Open Discussion #18

Continued from Open Discussion #17

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on November 30, 2009.

659 Responses to “Open Discussion #18”

  1. Al

    “As far as I know anyone unhappy can leave at any time. Leaving with children is a bit harder because both men and women has parental rights as well.”

    Hmmm how about when the father is living a felonious lifestyle? Oh, yeah, I know, Utah and AZ dont do much about the felonies, they pick and choose which laws to prosecute.

    A little different in Texas though, huh?

    OOPSY

  2. Stamp,

    That’s why I’ve been advocating for an amnesty protection law here in Texas.

    If you grant amnesty from prosecution to any parent who leaves the practice of polygamy behind, and automatically award them custody of their children, [unless there is some compelling reason to believe they would be unsafe] you give them everything in the world.

    These women aren’t ALLOWED to protect their children. These women have been trained NOT to protect their children.

    Any woman with strength of mind enough to want out, because her instincts *for good* finally will out, and she wants to protect her children, shouldn’t she be protected?

    Isn’t that what the law is supposed to be for, to make the world safe and provide us all with equal protection under the law? Even the weakest among us?

    The men they leave behind are practicing felons. They cannot be considered for custody of children anyway.

    What do you suppose might happen if word leaked into the YFZ that Texas was doing CRAZY things, like passing laws saying if they leave their husbands, they automatically get to keep all their minor children….and Texas is promising to help them protect the children?

    For them, it would be like an alternate universe…boom, but it would take them a while to really believe it, too.

    Polygamy is a recognized human rights abuse. Couldn’t Texas make its way clear to offer amnesty to cooperative victims, who really just want to be survivors?

    Aren’t we allowed to use our laws to protect the weak?

    My adopted home town here in the Hill Country is the final resting place of more Texas Rangers than any other city in Texas. The population is still around seven hundred people.

    Many of those Rangers died protecting women and children.

    Too bad so many of our Rangers today feel they were prevented from protecting the YFZ children. They did their job and got spit on for it in the media. They deserved better for their effort, which was professional, noble and completely bloodless.

  3. I notice that the apologists said nothing against Uncle Merrill when he refused to answer questions and outright lied about his income at child support hearing where that is relevant. Those same people now are outraged the Carolyn Jessop does not want to offer up her tax filings and that is evidence of some mysterious wrongdoing even though her income is NOT relevant to a rape case.

    Hypocrites.

  4. Betty, I think you’re right about us talking apples and oranges. I didn’t even consider the points you made because I don’t think the way the people in your examples do, so it never occured to me. I think that’s part of “doing homeschooling right”, though, the scheduling and being accountable to do work in a timely manner. And my stepmother, who has been an educator for many years, did work with my daughter’s school on curriculum so that she wouldn’t be behind when she got back to class. 😉

  5. His attachment to Naomi would preclude full narcissism (I think).
    ———–
    I find his relationship to Naomi Jessop Jeffs to be quite fascinating and I’m surprised there hasn’t been more interest in it.

    Naomie is the daughter of Ruth and Merril Jessop. Carolyn Jessop talks about both of them in Escape. Ruth sounds very unhappy and possibly mentally unbalanced. Carolyn mentions that Naomie is very beautiful.

    Naomie was first married to Warren’s father Rulon, at age 17. She was one of the two women (the other was another young wife of Rulon’s named Mary Fischer) who had the ‘testimony’ that Rulon’s mantle had passed to Warren.

    She claimed that Rulon had been ‘renewed’, just as he had prophesied, in the form of Warren: “Warren walked out into the hall and I looked upon him and I saw Father’s holy light shine on him. I felt the same feeling on Warren that I had felt on Father. . . . I bear witness that Warren Jeffs is the prophet.”

    Following this, Naomie acts as Warren’s “scribe” – something like a holy secretary. She alone witnesses his overnight heavenly sessions, which seem to involve a lot of praying, twisting and suffering on Warren’s part although what is actually happening is never very clear to me.

    When Warren had his crisis of conscience in prison, he spoke to Naomie and told her he was not the Prophet: “You’ll need to destroy all your dictations because they are not of God.” He further tells her: “The Lord does not speak to the key holder through a woman. So there is a lesson to be careful with.”

  6. I see his attachment to Naomi as a part of his mental illness. A case where the two of them together would do more harm than either seperately.

  7. Oh and Washington had a grading policy when my son was in elementary that was based on knowledge of subject matter regardless of work done or turned in. So if the student could pass the test they got a good grade. It didn’t do my son any favors in learning how to work on a schedule. I understand exactly what you mean about that!

  8. Rebeckah,

    It’s also possible that because I’ve talked to people who help out when home schooling goes wrong that the sample of information I have is skewed to the negative.

  9. The amount of oversight of home schooling varies from state to state and even from one school district to the next. What is required in my rural county is really minimal; you have to prove that you bought a certified curriculum but not that you actually used it. But two counties over, a friend was having monthly meetings with a representative of the school board to review progress and maintain their status.

  10. His attachment to Naomi would preclude full narcissism (I think).

    Doesn’t Narcissus always need Echo?

  11. Exactly, Ron. I think his relationship with Naomi is fascinating, but I don’t think it’s a sign of healthy affection but of mutual self interest.

  12. Doesn’t Narcissus always need Echo?
    ———
    Yes, exactly. I hope I’m not taking up too much space here but the dynamic between them is so fascinating to me.

    It’s illustrated in an episode from July 2004 when Warren and Naomie had a falling out, which started when Warren meets privately with Ruth and Merril Jessop:
    “She voiced that she wanted a release from Merril Jessop and recited supposed wrongs done, even years ago, by Barbara, her sister, Barbara Steed Jessop married to Uncle Merril, and she just couldn’t find happiness in Merril Jessop’s family.” Warren responded that “it would be her own destruction if she was separated from Uncle Merril.”

    When Naomi finds out about this and protests. Naomi “kept voicing her concerns about what her mother had said about wanting to leave her father, not caring if her father came around, and I saw Naomie was being greatly tested.”

    Later that day, Warren receives a revelation: “I came conscious and Naomie repeated my words that the Lord had me speak to her, that she had to be sent back to Short Creek without me…by tonight to stay at Isaac Jeffs’ house and to stay there until the Lord named that she could participate in this mission. And she wept and wept as she repeated these things to me.”

    Warren, too, is disturbed by the separation and at one point licks the ground as part of his covenant that he wants to atone for her. “It was the Lord that appointed Naomie to be my personal scribe and witness. She has been with me day and night for over a year, and much of the time before that after father’s passing, and I have acknowledged to the Lord many times, there is no woman on earth like that woman who can come into the presence of God and the Prophet of God day after day and witness the heavenly sessions of suffering as well as see the heavenly light and angels and heavenly beings. She has had dreams and visions, witnessed great things.”

    Naomie stays in close contact with Warren on her way to Short Creek: “In my calls to Joshua and Naomie, Naomie revealed to me that already twice the Lord has protected them and delivered them. Shortly after I finished talking to them this afternoon, the car in front of them suddenly stopped. They came so close to a fatal crash. At another gas station that they stopped at, her description was a very wicked man stopped and looked at her, while Joshua was in paying for the gas, took out his knife, staring at her, symbolically putting the knife to his own throat what he wanted to do to her.” Still later, Naomie reports to Warren: “the Lord gave her assurance and dreams and sweet whisperings to get close to me and she could yet be blessed.”

    Meanwhile, back at YFZ, Naomi’s absence creates a power vacuum: “Some of the ladies had written me letters. They had noticed Naomie was not there, yearning to know what they could do to help me.” And Warren quickly tries to find a replacement: “the only ladies that can stay with me in those heavenly sessions are those the Lord appoints, and the Lord had appointed Ida, Naomie’s young sister.”

    So Ida takes Naomie’s place in the heavenly sessions: “in Ida’s reports she said she witnessed greater suffering physically than she had ever witnessed in her life. She has been with me through some heavenly sessions, but they have generally been mild or after the severity is complete. I can see at times, through our experience with her Sunday, that she was in tears watching me go through what I was going through.”

    But ultimately, Ida proves to be a poor scribe: “I finally got ready for bed and retired by 1:30 a.m. in the morning, waking Ida up, telling her to be fervent and pray for me as I needed the Lord’s guidance and presence. And all through that early Monday morning, through the night Ida just slept.”

    Luckily, later that morning, “I knew the Lord had taken Naomie through a correction that she will not forget, and I asked the Lord could I use her still or was she rejected, because I knew I could not have anyone in my presence during the heavenly session that offended the Lord and I was assured of the Lord that she could be fully restored as she continued to repent.”

    It’s hard to believe but this all seems to take place in a week or less.

  13. Well thank “Heavenly Father” it was only a week. Any longer and Naomi would have been being saved from gang rapes by wandering motorcycle groups as she road her horse to the store, Ida would have been reduced to a deep depression from the “suffering” Warren went through during his “heavnly sessions” (or a coma, I’m not sure which), and Warren would have had a nervous breakdown. Maybe lack of Naomi is why he keeps trying to kill himself in prison.

  14. New York’s standards of accountability for home-schooling are strict. If every state had standards like ours, I’d have no objection to home-schooling:

    1. A written plan approved by the school district;
    2. A minimum of 900-990 hours of instruction per year, with written attendance records to prove it;
    3. The same curriculum as required for other students;
    4. Quarterly grade and attendance reports to the school district;
    5. Passing grades on the same achievement tests as used in schools, administered by the district;
    6. Termination of home-schooling if parents fail to meet these standards;
    7. Outside instruction must be in a building that meets the building code.

  15. I think those are very reasonable standards, Greetings.

  16. Sometimes psychopaths use the mentally ill as their acolytes (Brian Paul Mitchell and Wanda Barzee), and sometimes two psychopaths get together to wreak havoc, as with Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo in Ontario.

  17. My personal opinion counts for little, but Warren was having an affair with Naomi before rulon ever died. Shes a manipulator just like warren

  18. “Two Peas in a POD!”

  19. it’s interesting, since I have been reading the “dictations” that my view of Warren as a con man has changed to a guy who truly believes he is who he thinks he is (does that make sense?). I thought growing up around him, he was just putting on a show, and maybe he still is,even to himself

  20. naomi’s got to be on birth control of some sort because there’s no way she hasn’t had sex with warren.

  21. It’s a great story, Ellie; thanks for posting it.

    This is an incredibly significant passage: “[T]he Lord gave her assurance and dreams and sweet whisperings to get close to me and she could yet be blessed.”

    A complete role reversal: Warren is recording a prophetic word that God spoke to Naomie! Who else but Warren ever got a prophetic word straight from God in these dictations? Nobody I can remember.

    The amazing thing about this duo is how often Naomie recorded dictation from a sleeping Warren and repeated it to him when he awakened. That included this prophecy that she had to be sent back to Short Creek to repent.

    IMHO, the story about the man with the knife is a bald-face effort at manipulation by Naomie, but he doesn’t react to it (I wouldn’t expect him to). On the other hand, he was rapidly made aware of his need for her, so her whole “repent from afar” experience lasted about ten days.

    So which of them was in charge during this encounter? He exercised the power to send her away, but her position was strengthened by it. I have always leaned toward the explanation that they are a Karla Homolka-Paul Bernardo pair, and this doesn’t change that.

  22. And BTW, Naomie’s great ‘sin’ was worrying about her mother, whose story again points out that FLDS women have no choice in their marital arrangements: “After [Ruth] sat down, she voiced that she wanted a release from Merril Jessop and recited supposed wrongs done, even years ago, by Barbara, her sister, Barbara Steed Jessop married to Uncle Merril, and she just couldn’t find happiness in Merril Jessop’s family.”

    Ruth was given a ‘choice’, alright: submit, or repent from afar.

  23. ProudTexan: “Naomi’s got to be on birth control of some sort because there’s no way she hasn’t had sex with warren.”

    Carolyn’s book said that Rulon’s young wives were all on birth control for “endometriosis.”

    I agree with whoever said above that Naomi was having an affair w/ Warren before Rulon died.

  24. Well, Virginia is a religious exemption state. You can say that your religious beliefs over rule the State’s duty to educate your children. You do not even have to prove that your religious beliefs are in conflict with the education system. All you have to do is convince a small town school board that you are home schooling for religious reasons and then you legally don’t have to educate your children AT ALL. Scandalous. There are only 14 states left with similar laws.

  25. Yup, Naomi probably was very aware of “supposed wrongs” and witnessed some of them.

    I see that whole story as a power struggle which came out as a draw. Naomi failed to protect her mother, but Warren got a strong demonstration of his need for her.

  26. Boots

    I hope that comes to pass. It blows my mind that if a woman leaves a polygamist family, she cant take her children automatically.

    Any arguement by the abuser should be met with bigamy prosecution JMHO.

    That would stop that nonsense.

    ———————

    ellie,

    Thnks for the post, it does seem Warren was a little too full of himself, doesnt it?

    I wonder what lies he tells to himself now that he is in prison.

    I imagine the lies change daily.

  27. Warren licked the ground. HA HA HA

  28. So, that explains sinning against “a mother and a sister”. The wife of his father would be called mother, even if she was 17 and never had a child.

  29. I think the sin against the sister was Valerie Jeffs Mackert. As for the mother, take your pick. Ora Bernice Steed comes to mind.

  30. The odometer on this site rolled over again and I missed it.

    Do you realize that in nine months this blog has had 200,000 hits?

    Bravo, FLDS Texas, whoever you are!

  31. bravo indeed. you are doing a great service getting the word out about the abuse involved in this cult.

  32. Bravo, FLDS Texas, indeed.

    And great stuff, Ellie. I love reading everyone’s takes on Warren’s states of mind.

    The inner workings of Warren’s mind as recorded by his scribe fascinate me. My particular favorite entries are the ones where he repeatedly focuses on men who were once near the inner circle who committed the sin of “aspiring” and the detail in which he records the dreams related to the aspiring me.

    Not that Warren projects, much.

    oncebitten, I’m of the impression that Warren has almost completely deluded himself, but not totally. The realities of “I am a wicked man” and “I am not a prophet” managed to seep through before everyone including Warren tried to take it back.

    But it got through and out there and there it remains.

  33. “aspiring men”

    I loathe this keyboard.

  34. It’s not surprising that the stand-in scribe wasn’t up to Warren’s standards.

    She was all of 14 in July 2004 when those events occurred.

    Warren married her when she was 13.

    In Utah.

    Pardon my crassness, but I figure that within the terminology “heavenly sessions” and “heavenly comfort wife” are euphemisms for sexual activity.

    And there’s always “the gifts of Naomie.”

    Probably best to leave it at that.

  35. Congratulations FLDS Texas ! 200,000 hits ! Another milestone !

  36. Texas Twist, that was my take on it also. Saying “I long to be your heavenly comfort wife” is FLDS for “Hello, Sailor.”

    I still don’t understand the “gifts of Naomie”.

  37. Pardon my crassness, but I figure that within the terminology “heavenly sessions” and “heavenly comfort wife” are euphemisms for sexual activity.

    And there’s always “the gifts of Naomie.”

    Probably best to leave it at that.

    I agree on the terminology, but “gifts of Naomie” is one of the better ones.

    As for Ida Vilate, you are right, she was married at 13 to WSJ, part of his underage spree that included Ida’s nieces Brenda Lei and Loretta Jane.

  38. I think it’s better left not understanding. Put your mind in the red light district of Amsterdam or at least that’s where my mind is taken when I hear that phrase.

  39. Hmmm how about when the father is living a felonious lifestyle? Oh, yeah, I know, Utah and AZ dont do much about the felonies, they pick and choose which laws to prosecute.
    ===============================================
    Due to constitutional considerations polygamy in and of itself is not enough to lose custody. The only way to change that is to bring in a constitutional amendment.

  40. Alin, that didn’t even make sense. Juvenile courts don’t rule on constitutionality. Are you on the same planet as the rest of us?

  41. ” Put your mind in the red light district of Amsterdam or at least that’s where my mind is taken when I hear that phrase.”

    But are you frightened by the angels?

  42. Alin wrote: “Due to constitutional considerations polygamy in and of itself is not enough to lose custody. The only way to change that is to bring in a constitutional amendment.”

    • Arizona’s and Utah’s constitutions both forever bar polygamy;
    • Constitutional challenges to Utah’s polygamy law have failed in both state and federal courts;
    • Regulating marriage is a state prerogative, not a federal one;
    • Bigamy and polygamy are felonies in Utah and Arizona and appear likely to stay that way.

    Can it be any clearer? There is no constitutional protection for polygamy. Stamp is right and you are wrong.

  43. At age 28, Jaycee Dugard was also an adult woman. So in Alin’s world, since she could have walked away on her own accord, she should have been left in that filthy shack with her two children.
    ==================================================
    Nope. In my opinion her captor is guilty of kidnapping from the day she was taken until the day she turned 18 and must be punished for that. I have no sympathy for him because he stole Jaycee from her parents. I’ve always been pro family; I thought you all knew that by now.

  44. Once I get to a better computer GFNY, (this one is slower the hell), I’ll look it up.

  45. Translate – the perpetrator stole a possession from the father.

  46. Here is an obituary for Wilma Steed LeFevre that depicts how the modern-day practice of polygamy has split families apart and the diversity of one of these divided families.

    Wilma was the daughter of Wilford Woodruff Steed and Ellen Mitchell Steed.

    Warren Jeffs’ mother, Merilyn, is the daughter of Wilford Woodruff Steed and Zavenda.

    So, Wilma and Merilyn were half-sisters. Maybe someone should tell Merilyn that her sister Wilma died.

    Wilma accomplished a lot in her life; she graduated from college and had a career. I wonder if Merilyn graduated from college?

    Here is part of the obit about Wilma’s life and a link to the entire obit.

    CLEARFIELD/PANGUITCH – After a courageous battle with cancer, our beloved mother, grandmother and great-grandmother Wilma Steed LeFevre, 82, passed away 21 Nov. 2009. Her family was by her side.

    Wilma was born in Syracuse, Utah to Wilford Woodruff and Ellen Mitchell Steed. She was an active member of the LDS church where she served in many music and leadership positions. She graduated from Weber State University in 1972 with a Bachelors Degree in Sociology. She worked for JW Brewer Tire Company and Kent Smith Construction Company before becoming a real estate agent where she served in local and national offices.

    http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20091124/OBITUARIES/91124002/1023/Wilma-Steed-LeFevre

  47. Here is an obituary for Wilma Steed LeFevre that depicts how the modern-day practice of polygamy has split families apart and the diversity of one of these divided families.
    ————————————————
    CLEARFIELD/PANGUITCH – After a courageous battle with cancer, our beloved mother, grandmother and great-grandmother Wilma Steed LeFevre, 82, passed away 21 Nov. 2009. Her family was by her side.

    ?????????

  48. Translate – the perpetrator stole a possession from the father
    ===========================================
    Mother and father actually.

  49. So, the child itself does not matter?

  50. Children are not possessions. Gotcha.

  51. Al

    Hmmm how about when the father is living a felonious lifestyle? Oh, yeah, I know, Utah and AZ dont do much about the felonies, they pick and choose which laws to prosecute.
    ===============================================
    Due to constitutional considerations polygamy in and of itself is not enough to lose custody. The only way to change that is to bring in a constitutional amendment.

    ——————-

    If the bigamists were in prison where they belonged, then the custody hearings would go smoothly. If the husband wasnt in prison already, they could arrest him at the custody hearing.

    Doesnt take a rocket scientist to enforce the law!

  52. So, the child itself does not matter?
    ==============================================
    Exactly. If the child wishes to stay with her captor her wishes don’t matter. It’s why we have parents. Someone has to make decisions for the children. I thought I’ve been pretty consistant.

  53. It’s also why we have police, Alin, in case the parents give their child to an abuser. Like the woman in Georgia who sold her child for drugs or the women at YFZ or the Alamo complex who give away their children for their sexual abuse and even make them pretty dresses for the occasion. The child’s best interest is what matters and sometimes, sadly, parents do not do what is best for the child.

    Adults actually do harm to other adults, also. And I hate to break this to you, but it isn’t the victim’s fault for putting up with it but the perpetrator’s fault for causing the harm.

  54. If the bigamists were in prison where they belonged, then the custody hearings would go smoothly.
    ================================================
    If only the guy was arrested then the defendant could claim selective prosecution. If both the woman and the guy was arrested then not only does it harm the children but the woman would have no out for a potentially abusive marriage.
    ==================================================
    “In jurisprudence, selective prosecution is a procedural defense in which a defendant argues that they should not be held criminally liable for breaking the law, as the criminal justice system discriminated against them by choosing to prosecute. In a claim of selective prosecution, a defendant essentially argues that it is irrelevant whether they are guilty of violating a law, but that the fact of being prosecuted is based upon forbidden reasons. Such a claim might, for example, entail an argument that persons of different age, race, religion, or gender, were engaged in the same illegal actions for which the defendant is being tried and were not prosecuted, and that the defendant is only being prosecuted because of a bias. In the US, this defense is based upon the 14th Amendment, which requires that “nor shall any state deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.””

  55. It’s also why we have police, Alin, in case the parents give their child to an abuser. Like the woman in Georgia who sold her child for drugs or the women at YFZ or the Alamo complex who give away their children for their sexual abuse and even make them pretty dresses for the occasion. The child’s best interest is what matters and sometimes, sadly, parents do not do what is best for the child.
    =====================================================
    Again I agree. Not that I was terribly shook up about 16 year olds having sex but the law is the law and I agree with enforcing it. I was troubled about the way that Texas revictimized the victims and still am to this day. I am also troubled about the way that Texas violated the law in order to enforce it. Judge Wathers said there is nothing wrong with the warrant. Judge Conn may feel differently.

  56. Judge Conn should hang up his robe. jmo

  57. Judge Conn should hang up his robe. jmo
    ==============================================
    Why so? If the evidence obtained in Texas’s investigation was obtained legitimately Judge Conn will only affirm it and make it stronger. Texas authorities should be more then proud to have an outsider review it.

  58. Judge Conn should hang up his robe. jmo
    ——–
    I agree. He’s been far too lenient about Piccaretta’s antics

  59. http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy500.html

    “My attitude and perception has been that polygamy in Colorado City is something that is perfectly acceptable to the governmental agencies in this area and the only reason these cases have become involved in the criminal justice system are the assertions and allegations that some of the multiple or plural wives were underage when they had sex,” the judge said.

    Conn also said the case was not aimed at trying to “re-educate or brainwash these people and the church in Colorado City to get rid of their religious beliefs and give up the practice of polygamy.

    “What this case is about is to discourage people in that community or any other community from having sex with girls that are underage,” said the judge, adding he was aware of the deterrent effect a sentence could have.

    Conn said he believed Fischer was acting out of a “sincere religious belief,” but added he considered it “abominable” and “very hard to accept [that] someone can subscribe to a religion that allows them to have multiple wives at the same time.”

    Conn has sat in his chair too long. His hat is too tight. He should be working with Snow and Parker if he wants to continue to make excuses for those that break the law. jmo

  60. I see that whole story as a power struggle which came out as a draw. Naomi failed to protect her mother, but Warren got a strong demonstration of his need for her.
    ————
    I agree. I really feel for Ruth, especially if she is really is suffering from a mental disorder. The way that Warren and Merril just herd her around is sickening.

    Warren’s meeting with Ruth and Merril that I mentioned earlier took place on Friday night at 8PM, where Ruth asked to get out of the marriage and Warren tells her it will be her own destruction.

    Warren later says in the same (July 4) dictation: “I asked Merril Jessop Satuday moming how his wife Ruth was doing and it was a complete tum around, She was completely in support of him. She had repented and gone and done better.”

    But this doesn’t last for long. On July 13, 2004, Warren writes
    “I also sent Merril Jessop’s wife, Ruth Jessop, back to Short Creek for a time to humble herself, under Uncle Merril’s direction, because she still feels like she can reach God and the Prophet independent of her husband, and she needs to be taught that she must approach us through her husband, through oneness with her husband.”

  61. In my opinion her captor is guilty of kidnapping from the day she was taken until the day she turned 18 and must be punished for that.
    ———-
    Of course. Everyone knows there is no such thing as kidnapping an adult.

  62. Of course. Everyone knows there is no such thing as kidnapping an adult.
    ===========================================================
    If the adult wishes to go with the person then yes there is no such thing as kidnapping in that sort of case.

  63. It’s not surprising that the stand-in scribe wasn’t up to Warren’s standards. She was all of 14 in July 2004 when those events occurred.

    Warren married her when she was 13. In Utah.
    ———–
    OK I was NOT aware of this. I originally thought it was a bit funny that the stand-in scribe conked out during one of Warren’s sacred slumber parties. But this puts a whole different spin on it.

    Do you know if she is Ruth’s daughter as well (making her a full sister to Naomie)? It sounds like she was living at Short Creek, away from her mother and father, up until Warren had his falling out with Naomie.

    This is from the passage where Warren receives the revelation that Naomie has to repent in Short Creek:
    “[Naomie] had to be sent back to Short Creek without me and that I would have Joshua Jeffs drive Mother Merilyn and Ida to R17. Isaac would drive Naomie to meet Joshua, and then have Joshua drive Naomie all the way to Short Creek”

    Later in the same dictation, Warren says “I told Ida on tbe phone that when she arrived at R17, she should bring her things right to my room, where I could give her training.”

  64. If the adult wishes to go with the person then yes there is no such thing as kidnapping in that sort of case.
    ———
    I see. So in your mind, Jaycee wanted to be there from the day she turned 18 onward. Is that the same way that, in your mind, all the FLDS women want to be there?

  65. Hey there.
    I suggest that you take a look at Honey Dawn’s blog today.
    She is weighing in on an important topic – the lack of archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon.

  66. Who is Honey Dawn?

  67. Walton,
    Honey Dawn runs Almost Heaven Blog – there is a link to it on the blog roll on the right of the screen.

  68. Keeping Sweet,

    Do you know anything about a previously mentioned stolen manuscript that Joseph Smith might have based his “religion” on? It was mentioned earlier in this blog and very much peaked my interest. It made me think of Joseph Smith in a very L. Ron Hubbard kind of way. Except, of course, I think Hubbard did indeed write his own science fiction rather than steal it from someone else.

  69. Yes Boots, there was a stolen manuscript the Book of Mormon is based on.
    I will e mail you the details. There is also no archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon, nor is there DNA evidence which supports the BoM.

  70. Allegations of fabrication of the Book of Mormon – From Wikipedia

    Critics of the Book of Mormon claim that the book was fabricated by Smith and/or portions of it were plagarized from various works that were available to Smith, ranging from the King James Bible,The Wonders of Nature,View of the Hebrews,to an unpublished manuscript written by Solomon Spalding.

    For a few followers of the LDS movement, unresolved issues of the book’s historical authenticity and the lack of conclusive archaeological evidence have led them to adopt a compromise position that the Book of Mormon may be the creation of Smith, but that it was nevertheless created through divine inspiration.

  71. Ellie said this:

    Naomie acts as Warren’s “scribe” – something like a holy secretary.

    I got a great laugh from that!

    Thanks Ellie.

  72. Alinusara10 you’re really topping yourself today with asinine comments.

    Alinusara10 F U,
    Love Fred

  73. Fred,
    I think I love you.

  74. Alinusara10,

    The obit of Wilma Steed LeFevre was posted to show the difference between the lives of 2 sisters.

    One, Wilma, who was a daughter of Wilford Woodruff Steed graduated from college and had a professional career.

    Her sister by another of his wives, Merilyn, is the mother of Warren Jeffs. I highly doubt that Merilyn graduated from college and had a professional career.

    My point was about the diversity between these 2 women. I think that the choices in life offered to these 2 sisters were quite different.

    I think their lives contrasted greatly.

    If you had read the post, I don’t think you would have just copied the 1st line and then typed in a bunch of ??????????

    I would think that maybe you would have connected the dots regarding these 2 sisters with drastically different lives.

    Did you even get to the part of the post that said they were sisters?

    It seems to me that you rarely actually read things before you post a comment.

    Otherwise why the ???????

  75. “I also sent Merril Jessop’s wife, Ruth Jessop, back to Short Creek for a time to humble herself, under Uncle Merril’s direction, because she still feels like she can reach God and the Prophet independent of her husband, and she needs to be taught that she must approach us through her husband, through oneness with her husband.”

    The beatings will continue until morale improves. The idea that a woman cannot have an independent relationship with God brings me such an anger that I get an angry bile taste in my mouth. That makes me angrier than anything else they do or say. If I were in the presence of someone who said that to me in sincerity, I would be concerned that they would go to the hospital and I would go to jail.

  76. Betty said :

    “. The idea that a woman cannot have an independent relationship with God brings me such an anger that I get an angry bile taste in my mouth. ”

    Amen, Betty !!!!

  77. If Dugard’s captor used threats of harm to her children or family, then there is still coercion and it is still illegal. There is also the Patty Hearst syndrome to consider.

    Let’s say you have a situation where an adult captures an adult by force and holds them captive, submits them to rape, with holding food and sleep and the like over time. Then the captor removes restraints and the victim does not leave. The fact that the victim does not leave does not remove the crimes of capture by force and torture nor does it make rape into consensual sex. And it does not matter if the victim does not want to press charges; society should protect it’s citizens from someone who would carry out such acts.

  78. I see. So in your mind, Jaycee wanted to be there from the day she turned 18 onward. Is that the same way that, in your mind, all the FLDS women want to be there?
    =======================================
    It doesn’t matter what she wants. For kidnapping her from, what was it 14?, on to 18, the guy will be in prison for the rest of his life. Which I assume all of us want.

  79. It doesn’t matter what she wants.
    ————-
    My bad! I forgot for a second that you’re just a mealy-mouthed troll.

  80. Her sister by another of his wives, Merilyn, is the mother of Warren Jeffs. I highly doubt that Merilyn graduated from college and had a professional career.
    ======================================================
    As long as Merilyn is happy I don’t give a damn if she went to college or had a professional career. I have no idea why you want to force women to pursue a career and a post high school education if that is not their wishes.

  81. The idea that a woman cannot have an independent relationship with God brings me such an anger that I get an angry bile taste in my mouth. That makes me angrier than anything else they do or say.
    =====================================================
    You have a 1st amendment right to feel that way and I support you in that. I also support a woman’s right to feel differently from you.

  82. It doesn’t matter what she wants.
    ————-
    My bad! I forgot for a second that you’re just a mealy-mouthed troll.
    ==================================================
    Ta hell? You are the one telling me that it doesn’t matter what the victim wants, ie, Janet, how is this different?

  83. Alinusara10 said this on December 1, 2009 at 11:58 AM
    “You are the one telling me that it doesn’t matter what the victim wants, ie, Janet, how is this different?”

    Alinusara10 said this on December 1, 2009 at 11:50 AM
    “It doesn’t matter what she wants.”
    ———
    Ladies and gentlemen, for your viewing pleasure, a scary look inside the mind of an FLDS defender.

  84. Ladies and gentlemen, for your viewing pleasure, a scary look inside the mind of an FLDS defender.
    ———————————————
    Really Ellie? Here let’s be fair and show what your side is saying.
    ===========================================
    And it does not matter if the victim does not want to press charges; society should protect it’s citizens from someone who would carry out such acts.
    ==============================================
    I’m actually agreeing with you and you are so blinded by hatred you cannot see it.

  85. ellie,

    Yes, Ida Vilate’s mother is Ruth.

  86. “My side”? Strange, I don’t recall showing up for choosing teams. And I don’t appreciate you trying to put words in mouth.

    Maybe if you stopped thinking this is a game or war with ‘sides’, and started thinking for yourself, you might make some sort of logical sense.

  87. Well played, ellie.

  88. Yes, Ida Vilate’s mother is Ruth.
    ——–
    So that’s another mystery – what was a fourteen-year-old girl doing living in a different state from her mother, father and most of her family?

    If I read the dictations correctly, Warren shipped her back to Short Creek after Naomie came back, too.

  89. That was early in YFZ’s residential history, ellie. They were still building most of the housing.

    Ida Vilate eventually returned to YFZ and she turned 18 while in CPS custody.

    What was she doing at YFZ without her parents?

    That’s an easy one. She was learning to be a heavenly comfort wife like the rest of Warren’s underage wives.

  90. Maybe if you stopped thinking this is a game or war with ’sides’, and started thinking for yourself, you might make some sort of logical sense.
    ============================================
    Actually I think for myself. That’s why I agree with some, though definitely not all, of what some folks state on both sides of the issue. I’m sorry that I don’t fit your preconceived pattern of always either totally bashing or totally supporting FLDS.

    I would suggest that any major trial is a game or a war from both the prosecution and defense side. They both file motions to include or limit evidence, they both file motions to include or limit testimony, they both seek jurors more willing to be sympathetic to one side or another. Hell, they even have consultants to advise the defendants how to dress.

    You do realize that our justice system uses an adversarial system to weigh the evidence?

    “The adversarial system (or adversary system) of law is the system of law that relies on the contest between each advocate representing his or her party’s positions and involves an impartial person or group of people, usually a jury or judge, trying to determine the truth of the case.[1][2][3] As opposed to that, the inquisitorial system has a judge (or a group of judges who work together) whose task is to investigate the case.

  91. Alin, if you agree, then you aren’t a very good communicator. Almost everything you post here is adversarial.

  92. Alin, if you agree, then you aren’t a very good communicator. Almost everything you post here is adversarial.
    =====================================================
    Pretty much yeah Betty. A couple minor points here and there I’ve agreed about with most people who post here but it’s been fairly rare.

  93. Al,
    I think perhaps you missed the point Ellie was trying to make. From a societal point of view even if an individual consents to be murdered that doesn’t absolve the murderer. If an adult as legally defined by the state engages in sex with a child as legally defined by the state it is a legally defined crime against both the child AND THE STATE.
    The state has an interest in prosecution above and beyond vengeance or retribution for the child’s sake, but also for the crime against the state’s laws.

  94. Well said, HHG.

  95. “The state has an interest in prosecution above and beyond vengeance or retribution for the child’s sake, but also for the crime against the state’s laws.”

    BRAVO HelloHelloGoodbye! We are a nation of laws. No one is above them. That is exactly what makes us equal, under the LAW. Oh, unless you live in Utah or Arizona.

  96. One would think, with UT AG, Mark Shurtleff dropping out of the Senate race because of his “daughter’s mental illness issues”, he might like to find some time now to assist Matt Smith and Terry Goddard in the prosecution of Warren Jeffs in Arizona.

    Odds anyone?

    Where is that danged Arizona AG, Terry Goddard anyway?

  97. This was posted today on Medvecky’s site by Alinusara

    “Heh! Every time they [the FLDS] bring into question credibility of someone who tries to tear them down the KS folks start bawling about smear tactics.”

  98. lol Alinusara who?

  99. Boots do you really think that Shurtleff would be of any help?

    The only smart thing I’ve seen Shurtleff do in some years is drop out of the Senate race and take care of his family.

  100. I thought Wild Bill left the country?

  101. Apparently, he took his laptop with him. LOL.

  102. Hey I figure anyone who can wave an American flag, and lie to hundreds of abused boys on his capitol’s steps is capable of almost anything.

    He’s like the Anti-Father Flanagan.

  103. Mark Shurtleff dropped out becuase he wouldnt of made it through the ethic’s committee questioning. The man was involved with a known criminal, he wasn’t even raising enough money to run his campagein, he actually dropped out to save face, had nothing to do with his daughter.

  104. Thanks hellohellogoodbye, you said it much better than I could have.

  105. DD,

    I vote that you get to yell, BINGO!

    Isn’t it funny how he blamed a helpless woman? That’s so easy to do in Utah.

  106. deputydog1 Shurtleff was involved with A criminal? Don’t you mean criminals?

    Did you forget that he and Willie did the walkabout in the park? Meetings behind closed doors? Hmmm

    I know that in at least one of those meetings Mary B. was singing the same old song while Willie was dancing the dance.
    >>> shaking head <<<

    Too bad that the Public won't find out what Bennet was really looking to find info about. But then maybe they will anyway.

  107. I have an interesting series of pictures of Brooke and Willie hanging out together for over 40 minutes on the Eldorado Courthouse lawn. They must have had lots to catch up on together.

    Did Brooke have the equivalent of 40 minutes worth of new information from Willie to post or print?

    Did I miss that?

  108. Is the Keate trial still a go for next Monday?

  109. Yes it is, however, right now, as far as the AAAP is concerned, we have a greater challenge right now.

    One of our survivors in Utah is going through a difficult time, after being laid off. He’s a good, monogamous family man. He’s very young, and so is his wife. Both are in their twenties. He is in construction and has been laid off. They have three small children to feed and support.

    This person had courage and character enough to walk away from the FLDS, and the YFZ fantasy. He is a survivor.

    I honestly wish we could get him to Texas to look for a job. Construction is way down here as well, but not as bad as Utah. Heck, I know so many people in the business I bet I could get him in front of two decision makers. I’m sure other people here in Texas might know more? If we could get him here, I’d like the AAAP to help him and his family. They deserve it, and I think they would make good Texans, too.

  110. Boots Mike Watkiss had coffee with Willie. (Via his twitter) I heard an audio from Brookes blog in which I also heard Ben asking questions.

    40 minutes of Willie talking amounts to maybe one or two paragraphs imo.

    What would be cool is 40 minutes of Natalie Malonis asking him questions and getting answers.

    JonDana- I would bet there will be something in the papers on Tues about Keates trial.

  111. Willie’s empty loquacious rhetoric isn’t the issue.

    She wasn’t recording it, and boy, inside the courtroom when she was gathering anything new she scribbled away incessantly.

    That would be my point, though, wouldn’t it? Their relationship is more social than professional.

  112. Anyone reading Modern Pharisee’s current commentary don’t miss his comments posting for the “Pure Bauxite Deposit” theory he launches into now. The Colorado Springs PD and the Texas Rangers are in a mutual cover up of the whole YFZ Ranch removal, based upon his unfounded ‘hoax’ claim. He can’t prove anything after weeks of conjectures, so his thinking is to launch into yet another theory without even a scintilla of proof. No matter, the longer the theory is restated and expanded upon something new can be proclaimed.

    We know many think he is the ‘Aluminum Baron of Vermont’ but he’s really just a polygamy hobbyist trying to keep his failing dream alive to bring polygamy to Vermont. Stay tuned next week ‘Baron of Bauxite’ Mr. Allen Eugene Keates is soon to join your ranks.

  113. The odometer on this site rolled over again and I missed it.

    Do you realize that in nine months this blog has had 200,000 hits?

    Bravo, FLDS Texas, whoever you are!

    ……………….

    Yes, Bravo! I am totally addicted, this is an incredible blog with many interesting and well informed people commenting. Whoever is doing the work of posting the legal documents, thank you!

    Just wondering – would there be a chance of having a forum attached, instead of blog replies as we are reading now?

  114. Oh, and I watched Watkiss and the rest of them communicate with him as well. They all appeared to be official interviews, not lengthy casual conversation, with the FLDS hired videographer there for it as well.

    I was sitting in the car, or on a picnic bench in front of it, staring at the door to the jury room for six hours. JMO but I think I had time to make some objective observations about the activity on the courthouse lawn that day, while I waited for the jury to come back.

  115. Well heck Boots I would love to sit down and share a cup of coffee with Willie. And I can tell you some would call it being social and those that know me would say “There goes Walton being nosey again, Poor guy”.

    If Willie ever read the blogs he’d know what I was up to and probably shy away from me or give the good ol’ wave of the hand. But seeing my face enough times, he’d eventually sit down with me.

  116. Me: At age 28, Jaycee Dugard was also an adult woman. So in Alin’s world, since she could have walked away on her own accord, she should have been left in that filthy shack with her two children.
    ==================================================
    Alin: Nope. In my opinion her captor is guilty of kidnapping from the day she was taken until the day she turned 18 and must be punished for that. I have no sympathy for him because he stole Jaycee from her parents. I’ve always been pro family; I thought you all knew that by now.

    ………………………

    But you have sidestepped the point I was trying to make. Jaycee Dugard could have walked away, but she didn’t. Elizabeth Smart could have walked away, but she didn’t. You claim that polygamous wives can walk away too, implying that if they don’t then everything is just fine and dandy. Do you not see how ALL are victims of mind control, indoctrination, and fear tactics? Nobody has the right to treat another human that way, no matter if they are blood related or not.

    The purpose of an FLDS “family” is to provide the one male at the top with his own planet to eventually rule over.

    I believe the purpose of a real family is to provide our children with two things: roots and wings.

    In a great land such as ours, with unlimited possibilities for education, experience and careers available to anyone who wants it; with no legal barriors to success regarding gender, race, ethnicity, or religion; it breaks my heart to see teenage girls reduced to baby making machines just so some white guy can become a god.

  117. I saw other seemingly social exchanges as well. Don’t get me wrong. And I’m not saying I think Willie is smart enough to know who is doing what but I can tell you who does and doesn’t do any real investigative reporting or, for that matter, investigating period.

    There were real investigators who spoke to Willie that day. None of them seemed to be members of the media but they were there.

    Bang up job, too, from what I could tell.

  118. The only reason that I can think of that Alan Keate was in Warrens inner circle, was his marriage to Nora, Warrens full sister. I didn’t think Alan was inner circle material back when I knew him—- he was quite personable, and friendly

  119. Of course, that is what Wendell was like in public too……..
    Anyone know whatever happened to David Dutson, who lived at Wendells house in salt lake? he was caught molesting some of Wendells kids, but never kicked out, that I know of.

  120. Boots hang on to that thought. I have to go burn dinner. Be back later.

    Oncebitten and anon. keep that conversation going. I want to know more.

  121. Betty: The idea that a woman cannot have an independent relationship with God brings me such an anger that I get an angry bile taste in my mouth. That makes me angrier than anything else they do or say. If I were in the presence of someone who said that to me in sincerity, I would be concerned that they would go to the hospital and I would go to jail.

    ………………………

    I agree 100%

  122. Anyone have ideas on how to fix the whole mess that Joseph Smith caused?

  123. @ Jon Dana : Expose the Book of Mormon for what it is.
    A forgery, without any archeological or DNA evidence to support its claims.

  124. Funny for the day:

    Always use a cold pie. Somebody should have told a Galveston County family that before an argument escalated on Thanksgiving Day. A Texas City man, visiting his mother, allegedly shoved a piece of hot pecan pie, fresh from the microwave, into his sister’s face. She was up for the holiday with mom from Alvin. The woman was treated at the scene for burns and authorities say even though she has tried to get the case dropped, family violence is a serious matter in Texas, and the law says it must be prosecuted.

  125. Boots – second degree burns – ew !

  126. Expose the Book of Mormon for what it is.
    A forgery, without any archeological or DNA evidence to support its claims.

    ……………………….
    I always have thought how conveeeenient for Joseph Smith those golden plates have never been dug up again.

    IMO, he was a self-serving fraud. But there are many Mormons in my community, and they are the nicest people in the world.

    I see pairs of missionaries all the time, walking the sidewalks of my town in their white shirts, carrying their backpacks. They never knock on our door when I’m home, if they did I would invite them in. I would like to have a little chat about religions that bar women from positions of authority.

  127. Boots, cold pie is definitely my weapon of choice. If I can’t make my case with a chilled slice of apple pie, then I really have no grounds to stand on and will certainly get my just desserts.

    :0

  128. When my mother was in the Alzheimer ward, some lady tried to take her pecan pie and my mother decked her. I was there visiting and saw it. It was really kind of funny except that the management got kind of excited and told me that if she was repeatedly violent, she’d have to move out. I told them to make sure no one takes her pie and everything would be fine. Some people have no sense of humor.

  129. Cream pie. The choice of clowns everywhere.

  130. Anon @ 6:53 pm said :
    “I always have thought how conveeeenient for Joseph Smith those golden plates have never been dug up again.

    IMO, he was a self-serving fraud. But there are many Mormons in my community, and they are the nicest people in the world.”

    They (LDS) are absolutely some of the nicest people I have ever met.

    I concur.

    But they have been taken in by a fraud. There is absolutely no archeological or DNA evidence to support the BoM. It is irrefutable.

    Joseph Smith was a sociopath.

  131. Boots, I have no contacts in Texas but I applaud your impulse. However the unemployment rate for the construction industry was a breathtaking 19.1% in October, and there’s some concern that the industry will be looking at the second dip of a W-shaped recession soon.

    Having said that, wouldn’t it make more sense to help this young man retrain for a job in another industry?

  132. There is an article out
    http://frontpagemag.com/2009/11/30/subduing-women%E2%80%99s-sexuality-by-hege-storhaug/
    which I only skimmed so I have no idea if the writer is just writing opinion or has some degree of knowledge. it is on polygamy in the muslim world and s/he states

    Islam doesn’t attack sexuality in itself, but rather women’s potential for exercising total power over men. In Islam, sexuality is seen to have three main positive aspects: the human sexual drive ensures reproduction; it produces intellectual energy; and the sexual act itself provides the man with a foretaste of what he will experience in paradise – the eternal orgasm. On earth, however, man’s most important task is devotion to Allah. Therefore, love between man and wife is viewed as an enemy of Muslim society. Marital love can disturb the husband’s attachment to Allah.

    Seems pretty similar to what Warren Jeffs and FLDS seem to think.

  133. I thought y’all might enjoy this. Hot off the presses so to speak.

    http://tripleap.blogspot.com/2009/12/beyond-reach.html

  134. GFNY: That’s always a nice thought for people who can afford it. Most working people can’t take time off for things like that unless they want to put their families on public assistance. Most Texans aren’t real hip to plans like that.

    Of course, most Texans who qualify for public assistance never even apply for it anyway. We’re just funny like that.

  135. Ron, TBM, et al …

    I’m asking for legal clarifications/explanations from anyone in the know here on this blog.

    In reading Jennifer Dobner’s article about today’s SLC competency hearing for Brian David Mitchell, Jennifer wrote:

    “the second day of the competency hearing for Brian David Mitchell, 56, who faces federal charges of kidnapping and unlawful transportation of a minor across state lines.”

    Could someone please explain to me the difference between the “transportation of a minor across state lines” and the Mann Act?

    I have no doubt that Brian Mitchell raped Elizabeth Smart after kidnapping her in Utah, then he took her from Utah to California and continued to rape her. Then, he took her back to Utah.

    So, is this not a prime example of the Mann Act? I just don’t quite understand the charge against him.

    Thanks for your input and clarification.

  136. I’m no legal expert, Anonymous, but I’m guessing that the whole idea behind the Mann Act is a) taking someone like Elizabeth elsewhere to pimp her out or b) taking someone like Elizabeth to another state where the age of consent might be lower to avoid a charge of rape. In Mitchell’s case they’ve got him without the Mann Act violation so they probably won’t bother with it. That’s my layman’s guess.

  137. …sexual act itself provides the man with a foretaste of what he will experience in paradise – the eternal orgasm…

    NOT FAIR! Why is it only MEN who’ll get the perks in heaven??

  138. Boots thanks for sharing the clips. Sure makes a person think twice about moaning and groaning about the aches and pains of our day doesn’t it?

    Was really nice to see Mr. Fischer, Kathy Jo and Brent. I’ve read articles that have quoted Richie or mentioned him but I’ve never seen him before. He made me smile.

    Boots I’ve read about Kathy Jo’s brother Johnny before. But I along with everyone else don’t understand why the files/records aren’t made available to her.

    Mr. Fischer just lost a son not too long ago. I admire Mr. Fischer as well as the others who share their stories.

    I also recognized one of the other young men sitting next to Richie. I don’t know his name but he was on one of the news shows.

    Thanks again Boots.

  139. You’re welcome, Walton.

    Oh, and Betty, you’re right, a cream pie is the best.

    I had to share it. I haven’t had to write such a truly “Texas story” since covering the trial of the man acquitted of spitting on the police chief’s hamburger, licking the vegetables and rubbing the buns on his body before serving it to him in Burnet.

    The jury didn’t feel they had enough physical evidence, which the prosecution fairly pointed out was because the chief, well, ate it.

  140. NOT FAIR! Why is it only MEN who’ll get the perks in heaven??

    Because, they seem to be the ones who make all this complete crap up.

  141. Boots,
    Are you now involved in hands-on helping FLDS victims?

    I thought AAAP was just involved in ending polygamy (per your mission statement and former blog posts).

  142. Anon,

    What I’ve always said is I’m not interested in victims. I am, though, highly interested in assisting this survivor.

    I am also willing to make like Enterprise and “pick you up” if you want out of polygamy. After that the domestic violence experts get you, or some other expert on assisting victims. I’m willing to network but I don’t claim to put broken people back together.

    This kid isn’t broken. He is a good guy who deserves some help.

    GFNY was right, it is a natural impulse I have to help people who have consistently demonstrated that they like to help themselves. That takes grit and I admire it.

    I also happen to think he might be helpful to Texas on other levels, especially if he were here.

    Do you have any other questions about my, or the AAAP’s, willingness to render aid to polygamy survivors?

  143. Sorry, I forgot to link to Jennifer Dobner’s article about the 2nd day in the competency hearing for Brian David Mitchel.

    Here it is:
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gxQNNYF3PHpZFtuPinrxw9nLba9gD9CAQTOG3

  144. Boots, I am always willing to help someone leave.
    You know me.
    I am always up for an adventure.

  145. “NOT FAIR! Why is it only MEN who’ll get the perks in heaven??”
    @ MC1199 :
    Answer :
    because they wrote the books …

  146. CW, your answer was more eloquent but seems to be the same as mine, lol.

  147. “Also testifying Tuesday morning was a former psychiatric nurse at the State Hospital in American Fork. Leslie Miles told the court Mitchell often sang, but agreed to stop after she told him some of the other patients were becoming agitated and she was concerned for Mitchell’s safety.”

    Hmmm, he obviously has a safety switch.

  148. Boots,
    I was just asking for clarification.

    I thought the AAAP was a PAC rather than a group providing hands-on assistance.

    I thought I read that months ago on your web site. I just went to your web site and saw that it has all changed.

    My recollection of your mission is from first reading your web site back when you were just getting started and you had a different president and board.

    Your new web site takes a different approach than it did months ago.

    I don’t need you to bite my head off because I am not up on your latest goals.

  149. where are the dreams of Warren Jeffs recorded ?
    I wanted the good doctor to take a look …

  150. Anon,

    I thought you were [name redacted], sorry, I am pretty tense lately.

    I didn’t mean to bite your head off at all.

    The mission and vision have not changed at all. We do have a new board of directors.

  151. We are also not a PAC.

  152. wow, anonymous, your last post was misconceived cus I sure didn’t read boots response in any way but helpful.

  153. No, it’s okay JonDana, I really did give a rather cold answer. For some reason the way it was phrased reminded me of he whose name we dare not speak, lmao. I’ve had enough run ins with him to turn kinda cold when I think I’m answering him.

    Please, Anon, accept my humble apologies for the coldness of my response. As noted many times here before, I’m the “hard core” of the group. But like I told the Rangers, with a smile when they were searching me, “I may be a hard ass but I’m a sane legal one”.

    I’ll work on my “tone” and try to be less defensive when I see things that trigger my inner hard ass.

  154. Boots said :
    “I’m the “hard core” of the group”
    Hey – What about ME ???
    I’m pretty hard core.

  155. Boots – I checked out your site and I’m impressed with your advocacy. Also, there’s nothing wrong with righteous indignation, or anger. Its the greatest of motivators.

  156. Thanks sugar. I appreciate that. It is a great motivator, usually because the truth is, deep inside, you are such a softy that the idea of people being trapped or in pain is almost unbearable.

    Standing in Colorado City made me feel dark and hopeless. Despair is a terrible feeling and the air there is rife with it.

    I was a runaway as a child. When I stood in Colorado City I understood for the first time what Flora had been telling me all along. There was nowhere to run.

    To me that meant only one thing: slavery was your only option.

    ::shivers::

  157. CW, can I hitch a ride with you?

    I’ve always been up for a good road trip too, but I have to admit that this current health problem has me running a little scared. Until it’s resolved, I have to qualify my oft-stated assertion that I could take down Wee Willie in a fight.

  158. GFNY, always ready, willing and able to provide transportation.
    We will then have to collaborate on taking Wee Willie down.

  159. Just wondering what you mean by taking William Jessop down?

  160. Good morning FLDS Texas!!!

  161. It appears that Honey Dawn’s blog has been attacked by vicious Gentile anti – polygamy activists !

  162. I am wondering following Allen Keate’s and Michael Emack’s trial verdicts if Willie R. Jessop is still going to be standing outside the Courtroom proclaiming that sexual assault is a victimless crime and the YFZ Ranch enclave is just like any other small Texas community? It seems to me at some point the rotten stench will of first degree convictions and covert criminal activities will begin to permeate the Courthouse area to the point that even po’ boy Willie R. Jessop will begin to shy at proclaiming an innocence view and claim of normalcy within this crime riddled FLDS Texas enclave. Willie R. Jessop’s long standing claim that he knew nothing of ‘Child Bride’ wedlocks and his unending defense of those accused of such crimes of rape against underage girls just doesn’t pass the smell test.

    Alinusara when Willie R. Jessop is brought down, I trust they hold his neck long enough to rub his nose into it and he get’s a good whiff. For me these cases are turning the Courthouse into the local refuse dump for unwanted sexual perpetrators and Capitol of Texas sexual assault felons.

  163. Don’t hold back, caljim, tell us what you really think! LOL.

    On the other hand, there are followers of Tony Alamo who are still loudly protesting his innocence and claiming that the women who testified against him and were once his young companions are lying, adulterous apostates with a grudge against him. Sound familiar?

  164. For me these cases are turning the Courthouse into the local refuse dump for unwanted sexual perpetrators and Capitol of Texas sexual assault felons.
    ==================================================
    If you don’t like what they are turning the courthouse into then don’t try them. Simple enough solution. It doesn’t appear certain btw if Allen Keate’s case will go to trial and if it does it certainly won’t be in Texas.

  165. On the other hand, there are followers of Tony Alamo who are still loudly protesting his innocence and claiming that the women who testified against him and were once his young companions are lying, adulterous apostates with a grudge against him…
    ========================================================
    Actually I think the argument is they are survivors of recovered memories syndrome. I am skeptical about Tony Alamo’s case but since I haven’t followed it as closely I kept my skepticism to myself.

  166. “One of our survivors in Utah is going through a difficult time, after being laid off. He’s a good, monogamous family man. He’s very young, and so is his wife. Both are in their twenties. He is in construction and has been laid off. They have three small children to feed and support.

    This person had courage and character enough to walk away from the FLDS, and the YFZ fantasy. He is a survivor.

    I honestly wish we could get him to Texas to look for a job. Construction is way down here as well, but not as bad as Utah. “Heck, I know so many people in the business I bet I could get him in front of two decision makers. I’m sure other people here in Texas might know more? If we could get him here, I’d like the AAAP to help him and his family. They deserve it, and I think they would make good Texans, too.”
    Hmmmm… sounds familiar, wonder if I know the guy??

  167. **beats head on desk and repeats DFTT mantra**

  168. I am watching “Damned to Heaven”

    “Of course all men prefer to marry a virgin. Kinda like buying a new car instead of a used car.”

    Creepy creepy creepy creepy

  169. Yeah, Anon, and he didn’t seem to even notice what his comment was showing about him. Or thinks it’s fine to talk of women as if they were something you buy and get the title to.

  170. Would women prefer the guy to be a virgin? I mean other then no sexually transmitted deceases I see no advantage to it. Well for the religious types I suppose it shows that the man and/or woman is willing to make a commitment. Other thoughts?

  171. Allen Keate’s case will go to trial
    =============================================
    My mistake it appears. I thought Michael Emack was next but it appears Allen Keate’s is next. I got my Allen Keate mixed up with my Allen Steed.

  172. ‘Would women prefer the guy to be a virgin? I mean other then no sexually transmitted deceases I see no advantage to it.”

    Advantage # 2 of sexual contact with a male virgin : Lower risk of contracting HPV Types 16 and 18 infection, which are associated with the development of cervical cancer.

  173. I think the women would like to not be referred to as a thing that one purchases. Sort of reinforces our theory that polygamy is slavery. And right from the horse’s..um..mouth.

  174. My first time my partner was a virgin. It was sweet and innocent. But that hasn’t been my primary concern since then. Sane, employed, single, clean, kind, intelligent…..nice butt. And the older I get the less the butt matters and the more the Sane and Kind matter. It must be pleasant to spend time together and you need to be able to resolve a conflict and work as partners. Fundamentalist Patriarchs need not apply.

  175. When the YFZ Raunch first moved into town and the smoke screen of lies and covert activities began, nobody in Schleicher County or Eldorado elected officials were told the truth as to this sects intentions, hidden agenda or planned 500+ resident population. This whole saga began with half-truths, outright fabrications and phony behaviors. look at the community nest that hatched this egg. Warren Jeff’s was a hunted fugitive by the FBI and now the citizens of Schleicher County find he is indicted on two separate Grand Jury indictments for felonies committed at the YFZ Raunch. Just before the FLDS buys their new hold-out at the YFZ Raunch, the State of Arizona convicted 6 FLDS Priesthood men of sexual offenses against ‘Child Brides’, the Federal Courts seized the United Effort Plan Trust for unlawful acts and mismanagement and Six FLDS members were being held for contempt for refusing to testify to a Federal Grand Jury in Arizona, namely James Allred, Mica Barlow, Leroy Jeffs, Benjamin Nielsen, Samuel Allred and Leroy Timpson. Little wonder that David Allred purchased the YFZ Raunch under masked ownership and claimed to be planning a hunting lodge, couldn’t really just announce that the FLDS Church is moving into the county.

    Now Willie R. Jessop stands outside of the Eldorado Court and states that the FLDS community is just like any other Texas community? Where’s David Allred and who’s Willie’s replacement when his lies no longer are believed?

  176. “It doesn’t appear certain btw if Allen Keate’s case will go to trial and if it does it certainly won’t be in Texas.”

    Huh?

    Can I have some of what you’re injesting?

    Allen Keate’s trial will start next week in Eldorado. If a jury cannot be seated there, it will be moved to San Angelo.

    BTW, Keate’s case is a state charge. No one other than Texas can try him on it.

  177. Okay, just read that you meant Allen Glade Steed.

  178. “If you don’t like what they are turning the courthouse into then don’t try them. Simple enough solution.”

    Right. If you find criminals to be lowlife scum then don’t prosecute them. We (the Gentiles) should have just let the LeBaron’s continue their killing spree. After all, they’re scum and sleaze up any courtroom they’re in, right? Trolls are almost amusing sometimes.

  179. Alin: If you don’t like what they are turning the courthouse into then don’t try them. Simple enough solution.

    …………………..

    What is wrong with you? Just when I get fooled into thinking your are interested in honest debate, bizarre logic like this comes out of your mouth.

  180. I just finished watching “Damned to Heaven.” While the discussions on this blog have focused on the crimes committed against children, it was also sad to listen to the husbands and fathers who were kicked out of their homes and torn from their families on the orders of Warren Jeffs.

  181. I just noticed that I am no longer logged in as Anon E Mouse – the last couple of comments were mine, sorry!

  182. Remember citizens of Texas, if your not inclined to accept this new neighbor, you can always endure being called a narrow minded bigot, hatemonger, anti-Mormon, genocide supporter and Constitutional rights violators. Great propaganda coming from the FLDS Church with a rap sheet longer than the length of both of their arms, multiple felonies committed each and every year since their arrival and Grand Jury indictments and impending gamut of convictions from a religious community, no less. I say their freedom ends where any Texan’s nose begins, if they need ‘Freedom of Religion’ then Texas needs “Freedom from Religion” and the sooner the firebrand of ‘felon’ sex offender can be placed on their criminal hides the sooner Law & Order prevails in the great Lone Star state.

  183. CaJim,

    I think I love you.

  184. I felt like that to Mouse. There are lots of men who have been abused at the hands of WSJ by having their wives and children removed. I wonder if those kicked out were against WSJ’s lowering of the marriage age to 12.

  185. ProudTexan,

    I don’t really see that since the guy in “Damned To Heaven” had been kicked out and didn’t mind marrying off little girls at all. He actually advocated it as healthy family planing.

  186. Walton—

    Is tomorrow okay?

  187. The guy in “Damned to Heaven” had been kicked out by Warren and then started following Winston Blackmore. Same song, second verse.

  188. Boots that sounds great. Thanks. 🙂

  189. Did anyone read the Eldorado Success today?

    http://myeldorado.net/

  190. The Pharisee is back beating his same dead horse on Brooke’s blaugh about blog site visitation numbers/rankings.

    He posted just a couple hours ago that

    “As far as site rankings go, no one would go to FLDS Texas were it not for the linkage found here or the stray search engine hit.”

    DUH – Brooke removed blog roll links from her blaugh weeks ago.

    What in the world is this nutcase talking about?

    His comment was made after someone mentioned that this site has had more than 200,000 hits.

    Boy, is that guy fixated on blog visits and rankings. And lying about visitors coming here from links on her blaugh.

    Pathetic!

  191. LOL

    A photo of Rulon Jeffs and the cutline “Back from the Dead” in the teaser of the Eldorado Success.

    The Mankins have a great sense of humor.

  192. Walton, I’m an Eldorado Success email subscriber.

  193. Yes Walton, I did notice that. This is what I thought:

    “As far as site rankings go, no one would go to FLDS Texas were it not for the linkage found here or the stray search engine hit.”

    As far as site rankings go, only insecure children obsess over them or ascribe motives to them. But Huge Ego has always had a rich and full fantasy life.

    “Use of comparative publicly available ranking tools shows the Malonis Mouthpiece to be an infrequently frequented source for the straight skinny.”

    How very true, FLDS Texas IS a great site for links to actual documents, as opposed to Huge Ego’s site which is a great site for flights of fancy, paranoid conspiracy theories, and senile drivel from a pot with a few too many cracks in it to hold any water.

  194. Regarding Pharisee, Anonymous Said :

    “Boy, is that guy fixated on blog visits and rankings.”
    Yes, when you are a complete failure personally and professionally, with untreated bipolar disorder, as well as narcissistic, histrionic, paranoid and anti social personality disorders, your entire self concept is based on rankings of your blog.

    I still think most people visit the Pharisee’s blog to observe the rich display of untreated psychopathology on display there.

  195. I can’t read the Eldorado success story. Can someone please post a more readable page?

  196. catwhisperer, you really do have a way with words!

  197. texastwist, I chuckled at that too. cajiM, I couldn’t agree with you more, except to add that with them they sucked in a ‘mouth,’ so to speak, in the form of a so called reporter, who is is really an advocate.

    Tonight I read in the Success article about the motion to quash the indictments being held on Friday, that a private investigator has been contacting Schliecher County citizens and asking them about their experiences on previous Grand Jury panels. What is that all about? I thought Grand Jury proceedings in Texas were secret?

  198. Texastwist- I really like Randy and the Kathy’s. And I agree Randy has a sense of humor. I am always hoping that he has something in his rambl’n column.

    Connie I know we can’t copy and paste anything because of the copywrite laws but in a nut shell after what was printed do you expect that they will let the cameras in the courtroom this time?
    I really hope so.

  199. With all these documents how can a person tell if they are real?

    A year ago I would never have asked such a question. But now I find my self looking for dates and some type of stamp thing from the courthouse.

    So are these real?

    Does anyone know what happened to Blues? He would always do a great job breaking it all down for me.

  200. Grand Jury proceedings are supposed to be private, so the PI is probably asking illegal questions.

  201. Right. If you find criminals to be lowlife scum then don’t prosecute them. We (the Gentiles) should have just let the LeBaron’s continue their killing spree….
    ====================================
    You missed my point Rebeckah. I was merely saying if you want to try them sure go ahead. Just don’t bitch about it.

  202. I say their freedom ends where any Texan’s nose begins, if they need ‘Freedom of Religion’ then Texas needs “Freedom from Religion”
    =======================================
    I have to disagree. Our Constitution is the supreme law of the land.

  203. Good morning FLDS Texas !!!
    >200,000 hits and growing !

  204. I don’t really pay attention to how many hits any particular site has reached but congrats!.

  205. Thanks!! Can’t believe it!

  206. Yes, our Constituion is the supreme law of the land. The Supreme Court’s long standing ruling, see Reynolds vs. the United States decision of 1879, on breaking any existing statute or committing a felony is not a right protected by this freedom. Rather it is a long established limitation on the “Freedom of Religion” or First Amendment. Blindly following the illegal tenets of your religion or latest revelation of your Seer/Revelator might get you charged with a felony, no legal means of a defense and get you convicted in a Court of Law. So this underscores that the meaning of the “Freedom of Religion” is as defined and interpreted by the Supreme Court and not your local self-appointed medicine man, guru, prophet nor religious fanatic.

    See in our American Democracy we don’t abide the rantings of some unelected beliefs of any religious theocracy, that’s responsible for committing a series of felonies all under the mistaken guise of religious freedoms.

  207. Pretty decent post Cajim. If I remember right we had a case recently about animal sacrifice. Part of the argument was animals get slaughtered all the time, the only thing that makes this different is it is done for religious purposes in this case. The appellents did prevail.

    I touched on that argument that you brought up but I don’t believe I will go down that road. My argument will stay will illegal search and seizure and I think I will stay with that argument until the higher courts have made a ruling. Piccarreta made a terrific motion.

    Question posed for legal scholars:

    If Arizona finds the evidence was obtained unlawfully can Warren Jeffs use the findings of Arizona to fight extradition to Texas?

  208. Odd, I think Picarreta’s motion was a bunch of crap and included mixing up times. For instance, he claims that Flora told Doran that she thought the calls were a hoax, but he fails to note that that happened AFTER the raid and the warrants, not before. The clue there in his motion is that he put no dates whatsoever on most of his details.

  209. Betty,

    Really now, do you think Matt Smith is smart or motivated enough to point something so simple out?

    “If Arizona finds the evidence was obtained unlawfully..” Arizona has never once let facts get in the way of a good free pass for polygamists.

    Remember, this “judge” gave a man 45 days in county jail for the same crime a Texas jury just sentenced Raymond Jessop to ten years in prison for committing. Hmmmmm….

    Oh, silly me! I forgot that in Arizona they actually agree with Willie,”There was no victim”.

  210. It wasn’t particularly recent. I think it was in the 1990’s.

    Religion cannot be the stated target nor the test of the crime. In other words, if an act is legal outside of a religious ritual, placing the act in the ritual cannot be considered illegal. The problem with the law was that it’s wording included stating that it was illegal solely because it was a religious ritual. The desired end result could be (and indeed has been) accomplished simply by making any torture or killing of an animal illegal unless it is done by a licensed butcher, veterinarian, research lab for their normal purposes. It is not illegal or an attack on religion to make a law against torturing animals just because a religious group moves into your vicinity and begins to torture animals. It IS unconstitutional if the law states that religion is part of what makes the torture illegal.

  211. Legal technicalities, Court rulings, appeals and motions is a tough way to feed a criminal enterprise that has invaded Texas, Colorado, South Dakota, etc.
    Alinusara no legitimate church groups has ever gone to the extremes of the Fundamentalist LDS in their unbridled quest to liberalize civil rights and freedoms, devoid of appeal to the ballot box. Funny how much money, legal defense and squandered resources are being expended without any end in sight. I guess,’One Man Rule’ knows no bounds and good luck with your fantasies because your courtroom results will attest for themselves. Let’s await the Utah Supreme Court ruling on Warren S. Jeffs appeal to overturn his felony conviction on appeal, for starters, reality and the ‘Will of the People’ should play into any flight of fantasy you now entertain.

  212. Well, Boots, I just assumed he was lying and started looking for them. Wasn’t that hard. I hope you are wrong about the way Conn will react. I want to see that Jeffs never walks free again. He needs 175 years like Tony Alamo.

  213. Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah — 1993

    The local ordinance banned practices which were used in the practice of Santeria, but excluded similar acts which were used in kosher butchering. Because it was not a law of general applicability, SCOTUS applied the compelling interest test and the ordinance failed.

    Different issues when discussing bigamy laws or sexual assault statutes as they pertain to underage persons. Arguments that states do not have a compelling interest in those matters will continue to fail. Additionally, such statutes are also laws of general applicability.

    Invoking Hialeah alone as an argument that a contemporary SCOTUS would overturn Reynolds is an oversimplification of the application of the free exercise clause.

  214. “You missed my point Rebeckah. I was merely saying if you want to try them sure go ahead. Just don’t bitch about it.”

    “I have to disagree. Our Constitution is the supreme law of the land.”

    Actually, since YOUR Constitution seems to justify religious anarchy under the guise of religious freedom, I don’t think we follow the same Constitutions at all. And the Constitution isn’t the supreme law of the land so much as the foundation of the law of the land. Some laws are federally mandated, some laws are state mandated, and the Constitution only comes into play when one side or the other calls on it to verify the foundation of said law.

    Joseph Smith was wrong 150 some odd years ago when he said he could do anything under the First Amendment right to religious freedom; you and the FLDS are wrong today when you say the same thing. We get that you believe children are the property of their parents (and not people with their own basic human rights) and that females should not be allowed to grow up with balanced and well rounded educations to make their own choices. It’s clear that you think nothing of women and children being forced into miserable situations, married young as long as their parents are willing to condone it, and if they are unhappy, to blame them for their unhappiness. So please, don’t hide your own inhumanity and misogyny behind the Constitution. Just because the framers of our Constitution didn’t envision predatory abusers like Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs it doesn’t mean that those two men and what they’ve built is in any way good, Godly, or praiseworthy.

  215. Caj: I guess,’One Man Rule’ knows no bounds

    …………….

    I am still partially in a daze from watching “Damned to Heaven.’ So much personal pain that “One man” and his thugs have inflicted on so many people. So many families torn apart by this cult that claims they are no different than any other community.

    Americans don’t tolerate mini-dictators who establish themselves like malignant tumors in our landscape. I don’t think polygamy will ever be eradicated, but just as the big Mafia bosses were brought down, the criminal enterprises of Warren Jeffs will eventually be dismantled.

  216. “My argument will stay will illegal search and seizure and I think I will stay with that argument until the higher courts have made a ruling.”

    Does this mean that you will finally accept that the search and seizure were lawful when the higher court so rules? I certainly believe they will since LE seems to have behaved in good faith and appropriately in this matter. No matter how much whining the FLDS do, they really haven’t been treated any differently than any other group of criminals trying to evade the law — except that the FLDS children were accomodated far more carefully and gently than most children who are taken into CPS care from what I can see.

  217. “Alinusara no legitimate church groups has ever gone to the extremes of the Fundamentalist LDS in their unbridled quest to liberalize civil rights and freedoms, devoid of appeal to the ballot box.”

    I disagree, caJim. Look at the Scientologists. They’re even worse, but only by a little and they at least don’t have a major tenet that involves impregnating young girls.

  218. And the Constitution isn’t the supreme law of the land so much as the foundation of the law of the land.
    ================================================
    Are you serious?

    “This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.”

    Which is similar to our 14th amendment:

    “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.”

  219. Does this mean that you will finally accept that the search and seizure were lawful when the higher court so rules? I certainly believe they will since LE seems to have behaved in good faith and appropriately in this matter.
    ============================================================
    Nah! They seemed to acted in reckless regard to the truth; the truth being it was a hoax call.

  220. except that the FLDS children were accomodated far more carefully and gently than most children who are taken into CPS care from what I can see.
    ==============================================
    Heh! Like that severely dehydrated baby that had to be rushed to the hospital? I fear for Texas’s children if that was gentle.

  221. Spoken like a true self-appointed fanatic Judge/Jury/Jailer of FLDS Theocracy. Why don’t you report back to your Friends of Felons on Bile Medvecky’s blog and give your version of the truth, edited so he won’t delete your post and chastise you for not upholding the Felon’s code of Innocent, even after conviction, you know the ‘railroad clause’. Oh, the suspected hoax caller has never been charged with any misdemeanor act(s) in Texas regarding the whole YFZ Ranch removal but all FLDS lovers have tried and convicted an uncharged suspect.

  222. Not only is it an oversimplification, texastwist, but it misses the entire point. Polygamy is illegal for everyone whether or not they have a religious ceremony and irregardless of what kind of religious ceremony. That ruling does not apply to polygamy in any way. But they can keep on wishing.

  223. Alinusara
    We all know what the amendments say , what you don’t seem to understand is that part of the constitution is the Judicuary (Supreme Court) which interprets the constitution and its ammendments.
    The Supreme Court is the as much part of the constitution as the Constitution itself. And the rulings handed down by the Supreme Court are LAW of the Land, Like it, Or NOT!

  224. We’re feeding the troll, again. We all know, and so should he, that the baby was not dehydrated because of neglect or abuse but because of illness.

    When he said that the Alamo conviction was false because of recovered memories, that should be taken as a clue. There was no issue of recovered memories with Alamo. Those girls did not forget, they were just afraid to come forward, unaware that it was illegal or still under the influence of the cult and/or their parent’s involvement in the cult. There were photographs of “weddings” and babies born. There were relative large numbers of people in the inner circle who were completely aware that Alamo had multiple “brides” and that they were younger and younger. The defense of Alamo focused on the intent of the travel, and did not discuss or dispute whether or not Alamo had had sex with the girls.

    It’s really obvious. In Alinusara’s world, the male sexual abuser is always right and the victim is always either willing or wrong. And in his world, the warrants MUST be invalid because otherwise he would have to admit that the FLDS leadership regularly marries under aged girls. He consistently avoids the central issue of the abuse and focuses on some small detail of someone else’s post.

  225. Absolutely Betty!

  226. And if Alinusara is saying EVERY person, then it also means every child. Children of young age are not capable of protecting themselves, and if parents dont, then the LAW steps in to do it.

  227. any word on TBM?
    He hasn’t posted in awhile

  228. TBM has a new post. Maybe he’s in mourning over Oklahoma’s football season,

  229. “It’s really obvious. In Alinusara’s world, the male sexual abuser is always right and the victim is always either willing or wrong.”

    Usaully they seem to be both in Al’s world. Let’s face it, Al is of the “pure saints” and “unchaste sluts” philosophy towards women. He can’t allow them to be human beings with human feelings because then he’s have to face how the religion he embraces so fervently harms them.

  230. Alin asked: “Just wondering what you mean by taking William Jessop down?”

    That’s Wee Willie Winky or the Fat Brat to you, mister.

    I meant just what I wrote. Bullies intimidate people with the threat of violence. They never respond to reason, only to an alpha display of threatening behavior, after which they usually subside (they’re often quite cowardly). Knowing you can take them down in a fair fight means you stand some chance of not being forced to fight. So as soon as my lungs clear, it’s back to kick-boxing.

    Besides, you know what they say: the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

  231. Is this prosecution/persecution? Or is this Utah actually enforcing the law?

    Springville man pleads guilty to sex with minor

    PROVO — A Springville man who prosecutors say groomed a 16-year-old girl to become his second wife pleaded guilty Wednesday to 10 felonies.

    Bret MacArthur, 43, pleaded guilty in 4th District Court to nine counts of unlawful sexual conduct with a 16- or 17-year-old and one count of attempted sexual exploitation of a minor. The charges are third-degree felonies, and each carries a possible prison sentence of up to five years.

    His sentencing is set for Jan. 19.

    MacArthur’s wife, Jennifer, whom prosecutors contend also took part in numerous sexual encounters, is scheduled to stand trial in February on three similar charges.

    link to the rest of the story:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705348943/Springville-man-pleads-guilty-to-sex-with-minor.html

  232. “Is this prosecution/persecution?”

    Persecution!

    Genocide!

    DEER DO IT!

  233. I learned in jui-jitsu that if they are really big, they may fall hard, but it’s harder to make them fall. Really fat people are hard to put off balance. I once studied in a class with a Hawaiian who was tall, strong, fat and double jointed. Almost impossible to hurt that man without just jumping up and poking him in the eyes. Anything I say to speculate why this is true will be crude and insulting to someone, I’m sure. But trust me on that one. If suddenly faced with a sumo wrestler (or a very chubby patriarch), kick him in the nuts or the knee cap and run like hell.

  234. They never respond to reason, only to an alpha display of threatening behavior

    Greetings, you always have a erudite comment. Willie while dressed up and not appearing so thuggish is still nothing more than your typical street bully.

  235. They seemed to acted in reckless regard to the truth; the truth being it was a hoax call.

    ……………………………..

    As long as they acted in good faith, then they were not abusing their powers.

    Of course, it IS the truth that FLDS grown men were having sex with underage girls.

    They are just furious now that they are being called to justice for their abuse.

  236. As long as they acted in good faith, then they were not abusing their powers.

    Of course, it IS the truth that FLDS grown men were having sex with underage girls.

    They are just furious now that they are being called to justice for their abuse.

    Therein lies the rub. Anytime anyone says “hoax call” they’re really just spouting a red herring. The alleged “hoax” (at least to any PPSG person) was that there was an underage female being abused by her polygamist husband. In reality, (or at least the reality of a more objective truth) the only “hoax” was that the caller was not from the ranch. There were multiple underage females being abused by their polygamist husbands.

  237. GFNY,
    Glad to see you are back in fighting form.

  238. “There were multiple underage females being abused by their polygamist husbands.”

    And to say that any reasonable investigation would have revealed that the caller was not on the ranch overlooks a) the details that only someone on the ranch would have known and b) that there was plenty of reason already given to believe in the call completely. Just because the FLDS don’t want to believe apostates it doesn’t follow that anyone else is going to close their eyes to the information they provide.

  239. Is it my imagination or has not only Brooke’s blog died but also the polygamy page on the Tribune?

  240. Yup, seems that way to me. What’s there to say when faced with DNA????

  241. Well Brooke Adams appears to be reassigned from exclusively reporting on polygamy as her sole/singular reporting focus. At least for the next year, owing to the Grand Jury indictment of the FLDS ‘Dirty Dozen’, Brooke finds her number one polygyny group now focused out of Utah and centered in Schleicher County(Eldorado), Texas. Doesn’t seem to be much chance that the Eldorado Success or San Angelo Standard-Times newspapers are going to add a polygamy focus to their local community coverage anytime soon. You see those two area press publications view polygamy as a criminal scourage and unwelcomed deviant practice being imported from Utah. Warren Jeffs’ revelation that the FLDS Church will become a scattered people kind of scatters Brookes biggest focus group across several Western States and makes her prized focus polygamy church group rather hard to cover. No matter, it’s not like other areas/regions are going to hold to some micro-Mormon focus from all of these ‘Lands of Refuge’ locations anyway. Maybe Brooke can refocus a new column to cover ‘Prison People of Polygyny’ and how many years before they are released or paroled. I would sort of like to keep tabs on all the incarcerated convicts of bigamy and know when to appear in opposition of any parole hearings. I don’t think Warren’s worth reviewing though because he doesn’t look to ever get out of prison, again. Maybe, a countdown to Lyle Jeffs getting arrested and charged would make a nice forecast discussion topic.

  242. All I can add to cajIM’s comment is “hear, hear.” Well said.

  243. Connie care to venture how long Lyle Jeffs lasts as a ‘free as a bird’ bishop of Bigamy or any of the FLDS Church’s other bishops, namely Jimmy Oler, Dan Johnson or Merlin Jessop. I hope these trials lead to waking up the threatened communities of Bountiful, Canada, Mancos, CO and Pringle, SD to the home invasion aspects of covert enclaves being granted criminal safehavens in those states. Hopefully, British Columbia’s Supreme Court Chief Justice Robert Bauman tries the constitutionality of bigamy laws in Canada will further raise the courts responsibilities of law enforcement and victim protections.

  244. And maybe someone will look into those giant “root cellars” to see if they are really full of turnips.

  245. cajIM, I can only hope you’re right — but I continue to be amazed at how people seem NOT to want to wake up to what is going on right under their collective noses. As you indicated, the Bishop of Bountiful, aka Winston Blackmore could be in for a surprise this month or next as Canada’s Supreme Court reviews whether polygamy is a protected religious practice under their Constitution. The vast majority of Canadians are against it, but the political elites have refused to prosecute, so Blackmore’s reign goes unchecked. I pray that all changes with a Supreme Court decision.

    With Texas at least prosecuting the leaders of the YFZ Felony Farm (even if CPS top power structure failed the children) it is having a spillover effect on Arizona and Utah. And the UEP is in death throes with FLDS throwing all the members’ money at high-priced lawyers who are powerless to stop the momentum.

    I really do worry about the Colorado and South Dakota enclaves. I pray the citizens there are paying close attention to what’s happening elsewhere.

  246. T-Connie, Bishop Jim Oler is the Creston Valley FLDS Bishop. Warren Blackmore is just the Apostate Bishop to the FLDS faction, funny though with over twenty wives and a hundred progeny Winston would seem to be the FLDS poster priesthood father rather than the local exFLDS malcontent. At least until the BC Supreme Court ruling is made, my guess would be that American ‘Child Brides’ being trafficked to Canada has slackened.

  247. You’re correct, cajIM. Blackmore can no longer hold his former title of Bishop of Bountiful. I forgot that the Canada contingent of polygamous pedophiles is now split between those faithful to Warren and the rest of the bunch. I’m praying that the BC Supreme Court ruling will stop the trafficking altogether–in both directions.

  248. Winks held good sway with Rulon, and to be honest, I think he would have committed less horrible crimes than Warren, the lesser of two evils.

    He was exed by Warren because he wanted audience with Rulon outside of earshot of Warren.

    The paranoia of Warren kicked in and *WHOOSH* Winston was gone.

  249. Oh good grief, here we go again…

    Judge challenged in trial of FLDS members: Motion to disqualify to be heard Monday

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/04/judge-challenged-in-trial-of-flds-members-motion/

  250. Exactly what is going to happen when we have hundreds of FLDS members, with thousands of dependents, declaring bankruptcy because they tithed their every last dime to a leadership that frittered it all away on pointless lawsuits?

  251. ellie,

    I don’t know but I think the Texas AG should sue the states of Utah and Arizona for failing to enforce the law for the last 100 years.

    Texas deserves to be compensated for the cost of this crime family’s move to our state.

  252. Gerry’s motion will be denied.

    The district court judge selects the grand jury commissioners in accordance with the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure.

    Goldstein knows this.

  253. You’ve just got to love Judge Walther. “In anticipation of your motion” another Judge is on stand by.

    Does this objection have any validity? Wasn’t she just available for the Grand Jury to answer questions?

  254. texastwist, why would he do it? Is there some strategy behind it or is he just being ‘the Picaretta of the east?’

  255. Without reading the motion to see what his rationale is, Miele, my guess is that he is preserving issue for the appeals.

  256. I wonder how much these lawyers are charging by the hour? I wonder how much the defense for all these cases has cost so far.
    Surely there must be a limit to their funds.

  257. Thanks twist.

  258. I talked to one Ranger during the tour who had to sit through a three day hearing in San Angelo. He was never called to testify but he told us that between the team of lawyers, the legal assistants and private investigators they had running in and out, if they were spending one thin dime, they were spending 8 grand an hour.

  259. I just was over looking at Honey Dawn’s site….Now I see why duane has been so absent here [at least I’ve enjoyed not seeing him]…He is there now. All bright, cheerful and friendly..and still full of carp.. It looks like Honey is falling for it, too.. I guess he’s found a friendlier outlet for his flds dreams and fantasies…

  260. Duane has been absent here because he’s been banned. He’ll show his true colors at HoneyDawn’s soon enough.

  261. I think HoneyDawn is dealing with Duane wonderfully.

    I know this was talked about a while ago, but I too am really interested in the whole Warren/ Naomi dynamic. Does anyone know where she is and what she is doing now? Does she have any children?

  262. The motion is a delaying tactic on the part of FLDS. Gerry Goldstein knows better!!!
    Uh and by the way, there were 3 hispanics originally named to the grand jury in el Dorado. One moved out of the area, the other other was transfered to a new job. One was replaced with another hispanic.
    Goldstein needs to find out details before making motions!!

  263. details you say DD, Gerry’s working on his retirement fund just like Rod Parker is, all at the expense of the rank and file FLDS people.

  264. DD, isn’t Goldstein the same lawyer who inserted spurious photos of a tank and of a little boy being helped in the bathroom by a SWAT officer into another pleading?

    I hardly think he cares very much about the facts.

  265. I wouldn’t dispute that figure of $8K an hour, Boots. It seems perfectly plausible.

    Today I was wondering why the FLDS thinks their Gatling gun strategy vis-à-vis the UEP trust can work. If Wee Willie Winky and his pals have assets of X, their target certainly has assets of ‘X times some really, really big number.’ They will be broke long before the trust is.

  266. $8,000 / hr.?
    They can’t maintain this level of spending for too long.

  267. Yeah, sooner or later it adds up to real money.

  268. Miele,

    I’m not sure why but I have failed several times to comment on posts you’ve made that I find interesting. I thought it was interesting that you made a Civil War analogy in the past, too.

    Yes, he is the Piccaretta of the SOUTH! That just means, like Picaretta, he’s thinking in terms of billable hours not in right or wrong.

  269. Rebeckah,
    If you are here, could you explain who Judith is, and why she accused you of being a cult member ??
    I don’t get it.

  270. Well, thanks, Boots. Re: the Civil War, I was responding to one of the moonbats that was honking on claiming polygamy was so civilized. In the 1863 the same men who willingly marched into cannon, called polygamy one of the twin relics of barbarism.

    $8000 an hour? Dang, that’s a lot of money.

  271. Anonymous 6:45,

    Naomie Jessop Jeffs does not have any children. I have no idea where she is keeping herself these days, but a check of visitors that Warren has had in Mohave County might turn up her name.

  272. I can’t speak to their discussion, but Judith is a personal friend of mine (as is Rebeckah).

  273. apparently someone on the coram blog said Rebeckah exhibited cult mentality … I don’t get it.

  274. I don’t know who Judith is. I imagine she is reacting to my (admittedly antagonistic) response to her assertion that Blues is childish. I don’t understand why she thinks I exibit cult mentality either. Perhaps to her some of my Asperger’s traits appear like someone who is in a cult. I know I do have to consciously work against black and white thinking, so perhaps that is what she perceives. Perhaps she will clarify, perhaps she won’t. If she does clarify, I’ll adress it then. If not, well, it isn’t the first time I’ve upset someone and it won’t be the last. I try to learn from it when I’m offensive, but I can’t if someone isn’t clear and specific about what was offensive. If she wants to email me I have offered that option to anyone I’ve offended. My blog profile on Google is enabled and has an email link.

  275. Nicely said, Rebeckah. People who don’t have Apserger’s bump into each other in an unpleasant way now and then also. I think you generally communicate very well.

  276. Hey you guys did you see this? This gives me great pleasure sharing this: http://myeldorado.net/ Randy and Kathy even have a picture. lol They have snow.

    I wonder if those guys are a bit nervous? Do you think?

  277. Snow in central Texas, and we have none. (We often don’t this early in the season, but it hardly seems fair.)

  278. Rebeckah,
    Your communication was clear, and was unoffensive. You do communicate well, and her statement about you having a “cult mentality” didn’t make sense to me. That is why I asked.

  279. Remember our discussion of Susannah Barlow being forced to remarry an Allred when her husband (and brother of WSJ) was kicked out? Well her son with said exed husband is pictured at this link, http://myeldorado.net/ he’s the one in the black jacket to the far right as you look at the picture. I can’t wait to see if the fact that his name used to be Jeffs and is now supposed to be Barlow is brought up so that the jury will have a picture of how WSJ totally and completely dominates this group even to the point of making them play musical fathers/husbands.

  280. The Eldorado Success does a magnificent job covering the trials.
    I only wish that the major newspapers did half as good a job covering the trials as the Success does. Most people outside of Texas have no clue what is going on, due to inadequate press coverage.

  281. ProudTexan I can actually see the ” I was part of a cult and I didn’t/couldn’t see the light of day because I was being controlled” so don’t hate me hate Warren defense being used.

    They can only blame Warren for so much. And then they will have to look elsewhere. The religion? Are they going to deny their loyalty to their religion? Can’t see it happening. And over night?
    No way.

    Are they going straight for the vein and say that it is part of the Religion and promise that they will stop? People in Texas are too smart to fall for the “It’s my party and I’ll cry if I want to.” attitude.

    When those in mobs and gangs can’t use fear and mind control as an excuse to defend breaking the law people using Religion shouldn’t be given a pass either. jmo

  282. And in his world, the warrants MUST be invalid because otherwise he would have to admit that the FLDS leadership regularly marries under aged girls.
    ======================================================
    I freely admit that until 2004 that the FLDS leadership regularly married women under the age of 18. That has never been my argument. Under your argument police are free to search for crimes at any citizens home and if they find evidence it validates the search, if they find none, well we all sleep better at night knowing there is no crimes being committed at that particular house.

  283. The Aztecs practiced human sacrifice. Indian women used to jump on their husband’s funeral pyres, called sutee, which is recommended by the Hindu Laws of Manu. There is a limit to acceptance of a group’s religious practices in this country. You cannot have chaos.

  284. He can’t allow them to be human beings with human feelings because then he’s have to face how the religion he embraces so fervently harms them.
    ==============================================
    Sorry Rebeckah but I’m unwilling to tell adult women who are happy in a polygamous relationship that they are secretly unhappy but just don’t know any better.

  285. There is a limit to acceptance of a group’s religious practices in this country. You cannot have chaos.
    =========================================================
    I agree surprisingly enough. Human sacrifice harms another human being. Indian women committing suttee harms not only herself but the bystanders who saw a rather horrible death. Men and women having consensual sex with the knowledge and consent of their partners with numerous men and women harms no one.

  286. Well Ali I am glad we agree on something.

  287. Polygamy is rarely ever about two consenting adults.

    “For me, he was a very mean person. I didn’t know him while we lived in the same house for 13 years and he had to ask me my name every time he saw me.

    “In fact, the question he would ask is, ‘What is your name and who is your mother?’ and that was the only way he could identify that I was his child,” Hammon said.

    Three of her older sisters were placed in marriages before they finished high school, including one who was 16 when she married a 62-year-old man, Hammon said. She recalled that one sister had two days notice before her wedding.

    Hammon said girls in the compound were prepared for a similar destiny all their lives, but she knew from a young age she didn’t want any part of it.

    “It was like marching to the guillotine because I saw pictures of my mother before she got married and she was just so confident.

    “Her posture was just excellent and she had a beautiful face and smile… and then I watched her deteriorate after she got married and I watched her go through so much emotional pain and that was what I felt was in store for me if I got married,” she said.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy704.html

  288. She didn’t give up.

    Why does she stay in Manti, where she has accumulated so many bad memories? “Heck I love it here. Not bullet holes in my house nor facing Jim Harmston on Main Street will drive me away. The worse they can do is blow me away.”

    As a concession to all her friends and advisors who see the bullet holes in her house as a serious threat, she keeps a shotgun ready. “Being cowardly is more disgusting to me than death,” she says. “And it is surprising how one person with a spine can stand up to dozens without a backbone.”

    Kaziah says she has finally wised up and recognized that she has a brain. “All of my adult life, going to the Celestial Kingdom has been the golden carrot that motivated me. I actually felt internal pressure to carry on the tradition of polygamy. Fear holds you. In cult living the very moment you reject any revelation, you go to the devil.”

    This is her final rejection of polygamy, she says quietly. “Polygamy is a stench in my nostrils. At last I have the strength not to succumb to the things I don’t believe in greed, lusting, adultery and how to break all 10 commandments and still stay righteous in the eyes of God. “I have never lost my faith in God, or his power to take care of me,” she says. “I don’t hate, and I believe that God believes women are precious and have dignity.”

    http://thehopeorg.org/kaziah.html

  289. Walton,
    I agree with you. I have never seen two adults consenting to polygamy.
    When I have seen it, it was always a man hiding the second spouse, or
    coercing wife # 1 to accept it, and the woman was always told that
    I have never met a wife # 1 who accepted or approved of it.
    Every “first wife” I ever met was depressed about it, consistent with the published medical literature on the topic.
    Some polygamous wives can put on a brave face, and try to make it look like it is working for them in public, but what they say in private is another thing entirely. That is my experience.

  290. Continuation of the Above :
    … and the woman was always told that she must accept his second spouse because their religion required her to do so…

  291. The Eldorado Success does a magnificent job covering the trials.
    I only wish that the major newspapers did half as good a job covering the trials as the Success does. Most people outside of Texas have no clue what is going on, due to inadequate press coverage.

    ………………..

    Raymond’s conviction was reported in the Seattle Times, although it was off a newswire.

    I don’t know if there is a fundamentalist polygamous presence in Washington State. They would have difficutly “bleeding the beast,” since our Aid to Dependent Children laws are quite strict: a single mother must name the father of her child in order to collect welfare, and then the state goes after the father.

  292. “In fact, the question he would ask is, ‘What is your name and who is your mother?’ and that was the only way he could identify that I was his child,” Hammon said.

    …………………

    Is this the beautiful dark haired young woman who was featured in “Damned to Heaven?” The one who showed the picture of her father to her mother while she related how he stuck his hand up her dress when she was a little girl?

    The pain of both those women was palpable. How can anybody need more proof of how corrupt the FLDS is. This is not how God wants life to be for women and children; no way, no how.

  293. When I have seen it, it was always a man hiding the second spouse,
    ==========================================================
    Now that should be prosecuted especially if the guy is legally married to the second spouse!

  294. Ali
    the man married wife # 2 in a foreign country and attempted to bring her home to wife # 1. Wife # 1 did not attend the wedding to wife # 2.

  295. When I have seen it, it was always a man hiding the second spouse,
    ==========================================================
    Now that should be prosecuted especially if the guy is legally married to the second spouse!

    …………….

    There is no way to be “legally married” to a second spouse unless the first spouse is deceased or divorced.

  296. a single mother must name the father of her child in order to collect welfare, and then the state goes after the father.
    ========================================================
    Not really. Washington state has a few good cause “clauses” such as if she or the children are in danger of domestic violence or if she is unable to identify the father.

  297. What these men did was marry # 2 in a foreign Islamic country, and then brought # 2 home to # 1. The men either did not tell their first wife about the second marriage at all, or told the first wife AFTER the marriage to # 2, because consent of wife # 1 is not necessary in Islam.
    Luckily, since polygamy is illegal in the US, if wife # 1 wants out,
    she can threaten her husband with a bigamy charge, and walk out of the marriage easily, getting everything she wants in a divorce action.

  298. There is no way to be “legally married” to a second spouse unless the first spouse is deceased or divorced.
    =====================================================
    Which is true but I’m talking about the obtaining of a legal document in any state that shows the two people are legally married when in fact they are not because one or the other is already married.

    Ali
    the man married wife # 2 in a foreign country and attempted to bring her home to wife # 1. Wife # 1 did not attend the wedding to wife # 2.
    ======================================================
    If it was done without her knowledge and consent then yes a victim was created.

  299. One of the Kingstons has over 100 kids. One man with over 100 kids.

    He couldn’t name his kids in court. How do you suppose he supports them?

    Rulon Allred had how many kids?
    Owen Allred?

    Winston Blackmore?

    Anon E Mouse- yes that was the same Sarah Hammond. And when it finally dawned on her mother the pain that has been passed on down I could see the pain she too was feeling. To the bone.

    😦

  300. Ali,
    Yes, a victim was created – this practice of a Muslim man marrying a second wife in an Islamic country is very common all over the East coast and Midwest. Male immigrants from the Ivory Coast are marrying second wives over the phone, and
    bringing these second wives to the US, representing that the second wives are their cousins, which is often true. Please note that these men do have conjugal relations with these second wives, and there are often children involved.
    The men do not get consent from wife # 1 for the marriage, and these men often put wife # 2 on welfare, as they are not legally married. Bleeding the beast, some would say, Islamic style. It has been described in the NY Times, and on NPR.

  301. I’ve visited Honey Dawn’s site a couple times thinking it would lend insight or enlightenment of other opinion. Not.

    The more of her postings I read, the more disgusted I am. The ignorance is appauling. Am I alone in this?

  302. Walton,
    No doubt the government supports most of these children. I doubt these men are able to support all of these children.
    There are medical studies which indicate that polygamy has a negative effect on the children involved as well. How could one man possible be an adequate parent to that many children?

  303. Jon Dana,
    Why not convey your feelings to her directly ?

  304. Welfare rules vary by state.

  305. Alin said ” Under your argument police are free to search for crimes at any citizens home and if they find evidence it validates the search, if they find none, well we all sleep better at night knowing there is no crimes being committed at that particular house.”

    You are putting words into my mouth. I never said anything of the sort. I think the warrants are valid; I think there was sufficient reason to believe that a young woman was in danger and I don’t think the police have a responsibility to 1) believe a parolee’s word about his whereabouts or 2) trace every call for help to determine exactly where it is coming from. So, I believe that LE acted in good faith and had not only one but several good warrants and that the FLDS leadership at YFZ are criminals in multiple ways.

  306. Here is a link to the NPR story which documents the problem of Muslim polygamy in the US, including the lack of consent issue ….

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90857818

  307. Jon Dana, most of us believe that Honey Dawn is spoofing us. But talking to her directly is fun, so go for it.

  308. Alinusara if a female child is given no sex education save a day or two warning before she’s in celestial wedlock, doesn’t her lack of foreknowledge of her sexual experience nullify your claim of mutual consent? Seems to me like somebody is about to be deflowered with out even being told about the ‘birds and the bees’.

    Your comment is simply bigamy propaganda placed into your blinded light.

  309. cajim,
    You raise an interesting and valid point.

  310. We’re not talking about a dude and two ladies all in their 30’s here.

    We’re talking about systemic child abuse.

    Buy a CLUE AL.

  311. “I don’t think the police have a responsibility to 1) believe a parolee’s word about his whereabouts”

    The police asked him to go to the police station they named (about a 30 minute drive from his home, if I remember correctly) and have them call the Rangers and confirm his identity and whereabouts. Barlow did not chose to do so.

    “or 2) trace every call for help to determine exactly where it is coming from.”

    Especially since that rarely ever happens unless there’s a serious reason to need to triangulate the victim’s location, like the victim is in a wilderness area or the victim is unsure of their location in a residential area. If the police believe they have a pretty good idea on the victim’s location they will generally just do a search — like they did with the YFZ ranch.

  312. Al regularly claims, as do many of the other members of this group — including women — that the women are happy and it is consensual. However, antidepressant use, mental institution visits (both voluntary and involuntary) and the testimony of apostates say otherwise. Perhaps, if the FLDS wish us to actually fall for their line, they’ll commission some bright young psychiatric PHD hopeful to study their joyful community and settle the issue once and for all. I don’t see that happening, though, because Al knows, just as all the other men involved, that the women are NOT happy. They can talk about it all they like, they are simply in denial because they think it is the godly way to be. I have never spoken to a woman yet who is honest about polygamy who doesn’t mention the extra tension, jealousy and anxiety over limited resources, including the man’s time and affection. The truth is that polygygny is hurtful and harmful to everyone concerned.

  313. Rebeckah,
    There are a few books written by PhDs on fundamentalist Mormon culture.
    The pre – eminent authority on the topic is Dr Janet Bennion, a cultural anthropologist, not a psychiatrist or psychologist.
    The fundamentalist Mormon groups will not allow a psychiatrist or psychologist access to perform objective medical research.
    She was allowed to live in two fundamentalist groups, one in Mexico, and the other in Utah and Montana. I think she wrote three books on the topic, two of which I own, namely “Desert Patriarchy” and “Women of Principle”
    Of note is the fact that she was only allowed to live with and interact with people who were chosen by the leader of the group for her to speak to, and she was not allowed to administer anonymous surveys or questionnaires by the group leaders. Apparently the group leaders and husbands wanted to supervise the women in their responses to the surveys.
    She reports that the rate of dissolution of the arranged marriages was over 33% according to the group leader.
    She is of the opinion that women in fundamentalist Mormon culture are not truly free to leave or control their own destinies.
    She also states that fundamentalist Mormon culture is highly associated with abuse and incest.
    Her books cannot be said to represent true medical research because :
    1) she lived with her research subjects – this is inconsistent with ethical principles of human subjects research.
    2) no anonymous surveys,questionnaires or standardized psychological tests were permitted, for example, the Beck Depression Inventory, Marital Satisfaction Inventories, etc.
    3) no control group of a similar demographic living in the area is described in her studies.

    There is data out there, but it is limited to observational studies.

  314. Rebeckah,
    with regard to the use of antidepressant medication, I read somewhere that 33% of the women at YFZ were on antidepressants. If this is true, that is a figure which is 5 x higher than the rate of use of such drugs in the general population in the US.
    This is consistent with the findings of Alean Al – Krenawi, who described the incidence of depression of polygamous women living in Israel to be 5 X higher than it is in monogamous women of a similar demographic in Israel.

  315. Jon Dana– When I first read Honey Dawn’s site, several months ago, I thought she was maybe a VERY young 15/16yr old girl…as the writing tends to reflect. It’s way to sugary for my teeth. Then, I thought I’d read somewhere, that she was older [30-40’s] and then the blog reallly looked like a major case of arrested development. I look there, maybe, once or twice a month, but it just stikes me as a put up job.. I keep waiting for someone to yell..”GOTCHA!” I can’t take it seriously. But, I see duane found a new place to suck up…so I’m glad he is there and not here.

  316. Yes, Duane really enjoys blogging with Honey Dawn.
    They have truly hit it off.

  317. Study Finds Utah Leads Nation in Antidepressant Use
    Medicine: Some point to the pressures of Mormonism, especially for women, to explain the surprising findings.

    By JULIE CART, Times Staff Writer

    http://www.usu.edu/psycho101/lectures/chp2methods/study.html

  318. Thanks Boots, I remember this article – and there is another article which reported on the use of antidepressants in the female FLDS community specifically.
    In that article, the use of antidepressants was 33%. I just need to find that article.

  319. Boy, they were really proud to drop to #11 here.

    Utah drops No. 1 ranking — as consumer-fraud capital
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20080214/ai_n21416754/

    I’m sure it’s just because all those people are so well educated to report fraud more than people in other states. I’m sure it doesn’t ::gasp:: mean there is more actual fraud.

  320. I found one article which cites the 33% statistic. Here is the link :
    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/features/polygamy/story.html?id=f4ee01d3-f79d-4d25-a08e-69ff02c117fc&k=6251&p=1

  321. CW,

    That seems to have been Carolyn Jessop’s own observation, which would make it anecdotal. I’d really like to know exactly which national study the article I pasted the link to above came from originally. Funny thing, when I re-read the article it never actually identified the study.

    Since it was a tabulation of perscription orders, if you could find the study, couldn’t you, theoretically determine if the rate for Southern Utah and Northern Arizona were higher?

    We know the FLDS regularly uses confinement in mental institutions to control women who aren’t “keeping sweet”. If you could show that the rates for medication were higher, couldn’t you argue that they are drugging women to keep them active participants in their crimes?

    Either that or show that polygamy is just dang depressing to begin with I suppose, like the Israeli study also showed.

    Of course at that point I have to ask if depression is a true psychiatric disorder, which should be treated, or just a sad way to live easily remedied by behavior modification, ie quit breakin’ the dang law and you’ll be much happier.

    People here focus on the FLDS but the Centennial Park group [in the same Zip Code as Colorado City] participates in just as much welfare fraud as the FLDS, and I’ll bet their women are popping Prozac like M&M’s, too.

    BTW, if the FLDS’ Dr. Barlow is convicted and sent away, how will they get all these prescriptions filled unnoticed then?

  322. Dr. Barlow seems to be well on his way to receiving only a wrist slap and no medical peer discipline and only paying a fine for his missed reporting. Should he elect to just pay the fine it will probably be tied to not admitting to any wrong doing. For the FLDS to control and house a medical clinic on their own enclave(s) is an open invitation for more frauds and corruptions of proper medical/legal practices.

    This has to be one of the areas where greater enforcement and third-party oversight has to be enforced or no real resolution to these problems is a corrective outcome. Faulty, faked and missing documentation needs to be ended, as well, i.e. Birth Certificates, death certificates, host state IDs, Driver’s Licenses, Federal Passports, etc.

  323. Complaints have been filed against Dr. Barlow’s medical license. The Texas board of medical examiners, however, will not make any decision until after his criminal trial. At least, that’s my understanding from researching it.

  324. Failure to report is a Class B misdemeanor in Texas and punishable by up to 180 days in jail and/or a fine up to $2,000.

    If there is a guilty verdict or plea on all three counts, the worst case scenario for Dr. Barlow with regard to imprisonment and fines would be 540 days and $6,000 in fines (plus all of the various court fees).

    Not likely that the maximums would be applied except in the fines or that any jail time (if any) would be run consecutively rather than concurrently.

  325. Yes Boots, it is an anecdotal report for the 33% percent of female FLDS on antidepressants, and they are quoting Carolyn in the article. Carolyn is reporting on what she observed, and it is not a medical study. I have no reason to disbelieve her however. Remember that Janet Bennion is the only one who has been allowed to live in the fundamentalist Mormon community (not FLDS specifically) and report on what she has seen, and she is not a mental health professional, so her reports are what is known as observational studies. Her contact with the community was arranged and controlled by hierarchy.

    The Utah antidepressant study is based on analysis of prescription data for the entire state of Utah. 70% of the occupants of the state are Mormons, and commentators think it is because of excessive demands placed on LDS women in general. Certainly some of the prescriptions for antidepressants in Utah could be for purposes of “keeping sweet”, as you would say, but we don’t know what that percentage is.
    Al Krenawi has already described a higher use of anti depressants among women living in polygamy in Israel, so I have no doubt that part of the antidepressant use in Utah is among polygamous women being chemically induced to “keep sweet”

    CaJim,
    As soon as a physician is charged with a crime of any kind, the state board of professional conduct is notified. They may not choose to complete their investigation until he undergoes trial, as they are awaiting evidence presented at trial.
    I would certainly like to see outside objective non affiliated medical personnel responsible for delivering care there, just as you do.

  326. “I have no reason to disbelieve her however.”

    Oh, neither do I. In fact, if she is “off” my gut leans toward her underestimating the use of psychotropic meds, not over estimating it.

    As a matter of fact, we have some reason to believe they might be giving it to the children regularly as well, only not with a prescription…

  327. Not good. Some outside oversight is necessary, but I am nearly certain that it will not be implemented.

  328. Jon Dana, most of us believe that Honey Dawn is spoofing us. But talking to her directly is fun, so go for it.

    …………………………….

    The funny bit about which sister wife is responsible for hubby’s clean shirts sounded familiar to me . . . did I read something similar by Irene Spencer or Dorothy Solomon?

  329. We’re not talking about a dude and two ladies all in their 30’s here.

    We’re talking about systemic child abuse.

    Buy a CLUE AL.
    ………………….

    The old guys gotta nail ’em when they’re young and get ’em knocked up right away, before the girls find out it’s possible for a woman to have a life NOT dedicated to pumping out babies and securing a planet for hubby to rule over.

  330. with regard to the use of antidepressant medication, I read somewhere that 33% of the women at YFZ were on antidepressants.

    ………………………

    That might explain why, when you watch their TV interviews, it’s like watching “The Stepford Wives.”

    And when you think about it, “The Stepford Wives” is a cultural icon representing misogynist fantasies about how women should behave; like submissive robots, complete with prairie dresses.

    Remember, this is considered a HORROR movie.

  331. http://top-10-list.org/2009/12/06/ten-fraudulent-religious-leaders/

  332. http://top-10-list.org/2009/12/06/ten-fraudulent-religious-leaders/

    A good lesson in: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  333. Interesting list, FLDS Texas. Although they used fraud as their criteria, it seems most of them were sexual deviants too.

    With respect to what drug these women take, whatever it is it makes them talk like a cross between a Chatty Cathy and Jackie Kennedy. ‘We want our children!” They ought to pull it off the market.

  334. Alinusara if a female child is given no sex education save a day or two warning before she’s in celestial wedlock, doesn’t her lack of foreknowledge of her sexual experience nullify your claim of mutual consent? Seems to me like somebody is about to be deflowered with out even being told about the ‘birds and the bees’.
    ====================================================
    Apples and oranges. I’ve always argued that if you have a sexual relationship with someone under the legal age of consent you should be prosecuted as long as the investigation and prosecution doesn’t violate the constitutional rights of the victim.

  335. We’re not talking about a dude and two ladies all in their 30’s here.

    We’re talking about systemic child abuse.

    Buy a CLUE AL.
    ============================================
    See above.

  336. “…you should be prosecuted as long as the investigation and prosecution doesn’t violate the constitutional rights of the victim”.

    You mean the state of Texas, Al? It is our laws which have been broken. We are the victims. I don’t see that our rights have been violated in any way by the YFZ investigation or the prosecution of the abusers.

  337. Nope Boots your rights wasn’t violated that I know of.

  338. Nobody’s rights were violated that >I< know of except by the FLDS dozen.

  339. Yep, Betty, the FLDS are the only ones violating people’s rights.

  340. The parties who have been wronged are the underage girls who were “married,” some of them against their will. One could also say that the citizens of Texas have also been wronged, as they must foot the bill to bring the perpetrators to justice.

  341. Apparently physicians in Ghana are warning the government : Polygamy is leading to the spread of HIV in Africa. See the tiny URL link
    http://bit.ly/7ErBuP

  342. “Apples and oranges. I’ve always argued that if you have a sexual relationship with someone under the legal age of consent you should be prosecuted as long as the investigation and prosecution doesn’t violate the constitutional rights of the victim.”

    I am unaware of any “victim” rights that have been violated; not at the YFZ and not elsewhere. There is no such thing as a victim “right” to not have their abuse investigated and prosecuted.

  343. Here is an interesting article on the degeneration of some of Martin Luther’s protestants into messianic christian communism and polygamy in the 1540s….
    The driving force was the idea that revelation was contained to the bible which lead to self proclaimed revelation leading to cult leaders….

    Some things don’t change!!!

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard210.html

  344. Thanks for that –
    It appears that we are having an educational evening – a “journal club” if you will –
    Here is a link to a study done in the Midwest on the Effect of Polygyny on Children of Hmong Polygynist Refugees in the US. It
    appears that none of the female children of these polygynous
    relationships would choose polygyny for themselves – all of them described polygyny as wrong, unfair, and problematic.

    http://www.uwstout.edu/lib/thesis/2003/2003yangm.pdf

  345. Another article on why educational outcomes of children raised in polygyny are poorer than in monogamous families in Africa :

    http://www.sociology.ohio-state.edu/cub/family%20structure%20parental%20perceptions%20and%20child%20labor.pdf

  346. It appears that the world’s foremost expert on the effect of polygamy on women and children is in Canada, on a visiting professorship.
    Interesting.

    http://fsw.ucalgary.ca/node/1111

  347. Wow, CW, I’m only halfway through the thesis paper and it’s sooooooo depressing. I didn’t realize youth from polygynous relationships were more prone to paranoid ideation. It explains a few things to me. Still reading….

  348. Rebeckah –
    Children of polygynous relationships also have a higher incidence of substance abuse as well.
    I note that the government of British Columbia is considering the decriminalization of polygamy soon.
    Perhaps they would want to invite testimony from Alean Al – Krenawi, who is in neighboring Calgary, to present his powerful research on the effect on polygyny on children.

  349. this is a link to a study which describes the reason for increased violence observed among women in Uganda : Polygamy

    http://jura.ku.dk/pdf/forskning/afd3/aarbog-92/lillian.pdf/

  350. I am unaware of any “victim” rights that have been violated; not at the YFZ and not elsewhere. There is no such thing as a victim “right” to not have their abuse investigated and prosecuted.
    ===============================================
    Hence the controversy. The 3rd CoA and TxScotus already made one ruling; I anticipate more rulings.

  351. “Hence the controversy. The 3rd CoA and TxScotus already made one ruling; I anticipate more rulings.”

    No controversy there, Al, they ruled that children who are not proven to be in immenent danger of harm have a right to be with their parents during the investigation. It was a good ruling. Unfortunately CPS then folded and returned ALL children, regardless of harm or proof of abuse. I am deeply saddened by CPS. First they overreached in taking even infants and then they failed the girls in real danger of sexual abuse. Texas CPS earned the displeasure of many parents by their careless moves. I sincerely hope the people of Texas are clamoring to their government for changes.

  352. Well, Rebeckah I would like to note that at least 22 children in Raymond Jessop’s family were returned to the home of a now convicted sexual assault felon. In fact by the end of this gamut of Grand Jury indictments it would seem that over 100+ children originally removed by the CPS were actually ordered to be returned to felon’s families. Where not only underage celestial non-wedlocks existed, underage teenage mothers were present, reassignment of ‘Child Brides’ to alternate husbands had transpired and not one eye-witness account was proffered from any adults or children witnessing these felony(s).

    So is this the healthy, nurturing home-life environment that everyone expects children to be raised within? Where illegal underage females are encouraged and supported to marry into bigamy, enter underage motherhood, submit to first degree sexual assault and remain silent and an abettor when Law Enforcement officials are investigating. Seems to me to be more like a model Mafioso or Gypsy family counter-cultural model, prone to rearing future perpetrators, felons and deviant citizens. Then, to compound the organized illegal behaviors, you find on-site birthing clinic and schooling to preserve/support continued sect delinquency(s).

  353. “In fact by the end of this gamut of Grand Jury indictments it would seem that over 100+ children originally removed by the CPS were actually ordered to be returned to felon’s families.”

    Well, in all fairness they weren’t felons at the time. Looks like they all will be by this time next year, though.

    “Then, to compound the organized illegal behaviors, you find on-site birthing clinic and schooling to preserve/support continued sect delinquency(s).”

    And to compound matters, the birthing clinic is not licensed or being run according to Texas State regulation. (i.e. No licensed obstrician is supervising the non-licensed “midwives”.) But women are so precious to the FLDS that they don’t care if they die in childbirth. Apparently the same goes for children.

  354. Seems to me to be more like a model Mafioso

    ……………………….

    Except Tony Soprano wouldn’t lay down like a doormat if he was told to hand over his wife and children to another man.

  355. Well, Rebeckah I would like to note that at least 22 children in Raymond Jessop’s family were returned to the home of a now convicted sexual assault felon. In fact by the end of this gamut of Grand Jury indictments it would seem that over 100+ children originally removed by the CPS were actually ordered to be returned to felon’s families.
    ==================================================
    You do realize he had a restraining order don’t you and if he had violated it he would have risked returning to jail?

  356. And to compound matters, the birthing clinic is not licensed or being run according to Texas State regulation. (i.e. No licensed obstrician is supervising the non-licensed “midwives”.)
    ====================================================
    I thought you only needed a board certified doctor? I admit to a certain curiosity if you can show me please.

  357. Alin you note that Raymond was under a restraining order and 10 of the 22 children were step children assigned to his household because of an FLDS Church reassignment. Interesting detail that a now convicted sexual assault felon had 10 children living with him when he was indicted by the Grand Jury, yet the emphasis is placed on criticizing the claimed over reach by the CPS/CASA officials and nothing is said about Raymond Jessop having these children under his control as a father. Which transpired first, the sexual assault within this condoning family unit or the YFZ removal?

  358. Geez Alinusara GO read the dictations!!!

    There you will find, that Warren Jeffs didn’t want DR BARLOW delievering babies! Aunt Sally was in charge of that, and Warren chewed her OUT, because of the young girl who went for to many hours in labor, and consulted with Dr Barlow.

  359. See the above : this is a violation of standards of care in every state regarding supervision of nurse midwives.

  360. amd Sally does not have a license to practice as a nurse or nurse midwife either !

  361. “I thought you only needed a board certified doctor? I admit to a certain curiosity if you can show me please.”

    You know, you might be right. I don’t know if it is a doctor of any stripe or an ob/gyn specifically. I’ll see what I can find out. Frankly, it SHOULD be an ob/gyn since a podiatrist or a psychiatrist is hardly likely to be well versed in childbirth issues that come up rarely but need a doctor to resolve, but that is only my opinion, of course.

  362. a link to the practice guidelines for birthing centers has already been posted.

  363. If Sally is not a RN, she could still practice as a mid-wife in Texas. Midwifery, or Parteras are common in Texas. However, I don’t know if Sally holds a license.

    http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/midwife/mw_apply.shtm

  364. Just got an email update from the Eldorado Success. Judge Walther is back on the bench. He says he doesn’t know if the defense withdrew the motion to recuse or if it was denied.

    They’re hearing now re: the motion to quash the indictments.

    Big hat tip to Randy Mankin

  365. Miele,
    She does not hold any kind of a license. This has already been investigated.

  366. I think the motion to quash will fail as well.

  367. Miele

    Hat tip to you too! THANKS for passing the word.

    Snow those suckers in, Judge Walther!

  368. The Success updates that Judge Walther said she referred the motion to disqualify her to the Presiding Judge over the Seventh Judicial District, Judge Rucker.

    He goes on to say that Judge Walther told the courtroom she would not be a witness for the defense or prosecution, then began the hearing on the motion to quash. (I have no idea what that means.)

    30 minute recess.

    HT to Randy Mankin

  369. thanks Miele for the update.

  370. Stamp, Goldy as Blues calls him, probably want to go to Aspen.

  371. LOL stamp

  372. To any Huge McNuts bobbing about out there in “Ice Age” land, it looks like Blues hit this bullseye.

    BINGO

    He Passes GO

    He Collects $200

    Start the TRIAL

    —————–

    “YFZ Trial Update

    3:00 p.m. Monday, December 7, 2009

    Judge Walther remains on the bench

    Judge Barbara Walther told defense attorneys that she referred their motion to disqualify her to Judge Dean Rucker, who serves as the Presiding Judge over the Seventh Judicial District of Texas. She said that Judge Rucker notified her this morning that he would not appoint another judge to hear the motion to quash the grand jury indictments of 10 YFZ defendants.

    Judge Walther then told the courtroom that she would not be a witness for the defense or prosecution and she began the hearing on the motion to quash.

    The defense is asking that the indictments be quashed, alleging that the grand jury did not include enough Hispanic members.”

    http://www.myeldorado.net/

  373. Yeah I just read that Stamp,, guess it will take awhile to hear all the stuff they have to hear first.grrr

  374. Wonder how late the court will go today? I dont know about El dorado, but the weather here sucks today, very cold and drizzly.

  375. So TexasBluesMan was correct in how it would play out and Huge Ego McBryde was wrong. I would bet on TBM over HEM any day of the week.

  376. Huge Ego is wrong once again.

  377. It seems a new religion has started – check out Honey Dawn’s blog

  378. Nor does he know the difference between hac and hoc.

  379. While Hugh spins his wheels over non issues, the Trials ramp up lickety split.

    Texas Justice waits for no nonsense, apparantly. Too bad Hugh wasnt on the FLDS legal team, he could argue hac vs hoc with Judge Walther – for 2 seconds!

  380. Isnt Hac a dry cough, and Hoc like a loogy? LOL

  381. Actually, it’s supposed to be written “hac” but pronounced (although HOW anyone knows how to pronounce a dead language is beyond me) “hoc”. Technically Hugh wasn’t wrong. Not that I’m defending the man, but I’m big on facts. 😀

  382. They’re still at it in walthers court

  383. FLDS TEXAS : Still at this late hour?

  384. does anyone know what is being discussed at this late hour?

  385. Oh to be a fly on that wall….taking copious notes,of course!

  386. i looked at the ijury notice and there’s a jury called in tom green county for dec 9. that would be wednesday. the way this hearing’s going makes me wonder if they will even start jury selection in schleicher county by then.

  387. cat – its the hearing on the motion to quash the indictments because the flds doesn’t think there was enough hispanics on the panel.

  388. If Schleicher County cannot panel a jury Keate trial will be transfered to Tom Green County where 300 jurors have been summoned, also.

    According to the Eldorado Success the jurors where mailed a questionare that should speed up the process for the state and defense.

  389. LOL @ Deputydog

    Yeah, Pharisee always hocs up crap.

  390. Motion to Quash was denied. Jury selection starts today in Eldorado at 10:00 am.

  391. Yeah!!!!

  392. There you will find, that Warren Jeffs didn’t want DR BARLOW delievering babies!
    ================================================
    Warren Jeffs was an idiot. I would figure why spend all that money to send him to medical school if you ain’t going to use him. That wasn’t the question however. The question was posed, did it have to be a board certified obstetrician.

  393. Update: Thanks Rebeckah. From what I read the mother was there so it wasn’t some outsider doing midwifery duties.

    Motion to quash denied! Not sure if it’s because of it’s timeliness or due to it having no merit. We will see in the next trial.

  394. Ali,
    Warren Jeffs should not have act to prevent a medical consultation when requested by the girl’s mother. WSJ clearly stated that he made this decision to prevent the young girl’s husband from conviction for impregnating an underage girl. No licensed medical personnel supervised the delivery in question for quite some time. The girl’s mother defied WSJ after several days.
    Look under the guidelines for a birthing center posted in a previous string. Supposedly they claim they are running a birthing center. Review the regulations and see for yourself.

  395. Yep, the FLDS were 0 for 2 yesterday.

    Gosanangelo article

  396. Ali,
    Warren Jeffs should not have act to prevent a medical consultation when requested by the girl’s mother.
    =====================================
    I said the guy was an idiot. How much more in agreement can I get? Apparently when the baby was born that clinic wasn’t in existence yet which is not really the argument. The argument was the law may not have been broken if the delivery of a baby was assisted by a family member.

  397. Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott has arrived in Eldorado for the Allan Keate trial. A very interesting development. (Reported by Randy Mankin, publisher of the Eldorado Success.)

  398. ….then we concur that WSJ is an idiot.
    to see the discussion on the matter of the delivery, see a previous string. I believe that someone said there was a departure from recognized standards of care.

  399. Yee Haw! Go Greg Go!

  400. Boots Raymond Merill Jessop was in the courtroom yesterday.

  401. http://conchovalleyhomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=58972

    FLDS CRIMINAL TRIALS TO PROCEED
    51ST DISTRICT JUDGE BARBARA WALTHER PRESIDED OVER A HEARING ON A “MOTION TO QUASH GRAND JURY INDICTMENTS” IN THE F-L-D-S CRIMINAL CASES. DEFENDANTS SCHEDULED FOR TRIAL OVER THE NEXT YEAR — WERE IN THE MEMORIAL BUILDING IN ELDORADO YESTERDAY– INCLUDING RAYMOND JESSOP WHO WAS CONVICTED OF CHILD SEXUAL ASSAULT LAST MONTH.

  402. hmmm, why would Raymond be in the courtroom?

  403. I’ve seen enough Domestic Violence cases that I am well aware of how important that the said offender is exactly where they say he is. Moving the offender from site to site takes away that sense of security not only for this victim but any other victim watching the story.

    All it takes is one phone call from an offender to the victim or someone close to the victim to shatter that feeling of security. I think it is BS.

    If they are going to sentence a guy to prison that send him off already and quit playing the games.

    This angers me.

  404. What is the defense stradegy, place a convicted rapist in the courtroom as a token or intimidation or what?

  405. deputydog I can’t see any reason that they would have him there. None!!

  406. How bad can it look if the guy is waltzing in and out of a courtroom with his Sunday suit on?

    What is he going to tell the others to cop a deal? Ach!! Whatever he would say in that courtroom could be said via a jailhouse phone. Or better yet a PRISON phone.

  407. Maybe he is going to testify for the state,, since Gregg Abbott the AG is there today?

  408. Well normally they don’t have a convicted Felon sitting in on another persons trial for no reason. Its just weird.

  409. The only ones that would be intimidated are the other victims that might or could testify knowing that offenders would be kept in jail.

    Seeing someone who is SUPPOSE to be in jail sitting in the courtroom laughing and smiling and giving “the look” is enough to upset anyone else out there that thought they might want out.

    It is wrong. Just wrong.

  410. Raymond Jessop was there YESTERDAY, during the motion to quash. He may have had a legal right to be there, since his conviction could have been overturned if the motion had prevailed. (Ron, Blues?)

  411. Cameras in a courtroom. And not just one. They should never close the doors to a courtroom.

  412. Maybe Connie, it just seems strange to me, were all the other indictied men in the courtroom? They weren’t mentioned in any of the articles

  413. TexasConnie Raymond Jessop could have sat in his cell and let the lawyers battle it out. Warren Jeffs hasn’t appeared for any of his other court proceedings.

  414. I agree — I don’t see a need for Raymond to be there; his presence is a legal question I don’t have an answer for. I’ve only seen one report that he was present. But the point is that he was there *yesterday* and not during a trial proceeding where he could have potentially intimidated any witnesses.

  415. As I recall the defense requested his presence? Why not have Warren present?

    Or a picture of him, they have plenty of those handy out at the ol YFZ.

  416. Oh I would make a small wager that Raymond told so and so to tell so and so something.

    A look, A smile a glare is sometimes all it takes.

    😦

  417. Walton, at this point, i doubt raymond has any choices, he is doing what he is told, just like all the members are. Maybe Big Willie had a hand it, who knows.

  418. This just bites!

  419. Raymond have choices? The courts ordered him to prison. He should be in a prison. Just as Warren should be in a prison. Just as Waymond Wyler should be in a prison.

    Remember Dale Barlow? He should have been on a sex offender registry some place and he wasn’t. His name didn’t appear until AFTER I mentioned it AFTER the raid. And let me tell you this is something I feel seriously about. I keep looking for all these yahoo’s to be on a sex offender registry.

    It is BS pure and simple.

  420. I’m really sorry that I brought up the hac and hoc. Once, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I studied three years of high school latin and one of college latin. TBM is correct – the answer is “it depends upon case”; therefor, one of them is correct and the other wrong depending upon the particular usage at the moment. The phrase itself escapes my memory, but I’m about 99% sure that it’s hoc. The really sad thing here is that Hugh made such a big deal about it and apparently still clings to what he thinks is a moment of triumph, because he commented on it a few days ago. (Yes, I looked. Hangs head in shame. Curiosity gets the better of me now and again.)

  421. I agree Walton, and trust I search the sex offender regiestry daily.

  422. Walton, I think you are right. I wonder how they do it.

  423. Thanks deputydog.

  424. I have no idea why Raymond is sitting at trial as well.

  425. Betty imo it starts at the top.

    I’ve seen a lot of weird things but I found out years ago that a person just has to have some faith in what they believe in. I think we would crumble if we didn’t. Some days are harder than others but I truly believe that Texas is doing the right thing. I trust Doran without a doubt and I trust those TEXAS rangers. I trust Walther.

    I know those people are trying to do the right thing. If someone made the decision to have Jessop there it was someone higher than them. But why? Guess they don’t need my permission but the whole thing stinks. They sometimes think we are all idiots and that we aren’t watching. Well they are wrong. We are not idiots. And people are watching. Closely.

  426. If it makes you feel better Raymond Jessop is still in the custody of the state of Texas.

  427. I think Raymond is there as he is in the group which still faces trial.

    Remember, he still has a bigamy charge pending.

  428. Has Hugh invented any more theories why the FLDS will magically get off scot free?

    I dont think they have a snowballs chance in hoc.

    Or hac

    Or hades.

  429. “1. Either is correct, just as “res ipsa loquitur” or “res ipsa loquitor” are both correct, though different in case. You will find both usages in legal writing.

    Hugh has just latched on to something that he doesn’t understand to claim that he has found proof of something, although I’m not sure if it has to do with me or with lesbian police officers in Colorado Springs orchestrating the raid in Texas.”

    lol, Yes, I rather wondered myself. Of course the number of “lesbian dykes” in this case is growing to the point where there will be no “straight” women left in the USA by the time the trials are finished. STOP THE MADNESS!!! 😀

  430. “Update: Thanks Rebeckah. From what I read the mother was there so it wasn’t some outsider doing midwifery duties.”

    “The argument was the law may not have been broken if the delivery of a baby was assisted by a family member.”

    No, the argument is that the girl in question was denied a safe standard of care to protect the freedom of the man who broke the law to impregnate her. She should have been in the hospital from the word go given her age and the fact that her age increased the risks of difficulty in delivery. Ask any reputable ob/gyn and they’ll tell you the same. There is NO excuse for denying her a hospital and it is simply luck that she and the baby did not suffer permanent damage from their lack of care.

  431. Rebeckah: No, the argument is that the girl in question was denied a safe standard of care to protect the freedom of the man who broke the law to impregnate her. She should have been in the hospital from the word go given her age and the fact that her age increased the risks of difficulty in delivery. Ask any reputable ob/gyn and they’ll tell you the same. There is NO excuse for denying her a hospital and it is simply luck that she and the baby did not suffer permanent damage from their lack of care.

    …………………

    Flora Jessop wants to know why there is an abnormally high percentage of infant and child gravesites in the Short Creek cemetary.

    At this time, we can only guess why, but refusing medical care for girls and women in childbirth can certainly be a factor.

  432. Houston Chronicle just reported the Texas AG to question potential jurors

  433. The Texas AG has a record of suing everyone from insurance companies to music CD manufacturers to protect Texas’ citizens from being used and abused. I say its high time for our AG to sue the states of Arizona and Utah for the costs of the YFZ mess, since they have blatantly refused to uphold or defend the laws in their own states for the last 100 years, and now the responsibility has been shoved off onto us.

    My AG is in a wheelchair-and he can beat up your AG!

    Get’em Greg, get’em!

  434. Just my opinion you understand, but does it really matter what Hugh thinks? He is banned from this blog, so honestly, why discuss what he has to say? I don’t read his site, post on his site, he is way to out there and doesn’t present facts, or documented evidence about anything.

  435. 12:30 p.m. Tuesday, December 8, 2009
    Jurors submit questionnaires, told to return at 1:45 p.m.
    Prospective jurors in the Allan Keate case turned in an 18-question survey before being dismissed for lunch. Among the questions answered by jurors:
    1) How long have you lived in this county?
    2) have you ever served in any branch of the military? If yes, what branch? If yes, were you honorably discharged?
    3) Please list the organization to which you belong, in which you participate, or in which you have ever held any office. For example, service clubs, governmental bodies, unions, professional organizations, volunteer activities, educational groups, political parties or political groups.
    4) Have you ever served on a grand jury?
    5) Have you ever been called as a witness in court or given a statement in any legal proceeding?
    6) Do you have any close relatives or friends who are at the present time, or in the past employed by any state or federal agency, district attorney, lawyers, judges or employed in any job within the legal profession. If yes, list the names, relationships and occupations.
    7) Have you ever had any legal training?
    8) Have you or any close relatives or friends ever been the victim of a crime?
    9) Have you ever been a witness to a crime, or ever been questioned by a law enforcement officer about a crime?
    10) Have you ever filed a complaint against someone with law enforcement?
    11) have you or any close relatives or friends ever been charged with or accused of a crime?
    12) Have you or any close relatives or friends ever worked in law enforcem4ent, such as for a police department, county sheriff, highway patrol, or the attorney general?
    13) Have you or do you have any close relatives or friends who have ever worked as a probation officer, parole officer or in the prison system?
    14) Have you ever participated in “posting” or “replying” on any internet sites or “blogs”? If yes, please list the name or “handle” you post under and specifically which sites or “blogs” upon which you post or reply.
    15) Have you participated in any activity related to the care, transportation, feeding, housing, or clothing of any members of the FLDS?
    16) Have you had any contacts or dealings with any person you understood at the time or now understand to be living at the YFZ Ranch in Schleicher County, Texas?
    17) have you had any contacts or dealings with any person you understood at the time or now understand to be a member of the FLDS?
    18) Please state your religious preference. State which church or synagogue you attend, if any.

    El Dorado Success and it also says AG Gregg Abbott was in the courtroom as Jury Selection began, and has a picture of him arriving at the court house.

  436. Boots, your comments about Utah and Arizona taxpayers being responsible for the actions of individual people is insanely stupid. I ignored the first comment but you insist on pursing this line so I ask you, when is are the taxpayers in texas going to reimburse the rest of the nation for the 1 trillion dollar Iraq war that G.W Bush a Texas resident started? As you will notice my statement is as equally assine as your own.

    Polygamists in the west have a long history of knowing how to avoid law enforcement. Tom Green was the last polygamist in Utah that openly revealed his relationship on the talk shows and went to jail for 10 years after the Utah AG prosecuted him almost immediately. If you had read Elissa Wall’s book you would know that the FLDS go to extreme measures to avoid any contact with non-FLDS to avoid exposing themselves. Elissa grew up in SLC and had ZERO contact with other neighbors growing up, according to her book it wasn’t until she was nearly 11 that she even witnessed a non-FLDS family together. They home school, the avoid contact and up until recently they controlled law enforcement and all public officials in the short creek area on both the Utah and Arizona side.

    It’s no coincidence that short creek is on the border, it was how the FLDS avoided law enforcement, they would simply slip across the border to the other state when one of the states raided. Again if you had read Elissa’s book you would know that both Utah and Arizona made vigorous attempts to prosecute and break up the sect up until the early 60’s when the effort ended largely due to the ’53 Arizona raid which only brought the FLDS together into a tighter community. After the failure of the ’53 raid the states realized that because of the constitutional protections against search and self incrimination that they were simply wasting money trying to go after people without internal cooperation from members or blatent public admission of acts (see Tom Green above). Afterwards the states focused on prosecuting anyone they could get witnesses or evidence on, rather than expending resources trying to build cases with nothing to start with.

    The FLDS largely relocated to Texas to avoid the ongoing litigation that had been launched in Utah as a result of ejected members, “Lost Boys” and Elissa Wall coming forward with information. So if you want to blame Utah and Arizona for their law enforcement effort you should be blaming them for taking action, not taking no action as it was the direct result of the ongoing legal issues that the FLDS relocated to Texas. Without the legal issues I doubt Warren would have ever built the Texas compound.

  437. oh my.

    NoSpam Tom Green wasn’t and isn’t the only one who admitted to practicing polygamy.

  438. Personally I think the Federal Government dropped the ball here long ago, and the Feds have the ultimate responsibility for the delayed response which led to this.

  439. NoSpam considering the majority of Utah is Mormon, It’s pretty logical LDS wouldn’t go forward pushing for FLDS for breaking the law. AG Shurtleff waited forever to do anything about what he KNEW was happening in his state. For some strange reason people believe Carolyn and Elissa Wall were the first to ask for HELP from law enforcement. Not true, there are at least one hundred women who went to Law Enforcement, asking for help to get out of flds, when none came, They RAN! They shouldn’t of had to run! They should of been protected and men arrested.
    When Utah and Arizona finally got around to doing their job, they did a lousy job it. They didn’t get DNA from the women or children , they just used birth certificates, and as is usual in Utah, and Arizona, the men got their hands slapped, few served any jail time, and they were required to register on the sex offender list of their state.

  440. imo NoSpam the 1953 raid failed because there were those in political offices that lost their backbone and didn’t follow thru with what they said they were going to do. Much like it has been for the last 50 years or so.

    Giving offenders such light sentences to those that offended didn’t even give the laundry enough time to dry on the line.

    The women and children didn’t stand a chance. jmo

  441. Nospam

    Utah and Arizona LE have been largely impotent. But you do have a point, as it does seem that infighting and lawsuits may have been the real reason that Warren left.

    On top of that he wasnt a crick local, and he made everyones skin crawl.

    So he told them they were “Rejected by God” and WHOOSH! Off he goes in his chariot!

  442. Actually Govenor Pyle did his best, but he wasn’t reelected in 1953. You have a Mormon run state, and always have had.

  443. In situations like the twin cities Hildale, Utah / Colorado City, Arizona the Federal Government has the best shot at bringing justice, since any criminal activity seems to have been going on across state lines.

  444. Rebeckah ” Of course the number of “lesbian dykes” in this case is growing to the point where there will be no “straight” women left in the USA by the time the trials are finished. STOP THE MADNESS!!”

    Laughing my butt off. Hope my husband has his work phone on mute.

  445. DD,
    I’m more interested in Latin than in Hugh. I just looked it up and am now more confused than before. Inconclusive. Leaning towards hac. Both are used.

  446. My point is that both the Utah and the Arizona AG’s have statements right there in black and white on their own official websites declaring that they have no intentions of EVER enforcing the laws against POLYGAMY in their states.

    I think when a state’s top law enforcement officer has the cajones to state they refuse to prosecute a crime, they should pay for it when that unprosecuted crime starts seeping into other areas, where we DO CARE to enforce the law.

    It’s not outlandish. Utah and Arizona have now cost us MILLIONS and are now endangering our Muslim American sisters.

  447. Boots,

    Interesting idea. Should other states sue California for pot that turns up in Montana?

  448. The one thing about pot,, regardless where it turns up, its confiscated and after trial of those who brought it across state lines, its destroyed 🙂

  449. Wish we could do that to sexual assault, incest and other crimes, eh? Just have a big bon fire and make the evil go away.

  450. uh huh,, ditto!!!

  451. Boots, How about ‘BC Bud’ which is one of the strongest strains of marijuana and originates from British Columbia, Canada and has caused little ole Washington County, Utah to be flagged as a Federal close watch area of emphasis in marijuana interdiction because, low and behold, the bud seems to have infiltrated this sleepy little county. Gee, can’t hardly connect how Washington County, Utah would have any ties to British Columbia, Canada? Google ‘BC Bud’ the King of Hemp.

  452. http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-na-sect12may12,0,6456040.story

    From the article:

    “The fact that this has been going on all these years, and the fact that justice has not been there to protect women and children … from amazing civil rights violations — it is an embarrassment,” said Utah Atty. Gen. Mark Shurtleff.

    “I don’t want to indict the states of Utah and Arizona, but mea culpa — we are responsible.”

    ***********************

    Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) once visited the FLDS church in Hildale and played the organ. He later defended the group when asked about its alleged abuses.

    “All I can say is I know people in Hildale who are polygamists who are very fine people. You come and show me the evidence of children being abused there, and I’ll get involved,” he told local reporters. “Bring the evidence to me.”

    It doesn’t seem like Boots is too far off to me.

  453. Not at all…. Boots rang the bell. Although we know Texas wont recoup funds from Utah or Arizona for their illegal exports – it certainly serves as a wake up call to any other state whom might notice infiltrators from Deseret.

    Nip it in the “BUD”…………………..

  454. You must admit that Utah did try Warren Jeffs and got him off the street. AZ is dithering on even trying him. Texas has done a great job on raymond, hope they follow through in a similar manner for the rest of them

  455. Warren like many others are puppets on a string. jmo

    Utah didn’t do squat until they had to. jmo

  456. I would of had more respect for Shurtleff, had he not decided to start backpeddling as soon as he decided to run for the Senate. Of course he has now droppped out of that race.

  457. Well ex – guv Mike O Leavitt came right out and was quoted as saying he wasnt so sure about prosecuting polygamists over religious rights.

    Well, his ancestors are polygamists but he went ahead and gave the green light to so many.

    Did I say “GREEN”? Soon after, Tom Green was bragging up his deal on talk shows.

    OOPS

    Utah was embarrassed into action.

    But aint that sad.

  458. 14) Have you ever participated in “posting” or “replying” on any internet sites or “blogs”? If yes, please list the name or “handle” you post under and specifically which sites or “blogs” upon which you post or reply.

    They actually asked that in the jury questionaire ???

    OOPS, that would disqualify me I guess.

  459. Boots,
    My AG does his job. He wanted to sue the BCS didn’t he?

    Gee, which is more important?

    Protecting constituents from abuse or protecting football and his alma mater?

    Its all about setting priorities.

  460. Miele,

    Please don’t be criticizing my US Senator Orrin Hatch. He was the 2nd most vocal man in the fight for justice for the University of Utah and the BCS.

    He knows many nice people in Hildale and he cares deeply about football.

    Again, it’s all about priorities.

  461. Another Update from San Angelo News

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/08/jury-selection-begins-in-eldorado-for-trial-of/

  462. Anon

    How did the lawsuit go? Was Orrin able to get a Federal Task Force?

    OBTW there are some nice people in Hildale and then there are some not so nice people.

    One of the not-so-nice people got moved down to Kingman for awhile, then he will be riding the “LE Train’ across a few states where he done bad deeds.

    OOPS Orrin, ya missed one, but yer deputy tagged him!

  463. Stamp,
    I don’t know what happened after Shurtleff and Hatch ran whining to the US AG about the U of U and the BCS. The whole thing made me want to puke.

    My 2 comments were sarcastic.

    Politics in Utah are a joke!!!!

  464. Please don’t be criticizing my US Senator Orrin Hatch.

    I’m sorry, but anyone who believes that Joseph Smith transposed some golden plates is highly worthy of criticism.

  465. We just learned that Barbara Jessop died of a stroke today.

  466. “Please don’t be criticizing my US Senator Orrin Hatch.”

    Yeah, anyone who believes in a religion or scriptural text which is simply not supported by archeological or DNA evidence would not get my vote.

  467. Betty,

    “Interesting idea. Should other states sue California for pot that turns up in Montana?”

    Um, does California have any prosecutions and convictions for marijuana on the books this year, or every year? Can they show they are making a *sincere effort* to enforce the law?

    Can Arizona and Utah show they have made *any* effort to enforce bigamy/polygamy laws? Or do their AG’s openly admit they have no intention of doing so?

    Just a couple of questions to think about…

  468. Wow on Barbara…just wow.

  469. Orrin Hatch said :
    “All I can say is I know people in Hildale who are polygamists who are very fine people.”

    What Orrin means here is that he knows many fine polygamists who contribute very large amounts to his campaign.

  470. May God have mercy on her soul.. She was diagnosed last year with a brain tumor.

  471. Anon,

    Gotcha with the sarcasm on Hatch.

    IRT Babs, she died young and left many children of her own and those she ruled over. I feel sorry for them. I dont really think she was enjoying life on the farm, a son in prison, husband going too, and with a daisy chain lineup of YF Zippers going to trial.

    The mood there must have been somber even before her passing. I guess I hope some good comes out of the tragedy of her early demise. And that would be for the FLDS body to look within and without and take a breath, and consider how they want to live their life going forward.

    And make the proper changes as necessary. Its not impossible.

  472. I am very saddened to hear about Barbara Jessop, she leaves young children not yet fully grown and I am sorry for her younger children.

  473. Boots said:Um, does California have any prosecutions and convictions for marijuana on the books this year, or every year? Can they show they are making a *sincere effort* to enforce the law?

    Just as a side note….a case was just lost, in San Diego, over a medical marijuana arrest [where they were trying to make a case against the proprietor for, supposedly, selling to non medical patients.] Many “pharmacies” were raided a few months back and the jury said the CA marijuana laws conflict with Federal lawa and that CA needs to redefine the law…or words to that effect..
    In the Nat’l forests in and around San Diego, there are huge patches of marijuana found every month or so. Usually only the caretakers are caught, if at all, and they are usually hired illegal immigrants that get turned over to Border Patrol. Most smaller amounts are a citation and a court appareance… and the ‘grass’ s disposed of.

  474. In Washington they find patches on some of the smaller San Juan Islands all the time. I don’t know if they even look for the farmers — I think they just destroy them and leave it at that.

  475. Oh my,
    I am always saddened to hear about people dying.

    I hope that Barbara and the ones who loved her find peace.

    My condolences to you and your family.

  476. I’ll ask again,

    “does California have any prosecutions and convictions for marijuana on the books this year, or every year”?

    Yes/no

    As for the pot patches: Losing is one thing, not even fighting is quite another.

    When your AG shrugs his shoulders and says, “There are too many to prosecute”, my questions are always the same, exactly WHEN did there become too many to prosecute, and what was your state doing BEFORE that point?

    Nothing. They were doing NOTHING.

    Corruption
    Corruption
    Corruption

    There are arrests EVERY DAY in California for marijuana. I guarantee it.

  477. In Washington they find patches on some of the smaller San Juan Islands all the time. I don’t know if they even look for the farmers — I think they just destroy them and leave it at that

    ……………………..

    When I first moved to Washington I lived in the San Juans and knew people who grew it. They would “hollow out” the middle of big blackberry patches and grow it there.

  478. Washington County has made the papers more than once with the amount of pot found in the forest. Between the pot busts/plane crashes and the 3 reported car fire deaths, even an old lady like myself have made the connections.

  479. lol, Very effective. The only people likely to stumble on it there are likely to be too young to have a clue what they’ve found. (I remember selling blackberries for a dollar a gallon.)

  480. I forgot to add this to the above post: just my opinion

  481. Well now two of Merrill Jessops wives have died. Fuanita died last year, (of course Merrill had sent her away in 2005) and now Barbara.

  482. Stamp, from this article, it looks like the BCS issue is still up in the air.

    “Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff is still studying whether to bring an antitrust lawsuit against the BCS, and the Senate recently held hearings on the matter.”

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705349889/Another-BCS-mess.html

  483. how goes the trial today ? still in jury selection ?

  484. LOL, looks like duane must have shown his true colors on HoneyDawn’s blog:

    “Blogger HoneyDawn said…

    Duane or Duaneh or whoever you are, Pratt dumped your letter. He says if you write filth like that again he’ll block you.

    December 9, 2009 5:41 AM

  485. Good to read about duane possibly being banned from HoneyDawn’s blog. He cannot get along with the KS OR the polygamists. ROFL.

  486. WOW

    Shurtleff sure has his priorities straight huh…?

    What a joke. They just cant get anything right.

  487. Stamp, from this article, it looks like the BCS issue is still up in the air.

    “Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff is still studying whether to bring an antitrust lawsuit against the BCS, and the Senate recently held hearings on the matter.”

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705349889/Another-BCS-mess.html

    …………………………….

    Jokes on me. I thought BCS was another FLDS acronym I was unfamiliar with 🙂

  488. Anon 6:12 said:
    Please don’t be criticizing my US Senator Orrin Hatch. He was the 2nd most vocal man in the fight for justice for the University of Utah and the BCS.

    He knows many nice people in Hildale and he cares deeply about football.
    Just to clarify what Hatch and Shurtleff did on the BCS “Anti-Trust” issue in regards to the Univ of Utah football team last year, all they were doing is playing to the voters of Utah.

    There is and was no basis for their claiming an anti-trust violation – the matter had already been litigated in NCAA v. University of Oklahoma, et al, 468 U.S. 85 (1984) where the Supremes stated that the individual schools had a right to market their product (football) and to maximize their profits, and that any effort by the NCAA to ‘equalize’ monetary benefits violated the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. In other words, the NCAA cannot interfere in the “power elite” schools from setting up a system (such as the BCS) that rewards their better schools, over say, Utah.

    Both Hatch and Shurtleff know this, and knew any lawsuit they filed would be a loser. See also Antitrust in Amateur Athletics, 57 Okla.L.Rev. 333.

    They were merely playing to their voters…

  489. Blues said: Both Hatch and Shurtleff know this, and knew any lawsuit they filed would be a loser. See also Antitrust in Amateur Athletics, 57 Okla.L.Rev. 333.
    They were merely playing to their voters…

    By any chance are their lawyers named Parker or Piccaretta? 🙂

  490. Eldorado Success trial update: The jury selection process continued Wednesday morning with Attorney General Greg Abbott still in attendance. Judge Walther stopped the voir dire (prospective juror interview) process several times to admonish defense attorneys that they were asking questions that were outside the scope she found to be acceptable.

    (Surprise, surprise.)

  491. Like “Are you Baptist?”

  492. Why are they so obsessed with Baptists?

  493. Parley Jeffs Dutson was sentenced today to 15yrs to life in prison for the murder of his girlfriend. He was one of the Lost Boys who was kicked out at a very young age.

  494. I don’t know Cat, but as a Baptist, I’m getting pretty sick of it.

  495. Cat, because the children were taken off the ranch intially by baptist church buses from El dorado. Since they were the only church with buses.
    It seems now baptist are included in their smear tactics.

  496. Baptist shelters provided care for the kids during their time away from the ranch and Baptist buses transported them from the ranch. No good deed goes unpunished.

  497. Amen Betty. They were provided for very well I might add, the shelters did everything possible to help the children in any way they could. And most of the shelters were religiously affiliated

  498. sorry, were NOT religiously affiliated

  499. I am a Baptist, and I find the constant references to Baptists as somehow evil by the FLDS ridiculous. The church attempted to help – and they are castigated for it. It makes no sense whatsoever.

  500. Well we know for sure the local LDS did nothing to help

  501. San Angelo doesn’t have an organized LDS church to the best of my knowledge. If we do, its kept very quiet.

  502. Addressing the concerns about prayer, Walther said she was aware of a community of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in San Angelo. While acknowledging LDS Church members are not from the same group, she asked attorneys to see if the LDS faith would be willing to monitor the prayer services of the women and children who remain in the shelter…

    The president of the LDS Abilene Texas Stake, which oversees San Angelo, was surprised by the judge’s request.

    “They think we’re the same ones because we use the Book of Mormon,” said Charles L. Webb. “I’m dumbfounded they would suggest that.”

    Webb plans to contact church headquarters in Salt Lake City for guidance.

  503. They were children,, and most LDS Hierarcy have run backwards from FLDS or anything associated with FLDS.

  504. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272498,00.html

  505. Don’t forget, the Sutton County Steakhouse tried to poison them, too. (Poison me, please poison me with some onion rings..then some chicken fried steak, then some more onion rings and some sweet tea.)

  506. OK. I know I’m sticking my nose where it doesn’t belong, but does anyone know anything about this:

    From the The Blotter in the Eldorado Success:

    December 8 – 7:30 AM

    Caller has information she needs to forward concerning FLDS activity with child.

    Anybody?

  507. Eldorado Success reporting that jury may be seated tonight in Keate trial. Prosecution and Defense have agreed on panel of 36; each side may strike 10 people.

  508. miele,

    and finish it up with pecan pie a la mode.

  509. Jury has been selected and opening arguments begin at 9:30 a.m. tomorrow in the Allen Keate trial.

  510. is anything known about the composition of the jury?

  511. Miele,, I havent heard anything about that.. But we ate at the Steak House in Sutton County last Saturday, and know the owners personally, and they were trying to be helpful by bringing venison for Flds to eat. They would never try to harm anyone. Just goes to show how ignorant some folks can be by others generosity

  512. Wow, I absolutely did not expect them to be able to seat another jury in Eldorado. I’m amazed and delighted. I hope that more details of the goings on at the YFZ come out with this trial. I KNOW there is more that the public hasn’t been told and the more the public learns about them the less effective their “poor me” PR campaign will be.

  513. Cat — 9 men, 3 women; 2 female alternates. Nothing mentioned in the Success about ethnicity or age.

  514. A nine-man, three woman jury has been impaneled to hear arguments in the Allan Keate case. Two female alternates were also selected.

  515. Defense attorney Don Payne offered a motion to allow jurors to visit the “scene” and visit the defendant’s home and tour the YFZ Ranch. The motion was dropped after the prosecutors said they would like to visit the ranch first to make sure nothing has changed. Specifically, the state wanted to visit the home, the watch tower, temple annex vault, doctor’s office and birthing center.

    Another defense motion to quash the third paragraph of the indictment was denied by Judge Walther. A motion to exempt expert witnesses from the “rule” was agreed to by the judge. It is believed the exemption will allow expert witnesses for both the prosecution and defense hear the testimony of other expert witnesses.

  516. Nine-man, three-woman jury seated in Keate case
    A nine-man, three woman jury has been impaneled to hear arguments in the Allan Keate case. Two female alternates were also selected.

    Keate entered an Not Guilty plea and opening arguments were slated for 9:30 a.m. on Thursday, December 10, 2009.

    Defense attorney Don Payne offered a motion to allow jurors to visit the “scene” and visit the defendant’s home and tour the YFZ Ranch. The motion was dropped after the prosecutors said they would like to visit the ranch first to make sure nothing has changed. Specifically, the state wanted to visit the home, the watch tower, temple annex vault, doctor’s office and birthing center.

    Another defense motion to quash the third paragraph of the indictment was denied by Judge Walther. A motion to exempt expert witnesses from the “rule” was agreed to by the judge. It is believed the exemption will allow expert witnesses for both the prosecution and defense hear the testimony of other expert witnesses.

  517. I don’t understand exactly what the “rule” thing means, but Im assuming its a good thing???

  518. the rule is that witnesses can’t sit in the courtroom during testimony. it’s envoked in most cases. kinda like when you are questioned by the police, they’ll have different policemen asking different people questions and then compare answers.

  519. This comment reminds me of a place in the in the dictations, there is a place where Lyle calls my testimony “most bitter.” How would he have any idea what I said?

  520. thank you anonymous, that makes it clearer

  521. http://www.myeldorado.net/
    YFZ Trial Update

    6:15 p.m. Wednesday, December 9, 2009
    Nine-man, three-woman jury seated in Keate case
    A nine-man, three woman jury has been impaneled to hear arguments in the Allan Keate case. Two female alternates were also selected.

    Keate entered an Not Guilty plea and opening arguments were slated for 9:30 a.m. on Thursday, December 10, 2009.

    Defense attorney Don Payne offered a motion to allow jurors to visit the “scene” and visit the defendant’s home and tour the YFZ Ranch. The motion was dropped after the prosecutors said they would like to visit the ranch first to make sure nothing has changed. Specifically, the state wanted to visit the home, the watch tower, temple annex vault, doctor’s office and birthing center.

    Another defense motion to quash the third paragraph of the indictment was denied by Judge Walther. A motion to exempt expert witnesses from the “rule” was agreed to by the judge. It is believed the exemption will allow expert witnesses for both the prosecution and defense hear the testimony of other expert witnesses.

    Sorry it came from the Eldorado Website

  522. A message to all of the Baptists.

    Don’t be offended. The FLDS don’t even like their own mainstream Mormon church – and they follow the LDS scripture.

    The FLDS is the ONLY one true church.

    They don’t like anyone else’s church.

    So don’t take it personally.

  523. yw dd1. it’s me proudtexan. i didn’t realize my name was missing.

  524. Thanks Proud Texan !!

  525. DD, thanks for the sad update about Parley Dutson’s sentencing today.

    I am just sick over this situation.

    I know Parley and he is a GOOD kid. What a tragic story.

    Maybe there should be some sort of retribution for his father, Bygnal Dutson for making his underage teen son leave the FLDS community to try to fend for himself (unprepared to fit in and cope) in the outside world.

    Parley made some bad choices and ended up killing the love of his life.

    It is SO sad and might have been easily preventable had his family not cast him out.

    Parley did the killing, but I believe his parents also have some responsibility for this horrible tragedy.

    Is there NO accountability for these FLDS parents who kicked him out?

  526. Just as Utah turned a blind eye and deaf ear to the ‘marrying’ off of little girls, it also turned it’s back on the boys. All those who were tossed away by their families. It most states it child neglect…apparently there its just another day in the life of flds.

  527. It is not only another day in the life of the FLDS, it is just another day in the life of people in Utah. Where no one gives a tinker’s damn about your unless you belong, submit, obey and tithe to the Salt Lake City LDS Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

  528. And heaven forbid if you are a GLTB person in Utah.

    That also makes you a “non person” if your sexual persuasion is different that what the LDS theocracy state of Utah deems acceptable.

    Heaven help the victims of polygamy and heaven help the gays. I am not gay, but it just sends me over the edge how they can be so selective in what is “acceptable”.

    Utah recently changed their state motto to “Life Elevated”.

    They should have changed it to “life only if it agrees with our church”.

  529. Another reason I gave up, long ago, on organized religion. I don’t like being dictated too about what I am SUPPOSE to believe. Born a Catholic, raised by nuns, preached at by priests, not allowed to think on my own…I ran away and am comfortable with the notion that I believe what I believe and got there with my own thought processes…..befuddled as it may be at times! LOL!

  530. Maybe there should be some sort of retribution for his father
    ======================================================
    Using this argument we would give out retribution to the father of Jeffrey Dahmer or the Virginia Tech Shooter.

  531. A-li-n, did Jeffrey Dalhmer or the Virgina Tech Shooter’s parents kick them out of the house at 14, drop them off on the side of the road with no money or education, too?

  532. Thought I would share one of the best articles I have read so far regarding the UEP Trust:

    http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-9901-polygamist-vs-polygamist.html

  533. Cement

    I think Lyle felt it was Bitter to him because you quit drinking the koolaid.

  534. LadySadie, thanks for the link. Great article.

  535. A-li-n, did Jeffrey Dalhmer or the Virgina Tech Shooter’s parents kick them out of the house at 14, drop them off on the side of the road with no money or education, too?
    ================================================
    Too what? I haven’t seen any evidence the parents of Parley Dutson kicked him out of the house at 14, dropped him off on the side of the road with no money or education?

  536. I read the link LadieSadie provided on the UEP – what I fail to understand is why the feds have not intervened in what is clearly a civil rights issue in which a community is totally biased against a group and concerted works to violate all their rights and due process…..

    No i am not talking about the ranch raid – I am talking about Short Creek

  537. “Using this argument we would give out retribution to the father of Jeffrey Dahmer or the Virginia Tech Shooter.”

    Did Jeffrey Dahlmer or the Virginia Tech Shooter abandon their parental responsibilities when those two were young teens? If so, yes, maybe they should pay a price to society too.

  538. “Too what? I haven’t seen any evidence the parents of Parley Dutson kicked him out of the house at 14, dropped him off on the side of the road with no money or education?”

    Al, Parley was living on his own at the age of 14. His parents clearly failed to provide him a safe, loving and accepting homelife. Whether they dropped him off by the side of the road or drove him away by their actions, it matters not. What matters is that they failed to prepare their son for society and failed to protect society from their son. He was their responsibility until the age of 18 in this country. I would like to see the parents of the girl Parley killed sue his parents for wrongful death. It is long past the time the FLDS parents were revealed for their LACK of love so that the cries of “we just love our children and need them with us” are revealed for the untruths they are. Truth is, the FLDS only love their children as long as they toe the line — once they stop toeing the line they don’t want to have anything to do with them. Parents left children barely 9 years old behind in Short Creek to go build Zion. Not even 10 and already rejected as not perfect enough by your parents. Poor kids.

  539. Alinusara- When the story about Parley came out it was mentioned that Parley got kicked. I followed the story closely and though I might have missed something (but I don’t think I did) he was out on his own by the age of 16.

    I could dig around all day and get the links but I don’t have the time or energy to do so.

    Parley got tossed out from his family, his “school” his Church and his community.

    He entered a world he was raised to fear.

    He and Kara Hopkins met when she was 13 and soon the two began to date. He was 16 and she 13. And while no other pulled that trigger that shot Kara that day, I believe that there are circumstances that led them both to that tragic day. 😦

    This is a very tragic story for everyone involved. Parley spending 15 years in prison justice will be served but it won’t bring back Kara.

    I will give you something to think about. Kara got shot in 2007. What do you suppose would have happened if Mark Shurtleff did something about the Lost Boys when he first heard about the kids?

    Would we be talking about this today????

    I just hope that people will learn some things from this story.

    Please watch this: http://www.sling.com/video/show/237999/86/Banished%3A-The-Lost-Boys-of-Polygamy

  540. cement,

    Maybe Lyle is now having prophetic nocturnal emissions?

  541. He and Kara Hopkins met when she was 13 and soon the two began to date. He was 16 and she 13. And while no other pulled that trigger that shot Kara that day, I believe that there are circumstances that led them both to that tragic day

    ……… . . .

    The hypocrisy shown by the FLDS and their apologists when they complain about the YFZ raid is mindlblowing.

    I can only imagine the psychological damage sustained by a young person who has been completely rejected by his parents, torn from his family, and thrown into a world which he has been taught to fear.

  542. cement, where in the dictations are you referring to?

  543. I would like to know why Kara Hopkins parents allowed her to date at 13yrs old? It seems she was related to the Nielson family. In 2007 18 women were murdered by abusive boyfriends or spouses. And the age range was 15 to 52. It was actually HIGHER than that in 2006. Utah has a major problem, and delaying cases, ignorning cases of abuse is NOT a solution.

  544. Parley Jeffs was heard saying after he shot this child to death, that she had to submit to him, she belonged to him, she had to do what he said… “sound familiar”?

  545. Yep, he was merely repeating what he had heard and seen all his life. Sickening.

  546. Today, Brooke Adams posted an entry into her polygamy blog basically blaming Carolyn Jessop for the stress that killed Barbara Jessop…it is unbelievable!! Please go read the blog yourself under the polygamy section of the Salt Lake Tribune web site (www.sltrib.com)…I didn’t know that Brooke was an editoral writer…I thought she was supposed to be an unbiased reporter..read it yourself and, if motivated to action, please complain to the Salt Lake Tribune…

  547. how do we file such a complaint ?

  548. I don’t mean to interrupt or change the topic, but is there any information regarding the trial today from the Success or other sources ?

  549. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/dec/09/keate-trial-jury-selection-continues/

  550. thanks

  551. catwhisperer,

    The last update from the Success came at 11:00 am this morning. Nothing else since then or the S-T article linked by dd1.

  552. Cat, Randy Mankin has as of 11:00 am, opening arguements then Texas Ranger Danny Crawford going through the chain of evidence.

    Ranger Crawford states there are 82 pieces of evidence to be entered in this case.

    (Is it just me, or does that sound like a lot?)

  553. Lots of documents would be my guess, Miele.

    I’m loving that and it will be interesting to see what they are planning to enter that perhaps we haven’t seen or known prior.

  554. What’s the deal with the tour? Anyone know?

  555. I didn’t know if DNA was fifty documents or two, but I wondered if there was some significance in our AG being there?

    From the article dd1 linked, it seems the defense backed off the dog-and-pony-show once the State requested tours of the temple, guard house and birthing center. Nice work team Abbott.

    dd1, tell your friends at the SCSH that I admire their compassion and generosity. I also admire their onion rings. And chicken fried steak. And….well just,.. yum.

  556. Interesting link about the UEP trust

    http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-9901-polygamist-vs-polygamist.html

    If someone else has already posted this link, I can’t keep up; promise I didn’t plaigarize.

  557. The “search” feature of internet explorer said no one had posted this link, yet I see it has already been posted when I started scanning other posts.

  558. Update from the Success at 5:00 pm —

    Amy Smutts, DNA expert — 99.999996 percent possibility Keates fathered the child of the victim.

    Also testifying: former Ranger Thomas Jason Kenerd, DPS Investigator Todd Hester, an unnamed CPS worker and Ranger Jesse Valdez. Testimony from Kenerd, Hester and Valdez included evidence collection process they personally participated in. Testimony from the CPS employee regarding her interview with the victim.

  559. That article is a good read, cement. Linked to earlier, but no harm or foul especially because the article is so good.

    Lots of particulars and information in it I’ve not read elsewhere that help to add texture to the context of the UEP-FLDS fight.

  560. Cement, when two people post the same wonderful post I refer to that as great minds think alike, LOL. I’ll take it as a compliment that we both thought the article was worth sharing!

  561. I read the link earlier,, the reporter did a fair and balanced job of the story. And provided lots of information, I was totally impressed!

  562. I felt really sorry for Ron Cooke and his wife. 😦

  563. Brooke Adams just posted an article on her Plural Life blog titled “Barbara Jessop”. I ask all of you to protest this article, write into the Tribune, and request that Brooke be terminated as a reporter. Not only does Brooke imply that Carolyn is to blame for Barbara’s death, but she paints Barbara as a “good mother” and that the stress from Carolyn, et al “took its toll”.

    How ridiculous it that?! The only stress that “took its toll” on Barbara was her own evil-doing, like marrying her 12 year old daughter to a 50 year old pervert, and doing everything in her power to destroy innocent people’s lives, including Carolyn Jessops.

    Merril Jessop has not paid Carolyn one thin dime since the court ordered him to do so, and if Barbara died from being “shell shocked and bereft” as Brooke implies, it was probably from throwing temper tantrums about Merril paying Carolyn what he owes her for child support.

    Sounds like Brooke in envious of Carolyn who has the courage to stand up against child molesters and perpetrators of the worst kind. What has Brooke ever done to help the victims? All Brooke does is empower the perpetrators and fan the flames of hate against American heros like Carolyn Jessop who singlehandedly has done more to stop FLDS crime than anyone on earth.

    Every paycheck the Tribune gives Brooke is stained with the blood of innocent women and children trapped inside polygamy, and I for one will never give Brooke another story.

    Brooke has the audacity to paint her biased article, and then closes the comments section. What an outrage!

    Please write to SL Trib editor: orme@sltrib.com

    Barbara Jessop article:

    http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_13952450

    BANKING ON HEAVEN . COM

  564. Thanks Laurie, will do.
    I find her article inflammatory and insensitive

  565. THANKS Laurie

    Wow I got an email from one of her victims, it twernt pretty.

  566. Well its quite evident Brooke isn’t in El Dorado, she hasn’t posted a new story on the trib since Monday.

  567. or the 8th

  568. From myeldorado.net they are reporting that as part of the testimony today one of the Texas Rangers testified that they found a “sea container” of weapons on the Ranch. Wow a sea container would hold a whole lot of weapons!

  569. A “sea shipping container”? WOW those are huge!

    I’d like to see the manifesto on that cargo! WE know they have a tone of 22 guns and heavy 50 caliber guns, what else?

  570. Williams said a series of gun safes and cabinets were found in the Temple vault but no guns were located there. He said guns were found in another location. Among those guns, Williams said he saw para-military semi-automatic weapon with a scope.

    Defense attorney Randy Wilson asked if it was the kind of gun used to hunt deer, to which Williams replied, “No.”

  571. So now we know there were weapons!

  572. Brooke’s blog has a link from the SLTrib but she is responsible for the blog on her own. Complaining to the SLTrib editor/owners won’t get any result and comments on her blog are subject to her monitor/approval. Comments section on the SLTrib articles written by Brooke Adams is the only spot where her readership can read your opinion and appreciate your position.

  573. Do you know how big a “sea container” is? That would hold lots of weapons.

  574. When she started the blog on wordpress, she told everyone the same same rules apply as the salt lake tribune rules.

  575. This is what is in her “About the Blog”
    The Salt Lake Tribune does not regulate or approve reader comments on blogs. Commenters should avoid offensive and defamatory language and keep comments on-topic. Users are encouraged to notify The Tribune of comments that do not adhere to these guidelines. E-mail brooke@sltrib.com with the headline of the post where the comment in question is posted. Persistent offenders may be blocked from posting.

  576. deputydog1,

    Brooke would probably be too “shell shocked and bereft” to write about Keate’s trial even if she were physically in Eldorado.

  577. I bet if the jury had exonerated him or given him only probation she would have been back to cover more.

    We already knew about the weapons and the sea container. For some reason the information was buried by the media. Hmmm. I suppose Willie said “We are a peaceful people” and everyone just fell in line like zombies.

  578. i emailed brooke and told her how biased her report on barbara against carolyn was, not that it will do any good.

  579. wee willie is a big fat liar!!!

  580. The media mentioned guns. And as far as Willie goes he was one of the guys up in Canada with gun parts.

    Wasn’t illegal to bring them over in pieces apparently illegal if they are brought over in one piece.

    Willie from what I understand did the whole pointing of the finger into Shurtleffs chest at some point. Shurtleff talked about it before he found time to go on Tucker. Right around the time Shurtleff started calling Willie a thug. 2 or 3 years ago maybe.??

    Should be on the Rick Ross website someplace.

    Blues even mentioned it on his site some time ago.

    Guns were no secret. What I am wondering about is if any of those match up with the “missing guns” from the Utah caves.???

    I am trying to watch Illuminati with Tom Hanks. I’ll be back later.

  581. Why are people so surprised about Brooke Adams?

    She started the lawsuit against the HOPE org more than 2 years ago.

    HOPE is just a charity trying to help victims of the FLDS and other polygamous groups.

    What vendetta did this “reporter” have against a charity trying to help victims?

    And a charity she used to get access to people to enhance her status as a reporter.

    She is selfish, self-serving and mean.

    Good that people are now seeing her true colors.

  582. At the bottom of the blog page it says:

    The Plural Life – Copyright 2006-2009 – The Salt Lake Tribune

    That makes me think that contacting the Salt Lake Tribune WOULD have some sort of impact because it does not appear to be her personal blog, but an extension of the newspaper.

  583. Sea Containers have standard sizes as to width of 8 feet and height of 9.5 feet length can vary from half-size which is 20 feet or full-size which is 40 feet. 45, 48, 50 & 53 feet are uncommon but used to size specific cargo. Contractors like them for on site construction cribs to lock up tools and valuable materials prior to installation.

  584. But CaJim, the Sea Containers were stationed on the YFZ ranch which was secured by a fence running all along the perimeter of the property and a guard tower monitoring the comings and goings.

    So, my question is “why would anyone need to lock up tools and valuable materials”?

    It was all stored on holy YFZ land, where doors are not locked.

  585. Trent found this, A Big Love Christmas

    http://www.hbo.com/biglove/junipercreek/index.html

    Watch your favorite polygamists celebrate Christmas and here the many songs!

    For slow speed connections, go right to this one song, which to me is an ode to Barbara Jessop:

    ———— ———

    SILENT WIFE

    [audio src="http://www.hbo.com/biglove/junipercreek/songs/silent-wife.mp3" /]

  586. Stamp the FLDS do not celebrate Christmas, but do other Fundalmentist groups celebrate
    Christmas?

    SILENT WIFE is really good.

  587. Interesting thing about the article linked “Flds vs Flds (UEP)” above twice. There is a scene described where the UEP representative had rented a piece of property to one couple but they were having difficulties of some sort (heat?) , meanwhile a couple who had once lived there (still in Short Creek) were told by FLDS to reclaim it even tho they didn’t need it and they illegally changed the locks.
    The reporter records that in which Jeffs is quoted as saying that Short Creek has been rejected of God…. the woman falters and then says that that is forbidden reading ….

    I guess when sites like these continue to quote the “Short Creek has been rejected of God” it actually may make an impact …

    It really has to be a difficult psychological place to be when you are loyal and faithful but are rejected of God

  588. Justin,
    On what grounds did Brooke Adams start a lawsuit against the HOPE organization ?

  589. Utah needs a polygamy reporter who isn’t a mouthpiece for pedophiles. Utah needs an investigative reporter like John Dougherty who wrote for the Phoenix NewTimes. Dougherty did his homework and published voluminous articles on FLDS corruption, like welfare fraud, birth defects, and underage brides. Dougherty followed the money trail and exposed FLDS fraud, like using school funds to buy an airplane, et cetera.

    Where are Brooke’s articles exposing crime? Where are Brooke’s interviews with victims of polygamy? When was the last time Brooke wrote an article about Diversity Foundation or The HOPE Organization? The Barbara Jessop story was written to create empathy for a perpetrator and blame the victim. This quote says it all, “But for most of the public, the image created by Carolyn is the lasting impression of Barbara.”

    Brooke Adams thinks images in ESCAPE are more “lasting” than photographs of Warren Jeffs kissing Barbara’s 12 year old daughter.

    Laurie Allen thinks Brooke Adams is high on Willie’s shoe polish.

    BANKING ON HEAVEN . COM

  590. CW,
    For copying her whole articles on to their webpage rather than linking them.

  591. Anon

    No, FLDS do NOT celebrate Christmas, and most other fundies dont either.

    I mean, once your up to 3 wives and 20 kids, could you imagine what Christmas would do to your Visa Card?

    Many people who leave yes celebrate it. So Big Love is just showing that the FLDS WANT to celebrate it, they JUST CANT AFFORD TO.

    DECK THE COMPOUND

    [audio src="http://www.hbo.com/biglove/junipercreek/songs/deck-the-compound.mp3" /]

  592. Three Hummers at the Creek

    This song kinda tells what Bruce Wisan is up against.

    [audio src="http://www.hbo.com/biglove/junipercreek/songs/i-saw-three-hummers.mp3" /]

  593. We Three Wives

    “…stay with husband every third night

    Singing, skating, procreating…”

  594. I was curious about Parley Dutson so I looked him up. Best I know is according to Deseret News he left home at age 16. He would have been better off at home staying away from alcohol and drugs but teenagers often make poor choices.

  595. Just for the record here is The Hope Organization’s version of the facts.

    It’s pretty safe to assume that the female reporter is Brooke Adams although the link doesn’t say.

    Now I will say this: Brooke Adams is about the only reporter who has sources inside the FLDS community. Since the FLDS tend to be a paranoid and xenophobic group, I’d imagine that the care and feeding of those sources must be difficult.

    I read the blog post about Barbara Jessop. I didn’t think it was biased one way or another. After folks got their noses out of joint, I re-read it. I still get the same impression. I know lots of folks think that any mother who sold off her 12 year old daughter should have nothing but scorn and derision heaped on them. I can’t say that I don’t agree. However, calling someone “controversial and complicated,” “a tragic figure,” and “an enigma” are not exactly high praise if you ask me.

  596. So, my question is “why would anyone need to lock up tools and valuable materials”?

    It was all stored on holy YFZ land, where doors are not locked.
    =========================================================
    Because little kids have been known to play with dangerous materials when you are looking away for a split second. Might as well prevent avoidable tragedies I suppose.

  597. Dougherty followed the money trail and exposed FLDS fraud, like using school funds to buy an airplane, et cetera.
    ==================================================
    Actually as long as that plane was used solely for school related business it wasn’t fraud.

  598. Yeah Alinusara, I am positive the plane was used only for school related business.
    How is it that I don’t regularly need a plane and I teach ?
    Give me a break !

  599. Because little kids have been known to play with dangerous materials when you are looking away for a split second. Might as well prevent avoidable tragedies I suppose.

    Alinusara10 said this on December 11, 2009 at 9:48 AM

    Well, so many of those little kids already are trained how to use those saws, other power tools and drive those back-hoes.

    They have a lot of experience with them from being used as underage child labor running heavy equipment and working construction.

    Dangerous stuff for kids and against OSHA rules. But that doesn’t stop the FLDS.

  600. Alinusara, Don’t pee on my leg and tell me that it is raining….

  601. I read the blog post about Barbara Jessop. I didn’t think it was biased one way or another. After folks got their noses out of joint, I re-read it. I still get the same impression. I know lots of folks think that any mother who sold off her 12 year old daughter should have nothing but scorn and derision heaped on them. I can’t say that I don’t agree. However, calling someone “controversial and complicated,” “a tragic figure,” and “an enigma” are not exactly high praise if you ask me.

    …………………..

    I agree with this. I don’t see Barbara as a monster, although I think she cried crocodile tears over her daughter.

    You have to think there must be some thoughts, even among the most faithful, that maybe, just maybe, they have given their lives, their children, their money and their faith to a false prophet.

  602. “Because little kids have been known to play with dangerous materials when you are looking away for a split second. Might as well prevent avoidable tragedies I suppose.”

    A laudable thought. Too bad they don’t do the same with seatbelt use. I guess they aren’t terribly worried about avoidable tragedies involving children and motor vehicles. Oh, and then there are those avoidable tragedies involving minors working and/or visiting worksites. The FLDS haven’t been terribly good about preventing them either. But they got those tools locked up! Or was it guns? I suppose that’s something. I’d certainly be unhappy about the guns being easy for children (or teens) to access too.

  603. From Brooke’s posting on Barbara:

    “It would be one thing for us as American citizens to be victims of street crimes, so to speak. It is entirely another thing to have my pure, innocent child be a victim to unjust trauma and torture, literally coming from the courts of ‘justice’. There are no words to describe the effort it takes to control my feelings and emotions.”

    IMHO Barbara Jessop helped make her “pure, innocent child be a victim” by allowing the 12-year-old little girl to become another one of dozens of polygamous “wives” to a 50-year-old pervert.

    And this part:
    “There are no words to describe the effort it takes to control my feelings and emotions.”

    Yeah there are 2 words for that:
    “Keeping Sweet”

  604. Ron, the problem with your statement about brooke’s post is that you evidently didn’t see what others saw. For Instance, Brooke knew last year Barbara Jessop had a tumor, and though she was under stress from everything that happened at the ranch, brooke took it upon herself to name Carolyn as the stress factor.
    Witnesses (not just Carolyn) have brought foward how Barbara Jessop treated others children. I don’t consider a woman who beat, kicked and harmed children as young as a year old for crying, a “good woman”.

  605. The woman died, because she had health problems, no one can say she died because Carolyn wrote a book or gave testimony. We didn’t live in the same household as carolyn with her children.

  606. Sorry Brooke, this woman had a brain tumor.
    Barbara probably died from seizure disorder.
    This hardly represents death from “stress” Brooke.

  607. There are many who come to this site who have sources withiin and without flds. I can’t for the life of me understand why some people ignore the facts they bring.

  608. This was a statement provided Brooke from Barbara herself.
    “It would be one thing for us as American citizens to be victims of street crimes, so to speak. It is entirely another thing to have my pure, innocent child be a victim to unjust trauma and torture, literally coming from the courts of ‘justice’. There are no words to describe the effort it takes to control my feelings and emotions.”
    ***************

    Barbara never got it!!! The fact she and many at YFZ williingly broke the laws of Texas and continued after being told it was against the law, isn’t injustice, its Justice. FLDS have continually blamed everyone and everything that happens to them on ANYONE else, they refuse to stand up and take responsibility for their illegal actions.

  609. I don’t consider a woman who beat, kicked and harmed children as young as a year old for crying, a “good woman”.
    =================================================
    That’s given the assumption she did so.

    I don’t blame anyone for Barbara’s passing. I think her father called her home.

  610. Alinusara, God called caden stubbs home last year to in the Creek. He was just a baby. His family wanted to bury him in the family cemetary, but that didn’t keep FLDS leadership from trying to deny a baby could be buried in their cemtary. Why? Because caden stubbs parents were kicked out of FLDS, although most of their family members are buried there, and they stil had plots in the cemetary for their family members.
    The family went through all the right channels to get permission, but their calls went unanswered, so the father called Bruce Wisan, and ask, and Wisan gave them permission.
    Caring, Loving people don’t do shit like FLDS did, especially to a baby who died.

  611. “I read the blog post about Barbara Jessop. I didn’t think it was biased one way or another.”

    I agree with you Ron. I don’t see that she blames the situation on Carolyn either. I must say, having never read “Escape” my view of Barbara has been based only on the articles I’ve read. I believe she was really pained by the loss of her daughter to the state. Some of it was undoubtedly more of a loss of a “possession”, in my mind (an impression I actually got from all of the mothers who spoke out — they just didn’t really seem to be worried about their children as people, only worried that THEY didn’t have control over them), but some of it was really about her daughter being out of her life. She and her daughter certainly seemed to have a good relationship and maybe Barbara HAD learned to treat people better after Carolyn left and the book was published — I don’t know. Still, my main take is that people are reading more into Brooke’s blog entry than there is.

  612. I have been remiss in my duties.

    Alinusara10 F U,
    Love Fred

  613. Caring, Loving people don’t do shit like FLDS did, especially to a baby who died.
    ==========================================================
    If you remember right you had about 75 members of the FLDS at the ceremony saying good bye to that baby. Sounds like a loving caring bunch to me.

    “About 75 family members and friends stood in a circle at the grave site where the 8-month-old’s tiny casket, trimmed in baby blue, rested between bouquets of flowers while a hymn was sung and a dedicatory prayer delivered.”

  614. Hi Anonymous stalker.

  615. Yeah Alinusara, FAMILY who are NO LONGER members!! Stunning isn’t it that so many human beings have been kicked out of Warren’s narcissitic club!

  616. How would you know exactly how many of the mourners were no longer members? Did you take a census?

  617. Alinusara, had it not been for Bruce Wisan , that baby wouldn’t have had family burial place, Think about that!!! Big Willie made an ass of himself about the situation to. That was one situation I followed closely because it was horrendous for me to think, NO ONE IN LEADERSHIP called cadens father back , EVER!!

  618. Fred,
    I think I love you

  619. You TWIT!!! Alinusara, you still don’t get either!

  620. If you remember right you had about 75 members of the FLDS at the ceremony saying good bye to that baby. Sounds like a loving caring bunch to me.

    Alinusara10 said this on December 11, 2009 at 10:45 AM

    The 75 “loving caring bunch” of people at the baby’s funeral were NOT FLDS. They were apostates. That means EX-FLDS.

    The FLDS didn’t want the baby buried in the family plot in the cemetery.

    Damn you’re [Caution on name calling, The Monitor]!

  621. Maybe next time a baby dies you can invite the family to bury the baby on your property if it makes you feel better.

  622. The 75 “loving caring bunch” of people at the baby’s funeral were NOT FLDS. They were apostates. That means EX-FLDS.
    =======================================================
    Before you call me names can you please tell me how you know? Did you do a census? Did you run around at the funeral asking for their church affiliation?

  623. #

    How would you know exactly how many of the mourners were no longer members? Did you take a census?

    Alinusara10 said this on December 11, 2009 at 10:53 AM

    100% were NOT members of the FLDS. See, the FLDS doesn’t allow members to mix with ex-members.

    Probably not all of the mourners had been a part of the FLDS in the past, but it is guaranteed that none there at that funeral were current members.

  624. Probably not all of the mourners had been a part of the FLDS in the past, but it is guaranteed that none there at that funeral were current members.
    ===============================================
    By guaranteed you mean you made it up and we all must take your word for it.

  625. Hi Anonymous stalker.

    Alinusara10 said this on December 11, 2009 at 10:46 AM

    Go look up the definition of “stalker” in a dictionary. There is no stalking going on here.

    There is however an effort to correct your lies and address your stupidity here.

    Your postings seem to be more asinine today than usual.

    Did you start drinking early this morning?

  626. Alin: How do you know any of the 75 mourners were flds members. Did you take a poll or are we to just accept what you said. Fred is my hero. alinFU

  627. Al don’t be a donkey, Jack!

  628. Probably not all of the mourners had been a part of the FLDS in the past, but it is guaranteed that none there at that funeral were current members.
    ===============================================
    By guaranteed you mean you made it up and we all must take your word for it.

    Alinusara10 said this on December 11, 2009 at 11:07

    I should have phrased it “are current members” instead of “were current members”

    Because, if there were any current members of the FLDS at that baby’s funeral, they would have been kicked out of the FLDS by dinner time.

    That’s how it works with this group.

    GUARANTEED!

  629. Al just cant comprehend the crazy. Oh well, listen to the trial, the bad acts, buy a clue al.

    As Crazy a cult as they come.

  630. Maybe next time a baby dies you can invite the family to bury the baby on your property if it makes you feel better.

    Alinusara10 said this on December 11, 2009 at 11:00 AM
    ******************************

    Are you kidding me????? The stubbs family put in their time, money, work for years in FLDS. YeS, if a baby needed to be buried, I would offer a burial place on my property.
    Your still a TWIT!

  631. And guess what Alinusara, if a city uses state, or federal funds, or school funds in their city, you can’t just kick people out whenever you want to.

  632. Any updates on the trial today ?

  633. Nope, not yet Catwhisperer.. And it’s weird don’t you think that Brooke Adams has been absent in her reporting on the Keate trial?

  634. Not as of yet from the Courthouse but marriage licenses and church documents should come next.

  635. It was interesting last night to know they found a “sea container” with weapons in it however on the ranch. Now I see why the Feds were involved.

  636. Jenny Sanford has filed for divorce against her Appalachian trail hiking husband.
    I hope she takes him to the cleaners in divorce court.

  637. Did anyone see the interview with one of Tiger Woods xgirlfriens on the Today show this morning?

  638. Why isn’t Brooke in Eldorado, and what happened in the interview with Tiger Woods’ ex girlfriend ?

  639. Ron

    I guess my reaction to Brooke is born out of retorts that were quickly posted by the PPSG, and I half expected this from Broke. First Boil Mudpuppy mentions Carolyn, then Deb Lee, then Brooke completes the trifecta.

    Look, if she is going to write a eulogy, there is absolutely no reason on God’s Green Earth to mention her real or imagined enemies, or to parrot the trashy websites.

    Let me ask, and you can do this as a test. Pull up the Chron and look at the obits. Do ANY of them list people in their lives who “caused stress” or any other such reference?

    I’ve read a lot of obits out of the paper too. Never seen anything like what Brooke posted.

    It was way off base and a direct dig at Carolyn IMHO.

    You can have your opinion, but thats mine. If Barbara didnt want to go down in history immortalized as an abuser then she could have acted like a human being.

    I submit the fact she signed over MJ to Warren as proof she is less than human.

    Perhaps Brooke should have listed all Barbaras crimes, failings and mistakes which came around and made her life hell, blame the person who created their own screwed up life, NOT a victim!

  640. Well said Stamp…Also,if others need help showing how Brooke’s blog was biased, I can help point out the obvious, but I would prefer not to assume they can’t recognize bias when they see it.

  641. catwhisperer,

    My guess is that budget restraints are the reason the SLT does not have Brooke in Eldorado for the Keate trial.

    Not to mention wear and tear on Brooke as there are 8 more trials with dates set in 2010 and that doesn’t even include Warren’s Texas trial. Travel comes with the territory, but being away from home every month for a year is tough. I doubt most of us would be willing to do so.

    Just my opinion, but I think it is entirely reasonable for the SLT not to have her in Texas for every single trial. Might as well relocate her if she is expected to attend all of them.

  642. This is the part of Brooke’s tribute to Barbara that I take some issue with:

    “But for most of the public, the image created by Carolyn is the lasting impression of Barbara.

    So, too, are the widely publicized photos of Barbara’s youngest daughter being kissed by FLDS leader Warren Jeffs.”

    Golly gee, ya think?

    And could it be that the fact that Barbara’s 12-year-old child was given to WSJ as a heavenly comfort wife doesn’t exactly make her mother-of-the-year material in spite of the doting daughters who brought her soup and tissues?

    That kind of thing tends to give credence to Carolyn’s portrayal of Barbara as less than an ideal mother.

    If those are the things the public is left with, seems to me there are good reasons for it and so be it.

    Was she “all bad”? Not likely.

    No question, though, that Barbara Jessop was beloved by some and reviled by others.

    That’s a reality that shutting down the comments can’t change and the facts about the marriage of her youngest daughter to Warren Jeffs makes it unavoidable for the not-so-pretty parts of the picture to be there at all times.

    I can see some reasons for shutting down the comments, but I disagree with that call. There’s no good reason that Brooke could not have filtered the comments in the way she does anyway to keep the more caustic ones off of the blog unless she wasn’t up to the task.

    Totally speculation on my part, but I wonder if Brooke wasn’t personally too emotionally upset by Barbara’s death to do the tough nut-cutting tasks that would have been required with open comments.

    Better to have someone else do a story if you can’t keep your own emotions out of it. The entire piece struck me as overemotional.

  643. From the Eldorado Success, Randy Mankin says the trial is recessed until Monday.

    He goes on to say Judge Walther is interviewing the jurors individually.

    http://myeldorado.net/

    Anyone have any idea what that means?

  644. Something weird going on with the Keate trial

    http://www.myeldorado.net/

    Trial is recessed until Monday at 9:15 and Judge Walther is interviewing each juror individually in her chamber????

  645. We can, I believe, trust this judge to dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s. I’m very VERY curious too.

  646. texastwist,
    I agree with you on the matter of Brooke posting this soliloquy about Barbara.

    It is like a child getting the last word in on the play gound and then taking his ball and going home.

  647. Precisely, Anon 2:39.

  648. Does anyone know if they had a funeral service for Barbara? And was Raymond Jessop was allowed to attend the services?

  649. I can’t see why Raymond Jessop would be allowed out of prison the attend the funeral of a step-mother? That wouldn’t make any sense at all. If he is I hope the state prison systems are sued by every other prison that has not been allowed out of prison to attend any extended family members funeral.

  650. He isn’t in prison. He is in the local jail.

  651. Maybe Walther is asking each juror how they would feel having cameras in the courtroom? Then come Monday Brooke and Trent and others will all be allowed inside.

    That is my wish for the start of next week. Cameras and more reporters.

  652. Walton

    He’s on the Texas Tour of Tough Correctional Facilities?

    I wonder if they are going to drive him to town every time there is a trial.

    He is supposed to have been placed in a prison by now.

  653. My guess is that there is a problem – a leak of information, or someone has been compromised, and they don’t know who it is. But, that’s wild speculation, don’t go repeating it as anything else.

  654. He was there for court I think on Monday.

  655. You know what is crazy is that for the longest time everyone was using the phrase ” The eyes of Texas are on you” and then when the court proceedings start they quit saying it.

    The media backed off and they shut the doors for any recording devices in the courtroom. Now don’t get me wrong, I really like Judge Walther but if Willie can drive a small bus of lawyers to attend the hearings why can’t we see it?

  656. Please continue discussion on # 19

    Thank you! —– ADMIN

  657. What Betty said about the questioning of the jurors by Judge Walther.

  658. http://conchovalleyhomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=58972

    FLDS CRIMINAL TRIALS TO PROCEED
    51ST DISTRICT JUDGE BARBARA WALTHER PRESIDED OVER A HEARING ON A “MOTION TO QUASH GRAND JURY INDICTMENTS” IN THE F-L-D-S CRIMINAL CASES. DEFENDANTS SCHEDULED FOR TRIAL OVER THE NEXT YEAR — WERE IN THE MEMORIAL BUILDING IN ELDORADO YESTERDAY– INCLUDING RAYMOND JESSOP WHO WAS CONVICTED OF CHILD SEXUAL ASSAULT LAST MONTH.

    This was written Tues. morning about Monday.

  659. An old fleece blanket can be used as an automobile blanket. Keep that old fleece blanket in your motor vehicle and if a disastrous situation arises where you’ll demand it you can use it. Hopefully you won’t require that fleece blanket and it’ll just take up space in your particular car.

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