Open Discussion #22

Continued from Open Discussion #21

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on January 3, 2010.

628 Responses to “Open Discussion #22”

  1. Oh, and what’s happening when legal-wise again? Does Raymond have an appeal coming up or something? Is jury selection for the next man who sexually assaulted a child starting soon? I’ve lost track over the holidays.
    Rebeckah said this on January 3, 2010 at 10:24 AM

    On Jan. 7 it’s a double-header in the Schleicher County courtroom: 1. hearing on Raymond Jessop motion for a new trial; 2. pre-trial hearing for the Emack case.

  2. As I recall Raymond has a motion for a new trial Jan 7th and its also going to be the same day as Emack’s pretrial hearing.

    A twofer.

    I look forward to seeing whatever excuse Raymond has for begging a new trial, my money says its frivolous and will be denied, and this will also be the basis of his appeal, as they seem to want to spend all their money till their attorneys cry fowl from not being paid.

    When their money runs out I would wager the legal bills will be in the millions.

  3. “And yes we can drop the Global Warming discussion, as we all know Willie Jessop is the main cause of Hot Air anyway.”

    Hahahahahaha! Thanks for my morning laugh, Admin! Are you sure that isn’t religious persecution, though? 😆

  4. It just occured to me that many people don’t ‘trust’ lawyers and yet the FLDS who don’t trust people much…seem to trust lawyers.
    hmmmm

  5. You can tell you are a Polygamist when….

    1. You grow little girls for bartering, but you have a moral objection to beer.

    2. You own a $3,000 machine gun and a Ford F350, but you can’t afford $100 a month rent.

    3.. You have more wives than teeth.

    4. You wipe your butt with your bare hand, but consider fast food “unclean.”

    5. You think wives come in two styles: ripe and unripe.

    6. You can’t think of anyone you haven’t declared destructions against.

    7. You consider television dangerous, but routinely declare the apocolypse is upon you.

    8. You were amazed to discover that cell phones have uses other than alerting your Prophet of an impending raid.

    9. You have nothing against women and think every man should own at least three.

    10. You’ve always had a crush on your neighbor’s goat.

  6. Jondana

    Well, some attorneys by nature of our laws, are needed to defend even the most indefensible of society.

    Of course, every profession has its good and bad actors.

    I mean, who would have thought Golf would hit a popularity peak, only to implode upon the news that its star player majored in infidelity?

    Last time he was out on medical leave ratings dropped 50%. Guess he wanted to sample this fancy polygamy gig a bit.

    OOOPS didnt work out well for him. Firt wife grabbed a nine iron.

  7. 6. You can’t think of anyone you haven’t declared destructions against.

    LOL…funny stuff and that one is my favorite.

  8. I would like to direct people’s attention to a social researcher/historian named Gerda Lerner who has done some incredibly interesting research into the historical rise of patriarchy in society and its impact on us as a society. Here are two links to two interviews she did on her books; The Creation of Patriarchy and The Creation of the Feminine Consciousness. I’m going to have to get me a copy of both.

  9. Thanks, Connie and Stamp, for answering my question. I’ve been so busy lately that I’m having trouble remembering what my name is. 😀

  10. Ooops, the links:

    http://www.intuition.org/txt/lerner1.htm

    http://www.intuition.org/txt/lerner2.htm

    I don’t know if they’ll link or if you have to copy and paste, though.

  11. Twist

    Those are from “You can tell you are Taliban if..”

    With a few minor changes.

    Amazing similarities.

  12. Connie, I heard the hearings were going to be in San Angelo on the 7th.

  13. I’ve half a notion to show up on the 7th for Willie’s first 2010 Wind Festival.

    Besides I’m curious too, what will Keate come up with.

  14. Stamp you left out, :

    11. Consider all of your charges as “victimless” because your brand of Justice even victimizes the victim(s).
    12. Your wife has birthed more children while reassigned than she had with you.

  15. Warren Jeffs

    Occupation – Polygamist

    wives – 87

    Children – 124

    Looking for that perfect match made in heaven

  16. “When the FLDS began trying to participate in the litigation, the trust was already in debt to Wisan and those lawyers, a million and a half dollars,” said Parker. “Now he wants to sell our farms and dairies in order to pay himself.”

    OUR farms and dairies Rod???? When did you become a member of the FLDS instead of just they’re lawyer?

    Read the article here and see the video:
    http://connect2utah.com/content/fulltext/?cid=69152

  17. For a comedian, Rod Parker’s is about the dryest wit I’ve run across. Was that supposed to be funny?

  18. interesting report anonymous. wonder how many wives parker has.

  19. i nearly fell out of my chair while watching the p-harmony utube video. “the first wife is free, a $50 value”

  20. As far as I know they fall far short. For evidence I would point to the blatant misspellings of even simple words by FLDS supporter postings.
    ————————————————————
    Hehe! Later on we find this within the same post:

    “I just like to point them out so newcomers aren’t decieved by your pose”

    ===================================================
    Umm Rebeckah??

  21. The tragedy is how many highly intelligent kids where forced to enter the labor force or got married off to have babies, instead of
    pursuing their dreams of more education.
    ==================================================
    What if their dreams are to enter the labor force and to have children? Your dreams of more education is not necessarily the same as theirs.

    …many highly intelligent kids where forced…
    ==============================================
    Oh btw. One of those icky grammatical errors Rebeckah goes on and on about.

  22. And it’s not like Parker didn’t get paid himself out of the sale proceeds from the Apple Valley properties.

  23. From the connect2utah article:

    “Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard is seeking to investigate the conduct of city governments, and the trust is encouraging Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff to join the effort.”

  24. How about having a choice to pursue their dreams, whatever they may be?

    That free agency thing.

  25. How about having a choice to pursue their dreams, whatever they may be?

    That free agency thing.
    ============================================
    Nothing wrong with that. With scholarships, grants, and student loans any enterprising student can get themselves through school if that is their dream.

  26. ““I just like to point them out so newcomers aren’t decieved by your pose”

    ===================================================
    Umm Rebeckah??”

    Yep, you caught a typo. Good for you.

  27. “Oh btw. One of those icky grammatical errors Rebeckah goes on and on about.”

    Do I? I really go on and on about grammatical errors? Where and when, pray tell?

  28. the kids who are in the flds religion should have the right to an education, but they don’t and for the most part aren’t allowed to. they are allowed to become laborers who bring in money or wives who have babies.

  29. Proud, you’re probably right. I thought the hearings were in Eldorado, but San Angelo makes more sense.

  30. alin would have us believe that all of the FLDS sprouts grow up with the same dreams, the select few who are allowed to proceed with their education for specific directed occupations being the exceptions.

    Testimonies and life accounts from former FLDS folks says otherwise.

  31. “Nothing wrong with that. With scholarships, grants, and student loans any enterprising student can get themselves through school if that is their dream.”

    Scholarships, grants and loans are a lot harder to get if you don’t have a high school or high school equivalent education. So if you started doing construction when you were 12 the odds of being able to qualify for any financial help goes waaaay down.

    Anyone else notice the change? Apparently our pal Al doesn’t have a leg to stand on so he’s going for the old Ad Hominem attack. Finding it a little harder to paint your buddies as religiously discriminated against in light of the crimes, religious discrimination, and human rights violations coming to light, Al? That’s okay, there’s always the personal attack, which you so frequently claim makes the person making them not worth listening to.

  32. Alin lives in a dream world. Guess what? If you are under 25 and your parents won’t give you copies of their tax returns, you’re pretty much screwed on applying for financial aid. And who is going to get a scholarship if they have not finished high school, can prove no extracurricular activities and don’t play in a high school sports team? Oh, and then there’s that slight problem that from the Crick to anywhere is a REALLY LONG WALK and it’s almost 80 miles to the nearest BUS STATION.

    Troll behavior strikes again.

    Betty

  33. Umm Rebeckah you are the one who pointed out spelling errors, without being specific I might point out. I just pointed out that your own spelling doesn’t seem to be perfect.

    I’m not sure to tell you the truth the certificate homeschoolers use to apply for a post secondary education which may be irrelevant since a lot of the polygamist sects seem to have private schools.

    I don’t believe I’ve ever went down that road of claiming religious discrimination against the membership of the FLDS. Human rights violations against them by the state of Texas sure, but not religious discrimination.

  34. Guess what? If you are under 25 and your parents won’t give you copies of their tax returns, you’re pretty much screwed on applying for financial aid.
    =========================================================
    You are pretty much screwed if your parents won’t finance your way through the nearest college or university but guess what. Adults suck it up and deal with it. That is unless, they are hoping for another government hand out.

  35. No one’s spelling is perfect, however that of people claiming to be FLDS or ex-FLDS seems to be less than than, in my observations. If you need specifics, take a look at the poster on Texas Polygamy who has been identified (although I don’t know if it’s accurately) as Ruth. And there have been others as well. They aren’t making typos, they’re misspelling words on a regular basis. I’ve corrected people using the wrong spelling of homophones simply because they grate on my nerves — I have a bit of a perfectionistic streak. I’ve tried very hard, however, not to be rude about it. I HAVEN’T criticized the misspellings by people like Ruth, I simply hold them up as evidence that there education is lacking. And as for your “without being specific” isn’t that rather the pot calling the kettle black? You make claims on a regular basis with absolutely NO evidence presented whether it’s asked for or not. WHERE is your evidence that the FLDS children and “graduates” are comparable to mainstream children? You have none. You simply made a baseless claim, were called on it, and now are trying to use personal attacks against me to muddy the water and hide your deceptive claims.

    And no, you are not “screwed” if your parents won’t finance your way through the nearest college or university. Children with a solid education, extra curricular skills, sports aptitude and other basic qualifications can usually pursue higher education with a limited amount of accrued debt. The children in the FLDS are denied most of those options by their parents before they have reached their majorities. It is wrong and it is a violation of those children’s basic human rights in America. An education is federally mandated for them and I think it’s time Utah and Arizona (and any other state harboring homeschoolers) stepped up to the plate and started making sure the children are getting that education.

  36. lol, speaking of typos not “there” education but “their” education.

  37. How about having a choice to pursue their dreams, whatever they may be?

    That free agency thing.
    ============================================
    Alin: Nothing wrong with that. With scholarships, grants, and student loans any enterprising student can get themselves through school if that is their dream.

    ………………………..

    That is true Alin, both my children went through college with Pell grants, student loans, and scholarships. But a couple of things are required:

    1. High School diploma or GED
    2. Income tax returns from both the student AND the parents. This is what determines how much, if any, money they will be awarded.

    Of course we all, including you, know you are being obtuse. The children of the FLDS are not expected to even finish high school, let alone go to college. They need the boys to supply the labor for their construction companies, and the girls to supply the vaginas for their breeding farm. What is missing from the FLDS is:

    3) the support and love of a family that believes children belong to their own selves, not to Warren Jeffs.

  38. WHERE is your evidence that the FLDS children and “graduates” are comparable to mainstream children?
    ==================================================
    CPS themselves said Rebeckah that all children they tested was at or above average target for their age range. I’ll be honest and state they didn’t test all but that was highly significant.

    Those children enrolled up in that school in Bountiful perform consistently above their peers in the neighboring areas in all scholastic areas.

    It’s amazing. Time and time again you are shown that the children seem to be doing well scholastically and yet time and time again you start sobbing lack of education.

  39. Yes, obtuse is a good word.

    I think most parents hope to give their children more than just the chance to “suck it up” once they are adults and deal with poverty and ignorance on their own. But if they shun their kids for their religious leader, then that’s exactly what they are doing.

  40. “CPS themselves said Rebeckah that all children they tested was at or above average target for their age range. I’ll be honest and state they didn’t test all but that was highly significant.”

    How many did they test, Al? What ages were they? And how do you extend the test results of a few students to generalize to the thousands of FLDS students? I realize you don’t want to see the abuse right under your nose, and you have every right not to see it if you don’t want to, but I’m certainly not going to close my eyes based you your deceptive statements.

  41. “It’s amazing. Time and time again you are shown that the children seem to be doing well scholastically and yet time and time again you start sobbing lack of education.”

    I haven’t been shown that at all. Please show me the evidence on which you base “time and again you are shown that the children seem to be doing well scholastically”. To be shown that I need to see the majority of children belonging to the FLDS faith tested with standardized test for their states and then have their results compared to those of their mainstream peers. I’ve seen plenty of evidence that the children lose their educational opportunities long before their majority either by becoming part of the labor force or by being married off and impregnated underage. How many of Carolyn’s children required remedial tutoring to catch up to their age group? Again, how many YFZ children were actually tested? How many Short Creek children? BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS! You keep expecting people to take what you say on faith — sorry, but rational people don’t operate that way; they get evidence.

  42. Al

    So how many YFZ residents are in college? Out of 700?

    Yanno, marrying and knocking up those little girls at 14-15 kinda puts the brakes on their options donut?

    AS IF they had any choice. Chattle. Taliban FLDS.

  43. The disgraces AUB council member was a Thompson, who Owen Allred booted in the 90’s for immorality…. I don’t know any details.
    He took a folowing of a few families down near showlow arizona

  44. i forgot about the crying/lying moms from the flds interview circuit:

    BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KING: You never thought plural marriage was wrong?

    SALLY, FLDS MOTHER: No, sir. I do not believe that.

    KING: You never thought that a relationship between, say, older men and teenage girls and younger were wrong?

    SALLY: I would not — I would — for my own daughter, I would advise her to wait until she was of legal age. I would not want her to get married younger than that.

    KING: But did you see others at the ranch getting married younger?

    SALLY: Not that I’m aware of.

    KING: You never saw anyone having sex with an underage girl?

    SALLY: No…

    ESTHER, FLDS MOTHER: No, sir.

    MARILYN: No, sir.

    (END VIDEO CLIP)

  45. Sally is lying. She married off 3 of her daughters underaged.

  46. Yeah but, she didnt see the sex. And truthfully, she probably wanted them to be married when they were old enough and also to make their own choices.

    Age and choices are luxuries not afforded in the sick ideology of the FLDS polygamist predators however.

    Thats one reason Allen Keate is going to the CellOSteel Kingdom for 33 years. And thats not all, others will follow him. Soon.

    And it wont be nice, like before.

  47. She has to know they had sex cuz all 3 of them had kids with their abusers.

  48. Oh, I agree, they know their children are getting abused, and we know what happens if they complain.

    Cast out or sent to a house of hiding. I am so surprised this abuse is still happening, even today, in many states like UT and AZ.

    Thanks Texas for doing the right thing!

  49. Oh like to add it looks like AZ is coming around too, the AG has 5 attorneys on staff now working on this deal. Hope they can make a lot of progress!

  50. Alin: Those children enrolled up in that school in Bountiful perform consistently above their peers in the neighboring areas in all scholastic areas.

    ……………………

    So Alin – how many of the YFZ children from Texas are enrolled in the Bountiful school in British Columbia?

    The fact of the matter is, education is empowering. And empowered young people realize there’s a big, wide, challenging world out there ready to accept what they have to offer. The FLDS know damn well they will lose their drones if they get a taste of knowledge. That’s why they want to get the girls married, knocked up, and trapped as soon as possible – before they have a chance to realize there is more to life than pumping out infants.

  51. “Those children enrolled up in that school in Bountiful perform consistently above their peers in the neighboring areas in all scholastic areas.”

    Do they? Are ALL the children tested, or only a few who are allowed to be students? You cannot use those test results unless they are verified and the test base is verified. I’m not saying that the children in Bountiful are denied educations, because I don’t know that. I also don’t know that they’re uniformly allowed educations either. I’d like some independant numbers before I come to any conclusions. You clearly only want to see something you consider “positive” and aren’t particularly interested in the value of the data as long as it bolsters your claims.

  52. Rebeckah has a point. Plus, I’ve seen the website, It looks like a 7th grade school project. NOT above standards. Using the website as a barometer, they are way behind.

    Here is the link to the inclompleted staff page. Other pages show poorly formatted HTML.

    http://www.bountifulschool.org/Staff.html

  53. Sally’s 3 daughters who were married underage were sisters to Merilyn.

  54. No mention that Sally and Merilyn are mother and daughter who share the same husband.

    No mention from Merilyn that three of her sisters were married underage.

    No mention from Esther that her little sister was married to Warren Jeffs at the age of 13 in 2003.

    Esther is also married to Warren Jeffs. She was reassigned to him when her husband Arthur Leon Barlow was kicked out in 2004.

    Esther is a daughter of Merril Jessop and Ruth Steed, making her a full sister to the gifted (and at one time very tanned) Naomie.

  55. The victim in Allen Keate’s charge was placed under Sally’s wing after she was married first to LeRoy Jeffs on 7-22-2004.

    (It’s in the dictations filed with Merril’s deposition.)

    The girl was 14 at the time.

  56. wonder if naomie missing those tanning days.

  57. oh yeah, allan’s victim was at one time sally’s sister wife and a mother to merilyn.

  58. Yeah, no mention from Merilyn about her 14-year-old mother.

  59. merilyn’s probably mad cuz she had to wait until she was 21.

  60. You guys are awesome. Where were you when Larry King needed you?

    We need a spreadsheet to show how all this went down.

  61. “You never saw anyone having sex with an underage girl?”

    One of the worst interview questions, ever.

  62. that would put merilyn having a “mother” who was 12 years younger than she was. leroy and sally had 8 kids older than mother m. rose barlow allred jeffs.

  63. Merilyn also had to ask permission from Warren Jeffs to have sex with her husband, Wendell Nielsen.

    (Also in the dictations.)

  64. what do you want a spreadsheet on stamp? twist and i will be glad to make it for you. won’t we twist.

  65. i need to reread that twist, i’d forgotten about that.

  66. we need to find some videos of wee willie to break down.

  67. Alin,
    Since you bring up the Bountiful School, they seem to have a very low graduation rate, with the maximum number of children graduating per year being only about 10. What happened to the rest of the class?
    I suspect they were not allowed by either their parents, or the sect leaders, to complete their educations.

  68. shoot no cat, they had to either get married or get a job to support the community.

  69. Spreadsheet, Stamp?

    Spreadsheets.

    I don’t think most of what we know now was known at the time. The Sally-Merilyn connection was one of the first ones I made, but it was shortly after this interview and some others.

    Not to jump too far ahead, but scheduled for trial after Michael George Emack is Merril Leroy Jessop who married one of Sally’s daughter’s underage.

    Apparently they had sex, because there is a child.

    That daughter is the “you are 18” girl from the Long affidavit.

    She wasn’t 18.

    In April 2008, she was not even one month past her 17th birthday.

  70. PT,

    Merilyn asking Warren if she could have relations with Wendell is in one of the dictations filed with Merril’s deposition, but I don’t recall which time frame.

    He said he would get back to about the question.

  71. “support the community” can now be translated into “raise money for attorneys fees.”

  72. “wonder if naomie missing those tanning days.”

    You can bet that Warren does.

    No late night porn in the Cell O’Steel Kingdom.

  73. i’m going to have to reread my dictation. apparently i missed some pretty good stuff. wonder if merilyn’s still waiting for her answer.

  74. What happened to Naomie anyway? Any charges filed against her for aiding and abetting a fugitive?

  75. Two of their three husbands are in prison:

  76. There should be a long list of indictables for harboring/aiding and abetting a fugitive.

    Naomie probably should head the list, but Isaac Jeffs should also be up at the top.

  77. Add Nephi, Wendell Nielsen, Merril Jessop, Lee Steed, Leroy J. Steed, Nathan Carter Jessop, and the list goes on.

  78. love how she asks marie. marie is married to raymond who married j. jeffs, l. jeffs and t. jeffs all underage.

  79. i didn’t realize crazy ruth of banking on heaven fame was a sister to marie and laurene who were married to val jessop.

  80. Cathleen “doesn’t want her last name mentioned” Jessop:

    “How many wives does your husband have?”

    “I will not answer that.”

    I don’t know that we have a solid total of the number of Merril Jessop’s wives.

    Maybe Cathleen doesn’t even know the total.

  81. poor anderson. why doesn’t he just come and interview me.

  82. mmmmmmmmmm, Cathleen’s daughter was married at age 16.

  83. Marie of the drama at the pole.

    Gotta wonder if it was traumatic for her children and Esther’s when their fathers were exed into non-existence by Warren?

    The children’s fathers didn’t count anymore until their DNA samples were needed in Texas. To their credit, both of those men provided samples to the court.

    The new daddies had their DNA taken by search warrnnts. To be fair, Warren couldn’t travel to Texas to give his voluntarily due to some prior commitments.

  84. “what are you?”

    Not exactly Anderson Cooper’s best question.

  85. where did cathleen get the figure of 170 when there were over 400 kids taken.

  86. I don’t suppose Sally Jeffs knew how old her daughter-in-law was?

    Cathleen’s daughter was married at 16 to one of Sally and LeRoy’s sons.

    “Not that I’m aware of.”

    Not aware of much, was she?

  87. I didn’t catch that, PT.

    Guess I’ll bear through watching that one again.

  88. prior commitments? that’s hysterical. almost as hysterical as cathleen’s interview with anderson. isn’t she the one who called merril when carolyn left? she’s probably just ticked that carolyn didn’t take her too.

  89. sally’s own daughter didn’t know how old she was. when asked by an interviewer, she had to ask her husband leroy who was sitting right beside her. he told her she was 18, so she said she was 18. WRONG, she was barely 17 and had a daughter of her own!!!!!!!

  90. I dunno, PT. Is 170 the number who were housed in Fort Concho? I’m not solid on those kid of details, but weren’t some of the 400+ also originally taken to a different facility as well as to Fort Concho?

    I’m not well versed on all of the logistics of the first days and weeks of the story.

  91. i don’t remember, but i thought they were all together at ft concho and it was decided that they needed a bigger space. i think the older girls might have been in a different part of the fort though.

  92. Alin said:
    “I don’t believe I’ve ever went down that road”
    Later Alin said:
    “CPS themselves said Rebeckah that all children they tested was at or above average target for their age range.”

    So Alin is going to be picky about grammer and spelling, while saying “I’ve ever WENT” and “all children WAS”

    What a twit!

  93. Cathleen would know about younger women being married to older men.

    She was first married to Leroy Johnson (Uncle Roy) when she was 17 and he was 95?

    It was a little better the second time around for her. She was 20 and Merril was getting ready to celebrate his 59th birthday.

    On second thought, maybe it was better to be married to Leroy Johnson although that is debatable.

    When he was younger, Leroy Johnson married a girl at 14 who had been raised as his foster daughter for the previous five years.

  94. Uncle Roy’s 14-year-old bride had a sister who was a couple of years older who was also one of his foster children.

    She was married at 13 to one of Uncle Roy’s sons.

    In essence, married at 13 to her brother.

    Warren Jeffs has taken this stuff to new levels of depravity, but it didn’t start with him.

  95. What happened to Naomie anyway? Any charges filed against her for aiding and abetting a fugitive?
    ——-
    None that I’ve heard of.

    And whenever anyone brings up the topic of pursuing justice against female FLDS members (those who failed to report underage marriages or who even actively conspired with the crimes), Naomie is always the first that springs to mind.

    Considering that, as Warren Jeffs’ “scribe” for all those years, Naomie recorded details about many of the crimes Warren was involved in, you’d think she would easiest to build a solid case against.

  96. Spreadsheets of all of these relationships?

    Would ya’ll be willing to share them? I have made lists of names, but nothing as fancy as a spreadsheet.

  97. i think naomie, annette, sally and the late babs should have all been prosecuted.

  98. the only ones who can be excused from the aiding and abeding charges are those in hildale and colorado city who were paying their tithes faithfully, but had no clue what was going on or where the poofers were going.

  99. Do you suppose Barbara really died or did they just clear her from getting indictments?

  100. More Merilyn, Sally and Marie:

    1:19 — “Do 14, 15 and 16 year-old girls get married here?”

    “We are talking about our children.”

    And he was talking about your sisters, Merilyn.

    Sally was somewhat speechless.

  101. Granny Toad,

    According to the dispatches from Joe and Brig, she is truly (and most sincerely) dead.

    They can see the waiting room from their side of the veil and they’re saying the cat fights have been highly entertaining and very informative.

    Uncle Roy has joined them and he, too, wants to know who gets Warren’s wives. He’s not sure, but he thinks one or two of them may have been his to begin with.

    Rulon is not happy because his wives are ignoring some of his needs beyond the veil and the servants are threatening a galaxy-wide strike if anyone but the strongest former East Germany women’s weightlifters have to serve on his planet.

  102. Posting the crimes and true relationships along with their video testimony is powerful.

    Thanks!

    Its just amazing how they think they can snowball the press.

  103. Oh.

    Yeah. Uh-huh.

  104. did merilyn even shed a tear? she was pretending too and then marie refusing to answer whether she shares a husband with many other women. guess that depends on the definition of “many”. is 8 others many?

  105. who’s the chick with glasses next to merilyn?

  106. did you notice annette standing there in her green dress at about 2:40?

  107. Annette that cold cold woman, thinking

    “What a mess Warren has gotten us into now I just knew it would happen sooner or later!”

  108. Rachel, Monica and Rebecca.

    Rachel is Warren’s daughter and Monica is one of his wives. Rebecca is the babysitter of Monica’s children.

  109. No idea who the woman with the glasses is.

    Yes, I saw Annette in the video.

    Did you catch Cathleen walking up to the interview with Merilyn and Sally?

  110. rachel says her daughter was taken with the older group, the first to leave. that’s strange, her oldest daughter was born in 2003. she only has 2 kids, not 4 like she said here.

  111. It’s amazing how much more significance the YFZ raid photos have once you can put a name (and a bit of history) to a face.

    I can now recognize Annette in this photo from the media opportunity at the ranch while the children were still in CPS custody (green dress, 2nd from the right):

    And here is a part about Sally’s refusal to discuss child-brides and other crimes, at the same media opportunity:

    “At one point I started watching a reporter asking Sally questions about the claims of child-brides and criminal activity among the FLDS living on the ranch. She wouldn’t answer and kept trying to keep the conversation on the children being taken away from their mothers, but the newsman kept pursuing his line of tough questions. Finally she couldn’t take it anymore and put her head in her hands…Here is the rest of the sequence as Sally walked off on the reporter. This happened fast, two seconds tops.”
    http://www.trenthead.com/2008/12/yfz-revisited-april-14-2008-media-at-yfz/

  112. here’s the janet jeffs, daughter of rulon and sally again with rosie.

  113. 7:29

    Monica: “They’re not that young.” (13)

    Right.

    Her sister was 12 when she was married to Monica’s husband.

    Rodney Parker: “Thirteen year-olds, that just isn’t true.”

    Say again, Rodney?

  114. yes elle, that’s annette and by her side at the end of the line is the ever popular cathleen who was interviewed by anderson cooper.

  115. here’s willie in all his glory!!!

  116. Proud Texan or Twist, Who is the woman sitting behind Sally in the Larry King interview (last one on the right as you are looking at the screen)? I believe she was one of Leroy’s wives as well. In one of the videos online there is a very brief clip of Leroy and wives and children walking and I recognize her from that. I thought she genuinely looked grieved when the interview at the ranch was conducted (porch scene), but I don’t know who she is. Also, I did not realize Marie had been reassigned to Raymond; for some reason I thought it was Warren. Thanks for the info.

  117. in that second link, you can see annette and cathleen at the top of the pictures, old janet jeffs makes an appearance, marie’s hugging her pole and sally finally pretends to cry.

  118. i don’t know who that is carol. sorry.

  119. I know which one you’re asking about, carolfromcarolina, but I don’t know who she is.

  120. Janet still looks like Rulon.

    I know…mean spirited.

    But she does.

  121. #

    No idea who the woman with the glasses is.

    Yes, I saw Annette in the video.

    Did you catch Cathleen walking up to the interview with Merilyn and Sally?

    TexasTwist said this on January 3, 2010 at 8:34 PM

    Annette and Cathleen are the enforcers…..

  122. http://www.trenthead.com/2008/11/yfz-revisited-april-6-2008-tears/

    another trent picture essay.

    i think the woman carrying the baby in overalls is sally’s daughter, the one who’s husband told her she was 18 and he’s on trial in a month or so.

  123. Re conversation, above. Some of those women were given children belonging to others, I assume? Underaged mothers and/or mothers imprisoned by Warren, whatever?

  124. http://166.70.44.68/blogs/trent/2008/06/children-return-to-yfz/

    i just wanted to ask edson and zevanda where the rest of the children are. edson had 15 with wife 1, 13 with wife 2, wife 3 had 10 kids, 4 of whom were edsons and the other 6’s fathers were dead, wife 4 had 12, 4 of whom were edson’s and the other 8’s fathers were dead and then there’s zevanda who had 9 with her husband that died and then these 4 who were worthy to come to the yfz. edson was the father figure for 63 kids and he brought 4 to the yfz. i don’t think he’ll be winning any father of the year awards.

  125. if the woman in the picture with the baby is sally jeffs nielsen’s daughter, then she did indeed have a baby at 16.

  126. What a mess.
    So many lives wasted by following this crazy ‘Twistianity’ invented by Joseph Smith.

    Wish I could get a refund on all the tithe paid to this crazy cult by my gullible ancestors. 7 generations on both sides! going back to Navoo, of faithful, double tithe paying …fools.

    I want a rebate.

  127. I think you are right about the child in overalls, PT.

    You can do a comparison from these:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/magazine/27mormon-t.html

    The mother of Allen Keate’s victim is in the second slideshow.

  128. Jon Dana said :
    “So many lives wasted by following this crazy ‘Twistianity’ invented by Joseph Smith.”
    Careful now. Don’t insult Twist !!!

  129. Hey it’s a priddygood word. Coulda been carpeanity?

  130. I can’t believe that some of you can not only recognize these folks but actually know a little about their family history.

    Gee, maybe we should start a new game – anyone for “Name that Polygamist?”

  131. I like the word.

  132. i didn’t see M. Rose Barlow in the slideshows, but saw her mother and little sisters. i also saw one of keate’s daughters, the one given to warren at 14ish.

  133. i think “twistanity” its a good word too.

  134. I like the word “Twistianity.” However, Joseph Smith doesn’t have a monopoly on creating it.

    Hmmm, BTW, hows Huge McEgo doing in his version?

  135. How many did they test, Al? What ages were they? And how do you extend the test results of a few students to generalize to the thousands of FLDS students?
    ==================================================
    Rebeckah. You never heard of a statistical sampling?

  136. There was a Larry King show with Maggie Jessop Jeffs Nielsen, Eddie and Zavenda and some others that would be interesting to revisit, but so far I haven’t located it on the tubes.

    There is an explanation for why one of Eddie’s stepchildren wasn’t in Texas with his cozy little family there.

    She was married in 2005 at the age of 15 to one of the good doctor’s half-brothers.

    She appears to be a first wife, so the marriage could be legal if the law was followed but my money goes on that not being the case, seeing that it came after Sam Barlow’s April 2002 statement on marriage licenses and birth certificates.

    I’ve always figured some of the mystery kids of Eddie’s are married and the others…who knows?

    Maybe living in Short Creek with other family members, maybe at one of the other refuges or houses of hiding.

    Someone could ask Eddie about his planned marriage on 7-22-2004 that was cancelled because the girl was “the least physically developed” of the four teens who Warren planned to marry that day to himself, his brother LeRoy, Leroy Johnson Steed and Eddie Jessop.

    (In the dictations from Merril’s deposition.)

    All three of the other girls are victims in sexual assault cases in Texas — Keate’s, Warren Jeffs’ and Steed’s.

    According to Warren’s dictation, Eddie Jessop did not know who his bride to be was on that day, but he and the other two men did receive the teaching from Warren on how to receive a young bride who (paraphrasing) might not be physically ready for childbearing yet.

    So Eddie had to have an inkling that his intended would be a very young girl (his intended was 13).

    Has he learned since then that his intended bride was a 13-year-old girl?

    What would he have done?

    Has he given much thought to it and what does he think about the nature of the other marriages of that day and the men who have been charged including Keate who received one of the girls (silly girl) and was sent away to think about it for 22 years?

    And then there’s Maggie…

    How was it that she herself was not physically present at YFZ when four of her children were taken into CPS custody?

    And why is she not on Wendell Nielsen’s bishop’s list from 2007?

    Is she no longer his wife?

    Was she simply on a Wal-mart run on the fateful day? Perhaps a trip back to Short Creek to tend to some family business? Or was she living/working elsewhere while her youngest children were in Texas?

    Just some unanswered questions.

    The show I’m thinking of aired on the day that the Texas Supreme Court upheld the 3rd COA mandamus.

    There were questions at that time about where Merril Jessop had disappeared to.

    Larry King could have asked Maggie if she knew where her father was.

  137. A correction to the above…

    The 14-year-old girl Warren married to himself on 7-22-2004 does not appear to be at the root of either of his charges in Texas.

    She was one of his underage brides who was included as probable cause for the search warrant issued to get a DNA sample from him.

  138. And of course, Keate’s sentence was 33 years, not 22.

  139. And Maggie could be asked what her feelings were when their Beloved Uncle Warren kicked her husband LeRoy out for “aspiring.”

    What is it like to have your brother-in-law decide that your marriage of 19 years is over?

    What does she think about the marriages of her underage daughters by her sister-wife Sally?

    Did she know about her underage sister-wives?

    What does she think about that?

    And yes, how has life been for her since April 2008?

    Is she living at the ranch? How was her holiday with the children?

    Is her former husband fully back in?

    Has Beloved Uncle Warren gotten over his very large fear about his big brother?

    Does she ever visit with her other mother, Ruth, who could surely use heavy doses of that special love that is unique to mothers and daughters?

  140. What are the chances that we could see a “revisiting YFZ” series of television interviews with any of these same folks who became the “faces of the FLDS” in 2008?

    I won’t be holding my breath, so in the meantime…

    …so many unanswered questions.

  141. Indeed. I think that with Emack going to prison at the end of this month its gonna sink in pretty hard, they are gonna hide in their shell.

    All the lies of those women, of Willie Jessop, of Rod Parker, were just so blatantly false and now they are all so embarrassed.

    Or they should be if they had a concious. But they have been keeping sweet so long, buying the lies, they will probably come up with some new excuse why those rebellious kids needed to be knocked up to keep them out of trouble and catching a glimpse of TV.

    BTW Ruth just had a couple hugh vents on texaspolygamy.blogspot.com

    She is thankfull that Texas would check on the welfare of women and children while the Shortcrick LEA look the other way.

    She is smarter than she appears.

    I think she has one over on those yokels out at the crick.

  142. Ron

    I drove by there, it looks like the Hugo got snowed in. Of course, he was able to write an unintelligeble rant on his Church first. He is trying to score points ??? by telling them they are wrong.

    Well, its not surprising he would want to smooth his own fur, if only he could articulate it without that hairball in his mouth!

  143. Stamp

    I did a “drive by” too. Huge’s ego knows no bounds. He thinks he’s going to reform an ORTHODOX church!

    He never posts my comments but I leave a few nuggets for him anyway. I told him he should start his own church. I told him since he raised $100 to be a “lobbyist” for polygamy he might get lucky when starting his church and raise $150.

    He’s funny – well, in a human train wreck sort of way.

  144. LOL LMAO!

    Thanks Ron for the laugh of the day! Yeah, with $150 he could make a down payment on a snowblower so people can beat a path to his door!

    And he accepts few posts of course, except for a handful of fellow nutters. Vulture stopped by to agree with him that coffee is indeed, a good thing.

    I think what Hugh wants is to get dressed up like a penquin and wrestle with his Church Elders in the snow.

    That last rant was really pretty stupid. They told him to get lost, he evidently doesnt understand.

    And he’s making it worse. His poor wife, I would pity her, but by now she knows what she got mixed up with.

  145. Maybe he was John Lesters only other member of the “Church of the Angry White Men”………

  146. Stamp and Ron,
    Huge Ego is not interested in starting his own church. He is interested in harassing the leadership of the Presbyterian Church. If the Presbyterian Church admitted him for membership, no doubt the female membership of the congregation would make a run for the exits. No one would want their young daughter in a church wherein polygamy was sanctioned, and no decent married woman would want her husband attending a church where polygamy was permitted. He just doesn’t get it.

  147. Hugh gave up on Christianity long ago. He now worships an idol, polygamy.

  148. There was a Larry King show with Maggie Jessop Jeffs Nielsen, Eddie and Zavenda and some others that would be interesting to revisit, but so far I haven’t located it on the tubes.
    ——–
    I tried to find this video clip a while back, too, but couldn’t turn anything up. I think this is the transcript for it, though:
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0805/22/lkl.02.html

  149. This is from the Larry King transcript, and touches a bit on Maggie Jessop’s non-presence at YFZ:

    ———–

    KING: Maggie, what happened the day they were taken? Where were you, where were the kids?

    M. JESSOP: I was traveling out of state and my children were there on the ranch. And I got a phone call that said what was happening. And I can’t even describe my feelings.

    KING: You were shocked?

    M. JESSOP: Oh, absolutely. I was shocked.

    KING: Where was your husband?

    M. JESSOP: I’m not sure where he was at the time, because we didn’t have the phone contact very well at the time.

    KING: Are you with him now?

    M. JESSOP: I’m with these two now.

    KING: Are you with your husband together in — are you living together?

    M. JESSOP: I’m in L.A. . I’m not sure where he is.

    KING: You’re being cute with me, Maggie. No. Is — are you still with your husband?

    M. JESSOP: Of course. I claim him always.

    KING: OK.

    M. JESSOP: He is my — I don’t live with him.

    KING: OK.

  150. That be the show, ellie. Thanks for finding the transcript.

    It was the evening of the 3rd COA decision, not the Texas Supreme Court.

  151. So if the husband wasn’t there and she wasn’t there, to whom did they release the children?

  152. Oh yeah, I see why they pay Larry King the big bucks. He asks questions like

    “Where you shocked?”

    “Have you witnessed any teen sex on YFZ?”

    IRT Hugh taking on his Church, this was inevitable, finally coming to head when Hugh talks up his white supremacist racist militant buddies then poses the question he doesnt know whats gonna happen when he spills out into the aisles of his Church.

    The guy sounds like some muslims I’ve read about.

    No wonder the Church gave him the boot!

  153. In regards to Maggie picking up her children here is an article she wrote that appeared on truth will prevail.org:

    http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=69

  154. There are at least two other articles by Maggie on this site in their archives: “Tender Thoughts of a Lonely Mother” and one that is entitled “Experience, oh Experience” (or something like that – it has “experience” in the title.

    Also, Maggie is apparently back at the ranch or was. There was an interview from the ranch that aired back in the spring or summer and Maggie is in it sitting at the table in a kitchen while the interview is going on and contributes to the conversation. I can’t remember the other people that were there with her – some of you probably know which interview to which I am referring.

  155. “Rebeckah. You never heard of a statistical sampling?”

    Why yes, Al, I have. The examples you’ve put forth don’t qualify for that definition no matter how you try to cram the facts to fit. Keep trying though. I’m sure if you try hard enough you too can lie and make a fool of yourself twisting the truth just like good ol’ Willie Jessop and all your heroes; Joe Smith, Warren Jeffs, Brigham Young, etc.

  156. “Hugh gave up on Christianity long ago. He now worships an idol, polygamy.”

    Actually, CW, he worships partriarchy — polygamy is just a perk. 😉

  157. On this date in history:

    In 1893, U.S. President Benjamin Harrison granted amnesty to all people who had abstained from practicing polygamy since Nov. 1, 1890. It was part of a deal for Utah to achieve statehood.

    In 1896, Utah admitted to the United States as the 45th state.

  158. Rebeckah Said : Actually, CW, he worships partriarchy — polygamy is just a perk.
    You do have a point there.

  159. The Federal Government ought to either revoke Statehood or enforce laws Utah wont.

    BTW It looks like Hugh has cemented a name for his new Church.

    “Church of the Anal retentive Rozita Stalkers”

    CARS

  160. maggie was married to wendell at the time of the raid and still is unless warren had a nocturnal emission and things have changed. wendell wasn’t living on the ranch at the time of the raid either, he was living in san angelo as was raymond.

    i’ve always wondered how eddie’s other wives felt being left behind. he had 2 who have only ever been his and then these 3 he inherited with carl young died. 2 of the carl young wives had been previously married to morgan brighurst. i think those 2 are sisiter or half sisters.

  161. The examples you’ve put forth don’t qualify for that definition no matter how you try to cram the facts to fit. Keep trying though.
    —————————————————
    It works better then your method of pulling out of thin air the thesis that children belonging to FLDS members are not getting enough education.

  162. It works better then your method of pulling out of thin air the thesis that children belonging to FLDS members are not getting enough education.
    ———-
    Except Rebeckah actually has a basis for her thesis and you’re just playing dumb about it.

  163. Really ellie? And yet she fails to show me one child who tested below average.

  164. Now now Alin, I’m sure their childrens’ education is fine by you. It just doesn’t stand up to the rest our expectations.

    Imagine. Utah’s THIRD TRY and it was finally admitted as a state.

    The first couple tries o well they figured they had to lie to get what they want, to keep US soldiers from invading US territory out there in Utah. I cannot recall any other state turned down even once but I’m not the historian.

  165. “It works better then your method of pulling out of thin air the thesis that children belonging to FLDS members are not getting enough education.”

    Hmmm, making inflated claims based on sketchy or non-existent evidence is “better” than taking seriously reports of undereducation of children and wanting to see a neutral evaluation done? Maybe in your world. In mine, it’s pretty clear that a 14 year old married off and a mother a year later isn’t going to have a complete education and is at an extreme disadvantage should her reasoning abilities develop and she want a better life for herself and her children. You continue to try and push that these are “victimless” crimes and “free will” choices but you refuse to see that only with all the information available to the person making a “decision” (and I argue that these girls HAVE made any decisions) can it truly be “free will”. Why does the thought of children receiving a complete and competetive education bother you so much? Afraid that without the limited information these children are allotted that they might actually make a “free will” choice that benefits them and their children? Afraid to lose your homebred slaves? Well, you should be. Religious slavery is losing ground every year and the time is coming when it no longer exists. And that time will come a lot sooner than Warren Jeffs’ predicted destruction of America.

  166. “Really ellie? And yet she fails to show me one child who tested below average.”

    No I didn’t. Carolyn Jessop’s children required tutoring to get their education up to grade level. In particular, her oldest son who had been working since he was 12 required remedial education. Your turn now.

  167. Colorado City, Ariz. » Outside a classroom at North Mohave Community College, students talk quietly as they wait for others to finish a chemistry test.

    It’s a typical campus scene except for this: The students are members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    Approximately 100 people, a majority of them women, in the polygamous sect have enrolled at the college, boosting student numbers by 28 percent.

    “They have fit in so well, it’s actually been a lot of fun to have them on campus,” said Susan Hammon, campus dean. “They take their academics very seriously. … They appear to be well prepared for the classes that they are taking.”

    http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_13628846

  168. Alin knows the FLDS don’t care about higher education, he’s just blowing smoke.

    Does the FLDS Church offer college scholarships to young people within their community? Of course not.

    Are there any FLDS children currently at the ranch, male or female, headed to college to become scientists, mathematicians or engineers? Of course not.

    Oh, and one more thing I forgot to include re: getting loans and grants for college tuition. You need internet access. All the information and forms are online at http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/index.htm

    As we know, Warren Jeffs banned computers. If there is a way to get federal and state financial aid without using a computer, I can’t find it. Not to mention you can’t get through college without using a computer anyway.

    I don’t understand Alin’s and other apologists’ defense of the FLDS “if it bleeds, it breeds” policy, other than it must be a thinly veiled desire to have sex with females who haven’t yet developed the power of personal boundaries.

  169. Oh, and one more thing I forgot to include re: getting loans and grants for college tuition. You need internet access. All the information and forms are online at….
    ===================================================
    Hehe. If you are old school like me you just walk into the financial aide office.

    “Most families on the ranch have computers with Internet access. One of the fathers I spoke with said he doesn’t let his kids on the Internet for the same reasons he doesn’t have a TV.”

    http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/23/935617.aspx

  170. “Most families on the ranch have computers with Internet access. One of the fathers I spoke with said he doesn’t let his kids on the Internet for the same reasons he doesn’t have a TV.”

    …………………………

    Yah. They don’t have TV because they don’t want their children exposed to sex and violence.

    But they’ll hand their 13-year-old daughters over to middleaged men. Go figure.

  171. Mouse, isn’t what happens to them sex AND violence? Otherwise those eyesole could wait until the girls at least turn 18, AND offer choices.

    Options are the name of the game in the real world.

  172. So Al thinks that 100 young women out of 10,000 people is supposed to prove that they’re all educated and interested in higher education. Hmmmm, Al is clearly indulging in wishful thinking. Keep it up, Al! I’m sure your sky fairy will bless you for your faithfulness by destroying all us evil, education loving, law abiding people any day now.

  173. Al thinks that talking about schools in British Columbia and Arizona is somehow proof that the children in Eldorado TX are finishing high school and going on to college.

    We can only hope that with Warren in jail and more of his molester buddies joining him, his power will eventually fade and there will be opportunities for these children to realize there truly are other options besides life inside the cult.

  174. It’s past time our government actually started enforcing some standardized lessons and regular testing of homeschooled children.

    And tricky Al, if the FLDS actually WERE educating their children they would test the lot of ’em and post it for the world to see. Like you, they’d rather look at a few of the bright ones and claim they’re all like that. They aren’t and there’s quite a bit of evidence to show that, but you’d rather not look at that evidence.

  175. If anybody here has video skills it would be interesting to bring all the interviews together with text that shows who is who and how they are related to child brides as they are answering……..
    Could be an interesting project for some young pup in school….

  176. Alin, as proof of computer prevalence in the FLDS, posts an interview where a guy spent whole >HOURS< talking to a few FLDS members and reports what that small group of people said. Gosh, how not at all convincing! Especially when compared to the statements we have seen proven to be lies in other interviews.

    If we have proof of a statement of policy to not register any marriages or birth certificates so that no one can track their illegal activities, how can anyone even determine the number of the population of school age children, let alone estimate the "average" scores on SOLs of that population.

  177. Well since LE confiscated over 60 computers , hard drives, disks, ect from YFZ ranch, I would say there were LOTS of computers! Not counting all the cell phones LE took for evidence.
    And they had more cells phones after they were returned to the ranch, I saw little kids , 6 7 yrs old with cell phones. And on Ali’s comment on the story done by Brook in October, Im wondering if he realzed, Centinnel Park is also known as FLDS, they just spilt from Warren Group!
    Im not sure the young people in the interview were from FLDS short creek group at all.

  178. HHG,

    I think that is a great idea. Comparing what we know now against the interviews that were distributed at the time would be very powerful.

  179. I was thinking that you could have the video with the audio play as is, but then have balloon boxes appear as each speaker speaks which relates what we now know about them – showing the kind of relationships and lies that were highlighted above in the discussion. Kind just let them keep on talking and providing the context that was missing in the interviews

  180. I doubt any of them care if you know that they lie any more than Willie cares.

  181. Regarding the video idea: Just think how big those balloon boxes would have to be to try to list relationships!

  182. I agree Granny toad

  183. i wish willie and the others would realize that just because the girls that were found to have been underage when they were married and had their babies are now adults, it doesn’t excuse the crime and yes, the cps found underage pregnant girls and mothers. teresa jo steed jessop was pregnant and then there was pamela jeffs jessop who had her marriage and first child while underage. there’s lenora jeffs jessop. i’d venture to guess that there were at least 20 if not more.

    willie needs to STFU about there not being any victims.

  184. We are rebuilding my computer. Again. Had to format the whole hard drive and start from diskettes. Sigh. It’s really hard to keep up while perched besides my husband’s work desk using the server for our house which has none of my profiles or data on it. I might be back to normal by Wednesday.

    Betty

  185. GrannyToad,

    I want Oprah and others to know just how thoroughly they were duped. I want the public to know that these women said they didn’t know anything about under aged marriages when they had them in their own houses!

    Betty

  186. sorry betty. hope it gets fixed in a giffy.

  187. i do too betty. i want to see sally jeffs nielsen or whatever her name is this week admit that she didn’t just give 1 daughter to underage marriage, she gave 3 and was probably would have given a 4th if warren hadn’t been arrested. the one just younger than l jeffs jessop would have been close to warren’s favorite age.

  188. Yes anon this other side of that street, I do understand. Close off doors to liars and criminals and abusers because those women were all that.

  189. why is it that there is so little coverage of the trials and outcomes of the investigation into YFZ Ranch in the national press ?

  190. catwhisperer, probably because the national press don’t want to admit how badly they were duped buy the lollipop dress brigade.

  191. i want anderson cooper to come back.

  192. were it not for the Eldorado Success, which I am able to look at on the internet, or this blog, I would know nothing at all…. this is shameful.

  193. there are lots of people in san angelo who know nothing about it since the raid.

  194. oprah needs to get is wee willie’s face and ask why he lied to her, then move on to rich jessop, brother to abuser raymond.

  195. the chances of Oprah doing that are almost nil, Proud Texan. She has really bought their story, hook, line, and sinker.

  196. Let me know if you get what you want, PT, and I’ll be right there.

  197. National Geographic documentary and print are both doing a stories on the FLDS.

    Maybe when they are released there will be more interest.

  198. i think everyone needs to write her and lisa ling and ask if they feel violated by all the lies they were told by wee willie and compnay.

  199. what twist, anderson or oprah?

  200. Cooper.

  201. Aaron Brown would be even better.

  202. Terrific. if you could post the addresses, email or standard mail, we should begin a letter writing campaign.

  203. This is from the Larry King Live show with Sally, Merilyn and Esther that is not included on the video.

    KING: Esther, where’s your husband?

    ESTHER: My children are in that pavilion and my interest is to get them out of the pavilion. I would like…

    KING: Where is your husband?

    ESTHER: I would like for the children to be returned. I would like to have complete custody of my children. I am an active mother. We are active mothers with our children. They are happy with us. They are happy to be here. And they cried in the shelter. They cried and cried, when are we going to go home? When are we going to get back to normal?

    We want them to go home.

    KING: Well, they also have — they have a father. Where is he?

    ESTHER: The interest here is to get the children.

    KING: You have no interest in your husband?

    ESTHER: The interest is that my children are in that pavilion. And I was never served any papers. I was never contacted. I was suddenly — at gunpoint — forced out of my home, onto a bus, gone through the experience of the shelter, the crowded conditions, never served any papers. I have done nothing to — I am not a law breaker. And I have not had any papers served. I have not seen anything. And then without anything…

    KING: All right.

    [Esther’s husband is Warren Jeffs. Warren Jeffs kicked out her first husband and then married her himself.]

    Marilyn…

    ESTHER: …they take the children from you.

    KING: Marilyn, where is your husband?

    MARILYN: I am standing with these ladies, Larry. I want our children returned. And my brother…

    KING: You have no interest in your husband?

    MARILYN: My interest right now is these children.

    [Merilyn’s husband is Wendell Nielsen.]

    KING: And, Sally, where is your husband?

    SALLY: I stand with them also. My total interest and devotion is to get the children with me and that is what they need.

    [Sally’s husband is Wendell Nielsen. Sally and Merilyn are only one of the mother-daughter sets married to Nielsen. Sally’s first husband was kicked out by Warren because he fears his brother LeRoy’s ambition.

    KING: You realize, Sally, that polygamy is against the law. So technically, when you’re in a polygamist relationship, that is breaking the law, isn’t it?

    SALLY: Depending on whose law you’re looking at.

    KING: Well, are you — you’re referring to God’s law?

    SALLY: You can take it as you’d like to.

    KING: Well, the state has law, Marilyn, doesn’t it?

    MARILYN: Yes, it does.

    KING: And do you think you might have broken the state’s law?

    MARILYN: I honestly don’t know what all the laws are.

    KING: All right.

    Esther, do you think you might have broken the law?

    ESTHER: I do not feel like I have broken the law. I know that there has been laws passed within the last three months. And they want to take those laws that were passed three months ago and charge people that — that haven’t — I mean I was – my oldest child is 13.

    Are you going to take laws that were passed three months ago and charge me for something that I had — it’s — it doesn’t match up.

    [Last I knew the difference between spring 2005 and spring 2008 was three years, not three months. Really bad at calendar math or perhaps fed a load of bull?]

  204. all i can find is where you go to oprah.com and click on the link that says contact us. i did it. maybe if a bunch of people did she might get the hint that they made a fool out of her.

  205. Terrific. if you could post the addresses, email or standard mail, we should begin a letter writing campaign.

    catwhisperer said this on January 4, 2010 at 8:23 PM

    What kind of letter campaign, cw?

    To get Anderson Cooper to San Angelo, to get Aaron Brown back on CNN (replacing both Larry King and Wolf Blitzer and even better if he can also be sent to San Angelo), or to draw a picture for Oprah and Lisa?

    Or all three?

  206. i’m thinking a load of bull twist. you notice how they avoid every question about their husband. merilyn is the one who is still with her first husband, but what is the age difference and what wife number is she?

  207. i say a campaign to bring anderson to angelo, but you know wee willie’s not going to give any reporter access to the ranch now that men have been convicted based on the rescue operation

  208. you know, i’d really love a face to face talk with either sally or annette to find out what they are really thinking. surely they aren’t that stupid or gullable.

  209. “When are we going to get back to normal?”

    Which normal, Esther?

    The one they knew before you married the man who divorced you from their father? Or the one after Warren renamed one of your sons because Winston Blackmore also seems to strike a nerve of fear in him?

    Which normal?

  210. I think both of them are intelligent women.

    Annette has certainly seen enough to not be very gullible anymore.

    Sally is somewhat surreal, though.

  211. twist, warren renamed all her kids. seth jeffs renamed one of his kids because his brother leroy had named the girl.

  212. Here’s a link to a GREAT documentary: [free if watch online]http://mormonchallenge.com/thebiblevs.html

    Very eloquently explains where to put Joseph’s Book of Mormon.

  213. Twist,
    Any kind of letter writing campaign you deem would be effective.
    Let’s decide among ourselves, and let’s starting writing (or typing, as the case may be…)

  214. i wonder if sally thinks she gets extra points in the cell O’Steel Kingdom for each underage virgin she offers up in marriage.

  215. Here’s the working link. Click on Blble v. Book of Mormon. GREAT.
    http://mormonchallenge.com/

  216. do you realize sally is only 53 years old. she looks way older than that.

  217. annette is 54 and looks way better than sally.

  218. Again from the April 16, 2008 LKL. This is from the segment where Merilyn gives a partial tour of the Nielsen digs.

    MARILYN: This is my mother’s room. She has three of her daughters that sleep in here with her and they have every one of them. She’s got a 15-year-old girl, a 10-year-old girl and an 8-year-old girl. And she comes home and sleeps in the room and every child is gone.

    (CRYING)

    [Just curious, Merilyn. Did you cry when your sisters J., P. and L. “poofed” from your mother’s side and sight every night? “They” have every one of them as brides.]

  219. i missed marilyn giving a tour of the nielsen abode. too bad wandell wasn’t there to enjoy it. he was living in angelo for some unnamed sin.

  220. I think a letter writing campaign would be futile unless you put evidence with it — like the transcripts above. Quotes from the women telling lies, then the truth underneath it.

  221. Probably because he couldn’t keep all of his wives under control.

    Warren’s dictations have several references to problems in Wendell’s households.

  222. The video tour of the Chateau Nielsen was on the tubes at one time.

    It’s a sight to see.

  223. Texas Connie, I agree. Then let’s decide whom we would like to send letters to, and include with the letters the relevant evidence.
    @ Jon Dana,
    Thanks for the link, I hope to get the opportunity to review this video later tonight.

  224. excellent post here: http://www.pdfrazier.com/2008/04/please-do-not-be-misled-flds-women-of.html

  225. Larry King doesn’t just toss a softball to Willie Jessop like the “have you seen them have sex question.

    This is even worse.

    From the May 22, 2008 LKL with Willie, Maggie, Eddie and Zavenda, and Mary Ann. It also had a YFZ tour that would be interesting to find on the tubes:

    KING: Recently, LARRY KING LIVE cameras were given exclusive access to that community.

    Willie Jessop, who is with us here tonight in L.A. , was our guide for this unusual look inside the YFZ grounds.

    Watch.

    (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

    W. JESSOP: I think you could call it a compound.

    A compound is defined as what?

    It’s something that’s restricted, isn’t it?

    Anybody can leave any time they want. This right here is a school building. This would be normally a beautiful day for school for the community. Everybody else is looking for their children or looking for some legal help for their children or for themselves to get their children.

    It looks like spelling books — reading, writing — anything that would be in any other normal school. This would be a room full of students. And they’d meet in the morning, have a few songs, a prayer, start the day off and then the rest of the school.

    You would normally see the rooms very, very well kept. You wouldn’t see filing cabinets and papers laying around, ransacked garbage cans full and everything gone through. This is not how it’s typically been. It’s been trashed.

    Anybody can go and come as they need or want. But the idea of the ranch is it was built to sustain itself — to sustain the people that are here.

    Welcome to the cow barn. They milk six on each side. If you don’t milk it, it’s a use it or lose it.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that’s a cheese vat right there. That heats up the milk and stirs it — the ingredients to make cheese out of the milk. They would be busy in here normally.

    W. JESSOP: Why do you need cheese when you have no children to give it to?

    This would be clear full of people working. This was a community that was growing, building. The fields out there with the rows is the potato fields. Right next to the potato field is the alfalfa fields. Basically, you had everything in any community. And you had gardens, you had fields, pastures and that little town down below.

    Where was the abuse?

    Was it that house or that house or that one or that one or that one or that one?

    Where was the abuse?

    (END VIDEO CLIP)

    KING: Good job, Mr. Jessop.

    Thank you.

    W. JESSOP: Thank you.

    KING: You sound like you’ve been doing this a long time.

    [And what is with the fixation on cows? I suppose the YFZ cows are even more “irreplaceable” than the Utah heifers.]

    FREE THE SACRED COWS!!!

    [I swear I could hear and see Walt Disney bluebirds during part of that with a lovely banner reminding all to Keep Sweet!]

  226. LOL @ the Disney bluebirds and the Keep Sweet banner. I’m really hankering for a Free the Sacred Cows bumper sticker.

  227. we need to get those connie.

    i agree that we need to present a letter with their words and then show the lies in their words. i just sent a tweet to larry and anderson about the flds.

  228. Maybe send letters / emails with requests for more coverage, and include in those letters the relevant documentation

  229. I meant above : send letters and emails to as many television journalists as we can.

  230. TexasTwist said:
    They can see the waiting room from their side of the veil and they’re saying the cat fights have been highly entertaining and very informative.

    Hey I foretold that there would be “heaven waiting-room cat fights” with Fawnita and Barbara.

    Looks like my prophesy came true.

    Do I get to be the new prophet, seer and revelator?

  231. So that tweeting I heard was PT and not Disney bluebirds.

    On the re-read I heard Cathleen in the background bursting out into “amber waves of grain.”

    I was just thinking about what PT said about Sally and her three child bride daughters…maybe she thought three was a quorum that would guarantee her a place as a goddess in the cellosteel kingdom regardless if she had the bad fortune (again) to be married to a man whose P-hood was either in jeopardy or already trashed when the end comes.

    Considering that Wendell appeared to be repenting from a short distance, ya gotta wonder what many of his wives were thinking considering that so many of them were on their second P-hood head and some having lost more than one ticket to ride.

    That reminds me of something about Esther.

    She was sealed to her first husband for time and eternity which became null and void when he was kicked out.

    When she married Warren, it was for time only with the prospect that in time she would be sealed to Rulon Jeffs by proxy for eternity.

    I wonder if that ever happened?

    If not, she is without a date for the prom.

  232. “Do I get to be the new prophet, seer and revelator?”

    Absolutely.

    Beloved Uncle (or Aunt) Anonymous has a nice ring to it.

  233. i think i remember that about esther being “saved” for rulon. how gross to be married to someone who’s already dead.

    i think raymond’s ticket to the big house might be dated for friday, jan 8. if his hearing ends soon enough, he might be able to catch the last van out on thurs the 7th.

  234. you know, sally still has a trio of daughters in the wings, although r jeffs is now 17, but s jeffs is 12 and l jeffs is 10. those last 2 have potential if only unca warren remembers them in his nocturnal emissions.

  235. I have written another article. This one explains the events that led up to Warren’s prison confession, his attempt to take his life, and how he later reclaimed this leadership. See: http://flds101.blogspot.com/2010/01/flds-history-101-warren-jeffs-torment.html

  236. thanks flds101. i’ll check it out.

  237. FLDS 101, you have a great site, thanks much for your efforts.

  238. Part of the CNN tour of Chateau Nielsen.

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/04/16/lkl.flds.polygamy.cnn

  239. Two wives of Warren Jeffs and two of Merril’s children:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/video/325/First-look-inside-FLDSs-YFZ-Ranch.html

    “Everyone needs to know the truth.”

    Alrighty, then.

  240. Larry Kimg’s wife is LDS and King intervirewed former LDS president Hinckley on his show.

  241. After watching the CNN tour of Chateau Nielsen, my first pressing question is….where can we send a donation of a good pair of tweezers to Merilyn?

  242. FLDS 101 – I appreciate the way you draw this information together and put it into an easily understandable form. I’ve come about most of this information piece meal and having it all tied together is a real help to me in understanding it in a global context.

  243. Those musings from Warren in jail prior to his trial have been some of the most difficult to understand. Thanks, FLDS 101, for putting them into a richer context.

    I’ve been unable to get past the bat-guano crazy aspect to them.

  244. i agree anonymous@5:39. maybe a heavy duty set.

  245. from the desert news video, wonder why shannon wasn’t with her children at the time of the raid. she has 2 who were under 10 at the time of the raid.

  246. shannon is the great-granddaughter of leroy johnson. monica is merril’s daughter, full sister to the 12 year old who was married to warren. the man, richard is a half sister to monica through merril’s first wife fonetta.

  247. did you notice the meeting room in the house merilyn showed. the lazyboy up front and all those straight backed chairs for the wives and children to set in. man were there a bunch.

  248. Remember the letter sent from three FLDS mothers to Texas Governor Rick Perry?

    It was signed by Monica Jessop Jeffs, Shannon Johnson Jeffs and Patricia Keate Jeffs.

    What was not mentioned in the news articles at the time is that all three are wives of Warren Jeffs.

    Of the three Patricia Keate Jeffs was logged in to visit Warren just prior (and after?), so it’s pretty easy to figure why she wasn’t on the ranch.

    I believe Shannon was also one of the movants on the breast-feeding issue?

    Shannon’s mother, Janice Cooke, left the FLDS in the early eighties and moved to the San Angelo area to help her daughter during the period of time that the CPS custody suits were active.

    I don’t know who Patricia Keate’s parents are.

    ——–

    The letter, which appears to be signed by Monica S. Jessop, Patricia Keate and Shannon Maria Johnson who say they represent the mothers at the YFZ Ranch, says that, “Our innocent children are continually being questioned on things they know nothing about.”

    The women write about 15 mothers were away from the ranch “when the state seized our children” and that they had nowhere to go “because of law enforcement blockade preventing entering or leaving the ranch” until April 9.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695272524/FLDS-letter-finally-delivered-to-Texas-governor.html

  249. Well, yeah, PT.

    Wendell Nielsen had a lot of estrogen living in that household.

  250. Some comments on the video of Monica, Shannon and Richard.

    Monica’s eye movements are interesting.

    Shannon seems like a very nice, kind woman.

    Their husband has been charged with two counts of sexual assault in Texas resulting from evidence gathered against him. Not to mention that he has been one of the best witnesses for the state of Texas.

    Richard does a latter news interview in his home and his three wives are all present and identify themselves in the film and contribute quite a bit to the segment.

    And I really could hear birds chirping in the background of Monica’s segment.

    Did the Deseret News producer let Willie script the editing of that piece? Might as well have.

    “Good job, Mr. Jessop.”

  251. Warren Jeffs’ attorneys couldn’t be bothered to send any represtation for the status hearing of Shannon’s children.

    ——

    After pausing, De La Mota replied: “The father would be Warren Jeffs.”

    “And he is a guest of the state of Utah,” Aboussie said, referring to Jeffs being in prison.

    “He doesn’t have an attorney present, but he is seeking counsel at this time,” De La Mota said. CPS workers said they have mailed him family service plans to review.

    http://www.childbrides.org/raid_des_FLDS_start_hearings_on_regaining_custody.html

    It’s not like he didn’t have a slew of attorneys already working for him. And this was one of my favorite lines of this entire saga (from the same article). It came from Judge Marilyn Aboussie who was holding the status hearing:

    “‘And he is a guest of the state of Utah,’ Aboussie said, referring to Jeffs being in prison.”

  252. Anyone ever see this group of crying mamas from that era?

    It would have aired on Fox and was filmed at the same time as the one of Janet, Rozie and Sally.

    ——
    “Janet, Rozie and Sally were interviewed live at 730am. Ada, Shannon and Amy went next at 830.”

    http://onthescene.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/04/16/yfz-ranch-visit/

    I don’t believe I’ve ever seen those three interviewed together and if anyone can locate the video or a transcript, I would be most appreciative.

    If the Ada is Ada Johnson Draper Steed Jeffs Nielsen, she has an interesting story. Or it could be her daughter Ada who is married to Warren Jeffs.

  253. If the Amy from the Fox interview was Amy Elnora Johnson Johnson Jessop Nielsen, she is another resident of Chateau Nielsen who has an interesting backstory.

    That Amy had a motion of conservatorship in the CPS civil case.

    http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/2928-motion-8-5-08.pdf

    Her daughter S.L. Johnson was married in September 2005 at the age of 15 to Dan B. Jeffs aka Jessop (son of David Hunter Jeffs and Madeline Barlow who was reassigned to Merril Jessop after Warren threw that brother out.).

    S.L. Johnson was one of the movants in the breast-feeding motion.

    At the time she was married underage at YFZ, she had been Nielsen’s stepdaughter for just over five months.

  254. The daughter S.L. Johnson should be S.E. Johnson.

  255. Im curious why those women were gone. I wouldnt be surprised if it was to go to AZ to collect and spend their welfare and food stamp money, and return with the goods to TX.

    I wonder if there is a way to cross check records of YFZ residents with welfare recipients from Arizona / Utah?

  256. Can the administrators start a new thread that will contain the transcripts quoted above along with the parenthetical information of who is saying what and how they are lying?
    That way when people come in to look they will find the information without trolling the comments section.

  257. FLDS 101
    just read your latest – thank you for assembling and making such information intelligible

  258. I wonder if there is a way to cross check records of YFZ residents with welfare recipients from Arizona / Utah?
    ================================================
    I thought they already did that?

  259. Alin: The texasflds administrators should take that as a badge of honor.

  260. ‘Nobody mentioned it yet but apparently this site and Coram Non Judice won the wiener of the year award.”

    Thus Spracht Alinusara, 1/5/10

    Alin,
    Coming from someone with the maturity level of the Vulture, I would consider that a compliment.

  261. Oprah
    Janet Jeffs Nielsen, Amy Johnson Nielsen and Salley Jeffs Nielsen…..around 4:02 into interview.

  262. “I wonder if there is a way to cross check records of YFZ residents with welfare recipients from Arizona / Utah?
    ================================================
    I thought they already did that?”

    No one knows what was done along those lines as it is unethical and illegal for the agencies involved to release any information pertaining to what they might have found. The only way anyone would know anything about it would be if one or both states actually chose to criminally prosecute one or more of the women for fraud. That is highly unlikely to happen. Generally they just send you a bill for overpayment and drop you like a hot potato until it’s paid. No one else has access to that information.

  263. “Nobody mentioned it yet but apparently this site and Coram Non Judice won the wiener of the year award.”

    Wow, thanks for the info. I guess with Duane banned you felt it necessary to pick up his tattle-tale habits yourself? I don’t think anyone with a reasonable level of maturity is going to be hurt that someone like Vulture, Hugh, or Bill has tried to insult them. Heck, Vulture is still crying in his Wheaties because Blues was rude to him. Could he get anymore 12-year-old?

  264. While the vulture flaps with McEgo and pretends to be his friend, to his credit I havent seen him articulate, even feebly, an excuse for the FLDS child molesting, and his various posts have just been anti-LE and not pro-child molesting.

    He is just anti-law enforcement, anti government, much like Huge McEgo’s other Aryan Nation white supremacist militant buddies back in Montana. I could imagine Vulture in that group if he lived there, he climbs the same tree.

  265. Wow, thanks for the info. I guess with Duane banned you felt it necessary to pick up his tattle-tale habits yourself?
    ======================================================
    Tattletale? I was doing a service telling the administrators of this site of an award they received. Apparently you would get your feelings hurt if someone mentioned to you what someone else said behind your back but most adults preferred to keep informed.

  266. The only way anyone would know anything about it would be if one or both states actually chose to criminally prosecute one or more of the women for fraud. That is highly unlikely to happen.
    ————————————————–
    Well first the women actually have to commit fraud. Just because in your imagination fraud was committed doesn’t make it so.

  267. I guess I’ll try to get this in before I get banned for being a “troll” (again).

    I am NOT anti law enforcement. I AM concerned about the militarization of our police (an offshoot of the counterproductive war on drugs) and the tendency of some cops to look at every civilian as a criminal.

    I am also not a white supremacist, nor a militant. I’d like to see the country returned to Constitutional principles, that’s all. I have much more in common with Ron Paul than with the loser white supremacist militant crowd.

    But, as per the tradition of this blog and (deleted), it’s easier to designate your critics as reprehensible persons than it is to address their arguments.

    Thanks for making my point for me (yet again).

  268. So, Vulture, what Constitutional right does anyone have to molest children?

  269. “Well first the women actually have to commit fraud. Just because in your imagination fraud was committed doesn’t make it so.”

    You’re right, I worded that poorly. IF the women committed fraud — and continue from there. I actually am not assuming they were, I don’t know one way or the other. The point I was making is that welfare fraud has to be an organized crime ring type thing before it is tried as a criminal offense, otherwise it is simply an internal matter handled by the state office. I’ve never heard any accuations that FLDS do more than claim to have no husband to collect welfare, so I seriously doubt we’d see any criminal cases. Without a criminal case (which makes a lot of information public) we have no way of knowing whether or not the women on the ranch were getting benefits in Utah and Arizona. And we shouldn’t, since that’s a privacy issue.

  270. Al,

    Collecting welfare from one state while a resident of another would be fraud.

    At this point its just suspected. However, it was suspected the FLDS were engaging in child molesting too. Right now we have three men in prison for that and 10 more coming to trial for it.

    And no they have no Constitutional right to molest children, not in this COUNTRY!

  271. In my opinion, if you want more Americans to pay attention, you have to go the low road and emphasize who is having sex with whom.

    We love a good sex scandal in this country. It may be a sad commentary on our society, but I think way more people would be offended if it was pointed out that:

    1. Mothers and daughters are married to the same man
    2. Men marry their stepdaughters and nieces
    3. Warren Jeffs marries the wives of the men he kicks out

  272. Just curious Stamp. What would you do in the case of the once child, now adult, stating no molestation occurred?

  273. Tattletale? I was doing a service telling the administrators of this site of an award they received. Apparently you would get your feelings hurt if someone mentioned to you what someone else said behind your back but most adults preferred to keep informed.
    ———-
    I read Hugh’s and Vulture’s websites and… (drumroll)Congratulations! They’ve both just won Internet Nitwit of the Year! Please, Alin, do them the service of letting them know.

  274. the only way they can say no molestation occurred is if there is no child born to an underage girl to prove it. if there is a child who was born to the underaged person, then it doesn’t matter if they call it molestation, it is molestation.

  275. Good Point Anon E Mouse.

    1 and 2 has a huge icky factor for me but I think Kingston has members that may actually be if not legally, at least factually, true in that accusation.

    As for number 3. “Warren Jeffs marries the wives of the men he kicks out?” Sucks for the men that their ex love someone else better then them but that’s the American way. No woman should be forced to stay with a man they don’t love.

  276. the only way they can say no molestation occurred is if there is no child born to an underage girl to prove it.
    ————————————————–
    Another good point. I’m not sure if taking DNA from both the suspected victim and the innocent newborn is morally right let alone it’s 4th amendment implications.

  277. “Just curious Stamp. What would you do in the case of the once child, now adult, stating no molestation occurred?”

    If the once child, now an adult, was groomed to have sex with an adult, had sex while underage, is now an adult, and claims no molestation occured then the once child is still locked in that childlike state of dependency for his/her abuser. It is a very common occurance but it does not negate the illegality and immorality of the actions taken by the molester. And molestation still took place.

  278. A-li-n, guess you have absolutely NO reading comprehension, as pointed out on THIS thread, the FLDS are the ones that are prime examples of ALL of the following

    1. Mothers and daughters are married to the same man (just one example: Merilyn and Sally)
    2. Men marry their stepdaughters and nieces (Just a few examples: Nielsen, Jeffs, Jeffs, Jeffs, Jeffs, Jeffs, Jeffs, Jeffs, Jessop, Jessop, Jessop, Jessop, Jessop, Cooke)
    3. Warren Jeffs marries the wives of the men he kicks out

  279. “No woman should be forced to stay with a man they don’t love.”

    No man or woman should be pressured to leave a man or woman they DO love either. Warren’s own dictations show that he’s run roughshod over many women’s feelings after ex-ing their “spouse” to marry them off to someone else. Love has nothing to do with the equation and you know it.

  280. “Another good point. I’m not sure if taking DNA from both the suspected victim and the innocent newborn is morally right let alone it’s 4th amendment implications.”

    What would you know of morals? You think women and children should be slaves to men.

  281. And again I smack myself upside the head….don’t feed the troll, don’t feed the troll, don’t feed the troll…..hopefully I will remember that.

  282. Good answer. I’m troubled by the guise of labeling adult women having childlike state of dependence in need of protection in order to go against their wishes but I see where you come up with the illegality of the actions of the adult.

  283. I wonder what the 4th Ammendment right says that makes it “immoral” to obtain evidence of a crime against a child. Hmmm, apparently Al thinks that criminals who are in positions of enough power to totally cow their victims into never admitting to a crime, or able to persuade them that there is no crime, that no investigation is ever “moral”. So he clearly believes, not in the rule of law, but that only stupid and weak criminals should be prosecuted and the strong or clever ones have a Constitutional right to not face investigation at all. Scary world you want there, Al. I wonder how the FLDS would feel if the government ignored the Mafia moving into Short Creek and taking it over? Especially if they were able to cow their victims into claiming there were no crimes.

  284. What would you know of morals? You think women and children should be slaves to men.
    ==========================================================
    Not at all. I think adult women should be allowed to make adult choices.

  285. Al,

    It matters not. You are aware of the Stockholm syndrome?

    Anyway

    Say you smuggled in a kilo of heroin and sold it all over town and no one complained, rather, they said “Hey! I like Al and his most excellent stash!”

    OOPS Al goes to prison, regardless all your freinds thought you were the best.

  286. I wonder what the 4th Ammendment right says that makes it “immoral” to obtain evidence of a crime against a child.
    ==================================================
    See that is the point you and I disagree about. You view a baby as evidence. You view the mother’s DNA as evidence. I view the mother and child as simply, mother and child. I’m astounded that people feel it’s perfectly acceptable to force a mother to submit to DNA testing to prove or disprove a crime.

  287. Al, it’s been shown by many researchers that abuse retards and often halts emotional and mental growth in the victims. This is true in males and females. I realize you don’t want to admit to that because your worldview is tied up in “This is okay and no abuse takes place.” but that’s not truth. It IS abuse and the women don’t complain because they aren’t able to. Some think they have no options. Some are terrified of the outside world. Some are willing to sacrifice their own “self” in order to remain close to their families (they don’t want to be shunned). MANY are unable to make their own decisions and terrified of being asked to. The treatment of people within the FLDS is inhumane and immoral. What has been done to many hundreds, if not thousands, of underage girls and boys is criminal — and I mean that literally. The fact that the FLDS feel it is their First Ammendment “right” to ignore any pesky law they choose (from tax laws, building laws, child labor laws to child sex laws) is deeply disturbing to a law abiding country. This should be front page news and everyone should be paying attention to it. People who feel entitled to ignore the law and “persecuted” when the law is upheld when they break it are one tiny step away from violent crimes against their neighbors. I find it interesting how the “one true restored church” has created so many violent, bloodthirsty criminals. (Brigham Young, Mitchell, Warren Jeffs, the LeBarons, and so on.)

  288. “Not at all. I think adult women should be allowed to make adult choices.”

    12, 13, 14, etc are not “adults”. Yet you wish to claim that the crimes committed against girls should be ignored. You don’t care about “adults” making adult choices, you’re all about men being able to impregnate young girls to keep them in an abusive situation. Patriarchy, baby, it’s the “one true way”.

  289. “See that is the point you and I disagree about. You view a baby as evidence. You view the mother’s DNA as evidence. I view the mother and child as simply, mother and child. I’m astounded that people feel it’s perfectly acceptable to force a mother to submit to DNA testing to prove or disprove a crime.”

    That’s the way it works in America, Al. DNA is not some secret, sacred, private thing you get to keep in the face of a subpoena. Neither are journals, banking information, computers, etc. Evidence to a crime is evidence to a crime, whether possessed by a mother and child or not.

  290. Al

    Ya just keep driving home why this child molesting cluster needs to put a stop to their madness.

    History has shown if left alone, they just commit worse crimes against ever younger children.

    There was a search warrant, children were found to be abused and neglected, perps are now riding into the CellOSteel Kingdom on a rail.

    Who they blaming this week?

  291. See that is the point you and I disagree about. You view a baby as evidence. You view the mother’s DNA as evidence. I view the mother and child as simply, mother and child.
    ———
    Apparently you think that men who groom young girls to accept sexual molestation should not be prosecuted because you respect the women and children SO MUCH.

    That’s an amazing feat of logical gymnastics you just performed! I don’t think I can even be mad – it’s just too impressive.

  292. Sorry Al, I’ve told you before, and I will tell you again, pregnancy in a skeletally immature female is a dangerous proposition for both mother and infant. This cannot and should not be tolerated.

  293. Which reminds me.

    I wonder how many years Emack is facing this month?

    Does he face the same deal as Keate?

    10-99 years?

  294. Apparently you think that men who groom young girls to accept sexual molestation should not be prosecuted because you respect the women and children SO MUCH.

    That’s an amazing feat of logical gymnastics you just performed! I don’t think I can even be mad – it’s just too impressive.
    ===============================================
    Sure. If I wanted complete safety I would ask my guvmint to lock me up in a cage and be done with it.

  295. i was impressed by al’s ignorance. i don’t see how anyone can be that ignorant. the drug example is a perfect example of what we are talking about. just because no one complained about you doesn’t make what you did right.

  296. Sorry Al, I’ve told you before, and I will tell you again, pregnancy in a skeletally immature female is a dangerous proposition for both mother and infant.
    =========================================
    I’ve already agreed it’s best to wait until the skeletal structure is complete. It’s just as potentially dangerous if the partner is 14 or 40. So what are you doing about Texas teenager pregnancy rates?

  297. “Sure. If I wanted complete safety I would ask my guvmint to lock me up in a cage and be done with it.”

    lol, funny how it goes to “adults women making adult choices” to “If *I* want complete safety…”. All about you when you get right down to it, isn’t it, Al.

    Let’s try it again, “I (meaning YOU, Al) believe that adult (meaning anyone over the age of 8 ) should be allowed to make the decisions I (or his or her nearest male handler) feel is appropriate. If I can convince him or her, through threats, bribes, indoctrination or any other means, to accept this treatment after he or she is legally an adult then the government should not be allowed to investigate what I may or may not have done which is against the law. The Constitution says so.”

    Does that sum it up?

  298. “I’ve already agreed it’s best to wait until the skeletal structure is complete. It’s just as potentially dangerous if the partner is 14 or 40. So what are you doing about Texas teenager pregnancy rates?”

    Well, for starters, she and everyone else here are pointing out and attempting to shed light on a reclusive group of people who have turned child pregnancy into a tenet of their religion. And just what are YOU doing about it?

  299. So what are you doing about Texas teenager pregnancy rates?
    Alinusara10 said this on January 5, 2010 at 12:44 PM

    I don’t live in Texas. I educate women on contraceptive technology in my area. What are you doing, Alinusara ?

  300. lol, funny how it goes to “adults women making adult choices” to “If *I* want complete safety…”. All about you when you get right down to it, isn’t it, Al.
    ——–
    I really don’t see what Al is doing on this website since we’re talking about children being abused and Al’s real concern is the Big Scary Government coming to lock him in a cage. Surely there are other websites out there that would better cater to his paranoia.

  301. Al is trying to make excuses and tossing red herrings. There arent any other kiddie sex communes in Texas – Oh wait there is that one in AR, and the Prophut just got sentenced.

    175 years in prison

    Remember the Tony Alamo!

  302. Let’s try it again, “I (meaning YOU, Al) believe that adult (meaning anyone over the age of 8) should be allowed to make the decisions I (or his or her nearest male handler) feel is appropriate. If I can convince him or her, through threats, bribes, indoctrination or any other means, to accept this treatment after he or she is legally an adult then the government should not be allowed to investigate what I may or may not have done which is against the law. The Constitution says so.”

    Does that sum it up?
    ===================================================
    Partially correct. I’ve have no problem with the investigation as long as it doesn’t go roughshod over the rights of the victim. This is an area where we have to agree to disagree.

  303. Well, for starters, she and everyone else here are pointing out and attempting to shed light on a reclusive group of people who have turned child pregnancy into a tenet of their religion.
    =============================================================
    Actually multiple marriages appear to be a tenet of their religion not child pregnancy.

  304. Actually multiple marriages appear to be a tenet of their religion not child pregnancy.
    ——-
    Given Warren Jeffs instructions and dictations, which his followers carried out, multiple child pregnancies appear to be an important tenet of their religion.

  305. Al is on this website trying desperately to turn the attention of others away from the facts of the FLDS crimes which are laid out quite clearly here in court documents and evidence. He doesn’t want people to actually consider the egregious offenses against the laws protecting children in our American community. In short, he’s trolling for the FLDS church. In spite of Al’s claims to be Southern Baptist and his occasional assertions that child pregnancy might be harmful, I believe he’s actually an FLDS member attempting to muddy waters in their finest tradition of deception, red herrings, twisting statements and, of course, outright lies — for the Lord, of course.

  306. I wonder how many years Emack is facing this month?

    Does he face the same deal as Keate?
    ———
    Michael Emack’s indictment is for an assault “on or about the 6th day of October, 2004”
    http://www.childbrides.org/MichaelEmack_indictment-07-22.pdf

    So I think he won’t be subject to the improved 2005 laws that Harvey Hilderbran authored.

  307. “I’ve have no problem with the investigation as long as it doesn’t go roughshod over the rights of the victim. This is an area where we have to agree to disagree.”

    There is no “right” for a victim to withhold DNA. If you think there should be then you should probably see about forming or contacting a lobbying group. I doubt it will do any good, however.

  308. “Actually multiple marriages appear to be a tenet of their religion not child pregnancy.”

    Clearly child pregnancy IS a tenet of their religion as they claim religious persecution for criminal prosecution. It can’t be “religious persecution” unless their religion required it.

  309. Vulture’s good buddy Huge McThreat, posted on his blog right before he is booted out of his Church:

    “They see religious polygynists as essentially breeding grounds for right wing terrorism, and frankly, the rhetoric I have been treated to by some of my brethren makes me wonder if they’re not right about that. I can see some of my acquaintances holed up like Freemen in Jordan quite easily. I KNEW Randy Weaver, and liked the guy, he’s not what you think he is, but he is just a tad too militant. He made himself a target, so did “Freeman” leader LeRoy Schweitzer, who is in maximum security prison until 2018.

    snip

    I have the distinct feeling that a long “fish or cut bait” moment is rapidly approaching in my life. It won’t be long until my passion spills out into the aisles of my own church, and I can’t tell you what will happen then.”

    http://hughmcbryde.blogspot.com/2009/12/new-year-revolution.html

  310. Apparently arranging for a female to conceive as soon as she is able to is a tenet of their religion.

  311. There is no “right” for a victim to withhold DNA. If you think there should be then you should probably see about forming or contacting a lobbying group. I doubt it will do any good, however.
    ———
    Exactly. Should victims be allowed to keep their abusers out of prison, so that the abusers can continue their crime sprees with new victims?

    Since they’re polygamists and extremely obedient to their pedo-prophet, Warren Jeffs could assign any of these men a new 13-year-old “bride” today and have them celebrating their “wedding” tomorrow night. And I would bet that they would go along with it.

  312. Stamp,
    What do you think Huge Ego was suggesting in his post ?
    sounds like violence to me.

  313. Al is on this website trying desperately to turn the attention of others away from the facts of the FLDS crimes which are laid out quite clearly here in court documents and evidence.
    =================================================
    Not really. The evidence clearly shows that some members are guilty of crimes. My argument all along is that the state has no right to that evidence. So far the courts agree with your position.

  314. Who give’s a rat’s behind what Vulture thinks? And why are we actually talking to Alinusara? If you notice, there was a productive conversation and links being shared and then….bam….we started banging Alin on the head instead.

  315. Apparently arranging for a female to conceive as soon as she is able to is a tenet of their religion.
    =====================================================
    Not really or the marriage rates would be like 100%

    “There were 43 girls removed from the ranch from the ages of 12 to 17 — which means that more than one out of every four pubescent girls on the ranch was in an underage marriage,” the investigation claims.”

  316. so the marriage rate for pubescent girls isn’t 100%, it is 25%
    It should be zero.

  317. Not really or the marriage rates would be like 100%
    ——-
    Nah, Warren was probably just saving those ones in reserve, for the next time he needed a lot of extra work performed or substantial tithing.

  318. The FLDS Church believes in direct revelation from God to the prophet. Warren S. Jeffs clearly has stated that underage marriages are acceptable and righteous, so he has established the practice of ‘Child Brides’ which dates back to Joseph Smith in practice and tradition. Theocratic plans preclude ‘Gentile’ democratic Laws and Justice and are void if they don’t concur with these revelations.

    Supreme Court case of Reynolds vs. United States established in 1887 that following religious tenet/axiom is not a viable defense when violating an existing law or statute. Following Theocratic directives that violate existing laws is illegal and not recognized as a religious right nor freedom. All arguments brought and argued against democratic laws have been repeatedly been upheld for over 125 years of legal challenges and repeated rulings.

  319. al – you have to remember that warren had been locked up for almost 2 years at the time of the rescue, so lots of those in the 12 – 17 range were spared. it is those in the 15 – 19 range who were caught up in warren’s scheme. all of the victims would fall in that age range. just because they had already had their 18th birthday at the time of the raid doesn’t make them any less of an underage victim.

  320. Anon 1:29 said: Who give’s a rat’s behind what Vulture thinks? And why are we actually talking to Alinusara? If you notice, there was a productive conversation and links being shared and then….bam….we started banging Alin on the head instead.

    Exactly. That’s what happens when you feed the troll. Always.

    You could go back into any of the other Open Discussions here and find the same diversions and distractions. It may be time for LadySadie’s list again …

  321. Stamp,
    What do you think Huge Ego was suggesting in his post ?
    sounds like violence to me.

    Well, apparently his church felt the same way. The pastor said about his words, “they are so incredibly inflammatory that it has raised even more serious concerns about you. You sound like a very angry man.”

    They booted him but were willing to let him come back if he will “will repent of (his) errors and publicly repudiate them.”

    Odds of Huge McEgo admitting he’s wrong and repudiating anything – probably pretty much zero.

  322. And again I smack myself upside the head….don’t feed the troll, don’t feed the troll, don’t feed the troll…..hopefully I will remember that.

    I know how you feel, it’s just they’re sometimes just so trollish that you end up throwing them a bone. Put yeah, keep repeating that. And if you feed them, best do some cleansing ritual.

  323. Returned by Special Request (here you go TexaxConnie)

    Please feel free to add suggestions.

    Deer Do It List
    1. But it’s legal in France at 13 (Whoops , those darn French changed the legal age of consent to 15. Those Frenchies they must have thought the FLDS would move to France and just to persecute those holy FLDS people changed the age all of a sudden in…..1945!)
    2. How do you know they really had sex just because there’s a baby?
    3. DNA isn’t conclusive.
    4. But other people get teenagers pregnant and they don’t go to jail! It’s not fair!
    5. America’s high schools corrupt children and give them condoms!
    6. But they consented and so did their parents, so it can’t be wrong.
    7. They changed the law just to get them (even though the girl is 12 and would be jail bait regardless).
    8. Jurisdiction! Sure she’s got a baby, but you don’t know where it was actually conceived. Just because they got married and live together at the ranch doesn’t mean anything. They could have driven to Reno, had sex, and driven back. And that makes it moral and all as well as legal.
    9. It can’t be illegal cause Holy Father tells uncle warren what to say.
    10. The children are more likely to be assaulted by CPS than by their husbands!
    11. The Virgin Mary was only 13.
    12. It’s natural. Teenagers are better at childbirth than older women anyway.
    13. Our ancestors did it. Why, 150 years ago, this was normal.
    14. They have all those hormones stirring up in them and it’s better to get them married off early to an older man who can support them than to let them and their illegitimate kids live in poverty and shame.
    15. It’s Flora’s fault.
    16. It’s Carolyn’s fault.
    17. It’s Dan Fischer’s fault.
    18. It’s Flora’s and Carolyn’s fault!
    19. A grand jury can indict a ham sandwich!
    20. It’s genocide!
    21. The CPS is in cahoots with the Southern Baptists!
    22. You’re all Nazis!
    23. First Amendment, Freedom of Religion, Press, Assembly!
    24. Fourth Amendment, Unreasonable Search and Seizure, Warrants!
    25. Fifth Amendment, Indictments, Due Process, Self-Incrimination!
    26. Sixth Amendment, Fair and Speedy Trial!
    27. Eighth Amendment, Excessive Bail!
    28. The Judge is in cahoots with CPS (She should be disbarred, run out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, how dare she)
    29. The whole system is unfair because it is run by a bunch of lesbian menopausal hysterical women who can’t be fair to the FLDS.
    30. It’s all Malonis’ fault!
    31. We are unaware of any underage marriages here.

    32. Although spiritual marriages (may) occur, they are not necessarily consummated until the girls are of age.

    33. A girl’s greatest calling is to be a sister wife and Mother (sometimes all of the above at the same time, depending on who she marries, grandfather, uncle, brother, [step]dad).

    34. Three raids on three polygamists groups in 6 months is a conspiracy to take down Mitt Romney.

    35. “I don’t understand why she was taken away from me.”

    36. Polygamy is needed because there are two percent more women than men, and without a husband, those women would live in poverty.

    37. Deer do it.
    38. Its all a plot because CPS needed blonde-haired, blue-eyed baby’s to sell.
    39. She could have gotten impregnated with a turkey baster.
    40. Warren can change DNA by reassigning families.
    41. Somewhere on the internet there is a list of statistics that have absolutely nothing to do with anything, so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls and everyone should just shut up about it.
    42. BAPTIST BUSES, BAPTIST BUSES, BAPTIST BUSES.
    43. 30 years ago some baby died in Ireland so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls.
    44. I’ve been her step-father for eight years, she owes me.
    45. I have married her two older sisters and given her nephew and nieces, it’s all in the family now.
    46. It’s not my fault, her mother was reassigned to me then she began to ovulate.
    47. She’s my 24th wife and I am 62 years old her wifely duties will be easier if compared to a mother wife.
    48. This is Gentile persecution because monogamy leaves their gentlemen sex obsessed and jealous.
    49. Her mother liked me so much as a reassigned husband, she insisted that I marry her daughter, I was just trying to be a good provider.
    50. “The dictations may not be correct. A girl’s diary I violated had her lying in it”
    51. Wisan is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
    52. Walther is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
    53. Denise Lindberg is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
    54. New from Raymond Jessop’s trial – FLDS girls are sluts and will have sex with anyone.
    55. Also new from Raymond Jessop’s trial – My FLDS brothers are scumbags and are having sex with my wives.
    56. The governor should have called Warren Jeffs personally and explained any law of the state that “might” affect the FLDS.
    57. For every conviction, there will be ten more to take our place
    58. It’s all Dr. Beall’s fault.
    59. They are all false memories, that’s not really a baby you see.
    60. Because the FLDS Trolls want to divert attention away from illegal acts.
    61. And last but not least, it’s holy to us because it’s part of our religion.

  324. Who give’s a rat’s behind what Vulture thinks?

    Well, probably no one, but it is good evidence of the sort of wack jobs that support the FLDS.

  325. ProudTexan: i want to see sally jeffs nielsen or whatever her name is this week admit that she didn’t just give 1 daughter to underage marriage, she gave 3 and was probably would have given a 4th if warren hadn’t been arrested. the one just younger than l jeffs jessop would have been close to warren’s favorite age.

    ………………………

    Time for another documentary: “Lying for the Lord”

  326. its a continuing saga mouse.

  327. KING: Esther, where’s your husband?

    ESTHER: My children are in that pavilion and my interest is to get them out of the pavilion. I would like…

    KING: Where is your husband?

    ……………………

    Yeah, where were the husbands? Almost all the interviews were just the mothers. Out in the “real” world, when something happens to a child, usually the parents appear together in front of the press.

    Of course the reason is because the first question a reporter would ask a husband is “Have you ever had sex with a minor?”

    Guess they’ve got something to hide. What a bunch of pussies they all are.

  328. Alin: I’m not sure if taking DNA from both the suspected victim and the innocent newborn is morally right let alone it’s 4th amendment implications.

    ………………………..

    It’s done all the time to establish paternity. Get over it.

  329. For the Deer Do It list:

    How about; “Victim DNA is sacred and private and no one has a right to gather it without permission.”

    😀

  330. Rebeckah how about “Victim DNA is sacred and private and no one has the right to gather it without the PERPETRATORS permission”

  331. LOL! You’re right, Sadie, after all, half of that DNA IS the perpetrator’s.

  332. Alin: I’m troubled by the guise of labeling adult women having childlike state of dependence

    …………………..

    Well then, Alin, you should be championing the cause of women getting college degrees, careers, and incomes of our own before we get married and have children, because that’s how we avoid dependence.

  333. I find it interesting how the “one true restored church” has created so many violent, bloodthirsty criminals. (Brigham Young, Mitchell, Warren Jeffs, the LeBarons, and so on.)

    …………………….

    The Lafferty brothers. Brenda Lafferty and her baby daughter are proof of what happens to women who refuse to accept Joseph Smith’s doctrine of polygamy.

  334. Keep Sweet

    “Stamp,
    What do you think Huge Ego was suggesting in his post ?
    sounds like violence to me.”

    =================

    Indeed, bringing up his Aryan acquaintances, before giving that bit about his “Pasion spilling into the aisles of my Church”

    With the unfortunate spate of nutters doing similar foolish things, it was wise of his Church to ban him from the premises.

    Of course, we’ve seen just yesterday that security wont stop whacks even at a federal courthouse, however the action distances them from him so he can divert his evil attentions elsewhere – which it seems to have.

    He is back into his obsession with Rozita.

  335. why is it that there is so little coverage of the trials and outcomes of the investigation into YFZ Ranch in the national press ?

    ………………………

    There were reports in the Seattle Times, but it isn’t big news here. You may have heard, lately we have been dealing with the assassinations of half a dozen law enforcement officers.

    The anti-law enforcement movement won’t find much support in Seattle these days.

  336. Ladysadie-

    Thanks, once again!

    Ron –

    Thanks for pulling up the response of the church.

    Adding to your guess that chances of his repentance are zero, methinks you nailed it, he gave a rambling gassy retort that proved his rebellion.

  337. 62. The cows are sacred and “irreplaceable.” FREE THEM!!!

  338. 63. If polygamy were legal, Tiger Woods wouldn’t have cheated on his wife with various and assorted cocktail waitresses and porn actresses.

    (I can’t take credit for this, I think I read it in the Trib comments)

  339. 64) 12 and 13 year olds are liable to start having sex spontaneously.

    To keep them holy, they are hooked up and married to a well matured grandfatherly type.

  340. 64. On the steps of the Schleicher County Courthouse, Willie R. Jessop proclaimed that sexual assault charges against nine (9)FLDS members was a ‘victimless’ because no female child was witnessing to the attack. No, sorry Willie the State of Texas formed a San Angelo Grand Jury, specifically designed to bring felony charges, when a crime was suspected and enough proof was presented to make the charges likely to bring a conviction, so far 2 for 2 and counting. You can let the victims come out of the ‘Houses of Hiding’ because their testimonies aren’t prerequisite to a Jury(s) conviction verdict.

  341. Al, are you really SBC, too? My husband is a retired SBC pastor in the southeast. So many slams against the Baptists lately. Kind of emberassing, isnt it? I havent been following these websites too much lately, but remain concerned about this whole situation. There is no way to miss the information that has surfaced, but I do think that there are some very devout FLDS people who want to live godly lives and have been terribly hurt and disappointed, if not outright deceived. I keep praying that they will be strong and seek God’s truth, not man’s. And that is not an easy thing for any of us to do.

  342. Does anyone besides me wonder just how many women within the FLDS truly despise the men and simply pretend to “keep sweet” to keep their children and families?

  343. Gee, Linda, ya ought to trot on over to the SLTRIB, 40unmarried says that if you arent giving your little girls up to the Prophut you arent with the program and lose your right to your home.

    And no, Al is no SBC member.

    He’s pulling your leg.

    He’s trolling for ya.

  344. http://flds101.blogspot.com/ Wow. As usual, fascinating and well written.

    What a sneaky little trick Uncle Warren has come up with: heads I win, tails you lose.

    “The world is going to end tomorrow! All the evil gentiles will be destroyed.”

    Tomorrow comes. World doesn’t end.

    “That was just a test, to see how you would behave when told the world is going to end tomorrow.”

    What a shame, so many people have followed this psychopath down into his twisted rabbit hole.

  345. OK, by popular demand, REVISED 1/5/2010

    Deer Do It List
    1. But it’s legal in France at 13 (Whoops , those darn French changed the legal age of consent to 15. Those Frenchies they must have thought the FLDS would move to France and just to persecute those holy FLDS people changed the age all of a sudden in…..1945!)
    2. How do you know they really had sex just because there’s a baby?
    3. DNA isn’t conclusive.
    4. But other people get teenagers pregnant and they don’t go to jail! It’s not fair!
    5. America’s high schools corrupt children and give them condoms!
    6. But they consented and so did their parents, so it can’t be wrong.
    7. They changed the law just to get them (even though the girl is 12 and would be jail bait regardless).
    8. Jurisdiction! Sure she’s got a baby, but you don’t know where it was actually conceived. Just because they got married and live together at the ranch doesn’t mean anything. They could have driven to Reno, had sex, and driven back. And that makes it moral and all as well as legal.
    9. It can’t be illegal cause Holy Father tells uncle warren what to say.
    10. The children are more likely to be assaulted by CPS than by their husbands!
    11. The Virgin Mary was only 13.
    12. It’s natural. Teenagers are better at childbirth than older women anyway.
    13. Our ancestors did it. Why, 150 years ago, this was normal.
    14. They have all those hormones stirring up in them and it’s better to get them married off early to an older man who can support them than to let them and their illegitimate kids live in poverty and shame.
    15. It’s Flora’s fault.
    16. It’s Carolyn’s fault.
    17. It’s Dan Fischer’s fault.
    18. It’s Flora’s and Carolyn’s fault!
    19. A grand jury can indict a ham sandwich!
    20. It’s genocide!
    21. The CPS is in cahoots with the Southern Baptists!
    22. You’re all Nazis!
    23. First Amendment, Freedom of Religion, Press, Assembly!
    24. Fourth Amendment, Unreasonable Search and Seizure, Warrants!
    25. Fifth Amendment, Indictments, Due Process, Self-Incrimination!
    26. Sixth Amendment, Fair and Speedy Trial!
    27. Eighth Amendment, Excessive Bail!
    28. The Judge is in cahoots with CPS (She should be disbarred, run out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, how dare she)
    29. The whole system is unfair because it is run by a bunch of lesbian menopausal hysterical women who can’t be fair to the FLDS.
    30. It’s all Malonis’ fault!
    31. We are unaware of any underage marriages here.

    32. Although spiritual marriages (may) occur, they are not necessarily consummated until the girls are of age.

    33. A girl’s greatest calling is to be a sister wife and Mother (sometimes all of the above at the same time, depending on who she marries, grandfather, uncle, brother, [step]dad).

    34. Three raids on three polygamists groups in 6 months is a conspiracy to take down Mitt Romney.

    35. “I don’t understand why she was taken away from me.”

    36. Polygamy is needed because there are two percent more women than men, and without a husband, those women would live in poverty.

    37. Deer do it.
    38. Its all a plot because CPS needed blonde-haired, blue-eyed baby’s to sell.
    39. She could have gotten impregnated with a turkey baster.
    40. Warren can change DNA by reassigning families.
    41. Somewhere on the internet there is a list of statistics that have absolutely nothing to do with anything, so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls and everyone should just shut up about it.
    42. BAPTIST BUSES, BAPTIST BUSES, BAPTIST BUSES.
    43. 30 years ago some baby died in Ireland so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls.
    44. I’ve been her step-father for eight years, she owes me.
    45. I have married her two older sisters and given her nephew and nieces, it’s all in the family now.
    46. It’s not my fault, her mother was reassigned to me then she began to ovulate.
    47. She’s my 24th wife and I am 62 years old her wifely duties will be easier if compared to a mother wife.
    48. This is Gentile persecution because monogamy leaves their gentlemen sex obsessed and jealous.
    49. Her mother liked me so much as a reassigned husband, she insisted that I marry her daughter, I was just trying to be a good provider.
    50. “The dictations may not be correct. A girl’s diary I violated had her lying in it”
    51. Wisan is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
    52. Walther is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
    53. Denise Lindberg is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
    54. New from Raymond Jessop’s trial – FLDS girls are sluts and will have sex with anyone.
    55. Also new from Raymond Jessop’s trial – My FLDS brothers are scumbags and are having sex with my wives.
    56. The governor should have called Warren Jeffs personally and explained any law of the state that “might” affect the FLDS.
    57. For every conviction, there will be ten more to take our place
    58. It’s all Dr. Beall’s fault.
    59. They are all false memories, that’s not really a baby you see.
    60. Because the FLDS Trolls want to divert attention away from illegal acts.
    61. If polygamy were legal, Tiger Woods wouldn’t have cheated on his wife with various and assorted cocktail waitresses and porn actresses.
    62. According to Wee Willie Jessop: “Sexual assault of a child is a “victimless” crime, we are being persecuted.”
    63. 12 and 13 year olds are liable to start having sex spontaneously. To keep them holy, they are hooked up and married to a well matured already married grandfatherly type.
    64. The cows are sacred and “irreplaceable.” FREE THE COWS!!!
    65. And last but not least, it’s holy to us because it’s part of our religion.

  346. I especially like #29, 37 and 42. Nice!

  347. Linda Lamb you claimed to be knowlegeable about the FLDS Church and the Prophet? How is it you don’t understand that they see themselves as God’s righteous and Warren S. Jeffs gives them a direct contact with God. These people are following,”God’s truth” just ask Warren, he’s a little indisposed right now with all the persecutions over a incarceration conviction, pending charges of accomplice, Federal Flight and sexual assault but he is in direct contact, no mere mortal men or false prophet, he’s bonafide man of God. You need to ‘Keep Sweet’ and not harbor so many doubts.

  348. 66. It will cost Texas too much money to uphold their laws. Eventually the FLDS will win the right to sexually assault children because Texas will run out of money.

    😉

  349. 67. Because Texas is dominated by KKK bigots, or alternatively, Texas is dominated by anti-white bigots.

  350. 67. It’s just a waste of time and money to prosecute FLDS because God told Uncle Warren all the evil gentiles will soon be wiped off the earth.

  351. Oh yeah, anti-white bigots, or in code, those that dont approve of the Aryan Nation Hitler programs?

  352. caJim, You say I “claimed to be knowlegeable about the FLDS Church and the Prophet”? No. I did not. I have read with interest and concern about these people and have seen a gentleness and kindness in them. I make no excuses for any breaking of the law or misrepresenting of the truth. Yet I think it is sad that they are afraid to be open. I cannot agree with anything I have read about their prophet or any Mormon prophets or any modern day prophets. Nor do I think any minister or pastor or pope is to be adored and blindly followed. It is the Lord only that I believe in and try to serve.

  353. Brooke has a new blog format. She allows one of her posters to call Carolyn Jessop “a whore.” As a journalist, Brooke must realize that is libel.

  354. Linda

    I think most people find it sad that while the FLDS women on one hand seem faithful and demure, on the other hand they allow their children to be molested no questions asked.

    Pretty sad place to be if ya ask me.

    On one hand I pity them, on the other, question why they are not prosecuted. There are women who deserve both I’m sure, and its too bad they are all left adrift in that sea.

  355. Mouse

    I missed that, which thread and poster?

  356. “No. I did not. I have read with interest and concern about these people and have seen a gentleness and kindness in them.”

    Which part is gentle and kind? The part where they lie about their children “needing” them (when many of the women saying so had left behind numerous children in Short Creek) or the part where they give their underage daughters to men old enough to be their fathers and grandfathers in marriage? How about the kindness Annette, Warren and the Doctor showed in keeping a 16 year old girl in hard labor away from the hospital so her husband wouldn’t be arrested for illegally impregnating her? And, of course, there’s the fantastic parenting example of kicking out children as young as thirteen for failing to live up to impossible standards.

    Yes, Linda, they put on a good act but if you scratch the surface there is a cesspool of bigotry, intolerance and very basic UN-kindness.

  357. I take it Linda you have never read Ruth on texaspolygamy.blogspot.com?

    A short snip:

    “They always protected the men. If a man did wrong, they shake hands with them and they walk away. There life is not tarnished. If a girl does wrong they target her until she goes to the media or drops dead. My people owe me a debt. They owe me a debt, for they protected the grossest men and did every thing humanly possible to destroy me”

    ….. Ruth, from inside the FLDS in Colorado City AZ

    \

  358. Or this heart felt missive from Ruth:

    “I know that what Warren Jeffs and Lyle Jeffs pretend to stand on is true.

    I know what is taught in the Book of Mormon is true; I kno what the Bible teaches is true; but his people do not live it.

    I know that the man I married is a crimnal of the blackest kind, and there-fore I can not Blame Lyle Jeffs; but he did not care about the truth and I have come to realize that no one cared and all it was about is destroying lifes any how.

    I can not go to hell.

    I was born there.

    and they can not ever hurt me again.

    Them and there devil’s.”

  359. I got kind of lost in Brooke’s blog’s comments and didn’t realize I was reading from January 2009.

    No wonder Flora carries a gun. The hatred spewed against her, Carolyn and Elissa is mindboggling.

  360. Did anyone understand what the carrion eater meant by what it said?

  361. Yes, Anon E Mouse. And like the choice to allow a 16 year old girl and her unborn child die in labor to protect the man who broke the law to impregnate her, it truly reveals just how little these religious goons think of women.

  362. All I read from him, Madam Nun, was that he wasn’t being a “troll”. I personally thought the post I read from him should have been ended with “neener, neener, neener”. He might be an intelligent person, but he has the emotional range of a 12 year old.

  363. texaspolygamy.blogspot.com

    I just took a look at this blog. Is this the Ruth who has been mentioned here before? Is she the one writing all the Anonymous posts? They are very strange and anguished, and the writer seems to be a little . . .unstable – unless it’s a hoax or a spoof.

  364. Yes, Aon E Mouse, that is the website and poster Stamp refers to from time to time. As I understand it, Ruth is one of the women of the Crick who has diminished mental capacity for some reason (that I don’t know) but was married off and expected to produce babies anyway. She’s been dreadfully mistreated however you look at it. The abuse isn’t just confined to children, they’re taking advantage of and abusing children with disabilities too.

  365. Ruth Cooke’s father was Jack Cooke.

    “He said at the time he didn’t view his fondling of his daughters as abuse. It wasn’t sexual, he said, claiming it was ‘on the same premise as our religion.'”

    “He compared his position to a farmer with his animals….”

    “I’d say it was consensual, whatever we were doing. I was not imposing on them.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1672757&page=1

    http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=1679705

  366. Willie Jessop has a cameo appearance in the first part of the 2006 Primetime video.

  367. More on Jack Cooke:

    “When the girls began talking to each other about the advances, they realized each was not alone. Together, they told their brothers, who helped turn Cooke over to authorities. He was convicted in 1983 of sexual assault and sentenced to five years in prison.

    ‘We were looked down on in the community because we did that,” Jessop said. “The majority (of men) believed they had that right. It was pretty rampant in the community.'”

    http://www.childbrides.org/sex_SAST_shrouded_in_secrecy.html

  368. after jack was exed, richard henry (dick) cooke got all of jack’s wives and kids. ruth was married to a shelly gene cooke. laurene was married to val jessop who died of a heart attack not to terribly long ago.

  369. Big difference in the way the FLDS treat the media from that 2006 Video and now, LOL. Wee Willie ordering them off the property and one of those “Keep Sweet” women telling them to “go to hell”.

  370. man, what a mouth on that woman, but you know, if abc or any other news organization showed up at the gates today, they be given much the same reception. the flds only want the press when they can use them.

  371. “We are a peaceful people.”

  372. LadySadie, gotta add that one to the list: “We are a peaceful people.” (repeat ad nauseum)

  373. Might add “just go to…hades” too.

  374. Brought to you by the only newspaper with a full-time reporter on the polygamy beat…

    What I consider to be some of the greatest hits of the mamas (this includes Marie’s great drama at the pole which also netted Trent Head some prestigious awards from his peers) are in this clip from the first photo op and mix and mingle ice cream social press conference.

    After viewing the drama at the pole, go back and rewatch the video I posted January 3 at 7:30 pm. It is the ABC reporter asking Merilyn and Sally the questions they could not answer and the same where he talks to Marie about “Keep Sweet.”

    Both videos were shot at the same photo op.

    Quite a range.

    “Keep Sweet!”

  375. For a people who have been preached at over and over about the impending ‘end of the earth’ and ‘the wicked will be swept away’ and prepared for destruction, in addition to them being self suffienct and able to live off the land etc.,
    …one would think these women would act more resilent, tougher. Rather than act like whilted flowers

    Ha, maybe indictments on a few of these pimp mothers would toughen them up?

  376. From the San Angelo ST, March 29, 2009.

    http://m.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/mar/29/shaken/

    ————-
    Her daughter LaNan, 7, was on the cover of People magazine this month.

    Nancy and Bob Barlow tease the girl. She’s the most famous student in school, they say.
    ————–

    Nancy and Bob Barlow as in the parents of Allen Keate’s victim — M.R. Barlow (aka Allred) Jeffs Keate — who was first married at the age of 14 to LeRoy Jeffs on 7-22-2004 (the triple header with 3 14-year-old brides and one 13-year-old almost a bride) and then reassigned to Keate ten months later at the age of 15.

    The “silly” young child who resisted.

    —————
    “No one is forced into marriage,” Nancy Barlow said.

    Nevertheless, Bob Barlow said, girls have rejected appointed suitors without being blackballed or turned out of the group.

    “A lot of that is misconception that has been brought about by the media and those who hate the FLDS,” he said.
    ————–

    Did he say media misconception?

    And another riff about cows. Seems Judge Walther, Rick Perry, Flora, Carolyn, Elissa et. al. killed two cows at YFZ.

    A rare interview with Merril (but no questions to be asked about his criminal charge) where he talks about what he seems to value most…

    Money.

    And…

    “…an ever-chirruping cell phone that he checks frequently.”

  377. Merril insinuated that the state of Texas did not pay their share of the costs to return the children to YFZ after the Texas Supreme Court upheld the 3rd COA.

    Say Merril…how are those child support payments going?

    Merril was also whiny in his deposition about Raymond not kicking in his fair share to help support Merril’s brood like his brothers were doing.

  378. “Just go to hell!”

    Didn’t I read that somewhere recently?

    “Go to hell, OL!”

    Oh, yeah.

    Straight from the Hostess I-yearn-to-be-sweetness-and-light Twinkie.

    Keep Sweet!

  379. Well then, Alin, you should be championing the cause of women getting college degrees, careers, and incomes of our own before we get married and have children, because that’s how we avoid dependence.
    ============================================
    If that is what they want to do I’ve always supported that, In fact, donated time and money to scholarship programs. Btw yep, I’m Southern Baptist.

  380. hey twist – keep sweet today!!!

  381. Hey Al

    How about that Tony Alamo guy huh? He really rang the bell!

    175 years

    Gives the FLDS something to look up to! He owns the CellOSteel Kingdom lock stock and Barrel!

  382. Always, PT.

  383. Help !!!
    Honey Dawn has been threatened with blood atonement ! Help !

  384. Linda Lambkins your judgment on appearance of a perceived,’gentleness and kindness in them’. Really? You seem to judge a group now convicted of multiple verdicts of underage sexual assault as being kind and gentle? Maybe you spoke too soon and are not informed enough on “Keep Sweet”, blood atonement tenet, ‘Lost Boys’ verdicts, shunning or the Prophet Warren S. Jeffs teachings, convictions and charges to state your uninformed impression.

    When are you going to share your views with Bill Medvecky and his posters on our shortcomings or is that, again, just your first impressions. Maybe the recent convictions and high likelihood of more felony convictions has caused you to mollify your misinformed impression. The degree of indoctrination of these fanatical sect members begins at birth and lasts as long as they remain members or until they are rejected by their leadership. You with more knowledge will revise your views because things are not as they appear on first light when dealing with the FLDS Church, their leaders nor congregation. You seem to have been snookered.

  385. I think it’s the 2nd time you mentioned Tony Alamo Stamp. Yes he was sentenced to 175 years.

  386. I dunno Cajim. Louise Jessop seemed rather kind and gentle to me.

  387. Isn’t Louisa Jessop the one “married” to Dan Jessop of Diddling Dan fame? The ones that lived in the Merril/Babs Jessop but under oath in court she doesn’t know the names of anyone living in the same house as her, the ones shown pictures of warren sucking faces with 12 year old Merrianne on their “wedding day”, the one that says under oath in court that warren is “perfect”. Yea real kind and gentle, NOT.

  388. “I dunno Cajim. Louise Jessop seemed rather kind and gentle to me.”

    Why do people whine about generalizing the FLDS as criminals with mounds of evidence about multiple leaders in the group breaking the laws of the land, but then try to generalize based on the actions of one, or two, hey, maybe even 10, individuals that they think are positive. So if Lousie Jessop comes across as kind and gentle then the FLDS in general are kind and gentle? Kind of a HUGE double standard there.

  389. Sadie, so “kind and gentle” Lousia KNEW that a 12 year old girl had been married to a man old enough to be her grandfather and she did nothing to try and protect this girl? She didn’t notify any authorities? Didn’t try to rescue the girl? Nothing?

    Not terribly kind towards that 12 year old girl, was she?

  390. Lousie Jessop comes across as kind and gentle then the FLDS in general are kind and general? Kind of a HUGE double standard there.
    ———————————————
    Not really Rebeckah. People try to generalize the actions of the members of the FLDS, what is it about 10,000?, due to the actions of 12 indicted men. I’m just following the logic to it’s conclusion.

    Sadie, so “kind and gentle” Lousia KNEW that a 12 year old girl had been married to a man old enough to be her grandfather and she did nothing to try and protect this girl? She didn’t notify any authorities? Didn’t try to rescue the girl? Nothing?

    Not terribly kind towards that 12 year old girl, was she?
    ========================================================
    Not really Rebeckah, If you remember right at the time of the raid Louise was just barely 18. Even if she knew anything, which we are not sure about, at the time of the alleged marriages Louise was just a kid herself.

  391. …the one that says under oath in court that warren is “perfect”. Yea real kind and gentle, NOT.
    ==================================================
    Leaving the rest of your argument alone for the moment that is some strange reasoning. If I was to say under oath that in my opinion Warren Jeffs, or anyone else for that matter, was perfect, I’m automatically not kind and gentle?

  392. A-li-n, if you were to say that warren jeffs was perfect you would be delusional, off to the nuthouse for you!

  393. Hehe! I don’t know the gentleman but I would hazard a guess that he’s definitely not perfect.

  394. Wee Willie ordering them off the property

    ………………………

    Wee Willie and the cops seem to be ordering them off a public street. Can you imagine that happening in your town – the cops pulling people over without any probable cause?

    Again with the hypocrisy – the FLDS crying about their rights being violated by Texas LE, while their own private police force had been doing it for years in Colorado City.

  395. Merril Jessop was a teenager then [1953 raid], so he was left alone. This time, however, he has been indicted by a Schleicher County grand jury and accused of partaking in a ceremony that wed his 12-year-old daughter to Jeffs. He has become a central figure.

    “We’ve been through so much of this,” he said, “this people over the past 150 years.”

    ………………………..

    Oh the poor, persecuted FLDS. Polygamy is against the law. Grown men having sex with minors is against the law.

    If you can’t do the time, then don’t do the crime.

  396. I would like to observe that the deaf and dumb are very ‘kind and gentle’ but they are sight impaired and have a loss of hearing that might explain their condition and appearance. Likesame, the FLDS Church women and children are raised in an environment that teaches them to ‘Keep Sweet’ which means to hold their emotions in check and accept unpleasant circumstances but especially don’t question their leadership, church and ‘perfect’ prophet. Yes, they do appear to appeal to their kinder and gentler natures but does that reflect a normal state of being or just a fully indoctrinated fanatic? Also, like the sight impaired and hard of hearing the FLDS women and children make no testimony of wrong doing, acts of abuse or witness to any criminal acts within their congregation, regardless of how many charges, accusations or verdicts are brought. Does this fact seem at odds with normally sighted and full auditory individuals that haven’t observed any criminal behaviors, even though pregnant teens are in their midst, babies are being mothered by ‘Child Brides’ and Priesthood men have girls living within their households who are not their daughters. Seems to be an inordinate lack of observation to not notice any of these acts at the YFZ Ranch and not be noticed/observed? Maybe they all need to get hearing and sight check-ups to insure their not impaired or are we being asked to be more gullible that they are being truthful with us?

  397. I have my computer back! Happy, happy, joy, joy!

    Not sure why I am zenmistress instead of Betty, but I’ll keep working on that.

  398. Testing, 1, 2, 3….

  399. still zenmistress, but the cute pic is back.

  400. “Leaving the rest of your argument alone for the moment that is some strange reasoning. If I was to say under oath that in my opinion Warren Jeffs, or anyone else for that matter, was perfect, I’m automatically not kind and gentle?”

    If you support someone who is as cruel and heartless as Warren Jeffs then you show a rather large cruel and heartless streak yourself. However no one fits one narrow description all the time. Louisa is most likely kind and gentle sometimes and nasty and harsh other times.

  401. So, we like this picture better than the medieval dancer? More appropriate to this crowd, I guess.

  402. Good to see you back, Betty!

  403. hey twist, maybe we need to take a road trip to colorado city/hildale to see if we would be welcome.

  404. hey twist, maybe we need to take a road trip to colorado city/hildale to see if we would be welcome.

    Geez, I can see it now. I’ve yet to hear any outsider who said they felt “welcome” in the creek.

  405. we’ll take signs that say “texas rocks”, that ought to get us a really warm welcome.

  406. Yeah and some Don’t Mess With Texas ones too.

  407. that too granny

  408. I’ll provide the bail money when the polygamist police decide to run you in for some made up violation.

  409. Tell me when, I’m up for a road trip! 😀

  410. hey twist, maybe we need to take a road trip to colorado city/hildale to see if we would be welcome.

    ……………………………

    They couldn’t keep the Google maps “street view” cameras out. You can “drive” all over town. It’s an interesting mix of single family homes, trailer parks, and vacant lots. To me, the whole town looks weedy and unkempt.

    And where the heck is everybody – it’s like a ghost town. Did they tell everybody to hide inside when the camera vehicle came through? When you go to street view in other towns, you’ll see traffic, bicycles, pedestrians . . . .

    I’m surprised that Google photo’d almost every street in Hildale/Colorado City, because it’s so remote. To compare, in many similar sized and even larger cities in Eastern Washington they only took the street view cameras down the main drag.

  411. It’s funny how wack jobs react to the Google street view car. I guess Jaycee Dugard’s kidnapper decided he needed to tail it. I guess Willie told the FLDS to run and hide lest Google steal their souls.

  412. I’m up for it, PT.

    Anyone have a Thelma and Louise type convertible they would be willing to loan to us?

  413. Won’t we need more than one?

  414. A caravan.

    I like it.

  415. let’s get a stretch limo with sun roofs.

    and ron, just send your credit card.

  416. Don’t forget to wear your short, shorts and halter tops!

  417. Ron: It’s funny how wack jobs react to the Google street view car. I guess Jaycee Dugard’s kidnapper decided he needed to tail it.
    ……………………

    He must have been freaked that now everybody would be able to what was under those blue tarps.

    Jaycee was legally an adult when she was rescued, so she could have CHOSEN to leave at any time, right Alin? Your whole “defense” of the situation at YFZ is that the girls and women are free to leave at any time, so there are no victims.

    Why didn’t she leave, Alin? And why didn’t Elizabeth Smart just walk away when she had the chance?

    You just don’t get it, do you. The requirement that women submit to men, whether by a government or religion, is a human rights violation.

  418. I don’t know it this has already been posted because I am 2 days behind reading this blog.

    Original videos of the Larry King Live interviews can be found here:
    TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT http://www.voxantshop.com

  419. Scantily clad is the only way to go, Sadie.

    And in red, of course.

    I would promise to clean up my language while in their towns, but I see that doesn’t set me too far apart from at least one of their ladies.

    Love the stretch limo idea, PT.

  420. i’m thinking those little hand held bullhorns for our chorus act. the limo could stop and we could all climb out on the roof and perform, make em come out of the houses so we can see the whites of their eyes. it will be an experience not to be missed.

  421. Kinda like singing telegrams?

    Duduh dudut dut duh

    Your profit’s in the clink
    His plan for you is rolled in stink

    Educate your girls and boys
    Let them outside to play with toys …

  422. i love it huesos. want to join our parade?

  423. Oh yeah. On my motorcycle that’s green like a pickle, or hmmm maybe the red atv?

  424. I don’t want a pickle I just want to ride my motory cy

    kl

  425. Thanks all for your kind replies. Glad you enjoy the articles. I’ve posted the next in my series. This article explains how Warren from prison worked to regain his position as prophet in the eyes of his people. See: http://flds101.blogspot.com/2009/05/flds-history-101-becoming-prophet-again.html

  426. Hey FLDS101, your blog is incredible. I know for reasons of personal safety you can’t reveal your identity – which in itself is an indictment of what kind of people we are talking about – but maybe some day you will have that safety and freedom.

  427. I’ve been through Shortcrik but in regular vehicles and no red dress. And some other places like in the AZ strip. Yes TX license plates get watched real closely. They don’t want nobody escapin’ ya know.

  428. Just in case anyone want to go incognito – drive a semi. That’s the standard route for running the Arizona scales. They usually ignore them.

  429. I don’t want a pickle…

  430. Thank you, TexasTwist, that was a blast from the past.

  431. i kinda thought maybe we’d put a sign called “freedom mobile” on our vehicle.

  432. You could stop at the public park for a picnic and then go and lay flowers at the public cemetary

  433. I wonder how many “just go to hell”s we’ll get?

  434. I like Ruth’s

    “I cant go to Hell

    I was born there”

  435. “…Just in case anyone want to go incognito – drive a semi.”

    That would be me.

    I’ll be the one in the Special Edition Kenworth W900L with the studio sleeper and the coolest chicken lights.

    Betcha I can get those FLDS drivers to talk to me at the fuel islands along I-40.

    Anyone qualified to be a co-driver?

    I’ll need a second log book.

  436. ruth’s answer is classic.

    i’m not qualified, but the flds won’t know the difference, so i’ll ride shotgun

  437. this thing about the temple being sacred and no longer usable is laughable. isn’t a temple built to worship God? if so then why is it ruined? the temple in jerusalam wasn’t ruined when Jesus ran the merchant’s out. i’m missing something somewhere.

  438. We can backhaul out of Henderson, Nevada and proceed the caravan over Hoover Dam. We’ll stop in Kingman to see if Warren would welcome us all at his guest quarters for a visit from the Texas neighbors.

    Any other sights y’all want to see between there and here on the return trip?

  439. is the grand canyon close by?

  440. If an LDS temple was to be “desecrated”. the temple would be thoroughly cleaned and then be rededicated for it’s original purpose. There is more than the LE entering the flds temple that keeps them from using it.

  441. you mean the temple bed that the groundskeeper used for sleeping. i’m thinking muddy boots would ruin the white decor

  442. Say, should I bring my Hummer limo?

    Its got 4 sunroofs and a big boombox with exterior speakers.

    Lotsa RAP music.

    Trailer hitch, to pull parade float stuff like Gardner beds and sech.

    Plus my cows have been trained to follow it.

    Holy sacred cow pie! Its the FLDS story rolled up in one!

  443. K-dub. Un huh! Yeah baby. Not qualified as a second driver, but if you run it through the gears, then drop the air ride down, I’ll steer!

    On yeah and….Leave the Jake brake on in town. LOL.

  444. sounds great stamp.

  445. Stamp, is that music “pingy-pangy?” If you’ve got the gardener’s bed behind the Hummer, can you back up?

    Texans plan well. We don’t want to go off like a monkey with a hand grenade.

  446. this thing about the temple being sacred and no longer usable is laughable. isn’t a temple built to worship God? if so then why is it ruined? the temple in jerusalam wasn’t ruined when Jesus ran the merchant’s out. i’m missing something somewhere.

    …………………

    Have you noticed how much the temple looks like a medieval castle, with the towers and parapets? Weren’t parapets designed to protect the king’s archers as they fired down on the enemy below?

  447. With the Lyin FLDS motion about Sacred Cows and all, the world now can see that the

    FLDS stands for

    BULL S**T

  448. Big Willie: “If you don’t milk it, it’s a use it or lose it.”

    Yeah, I’d say the FLDS has a lot of similarties in how they view their different breeding stock.

  449. Twist

    On the return trip one should see the LDS Temple in St. George.

    The oldest standing (currently used by LDS) Temple in the world.

    One whose architechture the FLDS seem to have stolen.

    Picture:

  450. The Temple was desecrated because only the chosen are clean, pure and deserving enough to have entered upon the premises. The Temple is God’s House where He dwells and the YFZ Ranch was supposedly a proto-type to bone up the ‘templebuilders’ for the ultimate Temple to be erected in New Jerusalem (Independence, MO).

    You have to remember that the ‘EndTime’ is elapsing and Warrenites have to be ready for the curtain call.

  451. What we really need is a NASCAR car hauler behind that K-dub. That way we can rack the T/L convertible and the Hummer limo. In the tool bins we can keep the shorts, halter tops and other necessary items, Tin foil, pingy-pangy music etc. We may have to break down the gardener’s bed to fit the holy cows in.

    Swingin beef can be dangerous, but I’m sure Twist can handle it. We’ll swing though the Grand Canyon north for Proud, maybe picking up some gentile rocks to chunk.

    Up front in the living area we can have the mobile command center. This is shaping up nice.

    We can have the trailer painted with a picture of Natalie Malonis – surrounded by Texas flags and captioned, “In Texas women are more dangerous than rattlesnakes You’re gonna get bit!”

  452. cajIM, I have a question about that. If time is so short, why build a practice temple. Why not just go to Missouri and build the real thing in the real place?

  453. but even the sheeple on the ranch weren’t all allowed to enter the temple, from what i’ve read, most of them weren’t allowed in and only the chosen few were even allowed to clean it. that’s a bunch of hogwash. God doesn’t care who enters his buildings. he wants all the broken, downtrodden, etc to come to him.

  454. CaJim

    Kinda funny, that the FLDS temple at YFZ was built by “The most wicked man on this earth since Adam”

    In his own words.

    DOH!

  455. good question miele. wonder if we could submit it to the mojave county sheriff so he could get an answer from warren for us.

  456. God doesn’t care who enters his buildings. he wants all the broken, downtrodden, etc to come to him.

    ……………………

    That’s the Christian perspective, taken from the New Testament. The FLDS worship the vengeful, wrathful violent God of the Old Testament.

    That’s fine, freedom of religion and all, but the claim that they follow Jesus Christ is distasteful.

    Warren Jeff’s focus on “perfection” is exactly the opposite of what Jesus was trying to tell us. We will never be perfect, but God loves us anyway – that is His gift to us.

  457. Isn’t the YFZ “temple” easier to understand if one uses the word palace intsead?

  458. Isn’t gunite, the swimming pool stuff that’s cement with fiberglas, bulletproof? I don’t think that is useful as mortar for limestone though I have heard of structures being sprayed with it.

  459. As I understand Warren’s ‘EndTime’ teachings there is to be a ‘Lifting Up’ from Earth of all those that will be allowed entry to the New Jerusalem, then they will return with the Almighty and build him His Temple for his residence on Earth and enthronement. Schleicher County is just a practice site to prepare the ‘Templebuilders’ for their future work to establish Zion in this world. When Jesus returns to enact the final judgment He’s going to need a Temple in Independence, MO. Read and Google ‘Milennialism’ which was popularized during Joseph Smith’s lifetime and made a tenet to his teachings.

    Warren is definitely willing to scatter his flock, select a more chosen brethren and abandon those found to be unworthy of Zion at this time.

  460. If you’all haven’t watched these video documentaries that are linked at the Out of Polygamy blog, you really should. They are GREAT and a must watch: http://mormonchallenge.com/

    Evidence, has left no room to believe that Joseph Smith did anything more than create a religious work of fiction. To put it nicely.

  461. but cajim, what happens when all his templebuilders are in jail?

    so joseph smith ranks right up there with L Ron Hubbard.

  462. Here’s an interesting link http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=/eng/search/ancestorsearchresults.asp
    This is the geneology records for Brigham Young and his wives. The family tree.

  463. Sorry, the link only goes to the search page, then type his name.

  464. JanDana, that brings up alot of Brigham Young’s which one is he?

  465. “That’s the Christian perspective, taken from the New Testament. The FLDS worship the vengeful, wrathful violent God of the Old Testament.”
    _____________________________________________________________________

    OK. So are the temples then equipped for animal sacrifices? Are they seeking a perfect red heifer?

  466. The requirement that women submit to men, whether by a government or religion, is a human rights violation.
    =================================================
    Then you have to ban Christianity.

  467. Dammit I hate it when Alin is right!

    Ephesians 5:22-24

    2Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

  468. Those are not the words of Christ, they are the words of Paul.

  469. Those are not the words of Christ, they are the words of Paul.

    Yeah, but they’re in God’s infallible book. God wouldn’t have let it into the book if God didn’t mean it, right?

  470. JonDana,
    I watched the videos you linked to. I found them very interesting. Thank you.

  471. God didn’t let them into the book. The counsel of Nicea, which was called by a pagan emperor let them into the book. But then, I’m an amateur historian. Many Christians have said that they don’t agree with me on that, even here on this blog. However, it’s pretty obvious to me that the way Jesus involved women in his ministry (for lack of a better word) and the way Paul recommends that women be involved in the Church (i.e. silently and submissively) are quite different.

    And I’m quite in favor of banning the use of ANY religion in determining the basis for law.

    Betty aka Zen Mistress

  472. Ron are women and children made out to be property of husbands in Ephesians. Does Ephesians assigned women to a life and existence totally dependent upon a husband to earn their eternal reward? Does Ephesians assign women and their marriage offspring to be no more than the property of their husband(Priesthood)? Doesn’t ‘Honor thy Father and Mother’ include some element of equality of genders in the eyes of the future progeny? Servant Leadership as taught by Jesus Christ was exemplified by Mary when she washed and cleaned the Lords feet and dried them with her hair and anointed Him with oil and then Christ washed the Apostles feet and anointed them. Who is more blest or Christ-like by being subservient?
    In the Gospels on the Sermon on the Mount didn’t Christ prophecy that he/she who is last will be first at the Judgment? Diminishing someones value or station by gender is not Christian or His message, human dignity is paramount in His message and not lessened by gender nor age.

  473. Nicely put, caljim.

  474. Further Ron, Ephesians opens by saying Eph. 5:21,
    “Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ”. Lastly, Ephesians closes with Eph. 5:32/33
    “This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church. In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband”.

    Seems to imply an exchange of values of respect for likesame treatment. Not a mutually exclusive one above another nor overlord relationship.

  475. Ron are women and children made out to be property of husbands in Ephesians.

    Actually, comparing Jesus’ culture and the culture in Ephesus is like comparing apples and oranges. However, slavery existed in both cultures so the idea of the “lord” of the household owning others was well accepted.

    Does Ephesians assign women and their marriage offspring to be no more than the property of their husband(Priesthood)?

    Um, yeah, in ancient Roman culture, the wife lost all rights of inheritance from her old family and was assigned to her husband’s family. Rather like the FLDS actually.

    Diminishing someones value or station by gender is not Christian

    Oh, really? So heaven being only for the believers says what about others?

    Actually Warren Jeffs seems to be following Jesus’ model when he said in Luke 12:

    “51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

  476. Go here http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp search for Brigham Young, He’ll be listed at #21 and shows all his geneology and hyperlinks wifes

    Brigham YOUNG (AFN: 3ZD8-KC) Pedigree
    Sex: M Family

    ——————————————————————————–

    Event(s)
    Birth: 1 Jun 1801
    Whitingham, Windham, Vermont
    Death: 29 Aug 1877
    Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah
    Burial: 2 Sep 1877
    Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah

    ——————————————————————————–

    Parents
    Father: John YOUNG (AFN: 37D8-S2) Family
    Mother: Abigail Nabby HOWE (AFN: 37D8-T7)

    ——————————————————————————–

    Marriage(s)
    Spouse: Ellen ROCKWOOD (AFN: NV46-H9) Family
    Marriage: Jan 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Maria LAWRENCE (AFN: NV46-JG) Family
    Marriage: Jan 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Eliza BABCOCK (AFN: 1VDL-5D) Family
    Marriage: Bef 1853 (div)

    Spouse: Hepzibah RICHARDS (AFN: 1F72-BM) Family
    Marriage:

    Spouse: Mary VAN COTT (AFN: 3QD8-60) Family
    Marriage: 8 Jan 1868
    Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah

    Spouse: Emeline FREE (AFN: 1ZVS-8D) Family
    Marriage: 14 Jan 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

    Spouse: Margaret Maria ALLEY (AFN: 26QG-1T) Family
    Marriage: 14 Jan 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Mary Harvey PIERCE (AFN: 1F6F-PX) Family
    Marriage: 16 Jan 1845
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

    Spouse: Margaret PIERCE (AFN: 8R61-7S) Family
    Marriage: 16 Jan 1845
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

    Spouse: Martha BOWKER (AFN: NHS6-2C) Family
    Marriage: 21 Jan 1846
    Nauvoo, , Illinois

    Spouse: Harriet Amelia FOLSOM (AFN: 2FCQ-BT) Family
    Marriage: 24 Jan 1863
    Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Ut

    Spouse: Rebecca Greenleaf HOLMAN (AFN: 2N02-XJ) Family
    Marriage: 26 Jan 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Naamah Kendall Jenkins CARTER (AFN: NV46-KM) Family
    Marriage: 26 Jan 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Elizabeth (Betsy) FAIRCHILD (AFN: 40VB-1C) Family
    Marriage: 30 Jan (div) 1846

    Spouse: Rhoda RICHARDS (AFN: 1F72-5R) Family
    Marriage: 31 Jan 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Eliza BURGESS (AFN: NV46-PB) Family
    Marriage: 3 Oct 1850
    Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah

    Spouse: Miriam Angeline WORKS (AFN: 27ZZ-W6) Family
    Marriage: 8 Oct 1824
    Cayuga Co., New York

    Spouse: Sophronia Gray FROST (AFN: 2HZ7-PN) Family
    Marriage: Feb 1845
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Zina Diantha HUNTINGTON (AFN: 8R65-S9) Family
    Marriage: 2 Feb 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

    Spouse: Mary Ann TURLEY (AFN: 1BGL-DP) Family
    Marriage: 3 Feb 1846

    Spouse: Nancy CRESSY OR CRISSIE (AFN: 2WX3-BX) Family
    Marriage: 6 Feb 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Marriage: 6 Feb 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Diana (Diora) Severance CHASE (AFN: 1HLB-PW) Family
    Marriage: 7 Feb 1846
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Mary Ann ANGELL (AFN: 2PLN-4S) Family
    Marriage: 18 Feb 1834
    Kirtland, N-Lk, Oh

    Spouse: Harriet Emeline BARNEY (AFN: 25C7-W5) Family
    Marriage: 14 Mar 1856
    Salt Lake City, , Ut

    Spouse: Lucy BIGELOW (AFN: 5S50-R9) Family
    Marriage: 20 Mar 1847
    Nahum Bigelow Home, Winter Quarters, Ne

    Spouse: Mary Jane BIGELOW (AFN: 55KR-ZF) Family
    Marriage: 20 Mar (div) 1847
    Winter Quarters, (florence), Douglas, Nebraska

    Spouse: Ann Eliza WEBB (AFN: 1LLJ-HW) Family
    Marriage: 7 Apr (div) 1868
    Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah

    Spouse: Clarissa Clara DECKER (AFN: 3LTZ-JN) Family
    Marriage: 8 May 1844
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Lydia FARNSWORTH (AFN: 19BW-H0) Family
    Marriage: 8 May 1870

    Spouse: Lucy Ann DECKER (AFN: 2KXX-2B) Family
    Marriage: 15 Jun 1842
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

    Spouse: Eliza Roxey SNOW (AFN: 272Q-KP) Family
    Marriage: 29 Jun 1849

    Spouse: Emily Dow PARTRIDGE (AFN: 1WB3-Q4) Family
    Marriage: Sep 1844
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

    Spouse: Clarissa ROSS (AFN: 1QZR-RN) Family
    Marriage: 10 Sep 1844
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

    Spouse: Louisa BEEMAN BEAMAN (AFN: 37D5-31) Family
    Marriage: 19 Sep 1844
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Harriett Elizabeth COOK (AFN: 3VL3-K3) Family
    Marriage: 2 Nov 1843
    Nauvoo, Hncck, Il

    Spouse: Augusta ADAMS (AFN: 17XW-9N) Family
    Marriage: 2 Nov 1843
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

    Spouse: Susannah SNIVELY (AFN: GQCG-HM) Family
    Marriage: 2 Nov 1844
    Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois

  477. Ron doncha think the “submitting” should stop short of pimping ourt your children?

    Where do you draw the line?

  478. Ron doncha think the “submitting” should stop short of pimping out your children?

    Well, yeah, I think so, but I’ll bet a lot of folks say it’s not “Biblical.”

  479. Come on Ron even in Ephesians Chapter 6 concerning slavery St. Paul has the admonition of Ephesians 6:5-9,
    “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ, not only when being watched, as currying favor, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, willingly serve the Lord and not human beings, knowing that each will be requited from the Lord for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. Masters, act in the same way towards them, and stop bullying, knowing that both they and you have a Master in heaven and that with Him there is no partiality”.

    So on the Judgment Day, God won’t see a Master and Slave just two souls and their separate hearts/souls/minds judging each that did His will by His better judgment. It states,”…willingly serve the Lord and not human beings”. So we’re talking about ones own free will being devoted to the Lord and not a mere mortal (husband) and remembering that both master and slave shall be ultimately judged by thee,”Master in heaven and that with Him there is no partiality”. Seems fairly clear and gender neutral to me, do you suppose it would be any different because of gender or Husband/Wife relationship? On Judgment Day we all stand individually before God to receive our own personal judgment, not our masters nor husbands. As Christ reminded us he wants us to love Him from our own heart/soul/mind alone. Recall Jesus greatest commandment Matt. 22: 37-40,
    “He said to him, You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul and will all your mind. This is the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor [wife] as yourself. The whole law and prophets depend on these two commandments”.
    Ron I asked you what Ephesians states and not what was Roman law or the then civil rights. Ephesians states nothing about husbands owning or responsible benefactors of their wife and children. He will judge with impartiality and by individual heart/soul/mind that did His will by His sole judgment.

    Your question on heaven being only for Believers is not my or your judgment to make but God’s determination. We have no guarantees on His fairness or claim on Eternity beyond Christ’s assurances, speaking to Christans, that they will be Just and Fair. God sent us the Holy Spirit, by Jesus’ request, to aid us in procuring God’s favored judgment and granting us entry into heaven.

  480. Raymond’s Motion for a New Trial denied.

    Not a surprise.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/jan/07/walther-denies-new-trial-for-jessop/

  481. to bad so sad for raymond. i guess his next stop will be the big house.

  482. Goldstein now has his foundation laid for Raymond’s appeal so his next filing should be at the 3rd COA.

  483. woo-hoo–twist!!

    Hook Em’ Horns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  484. woo-hoo–twist!!

    Hook Em’ Horns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    **************************************

    My sentiments exactly.

  485. Yeah, Jim, slaves are to remain slaves. So let those FLDS women remain slaves to their priesthood masters, right? Why should you stop them from being obedient? Looks to me like you’re trying to thwart God’s will.

    You’re picking and choosing your Bible to fit your worldview. I may agree with you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Bible can be read either way depending upon your worldview.

  486. to bad so sad for raymond. i guess his next stop will be the big house.

    Yep, next step will be the “big house.” I wonder where he’ll end up. Technically, he’s a sex offender so he may go to one of the units that specialize in sex offenders.

  487. Ron, technically and realistically he IS a sex offender, no two ways around it, he sexually assaulted a child, by any and all definitions he IS a sex offender.

  488. Ron, we can hold opposite views and agree to not agree, I think one of the major cruxs that has caused so many problems for the FLDS Church is the decided view that the women and children are the outright property of the Priesthood, the Priesthood being the outright property of the Prophet is equally a tenet to bolster the polygamy culture. President Lincoln called slavery and polygamy, “the twin relics of barbarism’ and it is as true today as when he first expressed it. I wish to point out that believing in a husband’s literal ownership of his wife and children constitutes a subtle form of slavery not so obviously acknowledged by our modern society. I do not infer that you endorse this position but wish to nominate this patriarchal teaching as one of the problems confronting fundamentalism religions worldwide and it is in need of redress.

    Ron you and not I quoted Ephesians first and you not only edited it’s open and close but you stated it espoused a, how do you term it, ‘…the Bible can be read either way depending on your world view’. I simply pointed out a broader context and you not only quoted another Scripture but you disavow Scripture as a plausible context? Why did you quote it to begin with and now your being taciturn.

  489. Alinusara10 it’s a New Year!

    And FU,
    Love, Fred

  490. Yep, next step will be the “big house.” I wonder where he’ll end up. Technically, he’s a sex offender so he may go to one of the units that specialize in sex offenders.
    ———
    Yes I imagine they will have to keep Raymond out of general population to keep him from being passed around like his young victim was.

  491. is the grand canyon close by?

    proudtexan said this on January 7, 2010 at 8:31 AM

    The lodge at the north rim of the Grand Canyon is only about an hour from the Creek.

  492. Ah, Fred, welcome back, I was wondering where you were….

  493. Thanks JonDana for that info on the genealogy of Brigham Young (or old, just bring’em)

    I recognize a lot of prominent Utah surnames in that list.

    It would be my guess that the famous Huntington Library in LA is from the family of Spouse: Zina Diantha HUNTINGTON

  494. Keeping Sweet,
    Thanks for missing me. I’ve been away … keeping sweet.
    Cheers!

  495. Always love reading “Alin FU – Love, Fred”

  496. Hey Fred, Happy New Year and welcome back !!

  497. Sorry I dropped in late this evening … Just wanted to make a point about Ephesians 5 : 22 –
    The word in the Greek text for “submit” is “hupotasso.”
    It means to line up in formation for battle.
    What does this mean ?
    Rather than someone taking a simply servile role to an authority figure, as may be suggested by the translation as “submit,” it means to fight for or with someone and support them.
    Additionally, isn’t it interesting that the men among us neglected to quote Ephesians 5:21, the preceding verse, which commands mutual submission :
    “and you will submit to one another out of reverence for the Messiah.”

  498. Are there any big differences that should be expected now the Emack trial has been moved to San Angelo? or rather what’s the point in moving?

  499. JanDana, the point in moving Emack’s trial is they now have a bigger juror base. Tom Green County is larger than Schleicher County and they were running out of available jurors in Schleicher County.

  500. FLDS101,
    You did a great job on that latest update.

    Maybe you should add a photo to it such as the one taken by Judd Burkett of the St. George Spectrum Newspaper where Warren is almost irradiating red heat from his face like this photo – http://childbrides.org/images/Warren_and_Atty_Issacson.jpg

    He just looks so evil, wicked, mean and nasty.

    Besides he has a really smug expression that just seems to symbolize “Warren the despot.”

    I think this photo really caught him looking like the devil he is. His lawyer doesn’t look too friendly either, BTW.

  501. What is the general impression of the feeling of “the man (or woman) on the street” in San Angelo on the offenses of the accused?

  502. That is a good picture of Warren. He looks like he’s been praying on his face.

  503. From the San Angelo article:

    “Wilson said defense attorneys hadn’t ruled out the possibility of Emack testifying.”

    HA HA HA.

    What would he testify to? No, I didn’t sexually assault her on the 6th day of October, 2004 (per the indictment) because it was on the 14th – a full week later.

    So if you try to prosecute me for assaulting her on the 6th, then it is nothing but RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION.

  504. I think that photo of Warren is only missing the horns.

  505. catwhisperer,

    I know you weren’t asking me specifically, but San Angelo is a College town. It is my hope that the majority of jurors pulled for interview are educators and/or students.

    They will certainly have as many Hispanics as they claim is essential. If they’re hoping for the mythical-macho-Hispanic-man to support FLDS patriarchy, I suspect they’ll be surprised to find how fiercely protective Hispanic males are of their daughters. Which does NOT bode well for the p-hoods.

    TxMom — Free the Sacred Cows !

  506. Go Sacred Cows! Sorry the Longhorns lost.

  507. Hey FLDS…would like to send an email (actually it’s a bumper sticker for Texas Twist) what’s your addy? Thanks.

  508. email address here that is…

  509. Me: The requirement that women submit to men, whether by a government or religion, is a human rights violation.
    =================================================
    Alin: Then you have to ban Christianity.

    ……………………

    Hmmmm. Can’t seem to find where Jesus says that a woman needs to be subservient to her husband.

  510. Those are not the words of Christ, they are the words of Paul.

    Yeah, but they’re in God’s infallible book. God wouldn’t have let it into the book if God didn’t mean it, right?

    ……………………….

    If we had to take the Bible as “infallible” then we would still be slaughtering calves on the alter.

  511. I suspect they’ll be surprised to find how fiercely protective Hispanic males are of their daughters.

    …………………….

    I don’t know how anybody gets the idea that Hispanics will tacitly approve/sympathize with the FLDS men having multiple sex partners.

  512. Re: women submitting to men in Christianity.

    Oh come on!!!

    The new testament was written in and for Jewish society about 2000 years ago. It was a patriachal culture, as most were at that time, and that is reflected in the attitudes in it.

    Just like the book of Mormon was written in and for early to mid 19th century American culture, and the prevailing attitudes of that culture are reflected therein.

    I don’t deny Christianity has brought a lot of good things to the world, but reading the bible as a literal guide to how to live your life in a 21st century western democracy is never going to be practical.

    Melissa

  513. The Texas folks are probably grieving over the BCS game tonight and there are too many Anons on this blog. It even confuses Anon me.

    I am going to bed.

    ‘night all.

  514. However, it’s pretty obvious to me that the way Jesus involved women in his ministry (for lack of a better word) and the way Paul recommends that women be involved in the Church (i.e. silently and submissively) are quite different.

    …………………….

    St Paul (the Great Lion of God) seemed to have a bit of an aversion to sex. He believed that celibacy was the preferable state to be in, and people should only get married if they really felt they couldn’t live without sex. It is also suspected that he may have had some kind of physical affliction or deformity.

    It is obvious, to me, anyway, that Jesus loved women and they were an integral part of his life and ministry. The sisters Mary and Martha were two of his closest friends.

  515. Melissa: I don’t deny Christianity has brought a lot of good things to the world, but reading the bible as a literal guide to how to live your life in a 21st century western democracy is never going to be practical.

    ………………..

    Oh I have found it to be full of good advice. My husband and I used 1 Corinthians 13 in our wedding vows. It is still as beautiful and full of truth today as it was 2000 years ago.

  516. Dang – my comments are coming up Anonymous.

    I wrote the post about St Paul, the Great Lion of God, and also replied to Melissa about the Bible being full of good advice.

  517. I agree- full of good advice, beautiful philosophies and has shaped the world as we know it. I honestly believe the concept of universal sufferage arose from the Christian ideal of all life and all souls being sacred, and that is something I hold very dear.

    But if you tried to lead your life by a literal interpretation of every word in the bible, you would run up against many contradictions and find great difficulty functioning in our modern society. You would probably run into many similar problems as the FLDS do in integrating into mainstream society.

    Although I am not religious I value Christianity very highly as part of our cultural heritage and have no wish to be disrespectful to the beliefs of others.

    Melissa

  518. Ron, technically and realistically he IS a sex offender, no two ways around it, he sexually assaulted a child, by any and all definitions he IS a sex offender.

    Yeah, I said that all wrong. What I should have said is “technically, he’s a child molester.” I’m referring to the fact that child molesters are usually housed in special units to avoid inmate on inmate violence.

  519. Re: Women in Church

    At the risk of belaboring the point a bit. Women in the Christian church are a classic example of the perverting effects of religion. It’s clear from the Book of Acts that Paul had women who held high authority in his churches. Early critics of Christianity called it a religion of “women and slaves.”

    Somehow that all got changed and what got put into scripture was the whole women should submit and be quiet in church.

  520. not in our church, which is a southern baptist church. we’ve got women on the staff as ministers and also women deacons.

  521. Ron,
    Take a look at the Christians for Biblical Equality website. Their research on the meaning of the verses you question is most illuminating.

  522. The link is here :
    http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/men-women-and-biblical-equality

  523. not in our church, which is a southern baptist church. we’ve got women on the staff as ministers and also women deacons.

    Ah, but let them ordain a woman as a pastor and then lets see what happens….

  524. I’ve seen women ministers give very powerful services. I’m not sure offhand if any in particular are southern baptists.

  525. Al

    Where the heck were you? You keep claiming you are in the SBC, now you dont know?

    Offhand?

  526. Maybe you saw too many Tammy Faye Bakker interviews.

  527. Ron,

    That’s because hierarchical power structures have been for thousands of years, male dominated. Once the church became an large organization with actual power, the prevailing structure of the surrounding culture took over. It’s a sad and common tale, but true.

    Betty/zen mistress

  528. So. Back in Texas. Any news on yesterday’s bidness in Angelo at the courthouse?

  529. When you do this: http://staging.radaronline.com/exclusives//Warren_jeffs_052608_FRESH.jpg

    you end up like this: http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/images/2008/04/10/warren_jeffs3_2.jpg

  530. Oh the things you can find on the internet . . .

  531. Tammy ran her own “Keep Sweet” class, but she had breakout moments.

  532. motion for new trial denied.

    emack trial will be in san angelo, 2nd degree felony (5 – 20 years) it will start jan 25

  533. Heah Cat, I quoted Ephesians 5:21 yesterday when the broader context of St. Paul’s teaching was discussed? My masculinity didn’t keep me from trying to convey the broader Christian message that all life is sacred and viewed equally by God. See 1/07/2010 @ 2:00pm. Matthew 22:37-40 I think this passage gives emphasis on how Christians are to treat and interact with one another, especially spouses. On subservience Luke 7:50 states,”But he said to the woman,’Your faith has saved you; go in peace” this is one of the most memorable passages witnessed at Simon the lepers home in Bethany and is recounted in all four Gospels. It inspires me to want to serve than be a master. Warren Jeffs witnessed admonition by Becky Musser that he would break her and teach her to obey contrasts well here.

  534. cajIM: Luke 7:50 states,”But he said to the woman,’Your faith has saved you; go in peace”

    ………………………

    Notice he didn’t say you are saved by perfect obedience to a husband and/or prophet.

    This to me is one of the saddest things about a cult like the FLDS: the women are born and raised with the belief that they need permission from men to be with God. That is a big, fat, misogynist lie.

  535. Catwhisperer I meant to thank you for the Biblical Christian equality website reference, very enlightening.

  536. Can someone explain this to me?

    Why was it “cold and heartless” for women from YFZ to be separated from their children who were older than 12 months, yet it was okay in 2007 for an 18-month-old boy and his three older siblings (3 through 7) to be at YFZ without their mother (she was in Short Creek).

    Their father wasn’t at YFZ in 2007, either. He had been kicked out in 2004 when his young son was less than one-year old.

    Their stepfather (Leroy Johnson Steed) and their grandfather (Eddie Jessop) were there in 2007, but neither their natural mother or natural grandmother were there.

    Maybe there is a legitimate reason why their mother wasn’t at YFZ with her small children. I’m open to hearing it if Willie would be so “open” as to elaborate on why these four very young children (and others) were at YFZ without their mothers.

  537. Maybe Eddie Jessop could explain why his daughter wasn’t at YFZ with her four children the next time he is interviewed and/or photographed.

  538. Or Leroy Johnson Steed could be asked about the mother of those four stepchildren if he takes the witness stand in his own defense (fat chance) when his trial rolls around.

    In the revised article in the San Angelo ST on yesterday’s hearings, Randy Wilson is cited as saying it hasn’t been ruled out for Michael Emack to testify for the defense in his trial.

    I’ll believe it when I see it.

    If Emack should testify, I can think of several lines of questions that he could be asked.

  539. cajIM,
    Sorry, I should give credit where credit is due.
    I did not realize you were a man.
    Thank you for recognizing the egalitarian nature of the Christian religion.

  540. Can someone explain this to me?

    Why was it “cold and heartless” for women from YFZ to be separated from their children who were older than 12 months, yet it was okay in 2007 for an 18-month-old boy and his three older siblings (3 through 7) to be at YFZ without their mother (she was in Short Creek).
    ———-
    The situation you describe was “okay” because, although they were separated from their parents, the children were still being cared for by upstanding FLDS members, not evil gentile CPS workers, which might expose them to short-sleeved shirts and black people.

  541. I guess living in the household of a man who married a 14-year-old girl is a much more wholesome environment than those dangerous and wicked short-sleeved shirts.

  542. Holy cowpie, Batman, dont look now, the YFZ ranch isnt the refuge they thought it was!

  543. A new film is about to be realeased :
    Leaving Bountiful
    http://bountiful.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/leavingbountiful_pr.pdf

  544. Yeah, but, Stamp.

    They have fresh baked bread and milk from maybe-holy-maybe-not cows, so it’s all good.

  545. That looks like it will be a very powerful documentary catwhisperer, now I guess I’ll have to add a new entry to the “deer do it” list.

    #70. It’s all Debbie’s fault!

  546. there were numerous kids who were at the YFZ without their biological parents and also numerous kids who were left behind in short creek without one or both of their parents. people are also in houses of hiding and might or might not be there with all their family. families were moved around under the cover of darkness at the whim of one man, warren steed jeffs.

    in fact, given the stuff attached to the document filed by the UEP, he’s still moving people around even while he is in jail.

  547. The children were in Zion, this is a family freezone provided by the perfect prophet for those he owns and gives the special permission to reside in his presence, until the Escalade was stopped and the devil took him hostage. They are all still praying for his jailhouse doors to fling open and his deliverance back to their little heaven upon Earth. Who needs a natural mother or father when Warren is your prophet?

  548. That bunch at YFZ has never cared if children were with their parents or not, certainly not during Warran Jeffs’ reign. There are issues I’m certain pure positive absolute they would not want brought out into the open during these particular criminal trials. Keeping sweet means keeping your mouth shut, means not showing as a witness which allows Discovery.

  549. So as the YFZ Ranch households with resident convicted sexual assault felons mount, along with children residing with adults that have no biological DNA to match them up with, what is Child Protective Services going to do to ensure these children are safe and not in harms way?

    So far I have 45 children, returned to now known felon’s homes with no action(s) initiated by Texas authorities to verify the children’s safety.

  550. what is Child Protective Services going to do to ensure these children are safe and not in harms way?

    That’s the million dollar question. Freedom of information act request anyone?

  551. Freedom of information would be a nice start but DNA taken already and were the children biologically matched with the present YFZ Ranch population or were placements made back to awaiting parents whom only claimed parentage but no DNA procedures were followed to test the voracity of truth of the adults claims? We know some children had no biological parents residing at the YFZ Ranch, yet they were returned to somebody?

  552. Ron,
    Send a FOIA to what agency, and to whose attention ?

  553. Texas Department of Family and Protective Services – they may have a link on their website for such requests.

  554. Found it

    Open Records TDFPS

  555. More than likely the DFPS case records are not covered under the Open Records act.

    http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/policies/caserecord.asp

    Obtaining a Child Protective Services (CPS), Adult Protective Services (APS), or Child Care Licensing Case Record

    Agency case records of children and adults are only releasable to certain parties and not to the general public.

    Depending on your relationship to a case, you may or may not be entitled to the information you are seeking. General guidelines for entitlement are provided by program below.
    CPS – Child Protective Services

    CPS records are confidential under Section 261.201(a) of the Texas Family Code. Most records will not be released unless there is a court order to release the records. Some individuals are entitled to a copy of the record or portions of the record without a court order, including the following:

    * Parent or other legally responsible adult of the child who is the subject of the case,
    * An adult who was, as a child, the subject of the case, including adoptions,
    * A person alleged or designated to be the perpetrator in the case, or
    * Other individuals identified under 40 Texas Administrative Code (TAC) 700.203.

    DFPS must comply with all statutes and rules pertaining to confidentiality of CPS records, please see 40 Texas Administrative Code Sections 700.201- 700.207.

  556. I wonder, why authorities enable Warren to continue his criminal enterprise from inside jail
    I’ve NEVER heard of any other in-custody, convicted felon, with many pending charges, allowed access to continue to run their organized criminal enterprise while in-custody. Especially, when part of their job duty in that enterprise is what landed them in prison – marrying off little girls.
    Any other inmate, anywhere, would not be able to ‘sneak out’ any prophecy b.s, or any orders to anyone. Period.

    So seriously, I’m asking, wtf?

  557. Sadie

    Information about specific cases may not be fair game, but things like the number of follow up visits to YFZ and things like that would be.

    Heck, you can request the records by email. I’d strongly encourage anyone with the time to go through whatever they produce to do it.

    I’d love one of you guys to give me an “executive summary.” I just simply don’t have the time necessary to devote to both crafting the “proper” request and then sorting through the records.

  558. I take it from Lady Sadie’s response that a FOIA may not be feasible in this case?

  559. Cat

    If you want to know if they followed up with Child X, then you’re barking up the wrong tree. If you want to know if they’re still making visits to the ranch they SHOULD give you that information. I say should since there is the question about whether the ranch is one residence or not.

    It’s always difficult with these requests. The agencies as a general rule don’t like them.

  560. I’d phrase a request like this to start:

    “Request for information about all steps being taken to insure the safety of females aged 12 to 17 at YFZ Ranch.”

    That’s non-specific enough that they shouldn’t be able to claim confidentiality.

  561. Uhm well drug dealers commonly work out of prisons so I’m sure other convicts do also.

  562. Ron,
    Thanks for the advice, I have made FOIA requests before, and I will try my hand at this one, as per your suggestions.

  563. i personally would like to speak to M Rose Barlow Allred Jeffs Keate to make sure that she really wants to be there with her son and that she’s not being held hostage by them having taken her son to some house in hiding without her.

    from the sound of the letters allan wrote to warren, it doesn’t sound like she was too happy to be a submissive wife. with hubby now a guest of the texas department of corrections, she might not be happy with the thought of having a 3rd priesthood head at the ripe ole age of 19. she just had a birthday, so she was just 18 when her “husband” was convicted.

  564. Who’s left on Warren’s list of approved husbands?

    No way he’ll let a fertile 18-year-old lie fallow for 33 years — unless they are his wives, of course.

    There’s always “Bob”, I suppose. He has received a number of reassignees.

    Wait, though. That is her father. I don’t think Warren’s come down to that.

    Yet.

  565. TexasTwist i am not too sure of that. Remeber, Rulon Jeffs comment that how close in relations to kin that is allowable would surprise the ‘Gentile’ world. That observation of Rulon has always haunted me.

  566. Another installment on the FLDS101 blog. In this article we learn about Warren’s activities in prison in the months right before his trial. He made some pretty good changes on YFZ. Banned cold cereal and made his wives pack their bags and hide them in the closets (find out why). He worried like crazy that his Priesthood Records would be made public (they were). See: http://flds101.blogspot.com/2009/05/flds-history-101-warren-jeffs-waiting.html

  567. True dat, cajiM.

    Of course, Rulon married his sister Leona when she had no E-ticket to the CK after her husband Rulon Clark Allred split off with Musser to form what became the AUB/Allred group.

    Presumably it was a marriage in spirit only.

    Marriages between step-siblings have happened throught the years and stepfathers and stepdaughters (as in Kelly Fischer and some others).

    At least one instance of a marriage between a foster father and daughter and one between foster sister and brother.

    Mother-daughter sets are turning out to be way more common than I originally thought.

  568. Rachel Nielsen?

    Oh, my.

    Great stuff, FLDS101.

  569. good work flds101 – i have much to read and catch up on.

  570. I’ve NEVER heard of any other in-custody, convicted felon, with many pending charges, allowed access to continue to run their organized criminal enterprise while in-custody

    ………………………………………….

    If they’re allowed visitors, it’s probably not too difficult at all.

  571. Phones.

  572. Sorry: cell phones

  573. Attorney Access

    When meeting with an Attorney he can fork over all sorts of written material that would not be searched or read.

    After that, it gets harder. Gangsters often pass messages using codes in letters that are actually opened and read.

    I think Corrections Officers now copy them into a file when they suspect this is going on.

  574. warren apparently gets lots of phone time. who pays for his long distance calls?

  575. Atilla

    Yes, TDC is having a big problem with smuggled cell phones.

  576. ProudTexasn

    I reckon the fated sheeples shoulder the bill. I still think the legal fees are beyond their ability to pay though, if not now, eventually.

    Phone calls would be recorded, except perhaps those to his attorney. I reckon he could play that game almost forever.

    Ron, thats pretty big contraband, and do they get a charger with that?

    Be hard to hide in the usual spot.

  577. you only have to smuggle 1 charger in then the inmate with it can charge others to use his charger.

  578. Think of the discount they get with the “Friends and Family” program.

  579. “Jail House Rock” as the ring tone?

  580. From FLDS101

    Warren sent an amusing directive to YFZ. He banned cold cereal from the land. “It is usually white flour and sugar. Please have it removed.” Perhaps he had a bad experience with Captain Crunch while in prison.

    Maybe I’m easily amused, but I found this LOL funny.

  581. OH crap all the fun and games are over!

    http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/mediasvc/connections/NovDec2009/agency_v17no2.html#cellphones

  582. Ron

    Who knew? A health nut with a penchant for destructing a city.

  583. A new film is about to be realeased :
    Leaving Bountiful
    http://bountiful.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/leavingbountiful_pr.pdf

    …………………………

    It’s amazing how similar Debbie’s story is to Carolyn’s. It’s amazing how EVERY woman who has left the FLDS tells a similar story, yet they are branded as liars, apostates and whores.

  584. Warren sent an amusing directive to YFZ. He banned cold cereal from the land. “It is usually white flour and sugar. Please have it removed.” Perhaps he had a bad experience with Captain Crunch while in prison.

    ………….

    But what about Cheerios? They aren’t full of white flour and sugar.

    You GOTTA have Cheerios!

  585. Did you hear the one about what the Cheerio said to a loaf of Bread?

    “Do you think I would be hanging around this hole if I had that much bread”?

  586. Check out Debbie Palmer’s family tree (forest).

    http://childbrides.org/debbie_palmer_family_tree.pdf

  587. Yes, Anon E Mouse and Brooke Adams runs a ‘Plural Life’ blog article on Pat Merkley and she states that there isn’t any data to prove that children in polygamy experience more domestic violence or child abuse. Of course, empirical knowledge from ‘apostate’ FLDS members is not reliable, so polygamists are more likely to be misunderstood. So they control the exposure of their polygamous community to the outside world and then complain about being misunderstood. Then when the YFZ Ranch is investigated out drops 12 Grand Jury indictments and 26 total charges.

  588. Yeah, it may not be a scientific study but the data from YFZ DOES support that female children in that community are more likely to suffer sexual abuse.

  589. I can’t deal with the carbs in just about all cold cereals. They’re all over the line for diabetics.

  590. Attila,, try nutrisystem, they have great cereals, and you can order ala carte.

  591. The Pat Merkely article really burned me, as I saw it did you too CaJim.

    Its a poorly written fluff piece that doesnt even vet Pat’s position. Of course she has to pretend its all good with only a few people needing help, so they will still go to her. If she is too critical they will either not go on their own nor would their abusers allow it.

    So she shoves it all under the rug and utters not one crime ever committed. FLUFF FLUFF FLUFF what a bunch of crap. OBTW Brooke wrote in it too, the part where the line between Pat and the saftety net arent strongly revealed.

    There was some confusion, and Gordo flamed you for it, here is my post still under moderation.

    ================================

    Gordo

    1) He missed the tiny comments link. Some articles don’t have a comment section. USUALLY there are a number of posts, if you are the first one, its hard to see. Big deal.

    2) It is commentary by Pat Merkely, and for some reason, her credentials on her association with the “Polygamy Safety Net” isn’t fully noted in this piece. Pat, at least here, acknowledges not one crime done to children.

    However, on another site, is this exchange:

    “I’m in awe of what you’ve accomplished,” Anne Wilde of the pro-polygamy group Principle Voices told Merkley.

    Merkley said she wished they could reach people earlier.

    “They’re almost at a crisis point by the time they reach us,” she told committee members. “I wish people would come sooner.”

    http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2009/03/polygamy-safety-net-helps-hundreds.html

    3) Dirge / Dearth / Splurge – What? We got English police now?

    Hey, perhaps he was pointing out that “facts had a funeral” when Pat started out with that piece. BTW, if she cant face and acknowledge the facts of the day, it is indeed fluff. Just an FYI Gordo.

  592. Unfortunately Pat Merkely is not familiar with the world literature on polygamy, which indicates there IS a higher incidence of domestic violence and sexual abuse of children in polygynous households.
    Maybe she should do a literature search before she makes definite statements like that.

  593. See this : Abbas Raptus : A Review of Incestuous Rape in Polygamous Mormon Communities
    http://www.forumonpublicpolicy.com/archive06/bennion.pdf

  594. According to the medical literature, polygyny is a risk factor for sexual molestation of women and children.
    Source Documents :
    A.H. Green, MD “Child Sexual Abuse & Incest” Chapter in Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, and also see :
    Myers, Wade, & Brasington : “A Case of Incestuous Polygamy” in Journal of Forensic Science, 2002
    See also :
    Greenfield : Sex Offenses & Offenders : An Analysis of the Data on Rape & Sexual Assault, Bureau of Justice Statistics

  595. Stamp to Pat Merkley’s credit states,”Oftentimes I’ve had to rewrite and rethink everything basic that I would use anywhere else”. So she shows that she is growing and changing her experience and knowledge, hopefully, she comes to the shared empirical knowledge of a few ‘apostates’ from polygamy that share their experiences with violence and child abuse within these communities.
    Lastly, Merkley says,”The public has a high level of bias and anger toward polygamous families due partly from news coverage of children being removed from a polygamous community in Texas”.
    Ummmnn…I assume shes referring to the YFZ Ranch gulag that is two states removed from Utah were over 425+children were being kept unbeknownst to local Texas authorities, in fact the nearby town of Eldorado had no inkling that many children were residing in this cloistered compound. Did the citizens nearby become stirred up about false statements made to local authorities by FLDS Church officials and the facts ended up at odds with the false statements. Yes, you bet that was a failed attempt to fool an entire community that now knows better, is guarded and not without cause.

  596. Indeed it amazes me they give Pat money to dance around the issue, it seems like they want to keep polygamy going and just treat the odd victim falling through the cracks.

    My post response:

    “Pat:

    “The public has a high level of bias and anger toward polygamous families due partly to news coverage of children being removed from a polygamous community in Texas.

    However, Merkley said there is no research that indicates there is more domestic violence or child abuse in polygamous households”

    ~snip~

    “Oftentimes I’ve had to rewrite and rethink everything basic that I would use anywhere else,” she said”

    =====================

    Well, obviously she needs to rewrite and rethink her positions. For one, bias against polygamists wasnt garnered by “children being removed” but rather the heinous crimes their own parents and Church leaders forced on them.

    If you cant trust your parents and Church leaders in life where does that leave you?

    And she bemoans the lack of research proving polygamist abuse. Well, using the YFZ compound as an example, its obvious that there is plenty of abuse and illegal activity.

    You don’t really need to fund any research, Pat, just read the news.”

  597. moderated and unposted:

    “Well, the news “I” read says there are 12 FLDS under indictment for various crimes against children on that ranch, and amongst those are the Ranch Doctor, the Church Leader Prophet / Parent and the Ranch Leader Bishop / Parent.

    The first two to trial have led to convictions, and many news outlets have reported this.

    Maybe you missed whats going on. And if you think its OK and a victimless crime for a man of 50 to pretend to wed and impregnate 14 or 15 yr olds, I feel awfully sorry for you as a person.

    I really don’t think Pat Merkely condones such behavior, however, the lack of her condemning it is noted.”

  598. Carol

    “There has been more bias caused toward the polygamists by various blogs and comment boards where anyone trying to have a discussion is immediately called liars and child abusers.”

    Link please? I’ve seen many posts where if someone posts to protect abusers, they are said to be protecting abusers, but to say they were “CALLED” abusers, yes that would be a lie.

    =======================

    “These commenters want the polygamists punished, the children placed in foster care and even the mothers arrested.”

    Well, if the parents and church leaders are sexually molesting the children, with the mothers knowledge, then yes all those things should happen. If the mother gave her child up to a sex molester she not only shold have no right to get her back if the molester is convicted, but she in turn should face charges. If you cant trust your mother who can you trust?

    ============

    “I wish there were more people like Pat Merkley who are willing to do research into these families instead of instantly condemning their lifestyle and believing every lie that has been told.”

    ——

    Read the article, Pat said there isnt enough research, and its not what she does either. But as documentation of abuse, you have 12 men, including 3 of the top leaders, deeply involved in the abuse, how much research do you really need?

  599. Are these ex-FLDS ?
    Published online 1/6/2010 10:39 PM

    Jessie W. Fischer-Stubbs

    NEWTON – Jessie Wayne Fischer-Stubbs, was born into the arms of angels that carried him to heaven on Jan. 4, 2010, at Newton Medical Center, Newton.

    His survivors include: his parents, Chad Stubbs and Maria Zuno, Newton; sisters, Xena Zuno and Emilee Kate Fischer, both of Newton; grandparents, Richard and Amanda Fischer, Newton and Daryl and Sharon Stubbs, Wichita. He was preceded in death by his great grandparents.

    Recitation of the Holy Rosary 10 a.m. Friday, Jan. 8, 2010, at Our Lady of Guadalupe Catholic Church, Newton. Funeral Mass 10:30 a.m. Friday at the church, with the Rev. James Mainzer presiding. Burial will be in St. Mary’s Catholic Cemetery, Newton. Broadway Colonial Funeral Home, Newton, handled the arrangements.

    From Hutchinson, Kansas web site:
    http://www.hutchnews.com/Obituaries/fischerstubbs

  600. “STOMPED”! Stamp good job, now share with us how you truly feel. Hee,hee!

  601. Stamp,
    It isn’t true that there isn’t enough research on polygyny.
    There is abundant medical evidence that sexual molestation is more common in polygynous households than monogamous households.
    Pat apparently has not read the research.
    There is nothing worse than a medical professional who makes definitive statements about topics they have not researched.

  602. My evidence based response to Ms. Merkley has been posted on Brooke’s blog.

  603. Susan, she isn’t a medical professional — she’s a social worker. I don’t think most of them adhere to the scientific method very well — in fact, my own empirical data suggests that they’re real big on “subjective” data. 😉

  604. Rebeckah,
    Physicians consider social workers to be allied health professionals.
    That being said, the foremost living researcher on the effect of polygyny on women and children is a PhD level social worker, Alean Al-Krenawi. His studies are scientifically based – you can review them on my Yahoo Polygamy Research site.
    When treating any patient, it is wise to read the medical literature on their condition, and their living situation. It is obvious to me she has not done the appropriate research needed to successfully make interventions for her patient population.

  605. CW, Susan,

    Brooke posted those links, though no guarantee that her or this Pat Merkely would read them.

    I would like to hear Flora or Kdee’s POV on this Safety Net deal.

    I’m really suspect. For instance, the Thread on the Blaugh really IS a fluff piece.

    Pat says to watch Big Love to get an understanding?

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

    She dances around the crimes as if they dont exist, like she is comparing the cultures of Mexicans and Italians, NOT the drug kingpins and mobsters from those backgrounds.

    ======

    “Utah social worker Patricia Merkley LCSW encourages people to watch the program to learn about a little-known and often misunderstood segment of American society. Yet “Big Love” depicts just a tiny part of modern-day polygamy in Utah and other parts of the Western United States, she said.

    “It can’t portray a whole population because in the intermountain West there are about 40,000 polygamists,” said Merkley, 52, who earned a master’s degree in social work from the University of Utah and is a National Association of Social Workers member. “There are different groups and they emphasize different things.”

    ===========

    Now, I expect most of us have seen Big Love. I havent seen it all, but certainly wouldnt use it as a basis for knowledge of Utah polygamists other that comparing MASH to a real life field Hospital in Korea.

    The crimes are so disgusting they simply arent fit for TV.

  606. Stamp,
    I strongly suspect that Ms. Merkley is being politically correct, and that she is afraid of offending her clientele. It is either that, or she is deliberately ignorant of the published literature.

  607. There seems to be a lot of deliberate ignorance within the government of Utah.

  608. Here is a good video about the practice of polyandry, 1 women with many husbands. It seems this practice is just as perverted as polygamy since the woman frequently marries her husband’s brothers. Good example of male degradation as the wife alternates sharing her bed with a different “husband” every night. What do they do with the excess girls? Another sick cultural practice, as if we needed more.

    http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/player/places/culture-places/beliefs-and-traditions/india_multiplehusbands.html

  609. I’ve posted my last prison installment. This article covers Warren’s life in prison after his trial. There he still sits dressed in his orange jumpsuit, in his 7×12 cell, eating his banned cold cereal with his mug shot attached to his wrist. Read what he told his family just a few days before the YFZ raid. See: http://flds101.blogspot.com/2010/01/flds-history-101-after-trial.html

  610. Thanks FLDS 101 !

    at Anonymous 7:10 pm :
    I did a brief literature search on polyandry, and apparently these polyandrous marriages can be quite unstable, but there is no objective data regarding outcomes for children, or marital satisfaction for the partners.
    Here is the link :
    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/204624

  611. wonderful article flds101. thanks for sharing

  612. Is duane being anon again? I think I recall an example of polyandy in India, I forget why they were short of females, maybe killed at birth or something, so it was considered economic, but at least offspring were limited.

  613. Polyandry is mentioned in the Hindu scriptures, specifically in the Mahabharata, wherein the goddess Draupadi depicted as married to five brothers.
    Polyandry (marriage of one woman to several brothers) developed in the Himalayas as a means to limit the population, and to preserve farms and homes within a family of brothers.

  614. ohh yeahhh now that sounds familiar.

  615. RIP dear Barbara

  616. Maybe instead of “Dear Barbara” I should have said “Der Barbara” as in “Der Fuhrer”

  617. OOPS wrong der Barbara video

  618. Susan the MD said:

    It is obvious to me she has not done the appropriate research needed to successfully make interventions for her patient population.

    Dr. Susan, this is Utah, what do you expect?

  619. Susan – you assume she’s trying to intervene. Sound more like triage to me.

  620. From Wikipedia:

    Polyandry is a practice where a woman is married to more than one man at the same time. Fraternal polyandry was traditionally practiced among nomadic Tibetans in Nepal parts of China and part of northern India, in which two or more brothers share the same wife, with her having equal sexual access to them. Polyandry is believed to be more likely in societies with scarce environmental resources, as it is believed to limit human population growth and enhance child survival. A woman can only have so many children in her lifetime, no matter how many husbands she has. On the other hand, a child with many “fathers”, all of whom provide resources, is more likely to survive.

  621. From the same Wikipedia article:

    According to the Ethnographic Atlas Codebook, of 1231 societies noted, 186 were monogamous. 453 had occasional polygyny, 588 had more frequent polygyny, and 4 had polyandry.[2] At the same time, even within societies which allow polygyny, the actual practice of polygyny occurs relatively rarely. There are exceptions: in Senegal, for example, nearly 47 percent of marriages are multiple.[8] To take on more than one wife often requires considerable resources: this may put polygamy beyond the means of the vast majority of people within those societies.

    The above of course explains why polygamy and “bleeding the beast” would often go hand in hand.

  622. The dangers of Wikipedia:

    The article Polygamy in the US has been edited by someone called “Hoping to help” (gee, does that sound like a FLDS front name or what?)

    The article states the following:

    In 2008, starting on April 4, Texas State officials took 436 children into temporary legal custody after someone claiming to be a 16-year-old girl made a series of phone calls to authorities in late March, claiming she had been beaten and forced to become a “spiritual” wife to an adult man. Acting on her calls, authorities raided the ranch in Eldorado, about 40 miles south of San Angelo. The YFZ Ranch is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy. Two men were arrested for obstructing the raid. The children ranged in age from infants to teenagers, including teenage mothers and pregnant teens.[30][31] The original call that alleged that abuse was occurring turned out to be a hoax. Instead of being a blond, blue-eyed, teen-aged mother, living at the FLDS ranch in Texas as the caller claimed. The caller was actually thirty-three, black, lived in Colorado, had never been part of the FLDS—and has convictions from 2007 for false reporting and obstructing government operations.[32][33] On appeal, all the children were ordered released and the court ruled that the lower court had “abused its discretion” in not returning the children to their families.[34] Texas appealed to the state Supreme Court which sided with the appeals court and ruled that the children never should have been removed from their families.[35]

    This is wrong on several fronts. I’m going to register and try to clean it up some. I’d encourage you guys to do the same. We’ll also need to watch the page because “Hoping to Help” may decide to “help” again.

    Speaking of that, we also could look at other pages and update them with the results of the recent Texas trials.

    Geez, does the FLDS propaganda machine ever rest?

  623. Other Wikipedia articles that need editing or revisions:

    Main FLDS article

    YFZ Ranch article

    I’d encourage you to register. In my mind edits by folks who don’t register are much more suspect than by people who register and document their work.

    I know a bunch of you have much more extensive databases of links than I. I think we also need to provide links to the actual documents on this site. Nothing like the actual document to make the case.

    Remember guys this is an online encyclopedia. Try to write objectively without any spin or hyperbole.

  624. Thanks Ron, great catch.

  625. Please continue on Discussion #23

    Thanks!

    – ADMIN

  626. It’s truly a great and useful piece of info. I’m happy that you just shared this useful info with us. Please keep us informed like this. Thanks for sharing.

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