Open Discussion #19

Continued from Open Discussion #18

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on December 11, 2009.

661 Responses to “Open Discussion #19”

  1. Well if anyone from the jury said anything they didn’t say it here.

    Blog owner sorry about that last post. I must have been posting while you were setting it up.

  2. Walton,

    Raymond Jessop was a party to the proceedings on Monday so that wasn’t unusual.

    It also isn’t too unusual for convicts in Texas to be allowed to attend funeral services for family members.

    Some do and some don’t so if Raymond is/was allowed to attend a service for Barbara, it wouldn’t be anything that hasn’t been allowed for others.

    Sometimes the logistics are the deciding factor and since Raymond is still “local”, the less work required to coordinate his attendance and return.

  3. Regarding Raymond being let out of prison for Barbara’s funeral, I would like to point out that since Merril did not legally marry Barbara (to my knowledge), she is not Raymond’s step-mother. Therefore, he has not right to go to the funeral. People aren’t allowed out of prison to go to friend’s funerals…this isn’t college!! BTW, since Raymond is a convicted sex-offender, would he even be allowed to be in such close proximity to children?

  4. Raymond was a party to Mondays procedure? What part did he have in Mondays circus?

    As Walther was walking to her chambers his attorney asked that Raymond Jessop could attend. Nicolas made the comment ” Give me a break.”

    I thought that was the end of it until that little gut feeling made me go out and search the next day. That is when I found the site I just provided a link for. Well what do you know. Raymond was there.

    What was he needed in that courtroom for?

  5. highlands56,

    I don’t personally know of any prisoners being able to attend a non-family members funeral, but as to him being a convicted sex offender, I do know of a sex-offender who was permitted to attend his grandmother’s service while incarcerated.

    He was under guard and shackled the entire time so any proximity to children wasn’t an issue and he was not permitted to linger and chat before or after the service.

    If I’m not mistaken, the cost involved is borne by the prisoner and/or his family.

  6. I am not so cold that I don’t understand Raymond wanting to attend or to the fact that it is different with each person but I would love to have read somewhere anywhere that it was Raymond Jessop or Barbara Jessop that stood out in the crowd and voiced their opinion saying that they think the family of the little boy that died should be allowed to bury their child. I didn’t see it and I didn’t hear it.

    I also didn’t see or hear them stand up and say that the family of Noreen Jeffs could be allowed to attend her funeral. Nope. It was Bruce Wisan that said they could visit her grave.

  7. The Eldorado Success trial update notice says court was recessed until Monday on Thursday after Becky Musser’s testimony.

    Do they really mean Friday (today) or was this after court Thursday (yesterday)?

    I am confused about this. Was court in session today?

  8. By being a party, Walton, I am referring to a fact that Raymond Jessop was one of the persons on whose behalf the motion being heard was filed.

    In the unlikely event that Walther had granted the motion to quash the indictments, Raymond Jessop’s conviction would have automatically been overturned and he would have been a free man and had the right to attend.

    As reported in Thursday’s Eldorado Success:

    “…as requested by defense attorney Mark Stephens, Raymond Merril Jessop was in attendance, albeit in handcuffs, leg irons, and an orange jumpsuit provided by the Tom Green County jail.”

    Not exactly a leisurely outing for lunch.

  9. Highland is right. A sex offender or moving anyone from anywhere should be documented and closely monitered. Who do you suppose he would see at the funeral?

    The victim. One look, one glare, one nod is all it takes to upset that apple cart. The guy belongs in prison. Anything that they need out of him his lawyer can bring it to the courtroom. That is what his lawyer is for. imo

  10. Anon 3:33,

    Court was in session earlier today and Rebecca Musser’s testimony was today.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/11/former-flds-member-describes-life-in-sect/

  11. texastwist and Betty, Thank you.

  12. By that logic, Walton, would you permit a defendant in a sexual offense case to attend their own trial or be in the courtroom while a victim was testifying?

  13. texastwist please be careful what you bring from the Success. We can’t share or redistribute. Copyright rules/laws etc. I understand the whole purpose behind all that stuff but it sure makes it hard some days.

    Court didn’t start until after 2 that day. Because the lawyer called off the witnesses. The whole thing was suppose to be about Walther would quash the indictments. They didn’t need him for that. In fact they didn’t need any of them for anything as far as I could tell.

  14. I’m well aware of the copyright statutes, Walton, and am very much in favor of compliance with them.

    There is a thing called the Fair Use Doctrine wherein small extractions fall within what is considered to be permissible as long as attribution is provided.

    The portion of the Success article that I quoted is a small portion of the article from which it was extracted.

  15. I’ve seen that having the offender seated opposite the victim is very hard on some victims. But it is done and it is done daily.

    When Elisa Wahl testified she sat up there and glanced out into a crowd that she knew disliked her. She met the glares and faced the looks with her testimony. But it truly couldn’t have been easy looking out there. When she spoke of how she asked for help and she saw the many people that told her to “deal with it” including her own mother. 😦

    It is a very difficult process to bring themselves to the point of facing the accused in the courtroom much less out and about. In shackles or otherwise. Stirs up an awful lot of emotions for the victim and or their children.

  16. Thanks texastwist. I didn’t mean to sound bossy but I hate to lose a good thing. I have a lot of respect for those that are in the field. One time I thought I’d like to write but that passed over real fast. I love to read and ask questions.

  17. Sounds to me like there is a breach in the jury.

  18. Ron or Blues, either one of you have a clue why a judge would do this?

  19. Not a problem, Walton, and I understand not wanting to lose a good thing. I could have just reiterated the facts of Raymond’s attire as reported by the Success, but I loved the way they put it.

    It’s an interesting question about trying to balance the rights of a defendants to confront their accusers while protecting the rights of the victims.

    Many states (and I think Texas is one) do allow for very young victims to give their testimony via closed circuit.

  20. Are prisoners allowed to go to the funerals of extended family members? Remember, Raymond is Barbara’s nephew; his mother, Ruth and Barbara are sisters. I know most of you know this, but a few may not.

  21. I think Ruth and Barbara are 1/2 sisters, not full sisters. Wonder if Ruth was let out of the looney bin in Nevada to attend?

  22. Maybe barbara jessops funeral was this afternoon , and one reason the judge dismissed trial early?

  23. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/publications/executive/gen_info_guide_families_offenders_2008.pdf

    An aunt would not appear to be “immediate family” in the guidelines for non-emergency leave, but a surrogate parent would be if documented prior in TDCJ files.

    The TDCJ policies for that type of leave are entirely discretionary and the guidelines exclude a person convicted of sexual assault, but as I stated earlier I personally know of one person convicted of said offense who was granted leave to attend a funeral.

    Since Raymond is not physically in TDCJ custody at the present time, the discretion to allow him to attend any service for Barbara may belong to the Tom Green County jail.

    If he even asks to.

  24. Anon 4:56,

    Yes, Ruth and Barbara are half-sisters.

    Ruth’s mother was Eliza Aseneth Pugh and Barbara’s was Olive Young.

    I’m doubting that Ruth would be attending any service.

  25. That is my guess deputydog/

    I did find this: http://www.justice.gov/marshals/district/tx-w/prisoners/funeral.htm

    U. S. Marshals will not allow the attendance of a federal prisoner in USMS custody, or support the production of prisoners in other agencies’ custody, at funeral observances (religious or civil) for a deceased member of the prisoner’s immediate family. The behavior of the prisoner, his or her family, and friends are likely to be governed by the emotional impact of such observances and the risk of escape or assaultive behavior is increased. The burden on districts to properly secure such an environment is beyond the capability of most districts and the costs to the prisoner would be prohibitive.

  26. texastwist are you in my head? lol

  27. It sure would be nice to have an Internet feed during the trial. Maybe some news source will get to look in on the trial…and share…I hope!

  28. LOL, Walton.

    I’ve wondered if Barbara will be buried at YFZ or in the Short Creek cemetery with her parents. Newel Steed’s family gives every impression of being a very tight one.

    And I think one of her beloved sister wives, Foneta Marie Cook Jessop, is buried at Short Creek.

    Presumably, though, all of Barbara’s daughters are living at YFZ with the exception of Merrianne and they might prefer to have their mother’s gravesite closer to them.

  29. Speculating, exploring What Ifs. What if Rebecca Musser recognized someone on the jury during her testimony in court. Just sayin.

  30. Dougherty followed the money trail and exposed FLDS fraud, like using school funds to buy an airplane, et cetera.

    Yep, and nothing has happen.

  31. foneta beloved – i thought barbara was as mean to her as she was to anyone. as for merrianne, i think she and her guardian are both living at the ranch.

  32. I’m also wondering what happens when a wife dies before her husband and priesthood head.

    Is there something like a Green Room where they wait for their husbands to arrive before proceeding to the celestial heaven?

    Or do they get to go on ahead?

    What happens if he loses his priesthood in the meantime? Does God serve his deceased wives with eviction notices to vacate the premises of the celestial heaven?

    One FLDS man was excommunicated posthumously, but I don’t know if any of his wives preceded him in death. I assume that God personally kicked him out of the celestial kingdom.

  33. There are any number of reasons that the judge would question the jurors – none of which are good.

    At best, there is nothing to it, a rumor that can be straightened out or a harmless error. At worse, it would result in a mistrial. It might result in a juror being replaced by an alternate.

    Until there is further information, there is just no way of knowing.

  34. #

    San Angelo doesn’t have an organized LDS church to the best of my knowledge. If we do, its kept very quiet.

    Anonymous said this on December 9, 2009 at 4:33 PM

    Better look again, San Angelo has two LDS churches or stakes whatever they are called. One south of the mall and the other by Goodfellow AFB.

  35. Anon 5:20,

    My tongue was planted pretty firm against my cheek when I mentioned her beloved Foneta.

    Wasn’t sure where Merrianne and guardian were living.

    As far as Barbara’s sons go, my guess is that they’re domiciled at the ranch except for Leroy, Truman and maybe Tommy.

  36. could be uncle thread.

  37. I could have just reiterated the facts of Raymond’s attire as reported by the Success, but I loved the way they put it.

    texastwist said this on December 11, 2009 at 4:25 PM

    Yes, the Mankins do have a way with words. I love how they phrase things.

  38. Thanks Blues, for the info 🙂

  39. I think LeRoy’s at the ranch waiting for his turn at trial.

  40. texastwist,
    I loved your comments about the Celestial Kingdom!!!!

    It is my understanding that the husband is supposed to call the wife by her special name “through the veil” permitting her to enter heaven.

    I understand that the LDS and FLDS believe in this procedure.

    What a dilemma this may present for Barbara. She could sit for a while in the “holding area”.

  41. PT,

    I take it that Leroy’s teen bride is still living off the premises with her mother and siblings?

    Tommy may technically live at the ranch, but being 20 he’s probably out there working somewhere. Sampson is 18 so he may be elsewhere most of the time, too.

    For that matter, her youngest son is 12 so he, too, is probably out there working.

  42. Anon 5:47,

    Well, at least she’ll have her beloved Foneta to keep her company while they wait for the call through the veil.

  43. I swear it is like reading reallyreally bad juvenile fantasy scifi

  44. The truth is sometimes like scifi

  45. I have a question about LDS.

    Where do they get the women who are their celestial plural wives?

    Are they LDS women with “bad” husbands, single LDS women or just plucked from the massive LDS database?

  46. #

    Anon 5:47,

    Well, at least she’ll have her beloved Foneta to keep her company while they wait for the call through the veil.

    texastwist said this on December 11, 2009 at 5:54 PM

    HA HA HA.

    I wonder if they allow cat fights in the heaven holding area.

  47. Something interesting in the last update from the Success…

    Rebecca Musser testified about a letter written to her by the alleged victim in Keate’s case.

    Wonder what that was about and what the time frame and was?

    She also identified a photograph of herself and the alleged victim together.

  48. 44 Short.

    LOL

    Someone earlier mentioned that they enjoy how Kathy and Randy word things. Me too. This next part is off topic but I think it was a year or two ago Randy wrote about taking a family trip in the car. He might have been the one in the car and writing the story but the story took me right down memory lane. I always look first thing for one of his stories.

    Good people.

  49. TBM –
    Thanks for the info, done!

  50. Why is it that child internet porn charges are pursued in utah when all you have to do is to “spiritually marry” an underage girl to get away with it (ie as the FLDS does?) http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705350934/2-men-face-child-porn-charges.html

  51. Doncha know 15-year-old girls dream of a 53-year-old 44 Short as their Dream Date?

  52. There is no poll about that on San Angelo news blues

  53. You know I think I remember something in Carolyns book about how they use to sneak out and meet the boys. They had dreams. Can you imagine how badly controlled they must be when even Warren looks good to a 14 or 15 year old?

    How incredibly sad.

    They keep pushing the after life so much that they forget to live in this lifetime. jmo

    Blues I voted.

  54. deputydog it is closer to the bottom of the page.

  55. Right Walton, thanks, its on the FRONT page… I was looking on the stories…. thanks

  56. Yup, I voted to

  57. There’s also another poll on Raymond’s sentencing a little farther down the page from the fair trial poll. And yes, I voted on both.

  58. i voted

  59. the girls at my school’s response to the 57 year old 44 short was ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww yuck!!!

  60. OK, the found a white tuxedo outfit with Keate’s name on it, 44 short. Several questions/observations here, first what is the tuxedo for, any meaning for the FLDS (maybe cement or another ex or current member can answer that). Next is the 44 the waist size, again to parrot the school girls – ewwwwwwwww yuck!

  61. My understanding is the men dress in white just like the girls or women do when they marry for the first time.. I guess if they get reassigned, they just dress in whatever.

  62. Musser also identified a “Book of Remembrance” containing family records. She also identified a photo of herself with the alleged victim in the Keate case, as well as a letter the alleged victim wrote to Musser.

  63. i don’t know of a family connection between musser and the victim, so wonder what the connection is.

  64. Sorry proud texan I can’t remember the girls name?

  65. PT,

    No family connection that I know of, either.

    Perhaps she had been a member of the dancing troupe that Rebecca organized for Pioneer Day parades back when that was allowed?

    dd1,

    The girl is a Barlow, daughter of “Bob” Barlow and Nancy Johnson.

  66. that would make as much sense as anything.

    wonder if rebecca was invited to the funeral since babs was her 1/2 aunt. i also wonder what ever happened to the younger sisters of elissa and rebecca. sherrie and ally.

  67. hey twist, bob barlow’s now bob allred.

  68. 100 year old child sex abuser released from prison, Buffalo NY. Read the article there’s one older offender, 103, in Utah. http://www.wboc.com/global/story.asp?s=11661734

  69. Yeah, “Bob” is one of the Barlow aka Allreds.

    I’m doubting that Rebecca was invited to Barbara’s funeral — aunt or not. They had enough difficulty attending Uncle Fred’s service.

    Sharon Steed Wall Jessop Timpson aka Jessop is married to William Edson Timpson aka Jessop and they married in Colorado, so my guess is that Sharon and the girls are somewhere in Colorado or possibly at Pringle or possibly in one of the other houses of hiding in the Mountain States — wherever Timpson has some of his wives stashed outside of the Crick.

    No idea if either of the girls is married.

    No indictation from any documents released out of YFZ that they were ever at the raunch.

  70. Sherrie is 17 and Ally 15, so they are old by FLDS marrying standards.

  71. LOL, PT.

    They could possibly be in Canada as another one of Sharon’s older daughters is married to Winston Blackmore’s brother and is still FLDS unless they have lined up with Winston.

  72. At or just younger than Sherrie’s age, Terresa Wall was sent to “reform” in Canada for not turning herself in to be married and for having a will of her own.

  73. My coworkers and I use to talk about how nice it would be if we could ‘chip’ [ie Lojack] little kids…then, if they ever went missing, they could be tracked…yep, just like a stolen car. Now I’m thinking it woulda come in real handy, in these cases, to find ‘missing’ girls, sent off to ‘reform’ and not seen again.

  74. any updates regarding the discussion Judge Walther had with the jurors yesterday?

  75. Why is it that child internet porn charges are pursued in utah when all you have to do is to “spiritually marry” an underage girl to get away with it (ie as the FLDS does?) http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705350934/2-men-face-child-porn-charges.html

    highlands56 said this on December 11, 2009 at 6:43 PM

    The Mormons are VERY against pornography. They emphasize the “evilness” of it to their LDS members.

    Seems they are OK with polygamy because it is their heritage and still part of their scripture to practice it in the Celestial Kingdom.

    And having the Mormon US Senator from Utah, Orrin Hatch, stand up in public and say he knows “some very fine polygamists in Hildale” speaks volumes to me.

  76. “And having the Mormon US Senator from Utah, Orrin Hatch, stand up in public and say he knows “some very fine polygamists in Hildale” speaks volumes to me.”

    Yeah, and what he means to say is that they are donating a great deal of money to his campaign coffers.

  77. Yeah, and what he means to say is that they are donating a great deal of money to his campaign coffers.

    The rest they give to Zion and they themselves live in poverty.

  78. This is interesting.

    The Mormons are going to do more to “reach out and help with those who are suffering.”

    An article in today’s Deseret News says:

    Media reports and blog posts earlier this week suggested that “to care for the poor and the needy” would receive elevated emphasis in the next edition of the Church Handbook of Instructions, to be released in 2010. The manual contains directives, responsibilities and information for local and general LDS Church leaders worldwide.

    In the upcoming handbook, caring for the poor and the needy will be listed as one of the purposes of the church, along with tenets from its well-recognized three-fold mission — to proclaim Christ’s gospel worldwide, to perfect the Saints through their receiving ordinances and instruction en route to gaining exaltation, and to redeem the dead by performing vicarious ordinances for them.

    I wonder if they will do anything to help their local neighbors who are suffering in polygamy?

    Read the article here:
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705351000/Caring-for-needy-has-been-longtime-emphasis-for-Mormons.html

    And that emphasis on “performing vicarious ordinances for” the dead just really gets to me.

    They baptize dead people into the LDS church. How obnoxious.

  79. You just can’t make this stuff up!

    2 weeks of competency hearings just finished yesterday in Salt Lake City, Utah for self-proclaimed polygamous prophet Brian Mitchell who is accused of kidnapping and raping Elizabeth Smart after he made the 14-year-old girl his “plural wife”.

    Now, Ron Lafferty of “Under the Banner of Heaven” fame wants his turn at a competency hearing in Utah.

    Ron Lafferty is another Utah self-proclaimed polygamous prophet. He murdered his sister-in-law and his 15-month-old niece because she refused to let her husband, Dan, practice polygamy. Dan participated in the murders.

    From an article in today’s Salt Lake Tribune:

    Brenda Lafferty — the wife of Ron’s and Dan’s brother Allen — was beaten and strangled with a vacuum cleaner cord before her throat was slashed and Erica died in her crib after her throat was slashed. According to 1996 trial testimony, Dan admitted to slashing the victims’ throats, but said Ron had received a revelation from God ordering their removal.

    Read the article here:
    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13979951

    Religion in Utah is a scary thing!

  80. Enter Ron Lafferty back into the fray.

    Score one for the polygamy advocates.

    Not.

  81. Anyone think there’s a problem with encouraging that “I have a revelation from God” idea?

  82. Actually insanity, not religion, anywhere is a scary thing.

  83. I goofed in my post above.

    Ron and Dan Lafferty murdered their sister-in-law and 15-month-old niece.

    She was the wife of their brother, Allen, NOT Dan’s wife and baby daughter.

    I Need to go get another cup of coffee.

  84. Insanity in the guise of religion is a particularly scary thing.

  85. They baptize dead people into the LDS church. How obnoxious.

    ………………..

    I read an article about a woman who publicly and vehemently opposes it. Sorry I can’t remember her name. It is a very disrespectful thing for the LDS to do.
    I am a born again Christian and I don’t consider LDS or FLDS to be Christian religions, despite the way they throw the name of Jesus around.

  86. Mormons brought genetic clinical insanity to Utah with them as pioneers.

    FLDS may have been defiantly slow to catch on to their next genetic problem.

    Wreaths in the family tree is not a good thing. When inbreeding livestock you can eat your mistakes.

  87. I dunno Texastwist. I’m neither particularly more or less frightened by insanity whatever guise it comes under.

  88. Ron and Dan Lafferty murdered their sister-in-law and 15-month-old niece.
    ……………………

    The Lafferty’s are evil incarnate.

  89. Anon E Mouse,
    A few years ago the Mormons were actively baptizing Jewish victims of the holocaust into the LDS church.

    The Jews asked them to stop it and the Mormons promised they would.

    But NOOOOOOO they didn’t stop.

    They secretly continued to baptize dead Jews into the LDS church.

    That was recently discovered.

    The Mormons have absolutely NO respect for other faiths.

  90. Have you heard the story of John Singer and Adam Swapp?

    Here is a little: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4X0UFUfeyI

    “Blood Feud”–John Singer vs. The State of Utah reported by Mike Watkiss

  91. Utah Governor Herbert is trying to establish the state’s annual budget.

    There are many more public programs than there is funding – a sad reality across the nation.

    From an article in today’s Spectrum newspaper it says:

    House Speaker Dave Clark, R-Santa Clara, said the governor’s proposal “has more in common with what legislative objectives are than any other I’ve seen,” saying he could see only some technical items that would need to be addressed.

    As legislators meet in January to work out the actual budget, the biggest concern will be planning for the future, making sure that the state doesn’t get caught committed to programs that don’t have reliable funding down the road, Clark said, pointing to nearly $500 million in one-time funds going to fund ongoing programs.

    Hmmmm. I wonder what this means for the Safety Net Committee?

    According to a Tweet on Brooke Adams’ webblog:

    “Pat Merkley of Utah Safety Net says she hopes to give more presentations to social workers and law enforcement outside Utah in 2010.

    9:02 AM Dec 3rd from Twitterrific”

    It gets expensive traveling out of state to educate people on how to be sensitive while working with polygamists.

    Read The Spectrum article here:
    http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20091212/NEWS01/912120337/Herbert-offers-budget-options-proposes-variety-of-tools-for-budget-fix

  92. Walton,
    There is a great book about John Singer published in 1983 called “Death of an American: The Killing of John Singer” written by David Fleisher and David M. Freedman.

    An interesting thing about the John Singer situation.

    According to a county school superintendent, the reason Utah refrains from enforcing the home schooling laws is because of the John Singer tragedy.

    He said that the State of Utah told them to not get involved after the Singer situation.

  93. Sensitive my ass!!! What polygamists are doing is breaking the laws in every state!!

  94. #

    Sensitive my ass!!! What polygamists are doing is breaking the laws in every state!!

    deputydog1 said this on December 12, 2009 at 10:40 AM

    Maybe so DD, but Pat Merkely is going to see to it that social workers and law enforcement in those states treat the polygamists with respect.

  95. Thanks Anon. I wrote down the title and will have to look into it. Did you know Mary Batchelors husband was part of the negotiation team with either John Singer or Adam Swapp if not both?

    It doesn’t surprise me that Utah backed off from getting involved. If Utah is looking to save some money they should start at the top. jmo

  96. Maybe Pat Merkley should make sure that those in the Welfare department are doing their job.

    Funny Shurtleff kept saying there isn’t enough money to go after those that break the law concerning Polygamy and yet he comes up with these horsebrain ideas and tags the project with the word Committee. All kinds of monies.

    Heck even SuperDell would be better than Shurtleff…… ok maybe not. But there should be someone else. jmo

  97. Sensitivity for polygamists is fine, but in my opinion, there has not been enough “sensitivity” for Muslim women who found themselves involved in polygamous relationships without their consent.
    Where is the sensitivity for their plight ?

  98. I would encourage them to come forward once they find out if they don’t approve. Maybe a financial incentive will make it more likely they do so. If the do approve then more power to them.

  99. Encouraging people is difficult especially if: they don’t speak English, they don’t know that social services are available, they are counseled by their religious leaders and social community to accept it because it “is the man’s right”. Also, the xenophobia that has increased since 9/11 leaves little sympathy for these women in main stream America. It’s not near the top of most church group’s list of charity activities, but IMHO it should be.

  100. They do come forward Alinusara, but nothing is done by law enforcement, other than suggesting these wives divorce their husbands on the grounds of infidelity. Never is prosecution for polygamy considered by law enforcement.
    In the meantime, the husband is busy extracting money from the first wife’s bank account to give to wife #2, 3, 4. BTW, I have never met a Muslim first wife who approved of her husband’s second, third or fourth wife, so your statement ” if they do approve, then more power to them” makes no sense to me.
    And I have never

  101. CW,
    Hard to sue for divorce when your bank account’s been emptied. I wonder why they don’t prosecute bigamy? If she did not approve or even know, then in the US, it’s bigamy, right? Fraud. Why is a Muslim woman legally different than a Baptist woman who finds out her husband has married in another state? Is it because the marriages take place in another country where it is illegal? Or is it some weird double standard.

  102. Walton,
    I did not know that Gary Batchelor was a negotiator in that situation.

    I do know that the Utah Department of Corrections officer who was killed by Adam Swapp was Fred House whose sister, Dawn House, was a reporter for the Salt Lake Tribune newspaper.

    It was all such a sad tragedy.

    I don’t think the Utah Board of Education backed off on enforcing home schooling laws to save money.

    I think they did it because John Singer’s widow, Vickie, sued the State of Utah and the Governor for $110 million dollars. Her attorney was Gerry Spence of Wyoming.

    I think the State Board of Education just decided it was too touchy of an issue to deal with and it was best to “not go there”.

    I think Anne Wilde’s husband, Ogden Kraut, was pretty close to John Singer. I recall seeing a photo of the two of them together.

  103. Betty,
    These Muslim men married women in foreign countries, often while on a vacation, or even over the phone, without the consent or knowledge of the first wife.
    When the first wives file complaints with the mosque, nothing is done. I know this, because once I tried to assist a Muslim woman with filing such a complaint. Both she and I were “blown off” and told it was the right of a man to have 4 wives, even in the US where polygamy is illegal.
    When these first wives file complaints with law enforcement, they are told to get a divorce because there is no evidence in the US that their husbands are polygamists.
    Usually their husbands have diverted funds from the joint account by the time that wife #1 becomes aware, so they have little in the way of funds to pursue a divorce action.
    Now some of the Muslim clergy have become so emboldened that US mosques are now performing the second marriages in the US without the first wife’s approval. It is happening and nothing is being done about it, due to “cultural competency” and “sensitivity” training.

  104. Anon. Your right it was Anne Wildes husband. Ogden Kraut. My mistake. Vicki sued but didn’t win.

    I had read an article when Swapp was up for some type of hearing and Fred Houses wife made a brief statement. Very sad story.

  105. Catwhisper and Betty don’t you think that the programs already in place should be able to handle such situations. Maybe send the people already in place back for some training. Do we need more programs that need more people to monitor them?

    Domestic Violence should educate themselves more on dealing with both the Muslim issues and Polygamy issues.jmo

  106. Yes, the people already in place (ie law enforcement, social service agencies) should be dealing with the issue head on, but because their “cultural competency training” teaches them that they must respect other cultural traditions, they don’t enforce laws against polygamy.
    That is the problem.

  107. Are you talking all over or just Utah?

  108. all over, Walton.
    I don’t live in Utah.
    There are more Muslim polygamists in the US than there are Mormon polygamists – there is some data which supports this.

  109. All kinds of monies.

    Heck even SuperDell would be better than Shurtleff…… ok maybe not. But there should be someone else. jmo

    Walton said this on December 12, 2009 at 11:10 AM

    Yes Walton, “all kinds of monies”. In March 2008, the Utah Legislature passed a bill to give the Safety Net Committee more than $300,000 in funding.

    It started in June 2008, so it will be up for renewal in 2010 (I think funding was approved for just a 2-year period).

    This current funding is basically to pay for a Safety Net coordinator, a case manager/counselor and educating the public on how to interact with and help polygamists.

    The previous US Department of Justice $700,000 grant for the Safety Net Committee provided money for victims for such things as emergency housing, transportation to leave an abusive polygamous relationship, legal fees for divorces and child custody matters and a case manager.

    10% of the $700,000 DOJ grant ($70,000) was specifically for paying for victim assistance.

    This new Utah Legislature funding for the Safety Net Committee pretty much only pays for 2 counselors for the victims. One is Pat Merkely who is the Safety Net Coordinator and runs support groups in the Salt Lake City area for the polygamists in the northern part of the state. The other counselor works in the St. George area with the polygamists in the southern part of the state.

    Counseling is important for these women and children. But counseling is a limited part of what the Safety Net Committee does.

    And Walton … NO on SuperDell!

  110. Yes, I agree we don’t need new government agencies. But I do think that we could use a couple of non profit action organizations for Moslem women in the US to help educate both the women and LE and domestic shelter workers, etc.

  111. Walton,
    That makes more sense that it was Ogden Kraut instead of Gary Batchelor. Gary Batchelor would have been too young to be involved in the Singer/Swapp situation IMO.

    I think you are recalling the hearing for Adam Swapp a couple of years ago when he wanted to change prisons.

    He is housed in prison in Arizona and he wanted to be moved to Utah. It was denied since the man he killed, Fred House, was an officer with the Utah Dept. of Corrections.

    They thought it would not be a good idea to have Adam in a prison run by officers who are “brother officers” of the man he killed.

  112. I hope you know I was kidding about SuperDell. I know I didn’t put the lol or the j/k but I was just kidding.

    So are you saying that the Safety Net is needed?

    I am saying that there are programs in place that should be able to take care of those needs.

    I live near a reservation and there aren’t any special programs to help them with some of the cultural differences.

    I also live near a military base and I can tell you that there are NOT enough programs out there to help our vets or the families of veterans imo

    The lines are long all over for people needing help with this or that and the money tree isn’t growing as fast as it should.

    I say train the people already in place. jmo

  113. “Actually insanity, not religion, anywhere is a scary thing.”

    Brian Mitchell isn’t insane — he’s crazy like a perverted fox. Funny how Mormonism spawns that.

  114. “Maybe so DD, but Pat Merkely is going to see to it that social workers and law enforcement in those states treat the polygamists with respect.”

    Every human being should be treated with respect, even those who break the law. However, respect does not preclude enforcing laws to protect women and children.

  115. with regard to training those already in place, I concur, but in some venues, officials are trained that “cultural competency” dictates that coercive polygamy should be tolerated and not prosecuted.
    Coercive religious Polygamy has a negative effect on women and children as extensively documented in the medical literature, and therefore, it should not be tolerated.

  116. The women’s shelter I volunteer at covers more than 8 counties and about 1/6 of the whole state of Virginia. It is mostly rural, but it is not a poor section of the state. Every other year it has a crisis of funding and there are questions if it will stay open. It is horrible to me that if a rural woman needs a place of safety to go to, they have to drive an hour on country roads to get there. And if that were gone? They’d have to go to either Norfolk, Williamsburg or Richmond, an hour and a half to two hours for most of them. It’s really sad. We say we value the family, but when we have to put our time and money where our values are, Americans sometimes fall short. Ironically, the shelter is named after a woman who sought shelter in Richmond, but they were full and her ex-husband killed her before they could take her in. He waited for her at the courthouse where she was going for a custody hearing and shot her just a few feet from policemen and safety. Then he shot himself. Happens all the time, all over the US.

  117. To 40 and.., Al, Brooke, and all other apologists for child rapists under the guise of religion…1) if you have any proof that Carolyn was involved in the raid, I would love to hear it, 2) I hear from people that interacted with Barbara that her temper was bad well before she developed the tumor, and 3) did you ever wonder what could have made carolyn leave her family, culture, religion and “happy home” and live in abject poverty for years with no child support or concern for her children from merril, barbara and the rest of the “FLDS chosen people?” I bet there are many reasons, but chief among them is she forsaw them marrying off her underage daughters to the priested!!! Just look at Merrianne.. Finally, I don’t care if the the evidence is thrown out…it doesn’t deny the fact -in the FLDS’s own words – that they were scr*wing little girls!!! So attack carolyn all you want, but she had the b*lls to say NO…Hell NO.. to the perverts!!!

  118. catwhisper I am running on slow today. I still don’t understand what you are saying.

    Are you saying that when they come in for help they AREN’T doing what the law says for them to do? Like follow thru? And they are encouraged to buck up and go back?

  119. Hey Anon. Check this out and save it for later. Interesting reading.

    https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/068-10-17.pdf

  120. highlands if you check the letter written on WildBills or better yet have a good Doctor look it over you would see that Barbara had some issues. jmo

  121. Walton,
    I am not saying that the Safety Net Committee should or shouldn’t exist.

    I was just providing some background on it and how its funding has changed and how its spending has changed and how its focus has changed. That’s all.

    Thanks for the Sunstone article by Ogden Kraut. That should be a good read.

    You are such a great researcher! I am always so impressed with the treasures you find.

  122. Betty,
    Good for you volunteering at the DV shelter.

    What a sad story about the shelter’s namesake.

  123. Anon. I only share what others have written. I am the lucky one. Tell ya a quick story.

    My parents always encouraged us kids to read. Read Read and Read some more. Pack us up and take us to the library. Weekly newsletters, newspapers book clubs the whole thing.

    Every Sunday we could go to a little place called the Arcade (sold magazines, books, comic books and penny candy.) We got 50 cents to buy what ever we wanted as long as there was a book involved.

    Dad said that a book can take you all over the world and to the moon and back if you finish a book from front to back.

    Found out years later my dad couldn’t read.

    Now how lucky am I? very lucky. and even more so grateful to those that write.

  124. My point about the virginia DV shelter is that it’s not just rural Utah where there aren’t enough services for women and families.

  125. Betty,
    You are absolutely right about that!

    Women (and men) who are abused need a safe place to go to get away from the danger. And it needs to be close by, not hour(s) away.

    Communities need to keep that in mind.

    Domestic Violence knows no social boundaries. Anyone could become a victim at any time.

    Sad, but true.

  126. This should be a really powerful documentary. I’m so glad the Sundance Film Festival is including it.

    http://coloradoindependent.com/44043/sundance-to-premiere-film-documenting-mormon-push-to-defeat-gay-marriage

  127. Most of the shelters where I live are funded by non-profits, including the United Way. We have a couple which are funded by different religious organizations, but all of them any woman or women with children can go and stay until they get on their feet, the shelters help the women get counseling, a job, or job training, and our city has a city funded free daycare for women who can’t afford daycare services.
    Once the women get jobs, the shelter actually help them find a place to live and pay their deposit and first months rent.
    The so called “safety net” in Utah is continually changing the wording of their mission to abused women, children, and seriously that bothers me. Just as I would have NO respect for anyone religious or non religious who abuses women and children, I think it sucks, the safety net keeps talking about respect for Flds religious practies, and I don’t like it all!!!

  128. Walton,
    What I am saying is that Muslim women whose husbands marry a second wife often go to the mosque or to an attorney or they call the cops to report that their husband has taken a second wife.
    Nothing is done to the polygamous men usually. No follow through by law enforcement.

  129. Boy DD,
    Your community is REALLY lucky to have such a progressive and thorough program/package for these women.

    What they offer these ladies is really impressive.

    The women in my community only get a fraction of that kind of help to get on their feet.

  130. Walton,
    Your dad is a real hero in my eyes.

  131. Cat,
    What you said sounds SO familiar.

    It really IS a man’s world.

    It makes me sick when I get slapped in the face with that fact.

  132. We are fortunate in my town, but many towns in Texas do this same thing for abused women and children. And it can be done without the help of tax dollars, it just takes a willingness to want to help.
    Junior League here has their on store, where people can donate slighty worn clothes for women and children, so they can have free clothing, they even help them pick out clothes for interviews for jobs, and its all free to them.

  133. Good for the Junior League. I have no doubt that they are REALLY nice clothes if they were donated by the JL.

    What this does for a woman’s self-esteem is incredible. She will look good on the outside, and feel good on the inside.

    Developing good self-esteem is SO important for abused women and children.

  134. Our women shelter also has a resale shop , staffed by volunteers and all proceeds go to the shelter.It also is connected to the community college and receives many grants, etc. It is well staffed, has a good counseling program, child care etc. Very much supported in this community, fund raisers are well attended and it has helped many. My best friend helped to set it up over 30 years ago, worked there for a few years but left when 3 girls got shot by their husbands, she saw too many women going back to their abusers.
    Messing with someones brain is very powerful.
    I don’t think that regular women shelters could help the FLDS women very much, except to keep them safe when sheltered. Their whole life functioned on a different set of values and they need very specialized care.
    BTW, it is my custom to mail a donation to the Hope organization every time Carolyn, Elissa or Natalie get slammed. Considering Brooke’s article very vicious in regards to Carolyn, here comes another donation 🙂

  135. That’s awesome C-M 🙂

  136. We had a domestic violence shelter in Nevada turn a polygamist woman with children away, because “no one was abusing her”.

    There is a need to educate LE, social workers and DV staff about polygamy. Unfortunately, it looks like the Safety Net is the only organization out there with the funding to do it. Hope people like what they get.

  137. Ack, Boots, what did they consider abuse, physical only or ??? if they didn’t want to give relief to this slave woman and her children?

  138. I shudder to think what would happen if polygamy was legalized in this country. Decriminalization scares me as well.
    I have seen too much.

  139. France’s anti cult law is just what we need here in the United States. Not only would it allow the arrest of Mormons, but even other cults like Jehovah’s witnesses, Muslims, radical Baptists, and Scientologists.
    http://bernie.cncfamily.com/acm/anti-cult_law/france/what.htm

  140. What’s shakin’ shapeshifter?

  141. You know, I’ve lived here about two months now and Jehovah’s Witnesses have been too busy somewhere to find me again. What is it they always want to leave, Watchtower? I kinda like that, not being bothered. I once told them I couldn’t read.

    Another bunch wanted to know if I was frightened about the nuclear problem. That puzzled me, so I asked which one. She got all confused as if I should know which one, left her silly paperwork and took off.

    I guess the funniest maybe was once when I’d had enough of the real world and people wanting me to do things, I took Ted my golden retriever who was just a kid back then, loaded us into my VW microbus and headed west. I drove out into somebody’s ranch and parked, walked the doggy then we went in to go to sleep. We slept through a remarkable pounding rainstorm, just what I needed.

    In the morning I set to perking some coffee after I explained to Ted those things out there were cows. He’d whuff-whispered to wake me, not too sure of those things but they are BIG. So I got to thinking about stuff like my toothbrush and hairbrush, quite certain I probably looked quite terrible since my escape. Sat there with the door open to the clean fresh air and cattle and birds and stuff and uhoh, here comes a car up the caliche road I’d driven in on last night.

    It pulled up by my campmobile and stopped.

    A man and woman in Sunday go to meetin clothes and their two little girls in frilly church dresses all got out and closed in on me. Honest to pete, here I sat uncombed and unwashed, miles off a paved road with Ted looking over my shoulder, an unused so far hairbrush in my hand and coffee perking out the coffee aroma accompanied by the occasional bloopbloop of perking and a family of people I don’t know want to come visit.

    How the heck did Jehovah’s Witnesses find me out there, I ask you.

  142. Kingman Daily Miner article on Friday’s hearing in Kingman regarding Piccarreta’s request to interview Dan Fischer, Sam Brower and Roger Hoole.

    http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=35144

  143. Twist, I really do not understand the “thinking” of these people FLDS hire. The notions they present for the court records are astoundingly dishonest. Or maybe stupid’s another word. I hope they’re getting paid in advance like Parker is and and maybe Pic.

  144. Bluesman or Ron – can you tell me what kind of writ this is, please?

    FIFTH DISTRICT COURT-ST GEORGE
    G RAND BEACHAM December 16, 2009
    Courtroom 3A Wednesday
    09:30 AM WRIT OF REPLEVIN/ASSISTANCE 090503306 Contracts
    CITIBANK ATTY: KAYE, ANTHONY C
    MONCUR, MATTHEW L
    VS.
    CABINETEC INC ATTY:
    DPK INDUSTRIAL PROPERTIES LLC
    DONALD & SALLY COX LP
    CABINETC OF ARIZONA LLC
    PARADIGM SOLUTIONS LLC
    TRIPLE SEVEN EXPRESS LLC
    CABINETC CALIFORNIA INC
    COX, DONALD I
    COX, SALLY B

  145. GrannyToad,

    Yes, the staff at the DV shelter assumed that polygamy was not in itself enough to consider anyone abused.

    That’s a shame, because polygamy *is* abuse.

  146. They need to be paid in advance to help buffer all the chuckling going on behind their backs when they file this crap.

  147. I’ll probably get this at least half wrong, but I think replevin is when someone won’t give back something they’d borrowed money against to buy, or maybe put up to cover security for a cash loan, but aren’t paying for on the loan. Like asking the court to demand repossession for the creditor – because the secured object is being kept from the creditor, often its hidden. It’s about things, not real property.

  148. The Lafferty brothers were followers of a Robert C. Crossfield (Prophet Onias) who founded a School of the Prophets in Utah in the early 1980s.

    Robert C. Crossfield is said to be from Cardston, Alberta, Canada which is where the Bountiful group has their origins. He is also said to have spent some time in Lister (Bountiful).

    Two of Brandon James Blackmore’s wives are Emily Gail Crossfield and Gail Ruth Crossfield (presumably sisters).

    Does anyone know if there is a relationship between Robert C. Crossfield and Brandon Blackmore’s wives? And if so, what is it?

    Is Brandon James Blackmore a brother to Winston Blackmore?

    If not, whose son is he? I think I have that somewhere, but can’t locate it at the moment.

  149. Brandon James Blackmore and Emily Gail Crossfield are the parents of Mildred Marlene Blackmore who was at YFZ in April 2008 at the age of 17 and a wife of Warren Jeffs who is said to have married him when he was 13.

    Several of Brandon James Blackmore’s daughters by both Crossfield wives are said to be married to Warren.

  150. Huesos,
    Thanks for your input. The actions you described sound exactly like something the FLDS would do.

    Maybe they can’t give the “stuff” back because it has been taken to Zion.

    Defaulting on loans happens a lot around here – I have found other court filings by banks and other financial institutions trying to recover equipment that were defaulted on by FLDS members.

    Some of them have defaulted and then just disappeared. It ends up just costing us all!

  151. To be fair, as reported by Jon Krakauer in “Under the Banner of Heaven,” Crossfield’s School of the Prophets is said to have rejected Ron Lafferty’s “revelation” that he was to kill his sister-in-law and niece.

    The Lafferty brothers were kicked out of the School of Prophets.

    I don’t have the book within reach, but if I’m remembering correctly, the School of the Prophets was told about the “revelation” prior to the commission of the act, but did nothing to report the threat to any authorities. Someone correct me if I’m wrong about that.

  152. Highlands: did you ever wonder what could have made carolyn leave her family, culture, religion and “happy home” and live in abject poverty for years with no child support or concern for her children from merril, barbara and the rest of the “FLDS chosen people?”

    ………………….
    In one of Carolyn’s interviews, she says that she knew the move to the walled compound at YFZ was coming, and that would be a much harder place to leave, so she hurried to get out while she was still in Short Creek. Also, two of her children confirmed that Barbara Jessop was abusive to them. Carolyn is not the only former FLDS to claim that sister wives express their jealousy and retain household power by physically abusing other wives’ children.

  153. A higher incidence of domestic violence in polygamous households has well described. There is published medical data which shows that sister wives often abuse the children of one of the rival wives. In Malaysia, the children of rival wives are sometimes killed.

    It is no accident that the Biblical word for sister wife is “t’zarah” which means enemy, opponent, or rival.

  154. Domestic Violence knows no social boundaries. Anyone could become a victim at any time.

    Sad, but true
    …………………………

    I agree that domestic violence knows no social boundaries, but I disagree that it can happen to anyone.

    It has not nor will it ever happen to me because I chose a husband who, like so many wonderful men, is incapable of raising his hand against women and children.

    Girls who are raised to believe that strong personal boundaries are an absolute necessity to get safely through life can spot the red flags of a potentially controlling and abusive relationship early on. Society is not going to teach them this, they need to learn it by example from strong mothers and gentle fathers, who have a role model marriage that values equality between men and women.

    I can go on and on about this issue of the importance of women’s boundaries, but here is an example that has always intriqued me:

    On July 14th, 1974, Ted Bundy abducted and murdered two young women, one after the other, from Lake Sammamish State Park in Washington. He tricked them into getting into his car by asking them to go with him to help him with his boat.

    What I find interesting, is that on that day he asked at least six other women to help him, they said no and later told police that he gave them the creeps.

    Why did those two poor young girls say YES when other women knew something wasn’t right and said NO?

    While abduction and murder is an extreme, too many young girls are still saying yes when they should be saying no.

    For the FLDS, like all cults, personal boundaries are the enemy, because they would make control impossible, and it’s all about power and control; not love, not family, not God.

  155. Anon, while all those YFZ photos from the air showed loads of heavy equipment. Once I saw all that and knowing what thieves and liars this crime family are, I posted somewhere that I hoped LE identified each and got serial numbers. Maybe I should have phoned the Schleicher Co sheriff, I don’t know how much he really knew/knows about these honeybucket FLDS.

  156. I get funny notions sometimes. Someone I know knew that a neighbor was crossing his property in NM and parking vehicles with TX license plates. The reason for crossing his property was access, rugged country. The neighbor could walk or ride a mule to get to that other part but not drive, but this other way could be driven. Soooo my friend had that corner of his property fenced off so that those vehicles were in there sans helicopter or destroying his fence.

    The vehicles were stolen from mostly one county in Texas. That’s what I learned when I phoned in the lic #s and vin #s.

    I’m so bad I’m good.

  157. Warren Jeff’s dictations are indeed fascinating reading. He was driving all over the USA, stopping at state capitals, and symbolically kicking dust on their doors “against this state and this nation.”

    “I leave a record that all the states we have passed through are most wicked. All the places we have witnessed are most wicked. THIS NATION MUST BE SWEPT CLEAN FOR ZION TO RISE.” Caps are mine. Sounds like his ultimate fantasy was for our entire country to be under his control.

    And then this, for a good laugh: “The Lord directs that I go to the sun tanning salon and get sun tanned more evenly on the sun tanning beds.”

    Uh Warren, apparently the Lord forgot to mention how dangers of th electric beach re: skin cancer.

    And while staying in motels he checked out what was on TV, and was so appalled at seeing full frontal nudity, he had to stay up until 2 am watching it.

  158. CW wrote “It is no accident that the Biblical word for sister wife is “t’zarah” which means enemy, opponent, or rival.”

    I wonder if that is the word used in Leviticus 18 when it says not to set up your wife’s sister as her rival.

  159. No, it is not from Leviticus.
    It is from the Book of Samuel (dealing with the issue of Hannah and Peninah) and also from the Talmud.

  160. Anon

    He was amazed that all hotels had pay per view porn. What he didnt realize, is they put it there to ensnare offended yet curious persons – LIKE HIM.

  161. This is Leviticus 18:18 –
    Thou shalt not take thy wife’s sister for a harlot, to RIVAL her, neither shalt thou discover her nakedness, while she is yet living.

  162. CW,
    Hard to sue for divorce when your bank account’s been emptied.
    ========================================================
    Aye Betty. Hence why I suggested giving them a financial incentive to come forward.

  163. Betty:
    This is Leviticus 18:18 –
    Thou shalt not take thy wife’s sister for a harlot, to RIVAL her, neither shalt thou discover her nakedness, while she is yet living.

    ………………….

    So many FLDS men marry their wife’s sisters, how do they get around this? By having the sister-in-law keep her clothes on while they screw her?

  164. Ms Mouse,

    I think that they are giving more weight to the revelation of the living prophet than the Old Testament. They regularly break several of the prohibitions in Leviticus. I guess they think God was just joking about that abomination this and abomination that stuff.

  165. Alinusara,
    So you agree these Muslim men who take second wives without their first wives consent or knowledge should be prosecuted – glad to hear it.

  166. Yes, the FLDS believe that the command in Leviticus against marrying a woman and her sister has been nullified by subsequent revelation of the “Prophet” who is apparently more enlightened than Moses …. go figure.

  167. they don’t give much revelation to the new testament either, where Christ said, One man, One wife!

  168. Every new proffft brings a new set of rules. In 2030 the FLDS will stand for

    Funny Little Dumb Stumps.

  169. It appears if all us follow the New Testament exactly a whole bunch of us are in trouble:

    “Matthew 19:3-9 speaks about divorce. Jesus Christ shows that God never wanted man (or woman) to divorce. The same is true with polygamy. God does NOT want a man to have more than one wife. Jesus said that “a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

  170. Amen, Brother Alinusara !!!!

  171. And what does that have to do with having 35 wives alinusara?
    Polygamy was NEVER condoned by God, or Christ. It took some funky prophet whose sexual appeitite couldn’t be satified like Joseph Smith to come up with the polygamy dogma.

  172. Old Joseph chose to call them “celestial wives” instead of concubines as the bible does. But the meaning is same.

  173. 1 Corinthians 7 : 2 : Let every man (singular) have his own wife (singular), and let every woman (singular) have her own (singular) husband.
    The word used for a woman having her own husband is different than the word used for a man having his own wife. Her “ownership” of her husband is more exclusive in the original Greek in this verse.

  174. There’s a difference between me ignoring the NT proscription of divorce. I don’t claim to be living according to the Scriptures. I am not a religious leader who says that I am a Christian.

    But a religion that claims to be Bible based and then turns around and repeatedly and flagrantly breaks the clearly stated rules from the Old Testament is something else again. It’s called HYPOCRISY.

  175. I agree with that assessment Betty

  176. Betty: I think that they are giving more weight to the revelation of the living prophet than the Old Testament. They regularly break several of the prohibitions in Leviticus. I guess they think God was just joking about that abomination this and abomination that stuff.

    ………………………..

    Well, they break the Ten Commandments all the time. The goal of their religion is not to honor God, but to set themselves up with a big celestial payoff in the form of their own personal planet to rule over.
    I wouldn’t give a hoot about such nonsense, except for all the children and women whose lives are used to glorify a select few white men. They give more weight to the living prophet than they do the Gospels. It makes me cringe to hear Warren Jeffs use the name of Jesus to manipulate his followers.

    God is speaking through a man who is a liar, an adulteror, a felon, and a porn watcher? I think not.

  177. Yes, they absolutely break the Ten Commandments, all the laws of the Old Testament, and the New Testament – and then they claim to be of the Christian faith – something which outrages me.

  178. Mormons are NOT Christian. After finding this guy – Shawn McCraney, http://www.bornagainmormon.com/and watching many of his shows at http://www.hotm.tv/about.htm
    I realized the mormons’ still had me listed as a member…so I sent in my formal RESIGNATION letter. And what a good day that was.

  179. Glad you watched it ! No, Mormons are NOT Christian, despite
    their claims to the contrary.
    Be sure to watch Polygamy : What Love is This ?
    as well.

  180. Thanks Cat. Great site.
    Never realized how much baggage I carried around..due to this crazy ‘church’.

  181. Cat, Is GFNY OK?

  182. Yes, I emailed her last night.

  183. But a religion that claims to be Bible based and then turns around and repeatedly and flagrantly breaks the clearly stated rules from the Old Testament is something else again. It’s called HYPOCRISY.
    ==========================================
    I figure that when a group of people impose a moral code on another group that they don’t follow themselves that is also called HYPOCRISY>

  184. Glad you watched it ! No, Mormons are NOT Christian, despite
    their claims to the contrary.
    ========================================
    I agree that the Mormons have some strange beliefs but if behind the core of their beliefs they believe the only way to salvation is the acceptance of Christ and the asking for forgiveness then they fit the definition of Christians.

  185. Alinusara,
    They don’t have a belief system which is Christian – see the website http://www.bornagainmormon.com or go to the Polygamy : What Love is This ? website.

  186. Alinusara,

    No one in my house has married multiple jail bait girls. Nor have we “exposed the nakedness” of any really close relatives and step children. So I’m fine with calling the FLDS on abominations. If you think those things are normal, then that explains a lot about your postings.

  187. The Conn & Piccarreta Dance

    http://www.mohavedailynews.com/articles/2009/12/14/news/local/local6.txt

  188. Boots, I love the description of Carolyn Jessop as “a well-known critic of the FLDS.” Well, duh. She suffered decades of abuse and narrowly escaped with her children, and she continues to be hounded by them. That would plunk me down on the side of the critics, for sure.

  189. God gorbid they have a well known critic like the Attorney Generals, or the Senate Polygamy Committee that Reid cant get off the ground!

  190. “I figure that when a group of people impose a moral code on another group that they don’t follow themselves that is also called HYPOCRISY>”

    You mean like the men of the FLDS imposing a moral code on the teen girls? One that they haven’t matured enough to determine is actually good for them or not? I agree.

  191. “I agree that the Mormons have some strange beliefs but if behind the core of their beliefs they believe the only way to salvation is the acceptance of Christ and the asking for forgiveness then they fit the definition of Christians.”

    I have read sermons by their prophets and general authorities which declare that the only way to heaven is through Joseph Smith’s pleasure, and that the teaching that Jesus’ sacrifice redeemed sinners is wrong, that some must shed their own blood AND that unconditional love by God is a lie that only by living in “obedience” can one be loved by God. No, when you really dig into the teachings of the Mormon Church you’ll find that Jesus is only a word in their name, not a focus at all. It does rather make their claims of Christianity hypocrisy. The practice Smithianity, or possibly Brigianity, but not Christianity.

  192. Of course, to be fair, Christianity today is more of a Paulianity too.

  193. Judge Conn simply blows me away. The reason discovery is limited in criminal cases is to prevent the defendant from harassing potential witnesses. Conn is doing nothing more that giving Jeffs the ability to intimidate and harass witnesses.

    I guess you can’t expect too much from a Judge that gives out probation for sexual assault of a minor.

  194. Paulianity. Smile.

  195. True, Ron. It’s got me kind of depressed.

  196. TexasConnie,

    You have to understand that Conn agrees with Willie that there are no victims.

    When a sentence of 13 days for the molestation of five girls was handed down, the Mohave County judge who signed off on it said it was okay because he had received hundreds of letters, some from “the victims” from Shortcreek begging for leniency and talking about what a wonderful man this guy was.

    Buster Johnson’s comment was, “Where they written in G-dd**m crayon”?

  197. Makes me glad the leadership is mostly in Texas now. These perverts need to be put away for good.

  198. I have read sermons by their prophets and general authorities which declare that the only way to heaven is through Joseph Smith’s pleasure, and that the teaching that Jesus’ sacrifice redeemed sinners is wrong, that some must shed their own blood AND that unconditional love by God is a lie that only by living in “obedience”

    …………………………….

    The New Testament makes it very clear that believers are saved by grace, not by works – that was the core of Jesus’ message.

    In all fairness, the LDS and the FLDS are not the only alleged “Christian” religions to completely miss the point, IMO.

  199. The New Testament makes it very clear that believers are saved by grace, not by works – that was the core of Jesus’ message.

    Try telling that to the author of the Book of James. For some reason up until the reformation this apparently wasn’t quite so clear.

  200. “The New Testament makes it very clear that believers are saved by grace, not by works – that was the core of Jesus’ message”
    —————

    Slapping a fish on your car or wearing a gold cross necklace doesn’t make you a christian. I’m sorry to be the one to tell you that. Go read the parable of the Good Samaritan.

  201. WC, forcing children into marriages with men in their 50’s isn’t either christian, nor GOOD. Go BACK to Medveckys site and take a bar of soap, and wash that nasty old man’s mouth out!! That can be your Good Samaritan act for the day.

  202. I’m with Ron; I think that’s an invention of the Reformation that was necessary to find a theological rather than political difference of opinion with the Catholic Church. Scripture is ambiguous on that topic depending upon which quote you like best and taking them all together will give you a headache.

    Personally, I like the Sermon on the Mount.

    :Ducks quickly back to my chores to avoid incoming flame bombs:

  203. WC,
    I would suggest that you watch the recorded broadcasts of
    Shawn McCraney, a former Mormon elder, now a Christian evangelist, at http://www.hotm.tv to learn more about the differences
    between Mormonism and Christianity.

  204. 😀

    Seems I discovered the text for a smiley face by accident. Lawsie me.

  205. deputy dog,

    I don’t see where you have much ground for telling someone else to wash out their mouth with soap, but next time I see him I may make that suggestion.

    As far as Christian evangelist’s go- no thanks. I already waste enough of my money on other things.

  206. WC,
    He (Shawn McCraney) is not asking for your money. You might want to view his videos just to see his position on the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. He knows best how to present this, as he was a former LDS elder.

  207. Me: “The New Testament makes it very clear that believers are saved by grace, not by works – that was the core of Jesus’ message”
    —————

    Slapping a fish on your car or wearing a gold cross necklace doesn’t make you a christian. I’m sorry to be the one to tell you that. Go read the parable of the Good Samaritan.

    …………………………

    Why so snippy, WC. You don’t know anything about my personal life and how I show my faith, but if you must know, I am a born again Christian currently attending my neighborhood Presbyterian church. And I have read the parable of the Good Samaritan many times.

  208. Heah, WC if your the same poster on BileM’s board, I would like you to know that he has edited, added to my postings and deleted so many of them I have lost count. He loves to post added comments that are specifically anti-Mormon and you have responded to them. I assume you are unaware that he manipulates his own blog site in this fashion and has made you look pretty foolish in his campaign, which uses means that justify his desired results.

    You will find on this blog a clear voice and devoid of any criminal manipulations. BileM has manufactured the truth, manipulated the facts and offers vulgar personal attacks that should give you pause when deciding the truth, facts and evidence. BileM is not above taking the law into his own hands and destroying evidence which he has been convicted for having done.

  209. Me: The New Testament makes it very clear that believers are saved by grace, not by works – that was the core of Jesus’ message.

    Ron: Try telling that to the author of the Book of James. For some reason up until the reformation this apparently wasn’t quite so clear.

    ……………………

    I’m not a fan of Catholicism either, or any religion that denies women the same status as men. The church I attend has female ministers and lay leaders.

    An interesting (to me anyway) historical note. When Henry VIII was trying to get the Pope to annul his marriage to Katherine of Aragon so he could marry Ann Boleyn, one of his rationalizations was that Katherine was the widow of his brother, making the marriage null and void because she was his sister-in-law.

  210. I didn’t mean to be snippy. I am confident there are good people in nearly every religion out there.

    I have read quite abit of the mainstream christian anti-mormon literature, and to be honest- I have learned quite abit of the truth from reading it which has actually guided me more towards fundamentalist mormonism. When the mormon temple endowment was changed in 1990, it was anti-mormon literature that I was able preserve that important part of the gospel which I give thanks for quite frequently.

    As for these people who try and show you the differences between mainstream modern christianity and mormonism, not wanting your money- that is pretty naive thinking.

  211. Common WC make your reply? Why would BileM be so interested in trying to start a feud between LDS and FLDS members that he focuses his hidden agenda in trying to accompish just that effect. Doesn’t he foolishly want to redefine the argument to look like persecution than prosecution? Doesn’t he harp on the righteous albeit he is irreligious himself. Just what is his agenda and isn’t he willing to watch Utah burn so long as it further his anti-CPS agenda? BileM looks forward to the next Mormon War as being Mormon LDS vs.Mormon FLDS? He criticizes the LDS Church for not being in this affray and warns that they will be next but will they, really?

  212. Betty, for your emoticon pleasure:

    : D (Big smile) : ) (smiley face) ; ) (Winking smile) : lol : (laughing smiley) and : p (sticking out tongue)

    I put spaces between them so the symbols would show instead of the emoticon. 😉

  213. WC don’t you mean Temple endowment change in 1890? Which part of the D&C has discernment over the ‘One Man Rule’ axiom?

  214. I kept my OLD BoM to read in bed as a sleep aid if I had trouble falling asleep. I’ve never gotten one of the new ones to try out if they work as well. Murder an uncle? Worst writing I’ve EVER seen, well at least until I read some of the garbage that trolls and other ignorant duduheads write on blogs.

  215. I can’t speak for Bill. I have respect for him regarding his CPS criticism because he’s experienced it. I don’t agree with everything he says, nor what all the FLDS believe. Most points of belief and doctrine, however, I concur with.

  216. WC then your not actively LDS Church member. That doesn’t exonerate BileM from posting inflammatory rhetoric, re-editing postings, attacking all LE and judicial officials and calling all opponents whores, lesbians and dikes. His jailhouse jargon and unseen hand of manipulation has solicited your comments and postings falsely presented by him to create controversy, then he even joins in on the attack of someone for comments he added to their posting. You’ve been manipulated in discussions and comments that make his blog appear legitimate to other blog readers.

    So if BileM was legitimate he wouldn’t resort to such tactics and so many legitimate voices have stop posting their because BileM has intentionally muted opponents and added postings designed to illicit readership comments and reactions and keep his blog on a “Boil” which BileM created himself.

  217. WC: As for these people who try and show you the differences between mainstream modern christianity and mormonism, not wanting your money- that is pretty naive thinking.

    …………………….

    Well, I certainly don’t want your money.

    And I have noted before, there are many Mormons in my community and the ones I know are the nicest people in the world, but that doesn’t change my personal opinion that Joseph Smith was a charismatic con man who made up his own bible to justify his actions and desires.

    I feel sorry for those who believe that Warren Jeffs is getting divine revelations and that if they don’t abide by those revelations they are rejected by God.

    If you choose to believe in the Holy Spirit, you don’t need permission from a priest, a pope, or a prophet or a husband, or any other human. It’s a direct contact wowza!

  218. I am no defender of CPS departments and their ‘goofs’ are legendary but was the YFZ Ranch Raid/Removal caused by the actions of FLDS members or CPS/CASA representatives. You can sight blame on the removal but the raid was caused by whom?
    Nine ‘Child Brides’ cases are now brought with the first resulting in a conviction. Is this persecution or prosecution of facts and evidence?

  219. http://www.myeldorado.net/

    Computer forensic examiner Lannie Hilboldt took the stand and his credentials were established. He then told about examining a speficic computer on which a photo of Allan Keate was found. In that photo he is shown with what was discribed as a young girl holding and infant and 9 other children.

    Update

  220. Former FLDS member Rebecca Musser then testified and described her plural marriage to former FLDS prophet Rulon Jeffs She also explained that when the elderly prophet died in 2002 she refused to marry his son, the new prophet, Warren Steed Jeffs. Musser said that Warren Jeffs had severly disciplined her on the occasions when she wasn’t completely obedient.

    She went on to say that Warren Jeffs had counseled her about being close to her husband when Rulon Jeffs was still alive. She said that “being close” meant living in the home and being sexually active.

    (Warren wasn’t even the prophet yet, and was ordering people around)

  221. Also here’s an update for San Angelo

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/14/keate-trial-former-flds-member-continues/

  222. Rebeccas Musser–you go girl!!!!!!!

  223. http://www.myeldorado.net/ another update 12:30

    12:30 p.m. Monday, December 14, 2009

    Judge allows evidence in over defense objections

    Defense attorney Randy Wilson repeatedly objected to the introduction of various FLDS priesthood and family records into evidence in the Allan Keate trial, but Judge Walther overruled him and allowed the documents in.

  224. WC

    Really, shouldnt you be above Bill’s schtick? Sure there are flaws in the CPS and foster kid programs – but you arent there for that are you?

    I tend to think you are an old school LDS. Sorry, Joe Smith mormons living the life are still felons.

    The year? 2009

  225. If you think those things are normal, then that explains a lot about your postings.
    ==============================================
    When did I say the word normal? First you accuse me of saying something I never said then you condemn me for the very thing you made up.

  226. This is interesting. And yes, adultery does create victims.

    http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/12/13/general-us-decriminalizing-adultery_7206307.html

  227. Oh btw Mike Piccarreta smells a rat.

    http://mohavedailynews.com/articles/2009/12/14/news/local/local6.txt

  228. I was baptized LDS, but I am a sucker for the truth. And it takes a little work with all the BS around- here, there and everywhere.

    I’ve followed Bill’s blog since the beginning because he get’s the scoop directly from the ranch and he exagerates the absurdities involved with everything anti-FLDS, which keeps me laughing. Although alot of this stuff is tragic and I don’t intend to follow mockery, his commentaries are entertaining- and I’m a sucker for that too.

  229. Wow!!
    Nothing more, nothing less just……Wow!

  230. LOL, Well Alin, Pic was sitting next to warren what else was he supposed to smell?

  231. WC, seriously, you really think Medvecky gets his information directly from the ranch?? LOL HAHAHAHAH
    My God, you will believe anything!!!

  232. She said that “being close” meant living in the home and being sexually active.
    ————
    So, in his dictations, when Warren Jeffs mentions giving training to young girls (or having Naomie or one of his other wives give training) on how to “get close and stay close” to their husband, THAT’S what he was talking about?

    I think I’m going to be sick.

  233. Is Rebecca Musser up to more viciouos sickening attacks such as FLDS and their chupacabras attack other survivors with? Pity those women. They are strong!

  234. Awh, POOOR Piccarata!! You’ll notice Alin, the arictle said Piccaratta wanted to depose Brower and Fischer “AGAIN”! So, how many times does this jerk get to depose people? He already deposed the two men once, and carolyn jessop twice!!! Lets get real Alinusara, the only RAT is PICCARATTA!!!

  235. Yeah, Ellie , exacatly!

  236. Enough is enough with the repetitive depositions.
    This represents harassment.

  237. Utah AG doing his part:Utah’s Attorney General says he plans to talk college football’s Bowl Championship Series and give President Obama a copy of his new book on Dred Scott when he meets him during a holiday reception Tuesday at the White House.

    “I am really going to try and talk college football,” Shurtleff told KSL Newsradio Monday. “The plan is to hand him a copy of my book, and if I get a chance, I will definitely mention BCS.”

    The hope would be to get Pres. Obama, a supporter of a college football playoff, to give a nudge to the U.S. Department of Justice. Shurtleff wants the department to join and spearhead a lawsuit against the BCS.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9029106

    Makes a person feel all warm and fuzzy knowing he is in the position he is in doesn’t it? Gagging icon here>>>

  238. Trial update 4:30

    http://www.myeldorado.net/index.html

  239. This did not get into the trial transcript because of a sidebar during the Warren Jeffs trial in Utah when the subject came up.

    The defense didn’t what this fact to become public.

    But this is some of what Rebecca meant about Warren telling her she had to be “close” to her husband.

    Remember that Rulon was a really old man in his late 80’s or 90’s. He was not physically able to have traditional sex, so he asked Rebecca to perform oral sex on him.

    She refused to do it and Warren found out about it. He reprimanded her and told her that she had to be obedient to her husband (meaning she was expected to perform oral sex on the old man) whether or not she wanted to.

    So much for the old adage that the FLDS only have sex to procreate.

  240. Thats just GROSS!!! Not only is it gross, im wondering if a 90yr old man could get it up even with oral sex.

  241. ugh ! too much information !

  242. Yes, it is really gross. I feel sorry for the females who are taught to be submissive and obedient and are expected to do something like this with an old man. How degrading!

  243. Way too much information.

    I was having a hard enough time imagining anyone having sex with Rulon Jeffs.

    deputydog1…maybe the answer to what you’re wondering can be found in the “gifts of Naomie.”

    Now to get some brain bleach.

  244. Or maybe, like his favored son, Rulon Jeffs enjoyed Brad Pitt movies.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  245. ladysadie

    “LOL, Well Alin, Pic was sitting next to warren what else was he supposed to smell?”

    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

    you got that right!

  246. DD, Maybe all she did was stroke his ego.

  247. Sorry, I only mentioned it in the first place so you’d see how these pious priesthood men pass themselves off, when some of them are just a bunch of old horndogs. (Horny old men).

    I didn’t mean to gross everybody out.

    I should have given a ratings warning – “WARNING: Rated VERY gross” at the beginning of it.

  248. Well in a way the request served a great purpose. She refused, Rulon was left to handle it himself, and Warren couldnt corral Rebecca and she escaped.

    So it worked out great for her.

    And not so much for Warren. Or Rulon. Now the pervs are further exposed!

  249. Anon

    There is a lot of gross and sick things going on in this FLDS group. I kinda think those still reading about them have thickened skin, although that was up there as a top ten lurid detail.

    For one, I am thankful of learning the details and true nature of the cult. It shows why they want to be so damn secretive!

    It opens up the publics eyes to the crimes.

  250. “Oh btw Mike Piccarreta smells a rat.

    http://mohavedailynews.com/articles/2009/12/14/news/local/local6.txt

    Maybe he needs to take a shower? Or use more deodorant?

  251. “This is interesting. And yes, adultery does create victims.

    http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/12/13/general-us-decriminalizing-adultery_7206307.html

    Yes, it does. The men involved in it deserve to be dealt with legally. Funny how you justify institutional adultry — polygyny — and then try to say it’s harmful. Well, DUH!

  252. “I was baptized LDS, but I am a sucker for the truth. And it takes a little work with all the BS around- here, there and everywhere.

    I’ve followed Bill’s blog since the beginning because he get’s the scoop directly from the ranch and he exagerates the absurdities involved with everything anti-FLDS, which keeps me laughing.”

    Am I crazy or did WC actually imply that Medvecky posts “truth”? Would that be the “truth” where he alters people’s posts to say things they would never say or the “truth” where he publishes CPS horror stories that don’t have the right details in any respect? (Like the 7 year old boy who wasn’t seatbelted and dashed into traffic and got killed who was actually a 16 year old girl who claimed she was feeling sick, dashed out of the vehicle and was struck by oncoming traffic. LOL! You’re on the wrong blog, WC! This one tries for truths that are actually true.

  253. Pic smells a rat? Does he wear a mustache?

  254. Anyway. Rebeckah, I agree that was the oddest statement I could imagine, from WC. I cannot imagine he meant what he said any more than I can guess how anyone could or would try to justify rolling in Mudpucky’s muck.

  255. Well,, now we know why Warren had to wear knee pads , he was praying for some oral sex!!!

  256. Reports are that the Prosecution has rested in the Keate case.

  257. really proudtexan?

  258. Are you kidding me?? LOL randy wilson said the state had not met its burden in the case, and ask for dismissal, HAHAHAHAH what an IDIOIT!

  259. wonder if randy has a case to present tomorrow or if we’ll go straight to final arguments and giving the case to the jury.

  260. So when the octagenarian Rulon couldn’t get a blow job, he told his son Warren who then took up the issue with the wife?

    That would mean Warren was essentially playing pimp to his father’s wives with his father as the John.

    These folks put the dys into dysfunction.

    I’m not implying that the wives were/are prostitutes since the majority of them had little to nothing to say about to whom they were married.

  261. Wilson said that, or is this a joke?

  262. The impression I have is that Randy’s defense has been very weak on cross-examination so I don’t see him pulling any rabbits out of his chapeau.

    In some of the San Angelo S-T photos of Keate coming and going from the makeshift courthouse in Eldorado, the look on his face suggests a knowledge that this will not end well for him.

    “Well, how did I get here?…water flowing underground…

    You may say to yourself, ‘My God, what have I done?’…

    …same as it ever was.”

  263. No joke. You can read the update here:

    http://myeldorado.net/

  264. texastwist, you’re right. It took a while for me to find the pictures, but after looking at them, I believe you’re correct.

    I just wanted to address the fact that when certain subjects are brought up on this board, it seems certain posters do all they can to change the subject and set up straw man arguments.

    So far I’ve noted:

    1) The relationship between Warren and Naomi
    2) Passages from the Bible that are anti-polygamy
    3) Kathy Jo or anyone who speaks out against the flds

    I’m sure everyone has noticed it too.

    So why did Warren suffer under the delusion that Naomi was going to die?
    Did he actually want her to die, and why?
    Why did she not have any children?
    What are the ‘gifts of Naomi?’
    Now we know what a heavenly comfort wife and “close to your husband’ means why did WSJ tell his daughter to do it without her sister wives?
    Is stimulation of the sexual organs not by intercourse, and not for procreation limited to the profit, or is that in the priesthood arrangement also?

  265. So I’m thinking…by Friday Keates will be sentenced to the high end of the standard sentencing range.

  266. Also, I think the State of TX, AZ, and UT, should start prosecuting some of these FLDS women.
    I think it would be a huge wakeup call and force these women to think. It might force the men to think, twice.

  267. I think prosecuting the women would be a wakeup call that they are as responsible for the abuse as the men, but I also see it as a double edged sword. Babs would have been the perfect one to prosecute, but she’s no longer with us. The original Keate wife, Nancy Carol Bauer, allowed 2 of her underaged daughters to be given to men. Her sister-wife Nora Jeffs also allowed her oldest daughter to be married underaged. Then there’s Sally Wayman Jeffs Neilsen, she is currently married to Wendell, but she allowed 3 of her daughters to be married underaged. Men are on trial for 2 of them. And of course, Annette Barlow Jeffs, legal wife of the prophet. Two of her daughters were married underaged as sister wives to the same man.

    Indicting these women would certainly send a message to the women, that although they might be brainwashed, their actions weren’t going to go unpunished. It might also make some think twice about doing it in the future, because I for one don’t believe the cult meant it when it issued their no more underaged marriage edict. They were saying what needed to be said to get their children back. Part of their Answer them nothing and it’s ok to lie to authorities to protect the priesthood plans.

  268. “This is interesting. And yes, adultery does create victims.

    BS – they picked the losers – they’re not victims. Besides as I say many times in divorce cases – nothing happens in a vacuum.

    Yes, it does. The men involved in it deserve to be dealt with legally.

    What about the women? Being a little sexist Rebeckah? If we’re going to start prosecuting adulterers I’m going to start doing more criminal law because the courts will be packed.

  269. Yes, it does. The men involved in it deserve to be dealt with legally. Funny how you justify institutional adultry — polygyny — and then try to say it’s harmful. Well, DUH!
    ============================================
    Not really Rebeckhah I’m still consistent. If one of the parties is unaware of the adultery then yes it creates a victim. If both parties consent then go for it.

  270. Alin,
    In my experience, I have never seen a woman consent to it.
    I have seen women coerced into it, and they tried to put a
    happy face on in public. The practice of polygyny is associated
    with negative health outcomes for women and children, and this has been documented in the medical literature in many cultures.

  271. Miele,

    I don’t get Warren’s delusion that Naomie had died or was going to die soon, either.

    Could be more of his projection — Naomie would die on the vine without him, when he was the one dying without the constant presence of the other as he was then incarcerated awaiting trial in Utah.

    Did he actually want her to die?

    It sure read as if he did. That could be because if she couldn’t be with him, he wanted her to be with Rulon — and of course, around no one else.

    As far as telling his last teen-daughter-as-a-teen-bride to get close to her husband away from her sister-wives, I take that to mean Warren was telling her in his own way that the way to power for a woman is for her to use her sexuality to secure her influence with her husband.

    One of my questions — how does Naomie now fill her days since her former constant companion and cohort is unavailable? Does she live at the ranch or does she spend her time at Short Creek or elsewhere to be near her mother?

  272. I think Naomie was on some form of birth control and that Warren didn’t want her to have kids because that would take her attention away from him. Her having kids would prevent her from being his constant companion as she would have someone else to take care of.

  273. One big difference between adultery and polygamy/bigamy.

    Adultery involves the private sexual behavior between two people.

    Lawrence v. Texas has pretty much determined that the state has no authority to criminalize private sexual behavior between consenting adults.

    For the wronged person in an adulterous situation, they have legal recourse available to them through the family courts and civil courts.

    Bigamy/polygamy does not involve sexual relationships, but addresses the contractural aspects of a marriage relationship as governed by the states. One can be convicted of bigamy without the state having to prove any sexual relationship. Sexual contact is not an element of the offense.

    For example, Texas is a community property state.

    If a man could legally have two or more wives how would that work? In the event that the marriage bonds are dissolved, does he gets half and the women have to split the other half? Not exactly an equitable application of the law.

    Or would the persons have to divide all property equally among themselves in the event of divorce or death?

    What if the dissolution is between the man and only one of his spouses? Do you split all property equitably between the two parties, therefore shutting out the other wives, or do you prorate the assets and split those?

    There are many precedents that the states have a legitimate interest in the contractural aspects of marriage.

    Lawrence v. Texas established that the states do not have a legitimate interest in the consensual sexual conduct of adults.

    Apples and oranges.

    And for those out there who keep repeating bad information, adultery is not a criminal act in Texas. It was removed from the Texas Penal Code after Lawrence v. Texas.

  274. Not to mention the fact, Texastwist, that two wrongs makes neither of them right.

  275. Americans Against the Abuses of Polygamy Update :

    The First Amendment’s religious liberty provisions do not shield houses of worship from liability when their staff members or volunteers commit crimes, Americans United for Separation of Church and State has told the Nevada Supreme Court.

    Americans United and several other organizations filed a friend-of-the-court brief Dec. 11 in Nevada’s top court asserting that point.

    The case in question, Ramani v. Segelstein, deals with a woman who says she was sexually assaulted by a cantor at her synagogue after a service. When she reported the assault to the head rabbi, he allegedly ignored the complaint and proceeded to solicit her for sexual favors.

    “The principle of religious liberty must not be sullied by making it a shield for criminal activity,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “The First Amendment was never intended to be interpreted that way.”

    In the brief, Americans United and the other organizations take issue with claims made by the Roman Catholic Bishops of Las Vegas and Reno and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), which argue in their brief that religious organizations should be immune (except in very narrow circumstances) when their employees or volunteers commit crimes like sexual assault.

    The brief filed by AU and others states that the bishops and the LDS church are essentially arguing “that religious entities can harm others without accountability and that somehow the First Amendment operates to create a special, religious enclave of those who must be permitted as a constitutional matter to be unaccountable for the harm they inflict.”

    Many courts, the brief asserts, have rejected this argument.

    “When an employer becomes aware (or should be aware) of behavior that may be harmful and does nothing – or exacerbates the harm as in [this case], the organization should be held liable for the injury that it had the unique ability to avoid through control of the employee or servant,” observes the brief.

    The brief also argues that the fact that a house of worship’s clergyperson may have acted as an unpaid volunteer does not automatically shield the house of worship from liability.

    “Exempting volunteers from normal agency law simply does not comport with well-settled agency doctrine, or the protection of the vulnerable,” argues the brief.

    In addition to Americans United, organizations signing the brief include the Jewish Board of Advocates for Children, Inc.; Survivors For Justice; the National Black Church Initiative; Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests; the National Association to Prevent Sexual Abuse of Children; Child Protection Project; the Foundation to Abolish Child Sex Abuse; the Cardozo Advocates for Kids; Sexual Violence Legal News; Children’s Healthcare is a Legal Duty and Americans Against Abuses of Polygamy.

    The brief was written by Professor Marci A. Hamilton, who holds the Paul R. Verkuil Chair in Public Law at Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, Yeshiva University.

  276. That too, Betty.

    Can you imagine a divorce case where one of Warren Jeffs’ wives files to legally dissolve the marriage?

    The suit would involve XX number of countersuits by persons who have a legitimate interest in any property settlement.

    In order for property to be distributed equitable among the parties, the man’s share would be diluted with each additional wife.

    Come to think of it, legalize it and I’ll marry one of them — knowing that the courts will protect my property rights in the event of a divorce.

    Heh.

    Joking, of course.

    I doubt that most polygamists acually want it legalized precisely because of property rights.

    They want it decriminalized — which it is de facto in Utah and Arizona as long as it involves consenting adults.

    Still to be determined in Texas in the State of Texas v. Nielsen whether a jury will essentially decriminalize it between adults.

    Betcha the defense in that case will bring up the comparison to adultery when we’ve been told all along that marriages involving women beyond child-bearing ages don’t involve sex.

    Of course, now we have the new information about oral sex which casts doubt on the FLDS value of sex as a means of procreation only.

  277. Taking the property rights aspect of marriage into consideration, any legal polygamous/bigamous marriage in Texas to a spouse beyond the first two parties could require the consent of all parties to a marriage contract as their interest in any community property would be affected by any new contracts.

    First wife (and others) could contracturally agree to additional marriages for her spouse as long as her half (or portion) of existing assets at the time are set aside not to be commingled with any subsequent community property.

    Bring on the lawyers!

    Think about it…if polygamous marriages were legalized in the Texas statutes, Annette Jeffs could lay claim to one-half ownership of the Corporation of the President of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    Not a totally bad idea when I think about it.

    Of course, in the event of a divorce, she already has that property right in Texas since she is his legal wife.

  278. Thanks for the information, catwhisperer.

    The arguments in those filings will make for interesting and informative reading.

  279. A question for alin…

    If polygamy were legal in Texas, should Sally Jeffs be prosecuted for bigamy since her legal spouse was not consulted or informed of her subsequent “marriage” to Wendell Nielsen prior to the fact?

    Would that be a legitimate prosecution in your mind?

  280. More questions for alin…

    If polygamy were legal, should it be legal for a man to marry a woman and her daughter(s)?

    If polygamy were legal, should a person be legally able to enter into a polygamous marriage with a person who is also their stepchild/stepparent?

    If polygamy were legal, should a person be legally able to marry someone as long as that person had entered menses if they are female? Where do you really stand on that one?

  281. Yes, that would be a legitimate prosecution would be my first impression. This case is a bit trickier however. Since he left her she could legitimately claim abandonment.

  282. That would be grounds for legal dissolution of the marriage if she were to request it from the state, but she was (and is) still legally married to him.

  283. I think he could also make the argument that she was the one who abandoned the marriage, particularly if he continued to provide financial support while Warren was pondering his fate.

  284. “What about the women? Being a little sexist Rebeckah? If we’re going to start prosecuting adulterers I’m going to start doing more criminal law because the courts will be packed.”

    Mea Culpa, Ron, you’re right! Of course, I’ve admitted before that I tend to be biased along the lines of men being abusers. Women DO commit adultry and bigamy and should also be held legally accountable. (And now we know why I’d have to excuse myself from ever being on a jury involving domestic violence.) 😀

  285. “I think Naomie was on some form of birth control and that Warren didn’t want her to have kids because that would take her attention away from him. Her having kids would prevent her from being his constant companion as she would have someone else to take care of.”

    I remember reading somewhere (although I don’t remember where or who said it) that an astonishing number of women in Short Creek are on birth control for “endometriosis”. Now I’ve used birth control to control endometriosis myself and it is definitely effective, but so is being pregnant for 9 months. Hmmmm. Maybe the women are cleverer than they let on…. 😉

  286. Carolyn’s book talked about the birth control use by Rulon’s wives and that its was said to be for endometriosis, but in reality, it was probably to keep them from getting pregnant by Warren while they were married to Rulon.

  287. Maybe LeRoy should demand his legal family back from Wendell. Wouldn’t that be a stink.

  288. That would be grounds for legal dissolution of the marriage if she were to request it from the state, but she was (and is) still legally married to him.
    =========================================================
    I was unaware that she was legally married and normally my first response would be hell yes she should be prosecuted for bigamy. Especially because I was told that in Texas you cannot even purport to be married.

    However, it’s still a bit tricky. She wasn’t legally married the 2nd time so she could be considered in an adulterous affair and I was told that since Lawrence v. Texas that Texas no longer prosecutes adultery. It happens all the time in the U.S. Husbands and wives break up and while separated find that significant other to go shack up with.

  289. Maybe LeRoy should demand his legal family back from Wendell. Wouldn’t that be a stink!
    =============================================
    It would be a stink if his wife doesn’t want to come back. What are you going to do, force her to go back?

  290. It would be a stink if his wife doesn’t want to come back. What are you going to do, force her to go back?
    ———
    As an adult, Sally Jeffs can continue her misguided allegiance to a pedophile for as long as she likes. LeRoy has legal rights to any children they had together.

  291. LeRoy has legal rights to any children they had together.
    =========================================================
    Absolutely and I would encourage him to file for joint custody.

  292. Huggy McCrybaby popped his cork finally!

    “Why, this infraction shouldnt be a first degree felony! Its no worse than an expired registration!”

    Sorry, Huggy, your arguments have expired in a court of law!

    KEATE

    GUILTY

    THIS

    WEEK

  293. I would encourage him to file for joint custody.
    —————–
    I would encourage him to file for sole custody.

    I forgot to add that while, as an adult, Sally Jeffs can continue her misguided allegiance to a pedophile for as long as she likes. But as a MOTHER, she has demonstrated dangerously poor judgement and extreme negligence for the wellbeing of children in her care.

  294. Former FLDS member Rebecca Musser then testified and described her plural marriage to former FLDS prophet Rulon Jeffs She also explained that when the elderly prophet died in 2002 she refused to marry his son, the new prophet, Warren Steed Jeffs.

    ………………………….

    Speaking as the mother of a stepson, who I love as if he were my natural child, I find this FLDS practice to be particularly disgusting. It’s incestuous.

  295. Thats just GROSS!!! Not only is it gross, im wondering if a 90yr old man could get it up even with oral sex.

    ……………………

    Ewww . . . brings to mind an old George Burns joke about shooting pool with a piece of rope.

  296. “…Especially because I was told that in Texas you cannot even purport to be married.

    However, it’s still a bit tricky. She wasn’t legally married the 2nd time so she could be considered in an adulterous affair…”

    See “purported to be married.”

    There is documentation that the “adulterous affair” was entered into as a “marriage” ane the second marriage was entered into in Texas and Texas is also where she shares a domicile with her purported second husband, who just happens to be charged with three counts of bigamy.

    A similar scenario exists for several other FLDS wives in Texas.

    At least one FLDS woman that I know of obtained, to her credit, a legal divorce from her first husband.

  297. “I would encourage him to file for sole custody.

    I forgot to add that while, as an adult, Sally Jeffs can continue her misguided allegiance to a pedophile for as long as she likes. But as a MOTHER, she has demonstrated dangerously poor judgement and extreme negligence for the wellbeing of children in her care.”

    I don’t think that would be a good idea for him to do, ellie.

    A record exists of him entering into a “marriage” to a then 14-year-old girl in 2004.

    If his brother had not kicked him out, it is entirely possible that we might be discussing his trial this week rather than Keate’s.

    His 14-year-old bride was “married” to Keate at 15 as her second “husband” and she is the alleged victim in Keate’s charge.

  298. Defense for Allen Keate called only two witnesses, namely Dr. John Walsh and Sheriff Doran, to discuss LDS/FLDS beliefs and practices then the visits to the YFZ Ranch and serving of the search warrants. Closing statements are scheduled for 1:00PM and jury should be in deliberations this afternoon.

  299. Closing arguments set for 1:00. The jury will get the case this evening.

  300. About that George Burns comment, this week I found a pair of mystery novels by Mike Befeler, the main character is 85 years old. Lordy this is funny stuff! I hope there will be more novels.

  301. LeRoy has legal rights to any children they had together.
    =========================================================
    Absolutely and I would encourage him to file for joint custody.

    ……………………………

    I wonder how the FLDS and their apologists would respond if the men who had their children taken away and given to other men grew some cajones, wrote books, appeared on Oprah and filed for custody.

    Then maybe, instead of talking about hairstyles and prairies dresses, Oprah could focus on the FLDS predilection for having sex with their teenage stepdaughters.

  302. I don’t think that would be a good idea for him to do, ellie.

    A record exists of him entering into a “marriage” to a then 14-year-old girl in 2004.

    If his brother had not kicked him out, it is entirely possible that we might be discussing his trial this week rather than Keate’s.

    His 14-year-old bride was “married” to Keate at 15 as her second “husband” and she is the alleged victim in Keate’s charge.
    ——-
    So both parents are unfit. And WHY are the kids not in state custody? I’ll never get over how sad it is that CPS just rolled over and let the poor YFZ children go.

  303. That is a good question, ellie.

    It is as if CPS took an “all or nothing” position.

  304. LeRoy and Sally have a couple of daughters who haven’t been married off and were probably saved the underaged marriage fate by the raid. I don’t for one minute believe the FLDS will adhere to the no more promise they made. It was simply made to tell the people what the FLDS thought the people wanted to hear.

    Warren’s nocturnal emissions aside, he also makes things up on the spur of the moment, like the no more underage marriage edict.

  305. They did Twist, but they could surely go back and at least monitor the kids from the men convicted. Warren’s included.

  306. “Why, this infraction shouldnt be a first degree felony! Its no worse than an expired registration!”

    INFRACTION!?!? NO WORSE THAN AN EXPIRED REGISTRATION?!?!?!?? The man is a loser. A complete and total loser. Child abuse is NOT an “infraction” and it is considerably worse than an expired registration. I really wonder about men who justify exploiting and harming children. (And women too.)

  307. I totally agree Rebeckah

  308. Rebeckah,
    “Why, this infraction shouldn’t be a first degree felony! Its no worse than an expired registration!”
    Does this surprise you – consider the source….
    The person who wrote the quoted statement has a significant degree of hostility towards women, and views women as being lower beings than men. So I am not at all surprised that he wrote it. What does surprise me is that he places a veneer of religion over his misogyny and acts surprised or even indignant when you call him on it.
    The most comical thing he has done so far is to make the claim that polygyny benefits women, so women need to send him money for his lobbying efforts. Hmm, I wonder if he should be audited given the fact that he collects funds as a lobbyist….

  309. Brooke Adams just twitted:

    “SA says state entered three letters from Keate to FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs about challenges with his young wife getting “close” to him.”

    OMG he writes to warren that his young “wife” doesn’t like him raping her, well gee what’s an old coot to do?

  310. Anonymous: The person who wrote the quoted statement has a significant degree of hostility towards women, and views women as being lower beings than men. So I am not at all surprised that he wrote it. What does surprise me is that he places a veneer of religion over his misogyny and acts surprised or even indignant when you call him on it.

    ………………………….

    IMO, any religion that does not give equal status, responsibility and power to women is tainted with misogyny, and that includes the mainstream LDS, the Catholic church, Islam, and many more I am sure.

    And yes I have heard the “women are so special we need to protect them” argument used in support of not giving them leadership roles. I don’t buy it.

  311. that was my response too LadySadie.

  312. His 14-year-old bride was “married” to Keate at 15 as her second “husband” and she is the alleged victim in Keate’s charge.
    ……………………

    Sexual exploitation of children is listed as an offense under the RICO act. Money laundering too, of course. Falsifying documents. Obstruction of justice, etc etc.

    And given Warren Jeff’s proclamations against our country re: sweeping it clean for “Zion,” where are the Feds?

  313. LadySadie – Brooke Adams/twitted. LOL.

  314. Keate case gone to the jury. Defense threw in the in vitro/artificial insemination argument. Yeah, right. I’m sure a 16yo girl could find a clinic that would do in vitro. Y’all join me in humming the Twilight Zone theme song.

  315. REALLY/

    HA HA

    I thought they might use the “Turkey Baster” defense! It worked in Utah!

    ONCE!

  316. The turkey baster defense re-emerges….

  317. omg,, cant believe the defense used that stupid argument,, invitro? artifical insemination?? HAHAHAHAHAH

  318. Yes, please give us the Doctor’s name that is performing in vitro fertilization or artificial insemination on a 15 year old girl using the sperm of a 50 something year old married man. Love to see the charges filed on that!

  319. The doctor would probably be charged with professional misconduct if he/she did do that.

  320. Could have been octomom’s doc in the box.

  321. GUILTY!!!!

  322. The Jury just gave verdict!

  323. 4:15 p.m. Tuesday, December 15, 2009

    GUILTY
    Jury convicts Keate of sexual assualt of a child

    A Schleicher County jury moments ago convicted 57-year-old Allan Keate on a charge of Sexual Assault of a Child.
    http://www.myeldorado.net/

  324. If they were really going to be serious about that defense, they would need witnesses to prove that it happened. Like the girl herself and whatever professional who helped her. Personally, I think if the man knew about it and co-operated (and how else would they collect sperm?) and the girl was under aged, he’s just as guilty of sexual assault as if he did it directly.

  325. Brooke twits:

    Allan Keate found guilty after jury deliberates less than two hours, according to Steve Anderson. He will be sentenced tomorrow.

  326. That was quick. They probably spent most of the time laughing about the in vitro suggestion.

  327. Thank the good Lord!!!

  328. Good job, jurors. Seeyas tomorrow.

    You know, like others I’m certain defense could have at least tried to do a better job. Really I can’t think what or how anything would have mattered to bring up since prosecution then gets to examine whatever it was and FLDS sure as hell doesn’t want that to happen: answer them nothing.

    On the other hand, this KISS keep it simple, stupid approach by prosecution is mainly all that is required. DNA &c.

  329. Uncle Thread they had more than DNA!

  330. Texans dont Jive.

    Conviction by Five!

  331. More on the conviction @ http://www.myeldorado.net/ with a picture of Keate being led to jail in handcuffs

  332. Did you see the photo: http://www.myeldorado.net/

    😀

    They might call that compound a Ranch but Texas is holding the shovel and they are cleaning up!! Great Job Texas!!

  333. Guilty.

    Good.

  334. deputydog we must have been posting at the same time.

    I like it. I like it a lot.

    Sheriff Doran and Deputy George with Allan Keate in the middle with cuffs on in front of the LE building. Sweet. 🙂

  335. Good job jurors!

  336. “…what’s an old coot to do?”

    Go to jail. Directly to jail. Do not pass GO.

    And hopefully for a very long time.

    This jury is going to love his Bad Acts, especially the part where he gives away three daughters to be underage brides.

    If I were Randy Wilson, I’d be begging with the prosecutors right now to let Keate switch to sentencing by Judge Walther rather than by the jury.

  337. Whoo Hoo ! Go Texas ! two down, 10 to go.

  338. And if I were the prosecutors, I would say “no way, Jose.”

  339. Me to Twist!!

  340. The turkey baster defense. I can’t believe Randy Wilson went there.

    You know you have a losing cause when that’s the best you can do.

    The only thing I can think of that would top that right now is one of Willie’s asinine comments.

    Quick, Brooke…get Willie on the phone!

  341. OH yeah, Randy went there in his defense of keate, that and how its persecution of Flds… HAHAHHA

  342. DD you know I know there was more to it than DNA but honestly there didn’t need to be a whole lot more.

    It’s nearly unbelievable that UT & AZ have sat at their collective dinner tables all these decades without a care in the world for those generations of children and mothers. I don’t care if they’re descendants of polygamists, child molesters, barbary pirates, train robbers, wagon train terrorist mass murderers, or murdering thieves from miners or US cavalry.

    We OWE protection under the law to the weakest among us out of human decency. LDS-controlled states that want US citizenship and taxpayers’ money owe them more than the y can ever repay. NOW isn’t too late to at least begin to behave like members of the human race.

    I think by what I’ve just written that I am mightily disgusted. I will say that I’m am mightly PROUD of the road Texas is taking.

  343. Twist

    “The only thing I can think of that would top that right now is one of Willie’s asinine comments.

    Quick, Brooke…get Willie on the phone!”

    ==============

    HA HA HA

    Excuse me, please hold, the Priesthoodies are busy right now, banging heads against brick walls in unison!

  344. Thank you Texas.

  345. Stamp,

    They’re just following the goofy leader.

    Fools.

  346. Who will show up tomorrow to testify before the jury, before they declare sentencing?
    Anyone know?

  347. NO ONE C-M

  348. Some of what the jury will hear tomorrow:

    https://texasflds.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/keate-bad-acts.pdf

  349. if i were keate, i’d ask the sheriff if i could just sit in my cell while sentencing went on. it might be easier on him if they aren’t shooting daggers at him while listening to the fact that he gave away 3 of his underaged daughters, including 1 at 13 to the prophet.

  350. Does anyone know what happens to the FLDS wives when the husband goes to prison? reassigned?

  351. We’re all wondering about that one, JonDana.

    Warren Jeffs is the first FLDS in this era to get any kind of a significant sentence and of course, he has not reassigned any of his wives.

    Things could change in time with more of these men probably looking at going away for awhile.

    If something happens to Warren’s royal p-hood, such as having his power usurped by one of his “aspiring” brothers, even his wives could end up with new husbands.

    From some of the reading I have done, I gather that it is important for FLDS women to have as many children as they can. They consider their children to be special souls designated to incarnate for the purpose of participation in the redemption of Zion.

    Idle wives of long-term prisoners doesn’t fit that game plan.

    But then, the mythology can be re-told that the people are not yet worthy enough to redeem Zion.

    I’m stil unable to fathom how the FLDS members cannot see what is happening to them and recognize that Warren Jeffs led them down this particular path.

    We know things they probably aren’t being told, but in this day and age of rapid electronic communication, I don’t see how the FLDS PTBs can prevent every piece of information from getting through.

  352. Miz Twist you are, at the very least, awesome.

  353. Thanks, UT. By nature, I am a curious soul and a gatherer of information. I’ve had a lot of help from many of the fine folks who comment here at FLDS Texas and elsewhere.

  354. The San Angelo S-T is reporting that 17 FLDS members were in the courtroom today when the verdict was delivered. That’s the first such report I’ve read regarding Keate’s trial and it doesn’t specify whether they were present during any testimony and what they might have heard.

    We’ll see what the Eldorado Success reports when their paper comes out tomorrow and hopefully someone will report on whether any residents from YFZ are present during the sentencing testimony.

  355. I just saw this headline “Man charged with being a pimp” on the SL Tribune’s web site and thought OH BOY! Utah is going after Warren

    Why do I get my hopes up about Utah doing anything about the abuses of the FLDS?

    Here is the article. What a bummer!

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14005110

  356. Judge Conn simply blows me away. The reason discovery is limited in criminal cases is to prevent the defendant from harassing potential witnesses. Conn is doing nothing more that giving Jeffs the ability to intimidate and harass witnesses.
    I guess you can’t expect too much from a Judge that gives out probation for sexual assault of a minor.

    Ron in Houston said this on December 14, 2009 at 10:16 AM

    What that article did not mention is that while Judge Conn officially took the motion under advisement, he went on to say that he was inclined to rule that the witnesses had already answered any questions that could possibly be relevant to Warren’s case. Conn indicated that he is going to deny Piccarreta’s motion to depose Brower and Fischer.

    The reason he has not stopped Pic before now is that Matt Smith did not oppose the continued harassment of witnesses and Pic’s numerous requests for depositions. Note that it took out-of-state attorneys to come in to Arizona and argue against Piccarreta. Matt Smith did not oppose or respond to Piccarreta’s request. Conn is not unreasonable, except on his light sentences.

  357. well way to go out of towners. Pic needs to be stopped, but it’d be OK with me if Arizona let Texas try WSJ before they did. I’d take off to go to his trial.

  358. Another one bites the dust
    Another one bites the dust
    And another one gone
    And another one gone
    Another one bites the dust
    Hey, I’m gonna get you too
    Another one bites the dust

  359. Twist: I’m still unable to fathom how the FLDS members cannot see what is happening to them and recognize that Warren Jeffs led them down this particular path.

    ………………………

    The part of their brains that enables them to relate cause and effect and think for themselves has atrophied after generations of disuse.

    Substandard education and inbreeding probably hasn’t helped much either.

  360. Also, their conditioning – brainwashing if you will – was conceived and executed by sociopaths. In a strange circular logic, the more they are punished by apostates, the more righteous and holy they are convinced they are.

  361. New poll up on Brooke’s blog:

    Two convictions and eight trials to go on identical charges. Is it time for plea bargains?

    Yes, the state’s cases are solid down the line. (75%, 6 Votes)

    No, there may yet be a decent defense. (25%, 2 Votes)

    I didn’t vote since there isn’t a place to vote for:

    No, the state’s cases are solid. Why would they want to “bargain?”

    Oh, she’s talking about from the defendants’ perspective.

    Imagine that.

  362. The state might be willing to bargain if they gave up evidence about the crimes of others. That’s usually how it works.

  363. For the FLDS to even admit they did something wrong would cause so much cognitive dissonance that their heads would explode.

  364. Well to be fair if the FLDS defendants pled guilty they would throw away a lot of appellate rights.

  365. Al, they can appeal until the cows come home — they’re guilty and they and everyone else know it. They just deluded themselves into believing their evil god would protect them from the consequences of their crimes.

  366. I’m pretty sure they are guilty as well. Luckily for me I never went down that road. I still await the higher courts taking a closer look at the closer look at the way the evidence was obtained. It appears that women and children are not safe from governmental intrusion as long as the ends justifies the means.

  367. grr was going to edit my statement but too late now to fix that typo.

  368. Al you all speak in tongues anyway, jabberwocky. There’s no place here for trolling.

  369. http://myeldorado.net/

    Betty is in the courtroom. And… Carolyn is expected to testify today. 9:45 and already a recess.

    And I totally agree with Rons statement. Boom!

  370. Ron HA HA HA

    Aint it the truth! But I think the gravy train to pay for all those attorneys is gonna run out of rope.

  371. I’ll bet Betty’s going to testify for the Defense to counteract anything Carolyn says. Funny, but Betty probably doesn’t even know Keate that well.

  372. I didn’t read where Betty was in the courtroom? But Rebecca Musser testified first, and Carolyn is supposed to testify also in the sentencing phase.

  373. oops, never mind, I reread it!
    I just don’t see Betty testifying, maybe she is there to try and intimidate her mother?

  374. Rebecca Musser was 19, when she was married to Rulon Jeffs who at the time was 84!!!

  375. She was Rulon’s 19th wife,,, GROSSSSSSSSS!!!!

  376. Alin: It appears that women and children are not safe from governmental intrusion as long as the ends justifies the means.

    ……………………………………

    The FLDS are not the only people in this country who abuse children, they just happen to claim they have a religious right to do so.

    I don’t know about the rest of the country, but here in Washington, every time it’s in the news that a child has been abused, injured, starved or killed by their parent(s) there is an outcry from the public that CPS is not doing ENOUGH to protect them.

  377. And Warren counseled her on how to “get close” to her husband … even grosser.

  378. I agree. Cps is in a difficult situation. Hence why I usually give them the benefit of the doubt.

  379. Your so full of crap Ali-oop,, Ive seen your post on Medveckys site.

  380. Your so full of crap Ali-oop,, Ive seen your post on Medveckys site.
    ==========================================================
    Heh! In this case I gave them the benefit of the doubt until I started catching them in lies. Once I catch a governmental agent in a lie all bets are off.

  381. If Lawyers Wrote Christmas Stories

    THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS in Legalese
    (Author unknown)

    Whereas, on or about the night prior to Christmas, there did occur at a certain improved piece of real property (hereinafter “the House”) a general lack of stirring by all creatures therein, including, but not limited to a mouse.

    A variety of foot apparel, e.g., stocking, socks, etc., had been affixed by and around the chimney in said House in the hope and/or belief that St. Nick aka St. Nicholas aka Santa Claus (hereinafter “Claus”) would arrive at sometime thereafter. The minor residents, i.e. the children, of the aforementioned House were located in their individual beds and were engaged in nocturnal hallucinations, i.e. dreams, wherein vision of confectionery treats, including, but not limited to, candies, nuts and/or sugar plums, did dance, cavort and otherwise appear in said dreams.

    Whereupon the party of the first part (sometimes hereinafter referred to as (”I”), being the joint-owner in fee simple of the House with the party of the second part (hereinafter “Mamma”), and said Mamma had retired for a sustained period of sleep. (At such time, the parties were clad in various forms of headgear, e.g., kerchief and cap.

    Suddenly, and without prior notice or warning, there did occur upon the unimproved real property adjacent and appurtenant to said House, i.e., the lawn, a certain disruption of unknown nature, cause and/or circumstance. The party of the first part did immediately rush to a window in the House to investigate the cause of such disturbance.

    At that time, the party of the first part did observe, with some degree of wonder and/or disbelief, a miniature sleigh (hereinafter “the Vehicle”) being pulled and/or drawn very rapidly through the air by approximately eight (8) reindeer. The driver of the Vehicle appeared to be and in fact was, the previously referenced Claus.

  382. Said Claus was providing specific direction, instruction and guidance to the approximately eight (8) reindeer and specifically identified the animal co-conspirators by name: Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner and Blitzen (hereinafter “the Deer”). (Upon information and belief, it is further asserted that an additional co- conspirator named “Rudolph” may have been involved.)

    The party of the first part witnessed Claus, the Vehicle and the Deer intentionally and willfully trespass upon the roofs of several residences located adjacent to and in the vicinity of the House, and noted that the Vehicle was heavily laden with packages, toys and other items of unknown origin or nature. Suddenly, without prior invitation or permission, either express or implied, the Vehicle arrived at the House, and Claus entered said House via the chimney.

    Said Claus was clad in a red fur suit, which was partially covered with residue from the chimney, and he carried a large sack containing a portion of the aforementioned packages, toys, and other unknown items. He was smoking what appeared to be tobacco in a small pipe in blatant violation of local ordinances and health regulations.

    Claus did not speak, but immediately began to fill the stocking of the minor children, which hung adjacent to the chimney, with toys and other small gifts. (Said items did not, however, constitute “gifts” to said minor pursuant to the applicable provisions of the U.S. Tax Code.)

    Upon completion of such task, Claus touched the side of his nose and flew, rose and/or ascended up the chimney of the House to the roof where the Vehicle and Deer waited and/or served as “lookouts.” Claus immediately departed for an unknown destination.

    However, prior to the departure of the Vehicle, Deer and Claus from said House, the party of the first part did hear Claus state and/or exclaim: “Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!” Or words to that effect.

  383. Ali-oop, you just proved to me your a nutcase!! Why do you even come here? You refuse to read documents, you refuse to look at evidence. Hell, dogs are smarter than you are.

  384. Heh! In this case I gave them the benefit of the doubt until I started catching them in lies. Once I catch a governmental agent in a lie all bets are off.
    ——–
    Is that so? And yet somehow the numerous lies of Bill Medvecky and the FLDS haven’t phased you yet.

  385. Is that so? And yet somehow the numerous lies of Bill Medvecky and the FLDS haven’t phased you yet.
    ———————————————————–
    Since their paychecks don’t come out of my pocket what they say don’t affect me. Sorry if I hold the government to a higher standard then Joe Blow off the street.

  386. HAHAHAHA, Ali-oop, OF course their paychecks come OUT of you pocket!! Who the hell do you think pays LE, and JUDGES, and Lawmakers??? YOU DO< I DO, every taxpayer does.
    Ignorant TWIT!

  387. And I expect my tax dollars to protect children!!

  388. Ali-oop, you just proved to me your a nutcase!! Why do you even come here? You refuse to read documents, you refuse to look at evidence. Hell, dogs are smarter than you are.

    …………………………

    Actually, he sorta kinda admitted they might be guilty. But then, as is usual for the apologists, tries to change the topic to the validity of the raid.

    Raid or no raid, you can’t get around the FACT that they are middle aged men having sex with minors.

    Sorry Alin, but that is morally wrong as well as being a felony, as much as you wish that weren’t so.

    Why don’t you and the other apologists come right out and admit the real reason you are pissed has nothing to do with the rights of women and children: you’re pissed because our society won’t give you the go-ahead to have sex with children.

    Substitute little girls for little boys, and the FLDS is no different from NAMBLA.

    God Bless Texas!

  389. Very True Anon E Mouse!!!!

  390. Anon E Mouse when this news about ‘Child Brides’ was first breaking into the news do you recall WeeWillie’s denial that he even knew it existed, then the arguing that Merriann was given to Warren only by spiritual wedlock, DNA tests proving the children were fathered by adult priesthood members, then Warren’s dictations discussing legal consequences and protecting the priesthood men and finally today the outright claim that sexual assault of a female teen by her like-aged boyfriend or a 30,40 0r 50 year old FLDS priesthood member is no difference and the law needs to be changed. Our society has written ‘Romeo and Juliet’ clauses into rape/sexual assault charges for very valid reasons like the maturation, lack of adult status and obvious innocence of both parties to teen-age sex. For there now to be those amongst the Warrenite faction asking for tolerance of not only polygyny, underage wedlock but also adult sexual assault in the 1st degree to be allowed proves the hidden agenda and unlawful reasoning(s) of an covert sect run amuck in our Nation.

    I say, “Show them the door, the one made of iron bars with a cell box lock welded onto it”!

  391. Well said, cajIM. There is no way this sect’s illegal behavior can be tolerated.

  392. caj: Anon E Mouse when this news about ‘Child Brides’ was first breaking into the news do you recall WeeWillie’s denial that he even knew it existed,

    ……………………………….

    I recall seeing FLDS women on TV making the same denials. But, for some strange reason, they feel they owe more loyalty to Warren Jeffs than they do to God, who commanded that we not bear false witness.

  393. I don’t know whats taking so long on the sentencing part? any ideas?

  394. Any idea’s whats taking so long?

  395. The Holy War aspect to this case is not to be made against the State attacking the FLDS Church but rather a misguided Prophet and his Leadership that has lead an attack upon Texas bigamy laws, age of consent decrees for marriage and sexual assault in the 1st & 2nd degree as being somehow unlawful and a violation of their Constitutional rights. The dictations clearly reveal that this collision was planned, orchestrated by the leadership and priesthood members were selected to violate the laws in defiance of existing statutes. Now they howl about actions taken by LE and elected officials to uphold their sworn oaths to defend Texas, Constitution and Law & Order.

    FLDS Priesthood Meeting & Conference, April 13, 2002
    Sam Barlow’s report to the Priesthood attendees,”We are now legislated purposely [in UT/AZ] to bring us into collision with the judiciary and particularly to make Uncle Rulon [Jeffs] collide with the judiciary. So we are talking about criminal things. And when you deal in criminal you have to be careful because there’s some ramifications to it”. So the FLDS leadership & Priesthood not only knew they were headed for a run-in with the law they,also, sought out legal advice and ignored LE warnings and chose to move forward into a confrontation. The Texas, Colorado and South Dakota ‘Lands of Refuge’ were purchased and behind covert facilities ‘criminal things’ were conducted and enacted.

    Sam Barlow in his report states further into his report,”We ourselves, you my Brethren and I, came to this earth after an agreement with death and hell was entered into. The covenant with death an agreement with hell has entered into the 1890 by the corporate church[FLDS]” he further states,”Many of us were held in reserve–came to the earth at this time and we are born to this conflict. We cannot shirk it, leave it or turn aside for even a moment – without a element of cowardess growing in our souls”. This fanatical pledge to see themselves through on a projected ‘conflict’ is quite ominous and a conscious choice and intention of the priesthood members. make no mistake about it but this FLDS Church has engaged themselves on some misguided belief that they are on a mission to do ‘criminal things’ and were ‘born to this conflict’.

  396. OH How PIOUS Flds make themselves out to be,, anyone else ready to PUKE!!

  397. Fundamentally Law Defying Sociopaths.

  398. New Update 4:06

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/16/keate-trial-punishment-phase-for-flds-member/

  399. Nichols later showed letters, also seen during the verdict phase of the trial,
    from Keate to the FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs, that complained the victim acted
    “silly” and that Keate had received letters daily from her, at his orders, about
    how she was doing and how much she loved him.
    *************
    Silly? How was she supposed to act, she was a child herself!!!

  400. Most 14yr old girls act “silly”, most aren’t married off to men 57yrs old either!!

  401. Read the gosangelo.com update.
    At least the jurors heard how he committed his underage daughters into marriages. Wish Oprah would read about this trial.

  402. True C-M just shows what LIARS they all are!!!

  403. Not to defend Keate, but I’ll bet a bunch of these idiots when told to marry some kiddie bride probably had a WTF moment in their heads.

    Sometimes I wonder whether these guys are perverts or just religious idiots.

    I suppose it doesn’t matter much because if your religion says you need to knock up a 14 year old and you act on that then I guess you deserve whatever consequences occur.

  404. “Keate also asked the “beloved bishop,” as he called Warren Jeffs, about how to be intimate with his wives.”

    Groan.

    Keate also asked Warren if it was proper to have sex with his wives who could no longer bear children.

    He can now consult his “beloved bishop” for tips on how to survive in prison.

    Same as it ever was…

  405. Kinda like “Pimpin for God” huh Ron?

  406. Makes me wonder what happens to the older wives.
    Are they delegated to do menial chores, send to that one place in Colorado? To live with older children? Discarded like an old shoe.

  407. I talked to my husband about that very thing last night, Ron. His thoughts were interesting (at least to me). His youngest daughter lived with us from the time she was 14 on. She is really beautiful, and even at that age, she was very pretty. But she looked to me unfinished and coltish. Her bones a little too long and out of proportion. I was stunned by the number of people, even men who were our friends and our age, who had difficulty breathing and thinking when she was in the room. It seems bizarre to me, cause I find men my age much more attractive than even the prettiest 20 year old. But then, I guess at my age, I’m more wired to consider the pleasant passage of time spent together than I am thinking about how cute the babies would be.

    Anyway, my husband said that what is sexually attractive is a complex issue in the brain and can be influenced by lots of factors. If the young lady is considered a status symbol that might be attractive in and of it self. It might be the concept that you can train or mold them into being what you want, so control might be an issue. It might be their innocence (and lack of experience making them less critical). It could be that they remind the men of their own youth and it is a way of being young vicariously. He also said that men are influenced by what other men describe as being attractive – and I think research has backed up that what is fashionable in female looks at a particular time will be noted by the men as being appealing. Also, I think some psychological research has shown that people can be ‘imprinted’ by early sexual influences – so that a particular cologne or music or clothing can cause a sexual response.

    Interesting.

  408. but this FLDS Church has engaged themselves on some misguided belief that they are on a mission to do ‘criminal things’ and were ‘born to this conflict’.
    ………………………………….

    They’re on a mission from God?

    Sorry, I couldn’t help myself:

  409. Miele, my kudos on your acronym : Fundamentally Law Defying Sociopaths [FLDS] never own up to anything, answer them nothing and scream “Railroad” when convicted. Didn’t they see that there was no way more bad than good could have possibly come out of this, ‘Freedom of Religion’ doesn’t define to be do what ever in the hell you feel like and claim it as worship or carry on with the exact same behaviors that resulted in Utah and Arizona convictions but expect a different outcome because now we’re in Texas?

  410. unless leroy was sherking his duties to procreate, m rose barlow wasn’t a virgin when she married keate.

  411. This week’s Eldorado Success just landed on my cyber-doorstep.

    It has letters to Santa in it and this one caught my eye.

    Dear Santa,

    I tried to be good, but I’ve been confused about what that means.

    Please send me some warm socks and a good defense attorney.

    I will put out fresh milk from the dairy and homemade bread for you and your reindeer when you come to our house on the ranch.

    Love,

    Merril Leroy Jessop

    p.s. My friend Allen would also like to have some warm socks. He would write to you himself, but they won’t let him have sharp objects yet.

    p.p.s. Whatever you do, please do NOT send us any underage brides.

  412. PT,

    I wonder if LeRoy wrote letters to his little brother to find out how to be intimate with his wives?

  413. cajim- they have lived this way for years because they were “allowed” to live this way….. until Texas. All these years they knew they were breaking the law. All these years of picking and choosing words from their book to “EXCUSE” their law-breaking lifestyle.

    But do you know what is worse than that? The states of Utah and Arizona gave them all the room to continue. Some of the victims we are reading about today…wouldn’t be victims had Utah and Arizona did what they were suppose to do.

    Those certain lawyers, politicians,judges and LE should be hanging their heads imo. Shame on them as well.

  414. TexasTwist- 🙂

  415. Alin- my opinion of you just skyrocketed. That is the funniest thing I’ve read in forever. 😀

  416. Family law expert John Sampson took the witness stand again to give his opinion regarding the enhancement to the penal code about sexual assault of a child, which says that sexual assault of a child is a first degree felony if the offender was prohibited from marrying or purporting to marry the victim.

    Sampson said that in his opinion, Keate falls under the enhancement.
    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/16/keate-trial-punishment-phase-for-flds-member/

  417. From the Success:

    Keate’s letters to Warren begin with “My Dear Beloved Prophet Uncle Warren.”

    Gag me.

    How terribly embarrassing for a grown man.

  418. Alin, I agree with FLDS Texas.

    I was laughing so hard I was crying. I guess the FLDS should have gotten permission from the State (express or implied) before purporting to marry (legal or otherwise) underage girls….

  419. I think more men wrote that same letter to santa.

  420. Walton I completely agree with your assessment that Utah and Arizona are accomplices in this series of Texas sexual assault cases. Especially considering the light sentencing given FLDS priests in 2006 for the same charge and a shockingly tolerant view of the felony aspects. Now the two states that spawn this traveling covert sect see that their tolerance and lack of responsibility has caused millions of dollars in Texas taxpayers expense for the hatchlings migrating from Arizona and Utah to Texas, Colorado and South Dakota, etc. Actually, this problem has spread far enough to become a Federal Task Force issue and the sponsorship States are Utah and Arizona. Sadly, there are even more groups that have been allowed to grow to similar sizes but they are yet to spread across neighboring States and other States.

  421. Hey you guys is Brooke in Texas?

  422. Cajim some of those same groups you are talking about started in Utah.
    And their victims voices have gone unheard as well.

    I think it was Reid that spoke of a Task Force to investigate more into these issues.. But I’ve yet to read anything stating there will be one. I think Utah said they could handle it all on their own. Right. wink wink

  423. UT and AZ’s complacency has definatly fed this monster. But behind the complacency is pressure from the ‘mainstream’ Mormon church. The Mormons completely believe in everything the FLDS do, and are probably donating to the FLDS legal fund.

  424. NO, brooke isn’t in Texas, she is getting all her information from a guy with a public news radio station in Marfa texas Walton

  425. I think reads hearings and call for a bill to fund a Task Force is awaiting a Public and Press outcry which will likely develop as the gamut of convictions mounts and Warren S. Jeffs faces his Federal flight charges in Utah, Arizona by then should have tagged him with another accomplice conviction(s).

  426. The reason I asked about Brooke being in Texas is that on her updates someone asked her if she was ready for major “frisk” action on Monday.

    Frisk action to me would be LE at the doors of a courthouse. (Says a lot about my life doesn’t it? or lack there of)

    Just wondering.

  427. I wonder if there was a lot of words and then other words between Carolyn and Betty.

    It can’t be easy sitting on a jury trying to make sense of all this.

    We’ve had time to adjust and we still have a hard time trying to figure it all out.

  428. Jury sent home for the day per Brooke.

  429. Is the sentencing hearing still going on?

  430. Thanks walton, cause neither the El Dorado success or SA news has mentioned it yet

  431. i can tell you that you do have to go through metal detectors and they search purses and such, but there was no frisking. the security is the same as they use at the tom green county courthouse in san angelo.

  432. Yeah, I just checked the Eldorado, the SA and even checked that radio station Brooke talked about. Nothing yet.

    Well heck ProudTexan what the heck fun is there in checking purses? j/k

  433. hey according to Brookes entry they were sent home 3 hours ago? How could that be?

  434. http://conchovalleyhomepage.com/ and these guys didn’t report anything all day?

    Something weird is going on.

  435. i think the jury was sent home around 5:30 or so CST

  436. they made me take my camera out and go put it back in my car. i hadn’t even thought about it being in there, i’d been to a local football game the night before.

  437. Got it now. http://myeldorado.net/

  438. I don’t know if you guys know this or not but I have this thing where I am always asking questions.

    I have been posting over at the InSessions board and have been there 5 almost 6 years with the same nic. Wasn’t easy. But the moderator there, her name is Coldwater. Anyway for the first couple of years she kept telling me I ask too many questions. That I should just let some thing be…
    But I have to ask…..

    Isn’t it a bit late in the season for football? Don’t you folks have a hockey season?

    🙂

  439. Nope–Walton–some of our high school teams are still playing..should be the state finals this weekend..

    Not much hockey around here…of course…the Dallas Stars are in Dallas…

  440. this was during raymond’s trial and i think it was the last junior high game of the season, hence taking the camera to get pictures.

    hockey – no, and this weekend are the state championship games in football.

  441. High school sports. 🙂 Energy, excitement,competition and fun.

    Tis a good thing.

  442. IF memory serves…Texas + football = HEAVEN! At least that’s what my friends Dad always told me…. He was from Canyon, Tx.

  443. Our high school in town has ONE final game, and if they win, they will win state champs. First time in 15 yrs!!

  444. Walton, nothing wrong with asking LOTS of questions. But I bet you spent alot of your time, turning blue waiting for answers, lol 🙂

  445. mc1199:

    I was being interviewed for a job once, trying to get back to Texas from Tennessee. the decision maker asked why I wanted to come back to Texas and I told him, “Because no one can make a decent Margarita here and unlike Texas they don’t understand that football is a real religion and flirting is just a sport”.

  446. Oh, yeah, I got the job. G-d is good.

  447. woo hoo boots!!!

    walton – ask away with your questions.

  448. deputydog- Actually Coldwater and another poster named Senora helped me a lot when I first started posting, Senora kept pushing me to find answers and Coldwater kept me in line so to speak. She’d shake the finger at me and I’d settle down for a bit but when she wasn’t looking I’d come back with more. They all have been good to me.
    I remember when I first started posting about this story. The thread would get locked down, moved or closed completely. I’d wait a couple days and come back with the same stuff but worded differently. lol Lots of scrapping going on per se. I wouldn’t give up though. I think I talked to my self for almost a year until Warren got arrested and things started becoming more “legal” noted.
    Questions now? ProudTexan I remember telling my friend Juliekan that some things are better kept a mystery. Keeps me guessing. I wouldn’t read the last chapter in Jon Kraukers book for two weeks because I knew it was ending and wanted to know more.

    And here we are today. Speaking of reading. I just read the Eldorado Success. A very good article in there and some interesting pieces elsewhere in the paper. Police blog once again caught my attention. That and there is a sale ad that makes me want to do some shopping.

  449. What was interesting on the police blotter?

  450. Betty,
    What you said really rings true with me.

    You said:
    “He also said that men are influenced by what other men describe as being attractive – and I think research has backed up that what is fashionable in female looks at a particular time will be noted by the men as being appealing”

    Well, if you look at photos of Short Creek from the 1953 raid, you will see women in dresses where the hem length is mid-knee or mid-calf.

    They were modest dresses (NO PANTS FOR WOMEN) but they certainly weren’t wearing dresses to their ankles. They were dressed in a style similar to mainstream society.

    Then, the styles for the FLDS got much more conservative, yet the ladies still wore prints and florals and bright colors.

    Take a look at photos of Carolyn Jessop (from 15-odd years ago) and she is stylishly dressed, yet still modest. Many photos show lavish lace collars/necklines.

    Compare these old photos to present day, where the style seems to lack individuality.

    There seems to be only one basic pattern from which the FLDS dresses are made today. They may have slight modifications of a “faux vest” or “darts” or perhaps smocking, but they are pretty much “cookie-cut” from one simple and basic pattern.

    But, they retain their “individuality” by being able to have the dress made in blue vs green vs pink, etc.

    So, my point is that I agree with your summation that somewhere along the line, the FLDS priesthood started preaching to the choir that this latest “FLDS fashion trend” was HOT.

  451. Hey there – we have over 220,000 hits.
    quite an accomplishment.
    Good night.

  452. So Ron,
    The men are going to plead the “Devil made me do it” defense?

  453. Compare these old photos to present day, where the style seems to lack individuality.

    There seems to be only one basic pattern from which the FLDS dresses are made today. They may have slight modifications of a “faux vest” or “darts” or perhaps smocking, but they are pretty much “cookie-cut” from one simple and basic pattern.

    But, they retain their “individuality” by being able to have the dress made in blue vs green vs pink, et.

    ………………………………..

    That is too bad they are not allowed to wear prints or (horrors!) the color red any more. I heard that seeing how high they can get that “poof” in their hairstyles is one way they can still show their individuality. And also, like women everywhere, they are interested in cosmetics and face creams. The small, nice things in life that every woman deserves to have.

  454. ProudTexan- Concerning the Police blotter it was Dec.9th info about a child at the Ranch. There was one last week as well.

    I am also wondering if the entry on Dec.8th wasn’t about Barbara.

    Did you see that good looking fellow in the middle of the page that just graduated? 🙂 I wish him well. May his ink pens always be filled with ink.

  455. anony @ 10:45, that defense might be next. it’s pretty obvious that they aren’t going to say “the prophet made me do it”

  456. walton, you might be right about the dec 8 call.

  457. HAHAHAHA, Ali-oop, OF course their paychecks come OUT of you pocket!! Who the hell do you think pays LE, and JUDGES, and Lawmakers??? YOU DO< I DO, every taxpayer does.
    Ignorant TWIT!
    ===================================
    The hell? I already said that.

  458. Why don’t you and the other apologists come right out and admit the real reason you are pissed has nothing to do with the rights of women and children: you’re pissed because our society won’t give you the go-ahead to have sex with children.
    ======================================
    Nope rights of women and children. I can’t speak for anyone else but I’m not attracted to anyone less then 30.

  459. Alin, I agree with FLDS Texas.

    I was laughing so hard I was crying. I guess the FLDS should have gotten permission from the State (express or implied) before purporting to marry (legal or otherwise) underage girls….
    =========================================================
    Believe it or not but I agree as well.

  460. “Purporting to marry’ is one of the aspects that raises a 2nd degree sexual assault charge to a 1st degree charge. Also, the assault aspect in sexual contact in one form is to ‘knowingly cause physical harm’ which is pregnancy results from the assault.

    Of course polygyny in any form is illegal in all 50 States in the Union and has never been held to be legal but that points out a basic fact and not this trials evidence.

  461. I think the current fashion among FLDS women is designed (?) to make them seem interchangeable. It’s basically a uniform, that denies them individuality of either body type or personal expression. The body type it looks best on is very thin, medium tall and small boned with narrow shoulders. It is very unflattering if the woman is chubby or large in the upper body.

    And it’s worse than a burka in some ways. The burka or other forms of excessive modesty in Islamic countries, you wear only in public, and in the privacy of your home, you might be dressed in rhinestone encrusted short shorts. Part of the attraction in those modes of dress is that the men know how their sisters and cousins dress at home, so any women seen out in public is a big mystery with a wrapping over it. They can imagine what is under it all.

    But in the FLDS, the uniform is on everywhere, all the time. It’s about control. Now whether or not that control is sexy for the men, or for Warren or has no direct relationship to sex, I don’t know and it makes me a little sick to think about it.

    What I meant about sexual attractiveness is more physical characteristics. If you look at images of women from any time period art, you can find out what they thought was attractive. The Japanese samurai women whose faces look like blank, placid moons. The medieval women who are mostly portrayed as being fairly young (16-20), thin and possibly pregnant. Persian miniatures where the women have large, almond shaped eyes and curvy bodies. Renaissance women who were voluptuous and sometimes (like Reuben) down right fat with flirtatious half smiles. Tudor and Elizabethan women who looked stiff, thin and expressionless with pretty faces and folded hands. (but in those corsets, who could breathe anyway?) And so on into our time period. Depression and WWII women in movies and pin ups were a bit older, sophisticated, worldly women with hour glass figures and pin curled hair. Look at the difference between Farrah Faucet compared with Sophia Loren or Marilyn Monroe. For awhile, the trophy wife had a big bust, but then it became more important to be blond and dangerously thin. So I think there could be a ‘fashion’ among men in the FLDS for the look of a very young girl. Even some of the women who are 20 look like they are 16.

  462. My thought is that the dresses are all designed to make them look not women – similar to the attraction to very young girls, no boobs, etc….. So speaking completely from a hot air perspective I presume that Warren is gay and can’t get it up with women who are “women”

  463. I’ve noticed that the current FLDS style of clothing for females also appears to be a uniform for all age groups.

    This photo here is a good example:
    http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/07/27/magazine/20080727_FLDS_SLIDESHOW_index.html

    You have women wearing the exact same dress (in different colors) from as young as age 1 to as old as 52. The same with the hair style (as soon as a young girl’s hair is long enough).

  464. If I had never seen the movie “The Stepford Wives,” the prairie dresses wouldn’t creep me out as much as they do.

  465. As for modesty – that’s in the eye of the beholder.

    The first time I saw images from the YFZ raid, it looked quite indecent to me because I thought they were all running around in their nighties. It must have been a combination of the cut + the colors.

  466. As I gathered the Keate Jury still hasnt gotten through the bad acts? Hope to have a decision by today.

    I dont know if Brooke can hold her breath any longer, no articles, no love, she dont write.

    Waiting for big daddy to be famous? errrr infamous? Or just afraid to report bad news?

    I think I saw icicles on the edges of the Plural life blaog.

  467. I guess after getting used to their hairstyles and dress it looks alright. Lenora Jeffs on 5 of 16 would look pretty typical with just a slight change of hair and maybe blouse and jeans.

  468. This photo here is a good example:
    http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/07/27/magazine/20080727_FLDS_SLIDESHOW_index.html

    ……………………………

    The athletic shoes w/black knee socks seem so odd with a dress, but whatever works.

    The boys are all dressed alike too, but at least they get to wear jeans.

  469. I’m not sure what’s up with Brooke Adams. I’m guessing she’s on vacation for the holidays.

  470. Stamp: I dont know if Brooke can hold her breath any longer, no articles, no love, she dont write.

    Waiting for big daddy to be famous? errrr infamous? Or just afraid to report bad news?

    I think I saw icicles on the edges of the Plural life blaog.

    …………………………..

    Yeah, what’s up with that, other than it’s going to be lather, rinse, repeat 9 more times.

  471. But, Anon E Mouse, the MEN dress like business men in general. I’ve seen oxford cloth button down shirts with a cardigan, khaki pants and a regular jacket/coat – just like any lds man of the same age.

  472. well the women save loads of money not wearing makeup but I heard they keep the hair spray companies in business

  473. I guess after getting used to their hairstyles and dress it looks alright. Lenora Jeffs on 5 of 16 would look pretty typical with just a slight change of hair and maybe blouse and jeans.
    ———-
    I don’t think looking “typical” should be necessarily considered a good thing, but I still haven’t gotten used to the hairstyle (which seems to emphasize foreheads that are already large) or the puffed shoulders on the dresses (which make almost anyone look like a linebacker). Maybe that is their way of expressing ‘modesty’ through their clothing – I don’t know.

    Betty, further to what you said about the body type that this dress style looks good on – pretty much what you’re describing is the body of a very young, thin girl (i.e. very little ‘up top’, small-boned, narrow shoulders, etc.)

  474. She’s not on vacation – she was noted as a contributor to the Susan Powell story which is kinda big in Sltrib right now – there was a 7 minute story on it on the TODAY show this am, I watched the feed online.

    Yeah that Matt Lauer dude said “Utah” I almost choked.

    But what I find odd is that after years of cheerfully posting fluffy articles or otherwise on the FLDS this rather serious news is settling in and she has only given two tweets and a poll.

    The poll was 72% “State has a strong case down the line”…………….

    Rather depressing to those who claimed the games they play with young girls wasnt true or wasnt bad.

    Those “Bad Acts” are sobering. Maybe she will overcome her hangover.

  475. Well for sure their dresses have plenty of room for being pregnant. Years ago Flds worse flower prints, and colorful dresses. Bright color, but narcissitic warren wanted clones who all looked the same.

  476. DD

    Yeah, those women need to be keepin sweet when Warren tells them their ENTIRE WARDROBE is hereby obsolete!

    Get crackin on that sewing machine!

    OBTW another dead place, the FLDS store still has the website up but they no longer do business.

  477. Really? Guess they will try to use it as a tax write off?

  478. Seriously, IF i was an FLDS member, who the leadership kept hounding for money , I’d tell them to bite the dust!!
    Flds have already spent over 1 million dollars since 2008 on attorneys, and frivolus motions their attorneys have filed.

  479. DD

    I think that was fiscal 2008, and this year, with Goldie and these trials ramping up, the UEP deal, I would say its double in 2009.

    Not saying those attorneys have been paid just sayin the bills are in the mail.

  480. Not to mention, this has been going on for some time. Warren Jeffs said in his May 5 2004 dictations:

    “My main message to Uncle Sam was first: I don’t want the lawyers to have anything to do with Rl7 in Texas, where they will bring a compromise to that mission; and secondly Uncle Sam needs to stop using the lawyers because the expense is so great – only use them where they are needed so we can use the moneys for the places of refuge. We owe over a hundred thousand dollars right now to lawyers.”

  481. Sorry if I’m posting duplicates; not seeming to go through with a link in the comment. K.Dee just posted a couple of audio updates from Eldorado, where the Keate trial sentencing phase is in recess. Mouse over my name for the link.

    (Admin, if previous comments held in moderation, please delete duplicates. Thanks!)

  482. 11:15 a.m. Thursday, December 17, 2009

    Utah psychologist testifies during penalty phase of Keate trial
    Dr. Larry Beall, a Utah psychologist, was put on the stand by prosecutor Eric Nichols to testify about knowledge of the FLDS culture. The defense is wanting him to reveal the names of people inside the FLDS community that he interviewed. So far he has not done so.
    http://www.myeldorado.net/index.html

  483. Thanks Connie,, I actually laughed when she was talking about Randy Wilson the attorney for keate, bringing Light beams and how fast they move? LOL When questioning Dr. Beall

  484. By the way Randy Wilson knows better,, a doctor and client are privilaged information

  485. Texas Connie thanks for sharing. This is way cool.

    I just don’t understand why they won’t allow someone inside with recording devices or cameras.

  486. I don’t know how all this stuff works but I am grateful for all the new technology of today. And surely to those that know how to use it all.

    Way to go Boots!!

  487. 12:00 noon Thursday, December 17, 2009

    Utah man vouches for Keate’s character
    Kelly Roestenberg of Sandy, Utah was called by the defense team to testify as a character witness for Allan Keate. Roestenberg noted that he knew Keate for 28 years in his capacity as a machine tool sales and service technician. Roestenberg said he was a member of the mainline LDS church and that he had never met any of Keate’s wives but knew Keate to be an upstanding citizen. He said he had no problem with Keate’s practice of polygamy, although he didn’t participate in the practice.

    Court http://www.myeldorado.net/was recessed for lunch. Trial to resume at 1 p.m.

  488. LOL,,, so is this guy for real?

  489. Wonder if it’s typical for all people in Utah and LDS to feel that way about Polygamy with little girls?

  490. The technology is really easy these days. Boots can phone in a report directly to the Tumblr blog and it posts automatically. Tumblr has a lot of great features for mobile blogging. Drop dead simple. I like Word Press for blogs with lots of text content and comments, but use Tumblr for other stuff. You can have comments on Tumblr; I just have them turned off on the News Link because we wouldn’t have time to monitor/reply.

  491. Probably people all over the US don’t really care about polygamy. As for polygamy with young women below the legal age of consent? As a witness, he theoretically wasn’t around for the trial so doesn’t know what Allen Keate was convicted on.

  492. No recording devices or pictures is two-fold because many of the charged felonies involved female children at the time the ‘Child Brides’ were wed and the inside security and lay-out of the court is better protected if fewer persons outside of the Court are uninformed. WeeWillie had a big Hildale meeting of Priesthood members earlier this week, don’t know why a mere spokesperson should warrant such focus in Hildale. I guess the pressures financial, legal and civic values must be rising with all the failures, mounting costs and lack of effective control. No cost end in sight, more evidence coming forward at each trial and no prophet/leadership that’s in effective crisis control mode.

  493. Does anyone know if young girl Allan Keate spiritually married is in the courtroom?

    I would think if BillM can yap about 1/2 the things on his site and get by with it that a camera in the courtroom would be the decent thing to do. They just wouldn’t have to film her.

    Willie can keep himself busy parking cars.

  494. Where did Willie have his meetings? In Hilldale?

  495. Roestenberg said that Keate was an “outstanding citizen”.

    I would think that an “outstanding citizen” would be one that didn’t break the law and even better one that would report knowing someone who did.

    Nope, I am scratching him off my list as a credible witness. jmo

  496. Alinusara
    Then the Guy who is testifying for Keate, is deaf dumb and blind!!

  497. “Probably people all over the US don’t really care about polygamy. As for polygamy with young women below the legal age of consent? As a witness, he theoretically wasn’t around for the trial so doesn’t know what Allen Keate was convicted on.”

    I wouldn’t have a problem with polygamy, if the women involved in it were given a decent, mainstream education and full adults when/IF they chose to participate in it. Even in the closed society of the FLDS many girls were on record saying that they didn’t want to practice polygyny — enough that Warren felt it necessary to “educate” them about having wishes and desires of their own. It isn’t “consensual” until all involved have an equal opportunity to choose NOT to consent.

  498. Interesting info about religious dress — Brigham Young tried to design a “uniform” for the women back in the day. The majority flat out refused to wear the hideous things and it kind of died out. 😆

  499. I agree with you Walton — how can you call a man you’ve only had business dealings with an “outstanding citizen”? For all this guy knows the man went home each night, had sex with his cows, beat his children and kicked the cat. Talk about damned with faint praise!

  500. Exactly Rebeckah. Allan Keate selling tools isn’t the issue. ( Well I guess maybe it is)

    I’ll never ever understand why they allow “work reference” come into play in hearings like this.

  501. Well the witness owns a Metalworking Corp in West Jordan Utah, and one in Nevada. So you tell me, is the guy more interested in MONEY or Integrity?

  502. Its not like the idiot has never heard of FLDS or the happenings that have gone on for years, the convictions of other FLDS members. In his testimony, he said he DIDN”T care if he was a polygamist,,, so that means he doesn’t give a rats ass that little girls were assaulted as long he made MONEY!

  503. Ill tell you what the priesthood meeting was about! It was about finding SOMEONE outside Flds who would be a witness for Allen Keate, ie Kelly Roestenberg, and why him? Because FLDS do lots of business with him, and if he didn’t Testify of Keate, they bluntly told him, NO MORE BUSINESS!!

  504. Why on Earth would you bring a character witness from Sandy, Utah that can vouch for over 25+years of sterling citizenry before a Texan jury that has had it’s community of Eldorado and County of Schleicher invaded by the FLDS Church and then not find one local Texan that can stand up for Allen Keate. Talk about waving a red cape in front of the local bull, pretty stupid strategy. IMHO

  505. Well CaJim, they had Two citizens Raymond had done work for in Christoval who were character witnesses for him and it didn’t do any good, he was still convicted.
    So, they got somoene whom Keate had supposedly worked for, to come all the way to Texas to testify for him. And I didnt see his name on the Defense witness list before either

  506. wow. Then this is funny actually. Willie and the Gang think they can snowball those in Texas? What a desperate move imo.

    Or the very least a move that has been effective in other parts of the country. Very telling indeed.

    Wasn’t there a work reference witness in Raymond Jessops trial as well? They said what a great guy Raymond was and what a caring father he was?

  507. The state rested its case after Beall. The defense brought in Kelly Roestenburg, who is president of a metalworking corporation and had business with Keate as a machinist.

    “In the course of getting to know Allan, were you familiar with his character as truthful, honest and law-abiding?” Jones asked.

    Roestenburg said that he was, and that he had gone fishing and had lunch with Keate.

    He said he had millions of dollars worth of business and that he never had to make a contract with Keate; he had only to shake his hand.
    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/17/keate-trial-state-rests-its-case-in-punishment/

    Get it NOW!

  508. Honest and law abiding, except for the fact he had sex with a little girl.

  509. And gave his even younger daughters to Warren for sex. And lives in polygamy, which is also illegal. And drove the girls across state lines. Other than that….he’s just a regular guy. Family man just like the rest of us. NOT.

    I am also very annoyed at the idea that he would not be guilty if polygamy were legal. That’s assuming a whole heck of a lot. I doubt seriously that they would marry any or all of their wives legally. More and more it seems that they don’t bother marrying any of them legally. And if the man would marry off his daughter at 14, what’s to say that he would not have taken a 14 year old wife? Then there’s the assumption that the girl was really willing and would have been convincing to a clerk of court when she went to get a license? If the girl was causing him trouble in ‘getting close” who’s to say that she would really have affixed her signature to a license in front of witnesses who were not FLDS?

    Legalizing their unions is the LAST thing these guys want. That would give the women equity, and it’s obvious that they don’t think that the state has the right to regulate their behavior in any way.

  510. “…a letter allegedly from Keate to the FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs which said the victim “is quite silly at times” and that her silliness affected other children in his household.”

    For Pete’s sake.

    That is because she was a child herself.

    And the character witness had been fishing with Keate.

    Well alrighty, then. Let’s make him citizen of the year.

    What is wrong with some people?

  511. My normal vocabulary is quite “colorful.”

    It’s all I can do right now to contain it.

    I hope this stuff is as aggravating to the jury as it is to me.

  512. He said he had millions of dollars worth of business and that he never had to make a contract with Keate; he had only to shake his hand.

    Honest and law abiding, except for the fact he had sex with a little girl.

    That’s sort of the weird paradox that is these guys. It will be interesting to see what sentence the jury comes up with in this case.

  513. This storyline with Roestenburg doesn’t add up to me. Why would you need a handshake agreement with a machinist in your employ? Sounds like Keate must have done piecemeal work out of his own shop that was ‘hand-shake’ contracted with Keate? Then the questions shouldn’t have been about his multiple wives but rather if he was consistently the low bidder on subcontract work to third-party suppliers? Then ask West Jordan/Sandy competitors how Keate keeps consistently underbidding the competition. Past history is any indicator it’s done by under-aged child workers, no unemployment payments and faulty records keeping for tax assessments all resulting in fines.

  514. Update from the Success.

    Testimony from San Angelo psychologist…said he found Keate to have “no mental defects.”

    I’m not saying a word.

  515. “Honest and law abiding, except for the fact he had sex with a little girl.”

    And gave away three of his daughters to be “wives.”

    And transported underage girls across state lines.

    And harbored a federal fugitive.

    What a great guy.

  516. no mental defects… other than an abiding interest in sex with teenagers…

  517. My reading of it is that Keates was a service tech and salesman of machine tools, not an employee of Rostenberg. This would be similar to an office manager appearing as a character witness for the copier repairman and salesperson.

  518. There isn’t ONE man In Flds who is honest or law biding! They break the law coming and going! Utah, has FAILED miserably in this matter. And Im not sure where they dug up this idiot!

  519. Anonymous, The guy said he’d know Keate for 28yrs, and when he had a contract with keate, it was with a handshake, not a written contract.
    That tells me, he is STUPID, or he is lying!

  520. No mental defects…other than…and an immature dependence on his Dear Beloved Prophet Uncle Warren.

    “Dear Unca Warren. Can I sleep with my wives and if so, how?

    Please advise how to deal with my child bride because she is acting…

    like a child.”

    I want to raise my bet in Bluesman’s poll.

  521. It tells me they’re using cash to avoid taxes.

  522. When questioned by the prosecution Wright said he had not asked Keate about his theology. He said he thought Keate would teach his children to follow the teachings of his church.

    El Dorado Success

    Okay so the defense gets a psychologist Jarvis Wright from San Angelo to testify for Keate, and the prosecution ask Jarvis the above question, and the psychologist give that answer!!!
    The teachings of FLDS is polygamy, bigamy, and marrying underage girls. GOD!!! what another idiot!

  523. Forgive me for playing devil’s advocate here, DD, but I kind of have to:

    “Well the witness owns a Metalworking Corp in West Jordan Utah, and one in Nevada. So you tell me, is the guy more interested in MONEY or Integrity?”

    And either/or between money and integrity is a false argument. Many, many, MANY people are good businessmen or even just weatlhy, and still people of good integrity.

    “In his testimony, he said he DIDN”T care if he was a polygamist,,, so that means he doesn’t give a rats ass that little girls were assaulted as long he made MONEY!”

    Polygamy is illegal but it does not AUTOMATICALLY mean that little girls are being assaulted. Just because the gentleman said he doesn’t care about polygamy it doesn’t follow that he’s okay with young girls being sexually assaulted. Now, since he’s testifying as a character witness for Keate there’s a reasonable inference that he doesn’t care about the sexual assault of this young girl, but I did feel the need to point out your logical flaws. Sorry.

  524. If he’s from West Jordan, Utah, maybe he IS a polygamist. Shocker, I know, but he could be in some other group or an independant.

  525. Rebeckah I think you missed the elephant standing in the middle of the room. How can a character witness speak credibly to a Jury quorum and announce a entire aspect of the case, i.e. doesn’t matter to him yet he speaks in his behalf. Seems to me that this witness comes off looking weak in his civic values to condone a known felony as unimportant? Does he care anything about prostitution, pornography or Mann Act violations?
    I would have a problem with a character witness that dismisses any felony law as unimportant to me yet I have complete and credible opinion of this convicted sexual assault felon, so go easy on him for my sake. Then he can testify at the bigamy trial that he doesn’t care about the Texas Legislature enhancement of 2nd degree to 1st degree sexual assault charges for a purported polygamy marriage and he still thinks Allen Keate is of a high character, even if he is a convicted sexual predator. Huh?

  526. Well the witness said, he is LDS. So if his ward bishop hears he said, Keate’s practicing polygamy is okay, the guy will be out on his butt.
    Rebecca, I understand what your saying, however. Flds are well known in Utah, and it’s no secret even 10yrs ago, they were marrying underage girls. Now, the witness, may NOT have cared, and decided Keate was a good guy, but KEATE Is NOT a good guy, he partook in the nooky, himself.

  527. Thats exactly my point CaJim,, this has all been in the newspapers all over the country, the indictments, and what they were for, and who did what. And the character witness, KNOWS!!

  528. jury’s got the case

  529. http://myeldorado.net/

    Its in the hands of the jury now.

    I have faith that the jurors will do a fine job.

  530. Is keate facing 99 yrs? If so, I’m guessing he’ll get 50.

  531. he’s facing 5 – life

  532. I predict he will receive 10 – 15 yrs.

  533. 50 + years

    No nice wrist slapping like last time.

  534. You know if Warren was in the mix and it suited his needs he would have banned him from the 6 wives, children, Church and community.

    He’s done this with many families. There is no Prophet to reassign. These women finally have a chance… if they move away.

  535. I vote 50yr since he was 50 at the time

  536. The defense pulled those character witnesses out of the hat.
    Pretty weak, the testimony.
    Bet that Ed Smart would have testified that Mitchell was a good worker, if he would not have abducted his daughter.
    Both witnesses did not help the defense. There was no real meat in it.
    The psychologist did not seem to have a grab on the FLDS. That
    First, foremost the prophet gets revelations from God.
    They HAVE to be followed by the [priesthood to be good priesthood men, irregardless if it means breaking US laws, in order to be obedient, only than can they bring their family to Heaven.
    Than the women have to be obedient to the priesthood men to be worthy to join them in Heaven and the children have to be obedient to the appointed priesthood man to reach Heaven.
    All is based on fear.
    Not that other religions do not use the fear factor, they do, but not to such extreme.
    This is total control of one person. Don’t think God works that way.

  537. I cant believe how weak the defense witnesses were.

    OH boy I can smell the toast burning from here!

    DING

  538. Took me a minute Stamp but I got it. lol

  539. Why would Allan Keate be selling tools for this guy? What happened to Wendell’s set up in Nevada? The Newera?

    I noticed that one guys name on some different committees in Utah and some building projects.

    Hmmm

  540. That website is so cheesy it looks completely fake. The worst hack job ever seen.

    I bet that guy isnt LDS but in the plyg network.

    JMHO

  541. Website of that fool from Sandy Utah who flew out to give Keate strokes.

    http://www.newwestmachine.com/NWMap.html

  542. Looks like a site he made himself,, kinda of like other LLC’s of FLDS

  543. I think that some of the companies that the flds do business with are fully aware of the ‘shady’ ethics involved. But, since they are all making money..they prefer to look the other way. I wouldn’t surprised me, in the least, if a little “extra” appeared in the payment, after the bid was finalized.

  544. Geez, the character assassins are out tonight. Some guy comes in and just tells his experiences with Keate and everybody piles on.

    I believe his testimony won’t get a whole lot of weight since he said he didn’t have a problem with what Keate was doing.

  545. Ron, it just so happens the guy sell big metalmolding equipment, and guess what his territory is????
    Utah, Idaho, and Nevada

    But he lives in West Jordan Utah.

  546. I never said the guy was a criminal, I said, he knows all about what goes on in Flds, He’s lived around it for years!

  547. Ron

    HA HA Like they dont go for Dan Fischer, et al?

    Just think of what they will say if someone turns states evidence.

    SATANIC DEVIL IN THE FLESH! GAHHHHHH!

  548. And its not like they havent been harrassing the prosecution witnesses, esp Pic in AZ.

    Online and in court. I think this guy was given a relative pass in court, but he was pretty weak stuff.

  549. Randy Wilson should have called in Orrin Hatch to testify on behalf of Allan. Orrin knows some VERY fine polygamists in Hildale.

    Maybe Orrin was too busy fighting for the BCS.

  550. SAD news.

    Tapestry Against Polygamy has “retired”. They have not been very active lately, but to learn that they won’t be around in the future is a real shame.

    TAP started the movement to get help for women who are victims of polygamy.

    This is from the story:

    “According to Erickson, Texas has the right approach. Utah does not.

    She’s accused Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff of backing away from polygamy investigations and prosecutions, an assertion that drew a sharp rebuttal from Shurtleff spokesman, Paul Murphy.

    He told 2News, no one has done more than Shurtleff to fight abuses in polygamous communities, helping “thousands” of people, and eliciting a pledge from the major polygamy groups to no longer marry girls younger than 18.”

    Read the story and watch to video here:
    http://connect2utah.com/content/fulltext/?cid=67581

  551. OH man, I hate to here that!!! Tapestry was the first sight I found about polygamy… I wish each one of those involved with Tapestry well, and peace…
    Mark Shurtleff i wish,, He loses his frigggin job! He is a sorry excuse for an AG.

  552. I agree on the Shurtleff issue…ditto for Orrin Hatch.

  553. Shurtleff may have gotten promises from Flds not to marry underage girls, but Flds did it anyway, they just moved to Texas to do it!! So much for any friggin promise!

  554. They were still doing it right under his nose, and in nevada and colorado, along with texas

  555. “…eliciting a pledge from the major polygamy groups to no longer marry girls younger than 18.”

    Well, now, that makes it all okay so let’s all go home now.

    If I had to include that on a list of my accomplishments as the state’s top law enforcement official, I believe I would just leave it off the list.

    Shurtleff’s a mixed bag in my view. He’s done some good, but he’s not been vigorous in a vital area and that is in pursuing prosecutions against sexual offenders of underage brides when investigations have turned up evidence.

  556. Well, seems Shurtleff didn’t say it,, but Asst. Paul Murphy did, whats he wanting Brownie points?

  557. deputydog1 said this on December 17, 2009 at 2:09 PM

    The link you gave to the San Angelo Standard-Times took me to the article from this morning, not today’s testimony. Do you have another link?
    Thanks

  558. Ron, I concur that the character witness wouldn’t pass the smell test with an average juror. Coming from Sandy, Utah he might be highly tolerant of polygamy but he said it doesn’t matter to him to a group of jurors that have had their whole Schleicher County turned upside down by this sect from Utah, so I think his view could have hit upon some opposite opinions. Commenting upon a 25+year history that is based upon a Utah history must have highlighted that this problem has been imported from elsewhere, kind of a dumb point to bring forward to a local jury.

  559. http://tripleap.tumblr.com/

    This was posted according to k.dees time around 6 just not sure whose time zone

  560. Is there a formula that is suggested to use when doing the sentencing? Such as 20 years for the assault and 5 years for every crime thereafter?

  561. Goodwin began with the issue of the girl with whom Keate fathered a child. “It wasn’t even her first marriage,” Goodwin said.

    According to documents the state seized during the historic April 2008 raid, the victim had been previously “sealed” — committed to another man.
    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/17/keate-trial-state-rests-its-case-in-punishment/

    Goodwin also highlighted that the age difference was 38 years.

    She also noted that according to documents, the victim and Keate had gone before the prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Warren Jeffs, when the victim was unwilling to “get close” to Keate and the victim was told to hold hands with Keate on the way home and to have a talk.

    “She offered up just a little bit of resistance, and that was squashed,” Goodwin said.

  562. Goodwin said Keate had also betrayed the trust of his own daughters in having given them away in “spiritual” or “celestial” marriage, two of them at age 15 and one at age 14, to older men. The youngest of the three went to Jeffs.

    The prosecution showed a bit of a document attributed to Jeffs which read, “I informed them about their daughter … belonging to me. They went home and brought her right back.”

  563. “She offered up just a little bit of resistance, and that was squashed”

    “Victimless crime,” my aunt Fanny.

  564. Can you imagine the impact that would have on the rest of the kids?

  565. Well, the duty of parents is to protect their children, these parents DON’T!! Why aren’t mother’s who went along with this crap being indicted!!

  566. From the Standard Times:

    Lead defense attorney Randy Wilson framed the issue as one of religious liberties.

    Wilson referred to letters the jury had seen that had Keate asking for help in being a good husband to his various wives.

    “Does this sound like a pedophile or does it sound like a man devoted to God?” he asked.

    Wilson had the jury envision a scenario of the government prosecuting religious leaders for giving alcohol to minors by giving them communion wine.

    He made a comparison of civil rights activists to those persecuted for practicing their religion.

    “Each of us would be horrified,” Wilson said. “We are absolutely dealing with a government that is trying to violate freedom of religion.”

    Wilson said Keate would do well with probation, adding that it is not an easy system to be on.

    Lead prosecutor Eric Nichols followed Wilson and mocked his story about Communion wine.

    “When we’re talking about drinking alcohol and sexual abuse of a child, does that person get it?” Nichols said. “How is it not more insidious that she was groomed that her sexual abuse was right, that her sexual abuse was necessary for her to reach the highest level of heaven?”

    I can’t belive Wilson said what he said.

  567. Oh, ProudTexan, I can believe Randy Wilson said that! He will say whatever is nessacary to win his cases!

  568. Does he ever win? He’s already lost this one.

  569. He lost the last two criminal high profile cases he had to. My problem is simple when it comes to attorneys. I know that people who do bad things need representation, but Im glad im not an attorney, NO WAY i could defend a criminal.

  570. “Does this sound like a pedophile or does it sound like a man devoted to God?”

    Well, he was asking what to do because his child bride didn’t want sex, so I’m thinking somewhere along the line they lost track of basic signs that there was not consent. So, book em, Dano.

  571. I have a question. Does this child that Keate “married” still live at YFZ? Does his daughter, that if I am not wrong, he gave to Lehi Barlow, still live with Lehi Barlow? If Keate were to get probation (he won’t) would he just go home to all his wives and this child?

  572. 33 years

  573. juliekan – i don’t know if the victim in this case is on the YFZ or not. It was my understanding that one of the bail conditions was that the men couldn’t be around their victim, even if the victim was now an adult.

    this girl’s parents were both on the ranch when it was raided, so she might be living with them at the ranch. as for keate’s daughters, the one married to warren obviously isn’t living with him, but i don’t know about the ones married to keith and lehi.

  574. No slap on the wrist for Keate — 33 years. K.Dee was in the courtroom and just called me. Welcome to Texas, FLDS.

  575. 33 years! Terrific news !
    Another blow struck for the rights of women !

  576. I am mentally drained. I can’t imagine how lawyers and Judges can sit thru this day after day.

    My hat is off to those that fight so very hard to protect us!

    See you guys Fri.

  577. 33 years…good enough. Thank you Texas.

  578. Greg Abbott and his assistant AG’s, her Honor Judge Walther, Texas LEOs and the individual jurors, all had hard jobs and did them with expertise and dedication.

    I wonder if 33 years is symbolic? Could the jury pick anything from probation to 99?

    Since I was awake anyway, I just want to check and see if our favorite ‘scribe’ of blaugh fame was truly on the be-back-board or just hidin out. It seems over there in Arizonia they’re having paroxysmal spasms over someone named ‘Melonas.’ LOL.

  579. I think that some of the companies that the flds do business with are fully aware of the ’shady’ ethics involved. But, since they are all making money..they prefer to look the other way. I wouldn’t surprised me, in the least, if a little “extra” appeared in the payment, after the bid was finalized.

    ……………………

    I wonder if they’re all paying the taxes they should be paying.

  580. Goodwin said Keate had also betrayed the trust of his own daughters in having given them away in “spiritual” or “celestial” marriage, two of them at age 15 and one at age 14, to older men. The youngest of the three went to Jeffs.

    The prosecution showed a bit of a document attributed to Jeffs which read, “I informed them about their daughter … belonging to me. They went home and brought her right back.”

    ………………………………….

    It’s like a horror movie. Hard to believe this happens in modern day America.

  581. He lost the last two criminal high profile cases he had to. My problem is simple when it comes to attorneys. I know that people who do bad things need representation, but Im glad im not an attorney, NO WAY i could defend a criminal.
    ………………….

    I have a friend who is a criminal defense attorney. He makes no bones about the fact he’s in it for the money. These aren’t contingency cases where the attorney only gets paid if the client wins. Defense attorneys get paid win or lose.

  582. Defense attorneys lose most of their cases.

    A win is a good plea bargain or a lesser sentence than expected from a jury.

    Keate was a dog of a case so a loss on the verdict was expected. I wouldn’t call the sentence a win for Wilson, either. A win in this case would have been anything that would have possibly put Keate back on the street within ten years or probation.

    Difficult, considering documented resistance from the victim and the plight of the victim’s daughters.

    “…belonging to me.”

    “…brought her right back.”

    Their master’s voice.

    “Fetch.”

    Arf.

    Unbelievable.

    Thank you jurors and AG’s office.

    I wonder what the prosecutors have in their bag of tricks for Emack?

  583. Make that the defendant’s daughters.

    More coffee.

  584. I can’t belive Wilson said what he said.

    Honestly, what else could he say? The evidence even seems to indicate that Keate didn’t do what he did because he really wanted a 14 year old bride.

    He appears to have done it mainly out of submission to religious authority.

  585. Yeah, that struck me too… sounded like he was exasperated by having a child as a bride… can you imagine what fun that must be? It is hard enough to live with a 14 year old as an adult parent of said child without mixing in weird ideas about that child having pretend authority as a spouse…

  586. That’s more difficult for me to comprehend.

    Could he not see when it was happening that perhaps, just maybe, Warren Jeffs was full of carpola?

  587. Well, the jury finally came up with a sentence for Allen Keate – 33 years huh?

    I guess its the steepest sentence yet of any fundamental LDS Polygamist – besides Lafferties and LEBarons – that we’ve seen in like forever, even steeper than Warrens.

    He got two consecutive 5-life terms, and while some think its more life than 10 years, I dont know what’ll happen considering he has 3 more trials to go including the one in Texas for the same thing as Keate.

    How many life sentences can Warren serve?

    Willie gave an interview, its available on youtube or myeldorado as well as Eric Nichols.

    Funny how Willie still doesnt get it, that this little girl isnt a victim, having two husbands and two children by 16.

    She was treated as property – and that is mentioned in letters – as were the other girls – how can they not be victims?

    Absolutely NO remorse, no accepting responsibility, just in your face cry baby wwwaaaaaa! And if you listen he seems to be taking back what he said about following the law – because he doesn’t think they broke any laws!

    Willie you make me sick! I hope the future jurors saw that rant and decide to send you a stronger message next time.

    Why to you think the states of UT, AZ, TX, and the Federal government are on your ass? Because you arent as cute as the Amish?

    No because your old men are CHILD MOLESTERS! And your prophet is the worst one!

    Damn, grow a clue, DUDE!

  588. Honestly, what else could he say? The evidence even seems to indicate that Keate didn’t do what he did because he really wanted a 14 year old bride.

    He appears to have done it mainly out of submission to religious authority.

    ———————————

    But he should have known it was against the law, otherwise it wouldn’t have been such a secret. Breaking the law in the name of religion is still breaking the law.

  589. Eric Nichols

    “Justice was Again Served”

  590. i wonder if raymond paid his fine.

  591. Willie is pretty annoying. The children being torn from their mothers arms schtick worked before people realized that their mothers and fathers were auctioning them off for celestial prophet points.

    So much for the we’re just some poor discriminated against religious minority. What was it again? Fundamentally Law Defying Sociopaths?

    Kudos to whoever came up with that line….

  592. Willie is not the sharpest crayon in the box and he’s full of himself.

    It’s the men like Keate I don’t get. By all accounts he is (make that was) competant and trusted in his work. Other accounts by people who know him say he is genial and personable.

    So he throws away a minimum of 16.5 years of his productive life away because he is one of the “faithful.”

    Several years back, Michael Emack is said to have told an FLDS friend/acquaintance that he wouldn’t wish the “mission” at YFZ on anyone.

    These are not stupid men with limited cognizant capabilities.

    So why couldn’t/can’t they see that no good comes of following Warren Jeffs down his path of destruction?

  593. I would think that being asked to deliver a 14-year-old child for “marriage” to Warren might be a first clue.

    Being directed to marry an underage girl oneself would be the second.

    In the end, no one, not even Warren Jeffs, put a gun to Keate’s head and made him have sex with the girl. He made that choice and he has to live with the consquences.

  594. Willie

    “There ARE no Victims” rant

    Gee I want to go point by point on his lies – but he repeated another favorite too = “Thousands of victims are created by this prosecution”

    HUH Willie! How did you grow that one?

  595. And ya gotta love his “Flyboy” outfit for court. Is that gonna be standard wear in court now, sport vests with extra pockets for bullets?

  596. From Nichols statement to the press:

    “so-called” FLDS prophet — LOL!

    Keate’s daughter who was married to Warren Jeffs at 14 was married on the day before her father received his “calling” to the “mission” at YFZ.

  597. Twist

    I get the sense that Keate is probably having a WTF moment right now.

    At the risk of letting my anti-religion streak showing, if people will let religious belief make them fly airplanes into buildings then having sex with 14 year olds is not that big of a jump.

  598. Willie lied and said he never knew of any underage marriages. Now we have some proof to show him behind the barn.

    Oh, but now Willie says thay arent victims,

    Well guess what Willie. Grow a DAMN brain. Grow up and get a flippin GRIP.

    Yeah, you guys will be in Texas a long time – Texas prisons!

    So much for “That” mission effort!

    Still Yarnin for Zion, I see, and it isnt quite the Zion Warren sold you in that glossy brochure.

  599. Twist

    I get the sense that Keate is probably having a WTF moment right now.
    ========================================================
    Probably not. They all probably know they will more then likely get convicted. I would like to see the women testify but their probably is a strategic reason why they choose not to.

    The issue Ron is not that they has sex with 14 year olds but had sex outside the confines of a legal marriage.

  600. The issue Ron is not that they has sex with 14 year olds but had sex outside the confines of a legal marriage.
    ———-
    Nope, the issue is definitely that they’re molesting young girls.

  601. Nope, the issue is definitely that they’re molesting young girls.

    Absolutely! Alin is just doing whatever mental gymnastics he can muster to try to justify it.

  602. I get the same sense, Ron.

    And not another peep out of me right now about stupid people with limited cognizant capabilities.

    Not a peep.

    Nope, not one.

    Mmmmmph……

  603. Willie was wound up tighter than the rubber band around my morning newspaper.

    He scares me. He never scared me before, he would just make me mad but today he scares me.

    He believes what he is saying is true and he just doesn’t get it. He is either 1. Going to blow or 2. Do and say more stupid things to get everyone riled up.

    They should lock him up just because imo

    Did I say that the videos were great and that I love Texas? 🙂

  604. I am calling Greg Abbotts office today.

  605. If any of the remainder of the defendants (Warren Jeffs excluded) are having genuine remorse and recognition that they mucked up royally by keeping sweet and acquiesing to Warren, their best defense may be to take the stand, speak honestly even if it means denouncing Warren Jeffs and throw themselves upon the mercy of the jury.

    They may still do some prison time, but would be more likely to get a lower sentence than by their attorney insulting the jury’s intelligence by slipping in the turkey baster defense in closing arguments.

    Not likely to happen I suspect. Their families who will remain behind are leverage and there’s always the question about who is paying for the attorneys.

    Warren Jeffs is a wicked little man.

    I look forward to his trial in Texas. Even if it takes Arizona and Utah force feeding him chicken fried steak with cream gravy, they need to do what they can to ensure that he will eventually be sitting at the defendant’s table in a Texas courtroom.

    Until then, Merril Jessop’s trial will have to serve as a proxy.

  606. For a minute there I thought I saw Willes head about to explode.

    Good thing he ran off!

    PS he mentioned that Greg Abbot gave the FLDS “lumps of coal” in their stockings – wonder what the FLDS give their child brides and the little babies?

    OH NOTHING

    They dont celebrate Christmas!

  607. Somebody needs to drop a lump of coal on Willie’s head, LOL
    maybe he will grow a brain, hahah 🙂

  608. The issue Ron is not that they has sex with 14 year olds but had sex outside the confines of a legal marriage.
    ———-
    Nope, the issue is definitely that they’re molesting young girls.
    ===============================================================
    Not really. Without a legal marriage there would have been no trial.

  609. I hate uneditible typos. With a legal marriage there would have been no trial. I’m not trying to justify anything, just clarifying the law.

  610. I just talked to someone from Abbotts office. I said it like I saw it and I know the guy was smiling when we ended or visit.

    🙂

  611. Not really. Without a legal marriage there would have been no trial.
    ————-
    Nope, the issue is that they’re molesting young girls.

    Speaking of which, next up:

    Michael Emack, Jan. 25, 2010, sexual abuse of a child.

  612. After closing arguments two of the young FLDS boys followed me to my vehicle laughing, and taking pictures with there phones of me, and the signs reading “POLYGAMY IS ABUSE”.

    I was in the middle of leaving a message for Flora and rolled down my window, smiled at them and said, “Flora says “Hey”, then pulled away and took a picture of the license plate on their vehicle.

    I won’t describe the hand motion that went with my greeting;)

  613. Boots, thanks for the audio clips! And Im sure everyone who stayed for the sentencing last night was tired.

  614. Al-in stop being a troll. No judge in Texas is going to allow a 14 year old to marry a 50+ religious nutcase.

    The unfortunate part is that there are other religious nutcases who will auction their 16 year old daughters for polygamist prophet points.

  615. Good job, Boots.
    Flora must be smiling. Finally, the truth comes out.

  616. “Rebecca, I understand what your saying, however. Flds are well known in Utah, and it’s no secret even 10yrs ago, they were marrying underage girls. Now, the witness, may NOT have cared, and decided Keate was a good guy, but KEATE Is NOT a good guy, he partook in the nooky, himself.”

    You have a point DD. Not being from the area I can’t really know what’s common knowlege and what isn’t.

    Cajim, no, I wasn’t missing the white elephant in the room — I understand and agree with what you’re saying — I was just pointing out logic errors in DD’s argument. I kind of feel that if people make sweeping, inaccurate, and inflammatory statements that they will be dismissed by people who are more interested in facts than rhetoric. Let Willie make a fool of himself and let those on the side of women and children’s rights and law and order stick with the unarguable facts.

    DD, that is not intended, however, to be taken as instructions as to how you must express yourself. It’s just my opinion on what’s effective, not an order. 😉

  617. Boots can you tell us who was in the courtroom?
    Did Betty and Carolyn visit?
    What was the look on Allan Keates face when they told him 33 years?

    Did he say anything?
    Was some of his family there?

    Was Michael Emack there?

    I want to know as much as you can remember.

    Did you see Randy and Kathy? Sheriff Doran? How about Deputy George?

    Was the courtroom filled?

  618. OK – Is Keate more evil or more stupid?

    My vote – more stupid. I’m in the Stamp group of stupid sheeple blindly following an idiot to slaughter.

  619. Twist

    I get the sense that Keate is probably having a WTF moment right now.
    ========================================================
    Probably not. They all probably know they will more then likely get convicted. I would like to see the women testify but their probably is a strategic reason why they choose not to.

    —————————————
    Al – they aren’t going to put any FLDS person in a position where they have to testify under oath. But then again, Willie was under oath at the hearing he attended in Austin and lied throughout his entire testimony. Maybe I should call Darby and see if he’s going to charge Willie with lying under oath.

  620. Can someone tell Judge Conn and Matt Smith to just save their money. Send WSJ to Texas so we can show them how to deal with folks like him.

  621. I vote stupid.

    Wonder if you can still get to the celestial kingdom if you rot in prison.

  622. Hey Boots – did you take any pictures of the boys taking pictures of you? Turn about is fair play you know.

  623. I’m with Walton – what was the reaction when the sentence was announced?

  624. Ron – the AG’s office has already requested that they be allowed to try him first and AZ said no way.

  625. Well, Merril’s trial might very well be a precursor to WSJ’s trial over his abuse of Merril’s 12 year old daughter. I don’t think that’s going to play well for a jury. Wonder how much jail time pimping out your 12 year old daughter is worth.

  626. I just bet they did. Maybe they will use some of the videos and statements made lastnight as a training video and show Mark Shurtleff how it is done.

    lol

  627. ““She offered up just a little bit of resistance, and that was squashed”

    “Victimless crime,” my aunt Fanny.”

    You are so right. Do they have her children hostage or something? Why hasn’t this poor girl spoken out? Poor, poor child/woman.

  628. I agree, Stupidty! of the followers of this cult, cause thats what it is. Maybe , hopefully some of the NOW memebers will wake up and leave this cult.

  629. Wilie throwing a tantrum in front of cameras, and acting like he does is infantile!

  630. Stupid gets my vote.

    Lots of that going around right now.

  631. Hey Boots – did you take any pictures of the boys taking pictures of you? Turn about is fair play you know.
    ================================================
    In most states you cannot take pictures of minors without parental permission.

  632. Maybe I should call Darby and see if he’s going to charge Willie with lying under oath.
    ==========================================
    That’s called perjury. He must not have committed it since he was never charged.

  633. Fries with that, Twist? Or mashed, with gravy?

  634. That’s called perjury. He must not have committed it since he was never charged.

    Damn, you really are a pathetic troll. Do you have any idea how many people commit perjury and then never get charged?

  635. See the problem with where is the victim argument is denying the process by which these charges were brought, namely the Grand Jury whereby the ‘Peace and Dignity’ of Texas is the plaintiff and Allen Eugene Keate is the defendant. Guess WeeWillie doen’t understand that the Attorney General Abbott is a duly elected official that can bring evidence before the Grand Jury and present enough evidence against anyone who violates the People of Texas laws.

    Sorry, WeeWillie no ‘victim’ is required by the Grand Jury, just enough evidence to indict and bring charges and a not it’s a HOAX.

    Sorry, WeeWillie you might not like the results but no HOAX has been even charged let alone proven. The Grand Jury indictments definitely seem to be getting results is that why you’re frothing at the mouth?

  636. In most states you cannot take pictures of minors without parental permission.
    ——-
    That’s a misconception. It’s almost always legal to take pictures of individuals if they’re in a public place. Posting the picturs might be a problem but Boots isn’t doing that.

  637. THANK YOU TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED IN HELPING BRING JUSTICE FOR CHILDREN

    PROSECUTORS

    WITNESSES

    STATE OF TEXAS

    THE JUDGE

    THE JURY

    THE SUPPORTERS OF JUSTICE

    AND OTHERS IN ATTENDANCE – OR UNABLE TO ATTEND –

    THANK YOU

  638. Oh really Alinusara? So Bill Medvecky puts up all kinds of pictures of children, did he get their permission? Or Judge Walther’s permission , or any of the pictures he has up on his site? NOOOOOOOO im sure he didn’t.

  639. Did he get permission to use other photographers pictures on his site? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  640. You can find the video of Willie lying in Texas, Al, it’s online. He’s always been allowed to do that, outside Texas. I think you can also find where he lied, pretended he’d hand delivered a letter to President Bush. This kind of stuff isn’t the same as his usual clownish pretenses we all laugh at when we’re not gritting our teeth because he makes our teeth itch.

  641. Damn, you really are a pathetic troll. Do you have any idea how many people commit perjury and then never get charged?
    ======================================================
    Thanks for the insult but yes you are correct. Quite a bit never get charged mostly because it’s hard to prove that a person knowingly committed a falsehood. There is a wide latitude for honest mistakes.

  642. “OK – Is Keate more evil or more stupid?

    My vote – more stupid. I’m in the Stamp group of stupid sheeple blindly following an idiot to slaughter.”

    I don’t know. She resisted him, didn’t want to have sex with him, and acted “silly” (i.e. like a teenage girl) and he got her pregnant anyway. That’s pretty d*mn evil in my book.

  643. #

    From Nichols statement to the press:

    “so-called” FLDS prophet — LOL!

    Keate’s daughter who was married to Warren Jeffs at 14 was married on the day before her father received his “calling” to the “mission” at YFZ.

    TexasTwist said this on December 18, 2009 at 8:03 AM

    Yeah – I didn’t see that in the newspaper accounts – only caught in the video…. definitely a “pimp” moment….Today you give me your youngest daughter (cause I only like them real young) and tomorrow you can go to the most holy place on earth which gets you to the most holy place in the after life….

  644. Rebeckah,

    Sure as heck, she probably would not have the support of her parents, “Bob” and Nancy, if she wanted (wants) to speak up.

    Keep sweet!

    No matter what.

  645. Well, Rebecca, I agree he’s a pervert,and rather stupid pervert at that. Amazing the victim was already married to someone else, and reassigned to Keate!

  646. Thanks for the insult but yes you are correct.

    The insult was well deserved. I’m loathing myself right now for feeding a troll.

    There is a wide latitude for honest mistakes.

    Like publicly saying he didn’t know of any underage marriages?

    He’s a liar and a supporter of pedophiles.

  647. Sorry Attila but Willie never claimed to have hand delivered a letter to George Bush. To state otherwise is a falsehood.

    “The 10-page letter was written and delivered on Saturday by FLDS member Willie Jessop to staff members at Bush’s ranch. The president and his family were at the ranch for daughter Jenna’s wedding to Henry Hager.

    “I was not there to make a political statement or to detract in any way from the wedding,” said Jessop. “I just wanted to deliver the letter. Staff members for the president took the letter, read it, and we talked about its contents. It was a cordial, sensitive meeting. They were great and said they would get back to me.””

  648. There is a wide latitude for honest mistakes.

    Like publicly saying he didn’t know of any underage marriages?

    He’s a liar and a supporter of pedophiles.
    ====================================================
    Once again you attribute something to him he never stated. He said he didn’t know of any underage pregnancies. Since Teresa Steed is the only one I’m aware of and at the time she probably wasn’t showing he could be correct.

  649. He said he didn’t know of any underage pregnancies.

    A blatant attempt at spin and distortion and certainly not an honest mistake.

    I’d also comment that you seem to have learned the same tactics.

  650. Alinusara, So IF willie didn’t know there were any underage marriages on the YFZ ranch, why even OPEN HIS BIG MOUTH and say there were NOT any???
    He talks to damn much and ends up with foot and mouth disease

  651. Look, Alinusara, none of us are stupid, we know exactly why Warren CHose Willie to be the so called “representative”. Flds are scared crapless of Willie, and they know what a thug he is, so Warren chose him once again, to be the Thug to keep members in line.

  652. Where is Teresa Steed? Her child? Her child’s father?

    Whose infant was that?

  653. Speaking of Willie Jessop and his lies, here’s a statement he made to Lisa Ling:

    When asked if a 12- or 14- or 15-year-old girl should be allowed to marry, Willie says no. “I don’t think any of them in that age group should be involved in a marriage, and I think that we’ve been very straight about that. I think the evidence has proved that actions speak louder than words and we haven’t been involved in that, and I think that that’s the part of this story that they haven’t disclosed, is we haven’t been involved in these and we won’t in the future.”
    http://www.oprah.com/slideshow/oprahshow/20090130_tows_polygamy/10

  654. Awesome Ellie!!!! thanks 🙂 see Alinusara, now you can quit talking out your ass!

  655. Oh, but ellie, that was just an “honest” mistake. 🙂

  656. “Awesome Ellie!!!! thanks see Alinusara, now you can quit talking out your ass!”

    Oh, I’m sure Al can pull plenty more excrement out of his bhind and pretend it’s something profound and valuable. Al doesn’t care about the truth anymore than his FLDS buddies do, all he cares about is the religious “right” to marry and knock up young teen girls. I’m sure he and Willie have good laughs together trying to come up with the next deceptive “spin” to take with their words.

  657. Please continue on Discussion #20 – we are over 600 posts on this thread!

    And dont miss the video of Nichols on the KEATE thread.

    Thanks,

    ADMIN

  658. Wasn’t showing?

    She was due in June 2008.

    Another “honest mistake.”

    Tends to happen when folks shut their mind to things like details.

    And facts.

    Too often resulting in assfacts.

    Be aware…there was another pregnant minor — Suzanne Johnson — also due in June 2008.

    And it is not illegal in Texas to take photographs of minors without parental permission.

    Idiot.

  659. Mashed with gravy, Atilla.

    Fries tend to get stuck in feeder tubes.

  660. In most states you cannot take pictures of minors without parental permission.
    ——————————–
    i doubt very seriously they were minors, probably in their early 20s if i was guessing. the flds aren’t going to bring their minor children to the courthouse.

  661. whoah this blog is great i love reading your articles.
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