Open Discussion #14

Continued from Discussion #13

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on September 27, 2009.

628 Responses to “Open Discussion #14”

  1. Troll Behavior – Deleted – ADMIN

  2. “Rebeckah, you painful moron. I have not “stalked” Betty.”

    You lying sack of excrement. I did not give you my last name, I did not invite you to contact me, in fact much to the contrary. You have told me you know who I am in real life, and you have threatened me with exposure. Then after saying in public that you did not care enough about me to even remember my log in, you look that login up and leave me a message. It doesn’t matter what was in the message – the true message is that you can walk into my private life any time you want. Well, the law says you can’t.

  3. There is no Hugh, there is only a pathetic child pretending to be an adult.

  4. You’re right, Betty. It’s an out and out LIE (remember, it must always be capitalized or the Drama Queens don’t understand it) to say you weren’t stalked or to say that he hasn’t attempted to intimidate you. If he were here I’d tell him a thing or two, count on that! :p

  5. Does anyone see the irony in which a person who indulges in gross boundary violations spends most of his spare time protecting the rights of man to perform gross boundary violations?

    Can I get a witness????

  6. Hugh – Further the conversation or start one up on your own blog. -ADMIN

  7. I’m going to go cuddle my husband and watch a movie until his pager goes off again. Some one swat the flies for me while I’m gone. OK?

    ‘K.

  8. Yes, Betty I see that too.

  9. There is no Hugh, there is only a tired child in need of a nap.

  10. Betty HA HA HA

    Yeah, I love it when Hugh et al come up with little rules, it takes 10 minutes for them to break them themselves.

  11. Pharisee said : “Rebeckah, you painful moron…”

    I believe that ample evidence exists to suggest that the Pharisee is incapable of having a rational, respectful discourse with a woman, or women in general. His writings indicate strong evidence of paranoid, anti-social, narcissistic, and histrionic traits. He certainly has a different tone when communicating with men, therefore, I believe he is a misogynist. I would suggest that the administrator of this blog be contacted, and you should request that the Pharisee be banned. Please excuse me now, I have decided to limit my contact with psychiatric outpatients like the Pharisee to business hours.

  12. catwhisperer, I dunno who you are, but I sure do like you a lot.

    Hugh, you should be ashamed of yourself. Pull up your socks and act like a man instead of an oppositional hormone-crazed adolescent. Sheesh.

  13. Texasrattle, you give Hugh too much credit. He still needs a nap and milk and cookies from Mommy in the afternoon. Giving him the emotional age of an adolescent is too generous.

  14. Actually, the nap and milk and cookies age is rather appealing. Hugh isn’t.

  15. Maybe Hugh remembered why he tucked tail and ran away last time – anyway it looks like Admin cleaned up his trollish boorish behavior.

    Vulture too.

  16. “Actually, the nap and milk and cookies age is rather appealing. Hugh isn’t.”

    Too true, too true! 🙂

  17. Yayyyyyyyyyyyy Admin!

  18. I’m really getting tired of this. Something has loaded “Ask” as my default browser and my cookies keep getting erased. I’m going to have to have my son take a look at my ‘puter now.

  19. Well, I see no leftovers from Pharisee or Vulture, whoever cleaned up the mess, Thanks, lol

  20. btw, I was Anony 7:04 — my ‘puter is acting up and keeps clearing all my logins.

  21. Rebeckah,

    Check virus protection? There are also malware cleaners you can download online. I had to do that earlier this week for something called “artemis!”

  22. Sorry your having problems with your computer Rebeckah

  23. Thanks, DeputyDog. Fortunately there isn’t a viral problem out there that my son can’t figure out a cure for — even if it’s to F disk and start over. It’s behaving somewhat better now, I’ll see what happens. AVG didn’t find anything…

  24. If Avg didnt find anything,,, thats a good sign Rebeckah. Sometimes my computor goes whacky to, lol

  25. Is Hugh the same as Pharisee?

  26. Cement, yes, he is.

    What’s more, he thinks the nick “Pharisee” is a good and honorable moniker.

  27. Awe – I missed all the troll posts. So much for my entertainment for today! Guess I’ll have to be content with Vulture calling Stamp a c**k s*****r on his blog.

  28. Cork Shooter?

    *falls over laughing*

  29. Mainly it consisted of Vulture coming out of the shoot calling people names and Hugh coming over here to tell Betty she doesn’t exist, possibly because the Vermont statute she pulled up makes it crystal clear that his cyberstalking has crossed the line. In true egomaniac fashion, rather than apologize and back off he followed her here to pester her further. I really think she should file a formal complaint. Nothing might come of it, but if it’s a slow day in the office and they have been as irritated by Hugh as the rest of us (a distinct possibility given his behavior online) then he could end up getting his hand smacked. In a perfect world a judge would ban him from computer use, but I know that’s just a pleasant fantasy. 😉

  30. Yeah, I think it’s obvious Pharisee doesn’t understand or respect boundaries. And the fact that there are people in the web world who don’t respect boundaries is a real good reason to be anonymous.

  31. I am collecting a file. The law requires that the contact be repeated and continuous. So I’m proving that by documentation.

  32. Betty, you need to file a formal complaint. If you are not willing to do so for your own benefit, think about Officer Santos. You might be assisting the Officer in any case she brings forth, as you would be establishing that the Pharisee has a history of electronic harassment.

  33. Well I hope that you include the “Betty doesn’t exist.” posts in your files. He came here with the express purpose of taunting you with it. Negative attention is still attention and the fact that he posted it after nearly every post you put up here is stalkerish. Oh, and I was anonymous 10:15 up there. I think I’ve almost got all my settings back to where they need to be to stop randomly ereasing my information.

  34. file a formal complaint with whom?

  35. Maybe Ron would know, as he is an attorney

  36. Wow. My FLDS Texas display looks really weird. Anybody else having problems? Did we/I get boarded?

  37. I see a completely white, rather than black, screen.

  38. Mine too, Betty, something happened.

    If you can afford it, call the local police in Hugh’s area and ask them if you can file a complaint about his behavior — I’m thinking they have an Internet policing division. They might tell you that you haven’t a leg to stand on, but then again, this is Hugh and they might throw a party in your honor. 😉

    Okay, here’s my response to The Lurking Hypocrite — he who whines piteously about “censorship” and sneers about “echo chambers” and prefers both on his blog:

    First I posted this:

    Let me tell you how it looked from the other side — you came to someone else’s
    blog to complain to people about a third party. You called people names coming
    out of the stall. You did not use either logic or reason, simply told people to
    come read your entry here. Your entry here is not persuasive — you are
    paraphrasing your interpretation rather than using actual words spoken by either
    you or Blues. I’m not saying Blues isn’t a jerk when he lets people know that
    their interpretation of the law is faulty, he just recently did that with Toes
    and regularly does it with Medvecky. What I am saying is that this vendetta that
    both you and Hugh are carrying on against Blues makes you two look like bullying
    children. You go to other sites to complain about someone who has offended you.
    You “hijack” blogs with these complaints. And neither of you show an ounce of
    humility either. In other words, not only is the pot calling the kettle black,
    but you two carry it further by childishly pursuing the person who offended you
    rather than simply sticking to the argument at hand where ever you are. Now you
    complain about being moderated at the site where you tried to take your fight.
    (Oh, wait, not really since all you were really trying to do is convince other
    people that Blues is a “bad” man.) I have to liken that to being thrown out of a
    church because you came in and tried to give a political speech for the
    candidate you prefer during the Sunday sermon. I’m going to be very curious
    whether or not you post this. Since you feel moderation is improper, surely you
    don’t practice on YOUR blog.

    And when I followed up on it, yes, it was removed by The Lurking Hypocrite, so I left this:

    lol, so you prove yourself a hypocrite again. No one can “moderate” you but you
    feel free to moderate dissent. Enjoy your “echo chamber”.

    Of course that will be deleted too. A fragile ego is a sad, sad thing to behold.

  39. me too!

  40. Well, either the admin has done something or this blog has been hacked. Gee. Vulture is a programmer, right?

  41. Heckuva lot easier to read this way.

  42. TROLL behavior – post DELETED – ADMIN

  43. Okay, I have to eat a little crow here. Apparently I posted it on the wrong thread and Vulture did not, in fact, delete my post. Oh well, everyone makes mistakes, right? 🙂

  44. Gee, Hugh shows up. Coinkie Dink?

  45. Rebeckah, what time was your interaction with Vulture? I’m beginning to think his name is very appropriate.

  46. Hey–mine is strange too!!! What’s up????

  47. TROLL behavior – post DELETED – ADMIN

  48. Your name was on your harassing contact with me, Hugh, too. Just keep piling the entries into my file, dude, you’re doing a great job.

  49. And I’m wondering how you got past the moderation of the admin. I’m just guessing that “painful morons” would not pass muster after yesterday.
    Do we have a redirect going on?

  50. Testing 1 2 3

  51. On his blog it says my first entry was at 10:49 (or somewhere around there) and he replied at 11: something or other. I’m three hours behind him so it would have been before 8 am my time. I don’t think he’s hacked the blog, I suspect one of the administrators was moderating and someone pushed the wrong button or chose the wrong option or something just glitched. I bet it’s back up to normal soon. (Of course I can’t claim to be a computer expert either, so I could be wrong.) 😀

  52. I have sent a message to the admin but received no response. You may be right. It disappeared entirely for about a minute.

    That is the time frame within which the changes appeared. But yes, it could be a coincidence.

  53. TROLL behavior – post DELETED – ADMIN

    One more strike and your out Hugh!

  54. Childish, Hugh. I’m embarrassed for you.

  55. Ahhh, we’re back to black.

  56. woo-hoo–I like this better!!!!!

  57. Betty, will you be my facebook bff? I promise only to say nice stuff.

    = (Trolling Behavior)

    Admin, why are you censoring anti polygamist haters?

    = (Trolling Behavior)

    Didn’t you guys attack medvecky for censoring comments?

    = (Trolling Behavior)

    Its possible you could be next duane. – ADMIN

  58. They are censoring harassment, duane.

    No, I do not want you or anyone else to contact me using any method other than these news blogs where we use profile names to protect our identity. Any attempt to contact me without my permission will be considered harassment and I will add to my file. Any posting of personal information such as real name, address, phone numbers, email addresses that are hidden by this site, any other email addresses not freely shared by me, SS#, credit card numbers, passwords, etc…all of those things are ILLEGAL. And against the rules of most web providers.

  59. “Then count me out. ”

    The remainder edited for trolling and name calling.

    And you are hereby banned – ADMIN

  60. Account names on other sites, including facebook, counts on that harassment list, BTW.

  61. Yep, back to normal now.

    No, Duane, it isn’t “censorship” that is spoken about; it’s the whining about censorship that takes place from people who turn around and censor on their own blogs. Like Hugh of romper room fame.

  62. Betty, I don’t know your last name but I just opened a facebook account after getting the idea by following you and Hughe’s escapades. I don’t have many friends and just thought…you know, we can be friends and stuff.

    What you guys think about ol’ Roman Polanksi, he drugged and then dinked a 13 year old when he was 43. But the whole of France is supporting him, many on the Huffington post are also defending this dude and want the charges dropped.

    Even when it comes to kiddie sex, whether you are a perv or not depends upon Who you are.

  63. “We guys” are delighted Roman got busted, and hope he’s prosecuted to the max and soundly convicted. We don’t care WHO you are, sex with 13 year olds is NOT acceptable.

  64. duane are there charges brought and an arrest made for statutes being violated? Is this a form of persecution or judicial prosecution? Roman will have his day in Court to present his defense and state his case, just like Raymond Jessop and Alan Keate.

    Is there some grave unjust action caused by enforcing the Law & Order of our American society?

  65. Actually, Roman had already plead guilty and was awaiting sentencing when he absconded to France.

    He wasn’t busted in the classical sense, he was captured after running for decades. That the whole of France is supporting him says something about the whole of France.

  66. “Betty, I don’t know your last name but I just opened a facebook account after getting the idea by following you and Hughe’s escapades. I don’t have many friends and just thought…you know, we can be friends and stuff.”

    She’s told you “no” two or three times here. Ask the question again and I’ll be asking the administrators to consider banning you. This is now harrassment in my book.

    “What you guys think about ol’ Roman Polanksi, he drugged and then dinked a 13 year old when he was 43. But the whole of France is supporting him, many on the Huffington post are also defending this dude and want the charges dropped.”

    I think it should have happened years ago and am appalled if it is true that the “whole of France” was supporting him in his pedophilia.

    “Even when it comes to kiddie sex, whether you are a perv or not depends upon Who you are.”

    If you are a person of means you might be able to get away with it longer but that certainly doesn’t make it right. I hope they throw the book at him.

  67. duane,

    there seems to be people who have trouble with boundaries. You can laugh all you want, but I am going to report to FB any messages I get from those who are not my friends and I will block any friend request that comes from anyone who is not my friend. I don’t think there will be anything for you to see, since I blocked Hugh’s profile, tightened up my security settings and did not respond to him in anyway on FB. Oh, but I did report unwanted contact, just to add to my documentation.

    So why don’t you talk about issues here, or talk about fishing, or talk about foot ball. But if you keep on talking about me and my identity, I’m going to make a file about you, too, and eventually it will go to the cops. I’m not kidding. Knock it off.

  68. No cajim, but Roman has quite a large bevy of defenders.
    I guess cuz he produced an academy award winning movie “The Pianist”.
    If only Warren and some of the other FLDS were big time Hollywood producers.

    Arresting Roman Polanski the other day in Zurich, where he was to receive an honorary award at a film festival, was disgraceful and unjustifiable….

    The 13-year old model “seduced” by Polanski had been thrust onto him by her mother, who wanted her in the movies. The girl was just a few weeks short of her 14th birthday, which was the age of consent in California. (It’s probably 13 by now!) Polanski was demonized by the press, convicted, and managed to flee, fearing a heavy sentence.

    http://www.reason.com/blog/show/136374.html

  69. You reap what you sow, duane. What goes around just keeps on coming back atcha.

  70. He plead guilty, what?, 35 years ago? The Piper has been playing for him for a long, long time. It’s time to pay Him.

    But look at it this way, I bet the prices of his DVD’s are going to go up, cause he’s probably not making any more.

  71. Betty, Please don’t make a file on me. What did I ever do to you?

  72. rattle, my point is is that the press is not screaming bloody murder and posting lurid stories about him.

  73. duane, I have no control over what the press does.

  74. Perhaps we should take the children from all of Polanski’s fans and supporters.

  75. Betty, my advice is not to answer duhwayne’s 2:11 post.

  76. “Perhaps we should take the children from all of Polanski’s fans and supporters.”

    If they were supplying him with 13 year old girls in violations of the laws of where they live — yes, yes they should.

    And we aren’t responsible for what the media does and does not report — perhaps you should take your issues up with them.

  77. yeah, I’m with you, texasrattle. I’ve been clear, so I’m done now.

  78. “Betty, Please don’t make a file on me. What did I ever do to you?”

    Admin, I am finding Duane’s harrassment of Betty offensive and approaching “threatening”. Is there anything that can be done about this?

  79. duane, the press did scream bloody murder and post lurid stories about polanski about 35 years ago when he raped that poor 13 year old girl. Google his name and you can read them, he has not been in the US since he ran from justice about 35 years ago, so he has not done anything new in the US for them to report, it has already been reported. He has already plead guilty to the charges, he ran before the sentencing part, I hope they drag his pedopheliac @ss back her and sentence him to the max and tack on the max for absconding also.

  80. Hey Betty, I want to offer my sympathy and support. It’s truly disgusting that a few juvenile men are so threatened by you standing up for your own personal space. Apparently being told “no” by a woman emasculates them and they feel the need to become abusive in response. I’m sorry that you’re being subjected to this.

  81. I have to admit that I was concerned when some time back a poster on one of the blogs (old age memory lapse) commented in a way that showed my identity had been uncovered. It kind of spooked me, but it was no big deal. I began to think how I myself have googled and searched to try and find out about the FLDS folks. My reasons were out of concern for them and care for friends there. I guess that was really invading their privacy in a way. And the same is done about other people in the news. We are curious and interested and want to find out all we can. But when it comes to our own lives, our own privacy, that is another matter. I suppose when we have nothing to hide, it shouldnt matter. I have nothing to hide, but I still value my privacy. Just a thought….

  82. Dont Troll duane, you will be put on moderation -ADMIN

    I let this latter part stand below, but don’t you think you are being hypocritical by saying “”All of France”, or “Europe” are outraged over this” in light of your previous claims that only a few FLDS are sex criminals? Perhaps a few politicians and movie industry types are uncomfortable (perhaps for good reason).. but “the whole of Europe”? – ADMIN

    —————-

    Sadie, yeah that was 35 years ago, again the whole of Europe is outraged over this. Since he made award winning movies he now gets a pass.

  83. Yeah. It’s worth it.

  84. Regina Ericson was thoroughly harrased by polyg haters, they even called her employer, soon after that she suffered a stroke.

  85. duane, your nose will grow if you keep telling lies.

  86. Linda Lamb,

    No one should have treated you like that.

    But, let me know how it feels when someone you met here contacts you via your real life contact information and then we’ll talk. There’s a difference between threatening and doing what you are threatening.

  87. duane you amaze me that you want to discuss details about a known adult who sexually assaulted a minor decades ago and want to see him as an inconsistency with present day sexual assault charges against FLDS Church indicted men. Maybe there isn’t a discrepancy but rather an infuriating consistency that they are both illegal acts and Justice will be served no matter the timeframe or age of the minors but rather the adult culpability of the perpetrators. You like to point up all the minor points of statutory rape as a felony charge and probe it’s validity but it has always been considered one of the most heinous forms of rape whether you or the entire French population likes it or not. Law & Order and Justice will be served once a trial is made and a fair verdict is wrought.

  88. “Apparently being told “no” by a woman emasculates them and they feel the need to become abusive in response.”

    No, really? Men who argue for the rights of rapists don’t want women around who set boundaries? I’m shocked.

    8^)

    Thanks, I appreciate that, Rebeckah.

  89. Linda Lamb, I’m don’t really fear being “outed” if that was all there was to it. If someone really wants to figure out who I am, they can. At any rate it seems the pro civil rights crowd has potentially more to fear from the “other side” than vice versa.

    Deb Lee was outed, someone else figured out who Celia’s late grandparents were-they were victims of the St. Poppy’s day IRA bombing. These are all attempts to silence.

  90. BTW, the age of consent now in California is effectively 18 with a three year “Romeo and Juliet” age range qualifier. So the blogger duane quoted is full of it.

    If there is a dollar limit between petty and grand larceny, and someone is $5 over grand larceny, do they drop all charges just because those limits are arbitrary? No, they don’t. They might consider it at sentencing or take a plea to the lessor charge, but they don’t just slap their forheads and say “Our bad! We made laws with limits and ranges in them!” and walk off.

    Roman has money to hire lawyers. Let em. And I could care less what his fans in France think. They can worry about their own 13 year olds.

  91. Deb Lee outed herself and when someone told her that was a bad idea, a bunch of coyotes jumped all over that person. You were one of those coyotes.

  92. “all of france” was somewhat hyperbolic, but it seems a majority are supporiting Polanski including the government.

  93. Linda Lamb one of the five tenets that seperates the Fundamentalist LDS from mainstream Latter Day Saints is the religious belief in ‘Blood Atonement’ which teaches that acts of even killing can be justified if viewed through a proper lens of Old Testament interpretations. Many of the FLDS apostates, especially ones who are more vocal, publish books or openly oppose the FLDS Church Prophet and current leadership, are still possible targets to this teaching and potential harm. One apostate couple that Winston Blackmore has allowed into his Canadian congregation was believed to have been discussed for ‘Blood Atonement’ by FLDS leadership. Your naivete` is showing once again if you think simple anonymity is all that is at stake in protecting some persons identities, just a thought……

  94. Who cares? It’s not France’s decision. And I question the idea that a majority of Frenchmen can agree on anything except that the weather is about to change.

  95. Linda Lamb wrote “I have nothing to hide, but I still value my privacy”

    You should read up on the damage that identity theft can cause if you think you have nothing to lose.

    I have read about Merrill Jessop in his ex wife’s book and in the news. But I have not tried to find out if he has a FaceBook profile nor tried to find out his home phone number.

  96. duane “Hyperbolic”?

    Indeed the operative word for your Polanski posts.

    See this:

    ” For every dozen people outraged that he is currently being held in Zurich, waiting to hear if he will be extradited to the US to face sentence on charges of unlawful sexual intercourse with a 13-year-old girl, another dozen can easily be found who are gleeful that Polanski may finally receive his just deserts.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/6240914/The-hunt-for-Roman-Polanski.html

  97. Yeah, I did a test of the web and hit three newspaper columns on the subject from American newspapers. They all basically said “he raped the girl. Fry his ass. Give me a break, Europe.”

  98. Duhduane if Deb Lee and Celia were intended to be silenced then why does your statement, as unfounded and biased in it’s view stand on this board without ‘edit’? How come the warnings to poster’s like ‘Just Ducky’ are only presented as veiled threats when persons were trying to warn her that she had ‘outed’ parts of her privacy by stating too many personal aspects to her identity. You solely state it as an attack, that never manifested and now you attribute her stroke as caused by this incident? You know full well she had stopped posting on boards by the time of her attack and was simply blogging on her own site when her health failed. Your not a doctor and your bogus comment stands unedited, above. My comments are routinely withheld by Pharisee and BillM removes my posts for months now, I don’t cry about it because the “edit” button is on their keyboard.
    You only fool yourself by challenging our open board, especially when compared to theirs.

  99. Betty, Facebook is a public social site, anyone has the right to approach other members just as much as those being approached have the right to reject them.
    Search for Merril Jessop, it is not a crime nor is it unethical.

  100. Regina Ericson was an open blogger from the get go, no one had to figure out who she really was.

  101. I don’t speak for Bill medvecky or Hugh.

  102. What about the victims of molestation whose characters were defamed by rericson on various boards? Kinda dumb to use your own name and then give out a prejudicial accounts of various cases you worked on your job.

  103. “Regina Ericson was thoroughly harrased by polyg haters, they even called her employer, soon after that she suffered a stroke.”

    What I heard was that ONE person contacted her employer twice. And no matter how you want to cut it, there’s no way that fact alone caused her stroke. The fact is that Regina would have had one sooner or later. And the poor actions of someone else (which many of us here have stated our abhorrence for) does not excuse your own stalkerish behavior. If it was wrong for the person who contacted Regina’s employer to harrass Regina then it is wrong for you to harrass Betty. I wonder that you would choose to engage in it. Apparently you are no better than the person you wish to blame Regina’s stroke on.

  104. ““all of france” was somewhat hyperbolic, but it seems a majority are supporiting Polanski including the government.”

    Which proves that the French don’t have the same priorities we do. Heck, they were up in arms when the phone company wanted to start sending itemized phone bills. The French are weird by American standards.

  105. Hey, duane, I didn’t make the harassment laws, but I sure will file a formal complaint when someone harasses me under those laws. I didn’t make up the provider policies but I am going to report to the letter any violations of those polices against me.

  106. Betty, I was just trying to identify with your concern. Some things are just taken too far and become criminal. I have read all the books I could find and eagerly await books written by current FLDS members. Judging and taking delight in other’s misfortunes is not appealing to me. Formerly working with crisis pregnancy clients opened my eyes and heart in not being so judgmental. It’s hard to find that balance between what is moral, ethical, spiritual and legal. At least it is hard for me.

  107. CaJim, Blood Atonement is basically the equivalent of the Death Penalty, you know “an eye for an eye”, Texas is rather prolific at it even if they sometimes get it wrong.
    No evidence of violence in the FLDS, nothing in Warren’s dications indicate he planned anything violent even though he predicted what would happen to the UEP and other attempts to seize their property.

    What about Cement, He doesn’t seem to fear “blood atonement”.

  108. Edited for Trolling.

    duane goes into MODERATION for multiple violations. – ADMIN

  109. Blood atonement is the punishment for a woman who commits adultery or who opposes her husband’s marriage to another woman. If I had left, I would be afraid. I would also fear that my ex would come make a grab for the children even if I had legal custody.

  110. duane learned a new word from Vulture’s blog. Isn’t that sweet?

  111. Yeah, Betty, but I bet he can’t define it.

  112. I’m a bit behind on reading the blogs but I had not read of blame for Regina’s stroke. So sorry to hear about that. Is she back to blogging again and better now?

  113. The good thing is that I’m really making progress on tearing up the old tile. Got something to take my feelings out on. 8^).

  114. Duane,
    Your statement: …”they even called her employer, soon after that she suffered a stroke” is an example of ‘Medveckian logic.’

  115. Smack it for me, Betty!

  116. Are littlebitty cars painted with signs offering Little Debbie Cupcakes following you around like black helos, Duane and Hugh and all y’all other Trolls?

  117. “No evidence of violence in the FLDS, nothing in Warren’s dications indicate he planned anything violent even though he predicted what would happen to the UEP and other attempts to seize their property.”

    Of course he did everything in his power to make his prediction come true — I guess that’s how you really know if they’re a prophet or not; do they have the cajones to MAKE their predictions come true.

  118. Um…aren’t child abuse and rape VIOLENT? How about sending thugs over to throw people out of their homes? Plowing under someone’s fields in the middle of the night?

  119. I think once you start going through boundaries, each successive one is easier to defile.

  120. The girl’s mother was told that Polanski was going to shoot pictures of her for a French magazine. They went to Nicholson’s home on Mulholland Drive. He gave her champagne and part of a Qualude. Then he had oral, anal and vaginal sex with her. She testified that she repeatedly said no and he didn’t listen to her.

    Then, after pleading guilty to a lesser charge, he fled the country.

    Count one, rape
    Count two, using a controlled substance as an instrument of rape
    Count three, sex with a minor
    Count four, jumping bail and leaving the country to avoid prosecution.

    Yeah, a really nice guy. And he was 40-ish at the time, no impressionable child who did not know the rules.

  121. “Um…aren’t child abuse and rape VIOLENT? How about sending thugs over to throw people out of their homes? Plowing under someone’s fields in the middle of the night?”

    Not to mention driving down fences and causing the death of an expensive stallion…

  122. So, if a lot of French people don’t mind one of their own raping an American teenager then we should just ignore it? You know, a lot of Iranians don’t mind one of their own flying our planes into buildings. We should probably just ignore that too.

  123. I wasn’t aware anyone proved someone called Regina’s employer?
    Maybe her employer found his website, and maybe Regina is just a liar,,,the woman is 75yrs old. She represented Two cases anyone can find on the internet,, in favor of TWO preditors!! And blamed the abuse on the victims.
    I would never wish anyone illness or harm to come to them in any way. But, the whole matter of Regina and someone calling her so called employer was weak at best.

  124. No one proved it, DeputyDog, but it does seem to have happened. Regina was guilty of many things but making up out and out lies wasn’t one of them.

  125. When and where did Regina assert that this happened? I’ve never read anything but claims by others.

  126. I believe she told Blues who shared it on his blog. I could be wrong but that’s how I remember it.

  127. Her blog, Just Ducky. Back last fall? Maybe?

  128. it was last year sometime judith and I saw it written on Brooke Adams blog that someone had called her employer anonymously.

  129. does anyone know if there was a hearing today in Jessop v. Jessop? When I had to go to the courthouse on other business, i bumped into Raymond Jessop leaving the courthouse.

  130. Yes. If you read the document on Blue’s last blog entry it said there was going to be a hearing today. Nobody knows anything more about it though.

  131. Nope, we’re all waiting for news.

  132. Thanks, DeputyDog. Fortunately there isn’t a viral problem out there that my son can’t figure out a cure for — even if it’s to F disk and start over. It’s behaving somewhat better now, I’ll see what happens. AVG didn’t find anything…
    Rebeckah said this on September 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM

    UNACCEPTABLE TROLLISH COMMENT BY ONTHESTREET – DELETED BY ADMIN

  133. And since we haven’t had enough crazy around here yet, onthestreet shows up!

  134. Im kinda of interested to know how the hearing went,, or if it was postponed for discovery.

  135. “And since we haven’t had enough crazy around here yet, onthestreet shows up!”

    I missed it. Someone want to send me an e-mail with the highlights?

  136. Blues just posted that it is still in session. And shots were fires near the hotel that participants stayed in last night. Check out Coram non Judice.

  137. holy cow

  138. So much for “peaceful”.

  139. lol, apparently my suggestion to call the police has the “Hugh patrol” nervous. They’re saying it’s terrible harrassment. How DARE you consider reporting someone like Hugh for ignoring your request to be left alone, Betty? I, of course, do it because I really hate bullies. ;p

  140. I missed it. Someone want to send me an e-mail with the highlights?

    ====================
    On the street accused Rebeckah’s computer problems on immorality.

  141. lol — Even by his standards I’m a friggin’ nun. Been divorced and celibate for 20+ years. (I don’t like being touched.)

    Thanks, Cement. I’m sure your synopsis was more amusing than whatever drivel he came up with. 😆

  142. cement you have me giggling, thanks

    who knew computers were capable of immorality

  143. with onthestreet everything including inanimate objects are capable of immorality, lol

  144. with Streety everything including inanimate objects are capable of immorality, lol

  145. Street ( or is it “Skidmark” ) DOES have a fertile mind. One that creeped even Warren out!

  146. glad to see Polanski brought to justice, and equally glad to see the Pharisee banned. He certainly deserved it. Is there any update regarding the shots fired near where Carolyn or the witnesses were staying at the hotel?

  147. Just found this at CNJ:
    According to my information, Carolyn was staying with a friend at the friend’s house. 2600 W. Twohig is a residential neighborhood.

    So, in response to your two points:

    1. The research was done and verified. Not all information that I have has been published, but the information published is correct.

    2. Since there was plenty of evidence to support this conclusion, including the fact that the Ranger was going to look into it. Since we know that several of the FLDS have gone to schools teaching high-level pistol skills and at least one to a sniper school, it is not a stretch to opine that the FLDS might be involved.

  148. Actually, whether or not there will be justice for Polanski has yet to be seen. He’s got an extradition hearing and is planning to fight it. I think he’s in custody in Switzerland and both France and Poland governments have filed a formal complaint with the US about trying to extradite him.

  149. Geez, the guy should never have gotten away with assaulting a 13yr old, and it happened 38 yrs ago!! DAmn police!

  150. I know it will come as a surprise to you all that duane is full of it, but this article says that a French survey of 29,500 respondants reported over 70% of them thought that Polanski should be made to face justice. So, oddly, most French people are NOT in favor of child rape.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-polanski-europe29-2009sep29,0,4013914.story

  151. Thanks Betty!

  152. “I know it will come as a surprise to you all that duane is full of it,”

    NO! He is?

    “a French survey of 29,500 respondants reported over 70% of them thought that Polanski should be made to face justice.”

    Our Duane talk out of his rear end? MAKE something up and report it as “fact”. Generalize the feelings of an entire nation?

    I’m stunned…

    😉

  153. Yes. Also stunning is the idea that pretty much any society is against the crime of drugging and raping a 13 year old.

  154. I read a statement [on the Internet, so it must be true lol!] that Polanski claimed the 13yr old ‘seduced him’. He isn’t the only child molester to use that claim. Seems to be a popular defense.Of course, he left out the part where he used alcohol and a drug to get her…in the mood.

  155. i think that 2600 twohig has a bed and breakfast type place but if not, what’s the problem with carolyn staying with friends? she had plenty of time when she was in san angelo previously to make friends. if she’d have asked, i’d have given her a place to stay and bought her a steak dinner.

    the news said the hearing has recessed and will be continued, but it also said that merril testified that he had no income.

  156. Soozie, I read an excerpt from a study a man had done by posing as a pedophile and going to their sites. They claimed that three year old children were “seducing” them by grabbing themselves in front of them. When it was asked (by the researcher) if it couldn’t have just been that little boys (lol, and big boys for that matter) touch themselves and/or maybe they had to pee or something the response was a firm, “Nope, they wanted to excite me.” Pedophiles are deluded in very scaary ways.

  157. Years ago when my daughter wanted to let her daughter [she was 11 at the time] have computer access, I sat her down, made up a 13 yr old profile and hit the internet chat rooms. Wellll, it wasn’t 5 min before I had several adult males chatttting me up. I didn’t go looking for them. They were all over the chat room for teenaged girls. It turned sexual within a short period of time. Had I’d ever let a boy kiss me, touch me, more than that. My poor daughter sat there stunned with her mouth hanging open. After that,my granddaughter was highly supervised on any computer for several years. Luckily, my granddaughter has had little interest in internet chatting. But, predators are everywhere just waiting for the next victim!!!

  158. Wow, thank goodness my daughter was completely uninterested in the computer as a teen!

  159. Good grief: If the AAAS get this worked up over a child support hearing for an flds leader, what will they do when the criminal trials start? They are already irrational and frothing at the mouth.
    To flds administrators; thanks for banning vulture and huge ego mcbryde. If mcbryde has the best and most followed polygamy site out there, why does he have to come here and to TBM to discuss polygamy. He could do it at his site which has way more posters than this site does, that is, according to huge ego.

  160. Well put Chemist, and I find it ironic that a guy who wants to make it all work so he can hang with lots of women – doesnt hang with lots of women, his site is a turn off, pun intended!

    Very lonely over on his site, with the exception of a few Vulture droppings and 41 Conspiracies.

  161. Actor Woody Allen and French Pres Sarkozi are front in center claiming Roman Polanski should get off scot free.

    Makes ya say hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……….

  162. Woody Allen married his adopted daughter and divorced his wife of the time that was the adopted Mom. Yeah, that figures that he’d be supportive of Roman.

  163. Bishop F. Merril Jessop testified that he made zero ‘0’ income in Court yesterday? Wow, he must be industrious, hard working and a Liar, as well? What a shining example of spiritual leadership and great example for all the FLDS congregation to listen to and emulate. Such a great Priesthood father, he’s sermons on how to live life and please the Prophet as a follower must be inspiring never mind that he’s a ‘Dead beat’ Daddy in this life!

  164. Soozie wrote “I read a statement [on the Internet, so it must be true lol!] that Polanski claimed the 13yr old ’seduced him’.”

    Yeah, that’s why he needed alcohol and a half a Qualude to help her “seduce him”. I don’t know if any of you are old enough to remember Qualudes, they were taken off the market some time ago for just this reason. They not only sedate you, they can almost act as a wide awake paralyzer in large doses or with alcohol. You can be unable to move arms and legs and yet be fully aware of what’s going on. Really pretty sick, if you ask me. And, how many 13 year olds are saying “Hey, baby, please do me in the ass.”??????

    Also, he would not have plead to a lessor offense or jumped the country if he thought his rape case was going well.

  165. Well, at least Allen waited until 15 minutes after she was legal. Got to give him that. Funny how so many can’t wait. A

  166. If you look on google maps and chose the satellite image, you can see that the address of the shooting is a residence with a pool on a quiet residential street. You can also do a reverse address look up for free and see who lives there. Another google tells you what that person does for a living cause there are hits on the web. That makes it really, really clear that it was not a hotel, it was a residence and the FLDS or their supporters were doing the shooting.

    And since I’m now learning more about domestic abuse, I have to say that shooting at someone the night before a child support case is not nearly as rare as we would hope.

  167. caljim, he doesn’t even collect social security? He’s just a pimp daddy living off his wives? Right.

  168. “Good grief: If the AAAS get this worked up over a child support hearing for an flds leader, what will they do when the criminal trials start? They are already irrational and frothing at the mouth.”

    Yes, the opposition to her child support makes it really clear that they are not NEARLY as worried about the Fourth and the First Amendments as they make it out that they are. They are really concerned about keeping women under the boot heel.

    And when duane started talking about Roman Polanski, it’s obvious that he is all about having sex with 13 year olds.

    So to me it’s kind of nice that we are seeing true colors. It’s not “save the children” – it’s “save the bishop’s money”.

  169. Is today the day Merril gets PWNED? I think he is going to have to remember where he left his checkbook!

  170. For those who may not be awre of the acronym AAAS, it is the Aiders and Abetters Society meaning those who aid and abet polygamists and all of the abuse that is part and parcel of polygamy such as underage marriage, financial fraud, etc. Of course we could include intimidation, wonder whether Dee Jessop was in San Angelo yesterday??

  171. Then there is also the PPSG, the Polygamy Pedophile Support Group

    Hat tip to TBM

  172. I heard Merril himself give a sermon where he stated that a gentile informed him of an FLDS member “who had the business morals of an alley-cat”

  173. I always considered PPSG to mean Pro Polygamy Support Group. 😉

  174. All I know is it ain’t KS 🙂

  175. Rebeckah

    Ive seen it used both ways. Is there really a difference?

  176. I don’t know if Dee was in town yesterday, but Willie was!

  177. Obviously shots fired on some street in San Angelo is a big deal since it made the papers. Anyone from that area able to say if it’s a good or a bad area?

  178. Stamp, well, there is some in the interpretation since not all pedophiles are polygamists and not all polygamists are pedophiles, but in the end; not much difference at all. I was just stating my own take on the initials. (For the longest time I thought LOL was “lots of laughs”.)

  179. It’s a nice area.

  180. Becca

    I’m with you on LOL! Anyway TBM coined it and I saw him spell it out with the pedophile.

    That said, there are FLDS protectors who claim to be against the child marriage situation, yet interestingly, continue to post votes for the right of the men to do their deeds unfettered.

    There have been a few change their mind as the Truth has been Revealed over time, but they usually dont say, “GEE You guys are right” and keep posting, usually they drop out.

    Choice2 is such a poster although there were signs of her coming around before she vanished.

  181. anon

    “Its a nice area”

    Most of Texas IS, but now you have crazy’s bandying about. These trials should slow the immigration train though.

    And Ally Cat Willie? I think he may be there, because Merril and him may be hiding assets.

    So Willie and the FLDS may lose if assets are pulled out of their collective hat.

    I’d like to think there will be punitive damage awards for hiding assets.

    Everyone knows Warren directed Merril to hide his assets in the FLDS.

    Dumb clucks, if they are going to gamble all their crap why dont they go to Vegas?

  182. Blues man has a great account of Day one.

    Looks like Merril was embarrased when caught in lies and his lame “Deadbeat Dad” excuse.

  183. ALERT

    At this time we defer to TBM’s site for late breaking news on the Raymond Jessop case!

  184. Stamp said:
    Looks like Merril was embarrased when caught in lies and his lame “Deadbeat Dad” excuse

    I understand that Hennington visibly cringed at his answer….

  185. Bet she wish she’d brought her Shepard’s hook!

    OH WELL she knew it was a lost case anyway, what excuse COULD he have!?

    “My Prophet made me do it”..

  186. Amy Hennington just put her reputation on the line as an attorney as far as Im concerned,,, She knows Merrill is guilty!!! And yet she is defending him,,, geezzz how much money is FLDS paying HER?

  187. errrrr

    “The Devil made me do it!” YEAH yeah thats it!

  188. Thanks for documents on your site TxBluesMan! 🙂

  189. DD

    Not enough, I’d say… But what can she do?

    Its hard to raise a sunken ship!

  190. Well if Amy Hennington is trying to make a “name” for herself by defending the scumbags, she just made it,, and it’s NOT good.

  191. For some, ANY publicity is good publicity.

    That doesnt work for criminals, but perhaps for attorneys of such.

    Look at Johnny Cochran and Robert Shapiro.

  192. Many have crucified Natalie Malonis for defending these women and young girls!! The one issue Ive learned from this,,, Natalie Malonis has principals,, thats MUCH more important than Money!!

  193. Natalie really has stood head and shoulders above the attorney crowd in Texas.

    Perhaps part of the reason, is she was “helped along” by inheriting the worst case available.

    (lucky her – does she feel like Bruce some days?)

    At any rate she knows how bad they are and where to stick the sword in the monster!

    And it is good to see the prosecution tying this up nicely on the criminal side.

    The crimes as detailed will sober even the most drunk PPSG.

  194. HA stamp,,, I hope so, keep your fingers crossed!!! 🙂

  195. YAH!!! Carolyn won!!!!

  196. Read Blues Blog

  197. I am soooo happy for her.

  198. WHOOOOHOOO! I’m drinking the good stuff tonight!

  199. Gee after reading the “bad acts” filing I was struck with were are those children of Raymonds now? How many were returned to the YFZ Ranch? What’s the story on Raymond’s abandoned children back in Short Creek/YFZ Ranch? I read he married at least three teenage wives all celestial marriages? Is this the environment for children to be brought up or return to by the CPS/CASA authorities?

  200. WAY

    TO

    GO

    NATALIE

    ANGELA

    AND

    CAROLYN!

    A TOAST – FREEDOM FOR OPPRESSED WOMEN AND CHILDREN EVERYWHERE!

  201. cajim, I don’t know WHAT CPS was thinking!!

  202. I think CPS was confused by the message the SCOT sent.

    The air went out of their balloon.

    One would think the SCOT has had second thoughts though.

    But they pulled the trigger, now they gotta live with it.

    Let the criminal trials begin!

  203. All the PPSG blogs are silent, you can hear a pin drop!

    Hugh, Bill M, Grits, SLTRIB, Truth will Prevail, FLDS VIEW.

    (Brooke posted a small blurb on her blaugh but she personally has not one iota of data nor a personal comment)

    This is a FIRST – and as such, a historic moment for women and children whom are trapped inside polygamy.

    A sea change has swept the cults today.

  204. Brooke doesn’t have any info to post. She talked to a reporter at the San Angelo newspaper, and they’re not covering the child support case. And I guess it’s too far away/not important enough for SLT to send someone to cover it. Wonder if she’ll be in San Angelo for the criminal trials?

  205. Right. She doesn’t bring the priesthood the bad news. That’s for Deseret or some out of state news paper to do.

  206. “ZURICH, Switzerland (CNN) —

    Woody Allen, Pedro Almodovar and Martin Scorsese have “demanded the immediate release” of fellow filmmaker Roman Polanski, who was arrested in Switzerland on a U.S. arrest warrant related to a 1977 child sex charge.

    They were among 138 people in the film industry who signed a petition against the arrest.”

    WOW duane, sounds like THE WHOLE of Europe, led by Woody Allen and 137 Hollywood petition signers, want Roman released.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Movies/09/29/polanski.filmmakers.protest/index.html

    I’m UNDERWHELMED.

    Say, how bout that Merril Jessop fellow today? He decided to grow a pair huh? Or did he chicken out when he saw the evidence stacked up against him?

    Yeah, I think its the latter too!

  207. Betty

    She ‘did’ start a thread on it though, devoid of content and which simply pointed to Bluesmans site, (which in all honesty did a much better job than if she had flown out there and had a green burrito and got cold in the courtroom.)

    Blues has actual facts, data and anecdotes.

    Hopefully this will get good press coverage, being such a historic loss for polygamist abusers everywhere.

  208. A big thank you to TexasBluesMan for his prompt postings about what transpired in San Angelo today. Congrats to Natalie Malonis and Carolyn Jessop. Time to celebrate this eventful day with some ice cream and oreos.

  209. i think that Raymond’s trial will be covered by the press, but I think this hearing pretty much snuck up on everyone involved. It was probably helped along by the fact that Natalie filed a motion to continue. I live here and didn’t even know it was going on until I literally ran into Raymond in the lobby of the courthouse and then came home and asked Blues about it.

  210. Seems the only interview Willie will get will be when he gets back to SLC,, because San Angelo didn’t cover it, lol

  211. Texan

    I guess you could say it snuck up on Merril too but it bit him in the ass.

  212. the standard times just posted a story about raymond being a bad boy, but the story came out of san antonio.

  213. DD

    Brooke has…. errrr should have…. Wee Willies hotline…

    Time to give him a little ringy dingy..?

    “No comment, errrr I’m choking!”

  214. lmao stamp. it really took a large bite out of him, literally and figuratively.

  215. There was a rumor though – someone heard all the air go out of Willies Balloon.

    PPPPPPPPPP—FFFFFFFFFF—fffffffffffffffffffffffffffff–tttttttttttt

  216. Hmmm Funny, we havent heard the “Warren up your nose with a rubber hose” story this week.

    Maybe tommorrow…..

  217. i knew i should have gone back to the courthouse today.

  218. Brooke missed the story,,,, waaaaaaaaa waaaaaaaaaaa! lol 🙂

  219. Would have been worth the price of admission. WHAT, no youtube moment!?

    Dang Texas needs to get with the times!

  220. Judge Walther told Willie:

    “Sit down and shut the hell up, we will be taking comments after Merril squeals like a pig!”

  221. maybe i’ll suggest cameras in the courtroom to judge w next time i see her.

  222. Its become all the rage out west ha ha, I think there are Youtube videos of Warren being declared guilty by the jury.

    There is value in providing this as a public service. And I reckon a good crime detterent.

    What PFFFT wants to get PWNED on Youtube? Might make honest men out of a couple of them!

  223. Check it out

  224. Merril will be paying $2350 per month child support INDEFINITELY – yipee!!!!

  225. And isn’t that retroactive….calculator anyone??

  226. And his payments start October 1st – THURSDAY – day after tomorrow.

    Merril had better call John Wayman or go gather up all of the wives and kids and head to the blood bank and start selling some blood!

  227. “SAN ANTONIO — State attorneys allege a polygamist sect member set to for trial on bigamy and child sexual abuse charges next month deliberately skirted anti-money laundering laws.

    The Texas Attorney General’s Office also alleges Raymond Jessop used a wife he abandoned to front a company that could exploit contracting rules favoring women-owned businesses.”

    That’s Raymond Jessop. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/sep/29/prosecutors-say-polygamist-skirted-banking-law/

  228. Hey Natalie – if you read this anytime soon, care to let the rest of us in on whatever you were trying to pin on mudpuppy, or is his imagination working overtime again?

    ___________________________________

    Now, she rules that Johnny Hanna, the “Keeper of the Records” that were stolen from the Ranch can produce the same records he’s been passing around like confetti to anybody with an anti FLDS blog that will publish the material, or to his galpal, Natalie, who tried to sig her trained monkey on me. (Nah, it didn’t work, I’m about as afraid of Johnny and Natalie as I am of barbie.)

  229. anon @ 8:26 – i’m thinking he’s sending willie up to the crik to crack open some purses.

  230. soozie – i think the retroactive amount was a lump sum for some reason and that he’ll be making monthly payments on that amount along with his 2350 per month. arthur’s in college and my guess is that luanne’s gonna be going soon if she isn’t already, so i’m sure the money will be well used educating those two and with 5 more to come, it must be welcome.

  231. With such a high child support & past support amount owed, it would appear to me that Ms Malonis was able to show the court a high amount of income. Did Carolyn’s attorneys crack the pattern of hiding assets?

  232. Yes, Malonis shredded Merril on the stand. I didn’t cover it on my blog, but she asked question after question dealing with specific business and resources.

    Merril’s typical response was “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember” because every time that he lied, she nailed him on it.

    I especially liked that when he said the YFZ Land LLC was dissolved or defunct, and Natalie produced a document from the Texas Secretary of State, dated the day before, showing that YFZ Land was still a business entity in good standing and operating…

    Oops.

  233. you rock bluesman. keep up the good work. will you be able to keep us as posted during raymond’s trial?

  234. Attila I doubt that they’ll stop the pattern of hiding FLDS assets but yesterdays notice filing of “Extraneous Crimes” on Raymond Merril Jessop’s trial is the first time the tip of the iceberg raising the thought of invoking the RICO Act, surfaced in identifiable form. Also, that matter referred to as an “coercive correction” where the girl minor L.R. Jeffs was taken across statelines to be given witness,”…to a degree” in an Amarillo Motel, points toward invoking the Mann Act, as well.

    Illicit use of their funds to conduct nefarious and heinous acts is going to unravel this crime wave more than their attempts at hiding the assets.

  235. I sure hope so, cajim. I sure hope so. I suspect that they are dangling the evidence in hopes of plea bargaining.

  236. from what i’ve heard, the ag wants to go to trial with this one. he’s got a kid with janet and a kid with lenora, so that’s pretty hard evidence of a crime given the dates of birth of the children and the dates of birth of the girls/women involved. it doesn’t matter that they are now adults, they were minors when the action took place.

  237. Hey!

    Just wanted to say Congratulations and Job Well Done to Natalie, Angela and everyone who helped! I am extremly happy for Carolyn as well! I wish her and her children all the best!

    Ya’ll have been busy! 🙂 I’m trying to catch up!

  238. Betty I suspect it will take a few convictions then the balance of ‘Dirty Dozen’ indictments and the possibility of RICO/”Protection”/Mann Act(s) will trigger the ‘Come to Jesus’ meeting. Gee all owing to a series of bad breaks and misunderstandings, according to Pliggy and duane.

  239. Don’t forget the bigots. And Dan Fischer and company.

  240. I don’t understand why UTAH hasn’t been more forthcoming in investigations of fraud in Flds? My God all they have to do is read their own damn documented proof in the legal section of IRS liens, changing Warranty deeds back and forth under alias names.

  241. There will be a time when everyone has to answer for their deeds on this earth. I have a feeling that those of us who are so short on mercy but so long on judging others will not have it so easy. When we rejoice in the downfall of others, it is a sad day. I remember my father who served in WWI used to refuse to talk about the victory because of the hurt and devestation of the victims he observed. I cannot imagine how disillusioned and confused so many of the FLDS families must be these days. Can you imagine?

  242. linda – i wish i thought they were disillusioned and confused. all they are is mad and madder at the outside world for daring to call them on their crimes. that’s not right. these crimes have nothing to do with religion except they are trying to hide behind it since they’ve been caught.

  243. I’ve wondered if the FLDS might dump Merril out on a street like they did to his older brother Dan.

  244. merril had an older brother who was dumped? never knew that. i know they dumped a few of his sons, ernest being one and the cause of the current predicament that raymond finds himself in.

  245. cement,

    that sure would be cheaper than bailing him out of the mess he’s getting into. They could blame it on him and Merrill, sell the ranch, return the funds to the UEP, get the UEP distributed to the members and then start over, meanwhile letting the dirty dozen twist in the wind.

  246. “I have a feeling that those of us who are so short on mercy but so long on judging others will not have it so easy. ”

    So in the name of Christian mercy we should stop prosecuting crimes like rape and money laundering? For everyone? Or just for white people who wear modest clothing?

  247. There will be a time when everyone has to answer for their deeds on this earth. I have a feeling that those of us who are so short on mercy but so long on judging others will not have it so easy. When we rejoice in the downfall of others, it is a sad day. I remember my father who served in WWI used to refuse to talk about the victory because of the hurt and devestation of the victims he observed. I cannot imagine how disillusioned and confused so many of the FLDS families must be these days. Can you imagine?

    ****************************
    Linda , we make judgements daily in our lives, if we didn’t it would be a chaotic world. Christ said have mercy on those who need mercy. He didn’t say everyone would recieve mercy. He also said, Children should NOT be harmed. Im astonished that you would think its okay to break laws and commit criminal activity and everyone fall over themselves being merciful when children are the ones being harmed.

  248. I have no mercy for intentionally harming children, or women. I don’t care if the person is religious or not.

  249. i agree dd

  250. I am referring to the victims, those who have trusted and tried to be faithful as they were following their religion. Of course we need laws and crimes should be stopped and judgments have to be made in that regard. I believe that Christ taught us to be law abiding, but on a personal level to not be judgmental or we will be judged. We are to use righteous judgment, especially in regards to our own actions. Of course I do not advocate a lawless society. I appreciate so much those who are willing to work for law and order and a country which offers safety and so much opportunity. It is sad to me that our society is often so vile that it pushes groups into becoming secretive and isolated, and that leads to problems.

  251. Sigh. I don’t think this group ‘has problems’ because our society pushed them into being secretive and isolated. I think they are secretive and isolated because they have every intent of breaking the law! You can’t blame the FLDS on society any more than you can blame METH COOKERS on society. The fact that they have existed so long is a sign of the tolerance of our society, not the other way around. I’ve just heard that excuse one too many times.

    These few men and some of their wives have traded young girls across state lines, performed rape as learning experience, denied medical care to people in fear of their lives or in terrible pain, violated child labor laws right and left, evaded taxes, made fraudulent transfers of good and money, performed illegal banking procedures……just to name a few! That is not the fault of the greater society except that it has not yet given them the giant smack down they so richly deserve. The fact that they put on a pretense of religion makes me righteously angry and I think that if Jesus was here he’d thrown them out of the temple along with the money changers!

    I suspect that your heart is in the right place, but I think your head is….in the dark.

  252. “I cannot imagine how disillusioned and confused so many of the FLDS families must be these days. Can you imagine?”

    I don’t believe the majority are very disillusioned and confused yet. They are still clinging to their belief that the consequences of them choosing to follow and enable a criminal are simply religious persecution. I do not take an iota of joy in the thought of their inevitable disillusionment. I have read the stories of too many like Plygkid, Cement, Carolyn, and can imagine their pain too clearly. However, they have chosen this and sometimes you must bear the consequences of your choices. Ignoring the lawbreaking of this group has only lead to greater and greater offenses against the law. For the sake of everyone, including those people who will eventually be disillusioned, these actions were necessary. It doesn’t mean that anyone takes joy in another’s pain, we will simply take joy in the knowledge that these people won’t be hurting anyone else.

  253. “Sigh. I don’t think this group ‘has problems’ because our society pushed them into being secretive and isolated. I think they are secretive and isolated because they have every intent of breaking the law!”

    Hear! Hear!

  254. Linda you seem to finally be coming around to the view where the truth is pulling out onto yourn horizon. Do you know this fundamentalist LDS history in Short Creek, the closed schools, bankrupted utilities and defrocked Police Department? Are you aware they have their UEPTrust presently tied up in Federal Court and being administered under a third party administrator? You need to learn that this is a renegade Theocracy embedded in our duly elected democracy. Your judging those trying to expose the abuses as wanting to harm and rather the thought is to enforce Law & Order on a runaway sect violating most codes of conduct and decency under the guise of their chosen religion, Prohibition bootleggers weren’t just unlicensed liquor distributors and your naivete is still showing. How many non-profits do you know of operate their finances with pre-paid credit cards, money orders or just bags of cash? Certainly you would see rogue behaviors in these acts and no accountability in the stewardship/leadership. Something very odd is being allowed to transpire in a underworld style and fashion.

  255. Rebeckah, I think you made a good point. Our society did not push them into being secretive and isolated. Lots of people become disgusted and want to get away from it all and go into communities where things are safer, “greener” or more innocent or simpler….lots of reasons. Perhaps the motive for being isolated has been more to do with just wanting to do their own thing and “stick to their own kind.” The abusers or law breakers are another matter. I just dont think you can lump “them” all together and make a judgement.

  256. Linda Lamb
    You need to go read about persecution complex! Flds has used this as a excuse for so long, it’s worn out!
    Even 1953, no one was persecuting their faith, or religion, but their lawlessness. But through the years, they have hung on to that tag of persecution, and THROW kids pictures up trying to gain public opinion on their side of breaking the law of this country.
    Do you really believe if you are I had been doing the criminal activities Flds have done for generations, we wouldn’t have already been caught and convicted?
    We would both be sitting in jail for 15 to 20yrs!

  257. you sure can lump them all together. they are all supporting and defending the lawbreakers so that makes them guilty also. kinda like all the adults who were on the ranch when warren jeffs was living there are guilty of aiding a fugitive escape the justice system. are they all going to be arrested? probably not, but there is potential there for all of them to be arrested.

  258. “Doing their own thing”

    Linda, where have you been? The leadership in this group don’t have kill anyone, they simply excommunicate them from the community, take their wives and children away from them, remarry the wife and give the man’s children to another man. It’s called controlling individuals, and no one has the right to committ the actions FLDS leadership has done for years!

  259. Linda Lamb the ones who are faithful believers have been asked to believe that all outsiders a EVIL Gentiles, child Brides are O.K., minimum age to marry is menses, ending formal education at 8th Grade, Polygyny is normal/lawful, Black persons are allied with the devil, etc. Please, don’t defend a Victorian Era set of beliefs which were outlawed, even back then.

  260. you’ve got to go over an read mudpuppy’s post about barbie, the comments are hilarious. duane is accusing people of religious bigotry for pointing out the shannon medical center is in san angelo and not eldorado.

  261. Thousand of MEN in the US have been convicted the last 20yrs of aassault on women and children. Some were fathers, Teachers, Doctors, lawyers, Uncles, neighbors, you name it, they were judged for their actions.
    But, Flds have been doing the same criminal activities for years and years, and officals have set by and allowed it to happen, even when young women reported it.

  262. in raymond’s case, his underage wives didn’t have to report it, they have kids who were born while they were underaged. i feel especially sorry for j. they were willing to let her and her baby die just to make sure raymond didn’t get in trouble. her own mother stood by and did nothing on the warren’s orders. i guess she too would have just stood by and let the poor girl die so raymond wouldn’t get in trouble. that’s not motherly love in my book, but then again, sally has how many girls who were married and had kids while underage?

  263. I really don’t understand. I had an abusive husband. You know what made me get out? The way he treated his own daughter. I figured if he could do that to a child, then what could he do to me? Oddly, he treated his dogs really well.

  264. (Post approved – regardless that every point is debatable -though admittedly there is some gray area – For instance Carolyn had a College education – how many other wives of Merrils have the same? Can you even name all Merrils wives, or know their number? How many of Warren’s wives went to college?) – ADMIN

    ——————————————–

    Linda Lamb the ones who are faithful believers have been asked to believe that all outsiders a EVIL Gentiles[no they don’t believe that else they wouldn’t be speaking to me or thers}, child Brides are O.K.[the majority of marriages were of legal age, many never witnessed a “child bride” marraige], minimum age to marry is menses [this is not true], ending formal education at 8th Grade [another like, many have post secondary education-even poster child Carolyn Jessop had a college degree].

    Linda, don’t be taken in by them. A few allegedly bad apples doesn’t make them all guilty.

  265. If there wasnt so much exaggeration of the faults of others and generalization in our views of others and if there was just a little, just a little more compassion……

    And that goes for all of us……..every single one of us…..

    Our country would be much kinder..our world would be much better.

    Gotta go to church tonight….got a lot to pray about. You know how we horrible ole southern baptists are. : )

  266. “I just dont think you can lump “them” all together and make a judgement.”

    I am only lumping them all together insofar as I realize that most, if not all, are either feeling pain or going to.

    That makes me sad. Allen Steed’s life may very well be ruined because he listed to his prophet.

    That makes me sad. Elissa Wall’s life was ruined because the people who were supposed to protect her listened to the prophet.

    That makes me sad. I don’t want to see people lose their houses (and I don’t believe the state wants to do that either) and I don’t want to see people hurt. However the choices have been made on the FLDS side of the equation and I don’t see any other alternative than rigorous prosecution of abusers and lawbreakers within the sect.

    Utah and Arizona ignored them for too long and they now feel they’re above the law. That isn’t true and it should have been made clear decades ago. The men, women, and children in that town have a right to law enforcement which will take complaints and follow up on them legally rather than running to the bishop or the prophet.

    They have a right to be heard in the government and have a say in matters, whether they are FLDS in good standing or not. The girls have a right to grow up before deciding whether or not to marry and have children. They have a right to go to the hospital when they’ve had three days of “strong” labor instead of being left to live or die on their own so their “husband” doesn’t face legal consequences. It almost sounds to me like you’re advocating more of Arizona and Utah’s see no evil, hear no evil, prosecute no evil mentality.

    It is not, in the long run, beneficial to the ordinary, good hearted individuals within the FLDS to spare them pain now and allow them to suffer over the long term. The treatment for an infected sore is to lance it and apply antibiotics, not to cover it with a band aid and hope it gets better.

  267. Linda I believe in praying. I know you probably can’t understand why so many here, see what has happened differently than you.
    For instance, There are many muslims who believe in Sharia Laws.
    These laws are as barbaric as the laws Flds follow,, actually worse, because in Sharia law, the husband can legally kill his wife for leaving him. He can beat her at will, and if she reports it, she will no longer be here.
    How compassionate is that?

    Now the documents posted on TxBluesMan’s site are from the court. Would you have compassion on a bunch men calling themselves leaders, who allowed an underage girl to go 30hr in hard labor with her first child, and having the Head Honcho tell the other leadership, DONT take her to a hospital,, because we can get into trouble… because the girl is underage and married to man with more than one wife…
    Where is your compassion Linda?

  268. I can pray that these twelve men accept and experience the Grace of God, but they usually don’t make my prayer list—there are many others on it and mine is a finite human brain. And I certainly believe the ultimate—cosmic—judgment is God’s and God’s alone.

    But even with that, I think that if found guilty the Twisted Twelve deserve the harshest penalties the law permits.

    And there is absolutely no conflict between these two ideas.

  269. Linda, I don’t think you can make an argument for compassion for these fellows from a Scriptural basis.

    Hesed (the “mercy” of Micah 6:8) is intertwined with justice in the Bible. And the Bible, over and over, shows compassion shown to the least of God’s children, not to their abusers.

    I’m sure you’re familiar with Psalm 141:5, which reads, “Let the righteous man strike me–it is a kindness; let him rebuke me–it is oil on my head.”

    The word “kindness” here is the Hebrew word “hesed” which sometimes means faithfulness or loyalty, sometimes kindness and mercy, sometimes mutual responsibility, but always understood as conduct in accordance with a MUTUAL relationship of rights and duties—man-to-God, or man-to-man. This “hesed” is always understood in a framework of justice, hence Micah’s great statement that the Lord requires man to “do justice, love ‘hesed’ and walk humbly with his God.”

  270. Linda wrote: “If there wasnt [sic] so much exaggeration of the faults of others and generalization in our views of others and if there was just a little, just a little more compassion……

    “And that goes for all of us……..every single one of us…..”

    Well, see, Linda, here’s another problem. You get to confess YOUR sins. I get to confess MY sins. You don’t get to assign sins to me. Frankly, I like spending my compassion on victims, not perps, but it’s awfully damned presumptuous to ascribe sins to people you don’t even know.

    Talk about generalization!

  271. “A few allegedly bad apples doesn’t make them all guilty.”

    Nah, just the elite ruling caste.

  272. Allegedly.

  273. Remember Ananias and Saffira,,, when Paul asked them what they did with all the money they promised to give??
    Well they both lied,,, and oppps,, they died instantly…
    Did paul say excuse me,, or were they judged by God immediately?

  274. I know I got the two names spelled wrong but didn’t have a bible in front of me,l ol

  275. I think it’s terribly important to remember that underage sex workers—whether from El Salvador or Utah—are victims. They’re victims whether they’re struggling to feed themselves or whether they’re struggling to make it to ‘heaven’.

    Our compassion should be with them, not with the men who rape them.

  276. duane you putz get a grip the only thing to follow this Texas Exodus is going to be the Deluge of Information that is going to inundate any remainders of doubt. Better get a good raft and get ready the trials are soon to begin and the trials will flood the “Dirty Dozen” like Noah’s Ark, literally awash in data and facts all from covert and sequestered documents hidden away from Public & Press scrutiny and judgments.

  277. Not wrong at all when you consider that they weren’t spelled “Ananias and Sapphira” at the time (different alphabet).

    Great example. What was their crime? Religious hypocrisy. Lying to the Holy Spirit. Stealing from God.

    Hmmm.

  278. Linda Lamb

    I realize that the allegations are many and perhaps hard to believe.

    I ask you – implore you – to go to the bookstore and pick up a copy of Carolyn Blackmores’s Book – ESCAPE.

    This court drama is just the latest chapter. In the book, Carolyn gives an accurate – though microcosmic – account of her personal life in the group.

    She doesnt extrapolate much, so you are really just seeing one families situation.

    No it doesnt speak for the entire FLDS – it speaks for the family of the # 2 man in the FLDS.

    But its a good start. There are other books as well – many in fact, and some paint a much worse picture.

    For instance, you may know that Ervil Lebaron had 25 people killed in Texas and other states in his polygamist power struggle.

    Thankfully, not all sects are like that. He was the worst. But the Lafferties tried to be #2, and didnt get far.

    But please, read ESCAPE.

    You will see some abusers, but many victims.

  279. You know what the world needs right now? A good Roman Polanski joke.

  280. Well, I have sort of a bad one. 8^).

  281. Compassion, yes I have compassion and have expressed my compassion in very tangible ways. I have compassion for the victims of the tenets of the religion that the FLDS follow, I have compassion for the men, women and children who have been born into the FLDS religion and from birth are indoctrinated into those tenets. I have ABSOLUTELY NO compassion for the members of the FLDS or any other person that CHOOSES to break the laws of the United States and the respective states they live in. I have ABSOLUTELY NO compassion for the men of the FLDS or any other man that CHOOSES to make concubines of underage girls. I have ABSOLUTELY NO compassion for the men of the FLDS or any other man that CHOOSES to RAPE little girls. I have ABSOLUTELY NO compassion for any FLDS mother or father that CHOOSES to SELL their daughter into PROSTITUTION or any other parent that makes that CHOICE. I have ABSOLUTELY NO compassion for any member of the FLDS that even if they did not commit these acts themselves they made the CHOICE to do NOTHING to put an end to these acts. Yes it does seem the members of the FLDS have choices, unfortunately they have CHOSEN to follow a mentally ill “prophet”, unfortunately they have CHOSEN to commit these horrendous crimes. It is now time that they face the consequences of these CHOICES and I for one feel no guilt for hoping they first spend many, many, many years in prison for these CHOICES and second that they burn in hell for these CHOICES.

  282. Did you hear about Roman Polanski’s new movie? He’s going to call it “Close Encounter with the Third Grade”.

  283. Did you hear what Roman Polanski said about his new cell mate? “he’s my daddy….he’s my girlfriend….he’s my daddy….he’d my girlfriend…”

    BAD BETTY. Go to your room.

  284. Just wind her up, set her on the table, and watch her take off…

  285. I’m with you nearly to the end, Sadie. But I’d be happier if they served their prison time but repented and avoided hell, myself.

  286. I’m here all week. Try the veal.

  287. Well, Duane, not all the FLDS are getting prosecuted either. But why do you try to minimize underage marriages? Is 49% OK? 23%? 15%?

    Why the continual minimization?

    –They were barely illegal.
    –The majority of the marriages were legal.
    –Warren gave one man instructions to wait until she was ready before physical contact.
    –We don’t know if they were consummated or not.

  288. See Roman Polanski star in that movie “VIRGIN TERMINATOR”?

    Or how about that movie “Roman – First Blood”

    “2 FAST 2 FURIOUS 2 LAME”

    “Gone With The Qualuude”

    “The French Kissing Connection”

    “Roman Polanski – 0069” (not 007)

    “Finished in 60 Seconds”

    “Band of Brothers and Little Sisters”

  289. “Woody Allen on Roman Polanski? Really?

    By Jo-Ann Armao

    LOL.

    That was my first reaction at seeing Woody Allen’s name on the top of a petition demanding justice for director Roman Polanski.

    Here, after all, was one pervert using his supposed good name in defense of another: a little like Billy the Kid speaking up for Jesse James.”

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/

  290. I agree cement!

  291. Personally, I don’t believe duane has respect for ANY woman!

  292. GFNY, you said:

    “Well, see, Linda, here’s another problem. You get to confess YOUR sins. I get to confess MY sins. You don’t get to assign sins to me. Frankly, I like spending my compassion on victims, not perps, but it’s awfully damned presumptuous to ascribe sins to people you don’t even know. Talk about generalization!”

    You really jumped and ran with that, didnt you? I didnt ascribe sins to you or anyone. I dont think any of us really know each other on here and I wouldnt want to be presumptuous in making judgments against anyone. Instead, I am just expressing my concern for any of US that refuse to have compassion.

    Any by the way, Jesus extended compassion and mercy to a perp, the convicted thief on the cross.

  293. Ladiesadie is basically saying that the FLDS beliefs are evil to their core however other than polygamy they are essentially LDS.

    While I certainlly don’t agree with all of their beliefs and that Warren showed bad judgement; the problem is that the proposed solution is much, much scarier than the purported “disease”. The vast majority of their underage marriages were a barely illegal. If Raymond and others had simply divorced their legal wives and then legally married the 16 and 17 year olds, then their sexual relatons would have been legal and there would be no stat rape charges and no “victims” as the sex would have been “legal”.

    What ladiesadie and others would like to see done is for all of them to be jailed for bigamy with the attendent destruction of their familes…the numbers would be in the tens of thousands. That would be frightening if carried out to its logical conclusion.

  294. what duane/deci/godspecialone/and all his other sockpuppets is basically saying is he is a troll and can’t read! OL set some troll kibble out for duane.

  295. Linda Lamb, you wrote: “And that goes for all of us……..every single one of us…..”

    I consider myself part of “every single one of us” so you have indeed cast aspersions on me without knowing me. And on a number of other people here whose acts of compassion are known to me.

    As for the thief on the cross, he is just like me—he’s a sinner who accepted the invitation of the Resurrected Christ, and by accepting grace was saved. Jesus did NOT remove the nails from the hands of the thief or miraculously negate his trial. He gave him the greater gift of grace, but did nothing—nada, zip—about the thief’s day in court.

    Remember… there were two thieves.

  296. Get a grip, Duane. Perhaps you and Linda Lamb could meet for coffee and compare sweeping generalizations.

  297. greetings,

    I was using the collective term and speaking of myself as well. It is particularly sad when believers wound each other.
    You are obviously very intelligent and quite educated in religious studies, but I find your teachings and corrections rather condescending.

  298. Actually Linda, with no offense at all intended, you come across as rather condescending too. Perhaps, rather than focusing on all of the negative you believe you see you could try some positive suggestions. For instance, if you believe that the people of the FLDS who have committed crimes should not be held accountable by the law then perhaps you could come up with another idea as to how the greater society can control lawless behavior? Or, perhaps you could train yourself to see the difference between a person who is gloating because an arrogant and cruel man has been held accountable from a person who is thrilled that a hardworking and courageous mother has won a long deserved victory. In my case it’s something of a vicarious victory since neither of my daughter’s father didn’t pay support for over 10 years and never had to pay a dime in back support and my son’s father was ever held accountable for his act in fathering him.

  299. Rebeckah, I can certainly understand your point of view and reason for your feelings. And I apologize if I come across as condescending, for that is something I really do not want to do. It is against all that I believe in. Something to consider as I head to bed.

  300. Linda, this isnt a religious website. It’s a website for discussion about a cult. You do know what a Cult is, correct?
    There is a big difference between a religious church and how it is ran, that is different to an insular cult, which does NO missionary work, considers themselver above everyone else, even to the point they are above the law in this nation.
    I have HUGE compassion for women and children who are abused, neglected and assaulted. As far as men who take it upon themselves to degrade women to the point of believing they are worth nothing more than breeding, feedings and being a servant, I have NO respect or compassion and I trully don’t believe God would either.

  301. GFNY, you are assertive this evening. I like that about you.

  302. God talked about women being a helpmeet for their husbands, not a doormat.

  303. And some of us don’t have husbands — and that’s okay too. 😀

  304. Edited for trolling and untrusted link – ADMIN

  305. Linda, a year ago, I had a much more open mind about the FLDS. Then a wealth of source material was released including the dictations, court records, depositions, and more. I read it all, assiduously, and I sought out other material that will probably never see the light of day. I read that, too, assiduously. And I was left with the leaden realization that the problems within the FLDS are far more pervasive and serious than I had hitherto believed.

    I wasn’t alone in that. A year ago, the Trib’s boards were a lively, evenly-matched fray. Now the majority of the FLDS’ defenders have taken their toys and gone home.

    Have you read the hundreds of pages of source documents on this site and elsewhere? Have you read any of the books which discuss Mormon polygamy—books by a host of diverse writers ranging from Jon Krakauer and Ben Bistline to survivors like Dorothy Allred Solomon, Carolyn Jessop, and Elissa Wall?

    Some of the “uncompassionate” souls here have spent years studying this issue, some are directly involved with the community, and some have rescued women and children from FLDS compounds. Their desire for vengeance comes from their compassion for the victims, who are in some cases not abstractions, but real live people they know.

  306. duane you don’t want to see a resolution but it’s coming down the track and will arrive at the depot because the Truth is going to be shown bright all over the Public airways and Press coverages , whether you like it or not. You argue against any and all resolutions and are powerless to stop any of them, blogging your way to freedom isn’t a resolution either. No amendment, no Capitol bill, no Court judgment, no proposition and no effective political organization is going to solve these issues in your favor nor the FLDS Church. “Dirty Dozen” go to trial and convictions will ignite a firestorm of Public outcry to remedy this situation.

    duane you have no constituency, no movement and no chance of stopping the Law & Order that will inevitably prevail and that is the TRUTH!

  307. They still let ole dog duane deci post here? I thought and sincerely hoped he had been banned by now. Oh well, just a matter of time (hope it is a short time) before he does more stupid troll stuff and gets permanently banned.

  308. At least that pompous mcbryde pharisee got the boot.

    duane is on moderation – probation, and his last post was deleted for trolling. – ADMIN

  309. It seems to me that Ms Lamb’s pity, compassion and tolerance run in one direction only. She sees faults and intolerance of those who want to see flds members who committed criminal acts while seldom, if ever, faulting the criminals. Granted, there may be some gloating or over exubarance as some of the flds are brought to justice. The same was probably true when Hitler was defeated and killed himself, or when some notorious criminal is finally made to pay for his crimes.

  310. Chemist, I thought I had said many times that criminals should be stopped and punished. No one wants to see abuse against children or women or bigotry of any kind. When people of faith are accused of criminal behavior, it is horrible, embarassing and casts a shadow on us all. And those who are in places of leadership in churches (as well as government, etc.) should be proven to be good examples and live according to the law, both God’s and government. At least this is my conviction.

    It’s just sad that bad leadership for whatever reason can cast such a blight on an entire group of people who really might be some of the kindest souls around. I know I come across as naive and ignorant, and very simple minded. That’s okay. I have read every single thing I could find about all this – all the books, articles, everything. And I still hope to see a book from inside about how these folks really feel about all this. It is a sad, very sad thing.

  311. What bothers me is that many of the flds followers must be aware that they are following the guidance of people who are committing criminal acts. Yet, these people continue to follow them, some even aid and abet the criminal leaders. I am sure there are innocent people in the group and I do feel sorrow and pity for them. Their donations to their church are going for legal expenses and not to build up the group. Their church and lives must be in turmoil. I would also like to learn more about what the run of the mill members think, however if they are publically critical of the leaders they are subject to being ousted, losing their homes, children, and spouse. That is why you hear mostly from those who have left or been expelled or from the leaders themselves.

  312. I too feel compassion for the members of this group who have been indoctrinated to believe. The fact that so very few members are converts suggests that, it is impossible to judge this religion as a “faith of choice”. Hence the compassion for its members.

    However, as a society made of laws based on the premise of individual freedoms, and a rule of the majority with protection for the minorities, we are allowed, indeed obligated to make judgements on the impact of various organizations (religious or otherwise) within our society.

    The basic tenets of FLDS: revelation through one living prophet, chosen group of individuals with important bloodlines (no missionary search for new members), communal goods, male only priesthood, and polygyny, has shown through time and through various offshoots to be a system which will evolve and foster systematic abuse of the indoctrinated (born into) members. As a result I do believe that it is a system that should be addressed and, yes, Duane, eliminated, from our society.

    Please note the specificity of my words – I do not suggest that faith be eliminated, nor that individuals be eliminated, but that system be eliminated as incompatible with the basic beliefs of our society and of human rights.

  313. Chemist, that’s what bugs me too and what finally changed my mind.

    Remember that story from the hearing about Isaac Wyler’s field rental, how his leased property was vandalized for the entire time he rented it, culminating in his horse being run down and left with a broken back? How when he abandoned it, Wee Willie ‘squatted’ on the land and the vandalism immediately stopped?

    To me that’s a sign of a complicit community, not one which is passively sitting under the thumb of a bad leader. I assume most of the FLDS are not evil but I do think most of them are complicit and thus behaving badly.

    Linda wants to read ‘from the inside’. She can; there is that apologist blog featuring the writing of current FLDS members (can’t remember what it’s called). But she really ought not assume that apostates like Cement are somehow less ‘authentic’ than those still in the group.

    There is a website which someone once pointed out which had writings about the FLDS from a Christian perspective. (It’s where I learned about Dorothy Allred Solomon.) It was affiliated with a weekly Utah radio show. If anyone can remember what it is, Linda might find it extremely interesting reading.

    OK, I’ve blown off work for long enough. TTYL.

  314. HHG—brilliant post. You said it better than any of the rest of us have. Thanks.

  315. There goes that great minds thing again GFNY, I was going to thank HHG for her post also, she expressed the feelings of many of us so well!

  316. Yes, the complicit thing really bothers me as well. Also, I think any time a group, nation, whatever, adopts a one man rule model with that ruler having virtually unchecked power; that group or nation is headed for disaster. We have seen that over and over again.

  317. Linda?

    Kindest souls around? You just lumped them all in a class where they simply dont belong.

    Neither are they all bad.

    If you read all those books, and you actually understand “what up” you realize that mothers give up their young girls to pedophiles.

    You understand that the leaders and many men partake in defiling children. Incest is rampant.

    I dont see how you know all this, and then say they are all the “Kindest souls around”…

    Really, thats beyond being ignorant. You claim you know the crimes and yet you dont see much problem with it. You become complicit.

    You protect NO CHILD. YOU ENDANGER CHILDREN.

  318. But, but, but, Stamp, they all have on clean modest clothing, the children have such nice manners, they are all blond haired and blue eyed, the wives are demur and defer to the MEN of the group……they must be the “kindest souls around”.

    It seems that those are the only things that matter to Ms. Lamb.

  319. GFNY — good to see you posting again. This may be the website you were talking about — weekly show from Utah from a Christian perspective about Mormon fundamentalist polygamy. Polygamy: What Love Is This? is hosted by Doris Hanson, who was raised in polygamy (different sect than FLDS). http://whatloveisthis.tv/ is the link to her weekly TV show and her ministry is called A Shield and Refuge (http://whatloveisthis.tv/). They help women seeking to leave polygamy.

  320. LS

    I think I struck Lindas point – she is afraid the bad press on “FLDS” brings a bad name on religion in general.

    She needs to step back and look at the fruits.

    Do they help, or harm women and children? Use that as your first litmus test, its easy and obvious.

    BTW Linda, you do realize there are false prophets dont you? Go to step two and check their prophecies.

  321. Gotta love this: “A polygamist sect member set to go on trial on a sexual assault charge asked a judge Wednesday to exclude allegations about multiple marriages and illegal bank activity, saying the accusations are unsubstantiated and unfairly prejudicial.” http://is.gd/3Qzcc (Associated Press story in Deseret News)

    Sorry, Raymond. Your “bad acts” have caught up with you and you are going to have to face the consequences.

  322. Thanks for the link to the DesNews article. This line from that story is precious:

    “He also objected to prosecutors accusing Jessop of being closely aligned with Warren Jeffs, the jailed FLDS leader who was on the FBI’s most wanted list before being arrested and convicted in Utah as an accomplice to rape.”

    How can he possibly dis-associate himself from warren jeffs? Just more short creek tithing going to a gentile lawyer for a useless pleading.

  323. Chemist, I laughed at that line too. Imagine saying that he was not associated with Warren Jeffs! The house of cards is crashing around them.

  324. Somehow I bet they can substantiate those claims.

  325. How is taking other under aged plural wives NOT relevant to the punishment phase of that exact same crime?

  326. Well, Warren S. Jeffs was in residence at the YFZ Ranch while he was on the FBI ‘Ten Most Wanted’ list, so I could see why Raymond’s attorney would want to distance his client from the Prophet. I think Willie R. Jessop said it best when asked why the FLDS Church didn’t disavow Warren and his actions if the FLDS Church wanted to truly rehabilitate itself in the Public/Press views, he likened it to we would sooner deny Jesus Christ as Christians than deny our Prophet. I think Mark Stevens doesn’t understand that Raymond could be apostated for claiming such a position.

  327. How is taking other under aged plural wives NOT relevant to the punishment phase of that exact same crime?
    ================================================
    I guess because it’s an allegation rather then proof. Is my life in danger because I post here? Some blogs seem to suggest so.

  328. Well, the document that Stevens filed would be the companion to the one filed by the AG’s office. Tomorrow they will have a hearing and hash out what can and can’t be brought up. That’s what a Motion in Limine is for.

    As for disassociating himself with Warren, Stevens better check with Raymond about that. Raymond’s still trying to get back in the cult.

  329. Alin, First of all if you are soooo worried why did you post? Second I have just a few words for you:

    Klaxon
    Lamer
    Loopy
    Nitpick
    Palooka
    Pinko
    Sycophant

  330. Heh! Just taking one of your words at random, say Pinko, and I say you are about as wrong as you can get. Let those commie bastard say it’s the state responsibility to raise your kids. As a true blue american I say it’s up to the parents.

  331. Hey FLDS Texas – can you check your email please.

    Thanks

  332. LadySadie – I have no clue what most of those mean.

  333. proudtexan, go here and you will understand:

    http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm

  334. Whisper maintains a benign demeanor and carefully avoids open conflict. When aroused, however, she will send vigorous attacks to sympathetic forum participants via private e mail in an attempt to sway the tide of battle.
    ==============================================
    Hey FLDS Texas – can you check your email please

    Heh! Too typical.

  335. Nope, sorry Ali 10, I was just asking if they could get the document they just posted. Nothing special.

  336. “I guess because it’s an allegation rather then proof.”

    I believe they have rather ironclad proof, hence his forthcoming trial. (I’m thinking DNA from a child from one of his underage brides.)

    “Is my life in danger because I post here? Some blogs seem to suggest so.”

    No. Some people are prone to histrionics. Hugh McBryde comes to mind…

  337. Actually, I find the Alins to fit the Artful Dodger description best, although I’m willing to consider others. I have to admit Furious Typer has been an accurate description of me from time to time. 😉

  338. Thanks for finding that, TexasConnie.

    You are correct, the link is http://www.whatloveisthis.tv/index.htm. If Linda Lamb is interested in the interstices between Christian faith and Mormon polygamy, it’s a great place to start.

    I notice the website has been redesigned since I last visited, and some of the text reference has been moved here: http://www.shieldandrefuge.org/index.htm

    Glad you missed me. I was working and traveling; cuts into my drinking time.

  339. I can’t say I understand the response to Raymond’s Bad Acts, since I am in no position to judge the statement that TRE Rule 609 requires a conviction for the allegations to be considered as “beyond a reasonable doubt.” (Where the heck did “Ron in Houston” go while I was AWOL?)

    But if admissible, the claims certainly are relevant. The emphasis bank fraud and aiding Jeffs when he was on the lam implies that RICO sanctions may be forthcoming.

  340. I don’t think they have to prove that he aided Jeffs. I think the fact that he was getting married to someone officiated by Jeffs during the time Jeffs was on the run is proof.

  341. Oh, I realize that—he aided and abetted a fugitive by not reporting him to authorities when he saw him. I was just trying to save keystrokes.

  342. i knew you probably realized it, it’s Ali 10 who doesn’t. I’m thinking that Raymond didn’t read the Motion his attorney filed to thoroughly because I’m not sure he’d be too happy about the attorney saying he shouldn’t be lumped with Warren. I thought that was something that would make the FLDS members happy.

  343. I thought that Raymond was also charged with Bigamy and Underaged Sex with Lenora. Are they going to try those two thing separately or is it all going to be lumped into this trial?

  344. If we consult this handy-dandy program compiled by TexasFLDS, he seems to be up to bat only this once and on the one count:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/flds-financial-and-legal-menu-fall-2009/

  345. This, from a story about Elizabeth Smart’s testimony (from Times of London):

    “But she also said his religious revelations seemed to come only when he wanted something, or when he was trying to calm Ms Barzee. Ms Smart said she believed Mr Mitchell always knew that he could be punished for her kidnapping and understood how the court system worked.”

  346. it doesn’t make sense that they aren’t going to try him for lenora. she too was underage and has a kid.

  347. Who the heck is this sock puppet using the screen name Linda Lamb? Is he/she another effigy of Plyggy Holmes? It’s plainly not worth sharing a clue with.

  348. proudtexan, do you know in which State the sex crime against Lenore occurred? If it’s not Texas then I don’t believe that Texas can prosecute. We know of many more there at the sex compound in west Texas but that occurred in those other States.

  349. I thought the bad acts said he married Lenora in Eldorado.

  350. I didn’t know any of the FLDS married in Schleicher County. I don’t even see how they could have if she didn’t qualify to legally marry in Texas. Never mind, they don’t marry, now that you mention it. They don’t register births, either.

  351. You can prove one of two crimes happened, but you can’t prove which one. Ron, how does that work? He either fathered children in Texas or transported a minor across state lines to do it elsewhere.

  352. Check out fuel receipts and suchlike.

  353. Cement, I believe the transported across state lines had to do with the “correction” one of Warren’s wives received.

  354. Yeah, that disturbing paragraph that haunts me.

  355. I was referring to the defense stating “you don’t know what state conception actually occurred in.” I wasn’t referring to the mind games being played to get girls submissive.

  356. That has got to be one of the funniest papers I have read in forever. Thanks I needed that. I love how these guys work. Like I have said before…. Welcome to the Molestial Kingdom… I am gonna be a God…. and nothing I do can be used against me in man’s court of law. Good stuff. Just because he did the crimes how dare us GENTILES try to use that against this MAN who will be a GOD. Watch out… He will likely try to become the God over Texas as revenge. Move over Jesus here comes Raymond LOL

  357. Ahh, I understand now. Seems to me it doesn’t much manage which one he goes with he’s still up a tree without a paddle. 😉

  358. “Coercion Correction” I have been asking the Aiders and Abettor Society members about that one. Which section of the D & C references correcting by coercion? Teaching the way of the world and how alone one will be…..to a degree. I think here we’re talking about a direct revelation Warren must of had with the Almighty, so don’t blame Warren he’s just the messenger. Giving witness and correction in a motel room seems quite ominous.

  359. Yes Rebeckah or he’s just up a creek with his branch in his hand. I think we may have mixed up these metaphors?

  360. I’m sure Raymond has already gathered in a prayer circle and in the authority of their Pristhood, damned everything relating to Texas and the trial. I used to participate in these types of fasts, but now, I realize it is nothing more than a tissy fit in the name of God.

  361. Cement

    Amen to that! But do they have a brick wall like Warren gets?

  362. lol, yes Cajim. My family has always done that for fun. So you’re either up the tree without a paddle or up the crick without a ladder, either way it isn’t good. hehe

  363. Flora

    Yeah that was a hoot! They will be wringing their hands over this stuff the next couple years.

    The Molestial Kingdom is getting its tent taken down!

  364. Here is the article from the Seoul Times that has the pro-FLDS apologists up in arms today: http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=8875 My take: if they don’t want to be compared to Yemeni tribes that marry children … well, they shouldn’t marry children. Accompanying the story about the FLDS in this international newspaper is a photo of a Yemeni girl who got a divorce at age 10.

  365. Hey, Cement, if it makes them feel powerful then I say, go for it.

    Usually when I have a hissy fit it involves hot water and dishes and a lot of griping and grumbling to myself and leaves me with a clean kitchen. I like to make my anger and/or frustration work fo rme. 😀

  366. Yes, TexasConnie, and now she’s dead. Says something very sad about how women and children are treated in polygynist societies. America doesn’t need to be like that. A story linked to it on the bottom Child Bride Tragedy, tells of the fate that Janet was fortunate enough to avoid. After three days of hard labor (in a hospital) this girl and her baby both died. It’s time these abuses are stopped!

  367. Wow! Words I have been using without knowing their meaning and then take time to Google to see if it is “tissy fit” or “hissy fit” and I have been using the wrong one without knowing it. Sorry admin, I didn’t intend to be vulgar.

  368. lol, I figured it was just a regional thing — like soda or pop.

  369. me too rebeckah, but if you look up cement version “tissy fit” on urban dictionary:

    tissy fit 1 up, 4 down love it hate it

    An uncontrolled rant or uproar generally attributed to a male homosexual in which the rant or uproar has female overtones of hysteria.
    Frank had a tissy fit when he heard that his boyfriend spent the night with George.

    ***

    It at least fits Seth, LOL.

  370. I was thinking Perez Hilton is the consumate Tissy Fit.

    But look at the votes, urban dictionary doesnt have a good handle on this one.

  371. lol, I did not know that. Now I’m going to be giggling all day about the Priesthood having “tissy” fits.

  372. Stamp I’m thinking that urban dictionary doesn’t have a good handle on this one because too many men had tissy fits when they read it, LOL.

  373. SAN ANGELO, Texas — A West Texas judge will allow prosecutors to use thousands of pages of documents seized during a raid on a polygamist ranch.

    The decision will allow jurors in the upcoming trials of 12 men from the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to see some of the documents.

    The documents come from an April 2008 raid on the FLDS-owned Yearning for Zion Ranch.

    The first sect member to face a criminal trial pleaded not guilty Friday to sexual assault of a child.

    Raymond Jessop entered his plea Friday before Texas District Judge Barbara Walther in San Angelo. He’s set for an Oct. 26 trial in Eldorado (ehl-duh-RAY’-doh), a tiny town of near the ranch about 40 miles south of San Angelo.

    Defense attorneys had asked Walther to exclude the documents because the search warrant was based on fake domestic abuse reports.
    ***************************

    So Judge Walther has decieded to allow all evidence seized at the ranch to be used in the trial.

  374. I’ll chuckle til will past dinner time at the idea of Merril was it, up a tree without a paddle.

  375. Ive been reading Elizabeth Smarts testimony,, My God, Bless her heart!!
    Mitchell sounds just like Warren Jeffs!!

  376. Whats the difference between what happened to Smart and what has happened to the underage girls of Flds??? NOTHING!!

  377. Actually it was Raymond but it works with Merrill too.

  378. Well, other than the manner of going to their wedding, at least. I doubt many of them are awakened at knife point for their weddings, although it would seem that middle of the night weddings are common.

  379. Or they were taken across state lines to a town they knew nothing about and LEFT alone,,, which is like being abused, punished to conform to doing what they were told… Same kind of brainwashing

  380. Amarillo is a good 4hr drive from where I live, and from El Dorado its another 3hrs.. So I can’t imagine taking a young girl that FAR to teach her a lesson, leaving her alone in a big city like Amarillo.
    Talk about compassion??? NONE that I can See

  381. I’d like to know if anyone has any theories on why Texas only filed on Raymond over Janet Jeffs and not over Lenora Jeffs whom he married in June 2005. He had a son with Lenora so there would be DNA on that boy as well as on Janet’s daughter.

  382. Was Mitchell “kind and gentle” and “incapable of harm” like apologists say about Warren?

  383. ProudTexan, I’d guess it’s so they can have a second swing at him if they lose out on the first case. 😉

  384. “Was Mitchell “kind and gentle” and “incapable of harm” like apologists say about Warren?”

    I imagine that, like Warren, it all depends on who your talking to. I’m sure Mitchel claims he is kind and gentle and incapable of harm — after all, he was only doing what Gawd told him to, wasn’t he?

  385. What a great use of prayer time—a bunch of guys stand around in a circle and stomp their feet and damn things. It sounds like it would go better with beer than with fasting, though.

    I believe Warren has sexual identity issues, so the idea that “Warren had a tissy fit when he heard that his boyfriend spent the night with Seth” seems perfectly plausible to me.

  386. Lenora was 17. I think that is either legal or a lesser charge.

  387. TexasConnie,
    I missed the post about the pro-FLDS and the Seoul Korea article. What did they say about it that caused you to say it “has the pro-FLDS apologists up in arms today”?
    Thanks.

  388. Anon 7:58 – I have a Google Alert set for the term FLDS, and when I found the link to the Seoul Times article this morning, there were also links to one of the pro-FLDS sites (Hugh’s blog, I think) lamenting that the “smear tactics” of the Texas press had gone international.

  389. If he weren’t so pitifully mentally ill his antics would be amusing. Almost. Nearly. Sortakinda. Someone needs to get him on meds or get him picked up as a danger to self or others.

  390. Only the anti’s use smear tactics?

  391. Cement, apparently so. The pro’s, of course, use only Gawd’s honest truths expressed forcefully and never, ever, embellished.

    My favorite so far is the one by Bile saying that Carolyn wanted to grow a mushroom farm on her children’s backs.

  392. Lenora was 17. I think that is either legal or a lesser charge.

    _____________________________

    I guess she’s only listed in the bad acts because of the bigamy.

  393. janet had to have been 14 or 15 when she married ernest, ray’s brother, she had his daughter right around the time she was married off to ray. guess brother gets to skate and ray has to pay.

    since ray was kicked out and ernie was let back in, did ernie get janet back?

    actually i guess no one has her right now since she and her sisters are living with sally in the san antonio area.

  394. Leroy didn’t get his family back, and he is still in jail

  395. Yup,,Warren kicked leroy out, took his family and children and gave them to another man,, *(to teach him a lesson)HA!!
    Leroy is still in jail and warren is to, just different jails.

  396. leroy’s in jail? he, sally and wendell should all be locked up for letting the teenaged girls get married and have kids.

  397. Leroy is back in and living in Short Creek .. without his family

  398. poor leroy. must suck having warren for a brother. why doesn’t he just go to san antonio to his family. this boggles my mind.

  399. hey flds texas – do you know how many kids annette and warren have? this maryanne who was married to raymond is a new one on me.

  400. Proud Texan Marianne Jessop Jeffs is F. Merril and Barbara Jessop youngest daughter was married in a twin celestial marriage ceremony, on the YFZ Ranch, when Raymond Merril Jessop married Teresa Jeffs Jessop is Warren S. and Annette Jeffs daughter. Marianne has been placed with a relative Naomi Carlisle, she was 12 years old when wed to Warren.

  401. I’m rereading some of the dictations and wonder if someone can help me sort out the various locations. I know that R17 is the WSJ house at YFZ. Is there a reference that defines the other locations like R1, etc?

  402. lol, over on Bile’s site they are whinging on about child support and father’s rights and visitation. I posted this last night:

    I’d just like to point out that Merrill GOT his visitations until he moved to Texas. He didn’t pay support but his visitation rights were respected.

    It was deleted this morning. Mustn’t allow any truth as to Carolyn’s integrity to poison the tolerance and love flowing there. Also, apparently Cupcake is a sockpuppet of April Day. Who is April Day? I’ve seen the name a time or two but not often enough that I remember. Well, whatever, she’s clearly a liar since she stated without qualification that she believes in tolerance and then ate up the poisonous bile and outright lies spewed about Carolyn. The refrain of “this has nothing to do with the well being of her children” and claims she such a bad mother are what really irk me. Stated as facts, much like troll-duane’s flights of fancy, but never a lick of evidence. It’s really sad to see people delude themselves about their viciousness so completely.

    My observation for the day.

  403. Rebeckah,

    Cupcake, April Day, Deb Lee are all the same person.

  404. cajiM – there is a Maryanne Jeffs who was married to Raymond according to the prior bad acts document and it says she is the daughter of Warren and Annette Jeffs. You’re thinking of Merrianne Jessop who belongs to Babs and Merril. It’s very confusing.

  405. TexasConnie – I think R17 refers to the whole of the YFZ. Someone once said that R1 was Short Creek (I think). I’d have to reread them to remember what was what other than those 2.

  406. I think that someone else started posting as April Day who didn’t toe the party line over there. That’s when Deb Lee changed from April Day to Cupcake.

  407. TexasConnie, I’d help if I could, but I can’t put a number designation to anything except R17 either — and I thought that was the entire YFZ ranch! lol

  408. Sadie, do they mostly post on the Trib boards? If so, that’s why I barely know them. I hardly ever read the Trib comments.

  409. What is so funny about the Cupcake “handle” is Often Late on the Trib boards saddled Deb Lee with that because of all the “fluff and stuff” Deb Lee posts. Deb Lee complained all the time about OL calling her that, then she goes and uses it as her “name”.

  410. Ahhh, some was posting as April Day and not driveling on about fuzzy kittens, rainbows and tolerance? Naughty, naughty! lol

  411. Well I suppose it’s better than Bliss Ninny. So, how’s her cat? 😉

  412. Rebeckah, she posts as “Deb Lee” on the Trib boards, she posted here for a while as “April Day” (I’ll get to the story behind that handle in a moment) and on bile mudpucky’s site then changed to “Cupcake” on bile’s site.

    Now the story on the “April Day” handle, get ready to giggle…..back in March on the Trib boards she went on and on and on about how her family was treating her to a trip to Hawaii as a present to celebrate the national holiday of “April Day”. We all questioned her about this “national holiday” but she never answered what that was. The only “April Day” holiday I am aware of is “April Fools Day”, I think her “family” was trying to tell her something, but as usual it flew right over her head. She came back from her trip to Hawaii and started using the “April Day” handle.

  413. I see. No wonder Bile likes her. Dumb as a box of rocks seems to be about his speed with women.

  414. Don’t know anything about her cat but, she will tell everyone on the internet where she is taking her dogs for a walk and when. Then come back and tell everyone where she is taking her young daughter ice skating and when. And then she will cry and whine and call people vile names for pointing out that she is sharing way too much personal information on the internet.

  415. Yeah, it’s not her fault for mentioning it; it’s your fault for noticing it.

  416. I think the next handle she should use is “Cotton Candy” because apparently that is all that is in her head, LOL.

  417. Ooooh, but she just wuvs tolerance, fluffy bunnies and those poor, poor, persecuted FLDS! So of course she is persecuted to! All those meany-weany people who talk so harshly about violating young girls, breaking myriad laws, and actual free choice are just, well, meany-weany heads!

    Well, that’s my take on it. lol

    I think I’ll take the dogs for a walk now. 😉

  418. Wow, Cotton Candy, I LIKE it! Fits her to a T.

  419. Awh, Proud Texan I see now your question is about Raymond Jessop 2nd celestial wife, Mary Anne Jeffs, without her middle name it will be more tricky to ID her. These identities is even confusing amongst the FLDSers, I noticed that Warren tended to name the father, of girls/boys he mentioned, in his dictations to cut back on the confusion. This confusion in the Gentile ranks is exploited by the FLDS and one of their ploys to confuse and escape positive identifications.

  420. It has been a while, but I recall something in the dictations about LeRoy’s family being reassigned when he was ousted. warren made a comment in the dictations about how Leroy would take it when he heard that he had lost his family. It won’t be soon due to some big projects, but when I get a chance I will look for it.

  421. chemist, since you are busy I found the reference for you:

    https://texasflds.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/jessop-14-copy.pdf

    It is on page 24 of that pdf (page 439 of warren’s “notes”)

  422. Interesting tidbit from the San Angelo Standard-Times re Raymond Jessop pretrial hearing yesterday: “The attorneys told Walther that no plea bargain was in the works, and she advised them that the cutoff date for such an agreement will be 5 p.m. Oct. 14.”

    Wonder if Raymond will wake up and smell the coffee, see the handwriting on the wall (pick your metaphor) in time, or if FLDS customary arrogance will prevail even in the face of a mountain of evidence.

  423. I really hope it doesn’t. The more hard evidence that the public can view about the FLDS and their private and business practices the better off the world will be. Heck, Bile should be all for that — he only posts the “truth” you know.

    (I’m just curious where he gets some of his truth since it is on the level of Duane’s mind reading. You know, Carolyn wants this, Dan wants that, etc.) Speaking of Duane, he’s gone from being psychic to being Chicken Little and terribly, terribly worried about the poor, poor FLDS who are facing a bloodbath any moment. I really think we should alert the Red Cross so they can prepare for the impending mob violence.

    (not)

  424. Having been on jury duty for Federal court, I have to say that lots of defendants plea out the morning of the trial.

  425. I meant, “I really hope HE doesn’t (plea bargan).”

  426. “I also received a July 8th letter from LeRoy Jeffs. He is in Damoin (sic) Iowa and has not found a job yet. He expresses yearnings to repent. His true test will be when he finds out his former family has been sealed to others. We will see what the Lord does with this.” Dated August 19, 2005. Ft Collins, Colorado.

  427. I hope he doesn’t either. I want the evidence to be presented so they can’t weasel out of it and say he was innocent but plead guilty because of all the horrible persecution/prosecution.

  428. That was also the day of the motorcycle ride. He offhand discusses taking some man’s family and then goes for a motorcycle ride with his favorite wife.

  429. I don’t believe Raymond will plea out, he is going to be the sacrificial lamb, if he pleads guilty the rest of the flds men can’t appeal his verdict and try to get the Suppression Ruling thrown out. Raymond is going to be used by the rest of the penishood men to try and weasel out of their crimes. They are going to flush millions more of the flds members hard earned money down the toilet and still all will be convicted.

  430. Also, on page 26 of the document LadySadie referenced above (page 441 of Warren’s dictations) is Warren’s admission that 16-year-old Janet should not go to the hospital for her problems during 3 days of labor because it might cause legal problems for Raymond. Read Warren’s words below.

    All through the afternoon and evening I was in
    contact with R17, having the report as I called
    there that Janet Jessop, Raymond Jessop’s wife,
    was struggling. She had been in labor for three
    days. Sally Nielsen, Wendell’s wife, has been
    appointed of the Lord to be the midwife to help
    deliver the babies. She is a woman that the Lord
    has blessed with a natural gift to work with
    expecting mothers, but she has taken on a doubt
    and fear against herself. In my conversation in the
    afternoon with Brother Wendell, Sally had feared
    and turned to Doctor Lloyd Barlow to make the
    decisions. I detected that. The Lord showed me
    that this is one reason they were having such
    difficulty, because they didn’t twn to the Lord,
    they turned to the doctor. But the doctor had
    turned to the Lord, and that was a blessing. So all
    through Friday, I was yearning unto the Lord, even
    offering myself as the atonement for her to be
    blessed and deliver the child. I knew that the girl
    being sixteen years old, if she went to the hospital, they could put Raymond Jessop in jeapordy of prosecution as the government is looking for any
    reason to come again us there. I last called at 1 1 :30 p.m. and told them I was praying for them.
    The Lord assured me that she would bring forth a
    little girl, but He would give them experience.

  431. Thank you Betty and LadySadie: How heartless can a human being be? warren takes the cake for that.

  432. I also doubt that Raymond will plea out. I think it might be in his best interest because I have a feeling that he’ll get a very tough sentence if convicted. But like others here, I would really like to see/hear all the evidence.

    And for the record, I take no joy in any of this, despite what the trolls might think. Even when justice is served and these men receive punishment, it still means they leave a bunch suffering women and children in their wake. I wish there was more we could do to help them.

  433. Don’t EVEN try to tell me these people don’t know what kind of criminals and thugs they are, this crime family.

  434. i’m pretty sure he won’t plead out simply because then there is no appeal. he’ll just be sentenced and like others have said, no appeal means mudpuppy has to quit his yapping about how a “real” judge wouldn’t let this go on.

  435. Ya gotta love this quote from Warren too on the same page as the quote above. This kid screws his little sister and they don’t report it to anyone or apparently get this boy any counseling. Warren just orders that the boy be rebaptized. Like that is really going to stop this boy from raping his little sister again in the future? Read quote below:

    I put also on the record that Taylor Dockstader
    Harker, now the son of Stephen Harker, was sexual
    with Lydia Harker, the daughter of William
    Harker. And I called Stephen Harker and told him
    to have Taylor leave the Beryl farm and go stay
    with James Dockstader his natural father and work
    toward rebaptism. Benjamin Roundy, Roy Roundy’s son, must be rebaptized. His confession shows that he had sexual intercourse with his little sister.

  436. “And for the record, I take no joy in any of this, despite what the trolls might think. Even when justice is served and these men receive punishment, it still means they leave a bunch suffering women and children in their wake. I wish there was more we could do to help them.”

    I agree with you totally. I only hope that shining the light on all these “secrets” will finally set hearts and minds free to see what cesspool they’ve allowed their lives to become. Do they really want to be like mudslinging Medvecky? Or do they want to be a righteous people? You can’t do both.

  437. Anon, 11:51. Yes, I read that also. There were a number of possible rapes in only a few paragraphs. He gives it about as much importance as someone milking someone else’s cow.

  438. page 35 of document referenced above (page 450 of dictations) here comes Warren sneaking into Short Creek on August 24, 2005 to perform a BUNCH of celestial sealings. A group came down from Canada – were these underage girls trafficked across the border to wed, or were they of legal age. Anybody know? Can’t any of these men be charged with not reporting that a wanted felon was in their midst?

    First Boyd Wallace Roundy received Symantha Johnson, Elmer Johnson’s daughter, she has
    several children going into his family. I told Boyd
    that he would be used to drive his car and go pick
    up other men to come where I was. Next was sealed Joni Cooke to Wayne Allen Fischer. Next was sealed Pauline Barlow to Kevin James Barlow. By this time, the Canadians had arrived and Edith Palmer was sealed to Dalrnon Kendall Oler for time and eternity. Next Olivia Dawn Palmer was sealed to Benjamin Mark Palmer for time only as her husband was faithfid and had passed on. Allen Oler received Amy Williams. As the Canadians were sealed, I told them it was the will of the Lord that they go to Canada after they pick up their wives. I told everyone involved they were to stay in that building until after I left, then go to their homes and say nothing. Then after 8:OO p.m. in the evening the men could go gather up the ladies that were sealed to them. I told the Canadians that when they gathered up their ladies after 8:00 p.m. they leave the community immediately and go to Canada hopefully before our enemies learn about them. Our enemies up in Canada have told the border patrols, the police about anything I do as far as sealing$, and try to stop people from entering the country if they are involved with that. Winston and his followers are performing that persecution. I leave it in the Lord’s hands.
    Okay, getting back to the names
    Next was Nathan Carter Jessop received Maria
    Black. Joseph Barlow Johnson Jr. was his name,received Evelyn Jeffs, Hyrum Jeffs’ daughter. She is age twenty. Dell Jessop received Anna Sarah
    Dockstader. She was the youngest girl married
    that day, age sixteen. The Lord had told me to not
    have any parents there as they could not keep the
    Lord’s confidence. We were just to have the
    individuals come and stay there until I left.
    Benjamin Jessop received Merilyn Allred, Donald
    Barlow Allred’s daughter. Tom Cox received two
    ladies, the former wives of Truman Barlow. I first
    sat Alice Black and Ramona Steed down and told
    them, I said these words, “I have a message fiom
    the Lord for you two ladies. Truman Barlow, your
    former husband, has lost the Lord’s confidence
    and is not able to exalt you. And the Lord has
    revealed where you belong for time and eternity.
    Do you receive this message?” And they both
    said, “Yes.” I told them that when a man loses
    Priesthood, like Truman Barlow did.” but I told
    them for their piece of mind I would give them a
    release. And I first had Alice Black stand up. I
    held her right hand in the patriarchal grip and said, “Sister Alice Black, in the authority of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood, and by the keys and
    powers thereof, I release you fiom your sealing for
    time and all eternity with Truman Ianthus Barlow,
    in the name of the Father and of the Son, and in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.” Then I did similar
    with Ramona Steed, releasing her formerly. Then
    Tom Cox came in. Alice Black was sealed to
    Thomas Alma Cox, and then Ramona Steed was
    sealed for time and all eternity to Alma Thomas
    Cox. Was that twelve?

  439. I highly doubt Raymond will testify in his trial based on Warren’s comments below from August 25, 2005 dictations.

    I told him about these men that were being brought into trial for matrying so-called underage girls. The ones that were arrested I said, “The general council is answer the courts nothing. Do not testify in your own trial. If you testify, you
    could be found a traitor against God and Priesthood.” Lyle Jeffs in our trials told me the
    Attorney General prosecutor is now looking into
    charges against Lyle and Wallace where these sons
    of Ward Jeffs had lied and said they also abused
    the children. And the prosecutor wants to do a lie
    detector test on Blaine and Leslie and Wallace and
    Lyle.
    I told Lyle, if any of you say anything, you will
    easily be traitor against father and Priesthood.
    Answer them nothing. I told Lyle he could tell the
    brothers that. They are just trying to find me and
    get evidence against me and father to get a feeling
    of self-justification in their minds, talking of the wicked, to persecute us, our people. We should
    not empower our enemies to persecute us.

  440. It galls me how Warren refers to these child brides as “your ladies.” There is no punishment severe enough for him.

  441. I suppose “ladies” is more palatable to them than “concubines”.

  442. page 46 (461) August 30, 2005 dictation.

    This is Elissa Wall, Becky Musser and Teressa Blackmore’s mother Sharon Steed (Wall) being given to William E. (Timpson) Jessop. Sharon had been reassigned to Uncle Fred Jessop after her husband Lloyd Wall was exed. Then she was given to William E. (Timpson) Jessop after Uncle Fred died.
    We arrived at Castle Rock, Colorado around 2:30 p.m. in the afternoon. We were in the motel room by 3:00 p.m. I met the Bishop, William E. Jessop and three of Uncle r red’s ladies with Nathan Jessop present and Seth Jeffs present, and performed three sealings for time. First Karen Marie Steed Jessop, Woodruff Steed’s daughter, was sealed to William E. Jessop for time. Then Sharon Steed Jessop, Newel Steed’s daughter was married to William E. Jessop for time, then Olive Rosette Johnson Jessop was married to William E. Jessop for time.

  443. Same page as above. This is the order from Warren for Seth Jeffs to go deliver cash to a couple of people. This would have been the time Seth was arrested outside Pueblo, Colorado. Funny, Warren told Seth to take Nathaniel Allred with him to be a “guard”. I don’t think Warren was talking about a sexual playmate, as it turned out!!!

    I had Seth take a package of moneys with him. I
    put on record that he took one hundred thirty
    thousand with him. I told him to put ten thousand
    in the safe at his house for future directives. I told him to take five thousand out of his safe to give to Jonathan Allred in Albuquerque as he passed
    through. He took one hundred twenty thousand to
    R17. I told him to leaves by 3:00 a.m. in the
    morning and to take Nathanael Allred with him as
    a fellow guard. I gave him the mail I had read, and
    Seth Jeffs left the motel. I changed back into my
    disguise clothes and we left the motel by 4:20 p.m.
    And we left that area about 4:45 p.m. headed north
    and then east as the Lord told me to ride toward
    Missouri.

  444. I hope I didn’t bore you posting all of this. I just find it all so amazing!

  445. Anon at 12:12 – it says that the youngest wed that day was 16.

  446. so if Elissa Wall’s mother is Sharon Steed, daughter of Newel Steed, doesn’t that make her a niece to Babs? Poor child.

  447. The following discusses Warren’s having the YFZ land ownership and management switched to others so Carolyn can’t get it. At the bottom he talks about R1. Somebody asked earlier where R1 was. I think it is the Mancos, Colorado property because Warren mentions below R1 is in Colorado and David Allred originally purchased that property, too.

    I had Naomie rest while I was in contact with Brother Merril Jessop. I instructed Brother Merril to have David Allred and Stephen Harker sign the documents for the sale of R17 from David Allred to Stephen Harker, Isaac Jeffs, and Raymond Jessop. And then those two should head back to Short Creek. I gave instructions to brother Merril Jessop to transfer the monies into YFZ land corporation, and then by next week pay off the bank loan and get the deed to the land.

    In these documents for the sale of R17, David
    Allred resigned as an officer, are member of the .
    land corporation that holds our land of refuge in
    Texas where the temple is built. Also Merril
    Jessop and Joseph Steed resigned. Stephen Harker, Raymond Jessop, and Isaac Jeffs are the members and owners of the YFZ land according to the laws of the land. All this is in preparation to transfer the land into a trust. We had them change the nature of YFZ Land liability company from being managed by the members or owners, and now it is managed by an appointed manager. And I told the brethren to write into those articles the appointment of Merril Jessop as the manager, directing all affairs, financial, and all other affairs concerning YFZ land corporation.

    This was done because Merril Jessop is being
    sued by his former wife Carolyn Blackmore,
    Arthur Blackmore’s daughter and would try to
    take away that land of refbge if it was in Merril
    Jessop’s name. $0 the Lord in His wisdom arranged these other three brethren own the lands until it can be transferred into a religious trust.

    The Lord has warned me that myself and Brother Wendell should not have our names attached to that land yet. We will go the Lord’s pace. I thank the Lord for opening the way that this loan could be paid off, the land transferred out of David Allred’s name. I seek unto the Lord to guide me, show us what to do to get David Allred’s name off of the land we call R1 in Colorado. I know the Lord can open the way as He has for R17, in a miraculous way.

  448. Right Betty, the dictation does say that the youngest girl that day was 16. We don’t know how many of them being sealed that day were 16. But is it legal for 16 year old girls to travel across international borders and become plural wives in the US? Is 16 considered underage? That was my question.

  449. But is it legal for 16 year old girls to travel across international borders and become plural wives in the US?
    ==============================
    Pretty silly question Anonymous that you already know the answer to. No it’s not legal and it doesn’t matter if they are 16 or 76.

  450. i kinda think that marrying her isn’t the illegal thing since it wasn’t a legal marriage anyway, the illegal thing would be if she was taken across state lines to have sex.

  451. ali 10 – i think it would be perfectly legal if they were 76.

  452. Alin, you are a REALLY nasty person. But I’m sure you already know that.

  453. Well, not to be come a plural wife. 😉

  454. Nah currently not proudtexan. In Texas apparently they could be tried just purporting to be married.

  455. ProudTexan, is it then illegal because the girl is 16? I am just trying to figure out what the legal age is before it becomes a Mann Act violation. Does anyone know?

  456. i think the plural wife thing is a misnomer. they are calling it that to give it some religious significance. in reality it’s a guy with 1 wife and a bunch of girlfriends. as long as the girlfriends are all of age you’re going to be ok and probably be left alone. it becomes an issue when the man is having sex with underaged girls.

  457. Alin, you are a REALLY nasty person. But I’m sure you already know that.
    ========================
    I’m nasty while you are anonymous. /shrug ok.

  458. Mann Act – It also banned the interstate transport of females for “immoral purposes.

  459. alin 10 – i’m not anonymous and i think you’re a nasty person too.

  460. Here you go Anonymous. Supreme court conclusions may clarify it a bit.

    Mann Act case decisions by the United States Supreme Court
    Hoke v. United States, 227 U.S. 308 (1913). The Court held that Congress could not regulate prostitution per se, as that was strictly the province of the states. Congress could, however, regulate interstate travel for purposes of prostitution or “immoral purposes.”
    Athanasaw v. United States, 227 U.S. 326 (1913). The Court decided that the law was not limited strictly to prostitution, but to “debauchery” as well.
    Caminetti v. United States, 242 U.S. 470 (1917). The Court decided that the Mann Act applied not strictly to purposes of prostitution, but to other noncommercial consensual sexual liaisons. Thus consensual extramarital sex falls within the genre of “immoral sex.”
    Gebardi v. United States, 287 U.S. 112 (1932). The Court held that the statutory intent was not to punish a woman’s acquiescence; therefore, consent by the woman does not expose her to liability.
    Cleveland v. United States, 329 U.S. 14 (1946). The Court decided that a person can be prosecuted under the Mann Act even when married to the woman if the marriage is polygamous. Thus polygamous marriage was determined to be an “immoral purpose.”
    Bell v. United States, 349 U.S. 81 (1955). The Supreme Court decided that simultaneous transportation of two women across state lines constituted only one violation of the Mann Act, not two violations.

  461. Anon asked “But is it legal for 16 year old girls to travel across international borders and become plural wives in the US? Is 16 considered underage? That was my question.”

    No, it’s not legal. It’s not legal to go from a state where 16 is under the age of consent into a state where it is just for the purpose of sex. Also, I think the FLDS transported women without passports, as the Canadian government escorted some of the American wives from bountiful back over the American border because the did not have passports or residency visas. Even with a legal marriage a residency visa is not assumed.

  462. Does anyone know which Jeffs Charlene Wall married?

  463. alin 10 – i’m not anonymous and i think you’re a nasty person too.
    =====================================================
    Since you and I have always has an amicable relationship, though differing opinions, I don’t share your assessment of me atm towards you.

  464. Amendments to the Mann Act state that it has to be something which is a criminal offense. It was successfully used against Tony Alamo.

  465. Alin 10 – it’s just that you get nasty at times. you are almost always in opposition to all the other posters on this board (except duane when he pokes his head in) and when people disagree you can be nasty. i’m not saying that disagreeing is a bad thing, its just that over here there is usually lots of disagreement with your posts.

  466. Any clue who Loretta Jessop’s parents are or husband? She’s got a on who was born 10/25/2006 named mahonra

  467. Federal law says it is a crime to transport a minor (under 18) in interstate or foreign commerce with the intent of engaging in criminal sexual acts. This neatly says that the age of consent at the state in which they engage in the criminal behavior is the determinant. That is currently 17 in Texas, 18 in Arizona and 18 in Utah. It is 16 throughout Canada and anywhere between 12 and 18 in Mexico.

    In addition, there is also a Federal statute that prohibits using the mail, telephone or the internet to persuade or entice a minor (under 18) to be involved in a criminal sexual act. This applies even where both parties live in a state in which their contact is legal but the computer server hosting their ‘chats’ is located in a state with a higher age of consent.

  468. There is also the refuge at Westcliffe, CO, and Idaho.

    The Bishop’s List only used the designation R-17; all the rest of the locations were by name: Short Creek, Hildale, Colorado City. (They seem to have been compiled by the families themselves, not by the Bishop.)

    But then there were Faithann Johnson and her daughter, listed as in a “house of hiding,” and Alice Marie Jessop, listed as “hiding.” And those listed as “elsewhere.” And those who were spiritually married to men on this list, but who aren’t listed.

    I can’t remember the other “Refuge” designations or what they stood for, if I ever even figured that out.

  469. well faithann johnson ended up at the yfz cuz she’s listed with daughter on the order for severance.

  470. I’ve seen R1 and R23 mentioned a number of different times as well as R17 (YFZ). Earlier commenter indicated that R1 was in Colorado.

  471. R for refuge? yfz= refuge #17? Just trying to figure out the ‘r’. I missed it if it was discussed earlier or elsewhere. Or is it just a letter?

  472. Perhaps Faithann repented of her imprudent decision to sew a tiny band of lace on her holy knickers and was allowed back in.

  473. R for refuge.

  474. ProudTexan,
    There is a photo of a “Happy 1st Anniversary” for Warren and Loretta dated Jan 25, 2005. The photo was used as court evidence and is marked Petitioners Exhibit 3. Maybe this is the Loretta you mentioned who has a son born 10/25/2006. The timing works. Loretta was one of Warren’s underage child brides.

  475. A home in Westcliffe was one of the houses of hiding according to Wendell Musser who was the caretaker for some of Warren’s wives living there.

    I would not consider the Westcliffe properties to be considered a Refuge. IMO a refuge was more like acreage where they could build a private compound.

    The properties around the Westcliffe area in Custer and Fremont Counties are just homes in regular subdivisions instead of private acreage.

    I think there was also a house of hiding in the Ft. Collins area.

    I still think that the Mancos acreage is R1 bought by David Allred.

  476. I also think that R23 is the compound in Pringle.

  477. So I now have a WordPress name to make this Alin person happy. I am still annonymous, as is Alin, but for some reason Alin thinks my having a “handle” makes a difference. Whatever.

    In case anyone is interested, my “handle” refers to the fact that my wife is not my sister, cousin, aunt, mother or daughter. notscamd

  478. So thank you greetingsnewyork for the good info on the Mann Act. So it sounds like these “celestial sealings” Warren did in Short Creek on August 24, 2005 were violations of the Mann Act for those girls 16 and 17 years old.

    His dictations just say “Short Creek” so we don’t know if it was in Utah or Arizona. But, if both states have 18 as the minimum age, it would still be a Mann Act violation if these girls were not 18. Especially if they came from Canada, since they would most definitely have to cross several US state borders to get to Short Creek.

  479. Notscamd, cute name.

    The dictations and other evidence clearly show a pattern of underage ‘marriages’ in places ranging from the Caliente Motel in Nevada to Short Creek to Texas, and involving Canadian nationals as well as home-grown brides. And it matters not a whit if the girls were procured in Hildale and sent to live in Colorado City or vice-versa. It’s still a state border, one which polygamists have exploited to evade law enforcement for a century.

    The question is whether the Federal government wants to spend its resources here. My guess is that the Texas trials will embarrass them into it, and do the heavy lifting for them.

  480. Notscamd, I would love to see a complete list of refuges, houses of hiding, etc., along with whatever other supporting information you have found. The only one of those Colorado communities I know is Fort Collins, and it seems awfully populous for a house of hiding, but perhaps there’s safety in being obvious.

  481. I thought the “R” stood for Rural? YFZ is on a road in rural area, that’s why I figured it was called R17

  482. DD–here, the Deseret News says it stands for Refuge:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700244964/FLDS-case-may-hinge-on-diaries-dictations.html

  483. Thanks Greetings 🙂 So houses of hiding are in different refuges,, and isn’t it strange that ONLY women and children are sent to houses of hiding for punishment..
    I guess the boys are just excommunicated.

  484. ProudTexan,
    There is a photo of a “Happy 1st Anniversary” for Warren and Loretta dated Jan 25, 2005. The photo was used as court evidence and is marked Petitioners Exhibit 3. Maybe this is the Loretta you mentioned who has a son born 10/25/2006. The timing works. Loretta was one of Warren’s underage child brides.

    _________________________________________

    Could be, but if its the child I’m thinking of, she was Loretta Jane Barlow, Merril’s granddaughter.

  485. Greetings,
    This is what I have come up with so far:

    Wendell Nielsen had a rental house in Ft. Collins where some of his family stayed. Warren told one of his followers to take his family and go stay in that house. The person’s name is in that same section of dictation listed earlier this morning, but I can’t remember who it was right now.

    Some of Fred Jessop’s wives were living in Castle Rock, about 20 miles south of Denver. 3 of those wives are listed above (who were later sealed to William E. Jessop, the bishop of Short Creek.)

    Nathaniel Allred had a house somewhere in Colorado – I can’t remember right now – maybe it was Colorado Springs.

    Seth had a place near Longmont, I’ve been told.

    Warren referenced houses in Colorado Springs.

    There are numerous houses (8 I think) in the Wetmore/Westcliffe /Penrose area.

    I have been told they own property in Walsenberg.

    Then there is the land in Mancos.

    Much of this is in his dictations, but it’s been a while since I read them. I need to print them out and go back through them before I can give you absolute facts.

    Warren refers to “places of refuge” in his dictations, so I am pretty sure that the “R” does stand for “Refuge”.

  486. Fred Jessop was at YFZ for awhile,, guess Warren sent him to Colorado to die.
    Lyle Jeffs is now bishop of Short Creek.

  487. Different Loretta. Warren’s child bride, Loretta, is not the Loretta who is the mother of Mahonri

  488. ProudTexan said

    Does anyone know which Jeffs Charlene Wall married?

    Lyle Jeffs

    December 7, 2005

  489. did warren’s child bride loretta have a child?

  490. which jeffs was dianabel barlow married to?

    is lyle jeffs warren’s full brother or a half one?

  491. Yes Loretta had a baby. I think Lyle and Leroy are both Warren’s real brothers.

  492. what about isaac, nephi and seth?

  493. Seth is Warren’s brother, there are several nephi’s in the group, nephi barlow, nephi jeffs, who could be nephi barlow jeffs, who the hell knows, they suck up different names , aliases all the time.

  494. yeah, that’s the biggest problem is they change surnames like most people change underwear

  495. Yeah, when you’re whole family shares only 3-4 surnames, and numerous identical middle names, it’s easy to get cornfused! Just one big incestuous glob of DNA floating through the communities. Today I am a Barlow, tomorrow a Jeffs,next week I’ll be a Jessop! BIG flow chart needed to keep track!

  496. Kind of like DOWAYNE Jessop is now DOWAYNE Allred

  497. And lets not forget the Steed line. I read on Wikipedia that Warren was born in San Fran,but it doesn’t detail how he got to SLC, then the crick, it’s mostly about how he took over, and ran the place into it’s criminal downfall. Did they [his family] live there then or were they just passing through? There waa no mention of SF on Rulons Wikipedia page, I was curious.

  498. Nephi Jeffs is warren’s brother and was at warren’s trial. When warren said he was not the prophet.., Nephi wwas prompt to tell warren that he was still the prophet, etc.

  499. I found an FLDS “Marriage Record” identifying exactly who the Loretta is who became Warren’s child bride.

    Her name is Loretta Jane Barlow.
    Her father is Rulon Theodore Barlow.
    Her mother is Rebecca Jessop Barlow.
    She and Warren were “married” on Jan 26, 2004 at the home of Wendell Nielson in Hildale, Utah.
    The “ceremony” was conducted by LeRoy S. Jeffs.

  500. Another one of Warren’s child brides is Brenda Lei Fischer.

    Her father is Wayne Alan Fischer. He was the man arrested in Salida, Colorado after his truck went off the road in Monarch Pass and a little girl riding in the back camper shell was killed. They had TONS of women and children riding in the cab and many children riding in the back. The children were not wearing seat belts.

    Her mother is Nancy Jessop Fischer.
    She was “sealed” to Warren on April 16, 2005 at Warren’s home at the YFZ by Wendell Nielsen.

  501. Then of course there is the child bride Merrianne Jessop, daughter of Fredrick Merril Jessop and Barbara Steed Jessop.

    Merrianne was “sealed” to Warren on July 27, 2006 at Warren’s home at the YFZ by Merril.

  502. Loretta was 14.
    Brenda was 12.
    Merrianne was 12.

  503. Brenda Lei Fischer is Merril Jessop’s grand daughter.

    Her mother, Nancy Jessop Fisher is the daughter of Merril and his wife Foneta Marie Cook.

  504. I don’t suppose Brenda was one of the 13 year old mothers? I’m pretty sure I remember reading about at least one 13 year old mother of Jeffs’ child. Boy do I hope that man rots in jail for a long, long time. (Keep the feeding tube in folks! No martyrs for THIS group.)

  505. One would think that Utah would file charges against the whole fardling criminal bunch of them, parents and all.

  506. i don’t list any kids for brenda and warren, but at 12 when they were married and him being on the run, i’m not really surprised.

    what is surprising is that she’s an only child. that’s really shocking in this group with 14 and 15 children per wife. maybe nancy didn’t enjoy being one of 14.

  507. Maybe she was smart enough to be out of town a lot.

  508. Was Brenda the little almost childish looking short lady that was filmed at the ranch with the other ladies?

  509. no, i think brenda was kept with the children at the coliseum. she would have only been 16 at the time of the raid.

  510. i don’t know for sure, but if i was to guess, i’d say she probably went to midland with teresa jeffs.

  511. OK, i was trying to figure out who went with whom and using the order of severance and the bishop’s lists and still have the following questions:

    who are the spouses of these

    1. bianabel barlow – 5 kids with last name jeffs
    2. dora mae barlow – 6 kids with last names allred and/or barlow
    3. emily gail crossfield blackmore – 1 child a blackmore
    4. esther barlow – 4 kids one named jeffs and the others jessop
    5. evelyn allred – 1 son named allred
    6. grace harker jeffs – 4 kids last named jeffs
    7. ilene jeffs – 3 kids last named rohbock
    8. karen johnson – 7 kids last named johnson
    9. leona steed – 5 kids last named johnson
    10. linda jeffs musser – 1 son named musser
    11. linda keate – 2 kids last named keate
    12. loretta jessop – 1 son named jeffs
    13. lydia ann johnson – 2 kids named johnson
    14. mable a. johnson – 1 son named jeffs
    15. martha barlow – 4 kids named barlow
    16. namcy barlow – 4 kids named barlow
    17. nancy jane black dockstader – 3 kids named dockstader
    18. neola stubbs jessop – 3 girls named jessop
    19. patricia ann barlow – 2 daughters named barlow
    20. pauline barlow jeffs – 6 kids named jeffs
    21. rebecca steed – 10 kids named steed
    22. sandra jeffs – daughter named nielsen
    23. sandra steed jeffs = son named jeffs
    24. sarah steed – 6 kids named steed

    and no, i have no reason for needing to know, other than just trying to figure out who belongs with whom.

  512. WOW what a long list. Easy answer – Deadbeat Dads????

    OK – seriously, does anyone really know? I bet some of those reassignments were so sloppy that even THEY cant keep it straight.

    Perhaps the evidence will unravel this.

  513. i’m guessing that most are somehow involved with warren jeffs family or merril jessop’s family since those are the bishop’s lists that weren’t released.

  514. FLDS Texas answered that Charlene Wall Jeffs was married to Lyle Jeffs in 2005, but that has to be a reassignment since the 2 kids were born in 1998 and 2000.

  515. Texas Twist, bet she knows. For some reason, she’s among the missing.

  516. Awww, I just read the top 10 blowhards on the internet http://tech.msn.com/products/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=21770838&GT1=40000 and neither Hugh nor Bile made the list. Do you suppose they know how unimportant they are to the world?

    😆

  517. ProudTexan, what is the order of severence?

  518. Never mind ProudTexan, I figured it out.

  519. Notscamd, that information about Colorado houses is a little troubling.

    Short Creek is on the back side of nowhere, and El Dorado, Texas and Bonners Ferry, Idaho aren’t much closer to civilization. But the Front Range is one long suburb, containing nearly all of Colorado’s five million inhabitants. Were the FLDS “hiding in plain sight” in Colorado?

  520. Rebeckah said;
    “Awww, I just read the top 10 blowhards on the internet and neither Hugh nor Bile made the list. Do you suppose they know how unimportant they are to the world?”

    I cannot believe they didn’t make it. They most certainly must be disappointed, since they both seem to believe they are at the center of the universe.

  521. Competition is tough. The center of the universe seems to be quite large these days. 🙂

  522. Well, I’m sure they have a conspiracy theory to cover the omission. It isn’t that they are emminently forgettable nutjobs, people are just afraid to acknowledge their superior ideas — that sort of thing. I imagine delusions can be very comforting. I’m working of one with a deserted island and someone tall, dark, handsome, totally devoted to me, and with a sexy accent. 😉

  523. My mother was very good at denial and totally comfortable with expressing opposite instructions and feelings simultaneously. It annoyed me as a kid, but as an adult I was mostly jealous.

  524. SALT LAKE CITY — Two brothers who attacked their grandmother while she was taking a shower and then urinated on her were sentenced to one year in jail, followed by a year of probation.

    Michael and Christopher Hansen both gave tearful apologies to their grandmother and the court for what they did on July 2.

    Defense attorney Chad Stur, who represented Michael Hansen, asked that the judge put the two on probation since they’ve already been in jail 95 days.

    He said the two young men were upset, confused and drunk at the time of the attack because their mother had just died of a drug overdose.
    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8185685

    this is a totally SICK story,, aren’t there “hansens” in Flds?

  525. The court system in Utah is broken!!!! Something needs to be done!

  526. I don’t get the connection between mom dying of a drug overdose and beating up grandma. Must be a Utard thang.

  527. I confess, I’m rather amazed that anyone could find a connection too. I hope Grandma is safe from them in the future.

  528. It’s Grandma’s fault. She should have been a better enabler and rescued Mom.

  529. Of course. Blame the victim.

  530. I would think that to make a Top Ten Blowhards list you would need readers—many thousands of readers. And may I point out that TexasFLDS has nearly 150,000 hits. However, there is no blowhard behind the curtain, so it wouldn’t qualify.

  531. Also, as I tried to tell the pharisee, if your topic is fairly narrow (like polygyny, FLDS, etc.) then it isn’t how many hits you get, it’s how high your blog comes up on a search of those keywords. It’s whether or not someone interested in that topic finds your blog rather than a bunch of others. It’s RELEVANCE to your target audience that counts. The top ten blowhards are talking about topics of general interest to most people.

  532. LOL! Get out that justification list for polygamy, who ever is keeping it, MA just came up with another one.

    The Federal Reserve creates debt so polygamy should be legal.

  533. Hmmmm. Sounds like she’s been talking to Pliggy again. America started going all to hell in a hand basket when we let women vote and gave up the gold standard! LOL! The Rockefellers are trying to buy the world and turn it over to the Jews! Be afraid!

  534. BTW

    Texas allows the evidence, and now that the world will see it all, the cockroaches have scurried.

    And I’ve only heard one or two “APPEAL” burps.

    Looks like Warren went from making trouble to getting served TOAST.

    Stick a fork in him. He’s DONE!

  535. Rebeckah, “MA just came up with another one….
    The Federal Reserve creates debt so polygamy should be legal.”

    Who is MA?

  536. Massachusettes Matriarch or MA-M on Brooke’s Blog.

  537. this is just more evidence for me that belief in polygyny is highly associated with thought disorders

  538. Ma Matriarch

    As I remember a Wiccan from Boston area? Did I remember that correctly?

  539. The Federal Reserve IS a particularly nasty joke, imho, but it doesn’t have anything to do with polygamy. 😉

  540. Somewhere on the East Coast, I believe Stamp. And she’s certainly a Bliss Ninny.

    Oh, and she manifested polygamous Mormons with her power of attraction. Now if she could just “attract” a brain she’d be doing well. 🙂

  541. Everything is horrible, they are all so down trodden and it’s someone else’s fault. Probably either the Government or the Catholic Church.

  542. Actually Betty I’m impressed how happy those children seem every time I see a picture of them. Only a few times have I seen a sad child but there usually is a compelling reason why.

  543. Actually, Alin, I’m impressed how deliberately blind people can be. The only time I see it here someone has a desire to subjugate women and children and deny them any human dignity.

  544. I guess in alinusara’s family, they take pictures of their kids when they’re frowning or throwing fits or something. MOST families take pics of their kids when they’re smiling and happy 🙂 Sometimes the kids get bribed with candy or something; but rare is the famly photo album filled with frowning faces.

  545. I’ve seen plenty of pictures of Warren lately, he always looks stressed out and never happy.

    He looks pretty goofy in those prison clothes too. And that pic of him on Brookes blog header, his head looks like its about to explode.

    Of course, he could have had a nice life, but instead chose a different path for himself.

    Who is to blame?

  546. Strange how when a MAN decides to play GOD with many people’s lives they usually end up in prison. Like Jim Baker, remember him? He had the God head delusion to, and went to jail for several years…
    Guess now it’s time for Lyle Jeffs to play GOD with members lives for awhile.

  547. I give Lyle a year before the crap hits the fan on him.

  548. Well I guess Piccyournose decided to start name calling.. Did anyone else read the filings in brooke adams blog today by piccaretta?

    The poor attorney is now frustrated, calling dan fischer and sam brower, thieves, cut throats and scum bags.

  549. Alin wrote “Actually Betty I’m impressed how happy those children seem every time I see a picture of them”

    Actually, I was talking about MAM’s family, ALin. Ever see a picture of them? Nope. Me, either.

  550. Strange how Alinusara plays apologist even when he/she doesn’t even read carefully enough to know what the topic is. LOL.

  551. /shrug. Hi Anonymous.

  552. /shrug. Hi troll Alin.

  553. Today’s Eldorado Success reports that YFZ has changed its name again and refiled for tax exemption, although apparently too late to qualify. On Dec. 31, 2008 YFZ Land, LLC was transferred to Texan Heritage Trust. New entity is Texas Stake of Zion Trust — but it also appears to have been created on Dec. 31, 2008. New trust has same trustees as old trust.

    I feel like I’m standing on a busy New York street … “Watch my hands very closely. Follow the shell. Now, don’t blink. Where is the shell?”

  554. Which begs a question asked awhile back…how can they apply for tax exempt while owing $$$$$$$$ in back taxed and liens? Does that wipe out the due bills?

  555. i guess their motto is if you don’t succeed at first to do something illegal, keep trying til you get it right.

  556. are they trying to make it tax exempt as a religious trust Texas Connie?

  557. dd, as far as I can tell, yes. Why they needed another entity, I don’t know, especially since the trustees are the same. Perhaps they structured it differently. But the word “stake” definitely means they view it as a religious entity.

  558. Hmmmm this is old news and the docs may well be on this site.

    The new TRUST is Texas Heritage Trust and the NEW CHURCH is HOLY UNITED ORDER OF TEXAS.

    AKA in the real world as H.O.O.T.

    The HOOTess are up to no good. I suppose HOOT money spends as well as FLDS money.

  559. I’m surprised the Temple and the Ranch for that matter arent taped off as a crime scene, much less allowed to keep running as a Cult sex commune.

  560. Texas Stake of Zion trust is certainly a “new” name. Texas Connie, they were never registered as a religious or tax exempt trust till now, that’s why they are franticly registering,,,the state denied them, and I have no way of knowing why.

  561. Stamp, this is new — just filed in Schleicher County last week according to the Eldorado newspaper. (I’m a subscriber.) The article didn’t say anything about a new church name. Just that the land ownership had been transferred to a new trust as of last week. (Personally, I love the name HOOT … as in I don’t give a hoot what they call it, it’s still a mob organization. LOL) Although the transfer is recent, the trust was created at the same time as the Texan Heritage Trust. Here’s a quote from the newspaper:

    “Documents were filed last week in the Schleicher County Clerk’s office which reveal the creation of a new trust, this one named Texas Stake of Zion, and the transfer of ownership of the YFZ Ranch into that trust.

    “A similar trust, named Texan Heritage Trust, was created on Dec. 31, 2008, when the assets of YFZ Land, LLC, commonly known as the YFZ Ranch, were transferred into that trust.

    “Interestingly, the document creating the Texas Stake of Zion trust, also appear [sic] to have been signed on Dec. 31, 2008.”

    Here’s a nice tidbit. The new application for tax exemption (filed under the new name, Texas Stake of Zion trust) was filed by Ellen Grace Young, who “is reportedly married to Frederick Merril Jessop.”

    Interesting indeed.

  562. DD, the reason the previous filing for exemption was denied is that the YFZ property did not meet the statutory definition — they are not using any part of the land, specifically the temple, as a place of regular worship. Don’t know if there were additional reasons given, but I do remember that one.

  563. This must be a do-over TC.

    See this thread, and both the Texas Trust AND the HOOT docs were recorded with the county and posted here on texasflds.

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/non-prophet-part-deux/#comment-1459

    Why the do-over? Perhaps a change of verbiage. Personally, I would have lost the HOOT reference. Lets find out.

  564. Last week…as in right after the child support case????

  565. Awh,, I remember Ellen Grace Young,, She is the woman from Las Vegas who hadn’t seen her children in 3yrs… BITCH!

  566. People like Ruth Cooke are trying just to be able to see her children and has been refused, and Ellen Grace Young sends her children off from Las Vegas to Texas and doesn’t see , call, or send them one DAMN card in 3 yrs.

  567. Agreed, Stamp. Must be a do-over trust. Attempt to get it right legally after the fact?

    Anon 6:10 – hmm, hadn’t thought of that. Paper didn’t specify date of filing, just “last week” — and timing is certainly very close to child support case.

    DD — I guess Ellen Grace Young must have been “keeping sweet” in other ways? (said tongue in cheek)

  568. I havent found the new trust and or church doc yet.

    Got linky?

  569. Does the Eldorado success give a link to the new trust or church docs?

  570. The old new Church:

    “Texan Heritage is to assist the living of the “Holy United Order”. It exists to preserve and advance the religious doctrines and goals of the “United Order of Texas”, a common law trust (hereinafter referred to as the “Church”), having its principal office in Eldorado, Texas. . . . The doctrines and laws of the Holy United Order are found in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Holy Bible; and are the guiding tenets by which the trustees of Texan Heritage shall act.”

    =======

    Holy United Order Of Texas

    HUOOT

    Havent seen anyting different. This was recorded for Time and Eternity or until they discovered the typos.

  571. Stamp, no link. Sorry. Eldorado Success is delivered by email w/ PDF attached.

  572. Not sure where the original trust document would be filed – Secretary of State?

    From what Stamp has posted, it sounds like this is meant to replace original UEP trust, moving all power structure to Texas. But if they didn’t accomplish that w/ Texan Heritage, remains to be seen how new trust is different.

  573. They file the papers with the City Clerk in El Dorado first, who then sends them to the state.

  574. I’ll see what all I can come up with re the Texas Trust. Here is the document filed in Schleicher County on December 31, 2008

    http://www.thehopeorg.org/FLDS_new_Trust_of_Texan_Heritage.pdf

  575. Correction to above post. That trust document is dated Dec. 31, 2008 but was not filed with the county clerk until April 23, 2009.

  576. sorry, I meant the county clerk’s office, not city

  577. Here is the deed of trust signed by Merril Jessop on November 9, 2008 deeding the YFZ to John Wayman. This document was filed with the Schleicher County clerk April 21, 2009, 2 days before the document linked above was filed with the county.

    http://www.thehopeorg.org/YFZRanch_and_JohnCWayman_deed_of_trust_11-9-2008.pdf

  578. Here is an early draft of the United Order Trust of Texas.

    http://www.thehopeorg.org/DRAFT-UnitedOrderTrustOfTexas.pdf

  579. Here is a revised (10-2-2006) draft of the document above. Note the questions and comments on page 10 at the bottom of this draft. They are wondering about moving items from Short Creek to R1. UEP items!!!!

    http://www.thehopeorg.org/UnitedOrderTrustOfTexas.pdf

  580. Without looking at all those again, I think they are the ones at my link above, which were I belcive the same ones recorded 6 months ago in April.

    Did the Success not say new docs were recorded?

    Did they take the HOOT out of the HOOTERS?

  581. so if the yfz was already transferred to HOOT, wouldn’t it be HOOT that had to transfer it to the new entity and not the same ones who transferred it into HOOT?

    I’m confused.

  582. An interesting thing about Merril signing the Deed of Trust for the YFZ Land, LLC.

    He must have signed it in Hildele because the notary has a Hildale, Utah seal. Why would Merril have it notarized in Utah?

    The YFZ Land, LLC is a Texas company and John Wayman’s address is in Nevada. Nothing about Utah for either of these things.

    And the Notary is non other than Boyd Knudson.

    Remember who Boyd Knudson is? He is the Registered Agent in the state of Utah for both of the FLDS corporations. The Corporation of the President of the FLDS and the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the FLDS.

    Doesn’t this seem strange that he was the notary for this transaction that didn’t even legally involve Utah?

  583. I agree with your logic, ProudTexan. I am confused about that too.

  584. Maybe the new name is Day Inside Day Latter Saints.

    DIDLS

    So yes the HOOTers would have to sign over to the DIDLS.

  585. but wouldn’t it be illegal to transfer the same property to 2 different entities at the same time? sounds like fraud to me.

  586. SOUNDS like? They run their operation like Laurel and Hardy. I really wont be surprised to see it all come apart on them, not with 50 legal issues on their plate and more coming down the pipe.

    I really think their attorneys have done them a disservice. They are screwed and tattooed.

  587. i’m not sure where the young comes from in ellen grace’s name, but her maiden name is steed and the father of her children is nephi barlow and we know she was married to merril at some point in time, but who was the one named young? and why does she continue to carry that name?

    oh well, is she now living at the ranch getting to know the children she abandoned? aside from the 2 girls, she has 2 small boys born in 2001 and 2003.

  588. Proud, she must be living at the ranch–Ellen Grace Young is the one who filed the tax exemption documents last week in Eldorado (Schleicher County seat). I don’t know where the Young comes from if her maiden name was Steed. Was she reassigned to Merril from someone else and kept that name? Or is there another Ellen Grace?

  589. This sounds fishy. I’ll see if I can get the documents.

  590. does anyone have the documents that cps filed to regain custody of her 2 daughters. i can’t find them, but they should have her maiden name and such on them.

  591. just found what i was looking for. her father is newel steed, making her a 1/2 sister to babs. her mother was a young, so that makes me lean toward some kind of connection with babs’ mother who is also a young. she’s too dang closely related to babs for my comfort.

  592. Nice work, ProudTexan. Didn’t know of her connection to Babs. That would explain her presence at YFZ as one of the favored followers.

  593. Here’s an article saying she has to keep the kids away from Merril and Barbara and the YFZ Ranch.

    http://thehopeorg.org/raid_SAST_judge_orders_Warrens_child_bride_removed_from_Barbara_and_Merril_Jessops_care.html

  594. Thanks for the link, Anon. Wonder if EGYoung is abiding by the order to keep the kids away from YFZ ranch?

  595. i’m betting she’s not. maybe she needs to be reported to the court for disobeying a court order. she could probably be held in contempt or something.

  596. One Response to “WSJ Dictations May 2007”

    3rd one over

    “In the Federal case in Salt Lake City. the judge put off Bruce Wisan for 30 days to not be able to
    look at my private records yet. If he gets hold of them, they will trace the Church assets. tithing
    and consecration use. and all the other activities I was involved with.”

    FLDS TEXAS said this on October 7, 2009 at 7:47 PM

  597. Ellen Grace Young Steed
    Was married to Nephi Steed Barlow
    Mother Alice LaRee Young Steed Father Newell Steed

  598. That’s another thing that bothers me about polygamy. The lack of a father’s last name. How sad to know that the man who fathered you will not claim you in public because it might get him in trouble. What a way to feel loved and wanted!

  599. That’s obviously the fault of society for making them practice it in secret.

  600. Anon, society is not to blame for those who choose to live an illegal lifestyle that is inherently abusive toward women and children.

  601. TexasConnie, I believe anon was being sarcastic.

    -the other anon

  602. Yeah, I was being sarcastic. I have had some computer problems due to a very stubborn Trojan virus and have not yet fixed all my profiles. Betty.

  603. I agree, we should stop persecuting (nope, it’s not “prosecution”) drug dealers, murderers, kidnappers, and so forth — I’m sure God told them to break the law too. While we’re at it, those Native Americans should be allowed to kill a few bald eagles too.

  604. Oh indeed its societys fault.

    After all we feed them, float their IRS bills and keep them like pets in Utah.

    So hey, we gave them the keys to the car, look at them go!

    Dang they didnt have to crash though!

  605. Native Americans should be allowed to kill bald eagles.

  606. I just adopted a cat — don’t need another pet, especially a plyg. 🙂 (Said cat is still hiding in the fireplace flue. Has not yet succumbed to my charm, but does come down during the night to scarf up the food I leave out for him. Sneaky devil.)

  607. Should they? Can the bald eagle population handle some thinning out?

    (As long as it won’t kill them all off, I have no objections.)

  608. TBM, you bring up a more serious native American Indian practice that is in need of serious redress.
    I would be in favor of allowing native indians taking of bald eagles under controlled conditions.

  609. Computer immorality again! LOL!

  610. Ellen Grace Young sends her children off from Las Vegas to Texas and doesn’t see , call, or send them one DAMN card in 3 yrs.
    ==================================================
    Yah! She’s obviously unfit. You should take her children away from her and have them live elsewhere. Oh wait.

  611. alinusara, you’re a .

  612. Rebeckah, the bald eagle was removed from the endangered list in 2007.

    cajIM, you’re correct. The BIA (Boss Indians Around) group doesn’t do a good job of providing eagles to the tribes.

  613. You should AT LEAST find out if the children are safe with the people they are with and that the parents/gaurdians have given permission. Isn’t child abandonment a crime?

  614. You should AT LEAST find out if the children are safe with the people they are with and that the parents/gaurdians have given permission. Isn’t child abandonment a crime?
    ========================================================
    Aye child abandoment is a crime. However, if the parents/guardians gave permission it’s not abandonment. If the parents/guardians didn’t give permission its called kidnapping again making the term abandoment irrelevent.

  615. I can picture a parent leaving a child with the grandparents for a short time and then never coming back. That would be abandonment without being kidnapping.

  616. Alin doesn’t have your cognitive skills Betty. Don’t expect too much from him/her/it/them. Trolling is about all they’re up for.

  617. Blues, I didn’t know that. I just assumed that Bald Eagles were still on the endangered list. I agree, then, that provisions should be made to allow those native americans who want to practice their religion to do so, even if it involves hunting a certain number of bald eagles.

  618. A few answers to some questions.

    The Loretta Jessop Jeffs who has the child Mahroni is a daughter of Merril Jessop and either his wife Faunita or Ruth. She was the first of Merril’s daughters to marry Rulon Jeffs. Married him in 1990 or 1991. My information says she refused to marry WSJ after Rulon’s death and married his brother Nephi Jeffs.

    Not the WSJ child bride Loretta who, as stated earlier, is Merril’s granddaughter and is Loretta Jane Barlow, daughter of Merril and Ruth’s daughter Rebecca who married Rulon Barlow.

    I have no information that definitively states child bride Loretta Barlow Jeffs has a child or not. I lean toward not. I’m repeating myself from the past from comments elsewhere and earlier that claim as fact she does have a child. I’ve seen nothing that proves such a claim.

    Dianabel Barlow is married to Lyle Jeffs. Lyle is a full brother to WSJ.

  619. Spouses of:

    1. bianabel barlow – 5 kids with last name jeffs

    Lyle Jeffs

    2. dora mae barlow – 6 kids with last names allred and/or barlow

    Dora Mae Steed Barlow aka Allred. Married to Edmund Lorin Barlow aka Allred.

    3. emily gail crossfield blackmore – 1 child a blackmore

    Canadian. Married to Brandon Blackmore. Parents of the only Canadian minor determined to be at YFZ and taken by CPS. The daughter was 17 at the time.

    4. esther barlow – 4 kids one named jeffs and the others jessop

    Not positive about this one.

    5. evelyn allred – 1 son named allred

    Married to Thomas James Cox.

    6. grace harker jeffs – 4 kids last named jeffs

    Not certain.

    7. ilene jeffs – 3 kids last named rohbock

    Was married to Ron Rohbock. Sister of WSJ. Reassigned to Wendell Nielsen.

    8. karen johnson – 7 kids last named johnson

    Was possibly married to Carl Johnson. Uncertain about much else.

    9. leona steed – 5 kids last named johnson

    Uncertain.

    10. linda jeffs musser – 1 son named musser

    Legally married and legally divorced from Amos Milton Musser. Sister of WSJ. Had only one minor child at YFZ in April 2008. Some of the documents connect the son to Wendell Nielsen so possibly she was reassigned to him. Is the mother of the adult daughter who was in a Lubbock hospital for dialysis treatment in April 2008. She has several adult children and I believe one of them is the Wendell Musser who was one of WSJ’s houses of hiding caretakers picked up on a DWI in Colorado who subsequently lost his wife and child. I think Linda Jeffs Musser is also the mother of the “Ryan” Musser who married Elissa Walls’ sister Rebecca after Rulon Jeffs died.

    11. linda keate – 2 kids last named keate

    Married to Leland Keate.

    12. loretta jessop – 1 son named jeffs

    See comment above.

    13. lydia ann johnson – 2 kids named johnson

    Was married to Frank Tilton Johnson. Reassigned to Merril Jessop.

    14. mable a. johnson – 1 son named jeffs

    I also have her name as Mabel Annette Jessop. Don’t know who her husband is.

    15. martha barlow – 4 kids named barlow

    Martha Mae Hammon. Was married to Nephi Barlow. Reassigned to Joseph Steed.

    16. namcy barlow – 4 kids named barlow

    Nancy Johnson. Married to Donald Robert “Bob” Barlow.

    17. nancy jane black dockstader – 3 kids named dockstader

    Married to James F. Dockstader.

    18. neola stubbs jessop – 3 girls named jessop

    Unknown.

    19. patricia ann barlow – 2 daughters named barlow

    Married to Donald Robert “Bob” Barlow.

    20. pauline barlow jeffs – 6 kids named jeffs

    Married to Lyle Jeffs.

    21. rebecca steed – 10 kids named steed

    Legal wife of Marion Steed.

    22. sandra jeffs – daughter named nielsen

    Married to Wendell Nielsen. Possibly a daughter of LeRoy and Sally Jeffs.

    23. sandra steed jeffs = son named jeffs

    Unknown.

    24. sarah steed – 6 kids named steed

    Legal wife of David Woodward Steed.

  620. 4. esther barlow – 4 kids one named jeffs and the others jessop

    Not positive about this one.

    Believe she is currently married to WSJ.

    Pretty woman.

  621. Forgot this one.

    Bad boy Raymond Jessop is not Barbara’s son. His mother is Ruth.

  622. Texastwist,
    so glad to see you again. Back at the SLT I always looked forward to your factual based comments

  623. Great to see you Texastwist!

    This thread has gotten too long at over 600 post so I copied your list onto discussion #15.

    Thanks, and see you there!

  624. I love this stuff. I can fill I vthe blanks later today. Texastwist — very good info! Glad to have you here.

  625. Sandra Jeffs married to Wendell Nielson is Warren’s daughter. Annette is her mother.

  626. Patricia Ann Barlow was reassigned — she had been married to Roland Barlow, whobwas kicked out in 2004(?). I thought she has been reassigned to Wendell Nielsen.

  627. Looks like Discussion #15 is live now, they are continuing it there.

  628. Discussion continued at

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/10/09/discussion-16/

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