Trouble

Video Credit:  Andrew Chatwin

On July 20, 2010, just after 2:00 PM, the Colorado City Marshals arrived at the residence of Matt and Genevive Hainline to serve an injunction — a court order that commands the Hainlines to both remove items from the specified property and also keep off the specified property.   See below.  No matter what the Hainlines chose to do, they were going to be in violation of the order.  Minutes after the injunction was served on Matt and Gen Hainline, they were both arrested for interference with judicial process — in other words, violating the court order that they had been served with only minutes before.

The order was signed by Mitchell Kalauli, the Moccasin Justice of the Peace who has been disqualified for bias from adjudicating property disputes related to UEP Trust property.  The same judge who convicted Isaac Wyler of trespassing on UEP property while acting in his role as a UEP employee.   The same judge who  has attempted to deny Isaac his right to appeal to a real judge.  The same judge who hearda motion for an injunction against Shane Stubbs’ this morning in an attempt to keep Shane Stubbs from being on his own property and plowing his own wheat fields and storing his own harvested crop.   Once the media began reporting the events surrounding the Hainlines’ arrests, Mitchell Kalauli recused himself from the case — an implicit acknowledgement that he never should have signed that order because he is biased.   Kalauli also declined to rule on the Shane Stubbs matter this morning, acknowledging that the matter was a property dispute that should be heard by the superior court judge (another acknowledgement that Kalauli is disqualified from deciding UEP property disputes).

The injunction against the Hainlines refers to an address that does not exist.  The property in question is  supposedly the shed/garage you see in the background and sits on the Hainlines’ property.   The Hainlines have an occupancy agreement from the owner of the property, the UEP Trust , and have the authority to be on that property and peacefully enjoy its use.

The injunction was brought by Alvera Black, a current loyal FLDS member who has no rights to the property and no authority to request  the court or law enforcement to enforce rights they don’t have to the property.   Alvera Black did at one time have an occupancy agreement to use the shed, but that occupancy agreement was terminated by the UEP Trust  a while back because of Black’s refusal to cooperate and abide by the terms of the agreement.

The Hainlines have three small children who witnessed these events and are said to be suffering a traumatic reaction.   One of the children has hidden his bicycle so the police won’t take it from him.  When the Hainlines were both arrested,  the Marshals simply left the three small children alone in their house.

The corruption surrounding the Hainlines’ use of their property is only the latest in a series of events signaling a sharp escalation in the volatility within the Short Creek community.   Those who live in the community say that things have never been this tense, and many fear that a violent outbreak is imminent.   Other recent incidents include the plowing under of Shane Stubbs wheat field, the disposal of Shane Stubbs wheat from the UEP owned granary, digging up Ron and Jinjer Cook’s front yard with a backhoe on a bogus pretense that the Cook’s were tapped into the town’s water line (they weren’t), and provocation of Seth Cook to the point that he questioned Colorado City law enforcement whether vigilantism was the only way for non-FLDS to protect themselves and their property.

The town of Colorado City is the subject of an ongoing investigation into corruption; there is currently a civil rights lawsuit against Colorado City for their refusal to provide utilities to the Cooks because of their religion and in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act; Arizona AG has requested an emergency hearing with Judge Lindberg for ongoing flagrant violations of the Court’s orders by the town Marshals and city officials.   Yet, these brazen and flagrant outrages continue to escalate in Colorado City.   What is it going to take before this lawlessness is reined in?   There is trouble brewing.   Colorado City is a very dangerous place to be right now.

Advertisements

~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 24, 2010.

308 Responses to “Trouble”

  1. On what grounds were they impounding the truck? That’s horrible! And leaving the children alone is inexcusable. Where are all the FDLS apologists who cried about the babies being torn from their mothers because of religious persecution? Here we have a mother being torn from her babies for same. But I guess since she’s not wearing a prairie dress it’s not going to bother them.

  2. Nary a word from them Betty.

  3. Oh
    my
    God

  4. So they’ve had some level of judge in on this, as well as their bought & paid for “lawmen”? Is this really America, 21st century?

  5. Genevieve is a Stubbs, yes, sister to Shane?

  6. I’m not sure about Shane, but she is a sister to Ruth who was married off to Rodney Holm while she was underage.

  7. Obviously there is growing tension in Colorado City and the atmosphere appears to be extremely volatile.

    A team of skilled and experienced mental health professionals and mediators should be sent in to try to defuse the situation before
    further violence erupts.

    In Brooklyn there are sometimes outbreaks of violence or ill will between the Caribbean immigrant community and members of the Orthodox Jewish community. In times past when this has occurred, the mayor of NYC has called upon religious leaders, mental health professionals, and trained law enforcement personnel with skills in conflict mediation to quell the growing discontent. These individuals came forward, often donating their time free of charge, for the benefit of maintaining the peace.
    If anyone in a position of authority is reading this, or if a leader of the mainstream LDS church is reading this, now is the time to offer assistance before there is bloodshed.

  8. why, why, why. all I can say is the Cops and the FLDS are running out of feet to shoot!! my heavens!

  9. Genevive is Shane Stubbs’ sister.

  10. You are so right cat, they need counseling of some sort down there.

  11. Three small children left in the house by LE? CPS was not informed? Of course not, why should they care if children are endangered, they never have before.

    This stuff isn’t new, guys, it’s just been brought to your attention. This very same stuff has been going on for years.

    The corruption up there goes way beyond the local town Marshal’s office, too. The county is corrupt.

  12. true shocked, the cops need to wake up and enforce the laws of the US, not the laws of Warren Jeffs and the FLDS.

  13. who needs to be made aware of the situation of corrupt law enforcement to make something happen?

  14. Everyone that can be aware has been made aware. Nobody gives a rip. The FBI doesn’t care. The Justice department doesn’t care. The voters in Mohave County doesn’t care.

    Buster Johnson sent a press release calling for RICO to be used against the FLDS police Department in 2007. I know, because I helped him write and distribute it to hundreds of government and news organizations. Nobody responded, not one reporter, not one government agency.

    I’m not sure what to tell you. This is painful and frustrating to watch and has been for over 5 years now. I just can’t or don’t even want to imagine what the people living through it must feel.

    Don’t make the mistake of thinking this stuff is “new news”, because it just isn’t. The only new part is that you’re seeing it with your own eyes.

    Just imagine what this scene would have looked like if there had been NO camera’s present. just imagine that and you’ll have some clue about what has really been going on up there for years.

    Flora and I were cornered by the CC cops one night in Colorado City…and if I hadn’t opened my truck’s back door and let out the CBS camera guy we brought with us, with camera rolling, I can tell you it wouldn’t have been pretty at all.

    She’s been beaten up by these thugs, more than once.

    My best prescription at this point, personally, is to donate money to anyone who will run against the current Mohave County Supervisor in District 1, where CC resides and Matt Smith the county attorney and Tom Sheahan the county sheriff.

  15. is anyone running against these people ?

  16. I’m pretty sure they are not babies Betty seeing how one of them was old enough to own a bike. Matt Hainline can easily watch the children while Genevine bails herself out of jail.

  17. Alin, you missed the rest of the story, Matt had already been arrested by these idiots. The children were left at home alone by law enforcement.

  18. Gen and Matt’s kids are all under the age of 6. You still think it’s so wonderful that they were left there alone Alin?

  19. Maybe they didn’t realize there were children. Did the parents mention them to the officers?

  20. catwhisperer said this:”A team of skilled and experienced mental health professionals and mediators should be sent in to try to defuse the situation before further violence erupts.”

    They have the Safety Committee and they have many professional members in place.

    Boots said it best:”Don’t make the mistake of thinking this stuff is “new news”, because it just isn’t. The only new part is that you’re seeing it with your own eyes.”

    There was a reason that when the social workers and others came to the YFZ ranch safety issues were a concern. Not only for those inside but for those trying to do their jobs.

    Too bad that those wearing the badge and holding office in Arizona and Utah didn’t go to the same school as those in Texas.

    Texas Rangers in Arizona and Utah? I’d love it!

  21. Anon @ 4:50, Gen shouldn’t have had to have mentioned her kids, this should have never happened in the first place.

  22. Every one of those officers needs to be decertified. They participated in a farce and a fraud and they knew it. How DARE they call themselves officers of the law. This is beyond disgusting. I am outraged that the State and Federal governments have allowed this situation to ballon to this degree. Disincorporate these towns and get some REAL officers of the law in place — PLEASE!!

  23. And Al, as far as I’m concerned you have lost ANY grounds to talk about misuse of the law or unconstitutional behavior. You have made it perfectly clear that you feel ANYTHING the FLDS do that is illegal or unconstitutional is just fine — including putting three children under the age of 6 at risk by ARRESTING Mom and Dad right in front of them. Your defence of the indefensible reduces you to slime in my view. Now why don’t you run over to a neoNazi site and get your kicks agreeing with them while they insist that the Holocaust was a joke.

  24. walton, i’d love to see the texas rangers go hang out in short creek.

  25. The post at 5:34 labeled “rattler” is not “rattle” and anonymous at 6:28 is duane

  26. The children were present.

  27. Sorry catwhisperer, thought that was you.

  28. No, I am always catwhisperer.

  29. I’m confused, I thought that catwhisperer 6:28 was the “troll” posing as the real catwhisperer. Never mind!
    I don’t think sending in an army of unarmed PHDs’ is going to do any good.

  30. No anonymous Duane, you are the troll.

  31. and duane is always a troll!!!

  32. catwhisperer said:”Sending in a team of social workers who are learning on the job (the Safety Net) is not enough. Time for the big guns – psychiatrists, psychologists, and mediators with experience in dealing with members of cults.”

    Actually I think they are already in place.

  33. where ? – and are they holding meetings with all members of the community, in town hall meetings for instance, or are they just meeting with those who request assistance ? are they there to mediate conflicts such as this one?

  34. ProudTexan: “walton, i’d love to see the texas rangers go hang out in short creek.”

    🙂 and in Salt Lake, and Nevada and Montana and…..

    I really don’t think it would take a lot. For years many have seen those in charge spin on a dime and they know that those in charge are wishy washy. Shurtleff has spinned more times than my washer on a full load. A few Rangers in place in different locations and the rules and laws announced and I think things would start to change.

    Reid had asked for a special force to look into this- it was phoo phooed away by the good looking guy during a conference. I think he believed what Shurtleff was saying.

    The problem isn’t just with the FLDS. A HUGE part of this problem is those that are letting it all continue. I understand where the FLDS are coming from.
    I DON’T understand where those in charge are coming from.

  35. catwhisperer- they are the ones behind the curtains. Every time toto tries to pull that curtain back.. poor toto finds another curtain.

    They are there.

  36. Hey you guys I have a question. It doesn’t have anything to do with this site but something that happened elsewhere.

    There was a shutdown of blogs by a company due to some things the posters had said/did. It involved WordPress. The FBI had asked them to pull the plug.
    Anyway…as you all know I am afraid of WildBill and that other guy. and the way that they talk. Can posting in the same area as them get us into trouble?

  37. Well glad to hear it. Sorry they are not allowed to be more effective.

  38. Sadly, I kind of agree that sending in mental health professionals is not going to work, not because they are not effective in helping people who want help. I don’t think the FLDS want help; I think they want their own government. Until or unless they leaders begin to think about true compromise, no such action will be effective. And, of course, the minute they compromise, in that minute they are apostates. So, no.

    How many shrinks does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb has to really want to change.

  39. That person calling himself “rattler” is not me, y’all. But I think you know that.

  40. If a heroin addict put their children at risk would they have a choice to say no to the law?
    If an alcoholic chose to get in and drive a car that wasn’t liscensed or insured and endanger the lives of others does he/she have the choice of going to jail or not?
    Is there compromise shown to a homeless person who goes into another persons home and helps himself to their food?

  41. “They have the Safety Committee and they have many professional members in place.”

    That was funny!

    The Safety Net Committee is comprised of government agency representatives and polygamists fighting for decriminalization of polygamy. They are hardly trained to deal with the abuses occurring in Short Creek right now.

  42. Finally the Police are doing what they are paid to do,maybe these people should find somewhere else to live.I am sick of these former members coming back thinking they are owed something and because they know the truth and can’t live with themselves for the choice they made.It is amazing Uncle Roy said this would happen many years ago,at least we know he spoke the truth.

  43. Anonymous 1:37 am

    I gather you are a member of the FLDS

    You should be informed that the laws of the United States (of which Colorado Creek is a part of ) does not allow a public entity (or even private – like a real estate company) to discriminate on the basis of religion, sex, or race.

    If, as you imply, the police are being paid to remove non-FLDS, then they are in contempt of national laws and WILL BE DECERTIFIED.

  44. They really keep those Short Crik folk ignorant of US and State laws – and abusive – don’t they. That one 1:37 AM iced the cake, if it’s a crikker not just another sockpuppet.

  45. I posted something similar to Betty directed at anon@1:37, but it didn’t seem to post. The jist of my post was that as long as they are police sworn to uphold the laws of the US, then that is what they are obligated to do. If they are only going to uphold the laws of Lyle, Warren, et al, then they are not truly police officers and need to stop pretending to be.

    What I am tried of is the FLDS thinking they are above the law. You’ve been shown in Texas that you aren’t and hopefully very soon will be shown the same thing in Arizona and Utah.

    Finally, if you and your group don’t like the laws of the US and don’t want to abide by them, find another place to live. Try Mexico, it isn’t that far away and you’d fit in fine with the drug lords who think that the laws don’t apply to them either.

  46. Doesn’t matter if it’s a cricker or sockpuppet, the truth is the same, if they don’t want to follow the laws of the US then they need to find another place to live.

  47. http://www.mohavecourts.com/calendar/moccasin.pdf

    What do the initials HRG mean?

    And is this the Vera Black that is 91 or 92?

  48. I don’t see any initials HRG on the link you sent and I don’t see Vera Black. I was fairly sure that she died a year or so ago.

  49. I saw the HRG next to Matt Hainline at the bottom of the page. I don’t know what it means.

  50. It’s Alvera J. Black and HRG means hearing.

  51. Could HRG mean hearing?

  52. Alvera J. Black is the one who made the bogus claim that caused the marshall’s to attack Matt and Gen. I’m surprised that Kalauli’s name is listed. He can’t hear FLDS stuff, he’s already been told he’s bias.

  53. As far as I know, Vera Johnson Black is still alive, she’ll be 93 in December.

  54. I think it does Ruthie’s girl.

  55. Wow! Super sleuth Walton could not figure it out. Tells you how much I look at court filings. Thanks you guys.

    And who is this deputy H. Barlow? Is he related to the H. Barlow that was milking cows in Texas?

  56. Ah, the text is there now. I see what you’re saying.

  57. I remember her sons trying to get an apology for her treatment after the 1953 raid, saying she was on death’s door. It was in November of 2008.

  58. Wisan asks for federal investigation, calls local FLDS controlled police “rogue cops”. From news media report:

    http://connect2utah.com/news-story?nxd_id=100705&watch=1

    Question is, will feds step in, wish someone could get President Obama’s attention about this issue.

    This is going to blow up somewhere, either at short Creek or YFZ, IMO someone needs to step in and prevent situation from going violent.

  59. I hope the Feds will at least take a look at the situation. It totally appears that if you are flds you can do whatever you want and nothing will happen. That’s not how it’s suppose to work. Everyone is suppose to follow the same laws.

  60. It’s not all as it appears thanks to some fancy editing of certain persons.

    BTW, I heard that shane stubbs is (is soon to be) the new bishop of the local lds stake. They should really be wary as he may decide to store some of his animal feed in their food storage granaries.

  61. WildBill your wearing the wrong hat. crazy ol fool. Why not just come out and say it. You’ll feel better if you tell us how and why you are connected.

    I’m not buying the old guy from Florida scene anymore.

  62. Let me guess aono@6:18, they are going to put screeching Kathleen on Anderson Cooper 360 again and let her tell more lies.

  63. Anonymous –
    How do you know the film was edited ? Were you there ?

  64. This was posted above” BTW, I heard that shane stubbs is (is soon to be) the new bishop of the local lds stake>”

    Who ever posted this is unfamiliar with the LDS Church. The title Bishop in LDS church is the title of the pastor of a local church known as a ward, the title of the leader of LDS stake is “President” A mission church is called a branch and it’s pastor is know as “Branch President.” Check out link:

    http://maps.lds.org/

    Enter any location and it will tell you location of local churches called wards and their Bishops “pastors”

    Checked all the local LDS Churches around “short creek” didn’t find Shane Stubbs listed.

    So one must conclude that your post is nothing more than a bald faced lie.

  65. A Texan is correct in the descroption of LDS ward and Stake leaders provided in the post at 8:47pm. Whoever postulated that Shane Stubbs was the new Bishop of an LDS stake is totally ignorant of LDS organization.

  66. They are just totally ignorant chemist. Let’s call a spade a spade. I can’t wait for the FLDS to put their version of the Hainline incident up on the captive children site. Willie the thug is probably editing as we speak.

    Speaking of Willie, wonder where he’s gonna turn up on Tuesday with so many choices of hearings to attend.

  67. WildBill already posted his spin on things. Which is why I made the comment I did about WildBill wearing the wrong hat.

    WildBill is Willie? I’ve been afraid of Willie? lol oh for funny.

  68. I thought WildBill was into FARMS or involved with FAIR or hanging with the Allreds. Never once did I think Willie.

    lol This is cracking me up.

  69. No edit button sorry for so many posts.

    I’ll quit asking questions if some body tells me the story. the real story. You’ve got my number. Can’t be gibberish. Has to be Walton language. Can’t be one of those “restricted calls” or from a blocked number.

  70. stay tuned, Walton..
    Nocturnal Anon should be posting in a few minutes.

  71. That’s what I’m waiting up for Cat, to see nocturnal’s spin on the events.

    Mudpuppy = willie – go figure.

  72. I was talking about their video that Mudpuppy says they have Walton, not his ignorant rantings and ravings. Although, they usually don’t put video up unless it’s the women lying their ass off because the men don’t seem to be able to muster up a voice.

  73. What’s all this? I’m lost.

  74. I rewatched Kathleen spew her lies to Anderson Cooper. That woman has got to be a complete idiot.

  75. oh man. Really I hope someone does call me. For at least 2 years I’ve been wanting Willie to sit at my dining room table and tell me face to face about some of this stuff. I am not afraid of Willie. lol

  76. Walton, if you really want to see Willie, just hang out at the San Angelo airport, he’s known to fly in and out frequently.

  77. Does he wear boots or Church shoes? I don’t think it would be the same. I can’t hardly board a plane with my wooden spoon. And I thought I could make Willie talk by cooking sauerkraut or lutefisk. I bet he’d talk real fast just to get out of the kitchen. 🙂

  78. I am going to call it a night. I’ll turn the phone ringer on loud just incase somebody wants to make me feel better by calling me and telling me a story. The real story.

    If the woe is me thing doesn’t work I’ll try something else on Monday.

  79. Alin: I’m pretty sure they are not babies Betty seeing how one of them was old enough to own a bike. Matt Hainline can easily watch the children while Genevine bails herself out of jail.
    Alinu

    ———————————–

    My children were given bikes at AGE 4! Alin, your view of raising children is twisted to the extreme – so not surprising you support the FLDS.

  80. It’s not just a matter of opinion on how to raise children – it’s a matter of how police officers are supposed to behave by policy and by law!

  81. Hainline and Black are set for court at 1:00 today. Oh to be a fly on that wall.

  82. I just watched this video again and it is so disturbing. Where is separation of Church and State when a religious group can use the local police force to terrorize and harass law abiding citizens.

  83. I agree. It reminds me of old news footage of the treatment of African Americans by law enforcement in the pre-Civil Rights era.

  84. No one called to tell me the story. 😦

    So I have to keep asking questions.

    I guess I’ll start with this : Anyone have any idea what CP Manufacturing manufactures?

    And why would Vera Black have two phone listings and two home addresses listed?

  85. http://starpas.cc.state.az.us/scripts/cgiip.exe/WService=wsbroker1/names-detail.p?name-id=L13637292&type=CORPORATION

    now if you follow thru with Alvin I Black and a simple google Alvin I Black also has two phone listings and two addresses.

  86. what happened at court today with the Hainline – Black matter ? Any updates ?

  87. Not a clue yet Cat. Haven’t heard a word.

    Brooke is tweeting that there will be a ruling in the Warren Jeffs Appeal tomorrow. It should be issued at 10:00 SLC time.

  88. Walton, Vera Black and Alvera Black are 2 different people. Vera would be the stepmother of Alvin Isaac Black who married Alvera Jessop. Alvera is the daughter of Dan Calvin Jessop, brother by another mother to the famous deadbeat dad Merril, and Dorothy Emma Norvell.

  89. Those last 2 anon ones are mine. For some reason google chrome isn’t saving my name.

  90. Thanks. So Alvera Black is married to Alvin Isaac Black and it was her that was suppose to be in court today with Matt Hainline.
    Alvera is the one listed as manager for C P Manufacturing. And Alvin has 2 phone listings. And two addresses listed.

    Alvin Isaac Black is the step son of Vera Black who was married to Leonard Black? Vera Black is the one who is 90 plus ?

  91. so if Warren has to sign these or not sign these papers it has to be in front of a Judge right? 🙂

    I’m smiliing because it is one step closer to Texas and the FEDS.

  92. So, Alvera Black is Merrill’s niece? Hmmmm.

  93. Decision expected Tuesday in Warren Jeffs’ appeal

    By Aaron Falk
    Deseret News
    Published: Monday, July 26, 2010 3:16 p.m. MDT

    SALT LAKE CITY — The state’s highest court is set to issue a decision Tuesday morning in Fundamentalist LDS Church leader Warren Jeffs’ appeal of a 2007 rape conviction.

    A judge sentenced Jeffs to consecutive five-years-to-life prison terms in 2007 for his role in the “spiritual” marriage of a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old cousin.

    Elissa Wall, who is now an adult, testified in court the she expressed concerns before the union that she was too young to wed and wished to marry someone other than her cousin, Allen Steed. Wall testified Jeffs and family members told her to obey the church’s prophet and her husband.

    When the girl asked to be “released” from the marriage, according to court documents, Jeffs counseled the girl to give herself “mind, body, and soul to her husband and obey him without question.”

    Jeffs appealed the case on the grounds that he was merely acting as a spiritual adviser and never promoted non-consensual sex between the two. The appeal also raises concerns about jury instructions at the time of the trial.

    read more –
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700051036/Decision-Tues-in-Jeffs-appeal.html

  94. Thanks for the heads up! What is with the SCOU, they dragged the decision out since, what, last Nov?

    And only doing it on the day of his extradition hearing?

    Reminds me of a lazy auto mechanic. Fix it the hour you need it.

  95. I thought the same thing Stamp. Tomorrow is gonna be some day for FLDS stuff. Extradition hearing, Sacred Silo hearing, Trespass hearing and now Appeal opinion issued.

  96. Yes Betty, Alvera Jessop Black is a niece of Merril.

  97. Its going to be an FLDS extravaganza tommorrow. Funny how a quiet little religion gets in so much trouble?

    Maybe they arent quiet and maybe its not about religion.

  98. You guys are so good at straining at the gnat and swallowing the camel it is good entertainment.

  99. Hi Ogre,
    Long time, no see. What specifically are you referring to when using the Biblical reference ?

  100. You don’t find all the hearing happening on one day a bit of a coincidence blogogre?

  101. You don’t find all the hearing happening on one day a bit of a coincidence blogogre?

    PT

    Summers are tough for courts. You’ve got the 4th of July. You’ve got everybody trying to take vacations while their children are out of school. in addition, Warren’s extradition is on a very tight timeline. So, I’m not surprised at all that there are a bunch of court hearing happening at the same time.

  102. Blogogre

    We know who is swallowing camels, and it isnt the law.

    Thats why Warren gets to run a three ring circus tomorrow.

    That camel doesnt taste so good anymore.

  103. When is founder’s day? Isn’t there some big historical day for Mormons about now?

  104. While everything is in the middle of the circus tent Walton has been going around looking for gaps under the tent.

    Something gives. Maybe a baptismal tent in the CPark area for all those holding hands???

  105. I don’t think Winston can leave Canada yet maybe they are giving Colorado City and Hilldale to the CPark and the rest will move to Texas.

  106. Betty, It is called Pioneer Day in Utah. The 24th of July is when they entered the Salt Lake Valley. It is celebrated in three states: Missouri because the Mormons left there, Utah when they arrived, and Oregon because they never made it that far. I’m sorry but you missed it. Better luck next year.

  107. So Oregon does the happy jig because the Mormons didn’t get that far. That’s too funny.

    And Walton, maybe they’d better just keep on going through Texas and find a place in Mexico.

  108. Oh and Betty, Ironically today July 26th is the anniversary of the 1953 raid on Short Creek. Your next holiday will be April 3rd. The day they raided YFZ.

  109. I see Blogogre is still pissy and trying to take it out on strangers. Well, I guess it’s better than going home and kicking the cat or beating the dog.

  110. actually he is usually reasonable once you get to know him.

  111. I see Rebeckah is still humorless and into pointless ad hominem. Take a pill. (a chill pill)

  112. Blogogre

    What day is Mountain Meadow Massacre day?

    Talk about people “not making it”…

  113. It doesn’t matter Stamp, because it is every day for you.

  114. How is the Chihuahua, ogre, still eating your huaraches?

  115. I can’t stop laughing….Andrew cracks me up…be gentle,you be gentle..

    (language edited – ADMIN)

  116. (inflammatory comment removed – warning to poster – continued comments along that line will result in banning – ADMIN)

  117. You guys are so good at straining at the gnat and swallowing the camel it is good entertainment.

    ======================
    Well, the FLDS are good at making molehills out of mountains. (No, I am not dyslexic). “We didn’t do anything wrong. Just another media circus by the apostates.”

  118. Sorry no, I’m not really into Stamp food, but go ahead; don’t mind me. I’ll take a tequila though, if you are offering.

    almost right cement, but it’s more like they make craters out of mountains but that is tragic not comical.

  119. Off topic but this is something that you guys might like and I fully support.

    The gulabis, whose members say they are a “gang for justice,” started in 2006 as a sisterhood of sorts that looked out for victims of domestic abuse, a problem the United Nations estimates affects two in three married Indian women. Named after their hot-pink sari uniforms, the gang paid visits to abusive husbands and demanded they stop the beatings. When obstinate men refused to listen, the gulabis would return with large bamboo sticks called laathis and “persuade” them to change their ways….

    http://reason.com/blog/2010/07/23/born-in-flames-meets-gandhi

  120. Here is a recent post by Ruth on Texas Polygamy:

    “and if the fist of the cop does not work, after the fist of the man is done, they hire a fancy lawyer to slam the woman, fancy words on a paper and totally eliminate truth…..yes, our cops are brutal…dishonest and brutal…….. “

  121. FYI – blogogre is ex – FLDS and is usually quite reasonable.

    I am interested in what he has to say, and I wonder what he meant when citing the Biblical reference he used last night.

  122. S. Reasonable people seldom open a conversation with insults, nor do they chose inflammatory handles. I’m willing to listen, up to a point. If the emotional noise keeps drowning out any rational message, I’m going to complain to the admin.

  123. He usually calms down in short order, and has interesting observations.

  124. I think it’s an interesting nick, probably no worse than some of mine

  125. No duct tape or wet sheets, troller?

  126. Bloggo

    I would agree the FLDS paint a tragic picture.

    But who is to blame for that?

    PS Do you hang Mayan calender too?

  127. S.,

    I await this transformation with an open mind, then.

  128. I’m with you Betty, insults and obscure references do not lead to helpful insights or good communication.

  129. S. – Do you just follow wherever blogogre goes and make weak justifications for his/her behavior?

    Not to get offtopic or anything. It was so interesting to see blogogre start a pointless game of vague aphoristic one-upmanship.

  130. So today is a pretty big day in the court system for the FLDS.

    I bet Warren is hoping that if he and his pals just pray and kneel enough, he’ll miraculously appeal the 2007 rape conviction, then even more miraculously win his extradition hearing, and be out on the streets of Short Creek with a 12-year-old on each arm by the weekend.

  131. chemist

    Blogo doesnt really communicate in the way most people do – must be something in his background.

  132. Ellie,
    Blogogre usually has interesting things to say as an ex – FLDS member – I’ve encountered him on another blog previously.

  133. Nothing is certain, ellie, but somehow I don’t think it’s going to work out that way.

  134. I’ve just never applauded your vindictive craziness like the rest of the gang Stamp. Although I will admit you have come up with a a few funnies, they are always mean spirited. I know that has always annoyed you terribly. If you have ever replied to me an anything but snarky ad-homeinem I don’t recall it.

    I suggest you go re-read the 10 points of Sage Advice that Ron posted and evaluate yourself on that scale.

  135. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11737707 Utah Supreme Court overturns Jeffs conviction, orders new trial

    Guess crime does pay. Sure makes a person want to go to work every day and support those breaking the law and those saying they will enforce the law.

    Not fair to those that work hard evey day to make things right.

    Even with all the game playing this just does NOT make sense.

  136. Utah supreme Court free Warren Jeffs overturns conviction:

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11737707

  137. Would have to agree with Mr. Walton, this is shocking news, lets hope that he gets sent here toi Texas soon, we got the DNA, he can’t escape that.

  138. Losing faith in religion and losing faith in our government.

    Sad.

  139. insults and obscure references do not lead to helpful insights or good communication HERE unless they are about the people, religion, or the posters you don’t agree with, the more snarky the better, then they are applauded and high-fived.

    Take for example ellie’s 8:55. That is really really funny, right? Well, sorry but if I don’t laugh it doesn’t mean that I support warren at all.

    Ya’ll can dish it out, playing to the mob, but you can’t take it. You get real mean and judgmental if anyone dares to disagree with you.

    and P.S. it drives away any intelligent discussion … in case you wonder why all you get here is your mutual admiration society.

  140. I peg it to the current regime. I never felt so ashamed of the US before although came closer over a decade ago.

  141. Speaking of the ‘the mob’, the FLDS criminal mobsters are getting a lot of exposure these days, between trials in Texas. That’s a good thing. That reminds me, which show(s) do Willie the Thug attend?

  142. well Blogo anono

    The first time I recall when I encountered you was when you made an attack on me, so whaddya expect? That was on peanut’s site and it appears he deleted the bulk of what was there so the interaction is gone.

    Great. So we can start from scratch.

    Aint it great to be an American?

  143. Anonymous at 11:35AM: I can’t see why you think I was trying to be funny. I was being serious. A pedophile who uses his influence to evade justice isn’t a laughing matter.

    PS If you feel you need to “dish it out” (whatever “it” is), getting a handle makes you look less like a silly troll.

  144. ellie

    Blago anono has made quite a few attacks on me on the peanut head site, so I dont trust him as an honest debater. While the treatment of the FLDS on each other is very sad, we do break it up with humor and point to their numerous follies.

    Its like commenting on a wreck at the race track, when a guy gets into another car, you wonder how long it will be before he crashes again.

    We’re talking about serious crimes and perps doing serious time.

    Yet people pop up and try to minimize or excuse it away.

    Blogo is dishonest as he wont address the crimes, just the fact people comment on them.

    So Blogo, take your turn, give us some facts or opionion, and we can discuss it.

    If all you can perform is ad hominem, you aint got nothin’..

  145. Can I give it a fallacy basket of straw men and red herrings to ‘argue’ with, too?

  146. They pass em out at Saturday meetings.

  147. Actually if you take red herrings wrap them in your straw man and smoke them they’re mighty tasty!

  148. Stamp: I think a dark sense of humor can be a beautiful thing by helping people cope with a lot of horrible realities.

    And I understand that some people might find Warren Jeffs’ delusions funny. Haha, he believes that God wants him out of prison so he can continue to ruin the lives of people and sexually assault more underage girls.

    But I can’t find the humor in it while Jeffs still brings harm to so many. So I wasn’t joking with my previous statement – I bet Jeffs really does hope that. With this latest ruling, I’m sure he feels more vindicated and chosen than ever.

  149. Seems to me that AZ, UT. TX had a little powwow, where they decided that AZ,UT can save themselves money, for the longest prison time would be in Texas for Warren.
    However, I really would like a good lawyer explaining the Utah Supreme
    Court decision a bit better.
    But than mass murderers have been let out on some weird technicality.
    The decision just does not look good for Utah and Mormons who like to see the law upheld.

  150. Sorry about the anon posts, it wasn’t deliberate as you could obviously tell it was me. Don’t let your pointy head poke through your tinfoil hat, you might get some unwanted exposure. kwim?

    I seriously doubt Stamp, if you could even recognize an opinion outside of your prejudice. You have obviously long since lost all your objectivity.

    I agree this recent ruling isn’t so much a win for warren as it is for civil liberties. Now he is “free” to be arrested by Texas. Who couldn’t see that, and who could fault the legal minds for going there? It’s a smart play.

    I disagree with some of the comments here about the lame incompetence of the UT and AZ legal machine is. They gave it their best shot and spent a ton of money. It’s just a problem of trying to make unethical into illegal without getting wrapped around the wringer of unethical yourself.

    Most of the people who are bitching about it have already destroyed their own credibility. Now they don’t just believe the lies because they want to.

    Unlike the blogosphere and in the media, an accusation or an allegation is not good enough to be used as evidence of any guilt. It only serves to open an investigation. The real problem is when the investigation starts to become unethical.

    Ok here is an opinion for you, lets see how objective you can actually be?

    What you really seem to want isn’t really justice at all, but judicial activism. Well, you will get it and probably like it in the moment. That is the current political environment. I hope you like as much when it comes for you.

    Oh but, not to worry… you are a perfect model “American” citizen I’m sure.

    Here is another opinion for you:

    All of these Texas cases should not be tried by your same (expletive) judge. In the interest of justice, would that be too much to ask?

    Especially if it is the same judge who was already involved in the (questionable) search warrants, the controversial initial complaint, the authorization to raid the community and separate families on a CPS (which is not the Law)complaint, (which was overturned btw) and then the ruling on the (her own) evidence. I’m not questioning her competence or intelligence, but if Judge Walther wasn’t an activist judge she would have recused herself already from any of these subsequent trials.

    Honestly, I don’t think the verdicts would be a lot different, given the nature of the evidence however dubiously it may have been obtained, but I’m talking about judicial ethics. Isn’t the judge expected to be impartial, or does that just apply to the jury now?

    But like you said Stamp, you gotta love America as long as it lasts.

  151. well Blogo anono

    The first time I recall when I encountered you was when you made an attack on me, so whaddya expect? That was on peanut’s site and it appears he deleted the bulk of what was there so the interaction is gone.

    Great. So we can start from scratch.

    —————————————–

    The way I remember it, it wasn’t directed to you … so my response was a counter attack. You have a propensity to slay the messenger.

    It was actually the peanut who got the first brunt of it, but he took it like a man. (he deleted the post… then apologized for it. lol )

    In real life, how do you handle people who don’t agree with you? Which of the 10 crazy rules works best for you? I’m guessing you aren’t as bold as you appear here where you have nothing to lose.

  152. Blogogre,
    I plead guilty…my first response on hearing the SCOU ruling was disappointment that a person so “obviously (to me)” guilty can get out on a technicality….that was my “judicial activism” knee jerk response.

    But I also plead not guilty because after that initial reaction I decided that if there was a problem with the initial case (and it does seem just a wee bit out there to convict as accessory to rape) then, as a person who has consistently been advocating – let’s follow the law – and that includes the FLDS church structure – then I need to chill – so I did.

    Third – my comment on accesory – I do believe he coerced her, but from a legal point of view…..?

    Fourth – I have also wondered – why are all the cases in one court – if, and I hope there will not be a legal if, something comes up then all of the cases will have a united appeal front…

    Perhaps RIH or Corum can explain the one court rationale to us????

  153. More insults and jumping to conclusions. When does the reasonable and interesting start?

  154. ” It’s just a problem of trying to make unethical into illegal without getting wrapped around the wringer of unethical yourself.”

    See, here you make the assumption that there is noting illegal in Jeff’s actions and you don’t back that up with argument. You just state it as fact.

    As far as I can tell from Utah law, no one was denying that he knowingly and deliberately arranged and performed an illegal marriage ceremony, which is at least a misdemeanor. Just as consummating the marriage was at least statutory rape for Allen. Allen pretty much confessed inJ Jeff’s trial that Elissa was not willing or consenting and no one is contesting that she asked Jeffs to let her out and he sent her home telling her to be completely obedient. So we know there was a lot more than just unethical going on, no matter what might have happened in the execution of this case.

  155. What do I do when someone disagrees with me…..

    1) If I generally respect their opinion, knowledge and presentation, I think it through from their point of view. If I still disagree, then…

    2) If I like other aspects of my interaction with them, I try to focus on that and avoid the topic that we don’t agree on. Agree to disagree. There are actually quite a few people who post here that I don’t completely agree with, and sometimes the subjects are quite important to me.

    3) If they won’t leave the topic alone, escalate to emotional or abusive language, make the conflict the central part of our relationship, etc. then I avoid the person as much as possible. Who needs the grief?

  156. Betty

    “More insults and jumping to conclusions. When does the reasonable and interesting start?”

    Ditto. I see someone carrying too many suitcases. I dont get paid enough to sort the baggage.

  157. @hello;

    That was a good logical response. If it had come from Stamp I would have been doubly impressed, but as you can see it didn’t. He is too caught up in his own arrogance.

    @ betty: I am flattered that YOU were insulted. (just kidding) Pretty good job of pretending ignorance. You are the one who jumped that time, frog. I said nothing specifically about warren’s guilt or ethics. I was talking about the criticism of Ut and AZ being incompetent and not willing to address “the problem” as you see it.

    Bring on the evidence in a way the legal process can actually use it for a change. Clue: You may need more than an anonymous call to CPS when you get to court with it. Another clue: Talking to the Media is not the same as talking to Law Enforcement. Clue 3: Writing a book is not evidence.

    but your response to disagreement was good… if true. I’ll be watching to see if you can actually do it like that. I did note the “if” disclaimer though. That leaves the door pretty much wide open to “whatever”.

    @ Stamp: You don’t have to be very bright to marginalize and accuse someone else of being stupid. Rule 11: Anything you don’t agree with is “baggage”. I would hate to have to be the one to try to sort out yours.

  158. ” Pretty good job of pretending ignorance.”

    What the heck are you talking about. If you are going to insult me, at least be coherent, please?

  159. oh oops… I’m a bit slow today, it just dawned on me that reasonable and interesting means that they have to agree with you. Sorry for that oversight, but now I understand.

  160. You got a lot of balls calling anyone else arrogant.

  161. well betty, a good illustration would be your picking out the only thing that didn’t matter and making that into your response. It’s called obfuscation. It’s very effective for ignoring the content… “straining at the gnat” if you will. How’s that for an insult? a good coherent one ? no?

  162. No, Blogogre, it does not mean that they have to agree with me. It means that they have to present a logical argument with facts to back it up. That they can’t base their argument on things like voices from the sky. “Interesting” means that they use good English, make novel approaches to an idea, make clever presentation.

    Just because people can’t understand or accept what you are saying is not proof that you are so far above them that they can’t grasp your amazing thought processes. It could just mean that you haven’t really tried to communicate anything but hostility.

  163. Yeah, I remember well – blogo jumped on peanut and went crazy on him before settling in to mindless drabble.

    I asked you several times, Blogo, after your criticisms of Michael, where is the source of your wonderful and superior works?

    So far, here, as there, you just want to criticize and make up defenses for child molesters.

    No matter how the law went down, if you agree with it or not, if it holds up in court or not, the entire world recognizes that the FLDS are rife with child molesters.

    The story has hit FOXNEWS and CNN and anybody who has even half a clue knows the skinny.

    And sorry, I dont have any similar baggage.

    But you OTOH, probably have a lot to tell.

    Hows it going in your little commune -ity?

  164. Oh.. let’s see which point of how you respond was that under? I didn’t think you could actually do it it. But, yes, that does fall under your convenient “if I respect” disclaimer.

  165. Human conversation has different purposes. To convey data, to persuade, to educate, to entertain. And then there is just the desire to get your emotional needs met. If you aren’t conveying data, persuading, educating, entertaining…..why, again, am I trying to meet your emotional needs? Why is it necessary or even recommended that I associate with people who fill none of those functions of conversation?

    Reminds me of Celtic with a better vocabulary. Just accuse everyone of being prejudiced and small minded and then take everything they say as proof of same. Yawn.

  166. Blogo reminds me of Mayan – all whine, none of the good cheese content.

  167. I did no such thing Stamp. Not here and not there. I was only critical of making unsubstantiated accusations. That was it. The rest you only imagined because you thought I was FLDS which was also jumping to an erroneous conclusion. Your deep seated hatred is baggage whether you admit it or not. Good luck with FOX and CNN as your impeccable source of “world” information, but you should be careful with accessing anyone else of mind control.

  168. ok betty that works,

    I’ll be watching to see how you only convey data, persuade, educate, and entertain. If anyone posts anything else under your name I’ll know it wasn’t you.

  169. You didn’t think I could actually do WHAT? See, this is the problem. You think you are making sense but you aren’t.

    I’m not saying you can’t keep talking. You haven’t done anything I would consider worthy of banning or removing comments. But then, you aren’t really making a cogent argument, either. Sorry.

    And I don’t have any compelling reason to respect you or to treat you better than you are treating others. You’ve got to earn that, and you’re not doing well, IMHO.

  170. Stamp, why are you so incessantly trying so hard to make me into someone else? Is that a confession? Are you somehow validated if you can just blow me off.

    Like I said, poor pity anyone here who dares to disagree the Stamp of approval.

  171. Blogo

    The first post I responded to was a post were you lit out on Michael in a scathing attack on his writing style.

    I may well have thought you were FLDS due to your rabid defense of their child molesting practices.

    I dont understand why some people think its ok for a Church leader to molest children, or share them and cause them to be molested by others in the group.

    Perhaps you could enlighten us with your thoughts on that practice.

  172. Who said that only those things were necessary or desirable? I didn’t. I’m OK with meeting emotional needs. But it’s a gift, not a requirement. I don’t have to like talking to you. Doesn’t make me small minded or prejudiced. Might make me wise. If I weren’t so bored and sleepy right now, I probably wouldn’t be talking to you, come to think of it.

  173. What do I do when someone disagrees with me…..
    ……………………

    See by 8:14 you have already forgotten what you said at 6:39, and then you have the audacity to accuse me of being incoherent. But I understand, I do. It’s a deliberate tactic to pretend to not understand and make it appear to be someone else at fault.

    The only way I could EVER get your respect is to agree with you… um today. Tomorrow you might have a different opinion.

  174. Yes, Stamp, I can see some similarities. But mayan got to the point. I’m not getting that here.

  175. (Personal attack deleted with warning – ADMIN)

  176. I have asked Blogo probably a half dozen times for his opinion or his works on the matter, but just get flak.

    Blogo, your welcome to share your POV anytime, but it looks like you need to have something to back it up besides attacks and rhetoric.

  177. “See by 8:14 you have already forgotten what you said at 6:39, and then you have the audacity to accuse me of being incoherent.”

    I remember what I said and I’m completely capable of going back and looking up what I said if I did not. I’m not pretending. I feel completely innocent this evening, thanks, so there’s no need to foist any responsibility cause there’s nothing to be embarrassed about.

    My confusion is that you don’t say what action or statement on my part is out of sync with that post. You just say something like “there you go. I knew you couldn’t do IT.” :shrug: That’s why you don’t make sense. What is “IT”? What did I write that makes you think I don’t tolerate your opinions? Do I have to agree with you for you to think I’m tolerating you?

    I’m not telling you you can’t post. I’m not making fun of your hairdo or saying mean things about your mother or conditions of your birth, nor am I making analogies between you and various devices of intimate hygiene. I still don’t agree with you, and like Walton I don’t like you much, but hey, it’s great to be in the USofA where you can express your opinion.

    See, I don’t agree with chemist on a lot of things. He’s mainstream LDS and I’m….not. But you never hear him being insulting. He’s concise and to the point. His arguments hang together. He’s honest and consistent. That’s the sort of thing that wins respect.

  178. Blogogre,
    Please refrain from making any comments which could be construed as personal attacks here, even if meant in jest.

  179. Polygamy diaries: Colorado City residents fear police
    http://www.azfamily.com/news/Polygamy-diaries-Colorado-City-residents-fear-police-99233889.html

  180. S., I’m sorry if I offended you by being disrespectful to Blogogre. However, I find the arrant hostility that Blogoger approches each communication with to be exhausting and to obscure any point that this person might be trying to make. I’ll take your word for it that Blogogre has something of worth to say. All I saw on the Peanut site from Blogogre was basically an attack. Blogogre never seemed to have a point to make, just venting his/her spleen. If he/she wants to actually communicate, then I’ll listen. As long as he/she simply wants to attack and deride, I’ll ignore. I tried interacting and being respectful on Michael’s site and didn’t see much respect or interaction in return.

  181. Rebecah

    That was my experience too. I tried, as I have here, to get him to open up about his POV, but he wont go near it with a ten foot pole.

    Much easier to sit in his hidey hole down south and act like he lost part of his liver.

    At least Deb Lee says what she believes.

    Maybe thats why Blogo wont say, I reckon his beliefs are so far out that they wouldnt be accepted by the masses. So his only position is from one to attack. That likely wont last long, if he can only do that and wont contribute.

  182. You didn’t offend me Rebeckah, don’t worry !

  183. So is this bloggo = pliggy? But pliggy sucked back in didn’t he?

  184. Nowhere Stamp, have I ever defended the underage practices. Not ever.

    I see no reason for you to keep attacking me about that and trying to make me into someone else who may have at some point disagreed with you. I’ve lost track of all the different attempts there are so many.

    I have never posted under any other name, so ya’ll can give that up. (well except anon a few times and here as anon a couple times in inadvertently)

    I guess to be truthful rebeckah, I would worry if you did like me. lol

    Stamp are you in tight with ADMIN here or something? Now I’m starting to understand how this blog works.

  185. No he is not Pliggy, Granny Toad.
    Blogogre, without revealing your identity, why don’t you tell them about your background

  186. Please do blogogre

  187. Stamp,
    Ogre has never made any comment in favor of underage marriage that I am aware of

  188. S, please just convince blogogre to not make personal attacks. I’d like to hear his/her story

  189. I’ve heard that the complete video of this incident has or is making it’s was into the hands of the FBI.

  190. online law degree not that there is anything wrong with that.
    Age 25-30
    never left the “homestate” where ever that may be
    never got along with the other kids

    Just a wild guess but my batting average hasn’t been the best

  191. I don’t think so Walton.

  192. I don’t like blogorge but I shouldn’t have made my last post.

    I appologize blogorge. There are more people than not that haven’t had to give their background history. If blogorge needs to give his/her background history than others should do the same.

    Is anyone else sick of the games played?

  193. blogorge has made valid points and he/she is right about the system. It isn’t working set up like it is. And those are the facts.

    I don’t like it. but I don’t think yipping at one another is going to help either.

  194. “I guess to be truthful rebeckah, I would worry if you did like me.”

    I neither like nor dislike you, Blogogre. I simply don’t like your hostility. You come across as someone who is angry at someone else and taking it out on everyone else in the world. I don’t like that at all — it’s counterproductive in all respects. It doesn’t help your anger because you know perfectly well that it isn’t directed at the people who harmed you and created the anger. It doesn’t help communication here because it generally puts people on the defensive or causes them to simply ignore you.

    To “like” or “dislike” you I would have to know more about you than that you are an angry person.

    As for you “worrying” if I did like you — why do you feel the need to be snide like that? You don’t know me anymore than I know you. You complain about Stamp’s attacks on you (by the way, Stamp, I’ve never seen Blogogre advocate underage marriage either) but you turn around and make your own rude and demeaning comments. What is your purpose here? Do you want to make a point or do you want to vent your spleen? I’m open to hearing your point, whether I agree with it or not. If you want to vent your spleen, feel free to look for another audience because I’m not really interested in being anyone whipping boy today.

  195. CNN’s Anderson Cooper tonight on his 360 show interviewed Carolyn Jessop on subject of Utah Supreme Court. Cooper mentioned that Texas has evidence in form of tape of Warren Jeffs at YFZ Temple having sex with “12 YO” bride.

    No transcript yet on CNN website yet.

    If Cooper is right, Jeffs is as good as convicted, he IMO will die an old man in Huntsville, TX. He better get used to wearing all white clothes because that’s what inmates wear in Texas prisons.

  196. If you have legally obtained evidence of sexual assault of a child, let’s prosecute ASAP!!! I’m behind you 100%.

    It really is tragic the manner in which the texas raid was implemented.

  197. Anonymous, the investigation done at the YFZ was correctly done. The only errors I can see were on the part of CPS. First they overreached then they caved entirely. I am very disappointed in the CPS decision makers.

  198. Blogo

    “Nowhere Stamp, have I ever defended the underage practices. Not ever.”

    And I havent accused you of defending underage marriage per se, now have I?

    I just point out that you work yourself up in an attempt to find excuses against prosecuting those who do. There is a reason for that, and if you dont want to share it, fine, situation noted.

    No one requires you to tell your background. But in the interest of discussion, you need to relax a little, its kind of tough talking to someone with a chip on their shoulder.

    Guess thats why so many posts have been deleted from polygville. BTW I have seen lots of others get deleted here and from all sides. Dont think your special. Heck some of my posts get deleted too.

    Say, I know this lady named 40 sumpthin…. Oh, never mind!

  199. That’s right, CPS ought not to have returned most of those children until / unless protection was in place. We know that better than 50% of adult males had committed criminal sexual assault acts against underaged females. Know. Babies are proof.

  200. Was it legally obtained?? I don’t think so… I told my friends when I heard about it that we would have to either sacrifice our constitution or the girl. That was before I heard that it was a crank call. Sad situation all around. I also think that the judge should recuse herself. If it was truly done legally, then she should have nothing to fear as far as upholding of evidence and convictions go. I heard from a very good source that… Oh, never mind. Smells fishy from far, far away.

  201. Yeah, its fishy all right, its why the FLDS are in some thirty plus litigations right now.

  202. Judge Walther has her i’s dotted and t’s crossed. She paid attention.

  203. Blogogre, Stamp simply asked you the question of when the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened and you tended to avoid answering him. Sadly, the MMM shares the same date with another tragic recent event in US history where more innocent Americans were brutally murdered.. The original MMM happened on September 11, 1857. The terrorist bombings of the Pentagon and the New York City Twin Towers was on September 11, 2001. The 2 dates happened 144 years apart, yet both dates will live in infamy.

  204. Anonyous 12:13, why should Judge Walthers recuse herself? She has no special bias against the FLDS that I’ve heard of. And she knows perfectly well that her rulings are going to be gone over with a fine tooth comb by the upper courts. Your insinuations aside (almost artfully done too), our legal system has plenty of checks and balances on it — unless you live in Short Creek. THEN you might have a problem with already recused legal officials trying to approve semi-legal paperwork to harass and intimidate non-FLDS.

  205. She appears to have a “special” bias. I am not even a player in this scenario and I strongly suspect her motives. What confidence does that generate? We’ll see how it all comes out in the wash.

    I do appreciate the strong desire to protect the children.

  206. I guess since I defend people for a living, I feel the need to say something in defense of Blogogre. This all started with him/her making a very generic comment about gnats and camels. It wasn’t directed to anyone and honestly had a lot of truth to it.

    Subsequently it’s gotten more personal and I’m not commenting on that; however, I think you need to realize that people piled on Blogogre for an innocuous comment.

    I think folks need to question whether they’re here to have a discussion with different points of view or to have a rah rah session where everyone agrees with you.

    I personally don’t care. What I appreciate about this site is the information sharing.

  207. Ron

    Lots of different viewpoints seem to be allowed here, and unless abusive, allowed to stay.

    Blogo had two posts removed, they said personal attacks, so I expect they were.

    The history of the blogodrama goes back to the polygville blog, I saw a note that Mike needed help because he was under attack, guess who was there trashing him?

    Blogo made a big point of dumping on Mike but couldnt reference any work of his own that was anything but critical. Follow along here, you’ll see.

    But who knows, perhaps he is someone whose anger will subside enought to converse with. He seems to have plenty of chances.

  208. ” It wasn’t directed to anyone and honestly had a lot of truth to it.”

    How can it have a lot of truth in it, if I can’t even figure out what is meant by it? What’s the gnat? What’s the camel? Who’s eating? Just vaguely insulting everyone on the blog does not constitute “a good point” to me, sorry. I don’t have trouble understanding most folks.

  209. The point as I took it was hyper focus on the small and insignificant. It wasn’t an insult to everyone on the blog. It was only an insult to those who chose to be insulted by it.

    Even assuming it WAS an insult, does every offense need to be escalated into a war?

  210. Blog aside guys…
    somebody posted that the CNN interviewer said (that’s three saids removed) that there is an actual tape of Jeffs having sex with a 12 year old…

    I don’t know where to even begin with that…
    a) do I even think about it being 3 saids removed?
    b) if I think about it do I cry or vomit?

    and, by the way,

    if, and if true – it would have been legally obtained and no wonder Jeffs is fighting so darn hard – he will be in a lot of danger (and no 40- I am not threatening I am making an observation based on the general behavior of the American public historically)….I hope that we will be well protected so that he can get legal and not non-legal justice.

    ps RIH – repeat after me… I will not engage….I will not engage…I will not engage – (on the blogs but do track him down and toast him)

  211. HHG

    Thanks for the wise advice. I’m repeating that right now.

  212. Yes, I saw that last night on CNN, HHG.
    Jon Kraukauer claimed that there is a tape of Warren Jeffs which was seized in Texas wherein Jeffs is having sex with a 12 yr old with two of his wives involved in the act on a temple bed.

  213. Stamp,
    It should be noted that in the final analysis, Ogre and Michael did end on good terms. The Ogre does respond to critique and redirection.

  214. Here’s portion of Anderson Cooper 360 on Warren Jeffs, the portion of interview mentioning tape of Jeffs with 12yo bride has been edited out. The original interview was about 6 minutes long, the video posted around 4 minutes.

    Also has legal expert speaking on Utah Supreme Court, who feels that improper decision was made.

  215. Tried to embed, but didn’t work, here’s link:

    http://cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2010/07/28/ac.jessop.krakaur.jeffs.cnn

  216. Where is the link, A Texan ?

  217. If what Kraukauer says is true, it’s beyond sick. I’ll await confirmation before I lose my breakfast.

  218. Notice that Carolyn states that underage marriages are still occurring in the FLDS

  219. Posted from another topic.
    I saw a re-run of Anderson Cooper this morning with Carolyn J, Ron K and Jeffrey T. It was very good. I thought all 3 were very well spoken and presented themselves and their views quite well. I recommend watching it if you are able to. If there was discussion about a video of W Jeffs at YFZ I must have missed that part.

  220. Man, Toobin literally blasted the Utah courts. Normally you don’t see TV pundits do that. He savaged them.

  221. The discussion of the video did take place, but it is not on the video in the link which was provided, for some reason.

  222. “Even assuming it WAS an insult, does every offense need to be escalated into a war?”

    When someone walks in using an inuslt tommy gun, the war has already started.

  223. Anon don’t think that all the evidence on Warren jeffs came from the ranch. Remember the red cadillac.

  224. When someone walks in using an inuslt tommy gun, the war has already started.

    Betty, you’re one of a kind. I’m still chuckling over the “insult tommy gun.”

  225. Ohh mmm the gardener’s bed?

    Well anyway I for one appreciate Judge Walther’s “bias” – toward US and Texas law. O yeah.

  226. Ron –
    Check your email.

  227. Ron, I think most of the “war” had to do with feelings generated from Michael’s blog. Yes, the initial comment was only generically snarky and yes, Blogogre has every right to express his/her generically snarky opinions. But I was burned by this person at Michael’s blog and considered the opening volley to be fair warning to expect more of the same. I’ve already seen at least one post that was thoughtful and had points to make, then it was back to criticisms. I’m going to let it go now, just trying to give you a little background to go with what you saw as an overreaction. It was more of a continuation and, honestly, I kind of feel like maybe Blogogre came here simply to continue the offense because no one shows up on Michael’s defunct blog for him/her to poke at.

  228. Minor detail, I know, but it’s bothering me. The analogy of the gnat and the camel, is, indeed, about focusing on details and not on larger issues. I understood the analogy at the get go, but it only had one side. Which of the issues are insignificant here and which are larger? A lot of the questions I had last night were of that sort; I honestly did not understand about half of what Blogogre was saying because of poor definition of reference of pronouns and incomplete analogies.

    For instance, it is coming out today that not all lawyers agree with this ruling, by far. So some would think that the SCOU ruling is judicial activism, and others think that trying Jeffs for accomplice to rape was. So just throwing the phrase into a sentence does not make it clear which of the many issues in this case is being labeled as such.

  229. Well, I’m glad you guys explained it. I sure was wondering what stirred things so vigorously.

  230. Jeffrey Toobin and Jon Kraukauer suggested that local politics in Utah are responsible for the SCOU decision yesterday, and I am inclined to agree.

  231. Problem is, it backfired, with major news networks going WTF on air, and it lays the question back on the

    Image of Utah.

    Child Molesters, Elevated

  232. Yup, I think so, too. I think if an imam in New York city was on trial for arranging a marriage between a 14 year old and a married man, sent the girl back to the “husband” even though she was unwilling and unhappy, etc., that this would have been over years ago and the imam would still be in jail.

  233. Here’s a transcript from CNN of Anderson Cooper’s 360 program where it is mentioned that Texas has video tape of Warren Jeffs raping 12 yo girl.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1007/27/acd.02.html

    The interview on Jeffs is towards end of transcript. If this is true, Jeffs is as good as convicted, he will never leave Texas prison system as long as he lives.

  234. Brava, Betty, spot on !
    Utahn political correctness is operative here.

  235. Here is the quote from Kraukauer I heard last night :
    “And the evidence, in the raid of 2008, they uncovered a treasure trove of evidence, including a tape recording and a transcript of Warren raping a 12-year-old girl. Actually, she had been 11 until 24 days earlier.”

  236. KSL radio in SLC interviewed Flora Jessop, who stated that Elissa Wall was in extreme danger that the FLDS will try to murder her.
    Nothing posted yet on website. Heard interview on Doug Wright radio show on KSL

  237. Well, I haven’t lost my lunch yet, and do wonder how Kraukauer got this information, but when and if I get if confirmed I do hope it happens on an empty stomach.

  238. If it is true that there is a tape of him raping a 12 yr old, I would say Warren will never see the outside of a cell.

  239. Yuppers. And we can all connect the dots and figure out who that was and why she was removed permanently from her mother’s custody.

    Thanks, CW.

  240. We all know that big white bed in the temple wasn’t for the gardener.

  241. Apparently there is a tape, Ruthie’s Girl, which will prove that.
    Did we know of the existance of the tape before this revelation by Jon Krakauer ?

  242. This is the first time I’ve heard of a tape.
    Too funny that the criminal comes with his own evidence!

  243. crickets chirping….

  244. My prayers will be with Elissa, that God will keep her safe and give her strength.

  245. Amen.

  246. Well Ron did point out a long time ago that Prosecutors just LOVE a verbiose crook. Warren was nothing if not verbiose. He really loved the sound of his own voice, didn’t he? 😉

  247. Amen.

  248. Elissa, Hang in there ! You can do it again

  249. Thank you Ron, and I appreciate your blog. It’s actually one of the best places now to find the braking news. I’m sorry for the distraction.

    And thank you S, i’m sorry you had to brunt some of the invective meant for me, but that’s how it goes sometimes. Be careful how you choose your friends… lol

    And Stamp… we would have no problem if you would just quit trying to morph me into one of your other enemies…(there are so many … kwim?) The nasty things you said about me were not the result of anything I had actually posted but your extrapolations from your own bad memories from other arguments with other people you thought I was supposed to be for some reason. Most of them trying to call me out for something or other. Which I deliberately ignored usually. Yes… follow the thread, and you will see that I made a reference to an intellectual discussion and you have been trying ever since to to make that into an indictment.

  250. Well, now you know why Flora gets no credibility. She’s going to be terribly dissappointed if there isn’t a big shoot out at the O K Corral eventually.

  251. No, I don’t know. What do you mean, about Flora?

  252. I think Flora speaks an emotional truth, and I respect her courage. Yeah, she’s a little intense and fragile. But, I don’t think she’d be disappointed, I think she’d be relieved. You are making her out to be mean and I don’t think that’s the case at all.

    I’ve actually wondered why some of the men that Warren has ousted have not tried to kill him. Heck, I’ve wondered why some of his wives haven’t tried to murder him while he’s sleeping. I think the group dynamics would lead very easily to violence and I’m actually surprised that there has been little to none so far.

  253. Double dittoes

  254. You know, Betty, I wonder that myself. I remember my exhusband thought it was okay to slap me once. I odn’t know what was on my face when he did that but he stammered something about me being hysterical. I simply replied, “Just remember, you have to sleep sometime.”

    Fortunately for him I calmed down during the three days he hid out at his mommy’s house. 🙂

  255. EXCLUSIVE: FBI looking into Colorado City arrest

    COLORADO CITY, AZ (ABC 4 News) – The FBI is taking an interest in the arrest last week of a Colorado City couple by town marshals.

    Matt and Genevive Hainline were arrested on Tuesday, July 20th, on their own property. The marshals claimed to have a temporary restraining order signed by a local justice of the peace against the Hainlines. The TRO essentially forbid them from entering their own back yard.

    Read more –
    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/EXCLUSIVE-FBI-looking-into-Colorado-City-arrest/7LddE_GAGkOqaxBl4W3vPQ.cspx?rss=20

  256. I’ve actually wondered why some of the men that Warren has ousted have not tried to kill him.

    ——————————–

    I have heard that he is afraid that could happen. There’s a history of infighting, murder and violence hanging over other Fundie Mormons, like the LeBarons and the Lafferty’s.

  257. http://truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=213
    Looks like little-miss-innocent is not so.

  258. I’d already earlier read that any of that foo was legally subject instead to the higher court orders concerning the Trust. I’m therefore unconvinced and underimpressed.

  259. Kinda puts it in context, though.

    Don’t kill the messenger.

  260. I’m totally unconvinced. Donald richter wouldn’t know the truth if it jumped out and bit him in the butt. He’s just a useless mouthpiece for the FLDS.

  261. The “Truth Will Prevail” site wouldn’t know truth if Jesus himself came down and told it to them.

  262. But it’s good to know that they haven’t changed their tactics — ad hominem, attack those who reveal the dirt, discredit them, and lie, lie, lie you behind off.

  263. I rest my case, Rebeckah, PT, GT and Mouse. Good night my omnipotent friends.

  264. You could probably check with the court yourself. It would be nice if you could report back to us as you won’t believe anyone else’s report. http://www.mohavecourts.com/Limited%20Courts/Moccasin/moccasin.htm

    But then you probably don’t really want to know anyway. It might destroy your illusions.

  265. … nation of laws and all that.

  266. We’ve known from day one that judge or jp had no venue in the case so cannot have made
    a court order.

  267. Samoan name maybe? Kala au li?

  268. “I rest my case, Rebeckah, PT, GT and Mouse. Good night my omnipotent friends.”

    You rest what case?

    I’m sorry, but the “Truth Will Prevail” site has posted far too many PROVEN lies for me to consider anything they have to say anymore. Like Sally lying on national television, Richter has destroyed his credibility. And the FLDS have no one to blame for the unwillingness of others to believe them but themselves. From lying about their “sacred cows” to their underage brides, they’ve destroyed any faith in their veracity — and they did it all by themselves.

  269. Granny Toad, a lot of Mormon Hawaiians move to this area. I’m not positive, but I would guess that J P Mitchell Kaulali is Hawaiian.

  270. There is a very beautiful Mormon temple and historical / visitation center on the Northern side of the island of Oahu crafted from white coral (if my memory serves me correctly) which I visited about 4 yrs ago when I was presenting some papers at a conference.
    There was a missionary outreach to the Polynesian people on that island founded about 100 yrs ago and there are many native Hawaiian converts to the LDS faith in Oahu.

  271. You cannot see it that clearly from this picture, but there is a lot of detailed intricate carving – here is a picture of the temple for the mission in Hawaii.

    http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/laie/gallery/download.php?id=234

  272. It is also my understanding that JP Kaulali is of Hawiian descent.
    There are many pacific islanders who are members of the LDS church.

  273. I found this link today on Religion News Blog

    http://www.booksandculture.com/articles/2010/julaug/churchjusticemission.html?paging=off

  274. Maybe the Hawaiian LDS migrate to Utah to be closer to the main temple ?
    Is it like a Catholic wanting to move to Rome ? (Just my thoughts.)

  275. !@ S, they move there to watch BYU play football. @!

  276. A couple of things on that IJM article really jumped out:

    That the average age of entry in Phoenix is 13. Average? woah what does that say about the limits? Unless they mean average more in the sense of median.

    And that Huston, Texas his the biggest problem with trafficking.

    There is a lot more… but you can read it if you wanna.

    I was particularly touched by the foot washing story. If it almost got me like that; I had to walk away for minute and take a few deep breaths to keep it back. I’m sure it will bring the tears right out of some of the old softies, (like Granny)

  277. Maybe they didn’t realize there were children. Did the parents mention them to the officers?

    Maybe they should have informed CPS!

  278. Ad Hominem Abusive*, BO. Unacceptable behavior. You’ve been told more than once.

    *that’s one of the more common logical fallacies used by trolls, along with straw man and red herring.

  279. Perhaps BO needs to learn there is no internet impunity here. A simple time out with instructions on basice common courtesy and self-respect may be useful.

    For instance, in order to respect yourself, first respect others.

  280. S PosteD the following:
    You cannot see it that clearly from this picture, but there is a lot of detailed intricate carving – here is a picture of the temple for the mission in Hawaii.

    http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/laie/gallery/download.php?id=234

    IMO the main reason the JP is cathering to FLDS is their votes help keep him in office, the combined votes of those who dislike FLDS, which would include many LDS as well as other faiths just might put him out of office, another case of letting ethics go out the door for political position.

  281. That’s why I consider him a rental.

  282. He knows who butters his bread, and he doesnt let the law get in the way of his decisions. Why they allow such kangaroo courts is beyond comprehension.

  283. That could very well be, A Texan. Didn’t this judge identify a conflict of interest, and then was slow to recuse himself. That certainly is not ethical.

  284. He’s been removed from all the trespass cases.

  285. Funny you should say that S. because ms. walther in tx is in that exact position yet refuses to recuse herself!!!

  286. I thought I was being nice with Granny. Go figure? Did you read the article?

  287. Blogogre: I found this link today on Religion News Blog
    http://www.booksandculture.com/articles/2010/julaug/churchjusticemission.html?paging=off

    ————————————

    Thank you for posting that. As a woman, there are few things that make me angrier than the fact that women today, all over the world, are still being treated as nothing more than a means for exploitive males to get something: sex, money, power, whatever.

    The FLDS is a religion in which a few select white males are given the power to exploit women and eliminate other males who compete with them for those women.

    It’s all about the penis.

  288. “Funny you should say that S. because ms. walther in tx is in that exact position yet refuses to recuse herself!!!”

    Please explain how. Ms. Walther has shown professionalism and objectivity from where I sit. She has turned down prosecution motions as well as defense motions. She has indulged the defense in several “hearings” that would not have been granted most defendants. A judge is not biased just because they don’t rule the way you think they should. A judge IS biased, however, when they place religious beliefs or commitments above the law.

  289. Hear hear, Rebeckah!

  290. And same to Anon E Mouse!

  291. Let’s begin with that mass bogus hearing in which the attorneys for the children had no voice. All to cover her a**. This followed the VERY questionable search warrents that she issued.

  292. Yes, anonymous, let’s begin there. How about you start by elaborating on why the attorney had no voice (were they sick? incompetent? sleepy?) and how it was all a big conspiracy to cover the judge’s ass.

    Don’t just make silly accusations – stick around and explain them!

  293. Anons never stick around, they just hit and run

  294. I’m still chuckling, wondering what that anon thought s/he meant. Where do they get this stuff!

  295. “Let’s begin with that mass bogus hearing in which the attorneys for the children had no voice. All to cover her a**. This followed the VERY questionable search warrents that she issued.”

    So, coming up with the best solution she could for an unprecidented number of children taken into care all at once makes her “biased”? Hmmm, I think that actually falls under the category of “not doing what you want her to do”. Just because Walthers didn’t do what you think she should have, it doesn’t follow that she was “biased”. Feel free to look up the definition sometime.

  296. I am always amazed by supposedly Christian groups which disobey the law and then try to use legal technicalities to escape their comeuppance.
    This is NOT consistent with New Testament teaching, as all those who are Christians are commanded to obey the law, unless the law forbids them to preach the Gospel. Romans 13 : 1-6, from the NIV :

    1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

    6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

  297. The above text commanding obedience of all Christians to civil authorities & civil law is further reinforced by St. Peter, the first person to receive “the keys” directly from Christ : 1 Peter Chapter 2 :

    13Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

  298. The FLDS don’t have to follow the New Testament – they follow Warren Jeffs instead.

    That way they can ignore things like this:

    “For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.” Mark 12:25

  299. Article of Faith # 12 which came from Joseph Smith,

    “We believe in being asubject to bkings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in cobeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”

    Apparently the flds do not belive in or follow Joseph Smith’s teachings.

  300. Good quote, chemist !

  301. Yes Mouse, unfortunately Warren Jeffs needs to read the Bible – since the Bible forbids a man to marry his father’s wife – and Warren Jeffs married his father’s wives. Additionally Jeffs arranged for men to marry sisters simultaneously, which is also a forbidden union according to Leviticus 18. Not to mention the marriages he arranged wherein the mother and daughters were married to the same man. Warren Jeffs is obviously a false prophet, and I don’t know why more of his followers haven’t figured it out yet.

    Leviticus 18 – from the NIV :

    1The Lord said to Moses, 2“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

    6“‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.

    7“‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

    8“‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.

    9“‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

    10“‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.

    11“‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

    12“‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.

    13“‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.

    14“‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

    15“‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.

    16“‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

    17“‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

    18“‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

  302. Oh, and Christians receive salvation through belief in Jesus Christ, not through Joseph Smith, which is what Mormons claim.

  303. In verse 18 the word which is translated from Hebrew as “rival wife” is the word t’zara, which is the Hebrew word for sister wife or co – wife in polygamous marriages.
    The translation of t’zara from Hebrew means enemy or opponent, so clearly Moses identified polygamous wives as having an oppositional relationship.

  304. The LDS do not belive that salvation comes through Joseph Smith. Jeesus Christ is the author of salvation.

  305. “How are you going to get your resurrection? You will get it by the President of the resurrection pertaining to this generation, and that is Joseph Smith. Hear it all ye ends of the earth; if ever you enter into the kingdom of God it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. This will apply to Jews and Gentiles, to the bond, and the free; to friends and foes; no man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned, without Joseph Smith saying so.” ~ Brigham Young

  306. As an active LDS person I do not believe that Joseph Smith is resposible for my salvation and resurrection. Jesus Christ and his atonement for the sins of mankind brings salvation and resurrection.

  307. Chemist I am glad to see that you feel that way

  308. The LDS people I associate with in my family and in my local LDS congregation, I am fairly certain, also feel that way.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

 
%d bloggers like this: