Announcement: FLDS Priesthood Records

The FLDS Priesthood Records (i.e., the Warren Jeffs dictations) from 2002 through 2006 were filed in Arizona and we have obtained copies of those records.  These records are thousands of pages of previously undisclosed documents that contain the thoughts and actions of the FLDS over a 4-year period.

Since the records are very voluminous, FLDS Texas and Coram Non Judice are collaborating on a new site, FLDS Priesthood Records.  This site will be used just to post the text of the dictations, as a reference site so to speak, and comments at that site are disabled.  Of course, comments at FLDS Texas and Coram Non Judiceare still available and visitors are more than welcome to comment at either (or both) sites on what they read at FLDS Priesthood Records.

As new posts are made, one or both of our sites with feature links and threads for commenting.

The first records posted are here.


~ by FLDS TEXAS on February 8, 2010.

573 Responses to “Announcement: FLDS Priesthood Records”

  1. Hey did you guys have to pay for this?

    Just when I thought all the other stuff swirling around in my head was finally filed away. And you bring all this? :O

    The site is really really nice. Has a sharp clean look to it AND I can read it with out turning it every which way.

    Wow!! Soooo very much to comment on and I’ve only looked at the first page of 2002.

    In 2002 Warren mentions Holms trial and I think he said two wives were in contempt of court.

    There is just NO way that these guys can say that they didn’t know the laws. NO way that they can say they didn’t know about underage brides.

    I for the life of me can NOT understand why something hadn’t been done years ago. Thousands of people and NO one stepped forward?

    I don’t need medication to make my blood move. Holy cow!! Sacred or not. just WOW!

    Hey if you guys had to pay for all this let me know I want to chip in a little something.

  2. I have one question for now.

    Do you guys have wings? Angels in disguise you guys and gals are. Angels in disguise.

  3. Fantastic.
    Your devotion, energy, and caring are laudable beyond words.

  4. Parker and Piccaretta must be writhing. Oh yeah and some FLDS I could list.

  5. Walton said this on February 8, 2010 at 11:57 AM

    “Hey if you guys had to pay for all this let me know I want to chip in a little something.”


    I never usually post on such a disgusting site, but I couldn’t let this comment pass.

    Ellisa, Carolyn, Brent, Wisan – all these people made tons of money. Trying to destroy the FLDS is a very lucrative occupation.

  6. Cool. More stuff for me not to read.

  7. “This family of father’s and mine is going through a transition, a change of new experiences on all parts. Father’s ladies were required by father to have completely absent from their lives those marital relations, to live clean and pure. My ladies on the other hand had the physical relations to bring forth children according to the laws of God. Now both need to mold together and realize that every one is going through new feelings and experiences. My ladies who were married before father passed on, you must now learn what father’s ladies learned, that true love is the bond of the Spirit of God with your Priesthood head, and if you feel like you have had to sacrifice, this is a step of purification. For father’s ladies who have been sealed you will go through new experiences, feelings and emotions. You will also be tested to make sure that your closeness to me and father is the bond of the Spirit of God. One and all, you will mold together. The two different worlds will mold together in one, guided by father, by the Spirit of God and all of you need to just have patience with me and each other while this transitions time takes place. I have the goal to make us equal in our connections and responsibilities, according to our capacity.”

    Record of President Warren Jeffs
    Wednesday, October 30, 2002

  8. I just started reading and already some things stuck out for me that I thought I’d share 🙂

  9. oooh that is just plain gross

  10. OMG

    These are awesome so many different levels.

  11. Love the autobiography, Warren Jeffs!

  12. Ahh Marykay why did you have to go and say something like that?

    First thing I have to say is that I don’t believe that Bruce Wisan has been paid in full and he AND his team have worked very hard trying to uncover all the trails made by those that were/are hell bent on cheating so many people from the FLDS and elsewhere. Including the tax-payer of which I am one.

    So good job Bruce Wisan and team.

    Now.. No one is destroying the FLDS. If there are any walls crumbling it is from their own doing or should I say their lack of doing.

    For those that have shared their life stories by writing a book or books I say I am glad that they are getting paid.
    After all I believe Flora had hand delivered documents to the AG’s office and they turned her away and did nothing. How dumb was that. It could have been another politician writing a book about how hard they did or did not work.

    I bet it just bites when they have all provided not only their life experiences but brought with them to the table HUGE platefuls of evidence to back up what they have said.

    Today is my birthday and this latest stack of info on such a site is a WONDERFUL present. And you Marykay won’t be able to pop any of my balloons.
    So if I were you Marykay I’d fasten the seat belt and hang on. Things look like they might be getting just a tad bit bumpy for those in denial.

  13. hellohellogoodbye: Yes, and Rulon died September 2, 2002 so it would be less than two months later.

  14. “I taught my family that father comes first. Whenever a wife, in years past, would become emotional because I was not around — she wanted me to do different than what I was doing — I either silently or voicing the truth declared, “I am here to do the will of my father, and if your will doesn’t match that, I choose my father first.” So my ladies very quickly learned that it did no good to voice their feelings. I rejoice that my family, in general, has responded to that training.”

    Monday October 14, 2002
    Record of President Warren Jeffs

  15. FLDS posts are enough to cause one to puke including that one about/by WJ.

  16. GrannyToad: Sorry, I don’t mean to post anything to make anyone sick but damn if it isn’t interesting to mean.

    And no one needs to say anything against Warren when he already says it so eloquently himself!

  17. Nothing seems to make the faithful FLDS more angry than printing the truth of what their leaders have done and said. I wonder why is that?

  18. Alin, we are all quite aware that you are not interested in the truth.

  19. Was Nielsen up Warren’s ass from the get-go, or what?

    Poor Warren.

    No more tanning salons and no more Tony Roma’s.

  20. I do believe that we have previously determined that “MaryKay” is 40andnotmarried/I_am_a_Bigot from the SLTrib/McTinfoilHat’s sites.

  21. I have an OCR program that can take a generic PDF and turn it into a searchable PDF – I’d be happy to volunteer it if the PDF’s aren’t searchable to begin with.

  22. So it was Merrill Jessop who decided Arthur Blackmore didn’t like warren.. and went and told Warren so. All this time Arthur Blackmore wondered why he was kicked out of Flds..Seems it was Merril who saw to it a GOOD man was kicked out!

  23. Alinusara, why wont you read it??? Its not preaching, its Business dictations, how warren decided with his PEA brain that people were against him, or that tattle tales were telling him lies, and how he called those who decided to go to Winston Blackmore damned, and how when they did that they were damned to death.

    Yeah, Alin,,, you don’t want to read what a “nice guy” warren is??

  24. Alin is ignorant and uniformed, but apparently wants to stay that way. Oh well, we know how much attention to pay to his pitiful posts___NONE

  25. Warren making statements, Like, the government can’t take this or that from us, because it belongs to UEPtrust. Well guess what? YEs they can!

  26. Rebecca Muser committed no crime! She was married to rulon jeffs, and he DIED! Warren wanted her to marry him and she said NO!!!! So she left with Ben Musser,, which she had every right to do…
    Yet warren calls her every name in the book!!

  27. Alin is ignorant and uniformed, but apparently wants to stay that way.
    Yes, that’s why I think posting excerpts from the dictations is an effective way to get Alin to shut up.

  28. Hey there,

    Just wanted to say THANKS to FLDS Texas and Coram Non Judice for all their work. I think a lot of times we get so used to the ‘ease’ of the internet we forget that getting documents online does take much more than a click. a lot more.

    THANKS! 🙂

  29. Ron in Houston said:

    I have an OCR program that can take a generic PDF and turn it into a searchable PDF – I’d be happy to volunteer it if the PDF’s aren’t searchable to begin with.

    I, an inveterate but highly interested lurker, am poking my head in here to see if/how you can share that with me? I just go NUTS when I can’t search stuff like this.

  30. For gosh sakes – Al-in not wanting to read the dictations is just another sign that Al-in is Pliggy. Pliggy said the same thing.

    If you’re going to comment on a situation generally you’re going to want to be informed about it. Every Southern Baptist from Tennessee knows this.

    I mean come on – he has all this inside information about Merrill Jessop. How? Well, he must have either read a bunch of stuff or he’s FLDS. Since apparently he doesn’t want to read the information being spoon fed to him, he’s clearly FLDS. Judging by how much he’s online, he’s simply GOT to be Pliggy.

  31. myeasttexas said:

    I, an inveterate but highly interested lurker, am poking my head in here to see if/how you can share that with me? I just go NUTS when I can’t search stuff like this.

    The program is called Omnipage Pro. While I’ve often been known to “lend” someone a program to try, this one is quite large (over 100 mb.)

    You can do the same thing with the full version of Acrobat basically it takes the PDF image and OCR’s it into an image with searchable text behind it.

    If you have a bit of the inner buccaneer you can probably find either program on sites like the Pirate Bay or Isohunt.

  32. Ron,
    Believe me, I have more than “a bit.” 😀

    Thank you!!

  33. From November 8, 2002:
    After talking to Kelly Fischer on the phone:
    When you are doing the Lord’s will you are not
    guilty. We will not plead guilty to what we are
    doing right. This people need to humble
    themselves. If they can get one, they can get many.
    We need the Lord to fight this battle. Our lawyers
    want him to plead guilty. They say they will have a
    lesser charge, and the Attorney-Generals say they
    won’t do any more if these will plead guilty.
    Question: What do they mean they will make the
    charge less?
    They just make it a misdemeanor charge. I have
    only one answer and that is father’s. He said, “God
    damn them to hell, and that is not swearing.” He
    said, to me, “I have declared war on the whole
    world. I defy the whole world, God being my

  34. This shows who declared war first, Warren Jeffs or Bruce Wisan? And it was, for sure, Warren Jeffs. I have to question which “people” need to humble themselves?

    More and more, I am convinced, that if there is one horrible mistake that these people have made, it is to believe that one man’s whims are the word of God, and to even question him is to turn your back on God. To turn over trivial details of your life, even down to the names of your children. To not only believe that children and women can ‘belong’ to someone, but to believe that they belong to someone other than their own biological parents is barbaric. How can anyone understand that one fact about them and NOT understand that they are a dangerous and destructive cult? If you lack even the slightest amount of skepticism, then anything can be taken from you, even your own integrity and sense of right and wrong. And it is the most bizarre form of hubris on the part of the prophet to act out that charade.

  35. Wow, this speaks volumes about Warren’s mental health:
    Same date as above.
    “1 repeat the discipline of my boys and girls to
    you mothers. 1 don’t like the boys to handle the
    girls, only under a mother’s immediate care do
    boys hold the girl babies. Even if we are in a
    Priesthood home, we are mortal and subject to

    Babies! Whoa.

  36. The PDF’s should be searchable. I think they have already been OCR’d

  37. “Girls babies” there yu go,,, he absoultely doesn’t call them mothers or women but girls!

  38. So,, if a boy holds a “girl” baby,, he might get BAD temptations!! what an friggin asshole of a man Warren Jeffs is!!

  39. “…the Attorney-Generals say they won’t do any more if these will plead guilty.”

    Interesting claim in itself.

  40. FLDS TEXAS and Corum Non Judice – Thank you both so very much.

    Warren sez:

    We knew we were toast, but See’yaz FREDs Love, Fred.

  41. Oh, and a huge thank you FLDS TEXAS.

    These tell quite a tale.

  42. Wait a minute. It ate my Warren Sez. What Warren said was:

    “Those who will not survive. The criticizers; and secondly it is the criticizers of the criticizers.”

  43. Not that Warren was ever critical of anyone, mind you.


  44. Twist, as we speak, I’m criticizing myself for typing Corum instead of Coram. When I’m done, I’ll criticize myself for criticizing me. I do this because I don’t want to go to their sweet keeping hell hole.

  45. Never critical, nor worthy of mocking, Twist. Just stuff like:

    Recorded “I do my Father’s Will.” (With accompaniment by the non pingy pangy S’Crik band?)

    “You have an agency under yourself.” (Willam Morris?)

    Wives feel they are neglected = duh finition of polygamy

  46. Warren trolling for brides on November 1, 2002 —

    Talking to the 8th Grade Girls

    Good morning. Smiles on? What is your age?
    [12 to 15 years].

  47. Yeah, I read that, TT, creeped me out. He also tells them to write a letter to their fathers that they are longing to take do the will of the Priesthood. Ugh.

  48. And to become a mother in Zion, Betty.

    So be it.

  49. From October 14, 2002 – Now don’t all warren’s wives just feel sooooo special.

    “I taught my family that father comes first. Whenever a wife, in years past, would become emotional because I was not around — she wanted me to do different than what I was doing — I either silently or voicing the truth declared, “I am here to do the will of my father, and if your will doesn’t match that, I choose my father first.” So my ladies very quickly learned it did no good to voice their feelings.”

  50. A number of problems I have…
    The founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith declared that inspiration cannot be used to condemn a man, yet warren is using dreams to destroy people.

    Second, if he would lay off the porn, he might quit having dreams where the priesthood girls are in swimsuit, and men are naked, and using that to condemn people.

    Third, why is he so paranoid that everyone else is lusting after his father’s wives.

  51. Yes, the daily lectures to the wives (over the intercom, no less, how impersonal, like the Principle reading announcements in school!) repeat over and over the same words. The women are supposed to do everything and anything to please him and they are supposed to smile the whole time; also if they are trying to express their own feelings or get anything for themselves or their children they are wrong by definition.

  52. Aw, c’mon now, cement.

    I get a kick out of his nekkid men dreams.

    Except for the part where he rips someone’s family away because of the dream.

  53. Betty,

    Response: Yes.


  54. Well, third, people tend to accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of.

  55. “I taught my family that father comes first. Whenever a wife, in years past, would become emotional because I was not around — she wanted me to do different than what I was doing — I either silently or voicing the truth declared, “I am here to do the will of my father, and if your will doesn’t match that, I choose my father first.” So my ladies very quickly learned it did no good to voice their feelings.”

    … and now we know why Utah has the highest use of antidepressants in the nation…
    I would love to see a breakdown of antidepressant medication usage by zip code in Utah…wanna make a bet the short creek zip code accounts for the highest usage…

  56. It is interesting (sick)how he uses people’s desires to know and feel God to direct to his own ends (i.e. marrying all his father’s wives makes him his father (the prophet)). In each and every case he continually harps on his father and feeling his father’s presence and how his father is directing these women to come to him to fulfill his “seed”

    I always wondered why he had to have so many wives and he states on p. 210 that the world is to be repopulated through the family of the prophet…. so that is his excuse to sucking up all the women and making it harder and harder for the remaining men to get a wife which then drives down the age of marriage.

    Another interesting thing was on p. 129 of Sept. 23 in which he states that he would bring these girls to his father to marry but it was not his decision it was always the prophets decision of which of the girls to marry. Well duh – bring them to him and he’ll say yes.

    How about that “special handshake” of old Rulon

  57. OK, this is just GROSS – October 15, 2002

    Graveside Services for Valissa Allred Jeffs
    Infant Daughter of Nathanael Allred Jeffs and Lovisa Roundy
    At the Baby Cemetery in Hildale, Utah
    October 15, 2002

    She was born on March 23, 2002, at Hildale, and passed away October the 14, 2002 at St. George Hospital. (Making her 6 months old)

    “This little child passes on pure and clean. Our Holy Prophet (meaning dead Rulon) is in this event. He revealed to us, his family, that after his sister Aunt Leona would pass on, she would be sealed to him by proxy,”

    Is warren saying that this little six month baby is being sealed (married) to 90 something year old dead Rulon by proxy?

  58. I once spent some time with a family of “spiritualists” and everything, dreaming, and action, was interpreted as having significance as a message from the spirits beyond. Every part of the disfunctional family feels could be turned into an interpretation…..that’s what this sounds like.

    In that spiritualist family the eldest daughter could take on the role traditionally (in the culture I was in at the time) for the first son by becoming a medium for the spirits – this meant that all of the jealousy could be worked out by great demonstrations of the spirit in control….

  59. Sadie,

    No, that isn’t what he’s saying.

    The posthumous sealing by proxy to Aunt Leona is a reference to Rulon’s sister Leona who would have been the great-grandmother to the deceased child (and namesake).

    Rulon was sealed to his sister Leona (apparently by proxy after her death) because her first husband Rulon Clark Allred was one of the great apostates in the 1950’s schism. Leona never remarried and needed an e-ticket to the CK.

    You have to include Warren’s next words which were “and the children and the posterity through Aunt Leona would be father’s.”

    What he is saying is that the child belonged to Rulon spiritually, but not figuratively.

  60. Scratch the namesake of Leona’s part, but the child was Leona’s great-granddaughter.

  61. hey, is anyone on RIGHT NOW…? the local cops picked up Ruth Cooke and “escorted” her out of town…well she walked back, and proceeded to pick up where she left off, which was picking up garbage from off the side of the road near the great and spacious building (the meeting house)..a couple of FLDS men beat Ruth up for coming back…and then on top of that the cops picked her up and took her to the other side of town and told her never to come back…how’s that for AWESOME POLICE WORK!!!??? all I can say is W T F

  62. What kind of a game is King Flag?

    Besides something Warren doesn’t like.

  63. Marykay FU,
    Love Fred

  64. Michelle is Engels in Town?

  65. Pardon my lack of manners. I should have said “Marykay welcome aboard” and FU,
    Love Fred

  66. Happy Birthday Walton!

    Love Fred

  67. Law Enfarcement supports beating up a woman for picking up trash. Another one for the Civil Rights crew eh.

  68. Don’t know why I wasted so many hours today to read Warren’s drivel.
    A lot centers around the division of people leaving for Canada because they felt he had no biblical right to marry his fathers ‘ladies’.
    Warren even said that Jesus was murdered by the Romans because of his ladies. That’s the second time in his drivel that he alluded to Jesus having several wives.
    VVeerrry interesting?!
    That’s not general Mormon belief is it?

  69. OMG, Michelle is Ruth OK? Did she go to the hospital? Did someone call the county sheriff?

  70. Is there anyone out there that can check on Ruth?

  71. So it was Merrill Jessop who decided Arthur Blackmore didn’t like warren.. and went and told Warren so. All this time Arthur Blackmore wondered why he was kicked out of Flds..Seems it was Merril who saw to it a GOOD man was kicked out!

    deputydog1 said this on February 8, 2010 at 2:15 PM

    Merril and Art were in business together on a number of deals. If you have read “Escape” Carolyn says that she was “married” to Merril as a business deal so Art wouldn’t sue Merril if his daughter was “married” to him. (Although Merril thought he was getting her sister as his latest bride instead of Carolyn). He must have been napping and got the names of the 2 girls mixed up.

    Yep that POS Merril probably did rat Art out.

  72. I just called Gary and got his voicemail. I asked him to check on Ruth or call a Mohave Deputy to check on her.

  73. What the hell!! Ruth Cooke is not a threat to anyone,, how much more can they do to this poor lady???

  74. I just spoke with both the MCSO and Gary and this incident happened yesterday and a report has been made and it is being followed up on. It is my understanding this getting “beaten up” did not just happen today and Ruth is OK but was pushed around by the local cops and hurt somewhat.

    I don’t think she is in any immediate danger tonight.

  75. this really pisses me off, she has no other place to go, and i dont give shit if she is xflds or not , there is such a thing as compassion and caring!!!!

  76. These people aren’t loving families, they are HORROR stories!

  77. I will make a promise to everyone that reads this thread, Gary Engels and the mohave deputies better follow up, or Im contacting the AG offic in UTAH my self.

  78. those warrenloving crikers need to leave ruth alone. maybe she should get a restraining order against the whole lot of them so they can join warren in the cellosteel kingdom.

  79. deputydog1 a report has been made about the rough handling Ruth endured by the local cops. But it would need to be a followup to the Arizona AG not the Utah AG. Although it wouldn’t hurt for the Utah AG to know that the local cops roughed up an innocent woman, since they are cross-deputized by POST in both states.

    Gary cares and will make sure Ruth is OK, but legally it is now in the hands of the MCSO since they took the report. They are the county deputies. Gary is an investigator with the County Attorney’s Office.

    And, according to Jim Bradshaw who is Allen Steed’s lawyer, Gary is NOT a law enforcement officer.

  80. Dell or Dale…I don’t know which one and some other guy did the “beating up”…oh, and I forgot to say that she was told never to go into the local grocery store either…talk about a one two “punch”…poor thing I feel so bad for her

  81. is ruth in utah or in arizona? i have never been sure what side she lived on, but i’m with ya on making sure it’s followed up on and she’s taken care of. i loved her in banking on heaven.

  82. Dale or Dell Barlow is what I meant to say….sorry

  83. hey twist, when we get to the crik, we’re looking up the dale/dell person.

  84. the idiot who’s on probation? if so, shouldn’t this be grounds for revoking it and giving him a room in the cellosteel kingdom all his own?

  85. Michelle or Anonymous @9:18, if you can get in touch with Ruth will you please let her know that there are people out here willing to help her?

  86. I tell you ProudTexan, we are bringing horsewhips with us and will not be afraid of using them!

  87. I think Ruth is currently living on the AZ side.

    Michelle, Ruth has been posting on the TexasPolygamy blog since the 1st of the year about how badly she has been treated by Robert Knudson and others at the CMC. They have told her not to be there and if she goes in there, she is trespassing.

    A fine bunch of righteous ones the FLDS are!

  88. LadySadie you’d better ship those out ahead of you cause I don’t think they allow horsewhips on airplanes, considering they don’t allow nail clippers anymore.

  89. I for one will not be at all surprised if Ruth gets disappeared. This bunch is capable of it.

  90. how bout numchunks sadie? i’ve got a set of those.

  91. anon@9:33, i’m driving. i want to see the countryside.

  92. PT, think I will fly into Texas and hop a ride with you, we can stock up on horsewhips and numchucks!

    If there are any FLDS lurkers reading this, this is no way to endear yourselves to the general public, mistreating a helpless woman! If Ruth gets disappeared there will be QUESTIONS asked from all across the United States. Man up and PROVE you have some compassion, take CARE of Ruth, give her the home she deserves and make sure she is taken care of!

  93. I seriously LOVE the idea of all of you ppl coming to the town to “sight see” and possibly put on your own parade…we can have a big party at the park I will set it up and everything!!! just give me a date and i will take care things on this end 🙂

  94. I was afraid something like that was going to happen to Ruth although I am surprised that the local cops were involved. So sad. I hope she sues. The really sad thing is she will likely stay in CC the rest of her life.

    Michelle – do you know if Ruth knew the men who allegedly beat her up when she returned to town? Just wondering if there are named suspects or not. I’m not asking for names. Also, did she tell you about this or did you hear about it from someone else?

  95. yes, she knew them everyone does around here. and of course the cops are going to do as little as possible to find who ever did this too her. I heard it from a reliable source…

  96. Then the AG of Arizona needs to get involved in this, this should NOT be happening anywhere, especially in a so called religious group. Ruth has problems but she isn’t dangerous to people.

  97. michelle, we’re looking in july. sadie picked the date and me and twist were agreeable with it, so for now its a go on our end. we’re gonna see the grand canyon so we can say it was educational and of course i’ll have my camera to take some candid shots. probably be about 10 at least, depends on who all is available.

    is melinda fischer’s house in hildale or cc? i for sure what to see that and check out the neighborhood around it.

    we’ll need a tour guide if you want to volunteer.

  98. for sure!!!! it will be great…I can get a whole bunch of ppl on my end to “educate” all of you 🙂 🙂 🙂 that should be entertaining to say the least…we usually have a party on the 24th of July where we have activities, food and fun and yes, tours are avail at a very reasonable price (free) and as a bonus Melinda’s house he he he

  99. i’m going to have to figure out the best way to drive from say lubbock texas to the crik. we’ve been told to stay in st george as they have reasonable rates. but truth be known, melinda’s house looks big enough to hold us all.

  100. who trumps who law enforcement wise? i know the local cops are at the bottom of the totem pole, but would a texas ranger have jurisdiction in utah/arizona?

  101. ya think we could get on warren’s visitor’s list at the cellosteel kingdom? i think twist has a whole passle of questions for him. she’s been taking notes while going through the dictations.

  102. I know this can be a heavy lesson for you. We
    usually leave it to those in charge. They will judge and we don’t touch it. In this present test, this is what they are accusing the authority of. One young man in Canada said, “I don’t believe Warren is the One Man. I don’t want to follow someone who breaks up families.” So they have a spirit of sympathy for the wrongdoer. This is a dangerous, evil spirit, the spirit of sympathy for the
    wrong-doer. Pray for them that they will repent, but you stand for the right. If you have the love of God in you, you don’t join in sympathizing with evil or you will start to do that evil.

    Father had me put a test on Winston Blackmore.
    He said, “Tell Winston to put Vanessa Rohbock
    out of his house and then ask the Lord to take her in death. Pray the Lord to handle her in His time.”
    Such a simple thing – put her outside the house, make sure she is cared for, of course, but don’t uphold anything against the Lord and the Prophet.
    He chose the woman over the Prophet. He
    sympathized with her sins against the Prophet.

    That is the foundation, not just her, but all the ways he sympathized against the Prophet for all these men the Prophet handled. That is the foundation of this present pruning.

    As I meet these people and they accuse us of being evil, doing father’s will in
    exercising justice, they are falling away.

    That is why I gave you this lesson today, because we are right in the middle of it right today.

    Warren Jeffs October 29, 2002 page 282

  103. Texas Rangers’ bailiwick is Texas unless in pursuit, I’d guess. That’s the whole thing with they play acting in AZ, they aren’t giving Texas due respect accorded in the US Constitution.

  104. From Lubbock mmmm something like 27 to 40 Amarillo, west to Flagstaff to … 80 or 189, some number north? … I kinda forget. I wonder what would tell you to do. Sometimes it’s real stupid.

  105. C-M said this:
    “That’s the second time in his [Warren’s] drivel that he alluded to Jesus having several wives.
    VVeerrry interesting?!
    That’s not general Mormon belief is it?”

    Can’t say if it is general Mormon belief, but it is definitely FLDS belief.

  106. About an hr ago, Ruth posted on Texaspolygamy, saying she is ‘fine’ and thanks people for their concern. Here:

  107. holy freaking cow!!! I have just spent the last 3 hours looking over this trainwreck. Looking forward to 2003, and 2005 in particular

  108. Brigham Young and his counsil taught the doctrine of Jesus having multiple wives… yet another doctrine the current church sweeps under the rug

  109. Anon.Fred thank you for the Birthday Wishes.

    Michelle- Please keep us posted concerning Ruth. I really like her and I have a lot of respect for her.

  110. I just left a comment over at Texas Polygamy for Ruth. I didn’t know that site was still active.

    Does anyone know if Uncle Duff still posts there?

  111. OftenLate – I checked with mapquest and yahoo maps and both sent me a round about way, one time through Colorado and the other time through Las Vegas. I want the straight arrow way, not the round about way.

  112. i haven’t been over there in a while walton, but i think there are people checking on ruth after the alarm was sounded earlier. i was glad to see mc1199 report that ruth posted to say she was ok.

    oncebitten, it is amazing how one man can wreck so many lives. and if brigham taught that jesus had multiple wives then he was just trying to justify his own taking of multiple wives. my bible gives no indication of jesus being married once, much less many times.

  113. Morning ProudTexan

    I’ve been up most the night reading.

    All joking aside. Does anyone here think that maybe Warren had a split personality? or that he suffered from some form or forms of mental illness? Do you suppose we will ever know?

  114. Second, if he would lay off the porn, he might quit having dreams where the priesthood girls are in swimsuit, and men are naked, and using that to condemn people.

    I wonder if that’s the reason he ostracized Pliggy who despite his banning remained a very loyal Warrenite.

  115. I thought they had him on medication in prison.

    I don’t know whether the whole group dynamics/belief system is crazy or if he really has some sort of health problem I don’t know.

    There was a story told in the very first document about his father taking a child away from one younger healthier woman and ‘giving’ it to a woman who had health problems and an early hysterectomy. The story was told by the receiving woman as an example of the great kindness of Rulon, but I thought it was absolutely horrible. Maybe he just learned narcissistic sadism from his daddy and took it up another notch.

  116. Ron, I’ve never gotten a straight answer on that.

  117. Sunday, November 10 Priesthood Meeting

    “The guards at the door asked every person, ‘Are you in full support of Uncle Warren?'”

    What a pleasant way to start Sunday morning worship.

  118. But no fear, please.

    No fear in Warren’s perfect world.

    Even if he has laid the threats on thick throughout his “trainings”.

    No fear.

    What an unholy terror.

  119. There was a story, and I can’t remember now where I read it, but it was in a first person account of living in polygamy by a woman, but not the woman involved. The story is of a man who had a rather young wife, and he took some home porn pictures, made copies and distributed them in mail boxes of his fellow church members. Apparently the priesthood ignored this officially until a group of women had an angry fit in a public meeting asking in what way this act was an advancement of spiritual development. The man was later ousted.

  120. I don’t know how to copy and paste from these documents.

    Page 15 left hand side Warren says that they all are getting quite related.

    On page 25 Wendall says: “She is kind of like your daughter.”

    Where is the rest of page 14?

    And who is Patrica Keate?

  121. I can’t remember which Doctor or Doctors made the evaluation but they said he was “depressed”. or “showing signs” of depression.

    But the more I read and hear I am thinking the man shows signs of schizophrenia.

    I’m not a Doctor and I have never read the personal accounts of any other Prophet but I have met some people that were schizophrenic.

  122. Walton, it looks like page 14 of that document is complete, but is at the end of a segment of dictation.

    PT can correct me if I’m wrong, but Patricia Keate is either a sister or niece to Allen Keate.

    She was one of Rulon’s wives and in the first batch of seven that Warren married.

    Warren gives a bit of background on when Patricia was in high school at Alta Academy. It’s pretty obvious that Warren put his eye on her back then, but he projects that upon his younger brother Enoch who is more her age and may have also had a crush on her.

    In one of the other dictations there is an odd out-of-place comment “Trish is gorgeous.”

    There isn’t any context around it that I can see, but I don’t know of any of Warren’s (or Rulon’s) wives it could be other than Patricia.

    Patricia Keate Jeffs is one of Warren’s favored wives and also one of his record keepers.

    I’ll look at the Warren and Wendell comments and see if I can understand their context.

    Worth mentioning is that document contains records from 2006, not 2002.


    If Warren was schizophrenic it wouldn’t excuse what he did and it surely doesn’t excuse the behaviour of those around him.

  124. I only know enough about schizophrenia to say that it’s complex and not necessarily what the generalizations about it would make you think. I’m kind of an expert on manic-depressive, though; my previous husband was bipolar.

  125. PT look at a map, go the way I told you, north to hit 40, west to about Flagstaff then north again. There just aren’t so many roads out west. Getting around’s always been easy for me since Eisenhower had all these interstates built for us with our tax money, and road are numbered even east-west, odd like the 5s go north-south.

  126. The list of delusions on this page sound like a real match;

  127. Apostate Potluck and Gentile Mixer.
    This is starting to sound like a real happening!

  128. Split personality and its other names through time like multiple personality disorder, and schizophrenia have nothing in common other than being mental illnesses. Sz usually hear voices (in their mind), or the same effect but described in some other manner as messages from satellites or whatever. They have delusions but medication doesn’t keep that from happening, only slows down the roiling mental effects. Without medication sz may get really nutty psychotic. They’re in general very fearful folk, someone’s out to get them or get us all, and they dream up whole worlds about what they know about it and you don’t. Generally too they’re less harmful to others than the average human, even though one may feel fearful around them and their ranting strange ideas.

  129. No, no, no. Warren is a sociopath! So was Joseph Smith. I’ve known more than one.

  130. Best I can tell, Walton, is that the “related” and “family” references are to them becoming one big happy family in the CK.

    That and the persons receiving those ordinances were wives of Merril, Wendell and Warren — the First Presdinency.

    That set of documents contains a good amount of the ritual involved in some of their temple ordinances. I’ve been saving last of these to try to dissect.

    I did note this from one of the pages you referenced where Warren says, “What takes place here must be kept confidential.”


    Seems Warren’s wrecklessness and delusions of infallibility messed that up, too.

  131. Presidency — need more coffee.

  132. Alinusara, why wont you read it???
    Because invading people personal lives is voyeuristic. I don’t go that way.

  133. merril’s gives a smart ass answer to warren’s comment about them all getting quite related.

    Merril Jessop: “Relatively speaking”

  134. Apostate Potluck and Gentile Mixer

    And so it was written.

    I love it.

  135. Because actually getting the facts would poke a huge hole in his arguments?

  136. If Warren was schizophrenic it wouldn’t excuse what he did and it surely doesn’t excuse the behaviour of those around him.

    Well, I suppose it depends on what you mean by “excuse.” It could dramatically change the level of criminal culpability.

    Generally you’re right about accomplices. Unless they claim something like folie a deux, they should be held legally culpable.

  137. Patricia Keate is the 2nd daughter of Allan Eugene and his first wife Nancy Carol Bauer. She is a full sister to Veda and Rachel who are the victims in cases in Texas.

  138. I gave up coffee last fall. Oddly, I don’t feel bad or slow in the morning more than about the first half hour. It occurred to me that I didn’t need coffee because I was sleepy, I was sleepy because I needed coffee.

  139. Because invading people personal lives is voyeuristic. I don’t go that way.

    BS Pliggy. They’re actually labeled: “Record of President Warren Jeffs.” It’s hardly like reading someone’s personal diary.

    Besides, the only personal lives mentioned in there are the ones Warren is invading.

  140. I gave up coffee last fall. Oddly, I don’t feel bad or slow in the morning more than about the first half hour. It occurred to me that I didn’t need coffee because I was sleepy, I was sleepy because I needed coffee.

    Most common drug addiction? Caffeine.

  141. Alinusara- if it would have turned out that Warren showed the world that he could walk on water these very same documents would have not only been shown to the members of the FLDS but shown to the world by Warren himself.
    However it is quite obvious that Warren didn’t walk on water but did quite the opposite.
    Evil writings confirming evil doings performed by an evil man. And what is worse is it was condoned by all those around him.
    The world and yes especially those in the FLDS should see this so they better understand why they WILL see members of this CULT moving to jail.

  142. Hey you guys I know we aren’t suppose to “out” people but is Alinusara really Pliggy?

    Pliggy is that really you?

    If it is you Pliggy can you tell me what the heck happened to Ruth?

  143. Alin – in the immortal words of Fred, FU!!!

    If warren wasn’t so intent on ruining other lives no one would care what his dictations said. people are trying to get answers for themselves and to help the others who have been destroyed and had their families destroyed by him.

  144. Al-in is Pliggy. Trollish behavior – willful ignorance? Who else could it be?

  145. Pliggy would you do me a favor? Would you please go to your local paper and tell them what happened to Ruth. And then could you please hook up with Gary Engles and tell him that Walton wants to help anyway I can to make sure that charges are brought against who ever did this.

    You know I would do the same for you if you asked.


  146. ron – what are the rules for appealing? if it was 90 days from date of sentence then it was yesterday and nothing was filed in the 3rd court of appeals.

  147. TexasTwist I also noticed that the document that is dated Oct. 1-4, 2002 is really the dictations from Jan. 14-17, 2006.

    Maybe FLDS Texas can fix this.

  148. Walton – we’ll never know. Pliggy is a truck driver so he moves around the country and wouldn’t have a IP traceable to one area of the country.

    It had always been my suspicion especially given the screen name. However, the inside knowledge by someone who apparently refuses to read the only source of much of that inside knowledge tells me that Al-in clearly is FLDS.

    Probably one of the few FLDS “worldly” enough to actually pull off the troll is Pliggy.

    Besides Pliggy would be immediately discounted. Maintaining the fiction that I’m “Alinusar10” and that I’m a Baptist from Tennessee at least keeps him from being totally written off.

  149. Well if it is Pliggy he knows me well enough. I know Pliggy travels around and it wouldn’t kill him to step up.
    Pliggy also knows despite our little bickering that I care.

    Pliggy could help if he wanted to.

    Pliggy if it is you just buck up and do it.

  150. if alin10 is a baptist from tennessee, they practice a different kind of baptistry than we do here in texas.

  151. PT – Only the “Notice of Appeal” must be filed by the 90 day deadline. Technically that’s filed in the trial court (although the rules allow a copy to be filed in the COA.)

    It gets noted on the appeals court docket once the person files a docketing statement with the COA.

    So, some delay is generally expected.

  152. Any of you locals could call the Schleicher county district clerk and check on the Notice of Appeal.

  153. Notice of Appeal has been filed in Schleicher County and was done so last week if I’m remembering correctly.

  154. yes, i know the notice has been filed, i just wasn’t sure if it had to be filed in the COA before the 90 day deadline.

  155. “Most common drug addiction? Caffeine.”


    I don’t drink alcohol anymore so I’m clinging to a few other vices and coffee is one I really love.

  156. Texastwist did you also notice that Warren mentioned that the Temple should be “cleansed”. But 3rd floor was not to be touched.

    There goes the theory that the cleaning crew or janitor were in that room.

  157. I’m really curious about the Allen Steed ruling that was supposed to come out last Friday. Haven’t heard a peep.

  158. Thanks for the info on Patricia, PT.

  159. Can someone check with the Steed court and see if there was a ruling issued that we missed.

  160. Or the gardener, Walton.

    My minimal understanding of the temple ordinances and heirarchy for access is that each level requires a different level of ordination before one could enter it.

    Not unlike the heirarchy of the heavens.

    In one of his previously released dications, Warren is very specific about who is to clean which floor.

    I don’t even want to know what it takes to be permitted to clean his sacred toilet, but I’ve updated my burial instructions to include Playtex gloves.

    Just in case.

  161. good idea twist, maybe i should do the same

  162. Well, well, well. Accepting a marriage before I came to my senses and then later deciding Warren isn’t a prophet makes me a liar, because I accepted him as a prophet at the time of my marriage.

    My wife chuckles at one of my first comments upon leaving. “I can now be honest for a change”

  163. you go cement!!!

    and crikers, keep those cards and letters (money) flowing to warren now, he’s got legal bills to pay and merril need money for his child support.

  164. Is Allen Steed the same Allen Glade Steed that Warren gave the brand new GMC truck to in 2002??? Warren goes to Allen Steeds company, and driving a brand new GMC pickup, and gathers all employees around and makes a big speech about how RIGHTEOUS Allen Steed is, and everyone should be LIKE Him and then gives the keys to the truck to Allen, and says, “Its all yours, paid for $45.000.

  165. yep, that would be him.

  166. Actually I think that Allen Steed would be Allen Woodruff Steed formerly of Steeds, Inc. and excommunicated by Warren in August/September 2004.

  167. “I told Allen to make certain his young wives were with child.”


  168. wonder if that Allen woodruff Steed got to take his pickup with him?? And wonder what he did that ended up getting him kicked out

  169. Patricia Keate Jeffs is one of Warren’s favored wives and also one of his record keepers.

    Patricia Keate is the 2nd daughter of Allan Eugene and his first wife Nancy Carol Bauer. She is a full sister to Veda and Rachel who are the victims in cases in Texas.
    So “keeping sweet” while your husband molests your little sister is a grand FLDS tradition.

    – Patricia Keate is the older sister of V. Keate
    – Naomie Jessop is the older sister of I. Jessop
    – Monica Sue Jessop and Mildred Annie Jessop are older sisters of M. Jessop.

  170. Allen betrayed YFZ to the Gentiles in a meeting with officials in Eldorado. Anyone who betrays anything about the mission will be handled; that’s in there. I can’t give references when recalling from memory, just like the previous post about Allen Keate.

    Now, for a silly dream about Allen. Warren was in a dentist’s chair being operated on by the “apostate Dan Fischer” when suddenly Dan turns into Allen Steed, so the Lord then revealed his heart.

  171. Well thats horse crapola!! LOL

  172. Warren needs to quit the LSD!!! Bad trips on that stufff

  173. This business of ‘increasing and increasing,’ is that something coming from Warren, or is it a tenet of the Mormon faith?

    Anyone know?

  174. Here is radio interview with some background on the Nat Geo Article – notice he says they first had to get approval from weenie warren and that the “approval came and went” and it would come down and they would have no access for weeks. Thinks people they had access to were only the ones that the leaders approved and they were not allowed access to the general population.

    In other words the entire Nat Geo article was scripted by weenie warren.

    [audio src="" /]

  175. In 2002 Mother Patrica was giving testimony about rulon Jeffs last days, she says in October 1998 rulon decided changes would be made. They closed the school in Salt lake and moved south. He put Ron Robock in charge of selling the houses and additions.
    A year later rulon had performed over 305 marriages. And had begun dealing with families, unworthy men. he did not ask question, but went foward with what he needed to do.


    Seems to me Rulon was as much a tyrant and fruit cake as Warren

  176. Not really, deputydog1.
    Even before the migration south, Rulon had become more debilitated than most people either knew or admitted. Most of what went on after LeRoy Johnson passed and Rulon became President/Prophet, was Warren taking advantage of that fact behind the scenes. Rulon “went forward with what he needed to do” largely at Warren’s advice.

  177. i think warren’s fine hand is in the pie long before he starts his dictating.

  178. Rulon Jeffs had a stroke in 1998 so there have been many questions as to who was directing what after his stroke.

    Much of what I’m reading in these 2002 missives from Warren is him working really, really hard to dispel any thinking that he may have unduly influenced his father after his stroke.

  179. Thanks for that link, Sadie.

    Good find.

  180. Walter Scott: “oh, what a web we weave when first we practice to deceive”

  181. You know, the physical fits or seizures sound a bit like schizophrenia.

  182. Yuppers they sure do!

  183. LeRoy was receiving heavenly sessions and having his wife record them. Apparently, only Warren was allowed to receive revelation this way, and it irked him that Leroy was also doing it.

    LeRoy’s first wife became possessed of the devil when LeRoy got handled, but he cut her some slack because she was in menopause.

    Sometimes, I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry.

  184. Looking at his build, in particular arm length to body proportions, he looks slightly Marfanian.

    The fits seem to correlate with eating ‘lightly’ or not at all. Apparently he obtains relief by lying down.

    I don’t think he’s schizo. From what I’ve read it seems to me that Rulon was suffering from multiple system ailments. He’s claiming Rulon’s authority by claiming to have assumed his ailments.

    Fawning wives reinforce this by competing for his attention, especially relating their ‘special’ observations to family members not privileged to observe it. Possibly this was a factor in increasing this behavior, or at the least reinforcing it’s validity.

  185. What would fits/seizures have to do with schizophrenia? Have you ever heard of that?

  186. There are a lot of mistaken beliefs about schizophrenia and what it is.

  187. “LeRoy was receiving heavenly sessions and having his wife record them. Apparently, only Warren was allowed to receive revelation this way, and it irked him that Leroy was also doing it.

    LeRoy’s first wife became possessed of the devil when LeRoy got handled, but he cut her some slack because she was in menopause.”

    Oh, my.

    I’d like to think you are kidding, but you’re not, are you?

    Bad craziness.

  188. From here:

    Sleep disturbances- insomnia or excessive sleeping
    –Involuntary movements of the tongue or mouth (facial dyskinesias). Grimacing at the corners of the mouth with the facial muscles, or odd movements with the tongue.
    –Parkinsonian type symptoms- rigidity, tremor, jerking arm movements, or involuntary movements of the limbs

    Just seems like some of the things I am reading about his state when having visions remind me of the above.

  189. Those mannerisms seem like reactions to overmedication. The sleep disturbances could be part of psychosis – which can also be part of the spectrum between schizophrenia and bipolar depression.

  190. I think Warren is a paranoid sociapath myself, but im no doctor.

  191. is excellent. Years back I hosted a weekly chat there for family and loved ones of schizophrenics.

  192. Whatever it is, bet it runs in the Jeffs family!

  193. LeRoy’s first wife became possessed of the devil when LeRoy got handled, but he cut her some slack because she was in menopause.


    Sally in menopause huh, what date are you reading because she had a child in june 2002.

  194. seems many have seizures in flds, from adults to children to babies.

  195. cement – i want what you have.

  196. #

    cement – i want what you have.

    Proud Texan said this on February 9, 2010 at 2:17 PM

    Me too!

  197. so how did you get them cement?

  198. Sally was reassigned to Nielsen on 5-5-2005, but LeRoy was sent away prior to that. I’m not sure how long Warren had him dangling before the wives went.

  199. I’m not coming to any conclusion, and surely I’m not qualified to do so, I’m just noticing a lot of physical symptoms. So either those are being induced by his belief that he’s supposed to have them because that’s how he defines being the prophet, or he actually IS having them for some physical or neurological reason and interpreting them as being spiritual. Or he’s not having them at all and he and Naomie are making it up. I guess there’s the possibility that he’s really having revelations from God and that causes physcial seizures, but I’m not suggesting that that’s the case. (smile)

  200. Betty,, in MY opinon, I feel more the latter of what you said,, He and Naomi are good at making up revelations.. Remember he sent her away once…

  201. who’s jethro?

  202. It also reminds me of St Theresa of Avila who supposedly had ‘agonies’ and “ecstacies” of prayer and went into convulsions, etc. These all started after a very serious bout with malaria.

  203. jehtro barlow?

  204. cement can you tell me why people are harassing ruth cooke?

  205. “He’s the one who wasn’t stoned by the people, just sent away.”

    Stop. Just stop.

    I don’t know if I can take much more of this in one day.

  206. LOL, Twist, take a break from reading, take a couple advil and a shot of good whiskey, you’ll be back in fighting form!

  207. deputydog, I’ll see ya, and raise you a + narcissistic.

  208. I took a nap. 🙂

    1. Did anyone else see the blog entry that Brooke made that was up but now is gone? She said she sent an e-mail to Blues. Had information concerning the new site and the information found on there.
    2.Granny isn’t schizophrenia thought to be passed on down skipping a generation? or is that one of those myths?
    3. Wasn’t there a study done and Utah was listed as a state that had a high number of people with problems concerning depression/bi-polar and schizophrenia?

    The reason I am wondering about Warrens mental health and the possible symptoms is that it looks like he is having some type of seizure. I also think that Warren might have known about this and used it to his advantage. Hard to say. What may look like being in a trance talking to God or dead prophets could have actually Warren controlling his medication and bouncing off the walls and always having a witness would put him once again at a different level than those around him.
    I know when he first went to jail he was said to be mildly depressed. And he appeared to be Warren. And then came the confession and the wall bouncing. Then the medicines came into play once again. He was drooling in court and appeared to have been overly medicated.
    I started asking questions about his medicine intake and made the comment that if his lawyers weren’t seeing the difference he should have better council and a different team of doctors.

    Does any of this change the fact that Warren should be in prison? Not one little bit. How about those watching and participating? In my opinion they should be charged also. They supposedly had their wits about them.

    I hope Cement can answer some questions about Ruth.

    I am off to do some more reading. Be back tonight.

    Naps are a good thing. 🙂

  209. Sadie, I keep thinking that I’ve reached a point where nothing can leave me with my mouth agape thinking WTF.

    Not so.

  210. My understanding is Warren was given Two exmainations in prison, one by a doctor, or physc named barlow and the other a prosecution doctor. Warren was given drugs in prison for awhile,, probably zoloft, but declined to take them any longer.

  211. As far as brooke, emailing Texasbluesman, I didn’t see the post. However, she is probably irritated she didn’t get the information first, being the ONLY polygamy beat reporter in the nation,,, (being sarcastic) 🙂

  212. Dec.11, page 50, Warren admits to underage marriages and seems to understand it brings trouble. Also interesting his avoiding and telling his family how to avoid being served with subpoenas in the Rodney Holm case.
    He sure seems to be scared of Winston and in his ramblings, I suddenly thought I heard shades of Koresh and Jim Jones. They used very similar language to keep their sheeples in line.

  213. i got tweets about her posts, 2 of them in fact, but the link from the tweet gives “404 error”.

  214. DD,

    A very close girl friend of mine has a son who is schizophrenic. He was arrested for arson and convicted. Even though he had a diagnosis from an outside doctor and had even been in a home for adolescents for awhile, the prison would not medicate him nor take seriously the claims that he needed help. It took them almost a year of probations and re-incarcerations to get the system to do anything about his problem, even to let him take medications that were proscribed for this problem. Now, about two years later, he’s in a half way home and getting pretty good help. So, the fact that the prison did not diagnose him for anything other than depression does not make me think that he has no other problems, only that we don’t KNOW if he has any other problems.

  215. Has Brooke posted that interview with Shurtleff that she said would be coming “shortly?”

    That was yesterday afternoon.

  216. might have been one of the posts she deleted. apparently there were 2 of them.

  217. November 10, 2002 — We welcome Brother Joseph Steed’s family.
    We love Brother Joseph Steed, a true and faithful
    Priesthood man to the Prophets in his time….Brother Joseph
    Steed and his family are exemplary. My father
    would often speak of him with complete trust and
    confidence, and I rejoice in Brother Joseph and say
    God bless him and his beautiful family. God bless
    him forever and may his family take the same spirit
    and example their father has set.

    Another true and faithful Priesthood man.

    Until he wasn’t anymore.

    Joseph Steed lost his Priesthood and his wives in 2006.

  218. Dec.11, page 50, Warren admits to underage marriages and seems to understand it brings trouble.
    Here’s a direct quote. I’m thinking of putting together a sort of Warren Jeffs’ Greatest Hits document.

    “By the way, we have done an underage marriage since father’s passing: Ben Barlow and Matthew Johnson’s daughter was seventeen. That is what the government is trying to get us to write a letter or sign agreement that we won’t do any more underage marraiges. Yet the government allows it – girls sixteen and up – and then what about all the unwed mothers. They are just using it as a way to attack us.”

    Wednesday, December 11, 2002
    Record of President Warren Jeffs

  219. With regard to some of the questions previously raised by Betty and others,
    1) seizure disorder is not a manifestation of schizophrenia
    2) that being said, some of the medications used to treat schizophrenia lower the seizure threshold
    3) the only way to tell if someone is having seizure activity is to order an electroencephalogram (EEG)
    4) I would suggest that the best way to ascertain whether someone is a sociopath or suffering from a thought disorder or delusional disorder is to have several formal forensic psychiatry examinations conducted on the party in question.

  220. ellie, I think Jeff’s Greatest Hits would be a big hit. Go for it!

  221. Well, yeah, Susan, I agree with #4. But that won’t keep me from speculating. And the site I quoted was talking about nervous gestures, possibly involuntary, not really seizures.

  222. What kind of medication do you think he had been on? And where do you get the idea that he is on medication, is there any reference to that?

  223. I read the doctor’s reports online that were done before or during the trial,,,, and it said Warren agreed to take medication,, but then during the trial, he was listless and the judge even ask if he was okay,, so he quit taking it.

  224. the most common for depression is Zoloft in most states


  226. DD1 and Betty,
    which documents are you referring to and what page number ?

  227. ellie

    Its the old refrain “If someone else gets permission for X we should get it for Y”

    So no, Warren you still broke the law, quit trying to fool yourself, you cant marry teens when you are 50 years old and already have 80 wives, you go to prison where you belong.

    Deal with it Warren. And quit trying to justify your child moesting.

    Nobody thinks its cute. Except Hugh.

  228. That’s interesting.

    When I refresh the Plural Life blog, the post doesn’t show up, but I got the entire post to show up from cutting and pasting the Twitter link.

  229. The first tweet was the same post, but without the last two or three paragraphs.


  230. I like the idea of Warren’s greatest hits – a whole new thread just to shake our heads over

  231. An interesting (to me) thought about Brooke Adams. When she was the “only polygamy beat” reporter she could pretty much pick and chose her stories…. the problem now is everything is breaking loose and she can’t control the flow of information as the entry point to the FLDS. The story line is no longer what the FLDS happy family.

    Truth is who cares what Willie “The Spokesman” has to say – it isn’t relevant to anything (unless he gets certified in some fashion by the courts as legally able to make decisions).

  232. On the greatest quote, as soon as someone can find the reference, “You make certain your young (underaged) wives are with child”

    “We didn’t stone Jethro, we just sent him away”

    “We don’t do blood atonement. That’s a lie by Winston. All I asked was to cast Vanessa out and pray the Lord to take her in death. I told her to her face she still has that to face.”

    “We have a dangerous foe in Winston. He knows how we operate.”

    Let’s ban strange dreams from it, or else put them on a different list.

  233. twist, when i do that i just get 404 – error

  234. From December 27, 2002:

    “Visited Garden House School passing out Keep Sweet suckers.”

  235. Except the first time I read it my brain added a comma:

    Keep Sweet, suckers!

  236. it works better with the comma. funny how your brain will add what needs to be added.

  237. Weird, PT.

    It’s still coming up for me when I open the link in my comment above.

    Try copying the link and pasting it into your browser. That’s how I got there in the first place from Twitter.

  238. “I’m still wondering what the Lord meant by that”.

  239. Put that in context of “When the Lord sends someone a dream, he makes the meaning perfectly clear” which is from “The Coming Crisis and How to Meet It” which he records having the people study.

  240. No need to wonder, Warren.

    Just make it up as you go along.

    Why change a thing of what you’ve been doing.

  241. Polygamist leader Warren Steed Jeffs, 51, has been suffering from depression and anxiety and at least one of the two mental health experts that examined him said he suffers substantial mental illness.

    … Jeffs appeared to be detached, confused and unclear about “everything transpiring in court” during a March 27 hearing.

    …Conclusion that Jeffs suffers a substantial mental illness.

    … Jeffs did not appear to be paranoid during the evaluation but was careful what information he revealed and came across as mildly depressed. There was also ample evidence in the chart that Jeffs has been struggling with symptoms of depression coupled with anxiety.

    …By his March 27 court appearance, Jeffs was, according to the report, catatonic, in a depressed state, complaining of anxiety and not functioning well.

    On Jan. 28 Jeffs was taken to Dixie Regional Medical Center for treatment after he was found “distressed” by jail medical staff.

    Although the exact reason for the trip has not been made public, Jeffs denied past suicidal or homicidal ideation in his evaluation with psychologist Tim Kockler.

    But in Kockler’s report, it states that “records indicated self-injurious behavior.”

    … Jeffs meets DSM-IV criteria for Depressive Disorder NOS (Not otherwise specified)


  243. Funny thing about Twitter.

    It appears that once you’ve Tweeted you may not be able to pull it back in.

    Or maybe someone should check their Twitter settings to prevent Tweeting something that may not have had the “Publish” button pushed.

  244. thanks DD1,
    just skimmed it, no evidence of schizophrenia as per the documentation there, simply depression. some of the confusion, sedation, and drooling observed could represent anti depressant medication side effects, if he in fact was on medication for depression at that time.

  245. This isn’t on this site yet, but I found the reference:

    Saturday, Oct. 15, 2005

    “I talked to Allen Keate and said that he was a great strength and blessing on this mission, but he needs to get his young ladies close to him. I even said to make sure they are with child.”

  246. “I even said to make sure they are with child.”

    Mission accomplished.

    Allen Keate got a 33-year sentence for that one, Warren.

    Nice going.

  247. TT,

    Can you expound on what Brooke said on the post, before she deleted it? Or, if it still shows up and you can copy it, can you forward it to me?



  248. i’ll send it to him twist.

  249. TBM,
    Saw the Priesthood Records site, just wanted to voice my appreciation

  250. yep, good going on that one warren. glad you made sure allen got to join you in the cellosteel kingdom.

  251. Thanks, PT.

  252. no problem TT

  253. Got it, thanks.

  254. nice huh

  255. Well everytime I pull it up it says 404 ERROR

  256. Okay Brooke has filed a story about the dictations

  257. But still no interview with Shurtleff posted.

    Dang, that’s what I’m wanting to read.

  258. i just saw it.

  259. not shurtleff, the dictations post

  260. hey ron – where’d you get your OCR converter thingy? i’ve got some pdf that’s aren’t searchable and i’d really like them to be.

  261. I recently posted this to the FLDS Priesthood Record site:


    It has come to our attention from attorneys who filed the pleadings containing these records that there are some materials in the documents that were not intended to be included. We are informed that the documents that were filed will be withdrawn from the court files or sealed or in some manner withdrawn from public disclosure — to be refiled when the materials have been redacted. On the request of the attorneys, we are removing the documents that have been posted here and will make materials available when they have been corrected and filed publicly.

    We ask that any readers who may have downloaded or copied the documents, please refrain from further disclosure or posting of these documents.

    Thank you

    Coram Non Judice

  262. Huh? What?

  263. Uh oh. Gotta stuff the cat back into the bag.

  264. Well that sucks !!!! I havent finished reading them YET!

  265. Poor cat.

  266. I’m wondering what you all think about dictations being made public that contain very private information about people other than Warren? For example, does it bother anyone that a number of sexual situations are detailed in these now-public documents, with the names of very real people attached? I’m talking about people who Warren is meeting with and/or counseling. Some of them are minors.

    I’m just curious to see what you all think. I’m not taking a position.

  267. and I didn’t even have a chance to finish reading the documents….
    and now I am getting stuffed back in the bag.

  268. Trent, your joking right?? Warren Jeffs is NO prophet! He took peoples lives and families away from them! He remarried women who didn’t WANT to be remarried. I think its very important to know how cults work, how they con people who are searching for spirituality into submission of their very personhood and soul. Warren shouldnt have EVER been marrying off UNDERAGE girls to OLD MEN trent!

  269. But you can see in the dark, right?

  270. Trent, Why don’t YOU and BROOKE do the REAL story of these men in leadership positions??? Instead of candy coating crimes and criminals!

  271. Trent , doesn’t it bother YOU that PARENTS were OKAY with the sexual relations and marriages of their little girls to grown men?

  272. Does it bother you or Brooke that ruth cooke got beaten up and taken outside of town and told NEVER come back just last week? Why don’t you as a photographer and brooke as reporter know what is going on in the twin cities Trent?

  273. And my last comment to you Trent is from Fred!

  274. Dawg, you rock! I’m laughing so hard, the cat in my lap thinks it’s an earthquake!

  275. Sorry texasrattle, I just don’t understand trent’s thinking asking such stupid questions! Had Utah been more concerned the last 15yrs about minors or their names they would have STOPPED warren jeffs and his gang, LONG ago!

  276. I agree with you completely, Dawg.

  277. Hey, no need to attack me. I’m just asking a question.

    Here’s what I’m curious about, and it’s more a question about the best way to handle the release of sensitive information than it is a question about Warren Jeffs or cults. Let me narrow it down to a single situation: There’s a paragraph or two about a 16-year-old boy who apparently tried to have sex with one of his father’s wives, who was a nearly-willing participant. They are all identified by name.

    Just looking for opinions about that, no matter what they may be.

  278. And some piddly ass photographer from a second rate newspaper doesn’t bother me!

  279. Trent , there were lots of dictations released in Texas from 2006-2009, did you bother to read those??? They also had names of minors in them. And boys who were messing with little girls.. What the hell you want? To keep incest and sexual assualts hidden?

  280. trent, anytime anybody writes something down, there’s the risk that it will be published. Don’t want folks to know about sixteen year old boys having sex, or young “wives” being gotten with child? Don’t write about it. Better yet, DON’T DO IT.

  281. Trent,

    From the get-go, issues about identification of the minors who are the victims in the sexual assault charges (or were potential victims) has been problematic for me.

    I fought it for some time on the Tribune comment board, but gave up when their names and photographs were splashed around elsewhere.

  282. Its important to bring injustice into the light trent! Just as a photographer has to have just the right lighting for a superior photograh, having information when crimes are committed is important!
    The fact, this has been going on for YEARS is a disgrace!!

  283. Yes that’s been a large problem. Whenever WE tried to keep things like that on the civil and ethical plane, FLDS (females, especially) took over and made certain those whose information we’d tried to protect was smeared all over, for what they may have thought was to their benefit.

    So no, I think the truth has greater likelihood of seeing them all freed, those who want to or need to be.

  284. Wow, I feel like I’m in a fist fight with someone I’ve never met but somehow managed to offend.

    Common ethical practice is to keep the names, not the assaults but the NAMES of the VICTIMS of sexual assaults private. I guess that’s what I was getting at. It’s a victims’ rights thing, typically done to protect minors and victims.

    -Piddly Ass

  285. Precisely, Trent.

    What is the common ethical practice about their photographs?


  287. That was a REAL Scoop for you wasn’t it? You were so proud of yourself to the be the FIRST one to publish those pictures

  288. I was thinking about the photographs taken outside of the Schleicher County courthouse during the first grand jury sessions.

    And those by Stephanie Sinclair first published in the New York Times Magazine.

  289. i agree that the FLDS outed themselves with the help of Mudpuppy and Stephanie Sinclair. i also agree that if warren hadn’t so neurotic as to record everything then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. and yes, there are recordings floating around.

  290. What is it with Utah? What is it with SLT? What is it Trent, are you pissed cause someone got information before YOU DID?

  291. Well if a certain “reporter” that claims to be the only reporter in the nation assigned to the polygamy beat would have reported the truth regarding the crimes being committed instead of climbing into bed with the criminals and candy coating the crimes she might still have sources besides only wee willie.

  292. and don’t forget more just published in national geographic. all very proudly list name and age, even the names of the really underage children of the victims.

    wee willie keeps telling us there are no victims here, well you can’t have it both ways. you can’t claim victim status just when it suits you.

  293. Yes, deputydog1, I put that photo up first, but you’ll see that we obscured the victim’s face in the photo. As for the ethics of photographing victims, it was always a serious topic of discussion when I was covering the story and not taken lightly. It got more complicated when victims came forward and wanted to be identified, but I didn’t work those custody stories.

  294. What those dictations do Trent is PROVE what many many people have said along!! Including Elissa Wall, Carolyn Jessop and Brent Jeffs, about a 100 other former Flds. Bet that draws your britches in a wad , don’t it!!

  295. Sorry Trent,, dont come in here spouting ethics , when you have NONE!

  296. i agree trent, but when they scream 24/7 that there are no victims, then what? like i said earlier, you can’t have it both ways.

    and i love your photos btw and greatly respect your talent.

  297. TexasTwist- This is maybe too fine a point to make here, but here goes…
    If my memory serves me, none of the women photographed at the courthouse for the Grand Jury were identified in my coverage as victims. They were photographed as potential witnesses and FLDS members, but I never put them out there as victims. Information is out there that may reveal them to be victims, but that wasn’t the point of my coverage that specific day (and we’re talking summer of 2008, so there was less information floating around).

    I’m not on here mad or angry or even opinionated. Just curious, as always.

  298. Stop it you guys. All of you. Just stop it.

    This is what happens when people keep secrets.

    Everyone has been playing games for so long that even the good guys are looking bad.

    Mind games being played by those accusing others of playing games.

    Shame on most of you.

    Who can we trust? 😦

  299. Trent there was plenty of fact based information out there way before the raid in texas, no one in Utah was interested… The attitude in Utah was what we don’t see, don’t hear, don’t reseearch, we don’t have to face. .And its still the attitude! Warren Jeffs is a convicted felon, and his writings are evidence that many crimes occured, including trafficking, stealing money from the Peoples trust, and ruining peoples lives without reason.!

  300. you might not have put names with the girls trent, but by identifying them as FLDS and saying they were waiting for the Grand Jury, it sure as heck didn’t do a lot to keep them under wraps, then mudpuppy and sinclair go plastering their names with photos all over the place, so it was easy to identify them in your photos, which were great by the way.

  301. When a culture claims spiritual and moral superiority over others and their leader justifies marrying one particular 13-year-old in order to “protect” her from the evil forces in the gentile world, it complicates the heck out of things, too.

    Redacted names would certainly be appropriate, but I think that revealing the not-all-that-uncommon existence of sexual conduct outside of their culturally “acceptable” bounds is germane to the debates.

  302. I actually have no problem with these dictations being posted, evil can not survive the light and this exposure of the evil of the FLDS cult is what is needed to break the evil hold on the many victims of the cult leaders.

  303. Walton, I can tell you right NOW, I don’t trust trent or Brooke adams, they screw up the truth, misprint half truths.

  304. Hey guys, Trent raised a legitimate question.

    I think that is the reason that the attorneys that made the filing requested that we pull the dictations. The documents as originally filed were not redacted, and it is my understanding (through an intermediary) that they want to protect innocent third parties from undue publicity into their private lives.

    I, and I am sure that FLDS Texas agrees, completely agree with that position. I think that it shows concern for those other parties, and a desire to do the right thing.

  305. Now, having said that, I don’t particularly trust Brooke.

    She panders to Wee Willie way too much.

  306. “They were photographed as potential witnesses and FLDS members, but I never put them out there as victims.”

    Please, Trent.

    Did you think anyone would think they were there to tell the grand jury about their sewing classes?

  307. Party pooper.

  308. txbluesman, it is evident that there are not many people left that do trust Brooke which is why all her contacts beyond wee will have dried up and shut her down.

  309. maybe their pot roast recipe twist!!!

  310. Thats not my problem with this txbluesman, My problem is that after all this time Trent nelson has the audacity to come in here and question why the dictations were printed at all. Its called Public access, and I didn’t see him jumping out his ass when medvecky published pictures and names of under age children from Trents own site. Nor did I see Brooke Adams condemn Medvecky for doing such.

  311. wee willie needs to have a long visit to the cellosteel kingdom.

  312. “…we’re talking summer of 2008, so there was less information floating around…”

    Not necessarily.

    The information was available before then for those who were inclined to dig into the facts.

    I know that for a fact.

  313. I love a good pot roast, PT.

  314. TexasTwist- I see your point.

  315. Yeah, and I was One of them,, you can find just about anything you need if you look hard enough!

  316. And I loved the speed skating photos. Green with envy, I am.

  317. I go out for a Spanish class and you guys get all chatty. It’s going to take awhile to catch up. But I really like this one thought:

    Keep Sweet Suckers!

  318. deputydog I am not a fool.

    I’ve been reading blogs and articles by many that haven’t been very truthful.

    I am disappointed in many. Brooke included.

  319. Trent, I think it’s fair to say that many aspects to this story as well as real-time online reader/viewer participation in the news creates a lot of challenges for everyone.

  320. Walton
    Ive never called you a fool, have great respect for you. Im just saying, for some odd reason the fact that convictions have taken place with flds before the texas thing, ought to tell trent, you can’t keep secrets, cause they come out sooner or later.

    My opinion is all information about anything doing with sexual assualts, forcing underage marriages, parents not standing up to keep their children from being married to young, SHOULD be brought out into the open. If not, how do you Stop from happening.

  321. “…that they want to protect innocent third parties from undue publicity into their private lives.”

    Understandably so.

  322. Sooo…, block out the names of underage victims, I don’t think any of us are here to see that exposed either, but let Warren’s dictations be open for all to see.
    I’ve read all the dictations so far posted and fear came into my heart. Seems I’ve heard a lot of the same religious stuff from Koresh and Jim Jones. An indoctrination to rule as a theocratic dictator moving his people as if he played a chess game.
    He also is smart enough to know how to play a legal game that no one else would get away with. Yes, he is getting tested, the smell test and that stinks to high Heaven.
    It is high time he gets exposed for what he is and nothing does that better than his own words.

  323. YES, I questions Trents reason for posting here! Its not happened that I know of until a website came out with new dications posted.

  324. No question. It is a big, complicated story and now it moves very fast thanks (yes, THANKS) to bloggers on all sides. Reader comments at the Tribune site? Don’t even get me started.

  325. A question for you, Trent.

    If a journalist is given access to a mother for whom public documents and simple math show not one, but three, daughters who were married underage and potential sexual assault victims, does that journalist have an ethical responsibility to question that person along those lines?

  326. Could someone please tell me the case in which these documents were filed? Also very curious about how the docs were obtained by law enforcement. Anyone know?

  327. Complicated? I think not. The only complication I see is attorneys trying to SHUT UP the truth.

  328. I’m with LadySadie – evil can’t stand the light. It’s time for the truth to come out; abuse is endemic in this belief system.

  329. it’s my understanding that it has to do with the stubbs use of the land for farming, but i might be wrong. it was in moccasin county.

  330. nearthecreek,, I have no idea where these dictations came from, Im assuming they were filed, and once they were, they became public information

  331. So where is a Tribune story about the events of 7-22-2004 when three 14-year-olds were married at YFZ?

    That has been in documents available since January 2009.

    There was a Tribune article when it was first known that two 15-year-olds and one 12-year-old were all married on the same day in July 2006 at YFZ.

    Why the appearance of “hands-off” as to what happened in 2004?

  332. If you had a group of people in a trailer park wearing wolf baying at the moon day glow tshirts, and they were convincing their under aged daughters to have sex with their middle aged friends, would you turn them in? Why does talking about God, wearing modest clothing and canning peaches make it OK?

  333. Trent, You raise a valid question. Some here are unaware of all that is contained in these dictations. Yes, minors involved in crimes should not be identified publicly, if they in fact are victims of a crime being investigated, one of the most frustrating aspects of dealing with a covert religious sect such as the FLDS Church, is so many of these crimes go unreported or investigated by lawful authorities. Do you know that there is any investigation underway concerning this young boy?

    I recall that a video of Barbara Jessop and her daughter was filmed and made public in an attempt to influence Public & Press opinion(s). Was that O.K., because it too involved a minor teen girl?

  334. Here is the thing too, if the FLDS would stop filing all the frivolous law suits then filings to counter the FLDS lies would not be necessary. The FLDS has brought this all on themselves. Damn if you don’t want your secrets known then why keep begging for someone to publish them?

  335. Anyway trent good to see you enjoy the blog where the info and truth breaks into print.

  336. thats the problem LadySadie,, the SLT is pissed cause they didn’t get them first

  337. or even the tribune story about ernest getting kicked out and his underage wife was given as a still underage wife to his brother who then succeeds in getting her pregnant (we won’t even go into the potential of poor little SpitU) or when Leroy, father to the above underage girl was kicked out and his still underage wife was reassigned to allen keate who is spending 33 years in prison because of it.

    come to think of it, there wasn’t even a post by brooke about allen’s trial.

  338. TexasTwist – Of course that kind of question needs to be asked in the scenario you describe.

  339. Thanks Proud Texan. So was that the case involving the plowing over of fields last year? If so, was there a civil case filed and the docs are part of a civil case, or is this about a criminal matter?

  340. As you have noticed, the Tribune has shifted resources away from covering polygamy. The UEP and the YFZ trials still make the paper, but there are less resources devoted to covering it. I think I only did three or four FLDS assignments in all of 2009.

  341. Backing up a bit…

    “It got more complicated when victims came forward and wanted to be identified…”

    Yes, discerning the can-sometimes-be-a-fine-line difference between reporting the news and serving as a PR outlet can be complicated.

    However, if one crosses the line frequently, it ceases to qualify as complicated.

  342. Or how about Edson and Zavenda Jessop who have publicly gone to news media only talking about their four children at YFZ, about how there is no abuse in that family. I believe Trent did a photo spread on them but the “polygamy” reporter and Trent both fail to mention the 7 other children Zavenda abandoned back in Short Creek or the 30 some other children and I think 5 other wives that Edson abandoned back in Short Creek. Since we have been asked to not post any of the recent dictations I won’t post the exact entry but weenie warren tells about one of Zavenda’s underage son’s and Edson coming to see him and the weenie sent that son away.

    Where is Brooke’s story on this?

  343. Just curious, but how much editorial control does the Tribune exert over the blogs associated with it?

    Since online publishing doesn’t consume resourses like newsprint and column-inch space, are writers free to publish stories on their blogs on their own time?

    And do the editors exert any review for content, fairness and accuracy?

  344. My blog is mostly done on my own time and I’m sure other Tribune bloggers write at least some on their own time. I edit my own but I’ll run a post by an editor if it’s a controversial topic.

    Speaking in general (because we have a lot of different blogs), it’s a looser environment than the printed product. We also have less and less staff to monitor/edit blogs the way print content is monitored.

  345. Less and less staff for everything is the new way of the world.

    So are y’all seeing any changes because of the Chapter 11 reorganization or just the standard tight Singleton budget restrictions?

  346. Many of us wondered about the fake-funeral crowd put on for that poor woman who had been pitched out on the streets years earlier just to put on a happyhappyjoyjoy NatGeo photo op.

  347. edson abandoned more children than zavanda, but she abandoned all of her children from her dead husband. they were left in the crik without a biological parent to tend and care for them. what exactly do you tell a child when you’re picked as good and righteous and they aren’t.

    then for zavanda to cry for her pour children who were ripped from her arms, that’s bs. who cried for the children she left behind, she obviously didn’t.

    that woman makes me want to puke, almost as much as the mothers who gave multiple underage girls as “celestial” wives.

  348. right toad and what was with the picture in the casket of her holding a picture of merril? the man sent her back to the crik where she wondered the streets until she was takin in by a grandson.

  349. For awhile Brooke had, a 2 comment cap on the blog…I rarely go thrre so I don’t know if she changed it…pretty much shutting down any debate or chance to update comments related to a story. Last I looked, her 2-3 ‘regular’ posters, were all RA-RA cheering for the FLDS.

  350. Dignity.

    Ah, yes.

    I expect we’ll see Warren Jeffs plead like Mike Emack did to preserve what remains of his.

    Bat-boy rulez!

  351. After these I’m going to sleep…

    TT- I haven’t seen any changes since the Chapter 11. A little bit scary for all of us, though.

    milee- I do my best to stay neutral with the stories I cover. If I’m photographing an NBA game I’m not cheering for the Jazz or the Lakers, I’m just trying my best to tell the story. It’s the same with the FLDS. I’m not there to cheer on Wisan or Willie. I’m there to accurately depict the events to the best of my ability. I have said many times that I have met good people on both sides of the issue, and that is still true.

    And I care about children.

  352. Can we toss the new weevils among us?

  353. deputydog I know you didn’t call me a fool. Maybe sometimes I say that to convince my self.

    I don’t have a problem with the dictations being out for the public eye. If you look, I think I might be one of the first few thanking those that worked at getting it all together.

    Should the minors names be blocked out? Yes. Do I think that Bluesman or anyone from here meant to harm anyone? Not even.

    I don’t understand why Brooke made the original post and then pulled it. I don’t understand why she couldn’t have called Blues or at the very least waited to put up her original post.

    Blog fighting is for kids. Name calling is for kids. Who gives a rats behind as to how many members are at ANY blog.

    I know for a fact that when I post something over at the InSessions I need a link to back up what I am saying. With that comes a source with a name that is accountable to any court for obvious reasons. Some owners of blogs have their real names on them. Others do not for many reasons. I’ve come to respect all that.

    I know that the Tribune has been downsizing. I know that Brooke has been working on other stories. I know people are getting burnt out. I am one of them.

    But part of that burn out isn’t so much the story as it is all this bickering. All this stuff being done and said behind closed doors. Using last years stories with todays date. ( I won’t name any names.) Are the documents real or fake? Are the photos real or fake.

    Did Raymond get hauled off to jail or not? Is Warren in jail or not? Is that Warren really walking into a courtroom or not.

    I am asking that all blog owners/operators to work together. I am asking all journalists to buck up and be the writers that you are.

    I want to post at places that I trust. I want to trust what I read. I want to help.

    If anyone needs a refresher please view Banking on Heaven and or the documentary about the Lost Boys.

    Listen to their voices once again and I think we all will be on the same page.

    Remember Ruth, Penny, Pam, Geidon, Johnnie, Dan Fisher talking about his father, Ben Bistline and Uncle Duff. Remember the children whose voices went unheard for way too long.

    If those guys didn’t give up … I sure am not going to.


    Both links can be found at

  355. There’s a paragraph or two about a 16-year-old boy who apparently tried to have sex with one of his father’s wives, who was a nearly-willing participant.

    That’s one of the plot lines from “Big Love.”

    Like they say . . . you can’t make this stuff up.

  356. To answer your question, Trent, I have to say I’m of two minds on that particular issue. I believe in respecting the privacy of victims. I wouldn’t like my life exposed like the lives of so many in the FLDS have been. I agree with redacting names, although some non-identifying unique label would be nice simply to help keep the victims separate. (Say UG #1 or “Underage Girl #1 and PW #35 or “Plural Wife #35.) The problem is that the FLDS have been hiding and deceiving for so long that the truth is so hard to unravel without actual names. On the other hand, as a private citizen, I don’t actually have any “right” to know every detail. I suppose as long as SOMEONE in law enforcement is actually following through with the evidence that’s what really counts.

    I know, clear as mud.

    On a side note; I’d like to say that I find the attacks on Brooke and Trent to be in rather poor taste. I think they are both doing their jobs the best they know how. I don’t always like every judgement call Brooke makes, but I’m not a journalist. I really felt like the pig pile on Trent was pretty harsh, and his question was quite valid.

    I’m not trying to tell anyone what to post or anything, I’m just stating my view of the comments in that one section.

  357. “The more the public is educated about the sex lives of the FLDS people and their outrageous promiscuity, the more they will see how morally bankrupt they are and thus not deserving of any dignity whatsoever.”

    “Trent, there are no good people in the FLDS.
    A “Good FLDS person” is an oxymoron.”

    “The FLDS are not worthy of dignity”

    “The FLDS are also intolerant judgemental bigots.”

    Duane, is that you again? Did Mommy let you back on the computer for some reason? Perhaps you should try another hobby, like being a N00B on WoW because you really are a pathetic excuse for a troll.

  358. I’m none too sure Brooke or Brent either one are or have been being honest, equivocating doesn’t get it. The issue Brent brought up is a tough one admittedly. Right now Brooke’s in a spittintizzyhissyfit over the new blog material. Pressure, maybe. We are good.

    They want to out TBM guess whose idea that is, and to out whoeverall we are here at FLDSTX, or that appears to be the notion.

  359. If that’s not Duane then it’s Mudpucky. It’s been a favorite of Duane’s to make a slew of nasty remarks followed by blaming the remarks upon others.

  360. As a private citizen you’ve no right to know? That sounds a good bit like cupcake, Rebeckah. We have open records for a reason. If you’re disinterested in facts, details, this may be the wrong forum for you.

    I just had a deja vu of a dutchie trying to tell me something similar, a paternalistic view, their napoleonic code legal system has these guys take care of it all, no juries, don’t bother your little head with the iupg stuff.

  361. Trent are you aware that Brooke Adams “outed” the name of a victim of sexual assault on her blog? The name of that young girl had NEVER been mentioned in print (her name had always been redacted) prior to your pal putting in on the Internet.

    You say you care about the children. Then, please educate your polygamy beat reporter pal that she needs care about the children too. A good reporter who cares about child victims of sexual assault doesn’t plaster the child’s name on her blog on her newspaper’s web site on the Internet for all the world to see.

    Her actions were inexcusable for a reporter with any ethics. From what you posted here, I think you are a hypocrite and she is just a poor sport who got scooped twice in 3 days by a blog (once with the Wendell Nielsen as FLDS president filing and now with powerful new dictations showing even more crimes being committed by the FLDS and disclosed by the “prophet” himself).

    Is she so desperate now for information on the FLDS because she alienated her circle of contacts that she has to scour this blog to come up with a story? And then become a little tattle-tale about it?

    What a piece of work she is!

  362. Trent, if you are still reading, this ia about your question:

    “… For example, does it bother anyone that a number of sexual situations are detailed in these now-public documents, with the names of very real people attached… Some of them are minors.”

    I didn’t get a chance to read much of these recent dictations before they were removed, but I think I get the drift of your concern. The concern is however, IMO, germane to a world that has already gone by.

    More specifically, our problem is caused by 2 completely different ethical groundings in conflct. The United States is hamstrung in a lot of ways by people who value death more than life, so how do you procede? And here, we have a similar problem. How do you proceed, when 1 player, a hypothetical minor, is given the priviledges of adulthood in 1 society, the FLDS, and the privileges of childhood in secular constitutional society? In short, someone who is eligible to marry at 14 is not a minor.

    Yes, I think the side of secular law would have looked better if the names of minors had been blacked out. But, I prefer here to quote the line made by the Holly Hunter character to the Tom Cruise character in “The Firm”, “is that our chief concern?”

    I wish we all still lived in a world where this issue merited attention, but we don’t. As a reader, my attention is on the world view revealed by these dictations of the Priesthood, and their supporters, and that is pretty much it.

    So I guess my answer to your question is “no, it doesn’t bother me, at least not very much.”

  363. My view for what it is worth. If Nixon kept a diary of all his thoughts about everything that ever happened including comments by some other world leader lusting after some young thing (male and female) and the name of the young thing was in there – I bet that there would be no controversy.

    The way I see this is that this is a whole lot more about Jeffs and how he manipulated people than about the people themselves. What I read which was to Dec. 2002 was completely about his attempts to control everything – very little about people seeking the prophets advice.

    If they should be redacted fine but the victims age and a unique identify should be there so that one can trace the crimes to the parents (eventually) as that is all part of the stench that needs the bleach of sunlight.

    This is about adults abusing children – keep the focus on the parents trading their children for Jeffs favors at an earlier and earlier age.

    Keep the focus on Jeffs taking the dreams (literally) of individuals and manipulating them to his own advantage …. to see that you need to see the dreams ….

    And Trent…. my perspective is that Brooke lost her journalistic status a long time ago when she did not follow up on the clues that were there….

    To say “there are good people” doesn’t cut it …. of course there are good people – there are even good people who commit a specific crime and still are “good” people in every other walk of their lifes

    Nobody on these boards suggests that all FLDS are not good people… unless it is Duane who only says that as a sock puppet.

    Yes things are moving fast – they are moving fast because other people are asking the questions that journalists should have been asking a long long long time ago

  364. PS
    I would have taken Brooke as a polygamy reporter a whole lot more seriously if she had been reporting on the Mitchell trial and on the issues of Muslim American women in polygamy.

    By keeping the focus entirely on Mormon polygamy she should either have changed her blog to Mormon polygamy for Mormons or lost the title the nations only polygamy beat reporter

  365. Speculating on Warren’s condition – one physical condition he might have would be temporal lobe epilepsy. That would explain the seizures and the vivid spiritual visions.

    There’s actually some debate over whether temporal lobe epilepsy has a personality disorder associated with it. Here’s a link if you’re curious.

  366. Dang – catching up with my reading …

    It appears Deputydog has found the inner pit bull.

  367. Regarding names in the dictations – I raise the issue of clergy/penitent confidentiality. Granted no one here takes very seriously the prophet-ness of Warren Jeffs but the folks going to talk to him do.

    Seems fairly simple – just redact the names – the problem is the volume – who really wants to go through all those pages to redact them?

  368. HHG,
    I agree with you.
    The subject of Muslim polygyny in America is neglected.
    There are 60,000 Mormon polygamists in the US, and an estimated 100,000 Muslim polygamists in the US.
    Why is it that the latter group receives no attention ?
    Since abnormal movements have been observed or reported in Warren Jeffs, has an EEG been done ?
    neurology consultation ?
    does he have a history of head injury, which is often associated with temporal lobe epilepsy ?
    Does anyone know ?

  369. I think the documents should have been redacted, and each person’s name replaced by a unique identifier.
    There should have been a table which linked the unique identifier with salient demographic information, such as age, gender, and city in which the subject lived.
    I look forward to reading the documents after redaction

  370. Cat

    I highly doubt any of the procedures you listed would ever be done on Jeffs. He clearly doesn’t think he has a problem. In prison he’s only going to get treatment when he presents with a problem or when his condition affects the orderly administration of the prison.

    I was just engaged in rampant speculation. As a side note, some modern scientists think the Apostle Paul’s road to Damascus experience was a sign of him having temporal lobe epilepsy.

  371. supposedly, according to wee willie, there are no victims, so if the flds say they aren’t victims then why the dog and pony show to redact names. they keep putting their names and pictures out there for the public to see with the help of stephanie sinclair and mudpuppy. i’m not getting the double standard.

  372. I would not suggest that anyone sink to the level of Bile

  373. I’m with Cat. I understand the indignation and outrage but if you’re going to stand for ethical values then you need to always question your ethics. Otherwise you risk being a hypocrite.

  374. Anonymous 4:09 said:

    “Trent are you aware that Brooke Adams “outed” the name of a victim of sexual assault on her blog? The name of that young girl had NEVER been mentioned in print (her name had always been redacted) prior to your pal putting in on the Internet.”

    I don’t know that we’re thinking of the same person, but there is an alleged victim in one of the Arizona cases where I learned the name by reading one of Brooke’s blog posts made in June 2008.

    Does the common ethical practice of not printing a potential victim’s name not apply in that case?

    It certainly does.

  375. Twist,
    That certainly doesn’t say much about Brooke’s ethics then.

  376. Let’s get these documents redacted, and then place them back on the internet.
    The public has a right to know exactly what happened

  377. Can we define the crime of “outing?” Does it involve intent or not?

    If you accidentally do something is that “outing?”

  378. “That’s one of the plot lines from “Big Love.””

    That’s one of the oldest plots around. As long as powerful middle aged men are going to claim ripe young 16 year olds as their property, 16 year old boys and girls are going to long for each other. Star crossed as it were. The shame to me is not on the young people but on the old man.

  379. “Yes things are moving fast – they are moving fast because other people are asking the questions that journalists should have been asking a long long long time ago”

    Amen, sister.

  380. I’m not concerned about myself sinking to certain levels.

    I enjoyed my exchanges with Trent and think that exercising caution about printing names is warranted. Discussing the issue is a good thing.

    At the same time, some of the information in the dictations that might first appear to be irrelevant to any potential criminal acts can actually turn out to be relevant.

    As an example, the information about Warren saying a particular woman was “possessed by demons” when he exed her husband adds some texture to her state of mind as to what was happening to her family.

    The mental state of that particular woman is certainly integral to the story of what was taking place at YFZ.

  381. No, it doesn’t, catwhisperer.

    Actually, it speaks volumes when you look at all of her blog posts from that period of time.

    I’ll add that there has been no going back to redact the name.

  382. Well it’s one thing to expose abuses, it’s a whole other to turn voyeuristic and to make other people’s personal tragedies into real life episodes of “Big Love.”

    Sometimes I wonder if some of you have moved from the former to the latter.

  383. Twist,
    You are correct, she has engaged in unethical behavior, without question. She should go back to her previous postings, and redact the appropriate information.
    If she refuses to do so, her supervisors should deal with her.

  384. I prefer not to spend my time running down Brooke or Trent. Or anyone else for that matter. But to show the human good side of the FLDS and ignore the evil that is staring you in the face; that’s not good journalism. It’s not news that these people have good among them. It’s news that the federal, state and local governments are allowing a theocracy to perpetrate wholesale abuse on a community for the benefit of an elect few. Turning your back to that is not just unethical, it’s immoral. The enemy of the FLDS is not law enforcement or the gentile world; it’s their own leadership.

    Pass me another Keep Sweet Sucker, will you?

  385. Betty,
    I think we are all in agreement with your statement.
    That is why the documents must be redacted as soon as possible and re-posted on the internet.
    What compounds are contained in your Keep Sweet sucker?
    Zoloft ?

  386. I am fascinated by the mechanisms of cult leadership. What conditions create a Warren Jeffs? Why do people allow that, what do they get out of it? I think it’s important to understand that to try to prevent it, because I think it’s relatively easy for groups to fall into that. I don’t see that as voyeuristic, Ron. I can’t speak for everyone else, cause I don’t know what’s in their hearts and minds.

  387. Good points, Betty.

    Reading the dictations in chronological order and in a whole (as much as possible) is important.

    This is a difficult story to make any sense out of without a lot of background information.

  388. RIH
    I agree that we should question ourselves – when we stop questioning our own ethics (are we voyeuristic); are we failing to redact material just because we don’t “feel like it” then we are no better than others.

    I don’t “bashing” is good either but I think a certain outrage is permissible –

  389. That would be appropriate, CW, but I didn’t get the recipe.

    No, I have tried various anti depressants and don’t tolerate the SRIs well. I was on cymbalta as part of a chronic pain test a few years back and it did more damage to my liver than my entire previous lifetime, which is saying a lot. I’m on prescription strength Vit D3. Other than that, I mostly manage my mental health with girl friend time, arts and crafts, work, exercise, yoga and meditation, herb tea, red wine and good sex.

  390. Betty

    I think the dynamics of cults is a very valid subject and is not voyeuristic.

    However, knowing details about people’s families and personal lives can easily turn voyeuristic. Don’t get me wrong, to an extent details can be important. It gets to be a question of line drawing that you’re right more goes into the hearts and minds of others.

    I more throwing out rhetorical questions for folks to ponder. I admit it’s a drama. The big rhetorical question is whether folks are getting wrapped up in the drama and losing sight of the big picture.

  391. Trent,

    Its somewhat odd that a member of a news reporting team would question ethics – while keeping all other dictations, from the public eye, and still call themselves a news team.


    TRENT: “I’m just trying my best to tell the story. It’s the same with the FLDS. I’m not there to cheer on Wisan or Willie. I’m there to accurately depict the events to the best of my ability.”


    So, I find that quote to be less than honest IMHO. Brooke and the Editors wont post dictations, even the ridiculous, funny, or downright damning ones. The Trib through Brooke is taking a Pro-polygamy pro-abuse stance. You all lost neutral ground when you throw your spin into the cycle, and Brooke props them up. Of course, there is some bad news she is compelled to report, and that angers the Pedo plyg protecter patrol (PPPP).

    Overall, her failure to post pertinent dictations such as the “Rejected of God” or “Dusting my Booties” dictations as well as the “news ommission” on Allan Keates conviction AND sentencing points to her and your companies failure to properly inform the public, and that is a sad state of affairs.

    While its unfortunate that victims names were included in his dictations that were posted, its even more unfortunate the general public doesn’t understand the unspun truth of the FLDS crimes and craziness.

    Many who follow can read many internet sites (past the Trib and trib blogs obviously) and get a grasp of whats going on, but what of the world that still relies on hard copy? Ya know, that part of the world that keeps companies like the Trib afloat, or rather partially afloat?

  392. Can we toss the new weevils among us?
    GrannyToad said this on February 9, 2010 at 10:36 PM

    Granny, you must always remember to choose the lesser of two weevils.

  393. Granny, you must always remember to choose the lesser of two weevils.

    OMG – too funny – and you didn’t even sign it to get credit…

  394. Good point, Ron. We need to continually question our own motives, it’s true.

  395. Stamp – you do need to remember that media companies are rather large targets and need be more concerned about things like “invasion of privacy.”

    It’s easy to cast stones, but at least they did have a reporter covering the issue.

  396. Even now, Stamp.

    Warren’s acknowledgement that he was complicit in Allen Keate’s sexual assault.

    “I even said to make sure they are with child.”

    Doesn’t bode well for his Texas charges, either.

    And this statement by Warren in 2002 warrants some follow-up:

    “…the Attorney-Generals say they won’t do any more if these will plead guilty.”

    Since Brooke is sitting on a still unpublished in-depth interview with Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, perhaps she could question him about the accuracy of Warren’s information.

  397. Well, I first heard the weevils joke in a Hornblower book, but he probably borrowed it from Shakespeare who borrowed it from Chaucer who stole it from some Italian, who stole it from Plato.

  398. Ron,

    NAH, that aint it. Brooke tested the waters with some dictations and the FLDS elite had Holy Cows out in the street, it was a funny deal.

    No, the reason that the trib doesnt post or link legally public dictation records is to not offend the secret society of the PPPP.

  399. Personally, I wasn’t even looking for minor children’s names in the dictations. I was looking for deceptive practices and just how warren manipulated people’s lives, made them get loans to build his
    “heaven on earth” and then when they couldn’t pay back loans, they had to take bankruptcy and lose their credit. There were loans taken out in younger children’s names, like plygkid, remember him?
    But warren promised to pay the payments, and never did. So he has no credit. This man crucified people in the group, and then wrote about how GODLY it was to do! It just showed how much Warren believed HE was God! I’ve never lost sight of my principal for following and researching this story in the last 3 yrs.
    It’s about freedom and rights of children, boys and girls, NOT to be coerced by religion or parents into situations that are against their will or the law.
    Whether these children know it or not, they DO have a choice, their rights are protected and there are people who will help them if need be.
    The parts about children in the dicatations, sickened my heart and my soul. For a little girl being married to an 84yrs old man (prophet) who admitted she had never even kissed a man, and then on her wedding day, was told to kiss her husband (Rulon Jeffs), all she could do was hug him, and admitted to him, she didn’t know how to kiss. PITIFUL, SADISTIC, down right PERVERTED as I see it!!! And that image I won’t forget… And the fact its been going on for years and years.

  400. Which isnt so secret anymore, that being Wendell, Willie, Lyle and Merril.

    I guess Lyle is going to be riding high once the rest of the PPPP are cruising the Cellosteel bars.

  401. I have read that there are no new jokes.

  402. No STamp the reason they have stopped persuing it is because its a mormon state! Not only does it make Flds look bad, but it also makes Utah and LDs look bad.
    Supposedly it was such a friggin secret for years, and LDS nor Utah LE wanted to get involved. Then when they did, they showed only ONE side.

  403. Twist, DD, Ron, Trent

    Indeed, read Twists and DD’s later posts – or the entire thread. Not once was there any mention (that I saw) of any underage names, but rather the manipulations of an equal opportunity abuser and law breaker.

    The dictations are deep and full of evidence, and I personally never saw anything that Trent alluded to, but I was more interested personally in the mindset and voodoo Warren pulled on his sheeple.

    THOSE incidents are steep and deep, and others have done well with finding good nuggets.

    I just find it highly hypocritical of Trent to trip in on an ethics cloud while his own organization turns a blind eye to the rest of it.

    I let him know in an email too, and Im not mad at him, but rather find it a good opportunity to question his own motives.

  404. Can you imagine having to assign their cult individuals past present and future a playlist of permanent individual alphanumerics so that you could use F23 or W117 in place of names when telling who did what to or with whom, who’s yer mom and dad, and all those things WSJ messed with? Sometimes one really does need to know all the connections to keep the sense of what these immoral crime family members are doing with one another, to their little children, whatever else.

    Where is Merrianne’s baby?

  405. That’s true, Granny Toad, but the trick is to chose the right joke for the right time and you are very good at that!

  406. The main reason I so like this blog is because there are no watered down versions of the truth. Everything on this site, is documented and has copies of the orignal paperwork.
    If they want to remove so called “minors” names from 2002 , which today would be adults, that’s okay. I didn’t read all the dictations, didnt have time, the only in depth reference I saw where I read was the one girl who was married to rulon at a very young age.

  407. OH, too funny. Bile is claiming that the release of these documents is a contamination of the evidence. Funny. AFTER it’s been entered into court? And, of course, anything in there that’s bad, Wisan edited himself.

  408. What do you get when you cross aJack rabbit with a donkey???

    Well, sometimes you get a rabbit with very long ears, but other times you a Jack Ass.

  409. We know which one Bile is right? LOL

  410. Or is it better to refer to these girl children as W85 until they reach age 18, then their name can be used. That is, unless their parents and the man or men they have sex with and/or made babies with could go to prison if they were taken to a real hospital for medical care to the mother and baby, exceptions like that?

    Heck that NatGeo article pointed out some criminal acts and who the crimianl actor is.

  411. I thought wendell,merril,etc won’t likely end up with jail time, so I doubt Lyle will rise any higher

  412. GT, with pictures of the girl and the baby.

  413. I think Wendell and Merril may well have jail time, thats for a jury to decide right?

    I dont think they got traffic tickets.

    Willie will be hanging with Lyle for the time being, until Utah finds stuff on them too.

    I’m sure its only a matter of Utah / AZ LE getting off their asses and paying attention.

  414. Ron
    Reporters like John Doughtery reported reams of stories on flds in the past. In depth stories. so has mike watkiss. The fact, Brooke missed this, and has to run around searching for where the dictations were coming from, shows how she is not a good reporter. Trent Nelson has never posted here, till last night!
    What was his motive? Did he even bother to read any of the dictations?

  415. Don’t think there is much to find on lyle

  416. You mean beyond felony bigamy? IMO he’s there, from what I’ve heard.

  417. Yes Betty, even National Geographic photos.

  418. Then there is the big story on fumarase deficiency in the crick, which the Trib never picked up – though a large competitor, the Phoenix News caught it.

    Ignorance must be bliss. Be Happy!

  419. Stamp, the fact is, they don’t care! Not about the criminal activity, not about fumarse disease, not about underage sexual assault. They don’t even care the states of Utah and Arizona are losing taxpayer money.
    Because if they face these facts,. then they have to DO something about it.

  420. Interestingly, Warren Jeffs while under a Federal arrest warrant issued on June 27, 2005, he was actually training and tutoring his ‘temple builder’ flock at the YFZ Ranch. He had established designated lands of refuge for a preselected FLDS members and was defying yet another search warrant, albeit this time it was a Federal manhunt that would lead to his being listed on the FBI’s ‘Ten Most Wanted’ list. His Priesthood record states,”And you are being tutored and trained, O ye my people, who are called to this labor, to go and be worthy and prepared to build the New Jerusalem, for my temple builders must be worthy of my presence to build that sacred house in the Center Stake of Zion [YFZ Ranch – Refuge 17]”. “And my name shall be established among my people and on my consecrated lands; and I will have a people prepared on the lands of refuge to come into my presence”. No wonder not witnesses have come forward to testify against any of the ‘Dirty Dozen’ indictees.

    Makes me wonder about Pringle, South Dakota, Mancos, Colorado and Pony Springs, Nevada besides the YFZ Ranch? If a dozen or more cases exist on just the YFZ Raunch how many more cases exist on these additional ‘lands of refuge’?

  421. Ron: Well it’s one thing to expose abuses, it’s a whole other to turn voyeuristic and to make other people’s personal tragedies into real life episodes of “Big Love.”

    Sometimes I wonder if some of you have moved from the former to the latter.

    I resisted watching Big Love for a long time, but finally caved in, mostly because BROOKE is a big fan and makes frequent references to it. Many of the plotlines have been taken from the real life FLDS story.

    It does not paint polygamy in a postive light at all.

  422. “As a private citizen you’ve no right to know? That sounds a good bit like cupcake, Rebeckah. We have open records for a reason. If you’re disinterested in facts, details, this may be the wrong forum for you.”

    Perhaps I expressed myself poorly. I agree with open records and I CERTAINLY agree about knowing the facts of any case. What I am saying is that; as a private citizen I don’t have a right to every personal detail pertaining to the victims. In other words, it is appropriate and ethical to redact names. My only concern with simply blacking out the names is that there are so many victims that it would be extremely difficult to make sense of many of the dictations if names are simply redacted. Hence my suggestion that a unique identifier could be substituted. (And I find it rather rude of you to compare me to Cupcake. You misunderstood me, but I certainly did not make a ridiculous assumption based on no evidence.)

    “I just had a deja vu of a dutchie trying to tell me something similar, a paternalistic view, their napoleonic code legal system has these guys take care of it all, no juries, don’t bother your little head with the iupg stuff.”

    I am not saying that at all. The mess in Utah and Arizona show that citizen involvement and oversight is clearly needed in a mess like this. Obviously law enforcement has dropped the ball on this for over a century and it needs to be dealt with. Once again, you misunderstood what I was saying. I don’t mind clarifying but it would be nice if I was asked rather than someone assuming I’ve said something I haven’t.

  423. And I wonder about the lack of action taken about Muslim polygyny here in America too. It really shouldn’t be ignored, although I can’t claim to have a clue as to the logistics in dealing with it.

  424. Stamp,
    Could you please post the link for the fumarase deficiency article ?
    I would appreciate it.

  425. Stamp- what have you heard?

  426. I don’t have HBO, in fact, I only have cable because we have internet access and you have to buy them together where I live. I might be losing it soon, since I have no decoder ring box.

    I just ordered the first season of Big Love through Netflix. It’s really just revenge on my hubby for subjecting me to all those movies in which men blow up things to try to save the world.

  427. Betty: I am fascinated by the mechanisms of cult leadership. What conditions create a Warren Jeffs? Why do people allow that, what do they get out of it? I think it’s important to understand that to try to prevent it, because I think it’s relatively easy for groups to fall into that. I don’t see that as voyeuristic, Ron. I can’t speak for everyone else, cause I don’t know what’s in their hearts and minds.


    I share your fascination Betty. I think some people have personalities that NEED to be lead and told what to do. I work part time in a retail store, and I have been surprised by how many people want me, the salesperson, to make their decision for them. I used to say, “Gosh, it’s a matter of personal preference,” but now I say “Oh the blue one for sure, get the blue one.” I don’t get it, because to me making the choices is the fun part of shopping, not the difficult, stressful part. I don’t know why some people have so much trouble making decisions for themselves, but they do.

    I think Warren, like many cult leaders, has a talent for sensing this need in people and exploiting it, and all the “exing” he did was to get rid of people who he suspected would not blindly follow him.

  428. I heard he was one of the good guys

  429. CW


    And if you google the disease, you will see the deseret news with an article as well, I went into the second page without seeing anything
    written by Brooke.

    I googled fumarase deficiency + salt lake tribune, didnt find anything other than other posters noting it on her blog.

    Another pile of dirt Brooke hides under the rug.

  430. I can’t believe how much has happened since I was here last – and I wasn’t even gone that long!

    I wholeheartedly agree about redacting the names in the dictations but I can’t imagine who would have the time & resources for such a task. It’s too bad – I was looking forward to compiling the Warren’s Greatest Hits. Just reading them, I only finished up to the end of 2002.

    I thought it was really fascinating to read the way Warren established and consolidated his authority during those first few months, when everyone who had bought into Rulon’s revelations about not dying needed something new to believe.

  431. And I wonder about the lack of action taken about Muslim polygyny here in America too. It really shouldn’t be ignored, although I can’t claim to have a clue as to the logistics in dealing with it.

    Clearly, there is some connection between closed or isolated cultures and these practices. You know one thing that probably works? Mandatory education of teenagers. The problem there is the home school crowd.

  432. In NY, Muslim women often find that their husband has “married” another woman in Pakistan or Africa without their knowledge or consent. These are frequently well educated women with good paying jobs.
    All of them that I knew personally divorced their husbands, but the men were never charged with bigamy, because the documentation of the polygamous marriage was in a foreign country.

  433. Big Love has lots of sub plots – the casual viewer may see day to day struggles of a guy living a dream life – under the onion skin in often not-too-subtle detail are the nightmares which abound.

    However, even though the show puts the astute viewer on notice that this isnt a good thing, it still hasnt touched on the real nastiness that is so pervasive. IMHO they havent scratched the surface.

    People dont want to watch incest, child molestation or the other sundry abuses that Warren spit out.

    Its intent is to be a TV show for general consumption, not to peel the onion on Jeffs, so you have to keep that in mind.

  434. and who did you hear that from, Anon?

  435. No STamp the reason they have stopped persuing it is because its a mormon state! Not only does it make Flds look bad, but it also makes Utah and LDs look bad.
    Supposedly it was such a friggin secret for years, and LDS nor Utah LE wanted to get involved. Then when they did, they showed only ONE side.

    The Mormon Church had a fit when Jon Krakauer published “Under the Banner of Heaven,” because Krakauer established a clear link between the Lafferty’s murderous actions and the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

    You can’t get around the fact that Warren Jeffs and the FLDS are following what they believe to be the true path of Mormonism as taught by Joseph Smith, in which polygamy plays a crucial role.

    It must be tough, to figure out how to refute the founder of your religion while still keeping him divine. I don’t see how they do it without their heads exploding.

  436. Ron: Well it’s one thing to expose abuses, it’s a whole other to turn voyeuristic and to make other people’s personal tragedies into real life episodes of “Big Love.”

    Sometimes I wonder if some of you have moved from the former to the latter.
    I think there is a lot of misinformation, both negative and positive, about the FLDS out there and the only way to combat it is with facts.

    Personally, I don’t think I’ve been voyeuristic about this. Although I have always been interested in new religious movements / cults, I don’t watch Big Love. I thought it was pretty funny that the Plural Life blog has more coverage about Big Love than the Allen Keate trial.

    But I agree that we need to always reconsider our actions and our motives as objectively as we are able, or we risk becoming worse than Brooke, Trent or even Bill M.

  437. Warren Jeffs was making decisions way before his father died. He of course Used his father’s name in declaring revelations, but they were Warrens words..
    As was mentenioned in Warren Jeffs Trail He taught in an” Orwellian” way, meaning (The ruling elite purposely keep the masses ignorant of the true workings of government to keep power. Propaganda, secrecy, censorship, and intentional obscuring of language- all these keep the masses unconscious of reality)

  438. “The ruling elite purposely keep the masses ignorant of the true workings of government to keep power. Propaganda, secrecy, censorship, and intentional obscuring of language- all these keep the masses unconscious of reality”

    Aside from the legal ramifications (criminal and civil), Warren was/is greatly concerned with his masses reading his dictations.

    Given the time, we could pull up numerous comments of his after his arrest wherein he expresses his desire that “the people” learn about those things only as filtered through the priesthood.

    It doesn’t take too much reading of his dictations to figure out why he fears “the people” reading his words.

    I suspect we haven’t even seen the worst of what they might contain.

  439. Much of what was first posted on the ‘Priesthood Record’ had entire days of dictations deleted, it was not a full record. Warren’s designed intrigue of keeping his marriages to his father, Rulon Jeffs wives, hidden fact is just typical of his manipulations and need to control by an ‘unseen hand’. His planned defiance of law enforcement and flight from justice is his preferred method of dealing with lawful authority(s), more commonly referred to as outlaw behavior. Living by his theocracy of beliefs puts him and his congregation in direct conflict with our existing Law & Order. His criminal and undeclared ‘Holy War’ is displayed in his teachings, trainings and dictations. The FLDS Church under his prophetic leadership is solely devoted to his revelations and decisions of every action, regardless of any legal or criminal consequences.

  440. It doesn’t take too much reading of his dictations to figure out why he fears “the people” reading his words.

    Didn’t Rod Parker do a lot of work to try to keep the dictations present with Warren when he as arrested out of the public eye?

    I’m surprised they haven’t been litigating now trying to keep this stuff secret. I guess they haven’t read the Scientology litigation manual.

  441. The Warrenite faithful could use a new theme song – like my “pingy pangy” one from R.E.M:

    Oh, life is bigger
    It’s bigger than you
    And you are not me
    The lengths that I will go to
    The distance in your eyes
    Oh no, I’ve said too much
    I set it up

    That’s me in the corner
    That’s me in the spotlight, I’m
    Losing my religion
    Trying to keep up with you
    And I don’t know if I can do it
    Oh no, I’ve said too much
    I haven’t said enough
    (etc., etc.)
    The rest of it is even better…

  442. There’s undoubtedly stuff in there that does not reflect well on Rod Parker.

  443. speaking of songs, I think Metallica’s “Leper Messiah” has a lot of parallels to Warren Jeffs.

  444. I am about to share a post I made at the Plural Life blog. The reason I am sharing it here is because I don’t know if I did it right or if it will show up.

    Why am I posting it here? Because the focus should be on what those documents are all about not Brooke, not Blues, not who owns what blog.

    Here it is.

    Brooke I don’t understand.

    You are a talented writer who could have easily turned this into a story writing about the abuses of Polygamy.

    You didn’t. Instead your focus was/is on a blog owner. Why? You knew where those documents came from. You seem to contact the source right away.

    Where is your outrage at the abuses towards the children? Instead your focus is on where these were posted.

    I’ve said all along that I am against Polygamy and the abuses involved. I’ve never hid that fact.

    With everything said and done maybe now you can write a report on the abuses found in these documents. You could have easily used this person as a source instead you attacked. That is wrong.

    Unless you of course want to keep this story focused on a blog owner.

    Anxiously waiting for the real story/stories.

  445. Walton

    I think I love you!


  446. Good Post Walton,, but I doubt she will publish it

  447. Thanks for posting it here though Walton!

  448. She doesn’t allow any of my posts any longer, LOL I haven’t a clue why?

  449. Ron,

    I don’t think Parker represented Warren at that time or in that regard. Warren didn’t trust Parker after 2005 and probably still doesn’t.

    One of Warren’s criminal defense counsel, Richard Wright, fought to have the documents that were seized when Warren was arrested (and those seized when his brother Seth was arrested) excluded from his criminal trial in Utah and Wright also worked to prevent them from being turned over to Wisan.

    I believe an agreement was reached with Wisan that some of those documents would be kept confidential and of course, they were used in the criminal trial.

    Some folks who have their drawers bunched up over this stuff have forgotten that Wisan sought documents from Texas way back when in 2008.

    The subpoena

    What’s requested in the subpoena from items authorities seized at the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado:

    • All documents or objects owned by Warren Jeffs, imprisoned leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that indicate a relationship between any defendant and the YFZ Ranch, Limited Liability Co.

    • All documents or objects that mention or relate to: the United Effort Plan Trust; Bruce Wisan, court-appointed special trustee of the UEP Trust; possession or ownership of “The Temple” on the YFZ Ranch; any trustee of the UEP Trust; the funding used to acquire the YFZ Ranch; the organization, ownership, management or control of YFZ Ranch, LLC; assets of any defendant; assets of the UEP Trust.

    • All documents or objects listed on an investigation evidence list attached to the “State’s Motion to Transfer Seized Property” filed in 51st District Court of Schleicher County on April 10 if they mention or relate in any way to: any defendant, Wisan, the UEP Trust, any prior trustee of the UEP Trust or the temple on the YFZ Ranch.

    • All documents or objects listed on the “Investigation Evidence List” attached to the motion to transfer seized property that mention or relate to: any defendant, Wisan, the UEP Trust, any prior trustee of the UEP Trust or the temple.

  450. Warren didn’t trust parker cause he owned Parker and his firm over 400,000 dollars in lawyers fees.. Parker asked to be dismissed from the case, then filed suit against flds for payment,,,

    Somewhere along the way, Parker got paid,, cause he is back representing Flds.

  451. why do they even have Lawyers?? They refuse any lawyer’s advice,, in the dicttions released back last years, it talks about how Warren says, he REFUSES to do what thier lawyers want him to do!

  452. Ya think?

  453. Wawl! Maam! yes I do 🙂

  454. Parker’s firm was paid out of the proceeds from the sale of the Apple Valley properties after Wisan was appointed fiduciary and they worked out an agreement in regards to the sale of those properties.

  455. Parker filed his lien against the properties prior to withdrawing as counsel representing the Trust in the civil suits.

  456. Ifin I was a lawyer, That would be good money,, to just file and file and file and make motions,, and never do much and get paid Big Bucks!

  457. right twist, what you said,, i just got it backwards

  458. Facts get turned around in my head at times, just to much information to remember on the spot! But im glad someone here does! Thanks Twist

  459. As I recall after Parker was paid, Warren pocketed a cool $4 million, and gleefully noted how happy he was in dictations.

    Off on a spending spree! Just imagine what he could do with $4 million. Well, he’s probably about run through it now, no doubt.

  460. What? So PARKER gets paid from the trust so he can continue to cause trouble for the trust. Makes perfect sense to me. NOT.

  461. Guess how many UEP benies in the Crick got a bump from the millions Warren snaked. I hope Wisan tracks it down and returns it.

    He might have to sell all those houses of hiding and scattered Zipper ranches to do it though.

  462. It seems Parker had his hand in selling trust lands to pay attorney fees first, thereby setting the gold standard, as it were.

    Warren approved of it all, must have been a God thing all along.

  463. Betty said:

    ” The enemy of the FLDS is not law enforcement or the gentile world; it’s their own leadership.”

    So true. But how do you convince loyal worshippers whose whole foundation of faith and hope for eternal life is based on a tradition of believing in and obeying the current prophet? Its so much more complicated than the easier, more merciful faith of the majority of us.

  464. Anon

    That brings us back to cults, especially the criminal enterprise cults, and how society deals with them.

    Obviously allowing this experiment to run its course has cost a lot of human misery and the few that benefited now are being held accountable legally.

    I really dont care what people believe, and what adults do, but in the polygamy house children seem to be the ever present victim.

    Polygamy isnt like gays, its more like gays adopting children and forcing them to be gay too or else they are told they will go to hell.

    Let me know if you need a passage fom Jeffs where he tells people they will be going to hell, I’ve got a bunch stored up for you.

  465. Good analogy, Stamp.

  466. Warren:

    “I bring this message to you, one and all, that
    you do not have to follow your husband to hell if
    that is where he wants to go; and I teach you these
    principles that you may understand.”


    Isnt that nice? Warren says you dont have to go to hell with your apostate husband if you play musical beds with him and his homies.

    Can you feel the love?

  467. I know what you mean about so much information, dd.

    I’m having a harder time recalling some of it than I used to.

    Combination of information overload and my age.

  468. She doesn’t allow any of my posts any longer, LOL I haven’t a clue why?

    deputydog1 said this on February 10, 2010 at 1:18 PM

    Yet she allowed Carolyn Jessop to be called “a whore.” Go figure.

  469. Well goody,, Walton’s post got in!!1

    Yes Anon,, I know brooke allowed it,,she is also for some reason putting diggs into TexasBluesman,, what is with this fluzzy?

  470. DD

    Ditzy Floosy Alert?

  471. LOL Stamp,, True!!

  472. Yes Anon,, I know brooke allowed it,,she is also for some reason putting diggs into TexasBluesman,, what is with this fluzzy?
    I figure she’s either mad at being shown up as a lazy journalist, or else Wee Willie is mad about the dictations getting out and asked her to pass it on.

  473. And of course the pedophile defenders are dancing their usual two-step on the Plural Life:
    1. That’s not true! Prove it, prove it! Where’s the evidence?
    2. Ew that’s gross! Take the evidence away! You’re horrible for showing it!

  474. Well there should be one more coming thru.

    I am touched by the CONCERNED folks out there.

    If my offer to “chip in a little something” is offensive to anyone it was not my intent.

  475. Well put, ellie. Exactly my thoughts.

  476. Walton,

    Why on earth would anyone be offended by that? If you are getting documents legally from the courthouse and you have to pay for them, maybe scan them, upload them, etc. then there are costs involved. I can’t see how it could be anything but kind to want to share in the costs. The only way anyone would object is if they thought there we a problem with sharing them in the first place, in which case, they should address it with those who entered it into court in such a way as to make it available to the public.

  477. Has anyone wondered how they can have a Church and no Prophet? They make claims that Wendall is the President but yet they have no Church.

    In all the years history to the best of my knowledge this has not happened. These changes are new.

    Doesn’t it make one wonder that if they can make these changes going against all their own rules and history that they can’t change the ” I must have 3 wives or more to gain my own Kingdom rule”?

  478. Betty there is a post made on a different blog and I just wanted to clear it up.

    I don’t want anyone to misunderstand my offer. Some CONCERNED person apparently wants to push some buttons. Silly. Pliggy can vouch for me when I say I am like a pit bull that won’t let go when it comes to sticking up for what I think is right.

    If anyone knows Pliggy really well ask him to show you the teeth marks I’ve left in him. We kinda made up though. I stopped attacking him and he stopped annoying me. Fair is fair.

  479. “The Warrenite faithful could use a new theme song – like my “pingy pangy” one from R.E.M.” A Texan says thanks for the post, hear’s the song for for Waren , Willie, Wendell and Wee Willie the thug!

  480. hey street popped up on brookes latest, here is my reply


    Perhaps you should be more concerned about the ongoing abuses Warren subjected the FLDS people with from the time of his aspiring to power to the time he was captured on that FBI Top Ten most wanted Warrant.

    The Trib has been very loyal to the FLDS and hasnt published anything that would embarrass them.

    Remember the “Rejected of God” dictations, or the “Dusting my Shoes on the nation and Shortcreek too” dictations? All kept under wraps, I guess for a special day.”

  481. Yes, Walton, I read that Concerned post. That person also thinks there were inappropriate discussion of people’s sex lives, which I think shows a remarkably active imagination on their part.

    Pliggy can be somewhat loveable, but he’s mostly a jerk.

  482. I made a response on Brooke’s blog, my first in weeks, but I doubt she’ll allow it.

  483. Walton

    Concerned is “On the Street”, an exed cricker evidently still defending them, and he has been banned from about every internet blog site for language unbecoming a crikker.

    I know he was bounced off Brookes blog, but is on again with that handle which he used here until he was banned yet again.

    Funny, this must have sobered him up or he is on better meds now.

  484. Concerned is on the street?

    lol oh my heck. Well that makes sense. I remember reading way too many of Streets posts on the plyg forum. That was a message board run by Jim A. I think. I learned a lot there as well.

    Stamp thanks for the video.

  485. On the subject of FLDS theme songs, I always thought Your Southern Can Is Mine would be an apt song. It’s by Blind Willie McTell song from the 1930s, so it’s traditional and stuff.

    Now lookie here momma, let me explain ya this
    You wanna get crooked, I’ll even give you my fist
    You might read from Revelations, back to Genesis
    You can’t forget your southern can belongs to me

    You might go uptown, have me arrested, have me put in jail
    Some hotshots got money, gonna pull my bail
    Soon as I get out, hit the ground
    Your southern can is worth two dollars a half a pound

    You might take it from the south baby, hide it up north
    But understand you can’t rule me and be my boss
    Take from the east, hide it in the west
    When I get you momma, your can’ll see no rest

    So there ain’t no use in bringing no jive to me
    Your southern can is mine
    I know it
    Your southern can belongs to me

  486. They could sing it to open meetings, as a reminder that they all belong to the Priesthood, and the Priesthood can make bail.

  487. oh the music video clip was from A Texan.

    Thanks. I liked it.

    A little music, a little humor does a body good.

    Robert Kirby at the tribune has a good article today. Nothing to do with the FLDS or polygamy. He usually has something that will make a person smile.

  488. Ahhh… that was nice to hear again. Ya just have to listen to that and imagine BEING a FLDS insider – gradually, literally losing your religion.

    “What if all these fantasies / Come flailing ’round

    But that was just a dream”

    Thanks for posting that Texan!

  489. Well, that explains why Concerned thought we were talking about sex. You could quote the menu at Bob Evans and Street would think it was about sex. Street accused me of having sex with my computer and giving it a virus. LOL.

  490. Wow, she published my comment! Must be a good day.

  491. Betty, that’s REALLY funny!

  492. For some reason I thought Concerned on Brooke’s blog was 40anddelusional/MaryKay/I_am_a_Bigot.

  493. I may be tilting at windmills here, but I see quotes and answers from Trent to Milee. I don’t know what site they’re lifted from, but it’s not me.

    FLDS TEXAS can see I’m not where I usually am, but I’ve been here a couple of weeks.

    Other than that, was anyone hurt when the tornado blew through? I’m going back to the WTF, it’s much safer there.

  494. Miele,

    There was a troll infestation last night. Someone fumigated earlier today.

  495. Thanks Twist. Glad to hear that. It was a bit disorienting.

  496. Anyone else read the Success today? There is an article about Allen Keate filing for indigent status. I’m not sure how far I can go without making Randy Mankin mad. If there is a news article on it, I can’t find it.

    Ron mentioned a while back how expensive it is to get copies of trial transcripts. Keate now has a different attorney and is asking Texas to pick up the cost of that.

  497. hmmm, did Flds dump keate? sure looks like it! If so, he I guess could be appointed a public defender for his appeal, but Im not sure Gerry Goldstein would do any public defending. he’s a pretty high priced attorney.

  498. dep, if I read it right he’s retaining Gerry Goldstein for appeal.

    According to the article, Judge Walther was asking him some very pointed questions.

  499. Miele, there is someone going around impersonating our login names and making ugly comments. It’s happened to quite a few of us. Childish, huh?

  500. That practice goes way way back. Ask Huesos.

  501. Miele,
    I don’t think the taxpayers should pay for BIG TIME lawyers! If Mr Keate is indigent, then he should be appointed a public defender!

  502. doodle duane in drag who da thunk it

  503. I have to disagree about “Concerned” being “On the Street”. I think the comment made by Concerned is much too lucid to be Street and it lacks his typical scriptural rantings and silly rhymes/puns.

  504. I’m not sure if you can plead indigent and then have a high dollar attorney on the payroll. Also if the FLDS are paying all these bills they should keep doing so as long as some get representation.

    In other words, since they live and pool communal money, they shouldnt pay some high priced attorneys and forsake others. So, they can plead indigent for the lot of them, or none of them IMHO.

  505. Anon, true that,

    but the poster street used that handle here and he was banned again. I’d agree if that was street, he had a mental change effected by meds or sobering facts. The “real” street is pretty much out of control all the time, lucid posts would be rare.

  506. Betty, yes, makes you wonder if you’re not getting close to hitting a nerve when they do that. I saw the one over at Blues, where they did it to you.

    The last thing I posted was for ellie to go for it! I come back and Trent’s answering me, or a misspelled me.

    Did milee or mileee sue anyone or answer them nothing?. Because that would make me mad, and I’d have to sue myself again.

    D-dog, I don’t think indigent and Gerry Goldstein go in the same sentence. It’s some kind of FLDS slow walk. BTW, I like the D-dog teeth! I think Judge Walther must be approaching sainthood, this would have pushed me over the edge.

    Huesos got it too? FLDS TEXAS ADM is smart. Left the real ones, nailed the fake ones.

    Stamp, doodles can drag all he wants, but I draw the line when it comes to my pink Lucchese boots. Keep your feet off pervy-boy!

  507. But then he said that somebody was posting sex dictations, and it takes such a vivid imagination to extrapolate that from the directive to make sure the young wives are with child.

  508. Miele


    Indeed! Just think – Hughs best friend is an internet tranny tooting about playing sock puppet. Hugely McDimlite must be proud of his buddies.

  509. Winston Blackmore is on Nat Geo Channel now.

  510. The Nationa Geographic Channel right now has a real good show about Winston Blackmoore and the FLDS. It sure makes sense how Warren despises him. Very good reporting, very honest.

  511. I thought it was slightly biased to make Winston Blackmore look somewhat like a hero.
    They should have interviewed his first wife the midwife who left him.
    The interviews with Mary Mackert were interesting.

  512. Hey, I heard that if any FLDS member is caught even logging on to this web site they are kicked out of the church…talk about not having any privacy….ever…anywhere…at all!

  513. oh, and I forgot to direct you to a cool video on youtube “how to become a cult leader” get out the grape kool-aid HERE WE COME! 🙂
    I don’t know if it has ever been posted on this website, but I figure you’ll love it a second time.

  514. Plus 3

    Is that a threat or have you heard of cases? I thought I heard in the past year or two there have been exings still, do you know why?

  515. Found this interesting article, it’s long but worth a read, on Warren Jeffs:

    The title of the article is: “The False Prophet: Warren Jeffs”

    Ain’t that the truth!

    Speaking of false polygamist prophets, here’s another article about a Warren Jeffs wannabe, IMO kinda like a certain Hugh Mc Bile aka Vile we all have heard of.

  516. Plus3, I really doubt anyone would get kicked out of Flds by logging onto this website

  517. Was that the same interview from a year or more ago?

  518. I didnt get to watch OftenLate, we don’t have NG channel

  519. Oh a PSA

    The handle user “Concerned” posting on Brookes blaugh is none other than 40 sumpthin, she declared herself

    “40andnotmarried: 2/10/2010 6:45:00 PM

    F&R – I’m not on the street. Concerned, me, is also not on the street – you know this.

    Please delete your post stating I’m this poster.

    I will also request others delete the posts claiming I’m this poster.”

  520. Just popping in for a minute. For those that missed the early show on the NG channel there is one scheduled for later. I was running late and only saw the last 20 minutes. I plan on watching the whole show later on tonight.

    It really looked good.

    Brooke has a couple of new entries on her blog. Yes, you want to see what she wrote. Tastefully done imo. Thanks Brooke. I left a note for you but I don’t know if it took.

  521. The Winston Blackmore special on Nat Geo was filmed in the late summer 2009 apparently.
    Maybe we should ask Yehaaa6 if it is true people get ex’ed if they come to this site.

  522. Plus3 if thats true what you said,, Please be careful

  523. that’s what’s funny is they ban everything that could get these ppl to wake up!…so if I was an FLDS person looking for answers to my questions, all I would have to do is go to where the leaders tell me not too. Brilliant isn’t it!

  524. lol yup. sounds like street always denying everything.

    I know. I know.

    I am paving my own way. And besides I am using the crying towel to wipe dishes.

    Bad Walton. Bad Walton.

  525. DD1, you can watch it here:

  526. Plus3, im sure there are many who WON’T read this site, because they believe the crapola the church has lead them to believe.. But I hope there are some seeking the truth about what and how leadership in Flds really works..

  527. Thanks!!! LadySadie!!

  528. Actually guess that is only the trailer for the Nat Geo show.

  529. I posted this on the Open Discussion thread, but since y’all are all over here, I’ll put it here:

    This is a summary of what Keate said at the hearing and what was in his affidavit as reported by the Success:

    He was paid in food as well as room and board for his family at the ranch.

    Also received $30,000 a year to support his family.

    Occupies two UEP Trust homes in Short Creek. Is a beneficiary to the trust.

    When Eric Nichols asked how he paid for items such as computers, furniture, etc. that was in the affidavit, he said Barbara Jessop gave him the money for those things when he requested.

    His family was provided with “several thousand dollars” by the church after April 2008.

    When asked who paid for his trial attorney he said he did not know.

    Supports 27 people, including 21 children from age 6 months to 16 years.

    Judge Walther asked him if he was aware of “an individual contract” with Goodfellow Construction. He said he was not.

    Walther also asked him if he was not living at the ranch if he was entitled to funds from it; he said he was not.

    No assets other than a 2000 model minivan and a bank account with a $15 balance.

    His counsel at the hearing was Karyl Anderson Krug.

    In the affidavit he said that “family and church members” paid for his attorneys but “have no legal obligation” to pay for transcripts and other court records that are needed for the appeal.

    That may be referring to the attorneys who have represented him thus far post-conviction.

  530. Thanks Ladie Sadie.:)

  531. Twist

    Great info. He doesnt know who paid his attorney aye? Well, lets open that can of worms up a bit. Its the FLDS gravy train, if they want to pay for one they can pay for all, or be indigent for all.

    Aint that what commie life is all about?

  532. Alright just one more.

    I just read some of what 40’s said elsewhere. I am not taking back nothing. Nothing.

    She/HE can keep Howling at the moon and I mean every word I say. And HE knows it.

    Tsk Tsk Tsk.

  533. I forgot to add this. No I am not angry. Bill and I go thru this all the time. Right Bill?

    lol crazy old fart

  534. The Keate indigency thing raises some interesting issues. They want to have it both ways it seems. One for all and all for one when it suits them, but when there’s something they can get from the government, suddenly they dont have a couple of pennies to rub together. Kind of like Merril and his claim of no assets, no income to pay child support while he hires teams of lawyers to defend him on criminal charges and in the child support case.

    So is this just more bleeding the beast or has Keate now been rejected of God and is cut off from the FLDS money? How is it that Raymond is not indigent under the same circumstances? Favored son? Or not playing the FLDS games?

  535. so if he is indigent does he get to pick his attorney or is one appointed for him. also, i didn’t realize that appeals came along with indigency, only his right to an attorney at trial.

  536. This seems to be where everyone is posting so I’ll just post what I did on the open discussion……

    Hi all. This is just a quick drive by. I am behind in my reading so someone may have already posted this. If they have, I apologize for the double post.

    For any one interested….. There’s a show airing tonight on Nat Geo Channel at 11:00 pm Central Standard Time called Inside Polygamy: Life In Bountiful. The description sounds like it is Winston Blackmore and his ‘extennnnded’ family life’s story. Having to record mine to watch later. Morning comes way too early for me to watch tonight but thought I’d let you guys know in case you didn’t already. Night all. Sweet Dreams.

  537. “How is it that Raymond is not indigent under the same circumstances?”

    Good question.

    Maybe he was rat-holing away some of his earnings when he was being “corrected.”

    Or he has assets such as trucks.

    Which reminds me to look something up.

  538. i’d like to know about indigent people requesting high priced attorneys to file an appeal for them also. seems a little strange to me, but maybe its just me.

    my thought is if he can’t pay for his appeal, he doesn’t get to appeal.

    who’s going to pay for emack’s appeal lawyer? oh yeah, he filed an answer of no contest and doesn’t have they 2 week trial to pay an attorney for.

    raymond’s brother is up next? wonder if he’ll try the indigent route himself or if daddy who can’t afford child support will pony up money for his attorney.

    and speaking of babs, why is she passing out the money? was she first presidency?

    so many questions and no real answers.

  539. Wasn’t/isn’t Raymond one of the stockholders of YFZ Land, LLC?

  540. If he is indigent and given an appeals lawyer, it will be a lawyer appointed by the court. He does not get to choose his attorney.

  541. Twist — Yes, Raymond is one of the owners of YFZ Land LLC, but we don’t know what percentage ownership. And remember YFZ Land LLC supposedly has no assets any more because they were all transferred into the Texan Heritage Trust…..

  542. About Barbara Jessop giving Keate money to live on — what a crock! What he actually meant is that he went to the Bishop for his “just wants and needs”, that would be Bishop Merril Jessop who testified that he kept all the money that magically appeared at his office, and he paid for the people to go to the doctor and dentist and whatever else they needed. Of course, Keate can’t just come out and tattle on Merril, so he blames it on a dead woman who cannot be questioned. What a bunch of yellow-bellied cowards.

  543. Oh, and I know that Judge Walther would never be fooled by such shenanigans. Her questions that she asked Keate indicate that she is very well informed about what’s going on, not only in Texas but in Utah and Arizona also.

  544. Here’s the SL Tribs take on the “Warren Jeffs” dictations, appears that Brooke is pointing fingers at Malonis. It appears that instead of reporting on the story, Brooke is becoming part of the story.

  545. brooke wants to make herself more important than she really is.

  546. hey twist, if you are still on, check your email.

  547. yeah, wouldn’t merril come unglued if keate squealed on him.

  548. Checked, PT.


  549. leroy better not pull a plea deal like emack did, i don’t want to get jipped out of attending his trial.

  550. brooke wants to make herself more important than she really is.

    National Geo makes her look like pretty small potatoes.

  551. Brooke’s latest post says Warren’s DIARY was wrongly posted – I was thinking there’s ANOTHER set of papers, but then I realized that is what she is calling the dictations.

    So, there have been dictations posted on this site for ages – nobody noticed?

  552. Raymond said he was a partner at Western Precision. I don’t remember reading that.
    Did he get a cut when that was sold? Was he handed some shares in the NewEra plant in Nevada?
    He said that they live at the Ranch and yet he has two other homes that he pays taxes on. Has he paid those taxes? And who is living there now?
    If he has monies coming to him if they sell of the UEP would he have to transfer those monies over to the State of Texas?
    If he didn’t get a paycheck wouldn’t the Ranch have to account for his wages somewhere?

  553. Oh yeah. I am really curious when Raymond filed taxes last.
    Did he claim his wives and were each one of them for the earned income tax credit.

    I thought the NG film was pretty good. Wonderful scenery. And I think they touched an awful lot of bases inside of one hour.

    I try to understand the whole concept about the being Kingdom holders and all that and I just can’t grasp it. So I tried to make sense out of all the rest. I can’t.

    I tried really hard to kinda like the Grandpa with so many kids running around him but I kept thinking of Mary Mackert.

    I tried really hard to admire these women for working so hard but then again they wouldn’t have to work that hard if they all didn’t live together.

    I tried to understand Winston talking about money issues but I kept thinking about all the monies he owes Canada for back taxes.

    I tried to understand Winston when he was talking about being a minister in his religion and not a prophet. Nope I didn’t ger that either.

    I tried to like Winston. But I realized once again I don’t. He’s a liar and a cheat.

    I did like the show though. Mary Mackert gave a great description of her life as a wife in Polygamy.

    And Sam Brower was in the film. I can see he takes his job seriously and he keeps a lot to himself. That guy has seen an awful lot. jmo I like him.

  554. I saw the last half. Interesting details about Winston, but now he is countersuing the Canadian government, I think that is going to backfire on him bigtime.

    Indeed the story is, a lot of crikkers left and went up there, in a bums rush that spun Warren and Wendell out. People would tattle tale or not tattle tale and then everyone went wobbly and had tissy fits.

    Many of the folks who left just abandoned their stuff in the night and vamoosed, and got out of that rat hole where Warren made himself Queen.

  555. At least Warren left and went to another rat hole, before doing the really ratty rat hole tour he is currently enjoying.

  556. i’ve got lots of questions about keate and his supposed indigent status myself. i’ll see how they play out, but i don’t for a second believe he’s indigent and if he has been cut off by the ranch then he no longer has 27 dependents as they will all be reassigned to a new priesthood.

    also, the 6 month old makes me wonder which wife it belongs to.

  557. I thought that one of the big benefits of polygamy was that the women were empowered due to their own co-operation. So Keate has 27 dependants and not a damned one of them even has a job as cashier at a 7-11? Come on. He’s got three houses of people not working and we’re going to believe that they were all living on thirty thousand a year and nothing else?

  558. Rampant semi-informed speculation ahead –

    1. The FLDS are going to be able to a large extent “cookie cutter” the appeals process. Probably 80-90% issues raised on appeal will be exactly the same with each individual defendant. Basically, you can write one brief and then by changing names and perhaps adding maybe a few sections write the brief for the next guy.

    2. So, to a large extent I’d imagine that the actual attorneys for the appeals have probably mostly been paid. Whoever is writing the brief for Jessop will have most of the work product already done.

    3. The variable between the appeals is what’s known as the appellate record. This is a combination of the legal documents filed with the court (called the “clerk’s record”) and the transcript of the trial (called the “reporters record”).

    4. As the locals on this board know, court reporters are in a business and transcripts are not cheap. I had a 3 day jury trial and the bill for the reporters transcript was about $3,500.

    5. What Keate is primarily asking for is the county to pick up the tab for his transcript. Which given Judge Walther’s long hours is probably a pretty substantial sum.

    6. This explains another reason why the last guy plead out. He was going to be found guilty, it wasn’t that likely that he’d generate any additional appellate points by trying the case (certainly not enough to justify the cost of a transcript on appeal.)

    7. Keate could very well be legally indigent. It’s hard for the State to prove a negative, i.e. oh, they’d lend you the money. Ironically, what may trip him up may be Wisan who could testify to the value of his UEP property.

  559. And so, on point 7, it’s good for them to stall the UEP dispersment as long as possible. If he actually OWNED two houses, then he would not be indigent, none of them would. And being high up in the caste system, those are probably pretty nice houses.

  560. If I remember correctly, wasn’t it during the Keate’s trial that the business man from Arizona or Utah came and vouched for Keate’s, something about doing millions of dollars worth of business with him just on a handshake? What happened to his million dollar handshake? What happened to the millions of dollars?

    Indigent my Aunt Fannies ass!

  561. Good points Ron

    I also wonder if he owns two homes in the creek, who occupies them and what is their income.

    Is there welfare involved.

    Money trail.

    Who paid for his trial, and who is paying for the other attorneys, if its the same, duh, then they can just keep paying.

    Or they can all plead indigent. Kinda hard to do with a hundred mil in assets though.

    Then this baby that is six months old? A good reason to revoke bail on those assholes – while out on bail they are living a felony in front of children.

    Texans cool with all that? I know Utah hardly frowns on child molesters, thought Texans had more class?

  562. Also, that appeal template might work and might not. I tend to think the prosecution would be able to come up with new and improved tactics each case.

    But it also points to the fact that each new perp shouldnt get the chance to appeal upon pleading = this is for the prosecutor to recognize and disallow. I would say let them plead guilty or not guilty and be done with it.

  563. Then this baby that is six months old? A good reason to revoke bail on those assholes – while out on bail they are living a felony in front of children.

    That is an interesting point Stamp. I suspect the reason they aren’t revoking their bail is that apparently Schleicher county wants to incarcerate these guys for as short of time as possible. I’d imagine that has to do with limited jail space and the cost of housing and feeding prisoners.

    Justice ain’t cheap and dollars and cents do make a difference.

  564. Indigent my Aunt Fannies ass!

    It’s actually not that uncommon for someone to be found indigent and get a free record and then the family hires an appellate lawyer.

    Factually indigent and legally indigent are two very different concepts.

  565. One thing that’s bothered me from the beginning. You can’t just take envelopes with $50,000 and distribute that without any reporting, well, not legally you can’t. If you are a non profit church (which they are not), then you don’t have to pay taxes on it, but you do have to report it and you have some limitations on how you disperse it.

    Since they are not a non profit church and the tithings now do not go through the trust fund, they are legally gifts and as such have to be reported as such on income taxes. Ditto gifts of real value. If someone “gives” you medical care, computers, furniture, a new truck, then that’s taxable income if it meets the dollar value stated by the IRS for a year. I’m just not believing that 28 people live in three houses in two states and the freebees do not amount to more than $10K a year.

    Another thing that really tears me up is all the people who claimed that the FLDS lived well on no money and lots of babies because they are “self reliant” and have gardens and such. As if having a garden is something the rest of America can’t comprehend. I don’t care how far you stretch that tomato sauce, it’s not buying you a new Ford Explorer. Somebody, somewhere has some folding green.

    How do 27 people in two states live with just one old minivan? NONE of them have any assets in their own name? NONE of them have gotten rid of assets in the last two years?

    The IRS should audit everyone in this group.

  566. Oh, and then there’s another thing. How come they are all one household, living in houses they don’t own or lease, getting food from the group, using money from Babs to pay for shoes when it comes to asking for legal aide, but they are separate households when it comes to warrants? Either they are living in community or they are not.

  567. i agree betty, they have continued to say they are individual households, but keate just testified that he lives at the mercy of babs (wonder who’s taken her place handing out money).

  568. Betty

    Technically, gifts aren’t income. A single donor is supposed to file a gift tax return for anything over $10,000 to a single recipient but since most of the time that’s only an informational return with no tax due it’s often overlooked and certainly isn’t on the IRS radar.

    There’s lot they should be audited for, but gift tax fraud would not be high on the list.

  569. “Macanas said she’s dealt with cases in which a person living in and receiving public assistance from Arizona has applied for welfare in Utah.”

    hmmm, I wonder who she’s referring to?

    Bill that would prevent, prosecute welfare fraud advances

  570. Oh, they be gettin audited. I think this site compiled some $5 million in IRS liens, including some on Warren. While the IRS may not have gone after them in the past for crazy spending, no telling when they will start.

    It seems all the IRS money is going to attorneys. At some point they are going to get jealous.

  571. Whoa, this tread has gotten off track and its too long!

    Mosey your pony over to Discussion #26 please.

    Lots of great info, keep it coming!

  572. LOOK justice can actually happen in Utah!

    Judge gives child rapist 50 years in prison

    Mother defends husband who raped her daughter.

  573. Impressive!. I learned a lot here.

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