Open Discussion #21

Continued from Open Discussion #20

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on December 28, 2009.

626 Responses to “Open Discussion #21”

  1. What does 3.2 Beer, toilet paper, HoneyDawn and Buster have in Common?

    Discussion #20

    Please continue on #21

    THANKS – ADMIN

    lol
    Well I can say that this blog owner/operator has a sense of humor. I like that. 🙂

  2. me too walton, me too.

  3. I was wondering when a new open thread was going to show up.

  4. Betcha Honey Dawn is Trent Nelson, lol he at least has a great sense of humor and almost heaven is definetly a spoof on Polygamy.

  5. Betty,
    There were many groups who opposed New York’s Blue Laws.
    The NYS Legislature specifically mentioned accommodation of
    Sabbath observers when they overturned the Blue Laws, but many
    groups welcomed overturning the law.

  6. Okay, can we move on past the beer and wine thingy! Its begining to get boring… 🙂

  7. Sorry there, DD1

  8. I have a confession. Without a drop of booze I thought for a long time that the many blogs were somehow tied in with Big Love and they were using us to get scripts for their show.

    kid you not.

    I had watched the show a few times and I gave myself a headache because so much of it was like reading the many news articles.

  9. Walton, Last year Trent put up a picture on Brookes blog , it was hilarious, of course Flds and their supporters didn’t think it funny at all.
    They tore him a new one for brooke allowing him to put it on her blog.. Seriously,, it was a FUNNY picture.

  10. So, Brooke removed it! Seems Flds and supporters of FLDS don’t have a sense of humor at all.

  11. I think there were two pictures. I knew Trent did one. Bat something. And then there was the one with Warren on a motorcycle. Not sure who did that one.

  12. I think the one on the motorcycle was real, the other one was a joke.

  13. Chemist is incorrect in his belief that a secular divorce equals unsealing in the Mormon faith. It does not. A secular divorce leaves the woman still sealed to her ex-husband. One woman on a blog I read just shared the fact that she just recently recieved a letter from her ex-husband’s bishop telling her that her husband was remarrying (in the temple) and asking her to share how she felt about it and whether or not he was up to date in alimony and child support payments.

    The three heavens are Terrestrial, Telestial, and Celestial. Terestrial is for us foolish gentiles, as near as I can tell, Telestial is for not so good Mormons or fundamentalist Mormons (and neither of these two have forever families and you will not even recognize your family members if you go there) and Celestial is for the faithful who will get to be gods of their own planets one day. Women can, of course, move to CK by becoming a harem member to one of the mysogynistic, tyrannical and perpetually childish men-gods. Men are stuck in the kingdom they are sent too and no one in the lower two kingdoms will have sexual organs anymore.

    (All of this is from what I’ve gleaned on other websites, but I’ve read the scriptures and sermons — mostly sermons — used to back them up.)

  14. Well Mormons are bad about baptizing dead people who weren’t mormon at all into the mormon church. I did a search just out of curiousity, my grandmother, her husband and my dad who were NEVER mormon are on the mormon list!!! It makes me so mad, and don’t know how to get their names off that list!

  15. My grandmother was devout Methodist, and my father Baptist.

  16. where’s the list dd. maybe i should check my baptist relatives and see if they’ve become mormons in the afterlife.

  17. Helen Radkey the woman mormons hate , they did an article on her not long ago, and she gave the site… can’t remember what it was now, but you might look up her name.

  18. World weekly news used a stock Trent photo of Warren in court to paste “Bat Boy” on Warren and made a funny story of him suing Batman.

    World weekly in no way attached it to Warren, but Trent found his picture being abused and posted it, it made a buzz and Brooke linked it.

    Its funnier than hell. FLDS? Screw em if they cant take a joke.

    http://weeklyworldnews.com/area51/2215/bat-boy-sues-batman-in-paternity-suit-2/

  19. HAHAHAH, stamp!!! 🙂

  20. And here is Trents SLTrib blog post that caused steam to come out of FLDS ears.

    Nice juxtaposition.

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/trent/2008/10/warren-jeffs-turns-into-bat-boy/

  21. Well, you can leave me out of the CK for many reasons, not the least of which is that the LDS have posthumously sealed the likes of Adolf Hitler and Ted Bundy. (archive of articles by/about Helen Radkey: http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_helenradkey.html)

  22. I am still catching up on Open Discussion #20

    Re: doctrine of celestial marriage.

    OK, I’m trying to be respectful of Mormons here, but how the heck do they get away with contradicting the words of Christ, while calling themselves a church of Jesus Christ.

    Here is Jesus in the New Testament saying there is no marriage in heaven. In fact, he seems to be saying that all the complicated Mormon-like rules about a man marrying this woman, then that woman, is a bunch of hooey!

    Mark 12:18-34
    Some Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection) came to Jesus, and began questioning Him, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that IF A MAN’s BROTHER DIES and leaves behind a wife AND LEAVES NO CHILD, HIS BROTHER SHOULD MARRY THE WIFE AND RAISE UP CHILDREN TO HIS BROTHER. “There were seven brothers; and the first took a wife and died leaving no children. The second one married her, and died leaving behind no children; and the tired likewise; and so all seven left no children. Last of all the woman died also. In the resurrection, when they rise again, which one’s wife will she be? For all seven had married her.”

    Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, THEY NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE, but are like angles in heaven.

  23. Oh, wait. It gets better! Seems the LDS are posthumously pulling FLDS/fundie Mormons back into the fold, including Rulon Allred, Rulon Jeffs and ERVIL LEBARON! http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_helenradkey.html#pub_-1963040891

  24. i found my father and maternal grandparents in the igi database, but how do you tell if they were baptized mormon after they died?

  25. Yuppers Anon E Mouse, seems some religions change the old and new testament. Ignore scriptures they don’t like.

  26. Actually Rulon was originally Baptised into the LDS, before he went fundemental.
    Proud Texan, People submit names to the mormon church, most of the time they get them off death certificates, and add them after they have died.

  27. Yeah, but Rulon was excommunicated, so he had to be added back into the fold.

  28. Willie might want to check out that Bigfoot diet.

    I’m taking a poll…

    Willie’s head and Bigfoot’s body

    or

    Bigfoot’s head and Willie’s body

    ?

  29. Twist, that’s too close to call. LOL

  30. Well since they have never found bigfoot,, seems he is pretty smart.
    So I would have to go with Willie’s body, cause there are no brains in his head

  31. PT,

    I found some great-greats through the LDS center in Denton some years ago and their file on the microfilm had the dates when they were baptized and sealed by proxy into the LDS church.

    I just looked at them on the FamilySearch.org database and it doesn’t seem to provide that information.

  32. i think willie’s head and bigfoot’s body.

  33. OK, I’ll have to see what kind of records we have around here. Thanks Twist.

  34. Reading up on the Celestial Kingdom as interpreted by the LDS church, it appears that persons baptized by proxy are offered a choice to accept or reject once they arrive at whatever destination they merited.

    I haven’t quite figured out if the official LDS position is that plural marriage is a requirement for the CK or not. Seems to be a matter of some debate.

    I can’t seem to locate a definitive LDS position on the issue.

  35. Willie – Bigfoot

    Bigfoot – Willie

    There’s a difference?

  36. The key appears to be in how they are interpreting the term “celestial marriage.”

  37. “There’s a difference?”

    Going by the photo on Trent’s blog that you linked, I’d say the difference is about 150 pounds unless Bigfoot indulged over the Christmas holiday.

  38. Personally, I think Willie has Foot and Mouth disease, any cure for that?? LOL

  39. Apparently the Mormons plan on “saving” the entire human race, living and dead, by proxy baptising anybody they can get their hands on, including the Jews, whose requests that this insulting practise be halted are ignored.

    Is this so the special white guys who get to the top of the heap and are rewarded with their own planet will have lots of subjects to rule over? You can’t be a ruler if you don’t have subjects.

    Sorry, but the more I read about the mainstream LDS, the less respect I have.

  40. I don’t disrespect anyone because of their beliefs, I have a few friends who are mormon, but I don’t want anyone of any other belief baptizing me into their church without my permission

  41. I know it’s not that important, DD. It’s just that my BS detector was buzzing non stop. I hate it when that happens.

  42. Lol anonymous

  43. Personally, I think Willie has Foot and Mouth disease, any cure for that?? LOL

    ………………..

    Reading the transcripts of the statements he makes outside of courtrooms, he is almost unintelligable. Speaks to the quality of FLDS education.

  44. Twist: Reading up on the Celestial Kingdom as interpreted by the LDS church, it appears that persons baptized by proxy are offered a choice to accept or reject once they arrive at whatever destination they merited.

    ………………………..

    What are their beliefs re: baptism by other religions, do they consider them “good enough?”

    I’ve already been baptized in my own church, thenkyouveddymuch.

    I know some faiths don’t believe in infant baptism, and I understand why, but the baptisms of babies in my church are so gentle and beautiful. They are performed during services, and the whole church community agrees to watch over the children and keep them safe.

  45. Anon E,

    Not unless the baptism was performed in the manner revealed to Joseph Smith and conducted by someone with priesthood authority.

    In other words, “no, not good enough.”

    —-

    Baptism in the Lord’s Way

    The Savior revealed the true method of baptism to the Prophet Joseph Smith, making clear that the ordinance must be performed by one having priesthood authority and that it must be done by immersion:

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=2&locale=0&vgnextoid=76bd3f7719605010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD

  46. Well I don’t know who Honey Dawn is but I know for a fact that her IP is a Google/Blogger IP and not one associated with the Trib.

    Actually, for a long time, I’ve wondered if it’s Stamp. Come on Stamp, if it’s you – fess up.

  47. Ron

    OK I will fess up

    NOT me.

    Although I have posted there, about 4-5 times max.

    She has way more patience for duane than I could stomach.

  48. But I did play a plyg on the Plural life, and you and TBM roasted me for my poor english skills ha ha.

    Have you ever seen Ruth post? She is often on texaspolygamy.blogspot.com

    Phew!

  49. I actually feel sorry for Ruth, she is so misled, and has some mental problems im thinking

  50. Got a question… I see where you guys are able to find people who have been baptised back into the LDS fold after death. Do any of you know how you can find out if your name is still on their records if you were baptised in a Mormon church as a child but not attended in over 50 years? I’d like to have my name removed if it’s there, but, if it’s already gone for non attendance, then I’m good to go. 🙂 Thanks.

  51. kasoe, ive been looking for site all morning,, I thought I saved it in my fav’s file, but havent been able to find it.. However, Im sure your name is still on the list.

  52. kasoe

    Guaranteed you are on the list, and you may find it frustrating to get it off. The best bet is to google and get advice.

  53. FLDS leader Warren Jeffs awaits criminal trial in Arizona

    Dave Hawkins in Kingman, Arizona…anyone who wants to know more about Mr. Hawkins is welcome to drop me a line;)

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/28/flds-leader-warren-jeffs-awaits-criminal-trial/

    “The stink of Texas is not just the stink of the evidence, it’s once you get the stink on you, what else does it taint?” Piccarreta said. “The Texas authorities are going to have to come to Arizona and answer for their behavior before a neutral judge.”

    A neutral judge my….

  54. DD, I have looked for a site before but never found one. That’s why I thought I’d ask. And you’re probably right about it still being there. If they’re willing to baptise people that are not at time of death, never had been or never would have been Mormon, why in the world would they remove a name that was put there legitimately. And since I have learned so much since April ’08 (as an adult and can make my own choice), it’s gotta come off! I mean no offense to any Mormons out there but I would rather not be one.

  55. Thanks, Stamp, I’ll try that.

  56. kasoe, I agree with Stamp. From every ex-Mormon site I’ve read, it seems they never take anyone off the rolls, and you have to jump through hoops to get your name removed. Here’s a link to just one site; there are many, so do get to googlin’. 🙂 http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_resignation.html

  57. Thank you TexasConnie, it’s a start. Appreciate it.

  58. The stink of Texas is not just the stink of the evidence, it’s once you get the stink on you, what else does it taint?” Piccarreta said. “The Texas authorities are going to have to come to Arizona and answer for their behavior before a neutral judge.”
    ***********************
    What the hell?
    This guy is not only nuts, but a fruitcake!! Judge Conn has NO jurisdiction over Texas!
    Anyone who would defend that scuzball, is covered with stench as far as Im concerned.

  59. “The stink of Texas is not just the stink of the evidence, it’s once you get the stink on you, what else does it taint?” Piccarreta said. “The Texas authorities are going to have to come to Arizona and answer for their behavior before a neutral judge.”

    A neutral judge my….

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Texas doesn’t have to answer to arizona for anything.

  60. OMG! I see what you mean about being frustating! I just read a little from the site TC provided and it looks like my parents sold my soul as a child to the Mormon Church. Wow, this is gonna be fun…..

  61. The only thing an LDS person needs to do to get their name removed from the church records is to write a letter requesting it, sign the letter and send it to the LDS bishop for the ward they currently reside in.

  62. ProudTexan,

    Talk about my redneck side comin’ out…I think my hair almost did a flip right off my head when I read that.

    Judge Conn, the judge who imposed a sentence of 45 days in county jail for Kelly Fischer, who was convicted for the same thing in his court that we just convicted Allan Keate of here in Texas.

    Of course, a Texas jury decided 33 years in prison was a just punishment, rather than 45 days in jail.

    But Conn is “neutral”, uh huh, okay.

  63. None of my family ever belonged to the Mormon church Chemist, but their names are on the list,, the names submitted by someone I never heard of?

  64. If you are an ex mormon, why do you really care if you are on the rolls? If you don’t believe that their view of the cosmos is true, why do you care where in that cosmos you are positioned? I noticed that on the exmormon website, there seem to be a lot of people traumatized by the fact that no one has told them they are released from the church officially, which sounds like an emotional problem to me.

  65. Kasoe,
    To get your name off the church records as a member you have to offically resign from the church in writing. I did about five years ago and they sent me a “offical you’re going to hell” letter. I had not been an active member since the early seventies and did not want to be counted as a member any longer. There are websites that will help you with information on letter format along with the address where to send your resignation.

  66. i just watched the dateline program on when the children were taken and it dawned on me that the 2 men they chose to give the tours and interviews are brothers of the 2 men who have been convicted so far. Rich Jessop is the brother of Raymond Jessop and Rulon Keate is the brother of Allan Keate. Such pillars of citizenship.

    There was also wee willie and rod parker thrown in for good measure.

  67. Why is it suspicious that Elissa has financial backing to help her, but not suspicious that Jeffs has financial backing to help him?

  68. Seems Arizona needs to strengthen thier laws! along with Utah!

  69. I’m sure the Catholic Church still thinks I’m a member, but I don’t lie awake at night worrying about it.

  70. I also just found out that Mohave County has just signed a big fat new contract with R&W Excavating—Willie’s company…and they’ve also let another FLDS member back onto their health review board…..oh my Mohave County we’re floating backwards aren’t we?

    Did you think for one minute we’d take our eyes off of you? Hmmm?

  71. Betty, some ex-members want their names off the rolls because they take it personally that the Mormon church touts their membership numbers, knowing it includes thousands of people who are no longer Mormon. I guess it’s a matter of principle for some exes, although I think it’s a very small minority who go through the effort of getting their names off the rolls.

  72. I’ve never lost a minute of sleep worrying whether the church thinks I’m a member or not. I was born into the church and as an adult I have the choice of not being counted as member. I needed to distance myself from the cult.

  73. Boots,
    What is the Mohave County Health Review Board ?
    Sounds …. interesting…

  74. I guess to me, taking my ancestors, who i KNEW were never mormon and adding them to the church rolls, just pissed me off.. I know they were never mormon, and of course they are dead, but its like disturbing someones grave to me!

  75. Actually, I think its arrogant for them to pull that crap!

  76. Betty, obviously you weren’t traumatized by your exposure to it that badly. Think how traumatized you would have to be to have that eating away at you. You’re right, it’s obviously very emotional.

    Along with many other Jews, I’m already irritated that they keep “baptizing” us posthumously. What’s worse is that they keep lying and saying they have stopped…and then they get caught again and they say they will stop…

    Do I believe in VooDoo dolls? Nope, but it would sure creep me out to find out someone was actually sticking pins into one made to look like me.

    I think there is a creepy/icky factor that goes beyond reason and logic.

  77. I can understand that TexasConnie, but sometimes you just have to learn that you can’t control other people and their opinions don’t reflect on you. I find the baptism of the dead offensive, but I’m not going to spend a lot of time and energy trying to get them to stop.

  78. What’s the big deal with having your name removed? If you don’t believe then let it go. At least if it’s the true church you have half of a foot in the door in the end. If it’s not the true church then your name is just carved in a rock somewhere lol

  79. Im not even going to begin a debate on the so called “true Church”. Its silly! But, I have a thing about having my name of that of my family put on lists!! without permission.

  80. ruthies girl, which ruth do you belong to?

  81. Boots,

    I guess I would not be so much concerned about the voodoo doll as about the fact that someone wanted to hurt me badly enough to make one.

    My husband’s ex sent us a letter in which she said that she prayed that God would destroy us for our sins and said that she was still his wife in the eyes of God and I am an unGodly harlot. Mind you, now, I did not meet him until after they were separated and he and I have been legally married for 14 years, so her still being upset about it is way past weird. It actually scared me for a few days, wondering if she was going to do a drive by shooting, you know, give God a little help in destroying us, cause He was taking his time. I wanted to have my mailbox fumigated after that letter and I actually called the local sheriff to ask him if that was a legal threat that could get me a TRO. He said no. But after a few days, I got over it and moved on. You shouldn’t dwell on things you can’t change.

    I guess I’m just saying that the LDS don’t have a corner on the crazy market, nor did they invent unethical manipulation of their members. Or mysogyny. There is some creepy, ugly stuff about women in the Old Testament and in the Koran. We are recommending that the LDS remove the offending portions of the D&C, but are we suggesting that parts of the OT be changed? Should we take out the stuff that says that adulterers should be killed, for instance? What about the passage about not allowing a witch to live, and those that define witch as a woman who “counts days”? That could be construed as meaning that any woman using the rhythm method should be killed.

    Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot in the history of the LDS that I abhor, and I’m not keen on the fact that many active members don’t acknowledge their own past. However, I’m not a fan of the Inquisition or the witch hunts of the Protestants, either.

  82. The issue of posthumous baptisms and resistance to taking people whom request it off their roles has caused a lot of angst against the LDS church from ex members and other religions.

    It hasn’t been the best PR.

  83. Pic’s just pissed off cause Texas HAS evidence and it stinks to him cause it just makes it that much harder to him to do what he wants to do. Yeah, I can just see TX going to AZ to answer to anyone.

  84. Thank you Chemist. That’s simple enough and will be my first step. And as I said I mean no offense to you or any other Mormons. My stand is that I don’t want to be affiliated to ANY religion. Learned my lesson a long time ago about that. I can run my life just fine without having a church breathing down my neck trying to run it for me.

    And I realize the Mormon church is not bothering me, but I still don’t want my name on their books especially after learning how the church was started and some of their doctrines. Had I understood this as a child, I would have stood my ground and refused to join the church. And, I too am not loosing any sleep over it. It’s a principal thing I guess.

  85. Thats it Kasoe,,, “Principal”!

  86. Hey my post just disappeared!

    Cat, Dr. Lehi Barlow was just slipped back onto the Mohave County Health Board. We got him kicked off once, but they have put him back on.

    Buster couldn’t stop them. He is only one vote of three.

    He was also unable to stop them from awarding R&W Excavating, Willie’s company, with a big fat county contract.

    Gee, as long as Piccarretta is so concerned about “the flow of money”, maybe we should be asking why Mohave County is once again in financial bed with an FLDS mouth piece, too.

    Matt Smith [supposedly] prosecutes them, and the board of supervisors hires them and writes them checks….Hmmm.

  87. 🙂 Did I use the right “principal”? I always get them confused. I need some more learnin’…

  88. it’s the principle of the thing. the other is the pal, principal like one in school.

  89. Betty,

    I understand what you are saying, really I do. But some people, based on principle or even feelings just need to know they have done something to “remove” themselves.

    Like medicine, religion can help you or hurt you. I don’t let it bother me that some of the “Christians” I know are convinced I’m on my way to Hell in a handbasket either.

  90. Im not even going to begin a debate on the so called “true Church”. Its silly! But, I have a thing about having my name of that of my family put on lists!! without permission.

    I’m with you DD. I know it’s silly and doesn’t mean anything, but it’s a boundary issue.

    Leave my eternal soul to me. I’ll work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. (Hmmm, or perhaps wine and song!)

  91. It’s nice to agree with you, Ron.

  92. Uh Huh Ron, exactly!

  93. I called Greg Abbott’s office for a response to Piccaretta, for the Texas News Moment. They were nice enough to get back to me pretty quickly but I missed deadline and will have to air it tomorrow instead:

    Katie,

    Below is a statement from Jerry Strickland, Communications Director for the Texas Attorney General’s Office:

    “The statements by Warren Jeffs’ attorney are without merit, and are not based on facts and evidence. A four-day hearing conducted earlier this year in Texas revealed evidence that officers acted properly in responding to evidence of sexual assault of children and other crimes observed at the YFZ Ranch. That evidence has now been used in two cases in which juries have found — beyond a reasonable doubt — that such crimes occurred and have sentenced those two convicted men to prison for sexual assault of children.”

  94. It’s nice to agree with you, Ron.

    Boots – we both want to end up at the same place. We just disagree on the path to get there.

  95. Well, Boots, it sure meant a lot to me when I got my divorce papers in the mail, so I guess I can understand.

  96. I’m not defending Judge Conn, but he couldn’t have sentenced Fischer to anything near 33 years even if he’d been inclined to.

    Sexual conduct with a minor (15, 16 or 17) in Arizona is a Class 6 felony and the penalties are light.

    Additionally, the judge also has the discretion in Class 6 felonies to leave the conviction unclassified as either a felony or misdemeanor and may classify it as a misdemeanor once any probation period is complete.

    That is one of the things Conn did regarding Fischer’s sentence.

  97. For Ron,

  98. Thank you Proud Texan for the lesson. I felt like I had screwed that one up. Just goes to show, never too old to learn. 🙂

  99. Rulon Keate is the brother of Allan Keate. Such pillars of citizenship.
    actually Rulon is Allens son or nephew

  100. Son of Allen Keate.

    Rulon Jeffs Keate. His mother is Nora Jeffs who is Warren’s full sister.

  101. Boots,
    I am about to email you privately regarding the medical board….

  102. Judge Conn was wrong. He should have sentenced to the max. time allowed by law.
    Fischer got his step daughter pregnant while still married to her mother.
    Meaning she slept with her mothers husband (her step-father). When she read a letter in court she not only said she loved her father but her husband which was the same man. Messed up beyond anything I’d ever heard in a courtroom.
    Here is what Conn had to say later:” The practice of plural marriage isn’t the only religious belief he finds odd.
    Conn said he believes Fischer was motivated by “sincere religious” conviction when he took his 16-year-old stepdaughter as a plural wife. ”

    Please read the rest here:
    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2006/08/not-a-true-believer/

    This girl was raised to think this is normal. And her children are being raised knowing that their daddy is also their grandpa.

  103. Boots Said :
    Like medicine, religion can help you or hurt you. I don’t let it bother me that some of the “Christians” I know are convinced I’m on my way to Hell in a handbasket either.

    Boots, It is God’s job to judge us all –
    and I am going to leave that to HaShem.
    It is our job to love every one sacrificially.
    By taking decisive action to ensure justice for
    the oppressed, we will both be acting in concert
    to demonstrate that sacrificial love.

  104. Walton,
    It has been well documented in the medical literature that there is an increased incidence of incest in polygamous households, so I am not surprised by this at all. What does surprise and horrify me is that LE doesn’t take effective action against those who commit these acts.

  105. Boots

    What is “nice?” Isn’t that nothing more than a concept you create in your head? Good, bad, nice, not nice, those are all terms that you create in your head.

    You can be ready to “make nice” or be not ready to “make nice” it’s all arbitrary and in your own worldview. Frankly, even if I could understand it, it wouldn’t make a tinkers damn to me.

  106. rulon jeffs keate is allan’s brother. he’s the son of eldon and ann jeffs.

  107. take a look at this …. Winston Blackmore damns us all..

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/polygamist-predicts-opponents-will-be-damned/article1413003/

  108. Since Warren Jeffs disinherited the UEP trust and short Creek and all those FLDS still members in those communities. It certainly seems plausable to me, to allow residents (members) living in those houses to purchase the houses and own them. Considering Warren Jeffs and those at YFZ ranch have also disinherited those FLDS members, why should they continue sending and donating money to a group who started a new life at YFZ ranch. Warren dusted his feet and walked away from Flds in Short Creek, and Im willing to think those member would gladly own and keep their houses. I certainly wouldn’t redonate my house after the way the so called prophet made it clear, the only ones destined to any kind of heaven were at YFZ ranch, period!!
    ****************************************

    This is a comment I wanted to post on a new story at the tribune on Arizona AG. But it wont allow anyone to post!

    http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_14082978

  109. Strange I can post on other stories, but not this one??

  110. How about the fact, FLDS are being investigated by FBI for illegal business pratices, and their Corporations held by members are also being investigated? Its called money laundering, fraud, and YES i think its okay to NOT do business with those kinds of businesses.

  111. Hello Anon 9:21 pm :
    What is a doctor (Lehi Barlow) doing practicing medicine when he should by all rights lose his license for engaging in the felony crime of polygamy ?
    By rights, he should lose his license for doing so, and should not serve on any board.

  112. Thanks for bringing the links over. Winston is another big fat liar. And I’m not talking about the size of the man but the size of the LIES.

    Winston is an experiment that has gone wrong. jmo

  113. Walton,

    Certainly it would have been better if Judge Conn had applied the maximum sentence.

    Absent mitigating factors (as in Fischer’s case), the maximum on two counts of a Class C felony is four years and that is only if these sentences are run consecutively.

    What I’m saying is that the Arizona statutes are part of the problem.

    We rail about Utah, but Arizona makes them look good.

  114. After reading this post, the best answer I can come up with after reading this post is to ask the LDS why? They have set up a website at: http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/ask-a-question/chat-live They also have a phone line for questions
    1-888-537-6600
    Perhaps they can answer your questions.

    Reading up on the Celestial Kingdom as interpreted by the LDS church, it appears that persons baptized by proxy are offered a choice to accept or reject once they arrive at whatever destination they merited.

    I haven’t quite figured out if the official LDS position is that plural marriage is a requirement for the CK or not. Seems to be a matter of some debate.

    I can’t seem to locate a definitive LDS position on the issue.

    texastwist said this on December 28, 2009 at 11:35 AM

  115. “Use this feature to speak with a missionary online.”

    From the American Heritage dictionary:

    mis-sion-a-ry n. 1. A propagandist for a belief or a cause. 2. One who attempts to convert others to a particular doctrine or a set of principles.

    Thanks, but I’ll pass as I’m only looking for information.

  116. maybe one will come to your door twist. they appear at my door from time to time.

  117. texastwist are we talking about the same thing? Judge Conn could have easily given Fisher the max. He(Judge Steven F. Conn) chose not to. He chose to do the phoo phoo wave.

    Kelly Fischer, 39, must begin serving his sentence for two class 6 felony convictions – sexual conduct with a minor and conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor – no later than Nov. 6.

    “In my family, there is no one pressured into anything they did not want to do,” Fischer told Mohave County Superior Court Judge Steven F. Conn. “In my family, every single person is happy. There is no one in pain; there is no one having to pick up the pieces.”

    Fischer is a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a polygamous sect.

    Conn had the option of sentencing Fischer from four months to two years in prison or placing him on probation. The judge said he struggled with the sentence, realizing Fischer was not a typical sexual predator and that his plural wife does not consider herself a victim. The judge noted that the relationship, approved by her parents, would have been legal if Fischer had not already been married and they had legally wed.
    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy500.html

  118. Ron, you are so right. You will never understand me, or anything I stand for at all.

    I accept that.

    What it means, is even if you don’t like what I do, I will keep doing it.

    To me, that means you don’t think I’m “nice”, and I don’t particularly care.

    I have found, when dealing with “the law” that I much prefer lawmen to lawyers.

    Your case is certainly no exception. I wouldn’t let it worry you though, cause its all just in my head anyway, lol.

  119. I dunno…most of what I’m reading in Winston Blackmore’s piece seems to be aimed at his former brethren in the FLDS, the Warrenites.

    “You folks that are so stuck on the One Man thing…When whole congregations bow to new teachings that contradict what Christ has already said then they are shifting their foundation from His church to their new man.”

    His prediction of a bad year is directed in part to “presidents, bishops, counsellors, trustees, spokespersons….”

  120. This is off topic:

    They found another burned body in Box Elder County Utah.

  121. We do seem to be miscommunicating, Walton.

    I’m not defending Judge Conn; I’m criticizing the state of Arizona for their pitiful statutes.

    What I’m saying is that a two-year maximum sentence for an offense like Fischer’s is a joke.

    Arizona judges could throw the book at offenders who take underage “wives” until the cows come home, but the classification and maximum punishment doesn’t even have the heft of a 1/4 inch paperback.

  122. Gotcha texastwist. Thanks for being patient. A two year sentence is a joke. But what the heck is wrong with this Judge? He heard in person what was said in court. I only read the words. Surely he should have been able to see the impact that this was going to have not only on that young girl but the future of her children.

  123. Has Arizona done anything to their incest law to make it apply to persons under 18?

    Matt Smith made a good point in his Responses to Piccarreta’s successful motions to dismiss the conspiracy to commit incest charges against Warren Jeffs.

    An adult in Arizona who has sex with their 15, 16 or 17-year-old sister (brother, cousin, etc.) is charged as a Class 6 felony (two year maximum sentence possible).

    If they have sex with an adult sister (brother, cousin, etc.), they can be charged as a Class 4 felony which can carry a maximum possible sentence of 3.75 years.

    If you’re going to have sex with a sister (brother, cousin, etc.) in Arizona, best to do it while they are 15, 16 or 17 and not when they are an adult.

  124. I couldn’t begin to guess what he was thinking, Walton.

    I am beginning to get a better sense of the frustration that must be in the Arizona prosecutors and investigators.

    Gary Engels was quoted in one of the articles on Fischer’s sentence that he didn’t think they had succeeded in sending a message that the behavior will not be tolerated.

    Major understatement, but I don’t know that a maximum sentence under the Arizona statutes send any kind of a message other than “carry on.”

  125. The LDS church wants to give EVERYONE living and dead the chance to be baptized into their church. They think they are “saving” those who weren’t enlightened before they died.

    They did the baptism for the dead by proxy jive on the Jews. The Jews said “no thanks, please stop”.

    The Mormons didn’t stop. They kept on secretly baptizing “by proxy” these Holocaust victims into the LDS church.

    Numbers (member counts) – on the books are VERY important for the Mormons.

    So, what are YOU going to do when Mitt Romney runs again next time for US President?

    It will happen, he will run.

  126. anonymous said this on December 28, 2009 at 9:21 PM

    “It is illegal to discriminate on the basis of religion.
    If the only reason Lehi Barlow was denied a seat on the board and Willie’s company denied a contract was their status as followers of the FLDS creed, that would open the county up to a massive lawsuit.”

    Anon, last time I checked polygamy was a felony, in every state, including Arizona.

    Also, the last time I checked, polygamy was NOT a religion, just like female genital mutilation or stoning of disobedient women or any other human rights abuse is not a religion.

    Willie Jessop is a known, practicing polygamist. I don’t particularly give a rat’s behind what religion he uses to inflict the abuse, or justify his crime, he is still a criminal, and Mohave County still doesn’t care.

    Has Dr. Barlow ever delivered a baby to an underage girl impregnated by an older man- and failed to report it to the proper authorities?

    You can just bet yer boots we will be going through years of birth certificates with his signature on them to find out…and when we do? Bye Bye Medical License Dr. Barlow.

    What other blatant crimes can someone commit in Mohave County and still be awarded government contracts? Oh, that’s right, just polygamy.

    Polygamy isn’t a religion. Nice try, though no cigar for YOU.

  127. Yes, Romney will run again. In fact I don’t think he has quit running. I do believe that the group has been tidying up a bit before the next election. jmo

    Do you guys remember what Willie said in that last article from San Angelo? The FLDS have been here 150 years and they will be here another 150. I don’t think it was a slip of the tongue. I think Willie was trying to say what he believes. They all hold hands.

    President Hinckley said that there was no such thing as Mormon Fundamentalists. At the time I thought how can he say that when there is the Kingstons, the Allreds, Warrens Group. Maybe he said that because really there isn’t a true seperation.??? No offense meant to anyone.

    But what if? What about the 8 hour meeting? What about John Taylors vision?

    If Taylor was in hiding because he was practicing polygamy how could he still be the president of the Church? If he wasn’t acting President then why all the statues of John Taylor?

    Just what if? As John Taylor said that all those who would continue to practice Polygamy despite what the Big Church did and said that they would be taken care of forever and a day?
    Pool their monies and the membership grows and grows and grows. What if?

  128. I don’t know how or why anyone would award a contract to anyone that is being investigated for criminal activity. From what I understand that if they are putting in for a government bid they have to submit in writing that they are being investigated.

    I am surely no lawyer and I have zip knowledge about legal talk. But that is how I understand it to be in the outside world.

    Boots I love it when you get fired up.:)

  129. I think the LDS believe that the term mprmon applies to them. Therefore there could not be any fundamental mormons, reformed mormons, reorganized mormons, etc.

  130. The LDS church wants to give EVERYONE living and dead the chance to be baptized into their church. They think they are “saving” those who weren’t enlightened before they died.
    —–
    So, do they comb the obits, in all the papers, state to stae and look for non mormons to baptize? Today we’ll baptize all the dead in New Hampshire??? Next Sunday, we’ll do Kentucky??

  131. Keep trying, Anon.

    Is he the only doctor who delivered a baby to a mother under the age of 18?

    I’m not sure, do you have the names of some more we should be checking?

    Because he may not be the “only one”, should we give him a free pass on the crime?

    “A doctor’s chief job is to ensure the health of their patient, not report them to law enforcment”.

    Yes, the girl who has been raped is the Dr.’s patient, sir, not the rapist. Let’s hope y’all get that figured out up there, real soon.

    Many people are guilty of crimes. Not everyone gets caught. Dr. Barlow is about to be caught.

    Get used to it.

  132. catwhisperer,

    Thank you for this. I do love me some real Christian friends:)

    “Boots, It is God’s job to judge us all –
    and I am going to leave that to HaShem.
    It is our job to love every one sacrificially.
    By taking decisive action to ensure justice for
    the oppressed, we will both be acting in concert
    to demonstrate that sacrificial love”.

  133. And Anon, as far as your claim that all FLDS business practices are squeaky clean?

    ROFLMAO!!!!!

    If I had the money to do it, I’d be sitting up there taking pictures of every job site Willie has going, so I could photo document any child labor violations being committed.

    Wait, no I wouldn’t, because it would be a complete WASTE of time to show it to ANY law enforcement up there.

    Just like it was a complete WASTE of time trying to explain to law enforcement in Phoenix that when a 15 year old boy died in a fall at a construction company accident, it was an FLDS owned company. Why wasn’t that 15 year old boy in a classroom, where he belonged, instead of performing dangerous construction work in the middle of the day?

    They don’t give a carp.

    Welcome to Texas, where we do and…

    Get used to it.

  134. I’m still wondering where were all the YFZ boys. Out on a job site instead of at home and in a classroom during the schoolday?

  135. Boots, that really was a laugh, about the squeaky clean bookkeeping and all.

  136. Boots

    I get exactly where you’re coming from. It’s all just black and white isn’t it? The solutions are all just simple, huh?

    All you and folks like your ill-spoken buddy Buster do is play into the FLDS meme of people hating them and wanting to harm them.

    In your zeal to stop oppression you’re willing to become the oppressor. You’re a victim who now seeks to become a victimizer.

    Guess what? Your strategy has been tried before. It didn’t work.

  137. Yes, the girl who has been raped is the Dr.’s patient, sir, not the rapist. Let’s hope y’all get that figured out up there, real soon.
    ======================================================
    By the same token Boots, the suspected rape victim is the Doctor’s patient, not the state.

  138. Yeah, I can just see TX going to AZ to answer to anyone.
    ====================================================
    I would suggest Texas authorities do so. If not, the Arizona can refuse to extradite WJ for trial.

  139. Sorry alin, I doubt it’ll work that way for you. Is that what you’re thinking StinkyPic’s strategy is?

  140. That judge over StinkyPic there in AZ appears likely to disagree with alin.

  141. Hello Anon 12:33 AM
    I would bet that Lehi is not the only doctor who has delivered an underaged baby – but all doctors are required to report it when underaged girls give birth.
    If they don’t report it – that is professional misconduct.
    BTW, it is also a felony for a doctor to have sex with an underaged person, male or female. So how many child brides does Lehi have, anon 12:33 AM?
    When any doctor does engages in a crime, such as sex with a minor, it is bye – bye medical license. It takes approximately 100,000 dollars in legal fees to defend your license against a charge of misconduct – hope Lehi is wealthy….

  142. Ron said this:”I get exactly where you’re coming from. It’s all just black and white isn’t it? The solutions are all just simple, huh?

    All you and folks like your ill-spoken buddy Buster do is play into the FLDS meme of people hating them and wanting to harm them.

    In your zeal to stop oppression you’re willing to become the oppressor. You’re a victim who now seeks to become a victimizer.

    Guess what? Your strategy has been tried before. It didn’t work.”

    I am not Boots but I think I might be one of “those folks like ill-spoken buddy Buster”.

    Wow Ron. I am not sure how much you know about the history behind all this goes but Gov. Pyle tried to stop it all years ago. It took many by surprise but even the LDS Church was behind him untill….. the phoo phoo hand-waving crowd came out of hiding.

    Well it appears to me the phoo phoo hand-waving spineless group hasn’t done a whole lot of good either now has it?

    I think Shurtleffs words were something like this – We aren’t going to prosecute polygamy. We are going after those that are breaking 1 and 2 laws. Huh?

    They get a pass on breaking law number 1. Polygamy and maybe even a pass on 2 laws being broken but on number three they’ll getcha? What the heck kind of thinking is that? Is that the same pass they give everyone in Utah? Not!

    Maybe Buster didn’t say things the way that appeals to everyone. But you know he has a point. Interpretation is the key.

    I took it that action needs to be taken.

  143. alin – in the US, you don’t get to not send a prisoner to the next place because you disagree with them. the only thing az can do is not give texas the next shot at trying him. the way i see it, pic is just trying to drag the az trial out so texas won’t get him any time soon. it doesn’t matter to texas if az convicts him or not, as soon as their trial is over he’s on his way to texas.

  144. Walton

    What won’t work is rounding them all up. Don’t folks see that the massive fail of the CPS action was taking all those kids? That massive fail is still causing problems.

    I don’t disagree that action is needed. What’s not needed is stupid action.

  145. To anon who wrote about how legit FLDS businesses are,, HAHAHAH

    Do you research, if you added all the IRS tax liens about business owners of FLDS businesses it goes way up in the Millions!!
    They don’t pay their taxes, personal, employee withholidings etc.
    They do most work IN CASH, which is against the law, the men and children who work for them are entitled to have taxes and SSI taken out of their checks, so when they do retire, they have social security and medicare.
    They have neve claimed religious exemptions, and even if they did, those who work daily for them are afforded the same tax withholding everyone else has to have.
    If I owed the IRS 100,000 dollars in back employee withholding, do you think I would be setting here typing? Hell no!

  146. alin – in the US, you don’t get to not send a prisoner to the next place because you disagree with them
    ==============================================
    Not really. If what you said is true courts in the US wouldn’t bother holding extradition hearings.

    Do you research, if you added all the IRS tax liens about business owners of FLDS businesses it goes way up in the Millions!!
    —————————————————-
    Aye they did report it. Unfortunately a lot of the businesses didn’t have the cash on hand to pay the taxes they reported so the IRS put a lien on their businesses until the taxes are caught up.

  147. Kasoe,
    If you were ever baptised and have not resigned you are still a member. This site will show you where to send your resignation letter and has examples of good resignation letters.

    http://packham.n4m.org/leaving.htm

  148. Alin,, noooooo, you see most Flds businesses have liens from 2004-2009 and they haven’t been released by IRS, which means, after a certain period of time,, JAIL TIME happens!!!
    And NO, what they do, is they just start a NEW business in another person’s name, and continue racking up tax bills!
    Instead of making excuses for them Alinusara, you should be mad as hell,, because for those of us who pay our taxes, we are also paying for dead beats who don’t!

  149. “I’m sure the Catholic Church still thinks I’m a member, but I don’t lie awake at night worrying about it.”

    Betty, the LDS church is actually more invasive into people’s lives than the Catholic Church. A lot of ex-members are dealing with a great deal of pain and being counted on the rolls increases their pain. Yes, it’s an emotional issue. It’s an emotional issue about dealing with abuse. For them, removing their names from the rolls is part of the recovery process.

  150. Alin,, noooooo, you see most Flds businesses have liens from 2004-2009 and they haven’t been released by IRS, which means, after a certain period of time,, JAIL TIME happens!!!
    =======================================================
    It’s possible I guess. In the cases of most small businesses that I know of what happens is the IRS seizes the assets then sell them off at auction to pay off the liability. I have heard of people going to jail on fraud but I haven’t heard lately of anyone going to jail because they cannot pay a tax bill. Well other then child support I guess but even that is fairly rare.

  151. Betty: If you are an ex mormon, why do you really care if you are on the rolls? If you don’t believe that their view of the cosmos is true, why do you care where in that cosmos you are positioned?

    …………………………….

    That’s a good point Betty. As far as I’m concerned, Joseph Smith was a liar and a con man, so it’s all a moot point – there is no Mormon “Celestial Kingdom,” there is only God’s Kingdom and we don’t need permission from Joseph Smith to get in.

    But many people find it offensive and insulting to their own religion. I read that Jews in particular are offended that Mormoms baptized Holocaust victims.

  152. It’s offensive, Anon E Mouse, because it circumvents Free Agency — something Joseph Smith instituted. If I wanted to be Mormon I would have been one. For someone to baptise me after my death is to invade my personal boundries in making my own choices. For someone to insist that a member who has left is still a member, as the LDS used to do — they didn’t start allowing “resignations” until a lawsuit forced them to — is negating a person’s free agency to worship what and how they believe. It’s a boundary issue that the Mormon Church STILL does not understand. Frankly, it’s pretty close to stalking, in my book.

  153. Rebeckah,

    I understand the desire, I just don’t think it’s particularly effective. They are saying that they left that community because it was dysfunctional and then they want a functional response on exit. Hello?

    It’s because I have experienced abuse and studied it that I say this – the abused should stop looking to the abusers for release. It’s very unlikely.

    I’ve known children of an aloholic parent try to meet with the parent and get an apology. There may be some benefit in asking. In some cases, the parent might have recovered or maybe they’re just having a good day or maybe they say whatever you want to hear and you get an apology. But more likely, you will just get a speech on how you were the reason for your own abuse.

  154. Of course, I think baptism of the dead is offensive. Haven’t I said that? I just think it might be more healthy if people who have left a bad situation make peace with it themselves instead of expecting that peace to come from outside themselves.

    For instance, my first husband was a very charming con man. I have met with him and tried to tell him what he did to me, the ways he betrayed and used me. I tried twice. He just conned me so that when I left those meetings I was thinking that maybe I had misunderstood the whole thing and days later I woke up and smacked my forehead! What was I thinking. The best peace I can have is to live well in the present and try not to accidentally run into him at a party of mutual friends. I’m not going to get closure from him, cause he’s still a con man.

  155. Ron, I have never once endorsed Buster’s idea of as you say “rounding them up”, not once, and if you can please show one instance where I have I’d appreciate it.

    All I have ever done is to say that Buster is a good man. While floating out ideas he obviously offended you. To say that I ever endorsed such actions is wrong. As a matter of fact I have very rigorously insisted that things should be done according to the law, not against it.

    I’m still waiting for some kind of example for how I am “oppressive” to anyone simply because I want laws enforced and children protected.

    The very worst thing I’ve ever heard you accuse me of being is Buster’s friend.

    Sorry Ron, but if I were tied up and held hostage someplace and had the chance to make a call and could choose between calling you [a lawyer] and Buster [a cop], I’d definitely be calling Buster.

    The funny thing is, Ron, the only thing I can think of that drives you so nuts about me is that I’m not a liberal. I remember, more than once, you coming to the defense of Duane on this board, claiming you were just sure he wasn’t a racist.

    The only thing I can think of that would make you do that…is that he was a liberal, just like you.

    You may not like that polygamy is abuse, Ron, but it is. You may not like that I treat it like an abuse instead of some airy fairy gray shade philosophical problem, but I’ll keep doing it.

    Again, Ron, exactly who have I ever abused by asking for laws to be enforced?

    All I have ever abused is your liberal sense that everything is gray.

    Please, Ron, if I have ever endorsed or put forward any plan that does anything but make sure existing laws are ENFORCED, please show it.

    Your issues with me are obviously more of a personal and philosophical nature than anything.

    More than once on this very board you defended Duane. I did not take that to mean that you agreed with him or his wacky notions.

  156. The Extradition of Fugitives Clause in the Constitution requires States, upon demand of another State, to deliver a fugitive from justice who has committed a “treason, felony or other crime” to the State from which the fugitive has fled. 18 U.S.C. § 3182 sets the process by which an executive of a state, district or territory of the United States must arrest and turn over a fugitive from another state, district or territory.

  157. Shoot. Anon at 11:05 is me,

    Darn virus. I’m posting from a different computer and haven’t set my profile.

  158. I found this article on preventing child abuse in polygamous communities. Thought that your readership might enjoy it.

    http://www.tejiendoredes.net/documentos/180_bountiful.pdf

  159. Alin: I have heard of people going to jail on fraud but I haven’t heard lately of anyone going to jail because they cannot pay a tax bill.

    …………………….

    You’ve never heard of Al Capone? How about John Gotti?

  160. ARTICLE 3

    Mandatory grounds for refusal

    Extradition shall not be granted in any of the following circumstances:

    1. If the offense for which extradition is requested is regarded as apolitical offense;
    2. If there are grounds to believe the request has been made to prosecute or punish a person on account of that person’s race, religion, nationality, ethnic origin, political opinions, sex or status, or that the person’s position may be prejudiced for any of these reasons;
    3. If the offense is an offense under military law and not also an offense under criminal law;
    4. If final judgment has been rendered against the person in the requested State in respect of the offense for which the persons’ extradition is requested;
    5. If the person whose extradition has been requested has, under the law of either Party, become immune from prosecution or punishment for any reason, including lapse of time or amnesty;
    6. If the person would be subjected to torture or cruel, inhuman treatment or degrading punishment or if that person has not or would not receive the minimum guarantees in criminal proceedings as contained in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, article 14.
    7. If the judgment of the requesting State has been rendered in absentia, the convicted person has not had sufficient notice of the trial nor opportunity to arrange for a defense and has not or will not have the opportunity to have the case retried.

  161. You’ve never heard of Al Capone? How about John Gotti?
    ===============================================
    Al Capone went to jail on income tax evasion not for being unable to pay the tax bill. John Gotti went to jail racketeering, 13 murders, obstruction of justice, conspiracy to commit murder, illegal gambling, extortion, tax evasion, and loansharking not for being unable to pay a tax bill.

  162. We had a nutjob try to blow up a plane last weekend,, the guy admitted he was an Alqueda operative. Now people are UP IN ARMS because airports want to use Body scanning equipment to see if anyone is carrying anything explosive,(like this guy was in his damn underwear) Is it profiling,, HELL NO, not when everyone has to do it! Is it an invasion of privacy, NO not when hundreds of lives are on the line in an airplane!
    FLDS aren’t profiled either becuase of their religious beliefs, they are targeted as a cult, who have NO regard for the law in Texas or any other state. The commit felonies, knowing they are against the law. I don’t see any grey areas when it comes to rights of everyone, including children. It is either black or white. If I get a ticket for speeding, but didn’t think I was speeding, I have the right to go to court and fight the ticket. Its called due process,, and FLDS are recieving due process just like anyone else.

  163. Ron – could you please tell us what you think the solution is to ensuring that the crimes and abuses in CC/Hildale can be 1. reported to an agency willing and able to investigate and 2. prosecuted when appropriate?

    Those of us near the creek are tired of waiting around while more people suffer.

  164. Boots

    Give it a rest will you. You maybe didn’t say “round em up” but your Buddy and ex BOD member Buster sure did. Besides you said being a polygamist was probable cause which means that it gives law enforcement free reign.

    Your first problem is that you start with a false premise. “Polygamy is abuse.” I represented a lady who was in a polygamist relationship which worked well for her and was clearly not abusive. Again, this is a classic example of your black and white thinking. Can polygamy be abusive? Absolutely. However, painting something as complex as human relationships with your black and white brush just makes it simple, don’t it sweetie?

    Look I’m sorry you were abused. However, that doesn’t now give you the right to violate people’s rights while you play out your psycho-drama and swagger around talking tough.

    Your zealotry is exactly the same zealotry that caused all those kids to be rounded up and ended up hurting the ones who really needed to be protected. You then have the gall to blame it on those soft, gray seeing liberals. No, Boots, it was the jack booted thugs that caused the problem. They were the ones who caused public outrage at the treatment of those soft spoken prairie dressed women. It happened in 1953 on the pages of Life magazine and it happened again in 2008 on the Oprah show.

    You and Buster just keep swaggering around beating your chests and talkin tough. In the meantime, if you really want to protect kids, then don’t violate the parent’s rights.

  165. FLDS aren’t profiled either becuase of their religious beliefs, they are targeted as a cult,
    ================================================
    If you want to take religion out and possible profiling DD I would suggest they be targeted as individual lawbreakers not as a group.

    I don’t see any grey areas when it comes to rights of everyone, including children.
    ————————————————-
    I agree. Including children who never been abused having their lives disrupted in order for the state to find a few lawbreakers.

  166. Appreciate the link, Susan.

    Just making a quick scan to start, I noticed this:

    “The criminal law sets a standard. It can not be the only remedy to deal with child sexual abuse. But if the criminal law standard is not there, it gives a green light to those who would sexually abuse children.”

    Absolutely and this is an issue I’m seeing in the Arizona statutes.

    To update some of the information in the paper, the Canadian Parliament raised the age to consent to sexual contact in Canada to 16 in spring 2008. I believe conferences such as the one held in Winnipeg were important in the process to get the law changed.

    Prior to the change, the age to consent to sexual contact in Canada was 14, thus there were a number of 15-year-old “brides” at Bountiful that did not break the law at the time.

    Back to reading with some deliberation…

  167. How many judges are mormon in Utah? We know the Ag is mormon. Why do they get slaps on the wrist, or probabtion for something as henious as assulating little girls! Why do they need a safety net? Instead they should be prosecuting those who commit these crimes.

  168. We don’t have debtor’s prisons. It’s hard enough to jail ’em for fraud because of the expense/burden of proof.

  169. Wow! Ron. Usually I find some small points of agreement with you but I found pretty much absolute agreement with you on your latest post.

  170. Susan the MD,

    Thanks for the link. I agree that Canada should raise the age of consent but disagree with providing parents a means of “endorsing” a polygamous union, which would give the union some legal validity.

    Regardless, the round table did a good job of acknowledging that girl children are at a greater risk of sexual abuse within polygamy.

    Nothing new, really, the UN has known it for years.

  171. You’ve never heard of Al Capone? How about John Gotti?
    ===============================================
    Al Capone went to jail on income tax evasion not for being unable to pay the tax bill. John Gotti went to jail racketeering, 13 murders, obstruction of justice, conspiracy to commit murder, illegal gambling, extortion, tax evasion, and loansharking not for being unable to pay a tax bill

    …………..

    Alin, what the heck is a “tax bill?” I own a business, and I’ve never gotten a “bill.” They don’t tell me what I owe, I tell them.

    You get income. You owe a portion of it to the IRS. So you HAVE the money. If you spend the government’s portion on something else, well then, you’ve screwed up. This happens to individuals and small businesses due to mismanagement and yes, you are correct, most people don’t go to jail for it.

    But if you get your income in cash and fail to report it to the IRS, that’s fraud. If you pay your employees in cash, and fail to withold and report their taxes, that is fraud. If you DO withhold employee taxes and SSI, then fail to turn over the money to the gov’ment, that is very bad fraud.

    We already know that 1) the FLDS does not feel it has to obey the laws of the land and 2) they like to move around large amounts of cash and 3) Warren says “answer them nothing” therefore, it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if they have evaded paying income taxes.

  172. But if you get your income in cash and fail to report it to the IRS, that’s fraud. If you pay your employees in cash, and fail to withold and report their taxes, that is fraud. If you DO withhold employee taxes and SSI, then fail to turn over the money to the gov’ment, that is very bad fraud.
    =======================================
    /shrug if you know anyone doing so by name, then report them.

  173. nearthecreek

    The problem is Utah and Arizona is a lack of will by those in power. I think the only thing that would help solve the Utah/AZ situation is a federal task force. It would probably be a good time to again push that idea since I’ll bet the Obama justice department would be much more amenable to it than the Bush justice department was.

  174. Ron, it seemed no one knew exactly how many people lived on the ranch. Especially the number of children. Bishop Merrill gave a number of a 150 people total, which we now know that was a lie.
    Why? Because as in Warren’s dictations people and children were being brought to the ranch in the middle of the night.
    Do I think every child at that ranch was abused, No, I don’t. But I do believe there is possibilty they will be, and certainly when they reach menses. They are all taught the same way. When a 12yr old child (girl) tells Social Services that being married at 12yrs old is fine, and its what they believe, their is something terribly wrong.

  175. nearthecreek,

    I have a suggestion for those who live in Arizona.

    Apply pressure to get the statutes strengthened.

    Successful prosecutions with lame penalty prospects won’t do any good in the long run.

    Who knows if the bite in the Texas statutes will have any long-term effects, but at least those convicted are taken out of action for more than a few months (or not at all).

    Sorry to sound like I’m repeating myself, but until the laws in Arizona change the only likely result is the status quo and more frustration.

  176. Boots,
    I do not believe in legalization of polygamy, nor do I believe in decriminalization.
    I thought that the readership might be interested, but not in agreement with decriminalization.
    Also found this paper on polygamy related abuse and law enforcement in Utah, thought your readership would enjoy it.

    http://www.hinckley.utah.edu/publications/journal/2005journal.pdf#page=37

  177. Alinsuara since you don’t seem to understand employee withholding, let me fill you in.
    Every month, you have to send in the money deducted from your employess paychecks to IRS. If you don’t the IRS sends you a reminder your Employee withholdings have not been paid.
    IRS has lien after lien against LLC corp held by FLDS for NOT sending employee withholding to them.
    I don’t know why IRS hasn’t done more!! I would like to know! Because for 30yrs we sent our employee withholdings to IRS on time, because they can freeze your bank account, etc.
    But here we have another problem,,, FLDS don’t have bank accounts. They use money orders, or cash. They do work for “outsiders” take the check and cash it. The problem with that is, FLDS didn’t think it could be traced, and IRS has a way of doing that.

  178. No Ron, I won’t give it a rest. I’ll keep working.

    You have failed to point out where I have endorsed illegal action. You simply want to paint me as you see me in your own mind.

    It doesn’t surprise me that you had a polygamist client, or that you would defend the practice.

    “No, Boots, it was the jack booted thugs that caused the problem. They were the ones who caused public outrage at the treatment of those soft spoken prairie dressed women.”

    And calling the Texas Rangers “Jackbooted thugs” sure clears things up for me where you are concerned.

    That’s the big difference between us. I see the Rangers as heroes and you can’t resist calling them names associated with concepts like “gestapo and Nazi”.

    Thanks for clearing that up.

  179. nearthecreek, my suggestion would be to put pressure on Terry Goddard the Arizona AG.

    I would also like to see those women who are abused, come forward and be willing to testify against the men who abused them. One or two women won’t change anything, but if there are many,, together they can get things done.

  180. Oh ron,, lol Soft spoken women in prairie dresses!! LOL NOT!
    Just as in FLDS, you lose your husband, you have no chance of celestial heaven, you lose your children, the same thing occurs.
    As Carolyn wrote in her book,, biological mother aren’t supposed to bond with their children! They are supposed to allow any other woman or sister wife to feed them, take care of them etc.
    She says, when she left with her children, it was difficult, because she had to learn to bond with her children, something she had never been allowed to do… You see all children belong to the Prophet, NOT the mothers or fathers.

  181. DD

    Yeah, you and I both know it; however, that’s the way the drama ended up playing out. They were able to paint themselves that way because of CPS overreaching.

  182. They use money orders, or cash. They do work for “outsiders” take the check and cash it. The problem with that is, FLDS didn’t think it could be traced, and IRS has a way of doing that.

    …………………………..

    In order for the “outsiders” to claim their payments to FLDS as business expenes, they must list them on their returns. I don’t see why they wouldn’t do that, unless the FLDS is giving them deep discounts.

    It’s impossible for so many entities to all be in collusion to avoid taxes, which is why tax evasion is a good way to take down criminals who are adept at hiding their other crimes.

  183. Ron, maybe had I never heard of FLDS, it would of played out that way for me to. But I had heard of them in 2005. Knew they had bought land and even saw the temple being built.
    What I noticed on all the interviews with the mothers immediately after going to to San Angelo, was very telling to me.
    Ive rewatched the footage and picutres , and wondered if anyone else noticed, their were NO TEARS!!! Oh they sounded disraught… but NOT a tear!
    Some of the children cried,,, but even on the buses, where you could see through the windows,, NO TEARS!
    The video footings of LE inside the houses, where evidence was being taken,,, and women in the rooms,, NO TEARS!
    The video of Merrianne being taken to CPS office,, she was visibly upset and crying, but her Mother , NOT a TEAR!

    You may say, well they are stoic women,, and to that I anwser, Bull crap!! If anyone was taking my child,, I would be hysterical, crying,, fighting who ever it was trying to take my child.

  184. Boots

    No, the Rangers did a good job. It was CPS that were the jack booted thugs thinking it was a good idea to remove kids that they had no evidence were at risk. Thanks to that wonderful idea they ended up endangering those that were MOST at risk. And guess what Boots? Even conservative family law judges thought they were jack booted thugs.

    But hey, they were tough. They walked in, kicked a$$, and took names! NOT. Colossal fail.

    OK – here’s what you said in Discussion #20:

    Betty, nope but being a polygamist is probable cause.

    Probable cause of what? So every FLDS member is subject to arrest and search? How about publicly clarifying that statement like how you crawfished and distanced yourself from Buster once you realized how stupid what he said was.

    It doesn’t surprise me that you had a polygamist client, or that you would defend the practice.

    Did I defend the practice? I just showed your highly flawed logic in the blanket black and white statement of “polygamy is abuse.” I might buy into the statement that “religiously mandated polygyny is abuse” but when you start out with a failed premise its only natural that your positions go downhill from there.

  185. DD

    When the whole thing blew up in Texas, my BS radar went off when I saw the FLDS women. I went and picked up Singular’s book. I started commenting to counteract all the ACLU types who were so outraged at CPS that they failed to see that this was not some misunderstood little house on the prairie religion.

    It’s funny – one of the early folks was a lawyer from Elgin Texas who actually had been affiliated with the Texas ACLU. I think Blues and I convinced him that this not a case of the evil government picking on some poor mistreated group.

  186. Alinsuara since you don’t seem to understand employee withholding, let me fill you in.
    Every month, you have to send in the money deducted from your employess paychecks to IRS. If you don’t the IRS sends you a reminder your Employee withholdings have not been paid.
    IRS has lien after lien against LLC corp held by FLDS for NOT sending employee withholding to them.
    ====================================================
    The argument is that they was paying employees in cash not leaving a paper trail. OK, now that you established that they was paying by check most definitely leaving a paper trail the argument was switched that they was not sending in both employers and employee’s withholdings. IRS is completely within their rights to put liens on the individual businesses in order to recover the debts. I haven’t argued otherwise. IRS then has the task of sorting out and proving whether or not the individual deliberately and fraudulently cheated the government or if the business simply overextended themselves then went under due to economic hardship.

  187. Some of us are still outraged Ron. I gave CPS the benefit of the doubt until I started catching them in lies. That and the normal procedure of investigate then remove was reversed.

  188. Polygamy is a crime, Ron, because it is abusive to the equal rights of women.

    I’ve talked to plenty of regular CPS folks involved with the children and I don’t see them as “jack booted thugs” either.
    I hope some folks here take time to review the dissenting opinions written by members of the Texas Supreme Court, who thought CPS had taken the correct action.

    No matter who you are calling “Jack booted, gestapo or Nazi like” here, the point is you just can’t resist doing it.

    I have never distanced myself from Buster Johnson, only some of his comments. I am very proud to call him my friend.

    As I have pointed out before, there were some very fine people in this country who owned slaves at one time. That didn’t make it right. Slavery, no matter how well treated the salves may be, or how well it might have worked out for some individuals, was still inherently abusive.

    The same is true of polygamy. You want me to narrow down my definition to “religious polygamy”? That’s a joke, because religion is always used to justify polygamy. That’s like telling me to narrow my definition of cars to only vehicles that have wheels.

    Religion is always the wheels that make things go round for the polygamy vehicle.

    I think you would be very hard pressed to find polygamy being practiced by any women who were non-religious.

    No, Ron, from what I saw in the court room in Eldorado earlier this month, my arguments are definitely not going downhill. Instead, they were very effectively used in the court room to make sure an abuser never gets the chance to do it again.

    They seem to be on very solid ground and now I can see why your goat is so got.

    That Texas jury “got it”.

  189. Bull Shit!!! Alinusara

  190. Alinusara, you said many months back, any man that assaulted an underage girl should be convicted, you didn’t beleive that.

    Yet, every post after you say that, you are blaming any conviction on delusions you have of why they were convicted.
    The only ones to blame were FLDS, in continuing the lifestye of marrying underage girls, even AFTER they were told the law had changed.
    Do you honestly think its NOT still going on in FLDS?? All they have to do is transport some little girl out of state and marry them off in a motel room, just like Jeffs did in the past.. Jeffs has appointed MEN to run the compounds in other states, and yes, he has visitors in his jail. He just gives orders from there, instead of doing it himself.

  191. The operate in Nevada, Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, South Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming.. Take your pick Alinusara!

  192. Really? I’m not outraged?

  193. Boots

    News flash. They’re throwing these guys in jail for having sex with minors. So, far they haven’t thrown anyone in jail for being a polygamist.

    News flash #2. There are loads of people living polyamorous lifestyles. Heck, they even say that if gays can be married then they should be able to be multiple married. I’ve gotten into arguments with them since there is no way to “recognize” their arrangement without opening the door to folks like the FLDS.

    The statement “polygamy is abuse” is a blanket black and white statement that makes about as much sense as saying “monogamy is abuse” or “feeding chocolate to kids is abuse.” All can be true but are not ultimate statements of truth.

    Like I said. Just keep beating your chest, patting yourself on the back, and talkin tough. However, please stay far away from any of my cases with abused kids. Yours is the kind of help they don’t need.

  194. Alinusara, you said many months back, any man that assaulted an underage girl should be convicted, you didn’t beleive that.
    =======================================================
    Nuh uh! I specifically said if they can get convictions without violating the rights of the suspected victims then go for it.

    Do you honestly think its NOT still going on in FLDS??
    ======================================================
    I honestly don’t know one way or another much like I don’t know if it’s going on in your house. I’m not going to violate your 4th amendment rights to find out.

  195. Betty, nope but being a polygamist is probable cause.

    Still haven’t cleared that one up. Yes, bigamy is a crime; however, just saying that you believe in polygamy is not. Want to issue a formal clarification? If that’s the official position of AAAP, then it’s more than a little scary.

  196. Good Afternoon,
    With Love & Compassion to All :
    If I may turn the conversation to a more academic note :
    Here is a review article which contains within it information on the psychosocial effects of polygamy on women and girls.

  197. Sorry here is the link : http://www.childtrafficking.com/Docs/pshycho_social_impact_study_070402.pdf

  198. The 4th amendment doesn’t hold up to Probable Cause warrant Alinusara. Try again.

  199. I think that there is a huge difference between open ended polyamory and religion based polygyny. IMHO, to tell a woman that she does not deserve/cannot expect to have an exclusive sexual relationship because God Said So, but her husband can expect four exclusive sexual relationships is abusive in it’s very nature. To force them to live together and witness the sharing of affection and resources is cruel beyond belief. To me, it’s hideous and needs to be stamped out, no question. But what tool do we use to stamp it out?

    I am more and more convinced that legal prosecution of polygamy will not work and may actually cause more harm than good. However, I think the law should come down like a ton of bricks on the known evils of polygyny. And I think the real solution has to be a combination of forces – we should focus on things that open the communities up, such as mandatory education laws that are actually enforced. Not allowing a whole town to be run by one religion without outside LE and other checks and balances. I think society should expect abuse and look for it there.

    Betty

  200. exactly Betty!

  201. Betty

    Well said – you closet liberal you 🙂

  202. Im in no way liberal, im very old fashioned, I don’t think people should have sex till marriage, or live together and not get married… If your not married and just living together and come to my house, you sleep in separate rooms,, lol sorry just the way i am.

  203. I know I opened myself up to that comment, lOL

  204. DD

    No, I applaud you for realizing that complex problems usually don’t have simple solutions.

  205. Hey Ron how would you liked to have seen it done? Not sure where you were with the background of the story prior to the RESCUE but keep in mind these things.
    1. Warren is still on the run supposedly with armed body guards.
    2. This group has connections and the monies to gain access to other countries both by air and land
    3.Warrens famous drawled out tapes concerning blood atonement and the many other freakish things that have come out during this story.(Tapes have been available long before the RESCUE)
    including reach for the sky with your packed bags for the trip story from his father (and reported and documented faithful that decided to go early by either jumping off buildings with kids in hand or flying over cliffs with vechiles)
    4.Barlow wasn’t on any sex registry ( I know for a fact one of those things I keep harping about but still check daily)
    5. At that time there was talk about a furnace
    6.There were reports that they were bring gun parts this way and that way over the Canadian border.
    7. They could move huge buildings in the night without anyone knowing or seeing anything
    8. Reported and since proven that Warren Jeffs had people helping him that should have been enforcing the law
    If I’ve left anything out, I’ve got all and the links to back it all up.

    Your a RESCUE worker- you approach the “site” and you finally get behind the tall locked fences. You are expecting to go to one maybe two homes to find Sarah. None of the homes are marked and everyone you are interviewing are getting caught in some lies. Instead of maybe 50 kids you see over 300-400
    It is YOUR job to make sure that the kids are safe.
    Tell me Ron what would you do?

  206. “Betty, nope but being a polygamist is probable cause.”

    I say this without any shame, Ron, because we all know that if someone believes one law doesn’t apply to them, chances are they think many of them don’t apply.

    Someone is driving down the road with a headlight out. An officer pulls them over for the violation and then discovers open alcohol containers and marijuana roaches in the ash tray. What started out as a traffic violation moves on to other charges.

    I am a woman with 10 children living in Colorado City Arizona, collecting food stamps and medical welfare, who claims I don’t know who on earth the father of my children could possibly be…

    Like having a headlight out, I should be pulled over and investigated to see if there may be any more laws I’m violating.

    But since Utah and Arizona have decided to ignore the law on broken headlamps these jerks will just keep driving our roads and breaking more laws.

    The only thing that I’ve ever said was simple here, Ron, is the LAW.

    While you and your lawyer buddies spend your time yammering on about the gray shades and complexities of the law, the men and women who strap on a gun and badge every day will continue to go out there and risk their lives to enforce them once they are in black and white.

    What is simple here is enforcement of the law.

    Practicing polygamy is against the law. People men or women who do it should be prosecuted for it. Period. End of story.

    I love Willie Nelson. I think he is a wonderful human being and feel sorry for him every time he gets busted for pot. But just because he’s a wonderful human being doesn’t make him, or anyone else above the law.

    You’re the one who is crawfishing, darlin’.

    I sure hope your soft-spoken prairie dress clad client doesn’t have more than a headlight out, because if she does, she belongs in a Texas prison, not out actively creating innocent new sex abuse victims for the FLDS leadership to consume.

  207. imo Texas did what they needed to do and they did it accordingly.
    Real easy to sit back and say what should have been done when the music stops.
    They went in to find a girl named Sarah.
    Once in and accessing the situation as they (those that were doing their job) saw it thought it in the best interest to take all the children. I think they did the right thing. I think it is too bad that they were told to return some of the children.

    If someone from Utah would have done this 20 years ago some of those kids that were/are staying out at Dan Fischers place wouldn’t be going thru the things that they did.
    Parley Jeffs Dutson wouldn’t be sitting in jail.
    Allan Keate might not be in prison today (if he is) if someone would have acted back then.
    Raymond Jessop might not be sitting in jail today (if he is) if someone would have done their job back then.
    The victim list would not have grown.
    Sitting back doing the phoo phoo wave only allows more victims.
    Standing up and saying that people are going to enforce the laws gives them the choice of stopping or those that continue know the law is coming for them. And in my book there is nothing wrong with that picture.

  208. A question for you, Walton.

    If you are not sure that Raymond Jessop and Allen Keate are sitting in jail, where do you think they are?

  209. I think they are doing errands for those that have asked.

  210. Geez Boots

    You really are a psycho case. My “polygamist” client was not FLDS. She certainly does not belong in prison. She was a quite productive, very normal person who was the second wife of a Muslim man. Was her presence abusive to wife #1? I have no idea. All I know is that her relationship worked for her. She had no qualms about it and said it was good for her and her kids.

    I say this without any shame, Ron, because we all know that if someone believes one law doesn’t apply to them, chances are they think many of them don’t apply.

    Geez, Boots, I speed all the time. Guess they should lock me up and throw away the key, huh?

    Like having a headlight out, I should be pulled over and investigated to see if there may be any more laws I’m violating.

    But since Utah and Arizona have decided to ignore the law on broken headlamps these jerks will just keep driving our roads and breaking more laws.

    Round up those headlight violators!! Lock em up. Waterboard those bastards!!! Those bastards are probably going to knock over a bank next!!!

    The only thing that I’ve ever said was simple here, Ron, is the LAW.

    While you and your lawyer buddies spend your time yammering on about the gray shades and complexities of the law, the men and women who strap on a gun and badge every day will continue to go out there and risk their lives to enforce them once they are in black and white.

    What is simple here is enforcement of the law.

    Well, sweetie, I suppose in your abuse victim world of black and white it’s all quite that simple. News flash. It’s not that simple. Yee haw, time to go water board some more folks with no headlights.

    Hey Boots – ever seen “The Ed Show” on MSNBC (yep, that liberal station that all you Foxs news loving folks hate.) They have a section called “Psycho Talk.” You’d fit in quite well on that segment.

    I’d call everything you’ve been saying lately “Psycho Talk.”

  211. If Doran or Deputy George said that these guys were in their jail I would believe it.

    Seems to me that it would be a safety issues having them listed being in one jail and they aren’t there. What if the building collapsed or a fire and they had to go by records of who is where. Everyone would be in a hurt bag trying to scramble finding out who is sleeping in which jail. Yes?

  212. Well its for sure when you check case lookup,, Flds need to learn how to drive,, ive never seen so many traffic tickets! Some of the people have 10 or 12 traffic tickets,, most for speeding,, lol
    Some were arrested for CR, criminal acts, but when you look up their cases, they mostly all had the same judge, and it took over 4 yrs for some of them to finally be settled.. Good old Judge Kaluli… must get paid very well!

  213. Like my wise old grandpa used to say,, “Money talks, Bullshit walks?

  214. Walton, Raymond Jessop has been transferred already to San Angelo jail. It happened a couple of weeks ago.. Keate, will probably been transferred this next week.

  215. Personally, I beleive there was a sarah, I also think she was discovered calling the shelter and taken off the ranch a couple of days before the raid.
    Remember, these people are mobile, and whose to say the girl’s cell phone number wasn’t from out of state?

    And how do we know that Rosita Swinton who lived in Colorado, where FLDS has a compound, didn’t know about this sarah? Maybe sarah called her, and ask her to call the shelter? There are many unaswered questions.

  216. deputydog are you saying that Allan Keate is in Dorans jail in Eldorado?
    And Raymond Jessop is staying at the San Angelo jail ever since the Keate hearing?

    How do you know that? Because of the search info on line? Show me ok? please

  217. Walton, Jessop was moved to Tom Green (San Angelo) about 4 days after his conviction to the jail. On the 7th he will be in Judge Walthers courtroom for his appeal hearing.
    As far as Ive heard Keate is still in the jail at El Dorado.

  218. Prisoners wait in county jails till TDJC has room to transport them to a prison. Prisons are pretty overcrowded in Texas right now.

  219. Well I can say that there was no way of knowing if Dale Barlow was on that ranch. He wasn’t on the registry and he called in to his probation officer by cell.

  220. Walton

    I understand the way CPS thinks. They knew something was not right at the Ranch. They went in with a plan to remove teenage girls. If they’d stuck to that plan, probably no teenage girl would be at the ranch now.

    I actually have defended CPS’ actions in this case. They were correct in their suspicion that something was not right.

    However, right or wrong, CPS has this mindset that if someone at a particular location likes teenage girls that all the children should be removed. I can’t tell you how many times this makes a mess. It gives awful parents arguing points they shouldn’t have.

    I can “Monday morning” quarterback til the cows come home. They did what they did. It was a serious mistake. I understand why they did it.

    Yeah, I can say they just should have removed the teenage girls. However, if I were a CPS administrator would I have made the call to remove all the kids? Maybe.

    Child abuse is not simple. An abused kid still loves their parent, no matter how worthless. However, when you have infants and toddlers who are clean, well fed, with no apparent signs of abuse, you shouldn’t just remove them from their parents until you’ve conducted a full investigation.

    Texas LE has done a very good job. The Rangers were thorough and professional. The followed the law getting warrants where necessary and basically have laid a groundwork to prosecute any number of crimes.

    CPS acted the way I’d expect them to act. However, in the end, they looked like “jack booted thugs.”

  221. Deleted – banned user – ADMIN

  222. Personally, I beleive there was a sarah, I also think she was discovered calling the shelter and taken off the ranch a couple of days before the raid.

    Well, it certainly could be. I just think it’s far more likely that it was Rozita would was acting on some abuse scenario from her childhood.

    In the end, we’ll never know. Not to mention that it doesn’t really matter.

  223. Schleicher County SO

    325-853-2737

  224. Duane – you really need to stop coming on here and posting anonymous comments.

  225. Howdy, duane.

  226. Raymonds jail ID number is 345493

  227. Walton, trust me both Jessop and keate are in jail.

    Ron, my problem was someone higher up than just local CPS officals pulled the plug to soon… I believe there are children who are being still abused at that ranch. But because CPS workers were pulled off and told to stop, we will never know.

  228. Man, the Schleicher county jail must be really small. The usual procedure is that the convicting county keeps the prisoners until they’re transferred to TDC. Apparently Schleicher county has to warehouse their prisoners in Tom Green county.

  229. Were some of the children traumatized, im sure they were, do I think CPS did all the traumatizing, no, i think much of it came from the mothers from the ranch. From all reports I could find, once the children were in Shelters, they adapted very well. they were all sent back to mothers shortly after, and Im not sure the SCOT did the right thing.

  230. DD

    I agree. The decision came from higher up the CPS chain. They were caught in a major PR problem. They cut their losses and ran. It really is a shame. I have no doubt there are at risk children at the ranch.

  231. Ron thanks for not calling me names. I was waiting. I was going to say sometimes I get all fired up about this but actually I get fired up all the time about this.
    Where does one start and stop when going into a setting where the adults are less than truthful with who they are and are not. The kids themselves couldn’t answer basic questions such as birthdays who their parents were or were not.
    Without birth certificates for some how in the heck could a case worker process anything in that situation without taking all the kids.
    If someone came to my house when my kids were small and if I had to a copy of the birth certificate was in my file box along with the hospital bills.
    So many people say that Polygamy is about consenting adults. It is rarely ever just about consenting adults. The adults make a huge mess and the kids are the ones that have to pay for it in every way.
    No one made this mess except for those that broke the 1st law.After that it was breaking laws 2, 3, 4 and more.

  232. DD

    Children are highly adaptable and *mostly* aren’t traumatized by the removal. Some of it depends on the kid.

    However, foster care is a very, very mixed bag. I’m highly suspicious of foster parents. There are some great ones, but there are also some extremely bad ones.

  233. Walton

    I wouldn’t call you names. I have some serious disagreements with Boots but I don’t think I’ve descended into the “liar liar pants on fire” stage yet.

  234. Walton

    Lying is not a grounds to terminate someone’s parental rights. People lie all the time. Some lies are innocuous and some are evil.

    However, the secret to dealing with liars is to give them rope. Don’t confront them. Eventually, if you give them enough rope, they will hang themselves.

  235. I agree there are bad foster parents, just like there are bad biological parents, and in situtaions if possible put the child with a relative..
    CPS tried that with Merrianne,,, but most everyone lived in Utah or Arizona. Some hadn’t seen her at all in 5 or 6 years, some were widowed and to old to take in a 12yr old.
    Eventually, she was taken to foster care, but given to a relative that supposedly lives a few miles from the ranch. Since her mother died recently, im wondering if Naomi Carlise will have permanantly custody of Merrianne.

  236. Ron

    I can see Boots and Busters frustration.

    Just imagine this group in your neighborhood breaking all kinds of imaginable laws, child molesting, child labor, tax evasion, bigamy, etc, and government handing them welfare in one hand and contracts in another. Then when there is abuse, the victims call 911, and it goes right to the cop who reports to Warren Jeffs.

    Its a fairyland thats enabled by government agencies, and no one in UT or AZ has had much stomach to end it in the past.

    Thankfully Texas has, and the gravy train the FLDS rode in on is gonna stop slow but sure.

  237. Well,
    This was certainly a lively day

  238. walton, i just called a friend of mine and he said that raymond is going to stay in angelo at least until the hearing on jan 7 so they wouldn’t have to go get him somewhere. after that he’s good to be moved to his tdc holding facility for processing. he said that keate was still in eldorado.

    ron, the schleicher county jail is really small, so about a week after his trial, raymond was moved to angelo to await transportation to his next location. i think the tdc chain gang wagon likes for the smaller counties to move the inmates to larger counties to make for less pickups.

  239. Betty: I am more and more convinced that legal prosecution of polygamy will not work and may actually cause more harm than good. However, I think the law should come down like a ton of bricks on the known evils of polygyny. And I think the real solution has to be a combination of forces – we should focus on things that open the communities up, such as mandatory education laws that are actually enforced. Not allowing a whole town to be run by one religion without outside LE and other checks and balances.

    ……………………………………..

    Well said.

  240. Personally, I beleive there was a sarah, I also think she was discovered calling the shelter and taken off the ranch a couple of days before the raid.
    Remember, these people are mobile, and whose to say the girl’s cell phone number wasn’t from out of state?

    And how do we know that Rosita Swinton who lived in Colorado, where FLDS has a compound, didn’t know about this sarah? Maybe sarah called her, and ask her to call the shelter? There are many unaswered questions.

    ……………………..

    Well, SOMEbody called and said children were being sexually abused, and by golly they were right.

  241. Betty, nope but being a polygamist is probable cause

    Boots – you never gave me a straight answer. Should anyone who is a member of the FLDS church be arrested by LE? They are, after all, “polygamist” whether they’re practicing or not. Should their homes and possessions be subject to search?

    I ask this because you are the executive director of a non-profit that solicits donations. Is this the official position of AAAP? I think everyone who might consider donating to your organization should understand this.

  242. Ron: Child abuse is not simple. An abused kid still loves their parent, no matter how worthless. However, when you have infants and toddlers who are clean, well fed, with no apparent signs of abuse, you shouldn’t just remove them from their parents until you’ve conducted a full investigation.

    …………………………..

    Not necessarily, or in all cases. In a recent Seattle area case, one child, a daughter, was being abused and tortured, while the other child, a son was not. When the abuse was discovered, both children were removed immediately, and the parents lost custody of both children, even though only one of them was being abused.

    It’s a tightrope walk, that’s for sure.

  243. Whoa!! Hold on Ron,,, did you say this to Bill Medvecky or Hugh McBryde?
    Medvecky takes donations and makes a mockery of any justice system! And half what he says, is coming out his ass.
    He talks about how awful Social Services is, how awful foster parents are, and this coming from a Convicted Felon! He isn’t interested in helping children but lining his pockets to pay his bills.. hes a fraud!
    At least, Boots is passionate about what she is doing, and she cares deeply about children.

  244. ProudTexan- thank you. And tell your friend thank you. I was going to call Dorans office but I don’t want him to think I am some kind of nut.
    You guys here know I am only a little nuts. 🙂 j/k I really am not a nut. I just want to see this craziness end.
    Wouldn’t it be cool if the next time we opened a paper we saw pictures of the kids playing in the snow or taking a tour at the local library or the local bakery having a soda or standing in line at a local theater?
    Heck they could hook up Bessie the cow and pull a sled of kids around the local park.
    Anyway thanks to all of you who are so very patient with me.

  245. Ron,

    Betty, nope but being a polygamist is probable cause

    Boots – you never gave me a straight answer.

    Ron, I’ve given a remarkably straight answer, over and over. Practicing polygamy is already a crime. If someone is not practicing polygamy they shouldn’t have to be worried about being prosecuted for it. I’m certainly not a proponent of prosecuting anyone for crimes they have not committed.

    Ron, in the past I have been confused by your prevaricating behavior, but no more. Now that I understand you are a criminal defense attorney, who obviously has or had a polygamist client, it’s all pretty dang CLEAR. Of course you would have a deeply vested interest in smearing the AAAP or its executive director, of course you would!

    You’re right about one thing, I’m a pretty law and order, black and white kinda gal.

    Walton was worried about name calling from you today, because you’ve already done it, to me. “Psycho talk” ring any bells?

    I’ve gotten several emails over the past couple of days asking what the heck is wrong with YOU.

    Over this past two days I have actually started to wonder if Duane wasn’t YOUR sockpuppet all along.

    You want to protect your clients.

    Now, we know.

  246. Boots,

    I’m not sure that you can tell from the street if a house contains polygamists to the satisfaction of a court. I feel pretty much the same emotions that you do, but I also understand Ron’s pragmatism. There’s a rule book, it’s there to protect all of us, and we need to respect it. I also agree with you that they are not following the rule book in parts of Arizona and Utah.

  247. Shoot. 6:26 was me. Betty. I’m still repairing my computer.

  248. Actually Boots, I think Ron is a Family Attorney, I could be mistaken?
    Look, Im pretty much a black and white thinker myself.. Guess the way I was raised stuck to me. My dad used to tell us, there is no grey lies, Its either the truth or its a lie. He was very literal about stuff like that. A lie is Lie is a Lie! period.
    FLDS really shouldn’t have been surprised that sooner or later, their lies and bad deeds were going to catch up with them. Warren’s big idea was move the Elite to another state, start over!
    Ive heard many say, how come they didn’t investigate Texas before they came. Well the way I see it, at the time they decided to move here, it wasn’t any big damn revelation, it was the fact, you could marry a child at the age of 14. Not many people did that however, because you had to have parental permission and a Judge court order to really do that legally.
    But then since when is FLDS legal with anything? Right?
    I don’t think Ron is a bad person,, but he thinks like (and no offense ron) a man and an attorney. Its very rare in a males life that they are sexually assaulted by an OLD man or married to an Old man. Its rare that a man is paid LESS for the same job a woman does.
    I was never a ‘bra burner’ but I have always been very avid about the fact women have rights, and so do children. Polygamy degrades a woman or a child is my view for sevreal reasons. 1. The woman in a polygamist relationship isn’t legally married, nor are her children legal, they are basically bastards, if you get my drift?
    Having multiple women as wives, makes those women concubines, less than individuals, not worthy of having a husband just for herself.
    That is for women who aren’t in any religion. When you get to religious polygamy, its worse! Children many times end up with fictional numbers of fathers, if the biological father is kicked out. Some children are to young when this happens, and therefore never even know who their real father is.
    Again, all this amounts to abuse, loss of dignity for a woman or child, loss of self esteem, and self worth.

  249. And the 4th amendment only protects you from illegal search and seizure. If Law officals have probable cause and get a warrant, they can search and seize documents, computers, papers from your house. And if Law enforcement have probable cause that criminal activity is going on in a place, whether it be a bar, a house, or a ranch, and get a search warrant, they can search, and take materials and paperwork, and computers, cell phones, documents from your home.
    LE had a search warrant legally to search the entire ranch, including the temple and temple annex.

  250. Perhaps people are making the assumption that
    FLDS member = polygamist
    therefore since polygamy is illegal throughout the US all one needs for probable cause to arrest for polygamy is knowledge that someone is a member of the FLDS.

    If that is what some commenters are suggesting then Ron is correct in stating that it is false reasoning. You simply can not assume that FLDS=polygamist=probable cause to arrest and/or investigate for felony.

    doesn’t make those who see that distinction an evil criminal lawyer out to make a buck.

    By the way it really really irks me that people call Duane liberal… ain’t no way you can call him a liberal …. he is more like a libertarian.
    Libertarian does not equal liberal

    As a card carrying liberal I have no common ground with Duane

  251. Bwah ha ha – yes I am an evil criminal lawyer. We all know that everyone who is arrested must be guilty of something, right?

    And yes, little did anyone realize that all this time Duane was nothing more than my sock puppet. We all know those liberals are evil and not to be trusted.

    No, actually DD has it right. I’m a family law attorney, practice a whole lot of CPS work and rarely step into the criminal courtroom.

    And, no, I don’t feel the need to smear AAAP or its executive director. She does a good enough job of proving the sort of reactionary over the top organization it is.

    Come on everyone – grab a pitch fork – first we round up the folks with no headlights and then ON to ALL THOSE POLYGAMIST. They must be guilty of something. Yee haw! Kick a$$ and take names folks!

  252. hellogoodbye, I didn’t say every polygamist abuses children or every polygamist should be arrested or have their house searched.
    I said if criminal activity is going on in a GROUP whether it be polygamist, or drug dealers,and if LE have probable cause, they have a right to file for a search warrant, and if they get one, search the premises.

  253. LE had probable cause at YFZ ranch, they had a call to a womans shelter that abuse was taking place.

    However, Ive heard of less than that for a search warrant in drug cases to get a warrant to search.

  254. sexual preditors who use computers to find little girls in the internet are caught by police monitering websites and myspace, and yes they can go in that persons house and arrest and confiscate their computer.

  255. Actually, I want to take time to call out all you folks who say, “I think Buster is a nice guy.” Honestly, what evidence do you have other than his words?

    I’m sorry folks – his words were not nice. I don’t give a rats back side how frustrated he feels, you don’t say folks should just be allowed to “die out.” That’s nothing more than hateful bigoted talk that has no place in civilized society. “Yeah, you can’t change those people (insert not so favorite group here – hispanics, black, jews…) they’re just too hard corre and should be allowed to die out.”

    Sorry folks, not nice. Even worse from someone who apparently is headed to some state office in Arizona.

    Shame on Buster. Anyone who makes excuses is nothing more than an apologist for a bigot in my book.

  256. Thanks, Ron,

    Now there’s some “psycho talk” for ya.

    Last time I checked, nobody much considered asking law enforcement to actually “enforce laws” was reactionary.

    Your “soft spoken” client [read: raised like veal to be submissive and keep sweet] looked at you and you decided the big bad CPS people must have it all wrong…there couldn’t possibly be any danger in allowing little girls to be raised in seclusion to totally submit to men in power…

    Whatever, Ron. I’ll let people read over your words today and decide for themselves who the real reactionary is here.

    See? Again your post looks weirdly familiar….

  257. I said if criminal activity is going on in a GROUP whether it be polygamist, or drug dealers,and if LE have probable cause, they have a right to file for a search warrant, and if they get one, search the premises.

    DD – you cannot use guilt by association. Following your reasoning any Catholic priest found near a child should be immediately interrogated.

  258. Hey, when you guys, Boots, Ron in Houston and deputydog1, all get together and decide to have a picnic/reunion somewhere (preferably in Texas), can I come? Let’s invite everybody…Susan the MD, Walton, texastwist, Betty, Stamp, Proud Texan, near the creek and Anon E Mouse. And don’t forget GFNY…what happened to her anyway? We should ask Alinusara and duane just for kicks. let’s make it potluck. God knows this blog sure is. ;-D Hope I didn’t leave anyone out.

  259. Um, Boots last time I checked I think the postings on this board are going against you. I’m advocating a reasoned approach to dealing with a complex problem.

    You’re advocating a zealous reactionary way of dealing with things.

    I know in you abuse victim world of good and bad, black and white that you’ve probably put me square into the evil, bad person category. I certainly can’t claim that I should be canonized as a saint, but I ain’t some evil sinner either.

    And I damn sure am not Duane.

    Nice try though. Keep looking for those bogey men.

  260. little ex plig kid – you plan the picnic and we’ll all show up. Don’t make it before spring though cuz i like my picnic’s warm and sunny.

  261. little ex plig kid – If veal is on the menu, I’m not showing.

  262. Well if there is a pot luck I vote NO bean dishes.

    Ron and Boots say what ya gotta say and be done with it.
    Put it all on the table and just be done with it.

    Ron you must admit you’ve been zooming in on her for some time. Because of what Buster said?

    So say what you gotta say about Buster to Buster.

  263. Come on everyone – grab a pitch fork – first we round up the folks with no headlights and then ON to ALL THOSE POLYGAMIST. They must be guilty of something. Yee haw! Kick a$$ and take names folks!

    Ron in Houston said this on December 29, 2009 at 7:17 PM

    ——-

    Uh … yeah, all those polygamists would be guilty of polygamy, or more appropriately bigamy. I’m not a fan of the pitchfork method of law enforcement, however. I’m not so opposed to kicking ass and taking names though.

  264. Shall we move on to a more unifying topic ?

  265. Walton

    You know that I’m all for dealing strongly with the known abuses of the FLDS. I feel that Texas is having to clean up a mess that rightfully belongs to Arizona and Utah.

    I’d love to solve the “problem” of polygamy, but then again, I’d love to solve the problem of child abuse. Neither of those issues are going to be solved over night. Those are issues that need to be slowly and methodically dealt with in a systematic manner.

    If you come in acting tough, you may make some immediate impact. However, you’re not going to solve any problems. Eventually, you could likely end up making things worse.

    Ultimately, it’s about winning the hearts and minds of the next generation. If you’re angry and hostile, that generation will see it and will no longer be amenable to whatever help you propose.

    Wars don’t solve problems. They only create more problems that must be dealt with later. We have a choice. We can wage war on the FLDS or we can try to actually solve the problem. All I can do is say my piece about what strategy I think we should take.

    By now that should be clear.

  266. And sliding in from 3rd base is blog owner/operator. 🙂

    Brooke sent off an email to Winston about the post he made on his blog.

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2009/12/winston-blackmores-prediction/

  267. ass kicking sounds good. where should we start?

  268. Ron, and all other interested parties,
    If you have need at any time to have access to my on line library of peer review medical journal articles regarding the effect of polygamy on women and children, consider joining a Yahoo group I have created at the following link :
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TripleAP/
    Just click the join the group icon, which sends a group administrator email to me, and I will approve your membership.

  269. Uh … yeah, all those polygamists would be guilty of polygamy, or more appropriately bigamy. I’m not a fan of the pitchfork method of law enforcement, however. I’m not so opposed to kicking ass and taking names though.

    Hmmm, let see, we really kicked Saddams ass didn’t we? And where are we now? We really kicked the Taliban’s ass didn’t we? And where are we now? Kicking ass is a very good short term solution. However, in the long run all you end up doing is playing “wack a mole.”

    We could kick the polygamists ass quite easily. I ask you – seriously, would that really solve any problems?

  270. Susan

    I greatly appreciate you. You are a person of science who brings logic and reason to this problem. As much as I may disagree with Boots, adding you to the AAAP board of directors was a pretty smart move.

  271. Thanks for the heads up, Walton.

    Think I’ll go watch Winston kick a little more FLDS ass with his new post.

  272. Just as an example, this is how arrogant Flds have been. remember Caden Stubbs the baby who died? The stubbs family had plots in the cemetary and wanted their child buried there. well i read the story in the newspaper about how the father had tried to get an answer from Lyle Jeffs about burying the baby.. And for two days after his death, the father still had not recieved an answer.
    Well, I found this letter from attorneys to UEP trust Bruce Wisan and the family,,, and evidently the attorney’s were asked to write the letter by none other than Willie Jessop…

    Please read it here..
    http://www.childbrides.org/UEP_Jones-Waldo-Holbrook_letter_on_burying_Caden_Stubbs_in_CC_cemetary.pdf

  273. “only the most faithful and those in good standing can be buried in the cemetary?” Really? So what would a baby less than a year old who died be? Chopped Liver????

  274. i love “whack the mole” can wee willie be the mole?

  275. Question of the day:

    We have all the records from YFZ. We know every polygamist husband and all their wives. We could arrest each one of them tommorrow, charge them with bigamy and haul them into court.

    Meanwhile, every polygamist kid would be left without a father or a mother. Does anyone think they’d be happy that we sent their parents to prison? Does anyone think they’d be thankful for our help in saving them?

    I’m sorry to insult anyone. But anyone who thinks “kicking ass and taking names” would solve anything is a simpleton.

  276. i can’t believe it DD1. what does that idiot want, for them to dig up the baby. maybe the wisan didn’t consult lyle because lyle was ignoring the family who did try to consult him.

  277. Can I come too to the picnic…. I have an awesome family potato salad recipe

  278. You never give any examples of my “reactionary” behavior, Ron.

    I’m an activist, for sure.

    I don’t see investigating criminal behavior as reactionary at all.

    One thing is clear after all this, you want to protect the subjugation of women through decriminalization of your client’s behavior.

    You have made multiple personal attacks on me for no reason other than you disagree with my wanting the law, which protects women and children from the abuse of polygamy, to be enforced.

    I can’t think of anything I have said or done that would warrant your personal attacks and viscous behavior.

    I’ve never told anyone to grab a pitch fork or whatever else your new [and very ugly I might ad] alter ego wants anyone else to believe.

    I find the term “die out” distasteful, however, in hindsight, if the Arizona judge had kept all those men in prison, right where they belonged, that’s probably exactly what would have happened with the FLDS.

    Distasteful as it may be, “die out” does not equate to killing, looting, burning at the stake or any other bad thing in your highly vivid imagination that you have expressed these last couple of days.

    Site admin: maybe you should check to make sure no one has Ron’s sign in information?

  279. Ron,
    Take a look at the articles I have gathered. These scientific articles may help a woman exiting polygamy get custody of her children if a judge and jury ever reviewed their content. I have a collection of about 25 articles in English, and now I am working with an Coptic Christian Egyptian female physician on translating some medical articles on polygamy from Arabic.
    How would you visualize helping women and children in polygamous relationships? I tried to get help for some Muslim women from a mosque in NYC about 13 yrs ago, and the mosque did nothing. Those women who were able to afford it got help from an attorney, but the men were never prosecuted for their bigamy because documentation of the bigamist marriages did not exist. What can be done about this problem ?

  280. Proud Texan

    LOL. If its Wee Willie, I want the hammer first..

  281. Then we could have a food fight and toss everything at each other – just like on this blog

  282. i truly don’t know the answer ron. there are probably some young girls who would be greatful that they don’t have to be married off at 12, 13, 14 to old geezers and start popping out 10 – 16 kids. i’d be willing to bet that some of the girls who were married underage might be relieved. put yourself in m. rose barlow allred jeffs keate’s shoes. she’s not even 20 yet and has had 4 last names, the one she was born with, the one she got when her grandfather was exed and her grandmother reassigned, the one she got when she was married to leroy jeffs at 14 and then the one she got when leroy was exed and she was reassigned to keate. do you think she’s just waiting and hoping for another husband? i don’t. i know if it was me i wouldn’t be. look at the choices, wee willie or wendell who’s got who knows how many wives already. its horrible. maybe it would be better to haul them all off to jail and start over. who’s to say.

  283. “Does anyone think they’d be happy that we sent their parents to prison? Does anyone think they’d be thankful for our help in saving them?”

    I think the kids who had to be pushed across the room as they cried and begged their case workers NOT to make them go back definitely would, Ron.

    “I’m sorry to insult anyone. But anyone who thinks “kicking ass and taking names” would solve anything is a simpleton.”

    You seem to think everyone but yourself a simpleton these days. I have some Midol I’d be more than happy to share.

  284. Site admin by all means – check my IP

    It should be 70.139.54.77 – which should belong to AT&T in Houston

    Boots

    Keep looking for those bogey men. They’re probably right outside your door now.

  285. Yea, DD I read that last March or April when it was first made public, I believe there was a discussion thread on this site about it. I think it was determined that the FLDS and weewilly wanted the baby’s dead body dug up and disposed of somewhere other than their “holy” cemetery. As far as I know that never happened.

  286. Ron, in this country, gay people aren’t allowed to get married, in all but three states.
    There is a federal law that says Polygamy is against the law, period. whether religious or secular. Abortion is legal according to the supreme court, therefore anyone who tries to stop abortions, can go to jail, and many do. Mark Shurtleff and Tim Bodily have met with polygamists groups in both utah and arizona, and said, “They would NOT prosecute Polygamy”, but would prosecute anyone who sexually assaults underage children.

    So, you tell me,,, do we enforce the laws of this country? Or just allow everyone to do whatever they want to do, with the promise of non prosecution?
    SO, when someone decides to marry their dog or cat, and have sex with it,, that will be OKAY with liberals and libertarians to?

    We either enforce the laws, or we change them!

  287. you can be right after me ron and i’m deadly with the hammer.

  288. I think the kids who had to be pushed across the room as they cried and begged their case workers NOT to make them go back definitely would, Ron.

    Gee, and exactly how many cases of abused children have you dealt with Boots? Did they come into the casino asking for your help? Or maybe they contacted you as a reporter for some small town newspaper, huh?

    Get a grip lady. You have no idea exactly what abused kids say. All you have is your projection from your own abuse.

  289. Thats Ron alright.

    I’m chalking the conversation up to miscommunication. Like that never happens.

    – ADMIN

  290. HHG

    I agree, it’s somewhat of a food fight. Or perhaps we’re really just pissing in the wind.

    Boots and I want to arrive at the same point. We just strongly disagree on the path to get there.

    I’m pissed because I see the colossal fail that has occurred. Is CPS routinely monitoring girls aged 12 to 17 at the ranch?

    If they’re not it falls squarely at the feet of those who believe that the solution is to “kick ass and take names.”

  291. Ron, I know a young lady right now,, she isn’t in any religion, she just turned 19yrs old. she was sexually abused by her father from the time she was 6yrs old. Last year she found out from her little brother who is 11, that the old guy had been doing the same thing to him.
    She told me just today, that she went down to the police station and filed charges. Her little brother did the same. Today she told me, she hasn’t been able to leave the house, she is so wracked with guilt about turning him in, even though this happened to her over and over till she was 16yrs old. She said, she hated him for what he did , but she delt with it , till she found out he also did her little brother the same way.
    She is caught between hating and loving her father. Even though she knows it was nothing she did to cause the sexual assaults, she said, the guilt is still there.
    Social Services is investigating all this, but her father was arrested this afternoon.
    She is scared to face him,, especially when they go to court, and said had it not been her little brother, she would not have filed charges. She is also fighting the guilt that had she told someone years ago, her little brother wouldn’t have had to endure the same sexual abuse. So, yes, I know what abused children say, how they feel and how lonely it is for them when they make the decision to actually Do somthing about it.

  292. Ron,
    What sort of monitoring would you suggest, or rather, what kind of monitoring could be legally conducted ?

  293. My statement above is not meant to be a part of a food fight.

  294. Ron said: “Meanwhile, every polygamist kid would be left without a father or a mother. Does anyone think they’d be happy that we sent their parents to prison? Does anyone think they’d be thankful for our help in saving them?”

    Yes. I want them to go to jail. I would like to see the parents that traded their kids in for a piece of property, money a house or piece of pie in the sky to go to jail.
    I want to see old men or young men that prey on little girls for their virginity go to jail.
    I want to see Dan Barlow go to jail.
    I want to see Geidon Barlows mother go to jail.
    I want to see Winston Blackmore in jail.
    I want to see Parley Jeffs Dutsons parents sitting in a cell four doors down.
    I want to see Merill Jessop in jail.

    Did you see the video about the kids that have left Short Creek? The hell that they went thru once leaving and the internal fight that they face daily? Even Pliggy had his own hell.

    I want to see the people that caused Ruth so much pain behind bars.

    NO one should have to feel like that. Not even Pliggy.

    Maybe just maybe those kids would stand a better chance on the outside.

  295. Walton,, Pliggy is back in, so he is now happy as a lark.

  296. deputydog Pliggy can’t be in. Warren would never ok it. So Pliggy might think he is in but he really isn’t. He is in a new limbo.

    If Pliggy were truly in than all the others could go back. They aren’t.

    No Prophet. No pass. jmo

  297. Wow, I take a day off and you guys go crazy on me. 🙂

    Ron said at 8:14 – “Ultimately, it’s about winning the hearts and minds of the next generation. If you’re angry and hostile, that generation will see it and will no longer be amenable to whatever help you propose.”

    There’s where I’ll differ with you, Ron. And if I can put words in Boots’ mouth (not that she needs any help in that area 🙂 I think her point would be that we’ve already wasted a generation and would rather do what we can to save THIS generation than try to wage yet another generation of PR battles and educational campaigns. (Although if anyone could demonstrate an effective way of getting education into a closed society like the FLDS, I’d love to listen to their plan. But that’s another lengthy discussion.)

    The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) takes the position that polygamy (more correctly polygyny) is inherently abusive to women and children. There is a wealth of research to this effect, some of which Susan the MD has been posting to the Yahoo group she created for AAAP.

    I believe the case of your client (who was reportedly very happy being a plural wife to a Muslim man) was very much the exception and not the rule — in fact, it is so much the exception that it may not even be statistically significant. (That’s a hunch; I don’t have hard statistics to back that claim up, it’s just based on the myriad of books and documents I’ve read.)

  298. i’m like you walton, i don’t think pliggy’s back in really, they just want something from him so they’re toying with him. if he was really back in, he’d get his wife and child back.

  299. No walton, Pliggy is really back in,,, he was let back in before Thanksgiving. He was even at the last meeting of Judge Lindberg and FLDS thing.

  300. I don’t think you get a wife back, if shes been married off to another man ProudTexan,, but im sure they like his tithes,, but he is back in.

  301. Texas Connie,
    The happier wives in plural marriage are the junior wives. The senior wives tend to have alot more difficulty with plural marriage. See my articles by Alean Al – Krenawi on this topic at the Yahoo Group website.

  302. Remember that Pliggy wasn’t kicked out, he left on his own to repent, lol

  303. yeah they do need money alright.

  304. Well I think it was Joseph Smith who had 33 wives and 33% percent of them were underage brides… a small percentage were over child bearing years, and pretty much ignored.

  305. The older women get to make baby clothes, print children stories and get sent away to the FLDS old womens home! So much for married for better or worse, sickness or health, till death do you part, lol

  306. DD,
    I was quoting the Islamic literature on polygamy, but you are correct, the fundamentalist Mormon polygamy literature has a similar finding.

  307. I know if my husband brought in a very young pretty wife at my age, id be pissed!!

  308. I think Id kill him and send her on her way!

  309. Ill share most anything I have except my husband!!

  310. deputydog how do you know Pliggy is really in? As far as being at the Judge Lindberg thing Wild Bill said he was going to go as well. Heck I think I could have gone.

    But what makes you think he is really in? Who said so? Warren couldn’t say so. No one else but the Prophet can let someone else back in. Did Ruth get to back into the community? The lost boys?
    How do you know this?
    Was I napping for a couple of months or what?

  311. Walton, Lyle Jeffs could let him back in, he is presideing bishop at short creek… Pliggy himself said he is back in

  312. Walton, I don;t think most of the lost boys want back in, and Ruth they consider crazy. But pliggy has been working a year to get back in, and he made it

  313. Betty is back in,,, she got back in last year. Im assuming either Merrill or Lyle let her go back to.

  314. Betty who is back in? Who put Lyle in charge?

    They say Ruth is crazy but she made more sense then a whole lot of them imo. She fought for her kids. She tried standing up to those that tried to harm them.

    So does Lyle hold Church services in Short Creek? Does Lyle have any say as to what is going on in Texas?

    What the heck is he doing in charge? Slipping and sliding I bet.

  315. Did they vote on it? Did Warren put it in writing? Was it said on a speaker phone at the jail?

    Lyle can’t be in charge.

    This is funny.

  316. Oh I bet it was written in Rulons will that if his son Warren the new Prophet that shouldn’t be a Prophet ends up in jail then the next person should be Willie E. Timpson aka Jessop woooops Lyle Jeffs should be acting as Prophet.

    Goodness sake. Someone should talk to me before they go ahead with some of these plans. oy

  317. Someone forgot to turn a page or finish a page in that whole scene. lol

    oh my.

    And people wonder why I ask the same questions over and over. lol

  318. This is my last post for the evening, because I really need to step away from this but..

    Ron,
    “You have no idea exactly what abused kids say”

    I know what more than one Texas CPS worker, WHO WAS THERE, told me those children did and said, including crying and begging NOT to have to go back.

    You really need to give the personal attacks a REST, bubba.

  319. So many changes and yet nothing changes. Sad.

    And who was at this meeting in the Park this time? Willie? Shurtleff? Mary B.? Anne Wilde?

    and the slide into C.Park eases ever so slowly.

  320. walton, i have no clue who let lyle be in charge, but from what i’ve seen, wee willie thinks he’s in charge.

  321. Winston Blackmore: When whole congregations bow to new teachings that contradict what Christ has already said then they are shifting their foundation from His church to their new man.

    ………………………………..

    In my opinion, that statement works for Warren Jeffs/FLDS and Joseph Smith/LDS.

  322. so if pliggy’s been out for only a year, then there’s a good chance his wife hasn’t been reassigned, so maybe if he’s really back in, he can have her back.

    who’s making the assignments and performing ceremonies these days?

  323. that is so true mouse.

  324. I don’t know why they don’t just rip the band-aid off this whole thing and tell it like it is.

    Stupid games being played out for what reason?

    If they’ve got trials coming up I hope they have cameras inside from every branch of media. Writers and reporters with eyes wide open detailing every thing.

    A big Crock pot of BS imo is being served. imo

  325. Flurries…

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14090245

    and

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14090695

  326. Twist, I especially love this paragraph: “The petition, filed by Stephen C. Clark, also asks that an option to repurchase “irreplaceable” dairy cows, set to expire on Dec. 31, be extended indefinitely. Fiduciary Bruce R. Wisan, who manages the trust, sold the heifers earlier this year.”

    They trade wives like cattle, but dairy cows are irreplaceable????

  327. I liked that one, too, Connie.

    It took some balls for them to ask for this…

    “In a petition filed Monday, attorneys for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ask for a stay of all proceedings and orders….”

    …when they have ignored Judge Lindberg’s stand down order of November 2008.

  328. Wives may come and go, Connie.

    But dairy cows are forever.

    Remember that.

  329. Well, ya learn something new every day. “Dairy cows are forever.” LOL

  330. http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/

    wow!! so who has more pull about why things are kept so hush hush?

    I have a vision….Those were crop circles and they are a holding spot for the mothership to land back down.

  331. Keep trying Duane, but still not getting around the ban. – Admin

  332. Notta –
    You Troll, begone

  333. Izzat you again, duane?

    Or are you his wife?

  334. Duane in any sock, I’m told you’re an ignoranus.

  335. Before internet, I used to believe that washers ate socks. Now I know where they go.

  336. Wives may come and go, Connie.
    But dairy cows are forever.
    Remember that.

    Ya know…given the choice, if I was a female stuck in flds…I’d rather be a milk cow. At least they get touched every day!! The wives hafta share and MAYBE get a little ‘procreation only’ sex every few months, until they cant produce anymore. Give me a nice warm barn and a hay bale over that, any day!

  337. Two new articles by Brooke Adams on recent filings in the UEP trust. The flds are God’s gifts to attorneys in UT, AZ, TX, ??.

    http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_14090695

    http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_14090245

  338. So duane is Ron’s sockpuppet? Ron or should I call you Benedict Arnold…how could you do this

    No Ron made a quite sarcastic retort to Boots’ asinine accusation.

    Your admins are doing a good job of intercepting and deleting Duane’s legion of sock puppets. I only post under my own name. Even though I have a dynamic IP, I know it hasn’t changed in the last 1 to 2 months.

    In any event, unless I’m at some wifi spot on my laptop, my IP will always trace back to AT&T in Houston.

  339. Ron,
    “You have no idea exactly what abused kids say”

    I know what more than one Texas CPS worker, WHO WAS THERE, told me those children did and said, including crying and begging NOT to have to go back.

    You really need to give the personal attacks a REST, bubba.

    Hardly a personal attack, honey dumplin. You just admitted you’ve talked to no abused kids and are wholly relying on hearsay.

    Nuff said.

  340. Question of the day:

    We have all the records from YFZ. We know every polygamist husband and all their wives. We could arrest each one of them tommorrow, charge them with bigamy and haul them into court.

    Meanwhile, every polygamist kid would be left without a father or a mother. Does anyone think they’d be happy that we sent their parents to prison? Does anyone think they’d be thankful for our help in saving them?

    I’m sorry to insult anyone. But anyone who thinks “kicking ass and taking names” would solve anything is a simpleton.

    Ron in Houston said this on December 29, 2009 at 8:33 PM

    ——

    Ok, ok, it’s my turn to be the simpleton of the day.

    But hear me out … “kicking ass and taking names” is figurative obviously. This is a really complex problem. On the one hand, polygamy is a felony and there are pretty good arguments that the manner in which the FLDS practice polygamy is harmful to children. It is my personal belief that it is harmful to those children, across the board. It is also irresponsible at best, neglectful at worst, for parents o knowingly engage in felonious conduct that carries a stiff prison sentence. That is very risky behavior that needs to be corrected for the well being of those children — for the exact reason that the children do need their parents to raise them and they don’t need to have their parents in prison.

    On the other hand, I do not believe that every parent who commits a felony should have their kids taken away from them, and I do not believe that every person who commits a felony should be penalized to the full extent of the law. I also do not believe that a blind eye should be turned to parents who continue to engage in high risk behavior just because we don’t want those poor children to be without their criminal parents.

    I think the way the State of Texas has handled the prosecutions is exactly appropriate. They are prosecuting the most egregious cases of bigamy that involve prohibited marriages to underage girls. They have also targeted the community leaders. Could they have brought 200 more bigamy cases to trial? Sure, in a hypothetical world of unlimited time, talent and resources. Would that serve the children of those parents, if they all got convicted. Probably some, and probably not others. Older children would not benefit from being placed in a non-FLDS home because they are beyond the age where they can be un-indoctrinated and re-indoctrinated into mainstream society. Very young children who are still developing and forming cognitively, I believe they would all benefit from being removed from the oppressive environment of the FLDS. Would they be placed in better environments in each and every case? Absolutely not. It’s always a crapshoot when you put a kid in foster care. It should be a last resort, only after a parent has screwed up so severely and so often that there is literally no hope that they will improve their parenting abilities.

    There are measures in between ignoring the problem and putting them all in prison. CPS is a cesspool organization that screws up way more than it helps. I wouldn’t trust them to help the children. I STILL do not believe that the problem and the adverse effects on the children should be ignored. I do not have a good solution, but it’s worthwhile to keep exposing the problems and hopefully create more transparency and more opportunities to help the children in some manner short of putting all of their parents in jail.

    Your friend,

    Simpleton

  341. You had me at “This is a really complex problem.”

  342. Did you get all the way to “I do not have a good solution”?

  343. Gee FLDS Texas

    That sure seemed liked an awful complex response from a simpleton.

    I agree with you that sunshine is the best disinfectant. I got called a bigot over and over for making the analogy between the FLDS men and cockroaches. Basically, when the lights come on, they run and hide. I thought it was an apt analogy but it got those FLDS online saying it was bigoted hatred.

    My opinion is that the fallout from the raid have made many reluctant to shine that light.

  344. Yep, made it to there and stayed with ya.

  345. Well, Gee, Ron said he was working up a reasonable solution to a complex problem, I guess I missed it.

    Did you post it yet Ron?

  346. I think the kids who had to be pushed across the room as they cried and begged their case workers NOT to make them go back definitely would, Ron.
    ================================================
    Do you think that little boy should have stayed in Brazil against the wishes of his father Boots?

  347. It is also irresponsible at best, neglectful at worst, for parents o knowingly engage in felonious conduct that carries a stiff prison sentence. That is very risky behavior that needs to be corrected for the well being of those children — for the exact reason that the children do need their parents to raise them and they don’t need to have their parents in prison.
    =====================================================
    Strange logic. To call a certain activity a felony that put parents at risk of prison, then to protect their children from parent’s activity that may put these parents in prison, put the parents in prison.

  348. Older children would not benefit from being placed in a non-FLDS home because they are beyond the age where they can be un-indoctrinated and re-indoctrinated into mainstream society.
    =================================================
    Icky. Plus courts have ruled what children believe is the sole province of the parents.

  349. My opinion is that the fallout from the raid have made many reluctant to shine that light.

    Ron in Houston said this on December 30, 2009 at 6:44 AM

    —–

    Indeed. What a shame. Opportunity wasted.

    Well, not entirely wasted, but not put to best use.

  350. Stamp – solution? Yeah, and I’ve got the solution to global warming on my hard drive also.

    What I said was I’m proposing a reasoned RESPONSE to a complex problem.

    Texas has the records. They could have rounded up every person in a polygamist relationship at YFZ. They didn’t do that.

    Greg Abbot is doing a good job with this issue. They’re targeting on one hand the worst cases, but they’re also targeting the leadership. That’s a reasoned response to the issue. Is it a solution? Beats the hell out of me. It’s a start and it doesn’t play into their PR spin of you’re doing this because you hate our dear sweet religion.

  351. Well that was interesting….
    Sorry I couldn’t join in – I worked….. It looks like most of you had the day off.
    Susan MD I have an article I found that is specifically on the FLDS and sibling dynamics…stronger relationships between full siblings than half siblings…are you intersted?

  352. Well I agree that Greg Abbots office has done a fine job – and adding to that, the states of UT and AZ as well as the Fed have done a little but need to step up to the plate a few more times and get these abuses down to a low roar.

    We’ve probably spent too much time on the semantics of how to do it – we are adults here – we know this group has been enabled, we know the crimes and we know the actors.

    Its time for a paradigm shift, and for agencies to work together to ensure that the abuses against women and children are put to a halt.

    Its coming together.

  353. I keep wondering when the FED shoe is going to drop….. I find it impossible to believe that they are sitting this one out on the sidelines

  354. HHG

    I’m a firm believer that the Mormon influence in the Bush justice department put a damper on it. Will it change in the Obama justice department? I wonder if it’s really on their radar.

    I think now would be a very good time for Reid to conduct more hearings.

  355. Brett Tolman’s departure as the US Attorney for Utah is a good start.

    Officially, tomorrow is his last day.

  356. Senator Harry Reid is an active LDS member as is Senator Orrin Hatch. Obviously not all LDS members think alike on these issues. Unless Eric Holder ,or the President himself raise the priority of
    poygamy, I think there will be little change at the federal level.

  357. A friend of mine told me they knew of a polygynist Muslim couple who were very happy. I pressed for more information. My friend knows the first wife, who works in computer technology outside of Washington DC. The husband lives in New York City with his younger wife, who speaks no English and is a recent import to the US. He visits DC for a weekend now and then to see the first wife.

    So I guess if “very happy” is a relative statement; if she doesn’t want to live with that man or any man maybe she’s happy. I wonder if he asked her before he took the new wife. I wonder who pays for everything, the two living situations, etc. I wondered what would happen if first wife lost her job and moved into the apartment in New York. My (male) friend hadn’t even thought about those issues.

  358. I think the Feds are waiting for the Appeal on the Evidence by the Court of Appeals to see if they need to get an entirely new set of search warrants or if they are good to go with the evidence they’ve got. JMO

  359. Since Michael Levitt is no longer head of HHS for United States, as he was replaced when Obama administration came in, Hopefully things will change… I honestly believe HE had something to do with the sudden exist of CPS in the cases in YFZ ranch.

  360. TexasTwist I agree with you on the Brett Tolman issue,, Good ridance

  361. @ Anon 9:11 AM :
    The Islamic medical literature on polygamy is quite clear. First wives are usually dissatisfied with polygamy. They learn to tolerate it at best.
    The newest wife is usually happiest, due to the fact that she receives more attention. First wives stay in polygamist relationships often for financial reasons – they lack the skills to earn an income, or Islamic society forbids them to go out of the home to hold a job.

  362. One of two theories ProudTexan. Either they are waiting on the appeal courts to confirm or deny if the evidence is admissible or they haven’t found any federal violations sufficient to sustain a conviction.

  363. I should also add that some first wives stay in polygamist relationships due to the social stigma in the Islamic community associated with divorce.

  364. “…did aid and abet a fugitive…” ring any bells, alin?

  365. And that’s the low hanging fruit.

  366. Anon

    “A friend of mine told me they knew of a polygynist Muslim couple who were very happy. I pressed for more information. My friend knows the first wife, who works in computer technology outside of Washington DC.

    The husband lives in New York City with his younger wife, who speaks no English and is a recent import to the US. He visits DC for a weekend now and then to see the first wife.”

    =================================

    Well therein may lie the answer. In my experience, knowing Asians who are always trying to immigrate, this smacks of a guy taking advantage of the situation to bring in a sister or other relative illegally rather than a naturally flowering relationship.

    Immigration Fraud. Divorce wife #1, seperate, marry wife #2, bring her in, and have her pretend to be the wife in all ways to all people.

    Its out and out fraud that way. Polygamy isnt legal and as she is muslim and cant speak English I tend to think she couldn’t get any visa any other way.

    Sorry, just suspicious of such stories. Seen too much illegal immigration too.

    Probably good I don’t know who they are.

  367. One of two theories ProudTexan. Either they are waiting on the appeal courts to confirm or deny if the evidence is admissible or they haven’t found any federal violations sufficient to sustain a conviction.

    ———————————–

    Alin – i’m going with the 1st as there are plenty of violations sufficient to sustain multiple convictions.

  368. Once again, the troll Alinusara hasn’t read the documents!! As always they are talking out their ass.

  369. The FLDS havent found a state or federal law they arent willing to violate.

    They hold themselves to a lower standard than the rest of us.

  370. OH what a tangled web they weave, when they practice to decieve!
    Sooner or later,,Willie, you get caught!!! remember Aspen Management Willie? My oh My!

  371. what’s aspen management?

  372. Aspen Management was an LLC owned by Willie Jessop,, used to sell property off from the trust for Warren Jeffs while he was on the run… But, after it was detected by Bruce Wisan, the company went belly up.. no longer exists.

  373. A friend of mine told me they knew of a polygynist Muslim couple who were very happy. I pressed for more information. My friend knows the first wife, who works in computer technology outside of Washington DC. The husband lives in New York City with his younger wife, who speaks no English and is a recent import to the US. He visits DC for a weekend now and then to see the first wife.

    Biologically, if you map desire for sexual relations over time in a relationship, a woman’s desire steadily declines while the man’s is pretty much constant. Assuming this holds true, I could see at least biologically why women may be willing to accept wife #2.

    Now emotionally and psychologically would be a whole different analysis which would be highly dependent on things like culture.

    The client I had was wife #2 and I never got to meet or speak to wife #1. I met the husband but never asked about the issue.

    I suppose it can work, but as Susan would tell you, the empirical data reflect quite negatively on the practice.

  374. keep on keeping on bruce!!!

  375. Ron

    Add to that is the fact there are some 100 plus Utah / Arizona fundy offshoots, each with their own rules.

    Comparing muslim polygamy to fundamental mormon polygamy is really tough, but I would imagine that muslims adapt better due to cultural habits over millinea compared to women pretending to be fundy mormons sticking out like a sore thumb, submitting to all number of abuses which may suit the “Prophet of the Day” on a moments whim.

    Of interest on this note is the affidavits supplied to Harry Reids Fed task force, in which many members of Dan Fischers ex-FLDS family detailed the horrors of polygamy.

    Of course the context was to demonize Dan – but the reality of the story shone bright – polygamy is fun for none.

    At least not in Short Creek.

    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/19636465/CRIMES-ASSOCIATED-WITH-POLYGAMY-THE-NEED-FOR-A-COORDINATED-STATE-AND-FEDERAL-RESPONSE-Senate-Congressional-Hearing-110

  376. Stamp,
    There is abundant medical literature on Muslim polygyny which indicates that it has a negative effect on senior wives and children as well.
    There are books written about fundamentalist Mormon polygyny (such as Desert Patriarchy and Women of Principle, by Janet Bennion, PhD) and its effect on women, however, these are not empiric studies, as these Mormon groups will not permit the women to fill out anonymous surveys on marital satisfaction administered by physicians. The books on Mormon polygyny are therefore classified as observational studies, written not by physicians, but usually cultural anthropologists. Most of the anecdotal reports on fundamentalist Mormon polygyny reveal that the women encounter similar problems as the Muslim women do, such as jealousy, rivalry, and violence among wives, and diminished time and economic resources allocated by the father for the care of his children.

  377. Two more titles for the books Wish Lists.

    Thanks again, Susan.

  378. Alin – i’m going with the 1st as there are plenty of violations sufficient to sustain multiple convictions.
    ===============================================
    Could be. Not up to you or I to decide however but the US Attorney General Office.

  379. Twist,
    You can get used copies cheaply on Amazon.

  380. Susan

    Thanks – yeah, who would have guessed such a thing!??

    Its not all “Big Love” like on HBO? ha ha ha

    Well, joking aside, I think its important to note that the guy who inspired this among fundamentals, his first wife Emma, was certainly not pleased with it not to mention Joe having a tough sell once he went down that road.

    Once Joe died, she split seeing that polygamy was to be continued by Brigham. I dont think any of the Re-organized LDS have since practiced it.

    to wit:

    http://www.johnwhitmerbooks.com/books/samplepages/Sample_v1-3_text.pdf

  381. I’m a frequent visitor to Alibris.com and found the copies I’m looking for. Order sent.

    Belated Boxing Day to me. 🙂

  382. That reminds me of a question I have, Stamp.

    Can anyone confirm that the Washington County, Utah connected folks in Humansville, Missouri are AUB?

  383. Twist

    So much sects, so little time….

    They have been good about keeping out of the news, besides that pesky little lawsuit they just lost for a million bucks or so.

    Here is a good primer, but I havent followed them as much.

    http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Apostolic_United_Brethren

  384. OOPS

    Yeah they got in hot water too.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy1129.html

  385. Ron re: polygamous Muslim marriages: I suppose it can work, but as Susan would tell you, the empirical data reflect quite negatively on the practice.

    …………………….

    How does divorce in a polygamous marriage work out in a community property state. Assuming first wife is the legal wife, she gets half, hubby and remaining wife/wives get half.

  386. HHG,
    Can you provide a link to that study on the FLDS sibling dynamics? It sounds really interesting.

  387. Mouse

    First wife would get 1/2 – other wives (unless they have a written contract) get zero since the state doesn’t recognize the second marriage.

  388. anon e mouse

    Just another good reason for it to be illegal. A pending divorce might make a prophet decide to marry 20 women, which would give the divorcing wife 1/21.

    Doesnt it give you a brain burn? And then could you imagine child visitation. Or health care. Name it, every social aspect would be pretty FUBAR.

  389. chemist,
    Please keep in mind that Orrin Hatch is from a lineage of polygamists.

    Harry Reid converted to the LDS church.

    I see a HUGE difference here.

  390. Apostolic United Brethren

    Flock: between 5,000 and 8,000

    Locale: most in several towns in Utah and Ozumba, Mexico, where they have a temple; Pinesdale, MT; Lovell, WY; Mesa, AZ, Humansville, MO.

  391. Thanks for the links, Stamp.

    I notice on the first one that Humansville has been crossed out and it appears it was probably originally sourced to the Wikipedia entry.

    So possibly the Wiki entry is wrong and that’s one of the things I’m interested to learn.

    There’s an undeniable connection between families in Humansville and Stockton to Washington County.

    Just can’t tell what fundamentalist beliefs they share in common, if any.

  392. That’s what I’m trying to confirm, dd1.

    The first link provided by Stamp has Humansville crossed out.

  393. The United Latter-day Church of Jesus Christ

    Flock: 100-200

    Locale: Mostly David County, UT but also some in CA, AZ and WY.

    Extracurricular Beliefs: Polygamy; Law of Consecration; Excludes black men from the priesthood. They split from the FLDS group during while Leroy S. Jenkins was prophet. They still accepted that priesthoods conferred by the FLDS were valid until Warren Jeffs took over.

  394. “Extracurricular Beliefs”

    LOL…interesting way to phrase that.

  395. btw…I loved your Rock, Scissors, Paper analogy dd1.

    Another thing that made me laugh today and spot on.

  396. As I recall they formed out of the FLDS in the first split, looks like they are all over the map now including Mexico but also (citation needed)infiltrating the LDS Church secretly.

    WOW

    http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Apostolic-United-Brethren

    Here is their press release IRT the FLDS fiasco.

    http://mormonfundamentalism.org/news/aub-statement-on-marriage/

  397. Anon: Yes, I am aware that Harry Reid is a convert to the LDS faith as I am. I have speculated in earlier posts that there may be a different perception of polygmy between UT LDS whose ancestors were polygamists and converts who do not live in UT. However, the point that there are differing views by LDS people on polygamy, politics, etc is valid.

  398. Thanks Texas Twist, always good to laugh! 🙂

  399. My understanding is that what became the AUB resulted in the doctrinal/power split between Musser/Allred and Barlow/Johnson/Jeffs.

    Rulon’s sister was married to Rulon Clark Allred and when the split came she remained within the FLDS flock with three of their children who are familiar names within the current FLDS structures.

  400. Always good to read your perspectives and input, chemist.

  401. My 12:26 should read “resulted from” and not “resulted in.”

  402. I am reading the history of the temple at YFZ ranch in FLDS101.

    http://flds101.blogspot.com/

    A couple of things I found particularly interesting:

    1. The FLDS, as always considering themselves above the law, failed to get any building permits, including for water and sewer. I am guessing they choose remote properties both for lower purchase price and to make it easier to thumb their noses at all sorts of laws. Failure to get proper permits where I live results in work stoppage and padlocks by order of the sheriff.

    2. Warren’s “special secret cement” and the failure thereof. Haaaaahahahaha. It’s not rocket science, I can mix it myself for yard and garden projects, using the special “Home Depot” cement.

    Warren Jeffs is a fruitcake. Every idea or dream he has is a divine revelation. When it doesn’t work out, it’s because God was just testing him, or other members of the FLDS are sinful.

    It would be funny if so many innocent children weren’t being denied a normal life in the process.

  403. chemist,
    You are absolutely right that there are differing views IRT polygamy among the LDS. I didn’t mean to belittle your point.

    I was just trying to point out that Harry Reid might not be as desensitized to the polygamy issue as people in powerful positions such as Orrin Hatch.

    Reid seems to want action and justice. Hatch seems to just want to let them be left alone.

  404. If you read Warren’s dictations about the sewer plant issues, his reasoning on why TCEQ had no jurisdiction over the plant was because it is located on privately owned property.

    Shows a total ignorance of the governing statutes and regulations and I’d wager it was pulled out of his netherregions with no input from counsel.

  405. Well that explains a lot Twist. Since they keep the little sheeples in Texas on private property, state and federal laws dont apply as well.

    Give the FLDS a law.

    They’ll break it!

  406. Texas laws gave officials few tools to monitor the FLDS. They were able to monitor the FLDS when it came to environmental regulations in waste treatment but couldn’t enter the compound without probable cause, U.S. Rep. Mike Conaway, R-Midland, said.

    The FLDS didn’t need a construction permit to build out in Schleicher County, officials said. State laws allow home schooling with little to no supervision.

    “I would say certainly all those played a part in their decision-making,” said state Rep. Drew Darby, R-San Angelo, of District 72.

  407. Such was the case in Shortcreek too. They avoided RE tax by not finishing buildings. THAT ended, and now mohave county requires much more as far as permits and inspections than the past.

    They also had to change the rule, once you occupy it you start paying taxes on the improvements.

    The TCEQ matter is different than podunk town building rules. That Warren thought laws dont apply to him is a glaring sign of his narcissism.

    Yes, despite its remote location, there IS civilization in Schleicher county, SHERLOCK.

  408. Precisely, Stamp.

  409. I read an article about Kristyn Decker, who is the sister of Lucille Barlow. Decker went to Texas to search for her sister, because she had been reassigned to the ranch. She had not heard from her sister in 10yrs, because Decker left Flds several years ago.
    She said Lucille had been married to Dale Evans Barlow, and evidently Warren had reassigened her to YFZ to help take care of some of Warren’s children. Lucille is 62yrs old
    Evidently Decker did not find her sister, 😦

  410. Which reminds me – regardless that they dont require permits /inspections, the improvements are assessed and taxes due.

    I think the Tax assessor has the right to go on site.

    Whats the annual tax bill out there now, 300 or is it $500,000?

  411. How can family just decide your no longer alive, if you leave, to start a life of your own?

  412. T. GEORGE — Environmental investigators have found several violations at a 1,300-acre retreat for polygamists under construction in Schleicher County, Texas, near San Angelo.

    David Allred, a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is the sole registered agent for YFZ Land, owner of the property.

    “There are violations in their air and water programs and concerns about on-site septic systems and solid waste disposal,” said Ricky Anderson, Region 8 director with the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality.

    “We visited with YFZ on the site and in our office about this, and I will say there is an eagerness on their part to come into compliance. We are still in the process of writing the report, but I think everything there can be remedied.”

  413. that is what bothers me most.. FLDS claim to be loving, caring people, and whine about how important family is,, and yet if your child or sister or husband or mother leave,, POOF, they are dead to family members!

  414. DD

    I cant imagine, Pligkid went through it, his mom quit talking to him, unless he acknowledges Warren as prophet she will never know him or his family.

    Aint life amazing sometimes?

  415. Stamp, there is no way to justify their thinking! How a mother who gives birth to a child can just mark it off, if they decide to leave,, yes, its amazing.

  416. Ron,
    I’ve only read a little of the recent thread between you and Boots. But I do wish to lend you my support. I’ve followed this public conversation since back in the days when I used the handle Silver. I use my own first name now. I’ve previously locked horns with Boots myself over her strongly worded statements.

    I used to be involved in volunteer activity; being a CASA, and volunteering in Damage Assessment for the Red Cross. I’m not anymore, because I do other things.

    There is nobody more damaging than an ideologue, including those in social services. In fact, the social services network is a very good counter example of the idea that “it takes a village to raise a child”. That idea is not in my opinion correct. Rather,it takes 2 committed parents, and a decent community around them.

    Children who end up in Family Court have already developed very complicated and self protective reactions to the world. By this time, as you know, a multitude of laws have come into effect. This brings a large number of people to the table, all of whom have just enough power to make their opinion heard, but not enough power to effect change. So the equation slowly extends to include more and more variables, while the child sits. Unlike a math equation, the child’s mind and soul cannot be continuously rebalanced. In addition to which, the impact of money in the whole process, while perhaps helpful in a few instances, is otherwise largely immoral.

  417. Alinusara, they still havent gotten their sewer plant completed,, and the reason there was a problem in the first place is 1. They didn’t get a permit to build a water treatment plant. 2. the whole area uses the underground aquifer for water, and 3. They were dumping their sewage into the draw, which contaminates the underground aquifer!!
    DO YOU GET IT NOW!!

  418. I’ve seen many explainations why the system of social services doesn’t work by many posters. I’ve yet to see any solution to the problem, or how to protect children from abusive parents, religious practices. We can all do monday morning quarterbacking, but it still offers no solution.
    Two parents and a community are nice, but many children don’t have either. So do we disban Health and Human Services and just let whatever happens to a child happen, and say well, they have two parents and good community around them?
    If its broken, there are ideas needed to fix the system.

  419. Lorna Lucille Allred Barlow isn’t/wasn’t married to Dale Evans Barlow; she was one of his mothers as she was married before the FLDS/AUB split to Dale Evans’ father, Dan Barlow Sr.

    She became Lorna Lucille Allred Barlow Jessop when she was reassigned to Merril Jessop in 2004 after her first husband was exed by Warren.

    Her father was Owen Allred, brother to Rulon Clark Allred who filled his position after he was murdered by the LeBaron’s.

    Dale Evans and his older brother “Bob” are now “aka Allreds” as their mother was reassigned to one of the two sons of Leona Jeffs Allred and Rulon Clark Allred.

    No idea if that means that Lorna is still one of their mothers or not since there are new husbands and no daddy in common anymore.

    I’m pretty sure her “marriage” to Merril took place at YFZ so she was there at one point in time.

    Possible she was there in April 2008, but her children are all grown so she doesn’t show up in the CPS filings.

    And yes, it is very sad the way families have been ripped apart, particulary during Warren’s reign of error.

    That is the essence of Winston’s holiday message to his former brethren.

  420. alin,

    Did you not read the dictations?

    (Rhetorical question, folks.)

    Warren said they were exempt from TCEQ regulations.

    Obviously he was wrong, but they went his way first and failed to initially get the required permits.

  421. But Judith

    Ideologue’s got the FLDS in this fine mess to begin with, did they not?

  422. Stamp,
    The answer to your question is “yes.” Why did you being your message with “But”?

  423. “There are violations in their air and water programs and concerns about on-site septic systems and solid waste disposal,” said Ricky Anderson, Region 8 director with the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality.

    “We visited with YFZ on the site and in our office about this, and I will say there is an eagerness on their part to come into compliance. We are still in the process of writing the report, but I think everything there can be remedied.”

    ……………………………

    It would be a good idea to come into compliance. You don’t want the EPA on your arse, they have the power to shut just about anything down.

    Of course, if the FLDS got called on the carpet for damaging the environment, I’m sure they would claim religious prosecution for that, too.

  424. remember good ole zavanda, wife of edson jr who went off to the yfz and left part of her children behind, well, turns out she was an underaged bride herself. she was married to her 1st husband at the ripe old age of 16 years, 1 month!!!

  425. Thanks Twist, I had the name of whom she had married all messed up, lol Evidently she wasn’t on the ranch,,, probably at another compound they have for old women.

  426. Proud Texan, see I dont get that either,, She said on national tv in an interview , she only had 3 children on one show, then later we find out she has a little girl also, AND children she left behind in the creek!!! Dumb ass women!!! You don;t go off and leave your children behind!!

  427. Judith

    Just a form of speech, to emphasize the disparity between the two.

    I have read the bulk of Ron and Boots discussion and dont really want to dredge it back up, and I dont think they do either.

    But I would like to point out that Boots isnt in charge of any social programs, she runs a blog and is an activist. I am sure LEA read and get all kinds of advice daily on how to do their jobs.

    The smart cops do what the law requires inside of legal boundaries, regardless of ideology of one side or another.

    However, I would have to grasp that word and concentrate on it, “idealogue”, as really the “A number one reason” the FLDS got in trouble in the first place – idealogue’s driven by the ever moving ideology of a False Prophet.

    Warren’s brand of ideology has pretty much thoroughly destructed this culture, damning half of them and the other half got raided and the dirtiest dozen are going to prison.

    Pesky idealogues!

  428. Stamp, my idealougues is protection of the weakest in our society, that being Children. Why? Because parents are actually supposed to ideally protect their children from abuse, any kind of abuse, from not getting enough to eat, to having enough sleep, to keeping them from preditors, to giving them the loving encouraging words that build their self esteem, and allow them to detach or become independent human beings when they become legal age.
    Now, Im not saying Social Services has it all right, and yes, they do get it wrong many times. But at this point, this is the best we have till a better system is implemented. My regret is that CPS didn’t follow through. Not saying all children would have gone to foster homes, most would have probably gone right back to the ranch, but there are a few, who today should NOT be on that ranch.

  429. DD

    BINGO! Its a sad fact we need CPS and Foster care programs, but its still a fact we need them.

    In the context of this group, with the mixing, leaving and exing of men women and children of all ages, they create their own nightmare internally, and on “VILLAGE” scale.

    True many children should never have been returned . . . they are still at risk.

    I still think this will unfold all the way on them… but they brought it on themselves.

  430. Well, as this year draws to a close I am struck by all the half-truths and misinformed assertions foisted upon the Press & Public by Willie R. Jessop. Willie likes to defiantly proclaim that the FLDS Church congregants are here to stay and the good folks of Schleicher County had better just get adjusted/used to the idea that felons for neighbors is what he truly meant by a ‘Good Neighbor’ policy when he met with the Schleicher County Councilmen. Well Willie is not exactly right about the Citizenry having to adjust to the FLDS Church presence because several congregants of that cloistered sect have been forcibly removed to the Texas State Penal System and more appear to be likely. Seems Willie blames the Judicial System for teachings, beliefs and specific actions initiated by his own sect that has led to arrests, charges and convictions. Willie proclaims that ‘sexual assault’ is a victimless crime yet every convicted member is being given hard-time in a real jail cell, seems rather disingenuous to describe it as victimless. Innocent children being born into a covert fanatical sect bent upon felony conduct seems rather victimizing to me. How about the priesthood members that were asked to take ‘Child Brides’ knowing full well that disfavor, being shunned and ordered to worship from afar followed any man foolish enough to say ‘No’ to the prophet, bishop or church leadership. How many FLDS members were given the boot to establish Warren’s perfected flock? Effective ownership and control of the UEPTrust has fallen into the Court and no viable means are at hand to gain back control even though a considerable effort is being made and at a great expense to get back something that was carelessly lost. Seems this Holy War of Warren’s making hasn’t gone well and the endgame is predictably beginning to be surmised.

    Winston Blackmore’s take on all of these events, seems to hold true that it can’t bode well into the future to continue with a failed strategem, flawed leadership of ‘Answer Them Nothing’ and Warren’s ‘One Man Rule’ dictum.

  431. Sibling solidarity in a polygamous community in the USA: unpacking inclusive fitness
    Journal Title
    EVOLUTION AND HUMAN BEHAVIOR
    Publication Year
    2000
    Author
    Jankowiak, W
    Group Author
    Source
    EVOL HUM BEHAV
    Volume
    21
    Page
    125-139
    Here is the reference to the academic journal article.

    Article No
    DOI
    Document Type
    Article
    Subject Category
    SOCIAL SCIENCES, BIOMEDICAL

    This pilot study explores the degree of solidarity felt between full and half siblings who are raised in a Mormon Fundamentalist polygamous community. The community under study is unique in that, at the level of official culture, it actively promotes full and half sibling solidarity through an ethos that strives to downplay genetic differences in favor of a harmonious family living together in one household. This community is an ideal cultural setting in which to examine the suitability of inclusive fitness theory for understanding the factors that promote family cohesion, sibling solidarity, and rivalry. Our main question becomes: is the degree of sibling solidarity a manifestation of genetic closeness or a natural byproduct of emotional closeness that arises from being raised together? We found evidence for more solidarity between full siblings than between half siblings. Our data suggest that, despite the force of religious ideals, and notwithstanding the continued close physical proximity of half siblings in the polygamous family, there is a pronounced clustering of feeling and affection in the polygamous family that is consistent with inclusive fitness theory.

    Here is a tidbit
    Financial support and babysitting are highly valued services to Angel Park residents. The lending of money is a critical index for measuring degrees of emotional closeness. Given the community’s subsistence needs, money is always in short supply and who lends money to whom is a powerful index of closeness. In a survey of giving and lending practices over the course of an individual’s lifetime, only 8 of 39 individuals acknowledged giving money to a half sibling. For everyone else (n = 31), money was deemed a precious gift reserved only for full siblings with whom you have developed close bonds. A confidence interval for proportions is significant (95% CI: 0.66 to 0.93, p < .05).

    Married siblings overwhelmingly preferred to ask younger full siblings rather than younger half siblings (between ages of 12 to 18 years old) to babysit their children. Seven of 8 individuals asked a full sibling to babysit for his or her family, while only one individual asked a half sibling to babysit for his or her family. A binomial test revealed that this difference is significant (p < .001).

  432. Judith

    Thanks for your support. It’s nice to know that someone else gets it.

  433. HHG

    Thanks!!

    Weird Science.

    But then what did they expect, running their little experiment out there in the desert, inbreeding down to Polygamist Down Syndrome.

    And people are still human, despite all that keep sweet mantra they foist on each other pretending it will serve as their emotional Prozac.

  434. Time for a little PSA from Carolyn Jessop for context.

  435. Ron, I understand your point and Boots point, you both have good thoughts. Ive not had to deal with government agencies about this problem, nor have I had doors of LE slammed in my face, because I cared about underage children being sexually abused. So I can understand Boots thoughts. Just as you being an attorney, I understand what your saying to. But, it all boils down to the fact we are all on the same side, that of children.

  436. DD,

    Exactly.

  437. Brooke has a new piece on the SLT

    http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_14095066

    Utah high court grants flds request for emergency hearing.

  438. http://www.filmstew.com/showBlog.aspx?blog_id=1601

    Separately, producer Diana Davis has a letter of intent from Michael Madsen to play the lead role of a businessman and the endorsement of Flora Jessop, who as a 16-year-old fled the infamous Colorado City polygamous community. Cathedral City weaves its narrative around the idea that Phoenix tolerates fringe polygamist communities because of their ability to provide cheap construction labor and city project bids with ample room on the ledger for profitable corruption.

  439. The Utah Supreme Court agreed today to hear a petition for emergency relief brought by members of a polygamous sect after a lower court judge ordered documents sealed in a property trust dispute and refused to hear sect members’ objections to the sale of trust assets.

    The order, signed by Justice Ronald E. Nehring, sets a deadline of Jan. 4 at 5 p.m. for responses to the petition filed by attorneys for members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    The order also extends the trust’s right to repurchase heifers sold from the Harker Farm in Beryl, part of the United Effort Plan Trust, until a ruling is made on the petition. That sale was to be final on Dec. 31.

  440. Taking a break from what I’m doing to reiterate that Warren Jeffs is a conniving wicked little man.

    And those poor dumb suckers who participated in illegal marriages with him…shame on them.

    Fools.

  441. I’ve put together a long article on the the YFZ temple. It helps explain what it is all about and their efforts to build it. Included is an interesting story about Warren’s secret formula for cement. See: http://flds101.blogspot.com/2009/05/flds-101-history-temple.html

  442. Oh yeah…and the men who bought favor by giving away their underage daughters…shame on them, too.

    And the mothers…

  443. Interesting film concept, Boots. I look forward to its release.

    With or without Michael Masden.

    But with…I’d better keep those thoughts to myself. 😀

  444. Twist, you on a rant? LOL I have a theory about all the commotion with filings for Flds. They need the money, they have filed for a new Trust in Texas, and by golly they need to sell off some more of UEP in order to keeping their Elite Ranch goin.

  445. Speaking of films, does anyone know when the film version of ‘Escape’ is slated to be released?

  446. Yeah, that was my version of a rant, dd1.

    Think I’ll give my mind, heart and soul a break and go read about Warren’s Secret Squirrel Cement.

  447. HHG,
    I have read the article which you cited previously. Again, we see the striking similarity between clinical findings in the Muslim and Mormon polygynous family structure.
    Your study is consistent with the findings in Islamic polygynist families.
    Children generally speaking do not perceive their half siblings as members of their family. This was demonstrated in numerous articles by Alean Al – Krenawi, who analyzed the drawings of their families created by young children of polygynous marriages.

  448. Miele, all I can find are the usual pre-production notices about “Escape”. Nothing current.This from Variety, posted on 11 June 08
    Katherine Heigl Plans Escape

    Variety says Katherine Heigl (27 Dresses, Knocked Up, “Grey’s Anatomy”) will star in and produce the feature film adaptation of “Escape,” the best-selling memoir of Carolyn Jessop, whose testimony helped convict polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs.

    Relevant Entertainment and Como Court Productions acquired the book.

    I haven’t found anything more current. I didn’t see the movie listed on the Como Court Prod page.

  449. mc1199 – Thanks.

  450. FLDS101 — thanks for your articles. keep them coming. They’re great!

  451. i agree flds101

  452. It looks to be one heck of a year for the FLDS. A watershed year, or rather, a moneyshed year.

    How are they going to buy the Berry Knoll, Harker Sacred Cows, and pay taxes and attorney fees?

    Hopefully the Supremes will see the handwriting on the wall and rule to divy it up, and not litigate it to zero.

    On the other hand, what do I care?

    Seems they deserve to lose it all anyway.

  453. Izzat you, Warren?

  454. Ok, to set the record straight from the posts about other sects:
    The people in Humansville, and stockton MO are a collection of Zittings broken off from Centennial Park and Laubs, breakoffs from AUB.
    The “United Latter-day Church of Jesus Christ

    Flock: 100-200

    Locale: Mostly David County, UT but also some in CA, AZ and WY.

    Extracurricular Beliefs: Polygamy; Law of Consecration; Excludes black men from the priesthood. They split from the FLDS group during while Leroy S. Jenkins was prophet”
    Makes no sense. I guess they mean Leroy Johnson? The Kingstons are primarily in Davis County, but they broke off in 1935 when Leslie Broadbent died.

  455. Nah, twist, sounds like duane likes your handle, or your scare the jeebeelzebub out of them.

  456. Thanks for the corrections and additional information, oncebitten.

    Pretty sloppy work on the part of whoever compiled that stuff and the same goes for whoever labeled the folks in Polk County, Missouri as AUB on the Wikipedia entry.

    I still think “Extracurricular Beliefs” is a humourous way to put things.

  457. so chinga aside, if there are FLDS member that refuse to take ownership of their own home and are “forcibly” evicted from UEP

  458. ooops hit return before finished, so…

    “forcibly” evicted from UEP owned homes and number in the thousands, then that is thousands of really stupid people and they go where ever they can afford to go. If they are too stupid to take the opportunity to own their own homes then too bad!

  459. $6,000 to own a home? Not bad if you ask me….Seems like all the photos show lots of large nice new vehicles. Sell a vehicle….

    Not getting any sympathy from me …. in my area the average home cost is at least 10x the $6000. Also if you take the $100 occupancy fee and divide into 6,000 you are talking about 6 years of rent … a bargain

  460. That’s assuming that your figures are accurate of course

  461. Wow looks like duane stayed up late thinking up new handles

    “twisted, chinga, chong”

    It must be boring over on Biles and the Hugo McEgo sites.

    But actually, the funniest thing I’ve seen all year, and this being the last day at that, is Cupcake asking Bill

    “What is a Dyke, Bill, and why art thou so obsessed with them?”

    Well, perhaps thats a tie with the Hugo McEgo self emoliation rant and love letter extravaganza between himself and his wifes Church.

    Bill, Cupcake and Hugo stand up, you share 2009 Annual Tin Foil Hat award!

    duane, you win the “Cupie Troll” prize.

  462. She’s just pretending to keep up her girl scout image. My money says she curses like a sailor when she’s caught in bad traffic.

    Betty

  463. ….and how unsurprising that ‘concerned’ shows up at the same time as a duane sock puppet does. Gee, we’ve never seen THAT before .

    Guys, I know you don’t agree with us, but really, you know we aren’t STUPID, OK?

  464. Betty

    If you read closely, concerned points to the folly of leaving a home offered at such a cheap price.

    They might leave on the grounds they dont want to live there just to spite themselves, but financially, there is no better deal.

    I read those posts as supporting the court and giving the homes to the people so at least the smart ones arent held hostage to the whims of the PFFFFT doode in prison.

    And it looks like ching chang chomg duang got deleted by admin.

  465. It’s too bad Duane had to go get himself banned. I didn’t agree with him completely but from time to time he raised some valid points.

  466. I’m your huckleberry Al.

    Name a valid point made by duane.

  467. DD,
    Where is that article about Kristyn Decker? I know her and would like to read it.
    Thanks!

  468. Here is the article on Kristyn Decker.

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=481&sid=3030012

  469. Her sister Lucille is now married to Merril, but since all her children were grown, she probably didn’t go with the group leaving the ranch.

  470. I just found the article interesting, because Id never seen it before,, hell who knows where anyone is!

  471. It’s too bad Duane had to go get himself banned. I didn’t agree with him completely but from time to time he raised some valid points.

    Alinusara10 said this on December 31, 2009 at 9:34 AM
    ***********************
    Your such a two faced nacho Alinusara!!! Grow Up, Get Real, and stop being a sockpuppet!

  472. Sorry DD but when you stoop to name calling you lost the argument.

  473. Buddy, its not name calling, its TRUE! I just call it like I see it.. Now run your balls back over to Medveckys site, and whine to him!! LOL

  474. Oh, sorry, I forgot, you have no balls, no integrity, no ethic, Id say your pretty much lacking in every area!

  475. This is a great explanation the Mormon missionaries are using to explain polygamy.

    “The church, at one time, did practice polygamy, just as they did in the Bible in ancient times,” said Ryan. “God has a purpose for all things. And whatever that purpose is, he reveals it to his prophet. And the prophet spreads that amongst the followers of Christ. There was a time when the [Mormon] church practiced it [polygamy]. But when the time came that God’s purpose didn’t need it any more, he told the prophet at that time that it should be done away with.”

    I got a great laugh from that! What LDS PR spin!

    Read the entire article here:
    http://www.spartaexpositor.com/articles/2009/12/28/news/doc4b38b37eacc33963010119.txt

  476. Hey Al, I called myself a name, still waiting for you to foist upon us whatever great wisdom of duane you feel that might make him worthy.

    Your Huckleberry,

    Stamp

  477. Buddy, its not name calling, its TRUE!
    ————————————–
    Please stop lying to these good people.

    Sock puppet may refer to:

    * Sock puppet, a hand puppet made from a sock
    * Sockpuppet (Internet), an additional account created by an existing member of an Internet community
    o WP:Sock puppetry, Wikipedia policy on the act of using an alternative account, typically to evade a block or other sanctions

  478. BTW that saying is from the flick TOMBSTONE spoken by Val Kilmer.

  479. IRT the plethora of legal action lets take stock of the situation.

    What are the things that the FLDS hold dear?

    1) Their ‘religion’

    2) Their money

    3) Their land

    (Family ties? Not so much. Their women and children arent even as sacred as those cows out in Beryl anyway)

    So what happened here with Warren?

    1) Their ‘religion’ – Warren proved himself a False Prophet, and that the rest of that FLDS ever changing fantasy is false – Thanks Warren! No one else but you could do the job so well!

    2) Their money – Warren has made short work of it, it burns in his presence. And no, thats not a burning bush. Its the food off the table of little children. Warren is the “Black Hole” into which the largest transfer of FLDS wealth has ever fallen into.

    3) Their land – Warren himself damned the biggest half, the Crick, and put at risk the rest. He sold Four million worth of UEP lands and had a grand party, presumably with porn flicks, attorneys and Cadillacs, maybe not all together at once or in that order but – – —WHOOSH– – you get the message folks just the same!

    And some people are still “stuck on stupid” thinking Warren is Bruce’s fault?

    TOO FUNNY!

    And here I thought smoking crack was illegal. But would that stop them?

    HELL NO!

  480. Hey Al, I called myself a name, still waiting for you to foist upon us whatever great wisdom of duane you feel that might make him worthy.
    ————————————————–
    Sorry Stamp I didn’t mean to ignore your question. I’m not sure atm. I could look it up but why bother? Since what I think of Duane’s posting is solely an opinion and obviously your opinion differs.

  481. In Al’s defense, AFAIK, he hasnt been a sock puppet, but yes in that post he defended one.

    As it turns out the biggest one out there. I got an email saying duane used at least 10 different sock puppet names recently, such as occassionally anonymous, chong, chinga, twisted, itt, mit, wtexan, among others.

    But like John Lester, he needs but open his trap and he is recognized by all.

  482. The last thing I want is to hear Alinusara rehashing duane’s annoying arguments. I think that would really be worse than hearing from duane, although I must say Alin has never posted anything outright crude.

    Betty

  483. Hey Al, I called myself a name, still waiting for you to foist upon us whatever great wisdom of duane you feel that might make him worthy.
    ————————————————–
    Sorry Stamp I didn’t mean to ignore your question. I’m not sure atm. I could look it up but why bother? Since what I think of Duane’s posting is solely an opinion and obviously your opinion differs.

    ——————–

    True, that, however there isnt any lack of his posts for you to rifle through for some lost gem of wisdom.

    Basically he defends them so they can molest their children in peace. Not a whole lot of worthiness in that position.

    Remember the Tony Alamo!

    175 years, thankyouverymuch!

  484. Stamp about alin & sockpuppets. I for one have noticed differences in persona in its writing abilities so I’m less certain than you that there’s only one person behind that name. I suppose that would be a sort of insideout sockpuppet?

  485. HA HA HA

    Oh yes indeed, I remember those days. Its like they took turns blogging, from first wife down to the last wife, back again, but I think Al took over now.

    Very inside-outish. And what would Hugh say, not using his real name or whatever. I could post some of Hughs rants and transpose Alinasura’s name in place of Texasbluesman, that would be really funny!

  486. At least his are amusing and not annoying.

    Betty

  487. From FLDS101 new article on the FLDS temple it says:

    “The lowest level, basement, would include a baptismal font. The font would be used to perform both baptisms for the living and the dead. The FLDS decided to start doing proxy baptisms for the dead as described in their Doctrine and Covenants.”

    Now THIS is really scary to think that not only might the LDS baptize me into their church after I die, but the FLDS might too.

    YIKES – please don’t ever let me die!

  488. Anonymous, I wouldnt worry about that,, since everyone that doesn’t belong to FLDS, are gentiles, and heathens.. Im the latter, lol

  489. HHG and DD,
    Thanks to both of you for answering my question about the articles you cited and providing them for me.

  490. If we are going to be nominating folks for “the best of 2009” I want to nominate my favorites for the year.

    Best heroes: Terry Goddard, Bill Richards and all of the other good folks in the Arizona Attorney General’s office get my vote.

    For the man with the most perseverance of the year, I nominate Bruce Wisan.

    For the best weblog of the year I nominate this one.

    For the most FUBAR person of the year I nominate Willie Jessop.

  491. Anon

    Add to that, the great effort of the State of Texas, Greg Abbott, Eric Nichols and all team members. I’m good with the Jurys too.

    And poor Barbara Walther, she doesnt deserve all that heat, but she is handling it superbly IMHO. There are others too numerous to mention who deserve praise.

    Year 2010 will see emerging and strengened heros in this struggle to abolish abuses against women and children.

  492. So ex-FLDS policeman, Rodney Holm’s son and namesake got arrested Tuesday night. His mug shot doesn’t look like an obedient FLDS member – he has a goatee and rather long hair.

    You can see his mug shot here:
    https://news.washeriff.net/bookings/

    I wonder if he is now a “Lost Boy”?

    HOLM, RODNEY HANS
    Birth Date: 03/05/87
    Address : 4107 JESSICA MARINE ST., Las Vegas, NV
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    22:00:00 12/29/09 Linton, Brian WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    COMMITMENT COMMITMENT-COURT ORDE BM WCJ7 0.00 [No Payments Made]

  493. Stamp,
    You are absolutely right.

    Maybe we should do nominations by state.

  494. Warrens gotta win something.

    “Tin Foil Testimonial of the Decade”

    Sound about right?

  495. He started off with a Bang, and after several spits and sputters crash landed in a water closet.

    With steel bars. The Cell,BlockandSteel Kingdom.

    So soon, too.

  496. If he was born in 87, he is no longer a boy, lost or otherwise.

    Betty

  497. My computer is up and running again and soon I’ll get my profiles straight and I won’t be Anonymous anymore, nor will my pictures keep changing every three minutes. Yeah!

    Betty

  498. Will 2010 be the Year of the Sacred Cows?

    Secret Cement and Heifers Gone Wild.

    What a way to end the year.

    I’ve quit asking if this stuff can get any weirder.

  499. Twist,

    Who knew that the chattel property of choice in the FLDS would go from Girls to Cows Gone Wild!

    With a dozen or so men in prison, they ought to have enough cows to go around – finally!

  500. I nominate, the Texas Rangers!! The good guys!! And Ms Natalie Malonis for her perserverence, and Carolyn Jessop and Rebecca Musser for standing Tall and Keeping their cool under pressure.
    I nominate Brooke Adams, for not being able to see the forest for the trees, and Judge Denise Lindberg for standing her ground on Law, and Judge Conn, for hoping this will all just POOF and go away, so he doesn’t have to make any HARD, JUST decisions.

  501. I vote this site the BEST for documentation!
    I vote Medvecky’s sight as the trashiest, most racist!
    I vote Texasblueman the most clear in explaing laws.
    I vote the SLT and Deseret News as the most “so so” news sites. lol

  502. DD

    You rang the bell on that one!

  503. There are also a lot of folks contributing and commenting, too numerous to mention, but they keep the conversation going and I feel its positive regardless that there are disagreemsnts.

    This is indeed a complex issue, but with commenters keeping it lively, like Twist, DD, Ron, TBM, Granny Toad, cement, once bitten, curious1, LadySadie, chemist, Catwhisperer, Rattle, TexasConnie, Greetings (we miss you) Betty, Proud Texan, Rebeckah, assorted anons, and so many others and even Al.

    In the new year I hope there is a good resolution that gives the FLDS their own homes and that they can find peace and a lawful way to live so they can be a secure parent for their children.

    Its tough that some are going to prison, but that should serve as a red flag to the rest of them and hopefully they will realize that living lawfully isn’t as difficult as it seems.

  504. OK to be fair to duane I found this reasonable post in a long note, so here is the point that he made that hits home IMO.

    And its been cleaned up so its not dirty.

    Basically, it agrees with and acknowledges Winston’s points of Warrens failures, but said in his own words

    Its on the brookie blaugh about Winnies rant on Warren.

    ======================

    Duane:

    snip –

    “the infighting, splitting of families, exing of men, boys and even girls who misbehave (deleted), etc… if they want to remain FLDS members then give them the chance to “repent from within” instead of tossing them out.

    Instead of competing to be the most “righteous” or “perfect” group, the fundie Mormons need to focus on unity, forgiveness, and realization that attempting to achieve “perfection” is a losing proposition as no one is or will ever be Perfect.”

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2009/12/winston-blackmores-prediction/#comment-46257

  505. I would love to wish everyone a wonderful New Year and a safe and abuntant 2010. May we all come to some understanding of each others beleifs and opinions. May we cling steadfastly to our own convictions. And may God, not man be the judge of us all.
    Thank you for your wisdom and enlightenment on this vast subject,
    lil ex plig kid :~)

  506. Thanks ex plig kid, I hope the coming year brings peace into your community.

    I kind of think that if the SCOU makes a decision and the trust is eventually liquidated to benies, that there will be a release of stress and peace will reign.

    If it goes in the wrong direction and lawsuits continue ad naseum, there will be nothing but greif for the community.

    So on that end I wish them the best of luck and that this will result in better lives for them.

  507. Stamp said: Warrens gotta win something.
    “Tin Foil Testimonial of the Decade”
    —-
    Rats! I should have bought Alcoa [AA] stock earlier in the year! Thanks to the Tin Hat Society, it went from $4.97 a share to $16.12 a share! Note to self: call stock broker first thing Monday morning!
    Happy New Year all!

  508. ex plig kid, Happy New Year to you also. Although we may not see eye to eye on many things, I think everyone here cares about others, especially children. I don’t have to believe as you do to care about you, or any other person.

  509. For Christmas I made tin foil hats for all the kids.

    They seem so much brighter, that I am making them wear them to school starting next week so they can get awesome grades!

  510. Happy New Year to all posters. Even though I don’t get to post often, I do read regularly. Thanks to all who have answered my questions and engaged with me on a few discussions. Blessings to you and yours!

  511. HAHAHAHAHAAH

  512. OK,

    Those good folks out at the Crick need to loosen up and enjoy a good old fashioned New Year celebration.

    Guess the year?

  513. Betty,
    Even though the Holm boy is 22, he is still probably naive and immature. I have found that even the ones in their mid-20’s have the social skills of young teenagers.

    I guess it is the social isolation, or starting to work at such a young age, or lack of typical schooling, or all of the above.

    The “plig” kids I have worked with have all tended to be about 6-8 years behind in their mental and social growth compared to kids from mainstream society.

    I don’t mean to insult anyone by saying that, but it is what I have found in my experience.

    Therefore, even though the Holm boy 22, I imagine he acts like a 16-year-old. So that would qualify him to be a “boy” IMHO.

  514. Hint

    That was filmed when Rulon was der Prophet.

  515. Happy New Years Everyone! I wish all of you a safe Holiday, good Health, and lots of Love!

  516. anon

    Some time soon I’d like to chat with you offline on that. Next year ha ha.

    By his age, I had two children and was in escrow to buy a house, owned two vehicles and a motorbike.

    1200 miles from my parents with no help from them.

    That said, I understand there are some serious problems IRT social aspects with young folks coming out of that community.

    Its not just a shame its a crime.

  517. I understand what Anonymous is saying,, I mean look at Merrianne, she is 14 and she acted like a 10yr old

  518. Happy New Year Everyone !

  519. Happy New Year!! May each be blessed abundantly, and may you each share yourself with others less fortunate than yourselves!

  520. Happy New Year from Whidbey Island, Washington.

  521. UEP and more UEP up on Brooke’s blog, including a pdf of a Year End report from Wisan.

  522. Happy New Year from Eastern Long Island !

  523. My wish and hope for 2010; May all the LDS/FLDS, ‘jump ship’ and abandon the sinking ‘LDS Titanic’ and find freedom through…

    TRUTH.

  524. Happy New Year from Hooterville!

  525. So I am starting the “Best/Worst of 2009 List”

    I think GFNY used to keep good lists, but she hasn’t been around for a while. I miss her and hope she is OK.

    Persons of the Year who are the best Judges:
    Judge Barbara Walther of 51st District in Texas and Judge Denise Lindberg of 3rd District in Utah.

    Worst Judge: Steven Conn of Mohave County, Arizona

    Best Attorneys General:
    Greg Abbott of Texas and Terry Goddard of Arizona.

    Worst AG: Mark Shurtleff of Utah.

    Best Attorneys:
    Natalie Malonis of Denton, Texas and Zack/Jeffs Shields (package deal) of Salt Lake City, Utah.

    Worst Attorneys: Mike Picaretta of Tucson, Arizona and Rodney Parker of Salt Lake City, Utah.

    Best Law Enforcement Officers:
    ALL of the Texas Rangers and Sheriff David Doran of Eldorado, Texas. Gary Engels of the Mohave Attorney’s Office.

    Worst Law Enforcement Officers: (ADMIN – how much space do I have?)

    Hildale/CC Marshal’s Office
    Washington County Sheriff’s Office

    OOOPS, gotta run go celebrate New Years.

    Later

  526. Just so y’all can look at some of the BS some of us were dealing with before any of y’all ever came along:

    “In an unusual move, *the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Utah* asked a Nevada federal judge to let three of its lawyers handle the evidence battle.

    Enjoy the flashback~

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,650204272,00.html

  527. “Children generally speaking do not perceive their half siblings as members of their family.”

    That’s funny because my son and daughter are half siblings and they’re devoted to each other — when they aren’t fighting like siblings. 😉

    Ummm, perhaps I should add, no polygamy in our family.

  528. Same here Rebeckah, my daughter and her half brother are absolutely devoted to each other, mess with one you better be ready to face the other.

  529. Rebeckah,
    The reference I cited was from the Muslim medical literature regarding half sibs from polygynous families only.
    Happy New Year to you !

  530. Happy New Year from Seattle, WA !

  531. I got that Susan. I was simply musing about the difference. I imagine it boils down to the fact that my children weren’t competing with each other for limited resources. Granted, as a single parent my resources WERE limited, but they were divided equally and with unconditional love between us all. Interestingly enough, I have half siblings myself and, while our relationships don’t have the same history as that with my full siblings, I actually get on the best with one of my half sisters and very well with a half brother. However, I think our relationship didn’t really develop until we were both in adulthood and we were friends with a slightly stronger bond of having the same mother. (My parents divorced when I was very young and my father got me, my brother, and my sister and my mother started another family which produced a half sister and my half brother.) My father and his wife have a daughter (my other half sister, obviously) that I have almost no relationship at all with, but she’s younger than my own children so there isn’t much common ground between us. I like her well enough, I just don’t know her very well. (Although I will admit to being jealous of the many opportunities she had that I didn’t, from a mother who was THERE to frequent trips around the world.) Still, it’s a fascinating dynamic. I wish there was some way more research could be done. Particularly since researchers don’t reveal identities and the like. The only reason I can think of for the unwillingness to participate in research is that they’re (the men) afraid of what will REALLY be revealed about how miserable the women are.

  532. Happy New Year from Spokane, WA, Anon E Mouse (and others)! 😉

  533. HAPPY NEW YEAR to all from Indiana.

  534. On half siblings
    It may be very different dynamics when the half siblings mothers live together

  535. Happy New Year to all from Texas.

  536. Happy TwentyTen, everyone from California! Rozita a special Happy New Year to you and be sure to watch all the beautiful roses in Pasadena’s Parade.

  537. HHG,
    the research indicates that half siblings of different mothers and the same father in polygynous relationships don’t perceive their siblings born to the other mother as their true siblings, even when they live together. This is not applicable to monogamous relationships.
    I have a Yahoo group which is an electronic library of articles on the topic of the effect of polygamy on women and children. You are more than welcome to join. Here is the link.
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TripleAP/

  538. Kids believe what their parents tell them, both verbally and nonverbally. If the mother perceives the other wives and their children as competition for love and financial resources, then the children are apt to have the same opinion. From what I have read of individual polygamists in the US, also admittedly a small sample, it is true that each mother perceives herself as a single family.

  539. This blog has quickly become my favorite. It has people drom just about every spectrum, and I enjoy the frequent parrying. As a former flds, and having family and friends still in, it’s a subject that I feel a need to understand from others viewpoints.
    Happy New Year, everybody, and heres to success in 2010

  540. Happy New Year to all from West Texas.

  541. @Anonymous 8:19 AM :
    In most other cultures, each woman in the polygynous relationship sees herself as the head of a separate family, and so do the children apparently. See Manee Yang’s masters degree thesis (on Christian Hmong polygamist’s children in the midwest) on the topic, as well as Alean Al – Krenawi’s article (Muslim polygamists in Israel) on the topic.

  542. Once Bitten,
    I am interested at some point in performing a research study on the perceptions of children of FLDS polygynous marriages. This study would be performed via anonymous surveys, using standardized psychological testing instruments. I would need assistance to identify those subjects who are willing to complete such anonymous surveys, at some point in the future.

  543. Susan, I’m agreeing with you. You don’t have to keep hammering.

    Betty

  544. That sounds like an interesting study. Good luck with the idea of getting anyone but apostates to participate and/or be honest in their answers.

  545. Thanks Susan, and Boots. I liked the old news on Warrens arrest and trial. Yes, this thing was in full blown destructo mode well before the YFZ rescue and arrests.

    YFZ is just the latest chapter, though a big one.

    The FLDS bomb blew up in their faces.

    OBTW talking about the new year – this summer will mark Warrens 4th year in incarceration.

  546. So 4 years of incarceration and still never seen a day in prison? What’s up with that Utah?

  547. ON tv last night, they showed Forbidden Love, with a correspondent Dawn something. She visited a family in Centinnel Park and then went and spent the day and night with Moroni Jessop in a Trailer with his two wives and all their children..
    It was very interesting…

  548. Seems Moroni is on the bottom of the Elite, lived in the middle of nowhere, in a pig sty, he called a home. Of course the house in Centinnel park was huge, very fancy, and had 10 bedrooms. There were 3 wives and 16 children. The first wife was hesitant to talk to the young reporter, but finally did. She was very resentful that she had lived with Boyd for 17yrs as his only wife, only to have him bring home a second wife, younger, and then a few years later, an even younger wife.

    Cant say I blame her!

  549. i know canyou, but he’s got to get around to all his trials for his bad deeds before he can see actual state prison time. i’m thinking he’ll find texas county prison much different from the one he’s in now, especially if he’s in angelo.

  550. Susan, perhaps Mary Batchelor or the folks of the Safety Net can help you find participants for your study. I’m guessing you’ll have more luck with the Centennial Park folks than with anyone in the FLDS. I’d love to read your study when it comes out so keep us informed, okay? 😀

  551. I’ve heard inmates would prefer seving time in a prison rather than a county jail. In prison there are more opportunities, a job, and privileges etc.

    So if Warren is being held in County jails…me thinks he’s doing some hard time.

  552. Anyway, for Warren Jeffs: any custody is good custody.

  553. ANY time is hard time, sometimes it gets really hard though, Maddoff just got his ass kicked badly in prison, and Jeffrey Dahmler was murdered in prison too.

    To Utahs credit, he was indeed sent to Draper and spent some time before his little road trip to Arizona where his attorneys seem to want to drag out the trial as long as possible. Since he has been on suicide watch and quit eating, having been force fed up his nose with a rubber hose a few times, I gather that life there isnt the style he’s used to.

    Add to that, a report from a witness who saw him in court at his last appearance, noted his state as “catatonic”.

    He must really be choking on all the humble pie he is served daily.

  554. Humble pie and no conjugal visits. Ouch.

  555. Draper prison where Warren went, and will likely spend more time, is the place where Ervil LeBaron committed suicide (an inside source tells me he also left a note but the official line is heart problems – yeah after only two years)

    And also those murdering Lafferty brothers blood atonement plygs in prison for murder. Warren and them could compare notes in bible class.

  556. No holy scribes and/or comfort wives to observe (or whatever)his “heavenly sessions.”

    No “gardener’s beds” in the style and comfort to which he was accustomed.

    Only the guards and security systems and lights that never go out completely.

    And a sink and a toilet.

    Home, sweet, home…whether it be in prisons or county jails.

    Keep sweet, Warren!

    No matter what.

  557. Yeah that must have been quite a shock when the deputy said:

    “Sorry Warren, ya gotta check your comfort wife at the front gate”.

  558. I found the answer to the wayward FLDS who are looking for a place of refuge, uninhindered by US or UN laws.

    “(CNN) —

    Building a home near a moon crater or a lunar sea may sound nice, but moon colonists might have a much better chance of survival if they just lived in a hole.

    That’s the message sent by an international team of scientists who say they’ve discovered a protected lunar “lava tube” — a deep, giant hole — that might be well suited for a moon colony or a lunar base.”

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/space/01/01/moon.lava.hole/index.html

  559. not to mention your porn videos and tracfones.

  560. One thing he has been able to retain is having a driver everywhere he goes.

    Of course, his new drivers don’t make regular confessions to him or give him tithes and they probably don’t refer to him as Beloved Uncle Warren.

  561. To all the list buddy’s, a wonderful , safe new 2010, from snowy , cold Michigan.

  562. Happy New year from Windy and semi-warm Texas too.

    And twist, they probably don’t follow his nocturnal emissions for their locations either.

  563. Yeah and it seems,, he’s gone from STEAK, to bologna sandwiches,, no wonder he bangs his head of the cell walls. lol

  564. And instead of 3 wives massaging him at night, he has to use the old hand! LOL

  565. Well he can still keep it plural.

    Rosey Palm and her five sisters.

  566. HAHAHAHAH 🙂

  567. don’t forget sister palm too.

  568. Happy New Year from Texas. The real home of the Cell O’Steel kingdom.

  569. BINGO Miele

    I been workin up on that, you nailed it!

    Cell’OSteel Kingdom!

    Coming soon to a plygger perp near you!

  570. Happy New Year to all

  571. “Jeffs does not qualify for indigent representation, and Smith said church donations are financing his defense team that includes Richard Wright of Las Vegas and Mike Piccarreta of Tucson..” [whaaaaat? dude didn’t have a salary and assests of his own? He just taps into the chruch fund? He’s better than Madoff]
    “Jeff Brown, deputy commander of the jail, said Jeffs is isolated from the rest of the inmate population and closely monitored.”
    “He does a lot of pacing, a lot of reading and a lot of praying,” Brown said.” [yeah, but he’s not praying to JESUS…he’s still praying to Joseph Smith.]

    “Piccarreta agrees that pretrial preparation has been exhaustive.[$$$] Piccarreta, however, is building a defense that big money flowing from a former FLDS member who is trying to take down the church is possibly fueling the prosecution of Jeffs and civil litigation against the FLDS.” [yadda, yadda, yadda.]

    “[http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/jan/01/jeffs-awaits-arizona-trial/]

    Warren – Set your people FREE.

  572. Who cares if big money is flowing from a former FLDS member to fuel litigation against the FLDS?

    It’s not fueling the prosecution — that would be the States of Arizona, Utah and Texas.

  573. Go Texas, Utah and Arizona!!!

    Pic, go back to your corner and sit quietly like a nice boy.

  574. Regarding the show last night on TLC about the Centennial Park group, it is my understanding that the participants thought that the show would NOT be aired in the US – only in England.

    I have heard they were pissed when it was aired in the US.

    Diane, Boyd Dockstader’s 1st and only legal wife got rather emotional when Dawn Porter spoke with her about Boyd’s taking on more plural wives.

    She was shaken up and crying during the interview.

    What does that tell you? She was camera shy? NO. She was hurt. Deeply hurt by it all.

  575. Rebeckah,
    No disrespect, but Dr. Susan would be totally wasting her time interviewing Centennial Parkers for her study.

    They are “cut from the same cloth” as the FLDS. They were all the same group 2 decades ago. But, we ALL know there IS NO abuse in the CP group. It magically disappeared, so maybe Dr. Susan should try to speak with them.

    And the Safety Net or Mary B sending people Dr. Susan’s way ????

    That would not turn out to be a scientific study, that would turn out to be pro-polygamy farce in the making.

  576. Actually, Anonymous, a good researcher can ferret out the truth through effective questions. Such as the one tying sibling closeness to a willingness to ask siblings to babysit or loan money. One doesn’t have to come out and say, “Are you miserably unhappy in your plural marriage?”. So I think they’re still a viable source of data, although the data is sure to be skewed somewhat, you’re right.

  577. Stamp – I read where you wrote it it last night, and laughed all night and day. HT to you, my friend.

  578. I watched the TLC Special on polygamy on New Years Eve.
    It is interesting that Moroni’s eldest daughter was asked if she wanted to be a plural wife – and she could not give a straight answer.
    I noticed also that Diane, the senior wife of Boyd, was crying when describing her formerly monogamous marriage and its subsequent conversion to polygyny.

  579. Polygamy is evil in my book. Even when all involved in it were adults when they chose it, even if they weren’t indoctrinated to believe in it, it just causes too much pain. There’s no possibility for true equality in a group dynamic and people get hurt. Yes, what people do in their own lives and in their own homes should generally be their own business, but that doesn’t change my view on polygamy. As for children being raised from birth on to accept it? I think it’s past time America got with the program and stopped allowing parents to do such things to their children. Freedom of Religion should NEVER trump a child’s basic human right to develop his or her thinking, reasoning and evaluation skills. They (in America at least) should be getting medical care — COMPLETE medical care — regardless of their parents’ religious insanities. Perhaps some of our lawmakers would like to take a look at some Canadian laws regarding this? After all, their religious crackpots don’t get to kill children on religious principle. Perhaps there are a few other laws which could be created and/or enforced to protect the children too? The only way to truly wipe out this kind of abuse is education, education, and more education. It may take generations, but if the children are actually taught, more and more will make emotionally healthy choices and these kinds of religious abuses will fail and fade away. (In my humble opinion.)

  580. big money flowing from a former FLDS member who is trying to take down the church is possibly fueling the prosecution of Jeffs and civil litigation against the FLDS.”

    …………………

    Isn’t there a poster on Brooke’s blog who is constantly railing that Dan Fischer is “spending millions” on lawyers to bring down the FLDS?

  581. Stamp and Miele your take on Warren’s brand of heavenly reward was very funny but given Warrant’s recent expose` on his UEPTrust conduct change his heavenly brand to “Sell O’ Steal’ Kingdom?

  582. As far as I know Rebeckah, the vast majority of children from polygamist families meet and exceed national, state and local expectations when it comes to education. I would suggest you put your energy in increasing expectations across the board whether families are monogamist or polygamist in education so no child fails to have the tools necessary to be a successful adult.

  583. Yes, what people do in their own lives and in their own homes should generally be their own business, but that doesn’t change my view on polygamy. As for children being raised from birth on to accept it? I think it’s past time America got with the program and stopped allowing parents to do such things to their children.
    ============================================================
    You want parents to stop teaching their children to have tolerance for those living alternative lifestyles?

  584. Yes, what people do in their own lives and in their own homes should generally be their own business, but that doesn’t change my view on polygamy. As for children being raised from birth on to accept it? I think it’s past time America got with the program and stopped allowing parents to do such things to their children.
    ============================================================
    You want parents to stop teaching their children to have tolerance for those living alternative lifestyles?

    Geez, I hate it when I agree with Al-in. Part of parenting is indoctrinating your children. Society can never have any control over what parents teach their children. Seems to me that people like Mao and Stalin tried, but you guys see how that turned out.

    As I told Stamp, I’d love to solve global warming. However, there are many things that are simply beyond our control.

  585. Al

    Polygamy isnt an alternate lifestyle, sorry, its a felonious one.

    Guess what happens to children raised by drug dealers and are used to help sell drugs.

    Oh, those drug dealing kids dont mind, its all a victimless crime too.

    Or how about those crazies who pimp their children for money, how is that different than pimping them out for CellOSteel Kingdom Brownie points?

    Oh in the latter case they kiss off the child at age 12 to the head pedophile, and only get the child back if the said pedo daddy goes to prison.

  586. Yeah that must have been quite a shock when the deputy said:

    “Sorry Warren, ya gotta check your comfort wife at the front gate”.

    Not as big of a shock as when the big guy on the cell block decided to make Warren his “comfort wife.”

  587. Ron

    HA HA HA

    And here we were told Warrens knees were sore from praying!

  588. Al

    Polygamy isnt an alternate lifestyle, sorry, its a felonious one.
    ==============================================================
    You do know don’t you Stamp that at one time interracial marriages was considered felonious?

  589. Ron

    It really is a big can of worms. People might thing its cool to look the other way if the polygamists behave themselves, well aint it sad the children are dragged into it while society fiddles their fingers.

    If the States took the laws seriously and enforced them, (hey – how come I cant buy me a slave this weekend, why IS THAT not allowed?) than maybe these chldren wouldnt be forced to follow this abusive trail of tears.

    We dont allow slaves, why the hell do we allow abusive polygamists to keep on keepin on hurting societies most vulnerable, the children?

    Remember the Tony Alamo!

    175 years

    thankyouverymuch!

    Enjoy the “CellOSteel Kingdom, Tony! You too Warren!

    See y’all on “Americas Most Righteously Busted Ass” on TV!

  590. Al

    Seems child sex is OK in Thailand. You and the FLDS gonna give them a little tourism?

  591. Stamp

    I agree with you and I think Texas is doing a fairly good job of putting a stop to some of the abuse of the children.

    However, there are many things we will never be able to stop. It would be nice if we could stop the FLDS from indoctrinating their children. Heck, noted atheist Richard Dawkins says teaching children religion is child abuse.

    However, unless you want to put an end to Sunday schools across the US and have all the kids go to a camp where they wear black pajamas and receive a little red book, you aren’t going to be able to control what parents put into their kids heads.

    It’s an unfortunate fact of life, but free societies have to tolerate a degree of stupidity.

  592. Sorry Stamp but I was talking about polygamy between consenting adults. Totally different topic then affairs between adults and children beneath the legal age of consent.

  593. Ron

    I realize we cant stop polygamy like we cant stop illegal immigration.

    However there can be incremental things done that continue to make these things tougher.

    For instance, a birth certificate for drivers license, sanctions against employers whom employ illegals, etc.

    The states of UT and AZ unfortunately enabled these abuses much as the Fed enabled illegals.

    The tide is changing and yes I think it makes a differnece, but there needs to be serious action not just throwing money at it with social services and wishing it would go away.

    Al – You seldom have Adult polygamy without the children becoming involved. In the FLDS case, they are used as chattel – sex slaves if you will – for the “so called adults” to barter with.

    You saw that happen in the “Bad Acts” of Keate, did you not read them?

  594. Well suffice it to say, young girls were bartered to that Geezer Keate and he gave some of his own away in turn.

    So yes he joins the group on “Americas Most Righteously Busted Asses”

  595. BTW Ron

    I found the cure to Global Warming Hysteria.

    Read the sniped emails of false prophet scientists who conspire to “Hide The Decline”.

    Reads like a paragraph out of Warren Jeffs dictations!

  596. Stamp

    I suspect you spend way too much time watching Lou Dobbs and Fox News.

  597. In case you missed it Al

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/11/18/keate-bad-acts/#comments

  598. Lou Dobbs? Who dat?

    The “Hide the Decline” leaked email as the others are all over the news – though perhaps not on CNN or NPR.

    Say I know you gotta sense of humor there somewhere! Enjoy!

  599. “As far as I know Rebeckah, the vast majority of children from polygamist families meet and exceed national, state and local expectations when it comes to education.”

    As far as I know they fall far short. For evidence I would point to the blatant misspellings of even simple words by FLDS supporter postings. Your evidence would be…?

    “I would suggest you put your energy in increasing expectations across the board whether families are monogamist or polygamist in education so no child fails to have the tools necessary to be a successful adult.”

    I would suggest you put your energy to actually becoming informed rather than posting in a state of perpetual, willful, ignorance — but we both know you won’t, don’t we?

    “You want parents to stop teaching their children to have tolerance for those living alternative lifestyles?”

    I want parents to stop teaching children they HAVE to live those lifestyles or suffer inhumane consequences. What they teach is clearly the opposite of tolerance for ANY alternative lifestyle and you know it.

    You realize twisting my words like that, in addition to being incredibly sleazy and obnoxious, is quite deceptive. So much for your many claims to a) not attack others and b) be honest. Of course you lied through your teeth when you claimed to be Southern Baptist, so your lies are no shock to me. I just like to point them out so newcomers aren’t decieved by your pose.

  600. “You want parents to stop teaching their children to have tolerance for those living alternative lifestyles?”

    I know what you’re saying, Ron, and I know it’s a bit of an impossible dream of mine. However, it can and should be realized in part. In particular, children should be guaranteed (in America at least) a good education that focuses on critical thinking skills. Homeschooling needs strong federal guidelines and a LOT more oversight. Children should NEVER be allowed to die because of their parent’s religious convictions and parents who allow it should do prison time for it. Yes, it’s a dream but I believe some of it is doable.

    I’m a little surprised that you would agree with any part of Al’s claim that I said I was against parents teaching “tolerance for alternative lifestyles”. I’d really love for anyone to show me where the FLDS teach tolerance for anything that doesn’t fit their narrow interpretation of “good”.

  601. Can someone enlighten me on the following: After the jail cell visit when Warren disclosed to his scribe, in a rare moment of honesty, that he was not a phophet and was in fact a bad guy…

    so..what has happened since? Has Warren just gone on…business as usual and dictating orders? did the peeps not listen or pay attention? or are there others in charge now?

  602. Warren took it all back and said he was really the prophet.

  603. I sure don’t know, JD. I’m thinking that until Warren “stole the keys” claiming to be the prophet it was supposed to have been Willie Timpkins / Jessop.

  604. Warren contributed his confession to STRESS!! LOL or a TESTING by GOD,, but a couple of days later, took the confession back

  605. Moroni Jessop is a member of an offshoot group started by a disgraced council member of the AUB.
    As far as education, I “graduated” Alta Academy, (Jeffs school) and if I don’t say so myself, have been found of above average intelligence 🙂 of course, I DID LEAVE the CULT

  606. Once bitten

    I bet if Warren had made you listen to three or four more tapes he woulda snagged you forever!

    Bwa ha ha!

    Just joking, but dang, looks like the koolaid stuck with a bunch of them.

    Denial – aint just a river in Egypt.

  607. You didthe wise thing oncebitten!!

  608. Oncebitten:
    The tragedy is how many highly intelligent kids where forced to enter the labor force or got married off to have babies, instead of
    pursuing their dreams of more education.
    Oncebitten, it must not have been easy, but I am glad you are ‘out’.

  609. JonDana

    I once engaged Al Holm aka Pliggy in a discussion about how they can engage in the cognitive gymnastics in order to justify someone who supposedly is so perfect as to have a direct line to God saying they’re not the prophet.

    Needless to say, if you really want to “believe” something, you’ll go to whatever means are necessary to support your predefined belief. In Pliggy’s world, it was “stress” the made Warren say those things. Now how in the world you can believe everything else the guy says as the gospel truth yet assign things that fit outside your predefined world view as “stress” just boggles my mind.

    I guess a lot of people deserve gold metals in “cognitive gymnastics” when they want to support a pre-defined world view.

    I guess zealots can justify anything.

  610. Once Bitten :
    Medical research on the children of polygamists indicates that their IQs are equivalent to the IQs of children of monogamist relationships, however, the children of monogamists have higher levels of academic achievement when compared to the children of polygamous unions. It is a shame that these children of polygamous relationships cannot reach their full potential. Congratulations on your successful departure from the sect.

  611. I am happy to hear that Moroni Jessop got his “edjumacation” (al a Stamp). He is wise to gain an education.

  612. oncebitten said:
    Moroni Jessop is a member of an offshoot group started by a disgraced council member of the AUB.

    Would that “disgraced council member of the AUB” be Joseph Lyman Jessop? Edson Jessop’s father?

    I’m just trying to piece it all together and mean no intrusion or disrespect.

  613. Many groups are out there practicing polygamy other than the FLDS and even Mormons, most don’t engage in underage marriage. Strictly enforcing polygamy bans across the board is going to raise all kinds of issues. What would constitute probable cause? How do we distinguish between polygamists and polyamorists?
    The argument that children are invariably harmed in polyg/poly relationships will be trashed in the courts, those same arguments were make in past crackdowns against gays. Anita Bryant’s campaign against gays in Florida was called “save our children”.

  614. and your point is?

  615. My point is that you cannot paint all Polygamists as child molestors just as you cannot paint all Jews as greedy con artists. There are many who entered into polygamist relationships as adults and not even mormon.

    Warren Jeffs retracted his claim that he was not the prophet. If he had stuck to his assertion that he was a false prophet, his followers would have accepted it. Since he later reneged on his self denunciation and said it was a “test”, his followers accepted it, it is what he says last that counts. No cognitive dissonance there.

    Nice video on global warming, I saw it already and nice to see it posted. Global warming is now a proven hoax. If climate change believers still insist global warming is real in spite of the obvious fraud and fakery behind it, are they guilty of cognitive dissonance?

  616. “My point is that you cannot paint all Polygamists as child molestors just as you cannot paint all Jews as greedy con artists. There are many who entered into polygamist relationships as adults and not even mormon.”

    Yet another Strawman Argument. No one is painting “all” polygamists as anything in particular. There is plenty of evidence of the increased negative outcomes for women and children in polygamy. That doesn’t mean every child raised in a polygamous environment has a bad experience. It does mean that as far as the good of society is concerned, it is better to outlaw polgyamy than allow it. Society is impacted by the poor choices some of its members make. Your argument is specious and does not address the issues clearly at hand on this blog — a pattern one finds often in those who wish to justify a system denying women and children of basic human dignity and rights.

    As for global warming (not a topic of this thread, but whatever…) please prove your statement that it has been “proven” to be a hoax. I actually pay attention to scientific reports and I’ve yet to see “proof” at all. In fact, I see a lot of controversy and debate, but no hard evidence either way yet. Please, feel free to bring some facts to the discussion.

    Oh, and a handle of some sort would be nice too. Generally those who post as “anonymous” are cowards or trolls hiding behind anonymity to make drive by attacks on the internet. I’m tired of playing with them. Even if you can’t be bothered to register or log in, you can pick a handle and use it as a signature at the bottom of the post. All the anonym-asses run together after a while.

  617. @Anonymous 1/3, 1:25 AM.
    “The argument that children are invariably harmed in polyg/poly relationships will be trashed in the courts, those same arguments were make in past crackdowns against gays. Anita Bryant’s campaign against gays in Florida was called “save our children”.”

    Response : There is abundant medical literature which indicates that the practice of religious polygyny has negative effects on women and children, in terms of mental health, physical well being, academic achievement, and self esteem. I suggest that you read it.
    There is also abundant medical research that children raised by two gay parents have mental health and educational achievements which are consistent with the outcomes of children of monogamous, heterosexual couples. In fact, the children raised by gay parents have a lower incidence of criminal activity, anti-social behaviors, and juvenile delinquency than children raised by heterosexual parents.
    There’s some food for thought for you.

  618. Anyone who says global warming is a hoax is not looking at the evidence.

    Example: For 23 years now the University of Hawaii have been studying the tides on the little island nation of Tuvalu. The tides have been rising an average of 1.2 mm per year for the past 23 years. Now a little over 3 centimeters may not seem like much, but the highest part of the islands of Tuvalu are only 4.5 meters above sea level.

    Still don’t believe, look for yourself:

    Before picture of glacier

    After picture

    Like any complex issue, there are a number of questions and competing theories about what’s happening. It doesn’t change the fundamental fact that glaciers and ice caps are melting.

    Anyway sorry for the diversion, but yes, polygamy negatively impacts women and children and global warming is real.

  619. O my heck this planet has always had periods of glaciation and warmer periods of interglaciation, since long before humans existed. We had this same go-round back in the 60s-70s, did you know? Same as it ever was. Back then they decided or some did that we were instead going into global cooling. Then the yammer shut down for a few decades.

    It would be better for children that they be kept separate from grownups playing polygamy.

  620. While I am guilty of bringing the video of AGW fraud onto the board, and though I bring yet another link, I dont want to turn it into another huge debate.

    I would agree that we are in a warming trend – I had heard as far back as the 1970’s that the Sierra Nevada glaciers were receding and yes there is proof of that. ( I think they have been receding pretty much ever since they carved the 2000 foot deep canyons out of sheer granite)

    However, to stack false data to generate fear among the public just to justify your theories is so – Warren Jeffy.

    The Scientists were caught in hacked emails detailing efforts to “Hide the Decline” in Global temperatures.

    IMHO if you give false prophecies you are a false prophet, if you are a Scientist with false data you are.. Lying through your teeth.

    The thought of throwing 100 Trillion dollars at AGW and using the money and what you spend it on as an earth thermostat is absurd.

    Yes the weather changes on macro and micro scales but mere mortals cannot change that. (beyond reasonable adjustments such as planting tree islands in parking lots etc)

    Remember, Wisconsin and the Sierra Nevada’s were shaped by Ginourmous glaciers.

    Oh, the Wisconsin Glacier was a mile thick and as a side note carved the Great Lakes.

    Wall Street Journal on ClimateGate:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704888404574547730924988354.html

    IRT polygamists being “not all bad”, well, not all illegal immigrants are bad either. Over the decades many have become excellent citizens and contributed greatly to our country.

    Anyone who mixes it up in society at large will find this out.

    That said, the influx has become overwhelming, and for some reason attracted a bad element, and they import crime, drugs, kidnapping, gangs and murder.

    The situation is 150 times larger than the domestic polygamy issue both in numbers and crimes.

    And just now in the past 10 years are states and the Fed getting serious about addressing the issue.

    Some states are now requiring birth certificates for drivers licenses. As driving is a priveledge, this is reasonable.

    If you are here illegally or cant follow laws, what right do you have to tool around town endangering everyone else?

  621. OK Granny Toad we said about the same thing but you did it in less words ha ha ha.

  622. I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest Admin starts thread #22 — over six hundred posts! We sure talk a lot. 😀

  623. Oh, and what’s happening when legal-wise again? Does Raymond have an appeal coming up or something? Is jury selection for the next man who sexually assaulted a child starting soon? I’ve lost track over the holidays.

  624. Thanks Rebeckah

    Yes, #22 is now open, please continue there.

    And yes we can drop the Global Warming discussion, as we all know Willie Jessop is the main cause of Hot Air anyway.

    Thanks,

    – ADMIN

  625. “When the FLDS began trying to participate in the litigation, the trust was already in debt to Wisan and those lawyers, a million and a half dollars,” said Parker. “Now he wants to sell our farms and dairies in order to pay himself.”

    OUR farms and dairies Rod???? When did you become a member of the FLDS instead of just they’re lawyer?

    Read the article here and see the video:
    http://connect2utah.com/content/fulltext/?cid=69152

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