Open Discussion #16

Continued from Open Discussion #15

Advertisements

~ by FLDS TEXAS on October 29, 2009.

706 Responses to “Open Discussion #16”

  1. cement,

    I find the dream aspects in Warren’s dictations to be one of the most bizarre things I have read in the past few years. And I read some strange stuff at times.

    The dream involving David Steed Allred and a turned over pickup truck with a camper shell was hilarious.

    And also hideous because he takes his “heavenly sessions” as the gospel truth and acts accordingly.

    I wonder how much of his consciousness is based on delusion. Most of it would be my opinion.

    In his delusions he has wreaked havoc on the lives of others that will be felt for generations.

  2. […] […]

  3. carolfromcarolina – here’s the answer to your question that was at the bottom of Open Discussion #15

    Janet Jeffs Neilsen is the daughter of Rulon and Norma Balmforth. Interesting fact is that her sister Donna, who is also married to Wendell, had 2 daughters who married sons of Rulon, thus those 2 girls married their 1/2 uncle.

  4. Proudtexas–YUK!!!

  5. that was my though jobo. seeing as incest is illegal, why hasn’t utah done something about it?

  6. Is that the older Janet? The one who was interviewed on tv with Amy and Sally? Is she Warren’s sister or his father’s sister?

  7. Well there were some charges dropped from Warren’s case in Arizona,, to do with incest, because the way the Arizona law read, it NOT incest till the person is 18yrs old…
    I believe they have changed this law now, but when Warren was charged that was the law in Arizona. STUPID, I know!!

  8. Anonymous 4:48 pm,

    Yes, it is the same Janet from the interview. She is the half-sister of WSJ.

  9. Texastwist, she looks so much like the deceased Rulon Jeffs. But then again so many of them look so much alike.

  10. Thanks proudtexas. I didn’t know if there was a Steed connection there between Janet and Raymond.

  11. So Aunt Janet looks like Rulon? Guess I know what to look for when I go to Eldorado.

  12. As for the Steed connection, Raymond would be 3rd cousin once removed from the daughter of Warren/LeRoy he married. His grandfather Newel and Warren/LeRoy’s grandfather Wilford were brothers.

    Not quite as bad as Donna Jeffs Nielsen’s daughters marrying their uncles, but still related.

  13. Watching, thanks for posting the Flora interview. She did a great job. Hit her talking points, was not emphatic but not strident.

  14. If all else fails, they can relocate ZION to Somalia. Polygamy is legal…with specific laws about it. And, apparently…no age limits!!!!—>> A Somali man who claims to be 112 years old has married for the sixth time, and he hopes to have children with his 17-year-old bride.
    “I didn’t force her, but used my experience to convince her of my love, and then we agreed to marry,” he said.

  15. MC1199: what do you suppose they talk about, that 112-year-old man and his 17-year-old bride. Not the good ol’ days, since they still live in the Stone Age.

  16. Flora looks great.

  17. You had me at “Ugh,” Ron.

    http://fldslegal.blogspot.com/2009/10/ugh-why-do-i-waste-my-breath.html#comment-form

  18. I know the answer, though.

    To counter the bullshit with the disinfectatant of sunshine.

  19. i like that, “disinfectant of sunshine”

  20. Other interesting news today:

    “Bigamy charges against West Texas sect leader Yisrayl Hawkins were dismissed Thursday after the leader of the House of Yahweh pleaded no contest to four cases involving child labor violations.”

    http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1722650.html

  21. Ron, you never waste your breath. This paragraph you quoted from the El Dorado Success deserves to be repeated and repeated ad infinitum:

    “The Eldorado Success has learned that all 17 FLDS members included in the original jury pool were dismissed or excused by defense attorney Mark Stephens. Apparently, if the 17 had remained in the pool they would have had to answer questions under oath during the ‘voir dire’ portion of jury selection.”

  22. I have a question. In her blog Brooke Adams published the name of a juror. Why refer to jurors as #1 or #12 if their names are published? Isn’t this highly irregular?

    I agree with GFNY, Ron. You’re not wasting your breath. Your writings are much appreciated.

  23. Miele, I went back and read Brooke’s blog comment. She says this:

    “She is the wife of [redacted], who was the foreman of the grand jury that indicted Jessop. I confirmed her identify through a photograph I found online, several stories linking her and [redacted] and with one of my contacts in the community.”

    Meaning that Wee Willie pointed it out to her and she went online and found the info on someone’s blog.

    It bothers me too, and I eagerly await Ron in Houston’s opinion. Not that it matters much in a town the size of San Angelo; I’m sure anyone who cares already knows who’s on that jury.

  24. GFNY, it really wouldn’t matter if the knowledge was confined just to Eldorado, but…..with Brooke publishing this poor woman’s name she gives nutters like mudpuppy and mcbryde access to this poor woman.

  25. They don’t usually show any pictures of the jury, if I recall correctly. Right? Aren’t they usually depicted as artist’s representations? What picture then?

    She not only disclosed a current juror, but also a member of the former grand jury.

    I’ve never seen a paper, or a blog associated with a paper disclose a current juror’s name. It’s disturbing.

  26. Above post by me. Sorry.

  27. Do only the “first wives” take the names of their husbands in the polygamists? Who are Willie’s wives?

  28. Texastwist: And also hideous because he takes his “heavenly sessions” as the gospel truth and acts accordingly.

    I wonder how much of his consciousness is based on delusion. Most of it would be my opinion.

    In his delusions he has wreaked havoc on the lives of others that will be felt for generations

    ……………………………………..

    Well, moving them all to Texas isn’t working out so well, seeing as Texas isn’t giving them the free reign they had in Hilldale/Colorado City.
    Does anybody here have any insight on FLDS reaction to Warren’s statement from prison admitting that he is a liar and he is not the Prophet? Or are they just claiming the video is a hoax.

  29. I am very disappointed that Hawkins will not be prosecuted for bigamy / polygamy.

  30. Me too, catwhisperer.

  31. “I find the dream aspects in Warren’s dictations to be one of the most bizarre things I have read in the past few years. And I read some strange stuff at times.”

    Did you know it’s entirely possible to “direct” your dreams? I still do it when I have too many nightmares in a row. I have no doubt that Warren either pretended to be in “heavenly session” or directed his dreams along the lines he wanted. Dreams are a crappy method to direct leadership decisions. Then again, the evidence shows that Warren was a pretty crappy leader. Perhaps the next one will do better.

  32. Better if there’s not a “next one.”

  33. It would be better, but I don’t think our wishes for the FLDS to be free will come to pass anytime soon. 😉

  34. Well, we’re fallin’ down on the job then. We should be protesting and singing freedom songs from the 60s!

  35. Brooke Adams has a propensity for “outing” people on her blog.

    Not long ago, she “outed” one of the victims in Warren’s Arizona trial. That girl’s name had been very tightly kept secret and the court filings had carefully redacted her name to protect her.

    While Brooke refused to name Merrianne (although her name was public knowledge) because she claims that the paper does not disclose the names of alleged sexual assault victims, she had no problem outing this other girl who is also an alleged sexual assault victim who was underage at the time the sexual assault happened.

    That woman has no scruples.

  36. LadySadie, I wouldn’t worry about juror #12 too much, she can take care of herself and if not, she’s got plenty who will take care of her.

  37. 12:45 p.m. Friday, October. 30, 2009
    Defense Challenges Admissibility of DNA Evidence
    Despite the fact that jurors remained home Friday morning, Raymond Jessop’s attorney Brandon T. Hudson argued before Judge Barbara Walther that scientific analysis of DNA evidence is not yet advanced enough to be allowed into evidence. He also challenged the credentials and the credibility of Amy Smutts, one of the state’s DNA experts. Smutts is a forensic analyst at University of North Texas Health Science Center in Fort Worth. She said that DNA evidence showed a probability of 99.999998 percent that Raymond Jessop is the father of the alleged victim’s child.

    Hudson also challeged the paternity test given to his client.

    Judge Walter ruled that the DNA evidence may be introduced and the state’s expert will be allowed to testify.
    This according the El Dorado Success Newspaper

  38. Any straw will do. Alas, they’re all broken straws.

  39. Didn’t Brooke try the same thing with the names of the Grand Jury that indicted the FLDS? I seem to remember her whining about requesting the names and being denied?

  40. Well a little too late but Brooke has revised her blog entry and removed the actual name of juror #12. Gee isn’t that a little like closing the barn door after the horse has already gotten out?

  41. Well, seein’ as it’s not her horse, I reckon it doesn’t bother her.

  42. LadySadie – I screen capped it. Any Texas LEO is welcome to it. Judge Walter is also welcome. As is Randy Mankin.

    You can’t close the barn door after the horse is out, I reckon. But she got out what she wanted, didn’t she? Why not just shoot it in a email to her buddy Willie?

    This Texan has had enough of back handed insults to our State and the people who live here. More so, our Courts, Judges and law enforcement. And the people who tried to clean up their mess, and do right.

    Her stunt may have only included one juror and her husband, this time, who merely obeyed our laws, but it seems to me her repeated reckless actions may have put them and other people in harm’s way.

    Certainly her droppings needlessly disparaged the character of individuals who were just doing their job.

    No one asked these Utard’s to come here anyway. Invade us and then bash us? Fine get the hell out, if you don’t like Texas. Take your creepy pedophiles and weird religion with you. You’re like sticking you finger in a glass of iced tea, then pulling it out. No one will miss you.

    Hiding behind so called ‘press credentials’ and feebly masking a agenda driven actions? Putting people in harms way? Sounds a lot like a ‘hunting lodge’ and opps!…we just raped some kids. No, we retract that, we didn’t do it, and if we did we won’t do it anymore.

    If I were the paper that employed her, I’d be concerned about the loose cannon flying around my deck.

    Besides that, she’s IMHO just plain nuts.

  43. Again, sorry, it’s me

  44. Golly, Miele, don’t hold back. Tell us your heartfelt opinion!

  45. ok well, they started discussing some sort of inbreeding coefficient and i’m sorry, but that’s just gross, kinda like donna jeffs nielsen’s daughters marrying their 1/2 uncles. wonder what their dna tests would look like.

  46. i forgot to say – miele you rock!!!

  47. PT – I’m sure know know how I feel. Usually I lurk and read because, I don’t really have anything to add. But, thank you.

    Don’t get me started on her inane tweets.

  48. i know about it. i was furious at first when i read that she gave the name of juror #12, but then i thought, you know what, if wee willie or any of the others are stoopid enough to mess with her then they deserve whatever they get.

  49. Yep. You’re right. Still it’s again goodness.

  50. In defense of Brooke, how many of us have written something and then upon reflection decided that I should have done that differently?

  51. yeah ron, but the names of grand jurors are supposed to be a secret. the only reason she knows the name of the foreman is he signed the indictments. given the small population of eldorado, i’m willing to bet there are family members of other grand jurors who were called only those names are still secret.

  52. The problem is with these quasi-news-blogs run by reporters attached to newspapers.

    Blogs like Coram Non Judice are independent operations. TBM has simple problems—he needs to watch that he isn’t libelous, doesn’t violate copyright, and doesn’t get caught blogging when he’s supposed to be working. Pretty simple stuff.

    But blogs like Brooke’s carry the gravitas and imprimatur of the newsroom. On the other hand, there are no editors—people whose primary responsibility is to stop reporters from making chumps of themselves.

    I think the story itself is newsworthy. It underscores the problems with a very small juror pool. It points out a possible source of future appeal. And I really have no problem with the sourcing, as long as the facts were verified. But back when I worked as a reporter we wouldn’t have run it with names. And Brooke Adams is older than I am, so she certainly came up in the same system I did, and knows that.

  53. My teen daughter just sent me this quote from http://www.mylifeisaverage.com:

    “Today, the woman’s rugby team I am on was traveling to Texas for a game. Our van stopped at McDonald’s to get something to eat. As 10 girls order their food, a man approaches our male coach. The guy looks at all us girls then at our coach then asks, “Are all of these your daughters?” My coach, without missing a beat, says, “No. They’re my wives.” The look on that man’s face was priceless.”

  54. i love it.

  55. Willie made sure to sit directly behind Brooke in court. I suppose he is very comfortable with her energy.

  56. Willie made sure to sit directly behind Brooke in court. I suppose he is very comfortable with her energy.

    Oh, come on now, Ms. Smoker who has bumper stickers on her car, which is stronger, the positive energy between Willie and Brooke or the negative energy between you and her?

  57. Hey, Brooke is all Willie has got. He isnt gonna like it when she posts stories about the convictions though!

    And of note, Brooke wouldnt post anything on Alamo, (no local hook) but she jumped up and down on her blog when Hawkins copped a plea deal.

    Alamos sentencing is coming up NOV 13, yeah Friday the 13th, pass the word!

  58. Well, Ron, since Brooke posts legal documents that haven’t even been filed with the court yet, and likes to out people serving on juries, I’d have to say the positive energy between she and the FLDS in general is stronger.

    Do I strongly dislike her? Yeah, I do. I dislike anyone who is so devious as to claim to be a an objective journalist and then blatantly and regularly leans to one side of an issue.

    When I was a reporter in Mohave County and realized that I had personally moved from objectivity on the issue of the FLDS to advocacy of their victims, I got out of the business and continued investigating them, without any resources to expose them to the public.

    I’m about to become the proud owner of a radio news network that reaches an average of 1.5 million Texans a day. Do I have an internal struggle with the idea of how to objectively cover this news? Yes, I do.

    Would Brooke? Well, would she?

  59. I’m with you, Boots. I dislike her more and more. Ignoring the fact that Raymond is obviously guilty and instead focusing on some fantasy appeal based on a juror? That’s not even close to unbiased. She’s rooting for the child molester to go free. Sick.

  60. Ron, you’re a kind person. It comes across in all your posts. Which, by the way, are very helpful to us non-lawyers. I appreciate them, and thank you.

    I am sorry for my language, and the fact that I need an editor. I’m even sorry to GFNY for soon to be disparaging her minutes.

    But I’ll have to disagree with you on this being a ‘whoops!’ moment for Ms. Adams.

    She didn’t run into Jo-Jo’s and see a plaque on the wall that said congratulations to [redacted] for making juror #12!

    She actively sought out this information, explaining how she not so subtlety sleuthed it. (Which I don’t believe for a New York minute, BTW.)

    She then posted the person’s name, and the fact that her husband was on the Grand Jury.

    Then she posted his name. Ultimately, in a not so backhanded way she implied that – by the fact that these two jurors were married there was something less than moral being done by the
    State of Texas, the 51st District Court and even the residents of Schliecher County.

    Even though it’s been a constant on some blogs, I didn’t think it was their morals on trial here. I agree with GFNY, her blog is associated with a major newspaper, giving it more gravitas then most blog ramblings.

    My opinion remains her actions were away from goodness.

    Quotheth Ms. Adams:

    “But back where I’m from, it would seem an obvious exclustion”

  61. Don’t forget that she outed that innocent victim whose name had carefully been kept out of the public.

    Why would she do that?

    Was it just to show off that she knows the victims identity?

    Is her ego so big that she would put a witness in danger?

    That disclosure was cruel and uncalled for.

  62. Miele, I think you rock, too.

  63. Thanks guys. I’m just verbalizing what all Texan’s feel deep in their heart about the pricks that roll off Ms. Adams tongues.

  64. Poor Brooke, she’s just never been the same since that house fell on her sister…

  65. LOL, Boots.

    Happy Halloween!

  66. Thank you, darlin’. Thank you to all of you, and a Happy Halloween. I don’t think I can begin to express how much this site and the people who post here have given me the courage to keep plowing along even when I can’t see the end of the rainbow sometimes.

    Thank you FLDS Texas and the other administrators for what you have done here to inform the public with the truth of what is happening.

    Flora, many others and I have great hopes that Mr. Jessop will get more than 13 days in county jail for his abuse of a child in Texas.

  67. Hey Boots, are you still in Eldorado?

  68. Remember, ladies and I say to brother Raymond, in Priesthood marriage establish quickly that no one has the right to correct any other wife. As soon as a wife steps forth to correct a sister wife she has lost the Spirit of God.

    ***********************************

    Found this in the dictation of WSJ counseling Ernie’s wives who were being reassigned to Raymond.

    Guess based on this Babs lost the Spirit of God.

  69. Nope, no place to stay and can I barely afford these trips. I’m traveling on pure grace most of the time. I went to get a tire repaired before the first trip up there, and the guys at Discount Tire refused to repair it after they showed me the big chunks of rubber missing…so I agreed to let them sell me one used tire for $55. I didn’t even have a spare.

    Then they came out and demanded the $5 in change back from the $60 in cash I’d given them, and insisted I take the second one for the $5. They told me it was more important for me to be safe on the road to Eldorado than for them to have two matching used tires in their inventory.

    G-d Bless the Bubbas at Discount Tire in Kerrville. G-d Bless everyone who helps.

  70. Eh, I don’t know. I know that Brooke Adams is vilified by both sides of this issue. My thought is that feelings run so high on this issue that folks lose a sense of objectivity. People assume that someone who is not in lock step with them must be against them.

    I’ve never seen what I’d call outright bias in any of her reports. We’re all human. Each of us has deadlines that we must meet and things we must do. No one meets those deadlines and does their tasks perfectly.

    So, I’m not going to cast stones. I would ask anyone that wants to take a shot why if she’s so in the pocket of one camp, why does that same camp attack her?

  71. For the same reason that Rush Limbaugh and other conservative commentators scream, yell at, and criticize the GOP, because they don’t *always* do and say exactly what they want them to. It doesn’t mean they’re not still solidly in their camp.

    I sure as heck didn’t go out of my way to sit by Brooke but Willie sure did.

    She also hangs out with the camera crew the FLDS has hired to follow them around and film everything….Hmmmm.

  72. I’m sorry, Ron, but I think the 12th juror post and the detail about the DNA is way passed biased. She is obviously looking for ways for Raymond to get off on a technicality.

  73. Brooke Adams has been biased all along. From 2007 forward. Brooke loved to claim even back then, SHE was the only one with the “inside story”. She still doesn’t have a clue who and how FLDS operate. She’s a dense, air headed woman. She has never bothered to look up documents avaible to the publc, where FLDS have committed fraud, by using “Quit Claim” deeds to keep someone in Flds from going to jail or paying the bills they owe. She has NEVER mentioned the millions of dollars owed by FLDS members to IRS for not paying employees withholding taxes, or the Judgements against them. She never mentioned the laundering of money through Flds to hide assets.
    It was ALL at her fingertips Ron, and she chose NOT to look or face the fact, this group is a cult, theives and frauds.
    Part of a reporter’s job is to search everything, post it, whether it agrees personally with what she thinks or not.
    Brooke’s intentions from the start of her reporting on FLDS from the begining was to advance herself to higher position in Newspaper industry. She doesn’t seem to understand, that only happens by seeking out the truth from all sides, NOT just one.
    Ive read the rules of Jury duty in Utah, and No where does it say, if your husband served on the Grand Jury you are excluded from serving on a jury as the man’s wife, regardless what jury it is.
    However, considering where she comes from, “UTAH” you would think she already knew that now wouldn’t you?

  74. Brooke Adams is simply the journalistic equivalent of Janet Bennion, the social anthropologist who studies the FLDS and polygamous cultures around the world.
    Bennion will state in one journal article that polygamous patriarchal systems foster child abuse, incest, domestic violence, and rape. (well documented in the medical literature, BTW) Then in the same article, Bennion will claim that polygamy should be legalized or decriminalized because the government does not need to prosecute the offenders as polygamists, the authorities can simply prosecute the offenders for incest, rape, and other forms of abuse. In short, both Bennion and Adams speak out of both corners of their mouths. Why? Because they both have traded in their integrity in order to have unprecendented ACCESS to the FLDS and other polygamous abusers.

  75. The United Nations as well as America have stood against polygamy around the world because of the degredation effects it has on women and children. It has been proven over and over again, it takes any right to choice or freedom from women. They are under the control of their life, goods and body by a man. They have no self worth, and are treated as chattle at best, and in some countries aren’t treated that good.
    I don’t understand what has happened to this nation? Have we gone so backwards in our ethics and our love of freedom to defend groups in our own country who practice such degragation of Females?
    We have been losing american men and women since 2003 in Middle East countries trying to see to it, that people have freedoms to chose, including women and children. And then we have people like Brooke Adams and many other reporters, attorneys, etc who are fighting to keep the slavery of women and children alive and well in the United States.

  76. Absolutely deputydog.

    Documented Effects of Polygamy on the Family :
    Reduced self esteem in women
    Increased risk of depression for women
    Decreased marital satisfaction of senior wives
    Increased risk of suicide in women
    Increased risk of psychiatric hospitalization for women
    Increased risk of domestic violence in the home : men on women, wife on wife, wife on children of rival wife
    Increased risk of incest (parent on child, child on child)
    Increased risk of rape
    Poor self esteem/self concept of child
    Poor academic performance of child
    Increased risk of substance abuse / alcoholism in children
    Increased risk of incarceration of children for anti social behavior.

  77. Thanks DD and CW,

    That’s exactly right. Polygamy is not a “valid alternative lifestyle” choice. It is a human rights abuse of women. In virtually every case where this “lifestyle” is practiced a patriarchal, misogynistic religion is what is used to force or coerce women into it.

    Do you think for one moment that people are born polygamists in sexual orientation? Or do you think if religion were not used, either to promise rewards in the afterlife, or the threat of eternal damnation that any woman would choose it?

    When was the last time the SCOTUS made a decision that allowed religion to trump natural freedom? Never! If it had, I could start the First Church of Marijuana Smoking, or The First Church of Meth Lovers, or The First Church of Slavery, ad nauseam.

    Abuse is not a religion.

  78. I sometimes think “news” is now more about how FAST you can get the story out…to scoop your competitor…than it is about getting together a well rounded article with all the facts. Mindless tweeeeeets of every breath or what was for lunch, to me, is not news…or even interesting.

  79. Oh, and DD, I regulary go to the Center Point Cemetery to visit Specialist James Kiehl, from Comfort, TX who was one of the first soldiers to die in Iraq, trying to bring the kind of freedoms to them that we take for granted every day.

    I remind myself, I owe that boy something.

  80. Ron in Houston, I had a problem trying to log into your blog so I’ll post this here. I love your latest post:

    http://fldslegal.blogspot.com/2009/10/are-you-sure-you-want-to-present-slut.html

  81. Yes Ron,
    Thanks for the detailed and concise explanation on DNA and the slut factor.

    I learned a lot from your posting.

  82. If they present the “slut defense” for Raymond’s trial, my only hope is that Janet herself gets called to the stand and that she turns on the FLDS priesthood for attempting to destroy her reputation. Was it not the priesthood who forced her to be “a slut” by reassigning her?

  83. uh huh

  84. Ron, that was a brilliant and lucid post on the DNA assumptions.

    A pair of siblings expects to share 1/2 of their genome IBD (identical-by-descent), a pair of half-siblings expects to share a quarter, and a pair of first cousins expects to share an eighth. Distant cousins don’t really share that much genome IBD.

  85. if i was janet, i wouldn’t be too happy with the defense team if they went with the slut defense.

  86. “3 DAYS OF GRANDSTANDING INSTEAD OF JUST ASKING IF THE BABY IS HIS.”

    Bile’s latest headline. Is he really too stupid to know that the prosecution has no opening to ask this? And that if they did he’d either plead the fifth or claim he didn’t understand the question? I have to wonder how that man manages to keep breathing. Stupidity THIS deep HAS to have physiological repercussions. 😆

  87. yeah, cupcake was surprised that janet was married to ernie first and 2 of them think they had enough time to get to mexico or utah before conceiving a child.

  88. FLDS women will not ever testify. They always refuse. Then, they will, however, show up in force for sentencing to say, ‘We don’t feel like a victims, so please go easy on him’…yada yada yada.

    I have a whole interview from a Nevada talk show that Buster and I were on. It is stuck in Real Player and I have no DVD burner. What was most interesting, however, is that the show’s engineer had been the jury foreman in the David Bateman case. He said what shocked them most was the arrogance of the defence not even bothering to deny the crime had happened, but saying the state could not prove he had committed it on the Arizona side of the street, calling into question their jurisdiction to prosecute him for it.

    The guy said, in the end, they decided that it was reasonable to assume Mr. Bateman was having sex with her in his home [on the Arizona side] and not running across the street to Utah to do it.

    Same story different day.

  89. Boots

    That’s a great story. Apparently, the PPSG realize that trying to say the kid isn’t his doesn’t look good for the morals of the FLDS so they’re falling back on the location of the crime as their talking point.

  90. ” Is he really too stupid to know that the prosecution has no opening to ask this? ”

    Rebeckah, I don’t think it’s a matter of intelligence. He wants to show that the state is wrong, the way a preteen bully wants to find something about his victim to pick at. It doesn’t have to make sense, it just has to have a hook. Why would he picture Hanna as a spoiled baby because he was showing birth certificates? Makes no sense at all.

  91. Ron, here’s a run down: http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy593.html

    This is not new.

    The one that burned me up was Kelly Fischer, who the jury convicted for taking the daughter of one of the concubines who had been re-assigned to him as his next concubine. She came to live in his home when she was 12, and he took her as his concubine when she was 16.

    It’s always nice to see a mother and daughter share like that ::GAG::

    After the jury convicted him, the judge sentenced him to 45 days in county jail for the crime, citing all the community members who stepped forward at sentencing to vouch for what “a wonderful man” he was.

    Another ::”GAG::

    My question? When her mother was reassigned, did they tell her that her DNA was changed to match her new “father”? And I guess it magically changed back when he started having sex with her?

    She testified at sentencing that she “wasn’t a victim”.

  92. Yeah, 45 days makes me gag. How does that judge stay in office?

  93. LMAO, that would be Judge Conn, Ron. The same one with the balls to say he might have to rule on whether the Texas raid was constitutional, forced the prosecution to drop incest charges, and is presiding over Arizona’s trial against Warren Jeffs.

    Hmmm, how do you think that’s going to work out, now?

    Welcome to the concubine state of Arizona.

  94. That’s pretty sickening. I didn’t know Judge Conn was the same judge. His notes said that putting the man in jail ‘wouldn’t do any good’. I think it would do a world of good for the 12 year olds Fisher hadn’t gotten to yet.

  95. A samll portion of the huge front page editorial I wrote following that ruling:

    [turns out she was 13, not 12, but like it really matters]

    To the Editor:

    Concerned citizens of our community have every right to feel outraged at the sentence passed down recently by Mohave County Superior Court Judge Steve Conn to Kelly Fischer of Colorado City. I was, to say the least, deeply distressed by the tone of Dave Hawkin’s editorial in last week’s edition of The Standard. Mr. Hawkins would seemingly almost have us believe that the sentence was fair for no better reason than that the citizens of this polygamist community have gotten away with their continual crimes against children for so long we might as well leave them alone now. He continually referred to Jenny Steed as the “wife” of Kelly Fischer, when in fact she is not now, nor has she ever been any such thing. In this country a man is allowed to have only one wife. Mr. Hawkins called it “a multiple-wife lifestyle” , giving the impression polygamy is as harmless a lifestyle choice as becoming a vegetarian. I would challenge Mr. Hawkins to present us with an example of one single country where polygamy is legally and regularly practiced that gives women equal rights with its men. There is none. As a practice it is inherently misogynistic, justifying and maintaining the severest subordination of women by men.

    Mr. Fischer already has one wife. The other women that reside in his home and bear his children may be his consorts, his girlfriends or sexual partners, but they are not “wives”. Indeed, if we want to play the game of calling Jenny Steed his “wife”, then we must by necessity acknowledge the first and most notorious relationship she had with him. Jenny Steed came to live in Mr. Fischer’s household with her mother when she was 13 years old and her mother became another of his “wives”. So if you call the extra women “wives”, you must logically call Jenny Steed, first and foremost, Kelly Fischer’s step daughter. It is very difficult to imagine a more vulnerable position than that of a child to a parent. Parents are supposed to represent the ultimate in love, sacrifice and protection for a child. It is a disgrace and an outrage to every man who has ever lovingly and honorably taken on the awesome responsibility of being a step father to say that this man had the qualities ascribed to him by Mr. Hawkins of “courage” and “class”. Exactly how courageous and “classy” is it to participate in sexual relations with both a woman and her 16 year old daughter under any circumstance, much less when she has looked up to you as a child, trusted and relied on you , calling you her “father”. Cloaking the entire thing in “religion” only makes it more disgusting and outrageous. As a matter of fact, perhaps we are overlooking another culprit in this crime against a child, the mother. The job of every parent is to protect their children, no matter what. I believe Jenny Steed’s mother should be prosecuted for her part in this as well, for her absolute collusion in this atrocity by allowing her innocent child to remain in a home with a man who was obviously grooming her for his future sexual service…

  96. Hey guys for all you nerds out there….

    Here’s a page by a forensic mathematician who specializes in DNA.

    He shows that starting with a 50% prior probability and a 99.999% probability of paternity and reducing the prior probability to 0.02% (in other words, really, really low) only lowers the probability of paternity to 99.5%.

  97. Thanks, Ron. But since I don’t know your full name, I can’t respect your math and research.

    Heh. Just kidding.

  98. Oh, and on the requirement for these convicted men to register as sex offenders: http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Sex_Offender/

    See if you can find either Mr. Fischer or Mr. Bateman on the Arizona sex offender registry.

    Flora and I joke that these guys obviously get to register on the super secret polygamist sex offender registry that none of us are allowed to ever see…

    Funny how they get away with this, isn’t it?

  99. Boots,
    Who do you file a complaint with when someone’s name doesn’t appear on the list ?

  100. I don’t know, CW. It is the AZ Department of Public Safety’s site, but wouldn’t the courts of Judge Chavez and Judge Conn, who made the rulings be responsible for enforcing them?

    Like they care. Remember, they aren’t going to treat these women like victims. These “prosecutions” were just dog and pony shows anyway.

    After all, when you have molested 5 of your daughters and are facing up to 200 years in prison and the Mohave County Attorney walks in and hands you a plea deal for 13 days in county jail for it, you have to wonder how valued females in Mohave County, AZ really are, don’t you?

    Oh wait, I don’t have to wonder. That’s 2.5 days in jail for each child molested. Boy, I bet that sure put the fear of the law into Colorado City.

  101. Then I will write a complaint to the Arizona Dept of Public Safety.
    The worst thing they can do is ignore me.

  102. Cat

    If the guy is on probation or parole their probation or parole officer will make sure they get registered real quick.

  103. CW
    According to some quick research….the community supervision department is responsible for registry in the state of Texas. Like Ron said…they are the same ones that deal with probation/parole.

    In Texas it is a violation of an offender’s probation/parole to fail to register as an offender and keep that registration current and accurate. From knowledge that is WAY closer to home than I care to discuss, I know that many of these officers in the community supervision department are way overloaded with cases and have a hard time keeping up with the details on each of their cases. Many times it is left up to the victims or their families to keep tabs on the perpetrators and keep law enforcement informed if compliance is not happening.

    Maybe that’s something we should do. … Each get a name of an individual convicted of a crime requiring registry with the state database and begin making phone calls and writing letters asking the community supervision departments why their names are not appearing on these lists.

  104. Here is some background info just in case they don’t remember David Bateman and his crime/sentence:

    David Romaine Bateman, was convicted on October 26, 2006 with Class 6 felonies of sexual conduct with a minor and conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor.

    Bateman, was convicted of having sexual relations with a 17-year-old girl in late 2001 or early 2002. The girl then gave birth to his child.

    Bateman was sentenced in Kingman, AZ on Monday, December 18, 2006

    Chavez, in ruling that Bateman is college-educated, a law abiding family man, sentenced him to nine months in state prison for both charges. Bateman must also register as a sex offender. Chavez could have sentenced Bateman to up to two years in prison for each charge.

  105. Thinking of Garrido or what his name is.Perfect example of lax law enforcement for sex offenders.

  106. Here is the background info on Kelly Fischer:

    An Arizona judge has sentenced a polygamist to 45 days in county jail for having sex with a teenager he took as his third wife.

    Kelly Fischer, 39, was sentenced Wednesday, August 2, 2006 by Mohave County Superior Court Judge Steven Conn to 45 days in jail, three years of probation and required to register as a sex offender.

    The county prosecutor, Matt Smith, had asked Judge Steven Conn to sentence Fischer, 39, to some prison time. Fischer faced a minimum sentence of probation and a maximum of four years in prison.

    As part of the sentence, Fischer must complete three years probation and register as a sex offender. He must report to jail by November 1, 2006

  107. I guess I should have included David Bateman’s age. He was 49 in October 2006 when he went to trial.

  108. Texas Tuff Lady –
    I am ready to take on the challenge.
    Give us the names, and let’s start reporting them.
    Let the games begin.

  109. Sounds like a plan Cat….let me see what I can do.

  110. Child abuse conference starting today in SLC. Carolyn Jessop and Brent Jeffs will be speaking.

    I wonder if Willie will show up?

    http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/links_numbers/story/Senator-Bennett-opens-child-abuse-conference/Ygh9VGkkn0CXtn2jaEU9CQ.cspx

  111. I wish I could go to it. I have a lot of respect and admiration for Carolyn. It would be so nice to actually see her in person and maybe even speak to her.

  112. Documentary Channel will be premiering back to back two sections on polygamy
    http://www.worldscreen.com/articles/display/23153
    Damned to Heaven with former members and then
    Banished – about the lost boys
    Nov. 20 8 pm

  113. Documented Effects of Polygamy on the Family :
    Reduced self esteem in women
    Increased risk of depression for women
    Decreased marital satisfaction of senior wives
    Increased risk of suicide in women
    Increased risk of psychiatric hospitalization for women
    Increased risk of domestic violence in the home : men on women, wife on wife, wife on children of rival wife
    Increased risk of incest (parent on child, child on child)
    Increased risk of rape
    Poor self esteem/self concept of child
    Poor academic performance of child
    Increased risk of substance abuse / alcoholism in children
    =============================================
    Thanks could you show me where you found this.

  114. Part of a reporter’s job is to search everything, post it, whether it agrees personally with what she thinks or not.
    =======================================
    You have seen 60 minutes and 20/20 haven’t you.

  115. Cat….
    Don’t give up on me. I’m still working on gathering all the information we’re going to need. Unfortunately today I had to do something stupid like actually work for money!

  116. That happens to me too sometimes TuffTXLady

  117. From today’s Standard Times:
    The report pertained to comparison testing of DNA samples that included Jessop’s brother or half brother, Merril Leroy Jessop. The analysis showed Merril Leroy Jessop wasn’t the biological father of the child in question.
    ————————————–
    Since LeRoy is the son of Babs and Raymond is the son of Ruth, they are 1/2 brothers, but they are really probably more closely related than most 1/2 siblings since their mothers are sisters.

  118. Prosecutor Goodwin shot down the defense attorneys contention that the FLDS are so inbreed that the DNA could match hundreds of members, thus shutting down Raymond and the defense teams “slut” defense.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/nov/02/expert-testifies-99-percent-certainty-that-child/

    Hudson has been trying to fend off DNA evidence instrumental in the prosecution’s case before 51st Judicial District Judge Barbara Walther.

    Goodwin brought up an additional report from the lab where Smuts works, the Center for Human Identification at the University of Health Science Center in Fort Worth.

    The report pertained to comparison testing of DNA samples that included Jessop’s brother or half brother, Merril Leroy Jessop. The analysis showed Merril Leroy Jessop wasn’t the biological father of the child in question.

    The report was an answer to Hudson’s repeated contention that one of the defendant’s brothers could have been the child’s father, something that could slip by because of the lab’s methods of determining paternity.

    Hudson appeared surprised at seeing the report.

    But Goodwin said it had been provided to the defense.

    *****

    Oops!

  119. CatWhisperer, just so you understand the enormity of the task ahead of anyone seeking justice in a post-Mormon theocracy. The problem is rooted in a deep abiding belief that ‘God’s justice’* supercedes the laws of the United States:

    “There never has been any real and impartial trial by jury in Utah. No twelve men could be found and sworn in who would dare to render an unbiassed verdict. This has been repeatedly seen in trials which have taken place. So true is it, that hundreds of Gentiles who are conscious of the justice of their several causes, would never think of bringing them into court during the existing state of affairs. They know it would be useless. Prejudice runs high; in fact, so high that outsiders are perfectly incapable of realizing it. Still, murders have been fewer of late, for President Young knows that the eye of Uncle Sam is fixed with no small degree of sternness upon the City of the Saints; and, more important still, Deseret has not yet been admitted into the Union as a State!”

    Ann-Eliza Young, “Wife No. 19 or The Story Of A Life In Bondage Being A Complete Expose Of Mormonism” 1876

    ——————————————————————————–

    *The most amazing thing to me is that any apostates leave Short Creek with even a shred of faith remaining. If I thought God was the author of such a capricious, venial, illogical, and abusive system, I’d want nothing to do with Him.

  120. It boggles my mind too, Greetings. I know religious belief requires faith rather than evidence, but I’ve never understood how ANY faith could justify things like the Mormon Reformation, Inquistions, Witch burnings and the like. It’s rather frightening when you think about it.

  121. Okay…the more I research the more I am completely baffled…which I’m sure is the case for most of us here.

    I’ve searched the Arizona sex offenders web site in several different ways.
    1.) by name
    2.) by zip code
    3.) by randomly picking an address in Colorado City

    The nearest registered sex offender in Arizona is in Fredonia. Why is that not making any sense to me?

  122. Alinusara,
    I suggest that you read the articles on the effect of polygamy on women and the family by Al Krenawi, Graham, Oscan, Elbdour, G.B. Slap, and Chaleby, among others. They are available in full text format at any medical school or graduate school of social work or psychology.

  123. Ms. Tuff,
    Try a search on Dan Barlow, Jr.
    He’s the old mayor’s son who got the 13 days for molesting 5 of his daughters.

    He’s listed in the online database.

  124. As you know, we all carry two copies of each allele, one from Mumsy, one from Pops. Generally we say that siblings have a 75% chance of a particular allele being present in both of them, but it is more accurately to say there is a 25% chance full siblings share zero genomes identical-by-design (IBD), a 50% chance they share one and a 25% chance they share both.

    But for shorthand, simpletons like me can say that genomes identical-by-design are likely to appear according to this formula: (.5 raised to X) times four, with X being the number of total transmissions from the original set of parents, going both ways as on a “degree of consanguinity” chart.

    So essentially, the difference in genome IBD between full brothers and half-brothers with sibling mothers is just raising the exponent by one.

    Which sounds like it might be a big deal, on the surface. But the important thing isn’t the genomes IBD but all the opportunities for non-identical alleles to slip in there from new blood in the family tree. For full brothers, each allele tested still has a 75% chance of including a non-IBD genome. Multiply that over the 13 loci tested and the chances of error are infinitesimally small.

    At least I THINK that’s how it works. Further clarification is always welcomed.

  125. Tuff Tx Lady and Greetings –
    I know it is a difficult to get all that information together, and I certainly have not given up on you,Tx. Tuff Lady, nor will I ever give up on the concept of justice.
    Greetings –
    I know of some wonderful apostates from Short Creek who believe in, love, and serve God. Mary and Brian Mackert come to mind, as well as Kathy Jo Nicholson. God Bless them!

  126. Has anyone every viewed the on line tv program, Polygamy : What Love Is This ? It is a Christian ministry run by former FLDS members who seek to help others to escape.
    See it here : http://www.whatloveisthis.tv/aboutshow.htm

  127. Cat,
    Actually, the TV show you mentioned is done by Doris Hansen who was not from the FLDS group, but from the Kingston group (even scarier bunch of polygamists than the FLDS – IMHO).

    It is a great TV program and Doris has many interesting guests on her show. She has great wit and humor.

    Doris’ organization is a ministry so her emphasis is to try to “save their soul” first.

  128. Cat, I do know about Doris Hanson’s ministry. Her website is one of the rare situations where I wish it hadn’t been redesigned. The old one looked hokey but there was a treasure trove of resources on it that I can’t find now. But I admire her work and think it’s very important.

  129. Guys – Wee Willie admits they have a birthing center out at the ranch but says they only had it after 2005.

    Hmmm, what are the odds that the center has a license?

  130. slim to none.

  131. Ron,
    They don’t have appropriate personnel to run a birthing center.
    Can you send me the link again with the birthing center regulations for the state of Texas?
    Thanks

  132. Cat

    Health and Safety Code Chapter 244 – Birthing Centers

  133. Gee, with a $1,000 a day administrative penalty, that birthing center could be pretty costly.

  134. Complaints should be filed with the Professional Licensing and Certification Unit of the Texas Department of State Health Services

    If anyone wants to fill these out, here are the forms.

  135. Cat, here is a news story which you can use to document your complaint:

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/6699800.html

  136. Hugh is sucking up to Brooke so he can keep posting on her site. No one posts on his site and he’s banned or moderated pretty much everywhere else, so I guess a little tail kissing is in order!

    I’m confused about her report that the jury did not see the report comparing Leroy to Raymond as a potential father because Hudson questioned it’s relevance. That’s not jivving with the report from another paper.

  137. Note: The forms can be used to complain of either an unlicensed birthing center or an unlicensed midwife.

  138. The passage from Brooke Adams’ news story that interested me was this:

    “Hudson asked Smuts if the DNA of any other men had been compared with that of the alleged victim and her child, specifically that of a biological relative to Jessop such as a brother.

    “Smuts said she tested DNA of Merril Leroy Jessop, whom prosecutors told her was a brother. But the state dropped introduction of that test after Hudson objected to its relevance…”

    Ron, did Hudson step in it here? It seems like he asked the question, and then objected to the answer. Or did the state drop introduction in an earlier hearing? Either way, I can’t figure out why the defense asked the question only to object to the answer (which they knew in advance).

  139. Betty – my guess is that the report is not before the jury. In order to get Merrill Leroy’s report in, they would first have to prove that he is the half brother of Raymond. They could do that by someone with personal knowledge or through documentary evidence. I don’t think they have that yet.

  140. Yes, GFNY, that’s the way it reads to me; it’s relevant if he wants to discredit the DNA evidence but not if it upholds the state’s position.

  141. Greetings

    The objectionable part of the answer is “the prosecutor told me” – anything after that is hearsay.

    In order to get the report in, Smuts would have to have either personal knowledge that Merrill Leroy is the brother or there would need to be some proof already in the trial that he was the brother.

    They may try to get it in later, but they’d have to dismiss Smuts, put on another witness, and then recall Smuts.

  142. Hudson violated a fundamental rule of cross examination by asking a question where you don’t already know the answer.

    Regardless of whether the report comes in or not, the damage is done since the witness said, yes, she tested someone else.

  143. I don’t know how he could not have known the answer, considering the defense had the same report as the prosecution and had already tried once to limit the DNA testimony. I think he probably overreached and it backfired.

    But either way, as you say, the damage is done. The jury knows that the lab tested Raymond’s half brother’s DNA and that it supports the prosecution’s case.

    What the jury thinks of the scuffling is anyone’s guess. The more I read about Judge Walther, the more I think she’s a sensible and wily judge.

    And thanks for your answer. I know nothing about how trials work, but it reminds me of chess—more interesting if you understand the machinations.

  144. Hudson violated a fundamental rule of cross examination by asking a question where you don’t already know the answer.

    Regardless of whether the report comes in or not, the damage is done since the witness said, yes, she tested someone else.
    ====================================================
    Actually it was a half-brother so I would see how Hudson would object to it’s relevance.

  145. Al, blindness on your part does not mean blindness by anyone else. I hope you don’t drive anywhere because with all the things you “don’t see” it’s pretty scaring to think of you behind the wheel of a big metal machine.

  146. Alin, you’d see anything that gets him acquitted, so that’s hardly a surprise.

    If they are talking about in breeding, his half brother is close enough, especially since the two mothers are sisters. And the defense even mentioned cousins, so….

  147. Alin, you’d see anything that gets him acquitted, so that’s hardly a surprise.

    If they are talking about in breeding, his half brother is close enough, especially since the two mothers are sisters. And the defense even mentioned cousins, so….

    Plus, the whole line of questioning was trying to cast doubt on the calculation by saying they hadn’t factored in the “inbreeding coefficient.”

    It would have been highly effective to have Smuts show how “see, this marker, and this marker, and this marker” don’t match.

  148. Alin, Ron’s point is that it is an alleged half-brother, so the evidence shouldn’t be admitted unless the relationship is proven. But the defense asked the question, which is the courtroom equivalent to an own-goal.

    The fact that they’re half-brothers from sibling mothers isn’t really that significant in terms of genetic analysis. The real issue is what happens in the alleles expected to be NOT genomes IBD, which is the vast majority of them. And, genetically speaking, you can assume that Leroy and Raymond are actually something like ¾ brothers, which makes the difference even smaller.

    But whatever the percentage of genomes IBD, it is unimportant when compared to the non-identical genes these two men got from other sources. There is almost no chance that all fifteen loci tested are the same—it’s in the trillions. The only time that’s not true is in the case of identical twins, and nobody is saying these two are identical twins.

    They used more loci than law enforcement uses for criminal identification, and no rational person today argues that DNA evidence is not valid.

  149. For anyone interested in the whole “they can’t prove where we had sex” defense, you may want to read this post over at my blog.

    Be sure to read the comments since Blues added some very good information.

  150. I would be the first to admit that DNA evidence, as far as I know and until science proves different, is valid. It appears, with supporting evidence further narrowing the field of potential contributors of DNA, that Raymond is the father of that little girl.

    Heh! I’ll be the last to argue against science.

  151. Warren’s Utah Supreme Court Appeal can be heard live online today starting at 1 PM Mountain time.

    http://www.utcourts.gov/courts/sup/streams/

  152. Ooooh, thanks for the link!

    If I’m not hurting too badly after my dentist appointment I’ll tune in. I’m interested in this. 😀

  153. The’ve allotted the whole afternoon. I wonder how long they think it will take?

  154. I dunno but a lot of jaws will drop if they decide that performing a wedding ceremony in and of itself doesn’t make you an accessory to rape.

  155. ….but if you tell the girl to go home, submit, ‘get close’ and give herself body and soul to the groom, you MIGHT just have something.

    Seriously, though, alin, an appeal can only address technicalities of the way the trial was run, it can’t go back and judge on the evidence. How many times has that been explained to you already? Why do you continue to ignore common sense?

  156. i don’t hear anything??? I clcked on it

  157. “I dunno but a lot of jaws will drop if they decide that performing a wedding ceremony in and of itself doesn’t make you an accessory to rape.

    Alinusara10 said this on November 3, 2009 at 12:17 PM

    =========================

    But – it wasnt a real marriage ceremony, and she didnt consent, and she went to him begging to be released, and he forced her to stay and just keep getting raped.

    Yeah, Warren deserves his life sentences – and more.

    I am glad for the appeal – he will lose, and it will just make more negative news for him.

    Its like waving a big red flag

    “LOOK AT THE BIG FLDS JERK RIGHT HERE!”

  158. From the UT courts site Anonymous @11:42am provided today they dismissed weewillie and rod parkers complaint against Judge Lindberg:

    http://www.utcourts.gov/opinions/supopin/Snow5110309.pdf

    Per Curiam:
    ¶1 This matter was filed as a petition under rule 8A of
    the Rules of Appellate Procedure. We dismiss the petition
    without prejudice and take this opportunity to clarify the scope
    and purpose of rule 8A.

    (further down)

    For the same reason, rule 8A should not be employed as a
    means for harassing or unjustifiably burdening respondents when
    ordinary procedural mechanisms would be adequate. This includes
    the circumstance where the “emergency” has arisen from
    petitioners’ own unjustified delay in seeking relief. Appellate
    courts also retain the discretion to waive the abbreviated
    response deadline when it is apparent on the face of the petition
    that emergency relief is unnecessary or unjustified.

    ***

    Supreme Court of Utah – Tells Rod Parker and the FLDS to stop harassing people, LOL!

  159. Is there somewhere where we can see the photo of the birthing center?

  160. WOW!!!

    Thanks LadySadie!

    EWWWW that left a red mark on Parker, Willie and Warren! Right on their asses.

    Stamped them but good with TATTOOS on their foreheads:

    *LOSERS*

  161. Ron, I can’t answer you on your blog because you don’t allow anonymous posting and blogspot is too close to my actual life. I’m absentminded and would inevitably mingle my identities if I allow myself to play.

    The part of the statute that seems relevant to me is this:

    “(4) the conduct inside this state constitutes an attempt, solicitation, or conspiracy to commit, or establishes criminal responsibility for the commission of, an offense in another jurisdiction that is also an offense under the laws of this state.”

    Raymond and his child bride lived in a purported state of marriage in Texas. It was not a legal marriage because polygamy and bigamy are banned. Thus Raymond is not protected from prosecution by virtue of being married to his victim. He did, however, maintaining the social fiction of marriage. Marriage is by definition an “attempt, solicitation or conspiracy” to have sexual relations with one’s spouse and the evidence (the child) shows that it succeeded. Whether the sex actually occurred in Texas or not is immaterial; it is in Texas that they played house.

    And by opening the question of jurisdiction, the defense leaves Raymond liable to Federal charges of transporting a minor over state lines for the purpose of sex.

  162. SCOUTAH did the RIGHT THING!

  163. Deputy, you have to have Windows Media Player for the live stream.

    There are several hearing scheduled for this AM, but Warren’s doesn’t start until 1 PM Mountain time this PM.

  164. Warren learns he lost one appeal just a few hours before starting another one.

    Geez he must feel like a mouse in a trap….

    *SNAP!!*

  165. I wonder how much actual feeling he has left at this point.

  166. Did you know that the clock on this blog site did NOT fall back of its own accord early Sunday morning?

  167. GFNY and Ron. I can’t post there either, but wanted to let Ron know how much his work is appreciated.

    To simplify the complicated is an art form. Louisiana shot/Texas dead. Got it.

  168. Alin, since you’re willing to accept that the DNA shows that Raymond is the father, doesn’t yesterday’s ‘het up’ suggest that the defense’s game plan is just to throw copious quantities of mud in the hope that some of it sticks?

    Perfectly legitimate strategy but it doesn’t occupy the moral or intellectual high ground.

  169. I second that, Miele. Ron’s specific without being obscure, and he sticks to the point. That is for sure an art form.

  170. Yep. As to the ‘mud throwing’ defense, Blues called that a couple month’s ago. Re: caca/wall if I remember correctly.

    LadySadie, thanks to you, too. Not sure in reading that I’d ever figured out what it meant. But telling Rod Parker to go pound sand is always a good thing.

  171. I too want to thank Ron

  172. Me to Ive been reading Ron’s site often. I know nuttin really about the law or legal terms,, but I know when the justice system is being scammed,, and thats what FLDS do!!

  173. Ron, I love the title to your new post.

    FLDS Cross Examination – My Wife is a Slut and My Brothers are Scumbags

    http://fldslegal.blogspot.com/2009/11/flds-crossexamination-my-wife-is-slut.html

    Too funny, is a must read!

  174. “My wife is a slut, my brothers are scumbags, and how did I get stuck with Brandon Hudson?”

  175. More fundamentalist family values to bear in mind as Raymond’s trial slogs along:

    “I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow.” (Heber C. Kimball, First Counselor in Brigham Young’s LDS from 1847 to 1868)

    “Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake.” (Heber C. Kimball)

  176. Guys – thanks for your input on my posts. I’ve enabled anonymous comments on the blog. If you could please still sign your comment so that people can reply to you by your handle.

  177. OMG , Greetings,,, the GREAT Heber C Kimball said that???
    Of course he did, and Joseph Smith was a liar and a cheat to.

  178. DD, the difference of course was that he had to pay good money for the cow. The wife he just took, and left her to shift as she could.

  179. DD, the difference of course was that he had to pay good money for the cow. The wife he just took, and left her to shift as she could.

    Well a cow give me milk, my wife just nags me all the time. So maybe that explains the finances.

    Alright ladies, now remember, it was a joke.

    And yes honey, the dishes are in the dishwasher.

  180. Yeah cows do give milk, and end up being butchered for folks to eat,, Never heard of a *bull* being cut up to eat, farmers consider their bulls prizes, and the cows, well they are used for breeding and slaughtering when they can no longer produce calves.

  181. Come on, the males are like the lost boys; you only keep the best and butcher the rest young.

  182. I think cement is right. Ratio of bulls to beef cattle??? Pretty low.

  183. Yeah, and of course, if you get a bull who will NOT behave and stay home, off he goes to auction and the abattoir.

  184. Texasrattle

    Well, crap, by that standard, I’d already be hamburger.

  185. You said it Ron, we didn’t,, lol 🙂

  186. In FLDS speak the abbatoir is excommunication and the heifers and calves are moved to another bull’s pasture.

    Lather, rinse, repeat as many times as the nocturnal emissions direct.

    And sometimes the 14 and 15 year old female offspring of a bad bull were given to some of the favored old bulls.

    Better living through better animal husbandry.

  187. DEER DO IT!!!!

  188. And often!!!

    Saw ten of them tonight on a 60 mile drive.

  189. And often!!!

    Saw ten of them tonight on a 60 mile drive.

    ………………….

    Where were they driving to?

    Sorry! Couldn’t resist.

  190. They were driving to that nice “corporate hunting retreat” near Eldorado, Texas. 🙂

  191. Reading this morning’s San Angelo News (all good, from a prosecutorial point of view) here:

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/nov/03/attorneys-spar-over-evidence-in-jessop-trial/

    It occurs to me just how bad Raymond Jessop looks for a 38-year-old man. Wee Willie, too. Might be something in the idea that polygamy is just as hard on men as it is on women. (But that’s how sin works, destroying those who embrace it.)

  192. Greetings,
    Yes, there is medical literature which supports the contention that polygamy is hard on men. There is one article in which polygamist Arab men answered an anonymous survey. They responded that they felt that polygamy was difficult due to the family conflicts which arose from a perception that the male favored one wife, or one set of children, over another.
    There is another article however which reports that the life span of polygynous males is slightly longer than the lifespan of monogamous males in Asia. The reasons why this may be so are not clear, nor has this research finding been replicated in other cultures or ethnic groups.

  193. Cat, to take a wild guess: In Islam there is a requirement that men be able to support their multiple wives. That means that polygamous men in those cultures are likely to be wealthier, which correlates to longevity.

  194. GFNY,
    How hard it must be for men and women who idolize their religious leader to find themselves in such a horrible situation. If they were “good soldiers” they just obeyed their “prophet” and family leaders – no questions asked – and that was somehow proof of their faithfuless, which earned them special rewards. In a day where there is so much rebellion and lack of respect for authority, it is unimaginable that so many could follow such an ideology. There has to be a heavy judgement assigned to a leader and his puppets who have led “the faithful” into such – as you called it – sin. Wouldnt want to be in his shoes.

  195. While I agree that Warren Jeffs has a heavy burden of guilt, I do not absolve the members, male or female, on the basis of obedience. Just as the German soldiers are not innocent who merely followed orders to usher people into the gas chamber, so mothers of 14 year old girls who hold their hands and say their wedding vows for them as they cray are not innocent of their rape.

  196. Betty, in moral terms I agree with you. But in terms of keeping their eye on the main chance, I think WSJ’s prosecutors did the only practical thing.

    Elissa Wall’s ideas about what she might do if she wins her suit against the UEP Trust tell me she still has deeply conflicted feelings about her former community. I doubt she could have ever testified against her mother.

  197. OK, I have decided that the List needed updating (yes the list of excuses why FLDS men should be allowed to rape little girls) to add some of the new excuses coming out with Raymond’s trial, so here it is, if you can think of any more let me know.

    THE LIST
    1. But it’s legal in France at 13 (Whoops , those darn French changed the legal age of consent to 15. Those Frenchies they must have thought the FLDS would move to France and just to persecute those holy FLDS people changed the age all of a sudden in…..1945!)
    2. How do you know they really had sex just because there’s a baby?
    3. DNA isn’t conclusive.
    4. But other people get teenagers pregnant and they don’t go to jail! It’s not fair!
    5. America’s high schools corrupt children and give them condoms!
    6. But they consented and so did their parents, so it can’t be wrong.
    7. They changed the law just to get them (even though the girl is 12 and would be jail bait regardless).
    8. Jurisdiction! Sure she’s got a baby, but you don’t know where it was actually conceived. Just because they got married and live together at the ranch doesn’t mean anything. They could have driven to Reno, had sex, and driven back. And that makes it moral and all as well as legal.
    9. It can’t be illegal cause Holy Father tells uncle warren what to say.
    10. The children are more likely to be assaulted by CPS than by their husbands!
    11. The Virgin Mary was only 13.
    12. It’s natural. Teenagers are better at childbirth than older women anyway.
    13. Our ancestors did it. Why, 150 years ago, this was normal.
    14. They have all those hormones stirring up in them and it’s better to get them married off early to an older man who can support them than to let them and their illegitimate kids live in poverty and shame.
    15. It’s Flora’s fault.
    16. It’s Carolyn’s fault.
    17. It’s Dan Fischer’s fault.
    18. It’s Flora’s and Carolyn’s fault!
    19. A grand jury can indict a ham sandwich!
    20. It’s genocide!
    21. The CPS is in cahoots with the Southern Baptists!
    22. You’re all Nazis!
    23. First Amendment, Freedom of Religion, Press, Assembly!
    24. Fourth Amendment, Unreasonable Search and Seizure, Warrants!
    25. Fifth Amendment, Indictments, Due Process, Self-Incrimination!
    26. Sixth Amendment, Fair and Speedy Trial!
    27. Eighth Amendment, Excessive Bail!
    28. The Judge is in cahoots with CPS (She should be disbarred, run out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, how dare she)
    29. The whole system is unfair because it is run by a bunch of lesbian menopausal hysterical women who can’t be fair to the FLDS.
    30. It’s all Malonis’ fault!
    31. We are unaware of any underage marriages here.
    32. Although spiritual marriages (may) occur, they are not necessarily consummated until the girls are of age.
    33. A girl’s greatest calling is to be a sister wife and Mother (sometimes all of the above at the same time, depending on who she marries, grandfather, uncle, brother, [step]dad).
    34. Three raids on three polygamists groups in 6 months is a conspiracy to take down Mitt Romney.
    35. “I don’t understand why she was taken away from me.”
    36. Polygamy is needed because there are two percent more women than men, and without a husband, those women would live in poverty.
    37. Deer do it.
    38. Its all a plot because CPS needed blonde-haired, blue-eyed baby’s to sell.
    39. She could have gotten impregnated with a turkey baster.
    40. Warren can change DNA by reassigning families.
    41. Somewhere on the internet there is a list of statistics that have absolutely nothing to do with anything, so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls and everyone should just shut up about it.
    42. BAPTIST BUSES, BAPTIST BUSES, BAPTIST BUSES.
    43. 30 years ago some baby died in Ireland so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls.
    44. I’ve been her step-father for eight years, she owes me.
    45. I have married her two older sisters and given her nephew and nieces, it’s all in the family now.
    46. It’s not my fault, her mother was reassigned to me then she began to ovulate.
    47. She’s my 24th wife and I am 62 years old her wifely duties will be easier if compared to a mother wife.
    48. This is Gentile persecution because monogamy leaves their gentlemen sex obsessed and jealous.
    49. Her mother liked me so much as a reassigned husband, she insisted that I marry her daughter, I was just trying to be a good provider.
    50. “The dictations may not be correct. A girl’s diary I violated had her lying in it”
    51. Wisan is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
    52. Walther is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
    53. Denise Lindberg is biased against FLDS AND incompetent.
    54. New from Raymond Jessop’s trial – FLDS girls are sluts and will have sex with anyone.
    55. Also new from Raymond Jessop’s trial – My FLDS brothers are scumbags and are having sex with my wives.
    56. The governor should have called Warren Jeffs personally and explained any law of the state that “might” affect the FLDS.
    57. And last but not least, it’s holy to us because it’s part of our religion.

  198. GFNY,
    An alternative hypothesis –
    with regard to the longevity of Malaysian polygynous men, it may also be true that they require their wives to work while they stay at home and relax, hence their improved life span.
    (In most cultures where polygyny is practiced, there is a higher instance of poverty in polygynous unions)

    and Ladie Sadie, you are a riot!

  199. Lady Sadie, thanks again for keeping the list and posting the updates. Just too funny.

  200. “Yeah cows do give milk, and end up being butchered for folks to eat,, Never heard of a *bull* being cut up to eat, farmers consider their bulls prizes, and the cows, well they are used for breeding and slaughtering when they can no longer produce calves.”

    Our bulls went to become hamburger and balony as soon as they couldn’t breed anymore. They had a longer life than steers but they still got butchered in the end. (Of course by then they didn’t have any “choice” cuts left on them.) 😉

  201. Thanks Sadie–I was hoping you added the part about the governor should have call the profffftt!!! That’s just too much of a prize to leave out…!!!!!!!!!!!

  202. Cat, is the difference in lifespan statistically significant? If not, it might also just be a sampling artifact.

    LadySadie, thank you for the updated list. “The List” is my all-time favorite document, so I hope you made copies of this most excellent rewrite. You can find the carbon paper in the KS “Treasure Chest” (which we insiders know is really a bank vault with 18” steel doors in which we keep ‘important papers’). Look on the left side, just under the gun cases and above the bundles of unmarked bills.

    The rest of you, tossing in the bull just muddles the heifer analogy. Kimball’s point was that he was the master of Animal Farm and the women were unimportant beasts. The first step to victimizing people is always to dehumanize them.

  203. Now this is highly significant and may throw the case out:

    “Judge Barbara Walther observed that that would also show that the alleged victim could not legally have married Raymond Jessop since she was married to someone else — a comment that seemed to make defense attorney Mark Stevens freeze up.”

    According to DFPS legal definitions the “victim” would then be an Emancipated Minor, according the DFPS definitions :

    Emancipated Minor – A person under age 18 who has the power and capacity of an adult. This includes . . . a minor who, with or without parental consent, has been married.

  204. I agree with Jobo.

    Direct quote from our own beloved Deb Lee “The governor should have telephoned or written a letter to the FLDS prophet, explaining the new law so there would be no dispute about it later.”

    Priceless.

  205. Alin, won’t fly. Neither man was free to marry under the laws of Texas, so the girl was never married, just sexually abused previously by the current abuser’s brother.

  206. Exactly GRNY, grrr this girls parents should be horse whipped!

  207. Al, you have the most amazing capacity for wishful thinking. To be emancipated, a minor would have to be *legally* married, which was not the case.

  208. Judge Wathers recognized her previous marriage in court so argue it with her not me.

  209. really alin,, where ??? Judge Walther’s never did any such thing.

  210. Put your evidence where your mouth is Alin,, show us where Judge Walthers acknowledge anything of the sort?

  211. Oh, come on DD, bile mudpuppy said it, sore toes said it, child mcbryde said it SO IT MUST BE TRUE, roflmao!

  212. “Judge Barbara Walther observed that that would also show that the alleged victim could not legally have married Raymond Jessop since she was married to someone else — a comment that seemed to make defense attorney Mark Stevens freeze up.”

    I wish I had court transcripts. Until then this will have to do.

  213. GFNY,
    The difference in lifespan was statistically significant.
    Please note that this study was only conducted in one cultural
    group, and has not been replicated anywhere. It is the only positive study on the effect of polygamy – and the positive
    effect is only on men, not women. Sample size > 150 as I recall.

  214. Actually, Alin, the DEFENSE is offering the concession that there was no legal marriage and the PROSECUTION is saying they don’t want it, because they want to be able to prove jurisdiction by demonstrating that the couple were ‘playing house’ in Texas.

    From San Angelo paper last night:

    “But Stevens offered a concession to the prosecution.

    “Stevens told Walther that he would agree Jessop and the woman prosecutors say is the victim were not legally married in November 2004.

    “This is important because Nichols must prove to jurors Jessop was not legally married to her to win a conviction.

    “A person younger than 17 can’t legally consent to sex unless it’s with a legal husband.
    “But Nichols wasn’t interested in any such agreement.

    “He told the judge that he feared the defense attorneys would manage to argue around it.”

    “‘I would not argue nor could I argue after having stipulated there was no lawful marriage between the two,’ Stevens said, sounding offended.”

  215. “Judge Barbara Walther observed that that would also show that the alleged victim could not legally have married Raymond Jessop since she was married to someone else — a comment that seemed to make defense attorney Mark Stevens freeze up.”

    I wish I had court transcripts. Until then this will have to do.

    Alinusara10 said this on November 4, 2009 at 11:14 AM
    *******************************************
    She wasn’t married “legally” to anyone Alin,, but “Celestially” which isn’t legal at all. So she actually had TWO men who sexually assaulted her before the age of 17.. I can see why the defense cringed!! They are screwed missy!!

  216. I see you got it off brookes blog alin… I also noted Brooke didn’t bring up the fact that Lt. Lannie Hilboldt, a computer forensic examiner was last witness on the stand, and will testify first thing this morning about all the evidence found on the computers seized at the ranch,, weird huh, how she has so much bias?

  217. I can see why the defense cringed!! They are screwed missy!!

    Yep, I’d call that pretty cringe worthy evidence to go before a jury.

  218. Judge Barbara Walther observed that that would also show that the alleged victim could not legally have married Raymond Jessop since she was married to someone else — a comment that seemed to make defense attorney Mark Stevens freeze up.

    Everything the Judge said is not some sort of legal ruling. She made no finding of a valid first marriage. It was just a comment and has no legal effect.

  219. OK Guys a new game – I’ll call it PPSG MEME of the DAY!!!

    Here is is for Wednesday November 4, 2009…

    The comment from Walther’s means that the victim must have been lawfully married to the brother. Therefore, under the family code she emancipated. Therefore under the family code she’s no longer a “child,” she then becomes an adult. So, it can be sexual assault of a child because under the family code she’s an adult.

    Now let me take just a little time for my brain to stop hurting from ingesting too much stupid at one time…..

    HEY PPSG

    1. Walther’s “comment” has no legal effect
    2. The first marriage wasn’t valid.
    3. Even if you could prove #1 or #2 wrong, it still doesn’t matter!! Being a “child” under the penal code is wholly different than being a “child” under the family code.

    It’s not an issue and will never, ever make it into the appellate brief.

  220. This meme originated with Sore Toes and is being repeated by Pharisee.

    Each is saying how this will be reversible error.

    I guess they think Raymond’s attorneys are stupid and missed their brilliant point of law.

    Now, does anyone have some tylenol? Stupid just hurts my brain.

  221. Forget the tylenol, this calls for fentanyl.

  222. Try morphine. Tylenol can’t cut that kind of stupid.

    I like this “stupid meme of the day” idea because it’s an endlessly self-renewing resource.

  223. Great minds, Sadie.

  224. Valium, Versed and Scopolamine all cause retrograde anmensia.

    Take it now, and you’ll forget you ever read it.

  225. anmensia. Amnesia. Whoops! Had a Brooke moment, took too much.

  226. This is a fentanyl, not a morphine moment.
    Fentanyl is 100 times more potent than morphine.

  227. I was wondering about the pssible drug use of some of these posters.

  228. I’m just hopelessly antiquarian, myself. No fentanyl for me. I prefer my morphine in the front parlor and laudanum in the kiddies’ milk when they grow fractious.

  229. I wonder about the pssible law abuse of some posters.

    GFNY – No one has turned a phrase like you can since Tennessee Williams died. Another art form.

  230. Perhaps extended life expectancy for men in polygamy is caused by having a young wife as a caretaker in your old age, rather than having two elderly people trying to care for each other. Also there is evidence that a general involvement in life extends life expectancy. Maybe have 10 year old kids when you are 80 keeps you active.

  231. Well sorry GFNY, we are only serving fentanyl in the clubhouse today. The cabana boy and I well take your share, LOL.

  232. Anon, that is the nicest compliment I’ve ever received. I love writing nearly as much as I love my main line of work. I’m tickled that you appreciate it.

  233. Personally Alin, I would like to know what you take? Because whatever it is, it has made you delusional!

  234. Al, takes whatever is in the Kool-Aid.

  235. Alin,
    Our knowledge of pharmacology results from scientific education, not substance abuse.
    Alin no doubt has ingested some sort of hallucinogen, since he appears to be delusional and confabulatory quite frequently.

  236. It’s interesting that nobody but Brooke Adams has reported that Judge Walther commented about the victim’s prior “marriage”, and that only in her blog, not in a news story.

  237. Why Warren never had the sense to shut up:

    “Musser testified to her experience with records that the FLDS keeps for
    religious reasons. The FLDS church believes that whatever is recorded on earth,
    such as marriages and dictates from the prophet, is considered recorded in the
    Book of Remembrance on earth which is thus written in the Book of Life in
    heaven. Musser said Jeffs had a room in his house where the records were kept to
    keep them ‘secret and sacred,’ until there could be a temple archives room.”

    From
    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/nov/04/former-flds-teacher-takes-stand-in-jessop-trial/

  238. Good read GFNY–thanks!!!!!!!!!!!

  239. Maybe Alin SHOULD be taking meds and is not.

  240. Id say Rebecca Musser isn’t a bit afraid of Mark Stevens,, which is a good thing, since all that attorney has done since this started is try to intimidate witnesses. The man is a weasel

  241. He hounded her about what resources she had read since leaving flds, and she said a few,, and he wanted more,, so she said,, you want a list?? You have pen and paper? LOL
    good for Rebecca Musser!!

  242. Id say Rebecca Musser isn’t a bit afraid of Mark Stevens,, which is a good thing, since all that attorney has done since this started is try to intimidate witnesses. The man is a weasel

    DD – the man is just doing his job and doing it in the most effective manner he knows. This is a really tough case to try to defend. He’s only doing what any other defense lawyer would do.

  243. Gosh, Ron, she didn’t pound her gavel before she said it? Then it must not have been a ruling from the bench.

  244. Ron, Ive sat on many juries and Ive watched lawyers on both sides ask questions that were to the point, but Mark Stevens was deliberatly trying to say Rebecca Musser didn’t know what the hell she was talking about. She was a teacher in the school Alta Academy, and grew UP in Flds. Trying to dispute what she knows was stupid on his part, and being down right arrogant with her was uncalled for.

  245. I wish this trial was on live TV somewhere..It would be fascinating to watch…

  246. The FLDS church believes that whatever is recorded on earth,
    such as marriages and DICTATES FROM THE PROPHET, is considered recorded in the
    Book of Remembrance on earth which is thus written in the Book of Life in
    heaven.

    ………………………..

    Dang – you mean for all eternity?

    Chapter XXXIV “This is Not a Test”
    Wherein Warren Outs Himself as a Fraud while in Prison for Accessory to Rape of a Child

  247. Naw Anon E Mouse,, Warren didn’t have that part written down in the dictations, soooooo, he decided he could take what he said back,,, LOL

  248. He figures GOD didn’t hear that part,,, duh! LOL

  249. LadySadie said this on November 3, 2009 at 12:38 PM

    Lady Sadie, I copied your time stamp above because I think you made “news scoop” history by finding this brand new UT Supreme Court opinion on Wille, et al v Judge Lindberg.

    You did a great job finding this online decision that was hot off the “decision” press of the UTSC.

    You missed your calling.

  250. wooooo hooooo

    GO YANKEES!

    World Series Winners 2009!!!!!!!!!!

  251. mc1199,
    I agree with you that it would be SO nice if there was live TV coverage on this trial.

    Why isn’t CourtTV covering it?

    Texas has allowed CourtTV to film cases in the past. And CourtTV had outside coverage of Warren’s Utah trial (Utah doesn’t allow TV coverage inside for the live trial).

    So we know CourtTV has had an interest in this subject.

    What’s up now?

  252. The NY Yankees – The Best Team money can buy !!!!

  253. LadySadie and DeputyDog are both brilliant internet ferrets.

  254. Forbes covered the trial here:

    http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/11/04/general-us-polygamist-trial_7086782.ht
    ml

    (Thanks, k. Dee, for the tip.)

    I am taken by the notion that WSJ believes his notebook jottings and dictations will go directly into the Book of Life. They will, of course, but not because he’s the prophet and what he binds on earth is bound in heaven. Rather, all our actions for good or bad are known and considered by God. By focusing on his small authority to bind and loose he forgot the bigger truth, that he himself will be judged as a shepherd.

    Warren Jeffs treated God as a short-order cook who blindly cooks whatever is written on the slips of paper clipped above his grill. Here’s Warren, writing up an order for a young girl to be served up for time and for eternity to Ernest. But the customer didn’t pay, so he sent her back to the kitchen, for God to reheat and reserve her to Raymond.

    But God will not be mocked, either here or in the Final Court.

  255. The judge told jurors to pack a bag last night,, that they should be hearing closing arguments by midday?
    The defense I guess is not calling any witnesses? And it’s a shame we only got bits and pieces of testimony in newspapers.

  256. Hard to believe it’s done that fast.

  257. GFNY: Hard to believe it’s done that fast.

    ………………………….

    How much was there to say, really. An adult male had sex with a minor child, and that child gave birth to the proof.

  258. I assume that one can get a full transcript of the court proceedings at some point?

  259. On his blog, TexasBluesman is quoting lines from Warren’s Utah Supreme Court hearing on Tuesday.

    Does he have a copy of the transcript and would he share it so it can be posted here?

  260. GFNY: Warren Jeffs treated God as a short-order cook who blindly cooks whatever is written on the slips of paper clipped above his grill. Here’s Warren, writing up an order for a young girl to be served up for time and for eternity to Ernest. But the customer didn’t pay, so he sent her back to the kitchen, for God to reheat and reserve her to Raymond.

    …………………………..

    Beautifully said.

    The FLDS and their apologists are trying to convince themselves and the rest of the world that a man’s place in Heaven is guaranteed by how many women he can stick his penis into.

    Saint Paul is rolling in his grave.

  261. And Augustine, too.

  262. Listen live to the Utah Safety Net Committee meeting now

    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/utah-attorney-general

  263. The new revised ‘safety net’? lol

  264. I read brookes post today, can anyone tell me why she is so pissy when it came to rebecca musser testifying?
    She was basically making fun of Rebecca Musser. What IS IT with people in Utah! Especially reporters! If she is so bored, and so biased, why doesn’t she get her ass on a flight back to Utah?

  265. Then she allows freakoids like pharisee and MA po dunk to post replies, the two idioits of the world

  266. If she is so bored, and so biased, why doesn’t she get her ass on a flight back to Utah?

    DD – I second that emotion. But, for me, west of Tex-line in Anthony, Clayton, NM, north of the Canandian river, anywhere in OK, east of Vidor, Matamoros and points west would be OK.

  267. Thanks to Sadie for finding this bit of dictation for me. Read it and weep for every woman forced into reassignment:

    “Then separately, I brought in Susanna Barlow, the former first wife of David Jeffs, and I felt a great concern about her. I asked her again if she received the Lord’s message. She hesitated a long time. She asked if there was any hope for David Jeffs. I said, ‘I love my brother, but I love God most and I will tell you the truth, what the Lord as shown me, that David cannot exalt his ladies, but if he will continue in his repentance, he can earn a degree of salvation.’ Every step was a long hesitation or her. She finally said, almost in a whisper, ‘I want to do what the Lord wants me to do.’ I said to her, ‘I have told you what the Lord wants you to do.’ I told her I would give her an official release before her sealing. I had her stand and taking her hand in the patriarchal grip was a resistance. I told her, ‘There is no force in this.’ That is when said, ‘I just want to do what the Lord wants me to do.’ I gave her a release, using these words in these release ceremonies, calling the sister by name, ‘Sister so and so, in the authority of the holy Melchizedek Priesthood and
    by the keys and powers thereof, I release you from your sealing for time and eternity with — the name of the former Elder — in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, amen.’ I don’t use the word ‘Brother’ in that because often it is a man who is unworthy and not a member any more.

    “I then brought Jim Allred in and she would hardly look up. She would hardly take his hand. As the ceremony ended he was smiling and she was looking down, and I said, ‘You may kiss the bride,’ and she would hardly do it. She would hardly handshake for congratulations and she would hardly take his hand to go out to the car. So she showed a great spirit of resistance, yet she went through with it. I pray the Lord to bless her, lest she fail in that covenant. She has been a gentile for a lot of years. Now she needs to learn to submit to Priesthood and the ways of God.”

    https://texasflds.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/jessop-211.pdf

  268. She was pissy towards Becky Musser because she is just a nasty person in general.

  269. GFNY – Very sad. Written by a person with a sadistic bent.

    Who could look at a crying 14 year old, knowing what you were doing to her and have no empathy.

    In the dictations I’ve read certain wives were undergoing ‘corrections.’ With this personality type, given unlimited power, I cringe to think what that may be.

    From Sheriff Doran, all the way up to the AG. Rangers, DPS, Leos, Texas attorneys who care, you’ve all earned stars in your crowns.

    Do what you can to shut it down.

  270. The woman in the dictations was around 50yrs old. She loved David Jeffs as did the other “wives” he had. But WARREN in all his OMNIPRESENCE (HAHAHHA) banished him from FLDS and once again controlled FLDS commodity, the women, wives and under age girls.
    And MEN allowed it happen! And Mothers allowed it happen.
    Why weren’t any xmen of FLDS UP on that stand against Raymond Jessop??? Where were they?? That’s what pisses me off!!! The ones who allowed Warren to just do as he chose, and men WENT when he said GO!! NOT ONE BRAVE X FLDS MALE was willing to get UP on that stand and testify about the damn priesthood!!

  271. It’s down to closing arguments in the Raymond Jessop trial. The defense did not call any witnesses. Evidently they’re going with the “you can’t prove it happened in Texas” argument all the way. The jury will have the case sometime this afternoon.

  272. Prosecution Rests its case

    http://www.myeldorado.net/

    ***

    12:40 p.m. Thursday
    November 5, 2009
    Prosecution rests its case
    Texas Ranger Nick Hanna was the only witness on the stand this morning as prosecutors wrapped up their case against Raymond Jessop. Documents identified as personal records of Jessop, his legal wife, and his alleged victim were introduced.

    A prophet’s dictation from Warren Jeffs was also entered into evidence in which Jeffs acknowledges that the alleged victim was having difficulty with child birth and had been in labor at the YFZ Ranch for 3 days.

    Records of Jessop’s “Ordinance of Work” as a temple worker for July 25, 2004,”Ordinance of the Love of God” on December 17, 2004 and ” Temple Worker” on December 28, 2005 were also entered. Marriage licenses for Jessop’s legal marriage and an FLDS marriage certificate issued by Warren Jeffs were also entered.

    Defense argued that prosecution cannot prove sexual assault occurred on YFZ Ranch or in Texas..

    Both legal teams will get 45 minutes for closing statements when court resumes after a lunch break.
    ***

  273. It will shortly be in the hands of God and the jury. My prayers are with them this afternoon.

    May God guide them in his wisdom.
    May truth prevail.
    May justice be served.
    May the guilty be punished.
    May the injured be renewed.

    I ask these things in Jesus’ name, Amen.

  274. GFNY – I join you. Amen.

  275. Amen.

  276. Amen and amen.

  277. Amen!!

  278. amen

  279. AMEN.

    Just thought I’d pass this along.

    WE tv:
    Tuesday November 10, 2009
    9:00 pm Secret Lives of Women (MOUNTAIN)
    Polygamy Cult: Women and children recount their experiences with a controversial polygamist cult.

    Tuesday November 24, 2009
    11:00 pm Secret Lives of Women (MOUNTAIN)
    War on Polygamy

    Also, loved the list LadySadie. I think we should send a copy to Willie so he can have some quotes for his next Oprah appearance.

  280. Great idea, Flora. Be sure to tell him it’s a special gift from the Kindred Spirits.

  281. Just wanted to share something I have been thinking about.

    While in Texas with Boots, she made a comment and the more I think about it the more it makes sense.

    “It’s like 1984.”

    Ever read that book?

    I have realized that is why it is so hard to leave. EVERYTHING the FLDS teach is the exact OPPOSITE of the rest of the world.

    To US: TO FLDS:

    up down
    forward backward
    wrong right
    illegal legal
    rape consent
    wife slut
    victim whore
    scumbag brother
    mother-in-law wife
    Dad husband
    pervert prophet
    pig willie
    Hell Heaven

    IT’S 1984!!!!!!

    Soooo…. Thank GOD for Mormon HELL! Otherwise I would be trapped in Mormon Heaven for eternity.

    Kinda funny how I had to ‘go the Hell’ to find God.

  282. She was basically making fun of Rebecca Musser.
    ==============================================
    Really? I just read this:

    “She spoke in a voice so soft that even with a microphone she was just barely audible and appeared the epitome of politeness and charm, responding with lots of “Yes, sir” and “No, sir” answers.”

    My prayers also go out. Not necessarily for the same thing as a lot of y’all.

  283. It’s time for everyone’s daily favorite!!

    PPSG Meme of the Day!!!

    The Meme of the Day is that since Judge Walther told the jury yesterday that they may hear closing arguments today that she is forbidding the defense from calling any witnesses.

    Hmmm, maybe tomorrow it will be that she’s using her official State of Texas mind control device on Stevens?

  284. The Meme of the Day is that since Judge Walther told the jury yesterday that they may hear closing arguments today that she is forbidding the defense from calling any witnesses.
    =======================================================
    Umm Ron? 23 posters on that thread you are refering to and not a single person said that.

  285. Defense Attorney Mark Stevens focused on that when he asked Walther to give the jury an “instructed verdict” that the state hadn’t proved jurisdiction. Walther denied that motion.

    So i guess Texas did prove jurisdiction

  286. …guess she figures that the State can’t better it’s position anymore than it’s already done, and why waste time allowing the Defence to present useless rebuttal.
    =======================================================
    Ahh I see Bill puts this in the intro. He does get a bit carried away. He would have had a much more effective thread if his was more in the line with Kenneth Johnson from Durham in wonderland; potentially the masterpiece of all blogs. Congrats on catching him on it.

  287. Alin twit, this is what im talking about on Brookey’s article.

    The jury missed most of the fun when it came to Rebecca Musser’s testimony today during Raymond Jessop’s trial.
    ********************
    Statements LIKE that Alin are cetainly not ethical for a reporter. Im sure Brooke had FUN listening to it, but it was definitly a pun against Rebecca Musser, shame on her.. and shame on you you Twit!

  288. Defense Attorney Mark Stevens focused on that when he asked Walther to give the jury an “instructed verdict” that the state hadn’t proved jurisdiction. Walther denied that motion.

    So i guess Texas did prove jurisdiction
    ========================================================
    Not really. She’s letting the jury decide on their own whether or not the state proved jurisdiction. One of her decisions that even I agree is pretty noncontroversial.

  289. JESUS alin, get a friggin brain!!!

  290. I’m really disappointed. I’d hoped the meme of the day would be that somehow admitting Warren’s dictations broke the magic connection between his pocket notebook and the Book of Life and therefore was a violation of Raymond’s First Amendment rights.

  291. I think the summations will address the jurisdiction aspect for Prosecutor Erik Nichols. I believe the pregnancy and birth of the child on the YFZ Ranch fits within the ‘territorial jurisdiction’ definition but Nichols will state his compounding evidence as he chooses. During Janet’s pregnancy term the Temple was under construction. The residents on the YFZ Ranch were termed “Templebuilders”, Raymond was at the ranch to work on the active construction job. It seems to me that to suggest that he was anywhere other than at the Temple site is implausible and highly unlikely. Warren in his dictations was pressing Bishop Merril Jessop weekly and then even daily to complete the work which Warren considered to be behind schedule. The construction crews were working long hours and some put in 16 hour days. On November, 2004 until the temple was dedicated, job one at the YFZ Ranch was the construction and completion of the Temple & Annex.

  292. The prosecution started with Hanna as its first witness more than a week ago and ended with his testimony today. Judge Barbara Walther called a lunch break at 1 p.m. and said closing arguments, limited to 15 minutes for each side,

  293. DD1, I believe each side gets 45 minutes for closing arguments.

  294. TexasConnie

    The Judge decides time for closing argument. It is being reported that each side got 15 minutes.

    SLT is also reporting that the jury now has the case.

  295. I was basing the 45 minutes on what the Eldorado Success reported — but that was before lunch, so perhaps the judge made a different decision afterward.

  296. Or that one of the reporters misheard – I guess it doesn’t matter since it’s over and the jury has the case.

  297. So, how long Ron do you think it will take to find a verdict?

  298. “She was basically making fun of Rebecca Musser. What IS IT with people in Utah! Especially reporters! If she is so bored, and so biased, why doesn’t she get her ass on a flight back to Utah?”

    I didn’t get any making fun out of that. Could someone clue me in to what I missed?

  299. I didn’t read it as making fun of Rebecca, either. I did think there was some bias in spending so much time on the interviewing that was intended to show that Rebecca was not an expert witness. Maybe that’s what DD means.

  300. OK, Ron get the tin foil ready! From bile’s blog, cupcakes latest, she infers that the shootings at Fort Hood, TX has something to do with the case going to deliberations, ROFLMAO!

    *****
    My husband is in the army. He says that something really crazy has happened in Texas this afternoon. Apparently, there have been shootings at Fort Hood. My husband says that one report says there are seven dead. One report says that there are 12 wounded; another says that there are 20 wounded. The entire post is locked down. They don’t know if the shooters are civilians or soldiers.

    Strangely, the shootings seemed to occur about the time deliberations began.

    1. Cupcake on November 5th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

  301. *hums Twilight Zone theme*

  302. Predicting juries is tough – but my guess is that if they don’t have a verdict tonight, it will be first thing tomorrow.

  303. Nods nods. I think the jurors deserve a night in a nice hotel room. Tomorrow’s soon enough. They don’t want to look like they already had their minds made up.

  304. Cupcake appears to be psychotic.

  305. Thanks Ron 🙂

  306. “I did think there was some bias in spending so much time on the interviewing that was intended to show that Rebecca was not an expert witness.”

    That makes me feel better. I thought I was missing something again. Actually (this was probably just me projecting) I kind of thought there was some understated admiration for they way Rebecca stood up to the defense attorney’s questions. But then, I thought her responses to him were funny and her spunk was admirable so I might just be reading my own feelings into it.

  307. Well, I don’t know how long Walther is going to give them tonight, but it probably takes 45 minutes to an hour to sit down, elect a foreman, and even begin to sort through the charge.

    Then they start looking at stuff and deliberating. My best guess is tomorrow a.m., but Walther may let them go longer tonight.

  308. “Cupcake appears to be psychotic.”

    I wonder if the sky is blue in her world. And MaryKay’s. 😉

  309. cupcake and alin would make a good pair, two airheads in the same room, maybe they would drive each other crazy instead of us

  310. From Randy Mankin, publisher of the Eldorado Success
    4:10 p.m. Thursday, November 5, 2009
    Jessop case goes to the jury
    A panel of 12 Schleicher County, Texas jurors is now weighing the fate of Raymond Merril Jessop. The State and the Defense have both rested their cases and final arguments ended minutes ago.

    The Success will post a verdict if and when it is handed down.

  311. The one of the shooters at Ft Hood was a Major in US Army, his name Malik Nasan, he had converted Islam and was was going to be deployed to Iraq and was upset about that, he is from Virginia

  312. The other two are also soldiers that were going to be deployed but they have not released their names yet.

  313. The major was shot and killed

  314. Is Cupcake psychotic? An interesting question. She certainly has an interesting relationship with reality.

    Although I think it’s dangerous to extrapolate from something she says, it seems like she’s implying the FLDS were responsible for the Ft. Hood shootings.

  315. What? isn’t that rather simpleton thinking greetings,, but then we are talking about cupcake, lol

  316. Does anyone know who Ernest Jessop’s legal wife was and how many wives he had besides Janet?

  317. Ernest legal wife was marie johnson musser

  318. Thanks, deppiddy.

  319. The major that shot all those soldiers was a Mental Health Physican in the Army!

  320. yw Rattle, he married her in 1994

  321. DD, Marie Johnson Musser was Raymond’s legal wife not Ernest’s. Ernest is the brother that Janet was first assigned to at 14, they moved to YFZ, then Ernest was kicked and Raymond got 3 of his wives out of the deal.

  322. No wonder nobody can keep up with who’s married to whom.

  323. I find it very strange that Brooke has not twitted or posted to her blog all day. Is she still in Eldorado?

  324. sorry ,
    A Utah marriage certificate showed Jessop was already legally wedded, Hanna testified. Jessop married Mary Musser in August 1994. (raymond jessop)

  325. Greetings,
    Most of Cupcakes postings indicate that she has a faulty perception of reality.

  326. There’s a major disconnect near the data entry function, maybe a clogged filter.

  327. GUILTY!

    http://www.myeldorado.net/

    6:30 p.m. Thursday
    November 5, 2009
    GUILTY
    A Schleicher County jury found Raymond Merril Jessop guilty moments ago on one county of Sexual Assault of a Child. Sentencing is tentavely set for Monday.

    Jessop was led from the courtroom in handcuffs and is currently being booked into the Schleicher County Jail.

  328. 6:30 p.m. Thursday
    November 5, 2009
    GUILTY
    A Schleicher County jury found Raymond Merril Jessop guilty moments ago on one county of Sexual Assault of a Child. Sentencing is tentavely set for Monday.

    Jessop was led from the courtroom in handcuffs and is currently being booked into the Schleicher County Jail.

  329. Geez, guilty already, I’m not too surprised, but it was pretty quick.

  330. lol ladysadie 🙂

    jinx

  331. it went to the jury at 4:10

  332. Justice has been served up to this point!! Monday is the sentencing phase,, we will see

  333. 20 years.

  334. From Susan Combs, Texas Secretary of State:

    Longer prison sentences for sex offenders
    Between 1991 and 1997, the number of sex offenders in Texas prisons increased by 130 percent. The average sentence length for sex offenders increased from 13.9 to 15.1 years, mainly because of increased sentence lengths for sex crimes against children. The average sentence length for sexual assault of a child increased from 16.5 to 18.6 years.

  335. Fantastic !!! I am overjoyed !!!!!!!!!

  336. From the same report

    Under present parole practices, most offenders convicted of sexual assault of a child or indecency with a child by contact will serve 80 percent of their sentences before being granted parole.

  337. OK, for all you Texans this seems appropriate to express my feelings. From one of my favorite songs:

    God blessed Texas with His own hand
    Brought down angels from the promised land
    Gave ’em a place where they could dance
    If you wanna see heaven brother here’s your chance

  338. Another VERY important point to remember on sentencing:

    99% of folks convicted of sexual assault of a minor face up to 20 years.

    Raymond is a first degree felony punishable by up to 99 years.

    Given the crap they’re going to show in the punishment phase I could easily see a 40-50 year sentence.

  339. Ron, thanks for pointing that out. I thought it was a maximum sentence of 20 years. I like the sound of 40-50 years!

  340. Thank you God !
    Thanks to the victims for their bravery, and
    The attorneys for their skill,
    and thanks to the people of Texas, who don’t tolerate
    any nonsense !!!

  341. Ron, I thought they changed his charge to be covered under the old law because the assault happened before the law was changed.

  342. Sadie

    Not sure – the indictment posted here says 1st degree. But here’s the run down

    1st degree 5 to 99 or life

    2nd degree 2 to 20

  343. Sadie

    I googled it and you are correct it was modified to second degree

    So, he’ll get the max = 20 years.

  344. I danced a jig……

  345. It’s kind of a shame, but I think since they already have mug shots from booking so there will be no new shots. I’d love to see the guys face tonight.

  346. Halleluiah, halleluiah, halleluiah!!!

    Thank God for Texas.

  347. I’m proud of Texas tonight. (Of course, the screen name is already taken. 🙂

  348. You got it, Ron. Don’t mess with Texas! That’s the message to the FLDS.

  349. On a sad night here in Texas, I would just like to thank all the people who worked so hard getting this information out, and all the people with the expertise who took their precious time to help us understand. Thanks all.

    To the enablers: We have lines, you won’t cross them. Now go have a fit.

  350. Seems brooke’s tongue is tied on this one,, she hasn’t posted about it , other than twitter and Willie had no comment,, that amazing!!!! The MOUTH is silent

  351. Hey Warren. You know that revelation or idea or whatever you had to move to the great state of Texas and build a fancy new palace for your harem and your band of thugs?

    BIG mistake.

  352. Miele, you are such a sweetheart.

  353. Oh, she finally coughed up a blurb . . . Gave the news “Guilty” to a passerby – whose only comment was “GOOD!”

    Very telling. No, I dont think Texas or Schleicer county want to be known as the “Kiddie Chicken Ranch of the USA”…

    Its enough to make a persons blood boil. Maybe they will move to Mexico and teach the Government down there how cool they really are.

  354. OBTW

    It seems God answered some prayers. Not FLDS Priesthood prayers though, he was tuned in to different people.

    The Truth Prevailed.

  355. I’m still dancing this morning.

  356. I think it is time to party in the streets of Eldorado!

  357. I wish I could take part in a cyber party with all of you !

  358. This IS a cyber party!

  359. Q’s…When is the next trial scheduled..and for whom?? Or does Eldorado need a break? Do ya think the next attorney will ask for a change of venue? Do they all have the same attorney? He might wanna change his game plan, since this one didn’t work well.

  360. mc1199, Dec 7, Allen Keate

  361. The woman in the dictations was around 50yrs old. She loved David Jeffs as did the other “wives” he had. But WARREN in all his OMNIPRESENCE (HAHAHHA) banished him from FLDS and once again controlled FLDS commodity, the women, wives and under age girls.
    And MEN allowed it happen! And Mothers allowed it happen.
    Why weren’t any xmen of FLDS UP on that stand against Raymond Jessop??? Where were they?? That’s what pisses me off!!! The ones who allowed Warren to just do as he chose, and men WENT when he said GO!! NOT ONE BRAVE X FLDS MALE was willing to get UP on that stand and testify about the damn priesthood!!

    deputydog1 said this on November 5, 2009 at 1:10 PM

    ————————————————————————————————————————————

    D D, I understand your frustrations and anger about what happened and is still happening to Susanna,Janet and literally hundreds of other little girls and women in the flds religion. Also don’t forget the hundreds of young boys being regularly expelled out of their families as well.

    What you expressed is the same feelings some of us Xfldser’s have as well and I want to inform you that not all of us men “WENT when he (warrren) said GO!!”. Some of us stayed and fought against warren and his whole regime in what they were trying to do. It has not been easy.

    You ask why any of the XFLDS men were not willing to be on that court stand in Raymond’s trial?

    The answer is that the state had enough evidence already in this case.

    Had they needed our help, they would have asked and some of us would have responded.

    Speaking for myself, I would have testified if asked to by your state.

    Many of us have dedicated a huge part of our life and are doing the best we can to put a stop to these underage marriages and the ripping apart of the families of our friends and loved ones.

    Do you think Warren had it easy here in Short Creek doing what he was trying to do with the little girls?

    Why do you think that all who remained in Short Creek were condemned and rejected of the Lord?

    It is because warren was being turned in to LE up here in Short Creek. That is why he started making all the marriages so secret and then finally fled to your state as well as others to carry on his crimes.

    When Warren talks about the pressure he was receiving from the apostate’s in his dictation’s; That wasn’t just another one of his nocturnal emissions that he thought was another revelation.

    We were in fact doing everything within our power to bring him to justice and he knew it.

    We finally succeeded. Now we are trying to deal with all of the Hyra’s little heads that are standing up in his place.

    Don’t lump all of us Xfldser’s into the same barrel. Some of us are on your side Deputy Dog.

    I.W.

  362. LOL Whoops, that was the Hydra’s little heads.

    I.W.

  363. I’m happy to hear that, I.W. because no one can be as effective in bringing this group down as those who have been directly harmed by it. 😀

  364. Anonymous
    Trust me, Im not lumping you all together, and If i had been FLDS, and ran or escaped or whatever, I would probably run as far as possible and never look back.

    What I ask, was because the ONLY flds of any kind that got up and testified against Raymond Jessop was a woman, Rebecca Musser. She had NO ONE to back her up in her testimony. A MAN who had once been FLDS could have told the jury exactly what priesthood means in flds.
    Ive yet to see ONE man stand up to flds, they didn’t in Warren’s trial, or this one.

  365. Anonymous IW, I am thrilled to hear you (okay, read you) say what you said. Keep up the good work! We’re behind you!

  366. Anonymous:
    Do the prosecutors know hoe to get in touch with you?
    I am also glad about your post, for I do hope that Warrens reign will be short.

  367. The line forms to left for punishment phase of Raymond Jessop begins Monday I.W.
    Maybe if some of the xflds showed up and set in court, willie and crew might think twice?

  368. I.W. I to apprciate you being on the side of justice, but sometimes we havve to get involved, and not all stand behind the curtain.

  369. To be honest, I wish I lived in Utah, the first person’s ass I would whoop would be Brooke Adams, worst reporter Ive ever seen!!

  370. I’d put “reporter” in quotes when talking about Brooke Adams. A reporter that selective about what she reports has no guts and, as an embarrassment to the profession, doesn’t deserve the title.

  371. The first I’d ever read this Brooke there was no question that she is no journalist. I do not know if she ever trained in the field at university anywhere, but she’s simply not.

  372. Just sent a donation to Hopeorg.org instead of popping a champagne cork in celebration of the guilty verdict. For every single one of the dirty dozen that gets convicted I am sending a donation.
    Brooke is a twit.

  373. Good Idea Ruthie,, Im going to start doing the same thing!! 🙂

  374. Excellent idea.

  375. Was actually C-M’s idea, if I remember right, this is just a slight variation. If duane, cupcake or the likes of ticked her off she sent in a donation.

  376. I think I will give a donation to tripleap.org in honor of the auspicious occasion of Raymond’s guilty verdict. I suggest you all do the same.

  377. Thanks IW for your courage.

  378. Hello everyone. I’ve been working long hours and many days. I don’t know that I will ever catch up on all the threads and comments.

    I did happen to just read the thread about Raymond Jessop Witness list. Had to pick my mouth up off the floor.

    I want to say again that all of you are the greatest. Thank you for sharing.

  379. I.W. I want to apologize if I said anything that hurt your feelings. I was just venting, and Im sure you have had times yourself when you wanted to vent. Everyone has to do what they think is right. I have not walked in your shoes, but I do know you are doing the best you can. I have such a love for children having grandchildren of my own. I can’t imagine anyone sexually assaulting them or any child, its makes me extremely angry.
    And this whole thing for the last year has so enraged me, and If I had the money or power, i would help every abused child in the world, and assume everyone else would to. Thank you for being here, and I will try my best to understand better.

  380. i missed raymond jessop’s witness list for sentencing phase Walton, wehre did you see it ?

  381. Here at this site. Just type in Raymond Jessop Witness list into the search button and it will take you there.

    I didn’t know that the details about the fake ID’s came out.

  382. IW, I presume your identity from your initials. You’ve stood up to a lot of terrible abuse because you had the courage to do what was right, not what was expedient. I have the greatest respect for you, and I trust that in the end you will prevail.

    The LORD bless you and keep you;
    The LORD make His face shine upon you,
    And be gracious to you;
    The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,
    And give you peace.

  383. IW, what GFNY said. Thank you for all that you are doing.

  384. Walton

    If you were trying to post a link, it didn’t come through.

  385. If you’re following Walton’s comments:

    Here’s the witness list

  386. I’m glad to see Walton back.

  387. Walton, glad you’re back and IW, keep on keeping on. Just keep your head up and holler if you need help with the hydra’s heads. I love that analogy!!!

  388. IW, I ditto what GFNY said to you above.

    Is there anything we can do to help?

  389. Ruthies girl:
    yes, I do send a donation to Hope.org, every time someone foulmouthes the brave women of the FLDS who have had the courage to get out. foulmouthing anyone who leaves the FLDS started way back, as well desribed in Ann-Eliza’s book.

  390. Thanks you guys. I never really left. Just tried to fit in reading the many news articles, blog entries and blog posts into an already extremely long day.

    So I am wondering why in the heck didn’t that whole bit about fake ID’s and such make the headline news? If it did I missed it. But I don’t think it did.

    Utah and Arizona have had some major issues going on. Could it be that they are STILL investigating some of that stuff. Did it all branch out to other states?

    I know that there is more to that story.

  391. Thank you for the support everyone.

    I can’t write a response to everyone but here is some general information.

    The Texas prosecutors didn’t need our testimony or they would have requested it. They know what they are doing in these cases.

    LE in Texas can get ahold of us through both Arizona and Utah LE and have always been able to.

    There was a bunch of us lined up to testify in Warren’s trial if needed but Allen got up on the stand and buried himself. We were no longer needed and were taken off of standby.

    Thanx GFNY and you would be right in your presumtion. 🙂

    We just might need help and if we do, we will be sure to holler.

    Just having this site available to the public is a great resource. It is a place that we can steer FLDS people to who are trying to wake up and just want to see the facts, right out of the courts with nobody’s particular spin on it.

    Thank you for making this site available administrator.

    I.W.

  392. http://www.trenthead.com/2009/11/utah-supreme-court-warren-jeffs/

    Photos from inside the Utah Supreme Court.

  393. Deputydog1
    Rebecca Musser was the perfect witness. She was a member of the inner circle and a prophet’s wife.

    Musser is brave smart woman who with confidence conveyed to the jury her personal experience with in the FLDS Cult without the defense rattling her cage.

    Smart, confident women are something FLDS men cannot comprehend.

    Hey, I.W. good to see your comments on this blog.

  394. great link twist.

  395. I was a little baffled by Trent’s photos, because I really can’t figure out which man is Warren. There is a man at the appellant table who might be him but who seems to be writing. Of course, it could be Warren, coloring.

  396. Warren wasn’t there – he stayed in jail in Kingman

  397. In the third photo that shows both the judges and the audience;If you are a judge looking down at the audience, you will see a large contingent of FLDS men off to the right.

    From the aile going left to right is Wendell Neilson (the bald one), then Merril Jessop (who looks like he’s going to sleep) then Lyle Jeffs, Warren’s full blood brother.

    Wendell and Merril are the leaders in Texas and Lyle and thug Willy are the leaders up here.

    Warren seems to be a puppet king right now.

    I.W.

  398. Hey, IW, in that same picture, who is the young man sitting 5th from the aisle going left to right? That poor young man has the unfortunate luck of being the spitting image of warren.

  399. Thanks for clarifying for me… I didn’t really see anyone who fit my mental image of WSJ after a few years of hunger strikes. Call me petty, but I’d really like to see that man with suffering writ large on his brow.

    Wendell and Merril are both pretty elderly. (Merril seems to be suffering from narcolepsy these days.) I would think their scope for mischief is somewhat limited by their waning energy.

    I know what kind of man the Fat Brat is, and it’s chilling to imagine him in any leadership position. What sort of man is Lyle Jeffs? It’s hard to imagine anyone being as nuts as Warren. But less loony might in fact mean more dangerous. And I don’t think it’s good that the leaders in Short Creek are younger and more vital.

    But it’s kind of nice to imagine that all the men in that row are in fact praying that Warren is never released from jail.

  400. Why would Brooke ask the sheriff what Raymond had for lunch today?
    What the hell difference does it make?? I would of told her it was NONE of her business!!

  401. Because she couldn’t think of an intelligent question to ask?

  402. Does Merrill do anything other than Sleep?? LOL

  403. I still think Merril is being drugged. It keeps him from saying anything to the point.

  404. Well I know he has a heart condition, and the man is in his 70’s so it could be the medication he is on… I don’t see how he could take care of anything business wise.

  405. IW,
    Is that Dan Barlow on the 2nd row sitting behind Merril?

  406. LadyS,
    I think that 5th guy is Nephi Jeffs.

  407. So where’s Rod Parker. I can’t believe he would miss this event.

    Did he go to Eldorado for the trial?

    Anybody know?

  408. i didn’t see rod anywhere around eldorado and haven’t heard anyone mention him being in town. wendell didn’t stay long in utah though cuz he was at the trial toward the end of the week.

  409. hI wonder if Raymond expected to be free until sentencing, and had he been, would he have appeared tomorrow, Monday, for that event.

    I have collected some interesting pieces of New Casas Grandes ceramics. Some can even be found at El Paso Saddle Blanket last I knew.

    Texas akbar!

  410. Okay, FA, on Brooke’s blog, managed to totally twist a post I made. Of course he managed to get it in just before Brooke closed the thread. Rather than take up space here, I created my own blog and responded here:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/open-discussion-16/#comment-13959

    I doubt he/she will ever read it but I feel better. 😉

  411. Rebeckah that link leads right back here.

  412. lol, I’ll have to try that again. I wonder what I did wrong? :blush:

  413. http://rebeckahramblings.blogspot.com/2009/11/responding-to-closed-thread.html

    Okay, this will work (I think).

  414. Nicely said, Rebeckah.

  415. Thank you, Greetings.

  416. Rebeckah, I tried reading but even at a larger size, I couldn’t read the orange type on blue background. Not with these ol’ eyes!

  417. Boy, TexasConnie, am I glad you said that first.

  418. Me neither. Can you brighten the orange?

  419. LOL, yes folks, I’ll change the font color. My eyes like weird combinations.

  420. Showtime.

    “Nichols said he anticipated testimony and evidence will reveal the “trading of siblings and daughters” in spiritual marriages…”

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/nov/09/courtroom-mood-solemn-as-flds-sentencing-hearing/

  421. Twist, that article mentioned 2 protesters outside the court room, Dr. Stephen H. Smith and his nurse.

    And here is something I found on this “doctor”. And he wrote this himself!

    http://drstephensmith.com/author.htm

    Stephen H. Smith, M.D.

    Originally forged in Texarkana, Texas, Dr. Stephen Smith has been the subject of numerous and necessary modifications in the states of Texas, Alaska and Colorado and now uncomfortably resides in his hometown of San Angelo, Texas. He’s liberal and most of his neighbors are not, so he’s just one John Birch Society meeting away from being tarred and feathered. Despite several futile attempts to flunk out of medical school, he finally caved and went with the flock in obtaining his
    medical degree. After completing an Internal Medicine Residency at Scott & White Hospital in Temple, Texas, where he served as chief resident, he and his family were moved to San Angelo at the request of all fundamental, right wing tight-asses that lived along the I-35 corridor in central Texas. His wife of 22 years, Paige, is a true saint and mighty fine English riding instructor. They have two beautiful children named Graham and Abigail, and they have both blossomed in spite of their flaky father.

  422. From the same article, Dr. Steven H. Smith and his nurse (male) were protesting in support of the FLDS. Wow. Really?

    I’d think twice about seeing an IMED who thinks child swapping/raping is OK. But I guess it’s free publicity to pimp his book that pops when you google his name. Shame. Shame. Shame.

  423. Sorry, ladysadie you beat me to the punch.

  424. “…has been the subject of numerous and necessary modifications in the states of Texas, Alaska and Colorado…”

    Translation, please.

    Other than this one is a new addition to the cast of colorful characters.

    He wrote that stuff about himself?

    Sheesh.

    Funny thing is that I’m a liberal living comfortably among my conservative West Texas neighbors and I’m at no risk of being tarred and feathered at a JBS meeting or elsewhere.

    I dunno, maybe not making a public spectacle out of myself and not insulting my conservative neighbors has something to do with that.

    Small wonder he was transferred away from Scott-White in Temple.

    How to alienate potential clients via the internets 101

    Who knew they were teaching that in med schools these days?

  425. ladiesadie thanks for the info on the famous Dr.Smith. lol

    Does anyone know if Raymonds mother or mothers attended any part of the trial?

  426. Raymond’s mother is Ruth Steed Jessop, so it is unlikely she attended. I don’t think she has been living at YFZ except for a brief time early on before she was deemed not to be good enough for the elite Zion’s Camp.

  427. And I’m a conservative living happily among my liberal neighbors in New York. (You have to make an effort to get along no matter where you live.)

    Let’s just hope he’s a bad thinker and lousy writer, but a decent doctor. And that he remembered to get someone to cover his calls today.

  428. Thanks texastwist

  429. Dr. Smith is a very brave man to take a financial risk to stand up for what he thinks is right.

  430. Hey, Admin, can we get an “ignore” button on this blog so I don’t have to read alin’s idiocy?

  431. Dr. Smith’s protest is just another example of the out-flowing of support for the YFZ Ranch and the “Dirty Dozen”. As we see the trials continuing to parade by with a likely series of convictions the protesters will likely grow but their topic and focus will shift away from support and toward a clamor for greater Law & Order to stop the crime wave and mitigate this enclaves impact upon the vast majority of citizens that will want protection and enforcement in place to stem this organized racket from spreading their influence within Schleicher County.

  432. I think Ruth is in a nursing home in Nevada, so I’m sure she didn’t attend. The only woman from the ranch that I heard any comment about being in attendance was the old Janet Jeffs (who looks like Rulon).

  433. Alin10 – obviously you don’t live around here, Dr. Smith is always looking for a cause.

  434. “who looks like Rulon”

    LOL…and that she does.

  435. looks to me like the good doctor is trying to increase sales of his book ….

  436. Alin! You were doing so well at the end of the week, had wrapped your mind around the fact that Raymond was correctly convicted. I held you up as a shining example. Don’t slither back into that religious-persecution cave; stay out here in the sunlight with us sane people.

  437. hey i’m a believer now. her picture was in the standard times and dang if she didn’t look like her ole pappy

  438. i guess, word is that he was asked to leave he hospital/clinic and had to go back to private practice off the premises cuz he wasn’t seeing enough patients. mom says he a great diagonistitian.

  439. looks to me like the good doctor is trying to increase sales of his book

    Bingo – Cat hits the most relevant point.

    Dr. Smith’s protest is just another example of the out-flowing of support for the YFZ Ranch and the “Dirty Dozen”

    I disagree. I think many people protest not so much in support of the “dirty dozen” as against CPS and their overreaching.

    Everyone who tries CPS cases felt that CPS greatly overreached. Their knee jerk reactions hurt their case and also put at risk the subgroup they really should have been trying to protect — female children over the age of menses.

    If they’d handled the case different it may not have shut up such folks as the doctor and many folks who post on Brooke’s blog, but it would have made the FLDS supporters’ arguments look much more asinine.

  440. Ron,
    Here in NY, CPS never seems to overreach. They go out of their way to return a child to his / her parents, even when it is potentially dangerous. This has sometimes led to the death of children, if you will recall the case of Hedda Nussbaum, her abusive husband, and their kids.

  441. Ron, I count a brace of attorneys who specialize in family law among my pals. They would tell you that that they don’t think that at all, so don’t generalize that “everybody who tries CPS cases thinks they overreached.”

    I’m no attorney, but I was recently outed in the Trib as a cult leader with the US Army at my disposal so I felt compelled to bone up on large-scale tactical operations this afternoon. What I’ve learned is that it’s hard to pull them off in rapidly-changing conditions, so cut LE and CPS some slack if they didn’t get the details right. I’m sure I’m gonna have similar problems maneuvering my tank troops into place to overrun Warren’s minions.

    More importantly, I read all the court decisions and reports in all their tedious detail. I don’t think they overreached; I think they folded too fast. Remember that report that said something like 25% of the kids there were abused or exposed to abuse? (We dictators have no time for details; look it up yourself.) That report indicates otherwise, that there was substantial child abuse going on at the ranch.

  442. Cat

    Like many things in life, they all exist on a continuum. When I first started practice, Texas was a lot like NY. However, thanks to being one of the reddest of the red states, we’ve lost that perspective.

    Like most things, the pendulum never stops moving. It seems to be moving away from punitive overreaching.

    However, in the FLDS case, the clear consensus of Texas attorneys is that CPS overreached.

  443. I agree with you, Cat. The attorneys I referred to above aren’t in New York or New Jersey.

  444. i think CPS was overwhelmed, but if they had acted logically and returned the small children and kept the teenage and preteen girls, it would have been easier to deal with. it might have taken longer, but they might have been able to save the kids in smaller batches. and yes, some younger children might have been hidden, but if you have the teen and preteen girls out, they are the group being most abused and so i think they should have started there.

  445. For that matter, I kinda doubt that Ms. Natalie Malonis (one of my personal heroes), who is a family law practitioner in Texas, would agree with your statement, Ron, since she fought to have CPS oversight extended for her client.

    Nor would the members of the Texas legislature, who probably include a lawyer or two.

  446. Greetings

    Tell me how a 0-3 year old male child was at risk and we can discuss it.

    You’re absolutely right, they folded like a wet noodle. I also do cut them slack and feel that given all the wacky crap they were confronted with they were faced quite quickly with a number of “snap judgments.” However, it’s not like if you just pick up the over 12 year old females that you can’t go back and pick up the rest of the children later. You don’t have to pick up the nursing infants from the biological comfort of “Momma.” (Or in the contrary create the psychological trauma of separation anxiety.)

    They had a choice and that choice was to act out of fear. Fear that they might be making some wrong decision (like perhaps the “broken bones” were really true.) They chose and they chose poorly. That ended up putting the most vulnerable group at risk.

  447. Maybe we should ask Natalie. I’d imagine she feels he clients got “thrown under the bus.” Why? CPS overreached and wanted to bail.

  448. The fifth guy over in the photo looked like Warren’s brother Nephi. The guy sitting behind Wendell looked like Kevin Barlow. He is quite high up in Warren’s church and is the priciple of all Warren’s private schools. Dan Barlow is Kevin’s uncle.

    I.W.

  449. I recall about 10 yrs ago I was in my husband’s clinic when a woman took her three yr old son and tossed him like a projectile into the footrest of a wheelchair used by an elderly patient. The inferior edge of the child’s eye struck the wheelchair, and the area was read and he was screaming. We attempted to escort mother and child to the ER for xrays to rule out a fracture of one of the facial bones and she took off with the kid. We called hospital security, and they did not want to be involved, so we called CPS. The mother in question had a cocaine and alcohol addiction problem, and had her children taken away from her three times before. They sent a case worker the next day to her home, and the case worker claimed there was not a mark on the child’s face. The worker recommended that the child stay in his mother’s home. I know what we saw.

  450. Here is what the protester at the court today has to say

    Smith said his protest was about freedom of religion for the FLDS members, saying that the laws governing sexual relationships should be subservient to religious and cultural teaching.

    “God designed us to have children at that age,” Smith said of the age of certain minors. “Our Congress knows better than God,” he added sarcastically.

    With regard to laws prohibiting adults from having sex with minors, Smith said, “Perhaps the law should be changed.”

    Another lunatic!!!!!!!

  451. Since FLDS supporters seem to be coming out to protest in support of Raymond, I think that maybe some of the posters on this blog should come to the sentencing hearings to protest as well. The good doctor should not be out there alone protesting in favor of sex with minors.

  452. I’ll give the doctor credit for one thing.

    He came out and said it instead of denying it or trying to walk around it.

  453. IW,

    Kevin Barlow is one of Alvin’s sons, correct?

  454. Yes, he admitted it, but he forgot that underage girls when pregnant have a higher rate of complications with pregnancy than women over age 18 do.

  455. Dr. Smith is a fine blend of Mo’ Lester and Duane.

    Read his comments here:

    tp://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/nov/09/protesters-offer-different-opinions-on-flds/

  456. he also forgot that as a physican HE is supposed to REPORT underage pregnancies according to the law of texas

  457. Ron, since I remember the astonishing infant swap, I have no faith that they would have produced ANY kids under your scenario.

    For that matter, if there are two or more convictions in a row, I will be surprised if all the remaining defendants show up in court. The FLDS has demonstrated they don’t care about money by wasting it on incompetent legal wrangling. What’s a million bucks in sureties if you’re planning on piddling it away on appeals and frivolous lawsuits?

  458. God made me naked. Why on earth am I wearing clothes. I should be free to roam the streets naked without being arrested for indecent exposure.

  459. Doctors are required by law to report it when a minor gives birth to a child, and when a minor has sexual contact with an adult.
    This is required by law. Dr. Smith has apparently forgotten this.

  460. Cat Whisperer: if we’re going to the courthouse tomorrow, we really should carpool.

  461. Aha!

    So cement is one of those scantily clad apostates.

  462. Sounds good. I need to be back home by Thursday at 8 am though.

  463. But if cement is scantily clad just were is he hiding those rocks he is throwing at the fine FLDS folks?

  464. After Musser, clinical psychologist Larry Beall of Salt Lake City, Utah, took the stand.

    Beall explained to jurors the impact generally of sexual assault on a child.

    “When a child is assaulted sexually, it fractures them,” Beall said.

    The child has trouble beyond growing mentally and emotionally beyond the state he’s at, he said.

    As for an adolescent girl, her maturity is frozen, tied up in an avalanche of emotion, Beall told jurors. Instead of using the logical and reasoning parts of her brain to make decisions, the emotional parts of her brain come into play in a misfire that interferes with her development. She would respond emotionally to events and would not develop good decision-making skills, as well as have difficulty coping with life compared to adolescents who had not been assaulted.

    The girl also becomes more malleable to authority figures, Beall said. In particular, the FLDS groom girls to accept underage marriages with much older men, he said.

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/nov/09/courtroom-mood-solemn-as-flds-sentencing-hearing/

  465. Stephen H. Smith, M.D.Contact Author
    Author Biography
    Author Biography Originally forged in Texarkana, Texas, Dr. Stephen Smith has been the subject of numerous and necessary modifications in the states of Texas, Alaska and Colorado and now uncomfortably resides in his hometown of San Angelo, Texas. He’s liberal and most of his neighbors are not, so he’s just one John Birch Society meeting away from being tarred and feathered. Despite several futile attempts to flunk out of medical school, he finally caved and went with the flock in obtaining his medical degree. After completing an Internal Medicine Residency at Scott & White Hospital in Temple, Texas, where he served as chief resident, he and his family were moved to San Angelo at the request of all fundamental, right wing tight-asses that lived along the I-35 corridor in central Texas. His wife of 22 years, Paige, is a true saint and mighty fine English riding instructor. They have two beautiful children named Graham and Abigail, and they have both blossomed in spite of their flaky father.

    http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/author.aspx?authorid=41038

  466. This guy is a total fruitcake!!

  467. hellohellogoodbye,

    Can you please share the source where you read the good doctor’s quote? I really think he needs some publicity for all his effort.

  468. Boots his quote is the name of the book he wrote afterthe Raid happened.. its called “Oh I wish Jesus hadn’t said that”

    http://www2.xlibris.com/book_excerpt.asp?bookid=58683

  469. Dr. Beall’s thesis is pretty standard, that childhood maltreatment can damage the brain and impair the developing mind.

    Even if a 16-year-old’s body is fully mature (and it’s not) her brain won’t reach maturity ‘til she’s 25. The hormones associated with stress, sexual activity and childbearing all affect the brain and it makes no sense to put a girl through hormone tides when her brain is still in a fairly early stage of development.

    The human animal is far too complex for Dr. Smith’s simplistic arguments.

  470. I meant his alleged comments today:

    “Smith said his protest was about freedom of religion for the FLDS members, saying that the laws governing sexual relationships should be subservient to religious and cultural teaching.

    “God designed us to have children at that age,” Smith said of the age of certain minors. “Our Congress knows better than God,” he added sarcastically.

    With regard to laws prohibiting adults from having sex with minors, Smith said, “Perhaps the law should be changed.”

    Or for G-d sakes did he really write this drivle in a book???

  471. Apparently the defense is putting some witnesses on the stand but no clue who:

    http://twitter.com/BenWinslow

  472. Yeah boots he did,, its 50 pages, and HES a fruit cake!!
    And thats quote is his own opinion,,

  473. Boots here is where that fruitloop doctors quote is at:

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/nov/09/protesters-offer-different-opinions-on-flds/

  474. I just submitted that Smith guy’s book to the Bulwer-Lytton contest for the worst opening lines in fiction:

    “Memories of leaving the womb haunted me deep into my thirties…”

  475. Oh thank you, Ladysadie!

  476. HAHA Greetings, you read that to,,, the guy is a NUT!!! And the worst part, he has children 😦

  477. and he’s actually a practicing doctor.

  478. Dr Smith forgot that pregnant teenagers tend to have a higher rate of eclampsia / pre – eclampsia compared to women over 18. Eclampsia is a disorder associated with high blood pressure, possible stroke, and seizures.

  479. Don’t they also suffer fistulas at a higher rate, and deliver more premature and low-birthweight babies than women over age 18?

  480. absolutely Greetings, especially recto – vaginal fistulas. you are absolutely correct regarding the premature and low birthweight babies.
    eclampsia is the worst complication, due to the fact that it is potentially fatal and difficult to manage.

  481. I’m still smiling about Cement streaking through Colorado City. I am a fan of male nudity myself so you’re welcome to join my cult, Cement.

    I know, I know. Been there, done that.

  482. Something just occurred to me while reading the following about Dr Smith in the newspaper article :

    “The holder of the Bible verse sign, Stephen Smith, said he is a doctor from San Angelo who had examined some of the children taken from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints community called the Yearning for Zion Ranch in April of 2008.
    “They were some of the happiest kids I’ve seen,” Smith said.

    What is odd about this statement is that Smith is an internal medicine specialist. They LIMIT their practice to the care of adults, not children, which is the requirement of the American Board of Internal Medicine. Why is he claiming he is examining kids ?
    Internists are not trained in pediatrics. Pediatricians and family practitioners are. CPS would not have sent the children to be examined by a specialist in internal medicine. CPS would have sent the kids to be examined by a pediatrician.
    Is he telling the truth ?
    Or is it that this internist, Dr Smith, is a hired FLDS gun, providing “second opinions” for FLDS leadership for profit, despite the fact he has no training in pediatrics?

  483. The man might need peer review if he’s treating patients outside his certification.

    Thanks for catching that, CW.

  484. That was a tongue in cheek in response to Dr. Smith stating that God designed females to start reproduction before the legal age. I still wear long sleeve shirts because that is how my neurons have been programmed, and I don’t feel comfortable any other way, unless global warming gets out of control.

    Using his logic, why shave? Of cut my hair. That’s unnatural!!! Or bathe! We should let a natural ecosysem develop in our unwashed skin because that’s obviouly how God designed us. His argement can easily be taken ad-absurdum.

  485. Brief SLT article about today’s events:

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13751256

  486. Alin! You were doing so well at the end of the week, had wrapped your mind around the fact that Raymond was correctly convicted.
    ===================================================
    Umm my friend. I’ve never said that Raymond was correctly convicted, that would be up to the court of appeals. I said the jury has spoken and given the evidence they reviewed, more then likely I would have voted the same. Not that even if I lived in Texas I would have been on that jury, I’m too familiar with the case and due to ethical considerations I would have disclosed my familiarity.

  487. “God designed us to have children at that age,” Smith said of the age of certain minors. “Our Congress knows better than God,” he added sarcastically.

    With regard to laws prohibiting adults from having sex with minors, Smith said, “Perhaps the law should be changed.”
    ===========================================================
    Most of you will like this but I disagree with the gentleman. If I had to pick up an arbitrary age that it seems safest for girls to get pregnant I would assume 16; the body is for the most part as fully developed as it’s going to get with maybe a bit more weight gain with a few more years.

    I also disagree with his statement about adults and minors. We have to pick a arbitrary cut off point somewhere, else we be forever reviewing the competency levels of teenage men and women, and 15 and below maybe 16 and below seems a good arbitrary point to me.

  488. As for an adolescent girl, her maturity is frozen, tied up in an avalanche of emotion, Beall told jurors. Instead of using the logical and reasoning parts of her brain to make decisions, the emotional parts of her brain come into play in a misfire that interferes with her development. She would respond emotionally to events and would not develop good decision-making skills, as well as have difficulty coping with life compared to adolescents who had not been assaulted.
    ========================================================
    What a kook! He just told the world that a female rape victim will never be able to be trusted with holding power in corporations or government.

  489. What a kook! He just told the world that a female rape victim will never be able to be trusted with holding power in corporations or government.

    That’s your words not Beall’s. Besides what part of “compared to adolescents who had not been assaulted” didn’t you understand?

    He’s talking about subgroups of people. In the end, what happens to an individual depends on a number of factors. I’m sure if you asked Beall he’d specifically say that a female rape victim COULD be trusted with holding power in corporations or government.

    Nice try though.

  490. Actually, Alinusara, the statistics show that the health of both the mother and the baby (successful result pregnancies) are highest in the early 20s. Even at 16, there are still more risks than there would be in a few more years.

  491. he also forgot that as a physican HE is supposed to REPORT underage pregnancies according to the law of texas
    ===============================================
    Nuh uh! He is supposed to report suspected child abuse.

  492. Actually, Alinusara, the statistics show that the health of both the mother and the baby (successful result pregnancies) are highest in the early 20s. Even at 16, there are still more risks than there would be in a few more years
    =======================================================
    You are probably right. I just gave it an arbitrary point (there has to be one somewhere) and 16 seemed logical to me because bone development in human females probably is completed about there.

  493. Actually, Alinusara, the statistics show that the health of both the mother and the baby (successful result pregnancies) are highest in the early 20s. Even at 16, there are still more risks than there would be in a few more years.
    ———–
    Not to mention that there is a lot more to be taken into consideration besides just biological readiness. They’re humans, not livestock.

  494. He’s talking about subgroups of people. In the end, what happens to an individual depends on a number of factors. I’m sure if you asked Beall he’d specifically say that a female rape victim COULD be trusted with holding power in corporations or government.
    =========================================================
    The danger is, by buying into the data like Dr. Beall states people in general will tend to scrutinize victims of sexual assault more carefully then then average Joe before trusting them in positions of authority.

  495. They’re humans, not livestock.
    ==============================================
    So very true ellie but you must admit 16 year olds have been having sex for millions of years. Not me unfortunately, my first time was when I was 19.

  496. “he also forgot that as a physican HE is supposed to REPORT underage pregnancies according to the law of texas
    ===============================================
    Nuh uh! He is supposed to report suspected child abuse.”.

    alin, you dimwit, underage pregnancies ARE child abuse.

  497. “What a kook! He just told the world that a female rape victim will never be able to be trusted with holding power in corporations or government.”

    No, he didn’t. He said that their emotional maturity had been impacted. Girls who receive help for their trauma will probably be able to go on and do well. Girls who don’t, or worse, are encouraged to view their abuse as an honor and blessing, are likely to remain children in emotion and much of their reasoning ability. It’s undoubtedly how this group has managed to keep as many women as they have and how they get grown women to participate in the abuse of their children — or at least turn a blind eye.

    “You are probably right. I just gave it an arbitrary point (there has to be one somewhere) and 16 seemed logical to me because bone development in human females probably is completed about there.”

    When I was pregnant at 18 I told my doctor that I had at least waited until I was an adult to start reproducing. He told me that my body wasn’t completely finished developing until I was in my mid 20s. He suggested 25 as the ideal age for a woman to begin bearing children for both her health and the baby’s health. Also, I’d think if you were going to pick an arbitrary age that the age of 18, when you can legally enter into contracts, would be far more reasonable than 16, when you should still be in school learning how to reason for yourself.

  498. I must have missed the spot on job applications that ask if you were sexually assaulted as a child. Apparently, in Alin’s world, it’s there.

  499. So very true ellie but you must admit 16 year olds have been having sex for millions of years. Not me unfortunately, my first time was when I was 19.
    ————–
    Not really. Most estimates I’ve heard say humans have been on Earth no more than 200,000 years. And, if we’re going to talk about what they did in those 200,000 or so years, humans have also murdered, stolen, tortured, raped and enslaved.

  500. “The danger is, by buying into the data like Dr. Beall states people in general will tend to scrutinize victims of sexual assault more carefully then then average Joe before trusting them in positions of authority.”

    Only by people who don’t use their own intelligence to make decisions. The average Joe has no reason to know if the average Jane (or Joe) was sexually assaulted as a child anyway. Your argument is rather specious.

    “So very true ellie but you must admit 16 year olds have been having sex for millions of years.”

    Are you sure about that? Until relatively recently 16 was the mean age to BEGIN puberty. There is no scientific evidence to back up your claim and it sounds rather like what Mopologists like to claim when defending Joseph Smith’s predatory behavior towards vulnerable young girls. Yes, some 16 year olds DO have sex, as do some younger girls. It is not necessarily the norm and it is certainly not something to be encouraged. And I would venture the guess that it is usually between kids close in age. If it isn’t, then it is predatory behavior.

  501. alin, you dimwit, underage pregnancies ARE child abuse.

    ====================================================
    You never heard of two 16 year olds getting together?

  502. I must have missed the spot on job applications that ask if you were sexually assaulted as a child. Apparently, in Alin’s world, it’s there.

    ===================================================
    They don’t do background checks on presidential candidates?

  503. When it’s two sixteen year olds, it’s doubly abusive. Especially if pregnancy results.

  504. Also, I’d think if you were going to pick an arbitrary age that the age of 18, when you can legally enter into contracts, would be far more reasonable than 16, when you should still be in school learning how to reason for yourself.
    =====================================================
    Since I consider 18 year olds waaaaay too young for me I could live with that. If I was still 18, 19, 20 year old I probably would argue for 16.

  505. When it’s two sixteen year olds, it’s doubly abusive. Especially if pregnancy results.
    ====================================================
    It’s a bad idea true. But abusive? I don’t think so. Of those 2 16 year olds which one you gonna charge with child abuse?

  506. Alin, contrary to your claims, human females experience epiphyseal plate ossification at age 21, males at age 25.
    translation : cessation of bone growth in females is not complete
    at age 16.

  507. Whoops, above should read that bone growth does not cease at age 16 in human females.

  508. alin, two 16 yr olds who have sex outside of marriage, resulting in pregnancy, will suffer the consequences. The female is not physically or emotionally read to go through pregnancy and raise a child. The male is not either, and furthermore may never have access to his child, or even knowledge that he has that child. If he IS told of the child, the first priority of the maternal grandparents is going to get child support from his or his family. His parents are cheated of their grandchild. Her parents are additionally burdened with caring for a new infant. Believe me, it’s an abusive situation. Some folks come out of just fine, but I have never met any who didn’t admit they paid a high price.

  509. “They don’t do background checks on presidential candidates?”

    Are you trying to say that the only job in America that counts as “corporate or government” is being President?

    I guess you’re just back in troll mode.

  510. “It’s a bad idea true. But abusive? I don’t think so. Of those 2 16 year olds which one you gonna charge with child abuse?”

    Wow, for once you make a valid point. Better be careful or you’ll slip into reason by accident.

  511. Alin: Most of you will like this but I disagree with the gentleman. If I had to pick up an arbitrary age that it seems safest for girls to get pregnant I would assume 16; the body is for the most part as fully developed as it’s going to get with maybe a bit more weight gain with a few more years.

    ……………………………………………

    As the mother of a 22 year daughter I can only say Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

    Physically, she is different, she is at least an inch taller. At 16, she was a high school kid, at 22 she is a college graduate and a world traveler, she went to school in Europe and now is in SE Asia.

    Being blessed with this wonderful young woman in my life is why the FLDS makes me so angry. What is the friggin rush to start pumping out babies. Those poor little child brides miss out on so much; no education, no chance to see the world, no man who forsakes all others, not even the promise to get into heaven simply through the love of the Lord.

    Men in their 30’s and 40’s and older having sex with teenagers is disgusting and immoral, and anyone who supports it is a misogynist,pure and simple.

  512. Following with Anon E Mouse, I’d say that a strong argument could be made for early twenties also. That’s when executive functioning finally catches up to sexual maturation.

    However, from a legal standpoint I’d say you’re stuck with 17 or 18. 17 because that’s when we start holding them criminally responsible or 18 since that’s when they’re disabilities are removed as a minor.

  513. Ron,
    Alin thinks that skeletal maturity is a criterion for women to start having children. Women don’t achieve skeletal maturity till age 21 – he thought it was 16.
    I think that skeletal maturity is a good criterion as well from a medical standpoint. (it feels strange to be in agreement with Alin though)

  514. Gosanangelo is reporting deliberations began at 11:50 a.m. CST

  515. Cat

    I agree that skeletal development is probably the best measure. It makes a lot of common sense that a female with a fully developed skeletal system is the best equipped for pregnancy.

    I’m just saying that I think the legal line drawing has more to do with executive functioning.

  516. Alin believes the law makes an arbitrary distinction by placing the age of consent at 17, and he wishes to override it with his own arbitrary age of consent of 16 (which just happens to exonerate the defendant).

    The trend has been for ages of responsibility to rise in the US—for marriage, sexual consent, drinking, and driving. I expect that trend will continue as life span increases and we demand more and more education from our youth.

  517. Brooke is tweeting that the jury is deliberating.

  518. I certainly hope the jurors listened well to all the witnesses, and really studied the evidence in this case. I also hope they understand that just because someone is a “nice guy” on the job, doesn’t mean they can’t be a abuser of a child.

  519. GFNY: The trend has been for ages of responsibility to rise in the US-for marriage, sexual consent, drinking, and driving. I expect that trend will continue as life span increases and we demand more and more education from our youth.

    ……………………………

    I can only speak anecdotally from a middle class American perspective, but most people I know in my community and extended family are not getting married and having children until they are into their early thirties. It is EXPECTED by the community at large that all teenagers be high school graduates and that they go on to some form of higher education, girls as well as boys.

    My daughter has a business degree
    My stepdaughter has a degree in mechanical engineering
    Niece #1 has a degree in fashion design
    Niece #2 is going to culinary school

    A life spent behind compound walls breeding babies so some old white guy can become ruler of his own planet? It would be funny if not so sad for the girls stuck with such a fate.

  520. So its 3:00, whats taking so long??

  521. Anon E Mouse, hooray for your daughter, your stepdaughter and your nieces!!!

  522. Statistics bear out your anecdotal observation, Anon. E. Mouse

    In 1950, about 30% of Americans age 25 or older were high school graduates. In 2000, it was about 85%.

    In 1950, about 5% of Americans age 25 or older had a bachelor’s degree or more. In 2000 it was almost 30%.

  523. Congrats Anon E Mouse! Children need to know they can chose education and should, even if they get married and have children, having an education gives a woman something to fall back on if she should ever need it. LIke if divorce happens, or etc.

  524. Geez, deppidy. In MY world, women who marry and have children continue to work. I know very, very few full-time homemakers.

  525. Well I agree Rattle, but sometimes the woman works in a career before she has children to. She uses her education first, then has a family. I don’t know to many families anymore where both parents don’t HAVE to work.

  526. Many women of earlier generations will tell you they wish they had been encouraged to go to college and have careers.

    Speaking of fabulous women – I saw Maya Angelou on TV yesterday. I wish she was my grandmom.

  527. Browsing in the Guardian, I came across this:

    “‘The lowest divorce rates are among people who marry late with more education; the highest ones are among those who marry young with less education,’ said Betsey Stevenson of the Wharton school at Pennsylvania University. ‘And there is a sliding scale in between.’”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/sep/27/divorce-linked-to-age-education

  528. Sentenced: 10 years without probation + $8,000 fine (according to Brooke).

  529. Well so the findings in Court were the real Truth Will Prevail, as opposed to the FLDS Church leadership’s edited version, states that Raymond Merril Jessop is a felon sex offender of young women and sentenced to prison. We, also, now know, excluding uninformed information denied by the FLDS spokesperson Willie R. Jessop, that ‘Child Brides’ do exist with a list of additional San Angelo Grand Jury indictments of eight (8) more such cases. Does anyone now still believe the innocent FLDS Adults, that were residing at the YFZ Ranch, that stated they were unaware of any ‘Child Brides’ living in the covert enclave? The truth is that young women are being raised on a Felony Farm for Females to be sexually assaulted by older Priesthood members by design and order of their chosen prophet. This is a direct violation of Texas sexual assault laws and is being done under the unfounded claim of illegal wedlocks, called ‘celestial marriage’.

    No government at the State, County or Municipal levels can withstand such an reckless disregard for the established Law & Order and attack upon peaceful and Law abiding citizens. The Texas Judicial system has acted and will continue to act to stem and stop such felonious and unlawful behaviors being perpetrated by fanatical religious fundamentalists who have arrived in their county with this criminal mindset being espoused.

  530. Well said, cajIM. In collecting all the news reports for the AAAP news link site, I keep reading this same paragraph: “The girl in the assault case, now 21, was previously in a spiritual marriage with Jessop’s brother before being “reassigned” to Jessop when she was 15, according to documents seized at the ranch. She became pregnant at age 16.”

    It breaks my heart to read this. Young girls passed around as concubines from one older man to the next under the guise of religion. How it must break the heart of God, as well.

    Our society cannot tolerate this. Thank God that 12 citizens in Schleicher County, Texas put a stop to one guilty man. I do wish they’d given him 20 years, but at least they didn’t give him a pass.

  531. I noticed that the “Truth Will Prevail” site has been quiet since about mid April.

    I wonder what they have to say about the TRUTH of Raymond Jessop getting 10 years in prison?

  532. Brooke is running a poll over on The Plural Life blog whether the sentence was too heavy, too light, or just right. The pro-sexual-assault-of-young-girls viewpoint is ahead at this point, i.e. “too heavy” is winning, which doesn’t surprise me, given Brooke’s readership. Of course, I cast my vote for “too light.”

  533. It just shows where the Aiders and Abettors Society feels welcome, Connie.

  534. I wonder what the results of that poll would be on the gosanangelo site?

  535. I voted that he should have gotten the maximum. But I’m only one person. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if the PPSG are using sock puppets to vote too.

    Of course, the Just Right and Too Light votes combined equal the Too Heavy votes, which says that at least half of us feel his conviction was valid. I suspect the “too lights” feel that Raymond shouldn’t have been convicted in the first place — because what’s a little “consensual” sex between an adult and a brainwashed child?

  536. Rebeckah the law does not weigh into what the victim thinks, says nor wishes. It is one of the severest sexual assault statutes aimed solely at the Adult sex offender, which states you had better not or the most severe consequences in our Law and Courts will be decided against you to stop your foul and heinous behavior. We as a free society have every right to choose this form of punishment against sexual predators and child abusers. Further, claiming that this most infamous of crimes is devoid of a ‘victim’ decries the importance and intention of the Texas Legislators to dissuade any sex offender from committing such a heinous and barbaric act. It is an assault against the ‘Will of the People’ and an outrageous trespass against all law abiding Texans. Willie R. Jessop is a now a proven liar to state that he was ever unaware of ‘Child Brides’ being married upon the YFZ Ranch which we need to term this felony location more accurately as a Felony Farm for Females.

  537. Perhaps the FLDS will open their eyes consider the convictions and jailing of their leaders as a message from the Lord. After all, they have broken the Seventh Commandment repeatedly (You shall not commit adultery)

    And since the purpose of FLDS polygamy is so a man can eventually BECOME A GOD and rule his own planet, they are intent on breaking the First Commandment also.

    Stay tuned, more messages coming curtesy of the people of the great State of Texas.

  538. cajIM, I like the term Felony Farm, except it’s the males committing the felonies, not the females. Well, except for the moms who give their daughters over to the old perverts. I agree that there need to be some charges made against some of the women, like Barbara Jessop, who are accomplices to sexual assault of a minor.

  539. I have been researching the history of FDLS and specifically the Warren Jeffs case. This type of crime/syndrome/behavior among fundamentalist polygamists is THE hushed-up story of our times, in this country. I am wondering about those women under Wareen Jeffs’ control — if and why they returned to that way of life after the authorities released them and their children. Does anybody know? Does anyone know if a new “Prophet” has taken over Jeffs’ position? If so, are the men and women obeying as they did before? Thank you for any help!

  540. Researcher, there has been a lot of discussion on this site about whether a new “prophet” is in charge and if so, who. Problem is, there is no definitive answer as far as I can tell. We do have some commenters here who are ex-FLDS and perhaps they can give a better perspective.

    It appears that most of the women went back to the ranch, and to a life of obedience to the prophet — which is the only way of life they’ve ever known. But some families are living off the ranch now. Whether they are still following FLDS, I don’t know.

    BTW, I agree about it being the hushed-up story of our times.

  541. Not all the women returned to the ranch, some still live in San Antonio area.

  542. Thank you Texasconnie and duputydog? for your feedback. It would be very helpful if an ex-FDLS commenter could help me with this discussion…

    So the women returned to the ranch. Warren was living in his own compound before everything broke and the FDLS over which he presided lived on the ranch in Colorado City, is that correct? And regarding the San Antonio area, is this an area to which ex-members can flee and find a safety net?

    It’s interesting how nobody hears about them anymore. The story came out — there was a lot of hoopla, mixed in with a bit of sensationalism — and then nothing! Except that women and children were returning to that horrible life. No signs of their husbands anywhere.. It was all very odd and no real explanation was forthcoming. Now that I have researched this I understand. But back then I was clueless. It seems that “legitimate authorities” manage to contain the damage that is perpetrated on women, children, men and society in general. People who should be protecting the public instead enforce criminal behavior. Do you agree?

  543. What I mean about containing the damage is that elected officials and law enforcement have managed to keep this all very quiet while at the same time encouraging more of the same despicable behavior.

  544. No resercher, it wasn’t kept quiet, there were lots of documentation going on the last year. Of course the prosecution would not release all the evidence they had until the trial.
    CPS lost control, someone much higher than the governor pulled some strings to stop their investigations. My guess is Michael Leavett who was head of Health and Human Services until Obama was elected and put in office the begining of 2009. Leavitt is a mormon from Utah, and held that office for the United States.
    Law enforcement have continuted their investigations all along.

  545. No, the ranch was in Texas, and the safety net in Utah.

  546. It is true that CPS has kept most of the dning evidence from making it’s way into the public. If the information were made public, it would make CPS look real bad because they sent kids back into abusive environments and washed their hands of the cases — they did this very deliberately and with full knowledge.

    Perhaps there will be a legislative investigation.

  547. wow M. Leavitt a mormon! he oversaw CPS?

  548. It was Albert Hawkins who made the call — commissioner of Texas Health and Human Services. His interim commissioner of DFPS, Ben Delgado, helped carry out the directive.

  549. I knew it was one or the other FldsTexas maybe Both! I hope there is a legislative investigation MYSELF!

  550. How do we go about requesting a legislative investigation? Contact our state representative and senator? I definitely think we need one. I don’t fault the CPS workers but the higher-ups who called the investigation off when there was real evidence that some children should not be returned to their parents.

  551. Maybe contact Darby and Rose.. they are the ones who held the committie meeting awhile back.

  552. Isn’t it the duty and responsibility of everyone involved to help and not harm? I understand that higher-ups have their reasons to issue directives that are counter to the public good (and I wonder if these directives were ever expliicit rather than implicit) yet how can the hands-on workers who had actual contact with abused women and children not speak out and ACT? Group think? It seems they are as hypnotized by their group dynamics as are the women who allow their own children to be sacrificed… I still don’t know all the names of those who pulled rank and how high up it went, if anyone can enlighten me, please do!!!

  553. researcher many CPS workers and CASA workers did speak up! But, they have to go by what supervisors and heads of CPS said to do.
    If you are a researcher as you claim, you would know all this, its all very well documented right on this site, if you take time to read all the evidence, etc.

  554. FLDSTexas just told you who it was.. Did you not read the post they made?

  555. yes I have to go through this site better. Thank you!

  556. Maybe you should be talking to FLDS members researcher,, the state of Texas tried to help,, Flds have been harming for YEARS!

  557. Yes FDLS has been harming for many many decades… I know. I guess I am just horrified that the outside world does little to stop the madness.

  558. This is really disgusting news, and probably relevant:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091111/ap_on_re_us/us_family_sex_crimes

  559. researcher, part of the reason is the fact, Law Enforcement have to have concrete evidence, witnesses who are willing to come forward and testify against abusers. Law Enforcement can’t just go knocking down doors without reason, and had it not been for the caller to the shelter, Law Enforcement couldn’t have investigated the Flds or the Ranch.

  560. Hmmm, I tried to post something and it apparently didn’t go through. Let me try again. Admin, if this is a double post feel free not to post both. (I’m thinking maybe a did something to be moderated — maybe.)

    Anyway, I just wanted to let you all know that I made a response to something Bruce in Montana said to me on Brooke’s site. I had already made over my two posts on that thread and didn’t want to push for yet another post so I responded on my own blogsite. Feel free to give me feedback on both the comment and the new colors for the site. (I love feedback.) 😀

    http://rebeckahramblings.blogspot.com/

  561. hmmmmmmmmmmmm i’m suddenly feeling the need to chat with darby.

  562. Did we once have on here a picture of Raymond Jessop in a kitchen with his wives?

  563. Bummer.

    http://www.fallingorflying.com/archives/2390

    Entrepreneurial FLDS Crafts Closes Webfront Store

    So much for that tacky overpriced throw pillow I’ve been coveting for the hunting cabin.

    Back to square one on the redecoration scheme.

    What to do, what to do?

  564. Anonymous 8:26 PM,

    This file at The Hope Organization’s website contains a couple of photos of Raymond and some of his wives in a kitchen:

    http://www.childbrides.org/TeresaJeffs_Happy_to_be_Married_photos_CASA_document3.pdf

    And whoa…the last time I looked at that file, I was not using a monitor as large as the I have now.

    The first photo in the file is literally “in your face.”

  565. Holy shinola…

    LEXINGTON, Mo. | They said they were just little girls trying to bury their horror in jars around the farm…

    They wanted somebody to know what happened to them. So, according to authorities, the sisters wrote notes about the years of sexual abuse at the hands of older relatives and hid them in the earth.

    Years would pass. But on Wednesday, authorities came to the farm south of Bates City, Mo., to dig for the notes — and possibly a body.

    http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1564393.html

    The men arrested are reported to be lay ministers with the Community of Christ church which is headquartered in Independence, Missouri.

    The Associated Press writes that the Community of Christ church split from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon) as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints until it became the Community of Christ church in 2001.

  566. Correct the above comment to read that three of the five men arrested are reported to be lay ministers with the Community of Christ church.

  567. Pretty darned good resource for Missouri, including links to Missouri statutes addressing sexual violence against children.

    http://www.shatteredsouls.net/id16.html

  568. The RLDS people did not go west with Brigham Young. They stayed in the midwest and organized a church with Joseph Smith’s son as the president. Their headquarters in is Independence, Missouri. They are now known as the community of Christ. The Temple in Kirtland, Ohio that Joseph Smith had built is owned and controlled by the community of Christ.

  569. it was “in your face” on my computer too twist.

  570. If the charges in Missouri hold true, it is one of the most horrific sex crimes I’ve ever read about. I recoil at the idea that such people can live in our society. It is particularly galling that some of these men were lay ministers.

    I’m a person of faith myself, but I recognize how the pulpit can be a siren call to abusers. It gives them power and a sense of sanctimonious self-justification. If “Elmer Gantry” by Sinclair Lewis isn’t still required reading in American high schools, it should be.

    Chemist, thanks for the history note. I knew who these people were, but I didn’t realize they were using the historic temple built by Jos. Smith.

  571. Greetings: There is some degree of cooperation between the Community of Christ and the LDS. Some years ago I chaperoned an LDS youth group on a trip to the Kirtland temple. The COC people were gracious and our tour guide was very informative. The COC also owns and controls some of the historical sites in Nauvoo, IL.
    In both locations some sites are owned by the LDS and some by the COC. In both areas there is a reasonable degee of cooperation between the groups.

  572. Chemist,
    You know that I have complete admiration for you so please take my question to be respectful. As I understand it while the Mormon church has renounced polygamy there has been no revelation that the specific D&C (is this the correct terminology) that specifies polygamy is to be revised and redacted (removed). Could not the authorities of the church be proactive in this manner?

  573. Being blessed with this wonderful young woman in my life is why the FLDS makes me so angry
    ===========================================================
    How do you know Janet isn’t blessed with a wonderful young toddler who someday will be a wonderful young woman?

  574. However, from a legal standpoint I’d say you’re stuck with 17 or 18. 17 because that’s when we start holding them criminally responsible or 18 since that’s when they’re disabilities are removed as a minor.
    =========================================================
    Actually RiH about 12 is when we start holding them as criminally responsible.

  575. Alin believes the law makes an arbitrary distinction by placing the age of consent at 17, and he wishes to override it with his own arbitrary age of consent of 16 (which just happens to exonerate the defendant).
    ==================================================
    Nuh uh! 16 is personally fine with me but that’s my personal judgement. Since in Texas the age of consent is 17, I’m more then willing to accept it from a legal standpoint.

    You are mistaking my personal philosophy for my moral and legal code.

  576. Could have been worse, PT.

    Could have been Allen Keate.

  577. Suddenly my posts aren’t going through? What’s going on?

  578. Hmmm, Or should I say, suddenly my posts with a link aren’t going through?

  579. I just thought we should try something like this:

    http://www.good.is/post/is-saying-sorry-better-than-prison/?gt1=48001

  580. Interesting link. But do you really think that would work with people like “steven,” “street,” et al?

  581. What I would like to see, seeing how we did this all for Janet, is for her to be the recipient of the $8,000 fine Raymond must pay.

  582. Well, I think the only thing that would work for Street/Steven is containment. The man is mentally ill and I seriously doubt even medication will help him. So he should simply be kept from vulnerable children and weak minded men and women and left alone.

  583. “What I would like to see, seeing how we did this all for Janet, is for her to be the recipient of the $8,000 fine Raymond must pay.”

    Al, while Janet was one of the victims, this was not “all about” her. In fact it was more about protecting the up and coming Janets. Giving her the 8,000$ would be akin to giving Exxon stations the fine for an oil company’s tanker leak.

    The money will undoubtedly go to the state to help defray the cost of revealing Raymond’s criminal acts. Too bad so many of the FLDS (particularly in leadership) are so keen on continuing to commit them.

  584. Alin, the $8,000Dollar fine should be given to Janet right after she signs her sworn affidavit stating that ‘sexual assault’ is a ‘victim crime’ and where she was when her child with Raymond was conceived, that would be worth about $8,000Dollars. Say maybe you would like Raymond to have his own personal jail cell installed in his YFZ Ranch home and give him the only key?

    Why don’t you ask Bill Medvecky why he alters postings on his sight and re-edits the content? Has that ever happened here to you? Why are you such an ardent truth seeker on this blog and willing wimp on BileM’s blog?

  585. I would like to see the women provide the children both boys and girls with support for their choices, by letting them know they have choices. Giving them the self esteem they need to make right choices , not the ones THEY chose for them.

  586. I don’t think that’s going to happen without a change of faith, DD. The concept of obedience to the prophet and devoting your life to the group, not to your own needs, is pretty central.

  587. Well it’s a good time to start!!! Otherwise these girls are like prostitutes, only dressed modestly, but they are given and taken at will by some goof who says he is prophet!
    The prophet doesn’t like a man, he gives the girl and her children to another man to sexually assault and haven more children,,,

  588. Alinusara doesn’t believe half of what she says here or on mudpuppys blog.. she is a sheeple like FLDS who just follow whatever

  589. Alinusara is not a she, DD. Al is a he. 😉

  590. Oh yeah, I forgot Rebecca, thanks for reminding me 🙂

  591. Al, while Janet was one of the victims, this was not “all about” her. In fact it was more about protecting the up and coming Janets. Giving her the 8,000$ would be akin to giving Exxon stations the fine for an oil company’s tanker leak.
    =======================================================
    Really? Instead of Exxon stations I think you meant Exxon stations operators. They wasn’t the victims of Exxon’a
    Valdez oil spill. That would be the operators of the fishing industry who I believe should have gotten the fine.

  592. “Really? Instead of Exxon stations I think you meant Exxon stations operators.”

    Okay, yes, I meant the human beings who own and run the Exxon stores.

    “They wasn’t the victims of Exxon’a
    Valdez oil spill.”

    Are you sure about that? After all, the price of crude oil probably went up causing economic hardship.

    “That would be the operators of the fishing industry who I believe should have gotten the fine.”

    No concern for the wildlife that was impacted by the spill? No money for the groups that cleaned the oil clogged birds and sea mammals? Your view of “victim” is so predictably narrow. Of course we can both agree that handing off money to someone who will simply hand it back to his/her abusers is probably a bad idea. The money does not belong to Janet, although if she applies for state aid I suppose she will get some of it that way. And, as has been pointed out before, Janet is hardly the ONLY victim.

  593. Alin, how many women doctors in FLDS,, Attorneys, Accountants, Scientists? How many OBGYN’s? How many ?

  594. Al doesn’t care, DD. In Al’s world all women can want to do is anything connected with bearing, raising and “properly” educating hordes of children. Any woman who doesn’t go along with that is evil and should be chastised back into “proper” womanly behavior (and appropriately modest and uncomfortable clothes).

    (Of course this is only an opinion based on Al’s posts condoning, excusing, and encouraging child exploitation and abuse.)

  595. Arent the FLDW tee-totalers? In the photos of Raymond and his wives at the kitchen table with a baby in his lap, Teresa looks kind of out of it even though she is cuddling up.

  596. sorry, FLDS – typing error

  597. Texas Twist, thanks for the link about Raymond’s wives at the table…..

  598. Alin, how many women doctors in FLDS,, Attorneys, Accountants, Scientists? How many OBGYN’s? How many ?
    =====================================================
    Dunno. I would highly recommend you come up with a scholarship program to address those needs if you are interested in helping.

    In Al’s world all women can want to do is anything connected with bearing, raising and “properly” educating hordes of children.
    ====================================================
    In Ali’s world all women are free to have choices from child bearing and the raising of children to a career path if that is their inclination.

  599. Are you sure about that? After all, the price of crude oil probably went up causing economic hardship.
    ==========================================
    Heh! Due to the public relations fiasco the spill entail the Exxon station was the cheapest gas in town.

    Janet is hardly the ONLY victim.
    =====================================
    She was the one Raymond was convicted of assaulting. Or are you trying to argue that sexual assault victims don’t deserve compensation from their attackers?

  600. Actually A-li-n, Texas does address victims compensation:

    http://www.oag.state.tx.us/victims/about_comp.shtml

    “The primary purpose of the Fund is encouraging greater victim participation in the apprehension and prosecution of criminals and reimbursing innocent victims for certain out-of-pocket expenses incurred as a result of violent crime.”

    Here are the requirements:

    “Basic Qualification Requirements
    Residency

    * The crime must occur in Texas to a Texas resident or a United States resident, or
    * the crime must involve a Texas resident who becomes a victim in another state or country that does not have crime victims’ compensation benefits for which the victim would be eligible.

    Reporting the Crime

    The crime must be reported to the appropriate law enforcement agency within a reasonable period of time, but not so late as to interfere with or hamper the investigation and prosecution of the crime.

    Filing for Compensation (TCCP, Art.56.37.)

    You must file the application within three years from the date of the crime. The time may be extended for good cause, including the age of the victim or the physical or mental incapacity of the victim.

    Cooperation (TCCP, Art.56.45.)

    A claim may be denied or reduced if the claimant or victim has not cooperated with the appropriate law enforcement agencies. ”

    Oops, I think Teresa’s claim would be denied for several reasons.

  601. “She was the one Raymond was convicted of assaulting. Or are you trying to argue that sexual assault victims don’t deserve compensation from their attackers?”

    Sure. All she has to do is sue him in civil court for damages. However, the fine is a payment to the state not to a victim who doesn’t believe she is a victim.

  602. “Oops, I think Teresa’s claim would be denied for several reasons.”

    Janet, LadySadie. 😉

  603. But you see Al,, girls in FLDS don’t get choices! Oh they can learn to be a midwife or something of that nature, but FEW if any are really certified nurses, or teachers, but then teachers don’t have to be certified to teach home school or religion.

  604. A claim may be denied or reduced if the claimant or victim has not cooperated with the appropriate law enforcement agencies. ”

    Oops, I think Teresa’s claim would be denied for several reasons.
    ===================================================
    Heh Silly. I think we are talking about Janet.

    “A claim may be denied or reduced if the claimant or victim has not cooperated with the appropriate law enforcement agencies. ”
    ============================================================
    None of us are sure if Janet cooperated or not. In any event, hardly the wording I would expect of anyone who first priority is the needs of the victim. The needs of the prosecution sure; the needs of the victim not so much so.

  605. Oh almost forgot,, the few women who do work outside FLDS,, all their money’s are turned over to their husband.

  606. But you see Al,, girls in FLDS don’t get choices! Oh they can learn to be a midwife or something of that nature, but FEW if any are really certified nurses, or teachers, but then teachers don’t have to be certified to teach home school or religion.
    ============================================
    Hence why I encouraged you to set up a scholarship program and see if you got any takers. That’s usually how it’s done in America.

  607. No al, that’s not how it’s usually done… Usually the person who wants to go to college, has to have a high school diploma, or GED. They they can submit for grants , like pell grants, and apply for scholarships. That’s the way most children get to college, but you can’t go to college if you haven’t even completed 8th grade

  608. Oh yea right Janet, guess I am projecting my hope that charges are filed against Raymond in regards to his sexual assault of Teresa also.

  609. LadySadie, nothing wrong with hoping!

  610. “None of us are sure if Janet cooperated or not. In any event, hardly the wording I would expect of anyone who first priority is the needs of the victim.”

    As has become a pattern with you, you are phrasing things to meet your own rather narrow view of the matter. This is more about preventing FUTURE victims. Most criminal prosecution is about protecting society from the perpetrator. The victims have already suffered and not much can be done to change that. Now Janet DOES have legal rights to sue the person who victimized her, or, like Elissa did, sue the church and leadership for the part they played in her victimization. I’m sure, since you’re so concerned for her “rights” and “support” (a little confusing there, I thought HOOT was supposed to provide for the needs of its indentured servants) you’ll pass the information right along to her. Now that you’re back in the FLDS you’ll have no problem passing the information along.

  611. No al, that’s not how it’s usually done… Usually the person who wants to go to college, has to have a high school diploma, or GED. They they can submit for grants , like pell grants, and apply for scholarships. That’s the way most children get to college, but you can’t go to college if you haven’t even completed 8th grade
    =================================================
    This same old argument?

    “Approaches to education vary widely among fundamentalist groups and families. Some communities build and staff their own private or charter schools with the goal of providing high quality education for their children. Some fundamentalists prefer private education due to what they perceive as secular, liberal and promiscuous influences found in many public schools. Many fundamentalists insist on schooling their children at home, with some using correspondence curricula such as the American School program. Some parents encourage their teens to graduate from high school early and to begin college before their graduating class.”

  612. This is more about preventing FUTURE victims.
    =============================================
    I have to disagree. The needs of the current victim comes first, last, and always over some future victim that may or may not happen.

  613. Your right Al,, “some do” but we know Flds doesn’t. If you would pull your head out of your ass long enough to actually think now and then you would already know this

  614. Al, your cat and mouse games are getting boring!

  615. Your right Al,, “some do” but we know Flds doesn’t.
    ================================================
    Really? This Flds school seems to be doing well by it’s students.

    “The school’s Web site provides more information about its curriculum and its students’ academic performance, but a list of performance on examinations shows students outperforming the area average. I am trying to find reports on the schools performance provided by the province but have not succeeded yet. I can only find grouped information. Perhaps that is because BESS is a private school.

    Palmer has challenged critics to take the same exam and see how they do. Here is a link to the April 2009 provincial exam for English 12. BESS students scored, on average, at the 75 percent level, according to the school. The provincial average was 67 percent.

    Here is the Science 10 exam. In January 2008, according to the Web site, Bess students scored, on average, 79 percent. The provincial average was 65 percent.”

  616. A-li-n, how many students graduated from the 12th grade at that school? In the last 10 years? ZERO, ZIP, NONE

  617. The school where? the one in Boutiful BC? Thats the only website Ive seen..

  618. And we aren’t talking about the Centinnel Group either

  619. I see Al-in is a happy and well fed troll today.

  620. The school where? the one in Boutiful BC? Thats the only website Ive seen..
    ———
    There doesn’t seem to be any way of fact-checking the ‘Academics’ numbers on the Bountiful, BC school website. But the fact that the entire page seems like a ‘neener-neener’ to the apostates leads me to take the test scores listed there very skeptically. Check out this quote from the page:

    “The continual complaint that is raised year after year by opponents of our school (Irene, Jancis, Audrey, Linda, et.al.) is that our students fare poorly on these standardized exams and are not properly educated enough to qualify for post secondary education. The results speak for themselves, and I have yet to have any of the above named ladies take me up on the offer of letting them write the same exams our students do and try to equal our students’ averages.”

  621. Also, the “Staff” page is just…weird. It lists four names of individuals and what they teach (key subjects are music, gym, religion and “forestry”)

    Then there’s just a slew of photographs of unnamed women in pastel dresses, some holding babies. No mention of what their functions are at the school.

  622. Yeah, but you gotta love generalization that if Bountiful FLDS can have a website claiming thier high educational ideals and revealing how clever the children are that the Short Creek children must be all highly educated.

    False Premise 1 — The Bountiful School website has numbers that accurately represent all, or even an appropriate average, of the children of Bountiful. (Without neutral testers and numbers of all students who SHOULD be taking the tests the numbers are suspect.)
    False Premise 2 — It’s okay to judge the children of the FLDS in Short Creek, YFZ, South Dakota, Idaho, and where ever else by the Bountiful numbers.
    False Premise 3 — Everyone here is too stupid to see through his games.

    Of course it’s amazing to me that it is SUCH a sin to generalize that “all FLDS are criminals” but it’s okay to generalize that “all FLDS children are well educated little geniuses”.

  623. seems texas prisons are much different than Arizona prison where warren jeffs is locked up. Raymond Jessop wont be getting phone calls or visits from children in prison. His menu will be what everyone else eats.

  624. “Forestry” is the science of cutting down a tree in one of Winston Blackmore’s logging camps. Boys start majoring in “forestry” at about age 12 and continue until they’re too old to work, apostatize, or get booted out.

  625. I wouldn’t be opposed to giving the money in trust to Janet, providing it is used for her post-secondary education and she maintains at least a B average.

  626. Hence why I encouraged you to set up a scholarship program and see if you got any takers. That’s usually how it’s done in America.
    …………………………..

    No special shclarships are needed, there are hundreds, probably thousands of scholarships available for high school students who want to go to college, and the children at the YFZ ranch are eligible for scholarships and financial aid the same as every other child in America

    They will need:
    Good grades
    Internet access to search for and obtain applications (Federal grants and loans are all processed on line)
    Personal references from people who are not related to them, like teachers and employers
    Writing ability, since most applications require an essay

    Scholarship awards and university acceptance are things that normal parents brag about.

    If any kid now going to school within the YFZ compound has ever been encouraged to apply for scholarships and grants in order to go to college, I would be amazed.

  627. Anon E Mouse,
    If they REALLY want to go to college they can also apply for Pell Grants. I know here in Washingtion you don’t even have to pay for books or tuition for the first four years if you’re low income, if you qualify for Pell Grants. If you’ve got a place to live you could get a Bachelor’s degree at least for next to nothing. And you don’t have to have a high school diploma. A GED will do as they take an assessment test before you enter college and make you take remedial Math and English as needed. No, no one needs to set up any special scholarship programs. If the FLDS women were allowed to want to go to school, they could do so. But an educated woman is the bane of religious polygyny and so the men do their best to keep them dumb, pastel dressed, and pregnant.

  628. Allen Keate’s sexual assault charge —

    The victim in Keate’s case conceived a child with him when she only a couple of months past her 16th birthday.

    The victim was born in January 1990 and her child was conceived around March 2006.

    She was first married to Warren’s brother LeRoy on 7-22-2004 at YFZ when she was 14.

    Warren kicked LeRoy Jeffs out of the FLDS within a year and the girl was reassigned and “married” to Allen Keate on 5-5-2005.

    Reassigned at the age of 15.

    There were two other 14-year-old girls married at YFZ on that date — one to Warren Jeffs and another to Leroy Johnson Steed and the victim in his sexual assault charge.

    Information about the “marriages” of the girls is contained in Warren Jeffs’ dictation of 7-25-2004 — it can be found online at FLDS Texas. It is a long dictation and is quite revealing when it comes to these marriages on that day.

    Dates of birth for the three girls are found in other documents that are also online.

    Yet another girl was also going to be married on that day, but in the dictation Warren Jeffs said he did not think she was ready (by his standards) and that she was the “most physically undeveloped of these young girls.” Warren also talks about her father in that dictation. Her father was kicked out of the FLDS before 2004 came to its end.

    In the dictation Warren Jeffs talks of calling in the three grooms and instructing them on how to “receive and properly guide a young girl” as a wife, even one who may not yet be physically capable of bearing children (it’s in the dictation folks…).

    Also in the dictation is that Warren specifically had his brother LeRoy bring his first wife, Sally (mother to the victim in Raymond Jessop’s conviction), to YFZ just prior to the 7-22-2004 “marriages” and that she was to stay at YFZ with her new 14-year-old sister wife. Sally’s children were to be sent to YFZ immediately following.

    The father of the victim in Keate’s case was indicted in 2005 in Mohave County, Arizona on a charge involving an underage wife of his. He was acquitted on the charge by a Mohave County jury. To my knowledge, there was no DNA evidence in that Arizona case.

    The victim in Keate’s case refused to name the father of her child at her status hearing in the CPS case (something a criminal defense attorney can appreciate), but DNA evidence is sure to be introduced as a search warrant was issued for Keate’s DNA in April 2008.

    That search warrant is online and was revealed early on in this drama.

    Keate has three daughters who are believed to have been married underage in Texas – one of them to Warren Jeffs and the victim in one of his charges, one to Keith Dutson, Jr. (victim in his sexual assault charge) and one to Lehi Barlow Jeffs (aka Allred) (victim in his sexual assault charge).

    Keate is legally married to his first wife (the mother of two of the three daughters married underage) and had several other wives at the time he purported to marry the 15-year-old girl.

    I can’t say that I have seen record of any marriages conducted at YFZ prior to the three on 7-22-2004 involving three 14-year-old girls.

    The state’s star witness in the Keate case?

    Warren Jeffs.

    “I met with the three men first…and gave them instructions on how to receive and properly guide a young girl as their wife, perhaps who isn’t physically prepared for child bearing, to become a father and guide until they are able to have children, but to properly draw them close so they would not look to another man.”

    The relevant reading in the dictation is numbered page 306 of that record.

    I welcome and appreciate all fact checking of the above from those who have read the dictation and looked at the other available documents.

    “I didn’t touch her until she could bear children” is a piss poor defense and one we probably won’t see introduced by any counsel in the charges that involve the 14-year-old brides of 7-22-2004.

  629. Above should read:

    The parts of the 7-25-2004 dictation that are relevant to the “marriages” of the three 14-year-olds on 7-22-2004 begins on page 300 of that record and continues through page 308.

  630. Twist:

    Ugh. Now I vote for castration.

  631. The ad litem for the child of the Keate case told the court that Allen Keate was the father. It was reported in the Standard Times during the Status Hearings just prior to the return of the children.

  632. Thanks, PT.

    Shameful stuff.

  633. Thanks for the info, Twist. I remembered reading about Keate in the dictations but had no idea where.

    LOL @ Ron. Yeah, the details just keep getting worse and you have to wonder if there is any possibility of rehabilitation at all.

  634. Reading about what Raymond can expect in prison. Not going to be an easy 5-10 years for him. http://www.paroletexas.com/articles/GTP2008.pdf

  635. Gotta figure that Keate’s defense will argue that some of the details in his case are too prejudicial and should not be admitted during the guilt phase of his trial.

    Going by Judge Walther’s rulings during Raymond Jessop’s trial, some of the details may not be admissable.

    Even so, I see another case for the state where the facts that will be admitted are sufficient to gain a conviction unless the defense can pull a rabbit out of their hat.

    Randy Wilson of Abilene is the attorney of record for Keate and no doubt he has some of the more high-powered defense counsel assisting him.

    If he is convicted, Keate will be viewed less favorably by a jury than Raymond Jessop due to his age and the fact that three of his daughters were married underage at YFZ.

    Keate was one week shy of his 53rd birthday when he first purported to marry the victim in his case on 5-5-2005.

    That’s close to my present age. The idea of me “marrying” a 15-year-old at my age is clearly abusive, criminal and obscene.

  636. Nor should the next ten years be easy for Jessop, even if he is able to get parole on his first attempt.

    Can’t help but think that defense counsel for the youngest defendants in these cases (Lehi Barlow Jeffs aka Allred and Keith William Dutson, Jr.) have to consider that a plea bargain involving a probated sentence might be the best route for their particular clients.

    Probation terms in Texas are tough on sexual assault charges and there are district court judges who will revoke them upon violation, but it beats a prison sentence and by the time their trials come about (scheduled for April and July 2010), no telling where the trials will be held and what those juries might do regarding any penalty.

  637. Twist

    I highly doubt that probation has ever been or ever will be on the table for these guys.

  638. You’re probably right, Ron.

    The state’s cases are strong on documented facts.

    Still, you know it has to cross the minds of some of the defense attorneys.

  639. This news just in : Evangelist Tony Alamo sentenced to 175 yrs. in prison for sex with children.

  640. Thank GOD for that!!

  641. Buh-bye, Tony Alamo.

  642. Thank God for taht

  643. Texastwist or Deputy,
    Was Maggie Jessop one of Leroy’s wives? In the Bishop’s record her chidren’s names are recorded under Wendell Nielsen’s househod, but Maggie’s name is not listed. I believe at some point (according to Warren’s records) she was at a house of hiding (or place or refuge) in a different state.

  644. It appears that religious child abusers are not having a very good week…. which makes me very happy

  645. TEXARKANA — Evangelist Tony Alamo was sentenced today to the maximum 175 years in prison for taking underage girls in his church across state lines for sex and making them his “brides.”

    The sentence imposed by U.S. District Judge Harry Barnes is tantamount to a life prison term. Alamo, 75, would have to serve approximately 85 percent of his term before becoming eligible for release from prison.

    Alamo, the leader of Tony Alamo Christian Ministries, has been in federal custody since he was arrested shortly after a raid on his compound south of Texarkana last year.

    As he was led out of the courthouse and back to jail late this morning, Alamo — noticeably thinner and less animated than he was during his trial — said to reporters that he was falsely accused.

    A group of residents from Fouke, where Alamo’s church is located, along with a group called Bikers Against Child Abuse, cheered at news of the sentence.

    The sentence came after the judge heard testimony from three young women who said they were turned over to Alamo for sex when they were children. They told of the harm Alamo did to them and their families. Prosecutors said Alamo’s victims were as young as 8.

    Also testifying were a member of Alamo’s church and a doctor who talked about Alamo’s health condition. The defense had asked for leniency because of Alamo’s declining health.

    Barnes said Alamo used his role as pastor and father figure to control the young girls.

  646. The problem with defendants like Bernie Madoff and Tony Alamo is that their age means their life sentences aren’t really commensurate with their crimes.

  647. Jeffs does exactly the same thing as Alamo does,, hope he gets life in prison!

  648. Yes, carolfromcarolina, Maggie Jessop was one of LeRoy Jeffs’ wives and some of her children (not all, I believe — I think she had one to four other sons) were listed in Nielsen’s household as his children at YFZ, but Maggie was not listed as one of his wives either at YFZ or listed as elsewhere.

    According to some of the WSJ dictations, there have been “issues” with some of Nielsen’s wives that WSJ counseled him to deal with.

    From what I can tell, Maggie Jessop was not at YFZ when events took place in early April 2008.

    Where she was, I do not know, but my best guess was somewhere off doing what she wanted to do.

    Maggie Jessop exhibits more freedom of spirit that any other FLDS woman I have had the chance to observe.

    Possibly her sons who weren’t at YFZ were with their real father or off working somewhere.

  649. And good eye, carolfromcarolina.

  650. Maggie said in an interview (Larry King, I think) that she was not at the ranch when the raid occurred because she was in another city getting her driver’s license renewed (or something similar).She said she hurried to be with her children, but was not allowed to see them because of not having been on ranch property during the raid. An interview earlier this year did show that she is at the ranch now.

  651. Of course it’s amazing to me that it is SUCH a sin to generalize that “all FLDS are criminals” but it’s okay to generalize that “all FLDS children are well educated little geniuses”.
    ==================================================
    You are misinterpreting the thrust of my argument Rebeckah. The generalization was that the children of folks practicing the FLDS faith have, at best, an 8th grade education with very few exceptions. My counter argument was Whoa, whoa, whoa! Here is a group of students that surpasses that level by a generous amount.

  652. Thanks, carol.

    I’d love to see Maggie and a few others (like Edson Jessop and Zavenda) return to LKL for some hardball questions since we know more know than we knew then, but Larry King is a softball pitcher.

    Maggie’s explanation as to why she wasn’t there has a weak feel to me since she was not on the 2007 bishop’s list.

    Possible, though, that if it was an “issue” that prevented her from being at YFZ in 2007 that it was resolved by April 2008 and she was living there with her youngest children and as a wife of Wendell Nielsen.

  653. “know more now”, not “know more know”

  654. i think maggie has issues and might have been at a house in hiding when the bishop’s list was takne in 2007. her kids could have been left behind for another wife of nielsen’s to tend to. one of the daughters was claimed by someone else on the order of severance.

  655. Alin, you are ignoring the facts you want to ignore and focusing on those you like. In that same area in Bountiful, the teacher’s union has posted reports and warnings about the Bountiful school. The main problem? The dropout rate is astounding, especially among girls. Very few children get passed 8th grade. So if, in Bountiful, they pick 15 very smart young males and train them and then publish THEIR scores, it does not represent the children who are already married and pregnant or already working in a lumber mill. Also, some subjects are not taught at all and some were taught in abridged textbooks. So, do you want to believe the professional teachers, or do you want to believe the people who are trying to promote their own school so they can continue to get government funds?????

  656. Umm Betty you do know don’t you that they have professional teachers at Bess?

    Also, some subjects are not taught at all and some were taught in abridged textbooks.
    =========================================================
    /shrug lets look at some of their curriculum.

    “Here is more on that: In 2004, British Columbia altered the requirements for students with the motivation to graduate up to a year early. To facilitate this, and in an effort to encourage students to ’stick it out,’ our staff has volunteered to teach night classes and weekends in order to ensure the graduation requirements have been met. We have offered Biology 12, English 12, Digital Photography 12, Socials 11, Child Development 11, Tailoring, etc. This has put a lot of strain on teachers as one could understand.”

    Btw, show me the drop out rate of both the province of BC and Bess so I can compare.

  657. Edson Porter Jessop, Jr. was the intended husband for the fourth girl on 7-22-2004.

    The girl’s father is Allen Woodruff (Allen W.) Steed. She probably has a new father now and may be married. I checked the court documents I have collected from the CPS cases and I see no sign of her at YFZ in April 2008 under any name variation I could think of.

    Her mother is Margaret “Maggie” Allred Steed (Timpson) aka Jessop, the daughter of Rulon Jeffs’ sister Leona and Rulon Clark Allred, so it is unlikely that the girl is not still in the FLDS.

    I’d love to see someone ask that nice Eddie Jessop if he would have married the underage girl had WSJ not changed his mind. I suspect that he would have done what his prophet told him to do.

    This is an example of a person’s mind changing about something because of new information.

    I’ve wanted to believe that Eddie Jessop is truly a good person who knows at his core that these underage marriages are wrong and that perhaps he could be among some new leadership in the FLDS who would see to it that they clean up their act and keep it clean when it comes to the underage girls.

    My mind has changed and I have no sense of his character at all after discovering that he was an intended groom for an underage girl.

    The girl was born in March 1991 — she was 13 on 7-22-2004 when WSJ was thinking about having her marry Eddie Jessop.

    Yo, Warren Jeffs.

    It is normal for 13-year-olds to not be fully developed physically, you disgusting creep.

    Would Eddie Jessop have married her or would he have had the balls to defy his prophet?

    Trot him and Zavenda out for the cameras again, would ya Willie?

    No?

    I didn’t think so.

  658. You’ve GOT to be kidding, right? Tailoring? Child Development? THAT will help the girls have an independent life. NOT.

    Ooooo, someone bought a digital camera and is teaching the kids how to use it. Whoopee! How about math, engineering, chemistry, history, world lit, current events, computer skills?

    You’re totally full of it.

  659. twist – i’ve never had any illusions about eddie. he left some of zevanda’s kids and other wives kids behind in the twin cities and brought only those kids in the family who wsj deemed worthy. to me that’s child abuse also.

  660. Agree that abandoning children in that manner is also abusive.

    I didn’t realize until I read that batch of dictations that Eddie Jessop was at YFZ as early as he was. Because of the way his 2007 bishop’s list was in a different format and separate from the others I assumed he hadn’t been there that long.

    Instead, he was there early setting up the furniture shop and making furniture.

    I was hoping for someone (anyone) who is respected within the FLDS to have an understanding of the moral depravity in what Warren Jeffs was orchestrating and doing himself.

    Not sure anymore such a person exists.

    It’s one thing to say “we’ll stop” because the legal consequences have now exceeded the risk.

    It’s another to say “we’ll stop” because it is inherently wrong.

  661. warren could have a nocturnal emission tonight that assigns more 12, 13 or 14 year olds to marry and those at the ranch will go along with it unquestioningly.

  662. I don’t think it will stop TexasTwist at all. I think they will just haul off underage girls in the middle of the night, like they have always done, and marry them in a another state. NOT one of them is contrite about anything

  663. Okay, this was in the arrests records for yesterday

    BARLOW, LINDA RAE
    Birth Date: 03/31/54
    Address : 265 N RICHARD RD, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    07:00:00 11/12/09 Thayer Steven WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    COMMITMENT COMMITMENT-COURT ORDE NA MOJP 0.00 [No Payments Made]

    anyone know her?

  664. She looks old and dresses in a pastel FLDS uniform.

    You can see her mug shot here – about 1/2 way down.

    https://news.washeriff.net/bookings/

  665. Deputy, now I see that you had posted her DOB. She is only 55 years old. She has not aged well! Her mug shot looks like an old woman.

  666. deputydog1,

    I believe her husband is a son of one of the Barlow Boys. Barlow is her legal married name.

  667. what was her maiden name?

  668. It seems sad that so many women in Flds are committed to institutions 😦

  669. My Lord, grant Linda Rae complete healing, peace, freedom and a personal knowledge of and relationship with you. Pray bind the spirits which torment, blind and blind her, and shoot right through them with a Road-to-Damascus experience. I ask this in the name of your son Jesus, Amen.

  670. Just when I thought I’d heard (read) it all. Tonight I was reading the June-July 2004 dictations and read something I had missed. When WSJ kicked Art Barlow out we know that WSJ took Esther Jessop Barlow as his wife. Actually, that’s not quite the story. He married her by proxy for time only, actually sealing Esther to his father Rulon for time and eternity. Rulon had been dead two years! Yep, Warren married Esther to his dead father.

    Folks, we couldn’t have made this stuff up if we’d tried.

  671. So Texastwist, According to Warren’s dictations, Warren thought about asking Edson Jesso to marry an underage girl then ruled against it and Edson Jessop most likely wasn’t even aware of this.
    Yet, this is enough to judge EJessop and conclude he is a no good diry molester based only on Warren’s personal reflections?
    Gosh the more I read these hysterical comments, the more I support the FLDS. Reading these posts makes me wonder what kind of people spend all their time obsesssing over the personal lives of people whom they never met.

  672. Same lady was arrested this summer. She must not have decided to work with the court.

    Of course at her age, generally over child bearing age, that means no more love from dad, she is relegated to being just a plain slave and no longer just a sex slave.

  673. “Reading these posts makes me wonder what kind of people spend all their time obsesssing over the personal lives of people whom they never met.”

    The kind that care about their fellow human beings, living in this land of opportunity, being given opportunities and NOT being shackled as children into a situation that an adult would find difficult. The kind who care about and worry about children being denied food, clothing, a loving mother and father’s attention, a chance to grow up before taking on adult responsibilities. The kind who care about containing vicious sadists like Warren Jeffs — the worst kind because he masked his sadism behind a quiet voice and pious expression. The kind who look calmly and rationally at the laws of this land and the actions of a few men who think God gave them a free pass to do anything they like. The kind who aren’t giving up OUR home just because some nutjob claimed it was his promised land. That kind of people, Duane. The kind you obviously can’t understand with your stunted emotional growth.

  674. Well ole dog duane. I don’t see anyplace where TT called EPJ a no good child child molester. Just another big lie from the
    deci skinwalker.

  675. “…and Edson Jessop most likely wasn’t even aware of this.”

    I see you didn’t read the dictation.

    Why does that not surprise me.

  676. PT,

    Jones was the maiden name.

  677. Nice hopscotch over the 14-year-olds, Duane.

    Another non-surprise.

  678. How is Winston Blackmore’s virtual “school” in Canada proof that the FLDS children in TX are getting any kind of education?

  679. This messeage is for the FLDS view site ie Pliggy

    ATTN: FLDS POLYGAMISTS

    Do you people realize that your religion was interpreted by a perverted womanizer? This is how polygamy came about, read your history. Mormonism is less than 200 years old and your indoctrination sound more bizarre by the year. Your “savior” was run out of several states for being an oversexed pervert. Joe Smith was intelligent enough to create an illusion that his interpretation of the bible was the correct one thus becoming a self made profit. Jesus gave out bread, Joe Smith passed out fruitcake. This religion has created nothing but predators from the teachings of this man. The bible I know is over 2000 years old. I suggest you read it, than you can write your own book.

    Miss Ura Sieko

    Thank You for letting me post my message here. Hopefully Mr. Pliggy, who dosen’t allow comments on his “truthful” site, would consider allowing comments. Unless he’s afraid of the Truth.

  680. Warren thought about asking Edson Jesso to marry an underage girl then ruled against it and Edson Jessop most likely wasn’t even aware of this.
    Yet, this is enough to judge EJessop and conclude he is a no good diry molester based only on Warren’s personal reflections?

    ————————————–

    duane – i don’t know about the dirty molester part, but he’s an sob of a dad for leaving part of his wives’ kids behind in hildale when he was told to bring zavanda and THEIR 4 children and move to the ranch. some of those kids were really young too. what’s the difference between pulling them away from their parents and pulling the YFZ kids away? NONE. The kids of the FLDS are shuffled around like cattle depending on the current mood of one man who appears from this dictations to be in a constant state of pissy PMS!!!

  681. I have to laugh whenever one of the regulars on this whole FLDS new topic accuses other regulars of being crazy on the grounds that they “spend all their time” on it. Pot calling the kettle blackie? Yes, I think so. And to say that people spend all their time on it is pretty silly. You can comment while in a work meeting through your blackberry, or comment while you are on hold waiting to talk to the pediatric nurse on the phone. Maintaining a presence here doesn’t take “all your time”.

  682. Dear Ura Seiko,

    Although I agree with you, that kind of talk is not going to get through to Pliggy and his ilk. He will just read that you are disrespecting Joseph Smith and conclude that you are bigoted without any basis. He has some how managed to avoid any analysis of the real history of the early LDS religion.

  683. Betty, I’m talking about dwelling on and making judgements about individual flds members personal lives. All this talk of abuse because they left family members in short creek….maybe they didn’t want to come for any number of reasons…making their personal business your business.

  684. Yes, duane, a mother and father should leave their 6, 7, 9 year old children in another state because that 6, 7, 9 year old child “didn’t want to come for any number of reasons”. Got any more “excuses” you want to add so that your FLDS hero’s can rape more little girls?

  685. You know, duane, after they’ve been interviewed on TV, talking about, even lying about their family, it’s not all that personal anymore.

  686. Who the heck does lying dog duane think he is to talk about dwelling on and making judgements? He has judged his flds heros as well as those who are critical of them. He has judged and dwelt on posters based on their posts. Talk about a cast iron pan calling a stainless steel kettle black. Why aren’t the flds administrators moderating his posts into not appearing here??

  687. I must say that my posts don’t last long on Medvecky’s site. LOL.

  688. I can’t believe you still post there, Betty. The man doesn’t just delete posts, he adds things to them! He has NO ethics at all — in fact I’m astonished he still has a blog. You’d really think the server would have problems with a blog administrator doing such a thing.

  689. He is his own provider, so no rules. I post there very rarely.

  690. I originally thought BillM’s editing of certain posters was unethical and basically a cheap shot at the bigots. Thinking about it now, he doesn’t want certain people posting on his blog and given that it is easy to get around “blocking”….

    ADMIN EDIT: No, its not easy to get around blocking, duane, and due to the fact you havent come up with a new idea in a year (as pointed out to me in an email) you are hereby banned from this site until further notice.

    Perhaps you will study enough and come to realize these FLDS children whom are married underage and traded like baseball cards are indeed, victims.

  691. I am shocked that ole dog deci duane once thought something (bile m’s rewriting other people’s posts) was unethical. Not child marriage, not sex with 14 yr olds, not reassigning children to a new father, everything goes for the ole dog. I have never and will never post on bile m’s blog. I read his stuff once and had to take a bath and shampoo my hair to feel clean again. Yet the ole deci dog feels at home there and supports activities that are considered unethical and dishonest by all of decent society. Guess what part of society bile m and the ole skinwalker dog duane belong to?? I find it rather sad that duane is allowed to post his carp here.

  692. Duane, has the administrator here or has Blues ever edited your post to change your words? No. Don’t accuse them of playing dirty that way. You’re allowed to post your drivel unedited.

  693. You’re allowed to post your drivel unedited.

    Plus the drivel of your numerous sock puppets.

  694. duane don’t you want to post anything about Kindred Spirits really wish they could be ‘sex offenders’ like Raymond and that’s our truer hidden motive, BileM let’s you post your lies and your in the same category as him. BileM not only re-edits or adds his own sentences, he awaits one of his posters angry replies and then joins them on the attack of something he wrote with his re-edit. Talk about playing his posters for total suckers. BileM is using his own loyal listeners to proclaim his criminal agenda. He is more than willing to play it fast and lose with the truth and decency which is what got him his arrest and conviction in the first place. Don’t insult our intelligence by trying to compare Texasbluesman to a convicted felon like the infamous William James Medvecky.

    Bigots like duane and BileM support one another and are the ‘True Believer’s’ and hatemongering supporters of sex offenders.

  695. Nah, deleting a post or blocking a person is not playing dirty. Editing their posts IS playing dirty. But this is a man who makes up statistics and credits an agency which no longer exists, so you should be fairly used to him playing dirty. And, amazing! You see unethical behavior and your response is to rationalize it. I am so not surprised.

  696. duane probably worships at the throne of mudpuppy.

  697. duane tries his damnedest to cross-talk his dead birds and road kill comments from BileM’s blog onto our blog to incite some exchange. He’s now firmly a defender of FLDS convicted sex offenders and is quite comfortable with his new felony friends and aspires to be their willing accomplice or accessory.

    Mudpuppy doesn’t have a throne beyond his toilet seat.

  698. “Thinking about it now, he doesn’t want certain people posting on his blog and given that it is easy to get around “blocking”, his tactics have proven effective in ridding certain bloggers.”

    Riiighhht. That’s the ticket. He banned Blues and Blues used a sock puppet to go there and blog. Sure, I believe that. (not)

    “Is he playing dirty?”

    He’s lying, Duane. He’s also slandering people with those lies. It goes far beyond “playing dirty”.

    “I would say yes, but so does this administrator and Bluesy.”

    No, all FLDS Texas and Blues do is moderate their boards. They will ban posters, moderate posters, remove offensive words or phrases or remove offensive posts. They do NOT add slanderous, evil words to other people. That level of vileness is reserved for your good friend Bill Medvecky. But they do say birds of a feather flock together.

    “Ripping on “cupcake”, relishing on Mindy Montford’s arrest, etc…..given this, BillM’s tactis are perfectly acceptable.”

    Ripping on Carolyn, relishing the lies and slander of Malonis’ ex-husband (I’m assuming lies and slander because you and your friends have made it perfectly clear that anything said in a divorce is a lie), your attempts to form hateful sockpuppets to stir up vile talk about the FLDS, given that FLDS banning you would be perfectly acceptable. Personally, I’m tired of talking to a person who lies every time he tries to communicate. Stay on Bill’s blog — no one is interested in your deceit and excuses here. Better yet, go do your homework.

  699. You’d really think the server would have problems with a blog administrator doing such a thing.
    ………………………………….

    I don’t know about Medvecky’s server, but Blogspot (Google) allows people to say/do anything they want on their blogs, it takes a court order to shut them down.

  700. “Reading these posts makes me wonder what kind of people spend all their time obsesssing over the personal lives of people whom they never met.”

    …………………………………

    The same kind of people who made sure that the Lafferty brothers went to prison for following THEIR “religious convictions.”

  701. Anon E Mouse, not being from Utah, I had never heard of the Lafferty brothers, so of course I googled them. Here is something Dan Lafferty said in prison about 20 years after he murdered his sister-in-law and niece.

    “Dan doesn’t think he will die in prison; he believes the walls will crumble and he will emerge as the biblical prophet Elijah, announcing the second coming of Christ.”

    Hmmmm sound like another “prophet” we know?

  702. didn’t warren claim that the flds were going to be lifted from a mountaintop or something around 1999/2000 and when it didn’t happen he said they weren’t worthy enough? I’m paraphrasing here, trying to remember the incident.

  703. Please Continue on Open Discussion #17 – ADMIN

  704. You are in point of fact a excellent webmaster. The web site loading velocity is amazing. It sort of feels that you are doing any distinctive trick. Moreover, The contents are masterwork. you have done a excellent task in this topic!

Comments are closed.

 
%d bloggers like this: