Open Discussion #33

Continued from Open Discussion #32 –  This month’s drama:  Abram Jeffs trial, Warren’s prison journeys


~ by FLDS TEXAS on June 12, 2010.

383 Responses to “Open Discussion #33”

  1. My commentary on polygamy for tonight. “You’ll have bad times and he’ll have good times, doing things that you don’t understand. But if you love him, you’ll forgive him, even though he’s hard to understand. If you love him, be proud of him, cause, after all, he’s just a man.”

  2. Warren,

    Was that you who posted the Tammy Wynette “Stand by your man Video” ?

    Enjoy these last few hours on the computer in the Mohave County Jail, honey, because you won’t be having access to a computer in your cell in Texas.

    Keep Sweet now.

  3. Ha, I bet Tammy Wynette isn’t too popular on this blog

  4. not at least with me

  5. well i’m betting naomie makes a move from arizona to wherever the Utah State Prison is to Eldorado. Guess she’s about to become a ranch resident.

  6. Tammy even looked like she was rolling her eyes as she performed it…

    “the song reached number one on the U.S. country charts in late 1968 for three weeks.” according to Wikipedia.

    I like this one much better:

  7. I confess, it was I who posted the Tammy Wynette youtube. I guess I really need to get my avatar back.

    No, I’m not much of a Tammy Wynette fan. I love Patsy Cline, though.


  8. Good choice, Boots!

    This is more my speed:


  9. I like this one, too. A little retro rock with some Gospel organ for a Sunday Morning. “If loving you is such a crime, seems to me I’ve done my time.”

  10. Thanks, Betty, yep, I’ve posted that one before, lol, for sure!

  11. I think “One’s On The Way” by Loretta Lynn should be the FLDS anthem.


  12. Well, tomorrow back to the business of trial with Abram. Wonder if they’ll get the additional 6 they need or if they’ll have to come to San Angelo and start all over again.

  13. How goes the process of jury selection thus far ?

  14. Actually anonymous at 5:44 pm, I found your video to be rather crass.

    If you want to see true gangsta feminism in action, I would suggest that you review the WTF Cougar Ranch thread –

    You will find it much more intellectually stimulating and entertaining –

    Here’s the link for you :


    (Use your real email address when logging on and your future posts may appear – until then, banned – Admin)

  16. I don’t care if it had the profanity bleeped out, the video is still insulting and crass. What are you suggesting, anon ?

  17. If you deleted out the profanity, none of that would be audible.


  18. Betty, you have a point there.

  19. Wow, and someone had the nerve to ask if I kissed my mother with my mouth once…, wow.

  20. Back on topic, the search for jurors goes on in Eldorado, TX. IMO if they can’t find enough jurors they will have to move trial to San Angelo.
    From San Angelo paper:

  21. Eldorado is definitely a weary little group of citizens.

    Kerrville would be happy to host him. A jury here once gave a man 80 consecutive life sentences for molestation. But we’re a Texas Ranger town anyway.

    Should we all send out invitations?

  22. Hey, I see that Blues has a new post up.
    I think we all should head over there and welcome him back.

  23. Sure Boots, send out an invite. I think Eldorado is totally weary of them.

  24. Flora says she doesn’t care to send one from Phoenix but she would sure like to see Warren in Texas as fast as possible, because she’s sure justice will be done there, and no place else.

  25. Just heard they have 36 potential jurors and will strike to 12 tomorrow morning at 10 with opening arguments set for 10:15.

  26. Here’s an interesting article from website of Salt Lake TV station on Warren Jeffs, has interesting interview of Carolyn Jessop:

    Be sure to click on video link associated with article.


  27. Thanks Proud and A Texan !

  28. So Abram Jeffs, Warrens little brother, is going to start his trial this morning!

    Brooke didnt even give a twit. She was too busy writing a piece for Willie.

    Typically, it smacks of FLDS speak. Must be a rewrite from a Willie email.

  29. Maybe “LiesdidntPrevail” has her on retainer.

  30. I don’t know how Willie knows anything, he wasn’t at the trial yesterday more than 30 minutes. Guess they’ve left Abram to his own devices. Willie didn’t even drive him to the Courthouse, Abram had to drive himself.

  31. But but but I thought Willie was the only close member to babysit these goofs.

    Perhaps he thinks Abram is True Blue and less likely to turn states evidence, hence needing less intimidation from Willie.

  32. Hey Lyle! Call out! Your brother is in Texas and its not the Zion place!

  33. any news regarding the composition of the jury?

  34. Proud Texas:

    the article at has a comment saying there might be an “interesting person or two” on the jury. any way you can find out who?

  35. or i guess i should ask Stamp…who and how do you know they weren’t seated?

  36. Eldorado newspaper says jurors seated and that trial is underway.

    Newspaper’s website says prosecution is in opening arguments.

  37. the interesting people were probably the sheriff’s wife and 2 wives of grand jury members. None of them were seated as jurors.

  38. Both sides have given opening arguments and a DPS officer is on the stand.


    Jeffs has been moved to Utah, so let’s get him to Texas now.

  40. Here is a link to an interview of Irene Spencer conducted by Mike Watkiss on the subject of blood atonement in the LeBaron group

  41. Looks like Warren made it back to the Utah State Prison just in time for Friday’s big happening –

    Emotions running deep this week at prison

  42. Warren will no longer be a big fish in a small pond and will not be catered to his every whim like he was in the Kingman Jail. Warren is now again at the Utah State Prison – read STATE PRISON not COUNTY JAIL – where they have bigger fish to fry … like Ronnie Lee Gardner at Friday’s fish fry.

    And this is where his Arizona attorney will fight to keep him? BWAH HA HA HA

    Prisons have a pecking order. Robbers and murders are held in high esteem; child molesters are considered scum.

    Welcome home, Warren.

  43. cannot wait for warren to get his just desserts ….

  44. Are the Hildale Police picking on Ruth Cooke again?

    Birth Date: 05/27/65
    Address : 220 W HAMMON STREET, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    22:03:56 06/13/10 Roundy, Hyrum HILD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid

  45. They will not stop until they kill her, one way or another. I’d get the state police in on this, and AG. If necessary go federal.

  46. It’s what we’ve had to do in defense of some mentally ill persons when ignorant cops are involved with no reasonable oversight. Contact NAMI ?

  47. GrannyToad you have some great ideas. Can you take this on as a victim advocate for Ruth Cooke? Ruth lives in Arizona yet the arresting officer Roundy is with the Hildale, Utah side – although they are usually cross-deputized to work on either side of the Stort Creek state lines.

    GrannyToad, you sound like you have experience in situations like this. Can you contact NAMI and see if they can help, please?

    Thanks so much in advance, your anon-a-friend.

  48. Warren has been transferred to Draper at a serindipidous time – bad actor Ronnie Gardner will be executed by Firing Squad Friday – the same week Warren arrives. This is the first execution in 11 years there.

    Likely to be sobering to all the inmates. Maybe help the reality settle in for them.

    One more chance to reflect and repent.

  49. Hey toad, why don’t you call Buster Johnson’s office regarding Ruth Cooke?
    I am sure he would love to have a reason to get involved….

    just a thought

  50. I keep hearing bits&pieces of how Ruth’s been being mistreated but I cannot say I know enough to take a complaint somewhere someone would both listen and have authority to do something to protect this unfortunate woman.

  51. There’s a new post up at the Plural Life blog about Ruth Edna Fischer Allred Jeffs. She was Abram Jeffs’ stepmother who he also married, as mentioned in his Bad Acts:

    Abram Jeffs, of course, is currently on trial for sexually assualting and impregnating a 15-year-old girl in May 2006, after a sham wedding ceremony.

    Shortly after the 2008 YFZ rescue, Ruth (age 34 at the time) was interviewed by Brooke Adams. Four of Ruth’s children, ages 12 months to four years, had been placed in protective custody and Ruth apparently elected to return to YFZ. The ages of the children indicate that Ruth had an intimate relationship with Abram Jeffs both before and after he sexually assaulted the 15-year-old victim. And of course they all lived on the same property.

    I think this Plural Life article is notable. It’s the closest I’ve ever seen Brook Adams come to admitting that some of the weepy mothers who were trotted out for the FLDS PR campaign are also the same women who stood by and did nothing while their husbands sexually assaulted their underage “sister wives”.

  52. Brooke Adams is amazing!

    She posts “I’ve been told Ruth married Rulon T. Jeffs when he was in his early to mid 80s; she was 19 0r 20. She’s on the left in this widely circulated photograph.”

    That photo was taken from HOPE Org’s web site. Brooke didn’t even bother to change the file name of the photo.

    She gets her newspaper to threaten to sue HOPE for posting her articles (with complete credit given to reporter, source and source’s web site) and then swipes a photo from their web site, says its “widely published” and gives no credit of where she got the photo.

    What a hypocrite!

  53. Yes anon, Brooke Adams is an amazing hypocrite. Maybe the HOPE organization should threaten Brooke and the Tribune. Just a thought

  54. any updates from the trial today ?

  55. This one, cat:

  56. If everyone is wondering why Gov. Perry hasn’t signed the extradition warrant for Warren Jeffs to be sent to Texas is because he can’t. Gov Perry is in China on a business trip drumming up business for Texas. He will not be able to sign until he returns to Austin.

    This means ole Warren Jeffs gets to stay in the Utah prison system until Gov. Perry returns to Texas and can sign the extradition warrant.

  57. Ruth/Edna, whatever the heck she calls herself was married first to Rulon, then to James Rulon Allred until he was kicked out. Allred is the father of her older children,a boy who is now 6 and a girl who is now 5. Abram is the father of her twin boys who are 3. Wonder how often Mr. Allred gets to visit with his children?

  58. I hope Warren is enjoying the Utah State Prison, hopefully he’ll get a front row seat to the execution that’s suppose to happen this week.

  59. Thanks for the update A Texan. Maybe Texas Gov. Perry will meet up with ex-Utah Gov. Huntsman (who is now the US Ambassador to China) and Perry can tell Huntsman how much Texas wants Warren Jeffs to come to his state and Huntsman can tell Perry how much Utah is happy to accommodate him.

    In the meantime, Warren arrived at the Utah State Prison just in time to partake of the “Gardner firing squad” climate. Warren’s timing couldn’t have been more perfect. It would have been a shame to have him extradited to Texas and miss Friday’s big event.

    I hope Gov. Perry has a safe and productive trip to China.

  60. Talk about an ewwwwwwwww moment, Ruth Edna’s mother was also married to Rulon, so when she married Abram, she was not only marrying her stepson, she was marrying her stepbrother.

  61. You know you’re from Hildale when your husband is also your brother and your son.

  62. Their genealogy must be terrrribly confusing. I do hope one day to see the DNA results from the yfz ‘rescue’ It’s been mentioned, more than once, that kids were released to ‘parents’ who weren’t even related to them. But then again, with all the inbreeding…’related’ tends to be a muddled term.

  63. i think they had 1 person pick up kids per location. all the parents didn’t go to cal farley to get the boys, they brought groups of them home.

  64. That’s not the answer, heh.

  65. I wonder what mother’s day and father’s day are like in hildale. it has to be confusing

  66. Likely not celebrated.

  67. i’m with granny, probably not celebrated.

  68. They USED to be honored. Now? As Granny said, not likely. If you asked them – and if they answered – they’d probably say, “EVERY day is Mother’s and Father’s Day.”

  69. but the lines get kinda blurred when your mother suddenly becomes your sister-wife.

  70. i just watched the tammy wynette video and could only imagine sally singing it, but in her case she’d have to ask “which man” first.

  71. In Sally’s case it would have to be sung “Stand By Your Men”.

  72. Less than 1 hour to go before Ronnie Lee Gardner is executed in the Utah State Prison for committing 2 murders.

    The entire prison was put on lock-down today at 4 PM.

    I’m not wild about the death penalty, but in Ronnie’s case, it is called for.

    I wonder how Warren is feeling tonight? His crimes against children are not death penalty punishments, but they are egregious crimes none the less.

    Since Utah is proactive and serious about punishing crimes (once a perpetrator is sentenced), then maybe … just maybe … Warren Jeffs is finally doing a little bit of soul-searching tonight.

    Enjoy the fireworks tonight Warren. They will be a lot different than the ones you enjoyed in Durango a few years ago for the 4th of July.

    Ka-BOOM Ka-BANG! Justice is served for Ronnie Lee Gardner.

    Welcome home, Warren. May your victims find justice.

  73. anon @ 12:24 am –
    Duane, have the integrity to use your own handle when you post here.

  74. any updates from the trial yesterday ?


  75. Blood atonement was uncalled-for.

  76. The San Angelo Standard newspaper reports with an article titled:
    “FLDS TRIALS: Tension stirs over testimony in ranch raid”

    Article details the heated arguments in court today. Appears IMO the defense lawyers are grasping at straws as the judge over ruled all their objections.

    Read article:

  77. Eldorado Success newspaper reports Rebecca Musser on the stand now being grilled by defense lawyers on how much she was paid to testify.

  78. The defense lawyer objected everywhere he could using “trial objection #1” which was his version of objection to the raid and search warrants. It got kind of amusing.

    Becky was on the stand and she was grilled, but she was totally cool under fire. It was a treat to watch her testify.

    Also, breaking news is that one of the FLDS members failed to show up after being subpoenaed and the Judge was not amused about that.

  79. Dyin’ ta know who didn’t show, PT.

  80. Richard Jessop Barlow

  81. Why would he have been subpoenaed?

  82. I sure hope Judge Walther issues a warrant for Contempt of Court for that clown. The FLDS need to learn that there are laws in America and the laws pertain to them too. They are NOT special! They are NOT the chosen ones. They are NOT above the law.

    He’s probably across the Mexican border with deadbeat dad Merril Jessop right now. Good riddance to both of the cowards.

  83. The San Angelo Standard-Times paper says “Walther also issued a writ of attachment so that law enforcement personnel could find and bring the FLDS member in question to court as a witness.

    It must be Richard Jessop Barlow he’s talking about.

  84. Becky Musser is very strong and not intimidated by the FLDS or their attorneys. I guess she saw through that “Keep Sweet” BS after she left the cult. It must drive Willie the Thug crazy!

  85. Can’t be driving Willie too crazy, he hasn’t been in court much to support Abram.

    And yes anon, a Writ of Attachment was signed on Richard Jessop Barlow. It’s similar to a bench warrant is my understanding, but maybe Blues and/or Ron could give more detail about what it is.

    As for Becky, she was awesome. Totally and completely in control and I think that drove the defense attorney nuts.

  86. Funny thing about ole Willie, he’s as closely related to Abram and he is to Leroy, but he isn’t bothering to show up and support this family member. Abram’s dad is dead and can’t show up in court. Leroy’s dad is just a deadbeat.

  87. Would you say that one’s a Jessop, the other a Jeffs?

  88. Well it shouldn’t matter Dagny, Abram, Leroy and Willie share the same closest ancestor in common, a great-grandfather, William Walter Steed.

  89. A writ of attachment is more like an arrest warrant. It allows the person to be arrested and then brought to court.

  90. thanks ron, that’s what i thought when it was happening. welcome back!!!

  91. Current estimates show this company [Jack Daniels] has an annual revenue of 3,000,000 and employs a staff of approximately 25. Guess they must be real busy laying all those wind turbine pads.

    Since they are reputed to depend on taxpayer funded welfare handouts, why is it bad news to see them working for a living?
    If a boycott against FLDS is successful and they are forced on welfare, whose fault would that be? What are “acceptable” ways that the FLDS could employ to earn an honest living without having to rely on welfare?

  92. “What are “acceptable” ways that the FLDS could employ to earn an honest living without having to rely on welfare?”

    Hmmmm One way would be for them to become law abiding citizens, and quit abusing women and children.

    So far thay havent shown much inclination at following the law.

    Yet they expect work or a handout? They can go to Mexico and put their hand out or get a job.

    Brigham Young did it, they can do it too!

  93. anonymous – one way to stop being dependent on welfare is to stop having kids they can’t afford.
    when one man has > 25 kids, it is obvious that he cannot support, educate, or care for them all adequately.

  94. Anon, it’s obvious that supporting them is not part of their idea of what a father is. They have to bring the spirit babies to this planet; after that it’s up to God! Crazy.

  95. I have no problem with them having businesses. Or normal jobs, for that matter. But their businesses often under cut other bidders by employing those who are not compensated according to law. We also know that they have done money laundering and various schemes to avoid paying taxes. Also, using the name of another company (Jack Daniels) and appropriating some of the art work of that logo is both unethical and illegal.

    In short, we are doubting that this company represents a real attempt to make an honest living.

  96. What I am saying is that despite the fact this company shows an income of $3 million per year, virtually every woman and child on that ranch at the time of the raid turns out to have been on state benefits provided by Arizona, listed as “single mothers” naturally.

    Those women and children were then quietly switched over to Texas welfare benefits.

    No charges are expected to be filed in Arizona against any of the perpetrators of this fraud [what a shock]. Y’know, even though they were here in Texas, in some cases for years, they just kept right on collecting those Arizona benefits.

    Doing $3 million a year in business and then having all your “wives” on the government dole is what I like to call RICCO waiting to happen.

    Doin’ $3 million a year in business in my state means I can now look forward to seeing Texans sit on the witness stand, serving as character witnesses for these yahoos, yammering on about how much business they’ve done on a handshake and how the FLDS bubbas don’t even lie about fishing.

    No, they just LIE about having wives, because these women are NOT wives. They are concubines sucking off the government tit, just like they were born and bred to do for their owners, the men with all the legitimate businesses, making MILLIONS of dollars and scores of little bastards they can later abandon, trade for status within the group or rape, depending on the sex of the government funded litter and all.

  97. Boots

    Hope AZ gets serious and does a review of all the fraud.

    Taxpayers should insist the welfare fraud be repaid!

  98. I thought that there were laws that require the father (married or not) to foot part of the bill that the government is paying.

  99. Hey, Matt Smith, I’ve got a case even you can prosecute today, and a genuine victim.

    The tax payers in your county, y’know the ones you were elected to serve?

    They have had millions of their tax dollars stolen from them, sometimes upwards of $200,000 per month in FOOD STAMP COST ALONE, to YOUR COUNTY.

    They have pockets estimated at $111 million dollars deep…and you refuse to go after them for the FRAUD perpetrated on the other tax paying citizens in your county?

    People in Lake Havasu City are screaming because the county government, in an effort to balance a tough budget is cutting the grant to the senior center there, for meals. That cost for that very worthy program is $100,000 per year.

    One FULL MONTH of fraud prevention in Colorado City would fund the seniors program for a YEAR- YOU YAHOO!

    Here’s yer sign and there’s yer victim. The people who elected you are the victim.

  100. “I thought that there were laws that require the father (married or not) to foot part of the bill that the government is paying.”

    When you sign up for welfare you give the state authority to proceed on your behalf and seek paternity and child support to reimburse the state for the welfare benefits paid on behalf of your children. The federal law is Title IV-D of (I believe) the Social Security Act.

    In Texas the Attorney General is the IV-D agency.

  101. Which is why the state of Utah has special classes, given by the Safety Net Committee on how to “safely apply” for benefits when you’re in that oh so tricky situation.

    Y’know the one where you miraculously conceive what must be spirit children because law enforcement can’t seem to even see them as they hang from ATVs with chain saws, and you have no “husband” because he never REALLY married you after all, and he works for profit but turns it all over to the prophet but doesn’t REALLY have any income?

    I wonder how that group that is trying to lobby for a Texas Safety Net Committee is doing in Austin?

  102. So if they’ve been transferred over to the Texas welfare system, then we in Texas need to request that the fathers of these children be held accountable for footing the bill for services provided to them, including medicaid/medicare.

  103. Yep, ProudTexan, I’d be writing to Harvey Hilderbran asking what action in that regard has already been taken, if any…

    I was in his office the next morning when I found out. I drove 6 hours from Dallas to Austin and marched my little feet right up those capital steps. I stunk. His office never did confirm or deny the information was correct.

    But then I didn’t really need confirmation, because I trusted my source in Arizona, implicitly. All I wanted to know, was if the TAX PAYING PEOPLE OF TEXAS WERE GOING TO BE TOLD.

    Obviously, they never were.


  104. I’ll ask Darby about it too. Did I give you the business Lizzie’s Designs to check out? It’s owned by Abram Jeffs’ wife Elizabeth Ann Steed.

  105. And in Texas, you have a bunch of DNA tests that will tell you who the fathers actually are.

  106. Whining about working and doing it legally? What’s wrong with that? Can’t speak for others but that’s how I raised my family. We may not have had much and sometimes not all we needed but we got by. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

  107. News from the trial:

  108. Dagny,

    The only thing I have complained about is this organized crime family’s successful attempts to bilk the government of money, while pocketing the money made from the businesses for the top leaders of the group and withholding it from the women and children who need the support…while they rape their little girls and abandon their little boys.

    Nobody would care if it weren’t for the whole ORGANIZED CRIME problem they have goin’ on.

  109. the state rested in the abram jeffs trial. taking a break and then the defense will begin presenting its case, if it has one.

  110. Defense rested without any witnesses or evidence. Closing arguments tomorrow at 9:30.

  111. So what’s up with a defense strategy that doesn’t call witnesses?

  112. I think they might have called some in Leroy Jessop’s case and it got him 75 years, so maybe they thought it was better not to call any. I think this was the strategy in the Keate case.

  113. Anyone in the pan handle area might want check, just to make sure, who that boy was:

  114. I guess the ploy to not put on a defense is to portray to the jury is that the state has not proven guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

    I highly doubt that Richard Barlow Jessop FINALLY appearing at court today to only plead the 5th will impress the jury.

    Gotta give the guy credit though; he didn’t get on the stand and “lie for the Lord”.

  115. Lubbock … 14-year-old boy who was at this construction site….”after falling into the basement of a house under construction” … “with a relative, who was there working on the plumbing.”

    Anyone out there who can check on the construction going on at 112th Street and Kirby Avenue in Lubbock, Texas?

    We know FLDS member Sam Fisher relocated to Lubbock a couple of years ago.

    And the sad circumstances kind of reek of FLDS accidents for underage construction workers.

  116. Sam’s in Lockney isn’t he? I remember the stink when he moved to that town. I think he’s a cabinet builder.

    As for Richard Barlow, the jury didn’t hear him take the 5th. It was done outside their presence. Word is that Abram was on the phone during the break before the defense was to get started. Guess there wasn’t anyone from the ranch coming to help him out. Kinda sucks since for all the others there was lots of FLDS around all the time, including a set of “rent a parent”.

  117. why isn’t anything being done to pursue the underage labor violations in Texas ?

  118. No clue, guess they have to be caught, so if you have some proof, let’s have it and get it turned in to the proper authorities.

    But I thought you were a WSJ supporter Nocturnal Anon, oh wait, it’s a LyleSJ supporter. What do you think Abram’s chances are with the jury tomorrow?

  119. I am not THAT Nocturnal Anon ! I just thought it was a great handle !

  120. I think Abram’s chance with the jury is no chance at all.
    He will be going to prison.

  121. sorry if I insulted you Nocturnal Anon, it is a great handle, we can call the other one something like LL Anon for Lyle Lover Anon.

  122. I might be the oldest anon on here and never post anything on here that is profound. But it is interesting to follow the flds saga.

  123. Convicted, the jury took less than an hour to convict, now that’s speedy Texas justice.

    Abram Jeffs will now get to take that white prison bus to Huntsville, TX lawdy Lawdy he’s going to be singing those Texas prison blues!

  124. I just love how the Texans don’t turn a blind eye to these child molesting pedophiles. Justice is served!

  125. You’ve got to love Texas … and will the real Anon please stand up !!!!!

  126. In honor of the new convict A Jeffs a song:

    This is your new life, enjoy!

  127. Catching up on reading — been super busy and have missed the commentary here. Good news that another FLDS child molester is going to prison. Color me PROUD TO BE FROM TEXAS. Thank you A/G Greg Abbott and all the prosecutors and related personnel, and the good citizens of Eldorado.

  128. Hearing a rumor out of Arizona that Sam Jessop, age 30, brother of Willie hung himself yesterday.

  129. I hope it’s a false rumor, Boots, for his sake.

  130. Bile poste this on his filthy blog:
    ““PLEASE hire contractors with no NIGGER affiliation !!!! My husband & many of his friends have lost so much work in the last couple of years ! The NIGGERS can work for cheaper rates because they bring all their teen & preteen boys to do all the work. Please pay the little bit extra to NOT use NIGGERS. Tell Lowe’s & Home Depot that you do not want NIGGERS working on your things !!!”……………………………………..”

    He substituted “N–r” for “FLDS”, while there is no comparison between african-americans and plyggers, he is threatening to sue the state, San Angelo, blah blah, for discriminating against FLDS. Is there a legal basis for his rantings? The FLDS are criminals but if they claim religious discrimination, that won’t do any good right? I ask this because many people in San Angelo are losing their jobs to FLDS and that doesn’t seem right.

  131. It will be a matter of time before the FLDS will cheat or over price a building project or abandon a job because the prophet said the end is near leaving the some poor Jack or Jill holding the bag.

    Liars are thieves. Thieves are Liars…..
    and the FLDS are both.

  132. I just had to go to that disgusting blog to see if what was posted above was REALLY posted. It was.

    And a comment by some Cupcake clown said “Thank you, Bill. We must fight bigotry once and for all”

    She doesn’t think that his post was bigotry????

    Those people who post on that disgusting blog are really sick and demented.

  133. Boots, a picture is “hung” a person is “hanged”.

    Either way, I hope this guy didn’t hang himself.

  134. IRT hiring ANY company, a customer has a right to know who they are dealing with and their professional history.

    Are they licensed and insured? Any IRS liens? Any pending court cases?

    Do you trust them when they tell you if they are legal or illegal?

    There are many more questions, and simply getting a job nowdays may require you to answer these questions and more, like a credit report, criminal history, etc.

    If you contract a company for whatever dollar amount, and you feel they havent given you the satisfaction of knowing they are legal in any way, by no means are you obligated to hire them.

    Otherwise you are just gambling, hoping the “low bidder” finishes without getting you drug into their legal drama.

    IRT to Bill’s blustering, he is peeing into the wind, if a group of people are practicing a felonious lifestyle (indicted or not) they havent got a leg to stand on.

    I submit to them, quit the felonies, whatever they are at the time, get licensed, get insured, pay your taxes, work an honest living.

    Its not that hard, lots of people do it, imagine that!

  135. One individual makes a post on a newspaper and you can now sue the state of Texas? What a joke.

    The original post made me somewhat uncomfortable when I read it. Black listing the FLDS from jobs is not the answer. Prosecuting them for child labor law violations, for not paying their workers minimum wage, for not paying FICA and unemployment insurance, etc., is the answer. If they are undercutting everyone by breaking the law, then they should be prosecuted for that, they should be shut down.

    And Duane and Bill are trying to take this post and make it into a statement that the state of Texas is prosecuting innocent people because of bigotry, and that is not at all the case. The DNA and their own words say that they are not innocent. The FLDS are not a minority; they are a criminal gang.

  136. Besides, what has contracting cabinetry installation got to do with criminal trials about their practices with girl children eh?

    You could make the connection better that you don’t want to chance having people like that in/around one’s home and family. Elizabeth Smart.

  137. Betty,

    The way I see it, is that since the bulk of those from Utah are practicing polygamists, and that is a felony, then there is a valid concern for the consumer.

    Its like hiring known druggies or illegal aliens and risking all that comes with that. You dont want to do that unless you are a gambler and you dont care to follow the law.

    I submit that if people choose not to hire people who have moved from Utah, it should be because of legal issues and not religious issues. I think that was your point, and I echo that.

    Hiding behind the skirt of religion (again) just makes them look worse. (Its not the religion, stupid Willie, its what you actually do)

    What they need to do, is quit breaking the law, quit living polygamy, and get real lives and be legal all the way around.

    Until then, they shouldnt expect the Texas economy to be providing them a living like they got away with in Utah.

    Maybe they could convert the ranch into a hunting retreat for rich Las Vegas businessmen, as was their stated intent in the first place?

  138. Reading “Triumph” and astonished at more inside information of day to day life for an flds woman. Cult life – a prison of the mind.

  139. the information about sam jessop is correct.

  140. Good point, Granny!

    Stamp, I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

    Example. I was robbed by gypsies in Europe and have had several unpleasant run ins with them. I am totally paranoid about them now and I never even believed they existed until I was robbed, so it’s not like anyone taught me to be prejudiced about them. Some of my friends in the belly dance world got all upset because I called them gypsies and said that they are “Roma”. I said “it says gypsy on the police report.” They went on about how this is only a small aspect of the “Roma” culture and these poor people have been driven all over the world because of prejudice. I said that they are driven all over Europe in their own Winnebagos and if they don’t want people to be prejudiced against them they should stop hanging out in bus stations pick pocketing and soliciting prostitution. To me, “roma” may be a race and a culture, but “gypsy” is the name of a gang of criminals who prey on honest people for their living and skip town before they can get thrown in jail! I now understand and am in full support of those barricades to RV’s in most European shopping mall parking lots.

  141. Betty –
    It is interesting that in gypsy culture, they say they have a “religious right” given to them by God to pickpocket non gypsies due to the fact that they stole one of the nails which was intended to crucify Christ.
    So here is another group which claims that it has a “religious right” to violate the law.

  142. “the information about sam jessop is correct.”

    That makes me sad. Another life destroyed because Joseph Smith was a charismatic con man. My condolences to those who loved him.

  143. Nocturnal Anon,

    I did not know that. Interesting.

  144. I great letter to the editor from San Angelo paper asks why reporters give Willie Jessop a voice! I don’t know who this guy is, but I salute him!—thompson/

  145. any updates from the trial yet ?

  146. The film “Sons of Perdition” will be featured on NPR this week :

    Directors Jennilyn and Tyler will talk about the film on NPR’s national radio show “Talk of the Nation” Thursday at 2:40 EST. Check local listings.

  147. Anon the Younger here ya go –

  148. From the above Standard-Times article = “Hudson asked Hensley whether he knew if two men with the same last name were brothers, since one man had been on the board of the clinical psychologist’s trauma treatment center which has treated FLDS apostates, and the other had done allegedly done work with the government against the FLDS. Hensley said he did not know if the two were related or if one of the men had accepted money from the state of Texas.”

    Does anyone know who they’re talking about here?

  149. I don’t understand the bit about “pulling in the shoes”. I’m guessing they take their shoes off before they come in doors and having the shoes on the porch is an indication of who lives there.

  150. Yes I think they take off their shoes before going indoors, so the shoes would indicate how many women and children were in the house.

    I recall Tony Alamo’s childbrides saying something similar:

    “But if an unknown man approached the house, the girls knew to rush toward their shoes, neatly lined up near the front door.

    “‘We were supposed to take our shoes and hide them so they didn’t see how many people were staying in the house,’ one said.”

  151. Sorry to change the subject. I just heard last night that a young man, one of the lost boys, committed suicide. His name was Sam Jessop. He was a younger brother of Willie Jessop, although I don’t know if he was from the same mother as Willie. I also don’t know if Sam was kicked out or if he left voluntarily. The difficulties that these lost boys (and girls) have are incredible. One of my acquaintances had a 17 year old nephew leave the FLDS a few months ago. The nephew wanted to get an education and learn to do something with his life. When tested, he read at a 2nd grade level. Can any of us imagine starting in school at the age of 17 in essentially the 2nd grade? The education for so many young people in the FLDS has been ignored or heavily discounted. My understanding is that FLDS leaders are starting to recognize that the FLDS won’t have any professional people soon if they don’t start educating at least some of their youth. A bunch have now enrolled at Mohave Community College and seem to be doing OK, but there are a lot of youth that are way behind and are being ignored. Anyway, I’m just venting a little.

  152. I know and I believe you and they cannot be any less intelligent than all the rest of us. It’s cruel what they’re doing, really sick, to keep their youngsters so ignorant and just get out of them what they want, sex, babies and laborers.

  153. We’ve all seen photos of shoe racks outside on the porch, haven’t we? Did you think that was only for schoolrooms?

  154. My regrets for Sam Jessop. Such a sad waste.

    IRT the lack of education, its another facet of the failures of the leaders.

    It’s too bad there isnt a legal remedy to require education. Its sad the states allow parents to trash childrens lives like this (and in the other ways too).

  155. He got 17 years and a 10,000 fine, off to Huntsville with him, and when he gets out on the sex offender list for life.

  156. Sam Jessop –
    shouldn’t there be a way to punish or have a civil suit – kind of like the cyber bullying – when someone is driven or bullied into suicide. This is worse than the putting a child in a breeding relationship because it is irreversible and a complete waste.

  157. Was he driven or bullied into suicide ?
    Do we know that for sure ?

  158. Anonymous said this on June 23, 2010 at 2:37 AM

    Boots, a picture is “hung” a person is “hanged”.

    Either way, I hope this guy didn’t hang himself.

    Anon, I think you’ll find I can do a pretty good job of writing in Texan rather than English, when I can get away with it.

    I was raised by teachers, who liked to grade my greeting cards.

    This is big rebel stuff fer me doncha’ know…

  159. kicked out for having a gf, couldn’t handle it, is what I read. May as well be a form of blood atonement even if hanging is bloodless

  160. “Was he driven or bullied into suicide ?
    Do we know that for sure ?”

