General Discussion #25 – Allan Steed’s turn up at bat

Todays FLDS Drama – 1:30 MTN time 1-29-2010,

Oral arguments in the Allan Steed case in Utah.

FLDS Baker’s Dozen

Thirteen (derived from devil’s dozen where baker=devil)

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on January 29, 2010.

759 Responses to “General Discussion #25 – Allan Steed’s turn up at bat”

  1. So is someone else pleading today?

  2. It looks like there will be a little drama today on the FLDS front after all.

    How soon we forget. What a smorgasbord of smash hits the FLDS play!

  3. On schedule for today: Allen Glade Steed at 1:30 will have oral arguments in WA County Ut for rape of Elissa Wall

  4. is this an actual trial for steed or is it just some sort of hearing?

  5. I think it is just some sort of hearing

  6. That kiss looks a little forced and very uncomfortable for Elissa. Steed seems to be enjoying himself. So all you FLDS lovers out there, this is not a “smiling photo” of Elissa here.

  7. Thanks for the contact numbers, were either of these women in the group?.

  8. looks way forced to me little ex plig kid. like she’s trying to push him away.

  9. Elissa is not embracing him.
    She has her hands against her chest, in a guarding type of gesture. He is embracing her.
    It’s clear to me that she is not interested in contact with him.

  10. The most revealing of Wedding photos.

    Match was forced, and not in heaven. See Warren cool his heels.

  11. Is the Steed hearing on the defense’s Motion to Dismiss on the Statute of Limitations?

  12. Agree, cw and Stamp.

    That is a photo of a person resisting.

  13. A little girl resisting.

  14. Would love to be a fly on the wall in that hearing!

  15. heres a very brief story on the hearing today.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9503493

  16. I wish to give a news flash to all the members of the ‘Accessories and Accomplices’ Association (AAA)

    BIG Question : Can a husband rape his wife?

    ‘Gentile’ Answer : YES, NO means no!

  17. 1. she wasn’t his legal wife

    2. it wasn’t legal for her to married in utah in 2001

    3. he was 19, she was 14

    4. they were First Blood cousins, which mean it was illegal for them to marry even had they been legal age

    5. she told the prophet, (rulon jeffs) she didn’t want to be married

    6. she told her mother , she didn’t want to be married.

    How many times do people have to say that??

  18. obviously rulon and warren are a little slow.

  19. Actually the Celestial wedlock took place at Caliente Hot Springs Motel, Nevada and was illegal.

  20. Im just hoping the Judge in this case, doesn’t dismiss the case because of the statue thing. They have managed to screw around since 2007 when steed was charged,, and now its 2010

  21. Interesting commentary on the NG article:
    http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/01/29/the-mental-burqa-national-geographic-and-every-woman%E2%80%99s-right-to-slavery/

  22. Nice, hhg. Thanks.

  23. In the comments following the commentary, according to HJ11 not only are we haters, now we’re neurotic also. I wonder which Jessop/Jeffs posted it?

  24. Jeanette Pryor gets it what’s the problem at the ‘National Geographic’ writer Scott Anderson?
    Nice concise view of the truth HHG, thanks for sharing this commentary.

  25. I’ve been wondering what the readership of NG thinks about it.

  26. Miele,
    The poster is FLDS no doubt.
    The mitzvah (commandment) of brit milah (ritual circumcision) is a commandment of the Torah with a medical purpose.
    Circumcision reduces the incidence of cancer of the penis, and it reduces the likelihood of the female partners developing cervical cancer.
    Polygyny serves no medical purpose. Polygyny is associated with an increased risk of female partners developing cervical cancer.
    What is this medically ignorant poster’s point?

  27. I really thought the piece was awesome, and well written with facts established, which the first piece written was a Fluff piece.

  28. I think he was responding to the comment about female genital mutilation, as if that were roughly corresponding to circumcision. Unless the poster is woefully ignorant about what female genital mutilation is, then the post was downright hateful.

  29. Female genital mutilation is associated with adverse health outcomes for women. Well known, well documented.
    Circumcision is not associated with adverse health outcomes when performed by someone with experience, such as a mohel. Cancer of the penis is extremely difficult to treat, and circumcision lowers a man’s chance of developing that disorder to 0.
    The poster is a hateful idiot and an anti – Semite to boot.

  30. Agreed. And circumcision does not involve the loss of functionality of any sort or any long term pain, so to me it is not a comparison.

  31. Don’t you just love people who make excuses for this type of lifestyle?

  32. I never cease to be stunned at their nerve, or their use of non sequitors..what does the serial abuse of underage girls have to do with ritual circumcision, which actually serves a medical purpose ?
    It seems their responses are made to distract alone, not make sense.
    They just yell “religious bigot” and you are expected to back away… I am not falling for it.

  33. Wow, over 275,000 hits on this site. Maybe the WTF Ranch put us over the top ?

  34. CW, its called changing the subject! when confronted with realism of an act people don’t want to accept happens, they throw a curve ball of something totally ridiculus that has nothing to do with the subject matter

  35. DD -unfortunately in that poster’s mind I believe he does think they have something to do with each other. It’s a disturbed thought pattern, designed to be disgusting. And bigoted.

    CW – Maybe you’re on to something. I hope they enjoyed the WTF mock-a-thon.

  36. Well, HJ11 on the Nat Geo site sounds like Duane who is obviously obsessed with this issue and makes the same argument ad nauseum.

    There is one issue that I’m debating. That is the concept of female power. In order for this lifestyle to persist, it must have some female support. Clearly, folks like Barbara Jessop exerted substantial power.

    You have to wonder about the complicity of perhaps sociopathic females who are attracted to whatever power that lifestyle grants them.

  37. As does/did Naomie, Ron.

  38. Ron in Houston,
    Janet Bennion writes about these powerful women in her book Women of Principle. She is a PhD in cultural anthropology.
    She says that due to a shortage of men in their society, some powerful independent women rise to the top, although they don’t rise as high as the male leaders do. Apparently these women are somewhat vicious, gossipy, meddling, and controlling from what she describes

  39. Update, Allen glade Steed hearing

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=9503493

  40. You’re right, Ron. Some of the women clearly aid and abet in keeping the lifestyle going and it has to be because they are getting some basic need fulfilled through it. Is it power over sisterwives? The thrill of manipulating to get their own way? Who knows? The mentality is baffling to me.

  41. This may have been asked and answered, some time back….Was Allen Steed ever assigned another ‘wife’ or is he unwed and just waiting to see how this court action plays out?
    I’m a little on the fence about his ‘guilt’…..in that…..I think both are he and Elissa are victims of the Jeff’s regime…HOWEVER…rape is rape. He never took Elissa’s feelings/fears into consideration at all…she was his property, therefore sex was his to take. And he did.
    Was a decision ever made about WJ being called as a witness in this trial?

  42. i’ve wondered about allen too, was he ever assigned a new wife or wives?

  43. My understanding is that he hasn’t been given a new bride. I agree with you, to a very real degree he is also a victim in this matter. Even though he was 19, he probably didn’t have the cognitive skills to recognize just HOW wrong what he was doing is. It is a sad situation. (Honestly, I’m not sure if he really realizes the evil he participated in even now.)

  44. the hearing today was a hearing to have charges dismissed, becuase of statute of limitation on the rape. The judge will give a ruling on that next friday. Im assuming because Allen was 19 at the time, the court considered him responsible, even though Elissa was assigned to him.

  45. You’re right, Ron. Some of the women clearly aid and abet in keeping the lifestyle going and it has to be because they are getting some basic need fulfilled through it. Is it power over sisterwives? The thrill of manipulating to get their own way? Who knows? The mentality is baffling to me.
    ………………..

    Barbara Jessop seemed to be that type, from what I read about her.

  46. I also think there is another factor at play which Carolyn Jessop mentioned in ‘Escape.’ Certain families are flds royalty. They seemed to enjoy sticking it to non-royalty.

    Sounds to me like a good case of bad ‘scripting.’

  47. allen might also be a victim, but when given the chance to help his own cause, he made the choice to stick by warren.

  48. I agree, ProudTexan. I feel sorry for him but I think that the trial is appropriate. He IS a victim, but he also broke the law. It’s a lose/lose situation that Warren created and it just makes me want to cry.

  49. Im not real sure,, Im leaning toward Judge Beacham dismissing the charges, not because he wants to, but because of the statutes of limitations and when Elissa actually filed charges. I hope Im wrong

  50. Judge Beacham, cannot grant the motion regarding the Statute jmo. Think about it – if rape victims are narrowed down to reporting only police on duty, or only on 911- what message that sends to victims.

    It so happens that if Elissa had called 911 – she would have gotten Warrens henchmen on the other line, and it would stop right there – as has happened before. The FLDS keep sexual abuse in house – especially when said abuse is ordered by the head guy himself.

    Its completely rediculous to push this point and its simply another stall tactic – Belnap’s response wasn’t all excited like Bradshaw but rather simply pointing this out.

    Bradshaw acted like he gets paid too much, and I’m sure he is. Gotta stand up to the FLDS raping standards at any cost!

    Funny though that he would quote straight out of the above pictured book “Stolen Innocense” about her reluctance to report. I guess we can now use victims books in court?

    None of Bradshaw’s motions point to a moral exoneration of her abuser. They are simply technical arm wrestles, in an attempt to skate the law.

    To Elissa, I feel sorry for you and of course (most people) do too and wish you the best.

    Its common to not be excited about pushing for prosecution for someone in your life.

    However, that said, sometimes its needed to save the next generation of girls and victims coming up behind you. Please think of them. You have seen the FLDS continue the madness in Texas – it may well continue in Shortcreek, indeed statewide, without the proper messages ssent.

    Willie Jessop was there, to see if there was anyone he could intimidate. I think he has long ago ran out of Fundy Fear Factor, though he may scare the goats in Shortcreek.

    Allan was wearing extremely old worn out cowboy boots – which reminded me of the boots in the wedding pics.

    Shout outs to E, Sam, Gary Engels, Roger Hoole, and the Washington County prosecution team. And to Judge Beacham and various officers of the court.

    The statute of limitation hearing was not long, and only attended by a handful of shortcreek residents.

    It was performed in the brand new Courthouse on Tabernacle.

    Again, I dont see how Beacham could possibly give Bradshaw the point – if he were to, it would be a sad day for justice.

    I fullly expect it to proceed to trial, though noted at the hearing, Bradshaw has even MORE motions to delay the inevitable.

  51. If it gets dismissed because of statute of limitations, it should be able to be refiled since jeopardy hasn’t attached.

    I don’t think either side is looking forward to trying this case.

  52. Talk about a picture saying a thousand words….

    Look at the kiss picture of Elissa. Her arms are crossed in front of her in a defensive posture. It’s pretty clear to me that she is not enjoying that kiss.

    Having read her book, I’m certain it had a pretty high “ugh” factor.

  53. Elissa was further limited to reporting her rape by the fact that Short Creek Police were in Warren S. Jeffs influence and control. Where was she realistically going to report that by ‘good ole boy’ network her grievance wasn’t going to be shared/surfaced? Most FLDS women just take it and remain silent, even the apostates.

  54. Ron:
    ” That is the concept of female power. In order for this lifestyle to persist, it must have some female support”

    I agree. I would personally word it more strongly. This set up wouldn’t exist at all _without_ female support. The term “power” though, I think is not precisely accurate, but the subject is way too complicated for this internet blog. (“way” , that’s HoneyDawn talk…)

    Mob mentality is another trunk supporting this whole edifice. It exists of course in a certain form among the male priesthood heads of households, but what really makes the fundamentalist form of polygamy possible is mob mentality among the women.

  55. There is always that Huge odd blog that oozes misogynisim and narcissism.

    THAT is quite the study of a polygynist FUBAR power struggle that he often encounters between his ears.

    Someone needs to put him through a psychoanalysis meat grinder and see what comes out the other end.

  56. Anon and off again, Judith is saying that the interaction between men and women in this group is more complex than simple “power” scenarios. For instance, women on the bottom of the power scale still enable by participating rather than leaving. Their dynamic is different than that of a Barbara Jessop.

  57. At least, I THINK that’s what Judith is trying to say. I try not to speak for other people. 😉

  58. Yes, I’m a little insulted at the idea that we can’t handle a discussion of female power structures on this blog. We have at least one female doctor and many men and women here with college degrees. There are posts to studies about the impact of polygamy on families, etc.

    Speaking of which, I think power in this sense is relative. One of the ways that pyramid social structures work is that people will become very focused on maintaining and increasing their position of rank without analyzing whether or not the ranking system actually betters their lives. You get focused on how life is better for you than for the peons one layer below you in the caste system, rather than examining whether or not you would be better off out side the system.

    It happens in corporations as well. I have seen many people who thought their title or office with a door was critically important to their happiness, only to find, after they have been laid off and gotten new jobs, that they are happier without the rank but with some more interesting work assignments or with more input on management decisions. It’s that old hierarchy of needs thing.

    I think it is also the concern about ranking or status that causes a lot of the abuse, both physical and psychological. If the man feels that he has no control over his financial security because it is dependent upon the whim of the leader, then he might get satisfaction out of gaining control over his wives or children. Ditto a senior wife gaining control over how the house is run after losing favor as her husband’s sexual/romantic partner.

  59. You guys are also forgetting one thing that would be compelling. it woould have been for me and I am a Ph.D female scientist…. The ability to be the savior of the world by being the mother of gods – kind like how special can you be if you are the Virgin Mary??
    Young people are desperate to change effect and alter the world – how exciting it must be to know that god has selected you among the billions of apostates to be the vessel to carry forth the good in the world.

  60. First of all, being raised much like Allen, I can understand that he felt nothing was wrong with the marriage. In his soul, though, he had to feel something wasn’t right about it, especially since she resisted so much. The mindset that the young men have is hard to describe to people whio never were in a cult. I feel so greatful that I had enough skepticism bred into me to question and leave the cult. I am SO impressed with Elissa and others who stand up to the oppressive patriarcy in the FLDS. She had a much harder time leaving than me, not only because of her age, but bercause of her gender.

  61. Here is an article that is both encouraging and disgusting. The judge NAILED this POS and gave him “nine concurrent sentences of zero to five years in the Utah State Prison, with another term of up to five years to be served consecutively.”

    The disgusting part is that the guy’s wife also abused the victim:
    “After hearing the sentence, MacArthur hugged and kissed his wife, who has also been charged for allegedly having sex on numerous occasions with the same victim. Jennifer MacArthur, 35, is scheduled to stand trial in March on three similar charges.”

    Let’s hope she spends some time in prison, too.

    Life is really twisted in Utah! The new state motto is “Life Elevated”. It should be “Life FUBAR”

    Man sentenced in sex-with-minor case
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700005879/Man-sentenced-in-sex-with-minor-case.html

  62. I agree that Allen is also a victim of the FLDS mindset.

    However, Allen was very cruel to Elissa both before and after they were “married”.

    Allen is a mean and nasty person who still needs to learn that NO means NO.

  63. “…tried to groom a 15-year-old girl to become his second wife…”

    Is that a pattern, or what?

  64. oncebitten, thanks for sharing that with us. I understand exactly what you are saying. Elissa complicated thing for us by asking for forgiveness for Allen.

    Much like Rosa Parks, I don’t feel sorry for Elissa. I’m extremely proud of her. It was because of her that WSJ’s house of cards began to tumble. It took a lot of inner strength and grit but she and her sisters got it done. Had they been born and bred in the strip you wonder if it would have happened the same way? Being raised in SLC on a non-compound might have made that slightest edge of difference.

    It’s very easy to say, “Well, Allen was so young and all.” But if Elissa hadn’t run away and then wound her way through the legal system, chances are dear Allen would have done the same thing over and over to the next young bride offered to him.

    It’s proper that the ultimate finger should be pointed at WSJ, but there is something very wrong with a boy who feels it is his right to rape a young girl. There is a lack of empathy there. A lack of normal human emotion.

    As I type this somewhere in their ultra high security compounds another little boy is being given the same message. One that it’s OK to dehumanize his sister and refer to her as a ‘breeder.’ At the same time a little girl is being groomed to submit.

    The group dynamics of this cult are so abberant that they’re almost impossible to analyze. Sociopaths creating sociopaths.

    The hard core only stop when they hit the wall of reality in terms of the legal system. So Elissa, you forgive, it’s good for the soul. But there is a precious child in these pictures who’s life was turned into a living hell. Time for another one to hit the wall of reality.

    oncebitten, what do you think non-FLDS people should do about this situation?

  65. The Statute of limitations is not the only issue on the table in the Allen Steed case.

    The defense is claiming that the report made to Gary Engels is not valid because he is not an official law enforcement officer. Gary works for the Mohave County Attorney’s Office. The defense is arguing that this is not a bonafide law enforcement agency.

    So this reporting issue has to be decided first. If it is deemed that the report to the MCAO Investigator is legit, then they get to hash out the Statute of Limitations matter.

    Yep, the lawyers are trying to pull all kinds of rabbits out of their hat, as Walton would say.

    It will be a truly sad day for justice if Allen gets off on either of these supposed technicalities. A rapist would go free.

    A message needs to be sent to the FLDS that raping little girls in not going to be tolerated any longer.

  66. Miele,
    Well said!

  67. I agree that Allen is both a victim and an abuser. That’s how the abuse cycle works. As Ron said, a picture is worth a thousand words and not only is Elissa pushing back against that kiss, but it is also obvious that he is not responding to or acknowledging her refusal at all.

  68. The Mormons love to acquire old historical documents about the church and hide them away from the public.

    Yesterday, they bought some more stuff at an auction.

    I wonder if these documents will ever see the light of day?

    Mormon historical documents create auction buzz
    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14297738

  69. I see they snapped up the one written by A. S. Johnson. It would be delightful if they made it available to the public, but in this case I don’t believe they will.

    His statements to John Gibbons, the original steely-eyed missile man, are well know among civil war buffs.

  70. Betty – we can certainly handle a discussion on female power structure on this blog and it’s a welcome and interesting discussion.

    Which reminds me — when comments were opened on this forum there were rules posted and some have strayed from those guidelines. I want to remind everyone that gratuitous insults, offensive and foul language, “outing” private posters or ID guessing — are not acceptable. I will monitor more closely for a while. You all can disagree with each other or with comments on other blogs without wallowing in the dirt. Everyone is welcome to post and all viewpoints are welcome as long as they are expressed in a decent civil manner. If a particular viewpoint offends you or makes you uncomfortable — take a break from reading or participating, but no one here will be permitted to tell other posters what they must post about or refrain from posting about.

    This Open Discussion area was created for free flowing discussion and there’s no problem with off topic banter in this area — if there’s a particular subject that many are interested in discussing that is not FLDS related, just give a shout out and we’ll open a special purpose thread (like we did for the religion discussion). The idea here is to be inclusive and tolerant. Duane and Hugh were banned not for their viewpoints but for continual trolling, offensive posts and assaults on other posters. Follow the rules and keep it civil.

  71. Thanks, FLDS Texas, well said and much needed.

  72. We already know that use of antidepressant medication among women in Utah is the highest in the nation. The question is : what is the prevalence of antidepressant use among fundamentalist Mormon women ?
    I would suspect it is very high, even higher than in the general population of the state, given the status of women in that culture. I suspect that we will never know just how widely antidepressants are used in these sects, given the fact that the hierarchy resists any attempt to gather medical and / or scientific data on the marital satisfaction of women in their culture.

  73. Meile,
    I think a lot of half truths and exaggerations in the media lead to a visceral reaction to the polygamists, for instance the belief that all polygamists are united against the government. There are consenting adults living polygamy,as well as other unconventional relationships, and abuse exists everywhere. The large extended families where you have adult siblings around small children, and extremely repressed sexual urges, spells a recipe for disaster.It dosen’t help that the flds have a distrust and aloofness about the government,which further distances them from the mainstream.
    I believe the brutality of Warrens regime is the best chance for the lay followers to stop and reasess things. If he had been a more benevolent leader like Roy Johnson, (not that he was that great)their wouldn’t be the disaffection that is going on, especially in Colorado City.
    People from this background are often shocked and disgusted by the blatant sexuality and coarseness of society as portrayed in the media, and confrims for them their distrust of it.

  74. Who knows what would have happened, for instance, if Warren had pulled Winston closer instead of pushing him away. Same for the Barlows, except they were a direct threat to his power in Colorado City, and they were corrupt as hell themselves

  75. So is Merrianne’s child via virgin birth? What’s the child’s name?

  76. Miele,
    I am not familiar with the Johnson document you referenced. Can you elaborate?

  77. Life is really twisted in Utah! The new state motto is “Life Elevated”. It should be “Life FUBAR”

    This type of insanity is not limited to Utah, it happens everywhere, this case from Texas is FUBAR as well. This story sounds like the FLDS & Warren Jeffs, but it’s not.

    http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7244771

    Above in response to below.

    Life is really twisted in Utah! The new state motto is “Life Elevated”. It should be “Life FUBAR”

    Man sentenced in sex-with-minor case
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700005879/Man-sentenced-in-sex-with-minor-case.html

    Anonymous said this on January 30, 2010 at 11:43 AM

  78. Wow. I guess he was reluctant to give a DNA sample.

  79. a-texan
    sounds like a follower of Jim Harmstons doctrine

  80. Anonymous, in a short synopsis Col. Johnson felt the actions of the Mormons were an act of war,as in the Texas Revolution and the Mexican War. (Gen) John Gibbons was by his side when he stated he would obey his President, but wished he could open up up his artillery on the SL valley for just ten minutes. Gibbons later taught artillery at West Point, and his abilities were known to be almost super human.

    A. S. Johnson was a gentleman. The practice of polygamy offended his sensibilities and the violence occurring in Utah infuriated him. He died early in the Civil War commanding at Shiloh. His body was returned to Texas to be buried in our State cemetery.

    Letters written in his own hand are priceless pieces of American History.

  81. Oncebitten you posting above @ 1:36 approaches a explanation of fundamentalist thought but does nothing to legalize their illicit lifestyle. Living the life of a ‘bootlegger’ in the Roaring Twenties allowed a underworld to grow within the Chicago community that ultimately had to be confronted for it’s lawlessness and empowerment that was developed against Law & Order. The attitude of outright ownership of Priesthood men of women and children gave rise to the Victorian term ‘white slavery’.

  82. oncebitten, that’s interesting. So you believe WSJ may actually cause some Colorado City FLDS to rethink their position? I’m not familiar with who you’d define as ‘lay’ followers.

    To segue into the above post about A. S. Johnson, I think he was a definite factor in generational scripting re: Government.

    Interesting observation about the media. Did the people in Colorado City watch when the YFZ ranch women did interviews?

    In your recipe for disaster scenario, I’ve often thought about that. How half-sibs may not have the same taboo’s as full sibs.
    Do the children within the families break into sort of ‘clans?’

    Thank’s for answering, if any of my questions are out of bounds for you, just say so. I don’t want to be offensive.

  83. cajlm
    perhaps more “slaves” need to rise up against their “masters”. This is complicated by the belief of most fundamentalists that their very soul is in jeopardy by turning away. It literally took years for me to get over that irrational fear. I see faithful flds look at me in wonder, that I left 20 yrs ago and haven’t been utterly destroyed

  84. Meile, In history, revolutions are carried out by a small minority, at least at first. In the american revolution, some of the general populace took up arms only after seeing the atrocities carried out by british troops and mercenaries against family and friends. I think a parrallel can be drawn.
    By lay members, I mean the middle and lower caste families, usually those wih less money, or available daughters,or those who maintain contact with their “apostate ” family.

  85. I definetly believe the half sibling issue is much more prevalant, though the people over the years have been trained that there is no division of siblings vs half siblings, and all children are to be raised equally by all the mothers,thus raising the conflict of obeying the priesthood, or protecting your own flesh and blood. Unfortunatly, the priestcraft wins out too often

  86. I’ve never thought about that before. It must be tough to be a brother in the FLDS.

  87. Oncebitton,
    I once posted a link to one of the few academic articles I could find on the FLDS which was a measure of the strength of half to full sibling ties. Full siblings win out in measures like willingness to babysit, lend money, etc.

    I thank you for joining this site and sharing some of your past.

  88. Warren Jeffs was a leader so despotic, cruel, and sociopathic that it became evident to even the most fervent believers that the FLDS lifestyle under his leadership had become inconsistent with happiness, reason, or true spirituality. He created a reality in the twin towns which was so “ego dystonic” for most that they were inspired to leave. Those that left did not shrivel up and die for the most part, they survived and thrived, serving as an inspiration to those still remaining. Once bitten is one such survivor.
    Some good may come out of this situation for FLDS people in the long run.

  89. Once Bitten,
    The existent medical literature indicates that children of polygamous marriages perceive they are closer to the siblings born of their natural mother rather than their half siblings.
    This is documented in the limited FLDS literature, as well as in the Islamic literature. My clinical experience is limited to the care of Muslim women involved in polygamous relationships.
    I maintain an on line library of approximately 50 full length medical articles in PDF and Word Format on the effect of polygamy on women, children, and men. I cordially invite you to join the group to review the medical literature on the topic of religious polygyny.
    Apply for membership at the following link :
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TripleAP/

  90. Hopefully, given enough felony convictions the Federal Task force or Mann/RICO Act(s) are invoked to dismantle the racketeering aspects of the FLDS Church. The development of cloistered enclaves is a further negative aspect of Warrenite innovations from the ‘accomplished accomplice’.

    Oncebitten,’white slavery’ and reassignments are among the more brutal aspects of FLDS church practices. Explaining Prophet or Priesthood ownership ignores the 13th Amendment which empowers the legislature to enact appropriate legislation, again we rise to the Federal level of government.

  91. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.

    Wake up, woman!

  92. oncebitten, I’ve had people tell me that if I leave, I will become nothing, that every apostate becomes nothing in the end. Comparing with what I’ve seen, I have a cousin who left that is working for Microsoft, for instance, I ain’t buyin’ it. 😀

    having the raid happen has definitely made me question a lot of things, so I think you are on to something about the lay members questioning things. mostly the young ones, though. the ones already married and stuff are a lot rarer. but I know a lot of kids in their teens and early twenties that are leaving or who have left recently.

  93. Congratulations yehaaa6, exit the gates, and keep on driving !
    May many follow you.

  94. I actually haven’t left, but I don’t think I’ll be there much longer. after doing a little investigating, it’s just crazy. besides the fact I don’t like being told what to do…. lol

  95. If you need help, we know others who can offer assistance.
    You just have to ask. Contrary to what you may have been told,
    we are concerned.

  96. I have heard about the Shield and Refuge Ministry, and a few other foundations that help, but I’m the type that if I don’t have to, I really don’t want to. I’ve been saving up money, main thing is, finding a job. I’m taking high school online, but I don’t have a diploma.

  97. yehaaa6- hhg said it best. Thanks for joining this site and sharing. If I’m out of bounds, or make you uncomfortable, just say so. I really do want to know what things look like from ‘your side of the fence,’ so to speak.

    What was it about the ‘raid’ that started you questioning things?

  98. Good thinking, get that GED. It’s easier with a warm bed, food on your plate, and a laundry room. Trust me.

  99. Amen, Huesos.

  100. basically, well, I guess you could say the ranch in texas started the curiosity, and all the people going on “missions.” when that started happening, it just felt “off” if you know what I’m saying. all the secrecy. then a few articles came out that FLDS had purchased property in Texas and other places. at that time, there was a big push in the meetings to not read the media. that made me wonder as well. then the raid came along and blew the whole texas thing wide open, and I started reading the comments on different sites, following the news. it just didn’t feel right. when all the documents and dictations were released to the public, they got up in meeting and pretty much said you’ll lose your salvation if you read some of the things in those “sacred documents” my first reaction was pretty much along the lines of WTF. 😀

  101. actually, it’s a full diploma, from Penn Foster. I’m almost wishing I would have done the GED, though. it’s faster and easier. I may still do it, and then finish this other stuff as well.

  102. Since I’m a student of history, if someone of authority told me I would be damned if I read a document, the first thing I’d do is go find that document and read it.

  103. I’d be right there with you, Betty.

  104. Yehaaa6

    I echo others by offering a helping hand should you want/need it….
    and…
    if you know of others who want a helping hand…

    Those of following the FLDS saga do it because we hurt at the loss of all the talents of all the young people in addition to the plain just cruelty of the ever younger marriages and splitting of families… not because we are bigots and/or haters

  105. yehaaa6, are you for real?

  106. absolutely. I’m real as real, lol. and I understand what you’re saying HHG, that’s one of the things I didn’t feel was quite right here, people labeling other people haters, simply because they were doing what they felt was right. most of my friends would think I was insane if I told them I was planning on leaving, they simply don’t understand, or they don’t feel it’s the best thing for them, and I respect that.

    one other thing that happened that made me start to wonder, is there was a saying in meeting, “God and the Prophet always and only do right” it felt strange to me.

  107. Ok yehaaa, ‘splain to me the concept of FLDS going on missions, please?

  108. a “mission”, at least the kind I’m talking about is where people would be called to go work or live at places like YFZ, and they’re instructed to keep it a total secret from everyone else, including their own family.

  109. yehaaa6, thank you. I’m trying to imagine if I were in your place and read the dictations – what I would think. I guess WTF would sum it up.

    Actually WTF sums up what I thought when I first saw the FLDS on TV. I’d never heard of such a thing. I guess we surprised each other.

  110. I just have to ask one more question. You’re online, so have you read the Plural Life by B. Adams? What’s your opinion?

  111. I’ve read a little of it, I dunno, I think she does a decent job of telling a point of view that’s there. I guess you could say I feel neutral toward her blog. I don’t really keep up with it though.

  112. Good enough. Thanks, yehaaa6

  113. yehaaa6 – good luck and please holler if you need anything at all. there are many who are willing to help you get a start in the world.

  114. Glad to see ya here yehaaa6–I’ve been gone all day..I’m just catching up.

  115. “If you need help, we know others who can offer assistance.
    You just have to ask. Contrary to what you may have been told,
    we are concerned.”

    My resources are extremely limited but I’ll help too. So if you know of anyone who needs help, and can’t find better resources, feel free to contact me. My email is available at my blogsite.

  116. thanks people, I really appreciate knowing that there are people willing to help. if I need anything, I’ll be sure to let you know. once again, I really appreciate it.

  117. nice to meet you yehaaa6 🙂

  118. yehaaab have you read

    Training Given by President Warren S. Jeffs
    On the Places of Refuge to a Group of Men?

  119. I haven’t yet, I’m reading the Lost Boys proposition for the UEP cases right now, which I believe has that attached to it. it’s very interesting, to say the least.

  120. yehaaa6:
    What would happen to you if someone would see you writing on this blog?
    Also, how old are you? Do you have family on the outside you could go for help? I hope so, it would be very difficult for you to get used to the ‘outside world’. But help is out there, especially if you are yearning to study and learn more.

  121. If someone saw me writing here, and knew who I am, I’d get in some deep trouble. might possibly get kicked out.

    I’m 21, and I have an uncle and his family living outside. I’ve also got other friends who may be able to help. as far as the outside being difficult, I’d like to think I’m adaptable and flexible enough to figure it out fairly quickly.

    I have been living in and out of the “crick” for a while now. I work in construction, usually away from home a month or so at a time. while I know it’s a far cry from living by onesself, I think once I found a job, I’d be fine.

  122. yehaab,

    It starts on page 63 of that document.

  123. Yehaaab,

    C-M might of had good intentions, but the least info you give the safer you will be.

  124. yeaaaab, some of us have connections to help you, remember that. when and if you get ready to leave.

  125. yehaaa6,
    Good for you and your WTF moment.

    You won’t lose your salvation if you leave, but you might find your sanity. I don’t mean that disrespectfully.

    You have had the light go off in your head with your WTF moment and you are seeing the truth about the secrecy your group has kept for 6 years about the Texas property.

    Please, read Warren’s dictations and see what has transpired over the recent past. You WON’T go to Hell for reading them.

    Then, as Dr. Susan said – exit that gate. And don’t look back. You seem very bright with goals and ambitions. You will succeed. Just, one way or the other get that high school GED or diploma/degree. It is SO important and will open up many more opportunities for you.

  126. yeah, I’ll keep that in mind. and it’s a 6 by the way, yehaaa6 😉

  127. yeehaa
    I will help you, if I can also

  128. yehaaah

    the_hope_org@yahoo.com

    This organization is a great source of help to those leaving the FLDS and they are located close to you.

    The HOPE Organization
    115 North 300 West, Building B Suite 101
    Washington, UT 84780

    For more information, please contact us at:
    (435) 627-9582

    website: http://thehopeorg.org/

    They have a great network that can help you with every day life in confidence.

  129. Sorry yehaaa6
    Need to get the stronger glasses.

  130. Oh, my Yehaaa6
    I am sorry too, it think I started the typo.

  131. How would your parents feel about you “leaving?”

  132. it’s… hard to say at this point. I imagine they’ll respect my wishes, but will do all in their power to convince me to stay. I don’t expect it to be easy, or enjoyable. I really don’t want to do that to them, but I feel it’s about time I did something for myself, and not just for others. They really don’t know how serious I am about this yet, though. probably gonna keep it that way until I go.

  133. http://www.hotm.tv/

    catwhisperer here is another great website.

    Shawn is celebrating his 200th show. He was a Mormon Bishop.

  134. yehaaa6, if you don’t mind me asking, is the contention that schooling within the FLDS if often inadaquate and haphazard true? Do you have any ideas as to the actual completion rates of high school and higher education? Is it a goal for the average member/child or is it discouraged.

    I’m only curious because we have a lot of people NOT connected with the FLDS who try to claim a high standard of education and higher education so I’d love to get an impression from someone within the FLDS too.

  135. well, when we were still going to public schools, then pretty much everybody went completely through high school. once the children were pulled from public schools…. a lot of the boys stopped going past 8th grade, partly because only a few of the “priesthood” schools had a high school program, partly because they were going to work. then they broke those up, because of the boy/girl socializing “problems” among other things, and went to home-schooling. Education is encouraged, but only if it’s the “right” things, and for the “right” purposes. take that as you will, lol.

    Personally, I went to the public school until 5th grade, and in “priesthood” school until 10th. further than a lot of the boys around here.

    I’d say that the standard of education is probably average, but that’s just my non-expert opinion, without anything to back it up :D.

  136. yehaaa6, There are some excellent organisations out there willing to help people get on their feet when they leave. There may even be some educational scholarships available. Check out Holding out Help (the link is in the blogroll on this page) This organisation does not require conversion to any religion as the price of help! Good luck!

  137. yehaaa

    Please let me extend best wishes to you. I recognize the challenge in your life and the crossroad you face.

    I am thankful you have family on the outside and if you make the transition, that could help you in your confidence, as well as the others who have left.

    Say, do you know if Ross Chatwin is still in the Creek? I have admired him for standing up to Warren long before that was even thought of by others.

  138. Thank you, Yehaaa6, for answering my question. I always love to get as many viewpoints as possible. Someday you’ll have to share with us what the “right” learning is. 😉

    Another question, if you don’t mind. Are your parents helping you with your online course or are you paying for it yourself. I know they can be expensive.

  139. Check out Holding out Help (the link is in the blogroll on this page)This organisation does not require conversion to any religion as the price of help! Good luck!

    FreeBird said this on January 31, 2010 at 12:13 AM

    FreeBird,
    It is my understanding that these help groups don’t “require conversion to any religion as the price of help!”.

    Except for the Shield and Refuge Ministry, the other organizations are secular. Shield and Refuge is what it says it is – a ministry. The other groups are not ministries; they are organizations just helping people leaving polygamy get on their feet.

    The only time I have heard of a requirement of “conversion to any religion as the price of help!” was involving the Mormon church. There have been people who have left various polygamous groups and gone to the LDS church seeking help and been told they would have to join the LDS church to qualify for help.

  140. Even Sheild and Refuge isn’t likely to “require” conversion; they’ll just try to convert you. I don’t know from experience but I’ll bet that they help without any “requirements” as to religious beliefs.

  141. Yeehaa6:
    I apologize, did not want to get you in trouble by answering my questions. Just am glad you are a bit older. That will help, a lot !
    Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

  142. yehaaa6 – if you need help, feel free to email me at (EDITED). i’ll do all in my power to get you connected with those who can best help you succeed. also as mentioned above, the hope organization is wonderful and located in washington, utah. if you get to them, they know how to get in touch with me.

  143. Yehaaa: I’m 21, and I have an uncle and his family living outside. I’ve also got other friends who may be able to help. as far as the outside being difficult, I’d like to think I’m adaptable and flexible enough to figure it out fairly quickly.

    I have been living in and out of the “crick” for a while now. I work in construction, usually away from home a month or so at a time. while I know it’s a far cry from living by onesself, I think once I found a job, I’d be fine.
    …………………………….

    In some ways, especially in this down economy, your situation is not that much different from other people your age. It IS hard to find a job these days, it is a struggle to be on your own.

    I have two children who just graduated from college, and both of them had to send out lots of resumes and do a lot of footwork to get good jobs. My son ended up moving away because he couldn’t find what he wanted near by. My daughter has been waiting on tables since high school just because the money is good – she only just found a “real” job.

    Even in these tough times, people all over the world emmigrate to our country, because it is true – if you want an education, you can get one. If you want a career, you can have one.

    What makes me sad about the children of the FLDS, especially the girls, is they don’t have parents or leaders telling them they are individuals with talents and strengths.

    You don’t belong to any other human on this earth, you belong to yourself.

    Oh, and by the way I believe that you can have a direct relationship with Christ – you don’t need to go through or get permission from any prophet or priest.

  144. thanks everybody for the encouragement. I really appreciate it 🙂

    Anon and off again: as far as I know he still lives there, but I don’t really keep up with who lives where at the crick, as I’m out working most of the time.

    Rebeckah: I paid for it myself, my father is quite liberal in the sense that he lets me keep my paychecks, he feels it’s a good thing, to help learn how to manage money and be responsible for it. I help with some of the bills at home, and manage my own finances.

    C-M: no worries. if I was truly worried about getting found out, I wouldn’t be posting here. right now I’m just trying to find out what’s really going on, because I know they aren’t telling me the whole story.

    ProudTexan: thank you very much. I will keep that in mind, and add your email to my address book. 🙂

  145. I know people with job skills who are having trouble finding a job in Virginia. My son in law who is a general contractor is only working his crews about half a week, cause he doesn’t have enough work to keep them busy, plus the normal winter weather issues.

  146. yeah, in construction it’s very slow right now. once we finish this job we’re on in a couple months, I don’t know if there’ll be anything else to do for a while. one aspect of the slow construction issue is that there’s mostly commercial and very little residential work, which results in virtually no kids under 16 working out on jobs, which is good.

  147. “Rebeckah: I paid for it myself, my father is quite liberal in the sense that he lets me keep my paychecks, he feels it’s a good thing, to help learn how to manage money and be responsible for it. I help with some of the bills at home, and manage my own finances.”

    That is so awesome. It sounds like your mother and father are quite a blessing, particularly given the general atmosphere that seems to be in the FLDS right now. I can’t tell you how happy I am for you that your parents are as supportive as they are. 🙂

  148. Judge Joe Griffin terminates parental rights of six members of Tony Alamo Church in Arkansas

    http://www.examiner.com/x-14537-Albany-CPS-and-Family-Court-Examiner~y2010m1d30-Judge-Joe-Griffin-terminates-parental-rights-of-six-members-of-Tony-Alamo-Church-in-Arkansas

  149. The Tony Alamo supporters are whacked out even worse than the Warren Jeffs supporters.

    Did you know the United States is now controlled by the Vatican? News to me!

  150. “Christian” polygynists, remember the Tony Alamo !

  151. Talk about denial. They are still claiming that the conviction does not mean that he actually had sex with underaged girls, even though THOSE GIRLS TESTIFIED! So all of you who have run into the FLDS supporters going on about how the girls can’t be victims cause they did not testify, realize that cult followers would still be making excuses even if they do testify. Also witness how they do character assassination against those women who do testify.

  152. Also witness how they do character assassination against those women who do testify.

    Betty said this on January 31, 2010 at 3:07 PM

    Yes, the old “nuts and sluts” defense….

  153. Talk about denial.

    Well, when you actually believe the BS you’re spouting then technically you’re not in denial.

    I’m still waiting for a rash of exploding heads from cognitive dissonance.

  154. Im not sure anyone believes what they are spouting, they just hate government in all forms, along with laws set up to protect everyone!

  155. Only in Utah!

    Utahns Make Effort to Get Accurate Count in Census 2010

    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-utahns-make-effort-to-get-accurate-count,0,3207148.story

  156. HAHA anon… I wish them luck! LOL

  157. Ain’t nobody here but us chickens!

  158. Inside Polygamy: Life In Bountiful
    Airs Feb. 10 9PM Eastern Time

    Its a real-life Big Love. Winston Blackmore is the family patriarch and leader of a fundamentalist Mormon polygamist community in Bountiful, British Columbia, that includes his 20-some wives and more than 100 children. Winston, like all who practice the principle, believes that plural marriage and siring dozens of children will help guarantee his entrance into the highest of Heavens. For the first time ever, he is giving a TV crew access to his family, including an exclusive invitation to film his sons wedding.

    As we chronicle the loves and lives of the Blackmore clan, we explore the major historic events and personalities that have led to modern-day Mormon fundamentalism. The darker side of some polygamous clans is also explored child abuse, underage marriage, oppression of women and welfare fraud.
    Read more: http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/inside/4292/Overview#ixzz0eEEfSkGg

  159. Maybe Nat Geo should interview Jane Blackmore, a midwife and Winston’s first wife, who left him. When asked if she was ever in love with Winston, she responded “I’m not sure I know what love is.”
    This is an attempt to garner sympathy before the Canadian court case on the legality of polygamy.

  160. I am terribly disappointed with NG and now wonder how slanted their other views of ethnic and cultural groups are.

  161. 51st Judicial District (Schl. Co. Case)
    3028 Schl. Co. In The Interest of Jessop, Children Motion to Sign Order for C/S N.Malonis/A.Hennington
    When: Thu Feb 18 2pm – 5pm Central Time
    Where: Courtroom C – Judge Walther

    Does anyone know what this is about?

  162. Could it be Carolyn isn’t getting her promised support checks??? Maybe she is putting a lien on the ranch….
    There are so many pending court actions, it’s hard to keep them all straight.

  163. Quite a PR machine these FLDS have.
    I will bet that Merrill agreed to the settlement, but is not paying.

  164. yehaa6–do you have friends that have left the flds? If so–do you get to see them?

    How are they doing?

  165. I have a few friends who have left, but I’ve never visited any after they left. We keep in touch through facebook (which btw, they denounced in meetings, specifically, so this isn’t the only thing I’m doing on the internet that could get me in trouble) and I know a few of their cellphone numbers. as far as I can tell, they seem to be doing well, just figuring things out like anyone else, I guess.

    technically, a person is not supposed to have any contact with apostates, or at least not supposed to seek it out. if you run in to someone at wal-mart or something, you can be courteous, but you’re not supposed to socialize.

  166. That just seems so sad to me yehaaa6!! Just because you are no longer part of the group,, doesn’t mean you are’nt still blood or family, Thats the part that gets to me. If one of my children left home, I would do whatever I could do to let them know, they were always welcome in my house. I would still be their mother.

  167. I have never understood trading your child for a Prophet!

  168. Yehaa6, I have a question about your comment:

    “technically, a person is not supposed to have any contact with apostates, or at least not supposed to seek it out” .

    One of the things that has intrigued me, as long as I have been following the public discussion about this story, is that groups of people from the FLDS will tell exactly the opposite story. Some people say just what you said above. Others say things like, ‘the apostates are lying, anyone can leave any time, and we all stay in touch’. Usually, they go on to say things like ‘you gentiles don’t understand what’s happening in the FLDS community because you talk to lying apostates all the time.’

    Can you bring some light to this discrepancy? Thanks.

  169. some people may have been instructed to tell the media that they are allowed to talk to apostates, and I guess no one is really stopping you, per se, but still, the general instruction that I’ve heard all my life is that you’re supposed to leave them alone, and not initiate contact. It is true that anyone can leave anytime, I mean, no one is forcing you to be there, physically. it’s just that you leave, and people won’t talk to you. if you do call someone, they might talk to you, or they might ignore you, depends on the person. As far as apostates lying, there’s kind of some unofficial classifications for apostates, the “bitter” apostates, those who have brought legal charges against the church, etc. and the other apostates, those that just kind of drifted away. you probably won’t get in trouble as readily if you talk to the “non-bitter” ones compared to the “bitter” ones, if you can see what I’m saying.

  170. so talking to rebecca musser and carolyn jessop could get you in big trouble but talking to the everyday run of the mill apostate would be allowed.

  171. you say no one is forcing you to stay, but if say an 18 year old girl with a child wanted to leave, would she be able to take her children with her, especially if she’s one of the ones at the YFZ?

  172. pretty much, yes. allowed, but discouraged.

    that…. I don’t know, lol. I have never been to YFZ, and the people there are all a lot more hardcore righteous than I am. I… really can’t say.

  173. thanks for the info yehaaa6. it really helps separate the facts from the fiction that’s out there.

    good luck on your future plans.

  174. yehaaa

    That makes perfect sense in your worldview, but consider Carolyn with 8 kids, if she wanted to leave with her chldren then she had to escape.

    Even for young women who arent married its tough, no skills, no support perhaps known and perhaps no family, its really tough. But things are changing, take heart.

  175. The Jessop hearing on February 18th is because Merril has not paid Carolyn one penny in child support since it was court ordered last September.

    What a bum he is!

    It should be a lively hearing. I highly doubt Judge Walther will have much patience with a deadbeat dad who was ordered to pay child support and hasn’t for the past 4 months.

    I hope Natalie Malonis goes for the throat!

  176. Maybe some of it depends on the last name you carry also? Since Warren was so fanatical about pure gene blood, I would be willing to bet, if you are a jessop or jeffs by blood or marriage, they would make it harder for you to leave if your a woman. And then of course there is the status of the family. Some families didn’t have the same status as Jeffs Jessops and at one time Barlows. Women with the blood line of Mackerts, Cookes, Holm, Blackmore, Stubbs, didnt carry the same status as those three others.

  177. I hope Judge Walther throws him in jail for contempt of court, giving him a preview of what he can expect after his trial.

  178. Hope Carolyn gets the deed to the YFZ Ranch.

  179. Proud Texan

    Yeah, actually, why not go ahead and revoke bail.

    What the hell, he has shown he has no intent on following the law anyway.

  180. Here Here!
    Natalie Malonis, go for his throat !
    What a deadbeat dad this guy is !
    Given his advanced age, I think Carolyn should look towards garnishing the profits of the YFZ Ranch. She would stand to benefit a lot more by that approach.

  181. So if Carolyn gets the deed to the YFZ, can she join the new church and convert the YFZ Ranch into the WTF Ranch? It already has an impressive temple.

  182. Yehaa

    I haven’t followed your dialog with others carefully; just glanced over it. You mentioned secrecy. It was the insane secrecy over a silly rock cutting saw that was the last straw for me.

    Don’t expect when you come out in the open to be able to argue on instinct alone. And scripture and history is difficult to hold against those that are 100X the scriptorians that I was, but I went through it, and hopefully, left a few doubts in other’s minds. Thas was the most difficult part for me. You need to be just as prepared as if you were taking a college exam. Winston’s share the light blog can help get you ready. And doctrine like “It is against the laws of the priesthood to marry your father’s wife”. Maybe contact Ivan Nielsen and see if he can give you evidence of the sermons being altered. Some of those in Centennial may also have evidence here.

  183. Also at http://www.sharethelight.ca, read all the North Star Chronicles; not just the blog.

  184. Anonymous 9:30 AM :
    A temple conversion was exactly what I had in mind.

  185. Cement,
    It is also a violation of Biblical Law (First Five Books of Moses) for a man to marry his father’s wife.

  186. Yehaaa6

    Do any of your friends/family know about Warren’s declaring that God has abandoned all of the members of the creek not yet called on mission?
    Others here will be able to help you find the precise pages of his dictations in which he calls down the wrath of the Lord on the faint hearted of the FLDS (that is all not called to YFZ)

  187. Cement, it’s weird that the link you shared (http://www.sharethelight.ca) still says that Winston Blackmore won’t be updating any more (on his lawyer’s advice) but he IS posting new things here:
    http://sharethelight.ca/b2/

    I wonder if the lawyer’s advice has changed now that Blackmore is planning to sue the Canadian government.

  188. The Jessop hearing on February 18th is because Merril has not paid Carolyn one penny in child support since it was court ordered last September.

    ……………..

    Well well well .. . . according to Alin, Merrill was paying her with his Social Security money.

    Can we spell g a r n i s h ?

  189. and Leviticus 18 is not just about gays, it covers most forms of incest including marrying your wife’s sister, your step daughter and your father’s wife.

  190. Well well well .. . . according to Alin, Merrill was paying her with his Social Security money.

    Can we spell g a r n i s h ?
    ============================================
    Heh! Funny my name was mentioned. I never said his ss checks was paying the total amount due. I believe about 50 percent of the check is garnished and no way in hell is Merril’s ss checks about $4,000 per month.

  191. Carolyn has recieved not ONE DIME alinusara! Nothing, NADA!

  192. i don’t think the ss can be garnished until the order is in place. if i am reading the title of the hearing right, an order wasn’t ever entered. the title of the hearing is “motion to sign order”

  193. yeehaaa
    just wondering, did you grow up in the crick, or did your family move down in the mass exodus back in 2001?
    also, is there any evidence that Wendell Nielsen, Lyle, or others are starting to have people look more to them than Warren?

  194. There reason there was no order to sign, was because Merrill Jessop agreed willinginly to pay the child support in court in front of the Judge.
    thing is, He NEVER paid, so now they have to go back to court to have the judge sign the order to garnish

  195. I was reading Winston’s blog and he says something interesting: nowhere is it written that a man MUST have at least three wives to get into the celestial kingdom – there is no requirement for a minimum number of wives.

    It is revealing to hear evidence against Warren presented by another Fundamentalist Mormon – gentiles are not the only ones who consider him to be cruel and abusive.

  196. But then, again, many consider Winston to be cruel and abusive, so YMMV.

  197. I don’t view Winston Blackmore as any bright beacon of truth. He has close to 100 children, and I simply don’t see how a man can give quality time or attention to that number of children. Does he even know all their names ?
    In short, he is populating his celestial kingdom planet to ensure his exaltation, and it is all about him, or in the vernacular…
    (blank) you, and here’s to me…

  198. I’m not a supporter of Winston Blackmore, but I do think it was interesting to hear a Fundamentalist say that the “3 wife minimum” is not backed by any scriptures, Mormon or otherwise.

    Does anybody know who/where this came from . . . honestly, never seen a religion where so much is “make it up as you go along!”

  199. Anon E Mouse :
    …or a religion whose tenets directly contradict both the Old and New Testament which they purport to hold sacred.

  200. A bit off topic, Oprah on Tuesday (02-02-10) will be interviewing children of polygamist Brain David Mitchell & Wanda Barzee. Barzee took plea deal like Emack & Mitchell is still awaiting trial, like Jeffs lawyers, Mitchell’s lawyers have delayed trial for years with endless hearings and appeals.

    http://www.oprah.com/index.html

    Hope Oprah dosen’t give it the whitewash treatment like she did the FLDS at YFZ.

    On subject of child support for Carolyn Jessop, I agree Malonis should go for the throat, a contempt of court would violate his (Merril the wife beater) bail, and off the Sheriff Doran’s graybar hotel.

  201. As far as Im concerned Winston Blackmore is like the pot calling the kettle black. He is right, no where does it say a man is “required to have 3 wives”, Yet he lived by that same code his whole life and still is.

  202. Bishop F. Merril Jeffs is a unquestioned and revered leader within the FLDS Church congregation. In a fundamentalist sect that has become nationally infamous for it’s espoused wedlocks of ‘Child Brides’, ‘Lost Boys’ and mismanagement of the UEPTrust. Does anyone see something amiss with this bishop holding a high ranking position and no resignation, public statement or church reprisal has been enacted?

    If lying ‘apostates’ aren’t to be believed, court appointed professionals or law enforcement officers. Who’s the rightful and trustworthy party to be believed?

  203. yehaaa6, question, since you come from a FLDS background, what is your opinion of the other non polygamist Mormon churches such as “The Community of Christ” & “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”?

    Their websites: LDS: http://www.mormon.org http://www.lds.org

    Community of Christ: http://www.cofchrist.org/

    And since Baptist Church buses were used to transport FLDS women & children, will throw them in for your opinion as well.

    Southern Baptist Church: http://www.sbc.net/default.asp

  204. Good question cajim!

  205. DD1, even when you have an agreement in open court, there’s still an order entered, usually signed off on by both parties and their attorneys. this usually happens a couple of weeks after the hearing itself. that said, since there was an agreement in open court, he’s responsible for the support and in contempt of court just as if the order was on file as far as i know.

    revocation of his bail would be a starting point. i’d also dig into finances more and get at the deep pockets of the matter, the flds themselves.

  206. Good Idea!!

  207. Hehe! The flds is not responsible for his child support. I don’t know the dollars and cents but he probably is a bit behind on his child support. I dunno what it gets up to before they declare contempt of court.

  208. HeHe, well to date, there hasnt been one penny of child support. And since Flds is run like a corporation and everyone gives every dime to the corporation then, they can cough up what the child support is for 7 children.

  209. merrill jessop has a disabled child with carolyn, and you set there and laugh about the fact, the child isn’t getting child support alinusara

  210. He owes it, he will pay it, or he can set his butt in jail!

  211. Alin: Hehe! The flds is not responsible for his child support.

    ……………………….

    If funds are mixed in any way, yes they are – in the same way an employer must pay garnished wages directly to a creditor.

    Furthermore, if the FLDS or any of its members, including any of Merrill’s other wives, have attempted to hide financial resources on his behalf, they are guilty of fraud.

    The “answer them nothing” policy is beyond stupid. By not volunteering documents and money, they just open themselves up to court orders. Merrill has money somewhere, and he puts the whole organization in jeopardy if he uses them to hide it.

  212. i think at one time at least merril was something high up at the yfz, but warren’s dictations order him to remove his name from all kinds of stuff. you can bet your sweet bippy that the information in the dictations can be used against him to collect what is owed whether it is now owned by another flds person or not.

  213. Do any of your friends/family know about Warren’s declaring that God has abandoned all of the members of the creek not yet called on mission?
    Others here will be able to help you find the precise pages of his dictations in which he calls down the wrath of the Lord on the faint hearted of the FLDS (that is all not called to YFZ)
    ———–
    actually, in meeting they’ve stood up and said that “we are still the lord’s people, he has not forsaken you, as long as you repent” so, no. pretty much, if there’s still people willing to be “worthy” then they will be saved, I guess. but the time of preparation is short.

    just wondering, did you grow up in the crick, or did your family move down in the mass exodus back in 2001?
    also, is there any evidence that Wendell Nielsen, Lyle, or others are starting to have people look more to them than Warren?
    ———
    to the first, born and raised cricker :). to the second, absolutely not. Warren is the prophet, and he is suffering for our sins. because of our lack of faith, he is still in prison.

    as for the 3 wives thing, I had never heard anything about it until I started reading things on the internet. it was taught that you must have more than one wife to go to the highest degree of glory, but I never heard anything about a 3 wife minimum.

  214. al10 the judge can declare contempt of court at anytime. as for how high it has to be, there isn’t a low or a high. greg abbott throws them in jail to teach them not to mess with texas mothers and children and i’m sure he’d do the same for a utah mom with 7 kids, one of them disabled.

  215. thanks yehaaa6 – go figure, you can get to the highest level with just 2 wives. warren forgot to remind people of that when he kept sticking them with more and more wives and underage one at that.

    if its not too personal, do you have any sisters, and if so, what age were they when the married?

  216. Warren pretends to be Jesus? No surprise there.

  217. i wonder if he still thinks rulon didn’t really die.

  218. In Uncle Rulon’s sermons, he mentions they had to quickly get him three wives so he could be ordained an apostle, but I am not aware of this being necessary for the general members.

  219. I’ve mentioned this before, but when I made my mind to leave, it is very difficult to not be a push over and hold your ground against someone who can take a Bible and name chapter and verse and quote all over the place. How can a 12 year old fight against this on “something feels wrong”, and then have them say “they have their choice”?

  220. Oh no, Kinky Friedman running for elected office again, this time as agricultural somethingorother. “No cow left behind”

  221. i love kinky.

  222. Yehaaa6 said,
    … it just didn’t feel right. when all the documents and dictations were released to the public, they got up in meeting and pretty much said you’ll lose your salvation if you read some of the things in those “sacred documents” my first reaction was pretty much along the lines of WTF

    ============================
    The beginning of my “apostacy”, not the last straw, was when I was reading Uncle Roy’s sermons to my family, and he stated that we seek all truth, even among the wicked, and that we had the duty to search it out. Somehow, the altered sermons failed to purge that one (but it might be missing in the next revision because of my “apostacy”). Anyway, it was on page 117, but I forget the volume. I felt I had a right to see things from Winston’s view, and Centennial’s view after reading that.

  223. he’s running for ag commissioner.

  224. merrill jessop has a disabled child with carolyn, and you set there and laugh about the fact, the child isn’t getting child support alinusara
    ===========================================================
    I’m saying he’s more than likely paying some, just a possibility he’s not paying the full amount due. If you are worried about that child you are more than free to send Carolyn some money.

  225. cement,

    Too funny!

    And indeed, for me, when I feel it isnt right, I just dont even try to argue it. If someone sold themselves a bill of goods and it stinks to me, it still stinks to me even if they like to roll around in it.

    My reponse to them is “knock yourself out”.

  226. Stamp, when you are mentally trapped, you don’t know what you will do. Looking back, I have to realize it stunk, but needed an internal source of scripture to begin looking out. I see a lot of people very confidentally stating how they would say “go to hell with your nonsense”, but you never know how you would have reacted if you were born in that circumstance. As Dale Carnegie said (Am I remembering right?) “The only reason you aren’t a rattlesnake is because your parents weren’t a rattlesnake”.

  227. al10 – you are missing the point that merril hasn’t paid a dime of the money he agreed to pay carolyn, not even his social security check has gone to her. i’m thinking he’s upwards of $40,000 behind to her counting current support and the back support that was agareed to. i think 40,000 is a big enough chunk to get a few days in the slammer.

  228. Cement

    True that, and I realize the factor that generational membership has had. If its all you knew since holding a bottle its loads tougher. Stockholm Syndrome to the max.

  229. ron – you might get the cheap copy of whatever it was that you wanted yet, raymond’s attorney’s filed a notice of appeal in schleicher county on friday.

  230. Dontcha know I’m dying to know what bozo came up with.

  231. Cement,
    would you feel comfortable referring yehaaa to a mainstream LDS website for doctrinal issues ?
    If not, why not ?
    just curious. Thanks

  232. Are the pictures of the ‘birthing center’ available? I believe they were attachments in Raymond’s trial, weren’t they?

    I’d like to see those.

  233. When we “know why the mainstream Mormon Church is in error” and heard it all our lives, he would get nowhere in an argument along those lines.

  234. Excellent point. Trying to rebuke FLDS actions with ANY religion would be an excersise in frustration. Why even attempt to go there.

    People become convinced they are right, you can only say why it isnt working for you.

    And point to the fact their faith must be weak because Warren is still in the CelloSteel Kingdom.

  235. all the girls/women don’t use the birthing center at the ranch. warren’s daughter lenora, one of raymond’s underaged wives, had her son at shannon medical center

  236. Well sure, they had to be at least 18 to go for real medical assistance.

  237. Or 17, as in Lenore’s case.

  238. A Texan, I missed your question earlier, but it’s kinda already been addressed, with the mainstream Mormon thing. As for myself, it’s too much like what I’m trying to get away from, so why would I do that to myself, lol.

    kinda the same for the Baptists, I respect people’s decision to believe how they want, and there’s arrogant pricks who think they’re better than you anywhere you go, so I try to take people on an individual basis. for now, I think that I’ve had more than enough organized religion for 21 years, thanks 😀

  239. Cement,
    I would imagine that you might agree with mainstream LDS teaching on most issues? What percentage of mainstream LDS teachings do you think you agree with ? What is your spiritual practice at this time ?

  240. My religion is this: The one man rule is correct doctrine. I am the one and only that has the right to rule in my life, and others are the one and only that have the right to rule in their life.

    Other than that, I don’t expose my views too openly, except to argue sometimes 🙂

  241. However, I wouldn’t go so far as to say that I always and only do right in my life.

  242. proudtexan, I have sisters, but none of them are married. I’m the oldest child of the family, so they’re all under 21, but a couple are over 18. not every girl over 18 is married off right away.

  243. I feel that no one owns a monopoly on right and wrong, and that we are all part of one big system of checks and balances. Countries and states are a good thing. Two political parties in gridlock is a good thing. Life is about realizing that others, including “apostates” have a valid point. Mormons provide a check for Christians, and vice versa. Athiests provide a balance against religious extremism, but religion needs to tell the athiests that there is a spiritual side to life.

  244. Wintson Blackmore is just another slick mormon pervert dragging family and friends down a path of destruction.

  245. I don’t want to start a religious contention; there was a thread for that a while back, but I don’t accept the Bible as unerrant and perfect. In all our thousands of radio antennas trying to contact extra-terrestrial life, no one has established a communication link to God. The Bible has existed before Faraday or Maxwell told us a few things about radio waves.

  246. Cement,
    OK, I appreciate your balanced approach to spirituality. I am just approaching your statements as an ex – Catholic, now Protestant.
    I would estimate that about 80% of Protestant doctrine is similar to Catholic doctrine. I have read the Book of Mormon, although that was many years ago, so I have some understanding of your faith.
    I just wanted to get an opinion regarding what percentage roughly of fundamentalist Mormon teaching is similar to mainline LDS teaching.

  247. ….and I don’t want to start a religious contention either….
    I will say that Winston Blackmore is not a good source to send anyone to for any kind of spiritual guidance.
    Jesus said by their fruits you would know His followers.
    Anyone who has 100 kids is more interested in his own ego, self concept, or “exaltation” than he is interested in the welfare of his children.
    In short, the “fruit” of selfishness is NOT a manifestation of
    Christ, and Winston is a poor role model for spiritual behavior.

  248. Well said, CW.

  249. Alinusara10 accept the fact that Merril Jessop has NOT paid any child support for his 8 children he created with wife number 4, Carolyn Jessop.

    He hasn’t paid a PORTION of what he agreed 4 months ago in court to pay. He has paid NOTHING of what he agreed 4 months ago in court to pay.

    And since it is a new month, lets start it off right.

    Alinusara10 FU,
    Love Fred

  250. it’s good to know that all girls aren’t married off underage or even as soon as they turn 18.

  251. Don’t worry. He was a necessary step in me getting out, but I have gotten out, all the way. It’s not anything he did to offend me, I just started to realize that the whole thing had geology, archaeology, DNA, and other stuff against it. I was able to justify all that, until finding that the facsimiles in the Pearl of Great Price had part of a Jackel head missing, and he put in a human head that sticks out like a sore thumb, and a sword in another missing area that also looks out of place. That was the last straw; I had ways of justifying all this other stuff, but when I realized that Joseph didn’t have the honesty to tell the people “this is missing”, that was it. He didn’t even tell them “I filled in the missing parts by revelation”.

  252. Cement,
    I respect you for that.
    I think it best for someone like you with such as rational approach to spirituality to mentor this young man.
    Forget about Winston.
    and Fred, welcome back !

  253. Sociopaths always have feckless ranting enablers dragged into their schemes.

    FRED

  254. Miele you’re talking over my head. Is that a compliment or an insult?

    Fred

  255. freckless ranting enablers drag

    works for me FRED!!!

  256. Fred,
    We all like you here.
    No worries.
    Please come to visit more often.

  257. not miele, but i’d take it as a complement. you put al10 in his place nicely and started the new month off right with a big FU.

  258. Compliment. You’re a name – Fred The other is an acronym.

  259. Bingo PT

  260. Cement your reference to discrepancies in the Pearl of Great Price has always fascinated me on the level of the study of Egypt and the dawning of Egyptology in 1799 when Napoleon with over 150+ scientists in his army began the first formal study of ancient Egypt and the Rosetta Stone was found, then in 1822 control of Egypt fell into Britains control.

    When Joseph Smith made his claims/revelations on the papyrus writings no one could yet read hieroglyphics but science claims to have the ability now which leaves the disputed stories.

  261. DUH, I get it now. It has been a looooong day.

    Fred

  262. So the Pearl of Great Price was on papyrus, but the Book of Mormon was on Golden Plates ? I didn’t know that. I haven’t yet read the Pearl of Great Price, I will have to get around to that.

  263. Anyone who would post that someone else should pay Carolyn’s child support except Merill Jessop is a big ‘ol FRED.

    Fred has it right.

  264. just finished reading the lost boys recommendation on the UEP and all the exhibits, very, very interesting. that video of him saying he was not the prophet, never ever got to the people. I guess it was just a test(tm). I kinda remember when some people had discovered it, they wouldn’t believe it. said it was fabricated, or that he was drugged. very interesting. I hadn’t heard where he actually condemned the place of Short Creek either. although that’s kinda what a lot of people figured, but we were told there would be a place in Zion for us if we would repent. pretty crazy.

  265. sure there’ll be a place in zion as long as you are ponying up your grand a month to pay the legal fees incurred by jeffs and his chosen followers.

  266. oops, changed to safari browser and forgot to add my name, the above anonymous at 9:40 is me.

  267. yeah, not only that, but you have to swear complete loyalty to whatever you’re told to do, even if it goes against your better judgement. “the Lord works in mysterious ways” “God and the Prophet always and only do right” …. so on and so forth.

  268. Here’s a link for several great documentaries; they tell all the factual, archiological, historical and DNA problems with the Book of Mormon and he other mormon books. Just scroll down the page and there are about 6 great documentaries to watch online for free.

    http://mormonchallenge.com/liftingtheveil.html

  269. I had the opportunity to review one of the documentaries, and I thought it was very well produced, Jon Dana

  270. Believe it or not, I think Joseph has some valid objections to mainstream Christianity, even though I am no longer Mormon of any species.

  271. I have difficulty accepting anything Joseph Smith said as being of value in light of facts such as his status as a convicted felon.

  272. yehaaa6 said:…but we were told there would be a place in Zion for us if we would repent. pretty crazy…
    Ya know, after following this blog for awhile…I STILL haven’t figured out just what the crick was to repent for? Not being WSJ’s idea of blood nobility? Or just more of WSJ’s craziness. I like you and you and you. pack upyour going to Zion…but not you and you and you…so stay here and repent but keep funding my empire..and my red escalade!
    It’s nice to hear from another intelligent insider. Glad to have ya here yehaaa6.

  273. I found this : Arrest records for Joseph Smith found in upstate NY. Again, by their fruit you will know them….
    http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon430.htm

  274. …If you are worried about that child you are more than free to send Carolyn some money…

    And I see Alin is still…Alin. Always an excuse or a misdirect to throw into the mix. I doubt he’ll ever get it.

  275. yehaaa6, I know of a young woman who I suspect has plans to join flds soon, what would you suggest I do?

  276. I’m still at the amazing stumbling block that Warren has some folks thinking that he is suffering for their sins … if that ain’t delusions of grandeur, what is!

  277. anon @ 10:49 join? I don’t know that they’d even think of letting anybody join. the day of “calling” is over, it’s now the day of “choosing”

    mc1199: I guess we were supposed to repent of our complacency to prepare, and we were too light-minded, not srs enough about our salvation.

  278. Oh hey I am curious about any new schisms this past couplefew years.

    And like, what’s with all the “refuge” sites in other states?

  279. States, and countries now that I think on it.

  280. Thanks Cat. Hadn’t seen that exmormon.org site before.

  281. I usually refrain from visiting the Bill Medvecky hate web site, but tonight I guess I just had too much free time.

    His post from yesterday says:
    If I lived in the Creek, I would send Bruce a monthly check for one twelfth of the yearly taxes on my property and be very certain to make the check out to the Legal Taxing Authority in Salt Lake. If Bruce elects to cash that check and put it in his pocket, that’s his problem. All I know is that I paid the Taxes that were due.

    Now, how dumb is this guy anyway? He claims to have a direct contact with the YFZ ranch, but he is too stupid to know that the property in Short Creek is NOT in the “Legal Taxing Authority in Salt Lake” ???

    What a MORON!

  282. Well yes he makes the point that he’s stupid whenever his fingers pass over his keyboard. He can’t help it. Just don’t go there, I don’t.

  283. Maybe I should have put a space in my “What a MORON!” comment.

    I do want to distinguish between posting MORONI and MORON !

    Because I meant MORON. With ! after it.

  284. Thanks Granny Toad, I’ll go sanitize my hands and hit the sack.

  285. “yearly taxes on my property”

    Novel idea.

    FLDS residents in Short Creek paying property taxes (to their local taxing districts).

    Yeah, that would teach Wisan a lesson.

    Triple dog dare.

  286. Annonymous as Fred way up the line. My apology.

    I just re-read it and it does sound like I might have meant disrespect toward you.

    mc1199 – That’s exactly what I was posting to. A dead beat dad, and a bunch of enablers in his wake.

  287. I have a hard time keeping my anonymouses straight … is there a possibility for the anonymouses to attach some type of handle to
    their posting so we could know who we were responding to?
    Thanks anonymouses, (or is that anonymi?)

  288. we anonymous people prefer anonymi!!!

  289. Cool, The evidentary hearing in Arizona is still going forward.

  290. Anonymi,
    Good Morning !

  291. Al

    Cool indeed, it’ll waste another Ten Grand for the FLDS and delay the inevitable another month.

    Kinda costly delay tactics, but hey, why not, its only money, and Warren has lots to burn.

    BTW yehaaa, Lyle still going around door to door with a wheelbarrow collecting for the defense?

    Oh, BTW I read some of that Bile site too. That WC cat thought that the UEP should be divied up amongst the residents.

    Problem is, WC, Warrant sez if you take title of your home you go straight to hell, but not the special Batboy hell that he is in.

  292. Anon,

    Ya can call Bill a MAROON all day long and have him pegged, I cant think of another website out there that is quite as nutty, except for the one ran by the Huge McDonutHole.

  293. “A judge on Thursday terminated the parental rights of six members of the Tony Alamo Christian Ministries, clearing the way for the members’ children to be put up for adoption.

    snip

    Tony Alamo, the ministry’s 75-year-old leader, was sentenced to 175 years in prison in November after being convicted of taking five underage girls across state lines for sex.”

    So his followers, who refused to leave his compound and get real jobs, after being warned, gave up their children.

    http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2010/jan/29/parental-rights-six-alamo-church-members-terminate/

  294. Aye Stamp. I would think as long as the parents are not allowing their children to be abuse it’s none of the state’s business where they live or work. I’m not the judge in charge of these cases however plus there may be info that is sealed.

  295. Al

    Cool indeed, it’ll waste another Ten Grand for the FLDS and delay the inevitable another month.
    ————————————————————-
    Sure why not? Seems like lots of folks are standing around the FLDS with their hands out expecting money. Might as well give it to the lawyers instead and go down fighting.

  296. Wow, 3 hearings in 2 days in 3 different states.

    UEP hearing in Salt Lake City, Utah
    Warren Jeffs hearing in Kingman, Arizona
    Deadbeat dad Merril Jessop hearing in Eldorado, Texas

    I wonder how Willie and his camera crew are going to manage that.

    Bet he really hates that the school district lost the jet.

  297. Looks like there may be justice for Elizabeth Smart after all.

    Prosecutors say Mitchell competent to stand trial

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700006414/Prosecutors-say-Mitchell-competent-to-stand-trial.html

  298. Al

    Paying off 50 (FIFTY COUNT EM) attorneys isnt going down fighting, its going down in flames.

  299. Anon

    Arent there any Willie clones that can run like rabbits? I’ve heard Dee plays a pretty good double.

    Except when he opens his mouth.

  300. “If I lived in the Creek, I would send Bruce a monthly check for one twelfth of the yearly taxes on my property and be very certain to make the check out to the Legal Taxing Authority in Salt Lake.”

    If he’d bothered to read the letter Bruce sent, paying the taxes directly to the tax authorities and providing Bruce with proof of payment was one of the options/suggestions Bruce gave. How utterly typical of Bill to tilt at a windmill and call it a dragon.

  301. Because I meant MORON. With ! after it.

    Eh, Moroni, Moron!, really is there that much difference?

  302. Paying of r50 (FIFTY COUNT EM) attorneys isnt going down fighting, its going down in flames.

    I guess if you’re going to claim martyrdom you’ve at least got to look the part.

    Right?

  303. “Sure why not? Seems like lots of folks are standing around the FLDS with their hands out expecting money. Might as well give it to the lawyers instead and go down fighting.”

    Funny, the FLDS leadership milked their members for nearly everything they had and you want to complain about apostates trying to recieve recompense for the improvements they’ve done to Trust property while under the influence of religious hysteria? How very unAmerican of you.

    Also, they wouldn’t be “going down fighting” if Warren hadn’t deliberately picked the fight. But let’s not mention that, it sheds too much light on the absolute hypocrisy of your attempt to paint the poor, misused FLDS as victims.

  304. Burn, baby, burn, Ron.

    No matter if it is lives and homes of the faithful as Warren Jeffs scripts his destructions.

  305. Ground Hog saw his shadow today,, 6 more weeks of winter,, Are we all excited yet? Lol 🙂

  306. This is interesting its Piccaretta’s response to the Arizona filing that the state will NOt use evidence from Texas in Warren jeffs Trial. this guy is a NUT case.

    http://www.mohavecourts.com/highprofile/743%20-%20Response%20to%20Stipulation%2001-28-10.pdf

  307. Ron, I wonder which attorneys will be left holding bills in the 100’s of thousands once this is all done. In the meantime, they are all aboard for the ride.

    Too bad they dont know what Warren thinks of them.

  308. I am getting lost again. What happened the the Utah Supreme court decision?

  309. #

    Al

    Paying off 50 (FIFTY COUNT EM) attorneys isnt going down fighting, its going down in flames.

    Stamp said this on February 2, 2010 at 9:09 AM

    It might interesting to have a list of the lawyers and who they are representing on this site; kind like the wives list

  310. HHG, the hearing hasn’t happened yet, it’s in 2 weeks.

  311. rih and tbm,
    can you explain pic’s theory of “taint” to us lay people?

  312. DD

    Yeah, it really is pretty nutty this concept of “taint.” Yeah, they learned things later but it doesn’t change what they say and heard back when this crime was being committed.

    In my mind he’s trying to turn a potential cross examination issue into a suppression issue. I like my little phrase: “Taint” taint the fruit of the poison tree.

  313. I just have to share this with you. From the December 2009 minutes of the Utah/Arizona Safety Net Committee. The SN used in the minutes stands for the Safety Net.

    Review of SN Goals for the New Year

    There was some discussion concerning the SN taking on the goal of decriminalizing polygamy. Some felt this is a role the SN should take. One member sees this as a woman’s rights issue. It was stated that a woman might stay in an abuse marriage for fear of prosecution. It was also stated that women have a right to protect their children and cannot always do this with fear of prosecution. Pat stated that the SN cannot take on the role of decriminalizing polygamy as the role of the SN is to ensure safety for all individuals affiliated with polygamy. There was some discussion about the SN maintain neutrality. Some members felt that other members of the SN had involvement in the Texas Raid. One SN member stated that they had involvement in the raid as a consultant on how to act in the best interest of the children. It was asked the assumptions not be made concerning consulting on the raid. There was some acknowledgement that the raid was note conducted perfectly; that the problems seen would have resulted in any large group with child welfare concerns. Some frustration was expressed the SN has had political involvement in the past; that they were involved in the emancipation bill, but that they will not take on the issue of decriminalization. Pat stressed the importance of maintaining neutrality and safety for all. She stated that individuals are open to pursue these interests on their own.

  314. HHG

    I don’t get “taint” really. I’ve never heard Pic argue any legal precedent for “taint” even existing. Even if the search were 100% illegal, the rules only allow the evidence from that search to be suppressed.

    Besides, how can something that happens years later “taint” the facts of what happened in the past?

    I suppose he’s trying to make the case that what certain people learned perhaps biased or prejudiced them, but those are usually cross examination issues. You can make the case that someone has become so biased or prejudiced that their bias or prejudice outweighs the value of their testimony but that’s a different motion than what’s on the table.

    I say it’s all a dog and pony show. It’s what Warren wants since it looks like he’s trying to help the faithful. It makes Pic money and keeps him in the spotlight. It won’t make any difference legally, but it does make for good theater.

  315. Funny, the FLDS leadership milked their members for nearly everything they had and you want to complain about apostates trying to recieve recompense for the improvements they’ve done to Trust property while under the influence of religious hysteria? How very unAmerican of you.
    =================================================
    What the hell? I’ve argued pretty strenuously for people leaving the church to be granted reimbursement for improvements made on the property they resided on. I’ve just argued that we have a court system already in place to do so. Not just on an ex member’s say so.

    As for your argument that the leadership as already milked the membership thereby further milking the membership is somehow positive makes no sense.

  316. I’ve argued pretty strenuously for people leaving the church to be granted reimbursement for improvements made on the property they resided on. I’ve just argued that we have a court system already in place to do so.
    ——–
    As if the FLDS listen to what the court system tells them to do, hehe.

  317. Piccaretta is really not letting go of his obsession with the YFZ evidence! Maybe the FLDS offered him a cash bonus or a couple of their most subservient women, if he can only get the YFZ evidence ruled against in some way, any way he can.

    It’s the only reason I can see for his tunnel-vision regarding evidence that isn’t even related to the case he’s actually arguing.

  318. So the Pearl of Great Price was on papyrus, but the Book of Mormon was on Golden Plates ? I didn’t know that. I haven’t yet read the Pearl of Great Price, I will have to get around to that.

    catwhisperer said

    Looked up Pearl of Great Price on Internet, LDS Church website states most of Pearl of Great Price written by Joseph Smith, states only Book of Abraham was only part of Pearl of Great Price that was translated from Egyptian papyri.

    Appears that Pearl of Great Price contains church’s article of faith as well as Joseph Smith translations of portions of Bible.

    From LDS Church website this statement appears:

    “The Pearl of Great Price is a selection of choice materials touching many significant aspects of the faith and doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These items were produced by the Prophet Joseph Smith and were published in the Church periodicals of his day.”

    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/pgp/introduction

    One thing that was interesting was Articles of Faith, too bad the FLDS seem to ignore items 11 thru 13. Guess ole Warren never read this part about being “true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men;

    and “We believe in being subject to Kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1

    IMO it appears that Warren , Willie and the rest of the FLDS leadership never got the message- Obey the law, that means no child brides no polygamy, no money laundering, no racketeering, no violations of Mann Act or Rico laws. It’s against the law dimwits, break the law in Texas get a free ride to Huntsville, TX.

  319. CW the ‘Book of Moses’ was on papyrus and translated by Joseph Smith. The translation is found in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ book which is considered Scripture by the FLDS Church.

    Subsequent science in Egyptology makes a completely different translation of the papyrus and refutes it being related to Moses.

  320. Ellie you have to connect the dots Mr. Piccaretta’s obsession with YFZ Ranch evidence is a means to challenge and refute the evidence that was used to bring the San Angelo Grand Jury indictments. When the hearing is held the attempt to open/explore the sequence of events and evidence is an aid to the ‘Dirty Dozen’ indictees, especially Warren S. Jeffs himself, whom is one of the accused.

  321. I guess that makes sense. Is Piccaretta representing Warren Jeffs in Texas then, too? Or is he just doing this because he does whatever Warren wants?

  322. Warren is the prophet, and he is suffering for our sins. because of our lack of faith, he is still in prison.
    ………………..

    Oh sheesh. This is so sad and so sick and twisted.

    Warren Jeffs is not Jesus Christ, by the way.

  323. I cannot understand how anyone could deify Warren Jeffs, or Joseph Smith for that matter.

  324. CW the ‘Book of Moses’ was on papyrus and translated by Joseph Smith. The translation is found in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ book which is considered Scripture by the FLDS Church.

    Subsequent science in Egyptology makes a completely different translation of the papyrus and refutes it being related to Moses.

    cajIM said this on February 2, 2010 at 11:09 AM

    The LDS Church website says Book of Moses not from papyrus, states Book of Moses written by Joseph Smith. Statement from LDS website: “Book of Moses. An extract from the book of Genesis of Joseph Smith’s Translation of the Bible, which he began in June 1830.”

    LDS church says Smith wrote Book of Moses in 1830. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/pgp/introduction

    Yes LDS Church considers this scripture, but he wrote it based on KJV Bible IMO.

    Don’t know what FLDS considers scripture, but it must be different from any organized religion be it Baptist, Catholic or LDS etc. The actions of Warren Jeffs have placed himself and his followers at risk of prison, one must ask is Jeffs around the bend like polygamist Brian David Mitchell or Tasha LeBaron?

  325. How’s Mike Picaretta going to impeach testimony(s) of either Ranger Long or Sheriff Doran if/when they testify. Gerald Goldstein for the defense, in the 51st District Court in Texas, has admitted that there was no evidence to prove the search warrants for the YFZ Ranch violated probable cause protections. Matt Smith has stated repeatedly that he could go to trial and has formally stipulated it to the Court. If the hearing goes off badly for Mike Piccaretta he could end up with the YFZ Ranch evidence being allowed into the trial, he’d better think through his next move because it could prove costly.

  326. I think that cajIM meant that the Book of Abraham (not the Book of Moses) was from a papyrus which did not date from the period of Abraham.
    It is an Egyptian funeral papyrus of a much later date, having nothing at all to do with the patriarch Abraham.
    I simply cannot believe that anyone would find this religion credible given the evidence against it.

    There is a website devoted to debunking the Book of Abraham.

    Here is the link.
    http://www.bookofabraham.com/

  327. Ooopps, sorry yes I did mistakenly say Book of Moses when I meant Book of Abraham and modern Egyptology refutes it being related to Abraham.

  328. i don’t think pic is defending warren in texas. i’m not sure if its going to be goldstein or just who it will be. heck, there’s a plethera of them at every hearing, so there should be someone available.

  329. “As for your argument that the leadership as already milked the membership thereby further milking the membership is somehow positive makes no sense.”

    Your argument that there are scores of people lining up to take money from the FLDS makes just as much sense.

  330. “What the hell? I’ve argued pretty strenuously for people leaving the church to be granted reimbursement for improvements made on the property they resided on.”

    Not really. All you’ve said is that they should go to court about it. Of course, when you’re broke and homeless going to court is a bit of a problem since most lawyers require cash up front to take a case. From where I sit you’re just trying to defend the FLDS “right” to milk their followers and abandon them without recourse.

  331. I think the entire group deserves reimbursement of their substantial contributions to the priesthood organization – It should be a class action lawsuit.

  332. The “truthwillprevail” site recently posted a letter, purportedly from Raymond Jessop to his family…and it reads a LOT like HoneyDawn.

    I can only imagine what other letters from him would be like:

    “My underage wife has been in labor for three whole days! Wow! The midwife says we should take her to the hospital but Prophet Jeffs says no. Sure grateful we have our perfect Prophet to help decide these things for us. Sure wouldn’t want to spend time in ‘the pen’!!”

  333. Well you figure 10 men in texas each with a lawyer, thats 10 lawyers, then you goldstein (HIGH PRICED) representing the group of 10 in the filing of unlawful raid. Then you have 40 or 5 defending UEP trust, and then several defending Warren in Arizona, then lawyers defending xmembers. The list goes on and on, and the pockets get deeper and deeper, with less money to pay for it.

  334. Then you have 4 major players already in prison or going to prison.

  335. Indeed it would be good to compile a list of the attorenys the FLDS have paid for over the last 5 years. As I recall, Warren has 3 alone for his current case.

    30 just for the two Utah SC issues.

    I think there are at least 15 in Texas, the 3 in AZ, 3 on his USC appeal, 1 for Steed, and of course another round of ten or so for the UEP paying both sides.

    Its a busload alright. Judges involved? at least 10 I can think of in a minute, the USC and the SCOT to name a few.

  336. There are places in Warren’s dictations where he talks about the attorneys needing to be paid.

    It must be costing in the hundreds of thousands, if not approaching a million or more.

    How kind and Christian of him to blame it all on his followers for not having “enough faith,” especially since they got themselves in this mess by following his orders!

    This is what happens after generations of isolation, inbreeding, fanaticism, and lack of education – they are imploding into their own selfmade black hole.

  337. BTW yehaaa, Lyle still going around door to door with a wheelbarrow collecting for the defense?
    —————-

    I haven’t seen the wheelbarrow for a while now, but they never took it door-to-door, it was usually in the saturday work meetings. They did ask for whatever donations you could give, on top of the 1000.00 per month, however.
    ========

    “We believe in being subject to Kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1

    IMO it appears that Warren , Willie and the rest of the FLDS leadership never got the message- Obey the law, that means no child brides no polygamy, no money laundering, no racketeering, no violations of Mann Act or Rico laws. It’s against the law dimwits, break the law in Texas get a free ride to Huntsville, TX.
    ———–
    what I was taught is that we follow the laws of the land, as far as they do not conflict with the laws of God. yeeeah take that for what it’s worth.
    ============

    Oh sheesh. This is so sad and so sick and twisted.

    Warren Jeffs is not Jesus Christ, by the way.
    ——-

    but he does claim to be the mouthpiece of God on earth, and you’re supposed to treat everything he says as the word and revelations of God. and then there’s “God and the Prophet always and only do right” yep.

  338. warren must be hard of hearing if he’s God’s mouthpiece on Earth because he sure got a bunch of stuff wrong.

  339. Raymond:

    “This is very much a new experience and Wow! All I can say is, it is a new experience.”

    You betcha, Raymond, but in ten years, you’ll get used to it.

  340. he obviously isn’t very well versed in writing letters.

    i think when he tells mary to tell “grandfather” where he is he’s referring to merril.

  341. merril has at least 2 attorneys, goldy and amy hennington. then there’s that brandon guy who crossed dr. beall and stevens, randy wilson.

  342. mudpuppy says that raymond can have newspapers and magazines delivered by subscription or books from the store. maybe we should chip in and get him a subscription, any suggestions?

  343. How about the gay newspaper, the Advocate?
    This would give him all the information he needed to be a better boyfriend for Bubba, his cellmate.

  344. i was trying to think of one that was a women’s rights magazine so he’d know how his wives were going to be acting when he got out.

  345. You don’t think they are going to reassign his wives pronto ?
    Can’t waste a second of a woman’s reproductive potential, can we ?

  346. remember keeping sweet, he’s a martyr for the cause now. surely martyr’s get to keep their wives during their martyrdom, but if not, ernie’s back in. maybe he can get his 3 back.

  347. I don’t know if that’s a precedent that Warren would want to be set; the giving away of prison widows. Not likely to happen as long as he hold full control. If he gets another conviction and it begins to look like a life sentence, some one will see the opportunity and will begin “aspiring”.

  348. #

    he obviously isn’t very well versed in writing letters.

    i think when he tells mary to tell “grandfather” where he is he’s referring to merril.

    Proud Texas said this on February 2, 2010 at 1:12 PM
    *****

    Well in all fairness to Raymond, it’s entirely possible that merril is mary’s grandfather.

  349. BTW, that last post was tongue in cheek, I know that mary is raymond’s wife and merril is raymond’s father, but it is still entirely possible.

  350. you’re right lady sadie, in this group it isn’t just likely, it’s highly likely.

  351. Obviously the Eldorado Success, PT.

  352. then maybe Raymond will smuggle out of prison some of those pre-loaded turkey basters he has used in the past to guarantee the fecundity of his harem ?

  353. http://www.mohavecourts.com/highprofile/743%20-%20Response%20to%20Stipulation%2001-28-10.pdf
    —————————————————
    Pretty powerful response to stipulation. Apparently the concern is tainted testimony from the evidence.

  354. Your argument that there are scores of people lining up to take money from the FLDS makes just as much sense.
    ================================================
    I’ve never made that argument. I will however point out that one person holding out his hand for money he didn’t earn and doesn’t deserve is one person too many. That is, unless you are the type who don’t mind people giving money away as long as it doesn’t come out of your pocket.

  355. al, tainted testimony is an appeal topic, not a pretrial one.

  356. Al

    “I’ve never made that argument. I will however point out that one person holding out his hand for money he didn’t earn and doesn’t deserve is one person too many. That is, unless you are the type who don’t mind people giving money away as long as it doesn’t come out of your pocket.”

    Yet the FLDS have lined up for all sorts of government funds and aid. And yes it comes out of everyones pocket.

  357. hey where is Fred?
    Someone needs to deal with Alinusara

  358. Is that long white underwear he is wearing on truthwillprevail site???

  359. Your argument that there are scores of people lining up to take money from the FLDS makes just as much sense.
    ================================================
    “I’ve never made that argument.”

    Really, then what was this supposed to mean?

    “Sure why not? Seems like lots of folks are standing around the FLDS with their hands out expecting money. Might as well give it to the lawyers instead and go down fighting.”

    “I will however point out that one person holding out his hand for money he didn’t earn and doesn’t deserve is one person too many.”

    Just who would that “one person” be?

    “That is, unless you are the type who don’t mind people giving money away as long as it doesn’t come out of your pocket.”

    Oooh, very nice ad hominem. Almost subtle! I repeat; just who is it you feel is standing around holding their hand out for FLDS money who doesn’t have a claim to it?

  360. Why Alin how advanced of you to point out to the FLDS congregants that tithing is tantamount to welfare given to the unwashed and needy. I understand Warren has his hand out to every family for $1,000Dollars per month to fund his ‘Holy War’ and sits safely ensconced in his jail cell afar from any consequences to his directions and decisions. I guess you don’t object to people giving money away to support high crimes?

  361. yeeha: but he does claim to be the mouthpiece of God on earth, and you’re supposed to treat everything he says as the word and revelations of God. and then there’s “God and the Prophet always and only do right” yep.

    …………………………..

    Yeah well God must want Warren to shut up, because look where He sent him.

  362. Yea Anon that is long underwear raymond is wearing in the pic, that’s his “holy” underwear he was allowed to keep while in either the Schleicher County jail or the Tom Green County jail. Notice he bitches about only being allow boxers and white coveralls at the prison. Too bad he wasn’t sent to the FL “tent city” prison where the warden makes all male inmates wear pink coveralls even when on roadside work duty.

  363. anon @ 10:49 join? I don’t know that they’d even think of letting anybody join. the day of “calling” is over, it’s now the day of “choosing”
    ====================================================
    Some Flds books were found in the room of a young woman who boards by my home, and a while back a package came for her, return address name “Lindsey Barlow” in Utah. She is in her early twenties and very naive and young in nature.

  364. Notice Ray was also wearing one of those pesky sex offender wrist bands too.

    He could have gotten a biker tattoo or pierced his tongue, instead he got the latest in FLDS Priesthoodlum fashion statement.

  365. Just so our FLDS and ex-FLDS readers know
    I am not in favor of any assault of anybody in prison

  366. HHG, I agree. Prison should be a deterrent to crime not where more crimes happen. I also do not believe prisoners should be afforded any “privileges” either, as I said prison should be a deterrent to crime, therefore, no TV’s, radios, computers. No food in the cells they should only eat in the mess hall and only what is served in the mess hall. They should be confined to their cells and only allowed out for eating, showering and a short time for exercise each day. When they are visited (by immediate legal family only or lawyers) they should be behind plexiglass windows. They should not be allowed to add “homey” touches to their cells, no pictures or anything else. As I said prisons should be a deterrent to crime not a pleasant place to be.

  367. Speaking of sending magazines,, Do they still print “Mad” magazines? LOL

  368. I’m not condoning cockroaches either but the life they get in prison isnt one to be highly recommended. I presume that smirk will be wiped off his face before too long.

    60 days with no correspondence will give him a chance to reflect.

    Unfortunately we wont get Ray’s love letters on TWP talking about how the Truth Prevailed – so that letter will have to suffice for now.

    ===============

    Raymond Jessop

    Sex Offender

    10 years

    8,000 fine

    The Truth Prevailed alright!

  369. If this young girl is getting packages from Lindsay Barlow, she is being courted by someone in the FLDS.

    Lindsay Barlow is one of Warren’s henchmen. You can see a list of Warren’s Purgatory Jail visitors here:

    And you can see his photo here:

  370. If he needs any reading its the “REAL BIBLE” not the Triple threat they allowed him.

    I think he’s lived through enough of “Warrens Mad Magazine -Where’s Waldo” episodes to last a lifetime.

  371. Anon

    Lindsay looks like a punk, maybe thats the attraction for Warren. The other big visitor is Nephi Jeffs, followed by mostly attorneys. Wright, Bugden, Yengitch. No Pic or Parker.

  372. Alinusara10 I guess you missed my note to you last night. Am I going to have to leave love notes to you everyday?

    Today is Tuesday and Alinusara10 FU,
    Love Fred

  373. This list of jail visitors was while he was in Purgatory during the 2007 Utah rape as an accomplice trial.

    Pic and Parker weren’t active in that trial. He had Wally Budgen, Richard Wright and Tara Issacson.

    Make sure you add them to the attorney list since they are heading up his appeal to the Utah Supreme Court.

    LadieSadie, are you making that list? You DO want to earn your scribe position at the WTF Ranch, don’t you?

  374. Hey Fred,
    Thanks for stopping by.
    We do need you earlier in the day though.

  375. Lady Sadie is indeed the official scribe of the First Church of the Holy Matriarchs of WTZ Ranch.

  376. Sorry catwhisperer, I like to take late lunches.

  377. Anon 3:20 pm :
    Are you sure the young woman who boards in your home is not a mole for the FLDS organization, spying on you for some reason ?
    If you are the Orthodox anon from last week with the supposedly Jewish young divorcee living in your home, why would someone from the FLDS be courting her ? It doesn’t add up for me, something’s fishy here.

  378. Someone send Lindsay Barlow a note saying the young woman in question had an ancestor who was part African American.

    That should get rid of him.

  379. I doubt they are courting her, I would say it is the other way around. She was married for a few years to an Orthodox Jewish boy I know and was badly abused by him (we worked hard to get her out of that marriage) and I don’t think she has any previous ties to this group, although I don’t know how she got their books and so on.

  380. Anon E Mouse is wise.

  381. Anon E Mouse, not sure if that will work! She is Swedish/irish and definately looks it, she didn’t grow up in America eit

  382. Anon E Mouse, not sure if that will work! She is Swedish/irish and definately looks it, she didn’t grow up in America either.

  383. Swedish/Irish Orthodox Jew? I’m not saying it isn’t possible, just that I’m not following this whole story.

  384. Anon,
    how do you think they met each other ?

  385. Her parents were converts before she was born.

  386. is she still observant ?

  387. are the FLDS now proselytizing among the Jews ?

  388. I thought she was, not so sure. She is an adult, so I can’t stop her from joining them, but I would not like to see her end up in another bad marriage at such a young age, and she is the type to believe these kind of men, from what I have been reading about them (sadly).

  389. Anon, I am very concerned about this young woman, and I am concerned that she is living in your home. I don’t view this as innocent. FLDS people are not proselytizers, they don’t go looking for converts.
    I suspect they are trying to recruit her in some way to learn more about you, because they perceive she is vulnerable. Be careful.

  390. It just doesn’t make sense to me, as I had never heard of this group until some books were found by accident in her room, and I decided to look it up online. We live on the other side of the country and all our friends/contacts are like ourselves in religion/culture.

  391. She does happen to be moving out in three weeks, so we will see.

  392. Glad to hear it.

  393. Holy cow! First we have the LDS baptizing the Jewish Holocaust victims by proxy.

    Now the FLDS proselytizing among the Jews ?

    From one Anon to another, I can assure you that the FLDS books aren’t something you can buy at Barnes and Noble. She is getting them straight from the source. Obviously if Lindsay Barlow sent her some.

    Please go visit the childbrides.org web site and read about how this group has treated some men, women and children.

    PLEASE try to get her to look at it to research more about the group she is thinking about becoming entangled with.

    As was suggested last week, you should contact Doris Hanson with the Shield and Refuge Ministry.

    Or buy a copy of Dr. Steven Hassan’s books “Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves” and “Combatting Cult Mind Control.”

    check out the resources he has on his web site http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/

  394. are the FLDS now proselytizing among the Jews ?

    I’d rather doubt it. It’s actually rather interesting, the LDS always act so sweet and nice trying to convert folks, it seems the FLDS are always f*** you, you evil gentile.

  395. Geez Sister Catwhisperer, give a girl an almost impossible task why don’t ya, is this a test? I think it would probably be easier to keep track of the FLDS family ties than trying to keep track of all the attorneys but….I have started compiling the requested list, please let me know of any corrections and additions:

    Richard Wright Warren
    Tara Issaacson Warren
    Walter Bugden Warren
    Michael Piccarreta Warren
    Jefferson Keenan Warren
    Michael D. Zimmerman FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    Troy L. Booher FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    Katherine Carreau FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    Peter Stirba FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    Bret W. Rawson FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    R. Blake Hamilton FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    Kenneth A. Okazaki FLDS Cities in UEP Matter (I think)
    Stephen C. Clark FLDS Cities in UEP Matter (I think)
    J. Ryan Mitchell Harker Dairy, LLC in UEP Matter
    Bennett Tueller Harker Dairy, LLC in UEP Matter
    Rodney R. Parker Willie Jessop and Rod Parker in UEP Matter
    Richard A. Van Wagoner Willie Jessop and Rod Parker in UEP Matter
    William H. Leigh Don’t know who representing in UEP Matter
    Roger H. Hoole Elissa Walls and “Lost Boys” in UEP Matter
    Gregory N. Hoole Elissa Walls and “Lost Boys” in UEP Matter
    Jeffrey Shields Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Zachary T. Shields Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Mark L. Callister Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Michael D. Stanger Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Natalie Malonis Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter /Carolyn Jessop in Child Support Matter
    James Bradshaw Allen Glade Steed
    Mark R. Moffat Allen Glade Steed
    Willam A. Richards State of Arizona in UEP Matter
    Chad B. Sampson State of Arizona in UEP Matter
    Terry Goddard State of Arizona in UEP Matter
    Tim A. Bodily State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Randy S. Hunter State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Annina M. Mitchell State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Jerrold Jensen State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Eric Nichols State of Texas in Criminal Trial of FLDS Men
    Mark Stevens Raymond Jessop
    Brandon Hudson Raymond Jessop
    Jerry Goldstein Merril Jessop/FLDS in Texas Criminal Matters
    Randy Wilson Allan Keate/Michael Emack in Texas Criminal Trials
    Angela Goodwin State of Texas in Criminal Trial of FLDS Men

  396. Lady Sadie, High Priestesshood Holder,
    You have done well – I now pronounce you the Official Scribe of the Order.
    Congratulations –

  397. ? Hudson is Brandon.

    why don’t we take out everyone who isn’t being paid by the FLDS and see how many of just those there are.

  398. Ron in Houston said :
    are the FLDS now proselytizing among the Jews ?

    I’d rather doubt it. It’s actually rather interesting, the LDS always act so sweet and nice trying to convert folks, it seems the FLDS are always f*** you, you evil gentile.

    Ah, but Ron in Houston, Jews are not Gentiles,(in Hebrew, gentile = goyim, means “of the nations”) by definition.

  399. Believers in the Mormon faith categorize everyone who doesn’t believe in Mormonism as Gentiles. That means in their vernacular, Gentiles are both Jews and traditional Gentiles.

  400. When I first read Anon’s post about the young woman reading these books, I thought it might be another Mormon Fundy group proselytizing – like the Centennial Park group. They frequently recruit from the mainstream population. I even know of Native Americans and East India Hindus they have taken as wives.

    But since Anon mentioned Lindsay Barlow, that is definitely FLDS. So, either they are recruiting her or Anon is pulling our leg.

  401. catwhisperer said:
    are the FLDS now proselytizing among the Jews ?
    ——–
    I personally highly doubt it. as far as I understood, that wasn’t to happen until the ten tribes’ planet and Enoch’s planet rejoined with the earth after the great judgement, then the priesthood people would go among the people of the earth and spread the word of God. but, you never know, I guess. It is also possible that she could have asked for them from the FLDS people, but usually I’d think they’d say “f*** you” as Ron says. either that or not give the time of day.

  402. LadieSadie, you have done a remarkable job with the lawyer list. I read Pics Jan 28th Response to Stipulation and he mentions another lawyer from the Arizona Attorney General’s Office who scoured through the “tainted” items retrieved from the YFZ. His name is Assistant Attorney General Timothy Linnens.

    And there is Amy Hennington, Merril Jessop’s lawyer.

    Given that he is an Assistant AG, maybe he should be on the list, too.

    Did you go through Wisan’s Dec 31 UEP filing? He had a list of about 30 UEP lawsuits and there were names there, if I recall.

    Yep, you are a most sacred scribe!

  403. I did leave one attorney off (freudian slip he should be disbarred):

    Mark Shurtleff – attorney for Willie Jessop and FLDS under guise of working for the State of Utah

  404. Isn’t there an Amy Hennington or something like that, lady sadie?

    Doesn’t she have a lien on the YFZ?

    I’m off to sue myself and answer myself nothing again.

  405. Lady Sadie certainly has an innate talent for creating lists, and Miele of course is gifted in another way – suing herself, and answering herself nothing.

  406. HAHA LadieSadie on Shurtleff!

    And Miele, it is Amy Hennington who’s Merril’s lawyer, at least on the case with Carolyn.

  407. OK, Anonymous @7:11, I very quickly scrolled through Wisan’s Dec. 31 filing and added a couple more attorney’s plus Linnens’, Hennington, and Mark Smith. Your assignment is to go through the rest of the filing and fill in the blanks, LOL.

  408. OK, Updated List of Attorney’s missed up in the FLDS cluster Fu**:

    Attorney – Client
    Richard Wright – Warren
    Tara Issaacson – Warren
    Walter Bugden – Warren
    Michael Piccarreta – Warren
    Jefferson Keenan – Warren
    Michael D. Zimmerman – FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    Troy L. Booher – FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    Katherine Carreau – FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    Peter Stirba – FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    Bret W. Rawson – FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    R. Blake Hamilton – FLDS in UEP Matter (I think)
    Kenneth A. Okazaki – FLDS Cities in UEP Matter (I think)
    Stephen C. Clark – FLDS Cities in UEP Matter (I think)
    J. Ryan Mitchell – Harker Dairy, LLC in UEP Matter
    Bennett Tueller – Harker Dairy, LLC in UEP Matter
    Rodney R. Parker – Willie Jessop and Rod Parker in UEP Matter
    Richard A. Van Wagoner – Willie Jessop and Rod Parker in UEP Matter
    William H. Leigh – Don’t know who representing in UEP Matter
    Roger H. Hoole – Elissa Walls and “Lost Boys” in UEP Matter
    Gregory N. Hoole – Elissa Walls and “Lost Boys” in UEP Matter
    Jeffrey Shields – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Zachary T. Shields – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Mark L. Callister – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Michael D. Stanger – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Natalie Malonis – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter /Carolyn Jessop in Child Support Matter
    James Bradshaw – Allen Glade Steed
    Mark R. Moffat – Allen Glade Steed
    Willam A. Richards – State of Arizona in UEP Matter
    Chad B. Sampson – State of Arizona in UEP Matter
    Terry Goddard – State of Arizona in UEP Matter
    Tim A. Bodily – State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Randy S. Hunter – State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Annina M. Mitchell – State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Jerrold Jensen – State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Eric Nichols – State of Texas in Criminal Trial of FLDS Men
    Mark Stevens – Raymond Jessop
    Brandon Hudson – Raymond Jessop
    Jerry Goldstein – Merril Jessop/FLDS in Texas Criminal Matters
    Randy Wilson – Allan Keate/Michael Emack in Texas Criminal Trials
    Angela Goodwin – State of Texas in Criminal Trial of FLDS Men
    Mark Shurtleff – Willie Jessop and FLDS under guise of working for the State of Utah
    Timothy Linnens – State of Arizona in Warren Jeffs Criminal Trial
    Matt Smith – State of Arizona in Warren Jeffs Criminal Trial
    Amy Hennington – Merril Jessop in Child Custody/Texas Criminal Matters
    Richard K. Chamberlain – Hildale City in UEP Matter
    Raymond Scott Berry – Willie Jessop/FLDS in UEP Matter

  409. …and we need an accountant and an attorney to give us a cost estimate on this list as well..

  410. LadieSadie,
    Then I guess I’d better call me date tonight and cancel.

  411. I kind of like ProudTexan’s suggestion of 2 lists – the “Good Guys” and the “Lawyer List of Losers.”

  412. Amy Hennington was sitting in front of the bar with the other attorneys in raymond’s case when wee willie and sly sam were passing notes. she was the lucky one who got to receive them.

  413. OK, I am going to get really fancy and create a spreadsheet by client, lawyer, state, legal issue, etc.

    I like spreadsheets so I can sort them. And their easy to add to, as tomorrow there will be more lawsuits and lawyers.

    I did call my date and canceled. Now, back to Excel.

  414. “Amy Hennington was sitting in front of the bar”

    HAHA, wasn’t she the one picked up for DUI?

  415. Hey Anon,
    Canceling your date to create an Excel spreadsheet ?
    He can’t be too exciting a prospect then.
    Sorry

  416. No Anonymous, the one picked up for DUI was Mindy something or other.

  417. Well, it was only a dinner date. He just nuked some left over lasagna and is sitting on the sofa watching basketball or some other sport eating on a TV tray.

    He’s happy – I’m happy.

    And he is very exciting, but after 24 years together … well you get my drift.

  418. Mindy Montfort was the one picked up for DUI, she was Annette Jeffs attorney at one time.

  419. Oh yeah, I forgot to add that I only had to call down to the family room and tell him what container the lasagna is in.

  420. …mine just sits next to me on the sofa and watches me do paperwork I take home from the office…. I guess that counts as a date after 17 years of marriage…

  421. Mindy Montfort was the one picked up for DUI, she was Annette Jeffs attorney at one time.

    Do I have to add her too? LOL I think we should just go from this date forward, except for the cases with verdicts the FLDS is appealing -like Warrens, Raymond’s, Keate’s, Emack.

    Otherwise, this spreadsheet will look like a phone book.

  422. catwhisperer you’re sitting on the same sofa, yeah, that’s a date.

  423. i say leave the attorneys from the removal off unless they are still involved.

  424. Look! Over there ——–>

    But don’t look at the child brides.

  425. catwhisperer & excel-anonymous: you two are cracking me up. 🙂

    “I forgot to add that I only had to call down to the family room and tell him what container the lasagna is in.”

    “you’re sitting on the same sofa, yeah, that’s a date.”

    heeheeee, I’m/we’re at the 16 year mark — and there are times when going to Whole Foods instead of H.E.B. is very nearly *a date*.

    It’s expensive, you both get to a meal more extravagant than usual – and if you’re crafty, you get it in a container that doesn’t require doing dishes.

    Maybe next time I’ll wear high-heels for panache ~

    ah~~ date night.

    p.s. I’ve kinda avoided this thread because that opening picture of Allen Steed mugging Elisa, who is almost in a fetal-position, just turns my stomach. Talk about a poster for *forced contact* — and that’s with a guy within a decade of her own age. ugh.

  426. Add

    Mark Dykes; Spencer Austin; Brandon Mark FOR UEP

    Meb Anderson FOR Twin Cities

  427. Texas mom

    It is a tough picture – juxtapose that with Raymonds grinning behind the glass.

    Too bad the FLDS cant see they are committing crimes. A few years in the pokey might get them to come down to earth.

    Bill said he was a few cells down from Son of Sam. Wonder who the FLDS will meet.

  428. Stamp is that FOR the FLDS in the UEP Matter or FOR Wisan and the Trust in the UEP Matter?

  429. The first three are on the UEP team IRT the Utah Supreme Court hearing, these names taken off this list:

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2010/01/utah-supreme-court-hearings-set/#comments

    Also it may be good to note, the FLDS are responsible for UEP attorneys but not for Goodard, Bodily, and other Government attorneys. The taxpayers pay for those.

  430. OK, new updated list of Attorneys (I have 53 so far).

    Attorney – Client
    Richard Wright – Warren
    Tara Issaacson – Warren
    Walter Bugden – Warren
    Michael Piccarreta – Warren
    Jefferson Keenan – Warren
    Michael D. Zimmerman – FLDS in UEP Matter
    Troy L. Booher – FLDS in UEP Matter
    Katherine Carreau – FLDS in UEP Matter
    Peter Stirba – FLDS Cities in UEP Matter
    Bret W. Rawson – FLDS in UEP Matter
    R. Blake Hamilton – FLDS in UEP Matter
    Kenneth A. Okazaki – FLDS Cities in UEP Matter
    Stephen C. Clark – FLDS Cities in UEP Matter
    J. Ryan Mitchell – Harker Dairy, LLC in UEP Matter
    Bennett Tueller – Harker Dairy, LLC in UEP Matter
    Rodney R. Parker – Willie Jessop and Rod Parker in UEP Matter
    Richard A. Van Wagoner – Willie Jessop and Rod Parker in UEP Matter
    William H. Leigh – Don’t know who representing in UEP Matter
    Roger H. Hoole – Elissa Walls and “Lost Boys” in UEP Matter
    Gregory N. Hoole – Elissa Walls and “Lost Boys” in UEP Matter
    Jeffrey Shields – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Zachary T. Shields – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Mark L. Callister – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Michael D. Stanger – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Natalie Malonis – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter /Carolyn Jessop in Child Support Matter
    James Bradshaw – Allen Glade Steed
    Mark R. Moffat – Allen Glade Steed
    Willam A. Richards – State of Arizona in UEP Matter
    Chad B. Sampson – State of Arizona in UEP Matter
    Terry Goddard – State of Arizona in UEP Matter
    Tim A. Bodily – State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Randy S. Hunter – State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Annina M. Mitchell – State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Jerrold Jensen – State of Utah in UEP Matter
    Eric Nichols – State of Texas in Criminal Trial of FLDS Men
    Mark Stevens – Raymond Jessop
    Brandon Hudson – Raymond Jessop
    Jerry Goldstein – Merril Jessop/FLDS in Texas Criminal Matters
    Randy Wilson – Allan Keate/Michael Emack in Texas Criminal Trials
    Angela Goodwin – State of Texas in Criminal Trial of FLDS Men
    Mark Shurtleff – Willie Jessop and FLDS under guise of working for the State of Utah
    Timothy Linnens – State of Arizona in Warren Jeffs Criminal Trial
    Matt Smith – State of Arizona in Warren Jeffs Criminal Trial
    Amy Hennington – Merril Jessop in Child Custody/Texas Criminal Matters
    Richard K. Chamberlain – Hildale City in UEP Matter
    Raymond Scott Berry – Willie Jessop/FLDS in UEP Matter
    Mark Dykes – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Spencer Austin – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Brandon Mark – Bruce Wisan and UEP Trust in UEP Matter
    Meb Anderson – FLDS Cities in UEP Matter
    M. Lane Mohlen – FLDS Cities in UEP Matter
    Bill Richards – State of Arizona in UEP Matter
    Blake Hamilton – FLDS Cities in UEP Matter

  431. OK I threw out the suggestion for the list partly tongue in cheek but partly because it was hard to believe that there would be the 50 lawyers that someone said must be bankrupting the FLDS but in your total of 53 I count 20 as “white hats” so that leaves 33 that the FLDS is supporting.
    I think another totally mind boggling number is the number Wisan has had to hire to counter FLDS lawsuits. I count Wisan 8 of the “white hats”
    Thanks bunches to LadieSadie (and to her husband for forgoing what looks to have been a very exciting date)

  432. HHG

    That brings up another question, which is, who pays for which “White Hat”?

    Obviously, the FLDS are going to pay Wisans team. So there’s that to add back in to the FLDS pile.

    IRT Shurtleff, Goddard Nichols and teams, those are government attorneys and will be paid for by taxpayers.

    Thank you FLDS.

    IRT the Hooles, or other litigants attorneys, its likely those will fall in the “FLDS bill pile” as well..

    Now, have we added all the attorneys for the Dirty Dozen?

    Randy Wilson, Goldy, and Parker all are working multiple cases. Though they and their associates may be listed once, the fact they are working multiple cases multiplies the factor for the FLDS.

    So it might read:

    FLDS Attorneys

    Parker UEP
    Parker Harker
    Parker Warren
    Parker Lit 4
    Parker Lit 5
    Parker etc
    Parker etc
    Parker etc

    Randy Wilson Raymond Jessop
    Randy Wilson Allan Keate
    Randy Wilson Mike Emack
    Randy Wilson etc
    Randy Wilson etc
    Randy Wilson etc
    Randy Wilson etc

    Goldenstien Supression
    Goldenstien Warren
    Goldenstien Bigamy
    Goldenstien etc
    Goldenstien etc
    Goldenstien etc

    The above is just an example of how this has spun out of control and there can be multiple cases per attorney. I am sure that the number of cases that the FLDS will pay for will eventually surpass well over 50 LadySadies list is a great start. I wouldn’t doubt they start a thread on it once there are a few more names added to the list.

  433. “But since Anon mentioned Lindsay Barlow, that is definitely FLDS. So, either they are recruiting her or Anon is pulling our leg.”

    My vote is the later.

  434. I guess my point was it adds up fast, wonder if Warren has a printout to study up on in his spare time.

  435. #

    “But since Anon mentioned Lindsay Barlow, that is definitely FLDS. So, either they are recruiting her or Anon is pulling our leg.”

    My vote is the later.

    Betty said this on February 3, 2010 at 7:13 AM

    Yep, I figured that out days ago!

  436. I love the pictures at the top of the ‘Open Discussion’. Reminds me of the endless book expose`, pictures you don’t see in ‘National Geographic’ and justice denied situations. Good job to the ‘Fldstexas’ for keeping the focus on the past, present and ongoing racketeering that is the FLDS Church mission. Trafficking in ‘Child Brides’, ‘Lost Boys’, endless reassignments, long list of ‘apostates’ and the Court administration of the UEPTrust is not the normal day to day functions of most established religions in America. Being devoted to breaking the law, ignoring court rulings/verdicts, operating corrupt local municipality(s), embezzlement of trust funds and condoning members felony actions isn’t how any religion functions in the U.S., only fanatical religious groups do that routinely.

    ‘Holy War’ is a costly form of underworld operation and a devoted faith faction of fanatics is prerequisite to it’s successful undertaking. FLDS Theocracy over American Democracy is the agenda and nothing to date seems sufficient enough to constrain it’s established enterprise. Senator Harry Reid’s call for a Federal Task Force is the proper response to handle this ongoing crime wave.

  437. Sounds like a fishing expedition to me, LadySadie.

  438. Texas Mom,
    Leader of our Holy Order of Matriarchs of WTF, sorry I missed you.
    I didn’t understand either what was happening with Orthodox Anon. Certainly was strange.

  439. It would take one really dumb shiksa to believe, or think others would believe, that goofy FLDS mail order bride tale.

  440. Granny, some people just seem bent on self destruction.

    My doubt is more about how the FLDS would have found her on the other side of the US and why they would be recruiting outside of their own. It seems that girls raised outside of polygamy have had trouble integrating and the child of a convert (Elissa) was responsible for putting Warren in prison.

    Also, the individual member of the FLDS cannot have a revelation about his own brides; that has to come from the Prophet, although I suspect that men sometimes suggest revelations on specific girls. There are Barlows in other groups and lots of people on the internet named Lindsay Barlow, most of them female.

  441. Statement of Randy Wilson on Emack from Truth Will Prevail site.

    The guy actually gets a little emotional at the end. I give him credit for caring about his client.

  442. And he’s coherent. I think he’s wrong, but hey. It is not like serving a warrant on the Mayor and then searching the whole town. Not unless the Mayor actually has title to the whole town as private property.

  443. Betty

    I agree he’s wrong and that he made a very poor analogy. I do give him credit for his handling of Michael Emack. He got a good plea while preserving his rights to appeal those issues they felt were important.

    That’s sometimes better and smarter lawyering than the smooth trial lawyer trying everything.

  444. It would take one really dumb shiksa to believe, or think others would believe, that goofy FLDS mail order bride tale.
    =========================================
    Agreed. Though it seems some have bought it. I took a quick glance at the attorney list. I’m happy I don’t have to pay their attorney bills. I guess they have no choice; either pay it or let other people walk all over them.

  445. “…either pay it or let other people walk all over them…”

    Or don’t take child brides.

    Or respond to civil lawsuits in real time instead of “answering them nothing”.

  446. AL

    Please please please!

    This gravy train of attorneys was caused by Warren and his Priesthoodlums walking all over innocent people.

    Look to the source, dont be such a fool.

    Like Warren and these bubbas are going to prison because they got walked on by the cops. Thats really rich, holmes!

  447. Yea Betty he is wrong, he says “they are not child molester’s” well DNA, their own records and CONVICTIONS prove they are child molesters!

  448. Or, alternatively, wait until the girls are of legal age. Always an option, you know. Just don’t commit the freaking crime, which Warren says in his own words was done deliberately to challenge the rule of law!

    And, Alin, I’m curious, how many outside convert females do you know of in the FLDS in…say….the last ten years?

  449. Ron

    Indeed I agree that Randy got Emack a smokin deal – since we can now agree that seven years is a lucky number, much better than, say, 33 years.

    And he ought to show emotion for his client…. errr his bill that hasnt been paid yet.

  450. Was kinda hoping he would go down 40andcantgetany’s list, Genocide! High School sex! Attempted murder! But we had to compare it with the MAJOR and an entire town?

    Thats no town, and they dont have no Mayor – its a kiddie sex commune with funky doodes wigging out the captive peeps.

  451. “I guess they have no choice”

    Nonsense.

    They chose to take actions that have resulted in criminal charges and civil lawsuits.

    Do you forget day-to-day, al, that you agree they broke the law with the child brides?

  452. Twist

    Al must have to jump start his reality every morning.

    Wonder if he thinks that heroin smugglers, burglars and Burger King robbers got walked on too when they were just minding their own business.

  453. No, I’ve thought about it and it just makes me mad, in fact, I’m getting mad at Ron about a lack of focus on the actual evil.

    IF you assume that the warrants were illegal, and thus the convictions are illegal, AND there was no real evidence of a crime, then I would feel sorry for a religious family man who had to go to jail for seven years. BUT, we all know for damn sure that he’s guilty as sin! There’s no question about whether or not the crime was commited. That attorney is getting all choked up about the inequity of jailing a child rapist!

    WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE? There is no religious right to have sex with a 15 year old!

  454. Not only do they have a choice in getting a lawyer rather than pleading to a crime for which there is ample evidence that they are guilty, but they have choices about what strategy to use. And I predict that many of the attorneys will NEVER get paid and most will get paid pennies on the dollar.

  455. Statement of Randy Wilson on Emack from Truth Will Prevail site.

    The guy actually gets a little emotional at the end. I give him credit for caring about his client.

    Ron in Houston said this on February 3, 2010 at 8:17 AM
    ***********************
    Randy Wilson got emotional because the gravy train stopped flowing. He certainly isn’t the compassionate person truthwillprevail or other flds would make him out to be. The guy defends perverts, has always defended perverts, and his track record is very bad. He loses most every case he defends.

  456. I noticed the new poll following this Discussion #25 thread. Does anyone know if Judge Beacham’s ruling is expected on next Friday or just a written ruling that will follow sometime?

  457. According to the Trib report and KSL Judge Beacham is supposed to rule THIS friday .

  458. Or respond to civil lawsuits in real time instead of “answering them nothing”.
    =========================================================
    Yep, they seem to be responding pretty good right now.

  459. I have no feel for how the judge will rule in this case. Seems to me it all hinges on whether or not the original report of the crime fits the requirements of the law, and that’s too picky a detail for my grasp of the Utah law.

  460. And, Alin, I’m curious, how many outside convert females do you know of in the FLDS in…say….the last ten years?
    =============================================
    None that I know of. How many do you know of?

  461. No, there are not. Answer them nothing was in reference to the UEP. Most of the filings so far from the FLDS side have been by people with no standing in the case. They are transparent attempts to delay and raise costs to the state. They are not a real response, mainly because they don’t HAVE a real response. If the state is allowed to do what is right, it will deed specific lots to the residents and that is DEFINITELY not in the interest of the leaders of the FLDS.

  462. The guy defends perverts, has always defended perverts, and his track record is very bad. He loses most every case he defends.
    ============================================================
    Now that is some funny stuff. I would expect any defense attorney to lose almost every case they defend. Presumably the defendant is not in court unless Law Enforcement has probable cause.

  463. If the state is allowed to do what is right, it will deed specific lots to the residents and that is DEFINITELY not in the interest of the leaders of the FLDS.
    ===============================================
    I’m not sure we want to go down that path. Grandparents deeded the property to the church and now you want to give the property to the grandchildren.

  464. Alinusara,

    Then why did you say this, earlier this morning:

    “Agreed. Though it seems some have bought it”

    If “some have bought it” then there are outside converts. Otherwise your statement above makes no sense or is an outright lie in the context of the conversation.

  465. They are already well down that path, Alinusara.

    First, there is not viable legal definition for this supposed “church”.

    Second, the trustees who were self professed leaders of this church, have been thrown out by the court for illegal activities and malfeasance.

    Third, the beneficiary class is defined by the whim of said trustees, so it is null and void.

    Fourth, the trust document and it’s predecessor are illegal because their purpose is to promote illegal activities.

    Given all that, the transfer from the grandparents to the church and back to the grandchildren sounds very reasonable to me. I really don’t believe that the FLDS leaders want a real time roll call on how many of their members are willing to deed their homes back to them at this point.

  466. Al,
    I thought that you were a Southern Baptist.
    How do you have such intimate knowledge of FLDS evangelization efforts?

  467. Alin: Agreed. Though it seems some have bought it. I took a quick glance at the attorney list. I’m happy I don’t have to pay their attorney bills. I guess they have no choice; either pay it or let other people walk all over them.
    ……………………………

    Or they could have chosen not to break the law, how’s that for a concept?

  468. I’m not sure we want to go down that path. Grandparents deeded the property to the church and now you want to give the property to the grandchildren.
    ……………………….

    Since “the church” decided to set itself up as a trust, it then needs to abide by laws pertaining to trusts. Apparently it did not.

    I know somebody who gave property to a community non-profit and then sued to take it back because the organization was not using the property according to the terms of the gift.

    “Now it’s ours and we can do anything we want with it” doesn’t fly.

  469. Al,
    I thought that you were a Southern Baptist.
    ……………………

    I am catching up on the previous episodes of “Big Love,” and just saw the one where Bill is confronted by a Baptist preacher – who got up in his face about Joseph Smith interpreting The Gospels to suit his own purpose.

    Speaking of “Big Love,” Brooke Adams is a fan and recently called out “Torn from the headlines” over the UEP trust storyline on the show.

    Too bad she didn’t call out “Torn from the headlines” on a young woman forced into a marriage she didn’t want.

  470. It is a tough picture – juxtapose that with Raymonds grinning behind the glass.
    ———-
    Raymond’s grin definitely sticks out. But I guess you gotta keep sweet and look happy, or else there might not be any wives waiting for you when you get out.

    I also noticed the kids (I assume they’re Raymond’s) in the picture and wondered what story they’re being told for why Father is in the slammer.

  471. If polygamous think ‘Gentiles’ should all watch.’Big Love’. Isn’t it only fair that ‘Gentiles’ insist that fundies watch,’The Bachelor’? Guess they wouldn’t want any of those young teens getting all dreamy eyed about falling in love with a Prince Charming, who’s willing to forsake all others. Just imagine the ‘EVIL’ that lurks from that ideal.

  472. I thought children and grandchildren would be the logical heirs on property onve owned by parents and grandparents, especially if the trust was found to not be valid for reasons stated by Betty.

  473. What church decided to become a trust??? Surely you don’t mean flds?
    The head honchos decided everything, the workers, didnt have a choice.
    And Alinusara, there is only ONE beneficiary in the trust,, the Prophet.
    Oh,, Im sure it sounded good on paper to the Flds memebers, you give us all your money and you will be taken care of till the day you die,,, but they possibly didn’t understand that at anytime,, this SOLE beneficary could decide on whim to kick your butt out,, and well, there ya go,, you have NO property, NO money, NO job, and the best part, NO FAMILY! thats what makes it illegal!

  474. UEP trust currently appears to have one sole beneficiary: Warren Jeffs. Correct?

  475. The whole sticking point is that the trust assets are in the UEPTrust ownership and not the FLDS Church. In order to divest the trust, empty the trust assets, the thought is to return ownership to individual beneficiaries or their rightful heirs. The FLDS Church can state that consecrated property does not get returned to gifters but they have no say in the UEPTrust, simply because they are not owners nor beneficiaries. The trust was created to create this very barrier legally that has caused all the ruckus. Forming the trust serves one purpose but defeats, by it’s very structure, the other purpose. Look at the struggles between the laity and Anglican Church on disposition of some church ownership disputes.

  476. Its kinda like,, okay the peons trust God for your needs, but Im prophet so give me all your money for my needs…

  477. I also noticed the kids (I assume they’re Raymond’s) in the picture and wondered what story they’re being told for why Father is in the slammer.
    ……………………

    Hopefully they are not being told it’s THEIR fault for not having enough faith.

  478. Granny Toad, I think there’s a problem in the use of the word beneficiary. I think that Warren Jeffs is who is named as recipient if the trust is dissolved. However “beneficiary” of a trust is anyone who benefits from the trust, and there is a section in there about money going to members for their just wants and needs.

  479. Your right Betty, there is a section of money going to members for just wants and needs, but as it turns out, members wants and needs are going without, becausae most of the money is going to leadership to pay attorneys, put money in Warrens prison account for his commissary needs.

  480. I’m getting mad at Ron about a lack of focus on the actual evil.

    Well, it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been accused of having a lack of focus. My question would be why you’d be upsetting yourself over it.

    He got 7 years. We could have an intense debate about whether that’s fair or just. I really don’t have much of an opinion. It is what it is.

    Randy Wilson got emotional because the gravy train stopped flowing. He certainly isn’t the compassionate person truthwillprevail or other flds would make him out to be. The guy defends perverts, has always defended perverts, and his track record is very bad. He loses most every case he defends.

    I really don’t know whether he’s compassionate or not. He had a pretty atypical emotional response that I chalk up to compassion. It could just as easily be that he’s off his meds.

    I don’t know if he’s a good or bad lawyer. I’d say the plea deal he worked out was pretty good given the circumstances.

    And yes, criminal lawyers sometimes represent perverts. I’m sure he also sometimes represents folks who are innocent also.

  481. True, DD, but at this point I think that’s coming from tithing and not from the UEP cause he doesn’t control it anymore.

  482. Ron,

    The guy was acting like his client was innocent and being unfairly screwed by the law and it sounded to me like you were agreeing with him. Hoping to get off on a technicality is just the business of law, but to tear up and say the guy is innocent is to say that sexual assault is trivial.

  483. Shurtleff just said that there should be an immediate settlement based on the UEP (wisan)’s plan.

  484. The guy was acting like his client was innocent and being unfairly screwed by the law and it sounded to me like you were agreeing with him. Hoping to get off on a technicality is just the business of law, but to tear up and say the guy is innocent is to say that sexual assault is trivial.

    I think the guy knows enough to know his client is what I call “factually guilty.” (Meaning he knows he has sex with a minor who was his plural wife.) He’s just making the argument that he shouldn’t be found legally guilty.

    What I got from the tear up was that he liked his client and felt he was a nice guy. I have no doubt he feels 7 years was too much. Does that mean he thinks it’s trivial? I have no earthly idea.

  485. HHG where did you hear that?

  486. Sadie,

    Associated Press story —
    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-utah-ag-demands-settlement-land-trust-dispute,0,7767169.story

  487. This whole mess is a systems issue.
    Identified Faults in the System :
    1) Fraudulent Teachings of Joseph Smith
    2) Fundamentalist Interpretations of Item 1, which apparently includes impregnating underage females and mandatory polygyny, as well as blind adherence/ obedience to tenets developed by corrupt authority figures within the sect
    3) Lack of an Educational Program to Inform fundamentalist community regarding risks for mother and fetus of pregnancy
    in developing underage females
    4) Lack of a Screening Program for Genetic Defects in Fundamentalist Communities which engage in inbreeding
    5) Insufficient Education or curtailing education of a significant number of fundamentalist youth, both male and female
    6) Lack of enforcement of current laws which prohibit polygamy, abandonment of teenage boys by parents, and underage marriage in the states of Utah and Arizona
    Suggested Remediation :
    a) minimal age for marriage should be at least 18
    b) all students to successfully complete high school
    c) mandatory state wide health / hygiene courses to be completed by all high school students which includes instruction on the hazards of inbreeding, genetic disorders resulting from inbreeding, teenage pregnancy, and a person’s right by law NOT to be compeled by anyone to have sexual relations if they don’t want to.(NO means NO)
    d) enforcement of laws already existent which prohibit underage marriage, plural marriage, and rape.
    e) free genetic testing to identify carrier status for fumarase deficiency and other genetic disorders

  488. Ben Winslow and KSL should get the credit for the story on the Shurtleff letter. AP picked it up from them.

  489. Geez…make that Fox 13 in Salt Lake City.

    From the video, the position of the AG’s office if a settlement is not reached within it month “it will get even uglier.”

    The disincorporation word has entered into the public dialog.

  490. Hopefully they are not being told it’s THEIR fault for not having enough faith.
    ———
    Maybe it’s just the usual:
    – we are all innocent lambs
    – evil gentiles hate our freedoms and are persecuting us
    – this is a test from God

  491. The main reason Allen is being prosecuted is because this follows the original case of Warren when he was first arrested for rape and an accessory to rape. Its just taken this long for the Gov. to bring in to court. I believe Allen was arrested the day after Warren was sentanced.

  492. Thanks for the clarification, Ron. That makes more sense.

  493. Great find Twist! But I think Shurtleff is talking to the hand.

  494. There’s no law that gives defense attorneys immunity from being sucked in by sociopaths. I’ve seen it happen repeatedly. Some of the brightest guys and gals I’ve had the pleasure to meet have been left stunned when they find out they’ve been had.

    I had a guy who was a very good person and a terrific PD break down in tears in my office. If they’re eliciting this much emotion from Mr. Wilson at this point, he best be very careful. They’ve found the buttons to push.

    I haven’t seen the clip you all are referring to, but I’d consider it pretty normal in the course of events.

  495. Ron,

    Running with this a bit, but at least Wilson hasnt gone as far as Parker and Willie and proclaimed outright lies, like no child brides etc etc.

    Parker is just Willie with “Attorney” stuck behind his name – a rather sad deal since the other Utah Attorneys Statewide even Shurtleff to have to say they are in the same association.

  496. Well I do KNOW randy wilson, have known him for yrs!

  497. Oh it looks like the list of FLDS Attorneys and various legal issues has been posted.

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/flds-legal-menu-2010-quite-the-buffet/

  498. hmm, Wawl,, who started a fire under Shurtleffs butt?

  499. DD

    I guess Wilson has enough brain cells not to lie in front of a camera. He had to follow through with his legal bunt and minimize the crime.

    But everyone knows better. Child molesters ARENT nice folks.

    They are child molesters for crying out loud! RSO for life, I dont care how “nice” you are.

  500. Well, you know DD, that if 90% of his clients are factually guilty he should ideally have close to a 90% “failure” rate. At least if the system is working the way it should.

    I don’t know if he’s a “good” or “bad” lawyer whatever that means. I think he cut a pretty good deal for his client given the circumstances.

  501. Did I hear that right on the Ben Winslow clip? Dis-incorporation?

    Wow.

  502. Miele,

    Yes, it happens to shrinks, too.

  503. Yeah, they need to disincorporate that place.

    Lord of the Flies.

  504. LOL, tongue in cheek again, maybe Shurtleff reads this blog and noticed that I listed him as Willie Jessop’s attorney and realized he is supposed to be working for the State of Utah not a criminal polygamist.

  505. LadySadie – impeccable timing – and yours got out first.

  506. But everyone knows better. Child molesters ARENT nice folks.

    Well, I suppose that depends on how one defines “nice.”

    I have represented a few over the years. One particular fellow was a very fine upstanding citizen in pretty much every area of his life other than one. I’d call some of his behaviors evil, but don’t know that I’d call him an “evil” person.

    He’d been abused in the past so I often did wonder if there was just some compulsion in him that he just couldn’t control.

  507. Weird that story isn’t on the Deseret News page or the Trib page,, seems Brooke is OFF the case,, lol

  508. Betty, not more than once.

  509. Is it just me or did anyone else think Ben Winslow was some old guy and was shocked when you saw him?

  510. Al,
    I thought that you were a Southern Baptist.
    ================================
    I am. Where did I lead you to believe otherwise?

  511. Yup that was Ben Winslow

  512. jazzviper,
    Allen Steed was charged with raping Elissa the day he testified to having had sex with her during the Sept. 2007 Utah trial of Warren Jeffs for rape as an accomplice.

  513. I thought he was older to Ron, till I saw a picture of him with Brooke Adams in Texas

  514. I thought children and grandchildren would be the logical heirs on property onve owned by parents and grandparents
    ——————————————-
    Not really. The logical heirs to property owned by parents and grandparents is whom the parents and grandparents deem it to be.

  515. Ron, guess I just don’t have any respect for Wilson because he defended a client who drove the car in a gang drive by shooting where a 4yr old little girl was murdered.
    Of course all three of the people were convicted in the childs death, but Wilson pretty much word for word used the exact same defense in Emack’s trial as he did in the murderer’s trial.

  516. Ron. Raises hand. I wonder why we thought that?

  517. alinusara, well we all know prophets came and went, although they tried to make innocent people believe they were immortal. So some of that property was given to other dead men prophets before they died. So, id say if the prophets they gave the properties are dead, and granddparents or parents are dead, Give the children living a chance to own their own property.

  518. But if the parents and grandparents deem it to be something that doesn’t exist as a legal entity then the state has to make it’s next best guess. Are you hard headed or what?

  519. To simplfy just for you alinusara, if someone’s grandparents donated their property to say Rulon Jeffs and Hes dead, then Id say the property is open for grabs

  520. I think it would be good to disincorporate the whole damn thing!

  521. DD

    I guess I’m trying to give you a little insight into the mind of a criminal defense attorney.

    The guy who drives a car where a murder occurs is factually guilty of driving the car. Whether he should be found legally guilty of murder is a fairly complex question.

  522. I wonder if Shurtleff has the power to disincorporate? Can he just file a suit for disincorporation? If he can, then why is he just using it as a threat and hasn’t already done it?

  523. Twist, you killed me with your look over here ——–> LOL.

    Actually, and it should be added to the spread sheet, it was:

    <——————————-Look over here. Here, was Rodney with que cards writing answers to the tough questions during the "We want our children" media appearances.

  524. No, I was shocked by the appearance of Ben Winslow also. I thought he was in his 60’s. Sure seems to know his stuff though.

  525. Alin,

    I think it’s the fact that you seem to know stuff about the FLDS as fact that few outside the FLDS would actually know. So either you are talking out of your nether regions, you have some source you never credit, or you are not who you say you are.

  526. Im wondering the same thing Ron,, cause the trust has been in State hands since 2005,, that’s a long time.

  527. Its for sure, something is going on we the general public don’t know anything about.

  528. “FLDS attorney Rod Parker told Fox 13 News they continue to negotiate in good faith and that Shurtleff’s letter was inconsistent with the spirit of the ongoing talks.”

    More than a lover’s quarrel I’d say.

  529. bull CRap,, what talks? Arizona isn’t negotiating and neither is the court.

  530. After reading posts about FLDS, there is more going on the we the public don’t know, appears Utah AG Shurtleff as suddenly turned on FLDS after seeming to buddy up with them. Here’s more from TV station report on demand “If your client has trouble with the fact that the proposal comes from the Special Fiduciary, then let’s call it my proposal.”

    From above statement it appears that Shurtleff, has suddenly taken the side of Wisan the special fiduciary. The threat to disincorporate Hildale, UT possibly tied with Arizona doing the same with Colorado City, AZ would remove the FLDS controlled police dept. take a major means of intimidation & control of local population.

    Here’s link to TV station report: http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-uep-land-fight-exclusive,0,2122699.story

  531. Anyone? Off the top of your heads, was it Steve Studdert that allegedly had some influence WRT Texas CPS doing a 180?

  532. Sounds to me like Shurtleff has done some research into the water rights situation and is now seeing the handwriting on the wall.

  533. Well, I suppose that depends on how one defines “nice.”

    I have represented a few over the years. One particular fellow was a very fine upstanding citizen in pretty much every area of his life other than one. I’d call some of his behaviors evil, but don’t know that I’d call him an “evil” person.

    He’d been abused in the past so I often did wonder if there was just some compulsion in him that he just couldn’t control.
    ————
    Well, yeah, I’m sure there are some mass murderers out there who were very nice to their mommas but I don’t see that as being in any way redemptive.

    Without getting too much into a conversation about what people can and can’t control (and my sympathies go out to any victim of abuse), I really think you can only call a pedophile a “nice” pedophile if they never act on it.

  534. I haven’t watched the video yet, but someone said disincorporation? if they did that how are you supposed to know which house to give to whom, and make sure nobody’s out on the street? sounds like there could be a lot of collateral damage, if it wasn’t handled right.

  535. yehaaa6, im sure families would be given the opportunity to buy the house or land they lived in. Disincorpation would just mean, no more trust, everyone would be responsible for their own lives, and bills, etch

  536. No, I think disincorporation of the township means that control of the TOWN would revert to the county. It has nothing directly to do with the UEP, although evidence of financial wrong doing certainly has the possibility of spilling over from one to the other. I think that’s the message Shurtleff is giving out and he is speaking quite clearly to a few key individuals that the jig is up.

  537. Y’all seem to forget that regardless of reports to the contrary Warren S. Jeffs remains the ‘Accomplished Accomplice’ in jail and :

    A.) Still head of the FLDS Church.

    B.) Still author of the ‘Answer Them Nothing’ manifesto.

    C.) Still ‘Sole Corporate’ of the UEPTrust.

    D.) Still awaiting trial on Federal flight charges while on the FBI Ten Most Wanted list, among other indictments.

    There is nothing new here to report on the criminal syndicate fully engaged in ‘Holy War’.

  538. Yehaaa

    Disincorporation of the Twin cities is a real issue, with Church control over Homeland Security funds, grants, etc, that have been consistently abused – its best to let the County run it.

    It would have absolutely no impact on UEP matters or residency, only important things like when you call 911, you would get REAL law enforcement and not Warrens hencemen on the other line.

    Heck, I’m sure someone could run a spreadsheet on Twin city incorporation abuses, that would be about as big as the FLDS Attorney spreadsheet.

    This is America, and the little theocracy experiment proved a dismal failure. Its best to let the adults take the wheel of the car again.

    Future abuses will only reflect on those in public office. Who would vote for politicians who allow child abuse to run rampant?

    I think those days in Utah are over. The pendulum has swung.

  539. From your fingertips to God’s ears, Stamp.

  540. I may have a hinto to a partial answer, about disincorporation. In Texas it may mean something entirely different.

    Last year I moved FROM a place that has a zip code and name on maps and taxing entity school district and Peace Justice district but has NEVER been incorporated as a town. Keeps taxes down. For instance no police dept or mayor or anything like that. County Sheriff and roads and the like, sure – COUNTY.

    So. If FLDS stopped paying taxes what, 5 years back, and UEP refuses to produce records to the state where the money’s going, then sure enough they’re bankrupt and can be disincorporated. That’s for starts.

  541. I described the bare bones of that. What it means in part is that FLDS can keep on soaking FLDS households for $ while not being bothered with the business of those little things, ALL the $ can go to support lawyers. Oh, and their FLDS royalty.

  542. Shurtleff is saying he will help them get it done, easy way out.

  543. well we all know the electric plant in the creek was a bust! funds were diverted to it, and then prices increased to the twin cities and people could no longer afford the bill, it was so high, then the plant went kaput. The two towns were incorporated to be able to recieve Federal funding, and we know what they did with all that money.

  544. And then there is water. Life as we know it, to us carbon-based life forms.

  545. Exactly, Attila. There is a name to my village, but it is not an incorporated town ship. It has a library and a post office.

    I have also lived in a township, and I had to pay personal property taxes to the town and the county and I don’t really see that I got anything extra out of it.

  546. Well normally the municipal services are what makes the taxes worthwhile for the townfolks. School district, fire department, city plan for growth, local based police, safety, health and disaster but parklands and community issues being redressed is needed to enhance the quality of life and attract the positive elements of growth.

  547. well, I don’t really have an opinion on the police department, but taking the fire department away would be a big, big mistake, IMO. they are the only department for miles around, and almost completely volunteer. if they switched to county, but kept the department in place, and started paying them, that would be even better, but the church leadership would probably have a problem with that. also, replacing the local cops with county officers, who nobody knows, would definitely be interesting. I think it would actually result in less calls, because no one would trust them.

  548. Yehaaa6,
    the problem that we outsiders see is that if you are not currently a Warren accepted FLDS member you can not get water hook up, you can not get the police to respond to vandalism, and you can not get electricity hook ups. Nor can subdivisions be surveyed. All at the direction of Warren which is definitely religious discrimination. So disincorporation of the towns would allow other administrators to handle those jobs in what would be a more religiously nuetral fasion.

  549. yehaaa

    Abuses like buying a private plane with School funds would cease.

    Sure, the FLDS have been caught and corrected on a lot of misbehavior. doesnt mean they are going to come around though, they’ve had forever adn to date seem worse than ever.

    AFAIK the fire department neednt change much. There are usually perks to be a volunteer.

    If Warren says you are rejected of God if you join the fire dept, I’m sure others will fill their shoes.

    Its time the FLDS smelled the coffee brewing in civilization.

  550. I can undrstand the mistrust of any new law enforement…but then again, it could be refreshing to have the ‘law’ enforced, rather than [what seems to be] church doctrine. CC/Hilldale are rather isolated and getting certified officers who want to relocate [maybe] and work there, could also be a problem. It’s a long drive from any nearby big city.
    And this I’ve wondered about…if the 2 cities are in 2 diffrerent states, how can they police both cities? Are they certified in both ststes?

  551. yes, the police officers are certified in both states. I guess the not getting utilities hookup thing is an issue, I don’t see why they should discriminate against that. I think part of the water deal is that the water supply there is at its limits, which would probably be an issue with the subdividing as well.

    I will say that if the cities were to be dis-incorporated, you’d hear some serious squealing about religious persecution, and people would not cooperate very well.

  552. AND…what ever happened to the plane? It seems to have disappeared..or am I wrong? I remember it being discussed..many discussions ago..but I don’t remember the outcome.

  553. Here is Shurtleff’s letter:
    http://www.fox13now.com/media/acrobat/2010-02/52017722.pdf

  554. The plane was auctioned off after the school district was taken into receivership by AZ AG Terry Goddard.

  555. yehaaa

    There is abundant evidence of religious persecution right there in River City Town hall.

    As you mentioned, the hookup issue, then there is the exing and misuse of the government entity in attempts to run a theocracy.

    The abuses are many, if the residents dont like getting disincorperated there is always Mexico I suppose, they can get away with stuff down there they SHOULDNT here.

    There has to be a limit to it somewhare dont you think?

    Warren found that out.

  556. A big problem with the water is that the Twin City Water Works was tithing HUGE amounts of money to the FLDS Bishop’s Storehouse.

    A big no no with money from a “public” utility.

  557. Power in the Creek was provided by Hildale/Colorado City Utilities until GarKane Energy took it over last summer.

    It has long been thought that the apostates were being gouged on power rates and mysterious $100 “deposits” that were tacked onto their bills alternating one month with the power bill and the next month on the water bill. This amounted to $1200 a year in “deposits”.

    Today, the word from the apostates is that their power bills have been cut in half with GarKane. Grumblings from the FLDS faithful is their bills have doubled.

    hmmmmm. Look what happens when everyone pays the same for KWH.

  558. Anon

    I hate to even think it, but I imagine the nefarious acts by alleged “Twinky Municipalities” would rival the FLDS Atty spreadsheet.

  559. I think part of the water deal is that the water supply there is at its limits, which would probably be an issue with the subdividing as well.
    ======================
    Ron Cooke is being given this as an excuse, but they turn around and approve utilities for four new triplexes (or six-plexes?).

  560. Seems like RICO act would apply. Do the Feds need to step in?

  561. Think how embarrassing this all is to Gubernatorial hopefuls.

  562. or presidential hopefuls.

  563. actually, the power cut in half because the power plant got shut down. FLDS people were paying deposits too, as far as I know.

    I think part of the water deal is that the water supply there is at its limits, which would probably be an issue with the subdividing as well.
    ======================
    Ron Cooke is being given this as an excuse, but they turn around and approve utilities for four new triplexes (or six-plexes?).

    you do have a point there. hell I dunno what people are thinking… I’m just a splashdown from a peon.

  564. Could be you’re a treasure, yehaa.

  565. Oh and what about the TCWW paying for the manager’s home improvements, his utility bills, registrations on his personal vehicles, cell phones for the his wives, etc.

    Wasn’t that Richard Allred who was doing that?

    Regardless, I don’t think it is legal to pay personal expenses with funds from a “public” utility company.

    Kind of what got the school district taken into receivership.

  566. Thanks for the link to the Shurtleff letter, anon 6:30.

    Interesting letter, to say the least.

  567. https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/shurtleff-gives-flds-last-best-chance/

  568. “Who’s My Daddy”

    LOL….

    http://fldsdressed.com/

    Hat tip goes here: http://usreligion.blogspot.com/2010/02/flds-cover-story-in-february-national.html

  569. Some people have no sense of humor.

  570. The t-shirts are good, very funny…

  571. still nothing at the 3rd court of appeals for raymond. many they are cutting it close.

  572. So, if the UEP feud is settled in 30 days the attorney spreadsheet should shrink considerably.

    But then again … there’s always more waiting in line in Texas.

    I don’t think I’ll delete any names right now; I’ll leave them there to perhaps shift around to another legal matter later.

    Excel-Anon

  573. Excel Anon,
    Saw your spreadsheet – awesome.
    I think it was well worth canceling your date.

  574. yehaaa6

    Volunteer fire department would stay there. Anything volunteer like that would stay.

  575. Guess we will have to wait 30 days to see ifthere is any movement on the settlement

  576. I might be wrong, but if Shortcreek reverts to unincorporated cities, the ruling bodies would be the commissioner’s court of each county.

    Now wouldn’t that be special…………

  577. i think the state can take over.

  578. Wouldn’t county be more likely?

  579. I would question the sanity of any girl that would willingly convert to flds…..but I doubt anybody actually would

  580. Yes, GrannyToad I think you have it right.

    Washington County would provide the services to Hildale and I guess Mohave County would provide services to Colorado City.

    I can just hear the screams from Washington County about this possibility. Can’t speak for Mohave County. They might pay for Washington County to cover their expenses.

    After all, there is the Grand Canyon in the way for Mohave County to respond.

    I would assume that Shurtleff considered these logistics before he wrote his letter to the FLDS attorneys.

    Whatever, the UEP battle has gone on 5 years. Enough already!

  581. There will be a Safety Net Committee meeting this Friday in Colorado City. Maybe some of these questions will be answered.

    The meeting is broadcast on Mark Shurtleff’s live webcast.

  582. Last year I moved FROM a place that has a zip code and name on maps and taxing entity school district and Peace Justice district but has NEVER been incorporated as a town. Keeps taxes down. For instance no police dept or mayor or anything like that. County Sheriff and roads and the like, sure – COUNTY.
    ………………………..

    Large chunks of (mostly rural) King County, Washington are unincorporated – which means they are under the county government. It does keep taxes down, as there is no city government to fund. However, that also means less local control.

  583. Local control is exactly what FLDS do not deserve, since the US Constitution is in such low esteem among them that they’d keep non-FLDS households from having water, power, medical care, even a place to bury their dead. That is hateful religious bigotry and against US laws.

  584. Granny Toad: I love these words that you wrote:

    “they’d keep non-FLDS households from having water, power, medical care, even a place to bury their dead. That is hateful religious bigotry..”

    And some of the flds apologists call us bigots! They are really calling black white and evil good.

  585. Considering what has been revealed about the Twin City Water Works and who some of the players have been, one has to wonder what evidence may exist of financial malfeasance that could have occured/be taking place in the municipalities.

    Keep in mind that if the towns are disincorporated, their portion of the relevant property taxes will go to the counties or to the state if either has provisions in their statutes.

    I made a cursory read of some of the Utah Municipal Code, but I have not come across statuatory provisions for disincorporation in the event of malfeasance. Other than the disincorporation methods fleshed out by Brooke Adams in her article, I don’t know what other tools Utah has in place to deal with public corruption if that is the case.

    The Shurtleff letter says he will go to the legislature for disincorporation if it is necessary.

    I just can’t see the FLDS giving in to settlement terms that would satisfy Shurtleff’s “request”. I may be wrong about that, but at any rate these aspects are going to be very interesting to watch.

  586. Shurtleff isn’t AG of the town in AZ, only UT. Washington County services are already being provided to Hildale I’d assume, whether they’re being paid or not. See services are provided on city, county, state levels on tax bills I’d assume, that’s how mine are. Where I moved from had local Volunteer Fire Dept, County EMS, for instance. Where I am now has city Fire and Police departments.

    We haven’t heard from Mohave Co or AZ’s AG yet but if one’s not been being paid, it’s unlikely the other has been butcha never know. FLDS could be playing favorites for some reason, like Berry Knoll … ?

  587. Twist

    Indeed – While Mark has humored, cajoled, even given them a boost onto their little pony, they wont follow his advice, only the guy cruising the CelloSteel Kingdom.

    At least he made one last good faith effort before dropping the hammer. Once the people of Shortcreek are legally made citizens of the US again, instead of being just Warrant’s Hildale Hostages, there will be a collective sigh of relief on all sides.

    Except for Warren, and who cares what he thinks? He is in prison anyway.

  588. I think you’d be surprised who cares what warren thinks. of course the church will probably spin this as “the evil people of the world want us to compromise, to take away our city charter” etc, etc. I can see some parallels to Nauvoo being drawn. it will be very interesting, to say the least.

  589. yehaaa6,

    I think the events that may transpire in the future will be interpreted as more evidence and confirmation that God has revealed to Warren that the redemption of Zion is proceeding as planned and therefore no compromise and no settlement.

    “Keep those cards and letters (tithes) coming and send more lawyers.”

  590. It’s amazing to think that at one time Nauvoo was a bigger city with a larger, economy than Chicago. Anyway. Hildale & Colratta City ain’t. They don’t pay their way, all take and no give. Time for grownups, are there any statesmen and/or women down at the crik?

  591. Interesting that the DesNews article seemed to be more critical of the flds position than the other stories. They also quoted Jensen of the UT AG office who was quite firm in his statements about the situation..

  592. Granny: It’s amazing to think that at one time Nauvoo was a bigger city with a larger, economy than Chicago
    ………………..

    It’s scary to realize that Joseph Smith wanted to be President of the United States. Can you imagine what that would have done to one of our most precious foundation blocks of freedom: separation of church and state.

  593. ohhhh yeah. But the only chance Joe had was all in that big empty space in his head.

  594. Twist: that’s pretty much what I’m saying. I, incidentally have never sent a postcard to Warren in prison, every time other people have, I just felt like, hell, what am I supposed to tell him? “sure sucks that you’re in prison, I’m praying for your release” lol. I just figured he’d gotten enough cards from everyone else.

    as far as statesmen, the only “politicians” we have are the town council and mayor, who the people are “recommended” to vote in.

  595. “Today, the word from the apostates is that their power bills have been cut in half with GarKane. Grumblings from the FLDS faithful is their bills have doubled.”

    I live here, and my power bill has stayed about the same, if not a little higher with Garkane. I just assumed it was because of all the maintainence and repair work that Garkane has to do since the Twin City company didn’t do squat to fix any problems. For example, my neighbor’s trees are growing profusely into my main power line, has been since I moved in. And nothing has been done about it.

  596. If Hildale, and/or CC are disincorporated – and if taxes aren’t being paid for the past what, 5 years, FLDS has already effectively disincorporate the towns by consequences of their actions, THEN there is no town council or mayor, there being no town.

    I really wonder if there are people who recognize the US and states UT and AZ, laws, and can speak for all people, in leadership positions. You can see that lawless, non-taxpaying crime families or white supremacy cult type groups just aren’t going to work out.

  597. In the winter you can expect power bills to be higher, if you have electric heat, and in the summer if you have electic AC. Fact is the power plant was broken and couldn’t be fixed. It was a waste of money from the day of conception.

  598. GrannyToad,
    There currently aren’t any Washington County services in Hildale. Everything is provided by the city.

    3 years ago, there was a WCSO Deputy stationed in Hildale. After the funding from the DOJ ended, he was reassigned to another area.

    There are MCSO deputies in Colorado City. And when they get the new county/state facility located in CC again (the local college refused to renew the lease for the trailer) there will be more state services in the community and the MCSO deputies will again have an office in town.

  599. little ex plig kid,
    I think you should contact GarKane and get them to check your meter. Maybe it is defective. Or get them to do something about the trees growing in your power line. Or both.

    Most apostates’ power bills have significantly decreased with power from GarKane.

  600. If you have any close neighbor you can look for yourself to learn if anyone else is hooked up to your electric bill.

  601. One simple way to get a clue is to shut off your power at your breaker box then go out to the meter to see if it’s still turning. Long ago, mine was, once.

  602. You can legally cut limbs on your side of the house…if they are over your fence line.

  603. GrannyToad,
    AZ AG Goddard is probably in agreement with dis-incorporation of Colorado City along with Hildale.

    Considering his recent court filing on the UEP, he is completely aware of the fraud being committed by public utility companies in the Twin Cities.

    Dis-incorporation is likely the only way to have honest utility companies which won’t be tithing public funds to the FLDS Bishop’s Storehouse and paying for the manager’s personal expenses.

    Then there are all of the civil rights violations against local citizens … “they’d keep non-FLDS households from having water, power, medical care, even a place to bury their dead. That is hateful religious bigotry” as you so beautifully put it.

    The FLDS needs to realize that is WRONG and they are committing fraud and discrimination. Public utility companies can’t do that. The AG’s have a right and an obligation IMHO to clean it up.

    Remember, it was the AZ AG who stepped in when fraud was discovered in the school district. Terry Goddard doesn’t mess around.

  604. So haha they only wanted law enfarcement that was beholden to and owned by FLDS aka Warren Jeffs eh, and that’s what ALL taxpayers got for their money?

    Are there ANY laws enforced at Short Crik at all?

  605. GrannyToad,
    I think the taxes are only delinquent for 2009. I don’t think it has been 5 years since they haven’t paid taxes.

  606. Are there ANY laws enforced at Short Crik at all?

    Pretty much only if the violation is committed by an apostate. The local cops like to nail them!

  607. Where do non-FLDS get medical attention, a drive to/from St George?

    Same for groceries? The wallyworld trip?

  608. Speaking of taxes, I wonder if they’re paid up out at Schleicher County, Texas.

  609. Are there ANY laws enforced at Short Crik at all?

    Pretty much only if the violation is committed by an apostate. The local cops like to nail them!
    ———————————–

    they also enjoy enforcing curfew and underaged drinking laws on the young people.

  610. If you know any medical facility denying emergency medical care then by all means report them.

  611. yadayadyad A-LI-N-sack-o-sh**, your standard refrain is getting real old try something new.

  612. FRED alert. Someone page Fred.

  613. I think the taxes are paid in Texas but I’m not absolutely 100% certain.

  614. dang yehaaa6, you’d better exit now before warren realizes he hasn’t gotten any fan mail from you while in the cellosteel kingdom. he’s liable to go ape sh*t when he finally figures it out.

  615. i’ve done my daily check and still no appeal filed on behalf of raymond at the 3rd court of appeals.

  616. PT – When’s the cut off date?

  617. 90 days from date of sentence is up feb 8.

  618. Hmm? LadieSadie? I get called a name by encouraging people to obey the law and report a private medical facility for not providing emergency medical care?

  619. Thanks ProudTexan:

    “How long does an appeal take?
    The time varies greatly. An appeal may take from about 8 or 9 months to several years depending on the complexity of the case and the particular court or courts to which the appeal is taken.”

    http://faqs.egmlaw.com/appeals.html

    My guess is about 3 years.

  620. Alinusura said:

    If you know any medical facility denying emergency medical care then by all means report them.

    I do know that the Hildale Birthing Center is afforded to FLDS only, as they are locked behind a video monitored gate, allowing only the “elect” to go through. Also Hildale Health Clinic Annex, located in the center of town, is very unfriendly to Centennial Park people and other appostates. They have refused medical care many times. And when these people are allowed in for an emergency, they are made to wait in a back waiting room as to not influence the “elect”

  621. Refusal of a health care professional to provide emergency medical care is a violation of the anti dumping statutes of EMTALA – this is punishable by fines and possible imprisonment.
    Little Ex Plig Kid, report them.

  622. Hey Fred,
    Your lunch break is over.
    Back to work.

  623. If you’d remove your head from your nether regions (rectalcranial inversion) and quit your asinine taunting of us decent folk you’d learn a lot, Alin.

  624. Refusal of a health care professional to provide emergency medical care is a violation of the anti dumping statutes of EMTALA – this is punishable by fines and possible imprisonment.
    Little Ex Plig Kid, report them.

    I have.

  625. Where do you have to report them for it to matter, LEPK?

  626. Those baptists in Haiti sure look very Utahn.

  627. CW, I don’t know if Fred’s around but I have his proxy!

    FU Alin,
    Love Fred

  628. Jim are you covering for Fred while he’s on a date? Is he running for President of the US or anything?

  629. I reported it to Gary Engels. It probably went into his report. Anyway, I know of an appostate family who has a case against them for refusal to treat their son, who had a bad case of pnumonia. They kept saying that they weren’t taking any new patients, but that was an emergency case. They said that they could take them to DRMC in the ambulance. The family went, but their son was very ill when they got to the hospital.

  630. GrannyToad, I asked a question up string no one answered, February 3, 2110 @ 3:43.

    Re: Shirtless, I wondered if it could a little bit of ‘wag the dog.’

  631. lepk, Do they accept Medicaid/Medicare?

  632. cajIM. FUing by proxy. LOL.

  633. lepk: For future reference:

    Center for Medicare Services
    Richard Bolling Federal Building
    601 E. 12th St., Room 235
    Kansas City, MO 64106-2808
    816-426-5233
    fax 816-426-3548

    Region VIII: Denver Regional Office
    States served: Colorado, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Utah, Wyoming

    Health Standards & Quality
    Center for Medicare Services
    1600 Broadway, Suite 700
    Denver, CO 80202
    303-844-2111
    fax 303-844-6374

    Region IX: San Francisco Regional Office
    States and territories served: American Samoa, Arizona, California, Commonwealth of Northern Marianas Islands, Guam, Hawaii, Nevada

    Health Standards & Quality
    Center for Medicare Services
    90 7th Street, Suite 5-300 SW
    Phone: 415-744-3501
    Fax: 415-744-3517

  634. Miele I’ll wait to find out about medicaid/medicare but I betcha they suck heavily on those two teats.

    I didn’t see that question and don’t see it now, I don’t know what to make of it.

  635. No Granny, Fred said, like Martin Luther King,”I may not get there with you but I HAVE A DREAM”.

  636. Here, GrannyToad, I brought it down:

    Anyone? Off the top of your heads, was it Steve Studdert that allegedly had some influence WRT Texas CPS doing a 180?

    Miele said this on February 3, 2010 at 3:43 PM

    ——————————–

    There was some talk here during the discussion of CPS’s actions.
    There were two attorneys that were brought into the situation and both publicly stated they had been told in so many words – to back off. Their statements were in the papers.

    At that time there was some speculation that a person with a great deal of influence, possibly above the level of the State of Texas, might allegedly, possibly have told Texas CPS to back off.

    Someone on here came up with a name. I wondered if anyone could remember it.

  637. I don’t really know the circumstance or much of the man, other than that he’s mormon and advisor to 3 or more US Presidents over decades, does that sound like the same guy? I don’t know the implication. Why would a mormon rank?

  638. If you know any medical facility denying emergency medical care then by all means report them.

    Alinusara10 said this on February 4, 2010 at 1:07 PM

    The Hildale Clinic denied service to an apostate family about a year or so ago.

    It HAS been reported and is being looked into as religious discrimination. Since the Hildale Clinic accepts Medicaid and Medicare money (federal funding), they can’t legally refuse to treat someone because of religious discrimination because they AREN’T private.

    Maybe the administrative staff at the Hildale Clinic will get a cellosteel close to the manager of the TCWW.

    And Alinusara10 FU,
    Love Fred

  639. GrannyToad.
    There is a small clinic in Centennial Park. There is a midwife there, but the services are limited. It might not be the best choice in a serious emergency.

  640. My error. The Texas attorneys I was referring to were Charles Childress and Jeff Schmidt. When they were overruled by DFPS, back on discussion 4 someone intimated there might have been alleged interference by a guy call Leavitt who was associated with the Bush administration. (Causing DFPS/CPS to do a 180.

    Someone associated with prospective parents called my attention to this:

    http://dontadopthaiti.blogspot.com/2010/01/political-armtwisting-in-port-au-prince.html

    Pretty questionable, but not at all the same guy. My apology for a thread that goes nowhere. I’m still wondering why Shurtleff would come out with such a radical change in his actions.

    I was looking around for some sort of political cause.
    Again, my apology.

  641. I give you all permission to say FU by proxy to Alinusara10

    Good job cajIM for covering for me while I was away.

    Maybe even Alinusara10 will tell himself to FOff just like Miele sues herself.

  642. And Miele makes sure to answer them NOTHING.

  643. Someone on here came up with a name. I wondered if anyone could remember it.

    Miele said this on February 4, 2010 at 5:23 PM

    The name was Michael Leavitt who was head of the US Dept. of Health and Human Services.

    Leavitt was the Governor of Utah before George W. Bush appointed to head up the HHS.

  644. Leavitt sucks!!!

  645. Boy,
    As I read through the posts, I didn’t realize I was missed so much. I still need to have a life, so as cajIM said BELIEVE IN MY DREAM.

    FU by proxy any time you need to. Maybe Alinusara10 will see what a twit he is being and stop posting such asinine comments.

    That is my DREAM!

    Fred

  646. I’m still wondering why Shurtleff would come out with such a radical change in his actions.

    I was looking around for some sort of political cause.
    Again, my apology.

    Miele said this on February 4, 2010 at 7:20 PM

    I think Shurtleff finally saw the situation in the Twin Cities for what it really is – religious discrimination, civil rights violations and fraud.

    I don’t think it has ANYTHING to do with politics.

    It is just an Attorney General finally doing his job.

  647. Little Ex Plig Kid,
    It may not be sufficient to inform an investigator.
    Call the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services directly.
    That clinic most certainly receives Federal money from Medicare
    and Medicaid, and Medicare money was spent to educate their doctors.
    Call CMS directly please to make your complaint.

  648. I think I will “channel” Fred right now :
    Alinusara10 :
    FU

  649. Tomorrow I’m suing my self as A/K/A Meinusa area 51. I’m tired, so it may take me a while to answer myself nothing.

  650. At 9 AM Mountain Time, the Safety Net Committee will be meeting in Colorado City. No doubt there will be discussion about Shurtleff’s letter. You can watch it live here:
    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/utah-attorney-general

    I posted this Tuesday, but it is a good primer for you if you watch the live stream of the SNC starting in 1 hour. From the December 2009 minutes of the Utah/Arizona Safety Net Committee. The SN used in the minutes stands for the Safety Net.

    Review of SN Goals for the New Year

    There was some discussion concerning the SN taking on the goal of decriminalizing polygamy. Some felt this is a role the SN should take. One member sees this as a woman’s rights issue. It was stated that a woman might stay in an abuse marriage for fear of prosecution. It was also stated that women have a right to protect their children and cannot always do this with fear of prosecution. Pat stated that the SN cannot take on the role of decriminalizing polygamy as the role of the SN is to ensure safety for all individuals affiliated with polygamy. There was some discussion about the SN maintain neutrality. Some members felt that other members of the SN had involvement in the Texas Raid. One SN member stated that they had involvement in the raid as a consultant on how to act in the best interest of the children. It was asked the assumptions not be made concerning consulting on the raid. There was some acknowledgement that the raid was note conducted perfectly; that the problems seen would have resulted in any large group with child welfare concerns. Some frustration was expressed the SN has had political involvement in the past; that they were involved in the emancipation bill, but that they will not take on the issue of decriminalization. Pat stressed the importance of maintaining neutrality and safety for all. She stated that individuals are open to pursue these interests on their own.

  651. Miele said: “Tomorrow I’m suing my self as A/K/A Meinusa area 51. I’m tired, so it may take me a while to answer myself nothing.”

    Awesome. Can I be your spokes-blowhard?

    I’ll claim religious persecution when asked any question, including ‘what time is it?’

    *please note that if placed under oath, I will claim only to be spokes-blowhard for myself. (but I will cross my fingers, so it should be OK)

  652. Do you ever wonder if the FLDS (and even the LDS on a regular basis) feel shame at how they’ve brought ridicule and mocking to their God by the rest of the world? I mean, “God” in the Judeo/Christian template is supposed to be a firm, but loving, and endlessly truthful being — and all “He” can come up with to worship “Him” is a lot of abusive, lying, cheating, self-serving wimps who whine persecution at every turn? (No offense, Chemist, but it happens constantly within the LDS too — although I’m not trying to generalize about ALL LDS or FLDS — just the ones most often in the public view.)

  653. TexasMom – LMAO at your “cross my fingers”

  654. Rebeckah: Do you ever wonder if the FLDS (and even the LDS on a regular basis) feel shame at how they’ve brought ridicule and mocking to their God by the rest of the world? I mean, “God” in the Judeo/Christian template is supposed to be a firm, but loving, and endlessly truthful being — and all “He” can come up with to worship “Him” is a lot of abusive, lying, cheating, self-serving wimps who whine persecution at every turn?
    …………………….

    To be fair, in the last 2,000 years many people and groups have behaved shamelessly in the name of God. Catholics, Protestants, Muslims – all have claimed to be His only true followers, and fanatics in those faiths have tortured, oppressed and murdered those who oppose them.

  655. PS: and I don’t think the FLDS has brought shame and mockery to God, they’ve only brought it to themselves.

    False religions are not a result of divine error, they are the product of human error.

  656. Al-in is pretty much a troll, but he does sometimes ask very valid rhetorical points that I think folks need to consider.

    Still, it doesn’t change the fact that he’s mostly annoying.

  657. False religions are not a result of divine error, they are the product of human error.

    Yeah, and every other religious system ever developed by humanity must be false and yours must be right?

    Thor, Loki, Set and all those are just silly superstitions but Yahweh or Jehovah must be real?

    Not to start the whole religious discussion again, but the concept that God only started one “true” religion and everything else is false seems more than a little absurd.

  658. Anonymous @ 9:10 do you know who the FLDS man at the Safety Net meeting is?

  659. First name is Lawrence

  660. Judge Shumates Court Feburary 9th
    STATUS CONFERENCE 070500105 Miscellaneous
    WISAN, BRUCE R ATTY: SHIELDS, JEFFREY L
    VS.
    HILDALE CITY ATTY: CHAMBERLAIN, RICHARD K
    TWIN CITY WATER AUTHORITY STIRBA, PETER
    SHIRTS, RUSSELL BELNAP, BROCK R

  661. Well there seems to be another FLDS man out of camera view there also, whine, whine, whine, is that all them FLDS men know how to do?

  662. Apparently the whiner FLDS mans first name is Mark.

  663. Is Shurtleff at this meeting? And who are all the peo ple there, anyone know?

  664. whine, whine, whine, is that all them FLDS men know how to do?

    No, they learn to make delicious cheese to go along with their whine.

  665. Well there seems to be another FLDS man out of camera view there also, whine, whine, whine, is that all them FLDS men know how to do?
    ============================================================
    Really? I thought people was getting annoyed because it’s women doing all the talking?

  666. Anon E Mouse, even Hindus. I laugh out loud every time I hear the term “radical, violent Hindus”, but in reality, it’s no laughing matter.

  667. Hardly. I think Lawrence and Mark are creating their own propaganda. Imagine how the impact such stories have on their children. Very sad.

  668. Don’t ya know A-LI-N-sack-o, this is a “meeting” where some decisions might be made, the FLDS men aren’t going to allow their “women” there for that, just the whiny so called “men”.

  669. whose the bald guy at the computer?

  670. He is from the Utah Attorney General’s office.

  671. I see no one wore RED today, it American Heart Association month, and everyone was supposed to wear RED today, lol

  672. Thanks LadySadie

  673. Is Brookie there?

  674. I think the bald guy at the computer from the Utah Attorney General’s office is Paul Murphy.

  675. They certainly aren’t underfed lol

  676. Seems most at the this meeting are centinnel park folks

  677. The FLDS man is Lawrence Barlow.

    The whiner is Mark Timpson from CPAC – Centennial Park Action Committee. He always whines.

    There are probably 5 or 6 CP members there.

  678. Yes, there are five or six women who consistently attend. They are part of an organization called Centennial Park Action Committee (CPAC). They concentrate their efforts on trying to make polygamy seem like a perfectly innocent and moral lifestyle.

  679. I also noticed someone brought thier baby to the meeting, geez

  680. I think the bald guy at the computer from the Utah Attorney General’s office is Paul Murphy.

    Correct

  681. Paul Murpy has been attending these meetings since the inception of the Safety Committee meetings. He’s a nice enough guy. I give him credit for having so much patience.

  682. The meeting is being held in Colorado City, so Brooke is not there. She is probably watching the web cast and will write about the unfairness of the “takeover ultimatum” and racial profiling tomorrow. Maybe she will even use quotes from Lawrence and Mark.

  683. Somethings off with my streaming. I thought I just heard on of the women in black say, “Isn’t the problem with religion big turkey’s? Maybe we can get help from the Catholics?”

  684. deputydog1,
    what time is that Wisan hearing on the 9th?

  685. My speakers on my computer arent that goodk but I did hear Markely say maybe Brooke Adams could report on the meeting

  686. 10:00am I thnik anonymous

  687. I think Lawrence and Mark are creating their own propaganda. Imagine how the impact such stories have on their children. Very sad.

    nearthecreek said this on February 5, 2010 at 11:22 AM

    But, there needs to be more to teach their children to hate outsiders besides the 1953 raid and the 2008 raid.

  688. Somethings off with my streaming. I thought I just heard on of the women in black say, “Isn’t the problem with religion big turkey’s? Maybe we can get help from the Catholics?”

    Miele said this on February 5, 2010 at 11:49 AM

    Miele, I didn’t hear anything like that. Maybe it was all garbled for you.

  689. Big turkeys are indeed a problem. Hard to get it all done without some parts getting too dry. I suggest brining it and then putting it in the smoker for 12-16 hours, myself.

  690. grrr I hate I cant hear when they talk low

  691. deputydog1,
    Most of the people are from various social service agencies from Arizona. CPS (several), Dept of Disabilities, etc.

    Utah has Job Corps and Dept of Workforce Services there.

    They introduced themselves at the beginning. It will still be available on that web site after the meeting ends. You can replay the first part and hear them introduce themselves.

  692. thanks anonymous

  693. That story by Lawrence about his friend in California who is serving in Afghanistan was so ironic.

    What was that they were passing around from Lawrence just now?

  694. #

    Big turkeys are indeed a problem. Hard to get it all done without some parts getting too dry. I suggest brining it and then putting it in the smoker for 12-16 hours, myself.

    Betty said this on February 5, 2010 at 12:08 PM

    OMG, I’m going to wet my pants I’m laughing so hard.

  695. They are handing out a flyer on an upcoming conference for fundamentalist youth

  696. thanks Anonymous

  697. I think it’s weird that the AAG would have his laptop open like that, given the camera is right behind him.

  698. yeah,, cultural awareness, DUH!! Like no one know??

  699. Did anyone make comment to the meeting on the site?

  700. ooo a scribe at each table.

    LadySadie, can you make the June 17th date?

  701. #

    I think it’s weird that the AAG would have his laptop open like that, given the camera is right behind him.

    nearthecreek said this on February 5, 2010 at 12:18 PM

    I hope he doesn’t go to any porn sites.

  702. deputydog1 you’d be surprised about how many people in the surrounding communities don’t know much about fundamentalist mormom culture – let alone the about potential for systematic abuse that is often inherent in polygamous communities.

  703. deputydog1 you can comment if you want to. There is a text box a little below the screen.

  704. The meeting is being held in Colorado City, so Brooke is not there. She is probably watching the web cast and will write about the unfairness of the “takeover ultimatum” and racial profiling tomorrow.
    ——–
    Rosacea is a race now?

  705. nearthecreek,, I figured by now most the US knew about Flds culture

  706. Interesting idea Anonymous. Maybe we should all post. I think I’ll take some time to think about it first.

  707. I wonder how much this June program is going to cost? Filming it. Karaoke. That stuff costs money.

  708. nearthecreek they were passing around a flyer about some “conference” they are going to have in St. George next month. Lawrence has made up a color flyer for it.

  709. Actually Anonymous, I probably could make the June 17th date, LOL. School is out then, now will the give me CEU’s as an out of state educator?

  710. daummmmmmmm those two guys talk alot!!! and say nothing

  711. Dang these meetings last a long time.

  712. Okay,, they need to move on, lol

  713. train them for what?

  714. CPAC trained as NARDA? Fox in the hen house!

  715. Okay,, they need to move on, lol

    deputydog1 they heard you.

    He just said Let’s move forward – yeah!

  716. gentile mixer??? LOL is that what lawrence said?? ROFL

  717. LadySadie they are offering CEU credits for the day seminar on June 17th.

    The meeting will end in 15 minutes. Hang in there.

  718. Yeah LadySadie yu can go to the gentile mixer!!! hahahah

  719. Is there some, any, any possibility at all, that FLDS would attend classes on cultural awareness of mainstream american culture?

  720. I don’t see it granny, do you?

  721. O never mind, they’d just find more ways to take advantage of us.

  722. 30-40 members of the community were trained in facilitating meetings is what I think their talking about.

    NARVA or something like that.

  723. Maybe Paul Murphy was reading this blog on his laptop.

  724. lol

  725. Is there some, any, any possibility at all, that FLDS would attend classes on cultural awareness of mainstream american culture?
    ====================================================
    Probably not.

  726. Well I hope you all enjoyed your Safety Net Committee experience and Gentile Mixer!

  727. LOL Anonymous

  728. Is it over? I heard the woman-without-baby-in-black say:

    “10 Point eye exam and say, “Hey!”

    “Please help us, and you will be…gravy.”

    (I’m suspecting this may be the work of children of the corn setting up my computer. The little tricksters.)

  729. Turkey and gravy?

    Dang, I missed all of the fun.

  730. I dont know if I am coming or going, but looks like I’ve been there.

    How the h&ll did I get to be gravy? I already know who the turkeys are. Let’s do it like this. I do not like beer but I do make darned good beer gravy.

  731. Twist, you can catch it on reruns as soon as they get the video loaded on the Net.

  732. Gentile mixer: Kitchenaid’s new anniversary edition in ‘Cherry Red.’

  733. Well if all their meetings are like that one, its pretty damn boring

  734. Thanks, anon 1:19. I’ll give it a listen later.

  735. any report from the judge on the allan steed case?

  736. “Really? I thought people was getting annoyed because it’s women doing all the talking?”

    Sigh, as Al knows, the women get to do most of the media spin, with trembling lips and tragic faces (but not for the family they left behind to get to the YFZ ranch, only for their special, precious children who were good enough to build “Zion”) but every time a man from the FLDS DOES speak he’s whining about persecution. Every friggin’ time. Are there no MEN in the FLDS? If it weren’t for the Fumerase issue I’d wonder if the women were visiting sperm banks to conceive.

  737. Anybody heard anything about the Allen Steed ruling?

  738. but every time a man from the FLDS DOES speak he’s whining about persecution. Every friggin’ time.

    Rebeckah,
    Did you watch the Safety Net Committee meeting? Did you hear Mark whining about persecution and profiling by the sheriff deputy who stopped him for speeding?

    The FLDS men aren’t the only ones whining about persecution – the Centennial Parkers do it too.

    Maybe that’s because they’re all cut from the same cloth.

  739. Anonymous 4:24, I think the whining is a basic outcome when you have a religion founded by a liar and whiner. I wonder if they think Elohim gives them brownie points for whoever whines most.

    “Verily, verily, I say unto thee; except that thou be persecuteth or feel persecuteth or thinkest that thou art persecuteth then nowise shalt thou enter into the great playboy mansion in the sky.”

    I’m sure that’s one of those lost or “miss-translated” portions of the Bible — or perhaps it’s one of those revelations Joseph didn’t live long enough to write down. 😉

  740. Maybe he should take those little decals down from the back window of his SUV. You know, the ones that show a man and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman and 32 kids and no dogs.

  741. Betty,
    He might have a dog, but the rear window of the SUV just isn’t big enough to hold the decal with 4 wives and 32 children.

  742. I’m easily amused today.

  743. Early happy hour?

  744. i really want to see the decal for 60 wives and 150+ kids.

  745. Cabin fever.

  746. …also, on the East Coast, it’s not that early.

  747. ProudTexan that size decal will take the windshield of a 747.

  748. I’m getting Spring fever! Tulips and daffodils are starting to peep out. Good stuff!

  749. tulips and daffodils…I wish.
    anticipating snowfall shortly

  750. Sleet here. If you don’t hear from me for several days it’s probably because my power we

  751. it was really pretty here today, lots of sunshine.

  752. OK anon – we can paste it on his cellosteel kingdom wall.

  753. I guess she meant to add on the end a “nt out”

    Betty … are you there?

  754. Betty and catwhisperer,
    Just consider it the last of the “snuggling” weather and make the best of it.

  755. Miele: “Gentile mixer: Kitchenaid’s new anniversary edition in ‘Cherry Red.’”

    Funniest thing I’ve heard all day. Thanks for the 🙂

  756. You are all treasures, each and every last one of yas!

  757. you are too granny!!!

  758. Excel Anon,
    Is that you at 8:35 pm ?
    trying to make the best of it here..thanks for the advice…good night…

  759. Please go to Open Discussion #26

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