Open Discussion # 17

Continued from Open Discussion #16

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on November 15, 2009.

695 Responses to “Open Discussion # 17”

  1. I might have been Duane’s last living defender but after his last sock puppet stunt even I came to the conclusion he should be banned.

    I hate banning nonsensical posters because it leaves me nobody to toy with. But there is a limit.

  2. Defending flat out deceit as practiced by Bill M really went too far for me. In my field that type of dishonesty is not only unethicasl, but illegal and as they say, a resume altering event.
    I really don’t like to see anyone banned for their beliefs, but there are limits.

  3. You’ve GOT to be kidding, right? Tailoring? Child Development? THAT will help the girls have an independent life. NOT.
    =======================================================
    Ta hell Betty? They didn’t teach home economics when you was in Junior high or High School? Child Development is currently a prerequisite in a lot of Universities for those persuing a career in education. It’s nice that they are teaching an advance class like that and letting those who are serious about the future of our children get it out of the way.

  4. Alin,, thats the biggest laugh Ive had all day.. Home Eco. was always an elective in school, it certainly wasn’t required. Another fact you left out,,, Flds don’t teach it for “career” purposes, but because the women are encouraged NOT to continue their eduction but get married as soon as possible and have babies, your ignorant a$$ h@le.

  5. They didn’t teach home economics when you was in Junior high or High School? Child Development is currently a prerequisite in a lot of Universities for those persuing a career in education. It’s nice that they are teaching an advance class like that and letting those who are serious about the future of our children get it out of the way

    ……………………………………..

    You can debate the merits of whatever they are teaching in their schools, but the fact remains that girls who are married and have babies to take care of when they are 16 are not going to go on to a higher education and a career.

    Instead of a high school girl deciding with her parents which college to attend, Warren Jeffs decides which of his cronies gets to stick his dick into her.

    Barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen is what Uncle Warren wants and decrees.

  6. Has anyone else read the Almost Heaven blog? It is the funniest thing i have read in a long time……

  7. Greetings

    Don’t feel so bad. I’m a Duane defender also. I can respect someone having some different point of view. However, once they descend into deceit and illegitimate tactics then they’ve lost me.

  8. Well said, Ron. Having an open forum with divergent viewpoints is great. But when people are deceptive and manipulative it ceases to be valuable dialog and is just propaganda.

  9. I agree, Ron and Connie. As annoying as Duane has been, I didn’t want to see him banned until now. But if he’s just going to go from blog to blog doing his best to stir up dissention and turmoil, well — let him do it elsewhere. 😐

  10. Besides, we’ll always have Alin. (Greeting nods to Humphrey Bogart.)

  11. Gotta love Alin!!!

  12. Greetings, now you have me singing As Time Goes By. 🙂

  13. Hey Anon 5:52

    My take was sad, not very funny at all.

  14. Boots

    Its a parody….. At least I THINK it is. Still, I kinda agree, how is something that is so horrible made into a joke. Well, I’ve done it dozens of times, but its done in an attempt to shake the enablers into reality.

    BTW here is the link to the Trib editorial on the FLDS prosecutions of the FLDS – since its not a Brooke story, or one that she perhaps likes, its not in her Plyg section.

    http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_13765390

    ================

    IRT duane, well he has been given a voice longer than others who would voice disagreement in almost any pro-child abuse venue out there.

    Both Bill and Huge delete nearly everything that doesnt support their twisted abuse-enabler thinking, I have witnessed that in action.

    Huge simply doesnt allow many posts to begin with, preferring to hear his own echo.

    Bill rarely allows a dissenting voice, but when he does, is liable to edit the words of posters which really shows what kind of a guy he really is.

    Even Brooke cant handle the truth, and her pro-plyg moderation style has nearly killed discussion on her Blaugh.

    From what I’ve seen. anti child abuse posters have pretty much quit posting on the “Potty Life” blaugh. Just too biased.

  15. Stamp

    Editorials belong on the editorial page. It shouldn’t be on a news page.

  16. Alin,, thats the biggest laugh Ive had all day.. Home Eco. was always an elective in school, it certainly wasn’t required.
    =============================================================
    Of course. If I remember my high school days right electives like home economics was taught about 11, or 12 grade. What’s this? They offer tailoring about 11, or 12 grade.

  17. BTW, home economics is required for boys and girls in New York. They learn fundamental skills of cooking, nutrition, sewing, and developmental psychology. It is designed to give kids life skills, not create homemakers.

    I actually think we should be teaching more of it. About family health: nutrition, exercise, and how to cook. About the home economy: how to balance a checking account, save money, and do simple repairs. The sad part of modern life is how so many of us have lost those skills.

  18. Instead of a high school girl deciding with her parents which college to attend, Warren Jeffs decides which of his cronies gets to stick his dick into her.
    ======================================================
    Which is nice but considering that Warren Jeffs has nothing to do with the founders of this school system that split off from his particular sect is irrelevant.

  19. I actually think we should be teaching more of it
    ==================================================
    I disagree with you considering whether or not it should be elective but I will agree that it’s a darn handy skill.

  20. Alin

    “Which is nice but considering that Warren Jeffs has nothing to do with the founders of this school system that split off from his particular sect is irrelevant”

    ===========

    duh, HUH?

    Making some word salad in home ec? What were you trying to say?

  21. Alin, my college-age daughter and I were at our local Chinese grocery. She has been taking Chinese and said to me, “Maybe I can get a job here next summer.”

    I laughed and replied, “All this money to turn you into a recent Chinese immigrant.”

    That’s what you do when you waste school time to teach tailoring—you teach the job skills and social position of a bottom-of-the-economy immigrant.

    I know tailoring, patternmaking and sewing myself. But I have not made or repaired a garment in almost twenty years. I can have a pair of trousers hemmed for a few dollars. The last custom-made suit I ordered for my husband cost less than the materials would have cost. Ready-made clothes are now so cheap that they are almost disposable.

  22. Alin

    “Which is nice but considering that Warren Jeffs has nothing to do with the founders of this school system that split off from his particular sect is irrelevant”

    ===========

    duh, HUH?

    Making some word salad in home ec? What were you trying to say?
    =======================================================
    I’m saying that someone wasted their time bashing Warren Jeffs when he had absolutely nothing to do with the Bountiful School district.

  23. Your daughter is setting her sights too low. China has over $255 billion in exports alone. With her English/Chinese skills she can carve a very nice career for herself.

  24. Alin, both my daughters are engineering majors. Not to worry. She was just talking about a summer job.

  25. I’m saying that someone wasted their time bashing Warren Jeffs when he had absolutely nothing to do with the Bountiful School district.
    ———–
    Just a few days ago you tried to cite the Bountiful School as an example of successful FLDS education. You said, and I quote:
    “This Flds school seems to be doing well by it’s [sic] students.”

    So I guess you were wasting your time as well.

  26. They don’t call it home economics in Virginia. It’s called life skills. It included balancing a check book and basic concepts of family budget as well. Boys and girls take it.

    I can draft patterns and sew. I only do it if I want something that I am not likely to get off the rack, such as costumes. It can pay off for things like prom or wedding dresses. It is also cost effective to make curtains and bed spreads. For some odd reason, those are lots more expensive than their materials.

    But do it for money? No way. Starbucks pays better, and you can get health care.

  27. Just a few days ago you tried to cite the Bountiful School as an example of successful FLDS education. You said, and I quote:
    “This Flds school seems to be doing well by it’s [sic] students.”

    So I guess you were wasting your time as well.
    =============================================================
    Not really. Winston Blackmore is a Bishop in the Canadian branch of Flds.

    It’s a Flds school and it seems to be doing well by its students.

  28. But do it for money? No way. Starbucks pays better, and you can get health care.
    =============================================================
    So very true. The problem is you got to take the baby steps before you can dance. Orchestra is rather archaic but you need the basics before you can compose like Gershwhin. You need to be able to fry an omelete before you can cook like chef Gordin Ramsey. You need to know the basics of clothing maintenance and repair before you can design clothing seen on the catwalks of Paris.

  29. Not really. Winston Blackmore is a Bishop in the Canadian branch of Flds.

    It’s a Flds school and it seems to be doing well by its students.
    ———
    Warren Jeffs excommunicated Winston Blackmore back in 2002.

    I don’t know if there is a new name for the particular sect formed by the people who chose to leave with Blackmore, but they are no longer FLDS.

  30. “Winston Blackmore is a Bishop…”

    WAS a Bishop in the Canadian FLDS.

    Warren Jeffs kicked him out and replaced him with an Oler.

    Many of those in Bountiful stuck with Winston and left Warren’s group.

  31. I don’t know if there is a new name for the particular sect formed by the people who chose to leave with Blackmore, but they are no longer FLDS.
    ================================================================
    From Wiki:

    Winston Blackmore is the leader of Canada’s largest polygamist group. For two decades, Blackmore was the Bishop of the Bountiful, British Columbia group of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS Church), a polygamist community in the Creston Valley. In September 2002, FLDS Church president Warren Jeffs excommunicated him. The community of Bountiful was split nearly in half—about 700 people continue to follow Blackmore, while about 500 follow Jeffs.

    Blackmore was arrested by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in January 2009 and charged with polygamy.[1]

    As of June 30, 2009, Blackmore has married 25 times and has a total of 101 children.[2]

    If he considers himself FLDS I see no way of disputing that. I’ve guess we evolved a bit from the days the Catholic church would excommunicate someone and the person would say “I’ll be a son of a gun, I’m no longer Catholic”.

  32. Alin,

    You’ve got me laughing my butt off at the idea that FLDS girls are taking tailoring in order to be future fashionistas. How far can you stretch common sense, man? What is wrong with your brain? They’re taking tailoring so they can make their own lollipop dresses out of cheap poly-cotton from WalMart!

  33. If he considers himself FLDS I see no way of disputing that. I’ve guess we evolved a bit from the days the Catholic church would excommunicate someone and the person would say “I’ll be a son of a gun, I’m no longer Catholic”.
    ———-
    Ok sure. Except, nowhere in the Wiki article you quoted does it says that Winston Blackmore considers himself FLDS.

    Maybe Winston could hold a poll for name suggestions for his new group. Instead of “Holy United Order” they could try “Sacred Interrelated Posse.”

  34. OH, and I learned to sew and make patterns the old fashioned way. From my mother.

  35. Alin,

    You’ve got me laughing my butt off at the idea that FLDS girls are taking tailoring in order to be future fashionistas. How far can you stretch common sense, man? What is wrong with your brain? They’re taking tailoring so they can make their own lollipop dresses out of cheap poly-cotton from WalMart!
    ========================================================
    Umm how do you know? How many thousands of boys have to play backyard basketball before one step forward who we all know as Michael Jordon? How many thousands of boys have to plink away at guitar strings before one came to the forefront who we call Elvis Presley? How many thousands of girls played around with math before we had someone like Madame Curie come forward?

  36. How many thousands of girls played around with math before we had someone like Madame Curie come forward?
    —————
    Marie Curie was probably NOT preceeded by thousands of math-minded girls. Math education for girls back then was probably little better than math education for FLDS girls today.

  37. Oww, I read A-li-n-sack-o-s*** contributions and now have a headache! WILL NOT FEED THE TROLL, WILL NOT FEED THE TROLL, WILL NOT FEED THE TROLL.

  38. Marie Curie was probably NOT preceeded by thousands of math-minded girls.
    =====================================================
    She was a pretty unique woman. Kudos to her for overcoming all her obstacles. And kudos to her for taking advantage of her opportunities.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Curie

  39. Marie Curie was probably not given in marriage to a middle aged man at the age of 14, either. And I bet she didn’t spend a lot of time taking tailoring classes.

  40. Again alin is posting in ignorance. FLDS 101 has a very good article on the Blackmore split from the flds caused by warren exing winston. Both of his statements listed below are false as other posters have mentioned.

    “Not really. Winston Blackmore is a Bishop in the Canadian branch of Flds.

    It’s a Flds school and it seems to be doing well by its students.”

  41. Marie Curie was probably not given in marriage to a middle aged man at the age of 14, either. And I bet she didn’t spend a lot of time taking tailoring classes.
    —————-
    It’s heartbreaking to consider that there might very well be FLDS girls with the potential to be a physics or chemical pioneer, and the closest they’re going to get is a pastel polyester ‘pioneer’ dress.

  42. As usual Al is just trying to divert attention from the real issue: child brides. (I don’t think we have to worry about a Jessop or Barlow winning Project Runway anytime soon.)

  43. FLDS Administrators; Has that lying troll, ole dog deci duane finally been permanently banned from this site?? I surely hope so. It is way past due.

  44. CMON AL

    Check with your posse!

    Winkie was exed by Warren years ago, for attempting to get a face to face interview with Rulon while he was still alive!

    Winkie was a trustee! But he has been exed for years!

    Buy a clue!

  45. There was a post by duane that was inflammatory, and that part was edited out with the message he was banned.

    So I guess so!

    It was posted on Discussion 16

    Submitted on 2009/11/15 at 2:28am

  46. Thank you stamp and a grand amen to the FLDS administrators. It will be so good to not see his carp posts anymore.

  47. I went back to #16 and read duane’s banishment notice. In part it was due to the fact that he has not posted a new idea for over a year. That is just great!! I have been agitating for him to be permanently banned for a long time and it finally happened. Christmas surely cam early for me. Whoopee.

  48. As I remember he had numerous warnings too. Guess they gave him enough rope to hang himself with!

    Oh well, Bill likes him, sometimes. I can tell he gets on Bills nerves too though. Like Cupcake does. Bill cant push pure garbage, they keep dropping in crazy stuff derailing his CPS rants.

  49. Ellie, there were a lot of women mathematicians before Madam Curie (who was more of a scientist anyway). Maria Agnasi, Ada Lovelace, Sophie Germaine, Marjorie Lee Browne, and more. I had my daughter study some of them because she’s the mathematically inclined person in this family.

  50. Al knows that the Blackmoore school has nothing to do with the FLDS any longer, just like he knows “tailoring” has nothing to do with girls becoming fashion designers, he’s just lying for the Lord again. The truth is the girls are being prepared to be broodmares and nothing else, just like in any other women-are-chattel society.

  51. Ellie, there were a lot of women mathematicians before Madam Curie (who was more of a scientist anyway). Maria Agnasi, Ada Lovelace, Sophie Germaine, Marjorie Lee Browne, and more. I had my daughter study some of them because she’s the mathematically inclined person in this family.
    ———
    Yes I’ve heard of all of them.

    I’m certainly not saying there were NO female mathematicians before Marie Curie but there weren’t THOUSANDS of them like Al was trying to claim.

    Rather, they were the exception, not the rule, because higher education for women was rarely considered a priority back then. And in the FLDS, higher education for women continues to be considered low priority.

  52. Madame Curie earned advanced degrees in physics and mathematics at the Sorbonne. Both her parents were distinguished Polish academics, as was her grandfather. Her older sister studied medicine at the Sorbonne.

    Madame Curie is the only person to have ever won Nobel Prizes in two different disciplines. The Curies’ daughter and son-in-law also won a Nobel Prize in chemistry, in 1935. Their granddaughter is a nuclear physicist, and their great-grandson an astrophysicist.

    This is a family which has prized education and science regardless of gender for many generations, and where men and women worked together as peers, not as master and chattel. They have more Nobel laureates than any other family in science because of it.

    There is no way another Madame Curie will burst fully formed out of the Bountiful Public School System, having suddenly overcome a curriculum of forestry and tailoring.

  53. BTW, although I’m too bored to look any of it up, it is my hazy recollection that the FLDS controlled the Bountiful school after Winston Blackmore was excommunicated and took the majority of followers away. And that the FLDS lifted assets from said school. And that Bruce Wisan sued the FLDS on behalf of the Blackmore followers to get them access to their own school. And that LeRoy Jeffs was one of the school’s trustees. And that Warren Jeffs is believed to have been in Bountiful a dozen times or so while he was on the lam. And that two girls from Bountiful were at the ranch when it was raided.

  54. “Rather, they were the exception, not the rule, because higher education for women was rarely considered a priority back then. And in the FLDS, higher education for women continues to be considered low priority.”

    Very true.

  55. Maybe Duane does annoy Bill M sometimes, but he is Bill’s problem now. Thank you FLDS Texas for sparing us any more of Duane’s BS!

    Duane may also be one of the last live posters keeping Bill M’s site a “blog” instead of just a “rant” and hate page.

    Now there’s just this Alin idiot person here who speaks without having a clue of the history or the facts surrounding the FLDS.

    That makes me think that this Alin idiot just likes to read his/her words printed on the Internet instead of trying to intelligently communicate with others and discuss the issues at hand.

    Otherwise, if this Alin idiot wanted to express his/her views, he/she would speak with knowledge instead of throwing things out that are factually untrue (such as Winston’s FLDS bishop status that changed 7 years ago).

    This Alin idiot really doesn’t have the faintest idea what is going on within the FLDS.

    Maybe we’ll get lucky and this Alin idiot will suddenly become an “expert” on some other topic and go somewhere else where people who know the facts can laugh at him/her too.

    Could we be so lucky? Or are we stuck with this Alin idiot as our blog court jester?

  56. Greetings,
    You are right that the FLDS controlled the Bountiful school after the split and refused to allow the Winstonites to use the school.

    Bruce Wisan did intervene and help the Winstonites with the situation.

    I do know that there was 1 underage girl from Bountiful at the YFZ ranch “visiting her grandmother” during the raid.

    It is rumored that the girl was married off underage while at the YFZ ranch in addition to “visiting her grandmother”.

    There may have been a 2nd Bountiful girl there. I am not positive.

  57. Alin, the coffeeshops of New York are full of baristas with fashion degrees. I’ve personally known three failed couturiers. Without connections in the garment industry, it seems about as realistic a career goal as aspiring to a Top-10 hit.

    It seems like my pals spent most of their time on mundane stuff like consistent dye lots and overseas manufacturing. Is dealing with international trade something you learn in tailoring class in Bountiful, BC?

  58. I think there could be an offbeat reality show hit with Project Runway – Prairie Edition.

  59. Reminds me of “Tim Gunn’s Guide to Polygamist Style,” where he redefines the Prairie Dress:

  60. Anon @ 7:28 – yes there was a canadian girl there, one of the blackmores. she wasn’t visiting her grandmother, she had been married to warren when she was 13. she turned 18 after the raid. she’s a case i wish the feds would look very closely at, or at least arizona. i can’t find a record of her “grandmother” being at the YFZ, but she has at least 1 sister who was also married to warren. there are several other blackmore girls who are the daughters of macrae blackmore who were married to warren. i just think someone needs to do something about it over in arizona instead of sticking their head in the sand and if they aren’t, they need to send warren to texas to face the piper here.

  61. As I said, I was reeling that off from memory, so I’m sure you’re both right and there was only one girl from Bountiful at the ranch. But regardless, it seems to me that Warren Jeffs had a LOT to do with Bountiful’s school.

    And you’re right, PT. That is sexual trafficking and ought to be fully investigated.

  62. Greetings, I had not seen the Tim Gunn video — priceless. Thanks for that.

  63. GFNY that style guide omygawd YESSSSS but I’m not giving up my wallyworld clodhoppers

  64. Aubergine. That’s all I can say. Aubergine.

  65. ProudTexan,
    Your comment about the girl from Bountiful sounds much more plausible. I had heard that she was married off at the YFZ as a child bride.

    I read somewhere that the real reason she was there on the ranch was just to “visit her grandmother”.

    I must have read that explanation in an article by Brooke Adams and I guess I believed it because Willie said it was so.

  66. Isn’t aubergine color the same as eggplant? I don’t remember seeing any of the ladies in aubergine. I just remember lemon, lime, rose, robin egg blue, azure. etc.

    I’ve never seen the color aubergine in a basket of Easter eggs.

  67. First time I’ve seen the Tim Gunn video, too.

    I’m dying here.

    It’s funnier than heck, especially when you know the personal backstory behind so many of those faces.

  68. I’ve thought the dresses would be nice, fairly comfortable jumpers with no sleeves and a better fit. Of course I LIKE the long skirts. (I like the feel of fabric swishing around my ankles.) 😀

  69. Instead of a high school girl deciding with her parents which college to attend, Warren Jeffs decides which of his cronies gets to stick his dick into her.
    ======================================================
    Alin: Which is nice but considering that Warren Jeffs has nothing to do with the founders of this school system that split off from his particular sect is irrelevant.

    ………………

    What is at the top of this page, Alin? The word FLDS TEXAS and a photo of Warren Jeffs. Your attempt to use the alleged Bountiful school in Canada to prove the YFZ ranch children in Texas are being educated is what is irrelevant.

  70. Amen Anon E Mouse!!!

    Alin can’t get stuff straight, like the fact that Keate is charged with a 1st degree felony, punishable with 5 to 99 years or life in prison. I vote for 99 because I think that is technically longer than a life sentence in texas. at 99 years, you’d have to serve 49.5 before you’d be eligible for parole. keate’s already 55 years old or so, so that would make him be in prison until he was over 100. That’d be perfectly fine with me.

  71. Aubergine is French for eggplant, yes. It wouldn’t be in an Easter basket because it’s not a pastel. I’ve seen them in that color, especially the older women. I noticed because it’s one of my favorite colors, especially for fall or winter.

  72. Brooke posted Willie and the Prosecutions comments after the sentencing.

    Brooke could have had so much fun with this, I’ll help her..

    ———————

    Highlights of the Willie:

    1. “Bittersweet”

    Yeah, Raymond could have turned states evidence. Especially after being kicked out by the flds. Better to have him in prison and protect the other guys! So its really pretty sweet.

    2. “We will appeal to the Texas Supreme court”

    No you wont Willie.

    Hasn’t your attorney told you how it works in Texas? I refer you to txbluesman.wordpress.com, he has laid it out for you.

    3. “Just like any other town”

    Until you look closer. No High School, no college, and they have a high fence and locked gate to keep the prairie skirts from jumping over and skipping town, as well as that pesky bed in the Temple.

    No other town in America has a high fence and Temple bed, Willie. Nor fake marriages of young girls, some such as this one married twice by 15. Oh wait Tony Alamo had such a get up, but isnt it odd, he was sentenced to 175 years in prison last week! For him it was just pure bitter. God have mercy on his soul!

    4. “Thousands of victims” –

    Hrrmmmmm, Ok, he said it twice but didn’t clarify. Is he talking about the FLDS thousands that were paying for your attorneys “but” are rejected by Warren (and God, of course, per Warren), or the thousands who were intending to move to Texas but now have second and third thoughts, or the 200 who they told local people was all that were there?

    Not sayin that you are lying but when you make a whopper at least make a reference to who you are speaking.

  73. Yeah, the “thousands” got me, too. There were only 700 or so people at YFZ, not even one thousand. So no matter how you exaggerate the raid, it won’t add up to a thousand.

    And then there’s the logic problem: if removing all the children was wrong, then everything related to the raid was wrong. Um, no. Not only was the investigation not wrong, but the scotus judge specifically said in comments on the ruling to return the children that there was enough evidence to continue an investigation. Black and white thinking is a hallmark of dysfunctional thinking.

  74. just wondering. duane was banned for trolling and having no new ideas in a year. Could someone be banned for trolling and posting in ignorance for well over a year ?? Not that I would mention any names, but…

  75. Not to mention the fact that if these men are convicted, CPS will be upheld in their assessment, because it means that many, many of these kids were living in homes where child sexual assault was an acceptable practice.

    Raymond Jessop, for example, had 29.

  76. Stamp I’ve decided that I love you. 🙂

    I don’t understand how Willie can sit for days and days right inside these courtrooms and still not get it. In his mind the crime was the raid. Huh??

    Question: When all is said and done and they are able to match up some of the parents to some of the kids left behind at the creek will these “parents” be charged for abandonment?

    Does anyone know if Keith Dutson was Parley Jeffs Dutsons father?

  77. walton – i don’t have a parley jeffs dutson at all. any idea what his mother’s name is?

  78. A few things about Weird Willie’s comments that struck me:
    “They used the same witnesses in the trial tha they used to put together the hoax.”

    WTH? Still running with that particular fantasy, eh? Too bad it’s your delusion because if it was true you’d undoubtedly have proof somewhere.

    NO VICTIMS?!?!?

    EVERY 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16 year old girl married off by Warren Jeffs decree is a victim you moronic abuser! Just because THEY can’t believe it yet it doesn’t mean they aren’t victims. I am confident the majority of them will understand just how victimized they’ve been before they die.

    “THOUSANDS of victims created by the state.”

    Yeah, that one sprang right out too. My first thought; “This guy eats Hyperbole O’s every morning, doesn’t he?”

    “No weapons on the ranch.”

    WHAT? WTH is he talking about. There were plenty of weapons on the ranch and, from what I understand, plenty in the temple. Now they don’t seem to me to have been illegal or the type to go out and create mayhem and bloodshed with (ie no uzis or ak57s) but weapons indeed there were.

    (And a side question, I don’t recall “weapons” being a reason the children were removed. Did I miss something?)

    “They removed children without even determining if they were members of the FLDS.”

    First of all, DUH! Being a member of the FLDS is not an actionable offense anymore than being a member of the Westbrook Baptist Haters is. (Granted, being a member of either is felony stupid, but we don’t actually charge people for felony stupid unless it is committed alongside a REAL crime.)

    Secondly, was he REALLY trying to imply there were non-FLDS members on the ranch?

    “The State of Texas said there was no justification….”

    Sigh, stupid is as stupid says. The State of Texas said there wasn’t enough evidence of “imminent harm” to justify removing the children brought before it in that particular suit. It didn’t say anything about the remaining 400+ children or about the investigation at all. (moron!)

    “Abuse of law enforcement abuse?”

    What is that even supposed to mean?

    “Human rights were violated…”

    Yes they were, by men like you.

    “Double standard?!?”

    What double standard?

    And what was he talking about with a hand selected grand jury? Can anyone enlighten me?

    I think Willie would do the FLDS a lot more good if he could realize the American public is not his brainwashed neighbors and friends and a lot of us recognize baseless propaganda and outright lies when we hear them.

  79. “Question: When all is said and done and they are able to match up some of the parents to some of the kids left behind at the creek will these “parents” be charged for abandonment?”

    If the children were safe and provided for I don’t think a case for abandonment could be made. However Parley Dutson’s parents should definitely be charged for child abandonment AND sued by the parents of the girl he killed. All the other lost boys parents should be charged too, in my opinion.

  80. Alright Walton and Stamp enough man crush stuff…

    Walton almost no one gets charged with abandonment anymore. Endangerment maybe, abandonment almost never.

  81. i found parley, he’s the son of bygnal dutson and sylvia johnson. to the best of my knowledge, neither are at the yfz.

  82. Why Thanks Walton

    (Ron – I am pretty sure Walton is a she so dont fret!)

    And there were other points that Willie brought up that I didnt touch on, but Rebeckah did.

    One we both missed was his complaint of armed officers present at the trial.

    DUH! Well, Willies brother DEE was found sneaking up on Sam Brower, and shots were fired near other litigants.

    Willie is lucky they didnt follow him with a double barrelled shotgun pointed at him.

    And sorry you dont like other court decorums, Willie, just because you are a flds thug mobster -slash -enforcer doesnt mean you get your way in a court of law. Actually things are looking “Not Rosy” for you.

    Too bad the FLDS doesnt fly an American flag, they could have it at half mast to mourn the loss of their lies.

    The Truth Prevailed.

  83. Stamp – really Walton is a she?

  84. Yeah, Walton stands for “Notlaw” and I am 90% sure.

    Love Waltons posts, too!

  85. ProudTexan – Parley Jeffs Dutson is the “lost” boy that killed then raped his girlfriend while high at a party. His parents are:

    Father: Bygnal Merlin Dutson

    Mother: Sylvia Johnson Dutson

  86. “Raymond Jessop, for example, had 29.” And we have photos of him in his own kitchen, snuggling up to a girl younger than some of his kids. So it’s not like that part of life was hidden from them.

  87. Rebeckah, I love your expression “felony stupid” … if stupid really were a felony, Willie would be serving 99 years for a 1st degree offense.

  88. @Betty – Raymond Jessop had 29 what? I got lost in this discussion.

  89. That was the number of children quoted upstream. I don’t really know how many kids he has. I’ve seen different numbers quoted in articles and I never know if they are counting his natural children and/or the reassigned children.

  90. I’ve got 13 natural kids and 11 step kids. That doesn’t count Spiritual Unity. If Spirit exists, he’d have 12 step kids.

  91. lol, Connie I wish I could claim credit for it but I heard it used by some law enforcement person on tv once I loved it myself. It certainly fits Willie and certain others, doesn’t it? 😀

  92. Brooke Adams blog has recorded interviews by Prosecutor Erik Nichols and WeeWillie Jessop. I was struck by Jessop’s insistence that the YFZ Raunch is equal to any other American community one finds throughout these United States. Really, WeeWillie you wouldn’t be kidding us along with that claim, now would you? You see I have never had to go into a covert community before and I am sure the differences would be striking, for instance:

    A.) One school and no access or school bus to attend a public education system.

    B.) One Temple to worship in and only one exclusive religious sect present to practice my faith.

    C.) No elected governance, just ‘One Man Rule’ with a Bishop F. Merril Jessop who decides all civil and religious questions, devoid of nearby municipal, county or state influences.

    D.) No private property in the land to call my own and everything is administered communally based upon needs and wants decided by the bishop.

    E.) Freedom of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is strickly contingent upon what the FLDS Church has decided to provide to you not unlike say a military based recruit or prisoner in a penal system.

    Hhhmmm…..WeeWillie seems to be lying once again in comparing an FLDS community as being no different from any other American community, he must be thinking like a military base or a prison.

    Next time I visit an new American community I am going to stop on the edge of town and ring their callbox to see if it’s OK to visit their cemetery.

  93. 🙂 Walton is a she. And if you spell Walton backwards it spells NotLaw.

    Thanks LadieSadie and everyone for checking the list for Parleys parents.

    Willie was talking about being a “peaceful” group. Willie forgot about the time they were transporting gun parts into Canada.

    And if my memory serves me right there were a whole lot of missing guns in Utah or Arizona.

    And if you put this information together with them dealing with Pembina Shell Band (who is affiliated with some members of the Possee Comitatus) and other known groups) it doesn’t really look like a safe group.

    And wasn’t it Willie who threatened Mark Shurtleff?

  94. CalJim – you mean you don’t have to stop at a locked gate and ring a bell before you visit all cemeteries in America?

  95. Proudtexan I would think that most communities would pay there respects by making their cemetery a focal point of their community, with rose gardens, seasonal flowers, fountains, memorial flames to honor their veterans, civil servants, civic leaders and famed native sons and daughters. Veterans Day, Fourth of July, Christmas, Memorial Day, Easter Sunrise services at the FLDS enclaves are not even celebrated and there is not a token flag pole to wave the American and Texas flags over the honored dead, they’re plots are rather plain and sparse.

    Where do they go to picnic at the YFZ Ranch? Seems like they overlooked the penal exercise yard and military drill field. There aren’t any basketball courts, baseball diamonds, soccer fields or play yard equipment or swimming pool. Probably hoeing the garden, milking the cows and sweeping up sawdust and scraps of material is their recreation.

  96. That’s interesting, Proud Texan. So 13 natural kids and 9 wives? That seems low for the FLDS.

  97. Well, I’m on a roll at misstating numbers today (blame it on the cough syrup). According to the Trib, “Jessop has one legal wife and approximately eight spiritual wives and 22 biological children and stepchildren, according to the state’s evidence.”

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13743170

    That really doesn’t change my point. If ten of these men are convicted the state may have indirectly proved that half the children at the ranch were living in homes where child sexual abuse was being practiced.

  98. And that being the case GFNY the CPS has some explaining to do! Why were these children returned to this environment? Does Texas CPS return EVERY child they removed back to homes where child sexual abuse is practiced?

  99. And that being the case GFNY the CPS has some explaining to do! Why were these children returned to this environment? Does Texas CPS return EVERY child they removed back to homes where child sexual abuse is practiced?
    =============================================
    In a lot of homes yes. What they do is file for a restraining order against the accused rather then remove the children.

    That really doesn’t change my point. If ten of these men are convicted the state may have indirectly proved that half the children at the ranch were living in homes where child sexual abuse was being practiced.
    =====================================================
    Aye and about half the children were from homes where no one was being abused or neglected.

  100. Alin assumes individual families in individual residences typical of americamn suburbia, the flds had large buildings on the compound that housed more than one family. Alin is misinformed as usual.

  101. Given a choice, Alin, I would rather see children removed from innocent homes during a period of investigation than see children kept in unsafe homes at any time.

    It’s not an easy question at any time. Every time CPS visits the home of a suspected abuser, they have to make a snap decision which pits a child’s safety against his parents’ rights. I don’t envy them that at all.

    In New York and New Jersey, CPS’ failing has been that they don’t do enough to get kids out of bad homes. It’s led to some horrible train wrecks. (I know Bill Medvecky says otherwise, but that’s just a self-delusion to justify his own behavior in his eyes—isn’t good for him or the people who lap it up.)

    Remember, we are looking at events in hindsight. Neither LE nor CPS had any clue what they were getting into when they first knocked at that (locked) gate. Perhaps they overreacted in their judgment call, but perhaps not—the point is, it required a snap decision with no automatically “right” answer.

    On the flip side, the evidence (dictations, photos, girls’ writing) seems to indicate there was a systematic pattern of child sexual abuse at the ranch. I’m not talking about the evidence admissible in court, but the evidence we’ve all read here and elsewhere. (I’ll never be a juror in these cases, so I’m free to consider everything, not just what is narrowly admissible.)

    I support returning children to non-abusive parents as fast as is possible. But it takes time to determine that, even in single-family cases. The large number of children at YFZ and the high profile of the case made every step difficult—from getting them into temporary shelter to interviews to placement. We can only thank God that there weren’t more problems and more delays.

  102. I’m currently reading Daphne Bramham’s book, The Secret Lives of Saints: Child Brides and Lost Boys in Canda’s Polygamous Mormon Sect. (Bramham is a journalist with The Vancouver Sun.)

    She makes reference to the “Sons of Helemon” as a private FLDS militia (pertinent passage below). Has anyone else heard of this?

    “…the Sons of Helemon–Jeffs’s private armed militia of boys as young as twelve who patrol the streets [of Colorado City/Hilldale]. They’re the religious police on the lookout for strangers–particularly journalists–and for any one who might be disobeying the prophet. They’re armed because it’s America, where private militias are legal and carrying guns a constitutional right.” (pp.162-163)

  103. You might enjoy Daphne’s new story in the Vancouver Sun, here:

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13804789

    Dr. Susan Stickevers teaches at SUNY Stony Brook (as I may have mentioned, all the best people are from New York). Her resume is absolutely top-drawer. She’s also VP of AAAP.

  104. Thanks, GFNY. I’ve read it and posted it on the AAAP news link site (links to all kinds of references on polygamy). Boots also has a post on the TripleAP blog with links to research Susan has provided. Excellent resources!

  105. “Aye and about half the children were from homes where no one was being abused or neglected.”

    Which would indicate that at least half of the children returned shouldn’t have been returned.

  106. Where is Raymond Jessop? Is he in the San Angelo jail?

  107. As far as anyone knows Walton , he is still in El Dorado jail.

  108. I was never aware of the Sons of Helaman being anything more than a social event for young boys and learning to follow orders, but I was never a “Son of Helaman”. I doubt any are armed.

  109. I asked that very question today Walton and he’s still in Eldorado.

  110. That post was by Cement on the Sons of Helaman.

  111. Thanks, Cement, for the info.

  112. Hey Cement,, do you have any idea how it is Willie is in charge of everything?? I mean he seems to be speaking for the entire Flds , so I figured Warren called him to duty! To keep Flds in line, mouths shut, and let them all know , how easy it would be for him to escort them out of FLDS.

  113. http://www.texasescapes.com/TexasHillCountryTowns/Eldorado-Texas.htm

    At this link is a picture of the “old jail” and in the background is a picture of the courthouse.

    When they did the remodeling they put the jail in the courthouse right? I was looking for a list of inmates and they must not provide that for the public right?

    Who is watching the jail?

    From what I understood the Sons of Helaman were a group of kids that did the spying for Warren.

  114. I believe Carolyn in her book referred to the Sons of Helamon. They were sort of Warren’s “enforcers” who would inform on families/individuals who were not following all of Warren’s edicts. But I didn’t get the impression that they were armed.

  115. Greetings, the link you provided didn’t take me to an article by Daphne, it took me to some story on the SL Trib web site about a mother giving her baby to drug dealers. HUH?

  116. My understanding about the “Sons of Helaman” is along the same lines as what Carol just wrote.

    I thought the boys were more spies, bullies and mini thugs.

    I also have heard them referred to as the “God Squad” in the local lingo.

  117. Greetings: both my daughters are engineering majors

    ………………

    My stepdaughter is an engineer. Her first job was at Boeing designing parts for fighter jets.

    Are there any FLDS girls, or boys for that matter, getting opportunities like this?

  118. No, Anon, they’re busy trying to make babies and come up with the latest burlap bag runway fashion. 😉

  119. Sorry about that, Anon. At least I didn’t link you to my grocery order.

    (I’m blaming it on the cough syrup.)

    Here’s the correct link:

    http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Bramham+hard+evidence+polygamy+damage+bountiful/2223717/story.html

  120. Thanks for the kudos, Greetings !

  121. Susan MD –

    It’s good to see someone bringing science and things like empirical data to the table. This is such an emotional issue and too often folks lose sight of the fact that actual studies have been done.

    It’s funny, being a liberal I’m the type inclined to argue for the decriminalization of consenting adult polygamy. However, having looked at the data, I’ve changed my position.

  122. I agree with Ron. Susan MD has provided us with scholarly evidence to counter the drivel posted here by a few trolls who just want to distract from the evidence. I’ve only read a few of the studies so far, but my heart just breaks for the women and children.

    I’m about halfway through Bramham’s book and think Winston Blackmore should be on the same cellblock as Warren Jeffs. What a monster lies behind that chubby, good ol’ boy exterior.

  123. Dear FLDS Texas
    The article linked by Susan the MD at vancouversun is an important one – could we not have an exerpt of the article, plus the link as a new thread in which those of us who find empirical based information could add to that individual thread – similar to the threads attached to the various legal documents? I think this would be great and easier to find particular since we have been informed that some of the apostates send doubting FLDS to this site for information?

  124. Ron,
    I agree that there is an argument to be made for let adults do what they want and decriminalize (I too am a liberal) but after nearly two years of following this issue and asking pro-polygamists to present positive information on the benefits of polygamy I have seen nothing to counter the negative affects, other than Duane What -if sending us to a web site of a single individual gushing about wanting a second wife.

    So until somebody makes an argument for polygamy that goes beyond the statement it is my religious right I am totally against decriminalization.

  125. There is abundant medical data which indicates that women and children living in polygyny have poor health outcomes.
    Women in polygynous relationships have a higher incidence of cervical cancer and fibromyalgia, as well as psychiatric difficulties, including depression necessitating psychiatric hospitalization, anxiety disorder, low self esteem, and somatization disorder, which is very difficult to treat. An increased risk of domestic violence, incest,and sexual abuse is observed in polygynous families.
    Children born in polygyny have poorer grades, higher truancy rates, lower self esteem, increased risk for alcoholism/ substance abuse, and a higher incidence of antisocial personality disorder resulting in arrests. The average polygynous father spends less than 2 hours per week with each child.
    These findings are universally seen in all cultures wherein polygyny is practiced.
    Given the ill effects of polygyny on society, polygamy should not be legalized. You simply cannot argue with science.
    Polygyny is not unique to Arizona, Utah, and Texas.
    You need look no further than NYC, where polygyny is practiced by Muslims… that is how I gained my experience with women living in polygyny.

  126. Ron in Houston: It’s funny, being a liberal I’m the type inclined to argue for the decriminalization of consenting adult polygamy. However, having looked at the data, I’ve changed my position.

    ………………………………

    Honestly, if Jack and Janet and Chrissy wanted to set up housekeeping together in my neighborhood, I wouldn’t give a fig.
    But when it’s within a closed society, ruled by one man, where only the men are allowed multiple partners, teenagers are parceled out as child brides, men have sex with their nieces and stepdaughters, the surplus men and boys are expelled, and education and medical care are at third world levels, that’s a different story.

  127. Wanda Barzee has pleaded guilty to kidnapping and has apologized to Elizabeth Smart.

    “Brian David Mitchell, a one-time itinerant street preacher, is accused of taking Smart as a wife in order to fulfill a religious prophecy included in a 27-page manifesto he wrote called “The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah.”

    And how is this different from Warren Jeffs and his cohorts claiming God has told them to take 14 year old girls as polygamous wives? Will the FLDS supporters be blogging that he is being persecuted for his religious beliefs?

  128. I honestly think that the last thing the fundamentalist Mormons want is a legal polygamist wedding certificate. It would give the women too many legal rights and put all the wives on equal footing legally. If it were available, they would not make use of it. What they want is no criminal prosecution for polygamy and under aged assigned “marriage”.

    Just my opinion.

  129. Betty I completely agree with your point, similarly the FLDS Church formed the UEPTrust thinking they wanted a charitable non-profit trust and the laws and regulations that it imposes is far from the outside influence they want or would allow.

    What we just saw about FLDS members serving on a jury against one of their own will subject them to being sworn testimony(s) and that’s one of the last legal situations for a covert sect to invite/agree to be a participant. So Willie Jessops appearance earlier this year with the Schleicher County Commissioners and asking to be empaneled on the jury ended up not being in their own best interests.

  130. I like the idea of a research to outcomes of Polygamy site. And Susan, thanks for the research you’ve done. I think I may have read an article by you or referencing your work long before I came to this site. It was about polygynous wives of Muslims in New York and how trapped they felt. It talked about their problems with second or third wives but not feeling like they could protest because they were afraid they might be deported. Was that you?

  131. Rebeckah,
    I just participated in the article in the Vancouver Sun. I initially became interested in the effect of polygyny on the family about 12 yrs. ago when I had to assist a Muslim female patient with her divorce action when her husband decided to take a second wife. I reported to the local mosque that second marriages were taking place, and they essentially dismissed me. I was not involved with the other article which you describe, which was published in the NY Times. There is quite a bit of Muslim polygyny in the NY Metro Area – all underground, of course.

  132. The problem is worldwide. Article on Somali women in Finland — 40% living as single parents because of polygamy. http://is.gd/4Y91q

  133. “Aye and about half the children were from homes where no one was being abused or neglected.”

    Which would indicate that at least half of the children returned shouldn’t have been returned.
    ========================================================
    Not really. The first thing CPS normally does is remove the suspected abuser from the home, not the children.

  134. Given a choice, Alin, I would rather see children removed from innocent homes during a period of investigation than see children kept in unsafe homes at any time.
    ================================================
    I would never go for that. Our Constitution is pretty clear about our children’s 4th amendment rights. You remove a children after an investigation, if warranted, never before.

    There is risks inherant in living in a free society but the possibility of big brother government intrusion in our daily lives makes the opposite intolerable to freedom loving americans.

  135. Someone needs to tell Brooke Adams of the Tribune the questionare she has a copy of is the jury summons that was sent to all 300 jurors in Raymond’s case and the same on in Keate’s case too.

    I believe is a standard form for all Texas juries.

  136. “Not really. The first thing CPS normally does is remove the suspected abuser from the home, not the children.”

    That might have been a problem in this case, since the mothers were guilty of failing to protect their children in many of the cases too. So if you remove both Mom and Dad, who is left to watch the children.

    (This is, of course, ignoring the fact that CPS does NOT simply try to remove the suspected abuser from the home.) Fact is its very much handled on a case by case and worker by worker basis. I believe CPS did their best until the court ruling that some of the children had been removed improperly. Then they folded completely and there are children on the ranch now that I believe are going through mental, physical and potentially sexual abuse. I also fear that the girls are being taken elsewhere to be married underage too. You see, any church that has Lying for the Lord as one of its basic tenets is going to find it hard to get people to believe “We aren’t practicing under age marriages anymore.” especially when the person saying it claims he has no authority to speak for anyone.

  137. I see, Susan. Well I guess I thought the NY Times article was by you because the information was basically the same. I guess it just goes to show that there isn’t much of a difference in polygyny, regardless of where you practice it or which “sacred” writing you use to justify it.

  138. Hey guys,

    I just wanted you to know that we are already in the process of adding a dedicated research page on the AAAP website, where we will be posting the empirical medical research provided by the MD, for your convenience.

  139. I thought the other questionnaire had to do with WJ’s case?

  140. Walton
    William Roy Jessop is trying to get his homestead inside those pearly locked gates call Zion AKA YFZ Ranch.

  141. Then they folded completely and there are children on the ranch now that I believe are going through mental, physical and potentially sexual abuse. I also fear that the girls are being taken elsewhere to be married underage too.
    ========================================================
    If you know of any by all means report it. Children are removed due to evidence; not some random person on the street fears.

  142. Walton the jail you had a link to is the appraisal district office.
    It is the old jail house.

    The jail is in the second story. It even has place for a hangman noose. It is a scary place.

    The new jail was built in the 80’s and is on the other side of the courthouse.

  143. Like Dr. Stickevers I was activated by an event here in New York—a horrible fire in the Bronx which killed members of an African polygamous immigrant family. I realized it is deeply hypocritical to expect immigrants to adhere to one standard while we tolerate tens of thousands of blonde, blue-eyed, native-born polygamists in our western states.

    We like to believe that being “judgmental” is bad, but that’s ridiculous in a society based on science. Observation, assessment, correlating and testing hypotheses—they’re all acts of judgment.

    Morality is not a belief system—it’s a code of conduct that seeks to limit harm. When science measures the outcome of behavior, it is making a scientific assessment and a moral recommendation (“this hurts people; we can’t permit it”).

    Dr. Stickevers brings the first real scientific information to this discussion—a factual refutation of the argument that polygamy and monogamy are moral equals. Thanks!

  144. Thanks, Boots, and great idea.

  145. Thanks Greetings,

    We are very blessed she is willing to serve.

    I’m not a researcher, I’m and activist and an advocate but I knew the research had been done. This was definitely an answer to prayer.

  146. “I believe is a standard form for all Texas juries.”

    You are correct.

  147. Thanks Anonymous. The very first google map I found was actually facing someones house.

    Is Raymond Jessop being held at the jail in Eldorado?

  148. Where is Willie E. Timpson Jessop? Is he in a jail somewhere?

    And what about those Allred boys?

  149. Alin, all over the country CPS has processes for temporary out-of-home placement to protect kids during investigation. If you can find anywhere that the courts have ruled the process itself unconstitutional please cite.

    Or maybe Ron can just weigh in here and save us the bother.

  150. I don’t know where William Timpson aka Jessop is now, I don’t think he’s at the ranch though. There are some Allred’s at the ranch, one of Warren’s daughter is married to an Allred.

    Raymond is still in Eldorado as of yesterday.

  151. that one used is Schleicher County is the same one they use in Tom Green.

  152. Thanks again. I checked the San Angelo jail bookings and he hasn’t been listed there. Would it be listed someplace?

    Would Sheriff Doran be watching him?

  153. Alin, all over the country CPS has processes for temporary out-of-home placement to protect kids during investigation. If you can find anywhere that the courts have ruled the process itself unconstitutional please cite.
    =================================================
    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/623097/Texas-Supreme-Court-Ruling-FLDS-Children

  154. Read the question AGAIN A-li-n-sack-o, “If you can find anywhere that the courts have ruled the PROCESS ITSELF UNCONSTITUTIONAL please cite.”

    Providing a link to the TSC ruling in no way address that and is again one of your lying red herrings.

  155. I read that study on the effects of polygamy. It seems that the greatest risk factor affecting the women and children is the educational level of the father.

    It’s using the logical fallacy of ignoring a common cause.

    Example:
    Over the course of several weeks the needles from the pine trees along the Wombat river fell into the water. Shortly thereafter, many dead fish washed up on the river banks. When the EPA investigated, the owners of the Wombat River Chemical Company claimed that is it was obvious that the pine needles had killed the fish. Many local environmentalists claimed that the chemical plant’s toxic wastes caused both the trees and the fish to die and that the pine needles had no real effect on the fish.

  156. In the Interest of Cooper (Kansas 1980)

    Parent’s interest in custody of their children is a liberty interest which has received considerable constitutional protection; a parent who is deprived of custody of his or her child, even though temporarily, suffers thereby grievous loss and such loss deserves extensive due process protection.

  157. No Alin, there are many studies on the effect of polygyny on children, > 10 studies I can recall. It is not simply the educational level of the father – the polygynous father also spent less than two hrs. with his children each week, and the polygynous family was frequently impoverished, with a higher incidence of domestic violence, as well as marital dissatisfaction.
    Your reference to wombats is interesting, however.
    How many wives do you have, Alin?
    and where have you been all morning?

  158. Polygamy: The best system ever developed for keeping women and children poor and the women subjugated. Spoken by a very wise man early in Utah’s history.

  159. Oh horse hockey. I have a story that happened to friends of ours, here in Texas.

    They are our age and had a #4 ‘whoops’ baby. After he was born, they doted on him. The father would take him to his construction office on Saturday while he did paper-work. The mother would sleep while the baby slept. Being as the youngest of the other three was in college, she didn’t quite have the energy she had with the other ones.

    When the boy was three, he went out the window while the mother slept. He was walking down the road when law enforcement found him. When they asked him where he was going he said, “I have to go to work.”

    This triggered CPS to pick up the child and put him in custody. Our friends hired a lawyer, but did not get their child back for about a week.

    They didn’t turn into Uncle Biles or anti-Government zealots. They were thankful the LEOs and CPS found him instead of mass murders. They weren’t too pleased with having to pay the lawyer bills, but they did realizing is was very necessary.

    The trigger in this case was the boy saying he had to go to work. They didn’t remove the father. They removed the child.

    He started college this year, and suffered no apparent trauma from his week away from his family. They are still embarrassed but admit their culpability.

  160. It is not simply the educational level of the father – the polygynous father also spent less than two hrs. with his children each week, and the polygynous family was frequently impoverished, with a higher incidence of domestic violence, as well as marital dissatisfaction.
    ==========================================================
    If I was to agree with you for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that that sounds very much like the polygamous relationships that a lot of typical adults engage in when they go barhopping every weekend or so. What are you going to outlaw? Casual sex?

  161. Concur Alewife!
    Rebeckah, my experience working with women in polygynous marriages deals with women primarily from Pakistan, only one of my patients was from Africa. The NY Times article was on African polygyny, from the Ivory Coast and Mali. The NY Times article followed the fire which killed some of the polygynous African family’s children, which GFNY references.

  162. Alin said :
    “If I was to agree with you for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that that sounds very much like the polygamous relationships that a lot of typical adults engage in when they go barhopping every weekend or so. What are you going to outlaw? Casual sex?”
    Alin, people having casual sex that I know of use contraceptives and don’t have hordes of children.

  163. Really Susan? I thought Miele had a friend who had a #whoops baby? Though they was married it certainly sounded to me like accidents can and will happen.

  164. Alin,
    You should read the articles in their entirety. You obviously have not. Polygyny and the large families it produces are hardly accidental.

  165. Sigh: Alin again is under or mis-informed.

  166. Alin, a #4 whoops baby in a marriage isn’t the result of bed-hopping and you know it. Stop being specious.

    (For the record, if I could bring back social sanctions against adultery, I would.)

    And LadySadie is right—you just ran up a ruling where they didn’t like the details. Doesn’t address the constitutional premise. Try it again ex specimen, non ex exempoator.

  167. Why let the facts get in the way of a good argument?

  168. My point was,if there ever was a bogus situation, my friends were in it.

    The child wasn’t traumatized. In response to this situation, they taught him to give his full name, address and phone number to any LEO.

    They could have sued and thrown good money after bad, I guess.
    But chose instead to direct the money to the child’s education.

    In other words, since they weren’t criminals, they didn’t act like criminals.

  169. Boots says AAAP is going to post the research gathered by Dr. Stickevers. I strongly suggest we slog through it and then discuss it on the basis of fact, not presupposition.

  170. Great story, Miele. My best regards to your friends for handing things the right way.

  171. Rattle, their wisdom shows in their children. BTW, they are also members of a minority. They could have chosen to yell discrimination, but they didn’t.

    We all felt for them, thinking, “There, by the grace of G-d goes I.” (Or however you say it.)

  172. Antoinette Nicole Davis “seemed to be getting her life back together” so Shaniya Davis’ father felt he ought to let her have an opportunity to be involved in raising her daughter. Not the whole story, surely: CBS quoted a police officer as saying, “There have been major DSS issues with this family – who has custody, switching back and forth.”

    I’m not going to bang on either the dad or DSS here, because they didn’t sell or kill this girl. But it’s a tragedy and national disgrace that Antoinette Davis ever got access to her daughter. Frankly I’d rather take the chance that I might temporarily lose my own kids than see another murder like that happen again, anywhere.

  173. The joke, Miele, is that the FLDS are NOT any kind of minority. I think they get a free pass because they’re blonde and blue-eyed and they play right into our national myth with their prairie dresses, vegetable gardens, and blonde braids. Like someone making a porn movie out of a Laura Ingalls Wilder book.

  174. That’s a great analogy, GFNY.

  175. Well, I read duane’s become BileMs permanent bullfrog croaking from his cesspool echoing lies, innuendos and outright falsehoods all designed to keep him as ‘King of the FLDS Kleptomaniac’, no matter how much you proclaim them duane your still just another Gentile from Babylon. How do you like your new role as a felony frog fighter, committed to rationalizing all forms of felonies as innocent misunderstandings and tough breaks. I trust your hoppy and croak while the stench infused Medvecky Swamp fills your lungs.

    Don’t worry Pliggy will wallow in the nearby pig sty and keep you company and you always have Grumpy Bile to teach you.

    Did you hear the joke about Warren, a pig and a frog go into a bar?

    The pig orders a mud ‘n’ your eye and Warren turns to the frog and says wouldn’t this joke be funnier if Bill Medvecky was in it?

  176. Alin: Not really. The first thing CPS normally does is remove the suspected abuser from the home, not the children.

    …………………….

    Not in Washington State. The child is removed from the UNSAFE environment and placed with a temporary foster family.

    In a recent case involving a child who was starved and abused by her stepmother for years, while her father stood by and did nothing, believe me nobody was screaming that their parental rights were denied when they lost custody of the abused child and another one they had.

  177. Not in Texas either. In Texas, the child is removed until investigations are completed. There is however a change being talked about in Texas, that the abuser be removed.
    The problem with the abuser being removed, is there is no surety that the person will stay away from the home, till investigation is finished.

  178. Heah, did any of you see that frog hop by and put money in his parking meter? He must have been afraid of getting toad. I think he came out of that bar.

  179. CAJim, very funny. You been hitting the cough syrup again?

  180. Don’t you even want to know what the frog ordered in the bar with the prophet watching him?

    A plain croak.

  181. LOL 🙂

  182. So the bar door swings open and in walks BileM, with a duck on his head. The Bartender looks at Warren, pliggy and duane and says,”What would you like”?

    The duck says,”I’d like to get this guy off my a$$”.

  183. Was Bill feeling lucky?

  184. BileM sits down on the barstool next to the frog and the frog says,”If you kiss me right now, I will turn into a Child Bride”. Bill grabs up the frog and stuffs it into his front pocket. duane cries out,”I thought you loved Child Brides” and BileM says,”I do but a frog can keep me from feeling nuts”.

    The frog replies,”BIGOT, Bigot, bigot”.

  185. “I just wanted you to know that we are already in the process of adding a dedicated research page on the AAAP website, where we will be posting the empirical medical research provided by the MD, for your convenience.”

    Thanks, Boots. I had stumbled onto the start of it, I think. I know I was reading some research on polygyny. It made me very sad and depressed and I had to go do something else for a while. This whole issue breaks my heart for the people’s lives that are so damaged.

  186. “If you know of any by all means report it. Children are removed due to evidence; not some random person on the street fears.”

    I don’t have any evidence nor would I have any way of gathering evidence. However, I believe CPS has evidence they ignored. If I’m right, the truth will come out eventually. In the meantime, I worry. I do not suggest that anyone remove children because of my fears.

  187. Later that night BileM staggers out of the bar with the duck on his head, Pliggy under his arm and duane.
    A policeman on walking patrol says,”OK what’s your story and the pig says,”I won him at the FLDS raffle”.

    A voice from BileM’s pocket, says,”Knee deep, knee deep”.

    The End.

  188. “I read that study on the effects of polygamy. It seems that the greatest risk factor affecting the women and children is the educational level of the father.”

    That’s odd because the impression I got was that the greatest risk factor was that one man has only so many hours in a day in which to give attention to his spouse(s) and children. So some are invariably shorted, which leaves them feeling unloved, unlovable, and abandoned. Looks like you’re projecting again.

  189. “He started college this year, and suffered no apparent trauma from his week away from his family. They are still embarrassed but admit their culpability.”

    Yeah, that’s strange all right, Miele. My son was removed from me for TWO WHOLE MONTHS!!! I missed him terribly and I know he missed me, but I saw him every chance I got and he had WONDERFUL foster parents. (They kept him for me when I went into the hospital to have his sister.) I too was grateful that he was being protected, even though it wasn’t a pleasant experience for me. And, oddly enough, he’s never seemed to suffer from the experience either. He’s a wonderful father with three beautiful boys.

  190. Just like to say that it’s nice to read cajIM’s humor instead of Alin’s drivel for a while. Thanks for the smile.

  191. I don’t think Alin answered the doctor’s question yet about how many wives he has …

  192. I have a feeling that A-li-n-sack-o, is one of those exed FLDS men trying to “repent” his way back into the Felony Farm.

  193. “If I was to agree with you for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that that sounds very much like the polygamous relationships that a lot of typical adults engage in when they go barhopping every weekend or so. What are you going to outlaw? Casual sex?”

    Are you honestly trying to a) compare polygamy to casual sex or even “swinging” and b) imply that anything like the majority of people practice either? Are you getting your examples from Duane or were you the one coaching Duane in his insanities?

    I don’t think casual sex, swinging, S&M and various other alternative practices are terribly healthy, but at least they aren’t breeding grounds for the consistently found problems of polygamy — particularly for children and most especially for young girls.

  194. I have a feeling Al is back in and trying to earn back his wife — or possibly A wife — since they seem to be fairly interchangable in this group. Poor Janet and that other girl — two “husbands” before they were even 16 years old!

  195. where does his IP address originate from ? Colorado City ?

  196. Could it be possible that Alin belongs to one of those polygamous groups in Collierville or Jackson, Tennessee?

  197. which groups are in Collierville and Jackson?

  198. I got a feeling, Al belongs to any group that hates freedoms and equal rights… 🙂

  199. I don’t care who or where he is. He/she likes to make sweeping generalizations about parents always being removed, and children always being traumatized. When his hand is called, he argues a menopausal baby is somehow related to swinging and going to bars.
    He/she rambles in riddles.

    Rebeckah, that must have been a hard situation. I’m glad to hear you and your son are just fine. I think the cues parents give to kids when these situations happen make the difference. You must have done it right.

    cajiM, I like the humor, too.

  200. Menopausal baby, swingers, people in bars???
    He might want to talk to Sarah Palin.

  201. FYI

    http://mohavedailynews.com/articles/2009/11/19/news/local/local6.txt

  202. Huge differences between polygamy and casual sex encounters…
    Casual sex: the woman can say no. Polygamy: do it or spend eternity in hell.
    Casual sex: one night and you don’t have to do it again. Polygamy: time and eternity, with chance of reassignment to another man to whom the woman can’t say no.
    Casual sex: you get to take all your clothes off if you want to. Polygamy: holy long underwear with gaps in appropriate places.

  203. Thank you, Miele. It was a difficult situation but the worst part for me was the fact that I’d married a man who hurt my son. I can’t fault the people trying to protect my son with what they did.

  204. The only thing I could find about polygamy in Tennessee is that former state senator John Ford once testified that he couldn’t support his kids by a former employee because he was already stretched too thin supporting his other two households: “In the hearing, Ford said he lives some days with ex-wife Tamara Mitchell-Ford and the three children they had together. On others, he said, he stays with his longtime girlfriend, Connie Mathews, and their two children.”

    “Tennessee Horny Ford” is a model of polygamist family values—he’s currently serving a 66 month Federal sentence for bribery.

    Anyone have a clue what the reference to Collierville and Jackson means?

  205. The Kansas City Star

    Burrell Mohler Sr.
    Photos | Mohler case expands
    Previous story | More gruesome allegations emerge in child-rape case
    Breaking News
    Royals to bring out powder blue hats in 2010 KC area violates federal clean air law One injured in school bus crash in south KC KCI not affected by nationwide travel malfunction NBC Action Weather | Another cool day One hurt when airliner makes emergency landing in Wichita Lee’s Summit man accused of stealing $992,000 on the job Two men sent to prison after seizure of 190 pounds of cocaine Jury convicts KC man of killing his baby son’s mother Independence man killed while crossing creek in pickup Financial outlook worsens for ATA bus system Gas leak fixed; residents back home after evacuation Haley: Chiefs receivers ‘must step up’ in Bowe’s absence United Way of Wyandotte County misses goal, will extend campaign Man charged with trying to kidnap American Royal visitor NBC Action Weather | Sun comes out Thursday afternoon, high 53 Two men sentenced in KC cocaine conspiracy Streets to close for Catholic Youth Conference MU releases 2010 football schedule Man gets 12-year sentence for purse snatching caught on police dash cam The patriarch at the center of the Mohler child sex case has lived in his basement ever since his wife found his trove of incest pornography, new documents say.

    When investigators showed up recently with a search warrant, she gave them a key to a locked file cabinet. That’s where they found magazines with names such as Family Taboo and Best of Family Secrets.

    Also taken in the search of Burrell Mohler Sr.’s house in Independence were sex toys, video recording equipment and homemade VHS tapes.

    Lafayette County Prosecutor Kellie Ritchie said Wednesday she did not know what was on the tapes.

    More charges in the ever-expanding case are expected today, adding to the 31 already filed in the rural Missouri case that has caught attention around the world.

    Sandra Mohler, the wife, told authorities she found the pornography hidden above a ceiling tile. After that, the couple have lived in separate levels of the house.

    Other items taken in the search: four computers, rifles, shotguns, pistols and adult movies, such as “Pornocchio.”

  206. Makes her husband move to the basement, but takes no steps to contact law enforcement or do anything to protect other children from the family “patriarch”.

  207. It all sounds very creepy to me Greetings.. But lots of creepy people in the world.

  208. Huge differences between polygamy and casual sex encounters…

    Casual sex: the woman can say no. Polygamy: do it or spend eternity in hell.
    =======================================================
    Heh! I’m southern baptist and I read that neither husband or wife is supposed to cutoff off each other just because they are ticked off.

    Casual sex: one night and you don’t have to do it again.
    ========================================================
    Why would anyone consider sex a chore they don’t have to do again?

    Polygamy: time and eternity, with chance of reassignment to another man to whom the woman can’t say no.
    ========================================================
    If you look at the divorce rates in the US it seems like we gots lots of reasignments going on. Or are you suggesting a woman be forced to stay with a man they don’t love?

    Casual sex: you get to take all your clothes off if you want to.
    ================================================================
    Which is true of polygamous sex. The problem is the followers of the Church of Latter Day Saints has some strange underwear which, I suspect, the majority don’t wear.

    Polygamy: See above.

  209. Remarriage is not reassignment, Alin. Difference? Divorce and remarriage: The partners chose each other, and they chose when to quit each other. Reassignment? The Prophet choses both of those at his whim with little or no explanation or warning.

  210. This just in on the Alamo child custody case.
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5juW0VYvgWdi-6dhOyst-2PEjTSTQD9C235S03

  211. Well, let’s see Bill M try to reconcile this ruling on the Alamo kids.

    Now in Bill’s defense I’d say that the Alamo cases and the FLDS cases are vastly different.

  212. “Makes her husband move to the basement, but takes no steps to contact law enforcement or do anything to protect other children from the family “patriarch”.”

    Well, in fairness to her, if it was straightforward “porn” that is present in many homes with no indication of abuse. My stepdad was addicted to the stuff, but he would NEVER have harmed any of us children.

  213. Actually Al, the LDS are required to wear their distinctive little underwear,, why don’t you get with the program man!

  214. “Huge differences between polygamy and casual sex encounters…

    Casual sex: the woman can say no. Polygamy: do it or spend eternity in hell.
    =======================================================
    Heh! I’m southern baptist and I read that neither husband or wife is supposed to cutoff off each other just because they are ticked off.”

    SURE you’re Southern Baptist! And, while they aren’t supposed to use sex as a weapon, and they are supposed to consider their partners wants and needs, that doesn’t mean that they can’t, and don’t, say “no” when they want to. And it isn’t some mortal sin if they do.

    “Casual sex: one night and you don’t have to do it again.
    ========================================================
    Why would anyone consider sex a chore they don’t have to do again?”

    People with a low libedo might consider a chore that they’d rather not do on a regular basis. Women who aren’t allowed to use birth control and want a break between children might also not was to particpate in sexual activities.

    “Polygamy: time and eternity, with chance of reassignment to another man to whom the woman can’t say no.
    ========================================================
    If you look at the divorce rates in the US it seems like we gots lots of reasignments going on. Or are you suggesting a woman be forced to stay with a man they don’t love?”

    That’s funny, Pliggy liked to use that example as if it were applicable. Of course, the big difference is that divorce takes place because one or both members of a marriage wants it whereas “reassignment” takes place because a third party (the Prophet) has decided it will.

    “Casual sex: you get to take all your clothes off if you want to.
    ================================================================
    Which is true of polygamous sex. The problem is the followers of the Church of Latter Day Saints has some strange underwear which, I suspect, the majority don’t wear.”

    Feel free to back that “suspicion” up with proof. Otherwise, it’s just some idea you have — or possibly your attempt to spread misinformation some more.

  215. Alin wrote: ” I suspect, the majority don’t wear.” Looks like alin is posting in ignorance again. I know better than you and you are wrong, again or still??

  216. GFNY,
    Apparently the area of Colliersville Tennessee has a group of “Christian polygynists”
    I found that they have their own Yahoo group, however there has not been a posting in over 6 months on their message board.

  217. Yeah, I found that yahoo group. It has one member. Reminded me of the Vermont Polygamy movement.

  218. SURE you’re Southern Baptist! And, while they aren’t supposed to use sex as a weapon, and they are supposed to consider their partners wants and needs, that doesn’t mean that they can’t, and don’t, say “no” when they want to. And it isn’t some mortal sin if they do.
    ===========================================================
    Nothing wrong with saying no if you are not in the mood. Never said otherwise.

    People with a low libedo might consider a chore that they’d rather not do on a regular basis. Women who aren’t allowed to use birth control and want a break between children might also not was to particpate in sexual activities.
    =========================================================
    Then just say no. Pffftt. If the guy has like 5 wives it’s not like he will suffer until the next day.

    Of course, the big difference is that divorce takes place because one or both members of a marriage wants it whereas “reassignment” takes place because a third party (the Prophet) has decided it will.
    ======================================================
    Which is true but even if the prophet says so one or more has to consent to it. I have no problem with adults making decisions.

    Feel free to back that “suspicion” up with proof. Otherwise, it’s just some idea you have — or possibly your attempt to spread misinformation some more.
    =========================================================
    Actually Rebeckah I don’t give a damn what Mormons wear to bed.

  219. Al,
    How many wives do you have?

  220. Sure you do Al!!! You made a BIG issue of it!!! LOL
    No one else here cares either, most people could care less what YOU wear to bed, Just DON’T be crawling in bed with an underage child!!

  221. Your a hoot Al!! LOL You give me laughter everyday, because your so dense, you can’t see the forest for the trees!

  222. Alin wrote: ” I suspect, the majority don’t wear.” Looks like alin is posting in ignorance again. I know better than you and you are wrong, again or still??
    ====================================================
    Pffftt! It was a logical fallacy.

    a) Some Mormons wear strange undergarmints.
    b) Some polygamists are Mormons

    Conclusion: All polygamists are Mormons and wear strange undergarmimts.

    Actually Al, the LDS are required to wear their distinctive little underwear,, why don’t you get with the program man!
    ==========================================================
    Teehee! Just like all Baptist women are required to submit to their husband. Good luck on that!

  223. Actually Al, the LDS are required to wear their distinctive little underwear,, why don’t you get with the program man!
    ==========================================================
    Teehee! Just like the Baptist women are required to submit to their husband. Good luck on that!

  224. Al,
    How many wives do you have ?

  225. deputydog1 I had just posted a new link over at the InSessions board about the Mohler story. The mother is now working with the authorities.

    She said that when the kids first told her she went to her “church officials”.

  226. My apologies for the double post.

  227. No one else here cares either, most people could care less what YOU wear to bed,
    ===============================================
    It was Rattle who brought it up! Here!

    Polygamy: holy long underwear with gaps in appropriate places.

    Rattle said this on November 19, 2009 at 9:35 AM

  228. Al, guess what, I know lots of baptists women, and not ONE do a thing they don’t want to do. And guess what else?? They aren’t condemened by husbands, pastor or their particular dogma that if they don’t want to have sex with their husband on a particular night, that they are going to hell… so dream on AL!

  229. In fact, I know few religious faiths they hold DAMNATION over the head of women if they don’t let the spouse control their everyday life,, other than Islam and Polygamy.

  230. It’s disrespectful and insulting for ANY male to treat of try to treat a woman as a possession!!

  231. They aren’t condemened by husbands, pastor or their particular dogma that if they don’t want to have sex with their husband on a particular night, that they are going to hell… so dream on AL!
    =======================================================
    Jesus Christ. You do know you are preaching to the chior? This is the same exact argument I brought up.

  232. I think we could get on quite well without taking the name of the Lord in vain. Shame on you alin.

  233. How come Al hasn’t answered my question regarding how many wives he has ?

  234. Shame on you, al.

  235. Cat

    He’s maxed out on fingers?

  236. “It was Rattle who brought it up! Here!

    Polygamy: holy long underwear with gaps in appropriate places.”

    But you felt strongly enough about it to post a response.

  237. “Of course, the big difference is that divorce takes place because one or both members of a marriage wants it whereas “reassignment” takes place because a third party (the Prophet) has decided it will.
    ======================================================
    Which is true but even if the prophet says so one or more has to consent to it. I have no problem with adults making decisions”

    Will somebody post for Al the dictation of Warren reassigning the woman where he makes it crystal clear that she doesn’t want to do this and he browbeats her with “This is what God wants you do to.”?

  238. Stamp,
    I guess that Al is not answering my question regarding his wives because he took a dinner break ?

  239. No, its not the same argument you brought up, because FLDS “women” according to FLDS dogma, belong to the “PROPHET” first, Not themselves, not God, not their husbands!!!
    This is MUCH different than the so called argument YOU brought up!

  240. If a woman is possesses, that’s a possession.

  241. Rebeckah that would be Susannah Barlow Jeffs who was being reassigned from Warren’s brother David Hunter Jeffs due to some misdeed on David’s part that I never figured out.

    Actually women are told that if they don’t remarry a man with the priesthood they will go to HELL. These women submit to the will of the prophet because he is playing with their eternal salvation. They believe that he holds the keys to them getting into heaven. How else would you get a 15 year old to marry a balding 55 year old? According to the kids, Keate is fugly!!!

  242. I’m not a kids and according to me Keate’s is fugly!

  243. “Actually women are told that if they don’t remarry a man with the priesthood they will go to HELL.”

    Oh no, I’m SURE you’re wrong about that. The LDS and FLDS don’t believe in hell (except for sometimes like when Joseph was trying to bring Emma back into line with HIS plan for “salivation”). No, they just get to either go to the Telestial heaven — and never see or know their family again OR they can be UTTERLY destroyed! How’s that for love and respect.

  244. Or they get to be the “sister” wives slaves in their “heaven”. But then even the lucky just get to be their “husbands” slave, so those are just slaves with slaves.

  245. I agree, some simply become slaves to the “senior” sister wife. Babs is a good example of that.

  246. I don’t know if any of you know it, but the word in the Old Testament for “sister wife” in Hebrew is t’zara which translated means rival, enemy, or opponent. Enlightening, isn’t it?

  247. Very enlightening Cat!!!

  248. I find it interesting that so many polgynists try to claim that polygyny is Biblical and then fail to notice that all the polygyny stories are about anger, jealousy, and atrocities. Reading them, I didn’t get a burning in my bosom to tell me God was endorsing it at all.

  249. Rebeckah wrote: “Well, in fairness to her, if it was straightforward ‘porn’ that is present in many homes with no indication of abuse. My stepdad was addicted to the stuff, but he would NEVER have harmed any of us children.”

    It was incest pornography. Hard to imagine such a concept exists or could be legal.

    And get this: the victims told their mother about the abuse. The woman took it to the head of the family’s church rather than law enforcement. And, obviously, the church didn’t pass the report along to law enforcement either.

  250. This Alin poster character is a really ignorant moron who is totally clueless about the topic of this blog.

    Too bad this blog doesn’t have an “ignore” button so I can read the intelligent postings and not have to sift through the BS this idiot posts.

    That Alin person is a real WACKO!

  251. Alin: If you look at the divorce rates in the US it seems like we gots lots of reasignments going on.

    …………..

    WTF? Was your brain oxygen-deprived at some point?

    Divorce: husband and wife end their marriage and go their separate ways, usually with some form of joint custody of the children.

    Reassignment: Warren Jeffs kicks husband out of the community and gives wife and kids to a more deserving toady. Husband is not allowed to see kids again.

    Not only are these not analagous, but reassignment is far more damaging to the children.

    “Just like any other community” my ass.

  252. Anon said: This Alin poster character is a really ignorant moron who is totally clueless about the topic of this blog…

    Alin has stated, more tha once, that he has no intention of reading stuff [ie: evidence, WJ’s dictations, books about polygamy, etc.] that might enlighten him on the topic. He’d rather spout nonsense and remain happpily ignorant of facts and make up stuff on his own. Life is all wonderous and lovely in the FLDS in his opinion.

  253. IMO, alin probably belongs to a far right group in TN that hates government and may verge on racism. There are groups like that in that part of the country, as well as some other parts of the country. Such peoploe cannot be reasoned with or educated, as in their mind they are right and everyone who disagrees is wrong. It is kind of like the flds leaders thinking, they have the priesthood, they are right, anyone who disagrees is evil and wrong.

  254. Al-in fits the classic definition of a troll. He just comes here and says inflammatory and ignorant things just to stir things up. I guess so long as he doesn’t resort to Duane’s sock puppet tactics, then it’s only our fault for responding to him.

  255. Alin isn’t the subject of this blog, of course.

  256. He likes to make himself that.

  257. Tonight The Documentary Channel is showing “Damned to Heaven” at 8 PM Eastern time and then “Banished: Lost Boys of Polygamy” at 9:45 PM Eastern Time.

    It is on channel 197 on DISH Network.

    I don’t have Satellite TV (right now I wish I did).

    Does anyone have DISH Network and can record these 2 documentaries on DVDs for The HOPE Organization?

    I can make a copy of the discs and return the original to you. I would like each documentary on a separate DVD.

    Anybody out there who could accommodate us?

    I will personally reimburse you for the cost of the 2 discs and the postage to send them to Utah.

    We use documentaries like these in our office as educational tools.

    Our VP Sara Hammon is in the “Damned to Heaven” one and some of the boys in the other one are probably some of the boys we work with.

    I would VERY much appreciate it!
    Elaine

  258. Hi Elaine it is me Walton.

    I just did a google and Deseret News has this article:http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705345766/2-polygamy-programs-to-air.html

    You can watch the whole thing here:
    http://www.sling.com/

    I don’t know how to record it off my computer.

    Thanks for the heads up and it is very good to see you.

  259. from Bile M’s blog:
    “I’m out of the Country for awhile. Some fool is trying to slap me with a
    Subpoena.
    >
    > Kent, monitor the site please.
    > Have fun folks.
    >
    > 1. Bill on November 20th, 2009 at 6:51 am”

    He must really be scared of something, OR, he may just be full of hot air.

  260. Thank you for the link to the documentary, walton. I’ve only been able to see the trailer and wanting to see the entire film.

    Mucho gracias.

  261. Well, we know for sure that he’s full of hot air, but he might also be really scared of something.

  262. Thanks Walton,

    You sure are a great researcher. I am amazed at the stuff you find!

    Maybe I can buy a DVD of the documentaries from them.
    Elaine

  263. Dittos Walton, I look forward to seeing them this weekend.

  264. “It was incest pornography. Hard to imagine such a concept exists or could be legal.

    And get this: the victims told their mother about the abuse. The woman took it to the head of the family’s church rather than law enforcement. And, obviously, the church didn’t pass the report along to law enforcement either.”

    Both of those facts increase cupability greatly in my mind, both for the woman and for the church. They also explain the church’s quick action in pulling their lay licenses and the lack of people declaring they’re all just really nice people that you usually hear. 😉

    Oh, and if Bile said the sun was yellow I’d feel the need to go check it. He’s a pathological liar and the truth is not in him. I don’t for a moment believe that he has the means to leave the country, much less a need to. I can believe someone is subpeonaing him, possibly is an action about his habit of altering posts on his blog — which is illegal, I believe. Not being a legal authority myself I can’t remember if it’s slander or lying or something else, but many of the alterations he’s made to other people’s posts could actually get them in trouble with the law. (People DO monitor the internet looking for key phrases that indicate possible acts of violence or terrorism.)

  265. lol “lying” – I meant “libel” — no more posting without my morning tea.

    Of course, it IS lying too. 😀

  266. Well, the Bahamas and Cuba are only a short boat ride from Florida.

  267. I can believe someone is subpeonaing him, possibly is an action about his habit of altering posts on his blog — which is illegal, I believe. Not being a legal authority myself I can’t remember if it’s slander or lying or something else,

    …………………….

    He is wide open for a libel lawsuit(s).

    Not too long ago some guy lost a case in which he had called a woman a “whore” on his blog, sorry I don’t have time to look it up right now. But calling Judge Walther a Nazi could certainly be considered libelous.

  268. Walton,
    I tried to access the documentaries from the link on the Des News article, but it didn’t work.

    I have linked the full feature documentaries on HOPE’s web site.

    I tried to use the “embed” code that Sling provided to actually embed them into the page, but all it created was a black rectangle.

    The links to the 2 documentaries are toward the bottom of our “Current Events” page, just about Susanna Barlow’s video.

    Here is the URL for our web page with the links:
    http://www.thehopeorg.org/news.html

    I hope this saves some of you aggravation looking for the URL to watch the documentaries.

    If anyone is good with HTML code and can help me figure out why Slings “embed” code doesn’t work, I would appreciate it. It would be nicer to have the documentaries embedded into our web site instead of having to use the links.

    Elaine

  269. OOPS

    The links to the 2 documentaries are toward the bottom of our “Current Events” page, just about Susanna Barlow’s video.

    That should have been ABOVE Susanna’s video.

    Elaine

  270. I tried watching the videos from the Sling website but the little Suzuki ad on the right hand side keeps jumping in.

    I went over to Hope thinking you might have gotten the little ad out of there but it is there as well. Nothing wrong with having an ad in there but it interferes with the playing of the video.

    any suggestions??

    I hate seeing the ladies cry. 😦 My heart hurts for them and all those involved.

  271. How come Al hasn’t answered my question regarding how many wives he has ?

    catwhisperer said this on November 19, 2009 at 4:30 PM
    ===========================================================
    My apologies 0

  272. Reassignment: Warren Jeffs kicks husband out of the community and gives wife and kids to a more deserving toady. Husband is not allowed to see kids again.
    ==================================================
    Ta hell? The husband has more then one choice. Stay and let the courts figure it out. Leave but take the children with him. Leave and fight for visitation in courts. Leave and forget about the children. You can’t blame the church for a choice that a mother or father makes.

  273. My apologies 0

    Alinusara10 said this on November 20, 2009 at 11:21 AM

    I can understand why!

  274. Yes, you can. You can blame the church for placing them in that position, if the church is being unethical. When the orders involve family life and property so thoroughly, and the group is so sure to shun those who resist, then the church is without a doubt being unethical. The only way they could oust someone ethically is to hold a review with a board. Basing it on one man’s “nocturnal sessions” is one of the key features of this cult.

    I agree that that does not absolve the individuals of responsibility for their own actions and decisions. But let’s be real; this “church” is toxic and wields an enormous amount of control over it’s members.

  275. “Ta hell? The husband has more then one choice. Stay and let the courts figure it out. Leave but take the children with him. Leave and fight for visitation in courts. Leave and forget about the children. You can’t blame the church for a choice that a mother or father makes.”

    Bullpucky — I’ve read of at least two fathers who have tried for visitation with their children but the church and their mothers have hidden the children! Where there are two, I’m sure there are plenty more. PLEASE quit with the lies. Pretty soon your words will be as worthless as Duane’s if you can’t separate reality from the fantasy you want so much to cling to.

    And I’m sure they’ll give you your wife back eventually. Or maybe they’ll give you another one. Who knows?

  276. Thanks Anonymous. I don’t know why you wish to slam me personally while hiding under the veil of being anonymous but I wish you well.

  277. Alin, the men don’t realize they have choices in the FLDS just like women and children don’t know they have choices.

    The prophet RULES their lives and they allow him to do it. REALLY sad, but true.

    Read this article about one man who was kicked out and had his 2 wives and his children taken from him and reassigned to his brother.

    It destroyed this man and he went beserk!

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705345734/Judge-resentences-ex-FLDS-man-convicted-of-threatening-IRS.html

  278. Bullpucky — I’ve read of at least two fathers who have tried for visitation with their children but the church and their mothers have hidden the children! Where there are two, I’m sure there are plenty more. PLEASE quit with the lies.
    ===========================================================
    Ta hell? There is plenty of cases like that all across the US. If the father or mother denys visitation they can face penalties from facing contempt of court all the way up to losing custody.
    It sucks when either the man or the woman uses children as a weapon and I don’t care what faith you belong to.

  279. There AREN’T plenty of cases of the Church encouraging and helping the other spouse to hide the children. Yes, this church is culpable. Not only for the damage it does between fathers and mothers but also between parents and their children. Like when they whisked away Lenora Holm’s (I think) underage daughter to marry her off against parental wishes. Defend them all you want. Maybe it will get you your family back, but if there’s any justice in the world you will one day answer for the pain you perpetuated with your bald faced lies to hide the abusive truth of this church.

  280. You can blame the church for placing them in that position
    ==========================================================
    Not really. I will blame an adult person for doing wrong and maybe the person who advised the adult person to do wrong, but never the church. All adults hold personal responsibility that cannot be passed on.

  281. There AREN’T plenty of cases of the Church encouraging and helping the other spouse to hide the children.
    ===============================================================
    There is plenty of cases where both fathers and mothers withold visitation from the ex spouse. Some of them could be for a worthwhile reason I suppose; the ex may be abusive but not proven in court. While others are out of plain vindictiveness.

  282. I’m amazed that people think so little of the reasoning of adults that they would stretch and try to blame some entity like a church.

    It’s called personal responsibility.

  283. Oh Hum, another troll.

  284. Heh! Or someone who is not one of those damn liberals.

  285. “There is plenty of cases where both fathers and mothers withold visitation from the ex spouse. Some of them could be for a worthwhile reason I suppose; the ex may be abusive but not proven in court. While others are out of plain vindictiveness.”

    Yes, Al, there are. What there aren’t plenty of cases of is Churches isolating members, involving themselves into EVER aspect of members lives (from marriage to naming babies to visiting hospitals) and then splitting apart families under the banner of God. In those situations the church is VERY culpable as these people have been programmed their entire lives to obey and NOT to think for themselves. It does not compare to divorce in the rest of the world in any way, shape or form. And I’m sure you know that as you are an intelligent enough person, in spite of your deliberate blindness. How’s that Lying for the Lord working for you? Any hints that you might get your wife and child(ren) back yet? Or is it just your money that’s good enough for them? Just curious. Obviously it isn’t really my business.

  286. “I’m amazed that people think so little of the reasoning of adults that they would stretch and try to blame some entity like a church.

    It’s called personal responsibility.”

    I’m amazed that people ignore the harmful cognitive effects of repressive, authoritarian, and fear filled upbringings — especially people like you Al who have first hand knowledge.

    It’s called abuse of power — and it’s particularly heinous because they programmed the victims to accept those abuses from infancy on.

  287. I thought I made my point clearly and well and that it is based on fact. So I’m not going to keep beating a dead horse, thank you very much.

  288. Spoken like a true liberal.

  289. If your theory of personal responsibility held up in court there would be no such thing as a liability suit against a corporation, business or religious organization. Organizations are regularly taken to court and succesfully held responsible for damage to their members or the public. So not only do individuals have responsibility, but collections of individuals have responsibility for for their actions. That would include churches.

    And you can stuff that “liberal” trash where it will do you the most good and rotate on it.

  290. Those of us who believe in “the priesthood of all believers” are less likely to blindly follow our clergymen. Those who believe prophets, bishops and priests have a special relationship with God are more likely to discard reason at the church door.

    Ezekial 34 says that both bad shepherds and bad sheep will be judged. It’s worth observing the order in which they’re condemned. First God will drive away the bad shepherds (plural) and rescue and regroup his flock. But within the flock there are also abusers and they must be judged before the reformed flock can once again graze in peace.

    I suppose there’s a reason the shepherd has to be removed first.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekial%2034&version=NIV

  291. This will get the attention of some of y’all.

    “Steed claims Wall has “incompletely, inaccurately, and falsely portrayed the underlying events related to her marriage” to him.

    Steed’s counterclaim says that in publicizing their marriage in her book and interviews, Wall invaded his privacy, cast him in a false light, libeled and slandered him, and caused him emotional distress.”

  292. If your theory of personal responsibility held up in court there would be no such thing as a liability suit against a corporation, business or religious organization.
    ============================================================
    I don’t remember every shareholder in a corporation or business or every single member of the congregation of a religious organization going to jail. Darn liberals.

  293. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.

    Lots of folks hoping for this Gfny.

  294. “Steed’s counterclaim says that in publicizing their marriage in her book and interviews, Wall invaded his privacy, cast him in a false light, libeled and slandered him, and caused him emotional distress.”

    Sounds like a pretty standard counterclaim in a lawsuit.

  295. “I don’t remember every shareholder in a corporation or business or every single member of the congregation of a religious organization going to jail. Darn liberals.”

    Even during the Holocaust I don’t think EVERY SINGLE Jew was rounded up — so what event are you referring to? Sounds like someone else has been eating his hyperbole o’s.

  296. “Lots of folks hoping for this Gfny.”

    I wonder how many of them are actually IN the flock and praying for a way to get loose without blame? I particularly wonder how many of them are young women who find the future laid out for them distasteful but who love their families and don’t want to hurt them or lose contact with them. It’s a horrible, vile and vicious thing to turn family members against each other. It’s one of the most evil things that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young will hopefully have to answer for.

  297. Okay, I’m going to reveal my ignorance here. I’ve never really understood what a “liberal” is supposed to be. (Never quite got “fundamental” either.) Can someone explain it in simple words so I might be able to understand?

  298. Rebeckah

    Rather than put it into my words – here’s the dictionary.com definition:

    lib⋅er⋅al
      
    –adjective
    1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or
    religious affairs.
    2. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a
    political party advocating measures of progressive
    political reform.
    3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.
    4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum
    individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and
    secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
    5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect
    to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal
    policy toward dissident artists and writers.
    6. of or pertaining to representational forms of government
    rather than aristocracies and monarchies.
    7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal
    attitude toward foreigners.
    8. open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by
    traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.
    9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in
    large amounts: a liberal donor.
    10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.
    11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal
    interpretation of a rule.
    12. of, pertaining to, or based on the liberal arts.
    13. of, pertaining to, or befitting a freeman.

    Liberal is a pretty broad word – people often mean different things when they say it.

  299. Here’s what I hear people say about liberals:
    liberals believe that nobody has personal responsibility for anything – if you fail it is the fault of the system, if you are poor it is the fault of the system, if you are in a car accident it is the fault of the system. No personal responsbility means the government has to step in and make all your decisions for you.
    Liberals think money solves everything, especially if it is somebody else’s money.
    Liberals think that there is no individual fault (see personal responsibility above) therefore there can be no wrong therefore anybody can do anything they want.
    Liberals don’t pray and/or go to church.
    Liberals care more about the environment and “big issues” than people and individual people.
    Liberals are over educated.

    That seems to be the “definition” of liberals when I listen to right wing talk radio.

  300. Alin, go back and reread—that scattering of the sheep was the doing of the bad shepherds, just as this scattering is the doing of the FLDS’ bad shepherds.

    And nobody says everyone in the FLDS needs to be in jail, but those who aided and abetted the child sex trade within the FLDS ought to be.

  301. Good question, Rebeckah, because the 19th century liberal movement emphasized property rights, civil liberties, equality and the free market. Then the term became conflated with the Progressive movement and now usually means social liberalism and state solutions to social problems.

    Neither of these are morally superior positions, and every one of us ranges between them from issue to issue.

  302. Then the term became conflated with the Progressive movement and now usually means social liberalism and state solutions to social problems.

    The idea of state solutions is commonly what folks on the right tend to label as “liberal.” In modern politics the conflict is between “conservatives” who say they favor limited government (at least until they legislate morally) versus liberals who believe the state should attempt to intervene and provide solutions.

  303. Question, is alin disparaging librals because he does not like them, or does he think a lot of posters here are liberals and he is just trolling for a reaction. I say; don’t feed or pay any attention to his trollish behavior.

  304. Thank you, Greetings from New York,

    I have so many dear friends who are quite liberal. Actually, they all insist I am one as well, but I just don’t see it. I think the term Conservative has been just as misunderstood, and belied as Liberal.

    Looking for common ground is what all of life is really about.

    I think most of us find that in ‘being an Americans’, or at least we used to, and we should.

    I am for state solutions to some social problems.

    I am *for* the enforcement of the laws we already have against practicing polygamy, just as I would have been *for* the emancipation of American slaves.

    Conservatives were very *for* that. Recognizing the individual’s humanity is a very conservative principle, but then it is the same for a Liberal…just my opinion.

    I think it is a very American quality.

    Anyway, thanks again. I really enjoyed those posts.

  305. “liberal” in this context means that Alin doesn’t want to argue logic or facts, but to call people names or titles which he thinks will discredit the argument.

  306. Civil suits are the usual way in which a corporation, business or organization is held responsible legally. Various parishes of the Catholic Church have been held responsible financially for the way the organization covered for child abusing priests. In addition, private individuals have faced legal charges. That is often the case when group dynamics turn sour; the Enron financial crisis springs to mind as well. So I think it’s valid to hold both the group and individuals responsible for their actions.

    And in regard to the FLDS, what I understand about their history is that in the past, when someone built a house on UEP land with the expectation of living there throughout their lives, that is what happened. The musical chairs game with people’s families and homes is by and large something Warren did.

  307. I’m amazed that people think so little of the reasoning of adults that they would stretch and try to blame some entity like a church.

    It’s called personal responsibility.

    Alinusara10 said this on November 20, 2009 at 11:49 AM
    ************************
    Ali, Im glad you believe in “personal responsibility”… Yet, you support MEN who refuse to take responsibility for assaulting UNDERAGE girl knowing it was AGAINST THE LAW!
    Where is THEIR personal responsibility?

  308. Adam Smith was the most famous 18th century liberal, but his “Wealth of Nations” was the Bible of the Reagan Revolution. Early liberals were actually opposed to statism, because the state was the monarchy, aristocracy, and church.

    (Everyone who believes in our constitution is by definition a liberal, because it is a pure statement of classic liberalism—the belief in the freedom and rights of the individual.)

    Conservatism is the idea that organic evolution rather than sweeping change is the best way to reform society. Conservatives worry a great deal about “the law of unintended consequences.”

    (Everyone who reveres our American justice system is by definition a conservative, because Anglo-American common law is a pure statement of classic conservatism—a process-driven system of incremental change.)

  309. Did you guys watch the videos?

    alinusara did you?

    I did. It took some time due to the little ad popping on and off but I watched all of the Banished Lost Boys.

    alin even when people spoke up and asked for help they didn’t get it. And most of these guys/gals had phones. Who could they have called?

  310. It just isn’t right that people should feel this way. Young or old.

    I remember once Pliggy told me how tough it was. Yeah, even Pliggy as tough as he thought was had feelings. Never wanted to admit to it but being tossed out cuts to the bone.

    Just not right. 😦

  311. LMAO at Allan!

    So, he pretend marries and rapes a 14 yr old…. And SUES HER!?!?

    Is this a first!?!?!?

    ha ha ha

    Boy, I can just see it when Warren is deposed by Elissa and then is up on the Witness stand explaining this to the judge!

  312. Walton,

    Thanks for the links to the vids, I havent had the time yet and am running out soon for “The Blind Side”

    Watched the trailer and it looks good!

  313. OK, I am done trying to communicate with Alinusara10 because I feel like I am talking to a brick wall.

    From now on, when Alinusara10 says something that is so untrue or so asinine that I just want to scream, I am just going to type in:
    Alinusara10 “F U”

    Alinusara10 can read into the letters “F U” anything he or she wants to – I know what I mean by them.

    And, because Alinusara10 gets so worked up by anonymous posts, I will sign my name to my “F U”.

    So, Alinusara10 F U,
    love Fred

  314. So where is the documentation for this Allan Steed lawsuit?

    Why should we believe such a counterclaim has been filed without a link to support the quoted statement that was posted by Alin?

  315. As far as Ive read Allen Steed is doing no such thing. His lawyer filed a motion quite awhile ago with the court, claiming all kinds of things to keep Elissa’s testimony out of his trial. But Ive not found any lawsuit filed by Allen Steed.

  316. DD, Brooke posted Allen Steed’s counterclaim on her blaugh.

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Steed-counterclaim.pdf

    It is actually funny, I love the parts where he say “she made me look bad” and “any reasonable and sane person would find what I did disgusting and it was private”

  317. Thanks, LadySadie, since I don’t go to brooke adams blog much, I didn’t see the counterclaim, but it doesn’t matter, Allen Steed is a pervert just like the rest of them!!

  318. Well he ought to be ashamed, he should have known better than to follow the prophet. He and Elissa are 1st cousins for goodness sake. They share the same grandfather.

  319. Now, now Proud Texan….:)
    By now you know, that when the profit says to marry your sister or cousin, you do it, or you don’t get to go to heaven. Never mind what consequences there are in the real evil world.

  320. Alin: If the father or mother denys visitation they can face penalties from facing contempt of court all the way up to losing custody.
    ………………

    Alin has a point. Any father can seek help from the courts if he is illegally denied access to his children. It would take a man with the kind of courage shown by Carolyn and Flora to overcome the brainwashing and fight back.

    You’d think that Bile and the other pro-FLDS who continue to make a stink about children being separated from their mothers by CPS would take a stand for children being separated from their fathers by Warren Jeffs.

  321. Alin: 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.

    Lots of folks hoping for this Gfny.

    …………………….

    Yes, which makes them easy prey for false prophets who claim to have some kind of “special relationship” with God not available to the rest of us.

  322. You’d think that Bile and the other pro-FLDS who continue to make a stink about children being separated from their mothers by CPS would take a stand for children being separated from their fathers by Warren Jeffs.
    —————————–
    I agree Mouse, but apparently when WSJ separates fathers its divine providence and when anyone else steps in its interference, at least that’s how I take their position.

  323. Yeah, the irony is that in order to collect damages for loss of your reputation, you have to have a reputation first.

    I guess if your going to court you at least need some claim – no matter how specious.

  324. Dang it *you’re*

  325. 2 + 2 = 5

    Is the Pharisee ever right about anything?

    His latest blog post is that the reason why Judge Walther denied the change of venue from Schleicher to Tom Green County in the Keate trial is because the Tom Green County Commissioner’s Court approved additional funding for the 51st Judicial District for staffing during the YFZ trials.

    “You don’t approve funding to provide for Schleicher county trial staff, when you’re going to move the trial.”

    Nevermind that the bulk of the 51st Judicial District staff is located in Tom Green County and changing the venue to Tom Green County would still involve 51st Judicial District staff.

    Why muck up a good Saturday morning accusation of a nefarious decision by Judge Walther?

  326. “Alin has a point. Any father can seek help from the courts if he is illegally denied access to his children.”

    I agree to a certain extent that the apostates are not willing enough to take them to court. However, there are several problems. One is that the FLDS as a group will often provide money to thwart apostates, where as the apostates are working alone, conspiracies about Dan Fischer to the contrary. If you just lost your house, family, job and all your social networks, coming up with cash for a law suit can be difficult. That right there probably explains 80% of the people who could sue but don’t.

    Next, the children are at risk while you are putting through the case. There will probably be efforts to drill into them that you are evil and unworthy to visit them, so that if you do get to see them, you will have no meaningful interaction. The children could be hidden or moved around from one place to another, thus disrupting their lives.

    And finally, but must important, what good does it do to get an order of custody or visitation if the FLDS members will do almost anything to make sure that it can’t be carried out? What does it matter if no one can find the child? If you have to penetrate the secrecy of a group of 10,000 people to find the child, then visitation rights are kind of pointless. Yes, this is true in some non-FLDS cases, but it is made easier by the co-operation and xenophobia of the FLDS group members.

  327. texastwist,

    Weren’t we talking about magical thinking just awhile back? The ability to know what other people are thinking and what motivates them based on the slightest observation.

  328. Were these TV appearances made AFTER he testified in Warren’s case that he did a 14 year old repeatedly? Didn’t her book come out AFTER the trial? Not exactly private information at that point, is it?

    I think this is a sign that they are running out of money for legal bills and Warren is going to drop funding for lesser members first. The lawyers are getting creative in trying to find a way for them to get paid, maybe, eventually. It tells me that Allan is toast and ought to plead.

  329. Today’s arrests:

    https://news.washeriff.net/bookings/

  330. “Alin has a point. Any father can seek help from the courts if he is illegally denied access to his children. It would take a man with the kind of courage shown by Carolyn and Flora to overcome the brainwashing and fight back.”

    Yes, but the courts have shown themselves to be biased in that area towards what the “Prophet” says AND I’ve read of at least one where the father should have had visitation but they simply hid the wife and children from him. It isn’t quite so easy when you’re dealing with a large group of people who hold the law in contempt. Since they feel all they have to do is get a message from God telling them to ignore the law it means that parents who leave the church without their children (and some with their children) are not likely to ever see their children again. (I remember one case where the father took the children from school and then tried to change the court venue to his area — yep FLDS fundamentalists.)

  331. There are many exFLDS men who have gone to court and have fought for part custody of their children.

    These guys are the real fathers of the FLDS.

    Then there are others who are wimps for the profit.

  332. Twist,
    I am glad to know it just isn’t me. I read the Pharisee’s post today and it makes no sense at all.

  333. So we have a Jeffs, Barlow and Roundy arrested this weekend… Seems there is trouble in the clan.

  334. “Alin has a point. Any father can seek help from the courts if he is illegally denied access to his children. It would take a man with the kind of courage shown by Carolyn and Flora to overcome the brainwashing and fight back.”

    Yes, but the courts have shown themselves to be biased in that area towards what the “Prophet” says AND I’ve read of at least one where the father should have had visitation but they simply hid the wife and children from him. It isn’t quite so easy when you’re dealing with a large group of people who hold the law in contempt. Since they feel all they have to do is get a message from God telling them to ignore the law it means that parents who leave the church without their children (and some with their children) are not likely to ever see their children again. (I remember one case where the father took the children from school and then tried to change the court venue to his area — yep FLDS fundamentalists.)

    ………………….

    Yes I agree that all expelled/apostate parents, both fathers and mothers, face an almost impossible task if they decide to defy the FLDS for the right to see their children.
    Hopefully these trials will put enough of the dictators, oops sorry I meant “priests,” behind bars so that those wishing to leave will have the freedom to do so.

  335. Yes I agree that all expelled/apostate parents, both fathers and mothers, face an almost impossible task if they decide to defy the FLDS for the right to see their children.
    ===================================================
    It’s tough for all non-custodial parents when the custodial parents have a social network of friends and family who will finance any custody issues. It does kinda suck but what can you do?

    Non-custodial parents can get custody if the custodial parents defy the courts but the process is long and costly. And I don’t care what religion you belong to.

  336. Zoo Signs Posted:

    DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!

    DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!

  337. You’re right, Sadie. Apparently Al has decided come out and show his true colors at last. I can’t figure out if this is the “deer do it” defense or “somewhere in the world somebody else does the same thing so we should be left alone to break the law and torment people”. Hmmm, I’m leaning towards the second one.

  338. Alinusara10 F U
    Love Fred

  339. It does kinda suck but what can you do?
    ————————
    You do what all these people are trying to do and bring the defying entity to its knees.

  340. Perhaps he’s just bored.

  341. “You do what all these people are trying to do and bring the defying entity to its knees”

    I like to donate money to an organization like The Hope Org. They have helped some exFLDS women with money for legal fees for just such problems.

  342. Check out that phony “Megan’s Polyblog.”
    First she claimed she is 2 months pregnant.
    Then she reported that she is 14 weeks pregnant three days later.
    Then she claimed that the fetal ultrasound at 14 weeks
    indicated she had twin girls.
    Only one problem there – you can’t differentiate between the genders on fetal ultrasound at 14 weeks. What a FAKE PHONY fraud “she” is.
    Just another older polygamist writing a blog attempting to lure young girls in….

  343. lol, I didn’t pick up on that! Yeah, you CAN’T tell if it’s a boy or a girl at 14 weeks.

  344. I went to take a gander at Megan’s Polyblog [since I’d never heard of it] and found it very interesting that there is an ‘adult content’ warning that comes up before you can even see it. Seemed odd to me…

  345. Megan’s Polyblog is a fake blog no doubt written by an older adult
    trying to recruit young girls into polygyny.
    First, “Megan” (age 18) married a man named Steve (age 44) after knowing him for only two weeks, because her church’s Pastor told her that she could not stay in Steve’s house for more than two weeks for a visit unless she agreed to marry Steve.
    Then “Megan” said her religion did not permit her to go on a honeymoon, so she and Steve were served breakfast in bed at home by Steve’s senior wife the morning after the wedding night.
    So when Steve’s 18 yr old daughter got married, “Megan” forgot that
    honeymoons were not permitted by their religion, and “Megan” described Steve’s daughter going on a honeymoon with her new husband…. a blog reader confronted her on this, and “Megan”had no response.
    Then “Megan’s” friend Macy (age 21) came to live at the house. Macy has been living in the house for about two months now, and the “Pastor” has not required Macy to marry Steve yet, despite the regulation that someone may not stay more than two weeks without committing to marry. A reader asked why Macy was not required to marry Steve yet, and no response was offered, but “Megan” assures us that she would like all her friends to marry Steve.
    “Megan” is not too smart, nor does she have a good memory apparently.

  346. and “Megan” is no doubt really Steve, in my opinion….

  347. 2 + 2 = 5

    Is the Pharisee ever right about anything?

    No, he’s rarely if ever right; however, he seems to want to remain in his own little world of tin foil hat conspiracies.

    Now when was Judge Walther going to recuse herself Pharisee? How did she conspire with the state to keep the FLDS off the jury? How does the foil block the government mind control rays?

  348. Ron, With Pharsical it comes down to any trust or faith in the judicial system. He has none. He believes Judge Walther’s is an evil and corrupted jurist. His attempts to argue his pointless perspective only gives rise to the common stock of Alcoa Aluminum. At the beginning of Raymond Jessop’s trial the caution with a juror over a possible flu H1N1 case was an obvious cause of judicial tampering and attempt to slowdown the trial. Of course, at the very same time BileM was blogging that Judge Walther’s was guilty of an unwarranted ‘rush to judgment’. Moody Pharce then declares that jury nullification is just the ticket to stop this obvious miscarriage of Justice against the falsely, now convicted, Raymond Jessop. His diatribes over the Colorado Springs PD and known lesbian Officers hasn’t proven anything to his claim that the YFZ Ranch search warrants were unlawfully procured. Even though the record shows that the Defense attorney Randy Wilson changed his original request to change the Court venue to San Angelo and now has had his way in keeping the venue in Eldorado, Moody only sees the interfering hand of the judge, once again another unfounded theory is proclaimed.

    Do you think being a registered lobbyist in Vermont for the legalization of polygamy has any bias in his viewpoint?

  349. Jim

    If Pharisee really wanted to legalize polygamy and had one still working brain cell in his head, he’d be distancing himself from the FLDS like the plague.

    Geez, if there were poster children for keeping polygamy illegal it’s got to be the FLDS.

  350. I would agree that a series of convictions for sexual assault by practicing polygynists would lower any chances for a state to legalize polygamy. Pharisee does not see any connection or negative effect at all and thinks the criminal conduct of a few bad bigamists doesn’t harm his cause. Most serious bigamy groups look to the judiciary as the pathway to legalization by a ruling of unconstitutional basis. This of course presupposes that the public outcry and reaction from the host states Legislature would fail to respond to such a ruling which I believe would not be likely. Raymond Jessop being celestially wed to nine wives and 22 children, speaks volumes to me on the flawed form of matrimony and inferior form of wedlock. A husband divided into nine partners and 22 children competing for a Dad’s attention is enough of an example of a bankrupt system, including the fact that 10 children in Raymond’s family are not his natural progeny.

  351. Walton,
    I watched “Damned to Heaven” which was on the documentary channel last week. In it a man who had been ex’d by Warren, but clearly still a hurting believer explicitly talked about why you need to marry them underage. He lamented that the legal age was at 18.

    1. Girls get anzy in their teens and may begin to experiment sexually and who wants one of those because a) all men prefer virgins, and b) if she strayed once she’ll be more likely to stray in the marriage.

    2) So if they are married before they get antzy even if they don’t love the man they have a child and they love the child. And then they have another child and they love that child and then they love the family and then they love the man and then everybody is happy

    this man was in his 50s.

    So ….
    The marry them young thing is definitely not an aberration, but a long standing cultural aspect of the FLDS

  352. CaJim,
    The Pharisee is not a logical man.
    He insists that polygyny is in the best interests of women and society in general. He states that legalized polgyny will reduce the divorce rate, lead to happier marriages, and eliminate adultery. When confronted with medical studies which refute his pro – polygyny stance on the above topics, he has no response.

  353. Walton, I too viewed the “Damned to Heaven” film and the exFLDS member who pointed out that young “Child Brides” is one of the commodities that the prophet controls and rewards his faithful priesthood members was quite illuminating. Carolyn Jessop as an past plural wife to Bishop F. Merril Jessop has stated that the available teen brides is a means of control and power possessed by the prophet and the FLDS Church leadership. It’s interesting that the young women actually are assigned/reassigned as a means of projecting power within the FLDS congregation. So then the YFZ Ranch was a livestock exchange dealing in young girls and breeding them to the ‘Templebuilders’ as a reward for loyalty and fidelity to the prophet. This is an obvious human exchange market that needs Law Enforcement actions and closure. The indicted father’s that traded their daughters on the YFZ exchange, like Allen Keate, Michael Emack and Warren Jeffs, in order to receive reciprocal plural ‘Child Brides’ need the full lawful penalty for sexual assault in order to effectively stop this form of child abuse trafficking. Turning the initials of the ‘YFZ’ to mean a ‘Youth Freed Zone’ would be a desirable result to the “Dirty Dozen” Grand Jury indictment trials.

  354. Let’s analyze the Pharisee’s position on the effect of legalized polygyny on divorce rates – he thinks legalized polygyny reduces the divorce rate.

    False!

    Legalized polygyny does not reduce the divorce rate, unless of course, you live in a country with Sharia law which of course prohibits a woman from filing a divorce action. In countries where polygyny is legal, and women may file a divorce action, (such as Indonesia,) the divorce rate is higher in polygynously married couples than in monogamously married couples.

    With regard to the Pharisee’s claim that legalized polygyny reduces adultery :

    False!

    this was refuted by the J. of Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome, which found that 44% polygynously married men in Africa had intercourse with a woman they were not married to in the month prior to an anonymous survey. The incidence of extra marital affairs for polygynously married women was similarly high.

    With regard to the Pharisee’s claim that polygynously married women were happier than (or as happy as) monogamously married women, this has been proven untrue in every culture where polygyny is practiced. Take the studies of Alean Al – Krenawi in Israel for example, or Ozan’s studies in Turkey, or Chabely’s studies in Saudi Arabia…. I could go on and on…

    When confronted with the facts, the Pharisee folds like a cheap camera. No cogent response to the established medical literature other than to say that it will be “different” when evangelical Christians practice legalized polgyny. What a vivid fantasy life he has !!!!!

  355. Pharisee once went on a huge all caps rant while arguing with me on Brooke’s blog; this is one of the events just before he went on a campaign to make me frightened by his successful attempts to find out my real identity. He stated in his rant that most women hate men for their sexual needs and think they are dirty and disgusting. Also, women’s main interest in marriage is for money, stability and sperm for making babies. Now, it does not follow to me, that a man would be happier living with four people who find his needs disgusting rather than only one such person, but he seemed to indicate that the man would find the woman amenable as long as he was improving her condition regarding money and babies.

    A pretty sad picture of the human experience, if you ask me, but hey, it’s not MY fantasy, it’s his.

    I think the fantasy also assumes that a Christian man is going to treat his wifes better than the infidel does. And that Christian women will be so full of submissiveness and a sort of platonic love that they will treat each other better than infidel wives do.

    Maybe he’s writing Megan’s blog and fantasizes that there really are first wives who will bring you and your new 18 year old breakfast in bed on their “honeymoon”; without resorting to some serious antidepressants.

  356. Cat, Moody Pharce has a shrinking voice and so many failed views that he has marginalized his own opinion from a credible lobbyist to uninformed hobbyist. The continuing gamut of indicted FLDS priests will add up to the worst case of collective, endorsed and sanctioned child abuse and domestic assaults in American history. FLDS defenders face a melting cause of having endorsed the convicted perpetrators of one of the worst known cases of covert racketeering and organized crime ever criminally prosecuted within the United States. Claims made outside of the courtroom, instances proclaimed as illegal acts and Press statements that are proven fabrications all add to the indictment against the FLDS Church, the jailed Prophet and convicted Priesthood perpetrators. Over a hundred YFZ Ranch wives and children will be directly effected as a result of these sexual assault cases and the lawless acts rest directly on the individual men, their church and prophet, mercy must first be afforded to the victims and not the convicted.

  357. concur with you CaJim.
    Betty said of the Pharisee :
    He stated in his rant that most women hate men for their sexual needs and think they are dirty and disgusting. Also, women’s main interest in marriage is for money, stability and sperm for making babies.”
    The Pharisee employs a lot of projection in his writings,but then again Freud said 90% of conversation is projection.
    What is the Pharisee telling us about his sex life and his relationships ?
    Nothing positive.

  358. The marry them young thing is definitely not an aberration, but a long standing cultural aspect of the FLDS

    ……………….
    It’s not just FLDS, they just happen to come up with the idea to claim God tells them to do it in an attempt to justify it.
    I think men who want little girls as sex partners can be found in any walk of life, and it is a form of misogyny – they hate the women of mainstream society who demand equality, but they want sex, so they choose girls over whom they can have power instead.

    My daughter just came back from southeast Asia and saw quite a bit of what she calls the “old white guys” (to her any guy over 40 is “old” sorry) Anyway, the old white guys, Europeans and Americans, are expatriots married to young Asian women.

    This is a reason why mailorder Asian brides appeal to some men too, because of their subservience.

  359. It does seem that the supporters over at Bill M. have shrunk to a small pool of individuals who seem to be …. how shall I say it….. on the edge of pretty disgusting movements, with the sole exception Deb Lee. They all were using the Mohler case to show how hysterical anti-abuse people are and how they fabricate things, but as more evidence comes out they are very mute

  360. Cat & HHG, Yes the support is evaporating and the continued trials will allow the truth to prevail. Not the edited version of the truth as BileM and Pharce allow on their blog. BileM not only deletes comments but he rewrites and adds to postings and looks for a response unwittingly from his posters. He even makes postings in response to his re-edited postings of his hated KS posters and detractors. Many of his posters are being totally duped and criticize postings BileM has modified. BileM then uses and fools his own audience into his warped control, even WC has been duped by him.

  361. ” They all were using the Mohler case to show how hysterical anti-abuse people are and how they fabricate things, but as more evidence comes out they are very mute”

    What evidence other than “repressed” memories? Do you belive all the Mohler abuse stories are true?

  362. You’re right, Sadie. Apparently Al has decided come out and show his true colors at last. I can’t figure out if this is the “deer do it” defense or “somewhere in the world somebody else does the same thing so we should be left alone to break the law and torment people”. Hmmm, I’m leaning towards the second one.
    ===========================================================
    I’m not making either argument just addressing sympathy for those in a custodial disbute. Coram has a pretty good article about some woman thumbing her nose at the courts.

  363. You do what all these people are trying to do and bring the defying entity to its knees.
    ===================================================
    Aye like that woman over at Frisco.

  364. DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!

    Alinusara10

    DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!

  365. Weeks of gestation 11 weeks 12 weeks 13 weeks 14 weeks
    Ability to assign fetal
    gender % age group 68% 88% 94% 98%
    Correct identification
    fetal gender 50% 84% 90% 94%
    Male fetuses incorrectly
    assigned as female 41% 13% 8% 5%
    Female fetuses incorrectly
    assigned as male 9% 3% 2% 1%
    Gender correct from
    100 baby scans 34 80 85 92
    ==============================================================
    Then she claimed that the fetal ultrasound at 14 weeks
    indicated she had twin girls.
    Only one problem there – you can’t differentiate between the genders on fetal ultrasound at 14 weeks. What a FAKE PHONY fraud “she” is.
    ========================================================
    You appear to be mistaken. You can determine the gender of the unborn baby with a very high decree of accuracy at 14 weeks.

  366. lol, I didn’t pick up on that! Yeah, you CAN’T tell if it’s a boy or a girl at 14 weeks.
    ==========================================================
    Surely you researched it Rebeckah?

  367. DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!

    Alinusara10

  368. hmmm how about video tapes of the incest? seems to be reports of a large amount of self filmed incest pornography in the Mohler case

  369. I’m still vaguely watching the Mohler case. Haven’t made up my mind yet. I’ve heard rumors of incest pornography in the Mohler case but nothing yet about it being self filmed.

  370. No Alin, you can’t assign the gender accurately with twins at that time.

  371. TROLL ALERT: Please do not feed the alin trollster

  372. FU Alin

    DO NOT FEED THE TROLL

  373. CW, I’ve fumed at Megan’s Polyblog since it started but the inconsistencies never dawnd on me. Thanks for pointing them out.

    I suppose the “adult content” warning is also a come-on, since there’s never anything remotely “adult” in what she writes. I’ve read essays on medieval art history that were far more provocative.

    Even if it were real, it’s pathetic. Girl from broken home finds acceptance in a secret cult in northern California. What’s so uplifting or new about that?

  374. GFNY, glad to hear from you again.
    There have been multiple inconsistencies in Megan’s Blog since the beginning. I am not the only one who has pointed them out, several people have noted the inconsistencies in her statements from week to week. The adult content warning is, as you say, a come on, attempting to draw people to read the blog. The intent is to draw young people from broken families who are in search of substitute mother and father figures to their pseudo – Christian cult in California.

  375. GFNY,
    Any response from your neighbor regarding the word study on “t’zarah” (means co – wife in the Old Testament, literally translated “enemy, adversary, or opponent”)

  376. Fort Worth Star-Telegram article about Buffalo Bill Hawkins:

    http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1781169-p2.html

  377. CW, I’ve been in hospital this week and that sort of threw our conversation off track.

    Another Jewish friend mentioned the difficulty for Christians in assessing Talmudic scholarship in the first place. We don’t even know how it’s done so it’s difficult to determine whether it’s done right.

  378. Agree CW. I will do a check on this reference myself.
    Twist, I read about Buffalo Bill.
    Funny how his lawyer is backpeddling about Buffalo Bill – now saying that Buffalo Bill does not even believe in or promote polygamy.

  379. Check out Honey Dawn’s blog, Almost Heaven. Tomorrow she is promising something special

  380. lol, I love visiting her blog! 😉

  381. That article on Hawkins brings up a very practical point. Since these folks tend to go out into isolated areas, the local authorities who are tasked with charging these yo-yos are small communities with small budgets.

    What’s needed is for the state and the feds to step in and start prosecuting these folks. At least Schleicher county was smart enough to ask the AG for help.

  382. RIH
    I was thinking the same thing.
    I wonder if, in addition, the cultists also think through to the possible PR consequences that when several jurisdictions “gang up” they can look even more victimized.
    Or maybe it is just how it plays out with out foresight
    hhg

  383. don’t you love it when the perpetrators claim victim status ?

  384. Check out Honey Dawn’s blog – She is weighing in on some important issues !!!

  385. Brooke has an article on her blog that Judge Lindberg denied a request by the Short Creek cities that the cities have role in the UEP missues. Both the Utah and the Arizona AG’s were against the cities having a seat at the table. Another flds motion shot down.

  386. This article indicates that the police HAVE found buried jars with notes in them in the Mohler case. http://www.richmond-dailynews.com/news.php?id=3879

  387. This is so sad, Betty. I think these men should face the death penalty myself — although I know the law doesn’t work that way. Still, with betrayal of this magnitude, I can’t see any other penalty being appropriate. Poor, poor children!

  388. Help out the unenlightened: who is Honey Dawn and where is her blog?

  389. The link to HoneyDawn’s blog AlmostHeaven is the first one on the blogroll on this site — Over there on the left of the page.

    She kindly “explains” all about getting into Celestial Kingdom and living in polygamy to those of us who don’t already know. 😀

  390. Umm, make that on the RIGHT of this page. Right under the calendar.

  391. Thanks, Rebeckah. (Shows how little attention I pay to the Blogroll. *hangs head*)

  392. After reading the Mohler story and if it can be proven without a doubt, I have to agree with Rebeckah, they deserve the death penalty for what they did to those children. Too bad that punishment is not on the table. The adults should be protecting the kids, not hurting them. I have no sympathy for adults that molest/rape children. I don’t care who they are or what group they come from. There’s no excuse for this kind of behavior.

  393. Sorry, thought I was logged in. I’m the 3:05pm post above

  394. Ahh cool Ron in Houston, or should I call you Fred? I was wondering who anonymous was.

  395. TROLL ALERT!! Do Not Feed the Alin Troll.

  396. I notice Al has become more and more obnoxious the less he’s getting fed. Keep up the good work folks! 😀

  397. So the Twin cities got their butts kicked in court huh?

    Yeah, Judge Lindburg told them to take a little jump off a tall building.

    Say, wouldnt it be nice if we got good news doubled up with the SC of UTAh B-slapping Warren!???

  398. Alin is an idiot!!!

  399. We need an “ignore” or block function on this blog specifically for Al – in – the USA.

  400. Now, here’s a legal maneuver with a good chance of success:

    http://www.kswt.com/global/story.asp?s=11560985

  401. I can hardly wait for Stamp to see this one.

    Warren suing himself???

  402. Answer yourself nothing, Warren.

  403. KC Star editorial re: Mohler case

    http://www.kansascity.com/340/story/1589492.html

    “Child sexual abuse is tragically more common than anyone wants to believe. Allegations must never be ignored.”

  404. Texastwist I liked your comment about Warren.

    I thought the editorial in the KC Star was a good one.

  405. Thanks, Walton.

    How much bizarre can the FLDS story get?

    My heart ached today for the Missouri father (and his child) who reported suspicions regarding one of the Mohlers back in 2000.

  406. How much more bizarre.

    Sheesh.

  407. As far as this whole thing with Warren I am half way expecting we will be reading about Warren waking up in Texas from a 4 year dream and Larry Hagman (J.R.) will have been the gate watcher and Warren will ask about his evil twin.

    The Mohler story is indeed bizarre but I think back to all the years Flora was trying to tell this story. Time and time again victims are hushed/shunned/ignored and made to feel less than.

    If the incidents would have been investigated properly back then there would be no story today. The system in many levels failed the kids.

  408. There is another story on the Mohler case which discusses incest – an expert says it is common in patriarchal families in which there is a “king” who gets to do whatever he wants because, well, he is the king.

  409. http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1585282.html

    Many of the allegations directed at the Mohlers defy what experts encounter in sex-abuse situations — group encounters involving children within the same family are rare, primarily because they are less apt to be kept secret.

    Still, there are cases of incest being so ingrained in a household that, for some families, “the act becomes normalized … a family value, as common as Sunday dinners or watching football on TV,” said Joseph Beck, a therapy director at Spofford Home, a Kansas City nonprofit that treats children with severe emotional problems.

    “Although it’s abnormal, it becomes, ‘This is how we do things,’ ” Beck said, adding that victims can be trained early in life not to trust the outside world.

  410. Hello everyone,

    I wanted to let you know that the new page on the AAAP’s website is now operational here http://www.tripleap.org/the_empirical_research .

    The new Empirical Research tab can be found directly under the Child Deaths tab on the left of the home page.

    I hope you will take advantage of this resource to learn more about why the U.N. has declared the practice of polygamy to be a human rights abuse of women, worldwide. We will be adding more as it comes in.

  411. The psycho dynamics of sexual assault has always amazed me. I’ve always been fascinated by the almost sixth sense that abused people have for finding abusing mates.

    In family law, you hope to break this cycle, but as HHG quoted, sometimes it just gets so ingrained.

  412. Boots –

    Very nice, I hope you’ll keep updating it.

  413. I think that mainstream Christian denominations are not taking the cultish Biblical Patriarchy Movement seriously enough. They should be speaking out against it loudly and often.

  414. HHG,

    I have often wondered about the issue of personal boundaries in these cases. I know I have read that people who become hooked on pornography have problems with personal boundaries.

    Why would it be any different with incest? If there is no boundary, because you believe religiously in your right to “rule” those around you, how perfect is that?

    A persons greatest chance of becoming a pedophile later in life is brought on by the fact that they were abused by one as a child. That’s a cycle we are all familiar with.

    A pedophile in regular society is usually first limited to victims in his own home. Once those children are grown and hold no more sexual interest for the pedophile, he then has to start taking greater risks by finding children in his neighborhood or community to molest: your children. This is why everyone is always so shocked about the youth group leader, or the Scout troop leader or the coach, etc.

    Think about it. If you were molested as a child within a polygamist household, and the cycle continues, then once you are grown and get your own “family” growing, you can produce an almost limitless supply of your own victims, all who look up to you as a ‘god’. There is much less risk needed in such a scenario.

    Combine it with an environment of ‘Don’t trust outsiders because they are all out to get us, so you must always keep our secrets or they will come and take our whole family away’. Molesters depend on a foundation of secrecy and polygamy is built on that very foundation..Gee, what more could a molester ever ask for?

    He is a ‘god’, everyone is out to get us, G-d is on our side, our laws are above man’s laws, perfect obedience demonstrates perfect faith, bla bla bla.

    Flora has been trying to get this point across for years. There is a clear pattern of ingrained child sexual molestation within the FLDS that goes way beyond the child bride issue.

    Just ask Brent Jeffs.

  415. Boots,
    Flora is absolutely correct. Dr. Janet Bennion also documented that fundamentalist patriarchal belief systems are associated with incest and abuse in her article, “Abbas Raptus.” I will post a link to that article shortly.

  416. I thought that KCS story was particularly well-written. The writers did not repeat assumptions; they interviewed experts:

    “Despite common assumptions, adults who sexually abuse children are not likely to have been molested themselves.

    “‘That connection has been way overblown,’ said Mark Chaffin, a professor of pediatrics at the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center.”

    That’s news to me, and heartening.

    A few years ago I would have been very skeptical of a story like the one from Missouri. I recoil at the idea that there can be such evil in the world, and I have absolutely no experience with it. Most well-balanced people react that way until they’re forced to face facts.

    Child sexual abuse is a betrayal on two levels—first, that your father could do this to you; second, that you can’t count on your father to help.

  417. Boots

    Thanks as always

    PS pass on to FJ, saw her in “Damned to Heaven”, thought she did great! My favorite part was her “AHA” moment, when she realized the FLDS really did think all gentile families abuse their children – just like they do.

  418. GFNY,

    I found that conclusion to not be founded by the facts that follow it, so without looking at information based just on the research, I can’t decide if the quote is valid and well accepted. To say that only 1 in 10 of all who are molested later sexually abuse others does not say anything at all about the number of sexual abusers with abuse in their own past. Not enough information. Also one study can be just a fluke, especially if it uses a small population sample. That’s why the process of vetting theories in a scientific community is so important.

  419. The Google Scholar program is a good tool to use for a literature search.

  420. To the surgrin of religions, they have become cold, money hungry businesses Cat Whisperer. Simply speaking, religious organizations build bigger, more comfortable buildings, send around offering plates for money from members who don’t have it, to give pastors, preachers, priest, rabbi’s larger salaries, and more comfortable living places.
    The ivory towers of most religions aren’t even connected to everyday mundane or spiritual issues unless money is involved. Members of these establishments, follow because they are made to feel guilty, or that they owe GOD something.
    Yet, when Apostles went out from the begining, they were paid nothing, Christ told them to SELL all they had, their work was spiritual and he would provide for them. They traveled, they stayed with people for the night, they ministered, they refused money, and they ate what those who believed offered them.
    Other religions don’t comment or get involved, because they have become closed societies themselves, its a ME and MINE religion. Most have rules just to join their churches. It doesn’t matter if you just believe and follow the Christ any longer, you are required to follow THIER rules or you are not a member.
    I am very disappointed in the “Church” of today!

  421. By the way, GOD doesnt need your money or my money,, it was intended to help those who were in need, but very little goes for those purposes.

  422. Ron in Houston,

    Thank you! As far as the dynamics of sexual assault and the “victim cycle”, well, I have always wondered, too…

    I’m not a scientist, a researcher or a lawyer. Like Flora, my interest in the abuse issues are based on personal experiences of being a survivor, not wrapped in being a victim. I had a drunken birth father who threatened repeatedly, during a particularly nasty and prolonged physical assault, to rape me as a child.

    Later in life I knew I had choices. I knew the man was completely poisoned by his addiction to alcohol. I was fortunate enough to have grown up in a very good school system, where I learned in a Health class that being the child of an alcoholic meant you probably had a predisposition for the same condition. So, I made the conscious choice very early in life to be very careful about alcohol.

    I love wine but I would never allow myself to have a glass every single day. Do I or don’t I have the predisposition? I’ve had people try to tell me that alcoholics don’t have a choice, because they were “born with the disease”.

    I don’t buy it. You may indeed have a genetic disposition, but behavior is always a choice. Always. I won’t ever go into a bar by myself, because I know exactly what sort of evil a drunk is capable of. I’d rather be trapped in a room full of snakes than a room with one drunk bubba.

    Show me a man that drinks every day and watch how fast I run.

    Choices. We all have them.

  423. Boots, well put.

  424. Deputy Dog,
    I concur, God doesn’t need our money, and I agree wholeheartedly that organized religion can indeed be poison, as the Dalai Lama once said.
    Boots, you are not the only ACOA survivor here.

  425. Stamp,

    Flora, although not formally higher educated, is one of the most intelligent people it has been my pleasure to know.

    I spoke to her while I was waiting for the jury in Eldorado to come back out and mentioned the problems I was having getting the press to pay any attention at all to the work we are doing. I’ve got a great PR background and I was just flummoxed by the dynamic.

    She told me something very interesting. She said that the reason they are ignoring us is because they are still ignorant. The press in America truly believes that the problem is exclusively a problem with child abuse and has absolutely nothing to do with polygamy. She told me that way more than one American reporter has told her that the reason she loses credibility is because she attacks polygamy itself, and if she would only stop attacking polygamy, things would be better for her.

    I founded the AAAP, because once I saw the findings of the United Nations, I understood that little Flora Jessop, “uneducated” as she was is 100% right about polygamy itself being *the problem*.

  426. Boots I agree about polygamy, however, I don’t think it’s just that which causing you not to get the press you need. Most people refuse to believe child abuse is as bad as it really is in this country, then when compiled with polygamy , God, etc. most people just stop listening.
    But we have had 3 polygamists groups or abusive “godly” groups who have abused children come out recently in national news. Flds, Alamo, and now Mohlers.
    Although people cringe at the thought of abusing children, and the results that occur. Most keep their heads buried in the sand.
    Its a damn shame, but I appreciate all the hard work you and Flora and so many who aren’t even connected with any group are doing!!!

  427. I think that most people don’t take polygamy seriously because they don’t see it. It is a problem “elsewhere,” in some remote
    location in the Rocky Mountain West. No one wants to interfere, because they want to respect someone elses’ “rights.”
    I don’t know of any polygynous wives who consented to polygyny, what ever happened to their “rights?”
    These women were informed that a second wife was coming, or had already arrived.
    It is a problem right here in NY City, in the “underground,” so to speak.

  428. hey everybody – Go to Honey Dawn’s blog and become a follower today !
    She is weighing in on some important topics!

  429. Ahh cool Ron in Houston, or should I call you Fred? I was wondering who anonymous was.

    Alinusara10 said this on November 23, 2009 at 4:12 PM

    Ron is not Fred; I am Fred.

    But Ron can speak “Fred lingo” if he also wants to say F U to you
    Alinusara10.

    In the meantime, here’s my thought for the day:

    Alinusara10 F U,
    Love Fred

  430. Thanks Fred!!!

  431. Alinusara10 F U,
    Love Fred
    ===================================
    Hi anonymous stalker.

  432. Go to Gettysburg, PA, stand on either side and contemplate what it must have been like for a soldier in 1863 to march into those cannons. It’s incomprehensible.

    In 1860 they termed polygamy barbaric.

  433. I notice Al has become more and more obnoxious the less he’s getting fed. Keep up the good work folks!
    =====================================================
    I thought the goal was to get me to be less obnoxious? Anytime I catch someone in a lie I will call them out so get used to it.

  434. DD, you’re right about child abuse being ignored in this country. I would agree with you, except that the focus of the media on these FLDS cases has indeed been on the abuse of children. Even Mike Watkiss, who is a personal friend of Flora’s, completely ignored me while I was there. She told me he is one of the reporters who has made that exact statement to her in the past.

    When I was watching his news reports, that’s exactly what he said in a comment to an anchor at his station. To paraphrase, he said, ‘Polygamy isn’t the problem. There are lots of consenting adults practicing polygamy. The FLDS just needs to leave the little girls alone’.

    Even with all the good Mike Watkiss has done by exposing the crimes of the FLDS, he is completely corrupt to the illegal cultural practice of polygamy.

    The same is true of many of the organizations out there who give very real help to the victims. They make no bones of the fact that they are not going after polygamy. They can’t, or they would get very little support.

    The people who support polygamy, because they have a religious motivation to practice it, have an interest in making sure abusers are seen as different than and completely separate from all the “good polygamists”.

    Does that make sense?

    There’s a reason why the AAAP is the first and only non-profit in the country to go after polygamy as a stand alone issue. We have to educate the public, for the first time ever, about this particular human rights abuse.

    We are starting at the very bottom and our challenge is monumental in scale. The polygamists have ALL the money and resources, and all we have so far is the genuine will to race down the hill and fight Goliath.

  435. Brooke Adams has posted the Memorandums for the Motion to Intervene and the Motion to Vacate Declaration of Reformed Trust.

    The first hurdles are standing and timeliness.

    One particular thing of interest — LeRoy S. Jeffs is the administrator of Rulon Jeffs’ estate.

    Jeffs vs Jeffs

    Who wants popcorn?

  436. Deputydog: Other religions don’t comment or get involved, because they have become closed societies themselves, its a ME and MINE religion. Most have rules just to join their churches. It doesn’t matter if you just believe and follow the Christ any longer, you are required to follow THIER rules or you are not a member.
    I am very disappointed in the “Church” of today!

    ……………………………..

    Deputy, I am sorry you have reason to view the modern church in this way, I wish you could visit my church. I belong to a small, community Presbyterian Church. We don’t have any big, fancy buildings. There are no “rules,” everyone is welcome, and all can take Communion with us. Our focus is on reaching out to those in need, especially the homeless in our community, and those who are victims of repression, violence, and exploitation.

    I can understand why overblown TV ministries that rake in the $$ and set their leaders up like millionaires give a bad name to Christianity, but there are many mainstream Christians working quietly away to make life better for those less fortunate.

  437. ” Anytime I catch someone in a lie I will call them out so get used to it.”

    You must spend a lot of time talking to yourself, then.

  438. The same is true of many of the organizations out there who give very real help to the victims. They make no bones of the fact that they are not going after polygamy. They can’t, or they would get very little support.
    ==========================================================
    I don’t think the lack of support is the issue so much as if these same organizations went after polygamy then those victims, those who need it’s services the most, would not seek help.

  439. Twist

    That, and I note Valerie Jeffs Mackert a son, beneficiary, in Federal Prison in CA for incest with a niece – Geez Rulon has two sons in prison, bet there would be more if LE got on their tail.

    Funny, only one wive is listed as a bene. Guess all that hocus pocus plygger BS just means they are a girlfriend on the side with no claim to fame but the funky skirt and hairdo.

  440. Please Ignore the Alin TROLL.

  441. I’m looking to see which woman is listed as a beneficiary. Perhaps you can point me in the right direction. Also is it a beneficiary to a trust or beneficiary to a will?

    Guess all that hocus pocus plygger BS just means they are a girlfriend on the side with no claim to fame but the funky skirt and hairdo.
    ======================================================
    Basically yes. Without the status of a legal wedding the girlfriend on the side scenario is correct.

  442. Valerie Jeffs Mackert was Warren Jeffs sister, She is the one who was sexually molested by all her brothers, and committed suicide, so I don’t know why she would be listed as a “son”?

  443. Boots there have been over 100 women including Flora and Carolyn Jessop who have left Flds, so I know there are women in Flds who aren’t brain dead.

  444. Warren Jeff’s own sister Elaine has also left Flds.

  445. Boots there have been over 100 women including Flora and Carolyn Jessop who have left Flds, so I know there are women in Flds who aren’t brain dead.
    ============================================================
    Aye, it’s been my argument all along that if the women are not happy they are perfectly free to choose to leave.

  446. Al, that’s not my point. Most of the women who left, were mistreated, abused, sent to mental institutions. Did the abuse stop? NO!!! What flds leadership did, was make it harder for women to leave, because if they threatened to leave, or found out, they would take their children and hide them, till they had a change of mind.
    Thats the difference from then till now.

  447. They are not perfectly free to do anything. they go into town for any reason,, a MAN goes with them. They go to a doctor, A MAN goes with them. They can roam around the ranch all they chose, but to leave the ranch, they aren’t allowed to go alone.

  448. And dont give me this horse shit, women like to be treated this way, because if you do, you a fruitcake!

  449. I don’t think that people don’t care about Polygamy despite all the media coverage many people just don’t know the dynamics of the polygamous “cults”.

    What other states are having these same issues?

    Even though this story is about Warren Jeffs has anyone heard Utah AG saying anything about going after the Kingstons?

    Polygamy is rarely about consenting adults. If anyone would watch the films Banking on Heaven, Damned to Heaven, and the documnetary Lost Boys Banished they would see that none of those kids (now adults) didn’t ask to grow up in this lifestyle.

    Who on the outside of a Polygamous cult has 50 wives and over 100 children?

    Suzan Mzar wasn’t off track. They should cut off all federal monies to these states that are condoning polygamy by not doing their job to enforce the laws. Bet they would act then.

    Warren kicked out LeRoy. He can’t be part of the process.

  450. Leroy is still in prison

  451. Alinusara

    Just once I’d like to see words written by you that would prove half just half of what you say.

  452. LeRoy is supposedly in prison. So is Warren. So should Willie and Merrill be in prison.

    But Warren kicked LeRoy out. He isn’t entitled to a dang thing according to their own rules.

  453. Rulon got much of this property and monies in a not so legal way as well. He took and took just like Warren.

    And just like Warren Rulon was at the bedside of a dying man who magically made him the new Prophet.

    If they truly want to divide this up properly they should make it a state park and let all those who have paid their “dues” enjoy the land. That includes those that were kicked and those taxpayers over the years supporting this lifestyle. jmo

    Nothing wrong with a persons own feet to stand on imo.

  454. Preach it, Walton! 🙂

  455. DD

    Good catch, my bad. A google of the name showed links that said “Incest of his niece” so I presumed it was a he.

    I see she is listed as a daughter but the addy is the dublin Federal prison. Odd that.

    page 37 of 39

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ParkerUEP1.pdf

  456. Sorry.

    Sometimes all we do is make excuses and quite frankly I am just tired of it.

    I am done tip toeing. Seeing LeRoy come back thru legal forms drawn up by Larry Curly and Moe just ticks me off.

    I’ve tried to be respectful to everyone but I am just tired of excuses and more piles of BS with out some kind of silver lining shining thru. Just more delays more BS

  457. Walton

    State Park?

    I was thinking give it a high fence like YFZ, remove the children, neuter the bunch of them, and let them have at it.

  458. Can’t do that either Stamp. There are others who want what they have. Water. Now bring in the Knudson boys.

    Knudsons have the water FLDS slide over to CPark group and the Kingstons already have feet planted. One big ol’ happy family in Utah and Arizona. Seriously. One family.

  459. Walton, I was wondering how long it would finally take you realize there comes a time when NICE doesn’t work… 🙂

  460. I think its hilarious they are dragging a dead man (rulon jeffs) back into the fray!! LOL

  461. Who knows with this running family tree maybe Rulon Jeffs and I are related. I want my name on that pot of gold as well.

    No, I don’t. I am just saying.

    I thought it there was a rule that the courts didn’t have to rule on anything that might have been involved in a crime or crimes. This whole thing is nothing about Religion but everything that is and has been a scam. Plain and simple.

    Call it a dang ponzi scheme and end the mess already. The state of Utah and Arizona can put those monies into a fund to pay back those that have have helped fund this stupid mess for 50 years. First they can pay all attorney fees(minus Parker and Snow) and the problem is done.

    Nobody ever gives back a truck load of pot when the court case is done. Right?

    Bringing Rulon back to life in this setting means that those “wives” of his that are no longer married to him but now to Rulon would have dibbs on such things. Right back to Warren it goes. Same mess different year. jmo

  462. I meant to say the wives that were married to Rulon who are now married to Warren.

    Warren gets it all back. Martha Stuwart ran her empire from prison and so does supposedly Warren.

  463. Walton, I agree,, its a fraudulent cult, plain and simple. This mess Parker filed was filed once in 2002 and didn’t work then and wont work now. First of all many of the people on the list are dead, or xflds. He is filing OLD files.

  464. So it was a joke? Wow. I didn’t even look at the dates.

    Is anyone else tired of the games?

  465. Does Stephen King have anything to do with this story? Just kidding.

    Why would the courts entertain such filings? Judge Lindberg has her poop in a scoop she wouldn’t mess with this kinda crap.

    So was it a joke from Parker? Or is it a joke from the Trib? Brooke hasn’t played any jokes before.

    Man this is a mess.

  466. Parker is I am sure under the watchful eye. He wouldn’t be playing jokes at this stage of the game.

    It doesn’t make sense. Not even in Willies world could this make sense.

  467. Does anyone know how to get in touch with Texasbluesman? He can explain this to me so I would understand.

  468. It says to me that Parker wants to stall indefinitely the date when he is forced to turn over files related to his management of the trust. I wonder why.

  469. walton, check out Ron in Houston’s blog at ‘Flds Legal Perspective’ commentary.

  470. No I think Parker really filed the motion Walton, but the second part was an OLD file.

  471. I’ll ask again.

    What prison is LeRoy Jeffs in and on what charge?

    Where and when was he tried?

    Information I have is that he is not in prison.

    In 2006, he did spend just over four months in a federal detention center on a contempt of court charge, but was released after Warren Jeffs was apprehended.

    “Six members of the polygamous sect led by Warren S. Jeffs have been released from the Central Arizona Detention Center in Florence, Ariz., where they were being held on contempt of court charges.”

    “The U.S. Marshals Office confirmed the men were released Tuesday. Jeffs’ arrest Monday evening just outside of Las Vegas may have made it unnecessary to continue holding the men.”

    Article dated September 1, 2006.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy523.html

  472. Ron addresses it here:

    http://fldslegal.blogspot.com/2009/11/just-when-you-think-it-cant-get-anymore.html

  473. If LeRoy Jeffs is in prison as stated, then why did a CPS worker testify at Adeline Barlow’s status hearing (May 2008) that she spoke to LeRoy Jeffs in Hildale via the phone?

    “Adeline Barlow had gotten a job in San Antonio to be near her two children.

    Barlow’s husband, Leroy Steed Jeffs, 55, did not appear in court Wednesday. When reached by phone in Hildale, he told CPS caseworker Ashley Kennedy that he had seen the family service plan, which offers recommendations on what it will take for unifying parents with their children, and that “at this time he was not interested” in participating, she said on the witness stand.”

    http://www.childbrides.org/raid_des_YFZ_members_fear_2nd_raid.html

    Until I am provided solid information that says otherwise, I’ll proceed on the assumption that LeRoy Jeffs is not in prison.

  474. texastwist, I agree, I don’t think LeRoy is still in prison. He was but all information I can find says he was released and is currently living in and running things in Short Creek.

  475. I don’t care for Parker for a lot of reasons but Parker isn’t an idiot. And neither are the Snows. The Snows have been around a very long time. A very very long time. They could probably tell us how this story will end. If you know what I mean.

    But for Parker and Snow to be filing such a thing is just dumb. What would they gain by it and who would they fool? They know that they were not bringing this infront of one of the good ol boys.

    I am old country gal that grew up with NO walls and was allowed to ask questions till I got answers.

    I think some cards need to be placed on the table.

  476. No Lyle Jeffs is running things in Short Creek

    And according to records Leroy Jeffs was 41 in 2006, so how could he be 55?

  477. I would let it fly, Sadie, but this is the second time I have seen comments that assert he is in prison.

    I don’t know that he is running things in Short Creek, but his fingerprints are all over this move by Parker.

  478. LeRoy still can’t/ shouldn’t be getting anything. IN or OUT of prison. Warren kicked him out.

    According to their own rules.

  479. deputydog1,

    Do you have any links that support your claim that LeRoy Jeffs is in prison?

  480. DD, you are right that I got the names of who is running things in Short Creek messed up, it is Lyle that I heard was running things there. But I still think Leroy was released on the contempt charges after Warren was captured.

  481. LeRoy Jeffs is older than his brother, Warren.

  482. Oh, according to Daphne Branham in Canada, Leroy Jeffs is a School Board member of Bountiful schools. Did anyone know that, he along with James Zitting. Her article was written last year about Bountiful School.

  483. Sorry TexasTwist, maybe it was Leroy Steed I was thinking of.

  484. Here is the Article

    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/features/polygamy/story.html?id=d6f6b411-49a5-4496-8841-f4717308ec11&k=52341

  485. Didn’t Duane rave about the quality of the Bountiful School ?
    Apparently there are very few graduates….

  486. LeRoy’s back in I think, maybe he’s repented enough

  487. Twist, my friend, compare that heirship document with your kudzu file on Rulon Jeffs.

    It would be great to know if all Rulon Jeffs’ descendents were included in that list, or just the ones still in the FLDS. If Jeffs didn’t leave a will, he couldn’t disinherit any of his kids. So if some of them aren’t on that list, Leroy Jeffs either forgot they existed or committed fraud.

  488. That prophet is dead.

  489. If Leroy is in short creek, where is he? No one has ever mentioned him. This is the first time his name has been brought up. And his name is submitted from something Parker filed in 2002 before Leroy was kicked out

  490. The something from 2002 that Parker filed as documentary evidence to support the Memorandum filed in November 2009 is the probate court order that appointed LeRoy Jeffs as the executor of Rulon Jeffs’ estate and names Rulon’s heirs.

    It was not refiled, but was included by Parker as a supporting document to the Memorandum.

  491. Will do, Greetings. I’ll let you know what I see.

  492. I don’t mean to interrupt, but there is a program on streaming video on the Internet that some of you might want to watch. It’s called
    I Was a Born Again Mormon. You might enjoy it …
    here is the link – it is streaming live right now.
    http://www.hotm.tv

  493. Leroy is out, and it appears, forgiven and back living in Hildale.

  494. Well according to what I could find on the net he isn’t in an Arizona prison. But then I couldn’t find anything stating he was released. I know he was still in prison when the others were released otherwise his name would have been included. It wasn’t.

    There is something about those Utah and Arizona prisons that tend to kinda lose track of their inmates. I remember that they had one person in a Utah prison that was connected to the killing and or the tossing of body parts of one John Mayo. But I later found that guy on a work program in Northern Utah.

    Maybe Warren and LeRoy are on a work farm? Maybe they are looking for beans in a cornfield.

    Maybe Warren will have had enough monies in his candy account to have his own private cell phone and he’ll call Raymond up and see how things are going. Thing is Raymond will be two cornrows down looking for the same beans.

    Bobby Ewings dream was nothing compared to this.

  495. “I found that conclusion to not be founded by the facts that follow it, so without looking at information based just on the research, I can’t decide if the quote is valid and well accepted.”

    I thought it was just phrased badly and what they were trying to say was that being molested does not necessarily mean a person will molest in turn. However I am still under the impression that the majority of molesters were molested themselves. Perhaps I read it wrong.

  496. “Anytime I catch someone in a lie I will call them out so get used to it.”

    You must spend a lot of time talking to yourself then.

    LOL that was my first thought too, Betty. That and I wondered what made him think that he even knew what a lie was. I’ve seen him call people liars for honest mistakes and I’ve seen him print lies himself. Then again, I like to call out liars too. Al and Duane are two big ones. I particularly liked the lie Al made about being a Southern Baptist. 😆

  497. “Aye, it’s been my argument all along that if the women are not happy they are perfectly free to choose to leave.”

    It’s funny how often that claim is made. Of course those making the claim think no one can see that a woman who is saddled with 5 children by the time she’s 25, who has no high school diploma or GED, much less a college education, and who has no usable skills or true knowledge of the world outside her religious compound is hardly “free” to leave. Those women who HAVE left have shown enormous courage and fortitude and many of them have suffered the loss of family and children as a result. Their courage does not show “freedom” as far as the others are concerned, it only shows how strong they personally are. Freedom is available to all, not just a lucky few.

  498. New soap opera on CBS

    Oh What a Tangled Family Web FLDS Weave When they Marry Sisters, Nieces, Granddaughters and Great-Grandaughters.

    Latest episode, dead great-grandfather Rulon channels himself through his lawyer and sires 800 more children.

  499. “Aye, it’s been my argument all along that if the women are not happy they are perfectly free to choose to leave.”

    Oh yeah? WHERE IS RUBY JESSOP?

  500. Next Al will be saying ‘Gee, just because one family holds a woman and her children captive, refusing to allow her to escape, that doesn’t mean all polygamists are bad. There are plenty of monogamists who hold women captive and refuse to let them leave with their children…’

  501. I saw him in Hildale recently. I did a double take, cause he resembles Warren a lot. I also saw Allen Holm in town. Are there others who have been let back in and are under probation?

  502. Greetings – some of those exed by Warren are on Parker’s list. David is the husband of Susannah, the one who was reluctant to remarry when warren told her too. Ward and Blaine are out too I think.

  503. “him” being Leroy

  504. Boots, is Ruby still married to Haven?

  505. Walton,

    “Six members of the polygamous sect led by Warren S. Jeffs have been released from the Central Arizona Detention Center in Florence, Ariz…The men released in Arizona are…Leroy Jeffs….”

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy523.html

  506. From Parker’s list – Which wife do the following belong to:

    Elaine, Dan, Ruleen, Brian, Amy, Valerie, Aaron, John, Paul, Marvin, Jacob

    and who the heck are Richard Hodson and Gary Hilton?

  507. ProudTexan,

    If you want to call human bondage marriage, then I suppose so.

    Last I knew she’s had six children, made several suicide attempts and still wanted out.

    The problem is, unless you can get her someplace with every single one of her children [and we really don’t know how many there are now] why would she ever leave?

    Even if by some miracle you could accomplish such a task, who is to say they would let her meet with authorities with all her *real* children? And exactly who would those authorities be, corrupt law enforcement in Utah or Arizona?

    Her mother had six infant girls taken from her at birth and given to Uncle Fred. CPS case workers told me that some women at the YFZ needed written lists to be able to name their own children. So who is to say who has whose children, really?

    My source, who has only been out for a few years, said they knew she still wanted out.

  508. Since we’re talking about who is in what prison … Raymond Jessop has been moved to the Tom Green County Jail (San Angelo) to wait until he’s processed into the Texas Department of Corrections and sent to a state prison. (source: Eldorado Success)

  509. Elaine is the daughter of Kathryn “Kaye” Jessop.

    Brian is Norma Balmforth’s.

    Richard Hodson is one of Rulon’s two eldest sons and their mother is Zola Brown Jeffs Hodson — Rulon’s real “first wife” who divorced him in 1941 because he wanted to practice polygamy.

  510. Which brings up a question I’d asked eons ago…cuz I haven’t found the answer… WJ’s wikipedia site says he was born in San Francisco but, no mother’s name is mentioned. Who is she, is she still FLDS and how did they get from SF to ruling the roost in the Creek?

  511. Merilyn Steed Jeffs is Warren’s mother. She was Rulon’s 4th or 5th wife, depending on whether one counts Zola Brown.

    Warren’s mother is still living and is still FLDS.

    Long story about Rulon’s rise in the FLDS, but being a CPA and “the money guy” didn’t hurt.

  512. Pretty good “in a nutshell” background on Rulon Jeffs:

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy9.html

    (1998 Tom Zoellner article, Salt Lake Tribune)

  513. Thanks, I’ll read that.
    I was just reading a 2004 article by Rick Ross in which he compares WJ’s to the Taliban. Too bad the troll’s won’t read it. It explains, yet again, what they refuse to understand. There is no ‘choice’ for those who can’t get out.

  514. Texastwist thanks for the links.

  515. Rulon was LDS and converted to polygamy. This article does not explain why they moved to Utah ftom CA.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy9.html
    “Court records say the young Mormon couple had been fighting over something she dreaded: his desire to marry another wife and join the ranks of the polygamists. Jeffs had told her he had taken a trip to the mountains and had a vision of the woman God wanted him to marry. It was a girl who worked at a store in Provo.
    Zola Jeffs told her husband she feared he no longer loved her, that he had become cold and indifferent. He responded by telling her that if she did not embrace polygamy and accept the other wife, things could never be the same between them again. “

  516. I think I read somewhere that she went to California to be with her sister. Warren was born in 1955 and that was still the aftermath of the raid.

    That rickross article says that Gary Hilton is also a son who left. I wonder if he is the other son that Zola left with.

    Was LaRue his 2nd wife and therefore the legal one after Zola divorced him?

  517. Connie – I heard that there was a lot of prairie dresses at the Tom Green County jail yesterday, so I figured he’d been moved.

    Boots – I only called it a marriage because I wasn’t sure what else to call it. Human bondage is a good term. I feel for her and wish we could get her and all her kids out.

    I wonder if CPS can check up on Raymond’s kids and stepkids. I’m sure when he gets out he’ll go back to the ranch, but how will that be possible being a convicted sex offender.

  518. Rulon had his wives hidden all over the west in the 50’s and 60’s to avoid being arrested. It was a common practice among a lot of polygamists

  519. The first wife Rulon married after Zola Brown divorced him was Kathryn “Kaye” Jessop, daughter of Joseph Lyman Jessop, Sr. and Winnie Porter.

    Rulon’s father, David Jeffs, was a polygamist and he eventually had an influence on Rulon following the same path.

    “Rulon’s father was David Jeffs, an ardent polygamist who refused to give up his belief in the controversial dogma and believed the mainline church had gone seriously astray. Despite his father’s urgent teachings, the younger Jeffs nevertheless became a faithful Mormon who came to loathe polygamy.”

    “After the birth of the couple’s first son, Jeffs cautiously began to try a reconciliation with his father, who became a frequent guest at Sunday suppers. David Jeffs began to talk about polygamy — and this time, his son listened. “Over time, the old man’s powerful personality just captivated Rulon,” said Firmage.

    Jeffs began to talk nonstop to his wife about the idea, and even equipped the couple’s new home with a basement to accommodate a second wife.”

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy9.html

  520. PT,

    Kaye Jessop Jeffs died before Rulon, so that would have left LaRue Hunter Jeffs as the senior wife. No idea which of his polygamist wives he was legally married to, if any.

  521. Brian C. Hales on Rulon Jeffs:

    http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/ChartLinks/RulonJeffs.htm

  522. I didn’t realize it was Rulon who got rid of the council method of government, but it makes sense.

  523. Among the ironies of the FLDS saga, Betty, is that the Barlow Boys supported Rulon Jeffs on the council issue and one-man-rule. Some of the roots of the issue go through the time of their father’s (John Y. Barlow) prophethood and that of Leroy Johnson.

    Giving absolute power to one man didn’t work out so well for most of the Barlow Boys in the long run.

    Another irony is that according to Ben Bistline, Richard Seth Jessop (Uncle Rich), was a senior FLDS member who wasn’t too keen on one-man-rule.

    Richard Seth Jessop was step-father to Ben Bistline after his father left the FLDS to return to the LDS church.

    Richard Seth Jessop is Merril Jessop’s father.

    One-man-rule seemed to be working out pretty well for Merril (for a time anyway), even though his father had reservations and concerns about it.

    Richard Seth Jessop died in 1978. He was widely respected among the FLDS members.

    And yet another irony…for such a secretive society, there is a great deal of information known and recorded about their history and now even more of the personal and collective histories is known.

    The disinfectant of sunlight.

    Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

  524. Zola Brown Jeffs Hodson’s father:

    https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/062-07-11.pdf

  525. Texas Connie When I got my Eldorado Success the only thing I read was Randy’s column. I was saving the rest for later. But I did go back and it did state that they moved Raymond.

    I checked the jail bookings in the San Angelo paper and couldn’t see anything. I checked the Tom Green inmate search thing and couldn’t find anything.

    But if a person searches Warren Jeffs it states he is at a prison when he is supposedly in an Arizona county jail.

    So who is to say.

    Who knows??? Maybe Lyle is in the Arizona jail and Warren is walking around Short Creek.

    No one has done any interviews with Warren/ we haven’t seen Warren since the “confession” on the jail video.

    Stranger things have happened.

    It is kinda hard to tell what is real and what isn’t anymore.

  526. I meant maybe LeRoy is in the Arizona jail and Warren is walking around.

    When did Warren take his trip to the Vegas hospital? Was it Vegas? and when did Leroy get released?

  527. I recall reading that LeRoy was incarcerated in OK. Don’t know when he was released.

  528. chemist,

    LeRoy Jeffs was living in Oklahoma when he was served with the federal grand jury subpoena that landed him in the Florence Detention Center on the contempt of court charge.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy493.html

    “Earlier this year, authorities located Leroy Jeffs living in Oklahoma and served him with a grand jury subpoena. But he refused to testify and was arrested on civil contempt of court charges, sources familiar with the investigation told The Associated Press.”

    Going by that article and others, he was in the detention center in Florence, Arizona.

    I don’t believe I’ve ever read anything about him being in a prison located in Oklahoma, either state or federal.

  529. Walton,

    LeRoy Jeffs was released from the federal detention center in Florence, Arizona in early September, 2006.

    Warren Jeffs was taken to the hospital in Arizona from the Mohave County jail in early July, 2008.

    Even though he is currently in an Arizona County Jail awaiting trial, Warren Jeffs would still be assigned to the Utah prison for his convictions, thus he still appears there in their database.

  530. Utah Department of Corrections offender search:

    181536 JEFFS, Warren Steed MALE INMATE Housed off-site

    http://www.cr.ex.state.ut.us/contentservices/offendersearch.asp

  531. TexasTwist: Thank you for the clarification that he was living in OK, but was incarcerated in AZ. Bad to get older and not remember the details.

  532. Anytime, chemist. And I know what you mean.

  533. Thank you texastwist.

  534. Anytime, Walton.

  535. Warren was removed from the Kingman jail, and taken to Las Vegas, the day after I had an elected official inquire about him having a phone and laptop in his cell. My guess is they decided someone was onto them, took his toys away- and he threw a fit. The Kingman hospital could find nothing wrong with him, so they flew him to Las Vegas, where they too could find nothing wrong.

    I hope someday to have a doctor tell me there is nothing wrong with me…so I can get a chartered flight to Vegas for the same diagnosis, too.

    Shortly after I put in a public records request, asking about the laptop and phone I was fired from my job for “conflict of personal interests”.

    Attendees at a dinner party overheard the Mohave County Under Sheriff, and the local newspaper editor laughing about how easy it had been to get me fired, three days before my firing was made “official”.

    Oh won’t somebody PLEASE sue me for sharing this information…I’d just love to go to court with it.

  536. Boots

    🙂

  537. Does anyone know why EPA was involved with the clean up of the Park at Short Creek?

  538. Thanks Walton. The part that really burns me up is that I’d never been fired from anything in my life before that…other than being a wife;)…and frankly, I quit that job, wasn’t fired, lol.

  539. I’ve known about the lap top and such for some time now. I am sorry you were fired but you were meant for better things. Not saying your job wasn’t a good job. You just are meant for bigger and better. jmo

    Who where they “escorting” into court in Kingman? You know the famous photo where Waren was being “shield” from cameras? The photo apppeared in the Kingmen newspaper. Was it LeRoy or was it Warren?

  540. Not sure, sugar. I concentrate on the abuse most of the time. These guys are way into following all the twists and turns of the legal stuff.

    Better things? You mean like taking my rock and sling shot and running down the hill towards Goliath I suppose…

    Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

  541. Thanks Boots and Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.

  542. I wonder who you have to bribe to get a laptop and cellphone in prison.

  543. Who has been in prison?

  544. I dunno Betty, but seems before Warren’s trial while he was in prison, he did alot of talking to members who came to visit. Dictated what he wanted said, and was still telling FLDS what to do and when.

  545. Warren was never in a prison. He supposedly has been “housed elsewhere”. Kingman county jail.

    I don’t think the LE there were bribed. If there was computer inside that cell (and I think there was) he was allowed to have it. The people working at that jail did what they were told.

  546. Why would anyone issue that instruction, Walton?

  547. In the Bible, the word for co – wife is t’zarah, which means enemy, opponent, or adversary. In her blog entry for today, Honey Dawn presents a brilliant exegesis of the term t’zarah and all of its implications. There is also a poll to see if you can guess which polygamy group she belongs to.
    Check it out…

  548. Cat Whisperer, good to know that “if you DONT [live polygamy] its OK for you cos YOU wont get danged for not doing it.”

    I hate when my friends get danged.

  549. my understanding is that he is in purgatory prison

  550. GFNY –
    I was personally relieved when I read that I could qualify for the terrestrial kingdom, but disappointed when I found out I would not qualify for the celestial kingdom.

  551. In that the big benefit of being in the celestial kingdom seems to have something to do with eternal childbearing, I fail to see why you’d be disappointed.

  552. Warren Jeffs was in the Purgatory Jail while he was awaiting trial on the Utah charges. Upon conviction he was transferred into the Utah Department of Corrections prison in Draper.

    His attorneys requested that he be able to stay in Purgatory while his case was under appeal, but that was denied and he was sent to Draper. (Poetic justice?)

    From Draper, he has been temporarily taken to the Mohave County Jail in Arizona pending trial.

    Most likely he will return to Draper or another prison in the Utah system regardless of any outcomes in Arizona.

    At some time in the future, he has an E-Ticket for a trip to Texas facility while awaiting trial(s). Utah has him for the duration of his prison sentences there. Other states and federal will have to wait their turns to be his hosts.

  553. http://www.kcsg.com/news/52530937.html

    Jeffs is in the Arizona jail awaiting trial on charges related to alleged underage marriages involving FLDS girls.

    This is dated Aug. 2009 since then of course there were a couple of more follow ups. Near death, miracle he is eating, back to normal and then again nothing.

    Warren imo has nor will ever see the inside of a prison.

  554. why do you think that Walton?

  555. Wayland Wightman Wyler: Check the story out at the hope site.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705269258/Man-sentenced-in-southern-Utah-sex-abuse-case.html

    Sentenced to prison
    Look for his name on the Prison list: housed off sight

  556. Warren Jeffs is in the county jail in Kingman, Arizona, which is the Mohave County seat. This is the county where Colorado City is located.

    The old ancestral home you might say…

  557. Boots did you say ancestral home or incestral home?

  558. On the Canadian front, it looks like the polys are joining forces with the polygamists in pushing to overturn section 293 of Canada’s criminal code. Sweet!!

    Vancouver polyamorists to intervene in polygamy case
    FREEDOMS / Those with multiple partners argue to nix dated poly law

    http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Vancouver_polyamorists_to_intervene_in_polygamy_case-7900.aspx

  559. either way it describes the area.

  560. LadySadie,

    I almost said exactly that but was attempting in my Southern way to be mannerly…bless their hearts.

  561. HERE YOU GO WALTON……

    Tom Green County, Texas
    Jail ID 345493
    Schleicher County SO
    Confined 11/20/2009 05:09pm

    Defendant
    Jessop, Raymond Merril
    2420 Cr 300
    Eldorado, Tx 76936
    White Male 5′ 8″ 160 09/01/1971
    Hair Brown
    Eyes Blue
    SO# 82340
    Cause Charge Disposition Bond
    COMM*991 SEXUAL ASSAULT CHILD 11/20/2009 – Held NOBOND

    Seems like the Eldorado newspaper was right.

  562. http://justice.co.tom-green.tx.us/Scripts/UVlink.isa/tgcrisc/WEBSERV/JailSearch

    Sorry, there were no matches for your inquiry. You may use your browser to back up to the inquiry form and revise your entry or you may return to the search type selection page.

    😦

    Anonymous thank you for trying. Like I said earlier it is really hard to tell what is real or not.

    Parker and Co. should have never played the stupid games with the paper work. Mind games are also a form of abuse. Anyone wonder why I kept asking where those Allred boys were? Games played for over 5 years had the stench of Allred and Co. imo

    And as I’ve said before it is long time over due to rip that band-aid off and let people heal.

  563. Federal prosecutors said some of the letters dealt with Barlow’s history with the Fundamentalist LDS Church, while others threatened to kill IRS agents.

    Court documents say Barlow began writing the letters after he was expelled from the FLDS Church in 2003. Barlow was “seeking the recovery of his family and property” in the letters, which “became increasingly violent,” according to court documents.
    http://thehopeorg.org/news_abuses_des_Thomas_Barlow_resentenced.html

  564. http://justice.co.tom-green.tx.us/Scripts/UVlink.isa/tgcrisc/WEBSERV/JailSearch

    Walton you have to put the last name in first.

  565. Anonymous I got it. I typed in Jessop Raymond should have typed in Jessop Merril. Thanks for helping me.

    I suppose I should be embarrassed about all this but I am not. I am angry that a person should be second guessing what is read in newspapers. I am angry that when I see photos from a court hearing or outside that I have to look at every photo closely and read 5 other stories and pictures to see if it is true. I am angry that I am looking at court documents about a current case and they are from another time frame. I am angry that Parker and Co. are playing stupid butt games.

    I am angry that well educated people are acting like fools to allow such things to carry on.

    I still think enough is enough already.

  566. Blog owner I apologize for having my meltdown here on your board. Thanks for letting me vent. But better yet thanks for letting everyone post here.

    To those that helped by sharing links a BIG thank you.

    I am angry but I really needed to see that Raymond Jessop was indeed in a jail. I still think Parker is a butt head and I hope that is the last load of crap on the truck load he has been driving.

  567. he’s really there walton, prairie dresses have been seen entering the jail. the van to the state pen will probably come on monday or tuesday. i was told that it usually makes rounds on the 1st and the 15th. i’m guessing there wasn’t enough time to do the paperwork for the van on the 15th.

  568. So, if prairie dresses are coming and going, just fill out a freedom of information request and ask for a list of his visitors. That could be useful in the future.

  569. There ought to be a legal remedy for all these spurious lawsuits intended only to bankrupt and damage the UEP trust.

    Parker & Co. are stealing from the people of Short Creek, nobody else.

  570. i plan to ask on monday.

  571. Having children to bond a marriage is exactly FLDS 101.

    And remember, any feelings otherwise are covered under the “keep sweet” rules.

    That Elissa had several miscarriages and this advice was exactly wrong is a choo choo train Warren should have seen coming. But he was more interested in forcing a solution and dismissing this distressed child than providing any help…

    If one wants to hear this FLDS “The woman needs to have a child to love to make the family work” doctrine, go to this search and its the top movie, “Damned to Heaven”, free to watch online with only a few car commercials. 81 minutes

    http://www.sling.com/search/damned

  572. thanks for the link.

  573. Walton,

    I confirmed what you posted about Wayland Wyler.

    I find it interesting that he is being housed “off-site”.

    Do you know why he is “off-site”?

    Do you know where he is by chance?

    Any info you could provide would be very much appreciated.

  574. And Walton,

    No need to apologize for venting.

    I sure didn’t take it as a “meltdown”.

    This issue gets frustrating and discouraging sometimes.

    Blogs are a great place to vent that frustration.

    You care! That is all that matters.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all.

    I hope it was a wonderful day for each and all.

    God bless America.

  575. Excellent letter to the editor in the SLC commending Texas for doing what Utah has failed to do: prosecute FLDS men for sexual abuse of minors. http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_13868794

  576. Anonymous concerning the Wayland Wyler story it was bad. Really bad. The guy imo should never have been able to bond out. And then when he did they didn’t have his trial for a long time. Lots of no shows, lost dates yadda yadda yadda. (BS for short)

    So they issue a warrant for his arrest and supposedly the local yokels (Warren cops) didn’t know there was a warrant out of rhim. More BS. The more that the whole Child Abuse issues come to light in the Big Media they finally decide to drive around looking for him. Whatever.

    Where do you suppose they found him? It was either at his home or his mothers home in a garage. They had to take him to the hospital as they found him just in time. He was “unconscious” from carbon monoxide poisioning. Mmmm hmmm

    So then they wait till he is about to be released and they nab him.

    He was facing up to 30 years of prison time but they ended up doing the legal shuffle so the victim and family could get on with their lives. Which I understand to a point because it was really tough on the little girl and her mother.

    The whole court thing was messed up more than any story I’ve read about. I understand that the accused should be able to face the accuser however this was a very little girl and the poswer of intimidation can even get to the big guys.

    So the guy gets an eval and whatever they find out plays into it all somewhat. Who did the eval? Not sure.

    If the guy really tried to do himself in, it wasn’t UNTIL they were going to actually arrest him and keep his arse.

    If he were being held in a mental ward on the prison ground they would say as such. Look at all the coverage about Mitchell and Brazee.

    The last I heard the guy was getting close to being reviewed for parole. The last article I read he had did 455 days.

    The victim was a little girl who he sexually abused starting at the age of 5. It went on for 3 years before she told her mother.

    Her mother went to the authorities.

  577. Nice. He was sentenced to 1-15 years for sexually assaulting a very young girl for several years.

    In theory, that means he could be home for Christmas.

  578. Did anyone see Huge Ego Child Mcbryde’s entry from today, castigating Natalie Malonis?
    What a jerk he is …

  579. I don’t bother to visit Huge Ego’s blog anymore. What did Natalie do now to put his knickers in a twist? Breathe? Her job? Or is she sacrificing babies again?

    Just kidding Natalie, if you read this. No disrespect intended to you. 😀

  580. Apparently her memo on behalf of Carolyn Jessop to Matt Smith indicates to Huge Ego that Ms. Malonis is grandstanding and that she and her clients are idiots.
    Of course Huge Ego is the only idiot there.

  581. Thats to bad,,, of course, because Ms Malonis is doing what an attorney is supposed to do,, protecting and representing her client.. Which MCHugo would know nothing about.

  582. It seems pretty simple to me. Natalie Malonis is doing Matt’s job for him because she’s a woman and knows how to do her job right.

    Really, is it a common practice for prosecutors in Arizona to leave their witnesses to the wolves? What’s wrong with the man.

    As for Huge Ego, he just can’t stand to see women who think for themselves and stand up for themselves. It’s his own personal problem. Maybe one day he’ll grow up and become a real man.

    😉

  583. I just watched the “Damned to Heaven” documentary. I was very positively impressed. I thought it was very respectful of the rank and file members. You also got to see the views of the life from a variety of different points of view including people who still believe in the religion and think Warren is prophet to Flora and everyone in between. To me, it focused on abuse and the cult/control aspect. Powerful stuff.

  584. Hi Walton,

    I am very familiar with the Wayland Wyler case, but you did a great job recapping it for the other readers here, who don’t know about Wayland and what a pig he is.

    What I was hoping you could help answer or research for me please is:

    Why is Wayland being housed “off-site”?

    And where is he?

    Any info you could provide would be very much appreciated.

  585. I watched the “Damned to Heaven” documentary too and I’m now ordering “Banking on Heaven”. It’s available through amazon.

  586. I think Banking on Heaven is better. What bothered me about Damned to Heaven is that they don’t tell you that a lot of the people interviewed no longer follow Warren but DO follow Winston Blackmore, former FLDS bishop of Bountiful, Canada who was ex’d by Warren. Blackmore is just as guilty of controlling everyone’s lives and marrying underage brides as Warren’s gang.

  587. i really thought flora showing a child’s history notebook and it being full of only priesthood history was dramatic. my mother watched it and she couldn’t believe they weren’t taught regular history. she said that she’s amazed that the yfz ranch gets away with not teaching texas history. every student in texas is required to take texas history in the 7th grade. she was appalled when i told her most don’t get to the 7th grade.

  588. TexasConnie,

    Thanks so much for providing the link to the SL Trib editorial.

    It speaks volumnes !

  589. Anonymous Sorry about the recap thing. I can’t say for sure where Wayland Wyler is kept. From what I can figure he isn’t in a prison because they want to keep him safe and then again maybe you could say he is on a mission.

    I don’t have a link to back that up. I either have stomach problems or it is just that gut feeling I get now and then. What can I say?

    But I will do some checking and get back to you.

    Wasn’t Matt Smith the guy that brought Gary Engles into town?

  590. i really thought flora showing a child’s history notebook and it being full of only priesthood history was dramatic. my mother watched it and she couldn’t believe they weren’t taught regular history. she said that she’s amazed that the yfz ranch gets away with not teaching texas history.
    …………………

    Doesn’t Warren Jeffs teach that the moon landing was a hoax, because it means Gentiles could land on his Celestial planets and spoil the party for the FLDS?

  591. Why is Wayland being housed “off-site”?

    And where is he?

    Any info you could provide would be very much appreciated.

    I know that when TDC says someone is housed “off site” it usually means they’re being held in a county jail somewhere. You can bench warrant a TDC prisoner to a county jail for a number of reasons. It could be anything from further proceedings in their case to responding in some civil case or needing their testimony in some case unrelated to them.

  592. Next Al will be saying ‘Gee, just because one family holds a woman and her children captive, refusing to allow her to escape, that doesn’t mean all polygamists are bad.
    ==============================================
    My apologies, I’ve been away. Aye, Boots I agree. Press charges on the one family.

  593. ….every student in texas is required to take texas history in the 7th grade. she was appalled when i told her most don’t get to the 7th grade.
    ==========================================================
    May I see some documentation please? Thanks.

  594. Al,

    Considering that the entire community, including local “law enforcement” has conspired to keep Ruby’s whereabouts concealed, I’m afraid *one family* just wouldn’t cut it.

    And if one of those kids on the YFZ knows anything about Texas history beyond the fact that Joseph Smith claimed Texas was the new promised land and was planing to bring the whole group here before he died, I’ll eat my hat.

    Show them the San Jacinto flag and ask them to write an essay on where it came from and what it represents…LMAO!

  595. “As this is written (September, 2003), Ruby is said to be living in Fred Jessops huge polygamous home in Hildale Utah. She was legally married to Haven Barlow as soon as she turned 16. At about that time she became pregnant and has had a baby now. She is expecting her second child.”
    ========================================
    Just in case you are wondering where Ruby Jessop is.

    Show them the San Jacinto flag and ask them to write an essay on where it came from and what it represents…LMAO!
    =================================================
    I would like to see all Texan high school students do so. Not only for history knowledge but to check out sentence structure, logical sequencing of ideas, gramatical errors… and so forth.

  596. We already have that, alinusara.

    It’s called TAKS testing.

  597. “Ruby is said to be living in Fred Jessops huge polygamous home…”

    FREE RUBY JESSOP AND ALL HER CHILDREN!

  598. We already have that, alinusara.

    It’s called TAKS testing.
    ==========================================================
    Thanks. I had to take a semester of Pacific Northwest history a long time ago. I’m not sure how requirements like that works for private schools or children who have been homeschooled.
    ==============================================
    FREE RUBY JESSOP AND ALL HER CHILDREN!
    ==========================================================
    Ruby Jessop is roundabout 21 or 22 now. If you find her and she desires rescuing then have at it. As for her children it appears they was legally conceived so there is no such beast as freeing children from parents who love them unless they are the victim of abuse. Otherwise it’s called kidnapping which our legal system frowns upon.

  599. NOTICE: DO NOT FEED THE TROLL

    Violators will be whipped with a wet noodle.

  600. TAKS is not required for private schools or homeschooling.

    Most private school accreditation organizations do require Texas private schools to administer standardized achievement tests to maintain their accredidation.

    I have family members who teach and attended private schools in Texas. They were administered tests and/or give the tests every year.

    Some of the homeschool organizations also encourage their members to test their students.

    The only statuatory requirement in Texas for private schools and home schools is that their curriculum contain a course on citizenship.

    The vast majority of private schools and home schoolers in Texas go well beyond the statuatory requirement.

  601. Can I have mine served with an Alfredo sauce, Ron?

    My bad.

  602. Thank you, Ron. I’ll try to avoid the wet noodle treatment, especially for a POS like Al.

    Boots walks away mumbling…do not feed, do not feed, do not feed, do not feed :::deep breath::: do not feed, do not feed….

  603. The only statuatory requirement in Texas for private schools and home schools is that their curriculum contain a course on citizenship.
    ======================================================
    Thanks TT. I guess there is no use bitching about what FLDS parents teach their children about Texas state history until Texas legislatures change the laws.

  604. “Doesn’t Warren Jeffs teach that the moon landing was a hoax, because it means Gentiles could land on his Celestial planets and spoil the party for the FLDS?”

    I think the reason they can’t believe that we’ve landed on the moon is because Joseph Smith prophesied that there were people living there. Since the moon can’t support life and, oddly enough, no life was found on the moon, apparently it couldn’t have happened. 😉

  605. Joseph Smith prophesized that?

    I want some of what he was ingesting. I’ll have to ask ole Joe what it was the next time he pipes up in one of my dirunal or nocturnal hellish sessions.

    Joseph Smith should have been a science fiction writer.

    Or maybe he was.

  606. Heh! Quite a few folks believe that the moon landing was some sort of Hollywood stunt. I tend to believe it’s real myself for no other reason then conspiracies tend to fall apart the more people involved in keeping them.

  607. Twist said :
    “Joseph Smith should have been a science fiction writer.

    Or maybe he was.”
    There is evidence that the Book Of Mormon was plagarized from an unpublished manuscript written by Solomon Spalding, who had written a historical fiction novel about American mound builders.

  608. Alinusara your SO right about the movie people making up the stuff about men walking about on the moon!! They didnt see ANY folk that Joseph was telling about and that sure shows it was WRONG! Rebeckah and CatWhisperer are my friends so they know ALL about it. If you want the TRUTH you can go to http://almostheaven-honeydawn.blogspot.com/2009/11/pratts-birthday-moon-men.html
    Blessings!
    HoneyDawn

  609. I value the free exchange of ideas too much to participate in a “don’t feed the trolls” campaign.

    Duane was hiding behind assumed identities to foment hatred. Alin has never done that, and I personally don’t like the idea of trying to freeze him out.

  610. As a conservative, I used to strongly support the right to home school (even though I personally thought the idea was daft). Now I think all home-based and private schooling should be required to meet state standards for curriculum and testing. There is no constitutional infringement in this that I can see.

    Even with that, home schooling is a perfect cover for child abuse, because it takes away kids’ best “safe harbor” (their school), and their best advocate (their teacher). But at least if the kids have a decent education, they stand some chance of understanding how to seek help.

    An aside: as an evangelical, I simply don’t understand the appeal of home schooling. A faith that is afraid of the greater world is pretty frickin’ useless. My kids attend/attended a public school where Christians are a minority. It’s done nothing to damage their faith; in fact, I think it strengthened it.

  611. Ben Winslow with FOX News in SLC did a really good story on the LeBarons.

    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-deliver-us-from-ervil,0,1408576.story

  612. Terry Greene Sterling with The Daily Beast in NYC did a really good story on the new tours of Short Creek.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-11-08/polygamy-tourism/full/

  613. GFNY,
    As an evangelical, I attended public school.
    I found that it did nothing to change my faith, my faith was in fact strengthened. I was exposed to different ideologies, and I developed interpersonal skills which I would not have had the opportunity to develop had I been schooled in a sheltered home environment.
    Only people who are weak in their own faith are afraid to have their children interact with people of other belief systems.

  614. Honey Dawn, was that you, girl?
    I adore your blog, and I am sad to have missed your appearance here!
    I will review your article on men on the moon immediately !

  615. You know Boots, I just finished reading Elissa Wall’s book and it has suddenly dawned on me that Lily in her book has to be Ruby. Am I correct? It was the story about the ex-boyfriend going to find her and bring her back on Warren’s orders that did it. I remember reading Joseph Rohbock’s account of that event.

  616. Yes, Lily in Elissa’s book is really Ruby Jessop. They were both transported to Caliente Hot Springs motel in Caliente, Nevada on the same day when Warren “married” them off as child brides.

    Uncle Fred also sent all of the couples off together for a “honeymoon”.

  617. ProudTexan,

    Yeah, you can’t even imagine the prayers that have gone up, the investigating that’s been done or the tears that have fallen over Ruby Jessop.

    If she ever does see freedom, she will know that we all kept fighting for her, and she wasn’t ever forgotten. And we won’t forget her children either.

    Ruby WANTED out.

    Free Ruby Jessop!

  618. PS – for those who have not read Carolyn’s book “Escape”, Caliente Hot Springs motel was owned by Carolyn’s husband Merril Jessop.

    Carolyn lived at the motel for a while and managed it.

    FLDS child bride “marriages” were often performed there.

    Perhaps they thought that “anything goes” in Nevada, so marrying off little girls would be OK, too.

    Warren also performed a few “marriages” at the Holiday Inn Express in Kanab, Utah.

    I guess he thought it would be a fun place to tour the Western Movie Studio while they “honeymooned”.

  619. Matter of fact, Al,

    Maybe you know someone who knows someone..so tell you what:

    As soon as the FLDS produces Ruby Jessop, and every last one of her biological children, in a room, with FLDS, NO ARIZONA or UTAH law enforcement, and lets me, two Texas Rangers, Natalie Malonis and my board, which includes a medical doctor talk to her for one full hour, and then make the choice whether or not she wants to walk OUT with us and come to Texas, or stay there with them, you can tell me that Ruby is FREE.

    Until then, you have no standing.

  620. I of course meant to say in a room, with *NO* FLDS, NO ARIZONA or UTAH law enforcement

  621. This all makes me wonder why Warren hasn’t been charged with Mann Act violations for having these underage little girls transported across state lines (Utah and/or Arizona) to “marry” them off as child brides in Nevada.

    Oh yeah …(slap my forehead)… we are talking about LE in Utah and Arizona.

    Utah – the state run by the LDS Church.

    Arizona – the state with an LDS Moroni statue adorning the state capitol building.

    Dummy me!

  622. Hi Boots,
    Looks like you and I are the night owls on the blog.

    I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving.

  623. Thank you, Anon, I have lots to be thankful for this year.

    I hope it is the same for you.

  624. Boots, I’d take that one hour w/ Ruby Jessop, under your stipulations, in a heartbeat. Chances of it happening are next to nil, but count me in on that conversation.

  625. Yes, [name redacted], we know you don’t want anyone going after the pedophiles and abusers. You’ve always made that quite clear.

    I know some forensic investigators in LE here in Texas and in California who would love to take a gander inside your machine.

    Shoo.

  626. Boots, I thought [name redacted] was banned.
    Time to ban [name redacted].

    Most evangelicals don’t home school.
    Most evangelicals don’t believe in the six day creation narrative,
    we believe the world was created in six “yom” in Hebrew which means a literal day or an indefinite period of time.
    Evangelical and fundamentalist are not necessarily interchangeable terms.

    ( [name redacted] by ADMIN)

  627. Boots – I hope and pray that someday you’ll get your wish and that Ruby and all of her children will be able to have a totally FREE choice in leaving or staying. Telling someone they are damned to hell if they leave isn’t a free choice, its more of the same crap that they’ve always used.

    Something I wondered about from Elissa’s book is: Was it Carolyn that Lamont wrote the affidavit about?

  628. Ruby isnt the only prisoner. There are 8000 children being raised up in that god-forsaken patch of child molesters, but do Utah and Arizona care?

    Hardly.

  629. “As a conservative, I used to strongly support the right to home school (even though I personally thought the idea was daft).”

    Homeschooling can be a much better education than public schooling, if done right.

    “Now I think all home-based and private schooling should be required to meet state standards for curriculum and testing. There is no constitutional infringement in this that I can see.”

    I absolutely agree. And I think homeschooling guidelines should be federally mandated, not state mandated, as many states don’t seem to give a rip about how well students are educated.

    “Even with that, home schooling is a perfect cover for child abuse, because it takes away kids’ best “safe harbor” (their school), and their best advocate (their teacher). But at least if the kids have a decent education, they stand some chance of understanding how to seek help.”

    That’s yet another benefit of mandatory testing. If students are either being visited by an evaluator or brought in to a testing site for tests then there is a chance for them to speak to a third party if needed. Perhaps abuse recognition and options needs to be part of the mandatory education.

    “An aside: as an evangelical, I simply don’t understand the appeal of home schooling. A faith that is afraid of the greater world is pretty frickin’ useless. My kids attend/attended a public school where Christians are a minority. It’s done nothing to damage their faith; in fact, I think it strengthened it.”

    I was pretty fundamentalist while my children were growing up. I didn’t homeschool mine until 7th/8th grade. When I did it was because the teasing of the other students was well on its way to utterly destroying my son’s self esteem. My daughter went back to public school in the 9th grade (and had no trouble slipping into school life academically and socially) and my son just went for his GED at 18 and is in college now. They both attended their local school during homeschooling for Band, too. If they’d been interested they could have also attended for other classes that I couldn’t possibly teach them, like a foreign language or math more advanced than Algebra. It is an excellent system in my mind as it doesn’t cost the homeschooling parent to expand their child’s education and it allows the children access to a social and a “safe” group of people (in the event of abuse at home). Of course those who homeschool to hide abuse are unlikely to take advantage of that system.

  630. As someone who professionally teaches in the sciences, I don’t think that the average parent has the competencies to teach advanced math and science to high school students. English literature, history, social sciences, yes – high school math and science, no. That being said –
    I understand and respect fully those parents who feel the need to pull their children out of public school for difficulties with violence, crime, drug abuse, etc. in the school.

  631. I agree cat. I also don’t think the average parent has the skills to teach their high school aged child to write correctly. I not talking about penmanship, I’m talking about sentence structure.

  632. As soon as the FLDS produces Ruby Jessop, and every last one of her biological children, in a room, with FLDS, NO ARIZONA or UTAH law enforcement, and lets me, two Texas Rangers, Natalie Malonis and my board, which includes a medical doctor talk to her for one full hour, and then make the choice whether or not she wants to walk OUT with us and come to Texas, or stay there with them, you can tell me that Ruby is FREE.
    ========================================================
    Ruby is an adult woman so there is no such thing as anyone producing her. Whether or not she submits to an interview is up to her. As for her and her husband’s children, they was conceived within the parameters of a legal marriage and I’m sure her husband would have a great deal to say about strangers talking to them.

  633. The math and sciences were packets I got at Whiz Kids and obviously prepared him for both a GED and for his college courses. I believe he did take an accelerated refresher course for the basic algebra, but he had the basics and had just forgotten them so it was a short 1 quarter course. Science I just taught the basics and encouraged him to research areas of interest. As for writing, I love to write and I’ve been teaching my children since they were preschool. (They used to dictate stories to me, I’d write a few sentences per page and then they’d illustrate them.) Both of my children read, write, and comprehend very well.

    Then again, each parent is different and there are no guarantees that every parent is going to have the basic skills to teach things like that. My personal weakness is math and theoretical and/or math reliant sciencies. I’m pretty good with basic science, though, and this summer I’m doing a science exploration week with my grandchildren, niece, and my cousins children. It’s going to be really fun.

  634. Nice Rebeckah. The advantage homeschooling has over public schools is less time used for administrative purposes and more time actually teaching as well as learning. With the internet you can easily look up any areas that you are a bit foggy about.

  635. Rebeckah,
    You write quite well.
    If you need help with the science exploration or your book, let me know. My competencies, other than the those which you already know about from our previous email discussion, are in biology, psychology, and organic chemistry.

  636. The FLDS is in control of Ruby Jessop.

    Nobody in law enforcement in Utah or Arizona has the balls or the character to ever rescue Ruby Jessop.

    Regardless if Ruby Jessop’s husband didn’t like the idea, if she is free and not his property, she should be able to travel anywhere, for any reason with her children. They are her children, just as much as they are his. She has a right to leave with her children.

    I wonder if she even knows that is the truth.

    FREE RUBY JESSOP!

  637. The transmission of facts is only a small part of what happens in school. School helps develop so-called ‘executive function’ because the best schools give kids far less attention than home-schooling does.

    Less attention can be a good thing, as long as parents provide judicious support. Schoolchildren learn how to stand on their own two feet—meet structured expectations, organize their time, meet deadlines, negotiate and compromise, troubleshoot, etc. Above all, they are responsible for their success or failure.

    I am not fazed by the content of my kids’ classes—I could teach them in every discipline except modern languages. But I can’t provide that kind of separation and independence. No parent can.

    BTW, I’ve known many evangelicals who home-school(ed), which is why I commented in the first place. They aren’t worried about curriculum (i.e. the teaching of evolution), but they worry about problems like drug use, drinking, or sexual activity.

  638. Boots, it seems as if all we can do for Ruby Jessop right now is pray. So I encourage anyone who believes in the power of prayer to do exactly that.

  639. Will do, GFNY

  640. GFNY,
    You feel that you have the knowledge base to teach calculus, physics, biology, and chemistry even if that is not your everyday practice in your occupation ? I know I can teach physics, biology, and chemistry because I use all three every day at the job. Calculus however would require that I brush up a bit.

  641. I taught at a Charter school. We had a lot of home schooled kids for Art, band,science and languages.I have to admit, the home schooled kids where easier to teach, they where more attentive and all of them are now college graduates. They had learned to learn for themselves, something I failed to see in most of my other students.
    Of interest was, that none of the home schooled kids enrolled at the regular high school for art, languages, science and band,
    they preferred our small charter school.

  642. CW, don’t forget that I’ve been helping kids with high school and AP level classes for seven years (with no immediate end in sight).

    You might be overestimating the complexity of what is taught in high school and AP-level classes. The only science which has had a significant paradigm shift is biology, which is essentially an entirely new discipline from when I was in high school.

    Having said that, there are important things taught in high school that I can’t begin to teach:

    1. Respect and friendship with kids from other backgrounds;
    2. Sportsmanship;
    3. Respect for authority figures;
    4. That it’s not enough to know everything; you have to actually do the work;
    5. That your mom isn’t going to bail you out when you screw up;
    6. That, conversely, your mom is going to fight for you when you’re right;
    7. How to be quiet, how to walk in a line, how to wait to be called on;
    8. That there are responses suitable for one situation but not another;
    9. That you have to work as team even when the laziest, dumbest, pettiest kid in the whole school ends up messing up your whole project;
    10. That presentation matters…

    …I could go on and on.

  643. In New York, there is no option for home-schooled kids to enroll for non-academic classes. It’s either-or.

  644. I don’t know if homeschooled children can enroll for nonacademic classes or not. I know that if your school doesn’t offer a particular sport and you want to play it, you can go to that school for 1 period a day and compete for them. An example is here in San Angelo, 1 of the high schools has swimming and the other doesn’t. Students who are in the school district without swimming go to the swimming high school last period each day and can compete for the swimming school. the same if true for gymnastics. i think both schools have all the same sports otherwise.

  645. Rebekah, I didn’t mean to imply that you can’t teach writing, I was just generalizing about the public in general.

  646. GFNY,
    I agree wholeheartedly on your items 1-10 but remember I am a biologist by training, thus I view the knowledge base of those who teach home school to be of a lesser quality. An appropriate home school teacher for biology might be a physician – researcher who teaches at a medical school who volunteered to teach at night. That would be acceptable to me.

  647. ProudTexan, I understand and didn’t feel attacked. I agree with a lot of what Greetings is saying. I wouldn’t have homeschooled my children at all except that the social aspect was destroying my son. (And I tried for YEARS to work with the school on that too.) My daughter only homeschooled because she had to do anything her brother did. Then she missed the social aspect of school and went back with my blessings. I think it helped both of them enormously with the social aspects that they went to elementary and middle school. They also got to attend the band classes and I involved them in things like Silver Spurs (a folk dancing group for children) and various parks and recreation activities our area does. Every area is different but there are plenty of socialization opportunities for children if parents look for them, I think.

    Catwhisperer, a lot of the good homeschoolers that I have met do something like that. They take turns teaching all of their children in their specialties. One teaches a foreign language, the other teaches biology, another might teach woodworking. If done properly homeschooling is a wonderful training for life. I don’t think enough homeschooling parents do it properly, though, so I understand Greetings’ misgivings.

  648. Cat, thanks for the offer, I will probably ask questions again. Right now I’m trying to figure out exactly how the medical community (and the nearby Air Force Base) will respond to my plague. I think I need to coral a hospital administrator and pick their brain. 😉

  649. ProudTexan-

    We will work with each other, we will work side by side.

    We will work with each other, we will work side by side.

    And we’ll guard each wo-man’s dignity and save each wo-man’s pride.

    I always loved that particular Christian spiritual, even better with my edits,lol.

    I hope everybody will choose to get up off of their knees soon. I’ve heard “prayer talk” for the last 5 years. I heard lots of it in Utah and Arizona.

    I’m not against it…I’m just sayin’.

    I liked St. Augustine’s take on things. My redneck version goes like this, ‘Preach it in and out and if necessary use yer words’.

    A Modern Desert Spiritual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UiY3XsRvK4

  650. An even better version, and so aptly located, too.

  651. If you think Ruby’s at the YFZ, my brother is coming down for Christmas and he wants to go out there to see the place. Maybe we should ring the call button and ask to see her.

  652. PT,

    No Ruby is not at the YFZ, nor would she ever be sent to the ranch. She’s not “holy enough”.

    You can always ring and ask to visit the cemetery, though;)

  653. hmmmmmmmmmm, good thought. we could take some flowers with us for the little rohbock boy and barbara.

    i wonder if anyone has explained to barbara’s daughters that they are at risk for breast cancer.

  654. my question is if someone isn’t “holy enough” then why don’t they quit telling them the crap about being “damned to hell” and let them leave already. it’s got to be tough keeping so many in line with threats of eternal damnation. just keep those who are stupid enough to believe warren’s crap and let the rest leave.

    wonder if i could get on warren’s visitor list. maybe he and i need to have a chat and then he could have a new nocturnal revelation.

  655. Boots, prayer and action are not mutually exclusive.

    If there were any action that could rescue Ruby right now, you and Flora would already be doing it. In the absence of that, don’t dismiss the power of prayer.

    When I recognize that my hands are tied, I pray that God send a saint to act as His hands and feet in that person’s life, and to show me ways in which I can serve. Circumstances shift.

  656. Rebeckah,
    Hospital administrators would be notified by the treating physicians and the laboratory pathologists / microbiologists in the event of viral infection. The specimens would then be sent to CDC.
    Every hospital has a disaster plan which includes this information.

    Proud,
    Why are Barbara’s daughters at risk for breast ca ?
    They have the BRAC gene ?

  657. PT, in a perfect world, I would want to be able to spend an hour a day as Warren’s court-ordered confessor, going over his theology and history and dictations with an intellectual fist full of razor blades.

    It would be good for him on so many levels.

  658. Rebeckah,
    I neglected to mention that the State and County Depts of Health are called before the CDC

  659. Warren needs a psychotherapist and probably a shot of prolixin decanoate.

  660. since barbara died of breast cancer, her daughters would have a greater chance than the normal person since they say that breast cancer runs in families especially on the maternal side. that would also put annette’s daughters on notice in a normal world.

  661. Sheeple don’t really leave much of anything and there’s no telling what sort of medications Ruby has been on while in Shortcreek either.

    Maybe Ross Perot will run for governor. At least he knew what to do with a rescue team, lol.

  662. CW, my armchair diagnosis is that WSJ is a classic sociopath (or psychopath, if you insist on being modern). Psychopathy being not treatable with either psychotherapy or antipsychotics, I think we have to go back to an older model: the fire-and-brimstone confessor who holds his penitent’s squirming soul in a pincer grip.

    It’s just my little cosmic joke that said confessor ought to be a woman of color.

  663. ROFL @ GFNY’s cosmic joke. Absolutely perfect!

  664. I have to ask my husband to analyze Warren’s dictations and dreams, and ask him to give me an opinion. Some prolixin would definitely slow him down and make him more manageable, as well as stiffen him up a bit.

    Proud, I didn’t know that about Barbara and Annette. Certainly their girls are at risk. Both Barbara and Annette’s daughters need BRAC analysis.

  665. GFNY,

    I understand what you are saying.

    It was not an attack on any believing person. It was a simple and repetitive observation.

  666. Hey you guys Warren was seen by a group of Doctors prior to trial. There should be some documentation over Brookes blog. The original blog site.

    A group of Doctors asking him questions to which he answered them almost nothing. Which in itself said something.

    I can’t remember where this group of Doctors came from but if memory serves me right there was a “Dr.Barlow” that visited with him a few times.

    Interesting.

  667. CW, my armchair diagnosis is that WSJ is a classic sociopath (or psychopath, if you insist on being modern).
    ———–
    If I had to pick one, actually, it seems like acquired situational narcissism describes WSJ perfectly.

    Unlike regular narcissism, acquired situational narcissism develops in late adolescence or adulthood as a result of fame, power and wealth. Within his own little chain of isolated communities, Warren Jeffs had exactly that. Think celebrity, CEO, or, in this case, Profit.

    I read an article in the Times that goes into the disorder in more depth:
    “When a billionaire or celebrity walks into the room, everyone looks at him….He’s a prince. He has the power to change your life, and everyone is aware of that. He gets so used to everyone looking at him that he stops looking back. Pretty soon he’s behaving like a four-year-old, except now he doesn ’t have a sibling to bring him back to reality.”
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article575000.ece

    This kind of fawning adulation and attention must be very seductive for someone who grew up as just one of his father’s many, many kids.

  668. Provide me with a link to Warren’s dreams, and I will have the good doctor take a look.

  669. Ellie, I rather agree with your take. He wasn’t consistent enough to be a “born” narcissist, I don’t think. He actually showed compassion a time or two that didn’t seem calculated and his attachment to Naomi would preclude full narcissism (I think). Of course, I’m no expert. Still, it kind of seemed to me that he was muddling along with more power than one man should have and some major childhood insecurities. Yay polygymay, right?

  670. GFNY,

    Things you learn in school that are not on your list that are very hard to learn when home schooled:

    1. Your parents may think you are a special snowflake but no one else does. Deal.
    2. You can’t take off for two weeks just because the weather is especially nice.
    3. There are consequences to not finishing an assignment by a particular time.

    I’m not a fan of home schooling unless there are overwhelming reasons (like serious health issues or you live in the unpopulated part of Alaska).

  671. “my question is if someone isn’t “holy enough” then why don’t they quit telling them the crap about being “damned to hell” and let them leave already.”

    You don’t release a healthy, functional slave while they still have some usefulness.

  672. I’m more or less neutral about polygamy; I guess if all parties are consenting then go for it. As for Warren Jeffs he did some incredibly stupid things one being not bothering to defend lawsuits another being making some powerful enemies.

  673. Cat, dreams are a very small part of Warren’s oeuvre. Your husband should read his dictations, because they give a far broader picture of the man. (Note: these dictations and dreams were dictated to his faithful amanuensis, Naomi Jeffs. Naomi had so much power in this role that she has to be considered as an actor, not merely a vessel.)

    Unfortunately, these PDF files are not searchable, so looking for something specific is like searching for a needle in a haystack.

    This one opens with a dream:

    https://texasflds.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jessop-9_part1.pdf

    Here is a dictation which includes some of his fundamental themes:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/special-duties-to-daughters/

    Your husband might enjoy listening to tapes of Jeffs preaching:

    There was a dream that involved a woman on a wooded hill and Warren being furious with a man for attempting to supplant Rulon. It would be a great one to show your husband. Can anyone find it?

  674. 1. Your parents may think you are a special snowflake but no one else does. Deal.
    =========================================================
    This I agree with.
    ==========================================================
    2. You can’t take off for two weeks just because the weather is especially nice.
    ======================================================
    A 2 week camping trip can be an incredible learning experience.
    =========================================================
    3. There are consequences to not finishing an assignment by a particular time.
    ====================================================
    With good parenting there most certainly be consequences even more so then schools where the child might shrug and say “so I got a C- rather then a B, Who cares?”

  675. As far as I know anyone unhappy can leave at any time. Leaving with children is a bit harder because both men and women has parental rights as well.

  676. Leaving with children is a bit harder because both men and women has parental rights as well.
    ————-
    Leaving with 5+ kids, no money, an education that stopped short of high school graduation, little knowledge of the outside world, and a small support system (since many of your so-called family members & friends will turn their backs on you for your sin), is more than just a bit hard.

  677. Not to mention that damned to hell thing.

    Breaking with one’s faith is not easy.

  678. i don’t think leaving is accepted. they don’t want you to walk out on them, they want the power to kick you to the curb.

    if it was truly free and they didn’t marry off underaged girls and use marriage as a weapon then i wouldn’t have any problem with it. if it were free, susanna barlow wouldn’t have been crying at her remarriage, she would still be living with her husband and the father of her children. if it were truly free, there would be no need for high walls, guard towers and locked gates.

  679. GFNY,

    Being willing to put feet to our prayers so far as we are able is important, but I agree there is a time for embracing faith in a God who can work amazingly well all on His own.

  680. yeah, i forgot about being damned to hell – thanks for reminding me twist.

  681. does anyone know if elissa wall’s 2 younger sisters have been married off? i think if she had been able to leave with the 2 of them, she would have done so and left her mother behind to be the strong priesthood wife.

  682. I dunno proudtexan, plenty of folks live in gated communities.

  683. Rebeckah,

    One of my daughters homeschools her 4 children. Sometimes we have been concerned that our grandchildren do not get the social interaction, stimulation and challenges that public school offers. Yet we have noticed that they also do not have the struggles with peer pressure that plague many children today. They are active in church activities, sports, and the arts, so I think they are well rounded. A bonus is that the 4 of them are close and have learned to help and take responsibility for each other. I respect any parents who take on homeschooling responsibly and with accountability.

  684. When homeschooling is done well, it is better than regular school. But IMHO most people do not do it well.

    One of the good things about a school is that it includes insight from many people. Parents have a way of developing blind spots where their children are concerned and isolation from other input about their child’s education has a tendency to enlarge those blind spots instead of shrinking them. Although a camping trip can be very educational, if mommy decides to just drop the class schedule and go off on a trip during the normal school season she is teaching the kids that the rules the rest of the world obeys do not apply to them. (Hint. Does this sound just a bit like the FLDS?) In my experience, this one lesson makes it very difficult for home schoolers to fit into college and the work world. Many a home schooler can do very well academically and still flunk out of college because they don’t get the concept that if the paper is due on Tuesday, turning it in on Friday may mean you get an F. They can be so unaccustomed to this concept that they get furious with the professors, thus digging themselves in deeper and heading their grade point average straight for the trash bin.

    I know lots of educators, including a tutor who specializes in helping home schoolers with math and science, and most of them LOATHE home schooling and dealing with the products of home schooling. My tutor friend says that the socialization thing is bunk – kids can get socialized at church or in a club or softball team. But learning to show up every day and turn in assignments on time is the one thing many of the special snowflakes can’t or won’t do.

    I know at least a half dozen grown home schoolers who still have trouble with normal, steady employment at 30. I know two PhD’s who were home schooled – they did not get their degrees until they were over 40 and they have never really worked a normal job anywhere. In both cases, if they had not had indulgent spouses with jobs and/or parents with trust funds, they would not have finished their degrees. They are now playing catch up with others in their field who already have tenure or have become widely known for some area of expertise. They are home schooling poster children.

  685. Notice how Al ignores the issues with whether or not the choices are truly free to focus on “gated communities” (which are nothing at all like the UEP since one man can’t dream that you are unworthy and kick you out or reassign your wife and children in them.) Way to troll Al. That lying for the lord get you your family back yet?

  686. My daughter missed a month of school in the 3rd grade because my father and stepmother took her to Holland and England on a vacation. (She was to keep my baby sister company. I believe Julia was 3 at the time.) We made arrangements with the school and my stepmother essentially homeschooled my daughter during that time. I figured the educational advantage to overseas travel was worth the time off of school.

  687. Speaking of failing to focus on the issues….among the “stupid” things Jeffs did? Repeatedly, arrogantly break the law, even while on the FBI most wanted list, and document that law breaking in incredible detail, sometimes with pictures and audio.

    One thing I’ve learned about trolls. They don’t have an ethical compass or they don’t know how to use the darned thing.

  688. Alin: Ruby is an adult woman so there is no such thing as anyone producing her.

    ……………………

    At age 28, Jaycee Dugard was also an adult woman. So in Alin’s world, since she could have walked away on her own accord, she should have been left in that filthy shack with her two children.

    BTW, the two police officers who rescued her were both women.

  689. Rebeckah,

    We’re talking apples and oranges here. That’s very different from saying “According to our calendar, we were supposed to work on writing an essay and then preparing for your SOL’s. But since it’s May and the weather is nice, why don’t we run off to the beach for three days instead? We can always do the essay later and the SOL’s aren’t really all that important.” That’s not a good message and it can be hard to reverse later.

    My step kids took two weeks off from their lessons once, with Mom’s permission, just because their cousin was getting married (in the same town) and they had lots of parties to go to. In her world, she could teach the kids in August if she wanted. Unfortunately, when we got the kids, they were college level in reading and literature, four years behind in science and six years behind in math. They actually bragged that other kids had to get on the school bus and go in every day, but they could take off all of December for Christmas if they wanted. That’s how I came to know a tutor who specializes in home schooled children and preparing them for SOL’s and SAT’s.

    As far as the trip to Europe, a lot has to do with the age of the child and the educational expectations for that age and how the outing is handled. My brother in law and his wife took their kids on a month long trip to South Africa and they worked extensively with their teachers before and after to make the trip educational and to keep up with their assignments when they got back. The kids had to do special projects that required them to think while they were traveling and to create papers and presentations when they got back. I’ve got no problem with that.

    A camping trip could be used as a biology lesson in the field and along with the unplanned learning experiences like weather and unwanted wildlife be very valuable. But way too often, it’s just an excuse to have fun and put off classes for another day and thus reinforces the idea that this family is special and the rules don’t apply.

  690. Al

    “As far as I know anyone unhappy can leave at any time. Leaving with children is a bit harder because both men and women has parental rights as well.”

    Hmmm how about when the father is living a felonious lifestyle? Oh, yeah, I know, Utah and AZ dont do much about the felonies, they pick and choose which laws to prosecute.

    A little different in Texas though, huh?

    OOPSY

  691. ………..Continued on Discussion #18 – ADMIN

  692. For all those who feel that FLDS women are free to leave at anytime :
    I suggest that you read Dr Janet Bennion’s text, “Desert Patriarchy.” She lived among fundamentalist Mormon groups in the US and Mexico at their invitation, and wrote 3 books on topic.
    She does not feel that the women are free to leave at anytime.
    Since she lived among them, I would think she knows best.
    Before you make statements, review the medical and sociological literature on the topic.

  693. At age 28, Jaycee Dugard was also an adult woman. So in Alin’s world, since she could have walked away on her own accord, she should have been left in that filthy shack with her two children.
    ==================================================
    Nope. In my opinion her captor is guilty of kidnapping from the day she was taken until the day she turned 18 and must be punished for that. I have no sympathy for him because he stole Jaycee from her parants. I’ve always been pro family; I thought you all knew that by now.

  694. Evenin’ mac. Buckle your seat belt, you’re in for a ride.

  695. Thanks for every other informative website. The place else may I am getting that type of information written in such an ideal manner? I have a venture that I’m simply now working on, and I have been on the glance out for such information.

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