everything and everybody into a couple of categories, and those who don’t. But seriously. Black-and-white thinking is common enough in children and teens. Healthy adults tend to leave that kind of thinking behind since it leads extreme, sometimes destructive behavior.

    I wish I could be *more* surprised at how diverse the FLDS are. For instance, I so much wish I would hear some FLDS people say “You know, we’re not going to go in for this underage marriage bullshit.” and stood by it. Because, if there are FLDS families out there like that, so far they’ve kept mum.

  144. S. re medieval menu.

    The first week, there are only about 1/4 of the people there and we eat pretty normal camp food, like stews and grilled meat and pasta with cheese. We even (gasp) eat on paper plates sometimes or walk down to the food court for gyros. We try to be medieval, but it’s not a production. During war week, one cook takes a night and fixes a dinner for everyone that is researched and appropriate with proper place settings and table cloths. One cook is doing English beef and barley stew with mushroom pie, one is doing Spanish chicken with pomegranate sauce on rice, one is doing a Roman pork cooked with figs, one does middle eastern spicy lamb with lots of little side dishes and pickles very much like a modern mezza.

    I have a lot of food allergies, especially to grains, so I always travel with alternative grains and pastas. Because I run a communal kitchen in a camp ground for 30+ people for two weeks, I bring things like salt and cinnamon so I don’t run broke buying it there and then throwing most of it away. I also take local honey from the farmer’s market, my husband’s favorite tea, and little treats that I hide away in the pantry throughout the year. I have a tin of fois gras, for instance, may as well have it now cause they are outlawing it in France. I’m taking some of my perfectly modern preserves to give as gifts to people I only see once a year.

    I’m also taking venison steaks, goat leg and lamb stew from the freezer. That will get some dry ice on it but we will have to eat all of it by about Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. And I’m packing my cordials and some hard cider. 8^).

  145. ” I can almost tell what most of you will say before you even know yourself.”

    What arrogant BS.

  146. So betty, how predictable was that response. I rest my case.

    —————

    I wish I could be *more* surprised at how diverse the FLDS are. For instance, I so much wish I would hear some FLDS people say “You know, we’re not going to go in for this underage marriage bullshit.” and stood by it. Because, if there are FLDS families out there like that, so far they’ve kept mum.

    ————-

    Lot’s them out there saying that, and on the record too, but you don’t really want to hear it. What do you expect, are they supposed to email you or something?

  147. Blog
    if lot’s of them are out there and saying it why isn’t it being said on public record or to reporters etc.?

    And don’t count Willie Jessop because he has already been found on video tape lying on the issue…

    The problem those of us “out here” have with believing the statements from those have public interviews is that most of them have a very poor track record on stating facts and when you combine that with reading Warren’s dictations about lying AND the history of not arresting within the community for sexual abuse of young children ….the “we don’t like it” doesn’t add up to much, particularly if behavior with respect to court orders indicates that there will be zero compliance with court orders.

    If those of you who dislike underage marriage were to get together and hold a collective press interview while within the creek and present what verifiable or auditable steps were being taken (annual review of records by a third party) then perhaps the rest of us following this would be inclined to get off your collective backs.

  148. The post to blog at 6:36 pm was me

    HHG

  149. What they say and what they do have been historically different. Look at Sally Jeffs.

  150. Blogo

    You dont think we know what excuses polygamists are going to use too?

    Perhaps you never have seen the list of 50 sumpthin excuses that were compiled.

    But here’s a question for ya. Whats Warren’s excuse?

  151. Warrens excuse? I’d like to know what excuses those in office are making to not uphold the law for 100 plus years.
    I’d like to know what they were thinking when Flora and the hundreds of unclaimed teens asked for help.

    Warrens excuse is that he believed the stuff that was told him and the money and greed helped it all along. Just as it has for the others that call their Church a different name but follow the same practices. Fundamentalist Mormons.

    Warren isn’t the only one. As soon as this thins out another will grow or others will grow. Willies will be poppin up all over the place.

  152. Walton – I paraphrase for Warren

    “The Devil Made me Do It”

    He said about as much from prison.

  153. Well, you might have noticed by now that I have a keen grasp of the obvious. So, yeah, that might have been predictable, but I’m OK with that.

  154. “but you don’t really want to hear it”

    How would we hear it? On what record? How recently?

  155. Betty,
    What a wonderful menu, and what a labor of love to produce it.

    Blogogre, I would be happy to have the discussion as you requested – privately if you prefer, or to give you electronic copies of the documents which I referenced.

  156. Stamp- Flip Wilson- The Devil Made me do it. (The Devil made me buy this dress)

  157. Haven’t thought about Flip Wilson in a long time.

  158. Betty, it sounds like your adventure will be a taste buds extravaganza. I wish I could tag along and devour such exotic dishes. Have a grand time!

  159. Rebeckah, I admire your forthrightness and fortitude. Forget about the BlogAHole.

  160. Thanks! It’s sort of like Christmas and a family reunion to me. I’m tired, I’m old, but I’m psyched! I’ll check in from time to time when I go to town to do laundry and get bottled water and experience air conditioning.

  161. Know what’s sorta odd, to me, about medieval food and cooking? It’s close enough to what I grew up eating and cooking. Now a feast means meat to SCAdians and most veggies are root veggies or in the cabbage family, we’re all familiar enough with mediterranean and euro herbs. Commoners wouldn’t have eaten much meat often, more likely grains, unless they were fishing people. Sheesh, I baked shortbread for 600+ once, I cut it into squares like cookies. That’s a lot of butter, flour, and shifts in and out of the oven without sleep.

  162. Blog,
    ok I have been “stewing” or perhaps “mulling” over one of your previous comments..

    S. tried to engage you in a conversation of the results of peer reviewed research on the impact/effects/etc. of polygyny and you flipped her off with a comment to the effect: “oh those academics, we know their research is simply ginned up to meet their need to publish” which was then followed by an implication (to me) that you are a better source of information as a practicing polygamist (or at least within the community).

    There are two things that bother me about that

    1. the assumption that all research coming to conclusions you don’t like is bogus…. That ought to at least ring a bell for you that you are not intellectually honest.

    2. the corollary to that assumption is that only those who experience directly something are in a position to evaluate and make judgements about the impact of that “something” based on external observation. That would tend to rule out just about the whole of the human races knowledge base…. and again a self awareness of this issue should lead a person to question their own intellectual honesty.

    Now if a person does have first hand knowledge – sharing it either in a narrative form or as in a list of concrete observations with some associated snipet to verify the validity of those snipets would be useful….

    For example, I pretty much ignored you until I read your statemtn on RIH blog that you had observed W. Jeffs prior to prophethood based on his actions as director of the school… I started listening to you not because your negative opinion validates some set of knee jerk reaction of mine but because you had given a context and a data set to your opinion.

    Hmmm – it is early in the morning and I think I am seeing fire flies INSIDE the house so perhaps I should log off….

    HHG

  163. HHG;

    I don’t think I really flipped S off, and doubt she thought that either. I did say I don’t tend to give something a lot of credibility any more just because someone says it is scientific. The process has been perverted by politics and social engineering just like everything else now days.

    You made some good points, now if you can just apply them as objectively to your own opinion is the real question. I don’t agree with ALL of your conclusions about what I think, but I understand the point you are making. But this door swings both ways.

    I do have a lot of first hand knowledge, but frankly my dear, i don’t give a damn whether it validates me here or not just because I wont say every thing I know. I doesn’t take much of a disagreement here to create firestorm. It doesn’t invalidate intellectual honesty to not say (publicly) everything you know or think just to satisfy someones antagonistic curiosity.

    Mostly all I say is don’t fall for all the allegations and conjecture you get from the media and the blogoshpere and the “apostate narrative”. There is always a lot more to it and most of the time it isn’t the people who know anything that are doing the talking.

    It’s easy to tell people what you think they want to hear. But if the message isn’t what they want to hear, they tend to slay the messenger. Like you said I was doing above. That is especially true in an environment like this.

    But not to worry my bell has been wrung. I know it sounds arrogant to say it but I really do understand the pros and cons down to the subtle nuances of this issue far better than most people.

    Here is a riddle for you that probably only S will get it: You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

  164. And I ask….what doth BlogOgre want? Why appear here out of the blue so to speak and then be very present? What do you want to get out of talking to us?

    “But if the message isn’t what they want to hear, they tend to slay the messenger. Like you said I was doing above”

    It is not clear to me what your message is, and it does not look to me that anyone is slaying you.

  165. I think what Blogogre is saying is that there is a practical reality to polygamy that sometimes validates and sometimes greatly varies from conclusions made from scientific data.

    Saying that polygamy leads to greater depression in women or lower educational achievement in children doesn’t mean that there aren’t many polygamist families where the woman is not depressed and the kids aren’t as dumb as a box of rocks.

  166. Big O-
    As a human subjects investigator, I am confident regarding the results of peer reviewed human subjects research which is conducted in a manner consistent with Good Clinical Research Practices under the supervision of an Institutional Review Board/ Commmittee for the Protection of Human Subjects (IRB)
    Do not dismiss the results of research data which is obtained by experienced investigators when it is performed using objective validated measures and scored & statistically analyzed by a computer.
    The results of the research I am citing are reproducible cross culturally and consistent with the regulations.
    I am happy to discuss the research data with you privately if you like, you may contact Ron to act as an intermediary, his email address is ronlawhouston@gmail.com, he has my permission to provide you with my email address.
    I think you have interesting observations as a former FLDS member which we would value hearing, please proceed. I spend my entire day listening to people with an open mind, I am interested in what you have to say, and I think that others are as well.

  167. Yes Ron is correct, that does not mean that EVERYONE suffers under polygamy, but it is true that 70% of first wives are depressed and dissatisfied with their marriages, 50% of second wives are depressed and dissatisfied with their marriages, and a statistically significant percentage of the children in studies (90% in a recent study) have responded that they did not have sufficient time or attention from their fathers.
    To dismiss this data because your own experience is not consistent with these scientific findings is not valid either, Ogre.
    The experience of a man living in a polygamous community is obviously different than the experience of a women living in such a community, and you need to show a little more compassion and understanding for their experiences, just as you would like us to understand, hear, and value your experiences.

  168. Actually Blogogre S has a lot of good stuff. It has reshaped my views on public policy about polygamy.

  169. The way Blogogre just dismisses “apostate narratives” out of hand is suspicious. B.O. wouldn’t you be classified as an apostate by current FLDS members. It’s an easy way for them to dismiss anything you might say but don’t you think that it’s self-limiting?

    RiH: As far as practical reality of polygamy vs scientific data goes, how far do anecdotal accounts go when they come from those who enjoyed the most priveleged position possible in polygamy? If you’re a polygamous father with insufficient time and resources for everyone, how easy would it be to not notice the unhappiness of others? On top of that, it seems like the FLDS injunction to “keep sweet” is designed to create an appearance of satisfaction and happiness especially in women and children.

    If a childbride smiles in a wedding photo, does that mean she is happy to be married? If a “first wife” is depressed because of her marriage, does she have to cry night and day or it doesn’t count? Is her daily schedule supposed to be something like: wake up, cry in bed, eat breakfast, sob on tile floor in kitchen?

    P.S. Blogogre, I wouldn’t worry too much about creating a “firestorm” on the internet. We’re all grown ups here and as long as you don’t start advocating marrying seven years olds, you’ll probably be fine.

  170. We should never dismiss or devalue anyone’s account of their experiences. We are willing to listen. We also should not dismiss clinical research and evidence based medicine. I would be interested in hearing about your experiences growing up in the community, Ogre. I have an open mind.

  171. Blog

    Hi and good morning. Thanks for responding to my post earlier…

    Here is what I am hearing:

    “The conclusions and opinions that you make about polygamy are based on incomplete facts.”

    You are right – as an outsider I can only make conclusions based on publically available material. I have read many books, I have read all the legal documents posted here and at Brooke’s blogs, I have read large portions of Warren’s diaries, and I have independently of S. searched the peer reviewed published research on polygamy through academic data bases. The information I have read is completely consistent with the snippets that S. posts.

    Despite all that you are correct I can not “know” what I have not experienced.

    “I, B.O., do know stuff you don’t because I am or was a participant”

    Great, may I ask you some questions in what I hope is a sensitive fashion? so that I may be better informed?

    “No, I, B.O., am not here to corroborate your pre-formed knee jerk reactions.”

    O….Kay….. then why are you here?

    Really B.O. it sounds to me as if you are saying we are not as citizens supposed to make judgments on issues that affect greater society based on what information is publicly available. And that simply won’t fly. We are required to do this all the time as citizens of our communities in formulating laws. I may not have experienced mugging, rape, murder, deceit, catastrophic hurricanes and tornadoes, divorce, childbirth, education, driving on a freeway, and on and on, but as a citizen I vote on those issues all the time.

    hhg

  172. Ron,

    Well, yeah, statistics are like that. I also think whether or not a woman in polygamy is depressed may depend upon conditions at the moment; at a different time in her life she might be quite depressed or even want to leave. Or she might be depressed now and do much better later.

    I apologize if I am coming off as not wanting to hear what he has to say. That’s not the case. He’s got my interest.

    I’m not enjoying the emotional side show and I personally think he has a very poor communication style. As he said, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar and maybe he should try that himself. The steady stream of insults to us is not likely to get us to open our minds and hear him. Also, he’s not really coming to a point other than we are closed minded, that I can hear. So, there are two sides to the communication coin.

    I don’t think Blogogre is doing classic trolling behavior; the point is not to disrupt any reasonable conversation and he’s not using ugly distraction techniques like links to offensive sites or use of extreme words like nazi and the like. I do think there’s some attention grabbing going on, though.

  173. HHG wrote “O….Kay….. then why are you here?”

    Yeah, exactly. Other than to tell us all that we are prejudiced and ignorant, I’m not getting what the point is. Shall we all throw ashes on our heads and engage in liberal guilt for the sin of cultural appropriation? I think not, thanks anyway, I got over that in college.

  174. As anyone who has played the game where a story it told to one person and then passed around from person to person in a room can tell you, narratives can easily get distorted or turn to where they no longer have any basis in reality.

    Even people’s recollections of past events can be colored by emotions. If you’ve ever seen two siblings totally disagree on what it was like when they were growing up, you understand that phenomena.

    So, I’m sure Blogogre has seen some apostate narratives that were either outright distortions or possibly total untruths. He also likely actually knows the sources and knows their propensities to exaggerate or to be reliable.

    Blogogre has a point of view for certain; however, I think listening and considering what Blogogre has to say will give you a better perspective to judge for yourself.

  175. Ogre,
    I promise to have no pre-formed knee jerk reactions, and I am open to listening to you in a respectful fashion. I am sorry that you lost your family and were forced to move, that was not right for Warren Jeffs to do to you. I will only explore, interpret, and be supportive of anything you might want to say now.

  176. Reading with much interest.

    Questions: 1. If the media has it so wrong why has it been backed up in the court system?
    2. If the media has it wrong how would the average reader know it is wrong unless those like blogorge or others speak out and back it up with proof?
    3. How does a man with over 50 wives and over 110 children support his families?

  177. I think everyone is interested in hearing what he has to say. Maybe he will return later – I hope he feels comfortable doing so.

  178. Walton here’s my answers:

    1. The media doesn’t have it all wrong, but they certainly don’t have it all right either. Obviously facts confirmed in a court of law are confirmation of what the media says; however, there have been reports in the media that have also turned out to be horribly wrong.

    2. One of the reasons I started following this issue was to see what was fact, what was fiction, and what was hyperbole. You need to gather information, consider sources and make decisions for yourself. Some truths are more truthy than others.

    3. Now that one beats the hell out of me. It seems you’d almost need some sort of pyramid scheme to make it work.

  179. for Walton;

    1. The inquisition was backed up by Papal Bull too. The social engineering is shaping the law. Some of that is a good thing. Some of it is well… bull.
    2. Some of it they will just never know. That’s part of the reality.
    3. I don’t think at that lever all of the responsibility can be met no matter how it is attempted. But ask the question without the unreasonable extreme like a half dozen families or so and there are a lot of ways they can be self-sufficient.

    But hellsakes even in the USA we think it’s ok to tax the rich and redistribute the income. I’m outraged just like you when they tax the poor to support their lavish lifestyle and lascivious conquests. That is not fundamentalism so don’t bother pointing out all historical incidents. I grok that, and monogamist do it too.

    You get no argument from me that a lot of people who are attempting to live the polygamy lifestyle should not be doing it at all. Most of them.

    S. You are jumping to conclusions, but thanks for the sympathy anyway, I know you meant well by it. Certainly there are a lot of cases where it does apply. I’ll give your offer some thought. I’d rather be able to remain anonymous. Maybe you can just post some links or something?

    Betty; Why am I here? I’ve been wondering that myself. Perhaps I should just sTroll on and let you have at it. What happens in an environment like this is that anything said in support of the “flds” (because your perception of flds is only negative) only serves to make the anti-flds crowd more vitriolic and gives them another opportunity to rehash their “data” and say blasphemous things – again. Which then adds to the “preponderance of evidence” btw. I always feel guilty for that.

    I put “apostate narrative” in quotes because it is a controversial term. And yes I would be included in that by their standards i suppose.

  180. Thank you guys for your response and I will continue to think about your answers.

    Blogorge do believe in John Taylors vision? and if so wouldn’t the new “Prophet” or President of the Church overrule Taylors wishes?

  181. Ogre,
    I would post links to more articles, however there would be the problem of copyright violation. I am not interested in your identity, you can use an email account which does not identify you and forward that email address to Ron.
    Please understand that we are not attempting to be blasphemous on this site.
    Many people who post here are believers in God or are spiritual people – I certainly am.
    I think that we are open to hearing about your experiences and impressions regarding growing up in the polygamous community.
    Specifics which could be shared which did not reveal your identity would also be helpful.
    It must be very difficult for you to speak about these issues when you perceive that others will be hostile. I am not hostile.
    Could you tell us why you left ?

  182. Other than to tell us all that we are prejudiced and ignorant, I’m not getting what the point is.

    !@ at least you finally got that @!

    Shall we all throw ashes on our heads and engage in liberal guilt for the sin of cultural appropriation? I think not, thanks anyway, I got over that in college.

    !@ What a great idea. I agree it is a sin. Prove it. But liberal guilt…? hummmm I had no idea that even existed. It’s a novel concept.!@

    I’m sorry but you just make too easy for me sometimes.

  183. Ogre: a man eating giant or a cruel or course person, per my dictionary. So a cruel or course person posting on a blog message baord is also kmown as a troll. Useing the the screen name handle “blogogre” tells us the person’s intent, to be a course cruel person, an internet troll disrupting the conversation.

    IMO the purpose of this blog is to dissmenate information from actual facts such as court records etc. This blog is only site tat posts public court records in one place where all can veiw them. If a person wanted the facts without the news media filters such as Brooke, it’s poste here. Without this blog only some with extreme wealth would be able to gather the public records from the various states involved with the Warren Jeffs polygamy story IMO.

  184. S, If I told my story, then you would see why I don’t tell my story. lol

    It is there, bursting to get out sometimes, I’m sure you sense that. But it’s not going to happen. Sorry for piquing the interest, I don’t do that deliberately, but the more I don’t say… the more it tends to happen. kwim? heh… it even gets called “intellectually dishonest”

  185. I do not think we are all prejudiced or ignorant, Ogre.

    You have not yet produced objective data to refute the accounts of apostate narratives. I am interested in hearing it, if you willing to share it.

  186. Blogorge do believe in John Taylors vision? and if so wouldn’t the new “Prophet” or President of the Church overrule Taylors wishes?

    ——-

    That is kind of a good question. Loaded, but not bad if it’s sincere.

    The answer is that they wouldn’t need to do that. That should be a clue. If they need to “overrule” then it says something about their authority to do it, no? I realize that can get complicated, but food for thought?

    Ok Texas, Maybe I really am in the wrong place. Don’t bother getting up, I’ll just let myself out. I’m sure there are people here who can help you deal with your ogre fear issues. !@ I’m sorry for the distraction.

  187. Is Texas afraid of you ?
    I don’t think so. You have opened the discussion, piqued our interest, offered a different opinion, and then failed to elaborate or provide objective data and then headed for the exit.

  188. I do not think we are all prejudiced or ignorant, Ogre.

    ————

    Ya I know. That was counter sarcasm for betty’s entertainment. If the shoe fits wear it sort of thing.

    I don’t intend to try to refute apostate narrative account. That especially becomes an exercise in futility when people want so badly to believe it.

    You’ve heard the saying that sometimes it dignifies the argument more than it deserves to even recognize it. I think that applies to a lot of this.

  189. Please refute the “apostate narrative” which you have referenced with objective data based on your personal experience or direct observation.

  190. I am very sincere about my questions concerning John Taylors vision. John Taylors vision and the keys are probably the two most important pieces to this never ending puzzle.

    Let me ask the question in a different way. Once one President of a Church dies and other takes over shouldn’t the New President/Prophets vison be the one that they follow?

    I’ll just say it straight out. If they truly believed in Joseph Smith shouldn’t they be following all of the rules of the Church? which would mean to follow the President’s wishes?

    And everyone please understand I am not trying to be a butt head I just want to know the answers.

  191. You’re not being a butthead, that is an excellent question.

  192. You have opened the discussion, piqued our interest, offered a different opinion, and then failed to elaborate or provide objective data and then headed for the exit.
    —————————

    Yes, that about covers it it. Now you have the floor. Don’t have too much fun. I’m not offended, don’t have hurt feelings or anything like that. I can just see that maybe ET is right.

  193. Acacamics, publish publish publish oh yeah BO left out PEER REVIEW

    We’re not really allowed to publish undocumented opinion, FYI

  194. Ogre,
    I did not mean to offend you, if I have in any way, I apologize, that was not my intent.
    I respect ET and value my interactions with her – how is she “right” in this instance – about what in particular ?
    Sometimes you are very cryptic in your communication.

    It must be very difficult for you to talk about your upbringing, you obviously are quite ambivalent about speaking of your past.

  195. Walton;

    The Fundmentalist’s repeated Section 1 of the D&C regularly. Section One wasn’t the first revelation, it was placed as the first one specifically, sort of like preface.

    To be more specific I’m referring to “What I the Lord have said, I have said, and I excuse not myself”.

    I think my answer above still applies: if it was truly a revelation there should be no need to back up or “override” it. Hence… Fundamentalists.

    Like I said that may (and historically does) open the door to lot of religious controversy. But that is my personal opinion.

    (i have to leave for a while … so don’t anyone take it personal when I don’t respond)

  196. Thanks S. I truly am trying to understand.

    I could almost understand why they followed the Joseph Smiths on and off again rules on Polygamy. But once the rules were made by the Acting President of the Church they should have followed the rules.

    When John Taylor had his vision that was the reason for bringing about the whole dispersing of the keys.

    But when the New President took over he should have had all the keys given back to him per se.

    They can’t be really following Joseph Smiths beliefs if they aren’t listening to all the rules that were set up for Church order.

    At least that is how I see it.

  197. Granny… i never said anything about publish or peer review, that was extrapolated by someone else. Go ahead and publish your book. It won’t be the first or last one. The system has flaws… that was my point.

    They say you should never watch sausage or law being made if you don’t want to be repulsed by the process. lol Well, i think “science” is there too.

  198. The “keys” interest me as a former Catholic. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church views that the “keys to the Kingdom” were given to St. Peter by Christ, and the “keys” or apostolic authority were given by St. Peter to each subsequent Pope. Of course Protestants view the “keys” in a more metaphorical sense, with each believer holding the “keys” to the kingdom as a result of their faith and belief in Christ.
    According to Mormon faith and tradition, how did Joseph Smith receive the “keys,” if not from an apostle ?

  199. Wasn’t it the Angel Moroni? Not sure about the spelling.

  200. I’m out of here for awhile. Play nice, kids.

  201. Enjoy your Medieval festival, you certainly worked hard for it!

  202. S, Yes the LDS church believes that Joseph Smith received the “keys” from St. Peter, both keys to the kingdom and apostolic keys.

    From LDS website: Priesthood Keys

    The exercise of priesthood authority in the Church is governed by those who hold priesthood keys (see D&C 65:2; 124:123). Those who hold priesthood keys have the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction. For example, a bishop holds priesthood keys that enable him to preside in his ward. Therefore, when a child in that ward is prepared to be baptized, the person baptizing the child must receive authorization from the bishop.

    Jesus Christ holds all the keys of the priesthood. He has given His Apostles the keys that are necessary for governing His Church. Only the senior Apostle, the President of the Church, may use (or authorize another person to use) these keys for governing the entire Church (see D&C 43:1–4; 81:2; 132:7).

    The President of the Church delegates priesthood keys to other priesthood leaders so they can preside in their areas of responsibility. Priesthood keys are bestowed on presidents of temples, missions, stakes, and districts; bishops; branch presidents; and quorum presidents. A person who serves in one of these positions holds the keys only until he is released. Counselors do not receive keys, but they do receive authority and responsibility by calling and assignment

    Read entire article: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=ab839daac5d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

    Also from LDS website sermon on “keys”

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=7e10dbdcc370c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

    Here’s another article:

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=ca749207f7c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

    From article: Although each Apostle holds all the keys of the priesthood, it is the Lord’s plan that only one man at a time exercise these keys on behalf of the Church. For this reason the senior living Apostle (by date of ordination, not by age) is ordained President of the Church by the Quorum of the Twelve and given the right to exercise all the keys of the priesthood. When he dies, the remaining Apostles ordain the next senior living Apostle (the President of the Quorum of the Twelve) to use his apostolic keys in their fullness as President of the Church.

  203. “The system has flaws… that was my point.”

    Know of a better system than the scientific method ?
    The scientific method is much better at defining the nature of objective reality than conjecture, opinion, guessing, or blind faith.
    Don’t dismiss scientific evidence that you have not even reviewed.

  204. Here’s an interesting opinion piece from a SLC TV station on subject of Warren Jeffs & Brian David Mitchell

    http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/blogs/story/Brent-Hunsaker-Brian-David-Mitchell-vs-Warren/BXkA2ugZ0UCeGziZAneHZQ.cspx

    IMO they are like peas in a pod, both master con men who’s lawyers have tied up the court system for years.

    Has a bit of humor as both wannabe profits sing. IMO wouldn’t be funny to have appear in court and sing a duet!

  205. Know of a better system than the scientific method ?

    ……….

    I sure do. It’s called revelation. Yes, I understand that can be highly suspect and controversial as well, I’m just sayin’ All faith is not necessary “blind” faith. Sometimes scientists even have an epiphany.

    “One man and God is a majority.” Some things will not be changed by a vote, no matter what might be the process or the consensus.

    But hey, we aren’t getting anywhere with this. Science and religion have been arguing since forever. I don’t think they are incompatible by any means, but the argument is inevitable; maybe even necessary.

  206. Well it seems that Anderson Cooper and CNN have PO’d Warren Jeffs lawyers. In a post on Brooke’s blog:

    http://www.tribblogs.com/polygamyfile/2010/07/bugden-on-coopers-report/

    Due to copyright rules can’t post article itself, click link and read for yourselves.

  207. “I sure do. It’s called revelation.”

    Ogre,

    Unfortunately many people who have claimed to receive “divine revelations” have committed mass murders or claimed that God wanted to them to perform illegal or immoral acts –
    Examples –
    the Crusades, burning “heretics” at the stake, Brian David Mitchell abducting and marrying an underage girl, and Warren Jeffs “revelations” regarding his marriage to a 12 yr old.

    Thus people’s perceptions of Divine will often vary from what Divine will actually is.

    God created the objective realities of biology, chemistry, physics – and thus science is divinely revealed truth.

  208. Here’s more from Brooke’s blog, seems the Anderson Cooper 360 show got them all reiled up, the comments section had me ROFLMAO

    http://www.tribblogs.com/polygamyfile/2010/07/anderson-cooper-on-the-ruling/#comment-47555

  209. A Texan: That article gave a pretty astute comparison between the two men, especially this part:

    “Jeffs is the defender of a religion that seems to have forsaken just about every other principal for “The Principal” – namely polygamy.”

    Talk about throwing the baby about with the bathwater!

  210. Remember Abraham and his son Isaac.

  211. Brent Huntsucker has had an ax to grind and he’s not particularly objective on this matter.

  212. What did Brent say that wasn’t true?

  213. and what does Abraham and Isaac have to do with it ?

  214. I think the Abraham and Isaac reference is supposed to show that it is proper to give up basic human “principles” to “serve God”.

  215. “I sure do. It’s called revelation.”

    Yeah, but whose revelation are you going to trust?

    If you ask me people who claim to have revelations are frauds trying to sell their revelation to folks and gain control over them. It’s happened more times than I can count in human history. The ironic part is it seems to keep happening.

  216. Brent Hunsacker is one of the best in the business in Utah. He knows whats up and isnt no fool like Brooke.

  217. We generally don’t allow the ignorant and bigots here, all they need to do is show that they need to find a new nest. You’ve heard the saying that sometimes it dignifies the argument more than it deserves to even recognize it.

  218. O my I just now read the 14 comments at Brooke’s blaugh, lordy those people are predictable and amusing! It can only get better, I guess? Take snacks and drinks.

  219. Thing about revelations, they are great until they get you in trouble.

  220. Yeah, but whose revelation are you going to trust?

    If you ask me people who claim to have revelations are frauds trying to sell their revelation to folks and gain control over them. It’s happened more times than I can count in human history. The ironic part is it seems to keep happening.

    ——-

    Yes Ron, yes indeed. That is very astute. The way to keep it in perspective though, is that when you see someone having relations for someone else, that’s when it starts to get sticky. kwim? “God told me to tell you”…. and it’s am especial problem when the “advice” was unsolicited and vindictive. False prophets are a dime a dozen, and they usually think their calling is help God in his judgments, as if he needed their help to know where lighting should strike next.

    I knew that saying “revelation” would invoke a firestorm, but please don’t take that out of context. I was only saying that it does trump science. If and when.

    S. *sigh* I was calling you out there, I admit. But at least now I know that we don’t need to go into any more detail. Temptation and opportunity can look so much the same sometimes.

  221. And just for the record I don’t believe that warren ever had any divine relations. I just wanted to clear that up in case anyone had any question.

  222. i agree with you blogogre that warren never had any divine revelations and in fact, some of his revelations are actually what naomie told warren he said during the night.

  223. Warren’s Motion for a Speedy Trial is now set for Aug 23 @ 9 in Judge Shumate’s court. I’d really like it if Shumate sent him to Texas first since Texas has the more serious charges. That’s how Utah got ahead of Arizona in the first place, so why shouldn’t it work here.

  224. Well Blogogre – I’m a pretty big believer in “you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” So, to the extent that you believe in some personal revelation, then I’m 100% with you.

    The problem is when anyone else tries to give you some revelation.

  225. From what I have seen the problems with religion usually arise from zealots who think that the judgment of God isn’t happening quite fast enough. Then they take it upon themselves to speed up the process.

    No good deed will go unpunished… er I mean, no body really gets away with anything in the end. Forever is a very long time… so what’s the rush, except to stop injustice if we can. But that is a very delicate process. We have to make sure we don’t create more injustice in our rush to judgment.

    We were taught, in the flds, that “You only have the right to do right”. When you do wrong you tend to lose your rights. Inherent in “revelation” is the agency of man.

  226. Quite frankly Proud, I would be very surprised if anyone there has done anything deliberately illegal outside of warren’s direction since he was arrested. How much influence he still may have? I wouldn’t dare guess.

  227. Judge: Rastus, why are you in my court… again?

    Rastus: For borrowing money.

    Judge: There is no law against borrowing money.

    Officer: Well, in this here case your honor, Rastus had to knock the man down three times before he would loan it to him.

  228. Blogorge said: And just for the record I don’t believe that warren ever had any divine relations. I just wanted to clear that up in case anyone had any question.

    and later he said:

    We were taught, in the flds, that “You only have the right to do right”. When you do wrong you tend to lose your rights. Inherent in “revelation” is the agency of man.

    So in a nutshell you do or you don’t believe President’s vision?

    Joseph Smiths?

  229. I wish there was an edit button.

    The question should have been you do or you don’t believe in President Taylors vison? and then I asked about Joseph Smiths.

  230. Judge: Rastus why are you in my court? … AGAIN!

    Rastus: For being in the middle of the road, sir.

    Judge: There is no law against being in the middle of the road.

    Officer: Well in this case, your Honor, Rastus was. trying to roll up the yellow line.

    Judge: So Rastus, You are in here for intoxication.

    Rastus: Yes sir, your Honor, bring on the intoxication.

  231. And if I understand your links concerning the keys the only person that should have the keys that supposedly were left for Joseph is the current President of the LDS Church.

    Which would mean the FLDS. Kingstons, Allreds, LeBarons don’t hold any keys concerning any religion and are Fakes. right?

  232. Yes Walton I do believe in Joseph Smith. I have studied his writings extensively and there is a quality to them that you won’t find anywhere else.

    If he had not declared they were revelations he probably would have been acclaimed as a literary genius.

    But please, don’t use my belief as another excuse to blasphemously vilify him. I know all those arguments already as well.

  233. my links to keys ???

    Not that it is such a bad question Walt, but I know where this is headed, and lets just say that they all share some of the same fundamentals and leave it that. I’m willing to let God be the judge of how justified they might be in their claim to authority.

    !@ Like I said, No good deed will go unpunished. !@

  234. I thought you brought the links over but it was A Texan that brought the links over.

    And you have it wrong about me looking for excuses to put down the LDS or the FLDS. I ask questions looking for answers. If you have a chip on your shoulder and can’t handle the questions than say so. But don’t say that I have any other motive for asking.
    I’ll be the first to admit my ignorance when it comes to this or that religion. But my intent is only to get answers.

    So with that in mind..if you believe in Joseph Smith and his writings do think that “the keys” are still within the LDS Church or do you think that because John Taylor had his vision that some of the keys had been placed with those that should have given them back when the New President came into play?

  235. If you have a chip on your shoulder and can’t handle the questions than say so. But don’t say that I have any other motive for asking.

    Well Walton, it can’t be easy for him to talk to us, so let’s give me some credit where credit is due.

  236. sorry it should read let’s give ogre credit where credit is due…

    sorry I’m fading fast here.

  237. s. are you talking about giving you credit for scientific evidence? I guess I am not following you on this comment.

    but I think Blogorge is very comfortable talking about thngs unless he is questioned about the statements he makes. jmo

  238. And maybe blogorge just doesn’t know my personality or the many others posting here. But how does one get to know another unless you ask questions.

    I live in an area that it is ok to ask questions. If the person you ask doesn’t want you to know the answer they’ll tell you. I mean straight out ” I don’t want to tell you”… so then you look for the answer another way and ask someone else.

  239. Fox news 13 is reporting that the gov of Utah has received an extradition request/warrant for Warren jeffs. From the gov of texas.

  240. YAYYYYYYY!

    ———–

    BTW BO, I’ve made lotsa sausage quit with the tired old crap the mainly tells us you’re talking out your pooter.

  241. It was a typo Walt, S meant to say give HIM credit.

    But, as I said Walt, I know where this line of reasoning / questioning goes. The “answer” to one question will only generate more questions. You say you are sincerely just wanting to understand, but I don’t buy it. As soon as you get some kind of commitment the game changes.

    You can probably get all the understanding you need from the Tanners.

    “chip on your shoulder” ; “statements he makes” good clues that you really are just looking for something controversial or contradictory to pounce on. Ammunition for later.

    What matters is what you believe.

  242. I’ll tell a little sorta story. Being that I’m a pinkpeople and in the course of things in the past I’d spent a bit of time for different reasons on different reservations. Now some Dine or we call them Navajo would be thinking that white people lied to indians so it’s ok to lie to us.

    But having a personal sense of dignity is another issue. So maybe when I needed to ask how to get to a place or person or … I may want to term it somewhat differently. I may need to know who is headman for a place I know of that want to go stay alone, well with my dog and peace and quiet, for a few days. I tell him where I’d like to go stay and give him a few bucks you know. Not as an insult, and btw, I’ll quietly be looked in on oh maybe a couple times a day to make sure I’m not having any trouble. KWIM. But I’ll never see anyone, or be bothered. Sure maybe my dog lets me know. *wink*

    I may ask in the form of, and by the way, I wouldn’t be making direct eye contact, “If you were to drive to such&such place, what road directions would you drive to get there?”

    This Dine person is not going to make a fool of him self. I get good directions. What I’m maybe saying is I can get around.

  243. Ok Granny… now that offended me. You can brag about being the one who get rid of me.

  244. Blogorge said: “You can probably get all the understanding you need from the Tanners.

    “chip on your shoulder” ; “statements he makes” good clues that you really are just looking for something controversial or contradictory to pounce on. Ammunition for later.

    What matters is what you believe.”

    Walton says: With the mention of Tanners I now believe that you have more issues than I. I don’t know the Tanners. To the best of my knowledge I’ve never posted with the Tanners. Although I did know some folks who go tanning.

    Real easy to say you know something. Harder to prove what you know.

    I am too old to pounce on anything but I have been known to enjoy things going in circles.

    Don’t be offended blogorge- I ask everyone that says they “know” the same questions, who know maybe one day there will be someone who can actually answer them. Thanks for your time though.

  245. Really BO you flap out all those trite aphorisms that you think so wise, that we’re supposed take as meaningful but they’re just not.

    We’re not even getting milk, let alone meat.

  246. I had a Revelation, someone said there was a ceremonial sexing bed in the new Temple and I wasnt sure until it I saw the proof.

    Then I was was suspicious that Warren would marry a little girl ooopsy I saw the proof.

    Then I heard a hard to believe story about this same marriage being taped while being consumated on said ceremony bed in the Temple, my Revelation kicked in and guess what?

    Two truths lead me to believe it happened whether it was taped or not. I dont need to hear any tapes.

  247. Blogo, acting a little thin skinned are we?

    BTW, by the nature of this case, there will be the attendant discussions of how, who, why, when, and just WTH what fer.

    Kind of like the Phillip Garrido case,,, kwim?

    That guy kidnapped and raped a young woman, then they let him out and he did it right the next time, huh? Yeah, he kidnapped a child in broad daylight and kept her prisoner as a sex slave for some 15 years.

    We need to understand what makes the wheels turn. We dont need to like the way the wheels turn.

    If they turn the wrong way, someone might step in and fix it.

  248. I think when the discussion gets overly focused on religion one needs to just let it go. The only one who can change your beliefs is you.

    One of my beliefs is that the old maxim of “an unexamined life is not worth living” is true. I have a corollary belief that an unexamined faith is not very worthy either.

    Of course, I’m not a hard core fundamentalist when it comes to those beliefs also.

  249. Ron

    In the interest of Why and What fer, I’d say religious beliefs are the Maypole of the Mayhem.

    Everyone has their rope and dances around the Maypole, no matter how dizzy they get. The faster they go the dizzier they get and things start looking really crazy.

    A sex bed as the “Main event” in a multimillion dollar Temple?

    Forget religion, that is just plain sick. Religion was just his excuse. The FLDS Maypole has spun out of its own orbit.

    JMHO

  250. Let me offer my objective clinical feedback on the communication interchanges which occurred last night. There is a lot of projection going on.

    1) Do not label others whom you do not know that well. Statements such as “you have a chip on your shoulder” do not constitute constructive feedback. An alternative constructive statement might be “you seem to be very guarded in your communication with me. Why is that?”

    2) likening Ogre to a member of a Native American tribe which has been mistreated by Caucasians and is therefore somewhat hostile is not constructive either. An alternative constructive statement might be “you seem somewhat defensive – are you having difficulty trusting me ? – if so, why?

    3) Ogre, you are vague,non specific and somewhat cryptic at times in your communication style. It would be helpful if you offered more specifics or more clarifications when you communicate. What did you mean when you referred the Tanners ? I am uncertain. (should I know ?)

    I give Ogre a lot of credit. He was brought up in a culture which taught him not to trust outsiders or to communicate with them, and he is working to overcome that. Give him a chance.

    The key to successful clinical (and spiritual) practice is attempting to find something you like and value in everyone you meet.
    That is my revelation, if you will, for today.

  251. S

    Thats good advice, and while Blogo and I got off on the wrong foot I am willing to hear him out.

    OTOH, there “have been” a couple (surprisingly, NOT FLDS he he) that I just CANT make myself like. So please excuse me for that.

    BTW one of them has said some of the worst things about the FLDS beliefs I have ever read. Imagine, though, that same person is -was trying to legalize polygamy.

  252. OTOH, there “have been” a couple (surprisingly, NOT FLDS he he) that I just CANT make myself like. So please excuse me for that.

    OH, OH, can I take a guess?? 🙂

  253. Stamp –
    It would be a spiritual exercise for me to attempt to find something likable about such a person as well. I am still working on that.

  254. HE HE guys…

    Well, I’ve tried some understanding too, but then as soon as I feel pity they blow it!

  255. And I think I am the type of person who can easily forgive.

    For instance, if the men in Texas truly showed remorse and repentance for their actions, not only would they have gotten lighter sentences IMO, but more acceptance in society in general.

    As it stands, no one in their right mind would or could trust a true blue Warren minion.

  256. Enjoyed the video Stamp.

    I stand by what I say. I might not say things the correct way to please some but it doesn’t take all day to say it.
    I have a question I ask it. People can either answer it or they can tell me they don’t want to answer it. But I’ve been on this long winding path of hemming and hodging for too long to sit and be led down another with no result.

    Ron said:”I think when the discussion gets overly focused on religion one needs to just let it go. The only one who can change your beliefs is you.”

    This story is about people who are using the excuse that they need to have more than one wife to gain a spot in their Heaven. That practice came to because Joseph Smith had a vision and Joseph Smith had a specific way in which the Church Order was kept. If they truly believed in Joseph Smith they would have followed the Church order and handed per se the keys back when after John Taylors death a new President came to be with the new rules.
    I am not making up the story. I am trying to understand the story. So even though this story isn’t about Religion they have used Religion as an excuse to do the things they do.
    As far as any reference being made about the Native Americans who knows the nationality of any poster or all posters. I could be Native and you guys wouldn’t know it.
    I don’t know of the Tanners. But I’ve heard many from the LDS use Tanners as a scapegoat to stop people from asking questions. The Tanners have been a sore spot for the LDS not the FLDS.
    The Allreds, Kingstons, Harmstons, LeBarons, Warrens group all say they have the keys. I say they don’t if they are true believers of Joseph Smith.
    Blogorge isn’t the first person I’ve asked these questions nor will he be the last. I’ll keep asking until I get the answers. That is my nature.

  257. Walt, Your “scapegoat” theory is inaccurate (at least in my case). I have been all over the Tanner site and there is a ton of good interesting reading there. (although I do hate to plug them…lol) They present a lot of data unbiased as well the biased.

    I’ve had extensive discussions with data scroungers like you who are looking for a reason to believe what you already believe. There is no question that historically a lot of bad and wrong things happened. I’ve never been one to try to deny it so much as understand it myself and try to keep the bigger picture in mind.

    I’m just saying all the ammunition you are looking for, and some more you aren’t yet is there. What I am not willing to do is allow you to say you got any of your “answers” from me, because I already know what you will do them.

    With some people it’s “all or nothing at all” once the find the glaring error they were looking for in the formula.

    When you do find what you are looking for, you fancy yourself as being objective, but if I do that and find what I am looking for, I have been brainwashed and indoctrinated if I don’t arrive at the same conclusion as you (or the Tanners) did.

    “Here’s to the man who is smartest and best
    Heres’ the man who with judgment is blessed.
    Here’s to the man who is as smart as can be.
    Here’s to the man who agrees with me.”

    Ironically politics works the same as religion when it comes to fruitless arguments, Ron. Liberals are never converted into conservatives by reading conservative “propaganda”… and vice versa.

    I know it makes S uncomfortable but I think science is there too on a lot of issues, like evolution and global warming for example… what is “out there” in deep space, or what “nature intended” with brain chemistry, vestal organs; useless DNA, etc.,etc. Science can always find a lot of things that isn’t there and miss a lot of things that are.

    I’m almost certain that I could read her scientific reports and arrive at some different conclusions with the exact same data.. But then.. I’d be wrong, right? Because I haven’t had the right indoctrination. kwim?

  258. Ok Walt, I will go ahead and give it to you straight up.. or low down which ever way you want to focus.

    The keyholder is that “one man on the earth at a time”. (Sec.132 v.7) So obviously all of them, or all but one of them are wrong. Including the Pope. It doesn’t need to be any more complicated than that.

    … like you said “if they believe in Joseph Smith”

    But do me a favor and don’t follow that up by asking me who I believe is “the” one. ok? Who…or if… you believe that is your valid question. Axe yerself… kwim? lol

  259. Everything else on the subject is exegesis.

  260. I tend to be the same way, Walton. (About asking questions, I mean.)

  261. Yes, but asking questions and really wanting to know the answer are two different things.

  262. You can’t handle meat if you are gummer Granny… unless we liquefy it for you. Ok ya, maybe sausage.

  263. Gotcha blogorge. You don’t want to answer my questions. 1. It is none of my business 2. No matter the answer unless it agrees with me I won’t believe you.

    I don’t have a problem with that. I am not easily offended. I’ll just ask the next guy that says he knows and tries to dance around questions.

  264. Here’s an interesting anti polygamy blog in Canada that blasts Utah over Supreme Court decision.

    http://stoppolygamyincanada.wordpress.com/2010/07/29/open-letter-to-utah-attorney-general-mark-shurtleff/

  265. Here’s my two cents on polygamy (or polygyny).

    First of all, I actually read an account that (while I haven’t verified it myself) seemed plausible about two secular women who were friends and decided they should share the one woman’s husband. It was the women’s idea and that would certainly be ideal for the situation working out. Do I think it did?

    Nope. I’m confidenct that it ended badly. Someone was going to feel shortchanged and less loved — possibly more than one someone.

    Can polygyny work with one man and three women? Not if you want people to be happy, loved and secure. ONLY if you make it about eternal salvation or basic survival does polygyny work on any level. And it always causes pain — more pain than monogamy because there are more people to be hurt by it.

    And polygyny in higher numbers creates another issue. One man cannot have a personal and fulfilling relationship with enormous numbers of children. To be quite honest, I doubt the Duggers — a monogamous family with 19 children — can really have a good relationship with all of their children. I wonder what an examination by some good child psychologists would reveal about the poor kids.

    Math, common sense, research, they all point to polygyny causing harm and no good that can’t be found through other, beneficial methods. It is my personal opinion that any man who has a “revelation” that polygyny works is merely indulging in wish fulfillment.

    Certainly it’s anyone’s privilege to believe what they want but I very much want to see polygamy remain illegal. All the information at hand shows that it is NOT beneficial to the majority.

  266. Sorry about a couple points of ignorance. Yours.

    S, would it have been clearer if I’d used some of my ANTHROPOLOGY experiences out in fields with lower primates, to describe that I can make my way around in other culturers? I’ve heard that your field and mine sometimes differ, besides my programs tend toward archaeology.

    Next, is BO. Your manners are completely lacking. It reflects on your parents secondly, that they didn’t teach you better as a child, but first upon yourself for not having adult responsibility in your bag of behavioral traits. Someone ought to have straightened you out long ago but I’ll tell you straight out that your snideries of passive-aggressive behavior is unacceptable.

  267. Gotcha right back Walt, All you really wanted to know is who I think it is. Like I said, I already knew where it was headed from the get go. I didn’t say you wouldn’t believe me; I said I don’t want to be responsible for what you do or say in the matter. And I said I already know what that would be as well.

    I will say for Stamps benefit that I don’t think it was ever warren. In fact he as much as admitted it himself. And like Walt said, it doesn’t happen that way anyways.

  268. like you said so well yourself Granny. HO HUM You can dish it out but you can’t take it.

  269. Here’s a bit more, which raises question of why woman involved in tape recording of Jeffs crimes are not charged.

    http://stoppolygamyincanada.wordpress.com/2010/07/29/cnn-interview-transcript-and-comments-from-k-dee-ignatin-executive-director-tripleap-americans-against-abuses-of-polygamy/

  270. Someone posted somewhere that they had started jeffs extradition again. Where did I see that? I don’t see it again? I’m looking for the link to that info.

  271. Kumb-by-ya everybody ….

  272. AT we’re not certain yet why these perverted women aren’t being charged with pimping out these children, tossing out ignorant boys to make it on their own, and in the case of the hideous ‘temple bed with viewing platforms’ (who’s got the link handy?) and restraining that child while she’s raped, which is what we’re told’s on the audio tape. Is all they have to do is dress like an eatster egg and wear magickal undies with black tennies, or white ones for church for a get out of prison free card?

  273. here is the link about the new extradition papers for Warren Jeffs.

    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-tx-requests-jeffs-extradition,0,1333039.story

  274. S, this place isn’t meant to be an institution for mentally ill nor criminals, nor behavior of that sort. BO can own his bad behavior and clean it up, or find some other venue IMO. We already know how the penishood can behave badly, it’s not news among us.

  275. Pliggy and I use to go back and forth like Blogorge and I. And then I saw the film by the Lost Boys. It was at that time called Banished. But they talked about the Sons of Perdition. And I thought there is no reason why ANYONE should go thru life feeling like that. I felt bad for anyone and everyone that feels like that. And I told Pliggy that.
    It was then that Pliggy and I put up with each other. He found out that I was a person looking for answers. That’s all.
    Blogorge seriously I won’t pester you. You think what you want. It doesn’t bother me and I am not offended. But please don’t throw out a bunch of stuff and not expect people to ask questions or feedback.
    I love to fish but I don’t go fishing in lakes that don’t have fish.

  276. Kum-by-ya everyone …

  277. Ogre – Comments like this : “You can’t handle meat if you are gummer Granny… unless we liquefy it for you. Ok ya, maybe sausage.” are not acceptable – they are ungentlemanly and unChristian.

    Cease and desist.

  278. Ogre, please stop. Enough of your projective identification for today.

  279. Fair enough Walt, You might even be quite surprised how much we do agree.

    The way I see it, if we are going to get personal, lets talk about you. So I tend to dish it back and hooo la la, look what happens! Sausage!@

  280. Well! I’m extremely late to this party… I mean thread. Had I arrived sooner, I might have expressed myself much earlier on. But this has been a very interesting read.

    .
    As far as Walton’s current question, the short answer is as Blogogre says, “one man on the earth at a time.”

    The long answer is too long and convoluted and I simply haven’t the time or inclination to sort it out properly.

    I will say, however, given your long-time curiosity for answers on this subject, that I would be surprised if you have not already been exposed to the FLDS – definitely NOT LDS – perspective/explanation.

    The long (FLDS) answer hinges on the differences between Priesthood and Church. They are not the same. Leaders of the “Mother” Church are not necessarily the same leaders of “Father” Priesthood. Surprisingly (she said, tongue-in-cheek), “Father” always rules “Mother.” (It’s the Patriarchal order of all things Mormon.) The problem is, “Mother” and “Father” divorced each other way back in 1886.

    Schisms have resulted ever since and perhaps everyone with such high interest and the tenacity to figure it all out, will arrive at the simple conclusion I have: Truth – like beauty and history – is in the eye of the beholder. Absolute truthy truth – especially in Mormon religious debate – will probably never be known. It all comes down to belief.

    As for the “Who is it?” JMO… no one! The whole concept died (if it ever existed) with Rulon Jeffs in 2002. That is IF I ever even wanted to believe any of my former indoctrination.

  281. Blogoger, earlier you said: “I can just see that maybe ET is right.”

    Then S. you said: I respect ET and value my interactions with her – how is she “right” in this instance – about what in particular ?

    My question to both of you (not meaning to be egotistical), is the mentioned “ET” me?

    Just curious.

  282. S posted about the Gov of Texas requesting extradition of Warren Jeffs. Which if I understand how extradition works, they have 30 days to take action, such have a hearing if Jeffs won’t sign.

    Now as I understand it, Utah can delay handing over Jeffs if he’s on trial. Which explains the request of Jeffs lawyers for a speedy retrial in Utah, they are hoping that a retrial with the jury instructions will increase chance of not guilty or hung jury.

    Of course this just delays Jeffs trial and conviction in Texas. The only hope for Jeffs in Texas is that an appeals court at either state or federal level will throw out evidence from YFZ.

    IMO hope that courts uphold YFZ search warrents.

  283. Yes, I believe you are ET.

  284. Caught up on all this reading. BO, honey, you’re a POS.

    FU,
    Love,
    Fred

  285. The KS on this site have all the attributes of an abusive cult. What gives. It’s ok if you have an unpopular group to target?

  286. Who is KS, anon 3:21 ?

  287. Speaking of which, who are YOU?

  288. I was reading this http://recognizeheresy.com/default.aspx as i was catching up on the posts and had to chuckle at the similarities with the comments of various characters on this blog.

  289. Hmmm… S. I’m slightly confused; I honestly don’t know what our interactions have been, but I would love it if Blogogre would answer your questions.

    I do agree with – or more importantly understand – a great deal of what he says, but I’d love to know specifically about what he “might” think I’m right.

    I do enjoy being right.

  290. Who or what is KS ?

  291. big meeting in the crick today, everything closed down from 12 – 5. Hundreds of cars around the meeting house and it was attended by men, women and children all dressed up. the men even had suits on.

  292. I wonder what the meeting was about ?

  293. Was Shurtleff there?

    and the merge continues ever so slowly jmo

  294. Could it have been a funeral? Those are always the very largest gatherings for the entire community.

  295. anon@3:51 – Recognizing Con Artists, Tyrants, and Spiritual Abusers in Leadership

    Hmmmm

  296. Could it have been a funeral?

    If I were a betting man, that’s where I’d put my money.

  297. Possibly about Warren, re: whoever’s been wearing his shoes. And his tidywhities. I mean, that’s a LOT of concubines.

  298. OK I am confused about Keys and John Taylor.

    (I have tried to read the book of Mormon but been unable to shove it down – please no offense, it took me aover 50 years to “swallow” the old testament and that is only because I did by CD driving to work….)

    I know that Joe Smith was given the key of revelation and passed it along to Brigham Young etc. So what is the role of John Taylor and the divorce of the Mother Church to the Father Priesthood with respect to the key alluded to by E?

  299. if it was a funeral, they’d better get to digging a grave because there was no new hole in the ground. btw, couldn’t find a marker of any kind for barbara steed jessop. found one for foneta.

  300. I wonder what’s up with that, Anon

  301. Maybe the service was there but the grave is in Texas?

  302. HHG, if you found the Book of Mormon and Old Testament hard to swallow, perhaps you could try this morsel:
    http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/

    (Come back and tell us how it compares swallow-wise, okay?)

    There’s a diagram there. From that homepage and diagram you’ll find a plethora of other links to keep you reading for days and DAYS should you be interested.

    However, this link might come closest to addressing your specific question.
    http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/OneMightyandStrong9-test.htm

    Keep your hat on though, so you don’t tear your hair out.
    ——-

    In a nutshell, “divorce proceedings” began when John Taylor (while in hiding from the law) was visited by the resurrected personages of Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ. The next day he ordained five men as attested by Lorin C. Woolley:

    “He then set us apart and placed us under covenant that while we lived we would see to it that no year passed by without children being born in the principle of plural marriage. We were given authority to ordain others if necessary to carry this work on, they in turn to be given authority to ordain others when necessary, under the direction of the worthy senior (by ordination), so that there should be no cessation in the work.”

    Thence went the High Priesthood “keys” – away from the mother church.
    ——–

    It’s possible you and/or many interested others here have already visited the above-mentioned site for answers. If so, ignore me.

    Caveat:
    Please understand that the above referenced site is NOT authored by Fundamentalist Mormons. In fact it’s pretty anti-Fundamentalist. However it comes closest to ‘splainin’ a lot (from a decidedly LDS slant) of what I am unwilling to here.

  303. http://www.eldoradoflds.us/07-30-10.htm

  304. anon@9:26 my head hurts from trying to figure out the last 5 years. And now the pictures and the news just in my opinion gets stranger and more confusing.

    Sometimes I wish I could just walk away. 😦

  305. The only thing I didn’t see is the landing for airplanes. Guess that is coming next week.

    I need a long long fishing trip. No phones, no computers no newspapers. All I need is my fishing pole, my ugly pick up (the kind made out of steel and not fiberglass) a big cooler and my dog.

  306. Gotta love ugly pickups.

  307. I think the place shown as the griffen place might be the new “old folks home” like mancos was.

  308. my head hurts from trying to figure out the last 5 years. And now the pictures and the news just in my opinion gets stranger and more confusing.
    ……………………….

    heh, Good one Walt. What happened in the last 5 years? Actually it was more like 15, but what the hey? But it is kind of like trying to figure out what happened to the Titanic right after it hit the iceberg. Especially if you ignore what was happening before that. Suddenly all the revelry and celebration that was happening loses all significance. And the band played on… Nearer My God to Thee.

    That fishing trip sounds like great fun. My kind of party.

  309. ET that “worthy senior by ordination” is a Joseph Musser embellishment to the narrative. You will not find that anywhere else in any of the scripture and seldom in the actual history. That may sound like a riddle to some but I’m sure it will make a lot of sense to you.

  310. ET

    Thanks for the links and explanation. No, I hadnt seen it before.

    Blogo

    15 years? I thought we could trace the issue beyond 150 years. But the past 10 have been a real rodeo.

    I heard Rulon made the Y2K issue into a complete fiasco. Were you one of the chosen 2000 er so?

    And what was everybody else supposed to do?

  311. Hey I saw the Y2K park yesterday .

  312. Well, not to defend Rulon, but he’s certainly not alone in making faulty coming of the kingdom prophesies. Crap, just about every sect has had those. Even Jesus missed the mark.

    Eh, maybe the Maayans got it right and we’re all screwed in 2012.

  313. Somebody probably already posted this and I missed it –

    but the FBI is looking into the Colorado City town marshalls.

  314. No Stamp, I didn’t have a ticket so I missed all that excitement. But they probably wouldn’t have even let me go to my own funeral there by then anyway.

    The rest of youse and them are supposed to repent and pray for forgiveness and await the day of judgment. It is coming eventually.

  315. Blogo

    No civilization lasts forever. Thats a fact, like death and taxes.

    But I’ve seen many a self-proclaimed ‘keyholder’ give a day and time, they always pass. guess they were wrong on who der keyholderen were. kwim?

  316. Did anyone see this broadcast ?

    http://abcnews.go.com/WhatWouldYouDo/polygamist-leader-ordered-trial-thought-child-bride/story?id=11263140

  317. Did anyone watch Shirtliff on “On the record with Chris Vanocre” (sp)kutv2 news this morning? They talked about “The list” and W. Jeffs. His demeanor showed a complete lack of regard for his guest and he repeatedly cut the AG off.

  318. S

    Seems like I remember somebody doing something very similar about a year ago. I swear I’ve seen this way before the July 2010.

  319. I must get teary too easily, What Would You Do did it again.

  320. Must be a re-broadcast then, Ron

  321. got confirmation today that babs steed jessop isn’t buried in short creek. anyone have any ideas on where she was buried? her funeral was held in short creek.

  322. The Grand Canyon isnt far away from Shortcreek right?

  323. It is not that far away from the north rim of the canyon.

  324. I was never yet convinced she’d died. Sounds too much like avoidance of impending multiple criminal and other charges. These folks are crooks so anything’s likely.

  325. I think she was pronounced dead by someone in Schleicher County.

    stamp, are you thinking the dumped her body in the Grand Canyon?

  326. That anon @10:51 was me. For some reason I wasn’t signed in.

  327. I think the admins will think what you think is uncalled-for, infantile, as well as rude.

  328. I think you’re right, Granny. It was entirely uncalled for. There are polite and respectful ways to disagree with people.

    As for Barbara — for some reason I just thought she was buried at the YFZ.

  329. The Grand Canyon is near Shortcreek, but no I dont think the FLDS would fill it up with Barbara’s. She was one of a kind.

  330. There are polite and respectful ways to disagree with people.
    ————-
    I agree with that Rebeckah, I’m trying to work on it. But it would be nice if a few intelligent people like Granny would lead the way.

    So much of what gets said on blogs like this is just plain crazy; inflammatory if not outright slanderous even though it may not be directed personally to one of the other bloggers.

    It’s open season on a minority group. It is almost like a whole new class of racism that would not be tolerated in any other context.
    Guilty until proven innocent at the very least.

    On topic: If they were going to fake a death to avoid prosecution it would have to have been Merril’s.

  331. Besides, Have you seen the Grand Canyon? It’s vast! Huge! One body would be completely insignificant. It would take all the BS on this blog to barely cover the bottom of it.

  332. Seeing Grand Canyon from the north rim is to me far more spectacular than from the touristy developed south rim. Up here in the northern hemisphere of this planet, nature in the grander view always appears better to the eye/brain looking southward.

    If one should go there, try to go visit the mormon house at Fredonia, very interesting I think.

  333. FYI – for a physician to submit a false certificate regarding a patient death is very serious act of professional misconduct which can result in fine, censure, loss of licensure, and imprisonment. That being said,
    I think that it is also a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory to suggest that the party in question is still alive and the physician has submitted a false death certificate.

  334. I believe she is dead too, S. I am sad for her young children who undoubtedly miss her a lot. Does it really matter where she’s buried?

  335. Granny, the Grand Canyon North Rim is 1000 feet higher than the south rim. You are right it is a more spectacular view. From the South Rim you can see a lot more of the canyon but you don’t get the same depth perception. It looks more like an inverted mountain from the south. Sometimes you can even look down on the clouds.

  336. S I suppose you haven’t seen it for yourself then. I have, gosh going back maybe some 50 years. Sometimes they sign off with Mexican MDs when in border states. Those FLDS MDs don’t give a hang for US or State laws anyway, as we’ve seen. Just give ’em the taxpayers’ $, what do they care. Never met a dead man or woman eh?

  337. Barbara Jessop is deceased.
    Seizure
    Died sadly alone.

  338. No Toad, I have never seen an American MD or DO falsify a death certificate yet. Sorry to hear that it happens.

  339. S

    Yeah, but remember there is an MD who is FLDS!

  340. If Lloyd Barlow was found to have falsified a death certificate, that would be the end of his medical license.

  341. Have no doubt about it, Proud !

  342. Well, only if he’s caught – and remember Barlow will do whatever Warren tells him to do.

  343. I really don’t know whether or not she is dead. I simply have no reason to believe she died, given the cast of this show.

  344. Anonymous 7:21, in the end we all die alone really.

  345. “If Lloyd Barlow was found to have falsified a death certificate, that would be the end of his medical license.”

    Especially since he’s already on probation!

  346. Anon the dumber, perhaps you should refrain from expressing your thoughts in a public forum until you can post as Anon the somewhat smarter.

  347. Duane,
    At last you have finally chosen a moniker which aptly describes you – Anon the Dumber.

  348. Dumber would be appropriate for duan, however dumbest would be even more appropriate.

  349. SLTrib, which over the years has not been a friend to LDS Church blasts CNN and Krakauer’s statements. Read editorial:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50039286-76/krakauer-church-jeffs-lds.html.csp

    IMO the editorial is correct.

  350. Thought this might interest the readership –

    http://www.malaysianmirror.com/columnists/mariam-mokhtar/47573-ban-polygamy-prevent-tragedies

  351. Dr. Barlow did not falsified a death certificate.
    Barbara body was taken to Johnson Funeral Home in San Angelo.

    No we all don’t die alone. Barbara Jeffs did not die alone.

    It does not matter where she is buried.

    Barbara Jessop is dead.

  352. A Texan

    Trent dragged me into a discussion on Krakauer and the alleged Church claimed “errata” sightings.

    What I quickly found, was that Jon has a talent for calling out bullshit and isnt afraid to ruffle feathers though he doesnt write those in his books in a malicious way.

    Both the LDS Church attack on him, and the “climbers” who rebutted him on his book “INTO THIN AIR” fall specatularly flat.

    In fact, the narciccistic and irresponsible guide who was paid 25,000 yet had his clients die all around him, attacked Jon but spent much of the post on his personal resume of perfection, then in the next year he was killed during another reckless climb – he is now an icicle on Anupurna and Jon is on CNN.

    So one critic of Jon, silenced, and in the ultimate way, which ironically made Jon’s point in that particular matter.

  353. I dont doubt Babs is dead but the legacy lives on. Its noted that her abuses were condoned if not encouraged by Merril.

    Nuff said.

  354. A Texan

    I’m a little surprised you’d say that about the editorial. I’m skeptical that the whole Utah Supreme Court is a bunch of political hacks. The comments to the article are interesting. They address the issue that despite supposedly being illegal and condemned by the LDS church, polygamy seems to have thrived in Utah.

    It does seem that Utah often is soft on the problems of polygamy.

  355. Ron,

    Which to the normal person would raise a red flag. Jon saw it and noted it.

    While there is no “EVIDENCE” the Supremes had any particular duty or call to protect them, its simply a long standing fact Utah is over run with the problem and LEA are seemingly impotent to do much about it, especially when the SCOU takes latitude from the hands of judges.

    Here we take one of the most heinous crimes out there, a guy playing prophet forcing an underage girl to marry, and subsequently being told she must stay in the marriage bed despite many pleas, and then they let him off the hook, so it raises an eyebrow or three.

    Still, it puts Warren out of the pan and into the fire, as Texas is sending him an invitation to a party near Zipperville.

  356. I don’t think the justices are “for sale” but I do think that there is no political will to stop the abuses associated with polygamy in either Utah or Arizona.

  357. S

    And then this peice on a young Taliban wife and what they do to keep them in line.

    “Time magazine’s latest issue carries this disturbing cover image. It’s a portrait of Aisha, a shy 18-year-old Afghan woman who was sentenced by a Taliban commander to have her nose and ears cut off for fleeing her abusive in-laws.

    Aisha posed for the picture because she wants the world to see the effect a Taliban resurgence would have on the women of Afghanistan.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2010/jul/30/time-magazine-news-photography

  358. “No we all don’t die alone. Barbara Jeffs did not die alone.”

    Anonymous, we all die alone because death is an individual event that can only happen to the individual. No matter how many people surround you on your deathbed — even if they are dying at the same time as you — you will die alone.

  359. Stamp I’m in tears, see how beautiful she was.

    That’s disfigured out the outside, exterior.

    Imagine then for oneself how FLDS disfigures children, female AND male, ON THE INSIDE, from birth.

  360. Go and meet? “Them”? Look BO, I first met some of “Them” back in the 80s.

    Guess what. You’re wrong. Again. And again.

    Why don’t you cut the crap and quit attacking me?

  361. Granny,
    What were your experiences when you met “them” in the eighties ?

  362. Granny Grunt says “Why don’t you cut the crap and quit attacking me?”

    Granny, you get what you give… I think it’s called Karma.

  363. Genuinely when someone doesn’t be aware of then its up to other visitors that they will assist, so here it takes place.

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