Open Discussion #34 – Dutson Trial, Priesthood records

Continued from Open Discussion #33

This month Dutson has had a continuance, signalling perhaps a guilty plea in the works.

Also, someone has posted additional Priesthood records here:

http://phrecords.files.wordpress.com

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 7, 2010.

432 Responses to “Open Discussion #34 – Dutson Trial, Priesthood records”

  1. I see what you’re talking about miele, the newly brought in curbing, wonder who those belong to. I’m not seeing the house with the round room. did it get torn down or something. i think view 0226 is looking over the temple toward cr300. it’s down that long straight path in the distance.

    The round room house is right behind king warren j’s.

    As for the four new houses, it reminds me of Eric Nichols monopoly. Instead of hotels, they’re back to building single houses.

    I know they’re reading this since in the new construction they put the A/c and service pack units on the freaking ground where they belong. Now, get out there and put up some metal around those propane tanks before one of your many ditsy van driving wives hit one of them and cause a mini Hiroshima. You’ve got kids on that ranch, for pete’s sake.

    Proud, in looking at the pictures carefully, it looks like they had some flooding they didn’t take into account when they built.
    In some spots it looks almost Biblical.

    What in the heck are the excavating behind the new low white whatever it is by the grain elevators? That’s quite a hole.

    Who put the number 10 in rocks so it could be seen from a plane and what does it mean. Is there also a 1 under it?

    King warren j probably just needs a couple inches of pedic foam over his mattress, to keep his bony self from getting pressure areas. Naomi, get on the stick.

  2. Is it just me, or is this really icky:

    “I did have Lori assist Naomie to be with me and help me between 11:00 a.m. and noon, and she was allowed to feel the heavenly session and the all-consuming fire from heaven.”

    I’m thinking it wasn’t “fire” and the actual source wasn’t “heaven.”

    That guy watched a lot of porn and, like Joseph Smith, he figured out a way to justify getting as much sex from as many women as possible.

    It creeps me out to even look at him.

  3. as far as i’m concerned all the heavenly sessions were about sex.

  4. I have restless legs – can I claim heavenly insight?

  5. Anon at 3:30PM:

    You forget that some of the participants in these so-called “heavenly sessions” were underage or had been “married” underage.

    You sound like an FLDS apologist to me…

  6. envy anon (duane), not likely. i think warren is as big a pervert as they come and to me he personifies evil.

  7. Is there anyone here who actually thinks that Duane is an agnostic from Austin ?
    I’ll bet any money that he is FLDS behind multiple proxy servers – he switches the proxies just about every night now.

  8. duane is nothing more than a pimple on the butt of mudpuppy.

    (ADMIN deleted and banned said pimple)

  9. Wonder if Naomie is packing up her crap in Draper and heading for Eldorado? Warren’s time in Utah seems to be running out. His refusal to sign he extradition warrant set a timeline in motion. If he refused on the 1st, he’s got to show just cause why he shouldn’t be extradited by the 31st.

  10. oops, now that duane’s comments have been deleted, it makes some others not make sense.

  11. That’s ok, PT, Duane’s comments never make much sense either.
    Good night

  12. Whoa! Did anyone else read in the Success they’ve convened another Grand Jury for Yearning For Zippers? (HT: Stamp!)

    Anyone know was-sup?

    PS: FLDS Texas please tell Cat I’m not the late night annon.
    TD#2/Bonnie crew.

  13. Ole dog deci duane is skulking around like a whipped dog trying to leave his lying comments here. What a jerk!! Thanks for deleting his carp comments.

  14. I guess I should learn my lesson and not feed the trolls!

  15. that’s ok miele, I know that you are not the real nocturnal anon –
    where is nocturnal these days? any new messages regarding lyle jeffs ?

  16. That last series of two that were posted were possible / probable FLDS. They are welcome to post if they can keep it civil. The posts deleted admittedly sounded like duane who was banned for being rude and abusive.

  17. I thought Duane was banned for repeatedly logging on under new aliases?

  18. Sorry for the double post but did folks get banned for saying FU Alinusara?

  19. No, we sent them roses.

  20. And gave them high fives and atta boys.

  21. This is duane, I don’t know who anon 3:30 is, didn’t read the post and it wasn’t me.

    (delete comment)

  22. Speaking of FU Alinusara, where is Fred? Has there been a sighting ?

  23. The latest arrests in Short Creek:

    BARLOW, KELLY TRUMAN
    Birth Date: 11/10/91
    Address : 85 WEST APPLE AVENUE, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    00:31:38 07/08/10 Cooke, Curtis HILD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-12a-302 NO INSURANCE BM WCJ2 400.00 [No Payments Made]
    41-1A-1303(1)i IMPROPER REGISTRATION CM WCJ2 40.00 [No Payments Made]
    32A-12-209 ALCOHOL- MINOR CONSUM BM WCJ2 500.00 [No Payments Made]
    ______________________________________________
    STUBBS, JEFFREY SHAD
    Birth Date: 09/22/88
    Address : 85 W CHERRY AVE, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    18:47:00 07/06/10 Richmond, D HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-6-204 BURGLARY-VEHICLE AM 5DIS 1890.00 1890.00
    76-6-404 THEFT- UNDER $300 BM 5DIS 587.00 587.00

    _____________________________________________
    STUBBS, RICHARD CURTIS
    Birth Date: 11/11/78
    Address : 225 W APPLE AVE, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    18:44:00 07/06/10 Richmond, D HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    WARRANT-C/B WARRANT-CASH OR BOND 3F 7DCE 5000.00 5000.00

    __________________________________________________
    JESSOP, JASON LEE
    Birth Date: 08/08/80
    Address : PO BOX 2578, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    15:00:00 07/06/10 Reid, Donald WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    COMMITMENT COMMITMENT-COURT ORDE BM WCJ3 0.00 [No Payments Made]

    ________________________________________________
    MACKERT, JOSHUA BRENT
    Birth Date: 03/27/87
    Address : 3754 TUSCALOOSA WAY, West Jordan, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    13:00:00 07/06/10 Roundy, Jonatha HILD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    MOHAVE COUNTY MOHAVE COUNTY DETAINE NA MOHA 2385.00 [No Payments Made]

  24. Doesn’t that seem like a lot of arrests for such a small town?

  25. personally, i’m still waiting for the original nocturnal anon to come back and proclaim the greatness of lyle. btw nocturnal, lyle and mable had a son who was named after lyle’s father.

  26. WOW, $1.7 million in government grants and NO OVERSIGHT?

    Who is policing private schools?

    Education ministry doesn’t screen what’s taught

    By Daphne Bramham, Vancouver Sun July 8, 2010

    It’s against the law to teach religious intolerance, sedition, social change through violent action or racial and ethnic superiority in B.C. schools.

    These reasonable limits are specifically spelled out in the act governing independent schools. The problem is that they’re almost impossible to enforce.

    What school administrator — no matter how zealous or bigoted — wouldn’t have the foresight to warn teachers not to leave that kind of material lying around in case there’s a snap inspection? What teacher, regardless of how hate-filled or radical, can’t pull a benign lesson plan out at the dreaded moment of an evaluation?

    But B.C.’s independent schools can formulate their own full-credit courses. All that the education ministry requires is that the independent school authorities submit a course name and synopsis along with the number of hours of instruction and the intended learning outcomes.

    No one in the ministry vets the texts or resource materials. Nobody screens the content. The only people who view the content are members of the external evaluation committee, whose members are not ministry staff. The ministry delegates that work to administrators from other independent schools.

    The education minister can ask to see the course materials for these locally developed programs, although no one seems to know whether any minister ever has.

    The material is not available to the public.

    In response to a freedom of information request, I was told: “The ministry of education does not collect BAA (board/authority-authorized course materials) for any schools and does not possess copies of textbooks.”

    I had asked for the textbooks and resource materials for the Grades 1 to 12 religious studies at the two fundamentalist Mormon schools in Bountiful, which will receive $1.7 million in government grants this year. Their combined enrolment over the last five years has risen to 432 from 262.

    Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/life/policing+private+schools/3249657/story.html#ixzz0t6ZI9vs5

  27. Cool. Sounds like the author wanted to force his brand of religious intolerance on those schools and was hoisted on his own petard.

  28. Quote from the Vancouver Sun : “I asked because I have some taped sermons preached by Warren Jeffs, the prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which runs Bountiful elementary secondary school (BESS). It has 230 students and gets $961,497 in government grants.”

    Weren’t we just told a week ago that the Bountiful School (BESS) graduates 8 students per year, with great scores ?

    How is it that they have 230 students, but only 8 graduate per year ?

  29. The author is a female (Daphne is a girl’s name). She attempted to investigate whether British Columbia’s laws are being upheld in its taxpayer-funded private schools. Instead, she uncovered a glaring lack of oversight that has most likely led to children being openly taught intolerance, racism and hatred in the classroom.

    In short, Ali, your reading comprehension sucks and FU.

    Now where are my roses!

  30. What happened to the rest of the students ? Why didn’t they graduate ?
    What kind of fuzzy math will they invoke to explain this now ?

  31. …didn’t Duane claim that there were less than 40 children in that entire school just last week ?

  32. it was probably wishful thinking on duane’s part. as for Alin, why don’t you go on back over to mudpuppy’s site and help duane in his position of being a pimple on his butt.

  33. The BESS website lists Foundation Skills Assessments test results for 18 Grade Four students and 23 Grade Seven students. So that’s 41 students right there in just two of the grades.

    http://www.bountifulschool.org/Academics.html

    Incidentally, the website is still pretty bad but it looks like they’ve been working on it a bit.

    And CW, eight graduates per year sounds very low to me too. Is there a link somewhere for this statistic? I don’t know how many Twelfth Grade students they have but supposing it’s the same size as the current Grade Seven class, that’s a 40% graduation rate.

  34. from here, Ellie, as per their website :

    “Of the 49 students who have graduated from our school in the last 6 years, 20 have gone on to post secondary education or trade school and many of them are on the Dean’s List at various universities for high grade point averages.”

    Duane claimed that there were only 40 students enrolled in the school as an explanation for why the graduation rate was so low.
    Now we see that is not true – there are 230 students there.

    …and if they maintain a wonderful atmosphere of academic inquiry and scholarship, how come more than 50% of the graduates go to “trade schools?”

  35. 8 does sound very low.

  36. 230/12 grades = approximately 24 students per grade. 49 students graduating over 6 years = 8 students per year. 26/6 = 4.3

    But the numbers are probably worse than that. If you assume that between 14 and 16 girls start dropping out and boys start working, there is probably not an equal number of children in all the classes. I suspect that the number who graduate high school compared to the number who started school in first grade is much lower than even the numbers above reflect.

    And the grants amount to about $4000 per student. Average for the US is about $9000 per student per year.

  37. “Cool. Sounds like the author wanted to force his brand of religious intolerance on those schools and was hoisted on his own petard.”

    What?!? Where do you get “forcing his brand of religious intolerance” from “I want to see what is actually in the course material”? What a troll you are!

  38. Apparently the religious intolerance was in the FLDS curriculum which is controlled by Warren Jeffs.
    Didn’t Warren teach that African Americans were evil ?
    Why should the taxpayers pay for a curriculum based on racism ?

  39. I think the big question that is being asked in the article is “Why have regulations on homeschooling if no one is performing any oversight to make sure they’re followed?” Apparently the Canadian Governmnet is perfectly willing to just give the FLDS and their offshoot money and trust that they won’t teach what they teach.

  40. i agree, if they are going to take federal money, be it canadian or american, then they should have to show their curriculum and results to the providing entity.

  41. Nobody liked the roses? I’m hurt. sniff.

  42. They were beautiful !

  43. what roses, the ones for saying FU to Alin? If it was those, then they were beautiful.

  44. Wow… good ol’ Pat Boone. Haven’t heard his voice in a lotta years. Nice roses for Ellie, Betty!

  45. Whatever you say, ellie. Whatever you say I agree completely… And you, too, PT. Whatever you say.

  46. I just saw my roses now and they brightened my grey rainy morning. Thanks Betty!

    Insomniac Anon: I’m not sure what you’re wearily agreeing with but I guess it’s nice sometimes to have a spirit of harmony. Thanks!

  47. Actually, after a moment’s thought, I realized the idea of unquestioning assent gags me. That’s much more Warren’s style than mine.

    Nightime Anon: I’d much rather you took charge of your own opinions, developed your own knowledge and used the reasoning faculties God gave you. It’s called Open Discussion so we should be discussing openly!

  48. I have to say I agree with ellie. I think in general we should try to be tolerant of dissenting opinions.

    Alin, while high on the troll scale is generally courteous and hasn’t engaged in hurtful conduct (well at least not much that I’ve seen.)

    Then again, what the hell do I know?

  49. Looks like another FLDS man is in the clinker.

    Crash that closes SD interstate involves 700-pound blocks of cheese

    A two-vehicle crash on Thursday morning west of the Salem Exit on Interstate 90 closed the interstate for about five hours until about 4 p.m.

    The crash happened when Ronald Scott Jessop, 24, of Washington, Utah, fell asleep at the wheel of a 2005 Kenworth semi-truck, according to the South Dakota Highway Patrol.

    The Kenworth carried a load about 25 blocks of cheese, with an estimated weight of 700 pounds per block.

    The Kenworth struck the rear of a Ford Explorer being towed by a 1999 Air Stream Cutter driven by Betty A. Sullivan, 73, of Wichita, Kan.

    The Explorer went into the south ditch. The Air Stream entered the center median and rolled, while the Kenworth entered the south ditch and rolled.

    Sullivan suffered minor injuries. A passenger in the Air Stream, 74-year-old Leonard Sullivan, suffered serious, non-life threatening njuries. Jessop was uninjured.

    Jessop was taken into custody and charged with careless driving and driving with a suspended commercial driver license.

  50. Alin seems to be OK over here (sometimes), it’s just that he/she/it is about as two-faced as they come. You should see what is posted under that handle over at mudpuppy’s place.

  51. From a different news story:

    Jessop, the driver of the semi, has been cited for driving without a license and careless driving. He also has an outstanding warrant on a failure to appear in court on a separate charge.

    http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail6162.cfm?Id=102195

  52. I think Alin wins the passive aggressive division of trolldom hands down, and I, for one, do not think that’s courteous. I’m not suggesting that he/she/it be banned, but a little FU sure clears the air now and again.

  53. I’ve been avoiding Mudpucky’s and Hugh’s sites of late and I must say that I have not missed them.

  54. Betty: I agree witjh both of your comments. Yes, alin should not be banned and is generally courteous. Mad bill’s and huge ego’s sites are defenitely places to avoid. Now duane, I think has been banned from this site and from other sites, which is the right and correct thing to do to the ole liar dog.

  55. mudpuppy’s got a large picture of ranger nick posted, great eye candy.

  56. I agree, Betty. Alin is generally courteous but he/she/it is slimy. Personal attacks are never the way to go but Alin’s unsubtle attempts at trolling earn the occasional FU, Alin.

  57. He is also often uninformed and misinterpets the article and situation. We can always call on Fred when needed.

  58. Fred is really handy to have around.

  59. PT requested a post on extradition. I did a quick and dirty one here.

  60. Thanks Ron.

  61. Well if you want to see what I look like in real life you can go to Hugh McBryde’s site. Yes, that’s really me and I’m not too pleased.

    If you couldn’t give a crap about what I look like, (and honestly I can’t say I’d blame you) but want to see how I’m handling this – feel free to read my open letter to Hugh.

  62. Hugh seems quite thrilled to receive any attention, especially negative attention.

    Every time we talk about him, we’re feeding his psychosis.

    I feel dirty just talking about him right now.

  63. I think you are handling it admirably. I’m not sure I’d handle it as well myself.

  64. While I was viewing Ron’s link and the crap Hugh put up I found this:

    I am going to guess that Texas will drop extradition proceedings, depending on judge selection, and who the judge is. I don’t know enough about such matters, but if Walther is somehow involved again, Warren WILL go to Texas for sure.

    This is an educated guess based on some “research.”

    If extradition proceedings are dropped, it will have bearing on all the cases.

    I think.

    I always knew Hugh was an idiot, but putting this answer up and then Ron’s picture leaves no doubt that the man is a total and complete idiot.

  65. The way I read what Ron wrote, it really isn’t a “Warren Jeffs” thing, it’s more a State to State thing. Texas asked for Jeffs and Utah’s gonna give him to Texas. After he’s convicted in Texas then they can draw straws to see where he will serve his sentence.

    Works for me, bring Warren on. Texas justice awaits him.

  66. Yeah Ron, I’d say you’re definitely handling this much better than most would. Don’t let him drag you down to his level.

  67. Ron,
    Well, sorry that this happened, but it is a nice photo.

  68. I think Jeff’s lawyers are trying to get a forum outside of Texas in which to question the warrants. But I think they are barking up the wrong tree with this one.

  69. I agree with Cat, you’re a nice looking fellow, and I really like your shirt. That said, doing what he’s doing is a little like rape. He must be out of his mind screwing with an attorney.

    Take it as a compliment that he needed your picture to get blog hits.

    While you’re around, Ron, can I ask a another question? With respect to Grand Juries, does the prosecutor get several sessions with them in different months to present his case, or does the case generally get presented at one time?

    I ask this because of the article in the Eldorado Success this week. Apparently Eric Nichols met with a Grand Jury in Schliecher County for three hours regarding the YFZ, but no indictments were returned.

    Do you think that this is something that would be on going, or did the Grand Jury fail to return an indictment?

    Thanks. Also, thank you for your tutorial on extradition.

  70. Ron,
    Well–I think it is wrong to post your picture–but..I’m sorry I will miss it; I don’t go to hugh’s site..my computer freezes up everytime I do…heck…

  71. Miele

    It’s very common for a prosecutor to spend lots of time with a grand jury before asking for an indictment. Depending on the complexity of the case they could spend days, weeks, or even month before actually asking for an indictment.

  72. Thank you very much, Ron.

  73. I don’t think Warren’s attorney’s have the right to question the search warrants in the extradition proceeding. It is simply a matter of whether or not he is the person wanted in the indictment(s).

  74. PT, about the article you posted above, is the still picture the semi? Who puts blocks of cheese on little tiny furniture feet instead of palatalizing it? I hope SD called out the drug dogs.

    Those poor people who got nailed by this illegal punk just lost a classic motor home Airstream no longer makes.

  75. Yes, I agree, PT. But that doesn’t mean he won’t try.

  76. I think there was a picture of both the airstream and the tractor-trailer rig. Not sure which is which, but i especially loved the part where Mr. Jessop had other outstanding warrants.

  77. Oh I’m sure he’ll try Betty, especially if it’s Pic the Prick, but since it will be Texas and not that poor sap from Mohave County, AZ who Pic is going up against, I have all the confidence in the world that Texas will prevail.

  78. I just tried to embed the video from the crash so you can see the mess. I was unsuccessful so here is the link to the article and the video is on the right side – just below the photo is the play button.

    http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail6162.cfm?Id=102195

  79. This is just another reason why you should check your contractor to ensure they are licensed and insured before putting them on the job.

    I reckon the poor folks who were injured could sue that trucking company into bankruptcy.

    I dont know if the insurance covers it if he is driving on a suspended license. Likely multiple people are at fault.

  80. I’ve been reading the dictations……

    Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that maybe Naomi is mentally ill? According to Carolyns book her mother had psychological issues, and some of the things she is reporting in “heavenly sessions”, like warrens body disappearing, lights and voices etc could only be delusions. And it seems too elaborate and consistant for her to fake.
    Maybe Warren liked her so much cause her psychosis fed and authenticated his own delusions.
    If that’s the case it is very sad

  81. i’ve wondered about naomie too. i’ve often wondered if what she reports happening in “heavenly sessions” isn’t what she wants to see happen instead of reporting warren snores when he sleeps.

  82. Considering how many mental problems have an inheritance component to them and considering that there is a high degree of “inbreeding” in the FLDS, it’s not surprising that many of them suffer from mental disorders.

    It does seem that you often hear of people from the FLDS with mental issues.

  83. my sympathies go out to the family of michael emack, both in and out of the flds in the death of emack’s 21 year old son. he was apparently the victim of a canoeing accident in great falls, montana on the 4th of july.

  84. Proud, maybe the heavenly fire turns him into his alter-ego Lady Gaga?

  85. How tragic for the Emack family to have the dad in prison. Especially sad for the mother and sibblings.

  86. ooops! “siblings”

  87. i don’t know if the mother is still in, but there are at least 2 brothers who are out.

  88. Warren = Lady Gaga? I think that might be an insult to Gaga if ya know what I mean.

  89. Well, like a fake Lady Gaga. One without the talent, but with the wig and the shades.

  90. To the poster bringing info about the semi-crash in South Dakota- I’ve checked the video and the related articles but I couldn’t see any place what type of plates were on the semi. Canadian ?

    Hwy. 90 goes thru Pringle. I’d be interested in his log book but I am quite sure that isn’t up to par either.

    I often wondered whatever happened to all the cows that they said they had at the Ranch. There were milk trucks coming and going from Utah to Texas early on. There were expenses for cattle but I never saw enough cattle for them to make enough money on until after the raid. And even then it wasn’t a lot. But more than they had at the beginning.

    The company that hired him is in big trouble. Probably more so than the driver. Although I hope they throw the book at him. I had a very good friend killed in an accident similar to this. She left behind two little boys to grow up with out their mother. Sad. Very very sad.

    If anyone sees anything in your internet travels please share. Thanks.

  91. Ron raised the issue regarding mental illness in the FLDS.

    It should also be noted that the prevalence of mental illness in polygamous Muslim families is higher than the prevalence of mental illness in Muslim monogamous families. There are many articles in the scientific literature which support this finding.

    Here is a link to an article which has a synopsis in its introduction regarding mental illness in polygamous Muslim families.

    http://ipac.kacst.edu.sa/eDoc/2006/161487_1.pdf

  92. I can go for a fake LG, Miele, I just didn’t want to insult the real one, I’ve heard she can be vicious.

  93. an older anon at 6:47 PM on 7/10…

    Emack left the mother whose son died and his siblings behind and went to Texas because Jeffs did not find many older women “worthy”. He then “married” a very young “wife” for whom he is now in jail. So the older wife is probably not particularly affected by his being behind bars, since she wasn’t seeing much of him anyway.

  94. Walton, I’d be willing to bet that the log book isn’t filled out properly, especially if he’s got an expired or suspended license. I think Abram had some trouble with the log book also. Don’t know if it’s because they don’t want people to know where they’ve been or just additional disregard for the law.

  95. Here is a study from Pakistan which indicates that women in polygamous marriages have a higher incidence of mental illness.

    http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/177/6/557

  96. wow, no middle of the night nocturnal posts last night. what gives?

  97. Oh oh more magickal cows?

    Tell me, what else might milk tank trucks be hauling?

  98. Or might they just be thieving more sellable or useable heavy wheel stock?

  99. what happened to the Nocturnal Anons last night ?

    Duane must have run out of proxy servers.

    Here is another article from Jordan, where it is documented that polygamy is a risk factor for depression and mental illness in wives as well as marital strife.

    http://www.jabfm.com/cgi/reprint/18/2/125

  100. Another interesting study on the prevalence of mental illness in polygamous vs. monogamously married women

    You can buy the full text of the article if you like, the abstract is free.

    http://isp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/52/1/5

  101. Cat

    That’s very interesting. Although I wonder if polygamy causes mental issues or people with mental issues tend to flock to polygamy. Clearly the link exists.

  102. Ron,
    There was a study in Saudi Arabia which addressed this issue.
    Apparently the mental illness was not described prior to entering the polygamous marriage.
    I will try to post a link later.

  103. I would think the lack of attention from the father, and the competition between mothers for resources would have an effect on the security of the children and their definition of self.

  104. I agree Betty – you have to feel sorry for those who suffer the effects of it.

    It’s really like a ponzi scheme. A few get the benefits and everyone else ends up getting hosed.

  105. Proud Texan @8:47 I’d say your right on both counts. But… it also says a lot about the company that hires and sends them out on runs. The scene of 25 – 700 blocks of cheese has me a bit confused. He was traveling East on 90 where did he get the cheese AND who orders such a large amount coming from such a location?

    Huesos@8:51 – Scary thougt isn’t it?

  106. So, the guy was hauling cheese? The report I read said nothing about what his cargo was.

    The sad part is I’ll bet the people hurt by this guy will probably have a very hard time getting a recovery. I’ll bet there’s no insurance on Jessop or the truck. They could maybe sue the dairy but still it’s going to be tough for them to be compensated for their injuries.

  107. Somewhere in one of the reports it told that he was hauling cheese.

  108. Well, you’ve got to admit. Those FLDS are awfully predictable.

  109. The semi was carrying about 25 blocks of cheese estimated to weigh 700 pounds each. The state Department of Transportation used pay loaders and dump trucks to remove the cheese. Ace Towing of Salem brought in wreckers to move the vehicles.

  110. Yeah, it had to be FLDS cheese and most likely an FLDS truck. I represent some truck drivers and unless they have all their paperwork (i.e. insurance, permits, licenses) they won’t be able to haul a load.

    The only way he could have gotten on the road with any load is if it was an FLDS job.

  111. I am at a loss who would be buying blocks of cheese like this. Grocery stores buy their stuff thru a wholesale company. Comes already packaged. (in packages smaller than 700 lb.)

    Even those that use cheese in art shows wouldn’t be buying a “truck load” of cheese. So who ordered the cheese? And… more importantly where did the cheese come from?

    Places like Cheeto’s and other places wouldn’t dare take a chance getting cheese that isn’t inspected and put into inspected trucks. So I am thinking there is one big rat out there.

  112. The trucking industry isn’t what it use to be. I’ve met a lot of fine people who do trucking for a living and I’ve met some that should be in jail for a lot of different reasons.

    Any trucker running without a license is scum in my book but any outfit that hires a trucker without a license is far worse. Crooked Aholes that hire people on the run for whatever reason and work them like dogs. One dirty deed after another. jmo

  113. ProudTexan,
    Where did you read that the canoe drowning victim is Mike Emack’s son? I read this updated news article that says “GREAT FALLS – The search for a man reported missing in the Missouri River on Sunday has resumed, this time with a private party.

    At least 20 men are scouring the shores and the water between Black Eagle and Rainbow Dams.

    They would not tell us their connection to the missing man, but did confirm that they are looking for the body of the 21-year old Utah man who disappeared after his canoe capsized on July 4th.

    They brought several trucks, most with Idaho or Utah license plates, as well as trailers, a boat, two wave-runners, and an inflatable canoe.”

    This sounds like it could be a group of FLDS since they are being so secretive about who they are. But, are you SURE it is Emack’s son?

    http://www.kpax.com/news/search-continues-for-man-missing-in-missouri-river/

  114. Brooke’s a day late as usual.

    http://www.tribblogs.com/polygamyfile/2010/07/missing-canoeist-is-flds-man/

  115. I got it from one of his brother’s anon, so far, as of this morning, no body has been found.

  116. That is really sad PT. Thanks for the info.

    Did Willie also tell Brooke about digging up the Cookes’ front yard illegally and then billing them for it?

  117. Medvecky says that the Calgary Herald has a story on a human heart take for “blood atonement” in Bountiful. No link. I searched the Herald and the internet and can’t find anything, and Medvecky does not provide a link. Is there any truth to this, or has he finally really gone over board? Oh, and didn’t he quit running his blog a week or so back????

  118. Of course there’s no linke. And it’s hardly the first lie Medvecky has posted.

    Not that it makes much difference but I think he claims it was the Calgary Sun, not the Herald. They “Sun” family of newspapers can be a bit pulpy but they’re not tabloids. They don’t print obvious lies. That’s Medvecky’s jurisidiction.

  119. No anon, it doesn’t appear that Willie gave any statement about having the Cooke’s yard dug up and then billing them for it. Brooke is always a little late, so that might show up, but I hop you aren’t holding your breath.

    As for mudpuppy, he says he got “assurances” that he was looking for from the ranch suing the state of Texas, so he’s keeping on. I for one would love for some of the FLDS to file suit in civil court where they can’t stand behind pleading the 5th amendment all the time.

  120. If ONLY FLDS really would file suit to learn that their criminal lives can be laid out for the world to see like an open book.

    If only.

    Like brer rabbit would say “Please please please don’t throw me into that briar patch!”

  121. Walton you’re just TOO clever!

    Whose cheese was that and who ordered it, where was it headed, is one helluva good question.

    That boy really cut the cheese, didn’t he.

  122. we’re on the same page briar huesos. i’d love for danny jessop to get back on the witness stand without the benefit of pleading the 5th.

  123. Yeah mmhmm discovery.

  124. There was one civil suit filed by an flds woman, Naomi Johnson after the “raid”. The suit was filed on her behalf by Texas attorney Robert Gibson, Jr. and was later withdrawn by Mr. Gibson. He cited the Texas immunity laws and the poor chances of a successful suit for withdrawing the suit. I think medvecky is deluding himself.

  125. I think medvecky is deluding himself.

    It’s funny, well in a twisted sort of way. People are going to believe what they want to believe despite the facts. I’m still waiting for poster kbp to pay up on a bet he made.

    I kept telling people that with the Texas immunity laws and the basic facts of these cases that any lawsuits against the state were massive losers and most likely wouldn’t find a lawyer who’d go anywhere near them.

    I even said there might be a fluke case or two filed but that they’d go no where. A lot of lawyers have no idea how hard it is to sue the government.

  126. Nah Chemist. Naomi had a child still under state supervision though no information was forthcoming on what specifically gave probable cause to investigate Naomi. Remember this was already after Texas Supreme court gave it’s decision. What happened is both the state of Texas and Naomi traded non suits.

  127. You’re right Ron. Texas would like wrestling a 800 pound gorilla.

  128. And Alin proves one of Ron’s points, ” People are going to believe what they want to believe despite the facts.”

    You are really laughable, Alin. The FLDS are finding that Texas is the 800 lb gorilla, not them.

  129. alin, naomi johnson had 2 other big problems in her lawsuit, 1. she was married at 16 and 2. she was married to one of merril’s sons, so little merrianne, who was married to the prophet at age 12, was family. yeah, that was going to fly. keep listening to mudpuppy, he’ll give you lots of good info, NOT!!!

  130. You are really laughable, Alin. The FLDS are finding that Texas is the 800 lb gorilla, not them.
    ==================================
    Umm, I’m not sure what you are finding laughable when I said the exact same thing you did.

  131. alin, naomi johnson had 2 other big problems in her lawsuit, 1. she was married at 16 and 2. she was married to one of merril’s sons,
    —————————————————-
    Which is irrelevant to her skills as a parents. Hence no sense why the state would take her child into custody.

  132. Why is her age “irrelevant to her skills as a parent,” when there is documented evidence in the sociological literature that children born to teenagers have lower levels of academic achievement and poorer outcomes than children born to women over age 21 ? It IS relevant!

  133. Roman Polanski will not be extradited to the US from Switzerland, as per MSN : so this man raped a teenager, and will suffer no consequences.

    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/38201135

  134. Some countries protect criminals, even someone else’s criminals. Here, there are even a couple of states that protect criminals so long as their roots are LDS. Kinda like mafia, very much like mafia. Family ya know.

  135. Alin wrote “Texas would like wrestling an 800 lb gorilla.”, Alin. The meaning seems to me that in that sentence the FLDS/polygamy is the gorilla and Texas is doing the wrestling. Maybe you meant to write “Texas would BE like…”? Otherwise, I’m sticking with my comment.

    Besides the age of the woman herself, but also the fact that she was married early would make her more likely to subject her own daughters to such treatment. Also, I’m betting she lived in a family that had other under aged brides and possibly in a house that had other under aged brides. That matters as far as conditioning towards sexual assault of a minor. That’s the whole point, sugar! It’s a toxic environment.

  136. Very disappointed in Switzerland’s ruling. Seems they decided to try him there instead of allowing the USA to do so.

  137. i’m guessing a lot of naomi’s decision to drop her suit came from the fact that her husband, joseph newel jessop could be charged with the same crime as the men who have already been found guilty and gone to jail. joseph also had another wife, so it wasn’t a monogamist relationship.

    the fact that she herself was married at 16 and that she was living in a polygamist relationship along with the fact that her father-in-law had married off his 12 year old would have a lot to do with her parenting or lack thereof skills. any granddaughter of merril jessop is highly likely to be married off at a young age. look at brenda lei and loretta jane.

  138. i don’t agree with the ruling about polanski, but i understand that if the us didn’t provide everything that was asked of them then they had no right to except switzerland to follow through and extradite him. after reading the cnn article, it looks like polanski can now live in either switzerland or france without fear of extradition since it said that the us could not apply to switzerland again to extradite him.

  139. If Robert Gibson thought he could have succeeded in a civil suit against the Texas CPS, et al on behalf of Naomi Johnson he would have pursued it, rather than settle for something that was going to happen anyway. Almost all of the flds children were being non-suited. If Texas personal injury attorneys thought these suits would be successful they would be lined up at YFZ to solicit plaintiffs from amongst the flds people. The fact that they are not doing that speaks volumes.

  140. it does chemist, personal injury attorneys are notorious about soliciting clients and if they thought there was any money to be made they’d go after it. the biggest pi firm in angelo helped as attorney ad litems and if they didn’t file pi cases, there was a reason.

  141. Alin wrote “Texas would like wrestling an 800 lb gorilla.”, Alin.
    ========================================================
    Aye. Two folks at fault, myself for not writing more clearly and yourself for reaching a conclusion that was unmerited. As for the young lady in question, I’m not sure if she was herself a victim of sexual assault. However, if so, I’m reasonably sure none of us want to automatically remove children from crime victims.

  142. Sorry, Alin, I apologize deeply for interpreting your writing as you wrote it rather than as you meant to write it. :sarcasm:

    And you just refuse to get it, don’t you? CPS is going to remove children from homes where OTHER children are sexually assaulted! HELLO?????

  143. Well yes and no Betty. If you remember right the state did not remove Stacy Dugard’s children from her care and custody.

  144. alin, if you are referring to jaycee dugard out in california, she agreed to counseling for herself and her children. big difference.

  145. Why is her age “irrelevant to her skills as a parent,” when there is documented evidence in the sociological literature that children born to teenagers have lower levels of academic achievement and poorer outcomes than children born to women over age 21 ? It IS relevant!

    catwhisperer said this on July 12, 2010 at 9:06 AM

    I feel I need to respond to this comment and I’m not doing it to cause any rift, I just happen to disagree with this.

    I had my daughter at barely 17 and she is one of the most intelligent people I know (and I’m not just being partial), has a bachelor’s degree, raising two very intelligent daughters of her own and is a very successful business woman so this does not always apply. I’m sure there are probably some that don’t fare well, and perhaps the chances are greater to not succeed, but not always. I was a young teenager that decided my children would have better advantages than I did so it all depends on the individual teenage parent. I was just stubborn enough to make it work out for my children.

  146. i am beyond disgusted that mudpuppy took something as beneficial as feeding children in the summer and tried to make it in to some religious profiling or something. any child (or adult for that matter) who shows up at one of the sites is going to get fed, regardless of religion. i don’t believe there is a program in eldorado, but if the flds want to drive to san angelo for lunch and show up at one of the locations, they will be fed, no questions asked.

    the fact that he rewrote yet another newspaper article to make it appear that the flds are being discriminated against just shows what an evil and disgusting man he really is.

  147. kasoe, it can and does work out in some cases, but the vast majority aren’t success stories like yours is.

    in truth, naomi johnson and her daughter are just chattel to the flds. the daughter will be bargained off to the highest bidder when she becomes a teenager. the fact that this child is merril jessop’s granddaughter makes it all the more likely that it will happen.

  148. PT, I agree that the vast majority probably don’t succeed but it’s not fair to state that it is an “always” outcome. I have living proof of that.

    I also agree that Naomi and her daughter are chattel. And they probably don’t stand much of a chance of succeeding in anything other than being breeders, as long as they have the current profit anyway. As sad as that is, it’s probably true. I would hope that if this not what Naomi wants in life for daughter that she grows a pair and tells the FLDS leaders where else they can stick it and makes a change in her life so that her daughter can have more opportunities in life than being another piece of property to an old geezer.

  149. “Well yes and no Betty. If you remember right the state did not remove Stacy Dugard’s children from her care and custody.”

    Why should they? She was no longer living in a toxic environment and she didn’t give any indication she would be seeking to reenter such an environment. Moreover she was seeking counseling and healing for herself and her daughters. There’s really no comparison to her situation and Naomi’s. Why do you continually try to make apples and oranges comparisons? Running out of excuses for child abuse?

  150. Something I wonder about is basic IQ in the FLDS. I get the impression that the rank and file children are very likely to be undernourished while growing — which absolutely effects brain development. I wonder what an IQ study would show if FLDS results were compared with a small town of comparable population size.

  151. Kasoe,
    I am glad to hear of your success, but speaking from a statistical standpoint, your case is not the norm in terms of outcomes.

  152. Rebeckah,
    What I noted from my readings in Carolyn’s book regarding the description of their meals was that there was less protein than required and more carbohydrate (potatoes, bread) in their diet. This may be due to economic constraints in that particular family due to the large number of children.

  153. Running out of excuses for child abuse?
    ===========================================
    I dunno. I call removing a child from their home for no reason as a form of child abuse. You are free to disagree. You do bring up an interesting question. If Jaycee refused counseling for herself and her children should the state remove her children from her custody?

  154. I don’t know about intelligence, Rebeckah, but they are certainly selecting for obedience, even among the men. Anyone with gumption gets tossed out. And I think that personality traits like that are both nature and nuture.

  155. I wonder if some of the apostates here could comment on their daily meals when they were members of the FLDS. I am interested in whether or not the low protein – high carbohydrate diet is common in this group.

  156. Rebeckah,
    There is no published study on IQs in the FLDS group.
    There are published studies from Israel on the children of Muslim polygamists, which indicate that they have normal intelligence but lower levels of academic achievement than children of monogamous families do.

  157. alin, jaycee was kidnapped and held against her will. that in no way compares with what the flds are all about. like betty said, you continue to try to compare stuff that just can’t be can’t be compared.

  158. Leroy Emack’s body was recovered by the people that operate the Rainbow Dam on the Missouri River in Great Falla, Montana.

  159. “If Jaycee refused counseling for herself and her children should the state remove her children from her custody?”

    If that was all — no I seriously doubt it. However, if Jaycee were trying to get back together with her abuser, find a new abuser, looking for someone to marry her young daughters or something like that — I sincerely hope they would be placed in a safer environment.

  160. CW, thanks for that link. What I’m specifically wondering is pretty complex.

    1) Is basic nutrition consisitently lacking in FLDS diets? (In “Taken From That Land” it was clear that nutrition for the many children has been a concern since the early 1900s.)
    2) If it is, does it affect the baseline intelligence of the FLDS.

    Of course my curiousity will likely remain unsatisfied since it would require a great deal of research and cooperation by the FLDS to actually learn the facts.

    The link raises another question. Are children in Muslim polygyny provided with better nutrition than FLDS children? (I’m guessing they aren’t but I don’t have any facts.)

  161. Al

    “I dunno. I call removing a child from their home for no reason as a form of child abuse. ”

    See, Al, the convictions? The children were removed for a reason. Its really sad they were sent back into that environment of child molesters.

  162. I call removing a child from their home for no reason as a form of child abuse.
    ———
    Name one FLDS child that was removed from their home “for no reason” in the last five years. Just one. Come on, let’s hear it.

  163. CW, my apologies if I misunderstood the quote.

  164. One of Michael Emack’s sons has died tragically: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/49916379-76/emack-body-canoe-falls.html.csp

  165. And I see the government is still doing business with the FLDS owned companies: “working a construction job at Malmstrom Air Force Base.”

  166. The Eldorado Success Newspaper posted a youtube video on the newspaper’s website featuring a 4Th of July parade: http://www.myeldorado.net

    Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDsS4MhlAXI&feature=player_embedded

    The reason for posting this is that it shows the people in Eldorado, TX are not going to stop living their lives as they see fit despite the presence of the FLDS. Of course the FLDS didn’t participate in the 4th of July parade. If the FLDS were truly interested in good relations with their neighbors in Eldorado, they could have as least showed up or participated in parade.

  167. i doubt very seriously the flds celebrate july 4th.

  168. Seems to me the pictures of kids I see from the FLDS sure look healthy. I think you folks are overestimating the nutritional value of the average American diet. I don’t want to sound like Alin, or anything, but a lot of kids I know live on boxes of mac and cheese, taco bell, hot pockets and corn syrup sodas. My parents were fairly poor when I was young, kept a garden and all. My mother was a genius at making you think you were eating meat and there really wasn’t enough. But we had hot bread and two vegetables. We had eggs and cheese and peanut butter. We ate venison sometimes and fish was actually cheap and local back then in the dark ages. Honest, there are worse things in life than not eating meat.

  169. The question is not meat consumption.
    The question is about adequate protein consumption – and there are other sources of protein other than meat.
    The body has needs for protein that aren’t met by ingesting large quantities of carbohydrates.

  170. and here is Duane, playing the role of Nocturnal Anon…
    Duane, your “knowledge” regarding diet, nutrient requirements, developmental disabilities, cancer, etc, is just about as “reliable” as your knowledge of “statistics” which you made up for the Bountiful School.
    You say that all FLDS members are thin?
    Have you taken a look at Willie lately ?

  171. anon@10:48

    It seems to be the FLDS members at the YFZ ranch who are the thin members. If you took a trip to Short Creek, you would see extremely overweight members – both male and female.

    Many women’s figures are almost “square” and bloated. Maybe it is because they have so many children so quickly and over such a long time that they never “get their figure back” between babies.

    Many of the men have huge “beer gut” stomachs. Look at some of the photos from Warren’s Utah trial and you’ll see what I mean about the men’s bellies. Maybe they are eating too many carbs.

    I had never seen numerous svelte FLDS until I saw the photos of the YFZ members.

    I think Warren has a obsession with weight and requires his “chosen” FLDS followers living in Zion (at the YFZ) to be very lean. Or maybe he just had them working so hard without proper nutrition, rest and sleep that they are so lean. Or both.

    Regardless, the average dress size in the Creek looks like a 3X while it looks like the average dress size at the YFZ is an 8.

  172. anon@10:48, will you please cite your source “that too much fresh food can cause cancer and increase the frequency of developmental disabilites among children.”

    I have never heard this before and would like to learn more about this tendency.

  173. Anon @ 11:35 pm :

    It is ridiculous.
    Not true.
    Absurd.
    That’s Duane once again.

  174. FLDS Texas,
    I would suggest removing Duane’s posts from last night.

  175. Name one FLDS child that was removed from their home “for no reason” in the last five years. Just one. Come on, let’s hear it.
    =====================================================
    How about I name 439? I rejoiced when I when I learned that the state must comply with the law.

    There is no greater tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of the law and in the name of justice. (Baron de Montesquieu)

  176. The fact that the men that many of these children lived with have convicted of improper relations with minor children proves that there was reason to remove the children. Unfortunately the childtrn were returned to live with those law breaking men.

  177. Actually you bring up a good point ale wife. Note you said many of these children, not all.

  178. Yes, please remove ole liar dog duane’s ridiculous post. It is too bad that he cannot be permanently banned from posting her or on the TBM site.

  179. My point, CW, is that I think you are jumping to the conclusion that they have low protein intake. An isolated incident in the book does not prove eating trends throughout 10,000 people.

    Second point, the minimum requirement for protein is actually quite low. And from what I can see, many FLDS have their own cows, goats and/or chickens. They are also fond of their whole wheat bread. I suspect that you could get enough protein from eggs, milk and whole wheat bread to raise a child successfully. And we hear stories of them going to WalMart with trailers. They sell beans and peanut butter at WalMart.

    Next point, I agree that a steady diet of tomato sandwiches is not optimal, but if temporary, it’s not the end of the world.

    There was a study at an Antarctic station where they took healthy adult males and fed them EXCLUSIVELY fat, carbs or protein for three months, but fed them all the same calories. Their weight remained steady, they had not health problems, there was no particular difference between the groups. It was noted that the folks fed on fat only complained the most.

    Before refrigeration and shipping of food, humans ate what was seasonal, which is not at all consistent. Cows and goats stop producing milk in the cold winter months and chickens stop producing eggs. Meat stock animals don’t have babies, and you would have to deplete the size of your herd to get more meat during the winter, at a time when the herd is at risk for dying off in the cold and lack of fodder, anyway. So if human beings were so sensitive to imbalanced diet, that only a perfect combination of fats, protein and carbs would do, then we wouldn’t be here.

  180. Alinusara, note that it is the policy of CPS that if the threat to the child is serious enough, you remove the child while you do the investigation. You don’t leave the child there while you figure out if the child is in danger. A child endangerment investigation does not (and I think SHOULD NOT) follow the same rules as a criminal investigation. You seem to be unwilling to accept that reality, but it’s the way the system works. Change the system if you like, but I think that they behaved according to their own policies in an extraordinary situation.

  181. Yes, that post about fresh food causing cancer was really ridiculous and hateful.

  182. Here is a UN document about minimum, mean and recommended amounts of protein per day. A “Practical Safe Allowance” for children ranged from 1.19 to .8 grams per kilogram of body weight per day. So a 60 lb child would need about 25-30 grams of protein a day, with the younger children needing more relative to their size.

  183. Prayer and fasting seems to be the common “punishment” for wives under Warren. Combined with his obvious approval of thinner women, you can easily develop a cultural ideal that the perfect woman is thin, medium to short in height, has very long thick hair, speaks very softly, smiles even in inappropriate situations and looks down or away rather than directly at eye level. All of these are behaviors we’ve seen on videos of the women at YFZ.

  184. Alin, as far as I’m concerned when you just have one address, no apartment numbers or any other identifying information, you are one household.

  185. Diet is so complicated. There are so many competing theories out there about what’s the best diet for a particular individual. Then you get into which types of protein and the glycemic index of carbs and it’s enough to make your head spin.

    I remember going to a seminar where a doctor spoke about nutrition. This was right before I had to start taking medicine for diabetes. He spoke about how you needed to eat more carbs and less protein. So, I ate a bowl of pasta for lunch. I couldn’t stay awake after lunch when my blood sugar must have surged.

  186. it is complicated ron, each body is different and reacts in different ways to food.

  187. Betty – I don’t think you are reading my posts.
    My point is Betty that we don’t know what the diet is – which is why I asked the apostates to respond –
    There was one report in Carolyn’s book regarding diet and high carbohydrate, low protein intake, and I would like to know from the apostates if this was a common diet in the sect, or this was an isolated incidence in Carolyn’s family alone – see my previous posts where I posed this question.
    I am already quite aware of nutritional requirements for children already, and the nutritional requirements for children are quite different than for adults.

  188. Apparently wacky religious cults and young girls aren’t just an American phenomena.

    Australia Agape Cult

  189. Apparently it is a pseudo Christian cult – given the word Agape which in Greek means “Godly Love”

  190. Yes, it did seem to me that you and Rebeckah had decided already that the children were not getting adequate diet.

  191. Betty,

    I didn’t say that. You’re reading something into my statements that just is not there.

    I made a comment regarding Carolyn Jessop’s book, and asked a question about standard dietary practices.

    I am waiting for apostates to respond.

    Important Questions

    What are typical meals like ?
    What is the daily protein intake – which I can calculate from responses regarding the content of typical meals
    Does protein intake vary between families with more wives and children and those families with fewer wives and children ?
    Is protein intake related to wealth of the family ?

  192. Is protein intake related to wealth of the family?

    My wholly unscientific opinion on this is yes. Although I think poorer people do get protein although in what is probably less desirable ways.

    If you look at what could be called “peasant” food, the sources of protein tend to be things like feet, tendons, tripe and various other less desirable parts of animals. In addition you tend to see the bean plus rice combo that makes a complete protein.

    I guess the relevant question is whether a particular group gets enough protein.

  193. CW, I just don’t see why you would even question that based on the healthy appearance of the kids you have seen in news photos. I guess there is nothing wrong with asking questions, but the whole line of questioning seems a bit like prejudice to me. I agree that limited resources with very large families are going to have a negative effect on the children, but the FLDS kids in the news photos did not look to me like they were suffering from malnutrition.

    @Ron, The only reason “peasants” eat that way is that they sell the livestock for food and keep the part non one wants to buy. I don’t think that’s necessarily applicable to the FLDS.

    I’ve known people who live in the country and are technically poor who ate quite well, based on what they raised themselves, the venison they shot and the fish they caught. There’s also barter which is alive and well in rural areas, because many are “land rich and cash poor”.

  194. Will Michael Emacks Get to Attend His Son’s Funeral?

  195. Sad, but not too surprising. It’s part of the down side of being in prison (sarcasm).

  196. Also, I think some people eat pigs feet because they ate it as a kid and it’s a comfort food. I don’t think it makes up a significant portion of anybody’s diet in the US anymore. Poor is a relative concept.

  197. Betty

    Yeah, a lot of folks eat stuff because it is a comfort or soul food. (Or sometimes just because it’s damn tasty!)

    Classic examples – My wife still eats chicken feet (not me – too chewy.) Menudo is another example. (I’m actually somewhat of a Menudo connoisseur.)

  198. Betty,
    I am a scientist.
    I rely on factual information, not conjecture, photos, or opinions.
    Thanks for your unscientific opinion though.

  199. CW,

    Scientists are capable of being irrational and having blind spots just like the rest of us.

    But, if you find anything out, I’ll be happy to hear about it. Please enjoy your pursuits.

  200. Ron,

    I’ve been doing a lot of canning this summer, because I joined a CSA and have an excess of fruits and veggies. It’s reminding me of my mother (deceased) who was really good at pickles. I got a yearning for watermelon rind pickles – hers were so good, crunchy and jewel like. Come to find out, no one grows varieties that have rinds anymore. My only hope is to try to convince a seller to bring me one that is far from ripe. So, to make a long story short, I’m going to a lot of trouble to buy an unripe melon just so I can have the part that people used to throw away!

  201. With handcuffs off and an armed officer there I don’t believe Michael Emack would be a security threat at his son’s funeral. Not my call to make however.

  202. Alin, as far as I’m concerned when you just have one address, no apartment numbers or any other identifying information, you are one household.
    ======================================
    What you and I think is irrelevant since higher courts in Texas made their decision.

  203. Missing funerals, births and weddings is pretty common in every state for those serving time for felonies.

  204. Betty

    Now “taste nostalgia” is an interesting phenomena. As a kid I used to go into a store that had pickled eggs on the counter. The other day I had one. So, I boiled some eggs and threw them into an almost empty pickle jar. Haven’t finished them yet, but now I’ve got one of my kids hooked.

  205. Laughing@Ron and with Ron. It is a wonder that those lids didn’t blow right off those jars. You can take the kid out of the country but you can’t take the country out of the kid.

    Is Emack in prison?

  206. Funny, I did something similar recently. I made pickled beets in the spring and we opened the first jar and ate them. I hated to throw out the juice so I put hard boiled eggs in it and put it back in the fridge. They’re really good on salads.

  207. How about I name 439? I rejoiced when I when I learned that the state must comply with the law.
    ——
    Sure! And while you’re at it, name the parents of the children, too. You know, the same parents who “kept sweet” while their pedophile Prophet ordered systemized sexual abuse of young girls. Those parents.

    Underage marriages were taking place for years at YFZ and children were being born to the underage “wives.”

    The so-called adults at YFZ (all 150 of them) know exactly where babies come from and it ain’t from cabbage patches grown on shipped-in topsoil.

    I suspect you rejoiced when the children were sent back because it pained you to think of all those young girls growing up without being married to their grandpa at age 14.

  208. As for nutrition in the FLDS, I recall in Escape where Carolyn Jessop talks about the whole family (except Merril and Barbara) living off tomato sandwiches because they didn’t have money for anything else. Irresponsible parents and large families lead to poverty and malnutrition, it’s as simple as that. At least the government provides food stamps.

    And I couldn’t tell from pictures whether or not kids taken in the YFZ rescue were healthy or not. Kids will often have chubby cheeks and a healthy glow just as a result of being so young. Since they’re always covered in fabric head to toe, you can’t see if they have little stick arms and legs.

  209. According to doctors who examined them they seemed in pretty good health.

  210. “Seems to me the pictures of kids I see from the FLDS sure look healthy. I think you folks are overestimating the nutritional value of the average American diet.”

    Betty, I wasn’t assuming FLDS children were malnourished or anything, I was simply wondering. I know that before our modern food system was in place that nutrition could be seriously impacted and that it affected cognitive development. But given CWs research indicating that children in Muslim polygyny don’t suffer intellectually then I have to assume that FLDS children aren’t going to suffer. It was a chain of thought, though, not an attack against the FLDS or something I had any preconceived notions about.

  211. “How about I name 439? I rejoiced when I when I learned that the state must comply with the law.”

    Those children were not removed for “no” reason they were removed for unproven reasons. The Court actually felt that further investigation needed to be done BUT that there was not sufficient proof of imminent danger. It was a very reasonable, and appropriate, ruling for those children HOWEVER it did not mean that there was “no” reason for the removal of the children. There clearly WAS child abuse going on, the children removed were clearly being raised in a community that tolerated and perpetrated this abuse and the children clearly need protection. Unfortunately CPS then dropped the ball and caved on everything — which is a further form of abuse in my book.

  212. By the way, Al, the Court decision was only for a dozen or so children and that means it speaks not at all about the other 400 or so children. What you are engaging in is fanciful thinking — reading something into a legal document that simply isn’t there.

  213. Oops, I’m the two Anonymouses there responding to Al’s drivel. I’m using a different computer because my computer keeps crashing and forgot I needed to log in. Sorry.

  214. “Yes, it did seem to me that you and Rebeckah had decided already that the children were not getting adequate diet.”

    Really Betty, I hadn’t. I knew I didn’t have enough data to come to a conclusion (and I know that I’m not ever likely to have the kind of data needed for that kind of conclusion). I was just curious. I figured it was a possibility that might explain why so few FLDS are willing to think for themselves but I never considered it more than a possibility. Just idle curiousity on my part. I don’t think Catwhisperer thought it was much of a possibility either, given the link she provided stating that children in Muslim polygyny don’t show decreased intelligence.

  215. Unfortunately CPS then dropped the ball and caved on everything — which is a further form of abuse in my book.
    ====================================================
    It became a huge political fiasco. If they did the investigation the correct way, investigate first remove second, rather then the reverse they still would have gotten the information without lawmakers breathing down their necks. Everyone answers to someone. CPS and Law Enforcement answers to lawmakers and lawmakers answer to the taxpayers.

  216. Alinusara,

    It’s easy to sit on a bench, or at your computer chair, and guess what to you would do if you had directly encountered the systemic sexual abuse of young girls. If CPS walked into a large, agnostic, single family and found that the father was marrying off his 12 year old daughters to his own brother, who already had a wife, do you really think they would not immediately remove all the children?

    It was only a politcal fiasco because of what people SAW on TV, not because of what really happened! I believe that the judge ruled in error and he may now regret his ruling. If you actually went to children’s court and saw the tragedies that parade before a judge, you might have a little bit more understanding and sympathy for the public servants who were trying to avert a disaster for the next child victim.

    CPS were, before the raid, exempt from prosecution. You can’t touch them. Get over it.

  217. You are also missing details of the judge’s rulling in returning the children. He specifically stated that there was enough proof to continue an investigation. He did not, in any way, hinder or reproach law enforcement in his ruling. The raid itself was not ruled against, only the removal of all of the children, which was the act of CPS, not law enforcement.

  218. According to doctors who examined them they seemed in pretty good health.
    ———
    Can you prove that statement?

    Also, you stated that all 439 children removed during the YFZ rescue were removed “for no reason.” So either you’re saying that you think American childbrides should be left with their “husbands”. Care to elaborate?

  219. best i can tell, emack is in abilene waiting for the bus to huntsville, as is lehi. leroy and abram are still in eldorado.

  220. about human diets, ask an anthropologist/archaeologist. Rice and beans really does make a complete protein btw. I’d druther eat steak or fish or animal protein, m’self.

  221. “It became a huge political fiasco. If they did the investigation the correct way, investigate first remove second, rather then the reverse they still would have gotten the information without lawmakers breathing down their necks. Everyone answers to someone. CPS and Law Enforcement answers to lawmakers and lawmakers answer to the taxpayers.”

    Al, the only children they should have removed should have been the teen girls and any children with physical signs of abuse (not that I’m saying there were any — I don’t know about that). I think that CPS went WAAAAY overboard — first by removing all of the children and then by returning all of the children. I thought it was wrong to remove nursing babies and toddlers from their mothers. I didn’t see any imminent danger to most of the children, which is why I agreed with the Supreme Court’s decision. However they messed up, the compounded matters by then turning ALL of the children back over to their parents. Some of those girls WERE in danger and should have been protected — along with their babies.

  222. Nope the children need first to be emplaced in a safe environment and out at the breeding ranch that required removal. It was kind and smart both to bring mothers along for those youngest, even with all their lies and outright carp.

    The main mistake was abandoning all the children just prior the return results of DNA.

    Common sense.

  223. Apologies up front for such a long post. CW, you asked for it. 😉
    ———-

    I certainly cannot speak for all FLDS; I can only say what our family typically ate during my growing up years (a-a-a-ages ago!) when we were poorest. That said, I remember never going hungry. And remember: I grew up in SLC, not at the Crick.
    ———

    We raised our own chickens which provided all the eggs we needed. Before winter, we’d slaughter, clean and freeze many of them then buy new chicks in the spring.

    We had several cows, made our own butter and cottage cheese, and had plenty of raw milk and buttermilk to drink. The vet would come and artificially inseminate the cows. If a bull was born we slaughtered it as a yearling for meat. We always had chicken and beef in the freezer but consumed it at the rate of maybe 2 or 3 times a week, and a great deal of it was ground. (goes farther among lots of mouths to feed)

    We had a big garden with a huge variety of veggies and strawberries and had a few fruit trees. Neighborhood orchards allowed us to have all the dropped fruit we wanted (made into jams & jellies) and charged very little for all the bushels of fruit we picked ourselves. In the winter months when the garden was dormant, we purchased fresh veggies.

    We bottled fruit by the ton every fall — tomatoes, peaches, pears, apricots, cherries or raspberries. We always saved, sun-dried, then cracked the apricot pits for the kernels inside which I loved to pan-toast in salt and butter.

    Cheeses, peanut butter and tuna fish were staples, always on hand.

    We didn’t live where we could easily go fishing so fish was rare unless given to us from others in the group.

    We purchased wheat, pinto beans, rice, potatoes, and onions by the 100-pound sacks. We ground our own flour, made tons of whole-wheat bread and all other baked goods.

    Our main recipe book was one published by mainstream LDS called “Wheat for Man.” We always had bread and if the larder was getting sparse, we typically had bread and milk to fall back on — sometimes with chopped onions and sometimes with cinnamon and honey or raw sugar added. That might be followed with a dish of home-bottled fruit.

    Raw sugar and honey were our primary sweeteners; white sugar was needed/used only for special recipes and sometimes in bottling. (I know it’s typically called “canning” but since we “canned” in bottles, I tend to call it just that.) lol

    Breakfasts were usually …
    * some kind of hot cereal — cooked old-fashioned rolled oats, whole wheat steamed overnight, cracked wheat and occasionally “Cream of Wheat” – with warmed milk, raw suger or honey and cinnamon, or
    * whole wheat pancakes or waffles with homemade jams or a maple syrup we made from a concentrate product called Mapeline, or
    * scrambled eggs and toast, or
    * dry cereal (never a sugared variety) which was a rare treat – especially came into play when one of the mothers was ill or having a baby.

    Lunches were usually soups, salads or sandwiches, with homemade whole-wheat cookies and bottled fruit for dessert.

    We ate a lot of beans, potatoes, rice and pasta incorporated into casseroles and soups for dinner often with chicken or hamburger and/or cheese included. I especially remember the chili made with pinto beans and ground beef – with LOTS of chili powder. To this day, I love hot, spicy foods. Potatoes, onions, beets, and carrots were stored in a root cellar for use during the winter. We also indulged in hot dogs or hamburgers and potato chips every once in a while.

    Sunday dinners were when we’d enjoy a beef roast, or a turkey, or other cuts of meat.
    ———

    It seems to me that as a whole, YFZ maintains a pretty similar way of eating to what I’ve described here. At the Crick, however, I tend to believe each family group manages their eating habits on a more individual basis. How they manage the storehouse — who gets what and when — has always been a mystery to me.

  224. Hey Ron… I thought I was the only one who peeled hard-boiled eggs and dropped them into the almost empty pickle jar. The longer I can resist, leaving them in there to be well-pickled, the better they are! Love those pickled eggs!

  225. E. Texas you made me hungry.
    I am going to make a BLT.

    Friend

  226. Alin says it was a huge political fiasco. Yeah, the politicians involved sure paid heavily for it, NOT!!. Sheriff Doram relected by a huge margin. Judge Walthers retaimed by a large margin. No political fall out for Governor Perry. Ignorant and uninformed alin is engaging in some wishful thinking.

  227. Nope the children need first to be emplaced in a safe environment and out at the breeding ranch that required removal.
    ——————————————————-
    Nope. Texas higher courts ruled differently. Investigate then remove. Actually I’m no sure which specific child was still in danger especially with restraining orders and parents complying with all CPS restrictions.

    (Admin Edit – dont use HTML if you dont know how to close it)

  228. Sheriff Doram relected by a huge margin. Judge Walthers ..

    You mean Sheriff Doran and Judge Wathers I believe.

  229. Gee, their own eggs, milk products, meat from their own livestock, whole wheat breads, all supplemented with cheap purchased foods like beans, rice and peanut butter. Who’d have thunk it?

  230. E. Texas

    Throwing those eggs in the pickle jar is a pretty new thing for me. Like I said I’d eat them all the time as a kid and recently had one at some other store and the taste nostalgia made me throw some in the pickle jar so I could have them at home.

    Now I’ve got my middle son hooked. He loves em.

  231. Hmmm, is everything in italics now?

  232. Seems to be.

  233. Ron, I’ve never tasted store-bought. I have to hide mine (as best I can) in the fridge so others won’t know they’re there. My whole family loves ’em.

    Very weird with the italics, eh?

  234. Thanks East! Glad to hear it.

  235. Testing to see if this gets rid of it. Maybe the moderator can fix this.

  236. Try again in italics
    Now, this should not be italics.
    If this fails, I won’t try any further.

  237. Nope alin it was a close call on the vote are you pretending to have forgotten, along with your poor spellings on Walther and Doran?

  238. Somehow I think the italics have to be blamed on Alin. It started with his post @ 6:35. 😉

  239. E Texas except that we kept goats for milk couldn’t afford to feed cows and seldom if ever had $ to buy stuff from a store, though we did get sugar, rice, sometimes dry beans, and it was back when coffee was what, 39 to 59 cents a pound can, not 11.5 ounce cans. We canned in jars, dried meat and fruit, ground hard red winter wheat and sifted for bread and cereal, all the stuff like you said. We ate what I could grow and kill or gather. My children never went hungry. Modern folks don’t seem to know how to eat without cash or a lone star card and a grocery store.

  240. O and yeah we sometimes had too much milk so made cheese, too much eggs so boiled and pickled ’em.

  241. Yep, Granny, those were the days. Actually, my father traded his cows for goats for probably the same reasons after I was married off. A good thing, cuz I really didn’t like goat milk. Personally, I never drink milk any more… it’s only good for babies and in a few recipes.

  242. I love goat cheese, but I agree with you about the milk.

  243. Hmmm, it’s interesting – the comments on this page are italics but on the Arizona AG page they’re not

  244. Trying to get rid of italics

    (Admin edit – Done, Alin used them )

  245. (Admin Edit – dont use HTML if you dont know how to close it)

    I’m such a newb!

  246. Merrill Jessop
    Any news? He can’t really pay child support and save face with the FLDS, can he? Yet, he’ll go to jail if he does. So, he’s kinda in a fix, isn’t he?

    Also, does anyone know how many of the YFZ children were girls?
    Thanks

  247. Thanks for the information, E Texas! Well, I can’t see a diet like that causing any kinds of nutritional deficits. If the FLDS are eating like that (and it sounds like they might be) then clearly my idle theory has been disproven. 🙂

    Betty, are you angry about my question? I ask lots of questions — it’s how I figure things out. I think it was a valid area to consider but, like I said earlier, it wasn’t something I really had a conclusion for. Just curious. Frankly, I think the diet described by E Texas is pretty ideal for folks. It has all the best foods in pretty good proportions and PLENTY of protien and calcium for growing bodies and brains.

  248. leroy jessop’s motion for new trial and indigency motion were both denied by judge walther according to the eldorado success

  249. No, I’m not really angry, Rebeckah. There’s nothing wrong with asking a question. However, I think fixating on the diet of the FLDS based on an extreme story in one family is a bit odd, and possibly prejudiced. My take on Carolyn’s story is that Merrill’s family was not completely typical of the FLDS as a whole, partly because of an elite status.

    I’m annoyed that my life time of experience was dismissed as “anecdotal” and unscientific. Especially considering my opinion, was completely supported by what E Texas said. But it takes a lot more than that to get me really angry.

  250. Thanks, Betty. This was one of those times when I wasn’t sure about what was going on. I always appreciate it when someone responds to my questions about social interpretation. 🙂

    Yeah, it was just a curiosity on my part. I have those kinds of “hmmm, I wonder if this is significant…” thoughts all the time about various things. (For instance, I wonder if there are lower instances of autism among FLDS children because of lifestyle and/or vaccine choices too.)

  251. Here’s an interesting article that appeared in a Utah magazine on corruption in “short creek” where funds were for water system were funneled to FLDS church, guess that answers the question of where they got the millions for YFZ construction.

    http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-10892-flds-church-$32-million-allegation.html

  252. “Among the mountain of material filed by B.C., there is also an affidavit and two binders of exhibits provided by Eric Nichols, the deputy attorney general in Texas and the lead prosecutor in the 23 criminal cases that arose out of the raid on the FLDS’s Yearning for Zion Ranch. So far, six men — all polygamists — have been convicted of offenses related to having sexual relations with minors.”

    Read more here:

    Polygamy opponents file today in BC court
    By Daphne Bramham
    http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thinktank/archive/2010/07/16/polygamy-opponents-file-today-in-bc-court.aspx

  253. Preliminary findings in the Sisters of Islam study on polygamy in Malaysia are now being released :

    http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/two-in-five-of-first-wives-in-polygamous-marriages-forced-to-find-extra-income/

  254. I liked the comments on that last one, catwhisperer. It seems that Islamic people are having the same sorts of dialogs we are having here.

  255. i have a question, if in the flds the greatest thing a woman can do is to have lots of kids, why did they marry off so many really young girls to the old geezer rulon? the chance of him producing any kids with his young brides was nil.

    also, are they just going to leave all that breeding potential sitting around while the husbands are martyrs in jail? seems like a waste to me. hopefully some of them will wake up and smell the coffee and leave.

  256. Could their mothers have protected them by ‘marrying’ them to a non-reproductive geezer? About like sending them to a nunnery until the old boy craps out. I mean passes on. Maybe some of them got to extend their educations in that way.

  257. Nah, It’s about the prestige of the prophet. Like David and Solomon and Tony Alamo and Hugh Hefner and….

  258. Nah, It’s about the prestige of the prophet.

    Yeah, nothing like male ego run amok.

  259. i can see the prestige of the prophet being propped up by marrying a bunch of sexy young things, but don’t the women have an obligation to reproduce to get themselves into heaven or can they merely ride the coat tails of the old geezer?

    as for getting an education, i certainly hope so. i’d love to see teresa jeffs get a college education. she’s so spunky that its a waste not to let her.

  260. It would be nice if there was something for the older kids living in the Creek to do besides sneak off to keg parties (or get hitched to old geezers). They need a Boys/Girls Club or something like that. Participating in sports can tend to keep teenagers out of trouble.

    Another FLDS kid arrested –
    HOLM, CARL OTTO-NATHANIEL
    Birth Date: 01/29/90
    Address : 220 EAST JESSOP AVENUE, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    22:15:00 07/14/10 Edwards, Trev-z WCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    32A-12-209 ALCOHOL- MINOR CONSUM BM WCJ6 500.00 [No Payments Made]

  261. that would be nice anon, but i doubt the powers that be in the flds would allow the kids to go to a boys/girls club.

  262. i have a question, if in the flds the greatest thing a woman can do is to have lots of kids, why did they marry off so many really young girls to the old geezer rulon? the chance of him producing any kids with his young brides was nil.

    ****

    I speculated some time ago that this was a case of hoarding and saving up till later – some of the accounts were that Warren picked em out and married em to his dad… so my guess is that it was a kind of lay away plan

  263. “lay away plan”

    Pun intended?

  264. From Today’s Vancouver Sun, by Daphne Branham :

    Polygamy has troubling implications for any society

    VANCOUVER — Increased crime, prostitution and anti-social behaviour. Greater inequality between men and women. Less parental investment in children. And, a general driving down of the age of marriage for all women.

    These are some of the harms of polygamy (or more correctly, polygyny, since it is almost always men marrying more than once) that are outlined in a 45-page research paper by noted Canadian scholar Joseph Henrich, filed Friday in B.C. Supreme Court.

    Henrich is uniquely qualified to look at polygamy’s harm. He’s a member of the departments of economics, psychology and anthropology at the University of British Columbia and holds the Canada Research Chair in Culture, Cognition and Coevolution.

    But he’d never really thought about it until this year when Craig Jones approached him. Jones is the lead lawyer in the B.C. government’s constitutional reference case, which will be heard in November by Supreme Court Chief Justice Robert Bauman.

    Now, Henrich’s conclusions form part of the intellectual and evidentiary underpinning for the province’s argument that even if outlawing polygamy breaches the constitutional guarantees of religious freedom and freedom of expression, it’s justified.

    In addition to Henrich’s paper, the government has filed or will be filing affidavits from other specialists in the history of Western polygamy, Islamic law, psychology and medicine.

    Fifteen former fundamentalist Mormons have provided video testimony about their experiences growing up in polygamous communities in Canada and the United States.

    Among them is Truman Oler. He is the 28-year-old brother of James Oler, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints bishop in Bountiful, B.C., and the nephew of Winston Blackmore, the former bishop who now heads a breakaway sect.

    But for James Oler and Blackmore, there would be no court case. Both men were charged with polygamy in 2009. But after those charges were stayed, Attorney-General Mike de Jong asked the B.C. Supreme Court to rule on the law’s constitutionality.

    To illustrate the harm, Henrich provides the court with an example of polygyny’s cruel arithmetic.

    In a hypothetical society of 20 men and 20 women, 12 men with the highest status marry 12 women. (It’s always only the highest-ranking men in polygynous societies that get multiple wives.)

    Then, the top five take a second wife and the top two men take a third. Finally, the top guy takes a fourth. The result is that 58 per cent of the marriages are monogamous.

    But — and this is the big deal — it means 40 per cent of the men remain unmarried. Yes, 40 per cent. And Henrich’s example is conservative.

    Blackmore has more than 20 wives. FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs, presently in jail in Utah, has more than 80.

    And the studies Henrich cites — from historical, frontier-American research to contemporary work done in countries where polygamy is legal — indicate that groups of unmarried men create havoc.

    “For males, getting married (monogamously) is a prophylactic against engaging in crime, social disruption and other socially undesirable activities,” he writes. In India and China, where male-biased sex selection has resulted in more men than women, researchers found “bachelor bands that compete ferociously and engage in aggressive, violent and anti-social activities.”

    China’s one-child policy resulted in the number of “surplus” men nearly doubling . . . along with the crime rates. In a recent study, researchers there concluded that for every 0.01 increase in sex ratio, property and violent crimes rise by three per cent. In India, the province of Kerala’s murder rate is half that of Uttar Pradesh.

    The reason? Kerala’s male-to-female ratio is 97:100; Uttar Pradesh’s is 112:100.

    Another social harm that Henrich says is consistent regardless of whether researchers use data from 19th-century Mormon communities or contemporary African societies is that children from polygynous families have considerably lower survival rates. It seems polygynous men, rather than investing in their offspring, use their money to add wives.

    “Monogamy seems to direct male motivations in ways that create lower crime rates, greater wealth (GDP) per capita and better outcomes for children,” Henrich concludes.

    But what’s more surprising than his conclusions is his speculation that monogamy is at the root of democracy and equality. He argues that as the idea of monogamy spread through Europe during the 15th century, king and peasant alike had the same rules and the idea of equality gained a foothold — at least among men.

    With reduced competition for women, men began loosening their tight control over wives and daughters. And with fewer unmarried men, the pool of soldiers that had previously been harnessed by warring rulers was reduced.

    Even though this compelling argument goes far beyond the scope of the trial, it may make it even harder for polygamy’s advocates to convince the judge that its practice is benign.

  265. HHG

    Honestly, you’re thinking much too logically and rationally. I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no making “sense” of the FLDS.

  266. I believe most if not all those young women asked to be placed with Rulon because of the predicted end-of-days destructions. (Remember how so many men went out and maxed out their credit with the idea they would never have to pay it back because the end was near?)

    These young women wanted and asked to be sealed to the prophet to guarantee their place with a man most likely to become a god in his own right … you could call it a hedge.

    To a lesser degree, this same phenomenon happened to LeRoy Johnson in his later years, as well.

    It’s a misconception on the part of outsiders that childbearing for FLDS women is a must in this life. There will be LOTS more of that in the next life to populate new earths.

    I happen to have some other (personal? opinionated?) speculations about this desire/behavior on the part of these young girls, but the one just stated was/is the primary one.

    One should never forget that indoctrination and mind control is very extreme.

  267. That’s awesome stuff, CW. I really hope the judges are paying attention. 🙂

  268. CW

    Excellent review. Betcha they dont go over these details at their meetings though!

    Ron

    I would agree they not only “dont do any math” as pointed out in CW’s post, and dont think ahead to put young girls with geezers as some sicko lay away plan.

    I think they just do what pops into their head like an OCD impulse.

    Add a little “revelation” to add excitement and fear and they can do to those people whatever the hell they want.

    Say, isnt Warren taking a little road trip soon?

  269. You’re probably right ETexas. I hadn’t thought about it in terms of the predicted “end of the world”.

    I’d love to hear your other speculations if you are willing to share.

    I wonder why ole Warren never got around to impregnating the ones he married from his father. His brothers sure did. Abram is just one example of having a child with his “stepmother”.

  270. I wish I knew when Warren’s road trip was Stamp. Do you have a clue?

  271. From what I have read, he will be going to Texas at the end of the month.

    Not to his normal Gardners bed this time though!

  272. I’m hoping he comes too, but haven’t heard a word about the extradition hearing. I thought surely Brooke or Ben or one of the reporters up there would cover it. I’m not even sure where it will be, in SLC or Washington County.

  273. The extradition will be upstate likely, as he is in Draper prison and subject currtently to their authority.

    I imagine this will heat up about the end of the month, as that is the crux time. He has a month to prove it wasnt him, and failing that, he goes to the next prison in line.

    Maybe he can right a memoir on the cooking at all the different prisons and jails, he has been to at least four now.

    Las Vegas Metro, Nevada

    Purgatory County jail, Utah

    Draper State Prison, Utah

    Kingman County jail, Arizona

    Am I missing some?

    Assorted hospitals where he got fed up the nose with a rubber hose.

    Two thumbs up for those places!

  274. What I’ve heard about Warren and extradition is that he got served with the Governor’s warrant from Texas and has a limited number of days to contest it. Seems to me that he only has around like maybe 20 days left.

  275. Warren’s extradition expedition seems pretty light summer entertainment.

  276. Actually Warren’s extradition is probably a pretty good side show into the attorney-client dynamic at work. His attorneys know it’s a loser and whether he really contests it or not shows who is really calling the shots.

    Heck, if nothing else it could be marginally interesting.

  277. Warren was/is suppose to have a hearing inside of the 30 day mark. 30 days would be on the 24 of this month.
    Once Texas gets done with him in the courtroom via camera or what ever…. The FEDS will be next in line. Woooo hoooo

    Why did old men marry young girls? Even if they were to old to perform it doesn’t mean that they didn’t try. Where do old perverts come from? Young perverts growing old.
    Why did moms and dad give away their children to old perverts? For a spot on the hill. jmo Some people might have traded for monies or things but even those that thought they would gain higher ground in their heavens used their kids for a bartering tool. again jmo

  278. I’d love to hear your other speculations if you are willing to share.
    .

    Along with wanting the most guaranteed path to becoming a goddess in the hereafter… and you have to get used to the fact that girls can ask to be placed with a specific man. Not that they always get what they want. But just imagine the old prophet’s choices every time that happens.
    .

    As for these young girls…

    * They’re not stupid… they see how tough it is to “live the principle” but they can’t not believe their indoctrination.

    * They want (very badly) to get away from their parental family – think about what their options are. I’m pretty sure you guessed it.

    * They know and like other young women in the prophet’s family – “it would be so neat to be sister-wife with my best friend” or even “my own sister.”

    * She’s a spoiled brat who thinks she’s the cutest, sweetest thing god ever created and she can and will capture the prophet’s heart. (Yes, some do have well-honed superiority attitudes!)

    * “He’s an old man, isn’t having any more children, I won’t have to put up with a lot of needy, snotty little kids or suffer through earthly childbirth or risk having a deformed/unhealthy child.”

    * “I don’t want to get fat, ugly, and put on the shelf after umpteen pregnancies.”

    * “I might have more choices in what happens to me after he dies; I’ll still be young and desirable; at least I know I’ll be respected as the wife of a prophet.”

    .

    Those are off the top of my head, and ones I know as factual from personal knowledge.

    .

    Walton, I’m sure some of what you say is true, but it most definitely doesn’t cover all of it.

  279. There is a new posting at the TruthWillPrevail site. They are trying to prove that Gary Engles lied concerning his report that initiated the case against Warren Jeffs in Arizona.

    Setting aside for the moment the “blame the victim” mentality of the post, which focuses on Elissa’s “adultery”, I’m focusing on other points made in the article. I’ll also ignore the fact that no where does the article say that Warren did not force Elissa into a “marriage” with Allen when she was only 14 and was/is in any way actually innocent of the crimes committed. They do refer to Warren Jeffs as an “innocent” man, however, they do not address whether or not he instructed Elissa to submit to Allen as her priesthood head.

    Their “proof” is that, in the report, Engles refers to Elissa as Lamont’s new wife when they were not married until more than a year later. This is not proof to me that Engels is lying. Engels could have been writing down what Lamont told him and believing it to be true. And since FLDS people refer to themselves as married without bothering to inform the courthouse, Lamont may have told him that.

    Another point of “proof” is that Lamont would not have talked to an Arizona Law Enforcement agent at that time for fear of being arrested for statutory rape, because their sexual activity started when Elissa was 17. They ignore the fact that Lamont might have refered to Elissa as his wife in order to not bring up the question of statutory rape. But in any event, the idea is false for several reasons. I have done some research with her book to place the dates. Elissa turned 18 on July 7, 2004. The meeting with Engels took place in January of 2005, so at that time, Elissa was of the age of consent in any state in the nation. Also, for Arizona to have jurisdiction, the sexual contact would have to have taken place there. Although that’s possible and her book is vague on that point, Elissa consistently refers to living in Hildale and she and Lamont first lived together in Hurricane, both of which are in Utah. In Utah, their sexual contact would have been legal any time after she turned 16. Unless Lamont confessed to a specific act happening in Arizona with Elissa when she was still under 18, he had nothing to be concerned about. In any event, speculation about Lamont’s state of mind has nothing to do with whether or not Gary Engels is telling the truth.

    Another piece of “proof” given is that Lamont and Elissa could not have been man and wife, since the marriage to Allen was not “annulled” as they call it, until after that first meeting with Gary. What is absurd about that is that they are saying that an illegal FLDS “marriage” would have kept Elissa from entering into a legal, real world marriage because the prophet had not yet dissolved it!

    Another piece of “proof” they list is that Elissa’s book identifies the first contact with Lamont and LE as being after the April 23, 2005 date which she believed was the end of her statute of limitations on prosecuting Allen and Warren. This is true, the book does place it at that time. However, they also state that Gary’s report says that Lamont did not want Elissa to be concerned about it until after she had her baby, so it is possible that both stories are true; Engels met with Lamont in January, but Elissa did not hear about it until after April.

    Also, all this is an effort to prove that Jeff’s is innocent because of a statute of limitations innocent. You would think that if that argument had merit his lawyers would have addressed that in court in 2007 and if it were grounds for appeal, it would have already been raised.

    “Truth”? Not particularly.

  280. Duane,
    You realize that this will be deleted shortly, correct ?

  281. it’s too early for your crap duane, you need to come back in the dead of the night so we’ll have something to laugh at first thing in the morning.

  282. betty, i totally agree with you that the truth isn’t prevailing over on that site. i’m not sure they’d know the truth if it jumped up and bit them in the butt, but warren isn’t innocent by any stretch of the imagination. if he was, he wouldn’t be fighting extradition to texas, he’d come willingly and show everyone how innocent he was.

  283. It is always interesting to review Bile’s use of statistics : “32 percent of American males, age 15 and over, have NEVER married.”

    That’s because he is including in the statistical sample an age demographic which is significantly younger than the average age at which most American men marry.
    If you restrict the sample size to men and women over age 40, we see that in 2006, only 16.7% of men aged 41-45 were never married, and only 10.6% of women in that age group have never married.

  284. Daphne Bramham does her research and she will carve a new one in Mad Bill’s arse. He is quite pathetic.

  285. I’m curious, is it actionable by those people to go after Mr. Medvecky for attributing “comments” to them that they clearly didn’t make? I’m so ready for someone to sue Medvecky and his entire support system for everything they have. He’s a mad dog.

  286. Perhaps Mudpucky misses prison meals.

  287. Admin: Please delete the garbage post by anonymous, posted at 11:08pm. Thank you. It is totally lacking in logic and is quite crude snd juvenile. Sounds like ole dog deci duane lying again.

  288. My timing was perfect. I didn’t see the garbage post at all.

  289. Medvecky could not recognize a scientific study if it were strapped to the grill of the tractor trailer that ran over him.

  290. Thank you admin. The crudeness of some sites is not allowed here for which I am grateful.

  291. Dang, I always miss seeing the train wrecks. 😦

  292. ya just gotta be on at night when the train wreck comes out to play.

  293. “The other so-called polygamous groups have surrendered to the government, made promises, invited the government among them to show they are not breaking the law of underage marriages. And the other polygamous groups, so-called, have written father and I letters demanding us to stop this. All of this is proof that they are the kingdom of the devil.” – Warren Jeffs, January 10, 2003

    http://phrecords.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/jan-9-2003.pdf

  294. “I then asked him, ‘What is all this talk about compromise?’ He explained to me that one of the higher officials in the Attorney-General’s office informed one of our lawyers that the Attorney-General wants out of this if he can help them save face through compromise; and what they really want is the leadership of this Priesthood to say or even imply that we will no longer perform underage marriages. Our own lawyers are working hard to convince Uncle Sam and Kelly Fischer and Dale Barlow to make a plea bargain and plea guilty to some lower charges, and the Church lawyers will give a message from us that we will nonofficially imply that we will do no more underage marriages. Then our lawyers said to Uncle Sam, ‘But if there is any more underage marriages they will be right back at you.’ So our own lawyers are pushing us to compromise. Uncle Sam has been properly informing them that I will stand firm and make no compromises with the government.” – Warren Jeffs, January 16, 2003

    http://phrecords.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/jan-9-2003.pdf

  295. “I can see an effort coming to arrest me and a judge ordering me, if I am put on bail, ordering me not to perform any marriages. It is so easy to get around it. I can just delegate somebody else to do it each time like father did.” – Warren Jeffs, January 16, 2003

  296. So it is clear from Ellie’s posts above that underage marriages are still occurring among the FLDS. Who is monitoring to make sure that this does not occur again ?

  297. I would think that Texas CPS would want to follow up on families that they have a file on and make sure children are not living in homes with new under aged marriages.

    And, ellie, I really appreciate these quotes because they answer quite clearly those who say “But Willie said there will be no more under aged marriages!”. It’s very clear that Warren Jeffs will not surrender his 100% control over who has sex with whom in the FLDS, not even to stay out of jail, not even AFTER he’s in jail.

  298. Monkey see monkey do. Warren was great with numbers and because of the power he gained thru money he was able to pull off some incredible things. But he actually wasn’t as creative as some might think. imo He used history as his blueprint and stepped it up a notch.
    These words could easily be the words of John Taylor and those that followed his “vision”. And the vision before his and ….
    The “keys” passed from one to another. And from what I’ve gathered – there aren’t any keys.
    One mans fairy tale told so many times over years that it becomes true. jmo

  299. Looks to me like the mistaken idea that if you hold to a dumb idea stubbornly enough, then you can convince yourself that it’s not dumb.

  300. It’s worked for a lot of years. Has anyone seen the movie the Villiage? Great movie.

  301. extradition hearing will be on july 27.

  302. Yes, I have seen that movie. I see your point.

  303. Thanks, anon.

  304. Yes, thank you anon.

  305. oh, that anon at 8:03 was me. I didn’t realize it didn’t have my name. Sorry.

  306. Ka-ching, ka-ching go the lawyers’ billing machines.

    So where is this Texas extradition hearing going to be held? Salt Lake City, Utah? St. George, Utah?

  307. West Jordan Courthouse

    ” Texas served a fugitive warrant on Jeffs who is in the State Prison at Point of the Mountain, but Jeffs opted to fight the warrant.

    ABC 4 News has learned Jeffs’ attorneys will argue that he cannot be extradited to Texas until all of his appeals are first exhausted in the Utah case.

    Attorneys familiar with extradition law say usually another state’s warrant can only be rejected for “mistaken identity” – proof that you are not the person named in the warrant.

    The extradition hearing for Jeffs is scheduled for July 27th at the West Jordan Courthouse.”

    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/Extradition-hearing-scheduled-for-Warren-Jeffs/NERimfzPN06QNz0urq7z5A.cspx

  308. He REALLY does not want to go to Texas. Makes me think he’s getting special treatment in Utah.

  309. No, I thought it over and it makes no sense. Even if the appeals on the accomplice to rape charge work, which I kind of doubt, they would not let him back on the street, they would turn around and send him to Texas. I was thinking maybe he was trying to find a way to get free and then bolt to Canada.

  310. Sounds like Pic has learned how to bleed the flds beast.

  311. Sounds like Pic has learned how to bleed the flds beast.

    I did a post on this. There’s actually a dilemma there in that this is a big loser. The more Pic gets associated with losers, the less his ability to draw business.

    Granted, I don’t think he’ll be crying going to the bank, but it’s something for him to think about. Pic may get some associate to argue it so that he’s not too closely associated with this turkey.

  312. Thanks Ron, I will check out your post on your blog.

  313. Pic’s representing the “victims” in the trespass case against Wisan and Barlow. They have a hearing in Kingman on the 27th. Pic can’t be in two places at the same time, so I’m betting he’s going to stay with the Kingman deal and let someone else get their butt kicked in the extradition mess.

    I doubt he’s getting special treatment in the Utah State Prison, but he for sure doesn’t want to come to Texas and get handed a life sentence for marrying and impregnating a 12 year old.

  314. The only special treatment is keeping him from the General population.

    From what I hear that is the same treatment Lindsy Lohen will get.

  315. Does the hearing in Kingman have anything to do with the Emergency hearing that the AG from Arizona wanted?

    Or does the term Emergency Hearing mean next free date on the court calender?

  316. Why haven’t the Feds started with their court proceedings?

    Warren really doesn’t need to be present for any of this. If they wanted to make room for him in the courtroom they could set up a monitor in his chair and do it all by camera. They could save all kinds of money.

  317. The hearing in Kingman is over the case of Wisan, Barlow and Isaac Wyler. It is separate from the Emergency thing which will be held in Judge Lindberg’s court.

    As for the Feds, my best guess is that they are waiting until the Court of Appeals rules on the evidence gathered at the Ranch. Hopefully then we’ll see them make some moves.

    As for doing stuff with Warren “in camera”, that’s not my understanding of how it works. He has the right to be present in court for any and all hearings. They can’t have a pretrial and get his case on the docket in Schleicher County until he is available to come to the hearing. He also has a right to face his accusers. Remember way back to the Charles Manson trial. They brought him to the court every day until his behavior was so out of control that the judge ruled that he could be placed in a room with a speaker from the court so he could hear the proceedings.

  318. Just got an email that says the extradition hearing is at 1:30 at the West Jordan Courthouse.

  319. Thanks Proud Texan. Kinda funny isn’t it?
    Look at all the time he spent running from his accusers outside of the courtroom.

  320. What’s the BS mentioned by Adams about the silo leased out by Wisan as UEPT property now being claimed as some FLDS bishop’s storehouse?

    My thinking is that if that came up it’s likely to turn out to have been stolen from UEP by FLDS, disassembled in the dark and hauled away and rebuilt.

    Has anyone heard/read anything on that/

  321. where is the bs huesos? i couldn’t find it.

  322. Oh, the article at sltrib, 2nd page of it

  323. If you’re curious – here’s a post on Extradition Procedures.

  324. Ron, what’s up with the reporters now saying that on the 27th Jeffs will be presented with the paper to sign again and if he refuses another hearing will be set?

  325. OK, ignore my last question Ron, you answered it in your Extradition Procedures post.

  326. Here’s more on the extradition of Warren Jeffs, appears the ole turkey dosen’t want to come to Texas. News media reports indicate that hearing is 27 July 2010.

    Read article: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700049559/Hearing-set-to-extradite-Warren-Jeffs.html

  327. The ABC 4 TV station in SLC report is posted in an earlier post on this thread talks about the extradition, here’s the KSL article on story: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11644436&hl=18

  328. Go to YouTube and type in Storyville: Leaving the Cult. It’s about boys leaving the FLDS.

    There are 8 parts.

  329. It’s the British version of “Sons of Perdition”
    Glad it was posted on youtube. Thanks for update PT.

  330. PT, those YouTube segments are actually the “Sons of Perdition” documentary. It was recently aired on the BBC.

  331. Here’s part 2:

  332. Yes, this is Sons of Perdition. Watching it now.

  333. And part 3:

  334. Part 4:

  335. Part 5:

  336. Part 6:

  337. Part 7:

  338. Part 8:

  339. I’m on part 6 now and it suddenly dawned on me that it was sons of perdition. glad it’s on youtube so i can see it.

  340. Yes, this is it. I will have to review it in its entirety to make sure nothing was edited out from the original movie. I can finish reviewing tomorrow.

  341. Note Segment # 6 : Cast member confirms that young girls are married off as early as 14 arranged by Warren Jeffs via a phone call

  342. i feel so bad for sabrina, leaving 4 young children behind. she said she had a child a year.

  343. cat, was the movie around 80 minutes? these clips seem to be close to 10 minutes each.

  344. Sam, joe, bruce, sabrina, suzanne, all of the lost children should be brought to texas to attend warren jeffs trial. while he’s not going to be tried for the crimes he committed against them, he’s the reason these boys and girls can’t live with their families.

  345. ProudTexan, that is a great idea! It would be a powerful reflection of Warren’s “Prior bad acts”. And Warren REALLY does have tons of “Prior bad acts”.

    This would only reflect Warren’s evilness within the Broadbent family.

    What about the Barlow family? And the Jessop family? And the Johnson family? And the Bateman family? And the Steed family? And the Jeffs family? And the Zitting family? And the Bistline family? And the Wyler family? And the Dutson family? And the Copeland family? And the Musser family? And the Chatwin family? And the Stubbs family? And the Wall family? And the White family? And the Keate family? And the Emack family?

    My fingers are getting tired listing all of the families where “Warren the evil despot” has caused wreck and ruin.

  346. Thank you A Texan for bringing the videos here. Soooo many secrets. So many closed doors.

    As much as Warren has a right to see his accusers- his accusers have the right to see true Justice in this world. jmo

    Thanks again for sharing.

  347. And yes, I have tears in my eyes.

  348. Hmmm, perhaps the Youtube version is an edited version to fit into one hour of TV time?

  349. I don’t know Ron, but it is highly moving. I’ll be getting the DVD when it’s available.

  350. Oops – scratch that 8 x 10 = 80. Maybe I need another cup of coffee.

  351. As I recall, the Sons of Perdition film began at approximately 11:10 am, and concluded at approximately 12:35 – 12:40 pm. A Q&A session was conducted for approximately 30 minutes following the film, then there was a standing ovation. I will complete my review of the You Tube videos this evening. So far the only difference I have noted is the use of the word “whilst” instead of “while” in the black screen explanatory notes made by the producers.

  352. So if stuff was cut, it wasn’t much

  353. So far, I have not identified anything which was cut out.
    I will update you once I complete my review this evening.

  354. Oops, the above anon was me, forgot to put my name into the iPad

  355. Watched it. Now the question in my mind is how come none of the major American networks have picked this up?

    It’s gotten so much critical acclaim and it’s quite compelling. What’s wrong with our TV where things like Jersy Shore get shown and this gets ignored?

  356. Ron,
    From what they told me they eventually plan for the film to have wider distribution. They are on the film festival circuit for now.
    Check their facebook page and you can ask them when wider release of the film is scheduled.

  357. Facebook page for Sons of Perdition :
    http://www.facebook.com/beliefnet#!/pages/Sons-of-Perdition/332892946444?ref=ts

  358. Actually the link is :
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sons-of-Perdition/332892946444?ref=ts
    Please remove the link in the post above.

  359. Watched it. Now the question in my mind is how come none of the major American networks have picked this up?

    It’s gotten so much critical acclaim and it’s quite compelling. What’s wrong with our TV where things like Jersy Shore get shown and this gets ignored?

    Ron in Houston said

    Ron the major networks would have to bleep most of language in it.

  360. Wow, I’ve been trying to track down this film forever! I’m really excited about finally getting to see it so I hope it’s okay with the filmakers that it’s on Youtube.

  361. Anon at 9:16AM: I don’t think there’s *that* much swearing in it. It shouldn’t make a huge difference on choosing to air it or not.

  362. There isn’t that much swearing.
    Anon at 9:16 am – do you have cable tv ?
    it is usually much worse than Sons of Perdition

  363. The new posting by Donald Richter, Unethical Conduct of County Attorney Matt Smith and Sheriff Tom Sheahan, is not actually truthful. He states “Arizona had attempted to file charges against Mr. Jeffs in these cases as an accomplice to incest. However, on June 4 of last year, Mohave County Superior Court Judge Steven Conn threw out the charges because the girls were not first cousins at all but second cousins and the relationship did not fall under the incest laws.”

    This is only partly true. He is right that the “relationship did not fall under the incest laws.”

    He is wrong about the girls being second cousins to the men they were forced to marry. These child brides were first cousins of half blood – NOT second cousins to the men. And the current Arizona incest law does not pertain to children under the age of 18. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and really protects these child brides!

    http://www.truthwillprevail.org./index.php?parentid=1&index=207

    “Conn ruled that the current law states both parties to an act of incest must be 18 years or older. Mohave County Attorney Matt Smith argued as absurd that a man could be subjected to harsher penalties for having sex with a relative older than 18 compared to a girl younger than 18. Smith supports the proposed bill but believes Conn would have thrown out the four incest charges against Jeffs anyway because the victims were first cousins from half blood, not full blood. The current statute does not apply to first cousins of half blood.”

    http://www.childbrides.org/arizona_MDN_bill_aims_to_expand_incest_prosecution.html

  364. What? Truth will prevail not truthful? I think I would be shocked if they WERE truthful. Like if they said that Jeffs was guilty of all of that, but they don’t care, cause he’s God on earth, so there. That would be refreshing.

  365. I saw that too anon and I also think that an incest law that only applies to those over 18 is pretty useless in protecting children from adults. I wonder if that law applies to men marrying their 1/2 nieces? 2 of Rulon Jeffs’ sons married his granddaughters (the men’s 1/2 nieces).

  366. On “Sons of Perdition:”

    I have to admit that this is a very compelling documentary. What gripes my a$$ is that BBC obviously felt it was important enough to show it to the Brits. Our networks who have an extremely generous hand out from the government would rather show crap than broadcast serious items that are informational and compelling.

    I don’t know if my comment is just an indictment of our TV or an indictment of our culture in general.

  367. Maybe it hasn’t been offered here yet. If they are trying to mass it out into the movie market then they wouldn’t show it on US television. I have no clue, but that’s my thought.

  368. It would be real refreshing if they told more than 1/2 truths Betty. Most of the stuff they write about have a basis in fact, they just put an FLDS spin on it.

  369. It looks like FLDS attorneys are going to be really busy on the 27th. Warren’s hearing, a hearing over some Silos and also a hearing in the trespass case of Wisan and Barlow are all set for that date.

  370. Attorneys gotta love FLDS, heh.

  371. cha-ching!!!

  372. I wonder how Willie Boy will decide which courthouse to visit? So many court cases … so little time.

    It’s a good thing that Keith Dutson’s trial was postponed or it would have been a 4th court happening on July 27th.

  373. cha-ching!!! is right PT. Spreading the wealth. Stimulating the economy. And the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

    What a religion!

  374. Well let’s see, Pic has to be in Kingman cuz he’s one of the attorneys of record on that hearing, parker is an attorney of record on the silo suit, so i guess that leaves willie to be warren’s counsel at his hearing.

  375. After watching all 8 of the clips, one of the things that stood out was the fact that the father came charging after the 14 year old girl but didn’t seem to give a crap that his 17 year old son had left. Also, when the older sister left she had to leave her 4 young children behind. That’s heartbreaking.

    Another thing that stood out was in segment 2 when they were listening to music and Brucey but on a song that was sung by Warren Jeffs daughters. They said there was 31 of them.

  376. Yet Merril won’t pay child support.

  377. Tensions in Colorado City / Couple claims arrest was religious persecution

    Escalating tensions in the polygamous community along the Utah-Arizona border. The Arizona Attorney General is calling for an emergency hearing with a Utah judge to deal with it.

    Such a hearing didn’t come soon enough for one couple living in Colorado City.

    (Photo caption: Two town marshals arrest Genevive Hainline on her own property.)

    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/Tensions-in-Colorado-City-Couple-claims-arrest/dUj-1A7_LEGLlfehC3wSDQ.cspx

  378. Here’s a link to the photo of the town marshalls manhandling Genvieve Hainline for cleaning out a shed on her property:

  379. Speaking of photos, here’s a few more I saw recently. They’re from Stephanie Sinclair’s photojournalism with the FLDS, but they’re photos that didn’t make it into the National Geographic article.

    http://viiphoto.wg.picturemaxx.com/id/00049385
    http://viiphoto.wg.picturemaxx.com/id/00049387

    If anyone ever asks what LE and CPS see at the FLDS compound in Eldorado to justify the removal of the children, you could say, well maybe something like this, for starters…

  380. What the ex-FLDS need to do is “assist” in getting rid of the corrupt local governments. If AZ or UT won’t take the political steps to disincorporate those towns then the ex-FLDS need to assist by suing those towns out of existence.

  381. So now we get to hear from the apologists what horrible things the Hainlines did to deserve this and how the policemen have the right to throw anyone out of their own town if they want to. Sheesh.

  382. One of the things that struck me about the movie clips above is the ignorance of the residents because of their isolation. Like the kid who didn’t know who Bill Clinton was or Hitler, and the one who thought his grandmother was a world renowned painter.

  383. Betty: I agree the education standards in Short Creek seem poor at best but I thought the kid was just being cute and talking nice about his grandma 🙂

  384. Ellie, let’s hope so.

  385. There has been talk about the Sacred Silos. Is it just certain ones or is it all of them? A few years ago when they were getting ready for the move to Texas they took at least one if not two apart in the night and moved them to Texas.

  386. Thanks for those links. If you do a search for FLDS on those pages, you’ll find others that didn’t make the cut.

  387. http://viiphoto.wg.picturemaxx.com/webgate/preview.php?UURL=b8dd3e4fd9d7db38611d8a411c2f0ecd&IMGID=00049389

    I’m pretty sure I know why this one didn’t make the cut, it clearly says LeAnn Jeffs, 17, cuddles with daughter Sally Jeffs, 1, in her home in San Antonio, Texas on July 13, 2008. Leanne was one of several young women subpoenaed for a recent grand jury hearing.

  388. Walton, I guess those will be forever known and the “sacred silos that got away.”

  389. PT – You’re welcome, I’m glad you like them. Yes, I forgot to mention you can see Stephanie Sinclair’s whole “Polygamy Series” here:
    http://viiphoto.wg.picturemaxx.com/id/cmd.php?UURL=ebc8bb249f35decdf8a228eb3de9f881&SEARCHMODE=SERIES&SHOWSERIES=1.913&TABLIGHTBOX=SERIES

  390. http://viiphoto.wg.picturemaxx.com/id/preview.php?UURL=c50977f286181d0264c151efccb47bbe&SECTION=SERIESRESULT&IMGID=00049369

    check out this one, it shows all 3 of sally jeffs daughters and the children they had while underage.

  391. Here are some of the captions from Stefanie Sinclair’s photo-op with some of the FLDS child brides. Do the math.

    “A portrait is seen of Pamela Jessop, 18, holding sons Johnathan Jessop, who was born in state custody, and Matthew Jessop, 2, inside her mother’s home in San Antonio, Texas on July 12, 2008.”
    “Janet Jeffs, 19, holds daughter Ziona Jeffs, 2, inside her mother’s home in San Antonio, Texas on July 12, 2008.”
    “LeAnn Jeffs, 17, cuddles with daughter Sally Jeffs, 1, in her home in San Antonio, Texas on July 13, 2008.”
    “Veda Keate, 19, and her daughter Sereena Keate, 2, bake cookies inside their home, where they live with Veda’s mother and sister, in Converse, Texas on July 15, 2008.”
    “Louanna Jessop holds daughter Angela Jessop Steed, 2, as members of the Court Appointed Special Advocate Guardian Ad Litem Program, CASA, visit the ranch for the first time (to the right is Guardian Ad Litem Judy Morhouse) in Eldorado, Texas on July 17, 2008.”
    I wonder how old Louanna is?

  392. Louanna is probably legal age at this point, although who knows how old she was at her “marriage.”

    She has seven kids:
    1.Angela, age 2
    2.Virginia, age 4
    3.Harmony, age 10
    4.Zane, age 5
    5.Shem, age 1
    6.Leanna, age 7
    7.Miranda, age 8
    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/21/inside-the-flds-hearings-%e2%80%9dthe-children-are-all-fine-medically%e2%80%9d/

  393. OOPS, missed one –
    “An investigator from the Attorney General of Texas tries to take a DNA sample from Ziona Jeffs, 2, daughter of Janet Jeffs, at their home in San Antonio, Texas on July 11, 2008.”
    Seems Janet Jeffs was 19-years old with a 2-year-old daughter in July 2008.
    “Janet Jeffs, 19, gets ready for a picnic with family members at her mother’s home in San Antonio, Texas on July 11, 2008.”

  394. I think the Janet one and the Veda one are misleading. Both girls were 16 when they had their daughters.

  395. Louanna was 19 when married and 21 when she had Harmony, although the father Leroy is under indictment for marrying Elizabeth Luvern Jessop when she was 14. They have a son who was born while Elizabeth was still underage. Elizabeth is another granddaughter of Merril who was married off underage.

  396. Considering what just happened to the Hainlines, it sure looks like they really need that hearing requested in the Arizona AG’s Emergency Report ASAP. Wouldn’t it be funny if they scheduled it for Tuesday, July 27th.

  397. So, hasn’t LeAnn given birth again since Stephanie took these pictures? Anybody know if she got a boy or a girl, and what she named him/her?

  398. I heard it was a boy, I think during Leroy’s trial.

  399. that last anon was me, i didn’t realize i wasn’t logged in.

  400. WHY are FLDS beating up on the Hainlines anyway, does anyone know? Other than that they’re not FLDS … ?

  401. What’s the story on former member David Williams? He’s the man in the Stephanie Sinclair photo http://viiphoto.wg.picturemaxx.com/id/preview.php?UURL=86cecae4d57400cf68efbe12e314bcee&SECTION=SERIESRESULT&IMGID=00049334 holding the picture of his family with the caption “It is Zion When We’re With You”.

  402. More preliminary results from the Sisters in Islam Polygamy Study continues to be released.
    The study is in the data analysis phase, and is expected to be published next spring.

    Survey says Malaysia wives, children in polygamous families unhappy because men too stretched

    By Sean Yoong (CP) – 10 hours ago

    KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Malaysian children and first wives in polygamous families overwhelmingly oppose the practice because the men seem too stretched to devote enough time and money to them, according to the country’s largest study on the effects of polygamy.

    Though sanctioned by Islam, polygamy is a hot-button issue for Malaysia’s Muslims, who make up nearly two-thirds of the country’s 28 million people. Statements made by about 1,600 members of polygamous households to university researchers appear to bolster claims by women’s rights activists, who have long said the practice undermines the well-being of wives and children.

    “We do not oppose polygamy, but we believe that monogamy is preferable,” Adibah Jodi, a representative of Sisters in Islam, a Malaysian women’s advocacy group, said Thursday.

    There are no official Malaysian statistics on the number of polygamous marriages, but activists estimate they account for about 5 per cent of all new marriages every year, including ones not legally registered.

    Sisters in Islam worked with researchers from Malaysian universities to conduct face-to-face interviews with polygamous families between August 2008 and April 2010. Their data are only preliminary, and since the number of polygamous marriages is unknown, they do not represent a scientific sample.

    At least 90 per cent of 523 children interviewed insisted they would not start polygamous households when they grew up, according to the survey. Nearly 70 per cent of 259 women whose husbands took a second wife would not recommend polygamy and said their husbands were now unable to meet their needs fairly.

    Many wives felt betrayed when their husbands married another spouse — 65 per cent of those interviewed were not consulted first. They also reported feeling ashamed and isolated themselves from their friends.

    Sisters in Islam said they supported the survey after receiving a growing number of complaints from women who said they had suffered in polygamous marriages.

    But the practice also has supporters in Malaysia, where last year a club was started by about 1,000 people who insist the marriages deter adultery and improve the marriage prospects of single mothers and reformed prostitutes.

    Islam allows a man to take up to four wives but also warns men not to neglect any of them. Sisters in Islam and other women’s groups have grown outspoken in recent years, saying Islamic courts sometimes permit men to take a second wife too easily before determining if they can cope. Polygamy is illegal for non-Muslim minorities.

    Although nearly 80 per cent of 214 husbands interviewed believed they could provide for their families, many of their first wives felt cash-strapped. The results were different for 228 second wives interviewed, as they were evenly split on whether to support polygamy.

    The husband is “the family member who most successfully achieves his own desires,” the survey said. “He can have access to more than one sexual partner every night, while his wives have to wait their turn.”

    Sisters in Islam has recommended setting stricter conditions for men who seek the approval of Islamic Shariah courts to become polygamous.

    The group plans to submit the results of the survey, the largest on the issue, to the government and urge authorities to formulate better family policies for Muslims.

    The researchers hope to release their complete analysis by year-end.

    Copyright © 2010 The Canadian Press. All rights reserved.

  403. Granny – Gen and Matt are leasing property from the UEP and since they are not FLDS, the FLDS don’t like it.

  404. I was afraid that was all, simple asinine ignorant hateful bigotry.

  405. that about covers it granny.

  406. Yep, “simple asinine ignorant hateful bigotry” truly is the key factor here GrannyToad. That is what keeps the FLDS alive and flourishing.

  407. Did the older girl really have to leave her four children totally behind? Surely now she’s on the outside she can apply for and get custody, or at least access.

  408. Good Morning, Everyone. May you have a wonderful day and may God bless you, pro and anti alike. Peace to all.

  409. Morning

    Say did you get that rain yesterday? Heaton got his hay watered free.

  410. New to this topic, Melissa?

  411. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/49979526-76/property-lindberg-trust-flds.html.csp

    Judge Lindberg has spoken. Hopefully the idiots in charge of the colorado city police/marshalls will listen and stop their nonsense.

  412. Have the cops in Colorado City become “Lawless” lawmen?

    http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/Have-the-cops-in-Colorado-City-become-Lawless/zEpReQugi0u2n2V5saJ82w.cspx

  413. Yes they have Ellie, but read the article I posted above, Judge Lindberg ruled that there are no prior property rights, so those guys better mind their Ps and Qs if they want to stay lawmen.

  414. You know, it makes sense that there are no property rights. The FLDS say the trust owns everything, so unless you have a lease from the trust you are a squatter. It would make sense that most of those in the twin cities are squatters because they are listening to Warren/Lyle/whomever is telling them crap and not listening to what the law is.

    If I lived there and wanted to continue living there, I’d be rethinking my position at this point.

  415. This arrived today from MEMRI
    Apparently Saudi clerics now think that 6-7 year olds are too young to be married in the wake of the deaths of several childbrides – but 12 year olds are “ready.”

    http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4473.htm

  416. It’s clear from that interview that the important factor in the decision about age of marriage is to make sure the girl is owned by a man before she decides to have sex on her own. That (a girl choosing her own sexual relationships) would be “abomination”. More of the same old same old patriarchy.

  417. The more I read this stuff, the more I am thankful that I was raised by good, strong, loving parents. I cannot imagine being born and raised as a brood mare and not having a voice in my own life.

  418. No, I’m not new to this topic, although I don’t comment often.

    I have recently expressed my respect for Jorjina and her son, and sympathy for their story as told in “Sons of Perdition”.

    Nothing THAT WE HAVE BEEN SHOWN leads me to think Sabrina had no option but to leave her four children behind. She was shopping with her children when she tried to prevent Hillary from escaping. And if she felt that she couldn’t get away with her children, there are procedures and help available to her in her new community to allow her to apply for custody, and to allow her to at least have visitation while custody is decided.

    I know the FLDS have been obstructive before when women have sought access to their children, but if women never even try they will never succeed. The FLDS is also under much more scrutiny than they have been in the past, and seem to have less resources, especially in Short Creek. If they were obstructive, Sabrina has legal options that should be effective in forcing them to allow her contact with her children.

  419. I think there are at least three things keeping her from taking her children. First, her own mental state; she still believes that her husband/the prophet owns her and the children. She has just decided that she’d rather be damned than stay, but she is not willing to make that decision fro the kids. The second reason is that it may be much more difficult to leave with them. If she is suspected of leaving, then her family might take steps to make sure that when she has the option to leave, her children are not with her. Third and most importantly, she does not have the resources to do so. She does not have the knowledge that it’s possible, and has not seen other women succeed. She does not have money for her self, let alone a lawyer good enough to fight against the lawyers that will have the full backing of the FLDS.

    So, I agree with you that it is not impossible for her to take her children, but it is very difficult. Perhaps people on the outside can help her now to get in touch with her children or even to seek custody.

  420. I agree with what Betty said. While I’m not Sabrina and I totally feel for her, it is rare for a woman to be able to get out with all her children. Carolyn did it by escaping into the night with her families’ help. Some of her family had been out for years and had established themselves up in SLC. Sabrina’s family on the outside consisted of her 17 year old brother and a sister and her husband who were about 19. That’s not a firm base of support. You saw what happened when the father came after Hillary the first 2 times and then after the mother and other children. They all caved because it was “father” asking. I can only imagine what it would be like if Sabrina took 4 small children out.

    I also agree that if she is ready, she should go and ask for custody and/or visitation of her children, but that’s got to be her call and she’s got to be in a place to be able to make that decision.

  421. Here’s info on another polygamy related case where lawyers have tied up case for more than 8 years. This case is in federal courts after years of delays in Utah state courts. And the delays continue.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/49936192-78/mitchell-trial-case-jurors.html.csp

  422. You know, Mitchell is a wannabe crazy all to himself. He doesn’t have all these crazies jumping on his every word like Warren and Lyle do. Mitchell just needs to spend the rest of his life in jail for what he did to Elizabeth smart.

  423. Yes Mitchell needs to spend the rest of his life in jail along with Warren, Lyle, Wille the thug, Wendell and Merril the deadbeat wife beater. Yes lets hope Warren Brain end up cellies, they would make a lovely couple! Ole Willie the thug would be jealous!

  424. I think Raymond is getting his just rewards at the moment. Word is that he’s in a prison run by a woman. Imagine that, having to take orders from a woman!!!

  425. Lyle doesnt even live at yfz, considering all the yfz men are inncocent, Lyle shouldnt even come into question

  426. lyle married mable annette when she was under age. several of lyle’s wives and a large number of his children were at the yfz at one time, whether they still are doesn’t matter. lyle isn’t innocent and neither are the men who have already been found guilty and/or pleaded guilty. why would emack and lehi plead guilty if they were innocent? did they just have a burning desire to experience a the texan prison system?

  427. anon 12:05 am

    “Lyle doesnt even live at yfz, considering all the yfz men are inncocent, Lyle shouldnt even come into question”

    =========================

    If you are saying Lyle’s innocence is the same as the perps from YFZ, he ought to have a chat with LE this evening.

  428. lyle lived at the yfz before willie timpson jessop was exed as bishop of short creek. i’m not sure it was such a step up for warren to take lyle from zion and put him as bishop to the forsaken land.

  429. Warren Jeffs conviction overturned by Utah Supreme Court:

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11737707

  430. Please continue on Open Discussion #35

    Thanks – ADMIN

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