Open Discussion #29

Continued from Open Discussion #28

Advertisements

~ by FLDS TEXAS on March 13, 2010.

627 Responses to “Open Discussion #29”

  1. kasoe, Thank you for your kind comments at the end of the previous discussion. I was just about to post this…..

  2. Because catwhisperer and deputydog1 asked…
    Warning: If this post looks awful, it’s because I’m having a little fun seeing how WordPress handles HTML code. Yes, I’m an easily entertained computer nerd. 😀

    “…could you tell us a bit about your history, if possible, and how you came to exit?”
    catwhisperer said this on March 11, 2010 at 8:18 AM

    “I know who you are E. I would very much like to know what was the determining factor of why you left?”
    deputydog1 said this on March 12, 2010 at 12:17 PM

    Okay, this is as nutshell as I can get right now. (I expect to drive y’all crazy with my parenthetical thinking.) 😉

    In the beginning:

    eldest-born to parents practicing plural marriage as fundamentalist Mormons in what is now called the FLDS faith – SLC, UT

    educated in public schools (we all were, before homeschooling was started circa ’72)

    graduated high school with honors (my beloved father denied me the 2-year fully-paid college scholarship I was offered which became my first major disappointment in life)

    at age 18 spiritually married as plural wife to highly-regarded 42-year-old (my father’s parting words to me after the ceremony were [paraphrased] he was sorry to be losing a tax exemption)

    gave birth to many children over the subsequent 18 years (most of them home births) while working a lot of that time at gentile workplace to help with family finances

    Some determining factors for leaving – 21 years later:

    one-man rule was a last straw… then the rest of it came boiling to the surface

    increasingly ill husband extracted promises from his wives to not re-marry (for time only) after he dies (supposedly we had that choice in those days; didn’t stay long enough to find out)

    I was the only wife who could drive (husband wanted to worry about only one wife getting killed on the streets of SL valley) and the only wife who could earn a decent living (imagine my thoughts about becoming the only breadwinner for our huge family)

    being blamed for my eldest children’s “rebellious” behavior (I was hardly ever home, they were his children, not mine – that is until they became rebellious – yes, I do have very intelligent kids 🙂 and I learned from them )

    began listening to my rebels and relating to their issues (oh my! I have those issues too & I’ve been suppressing them!)

    re-reviewing old gut-feelings (constantly suppressed) since day one that something’s wrong with husband’s behavior with his young children (no complaints from them)

    extreme stress over my children being mistreated while I’m at work by sister-wives as well as boys sexually molesting girls – mine were complaining about that (husband & sister-wives not dealing with it effectively)

    finally, the biggest determining factor was my struggle with many months of stress turning to depression and suicidal thoughts (I am a complete failure in spite of my desires & efforts for perfection) – then realizing I could not leave my children to fall flat in the world with no foreseeable support or skills (I brought them into this world; I must be responsible for them; the only way they can survive is for me to get on the outside where I can help them; religion and family will leave them “to kick against the pricks”)

    I leave to your imagination the enormous amounts of elucidating verbiage before, between and after all that.

  3. Shucks… it didn’t come out the way I intended… those were supposed to be lots of bullets up there. Well, now I know. 😛

  4. you’re doing better at wordpress than me, just getting italics and smilie faces

  5. thanks for posting all that etexas. i truly hope that others will wake up and realize that their “religion” is really a money sucking cult.

  6. It sucks a lot more than money, PT. I know you already know that.

  7. As for wordpress… I was going by their Support page:
    http://en.support.wordpress.com/code/

    What’s obvious to me is that most of those HTML tags are only available to blog owner/admins. We commenters only get a very few.

  8. yeah, those of us in the peon category get zip, kinda like the rank and file sheeple in the flds.

  9. E.Texas,
    Thank you very much for your writing. If you would permit another question- could you say a little bit about the “believing” state of mind, which I assume you had prior to the marriage you described. It is hard for me to imagine the sort of afterlife that fundamentalist Mormons describe. Is it true that fundamentalist Mormons believe that men with 3 wives will become gods on their own planet in the after life? Is it true that the wives of deserving husbands, soon to be gods, will become goddesses on their husband’s planet? I’ve also read the contradictory story that the children stay with the family in the afterlife. How can they both stay with the family,and also be ruling over their own planet?

    Thanks, I appreciate your efforts.

  10. Thanks for this post, E.
    I see that you are a very intelligent and resourceful woman.
    I have pondered Judith’s question myself. How can a man run his own planet populated by his children, if his children in fact have their own planets to go to??
    It doesn’t seem to make sense.

  11. Thank you so much E. for your information and honesty. I can how and why it would be so difficult with some much intertwining of families, duties, limited choices, it would be extremely difficult to make the choice you did.
    Im sorry you didn’t get to go to college, and that must of crushed your spirit to a large extent. You were fortunate to be raised on the outside and go to public schools. Perhaps this is one reason, you realized what was happening was wrong. Since you had actually been in the outside world.

    My fear is this, the children born on YFZ and the younger ones have been isolated since Warren took them all out of schools, and aren’t getting the same window of the outside you had when you were young.

    For me, all teenagers go through some kind of rebellious nature at teen years, its the natural part of becoming and individual. But, when you cage teens in isolated areas, in my Opinion, they rebellion is worse.

    Im so glad your OUT!!! And I appreciate your honesty.

  12. ETexas, of us have been following this saga for a long time, even before the YFZ rescue attempt and realize who you are from a different blog. I want to encourage you to write your story! As much as I loved Carolyn Jessop’s book and learned from it, I feel yours would be 10 times more informative! When you feel comfortable with it maybe you could get some professional help with writing yours as Carolyn did with hers.

  13. i just looked at the court of appeals and saw that the court reporter in the raymond jessop case got an extension of time to file her record. it is now due june 10.

  14. “Gosh Rebeckah, the admin here changed my posts.”

    Deleting and changing are two different things. Brooke just deleted a portion of one of my posts (for good reason, let me add) and I’m not complaining that she took it out and inserted a [comment deleted]. That is not “altering”.

    “Remember the fit you had when Bill changed your post?”

    Bill didn’t actually change my posts — he changed Blues to inclued racist comments that Blues would never make. THAT is altering. No, I had a “fit” because he published me e-mail address, which his site claims will remain unpublished AND my IP address. Bill is slime and those who listen to him become infected by the poison he spews, clearly.

    “Let’s see your hypocritical values in action this time.”

    Sure, why not. Admin, I suggest you ban this hater rather than editing her (his?) comments. All this person produces is just spite anyway.

    Just my two cents worth, feel free to ignore me too. I just had this sudden urge to reveal my hypocrisy. I thought maybe I’d been hiding it too well. ;P

  15. Yay Rebeckah!

  16. I second that motion, Rebeckah!! 🙂

  17. Judith and Cat, I’ll get back to you on that. I’m just back and forth from computer, getting house ready for visits from some of my “kids.”

    dd1, I fear the same for these innocents – strict isolation, extreme mind control.

    I believe if you are allowed to experience the outside world and allow it to test your upbringing/faith, and you still remain true, then you are a TRUE believer who doesn’t NEED someone to tell you exactly where to live, what to do, say, eat, wear… etc. I think it was Joseph Smith who said, “I teach my people correct principle, and let them govern themselves.” Would that Warren could follow that advice from his prophet.

    LadySadie Thanks for the encouragement. Don’t think I haven’t thought about that book for some time. I’ve hesitated because of some nasty fallout (perhaps ill-perceived on my part) if I went through with it.

    It took me a long time to acknowledge that what I did was a brave thing. I saw myself as a chicken-sh♦t for a while. My escape was at least if not more harrowing then Carolyn’s. I believe I was the first one to do it (years before Carolyn, bless her) and get away with my children. Given the extreme secrecy of our people, especially in SLC, I could easily be wrong about that.

  18. I ♥ your hypocrisy, Rebeckah. 😀

  19. Its human nature to grow and leave home, to have your own life. (not to say one’s family aren’t important) But, Its important for humans to be their own person, independent, and confident the values they were taught,always stay with them, even when they veer from them now and then, its called becoming mature.
    Problem solving, making your own decisions whether they are good ones or mistakes, helps us learn , grown.

    Never feel like you are a chicken (you know what) for having the resasoning power to know what you needed and wanted, thats what nature intended. Family is important, yet after someone is married, their focus should on their immediate family,there has to be a barrier in between, a mental , physical, spiritual boundary set, to keep us healthy.
    My family and I didn’t always agree on everything, including doctrine of belief, be we respected each other beliefs and there was never any force.

    To Sudue a child’s critical thinking and reasoning for themselves leaves them eventually empty.

  20. I also suggest that MaryKay be banned from this blog. He/she/it contributes nothing worth while to the discussion.

  21. Well said, dd1.

    BTW, I did take a lot of college courses, both before and after leaving. I are kwite edyucayted, just not degreed. 😉

    PS… I won just about every spelling bee in grade school.

  22. E. Texas, I freely admit that spellcheck is my friend. The strange thing, though, is I spell better when typing than I do when writing. It’s baffling to me. 🙂

    Thanks everyone for the kind words. I don’t know that I actually want MaryKay banned. While he/she is a troll, they don’t seem to be terribly destructive, just nasty and spiteful. If we kick out everyone we disagree with, who will we laugh at?

    (Deb Lee’s “Bill says…” had me in stitches for hours last week!)

    😀

  23. ETexas, my wish for every FLDS member is exactly what you have accomplished!

  24. Granted MaryKay and duane deci do provide some humor, however accusing the administrator of doing something they did not do is just an invitation to be banned.

  25. Yep, my post was changed. I quoted CatWhisper and the admin changed the quote which made my reply not make sense.

  26. I got news for you, MaryKay. Your posts never make any sense.

  27. BUAHAHAHAHAHAH Betty!!! 🙂

  28. “the” admin eh.

  29. Hey why should the State get to rely on Dr. Beal’s patients statements but not allow the defense to review the medical records?

  30. You want strangers reviewing YOUR medical records, Marykay?

  31. No, I don’t but then again my doctor shouldn’t be allowed to get up on the stand and discuss my private life.

    Did Dr. Beal get permission first from his clients?

    What if some of his FLDS clients told their family they were seeing Dr. Beal but didn’t discuss details. Well, now the family knows those details.

  32. I hear that the Malaysian polygamy study data has been analyzed and is about to be published. This should be interesting. Here is the preliminary data:

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/masjaliza-hamzah-norami-othman/stress-quarrels-and-neglect-normal-polygamous-family

  33. Mary Kay,
    Your posts never make sense. Try taking your medication before you surf the blogs.

  34. i just looked at the court of appeals and saw that the court reporter in the raymond jessop case got an extension of time to file her record. it is now due june 10.

    ProudTexan said this on March 13, 2010 at 4:57 PM

    PT, what is the significance of this? I don’t understand what a record filed by the court reporter means.

  35. Hey why should the State get to rely on Dr. Beal’s patients statements but not allow the defense to review the medical records?

    Marykay said this on March 13, 2010 at 8:01 PM

    Marykay, have you ever heard of HIPPA?

  36. Marykay, I highly doubt that Dr. Bealle will discuss actual patient cases. I bet it will be more of a synopsis of his experience working to help straighten out the damage done to the victims of polygamy living in the FLDS. Ya know, the control, abandonment, child neglect, child abuse, being sexually molested, being kicked to the curb as a young male teenager, being deprived of an education, being threatened of eternal damnation for not marrying some old man, working from youth and not getting paid for it. That kind of stuff.

  37. As for the claim by some that there is no study that polygamy is associated with an increased incidence of abuse, I suggest this review article :
    http://assets0.pubget.com/pdf/pgtmp_dcfca91d-670e-6292-2040-f455207a9857.pdf

  38. MaryKay!!! You Ding BAT!!! Dr Beall did a study on patients in a cult.. He didn’t name names, No doctor does when they do studies, they go by the numbers of patients they treated..

    And Ding BAT, here’s another Point, it like when they do clinical trials for new meds,, they have so many subjects they give the med to, and give a placebo to, they go by reactions to the medicine, what side effects there were of the patients in the trial for their studies.
    They DONT give out the names of the Patients in the study, JUST THE RESULTS!!

    NOW do you understand that, YOU [Descriptive Deleted] DING BAT!!!

  39. Another article documenting that polygamy is a risk factor for physical and sexual abuse of women :
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/41205631655v3264/fulltext.pdf?page=1

  40. Dr Beall hasn’t named ANY of this patients in court!! And won’t! He discusses cause and effect of those who were in the Cult!

  41. Dr Beall is considered an EXPERT witness in his field, Stupid [Descriptive Deleted]!!

  42. I swear to God MaryKay, your Stupidity makes me want to pull my hair OUT!!!

  43. A researcher can cite their data in aggregate form at any time without this presenting a violation of research ethics. Research subjects give their permission for this on the Informed Consent Document in clinical trials. As long as patient names or identifiers are not revealed, there is no violation of the Code of Federal Regulations on Human Subjects Research. DD1 is correct.

  44. the meaning is that it will be longer before briefs are filed for the justices of that court to look at to see if there were any problems with the trial. everything has to be cited from the court reporter’s record.

  45. MaryKay/40anddelusional/Concerned is a mental case! Ron’s ALCOA stock goes up every time she/he posts. MaryKay/40anddelusional/Concerned seriously needs to be hospitalized in their closest mental hospital. Compared to MaryKay/40anddelusional/Concerned Charlie Manson is totally sane!

  46. Thanks PT, so the briefs just became not so brief regarding filing time.

    What a waste of taxpayers dollars for the Texans. Raymond is guilty as sin and more court time (and money) will be spent by frivolous counter claims (appeals).

    Ka-ching! Cough up more tithings you faithful schmucks living in the Crik.

    And the FLDS attorneys’ kids can now go to an Ivy League school instead of the state university.

    Just send money!

  47. Maybe Marykay should contact Dr. Beall. He has a great record of success helping people who are FUBAR.

  48. E. Texas, I spent years in the publishing industry as writer/editor. If you have questions about getting your story published or working w/ a professional collaborator, let me know and I’ll point you in the right direction. You can reach me at texasconnie [at] gmail [dot] com.

  49. touche, anon!

  50. anon@10:25 – raymond’s attorney’s will submit a brief about what errors they believe the trial court made. then the state will respond. i’m sure there’s always the chance of supplemental briefs, but then after all briefs are submitted, the court can rule from the briefs or hold a hearing. ron can correct me if this isn’t the process, but i think it is

    and yes, defense attorney kids and grandkids will all have the funds available for ivy league schools. they’ll be able to do the semester at sea and then a stint at a european semester.

  51. just looked at the court of appeals and saw that the court reporter in the raymond jessop case got an extension of time to file her record. it is now due june 10.

    ProudTexan said this on March 13, 2010 at 4:57 PM

    My latest post gives you a little understanding into this issue.

  52. Excellent post. Are you trying to lower the value of your Alcoa stock?

    Well, that may be hard to do. On your post about Jack, they are blaming the rescue on him, Susan and you.

    Say, Dr. Beall didnt hypnotize you, did he?

  53. “Hey why should the State get to rely on Dr. Beal’s patients statements but not allow the defense to review the medical records?”

    Dr. Beal’s patient records are not applicable to the case. This focus on hypnotism is a major red herring and has nothing to do with anything. The FLDS just want to go on a fishing trip (tip: the fishing is better in a body of water) and they want to know which of their own spoke with Dr. Beal so they can persecute them for being honest rather than “sweet”. If any judge approved turning over that sort of information to the people who are likely to use it to harm vulnerable individuals I would be furious. Researchers are exempted from this sort of thing in order to convince their subjects to talk — if these women don’t know that their identity will be protected there will be even LESS valid information gathered about the abuse that is polygyny.

  54. I think one of the greatest assets the sects possess is the means to control and indoctrinate their members. You will never hear of a covert sect participating in any group survey or polygamist culture expose`. It simply would never gain approval from the tyrannical leaderships. Dr. Beall and his pooled information has to put the endgame before them and they know full well that authoritative studies would point out all of the mind control methods, indoctrination techniques and group think practices. Having safe houses where people are coerced to listen repeatedly to Warren Jeffs’ sermons and recorded lessons isn’t free agency. Shunning members from the FLDS Church is a bullying technique that turns the majority against any dissenter(s). Apostasy is a safety valve for a covert sect leadership grip on indoctrinating the group and making a Judas of anyone who questions the gulag rulers.

  55. If Dr. Beal did do a formal study, it shouldn’t be a problem turning over his data (with numbers instead of names).

    But I don’t think he did do a formal study, he just talked about a small group of his clients.

    So don’t you think this small group should have given him permission to discuss their cases? And once you give permission to have your doctor discuss your private life in public, don’t you then waive claims to confidentiality?

    For example, say you have a shrink who sees about 30 people from corporation X. Becky sues corporation X and has her shrink talk about how everyone from Corp X had problems with harassment. Now Corp X knows all those employees complained about the company.

  56. Mary Unmarried OK

    Why are you worked up over it? The convictions are coming down on you one after another.

    Why not get back to claiming Genocide, or UN infractions!

    Or just plain denial?

    That seems to have served you well in the past!

    People think its lame, and it is, but why not just act crazy about it all?

    Have you thought of picketing with Fred Phelps group?

  57. MaryKay, your example about the Corporation is exactly why the names of the people should not be turned over to the defense team, along with their health records! In this case, the corporation is the FLDS defense team and they want that information so they can harass their own members! You have now answered your own question. 1)it’s not relevant to the case and 2)it’s an invasion of privacy.

    You seems to have a lot of irrational hate for Dr Beal. But oddly none at all for the doctor who failed to report babies born to tweeners. Why is that?

  58. HIPAA laws prohibit providing providing personal medical information with out specific permission of the named party. PERSONAL is the key word. I can tell you that we have 16,000 babies at Parkland each year some of whose mothers are underage, I can also tell you that if they are underage medical staff are required by law to fill out a rider 33 (minor victim of suspected sexual abuse and turn it over to the authorities, police & CPS) what I cannot tell you is the names of the parties, where they live or any case identifying specifics. Key words are PERSONAL and YOU. Because the YFZ doctor did not do that he will most likely lose his license in TEXAS. Dr. Beal is the only name ya’ll have thrown out as providing mental health care to ex-FLDS maybe that’s because he is an adherent of the law and protecting patient confidentiality within the confines of HIPAA. Just because your doctors don’t follow the rules doesn’t mean others don’t. Lastly hypnosis as a general rule in psychotherapy is so passe, I haven’t heard that mentioned since the mid 1980s. Standards of care evolve people even if you don’t…Jeez

  59. Isn’t saying they were members of the FLDs religion specific enough so family and co-workers would know what they talked about.

    To use your hospital example. What if a Doctor stated all the girls at High School Z had STDs. Even if he didn’t name names, everyone would know those girls had STDs.

    What Dr. Beal is doing is giving enough information about his clients they can be easily identified.

    And pathgirl, hypnosis and recovered memories is passe, but according to Brent and Carolyn they both were hypnotized, so you have to wonder if it wasn’t a common practice.

    Plus how do we know Dr. Beal isn’t making all this up or his basing his analysis on the “real” memaning of his client’s dreams.
    I would say the rule is either relying on studies in which people can review the data based on numbers or get permission from your clients to release their private data. Or better yet, get those ex-FLDS on the stand to tell their story directly – then let the jury draw the conclusion.

  60. No, you are implying that gossip = medical information and I have rarely seen that to be the case.

  61. Peer reviewed studies are the basis of science based medicine. In the the case of cults you are not talking about just a medical issue it is also involving social and religious issues, which do not follow the same models. Also while the FLDS is just one group now you are opening the door to study ALL cults and how the FLDS can/do relate to a known pattern of behavior and you/they are not going to want that brought out in a court because they DO have empirical data.

  62. As long as no patient identifiers are used, he can speak of his experiences and his findings regarding care of his patients in general. Individual patient medical records may not be examined without the patient’s permission.
    Good to see you here, pathgirl !

  63. Also if you can’t tell peer reviewed means other doctors. Peer reviewed studies confirm that there is no link to MMR vaccine and autism which has now been upheld in the Vaccine court but try telling that to a true believer like Jemmy McCarthy she will scream fraud every time. Frankly YOU MaryKay are our Jenny McCarthy…someone who likes to point out problems, doesn’t actually understand the process, claims persecution and stared in Dumb & Dumber.

  64. Malicia could return to babbling about SANE exams that never happened. And FLDS Bigots which is correct, they’re on the SPLC list as bigots with the Klan. And baptist buses.

  65. Where is the outrage regarding the fact that the FLDS hierarchy has not formulated a plan for the prevention of the birth of children with fumarase deficiency in their group ?
    A simple genetic test would identify the carriers of the gene in the FLDS population, and then the carriers would be advised either not to marry each other, or to instead to marry, use contraception and adopt children.
    Why must innocent children born with this disorder suffer, when a preventative strategy is so simple and readily available?

  66. Here I finally registered how is this for an avatar?

  67. I cannot see your avatar yet…

  68. OOPs takes 5-10 min so we’ll see. Time to hurry up & wait…

  69. what is it, a bottle of formalin?

  70. Happy Sunday. Who wants some Pi?

    Re: Beall PhD. Hurley via the San Angelo times says he wants this information to ascertain whether he’s lying in his conclustions. Since his conclustions are his own, I guess he wants to know if Beall is lying to himself? Little wonder Judge Walther said no.

    I think the Schliecher County board should want until Judge Walther retires, and rename CR 300 to Barbara Walther Lane. CR 412 could be Judge Walther Lane.

  71. You know MaryKay, there have been several hundred FLDS who have either left or been X out of Flds. No one would know by name which of those several hundred went and sought help from a Professional Licenesed Doctor. “IF” active flds want to play guessing games as to who this study involved, who cares?
    Remember all Apostates are DEAD to the “IN CROWD” once they have been X’d from the group.
    Its just like the Utah Safety Net, they give figures of people treated for abuse, NOT names. Same damn thing!

  72. I agree on the fumerase deficiency; there should be outrage.

    I think the FLDS priesthood does not do anything about it for a variety of reasons:
    1) If you admit that genetic testing could prevent children with the disease, then you also admit that the prophet’s revelations about marriage do not always have happy outcomes.
    2) As in pretty much any other case when the prophet is wrong, it is a test of their faith.
    3)The sick children are punishments for the sins or lack of faith of the mother.
    4) The priesthood men do not provide care for the sick children, the women do. In their system there is a near endless amount of women to take care of the sick and the old. So, the priesthood men who have the power to prevent this problem, do not suffer the most from it. Although I am sure some good men grieve for their children, the more children are born into a polygamous family, the less any one of them matters. Witness the cases where fathers cannot identify pictures of their own children by name and birth order.
    5) They don’t seem to get anyone health care unless the prophet approves in advance, even in life threatening situations. So it is not a cost problem to them if they have unhealthy children. Once again, problem solved.

  73. “What Dr. Beal is doing is giving enough information about his clients they can be easily identified.”

    Then the FLDS don’t need a list, do they?

    “Plus how do we know Dr. Beal isn’t making all this up or his basing his analysis on the “real” memaning of his client’s dreams.”

    Didn’t you just contradict yourself? If they can be easily identified by the information you claim Dr. Beal has provided then it’s pretty clear he hasn’t made it up. And if he’s made anything up, then it doesn’t matter who he saw, does it.

    (By the way, accusing a researcher of “making stuff up” is in really, really poor taste.)

    “Or better yet, get those ex-FLDS on the stand to tell their story directly – then let the jury draw the conclusion.”

    Yeah, so people like you can do an even more in-depth smear campaign? I’m sure people are lining up to put themselves on the stage for that sort of thing.

  74. They want to let Willie the Thug at ’em.

  75. Besides doesn’t Dr. Beall specialize in treating female victims of domestic abuse? All the more reason NOT to give out patient specific & identifying information.

  76. Rebeckah: Didn’t you just contradict yourself? If they can be easily identified by the information you claim Dr. Beal has provided then it’s pretty clear he hasn’t made it up. And if he’s made anything up, then it doesn’t matter who he saw, does it.

    ………………………

    Well said.

    Why is Dr Beal such perennial faborite of Mary Kay’s? Has he/ will he testify in the Texas trials?

  77. Whatever horse Malicia beats to death and well after changes over time. Get used to it.

  78. “Why is Dr Beal such perennial faborite of Mary Kay’s? Has he/ will he testify in the Texas trials?”

    He has testified about the coercion inherent in the FLDS set up (I believe) and is one of the expert witnesses for this trial too — probably for the same purpose. The FLDS can’t stand that a professional knows just how coercive their practices really are, so they are desperately trying to discredit him through any means possible.

  79. It is amazing how they attack professionals who try to help, but they adamantly refuse to deal with the problems in their group. It would not be necessary for any outsiders to help or attempt to make an intervention if they made the necessary changes or interventions themselves.

  80. True Cat. But if they helped and empowered their people they’d lose their power base.

  81. Exposure’s never been a Good Thing for FLDS.

  82. Miele said:

    Since his conclustions are his own, I guess he wants to know if Beall is lying to himself?

    ————————————————-

    Well yes…..people lie to themselves all the time – shrinks are no different. Transference is a very real and common.

    Therapy isn’t an exact science and it’s very common for even two good psychologist to come to different conclusions.

    Let’s say someone came to him depressed – he might conclude it was because they were treated bad in the FLDS. Another psychologist might conclude it was just an adjustment disorder.

    Without the source data the defense is deprived of their right to review the evidence.

  83. Rebeckah: Didn’t you just contradict yourself? If they can be easily identified by the information you claim Dr. Beal has provided then it’s pretty clear he hasn’t made it up. And if he’s made anything up, then it doesn’t matter who he saw, does it.

    —————————————————-

    Did someone just say this was well said! Yikes!

    You could identify someone and then go and make up facts. And he may not even be making it up – his own bias against people who engage in alternative lifestyles could effect his analysis of the situation.

  84. they can ask for whatever they want, but because of HIPAA, they will get nothing.

  85. Mary Kay,
    Wow, what insight ! Where is your degree in psychology from?
    We both know you have no qualifications whatsoever.
    By the way, Mary Kay, “pop psychologist”, if you knew anything about psychology in fact, you would know the difference between transference and counter – transference. Your statement above makes no sense… it should read “..counter-transference is a very common problem…” if it made any sense at all…
    You’re not too swift.

  86. 1. There is an article in the Chicago Tribune or the New York Times today on the original and behavior of trolls. The end message is – they do it for the attention and power. Do not give them the power.

    2. Immediately establishing that I do not follow rules – MaryKay is beginning to sound like Duane with the made up scenarios and what if’s. Why not let it what if itself do death?

    3. Responding to the what if’s lets Mary Kay set the discussion agenda.

  87. Here is my question?

    For the one who plead “no contest” did he get the whole Willie show? Frothing at the mouth about injustice and bigotry etc., the passing of notes to the lawyer? the personal videographer at the court?

  88. I think everyone in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Idaho and British Columbia has seen the whole Willie show. I’ve learned sometimes its just better to NOT watch the train wreck.

  89. the problem is that people outside the above mentioned states are not following what is going on…. there is general ignorance regarding these cases since the raid (or shall I say rescue attempt) due to a lack of press coverage in major media outlets.

  90. This story below perfectly depicts how Mormons deal with sexual abuse of a girl by an adult male. THEY DON’T.

    It doesn’t matter if it is the mainstream Mormons or the Fundy Mormons. Child sexual abuse is handled by the priesthood – read this SL Tribune article below – it was discussed by the “ecclesiastical leaders” instead of law enforcement or CPS. WTF?

    After Garn confessed his sins Thursday evening at the close of the Utah legislative session, his cohorts stood up and applauded him. WTF?

    They should have thrown things at him!

    There are many links to the rest of the story on the SLT web site and I linked a couple of articles from the Deseret News below.

    My beef is that young girls are not protected from horny older men in Utah. And child abuse is dealt with by the priesthood.

    This is why Utah does NOTHING to clean up their dirty little polygamy child molester problem in the state. The powers that be just sweep child molestations under the carpet, after the priesthood intervenes.

    Where was CPS and law enforcement for this girl when she was 15 years old? They weren’t there, but the Mormon church was! Priesthood and patriarchy. They’re all cut from the same cloth in Utah – all varieties of Mormons.

    And SHE was later excommunicated from the Mormon church for having an affair. WTF? Why wasn’t HE excommunicated for having an affair? He was a 28 year old adult MARRIED male and she was a 15 year old child. And his “ecclesiastical leaders” knew all about it because they had discussed it and “dealt” with it.

    It just makes me want to SCREAM!

    LDS Church says local leaders handled claims against Garn

    Allegations made by Cheryl Maher that she had hot-tubbed nude with Kevin Garn when she was 15 were taken seriously by the LDS Church, and were referred to Garn’s local ecclesiastical leaders to be dealt with, a church spokesman said.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14672223

    Utah Legislature: House Majority Leader Kevin Garn resigns amid scandal

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700016289/Utah-Legislature-House-Majority-Leader-Kevin-Garn-resigns-amid-scandal.html

    Cheryl Maher says Kevin Garn lied about hot tub contact

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700016074/Cheryl-Maher-says-Kevin-Garn-lied-about-hot-tub-contact.html

    Deseret News takes own lumps on story of Kevin Garn, Cheryl Maher

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700016111/Deseret-News-takes-own-lumps-on-story-of-Kevin-Garn-Cheryl-Maher.html

  91. I think the lack of widespread media attenion is a function of NIMBY. If they haven’t moved their criminal operation to X state then X state hasn’t any interest at all.

  92. The information is out there for those who seek it, the problem is most people do not reach out for topics that are outside their intrinsic world. Right now it is a ‘local’ issue to western Texas but thanks to the inter-web (lol) people all over the world can tune in. Plus even if they know nothing a 350 lb blubbering, frothy, red-faced screaming man does not make a warm & fuzzy impression.

  93. Willie is entertaining though in a dumb redneck kinda way.

  94. “You could identify someone and then go and make up facts. And he may not even be making it up – his own bias against people who engage in alternative lifestyles could effect his analysis of the situation.”

    Kind of like your bias making it impossible for you to use actual rational thought to analyze the FLDS situation?

  95. There’s something new here. Has anyone else noticed the 3 boxes:

    [Name], [E-mail(private)], [Website]

    just below this Reply box? Just wondering… What’s the deal?

  96. LOL! That’s been there for forever! 😀

    If the name is empty you post as anonymous. If you put a website in the website box it is linked to your name. Don’t know what they do with the email address but at least they don’t sell or publish it.

  97. :oops:… I see, I wasn’t logged in. Pardon the interruption… I hadn’t seen them before.

    I’m back on track

  98. Regarding fumerase deficiency, Betty, you listed five very good points. But if you will indulge me, I can provide a counterbalance to this one:

    “3)The sick children are punishments for the sins or lack of faith of the mother.”

    Not necessarily true – depending on the mother. It may be true if she’s not in a position of favor. It can be grossly subjective depending on the man, his family, or even perceptions of the general congregation.

    However, what’s more likely is exactly the opposite.

    In case it’s not widely understood, here’s the usual flds perspective; what they themselves say and believe about birth defects in their young and how it was explained to me years ago (using an flds voice):

    In the [pre-mortal] spirit world we were the faithful spirits who chose Jesus and not Lucifer during the war in heaven. We knew that to be called forth in the first resurrection and dwell for eternity in the glory of the Celestial Kingdom, we must leave the spirit world to take up a mortal body. We must be thoroughly tested during our mortality, living in perfect faith and obedience and endure all things, then die a mortal death to qualify and enter into that glory.

    In the spirit world, we get to choose our parents as well as who we will marry. We are well aware of the wickedness and the buffetings of satan we must endure and overcome once we are blessed with a temporal body. We who agree to go through life’s tests and succeed in living the celestial laws of heaven are among the chosen few.

    Rather than take the chance they might fail the tests of mortal life, some spirits choose to take up a physically and/or mentally defective body so that they can die innocent and be assured their place in the celestial world. Through the resurrection their poor mortal bodies will be made perfect.

    The trade-off is that they can never become gods/goddesses in their own right. Only those who choose to try, and do endure to the end, have a chance for the highest degrees of celestial glory. But, that trade-off means they will have eternal life as faithful servants to gods and goddesses in the Celestial Kingdom. They choose to be servants in the Celestial Kingdom rather than suffer the possibility of eternal damnation or even life in one of the lower glories.

    In other words, mothers and their children have chosen and covenanted with each other in the spirit world. The mothers who give birth to these spirits in defective bodies consider themselves divinely blessed to care for these innocent souls.

    Think about it (from their perspective): the child never has to go through the normal travails of life and possible failure; the parents never have to endure the stresses of teaching their children (what they consider to be) the truth and the potential heartbreak of watching them fall away (into the arms of Lucifer).

    They believe they and their children are unusually blessed. They do not suffer over the outrages of a society that sees this phenomenon as reprehensible and irresponsible.

  99. these children suffer tremendous physical pain and seizures. this doctrine is ridiculous.

  100. That’s really quite a beautiful legend.

  101. “In the [pre-mortal] spirit world we were the faithful spirits who chose Jesus and not Lucifer during the war in heaven. We knew that to be called forth in the first resurrection and dwell for eternity in the glory of the Celestial Kingdom, we must leave the spirit world to take up a mortal body. We must be thoroughly tested during our mortality, living in perfect faith and obedience and endure all things, then die a mortal death to qualify and enter into that glory.”

    The skeptic in me says “Your REWARD for being faithful and valiant in the pre-existence is to be tested in the mortal world?! Your God is the portion of mortal anatomy through which offal is expelled!”

    No offense intended there but do any of these people even think?

    “Frank, you were a fine soldier and upheld the family honor. Now pass a few more tests and we’ll accept you as one of our own.”

    gack!

  102. E. Texas,

    Just wanted to say, “thanks for your testimony”

    We haven’t ‘formally’ met, as I tend to come & go, but your contribution is greatly appreciated. AND — I congratulate you — on courage & conviction. Would HUG you if you were here.

    Now….about that book. Jane Austen, Louisa May Alcott and Laura Ingalls Wilder all wrote about their own life experience, directly and obliquely ….worked our pretty well for them. I say “give it a shot, sistah!”

    warm regards….TM

  103. Anon

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700016111/Deseret-News-takes-own-lumps-on-story-of-Kevin-Garn-Cheryl-Maher.html

    WOW the Dizzy Newz really got raked over the coals on that one!

    Yes it is abundantly clear that child abuse is overlooked in Utah, from politicians to polygamists.

    Ya know, if he had confessed to smoking a joint it would have been reported.

    The Utah culture doesnt see much wrong with child abuse – Bishops are helpful at sweeping this under the rug, evidently with lots of help!

    Warren Jeffs would be proud!

  104. After reading all this, I am glad I don’t live in Utah. It appears to be a patriarchal free for all. Anything goes.

  105. I don’t think it’s beautiful! I think it’s INCREDIBLY UGLY! It takes the responsibility off of the priesthood men who have the social and financial power to prevent the problem and puts the responsibility on the women and children’s SOULS through an elaborate fairy tale that cannot be proven! The women are told they are BLESSED and should be grateful to work harder and witness the suffering of their children! Oh, and while we’re at it, she should spread her legs and roll the dice to make more suffering children. That’s one of the ugliest stories I have ever heard, because it turns reality on it’s head and makes the innocent infant responsible for chosing it’s own pain and early death!

  106. The Catholic Church in America has paid a very heavy price in real American dollars for handling reports of child abuse internally (if at all). I would think the LDS would learn from that and change it’s policies, but it’s probably going to take someone suing the heck out of them and winning to change it. If there is a report of under aged sex that is taken seriously, you don’t call the man’s local group, you call the police! I also don’t buy the idea that they are more afraid of their church than they are of the police or the courts; except that they believe that with the support of their church, the courts will do nothing to them!

  107. FLDS choose to be irresponsible and have a myth for everything.

    But. Actions do have consequences, as Texas is obligingly showing some of them.

  108. It’s not my fault. Everything is somebody else’s fault.

  109. CW

    Its just amazing. However while Utah isnt alone in scandal ( the east coast is full of it ala John Edwards) having the Church and the two main papers hide it is pretty shocking.

    Isnt it a shame that wherever she went people turned her away – I wonder if she ever went to the cops.

  110. And that reminds me – Not only Garn but Church leaders may yet have legal issues pending.

    We’ll see.

  111. Nobody in the media on the east coast was covering up for John Edwards, that is the difference, Stamp. Utah is in a class totally by itself in corruption.

  112. Exactly, but unfortunately, this fairy tale is not exclusive to Mormons. A few of my New Age friends have a very similar story.

    They claim that the soul choses particulars of it’s life before birth, in an attempt to design it’s own learning experience. For instance, if you have an abusive parent, it’s partly your fault because you “chose” this path before birth. This drives me nuts.

    First of all, it is logically absurd because it allows the individual total control over the whole world while simultaneously telling all individuals that they have such control. Basically, it makes the individual the star, and reality a movie that they designed. The religion of narcissism!

    What if you chose your abisove parent, but your parent choses to kick their alcohol habit, get healthy and not abuse their children. Overall, this would be a good thing that we should all applaud, but since your soul chose to be abused, it’s losing out and will have to start over. Isn’t that absurd? So this whole theory is only useful in describing what has already occurred and is known and in placing the blame on the self in the pre life rather than on anyone in this life. Not only does it not help anyone to live better or happier, which I think is the purpose of philosophy, all it does is falsely congratulate or blame yourself for “decisions” that you cannot make in this life or even prove that you made in some previous phase.

    In short, this whole fantasy removes free will from the present and places it in some mythical pre-birth experience.

    Besides subverting free will in ourselves and others, it also completely rules out pure chance. Your soul apparently controls the weather, microbes, the deer that runs out in front of your car and causes a life changing accident, the scholarship commitee who choses you (or not) and so on ad infinitum. You could be a completely successful person, who has totally divurged from your self imposed lesson plan in which you were a hopeless loser and thus you aren’t really a success after all! So this approaches in absurdity the idea that Voltaire ridiculed, that what we are living is the best of all possible worlds by saying that the individual is living in the best of all possible school for the soul!

    Another thing that I hate about this is the inflated ego aspect of it. Should you design your own course to learn a language you don’t know or would it be better to get a language expert to do that? Should you decide how you want to learn physics course when you know nothing about it? The idea that your soul is qualified to teach itself to become a better soul is just too prideful for words. We only need God, angels or “spirit guides” to help us with our own superior design for our salvation, cause after all, we know best. What a crock!

  113. Nobody in the media on the east coast was covering up for John Edwards, that is the difference, Stamp. Utah is in a class totally by itself in corruption.

    catwhisperer said this on March 15, 2010 at 8:21 AM
    ______________

    I agree, Cat. What is an enigma to me is how Utah is able to keep all the abuse a secret. No one in the East has even heard of the FLDS. I often joke that they believe the FLDS to be a piece af banking legislation.

  114. Utah and Arizona are Like Vegas,, What happens there, stays there, or at least they push for it to stay hidden.

  115. Utah for certain.

  116. Well look where that got them. they have major egg on their face first from the FLDS fiasco and now the

    MAJORITY LEADER IN THE UTAH HOUSE

    Utah: “Scandals Elevated”

  117. Betty, you’re touching on the whole “predistination” aspects of any religion, including flds.

    I was taught that god knows before we’re ever born in mortality whether or not we will be faithful. So my question at a very young age was, in effect, what’s the point of coming here then and having to “prove” what god already knows?

    Did I get a good or reasonable or understandable answer? NOPE!

  118. Rebeckah: We must be thoroughly tested during our mortality, living in perfect faith and obedience and endure all things, then die a mortal death to qualify and enter into that glory.”

    The skeptic in me says “Your REWARD for being faithful and valiant in the pre-existence is to be tested in the mortal world?! Your God is the portion of mortal anatomy through which offal is expelled!”

    No offense intended there but do any of these people even think?

    ……………………………

    It goes against the Christianity that I was taught and believe in: which is that although we should aspire to live as Christ lived, only He was perfect, and we can never be perfect, we will always fall short of the mark, but the Good News is: we are loved and accepted anyway.

    Salvation is a free GIFT, not something that can be earned by being “perfect.” This is the definition of God as unconditional love.

    Since the time of Christ, various religions have preached from the negative view that because people are sinful they need to be punished. Personally, I think this comes from the age old desire of men to control other men. Fear is a motivator that’s easier to implement than love, since it requires fewer sacrifices.

    The FLDS uses fear as a motivator, and their “priesthood” stands wrongly between the people and God. It’s all about power, not love, and it is corrupt, and sad.

  119. MaryKay: his own bias against people who engage in alternative lifestyles could effect his analysis of the situation.

    …………………..

    Pedophelia is not an “alternative lifestyle,” it is a crime.

  120. Anon, my sister,(or brother), I concur with you!

  121. etexas, yes, I’ve always had a problem with predestination, also. It is logically in opposition to free will, and, as you say, what’s the point? And do you want to worship a God who would create you knowing that you were damned to be tormented for all eternity? WTF, mate.

  122. Its just amazing. However while Utah isnt alone in scandal ( the east coast is full of it ala John Edwards) having the Church and the two main papers hide it is pretty shocking.
    …………………

    Actually, it was one of the gossip rags (National Enquirer?) that first exposed Edwards for being a cheater and a liar. Everybody makes fun of these papers (hey I only read them because they’re in the lunch room where I work!) but they do serve a purpose.

  123. Betty,
    I have a relative whose ex was “channeled” and found that the reason the marriage didn’t last was that they had been neanderthal mates and she was still working out her issues from when he was muy macho.
    The relative thought there was merit to it!!!! Biting my tongue left me bleeding for years.

  124. PS. Both have doctorates in physical sciences

  125. It is amazing what some well educated people believe in, HHG.

  126. I believe it, HHGB. Some of my craziest examples comes from a friend of mine who has a masters in microbiology and one in technical writing. She somehow manages to divide her brain into the mystical part and the scientific part. I don’t understand how that works; I have just the one part that I use for everything.

  127. On March 13, 2010 at 2:32 PM Judith asked some questions. Almost forgot to get back to them. Here you are, Judith…

    “Is it true that fundamentalist Mormons believe that men with 3 wives will become gods on their own planet in the after life?”

    The whole “3 wives” thing just drives me nuts! I have NEVER understood where/who that comes from. It gets pounced on ad infinitum in the media.

    It certainly is NOT true, at least not taught during my tenure. If Warren is “voicing” this nowadays, I’m not aware of it. Going back to early February in discussion #25, yehaaa6 confirmed he’d never heard of a 3-wife minimum until he saw it on the internet.

    That said, I know of only one instance where a man must have at least 3 wives: it is required before he can be ordained a High Priest Apostle. The last man to have that ordination was Rulon Timpson Jeffs who married two more wives a year after his first. A year after those marriages, he was ordained.

    RTJ was “the last man” by his own words. No High Priest Apostles have been ordained since those that John Y. Barlow set apart and ordained back in the ’40s. I do not believe Warren got that ordination at his father’s deathbed. According to my understanding, a man can’t be a “prophet” to the people without it.

    “Is it true that the wives of deserving husbands, soon to be gods, will become goddesses on their husband’s planet?”

    Yes, that is true.

    “I’ve also read the contradictory story that the children stay with the family in the afterlife. How can they both stay with the family,and also be ruling over their own planet?”

    I have heard and been taught this, too. It certainly is a conundrum isn’t it? But it never made sense to me either. And I’ve never heard a satisfactory explanation for it. All I can surmise is that it’s like some clan/geneology kind of thing for the sake of bloodlines, inheritance… gah!… what-ever!

  128. ““I’ve also read the contradictory story that the children stay with the family in the afterlife. How can they both stay with the family,and also be ruling over their own planet?”

    I have heard and been taught this, too. It certainly is a conundrum isn’t it? But it never made sense to me either. And I’ve never heard a satisfactory explanation for it. All I can surmise is that it’s like some clan/geneology kind of thing for the sake of bloodlines, inheritance… gah!… what-ever!”

    In FLDS fairy tale land, you evidently can have your cake and eat it too – regardless that your cake is 835 light years away.

  129. New article on gosanangelo about today’s trial. Hurley tried to get the forensic specialist who recovered the photos to say that he altered them. The specialist said all he did was put a title on the directory they were in to match standard forensic procedure. Talk about grasping at straws.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/mar/15/prosecutors-offer-forensic-support-of-photos-to/

  130. Thanks E. Texas,
    j

  131. Thanks Betty. Also looked at Brookes blog, she has gone off on an odd bent – complete red herrings-ville.

    My response:

    I would submit the latest scandal with Utah House Majority leader Kevin Garn as an example of “What people dont know wont hurt them”………..

    Until it sees the light of day.

    There is going to be huge repercussions for hiding these crimes – Even the LDS Church, the SLTRIB and the Des News are implicated in hiding the crimes from the public an proper LEA.

    Kevin Garn has resigned. Des News reporters have given lame excuses. The Church may be legally responsible – the victim reported it first, it wasnt a case of a man coming to repent.

    In other Trial news in Texas, Hurley is trying to tell the jury that a forensic lab renaming a file alters a photo of Jessop, but he forgot to think that Jessops actions to delete the photos was the ultimate act to alter said photos.

    I guess what Jessop wanted to convey as “not so” was proven as “so”.

    OOPS

  132. cha ching Pay those Texas lawyers

  133. Is it too late for me to go to law school?

  134. Hurley must have got his law license in a box of cracker jacks if he is going to practice law like that.

    Ahhh, to his credit, I’m thinking Willie made him do it.

    How will he face his peers in the future though?

  135. They say it’s never too late to go back to school.

  136. I see all these ads online that state that Obama wants you to.

  137. Hurley must have got his law license in a box of cracker jacks if he is going to practice law like that.

    Ahhh, to his credit, I’m thinking Willie made him do it.

    How will he face his peers in the future though?

    Awe, come on Stamp – have a little sympathy will ya?

    Not only is his client guilty as can be, but the evidence against him is rock solid.

    Yeah, he’s grasping at straws, but sometimes that’s all you can do.

  138. GrannyToad made me spew herbal tea on my keyboard.

  139. He’s getting paid handsomely to make a fool out of himself and his client – he deserves a couple digs.

    But I really am curious as to how much of his defense is Willie inspired or experience inspired.

    I find it hard to believe that he would bring up photos that were recovered because the perp deleted them, and then have the balls to say they “were altered”..

    It sounds like an FLDS fairy tale defense, JMHO.

  140. ““You can manipulate what people see, can’t you,” Hurley said.”

    Yeah, the computer forensic witness manipulated the deleted photos so they were recovered and the crime could be seen in Kodachrome color.

    OOOPS

  141. I sort of agree with both Ron and Stamp. Yeah, the guy has to defend his client. And yeah, it’s really dumb to suggest that changing the name of the file in order to make it comply with forensic procedures is somehow “altering” the photograph. The question as asked is one of those “when did you stop beating your wife?” questions. Of course, anyone with a computer and some software can “alter” a photograph. It’s like saying that because it’s possible to falsify evidence that all evidence is untrustworthy.

  142. It seems that these lines of questions just set the defense up to ridicule at closing statements.

    If I was the prosecutor I would bring up all these lame attempts.

    The FLDS have set themselves up to fail – hurley does have a tough job and no tools to do it with.

  143. Stamp

    Actually, I sense that this time Willie is pushing more of strategy.

    The flag tie, the motion for mistrial, and many other ways the case is being handled all reek of Willie.

  144. He’s getting paid handsomely to make a fool out of himself and his client – he deserves a couple digs.

    Stamp – come on now Hurley is actually doing a public service.

    He’s “bleeding the beast.”

  145. HA HA

    OOHH thats funny! And at their request too!

  146. Yeah, I think Hurley is just a stand in for Willie. I cannot imagine an attorney recommend his client come dressed with a flag tie. He must have cringed all day!

  147. Well, I’d be really curious to how Hurley is going to tie in sex with 15 year old girls and “truth, justice, and the American way.”

    Something tells me that one won’t fly.

  148. Yeah, I’m doubting the attorney recommended the flag tie. That’s a risky statement that likely backfired.

  149. It’s funny to me how the few ‘Accomplices and Accessory Association’ (AAA) members always decry the trampling of their ‘Freedom of Religion’, claims to Free Agency and practice of Polygamy for over 175 years but go mum in a Courtroom on these sterling points to their lamebrain arguments. I would love to have Willie R. Jessop testify on the witness stand that sexual assault of a minor girl is a ‘victimless’ crime. I wonder if the Thugman knows that most sexual assaults occur with a known assailant or the biggest argument against seeking a capital punishment for statutory rapists is that it would harm reporting and witnesses to appear against assailants.

  150. hey, don’t laugh, the defense they are presenting here worked when they were in Utah….

  151. If it’s good enough for Utah then it oughta be good enough for Texas

  152. “Well, I’d be really curious to how Hurley is going to tie in sex with 15 year old girls and “truth, justice, and the American way.”

    Something tells me that one won’t fly.”

    Indeed, and if Tony Alamo can run around the countryside with young bimbettes, why not the FLDS!?

    Oh, wait…

  153. CaptainOvary, have you seen my Tesla Coil?

  154. OK, Lost in Poligville (the guy whose wife is ex-FLDS and they moved to Short Creek into an abandoned UEP house) has a new post up. Be prepared to laugh your ass off, this guy is GOOD! After reading his last post I am convinced that MaryKay/40anddelusional/Concerned/I_am_a_Bigot is an FLDS member repenting from afar. Read the post and you will understand.

    http://peanutheadinpoligville.blogspot.com/2010/03/coffee.html

  155. Sadie

    OMG – I am so increasing my Alco holdings…

  156. No Betty I haven’t seen yours, should I? Is yours different?

  157. No Betty I haven’t seen yours, should I? Is yours different?

    Actually, I thought about this when I was younger as a pick up line – Hey baby, wanna see my Tesla coils?

  158. LOL!! 😯 Oh, Raaahhhn! LOL 😀

  159. Well, Ron, you either would have gotten slapped, or you would have picked up a science major. There are worse things.

  160. I was a science major and I never would have fallen for that line Ron.

  161. Damn!! Now I get it – no wonder I was such a loser in high school!

  162. Ron,
    Try a line next time on exchanging genetic material, that might work…
    Any updates on your Open Label Phase I Clinical Trial of Alexa for the management of NPD ?
    Thus far, Alexa indicates that the readers of this blog have a high educational level. That’s interesting.
    How does the educational level of readers of this blog compare to other blogs on the topic in question ?

  163. LOL! EXCELLENT question, CW!

  164. The question is not just simply how many people read a blog, the demographic information regarding the readership is important as well.
    I hope you like the name I have given your “experiment” Ron.

  165. Cat

    Well, it’s good and it’s bad. Apparently, it has picked up that we’re not dummies here. However, ranking wise it hasn’t helped yet. We seem to have stablized in the 663 thousand range, but that’s actually lower than where we started.

    I’m sure repeated visits over time by multiple users will make a difference. I check this site multiple times per day. I’m still a little puzzled over Huge McNut. Perhaps we need to generate more links to our site. Maybe we need to get more outside sites to pick up links to the posts on this site.

    Somewhere closer the the first, I’m going look at other factors that could be making a difference.

  166. Review the data regarding educational level.
    I found it to be interesting.

  167. I don’t know if I believe “Lost in Poligville” blog.

  168. Cat or Ron… where does Alexa get their demographic information for those graphs?

    In other words, how does Alexa know anything about me if I haven’t told them.

  169. E. Texas – the only way they can track demographics is by people answering those questions when installing the Alexa toolbar. Otherwise all they have are random stats of site visits.

    So, yeah, you’re right, unless you have the Alexa toolbar installed and have answered the demographic questions, they have no earthly idea what the demographics of any site would be.

  170. I like puns, so it might have worked for me. I used to carry a very, very odd wood screw in my pocket when I worked construction. I would pull it out, hold it up and say “wanna screw?”. It was an excellent filter; if they guy made an intelligent joke, he was still in the running. If he noticed that it was a very, very odd screw and made conversation about where I got it, he was still worth talking to. If he just said yes, then he was right out.

  171. East – when you install the bar, answer the demographic questionnaire.
    Betty,
    Did some men make a run for it when you showed them the screw?

  172. CW, my BS detector has not yet gone off. And it went off immediately on Megan’s blog; ‘her’ picture was a dead give away.

  173. No, CW, they didn’t. I’m just guessing that you have not spent a lot of time in your life with construction workers.

  174. Megan’s blog didn’t make sense from the get go.
    “She” did not have the common sense or intelligence to keep her story straight.
    I am not certain about “poligville” yet…whoever it is, they need to use spell check, so I am questioning their education… and Mormons, particularly fundie ones, don’t drink coffee….

  175. The most frequent joke was “I’ve been looking for some strange, but nothing quite THAT strange.”

  176. Nope, virtually no contact with construction workers, you are correct.

  177. The thing that tipped me off was Megan’s photo. It was professionally done, and yet it hid some of her features and made her unidentifiable and it was softened with dramatic lighting. What 18 year old can afford a portrait photographer to do her blog photo, and what family purchased portrait would want to obscure her features? Also she was very traditionally pretty, quite thin and with long blond hair; the stuff of fundamentalist fantasies.

  178. that photo looked nothing like the actual photo she posted of herself. in all likelihood, she downloaded that portrait photograph from somewhere on the internet, just like the fetal ultrasound.

  179. Betty

    You know with the regulars over here it’s really interesting. I mean you’ve got my Asperger’s girlfriend Rebeckah as well as various other folks that I sometimes wonder where they fall on that spectrum.

    So the question, “wanna screw” while holding an actual screw is an interesting thought experiment. Rebeckah would probably look at the screw, find it uninteresting, and then say “no thank you” without the subtlety of the joke ever registering.

    And Cat, I took your recommendation. I couldn’t find “Altered States of Consciousness” so I picked up Tart’s “States of Consciousness” book.

    I’m not too far along, but so far it’s a very interesting read.

  180. I only installed the status bar version of Alexa: no questions asked for that. It’s tiny and runs way down at the bottom of my browser window.

    Betty, I’ve been around construction workers; I can relate. Love the story!

    Cat, good practicing Mormons don’t drink coffee. Fundies absolutely DO!

  181. Really East? I thought there was a “word of wisdom” which says that you should not drink coffee. Doris Hanson said that coffee was not used in her group.

  182. Perhaps not in Doris’ group, but it is among flds folks. We were told the word of wisdom was given as a cautionary, not a commandment. In the “revelation” it says, “…not by commandment or constraint…”

    It’s very short; you can read it here:
    http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/89

  183. If LDS were adhering strictly to the word of wisdom they shouldn’t even be drinking their hot chocolate or Postum.

  184. “So the question, “wanna screw” while holding an actual screw is an interesting thought experiment. Rebeckah would probably look at the screw, find it uninteresting, and then say “no thank you” without the subtlety of the joke ever registering.”

    Well, I actually get word jokes pretty well but I’d probably not be terribly amused. (I feel threatened if a guy hits on me. I suspect it’s a combination of social anxiety from years of Asperger’s gaffs and bad experiences with guys in general.) 😀

  185. CW, I think the Lost in Poligville blog guy is the real thing, he knew too many of the details of what happened to Ruth to be a fake.

  186. That’s true, East — No Hot Drinks. Me, I like me my tea in the morning — yet another reason why I’ll never be Mormon. 😉

  187. I know that Emma Smith attempted to kill Joseph Smith by poisoning his coffee – so apparently he drank coffee….
    Sadie, I will keep an open mind on the poligville blog…and will continue to read it…

  188. I like a cup of coffee in the morning sitting in the hot tub watching the sunrise. Then it’s about four cups of herbal teas through the rest of my day.

  189. The first time I shopped at a Smiths I wondered what planet I’d landed on with all the no-caffeine stuff. Lotsa fun experiences.

  190. Wow!! i’ve been away from the blog awhile. It’s good to see a healthy exchange going on.

    Oh, BTW, a lot of fundy mormons drink coffee, and alcohol use is common in FLDS and CP. Back in the day, Rulon Jeffs and Alma Timpson were known heavy drinkers. Roy Johnson warned them to get it under control. It is suspected that in the early 80’s when Rulon was in an auto accident, it was due to drunk driving.
    It was not unusual to have Alma Timpson come to church drunk when I was young

  191. but isn’t the use of alcohol condemned by Mormon scripture ?

  192. Sounds like Rulon and Alma were living by Joseph and Brigham’s example, not their words. 😀

  193. And Catholic priests are supposed to be celibate. Sometimes what we say and what we do don’t match.

  194. CW said: After reading all this, I am glad I don’t live in Utah. It appears to be a patriarchal free for all. Anything goes.

    Seems the NEW motto for Utah should be…. Move to Utah…and bring yur youngun’s…’specially the girls!

  195. And then there’s the new Utah miscarriage law.

  196. Alcohol is just another one of those elements (I don’t mean scientific ones) in the WoW. It’s “wise” to avoid those elements, not “forbidden.” FLDS and LDS have interpreted it differently, that’s all. I believe I’d be correct in saying that the one thing that is verboten on both sides of the fence is tobacco use.

    Yes, Rulon and Alma (and others) drank alcohol.

    Now… I wonder how the WoW is dealt with at YFZ ?

  197. E.Texas, I thought I had read that the 3 wife minimum requirement was from Joseph Musser’s teachings. If Rulon Jeffs was ordained as a High Priest Apostle after he reached his 3 wife minimum, then isn’t that possible since J W Musser was considered the head dude of the priesthood council back then and Rulon was a member of the council of friends?

    Maybe I am wrong, but I have read some of Musser’s and J L Broadbent’s writings and I thought I remembered the “3’s a charm” sermon came from their “Truth Magazine” and Musser’s other works/teachings/sermons.

  198. what is the utah miscarriage law?

  199. Stamp said:
    Kevin Garn has resigned. Des News reporters have given lame excuses. The Church may be legally responsible – the victim reported it first, it wasnt a case of a man coming to repent.

    Stamp, one can only wish that child molesters in Utah and the churches that condone their actions are held accountable.

    But don’t hold your breath. This is Utah.

    Child Molesters Elevated!

  200. Betty said: And then there’s the new Utah miscarriage law.

    Yes!!! It’s disgraceful!!
    Utah just became the first state in the U.S. to criminalize miscarriage and punish women for having or seeking an illegal abortion. Utah’s “Criminal Miscarriage” law.

  201. From the same web site [Amplifyyourvoice.org]

    Utah is not a state known for its legislative sanity. This, after all, is a state that recently made headlines for proposing to honor gun manufacturers on Martin Luther King Day and for considering the elimination of 12th grade to cut back on education spending.

    Ya can’t make this stuff up!

  202. I didn’t need my senior year nor did my youngest daughter who was already taking college courses.

    But that other, criminalization of miscarriage is insane while they turn their backs on sexual assault of children.

  203. See what’s new on brooke’s blog.

  204. “what is the utah miscarriage law?”

    They want to be able to charge women for miscarriages if they decide they weren’t “careful enough” to maintain the pregnancy. It’s a very stupid law passed by very stupid men.

  205. utah miscarriage law (?) really.

    for real ?

    So was this enacted *before* the stupid-sperm-law or after?

    ….it’s been said many times, you just can’t make this sh*t up.

  206. so the utah miscarriage law would make it potentially criminal for a woman to do something such as jogging when she was ordered by a physician to be on bedrest?

  207. Hypocrites in religious organizations? I’m shocked – shocked I tell you.

  208. On the lighter side this morning:

  209. RIH
    aren’t you up early?

  210. I don’t like that law. It’s regulating pregnant women freedoms and I’m against nanny government.

  211. HHG

    The clock on this site appears to be on mountain time. So for me add 1 hour to the post time.

    One of my coffee rituals in the morning is to check what folks are saying over here. The bad thing is sometimes you guys are so damn funny I end up spewing coffee on my screen.

  212. Good morning, Pliggy

  213. mc1199 how does the new Utah motto “Child Brides Elevated” sound?

  214. “what is the utah miscarriage law?”

    They want to be able to charge women for miscarriages if they decide they weren’t “careful enough” to maintain the pregnancy. It’s a very stupid law passed by very stupid men.

    Rebeckah said this on March 15, 2010 at 11:30 PM
    _______________________

    omg – They are willing to regulate pregnancy but not go after the pedophiles? Unbelievable! Seems very sexist if you ask me.

  215. More on the Utah House Majority leader’s improprieties with a 15-year-old girl and how it was handled by “ecclesiastical leaders” in the LDS church.

    “Her position was that he had never made things right with her. She didn’t know if he had repented appropriately … so she was talking with me about it, and with our bishop. Our bishop contacted Salt Lake, and the response we got back was that they had looked into it, and on their end everything had been handled appropriately,” Knight said.

    Maher said she tried to talk to her bishop about her husband. In 2008 she wrote to LDS President Thomas S. Monson about Garn. She received a brief reply letter from church headquarters that the matter would be reviewed.

    LDS Church spokesman Scott Trotter said, “Legal requirements concerning priest-penitent privilege prevents the church from talking about the specifics of meetings between members and ecclesiastical leaders.” He said Maher’s 2008 letter was referred to local leaders, and said the church would review to see if any further action is appropriate.”

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700016851/Ex-Mahers-out-to-get-me-Garn.html

  216. Actually I know why that law was brought out. Apparently a couple years back a young woman paid a friend to give her a beat down in hopes of having a miscarriage. She initially pleaded guilty to something similar to attempted manslaughter but her mother had her vacate her guilty plea. The judge set aside her conviction because abortions are not illegal in Utah even though the young woman in question used an unorthodox method to try to achieve one.

  217. Well, the FLDS are making the argument “We are the REAL Mormons” on the Brooke Blog and I guess it will hit the fan in SLC – or not.

    What they dont realize is that no matter what they believe in, there is that pesky think called “the law” they must follow.

    If “In the world, monogamy is the monority” than its obvious they are simply living in the wrong country. There is nothing stopping them moving away, they are welcome to and many already have.

    Why be hugely mcfrustrated? Just move to one of those polygamy friendly countries and enjoy life – it sounds pretty simple.

  218. http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_14660754

    Garn paid off the girl 150,000

    There were so many laws broken the law is confused on where to begin.

    Will they file it under “Polygamy Eruption” and sweep it under the rug?

  219. Oh Stamp – always bringing up those pesky laws. The FLDS want their own laws, their own facts – hell – what they really want is their own alternate reality.

  220. So, is this Garn related to Jake Garn?

  221. BTW I havent ingested this “miscarriage law” yet, but my mind went right to where I think there are violations.

    Y’know, those poor fumarase kids born in Shortcreek.

    while the law was perhaps inspired by some publically known tragedies, the tragedy is, that there is a gated health clinic in hildale and the law isnt montiering WTF goes on behind the walls.

    Let the experiments run!

  222. Can anyone obtain treatment at the Hildate clinic?

  223. Ron

    “Oh Stamp – always bringing up those pesky laws. The FLDS want their own laws, their own facts – hell – what they really want is their own alternate reality.”

    They are always welcome to move to a place that would embrace that, like say Guyana? Its been done before.

    But they best move fast, all the good cult camps are being taken up!

    IRT Kevin Garn, I havent found the connection with Jake yet but dont think he is a son.

  224. Any one in good stead with FLDS can.

  225. For Mike Emack & Brooke Adams, add to the list: deer do it.

  226. Swissiemom

    It was funded with State funds, the AAAP site details it pretty well.

    I think you would be treated if you were in a bad accident right in front of it, otherwise, if you arent “current” FLDS, you would likely be sent down the road.

    Shurtleff ought to be looking into this too.

  227. Granny Toad

    LMAO

    Why of course! And we have 75 other excuses too!

    And Kevin Garn does it!

  228. Utah citizens are saying Shurtleff needs to be looking into several things, but he and Orrin still have the BCS to worry about these days.

    So much college football coming soon and so little time.

    Where was the outrage?
    Published: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:08 a.m. MDT

    What’s wrong with this picture? The front-page photo published March 12 shows 11 lawmakers and staffers standing and applauding House Majority Leader Kevin Garn after he publicly admitted to an illegal nude hot-tubbing incident with a teenage girl. Where was the shock? Where was the outrage? Where was law enforcement?

    And our elected “leaders” (I use the term loosely) wonder why Utahns are demanding ethics in government? Ethics begins with morals. When a group of elected officials stand and applaud a man who admits to paying $150,000 in hush money to keep an illegal act secret, it is time for the whole bunch of them to be turned out. Everyone in the state should look at that photo before voting this coming year and see if “their” state representative is among the unlucky few who had their photo taken in this egregious performance.

    Let’s hope our attorney general is as interested in this incident as he is in the BCS.

    Ennis Gibbs
    Woodland

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700016796/Where-was-the-outrage.html

  229. Lady Sadie,
    Please add Kevin Garn does it to your list.
    Thanks

  230. Utah motto – “Political Criminals Elevated”.

    Now Shurtleff is helping to fight the public disclosure of the January DUI arrest record of the Senate Majority leader Sheldon Killpack (who resigned). Remember, Kevin Garn was the House Majority leader (who resigned Saturday).

    Where do they get these guys? And why does Utah protect these bretheren?

    “These are the two records the state is fighting to keep secret in the Killpack case. According to some reports, the arrest record is four pages long, and the tape lasts for about three hours.

    Official secrecy always leads to speculations. Could that three-hour tape contain information that shows troopers deliberating over how to handle a high-profile suspect? Does the tape reveal the identities of other people in the car, including other lawmakers or well-known lobbyists? Does it reveal information as to who was at the bar where Killpack had been drinking?”

    Read the entire editorial here:
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700016800/Release-Killpack-records.html

  231. The way the miscarriage law is worded, it is so loosely defined that you could charge a woman for just about anything that could cause a miscarriage. There is no definition of the burden of proof. Yes, I think the jogging example would qualify. The word “knowingly” is in there, so to me, if a doctor says that drinking is harmful to the fetus and you have one glass of wine, your husband could turn you in for attempting an illegal abortion….I rather suspect it will get shot down in court.

  232. It would be much simpler for the Utah teams to lobby to join a BCS conference. But I guess it is easier to complain about the $ they lose from football receipts than to solve real problems. Oh, and to waste our $ performing their investigation.

    And while we are on the sports note, I hope they get conclude the current trial in TX soon. The real March Madness is about to start!

  233. I think we should have a poll on a new Utah motto.

    Last year it became “Life Elevated”

    Now we have some new suggestions:
    “Child Molesters Elevated”
    “Child Brides Elevated”
    “Political Criminals Elevated”

    Another one just came to me “Deer Elevated” and I have thrown this one out in the past “Life FUBAR”.

    Let’s have some fun on this day between the Ides of March and St. Patrick’s day.

    Give us your suggestions for a new motto for Utah.

  234. Aren’t they having the Shannon Price deposition today on the “what she said that he said that she said” Lamont Barlow matter?

    We should name today the “Shannon Price Day” in her honor.

  235. Here ya go Anon @8:12 – new Utah motto:

    “Never too young to be screwed”

  236. Life FUBAR gets my vote.

  237. Cannot wait till the Shannon Price deposition. She said that he said that she said that the medical professional fabricated medical records… and how would any of them know that, since they are not involved in the creation of the records to start with …?

  238. Betty, you make some very valid points RE the new Utah miscarriage law.

    But you need to keep in mind that it is a Utah law. They rarely make sense and are selectively prosecuted.

    Oh yeah, this is a new law against women – that one might be prosecuted.

    “Men Elevated”

  239. The “monogamy is a minority” reminds me of the rationale for slavery – societies that ban slavery are a minority historically.

  240. The statement “monogamy is a minority” is rather misleading. Yes, worldwide more cultures permit polygamy; however, even in countries that allow it, it is rarely practiced and is clearly a minority position.

    I guess the really relevant question is “so what?”

  241. That’s a sample of what you can get in a theocratic state like Utah.

  242. Utah’s new Motto:

    “We dont smoke drugs, we just act like we do!”

  243. Well Ron, there are more societies which permit polygyny specifically, however, polyandry is usually punishable by death – unless you are in the Himalayas.

  244. I just caught up on the latest episode of “Big Love,” and the Sissy Spacek character expressed my opinion exactly:

    “Your religion is bullsh*t! It’s just an excuse for f*cking around!”

  245. Ron, I posted exactly that, with more information and she has failed to release it from moderation. Don’t confuse us with the facts!

    “I do not believe that polygamy is more common worldwide than monogamy, in fact I think the opposite is true. That is an oft repeated statement amongst polygamists that lacks a source to prove it. Although a majority of countries allow polygamy or do not criminalize it, the practice of polygamy has waned worldwide considerably. India probably has the highest percentage of polygamy of any country in the world and even there, it is not the majority, but comes in at around 10%. Even in Islamic countries where polygamy is legal and accepted, it is practiced at a rate of less than 10% and some Islamic countries do not allow it by law. This is probably mostly because of the cost; in many countries where it is legal, the husband must prove that he has adequate income to support a second family. So, I would not believe this statement about the prevalence of polygamy without some very convincing source documentation.”

    Do you think it’s the statement about proving that he can afford a second family that threw her off my post????? It’s still “awaiting moderation” even though many posts after it have been published.

  246. I’m still in season 1, but even though they try to be very sympathetic to the Hendrickson family, I’ve seen plenty of reasons to say no to polygamy in that show. I was very upset by the episode in which Barb returns the young girl who is about to be married to the prophet to his first wife because Barb is afraid of exposure!

  247. Betty,
    Over 40% of the marriages in some African countries are polygynous. I will find the articles.

  248. Betty

    In season one they are just putting their toes in the water.

    I saw the last episode of season 4, laughed pretty hard many times!

    They rang the bell!

  249. Betty – See page 294 of this document. Polygyny is most common in West Africa, namely Senegal and Ghana.http://www.ide.go.jp/English/Publish/Periodicals/De/pdf/97_03_04.pdf

  250. Sorry here is the link : see page 294
    http://www.ide.go.jp/English/Publish/Periodicals/De/pdf/97_03_04.pdf

  251. You know Betty, I’ve had the same thing happen to me.

    For me, I write it off as me being way too dismissive of the comments of some of the idiots that comment on her blog. What you posted, however, seemed perfectly benign.

    Brooke does seem to be lately trying to make things that are not news worthy into news items by creating a bunch of faux controversy about the item.

    Then again, maybe you guys are right about Brooke. I’m certainly beginning to have my doubts.

  252. “17. In other words, those who violate nineteenth century mores in the name of religion lack the protection now afforded those who do the same thing in the name of choice, personal freedom, or lifestyle.”

    So this appears to be the “Gays and Swingers Do It Defense” then?

    No, gays and swingers dont molest children. Polygamy is illegal for a reason, and the FLDS are showing us why.

  253. Also, I don’t think they see the difference between a lifestyle that is based completely on consent and freedom of choice and one which mandates that men get tons of sex and attention and women get very little or they are damned. It is a very, very hateful lie. It’s saying “Sinners can get away with it, why can’t we?”, when in fact the “it” is not at all the same thing, even without considering the molestation of children! It is not free choice and consent for all or there would be women with multiple husbands !

  254. CW, it still does not make my statement untrue. Last I checked 40% is not a majority even in those countries, let alone the world.

    I think my statistics about India are actually based on religion, and I got that mixed up in my head when I was writing. I think Hinduism has about a 12% rate and Islam has a rate of about 8%, worldwide. Hardly a majority, there, either.

    I’m wondering if she’s held back my comment to do research on worldwide numbers of polygamists. Naaaah.

  255. And I’m getting tired of doing her research for free.

  256. Yes, I agree with you Betty, that 40% is not a majority – but the rates of polygynous marriages in Africa are almost 50%. You said India was highest at 10% – it isn’t. African countries have the highest rates of polygyny, almost 50% in West Africa

  257. Ron

    “Then again, maybe you guys are right about Brooke. I’m certainly beginning to have my doubts”

    She takes turns irritating the PPPP too – as you’ve seen Bill say.

    Still, in the big picture, she hasnt really IMHO taken the gloves off.

    I mean its apparent now to even the strongest proponent they have been abusing children… yet they are often given a pass Tony Alamo didnt enjoy. Like all these red herring side trails. The hammer is coming down and she misses that, but look out, if there is a side story to divert our attention, now is the time!

    I’m thankful Texas is serious about it.

    And that list and affidavit? I find it an absolute HOOT. Only a cult could imagine it would have any effect in a court of law. Brooke serves them by posting it, but it backfires, because it is so ridiculous!

  258. CW

    “Yes, I agree with you Betty, that 40% is not a majority – but the rates of polygynous marriages in Africa are almost 50%. You said India was highest at 10% – it isn’t. African countries have the highest rates of polygyny, almost 50% in West Africa”

    ==============

    I guess that means the FLDS are trying to be more like West Africans?

    Or maybe thats the place they should move to! Think of all the freedoms and happiness they would enjoy there!

  259. Read the article, Stamp. Women are compelled to be in polygynous marriages because they have no rights to property ownership.
    They “marry” a man in order to be one of the workers on his farm.
    In short, they are compelled to “marry” their employers.

  260. I explained the India thing; I think my numbers were actually based on religion, not country. But I’m not going to spend today doing research for Brooke. I’ve got a project I’m working on in preparation for a commission. If you feel so inspired, knock yourself out.

  261. Nothing like getting screwed on the job.

  262. No, gays and swingers dont molest children. Polygamy is illegal for a reason, and the FLDS are showing us why.
    ====================================================
    Actually gays and swingers can molest children. I really hate it when people try to restrict women rights and then tell them it’s for their own protection. Reminds me sort of that miscarriage law Utah has.

  263. Stamp –

    The interesting part for me is that guy live in Fort Bend County, Texas. That’s right next door to Harris County where I live.

    It’s interesting since parts of the City of Houston actually are in Fort Bend County.

    Anyway, I just found that interesting.

  264. No Betty, I’m not going to spend my day doing research for her.
    Enjoy your project!

  265. Al

    So are you saying that the FLDS want the same rights that gays and swingers who molest children have?

    Last I checked, they arrest those people as fast as they find them too.

  266. Alinusara,

    FU,

    Betty

  267. I thought they arrested some members of the Flds?

  268. Yes, I agree with you Betty, that 40% is not a majority – but the rates of polygynous marriages in Africa are almost 50%. You said India was highest at 10% – it isn’t. African countries have the highest rates of polygyny, almost 50% in West Africa

    ……………….

    Was China even considered in this claim that monogamy is in the minority? At over 1 billion people, it has the highest population on the planet and polygamy is illegal.

    Also, let’s note that if they are going to use African countries to bolster their claims about polygamy, then you can point out that it certainly isn’t working economically, since it seems to go hand in hand with third world poverty.

  269. Ron

    Wonder how much they paid him to write that crap? Guess if they are waving money around they will find someone eventually.

    They snared some attorneys that way.

  270. Al

    You dont think they arrest gay or straight child molesters wandering around your neighborhood?

    Check the sex offender registry for your area, you may be surprised.

  271. Knock yourself out Al.

    http://www.city-data.com/so/so-Jackson-Tennessee.html

  272. “Or maybe thats the place they should move to! Think of all the freedoms and happiness they would enjoy there!”

    Too many offspring of Cain there, I think. 😉

    I read that article about the 4 women marrying their husband on the same day. The one thing I thought of it was, in this case there’s a reason for it — they’re ensuring their children get a decent shot at life in a poverty stricken part of the world. I believe they did choose “freely” to marry this man but I also believe that if they had the same opportunities from other men they’d have chosen monogamy. I could be wrong, of course.

    Oh, and Betty? Your post did get through moderation. I just read it there a bit ago. I guess it just took a little while..

  273. Alin,”I really hate it when people try to restrict women rights and tell them it’s for their own protection”.
    ______

    How do you feel about adult FLDS Priesthood men that are convicted of sexually assaulting children? Are those the women who’s rights you are referring to Alin?

    You’re a misogynistic true believer that Priesthood men are above secular laws and righteous in conducting rape, incest and other sexual abuses. Warren Steed Jeffs is a convicted felon as an accomplice to such perversions.

    Haven’t FLDS Priesthood men been convicted of sex crimes in Arizona, Utah and Texas?

  274. Anonymous 10:18 –
    I am totally in agreement with you.
    While polygyny is common in Africa, it should be noted that it
    is not because women favor it. They are not marrying for love, they “marry” as a business proposition. That’s it.
    It is not love that is the motivating force.
    Polygyny is associated with poverty, and if you read the article, it is also associated with high rates of marital infidelity.
    Please don’t misunderstand – my concern is solely about correct statistics, I am in no way a polygyny apologist.

  275. Rebeckah,
    I think it’s terrible when a woman is compelled to marry someone solely for the reason that they wish to guarantee their survival…
    and that is exactly what goes on in many African countries, because women are not educated, nor can they hold a job which does not entail “marrying” their employer.

  276. Al

    ” I really hate it when people try to restrict women rights and then tell them it’s for their own protection.”

    Yeah, do you hate it that FLDS children are denied their right to grow up, and choose their own husband too, or should they just take what the Priesthoodlums tell them?

    The FLDS are the ones restricting womens and childrens rights DUDE, grow a clue!

  277. “Actually gays and swingers can molest children.”

    Numerically speaking, heterosexuals are most likely to molest children and commit sexual crimes. I wonder if anyone has done any research on the numbers of sexual predators in authoritarian, patriarchal religions versus mainstream society? Those numbers would probably be very enlightening.

    “I really hate it when people try to restrict women rights and then tell them it’s for their own protection.”

    I know you really don’t want to acknowledge this but the problem with the FLDS is because of their practice in “marrying” and impregnating minor girls. They have every right to be protected from this abuse. Get used to it.

  278. Alin: I really hate it when people try to restrict women rights and then tell them it’s for their own protection

    ……………………..

    You mean like when Warren Jeffs tells girls and women who they will marry, instead of them choosing for themselve? Or like when Warren kicks a man out of the FLDS and his wife is reassigned to a new husband and has no choice in the matter? How about when an FLDS school girl is told she can’t go to college because she has to get married to some man old enough to be her father and start pumping out babies.

    Alin, you don’t truly believe in women’s freedom. A woman’s true freedom does not come with the axe of coersion by damnation and expulsion hanging over her head.

  279. I hope they give Jessop an extra 10 years for Alinusara’s lame ass post.

    They still dont get it!

  280. Rebeckah is correct, heterosexual child abusers far outnumber homosexual child abusers. Polygynous family structure has been described as a risk factor for incest in medical studies.
    see the following article :
    https://secure.oldhamcounty.com/forumonpublicpolicy/archive06/bennion.pdf

  281. Al wants the little girls errr the cult leaders to have the freedom to treat these children like little sex slaves.

    Whassa matter Al, they wont let you in?

  282. CW,
    I think it is just terrible when women marry any Priesthood men because her religious tenets demand her capitulation to insure her spiritual exaltation and avoid total destruction.

    If this isn’t manifest ‘coercion and force’ by FLDS Priesthood men then Joseph Smith missed his calling as a prophet.

  283. According to the motion filed by Emack,, Walsh states free agency within fundementnalist belief,,, Oh really??

    Free Agency for whom? the MEN??? Cause little children certainly don’t get that choice.

  284. Amen, CaJim, this is the same repressive “model” of marriage that one sees in African polygyny.
    African Model : polygyny or starvation
    FLDS : polygyny or damnation

  285. Rebeckah

    ““Actually gays and swingers can molest children.”

    Numerically speaking, heterosexuals are most likely to molest children and commit sexual crimes. ”

    ———————–

    I reckon its much a matter of percentages, since only 10% of the poulation is gay, then 10% of child molesters might then also be gay.

    I’m sure it would be hard to parse scientifically, with data like bisexuality being thrown in.

    I have no doubt that cult leaders, esp in polygamist cults, are high on the list though.

  286. DeputyDog,
    Children have the freedom to choose between Mommy and Daddy or being shunned, having love and emotional security or becoming a ‘Lost Child’ and being obedient or living from afar. Admittedly those are demonic choices but the Priesthood and Prophet never said that FLDS life would be a bowl of cherries.

  287. Hazzbins posted a GREAT response to Brooke’s latest post.

  288. Anon at 10:18, I doubt very seriously that statistics or research of any kind was involved in that claim by a fundamentalist polygamist. They need to believe that God, Jesus and the majority of the world is with them and it’s just the devil and the Baptists on the other side.

  289. Anon @ 10:42 agreed Hazzbins nailed it.

    Here’s the comment if you want to avoid the rest of the discussion.

  290. can someone post a link to Hazzbins’s response to Brooke ?

  291. Utah’s new Motto:

    “We dont smoke drugs, we just act like we do!”

    That’s a good one Stamp.

  292. I doubt very seriously that statistics or research of any kind was involved in that claim by a fundamentalist polygamist.

    Facts? They don’t need facts when they can just invent their own.

  293. Not all religious practices should be tolerated in the United States… so says SCOTUS, and we all should concur.
    Sharia law dictates that a husband must beat his disobedient wife to discipline her.
    Should we legalize wife beating to accommodate men of the Islamic faith? Are we violating their rights if we do not tolerate wife beating ?
    Sharia law requires the execution of a woman who has committed adultery.
    Should we legalize this as well to accommodate the beliefs of Islamic men ?

  294. http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2010/03/monogamy-the-minority-lifestyle/comment-page-1/#comment-46818

    Hazzbins reply as have others.

  295. And which VERSION of sharia law should we back? There’s that to consider. Any one who speaks out against Thomas Jefferson as an American should have to spend two weeks studying the divisions of Islam and their effects on the history of various nations.

  296. CW I read some of that – “Bush” behavior indeed.

    If the FLDS start their own planet I reckon it would be more like Nigeria than America.

    Just sayin.

  297. I’m procrastinating doing math and drawing a layout of little boxes. Better get away from the computer before this afternoon totally disappears.

  298. Oh that affy davits argument:

    “We’ve been breaking laws since 1830 – so we’re Grandfathered in”

    UMMMM— NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  299. I’m amused by the comment that calls the affadavit “evidence”.

    Yes, I’m still procrastinating, but I did do the math already.

  300. From the best I can tell that affidavit is some attempt to try to say that it’s not bigamy since they’re not marriages and are some sort of religious ritual.

    That’s an interesting argument but the other facts don’t support it. For instance they call themselves “wives” and “husbands.”

    Anyway, it would be interesting if any of you locals could get the whole filing rather than just that affidavit.

  301. 1. “FLDS and LDS worship services and rituals are very similar in format. Indeed, they are closer to each other in almost all respects than either of them is to the practices of any other non-Mormon religion, denomination, or sect.”

    >>> There are similarities and thats about it. The leadership culture has been changed, FLDS is one man rule, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    ========
    2. “The FLDS reluctance to change and the LDS embrace of mainstream American society is a principal explanation of the differences that do exist between the FLDS and the LDS.”

    >>> The FLDS have changed and morphed more than the LDS Church has. Joe Smith never played musical chairs with families. And copying Smith’s misbehaviors doesnt give the FLDS a leg up in heaven – but is rather a cause for concern.

    ========

    3. “While the LDS Church officially abandoned the practice of polygamy in 1890, it remains a crucial part of the LDS theological worldview even today.”

    >>> As in “Practice Polygamy, be summarily excommunicated”

    =================

    4. “By faithfully fulfilling the commandments from the Lord to Joseph Smith, the FLDS believe that their Church is the true continuation of Joseph Smith’s prophetic authority and divine mandate.”

    >>> Where does Joe say to molest children? I guess I missed that part. NOT MANDATED!

    ==============

    5. “They also believe that God is celestially married to a plurality of heavenly mothers. In other words, God himself is a polygamist.”

    >>> Prove it. You can believe you will ride a space ship hiding behind a comet too, but it wont stand up in conversation at the street corner. Brian Mitchell had his beliefs, Heavens gate had theirs too. What you NEED to believe in is the LAW!

    ============

    6. “If the FLDS do not engage in celestial marriage, they believe that they will have failed to follow the divine paradigm and will therefore not enjoy the fullness of heavenly blessings in the afterlife.”

    >>> So move to West Africa and knock yourself out. Practicing those crazy beliefs is illegal in the United States of America.

    ==============

    7. “The FLDS use of the word “marriage” in regards to a man and woman joined together under priesthood authority is a theological construct. The FLDS do not use the term “marriage” in a legal sense as defined by Texas law.”

    >>> They purport to be married, your PHD didnt give you a law degree did it? “BIGAMY” look it up holmes!

    ==================

    8. “However, this FLDS religious ceremony is no more intended to create a lawful and legal marriage under Texas law than the Roman Catholic Church intends to create such a legally defined union when a woman undergoes a wedding ceremony to Christ when she enters consecrated life to become a nun.”

    >>> Nuns never hurt anybody. You can marry the Sun and the moon, but not little girls!

    ==================

    9. “The FLDS do not desire or seek any government recognition or sanction for celestial marriage.”

    >>> You might get sanctioned if you act out on your pretend fairy tales, allright, regardless if you seeked it or not.

    ================

    10. “In the FLDS worldview, all human beings must be sealed into God’s eternal family in order to enter the highest degree of celestial living in the afterlife”

    >>> Explain to the class how your math doesn’t add up, as the male / female birth ratio is 50-50, but Warren has over 80 wives. Where are the 80 men without one wife? Is it FLDS SOL time?

    Do these 80 men get sealed to themselves, in a weird way that has yet to be unrevealed?

  302. #1 is an argument that has no particular interest out side of Utah. Why should a Texas court care that the FLDS are similar to the LDS? I mean, really? What difference does that make to whether or not a crime has been committed?

  303. Nuns never hurt anybody

    I don’t know Stamp – the knuckles of numerous Catholic school children may testify differently.

  304. my husband’s knuckles definantly would…

  305. Ron

    “Nuns never hurt anybody

    I don’t know Stamp – the knuckles of numerous Catholic school children may testify differently.”

    LMAO

    Pesky kids, I bet the nuns would take corporal punishment up a notch if allowed.

    I’m no Catholic, and think that many things they do are strange, but I havent seen them as a religion promoting a lifestyle harmful to children.

    Recurring molestation charges pester them though, too, and I think its cost them dearly.

    There is something especially heinous about religious leaders taking advantage of children, they need to be sent a big message.

  306. Interesting history with this guy, I’d like to know more

    “William John Walsh” + flds

  307. stamp…all i know about Walsh is that he’s the one that testified that no sex would have occured in the bed in the temple at the ranch (archived SLT article)

  308. “And then Walsh offered up an entirely different explanation for the beds-in-the-temple story.

    Although he has never been inside the FLDS temple, Walsh said it was likely set up like an LDS Church temple.

    LDS Church temples, he said, typically have several beds available in case people doing temple work — marriage ceremonies, baptisms for the death — become faint or feel ill.

    And so, Walsh knows not why, but it cant be for sex, regarless of the Frankenstien -like appearance it has, with the overlooking pulpit, and the kneeling bench, and those neat side rails to keep escaping children from escaping.

  309. He testified for them in the case of the mothers wanting their children returned. In his testimony, he said he knew of families with wives as young as 13 but said that under aged marriage was not a matter of belief nor was it common.

  310. I have to question any scholar who would submit that affadavit without any references to studies or documents of the church, etc. Nothing but his opinion after 18 years of ‘study’.

  311. “I’ve also read the contradictory story that the children stay with the family in the afterlife. How can they both stay with the family,and also be ruling over their own planet?”

    I’ve wondered about that, too, but I guess, as gods and goddesses, intergalactic travel for family get-togethers will be a cinch.

  312. LOL, ellie. It sure beats driving 12 hours down I95 with the kids in the car!

  313. FLDS Priesthood supporters want to present their prideful 175+Years of outlaw practices it shows me why they no longer attempt to evangelize their form Latter-Day Saintness. Obviously, the Gentiles have heard the gospel and, over many generations, still view it as an abomination and barbaric practice. Duh!

  314. any update from the trial?

  315. here is an update from San Angelo, Cat.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/mar/16/letters-from-jessop-to-flds-leader-read-in-court/

  316. They often make minor adjustments to the same article and leave the comments up.

  317. Oh good find, missed that one!

  318. Looks like they are doing a pretty good job of proving that he lived on the ranch, and that his young bride lived with his household! So much for that “it happened outside of Texas” idea!

  319. Yeah, they figured the crime occured about the 20th, yet during a meeting on the 24th, he was “present – HERE!”

    And what evidence does the defense have that they WERENT there?

    Sadly lacking I’m afraid. No party pics down in old Mexico on a cruise or nuthin’.

  320. Get ready for your disgust meters to go way off the charts –

    Here’s a quote from the Gosanangelo article:

    Another letter informed the prophet that the girl he married had graduated eighth grade, and he asked that she stay at home to help around the house.

  321. who asked that she stay behind and clean the house?
    the prophet, or her husband ?

  322. Cat

    The way I read that it was Leroy asking Warren to let her stay at home since she’d just graduated 8th grade

  323. “Every time I look and see the temple I feel a surge go through me,” read one of the letters from Jessop to then-FLDS prophet and leader Warren Jeffs.”

    >>> That wasnt lightning, was it?
    =====================

    “Another letter informed the prophet that the girl he married had graduated eighth grade, and he asked that she stay at home to help around the house.”

    >>> Guess her school days were over. Go from eighth grade to learning wifely chores, like bearing children!

  324. CW: I assume her husband asked that the stay behind and help around the house, since he was writing the letters.

    Fifteen is a bit late to be just graduating eighth grade, so maybe like she was struggling in school. And instead of seeing that she received extra help to get a good education, she was made to stay home. How sad!

  325. A point to be highlighted about the supposed 8th. Grade education is two FLDS girls who left the sect, namely Fawn Broadbent and Fawn Holm, and said to have completed their 8th. Grade educations but tested at a 6th. Grade level of education and both needed extensive tutoring.

  326. So much for No Child Left Behind.

  327. Is the trial going on today?? Ive not heard anything

  328. DD

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/mar/16/letters-from-jessop-to-flds-leader-read-in-court/

  329. OBTW

    You wont hear much from Brooke, she’s playing email tag with Willie, handling his big red herring!

  330. I think RIH is correct – the only moot point of the affidavit is how it will fly legally and on that point is their attempt to equate celestial marriage as nothing more than a religious ceremony that has no similarity to “gentile” marriages.

    Since it involves living together, procreating together, sharing economic resources together, sharing names, calling each other wife and husband, requiring a dissolution of the relationship by a religious authority and societal custody lawsuits, it seems a pretty weak legal argument

  331. HHG

    It is pretty weak, pretty lame, just no excuse. They need to step into the reality zone, get through that stargate.

    Courts dont humor Sci-Fi scripts.

  332. Thanks Ron and Ellie, that is what I thought.
    Quite an achievement, she finished the 8th grade by age 15….

  333. I wonder if they give out “FLDS HOME-SCHOOL GRADJUMACATION CARDS” that look like those marriage records on the back side of recipe cards.

    Cornbread on one side, time and eternity on t’other. If they can talk on a cell phone and write a grocery list, what else do they need?

  334. Whatcha wanna bet her dad didn’t read to her when she was little?

    Studies show that girls whose fathers read aloud to them from a young age have much greater academic success than girls who don’t.

  335. FLDS Texas Admin : I propose a link on the right hand tool bar for Nancy Mereska’s blog, Stop Polygamy in Canada :

    http://stoppolygamyincanada.wordpress.com/

  336. Done

  337. Whatcha wanna bet her dad didn’t read to her when she was little?

    Studies show that girls whose fathers read aloud to them from a young age have much greater academic success than girls who don’t.
    ……………………….

    Hmmm. Well my kids’ father didn’t read much to them when they were little. But I did. Every night.

    College grads now, both of them, with good jobs (phew!)

  338. Anon @ 5:18

    Dude, I really applaud you. Raising kids is not easy and especially not easy when you’re what I call the “third wheel.”

    So you have a lot of reason to “pat yourself on the back.” Now, having said that, just make sure that you don’t break your arm “patting yourself on the back.” 🙂

  339. Anon @5:18

    I read your post as being a step father in the situation. I suspect you may have been the natural mother and if you are please disregard my last post.

  340. Here is a little warning for those that want to try those infamous African cultural delights –

    DONT

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/12/devotees-florida-man-sickened-drinking-mucus-giant-african-snail/

  341. OBTW

    You wont hear much from Brooke, she’s playing email tag with Willie, handling his big red herring!

    Stamp said this on March 16, 2010 at 3:08 PM

    Excuse me? Brooke is busy today handling Willie’s Willie?

  342. What is the Texas law regarding the age when a teenager can quit school? Every state I have lived in had 16 as the minimum age before a child could “drop out” of school. This girl (sexual assault victim, child bride and new hausfrau) was only 15.

  343. Rattle I bet her father read aloud to her as a child. But what he read was probably just FLDS doctrine (indoctrination) sermons convincing her that if she didn’t marry a priesthood man at a ripe YOUNG age, become obedient and submissive to him and start having babies ASAP, she was damned to hell for all eternity.

  344. “If the FLDS start their own planet I reckon it would be more like Nigeria than America.

    Just sayin.”

    Elizabeth Moon wrote a series where there was a planet of religious fundamentalist polygamists. They attacked passing starcraft, killed the men and older women and cut the tongues out of the younger women and turned them into sex slaves on their planet because the inbreeding was damaging the bloodline. Oh, and they lied to everyone about it — their “wives” and so on and so forth. One interesting thing on her imaginary planet was that the wives didn’t keep their names. When they married they were basically given a numerical name like Prima, Secundus, Tertia, and so on. After the events at the YFZ I rather wondered if Elizabeth Moon had any first hand knowledge of the FLDS to draw on with that story.

  345. do we have any representatives attending the trial ?

  346. i wasn’t there yesterday or today ans was wondering the same thing.

  347. wee willie better get home so he can answer his census about his wives and children.

  348. report is that defense rested, closing arguments in the morning.

  349. wee willie better get home so he can answer his census about his wives and children.
    —–

    I did my census last night. There’s no way in #@!! that they can get all those people on 1 form. And, I brought this up months back, will they even fill them out and will they TRUTHFULLY include everyone? And, didn’t Willie [or was it Merril] once say that YFZ is just one big household? Can’t ya see some poor census worker trying to go door to door there [if they fail to mail them in]. Knock knock….answer them nothing!

  350. Excuse me? Brooke is busy today handling Willie’s Willie?

    Oh geez, that’s simply wrong so many levels…

  351. Genealogists 70 or 90 years from now will need that census info!

  352. WOW!! already closing arguments? That was fast–proudTexan!!

    Yep–I can just imagine flds filling out the census form. I sorta doubt they will. I feel sorry for the poor census person having to go to the yfzippers ranch and try to get in. We need to keep that person in our thoughts and prayers.

  353. I’m impatiently waiting to see grandpa on the 1940 later this year. Aaaannnnnd many moooooooore

  354. Jobo they’d better bring a carload.

  355. So Marykay made such a “to do” about Dr. Beall and he never materialized in the trial.

    And where was the defense put on by these high priced FLDS attorneys?

    Did they just go to lunch and never come back to present the defense? Did they say ANYTHING on the child molester’s behalf?

  356. Excuse me? Brooke is busy today handling Willie’s Willie?

    Oh geez, that’s simply wrong so many levels…

    Ron in Houston said this on March 16, 2010 at 9:25 PM

    Ron, what’s so wrong with that? Aren’t you by now familiar with Willie and his Willieisms?

  357. beall might be used as a punishment witness. i think he was in raymond’s case. i heard the q&a about him on friday after raymond was convicted on thursday night.

  358. http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/signedemackmotion.pdf

    now i see why emack did his plea thing. they needed him to be the one to admit to the spiritual marriage so they could go ahead and challenge the bigamy law. he admits in the above document he was “spiritually married” to ruleen johnson.

  359. The FLDS BS just never ends!

  360. gosanangelo: “The prosecution and defense rested their cases Tuesday in the trial of Merril Leroy Jessop.”

  361. On spiritual marriage is just a religious ceremony and not a “marriage”…

    If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck…….

  362. ProudTexan,

    Thanks for noting the PDF/Emack link. Legal-smack-talk is quite amusing to me, things like:

    *The State’s application of this statute in this case raises, at its threshold, an issue of statutory construction, centered specifically on the meaning of the term “married”.*

    Well…buh-guh…duh. The charge is Bigamy — one might suppose ‘at its threshold’ the topic is about marriage.

    *Accordingly, Defendant respectfully submits that, as a matter of law, he is not cohabitating under the appearance of a “marriage” as defined in the Texas Constitution, and his conduct does not fall within the bigamy statute he is charged with violating.*

    I like how they put marriage in ” ” (because that’s pretty much how FLDS “marriages” are always written) “celestial” and all.

    “wow” (shaking head and laughing) ” “

  363. There was some earlier commentary on the FLDS and completing the census. Do they have a history of completing it? Or is it just another case of we livein your country but are zero percent compliant.

  364. What?

    No explanation of being married for “Time and eternity”, or just “Time”?

    (which raise such questions as if Priesthood men get their own planet, and they keep their children, what happens to the children when they grow up to be Priesthood men and have their own planet too? Do they beam themselves around the galaxy?)

    We’ve seen the “Marriage records”, they DO purport to be married, and bear his children…. So it goes beyond a religios ceremony, its all learned in Biology 101..

    Its rather amazing that they would bring “Lawrence” into this…. It stands as their testimony I reckon.

  365. That waddling creature with feathers and a bill? No, that’s not a duck at all!!

    This is actually a new line of attack by the FLDS. The bigamy statute does not define marriage so that will be left to the courts. This motion is simply a set up for an appeal. They know Walther will never grant it. What they are doing is called “making a record.”

    From a legal perspective, it’s interesting. This one will probably go all the way up the state appeals level and then likely go into federal court.

    You could very well be watching the beginning of a significant case in Texas jurisprudence.

  366. Guess what guys? This is actually what I’d call the “Duane defense.”

    Hey, I’m just a swinger who does this wacky thing called a “celestial marriage.”

    I’m still reading – and even though it will go down in flames at the trial court level – it’s not a bad motion since Texas has boxed itself in by defining marriage in the constitution.

  367. The thing to me about the defense of the bigamy charge is that they are saying that it is not the actions that matter; it’s their intent. If they can say “we don’t want your marriage license, we have something better” then they are not purporting to be married under the law (in their own minds). Ignore the fact that all their behavior says they are married.

  368. Happy St. Patricks Day –
    Is it true that you Texans do not register your marriages, ie., no marriage license?

  369. I havent read the entire thing but trying to wiggle out of it by nuancing marriage is interesting. To me, they just trash their own religion.

    They blatantly act and proclaim they are married to each other, and trying to ride out of it legally with laws addressing gays seems to me to just dump their religion and convictions in the dust.

    They try to resurrect their uppityness at the end, but by then its too late!

  370. cat?? yes…we do get a marriage license in Texas!!!

  371. Also Texas is a “common law” marriage state.

    =============

    Texas
    Utah
    Washington, D.C.
    IF YOU LIVE IN A STATE THAT DOES RECOGNIZE COMMON LAW MARRIAGE: If you live in one of the above states and you “hold yourself out to be married” (by telling the community you are married, calling each other husband and wife, using the same last name, filing joint income tax returns, etc.), you can have a common law marriage”

    http://www.unmarried.org/common-law-marriage-fact-sheet.html

  372. so by common law, these FLDS couples are married in Texas, with or without the license…

  373. Yes, thats how it reads. But heres the deal, and it doesnt look rosey for the FLDS.

    If by some fluke they wiggle out of the charges, the Texas legislature will likely amend the law to make it clearer.

    And at that point, all the other men who hadnt been charged yet with that particular offense may well be in violation – if they continue practising bigamy in Texas, that is.

    So I think they are screwed, its just a matter of time, now or later.

    I can see how states are giving gay people more rights, but polygamy?

    NOT

    Its the children.

  374. So Ron,
    Will you give us a
    “That waddling creature with feathers and a bill? No, that’s not a duck at all!!”
    post to explain the marriage law nuances?
    Please title it: It’s a Duck for Crying Out Loud (Or maybe not)

  375. Yup, CW. Virginia got rid of that in the early ’90s, except for those who had already established it.

    I really have no dog in the plural marriage legal fight. Although I think it is a huge social problem and violation of civil rights of women and that it needs to be discouraged, I don’t think that sort of law ever works and the need to hide definitely does cause additional problems for the women in particular. If you aren’t going to prosecute it, what’s the point of having it on the books,? Most AGs would rather do anything than have a high profile polygamy case on their hands. And I believe most Americans are going to say that consenting adults can do what they like, out of sheer ignorance, so I would not expect a big outpouring of agreement with the state of Texas on this one. I’d rather see them prosecute them back into the stone age on the child sex, IRS problems, fraudulent transfer of funds, RICO and Mann Act and child labor law violations, etc., etc. ad nauseum, break up the whole cycle of money that allows them to be “temple builders” instead of supporters of their large families, tighten up welfare benefits, etc. If they really had to support their own families legally and honorably by making money the normal way, this practice would die out in a few generations or become so rare as to be totally unimportant. There are so few single men rich enough to support 50 children and 7 wives; if more of the wives had to work, then there would be fewer children, a financial incentive to educate the wives and let them have cars, etc. The wives would have more interaction with the outside world. Total effect would be more real choice for the women and thus the whole system would dry up like dew in the desert.

  376. Also, I think the fact that they are breaking the law just being together, makes them more emboldened to break the law in other ways. Who knows, if it hadn’t been made illegal in the 1900’s, it might have died out already. It’s just one step further down that path. I am not at all convinced that the way to get rid of this plague is to make it illegal. Being illegal is definitely not keeping Islamic immigrants from bringing over second and third wives, even though they could be deported.

  377. Stamp

    I agree 100% – it does cheapen and sully their religion.

    I guess the real question is whether they can really cheapen or sully it more than the current situation.

  378. Betty

    My thoughts have changed following this case. In law school I felt Reynolds was wrongly decided. Being pretty much a libertarian, I was against the criminalization of adult polygamy.

    I’m not so sure now. The scientific data show that this is a significant societal ill that must be addressed somehow by our laws.

    The question then becomes the best way to use our laws to address it. This gets even more complicated because you need to factor in the religious freedom issue.

    Anyway, I’ve changed. Before it was decriminalize it. Now, my view is keep the laws on the books and just be judicious about their enforcement. In my book, this is exactly the way Texas is handling the case.

  379. HHG

    Actually I love that title so I’ll work on it today.

  380. Well, Ron, I don’t come down passionately on this, I am fully of contradictions. It’s a very complex issue. I appreciate hearing your views. On the one hand, you limit basic freedoms of people who may not be causing the harm that is possible in polygyny. On the other hand, you might be opening the door to institutionalized oppression of women, increased abuse and neglect of children, and the creation of a whole new poverty class in our country. I am against drug addiction, but I don’t see that the war on drugs helps except in the more extreme cases like meth lab owners. My position is not so much a matter of libertarianism, but of practicality. What ever has been done in the past does not seem to be working, that’s for sure. I hope the approach Texas is taking is effective.

  381. Ron –
    I concur with your approach completely

  382. The State of Utah was denied US Statehood twice, until on third try it eschewed (is that the right word?) polygamy in order to gain acceptability as a part of USA. There was a clue right there for FLDS that some of their behavior is unacceptable.

    To flaunt by intent, in Warren Jeff’s own words, the sexual assault of ever younger girl children was a downright stupid move but maybe he didn’t expect us to read his words. Intent is hard to prove but not in the case of FLDS actions.

  383. Betty

    In many ways I equate it to prostitution. You’re probably never going to totally eliminate it so the best you can hope is to use the laws to limit and contain it.

    I honestly don’t know if what Texas is doing will be effective. They’re certainly making it painful for the FLDS to continue with the practice of under age marriage. I suppose it will depend on which meme is more powerful – the martyr factor or the reality of folks getting 33 years in prison.

  384. I don’t think anything Texas is doing will stop what is happening behind closed gates at that compound. Marriages can still take place, by Jeffs appointing a “mouth” at each compound, to do whatever he wants done.
    Don’t believe for one second, that Jeffs isn’t still in charge, regardless how often they change names on paperwork.

    What sticks in my craw, is that this practice has been allowed to continue for so long in Utah and Arizona before they scattered out to other states. And the other answer from Utah has basically been, well LDS aren’t FLDS, trying to separate the two beliefs. Its more important to the majority of Utah to deny they believe the same way, and just don’t practice polygamy, although D&C 132 still remains in their own Book of Mormon.

    As long as the Federal Courts are unwilling to go after the corruption within Flds, trafficking, money laundering, etc, they will continue as usual..

  385. Who decides when to prosecute and on what basis? Selective prosecution is a very dangerous policy to me. What’s to keep a fundamental religious police force from using polygamy laws to crack down on anyone cohabitating and run them out of town? Or to use these laws to close down ecovillages, ashrams, buddhist temples and such where people may not even be having sex with each other but may be living in a family setting? I think it’s easy to get consensus against the FLDS because there are so many flagrant abuses and disregard for the law in general. But who is next? To me, if we are serious about stopping institutionalized polygyny then the guidelines for prosecution have to be more specific; it has to be clear that the intent of the law is to stop the social problems, not to police sexual mores. In short, I think that the definition of “purporting to be married” has to be more specific.

  386. An excellent conversation.

    I will start by saying when I first learned of it, I thought it was crazy and funny, somewhat harmless.

    Now, with gay marriage or partnership, there arent usually children involved or forced into those situations – as compared to the current display we have before us.

    It just so happens that there is a sister camp of polygamists in Shortcreek, the CP group, no one is calling for rescues or arrests there, if there are abuses (and there may well be) they aren’t shoved in our faces.

    So no, I dont think we need to round up all the polygamists we can find, but in the context of abusing children and other laws, as mentioned, its a tool to take apart the machinery of abuse.

    The FLDS are behind a walled compound not because of polygamy, but rather two other things – child molestation and Warren’s paranoia – perhaps more paranoid of other members than LEA.

    IRT the “Martyrdom vs incarceration factor” – They must be incarcerated again and again until the martyrdom wears off.

    Its about the childrem, thats my concern. I still dont feel good about having children live behind a fence with indicted child molesters.

    The FLDS will likely be stripped and tattooed, and polygamy will go on elsewhere too but hopefully with the sentencing and conviction of the rest, we will have turned the corner.

    And I would like the FLDS to start taking responsibility for their actions against children. In no civilized nation should their behavior be tolerated.

    Is the question “Are these kids stock, or free range bison?”

  387. Ron, I would agree with don’t decriminalize polygyny and it’s other forms of bigamy. Law Enforcement has to watch this anaconda as it morphs it’s way around , under and over the existing statutes as it is a criminal mindset that attempts to crush any existing statutes effectiveness in limiting it’s legal boundaries.

  388. Betty

    That’s a really great comment. It’s tough. Laws tend to be two edged swords.

    The Texas bigamy statute has never been vigorously contested and historically has been used more for fraudulent marriages than against religiously based polygyny.

    Like I said, this really is a novel legal issue and could be the beginning of some new issues in Texas jurisprudence.

  389. How about bolstering monogamy as the sole form of marriage license that States are willing to issue certificates. Driving licenses are issued on the basis of a privilege granted by the State, maybe marriage licensing has to be limited in the same manner. Raising the Degree and offense sentencing is another avenue. Fines raised to fund a law enforcement effort is another means to limit this illicit practice.

  390. Ron

    “The Texas bigamy statute has never been vigorously contested and historically has been used more for fraudulent marriages than against religiously based polygyny.

    Like I said, this really is a novel legal issue and could be the beginning of some new issues in Texas jurisprudence.”

    ============================

    Yes its ground breaking, but when was the last time Fundie polygamists misbehaved in Texas?

    Oh, that was in 1988, less than 20 years before the FLDS moved into Texas.

    In that case, the polygamists were involved in a murder spree, killing each other.

    Some members are still in prison, Ervil died in prison, Jacqueline LeBaron is AMW FBI fugitive still wanted for murder.

    http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fugitives/cei/lebaron_jt.htm

  391. My thoughts on the Emack motion:

    1) They keep beating a dead horse saying it can’t be bigamy because there was no fraud or deception. Just like Willie saying there aren’t any victims, so there can’t be a crime.

    2) What the lawyers have written is demeaning to the women in this group. I never liked hearing or reading the women being called concubines. But I think this motion is doing exactly that – calling the women concubines.

    3) On page 26 it mentions that the TSC rejected CPS’s taking all of the children off of the ranch because of “the mere existence of plural marriage in a household”. What a bunch of BS. The children were taken off of the ranch because of pregnant teens or child brides who already had children. The raid was never about “plural marriage”; the raid was about sexual assault of underage girls.

    4) Page 26 is the 1st time “plural marriage” is even mentioned. Prior to this it is solely the holy “celestial marriage”. I guess that phrase makes it special.

    5) Is there a “rule book” that states that the FLDS MUST practice polygamy? The motion keeps referring to it being their solemn duty. We all know that not all of the FLDS members have more than 1 wife (depends on Warren’s mood and revelations). D&C 132 references polygamy, but other writings of Joseph Smith said polygamy was a no-no. Aren’t the FLDS kind of picking and choosing their religious mandates?

    6) Mimicking Granny Toad, yeah, they know polygamy is against the law!

    Just a bunch more Willieisms in this motion, if you ask me.

    Ron, I look forward to your elaboration on this motion.

  392. I now view polygyny as the tip of the iceberg of Mormon Theocracy. Polygamy is just one legal challenge and the truer problem is which form of rule is greater, namely secular or eclesiastical laws. Fundamentalists take the laws into their own hands by ignoring existing statutes like birth licenses, truancy laws, minor age limits, divorce and child support, etc. The real problem is their lawless rogue behaviors which only starts with bigamy but continues way beyond that problem.

    American Democracy has to rule above Mormon Theocracy, which is in error with Reynolds vs. United States.

  393. Anony you’re right their new game is calling females concubines for the taking. YFZ is a human breeding ranch neither more nor less.

  394. The PPPP think its a powerful document – but I agree with you, Anon.

    It smells powerful!

  395. Polygamy is just one legal challenge and the truer problem is which form of rule is greater, namely secular or eclesiastical laws.

    Man, Jim, you really want to open a can of worms don’t you?

    I don’t think with as religious as the US is that we’re anywhere near close to tackling that issue. I’ve been watching the fairly non-religious European countries trying to grapple with those issues and it seems to me that it’s even amazingly difficult for them.

    We’re no where close in tackling issues like the poor education for home schoolers and a bunch of those religiously touchy issues.

  396. Plus I missed the part where God told them to taketh thy childs hand in marriage.

  397. Stamp, Mohave County Sheriff’s Office has been arresting child molesters in the Centennial Park group; it just doesn’t get written up in the media.

    There have also been numerous women seeking help (not rescuing or saving, but help) to get out of the Centennial Park group. Again, it just doesn’t get written up in the media.

    The Centennial Parkers just fly under the radar more than the FLDS.

    You can read one woman’s memoir of the extensive child abuse she endured in the Centennial Park group in Susanna Barlow’s book “What Peace There May Be”. Her father was one of the 3 top men in power in the CP group. Susanna’s memoir will probably make you cry.

  398. Okay, First of all we have a Federal Law, which has been upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States, since 1890. Then we have individual states which also have laws against polygamy(bigamy).

    Simply stated,, We don’t need MORE damn laws, we NEED to ENFORCE the ones we already have!!

  399. There is also information on another child abuse victim of Centennial Park – Sara Hammon.

    Her father, J. Marion Hammon, was the 1st prophet of Centennial Park. He sexually abused Sara until the day he died.

    You can read about Sara here:
    http://thehopeorg.org/sara.html

  400. Anon, I hear ya, I still havent found the Polygamy shangri-la. I think its a myth, pun intended.

    Joes myth.

    DD

    When they break laws against women or children I prefer they do throw the book at them. The world is moving that way.

    We dont live in 3000 BC anymore, even though you wouldnt know it by looking at some parts of the world.

  401. Well, DD1, we might need some of the laws to be more specific. A bigamy law, which is intended to be used against fraud may not be the best instrument to stop or curtail polygamy.

  402. BTW, Sara Hammon (mentioned above) is a sister of Sarah Hammon (the legal wife of Mike Emack).

    When “The Work” split in 1986 into the FLDS and CP groups, it caused literal splits in families. Sarah Hammon stayed with Mike Emack in the FLDS. Sara Hammon became part of CP with her parents.

  403. Ron to me:

    I read your post as being a step father in the situation. I suspect you may have been the natural mother and if you are please disregard my last post.

    ……………….

    Not to worry, Ron. Yes I am the mom, of one son and one daughter. Having a daughter makes me extra sensitive to the crimes the FLDS are committing against girls, because I understand the stages of physical and emotional development.

    A fifteen year old is a CHILD. She may wear a bra, get her period, and think she has the rights of an adult, but she is still a CHILD.

    By the way, my children have a stepfather, who would be beyond disgusted and shocked at the idea that he have sex with my daughter – but it’s common practice for the FLDS.

    I already noted this once, but the Sissy Spacek character in “Big Love” expressed my sentiments perfectly: “Your religion is bullsh*t, it’s just an excuse for f*cking around!”

    As well as a rationalization for grown men to screw little girls.

  404. Betty,

    I’m not sure if that is the Bigamy laws intent or its normal use.

    I’m thinking the latter.

    Tom Green and Rodney Holm were convicted of Bigamy and in the latter his appeal to the SCOTUS was turned down.

    I suspect that without additional extenuating circumstances they dont stand any chance of a hearing at that level.

  405. Oh Hell, my grandson 20, got married one month ago, to a 20yr girl, who thinks she is grown up and knows everything,,, Trust me, most girls,,, and boys at 20 arent even ready to get married.

  406. Yeah, stamp, but wasn’t that in Utah or Arizona? I’m not sure a state that is unaccustomed to the problem would have that intent. I don’t really know, I’m just guessing though.

    Yeah, I don’t think it will make a hill of beans at the trial level as Ron suggested. If they are going to get off on religious grounds, they better be in for the long haul.

  407. yep–I hear ya deputydog–our grandaughter is 20 and getting married in June–I soooo wished she wouldn’t!!! I think she is all caught up in this bride thing–all the fu-fu…thrills..etc..and is not thinking about what happens next. She’s smart…but…not mature–I don’t think!!
    She will graduate college in May–marry in June. Seems she’s always exhausted..heck..I’m an old lady and can run circles around her. She has no clue what exhausted is–she will find out. haha

  408. Betty

    Its pretty much a re-run of Rodney Holm, his case and his appeal. He gives the same excuses and I expect the FLDS will get the same response he did back then.

    http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39285

  409. Ron help!

    What does 1)some religious group poaching a moose for a religious sacrifice and 2)”a distinction between opticians and ophthalmologists or optometrists” have to do with this?

  410. I googled Rodney Holm and found this excellent article in the Phoenix Sun Times from 2003.

    http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-03-13/news/bound-by-fear-polygamy-in-arizona/

  411. I think that young adults should have the same opportunity to screw up their lives and learn the hard way, just like we did. LOL! Just make sure that her room is not still available in your home and it will all work out fine.

  412. Anon @11:18

    I could see religion and moose being remotely relevant – that would be a religious freedom question that might have some relevance to plural marriage.. The optician/ophthalmologist stuff seems pretty damn irrelevant to me.

  413. What do those moose and op* questions have to do with anything? New stupid deadred herrings?

  414. Wow, they used that “monogamy is the minority worldwide” crapola for Holms, too! Also the “it doesn’t cause the social ills everyone said it would” thing…also totally unsubstantiated by any reliable study. (See, our women don’t report abuse to anyone who would actually act on it, so it must not exist!)

    Isn’t it the definition of insanity to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result? Why would they think using that bozo’s affadavit was going to work in Texas when it didn’t work in Uth????

  415. yep–I hear ya deputydog–our grandaughter is 20 and getting married in June–I soooo wished she wouldn’t!!! I think she is all caught up in this bride thing–all the fu-fu…thrills..etc..and is not thinking about what happens next. She’s smart…but…not mature–I don’t think!!
    She will graduate college in May–marry in June. Seems she’s always exhausted..heck..I’m an old lady and can run circles around her. She has no clue what exhausted is–she will find out.

    …………………………

    I raised both my kids with: Get your education FIRST. (Bachelor’s degee is minimum, Master’s is preferable) Get your career going FIRST. Don’t get married and have kids until you’re at least thirty.

    How can you make a good choice about who to spend the rest of your life with until you have a good idea about where your life is going? How do you learn about life in this world without getting out in the world, getting as much education as possible, traveling to other countries, living in places besides where you grew up?

    OK, off my soapbox now, sorry. It just makes me so sad to see chldren denied this opportunity so that a few old white men can populate their stupid ass celestial planets.

  416. I totally agree Anonymous!! its sad indeed!!!

  417. Anon

    “Stamp, Mohave County Sheriff’s Office has been arresting child molesters in the Centennial Park group; it just doesn’t get written up in the media.”

    Where the heck is Brooke on this!?

  418. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/mar/17/jessop-case-goes-to-jury/

    Gone to jury!

  419. Jessop case goes to jury:

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/mar/17/jessop-case-goes-to-jury/

    *****
    Hurley said all the sect members, not just women, were raised to believe that the FLDS prophet is “God’s mouthpiece on earth.”

    “Was he intentionally and knowingly violating the law, or was he following the directive of the prophet?” Hurley asked

    *******

    Seriously, this is all the defense lawyer has????? The answer is BOTH. The answer is also Merril Leroy Jessop is and was an ADULT at the time he raped his child victim, he is responsible for the decision he made, now it is time for him to face the consequences for his actions!

  420. He did knowlingly break the law or he would have had no need to tell the child bride to lie about her age.

  421. WOW, did anyone read that WND link Stamp posted above? It has the exact phrase in it (attributed to Rod Parker) as a phrase in the Mike Emack motion to dismiss his bigamy charge.

    Yet Parker’s name is not on the brief for Emack. HUH?

    Here’s what Parker said in the WND article:
    “Popular departure from traditional marriage has made our domestic laws on cohabitation and fornication anachronistic,” Parker writes. “These laws are not enforced against those practicing new lifestyles, but are asserted as weapons in this case against those living a traditional, family-grounded, religious-based lifestyle. This is ironic.”

    Now, if Emack’s 3 Texas attorneys used the exact phrase Rod Parker wrote 6 years ago, why is it not credited to Parker?

    Stamp is absolutely right – it is the same song and dance BS.

  422. Also from Hurley:

    “Lead defense attorney Dan Hurley began his closing arguments with a reference to the book “To Kill a Mockingbird,” specifically a time when the main character is told to “walk a mile in their shoes” before judging someone.”

    ******

    Is this lawyer seriously suggesting that everyone go out and rape little girls before they be allowed to judge someone else for raping little girls????

  423. Stamp, Brooke is “good friends” with the CP members. She has lunch with the CP ladies when she’s in the area. That’s where the heck Brooke is on this!

  424. (See, our women don’t report abuse to anyone who would actually act on it, so it must not exist!)

    Betty, by golly that is almost verbatim what the Centennial Parkers say. They have NO abuse in their group. Yeah, right.

  425. Where did the moose come from? I missed it

  426. Is this lawyer seriously suggesting that everyone go out and rape little girls before they be allowed to judge someone else for raping little girls????

    Ummm, Sadie something tells me that he clearly didn’t intent it that way! 🙂

  427. Those 3 Texas attorneys recycled (stole) Rod Parker’s 6-year-old BS and didn’t give Rod any credit for it. That really bothers me. I wonder if they sent him a few bucks for using his schmaltz?

  428. Where did the moose come from? I missed it

    I don’t know but totally random crap seems to have a way of occurring around me…

  429. Those 3 Texas attorneys recycled (stole) Rod Parker’s 6-year-old BS and didn’t give Rod any credit for it. That really bothers me. I wonder if they sent him a few bucks for using his schmaltz?

    The FLDS may not be the brightest bulbs in the pack, but I assume they know better than to reinvent the wheel.

    Of course they’re recycling stuff. I’m sure those are quite intentional decisions they’re making.

  430. The case is before the jury, shouldn’t be much longer before we all hear the guilty verdict. IMO the defense lawyers had a lame useless defense, guess they have some scheme to keep charging billable hours for appeals to the FLDS, yes lets bleed the beast, the FLDS cash cow. $Kerching$

    Hope that the sentence is for time and eternity, yes another one to sing those Texas prison blues. Enjoy that ride on the white bus to Huntsville, TX, bad, bad Leroy!

  431. “Is this lawyer seriously suggesting that everyone go out and rape little girls before they be allowed to judge someone else for raping little girls????

    Ummm, Sadie something tells me that he clearly didn’t intent it that way!”

    Well, the jury was intentionally cleared of anyone who had actually “walked” a mile in those shoes huh? Maybe he was trying to dredge up an outlier and get a mistrial.

    In the meantime, I hope the jury took note and discusses exactly what that meant – like writing the “Proffft” for advice on how to treat your 8th grade wife and what kind of chores she should do.

    Are there really people outside the FLDS who walk in those shoes?

  432. SAN ANGELO, Texas — A Tom Green County jury has found Merril Leroy Jessop, 35, guilty of sexual assault of a child in connection with allegations he illegally married an underage girl.

  433. GUILTY!

  434. GUILTY!!!!!

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/mar/17/jessop-case-goes-to-jury/

  435. Dang, that was fast. A new record!!!

  436. Whoo hoo! Exactly as it should be! You’ve got to love Texas.

  437. And another one bites the dust!

  438. So I guess the jury didn’t buy the “Warren made me do it” defense!

  439. Thanks Deputydog!

  440. Stamp, the sacrificial moose poaching part was in the footnotes on one of the pages in the first 1/3 of Emack’s motion to dismiss.

  441. Hope that the sentence is for time and eternity

    Dang it!!! While quite appropriate, that’s not one of the options.

    I sense he’s going to get tagged. The “she’s graduated eighth grade” can I put her to work letter is gonna really hurt.

  442. Great news!!! Making out a check right now for Hope Org.
    For each POS that is found guilty I send a donation and if by some strange reason one of the dirty dozen is not found guilty I will double the amount.

  443. Dang – they were only out 1 hour – probably 30 to 45 minutes of that is housekeeping (reading the charge, electing a foreman, etc.)

    I suppose it’s not too surprising. The interesting part will be sentencing.

  444. A new record!!!

    So much for those “liberal” Angelo State students…LOL

  445. Ron, the moose wasn’t random crap. It is mentioned in the footnotes. Some of us are more anal than others and actually read the footnotes.

    And with bad bad Leroy being found guilty – 5 for 5 now – I am going to go celebrate with some green beer. Happy St. Patrick’s Day!

  446. As another poster said, that was fast. GUILTY!. Well ole Leroy’s going to be wearing all white, in Texas that the clothes of the prison inmate. No FLDS undergarments allowed.

    Here’s a song that ole Leroy will be singing soon:

  447. Jury finds Jessop guilty – gosanangelo.com

  448. I just heard our daily sonic boom, but it came early today.

    I don’t think it was one of the usual planes from Nellis AFB or Area 54 breaking the sound barrier this time.

    I think it was Willie exploding. A great big BANG of hot air!

  449. I think the “liberal” San Angelo college town jurors did not approve of the notion of taking a 15 yr old out of school.

  450. From gosanangelo.com

    Leroy Jessop “kept a pleasant face while 51st District Judge Barbara Walther read the jury statement and pronounced the word “guilty.” ”

    Ya gotta admire that KEEP SWEET attitude!

  451. Ron, the moose wasn’t random crap. It is mentioned in the footnotes. Some of us are more anal than others and actually read the footnotes.

    Sorry anon – I wasn’t trying to be mean. However, until you clarified I had no idea there was anything about moose in that motion. It did seem like some pretty random stuff until you tied it all together.

  452. MARTYRS THEY ALL THINK THEY ARE DAMN MARTYRS!!! bUT THEY ARE CONVICTS, CRIMINALS!! SWEET MY ASS!!

  453. I’m celebrating with a little “Polygamy Gangsta Rap”

    Its a rerun but funny, language tho!

  454. Ron, it didn’t come across as mean at all. I just wanted to clarify it so you didn’t think I’m nuts and imagining moose. Because I haven’t started with the green beer – YET.

  455. Anon my child,
    Laissez les bons temps rouler!

  456. I dont drink beer or alcohol,or caffiene at all, but TODAY, Im gonna have a REAL Dr Pepper to celebrate Justice!!! 🙂

  457. that’s all DD1?

  458. Sigh. I’m sticking to my new eating plan. No alcohol except Friday and Saturday. Besides, I have to go to the club business meeting cause I’m a treasurer, and you don’t want your treasurer drunk, even on St Paddy’s Day.

  459. Hmmm, I wonder if they’re going to plunge right into sentencing or give the jurors a little break?

  460. I note we have another,”Answer Them Nothing’ fanatical FLDS Church Defense. That was a very quick verdict seems a strong wind of Justice seems to be blowing into San Angelo. Sentence should be fairly lengthy given the forthright verdict of ‘Guilty’.

    My guess would be another 30+Years, with the bigamy charge in the offing.

  461. It is St. Patrick’s Day. Give them the afternoon off.

  462. Be sure to give vote on the Poll Daddy survey for sentencing of Merril Leroy Jessop today. I would expect a Texas Twister size sentence to equal the double-sexual assault resulting in two pregnancies. Priesthood men need to hear a louder and clearer message that their not in Short Creek, anymore.

  463. I thought the jury was to hearing sentencing phase at 2:30?

  464. Where is the poll daddy survey?

  465. I will answer this jury something. Great job.

  466. Good ole west Texas decency and common sense.

  467. I reckon they cuffed and stuffed that child molesting perp!

  468. He’s got some of that fancy FLDS wrist bracelet Bling thing goin on now, didnt know they liked it so well!

  469. Great! Another one down. I cannot wait until that deadbeat dad merril jessop is in the docket. May he be found guilty and receive a sentence of 30+ years.

  470. Its really quite amazing – Texas does so easily what UT and AZ couldnt bring themselves to do.

    Think of the innummerable children who suffer there. What a shame, just to protect some nasty Priesthoodlums.

  471. The Eldorado Success has a picture of the door safe and the hole Ranger Jesse Valdez went through. Whoa dog. That’s quite a safe!

    There isn’t enough money in the whole world to entice me to go through that hole into the dark unknown. Thank goodness we have Rangers ready and willing to do it. Good job Ranger Jesse.

  472. So did the defense offer any defense at all? How many hours did they present testimony?

  473. What do you bet that Willie starts blabbing “persecution that the jury came to such a quick verdict” because the evil gentiles wanted to hurry up with the trial and sentencing so they could be done before March Madness starts tomorrow night.

  474. Verdict reached in less than one hour! OMG – Texas you rock.

  475. Willie was too busy passing notes that Forrest was writing to the defense counsel.

  476. Was he really PT? Were you there today? Lucky you!

  477. Soooo, who is the next perp and when is his trial coming up ?

  478. C-M, I was just thinking the same thing. I know somehwere in the last 5,000 or so comments, someone listed the order of the trials. With all the traveling I like to do, I should set aside a week, or so, for Texas. Maybe take in a trial. I’ve never been to Texas, why not this year? It could be quite interesting/entertaining!
    So, yeah, who’s next???

  479. lehi barlow jeffs aka allred is coming up in april or may.

  480. april 26 is the trial date for lehi. abram harker jeffs is june 7.

  481. lehi’s should be fun just for the explanation of his name alone. he’s living proof of warren’s marriage merry-go-round. susanna who was forced to marry an allred is his momma.

  482. ProudTexan, from your 6:24 post Willie was passing notes from Forrest to the defense counsel.

    Who is Forrest?

  483. From the latest gosanangelo.com article

    “Lead defense attorney Dan Hurley said Jessop’s virtues would come out in the trial.”

    OK, so what were these virtues?

  484. They’ll make something up and get some neighbor or someone he’s had business dealings or lunch with to swear to it, same as for his brother.

  485. forrest is my nickname for sam steed. when the trial was in eldorado, he was running across the courthouse lawn and it reminded me of forrest gump, so now i just call him forrest.

    BTW – wee willie who’s not so wee anymore had forrest running to and fro this afternoon. guess he’s an errand boy now. other than forrest and willie, there were 2 flds couples, a younger man and then a sweet looking older couple. the older couple were photographed at allen keate’s trial. i think they are named roundy. a woman in one of the couples looked like one of warren’s daughters. she also slept some, so i guess it wasn’t really stimulating to her.

  486. i’ve been wondering who they’ll call for leroy. he wasn’t sent to exile like raymond. wonder if he worked for brother rich too and they can call the same trio who vouched for ray. did him a lot of good, 10 years in the pookey.

  487. ProudTexan said:
    a woman in one of the couples looked like one of warren’s daughters. she also slept some, so i guess it wasn’t really stimulating to her.

    PT, that woman was probably elated that she got to spend a day in court away from crying babies, cleaning house and cooking, so she used the rare (court) “quiet time” to take a nap and get a moment of solace.

  488. Merril Leroy’s two children will cause the jury to reason a very stiff sentence. To be born into the FLDS Church Family is comparable to being the offspring in a white slavery system. These children had no choice, zero free agency and were orphaned at birth by two completely irresponsible parents, no adult supervision is afforded FLDS children.

  489. i hope it does caJIM.

  490. PT, add to the jury’s perspective that Merril Leroy has sired another child and three sets of twins during this same time-frame involving nine (9) innocent children’s lives with this convicted felon.
    All victims at the FLDS altar of blessed Polygyny, what a heinous crime.

  491. LOL Over on the Trib boards, Alin is claiming Emack is not a bigamist, he is an adulterer. One wife, lotsa mistresses.

    Wow. A religion in which all the men are just like Tiger Woods.

    Lightning is striking all right: 4 down, 8 to go.

  492. Al clearly lives in his own little world. Actually, I think they’re right to an extent. These men are “husbands” they’re slave owners.

  493. I am convinced if these ‘Child Brides’ and children were put on the witness stand that this Holy Priesthoodlums lie factory would collapse under the weight of nothing more than the truth about their unlawful church teachings, practices and illicit lifestyles. Willie R. Jessop has his work cut out for himself continuing the half-truths, double-talk and self delusions for the Press & Public to swallow. Lies, Lies and more lies to prop up their brand of worship that naturally is rotted from the inside out. Who will be the next spokesperson for the FLDS Church when Willie R. Jessop doesn’t attract the reporters notice or interest in comments?

    I would like to see Michael Emacks bigamy appeal read to this San Angelo Jury before they finalize their sentence upon Merril Leroy Jessop, they need to know, “The whole truth and nothing but the TRUTH, so help me God”.

  494. Does this not work…or is everyone on vacation?

  495. Allrighty then.

  496. haha–JonDana–I thought everyone had left too..but..found them over on the sentencing page.

  497. alin said yesterday on the trib board that he wasn’t worried about the child sex in this case; that it only bothered him if the girl was 15 or younger. Um….hello?

  498. Sweet Sixteen must be Alin’s magic number.

  499. So, yesterday Prosecutor Eric Nichols put the spotlight on Merril Leroy Jessop’s celestial marriage service, attended by Federal Fugitive Warren Steed Jeffs in a triple ceremony of three underage minor girls that would lead to sexual assault and bigamy indictments.

    Does anyone see an organized crime syndicate in any of these overt acts to defy lawful order and criminal conduct wherein multiple felony acts where occurring in the same day? Legitimate practices of the FLDS Church in worship or blatant activities of an underworld crime organization in open defiance of Law & Order? Is this a crime wave or expression of ‘Religious Freedom’?

    Stop the spread of outlaw FLDS Theocracy in America.

  500. alin said yesterday on the trib board that he wasn’t worried about the child sex in this case; that it only bothered him if the girl was 15 or younger. Um….hello?
    ==================================
    Hiyas. Sorry but I’m not going to wring my hands.

  501. How bout wringing your brain Alinusara! Cause you sure need some brains

  502. Alinusara,

    That’s because you have about zero integrity. At least Pharisee is honest and consistent about what he believes, as despicable as I might thing those beliefs are. Why don’t you just come out and say that you think women are possessions and as long as their masters provide for their support it cannot be a crime! Because that’s the only conclusion I can come to after reading your garbage for more than a year.

  503. You say you only care if the girl is 15 or less, and then when that is pointed out to you, you still don’t care. Just admit it. You really don’t care. If it bleeds, it breeds. Girls don’t need school; it will only interfere with their housework. Be a man and say what you really think instead of being snarky and passive aggressive!

  504. 75 years in prison, that dude;s most likely never going to see the light of day as a free man. Ron if you are out there how dose that work out before he’s eligable for parole?

    Should send a message to the FLDS leadership, don’t mess with Texas, you all will lose.

    Shouldn’t be much longer before bad bad leroy takes that long white bus ride to Huntsville, TX

  505. At least Pharisee is honest and consistent about what he believes, as despicable as I might thing those beliefs are.
    =====================================================
    I’ve been honest and consistent. I was outraged what the state of Texas did to those woman and children. Somehow Texas believes victims, especially woman and children, is property of the state used to satisfy convictions. Sorry Betty if you disagree. I don’t know how I can express my outrage any more then I’ve already have.

  506. i’m betting he’s not smurking any longer.

    lehi barlow jeffs aka allred must be quaking in his priesthood undies.

  507. 75 years? That’s pretty surprising. I’m not sure why his sentence is so significantly higher then the other defendants. Only guess I have his letter seeking permission for the girl, I think it’s [deleted], to drop out of school.

    [First name of unnamed ‘Child Bride’ was removed’].

  508. Eligible for parole in 37.5 years (age 72), likely to be paroled at 80% of sentence at age 95. If he doesn’t state he was wrong and remorseful about his crime (and if he is still alive), he would get out at age 110.

    I sure am proud of the San Angelo jury.

  509. I’m not sure why his sentence is so significantly higher then the other defendants. Only guess I have his letter seeking permission for the girl drop out of school.
    ———
    Yeah, maybe. Other factors to consider are that, during the April 2008 raid, M. Leroy Jessop tried to delete evidence from his computer and instructed the victim to lie about her age to authorities.

  510. a triple ceremony of three underage minor girls that would lead to sexual assault and bigamy indictments.

    Warren’s 12-year-old bride of that day was the full sister to Leroy Jessop.

    Wake up, FLDS folks.

    Some of y’all have followed Warren Jeffs straight into prison.

  511. So, Alin, in a round about way, you are saying that the only thing you are upset about is that Texas is prosecuting these men for sexual assault of a child, and the removal of the children from the ranch.

  512. Gee, in the future when the Bishop sends you a message that you’ve been selected to engage in a ‘Celestial’ ceremony, do you think the Phoodlums might start to protest and complain about having to be the next victim. YFZ Felony Farm is going to need a few good men to step up to the ‘Celestial’ Honeymoon in the future. Their perspiring foreheads, knocking knees and broken voices will give-away their lack of “Fervency for the Lord”. Maybe they will have the free agency to worship from afar, instead. Then the prophet can have all the young brides, as long as he makes bail and flees Justice.

  513. This should be a wake up call for the men in the FLDS.

    You might want to re-think your prophet having total control over every aspect of your life especially in matters of the heart where his personal preferences are suspect at best and sick at its worst.

    Your simply not going to get away with marrying teen-age girls who have been given absolutely no choice in the matter and who are simply too young to stand up to grown men threatening them and their families unless complete obedience is given.

  514. Hey, with all the older guys going to prison, does this mean that they won’t have to kick the young guys out anymore?

  515. you have a point there, TBM, ex’ing all the young males may no longer be necessary.

  516. Funny that.

    Karma has a way of working things out.

  517. (((What great dinner theater… Im sitting here, eating my left over corned beef and cabbage [yum!] watching MK being pommelled in the MK vs Reality match!!)))

  518. I guess Fess Elisha Parker Jr who died just the other day was born in San Angelo back in 1924.

  519. Sorry, I’m wrong, born Ft Worth but grew up at ‘Angelo. I found that at Wikipedia, after first finding him on 1930 census. Fill out & send in your census stuff, crazy old ladies someday want to find you.

  520. Just wondered, if after reading this, anyone here can name at least 3 criminal episodes committed by the FLDS?

    http://polygamybooks.org/2010/03/19/if-you-cant-dispute-the-message-then-impugn-the-messenger.aspx

  521. GrannyToad, unfortunately the census forms no longer ask for names and birthdates of parents. That’ll put a crimp in the genealogy hobby.

  522. – Warren in his dictations tells some guy to take an obscene amount of cash and go buy some fake identification for him. And, bonus! he knows who to contact to get that. Would you?
    – Warren’s lawyers suggest that they postdate a transfer of property to before the seizure of the trust and the removal of Warren as trustee.
    – Using cash to buy cashiers checks to pay for business expenses so that you can avoid paying taxes on the cash. We call this money laundering. It was one of Raymond’s “bad acts”.

  523. Rattle it’s just that one. None are the same, this is more like those 1790-1820. It’s up to ‘us’ to sort through stuff and put the clues together.

  524. Warren, he’s cosseted there in AZ. Awaiting the end of life, or the hammer.

    Raymond is worse than a schmuck he’s a crime family figure of the RICO variety. One of many. They keep themselves judgment proofed as well, avoiding criminal and civil responsibility.

    Until Texas.

  525. ding, ding, ding – we have a winner! Betty correctly identifies three “episodes” that demonstrate the FLDS has engaged in racketeering as defined by RICO. Please, please, please, U.S. officials, charge these rascals as a criminal enterprise!

  526. Connie I don’t know what the feds’ focus is, what eventuality they hope to accommplish, and I do keep wondering. Is it because they want to find where the pot of gold is buried at the end of the rainbow? I’ve no idea.

  527. The feds apparently aren’t going to do anything. Months ago they had all the information needed to formally make charges and arrests. Even Wee Willie was targeted (per his deposition with Natalie Malonis when he pleaded the 5th because of pending federal charges). My understanding is that everything was set to begin, charges and arrests were going to take place and then everything was called off on orders from above. This was after the new administration was installed in Washington. I have never heard whether it was somebody in Washington or somebody in one of the two US Attorney Offices in Texas or….. but all charges have been put into limbo. There are tons of federal charges that could be filed. I wish somebody with better sources than I would find out what or who put the brakes on. What a travesty.

  528. Big time travesty.

  529. utesfan

    Limbo indeed. My guess the current administration in Washington DC did not want to highlight our new president father’s bigamy.

  530. Yep, it’s always about politics.

    And the BS “beat goes on”.

  531. Perhaps our government hasn’t found anything to warrant federal charges?

  532. Al

    There is a lot the Feds could charge them with. Just because they havent doesnt mean they wont – and if Texas continues as well as they have, the Feds might not step in.

    Now if by some stroke the Warrants were tossed, the Fed may step in and do what they do.

    They are just waiting, the FBI files on the FLDS are kept in a safe place, dont fret about that.

  533. If you had actually read the dictations, or the bad acts of Raymond, you would know that there are lots of other legal charges that are possible, Alinusara, but of course as long as you don’t inform yourself then you can pretend that there is nothing wrong.

  534. I checked in at Brooke’s blog and got whiplash. First FA says that the FLDS are a minority and then in the next post Bill Medvecky says that if blacks had been at the ranch then the cops would not have raided it. Wow. First whites are minorities and then whites are being persecuted because they are NOT minorities. This is what happens when you run out of excuses.

  535. They have taken to rattling their marbles. When all else fails, make noise and post BS.

    It’s pretty entertaining, really!

  536. I’m sorry Betty but if the U.S Attorney General doesn’t take action I’ll assume he knows his job better than you do.

  537. Time is open-ended, you know, alin. The fat lady ain’t sung yet.

  538. Oh, what bull, Alin. If the US Attorney General was prosecuting the FLDS then you wouldn’t think he knows his job at all! You’d be making snarky comments about how their rights were being violated.

  539. Stamp, normally I am annoyed, but that was so bizarre right together that it was actually pretty funny!

  540. Betty, I know, they are having a hand-wringing party, and they are out of sync!

  541. Also I dont know if anyone elses posts arent getting through, but Brooke seems to be giving favor to her PPPP Patrol.

    Bill Meddlesome doesnt post much, I guess it gets through no matter HOW crazy!

    And FA seems to have snapped her twig.

    McPhool went off like bad diarrhea, he forgot that Warren has already been tried, convicted and sentenced – reminding him of that simple fact seems to be a violation of the PPPP terms of service.

  542. John Llewellyn exposes corruption in the AUB group in this video

    http://www.whatloveisthis.tv/ep310.htm

  543. In can’t believe she allowed Bill’s posts about how he thinks blacks would not have been prosecuted. That was extremely offensive.

  544. Brooke is on a troll roll. She is collecting as many inane posts as she can.

    She gets a lot of help from the PPPP!

  545. Well, I’m certainly not happy with Brooke. Maybe I need a new “girlfriend.”

    She let Huge McNut post an ad hominem attack after I totally deconstructed his straw man argument and then deleted my reply.

    I actually saved the reply so that I could go back the next day and give it an honest assessment. Was it on point? Was it too insulting? Did it involve ad hominem attacks?

    While grading your own comment is difficult, I tried to take a very honest look at it and think there was no reason that comment should have been deleted.

  546. Alexa update …

    After an interesting dip down into the 680 thousand range, this site’s ratings have been surging. As of today we are at 617,461. That is clearly a statistically significant move and a significant move upward.

    We still have a way to go since Bill M’s site is in the 437 thousand range, but I have no doubt that this site is on the move.

  547. Ron,
    Why don’t you place your post here, so that we can provide constructive feedback ?

  548. That’s kinda funny but the concept interests me, alternative site for responses to Adam’s blog where normal posts aren’t allowed.

  549. why not, often late?
    there has to be a voice of sanity somewhere.

  550. Heehee I wonder if it would get under her skin.

  551. so what if it did ?

  552. I don’t know, Stamp, she’s posting all of mine. She even posted the one where I insinuated that Bill M was wearing a hood.

  553. from Brooke’s blog: “Judge Sandra Peuler issued this ruling on Friday, in which she refused to dismiss Allen Steed’s counter claim against Elissa Wall for slander, libel.

    Expecting other filings today, and will posted when in hand. . .”

    Looks like the flds lose another one.

  554. Betty

    I saw that, but several responses (except one of late, a small one) to Hugh went unposted. He blarged out a huge response to some questions, and in typical Hugh fashion, they were spun to the nth degree.

    I only addressed one point (I posted here or the other thread earlier, about Warren being a Top Ten fugitive) and its not been approved.

  555. OK here’s how it started after Hugh posted several cases about women in response to Leroy Jessop getting 75 years I posted this:

    Hugh

    It is a straw man argument – you are inherently trying to refute the proposition that what happened to Leroy Jessop is just. You’re doing that by bringing superficially similar propositions (cases involving women first and foremost of all) as having refuted it.

    None of those cases involve the birth of a child that ties down the victim with a responsibility they can’t shake. As I told you on your site, for gosh sakes, they are women. We can argue just how arbitrary the law is, but when it comes to justice for women and men, the attitudes are vastly different on the need to punish the different sexes.

    It’s not even that I dispute that crime and punishment can be quite arbitrary, but at least try to find cases involving male perps, female victims and involving a child being born. Maybe then you can try to get to the issue which I’m sure bothers you the most – the religious issues.

    Your arguments as you make them right now are very, very weak.

    Brooke then allowed this comment by Hugh:

    Ron, the only “Straw Men” in this discussion are your characterizations of my arguments as “Straw Men.”

    It is nightmarish to talk to such dishonest people.

    I haven’t used the word “Justice” once in this thread, until now.

    Hypocrisy Ron.

    Scapegoating.

    And you’re the scarecrow.

    So, since he made the ad hominem attack that I was dishonest I posted this reply, which Brooke deleted:

    Hugh

    Honestly that’s pretty pathetic. When you get your rhetorical
    backside handed to you in a debate you descend into insults and ad
    hominem attacks (did I accuse you of being dishonest?)

    Yes, I’m the scarecrow and apparently I chase off rhetorically
    challenged polygamist supporters.

    Boo!!! Run away and hide now.

    Honestly, I thought my response was quite measured, non-offensive and was a valid response to being called “dishonest.”

    Apparently Brooke disagreed and sent it to the trash heap.

    I’ll let you guys decide.

  556. I think your response Ron was in a vein similar to his, and should have been included if his was.
    The reality is that female perpetrators usually don’t get the same sentences for this crime, and that is because there is the general perception that the adolescent boy seeks to have contact with an older woman to be initiated into sexual conduct.
    Do I think this is right?
    No – but such is the perception of our society.
    I think that male children may be as significantly harmed as female children are when they are sexually abused as children or adolescents – but I would seek out a comparative study in the medical literature to confirm my impression.

  557. Ron in Houston,
    Working on that literature search for you.
    From what I see thus far, female children are sexually abused much more frequently than male children, and thus, there is more literature on the outcomes of that abuse. Could it be that there is greater leniency in sentencing for female perpetrators due to the fact that there is little documentation regarding its effect on male children ?
    I did find one article which focuses on male victims of CSA, however, it apparently focused on male children who were sexually abused by older homosexual males. The outcomes for the male children who are sexually abused by older homosexual males are similar to the outcomes for female victims of abuse.
    I will continue my search.

  558. I liked your response Ron but that just could be because I’m feeling stabby today. 🙂 Really Hugh is tormented by women, he cannot understand us, can’t control us & we don’t give a rat’s behind about him and his impotent temper tantrums.

  559. Link to an article on the long term effects of childhood sexual abuse,(CSA), on children, focusing on females :
    http://www.nctsnet.org/nctsn_assets/Articles/1.pdf

  560. Pathgirl,
    I concur with your assessment. (who cares what he thinks anyway?)

  561. Once Hugh went into a major temper tantrum at me on Brooke’s blog; he was saying that I despised men and their disgusting sexual needs and my only joy and sense of power was to try to deny others who were enjoying sex. It was quite bizarre, there was some of it all in caps, and it had very little to do with the content of the previous conversation. Now he is fascinated with female sexual abusers and the fact that they are not equally punished for their sexual sins as men are.

    ISSUES.

  562. This is kind of a fun letter to the editor:

    Kick Utah out

    Public Forum Letter
    Updated: 03/22/2010 04:15:07 PM MDT

    Hopefully, most Utahns remember enough about our state’s history to recall that Congress insisted on two conditions that would have to be met before the Utah Territory could attain statehood. First, we’d have to renounce that “relic of barbarism,” polygamy. Second, we’d have to prove that we had a working two-party system where religious leaders weren’t calling all the shots politically.

    Now, 114 years later, polygamy is practiced openly, and we have reverted to a one-party state that is heavily influenced by the predominant religion. Therefore, since we have reneged on the original agreement, I propose that Congress initiate proceedings to rescind statehood. That would save Rep. Carl Wimmer, R-Herriman, and other legislators all the time they currently spend trying to secede.

    M.J. Ogden
    North Ogden

    http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_14732520

  563. Ron, I think your comments to Hugh the Nutcase were appropriate and I think it was wrong of Brooke to include Hugh the Nutcase’s comments and exclude yours.

    I haven’t read the blog, so I can’t tell if the exclusion of your comments make Hugh look like an even bigger nutcase or not – like he’s talking to the wind and such.

    Brooke “creates” her blog – she molds and shapes it to become what she wants it to be. Welcome to Brooke’s world where things aren’t logical or fair, but do have a wonderful spin!

  564. I think I will make up a new word – brookespin

    brookespin – n. – what you get from certain reporters from Utah.

    The brookespin was so strong in that last Salt Lake Tribune article that I almost wet my pants laughing.

  565. Oh my, Shurtleff and Hatch are now distracted from the BCS crisis. Whatever shall the Utah football teams do when the new season starts in the fall?

    Shurtleff: Utah to join lawsuit against federal health care reform

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700018579/Shurtleff-Utah-to-join-lawsuit-against-federal-health-care-reform.html

  566. Betty,
    The content of his comments to you in Brooke’s blog were simply his projection of his perceptions of women in general.
    Don’t take it personally.

  567. Alexa update #2

    Significant movements are occurring –

    This morning this site is up from 619 thousand to 574 thousand.

  568. Anon @7:11 AM. I did not at all take it personally. It was very obvious that some part of his real thoughts and fears were spilling out into the public eye and it was not pretty.

  569. Ron,
    What do you attribute the movement to ?
    More people from this blog installing Alexa, or our listing on Alexa?
    Also – see my comments on the literature referencing CSA in male children above.

  570. Ron,
    I did find one paper on the effect of CSA involving female perpetrators. There is a small sample size (7 male victims, 7 female victims). As it turns out, these victims experience adverse health outcomes similar to female victims of male offenders.
    Here is a link to the abstract :
    http://jiv.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/19/10/1137

  571. A good thread on Brookes from the UEP, my response:

    “The dictations and actions of Warren effectively show that he not only wanted to force a “Prophecy” true, he also condemned the people who remain there.

    He “dusted his shoes” and condemned those that remain in Shortcreek, yet said that anyone who worked with the government lost Priesthood, thereby condemning the good FLDS people (according to his confused mind).

    It really shows why he is a false prophet – yes he did those things, and its my guess he simply wanted to have a “Prophecy” fulfilled that he could hang his hat on.

    Anyone who has followed the story knows that his father had Prophesied that the end of the world would happen in 2000 and also that he wouldn’t die.

    It wouldn’t be the first time a religious group followed their leader to their own personal “end times” whether that be literal or financial.

    From what I see, its the “end times” for Warren’s foolishness.”

  572. Cat

    It has to be people surfing with the Alexa toolbar. This site never had much in the way of movement prior to our experiment. Oh, we’d go up or down a little but still always remained in a similar range. Now, we’re significantly moving in an upward direction.

  573. Ron,

    Its good to see the posts in context – if Brooke had been playing fair, she would have deleted Hugh’s post first.

    That said, there really isnt anywhere where one could have an elevated conversation with that person, as seen with his interactions with others on various blogs (many he is banned from) and with his reaction to reason or criticism, its just not possible.

    Were dealing with someone here whose Church has threatened him with the calling the cops if he shows up.

    How do you elevate that?

  574. BTW that Alexas toolbar was a good experiment!

  575. Ron,
    How many more weeks are we continuing your Open Label Phase One Clinical Trial of Alexa for the Treatment of NPD?

  576. He said April 1. I think I will actually go to the trouble to get on board with this experiment when I pay the bills today or tomorrow.

  577. Cat

    We’re down to 1 week remaining. I’m trying to decide if I’ll delete my Alexa toolbar after that. The problem I have is that while I can easily hide it in my browser (Firefox) it pops back up every time I restart.

  578. Yeah, Betty, get on board. It does seem to be working.

  579. Ron,
    I suggest that you continue the experiment for several more weeks to generate sufficient sample size.

  580. Honestly, I thought my response was quite measured, non-offensive and was a valid response to being called “dishonest.”

    Apparently Brooke disagreed and sent it to the trash heap.

    I’ll let you guys decide.
    …………………………

    Brooke has allowed posters on her blog to call Carolyn Jessop a “whore.” It’s a biased forum that supports FLDS child molestation and I’m sorry I posted there, I don’t think I will any more.

    The attitude over there seems to be no matter how much proof is presented re: criminal acts, the FLDS are victims of government persecution.

    It’s SO obvious to any rational person that Warren Jeffs is nuts. I just don’t understand what’s wrong with people that they can support him.

  581. I’m not deleting it, it seems like a cool little app, even though it seems to feed off itself.

    { ~ Respect MY AUTHORI-TAY! ~ }

    LMAO

    I suspect he’s got that tattooed as a Huge McTramp stamp!

  582. Ron, try using Alexa in your status bar – very unobtrusive. I see the stat change there every day, but don’t have to see it up top as a toolbar. You should be able to change from toolbar to status bar in Alexa’s Options menu.

  583. Brooke did an interesting thing – she posted the UEP press release, then a day later drops the other shoe, the UEP letter to the FLDS.

    While I would like to think it was to make Wisan look bad, it seems if that was her intent it failed badly.

    To me, both posts show a reasonable Trustee attempting to work with the FLDS.

    Perhaps her point was that in the press release, it was discussed how Warren was a manipulator who caused the UEP to flounder, and so “why would the FLDS listen to Wisan?”

    They need to know the facts, and the fact is, Warren drove the UEP school bus in the ditch, Wisan is just driving the tow truck.

  584. E. Texas

    Thanks for the tip…

  585. Yeah, I thought all his communications were brief, factual, to the point, based in reality. I don’t see any problem. Maybe I am not looking through kaleidoscope glasses.

  586. Anon E Mouse, I’m with you. I don’t know why I started posting there again, maybe because I don’t want to finish doing my taxes, I don’t know.

  587. Betty

    Im thinking it was an attempt to make him look two-faced. Of course, he didnt, nor shouldnt, address Warren in any UEP newsletters.

    However, the FLDS and the public in general need to know how that UEP bus got ditched, there are obviously confused people running about.

    Warren was driving the bus. He crashed it on purpose. This is the reason Wisan is there to rescue it.

    Its sad people dont want to be rescued.

    I reckon that Warren telling them they were all “Rejected of God if they remained in Shortcreek” would have woken them up, but they keep mixing stronger batches of koolaid.

  588. Well, Brooke seems to be using the faux controversy approach to reporting lately. Nothing in either of those two documents was to me controversial, yet she seems to be acting like there is something there.

    On a related issue, I remember her moaning at some point in the past that Wisan had cut her off. Apparently, nothing has changed there since all she relegated to doing is reporting on a press release that apparently was transmitted to her.

    Maybe the faux controversy is a way of axe grinding?

  589. Good point – I just had this feeling she had something embarrassing on Wisan, and the letter was anything but.

    The press release tells how it happened and then the letter shows Wisan carrying them through the disaster.

    To me, it makes him look like a hero – which I think he is, as he has had to battle so much including an impotent legal system in Utah and many people who have refused to help themselves. We’ve seen religious self sacrifice before, and its never pretty and in this case not necessary.

  590. I think Brooke has lost interest in the subject matter, but isn’t ready to let it go.

  591. Are you implying she’s getting sloppy? Well, I kinda thought she had that problem all along.

    But she’s always good for a red herring, even if it has the wrong effect!

  592. Alinusara10 says:

    March 23, 2010 at 6:55 am

    “It seems like typical blame the victim propaganda.”

    ============

    Good point! Of course, it seems that Warren MADE them victims in the first place…..

    Was it where Warren said:

    “Shortcreek, and the people who remain there, are Rejected of God”?

    Or the part where he said:

    “if anybody steps forth to claim those lands and houses that belong to the Lord, they are thieves and they will lose Priesthood . . . and be apostate.”

    If they stay they are Rejected, and /or apostate any way you look at it.

    It seems like Warren has done his work with the FLDS in making them victims.

    Wisan is trying to salvage them from that fate. As far as their religious beliefs, they are in a tight bind if they still consider Warren to be their leader.

  593. I think the actions of Warren S. Jeffs points more focus on his manipulations and intrigues during this whole saga. He located the ‘Lands of Refuge’ outside of Utah and knew full well that UEPTrust assets couldn’t be taken out of Utah. Bruce Wisan has fought the good fight and never been granted the basic records to do the job properly, owing to Rod Parker and Warren Jeffs obstructions. The red Escalade records and accounts are probably the ‘end-game’ to proving frauds, embezzlements and misappropriation of funds. Attorney General Shurtleffs opening of an investigation into the water utility for Short Creek came from some, as of yet, undisclosed records.

    Warren Jeffs apparently was abandoning Short Creek and attempting to establish even more covert enclaves and/or ‘One Man Rule’ gulags to strengthen his grip on the more unquestioning ‘sheeple’. The trend-line of ever escalating negative circumstances and reactions is deeply concerning as to the eventual outcome of these events. This undeclared ‘Holy War’ will worsen if corrective steps and law enforcements actions are not initiated to end this crime wave.

  594. I agree, Judith. I picture her spending most of her time updating her resume and talking to head hunters.

  595. Isn’t her newspaper in significant financial trouble?

  596. Chapter 11, I think.

  597. Yes, Chapter 11, but apparently a deal has been worked out for them to emerge from bankruptcy and continue operations.

  598. Betty: I agree, Judith. I picture her spending most of her time updating her resume and talking to head hunters.
    …………….

    And a blog with a high readership count is a plus on a writer’s resume.

    I got interested in the FLDS after reading several books (Carolyn Jessop, Dorothy Solomon, Jon Krakauer among others) and found my way to Brookes’ blog. However, then I found THIS blog, which scoops her repeatedly on hard news and documentation.

    We’re all entitled to our biases, and we all have them. But journalists are supposed to be unbiased, and she is not – she caters to the pro-FLDS.

    I’m not going to reply on her blog anymore – I would rather discuss the issues here.

  599. As I recall they fought to hold the Escapade docs from LE but failed.

    I think those are still available to prosecuters, it was a completely righteous bust.

  600. Re: The Plural Life Blog. As I said before, I don’t go there, so I don’t know precisely what is being posted or commented on. I suspect the reason she is allowing controversial posters to rampage the comments is for clicks.

    When you read the Plural Life it’s easy to identify the “Pig Parent” saying ‘I’ll control all posts.” The ‘Not-OK-child” rages and reveals juror’s names, trespasses through private cotton fields and gives a youtube tour of Eldorado, by only going down the highway – bypassing The cute little downtown. Declaring war on Natalie Malonis is another big clue. That might be tantamount to a two year old screaming “NO!,” and throwing their sippy cup.

    My impression is rather than an adult edited person, you have a person who flips back and forth between the Not-OK Child and the Pig-Parent. That would indicate someone who is attempting to influence or effect a situation, not assess or report on it.

    Armed with that information it’s up to you whether it’s worth your time or not.

  601. I seldom go to Brooke’s blog and have not posted there for some time. The moderation and limiting of comments did me in. I had comments that were in moderation so long they were almost irrelevant to the discussion when they were finally released. Others just disappeared into a black hole.

  602. Stamp – I just wanted to clarify something. A Not-OK Child is tantamount to someone screaming NO and throwing a sippy cup. Think Willie at a presser.

    Someone acting from an OK Child is a delight to all. Making us all laugh and feel good. You’re our very own OK Child.

  603. She’s posted some interesting stuff from UEP today, but some of it is on the UEP website, so you could go there and read it instead.

  604. Miele

    Thanks, I try! Its been hard to keep a sense of humor some days, other days I cant hold it back.

  605. Read the summary, looks like Warren and Leroy Jeffs are getting told to put up the documents – but its a process that will take a couple-few months.

  606. For the record I have gone over there to read something to be certain I read it in context but NEVER signed on or posted.

  607. But they’ve already been told to put up the documents and they have “answered them nothing.” At what point does a halt finally get called to this stalemate so the fiduciary can proceed?

  608. According to Brooke’s blog and the order linked there, Lindberg is setting a very specific course of action that will take 60 days, after which time she will hear motions for contempt of court for Warren, Leroy, their lawyers, etc., etc., etc……

  609. Let it be. Hurrah! to what Betty said.

  610. brookes blog and message boards at sltrib have crashed

  611. Maybe its a sign Stamp from a power higher than any of us? 🙂

  612. I very rarely ever visit Brooke’s blog at all. I got tired of the pro-FLDS aspect not because I’m anti-FLDS but because they personally attack everyone with a divergent opinion. My stomach was turned by by the shameful treatment of Carolyn Jessop, Elissa Wall and Natalie Malonis all while sucking up to the late Barbara Jessop and big Willie.

  613. I posted three articles on Brooke’s blog about two months ago. She quoted a social worker who stated that there was no published data which indicated that polygamy is associated with an increased risk of abuse.
    Sorry folks, I regret to inform you that there is an increased risk of physical & sexual abuse in polygamous households compared to monogamous households, as documented in many publised studies. I posted three journal articles which refuted the social worker’s assertion.
    Those who responded to my posts claimed that the articles did not have comparative statistics. That was untrue, as statistics were clearly presented in one article, and two other law enforcement statistical documents were cited in my post. My post consisted of citing three articles, yet someone claimed that I was echoing the “screeches of the feminists”

    ?

    If the data doesn’t suit the conclusion they want, the SLTrib board bloggers will toss out insulting diatribes.
    Apparently engaging in intellectual discourse with the group at that blog is impossible, so why bother?

  614. I think you have hit on it, CW. At a few points in the history of this topic, there has been a lot of interest by people who are not regulars. In that case, I think it is a service to our cause to be there to provide a sane voice, and essentially, to steer them here. But, honestly, I have not seen any one new there in months, just the same old crowd.

  615. Betty you do good.

  616. I don’t even read Brooke’s blog unless someone at this site draws attention to one of her posts.
    If you see an opportunity for me to post an article which might be helpful to the discussion at some point, give me a shout and let me know, otherwise, I am not going there.

  617. WATCHING says:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    March 23, 2010 at 8:56 am

    Ma M

    “I have two words that will summerize this entire issue, “domestic terrorism”. I hope FLDS finds relief soon. These families should not be living their lives in fear.”

    ================================

    I hope the FLDS find relief soon as well. Anyone who follows the story knows that Warren booted dozens of men from their homes and families on his whim.

    And he threatens them still, from prison. Does the term “Domestic Terrorism” fit Warrens actions on his own people?

    At some point people have to smell the coffee and take responsibility for their own lives, I think that time is right now.

    ///////////////////////////////////////////////////

    WATCHING says:

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.\

    March 23, 2010 at 10:20 am

    Alinusara10 says:

    March 23, 2010 at 6:55 am

    “It seems like typical blame the victim propaganda.”

    ============

    Good point! Of course, it seems that Warren MADE them victims in the first place…..

    Was it where Warren said:

    “Shortcreek, and the people who remain there, are Rejected of God”?

    Or the part where he said:

    “if anybody steps forth to claim those lands and houses that belong to the Lord, they are thieves and they will lose Priesthood . . . and be apostate.”

    If they stay they are Rejected, and /or apostate any way you look at it.

    It seems like Warren has done his work with the FLDS in making them victims.

    Wisan is trying to salvage them from that fate. As far as their religious beliefs, they are in a tight bind if they still consider Warren to be their leader.

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2010/03/uep-news-release/#comments

  618. Domestic terrorism. Silly. The sky is green, the grass is blue!

  619. MA’s grip on reality is increasingly tenuous. 😉

  620. pathgirl said:

    My stomach was turned by by the shameful treatment of Carolyn Jessop, Elissa Wall and Natalie Malonis all while sucking up to the late Barbara Jessop and big Willie.

    pathgirl, to you I say, “Amen and Amen.”

    As a Texan I also resent the not so subtle snarking of everything having to do with Texas. Be it the Rangers, Judge Walther, or the small west Texas town that didn’t ask for any of this.

    They came, knowingly broke the law, were indicted and convicted.

  621. What gets me about the posters on Brooke’s blog is the refusal to admit any crimes have been committed, and the refusal to admit that it all boils down to Warren Jeffs and his One Man Rule.

    Even after Brooke posts Warren’s own words re: deliberately breaking the law, they still whine about how the FLDS is being victimized and persecuted.

  622. Please continue on Open Discussion #30

    Thank you!

  623. Reminds me of MaryKay, style of writing and thinking, hatred for government, elaborate conspiracy theories, etc.

  624. Ma Matriach is similar – but she is a Wiccan I think from the NE

    See you on thread 30!

  625. If you labeled your preparing as “strategic” then you must hope that it would flawlessly operate
    on a grand scale. It will attain results in a broader industry.

  626. Are we being visited by spammers??? There’s a sudden influx of weird addresses from the UK with comments that don’t address any subject of this forum. Just curious….

  627. It was primarily to take the mickey out of the Americans.

Comments are closed.

 
%d bloggers like this: