Open Discussion #15

Continued from Discussion #14

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on October 9, 2009.

646 Responses to “Open Discussion #15”

  1. Texastwist gave us this list on Discussion 14 – Pasted here to kick off this new Discussion Thread:

    Moved from:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/open-discussion-14

    (Thanks Twist!)

    ————–

    Spouses of:

    1. bianabel barlow – 5 kids with last name jeffs

    Lyle Jeffs

    2. dora mae barlow – 6 kids with last names allred and/or barlow

    Dora Mae Steed Barlow aka Allred. Married to Edmund Lorin Barlow aka Allred.

    3. emily gail crossfield blackmore – 1 child a blackmore

    Canadian. Married to Brandon Blackmore. Parents of the only Canadian minor determined to be at YFZ and taken by CPS. The daughter was 17 at the time.

    4. esther barlow – 4 kids one named jeffs and the others jessop

    Not positive about this one. Believe she is currently married to WSJ. Pretty woman.

    5. evelyn allred – 1 son named allred

    Married to Thomas James Cox.

    6. grace harker jeffs – 4 kids last named jeffs

    Not certain.

    7. ilene jeffs – 3 kids last named rohbock

    Was married to Ron Rohbock. Sister of WSJ. Reassigned to Wendell Nielsen.

    8. karen johnson – 7 kids last named johnson

    Was possibly married to Carl Johnson. Uncertain about much else.

    9. leona steed – 5 kids last named johnson

    Uncertain.

    10. linda jeffs musser – 1 son named musser

    Legally married and legally divorced from Amos Milton Musser. Sister of WSJ. Had only one minor child at YFZ in April 2008. Some of the documents connect the son to Wendell Nielsen so possibly she was reassigned to him. Is the mother of the adult daughter who was in a Lubbock hospital for dialysis treatment in April 2008. She has several adult children and I believe one of them is the Wendell Musser who was one of WSJ’s houses of hiding caretakers picked up on a DWI in Colorado who subsequently lost his wife and child. I think Linda Jeffs Musser is also the mother of the “Ryan” Musser who married Elissa Walls’ sister Rebecca after Rulon Jeffs died.

    11. linda keate – 2 kids last named keate

    Married to Leland Keate.

    12. loretta jessop – 1 son named jeffs

    See comment above.

    13. lydia ann johnson – 2 kids named johnson

    Was married to Frank Tilton Johnson. Reassigned to Merril Jessop.

    14. mable a. johnson – 1 son named jeffs

    I also have her name as Mabel Annette Jessop. Don’t know who her husband is.

    15. martha barlow – 4 kids named barlow

    Martha Mae Hammon. Was married to Nephi Barlow. Reassigned to Joseph Steed.

    16. namcy barlow – 4 kids named barlow

    Nancy Johnson. Married to Donald Robert “Bob” Barlow.

    17. nancy jane black dockstader – 3 kids named dockstader

    Married to James F. Dockstader.

    18. neola stubbs jessop – 3 girls named jessop

    Unknown.

    19. patricia ann barlow – 2 daughters named barlow

    Married to Donald Robert “Bob” Barlow.

    20. pauline barlow jeffs – 6 kids named jeffs

    Married to Lyle Jeffs.

    21. rebecca steed – 10 kids named steed

    Legal wife of Marion Steed.

    22. sandra jeffs – daughter named nielsen

    Married to Wendell Nielsen. Possibly a daughter of LeRoy and Sally Jeffs.

    23. sandra steed jeffs = son named jeffs

    Unknown.

    24. sarah steed – 6 kids named steed

    Legal wife of David Woodward Steed

    —– Updated

    Bad boy Raymond Jessop is not Barbara’s son. His mother is Ruth.

  2. TEXASTWIST! wooo hoooo!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE email me at lt289 at yahoo dot com as soon as you can!

  3. Texas twist said on 14:

    Submitted on 2009/10/09 at 5:15am

    ——–

    A few answers to some questions.

    The Loretta Jessop Jeffs who has the child Mahroni is a daughter of Merril Jessop and either his wife Faunita or Ruth. She was the first of Merril’s daughters to marry Rulon Jeffs. Married him in 1990 or 1991. My information says she refused to marry WSJ after Rulon’s death and married his brother Nephi Jeffs.

    Not the WSJ child bride Loretta who, as stated earlier, is Merril’s granddaughter and is Loretta Jane Barlow, daughter of Merril and Ruth’s daughter Rebecca who married Rulon Barlow.

    I have no information that definitively states child bride Loretta Barlow Jeffs has a child or not. I lean toward not. I’m repeating myself from the past from comments elsewhere and earlier that claim as fact she does have a child. I’ve seen nothing that proves such a claim.

    Dianabel Barlow is married to Lyle Jeffs. Lyle is a full brother to WSJ.

  4. I give texastwist a wooo-hoooo too!!
    Great to see ya onboard again!!!!!

  5. FLDS Texas, everytime you do this, it is a little difficult finding the previous open discussion if someone hasn’t posted a recent comment there. And the previous one is not shown in the archives. Can you create a link to the previous one when you do this?

  6. so is mahroni jeffs the son of nephi? was Rulon fathering children in 1990-1991?

  7. I can picture a parent leaving a child with the grandparents for a short time and then never coming back. That would be abandonment without being kidnapping.
    =============================================
    Actually Betty I agree with you. Under the ways our bureacracies work the grandparents would have to claim abandonment so that they can get legal guardianship of the children. They need legal guardianship to meet the children’s educational and medical needs.

    If educational and medical requirements can be less formally, ie a private educational setting and a nearby country doctor, then terming it abandonment would be a private matter between the grandparents and their own biological children.

  8. Cement

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/open-discussion-14/#comment-12575

    When the Discussion are updated, the older discussion goes back to the date it was started.

    Posting links from both locations is a good idea.

  9. Are all the open discussion links available in the archives?

  10. Texas Twist,
    I put this message in Discussion 14, but you might not see it so I am repeating it. I am very glad to see you back. I always looked for your comments in SLT because you had a lot of factual content to contribute. Thanks for coming back

  11. 3. emily gail crossfield blackmore – 1 child a blackmore
    Canadian. Married to Brandon Blackmore. Parents of the only Canadian minor determined to be at YFZ and taken by CPS. The daughter was 17 at the time.

    _____________________

    The daughter was Mildred Marlene Blackmore (goes by Marlene). She was married to Warren Jeffs, and so was her sister Lana. She was subpoenaed for the hearing where CPS brought out the pictures of Merrianne but did not have to testify. She turned 18 shortly after the children were released back to their “parents”.

  12. Sandra Jeffs married to Wendell Nielson is Warren’s daughter. Annette is her mother.

    FLDS TEXAS said this on October 9, 2009 at 8:42 AM

    Thanks! That has bugged me since the beginning. Loretta

  13. so is mahroni jeffs the son of nephi? was Rulon fathering children in 1990-1991?

    proudtexan said this on October 9, 2009 at 9:45 AM

    Nephi. Mahroni Jeffs born October, 2006.

    No idea when Rolan’s seed literally went south.

  14. The daughter was Mildred Marlene Blackmore (goes by Marlene). She was married to Warren Jeffs, and so was her sister Lana. She was subpoenaed for the hearing where CPS brought out the pictures of Merrianne but did not have to testify. She turned 18 shortly after the children were released back to their “parents”.

    FLDS TEXAS said this on October 9, 2009 at 12:21 PM

    Cool. That answers a question I had.

  15. Rulon’s seed.

    Sheesh.

  16. Warren Jeffs was apprehended as a federal fugitive in August 2006.

    Mildred Marlene Blackmore was born in September 1990 so Warren Jeffs could have purported to marry her when she was 15 at the oldest.

    “Visiting her grandmother.”

    Snort.

  17. Bringing more answers shortly.

  18. snort indeed

  19. woo hoo. you rock

  20. Twister, welcome back and great to read your posts, again. =0)

  21. Warren Jeffs was apprehended as a federal fugitive in August 2006.
    Mildred Marlene Blackmore was born in September 1990 so Warren Jeffs could have purported to marry her when she was 15 at the oldest.
    “Visiting her grandmother.”

    Snort.

    texastwist said this on October 9, 2009 at 12:44 PM

    She was married to Warren March 1, 2004

  22. 9. leona steed – 5 kids last named johnson
    Uncertain.

    —————

    Leona Steed Johnson Married to Allen Woodruff Steed, Widow of Wilford Woodruff Steed, daughter of Sarah Elizabeth Barlow and Leroy Sunderland Johnson.

    The children are Wilford’s children I believe

  23. She was married to Warren March 1, 2004

    FLDS TEXAS said this on October 9, 2009 at 1:25 PM

    13

    “They were only visiting grandparents.”

    “BAPTIST BUSES! OMG!! OMG!!”

    “Deer do it.”

    “But you can be branded a sex offender in Texas for merely peeing in an alley nowhere near a school.”

    “Consenting adults! Consenting adults!”

  24. Esther Jessop Barlow is a daughter of Merrill Jessop (not sure who her mother is but probably either Faunita or Ruth). She was married to Arthur Barlow. When Warren kicked Arthur out she was reassigned back to her father’s household. Sometime later WSJ married her (this is in some of Warren’s dictations/record). When she was interviewed on Larry King Live right after the children were taken, I am almost sure she said she had five children that had been taken.

    I don’t have any first hand knoweldge of course; I’ve just been following this story since the “raid”. Thanks for this website – I’ve been lurking (hate that word – it sounds so sinister!) since the beginning, but have never posted.

  25. Rattle / Cement et al

    A quick way to find an older post or Discussion is use the “search” box – kinda hidden but right at the top just under Warrens mouth in the pic.

    type: Discussion

    All threads with that name in it should show up.

  26. carolfromcarolina, we’re equally glad to have you here!

    thanks, fldstexas.

  27. Glad to have ya carolfromcarolina–I sorta “lurk” too…post on occasion…

  28. Princess Ester Jessop Jeffs mother is Ruth.
    Sister to Raymond, Ernest, James Jerry and Warren’s darling Naomie.

    Pitty Pat

  29. Twist, glad to see you! And CarolfromCarolina, welcome!

    Not to throw anyone off trail, but I have been arm wrestling with Brooke, she posted on her blog and also an article called

    “FLDS: Oversight of polygamous community schools nears end”

    http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_13506889

    The problem is, the FLDS are responsible for all the problems, and none of the solutions.

    But the headline implies they are the education heros of the day. HEH!

    GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

    Full blown spin, right there, in case you were still wondering.

    She even emailed me 4 times in a lame attempt to cover it up, digging herself deeper each time.

  30. Yes, the non flds people have been running that school for some time. The CP group uses it as well as other non flds people in the area. Brooke will spin things so far the fall over due to imbalance.

  31. Welcome back TexasTwist, we have missed you!!! Thought you had been gone so long, we would have to send a search party out after you, lol 🙂

  32. I really think it’s probable that she does not title the articles, an editor does.

  33. Esther Jessop was married to Warren Steed Jeffs on March 28, 2006 at the YFZ Ranch

  34. Dang warren was marrying people right and left in 2006!!

  35. Do we know Ester’s age?

  36. 18. neola stubbs jessop – 3 girls named jessop
    Unknown.

    ————-

    Neola Stubbs Jessop is married to Nathan Carter Jessop (same Nathan Carter Jessop who is sired a child with underage Teresa Jo Steed).

    One of her daughters is Natalia Jessop and was married at age 16 to Keith Dutson Sr. on December 18, 2005 at the YFZ Ranch. He was approx 44 years old at the time.

  37. Esther Jessop is approximately 36-37 years old

  38. so if neola is the mother of a 16 year old in 2005 and is also the mother of 3 girls born in 2000, 2003 and 2005, how many other kids do she and nathan have?

  39. seems like a scrambled mess to me

  40. I totally agree–deputydog–it makes my head spin…

    Isn’t it great texastwist is back?

  41. Yes!! Wonderful

  42. Many many years ago when I was twenty three,
    I got married to a widow who was pretty as could be.
    This widow had a grown-up daughter
    Who had hair of red.
    My father fell in love with her,
    And soon the two were wed.

    [chorus]

    This made my dad my son-in-law
    And changed my very life.
    My daughter was my mother,
    For she was my father’s wife.

    [chorus]

    To complicate the matters worse,
    Although it brought me joy,
    I soon became the father
    Of a bouncing baby boy.
    My little baby then became
    A brother-in-law to dad.
    And so became my uncle,
    Though it made me mad.

    For if he was my uncle,
    Then that also made him brother
    To the widow’s grown-up daughter
    Who, of course, was my step-mother.
    Father’s wife then had a son,
    Who kept them on the run.
    And he became my grandson,
    For he was my daughter’s son.
    My wife is now my mother’s mother
    And it makes me blue.
    Because, although she is my wife,
    She’s my grandmother too.
    If my wife is my grandmother,
    Then I am her grandchild.
    And every time I think of it,
    It simply drives me wild.
    For now I have become
    The strangest case you ever saw.
    As the husband of my grandmother,
    I am my own grandpa!

    CHORUS:

    I’m my own gran’pa! I’m my own gran’pa!
    It sounds funny I know, but it really is so I’m my own gran’pa

  43. I wonder what the FLDS version is? “I’ve Married All My Grandma’s”?

  44. Dang warren was marrying people right and left in 2006!!
    ===================
    Did you mean to himself, or performing a lot?

  45. HAHAHAHAHHA

  46. Sounds like he was doing both Cement! 😀

  47. Thanks, y’all.

    Lots to add to my spreadsheet.

  48. brrrr…a little chilly at Friday Night Lights tonight–but..we won!!!!!!!!!

  49. Man, I gotta let the folks at Wondercafe know what kind of s*** goes down in the hardcore eccentric world of utter cult abuse world. this is Craaaaaaazy s***!

  50. I’ve got all several kids listed as Merril’s, but no clue who there mother is, hopefully y’all can help.

    Joseph Newel
    William Sunderland
    Jennifer
    Carla
    Natalia
    Esther

  51. For Warren and Annette I have:

    Maryanne
    Lenora
    Mosiah
    Teresa
    Helman Barlow
    Abraham Barlow
    Hannah
    Susan
    William Barlow

    Am I missing any? There’s a big gap between Maryanne and Lenora where there could be more kids.

  52. For Warren and Barbara I have:

    Melanie
    Rachel
    Levi Barlow
    Ammon
    Josephine
    Jacob
    Joseph Barlow
    Amber

    Am I missing any here?

  53. Carolfromcarolina seems lurkers run from 3 to 4 for every poster, so don’t feel unique and your comments are welcomed. When the trials begin everyone will form more opinions, insights and perspectives and they’re worth expressing. This story is a human interest story of a national scale. The documentation, evidence and investigations archived here are intended for everyone to be informed and hold a viewpoint based upon what they individually feel about the facts and information. Feel free to post and express your views.

  54. And you thought ripping off a man’s family was bad?

    HA just wait! This is breaking news even Brooke didn’t know about!

    How about the leader damning your entire town where you were raised and all your children were born, and saying its rejected by God, and anyone who still lives there is rejected by God too?

    AND THEN, after selling millions of dollars of YOUR TRUST’S Real Estate, said “rejecter prophet” takes the millions, plus the million a month or so he got in tithes from you, to buy a property that – is now a different Church and Trust?

    Thereby ripping of all the UEP beneficiaries and assorted church members who have contributed? And tried to word the new Trust to shield it from restoring a thieved people?

    The new name, (2nd, or 3rd or is it the 4th try?)

    for Warrens new Church and Trust, with Jimmy Jessop as el Presidente’, is brought to you, as:

    TEXAS STAKE OF ZION
    CHURCH AND TRUST

    aka

    “TSOZCAT”

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/10/09/musical-trusts-aka-hide-the-ranch/#comment-12608

  55. Rebeckah –

    That post was made by a person previously banned. The post was removed – he is still banned. (onthstreet)

    – ADMIN

  56. I take it onthestreet was the one who mistook a Trojan horse virus for a pack of Trojans and thus wanted my computer to be celibate?

    Betty

  57. I’ve got all several kids listed as Merril’s, but no clue who there mother is, hopefully y’all can help.

    Joseph Newel-RUTH
    William Sunderland deceased- RUTH
    Jennifer
    Carla
    Natalia
    Esther-RUTH

    ProudTexan
    Could not locate the other’s mothers.

    Piddy Pat

  58. Thanks Piddy Pat. I figured they were Ruth’s, but couldn’t be certain.

  59. Twist! How awesome to see you here! We’ve missed you. It sounds like ProudTexan and you should get together for coffee. Just be sure to get the big table in the corner so you can unfold your charts.

    I’ve been waiting for a year and a half to see this magnum opus of yours, since I never can follow genealogy in dribs and drabs.

    DeputyDog has a treasure trove of data from public records of an entirely different sort. How her research might relate to your research, I can’t say, but I think they might inform each other.

    CarolfromCarolina, glad you stopped lurking and started posting.

  60. hey twist, you probably have much more than me, but i’m willing to share if you are. email me at proudtexan (@) gmail.com if you want to visit about it.

  61. oops, i forgot the 09. its proudtexan09 (@) gmail.com

  62. Do we know Ester’s age?

    deputydog1 said this on October 9, 2009 at 4:07 PM

    Esther Jessop birthday is September 6, 1972.

    Pitty Pat

  63. hey pitty pat can you email me? i’ve got some more questions you might be able to answer.

    proudtexan09 (@) gmail.com

  64. ProudTexan

    Jennifer
    Carla
    Natalia

    Still Looking for mothers.
    Probably children from “resigned” wifes.
    Piddy Pat

  65. Thanks everyone for the welcome. Greetings, I have so enjoyed your postings on a variety of issues. Of course, I have learned alot from many posters. I hate to think how many hours I have spent reading online, tracking down genealogies, roving around the public library looking for history on the FLDS. For whatever reasons, this story has captivated me.

    Now for a simple question. Is Merrianne back at the ranch? I read something somewhere (can’t remember if it was on this site) that she was and that her mother was there as well. Then a few postings down it seemed like the writer was saying that Barbara was still in the San Antonio area. Just curious (and yeah I know what killed the cat). Thanks!

  66. “curious” not only killed the cat it puts posts in moderation.

    You see, a banned ex-flds poster on=thestreet (aka curious) has been banned from this site and about every other site out there – reason is for mostly language. Really bad nasty language.

    So as a heads up, any post where you say “curious” is automatically held in moderation.

    It happens to almost everybody.

    – ADMIN

  67. Sorry – I had no idea. I’ll be more careful in my choice of words. Thanks for the heads up.

  68. BTW, has anyone read “The Nineteenth Wife” by David Ebershoff? My mother recently told me about it.

  69. I read 19th wife last week. Wow! Ebershoff rewrote Ann Eliza Young’s 1875 memoir, created fictional documents from Brigham Young and others, plus wrote a contemporary murder mystery in the Mormon fundamentalist community–and somehow it all works together under one cover.

  70. Thanks, TexasConnie.

    The author will be in the Buffalo area next week. I’d like to go hear him, although it’s a fairly long trip for me.

    My mother also recommended I read “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I’ve been trying to get HER to read it for the past several years–it’s one of my Top Ten Books of All Time and I reference it frequently.

    Just goes to show how well people attend to what we say. My own mother. Geesh.

  71. I’ll bet hearing Ebershoff in person would be a treat. The 19th Wife is a literary tour de force; lived up to its reviews.

    I’m not familiar with Infidel. Will have to look it up.

  72. “They make it up, Lone Rider. Or to put it nicely, they read imaginatively.”

    FA managed to get this in before the free-for-all thread closed. I love that it came from the man/woman/whatever who claims with no evidence at all that Dan Fischer is hypnotizing and/or paying for false testimony against the FLDS. Still waiting on the evidence for that. LOL! 😆

  73. What bugs me is that the dictations have been cited several times on Brooke’ blog and URLs have been posted for them there. FA is too lazy to read referenced material and wants you to provide a summary of it. Must be alin’s sister. Be uninformed and throw out snarky one liners

  74. No relations but I enjoy reading First Amendment’s concise summary of the law.

  75. oops that was me.

  76. What bugs me is that the dictations have been cited several times on Brooke’ blog and URLs have been posted for them there.
    ===========================================
    I’ve read them. People with dirty minds somehow automatically assumed primetime television must be pornography.

  77. “No relations but I enjoy reading First Amendment’s concise summary of the law.”

    lol, how amusing, considering there is no evidence whatsoever that FA has any background at all in law. Perhaps you enjoy it so much because you both share a “wishful thinking” view of the law.

    “I’ve read them. People with dirty minds somehow automatically assumed primetime television must be pornography.”

    Just where did the dictations say it was “primetime” television? In fact, several places say they were watching until the wee hours of the morning — hardly “primetime”. (Although I WILL grant that it doesn’t say anywhere that it was pornography either.)

  78. My memory of the dictations with regards to WSJ and the wives watching TV is that they were watching pay for view movies not prime time. I am not going to go searching for it, but I seem to remember at least one title that was R or less. Troy? Is that it? I remember thinking it was a really bad movie, but not porn. He makes some comment about watching it to educate the wives on the depravity of the world, so I don’t think it was the Disney Channel. If someone else wants to go in search of the exact quote they can correct me.

    My mother thought Red Skelton was obscene, so I assumed that it was a relative judgment.

  79. My doctor said that a patient came in the other day and he was really depressed. The doc asked him what was wrong and he said “Gosh, Doc, I’m having an affair with my third cousin and it’s getting me down.” Doc said “well, if it’s bothering you so much, maybe you should stop counting.”

  80. Latest FLDS scare tactic: I was shopping at the health food store in Colorado City, and couldn’t help but overhear the conversation between the store clerk and her customer. Apparently, the UN or some other evil world power is going to test the effectiveness of the N1H1 (swine) flu vaccine by spraying the virus all over Utah and Arizona. They will use the number of deaths in those who were immunized in comparison to the number of deaths in those who were not. Her source comes from a “reliable” FLDS RN who overheard her coworkers talking about it at the hospital. They were told to prepare for a lot of sick people and deaths, because of this experiment. These are the kind of stories that I grew up with, and still give me chills to hear them. Now the chills come from seeing the wide-eyed gullability of these people. Yet they thirst for this crap!!! It’s like they can’t hear enough horror stories about the big bad government trying to kill them. So sad.

  81. The white contrails behind jets causes miscarriages, too. I figure if Bill Clinton can’t keep his blow___’s to himself, then these other conspiracy ideas probably don’t have much merit.

  82. (Note that I didn’t use the word “theory” because a theory must be consistent with known evidence)

  83. liloldme, thanks sharing that with us. We need more snoops in Colorado City to eavesdrop on their private conversations so we can post them on this and other blogs. I saw a TV commercial adveertising a fantastic new device that allows you to overhear conversations from a long distance. It would be a great idea to send spies into CO city equipped with these devices, perhaps we could find out who is underage and pregnant along with other crimes and report it to the Sheriff’s dept.

    I did hear that the government is going to test the swine flu vaccine to see how effective it is by comparing those who didn’t get immunized vs. those who did.

    I still don’t understand why they are so paranoid about “outsiders” and always run and hide from us. We are doing everything we can to rescue them.

    FROM ADMIN: DUANE IF YOU WANT TO POST HYPERBOLE AT LEAST DO IT UNDER YOUR OWN NAME

  84. Bishop William, a few years ago, told the people that the government wants to kidnap and even kill some of their children. Whatever it takes to drive the “fear of God” into people.

  85. pssst… Don’t tell anyone, but the FLDS don’t have a monopoly on wacky conspiracy ideas. I hear this nonsense elsewhere.

  86. Hi, duane.

  87. Duane, do you have any children? Were you there when they were born? How can any father who has been present when his child was born not be repulsed at someone minimizing or making light of underaged marriage?

  88. Hmmm, see duane is up to his old “godspecialone” tricks again. What duane are you not “man” enough to just say what you want to say? Gotta hide behind the “skirts” of monikers?

  89. I wasn’t spying. I was completely on the other side of the store. The clerk and her customer were so “excited” by their story that the whole place couldn’t help but hear it. No you don’t really need “fantastic new devices” to hear these people. Just gotta be in the right place at the right time. 🙂

  90. Stamp/Betty po’ duane he must get as bored and cross-eyed as we all do talking to BileM, Cupcake, Alinusara, vulture & pharisee because he always keep coming back here to converse. He can’t condone Warren and can’t keep from condemning us. He seems to be in a perpetual homeless frame of mind. duane why don’t you go over to Pliggy’s house and see if he can come out and play.

  91. duane why don’t you share some more about the girl’s diary you just had to tell us about, your such an upstanding guy.

  92. Carolfromcarolina we don’t know for sure where Merrianne is residing but her relative, Naomi Carlisle is her legal guardian/foster parent. Court orders of restrictions, rights and reviews with her placement are not known. The Texas Monthly article that reported her as being at the YFZ Ranch seemed of interest because she probably has restrictions on being/seeing her father, F. Merril Jessop. If her presence on the ranch was a problem it certainly is no longer much of a secret.

  93. liloldme, no need to explain to duane (posting as sillyspi) he is a TROLL of the highest order.

  94. Just have to accept that ole dog deci duane does not have a shred ot truth in him. Everything about him is lies and deceit. No wonder he has lost all credibility on these boards.

  95. i thought i read the orders about merrianne and that they said she could have visitation with her mother as approved by her guardian, but there was to be no contact with merril and she was not to be at the ranch.

    i’ll have to dig around and see if i can find it.

  96. i just figured out that not only is wee willie somehow related to merril, he’s also a 1st cousin to babs.

  97. “FROM ADMIN: DUANE IF YOU WANT TO POST HYPERBOLE AT LEAST DO IT UNDER YOUR OWN NAME”

    LOL! Nabbed again. Stupid is as stupid does, my Mama always said. 😀

  98. “pssst… Don’t tell anyone, but the FLDS don’t have a monopoly on wacky conspiracy ideas. I hear this nonsense elsewhere.”

    You are sooooo right, Cement. Sometimes, for fun, I read up on the latest end of the world scenario. The FLDS is actually lacking in imagination with them, but then other wackos aren’t limited by the need to puff up their religion — they’re just into fear mongering and maybe making a buck off of the gullible.

  99. Cement, what is underage? Seems there is a good article about woman who had 15 abortions over a 17 year period. Buried in the article is the fact that by her own words, she married a 50 year old professor when she was 16. No mention of that in the comments section, all the hoopla is about her abortions.

  100. Bishop William, a few years ago, told the people that the government wants to kidnap and even kill some of their children. Whatever it takes to drive the “fear of God” into people

    Yea don’t say? Cement that is just crazy talk!!
    Next thing you know they are going to claim the government wants to launch assaults on their communities with apcs’ and assualt troops and snatch their kids at gunpoint and call it a “rescue”.

  101. Are you minimizing, justifying, or promoting underaged marriages?

  102. I’m aware of underaged marriages in my own genealogy. That doesn’t make it right.

  103. ProudTexan I remember the requirements regarding Merrianne and her not being around Merril the same as you said. I think it was all spelled out in the last document that finalized her going to live with Naomie Carlisle.

    That document is posted on this web site – it was back a couple of months ago, during the summer.

  104. Post deleted – Troll behavior noted – ADMIN

  105. duane the reality of the YFZ Removal didn’t require even one APC vehicle? The APC that was brought on day 2 of the Search Warrant never entered the ranch on the first day. In fact the APC vehicle was not put into any use other than an object of interest to people who had never seen or been inside of one before. “Assault Troops”? Rather colorful language for SWAT Police who were not deployed but held in reserve if a hostage or Temple barricade situation had occurred. Haven’t you heard of ‘contingency planning’? The only gunpoint situation was to hail the truck that had begun to motor by Levi Barlow Jeffs who was placed under arrest. duane the CPS Rescue will become undeniable upon a series of convictions of the indictees and insurmountable proof that the Ranch was the scene of multiple felonies.

  106. “FROM ADMIN: DUANE IF YOU WANT TO POST HYPERBOLE AT LEAST DO IT UNDER YOUR OWN NAME”

    Did ole dog deci get banned as duane so he now has to use duaneh1?
    Lies and deceit will come back and bite you everytime. Too bad they did not ban every ISP that deci, duane, duaneh1, skinwalker, god’s special idiot, etc have ever posted from in the last year.
    Flds admin. please, please ban him permanently so we won’t have ever again have to see his carp posts.

  107. i agree cajim. after the fact of ruby ridge and waco, they had to make plans for the “what if” situations. they’d have been crazy not to, not to mention crucified in the press.

    i heard that the tax people tried to go to the ranch for appraisal purposes a month or so ago and were denied access, so they were using flyover photos by jd to reassess their property values. apparently more buildings have been added since the last evaluation was done.

    can you say kaching? i can hear the cash register ringing now bringing in more cash to schliecher county.

  108. Regarding Merrianne …. The order did not prohibit Merrianne from being around Merril, it just didn’t give him any entitlement to unsupervised access to the child. It’s a fine point but Naomi is not in violation of the court order. It’s terrible judgment on her part, and if CPS learns that Merrianne is living on the Ranch in proximity to her father they would probably have grounds to remove Merrianne from Naomi or seek to modify the order with restrictions against allowing Merrianne to be in Merril’s presence.

  109. “Cement, what is underage?”

    Look it up in the law where you and/or the child live. Remember it is illegal to cross state lines with a minor for the purpose of having sex with him/her in a state with more liberal age laws.

    “Seems there is a good article about woman who had 15 abortions over a 17 year period.”

    Thank you for sharing. This website is about the abuses the FLDS have perpetrated on women and children under the guise of religious freedom, not abortion.

    “Buried in the article is the fact that by her own words, she married a 50 year old professor when she was 16.”

    And if she had 15 abortions in 17 years that would tend to indicate she wasn’t at all ready for marriage, wouldn’t it? Of course I don’t actually believe you because you are a liar who likes to try and muddy the waters with vile accusations and call them your opponents. Did you run over to Mudpucky’s site and claim “everyone” wanted to use long range listening devices to spy on the FLDS?

    “No mention of that in the comments section, all the hoopla is about her abortions.”

    So? Illegal is illegal. You don’t like the law, lobby for a new one — it’s the American way. Breaking the law because you don’t like it is the criminal way. Why do I really think that law enforcement in your area should be alerted to your disregard for the law? I really wonder what laws you break. I’m coming to suspect that your joyfull support of underage sex and marriage is only the tip of the iceberg.

  110. a question for our learned audience : I know that polygamy is illegal in all 50 states in the US. I know that in some states, such as Texas, it is illegal to cohabit with more than one person and claim that you have more than one spouse, even if you are not legally married to more than one person. In which states, other than Texas, is this true?
    Thanks in advance,
    catwhisperer

  111. There is no common law marriage in the state of Virginia except those which were already established when the family law was radically changed in the early ’90s. You either have a piece of paper from the county or you don’t, here.

  112. rebeckah wrote: “Of course I don’t actually believe you because you are a liar who likes to try and muddy the waters with vile accusations and call them your opponents”

    Yes, no one can believe anything that old deci duaneh1 dog says. He has lied, deceived, played nasty tricks, etc to the point that no one is taken in by his carp anymore. Makes you wonder why he spends time posting stuff here.

  113. duane can always drive down the street and find out what its like to get busted as a child molester.

    Trials start soon, mark your calender and gas uo the car!

  114. Cement, I have slave traders and pirates (same people) in my genealogy. So don’t feel so bad.

  115. Cement, I have slave traders and pirates (same people) in my genealogy. So don’t feel so bad.

    Geez, if we were judged by our extended families I think most of us would be in trouble.

  116. My worry was duane trying to shame me because my dear ancestors did something. He tries to send me on guilt trips, but that only worked when I was FLDS.

  117. This URL has a chart of the states and whether they do or do not recognize common law marriages. Indiana does not.

    http://family.findlaw.com/living-together/living-together-common-law-marriage/common-law-marriage-state-laws.html

  118. cement

    And on another thread somewhere he was uing you a source of secret info ha ha.

    Momday madness” on brookes blaugh.

    Being born into a religion takes away personal choice – breaking free from it can be liberating…….

  119. Yes, as I recall he said or implied that Cement left the flds of his own volition. I think ale wife has it right. You cannot trust anything duane says.

  120. Betty, Chemist et al,
    The question I am asking is not about whether common law marriages are recognized in a particular state or not. I am asking which states make it a crime to engage in polygamy, whether or not all the “marriages” are legal or registered with the state.

  121. Virginia has a bigamy law, but no law that uses the word ‘polygamy’. It is still enforced if the woman or women who have been wronged file a complaint. It involves up to a two year term and a fine, although almost all of the cases in the last few decades have had the sentence suspended. This really burns me up, since the women involved generally have lost significant amounts of money to men who are perpetrating serial fraud.

    BTW, there are also adultery laws on the books and there was recently one very highly publicized case in which a minister cheated on his wife and she insisted on pressing criminal charges. He plead guilty.

  122. As far as I know, cohabitation is also still illegal in Virginia and occasionally gets prosecuted, usually in small rural communities.

  123. “My worry was duane trying to shame me because my dear ancestors did something. He tries to send me on guilt trips, but that only worked when I was FLDS.”

    Cement, would it be fair to say that growing up in the FLDS is a pretty terrifying proposition? That you are constantly in fear of being “not good enough”, “not sweet enough”, “not obedient enough” and losing your salvation, your family, etc? Because Duane has shared with us that you feel it wasn’t. Since you’re checking in here I thought I’d ask you to answer for yourself.

  124. duane was vully vetted as a purveyer of manure when in an hour he said all the kicked men were for bad deeds, but then he admits he cant really name any bad deeds any particular of the kicked men did.

    Both Rebeckas and I clipped him upside the head with that one.

  125. I know from personal experience that if you say “Warren ain’t a prophet” that they will attempt to break up a family and kick one off UEP land. It has actually been taught over the pulpit that denying the prophet is a worse crime than murder. I can’t give a reference since I am at work on lunch break, but I can get that tonight if anyone is interested.

    Rebeckah, I was never suicidal, but it appears religion can actually do this to people. The biggest issue is personal, so I will only lightly touch on it. I was too honest about personal issues and that was a mistake. I’m not talking serious problems, but if you are too honest, it gets turned into a big problem by people who have worse problems themselves.

  126. Well put, cement. I can definitely understand that.

  127. In the past, despite Duane’s rather odd belief systems, I’d say that I supported his right to participate and have his say. However, with his recent history of sock puppetry, ad hominem attacks, and general asshattery, I have to say that I can’t be at all supportive.

    Should he be banned? I can’t say that I support it, but I wouldn’t say anything if he was.

  128. He’s like the old tom cat that we have at home that no one seems to like. I’d still miss him if he were gone.

  129. I understand what you’re saying, Cement. I was speaking in more general terms. I believe that the entire Mormon belief system (and more so in the fundamentalist sects) is based on fear. I realize that people who live in fear all of the time become accustomed to it, might even not notice it (much like chronic pain) but I do believe that fear is at the core of the FLDS actions. Parents who give their children up to work, rather than finishing their education, to abandonment (for what the rest of the world would probably consider normal teen age rebellion, if that), or to an underage marriage are doing so out of fear, not out of religious beliefs.

    Please don’t get me wrong, though, I’m not trying to trash the religion. MOST religions motivate with fear. But Duane’s assertion that everyone is just happy, happy, happy is as assinine as his suggestion that people spy on the FLDS.

    So that’s more of what I was asking. Did you fear a lot growing up? Were you worried that dad might get reassigned or that you might not be good enough to go to heaven or things like that? (If you don’t mind me asking. Feel free not to answer. I know it’s a rather nosy question.) 🙂

  130. I think we should let Duane keep coming and let the administration keep “outing” him when he tries his pathetic deceptions. It is so typical of FLDS supporters to resort to such measures and it’s great, in my opinion, to have the deceitful mindset pointed out over and over and over again.

  131. I am ambivalent about whether duane, deci, etal should be banned or not. His practice of “putting words” in cement’s plygkid’s etc’s mouths really irks me. It is just totally dishonest and besmirches other people.
    Agreed that showing his deceits is good. When you can’t argue the facts; you lie and call names. He has surely done that over and over again.

  132. Certain PPSG are liable to become increasingly testy as the Trials against the FLDS HOOTER TOMCATS are lost.

    Losing the child support case and the MTS recently set them on edge, but its only going to get worse.

    For the most part, true FLDS have folded their tents and shut up about it. Its all bad news from here on out.

  133. Cement

    If denying a prophet is such a crime, what is the crime for falsely claiming to BE the Prophet?

    Oh, I realize Warren will kick people for “aspiring for position”, but isnt that what he has done?

  134. Well, IMO, ole dog deci duane should be permanetly banned from this site. His carp posts are sickening. All he does is lie, why should he even be here??

  135. Please don’t make me give reasons for things that make no sense. If everything was internally consistent, I would still be FLDS. Having taken physics courses, I know what internally consistent means. You can approach a problem from a conservation of energy standpoint, or integrate the forces, and you get the same answer.

    Now, for the ultimate in unreasonable. “God won’t allow the prophet to lead the people wrong.” There is more than one group that has made that claim. Why hasn’t God smitten all the non-real prophets so we can see who the real one is? Oh, I know! This doctrine only applies to the true prophet (our prophet, of course), but you can still use it to put your doubts to rest about the true prophet. This doctrine doesn’t apply to false prophets. Make sense? No?…. Good!

  136. Well ale wife, every time duane is shown out in a lie, it just adds another nail in the pro-flds coffin. With duane/bill m/mcbryde as friends who needs enemies? I say let him stay and out him at every lie. I love when he is outed for posting hyperbole, it shows his true colors!

    But of course I am convinced that duane is a 12 year old kid playing on the computer.

  137. I feel that we have a calm before the storm going on here. All the blogs on the subject are kind of quiet. It’s a bit unnerving.

  138. Wait 2 weeks Betty then all h*ll is gonna break loose, LOL.

  139. Rebeckah, my growing up was not bad, my father was less fanatic than most. The religion from my perspective was OK until we were told to discontinue business with the Centennial group, quit the public schools, and then family breakups all over the place. Even that wasn’t enough; it was secrecy that finally caused me to say “enough”. But to say I had a miserable oppressive childhood would not be true. Cults often do that; they are benign for years and then go south.

  140. Cement

    ha ha ha how true!

    Well, I realize that not only you but even Carolyn and Flora would still be FLDS if there wasnt abuse of power.

    If each succeeding prophet had made life better, safer, more secure and fair, I imagine even Dan Fishcer would still be there.

    JMHO of course – and I realize that there are strong freindships and family alliances along with horribly broken one.

    One would think a man of god, prophet or not, could lead a people away from the cliffs of human despair.

    Instead of pushing them off of it.

  141. cement – see the time stamp – we both wrote at about the same time.

    Isnt it funny, Warren wanted all this secrecy, and in the long run got more stuff put out to the world than all the FLDS prophets put together.

    It backfired on him big time. Now with 12 trials and appeals, even schoolkids in Florida are gonna know what up with the TOMCATS.

  142. Cement,
    I am relatively new to this blog. Tell me about how you left – how did you leave ? Did you have difficulty leaving ? are you able to maintain relationships with anyone in the group at this time?

  143. The secrecy that finally caused me to say “enough is enough” was working on a silly saw that would cut rocks. I was told we would be finding a secluded place to build it; we couldn’t even tell our wife what we were working on; and if even one word got out about it, the prophet’s life would be in danger. And this was training for how things are in Zion.

    I left that meeting disgusted so Lyle called me up to talk to me and I asked “why the secrecy?” I was told “If you can’t agree to this secrecy, the prophet can’t use you.” I had to make my decision then, and I told him “It looks like he can’t use me anyway because I don’t accept him as a prophet.” It was that meeting at Western Precision that was the final straw.

  144. I forgot “Don’t even *speculate* what we might be doing with this saw.”

  145. does anyone know who lives at 5325 bent oak court in san angelo?

  146. ProudTexan, there is no 5325 bent oak court, but Judge Walther does live on bent oak court in San Angelo.

  147. wow, so mudpuppy is threatening judge walther?

  148. so i’m looking back at the old order for dna and on schedule “a”, it has Jessop, Joseph Steed aka Jessop, Joseph (Jr) aka Joseph Johnson. What’s up with the going from Jessop to Johnson? Later on in the list, there’s a Steed, Joseph Jessop and a just plain Steed, Joseph.

  149. Well Lady Sadie: You are correct in that in that if duane, Bill M and huge ego mcbryde are the best defenders the flds can muster, they are in real deep doo doo.

  150. Um, cut rocks with it?????

  151. ooooh. Cut into a prison wall!

  152. Um, cut rocks with it??????
    ==============
    Do you work for Microsoft writing Help files?

  153. Wow, I’ve been gone [and out of touch] for a week…so much to catch up on. All the names of ‘brides’ and children, it makes one dizzy trying to keep them all straight. I’m glad someone is keeping a list!
    I loved duane’s attempted charade! Bless his pointed little head!!! Maybe a nice tight choke collar [kinda like the one FLDS TEXAS seems to be using] will make him sit/stay and not speak!

  154. Maybe not rocks or prison walls. Maybe bodies?

  155. Aerial photos clearly show it cutting limestone for the temple. Why that had to be so secret is weird.

  156. Secrets keep people being controlled cement

  157. regardless how silly the secret is, Warren was obsessed with control

  158. I feel strongly that Warren is a very damaged human being. He has a pathological need for both control and adulation. I don’t know if he’s a narcissist or not (although he certainly has MANY narcissistic traits). For some reason, though, he seems more insecure to me than simply narcissistic. His obsession with his father makes me wonder if Rulon ignored him, disliked him, or simply couldn’t remember who he was. Whatever it is, Warren’s need for control shows a very damaged emotional landscape.

    (I recognize it because I have the same need for control to a far lesser degree. I have been fighting it since my children were born because I knew I’d stifle them if I didn’t. It’s HARD to let your children bounce of to the land of pain and growing up and independant.) 🙂

  159. I’m going to guess that Warren has no clue the names of all his children, so he’s just repeating the cycle. I mean with 80+ wives and who knows how many children, who could. I wonder if the women “married” to the dirty dozen will be reassigned after conviction?

  160. I think you’re right, proudtexan, and it’s one of the major flaws with polygamy.

  161. I think that the secrecy has caused the FLDS to know less about what is going on within the FLDS than the Gentiles, and the FLDS are told “Only get it from the priesthood; don’t be looking into these other sources; they are all lies.”

    Rebeckah, my personal opinion about cults, not just the FLDS, is that they are the result of people trying to hide from the world, and hiding their children from crap, rather than facing the world and teaching their children how to survive in the “dog-eat-dog” world. Of couse none of us wants our children exposed to crap, but we do have to teach them how to survive. And in the end, the parents unwittingly send their children through more crap as a result. Example: broken families is far worse than teenage girls exposing belly buttons or cleavage.

  162. Cults are a breeding ground for abuse, phyically, mentally, emotionally, and sexually. Most cults are Male dominated and members or followers have to do what they are told, or kicked out. Some cults don’t take your wives and children, but kick them out as well.
    But most, are cruel because they twist and screw everything they believe and put “God” on the label

  163. Warren was paranoid that saw blade could be used to cut through all his crap and he would be exposed to the world.

    OOPS happened anyway!

  164. Wasn’t a saw blade. It was similar to a behemoth EDM machine (cuts metal under water with an electrical current using a thin wire) and was CNC (computer numeric controlled) for cutting elaborate shapes in rocks.

  165. Hmmmm A Computer controlled, under water, electric wire, that cuts through Warrens crap.

    Anything in a pinch!

    Jokes aside, it seems he made none of the right moves and all of the wrong moves, especially when dealing with “FLDS human resources”…

  166. Oooooooooh, secret!

  167. EDM’s are underwater and used as the closest machine I could come up with as an example to what this machine does. This machine is not underwater; metal cutting EDM’s are. I don’t know if the diamond wire is water cooled or not, but if it was water cooled, it would be running water, not submerged.

  168. Compared to some of the machines I saw in Chicago at ITMS, that rock cutting saw is nothing. But hey, if the wicked gentiles know we can do computerized cutting of rocks, they will be breaking down our doors to steal the machine, much like they will want to steal our cement recipes.

  169. And then Warren gets it all monkeywrenched and the law goes through his stuff like a hot knife through butter.

  170. “Compared to some of the machines I saw in Chicago at ITMS, that rock cutting saw is nothing. But hey, if the wicked gentiles know we can do computerized cutting of rocks, they will be breaking down our doors to steal the machine, much like they will want to steal our cement recipes.”

    But only so we can destroy the FLDS, throw assassin “stars” at Warren and prostitute the women. Really, otherwise we’re fine human beings and you’d probably like us. 😉

  171. cement – Also the color and cut of the drapes for the temple.

    They were right up there with the ‘gentile ceilings.’ Now I think I understand. If the gentiles knew about the ceilings and the drapes, they’d try to steal them?

    Thanks for that. I couldn’t figure out why those things were super secret.

  172. The Holy Cement – adapted from Monty Python:

    “First shalt thou take use the Holy Lime, then shalt thou use three parts lime, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count… Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then usest thou thy Holy Cement to protectest against thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.”

  173. Love the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch scene. The best scene of the movie. The Killer Rabbit comes close though.

  174. Vorpal Bunnies RULE!!! 😆

  175. Ramen.

  176. hey texastwist – could you please email me. my email is proudtexan09 at gmail (.) com

  177. Just so you know (as if my avatar picture wasn’t a dead giveaway) I’m just going to stick with my “rianya” handle since Rebeckah didn’t seem to go through when I signed into Blue’s new blog. I didn’t intend to switch my handle but I’m feeling lazy today and don’t want to fight with WordPress. 😉

  178. yeah, i ended up as proudtexas over at blues new place.

  179. Done, PT.

  180. I’m still me, LOL, even on blues new blog.

  181. Don’t you consult the “Book of Mixing” for how to mix the cement. Wait…That was the book for who is married to who and what location their children are at.

  182. twist – i didn’t get it, can you try again please.

    proudtexan09 at gmail.com

  183. cement – i’m not sure anyone knows for sure who’s married to whom or where the children all are.

  184. FLDS TEXAS can you make your font a little larger.

    My eyes are straining to see the small white type.

    My eyes are old.

  185. Oh, what will Goldstein think of next.

    Not enough Hispanics picked for Grand Jurors in Schleicher County.

    New filing on Brooke’s blog.

  186. Anon 9:31 pm – go to your “Page”, click on “Zoom” and choose the size font you want. Works wonders for my old eyes. That’s the only way I can see to read this small type. You may have to change it back and forth as you go from site to site, but at least you’ll be able to see this to read it more easily. Good reading…….

  187. Anonymous @ 9:31 PM while on the web page (this will work for any web page not just this one) hit “ctrl” and the + keys at the same time. This will make the fonts larger for you.

  188. Done again, PT.

  189. Cement – I really enjoy hearing you tell about your experiences. I wonder why so many others were not able to see the goofiness that was so apparent to you.

  190. Goldstein’s filing doesn’t appear to make any sense as the indicted FLDS members would have to show themselves to be members of the proven ‘distinct class’ in order to challenge the jury selection process as being biased/flawed, Hernandez vs. Texas, 1954.

  191. Thanks Twist. I’ve sent you one back.

  192. Yes cajim, how would having more or less people with hispanic surnames help or hurt the flds? It does not make sense to me either.

  193. Ladysadie, thank you for that tip. I didn’t know about being able to enlarge font with the keystrokes. Much easier than the way I have been doing it. Learn something new everyday, no matter how old you get. LOL

  194. OK I have reread the Goldstein motion and he does touch upon the fact that the FLDS indicted clients aren’t of the ‘distinct class’ but owing to the integrity of the Juror System as a fair method with public integrity needs to be examined. So basically the motion is an attempt to put the Schleicher County Juror System on trial before the ‘Dirty Dozen’.

    This is a challenge to the juror system having an improper cross section of ethnic members and therefore the indictments handed down on the ‘Dirty Dozen’ needs to be quashed.

  195. but goldstein says in his motion that the system Schleicher County used was an acceptable system, just not the best in his view. If he doesn’t like it, maybe he should move to Schleicher County, run for the office that’s in charge of the Grand Jury system and then he can change it to his little heart’s content. Until then he can live with the system in place just like everyone else.

  196. I bet Goldstein isnt happy about choosing such clients either, But they choose him, waving millions in front of his face like a flag in front of a bull.

    Bull is the operative word.

  197. Ladiesadie, Thanks for that technical tip. Helps ole grandma, too. Wish everything else could be as easy to understand.

  198. LOL, the keystroke also works in reverse, if you get the fonts too big and want to make them smaller then hit the “ctrl” and the “-“(minus) keys at the same time.

  199. Stamp thanks for completing the ‘circle of logic’ on how a Hispanic cross-section of 31% on the Motion to Quash has anything to do with a crime wave imported from Utah. I didn’t think about the Bullfight and RED cape the matador uses. Of course placing the banderillos and then the ‘coup d’gras’ with the matador’s sword is normal outcome. Mexicans always applaud & enjoy the end of the Bull.

  200. It seems mr goldstein isnt familiar with the area. yes there are probably 40% hispanics in the county. Many who are legal age to serve on a jury, aren’t legal citizens, or can not read or write.
    Many moved from mexico, and have not obtained legal citizenship.
    Many work in the area, but go back and forth.

  201. Not sure you can serve on a jury with a green card

  202. DD

    Goldfinger says there are 31% of the residents who are hispanic and registered to vote.

    I find that statistic highly suspect.

    In light of tons of similarly skewed jurist pools – for instance, the reluctance of certain classes of people to participate even if eligible to vote – hasnt overturned any indictments much less convictions, that I’ve seen.

  203. From Fox News: I like the nice round number of 30 years for having 2 wives and child moleststion.
    “SAN DIEGO — A man who lived in California with two wives has been sentenced to 30 years in prison for sexually assaulting three relatives when they were girls.

    Jose Luis Torres Quiroz, 54, was sentenced Friday in San Diego. He pleaded guilty last month to rape, sodomy and committing forcible lewd acts on children.

    Prosecutors say Torres sexually assaulted his relatives beginning when they were 7, 10 and 11. They say the eldest girl — who’s now 28 — was assaulted until she turned 18 and left home.

    Authorities say Torres had wives in Mexico and the U.S. He lived with both in San Diego before moving to Mexico.

  204. Oh but chemist,

    These are mexicans you see, did you not hear duane say, this is quite common and an acceptable practice amongst latinos?

  205. so Goldstein is talking about 66 hispanics out of 2000 voters.
    In texas they can use voter registration cards, or driver’s license numbers. Many hispanic dont even have driver’s license.

  206. duane is getting famous HA HA as a FLDS shill!

    “”Duane” in the comments is either a member of the FLDS or a shill that they hired.”

    http://ms-daisy-cutter.livejournal.com/1209959.html

    warning -language

  207. you dont have to serve at all if you are over 65, have a child under the age of 15, or have care of children with disabilities. Nor do you have to serve if you are a college student. You are disqualified if you have a misdemeanor or felony on your record.

  208. And this site. While there is some language here too, its a cross section of uninformed US residents who catch a little glimpse of the FLDS.

    ===================

    othercat

    2009-10-14 07:39 pm

    …The duane person in the comments for that blog is an optimist or an idiot. I can’t tell which.

    =======

    stoney321

    2009-10-14 07:51 pm

    The duane person in that post is an FLDS plant. He hits all the blogs with pro-FLDS claptrap.

    Which means he’s the latter. 🙂

    ——————————–

    http://stoney321.livejournal.com/391069.html

  209. DD

    There are a lot more reasons you can get out of serving. Pretty much, IMHO, its gotten down to “If you are chosen and willing to serve, you can serve, with the exception of convictions and prosecution /defense objections of course.”

    Perhaps different states have different rules, I imagine they do.

    We’ll see how many hispanics serve on the actual trial juries. It’ll be interesting but irrelevant.

    BTW I served on a jury regarding an assault case, and the victims were adamant the police were overzealous in pressing charges, we voted quickly to acquit.

    Perhaps the police WERE overzealous due to the nature of the original call and potential of what might be out there, but it seems it should never have made it to trial.

  210. First of all, no one saw the evidence the grand jury saw, but it was certainly proof enough for them to indict these men.

  211. [I posted this on Brookes, also]—I’ve served on many juries, both local and federal, and the make up doesn’t always conform to the racial percentage of the county. That’s just the way it works out. I’ve yet to be on a case where the judge or the lawyers have cried foul because the jury make up wasn’t a specific percenage of any one race or ethnic group. No trials would happen if that was a requirement. It’s unrealistic. We have a huge Mexican population here…but, as with all racial/ethnic groups, not all are eligible for jury duty…or want to serve! [It’amazing the excuses put forward to get out of it.]

  212. The Grand Jury gets way more excuses because they have to meet once a month if the need is there. They serve for 6 months (I think). But like others have said, Schleicher County has its fair share of illegals and they aren’t allowed to serve on a jury, much less a Grand Jury.

  213. I am more than happy to serve on a jury. However, my jury notice always asks me to show up on April 15. I can’t DO that!

  214. i’ve got one for monday.

  215. watchingu2: “this is quite common and an acceptable practice amongst latinos?”

    Wonder if duane’s latino wife agrees with this, I would guess her answer would be NO! LOL

  216. i think duane is off his rocker. most hispanic fathers want to kill anyone who looks at his little girl. he’s not going to condone letting one of them have sex with her.

  217. I think Duane is maybe more familiar with the less than legal hispanics. The hispanic version of “white trash” as it were. (No offense intended to your lovely wife. Not trying to imply she’s white trash. If she exists I’m pretty sure she’s simply a little slow upstairs.) Those are the members of the class I’d expect to be giving away their 13 year old daughters. The hispanics who are legal, solid members of American society are undoubtedly deeply protective of their daughters. Undoubtedly more than Duane, with his warped view of child sexuality, actually expects.

  218. 14. mable a. johnson – 1 son named jeffs

    I also have her name as Mabel Annette Jessop. Don’t know who her husband is.

    ____________________________________

    She’s Mable Annette Jessop, daughter of Paul Stanley and Carla Johnson Jessop. She was married to Lyle Jeffs 12/23/2003.

  219. The Loretta Jessop Jeffs who has the child Mahroni is a daughter of Merril Jessop and either his wife Faunita or Ruth. She was the first of Merril’s daughters to marry Rulon Jeffs. Married him in 1990 or 1991. My information says she refused to marry WSJ after Rulon’s death and married his brother Nephi Jeffs.

    ************************
    She was married to Richard Jeffs Allred on May 6, 2003. Was this Richard exed and she remarried to Nephi?

  220. Rebeckah, I don’t know exactly what quote of Duane’s you’re referencing, but I’m guessing what he’s attempting to say about some Hispanics is their acceptance of a ‘Sancha.’ Essentially a married man’s babe on the side.

    Culturally this is no way confined to lower classes. Actually, it’s more common in the upper classes. Like the elite in our society, David Letterman and Woody Allen for example. It takes money so support another woman. However, usually the ‘Sancha’ is a woman from the lower classes with questionable morals. It’s likely Duane is deriving his experience from a similar situation.

    If what Duane says is true, then why haven’t the LeBaron group in Mexico grown exponentially? Most Hispanic women who get sucked into polygamy end up eventually getting out. Only the hard core anglo Mormons seem to stay.

    Being family oriented Hispanics would be just as likely, if not more so, to find a person who abuses a child guilty. Especially after hearing the dictations on Laminites.

  221. 1. Some of the Triple AP’s strongest support is coming from the Hispanic community in San Antonio. These women understand the danger of an out of control male machismo, combined with the potential decriminalization of the practice. Their BS detectors are on RED ALERT!

    2. It has recently been brought to my attention that the Texas Monthly article on the 439 children removed from the YFZ has garnered almost no response in their letters to the editor.

    The article was titled “With G-d On their Side”. If anyone would like to respond, you can email a letter to the editor of Texas monthly at Roar@TexasMonthly.com

  222. Boots, where can the Texas Monthly article on the children be found electronically?

  223. http://www.TexasMonthly.com

    The full text of the article is only availble to subscribers.

  224. Hey guys….I’m new here but not to my dedication to help stop polygamy in MY state! I’ve talked to a gentleman in my hometown about getting some t-shirts made up to help raise money to stop the abuses of polygamy. I’m going to have the graphics for the front and back posted on the http://www.tripleAP.org site soon. Any interest?? If you live in the TX Hill Country, you can contact me and pick them up instead of having them shipped to you. I’m going to ask for a $20 donation for each shirt and that will include shipping it to you.

  225. Rebeckah, hispanics don’t “give away” their daughters, in Mexico, as in the US, it is not uncommon for teenagers to hook up with older dudes. the difference is, if their parents catch them and they don’t approve, they get in trouble but the police aren’t called in, everyone doesn’t freak out and go crazy, their daughters or sons for that matter aren’t considered “victims” but miscreants and they are considered responsible for what whatever indiscretions they committed. In other cases, it is not uncommon for 16 year olds to marry guys much older with parental approval.
    Also, TV isn’t loaded with shows and specials featuring scary music, warning about “predators” preying on 15-16-17 year olds.

    Basically, they aren’t obsessed with fantasies of adolescent sex like many are here in the US. No, that doesn’t mean I approve of 16 year olds having sex with older dudes, but if I caught my 16 year old trying to pick up a 30 year old on the internet, I would have a hell of a lot more to say to her than anyone else.

  226. Welcome tufflady!

    Hey did y’all see that ridiculous article Brooke wrote about the Trust and the tax liens.? That really irks me. I’m so sick of Rod Parker and Wilkie Jessop telling lies. I think I’m going to post a rebuttal later. Is that something y’all are interested in or does UEP stuff induce catatonia?

  227. Tufftxlady — I want a t-shirt that says:

    PEDOPHILIA IS NOT A RELIGION

  228. post away about the UEP. It’s really all part of the same mind control that goes on in the so called religion.

    and I want that pedophilia shirt too.

  229. those interested in t-shirts….sorry no pedophilia shirts are on the menu. Only one that’s posted on the tripleAP site. Those I can get!

  230. There’s a new article about the same UEP issues that just came out from Jennifer Dobner — much more reasonable.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/6673728.html

  231. Tx Tuff Lady – I want one of your tee shirts !

  232. catwhisperer — email me at pisslejane@gmail.com and I’ll get you the information.

  233. The article listed by FLDS Texas at 6:00 pm does seem to be far more even handed.

  234. FLDS Texas, for sure post about the UEP. I find it fascinating, a case of “you can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can’t fool all the people all the time.”

  235. I’m trying to catch up on the weekend’s posts, and practically did somersaults after reading Cement’s comment:

    “Of course none of us wants our children exposed to crap, but we do have to teach them how to survive. And in the end, the parents unwittingly send their children through more crap as a result. Example: broken families are far worse than teenage girls exposing belly buttons or cleavage.”

    My kids attend public school and university. They are not weakened in their faith by this—that which is TRUE will stand up to challenge. That which breaks down in the marketplace of ideas is no faith at all.

    I’ve had the belly-button discussion a million times. My feeling was that if that was the worst they got up to, we were in great shape. And guess what? It WAS the worst they got up to!

  236. The UEP is one of the major flds stories, so please post about it. I think the state takeover of the UEP is behind the exodus of the flds to their refuges R17, R23, etc. They could no longer control where people lived in short creek so thet buiilt up other places where they could control that.

  237. cement wrote “Do you work for Microsoft writing Help files?”

    Close.

  238. Greetings from NY – admiring your postings, loving you, in a very sisterly Christian kind of way, from a location approximately 50 miles due east. Welcome back…

  239. I really like the cat picture. I need to take some time this week and totally redo my profile. I’ve got that historical belly dancer picture everywhere since I changed my browser and I haven’t figured out how that is happening.

  240. duane the,’…fantasies of adolescent sex like many are here in the US” isn’t likely to be an underage 16 year old girl searching for a 30 year old man but rather a boy closer to her own age group. When this topic of under aged sex is discussed you seem to always couch your belief that underage females are equally common as adult aged male perpetrators which is your oft repeated ‘adolescent fantasies’. Young 16 year old girls are by far more interested in 18 year old partners than 30 year old perverts stuck in their teen-years. The vast majority of teen girls would have little to no interest in a 30 year old partner but that doesn’t stop you from repeatedly suggesting that the young girls are interested.

    Your rejoinder of you don’t approve of older dudes having relationships with young girls decries the fact that you always bring up the subject of the minor girl wanting/seeking such a relationship which no buddy buys in the first place except you.

    Passing around your gringo knowledge of Hispanic sexual mores and cultural practices isn’t credible either. Your insistence that older men having sexual contact or that it is more tolerated by Mexicans is just more of your unfounded bunk.

  241. Duane’s “just more of your unfounded bunk” is too polite. Deci dog’s bunk is just lies. Flat out lying to protect his flds heros.

  242. Thanks, catwhisperer. You’re 50 miles east of where, exactly? (New York is a pretty big state.)

  243. east of NYC

  244. Duane, US culture AND LAWS differ from those south of the border. Just so you know. Pregunta vd su esposa. There’s a reason prickly pear cactus is planted closely outside the young girls’ bedroom windows.

  245. Boy howdy, it’s good to see Huesos back again 🙂

  246. Huesos, I think Duane is Juan Dominguez.

  247. Si Duane, tu preguntas la novia. See why there is wrought iron grills on the windows and the young ladies can’t go past the entryway to their houses unattended by an adult in the night.

  248. Breadbaking, pan, tonight. It’s finally gotten cool enough out for baking.

  249. Hmm, maybe Duane has multiple personality disorder.

  250. Betty, thanks for admiring the cat picture. His name is Max, and he is one of the two feline assisted therapy cats I own. He is a flame point Himalayan (colorpointed Persian) cat.

  251. Cajim, 16-17 year olds hookup with with 30 year olds all the time, not the majority but many do. Speaking of “attractivness”, I can’t speak for women, but how many 16 year boys would turn down 30 year old Holly Madison??? I imagine it would be the same with say Colin Farrell and a 16 yo girl.

    Cajim, if your comment about wrought iron grills is referring to Mexican parents you are sadly mistaken. My wife grew up in Mexico DF, as a teen she was going out to clubs, dancing to rock and techno, parking in cars with her bf, pretty much like in the states. Contrary to your silly stereotype, they are rather sophisticated. Not all mexicans are peasants, wear ponchos, and live in dusty villages.

  252. duane

    How many 15 yr old girls in your family married 30 plus yr old men?

    That were already married?

    Oh, and Ive been to much of Mexico. If the villiage isnt dusty its usually because its muddy.

    No, not life “pretty much like in the states”….. At least for 98 pct of Mexicans.

  253. I just raised 16 year olds, duane, and they did not go to clubs. My step daughters went to church socials and my grandson goes to football games. Clubs that routinely let in teenagers lose their licenses in my town and the bouncers near the college are pretty savvy to the tricks kids play.

    ‘Sophistication’ does not mean ‘lacking any responsibility for the whereabouts of your kids’.

  254. Once again Duane views the world through his own, twisted lenses. No wonder he keeps writing about people having sexual fantasies — it’s because he’s running out of his own and is hoping someone will come up with some new ones for him.

    Warren’s young wives were so excited to be married to him that several of them needed “correction” as to the proper attitude to take with their joyous concubinage. I mean, what teen girl DOESN’T dream of hooking up with a 50 year old guy with 70 or 80 sister wives and a life of hard labor and medical neglect. I know that’s what I dreamed of as a 16 year old…

  255. Duane is a troll. A rather inept one, as far as trolls go.

    “In the late 1980s, Internet users adopted the word “troll” to denote someone who intentionally disrupts online communities. Early trolling was relatively innocuous, taking place inside of small, single-topic Usenet groups. The trolls employed what the M.I.T. professor Judith Donath calls a “pseudo-naïve” tactic, asking stupid questions and seeing who would rise to the bait. …

    “Today the Internet is much more than esoteric discussion forums. It is a mass medium for defining who we are to ourselves and to others. … As our emotional investment in the Internet has grown, the stakes for trolling — for provoking strangers online — have risen. Trolling has evolved from ironic solo skit to vicious group hunt.”

    NYTimes: The Trolls Among Us
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03trolls-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

  256. ole dog deci duane is also a liar and a hypocrite. He slams people for not visiting the school in BC to get first hand information, yet when he had an opportunity to meet and talk to Flora, he backed out. When asked if he would attend the trials he gave a weak excuse(lied) and will not attend. Too afraid of learning something that may conflict with his beliefs about his flds heros.

  257. Duane is comparing the Dirty Dozen (favorably) to movie stars?

  258. The Swiss demonstrate how to handle pedophiles who are flight risks:

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Movies/10/20/polanski.release/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

  259. Yeah, who would think Polanski is a flight risk?

  260. Ale Wife, I’m going to look into taking him up on it. I live in not far from Idaho and Canada so I have a feeling Bountiful is probably a vacation type drive for me. Of course, that means I have to get a passport and map and provisions for a trip, but unless it’s farther away than I think (my poor van has 263,000 miles on it already) then I’ll make time to drive up there and take them up on their tour offer. I rather doubt I’ll get to, but I’ll do it. Maybe Brooke and/or Trent would like to join me. 😉

  261. Great idea Rebeckah, please post here when you are able to do it.

  262. Unless you are really into schools Rebeckah visiting that school in Bountiful is probably going to be boring.

    A new Supreme Court filing up. Would like to click and link but darn computer going slower the heck right now and time is limited.

  263. Well here it is. Hopefully no problems clicking it. Darn slow computer haven’t loaded it yet.

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Writ.PDF

  264. I think their writ is a waste of time and money and will come down to the same thing. There is no religious right to promote the illegal act of polygamy and there must be a real world definition of the beneficiary class. In ordinary churches who maintain religious trusts there are methods, documentation and appeals for gaining and losing membership. There is no way legally for them to have what they want in a trust document; actually I don’t think there is any way logically either since what they actually want is contradictory. Each and every one of them wants the Prophet to have total control AND to know that they as individuals will always be treated fairly. That’s how they ended up in court to start with.

  265. The motion for extraordinary relief is a joke.

    I’ll try to review it later in more detail.

    BTW, posted on factual errors in Brooke’s UEP tax article and blog entry over at my place.

  266. TBM
    I don’t have a password on your new site, so here is a comment on your fact checking – correct me if I am wrong (perhaps you addressed this) Wisan held the money up that was given (kicking and screaming) by the FLDS for past due occupancy because the FLDS initially filed a statement that essentially said they were reserving right to litigate, which meant the money could not actually be spent and had to be deposited in escrow. Then there was some push back from the courts so they back pedaled and said their statement wasn’t a legal statement of contestation just a public statement saying it wasn’t fair.
    Anyway what I remember is that the big chunk of money that the courts said had to be paid ended up not being liquid assets.

  267. Actually, Alin, I DO like schools. Or to be more accurate, I like the education process. I love seeing how different people approach learning and I feel that I get good ideas whenever I observe a classroom. This won’t be until March at the earliest, possibly later if we have a hard winter. Also, I’m well aware that the Bountiful Schools are under no obligation to allow me (a private citizen from another country) to visit. But I’m perfectly willing to give it a try and I’d absolutely LOVE to see first hand what I’ve been reading about. Perhaps personal interaction will change my view on things. (It’s doubtful but I try not to close my mind so tightly that nothing new leaks in.) 😀

  268. Re: Brooke Adams and perceived pro-FLDS bias.

    I had not been willing to concede a pro-FLDS bias on Brooke’s part until I started comparing her reporting with AP reports and other stories. I’m not sure it’s actual bias in support of FLDS. Perhaps it’s more of an unwillingness to make the FLDS angry for fear she’ll lose access to sources. But compare Brooke’s story (http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13601131) on the FLDS appeal alleging the UEP trust should have been terminated, not reformed, to this AP story from the Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D9BF1HN00.html). I think the average person would learn more from the AP story and gain a better perspective.

  269. Thanks Rebeckah. That school may very well eye opening for all of us. Due to the extremely high percentage going for higher education and the comparison of their test scores with the test scores of schools in the neighboring area they must be doing something right. Actually it may be just the school getting all the credit just like some schools in some areas getting all the blame for academic performance; it may be a case of parents stepping in and making sure their children apply themselves to the best of their ability.

  270. HHG, try again, I tweaked the settings. I am still getting used to WordPress from Blogger…

  271. Extremely high percentage going for higher education in Bountiful? I have posted a teacher’s union complaint that there is an extremely low graduation rate and low enrollment of girls in high school. Maybe the four boys who graduate from high school go on to college, but I think most of the kids quit to either work or have babies long before graduation.

  272. Texasconnie, I agree. Also, I think that people are ignoring the impact of editors over writers. A lot of time it’s the headline that annoys us and that’s often done by the editor. I think it’s funny that the strongly pro-FLDS think she’s biased against them. But all in all, I get the feeling that since she’s been talking about layoffs and such, she’s not really trying that hard.

  273. Maybe when there are accusastions from both sides about Brooke’s coverage of the FLDS, it is a good indication that she is just a good journalist. Kind of reminds me of what they say about ministers – if all their parishioners think they are flawless, then they probably are not doing their job.

  274. Linda, I would agree to an extent, except that I’ve caught her in some serious errors and/or admissions and I’m just an amateur. Hard to say what’s going on behind the scenes.

  275. Lambkins I think Brooke gets jostled from both sides and I trust she has battened down her hatches because there is a big storm up ahead. Brooke has always held empathy for polygamy and she maintains her access with the FLDS by over compensating their side and it’s fairly obvious to anyone who reads her coverage. When the broader Press covers the same story(s) it is even more apparent so as the trials elapse see if Brooke’s perspective doesn’t reflect an inherent slant.

    The Bountiful schools were critiqued for not having computer class access to the internet and the students were only allowed access to a ‘closed loop’ system. I think I appreciate why that is but the Canadian Education Ministry hadn’t expected limited use of the technology provided to the schools and directed that this condition of no access be remedied. It’s subtle little differences such as no internet access which points to a fundamentalist hidden agenda.

  276. Omissions. Not admissions. I have a cold. My brain isn’t working.

  277. But to stress that, some of her bias is evident in what she DOESN’T cover. If a really stinky story comes out of wrong doing by the FLDS, expect it to some from Deseret News or some where in Texas, Arizona or Colorado. Sometimes if the Trib covers it at all, they will just run a brief AP story. That way the stink doesn’t get on Brooke.

  278. Betty and cajIM,

    Perhaps Brooke has come to respect some, if not all, the FLDS people she has interviewed and tries not to generalize.

    I hesitate judging those who believe differently than I do, for I suspect that in the long run, God will have the last say – and it just might surprise all of us. Somehow though, I think truthfulness and mercy are always signs of what is right and God’s way.

    Sometimes I give my husband a bit of a fit about sermons that dont leave enough room for individuality and freedom for each of His children. I cant tell him all his sermons are great. It’s my job to keep him humble : )

  279. Linda Lamb,

    First, I’m not judging most of the individuals in the group, no matter what duane says. I suspect the vast majority of the rank and file are sincere in their attempt to serve God.

    Second, while I agree with you in general about not judging the beliefs of others, there is a point where I draw the line. I have no problem with Pagans, for instance, I don’t even mind if they are sky clad as long as they have tall hedges around their grove, but torturing animals to read the future is right out. I know many fine Moslems, having worked in IT contracting for 25 years, but that doesn’t mean I think that the Taliban are a nice bunch of guys. I know some fine Mormons of the LDS variety, some of whom post here, who have given me no reason to think that I am less of a sinner than they are. But I really have a problem with the idea that women and children are property and I’m not going to be ashamed of that or think of it as either pride or prejudice. I honestly dislike the teaching that a woman gets into heaven at the invitation of her husband, and not at the invitation of Jesus Christ. If you call yourself a Christian, to me that’s not a trivial detail.

    Third, there are some individuals in the FLDS who have presented me with enough evidence of heinous crimes that I am quite willing to judge them, in fact, I’m sort of itching to see some earthly justice meted out. And I’m not ashamed of that. Not for a minute.

    You are either very uninformed about the crimes that have happened or you are just plain shucking and jivving us. This is not about a bad sermon. This is about human slavery, racketeering and several other “BAD ACTS”, legal and illegal.

  280. And while I’m full of righteous indignation, I think I will point out that if Brooke really cared about the people she has learned to respect should would lay down chapter and verse how they have been SCREWED by their leadership. How they have been lied, manipulated, insulted and used to build up a rich harem for a group of evil men.

    Instead she carefully tippie toes around anything close to that. I think her motivations are all about keeping Brooke employed and getting more journalism awards for being able to talk to them when no one else can.

  281. Betty said :
    “Extremely high percentage going for higher education in Bountiful? I have posted a teacher’s union complaint that there is an extremely low graduation rate and low enrollment of girls in high school. Maybe the four boys who graduate from high school go on to college, but I think most of the kids quit to either work or have babies long before graduation.”

    Betty, you are correct – there may be a high rate of adolescents seeking out higher education after attending the Bountiful high school, but recall what Jane Blackmore, (the nurse midwife and first wife of Winston Blackmore), said about the school – she said that her son was forced to quit high school and go to work, and she stated that many adolescent girls could not complete high school and were compelled to get married. Jane left her husband and the FLDS of Bountiful due to the fact that her youngest daughter wanted to be a scientist, and Jane doubted that her daughter would be permitted to pursue that career.

  282. Well Betty, once again I have expressed my opinion and you assume I am uninformed or “shucking and jivving.” Not familiar with that terminology. The accusations and reports are deeply disturbing and I hope justice will come for everyone involved. I think of the FLDS a little like our friends the Jews, who are a “peoplehood.” Their customs and beliefs are not the same as my Christian ones, particularly when it comes to eternal life, but we love and serve the same God. I guess that is the basis for my concern and respect for my FLDS friends.

  283. catwhisperer, actually it is all about “playing” with words…..for example a “high rate of graduates from the Bountiful High School seeking higher education” could be “factually” true, if you have 4 graduates a year and 3 seek higher education then……..la de da you got a “high rate of graduates”, they don’t tell you about the 100’s of adolescents that didn’t even get the chance to attend high school from the community because they were either put to work or put to motherhood.

  284. Linda,
    Look it up. You’re on the internet. And don’t play sweet Southern Belle with me, I was teethed on that stuff. I don’t think you are half as nice as you make out to be.

    You are so quick to tut tut about religious prejudice and you never say a darned word about how you would act if someone treated your daughter like the FLDS girls get treated. How about their “peoplehood”? What are we supposed to do when 12 year olds are traded like baseball cards and 16 year olds are denied a trip to the ER cause it might look bad for their rapist? Hold hands and sing Kumbaya? I don’t think those guys love and serve any God but their own egos and carnal desires. I think Merrill Jessop is about as holy as an outhouse, and his son Raymond maybe worse.

  285. Exactly, LadySadie. I suspect that the cull the smartest and most upper class boys, decide what skill or trade is needed in the community and those boys graduate and go to college while their sisters are rinsing out diapers in a sink.

  286. Linda

    “Perhaps Brooke has come to respect some, if not all, the FLDS people she has interviewed and tries not to generalize.”

    Respect “ALL” the FLDS..??? Ya mean the child molesters too? Certainly youve seen Warrens conviction, and his pictures french kissing children.

    And with the Dirty Dozen going to trial with strong evidence, you really think she respects them?

    She hasnt given one word about the new Church and Trust the Texas FLDS filed. Its recorded, its news, but it would give the Utah pligs heartburn.

    So she doesnt say a word.

  287. Betty

    “I honestly dislike the teaching that a woman gets into heaven at the invitation of her husband, and not at the invitation of Jesus Christ. If you call yourself a Christian, to me that’s not a trivial detail.”

    Not trivial at all, and certainly not Christian. But when you run a white slave cult, you have to find ways to hold the carrot high.

  288. Hey, if Linda wants us to know he/she admires criminals and finds their behavior to his/her taste, that’s a good thing for us decent folk to know.

  289. Linda, you know how you teach your little Sunday school students that Jews have horns on their heads? That’s not actually true.

  290. It is also true that LDS do not have horns. It is true that LDS believe in Jesus Christ. Does Ms Lamb teach that to her baptist SS class?

  291. Linda I can simply respond to your comment to me and Betty by pointing out that God’s mercy and love is available to all sinners. Using religion and teaching doctrine that violates existing laws whether it is for wedlock, statutory rape, child labor, civil rights, bigamy, child abuse, truancy, evidence destruction or frauds is a particularly rare and highly concerning aspect to these alleged FLDS Church convictions/indictments. Many of the apostates from this group end up shunned, homeless, alone and lose their faith in God. Aren’t you more deeply concerned that this crime wave of despicable acts are being perpetrated by a religious sect? The apostates of this group have been victims of these doctrines and I don’t hear you voice any concern about them, especially when you post on Bill Medvecky’s ‘Freethefldschildren’ blog. Don’t you believe the victims list of apostates, you say your informed but you give more expression to FLDS Church understanding and empathy than fairness or judgment would warrant.

    The next time you post on Bill’s blog pay more attention to the vulgarity and name calling they project onto us and the reception you have experienced from us yourself. Bill re-edits and deletes our posts and I don’t think you have ever had that happen to your posts here. So when your choosing to level your comments try criticizing Mr. Medvecky and see what transpires.

  292. She called God’s Chosen People a ‘peoplehood’ on a religious par with the FLDS. I’ll wager you $10 she’s never even met a Jew, Chemist. And $20 that she thinks she once saw one at the mall. And $50 that, yes, she thinks you are headed straight for hell.

    But I don’t actually think she teaches Sunday school anywhere because, for good or bad, evangelical Christians tend to categorize Jews as fellow believers in “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Evangelical Christians almost universally recognize the unique position Judaism holds in Christian history and eschatology.

  293. Any Christian surely knows and fears this verse:

    “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” (Matt 18:6)

    But we should also know and fear this verse:

    “Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.” (Romans 1:32)

  294. Tell it, Sister Greetings !
    The Scriptures also demand that we pursue justice. Justice demands that we seek the prosecution of those individuals who violate the law, those who have sex with children, and those who cast aside excess male children as if they were garbage, the so called “Lost Boys”.
    Romans Chapter 13 commands obedience to the Law of the Land from all those who profess belief in Christ. The leadership of the FLDS has led their people into ruin, and they must pay for their crimes.

  295. Greetings,

    I have the upmost respect for Judaism and do have Jewish friends and neighbors. We worship the same God and although I believe in eternal life through Jesus Christ, I still feel that God has special provisions for His “Chosen people.”

    I am not presently teaching a SS class, nor presently directing a crisis pregnancy center, nor presently working in hospital human resources, but all those past positions are a part of who I am today. I dont care if you accuse me of pretending to be something I am not, but I thought you had a little more discernment than that. It would be funny to me if this whole thing was not so tragic.

    It’s disappointing to not be able to express my thoughts on here without causing such offense. Of course anyone with a heart is against abuse of any kind. I do sincerely hope and pray that justice will be served on behalf of all involved.

  296. Romans 13 :

    ” 1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

    6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

  297. catwhisperer,

    Wonderful texts from Romans (and the one from Matthew that Greetings gave) and they cannot be denied. I cant agree with breaking the law and teaching disrespect for the law. It is my belief that leaders or teachers are held at even a higher level of accountability for leading or teaching otherwise. Perhaps there are many who follow faithfully, but are following the wrong leader. I wonder how God judges them? It has always been a comfort to me to believe that God judges the intentions of my heart, not my bumbling messes.

  298. Linda,
    Those individuals responsible for disobedience to authority, as well as abuse of young girls, boys, and women will have to answer to God ultimately.
    They must also answer to the authorities, which have been appointed by God, in this lifetime.

  299. Yes, I agree.

  300. I will spare you my own curriculum vitae, in that it matters not a whit.

    The spiritual practice of the Jews is the keeping of the law, the same law which your savior said he came not to abolish but to fulfill. You may grieve that Jews do not recognize your savior, but never lose sight of the fact that they seek to perfect themselves through the very law which Jesus quoted and upheld and, in fact, was.

    So please explain to me how you equate the spiritual practice of the Chosen People with that of the FLDS, who, instead of striving to keep the law, prostitute their daughters and toss their sons to the wolves?

    As Psalm 104 says:

    I will set before my eyes
    no vile thing.
    The deeds of faithless men I hate;
    they will not cling to me.

    The DEEDS of faithless men I hate; I do not hate the men themselves. I do not even presume to hate WSJ or Wee Willie Winky (although I enjoy mocking them). But I do hate their deeds—they stink of the grave. And the smell of putrefaction does indeed cling to you, who defends these vile things.

  301. But I don’t actually think she teaches Sunday school anywhere because, for good or bad, evangelical Christians tend to categorize Jews as fellow believers in “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Evangelical Christians almost universally recognize the unique position Judaism holds in Christian history and eschatology.

    Greetings from New York said this on October 21, 2009 at 7:30 PM

    The DEEDS of faithless men I hate; I do not hate the men themselves. I do not even presume to hate WSJ or Wee Willie Winky (although I enjoy mocking them). But I do hate their deeds—they stink of the grave. And the smell of putrefaction does indeed cling to you, who defends these vile things.
    Greetings from New York said this on October 21, 2009 at 9:11 PM

    Couldn’t of said it better myself Greetings.

    Baptist Saved By Grace

  302. Linda Lamb: I think of the FLDS a little like our friends the Jews, who are a “peoplehood.” Their customs and beliefs are not the same as my Christian ones, particularly when it comes to eternal life, but we love and serve the same God.

    Mainstream Christians and Jews may love and serve the same God but FLDS are not Christians. I don’t know what they are, but there is a picture of their god at the top of this blog, his “revelations” are what they follow, not the words of Christ that we find in the New Testament.

    You don’t just make up your own Bible because the real one doesn’t promote or condone activities you would like to practice, then claim religious persecution because the law of the land forbids those practices.

  303. You people are playing with dynamite with the last leg of this conversation. It will go nowhere good, and everyone’s words will be misinterpreted.

  304. …those who cast aside excess male children as if they were garbage, the so called “Lost Boys”.
    =======================================================
    Perhaps all of us are guilty of this. Can you imagine parents reaction when their adult child finishes high school and comes home sitting on the couch smoking cigarettes, drinking beer, and watching Ophrah. I imagine most of us would only put up with that for so long before we suggest to our children it’s time to them to take responsibility for their own lives.

  305. Alin, if they have finished high school, then they aren’t CHILDREN!

    GROW A BRAIN!

  306. Alin said :

    “Perhaps all of us are guilty of this. Can you imagine parents reaction when their adult child finishes high school and comes home sitting on the couch smoking cigarettes, drinking beer, and watching Ophrah…”

    I don’t agree with anyone being shiftless.

    There is a distinct difference between a child being shiftless, and a situation where a parent or adult drops off excess male adolescents (who represent competition for adolescent females) in Salt Lake City, or in the desert, for imaginary acts of “disobedience” to FLDS authority, such as wearing a short sleeve shirt, or giving a necklace to a girl. You have presented a ridiculous analogy.

  307. GFNY, I thank you for saying, so articulately, all the things I too would have said.

    Linda Lamb: you say you have FLDS friends. Have you any ex-flds friends? Have you heard first-hand from such friends what they endured?

    By all means, pray for Merril and Willie and whoever. I pray for them to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit, to turn from the wrong path onto the right path, to truly honor God. When they do that, there will be no “religion” called “flds.” There will be no more child brides, money laundering, tax evasion, not among those who truly honor God.

  308. Hmmm, doesn’t anyone see the trying to use God to justify your positions only increases animosity.

    Hell, I’ve seen Evangelical Christians trying to save Catholics from going to hell. If they’re willing to believe that then what does anyone think they really think about Jewish folks?

    Some people read their Bibles and hear “judge not, lest ye be judged” other folks feel like they need to be like Samuel and slay every man, woman, and child of the Amalekytes.

  309. I don’t care what they beliefs are, so long as their actions don’t violate the law.

  310. Ron, I don’t use God. God uses me, and justifies me. It isn’t religion, it’s life.

    I’ve never tried to “save” anybody from “going to hell.” Whether or not somebody goes to hell has nothing to do with me.

    If I share my faith, it’s in order to share the great abundance of blessings that come with it. Some people feel their lives are abundant enough without God. I lay that at the cross and let God deal with it.

  311. Ron & Texasbluesman,
    Ditto…..I want them to obey laws.
    I leave their relationship up to God.
    I think the religion should end not because I have strong religious objections to it but because all of the history suggests that it is an experiment in human behavior that leads in an unrelenting fashion to abuse. My preference (end of the religion) is not law and not enforceable per se (nor should my preferences be enforceable unless they conform to law and the constitution).

  312. hhg

    I agree 100%. God is God and secular law is secular law. They really exist on separate planes and shouldn’t intersect. Unfortunately when they do intersect, chaos usually ensues.

  313. i just think that they should have to follow the same laws as everyone else regardless of religion. if they didn’t, what would stop any and everyone who wanted to break the law from forming a religion that believed in whatever they wanted to do.

  314. The First Reformed Church of Moon Shine! Yeehaw!

  315. Yeah, I wasn’t trying to discuss religion. I was objecting to the idea that all religious beliefs deserve the same respect. Sorry, but no. I have a deep respect for the ability of humans to cook up crazy and sick ideas and blame them on God.

  316. My point, Ron, was not to interject religion into this discussion but to take exception to Linda Lamb’s own religiosity. Because she purports that her sympathetic argument is based on her faith, I feel obliged to point out how unlikely it is that an evangelical Christian would equate the FLDS and Jews. I am hoisting her on her own petard, if you will.

    Evangelical support of Israel is an established fact. A 2003 Pew study found that other than Jews, American evangelicals were the most likely religious group to support Israel, and by a significant margin—55% of evangelicals vs. 41% of Americans overall vs. 24% of non-religious Americans. (Within every strand of belief, traditionalists are most likely to be pro-Israel.)

    Conventional wisdom is that this is rooted in dispensationalist theology, which is the most common Baptist eschatology. I think another factor has to be how much Bible study evangelicals do, because it gives them a familiarity with Judaism and Israel that most Americans don’t have.

    As an example, I was in a church today which was founded in 1917 in the Pentecostal-Evangelical movement. It was an interesting and beautiful place, and I asked to see the sanctuary when my meeting was done. There were two large flags near the altar—an American one and an Israeli one.

  317. “If I share my faith, it’s in order to share the great abundance of blessings that come with it. Some people feel their lives are abundant enough without God. I lay that at the cross and let God deal with it.”

    I admire that, Rattle. When I was born-again I shared along the same lines. I felt blessed by my relationship and wanted others to feel the same blessings. I never really bought the idea of Hell. It doesn’t square with a loving God.

  318. And I think the fact that they should be following the law because it IS the law is self-evident.

  319. Ron said
    “….God is God and secular law is secular law. They really exist on separate planes and shouldn’t intersect.”
    Concur – the New Testament clearly reinforces that concept in that all those who believe in Christ should obey the Law of the Land in which they live. It is a commandment. (Romans 13 : 1-5)

  320. Well, it looks like Brooke isn’t going to post my responses to MA’s personal attacks on me on her blog, so I’ll do an end run and post them here. (Warning, I’m posting several in a row — not the same, but I’m responding to several different points.)

  321. Not sure why these didn’t make it through, so if anyone has suggestions as to where I’m being offensive, please chime in.

    1. “Rebeckah how do you know the girl in question didn’t refuse medical care?”
    All I know is what I read in Warren’s dictations. There was no indication that the wishes of the girl ever came into question. Since she was going through a difficult labor, there is EVERY reason for mature adults to have helped her through it in the safest possible way. You may indulge in wishful thinking all you like. I will continue to make my best assessment based on the words of the leaders that I already have read, not imagine something to soothe my conscience.

  322. “In my town a woman dumped her baby in the dumpster to die, does that mean every person in my town are criminals Rebeckah? Does that mean all people living in secular soceity are criminals Rebeckah?”
    Why are you asking me? I haven’t accused every members of any town of being criminals nor do I know anything about your town. I have brought up specific cases of crime and neglect and pointed them out. I’m sorry if that offends you but I’m certainly not going to stop. By the way, am *I* somehow guilty of the “trail of tears”? Why do you keep bringing up these kinds of atrocities and implying that everyone today is either guilty of them or would condone them and then turn around and argue that everyone in Short Creek shouldn’t be labeled criminals? Which is it, MA? Are we all guilty of what our ancestors have done, or are we only guilty of the crimes we have specificially committed. I DO NOT appreciate your continued attacks. If you want to derail the conversation I will continue to point it out but that also doesn’t make me guilty of any crimes.

  323. Rebeckah,
    How young was the girl who refused medical care ?
    Was she of age where she could competently make such a decision?

  324. “Warren Jeffs made grave errors, but that does not mean every single person that practices the religion are criminals.”

    I’ve never claimed it does. Please be so kind as to stop accusing me of that OR of wishing anyone to starve or become homeless. I am hardly guilty of THEIR financial decisions.

  325. I believe she was 16. However, after three days of strong labor I strongly suspect few women, much less teen girls, are capable of making decisions beyond, “Drug me already!”

  326. “Allowed to die out? How do you do that, Buster? Like with the Indians on the trail of tears?”

    I got the impression from the interview that he meant for it to happen naturally by educating the children well enough that they’d know they had real options in life rather than simply following the lies of their leaders. After all we all know that the lie that all women who leave the FLDS will be turned into prostitutes has been exposed, right?

  327. Annnnddd, last but not least.

    I don’t know if she intended to post them at some point or not, but it certainly appears that newer posts are already up, so I suspect she chose not. Any suggestions? Was I being too confrontational? If so, why was my confrontation bad and MA’s acceptable? I do not understand these kinds of distinctions.

    “The fact that it was entered into willingly by members of the faithful is also important. They entered into this “pact” knowing full well that if they were to fall into sin, or other such state as to render them unworthy, they would lose their holdings in the trust.”

    The fact that matters, Gina, is that you can’t enter into an illegal “pact”, whether you want to or not. There are two issues which caused the Trust to be dissolved. One is the issue of “unjust enrichment”, which as FA and others have been pointed out could be fought in court. The second was the leader draining the trust to form another trust elsewhere. Whether the “beneficiaries” agreed to it or not, it was an illegal act. If the FLDS had chosen to cooperate with those trying to structure the UEP in a legal manner then this would have been over already. But for 5 years the FLDS have been throwing a major temper tantrum at being held to the same legal standards as the rest of the world and now their hens are coming home to roost. I take no pleasure in the increased suffering of the rank and file of the FLDS. I sincerely hope that they take the time to learn for themselves what the law requires and to start living a life free of the threat of poverty, isolation, and legal repercussions for their choices.

  328. Good job, Rebeckah. I only worry that it will draw MA here.

  329. So, was I being rude, argumentative, too confrontational? I’m not sure why MA’s posts were accepted and mine rejected. Any thoughts on that? (I really hate trying to figure out social rules — especially without specific examples to help me wrap my brain around ’em.)

  330. Rebeckah,
    Nothing that you wrote is offensive – what you wrote should have been posted.
    Is a 16 year old considered competent to make medical decisions for herself in Utah or Arizona when she is in extremis, medically speaking ?

  331. Rebeckah,
    You were being emphatic (I think) which is not confrontational unless the people reading it are unable to entertain a difference of opinion in which case they will interpret it as confrontational. What is truly weird is how Ma’s comments went through….

  332. Rebeckah, you can hardly navigate Brooke’s blog by conventional social rules. You might as well try reading chicken entrails to figure out by what criteria she lets posts go through. (Which is why I never go there anymore, unless someone points out something unusually entertaining.)

    But having said that, your responses were fine.

  333. There are certain circumstances in which a child is able to make his or her own medical decisions: if married, in the military, self-supporting and not living at home, or if he or she has a child. Most states also allow kids to seek treatment on their own for sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancy, or substance abuse.

    In most other circumstances, parents make medical decisions for their children until age 18. In the absence of a parent, medical professionals are empowered to treat minors if the absence of treatment will harm the child, which it surely did in this case (anyone arguing otherwise has never been in labor).

    Having said that, if a parent or anyone else in authority is advocating dangerous, reckless or imprudent care (or lack of care) for a child, it’s the medical professional’s legal and ethical responsibility to advocate for that child.

    Although the girl met none of the legal criteria for emancipation, the situation is muddied because one of the medical professionals attending was her mother. But I believe she was also being attended by Dr. Lloyd H. Barlow, who would have had a legal and ethical requirement to seek additional treatment for her.

  334. Thank you Greetings. I very much appreciate it when someone is willing to evaluate situations like this for me. I’m better than I used to be but many years of unintentional offenses have left me unsure of my own “take” on what’s appropriate and what isn’t. Obviously, I thought it was okay or I wouldn’t have written it and tried to post it, but when it didn’t go through I had to consider whether or not I had messed up again. So thanks for taking the time to evaluate it.

    ;D

  335. What’s funny about that, Rebeckah, is that your writing is lucid, fair, and objective. It’s hard to imagine you being offensive if you speak as you write.

  336. Greetings –
    That is my point. The girl, at age 16, and in extremis, medically speaking, does not have the right to refuse treatment in a hospital, unless the law in Utah or Arizona is much different than the law in NY. The doctor in question, as well as the midwife, should have ignored Warren Jeffs and the 16 yrs. old patient’s requests, and ordered immediate transport to a hospital for induction of labor.

  337. I tend to write better than I speak. When I see my words before presenting them to someone else I can word them more tactfully. When I simply speak — well, let’s just say I’m always appropriate. Mostly I’ve been trying to train myself to keep my big mouth shut. lol

  338. oops, that would be “I’m not always appropriate.”

    My son and daughter in law complain that I ramble on too much about my obsessions too. Especially this one. 😉

  339. to me lloyd barlow was as responsible for letting her stay in labor that long as anyone. he was following the dictates of warren jeffs rather than abiding by his oath as a doctor.

  340. I agree with you ProudTexas. I hope they throw the book at him when his trial comes. How many babies and girls have died because of these sorts of priorities? How can anyone find out?

  341. Wasn’t there a problem with birth and death certificates being registered in the various states? I’d asked, a long time back, about this and it was said that, specifically at YFZ, the births weren’t being registered in the state. And there was the ‘rumor’ of [unnamed] babies buried in various places….but I think that was resolved…?

  342. Correction….all births/deaths weren’t being registered…

  343. …those who cast aside excess male children as if they were garbage, the so called “Lost Boys”.
    =======================================================
    ALIN: Perhaps all of us are guilty of this. Can you imagine parents reaction when their adult child finishes high school and comes home sitting on the couch smoking cigarettes, drinking beer, and watching Ophrah. I imagine most of us would only put up with that for so long before we suggest to our children it’s time to them to take responsibility for their own lives.

    ____________________________

    Telling your kid to get a job is not comparable to the horrible practise of SHUNNING, which the FLDS does to get rid of the excess males.

  344. i agree mouse, there’s a difference between exiling your child and never speaking to them again as a teenager and simply telling them to get off their lazy butt and get a job.

    carolyn said that her oldest arthur had missed a lot of school because he had to go to work. this isn’t what i’m talking about either. they need to be in school. and they can work after school, but not work instead of school.

  345. I feel these children have lost out in two ways.

    First, their work options are limited to construction and other heavy labor (and homemaking for the girls). That may have been OK two generations ago, but if the southwest is anything like the northeast, those jobs are rapidly being taken over by immigrants. And it’s miserable in an economic downturn, since construction takes the hit faster and longer than any other discipline.

    Second, they have been deprived the opportunity to learn the intellectual skills of analysis, reasoning and intuition that come from studying language, history, science, art, and mathematics. Kids always groan, “Why do I have to learn this stuff? I’ll never use it.” The truth is that we are teaching them reasoning skills, not facts.

    Bless Carolyn for fighting for her children to have that opportunity!

  346. Telling your kid to get a job is not comparable to the horrible practise of SHUNNING, which the FLDS does to get rid of the excess males.
    ——————–
    It’s not just shunning – in some cases could probably qualify as child abandonment. And it’s not just males, either – when Zavenda (Young) Jessop received her golden ticket to YFZ, she left the five children from her previous marriage behind in Short Creek.

    Brooke Adams has spoken several times about Zavenda (see: The Plural Life “YFZ Ranch: A Look Back, Part Four”) but somehow this never came up. It was sickeningly to read Zavenda’s hypocritical speeches about wanting her kids back from CPS & wanting her family intact, when she had abandoned a whole other family in Short Creek.

    Woodruff Young – age 18
    Shannon Young – age 16
    Brigham Young – age 15
    Joseph Young – age 13
    Merilyn Young – age 11
    Zavenda Young – age 9

    I can’t imagine what it would be like to be abandoned by your mother at age nine.

  347. As I said, a lot of Brooke’s bias is in what ISN’T said. Zavenda is an excellent example.

  348. Brooke may have her way temporarily shutting up posters at the trib as well, so I’ve heard.

    What it is with her – lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

  349. I would be interest to know why Zavenda has children living elsewhere. If I was to ask she probably say as long as they are not being abused or neglected it’s none of your business.

  350. Other parents who abandon their children would probably also tell you that its none of your business, but since their biological father is deceased, someone else has to be taking care of them, a 9 year old isn’t old enough to take care of themselves.

  351. As I said, a lot of Brooke’s bias is in what ISN’T said.
    —————–
    Yes, if everyone could just stop mentioning all that nasty child abuse and RICO stuff, everything would be so much NICER.

  352. Alin, I’m not sure what you mean by “it’s none of your business.” Of course not, legally, that is an obvious point. But this is one huge chat room, and your’re chatting too, about things that are, rigorously speaking, none of your business.

    For someone like myself, it is stunningly incomprehensible that a mother would leave behind 6 of her children, even with the provision that you mentioned. The reaaction is what is being talked about, not the legal status.

    So explain please.

  353. “I would be interest to know why Zavenda has children living elsewhere. If I was to ask she probably say as long as they are not being abused or neglected it’s none of your business.”

    It is something of a credibility issue, Alin. She was crying and whimpering that she wanted her dear children back when she has willingly abandoned 5 of her children. Kind of makes her devotion to these ones suspect. We’ve heard so often what “wonderful” mothers the FLDS women are, and now we learn that many of these wonderful mothers have abandoned their children, or have other women’s children, or have allowed the very underage marriages of their daughters to grown men, or other decidedly un-wonderful things. So yeah, I think it rather IS our business at this point. The FLDS have made claims and before anyone accepts them, they should investigate the credibility of those making the claims.

  354. It is something of a credibility issue, Alin. She was crying and whimpering that she wanted her dear children back when she has willingly abandoned 5 of her children. Kind of makes her devotion to these ones suspect.
    ====================================================
    The children I saw was happy to get home. Perhaps you want to punish them because their mother had children elsewhere I dunno. I’m still curious to the circumstances of Zevenda having children elsewhere, I’ve never stated otherwise.

    ***********

    ADMIN NOTE: Alinusara, your post was in auto – moderation due to your use of the word “curious” – the name of a banned poster. Your comment allowed. – ADMIN

  355. She was crying and whimpering that she wanted her dear children back when she has willingly abandoned 5 of her children.
    ==========================================================
    Strange. I seen lots of FLDS mothers crying and whimpering but I’ve never seen Zalenda until she granted that interview with Brookes. Perhaps you can be more specific about whom you seen crying.

  356. Strange. I seen lots of FLDS mothers crying and whimpering but I’ve never seen Zalenda until she granted that interview with Brookes. Perhaps you can be more specific about whom you seen crying.
    ————
    I guess you weren’t paying attention very well.

    It’s “Zavenda” not “Zalenda” – that should help you with your Google search.

  357. Hey A-li-n, while you are asking Zavenda about the children she abandoned, ask her about all the wives and other children her husband Edson abandoned, like:

    Elaine – Wife
    Hyrum – son – 17
    Lydia – daughter – 16
    Anna May – daughter – 13
    Leslie – son – 12
    Myles – son – 10
    Samantha – daughter – 8
    Lucy – daughter 7
    Oakley – son – 3

    Sara – Wife
    Daniel – son – 18
    Violet – daughter – 17
    David – son – 15
    Sara – daughter – 14
    Karen – daughter – 12
    William – son – 11
    Veda – daughter – 9
    Suzanne – daughter 8
    Ivan – son – 5
    Leah – daughter – 3

    May – wife
    Edson – son – 13
    Rose – daughter – 11
    Marrianne – daughter – 9
    Lenora – daughter – 7
    Corlyn – son – 6
    Mason – son – 3

    Permelia – wife
    Johnson – son – 18
    Carla – daughter – 13
    Herber – son – 11
    Jeremiah – son – 10
    Melinda – daughter – 8
    Seth – son – 6
    Randell – son – 4
    Nan – daughter – 2

  358. It is my understanding that Warren was not allowing children over the age of 8 to go to the YFZ.

    That is probably why Zavenda left the ones 9 and older in the Creek.

  359. Heh! His previous wives must not have liked him. Hopefully he was granted liberal visitation by the courts.

  360. Funny how people act like someone never been divorced before or broke up with their girlfriend or boyfriend. Perhaps we should change the laws so that once children are conceived couples are forbidden to separate.

  361. A-li-n, get real, we are talking about the “all about family” FLDS, here, you know the “holier” than anyone else FLDS. You know the ones that “have” to practice plural marriage or they can’t get into the “highest” level of heaven, FLDS. The FLDS that don’t want you to know that they abandon women and children right and left.

  362. Alin knows, Sadie. Alin is just trolling, as usual.

    Fact is, Alin, Zavenda’s motherly instincts were obviously not as strong as FLDS PR wants the public to believe. She has/had no problem with abandoning children for spiritual brownie points. Evidence points more and more towards this being an accepted and normal event. Also, trying to compare her abandonment of her children with a “divorce” is assinine, as their father is DEAD not excommunicated for failing to wipe his nose in a holy enough manner.

  363. It is my understanding that Warren was not allowing children over the age of 8 to go to the YFZ. That is probably why Zavenda left the ones 9 and older in the Creek.
    ————
    That doesn’t make sense. I didn’t see any indication that there wasn’t a full spread of ages at YFZ.

    We definitely know there were children there aged 12, 13 & 14.

  364. Also, trying to compare her abandonment of her children with a “divorce” is assinine…
    =======================================================
    I was talking about Edson since someone brought him up. I hesitate to guess why Zavenda has children elsewhere but she must have figured it’s in their own best interest. I’ve seen missionaries and servicemen and women make that same choice.

  365. Alin, I realllly do think you enjoy being so obtuse.There’s a big difference in being divorced and abandonment. 4 wives and 38 children were abandoned by these 2 when they went to YFZ to start a new life. They were tossed aside, with the other ‘unworthy’, in Short Creek. It does beg the question…who is caring for all of them? What happened to them all?
    “Hopefully he was granted liberal visitation by the courts.”
    This statement shows just how callous you really are. HE walked away and yet you think the courts would/should grant him visitation? What makes you think the wives went to court? That wouldn’t be ‘keeping sweet’ and taking a stand against the priesthood….and denying their spot in heaven…for eternal servitude. As we’ve seen with Carolyn’s case…”divorces” and child custody payments just don’t happen in this group, save for 1 or 2.
    And how, in this economy, does one pay upkeep on numerous wives and assorted children? This has always bothered me….where does the money come from to care for SO many famiy members?

  366. mc1199, In a lot of cases, the money comes from taxpayers. Since there can only be one legal wife, the others are legally single mothers and apply for food stamps or other public assistance.

  367. “I was talking about Edson since someone brought him up. I hesitate to guess why Zavenda has children elsewhere but she must have figured it’s in their own best interest. I’ve seen missionaries and servicemen and women make that same choice.”

    Gag! Sure, it was in her — I mean THEIR — best interests, although it wasn’t for the ones she had with her at the YFZ. Funny how it was the children of the dead husband that it was better for too. One might almost think she didn’t care about them or that their new daddy didn’t want them or….

  368. “4 wives and 38 children were abandoned by these 2 when they went to YFZ to start a new life. They were tossed aside, with the other ‘unworthy’, in Short Creek.”

    Oh no! I’m sure you’re wrong about that. I mean the sisterwives really, truly, super-de-duperty LOVE each other. Why, the FLDS is ALL about family, and love, and holiness (you know, they have to live FAR, FAR away from the evil gentiles so they don’t get any cooties).

  369. FLDS: We LOVE our children. Each and everyone is precious to me.
    US: Then why do you abandon so many of them.
    FLDS: It is out of love.
    US: Why do you neglect them by not buckling them up?
    FLDS: The law doesn’t require that we buckle up children on the farm.
    US: But it’s still safer. Don’t you want the children to be safe regardless of what the law says?
    FLDS: We LOVE our children.
    US: Why don’t you watch them so they don’t get run over by cars, trucks and heavy machinery.
    FLDS: We LOVE our children. They are safer with us.
    US: Why don’t you let them finish their educations?
    FLDS: We LOVE our children….

  370. This is from duane, 6 days ago, on Blues site, when I brought up “rumors” of some FLDS being on the dole in Texas.

    There hasn’t been any “food stamp abuse”, some in Short creek have received assistance but not in texas. Texas issues a “Lone star card” which looks like a credit card maybe that is what is causing the confusion. Pliggy himself said he received govt. assistance for a short period.

    And then he went on a tear about poll taxes and people’s discrimination towards the FLDS. He insists there is no FLDS use of public assistance in Texas.

  371. From us taxpayers mc1199, where did you think?

  372. So what’s the difference between a Lone Star Card and food stamps? Isn’t that sort of splitting hairs?

  373. No Betty. If they were using food stamps in Texas they were getting the food subsidy from some other state.

  374. Yes, Betty, that’s why I laughed when I saw duane trying to tell me they can’t have been using “food stamps”….cuz they don’t have those in Texas….they have Lone Star Cards. So, having the card makes them NOT using food stamps? His usual logic and attempt at sleight of hand!

  375. I recall it was AZ footing the bill for some Texas FLDS. Don’t know if AZ does that any more now that the word’s out, but who knows.

  376. Food Stamps, Lone Star Card = public assistance. If they are getting stamps from Utah/Arizona while living in Texas…as I have read several times…then they are still on the dole, despite how duane tries to present it. I was hoping cement would add his 5 cents [inflation costs] about the issue,since he lived at YFZ for awhile.

  377. I have a friend who was a ‘welfare investigator’ and even when she could prove fraud, the city/state rarely did anything about it. She found it very frustrarting! And those who lost their benefits, usually got them back within 6 mo, claiming hardship. It’s sort of a losing battle. It’s all a racket that taxpayers fund. And, yes I know there are some REAL families that need it, but for many, it’s a way of life…why work when the city/state will pay you. [Stepping down from my soap box, now.]

  378. I never went to YFZ.

  379. I think many of the slaves at YFZ did not use any government assistance, but it’s less than honest, and the article at “Truth Will Prevail” shows a dishonest nature when the church is continually asking for help, and those sending money to the church are on welfare, and yet you say you are not receiving benefits. Or when an employer reduces your wage in order to send to the prophet, and now you qualify. Don’t try to convince me that the people writing these articles or making these claims are unaware that is going on. It hurts to see this type of dishonesty because it hits so close to home.

  380. Cement,
    You should consider talking to someone in the government about what truly happened when you were in the group, with regard to the welfare issue, if you haven’t done so already.

  381. Do you really think I haven’t?

  382. Thank you cement. I thought you’d lived there, for a time. My error. But I do appreciate your insight, as many of us do.

  383. Glad to hear it. I appreciate your bravery, considering that there are no doubt members of your family who are still there.

  384. What I meant was the “lone star card” looks like a credit card. My point being they used a credit card and someone confused it with a “lone star” card.
    Even if they had a “lone star” card, so what? If they qualify for govt. benefits, then good to see that govt. assistance is being used to help them feed their children.

  385. “Even if they had a “lone star” card, so what?”

    If they were using a food stamp card then that would prove yet another lie in their PR campaign. They said the didn’t receive benefits, so if they are, either in Texas or in another state, then they lied. They may have worded their lie so that it wasn’t “technically” a lie if they were receiving food stamps in Arizona, but there was still a clear intent to deceive. I think the American public might just take exception to all the tax dollars that have been wasted on Warren Jeffs and his ideal of Zion. If I want to donate to the FLDS church I can do it on my own.

  386. If they were using a food stamp card then that would prove yet another lie in their PR campaign.
    =======================================================
    I thought it was Texas that stated that they wasn’t using assistance. Arizona something to the effect that Flora’s claims regarding the residents of YFZ was wrong.

  387. “‘I kept hoping this trial would go away,’ said Willie Jessop…”

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6683515.html

    Too funny, there, Willie.

  388. Nice PR move by the FLDS, getting this positive piece from Brooke Adams published on the weekend before the trials begin in Texas. http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_13628846

  389. Rebeckah: If anyone is familiar with lying and distorting the truth it is ole dog duane. He does it so it is OK for the flds to do it in his mind.

  390. Its view of the local campus further soured when the college allowed Mohave County to lease property in 2004 for a law enforcement and social services center. Its parking lot often was used as a staging area for news media and law enforcement.

    That had a “chilling effect,” not only for the FLDS but for other students, Hammon said.

    You put law enforcement and social services at a place and it has a CHILLING effect? Hmmm, what does that say about the FLDS and their respect for the laws and providing real services to those who need them?

  391. You got it, Ron. It’s a roundabout admission that they know they’re breaking the law and don’t want any reminders of it.

  392. Texas Polygamist Women Called “Pimps”
    Former Sect Member Assails Them Ahead of First Trial of Fundamentalist Group’s Men on Child Sex Abuse Counts

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/24/earlyshow/saturday/main5417421.shtml

    Rise and shine…

  393. Creepy article on many fronts. First, I’m grossed out by the fact that many of the students are studying to be nurses and EMTs. What a way to ensure that the outside world doesn’t become concerned with questions about things like whether all births and deaths are registered, or the number of miscarried or stillborn babies that would be inevitable in any community with a shallow gene pool and limited access to good health care.

    I also don’t like that the campus is largely run by Centennial Park residents. It creeps me out to think about taking a creative writing class from that Timpson fellow.

  394. nearthecreek, I agree wholeheartedly. They breed the girls to be concubines when they reach puberty. Now they’re training nurses and EMTs to facilitate their crimes. A doctor and a nurse were present at the labor of the 16-year-old concubine of Raymond Jessop–the one who should have been taken to a hospital for medical care. But the prophet said no. The girls in college who want to be nurses — will their highest priority lie with the care of a patient, or with the prophet’s dictates?

  395. “Members of the fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints share a belief in multiple wives, being self-sufficient and dressing modestly.”

    I mentioned this line to my son while reading the article and oddly enough he caught the same nuance as I did. His response:

    “They don’t seem very self sufficient to me.”

    My take exactly. It is said so often that they believe in “self-sufficiency” but that seems rather ludicrious to me. Self sufficient individuals don’t engage in tax fraud, embezzlement of government funds, dishonest business practices or accept welfare, whether they qualify for it or not. The Amish are the closest to self sufficient that I’ve ever seen of an isolationist religion (and they aren’t truly self sufficient either — just a lot closer to it than anyone else I’ve seen.)

  396. I’m glad more of the girls are going to college. It means a couple of positive things. These particular girls are not likely to be starting their families at the tender age of 15 and they’ve got a chance at a marketable skill should they ever decide that they no longer believe in “the one true way”. On the other hand, I’d like to see a lot more neutral oversight in the medical care of the community. Medical care providers and law enforcement are two of the strongest lines of defense against abuse and exploitation of the vulnerable.

  397. For some raw numbers on their “self sufficint” behavior, see:

    The Costs of Generational Polygamy to Mohave County Taxpayers
    http://tripleap.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/ACT1037__COLORADO_CITY.68200740.pdf

    For every $1 in taxes they pay, they get $8 back in benefits. Hmmmm…

  398. cement –

    If you dont mind, could you send an address where you can receive email to fldstexas@aol.com

    Someone has asked me to send you something to look at.

  399. I think they are “self-sufficient” in the sense that they try to do everything themselves (raise food, make their own clothes, homeschool kids, etc.) rather than interacting with the Gentile world.

  400. I think that’s called “isolationist”, which i count as different than “self sufficient”.

    After all, if I am living on a desert island, yet get regular monthly shipments of food and supplies from an unseen benefactor, am I truly self sufficient or simply isolated most of the time?

    Big difference.

    Just because you run around in a hula skirt doesn’t make you a native.

  401. Oh, I agree with you Boots. They call themselves self-sufficient and the news media picks up the term, taking it at face value.

    BTW, Texas is going after another cult leader on bigamy charges. The trial of Yisrayl Hawkins, leader of the House of Yahweh, begins on Nov. 9. One of his followers has already been convicted on charges of sexual assault against his 11-year-old stepdaughter.

    Here’s the story: http://www.star-telegram.com/crime/story/1686685.html

  402. I’ll tag it isolationist also.

    They do not like our US nor State laws.

  403. They do not like our US nor State laws.
    ==================================================
    I dunno. I imagine they are pretty fond of that one about not taking children without due process.

  404. See Al in USA who lives at RA10, they got “due process.” A warrant was served and trained professionals saw underage girls with children.

    They acted on what they saw and the children were taken into custody. They again got due process by having a judge decided whether the children should remain in custody. They again got due process by allowing them to appeal the determination of whether those children should remain in custody. Ultimately as a result of all this DUE PROCESS the children were returned to them.

    So, don’t say they didn’t get DUE PROCESS. They got plenty of due process. Some will say that the process vindicated parents rights, others will say that due process failed post menstrual children. Either way these folks got plenty of DUE PROCESS.

  405. Alin—If they feel they were sooo wronged, why haven’t they tried to sue the state? My guess….more dirty little secrets would be brought to light. So they can cry all they want about ‘due process’….either put up or shut up. Sue or stop yapping!

  406. Al seems to have the same problem with the government doing its job to protect the most vulnerable among us that Bile and Huge Ego do. He and Duane are buddies, possibly because of their shared belief that children bowing to parental and religious pressure to conform means an informed “consent”. The lot of them certainly seemsto feel that women and children do not deserve any protection at all. And when the government actually moves to enforce the laws protecting women and children, Al is right there with “I’m not aware…” that women and children might actually choose an emotionally healthy environment for themselves when they actually get the chance to learn about their options. For instance, women can actually leave the cult and get assistance to support themselves and their children WITHOUT being forced into prostitution. (Of course the FLDS play multiple partners without the women’s input so much that they might be a little confused as to just what the word “prostitute” means.)

  407. Near the Creek said ….”….Creepy article on many fronts. First, I’m grossed out by the fact that many of the students are studying to be nurses and EMTs….”
    Yes, Near the Creek, the Prophet doesn’t want any thoughtful physician who values the Hippocratic Oath near a patient who is a member of his flock.
    A physician who truly believed in the Oath would place the value of his / her patient’s life before the needs of the Prophet, and would not hesitate to report child abuse, or sexual contact with a minor, hence the Prophet hesitates to send anyone to medical school.

  408. This guy seems to think that Bill M is really heading to Texarkana to protest Monday’s Alamo cult hearing on the children.
    http://www.examiner.com/x-14537-Albany-CPS-and-Family-Court-Examiner~y2009m10d22-Protests-planned-for-October-2728-in-Texarkana-to-free-children-of-Tony-Alamo-Church-parents

  409. If Beth Karras was on the Early Show talking about Raymond’s trial, then does that mean that Court TV is covering the trial?

    Anybody in Texas know?

  410. A physician who truly believed in the Oath would place the value of his / her patient’s life before the needs of the Prophet, and would not hesitate to report child abuse, or sexual contact with a minor, hence the Prophet hesitates to send anyone to medical school.
    ====================================================
    The Hippocratic oath is very specific. “Do no harm”. I can see where a physician might consider harm in a girl losing the emotional support of her friends and family during pregnancy.

  411. Yea he might be thinking that, while most physicians would be thinking about a young teen age mother suffering in child birth who just might die from her prolonged labor.

    But, I can understand that would probably not be something an FLDS physician would be thinking about.

  412. Alin,

    Yeah, losing her life or her baby is trivial compared to that! What is WRONG with you?

  413. A-li-n, you will say anything stupid ole thing to try and defend these rapists won’t you. You’ve now sunk to a new low trying to find excuses for the doctor that helped these rapist hide their crimes.

  414. Yea he might be thinking that, while most physicians would be thinking about a young teen age mother suffering in child birth who just might die from her prolonged labor.
    ==================================================
    If you are talking about Dr. Barlow I don’t think he was there. The only thing we all know for sure is that there was a midwife in attendence.

  415. Alinusara10, if you would read the documents on this web site, you would already know that Dr. Barlow was consulted by the midwife who was very concerned about this young girl. He was completely aware of the dangerous situation this young teenage mother was in.

    You are really such a twit!

  416. Alinusara10, if you would read the documents on this web site, you would already know that Dr. Barlow was consulted by the midwife who was very concerned about this young girl. He was completely aware of the dangerous situation this young teenage mother was in.
    ========================================================
    Aye but he has to be attending in order to inject her with Pitocin.

  417. Actually I retract to a certain extent. Pitocin is used in order to induce labor and other then her having medical problems I’m not sure of the specifics. If Raymond gets convicted then they will bring this up during the punishment phaze. Perhaps at this point the woman in question will give us details. Perhaps Dr. Barlow will give us details as well.

  418. If a physician administers pitocin, he / she must be physically present, and it must take place in a hospital setting, not at home, to monitor for side effects. A physician should not monitor the status of an adolescent in labor for three days in person, not over the phone.

  419. Correction : a physician should monitor the status of an adolescent in labor in person, not over the phone.

  420. Alin said : “The Hippocratic oath is very specific. “Do no harm”. I can see where a physician might consider harm in a girl losing the emotional support of her friends and family during pregnancy.”

    How ridiculous. Her family and friends could have visited her in the hospital. A patient in labor over 12 hrs – 18 hrs. is at risk for infection of the membranes and infection of the neonate. Infection of the neonate could lead to cerebral palsy.
    Infection of the membranes is potentially disabling or life threatening for the mother. The first consideration here is for the physical welfare of the mother and child, and the welfare of both would have been best served by a timely trip to the hospital to induce labor between 12 – 18 hrs. after onset of labor, not three days later.

  421. You don’t read anything alinusara, not a damn thing!! You’ve not read the documents, dictations, nothing!!! The point was made by Warren himself the third day the girl was in labor, NOT to consult physican again, NOT to take the girl to the hospital, because Raymond might get into trouble.
    You FREAKING idiot!! Why do you come here??? You refuse to read, to understand what went on in any situation at YFZ ranch, and you in fact, say the stupidest , most ignorant things, I believe I’ve ever heard.

  422. Dr Barlow was AT the ranch, Sally consulted with Barlow,, had Barlow been any kind of a doctor, he would of loaded that girl UP in the car and taken her to the nearest hospital, instead that child suffered 72hrs in hard labor, she could of died, you TWIT!!

  423. Dr Barlow was obligated by law to appear in person to evaluate this patient. It was his responsibility by law as the supervising physician for the midwife. He should have evaluated the patient in labor in person, he should have written a note in her chart, and arranged for transport to the nearest hospital STAT. His obligation was / is clear. The midwife’s obligation was / is clear. Warren Jeff’s dictations are clear – he forbade transport of the patient, and the medical professionals had an obligation to ignore him to guarantee the welfare of their patient. They did not. All three should be held responsible in the matter of professional negligence in the care of this patient.

  424. DD, Al comes here to troll, pure and simple.

    Catwhisperer, REAL Doctors don’t run to a prophet when a patient’s life may be in danger. Neither do good mothers nor good midwives. Medical PROFESSIONALS use their medical judgement and act according to their best understanding of what is best for the patient. A religious leader should play no part in any of it. It just goes to reinforce the seriously substandard care amongst the faithful FLDS.

  425. I keep waiting for Alin to say..”But,she lived! So, in the end all was OK”. Seems to be the irrational thinking that as long as no one died or complained, it all worked out for the best! ARGH!

  426. Al in USA ra10 either never reads the documents or chooses to ignore what they say. The indictment of Raymond Jessop clearly states that Dr. Barlow was present during the girl’s labor.

    But then Al, Duane and friends are trolls and only come here to get a rise out of other commenters. It usually works.

  427. Anyone know if Sally Wayman Jeffs aka Nielsen is a certified midwife either in Texas or Utah? Being too lazy to look it up in case someone else already has (that means I’m not asking the alienusara).

    I was somewhat surprised not to see Sally’s name on the potential witness list. After all, she is the girls’s mother along with being expected to midwife a difficult delivery rather than to seek help outside of the group that some might call a cult.

    In one of Warren’s dictations, he talks about telling Nielsen to “encourage” Sally to have more confidence in her midwife duties.

    Sally Wayman Jeffs aka Nielsen is a good example of the harm that FLDS dogma can do to women.

  428. I’ll add that I think LeRoy Jeffs is less than a man for not intervening in the lives of his children.

    Not that he was any saint himself.

  429. Texas Twist, I am trying to ascertain if she is a registered nurse midwife.

  430. I thought you might be, catwhisperer.

    Love the screenname. If you can stop my green-eyed grey and white kitty from being an asshole, I can use your services.

  431. Sally Jeffs is not a registered midwife anywhere.

  432. According to Warren, when Janet was in trouble Sally sought the help of Dr. Barlow to “make the decisions”. But, of course Warren intructed Barlow to not go to the hospital. In a conversation with Wendell (Sally’s husband)Warren said that Sally had “feared” and that was one of the reasons Janet was having such a difficult time: because Sally had turned to the doctor instead of the Lord.

    Everyone of those men ought to pay dearly for what they put that girl through.

  433. So Sally is not a registered nurse, but is functioning as a midwife, and therefore is engaged in the practice of nursing without a license. This may be a crime in the state of Texas. I will have to check.

  434. Twist,
    It always helps to start with a breed of cat which is known for its sociability. The particular cat in the photo is a Distinguished Merit (beyond champion status) cream point doll faced Himalayan (Persian) cat. (Part Persian, part red Siamese) Himalayans are extremely trainable, and are frequently used in movies and in TV commercials. The cat in my picture is a feline assisted therapy cat; he has a special affinity for people with Alzheimers, as well as children. He was trained from birth to interact with people in nursing homes.
    He will jump in just about anyone’s lap. I have two of them.

  435. sweet cat – i just wish i wasn’t allergic to them. my son wants one very bad.

    i’m wondering if dr. barlow’s case is still pending. i know it was moved out of judge walther’s court.

  436. Still open as far as I know.

  437. twist – i saw the list of those that subpoenas were issued for and sally jeffs was on the list along with her daughter, annette and her daughter.

    i think we might need a trial thread – could we get one FLDS Texas?

  438. That makes more sense, pt.

    Trial thread is a good idea.

  439. What I found interesting in Carolyn Jessop’s book: when she had to take her disabled child to the hospital, the “Gentile” medical professionals, who the FLDS teach should be feared and not trusted, treated her with more care and respect than the FLDS ever did.

  440. Anon e mouse

    INDEED! And I wish the other captive women in the various sects knew that.

    Unfortunatley, it seems their lot is ususally just to suffer through it.

  441. Want to be trendy this Halloween? “You are but a visit to the thrift store and a French braid away (see Oprah’s sister-wife hair braid “how-to” video) from recreating the polygamist-fabness for Halloween! ” Halloween Haute, http://fabulouslyfrugalinnyc.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/halloween-haute/

  442. You FREAKING idiot!! Why do you come here??? You refuse to read, to understand what went on in any situation at YFZ ranch, and you in fact, say the stupidest , most ignorant things, I believe I’ve ever heard.
    ==========================================================
    I’m sorry but when I’m inundated with lies it becomes a full time job just to separate fact from fiction. I have no intention of poring for hours at a time over the dictations just to verify or worse, to try to prove a negative.

    Raymond never was in jeopardy because the woman when asked who the father of her child was could have replied, “none of your business” so I have no idea why the woman in question didn’t go to the hospital.

    One possible reason being, Dr. Barlow was a board certified doctor and they had a well stocked clinic so the only thing a hospital could have done was give her a emergency C section which turned out to be unnecessary.

  443. Oh look, mc1199,you were right

    Mc1199 said:

    I keep waiting for Alin to say..”But,she lived! So, in the end all was OK”. Seems to be the irrational thinking that as long as no one died or complained, it all worked out for the best! ARGH!

    mc1199 said this on October 25, 2009 at 6:00 PM

    Ali said:
    One possible reason being, Dr. Barlow was a board certified doctor and they had a well stocked clinic so the only thing a hospital could have done was give her a emergency C section which turned out to be unnecessary.

    Alinusara10 said this on October 26, 2009 at 10:03 AM

    Score two for mc1199!!!!

  444. Really? You would prefer the woman have a life time scar and a decreased chance of ever having natural childbirth?

  445. Brooke is twittering from the Raymomd Jessop trial site. Boots is there. Hope Brooke has a sweater so we don’t have to hear about how cold the courtroom is. Brooke and the Houston Chronicle both report that there are 10-12 flds in the jury pool.

  446. Alin said :

    “…One possible reason being, Dr. Barlow was a board certified doctor and they had a well stocked clinic so the only thing a hospital could have done was give her a emergency C section which turned out to be unnecessary….”

    This patient should have been transported to a hospital and induced in a reasonable time frame, as per the protocols of the American Academy of Obstetrics and Gynecology, not the protocols of the “Prophet,” who was more concerned with a cover up rather than patient care.

    Does Dr Barlow has equipment in his office to check arterial blood from the fetal scalp for pH? You realize that is required in prolonged labor to rule out fetal distress and hypoxia. Only hospitals have that.

    In short, the level of care provided to the patient meets YOUR definition of what is excellent, NOT the standards of the medical community for excellent care which have been established by the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

    You don’t even know what community standards are in medicine.

    You simply don’t allow a patient, particularly an adolescent,to be in labor for 3 days because it increases the risk of cerebral palsy for the child – a severely disabling illness. It also increases the risk of chorioamnionitis and endometritis for the mother, which would possibly make the mother infertile or even kill her.

    Dr Barlow is a family practitioner, not an obstetrician.
    The training of family practice doctors in deliveries, particularly difficult deliveries, is not as intensive or as
    thorough as the training of a board certified obstetrician.
    The standard of care for a patient with a difficult and protracted labor is consultation with a board certified obstetrician, and this young woman was never provided with the opportunity to have appropriate care consistent with community standards.

  447. Surely the FLDS potential jurors will not be allowed to serve. I know the prosecution would strike them. But can’t they ask the judge to omit them to begin with? Would like to hear from Ron and TxBluesman on how this would be handled in voir dire.

  448. Alin, no I would prefer for a 14yr old girl to be at a hospital during her first delivery, to many bad things can happen in your first pregnancy, and PROTECTING scum bags shouldnt be a doctor or midwiefs first poragattive! 72hrs is to long for any woman to be in labor. And Sally knew it!!
    If she had died, trust me, every adult on that ranch would be on trial.

  449. “There is usually no limit to the number of caesareans you can have. However, the more caesareans you have, the longer each operation will take and the higher your risk of serious complications grows.

    All caesareans carry a risk of developing adhesions as you heal. Adhesions are bands of scar tissue which can cause connecting organs in your abdomen to stick to each other or to the inside of your tummy wall.

    After one caesarean, about half of women have adhesions and this rises to 83 per cent after three caesareans. Adhesions can cause pain because they limit the movement of your internal organs. Occasionally, adhesions lead to fertility problems, as they can put pressure on or block fallopian tubes.

    If you have a lot of scar tissue it can be trickier for your obstetrician to make the opening in your uterus. This may mean the operation takes longer. It also increases the chance that your obstetrician makes an accidental cut in your bladder or bowel.

    Each caesarean you have also increases the risk of problems with the placenta in future pregnancies. These can include:

    retained placenta (placenta acreta), which is when the placenta embeds itself deeply in a caesarean scar
    low-lying placenta (placenta praevia)
    Trying to remove the placenta after the birth is very difficult in these cases, and can result in serious bleeding. In the worst case, it may mean you’ll need an operation to remove your uterus (hysterectomy). The risks of this happening are low, but if you’re planning to have more babies, it’s worth considering.”
    ===================================================
    Of course you are more than welcome to question the professional judgment of a board certified doctor.

  450. Btw, Deputydog this medical decision wasn’t made to protect the scumbag as you eloquently named it. The mother in question, when asked who is the father of your baby could have said “none of your business” and that would have been the end of it.

  451. Alin, do you live in Disneyworld?? Or on another planet? Yes, the decision was most defintely made to protect Raymond Jessop.. But if you would read the dictations with the pea brain you have, you would KNOW that!
    Oh wait??? No, if she had been taken to the hospital, the staff would have KNOWN she was still a little girl!! The raid would have taken place much sooner!! Ihope they hang the guy from the highest tree!!! and the other 11 to.

  452. “I’m sorry but when I’m inundated with lies it becomes a full time job just to separate fact from fiction. I have no intention of poring for hours at a time over the dictations just to verify or worse, to try to prove a negative.”

    Why would you assume they’re lies if you haven’t bothered to read the dictations? Oh yeah, I forgot, FLDS aren’t SUPPOSED to read the dictations. They have to wait for permission to know what their Prophet was up to.

    “Really? You would prefer the woman have a life time scar and a decreased chance of ever having natural childbirth?”

    A hospital could, and would, have done much more. A cesearan section would not have been the first choice and would only have been done in the event that the mother and/or baby were showing distress. However a hospital has plenty of resources in the event of a crisis, which three days of strong, yet fruitless labor, often presage. The fact is that mother and child were both placed in unnecessary danger because Warren made a medical decision he had no business making and the doctor and midwife (and mother) listened to him instead of using anything like professional judgement. It is a disgrace and a strong indication that the health and welfare of this girl (and her baby) were of less importance than that of the man who broke the law impregnating her.

  453. Well Rebeckah you have to understand,, Alin isnt a woman, so he doesnt have a clue as to what pain of childbirth is. He makes all kinds of assertions, but He has no facts, because he refuses to the read the evidence.
    Im even wondering if maybe he just graduated Elementary school?

  454. “Btw, Deputydog this medical decision wasn’t made to protect the scumbag as you eloquently named it. The mother in question, when asked who is the father of your baby could have said “none of your business” and that would have been the end of it.”

    BTW Al, Warren stated in his own words that the decision was made by him to prevent Raymond from encountering legal difficulties. It’s in the dictations. I realize you aren’t allowed to read them, being a good member of the FLDS and all, but you can’t call it a lie if you won’t take the time to look at it.

  455. Also, you are making a HUGE assumption in believing that the only help for this girl at a hospital would have been in the form of a cesearan. One might almost think you had swallowed the FLDS lies of how the evil gentile doctors treat people.

  456. Oh wait??? No, if she had been taken to the hospital, the staff would have KNOWN she was still a little girl!!
    =====================================================
    This is Texas we are talking about right? I’m sure they seen 15 or 16 year old pregnant women before.

    Why would you assume they’re lies if you haven’t bothered to read the dictations?
    ======================================================
    Mostly because I’ve seen Brooke forced to correct lies time and time again.

    It is a disgrace and a strong indication that the health and welfare of this girl (and her baby) were of less importance than that of the man who broke the law impregnating her.
    ====================================================
    Raymond had nothing to worry about. All this girl had to do is say none of your business when asked who the father of her baby was.

  457. Besides which, if a cesearian had been prescribed it does not necessarily result in the evils listed by Alin. Given competent doctors vaginal delivery can be accomplished …..(As I know by experience). The goal is to prevent infection probability of which gets higher and higher after 24 hours.

    Alin is trolling to frame the issue as well if they had gone to the hospital all they would have done is a C-section and anyhoo it wasn’t necessary after all..so there.
    The issue is what is the standard of medical care would be fore a 14 year old and how the decision is reached – in this case there was no medical decision made – a non-medical decision was made by the prophet and medical malpractice ensued in which those purporting to medical folks followed the decision against the standard of medical care.

    TROLL!

  458. Alin,, NO it doesnt work that way in Texas my dear.. Had she told them none of their business, She and her baby would have been taken in by CPS.
    Its a LAW in texas that medical staff, including doctors have to report underage pregnancies. You dont just “say” its none of your business in texas deary.

  459. Its okay with you Alin that this group of people can turn little girls into whores? Being passed from one husband to the other?
    Taking them out of state regardless what the parents want? Marrying them off and having some old dude assault them and impregnante them… Okay, I see where you stand on this issue.

  460. I used to think you were juat naive Alin, now I know your just damn stupid!

  461. The issue is what is the standard of medical care would be fore a 14 year old and how the decision is reached
    =============================================
    I’m sure you are more then welcome to make a complaint to the Texas state medical board.

  462. “Mostly because I’ve seen Brooke forced to correct lies time and time again.”

    Please show me ONE example of Brooke correcting something that someone said was in the dictations. Just one will do.

    “Raymond had nothing to worry about. All this girl had to do is say none of your business when asked who the father of her baby was.”

    I’m not the one you have to convince. Warren is the one who was afraid for Raymond’s continued freedom. Warren is the one who would rather see the girl and her child die or be damaged for life rather than risk a priesthood holder (and child abuser) to imprisonment. Kind of gives you a really good idea of how well they REALLY treat their women and children, doesn’t it?

  463. Alin,, NO it doesnt work that way in Texas my dear.. Had she told them none of their business, She and her baby would have been taken in by CPS.
    ================================================
    You mean the mother would have been held hostage in order to find the father of her baby? I can see a whole lot of women saying “whoa! nice plan sign me up now.”

    No wonder women put their lives at risk.

  464. “I’m sure you are more then welcome to make a complaint to the Texas state medical board.”

    I could be wrong but I believe medical board complaints generally have to come from a patient or someone connected to the case. However I’m sure all of this will come up in the good doctor’s trial and afterwards it will be very interesting to see what the Texas medical board does. The main impact of these decisions to US is that they show that the claims that women are highly regarded and children are precious is false. Those few chosen men who are accounted (for reasons I certainly can’t comprehend) as holy or righteous are given respect and honor. The other men, women and children are disposable garbage. Often their parents seem to join in with that thinking, as Sally, the midwife, was apparently also the girl’s mother. So she failed her as a mother TWICE, by giving her to be married at the age of 13 or 14 and then a second time by risking her life in labor. She also failed her as a midwife, since the patient’s welfare is supposed to be more important than the legal issues of the man claiming to be her husband.

  465. Actually complaints are filed everyday against doctors, teaches, etc for not filing on underage abuse or sexual assaults Alin. Im not so sure Dr Barlow isnt under investigation. He should be.
    And yes, it happens everyday Alin, that underage girls, who are NOT legally married and are pregnant, are investigated, and taken under CPS care.
    You dont like it,, I suggest you stay out of Texas.

  466. God, I hope you NEVER have children Alin!!

  467. I’m still waiting for Al to show me an instance of Brooke correcting something that was said in reference to Warren’s dictations, since those are what we are referring to that he refuses to read for himself. Of course, he’s not allowed to, but that’s no excuse for accusing people of lying with no evidence.

    I also notice he doesn’t have grounds to refute the observation that this girl and her baby’s life were of less value than Raymond’s freedom. Pretty sad, isn’t it? Even her mother didn’t think she was important enough to save at Raymond’s expense. No one cared if she lived or died, just as long as Raymond didn’t face the legal repercussions for impregnating an underage girl.

  468. AT 12 or 14 no girl is a WOMAN alin! Just becuase she started menses doesn’t mean her body is physcially ready for a child
    and yeah they had a clinic,, full of ovulation tests! The problem is, Sally Told Dr Barlow because she was scared, she was going to lose this little girl. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND!!

  469. Alin, it must be hard, going thru life with your hands over your eyes and ears so no new knowledge doesn’t seep in. Your own admission that you don’t read any evidence, good or bad, shows your unwillingness to even explore the assorted topics. ANYTHING FLDS is good…anything we say is BAD!!! Tunnel vision leads to tripping and falling, if ya can’t see where you’re going.

  470. Dr. Barlow is under indictment for 3 counts of failing to report child abuse, but no criminal charges have been filed against him in the matter of the teenager in labor. That instance is, however, mentioned in the indictment against Raymond Jessop in the matter that goes to trial this week. The indictment mentions that Dr. Barlow was present.

    According to a San Angelo news report, Dr. Barlow’s medical license may be under investigation. No decision has been made because his listing with the Texas Board of Medical Examiners shows that no disciplinary action has (yet) been taken. Nothing will be noted on his TBME file until their decision has been made.

  471. The young woman in question also did not receive appropriate pain management, in that she was not given the opportunity to have an epidural block for pain management performed by a board certified anesthesiologist while she was in labor.

    This is the standard of care for prolonged labor.

    BTW, I do have access to medical opinions – as I have previously stated, my husband is a physician with two board certifications, and the opinions expressed here are the opinions of a board certified obstetrician with extensive experience in high risk obstetrics my husband and I questioned about the issue.

    The medical decision making here was nothing more than CYA on the part of the “Prophet”, with no concern for the mother and child.

  472. Shepard Smith, on FOX news, had a promo about the trial..I’m waiting for that to come on. But, I will be most interested in Boot’s take on things. 10-12 flds in the jury pool will be very interesting. Especially when asked if they know the defendant and if they can pass impartial judgement.
    The segment for the trial will be on in a minute….I’ll be back after that.

  473. According to FOX…150 [of the 300 called] showed up for jury selection–about 25 have been dismissed, so far–there are flds in the courtroom [in prairie dress] as part of the pool. The story goes back over the ‘raid’ and the issues of ‘land rights’ and religious freedom.
    The story even made our local news today. So, I’m glad to see the larger news services picking up on the story.

  474. Boots is there. She said it’s mostly print media in Eldorado at this point, although one satellite truck did show up. It was an independent truck, probably contracted by one of the major networks (to avoid sending their own satellite truck). She is going to try phoning in a report to the new AAAP NewsLink site, http://tripleap.tumblr.com

    Reports I’ve heard say potential jurors have been reduced from 153 who reported down to about 120. It’s slow going and will probably extend till tomorrow.

  475. Something just popped into my mind…dangerous at times…but. Have ANY flds served in the military? I know it’s optional now, but back in the day you had to register at 18, did they? Or did they get out of serving by using a religious exemption of some sort?

  476. mc1199, a very few did serve many years ago, I think the last were during Vietnam.

  477. And actually one of the men indicted served during Vietnam, Emack.

  478. I am conflicted somewhat when it comes to Sally. Stay with me a minute . . .

    Her child (and grandchild) are in danger. She seeks the help of the ranch doctor who is in touch with Warren. Warren forbids them to go to the hospital and Barlow goes along with that. What were Sally’s other options? She couldn’t very well throw Janet over her shoulder and yell “Outta my way boys, I’m coming through” and climb in the nearest available vehicle and tear down the road with dust trailing behind her with Barlow, Wendell, and whoever else in hot pursuit (now there’s a scene for the movie of the week!). She would not have been allowed to leave the gate. If she had defied the men and somehow called 911 for an ambulance would it have been allowed through the gate? Doubt it – someone would have just called down and said it was a false alarm.

    We don’t know what and all was said to Sally by the men. We only know bits and pieces. I am not taking up for any wrongdoing by anyone, but I have wondered what could Sally really have done at that point? I am sure some of you have insights. Plus, remember the children don’t belong to the parents, they belong to the prophet. And that statement makes me want to barf.

    I remember when the ladies were first interviewed on Larry King Live. This was the program where Sally, her daughter Marrilyn, and Esther Jessop Barlow (Jeffs) were interviewed. There was a second row of ladies sitting behind them. After the interview, Larry did a short interview with Carolyn Jessop. He asked her if he knew these women he had just interviewed. She said she did and that Sally and Merrilyn were “sweethearts” (meaning that they were sweet people). She also added that all of those women on that program had had horrible things happen to them.

    Most of us have no idea what some of these women have gone through.

    Again, nothing justifies what was allowed to happen to Janet.

  479. You make good points, Carol. I’m assuming she didn’t insist that Janet needed a hospital but I could very well be wrong or, as you point out, she could have kept silent because she felt her position was hopeless. I am, however, unhappy that she allowed her daughter to be married off so young. It was a crime in and of itself.

  480. After the girl gave birth, Warren made a call to Sally, and told her, basically she had done wrong consulting Dr Barlow at all. She was the midwife and not to do it again…

  481. That’s because women are honored and respected in the FLDS faith — unless they have the nerve to think, feel, or need anything. Then they are out of line.

  482. Rebeckah, I agree that the women who have allowed their daughters to be married off at young ages have committed crimes. I think there needs to be accountability on the part of these women. Why have no women ever been charged when they are complicit in, for example, marrying a 12-year-old off to the so-called prophet?

  483. Warren basically told Sally to depend on the Lord in such cases, but Warren doesnt understand,, sometimes, the Lord wants us to get medical help when needed, thats what doctors are for.

  484. Warren understands perfectly, DD. Sometimes the Lord just requires that these girls and babies sacrifice their lives so that the priesthood holder never suffers any inconvenince for breaking the law. It’s sad, but it’s the Lord’s decision and these girls agreed to it in the pre-existence. 😦

  485. Rebeckah, you’r just determined to get my dander up. Ha!

  486. I’m of two minds on that one. On one hand, I agree that these women have broken the law and sacrificed their girls. On the other, I wonder if they are even able to think for themselves anymore. We hear so often how bright and articulate they are, and how they are making their own choices and happy about it, and then they do something so criminally negligent where their children are concerned. I can’t figure out if they’re victims or abusers…

  487. Rebekah,

    I couldn’t agree more about the underage marrying. It sickens me. But again, the mothers don’t have a say in the matter do they? They’re not asked if it’s alright with them that their fourteen year old is married to whomever. They are told that is what is going to happen. And if I remember correctly from Warren’s dictations, he married some girls off secretly because he didn’t trust their parents.

  488. lol, I’m sorry. A sarcasm bug hit me last night. 😆

  489. CarolfromCarolina, that’s true, but mothers who truly value their children will make the hard choices to protect them. Carolyn left, as have others. It isn’t easy and this group makes it even harder, but if you care enough, you make it happen somehow. So on some level these women are either willing to sacrifice their children, or they’ve just given up all hope in life and don’t care any more. I really wonder what the suicide rate IS in Short Creek. I rather suspect it’s far higher than reported — particularly since you should factor in all those who’ve left for one reason or another.

  490. Perhaps prosecuting one of these women may send the message that it is not okay to abandon your children or turn them over to perverts. I understand the women may be victims. But victims become abusers, and adult abusers are still held responsible for criminal acts, even if they have been abused in their past.

  491. I understand your point, Connie. It’s a tough call to make. I agree that adult abusers need to be held accountable, whether they were victimized in the past or not, but I’d hate to see the women become more afraid of the “gentile” world too. I WISH I had money and could bid on Berry Knoll. A gentile “embassy” would be just the thing for this group. 😉

  492. Rebekah, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I too believe any mother worth her salt woulld do whatever they had to in order to protect her children. That’s why these women are so hard to understand. And yes, I think they all ought to “escape”.

  493. Love the idea of a “gentile” embassy.

  494. Carolfromcarolina

    That really explains a lot – it shows the hopeless and captive situation the women and children are in – a locked and gated prison encampment where they grow gardens and milk cows, whild the prophet toots around the country, visiting only for fresh young childbrides.

    And this is in the USA.

  495. And it shouldn’t be happening in the USA. Question is, what are we willing to do about it?

  496. On a side note- I was just rereading Carolyn Jessop’s Wikipedia entry and it mentions her book “Escape” is in preproduction. I see it’s set for a 2011 movie release date. With the recent updates and new trials, it should be a great movie!

  497. You would be amazed how many women managed to LEAVE FLDS and take their children,, yes it was hard but they werent willing to give up thier daughters to OLD dudes.

  498. I think Bob Dylan’s Idiot Wind blows through wherever this crime family lives: it’s a wonder they still know how to breathe.

  499. They certainly know how to propagate.

  500. Deputy, Just wondering – do you know of any woman who managed to leave after going to YFZ? It seems like it would have been very hard for a woman to get her chidren off that ranch.

    Also I have read and I think perhaps I heard Willie say that no women have left the FLDS since the raid. I was really hoping that with many of them dispersed here and yon that they would find it easier to leave.

    Was that just PR spin from Willie or do you think it is true?

  501. Catwhisperer, thanks for clarifying your source of information. It was too well-reasoned to be our usual nonsense. In media accounts of young brides in the third world, a prominent theme is the damage done in improperly managed deliveries. Midwives (trained midwives, that is) are a great resource for normal pregnancies, but young mothers are inherently high-risk, and need to deliver in hospitals. Or better yet, not be impregnated at all.

    Every time I think about Janet’s delivery, the image in my mind is not of a blonde American struggling on a Texas ranch, but of an African girl delivering on a dirt floor, risking AIDS, vesicovaginal fistula, infection and death. It’s a crying shame that we tolerate that anywhere in the world, but we should tolerate it here in America?

    Sally Neilson was punished for just questioning the prophet’s judgment—what would the consequences have been for defying him? But I also know that if that had been my own daughter in labor, I’d have murdered my keepers had they tried to keep her from medical care. And considered it justified.

    All of which is to say that I can’t project myself into her situation. I’d have never ended up there in the first place. But inaction is its own kind of action, as anyone who’s studied passive-aggressive behavior understands.

    I do believe the line between abused and abuser is razor thin, which is why we rely on the law to be impartial. If Sally Neilson is chargeable, she should be charged. So should Dr. Barlow. Our sympathies have nothing to do with reality.

  502. I kinda think that was the point of YFZ – completely restrict the movements of children and any potential runner – while true blue flds could meander, it was like a giant house of hiding – they could keep people there for years just like Phillip Garrido did and who would be any wiser.

    It still makes me sick they let children return to that environment.

  503. carol, no I don’t know of any women who have left YFZ ranch, but I do know some of them are still living off the ranch in other towns.
    I hope they continue to live away from the ranch.

  504. some of them have to live off the ranch. all of those who were abused can only be at the ranch if their charged abuser doesn’t live there. so 2 of sally’s girls, 2 johnson girls, 1 of annette’s can’t live there. i’m not sure about those warren is accused of abusing since he’s locked away in arizona.

  505. Carolincarolina immediately following the YFZ Removal the original population was roughly broken int one-third portions, as follows: one-third went back to the YFZ Raunch, one-third began to reside in the Bexar County area in and around San Antonio and the remainder one-third were scattered across greater Texas. The children over the past year have not been seen outside on the YFZ Raunch as they were before the CPS Removal. It is rumored that some have left or not taking day-to-day instructions as before and the FLDS leadership is compromised in pressing the issues. To a greater degree things are more unraveled in the Hildale/Colorado City area as some FLDS Church members are opposed to Prophet Jeffs continuing leadership and Lyle Steeds Jeff is believed to be the replacement/acting Prophet. I think that convictions will lead to more open unrest and further fracturing of the FLDS leadership’s control, especially since they are scattered about geographically.

  506. Boots phoned in a report from Eldorado. http://tripleap.tumblr.com/

  507. i used to see flds women and children at wal mart on almost any given day. hadn’t seen them in a while until the other day when i saw a mother and 2 children, a boy and girl.

  508. Boots, if you are reading this, thanks for the update.

    Alinusara, thanks for the suggestion to report Dr Barlow to the
    Texas Board of Medical Examiners. I think that my husband
    and I will do just that. Good suggestion.

  509. Isn’t that woman who’s playing at midwifing / delivering babies illegal also in Texas?

  510. My grandmother was a midwife. She was an obstetrical nurse for many years but she still had to take special courses to qualify as a midwife. She did some home deliveries, and was a fan of them when there were no factors to indicate a risk during pregnancy, but I guarantee you she’d have had ANY teen in the hospital for their delivery — and more than a few things to say to any parents who contributed to their teen’s pregnancy.

  511. I believe that it is illegal for someone to practice as a midwife without a license to practice nursing in most states, however I would need to ascertain the law in Texas regarding this issue. I will query Ron or TBM about this.

  512. catwhisperer here is the information you want:

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/OC/htm/OC.203.htm

    SUBCHAPTER F. LICENSURE REQUIREMENTS

    Sec. 203.251. LICENSE REQUIRED. (a) A person may not practice midwifery unless the person holds a license issued under this chapter.
    (b) The department shall provide a license to each person who fulfills the licensing requirements.
    Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 388, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1999; amended 2005.

    Sec. 203.252. QUALIFICATIONS FOR INITIAL LICENSE. (a) A person qualifies to become a licensed midwife under this chapter if the person provides the program coordinator with documentary evidence that the person has:
    (1) satisfied each requirement for basic midwifery education; and
    (2) passed the comprehensive midwifery examination and jurisprudence examination required by this chapter.
    (b) The initial license must be issued before the midwife begins to practice midwifery and may be issued at any time during the year.
    (c) The term of the initial license begins on the date the requirements are met and extends through December 31 of the year in which the initial license is issued.
    Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 388, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1999; amended 2005.

  513. so it appears that sally needs to be reported too, along with any others who practice midwifery at the ranch.

  514. And I did an open records search here:

    http://legateway.dshs.state.tx.us/datamart/searchByName.do

    And Sally Neilson is NOT a licensed midwife.

  515. Thanks Lady Sadie. It looks like Sally doesn’t meet criteria for rendering nursing or midwifery services in Texas. I queried TBM, maybe
    he can further clarify if criminal charges are applicable here.

  516. Here is a little more info for you catwhisperer:

    http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/midwife/mw_complaint.shtm

    An individual who wishes to file a complaint against a licensed midwife, or a person who is practicing midwifery in Texas without a license, may write to:

    Complaints Management and Investigative Section
    P.O. Box 141369
    Austin, Texas 78714-1369

    or call 1-800-942-5540 to request the appropriate form or obtain more information. This number is for complaints only. Please direct routine calls and correspondence to the phone number and address on the “Contact Us” page.

    * Download a copy of the complaint form and instructions

  517. Thanks. I wonder how many other women Sally attempted to assist with labor & delivery, and I wonder how many other patients were damaged?

  518. Well. a more select jury pool appears to have been formed and tomorrow can end with a formed jury to begin the trial. Getting to the truth and guilt or innocence after 18 months of investigations and legal preparations.

  519. if judge walther gets a jury i plan on going to the trial on friday afternoon.

  520. just in case a jury doesn’t get picked and the trial has to be moved to san angelo, there has been jurors called for november that are basically on standby. in tom green county you get a jury summons for a particular month and then are told later when to show up. they could probably get a group together in a couple of days.

  521. With at least 11 more trials still set to go…[unless someone suddenly pleads out]…I wonder if that’s going to stretch the choice of jury pool to it’s limits, within the county. With just the sheer number of potential jurors needed, could some of the trials sent over to San Angelo…?

  522. Almost a certainty, mc1199.

    There are doubts that one can be seated in Schleicher County for this first one. Not all that out of the ordinary for small counties as I have seen it happen in other instances.

    The odds are higher against seating Schleicher County in these cases due to the media exposure, although in these small towns everyone seems to know quite a bit about a case even when there is no media coverage or half the town is related to the defendant or law enforcement.

    Wish I could be there tomorrow (Tuesday), because the voir dire will be interesting to sit in on.

  523. I was just reading Brookes piece on jury selection. I found these 4 inreresting. Brooke said there were approx 17 FLDS members in the 36 potential jurror group.

    *Is anyone related by blood to the defendant? 7 <<-The question didn't surprise me, but I thought there might be more hands up on that one.

    *Have you, a family member or anyone you know been the victim of a sexual crime? 15 <<-Any FLDS raise their hands? If they didn't, then this could mean they don't see babies having babies as a sex crime.

    *Is there anyone who thinks there is a problem with the state law that says someone can’t consent to sex if they are under the age of 17? 0 <<-No hands??? Yet it's been an FLDS practice for years! Interesting!

    *Who would not be willing to consider a sentence of two years probation if the defendant is found guilty of sexually assaulting a child? 37
    <<-UMMM, weren't there only 36 potential jurors? Who voted twice? LOL!

  524. Can’t believe the defense would even suggest probation. Just flabbergasted me.

  525. The flds are used to the light sentences they got in AZ and UT for child moleststaion, that is on the few ocassions they were actually ptocecuted for it.

  526. Well, welcome to Texas, boys. Don’t expect a slap on the wrist.

  527. It’s required that potential jurors be polled on their ability to give a probated sentence if it is a possibility within the law.

  528. TexasConnie it is a real possiblty for probation since it is seen as a first offense.

    It is not right, but if a jury is seated, it is an option.

  529. Depends on the jury and to a lesser extent the ability of the prosecutors.

    My court observation is that juries tend to be hinkier during the penalty phase.

  530. i think the 37 who had a problem with it were in the general group, not necessarily within the 36 she kept last night.

  531. TexasConnie

    It would be malpractice for the defense not to talk about probation.

  532. Thanks for the clarification on the probation question, Ron and texastwist. Having seen the mountain of evidence, it’s hard for me to imagine considering probation. I suppose it doesn’t seem like a first offense in my mind, but I understand that, legally speaking, it is. I’ve been waiting so long for these men to be held accountable for their crimes that I am ready to throw the proverbial book at them. Good thing (for them) I’m not on that jury. 🙂

  533. And precisely why it must be brought up before potential jurors.

    Personally, I couldn’t consider probation in this case from what I know at this point and think it a stretch that I could.

    Hopefully, potential jurors will be honest and the process works to cull out pre-determined bias toward either side.

    It doesn’t always work out that way.

  534. Thinking about the probation question – I suppose if I were a potential juror I’d say that I could consider probation; however, the likelihood that I would give someone guilty of sexual assault of a minor probation is very, very (how many more “very” should I add?) small.

  535. Today’s cyber-office pool — how many FLDS members in the jury pool will plead the Fifth during voir dire?

  536. The probation question is one of the reasons for the bad acts evidence in the punishment phase.

    Plus, if he gets probation, they’ll go for a bigamy conviction in a second trial.

  537. I also notice he doesn’t have grounds to refute the observation that this girl and her baby’s life were of less value than Raymond’s freedom.
    ========================================================
    I would refute that by stating that this girl and her baby’s freedom was of greater value then Raymond’s conviction. Sorry but as long as you value convictions over the needs of the suspected victim then you will always have these problems.

  538. AT 12 or 14 no girl is a WOMAN alin!
    =================================
    I thought the indictment stated she was 16? Not that it really matters since it’s still against the law but it gets wearisome correcting lies all the time.

  539. Sally has nothing to worry about since Dr. Barlow was the attending physician and she was there as an assistant.

  540. A-li-n, there you go spreading li-es again! Read the dictations

  541. A-li-n, there you go spreading li-es again! Read the dictations
    ======================================================
    That she was a midwife? Just because it’s written don’t make it so. Remember? Those very same dictations shows very clearly that Dr. Barlow was the attending which gives Sally an auxiliary role.

  542. “I would refute that by stating that this girl and her baby’s freedom was of greater value then Raymond’s conviction. Sorry but as long as you value convictions over the needs of the suspected victim then you will always have these problems.”

    Better dead than in CPS care, eh, Al? You value their lives so little. Not surprised though.

  543. Of course THEIR freedom was never enough of a factor to even be mentioned, it was all about RAYMOND’S freedom that Warren worried. (Says so in his dictations.)

    And your assumption that she would be snatched into CPS care is as baseless as your assumption that they’d perform a C-section the moment she walked through the hospital doors.

  544. My compooper is not allowing me to cut and paste in this blog today . . .

    Anyway, Alin keeps referring to the little girl in labor as a “woman” and states he/she has “no idea” why the girl didn’t choose to go to a hospital, as if anybody in hard labor could just get up and drive herself to an emergency room!

    This whole attempt of Alin’s to portray a 14 year old child running the show while enduring three days of hard labor is sick and twisted. But, blaming the victim is a common tactic when defending a rapist.

    I am a survivor of a midwife-attended home delivery that didn’t work out. After 24 hours of hard labor the decision to go to the hospital was made by the midwife. After arrival at the hospital, the decision to perform an emergency C-section was made by a doctor consulting with my family. I certainly was in no condition to make decisions, I trusted those who love me to make them in my best interest.

    And by the way, a C-section scar is practically invisible, unless you shave off everything and wear a bikini WAY too low – which don’t worry I have never done.

  545. This whole attempt of Alin’s to portray a 14 year old child running the show while enduring three days of hard labor is sick and twisted.
    ======================================
    I thought she was 16. It’s so wearisome correcting lies all the time.

  546. I thought she was 16. It’s so wearisome concocting lies all the time.

    Alinusara10 said this on October 27, 2009 at 11:14 AM

    ************

    Yes, I am sure you sit up nights making up more lies.

  547. The child was 16 when she had the child in question.

  548. Al, this time you are correct that the girl in labor was 16, not 14. As for being wearisome, it’s the price of being a troll. Your history has not been to correct lies but to twist and mislead and get contentious arguments started.

    As for Sally serving as midwife, it doesn’t matter that Dr. Barlow was present. Her responsibility to the patient is separate from his.

  549. Janet WAS 16 when she went through that ordeal, and yes Al, she was still a child. She couldn’t enter into legal contracts for herself so it is quite reasonable to expect the supposed adults around her to look out for her best interests. However NOT ONE of the adults seemed to care any more for her life or the life of her child than you do.

  550. Just curious, alienusara.

    Do you agree with the Texas statute that prevents it from being open season on 16-year-olds?

  551. Time to blow the whistle on this corrupt pseudo-medical enterprise

  552. Al is being disingenous again. (Odd for someone who gets “tired” of correcting lies. Apparently it’s okay in his worldview to spread half-lies, though.) Dr. Barlow wasn’t the “attending physician” until after Sally consulted him because Janet was having a hard time. So Sally IS guilty of practing midwifery without proper credentials. BOTH are guilty of placing the desires of their religious leader over the needs of their patient. NEITHER should be allowed to pretend to practice medicine any longer in my opinion.

  553. Amen, amen, amen to Catwhisperer and Rebeckah. No true medical professional would allow the abuse that goes on in plain sight on the YFZ compound. They are guilty of malpractice IMO. Or in Sally’s case, practicing medicine without a license.

  554. shoot yeah sally was practicing medicine without a license and she got jumped by warren for even thinking about contacting dr. barlow, much less thinking about taking her daughter to a hospital.

  555. If I was wrong when I mistated the age of the child then I apologize. But if she was 16 then she was still a minor and therefore all my points still apply, and it’s still a sick joke to suggest that she was running the show and making all the decisions re: her medical care.

    Good thing most of our society isn’t pressuring girls that age to start pumping out babies ASAP – our high schools would be full of pregnant teens.

    All so that some privileged old white guy will get rewarded with his own planet to rule over.

  556. Good quote: “These trials may demonstrate a clash between an asserted right to freedom of religion and the necessity of residents to abide by criminal laws,” says Jessica Levinson, adjunct professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. The message of these trials, she says, may be: “If you live in our country, you must abide by our criminal laws. Some activities are not made legal simply because one claims he is exercising his religious freedom.”

    link to article: http://is.gd/4EC6C

  557. Don’t know why Alin is flaunting the possbible side effects of C-sections as some kind of defense for Warren Jeff’s refusing hospital care for the child in labor, but I have had two of them and they were no big deal. I jog, bike, swim, hike and ski.

    PS gotta wonder how many FLDS women get to experience our beautiful world by hiking and skiing in the mountains and swimming and snorkeling in the ocean.

  558. Thats what alin does, they spout nonsense, twist truth, and like to stir the pot… Its called trolling!!!

  559. Swimming and snorkeling in the ocean are probably out. First of all, none of them seem to colonize near the ocean (which is kind of weird now that I think of it). Secondly they wear those dresses even when splashing in the creeks — in the ocean it would incredibly dangerous.

    Hiking they could manage. Skiing they could manage, although it wouldn’t be easy. Swimming, bad idea. 😉

  560. I just wonder what Al calls himself on Bile’s blog. Probably Diesel.

  561. “Some activities are not made legal simply because one claims he is exercising his religious freedom.”

    …………………………..

    Which is a good thing, considering Brigham Young’s preachings on Blood Atonement.

  562. Good thing most of our society isn’t pressuring girls that age to start pumping out babies ASAP – our high schools would be full of pregnant teens.
    =============================================================
    I thought Texas has the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country? They must be doing something wrong using your logic.

  563. I just wonder what Al calls himself on Bile’s blog. Probably Diesel.
    ==================================================
    If that one is Modern Pharisee I don’t post there. Seems more trouble then it worth so I only read.

  564. You know Al-in-usa teens can be lead to believe all sorts of wacky crap. Like, this boy is the love of my life – he’ll make a great father. Or perhaps this, “if I have sex with this wrinkly old dude, then I’ll get a glorious after life.”

  565. No Alin, actually Mississippi has the highest teen rate pregnancy rate,, again, you just insist on NOT doing your research

  566. But I would be willing to betcha, FLDS men have married and imprgenated more teens girls than any other state.

  567. “But I would be willing to betcha, FLDS men have married and imprgenated more teens girls than any other state.”

    Per capita, probably.

  568. I alinusara busy protecting those guys who were part of the recent child prostitution bust? Or do they have to claim GOD told them to pimp children in order to get Alin’s endless and uninformed apologies?

  569. No Alin, actually Mississippi has the highest teen rate pregnancy rate,, again, you just insist on NOT doing your research
    =========================================================
    “Texas has the nation’s highest teen birth rate – 63 births per 1,000 girls ages 15 to 19 in 2004, the most recent year for which state comparisons are available. In 1991, when teen births peaked nationally, it had the fifth highest rate.”

    Actually you are right. Texas has the nation teenage mother birth rate not pregnancy rate.

  570. I’m not sure who you are talking about Betty.

  571. Matters not one iota which state has the highest teen pregnancy rate. Issue is teen pregnancy at the YFZ Ranch, specifically the teenage girls Raymond Jessop “married.”

  572. Matters not one iota which state has the highest teen pregnancy rate. Issue is teen pregnancy at the YFZ Ranch, specifically the teenage girls Raymond Jessop “married.
    ===================================================
    Oh I agree. The only reason the subject came up is it was mentioned how full the schools would be of pregnant teens if all had similar thoughts of some of the FLDS and I reminded the person that the schools around in the Texas area has more pregnant teens then most schools in the nation.

  573. I don’t believe any of the 50 US States tracks any rate or percentage of teen pregnancy or births caused by claimed religion.

  574. Again your wrong Alin,, the new figures for 2009 were Mississippi has the largest teen birth rate.
    And by the way, MOST teens aren’t getting pregnant by 40yr old men. They aren’t married to a man with 9 wives, and most teens in other states continue staying in school to get their educations. NOT IN FLDS

  575. Some interviews with prospective jurors are brief, lasting no more than a minute. That was the case with Janet Jeffs, an FLDS member.

    ___________________________________

    From Brooke’s story. If this is Janet Jeffs Neilsen who is Warren’s sister, should would be an aunt to the victim and should have been dismissed long ago.

  576. I forgot to mention that Janet Jeffs is also the step-mother of the victim because both she and Sally are married to Wendell.

  577. NOT IN FLDS
    =======================================
    I thought Carolyn Jessop has a bachelor’s degree.

    Janet Jeffs is listed as a witness so if it’s the same Janet Jeffs she is definitely ineligible.

  578. I think the Janet who reported for jury duty would be Warren’s sister Janet, not his niece who is on the witness list.

  579. Will someone PLEASE send the FLDS a book of baby names so they will stop recycling the same ones over and over. Sounds like “this is my brother Darryl, and this is my other brother Darryl”, only “this is my wife Janet, and this is my other wife Janet”.

  580. “Again your wrong Alin,, the new figures for 2009 were Mississippi has the largest teen birth rate.”

    sigh, Isn’t it EXHAUSTING having to constantly correct Al’s lies? 😡

  581. I agree LadySadie. Maybe I should splurge and have one shipped from Barnes and Noble.

  582. And also proudtexas, remember Janet is not only a sister-wife to Sally, but to Sally’s daughter, Merrilyn. Yep, Sally was “reassigned” to her own daughter’s husband, Wendell who is also the husband of her sister-in-law, Janet. So I guess that makes older Janet a double aunt of the young Janet.

  583. If they don’t come up with new names, they should start adding a number to every person’s name. Just no way to keep up with the polygamists’ family tree.

  584. A woman can be “reassigned” to her own son-in-law? So she and her daughter are screwing the same man? Please tell me this isn’t true, it’s like the worst hillbilly/redneck/trailer trash scenario imaginable.

    PS Apologies to hillbillies, rednecks and trailer trash everywhere – none of you are this disgusting.

  585. Hey Anon E Mouse –

    Some of us resemble those remarks….

  586. yeah mouse, her daughter Merilyn was married to Wendell in 1999 and has a daughter by him born in 2000. Sally was “reassigned” to Wendell after her husband LeRoy was exed. Not sure of the date for Sally, but LeRoy was still in when his daughter married Ernest, so it was after 2003.

  587. Is this the nurse named Sally? if so, what is Sally’s last name now?
    Sorry, this is so confusing

  588. I think the women should just all get “assigned” to either Jesus or Joseph for all time and eternity. Then they would all be either Smith or Christ and wouldn’t have to worry about which sperm donor is creating their children. ;p

  589. Sally Wayman Jeffs Nielsen

  590. 5-5-2005 was the day that Sally was reassigned to Nielsen, along with a boatload of LeRoy’s other wives over a two-day period.

    LeRoy Jeffs had a lot of wives.

    I doubt Sally is having sex with Nielsen and for that matter her daughter cannot have any more children so sex within the marriage is something that she brought up with Warren and he typically put it in his dication about whether the younger woman can have sex with her husband.

    The reassignments are horrendous. Some women have been through several husbands since 2003.

    Some girls have, too.

  591. Thanks Carol, that is what I thought.

    I did an extensive review of nursing licenses for the state of Texas.
    There is no licensed registered nurse, no licensed vocational nurse, and no licensed midwife in the state of Texas by the name of Sally (or Sarah) Jeffs or Wayman Jeffs or Sally (or Sarah) Nielsen. The court documents however identify her as a nurse, however.

  592. Some of these trials will prove to be very interesting.

  593. Over on texasblues blog it was noted that it seemed witnesses were being intimidated by FLDS today and Leroy’s name was mentioned. Is he back in the fold?

  594. Not that I know of and I don’t think that was ever his style. He is a CPA.

    I presumed the reference was to Leroy Johnson Steed. He had a notable physical presence during the first events of April 2008.

  595. I didn’t know Merilyn can’t have more children.

  596. I was thinking it was probably Leroy Jessop, Raymond’s brother who will have his own turn in the hot seat. It could have been Steed though, I’m not sure.

  597. leroy jeffs is back in apparently, living in colorado city in a trailer someone said I think.

  598. He was in Colorado City during the 14-day hearing. Either the court or CPS communicated with him by telephone.

    If he’s back “in” the FLDS and living in a trailer, then he is not really back “in” at all.

    It’s a power thing.

  599. Unless he’s back in with Willie.

    Then he’s in.

  600. pt, I picked up something some time back that she couldn’t and while rereading some of the dictations recently, I came across the bit in the dictation.

    It’s pretty pathetic and on the perverted side for an adult woman to have to ask an uninvolved adult man if she can have sex with her husband.

  601. i’d be scared if i was him and i was back in with willie.

  602. I suppose Warren served as a “sex” counselor of sorts. (stamp will have fun with that one}.
    But really, none of that stuff is any of your business even if it makes for salacious and titillating conversation.

  603. People’s pictures were being taken by Leroy Jessop (Raymond’s brother) and by Willie Jessop. This is something they do at all of these events. Kind of creeps me out.

  604. i’m taking my camera and taking pictures of them. i’ll have lori’s son logan with me as my bodyguard!!!

  605. You go, ProudTexas!

  606. Earlier tonight I watched a TV show called “Polygamy Cult” (I think that was the title). It was a dual profile of Carolyn Jessop and Flora Jessop. It was fascinating, they are incredible women. I was struck by their love for the children of this sick little society, as well as the courage it took for them to confront and defy the men who wish to keep them subservient.

    The physical setting for Colorado City is spectacular, but then when you get a closer look you can see it’s kind of a slum.

  607. Anon E Mouse, I watched the same program, on the WE network. It’s part of the Secret Lives of Women series. An excellent profile of Flora and Carolyn and how difficult it is to leave the FLDS. They’ve aired the program before but I’m glad they repeated it. Great TV.

  608. Warren brother Leroy Jeffs is in prison still. So if there is a Leroy there, its another Leroy.

  609. Do you suppose we could all write to Warren and ask him to receive a revelation that they need to add numbers at the ends of their names? If you’re only going to use three or for names per gender it would really be helpful. Maybe Leroy would consider changing his name to something like Wishing I Was Good Enough, or I’m Perfect You’re Doomed, or something else. (Why should Spiritual Unity be the only one to suffer?)

  610. I like it, Rebeckah. Kind of like Native American names, i.e. Sitting Bull. (Wait, that’s Bill Madwacky, right?)

    And in other news, Willie made it into the courtroom in Eldorado: http://is.gd/4G4p0

  611. How about Striving For Many Teen Brides?

  612. For the girls it could be; God Hates Me, Slavery Is Fun, Happy To Be Worthless.

  613. I think it was be funny as hell , if warren got the news , Willie is the new partriarch,and kicked his butt out of Flds,, LOL

  614. Well, I can guarantee you that not a single FLDS child has ever been named, or will ever again be named “Flora”, LOL!

    Just an interesting observation we made this summer on the book tour.

  615. Boots, LOL. Yeah, I think Flora is over and done with as an FLDS name. Carolyn too, probably.

  616. Jury has been seated.

  617. *applause*

  618. Some of the questions asked dismissed FLDS jurors are now public record, as follows :

    1) Do you think being in wedlock with two wives is wrong?
    ANSWER : Yes, especially if you plan to enter the Celestial Kingdom, then you’ll need at least three wives.

    2) Do you understand what sexual assault means as legally defined?
    ANSWER : Ewhhh…..I guess…..the Bishop’s first wife is always complaining about being assaulted with a deadened weapon, she’s quite frustrated about it.

    3) Do you think Raymond will remain a latter saint to you, even if he’s tried and convicted?
    ANSWER : No, but compared to any of his brothers, he will always be a saint.

    4) Do you really believe if Raymond is convicted he will enter Heaven? How would you know?
    ANSWER : When I arrive at the Celestial Kingdom I will look for him myself, if he’s not there I will assume he’s with you.

    5) Is everybody at the YFZ Ranch as confused as you are, when questions are asked?
    ANSWER : I am not sure, Willie said we should not say anything that you could crow about and say we confessed, he didn’t say anything about us being confused.

    These are not verbatim answers, they are not a part of the official record and after two days of listening we satire’d at the end.

  619. I’m dying, caJIM. Just hollering.

  620. HAHAHAH cajlm

  621. lolololol!!!!

  622. New post on countering ignorance.

  623. Nice, Ron.

  624. Ron, thank you so much, Excellant post. And very easy to understand

  625. Here’s the thing, duane.

    Don’t marry 14-year-olds illegally and I won’t read or the public evidence.

  626. LeRoy Jeffs is in prison?

    News to me.

    I knew he and some others were incarcerated by the feds on contempt charges a few years ago, but I believe they were released in less than six months.

    If he is presently incarcerated, what is the charge?

  627. i don’t believe leroy is in jail, he’s living in colorado city.

    news from the trial:

    yhey were dismissed at 6:05 after opening statements, will resume at 9:30 in the morning with the first state witness, nick hanna, i think.

    btw – janet jeffs, who forgot she was related to raymond was in the courtroom this afternoon/evening, but wasn’t sitting beside her legal husband, wendell loy neilsen.

  628. Thanks, pt.

  629. Jim, I’m not talking to you any more. Every time you open your mouth I end up laughing and then coughing and hacking and gasping so hard that I have to go change my silk chemise.

  630. Intimidation incident-I have it on very good authority that the person and/or persons that were followed and had their pics taken are not easily intimidated. As a matter of fact they have been putting up with it for over a year and half. Willie does not bother them at all.

    Bless his heart he is so stupid he does not change his tactics.

  631. Proudtexas: I will probably be sorry I asked this, but how is Janet related to Raymond?

  632. well, she is the daughter of rulon jeffs, thereby making her the victim’s aunt. raymond is also married 3 two of her other nieces (who are the victims sisters) and 2 of her sisters. So that make her his aunt and sister-in law by marriage. She is also the victim’s step mother because she and Sally are both married to Wendell. So it is all by marriage, but I they asked in court if anyone was related to the defendant by marriage.

  633. Honey, dawn’t blame it on me GFNY! It’s almost Heaven knowing that the FLDS members are soon to take the witness stand, it’s going to create a comedy scene that I can not control or avert my ears. I pity the poor Jurors that are going to have to contain themselves from the Jury box listening to their sworn testimonies. Just exactly how hard do you think those testimonies are going to be to swallow? Sorry, about your chemise, you better stay with Speedo Olympic FastSkins until the trial testimonies are concluded. 80)

  634. heh-heh.

    caJIM said swallow.

    I’m taking as an omen that there will be center ring circus entertainment by way of nocturnal emission testimony.

    I’m so there fighting with old ladies (and the tire shop gossips)for a front row seat.

  635. Y’all might be interested in the conversation going on over at Bile’s site – well, at least until he deletes it.

  636. LOL, I just got banned from Bile’s site.

  637. No suprise there.

  638. TBM, you can’t be going there and injecting reality. It just ain’t done.

  639. TBM

    I caught that – you gave Bile a good zapping with some of the records of his case and conviction….

    Guess he wasnt in court for Raymond today – he was too busy obfuscating the truth, he didnt deny any of those things you mentioned either.

    It would be great if you posted here what happened, I didnt get a chance to copy the exchange before he cowardly deleted it.

  640. texastwist,

    I realize you are being tongue-in-cheek, but are you aware that Warren considered his dreams as fact, even to the point of destroying families because of what he dreamed about a person? Spare me if his conjured up heavenly sessions are given as sworn testimony in a court by an FLDS. Or dogma being used as fact. “The gentiles don’t have the Holy Ghost, so they will never be able to understand the purity of what we *really* were doing”. Poor jury; I expect they will have to go through this.

  641. Admin–my computer is starting to have trouble with this thread because of the number of posts in it. Can we start another one before it starts crashing?

  642. proudtexas, is Janet Nielsen full-blooded sister to WSJ, Leroy, etc. In other words do the have the same mother?

  643. Janet Jeffs Neilsen is the daughter of Rulon and Norma Balmforth. Interesting fact is that her sister Donna, who is also married to Wendell, had 2 daughters who married sons of Rulon, thus those 2 girls married their 1/2 uncle.

  644. Please continue on Open Discussion #16

    Thank you!

    – ADMIN

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