    Actually, yes we do. It is a consistent phenomenon with individuals leaving an oppressive and authoritarian environment. They are lost, adrift, struggling to learn to function in a world they don’t understand and often have difficulties even learning to make their own decisions. Added to that is the internalized messages that they are pure evil now, doomed to damnation and will never be righteous or “saved” again…

    It’s really just amazing that more haven’t killed themselves. People are so horrible to each other!

  161. Sam Jessop was kicked out of his house when he was 15.

    As for the brothers Hudson was digging around about, it was a guy named Lee Brower and Sam Brower. Hensley said he had no clue whether or not the 2 were related.

  162. I see that deadbeat Dad Merrill has paid a portion of the child support he owed Carolyn.
    Wonder what made him break down and decide to finally pay her….

  163. Hey utesfan, about those going to college? isn’t that kind of difficult with a 2nd grade education?

  164. i think the threat of jail did it cat. he still owes oodles and bunches in retroactive support.

  165. well I am glad that things are moving forward in a positive way, although I don’t think he will continue to make payments on a regular basis

  166. he might at least until his own trial for marrying his 12 year old daughter to the prophet comes up in the fall.

  167. Anon, I think you’ll find I can do a pretty good job of writing in Texan rather than English, when I can get away with it.

    I was raised by teachers, who liked to grade my greeting cards.

    This is big rebel stuff fer me doncha’ know…

    Boots said this on June 23, 2010 at 10:08 PM

    Dummy me. I thought Texas was in America. Whatever.

  168. Well… doggone it, I’m just catching up here and somewhere along the way was biting my tongue about whether or not a person is hung.

    Moving on to more important issues, can anyone provide a link for the Sam Jessop tragedy? I can barely express how sad and angry these suicides make me feel.

    Finally, my only comment about today’s court proceedings: and another one bites the dust.

  169. Oh, and one more thing: I’m at a loss to understand the sentences with these trials – 17 years, 33 years, 75 years? Why the huge disparity?

  170. Variations in situations and juries.

  171. Some of us write well in colloquialisms intentionally, it’s not the same as ignorance. Not atall.

  172. What is called today community colleges are to me often continuing education for those who tragically barely make it through public and homeschooling. In my time and my mother’s time most of what’s taught in those at additional taxpayer expense used to be part of grades 1-12 back 50 years and more decades ago.

    Let’s be honest and call it remedial.

  173. East and Toad,
    I would have imagined that Abram would have been sentenced for a longer period of time, due to the fact he assisted his brother in evading arrest – I can’t understand the sentence either….

  174. Aiding a fugitive on the FBI’s 10 most wanted, you’d think that meant something. Maybe it did, we weren’t there. I know what they say about juries …

  175. In cyber bullying – kids pick on another kid and call them names and say they would be better off dead because they are so ugly etc.

    How is that different than kicking a kid out and saying that they are so evil that they are better off dead to their families.

    I still think if people can mount a civil suit based on cyber bullying there is a legal way to mount a civil suit based on bullying (kicking out)

  176. Oh wise and wonderful GrannyToad… tell this naive one… what DO they say about juries?

    Cat, someone can correct me if I’m wrong (Ron???), but I believe Texas has no authority to charge Abram regarding his alleged assistance to Warren’s flight to evade arrest. Those charges and/or indictments would have to be brought at a federal level.

  177. Absolutely East, the Feds would have had to charge him – and they didn’t.
    But the jury was still informed that Abram assisted in the flight of his brother. Despite this, he received a punishment from the jury which was lighter than some of his colleagues.

  178. I found out yesterday that Warren was only on the Most Wanted list from June 2006 until the time he was captured which was August. He was not on the list the whole time he was on the run from Arizona charges.

  179. Well, I wish I could have been a fly on the wall in every one of those jury rooms – in both Utah and Texas. I always wonder how to define justice.

  180. Wonder why there was so little made of Merril’s favorite wife’s death not long ago? A big funeral with at least some media access was provided for another of his wives. Had Barbara become unpredictable and a possible problem for Merril’s upcoming trial?

  181. There wasn’t a documentary being filmed at the time of Bab’s death, hence, no fanfare.

  182. Granny, some community college courses are very focused on a certificate for jobs; I’d call it more like tech school. But I agree, if you get a 2 year general ed in community college, it’s because you didn’t really get high school right.

  183. Discounting the enhancement, 17 years is about average for the type of crime Jeffs committed.

    I’m not surprised since juries are always a bit of a crap shoot, but I figured Jeffs would get more than 17 years due to the enhancement.

  184. Above comment was me.

  185. Ron in Houston,
    Why do you think that the Feds did not charge him with obstruction of justice for assisting Warren during his flight from justice ?

  186. ProudTexan, I think the FBI put Warren on their “Top Ten” list on May 6, 2006. But, yes he was not on there long (not quite 4 months) before he was captured.

  187. Belle

    It’s hard to say – one thing in general to say about the feds is that they are highly selective in the cases they prosecute. They tend to go for bigger cases and often won’t file when a state is actively prosecuting someone.

    Other than that general comment, I have no clue.

  188. Colorado City couple allege power company practices reglious discrimination

    COLORADO CITY, Ariz. — 3TV’s Mike Watkiss has learned that a federal civil rights lawsuit is about to be filed alleging housing discrimination against the twin communities of Hilldale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., and the area’s water and power company.

    The lawsuit being filed on behalf of Ron and Jinger Cooke alleges that the company has engaged in reglious discrimination. The couple say they have been denied power and water at a home they own in Colorado City because they’re not members of the FLDS Church.

    Read the rest here –

  189. I can just hear Willie’s media comments when the discrimination lawsuit is filed – “Religious discrimination? … Who us?”

  190. I can’t wait anon.

  191. FLDS can get over yukking it up their sleeves when the federal civil rights lawsuit pounds them.

  192. I offer to be the spokesperson for the plaintiffs at this lawsuit – I will do a much better job than Willie

  193. Warren Jeffs is fighting extradition to Texas based on …. mistaken identity ?

  194. I personally can not wait for the lawsuit to be filed and for the FLDS to see what it actually means to discriminate because of religion. In Texas they are having trouble understanding that pedophilia isn’t a religion.

  195. The Prophet will be free from captivity sooner then everybody thinks, He is a Perfect and kind man, and it is an honour to know him.

  196. Nocturnal Anon,
    is that you ?
    how is the weather in Spring Valley ?

  197. I live in NV las vegas,

  198. Does that mean Warren the Eyesole is about to drop dead in his shoes?

  199. no of course not

  200. Yeah, GrannyToad, the Prophet predicted he’d die in September, not June or July! Of course, he also predicted Naomi would be dead something like a year and a half ago — but apparently she’s still around so maybe he isn’t that good of a prophet after all.

    Anonymous, Warren Jeffs is a narcissistic con man and you are a gullible dupe if you actually believe he’s perfect. NO ONE is perfect, especially not someone who married his stepmothers. It’s against the Bible and, if I’m not mistaken, against the teachings of Joseph Smith himself. Try thinking for yourself — it will set you free.

    By the way, aren’t the FLDS supposed to be avoiding the evil internet? What are you doing here anyway? Perhaps you aren’t FLDS at all, but just a sad little troll with no place to play. Run along now — your Mommy probably needs you to change your baby’s diapers.

  201. Could the case for “mistaken identity” be based on Warren’s claim that he was not the prophet and never was the prophet, yet thousands of faithful followers had mistaken him to be their prophet?

    Can’t you just picture the attorney minds of Rod Parker and Mike Pic churning right now?

    “The case of the prophet’s mistaken identity” … a la Perry Mason.

  202. wait, warren jeffs is perfect, then why did he marry a 12 year old and get her pregnant? you’ve really got to keep up notcurnal, last time you were spouting the virtues of lyle, have you dumped the lyle bandwagon now?

  203. ca

  204. cat, i’m thinking the mistaken identity since he’s pretty much caught by the camera sucking face with the 12 year old.

  205. i’m not sure either rod or pic could make the mistaken identity claim with a straight face.

  206. The Prophet is and always will be perfect in mine and many others, eyes

  207. The Prophet is and always will be perfect in mine and many others, eyes


    Obviously God doesn’t think he’s perfect, or He wouldn’t have arranged for Warren to be locked away in prison – a place where he won’t be allowed to have sex with little girls any more.

  208. thats because he must atone for everybody elses sins, its not his fault

  209. That is SO funny!

  210. Anon

    “thats because he must atone for everybody elses sins, its not his fault”

    And there are 12 others atoning for FLDS sins as well. And on and on.

    Quit the sinning already!

  211. Nocturnal Anon,
    if you live in NV, why are you using a proxy server in Spring Valley ?

  212. RIH,
    Can you explain to me what the “defense” strategy has been in Texas trials? Since it is clear by now or should be clear that DNA is the clincher and they are going to all be found guilty – why do they persist in pleading innocent and then not mount any kind of real defense? Do they need to plead innocent for a legal reason to preserve appeal or is the innocent plea due to internal politics and beliefs….I am beginning to think that it is part of the “answer them nothing” with the hope that they will wear down the enthusiasm of the prosecutors to keep on spending money so that when the really big guns come up the state will be more willing to plea bargain for Merrill etc.

  213. weenie warren the perfect man? eeeeggggaaaaadddd!!!

  214. HHG

    Before any trial there is a plea negotiation. If the offer by the prosecution is unacceptable for the defense the defense will go ahead to trial hoping that they can beat the plea offer. After Keate’s 75 year conviction, I’d imagine any offer to Jeffs was probably at least 30 years and possibly more. So, the defense strategy is to go to trial and try to paint the defendant as an OK guy and even though being found guilty get him sentenced to less than the plea offer.

    So, as far as Jeffs’ defense team is concerned this is a victory. Sure it’s a partial victory but getting the jury to give less than the plea offer is still a victory.

  215. So then the prosecutors have a choice: set the plea time to as high as they think they can get based on previous convictions vs the time and money spent and value to society etc…..The fact that they are not setting a low plea bargain implies that they are highly committed to these prosecutions?

  216. “3TV’s Mike Watkiss has learned that a federal civil rights lawsuit is about to be filed alleging housing discrimination against the twin communities of Hilldale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., and the area’s water and power company.”

  217. newsflash perfect nocturnal anon, warren’s not perfect and neither is anyone else, he’s lying to ya.

    he’ll come to texas and smell the coffee and then live out the rest of his life in the texas department of corrections.

  218. Warren Jeffs is not Jesus. If the FLDS are Christians, then they would believe that Jesus has already freed humans from sim and there is no point in Jeff’s atoning for anyone’s sins but his own. I also agree that no one is perfect, and anyone who thinks Jeffs is perfect or a prophet is not paying attention to reality on any level.

  219. Ellie,
    …and now to move on to suing the clinic in Hildale for discrimination…. I wonder when that lawsuit will start….

  220. HHG

    Exactly. A prosecutor will make an offer based upon what he thinks he can get as a verdict versus the time and expense to the state. It’s a guessing game. In Jeffs case it appears the defense were better guessers.

  221. i’m not sure the 25 years was actually offered. they offered 7 and 8 to the other plea bargain people.

  222. PT

    I obviously have no idea what was offered. However, I’m pretty certain they beat whatever was on the table because when the sentence was announced the defense attorneys breathed sighs of relief.

  223. i think brandson hudson breathed a sigh of relief because it was over and he didn’t have to piss the judge off anymore. stephanie goodman wasn’t relieved, she was mad that they didn’t give him probation.

  224. Why on earth would they give him probation? Dutson, who was rather young himself and had no other wives, I can understand. But this man was more than twice the age of the girl involved and already had many wives.

  225. i know that and you know that betty, but it didn’t sink in for stephanie.

  226. seeing that warren’s fixing to have an extradition hearing, i wonder if naomie is making plans to move to the ranch.

  227. I just found another great interview with Jennilyn Merten and Tyler Measom, the filmakers behind the “lost boy” documentary Sons of Perdition.

    I haven’t had a chance to see the film but I’ve read everything about it I can get my hands on.

    In the interview, they talk about one of the women who left (I think maybe this was in the film) and how hard it is for her, even though she’s happy to be out. It reminded me again of Carolyn Jessop and just how brave, determined and resourceful these women have to be to escape.

    JM: Warren also told them that it was going to be a test from Heaven and for the girls to get married at 13 and 14. He said, ‘I’m going to make underage marriages even younger as a test to see if they’re loyal to me.’ So the parents are bound up in the same hopeless situation.

    TM: What do you do? Rebel and say ‘I don’t want my son to leave?’ Well then you have to leave, so it turns into let one leave to save the rest.

    WCP: I imagine that once you have children and no money or education you have fewer options.

    TM: Georgina, Joe’s mother, she’s got 12 kids and she’s struggling now. Seven of her kids lived with her when she left. She has no job skills, very little education, no money. She works a part time job, and she doesn’t get child support. Funny thing is she’s struggling and she has a hard time and, but she’s so happy.

  228. Jorgina was in the movie, and was present for the Q& A afterwards. Her son encouraged her to leave.
    The film producers were interviewed on NPR this week as well.
    You must see the movie – particularly the attempted escape of Hillary, the 14 yr old girl they attempted to marry off…the police were called – with film running.

  229. Arizona AG Terry Goddard HAS filed the religious discrimination lawsuit in Short Creek.

    You go Goddard! Have a nice day, Willie.

    COLORADO CITY, Ariz. — Attorney General Terry Goddard announced Friday that his office has filed a lawsuit against the twin communities of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, as well as Hildale-Colorado City Utilities, Twin City Water Authority, and Twin City Power for alleged violations of the Arizona Fair Housing Act.

    Read more here –

  230. thanks for the news anon, that’s great to hear. can’t wait to see the spin wee willie puts on this.

  231. I’d like to see Willie explain his way out of this one.

  232. Thats because he must atone for everybody elses sins, its not his fault


    Jesus already atoned for our sins. And he didn’t do it by screwing little girls.


  234. This link just might show the FLDS Pringle compound on Map Quest. I know this is their property, but am not positive that the link will work right.

  235. Yippee it worked. The FLDS Pringle compound is in the lower right part of this map. Zoom in and you’ll recognize the green-roofed houses.

  236. good find anon, looks like they are using the same house plans to develop the pringle compound. i’ll bet the long undies are much more comfortable up there.

  237. The Associated Press
    The Arizona Republic

    EPHRAIM, Utah – For more than a decade, a 9,000-member polygamist sect that believed civilization was about to end was borrowing money like there was no tomorrow.

    Members of the sect – a renegade Mormon splinter group called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – took out one loan after another from the small-town Bank of Ephraim for business ventures that would prove highly speculative, even half-baked.

    One loan went toward a watermelon farm, but not a single melon was ever planted and the bank had to foreclose on the farm. Another loan was taken out by a business that planned to convert military barracks into motels and housing. The venture, in which the church was a partner, collapsed when the barracks were found to have lead paint, asbestos and other hazards. Still another loan was made to a construction company that so underbid municipal sewer and street contracts it was unable to pay for materials, let alone labor. The bank had to write off that loan, too.

    Ultimately, the bad loans – along with the embezzlement of nearly $5 million by the bank’s head cashier – would lead to the collapse of the 99-year-old bank. Regulators shut it down in June at a cost of millions to shareholders and ordinary depositors who had nothing to do with the sect.

    A bank failure was “the last thing in my mind,” said Chevrolet dealer Ron Greene, who lost about $100,000. “I thought of it as the Rock of Gibraltar.”

    The Bank of Ephraim had profited for many years from higher-interest loans to the sect, whose members live in the twin cities of Hildale and Colorado City astride the Utah-Arizona state line. But eventually the bank “got in too deep,” investing heavily in increasingly risky ventures with sect members who “didn’t have much to lose,” Utah Banking Supervisor Jim Thomas said.

    “They were locked into a community that is – not normal,” Thomas said.

    Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., are a jumble of unfinished houses on dirt streets, where residents follow a strict pioneer-style dress code of long dresses, high collars and long hair for the women, and plain white shirts and dark trousers for the men. The men take multiple wives, producing dozens of children who supply cheap labor for business.

    The insular sect is run by the reclusive Warren Jeffs, who lives in a compound surrounded by a 10-foot wall. Jeffs, 48, demands total obedience from his flock, and his church takes a share of business profits from members. He is buying ranches in Colorado and Texas for what authorities believe may be an exodus.

    Jeffs does not grant interviews, and an attorney for the church, Rodney Parker, did not return calls for comment.

    Keith Church, who joined the bank as president in 2000, said that after it failed, he learned from several people in the business community that sect members had taken a secret oath in 2000 to borrow as much money as they could to prepare for the day that civilization – along with the financial markets – collapsed.

    Sect members who wanted to take out loans from the bank were allowed to put up a dubious form of collateral: their rights to use church land for business purposes.

    At one point, the amount of money borrowed by members of the sect amounted to around $18 million, or about 90 percent of the institution’s loan portfolio – three times higher than what prudent bank management dictates, regulators said. According to the state, an embezzlement scheme by cashier Randy K. McArthur finally pushed the bank over the edge. He pleaded guilty in September to bank fraud and is awaiting sentencing.

    Investigators blamed the loan losses on poor business decisions, not outright fraud.

    Church said he puts much of the blame for the bank’s failure on a lack of aggressive oversight by regulators. He said he was trying to clean up the mess by calling in bad loans and lining up investors when the state shut the place down.

    Many of the bank’s customers accused regulators of tolerating the loans until the coming of the Salt Lake 2002 Winter Olympics ushered in a renewed crackdown by Utah law enforcement on polygamists.

    With the collapse, 13 of 30 bank employees lost their jobs and pensions, and some must sell their houses. The bank’s failure also left 50 uninsured depositors, including turkey farmers, the Chevy dealer and a state college, with a combined $3.6 million in losses. Many were small-business owners who learned too late that deposits over $100,000 are uninsured.

    At Moroni Feed Co., which sells the Norbest brand of turkey, a $250,000 loss “comes right out of the pocket” of 65 family farms already struggling because of depressed prices, cooperative President David P.
    Bailey said.

    “It’s gone – our retirement,” said Terrie Green, co-owner with her husband of Central Utah Title Co., a real estate title service. They lost $84,000.

    Small-business owners mourned the passing of a friendly bank that gave them easy terms.

    Ernest “Gus” Augustus, who opened a new restaurant on Main Street here, no longer has a $15,000 line of credit and said “you can’t get a dime”
    out of other Utah banks.
    Originally published December 6, 2004

  238. That scheme to convert old Army barracks into housing projects was Richard Holm’s bright idea.

    Richard was trucking the old barracks from Victorville in California and they were to become sturdy homes for the FLDS faithful followers in Short Creek.

    The only problem was that those barracks were infested with asbestos, which would not be a very safe place for a little FLDS toddler to lay down his head for a nap.

    The barracks were sawed in half so they’d fit on the flatbeds that were going to move them from Victorville to Colorado City.

    It was after they were sawed in half that the extensive asbestos was totally exposed; it was impossible to hide the stuff protruding from the guts of the mobile units.

    I am not totally sure if the Transporter/receiver (Ricard Holm) knew of the extensive danger of moving these toxic asbestos laden homes to Short Creek for the faithful followers to live in or not.

    But it is my understanding that the people at the Victorville base in California told him there were problems with asbestos in these newly purchased housing units.

    You be the judge.

    I do recall seeing abandoned units I thought were part of these asbestos laden barracks from Victorville just sitting around a vacant lot just off of one of the major roads running through the Creek.

  239. Yes he’d have been told of the need for total rehab in order to reuse the resources. If he claims otherwise assume he lies. He probably got them for $2k each plus his costs to cut & move them. Or something like that.

  240. Many of these units were brought into Hildale/Colorado City and made into apartment or duplex housing, and are being lived in today. I understand that some of them were gutted completely, and only the original frame was used. But some definatley were not gutted. I guess revelation on the asbestos issue wasn’t important enough to inform the faithful followers of the church.
    lil ex plig kid

  241. Brooke from the Trib reports that Texas served the extradition warrant to Utah and ole Warren Jeffs the felonious profit refused to sign it, which sets up hearing before judge. IMO only a formality before ole Warren finds himself a guest of Sheriff Doran’s graybar hotel.

  242. I heard that too, but unless he can come up with an identical twin, he’s in for a trip to Eldorado. God help the community as they will have to deal with all the crazies from the ranch who just can’t understand that visiting at the jail is on Sunday.

  243. I confess watching this extradition fight will be interesting. From what I read the governor of Utah has to sign the extradition warrent. It really didn’t make sense to me with the separation of executive v. judicial branch of the government

  244. I think the extradition fight will be of short duration and another waste of flds funds. Ole warren will soon be incarcerated in Texas.

  245. You could be right ale wife. From what I read it appears that the only thing that could stop extradition, at least at this time, is pending legal proceedings against him in Utah.

  246. Oh good golly, are the courts going to rip Warren apart?

    Utah did their duty, now its Texas turn. And then the Feds, Then back to Utah,

    Around and round he goes, where he stops, no one knows!

  247. If he has his way, he will stop only at becoming a martyr.

    That premise must be thwarted!

  248. Yes, E.Texas. I think he knows he won’t ever get out and the only way he can write his life story to fit his mental fantasy of himself is to die a martyr, praying and fasting. Yes, I agree that the government needs to make sure that does not happen.

  249. What I dislike about it is the fact that it must be dealt with “at all costs” – which, unfortunately and again, falls on us as taxpayers.

  250. Hugh makes it out west and performs for us.

  251. E Texas

    Oh, yeah, I remember when they waltzed in to Texas saying they wouldnt be a drain on society.

    They are a drain on society where ever they go, and their handyman services dont make up the difference!

  252. Alin – the Utah proceedings are over. You don’t get to sit there and wait for the appeal, you move on to the next court in line.

  253. When he arrives in Texas, if he decides not to eat or to scab up his knees praying, somehow I doubt he’ll be jetted off to Vegas for special treatment.

  254. Thought there might be some interest in the association between child marriage and domestic violence –

  255. lmao miele, i doubt any trips to vegas are in wsj’s future.

  256. brent jeffs says in his book that his own mother couldn’t apply for federal assistance because she was legally married to his father, but the 2nd wife could and did.

  257. The Eldorado Success newspaper has set up a Youtube website, with reports on FLDS trials:

    Here’s a sample with Willie the thug stinking you the works:

  258. Here’s the correct youtube video with fat Willie:

  259. ah brooks and wes there with eric.

  260. willie if you don’t like it, don’t come back to texas. you don’t live here anyway. as for all of the victims returning to the yfz, what did you expect them to do you idiot, you and the rest of your cult have been telling them their whole life that if they don’t do exactly as you say they will be damned to hell. i’ve got news for you willie, i think hell has a special place reserved just for you.

  261. Almost didnt recognize Brooks without his hat

  262. Here are some articles on Warren Jeffs refusing extradition to Texas:

    Goofy Warren J thinks he doesn’t have to go to Texas. Wrong, you’re going to Texas dude!

  263. Willie is losing it. He is red faced and tongue tied and basically beside himself. These convictions are really having an impact on the FLDS I believe. Maybe it’s sinking in finally.

  264. nick’s there in the back, wearing his hat. wonder what brooks did with his, he had it earlier.

  265. Willie said:

    “We saw ’em haul off 468 children. We know how the state treats victims. They gave the victims an ultimatum: do you want to be saved by the State or do you want to return your home. Every single one them made the choice that the State is not gonna save them, and they returned to the YFZ Ranch. ”

    Ok, I know Willie is not the brightest guy around, but I don’t think he could have made a more asinine, damning statement about the FLDS. He’s acknowledging that the women and children are victims but they are so indoctrinated and controlled that they still returned to their victimizers.

    Willie let a little too much truth slip out in that statement. I think the FLDS needs a new spokesman.

  266. I saw Nick back there when the camera angle moved to the side of Eric. He looked a little subdued.

  267. He had dodged a bullet earlier, just as he was called to the stand they had a conference at the bench and after the conference was over the state rested. this was not long after the defense asked wes to define salvation.

  268. you caught my point exactly flds texas, as long as the flds people believe that they will be damned to hell and lose their eternal salvation, they are going to go along with the rules imposed on them by the stooges in charge, even if they are idiots like willie jessop. he needs to get on back to colorado city and bulldoze some more disabled people’s lots looking for stolen utilities cuz he’s outworn his usefulness here, if he ever had any.

  269. Willie Jessop is an “enforcer”. He is a thug, a bully and his church role is to intimate EVERYONE – faithful followers, politicians, lawyers, apostates, activists, advocates, reporters, cameramen and lastly, probably his own wives and mothers (and maybe even the church leaders).

    Willie is the ultimate beast and he’s probably proud of having that reputation.

    However, I personally don’t buy what Willie has to say. He is a jabberwalky, mishmash of words, dance around the real issues kind of guy.

    Come to think of it, Willie is probably perfect for this role. A lot of bullshit said with a lot of hot air interspersed. He has finally mastered “williespeak”

    We might see this as foolish and futile. Willie might just see it as his ticket to FINALLY getting that prerequisite 3rd wife for his trip onto the Celestial Kingdom.

    What do YOU think about this latest “willieism” – fool or fox?

  270. Willie makes my left knee hurt. Or maybe it’s Alex out there in the Gulf.

    Anyway, they both spin around in circles, tear things up and hopefully go away after spitting a little.

    I’m sure of it. I like Alex better.

  271. So who are Jabberwalky’s wives? And how many children does he have? Has he ever lived on the ranch or is he just a high priced PR agent who rolls in to play verbal defensive lineback?

  272. Willie Jessop is an “enforcer”. He is a thug, a bully and his church role is to intimate EVERYONE
    Perhaps you do but I don’t feel intimated by him.

  273. Alin – the Utah proceedings are over. You don’t get to sit there and wait for the appeal, you move on to the next court in line.
    You could be right. I honestly don’t know.

  274. Alinusara10 go read the post again. It says “his church role is to intimate EVERYONE”; it does not say he actually accomplishes this task.

  275. I just find it curious that if no one in authority is intimidated by him then why are some of the posters all shook up about it.

  276. alin, we’re just tired of him deflecting the truth, which is these cases are about sexual abuse, not about religion. he keeps forgetting that pedophilia isn’t a religion. you can’t break the law in the name of religion and get away with it. they are just trying to hide the truth and it makes him look like an idiot with a lot of hot air.

    i’m not intimidated by him, but i sure which he’d shut up.

  277. Ahem Willie hon laws in Texas are different. Texas prosecutes. Arizona may have begun following suit, you know, back in the kingdom hahaha of FLDS.

  278. I just find it curious that if no one in authority is intimidated by him then why are some of the posters all shook up about it.
    Willie doesn’t intimidate people in authority. Lying to the press and intimidating women and children is his forte.

  279. i agree ellie and as far as those in power, they are probably letting wee willie hang himself. if something goes wrong, they’ve got a scapegoat.

  280. It appears that Dutson Jr’s trial has been continued. The pretrial scheduled for tomorrow has been taken off the court’s calendar as has the trial which was scheduled to start the last week of July.

  281. #

    Willie Jessop is an “enforcer”. He is a thug, a bully and his church role is to intimate EVERYONE
    Perhaps you do but I don’t feel intimated by him.

    Alinusara10 said this on June 30, 2010 at 7:47 AM

    What are you trying to tell us here?
    Do you know Willie ?
    I thought you told us you were a Southern Baptist from Tennessee.
    What’s up with that ?

  282. Alin just likes to make vague insinuations that can be taken back later. “I’m not intimidated” is suggesting that Willie is just an ordinary guy and we are projecting the idea that he would really send his backhoe over to dig up some family’s yard just to get them to move.

  283. Al

    An FYI

    I know people who have seen Willie in court, even sat quite close to him.

    To Willies and the FLDS surprise, he doesnt intimidate the judge, the jury, or any court attendants.

    He is a joke. Simple as that, and not well spoken either – in fact, liable to talk with his foot in his mouth. You’ve seen the videos!

    Oh, he intimidates FLDS women and children, likely. But thats where it ends.

    In fact I would venture to say that his presence has likely added quite a bit to the sentences handed out at these trials.

    These juries arent stupid you know, they know exactly what game Willie and the FLDS are playing, so they send the message right back.


    Think they heard?

  284. FLDS Texas Admin – It appears that Duane misses us, he continues to visit almost every night.

    (Admin: Thanks – noted, deleted, banned.)

  285. It was really good to see ole dog deci duane get slapped down when he tried post on the SLT comment board. Goes to show that nobody wants to read his carp.

  286. Yes, I am surprised to see that the trib seems to have a monitor again, and that that person seems to be fairly following the rules rather than taking sides.

  287. So Duane has now been banned from the Trib and this blog as well ?
    All he has left is Grandpa Bile’s blog.

  288. Would that he were banned from the SLT comment board, but it was only one post. If the SLT administrator is smart he will just ban him altogether.

  289. Here’s more on Warren Jeffs refusing to be extradited to Texas, TV station article reports that only grounds for fighting extradition is mistaken identity, or in other words the felonious profit would have to prove that it was someone else in those incriminating photos, as well as someone else’s DNA. Article also states that if convicted in Texas, ole Warren would spend the rest of his life here. Looks like it’s only a matter of time before Warren takes that ride on the white bus to Huntsville, TX.

    IMO wouldn’t be surprised to see Warren Jeffs trial moved because of jury issues, security-change of venue to a large metro area like Dalllas/Forth Worth, Houston, Austin, or San Antonio.

  290. I heard grampa bile abandoned his website. Left all his groupies just hanging in the wind with no where to go.

  291. It would be a Good Thing for a wider venue on Warren’s FLDS criminal trial to be bigcity Texas. Their practices don’t really get enough exposure.

  292. If there is a change of venue for Warren’s trial, it should be to Austin, since a big saying there is “Keep Austin Weird”.

  293. I wonder who will be appointed Prophet when Warren goes to jail permanently, or will he continue to run things from prison.

  294. I don’t think even Austin is weird enough to think marrying a 12 year old for your 87th wife is acceptable, juliekan.

  295. I just left a comment on Grandpa Bile’s site.

    Today he is singing the praises of the Bountiful School, where only 49 students have graduated in the past 6 years. He is still moderating the site, contrary to his claims that he is no longer moderating, as my comment has not yet been published.

    It seems that a high percentage of the enrolled students don’t ever graduate from the high school, but the data on enrollees vs. graduates isn’t presented.

  296. I agree Betty, I doubt Austin jurors would find the humor in a 50+ year old man marrying a barely 12 year old little girl. Now if he had married his brother Seth (who was stopped for soliciting his nephew for sexual favors), they might not have a problem with that.

  297. S,
    Prophet-hood is until death. He will be propheting (profiting?) until he dies and prison doesn’t change that. No mortal can “appoint” a prophet; that is a job to which only [the FLDS] god can call a man (I mean a male).

    Of course something crazy could happen (that is, crazier than the situation already is). Some male could rise up from among the current Elders and usurp the position like WSJ did with his father. That Elder would have to come up with another fictional premise that followers will believe and support.

    Personally I don’t see that happening. On the other hand, I would never have dreamed the current situation could happen. Warren is creating/changing FLDS history, which is pretty hypocritical, since the FLDS have for years castigated mainstream Mormonism for doing the same.

    (Sorry for the gender commentary; I simply can’t make myself think of most FLDS males as “real” men.)

  298. One thing that I’m amazed at is all the women they are letting grow old without bearing more children. Warren had 80+ wives, then you have all the wives of the men in jail from the YFZ. That’s a bunch of women.

  299. An article on a polygamy case that has been ongoing for years plans an insanity defense.

    Would have to agree with following comment from article:

    It would appear that the defense attorneys think that a jury outside of Utah will buy the insanity defense, but IMO it is clear the Mitchell was sane enough to pull off the crime at the time.

    IMO there is not much difference in the beliefs and actions of Mitchell & Barzee and Warren Jeffs. To bad the can’t ship Mitchell off to Texas to be tried like Jeffs.

    Any insanity defense IMO will fall apart once they have the prosecution experts testify, along with Elizabeth Smart’s testimony, Mitchell clearly is a master manipulator just like Warren Jeffs, just hope Jeffs lawyers aren’t watching this trial to closely, they just might tie up the courts with insanity defense tactics like Mitchell’s lawyers have done for years.

  300. ProudTexan

    Ineed they are going to have dozens and dozens of FLDS women put out to pasture waiting for decades.

    That’ll put a crimp in the breeding program for sure!

  301. OBTW

    I appears Brookes blog has landed on the rocks – it loads funky and with that exciting new feature, appears abandoned!

  302. On the other hand, at least the women are getting a break to catch their collective breath. Who knows, these children may have the best childhoods in a couple of generations because their mothers will actually have enough time to spend with them without dealing with 6 children 6 and under.

  303. You are totally right Rebeckah, and if Warren is going to continue as the prophet, it could get more lax around the compound since it could be more difficult to smuggle information and revelations out of huntsville than it was in kingman.

  304. Good Evening, Duane –

    The poster on Bill Medvecky’s blog (namely you) is using statistics from a school system in Texas and comparing them to a school in Canada. You cannot extrapolate data in that fashion and use it to make a comparison in a scientific study. You must compare the Bountiful school to schools in the immediate area in terms of enrollment rates and graduation rates.
    You also assume the dropout rate is 10% in the Bountiful school, which is based on your opinion rather than objective data.

    The Bountiful School should present data on the total number of children in their community, and the number of children who initially enroll in the school, and the graduation rate for those children who enroll.

  305. anonymous, the FLDS might not kidnap STRANGERS out of their homes, but what did Warren do to Uncle Fred ???? POOF, gone in the middle of the night, never to see many wives and children again.

    Uncle Fred WAS kidnapped!

  306. Our local school drop out rate is less than one percent

    scores on standardized testing are greater than the 90th percentile.

    Bountiful school scores don’t impress me at all.

  307. Yes, please delete the post by ole liar dog deci duane. I thought his IEPs had been permanently banned from this site. He probably slinks around to free wifi spots to post his drivel here. He posted this same carp under his own name on mad bill’s site.

  308. Having a site not buggered by liars like Duane must be challenging to him and the likes of him.

  309. I agree with Durgo, if the Bountiful school wants to brag on their stats, they need to give more information so it can be accurately evaluated.

  310. what is “the law of sarah in the law of abraham”

  311. Proud,
    I think the law of Sarah is the law where a wife presents a secondary wife to her husband for purposes of polygamous marriage.

  312. Kind of, CW but basically it’s her having to go along with the next marriage whether she wants to or not. Because if she DOESN’T go along the law of Abraham says the husband get the wife anyway.

    Yep, they’re all about “free choice”…

  313. so any way you look at it, it’s just a justification for breaking the law.

  314. “I agree with Durgo, if the Bountiful school wants to brag on their stats, they need to give more information so it can be accurately evaluated.”

    This is what the Bountiful school is claiming on their website:

    The continual complaint that is raised year after year by opponents of our school (Irene, Jancis, Audrey, Linda, is that our students fare poorly on these standardized exams and are not properly educated enough to qualify for post secondary education. The results speak for themselves, and I have yet to have any of the above named ladies take me up on the offer of letting them write the same exams our students do and try to equal our students’ averages.



    Session Date BESS Average Provincial Average

    January, 2010 77.60 % 65.62 %

    April, 2009 82.25 % 69.47 %

    April, 2008 85.16 % 64.75 %

    April, 2007 84.37 % 65.47 %

    January, 2006 84.00 % 64.79 %

    May, 2005 77.00 % 68.24 %

    Is there any substance to their claims or are they just fudging the numbers?

  315. The Bountiful school is also making these claims:

    “In order to satisfy the “demands of the public,” the level of accountability in Independent Schools is, in many respects, much greater than what our counterparts in public education endure.

    Now add to this level of accountability a school such as ours that has been the target of unfair and biased negative reports from the media, BCTF, Audrey, Jancis and others, and suddenly that level of accountability skyrockets. Our school is easily THE MOST evaluated school in the province, maybe even in the country.

    For example, legislation requires all Independent Schools to undergo an external evaluation at least once every six years, with a monitoring inspection at least every 2 years. External evaluations are generally 2-3 days in duration with 2-4 inspectors. Monitoring inspections are usually followups to the external evaluation. Schools are generally provided the luxury of a few weeks or months advance notice to make the necessary preparations for these very thorough inspections. That is not always the case with our school.

    Our most recent external evaluations were in 2002, 2003, 2007 and 2008. We had a program evaluation in 2007 and monitoring inspections in 2002, 2004, 2007, and 2010, and two other unannounced visits from OIIS personnel during this time also. In addition to the frequency of these evaluations, they have usually been UNANNOUNCED as well. That makes a total of 11 inspections and follow up visits in less than 7 years, where most independent schools would have had only two or three in that same time frame. The majority of our evaluations have been very positive with valuable recommendations aimed to enhance our educational package.”


    Is this true?

  316. Duane, aka curious –

    You still haven’t provided accurate information on the drop out rate at Bountiful School compared to the drop out rate in British Columbia schools in general.

    So what if 8 students in the Bountiful school score better than the general public school students in the area, if the drop out rate at Bountiful School is higher than the average drop out rate in that area of British Columbia.

    When you have low sample sizes like 8 students per year in a class , there is not enough statistical power to make generalizations regarding quality of a curriculum or a school for that matter.

    These are very basic principles of biostatistics. Maybe you should take a course in biostatistics before you comment on something you know nothing about.

    The drop out rate of our local school system is 0 percent, and over 95% of the students go to college. Performance on state administered examinations is above the 95th percentile. Bountiful data looks rather unimpressive if you ask me.

  317. I’m curious, not Duane.

    I don’t know what the drop out rate is but assuming it falls within British Columbia norms, is there any substance to these claims. If 8 students per year in a class is not enough to make generalizations regarding the quality of a curriculum, then is it not reasonable to disregard claims that the school is substandard?

    If the Bountiful school is truly exemplary with respect to the student’s test scores and/or other criteria, how could they demonstrate it? Assuming that the number of inspections they are subject to is true, what else could they do convince skeptics that their school is giving their pupils a good education?

  318. “The drop out rate of our local school system is 0 percent, and over 95% of the students go to college. Performance on state administered examinations is above the 95th percentile. Bountiful data looks rather unimpressive if you ask me”

    If what you say is true, then your school is truly exemplary. But of course, you school does not reflect the national average so Bountiful may indeed not be impressive in comparison to your school. But they are claiming the student test scores are substantially above the BC average, they aren’t claiming their scores are at the highest percentile.

  319. “If the Bountiful school is truly exemplary with respect to the student’s test scores and/or other criteria, how could they demonstrate it? Assuming that the number of inspections they are subject to is true, what else could they do convince skeptics that their school is giving their pupils a good education?”

    Curious, in order for the numbers to be properly evaluated one needs to know how many children SHOULD be taking the test in that community, not just how many did take the test. Public schools fare poorly in such tests because the scores of low performing children are averaged in with the high performing children. There is no way, given the tiny slice of informaton the Bountiful school provides, to know whether or not these test scores are indicative of the students in general, or if they are just the scores of the bright students and the other students have been shuffled off to a life of hard labor at the local lumber mill.

  320. Or married off to the latest old geezer to need a new face in his harem.

  321. I never said I think the Bountiful school is bad or good. It is unimpressive when compared to schools in my area. As someone with a background in biostatistics, I don’t have enough information to draw any conclusions, given the limited data set and sample size provided.

    How could one better evaluate the Bountiful school ?

    I think I have made that clear.

    If we were provided with the number of children of school age in the community, the number of children enrolled in the Bountiful school at onset, and the number of children who dropped out from the Bountiful school, along with similar demographic data from other schools in British Columbia – only then could one make a comparison, but it would be of questionable validity due to small sample size at Bountiful School.

    Do not assume that the drop out rates are similar to schools in the area. You do not have that information. It also may very well be that many children in that FLDS community do not enroll in the first place, because they are home schooled. Maybe only the creme de la creme are sent to Bountiful School, and the rest of the children are home schooled. We don’t have sufficient data.

    Who knows how many girls dropped out of school to become the underage brides of older men ? Who knows how many boys were compelled to drop out to work on construction crews? If you see the film “Sons of Perdition”, one of the ex – FLDS boys spoke about how he never completed school because he was compelled to work on housing construction before he was even enrolled in high school.

    The best comparison actually would be to compare the FLDS Bountiful school data with other schools in British Columbia which were administered by religious denominations. I will tell you that Bountiful School doesn’t measure up to the Catholic schools in my area, like Chaminade and St. Regis, where over 75% of the graduates go to Ivy League universities, and the other 25% attend elite Catholic universities, like Notre Dame and Georgetown.

  322. Heh!

  323. I don’t have enough information to draw any conclusions, given the limited data set and sample size provided.

    That’s really the key, isn’t it? If Bountiful “cherry picks” their students – meaning that only the best go on and the rest are assigned mundane labor tasks, then any comparison is faulty.

    Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Hopefully I won’t drown in my lake which averages 3 feet deep.

  324. The “ladies” that are being addressed are female members who were involved in the school and have left the community, if my memory serves me correctly. So the statistics are answering criticism, not from the government, but from within. People who have seen what really happens and know what the curriculum involves. The FLDS routinely calls criticism of apostates unfair and biased. That makes me suspicious that the criticism is spot on accurate, based on what we know of similar dynamics within this group.

  325. Looks like Samuel Johnson with the Hildale Police Dept has been busy this weekend.

    Isn’t this Samuel Chris Fischer the one who lives in Lockney, Texas?

    You can see the mugs shots here –

    Birth Date: 05/21/83
    Address : 750 N CENTRAL ST, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    00:33:06 07/04/10 Johnson, Samuel HILD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid


    Birth Date: 03/13/55
    Address : 495 W UYAH AVE, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    17:43:57 07/03/10 Johnson, Samuel HILD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-6-106(3iv). DV-CRIM MISCHIEF-LESS BM WCJ2 595.00 595.00
    76-5-109.1(2c) DV-DOMEST VIOL-PRESEN BM WCJ2 1890.00 1890.00
    76-5-102 . DV-ASSAULT ,SIMPLE BM WCJ2 957.00 957.00

  326. i heard through the grapevine that there were a couple of arrests in Hildale. Any news on that?

  327. Hope it’s good news. Those FLDS suckers mistreat some folks and the law worse than overlooks what they do, abusing civil rights.

  328. It was Jacob Nathan Jessop, Jr. Not sure what the charges are, it just says Mojave County Detaine. He was arrested at 12:33 this morning by Samuel Johnson.

    The other was Samuel Chris Fischer, brother of Dan Fischer. He was arrested yesterday about 5:30 on charges of domestic violence, simple assault and criminal mischief. Sam has bonded out of jail.

  329. Also looking at the Washington County Sheriff’s page, Miles Cope Roundy and Truman Barlow Shapley was arrested for Court Ordered Commitment.

  330. Found a copy of the writings of Brain Mitchell the kidnapper of Elizabeth Smart. The reason for posting this link here is for comparison with the dictations of Warren Jeffs. IMO Mitchell’s writings sound like the tripe written by Warren Jeffs in his dictations.

    Here’s a link with example of Warren Jeffs dictations, IMO the writings of both Jeffs & Mitchell are so similar as to make one wonder which felonious profit wrote which.

  331. Here’s an article on the purchase of Twin Cities power by Garkane Energy which serves much of south central Utah and parts of North Arizona. The good thing about this is that the FLDS can’t control the power company. This means that non FLDS employees of the company repair & service power lines, read meters etc. FLDS members also have speak to company service reps who are not FLDS as well.

  332. The pilot from Eldorado, TX posted new photos of activity at YFZ, which appears to show 5 new buildings recently completed, one looks like a mini temple, the 4 others appear to be new residential construction. Wonder what’s with the mini Temple?

    Strange IMO that the FLDS keep building with threat of loss of YFZ to UEP/Wisan, civil rights cases in Arizona, as well as possible liability to State of Texas. If Texas or Feds proceed with prosecution of FLDS as organized crime racketeering, RICO, property can be seized as proceeds of criminal activities.

  333. They think they are winning. They got their kids back. The Feds show no sign of prosecuting them and they think that all the convictions will be overturned.

  334. They have not earned their place in this civilized world. They are not even interested in trying, that I can tell.

  335. Everyone is entitled to civil rights Anonymous, 10:30 pm and 10:10 pm, but everyone is required to obey the law, or they must face the consequences.

  336. I have to disagree anonymous. According to the 14th amendment merely being a US citizen guarentees them the same rights and responsibilities of all US citizens.

  337. Alinusara,
    If you haven’t figured it out yet, anonymous 10:10 and anonymous 10:30 pm are both Duane, erecting yet another straw man.

  338. to influence local elections they will have to put forth a qualified candidate. that would have to be someone who wasn’t breaking the law, ie, only one wife. i don’t see that happening.

  339. Thanks. I guess he was going for sarcasm but I missed it. I read over on the Pharisee site that the state asked for a continuance on the Dutson trial. Maybe a plea bargain is in the works.

  340. Nah ProudTexas. “to influence local elections” They only need to vote for the candidate best qualifed to fill the position he or she is applying for.

  341. There you go again, Alin, being obtuse. What constitutes “best qaulified”? Does it mean “totally obedient to the Prophet”, you know, kind of like the police department back at the Creek where the town is in danger of being dissolved as a township and the water board is being sued for discrimination against apostates?

    Yes, everyone who is a registered voter has the right to vote, and I’m grateful for that. But knowing how the FLDS obey the instructions of the prophet and how much trouble there is with corruption in the local government in the Creek, I can certainly understand why the residents near YFZ would be concerned. In ten years, they might not be able to get water and electricity hook ups in their homes because they are “gentiles”.

  342. i still don’t see it happening. they have no clue who the people of the city and county around them are, so they would have no way to judge who is “best qualified” unless they put up their own candidate and then they would have to find someone who isn’t breaking the law.

    an example, suppose they told richard samuel jessop to run for sheriff, well guess what, richard went on oprah and announced he had 3 wives. he’s breaking the law and therefore not qualified to serve.

  343. A Texan

    Thanks for that note comparing Brian and Warren. I just found some more of Warrens dictations on line for comparison!

  344. Oh my,
    that looks like the complete records of Warren Jeffs…..unredactated!!

  345. Yahoo… it looks like the Priesthood records are back !

  346. Wow, gotta check that out.

  347. I found a good one – and it didnt take very long!

    In talking about the Canada court case the FLDS were fighting with Winston Blackmore, Warren’s mind wanders back to Utah, and suddenly its all Utah’s fault, they are making laws against him and no one else, and he wonders if he will have to go into hiding.

    “So it is Utah that are the hard noses”

    No, Warren, nobody likes a child molester!

    Page 2 of 58, bottom left side.

  348. Viewed the photos, manoman that’s bigtime money. With no legs.

  349. On page 8 of that link, upper left, Warren says “God favored me with children for the redemption of Zion.”

    Evidently God wanted to put a stop to that, as he put Warren in the Darwin Award class – out of the gene pool.

    Must not have had enough faith. Geez Warren, and you looked so promising there for a while!

  350. Page 34 was pretty gritty.

    Warren calls up Fred Jessop, and tells him to call James Zitting and have him kick out Jethro Barlow, “have him remove himself and his family, along with his accounting office, to another city”.

    (perhaps this is before the reassignment and repent from afar phase)

    And this was the beginning of the end for Fred? I can just imagine how the phone call went between Fred and James Zitting as Warren passes down orders to kick out the life long friends and fellow cult adherants.

    page 34 on that link, RH side. Warren is one sick puppy!

  351. Page 2

    Warren says that Jethro owns or is in partnership with several businesses, then says he will destroy them, and withdraw any support.

    To add some comedy, he “Counciled two people to withdraw from the Kindergarten”..

    That is adding insult to injury right there! And can you imagine the power those Kindergartners felt when they were allowed to skip school starting at age 5?

    I bet that really sent Jethro a message – LEAVE or we will take more Kindergartners out of school!

  352. Warren Jeffs: “Did you know a woman would wither and die if she were not connected to Priesthood?”

    page 4 RH side, midway down last link

    (No Warren, it just never happens the way you call it – or wait, were you talking about Barbara Jessop?)

    Then this from Warren: “Hello, ladies. Are you all sweet? Number one question.”


    page 4 RH side bottom, last link

  353. I know lots of women who are not connected to the Priesthood who are doing just fine, thank you. Heck, I know a lot of women who haven’t been connected to any sort of man at all for quite awhile and they are still doing fine.

  354. Thanks for link to the photos, a Texan and a HT to the Pilot.

    On the new four huts they’ve gone from using rocks for curb stops to pouring mondo concrete. But then they left the propane tanks out in the middle of the intersection.

    Someone is going to hit them, fer sure the way they drive.

    Everything looks nice and green. I’m sure in west Texas their neighbors really appreciate all their wasting of water for landscaping.

  355. Betty

    But threatening women with death makes it easier for Warren to control them.

    Those women see gobs of people prospering who arent connected to no PeeHoodlums, so on its face its simply a joke.

    This is such a lame claim by him, I had to note it.

    If they believe that crap they will believe anything. It just tears down all his credibility.

    BTW I read some more 2005, he cant seem to quit watching those “disgusting movies on PPV” at motels.

    Good thing “father” didnt catch him!

  356. Warren Jeffs: “Did you know a woman would wither and die if she were not connected to Priesthood?”


    Checking my pulse: yup, still alive.

    It’s all about the dick with these guys, isn’t it. They can’t feel like “men” unless they keep women in their place. A-holes.

    Sorry, this kind of misogynist crap really gets my goat.

  357. If he means that come the Reckoning any woman not submitting to a Priesthood man, then they might believe that. Believing that women die in general when not connect to Priesthood men is either ignorant or stupid, not sure which.

  358. Yanno its funny, but I’m a guy and the mysogynist flavor in that sentence makes me spit too.

    Warren is such a tool. He said it all to keep his people messed up and under his thumb. Downright abusive.

    The sentence was literal, not meant in general when they die. That is addressed also – he threatened another woman who wanted a reassignment that she was sealed and others who got daisy chained werent so lucky so she backed off “real quick”.

    So, this poor woman looking to be released from an asshole is sent back to the hell hole – just like Elissa was – and aint that why Warren is rotting in prison right now, kept from his merry sweet wives?

  359. On that last link where he makes the threat to women, is also a comment about “This is why we are having the clean up, so the good dont go down with the evil”

    And there is lots of talk of the Judgements. He is smart enough to not give a date, (as they keep passing them) but its an excuse to clean house of anyone who isnt a flat out brown noser.

  360. Yes, Anon E Mouse, the word “connected” in that sentence sticks in my craw also. Apparently some dicks are more sacred than others. Who knew?

  361. Whats funny, is this is a fairy tale shell game he is playing. As noted before, all FLDS women dont belong to the Peehoodlums, they belong to the proffft.

    This is dangerous ground, if word of this got out, Peehoodies might think they actually own their women finally!

    Have mercy on those poor women!

  362. miele, the mini temple has been there a while, it’s (i think) what is referred to as the temple annex or the printing building. either way, it does look like a mini temple.

  363. Yeah, thats always been there. But I dont know if they use either of them any more.

  364. The low white building over by the grain elevators is new. No A/C that I can see on that one. Maybe it’s a new way of proving you’re worthy. Sweating in the west Texas heat.

    But, I was looking at the four new houses close up to the temple. On all the other houses except king warren j’s they used cheapo rocks as curb stops. If you look at the new houses they’ve outlined the parking area with these huge concrete stops.

    As bad as they drive, I can see that, but those propane tanks in the intersections are targets. I don’t know, maybe it’s another test.

    I wish I could comment on the comments, but for some reason, I can’t read them.

  365. I see what you’re talking about miele, the newly brought in curbing, wonder who those belong to. I’m not seeing the house with the round room. did it get torn down or something. i think view 0226 is looking over the temple toward cr300. it’s down that long straight path in the distance.

  366. This Priesthood dictation from Jan 2004 has a lot about the planning of the places of refuge esp. the YFZ –

  367. Starting on page 62 in the dictation linked above it has Warren kicking out more men and splitting up their families.

  368. on page 64 of the document linked to above, Warren “handles” David Draper (kicks him out and splits up his family). Isn’t David Draper the guy who drove off the cliff in Hurricane a couple of years ago and committed suicide?

  369. On page 68 of this same document, Warren mentions going back to Short Creek one more time for more “corrections” and then he will give the “scatter order” for his remaining 30+ wives to leave the Hildale compound.

    I would guess that when he finally gave the “scatter order” is when he abandoned the Creek for good and formally went on the lam.

  370. This abandonment of the Creek was after Rodney Holm had been convicted in late August 2003 for bigamy and marrying an underage girl (Ruth Stubbs). It was also after Warren had started kicking out the important and powerful men on January 10, 2004. The “handlings” continued after that date, but were done privately, instead of during church, in front of the entire congregation.

  371. Reading Naomie’s take on Warren’s heavenly sessions and his constant “jerking and jolting” makes me wonder if Warren has Restless Leg Syndrome.

  372. FLDS Admin, when you get a chance, could you please start a new Open Discussion thread and a new Priesthood Record thread, too? We are getting pretty long winded here on this one. Well, I am at least, as I comment about the new dictations.

    Thanks in advance!

  373. Anon 12:33 am : additional possibilities might include some form of epilepsy.

  374. Yeah, I’ve often wondered about temporal lobe epilepsy. The way Warren describes these vivid religious experiences makes me wonder. I’ve often believed that the Apostle Paul’s road to Damascus experience was a temporal lobe episode.

  375. Don’t know about Paul’s road to Damascus experience, but I think Warren’s is all an act so he can have celestial session sex with his young wives. It’s like the Emperor’s New Clothes story. Everyone goes along with the scam because they are afraid not to.

  376. PT: Yes, I think it started with just Naomie witnessing “heavenly fire” and receiving “sweet whisperings” and revelations from God during Warren’s nightly sessions.

    And, as Warren’s designated “scribe”, Naomie enjoys a very privileged position with the most powerful man in the community.

    So what FLDS woman WOULDN’T want to declare that she also has visions of heavenly fire and angels and what-have-you?

  377. I don’t normally consider polygamy a laughing matter but I wanted to share something someone else wrote about the subject that I found pretty funny:

    “I once read a defender of polygamy write that love is not some finite quantity to be divvied up amongst claimants, but an amorphous thing, that can be shared equally and fully to all, [as] a parent does to their offspring. I can only assume this person was an only child.”

  378. Naomie seems to include the “jerking and jolting” in every “Naomie’s Testimony of What Happened Trough the Night” section of the dictations.

    I can’t imagine that Warren would have such bad epilepsy that he would be “jerking and jolting” for hours every single day and night.

    I have to agree with ProudTexan that it is an act.

  379. I think his “epilespy” would have been confirmed and more public since he has been in jail.

    It does seem to be an act.

  380. SwissieMom,

    Remember that he was “jerking and jolting” his head against the jail walls quite a bit.

  381. Please continue on Open Discussion #34

    Thank you!


  382. I think his “epilespy” would have been confirmed and more public since he has been in jail.

    It does seem to be an act.

    Yeah, I know what you’re saying and don’t necessarily disagree. However, there are many forms of epilepsy where the diagnosis would only be made by very close observation of the person.

    It’s interesting. The person that started this thought mentioned restless leg syndrome. That’s generally caused by the dopamine metabolism. Dopamine is also related to religious experiences.

    If I were a betting man, I’d bet on it being an act. However, you never know. Warren does exhibit some very interesting pathologies.

  383. You would need very specialized testing to rule out temporal lobe epilepsy, at a specialized center.
    I would concur that it is most probably an act, but temporal lobe epilepsy would also be a remote possibility, as restless leg syndrome might be.

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: