Open Discussion #20

Continued from Open Discussion #19

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on December 18, 2009.

622 Responses to “Open Discussion #20”

  1. I had a distinct feeling someone would prove me wrong. Willie should have straight out said if anyone is involved in an underage marriage I’m not aware of it.

  2. Al doesn’t care about the truth anymore than his FLDS buddies do, all he cares about is the religious “right” to marry and knock up young teen girls.
    ==============================================================
    Nuh uh! You know me enough by now to know that I would never encourage illegal behavior no matter what religion a person belongs to. Sides I would encourage all minors to wait until at least 20 or so to have children no matter what age the sexual partner is just for health sake.

  3. How is it Willie can afford to be so outspoken? Unless the statute of limitations has run out on his ‘marriages’? or he didn’t partake of underage girl marriages?

  4. Willie hangs around Medvecky to much! LOL

  5. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/18/san-angelo-area-jail-bookings-1218/
    Theft — 8

    Drug — 4

    Driving while intoxicated — 4

    Public intoxication — 2

    Assault — 1

    U.S. Marshal hold — 3

    Disorderly conduct, abusive language — 2

    Do we know 2 of those that are being held under U.S. Marshal hold?

  6. This case against Allen Keate involved a under-aged female who was impregnated by a FLDS Priesthood member. Sexual assault occurred by this pregnancy and Willie R. Jessop denies their is a victim? Sorry, Willie maybe in your YFZ Raunch children can be raised to have felony(s) committed against them but now the Texas Rangers are on your trail and your hard-bitten ways and outlaw lifestyle will be arrested and brought to Texas Justice. Every Rocky Mountain State can clearly now see what Willie means by his “Good Neighbor” policy which is we’ve moved into your county under false representations, we’ll commit felonies until raids, arrests and trials are pursued and neighbor that acts against this rogue lawless behavior is obviously politically motivated.

    Give it up Willie your lies, illicit lifestyle and Hidden agenda have been exposed for every neighboring State to see what’s at risk and that your underworld sex trafficking sect intends neighborly terms dictated by your FLDS Church. This isn’t about anything beyond a rogue sect of religious fanatics that have decided to criminal conduct themselves until arrested, tried and convicted.

    No one but the Prophet and his cohorts believes his quote of, “I say, in the name of the Lord, there is no underage marriage in a priesthood, in celestial marriage. God has the right to rule. The Lord had me take these two underage girls on purpose, to show that I and we, this people, are with Him, with God, not fearing man” spoken by Warren S. Jeffs in 2003.

  7. I don’t appreciate anyone saying awful things about the disabled. Willie said it on the tape about Abbott, and Medevecky has stated over and over about Abbott and Walther who is also disabled.
    Just because your legs no longer work, doesn’t mean your brain doesn’t. The AG of Texas and Judge Walther both have gone by the law, regardless what the naysayers tell you.
    They Hollared discrimination about the jury, and there weren’t enough hispanics, well Folks, this time there were hispanics, blacks and white that sat on that jury.
    The jury went by the evidence presented them,,, and made their decision.

  8. Alinusara, you talk out both sides of your mouth! You say one thing here, then go to other sites and say just the opposite. AT LEAST most everyone who posts here, is on the same page, about what they believe as far as illegal activity goes.
    You are a JERK!

  9. Abbott is paralyzed because a tree fell on him when he was a kid.

  10. I had a distinct feeling someone would prove me wrong.
    —–
    Of course you did, because some already had proved your wrong, on the exact same issue, two weeks ago:

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2009/11/wall-v-uep-trust-trust-v-steed-et-al-steed-v-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-46109

  11. They will view these convictions as self-fulfilling prophecies. No one in the FLDS is likely to wise up. They know they are committing felonies but have been told to expect persecution. They are fed a lie that they have to break man’s law to fulfill God’s law, and they must be willing to pay the price (i.e. jail time) in order to prove themselves worthy of the celestial kingdom.

    We can’t hold them to the standard of rational-thinking people because they are steeped in a cult mentality. Keate is a prime example of sheeple — didn’t really want to marry an underage girl; just did it to prove himself worthy of Warren, the infallible mouthpiece of God.

    As for Willie, every cult (or criminal enterprise) needs an enforcer, a thug willing to keep the sheep in the fold, by force if necessary, and to appear before the cameras to castigate the rest of the world. Willie’s not particularly well-suited for the second duty but I imagine he excels at the first.

  12. caJim,

    I know only of the one child for the victim. What is your source on a prior child?

  13. Here are a couple facts for you, Allan Keate by his OWN words knew that the girl was a child, he even put it in writing in a letter to weenie warren she complained of his new bride acting “silly” and this was causing a disruption with the OTHER children in his house.

    Allan Keate by his own actions and weenie warren documented it knew he was raping this child. This child said NO to having sex with Allan Keate so Allan Keate took her to weenie warren and weenie warren ordered her to submit to the rape by Allan Keate.

    No getting around it, Allan Keate by his own admission, purposely, willingly and with forethought RAPED a child.

  14. Yes I know Ron, and Judge Walther had polio as a child, she has to wear braces on her legs… It’s just insulting to me, as many kids as FLDS have that have fumarase disease they blatantly name call others with disabilities names.
    Its ignorant and STUPID>

  15. DD – I listened to the Willie clip and about all he said was for Abbott to “roll around.” It didn’t seem to me that he was picking on Abbot for being handicapped.

  16. Ron, thats your opinion. I have mine.

  17. I disagree, Ron. He also referred to Abbott as “he sits there …” He did not have to use the term “rolling around” — he could have expressed the same thing in a lot of different ways. IMO he called attention to Abbott’s disability unnecessarily, and I think it was on purpose.

  18. Well, my opinion of Willie is generally negative but I still don’t see or hear any evidence he’s picking on Abbot for being handicapped.

  19. Guys you’re not talking about a very erudite person here….

  20. Keep on rantin’ against Greg Abbott, Willie, and we’ll elect him as governor one day.

    Or the Senate. Or the Texas Supreme Court.

    He can pretty much write his own ticket.

  21. Guys you’re not talking about a very erudite person here….
    ——-
    That is an excellent point.

  22. LOL, Ron. You do have a point. “Erudite” is not a word I would apply to Willie. Neither is “articulate.”

  23. Well I was talking about a liar, willie the man who creates fraudulent corps to hide money behind.

  24. Where is Teresa Steed? Her child? Her child’s father?

    Whose infant was that?

    Who knows where Teresa and her baby are, but the father is Merril’s son, Nathan Carter Jessop.

  25. I am wiling to bet Allen Keate and raymond jessop et al will be left to rot, while the flds continue to pour money into appeals for Warren

  26. oncebitten, if Flds members are smart, they will STOP giving money for Warren,,, and use it to start their own lives.

  27. dd, we can only hope they pull their heads out. It seems to be happening very slowly among those in the lower “caste” but not in the elite familys

  28. I would like to see Flds individual families OWN their own homes, they have put some much time and money in, so they can’t be threatened to have them taken away by the Priesthood.

  29. No one but the Prophet and his cohorts believes his quote of, “I say, in the name of the Lord, there is no underage marriage in a priesthood, in celestial marriage. God has the right to rule. The Lord had me take these two underage girls on purpose, to show that I and we, this people, are with Him, with God, not fearing man” spoken by Warren S. Jeffs in 2003.

    ================
    Ouch! I have scanned and seen a lot in the dictations, but I have not seen every last sentence, and somehow missed that one. Getting children caught up in one’s vendetta against the government is just plain ouch!

  30. Texas Twister Merilyn Barlow Jeffs Keate was first married at 14 years to LeRoy Jeffs and before assignment to Allen Keate on May 5, 2005. This is taken from San Angelo Standard hearing report ‘Live from the Courthouse’ article of 19 May, 2008. This was, also, referred to by Prosecutor Erik Nichols in his post Allen Keate Press conference when he mentioned that said victim had been previously married and then re-assigned to Allen Keate.

  31. She was married and reassigned, but she didn’t have a baby with Leroy, her first husband. Her first and to the best of my knowledge only child was the one she had with Keate.

  32. That is what I have, PT.

    caJim,

    I’m aware of her first marriage and when she married LeRoy Jeffs, but no child.

    The sources you gave do not mention a child by her first “husband”.

    Do you have a date of birth on the child?

    I have been all through CPS documents filed with the courts and have no indication of a child born to the mother prior to the child she has with Keate.

  33. Goodwin said Keate had also betrayed the trust of his own daughters in having given them away in “spiritual” or “celestial” marriage, two of them at 15 and one at 14, to older men. The youngest of the three went to Jeffs.

    The prosecution showed a bit of a document attributed to Jeffs that read, “I informed them about their daughter … belonging to me. They went home and brought her right back.”

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/17/keate-trial-state-rests-its-case-in-punishment/

    Now does anyone NOT understand why Allen Keate was convicted?

  34. Don’t forget several of these same men will be tried again for Bigamy

  35. In honor of the Pharisee’s post titled: (and since Blues has us picking songs)

    33 Years. That’s Life.

    That’s life
    That’s what all the people say
    You’re marrying a tweener in April
    Shot down in May
    But I know
    I’ll change my tune
    When the appeals court rules, rules in June.

  36. LOL , Ron.

    Why does Willie refer to Keate in the past tense?

    Ron, Willie was taking a shot at Greg Abbott. That’s what sociopaths do when people draw firm lines and refuse to move them.
    He’s raging. Then threatening (we’ll be here long after..)

    If you listen carefully, what he’s saying is, “We can’t buy Abbott.”

  37. Wonder what Big Chief Warren Jeffs is thinking about all this? Maybe starvation diet again?

  38. DD, Maybe he’s thinking time to go to Vegas again for some hookers and blow before they transfer me to Texas?

  39. “Nuh uh! You know me enough by now to know that I would never encourage illegal behavior no matter what religion a person belongs to. Sides I would encourage all minors to wait until at least 20 or so to have children no matter what age the sexual partner is just for health sake.”

    I know you well enough to know you are deceitful. I have no doubt that you are firmly in the “The FLDS are being persecuted for their religion.” camp AND that you don’t see anything wrong with FLDS men grooming young girls for pretend marriages and then impregnating them while they are underage. You’ve been caught several times in saying something opposite of what you said earlier. So please don’t presume that anyone “knows you well”.

  40. someone needs to tell wee willie – enough with the religious persecution angle. a religion isn’t persecuted when it is arrested for breaking the law. religions have to follow the same laws as everyone else, there are no special guidelines for religions to break the law.

    if he has any questions, i’ll be happy to explain it to him face to face.

  41. i think warren’s glad he’s in AZ and hasn’t been transfered to Texas.

  42. Alinusara,
    I am glad that you now think girls should wait till about 20 before getting pregnant.
    About a month ago, you said age 16 was ok for pregnancy, till I pointed out that epiphyseal (growth) plate ossification (closure) occurs at age 21 in females. Science should dictate when it is appropriate for girls to get pregnant, not the “prophet”

  43. We know willie doesn’t miss a meal, you can tell by the way he looks.. Maybe he was so grumpy last night, cause he didn’t eat supper yet, LOL 🙂

  44. If you listen carefully, what he’s saying is, “We can’t buy Abbott.”

    Miele said this on December 18, 2009 at 3:29 PM

    Or, more to the point, Miel, they cannot buy Texas. Unlike Utah and Arizona, and a lot of little FLDS girls she ain’t for sale.

  45. Ron in Houston,

    As an aside, I had plenty of time to observe Mr. Keate as he sat, sometimes all alone at the defense table.

    I was surprised that there were moments as I watched him, I actually experienced feelings of compassion for him. He looked very pensive and I can only imagine the internal torment he was plagued with through this whole ordeal. He has lived his whole life in an area where men and women are permitted to do what they do with impunity.

    I agree, like most FLDS members he is a victim, too. It doesn’t excuse him from his crimes but he was a victim of Warren Jeffs, Utah, Arizona and ultimately, imo of Joseph Smith.

  46. Boots

    You probably know how I feel about tin foil hat theories. However, your post is very interesting. If I wasn’t so demanding for people to “prove it” I’d probably accuse Judge Conn of being in the FLDS pocket.

    In any event, Texas is a large enough state and folks like Abbott, Walther and others have such large constituencies that I highly doubt the ability of the FLDS to buy influence.

    Maybe you’re right. Maybe Willie is upset that he can’t “buy” Greg Abbott.

  47. Boots

    I highly suspect that Keate is well into the a serious case of cognitive disconnect.

    Like you said, for all his life they’ve had it the way they thought it “should” be.

    I suppose that sometimes reality intrudes on our concept of how things “should” be.

  48. Boots, very insightful post. I agree. Keate is obviously a victim, but also obviously a fully grown man and accountable for his crimes. I too feel compassion and even sorrow at the waste of a life. It is so very sad how many lives have been damaged and destroyed because of a lie perpetuated by one man so many years ago and fed, noursihed and nurtured by other amoral men.

  49. They are all victims of that crazy cult…started by Joseph Smith. I know my family had 7 generations of gullible followers. And I take great pride that I, the family rebel, didn’t pass it on. While my family didn’t live in a compound, or as FLDS, the indoctrination of that Mormon cult was still powerful and the peer pressure growing up in Utah overwhelming.
    Those teachings created sexist jerks out of all five of my brothers.

  50. JonDana – I hadn’t had any experience with Mormonism until the flds came to Texas. In researching about the ‘second anointing,’ hoping against hope that that was the reason for that ghastly white bed, I ran across the exmormon.org bulletin board.

    Out of curiosity I started reading their postings. It’s astounding how much pain is there. It was really eye opening.

    If you say it’s overwhelming just living in Utah, I can’t imagine how it is for women inside the flds, although I think Carolyn gave us a glimpse.

    But on the other hand, each one who went on TV and said they were there by choice and happy as clams, yet also let their adolescent girls be given in celestial marriage, well IMHO they should be indicted.

  51. Thank you jondana for your perspective. A good many readers have never lived or experienced Utah, that makes it hard to have any concept of people so different from mainstream “We the People”. Tney likely have no concept either that UT has been a running theocracy from inception.

    I’m sorry you got sexist jerks for brothers.

    About “crazy cult” I figured Joe played that schtick to account for his lack of morals, as an excuse for his behavior. I’m thinking BY put up with it for his own reasons.

  52. Don’t get me confused with an apologist. While I’m aware of religious peer pressure, I believe we all have moments of clarity/doubt about what we are taught and a responibiility to self to listen to that little voice.
    I agree, that FLDS women who give their little girls for marriage should be indicted, asap.

  53. JonDana, No I wasn’t thinking of you as an apologist, and if what I wrote came off that way, I apologize.

    Tonight I was just contemplating an older man taking a “silly girl” home and her making his children act silly. But then, she’s supposed to be his wife and their mother, and just how totally screwed up that is.

    You just have to wonder what causes that type of thinking? The kind of thinking that makes people believe what happened out there is right.

    From there, I thought, her mother needs to be with Keate in the Schliecher County Jail tonight.

  54. her mother, nancy johnson barlow is a real piece of work apparently. she’s a granddaughter of leroy s. johnson, a previous prophet. her husband and father of the victim is donald robert barlow allred. he was one of the barlows who stayed in when the barlow boys were exed and for his touble got his named changed to allred.

  55. Oh no, no, no, I didn’t take your opinions in that way…I’m just venting and clarifying my own position. This whole situation, the FLDS, the LDS , no matter…it is all spawn of the same cult.
    I’m just rabid about the huge human rights violations involved.

  56. Solutions? Thats a hard one. These people suffer generations of delusion. FLDS are going to be harder to contain than a Mexican drug cartel.

  57. The father of the girl in Keate’s case, “Bob” Barlow (aka Allred) was charged in Arizona for an underage in the same group as his brother, Terry Darger, Rodney Holm and a couple of others.

    “Bob” was acquitted by a Mohave County jury and his brother was convicted. It was his brother whose name was given to the shelter in San Angelo as the abuser of the teen bride Sarah.

    Heckuva family.

    Who? Us abuse?

    No abuse here.

    “Bob” Barlow and his brother are sons of former mayor Dan Barlow who was exed. “Bob’s” new father is either Jim or Richard Allred.

    Her father took her to YFZ for her first marriage to LeRoy Jeffs as part of the 7-22-2004 teen triple header.

    Sally Jeffs travelled with LeRoy to Texas for the wedding day. The new bride was assigned to Sally to look after. Sally’s children were then to be moved to the ranch. It looks like that was when Sally and her children first made YFZ their home.

    I don’t suppose Sally would like to be on Larry King Live again and give another tour so she can answer questions again?

    No?

    I didn’t think so.

    I see her as another victim, but she has had ample opportunities to have her better angel catch her in moments of clarity and does not appear to have even resisted at any of those times.

    No way should she be trusted with young teen daughters without oversight.

    Her giving away three daughters is as reprehensible as Keate’s betrayal of trust with his daughters.

  58. Evening, wondering.

    Just passing through?

  59. Half the elite of FLDS males? The royalty?

    Who is in charge these days?

  60. Yeah, just doing a hit and run.
    Ultimatly, what happens next? If the FLDS dots all the “i’s” and crosses all the “t’s” with respect to legal marriage, is that the end of it? Or will Texas keep the pressure on by pursuing polygamy charges even if not tainted by underage allegations?
    So many questions?
    Sorry, “Hot Mormon Muffins” is being featured on Nightline right now. Gotta Go!!

  61. I suppose you’all have this site
    http://www.mohavecourts.com/highprofile/highprofileJeffs.htm

    but, I was just wondering about the legal fees involved fighting this. omg. If they are so ‘ordained’ by God…why use up all the peeps money fighting? Why not just save the dough and go down a martyr?

  62. agree, that FLDS women who give their little girls for marriage should be indicted, asap.

    If you ask me, this is the white elephant in the room. As I read the folks on this board, they vacillate between calling the women victimizers and then claiming that they’re victims of their own sort of Stockholm like syndrome themselves.

    If you ask me, they’re the key. The FLDS men are able to keep their power because they find accomplices. The real question is whether the accomplices are co-conspirators or not.

  63. “A pretrial hearing is scheduled for Jan. 7, when the location of Emack’s trial likely will be determined.”

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/18/state-satisfied-with-keate-trial-ready-for/

    Something Waller gets wrong in the article is that he says Warren Jeffs was convicted of rape as an accomplice for transporting a minor across a state line.

    Not correct. One of his convictions was for being an accomplice for performing the ceremony and the other for the instructions he gave to Elissa Wall and Allen G. Steed.

  64. Without the acquiescence of the accomplices, it doesn’t work.

    I can appreciate the PR issues of the crying mamas, but as more information comes out of the trials those shiny objects have lost their lustre.

    Charge them.

  65. Well, wondering don’t let us circumvent your viewing pleasure.

    But you did bring up a good point. Sooner or later a ‘silly girl’ is going to get access to a cell phone, and I believe this whole thing is going to be rinse, lather and repeat. I believe Texas will do the right thing. Again.

    Bigamy is illegal in Texas. If the ‘i’s are dotted and the ‘t’s’ crossed, I guess they’ve got nothing to worry about.

  66. So who can we pressure to get indictments against the pimping FLDS women? Cause I agree, prosecution of the enablers…could break the cycle.

  67. AG’s office is in the driver’s seat.

  68. Uh oh, Ron. I guess an accomplices is very different from a co-conspirator? What is the difference? Maybe that’s a good one for Perspectives.

    I’m with you twist, book ’em. Book the ones who went on TV and lied twice.

    JonDana, a lot of people I know think Texas still has the children, If you can believe that? But they do.

    I can’t presume to anticipate Greg Abbott’s strategy, but from Raymond Jessop’s trial to this one it seems they’ve upped the ante. The “silly girl” thing was just disturbing. Make her comply was even worse. Publicity is what it will take, and I think by the end of this set of trials they’re liable to get it.

  69. I wanted to add, I live in Texas. Our local paper and TV haven’t been covering anything flds, except the initial rescue, but they did cover this one.

  70. Rebeckah: It is so very sad how many lives have been damaged and destroyed because of a lie perpetuated by one man so many years ago and fed, noursihed and nurtured by other amoral men.

    ……………………

    Well said. And how pathetic that the purpose of that elaborate lie is to excuse, allow, and promote male promiscuity.

  71. Publicity is needed much. This issue needs to go viral.

    Matt Lauer from the Today Show was in Afganistan last week telling how the women, post Taliban, are now able to go to school, drive, choose, etc…what a concept! And we’re spending millions for the cause. Now if only….FLDS women et al., had that choice.
    People who have never known indoctrination think polygamy is a choice.

  72. I am wiling to bet Allen Keate and raymond jessop et al will be left to rot, while the flds continue to pour money into appeals for Warren

    …………………..

    They will be “repenting from afar” while their wives and kids get divvied up back at the ranch.

  73. I agree, that FLDS women who give their little girls for marriage should be indicted, asap.

    …………………………….

    “Failure to report child abuse” is an offense, and many of the mothers are guilty of that, but I don’t think Texas will prosecute because of the potential public backlash.

  74. Ironic that the top-of-the heap males tend to have the highest rate of unworthiness to be at YFZ, leaving women and children as those most worthy of being there.

    Of course the women’s worth is their reproductive capacity and nurturing and grooming of the girls who are taught to seek being a mother in Zion above all else.

    The men are treated as expendable sperm donors.

  75. TexasTwist, interesting you should say that. I noticed in Willie’s YouTube tirade, he referred to Alan Keate in the past tense.

    Like, “Oh well, more for us.” Sick-sum b*tch.

  76. One of the sadder things about Keate’s request for “help” from Warren was the question of whether he could keep sleeping with nonfertile wives…..

    Suppose he actually has a relationship nutured over time with his original wife…. maybe what he was really asking was – I don’t want to have a sex with a child, but want to have love with my wife

  77. Her giving away three daughters is as reprehensible as Keate’s betrayal of trust with his daughters.
    —————————————

    Sad part is that Sally still has more at home and now granddaughters.

  78. Texas twister thanks for your challenge on my accuracy of Leroy Jeffs having married and having a child with Merilyn Barlow when she wed at age of 14 years. I readily modify that the record shows they were married but no proof of a child is evident.

    My posts have been modified to reflect this corrected record. Again, thanks for the challenge and highlighting this misstatement of a fact.

  79. “If you ask me, this is the white elephant in the room. As I read the folks on this board, they vacillate between calling the women victimizers and then claiming that they’re victims of their own sort of Stockholm like syndrome themselves.”

    I think they’re both, Ron. I am very sad for these women because they’ve been placed in an incredibly hard place by their religion. But they are adults who are allowing and even encouraging the abuse of their daughters, and as such should be held accountable. Once again, I think the only true answer is that the children MUST be educated and the women at least given an opportunity to be educated. It’s time for some changes in our wishy-washy child protection laws. On one hand they’re vague enough that good parents have found themselves in trouble for basic parenting decisions and on the other hand they allow abuses like the systematic indoctrination of young children that the world is evil and they will die horribly if they join it. (And that’s not even addressing the children who die every year from abusive religious beliefs like no medical care or blood transfusions.) Yes, hold the women accountable, it’s only just, but also, start protecting the children NOW. Get them their educations. Make education MANDATORY. 🙂

  80. Ironic that the top-of-the heap males tend to have the highest rate of unworthiness to be at YFZ, leaving women and children as those most worthy of being there.

    Of course the women’s worth is their reproductive capacity and nurturing and grooming of the girls who are taught to seek being a mother in Zion above all else.

    The men are treated as expendable sperm donors.
    ………………….

    In any cult or dictatorship, the male at the very top only needs enough other males to keep everybody in line, and the males he does keep around have to be faithful toadies. Males who are in any way a threat to his power get the boot.

  81. Alinusara, you talk out both sides of your mouth! You say one thing here, then go to other sites and say just the opposite. AT LEAST most everyone who posts here, is on the same page, about what they believe as far as illegal activity goes.
    You are a JERK!
    ========================================
    Nuh uh! When I agree with something written here I agree. I’m sorry but I’m not going to go to the extreme of listening to and agreeing with one side or the other. If listening to both sides then weighing the facts then deciding for myself makes me a jerk, guess what, I can live with that.

  82. HHG Submitted on 2009/12/19 at 8:35am

    True – Its no secret that such a laison is traditionally taboo- the question speaks of some dissent – a jealous first wife who wants it to continue, or threats from other wives against them for a continued relationship.

    Also taboo is sex after pregnancy has commenced.

    While I am not naive to think any of thses things dont happen, they are certainly points to tattle on and to ex someone on.

    Must be tough keepin sweet when all the fairy tale laws are broken willy nilly.

  83. Well it seems YFZ was to be the Shangrela of Flds. Only the chosen were allowed to move there, the hand picked. Mostly Priesthood leadership men and wives and children. Mostly Jessops, Jeffs, Neilsons, and Steeds, with a keate and dutson thrown in for good measure. Warren didn’t trully trust anyone, not even his own brother Leroy, or One of Jessops sons Ernest.
    Merrill and Barbara Jessop complied to every wish, therefore they were allowed in the chosen few. Hell they had lots of children between Merril and his many wives. It was like trading “kids” to shuffle higher positions in leadership.
    Sick, Sick Sick way of living!! Power hungry people come in all shapes and sizes, and religions.

  84. Question: in his rant, Willie states that Allan Keate served in the armed forces. Is this true? Going by his age, where would he have served other than Viet Nam? Or was he just a desk jockey somewhere.

    This is the first time I’ve ever heard of FLDS men serving in the military. I’m surprised they would be allowed to do so, since that would take them completely out of FLDS control and put them under the jurisdiction of a branch of the “wicked” gentile US government.

    Maybe before Warren and his One Man Rule took over, FLDS men were allowed to serve, I don’t know.

  85. LOL alinusara, You haven’t read ONE fact! You have ignored the documented evidence presented over and over. You refuse to see with your own eyes the truth about something so ugly! Maybe it soothes your mind NOT to know, to stay stupid, to NOT face that this type abuse actually happen in GROUP style.
    I really feel sorry for you in a way. Because its weak people who stay in denial.

  86. anon , yes some of FLDS did serve in the armed forces. Im not sure how many, or where.

  87. I saw it quoted somewhere where Emack “wouldnt wish the YFZ mision on anybody”

    Meaning it was a hellish place.

    Think about it – a high fenced commune, nothing but work, no escaping, no interaction with other family members back in Utah – work work work…. No fun or game time for the kids – familiarity breeding contempt – paranoia setting in –

    Sounds like hell on earth to me, Emack has it right. Maybe he will do the right thing for his people. Yeah those guys are going to prison anyway, might as well turn states evidence and pull the rug from under the BS boat that is floated.

    Willie cant keep it afloat, his lies contradict himself and he is lost in “Alice in Wonderland” and cant get out.

    The FLDS paper back is ripping. By #12 it will be gutted and all the goodies will spill out.

  88. True – Its no secret that such a laison is traditionally taboo- the question speaks of some dissent – a jealous first wife who wants it to continue, or threats from other wives against them for a continued relationship.

    ……………………………

    So basically, over a course of a lifetime, FLDS women sleep alone a majority of the time, and FLDS men never have to sleep alone.

    I’m not even talking about sex: I’m talking about lying in bed at the end of the day, snuggling up to someone you love, talking about life. That’s what my parents and grandparents did into their old age, every night, literally until death did them part.

  89. Not a problem, caJim. Appreciate you looking into it.

  90. The armed service bit was interesting. Shoulda been mentioned before now.

    Yeah, he is Vietnam era doode. Wonder what the rate of signing up for the Selective Service was in shrotcreek?

    How many were drafted? Joined? I kinda think very few.

    onthestreet is a returned viet vet as I remember, now exed but still carrying the aftertaste from the bitterly poisoned flds punch.

  91. Alinusara,
    I am glad that you now think girls should wait till about 20 before getting pregnant.
    About a month ago, you said age 16 was ok for pregnancy, till I pointed out that epiphyseal (growth) plate ossification (closure) occurs at age 21 in females. Science should dictate when it is appropriate for girls to get pregnant, not the “prophet”
    =========================================
    Aye both you and myself agreed that skeletal growth should be complete though I’m not too terribly shook up about 16 year olds and higher.

    Texas seems to be throwing money down the drain.

    “According to the Texas Department of State Health Services, of the 1,626 live births in Tom Green County in 2003, 636, or 39.2 percent, were to unwed mothers. That is five percent over the State of Texas average of 34.2 percent.

    Eighty-four teenagers giving birth are included in that number, and 308 of the mothers, or 19 percent, had late or no prenatal care. The problem does not appear to be abating.

    The 2006-2007 school year saw 100 teenagers pregnant in San Angelo ISD schools, up from 65 the year prior.

    Five of the girls were in 7th and 8th grade!”

    They really need to start educating these young women about proper methods of birth control.

  92. Walton:

    You wanted to know my observations and thoughts. I finally managed to get a fresh blog post up last night on the AAAP blog if you would like to check it out: http://tripleap.blogspot.com/

  93. LOL alinusara, You haven’t read ONE fact! You have ignored the documented evidence presented over and over.
    =============================
    Nuh uh! I read quite a bit those some things I’m more familiar with then others. Remember I was the one who pointed out that Winston Blackmore said the bed was probably for the garderner?

  94. Boots! Your latest post is incredible. Thank you for sharing what it was like to be in the courtroom.

    It is sickening to read about women who are trying to leave the polygamous lifestyle and who are getting little or no support from judges re: custody and visitation.

  95. Before the 80’s lots of men in the flds were drafted, or volunteered including Wendell, Allen, etc. The decorated vetrans were honored at the pioneer day parade as heroes.

  96. LOL alinusara, You haven’t read ONE fact! You have ignored the documented evidence presented over and over.
    =============================
    Nuh uh! I read quite a bit those some things I’m more familiar with then others. Remember I was the one who pointed out that Winston Blackmore said the bed was probably for the garderner?

    ………………………………….

    Alin: “Winston Blackmore” and “facts” are mutually exclusive.

    But since the notion that the special white bed was probably for the gardener is one of the funniest things we’ve seen so far, you are at least to be commended on your sense of humor.

  97. on another note, I just wonder if one of Leroys transgressions, besides being resistant to warrens “creative accounting” was to not consumate the “marriage” to a 14 yr old quickly enough

  98. That would be a failure of obedience and faith, I suppose.

  99. Allen Keate was born in 1952. Males born that year were subject to the draft lottery in 1971.

    More than just one or two FLDS members served during the Vietnam War era.

  100. LeRoy was resistant to Warren’s accounting methods?

    First I’ve heard that.

    What was Ron Rohbock’s sin?

  101. Anon E Mouse,

    Thank you. I’m still on cloud nine;)

    G-D BLESS TEXAS!

  102. Great reporting and commentary, Boots. Your first person account adds a great deal of texture to last week’s courtroom drama.

    I don’t think Randy Wilson’s role is finished. At one time he was attorney of record for Emack and one of the other defendants whose name I can’t recall off the top of my head.

    Again, great post.

    I tried to leave this comment at your blog, but WordPress was being a pita and I don’t feel like messing with it.

  103. Boots,
    I also read your post and am wondering if you have got a lawyer for drafting your proposed law…

  104. Anon E Mouse,
    There were FLDS members who also were enlisted during the Korean Conflict.

  105. twist, wasn’t it emack and lehi?

  106. Yep, that’s right, PT.

  107. i wonder if willie’s wives back at the crik are happy that he’s been spending so much time in Texas. i would be if i were them.

  108. i think that some of these women have been reassigned so much, they may not even know who the father of their children are.

    and since the victim in the keate case only has 1 child, i wonder if maybe she did resist keate at other times.

  109. Both the conviction and sentence barely made tweets on the SLTrib plyg site and blog.

    The best Brooke can come up with?

    “I am going to tour Alcatraz today, which is fitting given current events in Utah, Arizona and Texas. 1 day ago”

    Tweet Tweet, indeed. Keate was cheated out of his rightfully deserved martyrdom.

    The plyg community? “YAWN” evidently.

    Although Willie gave a good old fashioned Priesthoodie meeting rah rah speech, which shows that they still dont get it.

    What he doesnt realize is, the lies they pass around to each other dont stand the smell test when they hit fresh air.

  110. TexasTwist and HHG,

    The legislation has in effect already been written. We tried it in Arizona several times and it was always blocked from ever even reaching the floor. Needless to say it never reached a vote.

    I have given copies to some lawyers and their response was basically a big fat ::yawn::

    Of course, that was over a year ago and I think a few of them may have had a chance to rethink their original highly disinterested positions. I’d like to hope so anyway.

    TexasBluesman, if he’ll ever forgive me for my sometimes over exuberant behavior, would be ideal.

    My best laugh Thursday came from one of the law officers coming to sit with me for a few minutes in the courtroom. He sat down with me, looked around the room and said, “I guess my reputation is ruined now”. I smiled at him, winked and said, “Oh yeah, it’s over, yer toast for sure”.

  111. I’ll take that back, my best laugh of the day was when a friend told me that if they could ever get rid of the FLDS from Schleicher County their idea for what to do with the YFZ Ranch.

    They think it should become a college campus, a joint venture between A&M and BYU.

    We’ll call it “Gig’em Young”.

  112. I have been told that Ron Rohbock was treated like a son by Rulon, and Warren resented him having the access to Rulon that Warren wanted to himself

  113. Alin, Ill not deny we have a problem in the United States with Teen birth rate. Its not just in Texas, but every state. However, reading further you might find, most teens, didn’t get pregnant on purpose. They had ONE boyfriend their same age, or a year older.
    Few teen pregnancies are planned. You are not comparing apples to apples here.
    Flds mission is to have more and more children, that is their main purpose in life. They don’t consider, nor have they ever considered the age of a girl. The girl is assigned, whom to marry, regardless of the man’s age. Flds say its to keep the young girls pure, LOL But, they are NOT legally married to the man assigned. Its a forced procedure all the way around. With the girls parents condoning and agreeing with whoever their daughter is assigned to.
    The statistics also leave out the number of teens who got pregnant by rape, or sexual assault. The stats give overall views of ages, but not circumstances in which teens in the United States got pregnant. Trust me, there are many teens who get pregnant, and keep their children, but have mixed feelings afterwards.
    That being said, I would also let you know, that teens who get pregnant still have schooling, while being pregnant and after their babies are born in Texas. We can all quote stats from somewhere.

  114. Allen Steed? probably just too nice a guy to the outsiders and “apostates”

  115. oncebitten, do you know how much difference it would make in a court case if men who were kicked out of Flds stood up and told LE what was going on in FLDS? Because the only ones ive seen come forward on any court case and testify are WOMEN.

  116. Are do they NOT testify, hoping they will be allowed back in?

  117. I have asked this question several times, and when I do anyone who is xflds, quits posting here. I really would like an answer.
    xflds talk alot about what went on in blogs, but they should have the guts to stand up in court and testify!

  118. I think it would be huge. I’ve been gone long enough that I probably couldn’t help, though. I know a few guys who have left and were public, but they have never been supoeneaed. Like the Rohbocks, some of the Keates, lots of Steeds, and so on.

  119. A lot of the men who were older and had some real knowlege, would be easy to find, if LE wanted their input

  120. I keep hearing that to oncebitten, ” they would be easy to find”. How bout if they volunteered, instead of having to be supoened?

  121. Thanks, oncebitten.

  122. DD, oncebitten and cement have actually answered that before, I believe. Many of them are ready and willing to testify but they haven’t been called by the prosecution to do so. So perhaps you should be asking Ron or Blues why they might not choose to have men testify in these cases.

    Your post on teen pregnancies was very insightful, by the way, and well put. Of course I think that anyone who wants to post those US or Texas stats should be required to follow up with FLDS stats and Polygamist groups in general stats. It’s really easy to fling poo while you’re hiding behind the sofa to avoid return fire.

  123. DD

    “I have asked this question several times, and when I do anyone who is xflds, quits posting here. I really would like an answer.
    xflds talk alot about what went on in blogs, but they should have the guts to stand up in court and testify!”

    ———————————–

    I think its a pretty touchy subject for many reasons – family members and friends being the main deal.

    Yes its frustrating that they dont get involved. But maybe there is more to the stories of the thugs and blood atonement too.

    We know they live in fairy tale land – and the alleys there are dark and spooky.

  124. I volunteered a couple of times, but never went anywhere after being interviewed by attorneys. They know who I am.
    On the other hand, it seems the guy supoenaed to testify in Keates trial was mocked pretty badly here. I dn’t know if it was his choice to be called as a defense witness. Answering a question without offering your opinions is what its all about, right?.. That being said, Allen Keate DID break the law, and in my opinion deserves the sentence he got

  125. Oncebitten, I think the guy who testified for Keates was mocked because he was LDS, not ex-FLDS, so he really didn’t know anything about the religion, and seemed not to want to know. It was as much a reflection of the lack of realistic defense as it was about him personally.

  126. What’s the thing about 39% of unmarried teen pregnancies vs 80-99% of FLDS teen girls’? They’re certainly not married either.

  127. My impression of Roestenburg is that he does lots of business with Flds, since his territory is Utah, Nevada and Idaho. Considering he does millions of dollars of busines on just a “handshake” with Flds (Keate)

  128. Connie,
    good point. The defense in these cases are flimsy at best what with dna and offspring being overwhelming.

  129. And for the record, many kudos to the bravery of Rebecca Wall Musser!!!

  130. I would also like to add , Texas has 23 million people in it! So, the percentage of 92,000 people. I would like to know, where you get your data on how many teens were pregnant in San Angelo at any given date?

    Utah has a population of 2,800.000 people.

    Population of Hildale 1,907
    Races in Hildale:

    White Non-Hispanic (95.9%)
    American Indian (1.2%)
    Hispanic (1.0%)
    Other race (0.8%)
    Two or more races (0.8%)
    Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander (0.6%)

    Population of Colorado City AZ 4,750
    Races in Colorado City:

    White Non-Hispanic (95.7%)
    Hispanic (2.9%)
    Other race (1.8%)
    Two or more races (0.9%)
    American Indian (0.6%)

    Median age of Hildale Utah

    13.4

    Median age of Colorado City AZ
    14.3

    So there are MORE children in those two towns, than adults, many more. when you compare with the state of Utah or Arizona.

  131. Texas had a hispanic population of 12.5 million in 2007, Thats almost half the population of Texas

  132. i agree oncebitten – kudos to Rebecca Wall Musser for having the courage and conviction to testify and stand up for what is right. i hope one day she finds her 2 youngest sisters.

  133. Just wondering why Bile always refers to the FLDS as Mormons on his blog? Can’t be winning any friends with the LDS. Is he trying to make the religion seem more mainstream rather than cultish?

  134. TexasConnie, because the guy can’t see past his rage!

  135. he’s backtracking his previous claim of an appeal having already been filed. it hasn’t. you can check yourself at the 3rd court of appeals website.

  136. Every once in awhile–when I need a laugh–I visit the Mudpucky site. I had wondered about the mis-use of “Mormon” in regards to flds. He just doesn’t care who he misquotes…friend or foe…all are fodder for his hate and discontent.

  137. Yes, my respect goes to Rebecca Musser. She has been very courageous and I am sure this has not been easy on her.
    Looking around it is hard to find such a courageous MAN among the FLDS. It’s the women who have come forward.And Why? My guess is that they don’t want any other women to suffer much longer under the restrains of the FLDS.

  138. mc199, go check it out now. he just went bonkers

  139. Bile doesnt know what he is doing IRT calling them mormons – they dont call themselves that, and as proof I would direct you to their various websites.

    Lawprevailed, fldsview, shortcreek.us etc etc

    Nowhere does it say they are mormons or use that vernacular. They will ARGUE that they are but dont even bother being known by that in any real sense,

    YES boil is trying to give them a crutch.

    Oncebitten, yes the witnesses get some flack, I think Carolyn and Rebecca have gotten their share too regardless they have good testimony – and as they are attacked, turnabout is fair play, Keates witness is weak and wasted the time to fly out but thats all Keate could muster, pretty pathetic testimony.

    The jury made the call, evidently they saw through the smoke and mirrors.

    Its serious business but the FLDS took that road on purpose.

    Its good to see people get out from under their thumb. Thanks for posting, I hope to get to know you better.

  140. I think mudpucky has had a stroke, he is now calling Flds jews, BWMAHAHAHHAHHA

  141. Just wondering why Bile always refers to the FLDS as Mormons on his blog? Can’t be winning any friends with the LDS. Is he trying to make the religion seem more mainstream rather than cultish?

    TexasConnie said this on December 19, 2009 at 5:24 PM

    Cupcake doesn’t seem to mind. She claims to be devout LDS.

  142. Bile doesnt know what he is doing IRT calling them mormons – they dont call themselves that, and as proof I would direct you to their various websites.

    Lawprevailed, fldsview, shortcreek.us etc etc

    Stamp said this on December 19, 2009 at 7:13 PM

    Perhaps the FLDS of today don’t call/consider themselves Mormons, but the Centennial Parkers sure do.

  143. I think some of the LDS-based polygamous groups are now calling/considering themselves to be “Fundamentalist Mormons”.

    I think that is the new “politically correct” way to refer to these people according, to Mary Batchelor and Anne Wilde.

  144. President Hinckley said that there was no such thing as “Funamentalist Mormons”.

    From what I understand the term came about after the big riff between Utah and the United States Government. Members of the LDS Church said they do and they don’t and they do and they don’t when really in a round about way they still do.

    The LDS Church and the members were being watched by everyone. And with good reason. There were a lot of things up in the air, around the corner and with the missing plates maybe even underground. In caves, outside of caves etc.

    One of the big questions that comes into play is the “keys”. Who has the missing keys. The LDS say they have them, Rulon thought he had them, Ervil, Kingston and just about every other off shoot and somewhat connected group says that they have them.

    The answer is in the history. And yet another problem. Some things have been changed this way and that way and told to each other like a gossip line in the country side. From what I can tell the “key” should be held by each person individually.

    Robert Kirby said it best when he wrote an article about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I will find the article. I don’t want to kill his words by writing my own.

    Another problem that surfaces between the LDS Church and the FLDS is the 8 hour meeting. Very interesting details when researching that meeting. And again questions concerning the then President Taylor and what he saw or didn’t see. Visions. I swear everyone must need glasses.

    Supposedly President Taylor said he had a vision and Joseph told them they were to continue the practice of Polygamy. That they would be taken care of and surely their families would be taken care of by others.

    Check it out. Interesting history.

  145. The only link I can find to Robert Kirby’s article is this one :

    http://www.truthandgrace.com/mormonmassacre2.htm

    just about all the way to the bottom.

    For those of you who don’t know Robert Kirby – he is a columnist at the Salt Lake Tribune. He use to be a cop and is a member of the LDS. He can tell a story that would make cleaning a junk drawer fun.

    The whole article is very good.

    But here is the line: “Faith can be a tricky business. It’s a valuable lesson we should have learned years ago. As we commemorate the 150th anniversary of Mountain Meadows next week, we can start by realizing that faith is something we owe God, not other human beings.”

  146. Hey you guys I have a question. Big Surprise. Didn’t Betty say that she didn’t know of any young girls that were married to older men?

    Does anyone know if Betty and Carolyn talked to each other at the courthouse?

  147. Anon. @ 10:23 said this:”Perhaps the FLDS of today don’t call/consider themselves Mormons, but the Centennial Parkers sure do.”

    I had to laugh when I saw “Centennial PARKERS”. Suppose Rod is getting his toe in the door? lol

    imo they all hold hands.

  148. Of course I gave the wrong link concerning Robert Kirbys article. Can’t go back and change it. Sorry.

    But here it is. http://www.truthandgrace.com/mormonmassacre2.htm Just about down to the bottom. Titled:
    Facing the Truth about Mountain Meadows
    by Robert Kirby

    Fixed – ADMIN

  149. Walton, I think Betty said that on that 2nd, totally phony Oprah.

  150. Thanks GrannyToad. Why would she say that?

    Was she there for Raymond Jessops trial?

    Why show up for Keates trial?

    Did she talk to Carolyn?

    I wish they had cameras in there.

  151. Thanks for the link, Walton. I’ve read about the massacre before — quite a bit about early Utah history, in fact. It fascinates me, especially the fact that we’re living the consequences of that history.

  152. Your welcome TexasConnie. I really have enjoyed reading about Utahs history and honestly the history of the LDS. When I read about how tough everyone has it today they should do a quick read of how some of those wagon trains had to keep on moving up and around and thru rock.

    Today there sure seems to be whole lot of waiting for others to move those wagaon trains or move the rock in front of them. jmo

    Nothing wrong with using our own two feet. jmo

    I really believe the answer is in the history. The problem is getting someone to make heads or tales out of it all.

  153. I probably have not right even asking this stupid question… I have been trying to follow the Warren Jeffs story, but am very confused by all. I feel as though I might know more than I really can handle. So all that I was wondering, Is if anyone knows when the next trial is??? My hopes are that by finding out it will get a little stress off my mind. Im also wondering how long he will be in jail. Is 10 years really 10 years, or is he looking at more. Time and Numbers determine a lot.

  154. janice, warren’s next trial at the moment is in arizona, but no date has been set for that trial as far as i know.

  155. I haven’t figured this one thing out – is someone there in AZ playing games, wanting to withhold Jeffs from Texas? His trial is meant to be sometime 2010 in Texas. I am fairly certain that Pic in AZ thinks he/AZ can rule on TX court business regarding documents, that’s amusing.

  156. yes the witnesses get some flack, I think Carolyn and Rebecca have gotten their share too

    …………………..

    Flora carries a gun for protection. The FLDS rage against apostates coupled with blood atonement is no joke.

  157. Janice – the whole Utah/Arizona trials of Jeffs are really side shows. I firmly believe Jeffs will get life here in Texas which is a minimum of 40 years.

  158. I’m in agreement with Ron.

    I don’t believe Warren Jeffs will ever breathe air again as a free man.

  159. Yeahhh Anon, peaceful buncha little house on the prairie farmers my hiney.

  160. Odd Amish with evil intent…..

    GAH!!! . . . I shouldn’t dis the Amish that way!

    Yeah, I think Warren’s days of riding in a red cadillac are over for good.

    His new ride? Paddy wagons.

    His Zion? The GrayBar Hotel.

    Willie? The funniest liar since Jim Baker.

  161. Jim Bakker had Tammy Faye.

    Warren Jeffs has Willie.

  162. I’m looking at a lot of data right now on some FLDS members and all I’m gonna say at the moment is that there were a heckuva lot more underage marriages than their apologists would care to admit and it wasn’t isolated to Warren Jeffs and his YFZ cronies.

    Utah and Arizona have some ‘splaining to do.

  163. Flora carries a gun for protection. The FLDS rage against apostates coupled with blood atonement is no joke.
    ======================================================
    As a firm believer in the 2nd amendment I say good for her. I don’t imagine any specific person of the FLDS faith attempting any harm to her but I suspect someone sympathetic to their problems may try to do so. Heh! Good alliteration.

  164. Utah and Arizona have some ’splaining to do.
    ============================================
    Hehe! Unless it’s an obvious caught in the act sort of deal the taxpayers of those two states are probably more then content watching Texas authorities spend Texas taxpayer’s money.

  165. Me: Flora carries a gun for protection. The FLDS rage against apostates coupled with blood atonement is no joke.
    ======================================================
    Alin: As a firm believer in the 2nd amendment I say good for her. I don’t imagine any specific person of the FLDS faith attempting any harm to her but I suspect someone sympathetic to their problems may try to do so. Heh! Good alliteration.

    ……………..
    Actually Alin, you may be correct on this one, since at least one apologist has publically expressed a wish that a gunman open fire in a Texas courtroom and massacre public officials.

  166. Thanks Anon E. Mouse. I read something to that affect and I remember the incident vaguely but digging it up to reread for context will take some time.

  167. Anon E Mouse:

    Let us not forget that critics of the FLDS have had their, or their loved ones vehicles burst into flames and disintegrate any occupants.

    Fortunately Buster wasn’t in his when it blew up in the driveway of his home in Mohave County but unfortunately Dan Fischer’s son was in his when it blew.

    Neither case was ever solved by LE.

    We all tend to check for fluid leaks and cracked windows on a pretty regular basis now.

  168. Interesting that you find it amusing, alin.

    I don’t find anything funny about anyone getting away with “marrying” 14-year-olds.

  169. Boots did someone try to hurt Buster?

  170. yeah, I’d count blowing up your car as trying to hurt you.

  171. #

    Hey you guys I have a question. Big Surprise. Didn’t Betty say that she didn’t know of any young girls that were married to older men?

    Does anyone know if Betty and Carolyn talked to each other at the courthouse?

    Walton said this on December 19, 2009 at 11:01 PM

    NO

  172. Here is another stupid question… Does anyone who comments on here believe that he will ever get out? Like I said I already know way to much about the background of this all. It sounds as though some of you folk know some of the people you talk about personally. Is that true or am I just misunderstanding?

  173. Thanks Anon.

    Someone really tried to blow up Busters car? Are you able to share any details? Who would want to hurt Buster? Did this happen in Arizona?

  174. I don’t know anyone personally. I have visited with a few people by phone.
    I don’t think we will ever see Warren Jeffs again. jmo

  175. I don’t know anyone personally. I have visited with a few people by phone.
    I don’t think we will ever see Warren Jeffs again. jmo

    …………………………

    For sh*ts and giggles, you can watch him on YouTube declaring that he is NOT the prophet.

    He means it, he means it not. He means it, he means it not. How do the poor FLDS figure out when, exactly, the good Lord is speaking through Uncle Warren.

    “This is not a test” LOL

  176. I prefer the San Angelo Newspaper currently, but I want to work with one to get the 450 Warren Jeffs audio cassettes I have linked to the web, so viewers can decide for themselves what Warren did or did not say.

    Per Willie Jessop, when Utah State Senator Ron Allen introduced and passed the Child Bigamy bill SB146 in 2001, FLDS/Colorado City Mayor Dan Barlow was interviewed and Mayor Dan stated the bill would not effect the FLDS group, because the FLDS did not take underage brides. We know 2001 was a bumper crop of young wives for the FLDS, making anything Willie says now suspect.

    Just help me find a worthy newspaper that can make Warren’s audios public and we can quit debating what the FLDS were taught, what they believe and what Warren said. Armed with facts, the public can then decide!

  177. Who have to you visited with by phone? If you dont mind my asking? Im just really curious. The more I find out about him, the easier it will be for me to understand how someone can stand behind him and his teachings. Like I had said before time can determine a lot. I meant it, for it will effect my life as well.

  178. This is probably the “Money Quote” from Jeffs, as he says:

    “You can tell anybody who wants to read this message and all who want to see it, even to Apostates and Gentiles, that they may know that I have been a liar, and the truth is not in me.

    I am not the Prophet, I never was the Prophet. ( backtalk “You are the prophet!”) Just a minute! – the lord is still dictating…

    This is not a test, this is a revelation from the lord God of Heaven, from his former servant who was never his servant…”

    etc etc…..

  179. Janice: Who have to you visited with by phone? If you dont mind my asking? Im just really curious. The more I find out about him, the easier it will be for me to understand how someone can stand behind him and his teachings

    ……………………………………..

    They are told they must be in perfect obedience to him or they are damned. And since they have been in religious, cultural, and educational isolation for generations, they have nothing else to believe in.

    This certainly speaks to the human desire to believe in SOMETHING ~ a desire that can be manipulated by those with grandiose visions of personal power.

    The Taliban have followers who will commit suicide in exchange for 76 virgins when they get to heaven.

    Uncle Warren’s followers have to give Warren the virgins first, THEN they get to heaven.

  180. I watched to YouTube of him over and over. From what I have been told of him personally, they say he is nothing like that. They still support and want to follow him. I know that many of you believe that he should stay in there. I totally understand. I really do. However I must be the most selfish person on earth. I need him to get out so that I can have what I want and need in life. His journey will determine my journey. I know that sounds like crazy talk, but its true. I am not a follower of him, nor do I believe in the lifestyle of his followers. I read what you folks say, cause I hope that it will give me a little inside on what is going on. Thank you for answering my questions. I have been looking for answers for the last year or so. I dont know if you all know this, but His followers are very private people. Thats what makes me question so much.

  181. Just curious myself, Janice.

    Do you have a family member married to Warren Jeffs?

  182. Gee Janice,

    I dont know any other private people involved in over 30 lawsuits, trials and appeals.

    Jeffs is simply a destructive train wreck for the FLDS and the lives he has destroyed. These kinds of people need to stay in prison and it looks like it will be forever and well deserved.

    Sorry, thats just life, hope you can find peace another way, there are folks who can help, Warren can not. Ever.

  183. His with a capital H, Janice? That tells a lot.

  184. I love that video, Stamp.

    Warren said we could watch it, so it’s all good.

  185. Too bad the crickers and YF Zippers cant watch it. Their heads would explode, I guess.

    Nasty deal right there, reality and all that jazz.

  186. Janice, Dickipedia has some good info on Warren Jeffs: here’s an excerpt from his page…

    “Jeffs proves the age-old adage that anyone can be famous, but to gain real notoriety you need to get caught getting it on with an eighth-grader.

    His given name, Warren Steed Jeffs, almost sort of makes him sound like a porn actor, along the lines of Jake Steed, star of such adult classics as Bottom Dweller 33 1/3 and What Happens Between My Tits Stays Between My Tits, though it’s likely that Warren Jeffs’ penis is a great deal smaller.

    Jeffs is the son of Rulon T. Jeffs, the original unquestioned omnipotent leader of the FLDS. Known to his followers by the creeptacularly pervball nickname “Uncle Rulon,” the elder Jeffs proved hornier than Tommy Lee on an ecstasy binge, fathering about 60 children with several dozen wives. Upon his death in 2002, Warren Jeffs assumed his father’s place in the church, his father’s nickname, and, within one week, all but two of his father’s wives. This effectively made him “Uncle Brother Stepfather Warren.” “

  187. JonDana– I’d never heard of Dickipedia– it’s hysterical! Thanks for sharing that one!

  188. I do not have a family member married to him. I say Him because that is how I have always stated him to those who follow him. Is name is upseting to me. The name Warren is a little creepy to me, always has been.
    I should also say that I don’t disagree with the fact that he should be in jail. I just wish all his acts would have come out to the world at a later date. It has turned my world upside down.

  189. Walton,

    “Who would want to hurt Buster”? Are you serious?

    There’s a reason some people involved in this stuff choose to stay single.

    Yes, it was in Arizona. Mohave County Arizona. The “ancestral ground” of the FLDS. That’s where Warren Jeffs is right now. He is in the Mohave County Jail in Kingman, Arizona.

    C’mon, y’know, the very same place that grew Michael Fortier for us all?

    Those white militia boys are always so fun.

    Buster had a gun pulled on him during a regular community meeting out there over a decade ago. Fortunately, being a former LA County Sheriffs Deputy- he just pulled one of his own and they decided to settle things peacefully.

    Look deeper.

  190. And I thought Happy Hour was over.

    How has it turned your world upside down?

  191. Thanks Boots. I did some looking and couldn’t find anything. But I’ll look some more.

    This makes me angry. Buster is one of the good guys.
    Did you tell him what I told you?

  192. It’s not my business to share that. It just has. And now I am faced with the fact that I will now need to move, move on, and move away. I will continue to read ya’lls posted on this subject. And thank u for answering my questions.

  193. Well, that was an interesting riddle.

  194. Well now, Twist, we all know how you love a riddle!

  195. Jondana

    What a hoot! Love the parody!

    Janice,

    If you truly need help you need to open up a little more. If you place your life in the hands of someone like Warren so that his arrest affects you, you do realize, you need to run, not walk, right?

  196. Definitely a riddle. If your path is to assassinate him, that would make sense, but otherwise, if you are not a believer I can’t see why you would want him out and about.

  197. Janice,
    Or if someone you know is assigned to a “celestial” relationship by him and needs to be released …. my guess is he wouldn’t release any woman anywhere of child bearing age…so if that person is waiting for release and you are waiting for that person to get released it isn’t going to happen whether or not he is in or out

  198. He was a FBI TOP TEN wanted fugitive for months and is now convicted, with three trials coming up.

    Warren brought this unto himself.

    Have there been affected families?

    Indeed.

    Warren was an equal opportunity abuser.

  199. I need him to get out so that I can have what I want and need in life. His journey will determine my journey. I know that sounds like crazy talk, but its true

    …………………

    You sound just like Sandra Good talking about Charles Manson.

    I don’t understand the attraction some women have for convicted felons. Ted Bundy and Richard Ramirez had groupies too.

    Ick.

  200. Janice: I just wish all his acts would have come out to the world at a later date.
    ………………………..

    So he could have been free to demand more parents hand over their 14 year old daughters to him?

    …………………………

    Janice: It has turned my world upside down.

    ……………………………

    I wouldn’t want your world if it was right side up.

  201. Anon E. Mouse

    The longer this drags on the more it reminds me of the Manson Family.

    Fools blindly following a bigger fool.

    And they are going to prison for the pleasure.

  202. Alrighty then – things just keep getting weirder.

  203. I was thinking Dickipedia was weird, but I read that and thought,

    WHOA

    They are some righteously right on doodes!

  204. Dickipedia is hilarious. It’s other things that keep getting weirder.

    Nothing like the FLDS to lead to odd and unusual things.

  205. Stamp: The longer this drags on the more it reminds me of the Manson Family.

    Fools blindly following a bigger fool.
    …………………

    Yes, both groups share a common vision of an Armageddon in which our country would be purged of its current government and society, leaving if free for them to rule their own special God given worlds.

    At least Jim Jones took his insanity to South America.

  206. Ever see Jay Leno’s “Amazing Similarities”?

    While its easy to cmpare Warren to Tony Alamo, David Koresh, Jim Jones and others, the Manson Family is where I see the bell rung.

    Mansons murders were an attempt to start a race war, White vs Black. The murders were the kindling and he wished for a bonfire.

    Instead, he was righteously vetted and arrested. No race war, sorry Charlie.

    I recommend the book “Helter Skelter” written by Vincent Bugliosi.

    ———- AMAZON READER REVIEW————-

    61 of 66 people found the following review helpful:

    5.0 out of 5 stars

    Fast, Full, and Scary, March 24, 2001

    By miked99 (New York, NY) –

    Helter Skelter is the #1 best selling true crime book ever because of three things: It is the story of one of the highest profile murder cases in the world’s history, even 30+ years after the fact, it is still an amazing and unique story, and finally, Vincent Bugliosi is a fabulous writer.

    Most books written by non-writers might tell a good story but not in a dramatic way that a true author otherwise might. Bugliosi has no problem doing that with his books.”

    (Bugliosi happened to be the prosecutor of Charles Manson and had an unparalleled look at the bain dramage he was dealing with and could easily describe the nonsense – just as Carolyn has done with her book ESCAPE)

    http://www.amazon.com/Helter-Skelter-Story-Manson-Murders/dp/0553574353

  207. Sandra Good is still a faithful follower of Charles Manson. You can find her on YouTube. She is one scary wackjob. I think she served about ten years in prison for sending threatening letters to government officials.
    According to her, Charlie is God/Jesus, he is all about “love” and the government that put him in jail is wrong and evil.

    Sound familiar?

    Her friend Lynette “Squeaky” Fromme will remain in prison for attempting to assasinate Gerald Ford.
    Murderers Leslie Van Houton and Patricia Krenwinkel have been denied parole many times. I believe Charles “Tex” Watson became a born again Christian while in prison, where he still remains. Susan Atkins died in prison of cancer not too long ago. Manson, of course, will never get out.

  208. I thought squeaky got out earlier this year.

  209. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Fromme, now 60, is set to be released on parole August 16.

    Fromme is housed at Federal Medical Center Carswell in Fort Worth, Texas.

  210. Can you imagine have the name Squeky Fromme>???? lol

  211. Lynette Alice “Squeaky” Fromme (born October 22, 1948) is an American former member of the Manson Family. She was sentenced to life imprisonment for attempting to assassinate U.S. President Gerald Ford in 1975.

    After serving 34 years in custody, she was released from prison on August 14, 2009.

  212. Who knows which FLDS defendant is going to trial next? and when?

  213. emack – jan 25

  214. i don’t think squeaky was released on parole, she was released for having served her sentence.

  215. Ron it can get weirder, trust me.

  216. It probably WILL get weirder.

  217. I think “Squeaky” Fromme was recently released from prison. I recall reading about this event.

    Interesting that she would be released before some of the others involved in the Manson Massacres, since she went after President Gerald Ford.

    I visited the grave of Sharon Tate at the Forrest Lawn cemetery in LA and it really brought tears to my eyes.

    Such a senseless death. Such a tragedy. Such nut cases Manson and his followers are/were.

  218. Janice “His journey will determine my journey.”

    His journey will end in a Texas prison…. Period.

  219. There is more than one “Anonymous” posting here, for what if matters.

  220. Be nice if all you anonymouses picked a handle and used it. It doesn’t have to be descriptive of anything in your life. ajdocklw would do just fine. It would just be nice to know WHICH anonymous made what comment. 😉

  221. True, too many Anons.

    Please take a second and give yourself a handle, it will repeat on each post. It needn’t identify you.

    Or you can sign off with each post. Otherwise you will likely be confused with others.

    THANKS – ADMIN

  222. I agree with Rebeckah – it would be nice to know who you’re talking to and who is speaking.

    I love Anon E Mouse – that was a clever way to take a handle while still being anonymous.

  223. Is “Sugar Daddy” taken?

    he he he

  224. I am Anon E Mouse. Sorry I can’t take credit for making it up, I borrowed it from somewhere. I signed up with the same handle to post with on the Trib boards.

    I feel a bit phony, because I Facebook and Twitter and Blog, and in all of those other venues I make it easy for people to know who I am in real life.

    However, because of the nature of the subject and individuals being discussed here, I don’t feel it is prudent to allow people to easily find my identity.

    I doubt I am the only one who feels this way.

    Boots – you are a brave gal, hats off to you and others who put themselves fearlessly out there to help any persons who are the victims of a cult.

  225. This janice needs to give us the word or expect to get the troll treatment.

  226. Anon E Mouse:

    Thanks, it’s simple self preservation is all. In my case, having been media for so long, I learned a long time ago that I’m much safer in plain sight.

    If something ever happens to me somebody is going to scratch their head and say “Hmmm”, rather than “tough break”.

  227. Granny Toad, I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one ifin I was you 🙂

  228. Interesting that she would be released before some of the others involved in the Manson Massacres, since she went after President Gerald Ford.

    ………………….

    Squeaky wasn’t involved in the Tate-LaBianca murders. But she, along with Sandra Good and a couple of others, were among the girls who sat outside the courthouse on the sidewalk making a stink while the murderers were on trial.

    I didn’t realize she had been released from prison. Hopefully she was rehabilitated and no longer believes in the godhood of Charles Manson.

  229. Well, if Janice really needs help of some sort, she just has to ask and there is probably someone here who can help her or who knows someone who can help her.

  230. Mouse, don’t hold your breath for that to happen. She talked a good talk though.

  231. True story, Janice. And unlike Utah and Arizona, Texas has the will and the ability to assist victims.

    I’m sure the Texas Rangers could assist you if you want to cooperate.

  232. Boots, thanks your post on your blog,,, it was very well stated, and I like your style:)

  233. deputydog,

    You’re so welcome. In these past two weeks I have felt almost like I can really breathe again, for the first time in, well, years.

  234. Betty: Well, if Janice really needs help of some sort, she just has to ask and there is probably someone here who can help her or who knows someone who can help her.

    ………………………..

    I didn’t understand what she might need help WITH . . . but whatever it was, seemed like pretty much a “drive by” poster.

  235. HAHAHA betty,, I Like that,,, drive by poster,,, 🙂

  236. If she thinks her path is tied to WSJ’s, then she needs help. I’m just saying….

  237. the post on flds101.blogspot.com is very enlightening.

  238. Janice “His journey will determine my journey.”

    His journey will end in a Texas prison…. Period.

  239. Yes, ProudTexan, I thought it was interesting.

  240. It wasnt a drive by post. I have been reading. No one can help me. Everything is out of my hands. I have had no say or control for the last year. After all that you folks have said and what I know here at home, I just need to wait. I am moving away in the next few months to escape my thoughts and what I have been told. I am not a follower of WSJ’s, but I am close to some that do. My whole reason for even asking ya’ll questions was because Im not allowed to ask questions here. The things that I have learned were expressed to me in weakness. So thank you for giving me answers to compare with. Im sorry if ya’ll think im crazy.

    Sometimes reading what ya’ll say makes me really think about the idea that “people are afraid of what they dont know”. Everyone has such negative views. I have tried to take in everything from you folks and those that are around me as positive as possible. Im not saying that rape is positive.
    Think about those that have followed his teachings. They truely believe that is the best way to live life. They have their world and we have ours. And it seems that we as humans just cant leave well enough alone. Always put’n in our two cents when we really dont know what the hell we are talking about. I bet that if I told you everything I knew, you would all think to yourselves “I didnt know that”. Cause truth be told, we arent from their world. We dont know!!!

    EDIT – No personal attacks – ADMIN

    Again thank you for your time to answer my questions. I look forward to continuing to read your posts. And by the way everyone seems to quote my words “his journey will determine my journey”. Well it does. I understand that my journey will be detoured because he is in prison. But think about it, arent we all on some journey. If you say no your not then your probably right. Your probably some politician, or a lawyer. Oh way im mistaken you are a follower of Gore. Ha Ha….
    Good night to all. I hope you sleep well in your world.

  241. Janice: I am moving away in the next few months to escape my thoughts and what I have been told.

    ………………

    Ah . . . the “geographic fix.” Good luck with that!

  242. The “geographic fix” is never truly effective.

  243. Janice, Bully/Victim = Sociopath. I’m on to you chico.

  244. Well Guess Janice didnt like her pedestal boy falling off. She ought to read this about what Warren did to the folks in Shortcreek.

    Sent many to live and repent afar.

    Perhaps thats her personal pain, being both rejected yet stuck on Warren.

    FLDS hubris, Squared

    http://flds101.blogspot.com/2009/12/flds-101-beliefs-yfz-and-other-lands-of.html

  245. I’m betting Janice is a chico doing a bad impersonation of a chica. Because in his mind that’s how women think. Just like flds men take advantage of a woman’s feeling for her child or sensitivity to everlasting ‘glory’ this basically worthless sociopath is trying to pull what he perceives to be the chains of the compassionate people on this board.

    Why? Because inside he is raging. Eric Nichols threw down hard and fast lines and he doesn’t like it. The only recourse is raging and threatening and posturing. When that doesn’t work, the next tack is humiliation.

    What has meaning to chico is the ability to control and manipulate the emotions of the people who participate on this board. To him, it’s everything.

    If you step back and take a deep breath, it’s meaningless, and basically so is he.

  246. Well, I suppose on one level all our lives are tied to Warren Jeffs. I certainly follow his wackiness and that of the FLDS with a sort of morbid preoccupation.

    Being a closet Buddhist I find the whole idea of “escaping” thoughts rather amusing. The phrase, “where ever you go, there you are” comes to mind.

    So, Janice, there is no “escape” from your thoughts. However, they only have the power that you give them.

  247. Well, kind, kind, Ron, you’re right about one thing. They only have the power that you give them.

    Onward and upward, has anyone ever been able to figure out the difference between a ‘temple worker’ and a ‘temple builder?’

  248. Janice your journey hit a brick wall aka jail brick wall.

  249. Do people from Utah/Arizona say “ya’ll”?

  250. I’m not upset about Janice, just curious. If there really is a person needing help, she/he will ask. If not, it will become really clear what’s going on. The more Janice talks, the more we will recognize a sock puppet or not.

  251. Betty,

    “Do people from Utah/Arizona say “ya’ll””.

    Not in my experience, although the accent that comes out of some places in northern Arizona does bear some resemblance to a Texas twang. I met more than one Arizona cowboy who said he had been mistaken for a Texan before.

    But “y’all”, especially written out…not so much.

  252. IOW…something’s hinky.

  253. Janice has a posting style similar (but not identical) to one on Texas Polygamy that some people consider to be Ruth. (I’m not sure which Ruth he/she is suspected of being.)

    Janice, you’re certainly allowed to ask questions here. People will answer you or not as they choose. If you want information then asking questions and reading are your two best sources. Many answers, however, depend on clear questions. Some are inappropriate. For instance, asking someone who has personal information just who they spoke to in the FLDS is inappropriate. The answer could get someone into trouble for talking. So ask questions if you wish but think about them first and their possible consequences for others. (That’s my advice.)

    And yes, moving away will not free you from your thoughts or the majority of your problems. Staying and facing and conquering them is the only lasting solution for that one. I speak from personal experience. 😉

  254. Boots, yup, right you are.

  255. Janice: Think about those that have followed his teachings. They truely believe that is the best way to live life. They have their world and we have ours

    ……………………………

    If your world is located within the boundaries of the United States of America, you are subject to the laws of the State and Federal Governments.

    You are free to BELIEVE whatever you want, but if you ACT in ways that break these laws, you can expect to be prosecuted.

    Have you watched the video of Warren stating that he is NOT the prophet? I like the part where he says “this is not a test”

  256. Onward and upward, has anyone ever been able to figure out the difference between a ‘temple worker’ and a ‘temple builder?’
    ——–
    The LDS church also has “temple workers” – I think it means volunteers (usually elderly men and women who have time on their hands) who serve in the ceremonies, anointing, etc. or help make things run smoothly (i.e. renting out the temple garments).

    I’m not sure if the FLDS temple at YFZ ever had any ceremonies performed in it – does anyone know?

    As an aside, I recently read something interesting about FLDS temple ceremonies and the long hair all the women have. Apparently a woman’s hair isn’t for washing the feet of Jesus when he returns, or at least, it isn’t JUST for that. It’s for washing the feet of her husband, in a temple ceremony:

    “While Jesus was still in Bethany where His wives were, His wife Mary took a pound of precious oil called spikenard. It was so expensive. She performed an ordinance of the priesthood that a wife does for her husband called the washing of feet. She took the oil and rubbed it on His feet and then took her long hair and wiped his feet with her hair. That is an ordinance of the priesthood. That is why girls need long hair. It’s very important in their relation with their husband. You’ll learn about that, especially when we build the temples.”
    http://www.childpro.org/2007/documents/Tape%2032%20FLDS.doc

  257. Sounds more like Laurene I think. Ruth’s spelling ability just isnt that good.

  258. FLDS101

    Good piece. It’s a shame how families are torn apart and people still allow it to happen.

  259. Well Janice it’s interesting how you walk the FLDS tightrope just like a Believer would, you know they just want to be left alone. They live in a Theocracy within the confines of these United States and it’s nobodies business because they have ‘Freedom of Religion’ but not freedom from observing our laws.

    We don’t have to hold to their creed, live at the YFZ Ranch nor worship Warren to know that this covert sect has fanatical markings and is running amuck intrastate. The Jewish Holocaust must have been horrendous but I wasn’t able to attend to that experience, either. Doesn’t discount my interest in insuring that no such practices find a home within America.

    Janice your suggestion that I am not my ‘brothers keeper’ runs contrary to my Scriptural beliefs. You shouldn’t be so defensive if you truly have nothing to hide or haven’t committed any felony(s).

  260. elie,

    Oh, great. Now I feel nauseous. A formal ceremony, in church, of submission of wife to husband. Charming.

  261. It is interesting that the FLDS make the claim that Mary, who washed Jesus’ feet, did so because she was his wife. There is no such claim of a marital relationship between Mary and Jesus in the New Testament. Please note that Jesus also washed the feet of his disciples, and they were not his “wives.”
    Feet washing was performed by servants in the New Testament era, it was not an activity or ceremony that wives performed for their husbands.

  262. That reminds me, I was going to try to get a haircut before Christmas. I have very fine hair, and once it reaches shoulder length, it starts to look like crap.

    I wouldn’t make a good FLDS wife because I don’t think I could ever get that “swoop” in the front poofed up enough.

  263. I don’t think its ruth at all, first of all ruth is in Colorado, and though Ive read many of her posts, its really not her style.
    I don’t know who it is, but Janice, or whatever your name is, you say your not FLDS, but you are close to some who are. Okay, so what is the threat to you personally? I see none.
    If you want to leave where you are, nothing is holding you back.
    Your right, I’ve never met an FLDS personally, alhtough I have spoken to one used to post on SLT. I take his word for much of what went on in FLDS before he left, and know things got worse after he left.
    If you want to leave the area, to make a better life for yourself, sounds good. But just as so many Flds , you tend to blame your move on something, anything, other than the fact you just want to move on.
    Take responsibility for yourself, seek the happiness you crave, but don’t blame it on the fact, Flds broke the law, and it has effected you to the point of moving.
    Home is where the heart is, not a place, or religion or group!

  264. Several different religious faith beleive a woman should have long hair, because it distingueshes her from a male, just as some other religions insist women wear only dresses. The whole thing is silly to me. But, if religions want to believe that, I have no problem, those things aren’t breaking the law,, have sex with underage girls, is.

  265. Im sure FLDS would consider me a harlot, lol I have long hair by choice, but its curly, and I wear make-up and jeans, and short skirts and jewelry. Ive never looked at another man, Ive been married many years, hell I was virgin when I married at the age of 20. Just goes to show you, Its personal self esteem that counts, not how you dress or wear your hair.

  266. Jesus washed the feet of his disciples to prove a point. He wanted us all to know, none of us are any better than anyone else. Just as he served us, we were to serve each other in the same manner. Even though he was King and Saviour, he was also human, and loved unconditionally, the way we are supposed to do.
    Im sure God is very disappointed in the world today. Im sure he is angry, and sad that children are treated the way they are not only by religions but by parents, strangers, relatives. Christ didn’t like one bit the hurting of children in any way or manner.
    And was very emphatic about how someone who did hurt a child should be treated.

  267. Like Boots said, The picture she had of the little boy in the window with the black eye, haunts me. There he was in plain sight, where authorites could see him, and NO ONE DID anything!!
    How many children are in the same situation? And won’t or can’t ask for help.

  268. So they grow their hair long just to wash someone’s feet? What’s wrong with a wash cloth? And was Jesus’ hair long when he washed the diciples feet? Just wondering. I’m afraid my husband’s feet was be quite crusty if he depended on my hair for washing. I’m not putting myself thru the long hair hell just for someone else’s clean feet. 🙂

    As far as staying and facing the problem as being a lasting solution… I also speak from personal experience and sometimes it helps to leave the place that keeps all those bad memories in your face. I left my hell hole and started life over and was able to forget a lot of the hurt and actually built a nice life for myself. I guess it depends on what it is you are having to deal with.

    Not knowing all the facts about Janice makes it hard to pass judgement on her. If she is seeking the truth and wants to make her life better, I hope she succeeds. I agree though, she needs to leave WSJ out of the equation. He’s only a negative.

  269. We celebrate the Birth of Christ in a couple of days. That’s what Christmas is about. HE should be our focus, HE is the reason for this season. Even though we don’t know the exact date, it really doesn’t matter, that is the day we remember, celebrate his birth.
    We should really celebrate everyday, after all HE gave his life so we could live. I for one will do my best to remember that myself from this day forward.

  270. kasoe, no judgement here, just going by what she wrote. Which was rather convaluted to say the least about what she was talking about. It was more riddles, than anything.

  271. Im sure FLDS would consider me a harlot, lol I have long hair by choice, but its curly, and I wear make-up and jeans, and short skirts and jewelry
    ……………………….

    DeputyDog is a woman?! (scratching out initial mental image of cowboy type and replacing with cute gal)

  272. Yes, she has been speaking in riddles. I fully agree with you there. It would be easier to judge where she’s coming from if she’d explain why WSJ’s journey decides her journey. I don’t really understand that either. I just don’t want to jump to conclusions about her til she blatantly says something that make’s you go “alrighty then”. Maybe she’s in the beginning stages of trying to break free, doesn’t want to say too much at this point and so she comes across as a bit shady. I guess I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt until it’s obvious that she’s a troll.

    Fortunately, I have never had to live my life by someone else’s dictations (except for my lst husband which is no longer the case) so I just don’t get the allowing another person’s life directing yours, especially if you are not directly connected to them. But those people are out there and hopefully they will wake up and start living their own lives. Obviously, I wonder what’s up with the FLDS and any other group that lives that way. Can they not think for themselves?

  273. Yes, we are about the celebrate the birth of Christ. As Janice pointed out, we are all sinners. But this is not so much a harsh condemnation, as it is just a fact that, as humans, we will always fall short of the mark. We can never be perfect. But the Good News is God loves us anyway and His salvation is a free gift. We can’t earn it by following any set of rules.

    It’s a Gift.

    Free.

    Directly from God.

    I feel sad for those who believe that only perfect obedience to a self-appointed human “prophet” will bring them to Christ, that they need permission from Joseph Smith and/or Warren Jeffs to be in Heaven with God.

    It is so much more simple and sweet than that.

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

    I am a human, I am a woman, I believe, therefore I am saved – sorry Warren, not your call.

  274. Mouse,
    Honey Dawn seems to think that you and Duane H are the same person. Better head over to her blog and clarify things.

  275. Actually, my bible does not say that Mary washed the feet of Jesus. It says “a prostitute” did that. Only tradition connects Mary Magdalene – the first person to see Jesus resurrected – with a prostitute. Seems like a frame job to me, to discredit the role of women in the life of Jesus. Also, we must not forget that Jesus that act was a preparation for the grave.

    In the Easter service, Catholic priests wash the feet of the congregation to remember Jesus washing the feet of the apostles and as a sign of humility. It makes sense to me for those in authority to humble themselves as a spiritual act. It is totally disgusting to take someone who has little or no control over anything in their life and make them perform a ritual of subjugation. And then to make them keep the long hair as a symbol of their inferiority is just horrible. It’s one more sign that they have made a religion out of the subjugation of women. The ownership of women IS their god. Barbaric and disgusting.

  276. that Jesus thought that act was a preparation for the grave.

  277. The FLDS cannot think for themselves. Good thing they have us to think for them.

    If they would merely renounce their pagan religion, convert to catholicism and recognize the Pope as the true man of God who hold the keys, all of their problems would go away.

  278. Sorry Anon E Mouse, I thought you knew I was female, LOL 🙂

    I agree with Betty, It never says Mary Magdelene was a prostitute. I honestly don’t know where they came from. The word never identifies her as such. Evidently Christ certainly didn’t see women the same way as some Men today do. There were many women who followed Christ, and I found it rather exciting the Christ chose Mary M. to see him first after the reserrection, and she was the one who was told to go and tell the others.

  279. The only one who holds the Keys to the Kingdom is Jesus Christ who made it possible for those who believe on him to have salvation. No Human being has the keys!

  280. Hey, duane, what’s shaking?

  281. We’re really celebrating the winter solstice. The Christians stole it from the pagans and depending upon who you talk to its unclear whether the pagans have taken it back or not.

  282. I agree, Ron. Unfortunately, I think it now belongs to the retail and advertising industry.

  283. actually Winter Solstice is on December 21 🙂

  284. Accurate calendars are a relatively recent invention, DD. So is the ability to measure time accurately.

  285. its okay, i figure for whatever reason, its up to each individual what they celebrate in december, my personal preference just happens to be the Birth of Christ, whether is was December, or in the middle of the summer, wouldn’t matter.

  286. Anyway, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanakah, Happy Winter Solstice, etc, to Everyone who has worked so diligently this past year to unravel the abuse of children by Religious groups!

  287. I can understand that, DD. If it means that to you, then that’s fine with me. 😀

  288. Thanks Betty 🙂

  289. DD, the mainstream LDS church teaches exactly the same things about Mary and Jesus. Just in case anyone was wondering…

    Like the expert for the defense at Keate’s trial testified, ‘There is a at least a 95% similarity between the FLDS and LDS faiths’.

    Now why would Utah go out of their way to cover up or secretly support their state’s polygamy “problems”?

  290. Boots, Im thinking its bad publicity for ALL mormons, LDS, FLDS, the break off groups. Ive also read there are some LDS who have more than one wife,but the church knows nothing about it.

  291. Well, there are Catholics who use birth control, too, and get communion every Sunday.

  292. ……”but the church knows nothing about it.”…..ROFLMELAO!!!!

    Yeah, and Catholics know nothing about the pope, too.

    That’s how it all got so far out of hand that there are “now too many to prosecute”.

    Right. Okay. Whatever.

  293. Oh yeah, that seems like an idea from 40MaryumMarried

    Take the FLDS and make them Catholics – or muslims – or Jews.

    Oh wait, Bile already made them Jews!

  294. Mouse,
    Honey Dawn seems to think that you and Duane H are the same person. Better head over to her blog and clarify things.

    ………………….

    Ewww. I don’t know why she thinks that. I LOVE her blog, she is so sweet.

    Anyway, Duane is over there going on and on about the Pope. I’m a Presbyterian. Don’t know if that will clear anything up, or just muddy the waters even more.

  295. The FLDS cannot think for themselves. Good thing they have us to think for them.

    If they would merely renounce their pagan religion, convert to catholicism and recognize the Pope as the true man of God who hold the keys, all of their problems would go away
    ………………….

    Hi Duane. Thanks for telling Honey Dawn I’m not you.

  296. DD:
    I agree with Betty, It never says Mary Magdelene was a prostitute. I honestly don’t know where they came from. The word never identifies her as such. Evidently Christ certainly didn’t see women the same way as some Men today do. There were many women who followed Christ, and I found it rather exciting the Christ chose Mary M. to see him first after the reserrection, and she was the one who was told to go and tell the others.

    ……………………..

    Thank you for pointing out that nowhere in the Bible does it say that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. Some man came up with that after the fact because, well for some reason, so many of them have wanted to “keep us in our place.”

    Also, Mary of Bethany and her sister Martha (Lazarus was their brother) as portrayed in the New Testament were close friends of Jesus. Jesus treated women as equals, not as second class citizens.

  297. O horsepucky. I’m more than equal to some of those guys.

  298. That’s funny “not a mouse” 1:40 post, I just read where Duane said almost word for word of yours on HoneyDawn’s blog…….?

  299. “The FLDS cannot think for themselves. Good thing they have us to think for them.

    If they would merely renounce their pagan religion, convert to catholicism and recognize the Pope as the true man of God who hold the keys, all of their problems would go away.”

    Wasn’t Duane already banned for doing this sort of thing?

    You know, Duane, the ONLY person I ever see making these sorts of comments is you. Why do you continually accuse others of doing what you do? I always wondered about that. Seems rather psychotic to me, but I’m not a mental health professional.

  300. Rebecca, I think poor duane just wants attention, you know , and says stupid things, thinking he will get it. LOL

  301. Anon E Mouse,
    Did you know that The HOPE Organization received a large 2-year “Thank Offering” grant from the Creative Ministries of Presbyterian Women via your church in Louisville, KY to conduct life skills classes for children living in Hildale and Colorado City?

    Your church is AWESOME and I don’t use that word very often.

    Please tell your fellow Presbyterians how much this grant is going to improve the lives of the children who participate in this program funded by your church.

    Your church’s generosity will indeed change the lives for children who were raised in these polygamous communities.

    Merry Christmas,
    Elaine Tyler
    The HOPE Organization
    St. George, Utah

  302. Did you know that The HOPE Organization received a large 2-year “Thank Offering” grant from the Creative Ministries of Presbyterian Women via your church in Louisville, KY to conduct life skills classes for children living in Hildale and Colorado City?

    Your church is AWESOME and I don’t use that word very often.

    Please tell your fellow Presbyterians how much this grant is going to improve the lives of the children who participate in this program funded by your church.

    Your church’s generosity will indeed change the lives for children who were raised in these polygamous communities.
    …………………

    Thank you! The Presbyterian Church is VERY much focused on service, and on spending time with those in need. In our community, our outreach is especially strong among the homeless, both adults and teens. We also help support AIDS victims in Africa, rural communities in Central America, and victims of any kind of bondage all over the world.

    We have both male and female ministers, and ministers are chosen by the body of the church.

    We believe the love of Christ is available to any who desire Him, we offer Communion to anyone who wants it.

    Now that I’ve said all that, I confess I feel I don’t do enough – there are so many who need help, I fall far short of the mark.

    I am sure there are many good people in the FLDS, but what strikes me is the FOCUS of their religion: it is so SELFISH. Its purpose is to glorify the MEN by making them gods of their own planets. That’s what they strive for, their own personal reward, and in order to get this reward, it’s “required” that they stick their penises into as many women as possible.

    Sorry to be so blunt, isn’t that what Joseph Smith wanted; permission to be promiscuous. The man couldn’t keep it in his pants.

  303. Another new good read at FLDS 101:

    http://flds101.blogspot.com/2009/12/flds-history-101-warren-jeffs-in-hiding.html

  304. Well Anon E Mouse,
    I did get a good laugh from your bluntness. Honesty is good and there is nothing wrong with saying it like you see it.

    I am quite aware of the global focus of the humanitarian efforts of the Presbyterian Church.

    That is why The HOPE Organization is so flattered and appreciative of our grant from your church.

    There were 69 applications last year for funding. There were 27 grants awarded.

    13 were International projects and 14 were US projects.

    Of those 14 US projects, HOPE was one of the recipients. AND we received the 2nd largest grant that was awarded – which I found amazing since we are such a small charity just trying to improve people’s lives in a tiny geographic area too often forgotten or ignored.

    It makes me SO honored to know that the Presbyterian Church thinks our endeavors to assist women and children from polygamy are that important that they would fund our life skills project.

    It truly humbles me to know that there really are people who care about the victims of polygamy and will provide the funding to make this possible!

    Elaine

  305. PS Anon E Mouse,
    You DON’T fall short of the mark!

  306. “Rebecca, I think poor duane just wants attention, you know , and says stupid things, thinking he will get it. LOL”

    Negative attention is better than no attention at all? Yes, that fits what I’ve seen of him so far.

  307. Another new good read at FLDS 101:

    http://flds101.blogspot.com/2009/12/flds-history-101-warren-jeffs-in-hiding.html

    ……………………….

    Fascinating. Can this url be posted on the Trib blog, or would that that against their terms of use.

    Warren took pleasure in the destruction of New Orleans by Hurricane Katrina. That puts him in the same league as Al Queda, rejoicing at the suffering of innocent Americans.

    And why did he watch so much porn on TV?

  308. Anon e mouse

    Yes you can post URLs on the Trib!

    Its good to see the scoop from the inside. Something that Brooke cant grasp. Im not sure she would let it be on her blog, but the message boards are fine.

    If you post it in a neutral post on her blog she may well allow it though.

  309. The Modern Pharisee blog is a big laugh today. He’s actually SURPRISED and CONFUSED that the FLDS don’t want legalization of polygamy, they just want a religious exemption. Laughing my butt off. No kidding? That’s a surprise?!?

    I’m leaving him a message here, since I know he reads these comments from time to time and I know he won’t let me comment on his site:
    DUDE. They don’t WANT the women to have legal rights or property rights! Where have you been? Have you actually read their religious writings? They are deliberately subjugating women as an order from God and they are not at all unclear about it. Legalization would just give all the women a standing in court and allow them to gang up on the men and demand things like health insurance and shoes and consent for the addition of the next wife. If they all have to go into a court house and sign that the man can take the nth wife, polygamy will die out so fast it will make your head spin! They want to continue to say “It’s none of your business whom I marry, you’re not the Bishop.” And the truth which is right under your nose is that those 12-16 year old girls are not really consenting. If they had to wait until they could get married legally (16), then go into the court house with the girls and their parents to sign a license in front of the court clerk, most of their marriages would evaporate like dew in the dessert sun! I’m betting the court clerks would notice that the girls were crying and saying they aren’t ready to get pregnant! And they couldn’t do it on three hours notice.

    What they WANT is to break the law, abuse women and GET AWAY WITH IT! What they WANT is their own GOVERNMENT. They’ve made that really, really clear and you’ve just continued to see them as being like your imaginary biblical heroes. Religiously mandated polgyny is ALWAYS unequal to women – that’s the very point of it! The whole point is to say that men get more of life’s goodies than women cause God said so! The only way poly-anything works is with a small number of consenting adults. There is no such thing as a happy 23rd wife!

    And “decriminalizing” is such ridiculous concept that shows a very short attention span and poor ability to visualize consequences. What happens AFTER decriminalization? Law suits, that’s what! And how can the court decide based on a law that says that this is not illegal but there are no regulations on it? The court is going to overlay tenets of monogamous marriage, like property and custody laws. And then legislation will have to follow. “Decriminalization” is a brief Camelot moment that won’t last through the first law suit between two surviving widows. Just look at the cases in other countries – why do you think it would be different here?! Being Christian and white does not change the underlying issues such as unfair distribution of inheritance. It’s either one way or the other – either it’s illegal, or courts are going to be involved in the secular aspects.

    (My apologies to the admin for this, but I’ve got to say it or I’ll explode.)

    What the FLDS wants is for the Prophet to control 100% of the pussy and 100% of the money without any accountability to anyone on earth and that’s not legal and it never will be!

  310. I just posted a long bit about Hugh’s shock that the FLDS don’t want legalization and it completely disappeared immediately. Either the admin is really, really quick or I’m clicking the wrong button or something. There was one questionable word in the post, is there a content moderation on this blog?

  311. Anon e mouse

    Yes you can post URLs on the Trib!

    Its good to see the scoop from the inside. Something that Brooke cant grasp. Im not sure she would let it be on her blog, but the message boards are fine.

    If you post it in a neutral post on her blog she may well allow it though.

    ………………….

    I didn’t post the FLDS101 url on the Trib board, but I have commented on what I’ve been reading there.

    The apologists go on and on there about how persecuted the FLDS is – but more and more evidence is coming to light, in Warren’s own words, that Warren Jeffs is the agent of destruction for the FLDS.

    Anyway, enough of this. Today is Christmas Eve! I wish the best for everybody, and peace for the world.

  312. “…why did he watch so much porn on TV?”

    For the same reason that anyone else does.

    He likes it.

    Feet of clay.

  313. To all of my observant Christian friends out there, may your Christmas be merry and bright.

    I wonder about the lumps of coal Willie promised the FLDS children would have, ‘because of our attorney general’.

    Funny, I thought the FLDS didn’t observe Christmas, per Warren Jeffs orders. He has already banned the color red, so exactly what sort of “Christmas” was Willie implying the children of the YFZ would have tomorrow?

    Is there some secret Christmas tree, or planned gift ceremony scheduled on the YFZ?

    Has Warren, just like the Grinch, really managed to steal Christmas completely from his followers?

    I wonder which mother on that ranch will be secretly trying to slip her children gifts?

    To all of you who experience holiness through your faith, a very merry Christmas indeed, your joy is just as holy as your love of justice.

    “I shall place my spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles”.

    Although I do not celebrate Christmas, I always find a way to find a deeper appreciation of my Christian friends this time of year.

    k.Dee

  314. Watching porn with three teenage cuties and Naomie in a hotel room sounds like a party to me.

  315. The fact that he thinks he controls the weather speaks to his, and by extension, the group’s world view. And if you don’t like what we talk about why do you come here?

  316. Boots, thank you for the warm Christmas wishes. (And warmth we need with that icy north wind blowing.) May you enjoy a time of peace and love and joy at this time of year and in the year ahead.

  317. Thank you, I’ve already had my “Hanukkah miracle” this year, so I’m hoping y’all each have a Christmas one to savor;)

  318. Since I helped my friend to make a grossly offensive amount of Christmas fare before she left to join up with family, I am stuck here with nothing but a great dog in a cabin with a hot tub on the river, huge plates of goodies and a roaring fire;)

    I have gained 5 lbs this week…
    Life is rough sometimes;)

  319. Well, I started to feel sorry for you for being all by yourself, then I kept reading. Now I’m thinking I ought to go to Kerrville soon. LOL Enjoy the quiet time!

  320. I love it.

    The stars at night are big and bright,
    Deep in the heart of Texas…

    You definitely don’t have to feel sorry for me. I am preocupied with things of great import, like checking in with NORAD to see how Santa is coming along…and my next grilled cheese sandwich fried in real butter, and another bowl of hot tomato soup…maybe some crusty french bread…with more butter…or olive oil…or maybe I should save room for divinity and chocolate peanut butter bars, or pecan pie, or lemon squares, or fudge…

    Of course I could just die from a diabetic coma if I don’t stop soon, too..lmao. Maybe I should try to fill up on popcorn or something…

  321. Grilled cheese fried in real butter (yum) and served with tomato soup — one of my favorite comfort food combos!!! We gotta be related. LOL

  322. Boots,
    Hold the cholesterol there !

  323. Boots,
    What was your Chanukah miracle ?

  324. TexasConnie said, “We gotta be related. LOL”…only if you need really thick greasy potato chips and dill pickle spear to make it perfect!

    catwhisperer said, “Hold the cholesterol there !”…would this be a bad time to tell you I’m rendering schmaltz as we speak, so I can make myself a little chopped liver?

  325. OOOOOOKaaaaayyyyy, but you still didn’t tell me about the Chanukah miracle …..

  326. I braved the super-wal-store world today. I was greeted, as I rushed through the doors, by a Salvation Army guy booming, “Merry Christmas, Ma’am and G-d bless you tonight!”

    As soon as I was in the door, into the warmth I heard someone singing, “Away in a Manger”…

    I happened to be in the county tax office this week, inside the court house, and saw several crush’s displayed. Of course, there is a lovely one on our courthouse lawn as well.

    I don’t find any of this frightening or offensive in the least.

    I find people who steal the freedom and innocence of their own children and then claim it as a religious right much more offensive.

    In one there is a true spirit of liberty, constrained only by a belief in an infinite source of goodness to which one will someday answer, and in the other, only a future of slavery.

    Some of the things I love about Texas this time of year…

    Ask someone in New York if their cashiers are wishing them a “Merry Christmas” and then saying, “And G-d bless you!”…and they really mean it?

    It’s like the streets start flowing with peace on earth and goodwill to men… I see real love here, every day, that’s what I love about Texas this time of year;)

    Like our neighbor down the road, Robert Earl says, y’a just can’t make this stuff up… I played this one for my brand new son in law, right after explaining to him that I’m not exactly politically correct…so I hope he understands that my first grandchild will be called, “My little Tex-Mex”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P37xPiRz1sg&feature=fvw

  327. Robert Earl! Robert Earl!

    Love it, Boots. One of my favorites.

    Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad and Happy Holidays to all!

  328. Merry Christmas, Y’all!

  329. Thanks Boots, and Happy Hanukkah!

  330. Thank you, Stamp! A very merry Christmas to you!

  331. TexasTwist,

    I am starting to feel like Templeton the rat, after returning from the state fair.

    As I sit by the fire, chopped liver makes me think deep thoughts, like how there should really be more kinds of spreadable meats in life…

  332. Like my special chicken liver paté? (my secret: sauté in light Bacardi)

  333. Oh my, now that does sound interesting… BTW, if anyone needs an easy, very quick chocolate peanut butter goodie bars recipe, let me know…I guarantee the entire thing will be gone in 24 hours..even if you are alone.

  334. hey,

    I just read a Utah story and it made me want to sing that old Sesame Street song, the one about how one of these things does not belong…

    But after reading the whole thing, I feel more like I need a song about how something is missing…or maybe there is just a big white elephant in the room, or a five hundred pound gorilla…

    a nearly unanimous consensus of Associated Press members and AP reporters in the state [UTAH].

    http://www.cachevalleydaily.com/news/local/80118752.html

  335. Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, Glorious Quanzaa, Joyous Boxing Day, Sensational Solstice, or just happy gift giving middle of the winter to you all! I am so tired my hair hurts but it was worth it. Many people ate too much food and wonderful gifts were exchanged and the kids didn’t even have meltdowns this year! (And considering that one of my grandsons is ADHS and one has Autism that’s a minor miracle.) I think next year I’ll go to Boots’ house and have butter fried toasted cheese sandwiches and tomato soup (with a dollop of sour cream and some shredded cheddar cheese!) but you can keep the potato chips because they don’t agree with my stomach. And if you’re really nice to me I’ll make some tortilla soup while I’m there! 😉

  336. We’ll be celebrating Christmas tomorrow because we spent Christmas Eve in the Emergency Room and today the chef was still too sick to cook.

    Oh boy, I can hardly wait.

    Poor Santa, he thought he would have Boxing Day off.

  337. Here is an example of the real intent of the pro – religious polygyny faction : Huge Ego weighs in on biblical polygyny in the link, stating that women have no right to have any say if their husbands are to marry a second wife. In fact, Huge Ego tells us that polygyny is to be used to control the behavior of a rebellious first wife.

    http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1064&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=6d195ba1771ffabe892e1beb6b4e7518&start=10

  338. Well that was certainly a trip down the rabbit hole.

    Nucking futs, several of them.

  339. Harvey, Drew & Willie

    http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2009/dec/26/lawmaker-not-fazed-by-flds-ire-i-just-couldnt-be/

  340. Hey Anon, sorry about the holiday interruption and hope the cook feels better today, too!

    Texastwist & Merry Christmas…no freakin’ kidding.

    Huge Ego makes me want to look at him and say, “What color is yer sky mister?”

    Cause the world I’m livin’ in has a blue one…

  341. Well, I first turned against Huge Ego when he said that if his daughter, living under his roof, did not marry the man he instructed her to marry, then he would toss her out on the street and disown her. It’s pretty clear – he only appreciates women if they are in abject submission to his superior (sic) understanding of the Bible.

    Basically, these sorts of people want to go back to a religion that was based in a culture in which women were property. It is total hatred of women to assume that they are so incompetent to run their own souls that their only salvation rests in complete obedience to their husbands. The idea that women choose that path horrifies me, and I am so sorry for them. The confusion and struggle that they must go through on a daily basis is so unnecessary and such a distraction from the actual work that they could be doing here in their time on earth. Such an artificially imposed structure of dominance is a waste of human resources in so many ways. Not only do I thank God for having a wonderful husband who is a PARTNER in my spiritual path, but I thank all the women before me who risked their lives, their marriages and time in jail to gain their freedom. Screw that silliness.

  342. Today I read two stories of young girls taken, one by a man who dated her guardian – and she was killed, poor thing – and another taken by a stranger and mercifully rescued soon after – thank goodness for Amber alert and alert police officers! It got me wondering, though. It seems like there is a sexual predator behind every closed door anymore. Do you all think there are more predatory men out there or do you think that maybe we just recognize their behavior as evil nowadays? Is this new behavior (or increased since men raping children is as old as mankind) or is it something we just didn’t notice so much?

  343. In that discussion, there is one post that talks about whether or not a woman should submit to a man who is abusive to her. And the response wanders all over the topic – “of course” there are options for women who are being abused, but she should still submit and obey her husband. HUH? What if the husband is ordering her to be abused? What if they have different definitions of abuse? Anytime you are counseling total submission of one person to another, you are advocating abuse. In fact, in my book, the submission itself is abuse. If one partner has to say that their good and reasonable needs are not on the list of priorities unless the other agrees, then you have abuse. That would mean, for instance, that if the husband orders the wife to not visit her mother or to cut off contact with all female friends except those approved by him, that’s abuse, because staying in contact with your biological family and having a support network of friends is a reasonable need common to all humans. In fact, that very thing is listed on all the hand outs on what is or is not psychological abuse. For one thing, those out side influences are often the only beacon of light out of an abusive relationship.

  344. Hugh’s mysogyny and insecurity are well known. I don’t actually understand why anyone, other than other mysogynists, a few masochistic women and possibly clinical psychiatry students would bother to read him. He’s proven that he has no empathy, respect or basic compassion for women over and over again.

  345. So, the Pharisee says he wants polgyny to be legal, then he says that women have no right to approve the next wife. Does he really think THAT would every be legal? If a woman works and bring in money to the family economy, should she have no control over how many times that money is divided? Should she buy a house just so that a stranger who never worked may take it away from her when her husband dies? Does anyone think that such a form of literal financial slavery – working so that your spouse can have more sexual partners without your knowledge or consent – would ever be endorsed by law? It does say all MEN are created equal, maybe they are assuming that the equality of women to men has no basis in law?

    That may be a clue why the FLDS doesn’t want it legalized, but instead wants “a religious exemption” to abuse their wives? If a woman had to approve of the next wife and sign the license in the courthouse, the number of actual polygynist marriages would drop to a very, very small number. I doubt any man would have more than three wives ever, because that’s about the limit on the number of wives who could all agree.

  346. I think it’s just that the news makes us more aware of the number, Rebeckah. Go back 100 years and Nebraska is about as close to me as the moon. Now, anywhere on the earth is close as long as someone has a cellphone camera and an internet connection.

  347. The only real value of reading these people, Hugh included, is to try to understand the mindset that fuels this evil. Some of it can be controlled by the law – extreme actions such as sexual assault – but opinions are not so easily changed.

  348. The Huge McNut is easy to crack – take a Calvanist, sugar coat with narcissism and add a good dash of paranoia.

    Dont forget to cover with tin foil.

    Bake until done.

    Or, leave him half baked.

  349. TexasTwist,
    Thanks for the link to that article.

    Hey Willie, the FLDS has “terrorized hundreds of little children”

    Pedophilia is not a religion

  350. Yes, and the “based on a hoax” thing baffles me. DNA is now a hoax? We have evidence of real sexual assault and the police did not “plant” it.

  351. http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2009/dec/26/lawmaker-not-fazed-by-flds-ire-i-just-couldnt-be/

    God bless Texas!

  352. Basically, these sorts of people want to go back to a religion that was based in a culture in which women were property.

    …………………….

    I was watching a documentary on Afghanistan not long ago, and it struck me that the rural populations in that country are barely out of the stone age. And one reason for this, is that the female half the population is barred by religious doctrine from participating in the financial health of the society, beginning in childhood when they are denied anything beyond an elementary education.

    Our troops are there now, trying to keep the Taliban from returning to power. Our troops are fighting to keep Afghanistan women from being forced back into lives in which they were beaten with sticks if they appeared in public not wearing a burka.

    We believe in freedom of religion, but we also believe in the separation of church and state. Like the Taliban and the government of Iran, the FLDS believes the people should be ruled by self-appointed religious clerics/priests, NOT by an elected body.

    To all intents and purposes, Warren Jeffs is a Communist. He is hoping that the millions of Americans who don’t show him perfect obedience will be destroyed by earthquakes, tidal waves and other natural disasters, leaving our country “swept clean” for the FLDS Zion society, in which everything, including the women and children, is owned communally (well actually Warren would own everything)

    Like many apocolyptic groups, they thought it all was going to come crashing down in the year 2000. Oooops, time to re-groove.

    Reading his dictations, it becomes clear that Warren Jeffs is delusional to the point of insanity, in the same manner as Jim Jones and David Koresh.

    I don’t know about anybody else, but I’m not worried that the FLDS are going to get their wish and take over the country, but I don’t buy their story that they just want to be left alone to live peacefully . . . they’ve got BIG plans.

    They can claim that they are the hated and persecuted ones, but you don’t have to dig too deep into the beliefs to see who really are the haters, and how they themselves wish to persecute.

  353. Anon E Mouse,

    I already left a comment and they are holding it in moderation…go figure.

    Maybe they are going to let Trish moderate it herself? Perhaps we should check her tweets to see if she is off someplace for the weekend playing with Brooke.

    He’s another one who shouldn’t be allowed to play with sharp objects, like pens…

    I notice the San Angelo publication hasn’t picked up the story yet, maybe tomorrow? Or maybe they figured this chick out over there and are going to let Mr. Waller handle things locally?

    Both are owned by Scripps Interactive Newspapers Group.

  354. I don’t know what Trish Choate did to deserve your scorn, Boots, but I have a favorable opinion of her.

    I wouldn’t read anything into her article not being linked at either the San Angelo S-T or the Abilene Reporter News as everyone is working this weekend with minimal staff, leaving some things undone.

  355. This just in –
    Huge Ego (Cluster B Personality Disorders) Mc – Narcisstic / Histrionic / Paranoid has been forbidden to go onto his church’s property by order of the Presbyterian elders.

  356. “I don’t know what Trish Choate did to deserve your scorn, Boots…”

    You’re right, you don’t.

  357. Boots,
    What did Trish do ?
    I know that you are a reasonable person.

  358. I agree with TexasTwist.

    From what I know of Trish Choate she is on the side of justice not spin.

    She believes these trials are important.

  359. Fair enough, Boots.

    On the other hand, my experience with her has been positive.

  360. Fair enough, TexasTwist, fair enough.

  361. Damn, I hate this – who is Trish Choate?

  362. Leaving Trish behind for a moment: Lawmaker not fazed by FLDS ire
    Hilderbran says Texas will protect girls…

    Hilderbran is another BIG Texas hero in my book.

    Its not often a “lawmaker” gets up there in Austin and pushes for such good laws.

    I hope his office will consider further legislation, designed to protect cooperative polygamy survivors, from all religious and ethnic backgrounds.

  363. Ron,

    Trish Choate is the Washington DC correspondent for Scripps Howard News Service.

    The San Angelo, Abilene and Wichita Falls newspapers are all owned by Scripps Howard, as is the Corpus Christi newspaper.

  364. Trish’s newspaper bio:
    “Trish Choate is the regional Washington correspondent for the Times Record News and its sister papers in Abilene and San Angelo. She worked at the Times Record News more than 10 years before setting out for D.C. with her two cats, a futon still in the box and tons of books. She misses Texas but is making the best of it in the nation’s capital. She has a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree from Midwestern State University and likes to hike wearing a 35-pound backpack for fun.”

  365. Thanks for the info guys. Another question, has she covered this issue much?

    Apparently she’s done something to make Boots’ S list.

  366. Perhaps something we all can agree upon…

    The local San Angelo S-T news staff and Scripps Howard have done an excellent job providing coverage of the events related to YFZ.

    Ditto for the Eldorado Success.

    I only watch local television news on rare occasions, but apparently the Abilene stations must be giving these stories some air time.

    One of my local acquaintances is aware of Allen Keate receiving a 33-year sentence for his sexual assault conviction.

    She either read in the Abilene Reporter-News or saw it on an Abilene station.

    Her reaction?

    “Good for them in Schleicher County.”

  367. OMG

    I’m having a LOL moment. Now we know why there is traffic to Phundamentally Phlawed Pharisee’s site. He’s scared the crap out of the Presbyterians.

    Next time his narcissism surfaces about his blog, he needs a serious slap down.

  368. I don’t mean to upset my Christian friends, but more and more, I am tending to think that if anyone wants to base the law on any statement out of the Old Testament then that person is the enemy of common sense and civil rights. I don’t really need to know anything more about their opinion to believe that. Because what they really want is to impose their religion literally on everyone else and nothing good can come from that. Law has to be based on what is protecting the rights of all citizens; we need to oppose murder not because it is one of the Ten Commandments, but because every human being has the same right to live. And last I checked, women are still human beings.

  369. Choate has covered some of the events related to YFZ going back to last April, Ron.

    She was physically present at the 14-day hearing in April 2008 and also at Raymond Jessop’s trial.

    She has also written other related articles such as todays on Hilderbran, Darby and Willie and one about Dr. Lloyd Barlow.

  370. Who knew Hugh could be so entertaining?

    Today’s blog entry is one of the funniest ones I’ve ever read.

  371. Twist

    Lordy yes. Even if you generally try to avoid the spewings of the Pharisee, you need to at least go and read today’s post.

  372. Yes, it’s pretty amusing. It’s a shame that he is not taking this as a clue that he’s wrong, but is predictably making it some sign of a victory of his ideals over the status quo.

    Apparently people who have actually met the Pharisee in person also think he’s full of anger, unstable and possibly dangerous. I think I should get an apology from those who belittled my very similar concerns. Even in his protestations that he is not violent, he insinuates that he might inspire some other person to be violent in or at that church. So on the one hand he protests that he would not do something so low, on the other hand he maintains the threat that he can cause violence indirectly. If I were the church board, I’d attempt to get a real TRO – I think they have grounds.

  373. Betty, I’m a conservative Christian, spiritually and politically, but I mostly agree with you. Some of our original common law principles do come from what we, as Christians, call the Old Testament, a set of Scriptures that we share in common with Jews. But we do not believe in keeping every commandment found in the Old Testament. Unfortunately, a lot of religious kooks, Christian, Jewish and across the spectrum, take a precept or two and twist them into a doctrine to support their delusions.

  374. I see Hilderbran as a mixed bag. His laws make sense because the easiest manipulation is the “It’s OK – we’re married” dodge used by the FLDS.

    However, several of his public statements have been drop dead stupid (as well as sounding highly bigoted.)

    Overall, I’d say he’s a well meaning sort who overly plays to the lowest common denominator.

  375. Actually, TexasConnie, I disagree on the history of common and family law; I think very little of it, other than some introductory prayers, are based on either the old or the new testament. I think most of our common law comes from the Normans, through our English ancestors and in some states, from Napoleon. Although the Normans were nominally Christians, they ran their government more like their Viking forebears than like any Jews or Romans. We don’t require that a man marry a woman he rapes, we never have. But that’s in the OT.

    But I think the truth is that the common ground of what is or is not good is a territory where most religions are going to agree. Be kind and fair to each other; don’t cheat, steal, lie, rape or kill.

  376. Ron in Houston,

    “Overall, I’d say he’s a well meaning sort who overly plays to the lowest common denominator.”

    Yes indeed, I think you got exactly what you were supposed to out of the quotes from Representative Hildebran that Trish selected to share.

    Representative Hildebrand is the representative for Kerrville as well as Scleicher County, and this is where he makes his home.

    We like our law and order down here, and we like to keep things simple, too.

    I don’t see any shame in that at all.

  377. I’m not a fan of Calvinism, but I didn’t think they had any kind of corner on the market of repressing women.

  378. I don’t see any bigotry in matching the law to problems seen in a new population group. If we suddenly had a surge of gypsies in the US, you’d suddenly see a lot of local ordinances about where you can or cannot park your RV. No one really needs that now, because no one is concerned that a village of RV’s will spring up in a strip mall parking lot. In Europe, you have such laws on the books. It’s not a matter of racial hatred for Roma, but a common sense opposition to the health, safety and property issue of suddenly having a group of people squatting on private land.

  379. “I wanted to make it unappealing to them. I hoped they wouldn’t stay.”

    When a politician says that to a reporter, they should expect it to make the final cut.

    Credit where credit is due, though.

    Without the relevant changes, a 33-year sentence for Allen Keate would not have been possible. All things considered about the Lege, the statutes would not have been amended without Hilderbran’s efforts.

    And in fairness to Hilderbran and some others…it isn’t every day that a flock of polygamists roosts in one’s backyard in Texas.

    My reaction when I first learned that the FLDS prophet had moved to Schleicher County?

    “You’re kidding, right?”

    Not so, of course.

    I shudder to think what my county judge would say to the media in the event that anything like YFZ relocated in my county.

    Over the years, I have been in disagreement with Hilderbran on a number of issues, but when it comes to balancing land conservation with ownership rights, he is one of the best in the Lege.

  380. Yes indeed, I think you got exactly what you were supposed to out of the quotes from Representative Hildebran that Trish selected to share.

    It has nothing to do with the quotes from today’s article. Overall, those were pretty benign. However, he still appears to not be a very bright guy who is playing to the lowest common denominator.

    We like our law and order down here, and we like to keep things simple, too.

    Justice is not simple. You can’t just round people up gestapo style like your buddy Buster thinks Arizona should do. That’s simply stupid redneck talk from people again playing to, well, stupid rednecks.

  381. Betty it’s one thing to propose laws to solve problems that some group presents. It’s another thing to say I’m proposing laws to target a group of people.

    Twist – I agree that it must be difficult to wake up one day and see a large group of any sort of religious wackos in your neighborhood. I don’t disagree with most of the laws Hilderbran proposed in response to YFZ landing in his district. I just disagree with they way he proposed them.

  382. There is absolutely nothing remotely “gestapo” [may their names be erased] about Buster Johnson.

    Buster Johnson is a duly elected representative of the people of Mohave County, who has advocated real investigation of the FLDS crime family.

    His reward? He has been ignored and vilified by those who would like to keep the abuse of little girls up there quiet.

    Pine on about the complexities of the law all you wish, Ron, but once the laws are written down and put into code, I don’t know of any lawman who sees things as all that complicated.

    Did I see you break the speed limit? Yes. Here is your ticket.

    That’s just how simple law enforcement usually sees things.

  383. IN county where I live, there have been several prosecutions of teachers(male) and (female) who are now in prison for having sex with girls 15 and 16yrs old. The relationships evidently had been ongoing for a couple of years, without parents knowing.
    To me, there is NO difference between an ADULT male or female having sexual relations with underage boys or girls.
    Saying your married,(when you aren’t legally) makes no difference if your having sexual relation with underage girls and your over age 21.
    Im glad the laws were changed in Texas, Ive seen people prosecuted for the very thing that is happening with Flds, only these people aren’t a religious group at all. Just putting religion in front of a felony, doesn’t make it right.

  384. Not being from there, I’m not familiar with Hildebrand’s style. But I don’t see anything wrong with his law or being happy that it’s being applied to a man who did a two for one daughter trade with Warren Jeffs.

  385. I would just remind everyone, Mark Shurtleff and a couple of his people from his office made a trip to Texas in 2004, to speak the the Texas Legislature, recommending changes the marriage age laws here, Because of what he had delt with in Utah with this same group.
    He pretty much filled in Texas Legislature about Flds and how they had also changed the laws in Utah about this very thing.
    Now, people may not like the changes made, but they are enforcable to every race and group in texas.

  386. Next I like to see Federal legislation about home schooling.
    Same for every State, requiring a State curriculum, test and attendance until the students are at least 18.Supervised by independent accredited teachers.
    THAT alone would protect a lot of children in the FLDS and give them at least some tools to survive on the outside, should they decided to leave or get kicked out.

  387. Well, Huge McNut has earned his title as “Most unimproved parishioner, 2009…”

    Oh maybe there were a couple youngsters that got thrown in jail, like Cameron, but even they didnt earn a letter of rebuke.

    Which reminds me, what happened to Cameron, Hugh’s incarcerated robber – slash – burglarizing son?

    I hope he pleads guilty and faces the music.

    Huge Ego needs to do the same today, instead of playing games with his Church, decide if he belongs or not.

    I think its kinda obvious he doesnt earn the right to be on the same block as those good people, the little evil spammer that he is.

    Oh well, aint the first time someone lit a bomb in their own lap. Nigeria Fried Chicken McNuggets.

  388. I also noticed that McNutt seems to post just to hear himself spew. Of the 25 posts, most go with no comments at all. It’s like he is talking to himself. His online journal of hate andmisinformation.
    I had to laugh at several of a ‘banned sock puppet’s’ replies. Sucking up just doesn’t cover it. Both are pathetic.
    Hope all had a Merry Christmas, or holiday equivilant…

  389. I have read very similar statements by Hilderbran quoted in Trish’s article. He has basically said the exact same thing for years.

    I don’t think she included that one comment to make him look bad or make him look like a bigot.

    That is his opinion. He hasn’t wavered from it.

    If his constituents don’t have a problem with him and keep re-electing him, then that is their choice.

    At least he speaks his mind. Maybe he is just a country bumpkin.

    But he is their country bumpkin and they seem to like having him in office.

    At least he tries to protect children living in his state!

  390. Anon E Mouse,
    Is Hugh’s Covenant Orthodox Presbyterian Church the same as the mainstream Presbyterian Church?

  391. I have added three articles to my FLDS 101 blog that I hope will be three interesting topics after pouring through the WSJ Priesthood records.
    1 – Places of Refuge (R1,R17,R23), and the mission for the redemption of Zion
    2 – Warren in hiding. Where he went, what he did
    3 – Warren as marred servent? What his “heavenly session” are all about and my theory behind them.

    See: http://flds101.blogspot.com/

    I welcome any comments

  392. Betty,
    I didn’t realize that you had been belittled for your concern about your privacy IRT Hugh.

    I think you were right all along to be concerned. The guy is unstable IMO and he was “stalking” you in an inappropriate manner.

  393. FLDS101,
    I have read your 3 new articles. You did a great job supporting your theories with Warren’s dictations and other documentation.

    I think Warren might suffer from “Restless Leg Syndrome” and that might explain some of his thrashing about while he is sleeping (or in Warren lingo, during his “Heavenly Sessions”)

  394. New commenter here and curious about the following.

    The FLDS is paying for the lawyers for Keate and others. I am curious about professional ethics under the circumstances of the accused not paying for their own defense. Doesn’t that potentially create a conflict of interest between the bill-payer and the defendants? To whom is the lawyer actually responsible?

  395. I have a new theory about the YFZ temple bed. Read my article on Warren’s heavenly sessions. This hit me after again viewing the picture of the bed.

  396. Why did Warren spend so much time in motel rooms watching porn?
    It may not have been hard porn, but it certainly involved R-rated movies (He mention titles). He did mention in his record commenting once about full nudity. He mentioned several sexual movie topics. Also plenty of violence. He couched this as “training” for his wives, some sort of shock treatment to make them abhor the outside world. Assuming these naïve girls had never seen anything like this, it strikes me as very cruel treatment. But what struck me most is how many night he did this while on the road, sometimes with only himself and Naomie. He claimed that the Lord instructed him to do it to help him witness against the wicked world. There certainly seemed to be an addiction involved. Finally he even resorted to buying a TV and DVD player so they could watch more than just was on TV.

  397. Anonagain, that’s a very good question. Especially if the payer is one of the defendants, or a person of interest in another investigation.

  398. Yes, FLDS101, your last article made me think of the bed, also.

    I was also thinking about people who have had stigmata wounds. Most are dismissed as self inflicted wounds, but a few have been completely unexplained. It makes me wonder if someone’s mental state could actually cause the body to bleed, or in Warren’s case to have seizures. I wonder if he has them in jail.

  399. during the time i was at the raymond jessop trial, the person directing the attorneys was willie jessop and his notetaker, sam steed.

  400. ProudTexan,
    Thanks for confirming how versatile Willie is. I bet he has a really impressive resume”:

    First rate thug
    Cattleman
    Aspiring attorney
    Media personality
    Yes man

  401. Can we assume that Willie is not the brain behind all this, but maybe just the man delivering the envelope of money?

  402. he’s also the one delivering the notes on what to ask for. when they were questioning dr. beall, he passed a note to the attorneys to find out the names of those he interviewed who were FLDS.

  403. Oh is Sam the note taker I sat by?

    Gee…I’ll just have to pay more attention next time.

    This time all I was thinking about as I sat by him was how I thought he should be f*d in a** by a bull, like the rest of them…

    Happy prison time Allan, drop and gimme 33:)

    Ouch!

  404. wtexan;
    You would need to look at all of the companies owned and controlled by the flds members. Start with NewEra Manufacturing in the Las Vegas area which is controlled by Jack Wayman. Also look into Wendell Nielsen’s finances since he sold the company to Jack wayman. How much did he get for it? Was that reported as taxable income?

  405. It pains me to play sort of a Duane troll, but when you deal with a complicated issue like the FLDS you can’t just resolve it down to a solution like Buster Johnson proposed in this interview with Suzan Mazur:

    Law enforcement should go to every house and say: “Okay – everybody outside the house. Mothers stand with children. Okay, you’re the mother and this is your child.” And then you get the birth certificates. “You’re 36 and this child is 24, so obviously you were 12 – an underage marriage. It looks like you were 15, etc. Somebody did this.”

    And that way you can show rape’s been going on and is continuing. Along with polygamy. You can show it’s very incestuous.

    This is nothing more than the advocacy of gestapo tactics – round them up and say “papers, please.”

    Yes, there needs to be more investigation into the FLDS; however, to protect the liberty of everyone you can’t do it like a simpleton.

  406. Something tells me that “wtexan” is Duane sockpuppeting again.

  407. i was thinking the same thing ron.

  408. Ron, I haven’t heard anyone on this board (except for the annoying sock puppets) talking about busting in without a warrant and checking papers. I don’t think being FLDS is probable cause, nor should it be considered so. The law and LE have to be focused on behaviors that cause harm to society and to individuals and I think Hilderbran’s law does just that, regardless of what his rhetoric is.

  409. Betty – I agree with most of what you said. My only doubt is that I sometimes wonder if some folks don’t think that being FLDS = probable cause.

  410. That would be a sad miscarriage of justice.

    It’s a problem whenever you have a group whose pattern of behavior turns destructive. Like inner city gangs. To pretend that they don’t exist or to ignore that their purpose is largely criminal would be to put the public at risk. But to target them without due process puts our whole system at risk. So LE has to walk a line of preparedness without prejudice which is not easy to do. Sort of a damned if you don’t, damned if you do.

  411. wtexan is spewing racist rant in order to make those who are concerned with illegal practices of FLDS look racist

  412. Duane you coward sockpuppet, come out now.

  413. wtexan is spewing racist rant in order to make those who are concerned with illegal practices of FLDS look racist

    Which is exactly Duane’s modus operendi.

    What I can’t understand is why Duane persists in this argument when there is now abundant evidence of those illegal activities. I mean, I understood about a “rush” to judgment. However, now the judgment is in and it’s doesn’t look very good.

  414. Duane you ignorant doodiehat.

  415. How does the saying go, Ron? “Insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome?” I think Duane really thinks that one of these days he’s going to try one of these rants and people with agree with him so that he can run to another blog (Bill or Hugh’s at a guess) and get pats on the head when he tattles to them about how terrible we are. At least Al is just two faced. He post one way here and another way there but as far as I know he doesn’t run from blog to blog tattling and trying to stir up trouble. Why does it seem like the majority of the FLDS and their supporters are about 12 years old mentally or else they’re petty tyrants AND 12 years old emotionally? Every time Willie whinges on about how unfair everyone is being to him I cringe because he and his fellow FLDS look like such children because of it.

    (Charlie Brown, he’s a clown, he’s a clown, that Charlie Brown.
    He’s gonna get caught, just you wait and see”

    “Why’s everybody always picking on me?”)

  416. wtexan posts have been put in the trash bin and the poster is further banned – ADMIN

  417. wtexan posts have been put in the trash bin and the poster is further banned – ADMIN

    Damn, I still want to know if it was Duane. Although, I’d imagine he’s gotten a little smarter after having been busted and is now going through a proxy to make his IP anonymous.

  418. So duane borrowed his nephews computer in an attempt to sneak on huh?

    Hey duane, ya need to go over and console the Huge McNut, it appears he needs help only an athiest can give.

    Bring him his new theme song, its going to be his present to himself for the new year revolution 2010.

  419. Ron

    His rant on Mexicans was a good clue it was indeed duane.

    Could he and Hugh both be in crisis at the same time?

  420. “I don’t think being FLDS is probable cause, nor should it be considered so.”

    Betty, nope but being a polygamist is probable cause. To say Utah and Arizona don’t have the means to identify those practicing the illegal act of polygamy is disingenuous to say the least and a plain dang lie at the most. The Safety Net has conferences and symposiums for them, on how to “safely collect welfare benefits” all the time. Duh?

    Ron,

    Again, I will continue to take exception to a comparison between what Buster suggested and “Gestapo” tactics.

    The only thing they have in common is a request for “papers”.

    Buster Johnson has been up there for years talking to the women who have managed to get out with their children. His desire to walk into a town, where we KNOW that child rape is a crime that takes place almost daily, is a desire to identify and free the victims.

    I don’t have any doubt that if LE had come into town when Flora was a little girl and called everyone out, she would have been one of the first to say, “SAVE ME! SAVE ME!”

    So I guess what you have here is a question of intent. Is Buster’s stated intent to harass and persecute? Or is his intent to try to identify and save the victims we already know are there.

    I guess it all goes back to the Utah and Arizona position that as long as they are using their religion to justify their continual rape of little girls, it’s all “okay”. After all, as long as you can get the victims to say they aren’t victims at all…no harm no foul, right? “She wanted it”.

  421. Anon E Mouse,
    Is Hugh’s Covenant Orthodox Presbyterian Church the same as the mainstream Presbyterian Church?

    ……………………………

    Good question, but I wouldn’t know. I try not to go to his site too much because I don’t want to reward him with the hits.

    I have an extremely hard time believing he is any kind of Christian at all.

    From my church’s website:

    As a Presbyterian church, _____ is part of what’s known as the Reformed branch of the Christian Church. Other “branches” would include other Protestant churches (Lutheran, for example), Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Pentecostalism.

    Emerging from the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century, Reformed theology seeks to ground itself on the revelation of God in and through Jesus Christ and the witness of the Apostles as recorded in the New Testament.

    Though written centuries ago, The Apostles’ Creed provides a classical summation of Christian teaching that expresses well our basic theological orientation.

    “I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

    And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.

    Perhaps my favorite part of our service is singing the doxology:

    Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
    Praise Him, all creatures here below;
    Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
    Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

  422. I have added three articles to my FLDS 101 blog that I hope will be three interesting topics after pouring through the WSJ Priesthood records.
    1 – Places of Refuge (R1,R17,R23), and the mission for the redemption of Zion
    2 – Warren in hiding. Where he went, what he did
    3 – Warren as marred servent? What his “heavenly session” are all about and my theory behind them.

    See: http://flds101.blogspot.com/

    I welcome any comments

    …………………………..

    The FLDS101 blog is fascinating and informative. Maybe it can be added to the blog roll on this site?

  423. Boots,

    How can you tell, legally, who is or is not a polygamist from outside the home? If you follow a paper trail, for instance welfare and/or health clinic records then that’s a reasonable path to me. Just assuming that you can bust down someone’s door and check for papers because they wear funny clothes is exactly the sort of thing that American was founded to prevent IMHO. I’m all in favor of a special task force to research ways to stop crime that we all know is there. I’m not OK with a no knock warrantless fishing expedition.

  424. If you look up Orthodox Presbyterian on the internet, you will find that it is a separate organization from most Presbyterians and it is fairly small with fewer than 100 congregations in the US.

  425. Betty, nope but being a polygamist is probable cause.

    Total unadulterated BS. Many people who belong to polygamist religions are not polygamists. In order to use law enforcement against these folks you would need to at least show that they are actually in a polygamist relationship. Since I assume no such evidence is in the possession of law enforcement, then no probable cause exists.

    Again, I will continue to take exception to a comparison between what Buster suggested and “Gestapo” tactics.

    Take all the exception you want Missy. Saying law enforcement should go to every house of a religious group because of their beliefs is exactly what the Gestapo did to the Juden.

    So I guess what you have here is a question of intent. Is Buster’s stated intent to harass and persecute? Or is his intent to try to identify and save the victims we already know are there.

    It matters not what your intent is. See, we have this thing called the constitution. If you violate that you’ve broken the law regardless of what your intent is.

    I guess it all goes back to the Utah and Arizona position that as long as they are using their religion to justify their continual rape of little girls, it’s all “okay”. After all, as long as you can get the victims to say they aren’t victims at all…no harm no foul, right? “She wanted it”.

    No one is saying that at all. However, justice in a complex society is not as you want to make it, i.e. “simple.” You can’t just go busting down door with guns a blazing.

    Don’t you get it? That’s what Arizona did in 1953 that allowed so much to continue. That’s what CPS did that has made folks in LE reluctant to end up like CPS did with large amounts of egg on their faces.

    However, the rednecks seem to prefer the going in with guns blazing. They seem to like it so politicians will play to that base.

  426. wtexan is spewing racist rant in order to make those who are concerned with illegal practices of FLDS look racist

    ………………………

    Oh the irony, seeing that Warren Jeffs is a flaming racist.

    I think it was on FLDS101 I read that one reason that all FLDS marriages must be arranged marriages is to make sure nobody marries a non-white person.

    Speaking of racists, the Southern Poverty Law Center got rid of the Aryan Nations in Hayden Lake, Idaho, by suing them into bankruptcy.

  427. I agree that the suggestion of “knocking” on every door and asking for “papers” is a ridiculously bad suggestion and just wrong.

    But there are legal ways to help the victims and to enforce the laws against polygamy. The first step would be to install independent REAL law enforcement into the community, not on the outskirts of the community. Utah and Arizona needs to set up police stations INSIDE the cities of Hildale, Colorado City and Centennial Park, staffed with county police officers. Then these independent police officers need to ensure that all state and federal laws are enforced to the fullest extent.

  428. The racism is HUGE and is doctrine of Joseph Smith. So, its not just the FLDS who believe that its the whole LDS church that believes the racist rant. Except, the LDS church, due to boycott of BYU sports, changed their doctrine about blacks in 1978.

  429. FLDS 101 added to the blogroll – ADMIN

  430. Good points, LadySadie.

  431. The first step would be to install independent REAL law enforcement into the community, not on the outskirts of the community.

    You guys know that I’m not big in vast conspiracies; however, I have to wonder what in the hell the Mohave County Board of Supervisors thought would happen when they allowed Colorado City to incorporate in 1985.

    I can see practical non-corrupt reasons for allowing them to incorporate, but the long term consequences seem pretty clear to me.

  432. Ron, again I take exception, what guns were blazing? Where in the statement did Buster say to point guns at people? He asked for documentation to be gathered to identify potential rape victims.

    Colorado City & Centennial Park, AZ:
    January 2005 292 open cases for food stamps.
    Total of 2,618 recipients. That’s about 10 per family. Cost: $189,759 for the month to Mohave County taxpayers.

    Polygamy forces women and children into poverty. The UN knows that already. So here you have it in Colorado City, in black and white. Either the UN is right and these women and children have been forced into poverty by the practice of polygamy, or they are all guilty of welfare fraud. Pick one.

    Are you telling me that the local government who is paying the bill for this forced poverty doesn’t have the information to clearly identify who is practicing polygamy?

    You have 10 children, you live in a city controlled by an imprisoned “prophet” who teaches you MUST participate in polygamy, and right there on your paperwork you claim you don’t have any idea who is the father of all your children?

    Yeah, why on earth would I suspect you’re a concubine involved in a felonious act?

    I guess wondering makes me “gestapo”. Whatever, Ron.

  433. When you say: Law enforcement should go to every house and say: “Okay – everybody outside the house. Mothers stand with children. Okay, you’re the mother and this is your child.” And then you get the birth certificates. – you’re implying a use of force.

    If you support this then, yes, I’d call you part of the Gestapo.

    Buster Johnson said nothing more than stupid redneck talk by someone who obviously should not be in a position of authority. Maybe there’s a reason he’s an EX cop.

  434. It’s like looking for meth labs by going into every trailer that has someone with biker regalia living in it. Not probable cause, even though it might over all net a few good busts.

  435. “-you’re implying a use of force.”

    No, that’s your very colorful and imaginative *interpretation* of it and I think it’s obvious you have a problem in general with both cops and rednecks.

    I’ve let you slide on the “stupid rednecks” thing for a while, now, but really you need to get a grip.

    I know Buster Johnson and he is a good man and a decent human being with a tremendous amount of integrity and a deep compassion for the children being victimized in his county.

    Wanting to identify rape victims, when you know they are there, is not stupid, or ugly or “gestapo”.

    If this cult had been teaching its members they must sodomize little boys en mass to get to heaven, and it had been raising them in seclusion in the desert so the boys would willingly submit to it, it would have been raided by SWAT teams long ago.

    But these are just little GIRLS and that’s what they’re here for, don’t you know, to be raped.

    They don’t deserve the same protection and investigation little boys would get from the crime of organized child rape, do they Ron?

    Asking people to step outside their door and provide documentation which can show who has or has not been RAPED is not the same thing as forcing people onto cattle cars bound for extermination camps…and I highly resent the knee jerk liberal implication that it is.

    Buster is an ex-cop because he was wounded in the line of duty.

    I guess now you must really hate him and think he is a redneck idiot.

  436. Boots

    I’ve let you slide on the “stupid rednecks” thing for a while, now, but really you need to get a grip.

    I’m sorry but if the label fits – then perhaps it’s appropriate. I didn’t pick his words – he did.

    I know Buster Johnson and he is a good man and a decent human being with a tremendous amount of integrity and a deep compassion for the children being victimized in his county.

    I can’t say what type of human being he is. All I can do is make judgments on what he’s said. And excuse me but it ain’t pretty sweetheart.

    Wanting to identify rape victims, when you know they are there, is not stupid, or ugly or “gestapo”.

    Accusing people of being rapists when you don’t have any proof is not only stupid, it is very ugly and exactly the sort of tactics used by the gestapo.

    If you’ve got real proof then it should be acted upon; however, guilt by association is not proof.

    They don’t deserve the same protection and investigation little boys would get from the crime of organized child rape, do they Ron?

    Don’t be stupid – you know I’ve never implied any such thing.

    Asking people to step outside their door and provide documentation which can show who has or has not been RAPED is not the same thing as forcing people onto cattle cars bound for extermination camps…and I highly resent the knee jerk liberal implication that it is.

    When you don’t have any proof that someone is actually being raped then you’re simply rounding folks up. Yes Capt Renault – we’ll round up the usual suspects as you request…

    Buster is an ex-cop because he was wounded in the line of duty.

    I guess now you must really hate him and think he is a redneck idiot.

    Again – stop being inane – I know nothing of why he was wounded – he could be a hero. All I know is that someone who is an ELECTED public official and then says to go to every house and force everyone outside should not have a badge or any real authority over another human being. They are a danger to civilized society.

  437. Boots, I am sure that Buster Johnson is a good man and that his heart is in the right place, but that being said, to suggest that you go to every house in a town and demand everyone line up “mothers with their children” then produce birth certificates is beyond ridiculous and very much “gestapo” behavior.

  438. In Buster and Boots world:

    Cops show up and say:

    Okay – everybody outside the house. Mothers stand with children.

    Folks inside the house respond:

    I’m sorry – I don’t want to come outside.

    Cops respond:

    Oh, OK. Ta ta for now

    Boots – if you believe that then I’ve got some wonderful property in Florida to sell you.

  439. “Asking people to step outside their door and provide documentation which can show who has or has not been RAPED…”

    “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

  440. Another legal thing that could be done, the states of Utah and Arizona could enforce existing rules regarding welfare. If such a large population in the towns are on public assistance then welfare offices should be set up IN the towns, if a woman applies for assistance for her child/children and does not list the father, the state has legal ways of finding the father or refusing assistance. If multiple women are claiming the same address and the same man as father of their children then probable cause exists to investigate polygamy/bigamy charges.

  441. “Law enforcement should go to every house and say: “Okay – everybody outside the house. Mothers stand with children. Okay, you’re the mother and this is your child.” And then you get the birth certificates.”

    And the probable cause would be?

  442. Does Utah and Arizona have laws regarding registering births? Enforce the existing laws and there is no need to violate anyone’s constitutional rights.

  443. Sadie

    There is lots that could and should be done. However, it has to be done in a reasoned, methodical manner. I’d be willing to bet that CPS has not been back to the ranch for welfare checks on girls aged 11-17. Why? They over reacted and now are scared of negative publicity.

    Greg Abbot is taking the cut the head of the beast approach. In my opinion this only weakens the group it doesn’t ultimately solve the problem.

  444. what would ultimately solve the problem ron?

  445. Agreed Ron, instead of having “groups” advocating extreme (not to mention illegal) measures, what is needed are law makers, law enforcement personnel and advocacy groups lobbying for and insisting existing laws and rules be enforced.

  446. I think basing your entire opinion of a man’s intelligence and integrity based on one comment, without ever speaking to him for yourself is inane, Ron.

    I think building all sorts of very ugly implications based on one comment is inane, too, Ron.

    Have you asked him any details? Have you called him to ask if he wants to do this without any proof, any investigation or any warrants?

    Child rape happens in Colorado City, Arizona all the time. Lucky for the rapists and their accomplices, we have people like you to make sure their rights are fully protected.

    Too bad for the little girls and all.

    Polygamy is a crime and there is plenty of good evidence that it is being carried out, daily, along with child rape up there.

    Buster is a hero, Ron. He’s been set up, ridiculed, threatened and abused by plenty of people up there, in and out of government.

    They all have one thing in common, too, like you, they’re just trying to protect those poor people’s civil rights. Never mind the civil rights of children not to be raped. It’s much more important that we not ask people for their papers, so as to avoid looking “gestapo like”.

  447. what would ultimately solve the problem ron?

    Geez, I don’t know. I assume education is the ultimate solution. It appears to be gross stupidity caused by blind obedience to authority. To the extent the head of the beast has prevented education from happening cutting off the head is a good start.

    Again though, really, can you educate someone who has a closed mind? I don’t know.

  448. And LadySadie, my defense of Buster Johnson should in no way be taken to mean that I, or my “group” approves of an idea simply floated out into a conversation with a reporter several years ago.

    I hope everyone is at least clear on that.

  449. i think education is a great start, but given the fact that the “authority” figure who has prevented the education of the masses is in jail, but still in charge, even cutting off the head of the beast may not help, until his ability to “lead” the people has been cut off.

    I think regulations to homeschooling could help. In Texas, for example, you aren’t allowed to just quit school unless you are 18. You can graduate before you are 18, but except for that, you are still supposed to be in some form of education. Maybe something as simple as monitoring the older children at the ranch for their education.

    A perfect example is Teresa Jeffs. She was married at 15 and suddenly a “teacher” of kinder and 1st grade students. She should have still been a student herself.

  450. I think basing your entire opinion of a man’s intelligence and integrity based on one comment, without ever speaking to him for yourself is inane, Ron.

    Boots – I don’t know if the man is intelligent. I’m sure Hitler was quite intelligent to get where he got. I also know nothing about his integrity. We’re all mixed bags. However, forcing folks outside of their homes when you have no real proof they’ve done anything wrong is not what I’d characterize as a act by a person of “integrity.”

    Child rape happens in Colorado City, Arizona all the time. Lucky for the rapists and their accomplices, we have people like you to make sure their rights are fully protected.

    News flash honey. Child rape occurs everywhere. So, everyone should be forced outside and all of are children should be given SANE exams because we MIGHT, just MIGHT be a child rapist? Scary.

    Buster is a hero, Ron. He’s been set up, ridiculed, threatened and abused by plenty of people up there, in and out of government.

    I’m sure in your borderline abuse victim world of black and white he is a hero. He’s certainly not any hero of mine and his words make him highly suspect to me.

    It’s much more important that we not ask people for their papers, so as to avoid looking “gestapo like”.

    If you’ve got real proof then we need to bash down the door immediately and not ask for papers. Otherwise you’re on some wild a$$ed goose chase for some bogey man rapist.

  451. Geez, how did I forget this stupid redneck comment?

    Again, from this interview:

    I think that these people basically are so hard core that they cannot be allowed back into normal society. They need to be allowed to die out completely.

    Hmmm, yes, there is a context to this statement; however, it doesn’t stop it from being well in the realm of “stupid redneck talk.”

  452. oh man. I’ve been reading with much interest. I like Buster.

    Sometimes I think that we’ve all tried so very hard to be politically correct that we are now wrong. just plain wrong.
    I don’t know Buster personally but I got hand it to the man. He stood up and talked about the evils concerning this group. The way he stated his feelings made some heads turn. Good!! Some people jumped on the band-wagon because of the comments he made. Good. Awareness is the key.

    In the outside world we have to show ID to cash a check, rent a movie, go to a movie, apply for assistance, enter a hospital, use our credit cards. They haven’t zoomed in on us. We aren’t targets. It is everyday life out here. And it is for our protection.
    I don’t think it is too much to ask those in the FLDS to do the same.
    Utah and Arizona get matching monies from the Federal Government for those on certain programs. Why should they have their own set of rules? They shouldn’t.

    I had called Shurtleffs office I think last year or the year before and I asked what the problem was down there? Why can’t they go after those that are abusing the system and breaking the laws. She was very serious and as I said a very nice lady but her comment was that they didn’t have the resources to do such a thing. I told her I would volunteer my vacation time and come down to help. Free. Never got a reply back.
    They aren’t doing it because they don’t want to do it. Period.

    What I find really fascinating is that they have only zoomed in Warrens clan. There is the Kingstons, Allreds, Johnsons and so many more. And they continue to allow the same BS go on year after year. They let the victim list grow and the politicans get fatter. They can’t even sit straight as their money pockets make them sit at a lean. jmo

  453. And LadySadie, my defense of Buster Johnson should in no way be taken to mean that I, or my “group” approves of an idea simply floated out into a conversation with a reporter several years ago.

    I hope everyone is at least clear on that.

    The “crawfishing” begins. Come on Boots. Put Buster back on the board of directors where he belongs.

  454. “…go to every house and say: “Okay – everybody outside the house. Mothers stand with children….”

    is much different than showing identification to write a check.

    One involves a privilege that can be denied, the other a constitutional right that should not be denied.

  455. “News flash honey.Child rape occurs everywhere.”

    Yep, its just not organized like it is up there. One minute you’re 14 and worried about your spelling test and the next you are being fitted for a wedding gown so you can be forced by everyone in your life, into “marrying” your first cousin.

    I wonder if Elissa Wall would have minded someone showing up on her “wedding day” to ask for papers. From what I can tell, she would have run into the arms of anyone who would have been willing to actually protect her. Same with Flora, too.

    Instead, their abusers were neatly protected and they got continually raped.

    How convenient for the rapists that nobody had any “proof” of what was going on.

    I know Buster personally, so I figure that puts me in a much better position to ascertain his intentions and character than you can by a drive by quote in an article.

    You have done your level best to demonize him here, which is a shame.

    There was nothing screwed up about the Texas raid on the YFZ. The Texas Rangers were professional and no one was hurt.

    The screw ups all seemed to come from the bleeding heart CPS folks at the top of the ladder, who were more than anxious to invite corrupted Utah officials into our state to tell us how to deal with polygamy….ie, “give them all back and pretend you don’t know what’s happening to those little girls. It’s a great plan and has worked out well for us for a hundred years now. We even have too many doing it to prosecute them, now!”.

  456. You have done your level best to demonize him here, which is a shame.

    No it’s not a shame. He is quite worthy of being painted with all the brushes that I’ve painted him.

    He is either:

    1. Really, really stupid to be saying what he did; OR
    2. Saying what he really means in which case he would be both stupid and quite a scary person.

  457. So Boots why is your buddy Buster no longer on the tri-Leap BOD?

    Want to spin us a yarn on that one? Huh, Sweetie?

  458. I don’t think it is too much to ask those in the FLDS to do the same.

    Yes it is. Last time I checked they didn’t stop being American citizens because they subscribe to the FLDS belief system.

    I’m sure the Romans didn’t think it was too much to require the Christians to prove they weren’t cannibals. However, back then when you didn’t comply they fed you to the lions.

    I guess if you ask real nice and promise not to feed them to the lions than that makes it all OK?

  459. The screw ups all seemed to come from the bleeding heart CPS folks at the top of the ladder

    Exactly 100% wrong. The screw up was the (dare I say “ignorant redneck”?) zealots who thought they should force everyone outside and created a PR nightmare that CPS is still trying to run from.

  460. Ron – I think you need to take into consideration the timing of the interview in which Buster made those comments. I personally know that at that time, other than the presence of Gary Engels, there was no outside law enforcement whatsoever in the twin towns.

    It also appeared as though no one – law makers, law enforcement of either state or the southern Utah media wanted anything to do with investigating or bringing to light any abuses or crimes that were thought to be occuring.

    I personally think Buster is a good man. Knowing that he couldn’t do anything about what he was hearing about (child rapes, questions concerning the number of child deaths, etc.) must have made him feel overwhelmed by the need to have someone outside investigate.

  461. nearthecreek

    I understand context. He’s still an elected public official who should have an understanding of the constitution. I stand by every brush I painted him with in this discussion.

    Frustration is not an excuse to engage in stupid redneck talk.

  462. nearthecreek, as I said I am sure Buster Johnson is a good man and his heart is in the right place. What is needed is active enforcement of current laws, lobbying is needed to force government officials to do their jobs. Citizens need to be more active and if an official is not doing the job they were elected/hired for then they need to be replaced with someone who will do the job. Keeping the situation in the public eye, not letting the bs of the flds pr campaign go unchallenged is a very big reason there has not been a total repeat of the sweeping away of the 1953 raid. Putting this at the national level and keeping pressure on Utah and Arizona is what will make the difference.

  463. Ron said: “I guess if you ask real nice and promise not to feed them to the lions than that makes it all OK?”

    What lions?

    What I am saying is that the members from these groups should be held accountable and follow the laws. The same laws you and I follow.

    For how many years I’ve been tap dancing around certain things because I don’t understand some of the actions taking place or not taking place.

    Buster made his comments straight up. Maybe that is what is needed to finally fix the problems. Talking straight up. No more dancing. No more soft shoe.

    Why weren’t there cameras in the courtroom?
    Why haven’t we seen Warren Jeffs since his sentencing day in Judge Shumates courtroom.
    Why is Willie the spokesperson?
    How much more time do the Feds need before they start clamping down on the higher ups?
    What happened to Dan Fischers son?
    Zach Ruble?
    Mr. Nelson?
    Are there crop circles in Washington County?
    What’s the deal with all the small plane crashes?
    Why didn’t ConchoValley show their video from the day that Keate got sentenced?
    Is Willie working with the Feds?

  464. Walton

    I think what we’re talking about is forcing people out of their houses and requiring them to show the “title” to their children.

    I’m proud of the Texas Attorney General for taking on the FLDS. However, I’m also proud of the manner in which Greg Abbot’s office has done this. They have proceeded in a manner that will never generate either positive spin or claims of religious discrimination.

    Can more be done? Sure, but no matter what else you do, it must be done in such a manner as to prevent anymore puff pieces from Oprah. That is not a “simple” task. It needs to be done in a reasoned calculated manner.

  465. I agree with you both Ron and LadySadie. As an elected official, he should have known better than make those comments and I am certain he regrets making them.

    Unfortunately, we can’t seem to get citizens of nearby communities to insist on greater law enforcement or investigation into who is receiving welfare benefits, etc. You’ve got to remember that the majority of people living in this area are mormons – most were born into the church and many have ancestors who practiced polygamy. Ultimately, the belief that the LDS will live polygamy in heaven is behind many people turning a blind eye.

    I think the establishment of a federal polygamy task force that could be located in or near the twin towns might be the best way to get some of the most pressing issues investigated – possibly starting with some survelliance at the clinic in Hildale. The clinic is a public facility, so there shouldn’t be any concern about privacy rights, etc.

  466. I can’t say that I know Buster, but I sense his frustration in the interview situation quoted above. What he said was most unfortunate, and I cannot say that I agree with his statement.
    We are all frustrated by the human rights violations that go on in fundamentalist polygynous religious sects, but violating a group’s right to privacy without due cause (such as a complaint) is simply
    trying to correct injustice with more injustice. It will not succeed.
    In the words of the Buddha,from the first chapter of the Dhammapada, for my “closeted Buddhist” friend, Ron in Houston :
    “Hate never conquered hate, only love conquers hate, this is the law, ancient and immutable.”
    The answer is educating the public about the medically documented negative effects of polygyny on women and children, setting a firm lower age limit on marriage (as close to skeletal maturity for women as possible), and insisting on successful completion of a standardized high school curriculum by age 17 – 18 for all.

  467. “I think what we’re talking about is forcing people out of their houses and requiring them to show the “title” to their children.

    Which in many many cases they would never even be able to do. Take Flora’s own mother for instance, who was forced to relinquish custody of six of her newborn girls over to Uncle Fred’s concubines. Not only are women reassigned at the prophet’s pleasure, children are as well.

    Ron, is it legal for me to repetitively hand my newborn babies over to someone else [no adoption papers, no nothing], as long as I believe I’m getting heavenly brownie points for it? And, is it okay if I just let them fill in the birth certificate with those other people’s names, no harm no foul?

    Gee, I placed a baby for adoption once many years ago, right after her birth, and I sure had to sign a LOT of papers, too.

    Ron, I’m not exactly sure what I’ve done to piss in your Wheaties today, but let me explain why Buster is no longer on our BOD.

    Buster was only on there to begin with as a personal favor to me. He told me from the get go that he would go on the paperwork only until I found a suitable replacement.

    Buster is targeted, continually, by pro-polygamy forces up there and some of the stuff I saw him go through was nightmarish, especially in the character assassination department.

    At the time I asked him to step down from the position, he had been nominated by the new Governor of Arizona for a spot on a cabinet position. He was undergoing a financial rectal exam and didn’t need any complications with AAAP donations to ad to things. Our current president is also sitting in the position as a personal favor to me, and will most likely be replaced over the next year.

    I’m always happy to answer questions Ron, even if I am just a “stupid redneck”.

  468. Love and compassion, everyone, love and compassion, and unity, for the goal….

  469. Agreed Susan the MD, education is the key, not just to the members of these polygamous groups but to the public in general. Truthfully, how many of us outside of Utah were even aware that there were entire groups of people practicing polygamy before the flds situation was brought to the forefront? I never even thought about it. So it is going to take people all over the United States such as you and I continuing to educate ourselves, our elected officials and the public in general on the vast negative effects of this practice. It is going to take the average citizen of Utah and Arizona put their “voices” to work by not allowing their elected officials to ignore the problem. The voting capacity of the average citizen is a very powerful tool.

  470. Lady Sadie,
    I have now started a Yahoo Group which contains medical articles on the effect of polygyny on women and families. Here is the link if you wish to join the group, you are most welcome :

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TripleAP/

    I learned first hand about the negative effects of polygyny on women over 12 years ago, when I first treated Muslim women involved in polygynous relationships in NYC. Not one of them consented to their involvement in polygyny. I tried to help these women, and found no assistance or support from the local mosque in my endeavors. I have no clinical experience or contact with Mormon polygamists of any kind.
    We must educate the public as well as the legislators, as you said, and to achieve that end, I have started the Yahoo Group.
    With love and compassion,
    Susan

  471. Straight up…

    “Why weren’t there cameras in the courtroom?”

    Texas law requires consent of both the prosecution and the defense. To my knowledge, no one has made a formal request and if they do, I suspect it will be denied based upon either (or both) parties not providing consent.

    “Why haven’t we seen Warren Jeffs since his sentencing day in Judge Shumates courtroom.”

    Warren Jeffs was in the Mohave County courtroom earlier this month for a hearing.

    “Why is Willie the spokesperson?”

    No idea and he is a good example of a fool making public statements that might be better left unmade.

    “How much more time do the Feds need before they start clamping down on the higher ups?”

    No idea.

    “What happened to Dan Fischers son?”
    “Zach Ruble?”
    “Mr. Nelson?”

    No idea.

    “Are there crop circles in Washington County?”

    Oooooooooooh, boy. What you may be thinking of are alfalfa pivots that appear as circles on google maps.

    “What’s the deal with all the small plane crashes?”

    Small aircraft are more dangerous than say, commercial airliners.

    “Why didn’t ConchoValley show their video from the day that Keate got sentenced?”

    Have you asked them?

    “Is Willie working with the Feds?”

    Probably not.

  472. The General Public might be more aware of the situation IF cameras were allowed in the courtroom or the very least allowed to show the coverage that they have already taped. jmo

    Many people have been aware of the situation in Utah and Arizona. It was made public by people like Flora, Carolyn, the Lost Boys, Mike Watkiss, Brooke Adams and so many others that dared speak out. And yes, even Buster Johnson.

    It is taking people like this blog owner, Ron in Houston, Blues and yes even Wild Bill to provide a space to cover all angles of this massive web of lies. The FLDS.

    According to the SanAngelo Willie made the comment that the FLDS has been around for 150 years. Slip of the tongue? Does he even know the history of the FLDS?

    Puppets on a string we are. Puppets on a string.

  473. Texastwist you must have been posting while I was. Thanks for your reply.

  474. You’re welcome, Walton.

  475. Normally I only lurk, but I can answer your question about the the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC.) The OPC is not a mainline church.

    The OPC broke away from and/or was pushed out of the northern mainline Presbyterian church in the 1930s. (Think, big fight) In the 30s, there were two mainline US Presbyterian denominations, one in the North and another group in the South. Originally the new denomination (OPC) had another name, but the mainline denomination sued the break-off group because the name was too similar to it’s own name. Unfortunately, the break-off group chose then chose to use “orthodox” in it’s changed name, for the OPC is not related to orthodox catholic groups, but is closer to the Free Church of Scotland. In the US, The OPC is now closest to the Presbyterian Church in America, the church which broke off from the Southern Presbyterian Church (PCA) in the 1970s. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Presyterian, a well-known TV preacher, was from PCA. A few years ago these two Presbyterian groups even spoke of merging.

    I could write a lot, but I will only make three comments. Originally the OPC had as it’s leader a man who had been the president of Princeton Divinity school. At that time, the OPC was a conservative version of the mainline group. However in recent years, I find that OPC churches, especially those found in heavily PCA church areas (the deep South, for instance), have become a little strange (goofy?). Maybe they trying too hard to be different from their rivals? A poor example of strange is the Florida OPC minister who killed an abortion clinic doctor in Florida about twenty years ago. (Hmm…more nutty than strange in this instance.) Anyway, for the most part, many things said about Baptists or Missouri Synod Lutherans could be said about the PCA or the OPC churches.

  476. As to the cameras in the courtroom question, i think it is up to the judge. i know of no cameras in any courtroom in the tom green county judicial area which inlcudes schleicher, coke, and irion.

    i don’t even know if there has ever been a request for cameras in the courtroom for the flds cases. do you know if such a request was filed?

  477. First of all, to be completely honest, most people in the united states aren’t concerned about Flds, they are more engrossed in their own lives, their own children, whether they will have a job next year, how to pay the bills mounting up in their own little worlds.
    Sad but true! This country, USED to care about other people, neighbors, strangers they had never met. Not so much any longer. Sad but true!
    Most don’t give a crap unless something like this happens in their won state, And im just being real and honest here. You can’t make people hear you if they aren’t willing to hear. The ones who do care, don’t really know how to make a difference. They don’t like what is happening to Flds children or the fact most give away or kick out their children who refuse to fall at the feet of the prophet.
    I have scanned many newspapers througout this country, searching for reports of any kind on FLDS,, News Flash! Few newspapers carry any story and the ones who do, get it from the AP. Short, sweet and end of story.

  478. “Another legal thing that could be done, the states of Utah and Arizona could enforce existing rules regarding welfare.”

    Excellent thought, LadieSadie! I like the reasoning in your whole entry on this. I hope some officials in Utah and Arizona (and elswhere) are paying attention. 🙂

  479. Again, I have to bring up the fact that most people in Southern Utah (and most of Utah, for that matter) are mormon, and for a lot of folks, they view the way the FLDS live on Earth as the way faithful mormons will live in heaven. I don’t think there is anything anyone can do to change the views of mormons in Utah and Arizona.

    It is so common for people here to have ancestral roots in polygamy that it isn’t seen as all that abnormal.

    I myself am one of 42,000 decendents of Benjamin F. Johnson, a mormon pioneer who had seven wives. One of his wives was a woman named Melissa LeBaron. Apparently, several of these LeBarons now live in a polygamous community in Mexico.

  480. I believe you are right, PT.

    Consent by both parties is required in civil cases, but not in criminal cases from what I can find.

  481. “And LadySadie, my defense of Buster Johnson should in no way be taken to mean that I, or my “group” approves of an idea simply floated out into a conversation with a reporter several years ago.

    I hope everyone is at least clear on that.”

    In all fairness to Buster (who I don’t know) I have to say that his statement seemed more like a statement of frustration rather than one of actual desired policy. Granted, it wasn’t a wise comment for a politician (and LE kind of have to be politically savvy too) but I DON’T think it was intended to be taken as an actual battle plan.

  482. i just remember back to the oj case where court tv petitioned the court to televise the proceedings.

  483. nearthecreek,
    and it seems to me since LDS still have D&C 132 in thier BOM, it would be kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, even though LDS say they no longer practice Polygamy, so if they don’t why not remove the D&C 132 from their writings?

  484. so nearthecreek, where are the mormons going to get all these wives in heaven?

  485. Why don’t the protestants remove the verses that say an eye for an eye, etc from their Bibles.

  486. why proudtexan, don’t ya know all those extra wives in heaven are going to be folks like you and me that were just to damn dumb on earth and we are going to just jump at the opportunity to be some godly mans polygamous wife once we are dead. Isn’t your idea of heaven being some man’s sexual slave and be perpetually pregnant for all of eternity?

  487. Anon 4:50 pm :
    The Scripture does not say “an eye for an eye…”
    The Scripture says in Hebrew “the value of an eye for an eye…”
    There is a nuance which is lost in translation.

  488. Discretion of the judge in criminal cases and must be requested by motion from media outlets with the prosecution and defense allowed to submit filings on the issue.

    A little background on Texas and courtroom cameras:

    http://texaspress.com/index.php/publications/law-media/748-law-a-the-media-in-texas–fair-trial-court-photos-a-gags

  489. I’ve been wondering where the excess wives in heaven come from.

    Are they LDS women whose husbands do not have temple recommends?

    Or are they just plucked from the catalogs of the unwashed dead?

  490. Ron, is it legal for me to repetitively hand my newborn babies over to someone else [no adoption papers, no nothing], as long as I believe I’m getting heavenly brownie points for it? And, is it okay if I just let them fill in the birth certificate with those other people’s names, no harm no foul?

    Yes, it’s legal and it happens all the time (well except for the heavenly brownie points.) It obviously is not a ringing endorsement for the parent that does it.

    I’m always happy to answer questions Ron, even if I am just a “stupid redneck”.

    Now, Boots, I invite you to go back and see that I never called you a “stupid redneck.” Besides, as I will tell anyone that asks, I come from fine redneck stock. We try to have family reunions, but we always seem to have to postpone them until cousin Bubba gets out of jail. (For the record, I actually DO have a cousin Bubba who has spent considerable time in jail.)

  491. My understanding is this – the purpose of temple marriage to to seal a couple for time and eternity. If a couple is married in the temple and the man is widowed at some later point and then marries a different woman in the temple, he is then sealed to both women for time and eternity. In addition, should he divorce that wife, he is not required to be “unsealed” from that wife to become married and sealed to another woman. Therefore, technically he could enter heaven with two, three or more wives.

    Things are much different for divorced mormon women. Here’s an interesting excerpt from a writing called “Women and Mormonism” at http://www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm

    Because of the doctrine of celestial marriage, it is very difficult for Mormon women to obtain divorces in the church. Women are told that “divorce is usually the result of one or both not living the gospel”, and that a woman who wants a divorce is “untrue to the covenants she has made in the house of the Lord” (Laake 176). Legal divorces are no problem to obtain, but they create many problems in the religious life of a Mormon; a church divorce is almost impossible. After a civil divorce, a woman’s temple recommend is rescinded (Laake 193). In other words, she is considered unworthy to enter the temple, until she can prove to the heads of the church that the divorce was not caused by adultery. This is done by describing one’s sexual activities very exactly in a series of letters to the male church authorities (Laake 194). Believers must submit to this humiliating rule in order to avoid spending eternity with their ex- husbands, because they must be able to enter the temple to obtain a “cancellation of sealing” (Laake 210). This cancellation is required if a woman wishes to remarry in the temple, for women can be celestially married to only one man at a time. Men are not required to undergo any of this to get their temple recommends back, and they, of course, have no need to cancel the celestial marriage to one woman in order to marry a second (Laake 223).

  492. I dunno Twist, sounds pretty much the way islamic folks believe, they get 72 virgins. I kinda think thats MANS dream, even though not true. And Ive searched and searched and can’t find anywhere in the bible where it talks about having extra wives or virgins in any heaven

  493. Regarding cameras in the courtroom…

    It’s up to the judge. However, while it may help expose crimes committed around us, it also could be a point of appeal for a defendant. I have a hard time saying whether it’s a net positive or a net negative.

  494. LadieSadie,

    Just my luck that I’ll be posthumously married to someone like Big Willie.

    I don’t what would be worse.

    That or “getting close” to Rulon Jeffs in the ether.

    Eeeeeeeeewwwwwwww.

    Which raises another question…what happens to wives who rebel in the CK?

    Are they demoted to a lower floor as servants?

    Maybe it’s just me, but I would prefer cleaning their toilets over “getting close” to them.

    At any rate, maybe I’ll be buried with Playtex rubber gloves.

    Just in case.

    Either way.

  495. i guess i need to tell st pete not to put me in the catalog cuz i don’t want to be some plural wife in heaven.

    and ron, i too have a cousin bubba, but he puts people in jail instead of spending time there.

  496. very sad and ancient practice neathercreek, once again, a woman if ridiculed and made less than a human, because of a divorce.
    Im thinking there are going to be MANY females in heaven, cause God isn’t going to resend his recommend into heaven.

  497. i can see your funeral instructions now twist.

    “please place playtex rubber gloves on my hands before burial or i will haunt you from the grave forever”.

  498. Not on my hands, PT.

    In my purse.

    Along with the bra that always ends up there.

  499. hey twist, which would be worse, rulon or wee willie?

  500. nah, just go ahead and have them on your hands, then st pete will know where to assign you.

  501. HAHAHA twist,,,, seems our bra’s end up in the same place!

  502. So if I understand this correctly, nearthecreek, for an LDS man to acquire a quorum of three wives in eternity his best bet is to become a widower or divorce one or two wives along the way?

  503. Actually, cousin Bubba is not a bad guy. Like a lot of people he ends up afoul of the law more because of his addictions than anything else.

  504. a woman if ridiculed and made less than a human, because of a divorce

    Hmmm, I have a Baptist friend who said just about the same thing.

  505. Good point, PT. I need all the help I can get.

    I’d have to say Willie would be worse. At least with Rulon, my turn in the hot seat would come around less often.

    (No puns intended.)

    deputydog1,

    I buried my mother with her bra in her purse along with her lipstick.

    The woman could never find her car keys in her purse, but she could put her hands on the Coty in the blink of an eye.

  506. i know lots of divorced baptists. many are in my own family and i’ve never known the church to think any less of them or refuse to allow them to be married in the church for the 2nd or 5th or whatever number marriage it is.

  507. to me rulon would be better than wee willie, although willie might be kept busy telling st pete how to run his business.

  508. nearthecreek, I suppose since it was Joseph Smith who made up the religion , He could add or take away anything he wanted..typical Male!!

  509. i agree dd1. ole joe did lots of makin up in my book.

  510. Personally, I would rather be married to an animal than either rulon or willie!

  511. Ron,

    I have a cousin who is in prison for the same reason.

  512. i don’t think i have any at the present time, but that is always subject to change.

  513. Oh DD

    I’m calling you out on your misandry. I think you females get away with way too much of a double standard. If I’d said the same thing about a female I’d have been hit with the misogynist stick several times.

  514. Not sure what type Baptist your talkin about Ron, cause Ive never heard baptist condeming people to hell cause of divorce, male or female.. Now, it could be some fundie baptist type that broke off from mainstream baptist, kinda like FLDS broke off from LDS.

  515. ProudTexan

    The Baptist lady I refer to talks about the scorn and disapproval she felt as a divorced Baptist woman. Official “acceptance” is a far different thing than actual acceptance.

  516. Sorry, ron, not meant for you personally, but its a fact, MEN rule the world,, according to them

  517. texastwist said:

    So if I understand this correctly, nearthecreek, for an LDS man to acquire a quorum of three wives in eternity his best bet is to become a widower or divorce one or two wives along the way

    I’m not saying a man would divorce one wive to get another wive or anything like that – just that it COULD happen that way. I don’t know what is taught about how they can get multiple wives in heaven.

  518. DD

    Remember, I’m in the heart of Southern Baptist land. I still can’t buy wine before noon on Sunday. I mean, really, what’s up with that? I promise if you let me buy wine on Sunday that I won’t show up drunk in your church.

  519. I suspect I wouldn’t last long in the CK if by some fluke that was my initial assignment.

    I figure my spirit would rebel against the concept of plural marriage just as much there as it does here.

    My irreverence alone would get me kicked out on day one.

  520. DD

    If you can’t tell I tend to yank with folks a lot. I certainly didn’t take any offense.

  521. well as a baptist, i’ve never let marital status infringe on my thinking, but i’m sure there are some that do. i know our church gets lots of crap because we had a “dance” class that was held in the multipurpose building. it was part of the junior league manners class that parents can sign their 5th grade children up for.

  522. I don’t have a church Ron, and I don’t make the laws. But my suggestion would be to buy your wine the night before 🙂

  523. Thanks Anonymous in Florida for the info on the Orthodox Presb. Church. I found the history interesting.

  524. I know Ron, no offense taken!

  525. i’m sure i wouldn’t last long myself twist. i’d probably tell willie to stuff it and i’d be booted right down to scrubbing floors or something. good thing for me is that my heaven isn’t gonna have that stuff in it, so i’m good to go.

    ron – that goes back to the blue law days when they had lots of stuff covered up so you couldn’t buy it on sunday. you could only buy food and necessities i believe.

  526. Ron,
    You can buy wine in NY on Sunday – this is permitted because Orthodox Jewish people cannot shop on Friday evening or Saturday before sunset, and they require wine for the Sabbath meal.
    Consider relocating.

  527. I see what you’re saying, nearthecreek.

  528. i know our church gets lots of crap because we had a “dance” class that was held in the multipurpose building.

    OMG – shield the eyes of the children. There are buildings at Baylor University that actual revert to the donor’s heirs if a dance ever happens.

    I heard the Baptists have taken to boycotting the Flintstones since they don’t want to have a “gay old time.”

  529. There are some counties in Texas which are still totally “dry.”

    Not that long ago in New Mexico, you couldn’t go to a bar on election day before the polls closed.

  530. My favorite Baptist joke (and since we’re talking about the Presbyterians…)

    A woman called on the Baptist minister and asked him if he would preach a funeral for her dog who had just died.
    “I can’t do that, ma’am,” he said. “Why don’t you try the Presbyterian minister?”
    “All right,” she said, “but can you give me some advice. How much
    should I pay him – three hundred dollars or four hundred dollars?”
    “Hold on,” he said, “I didn’t know your dog was Baptist!”

  531. Two weeks ago at 8:00am, I ran to the convience store to get some milk , cause we were out.. There was a guy on his way to work, who bought 4 quarts of beer, and he already reaked of alcohol. He was a construction worker.
    The manager tried to talk him out of buying it, but the construction worker argued with him. So the manager sold it to him anyway.
    I remember thinking on the way home,,, what if that guy gets in a accident and kills someone cause he was to drunk to drive?
    I don’t drink, but don’t condemn those that do,, but if I ruled the world,, NO one could buy or consume liquor until at least 5:00 pm.

  532. Ron said:
    I have to wonder what in the hell the Mohave County Board of Supervisors thought would happen when they allowed Colorado City to incorporate in 1985.

    Ron, would the Board of Supervisors have any say in whether or not Colorado City could incorporate as a city?

    Isn’t a decision like that left up to the local citizens?

  533. NearTheCreek,
    You need to clarify one point about men marrying a second wife and being sealed in the temple.

    If the second wife is a widow and she and her new husband are sealed in the temple, it is for time only, as she is still sealed for eternity to her 1st husband who died.

  534. DD

    Not to play devils advocate, but I think there is a distinction between selling alcohol to someone who appears intoxicated and the random time when you buy it.

    The real drunks are as likely to kill someone after 5 as they are before 5.

    I suppose you have a point that folks that wake up drunk are probably serious alcoholics.

    My gripe is that I can buy alcohol any morning at 9:00 am sharp except Sunday.

  535. Well Sunday is a day of REST,, so use it for resting, not drinking, LOL

  536. In Utah, they say you cant buy wine at all on Sunday. The state liquor stores are closed. Along with every other holiday the state can imagine.

    You could settle for 3.0 beer I recon, nothing stronger.

  537. Stamp, I think Election Day is also one of those days the Utah State Liquor stores are closed.

    And you can’t order an alcoholic drink in a restaurant until you order a meal. You are not allowed to just sit in a restaurant and drink. If you want to do that, you have to go to a bar.

    And then there is the “Zion Curtain” which has to screen the “booze” area where openly displayed bottles of wine and booze and the mixing and pouring of such can’t be viewed by children in the restaurant.

    And you can’t have 2 glasses of wine or 2 bottles of beer in front of you at the same time. If you order a second round, the server must remove the 1st glass or bottle before they can give you the second one.

    Utah … a whole ‘nother country!

  538. In Indiana you also cannot buy beer on and the liquor stores are closed on election day. An LDS man cannot marry a woman in a Temple, divorce her, then marry another woman in the temple to be sealed to two wives. If he divorces the first wife, that divorce would negate the temple sealing to that woman.

  539. DD1 :
    Not everyone observes Sunday as a day of rest.
    The Sabbath actually begins on Friday night at sundown,
    and ends Saturday night upon the sighting of three stars.

  540. Susan, thats your belief not mine and your welcome to observe it that way 🙂

  541. I am an evangelical Christian – and I don’t observe either day as a day of rest, due to patient obligations. I can’t – if Jesus could heal on the Sabbath, so should I. The Sabbath day of rest is not Sunday, it is Saturday, Biblically speaking. There are some evangelical Christians who celebrate the Sabbath on Saturday, they are called Messianic believers. They perform certain traditional blessings with wine, called Kiddush, on Friday night and Saturday, and they need to shop for the wine on Sunday, hence the allowance for the purchase of alcohol on Sunday in some states.

  542. Well im a christian, not jewish, and to each his own I guess. Actually we should live like everyday is sabbath, not just one or two days a week.
    Unfortunately, most of us don’t.

  543. deputydog I disagree with your comment that people don’t care about others. I think people still care very much about one another. But I think much like myself they have become frustrated. Frustrated that the system seems to be enforced for some and not others.
    Yes, they are worried about paying their bills, having to work two jobs and keep things neat and square inside their own four walls.
    But for so long many things have been done behind closed doors. Closed doors leave room for speculation.

    Please don’t get me wrong I truly appreciate all the coverage that we’ve seen. But can you honestly say that you don’t have some questions? Am I the only one? And if so how is that possible?

    Texas from get go has said what they are going to do. They followed thru. But there are some links missing.
    Where is Raymond Jessop? Where is Allan Keate?

    If the Feds have been running the show they know that I am out here asking questions, I can’t be the only one. Why not say straight up what they are doing. or for that matter do it and get it done.

    I know Sheriff Doran and Deputy George wouldn’t lie.
    I know Gary Engles wouldn’t lie.
    I know Randy and Kathy Mankin don’t play games when reporting the news.
    I know that Brooke has been reporting on all this for years prior to any raid in Texas.
    I know that every town has a Randy Wilson.
    But there is something missing. Actually there are a lot of things missing. And if a nosey old lady like me knows it. You guys have to know it.
    So share. please. If you guys don’t share what is it that I can do to help?

  544. Ive never drank any kind of alcoholic beverage, and don’t think its necessary, grape juice is just as good.

  545. DD1 :
    I would agree with that. On all days we should remember and reverence God.

  546. In Oklahoma you can’t buy beer that is more than 3.2% except from a liquor store and they’re closed on Sundays.

    Beer that is more than 3.2% in Oklahoma has to be sold at room temperature.

    I was introduced to boilermakers in Oklahoma City.

  547. Walton, my statement earlier was about why more people in all states are more involved in what Flds are doing.
    I never said people didn’t care,, they just don’t care enough to get involved.. Im not talking about the ones who come here, Im talking about the population in general.

    Yes, I have many questions, but the only people who could answer my questions would be FLDS themselves, or LE from arizona or utah.

    For instance, why for so many years, have Utah and Arizona Judical system just given KNOWN abusers slaps on the wrist? Why have no women not been arrested when their names were on the witness list of known underage girls being married?
    Why has Mark Shurtleff down an about face with Flds, when he was the one who took it to court to take over UEP trust?
    Why is the ASST AG of Utah making all news statements about the happenings in Utah about the trust now?

    Why has Matt Smith been on the ball at protecing witnesses for the state?
    Who is paying who off?
    Yes, I have questions Walton, getting any of them answered has been a problem for YEARS!

  548. Secondly, It royally pisses me off that people assume, Texas doesnt prosecuted any kind of abuser of children but Flds.
    That simply isn’t true. Texas has prosecuted many males and females alike for doing just what Flds does in their little group cult.

  549. Walton, ever person is assumed innocent till proven guilty. Which means they are entitled to an attorney. Randy Wilson defends mostly criminals and charges an arm and a leg. Your right there are many attorneys just like him. Goldstein for one.
    So attorneys don’t have the balls to say NO to a client who is shaking lots of money in their face.

  550. So why not end this discussion by buying extra wine on monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday and friday?

  551. *some attorneys

  552. I know they have deputydog. And many other people know it. From what I can see the only ones complaining are those at the campsite of Wild Bill.

  553. Walton, amoung other things Medvecky is full of, Hot Air is another one! LOL

  554. Raymond Jessop is in the Tom Green County Jail.

    Jail ID 345493
    Confined 11/20/2009
    Released
    Defendant Jessop, Raymond Merril – 09/01/1971
    Charge SEXUAL ASSAULT CHILD
    Department Schleicher County SO

    http://justice.co.tom-green.tx.us/SherSearch/jailfrmd.htm

    “Released” does not mean he has been released. It means he has not and the field is empty.

    Allen Keate is not showing up on a search of the Tom Green County Jail, so I’m assuming that he is in the Schleicher County Jail. I don’t think they have an online search function.

    It will be some time before either of these two are physicaly transferred to a TDCJ facility. That is normal for TDCJ and when they are initially transferred it can be a few weeks before they show up in the TDCJ online search database.

    According to the Eldorado Success, Raymond Jessop’s attorney has filed a motion for a new trial and a hearing on the motion is scheduled for January 7 in Judge Walther’s courtroom in San Angelo.

  555. hmmmm,,, well I doubt that appeal will get very far

  556. I know a couple who were in a Presbyterian church. He cheated on her and got caught. He was told that he was no longer a member of the church. She was told that she could stay but only if she did NOT divorce him. Really, she was supposed to go home and submit and forgive. She changed churches. So I readily believe that the story on divorce can be different from one congregation to the next.

  557. Once Bitten,
    With regard to the wine issue and those who observe the Jewish Sabbath,(Friday night to Saturday sundown) most New Yorkers arrive home from work too late to shop for wine as wine is only sold in liquor stores in NY. Liquor stores close at about 6-7 pm which is about when the average New Yorker arrives home from work due to heavy traffic. Sabbath observers cannot shop until Saturday after sundown, by then liquor stores are closed. This led to the lifting of the “blue laws” restricting Sunday liquor sales in NY State, as Sabbath observant Jews and some Christians could not obtain wine for sacramental purposes due to restrictions in shopping hours.

  558. We used to have blue laws here in Virginia when I was young, and I think they still have them in parts of North and South Carolina. It always seemed to me that the law was not against drunks, it was against drunks who couldn’t plan one day in advance.

  559. Susan, that makes no sense whatsoever. Wine does not go bad in two days. What’s wrong with buying it on Wednesday and leave it in the cupboard until Sabbath? They can keep their culture intact through millennia of persecution but they can’t buy wine two days in advance?

  560. what i heard from someone in the sheriff’s office was that until all of ray’s appeals in the local court system were finished (like the new trial), he’d stay in san angelo so they didn’t have to cart him to and fro since he has the right to be present at any hearing in his case. i’m not a lawyer, so i’m not sure if the motion for new trial is the last step here or not. ron do you know?

  561. well in Texas the town I live in, you can buy liquor at liquor till 12:00 saturday night. Even though you can’t buy it on Sunday till after lunch.

  562. the liquor till 12:00 at night. I don’t understand that one either Betty.

  563. i might have to take jan 7 off from work. i’d love to hear the attorney’s arguments for a new trial.

  564. in most bars you can drink til 1 on Saturday night, its 12 on other nights. must give you an extra hour on Saturday since you have to wait until noon on Sunday.

  565. Susan M.D. — didn’t know that. In Utah the liquor store I frequent is open till 10 pm. Every kind of alcohol except 3.2% beer is sold there exclusively.
    By the way, my previous comment was made tounge in cheek 🙂

  566. I know lots of people that make their own beer and wine, lol

  567. what exactly is 3.2% beer?

  568. I dunno Proud Texan, since I don’t drink, but Ive smelled beer and it smells like horse pee to me.

  569. 3.2% beer that contains 3.2% alcohol. Arizona beer is twice as strong. I think it is 6.5%.

  570. Does it smell less like horse pee at 3.2%? what percent is coors or bud or miller draft? those are beers i’ve heard of.

  571. 3.2 beer is lower in alcohol content than regular beer. 3.2% alcohol by weight.

    “Normal” beer is usually between 4-6 percent.

    The theory is that consumers will become less intoxicated even if they consume more due to having to relieve themselves more often.

    As out-of-staters, we compensated by dropping a shot of whiskey into the Oklahoma beer back in my much younger days.

    One of the other results is increased beer sales in neighboring states near the state lines.

    Speaking of horse piss…

    Colorado also has some 3.2 laws and I think that you could only get Coors as 3.2 when it first started gaining popularity in Texas (late 60s and early 70s).

  572. Budweiser has a high alcohol content and I don’t know about Miller Lite. I think that Coors now sold in Texas is “normal”, but tends to the lower end.

    I don’t drink alcohol anymore, but when I did I preferred dark beers with some substance to them like Shiner. That has less to do with the alcohol content and more to do with the brewing ingredients and process.

  573. so if normal beer is between 4 – 6 %, why are we talking about 3.2? Where would you buy it?

  574. ProudTexan, Jan. 7 is a double header. Raymond Jessop motion for a new trial and pretrial hearing for Emack. Judge Walther hearing both.

  575. Bud and Coors — 5.0 alcohol by volume
    Miller Lite — 4.2
    Shiner Bock – 4.4

    http://www.realbeer.com/edu/health/calories.php

  576. PT,

    Some states (such as Oklahoma, Colorado and Utah) have restrictions that either prohibit the sale of “real” beer or make it difficult enough that retailers primarily carry 3.2%.

    There was a time prior to the raising of the drinking age nationwide to 21 when in some states (such as Ohio) 18-20 year-olds could buy 3.2 beer but had to wait until 21 to purchase anything with a higher abv, including wines and distilled liquor.

  577. And it’s Ron’s fault.

    He got us started down this bunny trail of alcohol restrictions in the states.

  578. Betty,
    They don’t arrive home in time to make it to the liquor store M-F.
    They work till 5 pm, commute for 2+ hrs. and arrive home at 7 pm. or so. The liquor stores in NY close early between 5 – 7 pm. So they do their shopping on Sunday for both liquor and groceries.
    That is why the Blue Laws were appealed in NYS, to accommodate Sabbath observers.

  579. Dang you people are making me want to go out and buy a six-pack now, LOL. In Florida (or at least the part where I live) you can buy alcohol 7 days a week from 6 am to 2 am. You get 4 hours to “sober” up before you can buy more, LOL.

  580. ok ron, so move quickly to florida and you can buy any alcohol your heart desires 20 of the 24 hours in a day.

    yeah texasconnie, i think i’m feeling an illness coming on that will hit full strength on jan 7 @ 6:30 am.

  581. ooooooooooooooooooooo Proud Texan,, Im telling,, 🙂 lol

  582. Dr. Susan,, don’t people get lunch hours in New York? Seems they could buy wine on thier lunch hour if its that important.. Ladysadie after all this converstaion, it might make decide to learn to drink!!!! LOL

  583. i’m thinking of taking up drinking as a hobby. maybe becoming a beer taster, although since i agree with the horse pee analogy, maybe i’d be better suited for another alcoholic beverage.

    go on and tell dd1. as long as i have the days, they aren’t too worried about it.

  584. If you work in NYC, there are very few liquor stores, and these NYC liquor stores are not Kosher Liquor Stores. Kosher liquor stores are located in the suburbs primarily, where the Jewish communities are.

    I graduated Yeshiva University Medical School, which was 80% Jewish, and most were Orthodox Jews, so I ended up on call on Friday night and Saturday till sundown. To observe the Sabbath (called Shabbat), observant Jews do not work, nor can they purchase anything, nor may they turn on electrical lights, watch TV, listen to radio, rip toilet paper, or squeeze a toothpaste tube. As a gentile, I was often called to perform certain functions for observant Jews, such as turning on lights, turning up the heat in someone’s apartment, etc.

  585. I can’t get through all this reading, too late, too much giggling. To DD: the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.
    I moved from a dry town that’s not a town at all, to one with a 33 mph speed limit sign.

    To Twist, you are SO dang funny.

    To anyone who cares to join me, let’s go tinkle in duane’s cocoa puffs.

  586. ok can i just say “yuck” susan. that’s a little out there for me.

  587. I just do not like beer. Beer is for people who like to pee. Beer takes up too much room.

  588. I respect everyone’s beliefs, and was happy to help others observe their religion in any way. I did receive an excellent education there.

  589. Sorry Susan,, regardless what anyone believes Im not ripping toliet paper for someone who thinks its not kosher. And what’s the difference between kosher and non kosher liquor?

  590. i guess the jews i know aren’t orthodox cuz they use cell phones 24/7.

  591. Nor do I wipe anyone’s else’s butt, on any day of the week.

  592. i agree dd1. they can rip their own toilet paper!!!

  593. I respect your beliefs for you. I hope you will respect everyone else’s beliefs..

  594. i will too dd as long as they don’t force their beliefs on me.

  595. I did not rip toilet paper for anyone. That is done prior to the Sabbath by the Sabbath observer themselves, or alternatively Kleenex is used. This is apparently done to avoid creating or destroying anything on the Sabbath.
    I did take call, turn on lights, and adjust room temperatures to assist others in the observance of the Sabbath. These people were my friends and colleagues, all excellent physicians and colleagues.
    There is a difference between Kosher and non Kosher liquor, but it escapes me at the moment. I would have to get back to you about that.

  596. Well, I’m prepared in case the CK turns out to be kosher.

    😀

  597. what praytell is CK?

  598. Celestial Kingdom

  599. if the CK requires me being married to one of the FLDS men then i’ll shoot for one of the other kingdoms. what are my choices?

  600. Wasn’t the terrestrial kingdom also an option ?

  601. i think there were 2 other options, both starting with t, but i wasn’t sure what happened in each. i want the one where i don’t have to be married.

  602. Maybe you should ask Honey Dawn about it…

  603. done, its in moderation.

  604. Honey Dawn has a vast fund of knowledge she can share with you on the topic, I am sure.

  605. i’m wondering what emack’s bad acts is going to say. any guesses?

  606. Personally I opt for hell rather than any of the flds “kingdoms”. So Saint Peter if you are reading, if those are my only choices – reject me when I get to the Pearly Gates – Thanks in advance!

  607. That doesn’t make sense.

    Wouldn’t the IP go to Blogger.com?

    Whoever it is, it is funny as heck.

  608. It is my fault. I started the whole alcohol convo when I was complaining about the no beer or wine before noon on Sunday restriction in Texas.

  609. Actually, the biggest source of this gripe is that noon on Sunday also is usually when the football games start. So, if I’m out of wine and want some wine when I watch football, well you guys get the drift.

    OK – I’ll stop being a whiny baby now.

  610. ProudTexan

    Here’s how a criminal appeal works – the last motion in the trial court is a motion for new trial which the Defendant has a right to attend.

    So, it makes sense that the Sheriff would keep the defendant until after the hearing on the motion for new trial and then transfer them.

    If the Court of Appeals calls for oral arguments then the Defendant again would have the right to attend. However, that’s far down the road and it’s certainly not a given that the court of appeals will even have oral arguments.

    So, my guess is after the motion for new trial they’ll transfer Jessop to the TDC system.

  611. I looked up news reports on the repeal of blue laws in New York state. They said that the laws were antiquated and had little public support and sited the biggest motivator as being lost revenue for the state. It said that people were crossing borders to buy alcohol, and it was a big inconvenience for those who were traveling through the state, families on outings, those attending sports events, etc. Not one mention in over five articles about Orthodox Jews and the Sabbath. It’s a big state with a diverse population and legislature probably has to appeal to many groups to pass.

  612. Ron are you saying that every prisoner that asks for a new trial is given that option?

    Didn’t Mark G. ask for a new trial for Scott Peterson? And wasn’t he hauled off to prison right away?

  613. it’s cool ron. it led to quite a discussion and in the end, we decided you needed to move to florida because you can buy any alcohol you want 20 of 24 hours in the day. the missing hours are apparently from 2 am to 6 am, so it gives you a small window for sleep.

  614. Walton

    Almost every convicted defendant files a motion for new trial as part of the appeal process. Naturally, most motions for new trial are denied.

    The motion for new trial gives you one last opportunity to put anything on the record prior to an appeal.

  615. so ray’s motion for new trial should be a window into what he thinks his grounds for appeal will be.

    you know, as soon as he gets in the texas prision system, he can get rid of those pricey lawyers on the outside and have one of the convicts do his legal work for him for a lot less.

  616. ProudTexan

    Not to mention that the Orthodox Jewish toilet paper conversation was interesting, educational and pretty damn funny.

  617. ProudTexan

    Yes, most (but not necessarily all) points of appeal will be in the motion for new trial. So, when it gets filed a copy will give us a pretty good road map for what will happen in the FLDS appeal process.

  618. When you go to any website if you take time to notice at the bottom of your screen it shows what IP you are connecting to. I just went to HoneyDawn’s site and it showed that the IP I was connecting to is: 166.70.44.68. So I then went to an IP Tracing site and entered that IP, the IP is owned by the Salt Lake Tribune, it is also the same IP for Brooke’s blog. So whoever is running HoneyDawn’s site is doing so from the same IP that is running Brooke’s blog.

  619. chemist,
    Does a man seeking a divorce have to “enter the temple to obtain a “cancellation of sealing””

    Does he lose his temple recommend if he divorces?

  620. A blogspot blog (like Almost Heaven) is hosted on blogger/google servers, NOT on a private, self-hosted server attached to a domain name like the SLT. Same thing for this blog, which is hosted on wordpress servers and not a private server.

  621. What does 3.2 Beer, toilet paper, HoneyDawn and Buster have in Common?

    Discussion #20

    Please continue on #21

    THANKS – ADMIN

  622. Ron, that is the google IP for blogspot, google owns blogspot. All traces of any blogspot blog eventually trace back to google.

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